# Forum More Stuff Owner Builders Forum  Never ending renovation, council problems?

## paddyjoy

So it's been about 2 1/2 years since we got our construction certificate, things have been really slow and I reckon realistically we won't be finished everything on our plans for another 2 1/2 years. 
Are there any issues with the council having such a long running project?

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## phild01

My understanding is the start time is important but the end time doesn't matter.

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## paddyjoy

> My understanding is the start time is important but the end time doesn't matter.

  Thanks I suppose I'll find out in a few years  :Laughing1:

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## jimfish

Down here you have 2 years to complete the project or you need to get another permit.

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## paddyjoy

> Down here you have 2 years to complete the project or you need to get another permit.

  That's pretty strict, if it's like that here we are in big trouble!

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## joynz

Also, check how long your owner builder permit lasts.

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## pharmaboy2

based on the start time not the finish time, but an OB permit runs out earlier so you'd have to reapply .  I keep thinking its 5 years, but check with your own council - should be easy enough to find on their website 
jus checked - in nsw, DA lasts for 5 years, but that's from commencement of works - once commenced, there is no end date

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## paddyjoy

> jus checked - in nsw, DA lasts for 5 years, but that's from commencement of works - once commenced, there is no end date

  Thanks that's good to know!

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## phild01

> based on the start time not the finish time, but an OB permit runs out earlier so you'd have to reapply .  I keep thinking its 5 years, but check with your own council - should be easy enough to find on their website 
> jus checked - in nsw, DA lasts for 5 years, but that's from commencement of works - once commenced, there is no end date

  Can't find any expiration period, though what you might be referring to is that an OB licence can only be obtained once in a 5 year period.  Pretty sure there is no stipulated end period.

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## sol381

you guys are lucky.. up here in qld you have 1 year to complete construction.

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## phild01

> you guys are lucky.. up here in qld you have 1 year to complete construction.

  ... I guess this could lead to rushed sub-standard outcomes.

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## joynz

> ... I guess this could lead to rushed sub-standard outcomes.

  Or it might mean that more people actually finish, with fewer divorces!

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## phild01

> Or it  mean that more people actually finish, with fewer divorces!

   Yeah, that too :Wink:

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## paddyjoy

One year is tough! 
Looks like we could never live in QLD or TAS  :Tongue:

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## sol381

Its a money grab from councils and certifiers but also complaints form many neighbours about work taking too long..forces people to do it quicker..If you hire a builder it can be easily done.. If you do it yourself then its almost impossible..

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## OBBob

My building permit in Victoria had a 'must commence by' and 'must complete by' dates on the building permit. However, I think being a private surveyor they just want insure their inspections aren't drifting out into the future without agreement and some compensation for the changes in the scheduled visits.   
I'm sure these things drift on all the time and you just need to discuss with your council / surveyor.  
My OB certificate doesn't have an expiry date and there's no timing for teh project requested in the application. 
Check your insurance is still current.  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

> you guys are lucky.. up here in qld you have 1 year to complete construction.

  I thought it was 18 months.

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## toooldforthis

as OBBob said - check your insurance cover when renovating.

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## sol381

im doing a reno at the moment ringtail and my certifier informed me after 12 months that my application had expired and if i wanted to renew it.. more money to them obviously.. i havent  but will have to when i want to get a final..i did another reno on my old house about 7-8 years ago and it took 3 years .. no problem.. times have changed. 
as tooold stated.. check house insurance.. as soon as you start a reno your current insurance COULD be void..

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## paddyjoy

Thanks guys insurance is all good as it's covered under our standard ongoing policy. 
Sounds risky letting it expire because what if it didn't get approved second time? Or the bca changed during that period and your house doesn't comply anymore.

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## sol381

i dont think its about getting approved again.,. its about the certifiers extending the timeframe for the build and raping your wallet...from my understanding you can extend your approval once without having to reapply to council..as long as you get footings slab and frame inspected its all ok.. the final inspection is easy.. just to make sure you have all the form 16s in order..

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## OBBob

But you can get done for doing the work without a permit if it's lapsed.  
The biggest incentive I had for completing quickly was that that is when the OB warranty time frame starts ticking. I've had friends that have just not got around to getting the occupation certificate until they thought of selling... during that period they were technically uninsured and after the sale they had a warranty risk for seven years, even when the main work was done five years earlier.

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## sol381

thats why i say get the frame inspected.. you can do whatever you want inside without a permit..owner builders have no liabilty when they sell. there is no 6 1/2 years bsa insurance..buyer beware..

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## OBBob

> thats why i say get the frame inspected.. you can do whatever you want inside without a permit..owner builders have no liabilty when they sell. there is no 6 1/2 years bsa insurance..buyer beware..

  That makes no sense to me... perhaps the rules are different where you are.

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## sol381

if a builder performs work then they have qbcc insurance.. any work done on a house by an owner builder carries NO insurance whatsoever..if you buy a house renovated by an owner builder and something goes wrong.. too bad

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## OBBob

> if a builder performs work then they have qbcc insurance.. any work done on a house by an owner builder carries NO insurance whatsoever..if you buy a house renovated by an owner builder and something goes wrong.. too bad

  Think you'd better check your advice... that certainly is not the case in Victoria. In fact you are the builder, you are the first point of call in relation to a defect and the warranty insurance (compulsory upon sale within the period) only servers to protect the buyer in the case of your death or bankruptcy. Said period commences upon issue of the occupancy certificate.  
Edit... but as I say maybe Queensland is different. If be surprised though.

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## OBBob

Wow,  so after a bit of reading Queensland appears to be very different. You need to provide a formal Notice to the buyer prior to contract of sale, not doing so results in a deemed warranty. That's very different to other states.  
It does say you can be fined without a current permit though.  
Anyway, I think NSW is closer to Victoria legislation... but the door jambs are different so who knows!

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## sol381

indeed.. you do need to let prospective buyers know that the reno was done by an owner builder if you are looking to sell within 6  years...all good mate.. it should certainly be the case up here...

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## Vil

Do private certifiers take just as long time to release drawings as councils do? You guys are scaring me with some phenomenal waiting periods.

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## paddyjoy

> Do private certifiers take just as long time to release drawings as councils do? You guys are scaring me with some phenomenal waiting periods.

  Here in NSW they don't really have anything to do with the drawings, they just turn up, kick the tyres, check a few random details, sign the form and then you're done.

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## paddyjoy

> I've had friends that have just not got around to getting the occupation certificate until they thought of selling... during that period they were technically uninsured and after the sale they had a warranty risk for seven years, even when the main work was done five years earlier.

  What was the reason for them not being insured? Will some insurance companies not pay out if you are renovating?

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## OBBob

> What was the reason for them not being insured? Will some insurance companies not pay out if you are renovating?

  In Victoria you really need separate insurance for your OB work. Also, technically you shouldn't be living in a house that doesn't have an occupancy certificate (you'd argue that depends on the extent of the work). Again, these things seem to vary state to state and I'm getting the impression that Victoria is the most stringent.  :Frown:

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## r3nov8or

In VIC a house only gets a certificate of occupancy once. After that a renovation is finalised with a certificate of completion. You can live in it during the renovation, but do check your insurance.

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## OBBob

> In VIC a house only gets a certificate of occupancy once. After that a renovation is finalised with a certificate of completion. You can live in it during the renovation, but do check your insurance.

  Sorry, dodgy terminology in my part. Mine particularly stated conditions for occupation ... but anyway, the main point was really around the insurance.

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## johnstonfencing

Hello All, 
Slight hijack of thread but on the topic being discussed...insurance! 
We have just started our owner builder project and while putting all my focus into getting the building permit, our insurance completely slipped my mind until reading this thread!
We are with aami and with abit of investigating (still to ring them) I don't believe we are covered any longer.
Anyone have any suggestions of insurance companies that do provide building/contents coverage whilst renovating/extending? 
Cheers 
Craig

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## phild01

Aon might be able to broker insurance for this.  The insurance aspect has me spooked as well.  I think normal insurance will be okay as long as it is in a lock-up state and you let them know what is outstanding.

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## paddyjoy

> I don't believe we are covered any longer.

  The key here is how you define "not covered". We are with the NRMA and while renovating we are covered for loss and damage that isn't caused by openings created in the buildings due to renovations, this is the fine print:   

> Not covered for
> - loss or damage caused by water which enters your home through any tarpaulins or fixings set up while youre renovating or altering your home
> - water entering your home through an opening made for the purpose of alterations, additions, renovations or repairs

  On the flip side they do cover building materials on site   

> Covered for
> if youre renovating or altering your home and a listed event causes loss or damage to your building materials at your site.

  When we looked at owner builder insurance a lot of the policies where a sham and didn't cover anything additional to our current home and contents insurance. 
My advice is to think about the activities you will be doing during your reno and the events you want to be covered for. For us the key things were:
Public liability - To cover random members of the public, so if for example your scaffolding collapses onto the street and injures someone, or the postie steps on a rusty nail. Some home and contents policies already include public liability during renovation.
Family and friends helping with renovation - This is one to be really careful with because as far as I remember no policy, not even the expensive owner builder policies will cover you if one of your mates or family falls off a ladder or similar while helping you. This is one of the main reasons why I don't like mates/family helping out any more, it's not worth it.
Similar to the above none of the policies seem to cover any injury to yourself while doing renovation work so this is something else to watch out for. 
Also any licensed trade should have insurance to cover themselves. 
Things may have changed in the last few years but this is how I remember it when investigating.

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## OBBob

I think I was with AAMI last time (been a while though) and they were ok to cover existing if you were living it and advised them. I then got an add on insurance for the actual extension OB works.

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## phild01

> Family and friends helping with renovation - This is one to be really careful with because as far as I remember no policy, not even the expensive owner builder policies will cover you if one of your mates or family falls off a ladder or similar while helping you. This is one of the main reasons why I don't like mates/family helping out any more, it's not worth it.

   I would always have this concern too, and try to avoid help as much as I can.  If I do need help then the way I do work completely changes making sure everything is clear and safe.  Not my normal way of doing things!  :Blush7:

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## paddyjoy

> Not my normal way of doing things!

   Ha ha, so you swap the safety thongs for safety boots?

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## OBBob

Lol

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## phild01

I once took a nail in my foot after jumping down off a work table.  The 2" nail was sticking out of a board lying around.  Went pale, lifted my foot and the board was nailed to my foot.  Came out easily as I was wearing thongs.  From that day on I don't leave nails sticking out of timber and the thongs continue to serve me well.
...but I do leave the grinder guards on  :Biggrin:

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## johnstonfencing

> I think I was with AAMI last time (been a while though) and they were ok to cover existing if you were living it and advised them. I then got an add on insurance for the actual extension OB works.

  Thanks all for you responses and experiences. 
As far as our existing AAMI policy I am only going by what I read on their website.  Now that it's business hours I'll give them a call and discuss! 
Cheers

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## Prados

> So it's been about 2 1/2 years since we got our construction certificate, things have been really slow and I reckon realistically we won't be finished everything on our plans for another 2 1/2 years. 
> Are there any issues with the council having such a long running project?

  *Never...  never ending.... but it's a good experience...* 
Started 3 years ago and...  last February I finished our outdoor area, which is 25sq.m. patio....    after that on 29th of July last year (2015) we finally started moving and we did a pour of footings (Did I mention that it took me a few month to do all trenches, membrane and reo?... yeah, all by 2 hands, no joking!) 
Now I  am struggling to finish my trusses... 3 month gone and I am still up on my roof... installing bits and peaces... (Did I mention that my longest trusses are ~13-14m long including overhangs? I got 7 of them... and some not so long around 7-8m... and again 2 hands only, but this time my wife gave me a hand to lift them up a little bit...) 
Got approved extension of time from my council... paid $96.50 for another 1 year... 
PS
our extension is approx. 150sq.m. to an existing 100sq.m brick veneer house + 25sq.m patio (polycarb roof) and also I am actually working, not just doing my extension...  :Wink: )

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## paddyjoy

> *Never...  never ending.... but it's a good experience...* 
> Started 3 years ago and...  last February I finished our outdoor area, which is 25sq.m. patio....    after that on 29th of July last year (2015) we finally started moving and we did a pour of footings (Did I mention that it took me a few month to do all trenches, membrane and reo?... yeah, all by 2 hands, no joking!) 
> Now I  am struggling to finish my trusses... 3 month gone and I am still up on my roof... installing bits and peaces... (Did I mention that my longest trusses are ~13-14m long including overhangs? I got 7 of them... and some not so long around 7-8m... and again 2 hands only, but this time my wife gave me a hand to lift them up a little bit...) 
> Got approved extension of time from my council... paid $96.50 for another 1 year... 
> PS
> our extension is approx. 150sq.m. to an existing 100sq.m brick veneer house + 25sq.m patio (polycarb roof) and also I am actually working, not just doing my extension... )

  I feel your pain, it's so hard getting stuff done when you have a day job also. I'm lucky if I get one hour of work done in the evenings and half of the weekends are taken up with kids stuff  :Doh:

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## Spottiswoode

> I feel your pain, it's so hard getting stuff done when you have a day job also. I'm lucky if I get one hour of work done in the evenings and half of the weekends are taken up with kids stuff

  Ditto. Although mine has only been going since August. I got one room to habitable during the Christmas break in about 7 days to strip, modify framing, repair floor, re-plaster and paint. The next one has been going for 3 weeks with another couple to go, so far now we are back to school/work and after school activities etc. I had thought initially it may take around 6 months.. :No: . Previously I've been able to do work after the kids go to bed and was getting quite good at being a midnight handyman, but hard to do that when I'm working on their bedrooms.

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## paddyjoy

> Ditto. Although mine has only been going since August. I got one room to habitable during the Christmas break in about 7 days to strip, modify framing, repair floor, re-plaster and paint. The next one has been going for 3 weeks with another couple to go, so far now we are back to school/work and after school activities etc. I had thought initially it may take around 6 months... Previously I've been able to do work after the kids go to bed and was getting quite good at being a midnight handyman, but hard to do that when I'm working on their bedrooms.

  d 
7 days isn't bad for one complete room, I would be pretty happy with that!

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## Spottiswoode

> d 
> 7 days isn't bad for one complete room, I would be pretty happy with that!

  Not quite complete, still got skirts, arcs and wardrobe install to complete. At least junior is back in for now though. Fairly worn out after it too!

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