# Forum Home Renovation Roofing  Sealing valley gutters

## notgreg

Hi all, 
My house was built 3 years ago.  The valley gutters are leaking (as well as the roof gutters - but that is another thread) and I want to seal them. 
We had the 1 in a 25 year hail storm 2 months a go.  The gutters filled with ice, (and half way up the roof line) and the rain come in and has ruined our ceiling.  Insurance will fix the result, not the cause, unfortunately. 
I have a tiled roof with a 22.5 degree pitch (I think).  I would like to seal the valley gutters between the tiles. 
Something like this: 
 )     (
(____) 
(my ASCII art isn't that good) - Argh!! - Stupid editor, wont allow multiple spaces.  Mods, please fix and allow this!!! (picture the 2 )('s joining the other 2 ()'s 
And then seal it between the top lip and the tiles. 
I have found a site on the web which has such a product.  A PVC plastic which sits on top of the gutters and protects them.  A fantastic product!  But the install wont install it in my valley gutters as he thinks all i need is flushing extenters about 2 metres up on the roof from the gutters. 
I have some questions.  Do you think: 
1. The PVC installer is correct.
2. My solution would work.
3. Your options for sealing my valley gutters. 
The above ASCII art would be something like the existing tin, with a slight v in it, and then corregatetdly cut, to suit the corregations of the tiles.  The sealed some how. 
What do you think?

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## EricTam

What about some like a piece of gutter guard around the house and valley? Check out some like this. The Leaf Man Gutter Guard from BlueScope Colorbond Zinculume Steel.

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## woodbe

> I have a tiled roof with a 22.5 degree pitch (I think).  I would like to seal the valley gutters between the tiles.

  So if I understand your description correctly, you want to gasket the edge of the tiles to the valley gutter? 
The problem with a hail overload on a gutter is that the flow in the gutter is stopped with a hailstone/water slurry. It then fills and overflows. So if you gasket the tiles to the gutter and it overflows, where is the water going to go?  
Do you have a link for this pvc product you are talking about? 
Personally, I think the primary solution for a problem valley gutter is to extend the flashing well up the roof combined with regular inspections to make sure the gutter is clear and intact. This is insurance in case anything else you might do fails. 
woodbe.

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## notgreg

Hi woodbe, 
Here's the link:  Guttsa - Industrial Gutter Reliners 
Have a look at the gallery as well. 
I don't want to gasket the tiles to the gutters.  Just gasket the tiles to the valley gutters. 
I want to seal the valley gutters, the normal house gutters are a separate, but related problem.  I will be replacing my inefficient OG profile gutters with OG big one with overflow slits in them.  Hopefully, in a big down poor, my gutters wont overflow into the eves, and then into house.  Other options are to cut big holes in my gutters, and also in the eves, to stop water every entering the house... 
Back to the valley gutters. 
I understand your solution to extend the flashing, but you are relying on a known factor of that during a storm the water will not go past the flashing.  Yes, the probability is low, but I want it to be 0. 
Sealing the valley gutters is the only solution that I can see.  Do you know what I mean?

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## woodbe

> Hi woodbe, 
> Here's the link:  Guttsa - Industrial Gutter Reliners 
> Have a look at the gallery as well. 
> I don't want to gasket the tiles to the gutters.  Just gasket the tiles to the valley gutters. 
> I want to seal the valley gutters, the normal house gutters are a separate, but related problem.  I will be replacing my inefficient OG profile gutters with OG big one with overflow slits in them.  Hopefully, in a big down poor, my gutters wont overflow into the eves, and then into house.  Other options are to cut big holes in my gutters, and also in the eves, to stop water every entering the house... 
> Back to the valley gutters. 
> I understand your solution to extend the flashing, but you are relying on a known factor of that during a storm the water will not go past the flashing.  Yes, the probability is low, but I want it to be 0. 
> Sealing the valley gutters is the only solution that I can see.  Do you know what I mean?

  Ok, had a look. I might have misunderstood your problem, because I cannot see how Guttsa would help with a valley gutter on a tiled roof. 
Guttsa looks great for the problem of pooled water rusting out gutters. It doesn't solve the underlying problem, just removes contact betwwen the steel gutter and the water, eliminating rust. 
What it doesn't do at all, is to eliminate the problem where the gutter overflows due to blockage. Once the water runs over the top of the gutter, it's going to find any available hole to leak through. This will be any blemish in the silicone seal between the guttsa and the tiles, and then every join between tiles. It's going to be hard to get an effective seal between the guttsa and the underside of the tiles, and the tiles natural movement will cause problems for that seal down the track. Remember that with storm events, hail and rain, we often get wind that blows water up under the roof as well. Right now, it's gusting over 40kph outside at our place, and this isn't a storm. 
Anyway, the point is that a wide flashing is a safety net for water that gets over the top of your valley gutter. If your gutter is rusting and leaking, then its a different problem. 
Have you got a photo of your valley gutters? 
For the other gutters, you just need to make sure that the facia side of the gutter is the highest point - that way when the gutter overflows for whatever reason the water flows outside, not inside. Some people cut the end out of the gutter past the downpipe also, as an overflow. 
woodbe.

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## SilentButDeadly

> I have some questions.  Do you think: 
> 1. The PVC installer is correct.
> 2. My solution would work.
> 3. Your options for sealing my valley gutters.

  1. Yes
2. No
3. You can't. If you do you'll actually reduce their capacity.  In extreme circumstances, water can then overflow the sealed tile/valley connection, go up into the unsealed tile joins and fall well behind the valley....straight into the roof space.   
Wider flashings with a higher turn-up at the edge is the only option I can see.  The other option is to change your gutter system to a half round SA style (from Fielders) that stands off the fascia about 5mm.  It is much higher capacity than OG and if it does block then the standoff between the gutter and fascia prevents the water from flowing back into the eaves.  Also if the gutter is set down from the top edge of the fascia then water can not flow back into the eaves...

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## notgreg

> Ok, had a look. I might have misunderstood your problem, because I cannot see how Guttsa would help with a valley gutter on a tiled roof. 
> Guttsa looks great for the problem of pooled water rusting out gutters. It doesn't solve the underlying problem, just removes contact betwwen the steel gutter and the water, eliminating rust.

  Probably because you're seeing it the way the manufacturer intended  :Smilie: 
I intend to extend the edges so that they come up and over, onto the tile, and then seal from there, if I can.   

> What it doesn't do at all, is to eliminate the problem where the gutter overflows due to blockage. Once the water runs over the top of the gutter, it's going to find any available hole to leak through. This will be any blemish in the silicone seal between the guttsa and the tiles, and then every join between tiles. It's going to be hard to get an effective seal between the guttsa and the underside of the tiles, and the tiles natural movement will cause problems for that seal down the track. Remember that with storm events, hail and rain, we often get wind that blows water up under the roof as well. Right now, it's gusting over 40kph outside at our place, and this isn't a storm.

  I understand.  But with my method, any blockage will cause the water to go up and back onto the tile and find another way down the roof.  True, some may be blown under the tiles, but i have that problem all over my roof, not just near the valley gutters.   

> Anyway, the point is that a wide flashing is a safety net for water that gets over the top of your valley gutter. If your gutter is rusting and leaking, then its a different problem. 
> Have you got a photo of your valley gutters?

  Better, I have video  :Smilie: .  It will take me a while to transfer it to my web server.  I'll create some stills from the video as well.   

> For the other gutters, you just need to make sure that the facia side of the gutter is the highest point - that way when the gutter overflows for whatever reason the water flows outside, not inside. Some people cut the end out of the gutter past the downpipe also, as an overflow. 
> woodbe.

  Yes, that is a potential solution for the other gutters.  Thankx.

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## Black Cat

In north America they run a lead down under the gutter that is heated. Ice and snow building up in the gutter is melted rapidly so that there is no dam effect. In a sudden hail storm the effectiveness of this would be limited, but if, as here, the snow and hail accumulate slowly then it (should) work well. However preventing overflow altogether does require that you increase the size of the 'returns' that extend under the tiles. Alternately, increase the fall slightly so material does not accumulate so rapidly. 
I quite like the gutter-guard solution proposed above as it will retain the solids above the actual flow in the gutter, allowing them to melt slowly into the gutter and not dam it. Might be worth investigating further (am still to tackle my internal gutter which leaks whenever it snows, but mainly because it is rusted out).

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## ringtail

I know its not everyones cup of tea, but I removed my soffit linings because I like the expoed rafter look. Solves the problem and vents the roof space better.

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## notgreg

Pics and video as requested.  Valley Gutters 
It's a simple web page.  My upload is only 200Kb/s, and the jpg images are full size, so it will take a while to download, sorry.  Start with the last 5, (except the last one) for some close ups of the gaps. 
When you watch the video, that was a light shower, and for the lack of a better word, my gutters are perfect.  They perform as advertised.  However, they are not suitable for my area of Adelaide, as we get quite a few storms here, and so I've had gutter problems every year since day 1. 
The last pic is of the ice from the hail which dripped through my valley gutters and onto my gyprock ceiling.  My electircian pulled that one out after he fixed the lights.  This is why I want to seal my valley gutters.  You may say that this hail was once in 25 years, but I don't want to say that.  It hailed the next week, just not as much.

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## woodbe

Cool. 
My response is that I think you're in for a world of pain to get that PVC gutter sealer to work. Sealing it to those tiles is going to be a nightmare. On the other hand, lifting the tiles and running the flashing well up the roof is an easy fix, one that the roof plumber will understand and support and will also charge a fair price for. If he doesn't want to do the PVC thing, what is he going to say when there are problems? 
Those other gutters are just wrong. Look at how high the outer face is. Driven by misplaced aesthetics - they think people don't want to see the edge of the roof or something, but they forget that the roof is higher than people, so you won't see it anyway. There is also too little space between the edge of the tiles and the outside of the gutter - how are you supposed to clean the gutter? 
This is the sort of gutter I would suggest: Link to half round gutter page 
Note that it is often not easy to find a gutter profile where the outer edge is lower than the inner edge. You can fix this at install time by mounting it lower on the facia so that the outer edge is lower than the top of the facia. If you use external brackets, cleaning the gutter is a breeze and there is less for leaves and junk to hook up on and cause a blockage. The full half round also stands off the facia slightly as SBD mentions so this is an added bonus when the downpipes clog and the gutter overflows. 
woodbe.

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## notgreg

> Cool. 
> My response is that I think you're in for a world of pain to get that PVC gutter sealer to work. Sealing it to those tiles is going to be a nightmare. On the other hand, lifting the tiles and running the flashing well up the roof is an easy fix, one that the roof plumber will understand and support and will also charge a fair price for. If he doesn't want to do the PVC thing, what is he going to say when there are problems?

  Agreed.   

> Those other gutters are just wrong. Look at how high the outer face is. Driven by misplaced aesthetics - they think people don't want to see the edge of the roof or something, but they forget that the roof is higher than people, so you won't see it anyway. There is also too little space between the edge of the tiles and the outside of the gutter - how are you supposed to clean the gutter? 
> This is the sort of gutter I would suggest: Link to half round gutter page 
> Note that it is often not easy to find a gutter profile where the outer edge is lower than the inner edge. You can fix this at install time by mounting it lower on the facia so that the outer edge is lower than the top of the facia. If you use external brackets, cleaning the gutter is a breeze and there is less for leaves and junk to hook up on and cause a blockage. The full half round also stands off the facia slightly as SBD mentions so this is an added bonus when the downpipes clog and the gutter overflows. 
> woodbe.

  I was thinking of these ones:  Stratco OG Big One Gutter - square gutter, Smoothline round and half round gutters, OG gutter, Quad gutters, eaves gutter 
(The 600) 
The half round ones are good, but they don't carry as much water by volume as the Big One.  Hopefully, the slits will handle the overflow. 
Thankx for your advice.  It looks like the only thing that anyone will do for me is to install the flashing extension, and then i just have to prey each time in rains.  Great, no piece of mind.

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## woodbe

I downloaded another photo: (guttergap1.jpg) after I had posted. (you should resize these) I've included a smaller version in this post for you. 
What sort of slack gutter is this? I don't think I've ever seen a gutter with what looks like an open join in the crease? Is this one of the valley gutters that was doing the leaking?   
woodbe.

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## woodbe

> The half round ones are good, but they don't carry as much water by volume as the Big One.  Hopefully, the slits will handle the overflow.

  That 600 would help, could be overkill  :Smilie:  
Whatever gets fitted, explain to the roofer what you want (no water ingress into the building from overflow) and test it before you pay up. Clog the downpipes and overfill it with water. Doesn't look like you suffer from a lot of leaves, so that's a bonus. 
woodbe.

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## notgreg

> That 600 would help, could be overkill

  Yes, I'd rather over kill then over flow  :Smilie:    

> Whatever gets fitted, explain to the roofer what you want (no water ingress into the building from overflow) and test it before you pay up. Clog the downpipes and overfill it with water. Doesn't look like you suffer from a lot of leaves, so that's a bonus. 
> woodbe.

  Yes, I'll definitely do a test.  And I'll replace my 75mm square down pipes with 90mm round ones.  Should have got those to start with  :Frown:  
As for the pic above, there are no gaps in the valley metal.  It's solid all the way through.  The valley's only leak when they are blocked with ice.

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## manchild

Here is a simple solution we use with great succes.

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## Black Cat

That looks like a useful product. But how does it go when you are collecting potable water off your roof?

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