# Forum Home Renovation Cladding  Ceiling cladding and batten idea's

## peersy

Hi there, 
I'm about to start a new project before summer arrives... Insulating this ceiling with two layers of Concertina Foil Batts. 
My main dilemma is ceiling lining panels and batten system. 
For panels was thinking Easypanel easyVJ panels which are mdf. Total cost a tad over $1000 for all the panels from bunnings. Haven't checked elsewhere yet but will do, just a ballpark figure. 
Existing Oregon beam's are 1200 centres so I need to batten at 450 or so centres.
Initially thought timber but even merchant pine will be pretty expensive. 
Steel battens seem well priced but I need to check the spans. 
Any idea's or suggestions for paneling or battens? 
Total area is about 60m2, main room length 6.1m and a small room behind it too same roof build.         
P.S. yes this is my man cave.
Deer, Barramundi, Balcony, Plumbed wet bar, Projector screen, New bathroom and toilet also...

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## Uncle Bob

> Plumbed wet bar, Projector screen

  You shouldn't have trouble finding some helpers  :Wink:

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## OBBob

You can certainly get that VJ sheeting cheaper than Bunnings. I got mine from Robot Trading but it was some time ago. It seems to be a lot cheaper in QLD ... not sure if they'd do it with freight given you need a reasonable amount.  
Looks like an interesting space you have there.  :Smilie:

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## peersy

Haha no shortage of helpers!
Robot building supplies came back $70 cheaper. 
Top hat steel Battens were about $550. 
Gotta get more quotes

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## r3nov8or

I'm wondering why you would double up on concertina foil batts? Also how will you span 1200, do they come that wide these days?

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## OBBob

Yes, there looks to be a fair depth there. You'd get better performance from normal batts I would have though.

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## r3nov8or

To clarify, I think concertina foil batts are excellent, so much so that I doubt doubling up will achieve much, and they aren't particularly cheap either...

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## peersy

Thanks for your comments guys. 
I am doubling up the concertina's because the manufacturer recommends so both in their technical documents and when I discussed my scenario over the phone. 
I did think of one layer foil batts and one layer glass or wool batts but my main concern is summer heat. Two layers of foil will stop pretty much all vertical summer ingress... I hope!
The existing foil sarking above the strammit is difficult to determine. 
It's so hot up there in summer that you can't stay there for any extended time. Plus all the heat radiates downstairs. 
Over time I'll re plaster the walls after insulating them too. 
Regarding the ceiling lining, I've contacted Geelong sheet metal and they manufacture a panel system that is about 150-200mm wide and screws directly to the existing rafters, also comes pre painted in a choice of 25 different colours. Getting a price this week

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## peersy

Will either batten perpendicular inside main rafters at 600 centres or staple two foil batts together to make a 1200 special and support the foil with two straps of thin polyester webbing stapled taut.
Foil running length ways down the rafters.
Webbing is similar to seatbelt material. 
What do you think?

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## OBBob

Sounds an interesting system, is noise a consideration if it's metal? Have you considered some sort of airflow system to assist with that heat? We have a cathedral ceiling and the installation of evaporative cooling helped immensely ... even just using it in fan mode.

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## OBBob

> Webbing is similar to seatbelt material. 
> What do you think?

  Can you just use the blue duct hanging tape? May be cheaper?

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## peersy

> Can you just use the blue duct hanging tape? May be cheaper?

  Maybe, I shall check it out. 
Polyester webbing that I've found is 40 cents per metre.
And uv/heat stable. 
I hadn't thought about the noise, it could be an issue when it rains.... Might be very loud!

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## r3nov8or

> Will either batten perpendicular inside main rafters at 600 centres or staple two foil batts together to make a 1200 special and support the foil with two straps of thin polyester webbing stapled taut.
> Foil running length ways down the rafters.
> Webbing is similar to seatbelt material. 
> What do you think?

  The foil batts are very light, so you won't need a seatbelt type webbing. I'd probably just use builders string line. Might need to experiment with the stapling technique/pattern to ensure it doesn't slip out of the staple. You could even drill a small hole in the internal rafters and thread it through the full distance, and staple the ends (several times pulling, the string in a zigzag after each staple).

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## Bloss

Cost can be a concern, but I have used foam panels to insulate cathedral ceilings like this Foilboard® Ceiling Insulation - Insulated Roofing Panels. Worth looking at the ICANZA manual in the Library and the online ICANZ Handbook Part 2 Installation or Downloads

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## peersy

> Cost can be a concern, but I have used foam panels to insulate cathedral ceilings like this Foilboard® Ceiling Insulation - Insulated Roofing Panels. Worth looking at the ICANZA manual in the Library and the online ICANZ Handbook Part 2 Installation or Downloads

  Thanks bloss.
Had already decided and purchased the concertina's and happy with the properties for summer. likely I'll use VJ panels to clad the ceiling and maybe also use them elsewhere in the house in the future.
I'll batten across the 1200 spacing with steel top hats from the green shed, they have best price by more than half price and it's a great product. 
Won't be long till I get started. Maybe.

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## phild01

> You'd get better performance from normal batts I would have though.

  +1

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## r3nov8or

> You'd get better performance from normal batts I would have though.

   what do you consider to be a 'normal' batt?

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## OBBob

I meant the classic pink batt. Although I have to say that I have since discovered the foil batts have a pretty good rating.  Logically I can't quite convince myself that foil would be as good as filling all that space between the rafters with something fluffy.

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## phild01

glass wool.

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## peersy

Would you send your child down the street in summer on a hot day dressed in a glass woolen jumper or reflective foil jumper?

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## OBBob

Ha ha... interesting perspective,  although I think the wool performance differs when it's used in an enclosed space,  as opposed to open air.   
They'd certainly be itchy in the wool!

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## r3nov8or

Bulk batts without reflective foil would be bad for summer comfort. Peersy had made a great choice imho

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## phild01

Reflective foil in combination with batts. If there was sarking already I would go with batts.

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## John2b

> Reflective foil in combination with batts. If there was sarking already I would go with batts.

  +1. There is almost zero benefit from the second layer of foil batts for summer heat rejection unless the first layer was severely badly installed. Foil batts + bulk batts will outperform double foil batts in summer unless the installation is severely cocked up. This is especially true for a steeply raked roof. I have put double radiant barriers in a shallow flat roof, but still have bulk insulation or it would be unlivable in winter. Don't you want better heat retention in winter being in Melbourne? Bulk batts will greatly outperform double foil batts in winter.

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## peersy

> +1. There is almost zero benefit from the second layer of foil batts for summer heat rejection unless the first layer was severely badly installed. Foil batts + bulk batts will outperform double foil batts in summer unless the installation is severely cocked up. This is especially true for a steeply raked roof. I have put double radiant barriers in a shallow flat roof, but still have bulk insulation or it would be unlivable in winter. Don't you want better heat retention in winter being in Melbourne? Bulk batts will greatly outperform double foil batts in winter.

  Thanks, winter I'm not so worried about. I may install some bulk insulation between the foil and new ceiling lining, I'll think about it.
Winter isn't really an issue, very liveable and all the bedrooms, dining, kitchen and main living room are downstairs. Upstairs is just this rumpus room, bathroom, and a small study.
Summer is atrocious and all the heat radiates downwards into the ground level rooms. it feels like the upstairs level is a hot box. 
Melbourne is not that cold, seriously come on winter here is quite mild. You can always put extra clothes on and blankets to sleep nicely.
Summer 40 deg plus, you can take all your clothes off it won't really help the situation!  
I'm still struggling to find panels, really not wanting to plaster this ceiling.
This is what I was thinking  http://www.easycraft.com.au/products/3/easyvj
Nowhere is cheaper than bunnings, strange... Other places are cheaper but it's plywood groove unpainted

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## John2b

With an upstairs room, the ceiling/roof insulation could be perfect but you will still have a hotbox upstairs for two reasons: the upper level walls and windows are much more exposed than walls at ground level, suffering from heat glancing off neighbours roofs as well, and the walls are usually lightweight (i.e. poor thermal barriers); and secondly hot air rises - all of the heat load from appliances, lighting _and_ people inside both ground and upper floors will rise to the top level, plus all of the heat energy that comes inside through the building envelope through lower level walls, floor, windows and air gaps will rise to the top level. The greater part of your apparent heat problem is probably not through the roof at all... 
At the very least you need to treat the upper level walls like you would the ceilings, with a reflective foil barrier and r3.5+ bulk insulation, double glazing with thermal breaks and blinds (preferably outside) and/or reflective window film/e-glass.

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## r3nov8or

Yep, John2b, and if what you say is correct, bulk insulation upstairs will do a great job of retaining all that heat coming from downstairs... i.e. could make peersy's summer heat problem worse. 
"reflective window film/e-glass." Renshade has a solution for that too!

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## John2b

> Yep, John2b, and if what you say is correct, bulk insulation upstairs will do a great job of retaining all that heat coming from downstairs... i.e. could make peersy's summer heat problem worse.

  No, it won't make it worse, unless inside downstairs is hotter than outside... :Shock:

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## r3nov8or

Go for it peersy. Others here can be a bit old school...

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## phild01

I have Foil over bulk in my cathedral ceiling and it does a great job on the hot days.  The batts minimise tile heat transfer.  Without the batts the outside heat would make the house hotter.   You need both for the different types of heat transfer.  I am in Sydney and I know my house would be unbearable in Melbourne without batts and especially in Winter.

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## peersy

Thank you everyone for your advice. My cathedral ceiling is certainly getting two layers of concertina's and should have enough space for bulk fill batts at the lowest level, I should have nearly 100mm after an air gap between second concertina and cladding

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## John2b

You would be better off deleting the second concertina and using thicker bulk fill or just making sure everything is tickety-boo. The second layer of concertina batts will not lighten the heat load, just lighten your wallet, and if it means less bulk fill or more compacted bulk fill, it will actually worsen the insulation performance! Not how I would choose to spend money...

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## phild01

Do keep in mind that you will always have a temperature differential between floor and roof levels.  I have put a lower level in under my house and amazed how the temperature changes between the two levels.  In winter where my heated living space is, downstairs remains unheated.  In summer, downstairs is like air-conditioning.  It's just how air stabilises in a tall open spaces.

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## peersy

Cool no worries thanks guys. 
Some good advice.
Over time I'll remove the interior plaster/timber walls and insulate, as John2b mentioned there is heaps of heat transfer there. I've already bought some Renshade so I'll try it on the big window upstairs. 
Watching a t.v. show up here now on the projector  :Biggrin:

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## Uncle Bob

> Watching a t.v. show up here now on the projector

   :2thumbsup:

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## cas

Find some manufacturers of the VJ sheets. Unless Bunnings have dropped their prices, I was saving about $25 per sheet buying direct. Customer service was also a lot better than Bunnings but that's expected i guess.

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