# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Downlighter Alternatives

## KerryF

Hi there  :Smilie:  
We're going through the process of renovating our home, which we bought at the end of 2009.  It's around 60 years old and is a red gum hill cottage situated in the Dandenongs. 
One of the first things we want to do is replace the CFL downlighters that the previous owners installed throughout half the house (open plan kitchen-living area and small hallway).  The reason is that there are a total of 10 and that seems to be overkill for the space (4x12m roughly) they are so inefficient seeming to generate more heat than light, they cast shadows over the kitchen benches, they're not really in keeping with the character of the house AND (not least) we want to install insulation. 
We've looked at just replacing the CFLs with LEDs, but the cost for 10 lights is a little off-putting, plus we'd still have the issue with insulation.  Halogen is obviously out for that reason. 
So, it would seem we need to remove and replace the downlighters with something else... :Sad3:  
For the kitchen, we aim to replace the units in the near(ish) future, so don't want to do underunit lighting for the moment, therefore we need something directional, that will give bright, clean, light, no shadows and will hopefully not look too crap. 
As it's open plan, the living room lights need to be the same so we don't have a jarring difference in styles.  Also, we want to be able to continue using dimmers in both rooms, but especially the living area (another reason why LEDs are not suitable at the mo). 
So, can anyone recommend a suitable replacement bearing in mind all the above points? 
Also, we do all our own work (unless a licenced sparky is required) so it would need to be something that we could do fairly quickly, but we're more than happy to turn our hand to something more difficult if it will give us what we want. 
Bearing that in mind and that we will probably be replacing the downlighters, what work is there for a sparky to actually do in this case?  Is it simply a case of disconnecting them and then we can remove them, or is there more to it?   
Thanks in advance  :Smilie:

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## johnc

How many watts per light and do you have transformers i.e. 12V or 240V lights? you might have a spare globe that gives a clue. Also do you know what size cut out holes you have?

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## KerryF

Well....    :Blush7:  
It turns out I misheard my DH last night (must have been that 3rd glass of wine) and we actually already have halogen ones (funny because I was looking at them today when writing my OP and was thinking they looked more like halogens)!   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  
We've had one pop since we moved in and twice we've replaced that globe to have it pop again, but I didn't do the buying...  I need to check with DH what voltage they are, but they each have an individual transformer if that would make it more obvious? 
Also, the cut outs are around the 6cm mark (based on measurements from below and they have an additional 2cm of edging where the housing sits flush against the ceiling). 
We're considering GU10 CFL spotlights for the kitchen, but I've seen on lightingpro that they don't have much light output... obviously not ideal for the kitchen.  Plus, my DH was advised that these can't be fitted to a dimmer, so we would end up with different lights in the kitchen to livingroom.

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## KerryF

They're definitely 12v and have 50w globes :Smilie:

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## johnc

We pulled ours out and replaced them with a mix of LED and (compact) CFL's. The LEDs are 9w (3x3) and we used them in passage and entry and have been happy with the result. The CFL's have gone in kitchen, living, there has been a big drop in the power bill and they have been in two years without a blown globe. The CFL's are 11w GU10's so no energy guzzling transformer. The light is not quite as bright but adequate, and they take awhile to come to full power. The LEDS (with transformer) are faster but again not quite as bright. It looks as though we will get full cost recovery in about three years, so I wonder how much power the transformers did draw.  
You do have an alternative and that is the larger fluoro downlights, there are a number in the market and the light output is very good in comparison. We have ripped out all dimmers in the house, they didn't get used and became a pain with the better energy efficient globes.

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## chalkyt

We have been through much the same exercise, and as you can see from the other replies, the short answer seems to be that there is no short answer. 
All of the new technologies currently have some downside such as poor colour temperature, no "throw", not dimmable, slow turn on etc. They work, but sometimes not all that well. The various manufacturers are all beavering away, but so far in my view success has been limited. 
However... the good news! I have come across a "low energy" 12V MR16 Halogen (30W instead of 50W for the same light output) and am quite happy with them. This might be a good interim solution for you since they just replace your existing lamps with no need to change the fittings. They are Lucci brand from Beacon Lighting (made in China so this might well be a Beacon house brand). There could be other brands around but I suspect that you will have to go to a specialist lighting outlet to find them. 
The other thing that I have found is that generally, the premium brands (Philips, Sylvania, etc) do last longer than the no-brand el-cheapos from China via Bunnings etc. 
If your transformers are the old conventional type, they will consume around 10W each. However if you have electronic transformers, they are designed to be very efficient at converting the 240V input to 12V output, so there should be only a small amount of heat generated (if any) and so little "wasted" power (generally only 2-4 watts). 
Might be worth checking what you have. They are usually marked "electronic" somewhere. If they are not electronic, then replacement might fit with your plans also. Give Google a try for sources at the right price.  
Good luck with your mission  :2thumbsup:

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## johnc

Just following on from Chalkyt, the older energy guzzling iron transformers tend to be black plastic and heavy, the newer electronic type tend to be whiteish plastic and about one third the size and light.

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## SilentButDeadly

Bin the halogen things.... 
Where the down lights are performing as task based lights then change them for 240V GU10 fittings (under $20 per fitting) which gets rid of the transformer and use either good quality CFL globes or the 30w GU10 halogen with a wide angle light dispersion, based on personal preference.  
Where the down lights are providing no task based service....dispense with them entirely.  Having done (still doing) the small cottage reno....upwards pointing wall lights are the answer for dispersed general lighting in cottage spaces.

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## KerryF

Thank you all for the very helpful and informative replies - just what I hoped  :Smilie:  
I've relayed the info to my hubby and he says we do have the black plastic transponders (no surprise there), so that's 100w for the transformers and another 500w for the lights.  Eek!

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## Steffen595

heard the transformers are ok with LEDs the white ones not, they need some baseload, more than 1 W. LEDs then need LED drivers. Buying a driver and a 9W LEd (qq-3 W are not enough), you may as well get 9-11W CFLs direct to 230V. 
Some of the bigger dia downlight fittings are open at the top, soon there are dead insects in there. Altogether, better get light fittings, you can get a room going on 20 W instead 50 in downlights. 
If light from same fitting blows and the others don't, should check your fitting then?

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## KerryF

So, we listened to everyone's advice and also discussed with our sparky and Australian Lighting (Canterbury Rd, Bayswater), who our sparky recommended. 
We've settled on a circular (I don't like the track ones - not really as suited to a cottage) chrome ACE 4-spotlight fitting with GU10 CFLs for the kitchen, to provide directional bright white light.  For the living area, we've settled on one circular glass oyster shaped thingie with a little chrome around the edges, which will also have bright white energy saving bulbs (2 of them) so we have that light when needed (I sew, so often cut patterns on the livingroom floor - especially in winter when the wood fire is on and it's freezing!!), but they are dimmable so we can reduce the level when relaxing with a glass of wine in front of the tv. 
May opt to change these to the warmer light bulbs if too harsh once dimmed, but will see. 
For the one spot light in the hallway (it's a tiny, tiny hall about 1.5msq), we've gone for a chrome fitting, glass cylinder thingie that will also have energy efficient bulbs.  It doesn't need to be bright, because although there's no natural light in that hall, 4 doors open directly onto it and there's only a small cupboard in it.  Plus, one of the doors is our baby's room and it's better to have a lower light level when we're checking on her at night.  :Smilie:  
Chrome is not what I would choose for a cottage and I would prefer wall based uplighters or a similar lamp in the livingroom (certainly not an oyster which makes me think of the outdoor safety lighting used at the doors to council apartment blocks to make it easier to see your mugger before they hit you with a baseball bat), but these will do for now and perhaps they will grow on me! 
Thanks again for all your help. 
Poor hubby is now in the roof space laying the insulation on the half of the house that doesn't have downlighters yet...  I can hear the swearing through the roof and a closed door!!

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## ringtail

I thought CFL's were not dimmable

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## olfella

> I thought CFL's were not dimmable

   you can get some that are dimmable for extra dollars.

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## Black Cat

I have just installed 12 volt LED with a 60 degree arc over the kitchen benchtops. They are great. They also have the benefit of not requiring cages if you insulate (according to the new improved electrician). They throw a white light, but also come in yellow if there are areas where you don't need such an intense light. Good luck.

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## ringtail

How much are the led bulbs blackcat ? How much more are the dimmable cfl's olfella ? Are they a fairly recent thing ( dimmables) ?

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## KerryF

$20+ for dimmable CFL globes, but also depends on the fittings (the dimmables are also larger globes) 
don't you always need a cage or similar when installing insulation, if the lights are inset / need a cutaway in the ceiling?

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## johnc

It is my understanding that insulation should not come into contact with any light fitting as it shortens the life of the globe. Especially if it catches fire (halegon). That applies to CFL, LED and especially halegon.

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## GraemeCook

Good Morning Kerry 
You can get guards that look like witches hats that you put over the top of light fittings to keep the insulation clear.   At 60 years old your wiring is probably not insulation compliant so you will need to get a sparky to check it out.   May have to move some or put channels around it to give clearance for the insulation.   Non-compliance by you can give insurance co a way to worm out of their obligations. 
Someone published a table of the efficiency levels, measured in lumens per watt of electricity, of various lights a couple of years ago - Smurf, I think.   From memory: 
* incandescent and halogen lights are about the same effficiency, or inefficiency! 
* CFLs and LEDs are about twice as efficient as incandescent & halogens. 
* (Long) tube fluoros are about twice as efficient as CFL' and LEDs. 
Like you, I do not like downlights.  An inherently extremely inefficient design where fashion has clearly overtaken function and common sense. 
Also, the performance of CFLs in real life is a little below what their output ratings would indicate as their diffuse light source means that reflectors cannot be focussed well.   
Additionally, commercial light fittings commonly work better than domestic ones simply because the reflectors are bigger.  Again appearance vs function. 
Good Luck and Cheers 
Graeme

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## KerryF

Cheers for the extra tip there Graham - don't want to give the insurance company any excuses!! 
The electrician will be with us on Tuesday and he's going to remove the fittings, sort out the wiring, install new fittings, plus check out the heat lamps/fan/bathroom light combos and remove those too.  Hopefully, we'll be compliant once done  :Smilie:

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## KerryF

Our sparky just left and we've got all those stupid downlighters out - hooray! 
Unfortunately, our new dimmable globes don't work with our existing dimmer, so we're going to need to replace those with boring old normal globes for the moment.  We could try an additional dimmer transformer thingie on top of the mini-transformers that are built into the globes, but I figured why bother? 
However, for those who are interested, we bought Nelson Energy Saving Lamps, dimmable with built in dimmer globe, 20w=100w (life=10 standard globes).  The rated average life is 10,000 hours with NO dimmer in the circuit.  It says that dimming CFL lamps will reduce the rated average lamp life and that to ensure as long as possible a life, you should always ensure that the dimmer is turned UP FULL when you initially turn on the globes, wait 5 mins for them to go to max brightness and then dim them.  You should also not dim to below 25% of the light output (need a light meter to work it out!!) and doing so for more than a few seconds can cause the lamp to fail.  Dimming at low levels may cause flashing or flickering, and the dimmer should be adjusted up if this is the case (ours do this as soon as you try to dim them and they don't dim at all!). 
The Nelson dimmable CFLs have been apparently tested with the following dimmers: HPM trailing edge dimmers, 400T, 500E, 1000T, 10000E; Clipsal trailing edge dimmer 32E 450TM and Legrand electronic transformer dimmer 1000VA 03657.  Other dimmers might work, they might not (like ours - no, I don't know what it is).

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## iconnect

KerryF
Have a look at these new CFL specific dimmers from clipsal http://www.clipsal.com/trade/__data/...1/A0000190.pdf
I've not used them yet but they look the goods for that type of application.

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## KerryF

Thanks Darren - will do  :Smilie:

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## kyrannian

I recommend the clipsal CFL dimmer, i have both them and clipsal universal dimmers, and the universal ones won't light the CFL's if the dimmer is on low, where as the CFL specific dimmer has a function to ensure that the CFL will light. They are about 40-50 $/ea (trade)

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