# Forum Contacts & Links Estimating & Quoting  Who do I need for a kitchen renovation?

## nezim

Probably a very silly question but I'm completely new to this - What trades do I need for the following renovation?  
I overspent at the auction and have close to no budget left for renovation, so I'm drastically reducing scope to making the kitchen functional. Currently an upright cooktop/oven is squeezed in next to the sink (see layout on left). I need space for a washing machine (none in the bathroom), so I'm wondering whether it can be placed in the spot where the stove is currently (layout on left):
1. Washing machine
2. Oven / cooktop
3. Fridge
4. More bench space 
The plug point and plumbing lines are currently in the top right corner of the kitchen, under the benchtop. Keeping that in mind, my proposed layout isn't necessarily the best outcome, but what I'm assuming will be the cheapest. Please correct me if otherwise!  
What trade/s do I need to install a washing machine, tidy up the layout and replace the flooring? And is there anyone you would recommend in Randwick area?

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## johnc

A plumber (new taps for washing machine), electrician (move or alter power points), cabinet maker and someone who can do the rest, either builder or handyman. It looks like solid brick so wires and plumbing have to be chased into the wall if that is the case. You could easily spend $10000 for a modest change. Whatever you do ask for quotes especially from the plumber as what often looks a minor change can become expensive if they are moving pipes and waste lines.  
Maybe get a cabinet maker or someone like Freedom (careful of high pressure sales offers) to do a basic design or offer suggestions of what is possible and approx cost. Make it clear what your limit is for cost.

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## phild01

With the washing machine on the far left, run a sink with the dish draining somewhat over the washing machine so you have good access to the bowl and re-positioned stove, You are on a budget so visit Ikea for a design and installer who can work with the plumber and electrician. Their kitchens are okay for a budget and they have reasonable inexpensive laminate splashbacks too but try and spend as much as you can afford. Avoid kaboodle if you saw the other thread under kitchens https://www.renovateforum.com/f200/k...htmare-128481/

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## nezim

Thanks John and Phil! 
I was hoping a flatpack kitchen would be feasible, but looks like my auction overspend even puts that in question. Good to know about Kaboodle though! Ikea and Bunnings are the only flatpack options that come immediately to mind, so good to be aware of the warnings re Bunnings' Kaboodle. 
Based on your steer, I'll start with getting plumbing estimates and see how I go from there.

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## toooldforthis

I take it is an apartment rather than a house?
Because if you have access to the outside wall it can be cheaper to run the new plumbing along the outside of the wall then in to where you need it rather than chase into the walls.

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## Bros

I’m no expert but wouldn’t you be better engaging one contractor eg cabinet maker who can get the electrician and plumber? 
If you get each trade seperate you can get a lot of one blaming the other for this and that if one doesn’t come on time it can hold the rest up. 
The cabinet makers should have a list of their preferred trades they use.

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## phild01

> I’m no expert but wouldn’t you be better engaging one contractor eg cabinet maker who can get the electrician and plumber? 
> If you get each trade seperate you can get a lot of one blaming the other for this and that if one doesn’t come on time it can hold the rest up.

  Precisely and also why I made that earlier suggestion.  

> and installer who can work with the plumber and electrician.

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## YoungBolt

The builder of that apartment defintely went with "less is more". Strange how they've shoved that stove into the corner, while fitting a huge sink & drainer and then shoehorning some crappy little cabinets around the fridge. 
Plumbers & sparkys are costly trades. Both have $100/hour labour rates and a call out fee. Chippys/handymen are around the $50-60 mark and tilers around the $80 mark. If you can reduce the amount of plumbing and electrical changes you need to make, you can save some good coin.  
If it was my kitchen, this is what I'd do: 
1) Remove the cooker and replace with a 2 burner induction cooktop and buy a convection oven microwave. Having a full big cooker like that is a waste of space in a small kitchen and I doubt many who live in apartments are doing big cookoffs. You can put the convection microwave anywhere and have more cabinet or dishwasher space. I'd use the cooker space for a smaller 600mm wide fridge instead. 
2) Install a small sink with no dish drainer and keep the existing taps location except fit some new more flashier taps & fittngs. Install a 450mm slim dishwasher next to the sink. Fit proper overhead cabinets above the sink. Ikea sell a microwave box that could come in handy too. 
3) Utilise the other side of the dinng area with a pantry (if possible between window and wall) and maybe a benchtop under the window with cabinets underneath. If you go down the ikea path, they even have pull out benchtops for extra space. 
4) Between the two ends of the kitchen i'd fit a small collapsible dining table. I'd probably leave it down most of the time and only use it when you have guests.  
Could do the whole lot for probably $2000 including labour.  
This way you'd only need to get a plumber to hook up the dishwasher, you can likely keep those tiles or at least tile over them,

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## nezim

Thanks Bros & Phil - hadn't picked up on the tip to work with a cabinet maker/installer who could coordinate the others - this sounds the like the route I should take. As a complete rookie I probably won't do a very good job at coordinating different trades. 
Your suggestions are amazing YoungBolt! I hadn't even considered that type of a layout. If that's feasible for $2k, I'd be very keen. 
Based on last night's browsing of Gumtree, I was wondering whether it was worth replacing the current cabinets:   Attachment 127099Attachment 127100 
With the 2m option below, and sticking the washing machine (not dishwasher) underneath? Attachment 127101Attachment 127102

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## phild01

I would certainly replace the cupboards and wholly agree with a double induction cooktop and convection microwave. The washing machine will likely negate a dishwasher. I don't really like the full width sinks you have shown.

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## YoungBolt

Does the apartment not have a washing machine in it? Are you expected to wash your clothes in the sink? lol 
If you fit a washing machine then it's going to be tricky to get a dishwasher in there.  
I suggested a 450mm dishwasher as it would take out the need for a big sink. You could easily get away with a 40cm or smaller bowl sink from ikea or similar. With the adevent of the dishwasher, we no longer need these old school monstrous sinks with drainers as no one is having to stand their with their marigolds and littie chequer apron washing dishes on end - the sink is only there to hold a dish or two until you can stack it in the dishwasher or wash the odd occasional item.  
If you want a washing machine inside, I'd rather suggest you rip out the bath and replace with a walk in shower and a washing machine next to it. Who has a bath anymore?
The plumbing will all be there so would significantly reduce the cost. Putting in the kitchen would just steal so much cabinet space - of which you dont have much of! 
It's possible to do for around $2k, but the trick is to keep costs down as much as possible so go for the cheapest gear you can. Get a cheap 450mm dishwasher and replace it with a decent one when it breaks down. You can get cheap wall tiles for $20/sq metre at old mate Frank walkers house or glue down an acrylic panel which are super cheap. You can get cheap cabinetry from ikea and later change the doors if you want to spruce up the kitchen later. Put down the most basic lino for now and upgrade to tiles or rubber vinyl "floorboards" later.  
Out of that $2k, around $800 would be labour for a plumber and chippy I'd say leaving approx $1200 for materials. 
Plumber would be probably $300 for hooking up an outlet for the dishwasher and fitting a mixer tap. I'd definitely pay full price for the plumber to give you a certificate of compliance. 
 If you rip out the kitchen yourself, a chippy will likely be able to install the new one in a day which is around that $500 mark. Put together the new cabinets yourself and it's a piss easy day's work for mr chippy. 
Also consider stacking the wallet with a few pinapples and you'll be surprised how things get a wee bit cheaper  :Wink:   
I would seriously advice against buying 2nd hand kitchens if you're not handy and having to pay labour. Unless you managed to find the golden goose of a almost new condition flatpack, you'll likely find that majority of kitchens from the 2000s and earlier are custom sized and very difficult to work with. It could be out of shape, half rotten at the back and you'll have to get custom made doors if anything goes wrong or you need to replace something. Many of those 2000s kitchens have thermowrap doors that peel like a banana. You'll be dealing with old runners and hinges as well. 2nd hand kitchens are great for those of us who happy to muck around with them hours on end to save some cash because we're not paying labour. 
Most tradies will be unwilling to work with an old kitchen - just too much unknown and it's very hard to accurately quote install costs. Time is money. They can likely install a new kitchen in a a handful of hours, versus wasting a full day trying to repair and make a crappy old kitchen work.  
There should be plenty of budget flatpack kitchens in sydney. Otherwise ikea is a great option.

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## nezim

Yes, of the many quirks of this apartment there are no laundry facilities, and this unit at least doesn't make space for it in the bathroom. I had intended to spend a heft amount completely renovating the bath, kitchen and shifting layout/wall so the bedroom and living space/open kitchen were swapped around. But that won't be feasible until I've saved for another year or more.  :Compress:   
For now, I just need a kitchen and laundry that more or less works  :Bandaid:  until its replaced once the full reno does happen. That, plus my current bank balance are the drivers to keep the budget tiny at the moment. So I'm happy to make do without a dishwasher, but lack of a washing machine would be far more tedious.  
YoungBolt, I'm being cautious about the 2nd hand kitchen for exactly the reason you've stated. Will catch up with Ikea kitchen designers to nut out what the materials will cost. 
What's the best way to go about finding a tradie who could take this on? Google and cross my fingers?

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## toooldforthis

since budget is an issue then you should get some $ for the cabinets, especially the overhead one (curves are cute) and recently I saw someone chasing those old base unit doors to put on new carcases.
put on gumtree or marketplace and say retro, 50s, 60s.

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## YoungBolt

> Yes, of the many quirks of this apartment there are no laundry facilities, and this unit at least doesn't make space for it in the bathroom. I had intended to spend a heft amount completely renovating the bath, kitchen and shifting layout/wall so the bedroom and living space/open kitchen were swapped around. But that won't be feasible until I've saved for another year or more.   
> For now, I just need a kitchen and laundry that more or less works  until its replaced once the full reno does happen. That, plus my current bank balance are the drivers to keep the budget tiny at the moment. So I'm happy to make do without a dishwasher, but lack of a washing machine would be far more tedious.  
> YoungBolt, I'm being cautious about the 2nd hand kitchen for exactly the reason you've stated. Will catch up with Ikea kitchen designers to nut out what the materials will cost. 
> What's the best way to go about finding a tradie who could take this on? Google and cross my fingers?

  How long are you planning to stay there? 
I'm guessing it's probably in a good location due to age and size, but I'd suggest unless you plan to be there for 15 years, it might be a good idea to avoid overcapitising on the place. Apartments have very low capital growth so you you're unlikely to make your money back if you spend massive money on it. 
Renovations can cost a lot of money and apartments can cost more than a traditional house due to the costs to getting access to and running water & electricity lines etc  and you also usually have to get bodycorp approval too for major renovations. 
It's your money, but you're probably best off just to update the kitchen and bathroom in situ, and save your money toward a bigger place that has a layout you like.  
Moving walls would be very costly and likely impossible considering it's an apartment and they're in place to support loads above. So you'd end up with a smaller lounge & kitchen area than you have now. 
You can jump onto the ikea website and use their kitchen designer tool.   
The best place to start with a tradie is to speak to friends & family. Word of mouth is best.

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## METRIX

Just go with flatpack kitchen, you can put a frontloader washing machine under a standard kitchen benchtop height. 
I would wrap it around the corner and consider a small island that can also act as a dining table, because you have stuff all room to do anything else 
Go for a single bowl sink if you must, but a 1 & 1/2 is a must IMO if you don't have a dishwasher, go for the type with no drainer on the side to save room, you can always dry them on the benchtop with a teatowl underneath, or you can get a sink with a side drainer but will lose bench space. 
It looks like the back right corner has a plumbing stack running up the wall, this needs to be taken into consideration as it will eat into any carcass you put in the corner. 
I would ditch the freestanding stove, and put an underbench oven and cooktop, this will require extra wiring to be done, as the two will be on different circuits, where the existing freestanding will be on one circuit. 
Put in as many above cupboards as you can, this space is lacking any sort of storage.  
My suggestions  
Put the cooktop onto the larger wall with space around both sides
Pantry and fridge can go on the smaller wall, you dont want a fridge or pantry breaking up the longer bench run, and the also goes into a window, so only having a benchtop and above cupboards is mych easier to design than having a full height and depth cupboard. 
By using flatpack you can reuse them if you do a reno later, but my advice is don;t plan on doing something now then redoing it later it's a waste of money, and you will overcapitalize on it, do it properly now, do the bathroom up later, live in it for a few years and hopefully you will recoup whet you have spent., 
Also you would NEVER move any walls in an apartment or swap uses of rooms, this is the number one NONO, it will be very costly because you have to deal with strata, and you have neighbors above and or below so I would put that wish into the the too hard basket, this will overcapitalize the apartment instantly and you WON'T recoup the money, you also need to think about moving all the services for the swap of rooms, such as water and drainage, don't even go there is my advice. 
This apartment is perfect for a light reno, being new flatp[ack kitchen, update bathroom if it's really bad, paint, new carpet, new switches / powerpoints new lights, and window coverings, live in it for a few years and flog it off, then move onto another one. 
Adding a washing machine facility will be a big bonus if the building has no shared facilities currently these are the things that will add value not moving walls.
Putting the Washing machine in the kitchen you don;t wan't to move the sink too far from it's current position purely due to drainage, water can be moved but drainage becomes an issue, this also means you want to keep the front loader close to the sink again for ease of drainage. 
You can move the oven and cooktop anywhere because it's just a matter of running new wiring 
From left to right I would go for the following carcass 
400 Full height pantry
800 Fridge you can go smaller if you want a smaller fridge then allocate more room to the pantry or another under bench cupboard
900 Corner with above cupboards
600 sink you can get a 1 & 1/2 bowl sink to just fit in this carcass
600 Open space for front loader
600 Oven / cooktop
350 Base cabinet this should keep it 50mm away from the window 
Then you can put a small breakfast bar in if you like to give eating area

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## nezim

You've all been incredibly helpful! Can't thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and ideas!

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