# Forum More Stuff Go to Whoa!  The Old Friary...Our 90 yr old House

## Artiglass

This will be a slow going topic as we havent done too much since moving in. My husband had to work over 240 kms away for a few months and has only just moved into the house, so we are operating around a lot of still boxed up gear yet to find a home, and garage stuff yet to go in the garage that isnt built yet. We also are trying to sell our dads houses to finance some of the work. Both our dads died within a fortnight of each other  :Frown:   so we have deceased estates to sell. 
This is our house we bought ( 1921 built originally the Catholic Church's presbytery and afterwards housed the Franciscan Friars )  ......7 bedrooms, 3 sitting rooms.     
 and these photos taken in the 50's     
Anyway........I have done a little. As I am a professional leadlighter by trade I started rebuilding and repairing the leadlights that had breakages and had lost their strength. That meant removing them from frame, doing a rubbing to take a a pattern off it, dissassembling, soaking all glass in a solution to clear all the paint buildup, smoky haze off them etc, rinsing and building the whole leadlight again with new lead. In some cases some of the glass had to be changed as breakages made it necesssary to put new ( old style ) glass back where I couldnt match the glass for repairs. The door leadlight was long gone ( missing ), so I had an original pattern for one that suited the leadlight series in this house and I made a new one ( old style ) for the front door.    
Have rebuilt the ones around the side of the door and in the middle of rebuilding the one over the door right now. Once I have completed the overhead leadlight I will be painting the full door and surround, then move onto rebiulding the leadlight door right next to it on the right angle corner ( weird we have two doors right there on a corner ). 
Have photos..........will post later. 
We are also amidst excavations in the backyard for the new large garage to go up to house the Cadillac Hearse that we own and Kens Valiant Charger as well.  Should see that done withion 3-4 weeks total. 
That will be great as most the the stuff that belongs in the garage is currently in my leadlight workshop and the garden shed.  Cant wait to sort it all out where it finally has to go. 
Apart from that I have repaired and painted the steps going up to one of our entries ( dark charcoal grey ), and next step is to paint the sides of those steps once I scrape off all the loose paint and prep the surface. Sides will be painted clotted cream...........same cream colour as the heritage listed church across the corner ( built by same priest ).  There's a lot of loose flaking paint to deal with and some  repairs to do to the sides of the steps and to the lower foundation walls under the verandah.
We will be removing the large sections between upright posts on the verandah as they arent original to the house and are asbestos. I will be putting back original style handrails , top and bottom sections and balusters?  and the end result will be a cream and indian red colour scheme ( yet to work out the third colour as I am not a fan of federation green ). Doing the verandah makeover may have to wait till our dads houses sell or I get a $$$ wise boost from my leadlight work. Moving to the country means I have less leadlight work for the moment but thats kinda cool as it gives me time to do the leadlights on the house. 
Good news is .....so far the local council havent done the heritage listing which we were told WILL happen. So, for now, I dont have to argue with them or prove my case for any of the work I am doing so far. 
So far we have discovered under a deluge of rain the whole back door area floods........up to 3-4 inches of water lapping at the back door and coming in as well. Roof plumber and local plumber will be doing some work on that soon as the roof plumber is back from holidays in Canada. There are almost no downpipes in existence on the house and too much water around the foundations. As well as that a drain runs under the slab to the outside gutter and that needs a rethink as it doesnt cope well enough with the rain we get.. Also the ceiling in my bedroom leaks.  :Frown:   
Reason we have had a huge delay in doing a lot....is funds, having to build the aviaries for our birds, husband working away every week and only one day left on weekends, and moving stuff slowly from our other house 240 kms away. Lucky for us, our previous house sold at its first home open and 5 people fought over it to drive the price up another $25,000.  Basically our old house paid for this house.
Will organise some photos and updates as we go along.    :Biggrin:  
PS just want to say.........I appreciate all the advice we got from here when we were in the buying stage of our house.  :Smilie:

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## watson

Progress... :2thumbsup:

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## teela001

Wow what a beautiful old house Artiglass. I love old houses, so much character.

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## Artiglass

> Wow what a beautiful old house Artiglass. I love old houses, so much character.

  Me too. We moved to the country for the love of this house   :Biggrin:

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## SilentButDeadly

Well done.....was wondering how this one was going. 
I like old houses too.  But I don't think I'd own or renovate another one unless there was something very very special about it.  As in this case.

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## Artiglass

Today saw the slab for the new larger than average double garage to go in ...... 
Down came the old wood shed  
and in went the slab     
garage is 9 metres deep by 6 metres wide.   There's a retaining wall yet to go in but has to wait till the shed is up.   
While we had the concrete truck handy we fixed these stairs        
so now I can patch some cracking and paint.  
Shed goes up after the slab cures a little     :Smilie:

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## Artiglass

Shed was up ages ago but we have to move the fence to be able to access it. Flu hit is both hard and we were out of action for about 4 wks. 
A slight hiccup came when limestone blocks for the retaining wall  were delivered while we were out  and put right in front of garage fence and gate. Good thing we didnt have our car inside the garage at the time or we wouldnt have got out  :Biggrin:    .....moving three pallets of large limestone blocks wouldnt have been fun. Brickies here now doing the retaining wall so we can finish off around the garage and reclaim some yard space. Have done some small gardening projects, ( my husband found a large monk statue for the garden so I built a rockery at the monks feet and now wait for the plants to flower and develop )     
have done some painting externally ....the render sections along the walls and around window frames( the white goes and is being replaced by cream ), painted the  steps etc, and next project is the new replacement handrailings, new balusters and bottom rail on the verandah.......removing the old asbestos panels.  The matching handrailing wasnt a stock profile so we are having that made and should have the verandah done by Xmas......that will be mostly me doing all that and the painting etc. That will be the verandah done  EXCEPT the verandah flooring timbers which we are still after some reclaimed wood for that. 
Have yet to work out if I should use nails or screws or brackets  to assemble the verandah panels and attach handrails......I want it rock solid for any drunken fools who lean on it over Xmas and it needs to be load bearing for my 150 kg husband too. 
Old original colours of the woodwork, doors and concrete steps area seems to have once been a *federation green*, *a minty medium green* and a *yellow ochre* colour. YUK....so not going back there at all.  We are going with clotted cream and indian red mostly..... some dark grey here and there  
 When we moved into town we became the talk of the town due to my 1959 Cadillac Hearse we have parked out front.....people do slow drive bys to check her out.     
Now they are doing the same because of the monk statue.  :Biggrin:    *PS house still hasnt been listed so we move on and get stuff done before it is*

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## sundancewfs

Now if you could just hook up a couple of red LED lights under the monk's hood attached to a motion sensor, you'd never have anyone trying to sneak up on your house in the night! 
Love the house and the glass.

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## Artiglass

> Now if you could just hook up a couple of red LED lights under the monk's hood attached to a motion sensor, you'd never have anyone trying to sneak up on your house in the night! 
> Love the house and the glass.

   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:    you and my husband have the same thoughts about the lights under the monks hood  :Biggrin:

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## SilentButDeadly

> Now if you could just hook up a couple of red LED lights under the monk's hood attached to a motion sensor, you'd never have anyone trying to sneak up on your house in the night!

  Hell, yeah!!

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## Artiglass

Retaining wall done,     
now to backfill and level yard and tidy up the mess   :Smilie:

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## Artiglass

New verandah work.......
We have ordered the matching handrails to be made as we couldnt get anything like them in stock over here in W.A.  Luckily Subiaco Restoration had the cutters for running that profile of handrail through.  By "matching handrails" I mean to match the shorter sections, not the later longer handrail sections that were added with the asbestos sheeting.  
anyway we collect the new handrailing romorrow and all the ballusters as well ready to change the front and side verandahs from solid asbestos panels to something a little more traditional. They still havent heritage listed the house so we are getting some stuff done now while we can without all the hassle.
I am likely the one that will have to do all this..........my husband isn't any good with anything that needs to be square, level or straight....more of a "Dodgy Bros" kinda renovator...is he  :Smilie: 
I am not sure yet if the best way to assemble the new sections ready to attach is by screws or dowelling. Any suggestions most welcome. I have an 80 yr old ex-builder master craftsman with wood that I can call on for advice if I get stuck. 
I will undercoat and prepaint everything first.....that will take some time.....

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## seriph1

Hi again  -  very pleased you are doing this home with deep respect (black monks aside!)  -  it really is something special and worthy of a long term view. 
well done! 
... and don't you just love how the various carriers choose to exact 'revenge' when delivering to empty households

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## Black Cat

Standard conservation practice is to introduce subtle differences between the traditional (original) bits and the new bits. So screws would probably be the way to go. In terms of the structural strength of the thing, if you have any doubts at all, ensure you have a reliable builder working with you. DIY is all very well but not if you have no basic understanding of the appropriate methodology.

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## seriph1

What will you be using for the panels? Were they tongue and groove boards that made up the 'solid' runs of balustrade? 
If I were doing a handrail on my place (1880 VIC) I'd mortise the handrail ends into the posts, then seal those with a high grade outdoor/all-weather paintable sealer.   
CAVEAT   -   Not saying the following would work 100% perfectly, as I haven't tried it on this application in particular, but I have had great success using this method when repairing damaged Oak flooring ... 
I guess I would make a template to ensure perfect fit and use a bearing sided edge trimming cutter. Double depth on one post and single on the other so I could slide the handrail into the 'deeper' end then move it into place at the other. A couple of long stainless screws (pre drilled in the rails) fitted through from the bottom at an angle, into the posts to hold it in place and a further thin bead of paintable sealer and it should result in a very neat job  - as I think about it, I believe this would produce an excellent result, be very long lasting and in fact easier than other methods once the template was made. 
The template would need to be over sized by the width of the bearing on the cutter. 
You 'could' do it by hand as well, just tracing around the handrail and chiselling out but to me, that's too much like hard work. 
Anyway ... just a suggestion. 
.... further thought: You could also mortise them in by cutting a simple square tenon in the handrail ends ... the outer edge of the rail would simply be butted up to the post so the seal would be inferior to the other method but done right, it would provide a neat finish and be easier than the other method though the only real challenge is making the template by hand.

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## Artiglass

Thankyou for the advice Steve.....I appreciate it a lot  :Smilie:  
The panels there now are asbestos and seem to have been made up for the time period where they fitted the whole thing. Maybe for weather or maybe for the priests and monks verandah privacy. Possibly the verandah posts were all there was for some years with no panels between....the infill panels dont seem to date back to the building of the house.
Existing breadloaf profile handrailing seems to be fitted as you have described by cutting in one end deeper than the other and sliding back then nailing with a skewed nail from the top. Hence the cutout section will be a different and a bigger shape than the railing we will have to fit. That may put paid to cutting the shape in for the new/old handrailing profile. 
It may be necessary for some builders bog to be used. OR we use the old method as you suggested and use the existing cutout section and fill whatever hole or gap is left  ? 
Builder friend suggested we make the whole infill section...top handrail, balusters and bottom rail as one unit and make it tight and then wedge it hard into position and use recessed coach bolts in from the side timbers into the verandah posts....then bog over the coachbolts. 
Some of the verandah posts are badly twisted, like they used green timber to make them from and later on they warped badly, so to make accurate infill panels will require some triple measuring before cutting and fitting. 
We took a look at the balusters on offer where we got our handrailing done and both of us didnt like the look of the 42 X 42 mm square balusters and we did prefer the look of a wider baluster. We are likely going to use a 75mm wide by 40mm baluster, possibly a 50mm gap or whatever works best for the span. We will repeat a narrower feature panel in the middle of each span to match the feature panels between each double section of verandah posts. Most sections between verandah posts are approx 2400 but thats does vary a bit...as little as 1800 in one section and 2790 in another.  
I wonder, can you use biscuits for joinery in this situation or isnt it right for exterior work or strength.   Please bear in mind its lil ol' me doing the work not a you-beaut builder husband   :Biggrin:   so I am pondering all possibilities  :Smilie:  
Cheers kaz

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## Artiglass

> Standard conservation practice is to introduce subtle differences between the traditional (original) bits and the new bits. So screws would probably be the way to go. In terms of the structural strength of the thing, if you have any doubts at all, ensure you have a reliable builder working with you. DIY is all very well but not if you have no basic understanding of the appropriate methodology.

  Thankyou very much Black Cat....I appreciate your help. As far as those subtle differences goes I have read also that they like to see a slight but discernible difference between old and new so they can identify the new work form the old. I will try to do that.    :Smilie:

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## seriph1

It may have almost paid you to remove the existing handrail and had it stripped and machined, but to stop perhaps 150 to 200 before the ends and just refit them. 
I am not really following you on the balusters. I agree that 42 mm square doesn't sound like it would work  ... are you going to replicate the existing panels in the longer runs? You could have those every 3 or 4 feet (thinking imperially here) with perhaps two other sizes in between. Say the panels are 200 wide, then you 'could' have two at 50mm on either side, then a run of 100mm wide panels, then back to two 50mm to run into the next 200 mm wide one. How long is the run? I will draw a run of say, 3 metres before going to bed and post a pic now. BRB

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## seriph1

Almost certain the "closed in" effect was a later idea. Do not have any examples here in the library of closed in verandahs like yours, that were done originally .... that's not to say it isn't possible, I just can't find any examples in the 6 or 7 books I checked in. 
Anyway, this is the idea:

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## Artiglass

> are you going to replicate the existing panels in the longer runs?

     if you mean the pieces with the cross cut out in it they will be what I will replicate and I think put just one in the middle of each new section and balusters each side but open to suggestion there.  Each "run" is approx 2400 wide, most of them... one is 2790 and one 1800, two are 900 and 760 around the other steps other side of verandah  :Smilie:

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## Artiglass

Just showed the picture you posted to my husband and he likes the alternating baluster sizes as you have shown very much  :Smilie:

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## seriph1

thanks ... repetition was a common element in Victorian era buildings .... 'blocked' asymmetry (like groups of one's two's three's four's reversed and repeated etc.) emerged as popular from around 1910. 
Also, a single (or two, or three spaced apart depending on run length) vertical stainless rod would work to support the centres of the bottom rails and be practically invisible. 
BTW systems as I drew take a good amount of planning  -  often built and fitted on the ground. If 30mm spacing was the preference, then making a LOT of 30mm spacer blocks would be a good idea ....  
What is the thickness of the trefoil panels?

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## Artiglass

> thanks ... repetition was a common element in Victorian era buildings .... 'blocked' asymmetry (like groups of one's two's three's four's reversed and repeated etc.) emerged as popular from around 1910. 
> Also, a single (or two, or three spaced apart depending on run length) vertical stainless rod would work to support the centres of the bottom rails and be practically invisible. 
> BTW systems as I drew take a good amount of planning  -  often built and fitted on the ground. If 30mm spacing was the preference, then making a LOT of 30mm spacer blocks would be a good idea ....  
> What is the thickness of the trefoil panels?

  Thickness of the cross panels is 32mm and they are 200mm wide.  The ones I will make will be about 140mm wide.
The rebated allowance under the top railing is 40mm so I will sit them forward and use an appropriate piece of beading behind to tidy up the gap. 
With regard to painting the top rails and bottom rails will be indian red, the balusters will be a cottage cream and the decorative panels yet to be decided...either a lighter red shade, a dark grey or a green ( not bright green or not federation green ). Vertical posts will be indian red. 
Its seems by this old photo  
That the trend for painting the verandah posts was only up so far so I will do that and use the cream up the top as well. 
Whatever third colour I choose I guess must be later used on the decorative parts of the gabled section as shown in this photo   
so in light of that maybe not green ( I am not a lover of most greens ) ...... 
dark grey maybe ??  
The proportions of the upright verandah posts are 150mm by 150mm.
We removed the iron handrail that went up the steps on the lefthand side for painting purposes. We will have to put some form of handrailing back for a couple of reasons.......my husband being one ( his dodgy knees ) and for older visitors. Design and style and economics of that yet to be determined.

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## seriph1

the trouble with the green that became prevalent in the 90's (commonly referred to as Brunswick green) is that it's simply too washed out to be authentic and effective .... also, many never coated their trims with enough coats to make it truly solid. 
there is an alternative which was used in Post-Federation Australia which was called "Emerald Hill"   -   it is so dark at dusk it looks black. In full light it is still very dark but I find it really yummy .... it may be a bit too much on your place but I doubt it, given the scale of the home. 
I love (the right) grey when it is done right. Your Indian Red, Cream, Green/Grey scheme while a wee bit cliché does look nice on Federation homes. ... of course, all this is only my opinion and as my darling wife always points out, what I know could very easily be written on the head of a pin .... with room to spare  :Biggrin:  
BTW is that a modern/recent extension on the right hand side of the home?

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## Artiglass

The extension on the right was added in the late sixties to house the extra franciscan monks that resided in the house..added were 3 bedrooms and a new bathroom and toilet area.  making the house now have 7 bedrooms, 3 sitting rooms, 5 with fireplaces. 
Recently I was talking to a local fellow who was ( with his business partner ) the man who did the addition. He is now in his mid seventies.  Prior to the addition the weatherboard part on at the back in the black and white photos was a washouse/bathroom plus verandah. Once the addition went on a cement slab was poured for the walkway area around in a u shape but the floors of the three new bedrooms are again jarrah ? floorboards.  
I will check out that colour you mentioned while I am out and about later, as I do like the blacky greens.

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## Artiglass

Noone could show me a sample of that emerald hill colour while I was out but found it online

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## seriph1

yes that's the one. Dont hold back from making up your own colour though. When i recommend such things to clients I add that it is always a good idea document any custom formulations.

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## Artiglass

> Existing breadloaf profile handrailing seems to be fitted as you have described by cutting in one end deeper than the other and sliding back then nailing with a skewed nail from the top. Hence the cutout section will be a different and a bigger shape than the railing we will have to fit. That may put paid to cutting the shape in for the new/old handrailing profile. 
> It may be necessary for some builders bog to be used. OR we use the old method as you suggested and use the existing cutout section and fill whatever hole or gap is left  ?

  I began work today on the verandah..........I used a reciprocating saw ( the you beaut el cheapo OZITO jobbie ) to cut down the side of each panel of asbestos in frame, cutting through the wood only ( not asbestos ) and the nails and lifting the whole asbestos and wood frame panel out and away in one go. Chiselled out the leftover ends of the breadloaf railing to reveal a deeper cut in at one end than the other ( as you thought Steve ). There was also nails going horizontally into each section of handrail at the vertical posts. Now we have a larger cutout due to the shape of the breadloaf handrails than is required for the newer handrails. Either I bog it with builders bog completely now and recut the shape or I slip the new handrailing into place and deal with any gaps that remain. I am also painting as I go.  
Original colours of upright verandah posts were revealed to be a beige colour, later a mid minty green and later a brunswick green followed by white. Due to lead content I am trying not to disturb the paint too much and dealing only with the loose and flaking stuff and some slight rot at the base of the posts.  
Bear in mind its mostly just me doing the work with very occasional assistance and bulk criticisms from the hubby  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Artiglass

Havent been able to do too much but most of the first section of verandah railing and balusters done...second section tomorrow.

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## Black Cat

Looking good. I would be sticking with leaving the hole nice and big until everything that has to go is in. then backfilling any available gaps. Saves a lot of mucking about doing it that way, but given your progress you have presumably already found that out.

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## seriph1

I love that red! Is it the colorbond colour or something special made up? It really sets the bricks off beautifully.

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## Artiglass

Its a british paints indian red...one of the premixed colours you can buy straight off the shelf. Some Indian reds are too brownish but this one is just right.

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## Artiglass

We have figured out that to paint anything higher up, like above the posts on the verandah and anything inside the house at the 13 ft ceiling level, we need more than just a ladder, so we are investing in an order picking platform ladder.......use the hell out of it and maybe sell it after....although if we can store it, might be best to keep it. Height will reach past roof height once standing on top platform. Cost $2,200 but we can get one 2nd hand for $600.    :Biggrin:

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## Artiglass

> Looking good. I would be sticking with leaving the hole nice and big until everything that has to go is in. then backfilling any available gaps. Saves a lot of mucking about doing it that way, but given your progress you have presumably already found that out.

  
Thanks Blackcat   :Smilie:    Yes, seems to work best that way....the first section we have done was our learning processes and each one after should get easier ( in theory )   :Biggrin:

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## Black Cat

and then you get overconfident and thoroughly bollix up the one at the main entrance that you see every time you come home ... hang in there - only another (how many years?) to go ...

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## seriph1

These things are the work of a lifetime (or several sometimes) but I guess that's what good stewardship is all about when it comes to getting the elements right. Many people hope to do something significant in their lifetimes and leave a legacy and I feel this project is just such a one. Well done.

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## Artiglass

Slow going. We had to stop doing the verandah railings etc once we got to the corner of the house. Verandah floorboard timbers were pretty rotten and around the other side gets a whole lot worse. To address this we had to search out the right width and type floorboards for repairs and replacements. A whole new decking is out of the question as the area of verandah is too huge.  Finally sourced some jarrah floorboards ( ex state housing house ) and have begun to replace the boards by one of the main entries. We were hoping we could salvage some of the old boards to cut down for the corner of the verandah but despite best efforts they are coming up in splinters. Far too rotten. So looks alike another trip to the salvage yard to get more floorboards while they still have the same batch. We paid $4 lineal metre for these ones...( jarrah and pre-used but inside a house ). Another source quoted $7 lineal metre but they needed removal of coatings as well.
Christmas eve saw some local youngsters tanked up on booze come visit at 12:30 am and they pushed the monk statue over and smashed it up a bit. Local townsfolk were incensed and wrote about it in the local paper because apparently the monk statue is a kind of icon now and people stop to take photos of it and chat...........at the very least the newspaper article got us meeting more nice people in town, put paid to the story getting around that the statue was a GRIM REAPER not a MONK and we have met a whole pile of new friends since. Some offering to repair the statue, some offering me free leadlight doors and leadlights, some wrote nice cards of welcome etc.  Former friary's 'monk' vandalised - Local News - News - General - Collie Mail  
Today we do some more on the verandah floorboards and I am painting above the verandah railings and balusters.
Since the verandah floorboards are now a mix of newish AND AGED boards we have no option other than to paint the verandah with a decking paint in a suitable colour.
Suitable colour ?   Open to suggestions here

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## Artiglass

Replaced about 30% of the rotted floorboards on one side of the verandah, and we are moving onto the corner of the verandah next so we can complete the railings and balusters on the other side of the house. That side has a whole lot more rot to the verandah floorboards so we headed off and got some more recycled floorboards of the appropriate size. 
When  replacing the floorboards we also had to replace and reinforce some joists as well, especially where the top tread for the stairs was going onto the wooden verandah. 
Tried a few paint colours for the verandah floorboards......trying to match a jarrah colour seems to look so crap, so we may just go with the darker grey like the steps have been painted.  For two amateurs its looking pretty good so far and the new wood feels so much better and more stable and stronger underfoot.

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## SilentButDeadly

Have you considered simply a light/medium weight sanding job on the floorbards and finishing them with some decking oil.  This'd bring out the original jarrah colour and tie the boards in nicely...no need for paint.  Jarrah is too nice a timber to hide away...

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## Artiglass

The floorboards ( most of them ) are 90 years old and heavily weathered ..............plus theres a zillion loose nails that would refuse to be punched lower ( for sanding ) and shouldnt be anyway....in most cases the nails have to be pulled out as they are sitting there loose in their holes and some 4-5 nails per section of board into each joist times 4...so up to 20 or more nails per board.  We are having to pull those nails and find a new place to nail the boards down and fill the old holes as well as fill the holes on the recycled boards too.  There is no salvaging this old timber to a point where you can get a new clean surface enough to match the recycled timber, and finish off to a satisfying result. Aside from ripping up the whole verandah and doing it new ( which is out of the question ) ......we have reached the conclusion we will have to paint.

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## Artiglass

Ideally if we had both the budget and the expertise and whatever it took to disassemble the whole verandah ( i.e lift all posts from their support on the verandah floorboards ) we would re deck the whole verandah and then could just refinish it in gorgeous new jarrah with a clear coat.
Our big budget item to be done is the reroof and also some ceiling replacements. So, these ( verandah railings and floorboard replacements and repairs ) are the things we are doing ourselves.
In this day and age of great new decks being the thing to do etc it seems a paint finish on the verandah isnt everyone's idea of the right way to go, but its what we have to do to match old timber to new ( used ) recycled jarrah boards with already a dozen or more nailholes per length before we add the ones we need. 
In light of trying to find a jarrah type paint colour that doesnt look crap I may just paint the verandah a medium to dark grey.
Husband is getting around like a cripple with a seriously debilitating  foot condition so most of it I am doing myself.

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