# Forum More Stuff At the end of the day  Donald Trump.....

## PlatypusGardens

.....is.....president....    :Shock:    
Yeh?   :Confused:

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## PlatypusGardens

Yeh ok not yet....officially.....but he will be

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## chrisp

I for one am somewhat perplexed by the US election result. I wondered what the American voters were thinking??? Then I realised that they probably weren't!!!   :Rolleyes:  
Oh well, it'll be interesting times. Such is the tapestry of life.  :Smilie:

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## PlatypusGardens

It was still very close.
And don't forget that Hillary got more "popular votes" than Trumpy... 
As for "what were they thinking" 
1) A woman can't be president
2) We don't trust Hillary
3) We want someone "in touch with the working class" 
While #3 may seem like a stretch, given Trump's billionaire tycoon status, he's a businessman, and in many people's eyes, more "in touch" than someone who's been in politics for over 30 years.   
It will indeed be interesting to see what happens.
What is also interesting is all the leaders and politicians congratulating him and saying that they "look forward to working with" him, when in reality they're all crapping themselves wondering what the hell is gonna happen. 
But such is politics.
2-faced puppets sucking up to eachother.
(And unfortunately everyone sucks up to USA.)   
I'm gonna miss Obama  :Sigh: 
He was the most "normal" world leader in a long time.     :Smilie:

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## johnc

I think the US electors just put the world on a roller coaster and it will be four years before we get off.

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## Uncle Bob

Where's Marc these days, I thought this one would bring him outta the woodwork  :Smilie:

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## Uncle Bob

I reckon Trump will have more backbone than our PM who screwed up the NBN (likely under orders) and doesn't have the spine to come out and put it right.

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## PlatypusGardens

It's probably good for things to be shaken up a bit.
Hopefully most of the power will lay with the advisors and staff rather than the over-combed one.    :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Give him a go I guess. No other choice. 4 years or until some nutter plucks him off before. Be interesting to see how he goes as he has control over the senate too. Unlike Obama. That poor bugger hand his hands tied for 8 years.

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## Bros

Don't blame me as I never voted for him.

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## barnes

> Give him a go I guess. No other choice. 4 years or until some nutter plucks him off before. Be interesting to see how he goes as he has control over the senate too. Unlike Obama. That poor bugger hand his hands tied for 8 years.

   He can be impeached a bit earlier. Let's hope for the best.
 But in the meantime - it's a tragedy.  :Frown:  Populist N2 has been elected.  :Frown:

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## Bedford

I guess that means he'll be sitting at the same desk Monica was under................

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## Bros

> Where's Marc these days, I thought this one would bring him outta the woodwork

  He left for the US to be part of the Trumpet celebrations.

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## PlatypusGardens

> I reckon Trump will have more backbone than our PM

  
.....which one.......?  
any of the past 3 or 5 yeh?  :Rolleyes:   
Still waiting for the heads which were going to roll after the botched Sensis, not to mention the shirtfronting....    
Politics is an absolute joke and an insult to those of us on the ground who live in the real world.
Sometimes I almost think dictatorship or communism would be a better choice than "democracy" (term used loosely)  
......at least then, we'd all live our lives knowing nothing we do (like vote) will change anything...     :Rofl5:

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## OBBob

> i for one am somewhat perplexed by the us election result. I wondered what the american voters were thinking???

  
brexit

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## intertd6

> I think the US electors just put the world on a roller coaster and it will be four years before we get off.

   Don't worry your going to be burnt to a crisp from climate change & have worr*i*ed yourself into an early grave before his time is up anyhow.
inter

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## barnes

> brexit

   Brexit was a good thing, trump isn't.  :Frown:

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## phild01

Poor Americans, their choices were lousy.....not much chop here either.

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## barnes

> Still waiting for the heads which were going to roll after the botched Sensis, not to mention the shirtfronting....    
> Politics is an absolute joke and an insult to those of us on the ground who live in the real world.
> Sometimes I almost think dictatorship or communism would be a better choice than "democracy" (term used loosely)  
> ......at least then, we'd all live our lives knowing nothing we do (like vote) will change anything...

   The big difference is that under dictatorship or even more under communism you might not have a life to live at all. Life costs close to nothing. In democracy you have a much better chance to die in your own bed from natural causes like old age. 
You know why cancer is not a big problem in Africa or under commie regimes - people just not live that long to develop cancer.  :Frown:

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## PlatypusGardens

> You know why cancer is not a big problem in Africa or under commie regimes - people just not live that long to develop cancer.

  .....and that's a bad thing?

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## PlatypusGardens

> brexit

  
The EU was a good concept...in theory.....as was Brexit.  
time will tell   
things are changing
a lot
everywhere  
or maybe they'll stay the same....who knows?   :Smilie:

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## barnes

> .....and that's a bad thing?

  Yes it's pretty bad to die young.  :Frown:

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## Spottiswoode

> 4 years or until some nutter plucks him off before.

   I suspect most of the nutters that might carry this out are on his side. Much more likely that Hilary was going to get JFK'd

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## OBBob

> The EU was a good concept...in theory.....as was Brexit.

  Hmm. I wasn't commenting on of it was good or bad, more that it was an unexpected result.

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## PlatypusGardens

> Hmm. I wasn't commenting on of it was good or bad, more that it was an unexpected result.

  
Yep, I got that.
Just put my $0.02 in as always hehe

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## barnes

> Hmm. I wasn't commenting on of it was good or bad, more that it was an unexpected result.

  It was expected by some.  :Smilie:

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## PlatypusGardens

So the latest is that they're gonna build the wall and even though Mexico isn't paying for it, they're gonna make them pay for it once it's built   :Rofl5:

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## PlatypusGardens



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## PlatypusGardens

Ah here's the clip I was looking for.

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## sol381

wish i could do that..build a house or deck for someone even they they dont want it and get them to still pay for it.

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## ringtail

That's gun a be a @@@@@ wall. He's not even buttering the perps

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## johnc

A tarif on Mexican imports means the US consumer pays for it,  40% of the materials used come from the US in the first place so this is going to hurt everyone, another pile of Trump @@@@@@@@

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## Spottiswoode

I like that they will pay in some form, probably very complicated. Most likely so complicated that the US president can't understand that they haven't really paid for anything at all.

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## woodbe

Not a good look. 
There has been a long standing relationship between the Mexico and the US. The border is long and has had many people illegally cross it since the border was proclaimed in 1848. ~2000km is in the middle of the Rio Grande and the Colorado Rivers, so about 1000km of wall on land is apparently to be built at the cost to the Mexicans by adding tax to products made in Mexico exported to the US.  
Who pays for the wall? The US citizens who buy product made in Mexico of course. 
What would a rational and reasonable outcome if a wall between two countries was required? The expectation would be that both countries meet and decide the wall is required and agree to pay their share and try to get along. Having one President tell another country to pay for his own one sided decision is just dumb and insulting to the other country. International relationships with the US is heading down the toilet.

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## Bros

And all the immigration bans he put on Saudi Arabia was not on the list where the majority of the 9/11 terrorists came from.

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## commodorenut

What doesn't make sense, is that he's "all about America" yet a huge amount of product that comes from Mexico is actually done so by giant US corporates who built factories in Mexico to take advantage of the cheap labour.  He's going to really pi$$ off those corporates.

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## r3nov8or

Lots of things won't make sense.

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## johnc

> And all the immigration bans he put on Saudi Arabia was not on the list where the majority of the 9/11 terrorists came from.

   As well as the funding, but then he has business interests there, none though in countries on the banned list that so far haven't really been a risk to the US

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## manofaus

so america only produce 40% of the oil they need...  
So do you think the oil companies in the US would be grumbling about trump?
What about the voters who can't afford the fuel to run the*ir* trucks?

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## Cecile

Holy crap, this man frightens me. I'm a dual national Yank (ex-Yank, really) and Jewish.  My father was a Holocaust survivor.  The parallels are incredibly scary.  I am nervous, as are a lot of my friends and family.  Sure, let's have change but like this???  So help me, if I did not have a very elderly mother in New York, I'd never set foot in the country again.

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## johnc

We are heading over in a couple of months to spend time with family, this visa business is idiotic, the directive is less than clear, assuming you can do the electronic version there seems to be early confusion over the need to have a face to face interview although that now seems unlikely. A lot of the American side of our family are also troubled by Trump and this inexperienced cohort he has brought in around him, along with the bellicose attitude to countries like China, Germany, Arab countries in general (except those he has business interests in) Mexico etc. He seems to be dragging the world towards a trade war and through inexperience may well tip off worse than that. There are many making comparisons with the rhetoric and attitudes of the 1930's although back then leaders couldn't indulge themselves in twitter tantrums and this one seems to have literacy issues and difficulty with the spoken word. ISIS must be rubbing their hands together Trump is a propaganda gift for them.

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## pharmaboy2

Check your info johnc - my friend who travels to the states many times per year, said nothing has changed for Australians - seems to be a load of fake news stories going around re this

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## woodbe

Trump wants to boost fossil fuels instead of alternative energy, but he seems to have no idea:   https://www.statista.com/chart/7772/...wer-generatio/

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## Bros

> he seems to have no idea:

  I'll agree with this part.

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## toooldforthis

> Holy crap, this man frightens me. I'm a dual national Yank (ex-Yank, really) and Jewish.  My father was a Holocaust survivor.  The parallels are incredibly scary.  I am nervous, as are a lot of my friends and family.  Sure, let's have change but like this???  So help me, if I did not have a very elderly mother in New York, I'd never set foot in the country again.

  I have to say I am a bit confused about it at the moment. 
I think he is an inarticulate boofhead, as opposed to the articulate do-nothings we are used to. 
But watching the news (MSM) today it is all anecdote and no facts which seems to be fanning the fear.
the stories start out with  saying this and that, eg dual nationalities affected, only to find out later they are not.
stories of people being detained only to find they are held up by long interviews and then let through. 
sure, the policy is inconsistant (eg no restrictions on Saudi Arabia) and badly implemented with no transition, but the media would help a lot if they reported the facts.
For instance I did find one article that showed that the draft policy was drawn up by the Obama administration, just not signed off.

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## toooldforthis

here's a few links if you want to read around the issue and not just watch the 6o'clock news
but, as I said above, I have no idea what is really going on.  https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/01/29/...ent-litigation  

> Approximately 80 million international travelers enter the United States every year. Yesterday, less than one percent of the more than 325,000 international air travelers who arrive every day were inconvenienced while enhanced security measures were implemented. These individuals went through enhanced security screenings and are being processed for entry to the United States, consistent with our immigration laws and judicial orders.

  https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov...united-nations  

> July 25, 2011
> Presidential Proclamation--Suspension of Entry of Aliens Subject to United Nations Security Council Travel Bans and International Emergency Economic Powers Act Sanctions

  https://theconservativetreehouse.com...as-own-policy/  

> President Trump is not suspending visas from countries his team selected, they are simply suspending visa approval from countries President Obama selected.@ Additionally, Trump is suspending ALL visa applications from those countries – nothing to do with Muslim applications.
> • In 2013 President Obama suspended refugees from Iraq for six months.@ • In 2015 Congress passed, and Obama signed, a law restricting visas from states of concern; • and in 2016 Obama’s DHS, Jeh Johnson, expanded those restrictions.@ …. all President Trump is doing is taking the same action as Obama 2013, and applying Visa restrictions to the nation states Obama selected in 2015 and 2016

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## PhilT2

> Check your info johnc - my friend who travels to the states many times per year, said nothing has changed for Australians - seems to be a load of fake news stories going around re this

  Appears to me that the Visa interview waiver has been suspended (Sect 8a); can't see anything that says that does not apply to Aussies. If all tourists have to go through an interview to get a visa then a backlog could be expected until more staff are available to handle the workload. Expect the tourism operators in the US to start squealing if it starts to affect their business.

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## pharmaboy2

> Appears to me that the Visa interview waiver has been suspended (Sect 8a); can't see anything that says that does not apply to Aussies. If all tourists have to go through an interview to get a visa then a backlog could be expected until more staff are available to handle the workload. Expect the tourism operators in the US to start squealing if it starts to affect their business.

  There is no Visa for Austrlain travelers to the US and about 30 other countries.  The wouldn't mention Aussies because Aussies don't need a visa to visit the US

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## johnc

> There is no Visa for Austrlain travelers to the US and about 30 other countries.  The wouldn't mention Aussies because Aussies don't need a visa to visit the US

  You are not correct, Aussies need a Visa to travel to the U.S. and have for some time. It is an online application and usually processes quite easily with the Visa issuing in minutes. At the moment I have mine but there is a glitch on my wife's. The Visa I hold is good for 24 months according to the paperwork, the last one I applied for I thought was only twelve. Anyway at the moment US officials are flying blind as is the rest of the world. It is a real cock up because it hasn't been vetted at any point. Someone alluded to Obama's list, that comment is attributed to Trump, I suspect the Lilly has been well and truly guilded on that point, there was restrictions post 9/11 and following other flash points but this clearly has just been pushed through without any consultation with those who have to enforce it.

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## PhilT2

(a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions. 
This is Section 8a of the executive order, note it says "all individuals seeking a non-immigrant visa undergo an in person interview". Seems to me the rules changed yesterday, can't find any details on exemptions.

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## johnc

Given the number of people flying into the US on a daily basis I doubt they have the resources to do face to face interviews with every visitor at their foreign consulates and embassies, Julie Bishop appears to be trying to get us back to where we were before but this is government by idiot, there is no procedural competence, no understanding of effect and absolutely no planning or consultation, wonder how long this will go on for.

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## pharmaboy2

> You are not correct, Aussies need a Visa to travel to the U.S. and have for some time. It is an online application and usually processes quite easily with the Visa issuing in minutes. At the moment I have mine but there is a glitch on my wife's. The Visa I hold is good for 24 months according to the paperwork, the last one I applied for I thought was only twelve. Anyway at the moment US officials are flying blind as is the rest of the world. It is a real cock up because it hasn't been vetted at any point. Someone alluded to Obama's list, that comment is attributed to Trump, I suspect the Lilly has been well and truly guilded on that point, there was restrictions post 9/11 and following other flash points but this clearly has just been pushed through without any consultation with those who have to enforce it.

  "The Visa Waiver Program (VWP) enables nationals of certain countries to travel to the United States for tourism or business (visitor visa purposes) for stays of 90 days or less without obtaining a visa." 
From uptodate Apply for a U.S. Visa | Visa Waiver Program - Australia (English) 
Another example, read the abc article   Melbourne boy with Australian-Iranian citizenship denied US visa for school trip after Donald Trump&#039;s executive order - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) 
"But having dual Australian and Iranian citizenship meant he was ineligible for the Visa Waiver Program, which allows other Australian citizens to stay in the US for 90 days without obtaining a visa." 
VIsa Waiver program - what do you think the word "waiver" means? 
Perhaps you are needing to travel longer than 90 days, I don't know, but both the official site for US travel and a reputable news site are making it perfectly clear that Aussies (who don't have dual nationality with one of the 7 countries) do not require a visa for stays less than 90 days.   
There is no interview process except for people who require a visa. 
I am not defending the policy btw, just trying to shed some facts

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## pharmaboy2

> Given the number of people flying into the US on a daily basis I doubt they have the resources to do face to face interviews with every visitor at their foreign consulates and embassies, Julie Bishop appears to be trying to get us back to where we were before but this is government by idiot, there is no procedural competence, no understanding of effect and absolutely no planning or consultation, wonder how long this will go on for.

  The very large majority of visitors would be from the EU, Japan, Aus, Canada etc etc, but at this stage for the rest it goes on for 90 0r 120 days, and clearly hasn't been thought through - who'd have thunk it 
Edit - there seems to be confusion between the "visa waiver program" and "visa interview waiver program". - they are actually different and apply to different countries and different passports

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## johnc

Ok so some people can do a Google search, the visa waiver program doesn't allow you to just front up, you need an ESTA approval prior to travel, so you don't get a slip of paper pasted into your passport you apply for an electronic system for travel authorisation, a form of visa only it is electronic and attached electronically to your passport. Will these continue to process normally or will they have some fail to process as in my spouses case, when they fail will the havoc currently prevailing cause problems in these being issued, we have to wait and see. However I understand no ESTA no entry. One thing for certain is that this is a mess of the US administration's making.

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## r3nov8or

"A cautionary tale about a brutal, amoral dictator has evidently felt relevant to people lately"  Amazon Sells Out Of George Orwell's 1984 | Gizmodo Australia

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## r3nov8or



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## Marc

Yes, it's amazing how the left that claims exclusive ownership of high moral ground, and that posess a series of crystal balls they consult with great alacrity, are now running around like a chook without a head. Makes me extremely happy. 
The UK was first with brexit, now it's Trump and we will be next. Welcome Pauline Hanson. May be Grexit and Italy-chao and Spain-saludos will beat us. Who knows.  
 The age of the vocal minority demanding their odd view of the world be enforced and paid for by those who disagree with them whilst they also feed and house them, has come to an end. And not too soon.  
We are at war yet refuse to define and name the enemy. Odd indeed. Can we win a war whilst sipping caffe latte and pretend the soft porn exibition downtown and the so called marriage legislation and the national safe schools framework has merit? ... Probably Not. Can we be at war and at the same time invite the enemy in our country as a so called refugee? Definitely not.  
For those who have never been in a war, this may come as a surprise, but the first thing that is needed when one is at war is to know who the enemy is, what the enemy does and want, and make sure we all have a unanimous response and plan of action and a leader that is on the ball. 
Unfortunately we don't have any of the above for now. The US has voted a leader that has a clear vision for America. We voted a labour at heart that pretends to be liberal and is neither. 
Fortunately his pathetic days are numbered and he will go to enjoy a 6 figure pension for life funded by those odd people who actually work.  
We live in interesting times. 
PS
In relation to the so called ban on muslims ... consider the following: The ban is on 7 countries that support terrorism not on "muslims". THe ban does not mention religion in any form. The largest muslim countries India and Indonesia are not banned and neither are hundred of other countries whose predominant religion is islam. 
However something that the raving lunatics in the media forgot to mention is that 6 out of the 7 countries in the list have a permanent ban on jews entering the country. Permanent not temporary, and based on religion, not terrorism. 
The media on the left has never been so pathetic ... mm ... let me rephrase. It has always been pathetic.

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## r3nov8or

Marc! Where ya been? Getting Trump elected? and then you came back!

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## Marc

DT does not need me, he is doing fine on his own. 
I do get some of his emails from time to time after i sent a few emails to him last year before the elections inviting him to a coffee  :Smilie:  
And by the way ... the list of the 7 countries was compiled by Obama and ban on visas to foreigners from enemy countries is a common practice  and done repeatedly by many previous presidents including obama.

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## johnc

Good grief Marc, out of hibernation!

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## Bros

The biggest terrorism threat to Americans are American.

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## SilentButDeadly

> The biggest terrorism threat to Americans are American.

  Who are these Americans of which you speak? I see 50 nations stuck together with silly putty.

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## Bros

> Who are these Americans of which you speak? I see 50 nations stuck together with silly putty.

  All those lunatics with easy access to guns have killed over 10,000 per year.

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## johnc

> All those lunatics with easy access to guns have killed over 10,000 per year.

  About 20,000 will suicide by gun, gun injuries I think are around 30000+ per year. if you add up all American deaths as a result of war the toll is still under those killed at home by a fellow American with a gun. I think rather than ban those countries on their list from entry they should kick gun owning Americans out, Syria might take them and let those without firearms enter to improve safety. Weird isn't it, you need a gun for protection, how does that work when you need protection from yourself, next on the list is family murdered by gun owners, sobering statistics.

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## Bros

Be interesting what Trump does when the next mass shooting happens as the NRA who supported him wants NO change whatsoever in gun laws. Proberbly just a case of tut tut.

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## pharmaboy2

Melbourne schoolboy granted entry to space camp in United States following travel ban - 9news.com.au 
Upshot, Australians with dual passports, also Canadians, and British will all be able to travel to the US under existing arrangements, so rightfully, the Melbourne schoolboy of Iranian parents will be able to go the US as per his plans.

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## Spottiswoode

> The biggest terrorism threat to Americans are American.

  They don't seem to get this, I'm not sure that many Australians get it either. The more you single out terrorists by promoting hate amongst a particular nation or religion, the more the terrorists have something to target you for.

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## pharmaboy2

> They don't seem to get this, I'm not sure that many Australians get it either. The more you single out terrorists by promoting hate amongst a particular nation or religion, the more the terrorists have something to target you for.

  The question is, does being passive then solve it? 
See, that's the issue, you are dealing with extremists who have God on their side - if the infidel fights back, they are winning, if the infidel ignores you, you are emboldened - that outcome is what many blame 911 on - America took a back seat following Nigeria and other attacks, this simply gave Al-Qaeda (remember them) more confidence and the need to do something bigger against the weak west. 
You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. 
Gun control is a seperate issue - comparing terrorism with gun crime, is like comparing cancer deaths with road accidents - too different to be  even on the same page

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## r3nov8or

... except the Thread title is Donald Trump, so pretty much anything "American craziness" is fair game now  :Smilie:

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## Marc

Absolutely agree with pharma.
The biggest problem with the islamic war is that we pretend not to be at war. We even pretend that Islam is not the enemy. This are "lone wolfs", deranged individuals who one day got out of bed, and decided to go on a killing spree. The fact that they are indoctrinated from birth that we are the enemy plays no role ... oh no no no, those are figures of speech, nothing to do with it.  
The reality is that islam is not just a religion but a political system that was originally designed to unify a myriad of arab war lord killing each other a few thousand years ago. Today it is a political tool used to conquer nations and force individuals. Sure it is _also_ a religion.  
To pretend we can sing kumbaya with the enemy at home and kill them in their country is so stupid that it is beyond comprehension. It is just as stupid as dethrone tyrants in nations that have been ruled by tyrants for centuries and establish a "democracy" instead. Oh yes ... how is that working for them? Sadam, Gadhafi and the rest of the joint merit medals not the noose. They were the antibody to the infection. The Russians got it spot on! 
Those are not western countries and therefore have their own rules, leave them alone killing each other and they will not come here. If they come here, squash them. Simple. Now we have removed the lid and let the poison out. Oh yes but we have established a democracy ... are you for real?

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## Bros

> Gun control is a seperate issue - comparing terrorism with gun crime, is like comparing cancer deaths with road accidents - too different to be  even on the same page

  The end result is the same.

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## pharmaboy2

> The end result is the same.

  Maybe for you, but for me, American gun crime doesn't effect my day to day life, however terrorism and the responses to it, effect my life - most commonly in hotels and flights.  The effects are pervasive and global, even for the middle class American, they are in no real danger from guns, nor a terrorist attack, but ongoing security, loss of privacy certainly has an effect

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## johnc

> The question is, does being passive then solve it? 
> See, that's the issue, you are dealing with extremists who have God on their side - if the infidel fights back, they are winning, if the infidel ignores you, you are emboldened - that outcome is what many blame 911 on - America took a back seat following Nigeria and other attacks, this simply gave Al-Qaeda (remember them) more confidence and the need to do something bigger against the weak west. 
> You are damned if you do and damned if you don't. 
> Gun control is a seperate issue - comparing terrorism with gun crime, is like comparing cancer deaths with road accidents - too different to be  even on the same page

  I think you need to work on your metaphors, there is a strong link between gun availability and gun deaths. So flooding hot spots with small arms to help those we like to attack those we don't simply leads to more deaths. Same in a civil society a high incidence of firearms and a strong gun culture in which we condone gun deaths if in defence of whatever reason we like then we are inviting the unhinged to create havoc. In America the gun is a status symbol, an accessory, something to be proud of, something you can show off with. In Australia it is pretty much just a tool, locked away when not required, this is the fundamental reason why we have low gun deaths, attitude. 
We are quick to attempt to put reasons into why terrorists do things, the leadership of these groups have their agendas and attacking the west to have them strike back played into the terrorists hands creating ISIS, Al Qaeda was created out of the proxy war between Russia and America in Afghanistan. Terrorists are just nutters hitting back against perceived injustice, really their logic may not differ that much from those that hit back against a religion caught up in terrorism as Islam has found itself, racked by divisions and past hurts it is a fertile place for trouble. 
We need to think back to what actually creates stable societies if we want to restore peace, a continual cycle of killing gets us nowhere, the UN amongst others realises we need reasonable living conditions, housing, clean water and adequate food. We would also like access to healthcare and education as well as an even roll of the dice to gain useful employment and income. Societies tend to be happier when there are not big differences in wealth, Egypt is a good case in point with a large class of underemployed poor and a small wealthy ruling class, the tensions this creates continue to destabilise that country. War and mayhem are something we fill our time with until we get so sick and tired of it we look for peace, however if the country has had its infrastructure and economy destroyed any peace will be fraught and short lived if lives don't improve. That is the conundrum of the middle east, to rebuild countries and shattered lives we need serious money and commitment, we need the protagonists to stop killing and work together, we need political and economic structures that distribute wealth and power  evenly through the country, we need to do this before disadvantage spurs another cycle of violence. Most importantly this can't be imposed as was done to Iraq after the second gulf war it has to be driven internally but requires outside support. Irag is slowly getting back under control but remains a powder keg of misery and disadvantage that could implode at any time.  
You are right in saying damned if we do and damned if we don't, however pouring money in to help rebuild gave both Japan and Germany stability and economic growth after WW2, the only way we are going to see an improvement is if hostilities cease and everyone works towards peace and to maintain peace the population needs to be seeing things moving forward so that momentum is maintained. 
Trumps America has no idea, Bush Mk2 acknowledged the early mistakes made in Iraq and both he and the later Obama administration began working on local autonomy with US and world assistance,  mind you birth control keeping a lid on world population wouldn't go astray. 
Of course the newly coined alt right  with its alternative facts and denial of responsibility along with lack of ability to tell the truth or even attempt to be truthful paints a different picture so for awhile I think we are stuffed. Once the right wingers stop blindly reading far right propaganda and spewing it out along with a distorted political reality we can only hope that others will also begin to show some intellectual maturity and discus things based on facts not emotion, something that may never happen but we might see from America a rejection of Trump chaos and see them again return to views along the lines of their founding fathers rather than the rantings of a mantoddler supported by unqualified cabinet picks and the power hungry. Trump found a space he could exploit as a result of partisan division between their two major political parties, and possibly in both parties cases they failed to attract the right people to political leadership, and that is why we should get involved in our local political parties, we don't worry about politics until it isn't working and there simply isn't enough grass roots involvement at the moment to limit the loony tunes getting seats in Parliament.

----------


## Marc

> I think you need to work on your metaphors, there is a strong link between gun availability and gun deaths.

  Rubbish.
Switzerland has the highest number of guns per capita and they have no issue with gun crime, not more than us anyway. Restricting legal gun ownership achieves nothing and is not the solution to gun crime. It is a cultural issue in America. The Czech republic has a high gun ownership, you can get semiauto guns, and you can even get fully auto with a special license and carry concealed weapons for defense. No big gun crime issues there, and there are many other examples. 
Howard's semi auto ban achieved nothing at all, and the harassment legit gun owners are subject by the police achieves nothing in relation to black market guns availability. 
Gun control just like open borders and kumbaya are the pet of the left and as almost everything to do with the left are utter rubbish.

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## pharmaboy2

Terrorism is manifestly not about deaths, that's what I'm getting at. 
There is also a tendency amongst the left ideologically to ascribe different motivations to terrorists than they ascribe themselves.  Not taking someone's word for what they are doing and why they are doing it, is motivated reasoning. 
Whenever you use the terms untruths, liars, alternative facts, what you are in danger of doing is taking your own opinion and aligning it with truth, perhaps a quote is on order 
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."

----------


## Marc

Pharma, you are wrong there, the left owns the truth and the high moral ground. Everyone else is a dinosaur and wrong.
Yet they have no issues living off the bad right that makes the money they so eagerly want to spend on "refugee" programs that will be housed in Fairfield ... that's right no one goes to Bondi or Glebe or Newtown
Oh so pathetic!

----------


## johnc

> Terrorism is manifestly not about deaths, that's what I'm getting at. 
> There is also a tendency amongst the left ideologically to ascribe different motivations to terrorists than they ascribe themselves.  Not taking someone's word for what they are doing and why they are doing it, is motivated reasoning. 
> Whenever you use the terms untruths, liars, alternative facts, what you are in danger of doing is taking your own opinion and aligning it with truth, perhaps a quote is on order 
> "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth."

  Do you think so, there would be multiple reasons why people join these organisations, however commentators on all sides are prone to repeat things they have read recently, comments can often be linked back to articles or views of those they favour. Nothing new in that, however if I see my car suddenly explode into flame for no clear reason then what I see is a burning car and that is a fact and what I hear is the sound of materials burning and that is not an opinion, however if you use quotation marks you should foot note who you took the quote from, if not why use quotation marks? 
Look we need to be careful in what we write when we are simply regurgitating an edited selection of what we read and be especially sceptical of what we read of the side we lean towards. Equally I think it is time those repeating the more extreme ends of the political spectrum began to realise in many cases they are using hyperbole and distortion. 
look at Marcs comparison with guns and Switzerland, he makes no mention of the fact you cannot carry firearms unsecured, there are no open carry laws, there are heavy restrictions on ammunition and although street deaths from firearms are very low they do have a higher rate of family shootings and suicides from firearms. Yet he mentions only firearms in the population nothing else. Although culture is part of it, if you shoot someone in self defence in Switzerland you can and almost certainly will be up on charges as there is no self defence loop hole. we can take opposing sides or we can look for common ground and go from there, the later is preferable to the former.

----------


## Marc

MT thinks he can play both cards, the refugee bleeding heart and the chest beating tough on borders all at the same time. 
Give me a Donald Trump anytime rather than any of our bleating career politicians. They turn my stomach ... where is the best place for me to throw up?

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## sol381

No point in saying something once when you can say it twice.

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## SilentButDeadly

@bros
It's okay. American life is cheap. And affordable too!

----------


## Bros

> It's okay. American life is cheap. And affordable too!

  Affordable, no idea but life in all civilised societies is not cheap.

----------


## r3nov8or

Describe DT in one word (be 'nice'). I'll go first : 
Polarising

----------


## PhilT2

Narcissistic

----------


## pharmaboy2

Buffoon

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## r3nov8or

Fired

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## Marc

Marc,
Week two is in the books and President Trump is showing no sign of slowing down. He is working hard moving full steam ahead to Make America Great Again and drain the Washington D.C. swamp. 
The Administration is working hard to accomplish campaign promises dealing with healthcare, the economy, government ethics, and more. One of the major items being tackled is improving our immigrant screening process. 
Part of this work is to address our inadequate immigration vetting procedures. To ensure American safety the President imposed a temporary travel ban on 7 countries known for training, harboring and export terrorism. One of the major projects being undertaken is improving the vetting process for those entering the United States. This travel ban is not about religion - this is about keeping our country safe. 
There are over 40 majority Muslim countries worldwide that are not affected by this order. The White House will again be issuing visas to all countries once the Administration has reviewed and implemented the more secure policies over the next 90 days.  
Nominating A Well Qualified Pick For The Supreme Court 
President Trump has announced his nominee to fill the ninth seat of the Supreme Court. Judge Neil Gorsuch has built a nationally respected and distinguished judicial record and reputation. Gorsuch is a well qualified pick to uphold our Constitution and be a worthy successor to the late Justice Scalia, but don't take our word for it - SEE WHAT THE CRITICS ARE SAYING. 
Advocating for Lower Medical Costs & More Medical Jobs in the U.S.  
This week, President Trump met with pharmaceutical executives at the White House. US drug companies have produced extraordinary results for our country, but the pricing has been astronomical for our citizens. During the meeting, President Trump, focused on cutting regulations to encourage drug companies to bring back operations and jobs to The United States.
Putting Ethics Into Practice And Draining The Swamp 
President Trump wasted no time creating an executive order that will make every appointee in every executive agency sign an ethics pledge. By signing this pledge, these people are not allowed to engage in lobbying activities within 5 years of leaving their post and are not allowed to accept any gifts from registered lobbyists or lobbying organization. The days of cashing in on your political network and influence are limited, and President Trump is starting this practice right in his own administration. 
Reducing Regulations - Big League 
On Monday, President Donald Trump signed an executive order that he said will “dramatically reduce federal regulations” on businesses. The President's executive order mandates that for every new regulation implemented by federal agencies, two existing regulations must be cut. The goal is to end the damaging effects of over-regulation on our small businesses, our economy and our entrepreneurial spirit. President Trump wants all Americans to know that the American dream is back, and we’re going to create an environment for small business like we haven’t had in many, many decades. 
Supporting Our Troops 
President Trump traveled to Dover Air Force Base on Wednesday to pay respects to a fallen hero, SEAL Team 6 member, Chief Petty Officer William "Ryan" Owens. President Trump was honored to be there for the dignified transfer and give thanks for his sacrifice. Owens took part in a daring raid that the Administration resulted in valuable intelligence that will protect American lives. “What he did for this nation and what we got out of the mission I believe will save lives,” said Press Secretary Sean Spicer.
In sum, Donald Trump’s first priority remains to protect and serve our Country while seeking out pragmatic ways to help those in need. And in doing so, First Amendment liberties of religious freedom and expression will not be compromised. 
Join us in supporting President Trump as he signs and enforces constitutional executive orders to make America great again. 
Team Trump-Pence

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## toooldforthis

> Narcissistic

  Malignant Narcissist I believe is the correct psych term

----------


## Bros

> Marc,
> Week two is in the books and President Trump is showing no sign of slowing down. He is working hard moving full steam ahead to Make America Great Again.

  I really don't like that term as they is what The Fuhrer use to repeatedly say.

----------


## johnc

Buffoon, for Marc's information his hard working hero is about to take a holiday two weeks into his stint as president at a cost to taxpayers of 3 million, in any other job he would be sacked for goofing off. When Obama took a day off after around 190 days the republicans had a melt down.

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## Marc

LAST year brought a revolution in politics, with the rise of Trump, Brexit and third-party electoral success in Australia. Across the globe, outsiders are rebelling against the political establishment by throwing arrogant insiders onto the scrap heap of public life........
.....Australian politics has become a parallel universe. 
The insiders (representing no more than 10 per cent of society) are mainly cultural producers, working in the media, advertising, design, arts and education industries — as well as politics. 
Among the other 90 per cent there’s genuine rancour about this elite domination of information and culture.  
With rising levels of education and prosperity, people don’t want to be told how to live their lives — what to say and how to think. They want the freedom to be self-reliant and self-governing. 
This was the strange thing about the last 12 months of Baird’s premiership: in his decision to ban greyhound racing and support Safe Schools he looked more like a Greens leader than a sensible conservative. 
Make no mistake: the revolt of the outsiders in Australia is a revolt against the cultural producers. In the US, Trump won by mobilising the votes of the forgotten people: hard working white men hostile to the segregationism of identity politics. 
Something similar is happening in Australia.  
In the outer suburbs, gender politics is poison, and not just among men. The women I know see themselves as outsiders. 
They hate the Left-feminist obsession with female victimhood and the way in which it talks down to women and girls, lowering their horizons in life. 
In the real world of the Australian workforce, these women don’t regard themselves as victims of discrimination. If anything, their gender has been an asset in securing promotions. 
If anyone has tried to hold them back, it has been other women, not men. 
Outsider politics is on the march. Having woken from their democratic slumber, voters in the suburbs and regions have the numbers and are using them with devastating effect.  
The question for Canberra is not if the Outsider Revolution will hit, but when and how. Both Labor and the Liberals are vulnerable. 
In Malcolm Turnbull and Bill Shorten they are led by out-of-touch PC devotees who have formed a unity ticket on the policies outsiders hate: high immigration, high taxation, identity politics and social engineering programs. 
As a duo, Shorten and Turnbull are the most unpopular party leaders in Australian history, making them ripe for third party insurgency. 
It’s simply a matter of time. 
Mark Latham

----------


## PhilT2

I forget who said this or who they were referring to but the quote was "I welcome the day when he produces his first original thought, anything this long in coming must be really significant"

----------


## woodbe

> In the US, Trump won by mobilising the votes of the forgotten people: hard working white men hostile to the segregationism of identity politics. 
> Mark Latham

  So Trump pulled in the ostracised white men, and sneaked in by a very few percent. If everyone in the US actually voted (~300million) there would have been a large difference and Trump would never have been voted in. The total votes counted was less than half of the population (134million). The bulk of the non-white, female, non-christians would vote against him and he'd be in the can. 
That is the simple answer as to why a Trump won't win in Australia, because firstly, we don't have a President, nor do we have an Electoral College system for that position. Secondly, every citizen is required to actually vote (Australia runs about 94% of the voting population)

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## r3nov8or

Hmm. He won in the USA system; the only one which counts for them. Musing about whether or not he'd win in other countries isn't relevant

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## Bros

> Hmm. He won in the USA system; the only one which counts for them. Musing about whether or not he'd win in other countries isn't relevant

  I agree as it wouldn't have made any difference but they have a great gerrymander but it doesn't affect the president election what did was lazy electors who complain about Trump but were to lazy to front up on election day. 
It will be interesting to see how long he lasts as the last president who went to war on the media was Richard Nixon and we see where it got him.  
As LBJ said "it is better to have your enemies in the tent pissing out than outside pissing in".

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## johnc

At least in Australia we vote on a Saturday making it easier to get to a polling booth, the U.S. votes on a Tuesday if you want a representative democracy that it not the way to encourage people to get to the booths particularly if they can't get time off work.

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## toooldforthis

> Hmm. He won in the USA system; the only one which counts for them. Musing about whether or not he'd win in other countries isn't relevant

  the thing is this is not just about Trump.
Trump is just a symptom - if the existing political classes and media hadn't behaved so badly over the last few decades there would not be the environment for a Trump to succeed to power.
Trumpetism isn't just in America. Many places exhibiting similar.
In Oz we have One Nation. Similar symptom for the same disease.

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## r3nov8or

> the thing is this is not just about Trump.
> ...

  Seems like you should start another thread not called Donald Trump, then

----------


## r3nov8or

> At least in Australia we vote on a Saturday making it easier to get to a polling booth, the U.S. votes on a Tuesday if you want a representative democracy that it not the way to encourage people to get to the booths particularly if they can't get time off work.

  Well a third of ours are postal votes, could be weeks before. Do they have postal votes? I simply haven't thought about that before...

----------


## commodorenut

One of my work colleagues from Texas said Hillary made a big mistake a long time back in the campaign, when she made mention of tightening gun controls.  She never touched on the subject again - but the damage was already done, and all the pro-gun/pro-freedom etc groups wouldn't let their members, and anyone else interested, forget what she said, and tried to leave in the past. 
He told me that had she not mentioned the subject, she may well have had enough votes, as he was quite willing to vote for her until his shooter's club reminded their members of the topic in a newsletter only a week or so before the polls.  Many of his friends, and colleagues, were all prepared to give her a go, but they figured Trump was a better option to keep their guns & freedom.

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## PhilT2

> Well a third of ours are postal votes, could be weeks before. Do they have postal votes? I simply haven't thought about that before...

  Yes, postal and early voting. Lots of politics around how the polls are run over there; voter suppression tactics are widespread; tactics like closing the booths in poor or student areas (both likely to be predominantly democrat) Requiring voter ID then making that ID slow,difficult or expensive to obtain is another favourite that adversely affects low income voters. Putting armed white supremacists outside polling booths in black neighbourhoods was popular in the past. 
The Republicans have been under a court order to not use voter suppression tactics for the last twenty years. Trump himself came close to breaching this and was subject to a separate court order but this was overturned on appeal.  Judge Issues Restraining Order Against Trump Campaign to Prevent Voter Intimidation | Mother Jones

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## Spottiswoode

He's in. He's got few screws loose, and too many enablers around him. 
The novelty is wearing off, get him out of our media please.

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## PlatypusGardens

I wouldn't be surprised if he gets bumped off one way or another before the 4 years is up. 
There really was a small, very small part of me that thought he would start acting differently once sworn in.
If anything he's gone more nuts than during the election race  :Shock:

----------


## Bros

> I wouldn't be surprised if he gets bumped off one way or another before the 4 years is up. 
> There really was a small, very small part of me that thought he would start acting differently once sworn in.
> If anything he's gone more nuts than during the election race

  Read something recently that he will be forced to go by his own republicans or he will walk away. He's at war with everyone but the extremists will still love him.

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## toooldforthis

> Read something recently that he will be forced to go by his own republicans or he will walk away. He's at war with everyone but the extremists will still love him.

  Maybe, but that was true right through the republican nomination process and the election campaign

----------


## PlatypusGardens

So.....so if the president's wife is the first lady..... if Hillary had become president.... What would that have made Bill?
The first [what]? 
Lord?
Man?
Husband?   :Rofl5:

----------


## johnc

> So.....so if the president's wife is the first lady..... if Hillary had become president.... What would that have made Bill?
> The first [what]? 
> Lord?
> Man?
> Husband?

  I seem to remember Julia Gillard's partner got the tag "first bloke" Bill could have been the presidents consort, to be honest perhaps it is time for those partner titles to go, they are a quaint relic of past times. First man, hmm, doesn't quite work does it.

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## chrisp

> First man, hmm, doesn't quite work does it.

  I wonder if the Australian vernacular would simplify it to 'Adam'.   :Smilie:

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## PlatypusGardens

> I wonder if the Australian vernacular would simplify it to 'Adam'.

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## PlatypusGardens

How good is this guy?
Shouts about fake news then makes all kinds of claims without anything to back it up. 
Can't wait to see what comes from this claim about Obama phone tapping Trump Tower  :Rofl5:

----------


## phild01

Felt compelled to write to Pauline last night about her admiration for Putin, just copying Trump!
Can't like her anymore :Confuzzled:

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## PlatypusGardens

> Can't like her anymore

  
"Anymore"? 
I never had any problems with not liking her ever.

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## johnc

+1, although this time I thought the vaccination slant was interesting, the government is a dictatorship for forcing parents to get their @@@@ together saving the lives of children in the process while Mr Putin is a hero even though he signed off on allowing a Russian missile launcher to fire at aircraft ultimately downing a civilian airliner with the loss of 35 Aussies, seems to arrange for the killing of political opponents, supresses the news, disappears journalists. I can really see why Aussies would like a strong man like Putin as leader, not! She seems to be copying Trump speak, that other unfiltered moron who spouts continual nonsense, perhaps they are made for each other. Mind you she does have her supporters here which says more for our press and pollies than it does for her bigotry and misinformation, she really doesn't bother to find out the truth much easier to sprout nonsense if you can get away with it.

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## phild01

This was a thing she could have done some light researching on.  Quite obvious Putin is a corrupt thug and murderer.  Very disappointing people such as Trump and her can look up to that type of leadership.

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## Marc

Yes johnc, so true ... voters are mugs. The voters that vote different than you that is.  
That's the downside of democracy, the majority rules, more or less. All those pesky ignorant voters that voted Trump! what an outrage! How dare they do different from what the famous artists told them to do? How could they pass on the opportunity to enthrone an elitist moron like Hillary? Unheard of.
And the upcoming Pauline Hanson? Now there is a political heresy if there ever was one ... 
The time of the political correctness, the green for hire, open borders and the global warming hysteria is over and not a moment too soon. 
We live in interesting times. And we vote.  :Smilie:  
PS
The best part of US elections is when the "artist" get together to prop up the democrat candidate of the moment. You get a tribe of marginal drug addicts, alcoholics, and degenerates that we pay to entertain us with lies and pretences telling the working person how to vote ... now that is the most hilarious part of the US elections.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

A lot of people voted against Hillary rather than for Trump.  
I wonder if America will ever have a female president.....?      
Pauline is nothing but a dumb racist.
There's nothing intelligent about her.
She has no agenda other than dividing people. 
Much like that clueless tart Jacquie Lambie.
Even when having her @rse handed to her on national TV she's too dumb to realise how dumb she is. 
Anyone who says stuff like "Ban all muslims" should not be allowed to have any power or a public voice.
Yet....they have plenty of followers and the more they keep fearmongering, the worse the situation gets. 
Yes, terrorists and attacks by muslim extremists are happening, but they people carrying out the attacks are a minority, and use the religion as their reason for what they do.
Saying "Ban all muslims" is the same as saying "All Germans are nazis" 
The world needs to work together to solve this issue.
Not segregating people even more. 
The likes of Trump, Hanson and Lambie definitely aren't the answer to the problem.

----------


## pharmaboy2

"Even when having her @rse handed to her on national TV she's too dumb to realise how dumb she is." 
lols. 
Vladamir is so obviously and clearly corrupt, it beggars belief that there are people is any sort of position of power who don't know it.   There should be a minimum IQ to get a vote

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## Marc

> There should be a minimum IQ to get a vote

  Mm ... that sounds a lot like qualified vote, when the more educated the voter the more the vote is worth. Fortunately democracy, the less bad of all the forms of government, is based on equality.    

> Anyone who says stuff like "Ban all muslims" should not be allowed to have any power or a public voice. Yet....they have plenty of followers and the more they keep fearmongering, the worse the situation gets.  Yes, terrorists and attacks by muslim extremists are happening, but they people carrying out the attacks are a minority, and use the religion as their reason for what they do. Saying "Ban all muslims" is the same as saying "All Germans are nazis"

  I am not sure who you refer to but if it is DT, just for the record, his ban is not a ban on muslims entering the nation, it is a _temporary_ ban on 9 countries that the CIA has found to support and fund terrorists. Sure, Terrorist happen to be muslims. They also happen to be men. So DT ban is mannophobic? Oh yes, they all have beards and black hair. This temporary measure is what any nation does to keep the enemy from entering their territory. Was done extensively during ww2. Indonesia and Malaysia are the largest muslim countries in the world and they are not banned.

----------


## PhilT2

The anti vaccine crowd do my head in. Anyone for a nice polio outbreak? Even worse is the related vaccines cause autism mob (Trump is one). The amount of research dollars wasted trying to convince these nutters their ideas have no substance could have provided real help for ASD kids.

----------


## johnc

Polio vaccines have almost eliminated polio, Pakistan and one other country I think in Africa have an odd case, we can thank Bill Gates and Rotary for that.

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## PhilT2

> Polio vaccines have almost eliminated polio, Pakistan and one other country I think in Africa have an odd case, we can thank Bill Gates and Rotary for that.

  Nigeria, where the polio vaccination program was going well until some nutter from the anti-vax mob told them the vaccine contained pigs blood. That always goes over well in a Muslim country.

----------


## johnc

The Taliban are the issue with Pakistan, Bin Laden was tracked down by operatives going door to door pretending to be polio vaccination workers. As a result polio workers became targets.  There is no link with autism, vaccinations in third world countries are paying big dividends in childhood mortality, productivity and education outcomes. We don't need the anti vax crowd who are generally concerned parents who have been sold a lie, we just need a bit of honesty, Pauline is pulling back her team may have got the message through that she has nothing to support her view.

----------


## r3nov8or

> ....
> Saying "Ban all muslims" is the same as saying "All Germans are nazis" 
> ..

  and the IRA were 'Catholics with a cause' but I don't recall our highly christian society accusing all Catholics of being terrorists.

----------


## PhilT2

> Pauline is pulling back her team may have got the message through that she has nothing to support her view.

  This is something Hanson and Trump have in common; a thought pops into their head and their mouth goes straight into action. The leader of One Nation in Qld  has previously made a strong statement supporting vaccines and having anti vax parents keep their pox infected sprogs out of our pre-schools. Pauline has never worried about evidence; she supports Senator Roberts wacky climate change and UN conspiracy theories. But she should at least try to have all members of her party with a consistent view on policy. Not that One Nation supporters take much notice of policy. 
Trump had the same problem the other morning; a thought popped into his head from somewhere and he felt obliged to tweet it immediately. Fact checking..who's got time for that? if he thinks Obama has bugged his phone then it's true. The fact that his own party has supported bugging just about everybody for ages isn't an issue. And the whole team is so dumb that they didn't realise that all Russian officials are constantly monitored.

----------


## woodbe

> it is a _temporary_ ban on 9 countries that the CIA has found to support and fund terrorists.

  *Cough* 
So Donald has banned the country that Bin Laden and his crew are based from? You know, the terrorists who ran planes into the twin towers? 
No he hasn't. Donald has investments in Saudi Arabia, so he isn't going to ban muslims from Saudi. Saudi is terrorism free. lol. 
Keep drinking the koolaid... 
The terrorists involved:  

> The *hijackers in the September 11 attacks* were 19 men affiliated with al-Qaeda. Fifteen of the 19 were citizens of Saudi Arabia, and the others were from the United Arab Emirates (2), Egypt, and Lebanon.[1]  The hijackers were organized into four teams, each led by a  pilot-trained hijacker with three or four "muscle hijackers," who were  trained to help subdue the pilots, passengers, and crew.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijack...ber_11_attacks

----------


## PhilT2

A report has been leaked recently that finds that the recent terror attacks eg boston bomber, have been done by people who have become radicalised after they arrived in the US. Trump has made the situation much worse by creating an environment that breeds mistreatment of immigrants and has become the best recruitment tool ISIS ever had.

----------


## Bros

There have been and still wil be a lot of white yanks who are terrorists. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind as well as the young bloke who shot people in the church and the deadbeats who killed a lot of people in the school and it goes on.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

Haha and today the phone tapping thing is forgotten as the travel ban is back.   :Rofl5:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> There have been and still wil be a lot of white yanks who are terrorists. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind as well as the young bloke who shot people in the church and the deadbeats who killed a lot of people in the school and it goes on.

  
Not only that, but not letting people in the country is gonna anger those with extremist views who are already there and could quite possibly lead to more attacks.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Marc

The problem with opinion from the general public on this topics is that most if not all have never been at war, and lack the concept in it's entirety.  
A good thing you say? Probably true until you are at war. And yes, war means at your doorstep, sending troops to a foreign nation does not mean the population is under attack. 
In Australia, politicians and media commentators alike, refuse to acknowledge this very fact that we are at war and are under attack within our borders.
 A nation or aspiring to nation has declared war on us. Until we can accept this fact and accept that we have enemies that want to kill us and that this are not "lone wolf" acts of solitary deranged people we will have a problem with those who try to combat them and defend us from them.  
Islam is not only a religion, it is a political concept and it is incompatible with western society if taken literally just like our old testament if applied literally would be incompatible with our modern laws and principles. It's not very hard really. 
Examples of such incompatibility abound and they are not only about kill the infidel, they are beat your wife, segregation of sexes, genital mutilation, arranged infant marriages, polygamy, don't pay taxes to the infidel and so on and so forth.  
There are plenty of muslims who have adapted to western society but they do so by ignoring what their laws teach and direct them to do. The day they write their "new testament" may be they can coexist with modern society and teach freely.

----------


## johnc

We are not at war, for goodness sake, the armed hordes are not at the door. We do have some disaffected individuals, marginalised, radicalised, whatever, sure some can lean towards ISIS but others can be found in extreme right wing or left wing groups. They have always been there, you will find them on the fringes of main stream political parties, newly minted parties including the likes of one nation these individuals who do not see broad implications but tend to have a narrow single issue focus. 
As for Islam, it came out of Judaism and Christianity, it is actually the one God only the method to get there is different. Like it or not the old testament would have been the basis for the Islamic scriptures and the prescriptions, punishments and dietary requirements which are similar. If we are going to ban a religion on the basis of its main religious reference we should probably ban all religions. Islam isn't the problem it is the adherence of fundamentalists, Christianity has plenty of nutters as well, the West created ISIS by the vacuum it created in Iraq, that was the fertiliser for something that lacked the nourishment to grow until we created the right conditions. Ironically it was those on the right in the US, lacking the ability to see the obvious consequences to removing employment, infrastructure and stability from a people (Iraq) that allowed the Jihadists a foothold. I don't have a problem with Islam or those who follow that faith, I do have a problem with all those narrow minded individuals who create wedges and division in the society we live in because they destabilise it and make it less safe for others. 
As a footnote the new testament does not replace the old testament which is the foundation of the Christian religion, it is a supplement, not only that but the old testament is different for different groups, the Catholics use a different version to the protestants for example. 
We have a few criminals in Australia, we are not in a state of civil war, it is not a state of them and us, the main reason we are successful against the lone wolf and small groups of idiots is because they are informed on by their own communities, friends and relatives. Intelligence plays its parts but without tip offs will never get that far on its own. The worst we can do is alienate people by writing falsehoods that are racist bigotry and target a large group with the actions of the tiniest minority.

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## Marc

Yes, lets all sing kumbaya and celebrate polygamy and children marriages and pretend there is no genital mutilation and institutionalised abuse of woman, pretend we don't know what the teachings are in the prayer centres and book shops, keep on feeding the queues in Centrelink, so that we don't push wedges in our society.
 Let's pretend the terrorist have no organisation and act alone.
Pathetic.
PS
The new testament does not replace the old? 
So we are still obeying the law to go to heaven? An eye for an eye? Johnc ... really?
"We are not at war" ... really? I disagree. There are many forms of war, and the war is defined by the intended purpose for the attacks. Ignoring that does not make it go away. It makes political sense for our ignorant politicians who think only in the next 2.5 years and retirement, but not for those who are at the coalface.

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## johnc

Living in a vacuum of moral outrage is fine if it is founded in fact rather than innuendo garnered from nothing. Most of the stuff you have listed is illegal here and is cracked down on hard, as for laws we obey the secular ones. Each religion in this country will have dark corners, if you want moral outrage read about the child abuse in our Christian institutions coming out of the royal commission and get this in perspective. 
However there are a number of people that hold Marc's view of the world, there is much that is spouted in talk back radio, some journalists and the broader public that is just false. sadly facts don't sway these people from pushing hatred and bigotry, this weakens and divides us. Every sector of society has individuals who prey on others, its why we have laws to bring these people to account, resulting in gaol or deportation in some cases. However lets stop branding entire communities for the actions of a few.

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## PlatypusGardens

> branding entire communities for the actions of a few.

  And that is exactly what the likes of Trump and Hanson are doing.
Interesting, they were talking to people on the street on ABC news this  morning.
People who said were gonna vote for Pauline in the state election...somewhere, I forget now. 
When asked why they replied that they "like her and her policies and opinions"
When asked to name a few of these policies they got embarassed and replied "I'd rather not say"  
.....Because nobody wants to look like a racist on national TV.   :Rolleyes:

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## Marc

That sort of lefty irrelevant tripe is what brought us to the current status quo. Look at Europe. That is what we will become if we keep on pedalling political correctness. 
We are fortunately at the end of this sad chapter.

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## r3nov8or

> ...
> People who said were gonna vote for Pauline in the state election...somewhere, I forget now. 
> When asked why they replied that they "like her and her policies and opinions"
> When asked to name a few of these policies they got embarassed and replied "I'd rather not say"  
> .....Because nobody wants to look like a racist on national TV.

  And this precisely why the polls didn't suggest a Trump win. Enough people secretly support the policies but most are not prepared to 'publicly' express those views, not even to a pollster

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## r3nov8or

> ...
> As for Islam, it came out of Judaism and *Christianity*, it is actually the one God only the method to get there is different. ...

   Well, to be clear, Islam upholds the same 'one God' as the above, but does not uphold Christianity's belief of the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as Gods of the Holy Trinity. The Qu'ran is specific about this. It gives Jesus a good few mentions, but it recognises Jesus as a prophet, not as the son of God. That is, to say "it came out of... Christianity" is a bit of a stretch, and potentially insulting to Islam

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## phild01

> Well, to be clear, Islam upholds the same 'one God' as the above, but does not uphold Christianity's belief of the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as Gods of the Holy Trinity. The Qu'ran is specific about this. It gives Jesus a good few mentions, but it recognises Jesus as a prophet, not as the son of God. That is, to say "it came out of... Christianity" is a bit of a stretch, and potentially insulting to Islam

  Comparison Table between Christianity, Islam and Judaism

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## Marc

the current war that is waged against the west by Islam is not based on religious opinion or even belief as we understand it. Islam is a political and religious doctrine not like any other belief and perhaps comparable to Christianity during the inquisition. 
The so called moderate, that politicians like to refer to as soon as there is an attack by extremist, see themselves as weak believers who don't have the guts to act on what they are thought and admire in secret the extremist "resolute and fundamentalist adherence to their scriptures".

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## PlatypusGardens

So...Marc, you genuinely believe that Donald Trump is the answer to the world's problems?
He's the best we've got.
He's gonna put an end to terrorist attacks and make the world a better place. 
Donald Trump.  
Wow.

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## phild01

Trump bans freedom of the press and makes up fake news, what does that remind you of!

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## Marc

> So...Marc, you genuinely believe that Donald Trump is the answer to the world's problems?
> He's the best we've got.
> He's gonna put an end to terrorist attacks and make the world a better place. 
> Donald Trump.  
> Wow.

  DT is only the symptom of a problem. If he will be part of the solution or not it remains to be seen. However to understand this you have to first see the problem for what it is. A western world immersed in a web of deception from an elitist political class that serves only themselves. Right, left, centre up or down they are all the same. 
The novelty of Brexit and Trump and those that will follow suit, is that they are not softy softy lefty, and that they are outsiders. The career politician, the dynasty politician is a spectre of the past.    
Political correctness, multiculturalism, open borders, refugee programs are a luxury that we can no longer afford when we have a war going on that most can not even recognise. 
We live in interesting times and old rehash cliché are no longer relevant. The left will have to stop pretending they have the high moral ground and that they own the truth and the righteousness, and that they can be altruistic with other people's money.

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## Marc

*JENNIFER ORIEL*   
Columnist      We stand at a pivotal historical moment. In just over a week, we will learn whether the new-right movement resurrected by Brexit and Trump is going global. The looming Dutch election is a bellwether. It is the first European election of 2017 featuring a pro-Western nationalist party vying for the popular vote. Locally, the West Australian election next weekend will test whether Hanson’s One Nation will extend significant influence beyond Queensland.  If The Netherlands’ Party for Freedom (PVV) wins, its leader Geert Wilders will become the most strident pro-Western prime minister in Europe. The Trump effect will translate into a transatlantic phenomenon. Either way, the third reckoning of new-right rhetoric with political reality is nigh. In the week leading up to the Dutch and WA elections, pollsters have predicted a loss for new-right parties. A Fairfax poll has blunted Hanson party hopes for more than marginal success in WA. The predicted gain for One Nation, which drove the Liberals to preference it over the Nationals, might not transpire. The poll shows a primary vote for One Nation of 8.5 per cent. Europe’s new-right faithful are on a knife’s edge ahead of the Dutch election on March 15. Pollsters predicted PVV to win by a small margin, but it has fallen to second place behind the governing centre-right. The leaders of the new-right movement differ on some policy matters, but share a set of values that are cohering into an international program for action. Their shared political aims are to: restore the primacy of Western civilisation by defending sovereign democracy and the nation-state system of allied free-world countries against the supranational left. New-right politicians give greater emphasis to the national interest than centrist-left and right parties by prioritising debt reduction via secure borders and rational immigration programs. Some claim that protectionism is co-essential to prosperity, but the claim is substantially weakened by the lack of systematic evidence. Far better is the shared goal to resurrect Western culture by battling the economically and socially corrosive PC culture that dominates the activist media, academia, NGO and public sectors. All new-right parties are gearing up to drain the swamp. Wilders has been called the Dutch Donald Trump, but he preceded Trump’s ascendancy by several years. His European allies include Hungary’s Viktor Orban, who dubbed 2017 the year of rebellion. In 2015, Wilders said to Agence France-Presse: “The only way to deal with (the immigration crisis) is to regain our national sovereignty and close our national borders … I am asking that our government close its doors as Hungary did.” Every major political party and movement emerging as part of the right rebellion holds the idea of sovereignty central to its politics. Sovereignty comprises secure borders and immigration policy reformed to progress the common political, cultural and economic good of citizens. It represents a conservative understanding of the common wealth. Wilders and the emerging new right pose a threat to supranational groups such as the UN and EU whose unelected members have attacked democracy by subverting sovereign peoples’ will on immigration, border integrity and national security. Like Trump, Wilders plans to introduce a national-interest immigration policy. One of his core campaign commitments is to initiate a Dutch referendum on EU membership. A recent poll by the Maurice de Hond organisation shows that after excluding “don’t knows”, 56 per cent of Dutch indicate they would vote “Nexit”. The year 2016 ushered in a Western renaissance led by Britons and Americans. Brexit represented a triumph of self-determination over supranational governance as Britons renewed their faith in liberal democracy by voting to leave the EU. More than 60 million Americans chose Donald Trump as President to restore American primacy by fortifying the foundations of the free world laid down in the Declaration of Independence and the US constitution. The supranational left is working overtime to prevent Trump’s ideas developing into a coherent international program for Western civilisational renewal championed by a right avant-garde. It is gaining ground in the war for Western civilisation by reminding centrist parties Western values matter and turning the weapons used by neo-Marxists and Islamists to attack the free world order against them. The new right is a counter-revolution against the new left. Neo-Marxism is the ideology of the 21st-century left. Its ideological father, Herbert Marcuse, reversed the idea of equality by advocating a politics founded on the principle of “not equal, but more representation of the left”. The new left would use radical minorities to purge conservatives from public life. The neo-Marxist dictatorship of minorities superseded the Marxist dictatorship of the proletariat. The foundational thesis of the 21st-century left is Orwellian doublethink. Codified inequality that promotes minority supremacy through affirmative action law is rebranded equality. The systemic censorship of conservative thought is called free speech. Consistent with its neo-Marxist creed, the modern left suppresses the silent Western majority; punishes politically incorrect thought; undermines the free world by weakening the nation-state system and vilifying Western patriots; purges conservatives from publicly funded institutions; and imposes punitive taxes on wealth creators and hard workers to fatten the parasite class. The new right is a counter-revolution whose seeds were sown in the 1970s, the decade neo-Marxism took root within the West. As Roger Kimball wrote in The Long March, the new left’s method of gradualism meant “working against the established institutions while working in them”. By almost destroying the liberal in liberal democracy, the left has prepared the ground for totalitarian politics. But it didn’t see the new right coming, whose members hail from both left and right united by the fight for the West. The new right has come to take our civilisation back. _Join Jennifer Oriel for a one-hour special on the future of conservatism in light of Trump and Brexit hosted by Mark Latham on Sky News, onTuesday at 8pm._

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## PlatypusGardens

> However to understand this you have to first see the problem for what it is.

  I do understand it     

> A western world immersed in a web of deception from an elitist political class that serves only themselves. Right, left, centre up or down they are all the same..

   I know.
I've known that for a long time. 
I didn't ask for a textbook politician style question dodging, I asked if you think Trump is going to be good for this world.
If he's going to achieve anything in his (hopefully short) time in office.

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## Marc

Let me answer in a different way, PG ... 
The establishment professional politician goes in front of the cameras and pontificates with deep grave voice that islamic terrorist attacks are "lone wolf attacks" from people who are born here therefore they are our problem.  
The silent majority is tired of this nonsense and wants someone to tell it how it is, that there is a culture that has declared war on the west using their medieval religious interpretation as an excuse.
Our political left bent media and most politicians harp at the edges of this pretending it is not happening. 
Our legal system and our western values are not prepared to repel an enemy like this, and our politicians know this yet still want to play the cool card of tolerance and multiculturalism. 
Only political outsiders with all their warts and defects will be able to call it for what it is and perhaps have a chance to rectify this problem.
Morons like in Canada that want to pass a law against "islamic hate" will only plunge us deeper into cultural oblivion.

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## PlatypusGardens

> Let me answer in a different way
> .

  You could just....you know.....answer the question....  
I'll give you a third chance.
A yes or no will do.    :Smilie:

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## Marc

Yes

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## SilentButDeadly

I'd have said "Yes but...not in the next four years".

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## r3nov8or

> I'd have said "Yes but...not in the next four years".

  The last couple of days and his absolute and complete failure to implement his Health changes is very telling re any success in his agenda over this term

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## Bros

I once asked a retired business man who ran a successful buisness for 20 yrs did he ever consider doing any volunteering work. His answer was never as he was used to being the person making all the decisions and he could never work for someone else. 
His name wasn't Donald Trump but it could have been as he now has to work for someone else.

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## UseByDate

In a nut shell, so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWNHCRCpNM

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## phild01

These youtube links no longer for me, all I get is this and then nothing.

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## PlatypusGardens

> These youtube links no longer for me, all I get is this and then nothing.

  you still on 1Mb/month dial-up?

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## phild01

10 :Cheerleader:

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## UseByDate

> These youtube links no longer for me, all I get is this and then nothing.

  What happens when you search for “Donald the musical” in Youtube?
 Link works for me using Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge

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## phild01

> What happens when you search for “Donald the musical” in Youtube?
>  Link works for me using Firefox, Chrome and Microsoft Edge

  Hmm, does the same thing.  This happened before and in between I have watched the odd youtube.  Using Chrome/Win10.

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## woodbe

Youtube link still works here, but not using the same OS/Browser.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWNHCRCpNM

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## phild01

> Youtube link still works here, but not using the same OS/Browser.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWNHCRCpNM

   Thatworks.

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## sol381

Phil try this.. same thing happened to me..Go to youtube ,,right click on any open space on the page and then click view page info. hit security up the top, then view cookies. then remove all .. worked for me.

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## phild01

> Phil try this.. same thing happened to me..Go to youtube ,,right click on any open space on the page and then click view page info. hit security up the top, then view cookies. then remove all .. worked for me.

  After 'view page source' (info wasn't shown), saw no mention of security!
Managed to find security, no mention of cookies as yet! 
Just cleared some cookies and browsing history and the link now works. thanks Sol

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## PlatypusGardens

Can you guys try to stay on topic please   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## phild01

> Can you guys try to stay on topic please

  Hey, it's only about Trump :Rolleyes:  :Biggrin:

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## sol381

> Can you guys try to stay on topic please

  I was  just trying to be like you..

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## Marc

This week email    

> Marc, 
> President Trump spent another week making strides and putting America First! 
> Announcing more jobs for Americans, honoring the brave people protecting Americans, and addressing the problems of every day Americans were just some of the things accomplished on the President's to-do-list this week. 
> President Trump is out there working for all of us. Your support keeps him energized and we wouldnt be here without you. 
> Read about the Presidents week below.  *THIS WEEK*      *Honoring The People Who Serve Our Country*  
> President Trump welcomed 25 Medal of Honor recipients to the White House. Each of them has risen above and beyond the call of duty in defense of our country, our people, and our flag. They have selflessly gave their all for the United States of America. They are the soul of our Nation, and our grateful republic salutes you.     *20,000 More Jobs For The American People* 
> President Trump was thrilled to announce that Charter Communications has committed to investing $25 billion dollars in the United States, and has committed to hiring 20,000 American workers over the next four years. Charter will also end its offshore call centers, now basing 100% of them here in the United States. This is great for their workers and customers, but especially great for the United States.    *Ending Drug Abuse In America* 
> Drug abuse has become a crippling problem throughout the United States. Drug overdoses are now the leading cause of accidental death in our country and opioid overdose deaths have nearly quadrupled since 1999. This is a total epidemic. President Trump is committed to working directly with representatives from state and local governments, law enforcement, medical professionals, and victims to find solutions to combat this issue. He held a round table this week, dedicated to solving the drug crisis through cooperation across government and across society, including early intervention to keep America's youth off this destructive path.     *Harnessing The American Spirit*  
> Consumer confidence in March soared to the highest level in more than 16 years, according to data released Tuesday. Consumer confidence has taken off since the election of President Donald Trump, on the prospect of lower taxes and more infrastructure spending. Were 10 weeks into President Trumps presidency and its clear the American people are harnessing this new American Spirit!      *Ending The War On Coal*  
> ...

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