# Forum Home Renovation Painting  Peeling paint & sealer binder - water versus oil based.

## celestem

Hi all
I have a dilemma...We are repainting the house, and find that the old water based paint comes off really easily.  In some places you can almost peel it off like flipping a page of a small book.  Other places you can use a scraper and it comes off still fairly easily.  The cause is that I think that the original painter of the home did not use a sealer on the plaster, so I may have to strip all the walls!  :Shock:   *1.*  Is there a sealer that can be used on top of the peeling paint that will soak through it and bond to the plaster underneath?  *2.* I want to avoid any paint peeling in the future so will use a sealer/binder on any exposed plaster, BUT I have two main choices - water or oil based.  My wife is pushing the water based because of the low VOC's, but my dad reckons that oil based is best for the sealer/binder because it soaks in better.  So *which is the bestter one? Oill or water based sealer/binder ??I*   *3.*  In this case of peeling paint, is it recommended to strip all the walls completely, or just where the 'cut X and lift with tape' test fails? I am concerned about the step edge when repainting.  :Confused:

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## SilentButDeadly

1. No... 
2. Water based sealers work just fine.....so well that you'll struggle to find an internal wall sealer that is anything but water based 
3. Your ability to strip the depends on what the walls are made of....if it is plasterboard, not a chance.  You might be able to sand the edges down to a feather edge OR simply skim coat the lot....but I wouldn't have very high hopes for either rescue. 
Ask Rod the Plasterboard Guru what he reckons.

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## Craigoss

I have newly set (which have dried) walls, painted one room with a Taubmans 3in1 primer, and the paint just peels off. Even putting a delicate masking tape will pull the paint off. Then i got several other rooms painted professionally, they didnt use any primer and just applied 2 top coats. That seems to be quite solid, havent had any peeling. They mentioned to me you no longer need to use a primer.

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## celestem

> I have newly set (which have dried) walls, painted one room with a Taubmans 3in1 primer, and the paint just peels off. Even putting a delicate masking tape will pull the paint off. Then i got several other rooms painted professionally, they didnt use any primer and just applied 2 top coats. That seems to be quite solid, havent had any peeling. They mentioned to me you no longer need to use a primer.

   :Shock:   Blimey!! Did you ask the painters about your peeling paint or follow up with Taubman's?
Was the Taubman's paint specifically for plaster walls?
Did you wipe down the walls with a damp cloth to get any dust off before starting? 
I am surprised that the painters said that just two top coats is OK.  I thought that all plaster would need some sort of sealer, assuming that it is plaster we are talking about.  What do others think?  :Question:

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## celestem

Hi SilentButDeadly,
...But what about these posts: http://www.renovateforum.com/f207/se...82/#post777071
The best way for adhesion with the "chalky" surface I could find was to use an *oil based binder sealer.* I used the Pascol Uniseal - stinks and is disgusting to use - and looks all blotchy for a day until it dries properly. I absolutely hate the stuff (I needed my special 3m gas mask filters and then could not smell a thing).....
......But it worked a treat. 2 coats of Dulux 101 Low sheen on top and it looks absolutely fantastic (and it has all stuck properly).
If it is bare plaster anything - from my understanding you will need to apply some type of sealer. 
and this one:  http://www.renovateforum.com/f207/se...82/#post777185
Hard internal plaster *MUST be sealed with an oil based product* then you can use your choice of acrylic top coats. *Water based ucoat will not bind to the plaster.*

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## Axel

Assuming you are talking about set/solid plaster and not plasterboard. 
You need to seal set plaster with an oil based undercoat. Prefereably an oil based 'sealer binder' rather than a general purpose sealer primer undercoat. Let the sealer binder dry throuroughly then if it looks like the surface is uniform then you can proceed with two acrylic topcoats or preferably an acrylic 'sealer primer undercoat' and then 2 acrylic top coats. 
Craigoss - What the painters told you about no undercoat is incorrect. You may have  misheard or they may have told you the wrong info for some reason. Or  they may have used an oil base enamel paint on your walls instead of acrylic -  not ideal. 
Silent But Deadly - yes waterbased undercoats are recommended by most manufacturers for most interior (and exterior) surfaces but set plaster is one of the exceptions. The Dulux, Taubmans, Wattyl waterbase undercoats will all say on the can to use an oil base sealer binder first on set plaster.

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## Craigoss

> Blimey!! Did you ask the painters about your peeling paint or follow up with Taubman's?
> Was the Taubman's paint specifically for plaster walls?
> Did you wipe down the walls with a damp cloth to get any dust off before starting? 
> I am surprised that the painters said that just two top coats is OK.  I thought that all plaster would need some sort of sealer, assuming that it is plaster we are talking about.  What do others think?

  I done alot of research before choosing paints, but the problem is there is so many differing opinions on the matter its hard to come up with the right answer. The Taubmans 3in1 did not say its ok to use on set plaster. Yes the walls were render with white set, had been dry for about 6 months and were dust free.  
I went to several paint shops and the salesman all said water based primers are fine for set plaster, and recommended the taubmans. My house has a rising damp problem which I have resolved, however the rising damp expert said i need to use a water based primer/paint, to allow the walls to breathe (as bricks take 9 months to fully dry out), oil based primers trap the water in the bricks. 
But reading most of the paint manufacturer info, they recommend the oil-based sealer binder. The painters did give me some technical reason for not using a primer, something along the lines of the paints of today are not like yesteryear, they include a primer property... So who do you believe, the paint manufacturers or the many salesmen, heritage specialists and painters which do this job day in day out?

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## Axel

Yeah it can be hard as there is often more than one paint system that will work and some will tell you water base is the best others will say stick to oil base. I thought that set plaster was one of the occasions that everyone (manufacturers, salesmen, painters) all agreed that oil base is the only undercoat to use but apparently not.

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## Strom

> I done alot of research before choosing paints, but the problem is there is so many differing opinions on the matter its hard to come up with the right answer. The Taubmans 3in1 did not say its ok to use on set plaster. Yes the walls were render with white set, had been dry for about 6 months and were dust free.  
> I went to several paint shops and the salesman all said water based primers are fine for set plaster, and recommended the taubmans. My house has a rising damp problem which I have resolved, however the rising damp expert said i need to use a water based primer/paint, to allow the walls to breathe (as bricks take 9 months to fully dry out), oil based primers trap the water in the bricks. 
> But reading most of the paint manufacturer info, they recommend the oil-based sealer binder. The painters did give me some technical reason for not using a primer, something along the lines of the paints of today are not like yesteryear, they include a primer property... So who do you believe, the paint manufacturers or the many salesmen, heritage specialists and painters which do this job day in day out?

  Your Painters are having a lend of you !!!  :No: 
All new plaster / white set / plasterboard should be "primed" before a topcoat is applied.. :Frown: 
I don't know of a paint manufacturer that stipulates any different !!
Maybe your painter has re written the paint manufactures specification ??..  :brava:

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## celestem

> All new plaster / white set / plasterboard should be "primed" before a topcoat is applied.

  When you say "primed" do you mean just sealer / binder?  :Smokeing:

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## Strom

> When you say "primed" do you mean just sealer / binder?

  when I say "primed" I mean whatever the paint manufacturer stipulates for that particular system.
I mostly use solver Maxi PSU it is a sealer binder undercoat in one.
I am more than happy with its performance in all areas. 
Cheers..

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