# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Plumbers no show

## Pulpo

Greetings 
I have installed a septic system on my property in the bush with no council approval at the time. 
Anyway I now need to get a plumber to certify. 
I have called 5 plumbers, 4 have agreed to come and inspect 
None have turned up, with one due to inspect next week. 
After the first did not show, including 4 no returned phone calls, I made a point with each plumber if you cannot or are not interested lets not waste your time or mine. 
Two plumbers who both mentioned they installed septics in the last week, were wrong on the standards. 
Having checked the standards for my own installation and the current standards. 
As they asked a few questions regarding my installation, they were quick to point out what was wrong, I did not voice too much concern, but did question are you sure, both were adament on the requirements. 
Hmm they are wrong, unless the Australian Standards 1547:2000 are wrong. 
The AS/NZS 1547 are rather detailed and fairly simple to read. 
I'd suggest some of their clients are paying too much on spurious requirements. 
Cheers 
Pulpo 
PS I have now made arrangements for someone to come from 100km away if required.

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## bklooger

mate i have been guilty of the no show. to be honest its a no win situation . ive been honest with people with the im not licensed or experienced in that field to be worth it. ive had people abuse me after that answer, ive had people ring leaving nice voice messages or at late at night . 
you cant win sometimes, some people will never be pleased there are two sides to every story and those plumbers still might be right regarding local council regulations and as3500 
good luck with it all 
cheers brad

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## rrobor

Sorry but Im with the plumber here. For him to sign off on this, anything wrong and he wears it not you. He didn’t see the tank installed, whats under it and all the piping etc. You have no permits, no inspections nothing. Now you want a plumber to stick his head in a noose for a very low fee. If you find a plumber that will do that, I think he must have sniffed too much sewer gass.

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## aussieplumber

No chance in hell i would sign it off, can cause to many problems if it is installed incorrectly there can be fines and you can even loose your licence. Thats why you should let the guys who are experienced and licenced do the job correctly and you wouldn't have these issues now

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## GrahamC

I can't think of a tougher situation than yours.  
Did you take any photos of when you were building it? They would certainly make a plumber more comfortable in signing off on it. 
Another way will be more expensive and just tell him how it is and ask for a quote on how much it will cost to make enough modifications to fix it up. Hopefully the guy can tinker it enough without needing to spend too much money.  
The other thing about the aussie standards is that they really only serve as a starting point to many of the local rules. A good example is that the NSW plumbing code requires that you renew your clay sewer back to the main no matter what where as the australian standard 3500 only requires that you renew if it is broken or something. 
I only found out about this after a lot of research. The plumbers knew I had to, but they could not point to the rule which said I needed to. It made me look like an idiot for trying to insist that they did not need to do that. 
I don't think you can just assume that all you need to comply with is the relevant Australian Standard.

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## murray44

> Sorry but Im with the plumber here. For him to sign off on this, anything wrong and he wears it not you. He didnt see the tank installed, whats under it and all the piping etc. You have no permits, no inspections nothing. Now you want a plumber to stick his head in a noose for a very low fee. If you find a plumber that will do that, I think he must have sniffed too much sewer gass.

  Hang on Rrobor, the question isn't whether the plumber would sign off on the work or not.
4 plumbers agreed to turn up and so far none have. If they don't want to sign off on the septic, that's fine, but don't agree to turn up and then not show. That's just rude an unprofessional. I know my customers would be furious if I made appointments and then just decided "nah, stuff it".

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## elkangorito

> Hang on Rrobor, the question isn't whether the plumber would sign off on the work or not.
> 4 plumbers agreed to turn up and so far none have. If they don't want to sign off on the septic, that's fine, but don't agree to turn up and then not show. That's just rude an unprofessional. I know my customers would be furious if I made appointments and then just decided "nah, stuff it".

  
Good comments Murray. 
It's an old & outdated idea that "the customer is always right". To believe in this idea promotes poor or bad communication, which can lead to customers spreading bad words about a company/business. 
The more logical/modern but still less accepted method, is to tell the customer the truth. 
One of my old managers insisted upon saying "yes" to everything the customer wanted. The results of his actions were horrendous! I was late for appointments (customer very pi55ed off) or I couldn't make the appointment for some unforeseen reason (customer almost cancelled the contract). 
After I took control of the situation & was able to "truthfully" speak to MY customers, things were a lot better because almost all of my customers realised that people can't just be somewhere "on command", unless previously & properly planned. 
There is an old but true saying; you can satisfy 20% of the people 80% of the time or you can satisfy 80% of the people 20% of the time. In other words, if you try to satify everybody you will "come undone". If you try to satify the ones who you say you will satisfy, all will be well. 
I've spent years trying to teach "old school" managers that saying "no" is ok, providing you give a good reason complete with a future meeting time. Providing future meeting times AND STICKING TO THEM, indicates a well organised company who takes planning seriously. The result is ongoing business. 
Of course, in the "domestic" business world, things are "catch as catch can", which makes planning very difficult but lying (always agreeing with the customer) will only make things worse.

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## bklooger

elko you nailed it on the head. i would love to tell the truth but sometimes it isnt worth it. i have had harrasing phone calls after the fact, people come to my house to follow up. it is easier to say yes sometimes to avoid the aggravation. 
in this blokes situation he installed a tank without the paperwork and now needs aplumber to sign off. its going to be hard to find someone willing to take it on and accept responsibility. to make it worse he is quoting standards and rules. hmmmm im sure this is going down well. a possible know it all red flag in my book. sometimes tradies arent the bad guys yes there really are people outthere that will never be happy. 
life is to short and there are better paying jobs outthere without this hassle 
headpin i seem to remember a thread you posted about a plumbers quote they didnt even get the job but you harrased them go figure they wouldve been better fobbing you off. i wonder sometimes 
cheers brad

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## watson

Just a question.
What's the chances that the Plumbers talk to each other.......and the job is flagged as a "no win situation"???

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## chipps

> Two plumbers who both mentioned they installed septics in the last week, *were wrong on the standards.* 
> Having checked the *standards for my own installation and the current standards*. 
> As they asked a few questions regarding my installation, they were *quick to point out* *what was wrong*, I did not voice too much concern, but did question are you sure,* both were adament on the requirements.* 
> Hmm they are wrong, unless the *Australian Standards 1547:2000* are wrong. 
> The AS/NZS 1547 are rather detailed and fairly simple to read.

  How about sharing the data that's in dispute? 
Perhaps some of the plumbers here can clarify where your tradies are coming from?

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## rrobor

The question is very simple, If you were a licenced plumber  and this guy phoned you, you perhaps may to start feel sorry for his situation and say OK. Then the guy starts questioning you as to rules and tells you, you are wrong. Now you may still say Ok but then reflect on what can you do when you get there and not show up. As I stated for the small fee the poster is sure the jobs is worth, would you turn up. Read all the above posts, not one person there would.

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## bugsy

> The question is very simple, If you were a licenced plumber  and this guy phoned you, you perhaps may to start feel sorry for his situation and say OK. Then the guy starts questioning you as to rules and tells you, you are wrong. Now you may still say Ok but then reflect on what can you do when you get there and not show up. As I stated for the small fee the poster is sure the jobs is worth, would you turn up. Read all the above posts, not one person there would.

  it still doesnt cut it.
To save face for your business you ring them back and say "look, something big has come in and Im sorry i cant get there for a good while, you are better calling someone else"
then your business still looks good. 
I hate it.   
There is no excuse for not at least ringing

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## bklooger

rrobor youve nailed it.exactly the way it is. this blokes spouting the standards, red flag yes and see you later. 
bugsy why its a no win situation is not as if they are oblidged because of a one call. we are a regulated industry with compliance and insurance requirements.

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## bklooger

it comes down to he tried to save money and needs a plumber to certify. its his problem and the plumber is not oblidged. he is quoting how it should be done its easier to say yes and get on with life. 
maybe this guy is a PITA and thats it and they decided to walk away. tradesmen time is valueble and better spent elsewhere. and reputation be damned because you can do the best job and still have an unhappy client.

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## murray44

> it comes down to he tried to save money and needs a plumber to certify. its his problem and the plumber is not oblidged. he is quoting how it should be done its easier to say yes and get on with life. 
> maybe this guy is a PITA and thats it and they decided to walk away. tradesmen time is valueble and better spent elsewhere. and reputation be damned because you can do the best job and still have an unhappy client.

  I'll say this again, the plumber (or any tradesman) is not obliged to come out and fix anything. But once they say they will turn up, they need to turn up. 
All these comments about not being able to say no, and cranky customers. What a load of tripe. 
I agree, some customers will never be happy. But making appointments and not turning up (not pointing finger at you bklooger) is not the right way to make customers happy. 
I suspect some tradesmen need to improve their customer management skills, technical ability is not the only skill you need.

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## rrobor

Well some people seem to suggest its better tophone back and lie. This is a no win for the plumber. The guy is quoting specs, who is correct, who knows. Personally I would say after he started that. "Sorry on second thoughts, I dont think I can help you". But you have a one sided story here,  perhaps the plumbers didnt want more abuse Perhaps he let him ramble on and didnt want to phone back for more. So saying people have poor skills may or may not be correct, without both sides I can see no way to judge.

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## rrobor

Headpin you miss the point as well. This person is not in need of help. He broke the law. He did not get council permission for this installation. He tried to deprive a plumber of the job. Now when things go pear shaped he wants bailed out by a plumber certifing the job. Now for a start he needs to get council say so. Is his sewage overflow in a water catchment area?. Believe me as a sufferer of bad planning when the girl guide camp sewage polluted our town, thats no fun. Now the guy has done everything wrong, including knowing better than the plumbers. So what was said on the telephone. My guess is he was confrontational. Perhaps after a bit of thought the plumber crossed the appointment out. If he phoned to cancel he would get more snash. Is there not a fine line here between good manners, and being a masochist.

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## bklooger

rrobor mate youve nailed it better then i ever could. the others can say what they say but until they experience it they will never know. read headpins post about the council bloke with his quote. and the drama that followed over a couple of hundred.  
trust me ive said no and then had the phone calls and people coming to my door for explanations. not a pleasent experience with young kids at home. 
he knows all the standards well good luck i bet that goes down well on the phone. 
he had it down without paperwork and now wants someone to fix it for chicken feed.a phone call is not anything its a conversation that is neither here nor there.

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## rrobor

Headpin Im not going to argue further but looking up a dictionary snash - insolence: abusive language or insolent behavior  So no its quite correct English.  The ceptic tank will come back out, it has to. The county engineer will slap an order on it. So does the plumber pay to pull it out, if he signs off on it chances are he will be done as well. So was it manners to put one in then ask a plumber. I leave that to you where the manners start to erode.

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## bklooger

rrobor thats classic thanks for the laugh! :2thumbsup:

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## Bros

I had a similar incident within the last 6 weeks. I called two tree loopers to come and cut down two large trees. I know another tree lopper very well but I didn't ask him as I knew he didn't have a stump grinder and the other two did. Well they said thay would be around within the week to look at the job and give me a price.  Well nothing happened so I went to the person I knew he came around gave me a price and due to the size I had to pay for a JLG and we arranged a time and he cut the trees down. I have ended up with a couple of stumps about 1.5  m high that are now they my wife uses for bird feeders. 
Glad Ididn't use the first two as it turned out but they just couldn't care less.  
There would be two issues in that they didn't turn up and he did the wrong thing and no one would certify it anyhow. However they should have told him in any way they saw fit if the potential customer came on heavy over the phone.

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## elkangorito

I've found some interesting links. Some are a tad old (2007) but nonetheless interesting. 
The below link is about "Dealing with tradesmen". http://www.homedesigndirectory.com.au/blog/archives/173 
The below link is also about "Dealing with tradesmen". http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...w%20up&f=false 
This link is about "Anyone out there know why tradesmen do not phone you back?" http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question...2044823AA610N6 
This link has nothing at all to do with sexually transmitted diseases. http://www.dripdoctor.com.au/ 
Message Board (not forum) comments about tradesmen. http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/localnews-wa/3536/  
So! Who needs to do "what"?

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## murray44

Gee, I dunno why you're picking on the tradies. 
Some of them are doing it real tough at the moment. I had a gasfitter in a month or so back and he was really struggling. You should have seen his ute, it was last years model!  :Eek:

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## elkangorito

> Gee, I dunno why you're picking on the tradies. 
> Some of them are doing it real tough at the moment. I had a gasfitter in a month or so back and he was really struggling. You should have seen his ute, it was last years model!

   :Roflmao:  
I guess some blokes love to spend all their money on cars, which are IMHO, nothing but money pits. 
At my last job in Australia, all of my contractors (tradesmen) drove what I consider to be "appropriate" vehicles. Things like Japanese utes fitted out with racks, tool boxes etc or Jap vans. These vehicles were in good condition & for the most part, kept relatively clean. 
Of course, their "personal use" vehicles may have been different.

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## bklooger

elko leta go back to the start he did the job illegally and know whinges he can get a plumber. thanks but no thanks. he hasnt even come back on to reply to any posts.  
there is two sides to this story and i dont feel sorry for him. he tried to save money and its payback . he couldve done it right the first time and chose not to.
rrobor is correct about deciding where the moral arguement starts. he did illegal work and people can argue but the reality septic tanks and plumbing is regulated for a reason.to then get on the phone saying he knows better is a red flag  and its easier to just agree and get off the phone.  
cheers
brad

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## elkangorito

> elko leta go back to the start he did the job illegally and know whinges he can get a plumber. thanks but no thanks. he hasnt even come back on to reply to any posts.  
> there is two sides to this story and i dont feel sorry for him. he tried to save money and its payback . he couldve done it right the first time and chose not to.
> rrobor is correct about deciding where the moral arguement starts. he did illegal work and people can argue but the reality septic tanks and plumbing is regulated for a reason.to then get on the phone saying he knows better is a red flag  and its easier to just agree and get off the phone.  
> cheers
> brad

  I don't disagree with you Brad but I feel that errors have been made on both sides. 
The OP tried to "have his cake & eat it too" & the tradesmen involved failed to effectively communicate with the OP.

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## murray44

Where's Watson and his clicky thingy?

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## watson

I'm here...just giggling.
We'll have to get some outcome from all this.
Perhaps a summary when its all worked out???

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## murray44

In summary:
Pulpo installs septic without approval (no argument there)
Pulpo rings plumbers to get retrospective approval
Plumbers agree to visit site but don't turn up.
Discussion then splits in 2 camps at this point.
 1. those that argue that plumber shouldn't have to retrospectively inspect septic system e.g. Rrobor, bklooger et al
 2. those that are arguing that plumbers should turn up once they say they will (note there is no obligation on them to approve said system once inspection is complete). I am in this camp with elkangorito, headpin et al. 
I need a new argument.

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## watson

Excellent summary Murray44  :2thumbsup:   :2thumbsup:   :2thumbsup:  
and here's your new argument. 
Your an UGLY bugga and your Mum wears Army boots.

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## Vernonv

> 2. those that are arguing that plumbers should turn up once they say they will (note there is no obligation on them to approve said system once inspection is complete). I am in this camp with elkangorito, headpin et al.

  I agree with this as well. 
If the plumber doesn't want to job ... thats fine ... say you don't want the job. 
If the plumber says he will be there at a certain time ... fine ... be there ... or at least call to say you can't make it. 
If the customer is a prick ... fine ... don't do the job ... but don't tell him you will. 
If I tell a customer I will do something, then I will damn well do it, or at least give them a call and tell them that I can't. Why do some tradies feel they don't need to offer a reasonable level of customer service? I think that the lack of competition in the trades has led some to believe that they don't have to ... bit like the banks really.

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## bklooger

what i would like to know is if those that are all high and mighty about shoulds and i do are honestly going to tell me they have never done this themselves? wow to be the perfect business and role model  :Doh:

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## Vernonv

> what i would like to know is if those that are all high and mighty about shoulds and i do are honestly going to tell me they have never done this themselves? wow to be the perfect business and role model

  I'm sure I have let down a customer before, but I wouldn't have done it purposefully and it would be the exception rather than the rule - no-one is perfect. 
But some make it sound like it (pissing off customers) is the way a business "should" be run. I think you will find most businesses with that attitude wouldn't last long ... unless they had some sort of monopoly (or close to it). :Doh:

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## murray44

> what i would like to know is if those that are all high and mighty about shoulds and i do are honestly going to tell me they have never done this themselves? wow to be the perfect business and role model

  I don't think 'common courtesy'  is being high and mighty. As Vernon says, some make it sound like breaking customer appointments is just a daily ritual.

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## bklooger

headpin you only have to refer to you thread about the council quote to see why this occurs.all the drama over a quote of a few hundred dollars! then all your ranting about not for profit and its his job and blah blah blah 
you cant argue with the fact he got caught out doing the job illegally( BREAK THE LAW) and then posts his story here.then he knows the answer and standards. i dont know what went down. was he abusive, being a know it all, giving the sob story about having no money,its a5 min job she`ll be right. 
you dont know however i know from personal experience what happens when you do try to be honest. harrasment odd hour phone calls turning up on my door step which you all consider ok because theres been no acknowledgement that this happens 
the reality is that you are one person you might be ok but trust me there are millions of more out there. just because your the potential customer doesnt mean your right.

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## rrobor

Oh sorry but I had to reply to all that. Lets get real here. In every respect this installation is illegal. Its not a simple wall socket type infringement its a total bulldoze through the law. Now any plumber going there can not aprove the job. The plumber DOES NOT give permission for this installation, only the shire engineer can. The plumber can only work to the engineers specs and sign off that that has been done. Now the poster seeks a plumber. May I ask for what?. Ok lets asume a plumber is phoned after his nice steak and a bottle of Grange says Ok, then in the light of day realises this is a no win. Would you phone back. Personally I would, but thats my choice, take a straw poll and 60% wouldnt is where I suspect the numbers would be in reality.

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## bklooger

amazing reply there!
i put it out there and i think its the truth whats your story.you cant get your own way so you throw a tanty? 
cheers

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## rrobor

Headpin what is your point. If you have none, perhaps its better to say nothing. I didnt want to do more on this as its overcooked now. So please, no wittys that dont work. If you have a genuine pont make it. If not let this poor overworked carcass rest. After all this sewage business has been done to death, and now we are all just going through the motions.

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## watson

Are we done yet??

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## rrobor

Eh no Lad, I had my laugh, one day you may find it

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## rrobor

OOps sorry Noel

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## rrobor

Im all flushed out thanks Noel

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## watson

Okey Dokey.
Thank you Linesmen  Thank you Ballboys.
Closed

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