# Forum Home Renovation The Garden Shed  shed cladding can I use sheeting and should I change framing?

## tonyb4315

HI everyone, brand new member, enjoy reading your posts.
 I want to build new shed from scratch on rural residential 2.5 acre block that will also have a our new house on it, that is a bit better than basic in that it would have at least one roller door bay but the other bays would serve as extra rumpus/office/games room/workshop/hobbie space...Questions arise rewall sheeting and therefore framing. SOme have advised that I get shed through council as basic 3 or 4 bay shed kit such as an american barn and add windows and sliding doors later.
 A) *would I be better to get approval for something like a 4 bay farm rural shed* where one bay is enclosed roller door bay and build stud framing later myself to enclose and thus install doors and windows where I want them?, OR, B) get a basic american barn built then CAN I SIMPLY *clad the face wall/front wall with the vertical weather board look sheets screwing it only in to the provided tophat girts*, i.e screw sheets straight over colour bond through girts? *would these girts hold it*? and 
C)* is it worth cutting windows and doors in later* and mucking around to put timber or metal stud framing around them?
 HAve lined a basic brick skin garage once in the past by building treated radiata stud framing and gyorocking so a bit more comfortable DIYER with timber to date. LOOK FORWARD to hearing what other have done??? CHeers. :No:  :Biggrin:

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## Uncle Bob

Hi tonyb4315, welcome to our club  :Wink:  
I'm not entirely sure what your question are, but,
I would get the shed off a plan. You design one here ShedDesigner
If you're going to live in it, I'd make sure you make allowance for this in the permit application. 
I can't see any problem with using a cladding of your choice on the frame. Just mention it so the shed supplier. 
Anyhow, I hope someone else will pipe in who'a bit more knowledgeable that me   :Smilie:  
Cheers Bob.   

> HI everyone, brand new member, enjoy reading your posts.
>  I want to build new shed from scratch on rural residential 2.5 acre block that will also have a our new house on it, that is a bit better than basic in that it would have at least one roller door bay but the other bays would serve as extra rumpus/office/games room/workshop/hobbie space...Questions arise rewall sheeting and therefore framing. SOme have advised that I get shed through council as basic 3 or 4 bay shed kit such as an american barn and add windows and sliding doors later.
>  A) *would I be better to get approval for something like a 4 bay farm rural shed* where one bay is enclosed roller door bay and build stud framing later myself to enclose and thus install doors and windows where I want them?, OR, B) get a basic american barn built then CAN I SIMPLY *clad the face wall/front wall with the vertical weather board look sheets screwing it only in to the provided tophat girts*, i.e screw sheets straight over colour bond through girts? *would these girts hold it*? and 
> C)* is it worth cutting windows and doors in later* and mucking around to put timber or metal stud framing around them?
>  HAve lined a basic brick skin garage once in the past by building treated radiata stud framing and gyorocking so a bit more comfortable DIYER with timber to date. LOOK FORWARD to hearing what other have done??? CHeers.

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## tonyb4315

*Thanks Uncle Bob*, thanks for your prompt reply. It is *great to be a new member of this forum*.
I do not want to live in this shed BUT it will have one garage bay and the 3 other bays will be for rumpus/workshop activities that my wife does not see as fitting in with the style of the new house like our good old table tennis table, exercise equipment, kids electric guitar stuff, kids carft stuff...starting to sound a bit like the 'pool room' from the movie the CAstle.  I'd like this games/man cave section to have better internal lining and windows/sliders and perhaps external lining.
HOW CAN I GET A BETTER EXTERNAL CLADDING? WILL IT MEAN CHANGING SHED FRAMING? WHAT ABOUT WINDOWS? WHAT ABOUT COUNCIL, SHOULD I DO THIS AFTER BASIC SHED BUILT or perhaps get only the garage part of the shed enclosed in colorbond leaving 3 bays as carport, then enclose the bays later to allow for conventional window sizes and cladding??? Cheers :No:  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Shedblog.com.au

Hi Tony, this is copy of a blog post on my website. 
A few things to keep in mind when building a shed especially if its  going to be a workshop or rumpus room where a controlled environment is  preferred. 
Sheds are generally braced through their Roof and Side walls, either  using the cladding (diaphram bracing) or strap bracing. What this means  is that if you purchase a shed in one design (shed is optimised based on  that design) and you change the design later by cutting holes in it for  windows and doors, moving bracing to suit openings etc then you will be  altering the way the shed behaves in extreme weather. I would recommend  ensuring that the shed is designed for the proposed openings from the  start.  :Yes:  
If you wish to clad the walls in another type of cladding other than the  standard vertical clad sheets of Colorbond or Zincalume then your shed  will require additional battening. This is usually achieved by fixing  topspan 22 ceiling battens vertically across the horizontal wall girts  every 450mm or so. This will give the other varieties of cladding like  weatherboard, blueboard, horizontal corro somewhere to fix to. It would  be wise to discuss this with your chosen shed supplier so that 1. it is  engineered into the building and 2. allowed for in the design & slab  drawings as you are altering dimensions by 22mm per side. 
Councils are usually fine with you doing whatever you want with your  shed as long as it is catered for in its engineering/design and that  your are not living it it...No hard wired Kitchen. Toilets and showers  in sheds are fine. (properly installed by suitably qualified builder). 
Internally lining a shed should be dicussed with your shed supplier as  well, more so if you are intending on lining the roof as the additional  load should be noted for the design. Some companies will look to upgrade  the rafters and purlins. Others are fine as they are. Remember that  often people will go ahead in the future and install solar panels on a  shed as well, so if you combine gyprock or similar, solar panels and a  major hail storm and drenching rain you may find the roof on the floor.  :Doh:  
Aim for your budget to allow for Kingspan Insulbreak 65 or similar  insulation. It does 3 things...Insulates, is an anti condesation and  creates a thermal break between the cladding and the steel frame. This  will make the inside of the shed very comfortable in summer or winter.  If lining areas later pop some aditional Batts in the cavities to create  a real thermally comfortable space. You can check out Insulbreak here  there is a link on that page to Tech & Spec PDF. 
Lots of folks who are looking to create workshops/rumpus rooms will  install a vermin seal to the perimeter of the shed that stops creepy  crawlies and moisture during inclement weather coming up inside the shed  between the cladding and the slab. You can read about it here .  Keep in mind that if you are in a bush fire attack zone that emberseals  could be required by your certifier or may just be a good idea anyway. A  ridgeseal and Roofseal behind the gutters is also an option too.   Rebating the concrete slab is not recommended by manufacturers of the   wall claddings as it is a trap for dirt and contaniments and is   corrosive to the ends of the wall sheets. 
Budget for  Electricity? This might cost more than you expect? The most  usable shed  spaces also have bright functional lighting making the area  safe and productive  24/7. 
A few other extras that can make life more comfortable in your Shed   A Lean-to roof, running out from the side of the shed protecting the main openingsRebates at roller doors, PA doors.If   a section for the shed is for vehicles that come and go regularly then   put in a remote motor on the door, you will be pleased you did.Ensure  that you have made the shed tall enough. What might you need to get  into the shed now or in the future. Bigger is generally better.Floodlights outside the Shed...A big plus! :2thumbsup:

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## tonyb4315

THANKYOU shedblog.com what an excellent response. You highight many of the questions that arise almost like a domino effect, like if cladding does that effect framing, which then effects roofing or slab and then engineering and then council and safety and weather. Great points. I was willing to install timber framing internally then some shed cos have suggested this is fine but others suggest it is like rebuilding from the inside and better to get right in the first place. I have been tempted to look at something in between a shed and a granny flat, as in something with steel stud fram type walls or a company that will strip back their granny flat to be closer to a shed. Granny flat kits will meet the engineering but not the open space rumpus/workshop type room as most seem to be made for the under 60m2 complying council development rule. Thank you oce again as even kicking these questions around and surfing the forum refines and clarifies the ideas. The shed is almost the hybrid, all things to all people or at least all things to the ideaist owner at the outset part spare garage for ride and tools, part games room for stuff that does not show up in the modern display home like table tennis, darts, beer fridges, hobby space, old daggy televisions, storage, music equipment etc. Go too far and it is a house, to far the other way and it is a hot or cold pile of colourbond or a perpetual work in progress towards man cave...I must search on to get the balance right. Thank you.

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## tonyb4315

UPDATE, thanks for the grest responses...From what you have told me I am leaning towards a shed that has a stud frame a a steel stud fram granny flat stetched to make a bit more open living as most squeeze under the council 60m2 thingo. ANyone out there tried the metal stud frame approach? did if work out for them? Did it cost heaps more? Did it need all new engineering for council recs? The hope is metal stud frame  should be better suited to later lining and variable window sizes and cladding options even if it is just corro  gone horro or the colourbond pressed in to a weatherboard look. Any thoughts on the stud framers? are they the go?
Cheers Ronovaters! :Biggrin:

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## pinger

> UPDATE, thanks for the grest responses...From what you have told me I am leaning towards a shed that has a stud frame a a steel stud fram granny flat stetched to make a bit more open living as most squeeze under the council 60m2 thingo. ANyone out there tried the metal stud frame approach? did if work out for them? Did it cost heaps more? Did it need all new engineering for council recs? The hope is metal stud frame  should be better suited to later lining and variable window sizes and cladding options even if it is just corro  gone horro or the colourbond pressed in to a weatherboard look. Any thoughts on the stud framers? are they the go?
> Cheers Ronovaters!

  My approach would be a bit different. Stud framing the whole thing is overkill as it will be costly. Basically it will be like building a steel framed house. It will not be cost effective for what the intended structure is to be used for. *UNLESS* you are allowed to build it as a granny flat and keep it as ancilliary or granny flat accomodation after the house is built. This may add value and be worth doing out of stud frame. Otherwise I would suggest not. (It is important to research this thoroughly). 
We see people all the time who go stupid with their temporary live-in sheds and cannot afford to build a house. Remember, it is a shed and you are only in there for a while. Make it comfortable but it is *not* your house. Sheds are lightweight steel structures but these days people expect the one shed to be a house/granny flat/mezzanine storage area/boat shed/ hay shed/man cave/ rumpus room/ home office/ torture dungeon/car storage/ equine stable/barn all off the one floorplan and all at the same time. 
If it is part shed and then one or two bays as office/rumpus space I would suggest firstly looking at companies who have live-in engineering for sheds. This is simply beefed up engineering (as the importance level of the building increases when it is used for housing humans!) designed to comply with the increased standard. It is typically still a c section or similar frame, but larger in size or heavier in guage. It may be that you can build two bays with live-in engineering and use normal shed engineering on the other two. This would ensure that the area can cope with loads created by lining, and also gives a stronger structure overall.  
I would recommend spending time inside an example of the shed your are going to buy so you can get your head around some of the challenges that you will face when lining it. As someone who has done a lot of this work, it is very important to know how you are going to turn this basic shed frame into a lined product that does not make your eyes bleed.  
As long as you know the limitations of a c section shed frame (ie you should not be adding gyprock without additional battening internally) and how to deal with the haunch and fixing brackets and apex braces internally (if it has them) then you can come up with some fairly innovative solutions to internal fit out. I recommend using corry sheets to the underside of the roof purlins to create a cavity and as ShedBlog said, insulate as you go. The roof is where you get the most movement and the corry sheets inside and out will make it rock solid.  
This leaves you free to batten out and gyprock, or again go with corry right to the back of the wall purlins and insulate the cavity. You just need to be aware that the main portal frame will "sit into" the room and has to be dealt with (or if you like the industrial look simply left open and ignored). I have seen people box them beautifully with timber and make them a feature, box them with metal flashings to hide, or even just make a super thick wall that hides the whole column within an insulated cavity. Alternatively I have seen the knee brackets redesigned and beefed up to remove the haunch, then roof battens added under the rafter and the whole roof sheeted on the rake in one plane under the rafters.  
As blog said, I would get whoever is building the shed to put the openings and the windows in, so the structure is engineered for them, and if shire do turn up it will bear some resemblance to the external plans. Likewise, shed windows and doors (often called face fit) are different to normal cavity style windows and doors which are designed to sit say within face brick cavity.  
Insulate, insulate insulate. You should definately partition the "office and rumpus" from the rest of the shed so that you are just insulating this area and can control the air flow.  
As Bloggy said if you want to add a touch of difference externally then you can typically accomodate alternative cladding by adding 25mm ceiling battens at appropriate centres vertically to your horizontal tophats. Your windows and openings in this facade must be able to be waterproofed so again a question of what style of window/door, will it be face fixed or sill fixed, and how do you waterproof it? Also, remember that adding 25mm battens to existing tophat battens moves the external cladding out 25mm, so allowances have to be made in the slab or bay size to ensure waterproof finish where cladding comes past the top of slab.  
As Bloggy said, councils get a bit funny if you put toilets/kitchens in these things as they do not want people living in sheds. I would check with them and make sure what you are doing is ok.  
And if the company you get to quote you does not know the above basic information, or does not ask you these above basic questions and try to design something for you to suit, don't deal with them. You will end up with a cheap product that satisfies none of your requirements.  
Even though the shed is engineered as live in I would doubt the shire will want anyone living in it, so perhaps explain to shire that you intend to line part of it for your workshop, which is why the live in engineering is being used. Most shires expressly forbid habiting in a shed.  
I hope I have helped.

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## tonyb4315

Pinger, what a great response, thank you and all of the forum followers...you raise excellent points. Some shed companies have raised  some of the points and other nothing. none of them all your points, so thanks for the response. You are right, this helps pick a shed provider quickly. Excellent advice. I think I am looking for a versatile shed, but the shed can too quickly become some sort of hybrid for everything to the hopeful buyer, so I best keep it real in that regard. I will hit the highway and get inside the sheds of some of these providers. A number of them have very little of their variations on display which is interesting. Thank you.

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## tonyb4315

Hi Pingerand renovaters. I just typed long post an hit submit BUt can not see it here. THE BASICS ARE: 
A) thank you, NOW you have me thinking, lining, ceiling CORRO versus gyprock, BATTEN material, and more? 
B) Do you screw corro if using it as ceiling lining to the top underside lips, as in same top hat holding roof sheeting? Does insulation space get tight this way as in does it squash batt against blankett rendering blanket less effective? IS this a fair bit better than gyprock because it strengthens the whole thing? I will also ask shed provider. 
C) DO you use that flatter looking top hat as verticals screwed against the back lip of the wall girts to save re building an internal framing against external walls?? Do you gyprock these or does it just crack with movement? Do you jam batts in here and use corro only again?? WOuld ply work  given its strenght or be too heavy?? 
D) Are those that use the expanding spray foam instead of the vermaguard plastic $10/m stuff crazy?? or is the commercial product the best way to go? 
CHEERS

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## pinger

> Hi Pingerand renovaters. I just typed long post an hit submit BUt can not see it here. THE BASICS ARE: 
> A) thank you, NOW you have me thinking, lining, ceiling CORRO versus gyprock, BATTEN material, and more? 
> B) Do you screw corro if using it as ceiling lining to the top underside lips, as in same top hat holding roof sheeting? Does insulation space get tight this way as in does it squash batt against blankett rendering blanket less effective? IS this a fair bit better than gyprock because it strengthens the whole thing? I will also ask shed provider. 
> C) DO you use that flatter looking top hat as verticals screwed against the back lip of the wall girts to save re building an internal framing against external walls?? Do you gyprock these or does it just crack with movement? Do you jam batts in here and use corro only again?? WOuld ply work  given its strenght or be too heavy?? 
> D) Are those that use the expanding spray foam instead of the vermaguard plastic $10/m stuff crazy?? or is the commercial product the best way to go? 
> CHEERS

  B. Yes, typically screw the corry on as an internal roof sheet to the underside lips of the Tophat65. Bear in mind you need to make sure your shed is very square, and your tophats very level if you want to pre-drill these sheets. With the narrow edge of the tophat you have much less margin for error than doing the roof sheets on top with the "fat" edge. 
I believe it is a better option than gyprock. Sheds are a lightweight steel structures that are designed to move. You will get the most movement in the roof. All colourbond sheets are the same Armour Grey colour underneath. A cost effective solution is to find someone with second hand salvage or coversheets of colourbond (sometimes used as top and bottom packers for sheeting). Flip them over, and line the shed in the continuous armour grey colour. You can purchase touch up paint to touch up the scratches.  
If you want to put batts in, and you aleady have an anticon or bulk wool product in the roof, then yes, they will be scrunched up a bit. As Bloggy said, I would recommend Kingspan Insulbreak 65 or Insulbreak80 in the roof and walls as it is a much lower profile of material than a building blanket, and it gives the added performance of a thermal break. Then add your wool batts to any cavities created.  
The reality is that sheds are not very thermally efficient structures, so probably not worth obsessing over too much.  An all metal clad buildings aregoing to heat up and cool down, fact of life. Correct choice of insulation will however make a big difference.  
C). We use 20 or 25mm ceiling batten when battening out internally. Corry, gyprock or ply are all suitable choices, with each having their advantages and disadvantages. As to whether gyprock will crack can't really comment. Would depend on the shed construction, batten spacings, strength (thickness) of gyprock chosen, batten centres, height of shed, wind zone and shed location.  
The cracking you will get will probably be only fine or seam cracking, so if you can live with that go for it. 
D). Spend the money and get the Vermaseal. Expanding foam is nasty stuff and hard to control once it starts coming out the profile of the sheet. Much neater to use a proper vermin proof. Note though, you will need to manually calculate the side wall sheets length to suit the vermin seal (taking into account the roof pitch and profile of sheeting). A competent custom shed builder can advise and order these correctly. We do it all the time in my business.  :2thumbsup:

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## tonyb4315

Thanks Pinger, great advice, and great pics on your projects in WA. This forum has been a great source of information. :Biggrin:   I am waiting on one quote to come in, but at this stage it looks like I can get about 110m2 of c section and girt styled shed kit delivered with  extr windows and insul break and erected for the same price as the kit alone on a bare bones granny flat kit stetched length ways to 82 m2 BUT the stetched granny flat means no garage bay, thus losing the effect of the shed in the race to upgrade, this may be going to far from the original idea and going through council as a dwelling by connecting it with breezeway to proposed house may have other pros and cons, OR a 7.5m by 12m stud frame shed, 90m2. This would be the middle ground as it could squeeze a single garage bay in, the studs will allow me vary window sizes and be ready to line and accommodate dhorro versus vertical cladding options BUT again it would land here as a kit at about the same cost of the c section and girt style building built (all excluding slab price). CHEERS :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## tonyb4315

Hi everyone, I have caught bits and bobs on this BUT my question is with plenty of 3.5 batts about cheaply, when Insulation and air cell blankets and foil lined or foil double sided product is at about 3 times the price, CAN THE BATTS BE USED STAIGHT UP, BY THEMSELVES WITH NO FOIL/AIRCELL/BLANKET, used first. ESPECIALLY if planning to line the ceiling? IT sTarts to get more expensive than the actual shed material if doing both foil/cell/blanket thingos, then batts. IS THERE A CHEAPER FOIL ONLY TYPE LINING AS IN NO CELL OR BLANKET, THEN JAM THE BATTS UNDER/BEHIND? IS PART OF THE TRICK OR THE GOTO THE VARIOUS BLANKET/FOIL PRODUCTS THE MOISTURE LINING it also gives? hence is there a cheaper lining only then jam on the batts. SECONDLY THE BLANKET/FOIL/CELL STUFF sounds great but the quoted shed builder on a 10.5 by 10.5 barn wants an extra $1000 to install it in the roof and another $1000 for the walls, thats labor only on top of the blanket costs, can I install something as good after it is BUILT? I WANT INSULATION AS EVERYONE SEEMS TO BUT WANT IT TO WORK AND WOULD LIKE IT TO BE CHEAPER THAN THE ACTUAL BUILDING PER M2, is THIS CRAZY? DOES GOOD OLD POLYSTYRENE IN THE BASIC CLASSS L? (NOT THE FANCY STUFF) WORK AS INSULATION ANY BETTER, THE BATTS SEEM TO BE THE CHEAPEST, but will mean lining with gyprock etc, will they work though without the blanket/foil??CHEERS ALL. :Doh:

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## pinger

> Hi everyone, I have caught bits and bobs on this BUT my question is with plenty of 3.5 batts about cheaply, when Insulation and air cell blankets and foil lined or foil double sided product is at about 3 times the price, CAN THE BATTS BE USED STAIGHT UP, BY THEMSELVES WITH NO FOIL/AIRCELL/BLANKET, used first. ESPECIALLY if planning to line the ceiling? IT sTarts to get more expensive than the actual shed material if doing both foil/cell/blanket thingos, then batts. IS THERE A CHEAPER FOIL ONLY TYPE LINING AS IN NO CELL OR BLANKET, THEN JAM THE BATTS UNDER/BEHIND? IS PART OF THE TRICK OR THE GOTO THE VARIOUS BLANKET/FOIL PRODUCTS THE MOISTURE LINING it also gives? hence is there a cheaper lining only then jam on the batts. SECONDLY THE BLANKET/FOIL/CELL STUFF sounds great but the quoted shed builder on a 10.5 by 10.5 barn wants an extra $1000 to install it in the roof and another $1000 for the walls, thats labor only on top of the blanket costs, can I install something as good after it is BUILT? I WANT INSULATION AS EVERYONE SEEMS TO BUT WANT IT TO WORK AND WOULD LIKE IT TO BE CHEAPER THAN THE ACTUAL BUILDING PER M2, is THIS CRAZY? DOES GOOD OLD POLYSTYRENE IN THE BASIC CLASSS L? (NOT THE FANCY STUFF) WORK AS INSULATION ANY BETTER, THE BATTS SEEM TO BE THE CHEAPEST, but will mean lining with gyprock etc, will they work though without the blanket/foil??CHEERS ALL.

  Tony, I don't mean to be a pedant, but that paragraph made my eyes bleed. It is hard to follow your train of thought when you dump your brain on the page.  
Tony, yes there are cheaper type products- you could look at an Insulshed50 style product, or Polyair Performa 4 which are both similar to the previously discussed insulbreak products, just slightly less effective.  
A sarking style product would probably be the cheapest, but it is obviously less effective as it is effectively reflective paper, and does not have the thermal breaking and insulating properties of the better products.  And it still has to be *installed*.  
Whatever you put up, labour will still be the same whether the product is el cheapo or top of the line. And a significant percentage of the total cost of insulating. Whay spend $2,000 dollars labour to install $300.00 worth of insulation? My theory is do it once and do it right. If the guy is on the roof put the best product in you can afford at the time.  
But, at the end of the day you need to make up your mind what it is? A shed or a house.  
The thermal break products like insulbreak, as mentioned do 3 things- thermal barrier (they limit the transmission of radiant heat through the steel frame), moisture barrier (they form a non permeable membrane to control moisture from getting inside the shed) and insulation (they reflect heat and trap heat in a continuous insulating cavity).  
The beauty about putting the insualtion on at the point of the sheeting (as previously discussed) is that the structure will be comfortable (in a relative manner) already with this first barrier. If you don't, it will be a stinking hot tin box *until you line and insulate EVERY internal wall and roof* and create a continuous air barrier to create an insulation effect. Think of the cost in time, labour and money of internally lining and cladding the entire shed walls and roof from the inside.  
If it was me, I would look at a compromise product like Insulshed50 or Polyair Performa 4 which is not as expensive as some of the other Insulbreak products. I would still be getting the installer to do the walls and the roof, because at the end of the day that may be all you decide to insulate. You may find it is ok in the rest of the shed, and then you can work on lining out the living area with more batts and gyprock at your leisure in an environment that does not resemble a cricketer's jock strap on a hot day.  
As a guide, we charge about $4 a square metre to install the Insulbreak, so your $1,000 labour walls and roof looks a bit rich to me. And why go a barn? Unless you need the height through the central bay say for a bigger rollerdoor they are more expensive per square metre than a shed.  
PS I would stay miles away from polystyrene.

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## tonyb4315

Hi Pinger and forum readers, A BIG thanks again PINGER you are smashing it, like the cricketers in WA. I was going to go the barn as that was the only thing the shed supplier I was going to use had at the dimensions I wanted and they said they could not customise any of their sheds, (interesting). I am though seriously considering a stud frame shed option, it seems to be about an extra 30%, but should go up easier as the walls and trusses arrive assembled and be eaiser to clad and line. YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH the question' is this shed or housing'?? Council will only let this go in as long as there is also a DA in the system for a house and YES we will build a homestead, long rectangular style house. It will have a double garage, but the modern double does not seem to have enough room for two cars to open their doors. On 2.5 acres where does the ride go etc? How long before one of the kids gets a car or bike etc? If at all possible I would like to get something better than the average shed in that could have up to two roller door bays and chip away at the potential of the other section that until it is at a finish that could be extra rumpus/office/art/music hobby space with a bathroom which, in phone discussion council, seems like it will get the okay as shed/workspace/storage. THANKS for your patience, we are definitely making progress. :Blush7:

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