# Forum Home Renovation Sub Flooring  Supporting house during restumping

## lililikestomeow

Apologies for the essay  first time poster  :Smilie:   *BACKGROUND:*
Im inheriting a 1920s Queenslander / workers cottage which has had no repairs & maintenance done for approx. 30 years. The house has approx. 45 stumps, all original, about 15 of which are embedded in concrete. A handful of stumps have fallen down. Most have been termite eaten and left to rot for so long that they just float in their holes. 
The block slopes down away from the street front: the front approx. 500mm from the ground, down to 2000mm at the rear. The land also slopes gently from right to left. 
There is clear evidence of the house sinking at the front right, with no stump left to support it, only sand and rocks inserted by a previous owner. It also appears to be moving down the slope at the rear, aided by stormwater overflow and vibrations from an underground highway. 
Due to broken guttering and downpipes, overland water flow is a major issue, as is, I imagine, underground water around the stump footings. *
DILEMMA:*
Sadly, the quote from the professional re-stumper was more than I could ever afford, but the chat we had about the re-stumping process was very enlightening. So that knowledge, coupled with the excellent information available on this forum, leads me to want to attempt DIY re-stumping. 
Ideally I would take it slow and replace one stump at a time. However I am concerned that the house is too unsafe for that. Timeframe is also a problem  we need it safe enough to move in within 2 months (when my lease expires), and ideally fully re-stumped within 5 months (when Im due to give birth to baby#2). My (reluctant) other half is unlikely to meet this deadline, so ensuring the house is at least supported by adequate sties is a BIG priority for me.  *THE PLAN:*
The plan is to support the house on sties, excavate (as much as possible, without exceeding 1m retaining walls) to improve drainage and ventilation, level the house to the chimney using 2x 20T hydraulic bottle jacks and some acrow props for extra safety, replace each stump with SHS 75x75x4 Hot Dip Galvanised steel posts (one at a time) in holes 400mm square and min 500mm down. 
I believe the soil is shallow gravel and it is highly likely that there are rock floaters close to the surface  so excavation for drainage and stump holes will be *fun*. Add to that some stumps encased in concrete, and were looking at a perfect job for a Brisbane winter.  *THE PROBLEM:*
Because the stumps are already over-packed, and rotted to spear-points in the sodden ground, I cant simply jack and pack the stumps to achieve level before replacing stumps one at a time. 
The professional planned to use 8 sties to support the house during levelling and re-stumping. Ive found conflicting advice about the sties  some say softwood so that you can hear it cracking and escape, others say hardwood, some say 90x90 is adequate, while others use 150x150. 
Ive measured and priced 8 pine 90x90 sties at approx. $3000+. If I need to use 8 hardwood sties instead, I believe the cost will be more than I can afford and I wont be able to prevent the house from falling down, let alone re-stump. However, as weve recently had termites, leaving softwood sties under the house long enough for my beloved to (eventually) complete this mammoth task may not be wise  *QUESTION:*
So, how do I keep this death-trap in the air while Im busy making babies? 
Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance  :Smilie:

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## joynz

Did you just get one quote?  If so, then get a couple more to start with.  Prices can vary a lot.

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## sol381

Bloody hell.. Ive been a builder for over 20 years and thats one thing i think i would never try myself...Youve obviously never done it before and its probably something you shouldn't attempt...Im sure you may not be able to get insurance if something drastic happened...as joynz said get a few more quotes...How much did the houseraiser charge.. 45 posts with concrete would be around $200 each.. you've got steel pfc plus the sties you talk about, which I'm sure are 150 x 150......i think you should do the actual sums first and compare.. I think it would only be a few grand difference at most and give you peace of mind...

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## Marc

Get more quotes, talk to the bank and take out a loan. 
The restumping is likely to cost about how much a decent second hand car is worth.
 You did not pay for the house, you will have to pay for the restumping not to mention a chemical barrier for termites, unless you want to have inherited just a bit of land in need to be cleared.  
Forget doing it yourself. It is not impossible but it requires a lot of enthusiasm and know how, fitness and resources. Being blunt here, but sometimes there is a limit to what you can do by yourself or what is sensible to expect to have the ability to do by yourself.

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## cyclic

Firstly, welcome to the site. 
May I say you seem to have educated yourself in the pros and cons of what you are planning, but I shudder at the thought of waiting for pine to crack before escaping 
 from under tonnes of house. 
You say you are inheriting a home which I believe means it is not yet in your legal possession, so if this is the case I would strongly suggest you do nothing until it is  
legally in your name. 
I also read your financial position is not good but when the home is in your name, will you be in a position to take out a Mortgage and get a Loan as already suggested,  
to finance the repairs necessary to make the Home safe and liveable? 
If so, then that may be the way to go because you must consider what your Lives are worth, and by the sound of it, you are gun ho but your other half is not,  
and if you are presently renting then maybe the current rent payment will cover a loan, however, if you are not in a position to do this, then the other option 
 is sell as already suggested, and move to somewhere you can afford because the Home you are inheriting may just become a money pit. 
Note, the above is not to be taken as Legal or Financial advice, it is simply information for you to consider.

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## lililikestomeow

Thank you everyone for your helpful replies. 
I agree 1 quote is not adequate but it scared me enough to be concerned = $27k not including any excavation (which is necessary because of the drainage problems). I've done a (very rough) DIY costing at $15k (with hardwood sties, also not including excavation). 
As you accurately picked up on - "inheriting" is a sticky point. In this scenario it means living with and caring for my children's grandfather, for an undetermined length of time. He is in no financial position to make the repairs, and at his age will not consider a mortgage (nor does he want to sell). With a 2nd baby on the way, I can no longer afford to work and even my current rent will be a stretch financially - hence the shared living arrangement. 
The house will likely be demolished one day when the current owner passes, however at this point in time we really just need a safe house for all of us to live in. I've calculated hardwood sties at approx $6000+. Would it be reasonable to put them in place just for safety? Not an ideal playground for my kids, but better than the house falling down.

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## phild01

An earlier thread: http://www.renovateforum.com/f198/re...brissy-108936/ 
What are sties?

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## lililikestomeow

Thanks, I'll have a read. 
Sties are alternating stacks of timber posts (like Jenga) that are supposed to support the weight of the house and stop it from sliding laterally. 
Is there a different method of re-stumping that wouldn't require me to prop the house up on sties? Perhaps if I didn't attempt to level the house at the same time, but prioritised simply replacing the rotten/missing stumps instead?

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## cyclic

> Thank you everyone for your helpful replies. 
> I agree 1 quote is not adequate but it scared me enough to be concerned = $27k not including any excavation (which is necessary because of the drainage problems). I've done a (very rough) DIY costing at $15k (with hardwood sties, also not including excavation). 
> As you accurately picked up on - "inheriting" is a sticky point. In this scenario it means living with and caring for my children's grandfather, for an undetermined length of time. He is in no financial position to make the repairs, and at his age will not consider a mortgage (nor does he want to sell). With a 2nd baby on the way, I can no longer afford to work and even my current rent will be a stretch financially - hence the shared living arrangement. 
> The house will likely be demolished one day when the current owner passes, however at this point in time we really just need a safe house for all of us to live in. I've calculated hardwood sties at approx $6000+. Would it be reasonable to put them in place just for safety? Not an ideal playground for my kids, but better than the house falling down.

  Insurance has already been mentioned, so that is one area you need to look into that is if Grandfather has it insured for replacement value, and a call to QBCC to find out just  
what you can and cannot do would be advisable, because you are doing structural work on a Home which is not your Home, so it is highly unlikely you will even be allowed under  
Owner Builder legislation.

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## Marc

The advice required here is emergency underpinning, with a bit of legal/social/financial on the side. Not easy. 
From what you say, the house is beyond repair so you want it to hold up for the time being until the time it will be demolished. 
The question that follows is, why?
You will be spending good money for something that is uninsurable and that you hope the council never finds out. 
You are probably going to spend the equivalent of 2 years of rent or more depending on the local market.
If the house is not yours, you don't have money to spare, can not take out a loan, nor have the expertise to do it yourself, short of a miracle it seems that the best option is to bring your father in law to live with you in a rented place and let the house be. 
If you are determined to live there, and the extent of the damage is not final, you could replace one stump at the time without lifting too much and forgetting the level, emergency underpinning. You can use anything for that, large rocks, concrete blocks, bricks, hardwood, steel ... I can't believe I am saying this but a repair "Moskito coast" style is possible with a lot of guts and determination.

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## lililikestomeow

It certainly is less than ideal. Thanks for the input. 
Anyone know of some home reno shows that are looking for a "project"?  :Biggrin:

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## joynz

Are you certain the house actually is unsafe at present?  Have you had an engineer look at it and do a report? 
If it is safe, then perhaps you don't have to replace all of the stumps.   
If it isn't safe, then you may still not have to replace all of the stumps, just enough to make it safe - and perhaps you could afford to do that professionally. 
It can be notoriously difficult living with extended family.  I would tend to see how that goes before investing too much.

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## Marc

What about pictures of the damaged stumps?, The more the merrier...

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## ringtail

So, starting at the beginning. If it was actually your house you would need a full owner builder permit as the value is more than $11k, which means doing a course and paying the dollars. Then you would need a building certifier as replacing more than 10% of anything structural ( stumps, wall studs etc...) requires building approval. A certifier would more than likely require you to get a soil test so the new stumps go down to the correct depth. However, since it's not your house you can't legally touch it.  Of course, this is if you want to play by the rulebook. If I were you I would engage someone that knows what they're looking at and address the key areas using licenced tradesman be they builders, chippies or stumpers.

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## intertd6

Engage a restumper as a consultant on an hourly rate, ring around some small country sawmills for the hardwood pig stye timber for a lessor cost,  I would define the work as volunteer home owner maintence for the owner.
regards inter

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## Pulse

restumping is much easier than raising since you only need simple tools. I had 25 stumps to do. I had 5 bottle jacks and 5 modified scaffold screw jacks. I picked a bearer at a time and jacked next to each existing stump. 
Use a laser level (indoor ok as it is dark under the house) and jack and prop until floor is level. Measure from flooring undersurface if the joists vary. 
5 bearers ran the length of the house so I just did up to 5 at a time. Stumps were 75mm shs suspended in hole from the bearer. The perimeter was done with minimix concrete. 
Sties and steel isn't needed unless you are raising or reducing the number if stumps. 
good luck, if you lived nearby you could borrow the jacks and props!  
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## intertd6

> restumping is much easier than raising since you only need simple tools. I had 25 stumps to do. I had 5 bottle jacks and 5 modified scaffold screw jacks. I picked a bearer at a time and jacked next to each existing stump. 
> Use a laser level (indoor ok as it is dark under the house) and jack and prop until floor is level. Measure from flooring undersurface if the joists vary. 
> 5 bearers ran the length of the house so I just did up to 5 at a time. Stumps were 75mm shs suspended in hole from the bearer. The perimeter was done with minimix concrete. 
> Sties and steel isn't needed unless you are raising or reducing the number if stumps. 
> good luck, if you lived nearby you could borrow the jacks and props!  
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  from what I read the house is in a state of near collapse, I for one wouldn't be going under something like that without some really stable temporary supports, nor the opinion of someone who does it day in day out.
regards inter

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## phild01

Yeah, their approach should at the very least include experienced guidance on site, and at hand, if they still insist doing it themselves.
Pull in more quotes.

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## lililikestomeow

Thanks for all the varied replies! 
Getting a 2nd quote tomorrow, so we'll see how that turns out. With the deadline to move in looming, we may have to get some emergency underpinning regardless of whether we end up using the professionals or DIY or somewhere in between. Will keep you posted.

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## joynz

Look forward to hearing how it goes and what you end up doing. 
Definitely suggest getting three quotes.

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## phild01

> Look forward to hearing how it goes and what you end up doing. 
> Definitely suggest getting three quotes.

  Meantime pics will always help getting opinion here.

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## Moondog55

What about large diagonal bracing on the downhill side as part of a temporary solution? Props plus ACRO props may just be enough to stop the house falling down while you decide what to do
Will need to be large timber as props tho [ or steel if that is cheaper] and perhaps others here can advise on that

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## cyclic

Just as a point of interest the old fella may have received a payout because of the tunnel going under the residence, as I know a lot of Home Owners in the Bardon Paddo and surrounds were paid for the current Tunnel going under their properties.. 
Was he paid or is there a chance he could make a claim ??.

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## David.Elliott

Dunno sounds like too much to me, however it's hard to make informed comment without seeing/pics.
FWIW, I had the stumper in for the cottage next door, most of that was in quite bad shape, worst drop was 150mm in the centre of a side wall.
I did have the floor out, and I'd be surprised if that did not have an effect on my pricing, but we paid 9500 for 67 stumps, 100 x 100, on 300mm x 300 sole plates from H5 treated timber.
About 20 of them were new for the verandahs...so nothing to jack at all...

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## lililikestomeow

I asked my other half to take some pics, but they were a bit too dark and too much junk in the way, so will take some more with a torch soon. 
To satisfy your curiosity cyclic: I believe compensation for the underground tunnel was $5k for every property affected, but it is highly unlikely that he still has it.

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## Moondog55

pictures from the outside as well are needed, and those corners are important especially the downhill aspect

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## lililikestomeow

Hi All, 
Thanks so much for all your responses and support. This forum is really very helpful and I'll have lots of questions to bounce off you in the coming months.  
With regards to our stump issue: spoke to an Engineer and they advised that [if we're careful] we can replace the stumps one by one without the need for timber sties, just hydraulic jacks and acrow props. So we've got a bunch of acrow props, 2x 20T hydraulic jacks, a laser level, a selection of hardwood pieces for sole plates, and some rusty old shovels for digging stump holes.  :Redface: ) 
I just have a couple more [minor] questions: 
1. Our "level" point is a bearer the runs horizontally through the back of the chimney. The plan is to replace stumps one bearer at a time [max 5 stumps per bearer]. Do I set the level to the underside of the "level" bearer and jack until they are level, or is there a different method? 5 bearers are parallel to the "level" bearer, but 3 bearers are perpendicular. Is that a case of just projecting the level line out to wherever I am jacking at the time? 
2. The plan is to dig stump holes 450 round x 900 deep, with min 200 concrete pad at the base. If we hit rock before reaching that depth, do we try to break through it and keep going, or is that solid enough? I'd like to pre-order the new steel stumps to save on delivery fees, but there is a real chance of hitting rock. Should I just order once the holes are dug [i.e. 5 at a time]? 
3. To coach screw a steel post into the hardwood bearers, do I pre-drill my holes? Can you recommend a drill that can handle 100yr old hardwood? 
4. Some stumps are either bordering or encased in a concrete slab. How do I go about breaking up the concrete around the stumps to ensure appropriate hole size? The slab is just an old carport, but the least damage to it would be better. Any more tool recommendations? 
As ever, your input is much appreciated  :Redface: )

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## justonething

> Hi All, 
> Thanks so much for all your responses and support. This forum is really very helpful and I'll have lots of questions to bounce off you in the coming months.  
> With regards to our stump issue: spoke to an Engineer and they advised that [if we're careful] we can replace the stumps one by one without the need for timber sties, just hydraulic jacks and acrow props. So we've got a bunch of acrow props, 2x 20T hydraulic jacks, a laser level, a selection of hardwood pieces for sole plates, and some rusty old shovels for digging stump holes. ) 
> I just have a couple more [minor] questions: 
> 1. Our "level" point is a bearer the runs horizontally through the back of the chimney. The plan is to replace stumps one bearer at a time [max 5 stumps per bearer]. Do I set the level to the underside of the "level" bearer and jack until they are level, or is there a different method? 5 bearers are parallel to the "level" bearer, but 3 bearers are perpendicular. Is that a case of just projecting the level line out to wherever I am jacking at the time?  *The principal behind it is to have your floor level. Whether you measure from the top or the bottom of the bearer will depend on what is more accessible. Assuming the joists sit on top of the bearer and the floor sits on top of the joists. If the joists are the same width and bearers are the same width and floor boards are same thickness. Then it would be OK to measure from the bottom of the bearer. Generally, the closer to the floor it is the better it is.*  
> 2. The plan is to dig stump holes 450 round x 900 deep, with min 200 concrete pad at the base. If we hit rock before reaching that depth, do we try to break through it and keep going, or is that solid enough? I'd like to pre-order the new steel stumps to save on delivery fees, but there is a real chance of hitting rock. Should I just order once the holes are dug [i.e. 5 at a time]?  *If it is 900 deep, then you'll to go to approx that deep. If you hit rock at 300 then you've got to go through it. If it's 800, it may be alright. Check with your engineer. If you've a demolition breaker it's not too hard anyway.* 
> 3. To coach screw a steel post into the hardwood bearers, do I pre-drill my holes? Can you recommend a drill that can handle 100yr old hardwood?  *Just a normal drill with HSS bit will go through hardwood no problem. Search the net and found these levelling stumps top and base. You can adjust the height to a certain extent, It may be what you need.*   
> 4. Some stumps are either bordering or encased in a concrete slab. How do I go about breaking up the concrete around the stumps to ensure appropriate hole size? The slab is just an old carport, but the least damage to it would be better. Any more tool recommendations? 
> A demolition breaker.  
> As ever, your input is much appreciated )

  There are others probably with more experience will give you their take. Here is mine.

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## Marc



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## ErrolFlynn

I post this as a curious bystander.  But it occurs to me that if this house is on a tilt shouldn't all the stumps be adjusted simultaneously and progressively.  To jack up one at a time may load that stump exessively and at the same time reduce loading on neighbouring stumps, all of which may result in an unstable situation or damage the building due to twisting.

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## intertd6

> Hi All, 
> Thanks so much for all your responses and support. This forum is really very helpful and I'll have lots of questions to bounce off you in the coming months.  
> With regards to our stump issue: spoke to an Engineer and they advised that [if we're careful] we can replace the stumps one by one without the need for timber sties, just hydraulic jacks and acrow props. So we've got a bunch of acrow props, 2x 20T hydraulic jacks, a laser level, a selection of hardwood pieces for sole plates, and some rusty old shovels for digging stump holes. ) 
> I just have a couple more [minor] questions: 
> 1. Our "level" point is a bearer the runs horizontally through the back of the chimney. The plan is to replace stumps one bearer at a time [max 5 stumps per bearer]. Do I set the level to the underside of the "level" bearer and jack until they are level, or is there a different method? 5 bearers are parallel to the "level" bearer, but 3 bearers are perpendicular. Is that a case of just projecting the level line out to wherever I am jacking at the time? 
> 2. The plan is to dig stump holes 450 round x 900 deep, with min 200 concrete pad at the base. If we hit rock before reaching that depth, do we try to break through it and keep going, or is that solid enough? I'd like to pre-order the new steel stumps to save on delivery fees, but there is a real chance of hitting rock. Should I just order once the holes are dug [i.e. 5 at a time]? 
> 3. To coach screw a steel post into the hardwood bearers, do I pre-drill my holes? Can you recommend a drill that can handle 100yr old hardwood? 
> 4. Some stumps are either bordering or encased in a concrete slab. How do I go about breaking up the concrete around the stumps to ensure appropriate hole size? The slab is just an old carport, but the least damage to it would be better. Any more tool recommendations? 
> As ever, your input is much appreciated )

  On #2 if you hit "a" rock (floater) keep digging, if you hit bedrock, stop digging.
regards inter

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## justonething

> I post this as a curious bystander.  But it occurs to me that if this house is on a tilt shouldn't all the stumps be adjusted simultaneously and progressively.  To jack up one at a time may load that stump exessively and at the same time reduce loading on neighbouring stumps, all of which may result in an unstable situation or damage the building due to twisting.

  That's why I find this crowd has some interesting products: Levelmaster, House stumps, Restumping, Foundations, Screwpiles, screw. They said on their website, you can adjust the height with a spanner, no jacking required. (I have zero experience with them at all, just got the link from google)

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## Marc

> That's why I find this crowd has some interesting products: Levelmaster, House stumps, Restumping, Foundations, Screwpiles, screw. They said on their website, you can adjust the height with a spanner, no jacking required. (I have zero experience with them at all, just got the link from google)

  Lots of very good product in that link. 
To the OP, in relation to "level" 
A 100 years old house had 100 years of sinking leaning and getting out of level if it was ever leveled in the first place. No laser level in those days. 
So.
If it is me, particularly considering your comment that this is temporary and it will be demolished in the near future ... I wouldn't go jacking up to level just because.
I would consider each stump on it's merit. Dig a proper footing yes, yet jack up very carefully and when you feel that there is sufficient weight on that point, stop and fit the new stump. You will not get the house leveled, all you can achieve without damage is to make it stable. 
Jack all up to level and crack everything else inside and outside and get all doors and window jammed.

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## InsaneAsylum

Good luck. I dug 3 stump holes by hand and it bloody near killed me.

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## PlatypusGardens

Wow this is right up there with the bloke jackhammering away under his house...   :Shock:    *There is a reason why some jobs cost a lot of money to have done!*     :No:    
Attempting to do something like removing all the housestumps at once, jack the house up and (presumably) do a bit of work "when you have the time" can turn it to weeks, months, years... 
Torrential rain, high winds, lack of time - things that can slow you down and potentially lead to disaster.
not to mention the seriousness of the task at hand.  
Either get it done by the pros or do one stump at a time if you must do it yourself    :Smilie:

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## Marc

Yes, one stump at the time, but I question the feasibility of levelling the bearers in an old house. It will do more damage than good.

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## PlatypusGardens

> I question the feasibility of levelling the bearers in an old house. It will do more damage than good.

  
Yeh like you said, if all doors and windows open/close as it is now, bringing everything to level will most likely change things.
 Maybe even pop a few windows. 
Unless your dinner plate is sliding off the table I would 't worry too much about squaring things up.    :Smilie:   
I doubt it's this bad....

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## notvery

Not sure if its relevant to any of the pics above, maybe the second one has an example of it, but the dutch built their houses with the front walls leaning forward so they looked like they were drunk and falling over, this was so they could us the pole out the top to block and tackle stuff up to the required floor without scraping the building the whole way.  
could be a load of old B0110cks and they just claimed that to make up for their stoner builders building wonky houses

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## PlatypusGardens

Haha. 
Still doesn't explain the ones leaning sideways and backwards.   
(the first pic is from Norway BTW, the old harbour market buildings. They were working on fixing up one of the end ones while we were there)

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## Marc



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## METRIX

I think below is the answer to the OP problem.

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## PlatypusGardens

Is that Michael Moore?

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## travelislife

How is the OP getting on with this out of interest?

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## Moondog55

It seems they have disappeared but I'd have been interested as well as it is/was/could be an interesting project

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