# Forum Home Renovation Decking  Ryan's deck blog

## ryantdoyle

Hey Guys,  
Well we're now into week 3 of building our deck and thought i'd post some pictures for you all to see! 
The roof is still to be constructed - hopefully in the next week depending on the weather! (Damn rain!!)

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## Bloss

Great looking deck  :brava:   I hate to be the one to rain on your parade, but if the picture with the cat in it is how the sub-floor was when you put the decking on you have some problems coming down the track IMO.  :Frown:  
From what I can see you have simply skew nailed (mostly with a single nail from each side) into the ledger to attach the joists to the ledger and it looks like the same at the outer bearer too. That will hold for a while, but is not sufficient fixing for the long term (not BCA complaint either) - normally I would have used joist hangers or at least triple-grips given I was unable to have the joists sit on top of the bearer.  
My guess is that within a fairly short time that hardwood will shrink back and the nails will not be holding as well as when they were put in. Over time they will become corroded and even looser and movement will start from the dynamic loads on the deck (ie: people using it). Eventually the nails will rust (even if gal as they look to be) and the joint between the bearers & joist will fail - probably not through any catastrophic collapse and it is a low deck so not dangerous as a high deck might be with similar fixings (which i have seen done!). 
This could take some time - or it could happen within two years or so (depending on rainfall heat and so on), but it will happen. You might well be happy to leave it as it is, if it were me I'd be making the effort to lift a few boards to get access to that ledger and putting in some triple grips. At the outer bearer you might have enough access - or you could insert some long gal coach screws (hex head or recessed) through the bearer and well into the end grain of the joists (two for each joist), or bolt up a ledger to the bearer and under side of the joists. 
Anyway it looks great and is even a bit over-engineered in that nice DIY way, but if what I think I see is how it has been put together I reckon you should be doing that bit extra for your own peace of mind and for any future owners too. But your call obviously. 
BTW - Have read of my post about bracing here: http://www.renovateforum.com/f196/mo...63/index2.html you will need to think well about that when you get to do the roof and to be well aware of the much different forces at play on a roof structure vs a low deck. No skew nails other than as temporary fixings on the roof structure - or you might just lose it sooner than later.  :Frown:

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## ryantdoyle

Thanks for the advice mate, I actually just went outside after reading and saw that the builders have put two hex head screws (about 4in long I believe) into the other side of each of the beams. 
The roof will definitely be screwed / bolted and not nailed  :Smilie:  Everything in fact so far has been screwed in place - only the gal nails from the nailgun to hold things in place until screws were put in.

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## Bloss

No worries - the long gal screws will last a lot longer and grip better too although will eventually suffer the same fate - but probably not before the deck is ripped off and replaced!  :Smilie:  That's the thing with pics - we only get to see bits and pieces - can't replace on-site inspection. You'll love using that deck and in 'Brisvegas' you will have year round usability when the roof goes on.  :2thumbsup:

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## fineform

how will the builders be attaching the pergola roof to the house roof?

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## ringtail

Looks great mate, and not a piece of pine in sight. Love it.( Sorry bloss, just stirring). I do , however agree with everything in bloss's post and there is one more thing. It would appear from the pics that you dont have 75 mm clearance from the ground for your posts and it looks as though some would actually be sitting in the water today in Bris. The centre bearer is below natural ground level - naughty naughty. The block should have been cut away from the house so water wont sit there - granted when the roof is on it might not be a drama but with rain like we are having it still might be. Looks great though mate. I should have put a quote in - lol. :2thumbsup:

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## Bloss

> Looks great mate, and not a piece of pine in sight. Love it.( Sorry bloss, just stirring).

  That's nice looking hardwood that's for sure - if I could just get that in the ACT . . .   :Frown:  As to the timber sitting in water - why would that be a problem for you HW lovers?   :Biggrin:   :Wink:

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## ringtail

Those posts might get a bit of collar rot eh, but seriously, the certifier wont pass it without the visible termite barrier of 75 mm and unless the subfloor is treated H3/4, it should be 300 mm min above NGL for ventilation and termite inspection. The joists and bearers would be gum of some description - DC2, the posts look like forrest reds which are DC 1 as far as I'm aware, so rot wise they would probably be ok.  Maybe those T - blade style of stirrups would have been better to get the clearances right.  
Message to the OP - quiz the builder about the 75 mm clearance, 300 mm clearance for sub floor and what the certifier will say.

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## ryantdoyle

The yard has a slight slope to it going away from the house... very little water has puddled around the footings except for in the exceptionally heavy rain periods.  
The clearance at the furthest point from the house is around 45cm.

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## ringtail

G'day mate. I really encourage you to have a very close look at your plans. Look to see if there is mention that termite management shall comply with BCA parts 3.1.3 and 3.4.1.  Even if the rest of deck complies, *you must have minimum 75 mm clearance from the bottom of the post to the ground. The concrete must also be domed up so water does not pool around the footing.* That is the bare minimum termite requirement and one that the certifier will / should be really anal about.

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## ryantdoyle

It's only about 50mm... I remember the builders mentioning 75mm when they were raising the posts... Am I screwed?!  :Frown:

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## ringtail

Well technically, yup. But you ( builder) can drill a few half inch holes next to eachother through the post, then chisel it out enough to get the recipro saw in there to cut the bottom of the post off. A lot of people think that the post has to sit on the cross bar of the stirrup for strength. In fact it is not meant to at all. Sitting the post on the cross bar is a magnet for rot and ants. The 2 x M 12 bolts are more than enough to transfer the load to the footing. I only mention this because it appears thats whats happened. Of course it depends on who the certifier is and whether he is a " mate " of the builder. You should definitely make the builder fix it, and anything else that does not comply with the code. You could call the certifier and have a inspection done before it goes too much further - because its his bum on the line if he approves it.

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## jkirky

The subframe looks like black butt and merbau posts? Nice... 
Remember when measuring the post height from the ground that the ground may have been raised by back fill which can skew the measurement... In one of the pics it looks like their is a degree of sand backfill... 
I wouldn't be overly anal about the post height if you built it yourself, but if it's a payed job i would get them to fix it... 
The certifier issue isn't really the issue IMO as i have seen stacks of new buildings certified without the 75mm inspection clearance. More to the point that it's good practise rather than panicking about the certifyer. It is important to be able to check the post for insect damage. 
Anyways, excellent looking deck... 
I have a similar deck and used roofextendas over the roof which bolt to the rafters and the internal beam... I would use these again in a second as they give good piece of mind however they can be a pain to install if you have a tin roof...

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## shauck

> I have a similar deck and used roofextendas over the roof which bolt to the rafters and the internal beam... I would use these again in a second as they give good piece of mind however they can be a pain to install if you have a tin roof...

  How's that jkirky? I have a tin roof and am considering this option.

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## thomo

Hey Bloss 
I'm also in Canberra and I don't understand your inference in your post of 9 January that you can't get hardwood in Canberra.  :Confused:  
I had a fairly large (41.8 sq mts) decking completed in August last year using Victorian Mountain Ash and there no problems with supply.  I left it for nearly 2 months then cleaned down with Reviva followed by 2 coats of Intergrain Natural Oil and it looks great. 
Thomo

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## jkirky

If your raising the roof line roof extend as are compulsory IMO... However think about the ease of accessing the rafters with tiles- just lift a few tiles out and easy peasy...  
With metal roofing you need to lift the relevant sheets to access the rafters which has 3 issues... 
1. It's a lot more work than lifting the odd tile
2. It's summer and the tin gets bloody hot and a pain to handle...
3. Once your done you have to realign the roofing screws 
All of these aren't too hard but as an accumulative effect it is generally a Pain in the butt... 
Like I said though, as far As i am concerned, if you want to raise the roof, you have no option...

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## Bloss

> Hey Bloss 
> I'm also in Canberra and I don't understand your inference in your post of 9 January that you can't get hardwood in Canberra.  
> Thomo

  Depends on what one reckons is 'good' hardwood. Not suggesting hardwood is not available - that would be silly [and few think I am silly - well not often anyway and not to my face.    :Smilie:   ] There has always been hardwood as a choice in the ACT and region and up until the late 60s nearly all houses were framed using it as were majority of decks etc. But IMO and experience the quality offered in the ACT vs that which was available (and still is) in Nth Coast BSW and Qld just do not compare. The ACT HW IMO was never as good as what I had used in the North and that remains the case. 
I love timber and Australian hardwoods are simply lovely with a huge selection of colours, grain markings and so on. But if you read my posts you will see that I am also practical and I want a good technical result - and in the ACT that often means using TP not hardwood. As a matter of practical outcome for DIYers in the ACT they are likely to get more consistency if they use TP than hardwood - unless they select the timber themselves (and know how to do that - few will have the knowledge [or an experienced Dah like I had] to give them that ability). 
Technology has been superb in making the use of hardwood less of a problem - many of the issues are much less of a problem now. Aside from the physical handling issues due to the density of HW (where the weight means two are needed when one could manage equivalent softwood framing) the new power tools- nail guns, saws, drills, impact drivers - and the fixtures and fittings designed to be used with them, mean that choosing hardwood can be easier. 
So I am not a 'hardwood' bigot or TP advocate - there are plenty of choices and they'll all work.  But for so many the fact is they want the utility from whatever they are building or having built - they are less interested in the materials it is made from than they are in using the structure. That's why steel sub-flooring is often a good option ( especially in a dry climate like the ACT - not so much this summer!). So far as the parts of the structure that are never seen (such as most of the under deck area or behind claddings) then why care at all about what is used - use the cheapest that meets the specs (since it is never or rarely to be seen. So HW decking (Oz or imported) gives the appearance needed as does HW cladding over steel posts or TP pots and so on. 
For those who like the colours and appearance of hardwood - use hardwood - I do! BTW - I like mountain ash, but it is not one of the better choices for external use (Class 3 above ground and Class 4 below). Although like most timbers it will give reasonable service if well maintained (and there's the rub - I have oregon on two of my three decks that has been in place for coming on 20 years and in near new condition - I have seen similar structures where rot has appeared within 3-4 years, because it was not well maintained).

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## Bloss

> With metal roofing you need to lift the relevant sheets to access the rafters which has 3 issues...

  Not necessarily a need to lift the metal roof - simply mark & cut the hole at the right place as per the destructions provided for the roof extenda brackets (and seals) - Roof Extenda - Shade Sail Anchor - Roof Extenda Pty Ltd . Certainly if access is impossible without lifting then there is no choice, so depends upon roof design) and if the panels can be lifted that is the preferred way, but it is possible and not all that difficult to do with roof panels in situ (with the right bracket design too!). In this case I think the intention is to replace the tiles - so the brackets can be done around the roofing replacement (or through the tiles if not being replaced).

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## ringtail

Hi all, just back on line after the floods.  
Firstly - yes, you need to ultra anal about the 75 mm post clearance and all other anti - termite measures. Why, well, they are termites, and the slack builders cause most of the issues with termite infestations. Having the deck eaten is one thing, but providing a bridge into your house is another thing all together, and thats what is most important. The deck and subfloor is pretty tough chewin' for the termites but your house ??? Secondly, its the law, enough said. 
On the roof extendas - tin or tile makes no real difference. Sure the tiled roof is way easier to access but you still have to do ultra neat, time consuming work cutting the tiles so the pissy little flashing that comes in the kit will fit. Otherwise you have to go and spend another $ 45 per post and get a proper lead collar / neoprene flashing to effectively flash over the complete tile. The flashing that comes in the kit is perfect for a tin roof and only just useable on a tiled roof. Pulling a sheet of tin up is no big deal and you know that the tin wont crack or break. To do it properly the tin should be removed so you can drill through the rafter aswell as the top plate, and for that you need room.

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## jkirky

Bloss, you really do need to lift the sheets with roof extend as to do it properly you should be side bolting to the rafters... as I said, it's not that bad but it is a pain- annoying Job, particularly when handling tin in the warmer months... 
Ringtail, I believe you mis interpreted my post, I was rather saying no need to be too anal about the 75mm clearance as a requirement for the certifier... Ie, Private certifying is a somewhat "loose" practise. Well at least from my experience and observations. This is mainly due to the building proff. Board having very minimal powers. To my knowledge only 1 certifier has had their licence revoked since the instigation of the Board. It is simply not a black and white process (even though it probably should be)

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## Bloss

> Bloss, you really do need to lift the sheets with roof extend as to do it properly you should be side bolting to the rafters... )

  Well no actually - been there done that many many times and bolted to rafters as per instructions - without lifting a  sheet. As I said - sometimes you can sometimes you can't. As I also said this looks like it will be able to be done in conjunction with replacing the roof with metal or through existing tiles - in which case lifting the metal roofing is not a concern. 
Most on these forums are DIYers albeit often very competent - removing roofing is IMO not a simple task and has a range of issues (and dangers) that are not always apparent to a novice or less experienced person. 
In any case I offer options not prescriptions - there are usually many ways to do a job and each has it pros and cons - I reckon forum users can read the posts and decide which one they prefer and which suits their own skill and abilities for the job they are looking at doing.

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## ringtail

Slack certifiers dont change the BCA. Whether they choose to ignore it or not is niether here nor there. The bottom line is the deck has to comply and if it doesnt the client has every right to make the builder comply. And you are right, it should be black or white, well it is, just some certifiers and builders think its a bit grey as aswell.

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## stevoh741

[quote=Bloss;828093]Well no actually - been there done that many many times and bolted to rafters as per instructions - without lifting a sheet.quote] 
Not to diss you or anything Bloss but can you tell me how when the hole is only big enough for the bracket I would have trouble getting my hand in the hole let alone a drill with room for leverage to fix it. The only way I can think of is to climb inside the roof but with qld summers and redbacks :Eek:  I'd rather pull a sheet...

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## Bloss

[quote=stevoh741;828213][quote=Bloss;828093]Well no actually - been there done that many many times and bolted to rafters as per instructions - without lifting a sheet.  

> Not to diss you or anything Bloss but can you tell me how when the hole is only big enough for the bracket I would have trouble getting my hand in the hole let alone a drill with room for leverage to fix it. The only way I can think of is to climb inside the roof but with qld summers and redbacks I'd rather pull a sheet...

  You'll just have to take my word for it .  .  . a few people reckon that's enough . . . But I say again can't always be done, sometimes can. If you don't see how it can be - don't try.  :Cool:

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## ringtail

I definitely dont want to rattle the bee hive, but I too cannot see how it can be done. I can see 2 vertical coach screws into the top plate been do-able but to cut a 65 mm round or square hole, feed a drill through the hole so it drills perpendicular to the rafter + your hand ??? The only possible way to do this maybe, is with a right angle drill attachment or a flex drive drill but I still cant see it happening, unless the roof has a pitch of 35 degrees or more that might just give you enough room to belly scrape your way across the ceiling joists to get out to the rafter/top plate. Enlighten me oh wise one.

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## Bloss

I cheat! I cut a larger hole - 100-120mm and usually can get my cordless Makita drill in there no problems - but as you guessed I have also used a right angle drive too. Even with the RoofExtenda seal there is still plenty of cover around the base to keep it watertight, but I have also used the standard or Ezi-seal Dektite weather seals too - the DFE 5-120 square base accepts pipe of 5mm to 120mm and has a base of around 220x220mm so gives easy cover and bit more room for error. But as I said - I am not prescribing anything to anyone - and sometimes it just can't be done that way. I also wear a rigger's glove . . . Certainly I have not seen a factory installation description my way, but then I generally read those only when all else fails.  :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

Sweet as

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## Schumi

Hi Guys, 
What other options are there out there to create a fly over roof, other than Roof extenda and the varity that Scotts metal sell on thier website. Do pryda make a similar post. 
Anthony

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## ringtail

No other options as far as I'm aware. I used to fabricate my own posts ( like the scotts) until I used the extenda posts. Small hint, always go for the heavier duty ones ( S 300 ) as they are far more substantial than the standards and dont cost much more. They may have to be ordered in for you , which is no big deal.

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## Bloss

:What he said:  That's another of my 'cheats' making my own brackets. I have seen but not done fabricated supports off reinforced fascia supporting a beam and the joists then cantilevered back over the roof.

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## Schumi

I will head down to the local B and see what the cost of the roof extendas are. As far as the flashing for these on a tiled roof would my best method be to attach the supplied boot to an aluminium flashing plate, similar to this http://www.deks.com.au/pdf/dektite_aluminum_base.pdf. 
I am leaning towards this option for my roofing as I only currently have 2500mm from my facia to my floor level and this option will aid in air flow whilst also raising the height of my roof.  
Thanks 
Anthony

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## Trei

Ryant,
       Great looking deck !! out of interest what are the dimensions of your deck. can you post any of your drawings of it ?  
Cheers 
Trei

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## ringtail

That sounds like a plan with the flashing or you can go to a plumbers supply and get the real deal, pretty pricey though for a lead flashing with the rubber decktite on top. But silicone and rivet the original flashing to a ally flashing would do the job just as well. I have in the past drilled into the tile and used blue plugs. Have to be very very gentle - no hammer drill, just a masonary bit in a cordless drill, heaps of sika, 4 screws, tidy it up with turps. I got a small pot of paint mixed the same colour as the tiles and paint the lot so it blends in a bit. I dont know if B stock the roof extendas, if not go to a builders supply - they can order in if required. I paid about $ 72 each for the S 300 version from memory.

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## jkirky

The buntings centers in my area stock the roofextendas, however they are tough to find. Usually they are placed amid the pryda brackets and stirrups. May be different were you are... I payed bout $70 last time. If you aak for it, good chance the workers won't know what your talking about so just keep looking! 
Good luck!

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## stevoh741

you can just go to a steel fabricator and have them made to whatever size you want - and it is not as dear as you may think. I get everything fabricated then hot-dipped gal and is comparible to pre made bought ones.

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## ringtail

The main reason I now go for the roof extendas is the ease of installation. If you go for a fabricated post, you need to make sure it is pretty spot on perfect sitting on the top plate or the roof beam will be out of alignment. The roof extenda give yousome leeway due to the upper section that rotates on the thread until locked up.

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## Bloss

> The main reason I now go for the roof extendas is the ease of installation. If you go for a fabricated post, you need to make sure it is pretty spot on perfect sitting on the top plate or the roof beam will be out of alignment. The roof extenda give yousome leeway due to the upper section that rotates on the thread until locked up.

   :What he said:  - and depending where you are you might not have easy access to a fabricator/ steel engineering shop that will galvanise too. Even if they are around often they will not always do small jobs, if they do you will need to provide exact specs and if it's wrong that's your call. Can't take em back! That's one of the things I miss about being in the country - you get good access in a smaller community with maybe only one or perhaps two such places available and people willing to help, give advice and for a decent price. Sometimes you can jag it in a larger place, but not often - and that's if you are in the game. DIY - forget it and go the ready made (or like me make it yourself if you have the knowledge, skills & gear).

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## jkirky

Not only can it be hard for the diy'ers to get access to certain services, but when you do quite often the price proves to be a negative economy. You
U may save a little dough, but spend hours upon hours of extra time. I revert to custom fabrication when a suitable part simply is not available. If a reasonable part is available commercially it almost always works out more economical to use the readily made device. 
The roofextendas are a good product, and whilst a little costly, by the time you fabricate an alternative, ensure it's corrosion treated and buy flashing, you would have finished the job and enjoying it should you choose the easier alternative.

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## stevoh741

All true but the roof extenders are a piddly little round posts that can look funny under a large roof. Fabricated 75mm square posts look better to me.

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## ringtail

I reckon it depends on the gap between house and flyover. Ive done them with a 1 metre gap and fabbed up some 75 x75 rhs posts with cross bracing between the centre 2. Looked good and proportioned. A lot of people only want a small gap so the rain doesn't mist in, so I use the extendas for these as the roof beam only sits just above the oringinal roof  and you can only just see the posts.

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## Bloss

:Wat they said: 
horses for courses sometimes looks better with some bulk other times not. Like all building - a bit to do with the technology a lot to do with the aesthetics. And I generally leave the aesthetics to those who care a lot about them! I am a function over form sort of bloke (mostly just couldn't give toss, although I know what I really, really don't like!) so leave all that appearance stuff to someone for whom it matters (of course sometimes there arises a neat coincidence between a technical requirement and my aesthetic preference that just has to over-ride the aesthetic view of others . . .  :Wink:  ).

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## ryantdoyle

Hey guys! just thought i'd post some more pics  :Smilie:  
Roof went on today and the decking is all finished. The extenda brackets are awesome and we're very please with the finish  :Smilie:   
Now for the weekend when the sanders / stain comes out  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Thats awesome man. Those extendas look like the S 600 's ? which are about 10 times beefier than the standards. Sweet. Got to love the LVL's for the rafters eh. Interesting that the builder went with hardwood roof beams front and rear with what looks like a glulam beam in the centre. I would have just used LVL's for everything - cheaper and lighter. Looks bloody good though mate. :2thumbsup:

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## Bloss

Looks great! 
But . . . and take this the right way, I think that looks like cyclone or strong wind fodder. I can't see any multi (triple) grips or other ties that would hold the battens to the rafters and especially the rafters to those beams.   :Frown:  http://www.pryda.com.au/uploads/Pryd...ber%202010.pdf 
Maybe it's my old eyes and those pics , but if you are relying on screws or worse just nails then I'd counsel against doing so. I know the gal metal brackets look very ordinary, but so does your roof in your next door neighbours yard or a few blocks away. 
Paint them to hide them if you want - but use them please.  If your builder did it I'd be having a chat - not much work to put them on, but great peace of mind and in Brissie not optional IMO.   :2thumbsup:

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## ringtail

I did notice that aswell bloss - in the pics before the lid went on, then sort of forgot to look harder at the finished product. So yup, agree x 2, needs *a lot* more tie down than just nominal fixings. The bugger now is the fact that its hard to put triple grips on  - limited swing of the hammer for the vertical fixings so might have to go the twisted joist straps or those bloody horrible looking multigrips

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## Bloss

Joist straps I was thinking. Better a bit of inconvenience now than disaster later . . . :2thumbsup:

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## woodchip

Thanks for postings the pics, a great looking deck!, 
The main area of concern with pergola/veranda roofs is to hold them down,(not to hold them up). Some kind of strap to hold the rafters onto the bearers is critical & Trip-l-grips are perfect for that, once painted or stained they blend in, try to get the nail from the top(into the top of the bearer), but imo if you cant no problems, as long as you get 4 each into the sides of the rafter & bearer, as they do the holding down. 
I probably would not of bothered with the diagonal strap bracing as once the metal roofing is on it acts as a huge brace, others may disagree, but all bracing helps. 
A custom made colourbond flashing (approx $60) along the top high side of the roof, would finish it off beautifully. 
well done.
cheers
Woodchip

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## Danos

Looks very very nice.   
What is the requirement for the steel bracing I see under the battens? 
Also, the center beam is bigger than the others - is it because of a change to the timber? (pine vs hardwood) 
Cheers
Dane

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## ringtail

The speed brace is to prevent racking from wind pressure and the centre beam is bigger because of the single span

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