# Forum Home Renovation Bathrooms  Villaboard clouts vs screws

## Theman

Started sheeting the ensuite, and I've bent more clouts than I got in. Mainly in the corners. I was thinking of getting screws for the tough areas. What screws should I use? The JH website only states screws for going into steel framing. Any thoughts?

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## sol381

I take it you are nailing into hardwood.. What type of clouts are you using..You can use toughened head nail if you like. if you want screws try these. Ive never used them but they are for FC sheets. 8g x 32mm FibreFix Cement Board Screws pack 100

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## Theman

Lol yeah hardwood. And it's hard hardwood lol. It's no too bad but corners and near roof and floor are the worst. Wow that's pricy. Maybe I'll just swear some more lol. I'm goin to bunnies today. So hope they have an equiv.

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## sol381

$10 for 100 screws pricy?. Cheaper than most standard screws at bunnings.  Good luck.

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## Theman

Never said bunnies was cheaper, or other screws were. Just stated they were pricy

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## Theman

Is there a suitable screw at bunnies. Can see any listed online

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## phild01

Those screws look the go but that isn't pricey.  If I were you I would use a fibre cement nail because you are going in at angle by the sounds of it and the screw heads won't end up flush.  Just pre-drill a smaller dia hole.  Bunnings used to sell a box of about 100 gold drill bits of all sizes for about $20.  Fantastic set that are as sharp and durable as anything I have ever used. Can't seem to find them now.

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## inferno6688

go to another hardware store and try a different brand of Clouts.  
I recently found the same thing. I first bought a box of clouts from Masters (otter brand i think), they went in nice and easy. My 2nd box was from bunnings and they kept bending. First time i have noticed difference with different brand nails.

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## METRIX

> go to another hardware store and try a different brand of Clouts.  
> I recently found the same thing. I first bought a box of clouts from Masters (otter brand i think), they went in nice and easy. My 2nd box was from bunnings and they kept bending. First time i have noticed difference with different brand nails.

  Like most stuff Bunnings stock, it's low end cheap ass, it would be good if they actually supported Australian companies, instead of the multi national big players who bring in low quality stuff. 
OTTER still manufacture nails and screws here, as well as importing from Taiwan (Taiwan quality is very good)

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## David.Elliott

Did Otter manage to survive?  Masters suppliers raise payment concerns

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## r3nov8or

You'll need to predrill for screws. You could predrill 1mm smaller than your nails and see how they go then

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## Theman

Yeah I ended up predrilling around 70% of the holes. Still bent heaps. But worked better. Screws were worse. Just tore up the villa board.

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## METRIX

> Did Otter manage to survive?  Masters suppliers raise payment concerns

  Airco Fasteners bought them out.

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## Marc

With galvanised nails there is a problem with the way they are galvanised. 
I was a fitter in BHP when we made nails in the Australian Wire Mill in Chiswick and saw this first hand. Galvanised nails were made then in a very primitive way. The steel nails were thrown in a turning drum over a large burner together with zinc bits and the whole lot would turn over the fire. The zinc melts at 420C but in order for all the nails to be covered evenly, the process was prolonged and the temperature raised accordingly. At 600C the nails are cherry red (dark red) and the process was suspended. By then the 1010 steel wire used to make the nails would have annealed and lost the little stiffness gained in the manufacturing process where the wire is stretched cold pulling it through a series of dies to reduce it's diameter from the original 1/2" or 5/8" to the required nail diameter.
New methods of galvanising nails by immersion in molten lead first to clean it and then zinc as it is done with fencing wire surely exist, but I have never seen it. It would be a challenge to keep the nails apart until they cool down but it is, by today's standards, a very low tech operation. 
If a galvanised nail is stiff as one that is bright, you know they have used a different method from the traditional burning drum. 
A good description of different methods of galvanising nails below, yet surprisingly no mention of the change in mechanical properties. https://www.mazenails.com/resources/...ils-specs#zinc

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## ChocDog

> I was a fitter in BHP

  I reckon someone needs to start a new thread titled "the many lives of Marc". Fitter at BHP now revealed, you mentioned selling bobcats out of shipping containers the other day, a pretty strong background in chemistry/materials (adhesives at one stage perhaps?) and I think (from what I say on another post yesterday) that you are currently the in-house barista for some business...!

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## Marc

Ha ha, a bit patchy there, and missing many details, but I bet other people have had many jobs and many activities too.
How about you Choc?   :Smilie:

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## OBBob

Ha ha, I've often wondered if you are about 150 years old. I think CD left blacksmith off the list.

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## Optimus

Also  built that house out of recycled timber

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## Optimus

Built more decks using camo screws than anyone on this earth.. 
The blokes a legend

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## ChocDog

> Ha ha, a bit patchy there, and missing many details, but I bet other people have had many jobs and many activities too.
> How about you Choc?

  Me? No, my work history is relatively boring; studied engineering and have always worked in engineering/project & commercial management roles. Find it fascinating to talk with people like yourself who have picked up a diverse set of skills and experience over the years. I’m never one to answer those threads on forums such as “what do you do for a job” because mine’s pretty dull to outsiders, but would be keen to hear more about your background and quite a few others on here that’s for sure.

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## Marc

Well ... don't know about fascinating ... surely I've been in situations and done things most people only see in the movies. Yet I'm very happy doing boring everyday stuff this days. Keeps me busy and most importantly alive, even if it is fixing decks with Camo or importing machinery  :Smilie: 
By the way I have also fixed decks with a coil nailer and nailed by hand and ...

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## OBBob

Ha ha, look at the profile we've manned to build on you... imagine how much Facebook knows with their constantly churning algorithms.   :Biggrin:

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## METRIX

Don't forget Dentist, driving around in his Rolls Royce  :Smilie:   :Smilie: , maybe he is reincarnated and has lived 3 lives  :Smilie:   :Smilie:

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## OBBob

> Don't forget Dentist, driving around in his Rolls Royce  , maybe he is reincarnated and has lived 3 lives

  Buddhist dentist?

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## Bedford

Marc is actually a closet environmentalist that loves saw milling and Detroit Diesels! :Biggrin:

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## mudbrick

At one point he also mentioned making a living cutting up trees that had fallen on people's roofs, and being a chainsaw instructor to boot lol!

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## Marc

Yep, pulled trees off houses after storms more time I care to remember ... things you do to survive. As far as being a chainsaw instructor, you are making that up. 
I had my first chainsaw at age 14 or may be 13. A Mcculloch 200 brand new. Today I have a small collection of 4 vintage Homelite from 45 to 100 cc. Lovely things that cut through anything, all bought off ebay US.
 The 100cc belonged to the New York Fire brigade if the writing on the side is authentic. 
I wouldn't want anyone else to use them since none have safety brake.

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## Optimus

Isn't he a motivational speaker too?

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## OBBob

I reckon it's great... not everyone manages to live a life full of such varied experiences.

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## Optimus

Oh don't get me wrong i think its awesome too..              
If it were all true....

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## OBBob

> Oh don't get me wrong i think its awesome too..              
> If it were all true....

  Perhaps wait for the book... coming soon to a Cash Converters near you.

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## Optimus

Hahahaha 
I'd be shocked if he hasn't already written a book too... 
I'd still read it though  :Doh:

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## ringtail

> Well ... don't know about fascinating ... surely I've been in situations and done things most people only see in the movies.

  See, I told ya. Forrest Gump.  :Biggrin:

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## ChocDog

> See, I told ya. Forrest Gump.

  I was more so thinking either Kevin Spacey as Verbal in The Usual Suspects “I used to be in a barbershop quartet in Skokie, Illinois”, or Alyson Hannigan in American Pie “this one time, at band camp”… 
Sorry Marc   :Wink:

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## ringtail

Maybe he was picking coffee in Guatemala with Verbal. Not sure if Marc would be sticking his flute in the same place Alyson did. The skin flute maybe but not the musical abomination  :Roflmao:

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## Marc

Very funny. 
So let me see if I understand, you actualy think that the few little things I share with you from time to time are so extraordinary to be hard to believe?
boy oh boy your life must be dull...and brief...and shallow...
Its allright with me.
 You keep on being you, i keep on having fun being me.

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## mudbrick

I'd just love to know how you jump from one career to another like that. 
My career has been more like Chocdogs, at a big company along the BHP lines.
started fresh out of uni and been there near 20 years! The place refuses to go broke
or move to China like most of the others. 
I'm actually considering spending some of my long service trying something totally different, 
working for a plumber, builder or whatever but I keep thinking that's crazy and I'd be better off
spending it on a beach in Fiji!

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## OBBob

> I'd just love to know how you jump from one career to another like that. 
> My career has been more like Chocdogs, at a big company along the BHP lines.
> started fresh out of uni and been there near 20 years! The place refuses to go broke
> or move to China like most of the others. 
> I'm actually considering spending some of my long service trying something totally different, 
> working for a plumber, builder or whatever but I keep thinking that's crazy and I'd be better off
> spending it on a beach in Fiji!

  I did a decade and a half stint considering the implications of moving for about half that. When I finally did, it was amazing to find life and new experiences on the outside after all that time.   :Biggrin:

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## Marc

> I'd just love to know how you jump from one career to another like that. 
> My career has been more like Chocdogs, at a big company along the BHP lines.
> started fresh out of uni and been there near 20 years! The place refuses to go broke
> or move to China like most of the others. 
> I'm actually considering spending some of my long service trying something totally different, 
> working for a plumber, builder or whatever but I keep thinking that's crazy and I'd be better off
> spending it on a beach in Fiji!

  It was never a choice Mudbrick, things are different when you live in a murderous $hitty country. Then you come here with a family a few bags and need to start again. You can fit a lot of life in 60 years when your priority is survival and not carreer.

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## ringtail

If you're bored, quit and do something else. Most people can't bring themselves to take the plunge purely because of money - or more precisely, the hideous amount of debt they're in.

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## METRIX

> If you're bored, quit and do something else. Most people can't bring themselves to take the plunge purely because of money - or more precisely, the hideous amount of debt they're in.

  Someone once told me Money is the root of all evil, quite possibly true

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## METRIX

> If you're bored, quit and do something else. Most people can't bring themselves to take the plunge purely because of money - or more precisely, the hideous amount of debt they're in.

  Agree, it's not all bad on the other side, most people spend to their salary, lot's of salary spend lots, smaller salary spend more wisely. 
People on big salaries tend to waste money on un-necessary materialistic garbage because they think it makes them happy, or they have to because their friends have this and that.

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## Marc

> Someone once told me Money is the root of all evil, quite possibly true

  Almost right ... The lack of money is at the root of all evil.  :Smilie:

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## mudbrick

Ah, debt you say Metrix. That's another reason I've stayed on, to get the mortgage done and dusted
as quick as possible. Trying to buy my freedom if you like. Thankfully the big companies always put your pay in the bank
every payday and you don't need to go chase anyone for it. 
Bring on that long service leave, at about that time I'll be making the last mortgage payment when I pop that first longneck in that hammock in Cairns or nail that first noggin for that builder or spade of @@@@ for the plumber  :Smilie:  
Damn what a choice. Wonder what future there would be for a 40yo apprentice plumber...
And no thats not bragging, 20 years in a factory sure as hell is nothing to be jealous of, just pointing out there was some little glimmer of method in the madness and hopefully light in the tunnel LOL. 
Anyway off topic, this thread used to be about nails!

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## ringtail

> Almost right ... The lack of money is at the root of all evil.

  Ha, not quite. People that think money is the best measure are the root of all evil.

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## OBBob

> Ha, not quite. People that think money is the best measure are the root of all evil.

  Almost. It's actually people that are the root of all evil.   :Biggrin:

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## ChocDog

Nah, the exact opposite - I find it damn interesting! I really enjoy your "intro" stories before launching into advice and help. Keep it coming. Same reason I enjoy autobiographies - reading about people's background and experience fascinate me. 
Thread about Nails??? I don't think we need to stress about getting back on topic, the OP declared he was leaving the building and never returning!!!    

> Very funny. 
> So let me see if I understand, you actualy think that the few little things I share with you from time to time are so extraordinary to be hard to believe?
> .

   
==============================

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## Marc

> Ha, not quite. People that think money is the best measure are the root of all evil.

  the concept "money stinks" is born in a twisted misinterpretation of the bible and perpetuated for centuries by bitter individuals that having condemmned themsevs to a life of guilt through sexual deprivation turned sometimes into sexual depravation, find pleasure in adding load and guilt on those foulish enough to believe them. 
Money is just a universal tool. How we obtain it and how we use it is what makes as all different. To say money is wrong is as foolish as saying guns are wrong.
Money is a good measure of a person's character, not so much the ammount he has or recieves periodically but rather how he uses it. Watch how a person spends his money and you will know more about him

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## r3nov8or

I just saw on Today that a study shows one needs $5.3 million in the bank to feel rich. WhereTF are we heading?

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## Marc

That can only be a local and very limited "study". I can assure you that each person on this thread would have a different figure in mind and each would most likely be wrong.
5 millions can be spent foolishly rather easy after all. 
A practical measure of how rich you are is to measure how long you can sustain your current life style without working, rather than thinking in how much you need, in order to change it.

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## OBBob

> ...
> A practical measure of how rich you are is to measure how long you can sustain your current life style without working, ...

  Maybe Tuesday.   :Biggrin:

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## Marc

i told that to my brother who is an eye surgeon married to an eye surgeon ... he told me he was very poor ...  :Rofl5:

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## westcoaster

Ive never understood Villaboard. It says not to use screws or stud adhesive. I believe that it is because it is a 6mm layered product and the screws effectively weaken the attachment point by 50 percent as head buries itself into the product. The clout head doesnt enter into the sheet rather it sits on surface and holds it in

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## johnc

My understanding is that not gluing is because of movement, you want the sheet to move with the tiles not the studs otherwise you get cracking. Clouts are probably better than screws because of the reasons mentioned, certainly a proud screw head is a bigger nuisance than a clout which needs no more than an extra belt with a hammer to get it flush.

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## phild01

My understanding is that the adhesive merely holds the back layer of the villaboard and this is a weak connection for the weight of the tiles.  The need to use 9mm villaboard for the bigger tiles underlines the importance of being able to hold the weight of the tiles.

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## mudbrick

Exactly right Phil, if you glue the back of the sheet and have heavy tiles on the front you may end up with the tiles and front layers of the sheet falling off the wall as it is essentially unsupported. 
The FC nails hold the whole sheet to the wall, in theory.

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## sol381

Thats why you nail the hell out of any sheets that carry tiles.. Normally 200mm centres along studs.

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## Oldsaltoz

Just make sure you seal each nail/screw with a sealant. To prevent leaks and to protect the metal from oxidizing and growing. 
Good luck and fair winds.  :Smilie:

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