# Forum Home Renovation Bathrooms  setting new toilet bowl

## burraboy

We've had to reseal and retile the bathroom because of some serious leaks and are up to the stage of installing another toilet bowl.
  Looking at the options, using silicone rather than concrete looks more user friendly for my skills.  I wonder how efficient the silicone is by itself at forming a stable connection and how necessary it is to screw the bowl down as well.  Screwing would mean drilling thru the tiles and 25mm concrete bed and then thru the membrane into a 19mm tempered masonite floor sheet.
I'd be interested in your opinions.

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## cyclic

This has been asked a lot of times, here is the latest.http://www.renovateforum.com/f209/floor-tiling-115316/ 
You will also find more _opinions_ in Plumbing but you may have to go back a bit. 
Let me set the record straight once and for all. 
Concrete (plaster sand and cement) was used under Pans in my early years of Plumbing for 2 reasons. 
One was we never had Masonary Drill Bits let alone a decent Electric/Hammer Drill to drill floors, and Floor Plugs were Lead Plugs we made ourselves, not Plastic, 
and the second reason was to get the Pans level on what were often uneven Floors. 
Then came Brass Screws which stood the test of time but would actually corrode from Urine and eventually snap, and for levelling we would use Lead Sheet pieces, and in those days Pans were fixed to Vinyl and Timber Floors with only Screws, not always Concrete or Tile Floors. 
Then in the early 70's Silicone came on the scene introduced mainly by Lysaghts for Zincalume Roofing, but as it became more available, every Plumbing Inspector thought it was a good idea to seal around the Pan to stop Urine etc. getting under the Pan while still using Screws and Pan Guards. 
Then some Circus Clown in the Joint Committee/Government decided to remove from the National Code for Plumbing, the words "In A Tradesman Like Manner" and that is when lazy Plumbers decided Silicone would hold the Pan to the floor without Screws and sometimes, done correctly, it does, but sometimes with even the slightest bump or being used by a larger than usual Person, it does not. 
Lastly, drilling through a Waterproofing Membrane is stupid, so I must agree, get your Licensed Plumber to install your Pan using Silicone if she knows how to do it correctly, and only if the Pan is sitting firmly on the Floor not raised for levelling. 
Here endeth my information and rant session.

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## Marc

The last time I saw a plumber setting a pan in sand and cement on tiles (and without screws) was 15 years ago.  
Today every plumber I know and have seen at work uses silicone and nothing else. 
The pan does not sit on the floor but on the bead of silicone. Initially the pan sits on 3 or 4 spacers to overcome the inevitable unevenness of almost any floor and to level the pan since the floor is not leveled but has a fall. Then the silicone is squeezed under and around the pan, spray with water w/detergent and smooth with finger w/cling wrap  and let to set for a little bit. 
Once solid enough to hold the weight of the pan without squeezing the silicon out remove the spacers and patch up with more silicone. 
Once the silicone is cured (24 hrs) you will need a sledge hammer to move it. 
If you ever need to remove the toilet you just cut the slicone unblock or whatever you need to do and set back. If you had done it on cement  you would be up for a new toilet seat and a very messy clean up.

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## cyclic

> The last time I saw a plumber setting a pan in sand and cement on tiles (and without screws) was 15 years ago.  
> Today every plumber I know and have seen at work uses silicone and nothing else. 
> The pan does not sit on the floor but on the bead of silicone. Initially the pan sits on 3 or 4 spacers to overcome the inevitable unevenness of almost any floor and to level the pan since the floor is not leveled but has a fall. Then the silicone is squeezed under and around the pan, spray with water w/detergent and smooth with finger w/cling wrap  and let to set for a little bit. 
> Once solid enough to hold the weight of the pan without squeezing the silicon out remove the spacers and patch up with more silicone. 
> Once the silicone is cured (24 hrs) you will need a sledge hammer to move it. 
> If you ever need to remove the toilet you just cut the slicone unblock or whatever you need to do and set back. If you had done it on cement  you would be up for a new toilet seat and a very messy clean up.

  If a Tree falls in a Forrest does anyone hear ?
If a Pan comes adrift in a Bathroom does anyone see ? 
My point is simply everyone has a story of seeing Pans installed but only the Home Owner or Plumber gets to see them when they have come adrift. 
In regards to sand and cement, my early years in Plumbing were the 1960's.

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## burraboy

Thanks for your replies!  I expected diversity of opinion and certainly wasn't disappointed.  I will take appropriate steps for my own circumstances.
cheers,  burraboy.

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## burraboy

> Thanks for your replies!  I expected diversity of opinion and certainly wasn't disappointed.  I will take appropriate steps for my own circumstances.
> cheers,  burraboy.

  Just letting you know what I did....  
-first step was to place the pan in final position and mark its outline on the floor with masking tape.
-then I worked out how much packing was required to get it level.  I used 3 points as reference, the middle of the front and then 2/3rds down each side towards the back.  The measurements were something like 6mm at the front and 4mm at the sides.
-then I took the pan off and turned it upside down and put 3 dabs of silicone on the bottom of the rim at the three reference points where I had measured the packing required, and using plastic over the top, pressed the dabs down to the required thicknesses and let it all set for a couple of days before removing the plastic.  That worked well, there was very little give in the silicone and the pan set very nicely level just like that.
-the last step was to turn the pan upside down again and run a generous bead of silicone around the rest of the bottom rim between the already cured packers.  Then carefully, right side up and using the masking tape on the floor as a guide, lower the pan into final position.  Excess silicone squeezed out the sides was cleaned up with one of those nice little tools from bunnies and the masking tape was pulled up to leave a clean finish and a level pan. 
Plenty of use since and that pan is firm as.  It's not going anywhere!  Thanks for your advice  :2thumbsup:

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## barney118

I just had mine done by plumber. I had to drill into slab and install plastic brackets L shaped. Installed pan using screws through the toilet with plastic washers into L shaped brackets just installed.Run a bead of silastic around pan used kitchen bathroom silastic with mould protection. Job done.  
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## plum

> I just had mine done by plumber. I had to drill into slab and install plastic brackets L shaped. Installed pan using screws through the toilet with plastic washers into L shaped brackets just installed.Run a bead of silastic around pan used kitchen bathroom silastic with mould protection. Job done.  
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

   Are you seriously suggesting your plumber couldn't drill concrete and screw the ' L' brackets to the floor?

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## barney118

> Are you seriously suggesting your plumber couldn't drill concrete and screw the ' L' brackets to the floor?

  No figure of speech.  
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Marc

There is a tendency, particularly among older tradesman/women to believe that the "old" way to do things was better than the new ways. 
Of course "better" is a relative term. Better then what? 
Whilst you think about what better means, I am sure you can think of something that used to be done better and something that is currently done better.
And the currently done better wins hands down. May be not due to better skills but usually due to new skills new products and new tools.  
The apparent yet non existing controversy about installing a toilet bowl with screws vs silicone only, is one such case. Yes you can cement it down like it was done before, you can drill through the waterproofing, you can use an oval shaped mold and pour concrete around the bowl to shape a sort of base for it (just to make sure) and many other creative ways. However the simplicity of siliconing the pan to tiles is so simple and so effective that not to accept is as the way to do it is not particularly clever. You can keep on soldering copper pipes or you can try the crimping tool, I can use a hammer but I choose a nail gun, I can use a hacksaw but prefer the thin grinding disk, I can use a water hose but favour the rotating laser level, and many more example.

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## phild01

Agree, pan screws, a bit like training wheels for a silicone newbie.

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## Raidenx

I just got my new back to wall toilet installed. My plumber friend installed the toilet and left me to do the silicone job and said just to silicone around the pan and no screws are needed but I didn't want to risk the pan coming apart if a heavier person sits and rocks on it. 
So what I did was after he left I slide the the entire toilet system back. The toilet came with plastic angle bracket so I installed it onto the floor tile. Slide it back and screwed in the screw. Then Silicone around the pan. Toilet wasn't exactly level.
When the tiler installed the tile he made a slight fall towards the dry floor waste. So the right side of the pan is about a few mm lower than the left side. I am not sure if this will be an issue if the toilet isn't exactly level but the toilet isn't rocking.
I could get the silicone bead under the pan as well because it's back to wall toilet and the waste is going into the wall (P trap) so if I put the beat of silicone and slide the pan back it'll just get smeared around. It's been just over 3 weeks since I the silicone and everything still seem fine but again we don't use this toilet since we got 3 toilets in the house. 
One thing I didn't do is water proof the toilet floor. It is separate from the bathroom.  
Now I'm a bit concern about toilet not leveling and not having waterproofing underneath the tiles.

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## phild01

It's not good to just run silicone around the sides, it is better that the pan should be set down on the silicone.

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## Raidenx

> It's not good to just run silicone around the sides, it is better that the pan should be set down on the silicone.

  Yes, I agree with you there Phil. however because the toilet is back to wall and the waste pipe is on the wall which is very difficult to run a bead of silicone on the bottom of the pan without making a huge mess. I bought the Bunnings Mondella Rocco.
I did push in silicone under the pan as much as possible plus the L bracket with screws holding the pan down. The silicone is mostly sealed so the urine and water won't go under the pan. It's been quite stable so far. 
What would be the best method to get the bead of silicone under the toilet pan. I have another toilet I will be installing soon. It's the same Mondella Rocco back to wall pan set and P trap waste into the wall. 
If it was a S trap than I can just put the toilet into position and mark the outline on the tile and run a thick bead and drop the toilet down.

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## Marc

Why not setting it in concrete? :Biggrin:

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## phild01

Be sure everything is clean.
Outline the floor tiles with masking tape a few mm outside the pan footprint, level pan with glazing silicone blocks then elevate pan from these, be generous with the silicone (glass acetic type), but keep it just within the masked area, place the pan so silicone oozes out.  Remove most of the excess silicone, remove masking tape, spray it all with soapy water and use a silicone blade to profile the silicone against the pan.  Paint Partner 4 Piece Silicone Scraper Set I/N 1660196 | Bunnings Warehouse
The masking tape will help you not make a mess, the soapy water stops any further adhesion of the silicone outside the adhesion zone.
Don't silicone to wall.

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## Raidenx

> Be sure everything is clean.
> Outline the floor tiles with masking tape a few mm outside the pan footprint, level pan with glazing silicone blocks then elevate pan from these, be generous with the silicone (glass acetic type), but keep it just within the masked area, place the pan so silicone oozes out.  Remove most of the excess silicone, remove masking tape, spray it all with soapy water and use a silicone blade to profile the silicone against the pan.  Paint Partner 4 Piece Silicone Scraper Set I/N 1660196 | Bunnings Warehouse
> The masking tape will help you not make a mess, the soapy water stops any further adhesion of the silicone outside the adhesion zone.
> Don't silicone to wall.

  That's exactly what I did and used no. 0 to profile the edge so silicone is sitting flushed under the pan but only I didn't put the bead of silicone under the pan and used the Silka C AP sanitary clear silicone which is neutral curing silicone. The floor tiles are glazed gloss porcelain. Should I have used the acidic cure silicone?

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## phild01

Generally glazing silicone is acetic cure and preferable for this.

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