# Forum Home Renovation Sub Flooring  Better to use Bearer and Joists or Slab?

## Art Martin

Hi,  I am considering the idea of owner building on my block of land, I'm doing some preliminary costings to determine potential feasibility of the idea. 
<o =""> I have two general questions I'd like to get some advice.
<o ="">  I have a flat block. 250square house to go on it. Economically, is it "generally" considered more expensive to lay a slab or use bearers and joists? (M class slab would be required). For a slab, I've determined that I should be able to get the concrete sorted for about $13000-15000 + formworks and plumbing. Does anyone know what extra costs formwork and plumbing "generally" add? Assuming that I will be employing someone to do it. Is it more expensive (generally) to purchase prefab trusses and frames than making them yourself(cost of wood, nails etc). I'm not talking about install, as I will do that myself.<o =""> Please note, these are very general questions, and I'm certainly not expecting anyone to provide details specific answers. Just general opinions from experience or knowledge. I really appreciate any advice
<o =""> As a final note, I've read mixed reports about whether it is worth it to owner build? Certain Project home companies are building 45 square homes for 200 odd thousand+ site costs, and they don't look half bad. That’s less than $500 a square metre, which would be very hard to beat in todays climate.   Thanks in Advance</o></o></o></o>

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## ausdesign

Greetings Art 
I'm surprised this post hasn't been replied to as yet with so many avid timber floor posters around.
I'm not biased so I'll say generally if the site has less than 300mm fall over the house area then a slab will be more economical. 
Having said that there are a lot more considerations to look at such as the style of the home & whether it would be better suited to a slab or a raised floor for looks [& resale] etc.
As far as the roof trusses go - you can't make them. You can build the roof 'stick by stick'. As to which is cheaper usually comes down to how wide the open areas are.
As for the wall frames, prefab will be quicker & dearer than constructing the walls yourself on the proviso that you can buy the timber at the right price & that you have an inkling of how to go about it correctly.
Hope that helps for starters.

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## journeyman Mick

Art,
do you work full time? If so, when are you going to build your house? Time is a very big factor and a slab, formed and placed/finished by a pro will significantly reduce building time. A pro will supply formwork which will save you having to buy a heap of timber which you won't really be able to use for anything else as it will have dags of concrete all over it. 
You can buy prefabbed trusses or you can pitch a stick roof. The latter is time consuming and can be quite tricky. If you've never pitched a roof before, imagine it's a practical geometry test, but every time you work something out wrong it means you waste a few $$ worth of timber. :Frown:   
You'll easily stand a roof full of trusses in half a day with two blokes and a crane if you know what you're doing. the same size roof hand pitched might take a week or so. (time = $$$$$$$$$) Can't comment on prefab wall frames as I've never used them, but they would certainly save you lots of time.  
Is it worth it? Depends, how much time can you spare? How much money could you make in the same period if you were at work instead? What skills and tools do you have? How much do you need to learn? Watch a good chippie framing a house and it will look easy, if you've never done it before and you haven't spent much time on a building site you may be hard pressed to do it in twice the time, and chances are it may not be square and true. 
Pros:
you may be able to save money (maybe)
job satisfaction
learning new skills
able to incorporate your own touches/features 
Cons:
it may cost you more money
it may cost you lots more money
it may be a very stressful experience
it may cause marital problems (I'm not kidding, seen it happen)
you won't have much of a life while it's happening
you may make mistakes that you won't identify until much later
you may find it difficult to get good tradesmen, after all the good ones are generally pretty busy with an established clientele.
you generally won't get the sort of discounts that people in the trade will get.
You'll probably need to spend a lot of money on tools (Some might say that this belongs in the "pros" section :Biggrin:  )
You'll probably need to hire some equipment and scaffolding which most builders/tradespeople would own. 
Not saying you can't do it, but judging from your questions you would have a very big, steep and potentially expensive learning curve ahead of you. 
Mick

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## ian

Art
The only person I know who did a successful, low stress owner build was employed by one of Abignano's subsidaries as a project manager.  He built residential tower blocks for a living, could cajole his subbies into working for him between fitting out a block of units, knew at a glance what work was to spec and what was shonky, and was not fazed by using a big piece of kit where a normal builder would use something small.   
The point? Despite all his experience and knowledge and preparation he still got burnt by his floor tiler who insisted on using a screed bed on top of a slab specially prepared so the tiles could be glued straight on with the result that where the tiles change to carpet there's a small step that shouldn't be there. 
So how much building experience do you have?
How much are you willing to learn before you start?
How much TIME do you have? 
ian

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## bitingmidge

> Cons:
> it may cost you more money
> it may cost you lots more money
> it may be a very stressful experience
> it may cause marital problems (I'm not kidding, seen it happen)
> you won't have much of a life while it's happening
> you may make mistakes that you won't identify until much later
> you may find it difficult to get good tradesmen, after all the good ones are generally pretty busy with an established clientele.
> you generally won't get the sort of discounts that people in the trade will get.

  It will almost certainly cost you more! 
I don't want to sound harsh, but if you  need to ask the questions above, you don't yet have the resources to build in a way that will save money. 
Don't think you will learn as you go along (you will learn a good deal), but there is a price you will pay for your education. 
Mick's comments on time are very valid, although I don't know of an owner builder who would be capable of finishing in only "twice the time", so again you will have to factor a greater interest cost into your equation. 
Remember that finance will also be difficult to obtain.   The finance institutions know only too well the hazards that beset owner-builders. 
Finally, see all of Micks "Pro's".  If either of the middle two are more important to you than cost, then you should give it a go! 
Cheers, 
P

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## elphingirl

> Pros:
> you may be able to save money (maybe)
> job satisfaction
> learning new skills
> able to incorporate your own touches/features 
> Cons:
> it may cost you more money
> it may cost you lots more money
> it may be a very stressful experience
> ...

  Hi,
Just some comments from our own owner-builder experience (we co-ordinated all trades, and started with an awesome carpenter who got the whole frame up for us): 
Pros: Except for the saving money part, all correct,  
Cons: 
- We were about $100,000 over the original budget (often due to thinking we would do stuff ourselves, sometimes design choices meant a later trade was very very expensive)
- Very stressful at times, we had a pregnancy, major accident and cancer treatment between us during the building period
- No life on the weekend for nearly 4 years
- Didn't have too many issues with trades, we were in the country and formed some excellent relationships 
- We spent at least $1000/month on building, had to be able to service this as well as the mortgage
- Our bank was OK but inexperienced with OBs, and we had to hold large equity (25%) the whole time, I've heard figures as highas 40% equity for other lenders 
GO IN WITH YOUR EYES OPEN! And remember the risks of what could go wrong. We are about to build our garage/studio, and we are not touching it, getting our original carpenter/builder back to do it from start-finish, not worth the headaches. 
Cheers
Justine

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## Art Martin

Thankyou for all your comments and suggestions above. Much appreciated. 
I certainly won't be venturing into this blindly, and will do all my research and due diligence well before I start considering building.  
The general consensus seems to be, it's not worth it if you are doing it for a cost saving.  
Since financial considerations are one of the main drivers(i.e I want the architechural style home for the project home price), I believe the only way that you can save money is pretty much do ALL the labour components yourself. Would people agree with this statement? 
I've also been told that labour constitutes 40-60% of the building costs(rough estimate again). So logically, the only way you could lose if you make mistakes and require trades to step in and fix the problem at "premium" rates. That is a very large cost base saving. Another consideration is as long as I could source materials at a reasonable price.....(the big unknown)...., I'd like to think I could save. Tradeconnect.com.au etc seem to provide reasonable priced materials, but I'd really like opinions on whether these are close to competitive with the trade pricing.  
I'm aware that this is a potential HUGE learning curve, but i'd like to think the means is worth the ends. I'd also like to point out that I'm not trying to save against a prolect home builder who charges 500-600 per square metre, but more against the Architectural building company who charges 1200-1500+ per square metre.  
Any further thoughts or comments?

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## dazzler

HI Art 
I have never, ever been to an owner builders house that has been completed fully.  Im sure it happens but I have just never seen it. :Shock:  
Have you thought of moving an old place and doing it up. 
Good luck whichever way you go.

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## pawnhead

> <post>

  Good post.
Some excellent advice in this thread. I'll just add that even if you coordinated the whole job as an owner builder, you still wouldn't be able to do it in under the square metre cost of a project home. Their scale means they get big discounts on material, and the mass production aspect saves on labour. Even on site, the contractors work on a set price which is usually lower than any quote you'd get. They do well because they can do it blindfolded. If you did all the carpentry and labouring yourself then you'd save, but how much time do you want to invest?
Re the trusses issue. It generally costs the same in material to frame a roof as the cost of the trusses. There's more timber in a conventional roof, and truss manufacturers get bulk discount on material. Of course trusses go up a lot quicker so the only reason you'd frame a roof conventionally is if it's a small job.</post>

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## journeyman Mick

> ......................I've also been told that labour constitutes 40-60% of the building costs(rough estimate again). So logically, the only way you could lose if you make mistakes and require trades to step in and fix the problem at "premium" rates. .........................

  Art,
other potential losses:
loss of income whilst you are building- 6 months? 12 months? 18 months? 24 months?
interest paid on loan whilst building, again how much longer will it take you to build than the pros?
Rent paid on accomodation whilst you are building
Cost of extra labour? When you say you want to build it yourself I assume you realise that unless you're superman you won't actually be able to do it all *by* yourself. Standing wall frames and trusses or pitching a roof, lifting beams and bearers are all activities that go more than twice as fast with a good offsider. You'll need to find one, pay them and pay their super and workcover.
You'll also need to take out insurance(s) and the longer the period, the more you'll pay.
Hire of site toilet
Hire of scaffolding, if it takes you twice as long to do something, then you'll need to pay for twice the hire.
Etc etc etc
Site lock up? where are you going to lock up tools and materials? Hire a shipping container or will you sell the family car and buy a ute to cart all the gear from home every day. Maybe get a tool trailer instead- more $$. 
Do you own all the necesary gear? Are you prepared to spend the money top get it and then sell it all when you're finished to defray some of the costs.  *Time = Money* 
Materials:
My local harware store (which is a pretty big concern and has managed to grow since Bunnings came to town) has a tiered pricing structure, retail and then trade 1 - 5. If as an owner builder you open an account you'll get trade 1. Most tradesmen get trade 2, increase your volume and you get trade 3 (I'm a 3) Most builders etc top out at 3. Then when you start building lots of stuff, maybe having 3 or more crews and doing lots of volume you move up to a 4 or 5. You will definitely pay more for your materials, how much more I can't say but on the cost of your house it would run into a few thousand at least.  
And then, like I said before there's all the things you can't put a $$ value on: Time away from family and friends, stress and lots of it. 
I've dome some owner builder jbs in the past and made some good friends out of some of the clients. There were some jobs where the clients did save money, but that was because they had me doing the job. Not trying to boast or anything, but I delivered quality work, taught them skills, channelled their labour into tasks they could manage and which would save on labour costs, sourced other tradesmen and project managed for them. I've got some current clients that I work for every time they get a bit of money together. They had some major horror stories to tell about the beginning of their project and were fortunate to find a mate of mine to take over from the first dipsticks that were wasting their money. 
Art I really think you're underestimating the time and skills required to build a house. For instance, lets say you go ahead, do you know how to do a set out? If you get this wrong it will cost you thousands in problems down the track. You can read about how to do it and probably get step by step  instructions, but seeing it done would be worth a lot more. Depending on the complexity of the building and the terrain it might take me and an offsider a few hours or a day and a half. By yourself, without experience and with only "book learning" it may take you up to a week to get it absolutely right. That's a week of income you'll miss out on. 
Mick

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## ian

> ...financial considerations are one of the main drivers (i.e I want the architechural style home for the project home price), I believe the only way that you can save money is pretty much do ALL the labour components yourself. Would people agree with this statement? 
> I'd also like to point out that I'm not trying to save against a prolect home builder who charges 500-600 per square metre, but more against the Architectural building company who charges 1200-1500+ per square metre.

  one reason project homes are so cheap is that the are built in standardised modules. Design your architechural home around these modules and any half intelligent project builder can build it for you at a price not much different to his own design. 
BIG questions 
are you looking for double brick or brick veneer?
standard height ceilings or extra height? 
these will influence the final price much more than slab on ground vs bearers on piers  
ian

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## Skew ChiDAMN!!

> I have never, ever been to an owner builders house that has been completed fully.  Im sure it happens but I have just never seen it.

  I've found that this is true, in a way.  I've seen plenty of owner-builders' homes that have been finished according to original spec (ready for sale, if that's on the cards) but these same owner-builders often also change their minds about this, that or the other thing and now have at least the basic idea of how to do something about it. 
So, there's still construction going on...  which is usually slower 'cos the house is "finished" (Well... they and the bank may think so, any 3rd-party looking on will probably disagree.   :Rolleyes:  ) and as they're just making "minor modifications" they're now taking their time.   
The trick is knowing when to stop starting new projects and to start finishing old ones!

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## ernknot

Why not go for a steel frame home? Something like a kit home, you could have a go at that.

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## Art Martin

Thankyou all again for your help. 
 Mick,  Appreciate your detailed response. Thankyou for the extra cost considerations, while I was aware of a few of them, I wasn’t aware of the site toilet, which will add to the cost. I’d also like to point out that I’m not one of those people who say, lets go gun ho and build a house, and I am not underestimating the HUGE task at hand. But you are 100% right that book skills and practical experience are worlds apart in the real world, and this is really the one thing that is holding me back. 
   <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o =""></o><!--[endif]--> The reality is, I'd like to think the formula for saving money owner building is
   <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o =""></o><!--[endif]--> 1. You have to do it ALL yourself(with help from friends in the trades etc). 2. You have to design your home around standard lengths, and heights of materials.  3. You need to source materials at close to trade rates. 
4. You need to do it in a reasonable timeframe.     <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o =""></o><!--[endif]--> I think that is agreed. 
   <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o =""></o><!--[endif]--> Therefore, once you start owner building with the intention of doing almost everything yourself, you have to commit to the whole process doing it yourself. This is an important point. Because as soon as you start to realise that you can’t do something yourself, you have to outsource tradies at premium rates= Cost blowouts!!. Now, I’m betting that the majority of cost blowouts in owner building relate to the belief that they could do it themselves, but found out they could not, and had to pay a sh*tload to the trades to firstly, to fix their mistake, and secondly, then do the job. 
   <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o =""></o><!--[endif]--> So you can see that before I even begin, I’m going to make a concerted effort to learn about the processes involved, and make sure that I am technically and realistically up to the challenge of doing the job. This is the big unknown right now.  
Ian,
While I'm not sure exactly what you mean by standardised modules.… does that relate to standard lengths for materials. I.e plasterboard comes in,say 4000mm x 1200mm. So make one wall exactly 4000 and make the ceiling height 2400(2x1200)? Or are you more talking along the lines of attempting to design my home in a similar way to a specific project home design(materials, room sizes etc). Again, excuse my ignorance, but I’m in a very prelim stage. Definately looking at brick veneer(or blueboard and render) whichever works out best value. As well as standard heights. 
    <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o =""></o><!--[endif]-->

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## pawnhead

> Ian,
> While I'm not sure exactly what you mean by standardised modules.… does that relate to standard lengths for materials. I.e plasterboard comes in,say 4000mm x 1200mm. So make one wall exactly 4000 and make the ceiling height 2400(2x1200)? Or are you more talking along the lines of attempting to design my home in a similar way to a specific project home design(materials, room sizes etc). Again, excuse my ignorance, but I’m in a very prelim stage. Definately looking at brick veneer(or blueboard and render) whichever works out best value. As well as standard heights. 
>     <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <o =""></o><!--[endif]-->

  I disagree with Ian there. Project home builders work to mass production scales on a set number of floor plans, and whilst they may offer slightly different floor plan options, and you could make minor changes without incurring too much extra cost, you won't get the same price if you give them your own plans to work off.
Re standard sizes, plasterboard is only a very minor cost consideration. Standard sizes go in increments of 600mm. ie 2400, 3000, 3600 etc. You can get in between sizes such as 2700 by cutting a 5400 in half. Personally I wouldn't have a ceiling at the minimum 2400 height. It doesn't cost that much more to make it 2700 high and two sheets of plasterboard at 1350mm will get to the ceiling. Better yet, I'd make it 3000 high and use one and a half sheets at 1200mm high.
No offense, but it looks like you really don't know that much about building, so the only reason you'd build yourself would be the satisfaction. You certainly won't save any money over a project home and you could end up spending a LOT more. 
edit :Redface:  Why don't you hone your skills by buying an old house and renovating/extending. You might make a profit that way and you could live there whilst you're working on it.

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## OBBob

Hi there, since everyone is putting in their two bobs worth ... I think that you shouldn't do it for cost reasons (too much can blow out) but I think the major consideration is that you really really want to do it (and that includes your partner).  
You will need a lot of drive to keep going, especially when things are heading the wrong way (selling incomplete would be a disaster).  
That said ... if you do really want to do it ... why not go for it?? But I tend to agree with the idea above of starting on a reno or extenson to start to get some ideas about pricing, tradies, councils etc.  
Good luck!

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## Studley 2436

I have heard of people building their own by doing it as the site manager. You get plans made up then get the quotes be on site to keep everyone moving, keep things up to spec and be able to give them immediate answers when things don't go together the way they were intended. 
In between times you can get your hands dirty being the offsider to various tradies as they work get the job done sooner and make a saving that way. 
That way you are replacing the most expensive guy on the job the one who does the organising and clips the ticket. Remember however there are council regulations approvals and so on, building standards to be satisfied so if you want the job you will need to know about these things. 
Studley

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## Art Martin

> No offense, but it looks like you really don't know that much about building, so the only reason you'd build yourself would be the satisfaction. You certainly won't save any money over a project home and you could end up spending a LOT more.

  Yep, 100% true. I have not worked or had involvement in the industry at all, so I don't have experience with building. Hence the learning curve will be very very steep, and I am acutely aware of that. I have absolutely no doubt that I could achieve it with enough time, effort and motivation, under budget, but from the experience of others here, it seems that it was not worth it for most. Which is fine by me. I'm more than happy to have a builder build my house....But it certainly won't stop me really having a really good look at the potential feasibility of owner building.  
Thanks for the advice though pawnhead.

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## Studley 2436

You know to save a few bucks you could always look at doing the house to lock up and then finishing it yourself. Doing the plasterboard painting other odds and sods. 
Doing a reno might be a better way to get started though all depending what you want. 
Studley

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## pawnhead

> I have absolutely no doubt that I could achieve it with enough time, effort and motivation, under budget

  Yes, you probably could if you put the time in to organise it and also do a lot of the work, but even then, whether it would be cheaper than a project home is doubtful. Their project managers typically handle between ten and thirty projects at a time, and they can have them up in three months or less. They spend very little time on site. Usually no more than an hour a week/fortnight to inspect progress and authorise payments. They organise all the trades from their office, and the tradesman work cheap and without supervision because they've done the same job a hundred times, so there's never usually any problems to sort out. And as I've said they get bulk discount on materials. When the job is ready, they press a button on their computer and the tiles/bricks/trusses/whatever gets delivered. No mucking around calculating quantities, getting quotes etc.
It's going to take you a lot more than three months full time, and you're going to pay more for your tradesman and materials.

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## ian

> I have not worked or had involvement in the industry at all, so I don't have experience with building. Hence the learning curve will be very very steep, and I am acutely aware of that. I have absolutely no doubt that I could achieve it with enough time, effort and motivation, under budget, but from the experience of others here, it seems that it was not worth it for most.

  Have you ever been or spent significant time with a project manager?  A good one can anticipate when things might go wrong and step in to make sure they don't.
one small example, you may be 10 weeks away from tiling the bathroom, but you need the floor and wall tiles NOW so that the tiler knows what product he is quoting on. 
as to my earlier comment re projec builderrs and standard modules.  I was so much refering to the sizes of plaster board sheets, but to floor plans and wall layouts.  In the last few project homes I've looked at it's been obvious that the rooms (or the floor plans) are "modules" that are put together a bit like lego blocks to make the house.  the builder can make 40 walls exactly the same, send them to 5 separate sites to make into 5 "different" houses.  
ian

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## journeyman Mick

Art,
I think you're underestimating how much is involved in building a house. 
Are you employed at the moment? Assuming that it will take you 18 months to build your house rather than 6 months for a builder (this is being optimistic for the OB and pessimistic for the builder) Do you think that the cost of having your house built by a pro will be greater than: 
Your income for 18 months + rental accomodation for 12 months + interest on loan for 12 months + insurances for 12 months + (cost of tools and equipment - 20% realised on sale after use) + site toilet rental and service for 18 months + casual labour hire + wrokcover for labourer + cost of mobile phone usage to run job from site + cost of extra home phone usage + purchase of fax machine + scaffolding hire + jobsite barrier hire/purchase + hire of specialised equipment etc etc etc. 
Like I said before *Time = Money*  If a pro and his offsider can stand a roof full of trusses in half a day using a crane then it might be about**: 
Crane hire: 4 hrs @ $150 p/h + 2 hrs travel = $900 (just a guess, few years since I hired one)
Labour: Tradesman 4 hrs @ $45 p/h + TA @ $30 p/h = $300 
Total = $1200 
Your cost: 
Crane Hire: Day 1: 8 hrs + 2 hrs travel, day 2: 2 Hrs + 2 hrs travel = $2100 
Labour TA 10 hrs @ $30 p/h = $300 
Total = $2400, without factoring in your loss of income.
If you take home $1000 per week then you can add a loss of $250, meaning that today's lesson, "standing trusses 101" has just cost you $1450.:eek:  
Of course these are just guesstimates as I've no idea of the size and span of your roof, site access, local crane hire costs and travel distances etc etc. However the only way your really going to learn how to stand a bunch of trusses is to do it. You may be able to read about it but you'll still be figuring out the nuts and bolts of how to do it while the meter on the crane is running. When you work in the industry you learn how to sequence a procedure by working under someone else, and you learn without really being aware of it. You will be learning under the gun. 
If you're dead set on building your own place I suggest you get a job as a labourer and work up to being an assistant to a builder. After two years or so you will have picked up a lot of knowledge and skills which will help you build your own place. Of course you'll have to factor in the reduction of wages for two years as part of the learning costs. 
Mick

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## silentC

Have just been through this process myself. I was lucky to have some relatives that were prepared to help either for free or very cheaply. I had several thousand bricks laid for nix. My Dad is a plumber. An uncle took on the role of foreman and lead chippy for peanuts. We hired another chippy at the going rate. My brother in law did all our welding and sheetmetal work. 
We paid full price for the sparky, the roofer, the plasterers and concretors. We had 20% off fixings, 10% off materials and 5% off tools at the local Mitre 10. I got 10% off bathroom fittings, tiles and paint through a mate who owns a tile shop. Another mate and his girlfriend painted for next to nothing. I owe favours left right and centre. 
We didn't hire a crane to stand the trusses, we used the winch on the Landcrusier when it was needed. Otherwise, having a 6'3" chippy on site was helpful. We hired a concrete pump for the slabs. Probably could have done without that.  
Stuff ups included a strip footing in the wrong place, not enough piers under the infill slab. We fixed those things and moved on. Cost time, not money. Rain held us up for a couple of weeks. I spent several hours one weekend pumping out footings and cleaning out the mud. The foreman fell off a ladder and broke his arm, putting him out of action for a couple of weeks. The chippy we hired didn't get on with the foreman or my Dad. He walked off site once but came back because he needed the money. 
The job took from September last year to end of June this year. I took some annual leave to help put the roof on. Otherwise, I spent every afternoon and every weekend at the site doing whatever needed to be done, from cleaning up rubbish to framing, hanging doors and installing architraves. It is still going on. I finished off a deck on Monday and I have heaps of work to go to finish the verandahs. The outside has to be painted, there are steps to put in. Various things inside like hanging shelves, installing wardrobes. 
What we built is a dual occupancy with 3 beds on one side and 4 beds on the other. Basically two houses - about 50 squares all up. We went absolutely basic: weatherboard, gyprock, aluminium windows, tiles/carpet (no timber floors), basic fittings. We went for Duragal under the verandahs and decks (fire regulations). Half the house and the garage is on infill slab, half on bearers and joists. We used LVL for those. The flooring is termite treated chipboard and the frame is termite treated pine. Roof is colourbond, cladding is Hardies Primeline. All flame resistant or flame proof. 
It included one full kitchen and three bathrooms. The other kitchen was an old one a mate who owns a kitchen joinery gave me. I'm planning to make one to replace it one day. 
At the end of the day, I THINK we saved money. We spent $650,000 all up. 200,000 for the block, 20,000 for the shed, the rest on the house, say 400,000 for two houses by the time you allow for agent and legal fees ect. on the sale of the old house etc. I bet none of the builders around here could have done it for less than 500. 
It's character building and a very good test of a marriage  :Wink:

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## Art Martin

Thankyou everyone. I appreciate all your responses and comments   

> Art,
> I think you're underestimating how much is involved in building a house. 
> Are you employed at the moment? Assuming that it will take you 18 months to build your house rather than 6 months for a builder (this is being optimistic for the OB and pessimistic for the builder) Do you think that the cost of having your house built by a pro will be greater than: 
> Your income for 18 months + rental accomodation for 12 months + interest on loan for 12 months + insurances for 12 months + (cost of tools and equipment - 20% realised on sale after use) + site toilet rental and service for 18 months + casual labour hire + wrokcover for labourer + cost of mobile phone usage to run job from site + cost of extra home phone usage + purchase of fax machine + scaffolding hire + jobsite barrier hire/purchase + hire of specialised equipment etc etc etc.

  Mick,  
Again, as always, I really appreciate your considered response. 
A lot of what you mention can be somewhat downgraded in cost in my circumstances.  
I'm not planning on leaving my job(lots of annual leave built up, and lots of weekends and late afternoons). I get bored when I sit around anyway. Who needs weekends lying on the beach anyway…ha ha. I don't really rate my labour as part of the equation, simply because the hours I will be spending on the job I would not have been working anyway. I suppose even if I did count them, I would look at the cost saving at the end and relate that to how many hours I worked to come up with a figure. Assuming I haven't overcapitalised, 50,000 saved(technically $50,000 equity) on the building job over 18 months equals the equivalent of 33,300 tax free, or approximately an extra 45000-50000 income per year.  
Interest on loan. This is irrelevant, and I'll explain why. I'll throw in a few dollar numbers as examples. I'll leave progress payments out for sake of ease of understanding.  
Option A: I have a home built by a builder and I move in after 6 months. I'm paying the full interest repayments after 6 months(lets say 500 per week). After 12 months, and 18 months…I'm still paying the same repayments as at 6 months(i.e 500). I pay rent up until 6 months(200 per week).
Option B. Assuming that costs are equal to Option A at the end of the building process(they'll hopefully be less…that’s why I am owner building), if it takes me 18 months to build, and I move in after 12(lockup), I'm paying less interest than option A at 6 months(say 1/3- $166), less interest in 12 months(2/3- $333), and the same after 18 months(500 per week)(completion). I will be paying rent for 12 months(200 per week). 
The point is, and it's a common misconception, is that I am NOT paying any more interest when I owner build if the costs are the same. At no point in the process am I paying more than I would be if I had a builder build. The ONLY difference is that I have to pay rent and interest for a longer period of time when I owner build(see my next point). 
Rental accom only needs to be paid to get to lockup(we can move in not long after that point(although it may be challenging for the mrs), so I would argue that should only take a few months longer to get to that stage that it would take a builder to get a house fully completed). Even if it take a fair bit longer, you can rent a liveable 1 bedder unit for 100 bucks a week where I live. So an extra year is only 5200.  
Insurance…agreed, extra cost. 
Tools and Equipment..agreed, extra cost 
site toilet rental and service for 18 months. ( still not sure if necessary as owner builder..will check) 
casual labour hire and workcover. Lots of friends in the trades and many cartons of beer(at the end of the day of course). There's only certain tasks that "require" multiple people. Some labour will be required, but I plan on stretching a few friendships and owing a lot of favours. 
mobile phone + home phone usage + fax. Honestly, those costs are negligible in the scale of things.  
scaffolding hire + jobsite barrier. I'm lucky enough personally to know a guy who owns a scaffolding company, so should not have any issues there. There'll be a cost, but I'm not going to be paying a lot for it. 
specialised equipment. agreed. 
I'm not arguing with you at all Mick, and your points are all valid, and I very much appreciate you opinions. But as you can see my circumstances really do negate a lot of these costs.  
So I have to ask myself. On a house that costs $400,000 to build, and 50% is labour. Do the above costs constitute even close to $200,000. And the short answer is from my preliminary investigation is, NO. 
This is of course just my 2 cents. I most probably won't go ahead, as the learning curve is probably too steep, but this is proving to be a good owner builder thread I think, and I'd like to see others adding their experience.

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## silentC

> site toilet rental and service for 18 months. ( still not sure if necessary as owner builder..will check)

  Technically, yes. It was one of the requirements in the approval from the council, nothing to do with being an owner builder. However, I built a shed first and put a toilet in it, then had the septic comissioned so we could use it, so realistically, we only needed to hire the loo for a few weeks. The shed was also the tea room and lock up for tools and materials.

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## Art Martin

Thanks for the info Silent C. My council is one of the more difficult ones I hear, so I would assume if any councils require it, this one would. 
I was also nice to hear about your owner builder project. Did you think it was worth it? The impression I get from you previous post was that it was.

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## silentC

> Did you think it was worth it?

  Most definately. Builders here usually quote between $10,000 and $14,000 per square. So we were looking at between $500,000 and $700,000 to build. We simply could not have done it any other way.  
I actually enjoyed the process (and still do because it hasn't finished yet). There were a few hitches, a few heated arguments, mostly between relations who like to stir each other up a bit. My wife was smart enough to stay well out of it, so there wasn't much tension between us.  
We stayed in our rented accomodation (was actually our house, which we sold and rented back from the new owners while we built) until the insides were 95% complete. I had to hang a few doors, fit towel rails etc. but otherwise the place was ready to live in when we moved in. It cost us a bit more in rent but was probably worth the reduction in stress. We have two young kids so that was a factor. 
I would do it again. I doubt I ever will though because we like this place and plan to stay for the long haul.

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## ausdesign

I reckon the Pambula prawns are the main reason keeping you there :Smilie:

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## silentC

We do have some nice prawns  :Wink:  
We moved to Pambula Beach when I was a kid. Thorpdale and Mirboo North before that, not far from you.

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## journeyman Mick

Art,
I've seen a lot of people run into trouble as owner builders, and I've also seen some success. SilentC has the advantage of having some trade skills and family members in the trade. My examp0le of standing trusses was probably extreme, but illustrates what might happen. Also, 99% of trusses up here are hardwood and heavy as hell (cyclone tie down considerations), whereas apparently lots (most) trusses down south are pine. Lighter, not so splintery and infinitely easier to handle. As part of your research I'd suggest you get yourself  the "Australian Owner Builder's Manual" by Allan Staines (reportedly the brother of the notorious Seaman Staines :eek:  :Biggrin:  ) Read it cover to cover until you uinderstand all the technical terms and the processes involved. It will give you some insight, not nearly as much as working in the trade, but it's a start. 
You'll find that there's lots of tasks that go more than twice as fast when done by two. I'd guess that two men working well together would get 3 times as much done than 1 by himself. I managed to build my shed solo, standing the walls ( some had to be lifted onto a 1M high block retaining wall) and even getting 2 x 10M long 150 C purlins 3 metres up onto the walls. Lifting the purlins up would have taken perhaps 1/4 of the time if I had someone to help me. It is possible, but it's bloody slow.  
Mick

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## silentC

> whereas apparently lots (most) trusses down south are pine

  Yep. You can pick up a big one by yourself. We had one guy up in the roof and two on the ground passing them up. Some of the tall ones were a bit tricky to stand up, the first one was a challenge.

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## Art Martin

> Art,
> I've seen a lot of people run into trouble as owner builders, and I've also seen some success. SilentC has the advantage of having some trade skills and family members in the trade. My examp0le of standing trusses was probably extreme, but illustrates what might happen. Also, 99% of trusses up here are hardwood and heavy as hell (cyclone tie down considerations), whereas apparently lots (most) trusses down south are pine. Lighter, not so splintery and infinitely easier to handle. As part of your research I'd suggest you get yourself the "Australian Owner Builder's Manual" by Allan Staines (reportedly the brother of the notorious Seaman Staines :eek:  ) Read it cover to cover until you uinderstand all the technical terms and the processes involved. It will give you some insight, not nearly as much as working in the trade, but it's a start. 
> Mick

  Yep, thats the first book i'm going to read. It seems be the "owner builders bible". I'm sure I'll be reading a LOT of books and asking a LOT of questions to a LOT of people before I even decide whether to go ahead.

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## Art Martin

> Yep. You can pick up a big one by yourself. We had one guy up in the roof and two on the ground passing them up. Some of the tall ones were a bit tricky to stand up, the first one was a challenge.

  It's nice to know that it can be done without a crane. Mick had me a bit worried that it could not be done without a crane. What about frames?  
SilentC, did you find that you had to use a lot of expensive equipment like cranes?

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## journeyman Mick

> Yep. You can pick up a big one by yourself. We had one guy up in the roof and two on the ground passing them up. Some of the tall ones were a bit tricky to stand up, the first one was a challenge.

  You'd be hard pressed to pick up an average truss with two blokes around here. On smaller jobs we'd reinforce one of the internal walls and get the truck/crane to pick the whole bundle up and place it across the walls. Then it would be a matter of a bloke on each end, pick up the truss and drag it into position walking along the top plate. Third bloke stands up the peak, sometimes off a trestle, sometimes using a length of stud tied/screwed/nailed to the top of the truss. Walking the plate is no longer allowed, but the use of the hook on frames and ally planks speed the process up anyway. It's bloody hard work, especially on a day when it's in the mid 30s and the humidity is in the 80s. Geez I'm glad I just build chipboard boxes now! :Biggrin:   
Mick

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## silentC

It's quite common for builders to use cranes for standing frames and trusses and lifting large beams. Work cover is one reason for it. We just found that our labour was cheap so many hands made light work. As for frames, that was just a two person job to carry the frame (pre-fab) to the appropriate spot and stand it up. For a two storey place, you would probably either make the frames in situ or get a crane to lift the lot up to the floor platform and stand them from there. 
The main heavy machinery we used was a traxcavator to clear the site and dig the cuts. We used a backhoe to dig footings and a bobcat to do site clean up and cut driveways, back fill trenches and sculpt landscape. You hire these plus their operator on an hourly rate between $60 to around $100 depending on which machine you need. 
The other machine we used was a concrete pump. This just makes life easy for the concretors. If you have good access for the truck to get to all sides of the job, you don't really need one. If you have lots of labourers and a matching number of wheelbarrows, it can be done that way. 
It really depends on your site. I know of a site here where everything had to be craned in, including the bobcat! It's quite common in places like Sydney too where access can be a major problem. We are on a 2.5 acre block so it wasn't an issue for us.

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## silentC

> hook on frames and ally planks

  Are you still allowed to use them? We were supposed to scaffold the whole job. Stuff that! We used the hooks to put the roof on though. Very character building hauling a 6m sheet of corro up and passing it to the guy on the roof when you're standing in the middle of an 8" wide plank 5 metres off the ground and a little gust of wind comes along!

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## journeyman Mick

> Are you still allowed to use them? We were supposed to scaffold the whole job. Stuff that! We used the hooks to put the roof on though. Very character building hauling a 6m sheet of corro up and passing it to the guy on the roof when you're standing in the middle of an 8" wide plank 5 metres off the ground and a little gust of wind comes along!

  To be honest I haven't really kept up to date with what's allowed and what isn't as I havent the time to go to the seminars or the need. I do know that about 4 years ago I went to one and they were pushing the fact that walking the top plate was now illegal and that the hook on frames more than paid for themselves in increased productivity. So 4 years ago they were legal, although I have a feeling that you might have to use two planks side by side and clamped together in the middle now.  
I've had lots of character building and have got the injuries to prove it. :Shock:  
Oh, and did I mention the fact that all I do now is make chipboard boxes :Biggrin:   (boring, repetitive work, but a waay easier way to make money. :Cool:  ) 
Mick

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## elphingirl

Hi Art 
I don't mean to give you a hard time - just force you to think through some scenarios. We wholeheartedly admit that wwe took a risk to try something different, and payed for the priviledge - although we're happy with the outcome - BUT we took steps to protect ourselves from major financial strife, and always had back-up plans. Things don't go according to plan - don't expect them to. 
If you take on owner-building, then you basically have a big unsecured loan - you carry all liability. If something happens and the bank forecloses on you, you will either have to sell on the market quickly (for peanuts), or borrow from someone else and get a builder in double quick. No builder I know would take on a half-ownerbuilt house without building a BIG buffer into their quote. 
Insurance alone (because of the owner-builder thing and the length of time) cost us over $4000, and is usually a condition of mortgage. This reflects the very high risk of theft/damage to a slow building project. There's pretty much only one underwriter in Aus, so little competition. Do not run a site without public liability insurance!!!  
Also consider Worcover issues. It's one thing if you hurt yourself, but if your best mate comes over for the day and hurts himself enought to go to hospital, it is my understanding that they will report this as a workplace accident (even though no money changes hands) and you may be investigated and fined by Workcover. Event hough it's not a professional project you are still bound by all the regulations of a building site. 
Also - last thing I promise - if your Council is tough, then there is no way they will let you move in at lock-up, not till CofO.  We built in the country, and stayed up on weekends only. Our building INspector turned a blind eye to this (primarily because we were making progress - albeit slow). We were pretty careful not to put him in a position where he had "have to notice" it - cleaned up majorly before he came in for inspections.  
Like your tradies, a good relationship with your Inspector - Council or private - is a really good resource for helping you solve problems.  
Good luck working it out.
Justine 
PS The Allan Staines book is only the beginning, I would spend a few hundred dollars talking to a helpful builder about your ideas and the realities of what you want to do. If you pay for advice you'll get better answers.

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## journeyman Mick

When I did my last general safety induction (Qld) it was pointed out that anyone who works on a site (as long as they don't wander in off the street without being asked) is a "worker" for the purposes of workercover. Ie, if you ask your mate to give you a hand and he falls off the ladder, then he's entitled to cover. If you haven't paid your premiums then you're faciong hefty fines on top of everything else. Note that this is in Qld, and may vary from state to state, however, even if not covered by workcover they'd be well within their rights to sue you for loss of income or a huge amount if they lose an eye or a hand.:eek:  This is really extreme, I know, but these things can happen, especially when you mix novices and power tools. It's a litigious day and age we live in and it would be extreme folly to engage in a project such as this without covering all bases.  
Summary:
If you've asked them to help and are paying them in beer, owed favours, timber, meals, brownie points whatever, they are a worker and entitled to workcover insurance. 
Mick

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## ian

> Summary:
> If you've asked them to help and are paying them in beer, owed favours, timber, meals, brownie points whatever, they are a worker and entitled to workcover insurance. 
> Mick

  Art, 
note well what Mick said AND realise that IF an owed favour makes your mate a worker, then you as his "employer" are obliged to provide a safe place of work, including ensuring safe methods of work are employed especially when it comes to lifting roof trusses and wall frames and fixing the roofing.    
The operative word is "ensure" which is usually interpreted as meaning if you're not using the "approved" tool/technique then you are personally liable.
In the event of a serious injury, you're looking at a potentially crippling fine  which is not covered by your insurance  and in the worse case scenario, a preventable workplace death as wella s the fine it's potentially "off to jail you go"   
treat this as food for thought  
ian

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## silentC

> if your Council is tough, then there is no way they will let you move in at lock-up, not till CofO.

  There is a legitimate process for moving in prior to a Certificate of Occupancy. We applied for, and were granted, an Interim Certificate. It will probably be years before we get the CofO, if we ever do.

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## Art Martin

Thanks Again. 
All good points that really need to be investigated in depth as part of my due diligence and research.

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## ian

> All good points that really need to be investigated in depth as part of my due diligence and research.

  Art 
forgive my presumption, but your turn of phrase makes me think that you are a lawyer 
are you? 
ian

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## OBBob

Or an engineer.

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## silentC

No, he's an IT manager!

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## OBBob

We could all be IT manager's the amount we are on this forum!!

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