# Forum Home Renovation Brickwork  brick piers??????

## bingoshelley

hi all im looking in the asa for the standards relating to brick piers but cant find them if anyone knows what page to look on that would be great.also has anyone done brick piers as this is our first owner builder stage i need all the help i can get.our soil is reactive clay we have to have 1mtr deep holes not sure how wide or if i can fill them with concrete then build piers from ground level upwards any help would be appreciated but be nice guys sometimes you can be brutal.!!!!!if you dont ask youll never learn!!!!!!

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## Brickie

> hi all im looking in the asa for the standards relating to brick piers but cant find them if anyone knows what page to look on that would be great.also has anyone done brick piers as this is our first owner builder stage i need all the help i can get.our soil is reactive clay we have to have 1mtr deep holes not sure how wide or if i can fill them with concrete then build piers from ground level upwards any help would be appreciated but be nice guys sometimes you can be brutal.!!!!!if you dont ask youll never learn!!!!!!

  Most brick piers are built from the ground level up.  :Doh:  
Not sure Ive seen anything Asa on brick piers, brickwork in general yes, but piers?  :Confused:

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## bitingmidge

Brickwork is exactly the wrong material to be using in reactive clay anyway! 
Why not use steel piers, they won't crack? 
P  :Wink:

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## Brickie

> Brickwork is exactly the wrong material to be using in reactive clay anyway!

  Why?
Most of the older houses in Melbourne are built on them.  :Confused:

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## echnidna

If the concrete comes to ground level (or a tad below) the bricks aren't in the reactive soil

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## Brickie

> If the concrete comes to ground level (or a tad below) the bricks aren't in the reactive soil

  
Arhh, now I see, you are asking if the bricks will disintegrate in the reactive soil. 
No they wont.
Modern bricks are burnt so well when fired that they are impervious to almost most things on the planet.

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## bingoshelley

> Brickwork is exactly the wrong material to be using in reactive clay anyway! 
> Why not use steel piers, they won't crack? 
> P

  the reason were using brick piers is its the cheapest option for us as budget is virtually non existant i got quoted 13k for a slab and just under that for steel doing it ourselves so we have to do brick as its a hell of alot cheaper.if we do them properly and take our time im sure they will last the test of time :Biggrin:

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## bingoshelley

> Arhh, now I see, you are asking if the bricks will disintegrate in the reactive soil. 
> No they wont.
> Modern bricks are burnt so well when fired that they are impervious to almost most things on the planet.

  thanks brikie i did see a picture of a brick pier in as1684 under concrete footings but no imformation like what width of hole needed what size metal tie rod (12y?) if the hoop iron goes under first or second row of bricks and with the ant cap how do you put it on if the tie rod is sticking up do you cut a hole in middle and slide over?wouldnt that effect the performance of the ant cap or do you plug the hole somehow.also where does the damp proofing go?????sorry so many questions ive looked everywhere but cant find simple answers. :Wink 1:

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## bingoshelley

> If the concrete comes to ground level (or a tad below) the bricks aren't in the reactive soil

  thx echidna thats what i thought but is there a particular strenght of concrete i need to order and how do i work out how much i need?????

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## autogenous

Whats the pier doing? I is it holding up anything (load bearing)? 
Do you have a picture of where it is to go? 
Because you are in clay some footings have to go down to non-reactive soil. However an engineer really needs to provide you with a footing detail for you particular location (your plot)  
I would say the footing will extend 150mm from the outside of the pier in any direction. 
eg: 350mm x 350mm pier would 650mm x 650mm footing  
The *footing depth* is the tricky one without seeing anything. 
An ideal pier would be 350mm x 350mm with a galv 10mm rod up the centre from the footing, core filled with 25/15/80 concrete.

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## bingoshelley

> Whats the pier doing? I is it holding up anything (load bearing)? 
> Do you have a picture of where it is to go? 
> Because you are in clay some footings have to go down to non-reactive soil. However an engineer really needs to provide you with a footing detail for you particular location (your plot)  
> I would say the footing will extend 150mm from the outside of the pier in any direction. 
> eg: 350mm x 350mm pier would 650mm x 650mm footing  
> The *footing depth* is the tricky one without seeing anything. 
> An ideal pier would be 350mm x 350mm with a galv 10mm rod up the centre from the footing, core filled with 25/15/80 concrete.

  hi autogenius the building inspecter told me to go down 1mtr deep we are building a house so they will be load bearing above ground will be 450mm so i figured i could dig the holes 1mtr fill with concrete well nearly full then build brick piers up to 450mm was planning on doing 2x2 bricks not even sure what bricks i can use for load bearing i have some solids also ones with 3 holes in them.as you can probably tell absolutely no experience here but due to finances have no choice but to try and do it ourselves.its all very well for people to say get a tradie so its done properly but getting a tradie for anything up here is a nightmare and an even bigger one when you get the bill.laying a 8.4 mtr x 15.0 mtr slab on flat as ground was as the concreter said a rough qoute of 13k maybe more so its out of our market.thx for your help though :Doh:

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## Brickie

Ive been out Wyche way a few times and have taken notice of the area and sort of taken notice of the ground, most of the advice you will get here is the advice they give to the city folk, they dont take into consideration the needs of country people. 
I know the Building code is supposed to encompass all, but it doesnt, Ive lived in the country long enough to see that there is a difference from country to city codes.

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## echnidna

I assume the building inspector wants a 600 x 600 footing 1 metre deep

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## echnidna

Al, its more like difference in interpretation of codes rather than different codes.
In some place the "building inspector" isn't qualified as such, he's the health inspector etc etc.

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## Brickie

> Al, its more like difference in interpretation of codes rather than different codes.
> In some place the "building inspector" isn't qualified as such, he's the health inspector etc etc.

  I know Bob, Ive lived out in the bush for over 20 years, so I know what its like.... :Tongue:

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## echnidna

Bend over and bow, saying very nicely , yes sir. 
I've bin there done that too, these City Slickers got no idea of the bush. 
Though you can bamboozle them sometimes if yer diplomatic

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## bingoshelley

> I assume the building inspector wants a 600 x 600 footing 1 metre deep

  he hasnt actually said the width as we didnt know at the time what material we were using .and you are very right about country inspecters he is 85 yrs old and so laid back its frightening seeing as im responsible for this house for a long time when we sell i dont want to cut too many corners.not safety ones anyway.what strenghth of concrete would i need to fill the holes?and how do i work out the amount to order thx :No:

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## echnidna

Tis so long since I've done a foundation I've forgotten the concrete grade needed. 
Volume = Quantity x length x width a depth 
Volume  =  1 hole   x .6       x  .6      x 1 metre = .36 cubic metres per 1 footing

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## bingoshelley

> Tis so long since I've done a foundation I've forgotten the concrete grade needed. 
> Volume = Quantity x length x width a depth 
> Volume = 1 hole x .6 x .6 x 1 metre = .36 cubic metres per 1 footing

  thx for that i just got quoted $182.00 +gst per cubic mtr of concrete delivered 30km one way.seemed a bit high to me but not sure???

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## ausdesign

If you're referring to brick 'pillars' then the footing size is worked out in relation to the load it's carrying. i.e. roof type, roof area, single storey etc. I would engage a structural engineer to do the calc's.
The soil type only relates to the founding depth not the size of the pad.

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## silentC

> $182.00 +gst per cubic mtr of concrete delivered 30km one way

  $200 per cube is about right. 
We did an O/B job too and half of it is on brick piers, reactive clay soil. 
The engineer's design included specs for brick pier footings. I'd suggest you hire an engineer - as it will make a lot of these things easier for you. You can design some things off span tables but I had engineering detail for strip footings, pier footings, retaining walls and bracing/tie-down for the frame. Cost me about $1800 but covered my backside and removed the guess work.

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## bingoshelley

> $200 per cube is about right. 
> We did an O/B job too and half of it is on brick piers, reactive clay soil. 
> The engineer's design included specs for brick pier footings. I'd suggest you hire an engineer - as it will make a lot of these things easier for you. You can design some things off span tables but I had engineering detail for strip footings, pier footings, retaining walls and bracing/tie-down for the frame. Cost me about $1800 but covered my backside and removed the guess work.

  Thx for that we will be using all brick piers  i was quoted 650 for the engineer to design footings but my architect has said she will speak to her engineer mate and put it in the plans for me all up she is only charging me 900 so im pretty lucky with that side of things i just wanted a heads up so i knew what to expect ive been told so many different things for the foundation and everyone has their own opinion foundations are a nightmare will be glad when their finished rest of house will be a breeze lol :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## silentC

Just keep in mind that as the O/B you are responsible for the building and if you sell it before the warranty period runs out, you have to cover it for the new owner (7 years in NSW). A lot of this engineering stuff is just to cover yourself in the event of something going wrong down the track. Make sure that anything structural is ultimately certified by someone qualified to do so. If you're working off span tables for floor framing or whatever, you're covered by the manufacturer - but if you're queried on your footings "the architect had a yak with the engineer" might not have any legal standing. It needs to be on paper and signed by someone with a license number or whatever. 
For example, we had to make a bit of a change to the footings from the original engineering detail. I paid him $200 to come out and inspect it and write me a letter saying the change was acceptable. That goes in the file with the original details and covers me in case something goes wrong. Stops him being able to say "that's not how I specified it".  
People don't think things will go wrong and it's all nice and rosy with architects etc saying "she'll be right" until you have to go back to them and say "you stuffed up". Just something to keep in mind. 
Unfortunately this often results in things being over-engineered to cover people's bums - but that's better than the opposite, which is what used to happen - under-engineering to save money. It's a bit like insurance, you might hate paying up front but you'll be glad you did if you ever have a problem.

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## bingoshelley

> Just keep in mind that as the O/B you are responsible for the building and if you sell it before the warranty period runs out, you have to cover it for the new owner (7 years in NSW). A lot of this engineering stuff is just to cover yourself in the event of something going wrong down the track. Make sure that anything structural is ultimately certified by someone qualified to do so. If you're working off span tables for floor framing or whatever, you're covered by the manufacturer - but if you're queried on your footings "the architect had a yak with the engineer" might not have any legal standing. It needs to be on paper and signed by someone with a license number or whatever. 
> For example, we had to make a bit of a change to the footings from the original engineering detail. I paid him $200 to come out and inspect it and write me a letter saying the change was acceptable. That goes in the file with the original details and covers me in case something goes wrong. Stops him being able to say "that's not how I specified it".  
> People don't think things will go wrong and it's all nice and rosy with architects etc saying "she'll be right" until you have to go back to them and say "you stuffed up". Just something to keep in mind. 
> Unfortunately this often results in things being over-engineered to cover people's bums - but that's better than the opposite, which is what used to happen - under-engineering to save money. It's a bit like insurance, you might hate paying up front but you'll be glad you did if you ever have a problem.

  thx for that i totally agree which is why were doing 1500 x1400 between piers using timber frame with al cladd and tin roof so way under the max allowable in the asa a little more money and time but the foundations need to be solid and 1800 spans can cause springy floors and problems later we plan on selling in 6mths after completion so we dont want problems coming up when a little more time and effort now at development stage could save heaps of future grief thx for your advice

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## bingoshelley

> $200 per cube is about right. 
> We did an O/B job too and half of it is on brick piers, reactive clay soil. 
> The engineer's design included specs for brick pier footings. I'd suggest you hire an engineer - as it will make a lot of these things easier for you. You can design some things off span tables but I had engineering detail for strip footings, pier footings, retaining walls and bracing/tie-down for the frame. Cost me about $1800 but covered my backside and removed the guess work.

  wouldnt it be cheaper to use bags of cement and do it ourselves with a mixer.i just worked out about 2500 for the concrete truck surely bags would be cheaper time isnt a problerm as we dont have enough to finish the house anyway so the longer it takes the more money we will have.

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## silentC

It's not really that much cheaper. A cubic metre of sand and gravel premix is about $80 and bags of cement about $6 each. You need 16 to make a cubic metre, so that's $96 + $80 = $176. Then you have to mix it yourself in small loads and it will take you forever. With the mini mix or whatever you use, you can tell them what MPA you need, it will turn up already mixed and you pour it in the holes. I reckon it's more than worth the $400 or so you will save.

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## Brickie

> It's not really that much cheaper. A cubic metre of sand and gravel premix is about $80 and bags of cement about $6 each. You need 16 to make a cubic metre, so that's $96 + $80 = $176. Then you have to mix it yourself in small loads and it will take you forever. With the mini mix or whatever you use, you can tell them what MPA you need, it will turn up already mixed and you pour it in the holes. I reckon it's more than worth the $400 or so you will save.

  Which is all fine if there is a concrete plant close by.  
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=wycheproof&ie=UTF8&ll=-35.949106,143.294678&spn=0.784725,1.2854&z=10&iwlo  c=addr&output=embed&s=AARTsJrLgUNtY1D0PvZxZSXKV1uv  MpeT7A"></iframe>
<small>View Larger Map</small>

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## silentC

See above:  			 				$182.00 +gst per cubic mtr of concrete delivered 30km one way 
Which is cheap. I have to pay about $220 and I can see the plant from my front door.

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## bingoshelley

ok just spoke to the building inspecter he dosnt know anything about brick piers he wasnt even sure what bricks we had to use i had to explain how to tie down the bearers to the piers i think were in trouble i was hoping he could direct us down the right path.we just want the cheapest way to do the foundations we dont care how long it takes and were willing to work like dogs to do it but its been very frustrating trying to figure it out.i know a few people have said youll only save 400-500 but if thats how much we save then we have to do it as that 400-500 will pay for something else.the budget on this house is ridiculosly tight in fact its non existent practically so any small saving we need.hard work never killed anyone did it??? my hubby would say yes he wants a slab but he also dosnt want to face reality.maybe we should sell the land and go buy another dump and renovate again!!!!!!!!! nah we have to build we just have to figure out what way to do the foundations arghhhhhhhh :Annoyed:  :Annoyed:  :Annoyed:  :Annoyed:

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## silentC

Personally I think you are setting yourself up for failure. 
What you are taking on is a huge task with major and long running consequences, and you're doing it, as far as I can tell, with no experience and no direction. You can't rely on the forum to tell you how to build a house. There are literally hundreds of decisions you're going to have to make during the course of building - you have to make them on the spot and you will have to live with your decisions. If you make the wrong choice, it can end up costing you more money at best or having the whole place condemned and you liable for it at the worst. 
Since you're intending to build a house and sell it straight away, my recommendation is that you approach a builder who is prepared to help you out under your owner builder permit and work on a 'consulting' basis. That way you can at least take advantage of his experience, even if you do most of the slog yourselves. 
I can't think of a kind way to put this but I think you are completely unprepared to build a house and I for one would not touch it with a ten foot pole when it comes up for sale. 
Maybe your best option would be to sell the land and walk away before you get yourself in too deep. 
Don't take this the wrong way, I think building a house is a great experience but I think you will get yourself into serious trouble if you proceed on your current trajectory.

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## silentC

One option for you might be a kit home.

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## bingoshelley

> One option for you might be a kit home.

  yeah looked into that but too much this time round.i just rang boral to see what bricks to use and they said any of them would be suitable as their all compressed now anyway so they can stand the load of a tin roof and cladding so im just going to go with it and suffer consequences later if any come up.my point is they use them on the load bearing walls in alot of places then use timber stumps to fill in middle so ill just use them for the whole job a bit overkill but itll be strong and looks like our cheapest option just a hell of alot more work lol

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## autogenous

Your building brick piers to take bearers under the house? I skimmed through and think I saw that. 
Why didn't you say piers to support floor. I though you were talking about freaking piers to take a roof or fence  :Smilie:  
Get yourself some 225mm or 300mm plastic pipe storm water? The cheapest you can find. 
Dig hole with post hole digger. Push in pipe. Mark all pipes from a datum (determined height) cut off with hand saw so they are all same height. fill with concrete. 
Stud frame is lighter than internal brick so shouldn't be too bad. 
Ask an engineer to write you a detail for that. 
Depending on the soil will depend how deep you go with the pipe piers to take the bearers. It will also determine the centres you will place them. 
You will need to put all thread down the centre of them to  bolt to the bearers

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## autogenous

Alternatively you could lay footing and put pipes then fill with concrete with rods up centre. 
In that case mix the concrete yourself for pipe piers. 
Place Alcor over piers as ant caps. 
Paint Bitcote or Pabcote over top of piers to reduce damp. 
White ants don't like bitumen either. 
Footings will be N25 concrete

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## ian

> snip...
> we plan on selling in 6mths after completion so we dont want problems coming up when a little more time and effort now at development stage could save heaps of future grief thx for your advice

  you probably don't want to hear this but you're plan casts you as the original builder.
you are on reactive clay
you remain liable for defects for some considerable time (read many years) after you sell the house 
If I bought it and discovered a defect I'd pursue for every cent you had or might get in the future to fix the defect. 
it sounds as though the only building experience you have is a redimentary at best  
think very very carefully about not getting proper and *properly documented* advice for all aspects of the proposed building. 
you could engender a defect by something as seemingly trivial as not properly vibrating the concrete in your piers  a significant risk if you mix the concrete yourself
AND if you do mix yourself how do you demonstrate compliance with the engineer's strength spec?   
ian

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## Tools

> Footings will be N25 concrete

  Auto, what do you mean by N25 ? 
Tools

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## autogenous

25 MPA concrete. 
If their intending on owner building then selling 6 months later its a pointless exercise. 
A you cant sell within a 6 year period I think. If you do you will need indemnity insurance to cover the period of say 7 years structural guarantee depending on the state. 
Building spec homes as an owner builder isn't a really viable thing when you have those concerns.

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## bingoshelley

> Your building brick piers to take bearers under the house? I skimmed through and think I saw that. 
> Why didn't you say piers to support floor. I though you were talking about freaking piers to take a roof or fence  
> Get yourself some 225mm or 300mm plastic pipe storm water? The cheapest you can find. 
> Dig hole with post hole digger. Push in pipe. Mark all pipes from a datum (determined height) cut off with hand saw so they are all same height. fill with concrete. 
> Stud frame is lighter than internal brick so shouldn't be too bad. 
> Ask an engineer to write you a detail for that. 
> Depending on the soil will depend how deep you go with the pipe piers to take the bearers. It will also determine the centres you will place them. 
> You will need to put all thread down the centre of them to bolt to the bearers

  hi autogenius they sound very cheap to do but are they safe they sound flimsy and im more comfortable using bricks as they seem pretty strong.

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## bingoshelley

> you probably don't want to hear this but you're plan casts you as the original builder.
> you are on reactive clay
> you remain liable for defects for some considerable time (read many years) after you sell the house 
> If I bought it and discovered a defect I'd pursue for every cent you had or might get in the future to fix the defect. 
> it sounds as though the only building experience you have is a redimentary at best  
> think very very carefully about not getting proper and *properly documented* advice for all aspects of the proposed building. 
> you could engender a defect by something as seemingly trivial as not properly vibrating the concrete in your piers  a significant risk if you mix the concrete yourself
> AND if you do mix yourself how do you demonstrate compliance with the engineer's strength spec?   
> ian

  we have no intention of building a house  that isnt safe or will require fixing in the next several years it will be built to last the 50 yrs houses are meant to last.there are a lot of houses built on brick piers in reactive clay soil its just that due to cost and time(mainly) they choose to put brick piers on the outer edges and not in the middle i assumed by doing brick piers everywhere then it would be a more stable house.the pier placings are at 1500 down one side and 1400 down the other do you think this would be insufficent??

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## bingoshelley

> 25 MPA concrete. 
> If their intending on owner building then selling 6 months later its a pointless exercise. 
> A you cant sell within a 6 year period I think. If you do you will need indemnity insurance to cover the period of say 7 years structural guarantee depending on the state. 
> Building spec homes as an owner builder isn't a really viable thing when you have those concerns.

  i dont think owner building to sell is pointless as you only have to live in it for 3mths to legally avoid paying capital gains tax but you cant sell within the first 6 mths as the insurance company will only cover us for 6 1/2 yrs and this insurance has been quoted at $900 by 3 different insurance agencies.as for building spec homes well we live 100+ kms from spec home builders the builders we do have up here have quoted us 250k to build a 15mtr x 8.4 mtr house with 1.8mtr front verandah and 2.4mtr back verandah.weve worked it out at 80k doing everything we can and are allowed to do by law.we have already been offered 195k for the house when its complete so a waste of time i think not.

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## ian

Shelly
I've searched for and read a few of your other posts 
this is how you come across to me you have a block of land located in an area with reactive clay soilyou want to value add by building a house on the block  _good on you_ you intend selling within the minimum period allowed by the tax office to avoid capital gains tax, and the insurance company, after the house is finished  _if you are living in the house during the final fitout does that period count towards the tax office's 3 months minimum occupation?_you are so under capitalised it's not funny, rememberthe $100 toilet?your statement "we looked at a kit home but it's too expensive"readymix is too expensive, so we'll mix it ourselvesyou are using this forum to make up for lack of knowledge / experience in building  _nothing at all wrong with doing so, seeking and sharing information is what brings us all together_ you are drawing your own plans or have a student working the drawing program for you  _the questions you are asking would be covered on plans prepared by any competent architect-engineer pairing practicing in the area where you want to build_.you are half expecting the local building inspector to provide you with free advice / guidance  _sorry, but any good building inspector will tell you when what you have done is wrong but is unlikely to tell you how to do it right the first time.  The best you are likely to get is "that bearer is too small", "there's not enough reinforcing" you will be very lucky to get "you should use a 150 x 100, F17 bearer between those piers".  It's all about liability._you've been offered some very good advice in respect to building the piers which you haven't as yet comprehended.you are goind for the cheapest foundation option witout having researched the market (into which you want to sell the property) to know if a prospective buyer prefers slab on ground construction.
My considered advice to you is 
 talk to a few local real estate agents to find out what sorts of houses sell quickly or easily 
 find a local architect-engineer pairing familiar with your area, soils and council and PAY them to produce a set of proper plans for you that are suitable for submission to council and contain the detail you need to meet BCA (and BASIX?) requirements. 
Then you will be in a position to get quotes for various aspects of the work or to commence construction yourselves. 
oh, and don't skimp on survey when it comes to locating the house on the block  you don't want to get to the end and find you have to demolish it because it's too close to, or worse over, a boundary.  
Lastly, I wont respond to   

> the pier placings are at 1500 down one side and 1400 down the other *do you think this would be insufficent??*

  
ian

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## Burnsy

Shelly's journey http://www.byohouse.com.au/forum4/viewtopic.php?t=626 
Shelly, I worry about where you get your $80,000 figure from when you don't have your construction method finalised.  Don't jump in to far before you get it sorted or you could be in for an expensive ride.

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## bingoshelley

> Shelly
> I've searched for and read a few of your other posts 
> this is how you come across to me you have a block of land located in an area with reactive clay soilyou want to value add by building a house on the block — _good on you_ you intend selling within the minimum period allowed by the tax office to avoid capital gains tax, and the insurance company, after the house is finished — _if you are living in the house during the final fitout does that period count towards the tax office's 3 months minimum occupation?_you are so under capitalised it's not funny, rememberthe $100 toilet?your statement "we looked at a kit home but it's too expensive"readymix is too expensive, so we'll mix it ourselvesyou are using this forum to make up for lack of knowledge / experience in building — _nothing at all wrong with doing so, seeking and sharing information is what brings us all together_ you are drawing your own plans or have a student working the drawing program for you — _the questions you are asking would be covered on plans prepared by any competent architect-engineer pairing practicing in the area where you want to build_.you are half expecting the local building inspector to provide you with free advice / guidance — _sorry, but any good building inspector will tell you when what you have done is wrong but is unlikely to tell you how to do it right the first time. The best you are likely to get is "that bearer is too small", "there's not enough reinforcing" you will be very lucky to get "you should use a 150 x 100, F17 bearer between those piers". It's all about liability._you've been offered some very good advice in respect to building the piers which you haven't as yet comprehended.you are goind for the cheapest foundation option witout having researched the market (into which you want to sell the property) to know if a prospective buyer prefers slab on ground construction.My considered advice to you is 
> • talk to a few local real estate agents to find out what sorts of houses sell quickly or easily 
> • find a local architect-engineer pairing familiar with your area, soils and council and PAY them to produce a set of proper plans for you that are suitable for submission to council and contain the detail you need to meet BCA (and BASIX?) requirements. 
> Then you will be in a position to get quotes for various aspects of the work or to commence construction yourselves. 
> oh, and don't skimp on survey when it comes to locating the house on the block — you don't want to get to the end and find you have to demolish it because it's too close to, or worse over, a boundary.  
> Lastly, I wont respond to   
> ian

  ok firstly ive got an architect drawing the plans now.the $100 dunny is off the books.a kit home is out of our range.the local building inspecter has given me his home phone number to ring him if i need help(country here not city so alot more helpful).i have listened to all advice i have been given over various questions in the forum,some i have taken on board some i have not but may in future.prospective buyers may want the slab and glazed windows and whatever else but we dont have the money to do that so if it devalues the house then so be it im not a magician and unfortunately i dont have a money tree.ive already been offered 195k when the house is built as new houses dont get built up here in this town anyway ( 7 in the last 10 yrs all owner occupied) that are put on market to sell.and the people interested know exactly what were building out of.and lastly i was just using this forum to get ideas about what options are open to us i should probably say in my postings ''just enquiring not gospel yet" and yes we have never built before but i know alot of people who have never even picked up a hammer before and have built their own homes so im not afraid to ask a million and one questions and have people thinking im an idiot but eventually we will get it built and im thankfull to everyone who tries to help please dont think im not listening because i wouldnt waste my time on here if i wasnt interested in what advice has been given.such as the toilet and architect.thankyou for your opinion :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## bingoshelley

> Shelly's journey http://www.byohouse.com.au/forum4/viewtopic.php?t=626 
> Shelly, I worry about where you get your $80,000 figure from when you don't have your construction method finalised. Don't jump in to far before you get it sorted or you could be in for an expensive ride.

  hey burnsy the only thing about construction that hasnt been finalised is the foundations but everything else has been pretty straight forward we know were using timber frame made by truss company 3k for walls 3k for roof trusses.we have a guy coming to do the aluminium cladding  5k the plumbers doing the roof 5k windows are getting made up by a window company 3k as we made mistakes with them.plasterer is doing the plaster 2 1/2 k with our help and we are doing the interior 15k.its just these stupid foundations that were stuck on you cant get quotes when you dont even know for sure what your even going to use.the 80k is pretty spot on for the size house were building but budgets have a way of blowing out so we will deal with that when the time comes.plus plumber and electrician and all the bits and pieces.but im sure were going to make heaps of mistakes along the way which is why im trying to get as much info as i can before we get into it to try to minimise those mistakes.thanks for your concern burnsy much appreciated :Wink 1:

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## ausdesign

The pad depth is as per the soil report.
The pad min. thickness & width is as per as1684 to suit the pier spacings etc
The width of the pad is increased to suit the pier size ( only so the bricks have full bearing )
This is not an uncommon construction method in Tas.
The tie down is possibly the weak point so take the rod down into the concrete pad - you can't rely on the mortar mix for uplift strength.
The termite shielding needs to overhang the pier by 25mm.

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## thebuildingsurv

Give up shelley while your still ahead. I have seen many projects like yours start but never finish.

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## bingoshelley

> The pad depth is as per the soil report.
> The pad min. thickness & width is as per as1684 to suit the pier spacings etc
> The width of the pad is increased to suit the pier size ( only so the bricks have full bearing )
> This is not an uncommon construction method in Tas.
> The tie down is possibly the weak point so take the rod down into the concrete pad - you can't rely on the mortar mix for uplift strength.
> The termite shielding needs to overhang the pier by 25mm.

  thx ausdesign i have been told we have to go 1mtr deep and 150 more then the bricks for the pad footing.good point about the tie down rod ill make sure we do that.thx for your help :Biggrin:

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## bingoshelley

> Give up shelley while your still ahead. I have seen many projects like yours start but never finish.

  im sure most builders would love owner builders to crash n burn as they would have more work but giving up isnt an option for us but thx for your concern :Biggrin:

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## myla

hello, 
and one can look to seek.com.au to continually see the advertisements from the likes of metricon, porter davis, burbank, ravida and engelhart for handyman/maintenance positions 
I wonder what these maintenance crews do? 
go for it bingo, building is not difficult 
thankyou 
myla

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## ian

Shelly 
these are my sums 
someone has suggested that they would buy the new house PLUS the land for $195k 
what did the land cost you?
what are your holding costs?  i.e. the interest you have paid, and are yet to pay, on what you paid for the land — even if the land was free or bought with cash you should still factor in the interest you have forgone by not sellinmg the land and depositing the sale price in the bank (current bank interest rates are >6%) 
cost of the land = $50k (it's a guess)
your estimate of 80k x 1.5 for contingencies = $120k (I like being conservative early on, that way you mainly only get pleasant surprises) 
Total  $170k
plus say $10k for holding costs 
say you sell for $195k, then your profit is $15k (after tax)  
between you, you and your partner will probably invest 2,000+ hours in the project (the reno across the road is currently being painted, building work started last June) 
your earnings equate to less than $7.50/hr
appart from the experience will it be worth it?  
if you're answering yes, good luck   
ian

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## bingoshelley

> hello, 
> and one can look to seek.com.au to continually see the advertisements from the likes of metricon, porter davis, burbank, ravida and engelhart for handyman/maintenance positions 
> I wonder what these maintenance crews do? 
> go for it bingo, building is not difficult 
> thankyou 
> myla

  thank you myla i also dont think its difficult just technical cheers shelley :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## bingoshelley

> Shelly 
> these are my sums 
> someone has suggested that they would buy the new house PLUS the land for $195k 
> what did the land cost you?
> what are your holding costs? i.e. the interest you have paid, and are yet to pay, on what you paid for the land  even if the land was free or bought with cash you should still factor in the interest you have forgone by not sellinmg the land and depositing the sale price in the bank (current bank interest rates are >6%) 
> cost of the land = $50k (it's a guess)
> your estimate of 80k x 1.5 for contingencies = $120k (I like being conservative early on, that way you mainly only get pleasant surprises) 
> Total $170k
> plus say $10k for holding costs 
> ...

  ok land cost 7.5k and all up with the land ive estimated 80k we dont have to borrow anything we will be paying cash for the lot.so even if it took 2yrs to build bottom dollar is we walk away with 200k so from renting in melb 3 yrs ago with not a cent to our name and going nowhere to 5yrs later with 200k and owing nothing to anyone i think thats a pretty good job personally.there is no way on this earth that we could of saved 200k by still renting in melb we couldnt save 10k as for our time well it beats sitting on our butts watching tv.absolutely no work up here unless your a local.in 3 1/2 years hubbys had 3mths solid work and heaps of other jobs collecting turkey eggs rounding up chooks working in the aboitoir shovelling wheat ect..we even opened a $2 shop trying to get an income but no support from the town people so we closed the doors after 8mths.so we have been trying very hard to be self efficient but very hard in a town of 750 people.building the house is our last option to be self sufficent,moving back to melb isnt an option as rents are ridiculous there now.so unless we wanted to be a burden on the system for the rest of our lives (which we dont)then building is the option for us to set us up cheers shelley :No:

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## journeyman Mick

> ...............go for it bingo, building is not difficult.................

  While building is not rocket science and a good tradesman makes any job look easy it *is* in fact difficult if you don't have any training or experience. Watching home reno shows on telly does not count as experience. Asking questions here may help, but it won't prepare you for the reality of actually building a house. If it's so easy then why do I see so many unfinished or badly finished/built/designed/executed owner built projects around? 
Mick

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## autogenous

Best thing to do is ask other people their experience in spec building. If their truthful enough they'll tell you that the only money they made was the land value increasing. 
They would have been better off just selling the land. 
Banks cant sell half finished houses. 
Right now theres a bunch of people watching their negative capital build.
Do some research into the owner builder liability and you may find you cant sell for a year depending on where you are. You will have to get indemnity insurance if you sell. 
Building may not be rocket science but the law and legislation that goes with it is. 
You'll find many trades just get builders to build their house. 
It may sound negative but do the research. Ask around. 
You may well pull it off. Do an owners builders course "at least"

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## bingoshelley

ok guys thx for all the advise ive got the answer to my questions and much appreciate them cheers shelley

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## thebuildingsurv

I would suggest if you are trying to say money use concrete stumps. The concrete alone for the method above will cost a couple of grand.

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## myla

hello, 
the issue is many people have unrealistic time frame and cost of building a home, which affects people if renting or holding costs 
many owner-builders chose "difficult" building products, the most important thing is to get the shell up quick smart, 
many project homes now adays take alot of time to build as well, even with builders running the show, 
even during the 7yr warranty period for an owner-buiulder or builder built home the building-sureveyor is now becoming an integral part of the claim/compensation process if it arises, 
some reading:  http://www.feg.com.au/papers/Update%20604.html 
thankyou 
myla

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## autogenous

Personally I think there should be a obligated attendance federal based inspector visit at 3 stages of construction during renovation and new homes. 
1. Footings/concrete pour
2. Roof stage prior to plastering
3. Lock up 
In the UK inspectors check each stage of the process advising trades and builders what they require. A built in form of quality control. 
A check box form/report on a standard range of requirements.    
This would prevent a lot of the current issues that go to court ending in tears. 
This would prevent a lot of the dodgyness that goes on now.  
If a Trade or Builder feels the need for an inspection they call out the inspector. 
Its too late when a builder shuts down a company and opens up another or a builder uses another builders ticket of a bloke whos on his death bed with offshore accounts

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## bingoshelley

> While building is not rocket science and a good tradesman makes any job look easy it *is* in fact difficult if you don't have any training or experience. Watching home reno shows on telly does not count as experience. Asking questions here may help, but it won't prepare you for the reality of actually building a house. If it's so easy then why do I see so many unfinished or badly finished/built/designed/executed owner built projects around? 
> Mick

  hi mick i dont expect it to be dead easy just alot of hard work its the technical side thats hard to understand at times.as for owner builders stuffing up if you watch aca youll know that their are heaps of builders out there shafting people by cutting safety corners and not finishing the jobs and alot more then owner builders.if it takes 2-3yrs to finish then its better then renting in the end i have no intention of risking the lives of others to save a few bucks but if i can save a few bucks without compromising safety then we will do it ourselves. :Biggrin:

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## bingoshelley

> Personally I think there should be a obligated attendance federal based inspector visit at 3 stages of construction during renovation and new homes. 
> 1. Footings/concrete pour
> 2. Roof stage prior to plastering
> 3. Lock up 
> In the UK inspectors check each stage of the process advising trades and builders what they require. A built in form of quality control. 
> A check box form/report on a standard range of requirements.  
> This would prevent a lot of the current issues that go to court ending in tears. 
> This would prevent a lot of the dodgyness that goes on now.  
> If a Trade or Builder feels the need for an inspection they call out the inspector. 
> Its too late when a builder shuts down a company and opens up another or a builder uses another builders ticket of a bloke whos on his death bed with offshore accounts

  we have that here to inspecters have to come check holes check the frame and then final check for occupancy certificate.if any problems are found at any stage then they have to be fixed before any more building work is underway

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## silentC

> as for owner builders stuffing up if you watch aca youll know that their are heaps of builders out there shafting people by cutting safety corners and not finishing the jobs and alot more then owner builders.

  I don't think anyone is suggesting an owner builder would be deliberately negligent. It would be through ignorance of building practices that things will go wrong.

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## thebuildingsurv

This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

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## myla

hello, 
and so the owner-builder gets told to rectify, I just hope the same processes are followed thru for builders,  
the court case I highlighted was also at a time whereby many thought the "builder" had total responsibility for anything, and as people took things to court they questioned the surveyor 
a similar case went through with burbank homes whereby the surveyor also was held responsible 
thankyou 
myla

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## Brickie

> This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

    :Roflmao:  See, Mick said it is easy..... :Biggrin:   :Rotfl:

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## Dirty Doogie

Hi Bingo, If it were me, with the benefit of many OB and renos behind me, I would go for the slab onground option.   
I've checked out your other posts and looked at your pics on other sites. 
My reasoning for suggesting this is that deep footing stumps and associatted subfloor construction uses up about 3 times the labor of putting down a slab (on level ground). If you can lock in a slab price about what you stated then with only 25% of the budget you get the foundations, plumbing sanitaries, concrete floor, wall frames, and maybe roof trusses as well. that sounds pretty good to me! 
A timber type floor is going to take about 2 months to get done if just one or two people are working on it - it will also require some pretty precise setting out. 
So many times new builders , renovators underestimate the most vital resource needed for building work - Their own *ENERGY*. At the start most of the energy comes from enthusiasm and eagerness for the project. But as things start to drag and the muscles get sore, then the emotions kick in and energy levels drop off. Minor injuries, things like minor back problems, hammerers wrist, repetitive strains and minor ailments like a simple cold all begin compounding to make the work physically tiring. 
And so I suggest the slab option will advance the project dramatically and preserve energy levels further into the project. You'll get out of the ground quickly and into the air and shapes and spaces will happen fast.

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## journeyman Mick

> This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

  
Don't you mean *sub-standard* floor?  :Shock:  
Mick

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## bingoshelley

> Hi Bingo, If it were me, with the benefit of many OB and renos behind me, I would go for the slab onground option.  
> I've checked out your other posts and looked at your pics on other sites. 
> My reasoning for suggesting this is that deep footing stumps and associatted subfloor construction uses up about 3 times the labor of putting down a slab (on level ground). If you can lock in a slab price about what you stated then with only 25% of the budget you get the foundations, plumbing sanitaries, concrete floor, wall frames, and maybe roof trusses as well. that sounds pretty good to me! 
> A timber type floor is going to take about 2 months to get done if just one or two people are working on it - it will also require some pretty precise setting out. 
> So many times new builders , renovators underestimate the most vital resource needed for building work - Their own *ENERGY*. At the start most of the energy comes from enthusiasm and eagerness for the project. But as things start to drag and the muscles get sore, then the emotions kick in and energy levels drop off. Minor injuries, things like minor back problems, hammerers wrist, repetitive strains and minor ailments like a simple cold all begin compounding to make the work physically tiring. 
> And so I suggest the slab option will advance the project dramatically and preserve energy levels further into the project. You'll get out of the ground quickly and into the air and shapes and spaces will happen fast.

  yeah thx doogie trust me if we had the money that is definately the option i would go for the next house will definately be done this way and by more tradies.unfortunately we dont so we have to do it the hard way i know everyone has said it will save time not to mention the physical aspects but time is a luxury we do have money isnt.so many fights with hubby coming up lol thx for your help

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## bingoshelley

> This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

  thats beyond bad but not all owner builders are like that most go above and beyond the australian standards ive seen the same results with builders doing the job.i think its up to the individuals standards on wether they want to do a perfect job and as i said im not interested in jepordising peoples lives by cutting corners :Biggrin:

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## Dirty Doogie

."so many fights with hubby coming up" 
 - another energy draining activity. 
I just ran a few figures through my estimating tables. You are trying to build about 127 sq mtr of house. 
materials only, 1 bathroom 1 kitchen, alum siding,steel roof, 30% alum window, gyprock lining. 
Slab on level ground construction @ 550 mt2 = $69850 
Stumps and treated timber subfloor with chip floor @ 740 mt2 = $93980 
Every calculation I make indicates a timber subfloor with stumps is significantly more expensive on materials only basis.

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## silentC

> most go above and beyond the australian standards

  That assumes they know what they are  :Wink:

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## autogenous

> I don't think anyone is suggesting an owner builder would be deliberately negligent. It would be through ignorance of building practices that things will go wrong.

  Its amazing what people will do when they start running short of money. 
So many jobs end up unfinished when there is not a solid strict budget + an unforseen margin. 
Guessing is not an option. Know every little cost before you start.  
Tracking a budget daily is absolutely compulsory.

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## ausdesign

Bingo, all the input should be taken as constructive. Most of the members replying have vast experiences in both new & reno work.
If you feel you can handle the project, I would press on. 
The main thing to remember is at the end of the day the buck stops with you so make sure you research each stage & get qualified advise.
I take it from your posts that you've had the plans drawn professionally & that the 'stump' issue was an item that you were not sure of.
I'd be concerned that your designer did not point you in the direction of using timber or concrete stumps, but I assume that the idea of brick piers was yours to try & cut down on costs. I am equally concerned that you mention, I think it was 150mm of concrete past the pier, for the footing. The concrete needs only to provide full support under the bricks - & meet the required pad dimension for the load. [ less concrete]
You mention, if I read it properly, that the designer could get design comp's for the piers which also worries me as this is not necessary unless I'm interpreting the project incorrectly.
At the end of the day if you feel you can manage, then give it a go.
I for one, & i'm sure many others, will give assistance as you progress - as long as your seen to have done your homework & don't ask questions that show you haven't - & then you'll be crucified.

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## Dirty Doogie

From my design manual -  stumps placed into reactive clay or expansive silts must be round or ovoid and have a smooth non porous surface. The footing must also be round in plan view. 
Rough surfaced materials like in situ ground formed concrete, rough sawn timber,brick or block are not recommended as they provide a friction grip for expanding earth. site soil only backfilled to half the stump depth and the remainer filled with 20mm gravel. the footing also sits on a 300mm depth of 5mm compacted gravel.

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## ausdesign

I'd like to read that manual.
Can you give details.

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## bingoshelley

:No:   

> Bingo, all the input should be taken as constructive. Most of the members replying have vast experiences in both new & reno work.
> If you feel you can handle the project, I would press on. 
> The main thing to remember is at the end of the day the buck stops with you so make sure you research each stage & get qualified advise.
> I take it from your posts that you've had the plans drawn professionally & that the 'stump' issue was an item that you were not sure of.
> I'd be concerned that your designer did not point you in the direction of using timber or concrete stumps, but I assume that the idea of brick piers was yours to try & cut down on costs. I am equally concerned that you mention, I think it was 150mm of concrete past the pier, for the footing. The concrete needs only to provide full support under the bricks - & meet the required pad dimension for the load. [ less concrete]
> You mention, if I read it properly, that the designer could get design comp's for the piers which also worries me as this is not necessary unless I'm interpreting the project incorrectly.
> At the end of the day if you feel you can manage, then give it a go.
> I for one, & i'm sure many others, will give assistance as you progress - as long as your seen to have done your homework & don't ask questions that show you haven't - & then you'll be crucified.

  thx ausdesign i havnt got plans back yet or been to a engineer yet i was just trying to see what options i could use within our budget ive looked in the australian standards before posting on here and searched the net too but couldnt find what i wanted.granted some questions may seem stupid to most of you guys but im sure everybody on here at one time or another had no experience in their fields until they either went to school done it themselves or asked a million and one silly questions.what i mean is the answer to my origanal question was relatively easy eg:hey bingo its not that easy without seeing plans or having a soil test if you get an engineer to do your footing details your question would be answered by him good luck:ive noticed on several posts in here not just mine that if you dont have experience or some sort of knowledge then a few dont give you a break maybe those few should remember that they too didnt know it all when they started.sometimes i may not have explained myself properly and for that i apologize.but id rather spend hours searching this site to find my answers before i post one and cop the negativity

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## Dirty Doogie

> I'd like to read that manual.
> Can you give details.

  Hi peter, the manual is called "Building Design parameters in Residential and Low Rise Commercial Structures" Volumes 1 - 3 Published by Queensland University press. It is a 900 page compilation by Engineers and architects and Australian standards Association.  
I believe the tome costs nearly $1K. I sort of inheritted it from a professional library and the book must be a few years old now. It has an analysis of the Threbo disaster and structural failures - so when was that? 
Half of volume 3 is devoted to critical failure states where despite professional certification something horrible went wrong - a very funny section IMO.

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## Woodencha

Don't be discouraged Bingo - I was very young, pretty broke and FEMALE, but I owner built and lived to tell the tale! (Even sold the house 8 years later for a nice profit!) 
That said, it really *IS* a lot harder than you think. These blokes made plenty of mistakes along the way, AND went to school AND asked a million and one stupid questions. They are just trying to toughen you up and help out where they can. They know what you are about to go through so listen to their advice and take heed. I know this because I live with one of them, and I know he's only trying to help!  
For what it's worth, try trusting the pros a bit and get work done by them when you can. What it will save you in stress and time is well worth it plus you can learn a lot from watching how they do things! I could only afford to get the footings drilled by a bobcatter and had to get the roof installed 'cause in Qld you can't do it yourself, but it just about saved my sanity.  
Also don't get too stressed about stuff until it's a problem. Don't make decisions about the stumps till you've got the plans 'cause they should tell you what you need to know.  
One step at a time. Remember - a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step!

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## ian

[/quote]Bingo shelly, 
so how is the Owner build going?  
ian

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