# Forum Home Renovation The Garden Shed  hHow much can a C Purlin span in a shed frame?

## TEEJAY

When someone designs a shed and it is installed (well nearly installed) you don't expect this.

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## silentC

Guess we should give Wide Span Sheds a wide berth, huh? 
Wonder how it came down - was it a spontaneous collapse or were they up there working on it at the time?

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## Pat

I think some engineer has made a boo boo :Biggrin:   
I hope it was not your shed.

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## Yonnee

Holy Crap!!!!! 
I hope no-one was under it. 
Lucky it went the way it did and not down on the power pole!

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## TEEJAY

> I think some engineer has made a boo boo  
> I hope it was not your shed.

  
Not my shed - just an email circulating. Defines the shed as 40m span and in Queensland by a CPeng and being built for a training facility. 
I think a re-look at calcs will quickly find the problem. 
Don't know if the shed builder is liable when he is just building what the engineer designed and detailed??  
The caption with the pics says the engineer is blaming the builder and the builder is blaming the engineer - but I don't really believe this will last too long as an argument as calcs will show if the design is in error or not. 
Of course a structure cannot be overstressed during construction and the builder would be at fault if the design stacked up - but if a C purlin shed can span 40m ???  :Shock:   Maybe with balloons  :Tongue:   
We get some pretty good emails on how not to build things  :Biggrin:

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## TEEJAY

> Holy Crap!!!!! 
> I hope no-one was under it. 
> Lucky it went the way it did and not down on the power pole!

  The only casualty was said to be the scissor-lift  :Smilie:

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## Big Shed

I think the problem here is that the openings of the C channel faced the front of the shed :Sneaktongue:

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## pawnhead

> I think the problem here is that the openings of the C channel faced the front of the shed

   :Biggrin:  
Maybe it pays to be fussy about such matters.  :Wink:

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## ian

> Guess we should give Wide Span Sheds a wide berth, huh? 
> Wonder how it came down - was it a spontaneous collapse or were they up there working on it at the time?

  looking at the photos, my guess is that  the builder placed a longitudional joins in places he shouldn't havethe builder didn't connect the top and bottom flanges when making his longitudional joins look at this photo leading to the flanges being overstressed or unevenly stressed the builder used the wrong bolts or the wrong bolt sopacing or didn't tighten the bolts properly leading to insufficient stiffness in the web which in turn led to asymetrical loads in the frames.the builder used the wrong size sectionthe engineer stuffed up
ian

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## bitingmidge

Teejay, help me here. 
In the good old days (when I was still an architect  :Biggrin:  ), every engineer I ever dealt with always emphasised that the uplift forces were the ones to worry about (Qld).    
Columns?  Well they are just there to hold the roof DOWN (and provide a bit of bracing perhaps.) 
Could it be the problem here is that the columns have been overdesigned, and held the structure down too far??? 
Cheers, 
P (just ask me what colour to paint it! )  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## Krazee

Don't think the 'uplift forces' got this one!

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## joe greiner

Could be something for everybody here. Pic 5 looks like there was some lateral drift, perhaps enabled by inadequate bracing, even though both directions seem to be addressed in pic 1. The frames' vertical resistance works only when it's in the opposite direction to gravity; when it isn't, buckling is too possible. Most likely both the designer and the builder were sailing too close to the edge. 
Lateral/torsional buckling can be even more catastrophic with prestressed concrete bridge beams, usually during transport. The first one I saw was just as it was leaving the plant, turning onto the road, perhaps too fast; crossed the sloping driveway cut on a bias, and away she went - flipped the bogie upside down and scared the bejeezus out of the bogie steersman; no injuries thank goodness. One of the more bizarre we investigated occurred on a highway curve. The tractor had traversed the curve, beyond the superelevation transition, but the bogie was still on the banked portion ('twas a very long beam). The uplift from prestressing pointed off vertical, and gravity obviously didn't. Along with some torsional velocity, Ka-BOOM! 
Joe

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## billbeee

I suppose it could have been worse, the whole thing finished and fitted out with the builder paid and long gone.
That's a hell of a long span for that type of construction.
I've not seen anything like since Christmas 74. 
cheers
Bill

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## TEEJAY

> Teejay, help me here. 
> In the good old days (when I was still an architect  ), every engineer I ever dealt with always emphasised that the uplift forces were the ones to worry about (Qld).  
> Columns? Well they are just there to hold the roof DOWN (and provide a bit of bracing perhaps.) 
> Could it be the problem here is that the columns have been overdesigned, and held the structure down too far??? 
> Cheers, 
> P (just ask me what colour to paint it! )

  
Pete, 
Uplift can be significant with the right wind load case - building having a cross wind and all the doors closed etc. For this to happen we need doors and cladding. 
I have been in plenty of large buildings as we design and install large warehouse floors and I have never seen such flimsy steel sections over such a large span. Purlin sections as rafters over 40m span??  :Shock:   I am not interested in doing the numbers but it just looks way wrong. 
Just for a laugh let me show you a stairway in Bulgaria  :Biggrin:   
On a serious note though designers can kill - designs should be checked!

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## bitingmidge

> On a serious note though designers can kill - designs should be checked!

  Still on the same serious note, it's not just Bulgaria either.  For all I hate (yes hate) about our beaurocracracy and over regulation, _mostly_ that sort of thing gets discovered early! 
Been involved with a few hangars lately, and I love the way those guys make their portals using sheet piling for the webs!  :Biggrin:    
cheers, 
P

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## thebuildingsurv

I would suggest there was not enough temporary braces during construction but I could be wrong

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## journeyman Mick

Teejay,
got any details on the stairs? Doesn't look like there would be any room at all in there for any reinforcing. How did they think that was going to work? :Doh:   :No:   
Mick

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## TEEJAY

> Teejay,
> got any details on the stairs? Doesn't look like there would be any room at all in there for any reinforcing. How did they think that was going to work?   
> Mick

  The funny thing about the stairs Mick is they zigzag up and down with the formwork - reinforcement in a spanning slab needs to be straight and in tension - you cannot develop tension in zigzag reinforcement it will just pop out the side of the slab. Like trying to pull something around a corner. 
The formwork was fibreglass it appeared - great formwork.

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## silentC

I don't think it's fibreglass is it? Looks like that compressed pine stuff they used to make.

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## joe greiner

Looks like oriented strand board for the inverted steps, plywood for the main support. Whatever they saved in concrete was eaten up by extra formwork, extra bending of reo, and extra labour. And would've looked bad if it hadn't collapsed anyway. 
Joe

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## journeyman Mick

What flaming idiot decided that was how to build a set of stairs in concrete? :No:   Blind freddie could see that it was never going to work. A hell of a lot of work to bend the steel and build the formwork as well. Hope someone got a serious asrekicking over it. 
Mick

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## WideSpanSheds

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alibri; 	mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; 	mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} </style> <![endif]-->  In response to the above mentioned case of the 40 meter span building, which was bought for the Riding for the Disabled – *Wide Span Sheds have been misrepresented by competitors Australia wide who are taking advantage of this opportunity to tarnish our reputation, and effectively increase their own sales*. It is worthy to note, that on this occasion we supplied the building only in kit form, and were not involved in the erection of the building.  
  The facts from the case are as follows, and they were founded by two independent engineers and a construction expert who provided a comprehensive review for the engineering of the building, as well as the manner in which it was erected.  *The Cause* 
  The builder that was contracted by our client was found to have misrepresented his experience in large cold form structure erection. Furthermore, he failed to accept further construction advice from Wide Span Sheds’ internal consultant, and he showed complete and utter disregard for substantial bracing requirements during construction (one z section screwed to a power pole with roof screws). It was also found that a junior labourer was left unsupervised; during that time he unattached the primary bracing causing the structure to collapse.  *The Result*
  28 tonnes of scrap metal.   *Action*
  Despite the fact that it was found that Wide Span Sheds were not at fault, the directors paid for the new steel components to be supplied at our costs, only to be reimbursed if there was a successful insurance claim. Wide Span Sheds then offered an experienced builder to oversee the erection of the new components (at our own costs). 
  The staff members pictured is in fact our internal construction expert, and one of the owners and founder of Wide Span Sheds.  
  The site with the new Wide Span Sheds’ building has now been completed without any further problems, and despite a number of severe storms, the structure is in excellent condition. 
  Furthermore, this client wrote a letter of thanks to Wide Span Sheds for all of our help during this time, and has bought sheds for their locations in Leongatha and Alice Springs. 
  Wide Span Sheds offer world-class buildings that are engineered to exceed the BCA requirements. However, as with any other building kit, the structure must be erected correctly and in accordance with the manual.  
  Feel free to see for yourself the strength of our structures and view our virtual tour.

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