# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Tradies versus DIYers - the debate continues...

## chrisp

I've noticed that some other threads are heating up over the use, and the workmanship, of trades and that the general contention is made that the home owner could have done a better job themselves. 
I normally weigh in on the electrical questions and arguments as that is my area of expertise, but I have noticed (and participated in  :Smilie:  ) similar discussions/arguments/wars over the merits of DIY vs Trade also happens in other areas (such as plumbing, roofing, framing, concreting, brick laying). 
What are some of the general arguments I have read:  *"Get a Plumber/Electrician/Concreter/etc. is you want the job done right/well"*
On the face of it, using a suitably trainer person should increase the chances of having a good job done.  However, I'd almost be sure that we all have firsthand accounts of supposedly qualified people getting it wrong (or perhaps, not-quite-right).  *"If you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself"*
I suppose holds true, as long as the person doing the work DIY is capable.  I have seem many cases of handyman work that is truly awful.  I have seen "renovations" that, in my opinion, devalue the property.  On the other hand, I have also seem some DIY work that is truly wonderful.  In some cases, I'd say that the job is excessively neat.  i.e. it would have been expensive if a tradie did the same job at commercial rates.  *"If you need to ask, you shouldn't be doing it"*
This one gets up mu nose a bit.  It is a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg - how does one find out if one doesn't ask?  *"Your plumber/electrician/etc. will know"*
Maybe they will, but how will I be sure unless I can inform myself too?  *My view:*
Personally, I have seem good and bad jobs done by tradies and DIYers.  To me, it seems that using a tradie will improve your chances of getting a good job done, but it certainly won't guarantee it. 
I'm a firm believer in 'knowledge'.  I think a better job happens when the tradie and the DIYer have the required knowledge - or at least enough knowledge to understand what they are getting in to before they start.  Even in restricted trades (such as electrical and plumbing) this also holds true.  While the DIYer shouldn't legally be doing restricted work, it is better that they understand what should be done (and why) so that they can check that they are getting a good job done.  Even when getting someone to do work I'm very familiar in, I will often play dumb (which is easy) and ask very basic questions to see what the tradie recommends.  I find it is a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff.  
On more a pragmatic view, some non-licenced people will tackle restricted work.  It is better for all that these people have the knowledge do a good job.  In any case, while doing the work may be illegal, have the knowledge certainly isn't.  I certainly don't believe that certain knowledge should be held back as a DIYer shouldn't need to know it. 
I also question the need to restrict some trades.  In many places overseas DIY plumbing and electrical work is allowed.  There doesn't seem to be any major problems with DIY work.  Do I dislike tradies?  Absolutely not!  Do I like our restrictive licencing system? Absolutely not!   :Smilie:

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## chrisp

As an aside, it is worth noting that certain tradies who participate on the forum, and who are open and honest with the general forum population, are held in high esteem. 
At the risk of inadvertently omitting certain individuals, people like WonderPlumb and Rod Dyson (and many others) certainly are well regarded and I'd certainly be happy to have them do work at my place.

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## commodorenut

Did you buy a commercial popcorn machine by any chance?  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   
There's always interesting points made in these debates, but I often have to give up reading them, as I can't be bothered sifting through the posts where someone has to ram their opinion onto others.

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## PeteV

personally, i'm happy to answer any questions, be it complicated or simple. the bit that gives me the @@@@@, is when some so called diy'ers, begrudge the income of tradesmen, or classify a whole trade based on their limited experience. 
with regards to tradesmens income, it takes a brave man/woman to put your assets on the line to open a small business and learn your trade so thoroughly that you can amongst other potential risks, quote off drawings and know how much work is involved in every single project that you tender, knowing that the slightest omission can cost you thousands... 
with regards to bad eggs in a trade, well, every industry has them... whether it be teachers, police, lawyers,politicians or even the church, there isn't a professional group around that doesn't have a few bad apples. 
from my experience, which is 20 odd years in construction, i have found that if you're prepared to listen to the answer, most tradesman are more than happy to help you out with practical, and technical information. 
hope this helps!

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## Marc

> *My view:*
> Personally, I have seem good and bad jobs done by tradies and DIYers.   To me, it seems that using a tradie will improve your chances of getting  a good job done, but it certainly won't guarantee it.
>  I'm a firm believer in 'knowledge'.  I think a better job happens when  the tradie and the DIYer have the required knowledge - or at least  enough knowledge to understand what they are getting in to before they  start.

  When the above is stating the obvious, clearly anyone doing a job, any job needs to know how and why it is done, the debate is not likely to end because the parameters are wrong. 
Bad jobs from DIY are likely to be because the owner builder does not have the skills, knowledge or inclination to do a good job.
Bad jobs from tradesman are likely to be because of dishonesty, negligence or both. 
To say "I could have done a better job myself" does not address the root of the cause. It is unfortunate but at least in Sydney, a large majority of tradesman are not incompetent but highly dishonest and some times borderline with criminal negligence.
And yes some may be just incompetent or lazy.
The above negative points are highlighted if working for an owner builder and masked when working for a builder for obvious reasons.
So a good tradesman that may work OK on a building site, turns nasty whilst working for the old lady next door.
 And yes you can identify them by their ethnic background.
How many are left?
Not many, not ins Sydney anyway. 
PS 
I use to own a few properties in Mt Isa.
Got quoted by a "builder" $6,500 to put up a metal dual carport from Mitre Ten ( supplied by me and this was 7 years ago) and it was going to be done by the apprentice.

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## ringtail

I watched a ep of Grand Designs last night where the fella was self building from scratch. He had bugger all money so did everything himself. Got himself a book and "taught" himself electrics, same with plumbing - seemed to work out fine but had me wondering with the "what if" factor. Then after a while I came to the conclusion of well, why not. If he is competant enough to design and build his own house who says he is not competant enough to do his own wiring and plumbing. I dont know what the voltage is in the UK :Biggrin:

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## Master Splinter

In the UK, it wasn't until 2005 (the introduction of Part P of the building regs) that the DIY-electrician actually had to notify the local building control that they had done electrical work at all.  Even under Part P, you only need to notify if the work is deemed 'other than simple' - such as new fitouts in a wet area or something more than just adding extra fittings to an existing circuit.  (it seems that the DIY work we can't do here is regarded as 'simple' in the UK...) 
UK voltage is the same sort of nominal 230 volts that we have here (in other words, 240 volts until line transformers wear out and get replaced).

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## Marc

I bought a property 3 years ago that suffered for 10 years the onsets of a DIYselfer. I got as good as to recognize this fellows fingerprints in the many dodgy repairs. 
However those are simply feeble attempts at doing something in complete ignorance and are nothing compared to the criminal negligence from the builder who made basic errors and covered them up over and over, from the steel post welded to plates that are only half on the footings, steel posts undersized and without rust protection, undersized bearers (by half size), sewer pipes without ventilation and I can go on and on.  
This and many more are not a product of ignorance but bastardy since the money saved in materials is negligible compared to the damage created and the cost of replacing, repairing, underpinning etc. 
PS
A friend at work told me they want to erect a garden shed (3x2 meters) and want to have a concrete slab under it (75mm).
They had 2 quotes so far. A 'friendly' builder next door wants $5,000. Another quoted $3,000...both want to contract a pump to pump 1/2 a cubic meter 20 meters from the kerb.
This is what I mean. Rotten dishonesty is the problem not ignorance or lack of skills.

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## Black Cat

A good tradie would be my choice every time if I had the money - but sometimes I don't and if the job is within my scope of skills I will therefore do it myself. DIYers go wrong because they think it looks simple when in fact it is a complex layering of actions that are required to get things done in the right order to gain a good result. 
My difficulty is when you come to a bad tradie (and they do indeed exist I have discovered). It is better to know how the job should be done so that you can twig early on if they doing the wrong thing (whether deliberately or through incompetence). Also, being a female of the species, I find a lot of tradies tend to think they can get away with stuff with me that they would never contemplate trying it on with a bloke.  
Asking questions is the best way to learn, and the only stupid question is the one that has not been asked (or has been answered three times already). 
DIY is definitely not for beginners - basic tool skills are essential or you can hurt yourself (or your project) badly. So a quick course in woodworking, or in metal working is essential as preparation for taking stuff on IMO. 
A good tradie is worth his (or her) weight in gold, and should be cherished. Mine get home-baked food and cuppas on tap when they are working on the site. And privacy if they prefer it to having me hanging around being their apprentice. Though I much prefer one who will work with me (once they have figured out I am not useless, of course) as that way we can redesign on the hop and discuss why things will or won't work. 
Horses for courses methinks.

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## intertd6

> PS
> A friend at work told me they want to erect a garden shed (3x2 meters) and want to have a concrete slab under it (75mm).
> They had 2 quotes so far. A 'friendly' builder next door wants $5,000. Another quoted $3,000...both want to contract a pump to pump 1/2 a cubic meter 20 meters from the kerb.
> This is what I mean. Rotten dishonesty is the problem not ignorance or lack of skills.

  This last bit of rubbish really shows DIY ignorance, a professional contractor complying with OH&S regulations should use mechanical means of materials handling where ever possible & it costs, they really will waste a day on it for a couple of guys  plus the site visit initially. Small jobs like that are better done by a handyman with a strong back & ignorance of OH&S. 
regards inter

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## PeteV

> This last bit of rubbish really shows DIY ignorance, a professional contractor complying with OH&S regulations should use mechanical means of materials handling where ever possible & it costs, they really will waste a day on it for a couple of guys  plus the site visit initially. Small jobs like that are better done by a handyman with a strong back & ignorance of OH&S. 
> regards inter

  I'm not sure OH&S has banned using a wheel barrow yet... Our labourers push wheel barrows every day! I would believe that $5000 was extortion for a 6m2 concrete pad at 75mm thick...
hope this helps!

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## johnc

> I'm not sure OH&S has banned using a wheel barrow yet... Our labourers push wheel barrows every day! I would believe that $5000 was extortion for a 6m2 concrete pad at 75mm thick...
> hope this helps!

  I would also agree, for such a small area and amount of concrete it would not be worthwhile setting up the pump in the first place unless you couldn't physically get a barrow in. $5000 also seems a bit steep for something in which by the description probably needs little in the way of material costs or formwork. It is worth bearing in mind though sometimes a high price is set because the tradie doesn't want the job in the first place.

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## Marc

> This last bit of rubbish really shows DIY ignorance, a professional contractor complying with OH&S regulations should use mechanical means of materials handling where ever possible & it costs, they really will waste a day on it for a couple of guys  plus the site visit initially. Small jobs like that are better done by a handyman with a strong back & ignorance of OH&S. 
> regards inter

  Give me a brake will you? since when is a trade a profession?
It takes 7 wheelbarrow to wheel 1/2 meter of concrete, may be 8 or 9 if you want to go it easy. I can get my wife to do that. That is a job that is well paid at $600 labor cost plus materials. Any other consideration is garbage that illustrates the delusions of grandeur of so called professionals who do not hesitate in ripping off their customers at any given occasion. Any tradie that gives such "quote" of $5000 to a builder will have to factor in the time the local doctor will have to work to extract the builder's boot out of his @rs3

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## Marc

The tradesman complaints about the owner doing a job himself are grouse squawk and lamentations of lost opportunities and clearly have no real interest nor pride in a job well done.
With probably a few honorable exceptions, in my experience of contracting tradies in the last 40 years, they do a good job only if they are SCARED of you and not because they want to do a good job. I have recalled "builders" and "tradesman" through fair trading  too many times to remember them all, and every time the job was rectified only because of the threat to their license.
Stay around and be friendly, talk about the job at hand or worst about yourself and I can guarantee you that the quality of the job will slip in direct proportion. Sad bad true. 
The fact that Australia is the land of the DIY is not an endorsement of  our ingenuity but of the poor quality of the tradesman job and their  excessive charges.
I think that in stead of DIY versus trade we should start a thread about worst tradesman job ever. 
That would probably be the only topic that can rival the emission trading thread 
Any real tradesman proud of his work needs not to worry about DIYselfers stuffing up, in fact probably be happy about them since they will ultimately create more work. Disdain and contempt for someone for having a go at what he is not trained to do is pathetic and deserves no sympathy

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## plum

Go and take a chill pill Marc.

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## intertd6

> I'm not sure OH&S has banned using a wheel barrow yet... Our labourers push wheel barrows every day! I would believe that $5000 was extortion for a 6m2 concrete pad at 75mm thick...
> hope this helps!

  Of course not, though some people are trying to price them out of existance, especially in well to do suburbs. You really need to brush up on your manual handling understanding of the OH&S regulations though, because when an employee brings a civil case against you for an injury sustained because someone was too tight to use suitable mechanical materials handling equipment where cost was the only consideration, your sunk.
regards inter

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## PeteV

> Of course not, though some people are trying to price them out of existance, especially in well to do suburbs. You really need to brush up on your manual handling understanding of the OH&S regulations though, because when an employee brings a civil case against you for an injury sustained because someone was too tight to use suitable mechanical materials handling equipment where cost was the only consideration, your sunk.
> regards inter

  thank you for your advice, but i already have a thorough understanding of safe work practices and manual handling... that said and done, there is no way possible to allow for forklifts to do the work of a wheelbarrow in a domestic building situation. work safe have been right through my safe work method statements (SWMS) and have had no problem with  them.
hope this helps! 
@ marc. you are a tool!

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## johnc

In my experience if your instructions, which means plans/drawings and specs, are clear and you engage the correct trade for the job it is very rare to have a real problem. If a person has continual trouble with the trades they get in then they should probably consider what they are doing as that indicates a problem with whoever does the engaging. Continually taking people to places like VCAT most likely indicates someone has issues of their own to address in the way they deal with others and the problems that they are creating. It is also worth bearing in mind that the cheapest quote seldom means the cheapest job, you often get what you pay for.

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## r3nov8or

Marc, your views polarise me, but I do agree that trades are not professions (the latter require university qualifications, and several other criteria)  
But such delusions of grandeur may help explain why many tradies think they can charge like neurosurgeons.

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## Moondog55

Not sure I agree with that statement. 
I have a "Trade" but I consider myself a "Professional" as I 'profess' or indicate in words and writing my ability to do the job and be PAID for it, it is payment that determines whether or not a person is considered "Professional" and his qualifications that determine what his/her profession is ( and to a large degree how much his trade or skill is worth I guess) 
Our last plumber was a  very poor tradesman and not at all professional in his attitude or competence but still charged more than my cancer surgeon, the surgeon was also less arrogant and much more polite int the bargain LOL

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## stevoh741

There are a great deal of good and honest tradies out there it is just unfortunate that the medium sized minority give all of us a bad name. I've had plumbers do work for me that was absolute rubbish however they didn't get paid until the work was rectified. 
p.s MARC, your comments are unfounded and I do my best work on every job as ultimately it is my work with my name on it that keeps the phone ringing. As for being scared of a client? Well maybe if they came out in their best drag outfit with a bit of nipple showing and offering me a glass of absinth...yeah, I'd probably run, however being scared of the everyday person as far as my work was concerned, well, I wouldnt be in this line of work if that was the case. Sorry sir but your previous post makes you look like a dikhead.

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## ringtail

A client that tries to intimidate or bully a tradie is just asking for a world of crap IMO. There is no need to be a knob about it. Being aggressive towards anyone simply puts everyone into defense mode, communication breaks down and before you know the finger pointing starts. I can tell pretty much right away if I want to work for a client. Its no skin off my nose to walk away. I rather walk that put up with crap from a standover owner.

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## r3nov8or

Moondog, I did say "trades are not professions", and did not say tradies cannot behave professionally, and very many do. You also sort of confirmed my point. 
A little reading into what it means to be considered a Professional, and this one in particular made me smile _- 
"A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities  while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed  person, career, enterprise, business, company, or  partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher  duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a  duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to  pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required  to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests"_

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## ringtail

Mmm, Ive never had my dentist, doctor or surgeon cancel their golf day for me  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## r3nov8or

> Mmm, Ive never had my dentist, doctor or surgeon cancel their golf day for me

   You're still alive so their prognosis must have been correct  :Rolleyes:   i.e. "He'll live"

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## SilentButDeadly

I must be the perfect client since I've never experienced a dodgy tradesperson.  Sure I've come across a couple I wouldn't hire again but not because they did a poor job or didn't follow specifications - mostly because my perceptions of value weren't met.  Mind you...my experience of tradies is largely limited to plumbers and sparkies of late.  Though there have been floor sanders, Bobcat operators, concreters, roofers and the odd skilled service people as required. 
If you as the client go into a contract with a tradie with the idea that you are about to engage in war then war is what you'll inevitably get...

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## johnc

> I must be the perfect client since I've never experienced a dodgy tradesperson. Sure I've come across a couple I wouldn't hire again but not because they did a poor job or didn't follow specifications - mostly because my perceptions of value weren't met. Mind you...my experience of tradies is largely limited to plumbers and sparkies of late. Though there have been floor sanders, Bobcat operators, concreters, roofers and the odd skilled service people as required. 
> If you as the client go into a contract with a tradie with the idea that you are about to engage in war then war is what you'll inevitably get...

  I reckon if you get a new customer/client who moves quickly to complain about past people they have dealt with then refuse the work, you will simply end up with the same outcome. In those cases it is the customer who has failed to identify the real problem in the first place, themselves. The vast majority of people are honest and will do a reasonable job, I would say the same as Silent, I have never used a trade and had a genuinely bad outcome, it may not have been exactly what I was expecting, but has been never been an issue that couldn't either be resolved or to small to worry about, in some cases it has been better than expected.  
I think there are a lot of people out there though that simply think up a large figure and quadruple it not expecting to get the job if they have heard someone is difficult to deal with.

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## Marc

Perhaps it is good to have a look at the original, or one of the, comment in the first post.  

```
 I'm a firm believer in 'knowledge'.  I think a better job happens when  the tradie and the DIYer have the required knowledge - or at least  enough knowledge to understand what they are getting in to before they  start. 
  
```

 The alleged debate between the DIY and the tradesman can not be over who knows best how to do a job.
That point is of course a moot point. If someone puts up gyprock and set joints for a living, clearly he would have the better know how all along. A home owner who disputes how a job must be done without experience is a fool. 
The debate then is not over "knowledge" but standards and price.
And there is were the owner or the builder can judge the results. And if someone that sets joints for 30 years makes a mess of your job, for whatever reason, you are certainly entitled to say you would have done a better job, because you as the owner would have put all your best effort and 10 times more time and get hopefully a better outcome.
Apples and oranges. 
I say that most complaints and horror stories come not from lack of knowledge but from dishonesty and an imbalance between offer and demand. Big demand, poor standards. Only need to look at the jobs that are subsidized like schools and insulation and solar for an example. 
I have a property close to the central coast and work is scarce over there. I can get very good tradesman at reasonable price and no problems.
The same job in Sydney is a completely different proposition. 
Last one.
I have done a lot of work on a property on the Hawksbury and at first engaged local tradesman thinking it was best.
Big mistake. I used electricians plumbers, excavators, carpenters, bricklayers, roofers, concreters, flooring guys, sander, gyprocker, painters and a draftsman.
The only decent one out of the lot were the draftsman, the gyprock guy and the flooring guys. The rest were hopeless and I had to get rid of them and call someone from out of town to fix the mistakes and finish the job.
A relative who is a sparky came on the weekend to finish the worst mess ever from the "local" electrician who told me he was doing me a favor because he is royalty, he works inspecting solar installations. Even a local handyman was no good. I got him to dig a trench next to a  retaining wall that needed a drain, and on the day he was due to come he  told me that the guys (?) were making fun of him in the pub, because that job had to be  done with an excavator and he was going to do it with mattock and  shovel. 
So location makes a difference, don't ask me why. 
As for horror stories from jobs done by DIY, and I suppose a tradesman would have heaps to tell, they are usually of little consequence unless they are illegal I suppose, and if anything would contribute to create work for the tradesman that wants to do it.

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## Marc

> I must be the perfect client since I've never experienced a dodgy tradesperson.  Sure I've come across a couple I wouldn't hire again but not because they did a poor job or didn't follow specifications - mostly because my perceptions of value weren't met.  Mind you...my experience of tradies is largely limited to plumbers and sparkies of late

  I think you are just lucky or live in an area with not much demand for work.
How is this for a story: Agent calls to unblock a sewer pipe on a Sunday. (note I said Agent that does not care how much they charge)
Plumber comes with high pressure spinning thingy sends it down the drain and the gadget gets stuck.
Plumber comes in with excavator, digs up half the backyard claiming needs to replace pipe.
Pipe gets replaced all the way to the main. The main is 2 meters deep. The plumber replaces the pipe but does not set the pipe on the bottom of the trench but half way up in the air and backfills the lot, charges $3500 and goes home.
One month later the soil sets and the pipe is bent like a banana and brakes. The job had to be redone...not once but twice.
This is Sydney trade for you.

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## Marc

> I'm not sure OH&S has banned using a wheel barrow yet... Our labourers push wheel barrows every day! I would believe that $5000 was extortion for a 6m2 concrete pad at 75mm thick...
> hope this helps!

  Hi Pete, what do you think is a fair price for the garden shed concrete pad?

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## Gaza

Marc is the guy that makes up 100 reasons not to pay

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## Bloss

> I think you are just lucky or live in an area with not much demand for work.
> How is this for a story: Agent calls to unblock a sewer pipe on a Sunday. (note I said Agent that does not care how much they charge)
> Plumber comes with high pressure spinning thingy sends it down the drain and the gadget gets stuck.
> Plumber comes in with excavator, digs up half the backyard claiming needs to replace pipe.
> Pipe gets replaced all the way to the main. The main is 2 meters deep. The plumber replaces the pipe but does not set the pipe on the bottom of the trench but half way up in the air and backfills the lot, charges $3500 and goes home.
> One month later the soil sets and the pipe is bent like a banana and brakes. The job had to be redone...not once but twice. *This is Sydney trade for you.*

  mmm no - as my old Stats prof used to say a sample of one (or even a few) is not statistically significant. This was just one guy . . . There are 'dodgy bros' in every type of work - that's why word of mouth is the best form of reference. We could go down the path of talking about clients who want the cheapest quote and expect the highest quality (rather the quality to match the price) and know all about cost and nothing about value, but again because there are some like that does not mean they all are.  Oops - strayed into the wrong area again

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## intertd6

> thank you for your advice, but i already have a thorough understanding of safe work practices and manual handling... that said and done, there is no way possible to allow for forklifts to do the work of a wheelbarrow in a domestic building situation. work safe have been right through my safe work method statements (SWMS) and have had no problem with  them.
> hope this helps! 
> @ marc. you are a tool!

  Worksafe can say one thing & do another untill an accident happens. A judge will take the regulations literally & many a building career has ended this way. Just to tell you of something I experienced on a site in a beachside suburb of sydney, an ambulance had to attend my site for suspected broken limbs, just as they were loading the patient onto the trolley some guy from the many onlookers around leaned over & handed over a business card from a very well known law firm well known for compensation cases, nothing ever came of it, but it does happen.
regards inter

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## SilentButDeadly

> I think you are just lucky or live in an area with not much demand for work.

  Hardly.  Plenty of work here and nowhere near enough tradespeople.  Too many of the young uns go pootling off into the mining industry and many of those remaining don't want to go through the bureacratic pain of operating their own business so they often work for the commercial & industrial guys who charge industrial pay rates... 
You certainly can't hire a general builder round here any time soon...I can get a whole house made in terms of compiling the parts off a plan but there's no-one around whose both available & licenced to put it together!! 
I suspect your particular problem is that you make the proverbial rod for your own back with your attitude and everyone takes the opportunity to flog you with it.  :No:

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## Moondog55

> Moondog, I did say "trades are not professions", and did not say tradies cannot behave professionally, and very many do. You also sort of confirmed my point. 
> A little reading into what it means to be considered a Professional, and this one in particular made me smile _- 
> "A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities  while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed  person, career, enterprise, business, company, or  partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher  duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a  duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to  pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required  to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests"_

  OMG Talk about laugh, I must show this to our last "lawyer"
Actually I thought i was refuting your point, but everything is open to interpretation, I wonder where politicians fit into this discussion??
Personally I think the artificial distinctions between Trades // Professionals and Services is an attitude rooted in the late 1800s and needs to disappear very quickly.
Like calling Army officers Mister because the purchased their commission

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## paddyjoy

> I'm a firm believer in 'knowledge'.  I think a better job happens when the tradie and the DIYer have the required knowledge - or at least enough knowledge to understand what they are getting in to before they start.  Even in restricted trades (such as electrical and plumbing) this also holds true.  While the DIYer shouldn't legally be doing restricted work, it is better that they understand what should be done (and why) so that they can check that they are getting a good job done.

  I agree with this, the australian standards should be free and easily available to everyone. There is a wealth of information in there that could potentially make a lot of work carried out safer. I know you can buy them for $100 a pop but in reality how many DIYers actually do that, usually the person has already decided if they are capable or not of performing the task before they tackle the minor details and as they say the devil is in the details  :Devil:

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## Master Splinter

> OMG Talk about laugh, I must show this to our last "lawyer"

  Don't do that, he will bill you for 15 minutes of his time to read it.....

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## intertd6

> Don't do that, he will bill you for 15 minutes of his time to read it.....

   Or even better if some one is caught out doing some thing really dodgy all the standards, rules & laws will be read out in court back to them at great expence.
regards inter

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## Moondog55

> Don't do that, he will bill you for 15 minutes of his time to read it.....

  OH! No!!!!, 15 minutes of "lawyer time" is 3 hours on anybody elses clock

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## r3nov8or

> OH! No!!!!, 15 minutes of "lawyer time" is 3 hours on anybody elses clock

  And a plumber's  :Shock:

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## Marc

> mmm no - as my old Stats prof used to say a sample of one (or even a few) is not statistically significant. This was just one guy . . . There are 'dodgy bros' in every type of work - that's why word of mouth is the best form of reference. We could go down the path of talking about clients who want the cheapest quote and expect the highest quality (rather the quality to match the price) and know all about cost and nothing about value, but again because there are some like that does not mean they all are.  Oops - strayed into the wrong area again

  How much time do you have?
I contract tradesman all the time and I can list about 20 dodgy jobs done by tradies only this year. that is 20 out of approx 50.
I am not your average domestic consumer so have a story or two to tell. 
As for the previous comment by Gaza ... well what do you expect?...that I may be the guy who makes up stories not to pay, I have yet to let go one tradesmen without his pay, deserved or not.
  4 years ago I paid a "plumber" $900 to move a hot water system 5 meters to a temporary position, so all pipes showing. I paid but he lost a customer. And the reason he overcharged me so badly is because I for once did not ask for a quote since he had done a lot of work for me.
  Thebricklayer told me later that he had told him he needed cash to go rockclimbing wiht his girlfriend.
Also ...how many times have you asked for a quote, even written quote and when it comes to pay you are told...
"A cheque? aaaaaah but then you have to pay GST !!!" 
I don't know how it is in your neck of the woods but in Sydney it is shonkytown galore, and no I don't take the cheapest quote.

----------


## Marc

> I suspect your particular problem is that you make the proverbial rod for your own back with your attitude and everyone takes the opportunity to flog you with it.

  Well, you can make that assumption but you don't really know me do you? 
The thread is about tradesman versus DIY.
I say tradesman SHOULD know better all along.
The fact that many times they fall short is not because of lack of knowledge but because of lack of honesty. 
And the reason people resort to DIY is, at a guess, 20% to do with being stingy, 20% because the money is simply not there, and 60% because of the poor record of the local tradesman.
How are you going to pay? Because I must add GST to that ...... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## goldie1

[QUOTE=Marc;879711]simply not there, and 60% because of the poor record of the local tradesman.
QUOTE]  
I think this is a large exaggeration. I lived in Sydney for 28 years including the 80s, worked in the building 
industry all the time and employed many tradesman of all types. I agree there is no shortage of shonks ( they 
come out of the wood work during busy times, the big hail storm that cleaned up most of the roofs from Botany 
to the Eastern suburbs is an example) but a long way short of 60%

----------


## Marc

[QUOTE=goldie1;879719]  

> simply not there, and 60% because of the poor record of the local tradesman.
> QUOTE]  
> I think this is a large exaggeration. I lived in Sydney for 28 years including the 80s, worked in the building 
> industry all the time and employed many tradesman of all types. I agree there is no shortage of shonks ( they 
> come out of the wood work during busy times, the big hail storm that cleaned up most of the roofs from Botany 
> to the Eastern suburbs is an example) but a long way short of 60%

  You misinterpreted my post entirely
I said that DIYselfers, resort to do it themselves motivated, in 60% of cases ( a wild guess of mine) due to tradesman's bad reputation true or perceived. 40% have other reasons to do it themselves.
If you want to speculate how many tradesman are dishonest in Sydney, be my guest. I would say 30 to 40% but that is not based on statistics only my own experience. 
The fact remains that even if there is only 5% that are dishonest, the point of this thread is to establish what is the cause of a bad job, and the assumption or overarching speculation is that DIY are ignorant and therefore do a bad job. Tradesman are in the know and do a good job. 
I digress. 
When it may be so in the case of DIY. Bad job because of ignorance or penny pinching, a tradesman does a bad job (if they do and percentages aside) because of dishonesty.
That is my point.
PS
What is an indicator of honesty? How about quoting GST included and not ask for GST on top of the quote at the end of the job?
Conversely honesty from the consumer. How many ask for a discount for cash?
Should we bring the BER or pink batts or Solar in the debate?

----------


## goldie1

> You misinterpreted my post entirely
> I said that DIYselfers, resort to do it themselves motivated, in 60% of cases ( a wild guess of mine) due to tradesman's bad reputation true or perceived. 40% have other reasons to do it themselves. 
> If you want to speculate how many tradesman are dishonest in Sydney, be my guest. I would say 30 to 40% but that is not based on statistics only my own experience. 
> The fact remains that even if there is only 5% that are dishonest, the point of this thread is to establish what is the cause of a bad job, and the assumption or overarching speculation is that DIY are ignorant and therefore do a bad job. Tradesman are in the know and do a good job. 
> I digress. 
> When it may be so in the case of DIY. Bad job because of ignorance or penny pinching, a tradesman does a bad job (if they do and percentages aside) because of dishonesty.
> That is my point.
> PS
> What is an indicator of honesty? How about quoting GST included and not ask for GST on top of the quote at the end of the job?
> ...

  I don't misinterpret your post at all. 60% of DIY is a result of fear of shonky tradies. Marc your dreaming!
The bit you did get right is it was a wild guess on your part.  60% as a result of watching TV reno shows more like it. 
This last bit about the pink batts etc reinforces my point that shonks come out of the woodwork during busy times

----------


## Marc

Still off the mark, anyway, who cares.
By the way what is it with the antagonism?   
60% or 6% is irrelevant, are bad jobs a result of ignorance in your view? 
A mild case of injudicious trade person. He or she just forgotten? 
The plumber who installed a solar hot water system in a rental, bent the pipes under the house using his knee or similar method, kinking them all so badly that the water made a sound like an antiaircraft alarm. 
He must have just forgotten how to do it !

----------


## Kyle

> the bit that gives me the @@@@@, is when some so called diy'ers, begrudge the income of tradesmen, or classify a whole trade based on their limited experience.

   :What he said:  
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.      
It also seems someone else is using this thread to stroke their own ego...

----------


## goldie1

> Still off the mark, anyway, who cares.
> By the way what is it with the antagonism?  
> 60% or 6% is irrelevant, are bad jobs a result of ignorance in your view? 
> A mild case of injudicious trade person. He or she just forgotten? 
> The plumber who installed a solar hot water system in a rental, bent the pipes under the house using his knee or similar method, kinking them all so badly that the water made a sound like an antiaircraft alarm. 
> He must have just forgotten how to do it !

  No antagonism from me. Part of your post was over the top IMO and I said so. 
Bad jobs are a result of lots of things. Crooks, shonks, cowboys, people who don't care, thieves, people with 
hangovers, people who hate their jobs, the list goes on

----------


## r3nov8or

Hey, I have thought of a 'definiton' of trades versus professions that IMHO fits *most* but not all situations. 
When you need a professional you go to them
When you need a tradesman they come to you.

----------


## chrisp

> Hey, I have thought of a 'definiton' of trades versus professions that IMHO fits *most* but not all situations. 
> When you need a professional you go to them
> When you need a tradesman they come to you.

  The definition of "professional" is very broad and can be synonyms with "livelihood", "quality" or it can mean "learned professional". 
I'd suggest that a possible distinction between trades and professions could be:  a "professional" is employed/paid for what they know;a "tradesman" is employed/paid for what they produce; 
A professional is primarily employed for their knowledge, whereas a tradesman would be primarily employed for what they make/build. A professional would design a building, a tradesman would construct it.  Either could do it badly ("unprofessionally") or could do it well ("professionally").  :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

So what would be the definition of a person who has the ability to design and construct?  :Smilie:

----------


## chrisp

> So what would be the definition of a person who has the ability to design and construct?

  "Husband"?   :Smilie:

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> So what would be the definition of a person who has the ability to design and construct?

  Fortunate. 
The definition of a person who acts on that ability?  
Under appreciated.

----------


## Bedford

OK, I think I've worked it out.
 If you took your dog to the Vet he'd be a professional, and if the Vet did a house call he'd be a tradie. :Doh:

----------


## chrisp

> OK, I think I've worked it out.
>  If you took your dog to the Vet he'd be a professional, and if the Vet did a house call he'd be a tradie.

  Maybe a 'dog' vet is a professional, whereas a 'horse' vet is a tradie?   :Biggrin:

----------


## SlowMick

What happened to the world being split into amateurs and professionals?

----------


## r3nov8or

> OK, I think I've worked it out.
>  If you took your dog to the Vet he'd be a professional, and if the Vet did a house call he'd be a tradie.

  Precisely why I said "most but not all situations"

----------


## r3nov8or

> So what would be the definition of a person who has the ability to design and construct?

  All the way from someone formally qualified in both that never uses the skills, through to someone who has educated him/herself to do both and regularly proves it, and almost any combination or permutation in between.

----------


## Cecile

> Don't do that, he will bill you for 15 minutes of his time to read it.....

  No he won't.  He'll have to deal with me, and I WILL get them to delete most of their unitemised account that was raised against a job for which they had not been given authority. 
Don't mess with this little black duck  :Tongue:

----------


## Johning

My thoughts on the definition of occupational classes  
 A professional works mostly with his or her brain.
 A tradesman works mostly with his or her hands.
 A labourer works mostly with his or her back.   The Two Ronnies - 2000 Today - YouTube

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> My thoughts on the definition of occupational classes  
>  A professional works mostly with his or her brain.
>  A tradesman works mostly with his or her hands.
>  A labourer works mostly with his or her back.

  I was trained to work with all three...by that definition, I think that makes me a professional labourer with trade qualifications.  As a bureaucrat, I can then add yet another adjective to the title...'unemployed'.   :Shock:

----------


## Johning

> I was trained to work with all three...by that definition, I think that makes me a professional labourer with trade qualifications.  As a bureaucrat, I can then add yet another adjective to the title...'unemployed'.

  Wow. My life seems to have mirrored yours. I was also trained, and earned money, in all three classes. I don't think I ever got confused about what class of work I was undertaking though. When I was a labourer I knew it was my back that was doing the work. When I was a tradesman it was my hands. When I was a professional it was my brain. I also worked as a  bureaucrat, towards the end of my career, and I do tend to agree with you that the system does tend to stifle creative work output.  :Blush7:

----------


## andy the pm

> No he won't.  He'll have to deal with me, and I WILL get them to delete most of their unitemised account that was raised against a job for which they had not been given authority. 
> Don't mess with this little black duck

  I had that as well. The thieving parasites tried to charge me over $200 for what was basically business development including 2 calls to me to drum up work and reading an email I sent them saying thanks but no thanks!!
I didn't have to pay in the end...

----------


## Marc

> What happened to the world being split into amateurs and professionals?

  That is an interesting question but one that does not clarify the original debate.
By definition a professional makes a living from a certain activity, an amateur does it out of love for such activity. 
Based on that, one would think that whoever does it because he likes it would do a better job than the one that is the proverbial hired hand. 
However amateur is also used in a pejorative connotation as meaning beginner, and professional meaning fully qualified, reliable, top class. 
The fact remains that if a professional does a lousy job, the amateur is entitled to say he would have done a better job.

----------


## boo

> It is unfortunate but at least in Sydney, a large majority of tradesman are not incompetent but highly dishonest and some times borderline with criminal negligence.
> ...
> And yes some may be just incompetent or lazy.
> ...
> And yes you can identify them by their ethnic background.

  We're all ethnics mate. This comment is way out of line. 
The only thing that surprises me more than your post is that no-one else has highlighted this up until now.

----------


## PeteV

> We're all ethnics mate. This comment is way out of line. 
> The only thing that surprises me more than your post is that no-one else has highlighted this up until now.

  i think everyone just assumes that marc is a knob... 
i wouldn't take it to heart...

----------


## boo

Yes, I struggled with whether to point it out or ignore it, as I suspect others did, because the thread could otherwise be very interesting...  
*acknowledges remarks are poor form* 
*encourages readers to do the same and move on*

----------


## Johning

> We're all ethnics mate. This comment is way out of line. 
> The only thing that surprises me more than your post is that no-one else has highlighted this up until now.

  To be fair. Marc did not state that he believed that humans were divided into two sets. ie ethnics and non ethnics. He merely stated that he (ok he used the word you) had the ability to judge the capability of a person based on their ethnic background. I personally do not have this skill, but you must admit that it would be very useful to have.  :Wink:

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> The fact remains that if a professional does a lousy job, the amateur is entitled to say he would have done a better job.

  The feeling of entitlement without the burden of knowledge or proof.  The mark of a true amateur.

----------


## r3nov8or

> The feeling of entitlement without the burden of knowledge or proof.  The mark of a true amateur.

  It is just as likely that the 'amateur' knows from years of experience and self-education and proof through many projects that he could have done a better job, but just didn't have the time this time, and thought he/she would trust an 'expert' to do it...

----------


## SlowMick

I think the problem comes from the communication of expectations. 
I would think that most people on this forum strive for a high quality finish  either from a professional or from their own work.  If they wanted to be really rough they probably wouldnt bother researching how to do the task at all. 
I know when I complete a task I can see the errors I have made along the way and things I would improve next time.  There are plenty of posts from people who would have liked a better finish but it was the best they could do. 
Most people would also expect that a professional (Tradie or otherwise) could complete a task quicker and to a higher standard than someone who is new to the task or does it rarely. That is the benefit of experience.  
When you buy an object you can see exactly what you are getting and you  decide if you think it is worth it.   
For work provided by a professional you have to build up a picture in your mind as to the outcome of the project and then decide if what you picture in your mind is worth the money.  
Best case is you are lucky and your professional has higher expectations than you as to what is a required.   People shout these guys names from the rooftop  recommending them to everyone who will listen. 
Worst case the professional you get has lower expectations and the person feels ripped off.  They also shout about these guys but not in a good way. 
Shopping around doesnt help.  How can you compare two things that dont exist?  I dont understand haggling either. 
I think the majority of trades do a fair job for the money and time allocated.  I am sure there are rogues who do as little as possible. 
Think Ill go have lie down now.

----------


## johnc

For the tradies, 
There are two types of clients out there, good clients and @holes. Those good clients are great, they give clear instructions of what they want, are reasonable in both the time taken to start and do the job and pay once the bill is sent. The other type is the @hole, they bitch and whine about almost everything including the last bloke that worked for them. They are unclear about what they want done, seldom happy whatever it is you've done and complain endlessly about the job and the bill, and want the job done yesterday and badger you to put them at the top of the list. 
The thing is the nice people have nice friends who when they may ask about who they use for X are told we use Fred great bloke, good work good price but it takes forever to get him around to get it done. 
The @holes have like minded mates who when asked who they used for X are told we use Fred, useless, got to watch him like a hawk, bills to much but may reduce it when you complain but usually comes straightaway if you apply constant pressure. 
So next time you respond to that whining disorganised @hole and do his work straightaway to get him off your back, just remember, if you do you are going to end up with a client base of people you don't want. Simply because all the good ones went elsewhere to someone who kept them in the right spot on the list. While the ones you didn't want use you because you came quickly and will reduce the bill when pushed. 
Think what you will but I reckon you can spot both types when you read through the pages on forums like this.

----------


## boo

> To be fair. Marc did not state that he believed that humans were divided into two sets. ie ethnics and non ethnics. He merely stated that he (ok he used the word you) had the ability to judge the capability of a person based on their ethnic background. I personally do not have this skill, but you must admit that it would be very useful to have.

  Semantics. 
Boo (waves hand in Jedi like manner): "You don't need to discuss this matter further" 
Other posters (in a trance): "We don't need to discuss this matter further" 
Boo: "Move along..." 
Others posters: "Move along ... move along..." 
What were we talking about? Oh yes "@holes" 
Please, continue...

----------


## johnc

> Semantics. 
> Boo (waves hand in Jedi like manner): "You don't need to discuss this matter further" 
> Other posters (in a trance): "We don't need to discuss this matter further" 
> Boo: "Move along..." 
> Others posters: "Move along ... move along..." 
> What were we talking about? Oh yes "@holes" 
> Please, continue...

  Oddly enough moving along hasn't changed the subject, well done that man.

----------


## boo

Yes, I did! We're up to "@holes" remember... Just keeping on your topic  :Smilie:

----------


## watson

Ok............looks like the topic is now @holes.
So lets stick to the topic please.

----------


## Marc

> To be fair. Marc did not state that he believed that humans were divided into two sets. ie ethnics and non ethnics...etc

   Not exactly but close.
As any farmer can tell you, when you choose a kind of seed or animal or tree you choose based on genetic make up because you expect the individual you choose to behave as is expected from observation of similar individuals. 
Humans are no different. 
Our genetic code determines among other things our behavior, and when  there are obviously wide variations among individuals with a similar  genetic make up ergo why it is illegal to discriminate based on  appearances, to dismiss such data in a pre-selection because it is  politically incorrect is rather stupid.   
Anyone looking for a partner does exactly that, discriminate based on appearance first, then based on behavior, on smell and other odd data.  
I bet you that if we build a database of many thousands of jobs and classify the jobs in say good, poor and bad, and then on another column the Body Odor of the person that did the job, we may actually get a pattern. May be Terrible BO = best job (?) who knows! Would be interesting to link biological markers with honesty or if you prefer with woodworking skills.

----------


## Marc

> For the tradies, 
> There are two types of clients out there, good clients and @holes.  etc etc etc

  For the customers:
 There are two types of tradies out there, the good one and the @sholes.
The good ones are great. They spot what you need straight away, ask few questions, are prompt with their quote and clear in the method of payment.
The @sholes you can spot from a mile. The quote is written on an old envelop. They are pretentious and bombasting, they are experts in telling you that the way you ( the ignorant) want the job costs more and their shortcut is safe, the list of materials is up to you and when it comes to pay...you guessed it, the quote did not include GST.
Your method of discriminating clients in fact may well be very similar to my method of discriminating tradesman, however I wouldn't go as far as you pretending to know others from an internet forum.
I can predict a person's behavior from a short meeting. You get good at it with practice. You can not do the same from reading a few post.

----------


## Master Splinter

Of course, rather than genetic factors it could be differences based on cultural values that influence the definition of good/bad tradesmen; the following is so old I first saw it on a fax, in the days when fax machines took a few minutes to send a page and thermal paper was a new thing... 
Heaven is where: 
The police are British
The cooks are Italian
The lovers are French
The mechanics are German
And it's all organized by the Swiss 
Hell is where... 
The cooks are British
The mechanics are French
The lovers are Swiss
The police are German
And it's all organized by the Italians

----------


## Marc

> Of course, rather than genetic factors it could be differences based on cultural values that influence the definition of good/bad tradesmen; the following is so old I first saw it on a fax, in the days when fax machines took a few minutes to send a page and thermal paper was a new thing... 
> Heaven is where: 
> The police are British
> The cooks are Italian
> The lovers are French
> The mechanics are German
> And it's all organized by the Swiss 
> Hell is where... 
> The cooks are British
> ...

  Love it!
However I would prefer French cooks and Italian lovers 
PS  

```
 Of course, rather than genetic factors it could be differences based on  cultural values that influence the definition of good/bad tradesmen 
  
```

 What is first, the chicken or the egg?

----------


## Bedford

I don't think it was  Chris's intention when starting this thread for it  to develop this way,  as it is it achieves nothing but bitterness.  
As renovators, predominately we do as much as we can ourselves, sometimes we just need a bit of advice along the way.  
We are very fortunate here that we have Tradies and retired Tradies   that come on each day and spend their time to give  free advice and   helpful suggestions, we should be thankful for that.  
Sometimes the answer (or lack of) is not what we want to hear but is   given after a tradies assessment  of the situation in regards to the   safety and legalities of a DIYer proceeding.  
The intention of this forum is to help people, not to "knock" them  for  asking a question, just because someone asks a "Trade only "  question  doesn't necessarily mean they will act on it, the answer may  convince  them that they are better to use a tradesperson, so the end  result  could be that they get the job done, legally and safely.

----------


## johnc

> For the customers:
> There are two types of tradies out there, the good one and the @sholes.
> The good ones are great. They spot what you need straight away, ask few questions, are prompt with their quote and clear in the method of payment.
> The @sholes you can spot from a mile. The quote is written on an old envelop. They are pretentious and bombasting, they are experts in telling you that the way you ( the ignorant) want the job costs more and their shortcut is safe, the list of materials is up to you and when it comes to pay...you guessed it, the quote did not include GST.
> Your method of discriminating clients in fact may well be very similar to my method of discriminating tradesman, however I wouldn't go as far as you pretending to know others from an internet forum.
> I can predict a person's behavior from a short meeting. You get good at it with practice. You can not do the same from reading a few post.

  The same does apply in reverse, a tradie who is organised in his approach, clear when he can start and probably finish, can quote and clearly set out any possible variables always beats the disorganised bloke lurching from crisis to crisis, unable to manage his time or articulate any issues. Often written comments indicate how a person thinks, however an open and willing mind coupled with a sense of fairness probably helps anyone negotiating with others.

----------


## watson

> I don't think it was  Chris's intention when starting this thread for it  to develop this way,  as it is it achieves nothing but bitterness.  
> As renovators, predominately we do as much as we can ourselves, sometimes we just need a bit of advice along the way.  
> We are very fortunate here that we have Tradies and retired Tradies   that come on each day and spend their time to give  free advice and   helpful suggestions, we should be thankful for that.  
> Sometimes the answer (or lack of) is not what we want to hear but is   given after a tradies assessment  of the situation in regards to the   safety and legalities of a DIYer proceeding.  
> The intention of this forum is to help people, not to "knock" them  for  asking a question, just because someone asks a "Trade only "  question  doesn't necessarily mean they will act on it, the answer may  convince  them that they are better to use a tradesperson, so the end  result  could be that they get the job done, legally and safely.

   :What he said:  ................Big Time!!!

----------


## boo

> ................Big Time!!!

  Can we close off this thread and let it disappear into obscurity? 
Or even wipe it out entirely? On review it has virtually no value... 
... apart from Cecile's wise advice, "Don't mess with this little black duck" of course...  :Smilie:

----------


## johnc

Good idea, there is nothing to gain from a slanging match, quality varies across the board regardless of grouping. This forum is a help forum by fellow hacks and a few trades assisting. I'm sure Watson would be a lot happier if we just behaved and got on with it rather than indulge in this game of  who's worse as there is no answer it depends on the individual.

----------


## chrisp

I'm certainly surprised that the thread turned to definitions for a while - and definitions that weren't part of the opening post! 
Why did I start this thread?  I think I gave the reasons in post #1, but the intention was to allow some to vent in the discussion forum rather than in some of the other threads (as was happening at the time). 
I suspect that this topic will be an 'evergreen' and similar arguments will surface from time to time.  There seems to be a lot of latent(???) pent-up tension between DIYers and tradies for various reasons. 
For what it is worth, I'm completely open to answering others' questions whenever it is in my skill set or experience.  However, In my case, it is no skin off my nose whether one (edit: as in 'others') employs a tradesman or does it themselves - it makes absolutely no difference to me personally.   
My (figurative) hat goes off to those who actually provide information to DIYers, and could be seen as encouraging others to do-it-themselves rather than hire-the-tradie.  Members like Rod Dyson, wonderplumb, plum, Dusty, ringtail - and many, many other too - are examples of this.  They are providing information to forum members that actually may impact on their business.  I hold these members in very high esteem.  These guys are helping us out and it may be costing them business.  Personally, if I need a tradie, I'll be heading for these guys (assuming they're in my area). 
Are there charlatans in the trades and home owners? Absolutely!  But, it is no different to any other fields or endeavours - they all have their 'bad apples'. 
My view is that the world works better when people share knowledge and abilities rather than try and capitalise on some sort of exclusive or secret knowledge - but then again, maybe I'm just naive, gullible or idealistic.  :Doh:  
I think it is good to vent, but it is also helpful to keep it constructive too.   :Smilie:

----------


## chrisp

> ...it is also helpful to keep it constructive too.

  ... and, I forgot, keep it humourous too!   :Smilie:

----------


## boo

@ chrisp 
 I stand corrected: that was worth posting...

----------


## watson

> ... and, I forgot, keep it humourous too!

  I can do that.......... 
The Boy stood on the burning deck........'cos his DIY Dad had plumbed his own BBQ......against the gasfitters advice.........and they all lived happily thereafter.........AMEN. 
How's that???

----------


## shauck

> I can predict a person's behavior from a short meeting. You get good at it with practice. You can not do the same from reading a few post.

  If you're so good at it, how come you end up with so many bad tradies? Slow learner, perhaps? 
Oh, and seeing as my heritage is German a long way back (first generation Australian), I suppose I should put that on a business card? 
Sorry, couldn't help myself.

----------


## r3nov8or

Marc, so I'm eager to know... 
Heaven is where: 
The plumbers are <nationality>??
The carpenters are <nationality>??
The electricians are <nationality>??
The plasterers are <nationality>??
The concreters are <nationality>??
The bricklayers are <nationality>??
And it's all organized by Marc 
Hell is where... 
The plumbers are <nationality>??
 The carpenters are <nationality>??
The electricians are <nationality>??
The plasterers are <nationality>??
The concreters are <nationality>??
The bricklayers are <nationality>??
And it's all organized by Marc

----------


## chrisp

> I can do that.......... 
> The Boy stood on the burning deck........'cos his DIY Dad had plumbed  his own BBQ......against the gasfitters advice.........and they all  lived happily thereafter.........AMEN. 
> How's that???

  That's a hard act to follow. 
I can't do limericks, but how about this...   

> As any farmer can tell you, when you choose a kind of seed or animal or tree you choose based on genetic make up because you expect the individual you choose to behave as is expected from observation of similar individuals.

  Question:
If Marc was a farm animal, I wonder if he'd be gelded?   :Smilie:

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## r3nov8or

Some humour? OK, since we've been comparing people - 
There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't.

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## Johning

> Semantics. 
> Boo (waves hand in Jedi like manner): "You don't need to discuss this matter further" 
> Other posters (in a trance): "We don't need to discuss this matter further" 
> Boo: "Move along..." 
> Others posters: "Move along ... move along..." 
> What were we talking about? Oh yes "@holes" 
> Please, continue...

   :Aargh:   Aargh: Not the dreaded semantics card. 
 When used in an argument is often code for technically you are right but *I* *know* what he *really* means.
 Wait a minute: I am entering a trance and I have an overwhelming desire to move along. A delayed response, I grant you, but you must take into account the transit time of spells. :Zzsoft:

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## Johning

> I watched a ep of Grand Designs last night where the fella was self building from scratch. He had bugger all money so did everything himself. Got himself a book and "taught" himself electrics, same with plumbing - seemed to work out fine but had me wondering with the "what if" factor. Then after a while I came to the conclusion of well, why not. If he is competant enough to design and build his own house who says he is not competant enough to do his own wiring and plumbing. I dont know what the voltage is in the UK

  I have a confession to make. I am a recovering Pom and I have been so for 30 years. :Smilie:  
 At the outset I also have to confess I have had no training in either electrical installation work or plumbing work.
 In the mid 1970's I bought a fixer upper in London and  it needed to be rewired and re-plumbed. 
 All my knowledge was obtained from a house maintenance book. House maintenance  (DIY) books included chapters on Electrical wiring and  Plumbing along with Painting, Tiling, Carpentry ,bricklaying, landscapingetc .   
 The house was wired with rubber insulated cable in split steel conduit. The insulation cracked off of the cable if it was moved. All was removed and replaced with modern equivalent. 
 The procedure for rewiring the house was.  Get power supply company to     disconnect house. They removed service fuse and sealed the fuse     holder. This step was not mandatory but had the advantage that when     the job was finished and ready for connection they would test the     installation.Rewire house.Call power supply company to     reconnect.Power supply technician comes and     checks
     1. correct components had been     selected (cable, switches, GPO, fuses, conduits)
     2. cables installed properly     (correct depth in plaster, vertical runs etc.)
     3. circuit resistance measured.
     4. insulation resistance measured.
     5. GPOs checked for correct polarity
     6. switches checked (switched     active/live)
     7 quality of electrical connections     inspected (sample)
     8 probably more checks I can't     rememberIf all OK the technician     reconnects house. (job done)  
 Suffice it to say my very first electrical installation passed the inspection. Note that the inspection took approximately one hour and at zero expense to me. 
 I also moved the kitchen from one room to another, installed a gas fired boiler, installed an hydronic
 central heating system (each room on a separate thermostat and timer). I did all the plumbing except the gas fitting. I still consider gas to be very dangerous and would not touch it even though, at the time, I legally could. I even had to do some REAL plumbing (lead pipes). All was in the book. 
 In answer to your what if. The electrical system and plumbing functioned fine. I recently checked the house on Google Maps and it has not burned down. 
 In the UK domestic electrical work and plumbing is not considered difficult and it is not unusual for people to DIY. 
 PS When I came to Australia I was surprised that electrical and plumbing were restricted trades. I asked why and was told that the government did not think that the general public was capable of undertaking these tasks. 
 PPS In Australia I do not do my own electrical work or plumbing. (trust me) :Annoyed: . I tend to build houses and I need the compliance certificates. :Smilie:

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## SilentButDeadly

> In the UK domestic electrical work and plumbing is not considered difficult and it is not unusual for people to DIY.

  Same is often true here when it's all done and said.  Perhaps the major difference here is that we don't read or follow instructions?  :Wink 1:  
Oh and as for it being the fault of the Government...I call 'bull' on that one.  Governments of all flavours tend to follow the leader when it comes to regulatory policy. In this case, that'd be the insurance industry and much of the building industry representative bodies. Match that against an apathetic populace and.....whacko! 
Can I smell smoke?

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## intertd6

There are some people that can do as good a job DIY as in quality, but they can't do it as fast or in one go as they don't have the knowledge with the trade skills. I can get the worst of the worst trades any day of the week if I just go for the lowest price every time. Before engaging contractors you have to check their past performance for quality, skills, punctuality, intelligence, licences, insurances, workers comp & just as importantly they are reasonable people who are easy to get on with & don't come unhinged with the normal ups & downs of a building project.
regards inter

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## Marc

Very funny everyone. As always it is necessary to behave like adults when debating topics that are politically incorrect.
Perhaps we should re-name this thread, adults only. 
Back on the DIY versus Tradesman or professional if you prefer. 
I had an asbestos ceiling on a veranda that needed to be removed. 
Called in the 'professional' asbestos remover. Had 2 quotes, one was $500 over the phone site not seen, the other came to see the job and quoted $1000.
I did not trust the cheaper quote so called this one in.
Came yesterday. 
All was good, until the sheets started coming down. The guy started a tirade against "owner builders". This is the work of an OB, he was ranting, for sure! Look at this!! all glued up, nailed and glued, why would you glue if you use nails!!! and on he went. 
I was well away inside the house looking through the sliding door. Not interested in sucking in any of the stuff.
As they finished pulling the sheets down and they were ready to clean up, I asked ... what about all the lumps of asbestos sticking to the glue?
Oh, he replied casually, I can leave you a few mask an overall and a bag, and you can chip them off yourself and throw the bag in the rubbish bin.  :Annoyed: 
Really? I said -so you recon it is safe for me to do that? 
He got the message, and after asking to borrow a chisel from me chipped away himself for the next 2 hours.
When it came to pay, as expected, the quote was not including the GST.  What a surprise. 
Moral of the story. Tradesman or professional don't necessarily do a good job because they make a living from it. They do mostly because they have to. 
The one that do a good job because that is how they are, true professionals... are the one that are proud of what they do and I must say that such have become very scarce, almost extinct. 
As for the "owner builder" hate club, I heard this before mostly from carpenters and painters, it is almost a pride thing, to put the owner builder down particularly when he over engineers his job. 
Go figure!
Reminds me of Fawlty Towers, "would have been a wonderful _job_, _if it wasn't for the guests_."

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## Marc

> ..........Can I smell smoke?

  Yep, it's from that 10Amp outlet with the 15 AMP filed down earth pin ....  :Biggrin:

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## Marc

> If you're so good at it, how come you end up with so many bad tradies? Slow learner, perhaps? 
> Oh, and seeing as my heritage is German a long way back (first generation Australian), I suppose I should put that on a business card? 
> Sorry, couldn't help myself.

  Easy Herr Shauck, if the average is say 20% bad 80% good, in the long run and if you contract a large number you will end up no matter what with 20% bad, 80 % good. There is no escaping statistics.
If you contracted one carpenter once in a lifetime and it turns out excellent, you will rant and rave for the next 20 years how good all carpenters are?  
As for adding your heritage to your business card, it all depends from what is your occupation. German technicians tradesman, engineers etc are very well respected in professional circles, however for the general public it could be detrimental. Not sure, you will have to figure that one out for yourself.

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## Bloss

> Easy Herr Shauck

  That'd be Frau Shauck to you . . .  :Rolleyes:

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## Bloss

> Some humour? OK, since we've been comparing people - 
> There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't.

  Nah 10000 - those who understand hexadecimal and those who are stuck in binary . . .  :Wink:

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## Bloss

> When it came to pay, as expected, the quote was not including the GST.  What a surprise.

  So of course as a good moral and honest citizen you in insisted on being given the proper Tax Invoice and paid the correct amount including GST. I hope you raised the matter with the ATO too. In which case good on you.  :2thumbsup:  
. . . or did you just pay the cheaper cash price . . . in which case then you join him as a tax cheat . . . so maybe that's why you were not surprised   :Confused:

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## Marc

> So of course as a good moral and honest citizen you in insisted on being given the proper Tax Invoice and paid the correct amount including GST. I hope you raised the matter with the ATO too. In which case good on you.  
> . . . or did you just pay the cheaper cash price . . . in which case then you join him as a tax cheat . . . so maybe that's why you were not surprised

  Sarcasm noted yet uncalled for. 
It is not about me nor you for that matter, it is about honesty and the general culture of cheat and ordinary work that makes building a difficult trade. Smugness and attitude do not help.  
If you really must know, a scribble on a piece of paper is worthless when it comes to capital gain tax, so yes I need a proper invoice. As for providing a quote and asking for GST later, that is illegal. Quotes to the consumer must include GST or they are a con.
And yes I am not surprised because it happens all the time.

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## r3nov8or

> Nah 10000 - those who understand hexadecimal and those who are stuck in binary . . .

  What has decimal 65,536 got to do with it?

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## watson

That's the $64K question......... :Hahaha:

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## intertd6

marc. your showing your lack of knowledge in the building industry, building industry written quotes will show either gst inclusive or exclusive prices, its only the dills get caught out taking quotes over the phone where there is no written quote, because they are so disorganised and have zero project management skills they cant wait to have them & want things done yesterday. It comes down to the 7 Ps, prior preparation & planning prevents pi** poor performance . 
regards inter

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## intertd6

.

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## Bloss

> Sarcasm noted yet uncalled for. 
> It is not about me nor you for that matter, it is about honesty and the general culture of cheat and ordinary work that makes building a difficult trade. Smugness and attitude do not help.  
> If you really must know, a scribble on a piece of paper is worthless when it comes to capital gain tax, so yes I need a proper invoice. As for providing a quote and asking for GST later, that is illegal. Quotes to the consumer must include GST or they are a con.
> And yes I am not surprised because it happens all the time.

  So you did get a tax invoice and pay the GST?

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## shauck

Close Bloss. Frauline would be it (Miss). 
Again, Marc you fail to learn from your previous experiences. Why don't you ask, when being given a quote, if it is GST inclusive? Clear it up straight away. You have nothing to complain about on this matter.

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## shauck

> I contract tradesman all the time and I can list about 20 dodgy jobs done by tradies only this year. that is 20 out of approx 50.

  Can't see any consistency between your posts. 20 out of 50 does not equal 20% bad to 80% good tradies as you recently posted.

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## ringtail

I think its law now that all prices quoted must include GST and the final amount must include GST with the GST amount been shown separately. Something like 
Total price includes GST of $ 10.00                     Total price including GST $ 110.00 
Ive noticed now that my timber supplier will no longer quote prices + GST, everything is including.

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## johnc

> I think its law now that all prices quoted must include GST and the final amount must include GST with the GST amount been shown separately. Something like 
> Total price includes GST of $ 10.00 Total price including GST $ 110.00 
> Ive noticed now that my timber supplier will no longer quote prices + GST, everything is including.

  It has been a requirement since GST came in that invoices and prices must include the GST charge. You can still find Australian internet sites that don't include it in the headline price, and there are quite a few people who do not include it in quotes. It comes down to that often refered to mechanism in life, common sense. If you receive a quote that does not clearly state if GST is included then always ask, there really is no excuse not to if you are aware it is a problem. Bear in mind though not all tradesman are registered for GST but should still have an ABN, if in doubt you can always check on the ABR web site that lists all valid Australian ABN's and their current registration status.  
I am always puzzled by those that think everyone else should be perfect, then use it as an excuse for the situations they find themselves in. We just have to realise a very small percentage are dishonest, a larger group who don't really know what they are doing (or haven't bothered to find out) with the vast bulk of people trying to do the right thing. We just need to ensure we manage the first two groups and hopefully avoid them and become better at identifying the final group.

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## r3nov8or

> That's the $64K question.........

  You and Bloss have something there! And so this whole Tradies V DIYers thing is Better Homes & Gardens fault!!! 
X'10000' = 65,536
65,536 = 64K
64K = Commodore64
Commodore = Holden
Holden = V8
V8 = V8 Supercars
V8 Supercars = Channel 7
Channel 7 = Better Homes & Gardens.
Better Homes & Gardens = DIY
The B@st@rds!!!   :Smilie:

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## watson

Luv It!!!!!!!

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## SilentButDeadly

Cue the wild applause.... :2thumbsup:

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## Bedford

> It has been a requirement since GST came in that invoices and prices must include the GST charge.

  
I had some springs reset last week and was quoted $450 which I accepted and  proceeded with. 
When I picked up the ute and gave him the cheque, this is what he gave me. 
I'm happy enough but I really don't know if it's right or wrong, any thoughts on it please?

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## Johning

> Can I smell smoke?

  Yes. It was me rubbing two sticks together. :Biggrin:

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## Lawriet

He is required to provide you with a receipt.  That receipt must specify his business name and number (ABN) and whether GST has been charged or not. 
Unless he earns over $75,000 gross per year, he is not required to be registered for GST and you do not have to pay the GST.  But equally he cannot claim back GST on any items or purchases he has made.  There is a distinct advantage for a small (micro) business in not being GST registered. 
Unfortunately some individual are not that honest - they do up to the $75G and fill the rest with cash jobs

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## Bedford

Thanks, his business name and ABN are on the invoice, just blanked out to protect the innocent. :Smilie:

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## Johning

> There are some people that can do as good a job DIY as in quality, but they can't do it as fast or in one go as they don't have the knowledge with the trade skills. I can get the worst of the worst trades any day of the week if I just go for the lowest price every time. Before engaging contractors you have to check their past performance for quality, skills, punctuality, intelligence, licences, insurances, workers comp & just as importantly they are reasonable people who are easy to get on with & don't come unhinged with the normal ups & downs of a building project.
> regards inter

   I totally agree that very few DIYers can complete a job as fast as a professional. Even fewer can do a job as well (high quality) as a professional, but some DIYers can come close. I do disagree with the assertion that if you take the lowest quote you will end up with a substandard job. 
Personal experiences.
I took the lowest quote for a plumbing company to install a drain (sewerage connection) to a house I was constructing. The company only installed drains and were so expert at it (they were like a military drill squad) that they could complete a job in a fraction of the time general plumbers would take. Hence they could still make good money and charge a low fee. 
Another example.
I took the lowest quote for the plumbing of a house I was constructing. (two bathrooms, kitchen and laundry). The quotes varied by a factor of four. $700-$3000. Most of the quotes were close to $3000. Well the plumber often did not arrive when he said he would. He was often only on site for an hour and would be called away to do another job. My job was his lowest priority and he would only work on it if he had no other work. In all it took him three weeks to do the job.The finished job was fine (high quality). It did not matter to me how long the job took. I had other work to do on site. 
In my experience low prices do not always equal low quality; in fact I have often found the opposite. Tradesmen highly skilled in their craft can often do a job in a fraction of the time that an unskilled (although qualified) tradesman can do.

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## stevoh741

> Personal experiences.
> I took the lowest quote for a plumbing company to install a drain (sewerage connection) to a house I was constructing. The company only installed drains and were so expert at it (they were like a military drill squad) that they could complete a job in a fraction of the time general plumbers would take.

  Yeah well I took the lowest plumbers quote and I'm still fixing his F&$# ups 4 yrs later.

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## ringtail

> He is required to provide you with a receipt.  That receipt must specify his business name and number (ABN) and whether GST has been charged or not. 
> Unless he earns over $75,000 gross per year, he is not required to be registered for GST and you do not have to pay the GST.  But equally he cannot claim back GST on any items or purchases he has made.  There is a distinct advantage for a small (micro) business in not being GST registered. 
> Unfortunately some individual are not that honest - they do up to the $75G and fill the rest with cash jobs

  
Apart from not having to do the paperwork ( which is dead easy ) whats the advantage in not being registered ? I dont have a downside and I dont turn over a lot - well not in the current climate. If I pay more GST than I collect I get a refund, If I collect more than I pay I send the difference to the ATO, which is paid for by the customer anyway.

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## intertd6

> I totally agree that very few DIYers can complete a job as fast as a professional. Even fewer can do a job as well (high quality) as a professional, but some DIYers can come close. I do disagree with the assertion that if you take the lowest quote you will end up with a substandard job. 
> Personal experiences.
> I took the lowest quote for a plumbing company to install a drain (sewerage connection) to a house I was constructing. The company only installed drains and were so expert at it (they were like a military drill squad) that they could complete a job in a fraction of the time general plumbers would take. Hence they could still make good money and charge a low fee. 
> Another example.
> I took the lowest quote for the plumbing of a house I was constructing. (two bathrooms, kitchen and laundry). The quotes varied by a factor of four. $700-$3000. Most of the quotes were close to $3000. Well the plumber often did not arrive when he said he would. He was often only on site for an hour and would be called away to do another job. My job was his lowest priority and he would only work on it if he had no other work. In all it took him three weeks to do the job.The finished job was fine (high quality). It did not matter to me how long the job took. I had other work to do on site. 
> In my experience low prices do not always equal low quality; in fact I have often found the opposite. Tradesmen highly skilled in their craft can often do a job in a fraction of the time that an unskilled (although qualified) tradesman can do.

  You missed the fine print of my reply  like "if I just go for the lowest price every time" and when you use the selection process i mentioned then you can go for the lowest quote from the quotes that have passed the selection criteria.
regards inter

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## johnc

> Apart from not having to do the paperwork ( which is dead easy ) whats the advantage in not being registered ? I dont have a downside and I dont turn over a lot - well not in the current climate. If I pay more GST than I collect I get a refund, If I collect more than I pay I send the difference to the ATO, which is paid for by the customer anyway.

  Depends on the situation, think of your local hairdresser, other than perhaps some rent and a small amount of product they don't have all that much in the way of GST payments. The other side of the coin is the cost per cut is probably set by the market, if they charge $10 for a number 2 on some half bald coot who will ont be entitled to a GST credit then he only cares about the final cost. So it really means either $10 to the hairdresser, or $9.09 if they happen to be in the GST system. Even though GST is supposed to be on top for some sectors it doesn't really work that way. Also if they don't do their own GST then for this example anything they get back on inputs is likely to be less than the cost of doing the return. 
It's horses for courses, but under $75,000 turnover you really have to look at each situation to work out if it is worth being in the GST system or not.

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## ringtail

The whole idea of the GST is that the end user is the only one to pay it. 20 years ago I was paying $15 for a # 3 so I dont think $10 is realistic but no doubt you are just using this as a example. :Biggrin:  The cost of doing business is obviously built into the price to the customer and nearly all businesses increase costs to the customer to cover their own costs. If they dont, they go broke. If the rent goes up, the cost of a haircut goes up etc.... The cost of having someone else do the cashbooks is tax deductable, as is the gst component of that bill. I think the only downside is the paperwork. Even a hairdresser has a lot of expenses- rent, rates, electricity,insurance, product,machinery,advertising, accounting,training,cleaning,phone,email,car,etc..  ..they jusy keep coming :Biggrin:

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## r3nov8or

People actually pay for clipper haircuts? I DIY my #1 cuts every two weeks too  :Biggrin: .

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## paddyjoy

I think one of the other downsides is that if you don't have good cashflow management it is possible to spend the GST you have collected and then find it hard to pay the ATO at the end of the quarter.

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## Bloss

> Close Bloss. Frauline would be it (Miss).

  Seems my German is a little more current than yours . . .  :Smilie:  have been there every year for the last few. This was the the German equivalent to Ms - see here  Fräulein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia   _Since the 1970s, Fräulein has come to be used less often, and was banned from official use in Germany in 1972 by the German Minister of the Interior.[1] Nowadays, style guides and dictionaries recommend that all women be addressed as Frau regardless of marital status, particularly in formal situations.[2][3] German dictionary Duden, for instance, notes that women should only be addressed as Fräulein when they specifically request this form of address.[ _

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## SilentButDeadly

> I think one of the other downsides is that if you don't have good cashflow management it is possible to spend the GST you have collected and then find it hard to pay the ATO at the end of the quarter.

  Which begs the question....do tradespeople make for good DIY accountants?

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## ringtail

> Which begs the question....do tradespeople make for good DIY accountants?

  
Nope but their wives do  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  
Cash flow is king. Its different in retail though. You get paid at the point of sale and dont have to wait for accounts to be settled. Problems arise when your materials are on account and your clients haven't paid.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Nope but their wives do  
> Cash flow is king. Its different in retail though. You get paid at the point of sale and dont have to wait for accounts to be settled. Problems arise when your materials are on account and your clients haven't paid.

  
Which explains why there's no such thing as a sole operator... :Tongue:  
Actually, retail is no different.  It is not uncommon for retailers to be on 30, 60 or 90 day accounts with their suppliers.  More than a few of my small business acquaintances have to do such things and it's not uncommon to have punters come in wondering why they have 'no stock'...ie not a full shopping space....and they are far too politic to say "it's because I can't be sure you'll by it if it was here, numbnuts!" 
Retail is the modern day equivalent of farming...the only difference is your profit is a trickle spread out over weeks and months depending on the size of your overdraft.  Farming only has a couple of pay offs a year after stop/start nibbles (or outright gouges) through your overdraft... 
Almost makes you lust the life of a wage slave  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## intertd6

The best thing about GST is if your paying it you know your covering your costs & a little bit more, the bad thing is they are getting 10% of the bit extra quarterly.
regards inter

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## ringtail

> The best thing about GST is if your paying it you know your covering your costs & a little bit more, the bad thing is they are getting 10% of the bit extra quarterly.
> regards inter

  
I get paranoid some quarters when I get a refund but its only because I havent been paid before the quarter ends. All balances out the next quarter, unless I buy myself some toys  :Biggrin:

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## shauck

> Seems my German is a little more current than yours . . .  have been there every year for the last few. This was the the German equivalent to Ms - see here  Fräulein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia   _Since the 1970s, Fräulein has come to be used less often, and was banned from official use in Germany in 1972 by the German Minister of the Interior.[1] Nowadays, style guides and dictionaries recommend that all women be addressed as Frau regardless of marital status, particularly in formal situations.[2][3] German dictionary Duden, for instance, notes that women should only be addressed as Fräulein when they specifically request this form of address.[ _

  There you go. I'm not much of a German then. We weren't brought up speaking German either. (I did learn a bit tho) My parents wanted to identify as Australians. In fact, my Dad would joke about how other Germans would sometimes comment on his being German and he would say, "no, I'm Australian" They never really understood him. Sometimes my mum would get asked what accent is that and she'd say some crazy thing like Mongolian. I know they didn't really like life over there but also, here in Australia, they had to deal with some of the stigmatism attached to being a German. I guess that's why I take issue with being judged based on ethnicity.

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## shauck

I would only do GST if I had to. I don't see any benefit for me being involved in the process of collecting another tax, although I'm pretty good in the bookeeping dept. I do it daily. I keep my tax savings in a sub-account and get the little bit of interest before it's time to give it over at the end of the financial year. Hopefully I get to keep a bit. This is one DIY I don't do. I like my accountant.

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## Johning

> You missed the fine print of my reply  like "if I just go for the lowest price every time" and when you use the selection process i mentioned then you can go for the lowest quote from the quotes that have passed the selection criteria.
> regards inter

  Your original words "I can get the worst of the worst trades any day of the week if I just go for the lowest price every time."   I did read your fine print. I might have misinterpreted it though. If you meant just in the sense of only; I thought that you were saying that If you only take the lowest price then you will get the worst tradesmen. ie only employ the tradesmen who quote the lowest price.  What I now understand you to have meant was If you only use the criterion of the lowest price when selecting a tradesman then you will get the worst tradesmen.  Apologies.  
Regards John

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## Bloss

> I guess that's why I take issue with being judged based on ethnicity.

  As you rightly should take issue! As you might have guessed I have German ancestry too - but we are all mongrels anyway! At some point (even if you believe in creation - I don't) we all came from the same set of cells!  :Cool:

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## johnc

> As you rightly should take issue! As you might have guessed I have German ancestry too - but we are all mongrels anyway! At some point (even if you believe in creation - I don't) we all came from the same set of cells!

  Most of us can't be sure what we really have anyway, the postman or milko might have jumped the fence somewhere in the family past, going right back no one knows and no one is alive to tell. I've also a dab of German blood in the mix as well as a large dash of Anglo Celt which means possibly just about every race in Europe including the Danes and Romans as well as the French as you pass from invader to invader. None of us are very pure in our bloodlines at all.

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## Marc

> Close Bloss. Frauline would be it (Miss). 
> Again, Marc you fail to learn from your previous experiences. Why don't you ask, when being given a quote, if it is GST inclusive? Clear it up straight away. You have nothing to complain about on this matter.

  Miss Shauck, you can call yourself a Fräuline and don't let anyone correct you. You must be cautious when you call other ladies so because they may not like it, but that is a different story.   
As for your other comment, and the rest of the other comments above I find them rather amusing and not surprising.  
In a forum with so may tradesman, to write about honesty of tradesman or lack of it is bound to be unpopular. However this is not a popularity contest but an adult debate about the ORIGIN,CAUSE,REASON for a good job or a bad job in the building industry. So clearly what I have learned or not is irrelevant in this debate. 
The original proposition was that it is all down to being a professional = good, being an amateur DIY = bad
I said and I repeat, I disagree. 
Good job is due to dedication and love for the trade, pride in what you are doing and honesty if you charge for it.
Bad jobs are due to lack of attention to the detail, hating the job and being dishonest. 
Knowledge is also a factor in good versus bad but knowledge is today only a few keystrokes away and no longer a secret with a few exceptions I suppose. 
A Frau or Fräuline for that matter may do a better job at fitting a door than a professional joiner because she really wants the door to hang as it should if it takes her all day. 
My illustration with examples from my own experience that I believe to be substantial due to the amount of trade i contract, is there only to show that there are bad jobs being performed by professionals every day, so bad jobs are *not* the result of poor knowledge/ignorance but mainly due to dishonesty.
Yes the amateur may suffer from a chronic case of disinformation but compensates with dedication and love most of the time because it is for himself. 
The poor attempts made here to turn this personal and to blame the client that is so "stupid and disorganized and demanding and bla bla" are rather pathetic and further proof that what I state is true and hits close to home. 
The reality is that there are good tradesman and there are dishonest one, and there are dedicated DIYselfers and there are dumb DIY as you tube can show for a laugh.
Yet the consequences of a bad job by a DIY is usually on the person performing the bad job, a paid bad job is a problem of much bigger consequences. 
But I suppose that is just stating the obvious.

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## watson

I live with a German lady, and the favourite joke in her family is......... 
Mutti, Mutti, I am having a head ache. 
Mutti replies..........."vich corner is it"  *Now lets get the thread back on topic.........DIY vs Tradies.*    Read more: http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/tr...#ixzz1v1Rvc400

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## Bedford

This is what this forum is about, one hour and fifty seven minutes, and this is the stuff our tradies supply to help.  http://www.renovateforum.com/f200/dr...30/#post880615  *Well done Godzilla73.* :2thumbsup:

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## shauck

> My illustration with examples from my own experience that I believe to be substantial due to the amount of trade i contract, is there only to show that there are bad jobs being performed by professionals every day, so bad jobs are *not* the result of poor knowledge/ignorance but mainly due to dishonesty.

  I agree with a lot of what you say but I don't completely agree that bad work from tradies is primarily due to dishonesty. I'll base this on my own personal observations in the realm of education. I have been trained as a cook. I have qualified as a naturopath, I've done my pre-apprenticeship and been to trade school. Also a number of small certificate courses, business, first aid, etc. These are all pretty different fields from each other. What I've observed is, the standards of many students, regardless of field, is in *my opinion*, pretty average. I don't think this has anything to do with dishonesty. I think only a few really strive to be the best. Sitting in a class of boys who are supposed to be concentrating on their work and are instead surfing the internet, you tube, etc, is the most recent example of what I'm saying. No one in charge is cracking the whip. Get them outside and completing a practical task of whatever variety and they get it done but not with any great enthusiasm. Perhaps that's because they're only young but anyway, I don't think that there's enough going on out in the world based on high standards. I'm not saying this is the only thing happening or the only reason, just that it stands out to me as possibly more relevant to comment on than dishonesty.  
Having said all that, I don't expect perfection from those who do stuff for me (only from myself). I also don't expect an immediate call back or for someone to turn up on time or to not change dates about when things get away from them. Guess what, I'm disappointed a lot less than some, I bet. Country life, makes you a bit easier going.

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## shauck

I was talking to my partner, who is a property manager at one of our local real estate agents. I asked if she had any noticeable trends in negative feedback about tradies she uses. She has pretty extensive experience in this. She said, no, not really. Definitely not dishonesty. Perhaps a couple of tradies that overquote but generally all good at what they do. Not really anything to do with the debate on DIY vs tradie but good to know that tradies around here at least, are pretty much all good.

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## johnc

> I was talking to my partner, who is a property manager at one of our local real estate agents. I asked if she had any noticeable trends in negative feedback about tradies she uses. She has pretty extensive experience in this. She said, no, not really. Definitely not dishonesty. Perhaps a couple of tradies that overquote but generally all good at what they do. Not really anything to do with the debate on DIY vs tradie but good to know that tradies around here at least, are pretty much all good.

  Pretty much the same around here, you get the odd one who is rough, a few very good with the vast bulk doing a decent job for a reasonable price. We all have off days, or jobs that just go wrong, along with days when everything just fall into place. I have always assumed those that complain bitterly about everything and everyone they come across is the problem, and tend to ignore them. There are some very dodgy operators and a few that really take customers to the cleaners but I do think they are a very small number of the total out there. In the main people try to do the right thing, expectations aren't always met and that often is the start of problems with a job.

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## Marc

Which of course is only meaningful as far as the sample of cases you are talking about. 
Real estate maintenance is notoriously shallow and limited to minimal tasks and can not compare to anything resembling renovations or building. Furthermore the tradies will make sure they don't have any complaints since they want repeat work from the same agent. The owner wants cheap work and does not care for quality, only to appease the tenant.    

> I've noticed that some other threads are heating up over the use, and the workmanship, of trades and that the general contention is made that the home owner could have done a better job themselves. 
> I normally weigh in on the electrical questions and arguments as that is my area of expertise, but I have noticed (and participated in  ) similar discussions/arguments/wars over the merits of DIY vs Trade also happens in other areas (such as plumbing, roofing, framing, concreting, brick laying). 
> What are some of the general arguments I have read:  *"Get a Plumber/Electrician/Concreter/etc. is you want the job done right/well"*
> On the face of it, using a suitably trainer person should increase the chances of having a good job done.  However, I'd almost be sure that we all have firsthand accounts of supposedly qualified people getting it wrong (or perhaps, not-quite-right).  *"If you want the job done right, you have to do it yourself"*
> I suppose holds true, as long as the person doing the work DIY is capable.  I have seem many cases of handyman work that is truly awful.  I have seen "renovations" that, in my opinion, devalue the property.  On the other hand, I have also seem some DIY work that is truly wonderful.  In some cases, I'd say that the job is excessively neat.  i.e. it would have been expensive if a tradie did the same job at commercial rates.  *"If you need to ask, you shouldn't be doing it"*
> This one gets up mu nose a bit.  It is a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg - how does one find out if one doesn't ask?  *"Your plumber/electrician/etc. will know"*
> Maybe they will, but how will I be sure unless I can inform myself too?  *My view:*
> Personally, I have seem good and bad jobs done by tradies and DIYers.  To me, it seems that using a tradie will improve your chances of getting a good job done, but it certainly won't guarantee it. 
> I'm a firm believer in 'knowledge'.  I think a better job happens when the tradie and the DIYer have the required knowledge - or at least enough knowledge to understand what they are getting in to before they start.  Even in restricted trades (such as electrical and plumbing) this also holds true.  While the DIYer shouldn't legally be doing restricted work, it is better that they understand what should be done (and why) so that they can check that they are getting a good job done.  Even when getting someone to do work I'm very familiar in, I will often play dumb (which is easy) and ask very basic questions to see what the tradie recommends.  I find it is a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff.  
> ...

  Can the home owner do a better job than the trade? 
Absolutely.
The reason is simple, he can dedicate more time and wants the best job because it is his house and he can do the job at a loss, over engineer it and has the added bonus of been able to say to have done it himself. 
Should the tradie do a better job than the amateur? Of course, that is stating the obvious....in theory. Giving the same set of circumstances the experienced person should do a better job. this does not happen in practice though and the reasons are varied. 
To begin with the tradesman must make a profit and the DIY doesn't. The tradesman can increase his profit with shortcuts and imaginary problems yet the DIY can only increase his cost by using more materials then required or by making a mistake and having to re do it.
The quality of the work is inversely proportional to the amount of work on offer for the tradesman, not so for the DIY. 
There are many more factors that affect the quality of work done in a home, but lack of honesty from tradesman is by far the most important. There are of course cases of ignorant or incompetent tradesman that keep on working because the demand is still there and they charge low, but that is not the norm. Those are the tradesman that work in maintenance for RE agents.
DIYselfers do of course also indulge in bad work, I have purchased a house that suffered for 10 years of DIY abuse and I am working at rectifying this, contracting and also DIMyself. In many yet not all cases I can say I would have done it better myself and that includes electrical and plumbing work.
To add insult to injury, as I work through rectifying many of the dodgy repairs, I uncover much worst dodgy shortcuts and negligence from the "professional builder" that built the house, some I would call criminal, like bolting a base plate for a steel post outside the footings, on some dodgy couple of bricks because the footings have been put in the wrong place.  
The defensive and offensive replies in this thread are hilarious yet do not offer an answer to the questions posed at the beginning.

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## intertd6

> Can the home owner do a better job than the trade? 
> Absolutely. 
> The reason is simple, he can dedicate more time and wants the best job because it is his house and he can do the job at a loss, over engineer it and has the added bonus of been able to say to have done it himself. 
> Should the tradie do a better job than the amateur? Of course, that is stating the obvious....in theory. Giving the same set of circumstances the experienced person should do a better job. this does not happen in practice though and the reasons are varied. 
> To begin with the tradesman must make a profit and the DIY doesn't. The tradesman can increase his profit with shortcuts and imaginary problems yet the DIY can only increase his cost by using more materials then required or by making a mistake and having to re do it.
> The quality of the work is inversely proportional to the amount of work on offer for the tradesman, not so for the DIY. 
> There are many more factors that affect the quality of work done in a home, but lack of honesty from tradesman is by far the most important. There are of course cases of ignorant or incompetent tradesman that keep on working because the demand is still there and they charge low, but that is not the norm. Those are the tradesman that work in maintenance for RE agents.
> DIYselfers do of course also indulge in bad work, I have purchased a house that suffered for 10 years of DIY abuse and I am working at rectifying this, contracting and also DIMyself. In many yet not all cases I can say I would have done it better myself and that includes electrical and plumbing work.
> To add insult to injury, as I work through rectifying many of the dodgy repairs, I uncover much worst dodgy shortcuts and negligence from the "professional builder" that built the house, some I would call criminal, like bolting a base plate for a steel post outside the footings, on some dodgy couple of bricks because the footings have been put in the wrong place.  
> The defensive and offensive replies in this thread are hilarious yet do not offer an answer to the questions posed at the beginning.

  What is really hilarious is someone off the street thinking they can do it better than anybody else, show us your work after you have completed 4 years training as an apprentice, then 10 years after that you might start to produce quailty work after making every mistake you could ever consider, me and every other tradie has been there & still make a stuff up on occasion & if your of good character nobody pays for your own stuff ups.
regards inter

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## autogenous

Howard raised the minimum GST registration to $70000 per year so its quite common for tradies to talk non-GST prices.   
In fact builders talk exGST pricing for this reason. Quite a few tradies are not registered for GST so they may not be talking incGST.  
Its time for tax reform. GST is not globally competitive. GST is a complete complex disaster.  Some tradies have $50000 GST outstanding and climbing which to some degree is their fault. At the end of the day if the economy is slow and they are only working 3 days a week they dip into the GST to feed the kids. Maybe thats why Howard raised the minimum GST registration to $70000 which is gross profit including superannuation and insurances.

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## Overkill

Wow, I go away for 3 weeks and somebody lobs a a hand grenade, or a whole box of grenades for that matter into the forum! it just doesn't seem the same place it used to be... 
In my admittedly small DIY reno experience, I have had 2 good tilers, 1 freaking excellent chippy, 6 woeful plumbers and one dangerous electrician (to qualify as dangerous, he drilled thu a wall and managed to hit a hot water pipe, then wired a GPO and a fluro light in *series* so that the light would only operate when an appliance was plugged in!) That's not a statistically large sample but there must be some reason I can't find a plumber that matches up to basic expectations. Rather than wasting time venting over the perceived incompetence of DIYers or the dishonesty of tradies (both of which will never go away), we should move on to sorting out the good & bad operators.  
There are so many posts saying something like "ask friends for recommendations" but most of your friends will only have used one or two tradies in any given area and can at best recommend the least worst in their limited experience. I also notice that almost nobody on the forum names names, either good or bad. What would be really helpful is an online rating system that is  proof against bogus input from vendors a biassed feedback from clients. That's a tall order but if the site moderators can come up with something that works then I would pay good money for reliable recommendations.

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## autogenous

Being a tradie is as much whether you can make a living out of doing what your doing.  There's plenty of tradies that could do other trades but doing it all fast enough to make a quid is another thing.  There are general public that can pull off a passable job; some even do a good job with time. 
For many people its not worth financially doing a job especially tool hire on things like brick paving or you have business where you just work instead. 
I did a stone quote for a bloke not so long ago. His son inlaw had taken long service leave to help him do the brickwork extension on his house. He damaged his arm and can no longer pick his kids up above his elbow. I have had more than one call requesting to finish a job as the husband is in traction in hospital; minus $5 on that one. 
One things for sure if you do a job that is average or second grade you have just devalued your house or you could kill someone. How many floor tiling, render disasters have you seen or walk in on to buy a house? Buggering $4000 worth of polished porcelein. Not saving.   
Building is fun. Im experimenting with a driveway topping now, cement dado marble next but Id never consider trying to make a dollar out of it. Im messing with retardants etc but it could be a 150m2 driveway $1000 disaster that has to be ripped up. That will cost me just under $10000 and I have the tools and machinery. 
After picking up heavy things for 20 years the doctor sent me for a bum movie.  I got more problems than Homer Simpson the canon ball catcher.

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## Marc

> What is really hilarious is someone off the street thinking they can do it better than anybody else, show us your work after you have completed 4 years training as an apprentice, then 10 years after that you might start to produce quailty work after making every mistake you could ever consider, me and every other tradie has been there & still make a stuff up on occasion & if your of good character nobody pays for your own stuff ups.
> regards inter

  Once more off the subject completely. 
Anyone with any sense would agree that a person that had formal training and a reasonable amount of experience would run circles around any DIYer, yet that is not the point.
It is not about denigrating the tradesman nor devaluing his or her ability to do a job in general. 
The point is the sad reality me and some others have described. Namely, poor quality work from experienced and knowledgeable people who do this for a living. The live wire left inside a hole in the brickwork, the footing off the post by 300mm, the bent pipes, the undersized bearers, the gutter that flows the wrong way the floor that is tilted by one inch in a room 3x3 and I can write a list as long as my two arms extended. Faced with such array of poor quality work, any DIYer scratches his hed and says "I can do better".
That is a fact. 
What is debatable is *why* this happens not if it happens.
Some of the answers have come "to the rescue" (white horse and shining armor) insinuating that perhaps my ongoing run of poor work is due to some flaws in my character or perhaps that I only take the cheapest and nastiest possible price. :Annoyed: 
Not so. I am experienced enough not to take the cheapest nor the highest quote ever. Yet think about it, even if that is the case,  why should an experienced tradesman do a job so bad that the ACCC forces him to rectify with menaces of taking his license away? Who's fault is it? Mine? Really? 
The comments about GST in the previous post are strange to say the least.
A quote to the consumer must be GST inclusive. Fact.
A tradesman cna choose not to register for GST if he is under the threshold. BUT. He can certainly NOT charge GST and pocket it.
A person that is not registered for GST would quote a job say $1000 but can not collect or charge GST
A person registered for GST would quote the same job in the exact same circumstances $1100 GST inclusive.
One can not quote $1000 and then when it comes to collect say that it is plus GST unless it is cash, that is illegal. 
The above problems are in my view the trademarks of dishonesty.
The ATO is catching up though. Expenses are now deemed to produce a certain level of profit by default. No more $120,000 expenses and $15,000 profit.   

> *Record keeping for small business*                             *If you are not registered for GST* 
>     If your business is not required to be registered for GST and you have chosen not to register, you:   don't collect GST on your sales or claim GST  credits on your purchases. Your business issues normal invoices - it  must not issue tax invoices. Normal invoices don't include the words  'tax invoice' or indicate that the invoiced amount includes GST can claim the full cost of your business purchases (including any GST) as a tax deduction on your tax return. 
>     If you receive an invoice for goods or services you have purchased  from someone who is not registered or required to be registered for GST,  it is not a tax invoice and you cannot claim a GST credit for the GST  included in the price of those goods or services.   Remember to monitor your business'  turnover - if it appears likely to exceed the GST registration turnover  threshold of $75,000 ($150,000 for non-profit organisations), you must  register for GST within 21 days.     For more information, refer to:   GST for small business (NAT 3014) How to set out tax invoices and invoices (NAT 11675).

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## SilentButDeadly

> The point is the sad reality me and some others have described. Namely, poor quality work from experienced and knowledgeable people who do this for a living. The live wire left inside a hole in the brickwork, the footing off the post by 300mm, the bent pipes, the undersized bearers, the gutter that flows the wrong way the floor that is tilted by one inch in a room 3x3 and I can write a list as long as my two arms extended. Faced with such array of poor quality work, any DIYer scratches his hed and says "I can do better".
> That is a fact. 
> What is debatable is *why* this happens...

  Oh that! 
That's easy.  Tradespeople are just as stupid and as human as their clients.   
Equally they can be just as brilliant and talented.   
However, being human you can never be quite sure which one either side is going to get at any particular point in time... 
Of course, being human, the exchange of monies doesn't ensure that the ledger always falls on the brilliant and talented side of the ledger...for either party.

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## intertd6

There is a saying in the building industry when managing building projects, "if you think your going to come to work & not going to have any problems during the day, your going to go home terribly disappointed" So basically if you dont get over it, move on & learn from those days (which can be every day) some can become very bitter & twisted
regards inter

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## William2check

An interesting story.My dentist,after stuffing my mouth with every conceivable peice of wadding prior to performing some type of act upon me ask for my advice as to how he could Diy a deck/pergola. I removed all the apparati and walked out saying,"you build your own pergola,I fix my own teeth'!!!

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