# Forum Home Renovation Heating & Cooling  Please check my Ducted Air Cond homework

## Make it work

My old old Carrier 6hp ducted system dropped its lunch a short while ago and it is time it was replaced. 
So far I have narrowed it down to a Daikin inverter 15KW cool (FDYQ160KAV1) and Actron Air 17.5KW cool ESP (SRD181C).
The price so far is almost equal with the Daikin a few bucks cheaper but not by much and I am not finished shopping for price quite yet.
So, I think that it comes down to the techo stuff and it looks like the Actron has the goods over the Daikin.
From what I have read here and elsewhere, the Daikin of today is not the same reliable unit as the Daikin of the past, so those who say they have had a Daikin for 10 years with no sign of problems are right, but that does not necessarily mean that the Daikin you buy today will do the same.
Daikin told me today that their compressors are made in China along with fan motors and electronics, the outdoor coil is made in Thailand and the indoor one is made here.
Actron told me their compressor is made in the USA by the largest manufacturer of compressors in the world, fan motors are made in Germany and here and they own the electronics company that makes all their controllers. Coils are Australian made and all is put together in a new facility in Bella Vista near Baulkham Hills, so spare parts will not be a problem.
The temperature increments on the Daikin controller is 1 degree C, the Actron goes to 0.5 degree C, that has to be good.
The Actron has integrated zoning standard, the Daikin has not.
The Daikin inverter winds down to about 40% of full capacity once it reaches the set temp, the Actron can wind down to 10% of full capacity and that has to mean savings on the power bills, right?
Is there anything else that I should compare or is the Actron ESP the way to go for me?
Any thoughts, opinions or information is greatly appreciated.
And if anyone can offer install services in Western Sydney, I would like to hear from you. 
Thanks

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## AIRMAN

Go the Actron no questions in my mind, it's compressor is much better, it is a digital scroll and as you said it can go down to 10% capacity, also they are assembled is Sydney so the quality control and quality of work should be better.

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## Make it work

Thanks Airman, but I thought you would say that having read what you have written previously. 
Your previous comments got me rethinking my Daikin opinion in the first place.

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## GraemeCook

> The Daikin inverter winds down to about 40% of full capacity once it reaches the set temp, the Actron can wind down to 10% of full capacity and that has to mean savings on the power bills, right?

  
The real advantage of inverters is comfort rather than the minor saving in electricity.   It eliminates that blast of cold air when it switches on repeatedly, and the Actron seems to have the better inverter facility. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## Timmo

> The real advantage of inverters is comfort rather than the minor saving in electricity.   It eliminates that blast of cold air when it switches on repeatedly, and the Actron seems to have the better inverter facility. 
> Cheers 
> Graeme

  The Actron isn't technically an inverter. They use a digital scroll which loads and unloads as required, meaning no solid state inverter boards to go pop in a few years time. 
The actron is also put together better, the outdoor unit has weather louvres which not only make it look better - no unsightly coils showing but it protects the unit better. 
In saying that I sell quite a few of each.

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## chuth77

What sort of cost are you looking at for the system? I'll be looking for one soon!

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## Make it work

Hi Chuth,
I am yet to settle on one quote, but the prices I have so far are... 
$8435 for the Actron (installed) from supplier "A"
$8575 for the Daikin (installed) from the same supplier. 
$8000 for the Daikin (installed) from supplier "B"
$5300 for the Daikin (supply only) from the same supplier. 
I am yet to get a supply only price for the Actron but they told me that they would only supply to a person who is a licensed refrigration mechanic. 
I want to get some more quotes but at this time of year all air conditioning companies are on holiday so meantime, we are feeling the heat, and it sucks...

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## AIRMAN

Is it just a straight swap or are you changing/replacing duct work and zones?

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## Make it work

Pretty much a straight swap, but adding 4 zone motors to my previously unzoned system. 
Everyone said the copper needs to be replaced, the size is too big and the existing oil is not compatible with the new, easier and cheaper to replace it. 
Happy New year to all and thanks for the replies so far. Keep them coming.

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## AIRMAN

So I'm guessing you opted for the Actron Zones to take full advantage of the system rather than using a 3rd party zones system? 
Daikin also do a intergrated zone system which is about $450 more that the standard controller, you then need the zones motors at about $65 a pop. 
Copper would need to be changed, the unit you a looking at is 410a, it operates at about 50% higher pressure than R22 and on a synthetic oil not a mineral oil. 
Price for supply only seems about right, I don't have my Actron price list at home but I have a Accent one and they are normally only a bit cheaper. A 17Kw single on that is about $4100 + gst, plus you will need both new supply air and return air plenums. Installed price may be a bit high but without seeing the job I can't really commnet.

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## Make it work

The integrated zoning is more the icing on the cake rather than the main reason. Probably the main reason I would choose Actron is the country of manufacture of the major components like the compressor, coils, fan motors and the electronics. 
I am also impressed with the finish of the outdoor unit. It looks better than some of the refrigators I have seen at Harvey Norman.  
But there is still a lot of uncertainty with a major purchase like this, its not like you can test drive it like you can a car and yet you keep it longer than the average car, but a bad experience could cost as much.

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## Townsville Lad

Alan 
We are looking at a ducted system for our house in Nth Qld.  Sounds like the way is the Actron....  I like the inverter idea as it saves on the elect costs. Heating up here is not really an issue....  Thanks for the info on the post. 
Pegards 
Phill

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## Make it work

No worries Phil, I'm glad to see the homework I have done is helping others with this difficult and confusing decision.  
Just to add, we wanted to make sure that the outdoor unit is not going to be too noisy so we had a look at a large SRD230 ESP unit at a display home on the weekend. It was set to 17deg C so it was working flat out, but the outdoor unit was not noisy at all, even standing right near it. 
We are ordering our Actron SRD181 ESP system tomorrow, we got a good quote for the unit to be supplied and fitted to our existing ducts (which were replaced recently) and custom made outlets. The quote incluced all electrical, all copper and plumbing, 2 controllers & 4 Actron 10" zone motors. All this and a price about $600 cheaper than the nearest quote which did not include a second controller and electrical work. 
Now lets hope they can get it in ASAP, looks like more hot days coming this week. 
I'll post the progress and my evaluation of the system once it is installed and I have had a good play with it.

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## Ronaldo451

Alan,
I am looking at a similar size Actron unit, doing as much of the prep/install myself as possible and so am very interested in your observations, costs and suggestions. What was the base price for the unit and accessories?

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## tricky4000

Hey guys,
Just because a product is made is Australia it doesn't mean it is any good.  Yes, Daiken is a Chinese manufactured product and as most would agree, they generally use cheaper quality parts to bring the prices down.  
I would go for a Mitsubishi Electric.  They are made in Japan.  They have a different outlook in Japan when it comes to quality and reliablity.  Years ago I used to work for Toyota here in Australia.  Toyota Aust had a 3% defect rate on the production of their vehicles...Japan's equivalent production factory, 0.2% defect.  I know cars are different to ACs...but what I am trying to outline here is the production quality.  Just because it is Australian, it doesn't mean it is the bees knees...
Tricks

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## Make it work

> Hey guys,
> Just because a product is made is Australia it doesn't mean it is any good. Tricks

  I know what you mean about Aussie made products, but I looked at Mitsubishi and was told that they only had one model made in Japan and it was not an inverter and was too big for our house, so it was out, maybe I was not well advised. 
My own research narrowed it down to Daikin or Actron Air and for all the reasons detailed above, Actron Air won out for me. We have another AC company who has come in with a late quote that is worth looking at so we have not ordered as yet but it has now come down to price and install date, the brand and model are chosen. 
As for japanese cars, the ones made in Japan are FAR superior than those made elsewhere, I have had 7 Japanese made Honda's (6 Accords and 1 Legend which I still have) and they have been fantastic cars, designed and built better than any car I have ever had, including my '95 Porsche 911 (my other car). 
Ronaldo - Actron do not sell to the public and I was not able to get a supply only price from anyone but if you get a local Actron supplier to work with you and allow you to install ductwork, outlets, return air grill and the like, you are bound to save some money, be careful that they don't end up charging you for it anyway, so get a few quotes and be aware of the cost of a complete install. 
I'll keep you all updated as it all comes together, hopefully sooner than later.

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## Make it work

This is for anyone interested in how this story goes on. 
No surprise but we went with the Actron ESP (SRD181C) but not with any of the suppliers who quoted (they just could not do it quickly enough at this time of year). I found a contact who supplied the equipment for a good competitive price. 
The equipment we bought seems to be excellent quality and the technical help given by Actron so far has been nothing short of magnificent. 
We (Wonder Wife & I) placed the outdoor unit on a newly poured slab, ran the pair copper, installed the controller and a remote sensor and ran the cables for them and a sparky I know did the 240V stuff. 
My brother & I placed the indoor unit, in the roof and suspended it. Then I went about installing zone motors, condensate drains and redoing the ducting layout a little. I did most of the roof work at night when it was cooler, even doing an all night shift with quiet work so as not to disturb neighbours or family. 
Now I am waiting for the a contractor to come along and silver solder the copper to the units, evacuate the new pipework and get it going (booked for 27th Jan). 
I should end up saving nearly $1000 doing it this way. It has taken less than a week and I have done a few things along the way that no aircon company would do, like repoint & paint the brickwork behind the outdoor unit. 
I'll let you all know if I am happy with the choice of unit and install once I have tested it out but till then, I am enjoying a couple of cooler days here in Sydney .......

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## Make it work

The Actron system has been installed since 27/1/09. 
It held the temperature to the set temp (26C) even when it hit 43C outside (Black Saturday) and 41C on the next day, but as you would expect, it was working at 100% to do that. 
In Feb & March, we had very humid weather, the system was working brilliantly. The set temp was only slightly lower than the outside temp and the unit ticked over at low capacity keeping the comfort level nice & high. 
As it cooled down, we first used the AC on heat in mid May. I was amazed by how quickly the house warmed up to the set temp of 20C. 
I now use the system in continous fan mode in heat, with a gas heater in the family room where the return air is so the system brings the house to temp and then the gas Quasar seems to hold it there. 
I know it has only been a short time and I can't brag about the reliability of the system but it has done all we expected. 
The only negative is the outdoor unit is not as quiet as we had hoped, especially when in low capacity mode. It seems to build up pressure and release it rather than operate at constant low RPM, it makes a sound that is not constant so is more noticable than a constant sound. My neighbours have not said anything but then they did not say anything about the old Kenworth, I mean Carrier system

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## rrobor

Well as an unbiased observer I can tell you about the difference between microwaves. The Inverter uses semiconductor power switches to create their desired resultant Whilst the old chugalong uses a transformer. When things go wrong, the invertor virtually S'es its self and you need a kit of bits as long as your arm, The conventional doesnt fault in this stage. Well S happens but its rare. So the Inverter, Its cheaper to start with, its more efficient but its failure rate is 99% higher in that section.Is this the same in your situation, I dont know but Id take bets on it it is.

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## tricky4000

Hey Allan,
Where do you have the external unit mounted?  It is attached to the wall of your house?  Mine is, and it is an old timber house and you can hear/feel the hum of the invertor unit when its running.  I spoke with the AC people and they said they can get rid of that if we detach it from the house and put it on steel stilts concreted into the ground and then a small chain attached to the house to stop it from toppling over.  I'm keen to do that one day. Maybe this is the case with yours?
Tricks

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## AIRMAN

The noise you are hearing in the Actron digital scroll unit is the solinoid that controls the compressor cycles turning on and off, this is how they control the capacity. Basically the compressor keeps running but the scoll plates are disengaged from the motor so there is very little load on it, then when the solinoid deenergises the motor in the compressor reengages with the scroll. The rate at which this solinoid turns on and off determines the capacity. So unlike a standard scroll that just has two noises, on or off, the digital scroll will produce a diferent noise dependant on what capacity it is running at. 
You can't stop this noise unless you want to put a jacket on the compressor, however they may allready have one. 
You can stop vibration by using some good isolating springs or waffle pad.

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## Make it work

The outdoor unit is mounted on a slab adjacent to a brick wall which is the outside of the dining room fireplace. The rest of the house is well insulated weatherboard. It is bolted down with four 12mm X 75mm gal hex screwbolts, it aint goin nowhere... 
It is just a little louder than I expected, especially in the quiet of the evening, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that this noise is bugging me, far from it, I can hardly hear it from inside and I don't know if it can even be heard from inside my neighbour's house.  
I just do not want to get a letter from the council advising that there is any breach of noise rules. 
Thanks AIRMAN, your explaination of how the Actron digital scroll compressor functions was brilliant, the compressor is already jacketed but I wonder if there is any more that can be done. I might call Actron soon to find out what they think...

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## Ronaldo451

AIRMAN, it was suggested to me that Accent also has digital scrolling with a better control system and as such is a good, Australian made alternative to Actron to consider. Have you had any press on Accent? Your advice as always is much appreciated.

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## AIRMAN

Accent have E3 units (I think thats what they call them), they use the same digital scroll as only Copeland make them. 
Can't really comment on the controls side of it but I guess they could have different solinoids and such. The one thing I will say about Accent is that they copied Actrons design of condensing unit (louvres running all down the sides) and from what I have seen their production quality isn't as good. I'm not saying it's bad but there are small detail like extra washers and rubber mounts that you see on Actron units but not on Accent. Also I belive Accent are a bit cheaper.

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## Make it work

I have not heard of Accent but I can say this.  
Actron staff really impressed me by the way they answered all my questions, they did not bag any other brand but confidently told me the benefits of their product. I felt like they know their stuff. 
I was also quite surprised that the company resisted the temptation to take it's production overseas but instead chose to invest huge amounts in a manufacturing plant in Bella Vista in Sydney. By what I can see they are producing a terrific product with much local content. 
When I saw the product installed in a display house I was very impressed with the build quality and I am still very happy with my choice. 
I chose because of the product and it's features but everything else was good too.

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## exotiic

One major point to remember with the great quality systems we all choose to install and use. A system is only as strong as its weakest point. And it can be a very expensive investment if the weakest points drag the system performance and efficiency down.  
In saying such, ensure that the ducting used is of high enough quality, has a high enough insulated rating, is installed and sized correctly. On many occasions do you see fantastic units struggling or displaying a lack of efficiency due to inadequate air flow routing and direction.

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## psm

Guys, 
New to the forum but Alan your homework has certainly helped. I am leaning towards Actron. Interestingly my recent two quotes for supply and installation from supplier A & B have been significantly higher than yours just nine months ago. i believe the SRD181C has been replaced with SRD175C. Just wondering?? 
PSM

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## exotiic

PSM, 
The SRD175 is indeed the replacement for the SRD181 which is slightly smaller in capacity. In regards to pricing, there have actually been 2 price increases from Actron since the replacement of the unit so that could partly weigh into your quote increases. 
Also, don't forget that duct and fitting quality can play a part in cost also, as well as the design of the system including amount of outlets and zones. Comparing apples with apples isn't always what it seems to be!

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## psm

exottic, 
I have been qouted around 12K for SRD175 for outdoor unit SRV175E ESP Plus for 5 zones 9 outlets from two different supplier/installers, both claiming quality fittings and installation warranty for 5 years. Is this reasonable.  
psm

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## exotiic

PSM,  
The ESP plus SRV175 model is actually more advance than the digital SRD175 model which allows airflow control to match the refrigeration flow and zone control to allow for more precise economical use of the unit. In short it allows you to operate one room at a time if desired by reducing the airflow and refrigerant flow in the system. The system can cost about $1000 more than the standard digital SRD unit. 
The 5 zones to take advantage of the ESP plus model couple with the unit would leave me to believe, without seeing the job of course that the prices are relatively fair and within the ballpark for a quality unit and fittings (minimum R1 ducting and aluminium grilles Australian made).

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## psm

Exotiic, 
Could i request help from you on a recommended installer, one who would use quality fittings. 
regards
psm

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## exotiic

You have mail PSM.

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## Make it work

You have mail PSM.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

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