# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  changing tap washers on hot water taps

## jackiew

Hopefully this isn't too dumb a question . 
I want to change the tap washers on my hot water taps.  I've done this before in my house in England and turned the hotwater off where it exited the hot water tank then just ran the surplus out of the pipes. 
My hot water tank in the new house sits in the laundry.  It is electrically heated and large enough to hold a dead body or two.  So far I haven't been able to find anything that looks like a tap associated with it ( I've even been under the house among the spiders and inspected the pipework ).    
Do I have to run off a whole tank full of water ( or at least enough until the level in the tank is below the top of the pipe to the tap .. a lot of water )  or am I just not looking hard enough for somewhere to turn the hot water off, or  .......:confused:

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## jamesfisher

I found that turning the external cold water tap into the house off also stopped hot water comming out of the main tank. 
Quite easy to try - turn main supply off and run the cold tap for 10-15 seconds and see if it stops - mine did. 
Heaters here in AUS seem to be mains pressured and only give water out when there is mains pressure in.  Maybe a plumber can explain why (ie how the valve works etc). 
Came over over 2 years ago and still can't get used to the fact I'm not allowed to change sockets or do plumbing even though I did a complete house re-wite in the UK!! 
James.

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## jackiew

thanks,  i'll try turning off the mains when I get home and see what happens. 
I agree it is a bit of a shock to the system to find that I'm not even supposed to change a light fitting.   In UK  I've put in two way switching, moved light switches from one wall to another, put in extra sockets etc etc.   
When I rented my uk house out I had to have a full electrical check on the house and it wasn't my wiring that failed it was the stuff done by a regular electrician!!! 
I would be interested to know whether the electrocution/electrical house fire rates differ between here and the uk.   
Does having lots of info on wiring readily and cheaply available ( i.e. leaflets given away by the equivalent of bunnings ) reduce the risk of electrocution/electrical fires because people understand more of what they are doing or does it increase it because more people are tempted to "have a go"? 
Ditto plumbing ... do people secretly do their own plumbing anyway without being able to find out what they are doing wrong? 
I have both plumbing and electrical work needing doing to my house and so far asking around for recommendations of tradesmen has drawn a blank.    The plumber who "repaired" my leaking toilet did a complete bodge job ( I currently have a bowl sat under the weeping join between pan and outlet point ) because I can't face ringing round plumbers to remove the toilet pan fit a new gasket and replace the pan - a job which I'm quite capable of doing myself  :Redface: (

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## Sir Stinkalot

I tried to change over some light fittings on the weekend. I have never really felt comfortable with electricity as it is so dangerous and there isn't any tell tale signs that you have done anything wrong. After speaking with a friend of the family who was previously an electrician I decided to give it a shot after being told it was simply a matter of swapping over the fixtures. 
Well after plenty of cursing on the weekend I ended up having the outside light switch turning on the kitchen, but only if the laundry light switch was on that turned on the toilet at the same time. Getting very frustrated I called it a day and got the electrician in on Monday to sort it out. As it turns out our lights didn't have an earth. The electrician was able to sort out the sequence of switches without a problem but was dumbstruck at how I didn't kill myself as I had managed to make the entire light fitting active. There were multiple occasions where I had touched the fittings so it must have just been luck that I didn't get zapped. What was really scary was there were a few fittings that I changed that worked well with the correct switches .... I would have walked away thinking all was well except that the fixtures themselves were live. 
3.5 hours later of Mr Electricians time I now have new light fittings and it is safe ... I really should have called in the sparkie to start off with and now I will in the future. I do have to move a garden tap shortly ..... but hey anybody can do their own plumbing .... right?

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## jackiew

I'm still trying to work out what building work  is legal to do and what isn't legal to do. 
Judging by the notices in bunnings even changing a light switch plate seems to be illegal ( I notice that nothing comes with helpful diagrams telling you how to wire it - just in case you were feeling tempted ). 
Having lived in a house where I accidentally found out that you had to remove two fuses to disable one power point ( i.e. it was still live when only one of the fuses was removed ) .. someone had wired the plug into both the upstairs and downstairs rings .. there can be disadvantages in it being open slather on doing your own wiring. 
Plumbing regs confuse me a bit.   I'm used to the idea that a roofer or a builder does guttering and downpipes and the plumber who does your central heating ( normally hydronic ) will also happily put in a toilet or change your taps.  Here the trade demaration lines seem to be split differently.   Am I allowed to fit my own guttering or not?   Can I rip out the toilet pan and put in a new one or not?  I'm not talking about putting a completely new toilet in where there has never been one before?   I've been assuming that I'm allowed to change my own tap washers but a post on another thread seems to imply that is illegal in NSW!!!! 
I'm really quite a law-abiding soul ( though keeping to the speed limit on my m/bike can cause some mental anguish ) so if anyone can point me at a definitive link on what consitutes legal and illegal home plumbing / electrical I would be very grateful. 
cheers, Jackie

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## Jacksin

Im in Adelaide and here its fairly straight forward, but I am a little confused jackiew. 
If your hot water unit is mains pressure it should have an isolation valve (stopcock) near the heater cold water inlet, if its low pressure you may have a header tank (that makes the system work by displacement) in the roof and the isolation stopcock could be near that. Either way shutting off your water mains stopcock at the meter, will stop the water. 
If it is a low pressure unit you will have to drain off the header tank and then go for it.
Try using Doust tap jumpers (from WA and available at Bunnings) I have found them to be fool proof in stopping drips.

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## Dean

I think it comes down to the fact that if you do your own eletrical/plumbing etc and then something goes wrong, your insurance wont cover you? 
Changing your own tap washers shouldn't be a problem. 
If there is a problem when you turn the mains water back on, call someone  :Smilie:  
When I bought this house that was built in the 70's, all the electrical outlet sockets needed changing... plugs not sticking in etc. I did several by myself after seeing an electrician change one while he was here previously on another job. It's not rocket science, but you still have to be careful with anything electrical.  
Make sure your house has a working safety switch installed above anything else. Might come in handy if you zap yourself. All new houses must have them installed, but I dont think that requirement etends to older houses (unless they are being rented etc), but I might be wrong there?

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## Bob Willson

Who gives a Sh@t what the law says. If you can do it then you can do it. It really is mostly a very simple thing to change a light switch or put in an extra power point. If I feel at all uncomfortable, I do the work, then I call in a Sparky to check it out.  
Plumbing is almost entirely a no brainer. The only problem areas that might be encountered are when plumbing and electrical intersect.

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## Guy

Dont get me going down this path; i am currently a Handyman/ cabinetmaker after being retrenched 2 years ago from the telecoms business. I am from the UK where I did my city and guilds and am an electrician over there; I also did a OND, HND in electrical and electronic engineering. 
However after moving here and trying to get my Vic electricians licence I eventually gave up after all the bullsh*t they wanted me to do e.g.:
Do an apprentiship for 4 years
Got to school for 4 years 
Then only then could I get a licence if I work for another sparky for 3 years, for god sake i am 38 now are they living in cuckoo land in the Office Chief Electrical inspector.
I ask the question to a senior manager there about why do all hardware store sell electrical gear and was told that it is not illegal at this stage but they are planning to ban all hardware store selling electrical part and only wholesalers will be able to. He also said the reason they can sell it is so that people who know what they are doing can do there own installs.
After working as a electrician for 10 years in the UK do they think that im not suitably qualified, I understand AS3000 and have made up my own drawing on how here in Aus we use  Live switching for the light circuits, ie usually only a red and white wire is located at the switch rather than all the wires, saves on copper.
I thought this was rather contradictory.
In my own house I do my own electrical and plumbing works but refuse to do for anyone else, my neighbour is an insurance assessor and he has mentioned that when he goes to the after effects of a house fire they look at how the electrical installs have been done, if they are thrown in roughly then they know the electrician installed it, if neat then the home handyman did it and they will question him whether he did it or not. 
As to plumbing the European system of having a hot water tank and an airing cupboard is so much more logical than the antiquated mains pressure systems used here. We are living in most states with water restrictions and get the govt beurcrats asking us to save water; we probably waste about 10 litres of water waiting for the hot water to come out of the tap. If a system was to be employed where the hot water was run around in a ring where the water was continually hot by using a small pump and a single tank with a water inlet to top up the tank and a hot out to the ring and a return we could save millions of liters of water each year in this country.
Maybe I should write something up and go see the dicks in office and suggest this along with all new houses should have a 2000 ltr underground water tank for storm run off via a trap to collect the rubbish, which could be used for toilets and external watering.
Enough of my ramblings

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## Barry_White

Is this the U.K. bitch forum.  
We Aussies like it here and put up with the rules. So I think all our friends from U.K. should put up with them also. 
Just my .02c worth

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## silentC

Interesting topic. I think you'll find that officially most people here recommend that you get a licensed tradesman in to do any electrical or plumbing work and that you don't try to do it yourself. Particularly since we don't know you or what you're capable of. 
At the end of the day, if you do it yourself, you wear the risk. No-one can stop you. Bunnings don't give out wiring advice because a) you shouldn't be buying electrical gear if you don't know how to wire it up and b) because if they do, they leave themselves wide open to a law suit. I don't blame them, I wouldn't do it either. 
Let's make this clear: electricity *will* kill you. It doesn't take prisoners. If you don't know what you are doing, you are foolish to play with it. Having said that, it's not rocket science. 
What they do in the UK is totally irrelevant here. Infact, it surprises me to hear what you ARE allowed to do over there. Makes me wonder how the population got so large. I wonder how easy it would be for an Australian plumber or electrician to get a license over there. By the sounds of it, there's probably little demand for them anyway, seeing as everyone is doing their own. 
Guy, I have personally tried the system of circulating water to keep it hot in the pipes. Yes, you save water but watch what it does to your power bill. The water comes back cold and has to be heated up again, doesn't it? This is especially a trap if you have a double-element heater with the top one wired to standard rate. If you're on off-peak only, you might find you run out of hot water quickly.

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## gatiep

Jackiew and Guy 
May I suggest that u take a course in 'passing the buck' 
In Oz you only take 'limited' responsibility if you have a piece of paper to cover you, known as a license. I know some other countries are different, as is the one I originate from ( not the UK) , but just trust me....you are in Australia now......either you conform or cop it. 
I don't know how long u have been here, but I asked questions like you for about 5 years. After that I finally realised that I am the new boy on the block, and have to conform wether I like it or not. 
The sooner you accept the system, even if you think it is daft....the sooner you can discontinue your ulcer medicine and enjoy this great country. 
I learnt the hard way.
Cya
Joe

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## silentC

Joe, you make us sound like a bunch of backside-coverers  :Wink:  
On the subject of liability, at least in NSW, contractors are required to provide warranty for all the work they do. The way it is supposed to work is that when a contractor undertakes a job, he provides a contract and agrees to warrant the work for 10 years. This means if anything he does screws up in that time, they have to make it good. In practice, it's the builder who bears the burden and this is putting a lot of people out of business because it requires them to have huge amounts of liability insurance. This extends to owner/builder works as well, although in this case the warranty is 7 years. 
If you do work on your house as an owner/builder, and then sell within 7 years, you have to provide warranty insurance to the new owner. This means that if anything screws up, the insurance company pays to fix it and then chases you for the bill. So if you use a licensed tradesman to do all your work, you keep their details and you in turn chase them. 
The reason for this is to cut back on the shoddy, home handyman jobs that were done in this country over the last few decades and to protect new owners from finding that half of their newly bought house has to be demolished and rebuilt at their own cost.  
So imagine if anybody could wire up a house and then sell it to someone else without such a system in place. If it burns down the next day, who's going to pay?

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## jackiew

Hmm ..... bit bemused why anyone should think that asking what is legal and what is illegal should be taken as a criticism of how things are done here.   I came here by choice and am a firm believer in when in rome do as the romans do.    Unfortunately learning what the romans do ( or in this case the australians ) doesn't come easily - you don't get given a handbook when you step off the plane. 
When you change country and buy a house ( as opposed to rent )  you realise how much people learn about how things work/ are done in their own country by a process of osmosis as they grow up, listen to their parents, relatives,friends, work-mates, watch TV programs, read books. 
Even though I've been here 5 years now having recently bought my house I'm having to have a crash course on changing how I do things, what I call things, what I can and can't do.     Just because its different in the UK doesn't mean its better or that its worse, it just means its different and I've got to learn and understand the differences.      
Just buying paint is totally bemusing, I stand in Bunnings and look at the brands - some I know, some I don't know.  Even when I know the brand the paint is different -  my first reaction was "what the hell is Acrylic paint?" - eventually I worked out its what I would call emulsion.   And then I discover that you have to get paint coloured rather than buying it already coloured - am I allowed to use brand X's colour in brand Y's paint - do I have to pay to get the colour added?   If you've been to the paint shop with your dad and watched and listened these will seem really dumb questions.  If you're used to something different  then you don't know til you ask ( and believe me the staff in Bunnings are really good at looking at me like I'm some kind of moron ).     The vocabulary is totally different too and I don't seem to have an appropriate dictionary.     I wouldn't use acrylic paint on woodwork back home, especially exterior woodwork but this seems to be the norm here .. I don't know why we use oil based paint and you guys don't for woodwork ... is it becuase its cheaper, because it dries quicker, because its made differently here, because your climate is different and it copes better with heat ?    So I have to make decisions with not enough info.    I don't want to break the law but I don't have enough knowledge to know what the law is.   I don't want to use methods and materials that are appropriate in a damp, cold, termite free environment when there are better methods and materials for my new locality. 
So please bear with the dumb questions and don't assume I'm bagging the way things are done.

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## Pulpo

If one does a search on this BB you will find numerous postings in regard to our antiquated rules. 
When at Bunnies I was buying some electrical supplies and asked an employee in the electrical department who happen to be a qualified [apparently their policy to hire qualify trades staff], for some advice who was extremely helpful and informative.  
He was no doubt aware I should not have been doing the task. 
It is disappointing that no serious DIY material is not printed for all to be informed. 
As for the suggestion that there is little demand for electricians and or plumbers in the UK due to the fact anyone can do the work, well that must be the same in NZ and the US. 
What about painters, carpenters, brickies, interior designers, and hundreds of other jobs that anyone can do themselves if they desire with out any licence requirement. 
And just for the record I'm not a pom having a whinge.  
I'm uncertain as to whether the simple washer for the tap is allowed to be replaced by just anyone, unlikely. 
I would also agree the water wasted versus the increase in the power bill on a reticulated hot water systems would leave me with wasting water.
I'm sure there would be empirical evidence to suggest the best choice. 
Pulpo

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## silentC

Jackie, 
Don't take it to heart. You should know by now it's the natural response when someone from the UK starts talking about 'back home'. You'll always compare things to home because it's what you grew up with. I think you'll find that posts other than your own were the target of some of the comments made above. 
Pulpo, 
My Uncle works at a Bunnings in Newcastle. The store policy is not to give advice on electrical work to punters. That guy was probably trying to be helpful but he was breaking their rules by doing it. 
Do you really want people to be allowed to do their own wiring? By doing so, you're basically saying that 4 years of TAFE and on-the-job training is a waste of time: if anybody can know what they are doing with a few DIY leaflets from Bunnings. Sure, just whack another powerpoint in there and a few downlights in the living room. 
How many points are you allowed to have on a circuit? What affect will that change have on the operation of the RCD? Do you know how to test for earth leakage? Bad news, I reckon. I'm not saying you don't know but I'll bet what ever you like that most people who walk into Bunnings on Saturday mornings do not. 
BTW the remark about plumbers and sparkies not being in demand in the UK was tongue in cheek.

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## Iain

I just a sparky in to install a split system aircon, wall oven, safety switch and several new power points.
At the conclusion of this I was presented with a certificate which I shall present to my insurance company should the house burn down.
The same applies to the plumber who installed my gas hotplates and plumbed in the dishwasher.
I will not touch gas, big electric jobs, brakes on my car and a few other things even though I am capable of basic wiring.
I have changed power points and installed light fittings without incident and have no problem with this.
I do not buy anything electrical at Bunnies as they are far too expensive and I certainly don't seek their advice.
I do agree with the GOvernment policy on electrical work as there are a lot of incompetents out there who are of the opinioin that they know what they are doing, and that really frightens me.

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## q9

Plumbing and electrics aren't that hard.  No, really they're not.   
The whole licensing board exists to protect members of the respective trades ie plumbers and electricians.   It creates a closed shop environment where we have no choice but to employ "qualified" tradespeople.  Most electricians and plumbers (especially plumbers) that I've ever met aren't that bright. 
Anyone that's ever done a degree can learn everything there is to know about household electrics/plumbing in a few weeks.  It isn't rocket science, but the licensing boards would sure like everyone to believe it is.

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## DanP

I'm with you q9, 
There are a lot of incompetents IN trade.  When I did my trade it seemed to me that the teacher was more interested in making himself look good by not failing anyone.  There were several just in my class that should have failed for dangerous practices but were allowed to pass.   
Making a person who was qualified do a whole apprenticeship again is rediculous.   
They don't make people do it when it suits them not to.  I live in an area with a high number of Iraqi immigrants and refugees.  Several of them are practicing doctors who only sat an exam to be able to practice. 
Dan

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## Johnno

Mention of "rocket science" pushed my button. 
Back in another incarnation I was an electronics technician in Woomera ( the Rocket Range - not the gulag ). I worked in the Test Equipment lab, calibrating and servicing all kinds of electronic instruments - including very powerful CRT oscilloscopes which generated several kilovolts internally. We learned to be VERY careful - a slight contact usually threw your hand (etc) away, but if you got stuck it could get nasty very fast! The Department of Works did all the Range electrical work, and one of their Union reps decided that we were doing electrician's work if we changed a mains power lead or plug! 
All we techo's rapidly had a fast 'training course' and received a fancy ticket which stated that we were allowed to work on Mains electrical equipment within the boundaries of the Prohibited Area! 
The ticket got lost during one of my moves, or I would post a copy - it makes interesting reading! 
Johnno

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## silentC

We're not talking about people who've done a degree, we're not talking about Iraqi doctors, we're not even talking about apprentices. We're talking about open slather on electrical, sewer and mains water plumbing for Joe Public. The kind of people who walk into Bunnings to buy a powerpoint and have to ask how to wire it up.  
I ask again: do you really want these people to be allowed to do their own electrical and plumbing? Many or most of you would probably have no problem with any of these jobs. Most would probably be able to do a better job than the average 4th year apprentice. That's not the point. You can, but ask yourself if your neighbour can. Or the guy down the road. Or the guy at school who was always tying his own shoelaces together.  
Without some system of exclusion, anybody could walk into Bunnings, buy all the gear and then go home and build a fire trap. Face it, not everyone is capable of understanding electrics. It's good that most people are too frightened to touch wiring. I for one don't want them to get too confident. 
I agree on the apprenticeship for the qualified guy from another country. My old man is a plumber. When he moved from Victoria to NSW about 30 years ago, he was told he would have to re-do his apprenticeship if he wanted to get a NSW license. He told them to stick it and worked under another guy. A few years ago, the situation was changed and he was able to get his license by doing a refresher course.

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## q9

silentC, 
My point is more that it is deliberately a closed shop to limit access to a trade.  A lot of people would be quite capable of learning to do electrics, but as it stands you have to do an apprenticeship for 4 years.  This effectively limits access to young people.  If I decide that I want to be in the electrics business, then it is closed off to me as there is no way I would waste 4 years to do something I can learn in a much shorter time. 
Most people I know would be quite capable of replacing a light switch, power point, etc.  The others that wouldn't be at least have the common sense to know they have no apptitude for it and will just pay someone to do it. 
As for the others, well they are just proving Darwin's point...

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## Pulpo

I'm basically sick of having so called experts, the tradesperson, doing really simply jobs and knowingly doing a bodgie job. 
In the US, UK and NZ none have licence restrictions on electrical work.  
I repeat SERIOUS DIY material would be great, like they have in the US, books on rewiring your house or plumbing your home. 
I tend to believe the licence restrictions is more about restrictive trade practices under the guise of safety. 
If the home handy person should not be doing certain work, due to a lack of knowledge and or expertise, that's for him/her to decide for themselves. Lifes full of choice 
On a separate issue although related, does anyone know of a library where one can view the Australian Standards in Sydney. 
I have gone to the Standards bookshop to look-up a couple of requirements but a library would great for the books are expensive. 
Pulpo

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## Barry_White

I have worked in electrical and air conditioning for five years with a mate who is a qualified licenced electrical contractor. I agree that wiring a power point is simple but people get it wrong.  
One day I was servicing a oil heater. I turned it off at the power point but did not unplug it.  
Bad move.  
Who ever had wired up the power point had wired the neutral to the switch instead of the active so when I put my hand in to unplug the terminals of the fan I got a belt and boy does it give you a shock. (No pun intended.) 
I agree with Silent C all electrical work should be carried out by licenced electricians.  
Even electricians die from electrocution and they are doing it all the time.  
I agree the Standards books are expensive but you have to remember they have a restricted market so it is not like they can mass produce them and they constantly have to be updated. Most of the are in hard cover format except for the thinner publications but even they have high quality covers on them. 
Wiring light switches may seem simple things to do but start getting into two way switching and intermediate switching and it starts to get a bit more complicated. 
As far as the average person getting hold of the Australian Standard 3000 SAA Wiring Rules and understanding them fully the the 1981 version which was updated from the 1976 version and I don't know how many versions there have been since then but it has 385 pages of rules and standards which are cross referenced to one another which means what is ok under one circumstance is not ok under another. 
As Silent C says you have to know how many power points to a circuit. How many circuits to a main or a sub main. What size cable to use, can you mix single core cable with stranded cable, what circuit breaker size to use with what cable and the list goes on and on. 
This is why electricians  do a four year apprenticeship and when they are finished they have to pass a test to get their electricians  licence.  
But that only means they work under an Electical Contractor. If they want to be an Electrical Contractor they then have to pass further tests before they can work on their own. 
I hate paying poor tradesmen also but I think electrical work should be left to electricians. 
Thats my two Dollars worth.  *Remember One Flash and you are Ash*

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## Guy

Saying how many power points there are on a circuit is easy when you are wiring a new house as you can physically see and count them, how ever you ask and electrician who is adding addition power points to an existing circuit and there is no way of telling as the cabling is hidden out of sight behind the plaster board.
I was told once the licencing system was introduced in the ealy 1950 by the victorian labour goverement af the time under preasure from their Union mates to stop the migrant workers doing those trades and secondly to generate revenu to the goverment. It was then adopted by other staes.
In my case i was an electrician from the UK who fully understands AS3000 plus most of the other standards, like the victorian building codes as i had to use them all the time in my previous job.
Now if i went to live in Queensland or NSW then i can get the licence automatically without going back to school or re doing an appreticship then after 1 year move back to Victoria and transferit over.
In such a small country like ours we should either adopt the same standards nationally for licensing or prehaps make it a federal isssue.
Doing a search for electriacl diagrams for Aus conditions you wont find them.
But we are all preasured into paying upto $90 hour for plmbers or sparkies to do work for us.
Im currentley working as a handyman until i find  something better after beingg made redundant 2 years ago and refuse to do any plumbing or electrical work at anyones house, however i know many do. mI did work for someone earlier this year whom had bought a house owned previously by a sparky and most cabling in the house was the standard figure 8 bell wire for 240V, i discovered it the hard way buy cutting the cable and get kncked across the room. I know carry my meter with me prior to cutting anything.
As for people saying me or anyone else who came from the UK are whinging poms you have to remeber that we came here voluntary and not inside the ships, and POMS means prisoner of mother england.
I got fed up with the life there and here as well, and now looking at greener pasture in Singapore or Canada
In the schools in the UK they teach 15 year olds how to wire a plug, but even that is illegal in Aus. 
Back to the topic, under victorian plumbing rules it is illegal for anyone other than a licenced plumber to change you tap washers

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## journeyman Mick

Jackiew,
there's no dumb questions, only dumb people that don't ask questions! Ask away on this BB and I'm sure you'll get lots of useful and humourous answers. BTW, Acrylic paint is generally used on exterior timberwork here as it is able to expand and contract with the timber without cracking (or less craking than the enamels) and so protect the timber from the weather. Usual practice is acrylic everywhere except those areas constantly handled or touched: doors, windows & their frames. 
Mick

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## gatiep

I came to Australia from a country destroyed by violence. It was a matter of facing more violence, possibly loosing my own life or/ and members of my immediate family. I had 3 attempts on mine and have lost a large number of my family. 
Now to the point. A lot of the rules and regulations I don't understand and also don't always agree with them BUT I accept them. I believe that as I am the new boy on the block, being given a chance in this beautiful country it is definately out of line for me to criticise. Let me point out to you that I hold degrees and am professionally registered in my country of origin. On arriving here I was told by the 'council': " you are over qualified" ( their words not mine) "but you have to sit qualifying exams". I opted not to do that as I welcomed a change and adapted to doing something else. I had choices: Stay in my country of origin, requalify or come to Australia and adapt. 
Perhaps the solution to us newbies lie in exactly that: We are in a new country by our own choice, no Australian begged me to come, I was the guy doing the begging.........so then lets ADAPT. 
We became citizens as soon as it was possible and I definately don't want to take part in the 'whenwe' syndrome, as I am in Australia now and proud of it. 
Thank you Australia for accepting me and my family.....I appreciate the new life, no matter how different!

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## silentC

Joe, 
I'm a third generation Australian. One of my grandparents was born in England but the rest were born here. Most of my Great Grandparents came here from England to make a better life. It's only been in the last few years that I have come to realise how lucky I was to have been born here. 
One thing that makes this country what it is though is the contribution of so many people from so many different backgrounds who have made the place their home. Without getting into the pro and cons of multi-culturalism, there are so many things about this place that would be different if not for that. 
I guess what I am trying to say is that you're not obligated to accept what you see here just because you weren't born here. I think you have every right to criticise. Go back far enough and we're all new kids on the block. If you see something you don't like: yell, complain, jump up and down. That's the Australian way, mate! 
Guy, 
I don't think anybody really knows where POM came from. I've heard a few different variations. The point is it's light hearted and no different to what would be said to me if I popped up in the UK complaining about the weather! 
Very good points about the different laws in each State. Don't get me started on that. 
For the record: I learnt to wire a plug in an Australian secondary school. I bet they don't teach it now. 
Cheers...

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## Wood Borer

Joe, 
Contributors like yourself would be welcome in any country but please stay here. 
I am a seventh generation (or more) Aussie and after hearing what people like yourself have to say about other places in the world, I thank my lucky stars I am an Aussie. 
Back on the topic, yes the rules don't seem fair and we know the consequences if we come unstuck after breaking the rules.  
It would seem to be more constructive if people became involved in getting the rules changed rather than whinging and threatening to run away. 
A Pom at work (recently migrated) told me some amazing figures about the number of Poms who come out here, crack it and go back and then realise their mistake and return here. It was something like 35% leave but 60% of those return again. Must be an expensive exercise.  
- Wood Borer

----------


## DarrylF

Jackie, 
After living in the UK for 2 years, I know what you mean about so much being different - the language might be the same, the tourists might not notice much of a difference - but many times there I copped blank stares in stores  :Smilie:  I found after a while I would modify the way I talked, the terms I used, the slang - my whole way of speaking to just be able to be understood. Many many times I hit a blank stare after using a term nobody else seemed to understand at all  :Smilie:  Then I'd come back here on holidays and have to switch back to Aussie mode. Interesting experience. 
Given the quality of the electrical and plumbing work in both the US and the UK, I'm kinda glad we have some regulation here - even though I find it heavy handed most of the time, at least in spirit. 
Let's face it, unless you're an idiot (and idiots shouldn't be doing their own electrical or plumbing or much of anything else), most people can change a washer or tap, or replace a plug, light fitting or socket. It's not brain surgery - as evidenced by the IQ of many of the neanderthals who call themselves 'tradies'. (preparing to be flamed  :Smilie:  ) 
I've met some damn good sparkies and plumbers over the years, but I've met some real butchers too. The morons who wired this place and the regulators and inspectors who allowed them to do it should be shot. The place is less than 5 years old by a quality builder and the electrical is nothing short of half assed. 
Finding a good sparky is very, very difficult - and then getting them to do the job properly is just as hard. Getting sparkies and data cablers to do a decent job is one of the biggest pain in the butt parts of my job.

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## ozwinner

> _Originally posted by DarrylF_  * as evidenced by the IQ of many of the neanderthals who call themselves 'tradies'. (preparing to be flamed  ) *

  Huuugh,.....Ohhhhhhh,.................. Ugh

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## journeyman Mick

> _Originally posted by ozwinner_  *Huuugh,.....Ohhhhhhh,.................. Ugh*

  Uuuurgh, me no neanderthal, me be kromagnon uurgh. :Biggrin:   
uuurgMick

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## silentC

Of all the tradespeople and qualified individuals I've worked with over the years, the ones I've had the most cause to wonder about are architects  :Frown:

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## Barry_White

Engineers are a worry also

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## journeyman Mick

I'm sure that not all Architects are blithering idiots who specialise in wasting the clients money and everybodies time but unfortunately that's been my experience so far. In one case the Architect: 
supposedly supervised the project yet after handover I found over 100 defect items including large holes in walls that had been painted into, bifold doors that were inoperable, sewer manholes that were .5M above finish ground level (in the middle of a school playground) and stormwater drain points that sat forlornly well above the surrounding ground. I prepared a defect list for the client and then told them to bill the architects for my services - the architect didn't like me one bit after that! :Biggrin:  
The same architect went on to design further stages in which she managed to supply plans where the coordinates were @rseabout and the building got started the wrong way- luckily the builder got it worked out, but I don't know who paid for all tha extras.
She designed a boarding house with a kitchen that was tiny. I pointed out that it probably wouldn't meet health department regs for a commercial kitchen. She didn't even realise that it would be classified as a commercial kitchen, that plans for commercial kitchens and associated waste disposal had to be submitted seperately to the health department and to the trade waste department or that there were any minimum sizes, ventilation requirements etc etc associated with a commercial kitchen. So now the school has a new boarding house without a kitchen. She also placed the long axis of the boarding houses from North to South, meaning that while the stairwells and bathrooms are nice and cool the bedrooms get blisteringly hot. I was actually talking to the principal on Sunday night about it all and she told me that she is still trying to convince the board that although this architects firm has given the lowest price for their services they are costing them in the long run.:mad: :mad:  
Mick

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## Driver

In a previous career, I had a lot of contact with architects. In about 23 years of experience I reckon I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of members of that profession who impressed me that they knew what they were doing. 
Two true stories as illustrations :Redface:  
This particular genius was designing a large railway station. He had carefully specified what he called an "iron" as a cap detail over the edge of the eaves gutters throughout the complex. This "iron" (the rest of the industry would know it as a rolled steel angle) was to be completely untreated: no galvanizing, no paint - just bare steel. When I questioned him, he assured me that he knew it would rust. When I further questioned him as to why he felt this was a good thing (you could tell that he did by the supercilious smirk), he looked at me with a very superior expression, obviously not expecting me to understand, and said: "Art". I guess he was right: I didn't - and still don't understand. (He didn't get his way, incidentally. The structural subcontractors and the roofies conspired to supply and install fully galvanized and painted sections - they submitted a Variation Order for the additional costs and it was passed and paid). 
The second example occurred when I foolishly spent a bit of time as a consultant. (Definition of a consultant: someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time and then charges you for the privilege). I was attempting to instruct a bunch of public sector architects in project management. To illustrate a point about quality and consistency I cited the example of McDonalds: they deliver predictable, reliable quality nearly 100% of the time. One of the group got up and walked out. As he flounced through the door he was heard to remark that he never thought he would hear his "work" being compared to fast food. 
Well, he was right, too. His work could not accurately be compared to McDonalds. One of my kids attended a primary school that this bloke had designed and project-managed. It was finished six months late, ran 150% over budget and had a litany of design and construction problems that would fill a book. 
I have a mate who is an architect (amazingly enough!). He reckons the Greeks and Romans had it easy because they had only two types of material to work with: stone and wood. So the reason for all the crappy work we see nowadays is that architects have too much choice! Well, it's a point of view. 
Col

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## silentC

I've been watching the house across the road get a second storey. The architect has given it a butterfly roof with a box gutter up the middle. I'm a little bit concerned about what might happen to their lounge room ceiling if the box gutter overflows. I know plenty of buildings have them but they are notorious for leaking and the problem with them is that when they do leak or overflow, the water has nowhere to go but into the roof and through the ceiling. Also a pain in the rear end to replace when they rust out. They're worse than valley gutters on a hip roof. 
In my opinion, it would have been safer to have a normal pitched roof and direct the stormwater into gutters on the roof perimeter but then that wouldn't look as good, would it?  
We've told the neighbours to leave a shovel and a ladder by the house in case it hails when they are away.

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## Driver

> _Originally posted by silentC_  * 
> In my opinion, it would have been safer to have a normal pitched roof and direct the stormwater into gutters on the roof perimeter but then that wouldn't look as good, would it?  *

  Darren 
How it would look is, of course, a matter of taste and opinion (I think butterfly roofs look crappy but I'm prepared to believe someone else might disagree).  
On the other hand, how an internal box gutter will perform in flooding rain conditions is a matter of empirically verified fact. The water will piss into the building like a second manifestation of the Flood. 
Why anyone with half a brain would design a building like this is beyond my comprehension. 
Col

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## silentC

Here's a picture of it.  
The thing that isn't obvious from the picture is that the top storey is actually rotated about 5 degrees clockwise (viewed from above) in relation to the lower one. You should have seen the head scratching that went on over that one. And what's with the brown lining board at the back?   :Rolleyes:

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## Sir Stinkalot

Looking good  :Tongue:

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## silentC

I think it will look *OK* - at least it obscures the one behind it, which you can just see the top of (it's an architect-designed box with a few windows and a ridiculous balcony tacked on the front).  
I just think that for the sake of 'something different' the architect has created a few problems for the builder and maybe a potential future problem for the owners.

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## Driver

Stinky 
We obviously need a poll!  
Who thinks it looks good - and who, on the other hand, is sensible, sentient, sensitive, aesthetically aware and altogether together? 
Whaddaya reckon? 
Col

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## Eastie

*Rant on.* 
I cant see past the problems with the scaffold: No toeboardsIncomplete decks and non-existent steps between deck levelsLadders being used on the scaffold to gain extra height - did someone forget what height the decks should be at?Electrical power leads draped across uninsulated metal scaffolding
Id be taking a stab in the dark with the next two due to the photo angle but if that scaffold is close to those LV lines then the electrical distribution company and/or the governments works safe inspectors may become problem.  I also recall that scaffolds must be tied into the supporting structure at least every three 3 bays and at least every four metres vertically or no higher than three times the least base width.  And last but not least  is that knob head on the balcony on the left working adjacent to and above the timber guardrail?  
Eastie  *Rant off.*

----------


## Sir Stinkalot

No poll needed ..... 
Imagine if every house was designed by a builder .... my God .... the world would begin to look like all of those mass produced display homes that can be seen in almost any suburb. I can fully understand that builders like to do what is easy and has been done before but sometimes the boundary needs to be pushed. 
Col ..... Would you prefer that Darrens view be blocked by an interesting well designed house or a mock Georgian monstrosity that doesn't belong anywhere near the Australian costal environment.   :Biggrin:

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## JackoH

Isn't it amazing what a simple question about changing a tap washer can lead to!
Just goes to show what a lot of mixed up crazy people we woodies are...  :Frown:

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## ozwinner

Yahoo, at last, they are leaveing the poor tradie alone and picking on the architects.
Your turn Stinky. :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   
Al

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## Driver

> _Originally posted by Sir Stinkalot_  *Would you prefer that Darrens view be blocked by an interesting well designed house or a mock Georgian monstrosity that doesn't belong anywhere near the Australian costal environment.  *

  Stinky 
Serious question demands a serious answer. (Well, this time, anyway  :Biggrin:  ) 
If Darren's view is to be blocked at all - and only he should have a comment on that issue - I personally would prefer the well-designed house over the mock Georgian monstrosity. No argument. 
Now, as to whether the object that is currently being erected between Chez Darren and what looks like a ripper of a view is well-designed . . .  
Leaving aesthetics aside - even though I'm loth to do that because it is a bit like conceding something most architects seem to believe - ie, that aesthetics in building are their exclusive preserve - which they bloody well are not.  Anyway, as I say, leaving aesthetics aside the house in question is not well-designed. Its butterfly roof and internal box gutter will produce precisely the opposite result from the main purpose of roofs and gutters. Instead of keeping water out of the building, they will help to let it in. 
Well-designed doesn't just mean looking good. It means working properly. Actually, it should mean both. It certainly doesn't mean achieving one objective at the expense of the other. 
Col

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## Barry_White

About thirty years ago I was putting all the windows in St Vincents Private Hospital in Sydney and the architect and the site forman were having an argument.  
It started to get a bit heated and the forman yells at the architect *"That will never work"*  
The architect turned around and says to the foreman well you just build it how you see fit and then I will draw it.

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## bitingmidge

If I may make a comment here....and speaking as one who has worn a hat or two too many, and with formal qualifications in the following order :Redface:  House Builder (1972 tools 'n all), Commercial Window Subcontractor, ARCHITECT (registered in 1975), General Builder('77), Town Planner (1989, and a profession which is the root cause of all we see around us I may add) and finally, property developer who makes a living hiring all of the above...I feel eminently qualified to comment here (on all but matters involving plumbing and electricity, which were only mentioned to bring all this back onto the thread!  Even if the above don't qualify me to wield the flame thrower, I'm so up myself.....no I wont' even go there!!  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:  
Mick:  

> 'm sure that not all Architects are blithering idiots (snip)...the Architect:  
>  supposedly supervised the project (snip).... this architects firm has given the lowest price for their services....

  Sadly many are indeed  blithering idiots..maybe most of 'em.  The clever ones are off doing things that will make them a quid, and architecture is a "calling" these days, not a way to make a living. That's why they are called Architectural "Practices" not Businesses! As an employee in an architects office 25 years ago, I earned about the same as most labourers.  As a principal of a firm employing 25 people, I drove a flash car and earned less than a foreman on the jobs I was "supervising".  Today the situation is n better! 
Pay peanuts...get monkeys.  That is what the push for the lowest fee gets, and as you rightly point out, that does not produce value in the end. 
The reference to "supervision", is a little unfair...what was the builder doing while this was all happening...playing golf?  Or what about all those compentent licenced tradies?   For the record architects are usually engaged to provide "periodic inspections for quality control purposes" the builder is supposed to "supervise"....but while there is a near enough is good enough attitude in the industry, I guess the last man on the site gets the blame! :Cool:   
Lastly (and I'm turning off my computer now lest it should  melt)  the reference to "she" is telling.  I have employed many female professionals, and some make very very competent specialists.  In thirty years I have only met one whom I would put in that category as far as on-site work is concerned. It's a tough life if you're a girl with an architecture degree!! 
Col:  

> aesthetics in building are their exclusive preserve - which they bloody well are not.

  No you are absolutely correct, they are also the preserve of anyone else who has at least six years of tertiary design training, and at least a lifetime of ongoing education! :Wink:   
Ozwinner:  

> are leaveing the poor tradie alone

  The only time I've ever seen a poor tradie was one who had just come back from holidays in the French Riviera to find his  boat had been stolen! 
Driver:   

> In about 23 years of experience I reckon I could count on the fingers of one hand

  While I don't disagree, I have to say the same goes for any trade or profession, by observation about 6% of any trade are the guys you give the next job to.  I reckon I  could count on the fingers of one THUMB the number of builders I would say were truly competent and didn't leave the sort of defect list Mick was talking about earlier! 
Stinky (you don't mind if I call you "Stinky" do you?)  Keep fighting the good fight old bean, we are close to being outnumbered on this one!!   

> Imagine if every house was designed by a builder .... my God .... the world would begin to look like all of those mass produced display homes that can be seen in almost any suburb

     Errr aren't they?  Doesn't it?? 
Was the house in question actually designed by an architect or some brickies mum who downloaded a free cad programme and now all the good guys are copping the flak? :Rolleyes:   Perhaps if there was protective legislation in place to prevent rank amateurs with no experience designing things (the same sort of protection enjoyed by plumbers, electricians and builders) then the clever guys would come back, the blithering idiots would go broke, and we could all go back to talking about woodwork. :Wink:   :Wink:   
Looks like his mum picked the colours in any case. 
Ohh, SilentC: why not just sneak out one night and paint it in clear paint...then you wont' have to look at it till.......... 
End of ohh so serious rant, take tongue out of cheek and check for teeth marks.....  Cheers! 
P

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## Driver

> _Originally posted by bitingmidge_  
> Col:  
> No you are absolutely correct, they are also the preserve of anyone else who has at least six years of tertiary design training, and at least a lifetime of ongoing education! 
> P [/B]

  P - mate, 
(Helluva CV you've got there, incidentally). 
I don't usually bite but this is such a fascinating discussion I feel obliged to keep it going. Interesting point you make about training and experience. Have you got any room in there for talent, flair, taste and judgement? There was a thread on the BB some months ago about art being the exclusive preserve of people with tertiary qualifications. This appears to be the same argument. 
The lifetime of ongoing education, if taken as a basic requirement, doesn't leave any room for bright young talent - people who are prepared to use their gifts but to temper their wilder urges by valuing the experience of older and sometimes wiser heads. The one or two genuinely impressive architects (at least one of whom was under 30) that I did meet when I was still in the industry spent a fair bit of time working out how to get things built by talking to experienced tradesmen. 
Col 
(Did we work out how to change the washer on a hot water tap, by the way?  :Biggrin: )

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## bitingmidge

BTW, a couple of recent posts by yours truly, (at least two that I can think of) with incorrect/incompetent/misinformation (thankfully fixed by Mick and others) have probably confirmed my Architectural training! 
But Barry:  

> About thirty years ago... the architect and the site forman were having an argument.   
>  It started to get a bit heated and the forman yells at the architect "That will never work"

  Times don't change. 
If I only had a dollar......mostly it does work, or did 30 years ago, until they invented CAD and every non-thinking unemployed no hoper started to call themselves a CAD draftsman.  I used to tell them if I could draw it they could build it.....but now I'm not so sure.  Seen more than one job built off "as-builts"! 
I've never met a site foreman who has ever had an architect who knew what he was doing at the beginning of a job, but they seem to be fast learners these architects, and foremen great teachers, because often at the end of the job, a "typical" foreman will show some (begrudging?) respect for the different skills/talents which have been displayed. 
We wouldn't have leaks either if those ungrateful client bastards wouldn't keep leaving their pieces of art in the rain....  
(sob!) 
....returns to bed sucking thumb...(small substitute for foot, but trying to give feet up). 
Cheers, 
P

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## silentC

Just a brief couple of points before I retire to the upstairs penthouse for a glass of port with the old man. The building in question was: 
a. designed by an architect (I know because he has hung his sign on it)
b. not blocking my view at all, which is quite splendid and I must post a picture of the view from my workshop one day soon to make you all jealous - but thank you for your concern.   :Wink:

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## bitingmidge

> before I retire to the upstairs penthouse for a glass of port with the old man.

  Oohh terribly sorry.  Tell me it wasn't ME who drove you to drink! 
Suggest you direct said architect to this thread before he gets ideas about submitting edifice for international award!  
Night night, 
P

----------


## Old Bill

Wow... What a lot of posts over a couple of tap washers   :Smilie: 
Regs here in NZ are a bit different, but not the purpose of my post. 
Ok... We bought a block of land a few years back and bought two removal homes to put on it.
They have "Master" this and "Master" that over here, so when it came to the power we had to get the right guy for the job.
Most of the plumbing was intact with the house we bought, and I did most of the work myself to bring it up to scratch, which the inspector passed with no probs.
My daughters place on the other hand needed a bit of work, and being the independent type she brought in a "Master Plumber".
Two guys arrived... inspected the job, then sat back for a tea break and sammies.  Daughter asked what was happening.
Reply... "We are short of some 40mm... but it's on its way"
Four hours passed, with very little work done, and my daughter "still" without water.
Being on tank water it came time to connect up to the pump.. (one that had been serviced six months prior BTW)..
The two guys stood scratching their heads as a slight trickle came from the garden tap, with "none" from the house at all.
Three more hours...
"Have to come back tomorrow".. they said.. and were off before my daughter could get a word in. 
Come morning (11am).. they returned and shot under the house looking at the pump.
"Too much head".. said one... "You need a new pump... this is stuffed" he added.  (A single storey building BTW... 6 Foot head at most)
All my daughter wanted was water, as she had three young kids.
From the back of the truck they produced a new pump, and after some protest from my daughter they fitted it.
Almost two hours later there was "still" only a trickle from the garden tap, so they checked everything, then dissapeared again for another hour... then returned saying the pump must be faulty, and they would bring a replacement.... "Tomorrow" 
Day three arrived, and the "Master" plumbers returned.
By now I had looked over the job and seen the fault, which I told my daughterabout, but she was insistant on letting them finish the job.
They fitted the "new" pump, but had the same result.
They primed and re-primed... but "still" the same result. 
Losing my cool I shouted...
"You've got the non-return the wrong way round at the tank"
"Don't you think we know what we are doing.." yelled one.
"No... you %^&&** don't.."  I yelled... "Go look at the bloody thing"
I walked away in disgust.
Ten minutes later the water was flowing.. but no word from the "Master Plumbers" who were charging $75:00 per hour.. plus fittings. 
This pair of idiots might be only two out of two thousand,but how the hell did "they" get their tickets...  :Smilie:  
The account came a few weeks later, and after a great deal of discussion the account was cut in half.
Don't know what happened to the "masters"... but we never saw them again.

----------


## journeyman Mick

BitingMidge,
I asked the architect who the project manager was when I started noticing all these defects and she informed me that there was none and she was carrying out the "traditional" architects role of supervising and generally looking after the clients interests. To be honest I haven't worked that much on commercial sites and don't know the ins and outs of who exactly is responsible for what but even if it was only "periodic supervision" that was being provided she should have picked up at least one of the 150 or so defects that I managed to find and document in 3 hours.
As far as aesthetics being the preserve of "anyone else who has at least six years of tertiary design training, and at least a lifetime of ongoing education!"  I disagree. Aesthetics can be nurtured and developed but can't be taught, if the person has no sense of aesthetics to start with then 6 yrs of uni and a lifetime of study will still see that person producing tripe. 
Architecture is partly an art form (a look at Frank Lloyd Wright's or Antonio Gaudi's work will confirm this) albeit one that is tied to a discipline/industry (building) which is literally earth bound. However like most artists in any discipline nowadays they've lost sight of the fact that they are producing for an end user and shouldn't be having a self indulgent w@nk. 
Conceptual artists who place a putrid decaying cows carcasse in a gallery, chefs that produce "nouvelle cuisine" creations that consist of a few "artfully arranged design elements" ( 3 bites of steak and a few vegetable "flowers" with a swirl of gravy) on a huge plate, and architects who design buildings with no regard for climate, orientation or the actual use of the spaces inside, but simply see it as a 3 dimensional advertisement for their design sense have all lost sight of what they are paid to do. 
A building, in general is first and foremost a space with a purpose or several purposes, not a huge outdoor sculpture. If an architect can't or won't design something that meets the client's needs they should give up architecture and try to make a living as a sculptor instead. Only they don't as it's much harder to get money out of the Arts Council than some mug who has a lot of money and an even less well developed aesthetic sense than the architect.
And before you and Stinky and any other architects think I've got it in for architects, that's not the case. I simply can't abide any professional (and I'm using professional in the sense of someone who does something for money) doing poor work. I've seen doctors, tradesmen, restauranteurs, teachers and machinery operators who were all either incapable or unwilling to do good work, and frankly, it's inexcusable.
Anyway, that's the end of my rave. :Biggrin:  
(No offence meant to anyone other than the blithering idiots of the world  :Biggrin:  ) 
Mick

----------


## Pulpo

Eastie has my vote for foreman. 
Has the Carr Government in NSW enacted legislation requiring many building developments [I assume the cost, as the criteria] to be designed by an architect? 
Some sort of an assumption, that architects are not going to design eyesores, hmm! 
I'm ambivalent  about the house but agree box gutters have problems.

----------


## silentC

P,   

> Tell me it wasn't ME who drove you to drink

  Fear not, I have a long-time association with the drink:  http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...?threadid=6970 
PS: Still 3-4 a day. It's not that I can't cut back, it's just that I wont...  :Cool:

----------


## jackiew

no i didn't change the hot tap washer yet .... my other ongoing project - new deck ( more later :mad: ) chewed up rather more of my Easter than I was anticipating.   I did however change the cold tap washer last night.    I decided that as I had no idea what the internals of an Australian tap might be like I would do the easy one ( !!!!)  before running off a bath of hot water ( didn't need a bath ... remember I'm English so I like to keep my towels dry  :Biggrin:   ( have to reinforce a few prejudices occasionally) ).  Just as well really ... as I ended up doing the mad dash to Bunnings before they closed at 9pm.     
The pillar was screwed in with a 24mm square which I was not expecting and which owing to being embedded deeply in a hole in the wall was just not quite accessible to the assortment of tools which I had at my disposal.  When I tell you that there was even a kitchen knife added to the tool kit on the draining board you will realise I was getting kind of desperate here.  There is that frustration when the jaws of the spanner are about 0.5 mm away from reaching the sides of the square.    And of course if the jaws were long enough they weren't 24mm wide!!!   Half an hour later  with one cheap crappy box spanner clutched in my hot sweaty hands I attacked the job again.    Spanner fitted - tap pillar was so long that it  got in the way of the tommy bar.   But we have the technology and I have a new washer on the cold tap .... tonight the hot tap ... honest!!!!  
... and my 10c on architects.  Got a renovation report from one from Archicentre.    Despite the fact that I'm surrounded by neighbours who have gone upwards and that I have a roof space which is big enough to stand up in in the middle already ( and no trusses ) he obviously preferred out to up ( in fact he declined to even look in the attic ).   He managed to incorporate a lot of my wants in his design ( apart from leaving me with some back garden ) but some of it was totally impractical.     The laundry would have opened out into the narrower of the two passages up the sides of the house.  He was proposing to put water tanks out there as well between laundry and the back of the house and he put the extension on that side too.  So there I would be staggering out of the laundry squeezing past the water tanks and walking about 10 metres before I got anywhere near the washing line.    
The block slopes quite steeply away from the house and he was proposing that the extension be on the same level as the rest of the house.  I would be stepping out onto my deck which would be at the same height as the top of  the fence between me and next door - they'd just love that wouldn't they - no privacy in their garden at all. 
I might take on some of his ideas but to be honest it wasn't the best investment of money that I've ever made.    Trouble is its totally pot luck.  Archicentre assign you an architect and if he's not on your wavelength you've said good bye to your money.  And you won't really know if he's on your wavelength until he's put all the work in.

----------


## ozwinner

> _Originally posted by bitingmidge_  *   
> Ozwinner: 
> The only time I've ever seen a poor tradie was one who had just come back from holidays in the French Riviera to find his  boat had been stolen!*

  Awwwhhh @@@@, I wish you could have informed me earlier that me boat was gone. 
Cheers, Boatless in Whittlesea

----------


## ozwinner

Hi Mick
You need to have a look at Federation square in Melbourne. http://www.federationsquare.com.au/
What a w@ank they had drawing this monstrosity up, either that or they were/are on drugs.
Way over budget, but hey thats ok, us poor mugs paid for it, and I think 18 months over schedule.
How do you get a gig like that? 
Cheers, Allan

----------


## neddy

These two trades are the only licenced trades for a very good reason.  Apart from the insurance issue if your house burns down throught shonky work... the bigger issue is that electricity KILLS....also it's not a good idea for DIYers to be messing with gas lines...leave it to a licenced plummer.  Hows this for a scenario........average Joe does his own electrical & plumbing which results in a gas leak only to be ignited by the spark due to loose terminals in a GPO outlet.........BOOM!

----------


## Barry_White

As I said One flash and your ash.

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## bitingmidge

Mick,  
If we keep this up we'll be in HOT WATER  :Biggrin: (just a reference to add relevance to the thread!) 
Now....to keep all this off topic aesthetic stuff away from talk of plumbing, I hope you dont' mind but I've copied your reply to start a new thread hopefully on the why's and wherefores of aestheticism vs w@nking! 
If you do mind...well I guess I lose the debate! 
See thread titled "Death to the Blithering Idiots".
(coming soon!)
Cheers, 
P :Biggrin:

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## Taffy

Guys,Guys!! please stop it hurts, Here in Oz as anywhere else if you are sure you can do the job as good or better than someone you will have to pay THEN DO IT.
  AS for the water system not having a stop cock, put an inline tap in yourself, if the loo needs a new O ring then go and get one and put it in.
  Changing a power point is different from rewiring new ones, its like changing a light bulb, you are not technically supposed to do even that but I doubt you would find anyone that hasn't done it.
  I guess the answer is work within your capabilities and you should be ok.
    If you wait for someone to tell you it's ok then you will never do it. 
Go for it, stuff the bureaucrats they are only there to help themselves and make life complicated. 
Taffy

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## Iain

That's a bit unfair, they were just using up all the offcuts from other projects thereby conserving materials.
Anyway, how about that monstrosity at the end of the bridge on Swanston/St Kilda Rd, I think it's gone now.
Looked like a scaffolders apprentices nightmare.

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## wombat47

What was the original question?  Something about changing a tap washer, wasn't it? 
Did turning off the water at the mains work?   
My two cents worth ...  
plumbing - any new work underground generally needs to be inspected (in NSW at least) and must be done by a licensed plumber.  Fair enough - keeps the council records up to date and eliminates delays if someone else wants to buy your house.  And it should eliminate the possibility of explosions of built up gas.  You can save yourself money if you dig the trenches yourself and fill in later. 
Tap washers, tap replacement, toilet pans, putting in another garden tap - doesn't need inspecting.  If you mess up, you clean up the mess. 
plumbing/gas - wouldn't touch it.  Get in a licensed plumber. 
roofing - most plumbers seem to extend their training to get a roofing certificate.  However, after having had bad experiences with work done by these professionals, it has now entered the personal DIY realm.  I don't have to pay me to cock up.  Why pay someone else.

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## jackiew

at prophesised by one of the earlier posts turning off the stop cock and then running the hot taps didn't empty the whole tank ... it took about 15 mins as it dribbled out but the result was about 1/3 of a bath of hot water.     
Kitchen tap washer was a breeze so overcome with enthusiasm I dismantled one of the laundry taps ( a bizarre combined sink/washing machine tap assembly which requires gorilla like force to turn the taps off).  I took digital photos as I dismantled it ... just in case I forgot which of the many bits went where but it wasn't that difficult  a process just completely perplexing.  I decided at that point that my knowledge of Australian tap anatomy was insufficient to do the job.   The only thing that looked like a tap washer was resolutely attached to something else and I didn't dare prize it out in case it wasn't meant to be prized.    Back it all went, assembly the reverse of disassembly. 
Turned the water back on again and  there was a rush of water somewhere up above ( presumably to the header tank ).      Waited for the rush of water to stop  and turned the hot taps on - zilch, nada, nothing,  not out of any of them, not even cold water.        After about 1.5 hours was getting a dribble out of the bath taps.  I turned the power off to the hot water service off just to make sure that I wasn't going to be trying to heat air ( belt and braces - you should see the software I write  :Redface: ) ) 
Woke up this morning full service resumed.

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## silentC

> a bizarre combined sink/washing machine tap assembly which requires gorilla like force to turn the taps off

  What, don't you have those in the UK *either*? Honestly, it makes me wonder how you guys ever ruled the world  :Wink:

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## Jacksin

jackiew you were almost there, but when you turned the water back on, and as you have a low pressure unit you should have left all the hot taps turned on. 
As the header tank, heater and then pipework filled the air would have been expelled through the taps. 
What you actually had was an 'airlock' that luckily cleared itself.
Jack:  :Wink:

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## jackiew

hey silentc .. we mostly don't even have laundries in our houses .. only if you're very posh or very fortunate will you have a "utility room".  The front loading washing machine goes under the worktop in the kitchen and the plumbing for it is an add on extra  :Redface: ).     Fortunately the ability to install complicated tapwork isn't a required skill when you set out to dominate the world :Biggrin:   
Ta for the advice on leaving the taps on - I will add this to my notes for the next tap washer change :Smilie:

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## silentC

The Romans were pretty big on plumbing, but then look what happened to them  :Wink:

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## journeyman Mick

If you need to replace tap washers and can't find the stopcock/there isn't one/it's corroded and inoperable, it is still possible to change washers. It works better if you don't have really high pressure town water but, you just turn every tap on full bore, remove the spindle/bonnet assembly (having somebody there to deflect all the water into the sink with a tray or cutting board helps) replace washer and reassemble. I've had to do this quite a few times and with practice it's pretty quick and not too messy. If you need to do it on your hot water taps you may need to do it just after everyone has had a hot shower or turn the power off for half a day in order to prevent scalding. And yes, of course it's better to actually repair/replace/fit a stopcock (or better still get a plumber to do so) but it's not always an option. 
Mick

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## silentC

Had to change the tap body on a water meter stopcock once - that was fun. We used a baby bath to redirect the water. You still get very wet! Certainly adds a bit of excitement to an otherwise mundane job  :Wink:

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## Carsten

If you have access to liquid nitrogen you can apparently freeze the water in the pipe before the stopcock. Hopefully you can get the job done before you run out of liquid nitrogen... 
Heard this from a friend renovating his house (in the the UK!) which was affectionately known as The Rot. He got excited when he heard I worked in a research lab, but we never got round to trying it. 
Carsten 
PS Regarding the safety of DIY electrical work, I agree that there are people who who should not be tempted to carry out their own wiring. However, the law seems to be very selective. What's to stop me buying auto brake pads from Repco, fitting them incorrectly and killing the next pedestrian who walks out in front of my car.  You can even buy workshop manuals for any car to encourage you. Do car mechanics just have less influential unions?

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## julianx

Ques: Whats black and shriveled and hangs from the ceiling.   
Ans:   A DIY electrician

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## silkwood

I'm just about to knock down a house which the previous owner felt capable of rewiring. Okay, I'm not just knocking it down becausse of this, but the work was seriously scary. What worries me is the term "if you feel competent". Pretty much everyone who has done a home rewiring or plumbing job felt competent, until it screwed up! 
As for plumbing, I sell building and renovating supplies. You wouldn't believe the number of people trying to return mangled and obviously fitted/unfitted equipment simply because it was wrong and they did'nt know what they were doing. Or the number of plumbers (some are pretty dumb I know, but they are mostly pretty good at basic plumbing which is 99% of their job) who are in fits of laughter after going out to fix up yet another botched up home job.  
Cheers,

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## MrFixIt

Hi Seeing this thread has come back to life, (no reference to the black and shrivelled DIY electrician), I'd like to concur with Taffy's comment *Guys,Guys!! please stop it hurts, Here in Oz as anywhere else if you are sure you can do the job as good or better than someone you will have to pay THEN DO IT.*  
If you KNOW you can do it then DO SO, if you are not sure then DON'T. I have done electrical work since I was eleven, so I'm not about to stop now. I have had a "heart starter" every now and then - adds to the excitement of the day  :Biggrin:  
I am a licensed LPG gas installer, and it seems odd to me that I (by license) can install piping for something that is invisible, can blow up buildings and can suffocate sleeping humans and yet I am NOT allowed to work with plumbing that controls water that can be seen and felt and is relatively safe and generally speaking only gets you very wet (OK, you can drown). 
Regards 
Peter

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## Taffy

Carsten, I have heard of pipes being frozen to enable work to be carried out on working systems, When an airconditioning valve needed replacing on top of our 15 story building, the guys used dry ice to freeze the pipe cut it off while it was frozen fitted a new valve and let the pipe warm up on its own afterwards, took them half hour and no mess. 
   This is getting pretty major though for just one household tap washer.
    You know those jobs that just seem to get bigger and bigger the longer you think about them,  This is one of those  
Taffy

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## Brudda

morning all, at the risk of getting this thread all stirred up again, I would like to add my bit. 
In a previous lifetime as a painter, I had a policy of one price for me comming into a job and doing it all my self, and a higher price for me to come in and fix up the owners poor attempts at doing the job himself!

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## capedcrusader

What is a licenced tradesperson other than someone who has gone to technical college and has experience. Go to a tech college and visit the library -all the information is there  free of charge. If you then legitimately know what youre doing and you do the work properly what difference does it make that you did it??? Tradespeople in my experience like anyone else who gets paid to do often difficult/unpleasant work for others arent particularly interested in solving your problems forever cause naturally its not good for business and also they arent getting paid enough anyway. If you cant get it from books yourself then pay someone who can IMHO.
Just 2 cents worth

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## silentC

What is a doctor other than someone who has gone to University and has experience? You could probably learn that from a book too but I wouldn't want you messing with my appendix. Who am I going to sue if you accidentally cut my liver out?

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## journeyman Mick

Why of course you'll sue the council for providing the library, the librarian for not warning you that you needed to do more than just read a book, the publishers for disseminating this dangerous information, the writers for willfully endangering your life etc etc etc. Hmmmm, maybe I need to read a few books and become a litigation specialist. :Biggrin:   
Mick

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## Pulpo

Mick  
I have a feeling your talents maybe even better spent on another career. 
It would probably be more lucrative anyway and less work. 
But we do appreciate your tradesmen comments. 
Cheers 
Pulpo

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## capedcrusader

SilentC
Yep I totally see your point about the experience aspect. I was talking about doing minor domestic work on your own house not doing work for others.

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## Carsten

I can't believe this thread is still going! 
Taffy 
Dry ice sounds a lot more manageable than liquid nitrogen, although I agree, still overkill for a domestic washer job. I was thinking more of having to repair the stopcock itself as in SilentC's post. 
I'm not even going to start to suggest whether or not you should do this yourself...

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## wombat47

Gee, the original posting sure broke open a hornet's nest. 
The first thing we did when we moved into current house was work on the stormwater system, which was hopelessly inadequate.  There was a considerable amount of work done, including laying a completely new storm water pipe to connect onto an existing one. 
We chose the guy whose name was emblazoned on his fleet of vans and trucks - must have been a good plumber to be making all that money.   Hmmm..... 
The new stormwater had to cross the path of the existing sewer pipe.  Simple ... just break out about 60cm of sewer and lay the storm water across the gap.  Unfortunately for him, we discovered that when we had a shower, used the handbasin or flushed the toilet, a puddle appeared in the path of the stormwater. 
He replaced it eventually (and that was only after we threatened legal proceedings) but was totally ungracious about doing so. 
There are plenty of excellent tradesmen but employing a tradesman unfortunately doesn't guarantee a good job.  On the other hand, many do-it-yourselfers will follow the instructions to the letter and produce an excellent outcome. 
For every funny story you professionals have about DIYers, we can tell one about you guys.

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