# Forum More Stuff At the end of the day  Utes, dual cab Utes.

## Spottiswoode

Figured some of you here would be ute drivers so as good a place to ask as any. All thoughts appreciated.  
my current set of wheels is getting a long in the tooth and the kids keep 'mentioning' the back seat isn't big enough. Toying with the idea of a dual cab ute to replace it. It's a 2003 forester and probably due for a clutch soon, so rath than spend coin fixing it, sell it off and upgrade.  
Im thinking something 2009ish with under 150000km on it. I'm looking at the major brands, Toyota, Nissan, mits, etc not a Great Wall 
Anoyone had experience with Nissan D40? They seem to be cheaper than the toyotas and look like the newest size/shape in that age. 
any other comments appreciated relating to twin cab Utes.

----------


## plum

I go round in a 2005 Rodeo dual cab 3.6 RA. think that's what it's called, since new. Petrol, bit of a guzzler, but touch wood, costs me nothing otherwise, never broken down. 170k's at the moment. Put a canopy on with lift up windows and roof racks. Don't put sliders on. Not a lot of space in the back, but rear seat and floor holds all my expensive tools. Is excellent for going away in, quite comfy.

----------


## Marc

Depends what you want to spend. The dual cab toyota or nissan are a bit cramped inside if you are after more space. I like the new Ford Ranger. I drive a Toyota 4wd and probably unlikely to change anytime soon due to towing capability.
Plum put her on gas, you will laugh at the servo every time.

----------


## m6sports

> Figured some of you here would be ute drivers so as good a place to ask as any. All thoughts appreciated.  
> my current set of wheels is getting a long in the tooth and the kids keep 'mentioning' the back seat isn't big enough. Toying with the idea of a dual cab ute to replace it. It's a 2003 forester and probably due for a clutch soon, so rath than spend coin fixing it, sell it off and upgrade.  
> Im thinking something 2009ish with under 150000km on it. I'm looking at the major brands, Toyota, Nissan, mits, etc not a Great Wall 
> Anoyone had experience with Nissan D40? They seem to be cheaper than the toyotas and look like the newest size/shape in that age. 
> any other comments appreciated relating to twin cab Utes.

  
The Nissan D40 have rubbish clutches so expect to have to replace it if buying one of these, I had a BT50 2012 so current shape and had a heap of issues that ranged from transfer case failing to electrical problems both of which caused the radio and Aircon to fail at times.... I traded it in as I had a gut full of all the problems..... 
The ranger I've heard is no better but it seams like ford is sorting out the issues unlike mazda 
i wouldnt go Toyota as when test driving one it felt well underpowered and not as nice to drive as any of the others on the market.... But that was before the new model came out so it might be different now

----------


## plum

> Plum put her on gas, you will laugh at the servo every time.

  And where does the gas tank go?

----------


## Marc

Under the tray I suppose?

----------


## ringtail

Isuzu Dmax all day. Easily the best, trouble free CRD on the market. Truck proven engine, big inside, awesome tow vehicle and 8lt/100 km

----------


## sol381

ive got a 2010 triton..had it about 18 months..never had any dramas,,,heaps of room inside..pick one up easily under 20 grand..maybe even 15

----------


## Marc

They seem nice, never heard of them. The second hand ute lose a lot of value. 
I wouldn't mind a crew cab one.
this review comparing all the best ute available may help
x http://www.caradvice.com.au/388419/u...agen-amarok-2/

----------


## METRIX

Had a D40, don't go there, this car was the biggest piece of crap ever, problems with gearbox, exhaust, turbo's, you name it, this thing was rubbish., underpowered, small dated interior, noisy, terrible ride quality.
Had a 2006 Hilux extra cab, Manual V6 this was very good, it  did have a clutch problem (well documented with these models) but apart  from that it was faultless. 
I now have a 2014 Ranger supercab Manual tub, it's been no problems apart from the dud battery, drives like a car rather than a commercial, I think the initial 2012 ones suffered a few issues, so the BT50 probably had same issues as these are the same car, except the BT was hit with the ugly stick, but as said Mazda don't seem to put much emphasis on dealing with their customers problems, I have a mate who has a 2015 single cab drop side, and he loves it, no problems. 
I also have a 2013 Colorado single cab Auto drop side, this has also been very good, lacks a little power compared to the Ranger but still pulls along ok, the Auto is good in the city, which is a pita in the ranger, 6 speed maunal and Diesel to many gear changes,  
I usually start off in 2nd, straight to 4th then 6th, the Colorado 4cyl is rated to almost the same power as the Ranger 5cyl but it is sluggish in 6th, the Ranger pulls hard in 6th from anything over 70, Colorado box lock you out of 6th at anything under about 80-90. 
If I was going to buy again, I like the new Ranger, still don't like the look of the ungraded BT50, hence lower sales ans resale value even though they are cheaper then the Ranger, I was always a Hilux fan, have had 3 of them over the years, and am warming to the look of the new one, still looks like a guinea pig IMO, they were all reliable and did the job, but a bit thirsty. 
I would take a look at the DMAX or Colorado, same car different engine.
Amarok looks nice, but expensive, they have had their fair share of problems, will be interested to see how the little 2.0 twin turbo engine lasts the distance, that's a lot of car for a small engine to push around, with the turbo's constanlty spinning up. 
My mate has a Ranger, and drove the Amarok, said it was fantastic, with the 8 speed auto, VW suffer from bad service and lack of parts (4 people I know have various VW and they all said the same service is a pita), they are more concerned with selling numbers rather than service, hence their dodgy golf fiasco. 
If I was looking at something for the kids, consider the ancap rating of the older vehicles, some had very low rating, and were basically guaranteed to injure you or occupant if in a semi decent accident.

----------


## sol381

i think spottie is looking for a car 6 to 7 years old tho...

----------


## Marc

Mm ... Metrix confirmed my inclination for the ranger.

----------


## METRIX

How much do you want to spend ? 
Colorado of 2009 are very different to the newer style, same for ranger, basically same for all ates now, the previous models were small interiors compared to the upgraded ones which grew in size, Hiux was still ok sized at 2099.

----------


## METRIX

> Mm ... Metrix confirmed my inclination for the ranger.

  The new one looks nice I was going to trade in but with the 50 or so models available, I wanted a supercab, 4WD XLT cab chassis Auto, can't get it, have to get a tub or manual, then remove the tub and replace with tray and the price has gone through the roof now, which keeps the 2nd hand prices good, but these ute's are silly prices for the high spec models. 
Same for Hilux, these segment are really catering for the single cab basic model, or the dual cab family wagon, this is where the better valued models are, I see heaps of XLT 4WD around for tradies, but they don't cater for this off the shelf.

----------


## Spottiswoode

Thanks all. Yeah, the new shape rangers are still a bit out of price range. I'd definitely be in the hunt for one if they weren't (I have a slight ford bias). I've driven the old and new colorados and wasn't fussed on the old shape, a bit small. Driven a triton, but being the poverty pack auto wasn't that flash, especially on turbo lag.  
I think in my mind I've narrowed it down to either D40 or hilux in the $15-18k range. I guess the toss up comes down to the poor reports on navara, and the price hike for a Toyota.

----------


## Marc

If the Ranger is out, go Toyota anytime. Why not a Landcruiser?

----------


## Godzilla73

If you're even remotely thinking of getting a Ranger I'd order now or get a demo second hand. 2017 models will have a DPF and Adblue which Ford has had trouble with on the Everest.

----------


## METRIX

> Thanks all. Yeah, the new shape rangers are still a bit out of price range. I'd definitely be in the hunt for one if they weren't (I have a slight ford bias). I've driven the old and new colorados and wasn't fussed on the old shape, a bit small. Driven a triton, but being the poverty pack auto wasn't that flash, especially on turbo lag.  
> I think in my mind I've narrowed it down to either D40 or hilux in the $15-18k range. I guess the toss up comes down to the poor reports on navara, and the price hike for a Toyota.

  Personally I would take the hilux any day over the Nissan.

----------


## Spottiswoode

I'm going to have to drive both and check them out.  
We do have an R51 Pathfinder at home, which is one of the appealing aspects for the Navara D40, having twins. (Could have let that out earlier, but didn't want to bias comments :P ) Haven't had any problems with the Pathfinder and find it a good family truck - I am aware it is built on a truck platform, but certainly appeared better value and space than a Prado.

----------


## woodbe

Seen a few bent Tritons outback.  :Smilie:  The Pajero is dead in the water. 
Pathfinder was good until the latest release, no separate chassis now. More of a SUV than 4x4 now. 
We have had a Prado since 2008 and it has been a great outback/offroad vehicle. We've bounced it all over SA dirt roads and a few interstate trips. Probably good for another 8 years once we replace the tired bilstein suspension. Hopefully there will be a better Prado by then, not a fan of the current model, but it's mechanically very similar, just looks clunky. 
Also worth considering the Landcruiser 70 series, in its various forms of ute, twin cab and wagon. Mate has a 79 series and it has been bulletproof. Gets used on the farm everyday and then heads off for camping trips all over Australia.

----------


## Marc

I can also vouch for the Prado. I have the imported version, brought myself from Japan. Boy that was an adventure ... anyway... tows a 20 footer like it's a load of firewood, crosses mud and water and sand anywhere providing you are not in a hurry. 3L turbo diesel, 3 diff, diff lock, high and low, LPG on gas, raised body and suspension, 3" exhaust and a whole lot of other stuff, and that is why I am still driving her after 250,000k (bought with 15k or was it 30k not sure) 
If I had to change it I would try to find a low K Landcruiser V8 and put it on gas. The V8 are usually city sleekers or horse float folks and not bush bashers who think that a 4wd must be diesel or it is not one. 
Problem is that if I buy a city Landcruiser, I will have to revisit all those modifications. They will be way easier and I will not have to hear for the nth time "oh but it is imported" aaaaaaaah :Gaah: , but they will amount to some serious money and I probably end up paying as much as a fully optioned Ford Ranger after the dust has settled ... or the mud fallen off or .... anyway ... mm ... I think I'll get to 400,000k and will still be undecided ha ha.

----------


## dmac

We recently lost our 2009 Hilux to a Roo hit on the Barton Highway. It was a nice little single cab,V6 SR Auto trans trayback ute, gone to heaven now. 
So I've also been watching this thread as looking for another one. Not a work ute for hauling the tools around, more the hobby farm ute. I also have the Ranger at the top of my list ATM. 
What annoy's me is that I want;
Single cab (or slightly bigger but not dual cab)
2 wheel drive
V6 (or bigger than a 2L quad turbo diesel)
Auto (misses and kids)
Tray back 
No one seems to make one anymore, you always seem to have to go to a 4 x 4 to get the larger engine and auto and there's another $10k, so suddenly it's $50k for a cab chassis. 
There my ute rant. 
Might just get a late model Falcon tray back before they disappear. 
Dave.

----------


## METRIX

> We recently lost our 2009 Hilux to a Roo hit on the Barton Highway. It was a nice little single cab,V6 SR Auto trans trayback ute, gone to heaven now. 
> So I've also been watching this thread as looking for another one. Not a work ute for hauling the tools around, more the hobby farm ute. I also have the Ranger at the top of my list ATM. 
> What annoy's me is that I want;
> Single cab (or slightly bigger but not dual cab)
> 2 wheel drive
> V6 (or bigger than a 2L quad turbo diesel)
> Auto (misses and kids)
> Tray back 
> No one seems to make one anymore, you always seem to have to go to a 4 x 4 to get the larger engine and auto and there's another $10k, so suddenly it's $50k for a cab chassis. 
> ...

  What about these ones ? 
The XLS 4x4 is the better value of the Ranger series, you can pick up a new shape with zero ks Auto 3.2L 4x4 for around $47K drive away

----------


## SilentButDeadly

I'll throw a spanner. 
Dual cab VW Transporter. 
The only dual cab that will fit five real people and a tonne on the back. 2 litre twin turbo TDI is available and it comes in front and AWD. Your budget will get you a decently recent T5 version. Quirky no doubt but not rubbish when they come with a decent service history...I've been running a T4 version for over 15 years and you'd not catch me buying any other dual cab ute...they are too small in the back and the tray is mostly decorative. 
No-one I know who works with the current Ranger in their fleet rates them in any way...given the choice they'll take the Amarok or Triton over the Ranger. Our fleet now has new Hilux and Fortuner in it...but I haven't used them. 
By the way...next version of the Amarok will get V6 petrol engine as an option.

----------


## ringtail

Colorado upto to 2010 = Dmax . After 2010 Colorado uses rubbishy Italian vomit diesel
Rodeo upto 2010 = Dmax
Dmax changed to new shape in 2012
VW make good product but lack in service. I've service many with 400k on them
Rangers and BT50's are experiencing the no oil pressure nightmares = do not service yourself 
Hilux  - older D4D engines are rubbish and the new 2.8's are unproven
Nissans - just no
BT50's upto 2010 ( From memory) are all Mazda and use their own 3.0 lt diesel with very few problems. Change over to 5cyl volvo engines have caused dramas for rangers and BT50's
Tritons huge turbo lag
All petrol variants of the above are fine. 
Cruisers = toyota tax and bad value for money

----------


## METRIX

> Colorado upto to 2010 = Dmax . After 2010 Colorado uses rubbishy Italian vomit diesel

  My one has 50k+ never had any issues "ÿet" but the diesel is a very noisy one !!   

> Rangers and BT50's are experiencing the no oil pressure nightmares = do not service yourself

  This is a known issue, it's the engine design with a variable delivery oil pump based on RPM instead of a fixed pump, the oil needs to be primed or it simply wont pump it leading to destruction.
To avoid the problem you have 10 minutes from emptying the old oil, to replace with new oil, the recommendation is to only have it serviced by authorised mechanic. 
 Like anything the engines are getting too complicated for their own good, a lot of it has to do with EURO standards, the manufacturers have to overly complicate the engine to simply pass the standards. 
Bring on the future of electric motors and get rid of the mechanical nightmares of modern engines, can't wait for the day when we are complaining that your new ute only has 400Kw at the wheels instead of 600  :Smilie:   :Smilie:     

> All petrol variants of the above are fine.

  Agree

----------


## Marc

Which support the idea that diesel is for highway trucks and for those on 50,000 + K a year. The rest get petrol and put it on LPG.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Colorado upto to 2010 = Dmax . After 2010 Colorado uses rubbishy Italian vomit diesel
> Rodeo upto 2010 = Dmax
> Dmax changed to new shape in 2012
> VW make good product but lack in service. I've service many with 400k on them
> Rangers and BT50's are experiencing the no oil pressure nightmares = do not service yourself 
> Hilux  - older D4D engines are rubbish and the new 2.8's are unproven
> Nissans - just no
> BT50's upto 2010 ( From memory) are all Mazda and use their own 3.0 lt diesel with very few problems. Change over to 5cyl volvo engines have caused dramas for rangers and BT50's
> Tritons huge turbo lag
> ...

  Doesn't leave much option! 
They can't all be rubbish, there are thousands of these things out on the roads. If half of them were as bad as you say then there would only be 2year old utes on the road all the rest would have been scrapped.

----------


## sol381

tritons have turbo lag? what turbo.............................................  ..lag

----------


## r3nov8or

> Which support the idea that diesel is for highway trucks and for those on 50,000 + K a year. The rest get petrol and put it on LPG.

  
RACV RoyalAuto - Where has all the LPG gone?

----------


## ringtail

> Doesn't leave much option! 
> They can't all be rubbish, there are thousands of these things out on the roads. If half of them were as bad as you say then there would only be 2year old utes on the road all the rest would have been scrapped.

  All vehicles experience problems. Your objective is to choose a vehicle that has less problems than others or problems that are easier and cheaper to fix than others. Unfortunately, cars are designed by idiots trying to out do the idiots that work for other car makers. Hence the ridiculous pathetic excuses we have for cars theses days. You can and will get good service out of any car as long as you spend the money on them. Neglect them and you are asking for trouble. Like I said earlier, if you want a turbo diesel go Isuzu. Anything petrol is fine. Petrols are now what diesels used to be. Utterly reliable, moderately fuel efficient and have a very long service life. Modern diesels are good when they go and horrible when plagued by electronic and emission gremlins. Buying the right turbo diesel is the key. Older toyotas are good but hardly good value for money. $35k for a TD 100 series cruiser with 400 thou on the clock is not good value. Did I mention toyota tax ?  Ford Rangers and BT50's in 5 cylinder versions won't self prime after draining the engine oil for 10 minutes. Therefore = no oil pressure = bang. Just google it, lots of examples. D4D Hiluxs and prados have crook injector seals that allow combustion gas to enter the rocker cover and turn to sludge which eventually makes it way to the sump where it blocks the oil pump pick up screen. = oil starvation to mains and they then throw a leg out of bed. Mitsubishis are plagued by diesel particulate filter issues upto 2010 when they deleted the DPF completely. Nissan diesels in navaras have massive timing chain failure issues and everyone knows about the overboosting and fuel lean out explosions with 3.0 lt patrols. All of these problems can be overcome by spending money to rectify or modify. Notice how all these issues are with diesels. Not to say some petrols don't have issues but these are mainly with stupid design associated with replacing common items not reliability. Older diesels are a much safer bet but are much slower, less powerful and use more fuel. Now, one can either just ignore all the issues and buy whatever makes you happy. Millions do. Or you can do your head in figuring out what to buy. Just don't buy a jeep, ever. Looking at what you want, I would go a Dmax or Rodeo turbo diesel dual cab Auto. I just bought a 2011 Dmax dual can auto with 135k on the clock in mint condition with full service history for $25.5 k.

----------


## ringtail

> tritons have turbo lag? what turbo.............................................  ..lag

  indeed. Some report it to be dangerous. Can be minimised with a electronic mod to the fly by wire throttle.

----------


## METRIX

> . Just don't buy a jeep, ever..

  Yes I have herd they are horribly unreliable.  ACCC investigates Jeepâs parent company FCA on advise to car owners  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVM3QX2GPjQ

----------


## Marc

I installed a Hyclone (yes I know) to get a better mix of the LPG in the air intake and the fringe benefit was a reduced turbo lag.  :Whatonearth:

----------


## ringtail

Yu running a diesel gas system Marc ?

----------


## ringtail

> Yes I have herd they are horribly unreliable.  ACCC investigates Jeepâ€™s parent company FCA on advise to car owners  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVM3QX2GPjQ

  Oh man, the stories I could tell you about the 10yo jeeps sold as new cars in Australia. They're meant to be longer on one side than the other aren't they ? Shudder.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> tritons have turbo lag? what turbo.............................................  ..lag

  I really giggled at this. The previous model ( ie. The one just replaced) had what really was an epic engine (not so much lag) wedged into a chassis made to suit the output of a pit pony... hilarious fun 
However, if one wants turbo lag....Great Wall. OMFG. The one time I drove one...the lag nearly got me killed. So then I put in an OHS warning to the fleet manager...and the daft things very quickly got dropped from the fleet. Upside of paperwork. Who'd have thought?

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Looking at what you want, I would go a Dmax or Rodeo turbo diesel dual cab Auto. I just bought a 2011 Dmax dual can auto with 135k on the clock in mint condition with full service history for $25.5 k.

  i hear what you are saying, and taking on board the risks. Unfortunately the budget won't stretch to a new shape dmax, and I've driven the old shape auto Colorado and it was horrid. I'm happy to be corrected on the old shape dmax being different to the Colorado, but am assuming they are the same under the skin. I'm fairly keen to keep with a vehicle that has a clutch too.

----------


## phild01

> i hear what you are saying, and taking on board the risks. Unfortunately the budget won't stretch to a new shape dmax, and I've driven the old shape auto Colorado and it was horrid. I'm happy to be corrected on the old shape dmax being different to the Colorado, but am assuming they are the same under the skin. I'm fairly keen to keep with a vehicle that has a clutch too.

  The old Rodeo is the old Isuzu Dmax isn't it!

----------


## woodbe

> D4D Hiluxs and prados have crook injector seals that allow combustion gas to enter the rocker cover and turn to sludge which eventually makes it way to the sump where it blocks the oil pump pick up screen. = oil starvation to mains and they then throw a leg out of bed.

  Pre 2008 there were some faulty injector seals, yes. Probably all repaired or blown up by now  :Biggrin:  
Routine maintenance includes inspection of the pickup screen at every oil change if you have it checked by a reasonable service centre. Its a rare event that the D4D fails if it is properly serviced and inspected. Sure, if you don't, then the bills will eventually come in heavy. If you don't want to go down the reasonable service route, just get a pre D4D, they are a bit gutless but bulletproof. Our D4D pickup screen is clean as a whistle, 8 years old and bumped and scraped all over the outback. 
If you scare yourself by reading owners failure reports on the internet you will never buy anything. lol. Like I wouldn't buy a Jeep, but our neighbour has had one for years now and zero issues. The issue with the owners reports is that you basically only hear the complaints, and some are because of owner issues like people bending ute chassis by doing stupid things. You don't hear so many happy owner reports because its just boring, people only get agitated to post when they have a problem. hohum

----------


## ringtail

Totally agree with that. One of the worst things one can do is go through all the forums. Only the problems are talked up. I see cameras on a stalk are standard issue for those that work on D4D's. have a look up in the sump for pick up sludge  :Biggrin:  Fortunately for me I still have very strong ties to the industry and see all this crap first hand at various workshops around the traps. The problems are real but not every car suffers them.  The ute chassis bending is the latest thing doing the rounds.

----------


## ringtail

> The old Rodeo is the old Isuzu Dmax isn't it!

  Yep.  
What was horrid about Spots ? Mine drives great, pulls like a train. Suspension is floaty but it's all stock and going in the bin soon  :Biggrin:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> Yes I have herd they are horribly unreliable.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVM3QX2GPjQ

  
somehow I got from that video...... to this -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A43JOxLa5MM

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Yep.  
> What was horrid about Spots ? Mine drives great, pulls like a train. Suspension is floaty but it's all stock and going in the bin soon

  hated the auto and the way it shifted, just seemed really ancient compared to modern autos, reminded me of the auto box in the 74 galant I had when I first got my licence. I definitely wouldn't be buying an auto. maybe with a manual it would have been better.

----------


## Marc

> Yu running a diesel gas system Marc ?

  Yep, marginal improvement, not worth the money unless heavily subsidised ... a bit like wind turbines. A lot of wind.  :Smilie:

----------


## ringtail

Indeed. I have wondered if anyone has taken a diesel and run it on straight gas. Gas loves high compression and actually get a good burn if squeezed hard enough. 16:1 + is about right for gas so......

----------


## ringtail

> hated the auto and the way it shifted, just seemed really ancient compared to modern autos, reminded me of the auto box in the 74 galant I had when I first got my licence. I definitely wouldn't be buying an auto. maybe with a manual it would have been better.

  Ahhh ok. I haven't tried mine in "power" mode to see how it changes the shift points. In normal mode it's a bit doughy with really light throttle. Give it some berries and it's fine. Think carefully about ruling out a Auto. A clutch is absolutely guaranteed to wear out and need replacing as is the dual mass flywheel the clutch bolts to ( if diesel) . Average cost to convert back to a normal flywheel is about $3k. Then you have the actual gearbox which may or may not require rebuilding at some stage. Auto should last the life of the vehicle with nothing but oil changes. I'm not sure if the auto can be played with flash tuning wise. I know the new Dmax 5 speed can, not sure about the older 4 speed.

----------


## Marc

> Indeed. I have wondered if anyone has taken a diesel and run it on straight gas. Gas loves high compression and actually get a good burn if squeezed hard enough. 16:1 + is about right for gas so......

   We used to convert large diesel generators to natural gas. De rating the injection to a very small amount for ignition. 
Doing that on a vehicle would require a variable and very reliable supply of LPG. Current injection or fumigation systems are very crude and would not work unless for constant speed.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Ahhh ok. I haven't tried mine in "power" mode to see how it changes the shift points. In normal mode it's a bit doughy with really light throttle. Give it some berries and it's fine. Think carefully about ruling out a Auto. A clutch is absolutely guaranteed to wear out and need replacing as is the dual mass flywheel the clutch bolts to ( if diesel) . Average cost to convert back to a normal flywheel is about $3k. Then you have the actual gearbox which may or may not require rebuilding at some stage. Auto should last the life of the vehicle with nothing but oil changes. I'm not sure if the auto can be played with flash tuning wise. I know the new Dmax 5 speed can, not sure about the older 4 speed.

  I don't mind driving newer auto boxes as much. Given I don't do a lot of stop start heavy traffic where I drive and enjoy driving I'd just much prefer a manual, especially as a second car (truck). Our other car is an auto, and so are all the work vehicles I drive and new autos are pretty good - maybe I'm just old school wanting three pedals!

----------


## ringtail

I hear ya. I do like driving my work van. Offroad, auto all day long.

----------


## METRIX

> I don't mind driving newer auto boxes as much. Given I don't do a lot of stop start heavy traffic where I drive and enjoy driving I'd just much prefer a manual, especially as a second car (truck). Our other car is an auto, and so are all the work vehicles I drive and new autos are pretty good - maybe I'm just old school wanting three pedals!

  I was always a Manual driver, because I preferred it, and Auto's were slush boxes which never seemed to be in the right gear, with the newer semi smarter ones with 6 or more gears they are pretty good, in city driving I prefer an Auto any day.
Coupled with a high torque diesel, some people are surprised when you beat them off the lights,  :Smilie:   :Smilie:

----------


## Spottiswoode

> I was always a Manual driver, because I preferred it, and Auto's were slush boxes which never seemed to be in the right gear, with the newer semi smarter ones with 6 or more gears they are pretty good, in city driving I prefer an Auto any day.
> Coupled with a high torque diesel, some people are surprised when you beat them off the lights,

   Yeah, I've found modern autos pretty good and if I had a city/traffic commute I'd definitely get an auto.

----------


## Tonzz

What age are your kids? If theyre sitting in back seat, a dual cab is fine for shopping school etc but sitting upright like something is stuck up your a**e is not fun

----------


## barnes

> I was always a Manual driver, because I preferred it, and Auto's were slush boxes which never seemed to be in the right gear, with the newer semi smarter ones with 6 or more gears they are pretty good, in city driving I prefer an Auto any day.
> Coupled with a high torque diesel, some people are surprised when you beat them off the lights,

  Manual gear box is more important in snowy or slippery conditions where you can brake using gears and engine and when it's not I don't see a lot of use in it. I used to drive only manuals overseas, but here I can't drive a manual. I just can't change gears with my left hand (I used to do it with the right hand for 25 years plus). I don't feel comfortable, so only auto.

----------


## Barboots

I believe that's an outdated point of difference, and if still slightly remnant it is well overpowered by the smoother tractive power delivery of an automatic.  
The programming of the ABS, having 4x discs instead of rear drums, and quality tyres will have more impact than gearbox type. 
Cheers, 
Steve

----------


## Spottiswoode

At the moment kids are between preschool and late primary school. As I'm looking at a 'second' vehicle it wouldnt typically be a long distance ride.

----------


## ringtail

> I believe that's an outdated point of difference, and if still slightly remnant it is well overpowered by the smoother tractive power delivery of an automatic.  
> The programming of the ABS, having 4x discs instead of rear drums, and quality tyres will have more impact than gearbox type. 
> Cheers, 
> Steve

  Here's the kicker. All 4x4 dual cab utes have rear drums. Every make that I looked at. VW, Nissan, Holden, Isuzu, Mits, Ford, Mazda. Something to do with Thailands commercial vehicle laws apparently.

----------


## barnes

> Here's the kicker. All 4x4 dual cab utes have rear drums. Every make that I looked at. VW, Nissan, Holden, Isuzu, Mits, Ford, Mazda. Something to do with Thailands commercial vehicle laws apparently.

  I think SsangYong Actyon Sport has rear disc brakes. Cant find info - I might be wrong though.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Here's the kicker. All 4x4 dual cab utes have rear drums. Every make that I looked at. VW, Nissan, Holden, Isuzu, Mits, Ford, Mazda. Something to do with Thailands commercial vehicle laws apparently.

  VW Transporter 4motion is disc and coils all round...same goes for the front drive version. 
VW Amarok is not built in Thailand - Argentina and South Africa.

----------


## METRIX

> Here's the kicker. All 4x4 dual cab utes have rear drums. Every make that I looked at. VW, Nissan, Holden, Isuzu, Mits, Ford, Mazda. Something to do with Thailands commercial vehicle laws apparently.

  The  reason for keeping drums  is overseas tax laws, in Thailand to be classed as a commercial  the vehicle must have some of those old features.

----------


## ringtail

Yep. A bit of give and take. Drums are far more expensive to manufacture and are heavier but they are more efficient than discs on the rear and offer a better handbrake than anything other than a transmission based brake ( which is normally a drum on the tailshaft, ala old cruisers and patrols). However, for the Aussie market I don't see why thai laws or incentives come into play. For their own market sure, but ours .....not so much. Give me rear discs all day. I hate changing brake shoes. Soooo 80's. And in the case of Isuzu, the new Dmax has drums but the MUX has discs. Same factory, same mechanicals, same chassis and driveline yet one has drums and one has discs. Crazy.

----------


## woodbe

Prado has a combo on the rear - drum for handbrake, disk for brakes. Best of both.

----------


## ringtail

> Prado has a combo on the rear - drum for handbrake, disk for brakes. Best of both.

  Yeah nah. Prado has discs but  Hilux has drums. The handbrake shoes are tiny in those types of set ups and it's very common for people to just drive off with the handbrake on. Commodores were shockers for it. They are bigger than those used in cars but still pissweak.

----------


## phild01

> Yeah nah. Prado has discs but  Hilux has drums. The handbrake shoes are tiny in those types of set ups and it's very common for people to just drive off with the handbrake on. Commodores were shockers for it. They are bigger than those used in cars but still pissweak.

  I have these too and not happy.

----------


## ringtail

Yep. Don't try and use them as an emergency brake either. Just tears them to pieces. Parking brake only and even then they need to be adjusted properly to work well. In theory they should never need adjusting as they only get used once the vehicle has stopped and the drum portion never wears for the same reason. However, they are so ineffective that people drive with them on and so........any adjustment is normally due to cable stretch caused by eager handle reefers  :Biggrin:

----------


## Barboots

Yeah Prado handbrakes (and those on Cruiser's too) are very effective between your last service and the first day you drive through snot.  :Wink:  Actually I always envied those "little" Patrol trans mounted brakes. Sure they're small, but there's gearing in between which makes them very effective.  
Cheers, 
Steve

----------


## Bedford

Don't be fooled by transmission brakes, fine where each wheel has equal traction, but worthless if parked with one wheel on a banana skin.

----------


## woodbe

lol. 
If I pull on the handbrake (or lamelessly forget to release it) there is no way the Prado is leaving. Maybe people have been leaving the handbrake on first click while driving and overheating the shoes or something. Ours operates the same after 8 years. You cannot leave with the handbrake on, it's manual and it will stall, reminding you that you have forgotten something...  :Biggrin:  
As far as seriously pulling on the handbrake on a 4by while moving at any rate, dont do it. Everything is hooked together and you will either break something or careen off the road.

----------


## ringtail

There were rumours around years ago that if one pulled the handbrake on a transmission type while moving the vehicle would roll. Dunno, never seen it but there maybe some truth to it.

----------


## woodbe

Maybe, if it happened to be cornering at the time over bumps. 
Handbrake turns work well if you only lock the rear wheels. Won't work on a 4wd. The best mod on my Datto 1600 was a hydraulic handbrake.  
Skip through the yabbering, there's some fun here:

----------


## ringtail

Good way to spend half a day

----------


## woodbe

Things look like changing manufacturer hookups with the utes:  Mazda to team with Isuzu for next-gen ute 
IT SEEMS manufacturers of one-tonne utes are swapping partners as if on a  hokey reality TV show. The latest to throw its keys in the bowl is  Mazda, who ends its rocky relationship with Ford by announcing it will  partner with Isuzu for its next-generation BT-50. 
So Mazda DMAX and Isuzu BT50  :Biggrin:

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Things look like changing manufacturer hookups with the utes:  Mazda to team with Isuzu for next-gen ute 
> IT SEEMS manufacturers of one-tonne utes are swapping partners as if on a  hokey reality TV show. The latest to throw its keys in the bowl is  Mazda, who ends its rocky relationship with Ford by announcing it will  partner with Isuzu for its next-generation BT-50. 
> So Mazda DMAX and Isuzu BT50

  Wonder what that means for the Colorado?

----------


## Bedford

> There were rumours around years ago that if one pulled the handbrake on a transmission type while moving the vehicle would roll. Dunno, never seen it but there maybe some truth to it.

  I'm not aware of that, but they can bust themselves off the transfer case easy enough. 
The big danger with transmission type brakes is that they only hold the tailshaft/crownwheel and pinion. 
Plenty of people have jacked up a wheel when parked on a hill to find the vehicle run away, the moment you take weight of the wheel it will turn backwards to the wheel on the ground. The wheel on the ground is free to rotate down hill with no resistance from the hand/parking brake as it does not restrict the differential action in the final drive. 
This can happen even by parking on loose stones etc if steep enough, trouble is it often doesn't do it immediately................ 
Just ask me how I know!! :Biggrin:

----------


## manofaus

Defender 130?? cheap to run, true GVM 3.5t without the need for a suspension upgrade, disc brakes, full time 4wd. Never ages.
Just a Note, when you get or look at a dual cab, check the GVM. Most utes are lucky to go over 3t. Have bought a fleet of dmax autos. Sure its a 1 ton ute, but thats without fuel, floormats (I kid you not) tray, tow bar or driver.

----------


## Spottiswoode

For me the payload isn't really a concern, nor the max towing capacity. The most common item in the back is likely to be push bikes or a bit of building stuff. The tow load would currently be a box trailer load of mulch/topsoil, an unbraked camper trailer or if we upgrade a small-ish caravan

----------


## ringtail

> I'm not aware of that, but they can bust themselves off the transfer case easy enough. 
> The big danger with transmission type brakes is that they only hold the tailshaft/crownwheel and pinion. 
> Plenty of people have jacked up a wheel when parked on a hill to find the vehicle run away, the moment you take weight of the wheel it will turn backwards to the wheel on the ground. The wheel on the ground is free to rotate down hill with no resistance from the hand/parking brake as it does not restrict the differential action in the final drive. 
> This can happen even by parking on loose stones etc if steep enough, trouble is it often doesn't do it immediately................ 
> Just ask me how I know!!

  Totally agree there Bedford. Would work well if the rear diff was locked or a spool  :Biggrin:

----------


## ringtail

Defender. Shudder  :Tongue:

----------


## Spottiswoode

Had some time to kill this morning. Dropped into a car yard that had a few different models. Didn't have enough time to drive any but sat in a D22, D40,last model hilux, old shape ranger, current BT50. Out of those D22 and old ranger are out being too small, hilux was ok, D40 had good space as did the bt50. Now I'll need to drive hilux and D40. BT50 still out of price range.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Wonder what that means for the Colorado?

  Colorado is fine...it is being released in the US.  
It is also worth pointing out that the Navara is being rebodied as the Renault Alaskan and also used as the basis for the as yet unnamed Mercedes-Benz dual cab.  Both are due an Oz release. 
Jeep is due to release a dual cab Wrangler in 2018. The Land Rover Defender will be back in 2019. 
And Hyundai are a strong chance to throw a dual cab out before 2020. 
And the Dodge Ram will be here next year...

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Defender. Shudder

  Only when the engine is running... 
I loved my old Defender...nothing more capable out of the box. And I found them reliable if they were properly looked after. The last one I had only died cause I killed it. Unfortunately, the NVH were not great.

----------


## Marc

I like the Range Rover.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> I like the Range Rover.

  Wanna buy one? I've got a former project (1982 two door) that is currently masquerading as yard art...

----------


## ringtail

> Only when the engine is running... 
> I loved my old Defender...nothing more capable out of the box. And I found them reliable if they were properly looked after. The last one I had only died cause I killed it. Unfortunately, the NVH were not great.

  I really like them but would never own one. They look tough, they do the business but they're British. How they won the war I'll never know  :Tongue:  . Current ones with a boatload of km on the clock are still pricey too. I've worked on a lot of rangies and discos. Around 1996 was the last good one ( well, decent one) injected with the 4 speed ZF auto. I reckon an old one with a LS1 motor and auto would kick ass.

----------


## ringtail

Put the first tank of diesel through the Dmax. 10.2 lt/100. Happy with that. Should get 8's on the highway all day.

----------


## Marc

> Wanna buy one? I've got a former project (1982 two door) that is currently masquerading as yard art...

   Mm I guess it is junk already. 
No I like the new ones, but at 200k I rather buy a Bentley

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> I reckon an old one with a LS1 motor and auto would kick ass.

  Having once owned a Series 3 Stage 1 (Series Landie with Range Rover permanent 4x4 driveline) with a much modified 4.4 L V8 and the 4 speed manual box...it would indeed kick @@@@... probably mine.

----------


## ringtail

The deefer would be perfect with an Isuzu engine. Oh wait, the Army uses them.  :Biggrin:  Still not that cheap to buy at the army auctions though

----------


## Barboots

> If I pull on the handbrake (or lamelessly forget to release it) there is no way the Prado is leaving. Maybe people have been leaving the handbrake on first click while driving and overheating the shoes or something.

  Lol. Use it in deep muddy conditions for a while and see how it works afterwards.

----------


## Barboots

> Don't be fooled by transmission brakes, fine where each wheel has equal traction, but worthless if parked with one wheel on a banana skin.

  When parking on banana skins, engage 4WD.   :Wink:

----------


## woodbe

> Lol. Use it in deep muddy conditions for a while and see how it works afterwards.

  lol. Maintain the vehicle after putting it through deep mud. Been there, done that.

----------


## Bedford

> When parking on banana skins, engage 4WD.

  When engaging 4WD make sure any freewheel hubs are engaged ............... 
Unless you have 2 diff locks engaged you don't have 4WD  :Rolleyes:

----------


## Spottiswoode

> When engaging 4WD make sure any freewheel hubs are engaged ............... 
> Unless you have 2 diff locks engaged you don't have 4WD

  I remember going out and playing in the mud in my Suzuki Sierra once. Unusually, it got stuck in one spot and couldn't work out why until after being dragged out and when it was time to get back on the road only one hub needed unlocking. One locked hub, no locking diff = one wheel drive.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

If anyone is happy to wait until 2018 and can tolerate the thought of a Jeep...the dual cab Wrangler ute is coming...and if nothing else the tray looks a decent size

----------


## ringtail

Good lord ! WTF is that pile of bile ? Even if it looked awesome it's still a jeep. = bin

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Good lord ! WTF is that pile of bile ? Even if it looked awesome it's still a jeep. = bin

  Despite the fact they are trying to make it look ugly so you can't work out what it might be, it does really seem to have a pretty ordinary shape about it. 
NEws on the Colorado front: GM and Isuzu end pick-up truck tie-up
No more Isuzu, going to a US sourced model - what possibly could go wrong?

----------


## barnes

> Despite the fact they are trying to make it look ugly so you can't work out what it might be, it does really seem to have a pretty ordinary shape about it. 
> NEws on the Colorado front: GM and Isuzu end pick-up truck tie-up
> No more Isuzu, going to a US sourced model - what possibly could go wrong?

  And that's good. I can't buy a double-cab ute with an extended tray more than 1,5 meters, in the States for an extra buck or two it's a possibility on GM and other producers models. I hope this feature will be here when American designed models will show up. Worth the wait.

----------


## barnes

> Despite the fact they are trying to make it look ugly so you can't work out what it might be, it does really seem to have a pretty ordinary shape about it. 
> NEws on the Colorado front: GM and Isuzu end pick-up truck tie-up
> No more Isuzu, going to a US sourced model - what possibly could go wrong?

  And that's good. I can't buy a double-cab ute with an extended tray more than 1,5 meters here. In the States for an extra buck or two it's a possibility on GM and other producers models. I hope this feature will be here when American designed models will show up. Worth the wait.

----------


## ringtail

Another epic fail from GM. Oh well GM's loss is Mazda gain.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

GM will be fine...given future Colorado is now a US model there's enough volume to make in-house development worthwhile. It'll still be made in Thailand. 
Ford on the other hand...now needs to find either new markets or development partner for future Ranger.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> GM will be fine...given future Colorado is now a US model there's enough volume to make in-house development worthwhile. It'll still be made in Thailand. 
> Ford on the other hand...now needs to find either new markets or development partner for future Ranger.

  and the Everest. Given fords current position as top of the heap for Utes (at least in the media) that could be interesting. Theyll probably sit back and keep the same basics for the next 20 years while everyone else leaps ahead of them.

----------


## Spottiswoode

Well, after all the discussion above, some of it being on the original topic  :Biggrin: , I drove home in my 'new' ute today. Tested one last week, and while I was considering, it got sold. Looked at another on Friday but I had been owned by a tattooed flat brim hat wearing tradie who had been dragging around a trailer since new and given the interior a hard time and the 22" rims . Third one I looked at looked good, priced right, never towed anything and had a rhino coating on the tray. Now there is a D40 in the drive parked next to the R51 pathfinder, I could get past the extra $ for a hilux.

----------


## ringtail

Shudder. I hope you are one of the few that have a good run.

----------


## METRIX

> Shudder. I hope you are one of the few that have a good run.

   :2thumbsup:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

:Pics:

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Shudder. I hope you are one of the few that have a good run.

  Well, going off what you said the Hilux D4D was no good either  :Shock: . I'm alert, not alarmed as to the potential for issues.  
Bonus (?): Came with 4 spare wheels. While parked on the side of the road for sale it had 2 wheels knocked off. They had to get one from wreckers, plus the normal spare to get it home, then bought a set of 4 2nd hand.

----------


## ringtail

Yes, but I also said the Isuzu was the best. Truck proven. Good score on the wheels though. What year and how many km's ? Have your timing chain changed now and modified to a duplex chain. Or spend $12k when the chain breaks. And it will break.

----------


## METRIX

> Given fords current position as top of the heap for Utes (at least in the media) that could be interesting. Theyll probably sit back and keep the same basics for the next 20 years while everyone else leaps ahead of them.

  Doubt that, it's taken someone a long time to get anywhere near the Hilux sales, Ford aint going to give the inroads up easily. 
They just released the updated version of the Ranger, introducing a tech pack with features such as,  Adaptive Cruise Control, Forward Collision Warning, Lane Keep Assist, Lane Departure Warning, Reversing camera. 
Most of these features are only found on high end European passenger vehicles, it make the new Hilux already old tech. 
This adds to the standard features on the volume seller XLT  a number of the below were not on the previous XLT such as  
Sync2 with Sat Nav control
Mobile WiFi Hotspot
DAB Radio
8 inch colour touchscreen (this one looks like it belongs in the vehicle unlike the tack on one in the Hilux)
Rear park Sensors
Auto Rain sensing wipers
Projector Headlights
Tyre Pressure Monitors
240V power inverter
Folding heated exterior mirrors
Electrocromatic interior mirror
Dual 4.2"colour instrumentation screens
Dual Zone climate control
Auto High Beam

----------


## SilentButDeadly

If only the Ranger wasn't like driving Ned Kelly's hat... 
Ours is not to reason why. Merely to point and giggle.

----------


## METRIX

> If only the Ranger wasn't like driving Ned Kelly's hat... 
> Ours is not to reason why. Merely to point and giggle.

  Don't know which one you've driven, but mine drive better than any other Ute I've owned, and better than a lot of modern cars.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

Latest one...despite being relatively tall, i still have limited vision to the outside world. They drive well enough but poor visibility makes them bloody annoying to drive.  
Most of my colleagues who use the fleet agree...no more Rangers. Given their occupation this is somewhat ironic. 
Ours is not to reason why. Merely to point and giggle.

----------


## ringtail

> Doubt that, it's taken someone a long time to get anywhere near the Hilux sales, Ford aint going to give the inroads up easily. 
> They just released the updated version of the Ranger, introducing a tech pack with features such as,  Adaptive Cruise Control, Forward Collision Warning, Lane Keep Assist, Lane Departure Warning, Reversing camera. 
> Most of these features are only found on high end European passenger vehicles, it make the new Hilux already old tech. 
> This adds to the standard features on the volume seller XLT  a number of the below were not on the previous XLT such as  
> Sync2 with Sat Nav control
> Mobile WiFi Hotspot
> DAB Radio
> 8 inch colour touchscreen (this one looks like it belongs in the vehicle unlike the tack on one in the Hilux)
> Rear park Sensors
> ...

  And this is the problem with all cars these days. All of that crap except the reversing camera is just that, crap. Unnecessary garbage to sell "more car" instead of more cars. Put that list of crap up in the kimberly or the cape and it don't mean squat. Most of it will fail in a carpark somewhere anyway.  Yes I'm a Ludite when it comes to cars. All people should be forced to pass a driving test using a 3 on the tree Holden. That would sort the wheat from the chaff  :Biggrin:

----------


## METRIX

> And this is the problem with all cars these days. All of that crap except the reversing camera is just that, crap. Unnecessary garbage to sell "more car" instead of more cars. Put that list of crap up in the kimberly or the cape and it don't mean squat. Most of it will fail in a carpark somewhere anyway.  Yes I'm a Ludite when it comes to cars. All people should be forced to pass a driving test using a 3 on the tree Holden. That would sort the wheat from the chaff

  Agree and disagree, yes it's more stuff to sell cars but every car on the road is that nowadays, can't change that it's just technology changing most aspects of our lives. 
For my daily drive I prefer to have something nicer to drive around in, I spend a lot of time in the car so just because it's a tradies ute doesn't mean it has to be an agricultural vehicle.
99% of these will never leave the bitumen let alone end up in the Kimberley, and honestly I don;t want my tools being bashed around off road, and I don't want to have to remove all my tools so I can bash the vehicle around off road, it's a work vehicle, if I want that I will get a bush basher. 
At the end of the day, if you don't like any luxuries in a car there's plenty of low tech to choose from such as Great Wall's, Cherry and all that other unsafe garbage out there that your guaranteed to be severely injured in at the slightest sign of an accident, or you just buy the poverty version of the vehicle if looking at new. 
Had my one for a few years and none of the electronic features has ever failed to work (except a dud battery problem which has been replaced).
 I know a lot of other guys with Rangers and it's ugly sister the BT50 as tradies utes and none of them complain about any of the gadgets failing, and none of them complain about poor vision, I also don't have any poor vision problems driving it (not sure what's going on there). 
Just for the record below is my comments on the features of my current one and the newer features added on the latest one 
Sync2 with Sat Nav control - Good feature as you can search your phone for something without having to touch it, big bonus nowadays with the coppers out to bust anyone touching their phone, and it actually works in this vehicle.
Inbuilt satnav - never been a fan of these as to update them you usually have to pay some exorbitant fee to the OEM, I prefer a standalone GPS anyday with free map upgrades 
Mobile WiFi Hotspot - I can understand why this is there, these vehicles are daily drives for a lot of families, for me a gimmick 
DAB Radio - Fantastic feature and it's about time the OEM radio's can do DAB once you've had it standard FM is garbage 
8 inch colour touchscreen -  Yes and no if you have to touch it for everything can be dangerous taking your eyes of the road, thankfully everything is available via the steering buttons or Sync 
Rear park Sensors - Awesome feature for saving you hitting the hidden low poles they put everywhere in carparks these days and for reverse parking into tight spots, wouldn't have a vehicle of this size without it in the city, you can stick the reverse camera this adds much more practicality 
Auto Rain sensing wipers - Awesome feature, just another thing you don't have to worry about as it works so well, rain hits the window, wipers turn on to get rid of it, heavier rain hits the window wipers go faster, rain stops wipers stop brilliant 
Projector Headlights - Great feature for more focused low beam, the standard halogen lights were woeful (must admit that) but upgraded the globes to Osram Nightbreakers and the difference is amazing, no dazzling of other cars, this was no different to my Hilux's also had to upgrade the globes for the same reason,  
Tyre Pressure Monitors - Yeah guess I can see the value for the MOM daily driver, for me I tend to look at the tyres to see if there's a problem  :Smilie:  
240V power inverter - Great feature as it's factory fitted not sure how much power it can deliver, probably not a lot 
Folding heated exterior mirrors - folding part me thinks is a gimmic the heated part works fantastic on those cold mornings if the car's been outside and the mirrors are all condensed, hit the switch and the mirrors are clear in about 60 seconds saves smearing them all up making it impossible to see anything from them 
Electrocromatic interior mirror - Awesome when some clown is driving with their high beams on behind you, the mirror compensates for this automatically  
Dual 4.2"colour instrumentation screens This feature looks nice and it probably necessary in the new vehicle as you don;t need to go to the 8" touch screen 
Dual Zone climate control - I have this in the super cab and really I prefer regular single zone aircon, and I'm driving so I choose the temperature  :Smilie:  personally this is over complicating the task 
Auto High Beam - Good on those dark out of city roads, it dips your high beams automatically when oncoming traffic approaches

----------


## ringtail

My point is the dumming down of motorists is the end of the world.  :Biggrin:  Heaven forbid one must be able to turn the lights or wipers on by themselves. ABS, sure. Traction control, why not. All else is just fluff. Has never been needed before and isn't needed now.

----------


## woodbe

It's never about need. It's about want. Want makes better sales over need.

----------


## METRIX

The same could be said about anything, why have a dishwasher when your hands can do it, or an electric garage door, when you can easily get out of the car and open it yourself, or heaven forbid the day remote central locking was invented, how dumb are you if you can't insert a key and lift a handle. 
What about a nail gun, why cant you use a hammer, or electric sander when a block and a piece of paper can do the same.  
Face it, there are dumb drivers out there we all know that see them on a daily basis, I say bring on the gadgets but not at the expense of distracting the driver any more than they currently are playing with their phones. 
Don't worry there are still cars out there for you RT, search carpoint for cars under $2500.  Used cars in Queensland - Find cars for sale in Queensland - CarPoint Australia

----------


## ringtail

Bwahahahahaha, geez that's harsh man. You cut me deep. I'm not talking about keeping cars from the 80's but there is no doubt that since 2005 ish the humble motor car has definitely become more than just transport. And that's wrong. The development for the sake of development is just crazy and unwarranted. The only thing the eggheads have achieved is unreliability and added complexity and cost to the consumer. There in no need for it at all. The evolution from hammer to nailgun etc... is not a new concept and hasn't changed from when it was introduced. Sure it was revolutionary when it happened but it can't be improved on and despite many trying with gas guns etc... they have all accepted that they are done and dusted. Just variations on a theme now. There was once a time that  the only licence you could have was a manual. Now auto only is just fine. Why is that fine ? Surely if you are allowed to pilot a vehicle you must be able to drive every or any vehicle in that licence class. Special needs drivers exempt of course. Touch screen this and that, gps for those that can't read a map. Wifi hotspot ! WTF ! seriously? No no no no no. Just drive the frikken car. Hands free bluetooth is good. I like it. I don't want the car to try and avoid a collision, I can do that, obviously many can't because they are playing with their car gadgets whilst their ridiculous engine management tries to squeeze an extra fraction of a lt/100km while maintaining emissions at the detriment of every other system in the car. Ironically, engine life is compromised the most. But that's ok, designed to fail is the new black. People have tonnes of cash nowadays.  Having a comfortable car is fine and totally understandable but does all the other @@@@@ make it comfortable ? Nope. The old saying of "chrome won't get ya home" has never been more true. I have never seen so many issues with new cars as I have in the last 5 years. To the point where people are now installing engine data scan devices in modern 4x4's  just so they can reset the fault codes and take the vehicle out of limp mode in the middle of nowhere. Great leap forward ? Nope. Now there are rumblings that common rail diesels are done and dusted and will be outlawed. Turbo petrol is where it's at or going to be, apparently.  BMW goes from 3 turbos to 4 on it's diesel !!! More is better right ? Maybe they will slip a few more ratios in the gearbox at the same time. 12 is good right ? Where will it end ? Just nuts.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

Jeez, Ringtail, could you edit that post and make a few paragraphs?  
Wall
Of
Text   :Shock:

----------


## METRIX

> Bwahahahahaha, geez that's harsh man. You cut me deep. I'm not talking about keeping cars from the 80's but there is no doubt that since 2005 ish the humble motor car has definitely become more than just transport. And that's wrong. The development for the sake of development is just crazy and unwarranted. The only thing the eggheads have achieved is unreliability and added complexity and cost to the consumer. There in no need for it at all. The evolution from hammer to nailgun etc... is not a new concept and hasn't changed from when it was introduced. Sure it was revolutionary when it happened but it can't be improved on and despite many trying with gas guns etc... they have all accepted that they are done and dusted. Just variations on a theme now. There was once a time that  the only licence you could have was a manual. Now auto only is just fine. Why is that fine ? Surely if you are allowed to pilot a vehicle you must be able to drive every or any vehicle in that licence class. Special needs drivers exempt of course. Touch screen this and that, gps for those that can't read a map. Wifi hotspot ! WTF ! seriously? No no no no no. Just drive the frikken car. Hands free bluetooth is good. I like it. I don't want the car to try and avoid a collision, I can do that, obviously many can't because they are playing with their car gadgets whilst their ridiculous engine management tries to squeeze an extra fraction of a lt/100km while maintaining emissions at the detriment of every other system in the car. Ironically, engine life is compromised the most. But that's ok, designed to fail is the new black. People have tonnes of cash nowadays.  Having a comfortable car is fine and totally understandable but does all the other @@@@@ make it comfortable ? Nope. The old saying of "chrome won't get ya home" has never been more true. I have never seen so many issues with new cars as I have in the last 5 years. To the point where people are now installing engine data scan devices in modern 4x4's  just so they can reset the fault codes and take the vehicle out of limp mode in the middle of nowhere. Great leap forward ? Nope. Now there are rumblings that common rail diesels are done and dusted and will be outlawed. Turbo petrol is where it's at or going to be, apparently.  BMW goes from 3 turbos to 4 on it's diesel !!! More is better right ? Maybe they will slip a few more ratios in the gearbox at the same time. 12 is good right ? Where will it end ? Just nuts.

  HA HA HA  
Current problems will stop when they get rid of the fossil burning engines, and replace them with electric, Fossil engines are a thing of the past Euro standards are doing their best to kill them off, this is why diesel will die, and every new petrol car has a turbo, to keep emission down, then what thers nowhere to go except out the door. 
Tesla has already proved we don't need them, it's about time the others realise it as well, Then a new set of problems will start. 
Yes I agree about the Manual thing, but it's a sign of the times, people just want an Automatic nowadays, and the reason is 1st the kids these days come from Playstation and XBOX, all the cars are Auto, they don't want a Manual.
2nd the Auto's have got so much better than they were only just a few years ago, that they are actually bearable to drive now. 
Saying that my Ranger is a 6 speed manual, I have always had manuals cars, as much as I like the Manual these are a pain in the city traffic and 6 manual gears is simply too many, you are just forever changing, I can get away with using 3-4 of those gears. 
And what was wrong with that rusty thing, I though it looked cool, like a Core10 car.

----------


## MorganGT

> I'm not talking about keeping cars from the 80's

  80s? newfangled plastic crap! My daily driver was built in 1962, with 4 wheel unboosted drum brakes, power nothing, doesn't even have demisters. Works just fine.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> I know a lot of other guys with Rangers and it's ugly sister the BT50 as tradies utes and none of them complain about any of the gadgets failing, and none of them complain about poor vision, I also don't have any poor vision problems driving it (not sure what's going on there).

  You and your tradie mates don't understand the poor visibility thing because you aren't trying to drive them off road.  
As always, one groups dream car is another's anathema. 
Most dual cab utes to me are ridiculously compromised motor vehicles that are a triumph of marketing over common sense...but what do I know?  
Ours is not to reason why. Merely to point and giggle.

----------


## ringtail

> Jeez, Ringtail, could you edit that post and make a few paragraphs?  
> Wall
> Of
> Text

  I could but then it makes it easier quote. Gotta make you work  :Tongue:

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Most dual cab utes to me are ridiculously compromised motor vehicles that are a triumph of marketing over common sense...but what do I know?.

   Well, now that I've got a dual cab ute, I'm instantly more rugged and outdoorsy and tough despite working in an office - and I can take the family with me on my rigged outdoorsy adventures.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Well, now that I've got a dual cab ute, I'm instantly more rugged and outdoorsy and tough despite working in an office - and I can take the family with me on my rigged outdoorsy adventures.

  Hahahahahahahaaahaheeehee... 
Rigged outdoorsy activities strike me as something no more significant than taking your fully loaded and freshly polished camper trailer to the local big4. 
Ours is not to reason why. Merely to point and giggle.

----------


## ringtail

> HA HA HA  
> Current problems will stop when they get rid of the fossil burning engines, and replace them with electric, Fossil engines are a thing of the past Euro standards are doing their best to kill them off, this is why diesel will die, and every new petrol car has a turbo, to keep emission down, then what thers nowhere to go except out the door. 
> Tesla has already proved we don't need them, it's about time the others realise it as well, Then a new set of problems will start. 
> Yes I agree about the Manual thing, but it's a sign of the times, people just want an Automatic nowadays, and the reason is 1st the kids these days come from Playstation and XBOX, all the cars are Auto, they don't want a Manual.
> 2nd the Auto's have got so much better than they were only just a few years ago, that they are actually bearable to drive now. 
> Saying that my Ranger is a 6 speed manual, I have always had manuals cars, as much as I like the Manual these are a pain in the city traffic and 6 manual gears is simply too many, you are just forever changing, I can get away with using 3-4 of those gears. 
> And what was wrong with that rusty thing, I though it looked cool, like a Core10 car.

  The rusty car looks like a lada. Enough said.  
Electric cars will never replace fossil fuel power in Australia in the next 20 years unless there is some radical new battery tech that comes in. It will happen but not without 650 km range at 130 km/hr carrying 3 tonnes and  full capacity recharge in 1 minute . As is the norm now. It must be a like for like swap or a like for better swap at no extra expense or cheaper.  
Benz has seen the light re turbo petrols. I think it is the future or is that back to the future ? Diesels are done. Too expensive, too noisy, too sensitive to crap fuel, too strangled by EGR to meet emissions. I read a review the other day of a new Chinese 4b released. Haval I think. Turbo petrol, no diesel yet. Interesting.  
I choose auto all day as they are better around town, far superior offroad and will generally last the life of the vehicle. Yes they are worse on fuel and one does loose the spirit of driving but......As opposed to a manual which will definitely need a clutch which is a massive job in a 4x4, will have a dual mass flywheel which costs $3k on top of the clutch kit and you're more than likely to do a gearbox too of you drive it hard. I do love a manual though and my van is manual. However, gearbox out in 30 minutes, $160 for a clutch kit, machine the flywheel for $50, total job cost less than $500. $200 for a second hand box. Very cheap in the right application. Very expensive in the wrong application.

----------


## ringtail

> Well, now that I've got a dual cab ute, I'm instantly more rugged and outdoorsy and tough despite working in an office - and I can take the family with me on my rigged outdoorsy adventures.

  I think you can buy mud in a can now. Slop it on, all good.  :Biggrin:

----------


## Bedford

Someone mention Turbo Diesel, here's one.  Watch This Peterbilt's Detroit Diesel Engine Runaway After Its Turbo Seal Fails

----------


## chrisp

> Most of my colleagues who use the fleet agree...no more Rangers. Given their occupation this is somewhat ironic.

  Good one.    :Smilie:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> 80s? newfangled plastic crap! My daily driver was built in 1962, with 4 wheel unboosted drum brakes, power nothing, doesn't even have demisters. Works just fine.

  
What is it?

----------


## Cecile

> Used cars in Queensland - Find cars for sale in Queensland - CarPoint Australia

  Love this:  used car in Queensland, and there are skis on the roof rack.   :Rofl:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> The rusty car looks like a lada. Enough said.   
> .

  
Opel Corsa?   :Unsure:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> Love this:  used car in Queensland, and there are skis on the roof rack.

   It's all part of the Rat Rod look...to have a roofrack full of "stuff"

----------


## METRIX

> The rusty car looks like a lada. Enough said.  
> Electric cars will never replace fossil fuel power in Australia in the next 20 years unless there is some radical new battery tech that comes in. It will happen but not without 650 km range at 130 km/hr carrying 3 tonnes and  full capacity recharge in 1 minute . As is the norm now. It must be a like for like swap or a like for better swap at no extra expense or cheaper.  
> .

  It might get there quicker than you think, they use the same cells in their bigger packs as in cordless tools 18650, cordless tools topped out at 3.0A not that long ago, technology changed and now in a short time we have 6.0A as norm, 20 years is a long time in silicon Valley world, especially with technology leapfrogging itself so quick nowadays. 
Tesla's recently opened Giga factory which is already huge by comparison to anything else out there, is only at 14% complete and already they have the capacity to make more battery packs than every other battery manufacturing facility in the world combined. 
Tesla are supplying other companies such as Mercedes with the motors for their electric cars.
It's amazing that one guy has made so much change in an industry from the dinosaur age, and all from the sale of Zip2 and PayPal. 
With battery technology ever improving and running under current technology the specs are already quite impressive. 
The entry-level all-wheel-drive Model S 70D, features a  dual-motor 245kW configuration that claims a 442km range, 5.4-second  0-100km/h time and 225km/h top speed.
Model S 85D, increases dual-motor power  output to 311kW, ups range to 528km and top speed to  250km/h, while reducing the 70D’s 0-100km/h time to 4.4 seconds. 
The P85D flagship four-wheel-drive variant  splits the dual-motor’s power, with 375kW going to the rear wheels and  192kW to the fronts, the range reduces to 491km, 0-100km/h  acceleration drops to 3.3 seconds. 
You can option for ‘Ludicrous Mode’ this reducing the 0-100km/h to 3.0 seconds, and pushes the Model S P85D quarter mile time of 10.9 seconds. 
To put that into  perspective, the entirely electric four-door sedan is quicker from  standstill to 100km/h than a Ferrari Enzo, Porsche 911 Turbo and McLaren F1. 
Yes the cost of the Model S is currently over $100K AU, but so are the others mentioned (way over), and as this is new technology, the price will fall quickly once the factory starts producing on mass the model 3 expected delivery times is 2017, I say watch this space.

----------


## Spottiswoode

Yep, the Tesla has made a big difference. They needed to show that a battery powered car could keep up with the big luxury ones. Sure it takes a lot longer to recharge than to fill a petrol tank, but how often do you need to fill 2x a day. Once they work out that not everyone needs 250kW and would forgo that for even further range, or less 'luxury' then e-cars will be cheaper, and more common.

----------


## woodbe

> Sure it takes a lot longer to recharge than to fill a petrol tank

  I don't think so... 
We never take our electric car to a servo station. If it needs recharging, it takes less than a minute to plug it in at home. I guess you could stand there watching, but why? I guess you wouldn't have to breathe in the petrol fumes though, so if you like watching and doing nothing it would still be better. lol. 
Oh yea. And servicing. No oil changes, no filters, no gearbox, no exhaust, no whatever. All it needs is tyres, brake fluid exchange every few years and pads if you ever wear them out, (regen takes most deceleration and pumps power back into the battery). New shockers in maybe 5-10 years.  
Electric motors are high torque from basically zero rpm. They have high rpm limits so they don't need gear changes which also improves acceleration compared to combustion powered cars. 
Absolutely right. e-cars are going to get cheaper and joe public will find how convenient they are.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> I don't think so... 
> We never take our electric car to a servo station. If it needs recharging, it takes less than a minute to plug it in at home. I guess you could stand there watching, but why? I guess you wouldn't have to breathe in the petrol fumes though, so if you like watching and doing nothing it would still be better. lol. 
> Oh yea. And servicing. No oil changes, no filters, no gearbox, no exhaust, no whatever. All it needs is tyres, brake fluid exchange every few years and pads if you ever wear them out, (regen takes most deceleration and pumps power back into the battery). New shockers in maybe 5-10 years.  
> Electric motors are high torque from basically zero rpm. They have high rpm limits so they don't need gear changes which also improves acceleration compared to combustion powered cars. 
> Absolutely right. e-cars are going to get cheaper and joe public will find how convenient they are.

  I meant that if your battery is running low/flat you can't find the nearest servo and be on your way again in 3min which would not be applicable for most driving anyway. Not many people travelling further than one tank of petrol per day either, so it's a matter of recharging overnight, or while at work. This is mostly not inconvenient, but something that needs to be factored in to the driving experience. Until the car plugs itself in every night could leave you short the morning after. Could also be an issue if you have driven 400km to somewhere off the grid for a night or two.

----------


## woodbe

Sure. I guess you also have to factor in the time and handling of fossil fuels in a petroleum powered car...

----------


## phild01

So I guess the long distance mountain camping trip is not going to happen, especially towing!

----------


## woodbe

Nope  :Smilie:   
Do you do that every week? Just keep the old ute for it, or hire for the occasional trip.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> it takes a lot longer to recharge than to fill a petrol tank

   

> I don't think so... If it needs recharging, it takes less than a minute to plug it in at home.  
> I guess you could stand there watching, but why?  
> .

   
What?  
Are you guys talking about the same thing?      _Filling a tank with petrol_ vs _plugging an electric car in_ *or* _giving it a full charge_   
I'm confused    :Unsure:

----------


## Spottiswoode

> I'm confused

  My work here is done.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> My work here is done.

  
Oi! 
come back here!!!

----------


## woodbe

lol. 
There is a change in realisation when you start actually using an electric car. 
Yes, if it is needing a recharge, it does take hours to fill it up. Depends on the charger, the kWhs required, and the rate the car is capable of, but definitely hours. 
However, you don't have to travel somewhere to get fuel. When you get home, you can just plug it in and forget about it until morning. Takes a minute to plug it in. Jobs done. 
Spottiswoode is correct though, if you run low on charge half way through your day's journey, then you do have a long wait...

----------


## ringtail

> Most dual cab utes to me are ridiculously compromised motor vehicles that are a triumph of marketing over common sense...but what do I know?
>   .

  
I used to be of that opinion too and still am to an extent. With a canopy and as a touring 4x4 they are very good and practical. I can fit more in the tub with a canopy than I could in the back of the pajero with it loaded to the roof (with cargo barrier). Also I've really noticed  just how fumey all the crap I carry permanently is. Chainsaws and fuel, oil etc... When it was all in the pajero I just got used to the smell. Now it's all separate from the cabin in the Dmax it's awesome.  
However, as a ute they are crap. Too small in the tray to be any good IMO. I'll be building a draw system for the Dmax soon and that will make it even better. All the crap that's in boxes now will be in the draws with a nice clean flat floor with a fridge slide and a few extra batteries. I have the trailer to use as a"ute" if required.

----------


## ringtail

> So I guess the long distance mountain camping trip is not going to happen, especially towing!

  We do this every week and sometimes 4 times a week. Australia is just too big for any inroads to be made anywhere but the major cities - and who the hell wants to stay in the city ?  :Biggrin:  The grey nomads might get 100km up the road and have to stop for 8 hours for a recharge. Any idea how much it costs in electricity to recharge and what's the life of a battery and how much to replace a battery ?

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> I used to be of that opinion too and still am to an extent. With a canopy and as a touring 4x4 they are very good and practical. I can fit more in the tub with a canopy than I could in the back of the pajero with it loaded to the roof (with cargo barrier). Also I've really noticed  just how fumey all the crap I carry permanently is. Chainsaws and fuel, oil etc... When it was all in the pajero I just got used to the smell. Now it's all separate from the cabin in the Dmax it's awesome.  
> However, as a ute they are crap. Too small in the tray to be any good IMO. I'll be building a draw system for the Dmax soon and that will make it even better. All the crap that's in boxes now will be in the draws with a nice clean flat floor with a fridge slide and a few extra batteries. I have the trailer to use as a"ute" if required.

  Like I said... compromised!  :Wink:  
Ours is not to reason why. Merely to point and giggle.

----------


## METRIX

> Could also be an issue if you have driven 400km to somewhere off the grid for a night or two.

  This is a new technology and like any new tech it's going to take a little while to get the infrastructure installed, in the US Tesla have installed over 4000 Superchargers.
You can charge your Model S with a range of around 275km in 30 minutes, and the best part it's free, yes that's right it cost you nothing to use the Supercharger. 
Tesla have already installed enough Superchargers to get you from Sydney to Melbourne, with plans to go to Brisbane underway.
I guess what the old generation thinking needs to change, this technology is here now, and it's only going to get better from here, and as you said, once Tesla produce the camry version of their car, with a 150Kw engine instead of 500Kw the range will be dramatically better, the car will be cheaper and it's all steam ahead from there.   
This is a good time to be alive, to witness the death of the fossil fuel engine. 
They have made the Model S a super fast sportscar to prove to the dis believers that it can be done, it's not a pipe dream it's reality, bring it on I say.
Here is another company producing 2WD and 4WD vehicles including Utes,  https://www.alke.com/xt-electric-vehicles 
Here are probably the most reliable JEEPS in the world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6eIPdblAfU 
Óne for you RT
'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQkdMw4TVjY  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxR99bGYEAQ 
Future F1 ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_cRqcbXAs4 
This video is funny Drag race :: Model S P85D v V8 Supercar v Walkinshaw W507

----------


## MorganGT

> What is it?

  SV-1 Valiant:

----------


## METRIX

> We do this every week and sometimes 4 times a week. Australia is just too big for any inroads to be made anywhere but the major cities - and who the hell wants to stay in the city ?  The grey nomads might get 100km up the road and have to stop for 8 hours for a recharge. Any idea how much it costs in electricity to recharge and what's the life of a battery and how much to replace a battery ?

  *"Battery Limited Warranty*
The  Model S lithium-ion battery (the “Battery”) is an extremely  sophisticated powertrain component designed to withstand extreme driving  conditions. You can rest easy knowing that Tesla’s state-of-the-art  Battery is backed by this Battery Limited Warranty, which covers the  repair or replacement of any malfunctioning or defective Battery,  subject to the limitations described
below. If your Battery requires  warranty service, Tesla will repair the unit, or replace it with a  factory reconditioned unit that has an energy capacity at least equal to  that of the original Battery before the failure occurred. Your  vehicle’s Battery is covered under this Battery Limited Warranty for a  period of 8 years or for the number of miles/km specified below for your  Battery configuration,
whichever comes first: 
• 60 kWh - 125,000 miles (200,000 km)
• 85 kWh - unlimited miles/km 
Despite  the breadth of this warranty, damage resulting from intentional abuse  (including intentionally ignoring active vehicle warnings), a collision  or accident, or the servicing or opening of the Battery by non-Tesla  personnel, is not covered under this Battery Limited Warranty. In  addition, damage resulting from the following activities are not covered  under this Battery Limited Warranty: 
• Exposing the vehicle to ambient temperatures above 140°F (60°C) or below -22°F (-30°C) for
more than 24 hours at a time;
• Physically damaging the Battery, or intentionally attempting, either by physical means,
programming, or other methods, to extend (other than as specified in your owner
documentation) or reduce the life of the Battery;
• Exposing the Battery to direct flame; or,
• Flooding of the Battery.
The  Battery, like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual energy  or power loss with time and use. Loss of Battery energy or power over  time or due to or resulting from Battery usage, is NOT covered under  this Battery Limited Warranty. See your owner documentation for  important information on how to maximize the life and capacity of the  Battery."

----------


## Spottiswoode

There are ways around long charge times and it is just something we will need to get used to. My brother works with a company that built an electric race car, you can look up elmofo. It has enough battery power for a standard race, then between races they recharge it from a van full of batteries. It is competitive with a petrol version, provided the race isn't longer than standard, otherwise the car won't make it.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> SV-1 Valiant:

  Jealous. Bloke at work says his recently departed nan has an immaculate one of those in the garage that he's keen to see not leave the family.

----------


## METRIX

Once we all install a Tesla Power wall, you can use this to charge your electric car at home for FREE, the power wall charges up via Solar to run your house at night

----------


## woodbe

> Once we all install a Tesla Power wall, you can use this to charge your electric car at home for FREE, the power wall charges up via Solar to run your house at night

  Yep, but you will need more than one powerwall to run your house and charge your Tesla. 
Powerwall: 
Each Powerwall has a 6.4 kWh energy storage capacity, sufficient to  power most homes during the evening using electricity generated by solar  panels during the day. Multiple batteries may be installed together for  homes with greater energy needs. 
Model S: 
Base model is 60kWh battery capacity, Top end is 90kWh; 70kWh is rated 390km; 85kWh is rated at 426km (both independent EPA ratings) 
So a base model 60kWh will need 9+ Powerwalls to charge from near empty. 
The Teslas are amazing vehicles, but they are not the most efficient. too big and heavy to top the efficiency stakes, but they do have massive battery that gives them really good range. The Model 3 should improve things in this regard.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> SV-1 Valiant:

  
Noooooice!

----------


## phild01

If we all had Tesla cars, imagine the generator and grid upgrades required!  Also what roof acreage would be required to power the house and car with solar.  Some bleak weather won't help much either.

----------


## ringtail

> Noooooice!

  x 2

----------


## phild01

That's the same my neighbour had when I was a kid, maybe the same car, love it!

----------

