# Forum More Stuff Owner Builders Forum  Owner Builder Site Safety

## KSG

What have other owner builders done with regards to site safety in particular: 
- Site safety plan
- Incident reporting
- First aid facilities 
We are getting various trades in to do certain work and I won't be there all the time so have concerns about ability to properly manage site safety and things going missing - such as first aid kits 
Thanks 
KSG

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## OBBob

Interesting question. I can think of basic suggestions but if you aren't going to be there and it's a reasonable job you may have more stringent obligations.

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## phild01

I would want to be there all time or have a site manager of some sort.  I guess if you employ a major firm to do the roofing for example, it would matter less than if you had joe blow out of the classifieds doing it.
It is a good question.

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## travelislife

Interested in this as well. When I sign on the major trades (foundations, plumbing, roofing) I will ensure they have something in there around being responsible for their safety and leaving the site as it was found when they arrived.

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## OBBob

> Interested in this as well. When I sign on the major trades (foundations, plumbing, roofing) I will ensure they have something in there around being responsible for their safety and leaving the site as it was found when they arrived.

  Good to define your expectations but I doubt think you can contract out of your obligations.

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## ringtail

Every trade is responsible for their own and other peoples safety. Every subbie should have their own accident insurance but it is not up to you check on this or to provide insurance for them. It's not mandatory either. You should definitely check that each subbie has their own PL insurance though. Each trade has an obligation to work in a safe manner. If anything happens demand to see the work method statement for the activity being performed. No statement, no problem for you. If they do provide a statement and they have had an accident then it's a fair bet that they haven't performed the work in accordance with their own WMS. Again, no problem for you. It's quite easy, just make them accept personal responsibility for their actions. Provide a safe site with no hazards and you're gold. Never instruct them to do anything unsafe. Tape off hazard areas, put up the usual signs and crap. The rest is up to them. Work place health and safety is part of the licencing requirements so make sure anyone you use is licenced.

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## intertd6

> What have other owner builders done with regards to site safety in particular: 
> - Site safety plan
> - Incident reporting
> - First aid facilities 
> We are getting various trades in to do certain work and I won't be there all the time so have concerns about ability to properly manage site safety and things going missing - such as first aid kits 
> Thanks 
> KSG

  as you are the builder you are ultimately responsible for all safety on your site & around it, you cannot delegate those responsibilities to subcontractors, you can insist that they carry the responsibility but it's a bluff in the eyes of the OH&S act. It's good policy to be onsite while any work is going on & stop anything that's unsafe.
there are providers of the information you require, but it's all provided for free by workcover or what ever it's called in your state.
inter

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## OBBob

^ whs

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## autogenous

Builder is still responsible for their workers comp unless they are a company, although builders employ sole traders and partners because they are generally a truck load cheaper than a company.  Accident sickness isn't worth a pinch of goat poo.  No pay for 7 weeks then only covers like 12 months and it only pays three quarters or half your pay. 
Personally, I don't have accident and sickness cover.  If I needed accident insurance, my bank would require I need it before anyone else.  I have a wife with an income to cover me, and enough money in the bank to live for 2 years.  
Builders ask for insurances so they can get a discount on theirs and assist in making their contractors separate entities to avoid paying superannuation, as subbie may be deemed an employee after a couple of contracts. 
Public liability is complex when you have multiple trades on site.  Contract tradies are responsible for their own first aid.  No housing site I have seen has its own first aid, although supervisors may carry a first aid kit around under their car seat. 
If you are really concerned about site safety.  "Fence off your building site with padlock gate"  In the event a public liability, tradies will say there is no fence preventing entry.  Have all the signs up saying no entry, trespassers prosecuted, safety gear to be worn. 
Have a skip bin to throw all the rubbish by tradies.  Keep the site clean yourself.  Avoid multiple trades on the site at one time. It is a legal minefield in the event of an incident.  example, roofies working over top plasterers.  There is multiple contractors rubbish, and materials laying around. 
An example, my business partner picked up a level on a brick pier.  Someone turned the light switch on which gave him an electric shock.  The next job my business partner hoses down the sand, someone turned the spa pump switch on with no spa in sight.  He got an electric shock through the water.  Multiple trades on site.  
Make sure the site certified boundary fence is locked up each night, and the building. Multiple trades is an accident waiting to happen.   

> Every trade is responsible for their own and other peoples safety. Every subbie should have their own accident insurance but it is not up to you check on this or to provide insurance for them. It's not mandatory either. You should definitely check that each subbie has their own PL insurance though. Each trade has an obligation to work in a safe manner. If anything happens demand to see the work method statement for the activity being performed. No statement, no problem for you. If they do provide a statement and they have had an accident then it's a fair bet that they haven't performed the work in accordance with their own WMS. Again, no problem for you. It's quite easy, just make them accept personal responsibility for their actions. Provide a safe site with no hazards and you're gold. Never instruct them to do anything unsafe. Tape off hazard areas, put up the usual signs and crap. The rest is up to them. Work place health and safety is part of the licencing requirements so make sure anyone you use is licenced.

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## phild01

> If you are really concerned about site safety.  "Fence off your building site with padlock gate"  In the event a public liability, tradies will say there is no fence preventing entry.  Have all the signs up saying no entry, trespassers prosecuted, safety gear to be worn.

   Fenced building sites, how times have changed. How can youngsters learn building stuff if there is no opportunity to wander through a site!
Oh well, how insurance and lawyers changed the world. :Anoyd:

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## autogenous

If you want to contract out your safety obligation, the only way is pay a safety officer contract on-site all day to ensure the site is deemed safe.  Even then, you will be obligated to have insurances, more than likely a requirement of a bank loan so the bank doesn't lose their money.

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## autogenous

It will bite you on the bum.  I have a small builder who has a camera onsite with sim modem on a pole to prevent site theft and see who is coming and going.
Not even allowed to take dogs on site. No more lots of things.  Its all litigation now so fence is a must.  Owners visitors fall down steps etc. 
Yep, all the insurances has added dramatically to the cost of the tradie labor past 10 years. 
There are many tradies who have no assets. Cant get blood out a stone, even without insurance.   

> Fenced building sites, how times have changed. How can youngsters learn building stuff if there is no opportunity to wander through a site!
> Oh well, how insurance and lawyers changed the world.

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## autogenous

When you put a trade on site, they can refuse entry to everyone. They are supposed to take control of the site.  Once you mix trades, no one trade has control of the site.  They cant practically control the safety of the site, so it all public liability falls back on you. 
If I want to, I can prevent a supervisor entering the site.  The current contractor has control of that site under the public liability.  As soon as someone not employed by the contractor enters that site, the public liability is on you.

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## intertd6

> When you put a trade on site, they can refuse entry to everyone. They are supposed to take control of the site.  Once you mix trades, no one trade has control of the site.  They cant practically control the safety of the site, so it all public liability falls back on you. 
> If I want to, I can prevent a supervisor entering the site.  The current contractor has control of that site under the public liability.  As soon as someone not employed by the contractor enters that site, the public liability is on you.

  where do you get this stuff from? I hope you don't believe it!
inter

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## autogenous

SAFETY COURSE.  It comes under public liability Interd6.  I know, safety instructors are full of it 
That is of course, if you are a 'sub contractor'.  If the supervisor hurts themself.... What happens? 
Its all fine until insurance starts drilling down looking for money.  The site is 'handed over to you' as a contractor, thats why you are required public liability.   

> where do you get this stuff from? I hope you don't believe it!
> inter

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## ringtail

I started reading the Qld act last night and gave up. Just rubbish. It all comes down to " who is a worker " . It seems that if one is a contractor, supplies most or all of the tools, is responsible for the rectification of the works and is also responsible for how the works are to be done with minimal instruction then one is NOT a worker and therefore not covered by workcover. However, a contractor that fits this description may still be a worker. Nice.  
I ditched my personal accident too. Just not worth it at all. If one becomes total/permanent disabled the wonderful Gov supports anyway. Tis why we pay tax ( eh Marc  :Tongue:  )

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## OBBob

Perhaps 'support' comes at  differing levels of comfort  :Smilie:  . There shouldn't be confusion about who's in control of the site.

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## Spottiswoode

> ^ whs

  Is that 'what he said' or correcting OHS to the more current WHS?  :Sneaktongue:

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## OBBob

> Is that 'what he said' or correcting OHS to the more current WHS?

  
ha ha ... what he said.

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## intertd6

> SAFETY COURSE.  It comes under public liability Interd6.  I know, safety instructors are full of it 
> That is of course, if you are a 'sub contractor'.  If the supervisor hurts themself.... What happens? 
> Its all fine until insurance starts drilling down looking for money.  The site is 'handed over to you' as a contractor, thats why you are required public liability.

   If anyone paid for that course id be wanting my money back, PL covers within a the limits of the policy & PDS everything that the contractor does or is responsible for, not for other contractors, subcontractors can't dictate to the principal contractor or builder when & who is onsite, for particular work areas there are needs for subcontractor access control & limitations but this comes from a subcontractor request then implemented by the builder. The only ones who have the site legally handed over to them for the term of the contract is the builder or principal contractor & they can stop the owner from entering the site as well. This is contract administration 101 & not found in subcontractors contracts
if there is an accident or claim made the insurance providers investigate & sort out who's policy will bare the claim liability.
inter

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## intertd6

> I started reading the Qld act last night and gave up. Just rubbish. It all comes down to " who is a worker " . It seems that if one is a contractor, supplies most or all of the tools, is responsible for the rectification of the works and is also responsible for how the works are to be done with minimal instruction then one is NOT a worker and therefore not covered by workcover. However, a contractor that fits this description may still be a worker. Nice.  
> I ditched my personal accident too. Just not worth it at all. If one becomes total/permanent disabled the wonderful Gov supports anyway. Tis why we pay tax ( eh Marc  )

   I think you will find that what you were reading was the definition of a worker or subcontractor for the purposes of the workers compensation act, if an serious accident was to occur,  this is when insurance providers investigate, they are looking for any loophole not to pay out & shift liability, large companies are very careful with not giving verbal instructions to subcontractors as this is a clear definition of a deemed worker to be not working as a subcontractor & shift liability of insurance to the principal contractor.
inter

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## ringtail

Either way, the system is rubbish and yet it could be so simple. Anyone employed on wages or salary eg no ABN, is covered by workcover. Everyone else is not. Simples.

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## Tonzz

With a recent death on a home building site in Adelaide, I bet $$$ that safety hats will soon be mandatory on all building sites, weather owner builder, contactor etc etc

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## KSG

Thanks all for responses.

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## autogenous

Nup not simples.  The builder covers subbies for workers compensation.  If a subbie employs someone then they cover the employee.  It varies state to state.  But the builder must have cover.  A subbie is asked to have to have accident sickness, that is all.  But in my case, I am self insured for accident sickness.  I have 2 years wages in the bank.  A policy that doesnt pay me for 7 weeks then pays me at half pay for 12 months is useless.  My wife also has a wage.   

> Either way, the system is rubbish and yet it could be so simple. Anyone employed on wages or salary eg no ABN, is covered by workcover. Everyone else is not. Simples.

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## autogenous

Your job should have a fence around it if you are not living there to prevent kids coming onsite and killing themselves.  Without the fence any subbies public liability falls back on you. 
People fall down stairwells, off ladders, in holes, pull heavy items on top themselves, bang their heads.

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## autogenous

The builder has to have public liability.  It doesnt matter Inerd6, builders have already been told subbies are deemed employees.  The ATO is in the throws of bringing out the thumbscrews.  ABNs wont be so simple to get in the future.  Essentially you need to be a PTY LTD company but many subbies wont do it due to the costs associated with audits etc to differentiate yourself from the builder.  Every subcontractor should have public liability.  Many subcontractors have no assets so get a public liability cover, then cancel and keep using the policy number.
You cant get blood out of stone. 
Yep, the system is a fraud.  And some tradies with assets have left the arena because it is not policed on the ground which makes it extremely hard to compete on a level playing field. 
A roof carpenter we know, lost his house recently because he didn't have worker covered.   

> I think you will find that what you were reading was the definition of a worker or subcontractor for the purposes of the workers compensation act, if an serious accident was to occur,  this is when insurance providers investigate, they are looking for any loophole not to pay out & shift liability, large companies are very careful with not giving verbal instructions to subcontractors as this is a clear definition of a deemed worker to be not working as a subcontractor & shift liability of insurance to the principal contractor.
> inter

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## autogenous

Essentially handing over the site to a particular trade is why the subcontractor need public liability, otherwise it comes under the builders public liability. 
 If a builder is supervising your tasks, you are an employee.   
Home owners have public liability under their home insurance, just in case a tradie hurts themselves while working on the house. 
Not having a fence around a building site renders your site unsafe anyway.  Kids just walk in and kill themselves, 
Having the keep out signs, no trespassing is a good start to, but not protection.    

> Perhaps 'support' comes at  differing levels of comfort  . There shouldn't be confusion about who's in control of the site.

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## autogenous

If a roof carpenter is working over a bricklayer and drops a tile on the brickies head and kills the bricky.  What happens? 
Supervisor is a bit of a pseudonym, because by rights, they dont supervise.  They are more schedulers.  The schedule the trades.  The builder issues a purchase order. 
If the supervisor is supervising trades, trades are deemed employees by the ATO.

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## ringtail

> If a roof carpenter is working over a bricklayer and drops a tile on the brickies head and kills the bricky.  What happens?
>  .

  Mmmm, celebratory BBQ ?  :Biggrin:  
Yes, it's a joke.

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## autogenous

If you have an employee on a housing site, and you have not issued them a helmet, and they incur a head injury.  You are screwed

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## autogenous

Some blokes would say. "Thats a carton"   

> Mmmm, celebratory BBQ ?  
> Yes, it's a joke.

  A lot of people confuse workers comp with accident and sickness policy.  Two totally different animals.

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## pharmaboy2

> If a roof carpenter is working over a bricklayer and drops a tile on the brickies head and kills the bricky.  What happens? 
> Supervisor is a bit of a pseudonym, because by rights, they dont supervise.  They are more schedulers.  The schedule the trades.  The builder issues a purchase order. 
> If the supervisor is supervising trades, trades are deemed employees by the ATO.

  if the bricky is young and or doesn't support a family, you are all good. 
however, if you simply give him brain damage (hard to imagine I know), then it's millions. 
anyway, cruise ship fro of lawyers on the bottom of the ocean an d all that....

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## intertd6

> Nup not simples.  The builder covers subbies for workers compensation.  If a subbie employs someone then they cover the employee.  It varies state to state.  But the builder must have cover.  A subbie is asked to have to have accident sickness, that is all.  But in my case, I am self insured for accident sickness.  I have 2 years wages in the bank.  A policy that doesnt pay me for 7 weeks then pays me at half pay for 12 months is useless.  My wife also has a wage.

  builders do not cover sub contractors for workers compensation, the the subcontractors have to fill in a subcontractors declaration form with each progress claim which provides details https://www.workcover.nsw.gov.au/__d...ement_5483.pdf
i hope this clears up your misinformation 
inter

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## intertd6

> Your job should have a fence around it if you are not living there to prevent kids coming onsite and killing themselves.  Without the fence any subbies public liability falls back on you. 
> People fall down stairwells, off ladders, in holes, pull heavy items on top themselves, bang their heads.

  fencing is determined by a risk analysis, a house in on a remote site will have different or no needs for a fence, subbies public liability covers them for their acts, errors or omissions.
inter

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## intertd6

> Essentially handing over the site to a particular trade is why the subcontractor need public liability, otherwise it comes under the builders public liability. 
>  If a builder is supervising your tasks, you are an employee.   
> Home owners have public liability under their home insurance, just in case a tradie hurts themselves while working on the house. 
> Not having a fence around a building site renders your site unsafe anyway.  Kids just walk in and kill themselves, 
> Having the keep out signs, no trespassing is a good start to, but not protection.

   Both the builder & subcontractor have to have PL , if a builder allows a subbie to work without PL then the builder picks up the subbies risk, this would open a can of worms with the builders insurer & the possibility of denying a claim, because the subbie should have their own PL as per the IR act & declaration 
inter

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## intertd6

> If a roof carpenter is working over a bricklayer and drops a tile on the brickies head and kills the bricky.  What happens? 
> Supervisor is a bit of a pseudonym, because by rights, they dont supervise.  They are more schedulers.  The schedule the trades.  The builder issues a purchase order. 
> If the supervisor is supervising trades, trades are deemed employees by the ATO.

  when workcover investigates a workplace death their findings will be used determine the cause of the accident & or negligence by all involved, in those cases the builder is usually found negligent because of poor safety control, although the person who dropped the tile could go to gaol for a year for industrial manslaughter, or someone up the chain of command who allowed or ordered an unsafe practice to occur.
the word supervisor means nothing in relation to the differences between a deemed worker or subcontractor.
inter

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## Tonzz

> Essentially handing over the site to a particular trade is why the subcontractor need public liability, otherwise it comes under the builders public liability. 
>  If a builder is supervising your tasks, you are an employee.   
> Home owners have public liability under their home insurance, just in case a tradie hurts themselves while working on the house. 
> Not having a fence around a building site renders your site unsafe anyway.  Kids just walk in and kill themselves, 
> Having the keep out signs, no trespassing is a good start to, but not protection.

  Mate of mine builds houses in rural areas, his night time protection is couple of goats and a kangaroo.,. He's had them for years and somehow they know the drill if someone comes onto property after hours attack.  Ive seen a couple of results and they were'nt pretty. The victims cant do anything.  Its wildlife and protected.

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## r3nov8or

Well, that all clears it up completely

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## johnc

> If a roof carpenter is working over a bricklayer and drops a tile on the brickies head and kills the bricky.  What happens? 
> Supervisor is a bit of a pseudonym, because by rights, they dont supervise.  They are more schedulers.  The schedule the trades.  The builder issues a purchase order. 
> If the supervisor is supervising trades, trades are deemed employees by the ATO.

  I am aware of a local instance although rather than death it was serious and permanent brain injury. What happens is a world of legal pain for all concerned and the most pain will be directed at whoever has the greatest capacity to pay, you might not end up liable but your legal bills can still wipe you out financially anyway.

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