# Forum Home Renovation Roofing  Sound proof/reduce noise on metal roofed extension

## tifflee

Hi all, 
sorry if the title is a little vague,  the extension built on my house has a very low metal (klip lok?) roof with a suspended ceiling underneath.   
Now even though there is insulation between the ceiling panels and the roof itself it's quite noisy with just birds walking across it let alone when it rains, I realise this is the nature of tin roofs but I was just wondering is there any practical measures I can take to reduce the noise any more?  Initially I was thinking perhaps of sticking something on the underside of the roof to reduce noise similar to when i;ve sound proofed inside a car, you can buy expensive products such as dynamat $$$ but in the past i've used butyl backed flashing tape (a popular budget alternative).  Anyway i'm not so sure trying to cover the underside of that roof in flashing tape is in any way cost effective and it would probably just fall off in the extreme heat of summer, perhaps I could spray a rubber coating on it? 
To be honest I have no idea what I could do if anything so just here to spitball ideas, any ideas appreciated other than get a new roof!  :Wink:  
thanks 
Edit: 
the roof above suspended ceiling

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## phild01

You could use furring channel with acoustic resilient mounts, 16mm fire rated plasterboard and some Tontine acoustic insulation, as a system.
Most effective way is to have ceiling totally isolated from the roof framing. 
Maybe a simple start is to raise the roof and install blanket insulation.

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## Moondog55

Blanket is the way to go for the sound issue as a first cheaper solution 
BTDT

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## joynz

Bradfords sound screen has helped with sound transfer through my raked ceiling (in addition to blanket).  Sound screen is better at insulating sound than the blanket , need to butt together tightly though.

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## phild01

> Bradfords sound screen has helped with sound transfer through my raked ceiling (in addition to blanket).  Sound screen is better at insulating sound than the blanket , need to butt together tightly though.

  Starting with the blanket may be more effective than just placing sound insulation, provided it is placed between the roofing and supporting members.
Hard to see what structure supports the roofing.

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## tifflee

When you say blanket do you mean something like this?  Earthwool Roof Insulation Blanket 
Sorry not the best picture   
there is 4 cross beams running underneath the roof, so I should actually lift the panels and have the blanket go between roof and cross beams?

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## METRIX

Good luck lifting the panels, Klip Lock does not like to be ripped up without either damaging the sheets or the klips, not saying it can't be done, but it's difficult.

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## phild01

> When you say blanket do you mean something like this?  Earthwool Roof Insulation Blanket  
> there is 4 cross beams running underneath the roof, so I should actually lift the panels and have the blanket go between roof and cross beams?

  Yes, or Bradford 60 x 1200 x 15m R1.3 Anticon Insulation Heavy Duty Blankets I/N 0821171 | Bunnings Warehouse.  
Batten spacings look wide so not sure how it would go.
As for lifting the roof, the kliplock would be difficult as Metrix says.  It might be possible to partially lift it with blocks and place it from the underside.  Be aware that the wind could easily pick the roof and fly it off somewhere, once disconnected.

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## Moondog55

So if the roof is that hard to remove then gluing polystyrene foam in between the joist may be an option. The rigid foam would stop a lot of NVH

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## Marc

Lifting the roof seems a bit extreme for sound insulation. 
Of course you could re-do the roof with those "Cooldek" insulated sheets from Stratco. Not sure if you have the extra room for them and if they fit the roof structure.  
I have built a few tin roofs placing 10mm (or was it 12, can't remember) plywood over the rafters, battens across, insulation between battens and second layer across battens and then the metal roof with batten screws. No noise from rain at all.

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## phild01

My experience with styrofoam has been that it does very little in terms of noise insulation.

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## Marc

The Cooldek sheets are good for noise reduction because the polyurethane is glued to the metal and so the metal can not act as a membrane and vibrate and produce noise. 
 To reproduce that you would need to have blocks of poly with the contour of the roof glued from below to the metal. Another way would be to have a strong ceiling material that can take a bit of pressure,  and stuff a lot of insulation bats to completely fill the space and press it up hard against the roof. 
Noise is not easy to insulate, any air gap communicates the noise and makes the exercise useless. A lot of good info on some American websites.

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## tifflee

Thanks for the info everyone. 
I've not been on top of the roof yet to look but I would of though the sheets are secured to the steel beams so by removing the fixings I would get enough lift underneath to feed some insulation over the beam? 
I popped into Stratco on the way home from work and checked out that cooldek stuff, looks like a good all in way solution but the guy at the counter suggested it would be more cost effective to use anticon as phil mentioned above, he also suggested some rubber strips over the steel beams as well (a product he used to sell when working at clark rubber).

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## phild01

I was reluctant to suggest using rubber over or under as it may be a moisture retention issue and corrosion.
 Verandah/room conversion!

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## joynz

Not sure that rubber would be much different to the anticon blanket in terms of potential for corrosion if draped on top of the battens?  To my mind, both  would be a moisture barrier so I suspect the effect - if any - on the metal beams over which they are draped would be similar?

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## tifflee

Ok so all suspended ceiling panels down (soon to be disposed of) and purchased 3 big rolls of bradford csr anticon which was much fun trying to fit inside my frontera, hopefully weekend after next me and 2 friends will attempt to lift the roof panels and 'feed' the anticon over the beams from underneath. 
Just to clarify though, once the anticon has been placed over the beams under the roof I simply screw the roof panels back down compressing the anticon where it is sandwiched between the two?  or would I use longer fixings and screw down enogh so it's secure but not completely squashing the insulation?

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## joynz

Did you consider the new Acousticon product from Bradford?  Has Better sound proofing than regular anticon.  http://www.insulationindustries.com....usticon_ds.pdf 
Not sure about the longer nails query.  I have regular anticon and it seems to have been screwed in with regular nails and the anticon just compressed underneath.  
Less compression would retain greater R values (and possible acoustic barrier effect) though. 
However, it might be difficult to judge how far to screw in longer nails to retain extra space.

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## phild01

You would not want any looseness by the screws.  They need to sufficiently compress against their rubber washers to weatherproof the roofing, and be torqued up enough to be tight, but not flatten the roof sheet.  I would think about using new weatherproofing washers as well.

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## tifflee

@joynz never realised they did that now but too late anyhow as I have 3 big rolls of anticon sat in the garage! 
@Phil  yeah having them screwed down tight makes sense I was just trying to think how not to completely compress the anticon and maintain maximum noise damping benefit.  Perhaps I should try the rubber on top of the battens (between batten and anticon foil layer) where the panels screw down as well then.

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## phild01

You can only do so much.  If you use new roofing washers, their flexibility could help isolate sound vibration from the roof material.  I don't mean the small standard black o-ring type of washer.  One unconventional idea (and I might be corrected on this), might be to use the more flexible grey washers as used for polycarbonate roofing: Bastion Type 17 Polycarbonate Roofing Screws - 100 Pack I/N 1010613 | Bunnings Warehouse 
These normally have an oversized hole in the roof sheet so the screw has a loose fit through the hole.  _Maybe this is worth investigating:_ http://roofrazor.com.au/

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## tifflee

Yeah I know I just wanted to do all I can first time and never have to look at it again. 
The roof razor is very similar to something I was thinking about earlier (spacers to lift the panels off the beam and not compress the insulation but still have a contact point to screw down to).

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## phild01

The thing is if you put a solid structure between the roofing and it's support then you reduce sound isolation.  I would not be too concerned about compressing the insulation.  It will offer better sound insulation as opposed to thermal insulation.

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## tifflee

Yeah fair point i'm probably worrying too much about it to be honest, it's not like it rains all that much in WA!

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## joynz

> One unconventional idea (and I might be corrected on this), might be to use the more flexible grey washers as used for polycarbonate roofing: Bastion Type 17 Polycarbonate Roofing Screws - 100 Pack I/N 1010613 | Bunnings Warehouse 
> These normally have an oversized hole in the roof sheet so the screw has a loose fit through the hole./

  I think that you should only use screws *specifically* designed for your type of roofing.

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## phild01

> I think that you should only use screws *specifically* designed for your type of roofing.

  I do get off-track thinking acoustics, so disregard that thought I gave :Smilie:

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## phild01

This is worth a read, also jump to 5.3  http://www.lysaght.com/files/dmfile/...ualJul2015.pdf

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## tifflee

Looks like I need to invest in some wire mesh as well to support the insulation, between 2 of the steel beams it is around a 1.9m gap (approximately was measuring from underneath)

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## tifflee

Not wanting to take this too off topic but just looking ahead into the future I was wondering if anyone could offer any alternative ideas for the ceiling construction (not sure if there is a more appropriate forum section to post this). 
Originally there was a suspended ceiling which looked horrendous for lack of a better word, the rows and columns of plasterboard tiles were all different sizes it looked worse than the stuff in the offices at work!  My original plan was to redo the ceiling using stained plywood to make it look more appealing if not a little like a restaurant but an improvement none the less, the issue being that if access was ever required above the ceiling it would either need to come down or the roof off as the low apex angle on the roof makes access from the original loft space nigh on impossible. 
Another idea me and a friend was discussing was doing away with the suspended ceiling altogether and making a timber framework of sorts and then screwing larger sheets of plywood to that but in a fashion that if access was required they could still come down,  is was talking about screws that have a cap on the end for 'finishing' purposes if you get me.   Either way no matter what I do it will be an improvement, to be honest it looks better as is right now with the ceiling down (and it looks a state as well). 
A picture as it is now

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## RodEye

Be interesting to see a pic of top side, because from below things look a bit iffy. ie: batten spans, additional  roof sheeting (colourbond)? added. Be careful stompin' around up there.

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## tifflee

You are not wrong Rod, tbh it goes hand in hand with alot of the stuff i'm come across in the house, whoever was doing the DIY was not competent which is fair enough as we all start somewhere but they clearly didn't give a feck either. 
It looks like a mismash of left over sheets! although as much as it annoys me i'm not sure if I want to go spend a load of cash doing replacing it all.

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## RodEye

Hear what ya sayin' tiffle. Room for improvement but there is a limit when there is no cash to splash.I'd prefer to see something that is sound before adding sound proofing.
Maybe invest in some ear muffs  :Music:

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## phild01

It is a bare bones roof that seems patio style.  Hate to say it but I would re-frame a new roof.  Is that a single skin exterior brick wall?

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## tifflee

Yea it is pretty barebones, its a double brick cavity wall. 
I asked this question on another forum a month or 2 ago but i'll ask it again here.  
When I bought the house I was told the extension was "engineer approved" or something to that effect and I thought nothing more of it, however since that time and after finding evidence of pretty ropey DIY I requested a copy of the plans and it turns out there was nothing for this extension.  Looking on google earth its been here since at least 2003 (oldest aerial photo available on there) and was wondering if it was worth getting retrospective approval, it was suggested since it has been here 12+ years then not to worry. 
So back to the roof..... ive sat underneath during heavy rain in its current state and it doesn't leak or anything.  Re-frame and new roof... sounds expensive!

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## phild01

Consider that you need to line the ceiling and that will likely need plasterboard.  That in itself will need a frame not much less than a proper roof frame.

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## tifflee

Can you elaborate on re-frame? add additional beams? or whole new frame design? 
Edit:  This colourbond is up for sale near me  http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-view-det...dId=1088911426 
different style (corrugated) but single long lengths which would actually prove handy as I wanted to extend the roof at some point over where the patio doors will be

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## phild01

I am only guessing what the space is but I think you need to ask yourself what the ceiling is going to be.  That will need framework that will support it.  What you had before was a lightweight suspended ceiling.  I am not sure what you have is adequate enough to support a furring channel with plasterboard as that is not my strong point.  If you need to implement a timber frame, then the spans will dictate the size of the timber needed, and it won't be much different to what is necessary to support roof sheeting. So you could build a frame under what is there for a ceiling and it will in all probability be enough to support the roof sheeting as well.

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## pharmaboy2

Did you end up getting the kliplock up successfully tiflee? 
just had a look at this one today again, and if you haven't invested too much in it already, I'd vote taking it off and replacing it wholesale.

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## tifflee

ha I was going to post an update today as well!  
Turns out the stuff is trim dek and held down just by tek screws and comes up very easily, whip the screws out quick wiggle and off it comes.  In the end though I bought a load of custom orb single sheets from a local guy and decided to replace with them, the sheets are slightly longer giving some overhang at the moment but I will just extend the frame out and use it for a seating/shaded area. 
So as it was  
sheets removed and some wire mesh placed down which the anticon went on top of prior to fitting the new sheet  
Excuse the wiring mess, the cables were either wrapped around the patio tube or were previously loose as they were just flung over the original suspended ceiling.  Will be sorted in due course.    
Old roof  
New roof   
Still need to sort all the capping/flashing out and trying to find somewhere which stocks lysaght tile flashing as the tiles are sat directly on the steel roof.
Rain is forecast for friday so hopefully get some down tomorrow as the break in the roof although covered is currently above my tv and other gadgets! 
I did consider adding additional beams to the roof, there was even a load of patio tube in the garage when I moved here which would of been sufficient but I didn't want to get too carried away with it.  If I was going to go through the effort off rebuilding all the roof structure I would of wanted to also increase the apex and bring it more in line with the existing tile roof, although saying that the more I think about it the more I want to do it.

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