# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Recessed down lights LED

## goldie1

Does a recessed led ceiling down light which can be completely  covered with batts  exist? 
Job is having all new wiring, switch board etc

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## Uncle Bob

There are covers for the old incandescent types so I'd think so.

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## Ozcar

There are many LED down lights available now that the manufacturers say can be "abutted and covered" by insulation. However it may still be necessary for the lamp to be a certain distance from timber, and for the driver to be above the insulation.  
While it may be "safe" to have the lamp under insulation, it will run hotter if you do that and my take on it is that it could reduce the life of the LEDs.

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## goldie1

"the driver" ?? Is that what they call a transformer these days? Can't you get led that run on 240v ?

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## phild01

> "the driver" ?? Is that what they call a transformer these days? Can't you get led that run on 240v ?

  You can get led lamps that are designed for direct 240v connection but from my observations they are fairly dull.

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## goldie1

Thanks guys. The sum total of my lighting knowledge could be written on the back of a stamp so I 
went to a couple of lighting shops and spoke to sales people who knew less than I did. By the time 
I left I had lost the will to live.

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## Ozcar

The drivers look like the "electronic" transformers for MR16 lamps, but are not the same in the sense that you could swap one for the other.  LED drivers provide a (more-or-less) constant current, while a transformar provides a (more-or-less) constant voltage.  
LEDs that operate directly on 240V, like some GU10 lamps, actually have the driver electronics crammed into the base of the lamp.

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## goldie1

> The drivers look like the "electronic" transformers for MR16 lamps, but are not the same in the sense that you could swap one for the other.  LED drivers provide a (more-or-less) constant current, while a transformar provides a (more-or-less) constant voltage.  
> LEDs that operate directly on 240V, like some GU10 lamps, actually have the driver electronics crammed into the base of the lamp.

   Ok I think I am getting it. I can cover the lamps with batts as long as they have separate drivers which remain above 
the batts and the house won't burn down but the life of the leds will be less.  
12 v leds are brighter then 240v leds.   I suppose the next question is would the cost of the extra heating 
bill caused by having holes in the batts be greater than the cost of the reduced  led life if I don't  have 
holes in the batts ?

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## phild01

Goldie1, I will be facing a similar conundrum soon.  I have a vaulted ceiling with little air space.  I need to have the drivers above the batts and 100-150mm under the sarking.  Somehow I want to elevate the batts above the lamps to at least offer an air void.  I will set one up as a test and place a temperature probe for observation to see how hot that area gets as a guide to whether I can expect a shortened lamp life.  I won't be using any sort of lamp hat that are available for halogen.  I will likely use thin slices of plasterboard cornice cemented in place to hold the batts away from the lamp.  That's my thinking for the moment anyway.

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## Ozcar

> Ok I think I am getting it. I can cover the lamps with batts as long as they have separate drivers which remain above 
> the batts and the house won't burn down but the life of the leds will be less.  
> 12 v leds are brighter then 240v leds.   I suppose the next question is would the cost of the extra heating 
> bill caused by having holes in the batts be greater than the cost of the reduced  led life if I don't  have 
> holes in the batts ?

  Not all LEDs can be covered. We just got some that can be, and I saw others that can be, but I did see yet other ones that said they could not be covered and needed 50mm clearance on the sides. 
  We did not cover the lamps with insulation. I don't know how much difference that makes, but we were replacing downlights that not only were not covered with the insulation, but which had quite large gaps allowing air to escape (not to mention allowing insects to drop in to visit us). 
I'm not sure about saying that 12V leds are brighter. For a start, the LED drivers do produce a low voltage, but not necessarily 12V. It is a challenge to squeeze the driver into the base of the lamp, whether that be a GU10 (240V) lamp or a MR16  (12V) lamp. So, lamps with a separate driver can be higher power (brighter).

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## PhilT2

TENMAT Line of Downlight Protection Covers: Recessed Light Fixtures: Downlight Insulation Guard

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## goldie1

> Goldie1, I will be facing a similar conundrum soon.  I have a vaulted ceiling with little air space.  I need to have the drivers above the batts and 100-150mm under the sarking.  Somehow I want to elevate the batts above the lamps to at least offer an air void.  I will set one up as a test and place a temperature probe for observation to see how hot that area gets as a guide to whether I can expect a shortened lamp life.  I won't be using any sort of lamp hat that are available for halogen.  I will likely use thin slices of plasterboard cornice cemented in place to hold the batts away from the lamp.  That's my thinking for the moment anyway.

  G'day Phil.. I have plenty of room above the ceiling (pitched roof ) Be interested to hear how you  
go. Mine are a few months  off. Still removing hair plaster.

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## goldie1

> Not all LEDs can be covered. We just got some that can be, and I saw others that can be, but I did see yet other ones that said they could not be covered and needed 50mm clearance on the sides. 
>   We did not cover the lamps with insulation. I don't know how much difference that makes, but we were replacing downlights that not only were not covered with the insulation, but which had quite large gaps allowing air to escape (not to mention allowing insects to drop in to visit us). 
> I'm not sure about saying that 12V leds are brighter. For a start, the LED drivers do produce a low voltage, but not necessarily 12V. It is a challenge to squeeze the driver into the base of the lamp, whether that be a GU10 (240V) lamp or a MR16  (12V) lamp. So, lamps with a separate driver can be higher power (brighter).

  Thanks for that Ozcar. Starting to get my head around it. More research to do.

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## goldie1

> TENMAT Line of Downlight Protection Covers: Recessed Light Fixtures: Downlight Insulation Guard

   They look interesting Thanks PhilT2

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## justonething

I'm not an expert on LED downlights, but I think this forum has all the expertise on the subject. From what I read, if you provide heat sink to conduct the heat away efficiently then completely covering the light fixture shouldn't be a problem. For powerful downlights, drivers do get hot.

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## phild01

> I'm not an expert on LED downlights, but I think this forum has all the expertise on the subject. From what I read, if you provide heat sink to conduct the heat away efficiently then completely covering the light fixture shouldn't be a problem. For powerful downlights, drivers do get hot.

  A heatsink gets full and needs to dissipate.  It can't do this very well if smothered in insulation.

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## justonething

> A heatsink gets full and needs to dissipate.  It can't do this very well if smothered in insulation.

  I'm thinking that the heat sink can be separate from the fitting itself.

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## phild01

> I'm thinking that the heat sink can be separate from the fitting itself.

  Even so, if it is meant to be a heat sink then it can't be wrapped or covered.  Generally what you are doing with the separation is allowing more air to dissipate heat from the lamp.  A lamp hood does not offer much air to do this, but would make some significant difference.  The lamp will have a tested design range for temperature and it is hoped the hood achieves this and might, after all they were intended for much hotter halogens.  It's just that LED's lifespans relate to operating temperature more critically and it seems the suppliers of hoods say little about performance for LED's.

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## justonething

I was thinking that you could use a heatsink bar mounting on top of the Led downlights. There will be one heatsink bar connecting several downlights. The bar will act as additional heatsink conducting heat away and will sit above all insulation. One bar can be connected to several downlights.

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## phild01

> I was thinking that you could use a heatsink bar mounting on top of the Led downlights. There will be one heatsink bar connecting several downlights. The bar will act as additional heatsink conducting heat away and will sit above all insulation. One bar can be connected to several downlights.

  I would think if you can manage to conduct heat above the insulation layer then by this time, any additional heatsinking as you suggest would be superfluous.  I do like the idea of putting a hole in the insulation and venting.  This I reckon would be sufficient.

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## ChocDog

I just recently installed a combination of about 20 Martec Shadowline (gimble) and Genesis LEDs after getting good recommendations from Whirlpool etc. The Shadowline can not be covered by batts but the Genesis can be (but as the guys said above, not the driver). 
 Martec are a reputable Oz company (fans,lighting, etc) whereas I was finding that a lot of the LEDs on offer were from fly by night startup companies from OS without any real reputation to them. Anyway, I couldnt be happier with them. Style wise they look great, operationally they look great (3000k units) and the individual LEDs are not visible (that look annoys me) and they dim really well. Plus if you shop around you can get them very competitively. I got them from Eurolight (for a bit over $30 each):  Martec Genesis White Finish 3000K Warm White LED Downlight Kit Genesis White Finish 3000K LED Downlight Kit [MLGD3010WD] - $23.00 - Lighting Australia | Lighting Online | Bathroom Lighting | Ceiling Fans Australia | Downlights Melbourne | Eurolight 16W Shadowline LED Downlight Kit, 120° (White) Warm White Light 6 Pack Bundle 16W Shadowline LED Downlight Kit, 120° (White) Warm White Light 6 Pack Bundle [MLSG3012WD_6] - $245.95 - Lighting Australia | Lighting Online | Bathroom Lighting | Ceiling

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## Whitey180

Just be wary that if you do get 240v LEDs and you get a spike / surge you can fry every light even if it's not turned on at the time. Yes this can still happen with 12v however the transformers will take most of the brunt, and usually are ok.

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## goldie1

> I just recently installed a combination of about 20 Martec Shadowline (gimble) and Genesis LEDs after getting good recommendations from Whirlpool etc. The Shadowline can not be covered by batts but the Genesis can be (but as the guys said above, not the driver). 
>  Martec are a reputable Oz company (fans,lighting, etc) whereas I was finding that a lot of the LEDs on offer were from fly by night startup companies from OS without any real reputation to them. Anyway, I couldnt be happier with them. Style wise they look great, operationally they look great (3000k units) and the individual LEDs are not visible (that look annoys me) and they dim really well. Plus if you shop around you can get them very competitively. I got them from Eurolight (for a bit over $30 each):  Martec Genesis White Finish 3000K Warm White LED Downlight Kit Genesis White Finish 3000K LED Downlight Kit [MLGD3010WD] - $23.00 - Lighting Australia | Lighting Online | Bathroom Lighting | Ceiling Fans Australia | Downlights Melbourne | Eurolight 16W Shadowline LED Downlight Kit, 120° (White) Warm White Light 6 Pack Bundle 16W Shadowline LED Downlight Kit, 120° (White) Warm White Light 6 Pack Bundle [MLSG3012WD_6] - $245.95 - Lighting Australia | Lighting Online | Bathroom Lighting | Ceiling

  Ended up using the Martec genesis 3000K led   All installed and every one happy. Lights are covered 
with batts with the drivers above the batts.

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## ChocDog

Good stuff Goldie, you'll be happy. We can't fault them.

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