# Forum Home Renovation Heating & Cooling  Ducted Gas Heating? Brivis, Bonaire or Braemar

## Sir Stinkalot

Ok ..... with winter fast approaching I think it is time to put in some heating. 
I have settled on natural gas ducted, venting from the floor, unit in ceiling, min R1.0 ducts and the higher energy rating range. 
My quick search narrows it down to the three B's 
Brivis
Bonaire and 
Braemar. 
I have sent off floor plans to the Brivis and Bonaire dealers for quotes but I just wanted to check with the forum brains trust as to reliable brands and if there is anything else I should be looking for. 
Cheers 
Stinky.

----------


## chrisp

Stinky, 
I can only tell you my experience.  I've had a Brivis Multiplex which worked faultlessly for almost 14 years - until http://www.renovateforum.com/f193/he...-repair-96444/  
Why did I choose Brivis?  At the time, it was the most efficient (going by the Government star rating system) and one of the most high-tech units on the market.  (I can tell you tales of woe of quoters pushing another brand even when I explicitly asked for a quote on a Brivis). 
I think my experience is probably a little too old to go by now, so hopefully some better responses will follow soon.   :Smilie:

----------


## Sir Stinkalot

Thanks Chrisp ...... I did a search and came across a mix of issues with both the Brivis and the Bonaire but given they are the most popular it isn't that unusual. 
To be honest 14 years isn't a bad run from your Brivis unit and although frustrating the fix didn't seem that bad and even if you needed to have a service call it shouldn't have topped $250 or so. 
I have sent off emails to both Brivis and Bonaire outlining what I am after. It is always fun to see how interested a company is when you basically throw a job at them and see how long it takes to respond. When the quotes come in hopefully there will be a clear winner (not necessarily the cheapest but who will do the best job). 
Cheers 
Stinky

----------


## droog

After looking at the different brands I went with the Braemar, the main factor being the multizone feature of being able to set zones to different tempratures.  Braemar Gas Heating and Evaporative Cooling - Braemar Ecostar Ducted Gas Heater 
Very happy with the unit. 
Regards Dave

----------


## Sir Stinkalot

Thanks Dave. 
I have looked into the multizone however as it works out this unit will be covering the old section of the house and I will be looking at putting something else in the extension when it is done. 
In effect the old section of the house will be the sleeping areas (zone 1) and the extension will be the living area (zone 2) serviced by a separate unit.  
I had a guy over on the weekend to have a look. Despite telling him I wanted under floor ducts he started talking about ceiling mounted. After a while he got the hint that I wanted sub floor ...... and then after we had started to bond a little he went on to say that he would do it that way too in his own house  :brava: . It seems that the right way, and the regular way are not always the same. If sub floor is they way that he would do it in his own house (as it is better) why wouldn't I want the same? 
One other interesting thing he said was that in my situation (old house section and new section) I would be better off with a 3 star unit without all the bells (such as multizone) and use dampers in the floor to fine control the air flow. Seems to make sense as there will be less to go wrong but I am still not convinced to go with the better rated unit. Perhaps the additional labor costs of going under the floor will convince me otherwise! 
Cheers 
Stinky.

----------


## chrisp

> One other interesting thing he said was that in my situation (old house section and new section) I would be better off with a 3 star unit without all the bells (such as multizone) and use dampers in the floor to fine control the air flow.

  Using the same logic, wouldn't you be even better-better off with a 5/6 star unit without the bells and whistles?  :Confused:

----------


## Sir Stinkalot

> Using the same logic, wouldn't you be even better-better off with a 5/6 star unit without the bells and whistles?

  On the surface you would think that the more stars the better. I will need to look into it further but perhaps the 5/6 star units get the additional star or two thanks to the bells and whistles and you cannot get a 5/6 star unit without the extras. This would be separate room zoning, different temps for different zones etc. 
In our situation there will be no need for zones as the unit will be heating all like spaces (bedrooms) and as such will be turned on only when those spaces need heat. A zoned unit would be good for heating the living area between 9am-10pm on the weekend and only the bedrooms 6am-9am and 9pm-10pm etc. A non zoned unit will be heating all areas equally even if they are not required, increasing running costs and driving down the star rating. A zoned unit will only heat spaces required reducing running costs and increasing the star rating. 
He did comment that in our situation (fully stone house, small windows, 3m+ ceilings and R4.0 ceiling insulation, that the 3 star unit will only cost around $25 a season more to run than the 5/6 star units (saving $1000+ on the unit purchase price). Obviously each installation is different and it is a matter of sorting the good information from the bad.  
Kempe - I am looking at heating only. Not sure which unit yet but I will be keeping an eye on the installation process. 
Cheers 
Stinky.

----------


## olfella

I also have a Brivas HE5, very happy with the unit and its perfoermance.  However, I do my own repairs and source my own parts.  If you cannot do this I advise you to ask how long it takes to respond to a emergency call out - you could be surprised how long you will be without heating.

----------


## tricky4000

I always thought energy star ratings was calculated as energy service per unit of energy consumption.  It is the amount of heating capacity (output) per unit of energy it consumes (input).  That's it.  I could be wrong in thinking this.

----------


## Sir Stinkalot

> I always thought energy star ratings was calculated as energy service per unit of energy consumption.  It is the amount of heating capacity (output) per unit of energy it consumes (input).  That's it.  I could be wrong in thinking this.

  Tricky ..... you may be right but I don't know how clear cut the star ratings are. 
I would have thought that the units themselves are fairly similar as in the amount of input vs output. Looking at the bigger picture however the more efficient unit would constantly monitor its performance to meet the desired outcome (lets say staying constant at 21deg). A less efficient unit may just keep churning out the heat and not self regulate until the user decides that they are hot and turns it off.  
Both units in the example may be able to produce the same figure of input vs output however the "smarter" unit will use less input over a given time to achieve the desired result thus making it more efficient (5 stars). 
It would appear that the 4 & 5 star units use zoning controls to heat different purpose rooms (living areas vs bedrooms) to either different temperatures or at different times. This in turn produces the desired result by using less "input". A 2 or 3 star unit will just be pumping the same heat into any room at any time the unit is on and will require more "input".  
I guess it is like having to turn on all of the lights in the house when you are in one room. Having to turn on all of the lights will be less efficient than just turning on what you need.  
In my situation as all the rooms will be used for a similar purpose (bedrooms) it might be just as efficient to turn on all of the lights at the same time, which can be achieved through the lower rated units. 
To be honest I am not sure of the answer!   :Frustrated:  
The latest news however is that I have been told it will be close to $2000 more just to put the ducts in the floor and not the ceiling???? With the exception of a little additional vertical ductwork and working in a slightly more confined space I cannot see where the money is going. I might just have to buy the ductwork myself and install myself.

----------


## tricky4000

Hey Stink,
Installing the duct work yourself will save you loads on cost. Have your system designed by a pro first. Dynamic Heating and Cooling didn't charge for this when I did it.  I just purchased everything from them and they did the design work for free.  My house is a 1904 Victorian and I had to dig a lot of soil out from under my house. The duct pipe must not touch the ground. Hence your big quote. 
As for star ratings, I'm no pro either. Although, the light analogy you gave makes some sense but try to think about comparing the actual light bulb - normal light bulb vs. energy saver bulb...same light output for less usage. 
I think there are a lot of factors that establish an energy star rating. I think the higher the energy star the better the performance regardless of the environment or how its installed.  But, I'm no pro.
Tricks

----------


## Sir Stinkalot

Hi Tricky ..... I am more inclined to go with the higher rated unit even if it costs a little more however I am having trouble even getting a quote at the moment as there must be quite a few people looking at putting in units this time of year and I am sure they are more concerned about doing the easy jobs before they look at mine. 
I drafted up the plans, including the ducting layout and sent them off to the installer who was here last week so that he could provide the sizes (as he said he would). He then sent back a drawing (sketch) of the duct layout which was exactly the same as what I had provided him and then he left the sizes off  :Doh:  
When I spoke with him he told me that there were good floor registers at Bunnings and I should buy them there  :Cry:  :No:  
I have just been under the house again. I think I will get him to size up the ducts and then just buy them and install them myself. It will not be a hard job but may be fiddily and if I do it myself I know it will be done well  :Blush7: . 
On top of that I will arrange the platform in the ceiling, the double gpo and the light switch. Basically all he will have to do is supply the unit and hook up the gas.

----------


## tricky4000

You doing it your self is the best way.  You'll save the most that way and like you said, will probably end up with a better job.  I reckon if you get yourself some good R1.0 or higher duct (remember the higher the R rating the bigger the over all diametre of the pipe itself).  If you can, tape up the internal pipe really well to the register but then cover the entire register with the insulation from the pipe.  This will insulate the whole lot, all the way.  Keep your pipes as straight as possible (avoid turns and curves where possible) this will reduce air turbulance.  You probably know all this anyway.

----------


## ozheat

I used to install ducted heating all the time and I can tell you 99.99% of people who get a ducted heater because it has "zone control" feature will never use it as it requires zone control dampers installed in to your ducts.  When people get the quote for the a electrical zone control damper  ~$180 plus install with a minimum of 2 zones and all the extra ducting and branches people say forget about it.
Also if you have a difficult job with no clearance under your house a lot of people will @@@@ themself especially when they start getting the bigger duct under the house and then have to try manouver themself and then try to tape the duct up, 12" of clearance looks a lot until you have to get under there and get under the bearers and waste pipes.
I am not surprised that the installer sent the design plan back without sizing.  If you want design/sizing of your ducted system, don't BS the installer as it is clear that you are not going to get him to do the job, go to any of the heating suppliers and ask for a kit.  They will design/size for the system for free and sell you all components.

----------


## Sir Stinkalot

> If you want design/sizing of your ducted system, don't BS the installer as it is clear that you are not going to get him to do the job, go to any of the heating suppliers and ask for a kit.  They will design/size for the system for free and sell you all components.

  Ozheat I assume this is directed at me. The guy I have gone to has a shop front (selling units and ducts as well as installation) and he came around to have a look at the job. I am more than happy for him to do the entire job (underfloor) however he does not seem keen to do it as he would prefer his installers doing the easy in and out jobs to maximise the number of jobs he can do in the busy period leading up to winter (fair enough). He agreed that running the ducts under the floor was the best option and it would be what he would do if it was his own house, especially as he wouldn't be paying his own labor. He offered to size the ducts to ensure that they would fit under the floor. 
My intention (perhaps not clear in my earlier post) would be to buy everything I need off him. He did say that he often sells the ducting to home owners in remote areas or for owner builders who like to do the installation themselves. I would put in the supplied ducting myself (saving the job for his installers) and then have him supply and connect the unit. I am not expecting to save much (if anything) at all in terms of cost and I would expect the cost to be similar to the fully installed in ceiling system, however I will get the installation done the way I prefer. What I will be saving on is the additional costs that will be factored into a less than standard installation, a cost that nobody seems interesting in providing or getting involved with, which is why I am now resorting to doing the task myself. 
With the exception of the $2000 more for sub floor installation figure, which seemed to be just off the top of his head, I still haven't been able to get a quote on the system yet. The only place I have managed to get any answers out of is from the retail arm of one of the gas suppliers who punch in some basic figures on their computer and spit out a "quote" with 100 exclusions to cover themselves and will only firm up a quote when you give them a deposit for the job and make an appointment time for them to fly their installers in from Melbourne who will give you the final price on the day that they will be installing the unit.

----------


## ozheat

OK, fair enough.
Sizing is pretty easy for ducted heating. 
6" duct to each 12"x4" outlet
8" duct to each 14"x6 outlet 
8" duct to a 8-6-6 BTO (branch take off) servicing 2 6" outlets
10" duct servicing 3 to 4 6" outlets - can be a 10-6-6-6 bto or 10-8-6 bto with 8-6-6 bto or 10-8-8 bto
12" duct servicing  a 12-10-10 bto or 12-10-8-8 or 12-10-8-6
As you didn't specify how many outlets 12" will service max 12 maybe 14 outlets if you got small bathrooms & laundry outherwise it will be 14" supply & return
I gather that you are in a town house or similar as that is the reason of putting heater in the roof space, if so you will have to upgrade the heater for extra air and increase the return and supply dropper duct to 14" due to the extra resistance of a long duct run and having to push the air down the extra 10 odd foot.
PS remember that the duct sizes are for nude duct without insullation.  Add 2" for R0.6 or 4" for R1.0 so for 12" duct with R0.6 you will need a minimum of 14" clearance to the first bto.  All duct must be hung clear of the ground and all btos flully supported.
PPS.  Ducted heating comes under Plumbing-mechanical services so the plumber will have sign a complince cert for the ductwork not just for the heater.

----------


## jag

Hi.
having had recent experience with Vulcan/ Bonnaire. THEY STINK!!!!
I installed a 5 star unit 5 yrs ago and have had nothing but trouble.
There customer service is disgraceful as well.
We are now looking for another unit and leading toward the braemar, mainly for customer service reasons.
Do not rely on past reputations or you may fall into the same trap.

----------


## ozheat

Their lies the biggest problem with the high effiency units compared to standard effiency units, there is so much more components to break down.
There are 2 main problems with the vulcan powerhouse and they are the ignightor circuit and the combustion fan pressure sensor.
Getting service to your heater will always be a problem at this time of year as it is the start of the winter season and most people will discover they have problem now, you will just have to wait in line...

----------

