# Forum Home Renovation Kitchens  Fitting Dishwasher to Existing Kitchen

## hyr12k

Hi All,
I have a 3 year old kitchen that requires a dishwasher.
Is it possible to fit a standard width 60cm dishwasher to the right hand side of the sink? (see photos)
The drawer right next to the sink cupboard is 50cm wide and the 2 door cupboard next to that (far right end) is 80cm wide.
What are my options on getting a dishwasher in this space?
Would be ideal to have the dishwasher right next to the sink cupboard, which would mean I would need to somehow move the drawer to the right and also cut the kickboard. Or I could just leave the drawer where it is and use the space occupied by the 80cm wide cupboard at the far right end (and somehow figure out what to do with the remaining 20cm width space)
I am also assuming the plumbing and electrical is do-able - however I don't know how much all this would cost.
Any advise please?
Thanks

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## Whitey180

Can't comment if it will fit in the cabinetry but I would think so, normally speaking it's put right next to the sink. Power point goes in under the sink not behind the dish washer.  
Price on electrical, depends might be expensive. Looks like the house is on a slab judging from the height of the existing power points. 
If the power is run under the house and there is access and it won't overload the circuit it might not be too bad.

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## Random Username

Plumbing you should be able to do yourself; just tee off the existing cold water connection (there's typically a stop valve under the sink that the tap connects to) to connect to the dishwasher and there's usually a connection spout on the U bend under the sink for the dishwasher drain. 
 A sparky should be able to drop wire for an extra power point down the inside of the wall from that existing point the radio is plugged into...say maybe $80-$120-$150ish if it's still an outside wall in that area. 
Personally, I'd think about making the drawers bigger to use the extra 200mm of space left by putting in a dishwasher.  This would require new drawer fronts, bottoms and backs, but you could reuse the hardware and sides. 
Otherwise the 200mm becomes storage for some wine bottles or cake and oven racks or both. 
If you want to relocate the drawers to put the dishwasher where they are now, that shouldn't take too much effort - typically a dozen screws and you're done. Typically the sink cupboard is one cabinet, the drawers will be another, and the cabinet on the right, yet another.  Pretty much like playing with lego, only chipboard not plastic and you can't accidentally step on it in the dark!

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## justonething

I had retrofitted a dishwasher to an existing cupboard before. My advice is 
1. The depth and height of the dishwasher are the important dimensions here. You might as well do some research and find out the height and depth and see if it will fit under the bench top, add 50 - 80 mm to the depth to see if the dishwasher will fit in or will it stick out.
2. How far away from the sink is governed by the length of the water inlet and waste. You may want to consider relocating those drawers. The most logical place is to place the dishwasher next to your sink considering the work flow, rinse and scrap out the rubbish on your dishes before placing in your dishwasher for example.
3. You probably need to consider if you want a standalone or built in type dishwasher. Either way, you will have to cut out the space from below the bench top, and remove the carcase, keep the top board if possible. You may also need to sand and apply finish to the now exposed floor boards. Next you need to close off the openings in the cupboards created by cutting out the carcase.
4. I would put the power point away from any water services under the sink. You might consider put your power point on the right of dishwasher inside the cupboard.
5. Water connections can be made by branching out from the sink water supply and waste will go in the sink waste.
6. You have a power point above the bench. It should be relatively easy to extend the wiring to give a new power point for the dishwasher. 
Every thing is doable, but you will have to consider if it will look alright. For example, the bench and the cupboard doesn't look very deep and the dishwasher may stick out, would that look ok. If you are handy, you can do just about everything yourself.

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## hyr12k

Thank you both for your great advice.  The house is on piers and is elevated about 1 meter off the ground. Great to hear that the electrical and plumbing  are good. 
In relation to the cabinetry, great idea to use wider drawers. What work do I need to do to the kick board and how do I finish off the 2 sides in the space where the dishwasher will go? Do I need panels?

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## hyr12k

Thank you justonething for your useful tips. Off the wall the depth is 595mm to the edge if the bench top. Does the back panel in the base cabinets need to stay? If so then I will only have 575mm so a standard 600mm deep dishwasher may stick out abit. Need to do my research here. The height I have from the ground to the underside of the stone bench top is 860mm so I should be ok here. Agree that the dishwasher will need to be next to the sink so the drawers will need shifted to the right. Not sure I need to sand and finish the floor as it will be covered by the dishwasher. I just don't know what to do with the kick board. Cut it with a hand saw?

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## hyr12k

Also what do you recommend for my situation - a free standing or built in dishwasher? Any major pros/cons when it comes to fitment in my case? Happy to consider either.

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## phild01

I take it a corner cupboard prohibits fitting a dishwasher under the sinks draining section left-side!
Could a new sink that fits existing bench cut-out make this fit better and leave drawers as they are.

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## Random Username

Typically the only difference between a free standing dishwasher and a built in is that the free standing model comes with a top that you pop onto it. 
As for cutting the kickboards...they look like just melamine faced board to me.  It cuts badly with hand saws (unless you use something with very fine teeth like a hacksaw or a japanese pull saw).  I'd see if it comes off (often they just clip on, or have a few screws right up by the cabinet base) to rough cut it and finish the edge with a router and some iron-on veneer, OR you might get a passable cut with one of the multi-function power tools. 
You can panel the inside of the dishwasher cut out, but this adds two 16mm edges you have to do something with; it's easier to leave the insides bare as no-one will see them when the dishwasher is in place. 
You can get dishwashers that are about 570mm deep.

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## justonething

Free standing dishwasher is slightly wider and taller, may or may not be very slightly deeper. If you can hide the dishwasher completely then there is no point in having a free standing one which I think is generally dearer as well, but if not, you have to consider how much it will stick out, if it is anything more than the door's width, then you don't want a built in. 
I cut the kick board together with the rest of the carcase with a circular saw and a fine tooth blade and set to a shallow depth, and finished with a jigsaw. If you want to cut it with a hand saw, you might want to use a utility knife to first score the surface. 
You can cut out the back panel for extra room, but you might need extra screws on the remaining batten to secure the cupboard to the wall. I would also advice you to panel the inside of the cut out to give you extra rigidity and support for the shelves. Just make sure you allow for openings for running of hoses and cable/plug. You should be able to get panels that either come with the edge strip or get edge strips yourself and glue them on, but the latter is more troublesome. 
You also need to plan how to secure the dishwasher, either using the supplied brackets or make your own restraints. You don't want your dishwasher to tip out as you stack or unstack your dishes. 
You also want to make sure your cut out will fit the most common of the dishwashers but no wider. You might want to get another dishwasher at a later date would like as many choices as possible.

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## hyr12k

Thanks again guys for your input. Extremely helpful. This is the first time I have posted a question like this on the internet and am amazed by peoples support and guidance.  Could not find anything about this on YouTube or Google which I thought was odd but you guys have been great.

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## Renopa

Don't write off dishdrawers if a single unit dishwasher is not the right size.  Not sure what capacity you need, but they come in single or double (stacked) but 2 x singles can be installed side-by-side.  I have a double (stacked) because it came at the right price due to the back panel having a small dent, but my preference would be 2 x singles installed directly under the bench with pot drawers below each dishdrawer.   Can highly recommend them for doing a good job and being oh-so-quiet...can be standing next to mine and have to look at the LCD to make sure it's working!

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## phild01

> Don't write off dishdrawers if a single unit dishwasher is not the right size.  Not sure what capacity you need, but they come in single or double (stacked) but 2 x singles can be installed side-by-side.  I have a double (stacked) because it came at the right price due to the back panel having a small dent, but my preference would be 2 x singles installed directly under the bench with pot drawers below each dishdrawer.   Can highly recommend them for doing a good job and being oh-so-quiet...can be standing next to mine and have to look at the LCD to make sure it's working!

  Do you mean the F&P Drawer types?
Also, Dishwashers can be got narrower than the standard 600mm: Appliances - Dishwashers - Compact - SKE53M05AU

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## Random Username

Standard dishwasher cutout width is 610mm, so that's the size I'd recommend.  If a dishwasher doesn't fit in that width, it's the dishwasher's problem - even a commercial Washtech unit will fit into that size! 
If you are going to be cutting melamine faced board, make a few practice cuts!

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## Renopa

> Do you mean the F&P Drawer types?
> Also, Dishwashers can be got narrower than the standard 600mm: Appliances - Dishwashers - Compact - SKE53M05AU

  I meant the F&P Dishdrawer, don't have any experience with any other brands so can't really comment.   
<http://www.fisherpaykel.com/au/kitchen/dishwashing/dishdrawer/>   :Biggrin:

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> Standard dishwasher cutout width is 610mm, so that's the size I'd recommend.  If a dishwasher doesn't fit in that width, it's the dishwasher's problem - even a commercial Washtech unit will fit into that size! 
> If you are going to be cutting melamine faced board, make a few practice cuts!

  Ummm, no its not! 
Most dishwashers are 596-598mm wide. I allow a 603mm space. Anymore than that and you end up with massive gaps either side.

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## Random Username

603mm is what _you_ allow.  That doesn't make it a commonly accepted standard, unlike 610mm which_ is_ a common standard dimension.

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## justonething

> Could not find anything about this on YouTube or Google which I thought was odd but you guys have been great.

  Perhaps this time you can upload your experience and help those who will be following your foot steps  :Smilie:

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## arms

> Hi All,
> I have a 3 year old kitchen that requires a dishwasher.
> Is it possible to fit a standard width 60cm dishwasher to the right hand side of the sink? (see photos)
> The drawer right next to the sink cupboard is 50cm wide and the 2 door cupboard next to that (far right end) is 80cm wide.
> What are my options on getting a dishwasher in this space?
> Would be ideal to have the dishwasher right next to the sink cupboard, which would mean I would need to somehow move the drawer to the right and also cut the kickboard. Or I could just leave the drawer where it is and use the space occupied by the 80cm wide cupboard at the far right end (and somehow figure out what to do with the remaining 20cm width space)
> I am also assuming the plumbing and electrical is do-able - however I don't know how much all this would cost.
> Any advise please?
> Thanks

  from your photos ,replace the sink cabinet with the right hand cabinet which looks to be smaller than move the drawers to the end of the run and you should be left with a space wide enough for the dishwasher

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> 603mm is what _you_ allow.  That doesn't make it a commonly accepted standard, unlike 610mm which_ is_ a common standard dimension.

  How is 610mm a common standard dimension??? 
Yes I allow 603mm but so do all the cabinet makers and kitchen companies I know and 603 is what has been specified by all the designers and architects I have worked for!!! 
603mm will give you a perfect fit and finish and correct door gaps. 
610mm will give you large 8mm gaps either side which look awful and for me is the sign of a poor tradesman or someone who hasn't installed a dishwasher before!!!

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## Random Username

610mm is what was quoted to me by a kitchen cabinet maker some 30 years ago when I was first getting a kitchen made.  For the two houses where I've added a dishwasher to an existing space, that space has been 610mm wide. For the house I'm currently in (built 2011), the cabinet housing the dishwasher (as measured just now) is ...610mm wide.   
When I helped install my sister's dishwasher, the existing dishwasher space was...610mm.   
Miele even sell trim pieces for the standard 610mm cabinet as part number GPL 77-1, in white, black or stainless steel. 
610mm also happens to be the metric equivalent of 24", which is the cutout size used in the US, for those people who like weird and wacky brands that are primarily aimed at the US market.  Note that some brands (like Asco) also recommend a _minimum_ 3mm clearance both sides, so that would take their 599 wide dishwasher to 605mm minimum. 
So yea, I think 610mm is a pretty commonplace standard.   
Also: Remember to allow 610mm for dishwasher  make sure its 610mm wide.  _610mm_ wide _dishwasher_ recess  Virtually all _dishwashers_ are 24" (about _610mm_) wide  leave a gap of 610mm  What i needed to do was make an opening about _610mm_ wide for the _Dishwasher_  If the _dishwasher_ cutout is a standard 24” _wide_  _dishwasher_ needs a _610mm_ wide _space_  610mm space for normal dishwasher space  Dishwashers are 24" wide  24 inches wide  *Dishwashers:*24"  Typically standard 24” W  Dishwashers are usually 24” wide  standard size dishwasher is about 24 inches wide 
salespeople we talked to said that all _dishwashers_ are 24" _standard_ 
Oh, and you yourself have recommended 605mm, not 603mm, here, so 605/603mm has not been a very stable standard allowance, has it?

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## OBBob

Oh my... the poor OP just wanted a dishwasher...

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> 610mm is what was quoted to me by a kitchen cabinet maker some 30 years ago when I was first getting a kitchen made.  For the two houses where I've added a dishwasher to an existing space, that space has been 610mm wide. For the house I'm currently in (built 2011), the cabinet housing the dishwasher (as measured just now) is ...610mm wide.   
> When I helped install my sister's dishwasher, the existing dishwasher space was...610mm.   
> Miele even sell trim pieces for the standard 610mm cabinet as part number GPL 77-1, in white, black or stainless steel. 
> 610mm also happens to be the metric equivalent of 24", which is the cutout size used in the US, for those people who like weird and wacky brands that are primarily aimed at the US market.  Note that some brands (like Asco) also recommend a _minimum_ 3mm clearance both sides, so that would take their 599 wide dishwasher to 605mm minimum. 
> So yea, I think 610mm is a pretty commonplace standard.   
> Also: Remember to allow 610mm for dishwasher  make sure its 610mm wide.  _610mm_ wide _dishwasher_ recess  Virtually all _dishwashers_ are 24" (about _610mm_) wide  leave a gap of 610mm  What i needed to do was make an opening about _610mm_ wide for the _Dishwasher_  If the _dishwasher_ cutout is a standard 24” _wide_  _dishwasher_ needs a _610mm_ wide _space_  610mm space for normal dishwasher space  Dishwashers are 24" wide  24 inches wide  *Dishwashers:*24"  Typically standard 24” W  Dishwashers are usually 24” wide  standard size dishwasher is about 24 inches wide 
> salespeople we talked to said that all _dishwashers_ are 24" _standard_ 
> Oh, and you yourself have recommended 605mm, not 603mm, here, so 605/603mm has not been a very stable standard allowance, has it?

  
My god what a rant and its all based on your experience of a few kitchens over 30 years! What a joke! We are in Australia not the US!!! I am not sure why arm chair experts like arguing with professionals who do this for a living?? I build over 100 kitchens a year and pull out at least 50 old kitchens and have been doing it for 2 years, I think I might just have a little more experience than you!!!. I have used every brand of dishwasher out there and get to see how others do it!   
First up you say "oh and you yourself have recommended 605 not 603" you have no clue, every dishwasher I have installed this year has a 598-599mm body but a 596-597 face or door. Add 3mm gaps either side of the door and you have a 603 space!  
Your link are to renovation sites, volume builders, US sites and are in inchs, so what? That proves how little they know and what a shonky job they do!! Lets have a look at a few links to Australian dishwasher installation manuals,  
Link to Miele installation of there dishwashers, oh they are specifying a 600mm space!  Dishwasher - G 5500 SCi - Miele Australia 
Link to Bosch installation manual, opps looks like they are also spacing a 600mm space Appliances - Dishwashers - Semi-Integrated - SMI69M15AU 
Link to Fisher and Paykel manual http://www.fisherpaykel.com/vault/pd...NZAUGBIEw2.pdf 
Link to Smeg manual, again they specify a 600mm space http://www.smeg.com.au/smeg_au/docs/...=53e93c86030c7 
I could go on and on with installation manuals but I wont.  
The fact is if you want a quality kitchen install with correct door gaps 2-3mm either side then a 610mm space just wont cut it!! 
You also need to know that we constantly build our oven and rangehood cabinets to actually suit the exact appliance sitting in our factory. The installation manuals are close but can vary by 2-3mm which can be the difference between a quality job and just an average job. Dishwashers are just the same, we always open the box and measure it before setting the space onsite. 
But what would I know, I only do this for a living fitting expensive kitchens every day of my life into houses on the northern beaches of Sydney, fact is if I left a 610mm space my clients would complain like hell and want the kitchen refitted!

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

Sorry to the OP but I just cant let incorrect information be given. You have a nice kitchen and should do the job properly! 
Back on topic, 
Yes you can fit a dishwasher, it wont be easy as the stone will have been glued to the cabinets. 
Quick tip, if the stone has been installed correctly the glue can be reactivated with a heat gun allowing you to remove the cabinets. Sliding a thin paint scraper between the cabinet and stone while heating the glue can also help.  
I would start be removing the 2 door cabinet on the right of the drawers, slide the drawers along to allow a 603mm space then cut the two door cabinet down to fit the space left. You could also have a new cabinet built if cutting it down is to difficult. 
You will need to cut the kickboard out in the newly created dishwasher space to allow the appliance to fit in. The kick face can now be reinstalled.

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## phild01

I am not a kitchen maker but have built several over many years.  This argument is interesting.  When I built mine some 25 years ago, I allowed 610mm.  But when I upgraded the dishwasher to an Asko 15 years ago I reduced the opening to 604mm because when I built the kitchen I did gaps to very close tolerances.  I wanted the dishwasher to fit the look properly. 
Kitchen expectations from early days have changed and 610mm would have been once an acceptable space to allow.  By my own experience, I have to agree that 610 no longer cuts the mustard.

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## Godzilla73

A few of the European D/W only need 600mm. Best advice, supply the installation instructions to the mob doing the kitchen.

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## hyr12k

Cheers fellas
Given everyone's comments, I've decided to get some quotes from kitchen makers for this job. I received a quote today to moves the draws near the sink to the right to free up space for a dishwasher. This will leave 200mm of free cupboard space at the far right end which he will turn into a single door cupboard (trimming existing door) which I could use for flat trays and chopping blocks. The quote I received for this work is $450. All labour no parts. Is this price reasonable?

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## OBBob

Doesn't sound too bad considering it could be rather painful to do yourself. Keep in mind you then need to add electrical and plumbing for the dishwasher.

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## hyr12k

Yes electrical will come next but I will do the plumbing myself.

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## Random Username

You want a space that fits a domestic dishwasher (brand unspecified), guaranteed? Use 610mm.  That's what is meant by a standard.   
A standard is not something that is checked and tailored to each individual installation and that could be upset by something as simple as a change from one brand of self-tapping pan head screw to another by a manufacturer.  That's a customised install. 
I'm talking "buy dishwasher, slam it into a hole".  A simple operation that has no real "ooh, we have to be careful not to scrape the panels with a rough screw head or metal bit as we slide it in" consequences. 
And methodologically, a sample of 'a few kitchens over 30 years' is a better representation of what is common in the market than "expensive kitchens ... (installed by one particular installer over a period of two years) ... into houses on the northern beaches of Sydney".  
You "always open the box and measure it before setting the space onsite."  This implies that there is uncertainty about if the dishwasher will fit in the space you consider standard.  That's...just so not what is meant by a standard.  That's like saying "The standard mains voltage in Australia is 230 volts AC, except when it's 190 volts or 250 volts and it's sometimes 40hz and sometimes 60hz". 
Your observations relate to high end clients with demanding needs.  To many other people, a dishwasher is simply a tool for washing dishes, and it makes no other kitchen statement than "Yay! I don't have to wash dishes by hand". 
Your dishwasher size cutout preferences have lost 2mm since you first stated them in late 2012.  Since you've now pointed out that a number of manufacturers specify 600mm, are you going to be shaving a further 3mm off your current 603mm standard, or will you disregard the manufacturer's stated 600mm and keep using 603mm, in the way that you do now (that is, expect to use 603mm but measure every instance to confirm if it will work or not?) 
Standard = something you can use again and again and again without having to check every time.

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## phild01

Gotta say it is a fair point that the hole should accept any future dishwasher on the market and shouldn't be tailored to one particular brand....simply because an upgrade might be necessary, a kitchen might see a few dishwashers in it's life.
I suppose the point should be is there a standard dishwasher width that manufacturers will always adhere to.

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## arms

> You want a space that fits a domestic dishwasher (brand unspecified), guaranteed? Use 610mm.  That's what is meant by a standard.   
> A standard is not something that is checked and tailored to each individual installation and that could be upset by something as simple as a change from one brand of self-tapping pan head screw to another by a manufacturer.  That's a customised install. 
> I'm talking "buy dishwasher, slam it into a hole".  A simple operation that has no real "ooh, we have to be careful not to scrape the panels with a rough screw head or metal bit as we slide it in" consequences. 
> And methodologically, a sample of 'a few kitchens over 30 years' is a better representation of what is common in the market than "expensive kitchens ... (installed by one particular installer over a period of two years) ... into houses on the northern beaches of Sydney".  
> You "always open the box and measure it before setting the space onsite."  This implies that there is uncertainty about if the dishwasher will fit in the space you consider standard.  That's...just so not what is meant by a standard.  That's like saying "The standard mains voltage in Australia is 230 volts AC, except when it's 190 volts or 250 volts and it's sometimes 40hz and sometimes 60hz". 
> Your observations relate to high end clients with demanding needs.  To many other people, a dishwasher is simply a tool for washing dishes, and it makes no other kitchen statement than "Yay! I don't have to wash dishes by hand". 
> Your dishwasher size cutout preferences have lost 2mm since you first stated them in late 2012.  Since you've now pointed out that a number of manufacturers specify 600mm, are you going to be shaving a further 3mm off your current 603mm standard, or will you disregard the manufacturer's stated 600mm and keep using 603mm, in the way that you do now (that is, expect to use 603mm but measure every instance to confirm if it will work or not?) 
> Standard = something you can use again and again and again without having to check every time.

  the main reason you check the product size is because ALL manufacturers of appliances have this sneaky disclaimer in the smallest of writing on the back page of the manual saying that they can change the specs and sizes at any time . and you are squabling over 3mm or 7mm difference ,who cares as long as the appliance fits

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## Pitto

> Ummm, no its not! 
> Most dishwashers are 596-598mm wide. I allow a 603mm space. Anymore than that and you end up with massive gaps either side.

  pretty much what I allow and what was speced doing commercial appartments. Intergrated units from Boch and Miele were around the 598 size, so the hole was 600.  
The job itself is doable. probably between $700-$1000 to cut the hole out. I have done this a couple of times using a multi tool and rebuilding the cabinet whilst in place. 
The only thing to watch is to make sure there is no services running under the kick that could be an issue.

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> You want a space that fits a domestic dishwasher (brand unspecified), guaranteed? Use 610mm.  That's what is meant by a standard.   
> .

  Sorry but that still isn't right. 
I have built 1000s of kitchens and am happy to allow a 603mm space without seeing brand or spec. In fact I have done It many many times when the customer couldn't make there mind up!  
Fact is this space will fit all new dishwashers with a normal opening door( it wouldn't fit the 450mm slimline)  
Sorry bud the days of 610mm dishwasher spaces went out 20 or 30 years ago!

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## Random Username

It's nice that all the ones you specify are 603mm, (now). 
But that still doesn't make 603 a standard size, any more than 600mm just because that's what some dishwashers _might_ fit into, or 605 because that was your original standard until you decided on 603. 
And contrary to your suggestion, 610 doesn't seem out of use.   
I happened to check the nearest-to-me kitchenette of the (award winning, architect designed, built in the early 2000's) office block I work in yesterday.   
Guess what the space was? Hint...it wasn't 603mm.  605? No, bigger!  607? No, bigger still! 611? Nope, too big! 
Doesn't explain the 610 mm of the (builder specified, constructed in 2011) place I live in, either. 
So what's your explanation as to why so many unrelated dishwasher spaces all equal 610mm, and why Mielle produce filler panels for the "standard 610mm cutout"??? 
Yep, it's because all these just happen to be cut out at 610mm because 610mm is a naturally occurring multiple in system 32 cabinet design, in the same way that 0, 2, 4, 6 and 8  frequently occur as the last digit of multiples of 12.  
Although I haven't done a frequency analysis to determine it for sure, 610 could be occurring so often because when you stack precisely 38.125 pieces of 16mm board face to face, it gives you 610mm.  (Actually, 0.125th of a board is silly.  It would be better to use 19,063 boards, double the measurement, divide by 1000 and subtract 0.001.) 
It could be that when you have pre-drilled holes at 32mm centres, 610 is exactly where you'd be putting the centre for the 19.0625th hole. We've all had that "Is that at 0.0004, or 0.0006 of a mm?" moment on the tape measure. 
Or in the same amazing way that an A4 sheet of paper happens to be exactly half the size of an A3, yet double the size of an A5 it could just fall out of standard sheet goods size.   
EUREKA that's it - when you cut a 1200mm wide sheet in half , you're left with two pieces each exactly 610mm wide (even with a thick kerf blade!  Amazing!!), AND if you rip a 2400 mm sheet in half, and then cut those pieces in half again, then subtract 32mm for 2x side panel thickness, you're left with 610mm again!! (1200 / 2 - 32 = 610).  That's freaky mathematics!! 
Yes.  It's obvious to me now.  610mm is a number that occurs so often in dishwasher cupboard size, not because it dates back to the pre-metric 24" standard size that was common back when dishwashers were hydraulic and powered by steam and phlogiston and were connected to the æther (because 'nets weren't common back then), but because it's simply a natural result of the size of the sheet goods that cabinets are made from, so of course it occurs frequently.   
I realise now that hardly a day goes by when I don't notice a 1200x2400 sheet being cut in half, and half again to create two (or four) 610x1200 panels!  
 It even works if your cupboard is the standard 720 high - cut the 1200 sheet to get a 720mm panel...and...wait for it...the leftover is exactly 610mm wide.  This even works if you use a chainsaw to cut the panel!  Incredible!!  
 It's just like how lantern batteries have 32AA cells in them!!! 
Thank you for solving this mystery for me!

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## Godzilla73

Our base cabinets are 748mm standard height. 😆

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> It's nice that all the ones you specify are 603mm, (now). 
> But that still doesn't make 603 a standard size, any more than 600mm just because that's what some dishwashers _might_ fit into, or 605 because that was your original standard until you decided on 603. 
> And contrary to your suggestion, 610 doesn't seem out of use.   
> I happened to check the nearest-to-me kitchenette of the (award winning, architect designed, built in the early 2000's) office block I work in yesterday.   
> Guess what the space was? Hint...it wasn't 603mm.  605? No, bigger!  607? No, bigger still! 611? Nope, too big! 
> Doesn't explain the 610 mm of the (builder specified, constructed in 2011) place I live in, either. 
> So what's your explanation as to why so many unrelated dishwasher spaces all equal 610mm, and why Mielle produce filler panels for the "standard 610mm cutout"??? 
> Yep, it's because all these just happen to be cut out at 610mm because 610mm is a naturally occurring multiple in system 32 cabinet design, in the same way that 0, 2, 4, 6 and 8  frequently occur as the last digit of multiples of 12.  
> Although I haven't done a frequency analysis to determine it for sure, 610 could be occurring so often because when you stack precisely 38.125 pieces of 16mm board face to face, it gives you 610mm.  (Actually, 0.125th of a board is silly.  It would be better to use 19,063 boards, double the measurement, divide by 1000 and subtract 0.001.) 
> ...

   
ITS AN OFFICE BLOCK KITCHEN, you can get away with just about anything. Doesn't make it right!! Commercial building is very rough and ready!  I bet if you check the specs of the dishwasher installed that it would spec a smaller gap!!!  
Meili probably produce filers for rough people that cant get the dishwasher space correct!!  
You are just rambling on with rubbish now that makes no sense. Fact is you have never built a kitchen, fact is I have built 1000s and have 1000s of happy customers. Every kitchen I have built has a 603mm space!! 
You can keep going on and on but not once have you shown a link to a new dishwasher in Australia that requires a 610 space(don't start showing free standing ones as they are not meant to be built in!) I have shown you 4 straight up that spec a 600mm space and I could have kept going. 
Why is it that you a person with clearly no experience with kitchens is happy to argue black and blue with a guy that owns a kitchen company and has been building high end kitchens for over twenty years!! I am not paid to give advice on these forums. Its completely free of charge and free of any vested interest.  
I am not going to feed your keyboard heroics anymore as you clearly have no trade back ground in kitchens and don't seem to care about a kitchen looking good with the correct gaps! 
Have a great day!

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## arms

calm , think of a wind coming off the sea blowing across your face as you lie in a hammock sipping a long cool beer wondering what the peasants are doing with their day  mmmmmmmmmmmmm,

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## OBBob

> calm , think of a wind coming off the sea blowing across your face as you lie in a hammock sipping a long cool beer wondering what the peasants are doing with their day  mmmmmmmmmmmmm,

  Should the beer be served at 6 degrees or 9 degrees??  :Happyb:

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## Godzilla73

I say 3 degrees, as it's a multiple of 6 and 9...

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## arms

> I say 3 degrees, as it's a multiple of 6 and 9...

  I just get it calmed down and you go and stoke the fire  jeez

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## Godzilla73

Cabinet Makers mate, apparently all I do is make lots of noise and a big mess... 😅

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## phild01

1 degree for me please :Biggrin:

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## arms

just the way I like them ,just above freezing

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## r3nov8or

> just the way I like them ,just above freezing

   How much space do you leave around your fridge?

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## OBBob

> I just get it calmed down and you go and stoke the fire  jeez

  Sorry... I let Friday afternoon get in the way of my judgement.  :Frown:

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## phild01

Just working out the fridge gap for the kitchen about to do :Cry:

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## arms

> How much space do you leave around your fridge?

  try to get 50mm both sides and 75mm on the top ,
now don't start with the "I leave 72mm because that's the width of a standard human hand to get in and clean the top" rubbish

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## Random Username

Well, I've only ever built two complete kitchens from scratch (that's from sheet goods, not from kit), and sure, I'm no expert at it.  But I've never made myself out as an expert kitchen builder.  
The only claim I have made is that 610mm is the standard allowance for a dishwasher, a claim which I believe I've repeatedly substantiated.   
I've made no claims to the measurement's fitness for purpose, or that it is the only measurement that should be used. 
I've only ever said that it has been in active use as a space to shove a dishwasher in for at least the last 30ish years.  It is the measurement that, if you use it, you can't go wrong with it.   
But if you think that only professional opinion counts, then this should meet or exceed all your 'professional business criteria': 
1) Australian owned business (just like yours)
2) In business for over 25 years (that's over ten times as long as you), 
3) from three locations (Sydney, Perth and the ACT) (I'll call that two more locations than you...technically, that should be totalled up by local government areas if you just work on the North Shore)
4) Plus, they've done international work (joinery for the Australian Embassy in Tokyo)
and they say...Remember to allow 610mm for dishwasher 
Ohhh...sorry, they don't have a trade background, do they. They just a family company that make kitchens. Well, they're out, then, aren't they?  
PS.  So does anyone know what the standard fridge gap is?????????  
PPS. But...1,000's and 1,000's of happy customers?  Even assuming you're counting by person (2.5 people in the average North Shore dwelling) that means you are putting in about a kitchen a day, with no time off for weekends or holidays.  Impressive! (and only 380 people live in the North Shore so there's lots of repeat business) 
PPSS "Every kitchen I have built has a 603mm space!!"  Except for the ones where you were using a 605mm space, as detailed in your post here in 2012 - "I leave a space of 605mm for all dishwashers"

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## arms

moving right along

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## OBBob

hyr12k... did you decide to go ahead?  :Biggrin:

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> Well, I've only ever built two complete kitchens from scratch (that's from sheet goods, not from kit), and sure, I'm no expert at it.  But I've never made myself out as an expert kitchen builder.  
> The only claim I have made is that 610mm is the standard allowance for a dishwasher, a claim which I believe I've repeatedly substantiated.   
> I've made no claims to the measurement's fitness for purpose, or that it is the only measurement that should be used. 
> I've only ever said that it has been in active use as a space to shove a dishwasher in for at least the last 30ish years.  It is the measurement that, if you use it, you can't go wrong with it.   
> But if you think that only professional opinion counts, then this should meet or exceed all your 'professional business criteria': 
> 1) Australian owned business (just like yours)
> 2) In business for over 25 years (that's over ten times as long as you), 
> 3) from three locations (Sydney, Perth and the ACT) (I'll call that two more locations than you...technically, that should be totalled up by local government areas if you just work on the North Shore)
> 4) Plus, they've done international work (joinery for the Australian Embassy in Tokyo)
> ...

     
Not feeding the troll anymore!

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## Random Username

Ummm...stating factual information is not trolling, just so you know.  
But I thought you said you weren't coming back to this thread?  (now, that last comment _is_ trolling).

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## r3nov8or

My dishwasher recess is 605mm wide. It could be a little tighter I reckon. Second dishwasher in that space... F&P and now AEG.  
OP, if you are still to decide on a brand, AEG is the best one we have ever had. An absolute gem. Freestanding | AEG | Products | Dishwashing

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> Ummm...stating factual information is not trolling, just so you know.  
> But I thought you said you weren't coming back to this thread?  (now, that last comment _is_ trolling).

  
Still not feeding the troll

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## hyr12k

> hyr12k... did you decide to go ahead?

  I am going ahead and am in the process of finding a suitable kitchen fitter.
I'm keen on getting a quote if anybody in the Sydney area is interested in this type of work then PM me.
I'm in the Parramatta area.

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## cabman

pm sent

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## OBBob

Glad to hear,  I think it'll be a valuable addition if you can manage it.

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## arms

> you say "whichever is most straightforward" but think ahead, if you  fit an integrated one it will blend in a lot better and will look more  Professional. so i would go for the "integrated" option, this means that  you don't have to cut down the plinth, and you don't need to take out  the unit, you would have to put a shelf in there, but you can do this by  screwing a length of two inch by one inch wood on to the sides of the  unit. you would also have to buy a new door to match the existing  doors/drawers. i don't think there is much difference in the cost of an  integrated dish washer as opposed to a free standing one. you also have  the problem of getting water to the area and drainage to take the dirty  water away.  
> good luck.

  well I for one will leave this one alone

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## shauck

Seems to be bombing a lot of threads everywhere. I suggest you don't leave it alone, for the sake of future readers of this thread.

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## phild01

> Seems to be bombing a lot of threads everywhere. I suggest you don't leave it alone, for the sake of future readers of this thread.

  PM sent.

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## Random Username

jamestaylorad is most certainly a clueless spammer - the only comments he has made that aren't in strained English are a copy-paste of posts at other forums (the one with "I am a builder and I can tell you that  Skillion roofs do use marginally more materials" is one, his reply in this thread comes from Yahoo answers back in 2009).

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## arms

I don't mean to leave this thread , I mean to not comment on this brainiacs suggestion

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## arms

> jamestaylorad is most certainly a clueless spammer - the only comments he has made that aren't in strained English are a copy-paste of posts at other forums (the one with "I am a builder and I can tell you that  Skillion roofs do use marginally more materials" is one, his reply in this thread comes from Yahoo answers back in 2009).

  just dissect his username  james Taylor ad

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## hyr12k

> pm sent

   
End result thanks to the work of CABMAN. Great job! New 200mm base cabinet to match. Existing draws shifted to the right. Kickboard alterations and new support brackets above the dishwasher to support the bench top. The 605mm spacing for the dishwasher turned out to be SPOT ON. Will be recommending you with any kitchen jobs I hear about! Thanks again.

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## phild01

:2thumbsup:

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## cabman

Glad your happy with the job  
Turned out very nice and thanks for the comments 
cheers

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## OBBob

Nice result... you'd never know was changed!

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## Renopa

Looks great!  ;-)

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