# Forum Home Renovation Retaining Walls  what do you think about this new timber retaining wall?

## charlie01

What do you think about this new timber retaining wall?   
Is it normal or standard to have the sleepers sitting on top of the Ag pipe rather than on the ground surface? The sleepers are about 7cm above the ground level. The wall is 1.4m high and 33m long.

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## Poirot

I guess the sleepers are not really sitting on the ag pipe or the pipe would be fairly flat by now?
Are the sleepers not fixed to the post with bolts?
And being over 1m high it should be engineered and inspected anyway.
No problem with the 7 cm above the ground, depending on what will happen next, it does not look finished as is.

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## president_ltd

1. the agg pipe (as pictured) cannot be used, its broken.
2. i'd argue its likely the WRONG kind of agg pipe anyway.  socked is the only way to go, with appropriate aggregate around it 
as a guess i'd say its not yet finished and/or they just used some agg pipe offcuts to hold the sleepers straight.

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## charlie01

Thanks for the reply.
The construction was finished 2 months ago.
I don't think the sleepers are fixed to the post with bolts as I can't see bolts. Possibly they are fixed to the posts with nails behind the posts. (see photo below)   
The Ag pipe and the gap were concealed by the dirt as you can see in the photo. 
I have been driving around and around but I haven't seen a retaining wall that is not sitting on the ground. My concern is that the nails may not be able to hold the heavy sleepers for a long time if the sleepers are not sitting on the ground.

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## Poirot

The sleepers don't need to sit on the ground really, as they are not supporting any load from above, they are only retaining dirt from the side.
Other walls probably look like they are not sitting on the ground, because the soil has been topped up to hide the gap under the sleepers. That will also provide some extra support I guess when you put dirt up to it and underneath it, but it does not need it. If it would need support underneath, then it would need a concrete base.

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## stevoh741

Mate that is the dodgyest bit of retaining wall work I've seen in a while. That agi drain is doing nothing. For that wall to be drained properly it would have a 20mm drainage gravel filter fabric (geotec fabric) enclosed layer directly behind the wall with a continuous socked aggi drain preferably sloping behind the wall. The fabric allows water into the drainage and drained away via the aggi pipe whilst preventing any dirt from getting into the drainage layer. Your wall looks to be completely packed with dirt and just a few bits of rubbish aggi chucked in the bottom. As it is, with some decent rain the dirt will fill with water and load the wall from behind until it fails. I hope you didn't pay good money for this.... 
On second look at your photos the timber dosen't even look like it is treated  :Shock:

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## goldie1

Certainly looks sus. Can you get any more info about it?  Did it go through council? Was it inspected by council? 
Was it designed by an engineer? At 1.4m it should have been and certainly needs proper drainage behind it . Only way to be sure is to  
dig down behind it if possible.

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## charlie01

Thanks guys. 
The retaining wall was designed by an engineer. However the landscaper didn't follow the instruction. According to the engineer plan, both footing and drainage should be inspected by an engineer. I told the landscaper that I would get our engineer in to do the inspection. But he said he had arranged his engineer and he said it was included in the quote/contract. However his engineer didn't inspect the drainage.  
Regarding whether the timber was treated or not, how can I find out? May be a laboratory test? I would hire somebody to do the test. 
The Ag piper is not behind the wall / sleepers but just below the sleepers and in some sections outside the sleepers. (see photo below)    
I have refused to pay the final payment.

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## Poirot

> Regarding whether the timber was treated or not, how can I find out?

  You got any offcuts laying around? They should have a label attached at the end that would detail the treatment, and one of the numbers should be at least H4 (maybe even H5), anything below that is not suitable for in-ground use.

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## goldie1

The ag pipe shown in the photos isn't drainage. Its just off cuts laid along the base of the wall. Drainage would be a section of  
gravel about 30cm square along the full length of the wall encased in geo fabric behind the wall at the base. A continuous length of  
ag pipe encased in a sock is laid near the bottom of the gravel with a fall to the wall ends. Its possible that the landscaper has not 
used geofabric around his gravel fill and has just used the pipe offcuts you can see in the photo to fill the gap to prevent the gravel 
from running under the wall when he back filled. Having said that it still looks sus to me and I would get an independant inspection 
done. The timber looks like hardwood to me . I'm sure some one will correct me but I didn't think you could get treated hardwood.

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## charlie01

> You got any offcuts laying around?

  Unfortunately no offcuts laying around. 
I'm looking for a place where the timber can be tested.

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## charlie01

> The timber looks like hardwood to me . I'm sure some one will correct me but I didn't think you could get treated hardwood

  The posts are hardwood treated to F27 (as per engineering design)

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## Master Splinter

F27 is a structural rating, not a treatment rating.  Some hardwoods are considered naturally durable, and others will turn to rot inside five years.

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## charlie01

Hi, Master Splinter, you are right. It should be treated to H5 according to the engineering design. But the colour of the timber doesn't seem right.

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## stevoh741

> I'm sure some one will correct me but I didn't think you could get treated hardwood.

  In hardwood (or softwood) in ground has to be treated to min H4. They will be either CCA or ACQ treated and depending on which the timber will look green or brown. The timber in the photo looks neither green nor brown and I would bet my left nut it is not treated.

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## stevoh741

Charlie, I hope the final payment is a big one that you are holding. You need to obtain an independant inspection of your wall - I would use your engineer that drew up the plans and have the builder of the wall rectify any problems immediately. I would also threaten reporting to the BSA if no positive outcome. It is people like this that give us decent tradies a bad name. I would also check the contractors BSA licience against the BSA licience check on their website....but I imagine you already did that prior to giving him the job...(I hope).

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## charlie01

> Charlie, I hope the final payment is a big one that you are holding. You need to obtain an independant inspection of your wall - I would use your engineer that drew up the plans and have the builder of the wall rectify any problems immediately. I would also threaten reporting to the BSA if no positive outcome. It is people like this that give us decent tradies a bad name. I would also check the contractors BSA licience against the BSA licience check on their website....but I imagine you already did that prior to giving him the job...(I hope).

  Thanks stevoh741. 
I had checked his licence on BSA's website before I hired him. I guess he might subcontracted unlicenced to do the job. i saw the people working at the site. They didn't wear company's uniform and their vehicles didn't have company's logo / sign.  
I was told to pay 50% of total quoted price as deposit, which I did. I didn't know it was illegal to demand or receive more than 10% under the Domestic Building Contract Act. I have lodged complaints to the BSA which is going to issue three fines for serious breaches of the Act (I got a call from the BSA yesterday). I read through the Act and gave the BSA a list of the breaches. The BSA is also going to investigate the defects.
Next thing I need to do is to prove that the timber was not treated as required.

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## stevoh741

Good luck with it and be sure to let us know how it goes.....Shows others that there is help when a so called contractor tries to f#%* you over. Try master builders they might be helpful in this situation too.

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## charlie01

I checked the drainage after recent rain. The surface of the Ag pipe is now covered in the mud and the slots are sealed. So the drainage can't function as it supposed to. It's bad....

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## stevoh741

anything happen from BSA or from withholding final payment? I would go out of my way to make this contractors name mud, like he did your drainage.

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## PlatypusGardens

Wow, that's bad. 
Dodgy brothers for sure.
I'm sure BSA will get to the bottom of this.    :Frown:

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## charlie01

Hi, Stevoh741,  BSA just informed him to get defects fixed in 3 weeks. BSA will then conduct an inspection . The Ag pipe is covered in mud and the drain doesn't have an outlet !!! 
I have to wait and see what BSA can do. Possibly I will take him to the Tribunal. I strongly believe that this guy should not be allowed to operate again.

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## stevoh741

totally agree. Hope it all gets sorted in your favour. Awesome you got the BSA involved as these sort of people shouldn't be allowed to work in construction.

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## PlatypusGardens

I was told when I did my BSA course to get my license, the BSA survives on fines as they don't get any funding.       :Cop:

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## wolfbunny

Hi Charlie01
Any further news regarding your retaining wall?
Interested to hear of the outcome of the inspection/rectifing of the wall?
I hope it was a good result for you.

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## charlie01

Hi guys, BSA's building inspector said the retaining wall is not defective. 
I can't believe this. This retaining wall is obviously not fully retained. It is 1.4m high and 32m long. There is an inground swimming pool in our neighbour's yard, which is only 50cm from the retaining wall.  
I believe that the BSA should be dismantled, just like Queensland Health. 
I am going to take further actions. I am also prepared to talk to TV or newspaper. If you are a journalist who is interested in my story, please contact me.

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## stevoh741

Tell them you are going to get an independent engineers evaluation of the wall and if this shows the wall to be defective then you will be taking your story to the media. I hear today tonight pay well for stories and god knows they could do with some new content.

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## goldie1

What was involved in the inspection? did they actually dig down behind the wall ?

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## charlie01

> What was involved in the inspection? did they actually dig down behind the wall ?

   It is rental property. I didn't go there. I thought the inspection would be independent. I don't think he actually dig down behind the wall. 
He rang me when he was there. he said to me he didn't find any defects. I was furious. I asked him if he had seen a dischage outlet of the drainage as I had mentioned in my complaint to the BSA that the 65mm Ag pipe drainage did not have an outlet and the water in the pipe went nowhere. He then said he would go back and have another look.(very dodgy) 
According to the engineer's design / drawing, the bottom wales should start from the ground and the drainage should use 100mm Ag pipe. This new retaining wall is not fully retained because it starts 7-10cm above the ground (which saves him timber sleepers). He also installed a 65mm in diameter Ag pipe behind the wall instead of 100mm Agpipe in order to rip me off. After the completion of the construction, I said to him that I contracted him to build a 100mm Ag pipe system but not a 65mm Agpipe drain. He went back and put several pieces of 100mm Ag pipe underside bottom wales (some are actually outside the wall as you can see in the photos). There is no proper connection between the sections. He said to me this was what I wanted. 
Eventually the BSA inspector issued a rectification notice to the builder, ordering him to install a discharge outlet for the 65mm Ag pipe drainage (He also mentioned in his Initial Inspection Report that the sectional 100mm Agpipe underside bottom wales is not functional). He then rang me and asked me to check the outlet and report back to him to see if I am happy or not. As I had work commit, I could not go. On the 1st December he made numerous calls to my mobile and home phone. As he couldn't speak to me, he verbally abused my wife. As I was aware that he was trying to contact me, I made many attempt to call him. However he wouldn't answer my calls (It's bizzar). Eventually he answered my call and we had heated exchanges. He verbally admitted that it is standard to install a 100mm (not 65mm) Agpipe drain but he also insisted that the 65mm Ag Pipe drainage was not defective. During the conversation I made it clear that I was not a building inspector and it was not my job to inspect the rectification work carried out by the builder. i also reminded him that the inspection should be independent and should stick to Australian Standards. A week later I received a three-sentence letter, telling me the case is closed. He didn't mention whether he did second (final) inspection or not.  
Again the construction of this timber wall does not meet Australian Standards (AS4678) and Building Code of Australia (BCA2010), however the BSA inspector concludes that it is not defective. 
The standard is: if a wall is above 90-100cm high then the size of the Ag pipe should be 100mm in diameter; if the height of a wall is less than 90-100cm, you can install a 65mm Ag pipe. Our wall is 140cm high, well above 100cm.

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## charlie01

> Tell them you are going to get an independent engineers evaluation of the wall and if this shows the wall to be defective then you will be taking your story to the media. I hear today tonight pay well for stories and god knows they could do with some new content.

  I want to see dodgy builders out of business and I want to see the BSA dismantled, just like what happened to notorious Queensland Health.

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## stevoh741

That does not sound professional at all on BSA behalf. I'd be getting the original engineer out there ASAP to inspect the wall.

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## charlie01

> That does not sound professional at all on BSA behalf. I'd be getting the original engineer out there ASAP to inspect the wall.

  He is very unprofessional.

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## charlie01

I just thought to publish the content of the letter from the BSA inspector: 
2 December 2011
Dear Mr xxx (my name):
(the property address here)
I refer to the telephone discussion of 1 December 2011, when you advised that the contractor has attended to the items listed in letter dated 11 November 2011.
No further action will be taken by BSA and your complaints will now be closed.
Yours faithfully 
(inspector's name)
Resolution Services Building Inspector 
Note: "The item listed in letter dated 11 November 2011" - As the 65mm Ag pipe drainage system did not have a discharge outlet, the builder was ordered to rectify the defect. 
This BSA Building Inspector is a big liar. As I mentioned above, I told the him on the phone on 01/12/2011 that it was not my job to inspect the discharge outlet and I was not a builder or building inspector. I also told him I hadn't gone to the property because I didn't have time to go there.  I had no clue as to whether the contractor had attended to the item or not.  
But any way, he closed my complaints without doing the second (final) inspection.

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## charlie01

Just some more photos to show how dodgy the contractor is:       
You can see the retaining wall is not fully retained (there is a 7cm - 10cm wide gap between the bottom sleepers and the ground. The Ag pipe is below or outside of the retaining wall. Also a section of the Ag pipe was drained to the post instead of away from the post as indicated in the engineering plan.

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## charlie01

My engineering drawing / design is very similar to the one published by Timber Queensland:  http://www.finlayson.com.au/download...ations0306.pdf 
Note: The bottom sleepers start from the ground level (but not above the ground level) and the Ag pipe is behind the wall but not under or outside the wall.

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## Poirot

If I am correct, you have not paid 50% so far. 
Is the contractor demanding that payment now that he is "cleared" by some BSA inspector? 
I suggest not to pay, and if the contractor wants to take you to take to the small claims tribunal, then you can argue that you only have to pay once he fulfils the contract. Then it is up to the magistrate to check whether the work he has done is according to the requirements under the contract you had (regardless of the BSA action).
Not sure about your situation, but normally if something is required to be engineer designed, then it needs to be inspected and either the engineer or a certifier needs to issue a form 17 stating that it complies, before the work is actually finished and approved.
Also, normally the ag pipe needs to be socked??

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## charlie01

Thanks, Poirot,
We have paid 3/4 of the total cost. (My neighbour and I initially paid 50% for deposit. Because of this, BSA fined him for demanding and receiving excessive deposit. My neighbour then paid him another 1/4. I refused to pay the rest of the 1/4 because he failed to stick to the contract. 
The Ag pipe is NOT socked. As you can see in the photos, the surface of the Ag pipe is covered in the dirt.

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## charlie01

Why Building Services Authority should be abolished:   
(1) Complaints about Building Services Authority: Not Good Enough - Australia's Customer Complaints Website :: View topic - Queensland Underbelly!!!  
(2) and also here: http://www.nameandshame.net.au/billb...c.php?f=4&t=38  
(3) MEMBER for Burnett Rob Messenger's concerns about the corruption in Building Services Authority MP slams CMC's warning | Sunshine Coast News | Local News in Sunshine Coast | Sunshine Coast Daily 
(4) The Courier-Mail: Queensland homeowners "let down" by Building Services Authority over shonky builders: http://www.couriermail.com.au/busine...-1226086201369

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## Bloss

You should take this to your local State MP . . .

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## charlie01

Thanks bloss, 
good idea. 
I just read through Building Regulation 2006 (supplement to Building Act 1975). I have found out that this dodgy landscaper also breached the Subdivision 2 of Part 6 of Building Regulation 2006 which describes “builder’s obligation to give notice for inspection at completion of each stage”, “prohibition on further building work until stage complies”, and “notifying BSA if notice for inspection not given”.  I am going to lodge a new complaint to BSA. According to the engineering design, staged inspections by an engineer is required, this includes the inspection of the drainage prior to backfilling. I reminded him on the first day of the construction that I wanted to arrange my engineer to inspect the footing and drainage. However he said he had already arranged his engineer to do the inspections because it had been included in the contract. Unfortunately he failed to arranged the drainage inspection. I spoke to his engineer who confirmed to me that he was not asked to inspect the drainage.   This dodgy landscaper knew he was wrong not to install a 100mm Ag pipe, this is why he didn't want the inspection.

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## snowman

Updates?

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