# Forum Home Renovation Home Theatres  We got a new toy today

## Moondog55

So why not overkill.
I was looking at plate amps and/or a decent stereo amp to add some deep Ooomph to go with the newish H/T amp.
The amp I have is only 200 watts per channel and that's not quite enough for subwoofer use.
I was asking a question on another forum about an amp I was looking at on eBay and somebody pointed me in a different direction.
Cecile and I got a decent S/H Yamaha for $450- posted to our door via FaceBay
I suppose 2 kilowatts might be enough
An older model but still good enough
Yamaha P7000s
Now of course I need to build some better speakers to handle that amount of power and I will as soon as the current ones blow up.

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## r3nov8or

I imagine Cecile is over the Moon about this  :Biggrin:

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## droog

The neighbours will be too, once it is all hooked up.  :Redface: )

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## Uncle Bob

Very nice Ted!

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## Bart1080

Wow, that's a serious friggin amp  :Smilie: 
and a whopping 12 kilo's.  You must have some serious speakers on the wish list for that to drive. https://www.crutchfield.com/S-xxKMcw...ha-P7000S.html 
Makes my old vintage 1988 Kenwood KM107 for the domestic market look like a kids play toy! https://www.audio-high-store.com/kenwood-km-107/

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## Bros

I suppose it is cheaper than getting hearing aids.

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## Moondog55

I've got a KM 107 in for repair at the moment, the repair might be as costly as buying this amp.
Same feller just repaired my Inkel.
Cost me $80- to replace a half dozen $0:07 parts that had died after 40 years, but I'd never have found the small dried out and dead circuit capacitors.
The Inkel is like two KM 107s sharing a chassis and weigh close to 20 kilos. 
I can't use the big drivers I want to use because of size restraints so thinking about a half dozen of these cheap sub drivers SD315A-88 12" DVC Subwoofer 4 Ohm - Dayton Audio
 Wire as 16Ohms and run three aside in parallel
Cheap as buying two of these RSS315HO-44 12" Reference HO DVC Subwoofer 4+4 Ohm - Dayton Audio

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## Moondog55

Bart I have 2 Kenwood L-07M running the tops in my stereo. https://www.audio-high-store.com/kenwood-l-07m/ 
Those are the best amps I've ever owned and sound sublime

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## Marc

> I suppose it is cheaper than getting hearing aids.

  Ha ha, I think hearing aids expenditure will come after.  :Rofl5:

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## Moondog55

Power and SPL are not necessarily related, we can deal with very short bursts of high SPL and in movies that is what gives impact, at bass frequencies the difference between 100 watts and 1000watts is only 3dB after all. Even at full power it won't be as loud as the crack of an SLR 200mm from your ears, which is where my hearing loss comes from.

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## John2b

The difference between 100W and 1000W is 10dB, nominally considered twice as loud; 100W +3db would be 200W.

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## Moondog55

You are correct John. I answered from memory and not my tables. But you do need 115dB for the LFE channels and that takes a lot of power, as most subwoofers are not all that efficient and you only get +3dB running stereo subs.
Our mains L/R/C do 105dB but they are accepting just over 100w to do so.

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## Bros

Shame on you a non approved Australian product.

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## Moondog55

> Shame on you a non approved Australian product.

  You'll have to explain that one. None of these were made here and a plug is a plug is a plug

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## Bros

> You'll have to explain that one. None of these were made here and a plug is a plug is a plug

  If it was Australian approved it would have at least an Australian approved plug top, however an Australian plug top doesn't mean it is approved.

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## Moondog55

All the 230/240 V 60Hz units are the same, I really don't mind not paying the Australia Tax.

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## r3nov8or

> Shame on you a non approved Australian product.

  We do this for, of all things, an electric hand held beater  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> If it was Australian approved it would have at least an Australian approved plug top,

   This is a model imported and distributed by Yamaha Australia, the only difference with a grey import is the plug.

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## Bros

> This is a model imported and distributed by Yamaha Australia, the only difference with a grey import is the plug.

   If that is the case and it is approved (which I doubt) it should have an Australian plug.

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## phild01

> .... I really don't mind not paying the Australia Tax.

  Cecile!

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## Moondog55

> If that is the case and it is approved (which I doubt) it should have an Australian plug.

  Seriously the only difference is a little sticker on the back.
Thousands of these here in Oz, maybe hundreds of thousands if you count back 20 years, if it makes you feel better I'll get the plug changed by my repair feller or my sparky rather than DIY it.

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## Bros

> Seriously the only difference is a little sticker on the back.
> Thousands of these here in Oz, maybe hundreds of thousands if you count back 20 years, if it makes you feel better I'll get the plug changed by my repair feller or my sparky rather than DIY it.

  I missed your original post in you got it SH via Facebay (whatever that is). I assumed it was sold through a retail outlet who would never sell non certificated equipment. 
I'm feeling OK whether you change the plug or not I was just making an observation.

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## John2b

> If that is the case and it is approved (which I doubt) it should have an Australian plug.

  Obviously the unit in question is a grey import, hence the wrong plug, however that does not mean the model is not approved for sale in Australia. The world is an, ahem, world market, and Yamaha is a manufacturer of premium professional audio products worldwide and as such would normally homologate products across all intended markets, of which Australia is a significant one. Of all of the companies that sell electrical goods in Australia one of the last of would suspect of dodgy compliance is Yamaha.

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## Moondog55

Facebay is what a lot of people call the Facebook market place. Next time I'll emphasize Second hand by bolding the S/H [ *S/H* ] and try and reduce the confusion. 
Technically it may be supposed to have a 15A plug but it must be grounded, unlike the little travel adaptor that came with the unit

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## Bros

> Of all of the companies that sell electrical goods in Australia one of the last of would suspect of dodgy compliance is Yamaha.

   Is that right, maybe it is not the genuine article.  https://usa.yamaha.com/products/cont...eit/index.html

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## Bros

> Facebay is what a lot of people call the Facebook market place. Next time I'll emphasize Second hand by bolding the S/H [ *S/H* ] and try and reduce the confusion.

   You don't have to do that just because I never read the post properly.
Never heard Marketplace called that before.

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## Bart1080

....still a pretty good buy at $450.

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## Moondog55

I'll ask my guy to check it out in person. Paid via PayPal so I can get a refund if needs be because it does look at second glance to have a toroidal PSU and not the switch-mode it's supposed to have.
Caveat Emptor and why I use PayPal

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## John2b

> Is that right, maybe it is not the genuine article.  https://usa.yamaha.com/products/cont...eit/index.html

  I suspect you are correct Bros, the front panel screws appear to be in the wrong place and the power LED is red, not green. Although aware of the crappy Chonda ripoffs of Honda motors everywhere, I had no idea such sophisticated fakes were being made in electronics. 
Moondog, who knows what the thing is really rated at. It probably isn't going to be stable driving a low impedance load. I suggest you try to return the unit to the seller for a refund and threaten to report them if they don't comply.

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## Bros

> I'll ask my guy to check it out in person. Paid via PayPal so I can get a refund if needs be because it does look at second glance to have a toroidal PSU and not the switch-mode it's supposed to have.
> Caveat Emptor and why I use PayPal

  Not much use beating yourself up as everyone who buys on line ends up knowingly or unknowingly buying fakes. I now have two fake Makita batteries and some time back I bought a small battery charger to charge the battery for a torch knowing it to probably be a fake..  
I use them with some caution in that I never leave them powered up overnight or unattended. If they need to be powered up overnight eg phone and Ipad charger I go and pay the money from a retailer with a store front. 
You will have a case if you have kept the images and it is not obvious that it is fake, the big clue is the plugtop. 
I suppose the seller realized it was not genuine and the easiest thing for him to do was get rid of it.

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## phild01

Some vigilant find there Bros and very sorry for you Moondog. With a toroidal it would be very heavy compared to switch mode, have you weighed the amp as well.
I am surprised like John that fake audio has reached such sophistication. I remember long back in the '70's a friend got stung by someone driving around with fake speakers and just asking anyone if they want a great deal.

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## Moondog55

With PayPal we may be able to get our money back.
I have contacted both Yamaha Australia and BorderForce
Seller hasn't responded but still selling what appears to be the same item, we'll see.
If we get a refund there is no way we'll allow the  person to keep selling knock-offs by returning the item, I'll ask the feller who repairs stuff to look at it. If safe and usable it may still work out, he only charges $80- to open up and test quickly for major problems

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## phild01

If you know it has a toroidal then you know it s a knock-off and just wait it out and see if you get a refund, why waste $80 to find out something you can already prove. It's not worth keeping as a knock-off as you have no idea of it's reliability or quality of performance and your $80 guy may not either. For me the price paid is too much for what it may end up being.  
Your pic isn't clear but does the label say 7600s and...
Why haven't you weighed it?

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## Bros

> I suspect you are correct Bros, the front panel screws appear to be in the wrong place and the power LED is red, not green. Although aware of the crappy Chonda ripoffs of Honda motors everywhere, I had no idea such sophisticated fakes were being made in electronics.

   If a product has a good reputation and is sold world wide the grubs in China see a market for their fakes.
Yamaha sound equipment, Makita Batteries, Computer software, Andersen plugs and I'm sure the list goes on.

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## Bros

> With PayPal we may be able to get our money back.

  I had an email from PayPal a while back and they were changing the way sellers get their money. I never read it as I thought when I next sell something I will check it out. In the past they held the money back from the seller to see there were any chargebacks before releasing it.

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## Moondog55

If we get a refund I may be able to keep the unit if BorderForce don't confiscate the unit.
That is when I'd get Rob to look at the unit, if safe and usable I'd use it, I'd just scratch off the Yamaha logo etc

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## droog

Assuming its from the add that is still up on the book of faces then the carton says that it is 20Kg, that would include packaging but I dont expect the packaging to be 8Kg.
Also has printed on the back panel "Made *****onesia" ???, assume Indonesia. 
Good to have PayPal to fall back on, but unsure how it will play out in this case. Would not be opening or testing at all, if its obvious from the outside start the Paypal claim straight away and if your Paypal is linked to a credit card ask your bank for that payment to be held as well.

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## Bros

> If we get a refund I may be able to keep the unit if BorderForce don't confiscate the unit.
> That is when I'd get Rob to look at the unit, if safe and usable I'd use it, I'd just scratch off the Yamaha logo etc

  Years ago I had a chargeback through PayPal that misrepresented an article by saying there was a cash back offer. When I went to get this offer I found it had expired a week before I bought.
 I lodged a dispute and got my money back but the seller never wanted the article back. The ball for return is in their court.

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## Moondog55

We started the PayPal claim as soon as the seller failed to respond to our request for a total and immediate refund.
The price isn't too cheap for the unit if genuine and used tho as all the new amps seem to come with DSP included and they have become much lighter very quickly, and with band gear lighter is almost always better and the turn-over is high.
I'll use the old Dinosaur Inkel while we wait; even if it is massively under-powered for the need, we'll just keep the volume to a more moderate level, the Inkel can't be used on 4R loads tho so the drivers will get wired in series for a 16R load

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## Bros

> We started the PayPal claim as soon as the seller failed to respond to our request for a total and immediate refund.

   To be fair on the seller maybe he may have never known it was a fake as I assume it is a private seller but if like I said before he realized it was a fake and tried to unload it, the big sellers on ebay know as they import the junk. 
I wouldn't be game to unload something with a plugtop like that on the Australian market

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## Cecile

Oh, it's fake all right.  He changed is FB name as soon as Ted questioned him and argued later on that the item was working and he does not do refunds.  Plus, there are others still for sale, as well as a variety of other electronic items.  The item weighs 20kg (printed on the box) and the real deal is 12kg according to the Yamaha website.  Image below from Yamaha website, ours is the one on the right.

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## Bros

I withdrawn my comment as he did know it was fake.

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## phild01

Is there a copy of the ad you cn put up, wondering if the model number in the first photo being 7600, not 7000!

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## John2b

Definitely P7000S and it's still on Farcebook marketplace here: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...6-7c48c7e88dca

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## r3nov8or

> Definitely P7000S and it's still on Farcebook marketplace here: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...6-7c48c7e88dca

  That one is advertised as New

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## r3nov8or

I've only disputed PayPal purchases (and received refunds) for sellers that do not deliver. The sellers basically disappeared/were non-responsive. 
Interested to see how it goes for delivered goods 
Best of luck

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## phild01

Does the Zuckerplace have a report seller or is it a 'no-holds barred' site!

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## droog

> Does the Zuckerplace have a report seller or is it a 'no-holds barred' site!

  https://www.facebook.com/help/962020680598166 
Relevant to this discussion.

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## Moondog55

We are waiting on both the Federal police and Border Force to get back to us but we will be reporting the seller

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## Bros

> Definitely P7000S and it's still on Farcebook marketplace here: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...6-7c48c7e88dca

   How much would you pay for the genuine article?

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## Jonno80

Moondog, would you be able to open the unit and take some detailed photos? 
I've read this thread a few times, but things just aren't adding up. Why would anybody take a switchmode design and "counterfeit" that into a class AB design with a toroidal transformer? It would be more expensive going with the class AB design. Even if they took a common design, who would then use an expensive toroidal transformer and 12x TO247 output transistors? Cmon the counterfeit even has nice cable management? Maybe if it had a cheap EI tranformer and some tiny output transistors it would make more sense. 
I would expect a poorly reverse engineered copy of the original with severely cut down components and quality,  cheaper PCB quality etc.

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## Cecile

> That one is advertised as New

  That's the same guy.

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## John2b

> How much would you pay for the genuine article?

  This is a discontinued model and I think the street price was under $1,000, although the RRP might have been somewhat higher. By street price, I mean the negotiable price you would expect to pay from a genuine dealer, which in the music industry is usually quite a bit lower than the ticket price. After 18 months of lockdowns and restrictions on public gatherings affecting the music industry across Australia professional audio equipment is flooding secondhand markets at fire-sale prices, so a low price is not necessarily an indication of dodgy deal.

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## Moondog55

It's sad but true. A lot of professional musicians and sound people are having to sell off gear to pay the rent, that's one of the reasons I wasn't suspicious of the low price.
At this stage I don't want to open up the unit, we are waiting on PayPal to give us an answer to our request for a reversal of the payment and ditto Border Force/ Federal Police.
I suspect that there is a huge over supply of toroids sitting in warehouses all over the world at the moment due to the switch to switchmode PSUs and the same goes for amplifiers without inbuilt DSP.

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## Bros

I think this explains it as they reimburse for counterfeit.  https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...yer-protection

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## phild01

> ... but things just aren't adding up. Why would anybody take a switchmode design and "counterfeit" that into a class AB design with a toroidal transformer?

  Bulk similar finished amps are very cheap on sites like Alibaba. A manufacturer could adapt for less money than this. Cs Pv Series 3000-10000watt Power Amplifier - Buy Sound Power Amplifier,Power Transistor Series Amplifier Transistor D667,Professional Power Amplifier Product on Alibaba.com

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## droog

> I think this explains it as they reimburse for counterfeit.  https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...yer-protection

  
The grey area will be how was it advertised, under Paypal you can claim if the item is "Significantly Not as Described" in this case the following applies "The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic (i.e. counterfeit)". https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...x=en_AU#buying 
The way I read it is that they will reimburse if an item was advertised as authentic but what is delivered is not an authentic item.

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## Bros

> The grey area will be how was it advertised, under Paypal you can claim if the item is "Significantly Not as Described" in this case the following applies "The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic (i.e. counterfeit)". https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mp...x=en_AU#buying 
> The way I read it is that they will reimburse if an item was advertised as authentic but what is delivered is not an authentic item.

  The ad advertised it as Yamaha not Yamaha knockoff. Some years ago I bought some Andersen plugs thinking they were the real Andersen plugs but they were knockoff's. I used them for what I wanted but I see now the knockoff's are advertised as "Andersen style" so there is no way you can not know they are not Andersen plugs. 
 I see the makita batteries on ebay don't have the Makita logo but they say 6Ah *For* Makita a suttle word change but would avoid anyone coming back to them as not being genuine. 
The Amplifier is listed as Yamaha and the buyer should expect that is is the genuine article.

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## droog

> The ad advertised it as Yamaha not Yamaha knockoff. Some years ago I bought some Andersen plugs thinking they were the real Andersen plugs but they were knockoff's. I used them for what I wanted but I see now the knockoff's are advertised as "Andersen style" so there is no way you can not know they are not Andersen plugs. 
>  I see the makita batteries on ebay don't have the Makita logo but they say 6Ah *For* Makita a suttle word change but would avoid anyone coming back to them as not being genuine. 
> The Amplifier is listed as Yamaha and the buyer should expect that is is the genuine article.

  100% agree, and would be putting that same statement regarding the brand name to Paypal.
I hope for Moondog that Paypal are straight up for the same agreement in this case.

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## Moondog55

The amp in the link might be a really good amplifier, but not of interest to any band who tours due to the weight. As a Studio amp possibly depending on distortion figures. 
Airfreight of something weighing 20 kilos would add substantially to the individual cost, especially considering VAT is calculated on the total landed cost

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## Marc

Hope Paypal comes good. They usually are. 
Currently awaiting a decision about a chef knife I bought, "Handcrafted in Japan, by master katana makers"  
They sent me tracking information after one month, and guess what ... comes from bloody china.

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## r3nov8or

> Hope Paypal comes good. They usually are. 
> Currently awaiting a decision about a chef knife I bought, "Handcrafted in Japan, by master katana makers"  
> They sent me tracking information after one month, and guess what ... comes from bloody china.

  They probably have a small factory in China which they registered as "Japan, by master katana makers". That'll do it  :Frown:

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## Uncle Bob

Gee sorry to read this Ted.
I must say I was surprised to see the original amp has a switch mode PSU. It must take some real good filtering to get rid of all the noise from the choppers. Mind you, it's been awhile since I did cracked open a amp and I can't remember ever opening a 2Kw jobbie.

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## Moondog55

Switch mode PSUs have come a long way, a bit like chip amps in that regard.
Still waiting on a response from PayPal

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## Bros

They take their time as long as you get an automatic response to your complaint. 
Have you heard anything from Yamaha?

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## r3nov8or

Also read carefully, ensure that PayPal isn't actually waiting for you to do some action.

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## Cecile

> Also read carefully, ensure that PayPal isn't actually waiting for you to do some action.

  OK so PayPal replied and decided we must send the item back to get a refund.  They also have a free return available so I won't have to pay another $31.  Paypal basically said their returns department reviewed my information and that's their final decision regardless of the counterfeit nature of the item.  It felt as though they were inferring I wanted to get a refund AND keep the item.  I would have gladly given it to a government agency for destruction. 
That said, I am not happy that a counterfeit item has to go back to a seller who will simply turn it around and sell it again.  Ted didn't have a return call from Yamaha and when I tried to ring them I got misdirected to the wrong department who could not assist so I also am waiting on a call. 
Pain in the posterior.

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## droog

> OK so PayPal replied and decided we must send the item back to get a refund.  They also have a free return available so I won't have to pay another $31.  Paypal basically said their returns department reviewed my information and that's their final decision regardless of the counterfeit nature of the item.  It felt as though they were inferring I wanted to get a refund AND keep the item.  I would have gladly given it to a government agency for destruction. 
> That said, I am not happy that a counterfeit item has to go back to a seller who will simply turn it around and sell it again.  Ted didn't have a return call from Yamaha and when I tried to ring them I got misdirected to the wrong department who could not assist so I also am waiting on a call. 
> Pain in the posterior.

  
Did you also report the seller for promoting counterfeit goods?

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## Bros

> OK so PayPal replied and decided we must send the item back to get a refund.

   All well and good but how do you get a refund if he won't answer posts? 
Is the Paypal free return guarantee by Paypal he has got it and refunded you the money which Paypal is hanging on to? 
And do you know his return address as Moondog said he changed his name?

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## Cecile

> All well and good but how do you get a refund if he won't answer posts? 
> Is the Paypal free return guarantee by Paypal he has got it and refunded you the money which Paypal is hanging on to? 
> And do you know his return address as Moondog said he changed his name?

  Paypal contacted him today after I escalated it to an actual claim and they replied right away.  They gave us the return address, which is the same one Sendle picked up from.  Seller will be required to reimburse for the shipping AFTER I send it back and send proof of return. 
We are ethically and morally not happy returning a counterfeit item that he will on-sell yet again.  Unfortunately, many of the government agencies aren't chasing these people. We'll report him wherever we can, and to Facebook but not until after we get our refund.  We told Yamaha so they can do what they need to do.

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## Moondog55

So if we return we'll be once again looking for an stereo amp with about 800 watts available and preferably with on-board DSP

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## John2b

> We are ethically and morally not happy returning a counterfeit item that he will on-sell yet again.

   Your reservations about the vendor and the product noted, ethically and morally you should not expect entitlement to a refund if you do not return the item to the vendor. And you most certainly should not consider keeping the item if you receive a refund via PayPal prior to a return - it is the relevant authority's responsibility to prosecute the law, not anyone else's.

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## Moondog55

Why do you seem to be taking sides with the criminal John?
To me it seems more like natural justice to get our money back and get to keep the goods.
As for the "Relevant Authorities" they seem to think it's not worth their time and effort to chase little thieves.

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## Bros

> We are ethically and morally not happy returning a counterfeit item that he will on-sell yet again.  Unfortunately, many of the government agencies aren't chasing these people.

  Your ethics are discharged when you reported it to the likes of Yamaha and they have seen fit not to follow it up so be it. 
Return it to the sender and put it behind you.

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## Bros

> So if we return we'll be once again looking for an stereo amp with about 800 watts available and preferably with on-board DSP

  I don't know how you can protect yourself buying on line from a private seller and not get a counterfeit. This one was reasonably easy to spot the next one might not. 
Maybe do what marc does and visit cash converters as it John2b is correct there should be a lot of that gear there from starving artists. 
The likes of Cash Converters would not get caught with dodgy gear and if they do they wouldn't be game to on sell it.

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## Moondog55

Love to do that. We are in Lockdown and can't travel to where all the bargains seem to be, Cash Converters in and around Melbourne City where  all the starving musos live.
Supply difficulties with a lot of new good gear at the moment it seems.

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## Uncle Bob

We have the Green shed (recycling) here and you sometimes see some good gear, especially speakers.

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## Moondog55

Probably because it isn't cost effective to repair. I just got a quick estimate for refoam the surrounds on a pair of cheap 15" woofers, mates rates was $90- a speaker, retail rate through Total Recoil was $210- each.
I can buy new drivers for around $150- each, and probably better spec that the old ones. Just the foam surrounds are now $50- a pair.

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## Bart1080

> As for the "Relevant Authorities" they seem to think it's not worth their time and effort to chase little thieves.

  ...and surprisingly quite a few of them.  Checked out your FB link to the amp and happened to spot a FB advertisement located in Melbourne selling end of season $600 to $1000 TREK bikes for a clearance rate of $60.  The buyer had to go to an internet site to purchase.  Was really professional looking...but obviously a scam.  
Must be many that part with their money and get burned.....and all too small for the authorities to give a damn.   Until now, hadn't given it a thought there would be fake HiFi gear.  
Was a Chinese FB account name the other day, reported and now  its many different accounts. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...a-5e7783fe1071

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## Bros

> ...and surprisingly quite a few of them.  Checked out your FB link to the amp and happened to spot a FB advertisement located in Melbourne selling end of season $600 to $1000 TREK bikes for a clearance rate of $60.  The buyer had to go to an internet site to purchase.  Was really professional looking...but obviously a scam.

   Id bet the bikes illustrated are genuine but I notice the payment is by CC so it will be much harder to get your money back. They will probably take hundreds of orders then disappear with the case and start selling outboard motors or some such other deals that are dirt cheap.

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## Marc

For what it is worth, in my case with the fake Japanese chef knife, after several email stating it was on it's way and reading other people's experience, I changed my claim with PayPal from item not received to counterfeit product, based on their ads stating hand made in Japan, and the copy of the tracking timeline with a string of cities in China on the way here ... allegedly. I also told PayPal that I did not want to pay for return if it ever got here.
Refunded only a few days later.

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## Cecile

So we sent it back.  PayPal will release the funds when the guy gets it.  I can only hope he doesn't do the dirty and claim he never got it, which is not unheard of.  Hopefully Sendle takes a photo of the delivered box.  I paid additional for insurance this time, so if it goes missing I'm covered either way.

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## John2b

> So we sent it back.

   :2thumbsup:    

> I am not responsible for anything that Moondog says!

  That's not what Ted said...  :Roflmao:

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## Moondog55

As soon as we get our refund I'm reporting him to the Facebook market place for selling counterfeit products. Cecile may have other options. I think I dislike thieves more than I dislike axe murderers.

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## Marc

Why only axe murderers?  :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> Cecile may have other options.

  What would those be?

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## Moondog55

Nothing secret, the ATO has a "Dob-In" web site, I'm willing to wager he is not reporting any of this income.

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## Marc

Moon ... if you get your money back, consider yourself even. 
Revenge does not pay, and many times backfires ...

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## Bros

> So we sent it back.  PayPal will release the funds when the guy gets it.

  I don't think you had much choice if you wanted a genuine article. 
Facebook must be a bit different to Ebay as when I got my money back Paypal investigated it and reversed the transaction then it was up to the seller what he wanted to do.

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## Moondog55

Revenge is sweet and best served cold

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## Bros

> Moon ... if you get your money back, consider yourself even. 
> Revenge does not pay, and many times backfires ...

   :What he said:

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## Moondog55

Well Cardinal Pell got away with it didn't he

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## Marc

I had payment for the "Japanese" chef knife refunded yet the knife turned up 2 days after.
So I called PayPal to say that I did not want to keep the knife and that a postage paid satchel from the seller would allow me to return it at no cost to me.
What followed was strange. 
She first told me the refund had been reversed, so I didn't have a refund despite what my account shows.  
She then said that PayPal is willing to pay half the cost and that I could keep the knife. 
I was taken by surprise by this, and told her that this was a counterfeit product and that paypal wasn't at fault. Besides the knife is a crude thick blade made of cheap steel that belongs in a backpack to hack at tree branches and not in a kitchen. 
She decided to double check the status of the refund, and returned saying they reversed the reversed payment and that I could keep the knife. (?) 
Sometimes corporate actions and motivations are hard to separate from their staff actions and motivations. Not complaining. After a bit of sharpening, this will end in the shed, or may be the boat. May be good to cut off rope that tangles in the propeller.  :Smilie:  
If you see this, too good to be true ... it is. Stay clear. I paid $80. I see they are selling for $40. It's Ok if you pay $20  https://huusk.com/huusk/product-2?l=...RoC9RIQAvD_BwE

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## Cecile

> I don't think you had much choice if you wanted a genuine article. 
> Facebook must be a bit different to Ebay as when I got my money back Paypal investigated it and reversed the transaction then it was up to the seller what he wanted to do.

  
The person I spoke with at PayPal would not budge.  It was almost as  though she inferred we wanted a refund AND to keep the item.  The  information I discovered about the seller shows he's not that smart  either.  He has links to his personal and work pages from the ad.  His  address pic on Google maps shows a huge sign on his front fence  announcing a business he operates, plus he's a property developer from  what I can tell - big red flag.  Easy enough to find out he not only has  an ABN but is registered for GST.  Knowing what I know about "the system" it's not hard to figure out he's most likely not reporting income from these sales, plus he didn't charge us GST when he's legally obliged to do it. 
Anyway we've done what we can to report him.

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## John2b

> I think I dislike thieves more than I dislike axe murderers.

   I can't imagine what you think of axe murderers who steal their murder weapons...

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## UseByDate

> I can't imagine what you think of axe murderers who steal their murder weapons...

  Especially if the murder weapon was also counterfeit. :Smilie:

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## r3nov8or

> Especially if the murder weapon was also counterfeit.

  And the weapon counterfeiter stole the one he copied off!  :Smilie:

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## Moondog55

Replacement new toy arrives tomorrow or Wednesday. No axe murderers were harmed during the purchase of this  second hand Peavey power amp.
Not as powerful as I think we need but more than we already have.
Peavey PVi 2000 315 watts per channel in stereo and a bit more into a low impedance speaker load

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## Bros

> Replacement new toy arrives tomorrow or Wednesday.

  Same seller?

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## Moondog55

No, this one is coming from Melbourne but also looking at a processor in Q'ld

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