# Forum Home Renovation General Odds & Sods  Basic home wiring

## bishfactor

hi guys, i'm looking to install a basic double plug socket under my weatherboard house for use in my cellar/"workshop".  there are some lengths of white, triple-cable electric cable serving the sockets in the rooms above.  they run along the joists and bearers for the floors above, then pop up through the boards into the skirting.  how would i tap into these cables to install the double plug socket, without altering the whole house circuit?  my chippy mate said it's easy and he has done several in his home but i'm really after a pictoral type plan for this task.  i have bought a socket but am yet to buy the cables...any thoughts welcome. :Smilie:

----------


## Vernonv

Hi bishfactor, 
Unless you know what you are doing, it's probably safer to get a sparky in. 
It would be safer for yourself and current and future occupants of the house.

----------


## Gra

call a sparky electricity hurts

----------


## stolar

It is easy as anything if you have done it before. On the other hand if you have not doen it before maybe you should do some research first.
There are wiring regulations that you shoudl be aware of before you start any electrical work.  
I'm all for DIY if, and only if, you are 100% sure that you know what you are doing.
I did my wiring but I am electrical engineer so I understand electricity. Because I understand the importance of doing it right, I bought and read through the Australi/NZ wiring regulations.  Only then did I undertake the design of my house wiring layout. In the end I did get sparky to do some final work, in particular the switch board. 
So my advice is, unless you are prepared to lear how to do it right first, do not attempt to "do it yourself". For a single socket it may be cheaper and easier to get someone else to do it.

----------


## bennylaird

If you have to ask how to do it then you shouldn't be doing it. Too dangerous and you leave yourself open to litigation. ie if you have a fire they will void your insurance if they can find a loop hole like a DIY powerpoint.

----------


## silentC

Not to mention that it is illegal to do your own wiring. The fine is something like $5,000 if you get caught.

----------


## Pulse

Not a lot of positive advice here eh... 
Lets say someone wanted to do add an extra powerpoint, usually they would either run it from an existing powerpoint (so that three twin and earth cables terminate there) or they would add a junction box with screw terminals. The connector with two screws is for the earth wire as per regs. So in the junction box three reds are joined, three blacks are joined and three earths are joined. The sheath (white outer insulation) should be intact wherever the cable is visible. That pretty mush explains how someone would do it. Note that 2.5mm2 cable is the minimum for power points. 
But my advice is get a sparky. The actually wiring is simple but the problem is that you need to know how many power points can be supplied by one circuit, what mechanical protection the cable needs and  protection from weather etc. You should also check the earthing and polarity of the house wiring. 
The pity about Australia is the fear of electricity perpetuated by everyone. There is a complete lack of information for the DIY market. Power points are available in Kmart, Big W and every hardware store. My bet is most aren't being installed properly. The solution is either:
1. restrict sale
2. give people information to do it safely themselves
No one is happy paying someone $150 to screw in a powerpoint they know costs $10.  
Anyway good luck with your moral dilemma. 
Cheers
Pulse

----------


## silentC

> The pity about Australia is the fear of electricity perpetuated by everyone.

  It's not a matter of fear. Whether you like it or not, legislation in Australia prohibits an unlicensed person from completing electrical work. I think it's a bloody brilliant idea to make it illegal for any idiot to do their own wiring, but that's beside the point. 
For the same reason, I don't think it's a brilliant idea for people who DO know what they are doing to give advice on this forum because a) you don't know anything about the person you are giving the advice to - how do you know they're not a 15 year old kid? - and b) you don't know how many people are going to read it and try to apply it to their own situation. 
It's not like you are down the pub telling your mate how to do it. How would you feel if someone reads your advice, gives it a go, and electrocutes themself? 
I know enough about wiring to wire up a socket or a light or a plug but there's no way I'm going to tell anyone how to do it if they don't already know.

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

On ya Silent, well said, people have to be careful when giving advise that may lead to harmful accidents.
Electrical
Chemical
Structural
Just because you know what your doing doesn't mean that you should encouraging others to do the same.

----------


## bishfactor

jeez guys!  the floodgates opened up there.  whilst neither a "bloody idiot", nor a 15 year old kid,  i totally appreciate where you are all coming from with regard to safety concerns, and the risk of the "have-a-go-hero" enthusiast tackling electircal issues.  i shall call my friendly sparky and take it from there.  adios.

----------


## silentC

Sorry bishfactor, not suggesting that you _are_ an idiot or a 15 year old but you _could_ be  :Wink:  
I reckon the best advice anyone on here can give when it comes to doing something that's illegal is "don't do it". 
Pulse does have a point, in that a lot of people on not being able to get the right advice will go ahead and do it anyway and possibly stuff it up or worse. Maybe they _should_ restrict sale of points and light switches etc in Bunnings. It's like leaving the key to the drinks cupboard on the table and telling the kids not to drink. Still, we have to work with what we have...

----------


## pharmaboy2

Pulse, agree. 
Good thing, the only advice you provided was to seek out a sparky, plus provide a a short hypothectical situation. 
Keep in mind in this once great nation and bastion of freedom, its also illegal to change a tap, connect storm water to drain pipes, screw down a sheet of colorbond and do 41kmh outside a school an hour and a half before the school opens on a day when its closed!!!   But fortunately, we are all allowed to purchase and use apower saw above our head, a 3 phase welder without experience, P platers buy cars capable of 280kmh, and DIY shows encourage the use of a chainsaw for carpentry..... 
ah, its a consistant world we live in........

----------


## Eddie Jones

Maybe, as a compromise, consult a sparkie, buy the cable he recomends then run it yourself. Nothing illegal in that, PROVIDING a licensed sparkie approves your wiring and connects both ends. Save you some folding stuff AND legal. 
Eddie

----------


## silentC

> ah, its a consistant world we live in

  Agree, it's an inconsistent world we live in but that doesn't change the facts. Hypothetically, any mug can run wires and it doesn't take too much nous to work out how many powerpoints your wiring can handle. Hypothetically, half of the members of this forum, if not more than half, have done or will in the future do their own wiring. That doesn't mean that you should encourage people you've never met to do it. 
If you feel that strongly about how it's messing up our once great nation that people can no longer lawfully install as many powerpoints and lights on a circuit as they think they need without really knowing what they are doing, why don't you lobby the government to change the legislation? And while you're at it, get them to put flashing lights on the 40km school zone signs so we know when we need to slow down.

----------


## MurrayD99

Hmmmmm.  Probably not.  Aiding & abetting.  Taken in for questioning....

----------


## pharmaboy2

> . Hypothetically, half of the members of this forum, if not more than half, have done or will in the future do their own wiring. .

  mmmm, that was sort of the point, its not disimilar to the "dont speed then" response when someone gets a ticket, when reasonably obviously essentially every person speeds at one time or another.  As you say, most have done some electrical work, but we got taught by somebody, yet wont show anyone new - I think that almost stands the test of hypocrisy.  :Wink:  
Just for interest sake, and certainly not for starting an arguemnt (I think we all know where they go from here ;D  ), the Uk with its very lax wiring laws (ie DIY anything you bloody like almost!) manages to have less than half our  fatal electrocution rate - bit strange really....... 
have a nice day   :Wink:

----------


## bennylaird

Sometimes any mug can't run wires and their work can be hidden unless the sparkie does a good job of checking. 
Just joining two wires can be a recipe for disaster. I've seen all types over the years. Wire stripped with a pair of pliers that should have been retired with Noah after he finished his little boat. 
Half the strands missing, twisted with oily fingers and twisted back again till they are on their last legs, then hidden away in a terminal box to provide a lovely fire igniter. It's this sort of thing that could catch you out. Training should stop it happening and I see work done by DIYers which is much better than the average sparkie at times. 
Common sense and I wouldn't advertise the fact on a forum open to everyone to browse if I was going to have a go. 
Would like to see the statistics on fires caused by faulty wiring each year.

----------


## silentC

> but we got taught by somebody, yet wont show anyone new - I think that almost stands the test of hypocrisy.

  I learned to wire a plug in high school when it was common knowledge - printed on the back of the packet.  
I can see the point in speed zones, even if I sometimes break them. I can also see the point in legislating against people doing their own wiring, even though ... (read between the lines). 
It's not a question of whether you should do it, or whether you should tell a mate how to do it. It's a question of whether advice should be given here on how to do something that is potentially dangerous and is illegal in this country at the moment (we're not in the UK). 
I'd also be interested to know what would happen to the advice giver if someone, maybe not even the original poster, followed the advice in the thread. Especially if that person was a licensed sparky. There's a hypothetical for you. 15 year old reads how to wire powerpoint on the Internet, electrocutes himself in the process of trying it out. Always thought electricity was dangerous but read 'any mug can do it'  :Wink:    

> the Uk with its very lax wiring laws manages to have less than half our fatal electrocution rate

  Have you got a link to some stats on that, or is it "common knowledge"?  :Wink:

----------


## pharmaboy2

Silent, I havent tackled the issue of whether people should or shouldnt provide advice - people have the right to judge their own actions in my book.  http://www.erac.gov.au/EracElectrocu...ta20002001.htm  http://www.publications.parliament.u...t/50627w30.htm 
to save you the maths, Aus has  a rate of 1.8/million deaths by electrocution, and the UK has 0.5/million pop, so I was wrong, ours isnt double is 3 times worse than the UK.  I just happen to know this because of an arguement with an ETU member who claimed all restrictions were delivering safety for the public not protection for the ETU members.  It would seem that our safety record leaves something to be desired.

----------


## silentC

> people have the right to judge their own actions in my book

  Yes they do. I don't usually make a point of telling people they shouldn't give advice about this or that, I went down this line because you and Pulse seem to be chastising us for not sharing  :Smilie:  
Regarding the stats, I haven't got time now but before that can be meaningful to this discussion, you need to strip out the number that tells us how many people were electrocuted because of faulty wiring installed by someone not licensed to do it. Not even sure you can get that from your link. 
I also note that fatalities have dropped since 1996/97.

----------


## Malibu

> Power points are available in Kmart, Big W and every hardware store. My bet is most aren't being installed properly. The solution is either:
> 1. restrict sale
> 2. give people information to do it safely themselves

  A good call!
In Victoria, we're bound by our licence and the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector to supply certificates of electrical safety.
This legal document is intended to stop the dodgy electricians from doing sub-standard work, and to stop the home wiring DIY'ers from doing thier own wiring. While I agree, the OCEI is doing a great job in preventing all of the above, it's still got a long way to go before it's all done 'right'. 
First up: restrict sale.
Hoo-rah! Stop the hardwares and etc from selling electrical fittings to everyone that can't produce an A-grade ticket. I can't buy explosives because I don't have a powder-monkey ticket, nor can I buy certain chemicals without a pest exterminators licence. Why? Because that stuff will kill people, just as electricity does too. 
Second: Information for doing it safely.
There's a course that can be done for the correct use, installation and upkeep of electrical systems. It's called an apprenticeship and takes 4 years to complete. 
People get a bit narky with me when I won't tell them how to hook up their power points, or change a light fitting. I can't even go around and do it for them, because my licence doesn't allow it. It's not a perfect system but at least the system is there to try and save lives.
I'll put away my soap-box now  :Smilie:

----------


## fencepost

As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union. Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either. I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now :Smilie:

----------


## thatirwinfella

> As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union. Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either. I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now

  hmm... let me shoot some holes in this. 
1-there is an exam like everything else. it has a 30% pass rate on the first go
2- there is a practical exam. infact, there are three exams. they are seperate theory, prac and safety exams.
3-the apprenticeship has nothing to do with plcs, it's a generic apprenticeship that bores the industrials and confuses the domestics. They need to seperate the two so that it can be more specific. so unless they are lucky enough to have been taught how plcs operate than they have to pick it up as they go. perhaps your company should consider properly training their employees on what they are supposed to  or expected to know. 
4-apprenticeships are traditionally 4 yrs. with the safety aspects and regulations that need to be understand it is ludicrous to think that a high quality of workmanship and knowledge of their field can be taught in anything less. No one seems to question why chefs need 4 year apprenticeships or brickies or hairdressers. but sparkies... well, electricity can't be hard. i mean, working with something that you can't see but could very easily kill you couldn't surely be... dangerous. but it takes a long time to learn how to cut hair and make soup? okay.  
pharmaboy, the UK is a very different situation to australia. In a very short time you can get from one place to another, hence a greater availability of sparkies in 'remote' areas. 
Many of the australian deaths are on farms where sparkies are frequently hard to come by. travelling time greatly increases the cost of the job and many wouldn't be willing to pay.

----------


## Pulse

what have a fueled here.....! 
I guess my view on society is all about personal responsibility. To many people think they are "entitled" to something. I think if you want something, work for it, if you do something stupid its your fault, not mine. 
If a guy asks for advice I give it. He knows electricity kills, I know, everybody knows. Everyone needs to know their abilities. I've done some stupid things around the house in the past. If I had this forum then I wouldn't have made these mistakes. 
I'll relate a story about my 15 yo cousin in South Africa. When I was there a few years ago he had a 240V water feature outside hooked up using speaker cable running into the house, under the mesh security door, up the wall and under the light switch cover plate!!!! 
I wish he *did* read the forum!! 
Cheers
Pulse

----------


## Jack E

> I did my wiring but I am electrical engineer so I understand electricity.

  Well there you go, all this time thinking electrical engineers had no idea and finally, one turns up who "understands electricity" :Biggrin:   
Mate, please move up here, I will give you half my pay packet to work on the project I am on :Smilie:   
I am sick of redesigning things and then having to explain to the engineers why their design wouldn't work and the new one will. 
Cheers, Jack.

----------


## Jack E

> As a process engineer with a degree in physics as well in a large factory spending a lot of time troubleshooting both high voltage and plc based equipment I find it ludicrous that I can't be trusted to wire in a socket!!!!!! The requirement for a 4 year apprenticeship is just jobs for the boys and protectionism for the union.

  The apprenticeship is not jobs for the boys, it is experience based learning with the emphasis on practical learning. I do agree it has it's faults, namely that it is largely focused on domestic wiring which is a simple and minor part of the trade.
I won't waste valuable forum space debating the unions.
It is the requirement for a 4 year degree which I find frustrating. At the end of said degree an engineer is generally a whole lot less worthwhile than a fourth year apprentice as he has no practical experience. 
He then spends his time designing overly complicated systems which more often than not, in a practical sense, need a fair bit of fine tuning.
On top of that, quite often the systems employed are amongst the most difficult and inefficient to install. (physically, not electrically)
I think you should have a trade background before being allowed to undertake an engineering degree.
Many qualified electricians would only need a year or two of training on top of their apprenticeship to be as good as if not better than 90% of book taught engineers I have encountered.  

> Make it an exam like everything else. Pass and you can get the license. Set the bar high. No problem there. Make it a practical exam. No problem there either.

  I agree as far as domestic wiring is concerned.  

> I am thoroughly sick of showing electricians how to do their job because they have yet again not read the instructions or just haven't a clue about anything other than domestic wiring. Electricity is not a mysterious force. It follows laws like everything else. Every time one of the shift sparkies comes up to ask me how to connect something in I bash my head off the desk!!!!!! Off my soap box now

  Your exact problem there is that you are employing sparkies with only domestic experience. It as a catch 22 situation, these guys need practical experience to learn.
Perhaps you should embrace that and teach them.
In Australia at the moment electricans make alot more money in industrial construction than they will in mining/industrial maintenance. That is why most good sparkies are bolting up tray und pulling cables rather than making less money in maintenance roles.
I recently left a mine along with most of the other experienced industrial maintenance sparkies to make some money in construction for a while. 
Cheers, Jack

----------


## Guy

Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world to be told by some beauracrat that i need to go back to school for 4 years and serve an apprectiship before i can call myself a sparky legally here it is utter crap. In Schools in the UK they teach the kids how to wire powerpoint and plugs.
I went in several years ago to the OOCEI and had this conversation with some guy who commented that all this licencing stuff was brought in in the early 50's when the unions lobbied state govs as they were worried that the new migrants would take there jobs.
i am of the opinion that legislation should be change to allow the homeowner be able to change fixed fitting ie powerpoints, light switches but not allow them to run new feeds or extend existing feeds unless they can demonstrate that they have an thorough understanding of AS3000.
I dont know how many of you have visited new houses where wiring has been roughed in, but i would estimate that 70% of these are in breech of regulations as you see cables run in at all different angles. 
New houses should be supplied with complete wiring drawings showing location of all cabling and sizes used, this would allow the homeowner, electricain be able to attatch stuff to walls without worrying if the nail he is knocking in is going to hit a hidden live cable. It would also allow the electrician to know how many power points are on a particular circuit if the homeowner is not confident in doing the work. 
Hardware store should not be allowed to sell cable for fixed purposes, and stores like Bunnies should not allow there staff to give info on what type of cable and how to terminate, on too many occasions ive been in there and seen some kid 18-20yo telling and drawing for customer what he has to do. ( but dont they say on TV we have qualified tradespeople)

----------


## Malibu

> i am of the opinion that legislation should be change to allow the homeowner be able to change fixed fitting ie powerpoints, light switches but not allow them to run new feeds or extend existing feeds unless they can demonstrate that they have an thorough understanding of AS3000.

  The legislation was changed a few years ago (at least it was in Victoria, I don't know about the rest of Aus) and a new licence was introduced called "Disconnect/Reconnect". The idea behind it is to allow "like for like" replacement of anything electrical and allows any non-electrician to be able to do repairs, such as GPO (power point) replacement, etc, but not do new installations.
For some strange reason which I don't agree to, you have to prove you need the licence. All the fitters at work have one as part of their skills requirement, but there's a few other people around that were giving a flat "No..." when they inquired about doing the course (Such as: the robotics programmer and members of our technical department).
Unfortunately, they also exclude the general public from this licence, which I don't agree with because the main basis of the D/R licence is safety with electricity, and your home handyman would benefit greatly. It would also allow the DIY'ers a legal footing for home repairs.
I could be wrong, but if you're interested in the D/R licence, make some calls and see if you can get to do the course. You might be able to. 
I have a feeling that the "keep it in the trades" part of the deal is a union related stipulation. Don't start me on unions!

----------


## silentC

> Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world

  You're always welcome to go back.

----------


## bennylaird

After seeing the English plugs etc in Malaysia I'm supprised there aren't more fires etc. They were nasty, fuses inside most of them and so many different sizes to suit different loads.

----------


## bennylaird

> Having spent 5 years of my youth working as a qualified electricain then moving to a country that is 20 years behind the rest of the world

  
I watch the Pommy home shows on Foxtel where they do up a garden or fix up a house. 
You have to be kidding, the 20 years is the other way round, they do things the way my Dad did when I was a kid.

----------


## silentC

> After seeing the English plugs etc in Malaysia I'm supprised there aren't more fires etc. They were nasty, fuses inside most of them and so many different sizes to suit different loads.

  But Benny, they are 20 years ahead of us mate, so it's beyond our ability to comprehend.

----------


## bennylaird

They had this stange double adaptor system with so many holes to suit all the different plug, only time I've seen a double adaptor catch fire. But it may be the dodgy Malaysian manufactured components, the english plugs wouldn't have cardboard cable securing devices.

----------


## Honorary Bloke

Now that this thread has been well and truly highjacked, I am enjoying the resulting um, discussion. Good to see you take the phizz out of the Poms for a while, since we're getting slugged with 4X2's on the American Measurements thread.  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Rolleyes:   
It is not illegal here for a homeowner to replace like for like, but new work must be according to Code. Even so, I daresay a fair bit of our DIY wiring is dodgy. (Not mine,  :Wink:  as I always bring even like for like up to code if it needs it. And in my old house it often needs it. :eek: )

----------


## bennylaird

Cmon Bob, were talking real power here mate and the right frequency, not that dinky 110v 60Hrz stuff :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   
See we can bag you in two thread? :Tongue:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Cool:

----------


## Honorary Bloke

When I was but a lad of 9 or 10 tender years, I had learned in school that magnets somehow contained electricity. So, of course, in order to make a *really powerful* magnet, I put a wire on each end of the horseshoe and stuck them into the powerpoint. :eek: :eek: :eek:  
The resulting spark traveled from one end of the house to the other and created an opportunity for my Dad and I to form a somewhat closer bond down in the basement afterward.  :Frown:  Even our dinky 120 volt can hurt if you stick your tongue in the light socket.  :Biggrin:

----------


## bennylaird

Apparently a fresh 9V drycell on the tounge can do the job as well? Never actually seen a documented case though. 
Had a student at TAFE stick an LED into the socket and then flicked the switch. Don't worry he will never do it again, took a few hours to get colour back into his face and for him to see properly. Doesn't matter how much you preach safety you still get duck heads like him.

----------


## thatirwinfella

> The legislation was changed a few years ago (at least it was in Victoria, I don't know about the rest of Aus) and a new licence was introduced called "Disconnect/Reconnect". The idea behind it is to allow "like for like" replacement of anything electrical and allows any non-electrician to be able to do repairs, such as GPO (power point) replacement, etc, but not do new installations.
> For some strange reason which I don't agree to, you have to prove you need the licence. All the fitters at work have one as part of their skills requirement, but there's a few other people around that were giving a flat "No..." when they inquired about doing the course (Such as: the robotics programmer and members of our technical department).
> Unfortunately, they also exclude the general public from this licence, which I don't agree with because the main basis of the D/R licence is safety with electricity, and your home handyman would benefit greatly. It would also allow the DIY'ers a legal footing for home repairs.
> I could be wrong, but if you're interested in the D/R licence, make some calls and see if you can get to do the course. You might be able to. 
> I have a feeling that the "keep it in the trades" part of the deal is a union related stipulation. Don't start me on unions!

  the d/r licence is restricted to people with a business need for it, such as fitters/plumbers and hvac guys. it is so they can install pumps, air cons, hot water services without needing an electrician, and gives them an idea of what not to do... eg, if you disconnect that green and yellow wire from that water pipe, make sure you put it back.

----------


## chrisp

> the d/r *licence is restricted to people with a business need for it*, such as fitters/plumbers and hvac guys. it is so they can install pumps, air cons, hot water services without needing an electrician, and gives them an idea of what not to do... eg, if you disconnect that green and yellow wire from that water pipe, make sure you put it back.

  I don't think it is any thing to do with "need for it" - it's to maintain a closed-shop. 
So it's "dangerous" for people to do their own wiring because they mightn't know how to do it properly - so we have regulations limiting who can do the work.  But if you do want to learn the correct method and have an official disconnect-connect permit (S-permit) to do work around your own home safely then sorry you can't have one! 
What a lot of crap we put up with - time to change I think.  I think the UK or US system is better than ours! 
I'm all for allowing anyone to learn correct wiring procedures - the more that people know the correct procedures the better the electrical system will be.

----------


## silentC

> I'm all for allowing anyone to learn correct wiring procedures

  Coming from someone with your user name, that is just too funny  :Biggrin:

----------


## thatirwinfella

> What a lot of crap we put up with - time to change I think. I think the UK or US system is better than ours! 
> I'm all for allowing anyone to learn correct wiring procedures - the more that people know the correct procedures the better the electrical system will be.

  
these are from a site frequented by US and UK sparkies. Yes, their regs are different to some of ours, but I'll let the pics speak for themselves.  http://www.electrical-contractor.net...ML/001034.html http://www.electrical-contractor.net...ML/000705.html http://www.electrical-contractor.net...ML/001041.html 
...and you're telling me these are better systems?

----------


## Cliff Rogers

Mr Irwin, can you pls edit your post & remove the http:/ from in front of your links so they work.  :Wink:

----------


## Eastie

> A good call!
> ...Second: Information for doing it safely.
> There's a course that can be done for the correct use, installation and upkeep of electrical systems. It's called an apprenticeship and takes 4 years to complete....

     
The day they legislate owner builders doing their own wiring is the day I'll go into grave digging - there'll be better returns than the stockmarket.

----------


## boban

This is always the result whenever someone asks for electrical advice. 
I can't see the need for a four year apprenticeship.  You could learn everything for domestic installations in less than 6 months.  Some might argue that the time it took to read the Standards would suffice. 
Im sorry if I offend, but unlike many other trades, skill is not usually associated with domestic electrical work.   
Most the information you need is readily available on the net or to purchase from Standards Australia.  If you cant understand the diagrams etc, you probably wont attempt it anyway.   
What I find most annoying, and something I've noticed from the first day on the forums is that if a "familiar" forumite asks an electrical question, the approach seems to be somewhat different. 
Perhaps all electrical questions should be answered with the following preface  
"It is illegal, extremely dangerous and obviously not something you should attempt, but qualified electricians would do it this way" 
I agree with Pulse's approach.  If he follows the method knowing that it is illegal, extremely dangerous and not something that he should attempt, then his life is in his own hands.

----------


## Eastie

You don't offend me, but we do differ in opinions. If someone wants to do it legislation won't stop them. From time to time I'll trow my two bob in just like you. I suppose we could do a backflip to the 1950's and see trades used as fodder on projects like the snowy hydro. The problem with that is they learned from their mistakes and ensured legislation protected the trades and to this day they and other trades are offered protection by means of licenses to apply agreed standards that are backed by the governments we elect, employer associations and employee associations. Be it a building, plumbing or electrical license, there are long established and entrenched reasons for them.   
What makes this a great place to live is the fact that we can and do challenge the laws and can have such discussion.....

----------


## bennylaird

Owner builders can always obtain a restricted license without the need for the full 4 years. Depends on what level you intend to work to. No problems with someone doing their own installation in consultation with a sparkie who will oversee the work and check it to his satisfaction. They do this with their apprentices so they know what to look for. But the thing is they provide the control. To do it by yourself without any help and physical inspection by a trained sparkie is like doing your own surgery. It might be fine but.....................

----------


## pharmaboy2

"To do it by yourself without any help and physical inspection by a trained sparkie is like doing your own surgery. " 
I think doing your own surgery is a tad trickier! 
I dont hear many people advocating a complete dissolution of the regs or licensing system, just  more in line with most other western countries, that allow like for like replacement for the homeowner (not for the chippy to take on small electrical work!) 
Current ones just say  ..  NO!    Bit reminiscient of Nacy Reagan's version of drug education - "just say no!",  doesnt work, hasnt worked, wont work - our electrocution rates are testament to that.

----------


## bennylaird

Yo do a replacement of what is already there implies that the wiring is already"checked out" by a sparkie. The DIYer will probably do a neat and safe replacement, often better than a trained sparkie. They will have enough nouse to kill any power before hand, probably the whole house. It's not a problem but I wouldn't adverise the fact that he has done it for obvious reasons. 
What I object to is people who add new work without proper advice and a physical inspection. Someone decribing the procedure over the forum doesn't necessarily have the full picture. 
Do what you feel is right but think of the consequences if you stuff up?

----------


## silentC

> What I find most annoying, and something I've noticed from the first day on the forums is that if a "familiar" forumite asks an electrical question, the approach seems to be somewhat different.

  Disagree with you there. My answer to anyone would be the same. Don't do it, it's illegal, get a sparky. 
It's not a grey area, it's cut and dried. Not a question of how hard it is or whether or not people have free will. You're not allowed to do your own wiring, that's the answer when someone asks one of these questions. You can whinge about it as much as you like but them's the facts. 
Would also be interested to know the legal consequences for the forum if someone followed the advice posted and something went wrong or they got caught? Hopefully none, but...

----------


## silentC

> our electrocution rates are testament to that

  You haven't established that. I was flicking through that link and there seemed to be a lot of categories, including licensed persons, unlicensed persons, members of the public etc and overhead lines, network assets etc. When you can give us a stat that shows how many deaths occurred in homes from incorrectly wired points and lights, then you have something to argue with. At the moment, you just have a number that shows how many people died from electrocution for whatever reason. At the moment, your number would also include people who died from electrocution after touching an overhead wire, people who died installing electrical equipment on the job etc. 
If anything, if there _is_ a higher rate of electrocutions in Australia than the UK, it says that we aren't doing _enough_. And you are using this as an argument for deregulation that would open it up to anybody who wants to do their own wiring? It doesn't make sense to me.

----------


## MurrayD99

The problem is, really, most of the stuff we might be tempted to do is pretty straightforward and with a logical, sober approach, the end result will be the same as if Edison himself came and did the wiring.  You remove the fuse, make sure the circuit is dead three different ways and think about what you are doing.....   
If you need to shift a sub main - don't.  It starts to get tricky.
If you are putting a whole lot of points in the basement or the garage - there will be load issues and you better not. Even if you will only use one point at a time, houses get sold and the incoming buyer should expect to be able to use all the plugs if he wants to.  The question seems to be where to draw the line...  Frankly, the standard of wiring in new houses (here) is pretty micky mouse.  Wires going all directions... diagonally across walls etc...  You used to be able to drive a nail into a stud and be OK - now....    you'd never know.  Me go now....

----------


## silentC

> The question seems to be where to draw the line...

  We don't get to draw it, it has been drawn for us  :Wink:    

> most of the stuff we might be tempted to do is pretty straightforward and with a logical, sober approach, the end result will be the same as if Edison himself came and did the wiring

  See, I don't have the same faith in humanity that you do. I think that most of the people on here would be more than capable of what you are suggesting. There are a few that I would hold grave doubts about, but on the whole, most of us can use a computer and express ourselves clearly enough that you get the impression that wiring up a few points or a light or two would be well within our capabilities. 
But, I have had the pleasure of experiencing all sorts of different people from all walks of life over the years, through work, friends, doing jobs in people's homes. I'm sorry, but some people just do not have the nous to wire a plug. Make that many. Maybe even most. No, that's going to far. Let's leave it at many. 
Now, if we were to introduce a system like they have in the UK and the US, would you really want one of nature's beautiful people messing about with the wiring in a house you are about to buy from them? I know damn sure I wouldn't. Leave that alone, I would say. 
OK, say you introduced a course that people could do to give them a qualification to do it themselves. Has anyone ever done an Owner Builder course? Do you think that a two day course gives you the skills and knowledge you need to build a house? Of course not. It is a rubber stamp to satisfy a legislative requirement that home owners undertaking blah blah blah blah. 
No, I am not an optimist when it comes to relying on the common sense of humans or on the ability of governments to do things properly, or to see that they are done properly. 
And just think Murray, if what I read in the SMH this morning comes to fruition, you could be a part of this great country too!

----------


## chrisp

> Owner builders can always obtain a restricted license without the need for the full 4 years.

  Benny, 
I don't know if you have tried to obtain a restricted license - and I mean a linence that actually allows you to wire, not just disconnect and reconnect. 
As a professional electrical engineer I can not obtain an "occupier's license" (which would allow me to do electrical work only on my own house) in Victoria without doing a four-year apprenticeship. 
The regulations require that I sit an exam on the wiring rules (no problems) and do 80 hours supervised work (no problems).  But to do the supervised work experience a whole heap of other rules have to be met and in the end it is actually easier to do a four-year apprenticeship. 
I think the regulations are there to maintain a closed-shop but they are veiled as there for our safety.

----------


## bennylaird

Our department at Vic Uni used to teach the S License but I wasn't involved with it. Might see what that entails if it still exists? 30 years as a radio tech doesn't give me any right to go beyond a plug even though I work with Radars etc up around the 2 Megawatt range and have wriiten manuals etc for Loy Yang B power station.

----------


## Eastie

> ...You remove the fuse, make sure the circuit is dead three different ways and think about what you are doing.....

  The established three different ways is test on a known live source, test the diconection, test on a known live source again.  Hands up haw many home handy persons have a decent enough multi meter to be safely playing with 240 and have the skills to safely test live circuits, knowing exactly what they are doing.

----------


## bennylaird

In Malaysia one of the RAAFies was working on his stereo in the room with his wife and 2 week old baby. He turned it off at the wall plug and took the cover off. Pick it up to move it and it contacted his chest and rendered his heart invalid as it took the full path of 240v pushing some substantial current through it.  
Of course he should have unplugged it but the major cause was the fact that the active and neutral were reversed and only the active was switched, hence the neutral. Simple matter of swapping the two wire over. 
I have seen many diyers who make the same mistake usually when they make extension leads. Just not enough basic knowledge.

----------


## silentC

I just plug my radio in and if it works, it's live, if it doesn't, it's dead... 
I'll shut up now  :Wink:

----------


## bennylaird

> I just plug my radio in and if it works, it's live, if it doesn't, it's dead... 
> I'll shut up now

  Hope your radio never develops a fault :Shock:   :Shock:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   
Wonder how many do rely on the same sort of test though?
:confused: :eek: :eek:

----------


## Gra

> active and neutral were reversed

  mixing up the active and neutral is always a problem in the forces :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  
Ok, i will go find a spare friday thread to drivel in

----------


## bennylaird

See if you can find an old open one?

----------


## thatirwinfella

> Benny, 
> I don't know if you have tried to obtain a restricted license - and I mean a linence that actually allows you to wire, not just disconnect and reconnect. 
> As a professional electrical engineer I can not obtain an "occupier's license" (which would allow me to do electrical work only on my own house) in Victoria without doing a four-year apprenticeship. 
> The regulations require that I sit an exam on the wiring rules (no problems) and do 80 hours supervised work (no problems). But to do the supervised work experience a whole heap of other rules have to be met and in the end it is actually easier to do a four-year apprenticeship. 
> I think the regulations are there to maintain a closed-shop but they are veiled as there for our safety.

  calling it a closed shop is the wrong term, that implies keeping it union labour only, this has nothing to do with the unions.  
what they are trying to do is keep electricity to the electricians. Frankly, I can't see anything wrong with that.  
You seem to be developing a case of engineers' head. the most obvious symptom includes because they''re an engineer than they surely must know everything about electricity, which leads to the design of impractical and ineffiecient systems that are difficult to install, maintain and operate. 
having said that, there are excellent engineers out there. If you meet one, send him my way, I'm still yet to meet one.  
While people may claim that electricity is easy to understand, why do we get questions like "can i put a 10 amp plug on this 15 amp tool and run it from the same circuit my fridge, heaters and the rest of my workshop is on?". mostly, from people not understanding enough about electricity.

----------


## bennylaird

First givaway is when they say the voltage runs down here etc

----------


## adrian

I had a space under my house that had a concrete slab, power point and lights and nothing else. I converted it to a proper room, put up the walls, plaster and cornice, painted it and tiled the slab, then found out too late that the lights and power point were all on the same circuit. Luckily I isolated the power and light circuit at the same time when it came time to poke the wires through the plaster to remount the fittings. That's the sort of thing D.I.Yers can do when they don't know what they are doing and the fool who did that job placed my life at risk.
Having said that, I have seen some of the bad jobs that electricians have done so I tend to look over their shoulder while they are working.

----------


## MurrayD99

> We don't get to draw it, it has been drawn for us    
> And just think Murray, if what I read in the SMH this morning comes to fruition, you could be a part of this great country too!

  
Yeah, Mr C,  I know...  I was thinking "us" who so far have not screwed up, far as we know, rather than the great un-washed. 
Now, on that other matter - I caught something on the news last night - is this imminent?   Very nice, but I saw our Minister of Finance saying it will never happen. I guess he wants to keep his job. :Biggrin:  Think you might have to invade while everyone is distracted - looking to Fiji.

----------


## MurrayD99

> The established three different ways is test on a known live source, test the diconection, test on a known live source again. Hands up haw many home handy persons have a decent enough multi meter to be safely playing with 240 and have the skills to safely test live circuits, knowing exactly what they are doing.

  Test on a known live source...  then again.... then put a screwdriver across the live ones to see if they want to continue the conversation.... 
Hey, a thought...  that red wire, same colour as the dead centre?  Must be earth.   (No, No, don't try this at home....  just kidding... anyway, it is now blue, brown....  which is it?)

----------


## MurrayD99

Reckon we are sailing close to the wind here guys.  Gotta be a lockout looming and it is only Wednesday.  How's yer pine box Benny?  Got the thread back yet?

----------


## bennylaird

It's gone to sleep, the box thread. 
But lets just make sure that we dont cause any probs: 
Active is Brown (or red)
Neutral is Blue (or black)
Earth is Green/Yellow (or green) 
Don't every mix em up cos it may not be you who becomes the vibrating attachment.

----------


## Gra

whenever I touch them they all end up black....  I recon that the smoke is what makes the wires different colours.  As soon as you let the smoke out they all turn black..... :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

----------


## bennylaird

> whenever I touch them they all end up black....  I recon that the smoke is what makes the wires different colours.  As soon as you let the smoke out they all turn black.....

  
And I thought your Afro Haircut was natural?:eek:  :Tongue:   :Tongue:   
Careful Gra don't let out the Magic Smoke theory of electricity, it's our secret :Wink:

----------


## MurrayD99

> First givaway is when they say the voltage runs down here etc

  It comes out the plug doesn't it.  Particles of electricity....  or is it magnetism?  Less if in the US of course.:confused:

----------


## silentC

I know someone who believes, no matter how hard I try to convince them otherwise, that if you leave a power point switched on with nothing plugged in, it wastes electricity.

----------


## bennylaird

> It comes out the plug doesn't it.  Particles of electricity....  or is it magnetism?  Less if in the US of course.:confused:

  So much to learn, so little time. Where is my Aussie/Kiwi phrase book:confused: :confused:   
Voltage   is like pressure, goes nowhere
Current is the flow, electons but Engineers have it going the wrong way
Resistance is the opposition to current flow. 
Isn't electicity easy :Rolleyes:   
Oh and it goes down the plug hole the other way in the northern hemisphere :Tongue:   :Tongue:   :Tongue:

----------


## bennylaird

> I know someone who believes, no matter how hard I try to convince them otherwise, that if you leave a power point switched on with nothing plugged in, it wastes electricity.

  And rightly so, it leaches into the air so make sure you leave a window open :Cool:

----------


## JDub

> it leaches into the air

  Thats why you must never light a match indoors when powerpoints are turned on..........

----------


## MurrayD99

What's this potential difference thing then?  Nothing like a double period of physics on a Wednesday afternoon!

----------


## silentC

I still can't get over the fact that there's an electrical engineer out there who goes by the moniker of chrisp :eek:

----------


## MurrayD99

:Biggrin:   :Biggrin:  Just kidding. You needn't answer that.  1/R1 + 1/R2.....

----------


## bennylaird

> What's this potential difference thing then?  Nothing like a double period of physics on a Wednesday afternoon!

  The potential difference is the force that exists between Null Zulland and Oztralia. It is this force which provides a flow of Kiwis to Bondi in search of welfare payments. :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:  
ie another name for voltage  :Cool:

----------


## bennylaird

> Just kidding. You needn't answer that.  1/R1 + 1/R2.....

  That parallels the answer if your not being seriesous :Tongue:

----------


## MurrayD99

Killer.  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:    It does something to the balance of payments does it?   
Reckon this thread is achieving perpetual motion

----------


## bennylaird

(shhhhh don't even associate it with the day before Saturday)

----------


## MurrayD99

> That parallels the answer if your not being seriesous

  Not bad at all!  (2 at a blow too!).  Where is friend Bishfactor? He started this and must be in tears at the direction it has taken and angst generated.   I'd be proud!  Which boys will be disciplined for this?   :Smilie:

----------


## bennylaird

All Felders fault, he incited it all. 
(ok so can't tie him in, but sure it's his fault?)

----------


## Felder

> All Felders fault, he incited it all.

  :confused::confused: 
I just got here. I came in to see what all the activity was about, and find myself being blamed for something that I had no prior knowledge of. 
Oh by the way, you may as well blame me for the fall of Rome.  
As soon as I turn my back...... :Frown:

----------


## MurrayD99

He'll plead dusty conditions and trouble with customs...  I imagine that Hammer needs a plug re-wire (just ducking for cover here).  You say you reverse the phase and neutral downunder, right?

----------


## bennylaird

Bugr, now we have to find someone else to blame :Frown:   :Frown:    
It was that bugr Brendan!!!!!!! :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

----------


## bennylaird

> He'll plead dusty conditions and trouble with customs...  I imagine that Hammer needs a plug re-wire (just ducking for cover here).  You say you reverse the phase and neutral downunder, right?

  
Just remember to consult the phases of the moon as it all changes, most people miss that :Biggrin:   
Maybe I should just stay neutral, till it all blows over?:confused:

----------


## MurrayD99

I'm heading out before the Trades Certification Board men come and get me and confiscate my wire cutters....  Bon Soir from the red corner...

----------


## bennylaird

Me too, normal service will now resume.

----------


## chrisp

> I still can't get over the fact that there's an electrical engineer out there who goes by the moniker of chrisp :eek:

  Yep, hard to believe - it must have been some kind of parapraxia when I signed up! :Smilie:   
And I must be an excellent one too - I haven't met thatirwinfella (unless he was that TAFE teacher:eek: ) :Smilie:

----------


## silentC

You mean chrisp isn't your _real_ name?  :Cool:

----------


## Barry_White

> I had a space under my house that had a concrete slab, power point and lights and nothing else. I converted it to a proper room, put up the walls, plaster and cornice, painted it and tiled the slab, then found out too late that the lights and power point were all on the same circuit. Luckily I isolated the power and light circuit at the same time when it came time to poke the wires through the plaster to remount the fittings. That's the sort of thing D.I.Yers can do when they don't know what they are doing and the fool who did that job placed my life at risk.
> Having said that, I have seen some of the bad jobs that electricians have done so I tend to look over their shoulder while they are working.

  Actually under Rule 2.8 of SAA 3000 you can have a mixed circuit. If it is wired in 2.5mm2 cable you can have a maximum load of 4800 watts so you can have up to 15 lighting points and 3 GPO's on that circuit but must not exceed the 4800 watts. If it is wired in less than 2.5mm2 you can't have any GPO's on the circuit. 
Remember this is not advise or recommendation, only what the rule book states. 
Please read my disclaimer in my signature.

----------


## pharmaboy2

> You haven't established that. I was flicking through that link and there seemed to be a lot of categories, including licensed persons, unlicensed persons, members of the public etc and overhead lines, network assets etc. When you can give us a stat that shows how many deaths occurred in homes from incorrectly wired points and lights, then you have something to argue with. At the moment, you just have a number that shows how many people died from electrocution for whatever reason. At the moment, your number would also include people who died from electrocution after touching an overhead wire, people who died installing electrical equipment on the job etc. 
> If anything, if there _is_ a higher rate of electrocutions in Australia than the UK, it says that we aren't doing _enough_. And you are using this as an argument for deregulation that would open it up to anybody who wants to do their own wiring? It doesn't make sense to me.

  Why in Heavens name is this so hard to believe.  There isnt room for those numbers to be wrong, unless a minister of the crown was misleading parliament! I showed categorical proof that the numbers of people who DIE from electrocution in Australia and the UK is roughly equivalent, but them having a population of 3 times ours makes their rate lower - end of story, that is a fact, no matter what people want to read into it, its the way it is. 
Now, i agree that it would be nice to have both countries figures with deaths from various causes, as in, overhead line, high tension, industrial , whatever, but I've provided raw stuff and made a valid point, its up to those who disagree to find  a better breakdown.  I'm happy if when (if) someone finds better detailed information that I'm proven wrong, but as it stands with the information available in 2 places that use the same voltage/ampege, same language, same wiring regs (pretty much) etc, the one with the most amount of trade restriction (australia) is NOT the safest. 
I'd be ecstatic if someone can provide more info.

----------


## woodcutta

And when your finished your wiring it will need to be tested  
From the 1953 Americans Electricians Handbook - Oh thats right they can do their own wiring can't they. 
woodcutta

----------


## Honorary Bloke

> And when your finished your wiring it will need to be tested  
> From the 1953 Americans Electricians Handbook - Oh thats right they can do their own wiring can't they. 
> woodcutta

  Yeth, and I've goth the tongue to prove ith.  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   
The last sparky I had in to do some work (running a new powerpoint from an existing one) told me "not to bother" to turn off the circuit and then proceeded to wire the whole thing whilst it was live. :eek:

----------


## bennylaird

Malaysian "electricians" did the same sort of thing while I was up there. The check was to arc out the wires to see if they had power then to disconnect the ceiling fan while balanced on a 15ft ladder made of packing crates while holding the fan in on hand. Was always hoping I wasn't needed for the breath of life.

----------


## boban

> Disagree with you there. My answer to anyone would be the same. Don't do it, it's illegal, get a sparky. 
> It's not a grey area, it's cut and dried. Not a question of how hard it is or whether or not people have free will. You're not allowed to do your own wiring, that's the answer when someone asks one of these questions. You can whinge about it as much as you like but them's the facts. 
> Would also be interested to know the legal consequences for the forum if someone followed the advice posted and something went wrong or they got caught? Hopefully none, but...

  Of course its not a grey area, we all know its illegal, but that's not the point.  If you ask me which colour is active, I'll tell you.  If I dont know, I wont answer.  What you then go and do is your choice.  Same as cutting down a protected tree without a permit.  You ultimately make the decision.  What difference does it make that I tell you to use a chainsaw a certain way.  Information does not hurt you. 
As to the legal consequences for the forum. Well you wouldn't run one if misinformation was going to get you into trouble.  I've seen some advice on here on all sorts of topics that is just plain wrong.  But that's the nature of forums, places for discussions.

----------


## adrian

> Actually under Rule 2.8 of SAA 3000 you can have a mixed circuit. If it is wired in 2.5mm2 cable you can have a maximum load of 4800 watts so you can have up to 15 lighting points and 3 GPO's on that circuit but must not exceed the 4800 watts. If it is wired in less than 2.5mm2 you can't have any GPO's on the circuit. 
> Remember this is not advise or recommendation, only what the rule book states. 
> Please read my disclaimer in my signature.

  I'm amazed and confused. Are there any conditions on where this circuit can exist. Is this allowed in the same building. I can't see the point in requiring separate Power and Light circuit breakers and then allowing people to mix them up. Could you clarify.

----------


## silentC

> Why in Heavens name is this so hard to believe.

  Because statistics can be used in an incorrect manner to prove a point. Like saying that because more people per capita die from electrocution in Australia than in the UK that it somehow means that our system of preventing home owners from doing their own wiring is failing. It's like saying that licensing car drivers isn't working because our road toll is higher than upper kunbungasthan where they don't issue licenses, so we might as well remove the licensing requirement. 
You need to look at the causes of the deaths before you can draw any conclusions. Maybe we have more overhead lines in dangerous positions than they do. Maybe our unions aren't as militant, so the workplaces aren't as safe. It's not logical to say that we have laws preventing people wiring their own houses - our fatalities are higher - the laws don't work. You have to show that the deaths are due to people doing things that the law prohibits and that they would have done better if they had a) been allowed to do them and b) sought the education. 
I wonder how many people would "do the course" before wiring up the new points if there was one.    

> You ultimately make the decision

  Yeah, like when I decide I'd like to buy one more pint and then get in my car  :Wink:  
It's not about incorrect information. It's about correct information that may encourage someone to do something that is not legal. What's the difference between that and telling someone how to break into a car or make a bomb? I just want to know, that's all. Enlighten me.

----------


## MurrayD99

> .....Maybe we have more overhead lines in dangerous positions than they do. Maybe our unions aren't as militant, so the workplaces aren't as safe. .....

  
Quite so Mr C.  Just, for example, 240v tools on a building site in the UK - all 110v mandatory.  I don't know what the construction/electrocution stats are in the two countries but I think there is more chalk & cheese here than might be evident at first glance.

----------


## Dan

> ... then found out too late that the lights and power point were all on the same circuit. Luckily I isolated the power and light circuit at the same time when it came time to poke the wires through the plaster to remount the fittings. That's the sort of thing D.I.Yers can do when they don't know what they are doing and the fool who did that job placed my life at risk.

  Like Barry said, it is a mixed circuit, they're usaully used in sheds.
The only person placing your life at risk was yourself, but I don't see how a mixed circuit is any more dangerous. When you were isolating there would have been one circuit breaker to take out the whole lot.

----------


## Ashore

> I'm amazed and confused. Are there any conditions on where this circuit can exist. Is this allowed in the same building. I can't see the point in requiring separate Power and Light circuit breakers and then allowing people to mix them up. Could you clarify.

  Used for sheds lofts etc so you only have to run one circuit rather than two, pretty damm logical really  :Cool:

----------


## Pulse

A few months ago I downloaded the list of all electrocutions in NSW over about 6 years. Not many DIY deaths, most were work related either working live or due to old degraded insulation in split steel conduit. I think allowing DIY wiring would encourage replacement of these old circuits. 
Not many people are willing or able to shell out $5-$6K for a complete rewire. If they were able to run the wires themselves and get it hooked up by a sparky for $1K, the world would be a safer place. 
Cheers
Pulse

----------


## snowyskiesau

> A few months ago I downloaded the list of all electrocutions in NSW over about 6 years. Not many DIY deaths, most were work related either working live or due to old degraded insulation in split steel conduit. I think allowing DIY wiring would encourage replacement of these old circuits.

  Do you know if there is a list that shows injuries or property damage attributed to faulty wiring?

----------


## Pulse

http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/pd...ions/ftb35.pdf 
There is one for every year 
Cheers Pulse

----------


## thatirwinfella

> Quite so Mr C. Just, for example, 240v tools on a building site in the UK - all 110v mandatory. I don't know what the construction/electrocution stats are in the two countries but I think there is more chalk & cheese here than might be evident at first glance.

  the population density and low travel times between major urban areas would give a greater availability of sparkies with in say... 1hour travelling than in most parts of austalia.  
thats just one example.

----------


## chrisp

> Because statistics can be used in an incorrect manner to prove a point. Like saying that because more people per capita die from electrocution in Australia than in the UK that it somehow means that our system of preventing home owners from doing their own wiring is failing.

  With due respect Silent, I don't think that is the argument, the argument that the electrical authorities make is that the regulations needed for the safety of the public hence their strict restrictions on who can obtain a wiring license.  The statistics that pharmaboy2 has produced shows this not to be the case.  Yes, by all means be cautious of statistics, but if you don't believe them perhaps you can find some alternative figures.  I think in reality the death rate from electrocution is very small and you will have to look very hard to find an actual death from faulty wiring rather than unsafe work practice (for example, working on live circuits) or by inadvertently coming in contact with overhead lines.   

> Quite so Mr C.  Just, for example, 240v tools on a building site in the UK - all 110v mandatory.  I don't know what the construction/electrocution stats are in the two countries but I think there is more chalk & cheese here than might be evident at first glance.

  Hmmm, you say you don't know, but suspect they are chalk and cheese???    

> the population density and low travel times between major urban areas would give a greater availability of sparkies with in say... 1hour travelling than in most parts of austalia.  
> thats just one example.

  But people can do their own wiring in the UK and they are not getting killed at a greater rate than the Aussies.  We are not (or at least I'm not) contesting that licensed sparkies will do a safe job, we are arguing that the non-sparkies will do an unsafe job.  Again Pharmaboy2's figures don't support this.

----------


## bennylaird

All this is becoming tiresome. Lets all agree to disagree and do what feels right. 
Of course anyone with a moderate amount of success can gather the necessary info to wire up a few sockets. And more often than not they will be safe and able to meet requirements.  
It's the things that you may not be aware of that will be the problem but accept the risk and save some money. Just don't try and blame anyone else if things go wrong. 
But try to keep 3 things in mind: 
Safety,
Safety, and
Safety. 
If your not sure seek help which is why you ask a question here. Respect those who do not wish to place you in a position that may cause damage to yourself or your family by not trusting in your skills to complete the task. 
We all twist the rules to save a few dollars, but just remember that electricity doesn't suffer fools at all well.

----------


## boban

> It's not about incorrect information. It's about correct information that may encourage someone to do something that is not legal. What's the difference between that and telling someone how to break into a car or make a bomb? I just want to know, that's all. Enlighten me.

  The obvious one would be that with either example given there are definate victims.  One involves violence against property and the other against both property and possibly the person.

----------


## bennylaird

> The obvious one would be that with either example given there are definate victims.  One involves violence against property and the other against both property and possibly the person.

  Don't think it matters much to die from touching a wire incorrecty installed to being blown apart by a terrorist bomb? Either way your dead? 
I think it's much more likely to encounter the first here than the second. My nephew is permanently disabled after spending a week in hospital, touch and go, after cutting some carpet only to discover some duckhead had installed a new powerpoint by running the lead under the carpet.  
Another fun one, I was about to cut and earth lead, yellow and green, from a ceiling fan. As usual I did meter it and found it live, oh yes there was a note I found later in the juction bos explaining how the spare earth wire had been used to get a summer function from the fan. 
Why not admit it you lot, a little knowledge does not make up from proper training, at least they have had to sit through the boring safety classes and some might seep in but at least the system tried.

----------


## boban

I'm not sure that is what Silent was getting at, but your examples would seem to support providing the correct information where requested. 
Silent asked what the difference between informing someone about how to wire up correctly (illegal for DIY) and giving them the necessary information to commit deliberate acts of violence (both illegal).   
What I am saying is that if the wiring is done correctly then the crime of DIY wiring is not the same as the two examples he gives.

----------


## bennylaird

> I'm not sure that is what Silent was getting at, but your examples would seem to support providing the correct information where requested. 
> Silent asked what the difference between informing someone about how to wire up correctly (illegal for DIY) and giving them the necessary information to commit deliberate acts of violence (both illegal).   
> What I am saying is that if the wiring is done correctly then the crime of DIY wiring is not the same as the two examples he gives.

  Providing information and having it followed correcty is not assured, surely you have seen that before. It gives people confidence without the skills to look beyond the advice. 
SIlent is taking the cautious route, one that is inherently safe. I have spent years in a classroom after showing people the right way to do things then see their interpretation. Not nice to see a student locked onto 240V after you have stressed not to power up anything until it has been checked but they still do. You can't be trusting at all with leathal devices, bombs or power. I acknowlege the intent side of your argument but not the end result, dead is dead.

----------


## bennylaird

How many of you would hand over the keys of your car to your child after you had sat them down and told them how to drive safely? 
Do you  really know how dangerous power is? I'd post some pics but don't think they would last long as it sickens me to look at them. They show what can happen even when you are trained.

----------


## boban

> Not nice to see a student locked onto 240V after you have stressed not to power up anything until it has been checked but they still do.

  Stupid people will always be just that. 
That student didn't listen and neither will the guy intent on doing his own wiring.   
After they have been blasted here, they will simply say OK, Im calling a sparky to avoid any further criticism/well meant advice.  Then, (like a child who wants the chocolate and promises not to eat it), goes off and does it anyway.   
Surely, he is better off with the warning about safety and the information if he still wants to do it.  The correct information is in the public domain and readily available.  There are no secrets, so why pretend we cant quote AS3018 or AS3000 on here because they may get hurt if they do something wrong. 
I know electricity has that unique safety issue.  But surely, most semi-intelligent people realise this and can factor this in when making the decision about "doing the crime". 
And the are other benefits for DIY wiring.  I still smile when I think of the guy in Sydney who was electrocuted when he tried to bypass the meters for his marijuana hydroponics setup.  Someone should have told his to pull the main fuse out before doing the other crime :Biggrin:

----------


## boban

Perhaps I should be clear as to my position on DIY wiring. 
I dont think people without training or any experience should be running and connecting new circuits.   
I have no problem with people running wires, attaching stud brackets, conduit and general sparky grunt work, then having a sparky do the rest. 
I have no problem with a person replacing a GPO or adding one nearby.  I think that can be done safely by a reasonably intelligent person. 
Basically, I dont like being over governed and in my humble opinion, given that all of the above is illegal, I believe we are.  A perfect example is the ridiculous requirements for concretors in Hornsby Council who want to pour driveways in the area.  Application forms, work method statements, insurance and of course another fee to pay.  Yet they can pour up to the boundary without a problem.  
We constantly see the American mags with wiring advice and people aren't suddenly dropping off at alarming rates.  I see no difference in providing electrical advice here. 
I think I've said enough on this particular topic.

----------


## bennylaird

Sorry Boban, if they want they can find the regs online and do what they like, but I want no part of it. My advice is to seek a qualified person. I have seen too many hurt. 
We posted together, I feel you have the same values, if we feel the way things are done then talk out about them like we do here. If we have helped a DIYer think a bit more about safety then we have done good, 
Hey it's Friday!!!!!!! 
I'm off to drivel on and rubbish soccer etc etc :Tongue:   :Tongue:   :Tongue:

----------


## MurrayD99

> Sorry Boban, if they want they can find the regs online and do what they like, but I want no part of it. My advice is to seek a qualified person. I have seen too many hurt. 
> We posted together, I feel you have the same values, if we feel the way things are done then talk out about them like we do here. If we have helped a DIYer think a bit more about safety then we have done good, 
> Hey it's Friday!!!!!!! 
> I'm off to drivel on and rubbish soccer etc etc

  Sound like "The End"  Couldn't agree more.... Anyone got a padlock? :Biggrin:

----------


## Honorary Bloke

Yep.

----------


## Wood Butcher

Good idea Bob! Thread Closed

----------


## Robbo

Thread reopened to place this in from Adrian. The highlighting is mine.   

> adrian 
> Golden Member  
> Join Date: Sep 2003
> Location: Mid North Coast
> Age: 53
> Posts: 525 
>   Electrical Forum  
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> In the Basic Home Wiring thread which was wisely closed I mentioned in Post 63 the dangerous situation I encountered when a DIY electrician placed power and light fittings on the same circuit. I received three responses, only one of which from Barry_White mentioned the Australian Standard. *The others seemed to suggest that a common circuit was a good idea without qualifying the statement by saying that the circuit should be isolated by a separate circuit breaker. In my case the circuit was supplied with a common wire from a powerpoint in the bedroom above. This is clearly illegal but anyone reading the replies to my post, without adequate knowledge, would believe it to be ok to combine power and light feeds without a circuit breaker.*If the thread is to remain I don't think these posts should stay there. Ambiguous information is dangerous in a 240v environment and maybe a ban on technical information in the forum is required.

----------


## boban

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">adrian 
Golden Member  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Mid North Coast
Age: 53
Posts: 525 
Electrical Forum  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
In the Basic Home Wiring thread which was wisely closed I mentioned in Post 63 the dangerous situation I encountered when a DIY electrician placed power and light fittings on the same circuit. I received three responses, only one of which from Barry_White mentioned the Australian Standard. *The others seemed to suggest that a common circuit was a good idea without qualifying the statement by saying that the circuit should be isolated by a separate circuit breaker. In my case the circuit was supplied with a common wire from a powerpoint in the bedroom above. This is clearly illegal but anyone reading the replies to my post, without adequate knowledge, would believe it to be ok to combine power and light feeds without a circuit breaker.*If the thread is to remain I don't think these posts should stay there. Ambiguous information is dangerous in a 240v environment and maybe a ban on technical information in the forum is required.   
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> 
I feel the above post is plain wrong. 
Why? 
Anyone reading the thread would know that a mixed circuit is legal even if it is taken off a bedroom powerpoint provided that the there are no more than 3 GPO's on the circuit etc. There is nothing in any post by Adrian that suggests that the wiring is illegal.  
Even the two pieces of advice that didn't quote the AS would not leave a person thinking I can do anything I like.  
The light and GPO is protected by a circuit breaker. Whether it is overloaded is at this stage unknown, even by Adrian it would seem. Yet he is quite prepared to criticize the DIY sparky (i'm guessing that he is assuming this to be the case) who did the work without the complete set of facts (or at least not posting them). 
The unqualified statements where simply addressed to the possibility of a mixed circuit, nothing else.  
As you are no doubt aware, I think discussion of the Standards is a good thing. Anyone reading that thread properly, would know that the AS provides for a mixed circuit and the maximum load. How is that a bad thing? 
In my opinion, Adrian put his foot in it as he clearly didn't know that a mixed circuit was legal, yet had a go the person who installed it. His last post was just an attempt to justify his attack and try and get his foot out of his mouth.

----------


## adrian

Wow, it's open again. Time to have my right of reply to Boban's deleted thread before it gets closed again. I accept the fact that I wasn't clear enough in my original post when I told of the incompetence of a DIY electrician. The details I missed in the original post was that the combined circuit was run from a powerpoint in the room above. I should have also placed in the post that I know combined circuits (legally installed) are quite ok because I have one in a detached granny flat. I wrongly assumed that everyone would take it as read that I was referring to illegal wiring. SORRY, I should have said that. I sent PMs to the 3 people who originally responded to that post and clarified the situation. Which I'm sure was accepted by them. 
Then Boban starts his rant and tells us that combined circuits are legal even if they originate from a bedroom powerpoint. After reading his new thread I called three electricians to clarify the situation and they all said that it was illegal and dangerous. One correctly pointed out that it placed his life in danger if he were to work on it without knowing the situation and would void my household insurance if there was an electrical fire.
Boban's information is dead wrong. No-one should ever connect a light fitting to a powerpoint unless such a combined circuit has a separate feed from a power board with it's own breaker/fuse. It also has to be designated as such so that anyone working in that location knows that pulling the fuse to the light circuit means that all light fittings in that location will still remain live.
Although not a licenced electrician, I have been a technician for 30 years and apply common sense to these types of situations. Boban should do likewise and not post information that could get someone killed.
Play the last post guys.

----------


## boban

This is the PM I got from Adrian 
 You really need to check your facts before you decided to personally attack someone. I have a legal shared circuit in a detached granny flat. The circuit is legal because it ORIGINATES FROM THE SWITCHBOARD and is designated as such.
The circuit in my room downstairs originates from a powerpoint and is not only illegal, it's criminally stupid. If anyone installs such a circuit that results in someone getting electrocuted they can be charged with manslaughter. 
I've consulted three electricians and they all advise that it's illegal and must be rectified to conform to the standard. It would also void my household insurance in the event of an electrical fire. Your post was dangerous and I'm not surprised that it is to be deleted.   *This was my reply*  
 As I said, no-where in your posts did you day that you had consulted 3 sparkies. You seem to be making it up as you go along.  
Now you say that you knew you could have a mixed circuit. This knowledge is not evident in your first and subsequent posts. 
Your lack of knowledge is quite evident in that you think that you cannot take off power from behind a another GPO. You will find that that is how your whole house is wired. *They all originate from the switchboard.*  
Only if the total number of GPO's and total load exceeds the AS specification will the circuit be deemed to be illegal. The only way a sparky would know that to be the case is to personally inspect the circuit. Again, you haven't said this. You could even do this yourself if you knew how and it would not be illegal to do so. 
Your circuit may well be illegal. I dont know, but the information you have posted does not lead to that undeniable conclusion. You criticised on the basis of mixed circuits existing. Plain and simple. 
I didn't want either thread to be closed so that you could respond in open. I even sent a PM to Ozwinner to that effect.  
I'm quite happy to debate this in open. 
As to me checking my facts, I'm relying solely on what you posted, nothing more, nothing less. If you want to add some new facts then do so.   
 I even went to the trouble of cutting and pasting the relevant posts in chronological order so that you can make up your own minds.

----------


## Cliff Rogers

This thread is likely to be closed again if you continue the 'hesaid/shesaid' slanging match.  :Rolleyes:   
There is no points to be gain in having a slanging match. 
A heated discussion on the topic is fine, you can even disagree but if you start personal attacks, it will be shut down again I'm sure.  :Wink:

----------


## Wood Butcher

> This thread is likely to be closed again if you continue the 'hesaid/shesaid' slanging match.

   No, it was opened by higher powers to see who will win the pissing contest. :Biggrin:     

> There is no points to be gain in having a slanging match.

  Nope, could get you a few reddies though.   

> A heated discussion on the topic is fine, you can even disagree but if you start personal attacks, it will be shut down again I'm sure.

   If any thread resorts to personal attacks or abusive language, the offenders *will* be reprimanded.

----------


## boban

> Then Boban starts his rant and tells us that combined circuits are legal even if they originate from a bedroom powerpoint.

  Dont misquote me.  What I said is quite clear.  No circuit originates from a powerpoint.     

> After reading his new thread I called three electricians to clarify the situation and they all said that it was illegal and dangerous.

   

> Boban's information is dead wrong.

  Exactly how is it wrong. All I ever did was refer to the fact that the AS provides for it and that you got it wrong. You just cant accept that. 
You now say that you were aware of mixed circuits but previously said this:   

> I'm amazed and confused. Are there any conditions on where this circuit can exist. Is this allowed in the same building. I can't see the point in requiring separate Power and Light circuit breakers and then allowing people to mix them up. Could you clarify.

  
You can just keep adding info if you like. The simple fact is that anyone reading those three posts would know exactly what the requirements were for a mixed circuit. To me that is not "dangerous".  
Those that think I got it wrong or posted anything dangerous, then Im willing to hear from you. I'll eat humble pie if its warranted.

----------


## Malibu

Hell... I just want to know did he get his power points put in or not???  :Biggrin:

----------


## outback

Fair dinkum, I got sent to the naughty corner and given an official reprimand for less than this. :confused: 
I think everyone needs a bex and a little lie down, best not in a bedroom with a powerpoint though.

----------


## adrian

Maybe there's an electrician on the board who can put him right because it's getting a little tedious. But I'll have one more try.
A common circuit starts from the point at which it connects to the power conductor. If that power conductor is on a powerpoint it's illegal and dangerous.  It has to be separately fused. I can't say it any plainer than that. If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.
It's not anything as childish as a pissing competition or a test of wills. It's all about correcting information that's dangerously wrong.

----------


## Cliff Rogers

> ... If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.......

  Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

----------


## Wood Butcher

That makes two of us Cliff.

----------


## Dan

How about a drawing?

----------


## boban

> Maybe there's an electrician on the board who can put him right because it's getting a little tedious. But I'll have one more try.
> A common circuit starts from the point at which it connects to the power conductor. If that power conductor is on a powerpoint it's illegal and dangerous. It has to be separately fused. I can't say it any plainer than that. If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.
> It's not anything as childish as a pissing competition or a test of wills. It's all about correcting information that's dangerously wrong.

  I'm not giving any advice.  I'm saying that the 3 posts abouts common circuits are not dangerous. 
Now to address you directly on this mythical common feed.  Why would anyone form a bridge from one light to another that is already connected.  You really are clutching at straws.  That would apply to any bridge between circuits.  But that would be plain stupid. 
Your powerpoints will be connected together on each of the respective circuits.  All will be fed from the mains hopefully through a RCD then through an MCB then to your first powerpoint(s). It is then like a chain from one powerpoint to another.  By going off one of these powerpoints you are simply extending that circuit not creating a new one. The circuit starts at the switchboard and ends at the last powerpoint. 
If you decide to overload that circuit then thats another matter. 
Dont confuse the issue or pretend this is about safety.  Its about you saving face.   
Read and follow those three posts carefully and you will have no problem.   
Lets see how many sparkies tell me Im wrong Adrian.

----------


## boban

> Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

  That is just an extremely unlikely hypothetical.

----------


## adrian

I know when I'm licked. It's true what they say about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. No amount of arguement is going to change your mind. Go ahead and do what you want and I'll do what I want based on the advice of people who know what they are talking about. 
I can definitely hear the last post playing. 
PS. The electrician is coming next week to rewire my room downstairs. I was going to leave it on the backburner but this discussion has prodded me into action. At least I can thank you for that.

----------


## boban

> I know when I'm licked. It's true what they say about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing. No amount of arguement is going to change your mind. Go ahead and do what you want and I'll do what I want based on the advice of people who know what they are talking about. 
> I can definitely hear the last post playing.

  You say you are licked then continue on with a backhanded remark without addressing any of the techincal matters I have highlighted.  My information comes from the AS and electricians because I have access to both on regular basis.  I had this very discussion concerning mixed circuits 3 years ago on one of my developments when the sparky forgot one of the exterior lights. 
As far as me doing as I want.  I would gladly follow the advice given by the 3 posters.   Again, that is all I have ever advised.   

> PS. The electrician is coming next week to rewire my room downstairs. I was going to leave it on the backburner but this discussion has prodded me into action. At least I can thank you for that.

  Very good.  And if he finds that there are more than 3 GPO's on that circuit then you will have an illegal circuit.  Until you tell us otherwise, nothing you have said suggests that it is undeniably illegal.

----------


## adrian

> Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

  What post? It seemed that some were incapable of grasping the phrase "It's Illegal and dangerous" so I had to do a bit of spoon-feeding.
It's a post to clarify the technical aspect of the circuit. I didn't feel that I should be going into that much detail because anyone who is experienced doesn't require it and anyone who needs it shouldn't get it (on this forum) because they should be calling an electrician. I have been posting replies to counteract the bad advice given by Boban. Personally, I think the thread should be deleted so that the bad advice is gone for good and doesn't have to be corrected.

----------


## Barry_White

My last word in this post and not taking sides. 
First of all my knowledge comes from although not a licenced sparky I spent 10 years wiring houses and doing air conditioning control circuits with a business partner who was a licenced electrical contractor in an air conditioning and electrical business. 
If it is as Boban says that there was no more than 3 GPO's on the circuit along with the basement lights it could be legal but with this proviso that the switch board was marked on the fuse or the circuit breaker that it was a mixed circuit for the basement and Bedroom No. whatever. If it wasn't marked on the switch board it is deemed as inadmissible and not complying. 
If the GPO's and the lights in the basement were an extension of one of the house power circuits which is the possibility if it was done by a DIY'er without any regard to the rules it would certainly be illegal. 
A licenced sparky should never extend a Power circuit into a mixed circuit and any sparky worth his salt would run a separate mixed circuit direct to the basement from the switch board by passing any circuits in the house.  
The idea of mixed circuits is basically for isolated areas such as a basement, attic or shed. 
Who is right and who is wrong can only be determined when Adrian gets his sparky out to really check it and I am sure that he will let us all know after that happens.

----------


## Barry_White

That was really my second last word. 
Poor Bishfactor is probably wishing he had never asked the question about his wiring dilemma as his post really got hijacked and if he wasn't confused when he first posted I bet he now.  
And for any one that hasn't weighed through the 10 pages of posts is probably wondering who poor old Bishfactor is. Well go to post No. 1 and all will be revealed.

----------


## Cliff Rogers

> .... If at a later stage one of the lights on this circuit gets connected back to the rest of the house ie: both ends of the common feed, it will form a permanent bridge between the power and light circuits and pulling either circuit breaker will leave the powerpoints and lights still live because of the bridge. Anyone who follows his advice could lose a house or a life.....

   

> Where was that posted, I must have missed it?

   

> What post? It seemed that some were incapable of grasping the phrase "It's Illegal and dangerous" so I had to do a bit of spoon-feeding......

  Spoon-feeding? :confused:  
They way I read it you implied that it was 'somebodies' advice.... look again at the bit in red... it comes straight after the bit that you now say was "a bit of spoon-feeding".  :Cool:   
This is no longer a discussion on wiring, it's a 'he said/she said' slanging match. 
A war of words & I think the notary is in front at present.  :Biggrin:

----------


## outback

I can't believe I'm gonna say this. 
Robbo hang on tight, Groggy check yer boots.  
but someone, PLEASE close this bloody thread.

----------


## Sturdee

> Poor Bishfactor is probably wishing he had never asked the question about his wiring dilemma as his post really got hijacked and if he wasn't confused when he first posted I bet he now.

  Barry, 
Bishfactor probably couldn't careless as he said his adios and hasn't been back on since then. 
Mind this whole thread has been boring and like Outback said it should be closed.  
Peter.

----------


## Groggy

What is it with electrical threads?  :Rolleyes:   
When I read this thread I get the following information from it:  This issue is confused, opinions differ.I don't like electricity.It doesn't like me.It is not worth turning my house into smoke based on uninsured advice from this forum.I'll get a qualified and insured sparky to do the work because, if my house vaporises, I know I can track him down and make him accountable. At the very least I can claim on insurance. 
Telling the insurance guy that I wired my house wrong due to advice I followed from the internet will only make the day of one of us, and it won't be me. 
Outback: Close the thread? (rubs eyes, looks again) Outback? dat really you said dat?  :Wink:

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

Boring?? no way, I love a bit of biffo.

----------


## Jack E

> but someone, PLEASE close this bloody thread.

  If you don't like it, don't read it. 
Why should the rest of us not get to read it just because somebody else doesn't want to? 
Cheers, Jack

----------


## Groggy

> Why should the rest of us not get to read it just because somebody else doesn't want to?

  Jack, if the thread is closed you can still read it, you just can't post to it anymore.

----------


## Jack E

Fair enough then. 
I still don't think it or any thread should be locked. As long as people want to contribute to a thread they should be able to. Barring personal attacks, etc, delete them and leave the thread be.
Perhaps I should have said "why should people not be able to contribute to a thread just because one person doesn't want to"
Sorry mate but it really gets me going when people ask for threads to be closed. It is the world wide web, over 5 billion people in the world with many differing opinions, you might not like some of them (the people or the opinions :Smilie:  ), but you should let them have their say. 
Plus I like to watch a good stouch every now and then :Biggrin:   
Somebody said that that the misleading posts should be deleted. 
This may get the mods in more trouble because it could imply that any info left in the thread would be correct. 
I agree that maybe electrical info should be banned, but then where do you draw the line on unqualified information. 
By the way, I am an electrician, and will not give out electrical installation advice. 
Cheers, Jack

----------


## outback

Let me address your concerns Jack. 
I don't usually like locking threads neither, it usually happens just as it gets interesting. 
I'm struggling contributing anything lately without a tut tut from someone in authority. 
I really agree about deleting the misleading stuff, that really opens up Pandora's box. :eek: 
ANyway, if I don't keep checking back I might miss something, and I couldn't stand that. 
I just reckon this thing is getting boring, if it gets locked I don't need to be paranoid.

----------


## ozwinner

> I can't believe I'm gonna say this. 
> Robbo hang on tight, Groggy check yer boots.  
> but someone, PLEASE close this bloody thread.

  I couldnt agree more. 
Are well all done here, Boban, Adrian?  
Al :confused:

----------


## boban

Im done Al, but I still cant see the reason to close it.  There is no personal attack, no offensive topic, just robust discussion.  
But its not up to me and I'll respect the moderator's right to do as they feel appropriate. 
Surely Adrian will provide us with some more relevant info that hasn't been spoonfed to us. 
Barry- I dont think it is about whether his mixed circuit at home is illegal (it probably is) but rather whether your post and the 2 that followed from Dan and Ashore are dangerous to the DIY guy contemplating doing it himself.  That was what I responded to, that post of Adrian's that Robbo highlighted where Adrian reckons it was dangerous.   
I guess we can always talk about more interesting topics like.................................            
my new Domino

----------


## ozwinner

I dont like closing threads one bit. 
Hopefully this one will die a quick death with everyone having had their say. 
Al  :Smilie:

----------


## Cliff Rogers

> ...my new Domino

  Is it dangerous?  :Wink:

----------


## boban

> Is it dangerous?

  You want to get me banned Cliff?  :Biggrin:

----------


## Barry_White

> Barry- I dont think it is about whether his mixed circuit at home is illegal (it probably is) but rather whether your post and the 2 that followed from Dan and Ashore are dangerous to the DIY guy contemplating doing it himself. That was what I responded to, that post of Adrian's that Robbo highlighted where Adrian reckons it was dangerous.  
> I guess we can always talk about more interesting topics 
> like................................. 
> my new Domino

  Like I said it wasn't advice or a recommendation only what AS3000 states. As far as that is concerned any one can go and buy AS3000.  
As DIY'ers will do it anyway if they have decided to do whether it was legal or not. If they did go and purchase AS 3000 there would possibly be many less faults out there done by DIY'ers. 
The trouble is they are doing the job on the cheap so they aren't going to fork out for AS3000 because it isn't cheap in itself. 
Like you said there are many more interesting subjects to talk about 
like .............   
Pen Turning, my new addiction.

----------


## Barry_White

> Is it dangerous?

  All things can be dangerous if not used or done properly but some people live on the edge all the time.

----------


## coastie

Anybody here give me some clues as to how to wire up a three pin plug? :Biggrin:

----------


## DavidG

> Anybody here give me some clues as to how to wire up a three pin plug?

  Not like I saw on a home made extension lead.
The outer and all three inner insulations cut back at the same position and three bare wires randomly inserted in the screw holes.:eek:

----------


## Cliff Rogers

> You want to get me banned Cliff?

   
Nuh, go on.... tell us about the new Domino.  :Biggrin:

----------


## Robbo

> Not like I saw on a home made extension lead.
> The outer and all three inner insulations cut back at the same position and three bare wires randomly inserted in the screw holes.:eek:

  Did it work or go FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT and the smoke escape? :Wink:

----------


## DavidG

> Did it work or go FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT and the smoke escape?

  FFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTT and took the fuse out.
Then I became involved when he asked, what was wrong.
I nearly died of shock at the sight of it.
I applied a set of side cutters to the problem and told the guy to go and buy some new leads. 
Some people should NEVER touch electricity and he was one of them.

----------


## Ashore

Was at a camping ground about 5 years ago with a group of ulysses bikers and one bloke had made his own trailor, and had wired the fridge in by fitting it to a normel power point( Female)  to the side of the trailor and then made an extension lead with a male 3 pin at each end :eek: 
He couldn't see anything wrong with this as the power point was way cheaper than a fixed male one, and he always connected it to the trailor first:eek:

----------


## Stuart

But how did he plug the fridge into the other end?

----------


## Ashore

He wired the fridge into the back of the socker on the trailor then pluged it into the camp site 240 v supplied power with his double male extension

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

Their moto is grow old disgracefully isn't it? Not grow old stupidly.

----------


## bennylaird

I've decided it's time to sort out birthcontrol but I understand it's just a simple snip so might have a go at it myself. I have seen similar work done but just uncertain about the knot to use. I'll do the right thing and have it checked out by a licenced surgeon but as I have the tools then I can save a few dollars. After all it's not brain surgury? 
Can anyone help with this? Perhaps a simple drawing? I assume it's all on the same circuit but is this the case?  Thanks in anticipation.

----------


## bennylaird

Thanks Felixe, good advice, just need to know if the I have to have the tongs the right way round as I would hate to reverse my polarity?

----------


## Cliff Rogers

I think Benny has lost his marbles.... or is about to.  :Tongue:

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

> I've decided it's time to sort out birthcontrol but I understand it's just a simple snip so might have a go at it myself. I have seen similar work done but just uncertain about the knot to use. I'll do the right thing and have it checked out by a licenced surgeon but as I have the tools then I can save a few dollars. After all it's not brain surgury? 
> Can anyone help with this? Perhaps a simple drawing? I assume it's all on the same circuit but is this the case? Thanks in anticipation.

  
Benny, I was going to post a similar thtread about bomb defusing.
I wanted to attach a Michael Leunig cartoon Bomb Defusing 101- Prac Exam but couldn't find the cartoon. :Frown:   
Anyone got a copy?.

----------


## Cliff Rogers

> ...bomb defusing.
> ...couldn't find the cartoon. 
> Anyone got a copy?.

  How about this one.  :Biggrin:

----------


## bennylaird

> Benny, I was going to post a similar thtread about bomb defusing.
> I wanted to attach a Michael Leunig cartoon Bomb Defusing 101- Prac Exam but couldn't find the cartoon.  
> Anyone got a copy?.

   
Both are fairly similar as they deal with defusing, and why not have a go at doing it yourself, can't hurt? :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

----------


## MurrayD99

Is this, yet, a Forum Hall of Fame thread?  For diversity, angst, sarcasm, participation, international input, needling, casual concern for safety, bitterness, locked, unlocked, officially and unofficially, long life, humour and technical education of the unwashed.  Got to be a 9!  It might have been a 10 but nobody, so far, excusez-moi if I missed it, has mentioned taking supply off the overhead lines with alligator clips in a rainstorm....

----------


## bennylaird

Can you do that?:confused: :confused:  What size clips work best and should I wear rubber shoes?:confused: :confused:    :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

----------


## MurrayD99

Well, this'd get us the 10 wouldn't it?  Those little guys you get from DSE would be hard to solder onto a decent cable.  I guess the simplest way would be to get some of those jump leads, get a few pairs and link'em up, should be OK.  If it'll start a tractor engine it should take 11KVA.  Being as how it is raining, you probably already wearing gumboots - perfectly safe.  Tape them down where they go under the front door so you don't trip over them.    Oh, you could always padlock (hint) the front door.

----------


## bennylaird

I think the Clint Eastwood line suits this thread nicely. 
"A mans gotta know his limitations". 
Use common sense and don't let it bite you.

----------


## LeftyJim

I'm a bit late in responding to this thread, but anyway... 
An interesting statistic that is apparent in the electrical accident numbers posted earlier is the small number of electrocutions in New Zealand compared to Australia. This in itself doesn't mean much, except when you know that New Zealand permits householders to perform their own wiring with limitations, and that they share our wiring rules: AS/NZS 3000 
My understanding (jump in if I get this wrong) is that Kiwis can install new main runs as long as they don't connect it up at the fusepanel end.  Additional power points and lights and switches can be added to existing circuits, observing power limits.   
After doing any of these tasks, a licenced sparky is called in to check/hook up at the fusepanel.  Wiring information is freely available, and I think you can even take courses in household wiring. 
This really knocks the teeth out of the argument that there would be chaos if householders were allowed to perform home wiring.  It's all in the information and advice that is available.   
If you could obtain good guides on how home wiring should be done, and then have a licenced sparky check it over afterwards at a nominal fee, I think there would be a lot less dodgy home wiring going on.

----------


## chrisp

Hallelujah - At least someone has seen the light!

----------


## bennylaird

Most agree that the most important bit is the inspection by a qualified sparkie.

----------


## MurrayD99

Please Sir, can we go now?

----------


## Felder

CLASS DISMISSED!

----------


## chrisp

> This really knocks the teeth out of the argument that there would be chaos if householders were allowed to perform home wiring.  It's all in the information and advice that is available.

   

> Most agree that the most important bit is the inspection by a qualified sparkie.

  Benny, 
You can read it that way if you wish, but I think BigJim pointed out it is the availability of information and courses.  Other countries allow wiring without checking (NZ for extra GPOs on an existing circuit?) by a qualified electrician and they seem to be electrocuting less people than we do.  They have the information available - for example Americans can buy books and DVDs that show how to wire safely.  [The Australian standards and techniques are different so this information is not applicable here.] 
Here we seem to go all wobbly at the knees when it comes to electrical wiring and our overly restrictive regulations.  I think it is about time we joined the rest of the world - the Australian way isn't _always_ the best way :Smilie:

----------


## felixe

> Thanks Felixe, good advice, just need to know if the I have to have the tongs the right way round as I would hate to reverse my polarity?

  Benny hasn't lost his marbles, I removed my post:eek:   it was rude and I thought I would get cained by Neil!!!:eek:  :Biggrin:   (Something about hot tongs!!)

----------


## Barry_White

> but nobody, so far, excusez-moi if I missed it, has mentioned taking supply off the overhead lines with alligator clips in a rainstorm....

  I have seen Electricity Company linesmen boil their smoko billy with an immersion element with wires connected to a couple of hooks hung on the overhead wires. But I will admit certainly not in the rain. In fact I have never seen them work in the rain.....  
NO I TELL A LIE. I have seen them work in the rain during a rain storm up here where they climbed up the pole on a ladder to push the arm transformer fuses back in after they were blown out by a lightening strike only to have them blown out again while he was climbing down the ladder, so he had to repeat the exercise again.

----------


## Pulse

BigJim, great post, the point many have tried to make, Kudos to you! 
As I said the problem is the cultural shift to get the sparkies to agree! 
Pulse

----------


## Gra

> After all it's not brain surgury?

  Some people may argue this :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

----------


## Malibu

> As I said the problem is the cultural shift to get the sparkies to agree!

  This has turned out to be a great discussion!
I wonder if the OCEI has got wind of it and is ready to add an official word on the matter? 
Now to toss a bit more fuel on the fire;
It's not a matter of a cultural shift or us sparkies agreeing. I for one don't care if people do thier own wiring (but if I'm asked, I will recommend to get an electrician and I won't tell how to do it), but the law is the law, and the law says you need an 'A' grade licence for installation work (and a contractors ticket if you want to get paid).
It's a great idea that people 'rough in' the wiring, do all the leg work and etc with a sparky doing the fit-off. As the systems stands at the moment (in Victoria, anyway) if I sign a Certificate of Electrical Safety after someone else roughs in, I'm responsible for that job. 
Let's say it's an underground cable. Joe Bloggs digs the trench to 300mm, runs the grey pipe, and forgets to use glue. He backfills and I come and fit it all off. I sign the ticket and then promptly get reamed by the OCEI for doing sub-standard work. If someone is killed because they drive a crowbar into a live underground that's too shallow, it's my neck in the noose. 'Negligent man slaughter' is the correct term and I can't afford a barrister to get me out of the deep pile of dung I'd be in.
Most sparkies would cringe at the idea that might happen. We have to work with the rules that are given to us and the only one that can change that fact is the chief electrical inspector. 
Soap box is packed away again  :Smilie:

----------


## boban

> It's a great idea that people 'rough in' the wiring, do all the leg work and etc with a sparky doing the fit-off. As the systems stands at the moment (in Victoria, anyway) if I sign a Certificate of Electrical Safety after someone else roughs in, I'm responsible for that job.

  We had this discussion in another thread, but even that is illegal without the sparky watching over your shoulder.  That's the stupidity of it all. 
No one should/would expect you to sign off on the underground stuff in the situation you described, but I dont think that most people in favour of a degree of DIY legal capacity would advocate such a situation.  But if the guy left open the 600mm deep trench complete with the orange HD conduit for you to inspect, you wouldn't have a problem with that would you? 
I think I made myself clear as to what I think should be allowed.  I dont want to see anyone get hurt, but my argument will alway be that an open discussion of the AS is not a dangerous thing.   
This enables people to do the rough in properly.  Roughing in is not a dangerous activity and one not particular enjoyed by sparkies.  You can have your box back now. 
Funny how such a boring thread has had so much interest :Tongue:

----------


## stolar

i cannot believe it has been over 12 hours without opinion (new, repeated or otherwise) on this ! :confused:  :Rolleyes:  
C'mon people you can do better then that!  :Wink:   
This is the thread where sparks shoudl continue to fly (pun intended !)  :Tongue: 
It has created such a "tension" and "current" of ideas (and other matter i might add).    
Maybe it is becasue it is such a simple matter, electricity. 
There are only two possible faults in any electical circuit. You either have a connection where you shouldn't have or you don't have one where you should have it. Simple really, don't know what is all the fuss about!  :Tongue:   :Rolleyes:

----------


## MurrayD99

> ........... expect you to sign off on the underground stuff in the situation you described..... 
> Funny how such a boring thread has had so much interest

  Well!  This opens Act II.  All this time we have been thinking about overhead lines and wires running through ceilings.  Underground!  This is a new dimension.  I didn't know you could pipe electricity that way.  How would you go about tapping into an underground pipe full of electrons, neurons... whatever.  Can't see the alligator clips being a lot of use here.  Can we have a subversive bit of DIY advice on how one might approach this sort of project and what would be best practice and what would be on the fringe of dodgy?  Oh ho.  We will still be here Friday.

----------


## thatirwinfella

> NO I TELL A LIE. I have seen them work in the rain during a rain storm up here where they climbed up the pole on a ladder to push the arm transformer fuses back in after they were blown out by a lightening strike only to have them blown out again while he was climbing down the ladder, so he had to repeat the exercise again.

  thats fault finding powercor style. keep throwing in bigger fuses until it goes bang somewhere else, keep doing this till it stops and the fault will either disappear or become someone elses problem

----------


## Malibu

Speaking of going bang, a funny thing happened to me at the office today...
A breakdown on one of the machines that uses a buss-bar system. No problems, I get to it after a few other breakdowns and go to move the part of the machine that was the problem.
**BANG!**
Sparks fly after a 315A fuse pops from a dead short over 415V. Ok, that's cool, so I switch off the mains and figure I'll have to fix it on the spot.
First things first, time for some relief and I head off to the toilet block.
I'm halfway back to the job and there's black smoke billowing up from the machine and flames reaching over the control board...
Holy blazes!!!
I take off like it was home time, because there's no-one else within 100 yards of it and rip a fire extinguisher off the wall running full speed. 
By this stage, there's flames up around the top of the buss-bars (5 meters high) and black smoke from the burning foam filing the factory. I couldn't get the pin out of the F/E without fumbling my fingers and getting a gash in my thumb to prove it.
By this stage, I'm getting close to copping a lung-full of rubber filled smoke so I hit the fire and fortunately, out it goes pretty quick.
By now, the side of the factory where I was working was getting pretty full up with smoke, but now I'm getting fire extinguisher fumes thrown into the mixture as well. By now, there's a few people around who open doors, etc and out I go into the fresh air for a splutter and a spit...
Ever get those days when you think, "Shoulda stayed home!"?  :Frown:  
By the way, this has nothing to do with home wiring... I just thought it might be an entertaining story at my expense  :Smilie:

----------


## outback

Now, if an untrained home wirer had done the job, all would be well, that's the trouble with pro - fessionals

----------


## silentC

> With due respect Silent, I don't think that is the argument, the argument that the electrical authorities make is that the regulations needed for the safety of the public hence their strict restrictions on who can obtain a wiring license. The statistics that pharmaboy2 has produced shows this not to be the case. Yes, by all means be cautious of statistics, but if you don't believe them perhaps you can find some alternative figures. I think in reality the death rate from electrocution is very small and you will have to look very hard to find an actual death from faulty wiring rather than unsafe work practice (for example, working on live circuits) or by inadvertently coming in contact with overhead lines.

  There are two observations to make here. One is that it is obviously possible, even probable, that the 'true' intention of the legislation is to create a closed shop. I don't know and you probably don't either. It's just speculation, much as we all love a good conspiracy theory. 
The second is that even though the stats may show that our record on safety isn't a great one, it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver. 
I know fools will be fools and, with luck, they will eliminate themselves from the gene pool, it's the innocent ones who inherit or buy the dodgily wired house that I worry about. 
Some sort of course and a test would be good, if it was implemented properly. I also think that there should be nothing wrong with doing part of the job yourself under the guidance of a licensed person. It should be up to them to ensure that you are doing the right thing and to check it. At the end of the day, no one will ever know if your sparky is happy to sign off on work you have done. It's his backside on the line. I'm much more comfortable with that than taking away the requirement for a licensed contractor.

----------


## MurrayD99

> There are two observations to make here. One is that it is obviously possible, even probable, that the 'true' intention of the legislation is to create a closed shop. I don't know and you probably don't either. It's just speculation, much as we all love a good conspiracy theory. 
> The second is that even though the stats may show that our record on safety isn't a great one, it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver. 
> I know fools will be fools and, with luck, they will eliminate themselves from the gene pool, it's the innocent ones who inherit or buy the dodgily wired house that I worry about. 
> Some sort of course and a test would be good, if it was implemented properly. I also think that there should be nothing wrong with doing part of the job yourself under the guidance of a licensed person. It should be up to them to ensure that you are doing the right thing and to check it. At the end of the day, no one will ever know if your sparky is happy to sign off on work you have done. It's his backside on the line. I'm much more comfortable with that than taking away the requirement for a licensed contractor.

  Not wishing to divert this thread, Mr C, I think it is a bit similar to what they are doing here with herbicides and insecticides - you got to get a licence to "handle" them before you can buy the more useful varieties.  It is no big deal.  Now if you could demonstrate prior skills (still alive and kicking) with big alligator clips and a red screwdriver....  and could explain this potential difference thing, why not?  Oh no.  I swore off this....  Class is out - Yes Sir!  We done gone....

----------


## outback

I can explain the potential difference thing...No seriously I can.  
I saw this a while ago, Silents comment reminded me of it. 
"I'm not saying that there should be capital punishment for stupidity, just that we should take the safety warnings off things and let nature take its course."

----------


## MurrayD99

> I can explain the potential difference thing...No seriously I can.    I saw this a while ago, Silents comment reminded me of it.  "I'm not saying that there should be capital punishment for stupidity, just that we should take the safety warnings off things and let nature take its course."

  Ahhhh...  Mr Outback, you been away a while?   Is this related to the concept that the Highway Patrol is interfering with natural selection?  I think, on balance, it probably is.  Is this esoteric, v the 11KVA thread?  No. I think not. Wo ist Benny? Got a view here?  Is the term not yet ended?

----------


## pharmaboy2

> it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.

  Its a bit like trying to prove a null hypothesis - it cant be done, you can only disprove a positive one - while its perfectly legitimate to use logic to expect that more rules equal greater safety, when the information to support the case shows the opposite, you need to examine the logic of the assumption.   
Taking away the restrictions probably wont improve safety (although its possible they could), so youre right, it doesnt necessarily follow, but I'm not sure if anyones claimed that withdrawing all restrictions will reduce the electrocution rate - it just seems that prima facie, the restrictions have offered us no advantage for safety compared to our peers (similarly the US gets no benefit from their 110v experiment - the extra current more than makes up for the voltage, particularly in house fires). 
The classic example in this thread (the one you couldnt kill with a stick), is that even running your own cables for the sparky to connect and check is illegal - LOL that ones funny, especially considering you can change an appliance plug!   dont we all love beaurocracy!

----------


## bennylaird

> Ahhhh...  Mr Outback, you been away a while?   Is this related to the concept that the Highway Patrol is interfering with natural selection?  I think, on balance, it probably is.  Is this esoteric, v the 11KVA thread?  No. I think not. Wo ist Benny? Got a view here?  Is the term not yet ended?

  Just observing, have put forward my point of view, argue all we like but there are some diyers out there who need to wake up before their woken up by an example of  V=IR. Common sense rules and some missed out on that issue in the gene pool.  
Anyway this is a friday thread alternative :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

----------


## Honorary Bloke

> (similarly the US gets no benefit from their 110v experiment - the extra current more than makes up for the voltage, particularly in house fires).

  I agree that we get no particular benefit, but I would hardly class it as an experiment at this stage. We couldn't change now if we wanted to--too expensive. :eek:  
Benny, glad to see you back in the fray.  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

----------


## bennylaird

WE have a vacancy at the moment for a self motivated diyer to experiment with some wiring. It's the Pommy cricket team, I think they need a bit of a rewire and a surge of current? Any ideas as everything else has failed?

----------


## chrisp

> There are two observations to make here. One is that it is obviously possible, even probable, that the 'true' intention of the legislation is to create a closed shop. I don't know and you probably don't either. It's just speculation, much as we all love a good conspiracy theory.

  I suspect we do know why the legislation is the way it is - to keep a closed shop :Smilie:   
I base my suspicion on a email and telephone conversation I've had with the Victorian OCEI sometime ago.  I wanted to see if I could get a license that would allow me to legally do wiring at my own home.  [I'm talking fairly basic stuff here and I do not have any intention of replacing anytime prior to the switchboard.].  I emailed the OCEI to inquire about an "occupier's license" [which is a license intended for engineers that would allow them to do work only on their own residence].  I'm an electrical engineer and work as a electrical engineer so I've got a bit of an idea about electricity.  I'm happy to do any reasonable training and course work required to get an occupier's license so I asked what was required.  I received an answer by telephone and it was a bit like a conversation out of "Yes, Minister!".  It seemed that I'd need to sit the appropriate exams on AS3000 (no real drama there) and I'd also have to do 80 hours supervised work with an licensed electrician (no problem at my end).  Okay, so far sounds promising, then came the "But".  I cannot recall the details exactly, but to do the supervised work I'd have to have an S-permit (okay, no problem) and then I'd have to have a supervised workers license  but to get a supervised workers license I'd have to be formally employed an an apprentice.  The exact conversation is hazy, but the bottom line was that the only way to get a license is via an apprenticeship - there was no other way. 
I know there are some here how would argue that it would take four years to learn the practical aspects of the trade, just like it took me four years to become an engineer.  But if I fronted up to an engineering course and I'd already done a similar course, most institutes would allow exemptions on the common material covered in the different courses.  I think I should be allowed to meet the the electrical wiring license requirements in less than 4 years. 
Also, it doesn't seem reasonable that overseas qualified electricians need to do a whole 4-years again to meet Australian regulations. 
The workforce is now fairly dynamic.  Not only do people change jobs more often, they also change careers.  The trades should be open for older people to take up later in life.   

> The second is that even though the stats may show that our record on safety isn't a great one, it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.

  I accept your point to a degree.  *My issue is that safety is used to justify the closed shop regulations.*  Judging by some of the responses in this thread the safety propaganda machine is doing a very good job! 
I'm not proposing a free-for-all in regard to wiring.  I think if someone can demonstrate the required knowledge of the regulations and practical skills required, why can't they obtain a license? 
I'd like to see the the regulations changed, but how does one go about it?  [I doubt it would do any good talking to the OCEI - it'd be like complaining about a real estate agent to the REIV!].  Does anyone have experience with having regulations changed? 
Chris 
[And who are those people chatting in the background of this thread:confused:]

----------


## silentC

> I think if someone can demonstrate the required knowledge of the regulations and practical skills required, why can't they obtain a license?

  I agree with that. I think you should be able to. If it was available, I would have done it myself years ago. Same with plumbing. If you can demonstrate that you know what you are doing, you should be able to get a permit or a license for your own domestic work. 
It does open up some problem areas though. I'll repeat what I said earlier about the owner builder course that I did. There is no way on Earth that one of those courses gives you the knowledge you need to build a house. You learn just enough to pass the multiple choice test and get the rubber stamp. I'd shudder to think that anyone who does one of those courses and having had no prior exposure to building would walk away thinking they are equipped to build a house. They still rely upon inspections to make sure things have been done correctly. The whole OB thing was just concocted so that there would be a legal scapegoat when shoddy work is done. The whole thing is half-arsed and it doesn't necessarily improve the quality of the work at all. 
If there are people who cannot intuitively wire up a new power point or light without having to ask how to do it, what hope do they have of learning enough to wire up their house in any kind of course. The benefit of the apprenticeship programme is that they get on the job experience with a qualified person showing them how it should be done and smacking them over the head when they get it wrong. Some people learn well from books and others need to have the information belted into them. 
They could make the test really difficult and have some practical elements to it. That might help. But then how much do you really need to know to wire up a few points? Do you have different levels of permit, or make everyone go the whole hog? 
Do they have that sort of system in the UK/US or is it just open slather for home owners?

----------


## Malibu

I'm pretty much in agreement with you for the most part Chris, but I'm not sure about the OCEI manipulating the scenario and licence structure to make it a "closed shop". (That sounds more like a union related issue to me)
I think the OCEI takes the stance that there must be a cut-off point somewhere and so they basicaly put forth that only an A-grade can do such-and-such work, and the only way to get an A-grade is through an apprenticeship to cover any grey areas that might arise. 
A good call to get the regulations changed, but good luck in doing it! I for one would prefer to see the licencing system split into a different classs structure...
1) Industrial
2) Public domestic/commercial
3) Private home installation 
There's massive differences in industrial and domestic wiring, and I've worked with contractors who are wizzes in domestic, but fail badly in industry and vice-versa. I for one struggle putting power points in because it's not my usual work (Happily, I don't do many outlets...!). Give me a complex 3 phase machine with inverter drives and plc/computer control and I'll breeze through the majority of work on it. It's all in the training and the practice.
When I did my apprenticeship and sat the prac exam, I struggled with the board job (from memory, a gpo, a light and a 2 way circuit) while others creamed it in with time to spare. When it came to the face-plate starter and the motor control part of the exam, I was first out the door while the domestic faction were scratching their heads. 
As another example for license enigmas... My ticket allows me to work on live equipment up to 1kV (I think it's 1Kv, but it might still be at 600V) but I can't wire up a telephone circuit because I'm not Austel licenced. I'm also  unable to contract out, earn any extra cash from my profession or help a mate with his house wiring for a slab. "Not authorised to contract for profit or reward" is the fine print. So, I'm limited in work in my chosen profession and legally, can only do electrical work for the company I'm working for. 
Yes, the licence system needs a shake-up, but I'm not sure how best to do it.

----------


## Vernonv

Hi Malibu,
What is the idea behind them not letting you contract out:confused: .  
Is that part of your license, or your employment contract?

----------


## chrisp

Vernonv, 
I could be wrong, but in Victoria not only do you have to have a trade certificate (such as an "A-grade" license), to charge money for your (electrical) trade you also have to be a R.E.C. (Registered Electrical Contractor). 
You don't have to have a R.E.C. if you work for someone else. 
Chris

----------


## journeyman Mick

> Vernonv, 
> I could be wrong, but in Victoria not only do you have to have a trade certificate (such as an "A-grade" license), to charge money for your (electrical) trade you also have to be a R.E.C. (Registered Electrical Contractor). 
> You don't have to have a R.E.C. if you work for someone else. 
> Chris

  
Same as in Qld as far as I know. 
Mick

----------


## Malibu

You're right Chris, it's an A-grade first, then sit for a contractors ticket. From what I can gather, the REC course is 90% business studies/paper work and the remainder is electricaly related.
I don't know the reason behind the concept, but there's a few possabilities:
- The closed shop theory
- A money spinner for the OCEI
     (A-grade costs are $130 for 5 years, not sure about an REC, but probably more)
- Control and regulation of contractors
I suspect the later, but at the end of the day, we all have to put in the same certificate of complience, it's just that a contractor has another number to add to the system. 
Coincidentaly, my Energy Safe magazine landed today. There were 6 prosecutions over the last month.
1 company for dodgy work
1 inspector for passing dodgy work
4 unlicenced people doing work and/or installing faulty equipment.
One of the fines was $13,000...  
Total of prosecutions this year is up to 68

----------


## Barry_White

> Hi Malibu,
> What is the idea behind them not letting you contract out:confused: .  
> Is that part of your license, or your employment contract?

  Things may have changed here in NSW but a few years ago a licenced electricion or an electrical engineer or any one with an electrical training background could wire their own home and bear in mind back then every electrical job had to have a ready for test put into the local county council and no work could be connected to the supply until an inspector came out to authorise the electrical work.  
Although all work has to be submitted to the local electrical authority it does not mean they will inspect every job now. They usually inspect jobs at random to make checks on the various contractors and if it is not up to standard he will get a defect and the more defects he gets the more inspections he will get at the risk of losing his contractors licence but the Electrical Contractor has the authority to connect the work to the supply. 
Licenced electritions, engineers etc. can not hire themselves out without having a a Electrical Contractors Licence which is separate from being a licenced electrition who can only do work for an Electrical Contractor or for a company that has an Electrical Contractor in their employ. 
Like most trades now they have to earn a 100 points each year by doing followup courses and trade nights etc. or their licence is on the line. 
This point system has just been introduced for fridge mechanics and air conditioning contractors and has been in place for quiet some time for licenced builders and I dare say for plumbers and gas fitters as well

----------


## Dan

I think the contracting ticket carries with it a fairly bit chunk of liability insurance. 
Anyone wishing to know more about the standards would be better off getting hold of AS/NZS 3018:2001 "Electrical Installations-Domestic Installations". AS/NZS3000:2000 is a lot harder to get a concrete answer from since its review IMO.

----------


## Sturdee

> I'd like to see the the regulations changed, but how does one go about it?

  
As these regulations have been issued by the responsible Minister under an Act of Parliament the way to change it is very simple indeeed.  
Just convince your local member that they ought to change the regulations and then have him/her convince the government party that they ought to be changed.   
Then the responsible minister will widely consult all sections of the community that may be affected by the change and may be he will instruct the parliamentary draftsmen to rewrite the regulations which he may approve. 
If he does it will become law else it is back to the beginning of this thread. Rather elementary really but this process could take a lifetime of lobbying. :Biggrin:    
Peter.

----------


## thatirwinfella

that REC thing is probably to keep track of everyone. it's pretty hard to keep tabs on a guy with a van and a mobile phone if he doesn't want to be found.  
they're also supposed to have $1 million [i think] in liability insurance 
there is also apparently some loop with the rec ticket, you don't have to be a sparky to get it. eg, your gran can get the contracting licence for the business which comprises solely of you [and her i guess.]  
thats how most industrial places go about it though, the contracting ticket is in the company or the owners name, rather than that of a sparky. 
there is also [again, apparently, it has come up in discussion at work] a provision for licenced sparkies to do work without a contractor's ticket but the income is limited. it is intended for those who do mate's houses and such.

----------


## pedro the swift

Well, didnt this open a can of worms. 
I have just one question for any sparkies here(as a sparkie myself).
Why is is it that every time I open up a power point or light fitting there is NEVER enought slack cable to easily remake a connection or add another.
Surely it doesnt add any more cost to allow a few extra inches(mm) of cable to allow for future reconnection/additions.
Working in the industrial scene as I do we always allow enough spare cable to remake connections.
Its aways a pain to have to struggle to make power point connections with an inch of slack hanging out of the wall or light fitting and wondering if the wire is going to break off and leave you with no connection at all. And by th eway I positively detest single core wiring. Give me stranded stuff any time. 
Cheers

----------


## DavidG

pedro the swift
I agree. 
When our place was built there was heaps of spare wire sticking out the wall and along came the sparkie and cut most off before mounting the sockets. ????? 
I am not a sparkie but a tech officer from electronics.
Was legally allowed to do any mains wiring at work but not at home??????

----------


## Ashore

> Why is is it that every time I open up a power point or light fitting there is NEVER enought slack cable to easily remake a connection or add another.
> Cheers

  Couldn't agree more its a real PITA :mad:

----------


## silentC

There's probably one power point in the house that has all the slack. The sparky has gone around doing his fitout with a nice bit of slack at each point, but as he does the next one in the chain, he yanks on the cable a bit to get more slack and so on. The last one he did has all the slack  :Wink:  
Actually, it can be a real pain to install a point if there's too much slack because you have to shove half a metre of cable into the cavity as well, especially if there's a loop or two as well. Not that I've ever tried it myself you understand  :Shock:

----------


## Malibu

> Working in the industrial scene as I do we always allow enough spare cable to remake connections.
> Its aways a pain to have to struggle to make power point connections with an inch of slack hanging out of the wall or light fitting and wondering if the wire is going to break off and leave you with no connection at all. And by th eway I positively detest single core wiring. Give me stranded stuff any time.

  I'm with you Pedro. Somewhere along the way in industrial, there's enough slack in the wiring for re-terminations.
Naturally, I wired my house and made sure all the GPO's (all 67 of them) had about 400mm slack in the wall for future hassle-free mods.  :Smilie: 
As far as single core goes, I'm in the "detest it" boat as well. I'm surprised that it's still made because of the poor workability.

----------


## Barry_White

> Well, didn't this open a can of worms. 
> I have just one question for any sparky's here(as a sparky myself).
> Why is is it that every time I open up a power point or light fitting there is NEVER enough slack cable to easily remake a connection or add another.
> Surely it doesn't add any more cost to allow a few extra inches(mm) of cable to allow for future reconnection/additions.
> Working in the industrial scene as I do we always allow enough spare cable to remake connections.
> Its aways a pain to have to struggle to make power point connections with an inch of slack hanging out of the wall or light fitting and wondering if the wire is going to break off and leave you with no connection at all. And by the way I positively detest single core wiring. Give me stranded stuff any time. 
> Cheers

  That's interesting Pedro my business partner the electrical contractor always with out fail would put a loop of slack at every point in an installation as well as in the back of the switch board. His argument was that you never know when you will have to come back and extend an installation.  
The newer cable today has thinner white thermoplastic on it and is much easier to push it back into the wall.  
When I built my house because it was steel frame the council made me put those black plastic shrouds on the back of all GPO's and switch plates and I had one six gang switch plate which included 3 x 2way switches as well as the 3 single switches in it and I had the lights wired in 1.5mm2 cable and with the old white thermoplastic in the double insulation. It really caused me some angst in getting it back into the wall. That was 12 individual cables going into the back of the shroud and into the switch mechanisms

----------


## journeyman Mick

Pedro,
sparky mate told me how the bloke he did his time under used to work out exactly how much cable was required for each run and then cut it slightly shorter:eek: . The blokes were supposed to somehow make it reach, all to save a few cents in copper. Domestic work is usually pretty tight, profit-wise so sparkys do tend to leave really short tails. Working on commercial it's a different story, I took home enough long off cuts to rewire a transportable building. 
Mick

----------


## Border boy

Hey people, check out the ads at the top of the page, this is how it all started!! Great thread by the way.
Cheers!!

----------


## MurrayD99

> Hey people, check out the ads at the top of the page, this is how it all started!! Great thread by the way.
> Cheers!!

  
How did that happen?  Is someone watching?  I knew the disclaimers would be a bit dodgy. 
Jeeez......  wirecutters, alligator clips, screwdriver.... merlot, empty cans.... woaaaa! 
Gone! :Biggrin:

----------


## Honorary Bloke

Is this the Friday thread in some alternate universe? :confused:

----------


## MurrayD99

I see the electrical ads disappeared already.... they must have figured out that the contributors were all deranged - not likely customers for structured cabling design etc...  Oh, we are mortally wounded by this!

----------


## ColinRalph

My sister is buried at Mt Gravat, her boyfriend did her wiring.
Get an electrician if you do not know how to do. it it is too late when someone is dead

----------


## TassieKiwi

Sorry to hear that mate.

----------

