# Forum More Stuff Owner Builders Forum  Employing casual labour to do work

## mattwilliams78

Hi all, 
I just wondered what the legal position on the following might be; 
- Have submitted and had approved a DA for a pool and garage extension to my house
- Arch Designer drew everything and submitted, he estimated value of job. I engaged a PCA for inspections.
- Pool subbie was engaged to do the pool, used his licence number to get the job going. Talking through the whole job and his capabilities/interest in doing pool and extension, I asked him to increase the value of the homeowners warranty to cover the whole job and he agreed to.
- Half way through pool, it became clear that the pool builder didn't really want to do the concrete slab for the garage using his conc subbie (why would he when he's belting out pools every day?!) so we agreed that I would find and engage a concreter, which I did. There were some hiccups, as is often the case but I dealt with them and got the engineer and PCA to inspect and sign everything off and its all done ok. Everyone is happy so far.
- Continuing on that vein, I have now engaged a blockworker to do the garage walls. Again, licenced and insured subbie and, because I bought the materials, under $5k in labour. I think there is another PCA inspection at the end classed as 'framing'.
- Finding myself in a sort of quasi owner-builder situation now, I feel more than comfortable to frame up and sheet the roof over the garage myself rather than engage a carpenter to finish off. This would probably be fine if I just asked a mate to come around help me out but I don't really have the right friends or family that i could ask that of. Also, I'm co-incidentally off work for a few months so I could probably knock it out in a week or two during the weekdays when mates are at work. Again, the PCA would inspect at the end of that stage and sign it off. 
My question is - what is the legal position of employing a casual labourer to climb a ladder and hold the other end of the timbers for me while I get around nailing it etc. I see posts all of the time on facebook of my local tradies putting the call out for labourers to help them out casually to finish jobs when they are busy. If the labourer fell off a ladder, what would my home insurer say? would the labourer have their own insurances if they were self employed? Maybe I should employ one of those home handymen for $60/hour instead of $30/hour and just offer to help them out? They surely have their own insurances. 
When I was a kid, locals would pay teenagers like me for this kind of stuff for beer money and everything was fine but the world is a very different place now I guess.

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## pharmaboy2

if  someone gets hurt it's probably a good idea to describe them as a "visitor", and make sure they understand that as well.  That is in both your interests.  Never describe them as a worker unless you are absolutely certain of your legal standing, in NSW for instance if you pay more than $7500 in a year for hired help you need workers comp insurance, but visitors are covered under public liability insurance

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## johnc

If you employ someone on sub contract rates who normally either doesn't work or works for wages elsewhere then if there is an accident you are liable and the better insurance will be Workcover. You can register and there may be a charge but as you are dealing with ladders probably worth the cost if any. f you employ say a builder who works for all and sundry in a contractor capacity with multiple jobs then they are liable if they fall off the roof. That over simplifies things but gives you a broad idea. If a "visitor" comes onto your property and climbs a ladder and has an accident I don't fancy the outcome, the injured party is hardly likely to go for a small public liability payout when they can nail you for medical bills and lost wages are they.

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## pharmaboy2

Laws are different from state to state, in nsw workers Comp is highly restricted with set amounts.  Public liability is open to judgment and workers comp is not.  The only slight advantage to workers comp is its no fault, so if someone fell off the ladder after being told not to, and did something stupid, in tort that will make a difference to percentage of fault. 
I have never seen a home insurance contract without public liability.  For a better quality answer that is free ring up your insurance company, or better yet, use an insurance broker, they can explain the difference between a visitor and a worker.

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## mattwilliams78

I think even asking the question of my insurance company is recognition of liability on my part. Same as workcover enquiries. I'm sure they would say the worker isn't covered by my house insurance. As I said, different world now. If the person coming to do the work was getting paid, they would tell my insurance company in a flash and void the claim. If it was a mate doing a favour, and it was a simple maintenance job like cleaning gutters, I'm sure the insurance company would argue a lot but buckle in the end. If the person doing the work was a mate, and it was obvious I was in the middle of a reno, the insurance company would probably try to renege on the grounds the work was supposed to be being done by someone qualified. 
Thinking about your comments I reckon my best bet is to make sure the person is self employed and insured, even if I may a bit more in the hourly rate.

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## johnc

> I think even asking the question of my insurance company is recognition of liability on my part. Same as workcover enquiries. I'm sure they would say the worker isn't covered by my house insurance. As I said, different world now. If the person coming to do the work was getting paid, they would tell my insurance company in a flash and void the claim. If it was a mate doing a favour, and it was a simple maintenance job like cleaning gutters, I'm sure the insurance company would argue a lot but buckle in the end. If the person doing the work was a mate, and it was obvious I was in the middle of a reno, the insurance company would probably try to renege on the grounds the work was supposed to be being done by someone qualified. 
> Thinking about your comments I reckon my best bet is to make sure the person is self employed and insured, even if I may a bit more in the hourly rate.

   That pretty much nails it, if you have ever been on the pointy end of a claim you will be very reluctant to play silly games with this stuff

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## Bloss

You have come to an OK conclusion it seems, but you might have a problem in getting the final approvals - you have a DA in place and will need both DA & building construction sign-off and likely that will need a licensed builder to do both since you did not submit as an OB?

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## pharmaboy2

> I think even asking the question of my insurance company is recognition of liability on my part. Same as workcover enquiries. I'm sure they would say the worker isn't covered by my house insurance. As I said, different world now. If the person coming to do the work was getting paid, they would tell my insurance company in a flash and void the claim. If it was a mate doing a favour, and it was a simple maintenance job like cleaning gutters, I'm sure the insurance company would argue a lot but buckle in the end. If the person doing the work was a mate, and it was obvious I was in the middle of a reno, the insurance company would probably try to renege on the grounds the work was supposed to be being done by someone qualified. 
> Thinking about your comments I reckon my best bet is to make sure the person is self employed and insured, even if I may a bit more in the hourly rate.

  asking the question in no way is a recognition of liability, it is easy to ask the question generally, and they are most happy to help.  They tend to record their discussions and will tell you whatever they think the correct advice is, not what is best for them - it's a legal minefield to lie and they won't. 
in NSW you need to spend more than $7500pa to get workers comp insurance, the easiest insurer to deal with is Allianz for both home and contents because they will add domestic workers comp for a very reasonable fee. 
ultimately, you are better off with a trades qualified person with their own tools and pay them how you like - there is very little chance of them being considered an employee because you don't direct them what to do.  For house cleaning, gardening etc, you should always get a fixed price for the job rather than hours of work and not tell them what to do. 
The person who tells the insurance company in a flash btw is a complete idiot and will cost themselves far more, this is the same as someone who thinks the driver who just crashed into their car might be drunk - to report them to police is to hurt yourself financially and unwise.

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## Marc

Pharma, you know a lot about the law for a boy ... I bet you are not a boy at all  :Smilie:

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