# Forum Home Renovation Retaining Walls  Vertical Used Railway Sleeper Retaining Wall

## bentbanana

Hi all first post but I have read this site over the years and always gone away a little wiser.  
Has anyone had any experience with a vertical railway sleeper retaining wall ? (actual used railway sleepers). 
For example a wall 1.2 m high by X m long. Dig a trench 400mm wide and 1200mm deepplace 2.4m sleepers in vertically clamping and strapping togetherFill trench with concrete-  filling both sides of sleeperThen backfill - as per normalGaps inbetween sleepers allow enough drainage.  
Something like this: Kilgraney sleeper walls in progress   
I know council approval needs to be granted and there are more economical solutions
but curiosity is getting to me.  
Cheers
Jason

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## shauck

They look great, don't they? I can imagine the cost tho. There's one near my place that has been done that way but the sleepers are set at randomly varying heights.

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## barney118

How long do you want it to last?inadequate drainage where it meets concrete will slowly rot the bottom and the wall will fail.keep the water off this and they would last a lot longer, seems like over kill with all the concrete. Like you have said depending on council 800mm and above to be designed by an engineer

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## bentbanana

So with adequate drainage it would end up a more viable solution. Maybe some agg line and a saw cut through the bottom of the sleeper joins (vertically) to let some water run out.  
 The reason I'm looking at it this way is I need to do 2 walls both about 1.0m-1.2m high and approx 25m long each. The cost of blockwork would blow it out too far and I actually like the look of the old sleepers. 
Now the way i see it roughly guesstimating, for the sake of the exercise lets assume the excavator will be around the same money.  
Option 1
I have 50Lm of wall so post at every 1.2m (2.4m too far to span at 1.0 -1.2m high) lets say 42 x 2.4m x 150 Ub Galvanised uprights @ $53 Lm = $5340
Pier holes concrete 42 x 0.3 x 1.2m holes = 3.5m3 @ $171m3 = $600
Sleepers x 5 high = 105 x $18 B grade $1890
Total of 7830  
Option 2
Sleepers 215 x $18 = $3870
Concrete (trench 400mm wide -130mm sleeper = 270mm x 1200mm = 0.32m3 per lineal meter= 16.2m3 ) 50Lm x 0.32m3 = 16.2m3 @ $171m3 = $2770
Total $ 6640 
I hope i got my maths right  :Wink 1:  
Now i just think with the way my site is I figure is I have to get a machine up there, concrete and a pump with both options. Ok I have to deal with another 90 odd pieces of the puzzle as i need more sleepers but less gal post.What I am doing is saving myself the hassle of propping straitening and holding 42 Gal post in the ground while I pump concrete and also Ive worked on enough sites to know the nightmare of walking around braces and pegs.  
I figure i could make a temporary frame along the ground to lean the sleepers up against while I clamp and hoop iron sleepers together and pour concrete evenly up both sides.  
This is part of the embankment it need hasn't be tiered yet Attachment 88917. That pic was taken over two years ago and only part of it has slightly ran down in the heavy rain. The wall will be built needing to be backfilled with approx 1.0m width, which I am going to use 40-20 aggregate so not alot of pressure .  
Anyhoo just wanted some of you're opinions.  :Biggrin:

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## shauck

Check out the attached documents. If you take the dimensions of the steel posts from one document and match it with the wales from the other document to give yourself a greater spacing of posts, you can then have another go at calculating the cost.  
You haven't mentioned the dimensions of the sleepers you intend to use. If you stick with the vertical wall, the thickness would have to be as a post would be, surely? I reckon they'd have to be pretty chunky sleepers, 100mm thick or at least 75mm? You're backfill is very wide and so helps reduce pressure on the wall but you're really in an unknown area. Haven't seen design criteria for a wall like this. I could ask the guy who has the wall near me, if you like?

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## bentbanana

Shauck 
I'm planning on using B grade ex railway sleepers, so 2.4m x 240mm x 130mm. That's another reason why in my post and rail calculations post would be 1.2m spacing cause I will be cutting the sleepers in half.    
B Grade:
                  A good solid hardwood sleeper with a minor defect on its face                    or side. Will have some cracking. Very good for retaining walls. 
If you know someone who's done it or seen a wall like I'd love to get some info about it.  
Cheers
Jason

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## shauck

I'll see if I can get some info for you.

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## stevoh741

The way I was taught is that the dist sticking out of the ground is the same as the dist in the ground. Thats a lot of digging and concrete for you. Have you considered doing a correct depth post at say 1200 ctrs, then fix sleeper rails to the back of the posts like a fence, then fit the upright sleepers to the rails flush with your correct depth posts. This will save a s**tload of digging and concrete and is prob how I would tackle it.

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## shauck

That is brilliant.

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## bentbanana

> That is brilliant.

  Im hoping its as good in practice as it is in theory......

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## shauck

It sounded good but you could be right to be concerned about the idea.  
A proper wall would have all wales attached to posts both of which are a certain width/depth depending on height of wall and post spacing and whether the land being retained is flat or not and whether fence above or house or driveway above, etc, etc.  
By removing some of the horizontal wales and only putting in a couple as "rails", would that have enough strength to retain the ground behind? The rest of the verticals, if not sunk in concrete and dimensionally appropriate (that's something still not sure about either), would only be cosmetic.  
This is all a bit outside the box. Engineer??? 
Going back to you're original idea, I would think, each vertical member would have to be the dimensions of a post and treated as such, sunk in ground as above ground?

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## bentbanana

I've just drawn something up and sent it to my engineer.  
See what he comes back with....

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## bentbanana

Engineers has come back to me and said no problems with what I am proposing....

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## r3nov8or

It would be good if you could share your drawing here.

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## bentbanana

I'll try to upload pic below. It was only a sketch to get his comments and not a detail to be submitted to council. Although he would certify it.  
His only comment was
"Provide agg pipe behind the wall and selected graded granular back fill ( 200 mm wide ) hard up against the wall."

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## r3nov8or

Thanks! 
And he was OK with it being vertical, with no lean back?

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## bentbanana

He didn't mention it but I am planning on it anyway.  
The engineer I sent the detail too I have used for my jobs for  years now so he would of presumed I was going to do it also I'd say. I have seen many retaining wall details without the lean back on it though over the years, so if its required or just good practice I'm not sure.

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## autogenous

No offence; I can see the appeal. 
But why people would spend so much time and "effort" to build a structure with such a short life span that invites termites into their house is beyond me.  If cost is an issue I would much rather a stone pitched wall that will mean I wont be doing the whole thing again in several years.   
In the day an age of bureaucratic paperwork and engineering requirements Im surprised they are considered a safe means of retaining over 600mm in the event of collapse and killing a child etc. 
Im being cynical I know.  But think about it.

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## stevoh741

> No offence; I can see the appeal. 
> But why people would spend so much time and "effort" to build a structure with such a short life span that invites termites into their house is beyond me.  If cost is an issue I would much rather a stone pitched wall that will mean I wont be doing the whole thing again in several years.   
> In the day an age of bureaucratic paperwork and engineering requirements Im surprised they are considered a safe means of retaining over 600mm in the event of collapse and killing a child etc. 
> Im being cynical I know.  But think about it.

  
Built correctly that wall will last 20-30 yrs easy. Especially using those sleepers. Termites will have to be pretty hungry before they have a chomp at that. As added protection though I'd hit anything going in ground with CN emulsion first. I'd also be tying together the out of ground bit with some sort of rail to keep them all in the same plane.

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## bentbanana

No offence taken. 
I can see where your coming from, I work in the building industry and realize there is always better ways to do things but sometimes you got to do what you got to do.  
In regards to this wall its far enough away not to invite any termites to contemplate an invasion.  I am also meeting a pest controller on site to discuss ongoing termite treatment for these walls to reduce any potential termite problem. that may be via baits or spray.  
Ensuring plenty of drainage behind the wall I cant see why this wall wouldn't last longer than to be referred to a short life span option.

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## bentbanana

Stevoh 
Will be coating the wall with maybe some bitumen type paint on the bottom of the sleepers. 
Sleepers will be tied together with minimum hoop iron or maybe even some of the old 90 degree metal frame bracing as I have a stack of that lying round. I have had to go and dust off the old sash cramps for this one.... I am actually going to build a timber frame to lean all the sleepers up against and fix them to that, prior to pouring to keep them all in place also

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## stevoh741

CN emulsion would be better IMO as it forms a hard coating but also penetrates the timber to protect from rot and whiteants whereas with bitumen paint you are solely relying on its complete coating for protection.

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## bentbanana

Will look into it, its just having to paint 200 odd railway sleepers indivdually sounds daunting.

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## shauck

Just by the way, I spoke to the guy who made the retaining wall down the road. Apparently, there was already a retaining wall there and the vertical sleepers made a facade, in front of it. Anyway, seems like you're sorted. I'm curious if you're engineer would have passed you're design if the sleepers weren't so chunky.

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## bentbanana

> Just by the way, I spoke to the guy who made the retaining wall down the road. Apparently, there was already a retaining wall there and the vertical sleepers made a facade, in front of it. Anyway, seems like you're sorted. I'm curious if you're engineer would have passed you're design if the sleepers weren't so chunky.

  Sweet thanks for that.  
All sorted just got to build it now....

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## bentbanana

Stevoh 
In regards to the CN Emulsion. In a project like what I am thinking, how would you go about painting the sleepers. I am not sure if your talking about the lower half of the wall that is going to be concrete encased (except the bottom) or the top half exposed part of the wall alongside the backfill. 
a) paint the lower half before placing in trench
b) paint sleeper ends only then place in trench and then paint the entire lower half of wall 
c) place sleepers in trench then paint the lower half before pouring of concrete
d) pour concrete and paint the back of the wall before backfill 
What is the cost of the Emulsion and its coverage ? Is there any alternatives, I know years ago my old man used to swear by sump oil.  
My next door neighbour has just started to excavate so I need to pull my finger out and get my head around it.

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## stevoh741

I would coat the lower half that is going to be encased and the back with emulsion. For any exposed faces dont use imulsion, instead use CN oil. The emulsion goes hard on the surface while it soaks in providing in-ground protection, whereas the oil just soaks in. Cost for memory is around $50/4l but cheaper if you get 10l tins etc. Mitre 10 sell it up here but a ring around should source it easy enough. cant remeber coverage but nothing out of the norm.

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## Marc

Sleeprs look good but are a big job due to foundation and concrete and are in for a short term. Will eventually rot or be eaten by termites. Termites can be kept at bay with Byflex, Termidor or lots of sump oil pored in the soil behind and at the front. 
If its me I wouldn't consider it. Buy second grade Keystones from Boral direct. Minimal digging a bit of roadbase under them, some cheap 20mm aggregate behind it as you go and it will last 100 years.

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## bentbanana

I just thought for those who are interested in going down this path, I found this in my travels and thought I'd post it up. Its from Landscaping timbers, wooden garden timbers kiln dried and micronized treated to BS8417 from M&M Timber if you want to have a browse there is actually structural calculations for this type of wall posted there.

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## stevoh741

> I just thought for those who are interested in going down this path, I found this in my travels and thought I'd post it up. Its from Landscaping timbers, wooden garden timbers kiln dried and micronized treated to BS8417 from M&M Timber if you want to have a browse there is actually structural calculations for this type of wall posted there.

  Interesting read but I can tell you without drainage the wall will fail. I cant believe that could be printed without showing any drainage. Totally disagree with that brochure.

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## bentbanana

yeah i did notice the lack of drainage, putting that aside though I was actually thinking the timber sizes were a bit light on to get those heights....

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## r3nov8or

> yeah i did notice the lack of drainage, putting that aside though I was actually thinking the timber sizes were a bit light on to get those heights....

  I was intrigued when I read 'do not cut Unilog' and thought maybe there is reinforcing inside?

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