# Forum Home Renovation Paving  Acceptable level of broken pavers?

## Sir Stinkalot

We have just had a horrific couple of days trying to get some pavers ordered and laid. 
I started by calculating my area 64m2 and then added about 10% just in case my measurements were buggered and to allow for any cuts required (and the occasional broken paver).  
The pavers arrived yesterday and it was estimated that 20% (45 of 219) of the delivered pavers were broken and unusable.  
I was told by the landscapers that they wouldnt be able to complete the job as there were too many broken pavers. As I had ordered the pavers I went through the run around trying to get enough pavers back on site so not to hold up the landscapers.  
To cut the story short the landscaper contacted the paving supplier and managed to get enough pavers delivered onto site to complete the job without delaying it (even if I have spotted a few rogue pavers than are not originals). 
Now to the question  what is the acceptable level of broken pavers for a landscaping job?  
I would have thought that the rule of thumb would be 10% for cuts and broken tiles  but why as a customer should I expect to be forking out 20% extra for damaged goods? I wouldnt buy a six pack of beer and accept that two stubbies were empty.  
The same could apply for timber, however as this is a natural product so quality control is a little more difficult. 
Oh . And while Im at it does anybody have a rough price on the hire of a paver cutting saw so I can try and salvage the pallet load of broken pavers on my front lawn?

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## ozwinner

What sort of pavers are they?
Fired or concrete? 
Fired I would say 10%, but even that is waaaaay to much. 
Concrete maybe zero, the only way concrete pavers becomes unuseable is from rough handleing. 
Al  :Frown:

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## Sir Stinkalot

The pavers were concrete .... commercial quality 50mm thick. 
When we first enquired we were told they were surplus stock from Telstra Dome but later informed, after paying, that they were 2nds. 
Even as seconds I would be expecting the occasional chipped corner and slightly inconsistant colour but not pavers broken clear in half.

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## namtrak

I no longer do jobs where the client wants to use substandard pavers or retainers. 
I have lost too much using the cheaper pavers and retaining wall blocks and caps which break way to easy. 
As such, at the moment the only ones I am using *[plug mode]* are from Boral.  For the last job I did, we laid around 100sqm of paving with, I think 2 broken pavers, which I was able to use elsewhere.  The job also included over 40 lm of retaining wall and I used the Boral Heathstone with no broken ones at all, although there is a sort of flaking of the front of the block which looks broken but isnt.  And finally, I used standard caps, which were the weak link and of the 40 lm, I think I probably lost about 10, around 2 percent.*[plug mode off]* 
Unless I was buying seconds, I would return all the broken ones, or with hold payment to the supplier until you had some replacements.   
If I had a 20 percent loss rate on the pavers on this job, then that would amount to around 80 pavers. About $700 I think, way too many!!!! 
My maths may be a bit dodgy, but I would have thought a supplier would replace all broken ones.  Particularly when there is that many.

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## ozwinner

> The pavers were concrete .... commercial quality 50mm thick. 
> When we first enquired we were told they were surplus stock from Telstra Dome but later informed, after paying, that they were 2nds. 
> Even as seconds I would be expecting the occasional chipped corner and slightly inconsistant colour but not pavers broken clear in half.

  They are not seconds they are, rejects/land fill/crap.
They used to chuck all that crap away years ago, or munch it up and reuse it in the next batch. 
Al  :Frown:

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## namtrak

Typing slowly syndrome. 
Seconds?  I would accept maybe upto Five percent loss, Ten if they were cheap.  But as Scrooge McBrick says, concrete pavers are pretty hard to break.  So something seems a bit out of place,  how much are you paying?  I would pay around $45 per sqm for new ones and about $25 per sqm for seconds.  However to be fair the seconds supplier has the rider that I take them as is.

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## boban

What did you agree to buy? 
Read the terms and conditions of your contract.  If there isn't one, then you only need to pay for items which are fit for their purpose. That is not one broken brick, tile, or paver.  This also applies to natural products.

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## Sir Stinkalot

The contract that is printed on the back of the receipt doesn't say anything about damaged pavers. 
It does go on about not being liable for damage to council property upon delivery, claims of loss due to late delivery and no warranty on colour and texture variations from the display samples, but nothing about damaged pavers. 
The pavers were a very good price $18m2 but when we went to the yard to look at them there was no discussions about being 2nds, just surplus stock. In my mind surplus stock is excess stock that wasn't required on a job, not seconds. They were a cheap price because of the limited quantity available, only really suited to somebody needing about the same quantity as I did. It must be said however that I didn't haggle on the price at all ..... I wasn't told that the price was cheap as there were so many broken pavers ..... it was just the price they were asking and I was happy to pay. I don't think that the acceptable quanity (if any) of broken pavers can be determined by the price ..... its is more should you be expected to pay for a number of products that you cant use for their intended purpose. 
The pavers are Citystone by B+M Bricks ...... not what I would consider cheap and nasties. In fact they are quite good looking and very stable pavers. 
I get the feeling that the landscapers may have called up the supplier and put some pressure on them to deliver enough good pavers to finish the job off just to keep me happy ....... it wasn't a replacement of the 20% broken pavers but at the end of the day it was enough to finish it off. 
At this stage I am just going to let it go ..... I have been very disappointed by the quality of the service offered by the paving suppliers following payment but at the end of the day I have all of my paving completed at the price that I had agreed to pay ...... the fact that it was 20% higher than I could have paid is irrelevant. 
Namtrack ..... what is the best way to get rid of the salts?

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## boban

Then 0 loss is what you paid for.   
Sounds to me like you were well and truly misled.  You got the result you wanted in the end which is the most important thing I guess.

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## ozwinner

Stinky you need to get in touch with them and tell them you work for So and So and sons, architechs.
You were doing some research on their behalf into which paving supplier to use in the future. 
But, seeing as how your product is too inferior we have taken you off our prefered supplier list. 
Have a nice day, Al  :Tongue:

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## namtrak

> Namtrack ..... what is the best way to get rid of the salts?

  ?

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## Sir Stinkalot

I did try to get them to call me at work so when the phone was answered the Architect line was dropped but they didn't want to return my calls at all  :Biggrin:   
The after sales service was non-existant which is a shame ...... it seems that we are being educated to except a lower quality service and before long there will be no service offered at all. Remember the day when they filled your car with petrol for you? Thats another topic  :Shock:   
Part of me wants to keep fighting for the principal of the matter ..... the other part says that I finally have the paving completed after 2 years and I should be happy. I have the last laugh knowing that when we build our new house, or I am writing the specifications for others, I know which company to leave off the list.  :Biggrin:   
Namtrak ..... ok you made my try and say it ..... epsevesence  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:  
The white salts that come to the surface of concrete products.

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## namtrak

Okely Dokely, you could be thinking of two things. 
One is efflorescence.  Which is largely dependent on the actual process used to create the paver.  Mix too wet etc,  Try this site for some info  To save you time, try sandblasting. 
The other would be salt attack, depending on where you live.  And I think the main preventative action here would be sealing of the pavers. 
Cheers

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## Sir Stinkalot

Thanks Namtrak ..... I might try a quick blast with a pressure hose before going to the acids.

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## namtrak

Might be lucky, I couldn't remove it with a gurney.

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## journeyman Mick

Stinky,
call me stubborn but I would be hounding them for a refund for the broken pavers. I've never let anyone get away with that sort of stunt - ever. I find that giving them all the reasons and the steps you will take(lenghts you will go to) usually gets results in a few days. I once told a phone supplier that I would wheel my wheelchair-bound wife out the front of their shop and hold a press conference as they would not honour their extended warranty on the phone that she needed to be able to contact me on 24/7:mad: . They contacted me the next day and told me that they would be repairing it under warranty after all :Wink:    
Mick the stubborn

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## ozwinner

Hey Mick, maybe you and Jane need a holiday at Stinkys place.  :Tongue:   
Stinky there is a product put out by Klen its made for cleaning off eff.
You can get it at most places that sell concrete pavers. http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...cr%3DcountryAU 
It is made to clean concrete masonary products so as not to harm them.
I got the last lot that I bought from a local building/garden suppliers. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## Ashore

Stinky try this mob they may be able to help http://www.notgoodenough.org/ 
Worth a try  
Rgds

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## Sir Stinkalot

I have just counted and they used 189 of the 219 ordered .... leaving me with a pallet load of broken pavers on the lawn that I assume I now have to pay to have removed. 
The devil in me would like to load up the trailer with the broken pavers and dump them at their gate on a Saturday morning ..... but Im too lazy. 
Thanks for the link Al ..... I will look into it. 
I might hire a brick saw over a weekend and see what I can make from the broken pavers as we have another path we can do ..... imagine how much better the path would have been with the 30 unbroken pavers that I paid for. 
Ok ..... I have been sured on and I will give them a call and ask when they are going to collect the broken pavers and replace them with my newies ...... ahh this could be fun ..... I do like to ruffle feathers.

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## ozwinner

> ahh this could be fun ..... I do like to ruffle feathers.

  Ahhh, Stinky. Dont ruffle the feathers. 
Pluck the ####ing thing. 
Al  :Biggrin:

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