# Forum Home Renovation Tools & Products  Saw Stop

## METRIX

I witnessed this saw being demonstrated at the Sydney Timber show, very impressive, amazing how quick it drops the blade.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk

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## heavytrevy

pretty awesome

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## Random Username

I like the idea too, but the original inventor strikes me as a bit of a self-entitled w*nker*, which puts me off it.  The inventor first tried to get his idea taken up by the various big US table saw manufacturers, and when none of them wanted to pay what he felt it was worth (or wanted him to carry the insurance against claims on occasions when his technology didn't work as advertised), he tried to get the saw stop written into legislation.  California's table-saw safety bill is facing a fight - latimes 
So to me, it's one of those 'wake me up when the key patents start expiring and clones hit the market' products!  
*Actually, he's a patent attorney.  Same-same??

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## heavytrevy

I think most people who have lost limbs or digits would probably argue about it being a standard fitment , I think the manufactures are being tight arses

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## joynz

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop 
Apparently,  he tested the machine on his own finger!  According to Wikipedia, 4000 amputations are caused by table saws per year in the US. 
I think it is completely understandable that he wouldn't accept liability for something he was not manufacturing himself.

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## Pitto

> I think most people who have lost limbs or digits would probably argue about it being a standard fitment , I think the manufactures are being tight arses

  actually, having had a table saw accident as an apprentice, i think education and other safety items are a better idea than relying on a gadget to stop the sawblade. 
we have become too much of a nanny society, where common sense is no longer common.

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## heavytrevy

Im not sure education would make much of a differance ? Ive noticed ppl becoming more and more retarded . You cant fix stupid.

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## METRIX

> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SawStop 
> Apparently,  he tested the machine on his own finger!  According to Wikipedia, 4000 amputations are caused by table saws per year in the US. 
> I think it is completely understandable that he wouldn't accept liability for something he was not manufacturing himself.

  Watch the video in the first post and you will see hi demonstrate it on his own finger. 
And of course I would not want my invention falling into Chinese manufacturing hands, with their past records for lack of QA the blade would probably explode into a million pieces when stopped so abruptly, and liability could not be held.

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## METRIX

> I like the idea too, but the original inventor strikes me as a bit of a self-entitled w*nker*, which puts me off it.  The inventor first tried to get his idea taken up by the various big US table saw manufacturers, and when none of them wanted to pay what he felt it was worth (or wanted him to carry the insurance against claims on occasions when his technology didn't work as advertised), he tried to get the saw stop written into legislation.  California's table-saw safety bill is facing a fight - latimes 
> So to me, it's one of those 'wake me up when the key patents start expiring and clones hit the market' products!  
> *Actually, he's a patent attorney.  Same-same??

  I don't agree, he spent a lot of his own money and five years to develop the technology, therefore he is entitled to gain that money back via either patent or on selling complete units. 
if none of the other big manufacturers even investigated if there was a way of making these types of machines safer, then bad luck, he has over 90 patents on the technology, they will either have to redevelop their own or pay for the rights to use his technology. 
 I think that's fair, just like anything new developed, you develop it you own it,if someone else want's it they have to pay royalties to use it. 
I also agree, you can't save people from being plain stupid, but this is a device for helping save someone if an accident occurs which could happen be for any number of reasons. 
Should it be standard on all table saws, I would say Initially no, probably due to cost, but in situations where cutting shop saws are being used all day by humans, then yes, this type of device should be offered to protect the machine operators in case of an accident.

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## Random Username

Yes, he's certainly free to recoup his time and costs, but trying to get legislation to force all manufacturers to take up his device is the point where he goes from 'clever inventor' to 'rent-seeker'.

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## johnc

> Yes, he's certainly free to recoup his time and costs, but trying to get legislation to force all manufacturers to take up his device is the point where he goes from 'clever inventor' to 'rent-seeker'.

  So he went on a bit of a crusade, hardly Robinson Crusoe there, really if he had of got it up it wouldn't be much different to seat belt or airbag legislation. It is a good piece of kit, having seen it demonstrated I was sold on the product but the price was a bit of a hurdle. The saw stop is a robust build and functions well, blade guards are normal now, no doubt this may well be in time.

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## PlatypusGardens

I was gonna say "I saw this years ago" but then noticed that the video was from 2012. 
So the product is out there now?  
I'm still a bit dubious.
If it works on moisture/electric conductivity of your finger (or sausage  :Shock:  ) would it be possible that high humidity, a bit of wet timber, or some other variable might set it off?  
Good on him for sticking his finger in there.
Or did he....
Could be all smoke and mirrors.     
Reminds me of that guy who makes his own bullet proof vests and shoots himself in the chest    :Biggrin:

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## joynz

Apparently, you have to turn off the saw stop when cutting wet wood.  This is because the system works on putting some sort of current or charge through the blade.  Something wet, like a finger interrupts the current due to different conductivity and that interruption stops the blade.  Wet wood is quite similar to a finger so would keep turning the saw off.

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## PlatypusGardens

> Apparently, you have to turn off the saw stop when cutting wet wood.  This is because the system works on putting some sort of current or charge through the blade.  Something wet, like a finger interrupts the current due to different conductivity and that interruption stops the blade.  Wet wood is quite similar to a finger so would keep turning the saw off.

  
Yeh....that's what I mean.  :Sneaktongue: 
How do you know if the wood is "wet enough" to set off the saw stop?   
I think it's a great idea, and if the stuff in the video is true, the sausage demonstration alone is very impressive.
But I see too many variables that could set it off when not needed.    Would laminated board set it off?Would something you've recently glued set it off when cutting through the glue joints?Would slightly moist/damp MDF or particle board set it off?What's involved in bringing the saw back to "normal" after the Saw Stop has been triggered?Do you heed a new blade?Is it a special blade?How much does the Saw Stop break cost to replace?Are there any other modifications required to the saw itself to use the Saw Stop?   
so many questions   :Confused:   
Ah
"costly to the user because once activated, saw blade and cartridge must be replaced"

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## PlatypusGardens

This could maybe have a place in woodworking shops at schools etc. 
But then again with boys being boys, I can imagine them being set off on purpose just for the sake of it.
I know I would.....

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## UseByDate

> So he went on a bit of a crusade, hardly Robinson Crusoe there, really if he had of got it up it wouldn't be much different to seat belt or airbag legislation. It is a good piece of kit, having seen it demonstrated I was sold on the product but the price was a bit of a hurdle. The saw stop is a robust build and functions well, blade guards are normal now, no doubt this may well be in time.

  The three point seat belt patent was not financially exploited by Volvo. Volvo permitted its use without payment of royalties.   
 Is it mandatory to have airbags in cars? According to Wikipedia 
 In the United Kingdom, and most other developed countries there is no direct legal requirement for new cars to feature airbags. Instead, the Euro NCAP vehicle safety rating encourages manufacturers to take a comprehensive approach to occupant safety; a good rating can only be achieved by combining airbags with other safety features. Thus almost all new cars now come with at least two airbags as standard. 
 Maybe Australia has its own car design rules that mandate airbags.
 I also doubt that any royalties would be payable since the car airbag was invented in 1953.

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## SilentButDeadly

Looked at the Saw Stop some years ago but the price of entry was just too high so went with a normal quality table saw.  Belted my finger on the saw blade doing something stupid last year but it stayed with me... 
If the margin was in the order of $200 to $300 for a Saw Stop saw over a similarly featured 'normal' saw then I'd be interested but it isn't....so I'm not.   
Whilst the consequences for a saw blade incident are potentially high, the likelihood is not.  So on a risk based approach...why would I spend an extra two grand for something I probably won't ever need.  A couple of hundred for sure but two grand!!!

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## woodbe

I like the tech, but isn't the problem the running cost? 
If you cut a piece of moist wood it will activate. When that happens, you're up for a new blade and sawstop actuator.  
Have they fixed this yet?

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## PlatypusGardens

> If you cut a piece of moist wood it will activate. When that happens, you're up for a new blade and sawstop actuator.  
> Have they fixed this yet?

  
Yeh....deactivate the feature you bought the thing for in the first place...    :Doh:

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## METRIX

I asked the guy demonstrating it, and he said it will cut wet timber without a problem, it works on the same principal as and RCD, it needs YOU to make the circuit to ground, but if the timber is literally dripping wet then there is a possibility of it activating the system, you have a bypass mechanism where you can "test" if the wood is too wet, a red light comes on to let you know. 
And honestly, who cuts dripping wet timber in their table saw, I would be more worried about it binding in the blade if it was that wet.  *Will cutting green or "wet" wood activate the SawStop safety system?* 
SawStop saws cut most wet wood without a problem. However, if the wood is very green or wet (for example, wet enough to spray a mist when cutting), or if the wood is both wet and pressure treated, then the wood may be sufficiently conductive to activate the brake. If you are unsure whether the material you need to cut is conductive, you can make test cuts using Bypass Mode to determine if it will activate the safety system’s brake. The red light on the control box will flash to indicate conductivity. 
Yes the cost may be high, but so was ABS, Airbags, Stability Control, Plasma TV's, LCD TV'S, 3D TV's, and every other new technology until it's implemented in a lot of places the cost will eventually come down.

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## Random Username

The Sawstop (as its own-brand saw) has been around since the early 2000's.  As for price, the contractor version of it currently sells for $2,300 (comes with stamped steel side tables) or $4,200 for the table saw version, or $6,000 for the industrial table saw version.  So you're looking roughly 2-3x the price of a similar size/construction machine. 
The cartridge costs about $120, plus you probably will need a new blade, too (or at least a sharpen of the old one), so you could probably say $250 per activation. 
It's worthwhile noting that it is not a panacea - it  really works best with slow contact with the blade - ie when you are feeding things into the blade and your hand just happens to be in the path.  If it's something where you hit the blade with a bit of speed up (your bit of wood suddenly takes off due to kickback, taking your hand with it, or your sleeve gets caught or something) you're still going to end up with a severe injury. 
Bosch announced the Reaxx table saw a few months ago, which simply needs resetting after triggering, with no damage to the blade.

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## METRIX

The Bosch product looks like the go uses their airbag technology to disable the blade, and at a reasonable price, plus no destruction of the blade, the explosive cartridge is better priced than saw stop.
You still have to give it to the Saw Stop designer, if they hadn't come up with the initial idea, I don't think anyone else would have bothered to either.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag_XU2hYysA 
There are other retrofit devices now  Whirlwind Tool Patents Pending Saw Safety Technology

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## commodorenut

Surely they could activate some sort of solenoid operated brake system on the shaft rather than destroying a blade each time? 
In the time it takes to move that "disposable" actuator in place to lock the blade, a simplified brake arrangement could also be activated - and it could be made safer by being a fail safe design where it needs to be powered to release (unlike the saw stop which may or may not activate if a fault develops).

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## PlatypusGardens

> Surely they could activate some sort of solenoid operated brake system on the shaft rather than destroying a blade each time? 
> In the time it takes to move that "disposable" actuator in place to lock the blade, a simplified brake arrangement could also be activated - and it could be made safer by being a fail safe design where it needs to be powered to release (unlike the saw stop which may or may not activate if a fault develops).

  
Yeh but the main feature here is that the blade disappears below the table and in doing so all the rotational force is transferred in to the crumpling part 
Making it come to a dead stop, in place, in a split second would be hard to achieve without seriously damaging something...    
Think of it as catching an egg someone throws to you. 
If you just catch it like you would with a tennis ball, it would break immediately. 
If you catch it, and "slow it down" by moving your arms backwards and turning around (yeh like Kung Fu style) you'll more likely keep it intact.    :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> Surely they could activate some sort of solenoid operated brake system on the shaft rather than destroying a blade each time? 
> In the time it takes to move that "disposable" actuator in place to lock the blade, a simplified brake arrangement could also be activated - and it could be made safer by being a fail safe design where it needs to be powered to release (unlike the saw stop which may or may not activate if a fault develops).

  They estimate to stop a 5000rpm blade instantly generates around 1000G, that's a lot of G's to stop in a split second. 
Bosch's system will need servicing after 25 activations, as it will eventually damage something.

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## phild01

25  :Shock: , who has this many accidents.

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## r3nov8or

> ...
> Bosch's system will need servicing after 25 activations, as it will eventually damage something.

  That was a very sweaty hotdog  :Smilie:  
If someone sets this off *25 times* I think he/she will lose fingers etc in various other ways on a worksite  :Doh:

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## PlatypusGardens

> 25 , who has this many accidents.

  
They should probably stick to using a handsaw.....

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## commodorenut

So a spring loaded system that holds the blade up in it's normal position, but when power to a solenoid is cut, the spinning blade can drop below the table & be slowed down over say 0.25 seconds (thus being way less stopping force). 
More than one way to skin a cat, and I don't think destructive is necessary. 
Capacitance touch screens are now so sensitive, that you can work them a millimetre or so off the surface (for example, look at the glass panels you can get for an Iphone 6 that are some 0.7mm thick, and it still works as normal) or even try operating it through a layer of clothing (it still works).
If this system is working off capacitance, and can be made more sensitive like phone screens are now, then you could be 1-2mm away when it trips - thus one that drops down below the cutting surface wouldn't need to stop so fast.  Braking could then be applied like the current cordless tools have, where the blade is stopped over a short period of time (but long enough to not require a lot of energy). 
If we're talking an industrial setting, with large induction motors (with a lot of inertia) then braking is a lot harder, but it's likely they have a control system of some sort (or even a basic VSD) on these motors.  For a few hundred dollars a VSD could be fitted, which (in addition to other advantages like soft start & accurate speed control) can also be programmed to brake using the right combination of current - and could be interfaced into a system quite easily (and cheaply). 
Reset procedure would be as simple as pulling the assembly back up to the working position. 
$2000 for a destructive system is just overkill.  How much of that is pure profit?

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## PlatypusGardens

> $2000 for a destructive system is just overkill.  How much of that is pure profit?

  Comparing production cost per unit to RRP doesn't work though.  
Remember the curved hammer?   
I heard an interview with the guy who designed it and I seem to recall that the costs involved, from idea to finished product, was in the region of $1.000.000
And that's for an inanimate lump of steel. 
Here we have a sophisticated electronic system, movable parts as well as a disposable part (the brake) which no doubt went through hundreds of tests before they decided it was working as intended.
All highly engineered stuff. 
So the seemingly high RRP has to cover the development and research costs for a start, as well as marketing and manufacturing and a whole lot more.   
my $0.02.
(totally free)   :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> $2000 for a destructive system is just overkill.  How much of that is pure profit?

  I think your missing the point of the original saw stop, it took this guy 5 years to develop the system available now, that would have cost a lot of money to develop, he is entitled to recoup that money, and yes initially the saws will be expensive but like anything they will drop over time. 
I had a look at the saw, it's actually a very high quality unit, so there is money in the actual machine itself, forgoing the extra technology to do what it does.
You don't get nothing for nothing these days. 
Putting it into perspective, can you seriously tell me this Makita electric Planer is worth $1299, when all it does is plane, and it will still plane your fingers off if given a chance. https://sydneytools.com.au/makita-18...w-170mm-planer 
A Contractor Saw Stop is $2250 in AUS,SawStop - Contractor Table Saw : CARBA-TEC 
This saw is a higher quality machine than say a Hitachi C10FL which is $1499 in AUS https://sydneytools.com.au/hitachi-c...nary-table-saw
Or a MAKITA 2704 which is $1199 and is mostly made from Plastic https://sydneytools.com.au/makita-27...m-10-table-saw 
The saw Stop is not actually that expensive, compared to lesser quality saws with no blade stop technology. 
I'm not justifying the cost of his machines, I'm more blown away by the technology developed to stop a spinning blade designed to rip apart timber in a split second.
Nut you need to put the saw's into perspective of what they can do in comparison to what the others cannot,  
Drug companies spend a minimum of $350 million getting one single medicine to market  
Bristol-Myers, which under former research chief Elliott Sigal focused  on understanding human genetics and using the immune system as a weapon  against cancer. 
The result has been 9 drug approvals, including Yervoy  for melanoma and Orencia for rheumatoid arthritis, at a per drug cost of  just $3.4 billion, half that of Eli Lilly or Pfizer. “Look at what he  accomplished,” says Desmond-Hellmann. “Holy cow.”

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## Marc

It is really interesting to see the different reactions to the fortune and misfortune of another person. 
Someone invents a gadget to fill a niche in a market. The same someone tries to sell it best he sees fit. So? Has he forced anyone to buy at gun point?
Price is the result of offer and demand. If demand is higher he will sell it for $3000, may be $4000, so?
Chances are that at $2000 he probably is just trying to recover cost of development. 
Take a chill pill. Money is not dirty, Making money is a blessing. Having lots of money is great fun. Good luck to him and well done for taking such a complex project to the final stage.  :2thumbsup:  
PS
As far as medicine development how many think that it is "immoral" to charge that much for new medicine development and wait for the rest of us to pick up the tab via the PBS. As long as someone else pays for it it's OK .... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## METRIX

> I
> Take a chill pill.  Good luck to him and well done for taking such a complex project to the final stage.

   :2thumbsup:

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## PlatypusGardens

:2thumbsup:  :2thumbsup:

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## phild01

:2thumbsup: need one of these emo's with a missing thumb :Biggrin:

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## PlatypusGardens

> need one of these emo's with a missing thumb

  
Not in this thread....   :Wink:

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## johnc

> The Sawstop (as its own-brand saw) has been around since the early 2000's.  As for price, the contractor version of it currently sells for $2,300 (comes with stamped steel side tables) or $4,200 for the table saw version, or $6,000 for the industrial table saw version.  So you're looking roughly 2-3x the price of a similar size/construction machine. 
> The cartridge costs about $120, plus you probably will need a new blade, too (or at least a sharpen of the old one), so you could probably say $250 per activation. 
> It's worthwhile noting that it is not a panacea - it  really works best with slow contact with the blade - ie when you are feeding things into the blade and your hand just happens to be in the path.  If it's something where you hit the blade with a bit of speed up (your bit of wood suddenly takes off due to kickback, taking your hand with it, or your sleeve gets caught or something) you're still going to end up with a severe injury. 
> Bosch announced the Reaxx table saw a few months ago, which simply needs resetting after triggering, with no damage to the blade.

  I've seen the thing activated and the damage done to the blade, don't think the blade would be reusable.

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## johnc

> It is really interesting to see the different reactions to the fortune and misfortune of another person. 
> Someone invents a gadget to fill a niche in a market. The same someone tries to sell it best he sees fit. So? Has he forced anyone to buy at gun point?
> Price is the result of offer and demand. If demand is higher he will sell it for $3000, may be $4000, so?
> Chances are that at $2000 he probably is just trying to recover cost of development. 
> Take a chill pill. Money is not dirty, Making money is a blessing. Having lots of money is great fun. Good luck to him and well done for taking such a complex project to the final stage.  
> PS
> As far as medicine development how many think that it is "immoral" to charge that much for new medicine development and wait for the rest of us to pick up the tab via the PBS. As long as someone else pays for it it's OK ....

  Well summed up, the saw seems well made but I still bought a table saw without the device, just couldn't justify the price but if I ever slice off a finger I will have wished I put up the extra cash.

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## Random Username

Note that the $2,250 at Carbatec is for the saw body only - the brake unit is extra (a freebie till end of today, otherwise add $99), with the fence and rails an extra $440-$640 and cast iron extension wings an extra $299.

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## METRIX

> Note that the $2,250 at Carbatec is for the saw body only - the brake unit is extra (a freebie till end of today, otherwise add $99), with the fence and rails an extra $440-$640 and cast iron extension wings an extra $299.

  Of course the saw comes with a break, it's fitted at the factory, the FREE break CarbaTec is referring to is an extra break, so you actually get two brakes  :2thumbsup:  like this guy has two thumbs. 
The saw also comes with a fence and rails it's the 30" version, but like most equipment if you want to go bigger you can purchase optional parts, which is no difference to other "good quality" table saws.
You can purchase the 36 or 52 inch version as an extra, and just like any other table saw if you want extension wings you would also have to purchase these separately.. 
How silly would it be to offer the saw without the essential safety piece as standard, or offer it with no fence or rails.
That would be like buying a car and not fitting breaks or a steering wheel. 
If you like you can check it out at "I LIke Wood", if you think Carbatec is also a rip off. Sawstop Contractor saw - I Wood Like :I Wood Like 
As you feel the Saw Stop is a rip off, what are your thoughts on the Festool CS70 Table saw, at $2149 GBP which is currently around $4380 AUD, and that is only a direct conversion if buying in England, if Festool actually bought this out here is would probably cost twice that, considering all their other tools are half the price overseas than they are here. 
The Festool has NO safety feature, it's just a standard high quality Table saw, makes the Saw stop look like a bargain.. Festool 561253 Cs 70 Eb-set Gb 240v Precisio Trimming Table Saw & Attachments, FES561253 at D&M Tools  *Specification Sheet* 
 Overall saw dimensions (including the motor): 44 w x 391⁄4 d x 343⁄4 h (table saw only)   581⁄2 w x 40 d x 343⁄4 h (w/ Contractor Fence Assembly)691⁄8 w x 41 d x 343⁄4 h (w/ T-Glide Fence System & 36 rails)851⁄4 w x 41 d x 343⁄4 h (w/ T-Glide Fence System & 52 rails)Cabinet footprint: 253⁄4 w x 27 dCast iron table: 20 w x 27 d, 44 w x 27 d (w/ extension wings)Extension wing: 12 w x 27 dExtension table (optional): 193⁄4 w x 27 d (36 rails), 353⁄4 w x 27 d (52 rails)Weights (approx.): 225 lbs (table saw only)245 lbs (w/ Contractor Fence Assembly)310 lbs (w/ T-Glide Fence System, 36 rails & table)335 lbs (w/ T-Glide Fence System, 52 rails & table)35 lbs (optional cast iron extension wing)Shipping weight (approx.): 240 lbs (table saw only)Blade: 40-tooth, professional grade, 5⁄8 arborBlade diameter: 10Blade tilt: LeftBlade kerf: 3 mmBlade plate thickness: 2 mmMax. depth of cut, blade at 0º: 31⁄8Max. depth of cut, blade at 45º: 21⁄4Max. rip, right of blade: 301⁄2 (w/ Contractor Fence Assembly)361⁄2 (w/ optional 36 rails)521⁄2 (w/ optional 52 rails)Max. rip, left of blade: 161⁄2 (w/ Contractor Fence Assembly)121⁄2 (w/ T-Glide Fence System)Dado diameter: 8 (requires a separate brake cartridge and table insert)Dado max. width: 13⁄16Arbor diameter at blade: 5⁄8Main bearing size: 62 mm OD x 30 mm IDSecond bearing size: 52 mm OD x 25 mm IDTable in front of blade (max. elevation): 105⁄8Table behind blade (max. elevation): 71⁄8Arbor Runout: 0.001 maximum allowable runoutTable Flatness Measured Diagonally: 0.016 maximum gapBlade Alignment with Miter Slot: 0.010 maximum displacementDeviation of Miter Gauge Indexing Stopsfrom actual angle: ±0.25ºAlignment between Spreader and Blade: 0.010 maximum differenceMiter slots: T-shaped, 3⁄4 at top, 1 at bottom, 3⁄8 deepDust collection port diameter: 4Riving knife / spreader thickness: 2.3 mmBlade guard: polycarbonate, extends only 1 to right of bladeStandard Insert: zero-clearance, steel core with ABS surfaceBelts: V-ribbed belt motor belt is static dissipativeHandwheels: 6 diameter, cast aluminum with ABS handleMotor Options : 1.75 hp, 50 Hz, 208-240V (model CNS175-AU)

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## Random Username

If you look at Carbatec's Product Description box, it states that:  *PLEASE NOTE:* TO COMPLETE YOUR TABLE SAW, PLEASE CHOOSE YOUR PREFERRED FENCE & RAIL:    36" T-Glide Fence & Rail (SS-PCS-FENCE36)52" T-Glide Fence & Rail             (SS-PCS-FENCE52) 
There is no indication that a fence (of any sort) comes with it, as it is continually referred to as a "table saw body" and there are no specifications of any fence in the product specs. (usually their table saw descriptions have 'Fence: aluminium lever type' or similar content) 
There is also no indication that the blade brake is a spare/extra unit - usually I'd expect a freebie like that to be waved at me boldly (ie "FREE! Spare blade cartridge!") not hidden in the order details as a limited special offer. 
These statements - 'table saw body' and 'Please note - to complete..." are common across all three models of Sawstop saw on their site, but don't appear with any of their other table saws. (table side wings also tend to be standard inclusions with table saws, not optional extras - even Carbatec's $1,400 10 inch table saw has cast iron wings as standard) 
So, either they are _really, really bad_ at writing their sales material for the Sawstop, or they are just trying to look cheaper than the competition by selling it in discrete units.  My original pricing was from the iwoodlike.com.au site.  
And as much as I admire Festool's chutzpa at their 'If you need to ask, you can't afford it' pricing (which even Festool aficionados grumble about, especially the Australia tax), my own table saw budget only stretched to a secondhand one of these. 
If you want to really be amazed at Festool, they actually got authorisation from the ACCC to set minimum retail prices for their products.

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## METRIX

I don't understand why you have such a bee in your bonnet about the saw stop machine, perhaps you need to look at the "I like wood" link I put in previous, this might clarify what you do and don't get, or better still go directly to Sawstops website for AU model. http://www.sawstop.com/ 
I will put screenshots below to satisfy your curiosity, and save you clicking. 
Prices for the saw from I Like Wood range from $2360 to $2950 inc, the difference is the size of the Rip Fence and type of Fence, $2360 gets you the saw with a 30" rip guide and std fence, Carbatec are just a little cheaper for the same unit and were also giving a free brake with the saw as 1 comes with the saw (see below configs), these are the only two distributors for the product in AUS. 
Just in case your still unsure what you do or don't get I will build a contractor model for you, as you will notice you DON'T have to option for the safety device, because it comes with the saw as does the 30" guide, I think the pics below are self explanatory.

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## Random Username

The reason why I don't like the Sawstop is exactly as I stated in my very first post in this thread, where I said (emphasis added):   

> *I like the idea too*, but the *original inventor strikes me as a bit of a self-entitled w*nker**, which puts me off it.  The inventor first tried to get his idea taken up by the various big US table saw manufacturers, and when none of them wanted to pay what he felt it was worth (or wanted him to carry the insurance against claims on occasions when his technology didn't work as advertised), *he tried to get the saw stop written into legislation*.

  It's that spoilt kid attitude of "I'mma' gunna tell mummy on you (get the government to make _my_ device mandatory)" that has put me (and many other people, especially in the USA) offside with the product.   
Nothing more than that. 
I don't particularly have any issues with the manufacturers wanting him to underwrite the insurance against claims when the device doesn't save a body part - that seems perfectly reasonable to me, especially in America's litigious environment.   
If the saw manufacturer makes the device to his specifications (so that any failures are not because of manufacturing shortcomings, but because of actual device methodology shortcomings) I think it's not unreasonable that he carries the cost of insuring against those.   
You'll note that I am actually familiar with the iwoodlike.com.au site, as that's where I pulled the prices for a Sawstop from to add a bit of information (price, price of consumable brake, in my post #21) in response to posts number 14, 17 and 18 which speculated on costs. 
So I'm not quite sure why you have copypasted the price/pics from the iwoodlike site, when my further comments have been talking about Carbatec's lowball price of $2,250 as mentioned in your link in post #31.   
In my response to that (my post #39) I was just pointing out that from the information presented on Carbatec's site (for reasons set out in post #41), I would not blindly assume that Carbatec's slightly cheaper offer includes either a fence or a brake cartridge, and it certainly doesn't include side extensions which are standard on most other brands of table saw - so at the very best you have to add $299 for the wings, and possibly an extra $500 or so on top of that.

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## PlatypusGardens

Can we at least all agree that it's an amazing piece of technology that stops and drops the blade at the touch of a sausage?   :Confused:

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## METRIX

> Can we at least all agree that it's an amazing piece of technology that stops and drops the blade at the touch of a sausage?

  Well said. 
That's why I started the topic, because I was amazed how technology can be used for this purpose and how something with such mechanical momentum can be dropped and stopped so suddenly, saving a person from badly injuring them self, then in 5 minutes can be back in action again. 
And so what if it destroys the blade and mechanism, so be it, that's the design of that particular device, Bosch has come up with another way of doing it where it does not destroy the blade but does still require a piece to be replaced if activated, that's the beauty of these devices once invented then others can change and perfect the system to how they see fit. 
Who knows the Gen III may not destroy the blade, and also may not require anything to be changed, let's wait and see. 
I personally don't care what it does or does not come with, or who invented it or what they tried to do with the invention, I'm just glad to see someone was thinking outside the square and actually invented something that can be useful to save another person having an accident, and I have no problem with him recouping money for inventing it, admittedly he may have been a bit hasty with wanting it mandated, but that's why there are systems in place which did not allow this to happen. 
NEXT.

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## r3nov8or

I'm in two minds here -
- is this making the careless that little bit more complacent? or
- making them more careful so they don't have to pay for the parts? 
Possibly a bit of both, and probably depends on who's paying...

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## METRIX

Can't say I have every had an incident where my finger was ever close enough to the blade to become a problem.
That's probably because I have respect for the tool and what it can do, as the definition says.  *Accident, an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty;* *mishap* 
I guess it can happen for a number of reasons, either not paying attention, using the machine incorrectly, inexperience, not respecting the equipment's ability to destroy anything it touches.

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## PlatypusGardens

While I've never really used a table saw, with all the other saws and "dangerous" tools I use, I doubt I'd become complacent about the dangers if I knew they'd shut down if I touched the blade.... 
Can't see too many people becoming careless thinking "Meh, the blade will stop, I'll be right"  
But who knows.

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## r3nov8or

Is METRIX in this video?  :Smilie:   Australian Wood Review: Saw Well, Saw Safe

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## notvery

Where's METRIX i want to show him this new saw stop????   
oh hes busy fixing a door...

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## PlatypusGardens

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

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## METRIX

> Is METRIX in this video?   Australian Wood Review: Saw Well, Saw Safe

  HA HA HA, I "saw" the guy with the video camera, I am just off camera but my mate is in there, HA HA HA HA

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## METRIX

> Where's METRIX i want to show him this new saw stop????   
> oh hes busy fixing a door...

  That door looks like another Doors Negative special.

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## PlatypusGardens

> HA HA HA, I "saw" the guy with the video camera, I am just off camera but my mate is in there, HA HA HA HA

  
Did you stop when you saw the camera?

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## METRIX

> Did you stop when you saw the camera?

  I was actually recording that exact demo, don't think I can put it on here too big.

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## PlatypusGardens

> Did you *stop* when you *saw* the camera?

  
geddit

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## shauck



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## Marc

> I like the idea too, but the original inventor strikes me as a bit of a self-entitled w*nker*, which puts me off it.  The inventor first tried to get his idea taken up by the various big US table saw manufacturers, and when none of them wanted to pay what he felt it was worth (or wanted him to carry the insurance against claims on occasions when his technology didn't work as advertised), he tried to get the saw stop written into legislation.  California's table-saw safety bill is facing a fight - latimes 
> So to me, it's one of those 'wake me up when the key patents start expiring and clones hit the market' products!  
> *Actually, he's a patent attorney.  Same-same??

   So you actually believe to be able to make a value judgment of this person you don't know, from the way you perceive he is selling his invention...
do you have something agains patents? Perhaps patents should be banned and inventors should share their findings with the 
community? Or just steal and reproduce them at will like thy do in china?
oh how dare this dirty attorney making money at the people expense! In fact I think money should be banned altogether. Rich people summarily killed and everyone work for food coupons.

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## woodbe

Um.. Marc, So you actually believe to be able to make a value judgment of this person you don't know, from the way you perceive his opinion of the SawStop Inventor?

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## UseByDate

Marc,
 No one is arguing that people should not be allowed  to profit from their inventions and patents (IP in general) but there is no guarantee that the IP owners will make money from them. Most inventions with associated patents are commercially worthless. If the public wants a product, can afford the product and think it is value for money they will buy the product and the manufacturer and IP owner will make money (assuming the product is priced to make a profit). I.e the market place is the final arbiter.  
 What some people object to is when the owners of patents try to get the adoption of products, that use their patents, mandatory through law, regulation, standard or even worse suing rival companies for designing/inventing products that use a different method to solve the same problem as a patented product. i.e. no infringement of patent. Surely owning a patent does not give one the right to corral the innovation of others.  SawStop sues power tool makers because its patented technology was not adopted into UL safety standard | Essential Patent Blog

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## Random Username

What the previous few comments said.   
Guy invents product, fails at his attempts to get manufacturers to take it up (at the price he wants), attempts to force it on manufacturers by legislation.   
If you can't see that as a bit of a dick move, then I know you will be happy to support my attempts to get legislation introduced to have the government put an extra 1% on the GST and the money so raised sent to my bank account.  That sounds like a perfectly good business model to me (which I just invented), and it is grossly unfair that the Government won't support my business model!!*  **   
*See also Gerry Harvey's "Its all the fault of the 10% GST that I am losing sales to overseas...if it was levied properly, then everyone would buy the stuff I sell at twice the price it's sold at overseas!" whinge. 
** Or maybe the government does support your business model, you just have to be Rupert Murdoch.

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## PlatypusGardens

> Guy invents product, fails at his attempts to get manufacturers to take it up (at the price he wants), attempts to force it on manufacturers by legislation.

  Yeh that's not cool...   :No:

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## Marc

> What the previous few comments said.   
> Guy invents product, fails at his attempts to get manufacturers to take it up (at the price he wants), attempts to force it on manufacturers by legislation.

  OK, How can I summarise the value judgement of the above comments? One worth ... pathetic.
Ok may be with the exception of PG who has used the term not cool ... very mild hehe
To expand a little bit: 
Inventor does not work in the parliament of his country. Elected representatives do.  
People put forward proposals for legislation all the time every time every day of every hour of the week. That is every citizens prerogative.  
100% of the time the person proposing legislative innovation does so for his own personal gain, be it for money (shame shame) for ethical, religious, moral, bias, misconception, emotional and other assorted reasons that will make him feel better because his bank account is now larger or because his ego is inflated by the applause of his peers, hero of the day, victim of the week, or reason of your choice. 
And in case you wonder, every single piece of legislation that forces the consumer to do or buy something "for his own good" is part of a business that makes money. (yes that dirty thing ... ) 
Safety belt manufacturers beware, If you make money you are a w@##&$. 
 Give me money from the taxpayers so that I (Chinese investor) can compete with my windmills against your generators. Allow me to sell it dearer to the consumer so that they can feel better about themselves ... (just one example that is publicly acclaimed for obvious reasons)   
Parliament rejects most personally motivated changes that do not fit the politics of the moment and embraces all those that the voting public in their ignorance believe to be oh so good. (Oh yeaa, _I am a conscientious_ _objector, -_ pronounce with shrilly inflections _- _ I want legislation to protect me from all those bad doctors that want to vaccinate my kids ... and I want the Centrelink payment for vaccination as well of course) 
 The saw stop legislation did not pass only because a quick analysis showed the morons in charge that they would lose more votes than they would gain. If enough public support is perceived for free marihuana in primary schools, we would have legislation pass quick smart. May be even a treaty with the Asia pacific region for free trade of pot.

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## woodbe

The SawStop legislation did not pass because it was a commercially biassed suggestion. If the workers compensation dept, master builders and insurance companies banded together supporting the SawStop for public good and economic benefit to the government then it might be a different matter. 
In any legislation, there are winners and losers. It's the government's role to choose carefully, and in this case it would appear that they did. It's not necessary to create an overnight millionaire just because he asked to be given a monopoly instead of commercially earning a good income if he runs his business well. After all, isn't that what most of us do, why should he be so blessed?

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## Marc

You seem to miss the fact that I am not criticizing the US parliament for not approving this motion, far from it.
I find it appalling the amount of bias against one person that is doing what every business person with a brain does to advance his cause ... that is, making money. Lobbing government for legislation is one of the many perfectly valid and legal instruments used every day. No point becoming enraged because if passed it will make him a millionaire.  
I venture that the rage has a lot to do with allergic reaction to success and not much to do with justice or "the common good"

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## PlatypusGardens

But there's a bit of a difference between making the Saw Stop mandatory as compared to, say, seatbelts in cars.    :Smilie:

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## woodbe

And where is the rage? I'm just pointing out the obvious flaws in your constructed reality. 
I'm happy for people to invent things and become successful by their own efforts with or without an invention. That's what makes the world go round.

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## Random Username

Well, as I see it, a business can make money ethically - by continually surprising and delighting customers and being a good corporate citizen (helping old ladies across the street, paying taxes, being kind to kittens and puppies and not clubbing cute baby fur seals to death...at least, not where photos can be taken) - or it can employ every mechanism that is not specifically to-the-letter-of-the-law illegal and act for all the world like a corporate embodiment of a narcissistic sociopath, convinced of its own righteousness.  (depending on your own personal prejudices, feel free to think of Monsanto, the World Health Organisation, big Pharma, big Oil, Bilderberg Group, BP, Scientology, Freemasons and so on) 
I know what sort of business I prefer to deal with. 
But I would like to know how I should assess another person/business, if not by their statements and actions.  
How many times have you formed an opinion of a politician/media commentator/authority/author without meeting them in person and having a meaningful several hour chat with them (with or without beer)?? 
For example, some people feel happy to diss the work and ethics of thousands of climate scientists (because they support the idea of anthropogenic global warming), despite never having met a representative sample and talking through the issues with them, and how is the value judgement - "global warming is bunkum because it's a global conspiracy of warmist scientists" - any different to labelling a legislation-hungry business owner a w#nker?   
The only way that I have of forming an opinion about someone I will probably never meet is to do it by looking at that person's public actions and statements, and basing my opinion of them on what they have said and what they have done.   
You may (or may not) be aware that there is an entire industry devoted to looking after a person's public image, and it pivots around the fact that the vast majority of the population will *never* meet the industries' clients face-to-face, so their clients' public image - as projected by what they say or do, or, more importantly, what they are seen to say and do - is all important. 
The estimated US revenue for this industry was $11 billion dollars in 2014, so there are presumably more than a few people who understand that their 'value as a person' will be mostly measured by proxy.

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## r3nov8or

> But there's a bit of a difference between making the Saw Stop mandatory as compared to, say, seatbelts in cars.

  Not if, say, the Saw Stop was mandated as required equipment on the bonnet of every new car!   :Smilie:

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## Marc

The anti success bias is easily recognised yet very hard to accept for oneself.  
is it ethical for a CEO or a doctor or an inventor or the owner of your place of work to earn 200k? What about 500k a year? One mil? What about 23 millions a year?  
at some stage you will, if you are honest, throw your arm up and say it is outrageous, offensive, obscene,or other value judgment of your choice.  
had the dude in question donated his invention to the Salvos, and then dedicated his life to lobby parliament to make it mandatory and died indigent frozen to death on the steps of congress clinging to the door knob, he would be up there with mother Teresa.  
Your problem is with other peoples success if you accept it or not.

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## woodbe

> The anti success bias is easily recognised yet very hard to accept for oneself.  
> is it ethical for a CEO or a doctor or an inventor or the owner of your place of work to earn 200k? What about 500k a year? One mil? What about 23 millions a year?  
> at some stage you will, if you are honest, throw your arm up and say it is outrageous, offensive, obscene,or other value judgment of your choice.

  If the income is earned fairly, it doesn't bother me if the person gains extraordinary income. Like I said, that's what makes the world go around.  
If the person is having trouble making the income he desires from an invention like the SawStop, and then starts trying to get it forced onto every power saw by government legislation, then he is clearly not playing fair, he is trying to take choice away for personal benefit.   

> Your problem is with other peoples success if you accept it or not.

  Nope, I don't have any problem with other people's honest success.

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## Marc

Ha Ha Woodbe, corporate earnings and fairness do not co-exist  in the same sentence.  
 Money is earned in an adversarial way, using all means necessary restricted only by the law of the land. 
Ethics are used as wrapping to fool customers in buying your product.  
 Furthermore, it would be impossible for you or me to decide what is "fair" and what is not in this case. 
 I repeat that lobbying for favourable legislation to support one business over another is a run of the mill strategy and there is nothing to wring hands about it. Business PAY money to professional lobbyist for "access" to politicians for this very reason. Almost any business you can think off perhaps short of your local fish and chips. 
People become apoplectic only when they can personalise actions of this nature and seem indifferent if it is a large corporation doing this.  
It all comes back to one reason. The immense bias against other people's success because every person on the planet has in the back of his mind a number. The number representing other peoples income they perceive to be "fair" and one that is "not fair" ... there is a lot to talk about this fact of life and it's origins, but it would exceed the purpose of this discussion.

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## UseByDate

> Safety belt manufacturers beware, If you make money you are a w@##&$.
>  .

  Safety belt (seat belt) manufactures pay no licence fee to the patent holder of the car seat belt (probably expired now anyway). It is good that they make money because if they did not then they would not make them and we would not have cars. Note that they would make less money if they had to pay a licence fee to the patent holder.

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## UseByDate

> is it ethical for a CEO or a doctor or an inventor or the owner of your place of work to earn 200k? What about 500k a year? One mil? What about 23 millions a year?

  I have no problem with the ethics as long as I am not forced to do business with the CEO's company, forced to visit the doctor, forced to buy the invented product or forced to work for a company by legislation.

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## Marc

Taken out of context has no meaning. 
That's OK, I have known for a long time this topic is misunderstood most of the time.

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## woodbe

> Ha Ha Woodbe, corporate earnings and fairness do not co-exist  in the same sentence.  
>  Money is earned in an adversarial way, using all means necessary restricted only by the law of the land. 
> Ethics are used as wrapping to fool customers in buying your product.

  More bunk. 
There are plenty of honest business people who make money running their businesses. This is not adversarial, it is about earning an income from supplying goods and or services. 
Are there dishonest business people out there? of course there are. That does not mean all businesses "fool customers in buying your product"

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## notvery

why does "emissions trading" keep coming into my head.... its almost like deja vu all over again... :No:

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## UseByDate

Marc
 Your constant argument is that many posters are envious of wealth, especially in the hands of others. I cannot see any post in this thread where anybody had argued that it is wrong to be wealthy.  What many have argued is that it is wrong, not legally but ethically, to force people to buy your patented product. Each of us has ethics, which sometimes differ from other peoples ethics. If some of us choose not to buy this product because we believe the company is behaving unethically (by our standards) then we have that right. If you choose to buy the product then that is your right.
 Can you name three products that are still in patent that you are forced to buy by legislation?

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## PlatypusGardens

> What many have argued is that it is wrong, not legally but ethically, to force people to buy your patented product.

  Yeh that's the message I'm getting too.
(And the point I made....I think....)  
(I agree anyway...)    :Smilie:

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## Random Username

Are we seeing the birth of a new theory of economics here?   
A kind of hyper-Ayn Rand objectivisim (selfishness on steroids) approach to business where the businesses that succeed are the ones that are simply the biggest assholes? 
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

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## Marc

Yes,yes, very funny ... Not surprising the limiting believes and anti values that transpire from the numerous comments is but the usual cross section of replies one gets from normal everyday people.
No surprises there. 
Particularly interesting is the surfacing of the word "honest"... Love it!
anyone would like to add the following sterereotype : "I am poor but at least Iam honest" that woul complete the picture perfectly ... Ha ha 
If we would be talking about tools or even the latest nutritional supplement, most folks would be willing to have an open mind .... When it comes to show how limiting believes determine our success or our failures, most people cling to them as if their life depended from them...and in fact it does. Your current status depends directly from your current set of values, or "anti" values like I like to call them. But hey ... Who is listening anyway? Particularly when it is free.

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## woodbe

Anyone who is honest is poor? 
So all those people driving Mercs and BMW's are totally dishonest? How about Toyota drivers? Where do you draw the line? Are you honest, Marc?

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## Random Username

Are 'limiting believes' the kinds of Barnum statements trotted out by motivational life-coaches/new-age religious figures such as 'Come firewalk with me (and please buy my books/CDs/DVDs as they will bring you personal success)' Tony Robbins?   
Please excuse me as I work myself into a Peak State (TM Robbins Research) and do some Success Fist Pumping (TM) and chant "I" (TM) and make Must Gestures (TM) and....wow, my energy is OUTSTANDING!  
(some ideas stolen from here, because it made me laugh so much)

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## Marc

Yes, no surprises again. Good luck guys.
the difference between you and me is not that one is right and the other is wrong no matter who.
the difference is that I know why you think you are right yet you don't.
Anyway enough of that,there is no much point since you guys are so sure to be right,  :Biggrin:

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## woodbe

Lol. 
the difference is that I know why you think you are right yet you don't. 
You are 100% correct.  :Biggrin:

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## PlatypusGardens

This thread needs more banana

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## johnc

> This thread needs more banana

  Only because someone made it pear shaped!

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## r3nov8or

I guess a Saw Stop will go off if it hits a banana or pear?

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## METRIX

> I guess a Saw Stop will go off if it hits a banana or pear?

  No, only a sausage. 
See below Sawstop R&D Dept consumables before and ready to go

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## paddyjoy

I wonder if he trusts the system enough to put his own sausage in the line of fire :eek:

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## METRIX

> I wonder if he trusts the system enough to put his own sausage in the line of fire :eek:

  Yes, he does  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiYoBbEZwlk

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## PlatypusGardens

> No, only a sausage. 
> See below Sawstop R&D Dept consumables before and ready to go

   
I'm hungry now

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