# Forum Home Renovation Solar Electrical Systems  Solar advice needed!!

## shads

We are looking into solar electricity - trying to beat the 30 June deadline. Taking an average of our last 12 months' electricity bills we use about 8kW a day (primarily in the evenings and weekends) and so were planning on having a 1.5kW system installed - which is probably all our budget will stretch to at the meantime anyway. We are on the northside of Brisbane and have 2 companies attending to give quotes -Green Home Energy (quoted approx $1600 over the phone) and Solar Shop (no quote provided). We also had a quote from Ingenero for $3200 who seem to do the quote from an outdated satellite photo??! 
We have a skillion roof with 10 degree pitch, 2.5 x 12 metres, east facing and unshaded. 
Anyone had any experience with these companies? Do we need to look out for any hidden costs which might arise if a new meter is required? i've heard horror stories of people having to have the cable from the meter box to the power pole replaced, costing another grand or so on top. The house is 1960's with the original meter box.  Any other recommendations? 
Totally new to this game and a bit overwhelmed with information overload so any input welcome.... 
Thanks

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## Bloss

Why are you going this way and why the rush? Your roof is far from ideal in both orientation and angle. This is a long term investment - the $1200 or so reduction in the Federal RECs makes a difference, but IMO is not a good reason to rush in. There are many many ways to reduce your energy costs much cheaper than a PV system (although I am a supporter of them and all renewable energy). 
Is you house well insulated (my guess is not given your description)? Do you have solar hot water? Do you have efficient lighting? If you have heating for winter what sort is it (replacing that would give an earlier payback than PV)? If you meter does not meet current AS3000 standards (so for a start roughly 600mm x 600mm square) then that will have to be brought up to the standard before or when installing any PV array (so around $1300-2000 depending on what's needed). The panels should be at 30 degrees and facing north (+/- 15 degrees or so) - you will loose considerable generating capability if you simply mounted them on your 10 degree roof facing East. Installer care little about that - that affects your long term income not theirs!  :Redface:  
Any installer can 'quote' using Google Earth, but you should not sign up to any until and unless they have done a site visit and give an actual fixed quote all up that you are prepared to accept. Their contract needs careful reading - and get legal advice if you do not understand it. They lean heavily towards the seller and once you have signed up then you have signed up - so if they then tell you there are changed circumstances or there is something extra then you have to accept (and pay more) or have a fight on your hands. You are investing in a fixed asset that has to give you a return over the long term. This is not a car or something you can trade-in or hand back if you don't like it! Treat it that way!  Don't get flummoxed because it's new technology - its' a big decision and it's your money so it is your right to ask questions and get honest answers. BTW if you do sign up then your deposit should be no more than 15-20% (check if it is refundable and under what circumstances) and never ever pay a final payment until and unless you have the final sign paperwork in your hands - ie: not from the installer, but from the utility who has to certify it is connected to the grid and is supplying power to the grid.  :2thumbsup:

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## BRADFORD

:What he said:

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## stevoh741

To give you an idea I have a 1.5kW system facing EN and cops a bit of shade in winter. Over the last yaer it has saved me about $700 bearing in mind the more than normal overcast and rainy days we have had and the fact my panels are in shade for about 3 months I still think this is a good saving. My system will be paid off in 2 years total then hello savings. Also given a proper summer I imagine it might be pushing $800 a year off my bills to which I can now just give to the f#%$ing water companies. 
That 10 degree pitch and E facing isn't ideal but I would assume the installers should be able to adjust the panels to a better pitch and possibly angle slightly more north. I assume this would be something you would have to be proactive in pushing as nothing said I garantee they will just shove them up there quick as possible and move on to the next place.

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## SilentButDeadly

> 

  Ditto.

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## Bloss

> To give you an idea I have a 1.5kW system facing EN and cops a bit of shade in winter. Over the last yaer it has saved me about $700 bearing in mind the more than normal overcast and rainy days we have had and the fact my panels are in shade for about 3 months I still think this is a good saving. My system will be paid off in 2 years total then hello savings. Also given a proper summer I imagine it might be pushing $800 a year off my bills to which I can now just give to the f#% water companies. 
> That 10 degree pitch and E facing isn't ideal but I would assume the installers should be able to adjust the panels to a better pitch and possibly angle slightly more north. I assume this would be something you would have to be proactive in pushing as nothing said I guarantee they will just shove them up there quick as possible and move on to the next place.

  The issue is not the amount of money you get as income - it is the Return on Investment (ROI) available by investing in PV as a fixed asset for 20 years or so versus what other investment you might make. Your 'savings' aren't real until they overtake the ROI you could have received in an alternative investment (such as bunging the money in a fixed bank deposit at 6% - which BTW is liquid so you can get the money out if you need too). In most cases the break even point on a 1.5kW system will be more like 6-7 years - but that depends on what you get for the power you sell (for example whether it is offsetting or actually being sold with a FiT). To the extent you are accepting a lower ROI then you are giving away money.  
As soon as you start using frames and brackets to alter the angle of panels on a roof you start adding serious money for additional components and labour. That can quickly add 30-40% to the cost - and that is rarely cost effective.  
I have 3kW on my roof and am about to add another 7kW - but I am in the ACT and gave a gross FiT so it's a no brainer. That is not so in other States and you need to really understand the economics before deciding to go ahead. If you are a bit of a risk taker and have the cash it is probably a reasonable bet to hedge against future power price rises, but go in eyes wide open. And if you want environmental outcomes buy GreenPower!

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## shads

Thanks guys for the advice.  
Bloss, to answer your questions, the house has roof insulation and the new extension to the property (main bedroom, ensuite and study) is very well insulated. We have gas water heating and efficient lighting. We don't have aircon or any other power-hungry appliances other than the usual. The only heating is an electrical oil heater which we drag out for those cold Brisbane nights....I'm not sure that there's much more we can do to reduce our energy costs.  
We've had our first visit from a potential installer today who indicated that we would lose about 10% generating capacity with the roof orientation. We were told that we could expect the system to produce, on average, 6kW a day, which should almost meet our 8kW daily usage. Although I take the 'meter running backwards, comment with a pinch of salt, I must confess  if the figures quoted are accurate- then it seems to make sense to me. The outlay is just under $1700 which is manageable.   
What is the general consensus on getting a 3kWh inverter installed (an additional $500) to potentially upgrade further down the line? We are extending the house and considering putting in a pool which will of course increase power consumption.  
Also, still a bit confused as to whether we would be liable for costs incurred in upgrading the meter. The installer thinks not and our energy retailer (Origin) and Energex have also said that there would be no charge to install the new digital meter as energex technically own them.  
Stevoh, who did your installation and were you happy with them? 
cheers

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## Smurf

> The issue is not the amount of money you get as income - it is the Return on Investment (ROI) available by investing in PV as a fixed asset for 20 years or so versus what other investment you might make. Your 'savings' aren't real until they overtake the ROI you could have received in an alternative investment  
> ... 
> If you are a bit of a risk taker and have the cash it is probably a reasonable bet to hedge against future power price rises, but go in eyes wide open. And if you want environmental outcomes buy GreenPower!

  Agreed. One difficulty however is forecasting the price of electricity over the coming years. I'd be willing to bet that it will significantly exceed CPI increases unless something drastic happens (eg world economy falls in a major hole thus sending fuel prices through the floor).

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## Bloss

I reckon it's a better bet than a horse or a footy game that energy prices will rise way ahead of CPI & inflation as you say, but gotta be able to afford the bet even so . . .

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## stevoh741

[QUOTE=Bloss;838317]The issue is not the amount of money you get as income - it is the Return on Investment (ROI) available by investing in PV as a fixed asset for 20 years or so versus what other investment you might make. Your 'savings' aren't real until they overtake the ROI you could have received in an alternative investment (such as bunging the money in a fixed bank deposit at 6% - which BTW is liquid so you can get the money out if you need too). In most cases the break even point on a 1.5kW system will be more like 6-7 years - but that depends on what you get for the power you sell (for example whether it is offsetting or actually being sold with a FiT). To the extent you are accepting a lower ROI then you are giving away money. [QUOTE] 
No problem here on ROI - I got the initial $8.5k from the government and my outlay for 1.5kW system was $1200. Will be paid off in 1.5 years. That's 18.5 years of cheap beer whilst my panels remain in warranty or 8.5 years should the inverter go out of warranty. Either way for me beats the banks measly 6%

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## Wombat2

From peronal experience after 9 months in use the actual output will be about 2/3 the theoretical output of 5 x the size of the system ie in your case the average daily output will be around 5 KwH per day. If you want to match your consumption you would need a 2.5Kw unit or round up to 3 and get 10 KwH/day. Only regret I have with our system is that I didn't go for a 5Kw system.

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## Bloss

Average real output for Brisbane & SE Qld would be around 4.2kWh a day for each 1kW capacity - not 5kWh. So if you are getting 5kWh you are doing better than expected average not less IMO. No-one should use a 'theoretical output' except the sales guys - there are plenty of resources to indicate what a realistic real life average will be (in Australian capital cities at least). And PV sales people can be a bit like the old joke about computer sales guys: How do you tell when they lying - they will be talking.

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## woodbe

> Average real output for Brisbane & SE Qld would be around 4.2kWh a day for each 1kW capacity - not 5kWh. So if you are getting 5kWh you are doing better than expected average not less IMO

  PVWATTS v. 1 
Suggests Brisbane output for N facing panels at latitude inclination would deliver around 3.8 x kW rating over a year. 
woodbe.

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## Wombat2

Shads said he was looking at 1.5Kw system - I said from my experience he could expect about 5KwH -Woodbe says 3.8x 1.5 = 5.7 KwH  - Close enough for spitting distance.

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## Bloss

mmm in furious agreement I think   :Smilie:  although the PVWATTS v1 calculator is generally thought conservative (ie: an underestimate). I was not reading carefully enough(!) - I was referring to a 1kW system while David to the OP's 1.5kW system. On an average year correct inclination yep - around 6kWh a day for that 1.5kW. But highly variable season by season and for most places in Eastern Australia this year more cloud so fewer sun hours than long term average.

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## arms

do a search here  http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/138?g=223

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