# Forum Home Renovation General Odds & Sods  Builder Costs $4400 per m2

## Wavenut

Hi all,  _First thread so please consider my inexperience._ 
I have recently recovered from a 7 year renovation in Sydney. Yipee - sold the place and moved to the country - what could go wrong!!!!!! 
 I purchased a plain canvass of a couple of acres in the Yass Valley with intentions to build (utilising my wealth of knowledge gained through seven years of blood, sweat and tears). 
Surprise the builders working out of canberra are charging up to $4400 per m2 (thats right - not per square - per square meter) 
It costs 600k to build what can be built off the plan in Sydney for under 250k 
Thoughts?????

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## OFG

G'day mate, welcome to the forum. 
It sounds expensive to me, but I'm a bit behind the times. 
I think it would be best to get a few more quotes, you might be surprised at the differences. 
Good luck with it and let us know how you go.

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## Wavenut

Hi all, 
I have some sub trade parts and labor breakdowns from the builder (in an attempt to justify the $4400 per metre rate) 
Electrician - Parts 44k Labor 88k 
Plumber - Parts 35k Labor 65k
Tiler - Parts 30k Labor 70k
Floor Coverings - Parts 55k Labor 65k
Roof Install - Parts 100k Labor 105k
Concrete - Parts 60k Labour 50k 
Does this sound about right for a 165m2 house??

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## ringtail

> Hi all, 
> I have some sub trade parts and labor breakdowns from the builder (in an attempt to justify the $4400 per metre rate) 
> Electrician - Parts 44k Labor 88k 
> Plumber - Parts 35k Labor 65k
> Tiler - Parts 30k Labor 70k
> Floor Coverings - Parts 55k Labor 65k
> Roof Install - Parts 100k Labor 105k
> Concrete - Parts 60k Labour 50k 
> Does this sound about right for a 165m2 house??

  
What a load of absolute bollocks. Anyone considering paying those prices is absolutely mental - and I'm sure you're not mental. Tell him to jamb it where the sun don't shine. Do you have a cost for the chippies to actually build the house ?

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## Wavenut

> What a load of absolute bollocks. Anyone considering paying those prices is absolutely mental - and I'm sure you're not mental. Tell him to jamb it where the sun don't shine. Do you have a cost for the chippies to actually build the house ?

  Yes its 70k plus a management fee - its what i call the canberra effect (Canberra being the most expensive housing per m2 in the world) and as i live 23km from ACT they add a travelling premium on top of what is already ridiculous 
The house quote is around 550k and on top of that is around 60-80k for water tanks, power, access road etc

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## ringtail

> Yes its 70k plus a management fee - its what i call the canberra effect (Canberra being the most expensive housing per m2 in the world) and as i live 23km from ACT they add a travelling premium on top of what is already ridiculous 
> The house quote is around 550k and on top of that is around 60-80k for water tanks, power, access road etc

  
Who do these clowns think they are. Maybe Bloss can shed some light, he's a Canberrite. Maybe I should move back there and undercut the lot of them :Biggrin:

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## Gaza

> Hi all, 
> Floor Coverings - Parts 55k Labor 65k
>  165m2 house??

  if entire house was carpet / timber not tiles this works out to $727.30m2 
this guy pulled this from the sky.

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## Godzilla73

> Hi all, 
> I have some sub trade parts and labor breakdowns from the builder (in an attempt to justify the $4400 per metre rate) 
> Electrician - Parts 44k Labor 88k 
> Plumber - Parts 35k Labor 65k
> Tiler - Parts 30k Labor 70k
> Floor Coverings - Parts 55k Labor 65k
> Roof Install - Parts 100k Labor 105k
> Concrete - Parts 60k Labour 50k 
> Does this sound about right for a 165m2 house??

  You forgot the kitchen, and going by those prices it'll be pushing 100k+... Seriously, 85k for tiles and carpet for a 16sq house, the same for my 14sq place was under 4k installed.

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## Bloss

Firstly why would you get quotes from Canberra builders for Yass work? Yass & surrounds have quite a few builders and plenty of other tradies too. Work in the ACT has been drying up so you need to shop around in any case. A high quote, if they bother, can mean they have plenty of work, but if you accepted they'd be happy because the margin was so big! 
In any case it sounds like they've been adding in travel time too - not uncommon, but if you go local not needed. Locals like to pick up a job around Yass as it is easier for them too. 
Of course there is no such thing as a 'normal house' or 'standard price' - anyone can  offer a quote for a house of the same area that can vary by 300% and more - depending upon design, fittings & finishes and so on. 
This Archicentre doc from May last year might be useful - but in my experience they a nearly alway under in the cities and over for most regional areas (see attached). The ACT uses a building cost guide for setting fees - single story residential is sitting at around $1300/m2  - that could be taken as a minimum - so for your 165m2 that's around $215K. But as I said all sorts of things can change that. 
Another hard & fast rule for me is to get word of mouth references from people who have had work done - quotes are for the most part a waste of time and effort for all trades. At best they have a 1:2 or 1:3 chance of getting the job. That means that often you simply will not get quotes from anyone who is getting plenty of work by reputation or if you do they will be pretty much auto generated and aimed high. A good builder IMO will quote fair, but lean high and then charge what the actual rates end up being. Even for good work and changed requirements, which are universal in my experience, few people like to be told the job will cost more, but will be pleasantly surprised if the cost is a less. 
Of course few seeking to build realise that there will always be a contingency of at least 20% to cater for weather and other shyte happens events - and always more for renovations rather than new builds. 
As someone said to me recently when I was offered a product at 3x the retail price being charged by the manufacturer 'no one forces you to buy at that price'. 
Summary - get some more quotes and from locals with local references if you can.

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## Bloss

> Who do these clowns think they are. Maybe Bloss can shed some light, he's a Canberrite. Maybe I should move back there and undercut the lot of them

  mmm - if that's what the market is paying why would you take less . . .  
ACT - average household income 18% higher than national average, all things being equal you'd expect that to be reflected in most parts of the economy - and it generally is. Big whinges recently because petrol prices in ACT have been higher and stayed higher than other cities - and they have but two things are clear 1) only two suppliers Coles & Woolies and 2) purchase volumes have remained almost unchanged. 1) tells you there is no competition (and don't start me on shopper dockets!) and 2) whinge they might, but they are still buying - and no-one I know takes any effort to reduce consumption through taking advice such as can be found all over the place eg: Green Driving and Environmentally Friendly Ways To Drive Your Car | NRMA Motoring & Services or Fuel Saving Tips | Motoring | RACQ or even the simplest - having your tyre pressures at the maximum recommended for loaded high speed driving.

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## barney118

> Who do these clowns think they are. Maybe Bloss can shed some light, he's a Canberrite. Maybe I should move back there and undercut the lot of them

  Why move from Gods country, you wouldn't survive the winter in Canberra with you short sleeve shirt! :Biggrin:

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## Wavenut

> mmm - if that's what the market is paying why would you take less . . .  
> ACT - average household income 18% higher than national average, all things being equal you'd expect that to be reflected in most parts of the economy - and it generally is. Big whinges recently because petrol prices in ACT have been higher and stayed higher than other cities - and they have but two things are clear 1) only two suppliers Coles & Woolies and 2) purchase volumes have remained almost unchanged. 1) tells you there is no competition (and don't start me on shopper dockets!) and 2) whinge they might, but they are still buying - and no-one I know takes any effort to reduce consumption through taking advice such as can be found all over the place eg: Green Driving and Environmentally Friendly Ways To Drive Your Car | NRMA Motoring & Services or Fuel Saving Tips | Motoring | RACQ or even the simplest - having your tyre pressures at the maximum recommended for loaded high speed driving.

  Hi guys, 
Firstly thankyou for all of your input - it is appreciated.   *All quotes and prices are legitimate there is nothing plucked from the sky here.* 
Bloss makes some very good points and it was only this evening that i heard on the ACT news that it is most expensive state to rent in (with a $120 a week increase over last 5 years), but more importantly, and i think what has happened down here is that people have not been comparing an apple to an apple.  
So the average home price in the ACT is now 480k whilst sydney is 515k. But the 480k doesnt buy you the sydney 515k - in the ACT the homes are tiny, the land tiny and most new places are common wall build. The average size of a new ACT home is 101m2 on a 380m2 block where as Sydney is 300m2 home on a 500m2 block - this is very important when comparing the averages as the ACT average is weighted. Statistically it may actually be that ACT is another two thirds dearer per apple to apple than Sydney - which is something i would never ever had envisaged when i moved here --------- the new build prices do actually reflect this weighting though. 
So when trades have quoted per house at around the Sydney price they are doing about a third of the work. This afternoon i received two very important pieces of this information puzzle. One was from a plumber who is an aquantiance of a friend of a friend and he was open and honest and said that he is making 180k profit a month on the common wall builds in the new subdivision at Crace. And with the homes 116m2 homes on 315m2 blocks with single bathroom and garage and 2.1 by 2.1 mains selling for 550k and 615k it is not hard to see why. Springbank rise has similiar prices with some of the basic units listed on their web page at around the 580k to 650k for 116m2 homes on 315m2 blocks. I checked with the consultant today and they said it was because they are built to ACT standards???? 
The second piece of information came from a well known Australian and Sydney builder (probably the best bang for buck now they are back in business) and they are suggested a $2200m2 price for a basic bare home with no upgrades - so something on their listed site at 215k they suggested would come in at around the 480k mark. They said, and they do have some basic ACT prices listed on their web page (around 40% higher than the identical Sydney design), however they cautiously mentioned that the contracts are different and to start at the increased web page and allow *another 40% balloon for final finishes* (carpet etc) - so realistically thats the 60-80% increase on Sydney price. 
Additionally and i have not mentioned this but near my vacant block a display home was built and it was advertised that it cost 770k to build it and 350k for the land, which they then attempted to sell it as "why below replacement value" at 990k - now this place is 20 squares with an 11 degree pitch roof, zero lintels and a basic fitout. The developer also suggested another 110k for tanks and sewage. They could not sell it and have now rented it out for 900pw. 
Anyway i hope this sheds more light on it as i think the original cluster of quotes probably targeted the pointy end and were unrealistic. 
One more thing is that contractors to the public service whom form the majority of the population in the ACT can be earning from $2400 to $5500 per day so i am guessing that is a huge disposable income. 
Anyone want a cheap block of land - i will be moving back to Sydney

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## ringtail

> Why move from Gods country, you wouldn't survive the winter in Canberra with you short sleeve shirt!

  
Been there done that. Born there and bailed in 1980  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

> mmm - if that's what the market is paying why would you take less . . .  
> ACT - average household income 18% higher than national average, all things being equal you'd expect that to be reflected in most parts of the economy - and it generally is. Big whinges recently because petrol prices in ACT have been higher and stayed higher than other cities - and they have but two things are clear 1) only two suppliers Coles & Woolies and 2) purchase volumes have remained almost unchanged. 1) tells you there is no competition (and don't start me on shopper dockets!) and 2) whinge they might, but they are still buying - and no-one I know takes any effort to reduce consumption through taking advice such as can be found all over the place eg: Green Driving and Environmentally Friendly Ways To Drive Your Car | NRMA Motoring & Services or Fuel Saving Tips | Motoring | RACQ or even the simplest - having your tyre pressures at the maximum recommended for loaded high speed driving.

  
 There is no way the market is paying 4.5k/m2. No way I tells ya :Tongue: . How much for a deck per m2 ? 2k ? for treated pine too :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Tongue:  :Tongue:  :Tongue:

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## ringtail

So I could get all the materials to build a complete house on the back of a semi, freight it to Canberra, rent a hotel for 3 months ( or even camp on site), bring a crew with me, and build crap houses for 2 k / m2 and make a butt load of money, put everyone else out of business and be a hero to the home owner. Hmmmmm, tempting. Why on earth would any tradie go to the mines if they can earn 5 k per week in Canberra ?

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## Wavenut

> So I could get all the materials to build a complete house on the back of a semi, freight it to Canberra, rent a hotel for 3 months ( or even camp on site), bring a crew with me, and build crap houses for 2 k / m2 and make a butt load of money, put everyone else out of business and be a hero to the home owner. Hmmmmm, tempting. Why on earth would any tradie go to the mines if they can earn 5 k per week in Canberra ?

  Ringtail, 
Some sydneysiders are already on it - my guess is they like each weekend at home whereas at the mines they only get every second at home. 
Most of the yass, murrumbateman, Queanbeyan motels are completely booked sunday night to thursday night with the travelling builders these days. 
I ran into some harden locals the other day who car pool to canberra and back everyday (couple of hours each way) as they are plasterers - they said its worth it as they each get $2400 a day working commercial buildings in Dickson ACT. 
Guess its one of those things people in the know dont want anyone else to know - but you can build my house of 2k a m2 if you like, thats half price.

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## Wavenut

> There is no way the market is paying 4.5k/m2. No way I tells ya. How much for a deck per m2 ? 2k ? for treated pine too

  All, 
There has been some questioning of the mentioned quotes and prices; 
Probably the best clarification which is not open a can on my personal scrutiny is to check the web for yourself. Go to the lend lease, springbank rise, casey site and look at the off the plan completed homes; the basic price without additional or government charges (stamp duty etc), purchase process are; 
1. house size 107m2 block size 387m2 = price 479k
2. house size 167m2 block size 387m2 = price 506k
3. house size 135m2 block size 387m2 = price 510k
4. house size 143m2 block size 460m2 = price 506k
5. house size 167m2 block size 486m2 = price 600k
6. house size 208m2 block size 465m2 = price 600k
7. house size 250m2 block size 520m2 = price 690k 
Add around 60-80k for the ACT stamp duty and charges and 10k for the purchase process takes these to 580k through 780k for nothing over 250m2 
The remainder of the developments are even more expensive 
As for 22km out of towner - well i have stated the quotes i recieved.

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## Gaza

> $2400

  stop talking crap, 
they are on that per week not per day. 
we are a sydney based company but done a few big jobs in canberra and rented houses / hotels etc the guys are on around 45 to 50 an hour ABN, compare to sydney which 35 to 40.
i know formworkers are getting 2k clear with accomdation paid for.

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## shauck

Ringtail, meet you in Canberra?   :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

> stop talking crap, 
> they are on that per week not per day. 
> we are a sydney based company but done a few big jobs in canberra and rented houses / hotels etc the guys are on around 45 to 50 an hour ABN, compare to sydney which 35 to 40.
> i know formworkers are getting 2k clear with accomdation paid for.

  
The builders' mark up must be huge then. 40 - 60 per hour is pretty standard in Brisbane for ABN Subbies except for sparkies 80 + and Plumbers 100-160. 
So those prices listed below are for house and land ? If so, the last one is cheaper than Brisbane depending on the suburb. Going rate in my area for a 405m2 flood free block is currently about 430k but in the boom was 500 ish depending on competition.

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## Wavenut

> stop talking crap, 
> they are on that per week not per day. 
> we are a sydney based company but done a few big jobs in canberra and rented houses / hotels etc the guys are on around 45 to 50 an hour ABN, compare to sydney which 35 to 40.
> i know formworkers are getting 2k clear with accomdation paid for.

  Gaza, 
Thats what they told me - i asked them and they said 24, i said 24 bucks an hour and they both laughed and said $2400 a day. Considering they are driving 2 hours each way per day so four hours a day or 20 hours a week it is probably about right. They are car pooling from Harden to Dickson and working commercial.  
I had a call from a tiler this morning (at 630am????) who said he would do CASH for $170 a m2 *if i supply the tiles, glue and grout*. If he need to cut tiles he said it would be $220 a m2 - and this was his CASH price. He cant do it for 6 weeks.

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## cherub65

PM, Ill do it next week

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## goldie1

It must be something to do with the carbon tax  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

I'm going back to Canberra then it looks like. Absolutely no work in Brisbane and a bunch of tradies with no work = low hourly rate and getting lower. Some jobs advertising for chippies with 10 years experience, all tools and insurances 25/ hr. Pffft, may as well work at maccas

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## Bloss

> There is no way the market is paying 4.5k/m2. No way I tells ya. How much for a deck per m2 ? 2k ? for treated pine too

  I didn't say the market was paying that . . .  
My simple point was that in business you should be charging what the market will pay - Canberra is a high income high cost market - but is contracting quite hard. Fair enough t be competitive, but only sufficiently to get the business you are after. If you position yourself in a price market rather than a value market then someone will always undercut you and unless the buyer has some way to know your work is better than the mob offering cheaper quote then they'd be silly not to just take the cheapest.  
As you know there are plenty around who are operating in a cash market so not paying GST or income tax (or not all of it), plenty who'll work without insurance, plenty doing the same - they'll always beat on price. Some will even do an OK job.

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## Bloss

"One more thing is that contractors to the public service whom form the majority of the population in the ACT can be earning from $2400 to $5500 per day so i am guessing that is a huge disposable income." 
Rubbish - as I said the average income in the ACT is around 18% higher than the rest of the country the latest figures say ~16% - see here http://www.treasury.act.gov.au/snapshot/AWOTE.pdf which has AWOTE at $1656 a week - hardly the amounts wavenut is saying. 
ACT property market has dropped 13% see here http://www.treasury.act.gov.au/snapshot/RESPROP.pdf and building approvals have dropped 16% in the last year. 
ACT stamp duty and charges are not $60-80K either (varies of course eg: stamp duty on $500K is now ~$18K on $500k and $31,800 on $750k) and land is more expensive (but he bought well in Yass area?) so I reckon wavenut needs to do some more research. 
Also can't compare commercial building and trades work with residential - both are drying up. And need to be careful on using straight dollars - there re plenty getting big dollars, but doing big hours too ie: pretty standard hourly rates, but working 80-90 hour weeks and more.

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## ringtail

I reckon we are all heading for the crapper over the next year anyway so may as well stay warm while the ship goes down :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## Bloss

> I reckon we are all heading for the crapper over the next year anyway so may as well stay warm while the ship goes down

  That's a sensible  plan . . .

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## Wavenut

> That's a sensible  plan . . .

  G'day guys 
Thanks for the info bloss - just to confirm the consultant prices has come straight from the source who contracts the work out the companies (so its on the mark), apart from the legal consultants whom are on 750 an hour. 
The stamp duty was packaged as a stamp duty and management fee - straight from the consultants mouth - i did not even want to take it any further so i just passed that on as a comment in the forum. I have since returned their call and questioned it and as Bloss suggested it is not so much stamp duty it is in fact BASIX fees!!!!!!!!!! 
Anyway i have just returned from Yass where i sat down for three hours with basically Yass's only big building company.  
They commented _"All we do these days is just work out how much the finished property will be worth and then meet the customer somewhere in between"_ They have quoted a 3 bedroom 200m2 home (one of their range) with 2400 celings, flat pak kitchen, carpet, tiled bathroom and kitchen floor with single bathroom and ensuite at 420k. It is spray painted internal with white one coat. The basix is the responsibility of the client, it also does not include a garage or any council fees. *This does not include any sewage tanks, water tanks, power connection (does include internal electrical), driveways, landscaping etc* 
Like i have said and will say again - if their are so many of these builders whom others are quoting as reasonable priced then please give me their details and i will give them the 350k to build a reasonable house...............simple as that - but i wont give someone 550-600k for the same product.

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## Wavenut

> That's a sensible  plan . . .

  *GUYS BELOW IS AN EXTRACT FROM A CONVERSATION OF EXACTLY THE SAME THING IN MAR 2010 FROM THE RIOTACT WEBPAGE;
WORTH NOTING PROPERTY PRICES IN MY AREA HAVE RISEN AROUND 300K IN THOSE TWO YEARS AND IN THE MEANTIME THE BUILDERS HAVE PROBABLY MILKED THE TRAIN TO ITS LIMIT.*   _I am a new in property market and bought a residential land in the Gungahlin region. Now those days I am busy to traveling from one display home to get some design idea and most important, to find the cost of building._  _And guess what? I was so surprise about how greedy and outrageous of the building cost charged by Canberra builders to local people. For example, for a double story home, looking about 220sqm (inclusive of area of Garage), 4 beds, 2 bath, double garage, the start price is around $340K. This price does not include any flooring or front landscaping cost, which you have to pay about more than $20K on top of the start price, also, there may be lots of things not in the standard inclusion list, e.g. gas cook top, change ceiling height from 2.4m to 2.7m, etc. Which means at least you probably look to pay $360k-$400k. That is  about $1,500  $2,000 per sqm !!!!!!!!_ _Ok, in the mean time I surf many Sydney and Melbourne builders website and still for the above house package, start price from $230K-$240K, and with all the upgrades, flooring and front landscaping, total price just over $250K. Example like one of my friend in Melbourne just signed contract with his builder, total area of 358 sqm and total price only $320K, that is about $900 - $1,000 per  sqm !!!!!!!!!!!_ _So how come Canberra builders can charge  50%-100% higher than Sydney or Melbourne builders? Anyone know the  reason? DO NOT TELL ME IT IS BECAUSE  THE DIFFERENT BUILDING REGULATION FROM STATE TO STATE._ _Sorry about the gossip as I feel so angry about the Canberra builders. Rumours I heared before was builders in Canberra make $180K profit from each home they build, and I think builders from Sydney and Melbourne will never dream about to have this high margin on their project._ _My final comment: anyone saw this post and is going to build their Australian dream in Canberra, let us work out something together just being not to ripped off by the local builders. If we can put our block of land together and attract some Sydney builder to Canberra to build for us, even there is many additional cost e.g. transportation, I think it is still worth to try it._

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## Wavenut

> Hi all,  _First thread so please consider my inexperience._ 
> I have recently recovered from a 7 year renovation in Sydney. Yipee - sold the place and moved to the country - what could go wrong!!!!!! 
>  I purchased a plain canvass of a couple of acres in the Yass Valley with intentions to build (utilising my wealth of knowledge gained through seven years of blood, sweat and tears). 
> Surprise the builders working out of canberra are charging up to $4400 per m2 (thats right - not per square - per square meter) 
> It costs 600k to build what can be built off the plan in Sydney for under 250k 
> Thoughts?????

  An article released in the Australian today has actually stated ACT is now the most expensive place to live in Australia;  *Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian* 
theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/home-minus-a-mortgage-becomes-a-distant-dream/story  And consider that the higher mortgages repayment of $2100pm in ACT are for a much smaller dwelling - *about a third* of the sydney sized home  _So the conclusion I have drawn here is that Canberians are paying the highest repayments for the smallest homes in Australia if they have a mortgage, the highest rent in Australia for the smallest homes and that is a result of the ridiculous building prices which has resulted from the huge disposable incomes with the average public servant couple on 120k each (240k PA), the consultant couple on close to 600k PA, builders on 500+PA and associated trades and earthmoving workers probably around 300k PA_. _Even on these salaries they are stuggling to bite into their mortgages._

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## intertd6

The real test is to try & get a bank to lend you the money for the build, if you take that quote to them they would be rolling around on the floor laughing.
regards inter

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## johnc

> The real test is to try & get a bank to lend you the money for the build, if you take that quote to them they would be rolling around on the floor laughing.
> regards inter

  I'd go with that there is no way tradies are getting $2,400 per day, if they were everyone would be heading to Canberra, if the OP wants to pay that much then look around at the price existing homes are selling for if it is close to land/building cost perhaps you are right, if not you would be trying to find a reason for being taken to the cleaners.

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## METRIX

> Hi all,  _First thread so please consider my inexperience._

   As you quote above, consider my inexperience, lets get some reality back into this forum.  The figures being bantered around on this forum are to be taken with a grain of salt. 
$2400 a day for the trades, this could be correct, but would be the combined income of all of them in the car, not one individual. 
Stamp duty of 60-80k ?, If the house was worth $1,300,000 and you were borrowing $1,100,000, the stamp duty including Registration and Transfer fees would be $70,103 for ACT, compared to $57,288.50 for Sydney which is also on par with QLD, in fact Victoria is the most expensive at $72,957.40, bearing in mind this is for a house of $1,300,000. 
If you are looking at your modest house of $480k, and borrowing $475K, then stamp duty in ACT is actually $25,278.40, this is a far cry from the figures quoted. 
As for the house being more expensive for m2 and block size, house prices are closely tied in with how expensive it is to live in a city, as of March 2012 the top 30 most expensive cities in the world, Sydney 11th, Melbourne 15th, Perth 19th and ACT 23rd !, so I find it hard to believe the figures you are quoting.  As of last week mediun house prices, Yes ACT is expensive but still not the most expensive  Sydney: $555,000Canberra: $495,000Melbourne: $490,000Darwin: $472,000Perth: $460,000Brisbane: $415,000Adelaide: $370,000Hobart: $350,000  
Sounds like you work for ACT tourism, and are trying to drum up interstate visitors to come and stay.

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## Wavenut

Hi all, 
After lengthy discussions with the wife, and noting how emotionally involved i was becoming attempting to make a square peg fit into a round hole we have decided to sell our vacant land near Canberra and return back to Sydney. 
Once back in Sydney I may embark in another 7 year renovation (god help us) or endeavor to build if we are able to afford it. My land budget is 600k, my building budget is 500k. 
Thank you to all whom have provided invaluable input into my post, as to those who have thanked me for some of the information I have relayed onto the post. 
Whilst I am really disappointed the tree change did not work out, I am sure i can find a happy medium back in the Sydney outskirts. 
PS. If I have offended anybody on the forum I sincerely apologize. 
Regards
Wavenut

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## barney118

Wavenut did you consider a kit home or relocate one and renovate?   
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## Wavenut

Hi there, 
Sure have - we have quotes here from three of the most well known kit home companies - all of which are too expensive. I.e Once completed will result in minus 200k negative equity. 
The sub division has by laws which prevent transportable homes. 
Thanks for your thoughts. 
Regards
Wavenut

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## barney118

Interesting subdivision no transportable homes? What's the difference in buying one off a block and changing the outside cladding to say brick and building one from scratch? Who would know if it were a relocated house or not.  
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## barney118

Having problems editing post. My inlaws moved a house and the cost was about 20k.most people are giving away houses the cost is in relocating.  
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## Wavenut

> Interesting subdivision no transportable homes? What's the difference in buying one off a block and changing the outside cladding to say brick and building one from scratch? Who would know if it were a relocated house or not.  
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  Barney, 
Yass Council mandates the use of a certifier (they recommend using theirs) for the DA process. They wont issue an occupancy certificate without the certifier taking responsibility of the construction adhering the the sub division by laws. Unfortunately there are no transportables allowed in the sub division.  
Regards
Wavenut

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## Wavenut

> I'd go with that there is no way tradies are getting $2,400 per day, if they were everyone would be heading to Canberra, if the OP wants to pay that much then look around at the price existing homes are selling for if it is close to land/building cost perhaps you are right, if not you would be trying to find a reason for being taken to the cleaners.

  Hi Johnc, 
The average price for an existing home in my area is between 700k to 800k. That is for a 12 to 16 year old place. The sixteen new homes built in the subdivision all cost over one million, made up of 300k for the land 600k for the build and 100k for the accessories (driveway, sewage and tanks and garage). Some of them were a little bit more, with the display home quoted at 350k for land and 705k for the build. Eight of the sixteen are now for sale - ranging from 990k to 1.2m. The majority of the families who committed to the build have found themselves in negative equity, with the final build valuations ranging from 600k to 800k. That is why they are trying to sell before the homes are repossessed.  
The $2400 per day was what two plasterers told me they were earning working on commercial projects. They were travelling from Harden to Dickson (1.5hrs each way) per day with the two of them car pooling. I clarified with them that they were both earning that - however they said they worked hard. I am not sure if part of that was traveling allowance.  
Regards
Wavenut

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## ringtail

> Hi Johnc, 
> The average price for an existing home in my area is between 700k to 800k. That is for a 12 to 16 year old place. The sixteen new homes built in the subdivision all cost over one million, made up of 300k for the land 600k for the build and 100k for the accessories (driveway, sewage and tanks and garage). Some of them were a little bit more, with the display home quoted at 350k for land and 705k for the build. Eight of the sixteen are now for sale - ranging from 990k to 1.2m. The majority of the families who committed to the build have found themselves in negative equity, with the final build valuations ranging from 600k to 800k. That is why they are trying to sell before the homes are repossessed.  
> The $2400 per day was what two plasterers told me they were earning working on commercial projects. They were travelling from Harden to Dickson (1.5hrs each way) per day with the two of them car pooling. I clarified with them that they were both earning that - however they said they worked hard. I am not sure if part of that was traveling allowance.  
> Regards
> Wavenut

   Christ, thats just out of control with the house prices to build.  
I dont give a stuff how hard those plasterers work, unless they are curing cancer at the same time that's highway robbery

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## Wavenut

> Christ, thats just out of control with the house prices to build.  
> I dont give a stuff how hard those plasterers work, unless they are curing cancer at the same time that's highway robbery

  Yeah mate i know, 
I am so disappointed - apologies if i went a bit hard a couple of days ago - i was getting so stressed 
We have had the block for close to four years and it was a great drive from Sydney to Yass to destress from the Sydney renovations, and to be honest during the seven year sydney reno the thought of moving to the country was the only thing that kept me going. 
We had planted close to 300 trees and installed taps and watering systems etc with the dreams of building there, but it all changed over the last four years it has just gone crazy down there and the dream has come to a sad and abrupt end. 
Spewin
Regards
Wavenut

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## TermiMonster

Why not hang on to the block for a while.  You never know, the prices (tradies) might come down in the next couple of years, and you might get a build at a more reasonable price.  You surely won't lose, as the market is not going up.....??
TM

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## barney118

> Barney, 
> Yass Council mandates the use of a certifier (they recommend using theirs) for the DA process. They wont issue an occupancy certificate without the certifier taking responsibility of the construction adhering the the sub division by laws. Unfortunately there are no transportables allowed in the sub division.  
> Regards
> Wavenut

  What is the definition of transportables? I am talking about a relocation of a existing house, modify on site to suit the subdivision DCP. Using their certifier seems to me as a closed shop situation, do as I say not as I do. The certifier responsibility is to the DCP and building code. 
 If you relocate a house and put it on piers is no different to building one from scratch, it is not a transportable. They can specify tile roof only, type of fence, setbacks building height etc but I couldnt see how you couldnt get around any of it.

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## Wavenut

> What is the definition of transportables? I am talking about a relocation of a existing house, modify on site to suit the subdivision DCP. Using their certifier seems to me as a closed shop situation, do as I say not as I do. The certifier responsibility is to the DCP and building code. 
>  If you relocate a house and put it on piers is no different to building one from scratch, it is not a transportable. They can specify tile roof only, type of fence, setbacks building height etc but I couldnt see how you couldnt get around any of it.

  Thanks Barney - I will look into the relocatable permanent fixture idea tomorrow. The way you put it might work?? I now understand what you meant. 
Thanks TM - the reason i thought of selling the vacant land is because i have had alot of interest from building companies - they want to buy it - i wanted them to build on it????

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## Wavenut

> What is the definition of transportables? I am talking about a relocation of a existing house, modify on site to suit the subdivision DCP. Using their certifier seems to me as a closed shop situation, do as I say not as I do. The certifier responsibility is to the DCP and building code. 
>  If you relocate a house and put it on piers is no different to building one from scratch, it is not a transportable. They can specify tile roof only, type of fence, setbacks building height etc but I couldnt see how you couldnt get around any of it.

  Hey Barney you got me thinking now so i pulled the "by laws" to re check;  _-"the owner of the land will not erect or place a transportable home on the lot"_ 
That's all it says - the rest of the banter has come from word of mouth ---------------- mate your on to it!!!!!!!!!!!! 
You beauty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Bloss

Wavenut - mate - get a grip: ya keep doin' that and you'll go blind. You buy a block of land with apparently little research in an estate, in the countryside which is populated with very large expensive houses, you take one example of 'two blokes in a pub' who tell you what a great racket they are on and say that's what everyone in Canberra is getting then when you are give evidence that what you are saying is rubbish you drag up one item from 2 years ago from a blog that has no credibility and is little more than a gossip site - and what you quoted are exactly the prices per m2 I said were the go in the ACT (BTW do you recall I said that incomes in the ACT are 16% higher - that usually means prices are higher too we have what's called a capitalist market economy, my recollection is that the USSR experiment didn't turn out all that well). Then you say BASIX is a big cost factor and that's a whole of NSW requirement (and not in the ACT, although there are ACT rules of course). Then when the evidence is presented you try changing direction. 
Prices in Yass have gone DOWN in the last few years - see here: Yass (NSW 2582) Suburb Information | allhomes - the peak was 2006 - you bought at close to the top of the  market for land! If you look at the top 50 property (Residential) sales ever Yass (NSW 2582) Top 50 Sales Information | allhomes there are some big numbers, but more than half are owned by absentee landlords and/or super rich buggers (eg: Cavan is Rupert Murdoch's place) and I know plenty of the others too of similar ilk who have bought and paid big in Yass shire, but these sorts of numbers do not match with your claims.  
I have no sympathy with anyone who can't fund their mortgage or get negative equity - all that means is they borrowed too much and took too great a risk - looks like you might have done too. Property, like all investments grow on average over time at around 5-7% annually - the market has been sitting well above that for way to many years and was always due for a correction. Nothing keeps going only one way  - the averages mean they go up  and then down. And this is a time of record low interest rates and pretty much full employment - I was around when they were 17% for me and some were paying 22% ie: doubling the debt every 5-6 years! 
If price is an issue talk to one of these guys: Lloyds Homes - Local Transportable Homes For You or Austwide Homes :: Our Transportable Homes or Betterlook Homes - Quality Transportable Homes For You - all from Wagga and all do OK homes to a price. 
So good luck in Sydney, but I reckon your glass will always seem half empty to you.

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## Wavenut

> Wavenut - mate - get a grip: ya keep doin' that and you'll go blind. You buy a block of land with apparently little research in an estate, in the countryside which is populated with very large expensive houses, you take one example of 'two blokes in a pub' who tell you what a great racket they are on and say that's what everyone in Canberra is getting then when you are give evidence that what you are saying is rubbish you drag up one item from 2 years ago from a blog that has no credibility and is little more than a gossip site - and what you quoted are exactly the prices per m2 I said were the go in the ACT (BTW do you recall I said that incomes in the ACT are 16% higher - that usually means prices are higher too we have what's called a capitalist market economy, my recollection is that the USSR experiment didn't turn out all that well). Then you say BASIX is a big cost factor and that's a whole of NSW requirement (and not in the ACT, although there are ACT rules of course). Then when the evidence is presented you try changing direction. 
> Prices in Yass have gone DOWN in the last few years - see here: Yass (NSW 2582) Suburb Information | allhomes - the peak was 2006 - you bought at close to the top of the  market for land! If you look at the top 50 property (Residential) sales ever Yass (NSW 2582) Top 50 Sales Information | allhomes there are some big numbers, but more than half are owned by absentee landlords and/or super rich buggers (eg: Cavan is Rupert Murdoch's place) and I know plenty of the others too of similar ilk who have bought and paid big in Yass shire, but these sorts of numbers do not match with your claims.  
> I have no sympathy with anyone who can't fund their mortgage or get negative equity - all that means is they borrowed too much and took too great a risk - looks like you might have done too. Property, like all investments grow on average over time at around 5-7% annually - the market has been sitting well above that for way to many years and was always due for a correction. Nothing keeps going only one way  - the averages mean they go up  and then down. And this is a time of record low interest rates and pretty much full employment - I was around when they were 17% for me and some were paying 22% ie: doubling the debt every 5-6 years! 
> If price is an issue talk to one of these guys: Lloyds Homes - Local Transportable Homes For You or Austwide Homes :: Our Transportable Homes or Betterlook Homes - Quality Transportable Homes For You - all from Wagga and all do OK homes to a price. 
> So good luck in Sydney, but I reckon your glass will always seem half empty to you.

  *Bloss - why are you so mean to me - you come across as the biggest bully you know - you hurt my feelings with your comments.  
All i did was pass on the prices in my quotes, what the tradies had told me and what was provided to me from my lawyer (regarding the stamp duty) onto the forum. 
You are so mean*  :Annoyed:

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## barney118

> Hey Barney you got me thinking now so i pulled the "by laws" to re check;  _-"the owner of the land will not erect or place a transportable home on the lot"_ 
> That's all it says - the rest of the banter has come from word of mouth ---------------- mate your on to it!!!!!!!!!!!! 
> You beauty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  You have to love "wording" of things. Check the legal term of this, what is defined as transportable? Any house is transportable, I cant see why you couldn't "dismantle" (cut in half) a house and then "erect" the house and modify and finish. I can only think that maybe a house built on a slab wouldn't be transportable or would it? Anything is possible...good luck :Biggrin:

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## Bloss

> You have to love "wording" of things. Check the legal term of this, what is defined as transportable? Any house is transportable, I cant see why you couldn't "dismantle" (cut in half) a house and then "erect" the house and modify and finish. I can only think that maybe a house built on a slab wouldn't be transportable or would it? Anything is possible...good luck

  Well no - again this sort of caveat on the land is very common in estates to ensure the quality and value of the estate stays high. There are many which also place restrictions on size, height, finishes (so cladding type & colour etc). 
Funnily enough this is all made very clear to buyers in brochures and for certain in any sales docs and contract, but buyers have to read and understand of course. Go into one of the biggest investments in your life with eyes wide shut and tears will be the result. 
In this case it is a pity as a quality transportable might have offered a solution - a reasonable quality at a reasonable price. These sorts of caveats are blunt instruments though - for example excludes fully factory built houses which are high quality, but assembled on site not built on site.

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## Wavenut

I am still going to look into the transportable - sounds like a good idea 
Had another quote come in this morning, this is the cheapest by far, it is for a 185m2
Works out around $2075m2 with curtains etc not taking into account the sewage and water tanks
House $247,750
+ Site Cost 25,000
+ Basix 12,000
+ Double Glazing 18,000
+ Flooring 27,000
+ Curtains 7,000
+ Painting 9,000
+ Heating/Cooling 12,000
+ Garage 26,000
+ Sewage Tanks 22,000
+ Water Tanks 35,000 
TOTAL $440,750

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## autogenous

In Perth you can have your 165m2 house built for about $175000

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## manofaus

wow... sewerage is 22K... a wastewater treatment system is about 7-8k, your water tanks for 100kl is 9k for a steel job, you could save that and get it done outside a contract.... Its funny that you are getting double glazing and water tanks and they are still charging you for basix. Basix is a rip too, not the idea, but the fact they want to charge 10k for it when most of the items needed to comply are usually specified in the sale contract for a standard home. Retards. Thats the killer with all these house builders, home is cheap, they rip you with the 'extras', either that or they are under quoting the cost of construction to lure you into there domain.

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