# Forum Home Renovation Waterproofing  Failed waterproofing on new house balcony - NO INSURANCE!

## viiking

Long story. We bought a new build double story house (one of 4 in a development) with a part exposed and part covered 1st floor balcony, constructed out of compressed fibro covered with tiles. After a few months the balcony leaked into the ground floor garage and front room. On inspection from underneath it is apparent that the waterproofing over the sheet joints and other penetrations has failed. 
We find out that the Builder went broke at lock up stage, did not pay the waterproofer, waterproofer refused to issue waterproofing certificate because he didn't get paid. By Freedom of Information request we found out that Council somehow gave a building certificate to a new developer who completed the house and was on-sold to me with the required Builders Insurance Policy attached to the Contract for Sale. At the sale we did not know that the original builder had gone broke and our inspections did not show any damage at the time. 
When we found out the problem, we approached the Builder's Insurance underwriter only to find out that the Insurance Policy attached to the Contract for Sale was never paid for, so in fact invalid. No insurance and no way to get the original builder to pay for the damage as he had gone broke (but had restarted another business with another similar name). Waterproofer wouldn't help as he claimed his waterproofing must have been damaged by the new developer who completed the building. Anyway he never issued a certificate so it's not compliant. Everyone washes their hands and as far as I am concerned the council was complicit in this. 
Approached the Department of Fair Trading who investigated it all and basically said that all of what I has said was correct but their hands were tied and they could not get anything done!! Even though there is a provision under the Builder's Insurance scheme which is supposed to protect consumers in the event that a builder goes broke - exactly what happened in our case. 
So our only option is to take legal action against the developer for fraud (because of an invalid insurance policy attached to the Contract for Sale). I am not willing to do this as the cost of doing this will be too high and the developer I am sure will have better legal people than what I can afford. 
So the innocent pay again for the mistakes of the guilty. And some tradesmen complain on this website that we should be employing "the professionals". Unfortunately the rotten ones tarnish all the good ones and it is no wonder people end up doing so much DIY! 
I have just retired so I cannot afford, nor do I want to take the risk, of using another tradesman to repair the problem so I will have to do the job myself. I've done a lot of handy work building, tiling and waterproofing of showers at least. 
What I have to do is to remove the 30m2 of tiles of the balcony, re-waterproof then retile. 
Q. As I will be slow at doing this, what sort of waterproofing compounds do people recommend I use that can be left exposed on the uncovered part of the balcony for a few weeks while I tile the rest, but at the same time not allowing any water ingress to the rooms below? During this period I cannot guarantee that we will not be hit with rain. 
Also are all of these waterproofing membranes compatible with standard cement based tile adhesives. 
Sorry for the long diatribe and thanks for any assistance you can give me.

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## Blocker

I would suggest looking for a specialist tile retailer/trade outlet nearest to home,and explain your situation.They may be able to assist with a diy solution.
Regards,
Blocker.

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## DavoSyd

but the council let it go? 
chase that lead:  https://www.olg.nsw.gov.au/public/my...h-your-council  https://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/what-we-...cal-government 
also- what did DoFT exactly say?

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## viiking

DoFT said that our best option was to take legal action, but as I have explained that is too costly. It's not that they didn't investigate, but the situation was so unusual I don't think they wanted to know or could do anything. So much for the requirement to have building insurance. I wonder how many claims actually get honoured. 
The only reason I got the information I did from the councils was to apply for information by FOI request. My first casual requests gave blanks. It wasn't until I made a formal request that I got SOME information regarding the reason that the waterproofer wouldn't give a certificate. I received some letters and information with sections blanked out (redacted).  
I realise that the council has done wrong as well, but the last thing I can afford is for me to get them offside by my going to the ombudsman. For example they may now tell me that the building doesn't have approved waterproofing and I need to get it all re-done. At my expense. Perhaps "let sleeping dogs lie". 
I realise that is a bit of a cop out on my part, but I don't want the stress of having to deal with this. I just want to fix it.

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## johnc

Been in a similar situation but not as expensive, it just isn't cost effective to chase it as you have obviously discovered. I agree just fix it which is what we did. The builders tiler did his own waterproofing, no certificate etc. 
I would suss out a tile shop as well and ask what to use, if they can't help or your aren't comfortable with the reply go to another one. Also look up the Australian standard, it may assist in explaining what went wrong and what you need to do correctly.

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## viiking

I’ve finally started this project and need more advice.
I approached a couple of tile shops for advice and got the advice to use Ardex WPM155 Rapid. I contacted Ardex and got more technical advice that convinced me it was the way to go. Based on this I purchased sufficient product to do the base waterproofing in two coats.
When I removed some of the tiles I found a blue green membrane which appears to be liquid rubber and in very good shape. Above this was a screed layer which was totally saturated. Above this was a very thin white waterproofing layer which clearly wasn’t doing its job otherwise the screed would have been drier. In places the screed was nothing but sand and others hard like concrete. The edge of the balcony did not drain the excess water away due to poor workmanship and resulted in most of my leaks at the edge. There was no drip point and the waterproofing was not carried over the edge steel support beam but rather terminated at the edge of the compressed fibro sheet. This allowed water to wick down between the floor sheeting and subsequently back into the soffits. The steel beam was rusty and all of the timbers underneath were rotted and had to be replaced. All of this original work was done by a licensed waterproofer and builder. No wonder they went broke! 
So my new question is do I remove the rubber membrane completely back to the compressed fibro or can I prime and go over the rubber membrane with the WPM? I know Ardex will say remove it but it looks in really good shape and removing it could be problematic. Given that some tiling solutions are to use plastic sheeting as a slip layer I would think adhesion is not an issue as long as the new membrane is intact and there is no reaction between the two membranes. Given the WPM is water based I don’t think there would be a reaction.
The alternative is to purchase something like Gripset Betta liquid rubber waterproofing and go over the existing rubber membrane and keep the WPM for the over screed waterproofing membrane. 
Thanks in advance.

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## sol381

Should be chasing up the certifier and local council who approved the final certificate. In qld the qbcc insurance is paid before work starts and covers instances like this, builder going broke. they would have paid for this. Seems like a strange system down there. It is more than clear that something dodgy has been done and work hasnt been done the australian standard. You shouldnt have to pay for any of this.

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## viiking

> Should be chasing up the certifier and local council who approved the final certificate. In qld the qbcc insurance is paid before work starts and covers instances like this, builder going broke. they would have paid for this. Seems like a strange system down there. It is more than clear that something dodgy has been done and work hasnt been done the australian standard. You shouldnt have to pay for any of this.

  Please read my rationale in the post above. The material cost of repair for me will be in the region of $6k plus my time. The cost of engaging a solicitor and taking action with no guarantee of success is not worth my stress both financial and mental. 
The whole situation sucks and with all the protections that the government espouses there are still people like me who get hurt. Everyone was complicit in this. I want to make people aware that situations like this exist. 
So back to any help on my waterproofing,

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## sol381

.

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## sol381

Jeez what kind of building protection do they have down there. If your only recourse is  fair trading then theres something wrong. Shame you didnt build in qld. wouldnt  have to engage a solicitor or spend any money. just one call to the qbcc. Anyway good luck with it all. Crappy situation youre in. Btw, if i were you id engage your own waterproofer. Doing it yourself is a bad idea. Has to be done properly and if youve never done it before you could be ripping it up again after the next storm.

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## Marc

"Builder's insurance" is a misnomer since it is not to insure the builder but a tax to empower someone to chase the builder. If the builder goes broke no one will ever pay a thing.
Get a tradesman to do the job, don't improvise. You have already to deal with a loss, don't add more to it.

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## viiking

Well a tradesman _did_ do this job! I can't afford to get anyone else to do this work. I'm not a novice at building or waterproofing although I haven't done a balcony before. I've tried to get other waterproofers to do the job, but as soon as I tell them the story, they lose interest as if it is too much trouble. They can make a lot more money with a quick 2 hour waterproofing job on a shower stall. 
I tend to over engineer everything I do. If I screw it up then I can only blame my own skills. It's a chance I want to take. 
I am just asking for any experience with the type of waterproofing membrane I am installing, that others may have in this area to essentially validate what I'm doing.

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## phild01

I used Crommelin on my deck without an issue. Take care where bond breakers are needed. I would also test compatibility with any of the original waterproofing if going over it.

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## intertd6

WTF! You have been ceremoniously fobbed off by the certifying body who is supposed to stop this sort of thing happening, they have failed,  call a current affairs tv program & tell them your plight, you are victim a giant bureaucratic stuff up, fix the defect it if you want to , but keep chasing it , otherwise it's just going to keep happening to others.
inter

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## Spottiswoode

As much as I loathe A Current Affair it is possibly worth going to some form of journalist/media. They seem to like the hard done by little guy who’s been ripped off by tradies. It’s also possible that the same builders have done the same things to others.

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## intertd6

> As much as I loathe A Current Affair it is possibly worth going to some form of journalist/media. They seem to like the hard done by little guy whos been ripped off by tradies. Its also possible that the same builders have done the same things to others.

  A current affairs program by definition could be one if many.
inter

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## viiking

After further discussions I have decided to rip up the existing rubber membrane. Most people are advising that it’s just not worth the risk of trying to go over it particularly if water has got under it which it has in a couple of places. 
So my plan of attack is to remove the existing rubber membrane and recoat with Crommelin Wetite which is an cSBR rubber membrane, then lay a screed to provide the correct fall, then use the WPM155 that I have already bought as the membrane below the tiles. I think this will give me the double protection I’m looking for. 
Now many say that a membrane above and below the screed is an overkill but having seen how much water was trapped between the tiles and the rubber membrane and how the screed was in places washed out of cement I will never doubt the necessity of double membraning again.

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## phild01

Why not just go over the screed and not worry about lifting the original leaking waterproofing. You are anticipating the top w/p failing and the lower w/p defending that possibility but the reality is it will hold water in the screed if that happened. I would just screed over what is there and focus on doing a proper waterproof membrane over that. But doubled waterproofing will likely ensure water not going through but possibility of drenched screed.

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## viiking

Thanks for your input. The current screed in places is virtually nothing but sand now. The screed would have to be replaced anyway. 
The bottom membrane terminates and drains separately and with a gap between the drainage points of the top and bottom layer allows the screed to drain should it become wet. What I don’t know is how damaged the bottom rubber membrane is and how much water is under it. That’s why I’m just going to restart and  if there’s a leak down the track I can only blame the bloody idiot who’s done the job not a professional licensed waterproofer.

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## phild01

What I am indicating is remove all the existing screed without labouring over the existing waterproofing. Lay a new screed and waterproof properly over that AFTER that new screed has fully cured (at least a few weeks). To test the screed, lay plastic sheeting over it  and is ready for waterproofing when condensation no longer settles under the plastic given a day or two.

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## johnc

> After further discussions I have decided to rip up the existing rubber membrane. Most people are advising that it’s just not worth the risk of trying to go over it particularly if water has got under it which it has in a couple of places. 
> So my plan of attack is to remove the existing rubber membrane and recoat with Crommelin Wetite which is an cSBR rubber membrane, then lay a screed to provide the correct fall, then use the WPM155 that I have already bought as the membrane below the tiles. I think this will give me the double protection I’m looking for. 
> Now many say that a membrane above and below the screed is an overkill but having seen how much water was trapped between the tiles and the rubber membrane and how the screed was in places washed out of cement I will never doubt the necessity of double membraning again.

  Yes in your situation double membrane should give the safest result. Certainly as a minimum there should be a waterproofing layer between tile and screed, you can also look at an additive to the screed to reduce moisture transfer through that layer as well.

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## David.Elliott

What I find most interesting in all this, while of absolutely no assistance to the OP, are the following points... 
1: On the 4 Corners program investigating the Opal Towers and Mascot Towers plus the other debacles shows the number one problem that arises is water, whether from inside, or out. 
2: I have one daughter that purchased a brand new apartment here in Perth. With the first rains a stain appeared in the shared landing between her and the next apartment. Calls to the strata manager got replies there is no money to fix it. The builder had also gone broke. Additional calls to strata informing them of the worsening stain elicited the same responses. Eventually during a large storm a large (huge) piece of the ceiling came down, the strata called emergency plumbers who got onto the two storey steel roof DURING the storm to find there was no flashing between a wall and roof cladding. Who knows how much that cost. Then there were no funds to fix the ceiling. 
3: Same daughter had a burst pipe under the shared drive/parking area that delivered the water to her apartment. No water for two days.  Strata had to pick up the tab, as the plumbers for the build did not get total payment and so provided no warranty. 
4: Number 2 daughter and fiance live in a several year old apartment close to the city. Tilt up construction. Their bedroom floor gets wet every time it rains moderately hard. They have replaced the carpet 4 times on insurance after every remediation attempt. 5 tries over 4 years, still not fixed. Builder also "went broke" after completion. 
Anyone else see a pattern?

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## phild01

It might raise the question to the OP how structurally sound is their construction. If there is excessive movements then any waterproofing may be breached.

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## viiking

Rest of the house is fine. It was one dud waterproofing job on the our balcony and not the other three properties on the block. Regardless the whole insurance saga is a complete smoke and mirrors to bring in a lot of money for someone with very little being paid out. The other three owners were completely unaware that they too
jad no builders insurance but at this stage their properties are not affected.

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## viiking

Here r a few photos of the damage. The last one shows a pile of rust and garbage from the steel beam holding up the floor. Clearly the waterproofing hasn’t worked. I caught it just in time

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## phild01

If that is a cement sheet deck then I am wondering why there is a screed unless the deck wraps around the house. Bit hard to tell but the leakage looks to be where the sheets meet so was there a bond breaker bandage in that area?
And where you have pulled it apart was there a drip sill edge there?

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## phild01

No, that looks a rotten job done there, can't see any evidence of waterproofing where you pulled the front sheeting away either.

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## Marc

You will need to get stuck into that steel beam before you cover it up again. A needle gun and a compressor will make short work of rust and peeling paint. After that, cold gal and epoxy primer. Best of luck. You should call the ACCC/Fair trading NSW, that issued the license to that builder, to stop him doing this again under another name.

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## viiking

> If that is a cement sheet deck then I am wondering why there is a screed unless the deck wraps around the house. Bit hard to tell but the leakage looks to be where the sheets meet so was there a bond breaker bandage in that area?
> And where you have pulled it apart was there a drip sill edge there?

  A screed installed to provide fall. They even got this wrong and it was much less than 1:100. No drip edge that’s why it saturated the edge and all the timber work below.

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## viiking

> You will need to get stuck into that steel beam before you cover it up again. A needle gun and a compressor will make short work of rust and peeling paint. After that, cold gal and epoxy primer. Best of luck. You should call the ACCC/Fair trading NSW, that issued the license to that builder, to stop him doing this again under another name.

  I’ve already repaired and treated the steelwork. 
Read the whole post and you can see that Fair Trading couldn’t or wouldn’t resolve.
As far as I know the builder restarted under another name and continues to build.

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## Marc

You need to be creative. Go to the media, radio, tv programs. They will lap the story up.

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## havabeer

what a schmozzle of situation. i'm with the others, i'd call every local radion and tv station and tell them your plight. 
we made a claim in NSW through builders warranty insurance on our house, they paid out like $70,000 worth of work (two bath rooms, balcony and some other bits). the main reason they pretty much paid out was because the builder was dead. he actually died like 2 months before we put the claim in, we didn't know he had died. 
it does sound like you've been fobbed off because someone has stuffed up by giving a certificate of compliance when it wasn't.

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## viiking

Just to keep this updated. Removed the existing tiles and screed which was totally saturated and virtually without cement. Been delayed by the virus lockdown but I’ve got three good coats of Crommelin Wet Tite on the balcony. There’s been some heavy rain and no leaks. Next step us to put down a screed with 1:100 fall then waterproof over this again. I’m determined that this will not ever leak again. 
I just hope the balcony will support the 1500 kg of screed and tiles over 30m2. It should be ok as there was a waterlogged screed there before but not quite as thick.

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## havabeer

Was there any hint of the insurers dealing with it

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## METRIX

This might be the same builder who built these set of places, these were in North Rocks.
We were doing some work there and I noticed the place next door has a few issues with the balcony, you can see the bend in the balcony won't be long before it collapses 
The story was the Builder went broke half way through, then Dyldam bought the failed site and finished the job, looks like they didn't finish it too well.
The owner told us on moving in, she ran a bath and when she pulled the plug out the water came pouring out from under the bath, upon investigation the bath was never connected !!!!!! 
Don't know who did the repairs on the bath, but they were dodgy as, just look at the villaboard holes, surely they must have a $10 holesaw to cut through instead of that dodgy job they did..

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## viiking

No they just said that a policy was asked for and quoted, a certificate issued but the builder never paid for the insurance, so the insurance certificate was null-and-void. Can't blame them.

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## viiking

Just to keep the thread going for anyone who in the future has similar problems, I tried to remove the rubbery waterproofing but it just wouldn't move. I tried 40 grit on a 9" grinder, concrete levelling disc on a 4" grinder, strip disc, chisel, sharp blade and nothing would move it. I spent an hour on one or two sections and was unable to move even a 150mm x 150mm section. 
So, I tested a few patches for a week or so with Cromellin Wet Tite and the adhesion was fine. I tested with both primed and non-primed areas and did not see a difference in adhesion. I was concerned that the primer which is essentially a water-based acrylic might re-dissolve in any wet rain before I could get the membrane on so I did not use any primer, just went over the top with three good coats and used reinforcing mesh over the areas where you could see the sheet joints showing through the original waterproofing.  
Only issue has been the lousy weather and humidity meaning I needed three days without rain, because the waterproofing was taking so long to dry where it was thick. The first coat got rained on, on the first evening (despite looking at the BOM rain radar every hour) and I was left with areas which re-emulsified and turned milky. I rang Cromellin and they said it would be OK, to just let it dry. 
I ran a large fan over the balcony for the rest of the next day and it dried fine. I gave it another 2 coats to get a full wet coat thickness as required. I could not apply it thick enough in two coats and hoped it would dry, so it got the third coat. You know you haven't applied it thick enough when the little thickness gauge doesn't get wet and you still have one drum left over from the 4 you bought. A week on and with torrential rain, the waterproofing is holding up fine.  
I will use however the primer additive in the screed to impart some water resistance to the screed, before overcoating with the WPM. Then lay the tiles with epoxy grout. 
Some may ask why I will use the two different manufacturers for the under and over-screed membranes and the simple answer is availability, plus I got a much better price on the Cromellin by going direct to Cromellin instead of buying via a tile place or Bun-yips. I also thought that the WPM which is a polyurethane type coating would be more resilient under the tiles where you might puncture the membrane through the notched trowel. I had already bought the WPM before I saw how bad the original screed and waterproofing was. I thought I would only need one layer of WP'g.

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## viiking

> This might be the same builder who built these set of places, these were in North Rocks.
> We were doing some work there and I noticed the place next door has a few issues with the balcony, you can see the bend in the balcony won't be long before it collapses 
> The story was the Builder went broke half way through, then Dyldam bought the failed site and finished the job, looks like they didn't finish it too well.
> The owner told us on moving in, she ran a bath and when she pulled the plug out the water came pouring out from under the bath, upon investigation the bath was never connected !!!!!! 
> Don't know who did the repairs on the bath, but they were dodgy as, just look at the villaboard holes, surely they must have a $10 holesaw to cut through instead of that dodgy job they did..

   Yes I know where this site is. It's not far from me.  
I had additional problems with electrics in mine which I have not dwelled on. I was asked to pull out the bottom drawer of a kitchen cupboard to clean out some sawdust that had been left in there. No big deal. Pulled the drawer out, stuck my hand in with a hand broom and bang, the safety switch blew. 
On inspection an unterminated power cable had been left in the void of the drawer. The cable had been stripped ready for connection i.e. the wires were exposed and live, not just cut through. It appears that someone decided to not install the GPO because the location of the dishwasher provision changed. 
All this work was done by the professionals. Wonder why non-tradesmen will have a go themselves to build things?

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## craka

> Yes I know where this site is. It's not far from me.  
> I had additional problems with electrics in mine which I have not dwelled on. I was asked to pull out the bottom drawer of a kitchen cupboard to clean out some sawdust that had been left in there. No big deal. Pulled the drawer out, stuck my hand in with a hand broom and bang, the safety switch blew. 
> On inspection an unterminated power cable had been left in the void of the drawer. The cable had been stripped ready for connection i.e. the wires were exposed and live, not just cut through. It appears that someone decided to not install the GPO because the location of the dishwasher provision changed. 
> All this work was done by the professionals. Wonder why non-tradesmen will have a go themselves to build things?

  Farrrk I wouldn't want to be the sparkie that signed off on that. Christ.

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## METRIX

> Yes I know where this site is. It's not far from me.

  Yep, right on that corner, from memory there was about five or six of these places in this block, they were all made by a rubbish builder. 
I felt sorry for the owners, as it was a hard luck story that they ended up in one of these places as they were going cheap, they wish they had never bought it soon after moving in.

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