# Forum Home Renovation Asbestos  Probability of asbestos under my lino sheeting - with photo!

## Cloudy

Hi there all. 
I am in the planning stage of pulling up our lino sheeting (not tiles) in the kitchen, pulling up the masonite and exposing the floor boards underneath. Never done it before. 
I am just concerned about the asbestos risk and even though I realise no one can be 100% sure, I'd like some responses from people in the know... aka: YOU ALL!   The house was built in the outskirts of Perth around 1960.Before the lino there was ceramic tiles on the masonite.Lino was put down in the 80s we know that. Was it prior to 1984? I don't know for sure but it definitely wasn't before 1980. The family guesses late 1980s.There is no flakey papery material under the lino sheeting. It is stuck down with some sort of glue to the masonite. But as seen from the photo, there is some brown stuff sticking to the lino. Not sure if its masonite or something else. I burnt it and it turned to ash.The masonite is nailed down, not stapled.  
Anyway, see the photo and let me know what the probability is of there being asbestos.  http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10190.jpg 
I am guessing (or more like hoping) that under the masonite are the floor boards! Is this common practice? I'll search now for threads about the best way to actually do this whole process!!  :Smilie:  
Great site btw, and thanks in advance everyone.

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## Bedford

It's vinyl not lino, and the brown stuff is glue.  Pegulan - The Leaders in Vinyl Floor Coverings. True quality never goes out of Style 
If you can get under the house you'll see if they're floorboards or not.

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## Cloudy

> If you can get under the house you'll see if they're floorboards or not.

  Sorry, I meant is it normal that the layering is vinyl, masonite, floorboards? Just if anyone knew. I am just guessing the masonite will lift off easily after removing the nails to expose clean floor boards. But I am concerned a little. My father says the reason the masonite was put down was because the floor boards did not make a flat surface for the tiles. I'm not sure if this means they are just a little uneven or a lot. Anyway, sorry a bit off topic.

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## Bedford

Yep, it's normal to have the Masonite underlay under vinyl, it evens out the floorboards and also stops any joins in the floorboards making lines in the vinyl from movement. 
The underlay is probably nailed down with ring type nails about 150mm apart in both directions, so will probably leave a lot of nail holes as it comes up.

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## Cloudy

Great thanks for the quick replies. I can move on to the next step (new thread made)  
Cheers.

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## goldie1

Lots of vinyl sheet flooring had asbestos in the backing. The top layer was vinyl laminated to a thicker backing (about 1.5mm thick) 
Its the right age to be asbestos but as there were many manufacturers  of vinyl flooring ( lots was imported  from Europe and 
America ) and not all used asbestos the only way to be sure is to get it tested

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## Bloss

The floor as Bedford says has masonite underlay sheet to which could be nailed or stapled and the glue is visible too. Glue likely to be latex based. The asbestos in vinyl sheeting is not hazardous - it is bound and at low levels and difficult to turn into aerosol or loose fibres. 
One thing which needs to be emphasised and in my experience neither mentioned or practiced is the wearing of a decent mask for ALL demolition/ renovation work as well as any activity involving creation of dusts of any type. That reduces any unwitting exposure to asbestos fibres, but ALL dust are unhealthy and are not meant to be in our bodies! 
I wear a mask when spreading mulch in the garden, when working with wood in the shed (using power tools, not hand tools), when knocking down walls or other bits of building, climbing in ceilings or under floors, when lifting carpet, vinyl or other flooring - and so on. 
Unsurprisingly there is a culture of 'macho' that means for the 15 or 20 years I have been doing this as standard practice I have been subject to various levels of negativity for it ranging from light-hearted ribbing to seriously offensive jibes - so i know how peer pressure can work and also how it can seem inconvenient and is often uncomfortable.  
But having seen lingering slow and painful deaths from various workplace diseases most of which were preventable it seems a small price to pay - so mask up . . .

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## goldie1

:What he said:   You can pull the masonite and vinyl up in one piece with out disturbing the vinyl by cutting the vinyl near  
the masonite joins ( old flooring masonite was in 1200x900 sheets ) and getting a garden spade under the   
masonite

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## Cloudy

Great idea Goldie, I will try and get the masonite up with the vinyl still attached. It should save a lot of hassle! 
Bloss I understand where you are coming from. I'm in a farming community and there are way too many that don't use masks in dusty conditions. Thanks, I'll definitely mask up.

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## Cloudy

I just pulled up some more masonite from another area and wanted to show you what I found.  
The vinyl isn't really stuck down at all in this area. I pulled up the brown masonite but under this is another type of thin grey material. Is this just more masonite? Its like cardboard but can be peeled apart.   http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10314.jpg

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## Bloss

That stuff does not look at all good. Most likely just whatever is left of the former floor covering and they've put the hardboard underlay straight over it, but who knows. In any case the action is the same - you should be wearing a disposable suit and masks while doing this work, then wrapping all the stuff in black plastic and disposing of it properly your local council should info on its website. No other people should be around either of course and vacuuming at the end of each session of work into disposable bags using a HEPA filtered cleaner too.

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## Cloudy

Thanks Bloss. I feel like some of the interest has gone out of this activity  :Cry: . The grey sheeting also seems to be stuck down in random spots so it may not come up nicely. You may be able to pick up on this in these next group of shots:  http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10322.jpg http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10321.jpg http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10320.jpg http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10318.jpg http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10316.jpg http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/v...7/SDC10315.jpg 
I may have a bloke coming up who deals in floorboard renos to give me a quote on the sanding and maybe he can offer more advice. I know I can take the precautions as stated above but its just fazed me slightly atm.

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## woodbe

Dunno what that stuff is, but I'd be getting it tested just to be sure. 
Looks like some sort of cardboard... 
woodbe.

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## Black Cat

Not sure what the grey stuff is, but the floor itself looks as if it has been altered at some time - perhaps a wall taken out or similar? What do you know of the history of the house and previous alterations?

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## goldie1

There was a type of vinyl back in the 60s called "rossella" It had a thin layer of vinyl with a thin layer of backing which was 
like carpet underfelt made of jute. It was glued down and when came time to remove it the vinyl top layer came up and the 
underfelt layer stayed on the floor. Allso lino underlays where used. They were like a thick piece of cardboard/blotting paper 
I would say its one or the other but its impossible to say from a photo. Get it tested to be sure 
The glued down vinyl in your very first post is from the 80s. The non glued vinyl in the other photos( the one with the 
name on the back) is lay flat vinyl which is fairly new proberbly from the  90s

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## Bloss

Yep - had 'rossella' in a house in the 60s and it was a great product (should have remembered that myself!). It had generally had a brown underfelt attached, but not universally - and did not have asbestos in it. 
But those pics are not of that product, but of rolled vinyl sheeting - most of which did not have asbestos, but some did (in small proportions). Not sure why you'd be bothered testing - remove using proper procedures - read the stickies for info CLICK HERE - and "don't panic!".

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## Cloudy

> There was a type of vinyl back in the 60s called "rossella" ...
> The glued down vinyl in your very first post is from the 80s. The non glued vinyl in the other photos( the one with the name on the back) is lay flat vinyl which is fairly new proberbly from the  90s

  Thanks Goldie, you are spot on in that there was vinyl originally on top of the grey material. I have just found out some more history of the floor.  
1. House built in late 50s/early 60s. Grey material placed on exposed floor boards and vinyl put down. 
2. 1960s - lino was pulled up leaving the grey material behind. Masonite was placed on top, then tiles.
3. 1980s - tiled pulled up. Vinyl placed down.
4. 2011 - idiot comes along wanting to uncover the floorboards.  
Btw, strange how the grey material, as seen, has left the floorboards looking white.   

> Yep - had 'rossella' in a house in the 60s and it  was a great product (should have remembered that myself!). It had  generally had a brown underfelt attached, but not universally - and did  not have asbestos in it. 
> But those pics are not of that product, but of rolled vinyl sheeting -  most of which did not have asbestos, but some did (in small  proportions). Not sure why you'd be bothered testing - remove using  proper procedures - read the stickies for info CLICK HERE - and "don't panic!".

  Thanks Bloss. Well you could be right about the testing. If it is asbestos I should wear protective clothing and mask, if it isn't I should wear protective clothing and mask.

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## goldie1

> Thanks Goldie, you are spot on in that there was vinyl originally on top of the grey material. I have just found out some more history of the floor.  
> 1. House built in late 50s/early 60s. Grey material placed on exposed floor boards and vinyl put down. 
> 2. 1960s - lino was pulled up leaving the grey material behind. Masonite was placed on top, then tiles.
> 3. 1980s - tiled pulled up. Vinyl placed down.
> 4. 2011 - idiot comes along wanting to uncover the floorboards.  
> Btw, strange how the grey material, as seen, has left the floorboards looking white.   
> Thanks Bloss. Well you could be right about the testing. If it is asbestos I should wear protective clothing and mask, if it isn't I should wear protective clothing and mask.

  You missed one date some time in the 90s some of the 80s glue down vinyl was pulled up ( you can see the old trowel marks 
on the masonite) and the lay flat Pegulon vinyl was layed unglued over the old masonite. We should be on "Time Team". 
The white on the boards could be some thing to do with the glue used. Agree with Bloss about the testing. Just assume 
it is and act accordingly.  The old "rossella " product  the felt backing and the vinyl surface were one piece. They just 
split when you tried to pull them up.

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## goldie1

Bloss I still think thats rosella backing . Have a look in the 3rd pic in the group of 6. Another product from those days 
was feltex , it was a thin felt, like hats were made of but don't think thats it

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## Bloss

> Bloss I still think thats rosella backing . Have a look in the 3rd pic in the group of 6. Another product from those days 
> was feltex , it was a thin felt, like hats were made of but don't think thats it

  You could be right - with the thin vinyl layer having been lifted off - as it used to do when one tried to loft it off the old latex glues. The old Feltex floor covering was in various colours - not suer how much was used in Perth. Lot's of stuff was manufactured in each State in those days so even same name could be slightly different product. Anyway the advice to deal with it is the same and we are all consistent on that - and that what matters!

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## goldie1

> You could be right - with the thin vinyl layer having been lifted off - as it used to do when one tried to loft it off the old latex glues. The old Feltex floor covering was in various colours - not suer how much was used in Perth. Lot's of stuff was manufactured in each State in those days so even same name could be slightly different product. Anyway the advice to deal with it is the same and we are all consistent on that - and that what matters!

  I could be wrong to. I think we should continue this discusion with a site inspection.
Wonder if Cloudy would spring for the airfares and a couple of bottles of that nice Margaret River grape juice ? :Smilie:

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## Bloss

Then again we could aim higher - simply forget the site inspection, do lunch and wine, and thereby solve the problems of the world  :2thumbsup:  . . . at least until we wake up the next day. :Frown:

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## Cloudy

Well thanks very much lads. I'll show the bloke (who said he will sand the boards and coat them for $42/m2 !) what you have suggested the grey material may be.   

> I think we should continue this discusion with a site inspection.

  Well finally! I was waiting for someone to suggest this. It will all start by you both inspecting the floor. Then I'll get you to pull a bit more masonite up to inpect. Then a sanding machine will appear out of nowhere with a tub of waterbase... 
See you soon!

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## Bloss

> I could be wrong to. I think we should continue this discusion with a site inspection.
> Wonder if *Cloudy would spring for the airfares and a couple of bottles of that nice Margaret River grape juice* ?

  Context and accuracy is important - I'd love a visit to the West, even without the vino, but it'll be a long wait for that inspection if I am paying . . .  :Biggrin:

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## intertd6

> The asbestos in vinyl sheeting is not hazardous - it is bound and at low levels and difficult to turn into aerosol or loose fibres. _This would be true for undisturbed material, but i as soon as its disturbed then it is hazardous & a high risk material untill the proper measures are taken to manage & reduce the risk _ But those pics are not of that product, but of rolled vinyl sheeting - most of which did not have asbestos, but some did (in small proportions). Not sure why you'd be bothered testing - remove using proper procedures - read the stickies for info CLICK HERE - and "don't panic!". _The purpose of testing gives the material a clear definition of how it should be disposed of, if you were to dispose of a asbestos containing material in the manner where it wasn't recognised as a hazardous waste then the cycle of asbestos in our environment could continue causing dangerous health problems to the innocent for who knows how long._

  regards inter

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## Bloss

Suggesting that 'disturbing asbestos' in vinyl somehow would create some great risk is scare mongering - it is almost impossible to atomise asbestos particles from even old and brittle vinyl - the health risk is tiny and infinitesimal if, *as I always recommend, proper safety gear is used*. There are plenty of other posts where the claim that asbestos exposure in this form is 'high risk' is debunked. Even amongst those exposed directly to asbestos fibres in mines over long periods the disease rates are surprisingly low. Asbestos related diseases are nasty and and more to the point are preventable - which is why we treat asbestos exposure with caution. But as a risk to DIYers there are many more activities they do which are likely to maim or kill at much higher rates than their asbestos exposure -  especially if they take the advice from me and others and use correct safety procedures. 
Testing is expensive and unnecessary mostly - my advice as in stickies and elsewhere is to *deal with and dispose of suspected asbestos as though it were asbestos*. That's the safest, cheapest and most effective way in any case for a householder who might be coming across bound asbestos- and does not require testing. In other words my view is to deal with suspect material from renos safely and in the same way - the test will will confirm that safe material handling was needed, but *I argue we should handle it safely always*! 
Read the STICKIES is my first advice CLICK HERE and then read what I say over and over again - ALL dusts should be treated as dangerous - and bound asbestos unless drilled, sanded or otherwise turned to dust by mechanical means, is not a source of asbestos fibre containing dust. Of course breaking a sheet is mechanical damage too - which is why I advocate use of safety gear - masks, googles, suits etc. This advice is almost universally ignored.

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## intertd6

> Suggesting that 'disturbing asbestos' in vinyl somehow would create some great risk is scare mongering - it is almost impossible to atomise asbestos particles from even old and brittle vinyl - the health risk is tiny and infinitesimal if, *as I always recommend, proper safety gear is used*. There are plenty of other posts where the claim that asbestos exposure in this form is 'high risk' is debunked. Even amongst those exposed directly to asbestos fibres in mines over long periods the disease rates are surprisingly low. Asbestos related diseases are nasty and and more to the point are preventable - which is why we treat asbestos exposure with caution. But as a risk to DIYers there are many more activities they do which are likely to maim or kill at much higher rates than their asbestos exposure - especially if they take the advice from me and others and use correct safety procedures.  _1. I'm not going to go into someones personal definition of disturbance or risk, but give an example of a simple construction industry risk assesment which is required by OH&S to be done before work is to commence on a task such as removal of asbestos containing material.
> A simple risk assessment reckoner is used http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/doingbusinesswithus/downloads/contractor-ohs/02_00.pdf
> If I look at how bad the consequences of exposure to asbestos short term (while the task is happening), the answer is its not going to kill you, if i look at whether asbestos exposure can kill someone in the long term (after the task is completed sometime in the future) the answer is yes, so it rates "K"
> Next we look at the likelihood of it happening, with asbestos exposure it is likely to kill at some stage (as it is not rare to be killed from asbestos exposure) so reading the reckoner it gives the task a rating of "1" Looking at the risk rating chart gives this task a high risk rating which means immediate action is required to manage the risk before undertaking the task. _ 
> Testing is expensive and unnecessary mostly - my advice as in stickies and elsewhere is to *deal with and dispose of suspected asbestos as though it were asbestos*. That's the safest, cheapest and most effective way in any case for a householder who might be coming across bound asbestos- and does not require testing. In other words my view is to deal with suspect material from renos safely and in the same way - the test will will confirm that safe material handling was needed, but *I argue we should handle it safely always*! _
> As long as suspect asbestos containing material is disposed as asbestos in the appropriate approved manner is all that really matters, depending on how much suspect material there is to be disposed of will be the factor to consider as to whether a cost saving will be made by skipping a test. Its the individuals choice to be exposed so suspect material, just keep the place closed up so no body else can be exposed to your cost saving. _ bound asbestos unless drilled, sanded or otherwise turned to dust by mechanical means, is not a source of asbestos fibre containing dust. Of course breaking a sheet is mechanical damage too. _
> See point 1. above. _

  If its all too confusing just call local workcover office for advice or inspection before starting or even if your underway ( its free ), they will only nail people who are trying to do the wrong thing or want argue with them.
regards inter

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## Cloudy

> _with asbestos exposure it is likely to kill  at some stage (as it is not rare to be killed from asbestos exposure) so  reading the reckoner it gives the task a rating of "1" Looking at the  risk rating chart gives this task a high risk rating which means  immediate action is required to manage the risk before undertaking the  task._

  I wouldn't say its likely to kill, according to Asbestos - Health & Wellbeing it's rare.   

> Lung cancer is more likely in people who have been exposed to asbestos  fibres – although overall it's still rare in those people.
> Asbestosis requires a great deal of exposure to asbestos to develop.
> Fortunately only a very small percentage of people exposed to asbestos develop mesothelioma.

  In any case, isn't "managing the risk" using appropriate safety gear as recommended by Bloss? 
In regards to disposal you are right. If its friable my local waste management facility recommends removal by licensed asbestos removal specialists and sealed in drums. But if non-friable I can just wrap it in tough black plastic bags myself. Now if this grey material does contain asbestos, is it friable or not? I'm not sure, but I'm still waiting on the flooring pro to come out to give more advice before I go further.

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## Bloss

Looks to me like furious agreement - treat with care and always use safety gear. 
BTW - there was no 'personal assessment of risk' in any of my comments. I read and abide by the evidence - and have made a a good living advising policy makers on assessing and understanding risk. Political reactions (often to media attention) drive much policy making way beyond what the evidence says would be a sensible approach. With asbestos too the choice to smoke tobacco increased the risk of disease and death from asbestos exposure by more than 40 times for those in the high exposure industries. We now have fewer than 15% of the population as smokers - so that in itself will reduce overall risk from any exposure (but would still increase the risk for exposed individuals who are smokers).

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## intertd6

> I wouldn't say its likely to kill, according to Asbestos - Health & Wellbeing it's rare.   _???? I must be reading a different article to the one you have refered to there because the one I read above was all about how toxic asbestos is & how it can kill you from quite a few different diseases, it is not rare to die from a asbestos related disease once being exposed to fibres in some shape or form
> in the past, it is rare to develope a asbestos related disease in a short period after exposure though_ In any case, isn't "managing the risk" using appropriate safety gear as recommended by Bloss? _Partly, but I'm a bit wary when people regard disturbed bonded asbestos as a low risk material when after a simple risk assessment is done, it isn't _ In regards to disposal you are right. If its friable my local waste management facility recommends removal by licensed asbestos removal specialists and sealed in drums. But if non-friable I can just wrap it in tough black plastic bags myself. Now if this grey material does contain asbestos, is it friable or not? I'm not sure, but I'm still waiting on the flooring pro to come out to give more advice before I go further. _If the guy is qualified to make the assessment by the way of recognised industry training then go for it, but having that training myself I wouldn't make an assessment untill the material was tested, friable just means loose fibres_.

  regards inter

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## intertd6

> Looks to me like furious agreement - treat with care and always use safety gear.  _Partly, but I have no problems defining high from low risk. _ BTW - there was no 'personal assessment of risk' in any of my comments. _You have often refered to the removal of bonded asbestos as a low risk activity, thats why I ran through the risk assessment to demonstrate that it isn't_ I read and abide by the evidence -on my sites _I read & abide by all the current rules, regulations & laws regarding OH&S on my sites, a quick call to workcover or building industry association will clear up any ambiguity on any safety related procedures, they have all the evidence, expertise & codes of practice to guide an individual or company instead of making an uneducated guess_ and have made a a good living advising policy makers on assessing and understanding risk. Political reactions (often to media attention) drive much policy making way beyond what the evidence says would be a sensible approach. With asbestos too the choice to smoke tobacco increased the risk of disease and death from asbestos exposure by more than 40 times for those in the high exposure industries. We now have fewer than 15% of the population as smokers - so that in itself will reduce overall risk from any exposure (but would still increase the risk for exposed individuals who are smokers). _I'm not understanding what all that has to do with handling a high risk toxic substance like asbestos in this day & age where the latest medical advice is that there is no safe level of exposure to airborne asbestos fibres_

  regards inter

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## Cloudy

> it is not rare to die from a asbestos related disease once being exposed to fibres in some shape or form

   

> Lung cancer is more likely in people who have been exposed to asbestos   fibres – although overall it's still *rare* in those people.
> Asbestosis requires a *great deal of exposure* to asbestos to develop.
> Fortunately only a very *small percentage* of people exposed to asbestos develop mesothelioma.

  Maybe I'm not reading it right  :Smilie:

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## Bloss

Inter  _
I'm not understanding what all that has to do with handling a high risk toxic substance like asbestos in this day & age where the latest medical advice is that there is no safe level of exposure to airborne asbestos fibres _ That's simply not what the latest advice says - it is more along the lines Cloudy suggests. In any case wear the right gear and one is not exposed . . . and there are many many substances around the household that are much greater risk to health than asbestos sheeting. Which is why I wear effective masks doing anything which might have dusts or fumes, and tell others too do so too - they usually don't._ _

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## watson

:What he said: 
With bells on.

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## intertd6

> Maybe I'm not reading it right

  For you non believers, This only one of many many sites for you to get you up to speed on this subject https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...mAYILzOcEXnDsQ 
and pretty well identical to the study notes I received doing an asbestos identification course at Hobart TAFE 16 years ago. 
regards inter

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## Cloudy

> For you non believers, _Non-believers of what?_ 
> This only one of many many sites for you to get you up to speed on this subject www.health.vic.gov.au/environment/downloads/marion_carey_asbestos_seminar.ppt      _the risk caused by brief exposure is likely to be undetectably low.._    and pretty well identical to the study notes I received doing an asbestos identification course at Hobart TAFE 16 years ago.

  and pretty well identical to the information on the *ABC.net.au* site I quoted from.

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## Bloss

> . . .  doing an asbestos identification course at Hobart TAFE 16 years ago. 
> regards inter

  If we are in a peeing competition I have been doing asbestos management and wider risk & OH&S management work professionally, amongst other things,  for more than 35 years . . .  
'belief' is irrelevant - the facts are what matter, but of course as this thread shows one person's interpretation of what the facts mean can be widely different from another's. 
But real life experience supports my view - there are and have been millions and millions of exposures to 'just one fibre of asbestos' in Australia and we have no epidemic of disease from such exposures - if the risk was that high then we would be seeing already much higher numbers. The large disease numbers we know of are all from exposures before the banning of asbestos in products (and the closure of the mines and manufacturing plants) was completely in place and taking effect. The way the diseases occurs (with a 10 to 70 year time lag) means that in Australia we will not see a peak in diagnoses until around 2025-30 and then a gradual reduction over the next 30-40 years (but never to zero as there will always be some environmental exposures which cause illness). 
So every year we will see an increase in those diagnosed, but they will be be from that historical exposure at high levels (made worse if smokers) - so miners, those who worked in factories, those who were chippies and used power tools on fibro houses and eaves linings. wet areas, etc (I have already lost a great mate to mesothelioma [in his 40s] who did his apprenticeship in the 70s on pre-fab transportable fibro houses), then others such a motor mechanics who blew out asbestos dust from brake linings - and on it goes. Exposure at that level in Australia has not occurred since the '90s (brake linings were amongst the last to change). 
A greater concern is that Canada (for example) is still mining asbestos and exporting it to China, India - and in those countries and elsewhere there are no strict rules such as we have here. As with tobacco companies there seems no moral or ethical concern about exporting products which are not allowed in the country of company owners or where it is mined or manufactured.

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## intertd6

> If we are in a peeing competition I have been doing asbestos management and wider risk & OH&S management work professionally, amongst other things, for more than 35 years . . .  _
> If we were in a peeing competition I'd have to sit down, but back to the point at hand.
> Please tell me where I have gone wrong in my risk assessment for bonded asbestos removal giving it a high risk of 1 category rating & even better show me how you could rate the removal of bonded asbestos as a low risk using the industry standard risk assessment reckoner tool. The basic OH&S tool taught to participants of the construction industry OH&S induction course.  _ 'belief' is irrelevant - the facts are what matter, but of course as this thread shows one person's interpretation of what the facts mean can be widely different from another's. 
> But real life experience supports my view - there are and have been millions and millions of exposures to 'just one fibre of asbestos' in Australia and we have no epidemic of disease from such exposures - if the risk was that high then we would be seeing already much higher numbers. The large disease numbers we know of are all from exposures before the banning of asbestos in products (and the closure of the mines and manufacturing plants) was completely in place and taking effect. The way the diseases occurs (with a 10 to 70 year time lag) means that in Australia we will not see a peak in diagnoses until around 2025-30 and then a gradual reduction over the next 30-40 years (but never to zero as there will always be some environmental exposures which cause illness). 
> So every year we will see an increase in those diagnosed, but they will be be from that historical exposure at high levels (made worse if smokers) - so miners, those who worked in factories, those who were chippies and used power tools on fibro houses and eaves linings. wet areas, etc (I have already lost a great mate to mesothelioma [in his 40s] who did his apprenticeship in the 70s on pre-fab transportable fibro houses), then others such a motor mechanics who blew out asbestos dust from brake linings - and on it goes. Exposure at that level in Australia has not occurred since the '90s (brake linings were amongst the last to change). 
> A greater concern is that Canada (for example) is still mining asbestos and exporting it to China, India - and in those countries and elsewhere there are no strict rules such as we have here. As with tobacco companies there seems no moral or ethical concern about exporting products which are not allowed in the country of company owners or where it is mined or manufactured. *That is all common knowledge, but the known facts & recommendations from the Australian Gov't health & OH&S departments advise that there is no safe level of exposure to asbestos, if you have any proof saying that there is a safe level of asbestos exposure in Australia please post it to prove your point, as you claim "*That's simply not what the latest advice says"

  regards inter

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## intertd6

> and pretty well identical to the information on the *ABC.net.au* site I quoted from.

  I can see why the powers to be want to restrict what building work can be done by the average joe when they choose to get their info from a media provider instead of the recognised Gov't Health or OH&S organisation. 
regards inter

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## Cloudy

Sorry inter I just don't know what you are getting at here. You claimed that_ "with asbestos exposure it is likely to kill at some stage."_ 
I showed quotes from an abc site that states it is not likely, but in fact rare.  
You continue to state that *"it is not rare to die from a asbestos related disease once being exposed to fibres in some shape or form"* and post a link to a PowerPoint presentation. 
I suggest this presentation still supports the abc claims that the risk is low and include quotes from the ppt. 
Now you claim that I am choosing to get my _"info from a media provider instead of the recognised Gov't Health or OH&S organisation"_??? 
Let me quote from Worksafe  

> Not everyone exposed to asbestos fibres will contract an  asbestos-related disease. In fact, the chances are low with a single  exposure.

  You may still suggest that it is highly likely to die once being exposed to asbestos. However please provide quotes and the sources to back your claims up, as I have done. As at the moment you appear to be trolling and as Bloss suggested, scare mongering.

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## intertd6

> Sorry inter I just don't know what you are getting at here. You claimed that_ "with asbestos exposure it is likely to kill at some stage." If you had run through the risk assessment tool process the choices for likelihood of death happening from asbestos exposure, the first choice going left to right is " VL- very likely could happen at any time " this is not the likely outcome, so moving next to the right is " L- likely could happen some time " when you at first look at this likelihood it could be yes or no, so moving right again the next likelihood is " U- unlikely could happen but rare " this likelihood doesnt fit so you use the previous likelihood which is "L"_I showed quotes from an abc site that states it is not likely, but in fact rare.  _  If you could understand what you were reading only one form of asbestos related disease is rare out of the four_  
> ,
> You continue to state that *"it is not rare to die from a asbestos related disease once being exposed to fibres in some shape or form"*  _This would be concerning people who do DIY and or professionals or spouses who are exposed to fibres I might add_ and post a link to a PowerPoint presentation. _That would be to back up my claim of " there is no known safe level of asbestos exposure in australia " which was commissioned by the VIC govt
>  (its in the URL address) which is only one of 4 million odd pages on google which are similar to this . _  
> I suggest this presentation still supports the abc claims that the risk is low and include quotes from the ppt. 
> Now you claim that I am choosing to get my _"info from a media provider instead of the recognised Gov't Health or OH&S organisation"_??? _You did_ 
> Let me quote from Worksafe  _Now you are _ You may still suggest that it is highly likely to die once being exposed to asbestos. However please provide quotes and the sources to back your claims up, as I have done. As at the moment you appear to be trolling and as Bloss suggested, scare mongering. _I have never said it is highly likely to die from asbestos exposure, but have said it is a high risk activity & have demonstrated through a risk analysis how it rates as such.
> My suggestion is if you ever have to do such a task get a competent person to do a risk assessment for you as they will be able to comprehend the risks involved, or do an asbestos awareness / identification TAFE course.
> When the statistics of asbestos related disease is on the increase for DIYers & then hearing the term of low risk for the removal / disturbance of bonded asbestos i find it very hard not to comment, it might save somones life one day, maybe even yours _

  regards inter

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## piscean

I will say that from reading many many many  previous posts here bloss does seem to down play the risks of asbestos which I don't necessarily agree with. Lets face it, many of us are old enough that we've been surrounded by asbestos throughout our lives and it's not a big deal to us. I'm definitely in the camp that just because a house contains asbestos we don't need to PANIC!!!!  :Biggrin:  but I do agree with interd that we shouldn't take it lightly either when disturbing asbestos since the risks are now widely known. Testing is helpful because it tells you whether or not you just need to use a dust mask or take other precautions such as isolating the area so that you don't have dust contamination of other areas etc. I think the only argument here is if it is sensible to down play the risks or not, and since we all  have to live with the consequences of our own actions, I'll always be more like inter and err on the side of caution and I don't think anyone has the right to make that sound silly or over the top. Heck if someone doesn't want to use a mask at all and breathe in the dust at close range because it floats their boat that's their business but lets not put ourselves at unnecessary risk. Interd takes the issue seriously, bloss always poo poos it     :Wink:

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## shauck

I don't usually get into these sort of discussions but this one reminds me of sitting around with the family when we were kids. Everyone's arguing and trying to make a point but all I hear is that essentially everyone agrees, asbestos or suspected asbestos should be handled with care, disposed of properly and wearing safety gear while disposing of it will keep you safe. Saying that Bloss down plays the risks of asbestos is in my opinion, incorrect. He advocates safety measures in disposal of asbestos and further, also advocates safety measures when dealing with other dusts, fumes, etc. Haven't heard anyone else say this. Good advise.

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## goldie1

> bloss always poo poos it

  Jeez thats a bit of a stretch Bloss is constantly posting about the dangers of air borne dust.

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## Cloudy

Just thought I would update the situation. 
I did get the stuff tested. The guy who is going to do the sanding deserved to know what he is dealing with. I got it tested by a company called Octief for $55 (mailed it in). No asbestos found.  :2thumbsup:  
This "organic material" is stuck down, almost damp like, in a lot of places. I'm using a scraper to get it up. Will have to pay the sander extra as its going to use more sandpaper.   2nd pic you can see the Jarrah floor colour where there was no material on top. 
Cheers.

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## intertd6

cloudy, you have made a wise decision & have gone down the right path by having the suspect material tested.
regards inter

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## goldie1

Jeez ! bet your glad to see the back of that lot. From the last photos looks like lino underlay. It was  a thick blotting paper 
type product which was put down so the lines of the floor boards wouldn't show through the sheet flooring.  
Be interesting to see how well the timber comes up with all that water coming out of the bathroom.

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