# Forum Home Renovation Home Theatres  question for soundman or anyone ?

## la Huerta

i all...been busy trying to get my business rolling along so hav'nt been here for a while... :Frown:  
would someone be able translate this attachment into simple english for me, i have  the jv60 loadspeakers from jaycar and this sounds like just the mod. i am looking for to improve there average performance...

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## masoth

I'm not sure this is the "translation" you want, but by removing what (I think) are unnecessary words for the conversion, you are left with less to take your attention. Someone is sure to take you through the technical stuff (and correct me at the same time) but I hope my effort is helpful. The underlined section too, I think, might be ignored - in fact, the entire second paragraph seems to tell only the result:confused: .
I sincerely hope the originator is not insulted/angered by this re-write. 
soth  
'The jv60 system can be improved by making it into a specialist satellite system. This can be done:
* with a box volume of 40l tuned to 60Hz which results in a *bass peak;* and
* If these speakers are subsequently driven from the high pass outputs of a sub-woofer amplifier, and the crossover adjusted to around 70Hz the *bass peak* is removed . The result is a "QB5" alignment.  
Over a badwidth extending down to 40Hz the jv60 cannot produce much more than 96dbm.  Using the outlined scheme Smalls, "kp" parameter increases from 3 up to 34. This results in the drivers being able to accept their full voice coil power rating. 
Over the band from 65Hz this gives 114dbm average for one speaker, this is about 400Watts "rms".  
This system should be complimented by a sub-woofer that goes down to a genuine 20Hz at a sufficient level.'

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## la Huerta

cheers mate, that does help see the fact a bit better...but still don't really know how to go about this project, is there enough info above to do it. ?...that's all i have on the subject...

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## la Huerta

ok , i'll ask some questions related to the above...  "with a box volume of 40l tuned to 60HZ" how do i do this ?  "driven from the high pass outputs of a sub amp" does this mean the speakers are connected to a powered sub in some way ?  "the crossover addjusted to 70HZ", how do i modify the original crossover, i built these speakers, and one of the crossovers was replaced at one time with one i built as jaycar would only supply components, so i have a llittle knowledge (maybe)...

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## Harry72

To tune the box to 60Hz you would alter the port dimensions either by changing its diameter or lenght, use a program like bassbox pro(buy for about $200)or freebee download Winisd.(both of these will do your crossover calc's too...) 
"driven by from the high pass outputs of a sub amp" 
Most sub woofer amps connect to your mains/fullrange speakers by the speaker wires from your system, basically the sub amp is "inline" between your main system amp and the main/fullrange speakers on the speaker wires.
In doing this the sub amp can cross over the signal ie filter the sub bass from your main speakers(about 80hz down) and filter all other frequencies from the subwoofer itself(about 80hz upwards).

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## Master Splinter

That email appears to be taken verbatim from a post from one of the Jaycar forums...there is no other information in the thread about it...so you are out of luck if you want more details from the author. 
"with a box volume of 40l tuned to 60HZ" how do i do this ? 
A 40 litre ported box. The tuning is done by the selection of the diameter and length of the port. Ported box designs can have 'one note boom' as indicated in the post, but by using the output from a high pass filter (only lets frequencies higher than a specified point - 70hz in this case) you never get down to the frequency of the box so you avoid the boom!   "driven from the high pass outputs of a sub amp" does this mean the speakers are connected to a powered sub in some way ? 
Yes. Sounds like they are being used as the main speakers in a HT setup. So you will need either a HT amp that gives you the ability to dial in the cutoff frequency for the main speakers, or you need a high pass filter. Oh, you'll need a subwoofer too, as the modified speakers won't play lower than 70hz.  "the crossover addjusted to 70HZ"  This isn't the speakers crossover, this is the HT amp crossover - at this point the amp sends frequencies lower than 70hz to the subwoofer.  
The modification as described increases the power handling ability of the speakers (they don't bottom out - or hit the 'linear excursion limit' of the drivers), however, this won't address the problem of the amp running out of power during the 'thud bang crash boooom!' parts of movies, unless you add a seperate powered subwoofer.  
Personally, I wouldn't touch this modification unless I was happy to consign it all to the junk bin if it turned out to be some self proclaimed expert's theory, and not an actual tested design. (lets face it, most people think the sound they get through their $2.50 earphones is just great...which doesn't say much for their listening abilities!<img>) 
I think it would be easier to just add a powered subwoofer first, and see how you like the sound. Your HT amp should let you set the cutoff point for the main speakers.

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## la Huerta

thanks guys, think i'm starting to understand... 
Master Splinter, i will take your addvice first, get a sub, and see how it goes, the problem i am having with these speakers is they bottom out in the action scenes, and if i like a extra bit of volume they tend to sound all like one big speaker instead of 2...perhaps the driver installation is not right, ie:should they be recessed , what other factors can contribute this problem, it is not likely to be the amp (onkyo reciever) as i have listened to this amp with high end speakers and it was really something... 
oh, and it hasn't got any crossover addjustments on the amp, but could i run the  powered sub inline to take the low frequencies before they get to the jv60's... 
another question...sealing the ports on the jv'60's, what will this do?   
many thanks in addvance for all you help... 
la H

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## Harry72

Sealing the ports.... errr sealed box!
Should increase their power handling... and decrease the output of the lower octaves(unless you boost them), one drawback that may happen is these vifa drivers are ment for vented boxes sealing them may induce bad responses making the response curves peaky.
Sealing them may achive what you want, just do to one of the pair to temporarily to hear the difference put them next to each other and feed them a mono signal(identical signal)and use the balance knob to fade between them... see which you like better, but keep in mind you'll be using a sub.
Dont fall into the mistake of substituting the lower midbass from your mains speakers with the subwoofer(thats what all those all in one box systems do... sounds crap).

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## la Huerta

Harry22...so you think that a large pair of floorstanding speakers like the jv60 along with a monster sub would sound better than satelites with a monster sub, because the floorstanding speakers help 'fill' the soundstage more rather that just having highs from satelites and lows from sub... 
this sound right ?

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## lnt9000

la Huerta I have heard the jv60's in action and was very Impressed by their performance, however I did not have the opportunity to hear them at high volume, from memory they had a fairly linear response down to 40hz with a dip at around 3khz, are yours constructed correctly?, that mod basically tells you not to use them below 70hz , If they are bottoming out at high volume then backing off the bass and adding a sub would probably be the go, dont know about modifying the box though as It has been designed with the drivers vas specs and should be pretty close.

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## la Huerta

hey i'll leave them alone for a while and save for a sub first...was looking at the top of the range sub amp from jaycar and a 15in driver from them too, how good a quality driver should i get, there is a $100 and a $300 double magnet, both are 4,ohm

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## Harry72

I would'nt call the Jv60's large floor standers, yes floor standers sound awsome with sub reinforcement, sub bass IMHO dont sound right without lower midbass to back it up... just sounds like a sloppy fart!(bit like comparing a Hyundi excel with the 5" exhaust to V8 supercar... balls)

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## Harry72

I wouldnt grab that Jcar 15", they are jc's cheap range and the price reflects it(compared to their other models they sound floppy/muddy), the cs2228 double mag is a very good speaker but its not 4ohm its dual 4ohm... either 2ohm or 8ohm dont run single coil, your wasting half of its motor!(grab 2 instead...)
You could get fancy and build those jv60's with a sub in each... Jcar have the 10" 8ohm cw2137 for $99ea they need a ported box of around 40-50ltrs and 2 of them would give you a fair amount of air displacement(what SB is all about)for under $200... they are a reasonable driver and have won magazine reveiws(By D Duprez)against many others. I have heard and thrashed these 1st hand... definately bargin bass.
Another brand to consider is Adire Audio they make some of the most awsome subs in the world without exuberant prices... on a buget the shiva range is good my own HT sub is a 12" model in a 100ltr(tuned to 25hz!), just ask the neibours across my street how well their windows vibrate.
If you want to go absolutey extreme their  "TUMULT 18" will kill any HT sub around period... you know ACDC's song shake your foundations... lets just say you better have good foundations
Adire's aussie source is www.aranmaracoustics.com.au a shiva 12" sould be about $300ish... tumult 18 will be over $1k easy

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## la Huerta

thanks for tthe info Harry22, i definly would like to go with a quality 15in,(acttually had a 10in once, but  it was too small for the room, then the wire poped off and blew the sub and sub amp, i was a younger then and did things in halves)...th jaycar 15indouble magnet looooks good and is max price that i would pay, with there 350w amp that's around $600 , not too bad...the loadspeaker kit has http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/sho...&ProcessType=1has a sweet 15in that they say is thx level but they sell the cabinet with the kit so it's too pricey, if i could find just the driver that they use would be good, not sure who has them...yeh installing subs within an enclosure of the jv60 would be cool too, but who knnows i mighht be able to afford to upgrade from the jv60 one day and a  seperate sub would be easier...

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## GraemeCook

Hi La Hueta and all 
Wow, you certainly generated an informative series of posts.  Well done everyone. 
I built some speaker boxes twenty years ago and am currently thinking about upgrading them and possible adding supertweeters.  Not being an audio technocrat I have had a fairly long and steep learning curve. 
Your posts have also helped me and confirmed some of what I had already discovered. 
Besides the web, one useful reference I have used is the "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" that I got from Jaycar. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## la Huerta

you know i think us woodworkers willl all end up deaf, we love noise ie;power tools, machinery, v8's and home theatre with grunt...  
the loudspeaker kit site has a floorstanding model almost the same as the jv60, same 6.5 in drivers anyway, would be good to build using what i have , but there is no info on the crossover or box size...

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## la Huerta

this guy here has he jv60, http://users.bigpond.net.au/builty/index.html 
looks like a mean system, 3 subs too...   
questions?...how can and what can be done, that effects sound by the attachment of the drivers and tweeter to the box ie; would recessing them change sound, putting some rubber between the driver and the box, and what about installation, would quality of the damping material effect sound too... 
all good question hey !

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## Harry72

Which JC double mag 15" are you refering to... the only one they stock is $99 and the amp is $329... $428.
They did have a 15" equivalent a few years ago to the double mag 12"... is that the one you are refering too? 
I reckon LSK's 15 is a Dayton driver.

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## la Huerta

yeh  mate, i was refering to the 15in they used to have , guess not anymore...altronics has a beauty, no price though... 
i  thing the LSK'S is a Dayon too, can't seem to find anyone selling just the driver though to check the price...

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## Harry72

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage....ID=114#drivers

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## la Huerta

looks good but ausi supplierr would be better...

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## Harry72

There isnt!

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## la Huerta

alrighty then...i'll check postage cost from the US...or i'll go to altronics... 
many thanks for your reply ...

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## Master Splinter

You can get a Shiva subwoofer in Australia from here.  Add a 300 watt jaycar plate amp (that'll give you the ability to tweak the crossover points).  Check that your dental fillings have a replacement policy. 
Shiva reviews here.

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## la Huerta

thanks Master S....hose sites are fantastic, brain overload stuff !!     
another good question for all... 
...which would be a better option, 
 2 seperated 12in powered subs or 1x15in sub, i'm assuming the amount of air moved in a room by 2 12in would be greater than that of 1 15in, and possibly more even sound L+R ....i could maybe even build the boxes to the same size footprint as the jv60's (to the volume required for the 12in driver of cause) and combine the 2, it would still be 2 seperated units but just look like one...? 
looking at some  of the required box volumes for some of the 15in and there 1 huge enclosure, 200ltr, to big for my loungeroom ...

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## GraemeCook

> looks good but ausi supplierr would be better...

  Have you tried www.speakerbits.com.au of Melbourne. 
Graeme

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## Harry72

MSplinter that oz suppiler is where my shiva come from... link is quoted earlier(post#13!) la Huerta the shiva can move lots of air, more than 90% of sub's availabe even beat most 15's... has very good xmax(cone stroke distance) for a oldish designed sub.
Honestly most people #### themselfs the 1st time they are assulted by a shiva! 
Dont always assume bigger dia cone moves more air the xmax is also needed to approximate output... xmax X sd = theorectial output

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## Master Splinter

Personally, I would go for a single 12" Shiva.  If for no other reason than fitting a cabinet the size of a fridge in the living room is a bit tricky.  
Adire Audio (the makers of the Shiva) have some very good info on speakers. 
Two 12" subs are, for practical purposes, unnecessary.  You dont need them for stereo effects (a 75hz sound in air has a wavelength of 4.5 meters, so it should be pretty hard to localise the sub). 
But for real low frequency response (down to a few hertz) you need a subsonic actuator such as the Aura Interactor talked about here.

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## lnt9000

Hey guys every time I mail aranmaracoustics they are out of stock on the 12" shiva, by the way their email service aint workin' anymore, anyone know of an alternate supplier?

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## rcw

That does originally come from the Jaycar website, and I am the one who posted it. 
On Rod Elliots site  'ESP" you will find articles that describe the QB5 filter assisted alignments. 
Speaker systems that have  small drivers such as the Jaycar ones with p17s cannot go down in bass as far as is claimed in frequency response specs with ought producing gross distortion,and are not capable of meeting the "hi fi" standard level of 90db. with 110db. at the lowest frequencies, at all in most cases, the jvc 60 being one.
As outlined, in professional audio the qb5 II filter assisted alignments, ( that allow the full voice coil rating of the drivers to be used with ought exceeding the linear cone excursion), are used, and   can be easily made with a modification to the box tuning and the use of the high pass filter built into 5.1 receivers and plate amps and these greatly increase the output you can get before the loudspeaker system starts to sound strained.

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## paulspencer

I may be a little late to the table, but having built and modified a JV60 and compared to many other much more expensive speakers, I have a few comments. I only recently sold them to a very happy new owner. I modified the crossover with a tweeter pad, modified the mids and built a TL box for them. The write up is here:  Red Spade Audio: DIY Transmission Line Speakers 
This kit has appeared at Jaycar again apparently and it's definitely a bang for buck option.  
As RCW said, this isn't a high output kit. You certainly won't get 114 db clean output out of them. I have run these with a Behringer pro amp with 650w and I can tell you no matter what you do, they will show signs of stress long before you will measure those kinds of levels. Even if you cross them actively and run with subs. At a typical listening position of about 3m with bass filtered out, you will get to about 90 db. Don't try measuring this with subs as you can have room mode peaks giving an inflated estimate.  
90 db is actually quite loud. At the cinema you see 105 db two thirds into the cinema - that is peak midrange level at the loudest part of the movie. The bass is mixed so that it will be up to 115 db. You can hit that level with subs in a lot of rooms, but with the mains you need to look to more efficient designs.  
Most won't really want or need that kind of output. These are more than enough for most. Costs a little over $1k to build some nice veneered speakers based on this kit, and the result will compete with a $5k speaker.

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## Moondog55

Late arrival on the thread but just read it with interest.
JV60 is not a home theater speaker, although it can play loud enough it just doesn't have the grunt needed for HT or orchestral works at concert volume.
Couple of route you can go to improve overall performance without building new boxes but it depends a lot on how deep your pockets are.
That bottom octave can cost big, seriously big; great big money.
First option is a decent sub-woofer amplifier and decent sub-woofer. 
O-Audio is a good choice  O Audio - 500W BASH Subwoofer Amplifier 
Add the Dayton 15 or the Shiva in a sealed box and get OK performance. 
For the best performance you will need more gear, at least one more stereo amp and a subwoofer amp.
Use an electronic cross-over and bi-amp the JV60s using a decent pair of 8 or 10 inch woofers in a sealed box, set the XO to around 80---100 Hz and  add the sub-woofer into the mix

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## Master Splinter

I didn't know the Shivas were still available.  I've got a plate amp, just need a driver to go with it!

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## Moondog55

To the best of my knowledge they are in America, although the name  just changed to Shiva X-2,   Audiomarketplace - Exodus Shiva-X2 Subwoofer 
personally I think 12 inch is a little too small for sub-woofer duty if only using a single driver no matter what the excursion is.
I lust after a pair of these  Audiomarketplace - Exodus Maelstrom-X2 21" Subwoofer

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## Master Splinter

Hummmmm...I was thinking of the Adire Audio Shiva - are they the same-ish?

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## Moondog55

Same designer, new driver is better in many respects, Adire went broke due to production problems; then restarted as Exodus. 
I know the Australian price is high but you can't import direct because of the marketing agreement, but what would airmail on that weight cost you??

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## Master Splinter

Hummmmm - the 15 inch Tempest looks interesting.  I shall have to do some reading.....

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## Moondog55

Yep/ Nice driver, I have a Kicker with very similar specs; but I am lucky I have good WAF and Cecile lets me put a 200liter box in the lounge room, most wifes wouldn't

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## Cecile

> Yep/ Nice driver, I have a Kicker with very similar specs; but I am lucky I have good WAF and Cecile lets me put a 200liter box in the lounge room, most wifes wouldn't

  WAF or not, he's at the limit of what this wife will put up with!   :Sneaktongue:

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## Master Splinter

I'm thinking of a sub disguised in a coffee table style enclosure, so I can get the coffee in the coffee cup vibrating a la Jurassic Park.   
I've already got a swag of subsonic actuators to attach to the lounge chairs for the real low frequencies, though.....

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## jago

Cool thread but I suspect that even with vibrating chairs, coffee tables and large bass boxes the music might just be ... Abba!

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## Master Splinter

Well, my car stereo does tend to sit on 'dance' equalisation....
but I'm more a Deadmau5 person, actually.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLJEtBUg-kY 
or New Order  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=og1HAkjOuL0 
or Sisters of Mercy  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMFgYVA0-e4 
or Jesus and Mary Chain  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGp47YwDZ48 
or even some My Robot Friend  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL87tiCpOpw 
and just a touch of TISM  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-mLIdLZZeI

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## jago

OMG MS are you from the north of England stuck in the 80's ....  :Doh:

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## Master Splinter

> OMG MS are you from the north of England stuck in the 80's ....

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1oyfG6t2ew  
Actually, the release dates average out to '96.  You can go back to your Yessongs and Asia albums now.... 
To quote David Musgrave's poem: _On the Inevitable Decline into Mediocrity  of the Popular Musician who Attains a Comfortable Middle Age_.  *"O Sting, where is thy  death?"*

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## jago

They had their fame in the 80s though... If you want to test a sound system try 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqh54rSzheg&feature=youtube_gdata_player]YouTube - Cream- Sunshine of Your Love[/ame] 
or
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjakbV29nyE&feature=youtube_gdata_play]YouTube - The Prodigy - Smack My Bitch Up (Live in Pink Pop)[/ame] 
my fav saw live  
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHVLNY3KxeA&feature=youtube_gdata_player]YouTube - Moloko The Time Is Now[/ame]

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## Master Splinter

I see you're more into a 60's style of music, then...

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## jago

Nothing wrong with the 60's, 90's good naughties best that's when I ran 5 London sound studios.

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