# Forum Home Renovation Tools & Products  Bosch sliding compound saw and others

## chalkyt

The current project (in planning)  is a hexagonal gazebo... which justifies spending on new "toys" because of complex angles etc. I have looked at past posts re sliding compound saws and as usual, confusion reigns regarding current quality etc of the big names. 
So, I had an Ikon (Mitre 10's Chinese el-cheapo) which got a wood chip in the motor and karked it about 6 months after the warranty ran out. Used it for extending the verandah, landscaping with sleepers etc and it worked O.K. Can muddle through without it but another one would be nice. 
The choices seem to range from Ozito or the ebay el-cheapos, through Ryobi, Bosch and Makita. All ranging from around $160 to $400. Mitre 10 currently has a Bosch "green" unit with stands for $379. Others such as Makita, Hitachi are around for similar prices without stands. How useful is the stand? Last time with the Ikon I used a plank, saw horses etc which was O.K. but a pain to set-up and pull down. 
The choice seems to be Ozito (cheap), Bosch (with stands) or Makita (more expensive). Both here and Whirlpool seem to be a bit critical of Makita's quality at the lower end these days and since most posts are 12 months or more old, I thought it worth getting the current opinions. All wisdom gratefully absorbed as I am off to Canberra next week where I will have the riches of Bunnings, Masters, MagnetMart, Gasweld, ToolKing, etc to choose from.

----------


## chalkyt

Just an update to the thread. Miserable day here so a bit more scratching around on the internet led to Swartz Tools on ebay. There was a post on these in Woodwork Forum in 2012 which wasn't too complimentary but was at least answered by Swartz Tools who claim to have produced a bigger and better unit. They have a 12 inch compound mitre saw with bells and whistles for under $350. Anyone got an update on these products?

----------


## phild01

Geez it's cheap to buy these things now.
Sorry to be of little help but that Bosch would surely be better than no-name type saws.  I think beyond this level, the critical factors matter to those in the trade the most.
I am used to my old Hitachi which I don't have a lot of love for (and was more than twice the price), but I do like it's base-plate getting the angles right. Big plus!
Hard to imagine the stand they throw in having extendable roller arms, but if it did, it would be well worth thinking about.

----------


## andy the pm

I have a Ryobi ems 2026 RYOBI Australia: Discontinued
Having used it for a couple of years now and generally happy with it. The mitres only go to 45 on the left hand and 50 on the right and the compound angle is 45 one side only (left). The fixed angle stops have always felt a bit sloppy but I don't use them a lot, other than 45.
I don't use the laser anymore, it was very hard to see when using outside and it gets covered with fine sawdust a lot. It is pretty easy to adjust. Also the saw fouls the work clamp when using the compound angle but this looks like a common problem for most saws...
One bonus of Ryobi is they offer a free exchange if there are any problems with the tool (within the warranty period). We tested this when my FiL blew the saw up trying to cut 300x63mm LVLs in one pass...Bunnings swapped the saw no questions asked...

----------


## METRIX

You will find many articles here and other forums regarding SCMS, I started one a while ago when we were having a lot of troublw with our unreliable (and expensive) Makita's. 
In the end we replaced them all with BOSCH Blue GCM 10SD, these currently retail for around $699 which is over your budget (I consider that cheap compared to what I have paid SCMS in the past) these have been running perfectly and give repeted accurate cuts, and overall have performed very well, the only complaint I would have is the weight is 28Kg for a 10", and the physical size is just as big as a 12". 
Oh and the dust collection bag  is useless, you might as well pick up all the sawdust you can find on site and throw it from one side of the site to the other at the dust collection bag, I guarantee you would get more dust in the bag and makel ess mess than the saw does, so I would say a Vac attachment is a must with a Bosch saw if being used indoors, this seems to be Bosch trait from the various ones I have used other than that very happy. 
Basically it has been said many times, you get what you pay for and with a SCMS this is the bottom line, there is simply too much material that goes into making a SCMS and if you can pick one up for $199 dont expect it to be nice to use, accurate (for very long) or last the distance. 
The cheapy ones mimic the expensive one's but 99% of the time they just dont get it right due to manufacturing tolerences / lack of design, and this is really only evident when you actually use it and have something to compare it to such as well designed / made machine that you can REALLY see the difference, unfortunately they all feel the same sitting on the shelf, that's not to say the big brands get it right, Attn Bosch - Makita seem to understand what a dust bag is actually there for.  
From my personal experience I still have a belt drive 12" Japanese Hitachi which has been going for over 10 years, it has a few battle scars, has been in the back of the ute 1000's of times, and it still cuts accurately and reliably, and apart from needing a new set of brushes from so much use and the mandatory blades nothing has gone wrong with it, when Hitachi went to the excesive rubber EVERTWHERE Nike shoe look the product quality suffered in the process. 
As said earlier we had a few expensive Makita 10" which turned out to be rubbish, unreliable and a big dissapointment, which is quite the opposite to their early "Tradesman" series stuff (as defined by the beige coloured powdercoat finish) these were the defacto standard on any work site, but like anything times have changed China has become the producer for everything in this world and with that quality of these tools has dropped significantly, even their pro series which was always made in Japan has started shipping from China. 
For DIY, bosch Green has a good series of SCMS but using a few of these has revealed a few fauts such as VERY LOUD motors did I say VERY LOUD, I have never heard anything quite as loud, the design looks like they have used a Grinder as the basis for the motor which might expalin the noise, also one thnag that really stood out on the Green series is the spring which pulls the motor back up is simply TOO strong and they retract too high which makes it hard to drop it down slowly and ease it into the timber, combine this with the stupid finicky safety release mechanism to get the thing to drop and it does not make for a pleasent cutting experience. 
Other than that for a DIY saw they cut very nicely, they are just fiddly to use, but they don't have to be, various manuacturers just add strange ways of doing simple adjustments because their competition does such as weird little levers and knobs everywhere to do simple adjustments, and sometimes they work but most times they don't, they just complicate a simple adjustment (AKA BOSCH) they love to put so many levers all over the place that when you use it the levers and plates actually hinder you using the saw. 
Take a look at the new range of AEG (Orange Series), they offer a 6 year warranty and I think 3 Years on batteries, I have been impressed with their stuff, it looks sturdy, well built and functional with good design, with the added warranty I think it is set to sell well. 
The green shed has a 10" AEG 2000W SCMS for $459, which if it's built like the rest of their latest stuff, this is where I would be starting my search for a new SCMS, compare this to Makita you can pay more than $1000 and only get 12 months warranty (they actually have a big logo that says 12 MONTHS WARRANTY) plastered on their resellers websites, thats notihng to boast about and says something about how trustworthy they are about their own product. 
Makita now offer 3 years warranty for all lithlum ion tool but excludes batteries, chargers, torches and garden products, Bosch offer up to 3 years on various tools, Dewalt 3 years (limitations apply), Milwalkee 3 years on corded up to 5 on cordless, Hitachi 3 years on pnuematic, corded and cordless (batteries 1 year).

----------


## ringtail

Agree. The AEG stuff is decent and I would say far better than Makita. Bosch blue is my preference and will replace my current makita SCMS which is as accurate as the Labor party's accounting. My first Bosch blue saw was beautiful, pity I snapped the end off the armature with a massive log jam. It's a shame that Hitachi went all mental with it's packaging as their product was solid and reliable. Avoid all the no name and cheapo crap. Remember, garbage in, garbage out.

----------


## Pitto

dont forget about a stand also. this may not seem like a big thing, but working on the ground all weekend will drive you nuts. 
The Dewalt is a great stand, But others such as Ryobi and AEG have copied it and have a similar product. Getting the saw up off the ground will aid in getting acurate cuts and help support longer lengths of timber, which is important when angle cuts come into play. 
i could go on about the Bosch Gravity rise stand, however its in another price range and would be out of your reach on this project.

----------


## METRIX

Agree, the Dewalt stand is the easiest one to use, and relatively light for what it does. 
I also have the Milwalkee and it's too heavy (because it's all steel unlike the Dewalt which is a combo of Aluminium / Steel). 
The Milwalkee also does not feel as well made as the Dewalt does not fold up as easily, and does not extend as far as the Dewalt, I have also used the Bosch one and did not like it, felt cheap and nasty.

----------


## chalkyt

Thanks for all the detailed and informative replies. Spent a day in Canberra and ended up undecided (of course!). Yes, they all feel good in the shop, especially the Masters 909 series for the price, but one thing I have learnt over the years is "what you pays for is what you gets" (at least most of the time!).  
Currently Sydney Tools, Gasweld, and others have a Makita LS1018L for around the $425 mark. I must say that compared to the Bosch Green the Makita is much more solid looking with fewer plastic bits. The big Green Shed has a Makita LS1017L for $399 but I can't do a good comparison with the LS 1018 for $60 more. As near as I can get from a USA review is that the LS1017 is Makita's entry into the DIY market via a third party manufacturer and a Makita label. I am guessing that the LS1018 is the entry level trade tool (probably not made by Makita either!) 
There has been some criticism of Makita's recent offerings re quality and accuracy both here and on Whirlpool so although I am leaning that way it is with some caution. Is this criticism compared to other makes or compared to Makitas of old? I will also have a look at the AEG since timing isn't urgent, yet!  
Re the stands... Good point. I figured it was worth getting one as both Ryobi and Ozito have them for $100+. With the old karked Icon I was doing a lot of sleeper and post work over an extended time and I set it up on a semi permanent saw horses and a plank arrangement. Fine when I started, but as I moved around the place it became a pain to either pull it apart or cut things and then cart them to where they had to be put together (and cover it when the rain started).  :Smilie:  :Smilie:  :Smilie:

----------


## YoungFella

Hi :Wink 1: 
Was looking at the SCMS today at bunnings around $400. 
Has anyone used the $459 AEG PS254SB? 
To a newbie it felt similar to the Makita LS1017l in terms of rigidity/flex. The $900 Makita certainly felt well beyond those two .
A local hardware has the Makita LS1018l for $399 (I believe the 1018 has only advantage in having a full bevel ability to the right), sort of tossing up between that and the AEG. 
The AEG offers a nicer operation on the depth stop, it actually has a cam type thing with measurements (which doubles as the storage/carry lock, so it is strong) as opposed to the Makita/Bosch which provides a bolt which either goes though a hole or sits on a random piece of metal when you turn it - the bolt setup appears to flex when pushed against so not very reliable for housing/trenching (like a cheap drill press depth stop).
 It also gives far more power motor (2000w over the 1430w Makita), not sure if that's worth anything. But it also give a built in dust extraction pump, which appears in trade show videos to work quite good without needing an external vacuum. 
However according to the AEG website the PS254 has a 30mm arbor - is this an issue for sourcing blades??  
Has anyone used the AEG PS254SB and have some thoughts on cut repeatability, noise, calibration, wobble, blades etc?

----------


## Marc

You will be hard pressed to get a good quality compound saw for under $400.
I wouldn't even look at the AEG, avoid the no name unless you want to buy a groundhog day tool like Ozito, brake it and get another before warranty expires over and over. 
The toss in my way of thinking is between Makita and Bosch, but the contest starts at $1000 or thereabouts.
Stand? Yes! ...yet you can make your own if you can weld square tubing and save yourself some $300/$400

----------


## METRIX

> You will be hard pressed to get a good quality compound saw for under $400.
> I wouldn't even look at the AEG, avoid the no name unless you want to buy a groundhog day tool like Ozito, brake it and get another before warranty expires over and over. 
> The toss in my way of thinking is between Makita and Bosch, but the contest starts at $1000 or thereabouts.
> Stand? Yes! ...yet you can make your own if you can weld square tubing and save yourself some $300/$400

  What do you find unappealing about the AEG, it seems solidly made,  at under $500 price point I would probably choose this over most other stuff out there for home use, deffinetly would choose this over a similarly priced Makita. 
Personally I won't touch another Makita again, once bitten twice shy, reason why I went Bosch Blue, and have never looked back.
Even the Bosch Blue was what I call "cheap price  in comparison to what I have paid for SCMS in the past.

----------


## Marc

I had AEG and it did not last, Makita has so many models that you can not say " I don't like makita" I have a makita that is 100 years old and keeps on going. Apple with apples, Bosh Blue, I agree. But not models under 400 or 500 for that matter. Compound saw, go 12" top of the range and you won't go wrong. Cheap stuff? Sure if you want it for home use, why not. 
With tools, there are different factors to take into account. What will it cost you if it breaks down? Will it cost you the job? the day? or does not matter since you are home cutting up your own stuff? 
Are you a tool boffin who only wants to have the best tool for the sake of it? Or are you happy with a groundhog day tool? 
Middle of the range does not always work. Sometimes it means you buy expensive cheap stuff.
It is hard to give advise on the purchase of a tool due to the variety of reasons people buy tools, the variate of purposes and job to cover.

----------


## METRIX

> I had AEG and it did not last, Makita has so many models that you can not say " I don't like makita" I have a makita that is 100 years old and keeps on going. Apple with apples, Bosh Blue, I agree. But not models under 400 or 500 for that matter. Compound saw, go 12" top of the range and you won't go wrong. Cheap stuff? Sure if you want it for home use, why not. 
> With tools, there are different factors to take into account. What will it cost you if it breaks down? Will it cost you the job? the day? or does not matter since you are home cutting up your own stuff? 
> Are you a tool boffin who only wants to have the best tool for the sake of it? Or are you happy with a groundhog day tool? 
> Middle of the range does not always work. Sometimes it means you buy expensive cheap stuff.
> It is hard to give advise on the purchase of a tool due to the variety of reasons people buy tools, the variate of purposes and job to cover.

  Agree, but the original post was after a good cheap saw for home use, not for professional trade use, so we have to stick to the budget originally specified, (I know good and cheap are not two word that can be mixed when taliking about tools). 
As much as I agree to buy the best (which I do 99% of the time), I have been burnt with the "BEST" most expensive Makita and it was rubbish, which I was really supprised about. 
 I still have 2 Japanese made 7 1/4 Makita SCMS and these are fantastic, unlike their Chinese direct replacement which was sneaked onto the market a few years ago, my mate bought as he was so impressed with mine, and it lasted 4 months before stuff started falling off, it was only used for finishing work and treated nicely, unlike my two which were carried in the ute, banged around, they are still performing like new. 
I also agree that your 100 year old Makita would still be going as Makita did make good saws 100 years ago, the LS1013 was the defact standard saw on every worksite, and for good reason it was a good saw, lets hope your's never fails, as you will be sorely dissapointed with the new breed of Makita no matter how much you pay, they look flash, but are just poor cousins to their old series. 
I am interested in which AEG you had that failed, as all their new range seems to be well sorted, for the DIY market, it looks the goods, with 6 year warranty to back this up. 
Makita only have 4 saws on offer now, 1 x 184mm, 2 x 260mm and 1 x 305mm. 
The flagship 12" LS1216 is built on the same principal as the LS1016, which is garbage, starts out cutting beautifully, but does not take long before you become mates with your local service centre.

----------


## Marc

Yes, I wish we could still buy a "skill" saw or an Elu cheap saw and it would still be a good all round saw. I have an old Elu circular saw that a mate of mine asked me if it came with a packet of cigarettes, yet I can not kill it. I bought it at the markets, used some 20 years ago.
 The AEG in question was I believe a smaller 184mm compound saw that I used for a couple of roofs and carked, I burned it beyond repair. It was a gift so I did not have the proof of purchase and was not game to ask for it. I made it disappear and it is probably still gathering dust in some obscure corner of my workshed.  
Only 4? It seems they make way more than 4 models to me. Yet I am not arguing that the Makita quality does not compare to the Japanese made of the 80ties and 90ties.
it is because of the overall poor quality of smaller tools that you must buy way bigger tools than the job requires just to have a reliable one.

----------


## METRIX

On the Makita website they only show 4 models, but Sydney Tools shows many more, perhaps Sydney Tools are grey importing more models ?
I still have my Dad's old SkilSaw, the casing was all metal, and weighed a ton, in comparison to todays plastic toys. 
With the AEG brand, I read that Techtronics own Milwalkee, Ryobi and AEG, the Ryobi is pushed as DIY, with the AEG Orange pushed to serious DIY with Milwalkee to trade use, looking at the AEG impacts and drills, they seem to be built as well as any other major brand,  
But as they are newer to the market only time will tell, but they have the longest tool and battery warranty.

----------


## Rhys93

I have bought the AEG PS254SB yesterday. Seems pretty sturdy and much more substantial than the Makita or Ryobi (and Ozito) at similar price. Time will tell if it lasts, however 6 year warranty (requires registration) is decent if they honour it and keep parts. Even 3 years is a far cry from the usual 12 months at this price range. 
Straight out of the box I cut some 90mm pine posts and it is 99% square. Cut is beautiful with no fuss. Did some trenches and was consistent. The depth stop maxes out at around 63mm above the base, if you want more than that you will need a modification of the depth stop.
Laser a bit off square (need calibration) but the laser line is not that sharp anyway (it's just a guide) and unlike another brand the laser is powered not a silly battery. Maybe it doesn't compare to the $1000+ top of the line models (yeah like a toyota doesn't compare a ferrari) but it feels like a pretty solid kit.  
Integrated dust extraction system is excellent for having no additional vacuum and soon the bucket was filling with fine dust and only a few bits on the floor (not enough to even bother sweeping). The only time it struggled was cutting the 90mm posts which would block the intake (same with any vacuum) 
Motor noise is just ok, maybe suitable for 1 or 2 cuts with no protection but for any decent time you want some ear protection. 
The combo kit at bunnings I believe has the stand for an extra $40 (or maybe it was extra $140 can't remember), I didn't bother as those things are never long enough. If you're going grab a box take a mate, the box is huge and has no handles whatsoever.

----------


## METRIX

> I have bought the AEG PS254SB yesterday. Seems pretty sturdy and much more substantial than the Makita or Ryobi (and Ozito) at similar price. Time will tell if it lasts, however 6 year warranty (requires registration) is decent if they honour it and keep parts. Even 3 years is a far cry from the usual 12 months at this price range. 
> Straight out of the box I cut some 90mm pine posts and it is 99% square. Cut is beautiful with no fuss. Did some trenches and was consistent. The depth stop maxes out at around 63mm above the base, if you want more than that you will need a modification of the depth stop.
> Laser a bit off square (need calibration) but the laser line is not that sharp anyway (it's just a guide) and unlike another brand the laser is powered not a silly battery. Maybe it doesn't compare to the $1000+ top of the line models (yeah like a toyota doesn't compare a ferrari) but it feels like a pretty solid kit.  
> Integrated dust extraction system is excellent for having no additional vacuum and soon the bucket was filling with fine dust and only a few bits on the floor (not enough to even bother sweeping). The only time it struggled was cutting the 90mm posts which would block the intake (same with any vacuum) 
> Motor noise is just ok, maybe suitable for 1 or 2 cuts with no protection but for any decent time you want some ear protection. 
> The combo kit at bunnings I believe has the stand for an extra $40 (or maybe it was extra $140 can't remember), I didn't bother as those things are never long enough. If you're going grab a box take a mate, the box is huge and has no handles whatsoever.

  
Good to know, I looked these the other day and they looked solid, and for a price point of under $500 I think they are good value.
Warranty 3 year to 6 year via redemption this s normal and how most manufactureres do it. 
Noise, this is also normal with all saws, some worse than others, Bosch Green are VERY NOISY.
Integrated dust extraction this is something Bosch really need to work on, either Green or Blue they all suck, even when a vac is attached it leaves crap everywhere, thats one thing my old Makita had sorted. 
Would be interested to know how it goes long term.

----------


## Marc

> On the Makita website they only show 4 models, but Sydney Tools shows many more, perhaps Sydney Tools are grey importing more models ?
> I still have my Dad's old SkilSaw, the casing was all metal, and weighed a ton, in comparison to todays plastic toys. 
> With the AEG brand, I read that Techtronics own Milwaukee, Ryobi and AEG, the Ryobi is pushed as DIY, with the AEG Orange pushed to serious DIY with Milwaukee to trade use, looking at the AEG impacts and drills, they seem to be built as well as any other major brand,  
> But as they are newer to the market only time will tell, but they have the longest tool and battery warranty.

  My daughter's father in law is an electrician and he had all the battery set from AEG bought 3 years ago. The drill and the impact driver gave up the ghost very soon and somehow he couldn't get the warranty honored. I think he still has the torch and some other tool. I bought him a set from Milwaukee because he never charges me for the work he does and he tells me they are way better. I know that a compound saw is not an impact driver, just talking about brands. I have a ryobi blue electric planer, occasional use, yet when I use it I give it heaps. Never a problem in 10 years.  
It's hard to make a rule based on brands anymore. Generally speaking each brand has it's best tool and the others not so ... Milwaukee for example has the best reciprocating saw on the market. Compound saw, you can not beat the Bosch 12", the SDS max rotary hammers, besides Hilti you have Metabo the rest, who knows!
If AEG makes a decent home use compound saw, that is good news. The DIY home tools have generally speaking turned so disgustingly bad that I don't even look at the Bunnings' display anymore.

----------


## phild01

> My daughter's father in law is an electrician and he had all the battery set from AEG bought 3 years ago. The drill and the impact driver gave up the ghost very soon and somehow he couldn't get the warranty honored.

  Eek, might be the same AEG 18V drill and impact driver I have.  Always enjoy using these and they replaced my 2 old bosch units that I took a dislike to.  No problem with these.

----------


## Rhys93

> Good to know, I looked these the other day and they looked solid, and for a price point of under $500 I think they are good value.
> Warranty 3 year to 6 year via redemption this s normal and how most manufactureres do it. 
> Noise, this is also normal with all saws, some worse than others, Bosch Green are VERY NOISY.
> Integrated dust extraction this is something Bosch really need to work on, either Green or Blue they all suck, even when a vac is attached it leaves crap everywhere, thats one thing my old Makita had sorted. 
> Would be interested to know how it goes long term.

  I'll be giving it a go over the next month on a few hundred pine cuts. Probably our (oldish) Makita saw will get a bigger workout in the Triton table doing tons of ripping but it will tell if the motor in the AEG will fall off or burn out in a week or not. 
I will report if it falls apart. 
Very pleased with the several inches of dust already collected in the bucket, really love not needing a vacuum, hopefully the "turbo" fan blades don't wear out too quickly.
BTW you guys might think the LED light under the blade is a useless gimmick but it got a well use today when we were cutting at 5:30 - 6pm. Great for measuring under and lining up the cut when a flood light is not good enough.

----------


## Marc

I wouldn't worry too much. Cordless tools are produced by the truckload and they are bound to have a percentage of bad ones. I don't know the details of why they did not honor the warranty but knowing my daughter's in law, I don't think he was too assertive and probably tossed them in the bin on the way out of the store. 
I bought a set of Makita when they came out with the black celebration special edition  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  and they have been absolutely fantastic, but in cordless I think that besides the ridiculously overpriced Panasonic, Milwaukee is the winner.  
So, back to the compound sliding saw, what is the best suggestion?

----------


## phild01

Somehow I just can't get it out of my mind Milwaukee being a cheap ebay brand.

----------


## METRIX

> Somehow I just can't get it out of my mind Milwaukee being a cheap ebay brand.

  I have the Milwalkee 240v Reciprocator, it is fantastic, My mates 240 Metabo was in service 3 times in 8 months, he got rid of it and bought the Milwalkee and very happy with it.

----------


## METRIX

In relation to any SCSM, I have attached some pics of outdoor table I am  currently building, the cuts were done with a Bosch Blue series, as you  can see the results are basically spot on, no change in depth from cut  to cut, and you can make the cuts very fine something a cheap saw cannot  do accurately, a quick clean with a chisel and the results are all the  same. 
This is the difference between a cheap saw and a good quality one (and  blade), you won't achieve the accuracy on a cheap saw, and the results  won't be repeatable.
Repetability is mandatory when making furniture or fitouts with tight tolerences. 
All this was done on a 10", the 7 1/4 Makitas I have are even better,  with a good saw, you should be able to cut the timber, and put the cut  back together and almost not see it.

----------


## Rhys93

> In relation to any SCSM, I have attached some pics of outdoor table I am  currently building, the cuts were done with a Bosch Blue series, as you  can see the results are basically spot on, no change in depth from cut  to cut, and you can make the cuts very fine something a cheap saw cannot  do accurately, a quick clean with a chisel and the results are all the  same.

   Hi mate, how do you go about moving long heavy timber that few mm to the next cut? Do you just jiggle it till it moves? Or grab a wood hammer and tap leftwards?
Familiar looking chisel btw!

----------

