# Forum Home Renovation Solar Electrical Systems  Solar Panel query

## garfield

Hi all, 
The wife and I were contemplating getting a 1.9kw solar system installed. At this current time we have missed out on the rebate, so no 60 cents or 20cents for anything we put back into the grid.  
So my query is given our quarterly bill is roughly $600 I was wondering is there any significant saving without the rebate? If our bill came down to say $400 every quarter then I would still say it's a saving worth making but I have no idea what I could expect to save with that system.   
So if anyone has any advice or experience with a 1.9kw solar system and you don't get the rebate I'd love to hear if you are making any worthwhile saving. 
Thanks very much 
Geoff

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## SilentButDeadly

Information about connecting a solar system to the grid for any customer | Industry & Investment NSW 
With a 1.9kw setup you were never going to get much of a feed-in anyway.  All a system like that will do is reduce the amount of electricity you buy from the retailer by [simplistically] making your meter spin backwards. 
So you cough up $6.5K to save a few hundred bucks per annum.   
You are better off looking at your energy usage first......reduce what electricity you use rather than making more.  If you have one or more of the following: electric hot water; a fridge older than five years (or more than one); reverse cycle air con; a pool; a washing machine/dishwasher that heats its own water; then you have other fish to fry before investing in solar energy.

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## garfield

WOW.... what a kick in the butt! 
So are you saying there's just no point in getting the solar panels at all?? As far as price goes I have two options. The reason I asked about if there was value there even without the rebate is because my sister-inlaw and her partner own their own business which is installing solar panels, so my options are this - 
$3,700 for a 1.9kw installed through the sister-inlaws business, I would get the 60cents a kw as my wife signed a contract of some sort before the rebate expired, but I need to pay up front. I don't have that kind'a dough put away at the moment, so my wife would need to hit the Mother and father-inlaw up for the money which I so badly don't wanna do!!  
Option:2 is Origin energy who have the 1.9kw installed for $4000 interest free over 2 years with a $200 up front fee. I wouldn't be eligible for either the 60 - or 20 cent rebate as our other contract will be null and void if we were to change contractors.  
I'd much rather option 2 but aren't real keen to go into debt for solar panels if there is no worthwhile savings. 
Knowing that there is energy savings I could make by being smarter around the home is common sense to some degree and I will certainly look what and where I can make those savings, but I thought that having solar panels too would make for some really good savings on my quarterly electricity bills in the meantime??  
I'd really love to hear from someone who has a similar set up to what I'm looking at and I'd still seriously be interested if they made any saving at all.  
Thanks
Geoff

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## Bruiser

I totally concur SBD's load reduction suggestions.  Also, you should be cautious about what 1.9kW actually is.  If it refers to the solar array, you'll probably find that it gets multiplied by 0.8 a couple of times by the time it goes from being sunlight to being a kW at your power outlet. 
Also, depending on where you are, you won't get that for all sunlight hours - more like 4-5 hrs per day.  So, if we assume you actually get 1kW at the outlet, you'll offset 1kW x 5h = 5kWh per day.  At 20c a unit, you're looking at paying about $3,700 to save a dollar a day.  If you put the money in the bank, at 5%, you'd make 3700 x 0.05/365 = 0.5 $/day.  Sure, you won't get 5% on your savings, but you're no doubt paying it on your mortgage.

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## Hoff

> I totally concur SBD's load reduction suggestions.  Also, you should be cautious about what 1.9kW actually is.  If it refers to the solar array, you'll probably find that it gets multiplied by 0.8 a couple of times by the time it goes from being sunlight to being a kW at your power outlet. 
> Also, depending on where you are, you won't get that for all sunlight hours - more like 4-5 hrs per day.  So, if we assume you actually get 1kW at the outlet, you'll offset 1kW x 5h = 5kWh per day.  At 20c a unit, you're looking at paying about $3,700 to save a dollar a day.  If you put the money in the bank, at 5%, you'd make 3700 x 0.05/365 = 0.5 $/day.  Sure, you won't get 5% on your savings, but you're no doubt paying it on your mortgage.

   A 10% risk free and tax free return is a good use of capital.

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## garfield

> I totally concur SBD's load reduction suggestions.  Also, you should be cautious about what 1.9kW actually is.  If it refers to the solar array, you'll probably find that it gets multiplied by 0.8 a couple of times by the time it goes from being sunlight to being a kW at your power outlet. 
> Also, depending on where you are, you won't get that for all sunlight hours - more like 4-5 hrs per day.  So, if we assume you actually get 1kW at the outlet, you'll offset 1kW x 5h = 5kWh per day.  At 20c a unit, you're looking at paying about $3,700 to save a dollar a day.  If you put the money in the bank, at 5%, you'd make 3700 x 0.05/365 = 0.5 $/day.  Sure, you won't get 5% on your savings, but you're no doubt paying it on your mortgage.

  So do I take that as a "NO" you'd be mad to get solar panels installed?? Our house (where the panels would be installed) faces North East, so it basically cops sun the whole day if there is any.  
I'm a real novice with all these calculations and kw etc.... infact I have no idea! My understanding is you only receive money back if you power the grid - right? As stated above in this thread I more than likely wouldn't power the grid and to be honest that doesn't bother me as I don't really wish to power the grid to try and make money, but more so just want to reduce my intake from intergral thus reduce my electricity bill.  
I looked at a graph on this website Average daily production for solar PV cells in Australia  that estimates the average kw generated by a 2.0kw system in Sydney is around 7.8kwh daily which would knock off more than a quarter of our daily average use - so does that equate to money savings in our electricity bill?

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## Smurf

I disagree that there would not be significant feed-in from such a system. I've looked at the performance of several small (1 - 1.5 KW) systems installed in Tasmania and typically they end up exporting around 60% of production to the grid. Unless you've got a substantial load running all day then you will see at least some exports. 
As for how much you'll save, expect to produce somewhere around 2500 kWh per annum give or take a bit. Your electricity supplier (or you last bill) can tell you what that is worth in $. 
I get about 1700 kWh per annum out of my 1.36 kW system and I'm located in Hobart. You should get more with a larger system and being in NSW will add a bit too given the more suitable climate.

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## johnc

I agree with Silent, however if you are not at home during the day you will export power back to the grid and for what you are paying for the system it is not a bad deal, but mainly from a feel good point of view. At $600 per quarter your energy use is high, there is probably a lot you can do with $4,000 that wil reduce that bill than solar power.

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## garfield

Appreciate the replies. 
I am only just starting to look into all of this as my wife is hell bent on getting solar power at the moment.  
I not long ago mentioned to my wife that with our usage that we more than likely wouldn't put power into the grid anyway, but as I say don't understand it as yet, so it's during the day that the power is transferred to the grid? if that was the case then I guess we would have some value there wouldn't we.....just a tiny bit?  :Biggrin:  
I don't know how true it is but my Sister-inlaw told my wife that for last quarter her electricity bill was zero and that intergral owed her $91 in credit I'm led to believe that her usual bill is around the $500 a quarter - She has a 3kw solar system. So that would be roughly from April till the end of June... not the warmest months of the year... Does that sound like a Porky?  
Anyhow I will keep reading up on this forum and others to try and get a better understanding of it all, but really appreciate all the advice and help I get from forum members here till I make up my mind. 
Cheers
Geoff

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## Bruiser

No, I'm not saying you're mad.  Smurf disagrees with me, and his/her information should temper my very simple calc for you.  The whole discussion is posing some questions for you though!  I do think it's worth trying to break the factors down, and I think mortgage interest is often ignored. 
If you're eligible for feed-in tariff, it changes the payback a bit, but to my understanding your PV kwh is paid at a lower rate than the utility's (Smurf?). So the other way to look at it is that it could offset your power - 'turn your meter backwards' - so your bill is reduced by a higher amount. 
It's also worth looking at why your wife is mad keen on it.  It's not always about dollars - she (and therefore 50% of the collective You) may value solar for other reasons.

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## woodbe

You can get a good idea on outputs from pvoutput.org (I think you have to join to search for PV systems in NSW of 1.9kW (but joining is free) 
I had a look, there are several (3) such systems and average daily output ranges from 6 kWh/day to 7.7kWh/day 
If you are not home during the day and minimise your power consumption during that time, you should be able to export much of your production. This is a good thing if you are on a Nett Feed-in Tariff. 
Your Bill is $600 - about 3000kWh/quarter, 33kWh/day?
If you got 60c Gross, and generated 7kWh/day then $378 reduction per quarter.
If you got 20c nett, and exported 5kWh/day then $90 reduction per quarter. 
Your situation, roof angle, and ability to get any feed-in at all would have to be taken into account, but in any case it is clear that a 1.9kW system will not eliminate a $600 quarterly bill. A 3kW system on 60c Gross might well eliminate a $500 bill though, so your sister in law may not be telling porkies...  :Smilie:  
Basically, unless you have the cash and are able to get the 60c, I think you might get better results reducing consumption than spending money you don't have on PV 
woodbe

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## zzkazu

Have a look at this forum,  helped me assess my solar system.  http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/143 
outputs..  Gasless 2.280kW

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## ringtail

"The wife and I were contemplating getting a 1.9kw solar system installed.  At this current time we have missed out on the rebate, so no 60 cents  or 20cents for anything we put back into the grid. " 
So does this mean that you get nothing at all for feeding back into the grid ? If so, you would be giving the power company and the neighbours free electricity and in effect paying them for it too. Unless you are at home all day and using every drop of solar power created.

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## zzkazu

The answer varies state to state,  some are gross other net, I'm not sure about QLD.

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## woodbe

> The answer varies state to state,  some are gross other net, I'm not sure about QLD.

  Plenty of info on the net. QLD is 0.44/kWh Nett, NSW is currently transitioning to Nett after having a 60c Gross FIT that was oversubscribed. 
Energy retailers may pay over and above the proscribed FIT, there are moves to make that a requirement in SA, not sure if it made it into the new legislation. 
woodbe

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## ringtail

So do all energy retailers in all states have to by law pay you a feed in tarrif ?

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## president_ltd

> So do all energy retailers in all states have to by law pay you a feed in tarrif ?

  varies from state-to-state what the exact rules are.  see the table on EM's website at Feed-in Tariff : Solar and wind power in Australia - Energy Matters which seems to be up-to-date. 
approx. 35 sqm & 4.86KW of panels on my roof in SE Melb suburbs here.  in our case, its got a ROI of about 14% and for the first year we have had it, its resulted in turning what would otherwise be ~$1100 power bill into a ~$1500 credit, i.e. ~$2600 net difference, despite being put on a TOU tariff structure in order to get the Vic Net PFIT.
(the TOU isn't that bad but basically it does make you think about things differently - e.g. dishwasher timer start for after 11pm, same for pool pump etc)

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## SilentButDeadly

> So do I take that as a "NO" you'd be mad to get solar panels installed??

  You're not mad for contemplating solar panels (if you were mad then I must be too).  However, like I and others have said, there are many cheaper things you can do first..... 
Only once you've minimised your load on the grid would I contemplate installing panels.   
Think on the good old 80:20 rule.  80% of the problem can be solved with 20% of the budget.  But the last 20% of the problem will cost 80% of the budget. 
Solar panels fall into the latter...

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## garfield

Thanks for the replies. 
I spoke to 2 guys at work today about solar as they have had it for the last 9 months or so.  
Guy one has a 1.5kw system usual quarterly bill is $450 mark. First bill they mucked up so as they only rebated him the 20 cents instead of the 60 that he is entitled to, so they credited him x amount and he hasn't had to pay anything on his last 2 bills and he said that his latest bill states that he still has over a $100 in credit. 
Guy 2 has a 1.9kw system and has had his as long as guy 1. He's quarterly average is $600, he had nothing at all to pay for the first 2 bills and the last one only had to pay $120... 
On those figures I just can't help but think I have to hit the inlaws up for the loan to have a 1,9kw system as I think there could be some savings there for me - I HOPE  :Rolleyes:

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## nww1969

I was lucky to get in on the first round of rebates and ended getting a "no cost to you offer"
So the 1kw system cost me nothing not even connection.
The system has now been installed for 12 months and in this time we have never paid a
electricity bill but we did a lot of other things to help this other than just relying on the system.
We are currently in credit of $265.00 for the 12 month period, our quarterly bill is normally
around the $180 down from $300.
We made some big changes when the system was first installed, a new energy efficient fridge
elecrolux 550L rated at 420kw , having this upside down fridge with big draws at the bottom
made it possible to do a way with the box freezer.
I also reduced the thermostat in the electric water heater to the minimum, we now have quarterly
off peak of around $30 for hot water so I doubt it will ever be viable to go solar hot water when
our hot water bill is $100 bucks a year.
Next purchase will be an energy/water efficient washing machine and new LCD LED tv.
I have also replaced all the out door spot lights with the new energy saver spot lights,(80% saving).
Next step is to look at placing some LED lights via batteries and solar panel I was given. 
No heating cost due to combustion stove but looking at reducing the fire wood work load 
by building a solar heater to warn the house.

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## garfield

Solar heater..? Sounds tops! Never heard of them though. So they're better then a wood fire heater?

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## nww1969

> Solar heater..? Sounds tops! Never heard of them though. So they're better then a wood fire heater?

  I am in the gathering stage to make a small sample one like the links below.
I expect it will supplement the wood heater during sunny periods during winter.
Possibly only require wood heater during server overcast rainy periods.
Plenty of utube solar heaters examples.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9bBnRQWRro&NR=1  &#x202a;SOLAR FURNACE HEAT COLLECTOR FREE ENERGY HOW TO TOTAL COST $100&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube  &#x202a;Solar Heater&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

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## SilentButDeadly

> Solar heater..? Sounds tops! Never heard of them though. So they're better then a wood fire heater?

  Sun Lizard | Home Page | Welcome  The company is not going any longer but the idea is still very very sound...... 
One that is still going is Welcome to SolarVenti Ltd.

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## Steffen595

well, with new carbon tax there could be 50 bucks in it, too? 1kWh is valued at 1kg carbon, so my 5kWH per day is 1825 kg CO2 per anum, if I had a 1kW PV I would offset at least half of that? Solar hot water gets me next to no gas consumption in summer (just cooking) but since 1st of May there is maybe 5 days of sun per month in Melbourne, so means booster on since 2nd of May for maybe 6 months... Same PV, would not do much.
Next thing: with new smart meters, how is it going to be then, since the PV would feed in at peak times and I would take out off peak? Unless off peak is 1 AM to 5 AM like with broadband (20GB peak, 480GM between 1 AM and 5 AM awesome 500GB plans)

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