# Forum Home Renovation The Garden Shed  New shed Lining and insulating

## Moondog55

We are paying for the foam and RFL on both the walls and roof so the interior has some protection from the start. But we all know this isn't enough.
What is the easiest way to line a big shed with "C" section supports at 2500mm centres? What would be the cheapest? What's the best compromise?
Similar questions for insulating the walls
Having seen how well foilboard type products work in other steel framed and clad building I thought it would be the best to use on the roofs interior

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## SilentButDeadly

Our new shed will have what I believe is EPS foam sandwiched between foil skins as its insulation. The product comes in a roll... 
Then I plan to partially line the walls with 19mm structafloor on its end (did this in the last shed). And I might whack a bit more insulation in it behind the flooring. Just some routine glass fibre stuff.

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## Moondog55

I did think about using plywood, cut to fit the spacing but I thought that 2400/ 2500 was going to wobble a bit. If you use the flooring vertically how did you support the edges?

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## SilentButDeadly

It's all tongue and groove...and 19 mm high density chipboard is surprisingly stiff. It was the cheapest per square metre of coverage too.

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## Moondog55

Thanks SBD
I know it is reasonably strong; is it strong enough to fix shelf brackets to?

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## David.Elliott

Not clear what the intended use for the completed shed is, but for the one I'm converting to a studio for the wife I framed, insulated with batts and then clad with fibre cement and battens like old cottages were done.   
Also took the front sliding doors off, and ran a verandah along with french doors and windows...

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## Moondog55

Partly [ OK mainly] storage but partly man cave use to build and test speakers and as a place to keep the party sound system and all the beer fridges/spare freezers with one corner set aside to store the poisons and semi-explosives etc

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## johnc

Unless you intend putting a car on a shelf the structafloor will hold anything you need. Use a chipboard screw probably pre drilled. I used 9mm bracing ply on one wall which isn't suitable for your job and it holds brackets very well. The rest is 12mm tounge and groove pine panelling which i go for free in return for removing it for nothing. Seemed a good deal to me. If I rebuild then yellow tounge is probably what I'd use next.

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## phild01

I have had no issues with shelving on my yellow tongue lining either.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Thanks SBD
> I know it is reasonably strong; is it strong enough to fix shelf brackets to?

  You are joking, right? Many people have their house frames screwed into it and it stops them blowing away.... according to the Building Code anyway. 
Otherwise, yes.

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## Moondog55

Not joking because I have no experience with this product at all but I have had shelf brackets pull out of ordinary chipboard.

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## Whitey66

> Not clear what the intended use for the completed shed is, but for the one I'm converting to a studio for the wife I framed, insulated with batts and then clad with fibre cement and battens like old cottages were done.   
> Also took the front sliding doors off, and ran a verandah along with french doors and windows...

  Is that going to have a ceiling in it??

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## droog

> I have had shelf brackets pull out of ordinary chipboard.

  What are you hanging on your brackets ?
Type of screw, screw gauge and number of screws will all help. If the screws are pulling out then the forces are acting in the wrong direction, all load should be in shear. Or different design of brackets may be required for your intended use.

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## Moondog55

> What are you hanging on your brackets ?
> Type of screw, screw gauge and number of screws will all help. If the screws are pulling out then the forces are acting in the wrong direction, all load should be in shear. Or different design of brackets may be required for your intended use.

  Back when I had the kids with me sometimes. I had kayaks hanging off big brackets, naturally over time they had stuff shoved in them. Chipboard screws naturally and it was thin 16mm chipboard but one day a bracket did pull out. I still have the big brackets but sold the kayaks ages ago
Left big holes in the chipboard
 I was share housing and using the garage in the rental house

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## David.Elliott

Ceiling is in..
here's an early photo...I ran battens between the purlins with 130mm (R3.6)  foil blanket and then clad with FC and battened over like the walls...                 
Sourced some year old flooring at a bargain rate and put that down too...

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## r3nov8or

> You are joking, right? Many people have their house frames screwed into it and it stops them blowing away.... according to the Building Code anyway.

  Hmmm. I'm trying to find an AS that says that screwing into particulate flooring (alone) provides adequate tie-down...  :Confused:

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## SilentButDeadly

> Hmmm. I'm trying to find an AS that says that screwing into particulate flooring (alone) provides adequate tie-down...

  Ha...true. But then it depends what the particulate flooring is screwed to doesn't it! If it was screwed down on a copy of the AS then it'll probably be OK?

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## r3nov8or

Hmmmm. No.    :Smilie:

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## Uncle Bob

Hows it all working out Ted?

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## Moondog55

> Hows it all working out Ted?

  I'll probably try and get a pack price on plywood and use ply everywhere. Still waiting on council approval

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## SilentButDeadly

> I'll probably try and get a pack price on plywood and use ply everywhere. Still waiting on council approval

  Where I am...a 2.4x1.2m (2.88 sqm) sheet of 17mm t&g plywood flooring is about $75 while a 3.6x0.9m (3.24sqm) sheet of 19mm yellow tongue structaflor (particle board) is about $50. So I know what I'm going with...

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## Moondog55

Yes but I won't be using 17mm on the walls and certainly not the T&G. Still haven't had a price on the full pack tho so I am happy to change my mind

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## r3nov8or

If the walls were framed out, would a thin OSB be a good choice? I have a bit to do myself

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## SilentButDeadly

> If the walls were framed out, would a thin OSB be a good choice? I have a bit to do myself

  Sure would. The framing would help too when it comes to hanging stuff... especially at 450 centres.  
But again...be mindful of the price per sqm of the OSB (70x35? + OSB) against Structaflor. Though the OSB would be easier to handle, simply on weight alone!

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## Moondog55

Been thinking about the Structafloor, based on your comment above I don't think I could move it and hold it in position so perhaps I also need to think about 7mm OSB rather than 12mm ply where it won't be taking too many knocks?
The thing about using ply & OSB tho is that it can be bought in a 1200mm width so only 3 sections needed to get the height

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## SilentButDeadly

> Been thinking about the Structafloor, based on your comment above I don't think I could move it and hold it in position so perhaps I also need to think about 7mm OSB rather than 12mm ply where it won't be taking too many knocks?
> The thing about using ply & OSB tho is that it can be bought in a 1200mm width so only 3 sections needed to get the height

  You may be able to source 2nd grade 12mm ply or similar in your area given the level of industry there. Especially if there's a company that makes or uses plywood packing cases for larger items. I've seen some come up in Sydney and Melbourne on eBay and Gumtree...and the pricing was very good. 
It's also worth noting that none of the OSB sheeting available in this country is made here. This is important to some punters who'd prefer a locally made product...

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## Whitey66

> Been thinking about the Structafloor, based on your comment above I don't think I could move it and hold it in position so perhaps I also need to think about 7mm OSB rather than 12mm ply where it won't be taking too many knocks?
> The thing about using ply & OSB tho is that it can be bought in a 1200mm width so only 3 sections needed to get the height

   I did my 3 metre walls with Structaflor and fitted them vertically on my own, probably would have needed help if placing them horizontally. Vertically worked better for me and with the offcuts, I just glued and biscuit joined them together to make full lengths.

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## Moondog55

Good point Whitey
I may have to wait until the shed is erected and see if a vertical lay is possible.
A secondary matter is insulation.
I am wondering if simply using the cheapest RFL on the walls would be enough in conjunction with the foam and foil that will be put there at construction.
it's heat gain in summer that concerns me mainly, not losing heat in winter and if it does get cold enough to need heating I'll find a small pot belly

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## SilentButDeadly

Insulation.
Shed. 
Looks like I'll be using Structaflor in the vertical orientation (same as last time). Not going to worry about additional insulation due to the height, the size of the main opening and the fact the roof will be Surfmist. Plus the last shed had similar R value insulation in NW Victoria and was fine! Walls are colourbond Wallaby.

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## Whitey66

What is the thickness of the foilboard you are using?
I just lined the colorbond cladding side with Sisalation (RFL), installed Earthwool then fitted the Structaflor over that. It's very good at keeping out heat and keeping noise in  :Wink:

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## Moondog55

We'll use what we can afford but aiming for 25mm on the roof, the roof being where I think the heat gain will be greatest

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## Moondog55

Somebody close by has just listed a large quantity of used 12mm Formply for sale at $10- a sheet.
2400 * 1200 * 12mm
I assume used formply would be OK for flooring doubling up possibly
Seller says there is plenty but for sale cheap to get space

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## SilentButDeadly

> Somebody close by has just listed a large quantity of used 12mm Formply for sale at $10- a sheet.
> 2400 * 1200 * 12mm
> I assume used formply would be OK for flooring doubling up possibly
> Seller says there is plenty but for sale cheap to get space

  That's a fine price if it's in decent shape. 
Doubling it up to use as flooring should be OK if you offset the joins in the two layers.

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## Moondog55

As I will be using this shed for a bit of music I thought of using pressed wood pallets as part of the wall lining but I am having trouble finding the dozen or so I will need in as-new condition. Shed kit gets delivered in 3 weeks now and the concreters still haven't been to set up but at least we have a delivery date now for the materials.

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## Moondog55

I just got a quote for new PWP's $22- each plus $80- delivery Minimum order is 5 
I can't drive to Mordialloc and back for $80- with trailer hire so delivery is reasonable. I now have to decide if the extra cost Vs plain lining with sound bounce is worth it, but I may be able to afford $300- if it helps me with my other hobby.
Also thinking about woollen blankets stuffed with rockwool or fibreglass as absorbers as a room needs both types of treatment but I can hang blankets from the roof at any time.

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## Moondog55

Question?
How do most people attach lining sheets to the inside of these steel sheds?
Is it OK to simply glue and screw directly to the horizontal tophat sections?
If it is OK to do so what glue would be better to use; something strong but with give such as SikaFlex 11C or is a cheaper builders glue like No-More-Nails OK?
Also using standard sheets how many Teks are needed on a 900mm or 1200mm sheet. Edge plus centre OK?
Top tophat is at 2570mm so I was going to use the 2745 ply sheets. 
While the concrete pad does have a plastic vapour barrier should I also use a damp course down low? A roll or two of plastic won't break the bank after all the other costs

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## Moondog55

Second hand ply just listed nearby
What is a "cover sheet" when talking about plywood and other sheets ? Is is simply the outer layer of a full pallet. A different seller this time but 16mm HMR chipboard in 2400 * 1200mm and somebody else has 3600*1800*12mm packing sheets for $15- each with a discount for lots of 10+

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## MorganGT

> What is a "cover sheet" when talking about plywood and other sheets ?

  My understanding is it is the top (and bottom?) sheets of a bound stack/pallet, since these are the ones that are likely to be marked by contact with the pallet, or have 'notches' at their edges from the strapping. I think the assumption is that these will almost always end up slightly marked, so they are regarded as seconds, although they are likely to still have one good unmarked side.

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## Moondog55

Is it OK to remove the fly bracing when I add the lining sheets and screw back over the ply or do I have to cut out a notch in the lining?

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## SilentButDeadly

You'll struggle to remove the bracing because access to the screws will be tough. The bracing itself won't really impact on the alignment of your lining. 
If you are still worried about it when the time comes then some foam tape on the top hat will sort out clearance issues.

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## Moondog55

It's not the diagonal bracing so much as the fly bracing on the "C" pillars. 
Should be finished today so I can get in and take a few pictures.

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## r3nov8or

Are you planning to add wall lining over the C pillars/posts?

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## Moondog55

> Are you planning to add wall lining over the C pillars/posts?

  No. So far the plan was simply to clad over the girts using a combination of flexible glue/gap filler plus a couple of Tek screws to hold it while the glue sets

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## r3nov8or

> No. So far the plan was simply to clad over the girts using a combination of flexible glue/gap filler plus a couple of Tek screws to hold it while the glue sets

  OK, can you point out in a pics which bracing you are calling "fly bracing"?

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## Moondog55

As I understand it the "Fly" bracing is there to stop the "C" pillars from rotating

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## r3nov8or

I see. I'm used to seeing it on roof purlins. I can see why you'd want to work under it rather than cut around it. If you don't fix it directly back to steel on steel I reckon it will be looser, not under stress, not as effective, if you get my meaning. A good compromise may be cutting a suitable hole in your lining boards and then fixing the brace back to original fixing

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## r3nov8or

Whatever you do, best to check with the builder to ensure warranty is not affected

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## SilentButDeadly

> As I understand it the "Fly" bracing is there to stop the "C" pillars from rotating

  Ahh those...yeah undo them, fit your lining then replace them as they were. That's what I did anyway...

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## Moondog55

This KingSpan insulation is pretty good stuff. I think we may have made the right decision but only a few 40C days in a row will really tell

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## Moondog55

OK So the green shed no longer stock 7mm plywood. They do however have a new product in stock which isn't on the website. It's SwissKrono OSB and it comes in 3600 * 900 and reasonably light. About 15mm thick, fellers says it is actually designed as lining board and has sound and thermal properties but I would need to research and confirm that independently. It's $36- a sheet; which makes using it a bit more money in the short term but the wall would be finished top to bottom in one hit

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## SilentButDeadly

That's pretty damn cheap for something that thick...well worth a look I reckon.

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## Moondog55

I am looking but as I don't have a set of tall trestles working to 3600 will be difficult.

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## Moondog55

Had a small win this week, Cecile found 7 full sheets of 10mm Foilboard for $50- delivered to our door plus lots of offcuts and I also picked up 2 freebie MDF cover sheets in good condition

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## Moondog55

I bought a couple of sheets of that Swiss-Krono OSB to trial; I will be using it to do all the walls. It is solid enough but so much lighter than yellow tongue flooring I can maneuver a sheet on my own, just.
Needed to trim 20mm off the top to make it fit.
Bunnings have it selling as flooring but I don't think it is durable enough to use as flooring in a shed
But doing all the walls has to wait until the electrics have been done and that will be after XMas as our sparkie is going away on holiday until January, he's putting in one GPO on the day before he leaves, maybe I can get him to add a light too if he has enough time to do the extra circuit

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## r3nov8or

> Swiss-Krono OSB

  Do you reckon this is only at your local Bunnings (North Geelong?). Weird it's not on the website

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## Moondog55

No idea; it is strange that it isn't on the website tho. But at the price and ease of use I am going to buy more as I get the funds. Not cashed up enough to do it in one single purchase but while Cecile and I were there this morning some bloke bought a full pack so not many left on the floor.

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## Moondog55

It's hot here already and so far the insulation seems to be working well.
We have a spare "Thinking Cap" roof vent which was supposed to be used on the house when we repair a damaged roofing sheet but now I am wondering if using it in the garage would be a smarter option.
EDIT
A short follow-up post.
After being in the sun all morning the shed is OK still but the amount of heat radiating into it from the roller door is huge.
It will definitely need shading. Either reinforcing the structure for shade sail attachment or something free standing.
Gusting to 41 knots all day so far so any shade sail anchorage would have to be as strong as the ones on the house
41C here at the moment

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## SilentButDeadly

Which is why we have sliding doors with insulation on them...

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## Moondog55

> Which is why we have sliding doors with insulation on them...

  Yes I think that would have been a better option but it maybe wasn't affordable for us, and I don't remember it being offered as an option.

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## Cecile

> I don't remember it being offered as an option.

  I don't even think we asked.

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## SilentButDeadly

> I don't even think we asked.

  That's the trick. 
We requested it in our build. Not sure how much extra it added given the sliding door kit is quite cheap but its more labour to put it together...

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## Moondog55

Just picked up 10 S/H plywood sheets for $100-
A mix of 10mm and 12mm; all trimmed to 2300 but most 1200mm wide still, this is enough to clad the short walls holding up the storage floor with a couple left over

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## Moondog55

Used a few of the S/H sheets as flooring, as per your advice SbD I staggered the sheets, so a 1200mm overlap. Two layers of 10mm ply is very stiff indeed and I can't  tell the difference between the 17mm and the doubled 10mm as far as bounce/flex goes; there simply isn't any

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## SilentButDeadly

> Used a few of the S/H sheets as flooring, as per your advice SbD I staggered the sheets, so a 1200mm overlap. Two layers of 10mm ply is very stiff indeed and I can't  tell the difference between the 17mm and the doubled 10mm as far as bounce/flex goes; there simply isn't any

  Excellent!

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## Moondog55

As the floor is now above 2300mm from the hard concrete I'll need to fit a short wall or balustrade for personal safety reasons. Are there any technical reasons why I shouldn't screw the short studs directly to the last joist and the end beam/structural fascia?

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## Moondog55

So I now have an Oscar Wilde balustrade on the go.
Way overkill but I thought better to use them up than send to landfill.
All these short bits of 240*45 and 290*45 are being utilised

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## Bloss

> So I now have an Oscar Wilde balustrade on the go.
> Way overkill but I thought better to use them up than send to landfill.
> All these short bits of 240*45 and 290*45 are being utilised

   :2thumbsup:

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## Moondog55

You don't often find full size pallets [ 2440 * 1220] made from MGP 10 timber but shopping at Bunnings for plywood that is what I just found, so 5 off extra strong droppers and the rails now taken care of for free [ well free if I discount the labour needed to pull them apart] and I'll get it finished in the next few days when Grandkids go back to their mother.

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## Moondog55

So I am at the stage of putting in the first workbench and I am trying to decide on its depth.
With chipboard flooring available in an 800mm width now I am wondering if that is too deep for a working surface. My current top is 680mm and is OK but I was going to buy 900mm and cut it down to 720mm, I don't think the extra 80mm would make any functional difference and it means I don't have to get Bunnings to cut Yellowtongue.
Really I am thinking out loud here and using you blokes as a sounding board. https://www.bunnings.com.au/structaf...board_p0148884
Serious query now, I was thinking I would need a sacrificial layer over the yellowtongue, would the 4mm hardwood ply be a reasonable thing to use with a decent paint.?> https://www.bunnings.com.au/dulux-30...paint_p1400819

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## Bros

Can you reach 800mm? If so and it doesn’t intrude excessively into the floor space it would be ok.

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## Bros

Just looking at that link and I wouldn’t build anything out of that rubbish, use wood for the top as you can spill thinners or paint and it only causes a stain. 
What about getting pallet timber for a top as you can get them for nothing just a bit of work pulling them apart. You can than rough sand the top.

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## Moondog55

I was thinking speed, I'd like to get this side finished as soon as possible and try and get somewhat organised.
Pallet timber is a good idea but I haven't yet seen any hardwood pallets in the toss out sections, all cheap Chinese larch stuff which is awful to work with and doesn't even burn well.
I suppose if I used the chipboard flooring I could top it with some galvanised steel sheet, I have some here I could have trimmed and folded for a reasonable cost and it would be heat and scratch resistant

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## Bros

> Pallet timber is a good idea but I haven't yet seen any hardwood pallets in the toss out sections, all cheap Chinese larch stuff which is awful to work with and doesn't even burn well

   You won’t find hardwood. I’ve used the pine quite a bit and I find it ok but you have to be a bit selective.

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## Moondog55

I've found that the structural flooring is more wear resistant then the freebie pallets around here, most of them are absolute rubbish. I am intending to use hardwood for the other bench using up all the short lengths etc.
The old standby of Formply was also though about  https://www.bunnings.com.au/specrite...ywood_p0340319
It's for next payday anyway so I have a week to think about it.

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## Bros

Just measured my bench and it is 900deep. I made it on a metal frame with the top being 10mm ply.

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## Moondog55

Anywhere between 720 and 800 should work out then.
I'd have liked to use the hardwood ply but the floor above was the priority. No posts on this bench; I'm using the big angle brackets I salvaged from the old shed to make it clear under the full width so I can move the cupboards on wheels under it at need, we seem to have a surfeit of under bench filing cabinets for some reason all over 700 deep

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## MorganGT

> Anywhere between 720 and 800 should work out then.

  I wouldn't want shallower than 720, but 720 to 80 should be a good working depth.
My bench is 900 deep using 2 layers of Yellowtongue as a top, although I do plan on fitting 50x50mm aluminium angle along the front edge and fitting a sacrificial layer of thin laminate, unless I can find somewhere to supply/fold either a stainless or galvanised top. 900 is almost too deep to reach the back easily, but allowed for storing engines on trolleys under the bench without anything sticking out.

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## SilentButDeadly

For the benches along the wall I just ripped a 19mm sheeting of flooring plywood in half. 
The actual work benches are topped with either LVL on its side covered with a sacrificial layer of 6mm Masonite or a standard melamine office bench....

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## Moondog55

Framing up this bench raised some dollar questions and there are at the moment very few spare dollars. When I bought the S/H OSB last month the seller chucked in a length of fabricated joist to help support the thin sheets on the drive home, this 300*40mm fabricated joist just became a support and centre leg and only 90mm went into the rubbish bin. Another item saved from being land-fill.
I should have the bench top here by Saturday tho so some progress is being made, then some high shelves in the secure area to put some of the spare music stuff and I should be able to start thinking about a shed warming party when the weather cools enough to justify a fire and BBQ

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