# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  VCAT planning dispute

## brettule

I'm in the council planning permit stage for my renovation/extension which has a high likelyhood of being approved according to the town planner who revised and worked with me during the process lead up to application. A neighbour has flatly said he will oppose any approval and escalate it to VCAT in an effort to stop my planned works. I'd like to prepare myself for the road ahead, does anyone know of a good lawyer who specilaises in VCAT planning disputes who I can chat with over fee's etc for representation? 
Cheers

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## Jim Carroll

What are you doing that the neighbour opposes.
Is there any room for comprimise. 
Only one person wins in this and that is the lawyers. 
You still have to live next to an angry neighbour.

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## Sir Stinkalot

If you have councils planning department on side they will issue you a permit. If your neighbour wants to object they will be taking council to VCAT, not you directly. Council will hopefully fighting your case for you at VCAT. You could attend and speak about your application yourself as Council will provide the experience in presenting your case. 
If Council are going to be issuing the permit it sounds like your application is within policy guidelines, which would generally be supported by VCAT. If your neighbors concerns are trivial they may not bother to lodge at VCAT when they become aware of the costs.

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## Sir Stinkalot

I should have added that if you want professional support at VCAT you may be better with a private town planner than a lawyer, particularly if it is a simple application (which it sounds like it is). It should bring your costs down considerably.

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## president_ltd

Is there anything in your renovation/extension which is against ResCode or against any heritage overlay in your area?
Reality is that if everything you are doing is within ResCode then there are simply no grounds for your neighbour to take it up with VCAT. 
What are you doing that they are objecting to?

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## brettule

The neighbours objections are numerous, council provide copies of the objections which seems like an odd thing to do. Most are clutching at straws using any key buzz words to attract town planner attention and are not noteworthy. The only real gripe is overshadowing, it's not a lot, it's only in the morning and it's only onto the roof of his pergola which is clad in transparent sheeting, laserlight I think they call it. Unfortunately I've comprimised as far as it goes, any further and the build becomes pointless to us. Living next to an angry neighbour is fine with me, there is no commuication or acknowledgement of our existance as it stands so I'm fine with it to continue as such.

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## president_ltd

So are you within planning guidelines on your overshadow of your neighbour? You don't say. 
To be clear, these are what ResCode says. You are either in compliance with it, or you are not. There is no gray.
Are you?  *Over-Shadowing Adjoining Properties* 
  A  new dwelling or addition must not overshadowing  an adjoining dwellings private open space areas more than the lesser of  75% of its area and 40 Square metres  of 3 metres  minimum width. 
I've also seen references to "a minimum of 5 hours sunlight between 9am and 3pm on 22 September"
As well as "if existing sunlight to the secluded private open space of an existing dwelling is less than the requirements of this standard, theamount of sunlight should not be further reduced."

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## brettule

I don't directly shadow any of his "private open space", as I said the shadow is cast onto the roof of a pergola/verandah. Obviously this casts a shadow beneath his laserlight but this isn't direct sunlight so my architect tells me. How does res code take this into account?

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## woodchip

I dont know what relevence this may be to the situation in Vic', in NSW objections from neighbours mean that some compromise on your design is required, & usually a DAP meeting with council & an independant chairperson, objectors can come along if they wish but its not required, here council will try to resolve the issues so a consent can be given.
If you can show the numerous compromises you have already made, and that you comply with all other state development & local development policies ie setbacks from boundarys, heights, etc, & then if you can make your point without insulting the council or independent chairperson (or anyone!), then 'commonsense' should prevail & consent given. 
cheers

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## president_ltd

> I don't directly shadow any of his "private open space", as I said the shadow is cast onto the roof of a pergola/verandah. Obviously this casts a shadow beneath his laserlight but this isn't direct sunlight so my architect tells me. How does res code take this into account?

  i think you need to talk to your architect about what ResCode says about a pergola/verandah area and if it has a transparent/translucent cover like laserlight if that is still considered "private open space."    

> I dont know what relevence this may be to the situation in Vic', in NSW objections from neighbours mean that some compromise on your design is required, & usually a DAP meeting with council & an independant chairperson, objectors can come along if they wish but its not required, here council will try to resolve the issues so a consent can be given.
> If you can show the numerous compromises you have already made, and that you comply with all other state development & local development policies ie setbacks from boundarys, heights, etc, & then if you can make your point without insulting the council or independent chairperson (or anyone!), then 'commonsense' should prevail & consent given.

  the ResCode system in Vic is way fairer than this in that the rules are consistent from council to council & the rules are very exact.
the reality is that if you've followed ResCode then there simply aren't any grounds for a neighbour to object.

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## brettule

The architect says that it's not direct sunlight so it shouldnt count but its a grey area.

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## johnc

Just trying to look at this from a different angle, if the structure is overshadowing laserlight then it will reduce light that flows to the area below. How much does it effect that lower area and for how long, if I was going to be talking to the permit issuer I would want to be armed with that detail to ensure any argument brought in was at least factual. FWIW if it was my patio and this was substantial overshadowing I would be very unimpressed with that concern being dismissed as, "it only overshadows the laserlight so it doesn't count". Properly addressing a concern does minimise it, on the other hand if it a very disagreeable neighbour you may not care or that could be the view they have formed of their own neighbour. Lets face it overshadowing the laserlight does overshadow his patio, and you do need to consider that not abitarily dismiss it as being of no consequence.

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## r3nov8or

> The architect says that it's not direct sunlight so it shouldnt count but its a grey area.

   Sure sounds like a grey area to me too. Say the laserlight is clear, then the owner surely wanted all available natural light but protection from the rain. If it is has a tint one might argue that the owner wanted less than total available light (but how much less?). Interesting. Please let us know how things go.

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## brettule

My property is the green boardered site, neighbour is red. The top of the image is north. Each property is approx 10 x 29 meters. You can clearly make out the original roof of both properties (the silver corri iron) whi le the rest are tacked
on additions over the past 20 years. The blue box represents the approx size of a studio I wish to erect with a pitched roof on top of the single story. Res code states not more than 80% of the area can be covered by impermeable surfaces,
I'd say the neighbour is over this, I don't think that helps me though. The shadow I would cast is into the pergola thing he's constructed which is that lat t iced white and clear roof and recntly with the black shade cloth over a good portion of
it. Obviously it cuts out some light but by lOam the shadow is pretty much gone. In addition to this the neighbour takes great pains to reduce his open space and permeable area. Pretty much anything I do in the rear of my property will
effect light to the reduced space left.

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## president_ltd

based on your picture & assuming North points upwards, i doubt that the 'shadow' would even happen.... 
note the date and hours/time i posted above. 
i'd expect your architect or whomever you're using to submit the permit to know this stuff......

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## woodchip

Looks like about 3m set-back from side boundary, surely thats enough!,
I suggest you get your drafsperson/architect to print out the shadows cast by the proposed building(CAD does it), if you have any further troubles.
My draftie did this, but we decided not to include that info with our recent DA. 
cheers

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## r3nov8or

seeing the pic i reckon you'll be fine.

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## brettule

Council requested the studio be shrunk until its basically that size now. A ladder services it rather than a proper staircase which is a pain but thats all part of my comprimising.

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## johnc

Looking at that I can't see why they are complaining, if north is to the top then any shadow cast will be long (low sun) and brief.

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## Sir Stinkalot

Would you consider posting the three shadow diagrams (Sept 22nd 9am, 12pm and 3pm) that your architect should have produced during your application. If it is an issue your architect should also prepare the same shadow diagrams prior to your extension to determine if there is any loss of amenity for your neighbour. 
If you want to go to VCAT  prepared  you should be doing this, plus additional hours just to see how much sun the neighbour actually gets.

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## brettule

Here is the south section of the plan, original shadow at 9am on the 22nd of Sept and then two proposed shadows at 9am and 10am. You don't need to bother about the neighbour on my East side, they have no objections to my build.

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## president_ltd

so based on that shadow diagram, assuming its accurate, what objections do you believe your neighbour would have that violates ResCode?

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## r3nov8or

I reckon it all comes down to whether the transparent-sheeted-verandah at the neighbour's is deemed direct sunlight by the decision makers.

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## manofaus

is his little pergola even approved? its close to the boundry.

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## brettule

Fair point. When he was building it he accused me of "dobbing him in" to the council, it actually wasn't me but someone must have alerted the council to the fact he was building this without a permit. It stayed up so either the council had no issues with it's construction which seems hard to believe, or somehow he pulled the wool over their eyes. My boundry ends around a foot further into his property, I wouldn't be surprised if the footings for the pergola cross the boundry. 
I'm not too concerned that it's erected, I think it helps my case. He's poured tonnes of concrete into his back yard then erected the pergola over it all. My proposal is casting shadow onto that pergola, if it wasn't there I certainly wouldn't be permitted to be build.

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## brettule

Council have provisionally approved my permit. They give the neighbours who objected 21 days notification which gives them the opportunity to take the matter to VCAT if they wish to dispute the desicion.

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