# Forum Home Renovation Solar Electrical Systems  Smart Meters - What are the issues?

## Geoff2005

I recall seeing a clip on the box recently about the possible ill effects of Smart Meters, akin I guess to mobile phones. The issue I believe stems from the Smart Meter emmiting RF to communicate to the network operator. Do these meters have an external antenna or do they just punch the RF out through the steel meter box? Like a lot of dwellings my meter box is on a wall of Bedroom 1. 
Any comments?

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## johnc

> I recall seeing a clip on the box recently about the possible ill effects of Smart Meters, akin I guess to mobile phones. The issue I believe stems from the Smart Meter emmiting RF to communicate to the network operator. Do these meters have an external antenna or do they just punch the RF out through the steel meter box? Like a lot of dwellings my meter box is on a wall of Bedroom 1. 
> Any comments?

  
I think this has been done to death on a number of forums, I think these can be summed up as, 
(a) The raving nutcases that think they will be microwaved by these things are just that, raving nutcases and best ignored.
(b) They do emit some low level stuff it has been tested and deemed to be below the point you have anything to worry about.
(c) There are plenty of things around the house that wil emit more radiation than the smart meter on your wall.
(d) You could make a faraday cage sit in it and meditate or sleep in safety.
(e) You will not be able to boil water or cook an egg on your meter because the emissions are to low. 
I actually think it is unlikely you have much to worry about but if you think it is a problem you should also consider modems, mobile phones, the microwave and other electrical items.

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## Random Username

The larger health risk is our nearby unlicensed fusion reactor (which happens to be using gravitational confinement, a confinement method that has well documented problems once the fuel cycle gets low).   
It is already known to be the causative agent for some types of cancer, but essentially it got grandfathered in without approval, safety checks or proper waste disposal options, and mark my words, it'll be hell here when it finally reaches it's effective end-of-life.

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## TermiMonster

Where is there a working fusion reactor in Australia (or anywhere else, for that matter)?
I thought it was still theoretical.  Or am I just behind the times?(I haven't got an iphone, either :No: )
TM

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## Bloss

> Where is there a working fusion reactor in Australia (or anywhere else, for that matter)?
> I thought it was still theoretical.  Or am I just behind the times?(I haven't got an iphone, either)
> TM

  I think he means the sun . . .  :Biggrin:   :Wink:  
As to dangers of smart meters - simple: make up a protective hat from aluminium foil - instructions here: Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie

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## Random Username

> Where is there a working fusion reactor in Australia (or anywhere else, for that matter)?
> I thought it was still theoretical.  Or am I just behind the times?(I haven't got an iphone, either)
> TM

  Step outside during daytime, look up in sky.  It's pretty big, you'll spot it.  Current energy output is about 386 billion billion megawatts so it's pretty bright, too.

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## TermiMonster

I'm a bit slow on the uptake..... nothing new about that. :Doh:

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## Uncle Bob

> I thought it was still theoretical.

  They exist, but not in Australia to my knowledge (excluding the Sun  :Smilie:  ).  
Researchers and scientists have been working on this (hot fusion) for over 60 years and still haven't managed to create more energy than was used in the process. Also it seems the plasma created, only sustains for very short periods (under a second). 
Cold fusion appears to be gaining traction with successful, repeatable experiments being conducted by numerous people, organisations and even an Italian school has shown results.
NASA is now taking notice and feels it may have a place in the future powering aircraft and space craft. 
Most of the negativity regarding Cold Fusion is because it can't be properly explained using current physics so it can't exist (Flat Earth thinkers).
For those about to poo poo this, please google LENR (low-energy nuclear reactions). Also here's a good starting point Update: Cold Fusion Progress in 2012 
Meters could eventually be a thing of the past if each premise has their own Nickel/Hydrogen energy source. 
Personally, I can't wait to heat my pool year round at < $0.02kWh  :Smilie:  
OK, now back to our regular programming.

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## TermiMonster

Interestingly, I did a bit of googling, and found an Aussie coy that claims to be making progress in cold fusion. Star Scientific is their name.  But I'm not holding my breath.
cheers,
TM

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## Johning

> They exist, but not in Australia to my knowledge (excluding the Sun  ).

  Should that not be "including the Sun".  :Wink:

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## barney118

I would be more worried of the govt/elec companies changing prices per minute etc as they please to increase revenue at our expense. They soften the approach at discount rates until we are all sucked in then up the prices as they wish.
They won't let me have an off peak meter to run my pool, they are not about distributing load etc it's just a money grab.  
Sent from my iPhone 4s using Tapatalk

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## Geoff2005

> I think he means the sun . . .   
> As to dangers of smart meters - simple: make up a protective hat from aluminium foil - instructions here: Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie

  LOL
That would surely have more supporters if it were a stylish cone shape.  
So RF is really a non issue, (except the comms device is probably wired to the consumer side of the meter and energy for it is added to the bill  :Rolleyes: )

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## seriph1

Barney is on the money ... the power companies are too   -   smart meters enable termination of staff and arbitrary adjustment of pricing.  
If there has ever been a time in history where government run infrastructure has been done _better AND cheaper_ to the consumer, by private enterprise I am yet to see it   -   new meters = installation and product cost recovery, as stated in their literature .... it's at the end of the second page of gobbledegook alongside the intimation of increased revenues

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## Bloss

[QUOTE=Geoff2005;896085
  So RF is really a non issue, (except the comms device is probably wired to the consumer side of the meter and energy for it is added to the bill  :Rolleyes: )[/QUOTE] 
This is mostly WiFi based and would be wired on the supply side - power use is trivial.

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## SilentButDeadly

I've got one of these new fangled Smart Meters.  One thing it can not do is broadcast either via radio, WiFi, 3G or any other non-contact method.   
However, as with many historical power meters spread across the countryside....it can be enabled to be communicated with 'down the wire'. Same principal as with off peak triggering. Basically the power company pings the meter, they do a little handshake, exchange a few bits of data and jobs done. If it is enabled... 
Naturally, given the highly developed technical skills of Victorian power companies, ours is still read by a bloke with a recording machine.  And it takes the machine nearly a minute and a half to negotiate this exchange.  Previously, with the spinning wheel meter, took only a few seconds to record the number - Old Mate spent longer opening and closing the power box! 
Progress, eh?

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## chrisp

> I've got one of these new fangled Smart Meters.  One thing it can not do is broadcast either via radio, WiFi, 3G or any other non-contact method.

  I'm not sure exactly where you are located, but I suspect that most smart meters DO broadcast.  It is part of the features of the meters - they can eliminate the need for on-site meter readers. 
On the general topic  of the of emissions levels,  The report on the EM field survey can be found here Smart Meters - AMI Meter EM Field Survey Report

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## SilentButDeadly

> I'm not sure exactly where you are located, but I suspect that most smart meters DO broadcast.  It is part of the features of the meters - they can eliminate the need for on-site meter readers.

  They might...but they don't have to.  'Down the wire' comms has been possible for decades...but it still hasn't seen the end of the meter reader.  Regardless, mine is the new generic Victorian smart meter and it has all the data broadcasting capacity of a tin on a string.  Perhaps it is the de-specced 'rural & regional' version... :Wink 1:

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## Bloss

> They might...but they don't have to.  'Down the wire' comms has been possible for decades...but it still hasn't seen the end of the meter reader.  Regardless, mine is the new generic Victorian smart meter and it has all the data broadcasting capacity of a tin on a string.  Perhaps it is the de-specced 'rural & regional' version...

   :What he said:  down the wire is how most will work. The fear mongering on this has come mostly from California where WiFI has been used and the wingnuts have been set running. 
Some will use WiFi and substations and other bits will have WiFi and down the wire capacity. For network management not really for consumers so much - more about the change to generator anytime anywhere grid which will happen over the next ten years. It's about increasing local generation, and managing demand side as well as supply side issues to keep security of supply at high levels using intelligence rather than simply building huge wasteful additional capacity in the whole system.

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## chrisp

> They might...but they don't have to.  'Down the wire' comms has been possible for decades...but it still hasn't seen the end of the meter reader.

   

> down the wire is how most will work.

  I disagree.  :Smilie:  
The main communications methods are *mesh-radio network* (which hops from meter to meter to the base) and *WiMax* (aka WiFi on steroids) - both are radio transmission via air - not power lines.  The meters can also be read on-site  manually or using an optical interface.   
You'll find that the system will be progressively automated as it is rolled out.  Web portals are already available to some Victorian customers so they can access their meter readings online (see Half-hourly checks to monitor smart meters ). 
Yes, it is possible to transmit _some_ data over power wires but not '*up*' the wire at the data transmission levels required to individually meter even single property.  'Down' the wire is more realistic but was typically used to control time-of-day tariffs such as off-peak hot water (where the *same* signal is sent 'down' to many premises).

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## Daniel Morgan

> Do these meters have an external antenna or do they just punch the RF out through the steel meter box? 
> Any comments?

  Hello, 
Smart Meters are smart, but who for? 
If the meter box is timber the antenna is just screwed to the inside, if it's a metal meter box, they bore a hole through the door and mount an antenna externally. 
They wouldn't do that if it was going down the wire.

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## Bloss

> I disagree.  
> The main communications methods are *mesh-radio network* (which hops from meter to meter to the base) and *WiMax* (aka WiFi on steroids) - both are radio transmission via air - not power lines.  The meters can also be read on-site  manually or using an optical interface.   
> You'll find that the system will be progressively automated as it is rolled out.  Web portals are already available to some Victorian customers so they can access their meter readings online (see Half-hourly checks to monitor smart meters ). 
> Yes, it is possible to transmit _some_ data over power wires but not '*up*' the wire at the data transmission levels required to individually meter even single property.  'Down' the wire is more realistic but was typically used to control time-of-day tariffs such as off-peak hot water (where the *same* signal is sent 'down' to many premises).

   :What he said:  Thanks for the 'correction' - what happens when we try to simplify and 'chat' very complex area.  :Redface:  WiMAx is still WiFi standard based and 'down' the wire on demand management is what I was referring to - not two way comms. Our local distributor uses Outpost Central mesh-radio control SW  - spectrum is tight in this area as it is in many RF applications.

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## TermiMonster

> Hello, 
> Smart Meters are smart, but who for? 
> If the meter box is timber the antenna is just screwed to the inside, if it's a metal meter box, they bore a hole through the door and mount an antenna externally. 
> They wouldn't do that if it was going down the wire.

  My house was recently 'upgraded' to a smart metre.  It's in a metal box, no antenna externally, or, from what I can see, internally (unless it is built in to the unit).......
TM

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## SilentButDeadly

> I disagree.  
> The main communications methods are *mesh-radio network* (which hops from meter to meter to the base) and *WiMax* (aka WiFi on steroids) - both are radio transmission via air - not power lines.  The meters can also be read on-site  manually or using an optical interface.   
> You'll find that the system will be progressively automated as it is rolled out.  Web portals are already available to some Victorian customers so they can access their meter readings online (see Half-hourly checks to monitor smart meters ). 
> Yes, it is possible to transmit _some_ data over power wires but not '*up*' the wire at the data transmission levels required to individually meter even single property.  'Down' the wire is more realistic but was typically used to control time-of-day tariffs such as off-peak hot water (where the *same* signal is sent 'down' to many premises).

  True...but since neither a mesh-radio network nor WiMax will work outside town limits...what other option is there but 'down the wire'? 
My new meter might be smart but it is still a 'poor communicator' - and we all know where that can get us!!!

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## chrisp

> True...but since neither a mesh-radio network nor WiMax will work outside town limits...what other option is there but 'down the wire'?

  I'm not sure what is proposed of the rural/remote areas as far as meter reading is concerned.  I'd be interested to hear if anyone has some info. 
Regarding 'other options', I can think of a few: a human meter reader with an optical interface; a GSM interface in the meter (for areas that have mobile coverage); or even a mobile transceiver - drive-by wireless meter-reading van!; or hop on the internet via an access point. 
I don't think 'down the wire' will be used as it'd be very difficult to transmit data 'up' the power line.  It'd not be a low-power transmitter, nor will it be trivial trying to co-ordinate all those remote messages coming 'up' the line.  see Power line communication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
My suspicion is that human meter readers will continue to be used in rural/remote areas and, sometime later, they'll switch over to internet (after the NBN is in place).  Why wait for, and develop, power line communications technology (and replace the meters yet again) when a perfectly good and suitable communications technology is already available - the internet!

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## BaysideNana

Not sure how it's done in other areas but where I live the meter reader still comes around to read Smart Meters.  I was talking to him last time and he was saying it's so much quicker for the blokes to read because they just point their handheld device at the optical interface.  There is also a wired interface which didn't look familar at all, ie not USB etc.   Then when they get back to base they need to download from the device to the computer system.   
I thought it might have been a WiFi setup too...maybe it is is some areas...he went on to say that when every house has a SM (not just new houses as it is now) then it will be a WiFi upload.   
That's all I know about it other than I'm not too impressed with the time-of-day-charging because the heatpump HWS turns on during the morning, usually 9am or thereabouts, the most expensive time for power.  During midWinter it was heating at 1-2am on the coldest of nights there is no rhyme or reason to it...give me an offpeak HWS any day they were much cheaper to run.  Sold the house a few days ago so might consider solar for the next house, but that decision is for another day and I might ask further questions then.     :Smilie:

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