# Forum Home Renovation Stairs, Steps and Ramps  Gate for poorly designed stairs

## Mixxy

Hi all, 
My partner and I recently purchased our first house, a Queenslander which has been built in underneath. Happily it ticked most of the boxes, but I have a problem with some poorly designed internal stairs in the kitchen. The problem is they aren't safe at present as they are right near the kitchen sink. They also need to be made kid safe as we're expecting our first child in December.  
Some pictures will explain the problem better than I will:   
As you can see the hand rail is attached to the bottom of the kitchen bench (what the?), and the stairs themselves are in a high traffic area near the sink. Also in the last pic you can see there really isn't anything to attach a gate to at present, as there's no pole on the other side and the kitchen cabinet doesn't extend out far enough.  
What I would like to do is have a gate installed at the top of the stairs so people can't fall down, and also get some advice on making the side child proof. I'd prefer to get it done properly, so I'll be getting a professional to do it. 
So, how would you fix this?
Who would you get to do it (builder, carpenter etc, I've got no idea)?
What sort of money am I looking at? 
Thanks in advance, I could really use some advice!

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## Uncle Bob

That's bit of a daggy setup for sure. Has anyone copped that bench corner to the head? I'd say that wouldn't conform to the standards.  
I think the easiest option would be to shorten the sink bench, otherwise re-routing the stairs may be an option, though that wouldn't come cheap. 
As for your question regarding the gate, I'd probably just get it hung off the bench carcass, with a latch on the side with a pole. A chippy will be able to do this, and might have some good advice regarding the poor location of these stairs.

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## Mixxy

Thanks for the reply mate.  
Only a ~5 year old would be in danger of hitting their head I think (thankfully, it's already bad enough as it is).  
So on the gate, does it matter that the kitchen bench carcass is about 20cm out of alignment with the post? That is you need to extend the kitchen cupboard out before you could attach a gate.  
Cheers.

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## Uncle Bob

> So on the gate, does it matter that the kitchen bench carcass is about 20cm out of alignment with the post? That is you need to extend the kitchen cupboard out before you could attach a gate.  
> Cheers.

  I think it would be ok to have it on an angle.

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## Mixxy

Thanks mate, I appreciate the advice.

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## cyclic

(1) Get rid of the stainless cabling and replace with either 15x15 steel bars at 90mm centres vertical in a frame, or timber balustrade. 
(2) Install a new post under or against the end of the bench top. 
(3) Swing a gate off the existing blue post so it swings back into the kitchen and latches against the new post. The gate will be on an angle to the top tread. 
Do not swing the gate out over the stairs because if the latch should come undone with the weight of a child against it, the child could tumble down the stairs.

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## Mixxy

Thanks cyclic, much appreciated. Also that's a good point about not swinging the gate over the stairs, I'd been wondering about that. It's a shame it'll take up space in the kitchen, but I guess that'll be good motivation to keep it closed.

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## JB1

I can't help any further as cyclic has given good advice, but wow I wonder who thought it was a good idea to install the bench there.  
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## David.Elliott

It was a second hand kitchen and that was the "best" layout from what they had...still makes me scratch my head but...

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## Mixxy

Based on the building inspection I think the stairs were added after the bench when they built in underneath the house. The stairs were originally outside (where the large door shaped window behind the stairs is) but they wanted internal access I guess.

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## Marc

I wonder if the gate is done by now.
I agree with cyclic, however if it is me I would replace the sink cabinet for a much shorter one with a single sink. Double sink is passee in my view, get a single sink extra deep with an extra high tap. 
Yes the gate must swing in the kitchen and not over the stairs. 
You could make them in a way that they swing around the blue post all the way against the balustrade and so out of the way.
Yes, get rid of the marine cables, they are a climbing hazard. 
There are a lot of highly overpriced kid safety gates for stairs and the like on offer. Some are good some are crap all are not cheap. You can make your own gate with no much money if you can find the right hardware for it, particularly the latch. A latch for pool fence gate may be OK.  
Rerouting the stairs? Gee, it would be cheaper to install a lift. 
Post a photo when you are done.

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## Mixxy

Well I finally have a gate (self closing and locking plus child-proof) on the stairs:   
The father in law (general handyman sort of guy) and I spent an afternoon coming up with a design, sawing some wood and getting it installed. The crimes against the kitchen bench continue as we screwed a pole to the bottom of the bench and into the tiles below. Off that we swung the gate into the kitchen, and against the blue (now grey) pole, so that it is impossible for the gate to open onto the stairs (we were able to have the gate square with the bench, not at some slight angle). We considered a few ideas for a latch, but in the end I wanted something that was impossible for the little one to open, so we went with a pool gate latch. The latch was designed for a gate that swings past the post, not onto it, so we had to put in an extra bit of wood on the back of the gate to mount the latch. Once the kid(s) are old enough I can just take the latch off as well as the piece of wood the latch is mounted to so it looks tidy. The latch came with self-closing hinges, and after a bit of fiddling we have it setup so that no matter how little the gate has been opened, it will automatically self close and lock itself. A lick of paint for the gate and the poles and it was done, and altogether probably took 6 hours or so. 
Overall it came out pretty good I think. In hindsight I would have preferred to use dowels to attach the verticals/balustrades in the gate to the top (rather than screws) for a cleaner finish, I probably should have sanded the wood a bit more before painting, and I would have preferred something other then the visible bracket for mounting the post, but they aren't big issues. It looks and works a lot better than those expanding child gates at least, and didn't cost too much more. 
On the other side (with the marine cables) I plan to get a piece of perspex/polycarbonate cut to size and screw it onto the wooden frame so that it can't be climbed. That way I can just take it down once the kids are old enough and I don't have to stuff around putting in vertical balustrades. Does that sound reasonable? 
Anyway thanks for all the ideas and help, as you can see a lot of the suggestions were incorporated into the final design.

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## paddyjoy

Looks great good job! I agree much better than having an expandable child gate.

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## Marc

Good job simple and effective. Good idea about the perspex too!

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## stopthief

It matches the aura .... nice one .....  :2thumbsup:

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## METRIX

Looks good, I would also screw a piece of perspex onto the gate to act as a brace to stop it sagging, the design is nice but will drop at the latch side soon and then won't lock which will be dangerous for the little ones, screw it all around the perimiter not just the corners.. 
This style gate is ok when made from metal such as the store bought ones as the welds will hold it solid, but timber will drop from the weight and when you get litle ones standing or swinging on it, it will drop fast.

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## Mixxy

> Looks good, I would also screw a piece of perspex onto the gate to act as a brace to stop it sagging, the design is nice but will drop at the latch side soon and then won't lock which will be dangerous for the little ones, screw it all around the perimiter not just the corners.. 
> This style gate is ok when made from metal such as the store bought ones as the welds will hold it solid, but timber will drop from the weight and when you get litle ones standing or swinging on it, it will drop fast.

  Thanks for the comment mate, I appreciate it. In fact this was already on my mind after a relatives nine year old stood on the gate and took it for a ride recently (no damage/dropping evident).  
The gate feels relatively strong (it drops about 1mm with a 5kg weight on the latch end), but over time and with people standing on it I suppose it will drop a bit (although the latch can be adjusted up and down by removing a single screw).  
Do you think some metal braces would work as an alternative to putting perspex/polycarbonate on the gate? Something like these on the corners: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...6L._SX300_.jpg 
or these in each corner: http://static.parastorage.com/media/...34d98b.jpg_256

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## METRIX

The corner brackets may help, but it really needs a diagonal brace which goes from the latch all the way to the bottom hinge side, problem is a brace will create a climbing structure, so perspex is the easier way out of it, and best to put it on the kitchen side then kids cant get their feet on it to swing, unless they open it of course.

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## Mixxy

You're probably right. In any case it's not worth taking the risk, so I suppose I'll have to put perspex/polycarbonate up to prevent little feet from standing on the gate. 
Thanks for the advice mate, it's appreciated.

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## METRIX

The cable system is not up to scratch, for it to be legal , you require maximum 80mm between wires to stop kids getting through, which usually works out to 11 wire runs from top to bottom.

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## barney118

At the top you need a landing of 750mm no bench.  
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## phild01

> At the top you need a landing of 750mm no bench.  
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  How clear is that defined, as it could be argued despite the bench, the access does have 750mm.

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## barney118

> How clear is that defined, as it could be argued despite the bench, the access does have 750mm.

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## phild01

Sorry, I know the reg, but I don't see it as being clear.  The gate is an entry point like a door, and I think that gate defines the area the 750mm clear space the reg would relate to.

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## Mixxy

Easy enough to add some more marine cables, not so easy to add a 750mm landing. When you say it isn't legal, what are the implications of that? I'd be liable if someone fell down the stairs? Insurance wouldn't cover it?

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## barney118

I'm scratching my head on this one, there is no minimum width of a stair shoulder width is at least recommended so technically there is a landing. But poor design. I know it's a lot of effort can't you relocate the bench?  
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## METRIX

*AS 1657 – 4.1 WIDTH AND ANGLE OF SLOPE*  Stairways shall be not less than 600 mm wide measured between the inside edges of the handrails.

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## r3nov8or

Is this gate officially a door?

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## barney118

> *AS 1657  4.1 WIDTH AND ANGLE OF SLOPE*  Stairways shall be not less than 600 mm wide measured between the inside edges of the handrails.

  Metrix just looked up the std platform has to have a clear width of 600mm too.  
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## phild01

Is this a domestic rule or public space ruling, or both?

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## barney118

BCA ruling  
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## phild01

Reading the general requirements I see 600mm clear space between handrails but not seeing the doorway requirement.  Is there a rule that says you can't have an access doorway less than 600mm.  I know doors usually start at 620mm but many french doors can be less.

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## phild01

Just looking at a requirement here: http://www.colacotway.vic.gov.au/Fil...de_Extract.pdf 
it seems the gate (if a doorway) cannot be located in this position.  I would say the gate is not considered a doorway, just a barrier.  So the bench seems to be an obstruction yet if a nib wall was placed floor to ceiling in-line with the bench, then what would we then be dealing with if that opening is 600mm wide!

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## barney118

Clear between handrails is 550mm, it classifies the landing or threshold must be clear 750mm long and 600 wide, so the bench is inside this area so it wouldn't pass inspection.  
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## phild01

> Clear between handrails is 550mm, it classifies the landing or threshold must be clear 750mm long and 600 wide, so the bench is inside this area so it wouldn't pass inspection.   
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  Is this (550mm and threshold 600mm wide) mentioned in 3.9, elsewhere or new addition?

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## barney118

You need to look at a couple of other issues wether the bench was an afterthought and the age of the building too. You could probably get away with it residential but you also need to look at it is it an obstruction in case of a fire etc and you were fleeing. The BCA is more concerned if it were a habitable room if it's not such as a hallway then as 1657 applies.  
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