# Forum Home Renovation Kitchens  Flatpack kitchens, are they really cheaper?

## autogenous

Do flatpack kitchens provide better value in regards to components, quality etc to having a cabinet maker making one for you and fitting it yourself ? 
It seems the bench top is the hardest part that is missed when purchasing flat pack cabinets.

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## arms

> Do flatpack kitchens provide better value in regards to components, quality etc to having a cabinet maker making one for you and fitting it yourself ? 
> It seems the bench top is the hardest part that is missed when purchasing flat pack cabinets.

  i am obviously going to get lambasted for answering this but i will give it a go anyway , 
this question is answered simply by ,saying that it depends on the work that 
1 goes into production of the flat pack (machinery,procedures,hardware)and 
2 the amount of work that the installer(you) is prepared to do 
that being said there are several different models of assembly for flatpacks ,ranging from screws,cams,dowels, all which have differing levels of qualifications need to assemble the flat packs.
some of the imported flat packs are interesting to assembleto say the least ,i have purchased several combinations of these to have a look for my self ,i have even bought some of the australian flat packs to try ,
ALL flat pack products have their limitations ,thats just the nature of flat packs ,some things simply cant be made flatpack and need to be made by hand cutting and fitting every piece ,
most manufacturers (myself includes) have invested large amounts of money in machinery and software to produce flat packs,this in itself is good for you as the customer but bad for our kids (in futures),
quality and components are reliant on the requirements of the customer ,most aussie manufacturers can alter these to suit ,the overseas products cant be changed (you will buy what we sell or you will not buy)
tops are a minefield if the manufacturer doesnt do them often and the freight sometimes can be a stumbling block ,but this is often outweighted by the cost of the local product being dearer (through markups)
We usually sell tops with our flat packs(custom made ),but then again we go to a great deal of effort to make sure that the kitchen is right in the first place and tops are a natural add on ,most if not all times the weight of tops is small when you compare them to the overall weight of a kitchen for transport.
so there you go  guys/gals ,fire away  :Bricks:

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## Sybarite

It depends on who you are buying them from. 
Straight off the shelf packs are not really comparable to the professional product. 
Limited sizes and colours and SOMETIMES substandard materials and fabricating (shortcuts) are the biggest cons in my opinion. 
But there are custom unassembled kitchen suppliers who provide exactly the same product as a cabinetmaker would install - often they are made in the same factory, the cabinetmaker just takes his boards back to his workshop, assembles them and installs your "fitted" kitchen. 
These cabinets are made to order exactly to your specifications with the option of top quality European hardware. 
The only difference in this type of product is that you have to assemble and install it yourself - and that is where some of the biggest saving is probably going to be; the more you do the less you pay someone else to do. 
Benchtops are NOT a problem either - if they are ordered from a benchtop fabricator, a service that is often included in the supply of a made to measure unassembled kitchen.
The tops will be made in the colour and profile of your choice to the dimensions you require including machine precise masons mitre joins and clamping points. 
You can also get stone, engineered stone or synthetic tops made to order once your kitchen is installed - exactly the same way a cabinetmaker would do it. 
There are quite a few businesses around who are providing quality made to order unassembled cabinetry made from Australian materials in Australia that when installed (properly) can be indistinguishable from the work of a competent cabinetmaker. 
Cheers, 
(Oh and snap...Tom is faster on the keyboard than me this morning...but for what it's worth I agree - hey, those bricks could make a great BBQ!)

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## arms

(Oh and snap...Tom is faster on the keyboard than me this morning...but for what it's worth I agree - hey, those bricks could make a great BBQ!)[/quote] 
actually earl i am planning this nice little 3 bedroom on a block of land i have ,now the hard part is for everyone to throw the same bricks  :Harhar:

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## dazzler

Well I am shedding a tear or two.  A balanced, reasonable and well written piece. The world truly is beautiful.   :Redface:   :Smilie:   :Wink:

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## dazzler

Hi auto, 
we used the flatpax brand from the green and red shop.  Saved thousands, very well manufactured product. As good as the one that came in our project home.  
I liked the convenience that I could get whatever I needed by ducking down the road. 
Here is link to mine; http://www.renovateforum.com/f176/ki...dy-reno-77590/ 
go for it.

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## SilentButDeadly

As a recent flatpack kitchen fitter......I'd have to say.....it depends. 
In our case, we had a kitchen space that we could easily and logically fill with the necessarily limited size range of cabinets that are available in flat packs.  
If you can't do this then you run the risk that your kitchen would look rather lame and possibly function quite badly.  So a cabinet maker is your best option in this situation. 
As for quality.......you can demand quality when you engage a cabinet maker. Limits are determined by what you are prepared to pay. 
In flat packs....you tend to get what you pay for......especially with respect to the cabinet materials.  Fittings.....less so. 
For the record, we bought an IKEA kitchen, all floor cabinets and all drawers.  *Pros:* Price of the drawer systems, all drawers are soft close Blum Tandembox. *Cons:* cabinet frame quality is not quite as good as the Lamikits frames nor significantly cheaper *Recommendation:* If you want drawers in your kitchen...go IKEA but if you prefer standard cupboards....pay a little extra and go elsewhere

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## lbg

I've now installed 2 different Dahlsens flat pack kitchens - and both have been easy to put together and come up looking great. I haven't used a cabinet maker before, so can't compare quality - but the hinges, laminate, draw sliders, etc... were all good.  
We provide the measurements and work with the guy at Dahlsens to size/shape/spec what we want and where we want it - so the flat pack is customized. They also do an onsite measure prior to ordering (unlike Bunnings where you just have to buy pre-fab pieces).  
Only real point for improvement I can see is the instructions. First go most things were common sense, but there's a few minor details which I needed to clarify. Second go it was really easy and had all the carcasses together in under half a day.    

> most manufacturers (myself includes) have invested large amounts of money in machinery and software to produce flat packs,this in itself is good for you as the customer but bad for our kids (in futures),

  I guess you're referring to reduction in jobs & skills? I don't see it that way - it's just a shift in skill sets needed. Instead of cabinet makers, jobs will shift to those who can service the machinery and run the software/develop it/etc...

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## arms

> I guess you're referring to reduction in jobs & skills? I don't see it that way - it's just a shift in skill sets needed. Instead of cabinet makers, jobs will shift to those who can service the machinery and run the software/develop it/etc...

  thats right to a certain extent ,,but what happens when the machine breaks or the computer shuts down and no one can fix it till next week ,then  production stops so no money coming in ,the point i was making was kids need to be taken and trained into this industry when they turn 16 or finish grade 10 ,going to grade 12 is a nonsense for some kids that are really suited to work with their hands ,i remember reading a trade magazine a couple of years ago that said and i quote " if a child doesnt start an apprenticeship from year 10 then the industry has lost an apprentice to carry the trade forward" and i agree totally with that scenario,in this day a competent tech can run an entire computerised workshop and all we will have is kids feeding machines with no knowledge of why !

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## arms

> For the record, we bought an IKEA kitchen, all floor cabinets and all drawers. *Pros:* Price of the drawer systems, all drawers are soft close Blum Tandembox. *Cons:* cabinet frame quality is not quite as good as the Lamikits frames nor significantly cheaper *Recommendation:* If you want drawers in your kitchen...go IKEA but if you prefer standard cupboards....pay a little extra and go elsewhere

   i am a bit hesitant of the statement about blum runners ,i am going past ikea tomorrow and will make a concerted effort to stop in and inspect the runner system for myself ,i have read the specs of the imported kitchens which state "blum style runners" ,sounds the same but is wildly different in the real world

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## jags

Throught i would comment as have used Ikea a number of times and preached about how good they are before .But  after going in there yesterday to complaining  about the crappy quality of there applad capboards i was kindly told that the 10 year warranty is not for the draw fronts only components . How bloody convenient is that one year warranty on the stuff they make and 10 years on the stuff there source . 
Ikea is great for reno to sell but i do not think that i would use it again for my own home . i am now left with a kitchen that has a Essa stone bench top undermount sink european appliances and chipped draws and cupboard fronts  in a colour they no longer make . Not happy i should have lessoned  to you guys ...
rob

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## arms

> Throught i would comment as have used Ikea a number of times and preached about how good they are before .But after going in there yesterday to complaining about the crappy quality of there applad capboards i was kindly told that the 10 year warranty is not for the draw fronts only components . How bloody convenient is that one year warranty on the stuff they make and 10 years on the stuff there source . 
> Ikea is great for reno to sell but i do not think that i would use it again for my own home . i am now left with a kitchen that has a Essa stone bench top undermount sink european appliances and chipped draws and cupboard fronts in a colour they no longer make . Not happy i should have lessoned to you guys ...
> rob

  those applad (or however they spell and say it) doors and panels are made of mdf base(same as everyone) with an acrylic colour then a clear coat of polyurethane to give gloss levels ,the chinese doors and panels are made the same way ,so technically they are an acrylic colour with a poly sealing coat not a true polyurethane coloured door/panel ,that being said any damage can be repaired ,you will have to get the paint colour matched first ,

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## dazzler

> i am now left with a kitchen that has a Essa stone bench top undermount sink european appliances and chipped draws and cupboard fronts  in a colour they no longer make .

  How did they get chipped?

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## Hugo_Pantera

> i am a bit hesitant of the statement about blum runners ,i am going past ikea tomorrow and will make a concerted effort to stop in and inspect the runner system for myself ,i have read the specs of the imported kitchens which state "blum style runners" ,sounds the same but is wildly different in the real world

  Ikea do indeed use Blum System for some years. They use the 'grey' version which is not readily available from distributors in Australia (purchased by Ikea overseas). Saying this, the news was recently that Blum recently lost the contract with IKEA globally to another hardware manufacturer, so there might be a transition period where the Drawer Systems might be mixed according to kitchen style and date of packaging.

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## SilentButDeadly

All the drawers in our IKEA kitchen have turned out to be Blum Tandembox or Tandembox Plus.....the latter being the high capacity 50kg drawers.

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## carazy

I can confirm that the Ikea hinges are all Blum. I went there yesterday and checked all their displays. Every hinge had Blum on them. They merely rebrand them under the Ikea name Integral for hinges and Rationell for drawers. 
You can see Blum on their dampener here http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/81699_PE206725_S4.JPG  
I have only just started looking into my options for redoing my kitchen. There are so many things to consider but perhaps it's because I spend a ridiculous amount of time planning. One thing about the Ikea ktichens is that they use 18mm MDF which squeezes the internal cavity of the oven cabinet by 2mm. It may not seem like much but sometimes that 2mm is necessary. Also their 40cm/60cm/80cm sizing is a little odd. A lot of the appliances I'm looking at are 90cm. 
I want to tear down this house and rebuild in 5 years so overcapitalising in something temporary is not an option hence my looking at DIY systems. Plus I enjoy building things. 
I asked Bunnings about the hinges in their Flatpax system. I was told I wouldn't find much info about them which is true. They're a brand called DTC made in china, which does not automatically mean they're poor quality as I have no experience with them. They do not have a softclose option on either drawers or hinges (third party addon could be used though). 
I asked about the Ikea 25 year warranty and how they apply it to discontinued lines Eg If a door fails I don't want a different coloured door if they replace it. The staff member said they refund the amount you paid for all your doors and you replace them all with new ones paying the difference in costs. (this would be after they see the door and determine whether it failed from regular / abusive use)   :Yeahright:  
So much more research to do.

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## Ozcar

> . . . 
> I asked Bunnings about the hinges in their Flatpax system. I was told I wouldn't find much info about them which is true. They're a brand called DTC made in china, which does not automatically mean they're poor quality as I have no experience with them. They do not have a softclose option on either drawers or hinges (third party addon could be used though).

  I have a couple of the Flatpax cabinets, and the DTC hinges seem perfectly OK to me.  
I like the fact that they clip off but that seems to be pretty common now.

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## SilentButDeadly

> One thing about the Ikea ktichens is that they use 18mm MDF....

  IKEA kitchens are not made from MDF.......they are made of chipboard...in Slovenia...nice big chunky chips of Eastern European pine all mulched up and sandwiched between two thin coats of white melamine.

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## carazy

> IKEA kitchens are not made from MDF.......they are made of chipboard...in Slovenia...nice big chunky chips of Eastern European pine all mulched up and sandwiched between two thin coats of white melamine.

  
Entirely possible. I was only going off what the Ikea sales people told me. Seeing as I'm still getting my head around terminology and what different products options are I don't really make a point of calling people out unless I am sure of something. I am finding that I take most sales talk with a grain of salt, but it's a starting point on the learning curve. 
I also asked to verify that it was also moisture resistant. The response was yes, but the colour/pigment defining the moisture resistant board is different in Ikea products to other products in Aust because they make theirs to a higher standard as they have to satisfy a greater international community. I was a little dubious about this but simply added it to my notes.  
I walked away feeling the staff member was a little overzealous and a bit of an Ikea fangirl but at the same time I was asking because I needed information and that is what was provided. 
The blum hinges I saw for myself. The Ikea drawer runners definitely have a much smoother action than the drawers I saw in the display Flatpax at Bunnings. The Flatpax runners seemed to have a substantial yaw movement which was more than enough to put me off using them as an option. It may not have been installed properly but every one of their displays (even in different stores) had the same issue.

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## rrobor

I dont believe you can create a quality kitchen with Flatpax or any other thing if you lack the ability to do that. I built my one, the majority is flatpax, the benches are home made red gum and the cost was about a quarter of a designer kitchen. A few cabinets didnt conform so carcasses had to be constructed  and a sink and cooker installed. The cooker is gas and I got that installed by a pro, it stank of gas so yours truly fixed his mess.

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## Kanga

> I  One thing about the Ikea ktichens is that they use 18mm MDF which squeezes the internal cavity of the oven cabinet by 2mm.

  They use 18mm standard white coated Partical Board...*not* mdf and *not* moisure resistant.
The board products sit in a shipping container whilst at sea, sucking in salt air.

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## Kanga

> . 
> I also asked to verify that it was also moisture resistant. The response was yes, but the colour/pigment defining the moisture resistant board is different in Ikea products to other products in Aust because they make theirs to a higher standard as they have to satisfy a greater international community. I was a little dubious about this but simply added it to my notes.

  Thanks for reminding me. I remember hearing this before 
Yes she is partly right....the plastic coating (melamine) is moisture resistant, but the board is NOT.

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## fnqtech

I have installed flatpak kitchens from Bunnings and a custom flat pack kitchen; all in rental properties. I do not believe they are cheaper than scratch building, but you will get them installed a whole heap quicker than a scratch build.
Big disadvantage is that they are jig built. In other words they are fairly well perfectly square and plumb. Problem is that you house is unlikely to be anything like square and plumb. That said it is relatively easy to compensate for the mismatch.
The last Bunnings (Flatpax) kitchen I installed came with bench tops which poses more of a problem when your walls are not true. I got around the problem by using a fairly thick (15mm) splashback tile.

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## arms

The last Bunnings (Flatpax) kitchen I installed came with bench tops which poses more of a problem when your walls are not true. I got around the problem by using a fairly thick (15mm) splashback tile.[/quote] 
i cant talk for bunnings about the quality/construction of their products but most quality flat pack manufacturers (myself included) build their cabinets with the capacity to be modified to suit out of square corners ,some keep their cabinets 10mm off the wall, some have the gables protruding past the back by a distance ,the gap method is most common but i use the wing method ,when your room is out of square or your walls are not perpendicular you simply cut the wings off accordingly to suit , then you can cut the tops down to match ,very few older homes are square and perpendicular as they settle and move over time so a bit of work is always needed to fit a new kitchen to the home ,if you walk in thinking that it will be a breeze and you just have to throw a kitchen (flat packed or custom built) against the wall and everything will fall into line then perhaps you need to rethink your capabilities for the project.

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## andy the pm

This is really interesting. I'm about to spec a new kitchen for a reno we're about to start and its good to read all the feedback. I have looked at pretty much all the flat packs mentioned and without generalising they all apear to be pretty similar both in quality and cabinet type.
The one thing I have noticed (and happy to be corrected) is the limitation on door styles and colours unless you want white or antique white...
Erring towards smart pack at the moment, they have a great range of doors and colours. 
Andy

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## Sybarite

Well I don't know who you've been looking at but there are definitely quite a few Custom Made (not off the shelf) Unassembled Cabinet suppliers out there who will fabricate almost any design you want in almost any colour - definitely not just the White/Offwhite with three standard profiles that seem more ubiquitous. 
These fabricators provide Professional Grade cabinetry, in fact a lot of them cut boards and doors for cabinets  that are bought by cabinet makers who install them as their own. 
Up here I now use a crew who will make pretty much any design in colourboard or two pack in any colour (and profile) that I specify...but of course they don't touch vinyl anymore, and the feedback from builders and civilians alike has been unprecedented. 
There is definitely a top quality option available in the unassembled cabinetry market that is indistinguishable from any similar "installed" version. 
Cheers, 
Earl

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## arms

> This is really interesting. I'm about to spec a new kitchen for a reno we're about to start and its good to read all the feedback. I have looked at pretty much all the flat packs mentioned and without generalising they all apear to be pretty similar both in quality and cabinet type.
> The one thing I have noticed (and happy to be corrected) is the limitation on door styles and colours unless you want white or antique white...
> Erring towards smart pack at the moment, they have a great range of doors and colours. 
> Andy

  well now thats a different question that i can speak for myself ,the main reason there are limited colours is to keep prices down to a basement level ,the standard colours on most websites are popular and common ,usually made on hmr particle board ,commonly called commodity colours ,these are produced in thousands of square metres a run and as such are cheaper to produce through the sheer volume of product ,also if you have an online store like i do the more colours offered the more items you need to enter into the store ,at the moment on my store there are over 8,500 different combinations of doors,colours,cabinets available to pick to buy ,no matter what i pick for colours they will not satisfy everyones choice ,i have 4 popular colours on my site but in the same range there are 17 colours that can be offered for the same price i just dont want to sit down for 3 months to enter these different colours on the web store knowing damn well that they wont appeal to everyone ,i do many different colours and cabinets for people that have the insight to contact me with there project and i price them accordingly ,most times for less than they have worked out on the store ,simply by deleting the items they were going to order for the correct quantities ,i had one customer that ordered 8 lengths of kickboard instead of 2 as they needed ,but thats only because i contacted them to enquire why the large number against the cabinets ,but thats just me ,a larger company would have simply sent out what they ordered and left it at that

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