# Forum Home Renovation Decking  Is my brand new merbau deck ruined?

## Beam

Hi guys, long time reader , new time writer. 
Got a merbau deck built, its only a week old, and there are several merbau pailings with SPLITS in them  :Cry:  
I did sooooomre research on the construction of decks and a mate suggested that the builder not nail gun the nails, but screw them in, if not atleast pre drill the holes. 
This builder ( although a very nice man ) left MOST of the building to his two youngs lads that work for him, ( when I say young, I mean mid 20's ).....so I go out to sit on my deck this morning and to my  :Yikes2: I see these splits, I called the builder and he said, "ill come by and have a look ( he has not been paid, because of some adjustments to the invoice etc ).  Soooooo because its dark now, I cannot take pictures, but I will so you can see EXACTLY what i mean by the splits.  I am sooooo upset , because I dont want splits in my merbau deck, mind you he told me  
1. to rinse it down a few times, because of some gack that comes when its shipped form asia....I DID THAT
2. he said do not stain for at least 4 to 5 weeks....OK....but now this has happened.  
What i was hoping, from you guys...is some help on  what he will say " its not perfect you know, its not steel...there are imperfections".....well for - 
1. the deck is covered by a 3.5metre pergola 
2. I have seen planty a decks in mytime and I have NEVER seen any splits in them, bugger me if I am going to pay 7 grandK to have my deck look likes its been in my backyard for 20 years...its just not going to happen...... 
So please i was wondering whether someone could help with what I shall expect to receive from him next week as to the reasons why this has happened?.... 
Will he spin my a whole lotta bull on why it has happened and try and get away with it, because I have no issues getting him back to house to replace merbau pailings if that is what my 7K is going to get me, although I really wouldnt want to see him ever again if that is what the scenario will end up being. 
THANKS HEAPS..I will post photos for you guys to see early tomorrow morning, promise 
regards. 
Beam.... :Doh:

----------


## Gaza

if you accepted the lower cost option of a gun nailed deck then dont complian sure the builder should fix any boards that have structual spilts but the little ones where the nails is just plan bad luck.

----------


## Beam

so Gaza, what you are saying is that that truth is " you get what you paid for? " is that it...just because I didnt go with the 4 other OVER quoted deck builders, I should SETTLE for a crap deck!?..is a 60K european car going to work BETTER than a 30K japanese car, I think not....the holes were pre drilled and the nails were installed as per many deck building guides would suggest, I think my issue is that he had his boys do the job and whilst I was not home, did what they did with their eyes, closed, obviously my standard is better than theirs?.........no I am paying him to do a job, why oh why is it sooo damn hard for pl ( tradespeople ) to do what they are paid to do...... THE JOB RIGHT, I get paid to do a job and I dont do it half heartly, I do it properly... I do not believe I am being unreasonable..... so you are suggesting I should accept him to tell my next week, that I shouldnt walk under ladders, because I just had bad luck?...would you accept this if it we're youre deck?

----------


## Dan574

I may be blind but it never said in the original post that beam paid less for having it nail gunned.  (correct me if im wrong) 
Regardless of how the boards were fixed they should not be split.   
My mate has done his merbau deck by way of a nail gun and there are no splits anywhere in his.  He did pre-drill and hand nail the ends though. 
Lets see how big the splits are to see how bad they really are.  If the splits are too big and close to an end or side they may get bigger in time.

----------


## Beam

Hi Dan574,  
That is correct, I do not go for the cheapest quote in many instances, because I wanted a professional who specialises in decks, ( which this gentleman does ).. 
I have put the photos on my computer, hopefully you can see them in a little bit 
best regards 
Beam :Biggrin:

----------


## Beam

Hi again,   
Unfortunately this site will not let me upload pics, currently sorting it out with the administrator.  sorry 
After noticing the splits a week after the deck was finished, I phoned a local timber yard, who advised that the splits should certainly not have happened. In addition to my original post, would I be unreasonable to expect my guy to replace the merbau pailings at his own cost??? 
cheers, 
Beam :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Beam

hi again, to view some of the pics, i have had to resort to creating an album, you can view them in my public profile. 
thanks please let me know what you think.. 
regards 
Beam

----------


## Dan574

If I was paying $7K for this I would want them replaced. 
Im sure over time they will get bigger, ie run along the line they are going until they reach an end or side.  A few others on here will know if this true or not.

----------


## oohsam

here u go. I think its a pretty bad job. Those boards shoudl be replaced. Shouldnt be too hard. 
The nails are not even straight....Sorry, but in my opinon, if you get a pro to do the work, the nails should atleast be straight.

----------


## Beam

Hi again,  
thanks for the photos...look i understand, you cant be perdantic in one instance and not in another..but when youre not there to see what they are doing and you get out there and some nails are not even straight.!..I mean what do you do, I couldnt imagine someone saying... "sorry but the nails are not even straight, buddy, you need to redo the whole deck" he would have said, "no way!"...but what am i in the right to say , well sorry mate but I didnt get you to do a dodgy job, if that was what i wanted I would have got a kid down the street if not myself to have placed some pieces of wood together.. 
At the end of the day, I will not recommend him or use him again, and I will have to put it down to experience, ( should have checked out his other work, like I did with my bathroom, the bathroom guy did an excellent tiling job, so I knew what i was getting, and he was not cheap nor expensive ) . 
but one would hopefully not accuse me of being unfair if I tell him, I want them all replaced ( at his cost ) not my cost. 
regards 
beam :No:

----------


## TimDavis

Calm down and stop jumping up and down. This is no major drama. Accuse a tradesman of working with his eyes closed and automatically you create a nasty situation. Just calmly ask him to replace the split boards and the problem is solved.
 Believe it or not nails driven in an offset manner are better than a straight line. All in a straight line the joist underneath will most probably split, offset, the joist stands a better chance of remaining intact. This is a common and recommended method.
Yes it is probably just bad luck, the job was not done in a half-hearted manner, the boards just split because merbau is a very hard and brittle timber, not because the tradesmen are incompetent as you seem to imply. Nothing in this world is perfect, especially timber. I have seen far worse cases than this before.

----------


## Dan574

Like tim said approach him in a calm, manner and go from there,  I would want them replaced.   
If he doesnt want to come to the party then get someone else to fix them and then deduct this from the money owing.

----------


## Beam

Hi Tim, 
Yes telling a tradie he didnt do te job right, or should i say correctly, will invite all sorts of problems.. I recall getting picked up on things i have done at work incorrectly, and I dont recall wanting to throw a brick through my boss' window!. 
Like I said before I pay for something, I want to get something, what I paid for , not less , not more. 
I will speak to him calmly and I do not doubt he will co operate, but I do not want to have sarcasm and a response given in for good measure, as some people like to do, i.e ok ill replace them, but you know nothing in this world is perfect:".....for me just replace the boards and not say another word.. 
thanks again, I shall keep you posted. 
Cheers 
Beam :Wink 1:

----------


## Master Splinter

What did you get him to quote on? 
Other (more expensive) quotes might have included drilling/screwing the deck down, which is a slow and therefore expensive process. They might have also included stainless steel fasteners, which again add to the cost. 
Nailing is an 'acceptable' fastening method.  Not the best, simply an acceptable one, according to building practices. http://www.tabma.com.au/documents/TA...ng%20Guide.pdf 
If worst comes to worst, you've got what - half a dozen boards that need replacing?  Assuming a total length of 30 meters at $4.50 a meter - about $130 worth of timber.  It could just be a few dodgy boards from the supplier that have split due to internal stresses. 
Wait until you hear what he has to say before blowing your foo-foo valve.

----------


## Beam

master splinter.. 
Yes i shall wait to speak to him....the cost for me doesnt matter, because it will not be me paying for them. 
cheers 
Beam :Blush7:

----------


## TimDavis

Glad I live in the bush, don't often have to deal with city anger and arrogance.

----------


## Beam

City anger? and arrogance?...Tim, i am surprised you have access to the internet. 
Sorry I didnt realise that when you pay for something to be done, and something goes wrong with it, I am being 'arrogant', I just want a new merbau deck to resemble a new merbau deck, I didnt find that money in the 'bush'!...I earned it, and like the builder should do, is earn what he quoted and specified on his quote, build deck as per measurements etc., not build merbau deck and onus is on the deck owner to repair any splits in the wood within in week. 
You say that merbau tends to split, funny how the builder failed to mention that to me, oh perhaps because I wouldnt have gone with ahead with the quote?...I have had many issues over the past months with certain tradespeople and I do not apologise for getting annoyed....no wonder why tradesppl get bad names. 
I may have jumped the gun with the builder not replacing them, we shall see, however I do not appreciate the implication that I am being arrogant or angry, just frustrated and unformed. and your responses to why the merbau split, is exactly the load of garbage that tradespeople use on unsuspecting clients, to pull the wool over their eyes

----------


## UteMad

I must be stupid .. Can build a deck but cant find these great pics of yours.. 
Boy sounds like a game of pin the tail on the tradie lol 
utemad

----------


## Beam

having issues posting the pics, but member Oohsam got some pics on here for me, otherwise they are on my public profile. 
Beam

----------


## UteMad

had a look on your public thingy couldn't see them... for a better result in the future join photobucket and put them there then copy the img code and hey presto they come up automatically full size.. just like these below on how not to do merbau decking 
Sorry for those sick of these pics they just say it all so i keep re using them      
utemad

----------


## Beam

[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Public/Garden/DSC01968.JPG[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/Public/Garden/DSC01968.JPG[/IMG][IMG]file:///C:/Users/Public/Garden/DSC01968.JPG[/IMG]
Utemad
Pictures below....i week old deck 
goodness, those pics tell a story....is it true that a certain member mentioned Merbau "just happens to split because its a rigid timber " ?

----------


## rrobor

If I could put my two cents in, If the builder said boards may crack if we dont drill but its X cheaper then he is in the clear. I doubt very much if he did that and I sure as heck wouldnt pay first class prices for second class work. Years ago I had a carpet laid along a passage, the passage was straight the carpet wasnt, the pattern had a dog leg in it. After much fighting we accepted a price reduction. That was the worst deaL I ever made, It bugged me for several years till I got rid of it. Why should anyone accept second grade when thats not what they payed for. Sure the quality of the wood is not as good as it was but the contractor knows this and should work within these limits. To say Glad Im in the country suggests country people expect less, I dont think they do. All anybody wants is a fair deal, If this is cracking up in damp Victoria now, what is it going to do if we hit 46 again.

----------


## Beam

Hi rrobor,  
I was told by a mate about pre drilling,l but the ultimate was to screw them in. I DID ask the builder , because a mate suggested yadda yadda, and he advised that he only pre drills the ends....the cracks are at the end, go figure. The splits on the other boards, I BELIEVE are faulty boards, which I will have him replace, I see your point, but even if he said, some boards may split because I only pre drill at the ends, this is not a finished job, I have never seen someones deck with splits in it, be it merbau or not merbau. 
I cannot even bare to look at my deck at the moment, I have family coming to visit and I do not even wish to spend time out there, because I think it looks like a 20 year old deck, god knows what will occur when I stain it, oil or not? :Smilie:  
and yes rrobor, i agree if i am not happy with it when I pay him, i will never be happy. 
Beam

----------


## UteMad

Mate the splits off the nails are most likey due to the nails being put in without a pilot hole and made worse by the fact they are over driven.. the heads are not spose to be knocked below the top face of the board.. 
Mind you this is the norm with plenty of contractors so you cant really label anyone. the splits in the centre of the boards could be a few things .. the boards may have been cupped and the nailing flat has done it ?? they are harder to say but the ones around the fixings is poor technique although its not against Aust stands to do it this way either.. On the contrary we get beaten on price every day by contractors gun nailing or not using pilot holes.. but on the other hand would you have paid me say another $750 to have had it pilot holed countersunk and screwed with stainless screws.. i think not but probably on the next one now.. Hence why we pilot and nail our cheaper decks and pilot and screw for customers who appreciate the better quality as i dont want to end up with a customer airing my dirty laundry somewhere like here .. 
cheers utemad

----------


## Beam

Hi Utemad, 
I appreciate your thoughts....the thing is that I would have paid you $750 to do a better job if you told me you would, he was not the cheapest quote, but communication was good with him, he gave me a lot of details about how to maintain the deck etc, ( other than how to stain in ), and he was ( within my price range ) but I am not shy of paying more $$$ for better work, im not a cheapstake, but when someone tells you to buy a Sony because its a better product, and you find out that Hitachi plasmas have Sony electronics mechanics in their product, well..... hello you need to do your research. I was told by a tradie mate that $7k for what he did ( not a big deck mind you ) was a good and even price , not too much and not cheap. 
I did my research, got a builder who specialises in doing this type of work, but I told him right off the bat, im anal and I want things to be perfect, I dont want a job that llooks like its a home down job. He said "yep". 
Does this deck look like it would be a deck that an anal, perfectionist client would accept, would present a deck like this to a client of yours and not expect to be spoken to?.....please, you seem to understand where I am coming from, but some ppl here think I am being a real @@@@ and expect that I have a money tree in my backyard, regardless I could have money coming out from all ends,, doesnt mean I need to pay $20k to have a deck done, but if im not rich, I shouldnt be expected to get a crap deck either because im paying less than that......should the homeless be served dog food at shelters because its free, NO....otherwise dont provide it, I rather starve..anyway again i am going off the topic....i have had stresses trying to renovte my backyard and i keep hitting walls.

----------


## Beam

the builder told me to wait 4 to 5 weeks before staining, and to water it now and then. 
Shall i wait this time before staining?and should i oil it or just Cabots coat it ( it is under cover )? 
What does he mean by watering it now and then, everyday, every 2nd day ? 
Will watering it damage the merbau in anyway ? 
cheers
BEAMing

----------


## Dan574

> Glad I live in the bush, don't often have to deal with city anger and arrogance.

  mate  these posts wont win you any friends.  It @@@@@ me to tears when people dont give advice but rather smart @@@@ comments.  If you dont wont to help people, which what these forums are here for then dont post. 
Beam I see where your coming from, being armed with facts prior to fronting him is a good thing.  By the sounds of it, he is a reasonable bloke, so hopefully he will do the right thing.   
When is he having a look at the deck? 
interesting to see that the pics utemad supplied look like beams pictures apart from the nail gun mark.

----------


## rrobor

I would bring up another point, these nails look like ordinary nails not stainless. If the nails rust that will cause expansionand blow the cracks more. A deck should have stainless steel nails  or rust proof screws.

----------


## UteMad

> the builder told me to wait 4 to 5 weeks before staining, and to water it now and then. 
> Shall i wait this time before staining?and should i oil it or just Cabots coat it ( it is under cover )? 
> What does he mean by watering it now and then, everyday, every 2nd day ? 
> Will watering it damage the merbau in anyway ? 
> cheers
> BEAMing

  
We dont wait with Merbau ever.. read my sticky on how to coat your deck .. cant miss it .. its the top thread in the list .. this will guide you right through the way to coat your deck... As to the watering i reckon its the slow way and a bit of a toss.. follow the directions it'll be way cleaner in 20 mins 
utemad

----------


## UteMad

> I would bring up another point, these nails look like ordinary nails not stainless. If the nails rust that will cause expansionand blow the cracks more. A deck should have stainless steel nails or rust proof screws.

  Gal nails meet code so unless you specced it prior you have no leg to stand on with this comment.. Stainless is better as is a merc over a holden .. doesn't make the holden un road worthy..Its a cost thing .. 
utemad

----------


## UteMad

> Glad I live in the bush, don't often have to deal with city anger and arrogance.

  
Don't know if its the right comment to post but i know where your coming from.. City customers are quite often to full of there own self importance where country folk are more working class true to there word  ..Its more apparent with the 25-35's with supposedly high importance jobs that think that title flows out of there office and onto the street into the real world..  time will calm them down eventually but i see it every day.. 
utemad

----------


## TimDavis

Couldn't agree more. Born in the country but lived in Melbourne for 8 years. My impression is that country people deal with real and seriouse problems like fire, drought and death on a near daily basis which gives us perspective to cope with minor crap far more readily. Anyhow, apologies if I offended anybody, sorry, but the reaction seems to far outweigh the problem.

----------


## Chain

Its more apparent with the 25-35's with supposedly high importance jobs that think that title flows out of there office and onto the street into the real world.. time will calm them down eventually but i see it every day.. 
utemad[/quote]
Love it   :2thumbsup:  
Still, regardless of Beams age, he paid for & deserves quality for his money. At the very least an explanation why the quality is not there & at what offset cost.

----------


## rrobor

Sorry but thats just wrong. You are stereotyping people and thats one stage away from racism. My worst two customers were country as are my best two. City people have to put up with more scams and all sorts of rip offs, I would suggest more so than country folk so perhaps are more aware. But if I look at the address of the owner of the deck, I dont recognise the area so I would suspect he is country. But what really are you trying to say, is it that you can do shoddy work for country folk and they accept it  and city folk dont? because thats the impression you are imparting here. Rob

----------


## fixaruppa

Its common knowledge for any deck installer to predrill ends, and to test the power of the gun by nailing some sample pieces of the timber, especially merbau. The nails are not supposed to finish below the level of the timber, meant to finish flush. 
Another way to ensure the timber splits is to drive the nails straight rather than skew nailing, this will also mean the decking timber will work loose and you will be knocking the nails down every couple of years. If they are skew nailed, the nails dont work loose and your deck timbers will always remain firm. 
If the boards have already split after only being installed for a week or two, there is certainly going to be a lot more splitting over the years as the timber drys out and shrinks.  
The only option you have with the deck installer is to show him/her the causes of concerns, and if you dont get any satisfaction, get a second opinion from others in the trade, or advice from the industry bodies.

----------


## That Floor Guy

I've been working with the public for a long time, I used to get sucked into that stereotyping stuff but over the years have come to realize all that stuff has got nothing to do with anything. If you don't want prolems wth your customers don't start with that crap. Just deliver every job as you would your own and you won't have issues. Beam aunt being unreasonable in the slightest,he paid good cash for a dissappinting job. If that installer would accept that in his own house then he should give the game away.

----------


## binda

Hi Beam,
Yep, that is one ordinary job. I tried to read all posts before I typed out mine but it was just way to hard. Sorry, there seems to be some kind on debate going on about city vs country and I won't comment on that. 
That deck job looks awful. Offsetting the nails is a good practice to help reduce splits in the joists beneath the decking boards but I agree with you, the pattern should be uniform. Each offset nail pattern should be the same from board to board. Also it looks like the boards have not been cut straight which would just annoy me to no end. Those splits are fairly wild and I don't believe I would accept it unless they are few and far between. 
No solutions here, just sympathy.

----------


## rrobor

Binda, no I think you should. I think its up to us all when this sort of thing goes on to put your two cents worth in. After all the poor guy that asked the question was getting told he was a moaner and he didnt know how well off he was. His house was not burned down in the great fire, nor was it flooded out in the great flood Oh how happy he should be to pay for crap. So no, if we all accept this, people like yourself and That floor guy, compete with people who sell snake oil, and thats not fair. If He built that on my land I would give him 28 days to recover his property because I could never accept that. We all know its fatally flawed and has started from day one to disintigrate.  Rob

----------


## UteMad

Hey Beam 
Check out the cleaning sticky.. i just put up another merbau deck 10 yrs old that we restored for a forum member this week.. finished was spa and deck Jarrah
And as to your splits this deck was hand nailed with only the odd split at the nails near a join and not many and thats after 10 years exposure with only one coating when new according to the owner of the deck.. 
Hope you get yours sorted  http://www.renovateforum.com/showthr...t=75429&page=4 
cheers utemad

----------


## Eastwing

One fact that is missing in all of this and as a builder I find it relevant. I personally only do high end work Million+ dollar houses. When I quote something I quote the job to suite the house and the owners budget.  
A 50 square meter deck might cost $40,000 and you will find no faults at all. Now if I gave that same quote to someone with a $300,000 to $500,000 house you would never win a job. The builder at some point has to make a judgement on what he thinks you want to spend and make the job suite the budget.  
A $7000 deck in Camberwell, vs a $7000 deck in Frankston, will not give you the same deck. (yes I've seen crap building everywhere) It's the same with cars $20,00 might get you a brand new KIA, yet it will only get you a very old BMW. 
The builder may have thought he was doing the right thing, not everyone can afford a pre drilled hand nailed deck, just  as not everyone can afford a new BMW. If his Quote was $2000 more would you have given him the job?

----------


## UteMad

> One fact that is missing in all of this and as a builder I find it relevant. I personally only do high end work Million+ dollar houses. When I quote something I quote the job to suite the house and the owners budget.  
> A 50 square meter deck might cost $40,000 and you will find no faults at all. Now if I gave that same quote to someone with a $300,000 to $500,000 house you would never win a job. The builder at some point has to make a judgement on what he thinks you want to spend and make the job suite the budget.  
> A $7000 deck in Camberwell, vs a $7000 deck in Frankston, will not give you the same deck. (yes I've seen crap building everywhere) It's the same with cars $20,00 might get you a brand new KIA, yet it will only get you a very old BMW. 
> The builder may have thought he was doing the right thing, not everyone can afford a pre drilled hand nailed deck, just as not everyone can afford a new BMW. If his Quote was $2000 more would you have given him the job?

  
Now i know why you picked "estwing"!!   you hit the nail right on the head.. i am working on a 30+ million dollar house and all  the job has to be to that level of quality and pricing .. likewise if i went on the street like you say to joe average they would never pay it.. pilot and hand nail is our cheapest option and as such we lose plenty to gun nailed deck contractor coming in from cheaper suburbs.. Its a fact of life but something customers dont like to hear .I dont want to drop to there level as complaints will come from it and things like this will occur all to frequently. I copped enough for my last comment so was hoping someone else would thro their neck out for a change.. 
Utemad

----------


## Beam

hi guys,  
thanks for all your information, Utemad looking into staining it soon. 
WELL he has replaced them a week ago,and I went out there today and there are MORE SPLITS, now what? he wont keep coming back to replace them will he....in addition he has used a slighter lighter tone then what the other timber is at the moment, apparaantly they will change to the same colour as the others, apparantly.....is this true or did he use scrap from the back of his truck or purchase these different shade merbau timber for a discounted price, does merbau come in different shades???? and will they change ?? 
regards 
Beam

----------


## rrobor

Wood is wood, a batch of decking from one place may differ from that of another. Merbau normally comes from the Phillipines but the extraction rate has exceeded the growth rate so now the quality is reducing and more care has to be taken. Nail guns on a deck for me would not happen, the nails would be stainless and drilled. If the guy who built it had done that, it would have taken a couple of hours more and an extra couple of hundred which when explained. you would have payed. Now, I dont know where you should go.

----------


## Beam

> One fact that is missing in all of this and as a builder I find it relevant. I personally only do high end work Million+ dollar houses. When I quote something I quote the job to suite the house and the owners budget.  
> A 50 square meter deck might cost $40,000 and you will find no faults at all. Now if I gave that same quote to someone with a $300,000 to $500,000 house you would never win a job. The builder at some point has to make a judgement on what he thinks you want to spend and make the job suite the budget.  
> A $7000 deck in Camberwell, vs a $7000 deck in Frankston, will not give you the same deck. (yes I've seen crap building everywhere) It's the same with cars $20,00 might get you a brand new KIA, yet it will only get you a very old BMW. 
> The builder may have thought he was doing the right thing, not everyone can afford a pre drilled hand nailed deck, just  as not everyone can afford a new BMW. If his Quote was $2000 more would you have given him the job?

  EASTWING. 
I dont suppose you think to yourself what you have just said is valid? or even a nice thing to say to someone. Are you suggesting I dont make a lot of money so therefore my deck should look like crap. Yes a BMW and KIA are 2 prices and have even look different aesthetically, BUT the KIA's engine or tyres dont fall off when you drive it , or the seats in the KIA start to fall apart, yes its different quality but they are both NEW cars and they both drive safely....MY deck was built with crap timber that has split, my deck wdoes not look like my friend who earns 250K a year, but my deck shouldnt have cracked timber in it.....Im sorry but your argument is not justified to what I think you are trying to say....yes my deck is not looking like a 20 K deck, but it shouldnt look like its a 20 year old deck either. 
Beam

----------


## UteMad

Merbau bought from the same pack and stored in bundles ( therefore not in the light ) will appear different colour when laid the following day in summer.. I have bought bulk loads and ferried them to difficult sites on the ute over a few days and had customers accuse me of laying a different timber the next day.. Been there seen that.. 
The simple Merbau test.. Clean as per my sticky thread and look for the tiny uellow dots at the end of the grain ( not in the end grain on the face at the ends of the grain ) pretty easy to spot and the simplest merbau test for the consumer.. 
The sooner your clean and oil the sooner the board will slow down its climatising .. this wont stop splits around fixings but will slow the other splits.. You shouldn't be seeing too many splits from drying this time of the year on the east side of Aust ( cant comment on the other side as cant afford the fuel to drive there ) heheheheee 
Dont pick on eastwing .. its a fact of life in the building trade.. its not really job quality that changes more like job design and job finish.. and you don't tend to get offered the upper end of whats available if not in an upper end area as you most likely wont do it.. And before people say they will would you give me 25K for a 4m x 2m open pergola??? didn't think so but doesn't make it wrong when i build it for people who think its the quality that suits there home    
cheers utemad   
utemad

----------


## UteMad

oh the colour will change to tha same over a week or so or after you clean it as per our sticky.. That is assuming its merbau .. but you'd know that cause explained it above..
As to getting more splits around nails next week and the week after yes you may well.. Hwd boards just don't like deforming around nails driven in without a piolt hole.. they do it and you will get away with it but not all boards will tolerate it.. alot comes down to grain pattern where the nail goes in.. if the grain sweeps out to the edge of the board then a split is more likely as the break can easily split away 
clean and oil sooner than later is best advice  
utemad

----------


## Master Splinter

> apparaantly they will change to the same colour as the others, apparantly.....is this true or did he use scrap from the back of his truck or purchase these different shade merbau timber for a discounted price, does merbau come in different shades???? and will they change ?? 
> regards 
> Beam

  Timber is a natural product; colour will vary from log to log, but over time all timber will weather to a grey finish under sunlight. 
Different shades of timber are nothing uncommon (even in the same log you will get different colours depending on the time of year that the wood was growing - early and latewood) and when you buy timber, you have no guarantee that you'll be able to get that exact shade/grain again.  
One of the differences between the bloke who does $10k decks and the bloke who does $40k decks is that the cheaper quote is based on selecting timber based on price, then quality within that price; the more expensive guy is paying a premium for his timber to increase its quality (either with a timber yard that is more careful in its buying, or by the amount of time he uses to hand select timber for a job). 
To extend to the Kia/BMW anology, I would expect the Kia to make more plastic creaks and rattles when driven over a dirt road than the BMW as less time is put into the slow and fiddly task of prototyping and testing the fit of interior panels - Kia's goal might be 'nothing falls off' while BMW's might be 'nothing makes a noise'.   
I'd also expect the BMW to have a number of options that the KIA didn't - things such as a sequential manual gearbox instead of a standard H pattern shift; traction control; integrated GPS; sound isolated and damped cabin and other features not found on the Kia. 
Just out of interest, what is the size of the deck and what did his quote specify?

----------


## _kelly_

> A $7000 deck in Camberwell, vs a $7000 deck in Frankston, will not give you the same deck

  Can someone - if not the OP - explain this reasoning to me?  I don't get it  :No:

----------


## Beam

hi utemad  
was this 25K....?? hey nice pergola

----------


## Beam

master splinter. 
I understand Eastwing's anology/metaphor....i am obviously interpreting it as I see it..what i mean was that its difficult to say that when you go with a cheaper quote and you pick up on something, the tradesman says "wel what do you expect for 7k?"...for me its not that a more expensive quote would be due to materials, its due to their labour...otherwise most quotes would be around the same amount, i had a quote given to me for like 12k for a 6m by 3m deck and sorry , but the specifications where not that much diff. but he may have a higher hourly labour rate or he maybe didnt want to do that job, regardless i know how much trade prices are for timber, screws, beams, rafters, joists and I worked out what he invluded to be his labour rate and thought, thats reasonable based on what i was actually paying him per day like what i get paid per day ( withint reason, as my job is office based and his is physical labour ) so i atleast gave him more on his labour. 
if you know what i mean. 
Utemad I am confused a little on checking whether it is merbau again, yes there are yellow flecks, but haw am i to check that it is 100% merbau ????? 
cheers! 
BEAM

----------


## Eastwing

I only weighed in on this topic as I'm always hearing people complain about Tradies. I'm the first one to agree there are some shockers, and sometimes people will only get what they paid for. 
I think you missed some of my point. You said you paid $7000 and I'm going to have a guess here (correct me if I wrong) that you did not have a set of working drawings including all details relative to the job 
Soil report
Footing detail
Spans and timber grades 
Construction details (fixing methods, end details, ect)
Permits 
Without all this and lots more information, the person that is giving you a quote is in the dark as to what you really want. Calling a carpenter and saying "I want a Merbau deck 5m x 3m over there" really is not much information. You would never call a car yard and say I want a blue car with 4 wheels and room in the boot for a set of Golf clubs. How many cars fit that description? 
If You want something *SPECIFY IT*, the carpenter is not a mind reader, but as I said before he will use the information he has around him e.g.. the cars in you driveway your address. With this information he will give you a quote for what he thinks you want. Without more information what does he have to go on? Often people are not sure what they want at first but after speaking to a few Tradies and hearing their ideas, get a much better idea. When the third Tradie comes to give you a quote, you are armed with much more information than when you first started. Is this fair to the first and second Tradies that have traveled to give you a Quote without having all the information. 
This is where the issue is, your builder thinks you got what you paid for, and you think you should have got more. You are both right, Communication is the key here. 
I don't think you should have splits in you Decking. I do think in future you should be more specific as to what you want. Saying " I want a really good job" is never enough information.  
Jobs this size are probably the hardest for all involved, if you got plans and permits and all the other things that go with it (builders Warranty insurance) your $7000 would not go very far there might be enough money left over for a step. 
Good luck, if you need professional building advice send me a PM.

----------


## Beam

Eastwing,  
I totally understand where you are coming from....but I cannot agree that when i asked for a merbau deck ( btw i did have a permit and he gave me draftmans drawings included down to the concrete mix he was using and the galvanised nails/angular nails ) BUT I have no issue if he isnt perfect with his levelling or that he hasnt spread the darker boards across the lighter tone ones etc....I have suggesting without Specifics, like " hey buddy btw when I give you this job I want you to build me a nice looking deck, I am a perfectionist and i dont want my boards to split "...Im sorry but that is just common sense! who in their right mind would do a a bad job because you didnt Specify that you are anal about renovation, thats just not a sensible comment, I am sorry, I am not being perfectionist, I am asking for a deck to be built with materials that are not going to crack.. 
Please if you refer to my initial post, it states that I asked him how he builds the deck, he told me he pre drills holes, and i said ok, reason why i ask is because i was told by a MATE, that if you nail decks then your boards may split, the deck guy did NOT and i repeat did NOT tell me or warn me that the boards MAY SPLIT, there fore leaving way for me to have complained, which I did, otherwise I bet he didnt say that because he would not have been given the job, because i would not have been comfortable giving him the job if he was honest, but then again i might have....so what he was afraid of would happen, might not have and now he has come back to fix the deck, he was not clever, he is a professional he knows that the boards COULD split, but he didnt say that, which left him wide open to have me call him back, if he was smart he would have said, "maybe they will still split", but he didnt...so thats why im annoyed. 
regards 
Beam

----------


## bugsy

> I don't think you should have splits in you Decking. I do think in future you should be more specific as to what you want. Saying " I want a really good job" is never enough information.  
> .

  if you build decks for a living and suggest that this is not enough information, then would you ask your client for more or just do the job?
I believe when anyone does a job it is the tradies job to explain everything and exspectations to the client.
afterall you are the professional thats why your are hired.

----------


## UteMad

> hi utemad  
> was this 25K....?? hey nice pergola

  
Yep .. you could do a similar for cheaper i don't doubt but not with the finer and greatly unseen differences .. this one had a high std expected and a big list of quality features and construction methods all the way down to stainless steel nails in the lattice.. Post supports are even S/S.. it took me 4 weeks to complete it working 8 hours a day solid which shows the quantity of time spent on quality of finish.. a similar pergola could be done to a more std mainstream quality in a week with 2 men and look similar ..  
the yellow fleck in the grain is amerbau tell tale.. the colour will be the fact that the new hasn't been exposed to the light as long .. clean it all and compare the colour then.. only take you 30-45 mins to clean it.. The cheaper hardwood deckings dont have the fleck and most have a harder touch but this is harder to test for the home owner than the yellow grain fleck.. he wouldn't stand to gain much by dudding you on the replacement board as the others aren't greatly cheaper anyway  
cheers utemad

----------


## UteMad

below is the industry standard for fixing off boards.. if you read carefully whilst hardwood decking is shown in pics it is never said that you can nail hwd decking with these nails as they know they could be liable .. when i have asked in person i was told no warranty is given and what you choose to use the fixing for is your choice ..Atleast they say which shank to use for which joist material ..     
utemad

----------


## Master Splinter

I spent this morning looking around display homes, and since a few of them had decks I kept my eyes open for construction methods.   
Out of three decks (all by different builders), one was screwed (using what looked like bugle head self drilling screws) and two were nailed (gun nailed, not hand nailed). 
The screwed one had wide boards and looked very average - screws weren't always sunk flush with the board, sometimes sitting a mm or so up or down.   
The two nailed ones looked a bit better, but I still wouldn't give them any prizes - nails weren't all that evenly set out, some splitting at board ends, also occasional splitting around nails in the middle of the boards.  But I guess that's the standard they are building to these days! 
...now I know why I like doing things myself...

----------


## UteMad

the reason for the screws sitting up would be that they dont pilot and countersink they just rely on the self cutting tip and the cutters on the bottom of the countersunk head which aren't so effective into hardwood hence  the head sitting up.. but hey you have to look at what your paying for the whole house to see why they aren 't giving the same finish   
utemad

----------


## rrobor

I got a plumber in to hook up my gas cooker, "Do the right thing". Her indoors said. He broke six inches off the end of a floorboard getting the pipe up, the back foot of the cooker was in mid air, and to make it worse the steel foot and copper pipe were touching. For that I paid $230 The gas was leaking, you could smell, it and the wind howeled up the back. Its fine now, we can shut the kitchen window and no he didnt come back.  So yes its getting to the stage where you need to know all about the job you are getting, so much so that its just as easy to do it yourself and get the finish you want.

----------


## Beam

hi utemad,  
wellll..its been a whiles hasnt it....and guess what the colour has not changed, Now can i accuse him of not using Merbau or am I asking for trouble, im def. stuck between a rock and a hard place, how dare he use non merbau to fix the split original merbau, hello is this guy a complete moron or what...according to my research, merbau's lightest should be med red not light pine like colour??? 
cheers
BEAM

----------


## pykie

> I've been working with the public for a long time, I used to get sucked into that stereotyping stuff but over the years have come to realize all that stuff has got nothing to do with anything. If you don't want prolems wth your customers don't start with that crap. Just deliver every job as you would your own and you won't have issues. Beam aunt being unreasonable in the slightest,he paid good cash for a dissappinting job. If that installer would accept that in his own house then he should give the game away.

  
Absolutely spot on, best post of the thread  :2thumbsup:   
Some of the reply's in this thread are ridiculous. 
UteMad, the City/Country call is irrelevant. 
Its all down to what the tradesman is comfortable with, if you're comfortable with delivering split decks, rough, unsymetrical heaps of crap, then all glory to you. (Im not saying you) 
I take pride in my work, there's no way known I would deliver a deck of this quality to a client, even if I had my apprentices working on it, they are taught the standards from day 1. 
And if another tradesman delivered a botched job in one of my homes, he would be required to fix it to a good enough standard. 
To Beams: You have every right to be agrieved about your deck. His deck complies with all structal/manufacturers standards, however, its not up to the quality a reasonable person should demand. 
Ask him to replace the boards civily, again, as he sounds like a "reasonable guy". 
And as someone else has said, if he doesn't agree, get a quote to replace the boards/labour and deduct it from his payment.  
Edit: Already resolved.  
It should also serve as a lesson for you. Ask some more questions when you're doing a job like this. Specify what you want/dont want to happen. 
Personaly, I dont skimp on quotes, I only quote a job to a standard that I would be happy with. 
Thus, I only quote decks (mainly for screws), every hole piloted, counter sunk etc, and for a nailed deck; every hole will be pre-drilled, and hand driven. 
I wont let a nail gun near one of my decks. 
Its all about neatness.

----------


## UteMad

> hi utemad,  
> wellll..its been a whiles hasnt it....and guess what the colour has not changed, Now can i accuse him of not using Merbau or am I asking for trouble, im def. stuck between a rock and a hard place, how dare he use non merbau to fix the split original merbau, hello is this guy a complete moron or what...according to my research, merbau's lightest should be med red not light pine like colour??? 
> cheers
> BEAM

  Hi Beam 
mate is the colour totally different or just slightly?? it is easy enough to the trained eye to spot merbau over say another indonesian like batu.. Batu is browner and surface harder and tends to have a drier less waxy feel to the touch.. if your saying its yellower then it must be either yellow belau or if he is totally stupid black but or spotted gum or tallow wood.. only ones i can think of readily available and at a same or cheaper price.. how about a pic of the patched section.. did you see the yellow fleck in the grain ends on the original merbau boards when cleaned??? if so can you see them in the patrched boards? 
cheers utemad

----------


## jimj

You can always count on Utemad to offer great responses based on sound and practical experience. If I was building a deck and wanted to know the BEST way to build it for the fairest price I would call him. As I am a total computer gumby who can't work out how to post some photos on this forum, if anyone can help me I would be delighted to post the many photos I have from my timber deck restoration work.  
In the past when I have tried to post, it tells me my photos are too large with the the number of pixels or something. ( Be kind as I am an ancient dinosaur)
I do have a copius number of photos that show various coatings on a number of popular timbers used in decking construction.  
So if anyone can help this gumby of the computer world please do. In return I can post a large number of before,during and finished decks. 
Thanks, 
jimj     www.restore-a-deck.com.au

----------


## UteMad

Hi Jimj 
the quickest and simplest way to put up pics is to join photobucket  http://photobucket.com/
you upload the pics from your computer to there.. doesn't matter how big they are just select in photo bucket to upload them at 600 x 400 and they'll show near full screen on the forum.
once you have uploaded the pic to photobucket it will put the codes below the pic .. there are 4 of them from memory.. you just cut and paste the "IMG" one into your post on the forum a hey presto the pic appears in your post without having to deal with the forum issues.. photobucket holds the pics for you so you can use them time and time again.. if you need help ring me one night and i will run you through it .. 
cheers utemad

----------


## jimj

Thanks Utemad, 
I knew besides being a deck builder you would also have a way to do the photos. It always sounds easy but I generally hit a snag somewhere. I will have a shot and see if I can get some photos to the forum.  
JimJ

----------


## Beam

Pykie,  
yes I agree you live and learn...I wont ever understand why ppl think just because their standards are not like mine, they assume you will put up with their style of work, bugger me though not advising how anal I am about paying lots of money to someone to actually do what I asked them to do in the first place. 
but yes I have learnt a lesson. 
Utemad: 
All is now is to stain it, off to Bristol to get some stuff or maybe bunnings, Utemad??  spa and deck because my deck is under cover and doesnt have exposure to sun rain etc..except for a small section. Posting photos today of the whole deck as well as the patching timber difference, I can see yellow flecks in the lighter wood, but surely those yellow flecks are also found in other wood or no??? 
cheers 
BEAM 
Utemad

----------


## UteMad

wont say they aren't but cant think of another decking off hand that looks like merbau that has the yellow flecks in the grain tips.. 
like i say if you look at the stuff all the time its one of the easier boards to spot .. 
hope the deck looks great in the end and all this is behind you.. If you been in qld on the beach you might have been able to twist my arm to look at it for a week or two but Melbourne !!! me thinks not heheheheheee   Not til the end of the year til i check out your great ocean road  
cheers utemad

----------

