# Forum More Stuff At the end of the day  Yet another election day approaching.

## Marc

Yep ... once more democracy calls for the sovereign populus to cast their will in the form of a vote. 
Of course once the people's will is in, it is open to interpretation, and preferential  manipulation, distortion, up for buy and sale, swap and negotiate, make the required socially responsible adjustments, subject to formulas and percentiles to then give us their version of what is left over of a democratic vote. 
Whoever "wins" will decide in which way they will attempt to make the majority miserable and the minority a winner.  
The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auctionsale of stolen goods. - H. L. Mencken 
Democracy is the pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance ... H.L. Mencken 
And last but not least, for those who follow my predilection for the big AGW fraud ...   The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. H. L. Mencken

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## Bros

Be good if you put in quotes what others have said and what you have said as it is then easier to see what you are saying.

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## Marc

I used to think I was indecisive ... 
but now I am not too sure  :Smilie:

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## Bloss

So what's the alternative? Dictatorship led by Marc? As Churchill said in the UK House of Commons in 1947 (quoting an aphorism of unknown source) "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

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## Cecile

> men

  And women, don't forget. 
A government is only as good as its subject matter experts where knowledge is concerned.

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## toooldforthis

maybe we could follow Ukraine's example - except I cant think of any good Australian comedians.

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## r3nov8or

> maybe we could follow Ukraine's example - except I cant think of any good Australian comedians.

  Lawrence Mooney has it covered... https://youtu.be/Z1vuEMRHeOY

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## Marc

> So what's the alternative? Dictatorship led by Marc?

  Personalising debate rather than debating the idea, is one form of stopping or degenerating the debate. 
Rather pathetic, yet very common especially among the left that is acting like the Stasi in the 60ties.  
Recognising our own faults is the best way to improve. Clearly democracy is not perfect and we make it even less perfect with preferential voting that is buying and selling the people's will and morphe it into the will of those we pay to govern and that are instead robbing us blind.  
...government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auctionsale of stolen goods. - H. L. Mencken 
How else can a government that does not own money nor means of production promise to "give"?  It can only do so by stealing from the productive to give to the unproductive in the delusion that such actions will show them in a higher moral light and make it desirable to vote them in.  Such delusion is based on the fallacy that the prosperous has prospered at the expense of the "less fortunate", and that prosperity is the result of luck, mana from the heaven, blessings from the gods, rather than hard work. Of course the opposite is only due to having pulled the shorter straw, born the wrong side of the street and other hilarious yet unprosperous ideas, that have as message that it is not necessary to work hard, only to have a stroke of luck or be given an equalising share by the omnipotent government.

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## davegol

The biggest issue with democracy is that at its heart is socialism.
Each and every person is, equally, gifted precisely the same thing - one vote - whether they deserve it or not. 
And most don't.

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## r3nov8or

> The biggest issue with democracy is that at its heart is socialism.
> Each and every person is, equally, gifted precisely the same thing - one vote - whether they deserve it or not. 
> And most don't.

  Do I deserve my vote? How would I know?

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## Bloss

Sensitive soul it seems (as though calling another member 'pathetic' or a 'Stasi' is apparently not personalising), but no alternatives offered in reply  . . . we can infer that you like first past the post voting. Simple, but also simplistic. Works well when there are only two candidates. 
When there are three the winning candidate needs to get just 33% +1 vote - meaning 66% of voters did not vote for them. 
When there are 4 candidates then the winning candidate needs to get just 25% +1 vote - meaning 75% of voters did not vote for them. 
When there are 5 candidates then the winning candidate needs to get just 20% +1 vote - meaning 80% of voters did not vote for them. 
That'd be called anti-democratic - as the UK shows. 
The fairest and most democratic is the Hare-Clark Proportional Representation with Robson Rotation as used in the ACT and Tasmania. That gives the closest results in terms of % of votes and proportion of MPs elected. To stop outlier candidates and instability that might arise (it hasn't in ACT or Tasmania) that could be modified to incorporate a New Zealand style of a certain number of seats elected by the whole jurisdiction. Not the whole MMP system as it has first past the post for the single electorates which has the same distortions mentioned above, but as an adjunct to a Hare Clarke system it would increase the precision of the electoral outcome. 
Of course when people say they don't like the system, it usually just means they don't like those the majority have voted for . . .

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## Marc

> Sensitive soul it seems (as though calling another member 'pathetic' or a 'Stasi' is apparently not personalising), but no alternatives offered in reply

  I am sure you did not miss the fact that I did not call "you" pathetic, but your style of reply. (If you feel that such makes you pathetic, that is for you to interpret  :Smilie:  . )Just like I call the _attitude_ of the left _like_ the attitude of the Stasi, particularly in their quest for shutting down debate rather than engaging and reply with intelligence instead of bully tactics. There are many people with political thoughts of the left confession that are otherwise good people and that wouldn't know what the Stasi represents. Yet when a conservative speaker comes to their university chose to start a riot rather than listen and reply with alternative ideas, knowing that the university dean is bent just like them and will send the bill to the speaker's organisation.  
No one can say that the system of preferential voting we have in Australia is ideal or even good. It is pathetic and the results of the Wentworth by election is but one of the many examples when vastly superior primary votes were defeated by trading and swapping preference votes, Votes that had a different target but got used to prop up a losing candidate that won with minority votes. In other words it is an official way to cheat and rig an election.  
The obvious way to overcome this is with the French system of ballotage. Multiple candidates receive each a number of votes, but when it comes to elect one, the voters need to vote again with this time only two choices. Surely a similar system can be adopted for our representative method of voting and the decision not left to a bunch of biased morons with conflict of interests.  
Ballotage is held at a later stage when the results are known and the voter has the time to decide who of the two proposed he likes the most even when not his primary choice. It is the only way to assure that the will of the voter is enforced and not misused. 
As for the ACT and they supposed perfection, I am of the opinion that the ACT should be abolished and made part of NSW. Their parliament sacked and their laws made part of the archive in some museum we should start with all the exhibits from the era of idiocy, for future generations to ponder. Tasmania to have ONE single solitary representative for the pitiful number of citizen who chose to take refuge down there.

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## Marc

Maybe you can tell us how voting works, and the system used in the US?
All I know is that it is not compulsory and that you vote for president (?) 
As far as elections, we just had the biggest ever election in the world, in Indonesia ... 190 millions voting. Of course if you had compulsory elections you would have a similar number of voters.  
On the other side of America, October elections in Argentina.

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## PhilT2

> As far as elections, we just had the biggest ever election in the world, in Indonesia ... 190 millions voting.

  Not even close. India currently having elections; 500 million voted last time, could be 900 million this time.

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## PhilT2

Early voting starts Monday. Sites listed on Electoral Commission site  https://www.aec.gov.au/?gclid=CjwKCA...xoCoGoQAvD_BwE

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## Cecile

> Am I the only American here lol

  That depends.  I'm an expat from New York originally, but have been in Australia over 40 years.  So, yes and no!

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## Marc

It is enough that the people know there was an election. 
The people who cast the votes decide nothing. 
The people who count the votes decide everything. 
Joseph Stalin

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## Bros

> It is enough that the people know there was an election. 
> The people who cast the votes decide nothing. 
> The people who count the votes decide everything. 
> Joseph Stalin

   I didn’t know Stalin knew the meaning of election.

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## r3nov8or

> I didn’t know Stalin knew the meaning of election.

   I think "_It is enough that the people know there was an election._" is the key  :Smilie:

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## phild01

I reckon too many people are unaware of party preferences. It would be good if the ballot paper indicated where preferences flow from the insignificant parties, it might have a significant impact on the final outcome. Seems this election most people want the Libs back.

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## r3nov8or

> I reckon too many people are unaware of party preferences. It would be good if the ballot paper indicated where preferences flow from the insignificant parties, it might have a significant impact on the final outcome. Seems this election most people want the Libs back.

   Big Clive is making an announcement re preferences at 1pm, apparently.

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## Bros

> Seems this election most people want the Libs back.

  Depends entirely on the papers you read and the shock jock idiots you listen to. 
I have a choice here of dumb and dumber not a great deal to pick from.

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## DavoSyd

> Seems this election most people want the Libs back.

   

> Depends entirely on the papers you read

  there are very few newspapers (are there any at all?) publishing polls that show Coalition ahead of Labor...

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## r3nov8or

> there are very few newspapers.

  Correct   :Smilie:

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## phild01

The polling shows libs ahead but the preferences put labour out front.

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## DavoSyd

> The polling shows libs ahead but the preferences put labour out front.

  do you think that will tip towards the libs soon?

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## chrisp

I find this site good for opinion polls - https://www.pollbludger.net/ 
It provides an aggregate of all the opinion polls too, as well as betting odds.

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## Bedford

There is only one poll that matters and that is on the 18th of may, anything else is just BS.

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## phild01

Labour would landslide it in if they got rid of moaning Shorten and pea brain Bowen!

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## r3nov8or

> anything else is just BS.

  Bill Shorten

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## Marc

> Labour would landslide it in if they got rid of moaning Shorten and pea brain Bowen!

  You mean Labour would win if it wasn't for Labour. 
Reminds me of Fawlty Towers ... Hospitality is such a good job if it wasn't for the customers!   :Smilie:    

> ...search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auctionsale of stolen goods. - H. L. Mencken

  Promise $1000 of dentistry work to pensioners (never mind that they already have free dental care) yet no one is asking who is paying for this. Is BS paying from his pocket? No. Does the government have a secret stash of money? No they have debts. 
How does BS intend to pay? By robbing you, yes you. BS is trying to emulate Hugo Chavez ... or may be Eva Peron? You never know, since gender is fluid ...

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## DavoSyd

> I find this site good for opinion polls - https://www.pollbludger.net/ 
> It provides an aggregate of all the opinion polls too, as well as betting odds.

  good one! 
thanks Crisp... 
Labor @ $1.27 - that's not such a safe bet really?

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## Bros

There was a premier in Queensland who was very clever and he would always go into an election preaching that he was the underdog so everyone loved an underdog.  
He was also so smart he knew when to go most politicians done know when to leave.

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## Bros

> There is only one poll that matters and that is on the 18th of may, anything else is just BS.

  Agree but you can have fun until then.

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## Bedford

> Agree but you can have fun until then.

  Yep, until it gets dirty and the Mods close the thread!  :Biggrin:

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## r3nov8or

> Agree but you can have fun until then.

  And then the real fun starts

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## SilentButDeadly

It's pretty clear that few understand how preferences are actually supposed to work...but if you want to follow a how to vote card then more fool you. 
In the meantime...I'm going to shove my democracy sausage up Clive Palmer's fundament. It's the least I deserve for his political spam.

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## toooldforthis

its tricky eh?
Normally I dont follow the election campaign much since I decide on my vote before they announce the date based on their performance since the last election.
But that only really worked when there was a candidate worth voting for. Back in the day when I happened to live in electorates where quality independents ran. Now I live on the fringe  :Smilie:  
But now with the old media going even more trashy and the so called journalists more tribal it is getting difficult to even know what is going on. I tend to follow the economy regularly, and the fed govt gets some coverage, but I havent a clue what is going on at State level  the WA media has been absorbed by the globalists. 
I know we have always been fed what they want us to hear, and even when stuff does get out it gets managed and contained, eg the Bank RC where the banks controlled the terms of reference and all the attention was focused on the mortgage brokers (who were just doing the banks biding the whole time anyway). And now we have Watergate, amongst others, which will probably be contained for this election cycle at least.  Meanwhile all the graft and corruption that has been uncovered just seems to wash away. Plenty of examples but eg Andrew Robb when minister approved the sale of Darwin port to foreign interests then left parliament and took a $400k consultancy with the new owners. I mean, wtf! 
Its seems to me that one of the main causes is that now all our parliamentarians are political careerists  never had a job outside of the bubble. 
And our journalists are in the same bubble  cant see the forests for the trees. 
Where are the politicians with vision?
Do we get what we deserve when they realise our vote can be bought easily within a few weeks of an election and they do whatever they like the rest of the time?

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## John2b

Net government debt has doubled to $½ trillion during the last 6 years whilst government dept to GDP ration blew out from 28% to 42% - and that's without Labor in power. Not hard to believe when our guvmint happily spends more than $1 million per year per asylum seeker arriving by sea to 'stop the boats' whilst allowing ~50,000 asylum seekers to arrive by air over the same period without so much as a sneeze. Better to spend $4 billion per year on a false sense of border security, than a few million on false sets of teeth for pensioners.

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## Moondog55

What "Free" dental care mate. Only at a certain place and after a decades waiting list. $1000- at current dentists rates is simply a clean and scrape with an advisory that you need a few thousand dollars worth of remedial work ASAP
We should have Medicared dentists 3 decades ago
Lets face it all politicians are arrogant lying barstads with their eyes on their own welfare fist and foremost. Labor will probably win and nothing will really change

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## phild01

> Net government debt has doubled to $½ trillion during the last 6 years whilst government dept to GDP ration blew out from 28% to 42% -

  So let's conveniently ignore the huge deficit Labour left the current government with and the massive interest on that debt that has to be met...not much wriggle room but for the debt to increase!

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## John2b

> So let's conveniently ignore the huge deficit Labour left the current government with and the massive interest on that debt that has to be met...not much wriggle room but for the debt to increase!

   As you've pointed out  the LNC government has totally failed to address the *debt disaster* they proclaim to have inherited, and they want people to believe they are good financial managers  :Rolleyes:

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## phild01

> As you've pointed out  the LNC government has totally failed to address the *debt disaster* they proclaim to have inherited, and they want people to believe they are good financial managers

  So the root cause is of no matter to you!  As I see it, they have managed Labour's mismanagement quite well.

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## Marc

You can not take seriously comments from the left in any shape or form. Just look at the stats that state labour spending promises are less than liberal, then find out that they have factored in TAX REDUCTIONS into their spending in order to inflate the numbers. 
The greens aka watermelons should be declared economic terrorist and banned. Anyone supporting them declared suspicious.

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## phild01

Not sure I follow, there is a glut of new housing development but BS wants to restrict neg gearing to new property only.  Is he also going to remove the associated capital gains tax, removing it for purchases of existing property. Smells of the old birthday cake to me.

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## Bros

All the forums and FB sites I go to overwhelming support Libs so from that you would think labour has no chance and shouldn't bother turning up. 
A friend of mine was talking today at out Mens Shed and he said he was changing TV stations and stumbled on Credlin/Bolt/Richardson show. He said Credlin was talking and they said the did a poll and they interviewed people on the street and none of those interviewed supported labour he said and rightly so that blew their credibility out of the water as the never interviewed any labour supporters. 
I have never believed the media is unbiased.

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## Uncle Bob

> How does BS intend to pay?

  I think his plan is to stop giving money to those who don't really need it.

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## Marc

After the first year of the KR experiment you couldn't find one person that would confess to have voted labour. 
Yet do not underestimate the lure of "something for nothing" as labour supporters think of the government as an extra large tit to suck from.

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## Marc

> I think his plan is to stop giving money to those who don't really need it.

   I think you are giving BS too much credit. He intends to win the election, is not interested in govern. His strategy of winning is a class war, exacerbating the have not by labelling anyone with a decent job or a decent retirement plan as "rich" and therefore evil and worthy to be plundered.

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## Uncle Bob

That's only your opinion, not fact. I think he's going to try to stop the plundering. Let's face it the 'tickle down effect' has actually only been a tickle up, where those that have money get more money from the bottom, widening the gap,  all along while not even paying tax, or even getting money from the gov when they didn't pay a cracker in tax. 
It's unfortunate that the greedy few need to mandated to try and make them into better person.

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## phild01

> all along while not even paying tax, or even getting money from the gov when they didn't pay a cracker in tax.

  Not sure if this is what you are referring to: https://www.commsec.com.au/support/l...dits-work.html *Dividends are paid out of profits which have already been subject to Australian company tax which is currently 30%. This means that shareholders receive a rebate for the tax paid by the company on profits distributed as dividends.* 
BS is full of it.

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## Bros

> His strategy of winning is a class war, exacerbating the have not by labelling anyone with a decent job or a decent retirement plan as "rich" and therefore evil and worthy to be plundered.

  Morrison doesn't have clean hands there either just ask those with a large super balance and the lowering of the threashold where self funded retirees could access part pension, labour never did that when they were in government.

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## John2b

> I think his plan is to stop giving money to those who don't really need it.

   Best answer - go to the top of the class!

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## Uncle Bob

> Not sure if this is what you are referring to:

  Sort of, but this sums up the stink https://www.smh.com.au/national/how-...13-p4z45l.html

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## John2b

> Let's face it the 'tickle down effect' has actually only been a tickle up

  No I can't agree with you on that point. All around the world in western neoliberal economies like Australia, any trickle down has been obliterated by the mammoth flood up of wealth to the 1% who now have most of the world's wealth.

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## John2b

> *Dividends are paid out of profits which have already been subject to Australian company tax which is currently 30%. This means that shareholders receive a rebate for the tax paid by the company on profits distributed as dividends.*

  So when I earn income from someone who has already paid tax on their income, I should not have to pay tax on my income. I like it!

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## phild01

> So when I earn income from someone who has already paid tax on their income, I should not have to pay tax on my income. I like it!

  I think there is more to it than a simplistic and flawed analogy like that.

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## John2b

> I think there is more to it than a simplistic and flawed analogy like that.

   Not really.

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## Marc

Ignorance is no excuse. The fact that you clearly do not understand how finances and tax law works does not make your feeling of inadequacy valid. 
Tax rebates are not necessarily personal, tax payment can be made on behalf of others, corporations pay tax on investment by third parties and that third party is then not required to pay. The tax situation of that third party investor is irrelevant in this case. 
And if by chance you think that someone that does not pay net tax shouldn't get a rebate for moral grounds, then you are in for a shock. 50% of folks pay zero net tax yet they cash in their tax rebate dutifully. 
Doctrine, particularly when rehashed without understanding it, is rather stupid.

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## John2b

> So the root cause is of no matter to you!

   Happy to judge them on actual performance, hence my posts.

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## John2b

> All the forums and FB sites I go to overwhelming support Libs so from that you would think labour has no chance and shouldn't bother turning up.

  Perhaps it's time to explore the world outside of your current social echo-chamber...

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## John2b

> Doctrine, particularly when rehashed without understanding it, is rather stupid.

  To quote Kenneth Williams: "I know, I know!" Carry on...

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## phild01

> Happy to judge them on actual performance, hence my posts.

  Considering how Rudd, Gillard, Shorten and Swan mucked about without any sense of direction, your judgement defies my understanding.

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## John2b

> Considering how Rudd, Gillard, Shorten and Swan mucked about without any sense of direction, your judgement defies my understanding.

  Er... we were talking about the last 6 years of LNC guvmint and how THEY have performed.

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## Marc

As usual I have dragged in the dorbel fopdoodle, whiffle-waffling and foodling at every step, rakefire that hangs around like the proverbial bad smell. 
The worst part is that even those vote. 
The downside of democracy.

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## DavoSyd

Please stop using the word Labour     :Doh:

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## chrisp

I think everyone is quietly assuming (or quietly denying?) that it looks like we are in for a change of government. As an ‘out-there thought’, imagine for a moment that the present government is returned... 
The Liberal Party has been high jacked by its right-wing and has become very out of touch. This is not limited to Australia - it has happened in the USA and the UK. 
For some crazy reason, the Liberal Party seems to have become  preoccupied with winning back votes from the extreme right (PHON etc.) and wants to move further right to recapture those votes. I don’t know why they bother as I suspect that a PHON voter would likely preference the LNP ahead of Labor (however, I might be assuming too much from a PHON voter?). All the while, they are isolating the middle ground where elections are won. 
If somehow the LNP are returned, it would unfortunately affirm their ‘shift to the right’, and affirm a continuation of climate change denial (in the form of go-slow tactics, let’s wait and see, it’ll damage the economy, and similar tactics), looking after the rich and the forever-aspirational-rich (and who’ll probably never actually become rich by ‘working hard’ - such is the myth of the ‘American dream’). Meanwhile, the rest of the world will move on and Australia will become a backwater once again. 
I think for the good of politics, the LNP, and Australia, that the LNP needs to lose this election (and hopefully lose a few of their right-wing members of parliament) so that we can have a healthy government and a healthy opposition. So, ironically, I suspect that Get-Up and it’s campaign on the LP right-wing members could actually be doing the LP a favour. 
On a seperate note, it is good to see that social media seems to be reducing to influence of the old fourth-estate and it’s bias and influence on politics.

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## John2b

> The downside of democracy

  ...is that people with a different opinion, or life experience, to your own might have a say in how our country should be governed. I can only empathise about how appalling that must seem to you.

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## John2b

> I think for the good of politics, the LNP, and Australia, that the LNP needs to lose this election (and hopefully lose a few of their right-wing members of parliament) so that we can have a healthy government and a healthy opposition.

   Such short memories we all have when it comes to world history and politics. On an 'absolute' scale, the next government will be either the centre-right Labor party or the far-right Liberal-National coalition.

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## phild01

> Such short memories we all have when it comes to world history and politics.

  And forget the previous record of Rudd and Gillard.  

> Er... we were talking about the last 6 years of LNC guvmint and how THEY have performed.

  As I already mentioned, quite happy with how Libs got a dustpan to Labour's mess. 
BTW, I am a swinging voter, just waiting for Labour to get their act together. Also have little to gain from neg geariing or franking credits. It's just that the Libs manage the economy far better.

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## Bros

> Perhaps it's time to explore the world outside of your current social echo-chamber...

  My real friend are fine the on line ones are another matter.

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## SilentButDeadly

Lib-Nats have hung their shingle around the necks of the Boomers and  the latter half of Gen X. These people are a powerful but dying market. 
Labor has begun trying to woo younger generations whilst also trying to maintain their own older  rusted on  mates...that comes with the risk of managing not only the dichotomy but also the frivolous nature of youth. 
I haven't voted for either mob (not much point in a rusted on National seat) in decades but you do have to admire the risky but long view approach of Labor versus the stodgy now now approach of the Libs. 
I don't really care who wins to be honest...

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## PhilT2

> I don't really care who wins to be honest...

  The bookies still have Labor ahead, but the gap may close up in the home straight.

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## r3nov8or

> The bookies still have Labor ahead, but the gap may close up in the home straight.

  Clive has given birth, and called her Winx. Watch out!  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> Clive has given birth, and called her Winx. Watch out!

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## Bros

The worst result we can have on 18th May is no result.

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## Bigboboz

> I think everyone is quietly assuming (or quietly denying?) that it looks like we are in for a change of government. As an ‘out-there thought’, imagine for a moment that the present government is returned... 
> The Liberal Party has been high jacked by its right-wing and has become very out of touch. This is not limited to Australia - it has happened in the USA and the UK. 
> For some crazy reason, the Liberal Party seems to have become  preoccupied with winning back votes from the extreme right (PHON etc.) and wants to move further right to recapture those votes. I don’t know why they bother as I suspect that a PHON voter would likely preference the LNP ahead of Labor (however, I might be assuming too much from a PHON voter?). All the while, they are isolating the middle ground where elections are won. 
> If somehow the LNP are returned, it would unfortunately affirm their ‘shift to the right’, and affirm a continuation of climate change denial (in the form of go-slow tactics, let’s wait and see, it’ll damage the economy, and similar tactics), looking after the rich and the forever-aspirational-rich (and who’ll probably never actually become rich by ‘working hard’ - such is the myth of the ‘American dream’). Meanwhile, the rest of the world will move on and Australia will become a backwater once again. 
> I think for the good of politics, the LNP, and Australia, that the LNP needs to lose this election (and hopefully lose a few of their right-wing members of parliament) so that we can have a healthy government and a healthy opposition. So, ironically, I suspect that Get-Up and it’s campaign on the LP ring-wing members could actually be doing the LP a favour. 
> On a seperate note, it is good to see that social media seems to be reducing to influence of the old fourth-estate and it’s bias and influence on politics.

   :Wat they said:  
Except for the last line...

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## Bigboboz

> On an 'absolute' scale, the next government will be either the centre-right Labor party...

  Centre-right, similar to ABC then?

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## Uncle Bob

That's a great post Chrisp and pretty well sums things up I reckon.
I used to like John Howard's Libs and thought they did a fairly good job (with the exception of the way they sold off Telstra). Unfortunately I feel the mob we have now are just a bunch of fascists lining their and their cronies pockets with every other Australians money. 
I'll never forgive the Libs for what they did to the NBN, it's now mostly a complete waste of money.

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## phild01

Will never agree the NBN was a great idea.  But then I don't watch video content like everyone else it seems.  Video content comes at a massive cost that people don't seem to care about.

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## Marc

​I like what Sartwell has to say about the alleged division between left and right, but enjoy much more his description of the left.* 
The Left-Right Political Spectrum Is Bogus*  It might be a division between social identities based on class or region or race or gender, but it is certainly not a clash between different ideas.  CRISPIN SARTWELL https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...-bogus/373139/ 
...The left pole, meanwhile, could be a stateless society of barter and localism; or a world of equality in which people are not subordinated by race, gender, and sexuality; or a pervasive welfare state; or a Khmer Rouge reeducation regime.  
The Nazi Party, Catholic Church, hereditary aristocracy, Ayn Rand capitalists, and redneck gun enthusiasts are _all on the same side_ of the left-right spectrum. So are hacktivists, food-stamp officials, anti-globalization activists, anarcho-primitivists, and advocates of a world government. It would be hard to come up with a less coherent or less useful way of thinking about politics.  Examining another familiar opposition, between “equality” and “liberty,” produces another cluster of contradictions. The left holds up “equality” as a fundamental value. The means leftists propose to increase economic equality almost always increase political inequality, because these means consist of larger state programs: more resources and rules, coercion and surveillance in the hands of officials or state contractors, including in welfare-type programs. 
 The welfare state is more pervasive now than it was a century ago, and we now have institutions like compulsory public education. These are achievements of the left, programs they are still trying enhance, but have they actually resulted in more equal societies? Quite the contrary, I believe: They have led to ever-more-frozen hierarchies.  
The mainstream left is a technocratic elite, with a cult of science and expertise and an ear for the unanimous catchphrase. This is anything but a meritocracy; it an entrenched intergenerational class hierarchy.

----------


## Moondog55

This election is irrelevant really, we don't have any time left to fix the environment and reverse the shifting climate so most likely all 11 billion of us will be dead with-in the next 30 years and the cockroaches really will inherit the earth

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## toooldforthis

one of the better shows on TV *You can't ask that* is on ABC tonight   

> What is it actually like to put your hand up, be elected and serve the nation in the House of Representatives or the Senate? Eight former politicians go off-script and share their candid opinions

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## SilentButDeadly

> This election is irrelevant really, we don't have any time left to fix the environment and reverse the shifting climate so most likely all 11 billion of us will be dead with-in the next 30 years and the cockroaches really will inherit the earth

  You say that like you think it's a bad thing! 
Actually...the result is quite relevant because it comes down to which mob are going to attempt to build resilience for the benefit of today's youth and those under 30 (I have skin in this game) and which mob are going to attempt to ride their parents and grandparents into the sunset...(I have skin in this game too) 
I haven't figured out which mob are doing what yet but then I don't really have to...I make no impact on the Lower House.

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## phild01

> I make no impact on the Lower House.

  Same here.

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## Moondog55

Sad truth is even the Greens are dodging the real issue in this election, that is whether the human race as a species has a future or not. Jobs mean nothing if we don't have air to clean breathe or clean water to drink

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## SilentButDeadly

> Sad truth is even the Greens are dodging the real issue in this election, that is whether the human race as a species has a future or not. Jobs mean nothing if we don't have air to clean breathe or clean water to drink

  Yeah but that's in the future...jobs are now. Apparently. Though it appears superannuation (or not) will win this election.

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## Moondog55

> Yeah but that's in the future...jobs are now. Apparently. Though it appears superannuation (or not) will win this election.

  That future can be seen by 15 and 16 year old kids and by any of us with grandkids and it scares the @@@@ out of me.

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## sol381

Seems the go to line for any politician is jobs, jobs, jobs. Last time i checked unemployment was 5%. so 95% of people who can work do.. The number of pensioners or retirees who no longer work must be at least 20% of adults. They dont care about jobs. Im sure there are lots of adults who are able to work dont care about work. So basically about 3% are looking for work even tho there are 10s of thousands of jobs listed that arent filled. Either way governments dont create and never had created jobs apart form useless positions in the public secter.. Ive employed 2 guys fulltime in the last 2 years and had nothing to do with government. Most companies or small businesses who employ people do so because of their hard work , not government assistance.
How about stop worrying about the 2-3% of unemployed and help out the other 97% who actually pay taxes and add to society.
Anyway whoever wins it wont matter one bit.. We will all wake up the next day and not a thing will change. Politicians are too scared of maki9ng sweeping changes for fear of upsetting the swinging voter and lose their precious job and entitlements.Every single politician is just out for themselves and if they say they are here to help Australia or its people its a blatant lie.
I guarantee that if either the libs or labour was in power entirely on their own  for the last 30 years we would all be in exactly the same position we are now. Politicians need to stop wasting money and act as if it is their own finances they are managing. Maybe then we might have  a major surplus and use the money where its most needed.

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## phild01

> I guarantee that if either the libs or labour was in power entirely on their own for the last 30 years we would all be in exactly the same position we are now. Politicians need to stop wasting money and act as if it is their own finances they are managing. .

  Sol, agree with your sentiment but not the assessment. We have and still have medicare because of Labour, and economic strength is maintained by the Libs. Remove one of these parties and things will be different, Putin's model of corruption comes to mind.

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## Marc

> That future can be seen by 15 and 16 year old kids and by any of us with grandkids and it scares the @@@@ out of me.

  What a nonsense statement. Sorry Moondog but the kids that you see on TV appealing to take action for so called Global Warming don't *see* a thing, they just parrot what the watermelon teachers have indoctrinated into them. If anything it is an indictment of our education system that allows teachers to use children to advance their extremist ideas. 
The only thing you should be worried about is a future with an extremist green or labor government and plans for 100% renewables that will push us back to the middle ages. 
Kids can not _see_ that because they have been told different. They have been scared stiff by teachers telling them that the world is ending in 10 years. Any normal person can _see_ that such equates to child abuse and should be illegal and the teachers sacked. 
Extremist doctrine has no place in schools yet politicians also benefit from this global nonsense and ex politicians and their families change ship to profit economically immensely from this trend.
Normal adults should be able to _ see_ this.
I personally see similarities between manufacturing solar and wind equipment to manufacturing drugs. That is, you make something you know pollutes more and sends countries bankrupt, only to satisfy a collective delusion you know it will make you tons of money for no real benefit. 
May as well refine cocaine.

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## Moondog55

You are so wrong Marc. These kids are smarter than you are and know how to read a graph and interpret statistics. Sad to say its short sighted persons such as your self that have helped create the mess we have at the moment

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## PhilT2

> Seems the go to line for any politician is jobs, jobs, jobs. Last time i checked unemployment was 5%. so 95% of people who can work do.. The number of pensioners or retirees who no longer work must be at least 20% of adults. They dont care about jobs. Im sure there are lots of adults who are able to work dont care about work. So basically about 3% are looking for work even tho there are 10s of thousands of jobs listed that arent filled. Either way governments dont create and never had created jobs apart form useless positions in the public secter.. Ive employed 2 guys fulltime in the last 2 years and had nothing to do with government. Most companies or small businesses who employ people do so because of their hard work , not government assistance.
> How about stop worrying about the 2-3% of unemployed and help out the other 97% who actually pay taxes and add to society.
> Anyway whoever wins it wont matter one bit.. We will all wake up the next day and not a thing will change. Politicians are too scared of maki9ng sweeping changes for fear of upsetting the swinging voter and lose their precious job and entitlements.Every single politician is just out for themselves and if they say they are here to help Australia or its people its a blatant lie.
> I guarantee that if either the libs or labour was in power entirely on their own  for the last 30 years we would all be in exactly the same position we are now. Politicians need to stop wasting money and act as if it is their own finances they are managing. Maybe then we might have  a major surplus and use the money where its most needed.

  The real figures are about 10% unemployed and a further 10% underemployed, a total of about 2.5 million people chasing around 200,000 vacancies. These figures fluctuate a bit with seasonal variations but have been around the 18:1 ratio of job seekers to jobs for the last year or so.

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## Marc

> You are so wrong Marc. These kids are smarter than you are and know how to read a graph and interpret statistics. Sad to say its short sighted persons such as your self that have helped create the mess we have at the moment

  Nothing would please me more that starting another global warming thread, but to stay on topic, I will only say that you and me and our grandkids and all children and adults in the world only "know" what they have been told by others unless they are personally involved in research and are able to reach their own conclusions from unbiased direct observation, during a period of several decades, something that only a handful can claim. 
 And even then, this hypothetical researcher has his own baggage of values that will give him different degrees of bias anyway. 
The rest, make a choice based not on facts but on emotions, and after having made the choice of 'sides' based on unrelated values acquired before age 10, frantically look for support in this choice from others in the same boat. 
Fear, is a very useful tool to use and has been used for millennia by rulers and religions of all origins. Fear does not need logic and any irrational idea can be made rule if repeated often enough. 
If you do XYZ you go to hell. Want something more irrational than that? Yet billions believe it. 
Childrens are being used and abused by educators and politicians, and this is not right by any stretch of the imagination. Children must be children and any rational and responsible adult should have this very clear.

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## r3nov8or

> ... a total of about 2.5 million people *chasing* around 200,000 vacancies. ...

  Sadly, for much of that 2.5 mil, in certain geographies, I don't think there is much chasing going on... more sitting in the lounge like dad and granddad have always done...

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## PhilT2

> Sadly, for much of that 2.5 mil, in certain geographies, I don't think there is much chasing going on... more sitting in the lounge like dad and granddad have always done...

  Bear in mind that figure includes over one million that have some work but are seeking more hours. They are probably making little more than they would on welfare but choose to work so I think it is unfair to call them bludgers. The one million who are unemployed consists mainly of people between jobs who rely on welfare for only a short period of time. There is a hard core of long term unemployed and one of the big differences between left and right wingers is what they believe about how many are in that group and why they are there. Real data is not hard to find but it's easier to make up whatever fits with your beliefs.

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## DavoSyd

> I will only say that you and me and our grandkids and all children and adults in the world only "know" what they have been told by others unless they are personally involved in research and are able to reach their own conclusions from unbiased direct observation, during a period of several decades, something that only a handful can claim.

  not true.   

> The rest, make a choice based not on facts but on emotions, and after having made the choice of 'sides' based on unrelated values acquired before age 10, frantically look for support in this choice from others in the same boat.

  also not true. 
but if your comments represent your "world view", then providing evidence to the contrary is a Sisyphean errand...

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## r3nov8or

> Bear in mind that figure includes over one million that have some work but are seeking more hours. They are probably making little more than they would on welfare but choose to work so I think it is unfair to call them bludgers. ...

  OK. Emphasis added.   "Sadly, *for much of* that 2.5 mil, in certain geographies, I don't think there is much chasing going on... more sitting in the lounge like dad and granddad have always done..."

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## DavoSyd

Anton Green's "swing calculator" is interesting!!  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-...lator/10872122

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## toooldforthis

> The real figures are about 10% unemployed and a further 10% underemployed, a total of about 2.5 million people chasing around 200,000 vacancies. These figures fluctuate a bit with seasonal variations but have been around the 18:1 ratio of job seekers to jobs for the last year or so.

   

> Bear in mind that figure includes over one million that have some work but are seeking more hours. They are probably making little more than they would on welfare but choose to work so I think it is unfair to call them bludgers. The one million who are unemployed consists mainly of people between jobs who rely on welfare for only a short period of time. There is a hard core of long term unemployed and one of the big differences between left and right wingers is what they believe about how many are in that group and why they are there. Real data is not hard to find but it's easier to make up whatever fits with your beliefs.

  well said
I was just going to come and post similar 
just to add, for ABS unemployment stats you only have to work 1 hr in the last week to be counted as employed.
underemployment, and therefore lack of income is the issue for a lot.

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## PhilT2

> Anton Green's "swing calculator" is interesting!!  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-...lator/10872122

  The problem with that calculator is that it assumes the swing will apply evenly across all seats. That won't happen. The swing against Abbott may be up to 10% but I think he'll be safe. Peter Dutton holds his seat by only1.5% but he may survive also. Pity as the Libs would be a better opposition without them.

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## DavoSyd

> The problem with that calculator is that it assumes the swing will apply evenly across all seats. That won't happen. The swing against Abbott may be up to 10% but I think he'll be safe. Peter Dutton holds his seat by only1.5% but he may survive also. Pity as the Libs would be a better opposition without them.

  yeah, you can adjust swing % on a state by state basis, but not seats...

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## PhilT2

Local govt elections will be coming up for Logan City shortly as the state govt has just sacked them all. The mayor, who already faced charges of perjury and corruption, crashed his car last night and returned a reading of .139 when tested. Upstanding member of the local church.....  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-...nment/11065408

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## r3nov8or

> Local govt elections will be coming up for Logan City shortly as the state govt has just sacked them all.

  Similar happened in Geelong, but the state govt appointed adminstrators which lasted years. I don't recall any charges being laid but the whole council was a dysfunctional mess and was sacked. Darryn Lyons (paparazzo and entrepreneur) was the Mayor at the time and was our second (and last) directly elected Mayor, receiving almost 30% of the first-preference vote from a field of over 15. Democracy at work.

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## PhilT2

> Similar happened in Geelong, but the state govt appointed adminstrators which lasted years. I don't recall any charges being laid but the whole council was a dysfunctional mess and was sacked. Darryn Lyons (paparazzo and entrepreneur) was the Mayor at the time and was our second (and last) directly elected Mayor, receiving almost 30% of the first-preference vote from a field of over 15. Democracy at work.

  Just checked the link and it looks like we will be getting an administrator too; hopefully only until the next local govt elections early next year. Seems the trouble started when the council hired a new CEO, a lady who had been with the Victorian Anti-Corruption commission. She raised some issues about expenses so they sacked her. It all went rapidly downhill from there.

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## phild01

Wonder when it will be Gold Coast Tom Tate's turn!

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## Bros

> Wonder when it will be Gold Coast Tom Tate's turn!

  He was investigated and came up clean.

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## phild01

Slippery bugger!

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## sol381

> Sol, agree with your sentiment but not the assessment. We have and still have medicare because of Labour, and economic strength is maintained by the Libs. Remove one of these parties and things will be different, Putin's model of corruption comes to mind.

  I wish we had a leader like Putin.. Not afraid to speak his mind.  Puts his people first and doesnt care if he offends any monirity.

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## Marc

> not true.
> also not true.
> but if your comments represent your "world view", then providing evidence to the contrary is a Sisyphean errand...

  There is a ton of literature about how knowledge is acquired and the reason we make the choices we do. No point debating this since it is old hat and a well known mechanism. 
I understand that it can be uncomfortable for some to realise they had no say in the choices they make as adults, but that is just tough. 
And that is why electoral campaigns only target an undecided minority since the majority is stuck in their choice due to the overwhelming power of the values or anti-values that govern their lives.
Labor campaign appeals to one well known anti-value: Rich are evil and poor are virtuous. No point reasoning on this topic, just as there is no point in arguing on the concept that the sinner will go to hell.

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## PhilT2

> I wish we had a leader like Putin.. Not afraid to speak his mind.  Puts his people first and doesnt care if he offends any monirity.

  The families of the 38 Australians on MH17 may not share that view

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## Bros

> Seems the trouble started when the council hired a new CEO, a lady who had been with the Victorian Anti-Corruption commission. She raised some issues about expenses so they sacked her. It all went rapidly downhill from there.

  And they were too stupid to see what would happen. 
The temptation for all politicians and those in positions of influence to do favours for mates for some consideration must be great.

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## Marc

Typical appeal to emotions rather than debate with logic. 
I wonder when the words ... "schools and hospitals" and "our children" will come up

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## DavoSyd

> The families of the 38 Australians on MH17 may not share that view

  surely sol381 was joking? for all that is good let him be joking!

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## John2b

> There is a ton of literature about how knowledge is acquired and the reason we make the choices we do.

  Correct. That body of knowledge (lets call it a consensus) succinctly explains why humanity continues to do the things that have brought civilisation to where it is now despite the bleeding obvious. Doing more of the same is not going to change the the outcomes that are a consequence of past and current behaviour.

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## Bros

> There is a ton of literature about how knowledge is acquired and the reason we make the choices we do. No point debating this since it is old hat and a well known mechanism.

  I dont know the literature you are referring to but it would be dated nowdays with the rise and rise of social media. 
Look at all the politicians that have been caught by this latest phenomena and cameras are now everywhere is the hands of the common people. 
The younger generation would never watch current affairs on TV and would never be interested in their future and get their information from the likes of Facebook. 
I can say I was the same as when I joined super when I was in my 20's I thought it was a waste of time but as it didnt cost much I joined and retirement was for old people, all I was interested in was fishing, family and work. With this in mind the younger generation is only interested in the short term.

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## SilentButDeadly

> I dont know the literature you are referring to but it would be dated nowdays with the rise and rise of social media. 
> Look at all the politicians that have been caught by this latest phenomena and cameras are now everywhere is the hands of the common people. 
> The younger generation would never watch current affairs on TV and would never be interested in their future and get their information from the likes of Facebook. 
> I can say I was the same as when I joined super when I was in my 20's I thought it was a waste of time but as it didnt cost much I joined and retirement was for old people, all I was interested in was fishing, family and work. With this in mind the younger generation is only interested in the short term.

  There's coverage of current affairs on TV? Really? I thought they stopped doing that decades ago as part of the transition to reality programming. 
Maybe I should start watching TV again...

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## John2b

> The younger generation would never watch current affairs on TV and would never be interested in their future and get their information from the likes of Facebook.

  That is completely at odds the younger generation families I know. Yes, they are influenced by social media in addition to traditional channels, but no they are not sucked in by false news from either. In fact they use social media to try to promote evidence based values. Guess it all depends on how wide your social circle is.

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## John2b

> Maybe I should start watching TV again...

   No

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## sol381

> surely sol381 was joking? for all that is good let him be joking!

  No i wasnt joking.. give me a leader.. Not these softcocks like shorten and Morrison or any politician in the last 20 years who is all talk and no action.. afraid to say or do anything for fear of offending anyone. In no way would i condone shooting down a plane even though it is yet to be proven putin himself had anything to do with it.. That being said we need someone to stand up for the working class australians who add to society and not the wingy minorites who the pollies all seem to pander to.

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## Bros

> There's coverage of current affairs on TV? Really? I thought they stopped doing that decades ago as part of the transition to reality programming. 
> Maybe I should start watching TV again...

  Where does you information come from?  
Is it Alan Jones and his ilk or is it Facebook or other social media(all true what you read there) or Internet forums (all true there as well) or do you read the Betoota Advocate.

----------


## Marc

> I don't know the literature you are referring to but it would be dated nowadays with the rise and rise of social media.

  Perhaps I should have been more specific. 
It does not matter the method used to transmit an idea. All it matters is who delivers the idea and who receives it and at what stage in life. 
The next important thing is the values already adopted by the receiver, that may conflict or validate the concept imparted. 
If newspaper, teacher, book, TV, radio, facebook or twitter is irrelevant.
The same rules applied to the brains of the early Romans, than to the brains of teenagers that make a spectacle of themselves on TV or those who held up severed heads with a smile. 
There is no evidence that the brain has changed the way it operates or the rules it goes by to sort and select information nor the way it uses it to make decisions.
The changes in behaviour observed throughout history are only changes in culture, and variations in values that determine what actions are acceptable or desirable to advance a cause. No change are observed in the brain processes.

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## John2b

> All it matters is who delivers the idea and who receives it and at what stage in life.

  everyone is susceptible to influence - you, me and everyone else, Marc, but some people have greater self-awareness of external influence than others.

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## phild01

> In no way would i condone shooting down a plane even though it is yet to be proven putin himself had anything to do with it.. .

  He knows about it and would be resident to the Novichok attacks.  He is a murderous criminal who only cares about his image and looking after his cronies and having weapons of massive destruction.  He would also have some close relationship with Kim Jong-un and the development of his nuclear weaponry. I wouldn't want a criminal like him dictating our way of life.

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## Marc

> everyone is susceptible to influence - you, me and everyone else, Marc, but some people have greater self-awareness of external influence than others.

   Sure, I was just trying to explain what makes us choose sides so to speak.
Most folks when confronted with the question, will usually become defensive. And the reason is that they themselves do not know why they have made such decision or if they believe they know, most likely the reason is a different one, and there are other more compelling reasons then the one that are acceptable for him at a conscious level, and the real reason may not be that comfortable.  
I made this point many times in my life to larger audiences than this forum and I am well aware of the standard replies to expect. There are no right or wrong answers, only thing that matters is the awareness of the mechanism used by our brain to decide. It is the values stored in our brain that are used as measure and standard most of the time without our conscious knowledge. Furthermore those values that decide the direction of our lives every day may not even be of our choosing, in fact they hardly ever are a conscious choice ... unless ... someone makes us aware of this facts and we find a way to replace the values that do not serve us, for others that do.  
It may sound far fetched but this is at the core of how the voter decides his vote, even for the voter that is apathetic and does not care at all.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Where does you information come from?  
> Is it Alan Jones and his ilk or is it Facebook or other social media(all true what you read there) or Internet forums (all true there as well) or do you read the Betoota Advocate.

  Information? You mean like news and stuff? Local ABC Radio, Triple J, local paper, The Land, New Scientist magazine and the ABC News app. Oh and small town gossip.

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## toooldforthis

> one of the better shows on TV *You can't ask that* is on ABC tonight

  well, that was  a waste of time/disappointing.
guess once a narcissist always a narcissist.

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## John2b

I sometimes force myself to read Vanstone's newspaper articles about politics. It is about as pleasant as cleaning up someone else's baby spew and usually no more informative.

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## DavoSyd

from the Guardian:   

> So who has been disendorsed/resigned since this election was called?  I could have missed some people here, but by my count:  *Jeremy Hearn* –Liberal – Islamophobia *Steve Dickson* – One Nation – being Steve Dickson in a strip club *Peter Killin* – Liberal – homophobic comments, including comments about colleague Tim Wilson *Melissa Parke* – Labor – comments that Israel’s treatment of Palestinians was “worse than the South African system of apartheid” *Wayne Kurnoth* – Labor – antisemitic comments *Jessica Whelan* – Liberal – Islamophobia *Murray Angus –* Liberal – officially “breaking party rules”, for saying he had no bad things to say about the candidate he was challenging, Richard Marles. So, unofficially, for being too nice *Luke Creasey –* Labor – lewd comments on social media, made in 2012

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## Bros

> Information? You mean like news and stuff? Local ABC Radio, Triple J, local paper, The Land, New Scientist magazine and the ABC News app. Oh and small town gossip.

  Like your choice but I would drop Triple J and add ABC on line, ABC news and 7:30 report plus 4 Corners, Landline and The Buisness. 
Sorry Marc they are slightly left of centre.

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## toooldforthis

> Like your choice but I would drop Triple J and add ABC on line, ABC news and 7:30 report plus 4 Corners, Landline and The Buisness. 
> Sorry Marc they are slightly left of centre.

  you need to get  out more  :Smilie: 
know yr enemy and all that. 
but for LoC here is one of the better  journalists: https://www.michaelwest.com.au/

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## Marc

The "leaders" debate is painful to watch. I lasted 6 minutes. 
Best definition is ... and advance auction of stolen goods. 
Would like to stuff a handful of chillies in the presenters mouth.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Like your choice but I would drop Triple J and add ABC on line, ABC news and 7:30 report plus 4 Corners, Landline and The Buisness. 
> Sorry Marc they are slightly left of centre.

  That would involve wasting my nights in front of the TV!! I've got family to talk to and books to read! 
The ABC News app is basically ABC Online and can be tuned to provide content from all the ABC programs you mention... handy.

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## Marc

https://youtu.be/3UP8PXAA9tE

----------


## Marc

https://youtu.be/l541tGpxMj0

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## John2b

A people movement not allowed to push an agenda, but a billionaire is?

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## Marc

Rich is evil ... poor is virtuous. 
The consolation of the masses.

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## Bros

> https://youtu.be/l541tGpxMj0

  Where's my application form?

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## John2b

Thanks for the video links Marc, I had no idea what a buffoon Maurice Newman is until I watched these  :Biggrin:

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## John2b

For the sake of balance, here's another video. Language Warning!  https://www.facebook.com/thejuicemed...0231673792280/

----------


## Bedford

> For the sake of balance, here's another video. Language Warning!  https://www.facebook.com/thejuicemed...0231673792280/

  You always were a class act John.................

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## phild01

> https://youtu.be/l541tGpxMj0

  Thanks for that one, confirms what I thought.

----------


## phild01

> For the sake of balance, here's another video. Language Warning!  https://www.facebook.com/thejuicemed...0231673792280/

  10 secs of that crap was enough! Geeze John, does that set the mood of your feelings.

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## phild01

I would like to see Abbott ousted but not by a Getup candidate.

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## John2b

> 10 secs of that crap was enough! Geeze John, does that set the mood of your feelings.

   I said it was for balance. There is more than a little irony that Maurice Newman, who is bagging GetUp in those videos above, is a member of The Mont Pelerin Society since 1975, a worldwide organisation with links to neoliberal think tanks in many countries (e.g. The Centre for Independent Studies in Australia of which Newman has been an Executive board member), in the same model as GetUp. The purpose of this group is - wait for it - to influence public opinion and sway government decisions in favour of neoliberal philosophies, you know, the ideas that have moved 50% of the world's wealth to 1% of wealthy people in just a few decades. No wonder there is now a broad-spectrum public groundswell for more equitable societies around the world reflected in organisations like GetUp. The link below is for US data, we lag a little behind in Australia. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...nequality.html

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## chrisp

> For the sake of balance, here's another video. Language Warning!  https://www.facebook.com/thejuicemed...0231673792280/

  Balance??? The videos that Marc posted are drumming up support for Get-Up and their anti-ultra-rightwing agenda, and you have posted a parody of the LNP. Where is the balance?    :Smilie:

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## Marc

> The videos that Marc posted are drumming up support for Get-Up ...

   :Shock:  Really Chris !!  :Yikes2:

----------


## Bros

> I would like to see Abbott ousted but not by a Getup candidate.

  
And Dutton.

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## PhilT2

> Where's my application form?

  Get me one too; and an address so I can send them some money. And that secret agenda of theirs, is that the one that is up on their website?

----------


## Moondog55

> Balance??? The videos that Marc posted are drumming up support for Get-Up and their anti-ultra-rightwing agenda, and you have posted a parody of the LNP. Where is the balance?

   Well to be honest the whole LNP is a parody of what Liberal used to mean

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Well to be honest the whole LNP is a parody of what Liberal used to mean

  Truth! Mind you, Labor has doesn't have much to do with what Labor used to mean either. And the Greens were never really green (much dissatisfaction from me). 
I'd happily vote for a United Australia candidate if Clive Palmer spent the entire last week of the campaign dressed solely in a yellow spandex body suit. 
Otherwise...

----------


## r3nov8or

> I'd happily vote for a United Australia candidate if Clive Palmer spent the entire last week of the campaign dressed solely in a yellow spandex body suit. 
> Otherwise...

  You win the internet for a day  :Smilie:

----------


## johnc

> You win the internet for a day

  I disagree, with that mental image he just broke the internet for a day.

----------


## chrisp

Speaking of betting odds... https://www.theage.com.au/federal-el...08-p51lar.html 
The interestingly thing about betting odds compared to opinion polls, is that with betting the punter is actually putting their own money down on their opinion.

----------


## Marc

The tears of BS were pathetic and his explanation even more pathetic. 
It was OK for him to use his mother's story to appeal to the masses, even when he left out the fact that his mother did become a solicitor later in life. Leaving that part of the story of mum's self sacrifice out, was dishonest and he was caught out. Playing the victim was the only strategy left to save face. A bit like the "bullying" story from that lady resigning from parliament, and all the other BS stories that are used for that purpose.  
No mention of the attacks on Tony Abbott and the anti semitic attacks on the others. 
Just tears from the "victim"

----------


## Bros

> No mention of the attacks on Tony Abbott

  Abbott got all he deserved as he was the king of the bullies.

----------


## Bros

> Speaking of betting odds... https://www.theage.com.au/federal-el...08-p51lar.html 
> The interestingly thing about betting odds compared to opinion polls, is that with betting the punter is actually putting their own money down on their opinion.

  In cricket it is illegal to bet against yourself, I wonder if he was liberal or labour voter?

----------


## chrisp

> In cricket it is illegal to bet against yourself, I wonder if he was liberal or labour voter?

  I thought that it could be Marc having a bet each way!  :Smilie:

----------


## Bros

> I thought that it could be Marc having a bet each way!

  I thought the same but I didn’t think he would risk his money

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> The tears of BS were pathetic and his explanation even more pathetic. 
> It was OK for him to use his mother's story to appeal to the masses, even when he left out the fact that his mother did become a solicitor later in life. Leaving that part of the story of mum's self sacrifice out, was dishonest and he was caught out. Playing the victim was the only strategy left to save face. A bit like the "bullying" story from that lady resigning from parliament, and all the other BS stories that are used for that purpose.  
> No mention of the attacks on Tony Abbott and the anti semitic attacks on the others. 
> Just tears from the "victim"

  Imagine if you couldn't get what you wanted for twenty years because of 'circumstances' or better still, devotion to duty.  
Just because you get where you wanted to go after twenty years doesn't diminish what happened on the way...for anyone. 
Even you.

----------


## phild01

What irks me are the celebrity politicians who only enter politics by invitation rather than their true political desire...puppets.

----------


## John2b

> What irks me are the celebrity politicians who only enter politics by invitation rather than their true political desire...puppets.

  Who do you put in that group?

----------


## phild01

> Who do you put in that group?

  I like her but Zali Steggall would be one such candidate.

----------


## Bros

> Who do you put in that group?

  You could also add Warren Mundine, Peter Garrett as well I’m sure there are more.

----------


## phild01

...Dawn Fraser, Nova Peris, John Alexander, Kirstie Marshall...
Zali was being helped by Getup and Turnbulls but stands as an independent. Sneaky business.

----------


## John2b

> I like her but Zali Steggall would be one such candidate.

  I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand your reasons. Zali has considerable experience participating in managing and governing bodies, both here and internationally. She also received an Order of Australia Medal for her work in sports and charity organisations, and she was born and lives in the electorate for which she is standing. Why isn't she qualified to stand for parliament? And what's the alternative - only allow career politicians?

----------


## phild01

> I'm not disagreeing, just trying to understand your reasons. Zali has considerable experience participating in managing and governing bodies, both here and internationally. She also received an Order of Australia Medal for her work in sports and charity organisations, and she was born and lives in the electorate for which she is standing. Why isn't she qualified to stand for parliament? And what's the alternative - only allow career politicians?

  Quite simply, she wouldn't be bothered if it wasn't for the influential people with an agenda.

----------


## Moondog55

At least Zali Steggal isn't a nasty like Abbott and she has real world experience with the devastating effects of climate change and unlike some others isn't a religious zealot.

----------


## Marc

It does not matter who is in parliament. The only thing that matters is why. 
If they are in parliament to use their acquired skills to benefit the nation, all is good.
If they have a secret pet hate they want to let loose and tell me how I must live my life, they have something else coming.  
Give us fast trains, dams and plenty of nuclear and coal generators.
Stay away from children at school and their gender. 
Let the people vote over who and how many people come into this country and the qualifications required. 
Stop telling us that you ( the government) will "give us" this or that. Be honest and say that this group will pay for this benefit, and this other group will contribute in this other way. 
Confiscating tax rebates and changing the goal post on super real estate or business is theft. Let us start taking politicians to court for stealing, using the corporate legislation that applies to CEOs

----------


## John2b

> Quite simply, she wouldn't be bothered if it wasn't for the influential people with an agenda.

   Is there any person who would be bother running for parliament if they didn't have an agenda or were influenced by someone or a group that does have an agenda? I think not, but perhaps someone can throw up some examples.

----------


## phild01

> Is there any person who would be bother running for parliament if they didn't have an agenda or were influenced by someone or a group that does have an agenda? I think not, but perhaps someone can throw up some examples.

  You missed my point John.  The people who groom and facilitate an independent's stake in parliament use them for their agenda. As for Zali, it is Turnbull's revenge on Abbott.  Like he did with Kerryn Phelps.  (Turnbull was a fake politician who just wanted to be PM no matter how he did it).

----------


## John2b

Phild01 I did miss your point because it is far from obvious to me that Zali is/was being groomed, and even after you have mentioned it I still struggle to see it. I do agree that Turnbull wanted to be PM no matter how (he spent a lot of his own money campaigning to achieve it) along with Abbott, ScoMo and Rudd. ScoMo made it blatantly absolutely obvious that his end game was to be Prime Minister a while ago during the period he was minister creating Operation Sovereign Borders.

----------


## DavoSyd

> And what's the alternative - only allow career politicians?

  asking the real questions!

----------


## DavoSyd

fascinating...

----------


## PhilT2

> I like her but Zali Steggall would be one such candidate.

  Do you know for sure that she was approached to run against Abbott? I know that the main parties do sometimes try to enlist personalities to stand as candidates for them but I don't know if this was the case here. I see her more as an opportunist who saw that Abbott was becoming less popular in the electorate and decided to see if she could capitalise on it. Once she put her name up as a candidate then Getup, the gay community, environmentalists, a few LNP members and millions of ordinary people who hate his guts would throw their support behind her. I don't really understand what is sneaky about that. 
Personally, I think he will survive and will continue to be a divisive influence in the party, stopping the LNP from being an effective opposition to a Shorten govt.

----------


## johnc

Zali doesn't seem to have been noticed by Getup prior to throwing her hat in the ring. They had been targetting Abbott and were certainly looking around for someone who may be likely to knock him off his political perch. Zali seems to be that person, not identified with the left instead with centrist views and climate friendly. She is the obvious choice out of the current field. Getup are not going to be standing there as nodding heads in any press releases she makes but they are certainly going to do what they can to undermine Abbotts chances and by default that will help Zali. We shouldn't go looking for conspiracies, political humans leak to much, the chance of getting past the LNP et al dirt machines, the press as well as disaffected people in the loop are to high to risk a behind the scene grooming process.

----------


## Marc

A Labor Government would offer free sex change procedures, establish a taxpayer-funded National Gender Centre to advocate on transgender issues and appoint a new Commissioner for Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status issues.    “A taxpayer-funded National Gender Centre that will “advocate and educate” is code for a large-scale extension of the radical “safe schools” program that was rolled out by state Labor Governments.” “And Labor also plans a review of official documents to include “non-binary” options – which is just  an extension of Tasmanian Labor and the Greens ridiculous legislation that removes gender from birth certificates.” “It’s right there in black in white. Bill Shorten needs to either reject his own policy or be honest with the Australian people.  And we’ve already seen during this campaign that Bill Shorten will say anything he thinks people wants to hear.  He’s only interested in becoming Prime Minister.” Labor’s radical gender policies are outlined in their National Platform Document “A Fair Go for all Australians” which was released last year. The document states: “This National Platform outlines Labor’s key policy priorities as we head into an election year. These policies were developed and articulated through the work of our Shadow Ministry and the National Policy Forum (NPF).” The manifesto is currently described on Labor’s website as “a clear statement of Labor’s beliefs, values and program for government. The document outlines the key priorities for Labor over the coming years.”

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> A Labor Government would offer free sex change procedures, establish a taxpayer-funded National Gender Centre to advocate on transgender issues and appoint a new Commissioner for Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity and Intersex Status issues.    A taxpayer-funded National Gender Centre that will advocate and educate is code for a large-scale extension of the radical safe schools program that was rolled out by state Labor Governments. And Labor also plans a review of official documents to include non-binary options  which is just  an extension of Tasmanian Labor and the Greens ridiculous legislation that removes gender from birth certificates. Its right there in black in white. Bill Shorten needs to either reject his own policy or be honest with the Australian people.  And weve already seen during this campaign that Bill Shorten will say anything he thinks people wants to hear.  Hes only interested in becoming Prime Minister. Labors radical gender policies are outlined in their National Platform Document A Fair Go for all Australians which was released last year. The document states: This National Platform outlines Labors key policy priorities as we head into an election year. These policies were developed and articulated through the work of our Shadow Ministry and the National Policy Forum (NPF). The manifesto is currently described on Labors website as a clear statement of Labors beliefs, values and program for government. The document outlines the key priorities for Labor over the coming years.

  Now in your own words...please explain to us a) why this is an important issue for you and b) why you think this is (or should be) an important issue for the rest of us to consider.

----------


## Marc

The trademark of a dictatorship is to impose ideas or principles or beliefs. 
This policy is geared to impose the idea of gender "fluidity". The key word is not the absurdity of the idea that defies any known school of psychology, but the "impose' bit.
If you read labor policies and green policies on their website, you would think you are reading a manifesto of the ruling party in North Korea, or Stalin Russia. 
Yet people vote Labor or green without even reading or even understanding the basics. 
Under the above described snippet of BS Labor, if a boy goes to the doctor saying he thinks he is a girl, and the doctor sends him to a psychologist, the doctor will be penalised (the nature of the penalty is not disclosed, probably burning at the stake) the reason?  Practising "gender conversion" yes, the (witch) doctor is daring to interfere with gender fluidity and instead of referring to a gender change clinic is attempting to "convert" the boy back to normality via the use of another witch doctor psychologist. This is anathema and must be punished.  
There are hundred of similar "out there" policy from the lunatic left and the rainbow labor that do not propose idiotic legislation but impose them, or attempt to, in good communist party rule fascion. 
Far from being incensed by the ideas, everyone should be interested in the method proposed.

----------


## Bros

> Yet people vote Labor or green without even reading or even understanding the basics.

  There is an old but true saying "governments lose election" so by default the opposition win. 
 Libs have only themselves to blame if they lose with their in fighting.

----------


## Moondog55

> The trademark of a dictatorship is to impose ideas or principles or beliefs.

  Yep That pretty much describes the last 5 years under the liberals and at the same time is a perfect description of the catholic church

----------


## Marc

https://youtu.be/3uQ0I9_oQVo

----------


## Uncle Bob

> Yep That pretty much describes the last 5 years under the liberals and at the same time is a perfect description of the catholic church

  Yeah, they're very similar. Both filled with old men out of touch with the real world that are just after our money. Both screw the vulnerable.

----------


## phild01

> https://youtu.be/3uQ0I9_oQVo

  On the news last night little school kids flocking around BS with a big cheer.  Now I wonder why the school system is so successful turning out Labour flavoured voting adults.  As a schoolkid long ago, the same happened in my schooling but I did like Gough.

----------


## DavoSyd

> Now I wonder why the school system is so successful turning out labour flavoured adults.

  education is the basis of productive labour...

----------


## r3nov8or

> Now I wonder why the school system is so successful turning out *Labor* flavoured voting adults.

  ? 
(I note DavoSyd changed case, Labour to labour, but think you meant Labor (the party))

----------


## phild01

> ? 
> (I note DavoSyd changed case, Labour to labour, but think you meant Labor (the party))

  No, he was under a misconception so I changed the case for clarification. When that party started, correct spelling was valued but somehow they lost the plot and later changed it to American spelling.

----------


## DavoSyd

> (I note DavoSyd changed case, Labour to labour, but think you meant Labor (the party))

  nah, I didn't change anything about what phild01 typed:

----------


## r3nov8or

> No, he was under a misconception so I changed the case for clarification.

  Didn't help!   

> When that party started, correct spelling was valued but somehow they lost the plot and later changed it to American spelling.

  Jeepers. We actually don't get to choose the spelling!

----------


## phild01

> Jeepers. We actually don't get to choose the spelling!

  Propa spellin pleese  :Cool: !

----------


## DavoSyd

> Propa spellin pleese !

  correct use of proper nouns would be sensible and avoid ambiguity...

----------


## sol381

Well my voting is done.. Nothing the idiots can do now to sway my vote... and by idiots in mean the politicians , not the fine upstanding educated folk we have on this forum.

----------


## Bros

> Well my voting is done.

  Did it last week. An interesting thing at our polling station was it was at a vacant shop and on the footpath at either end of the shop were two white chalk lines and the urgers could not go over these lines. We pulled up across the road and went straight in the urgers were on the footpath either end of the shop.
So we did out bit for the environment with no how to vote cards that end up in the bin.

----------


## Marc

What are the urgers?

----------


## Bros

> What are the urgers?

  Those urging you to vote for this party or that.

----------


## chrisp

> What are the urgers?

  Those people who hand out the ‘how to vote cards’ for those who can’t work out their own preferences!

----------


## Marc

Oh I see ... Had a ran in with one ultra zealot a few elections back. At a pre polling booth, the "boss" (local labor rusted on forever sitting doing nothing candidate) was ushering his parishioners in, and the 'urger' running the queue with the pamphlets, pushing them under everyone's chin, literally ... as I gestured not to want it leaning back to avoid the paper slapping me in the face, he took offence and rising his voice told me in no uncertain terms that I should take the paper unless I happen to be a liberal voter and that in that case he would understand, otherwise, what was I thinking and some more bla bla. I laughed and asked him if he was feeling ok or perhaps needed to take a rest.  :Rofl5:

----------


## Bedford

> Those people who hand out the ‘how to vote cards’ for those who can’t work out their own preferences!

  Nah, they're just people that like killing trees, to make paper "how to vote for their party" cards, who then tell you how good it is to recycle paper.

----------


## johnc

Seems wasteful to be handed a swag of paper so you can toss it into a bin five minutes later, I have refused the how to vote cards for years, I may vote 1 for my prefered candidate but that doesn't mean i have to follow their preference deals. Generally those handing stuff out are quite polite, some may be a bit pushier than others but quite a number of people seem to enter the polling booth without voting guides.

----------


## sol381

seems a hugs waste of paper..Just hang all the parties how to vote cards in each polling booth. the greens bloke handed me a paper and said if you dont use it return it to me and ill recycle it. Nice but i would hope all the paper was recycled.

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## r3nov8or

I just make a point of handing back the papers once I've voted. Simples

----------


## DavoSyd

I know all sides are guilty of propagandism, but how about Dutton sending these around his electorate:

----------


## r3nov8or

> I know all sides are guilty of propagandism, but how about Dutton sending these around his electorate:

    It's the devaluation we don't need   :Cool:

----------


## Marc

> I know all sides are guilty of propagandism, but how about Dutton sending these around his electorate:

  Oh wow ... that is a shocker! How dare he allude to a potential value loss! I would have pictured a funeral followed by the death duty assesors sharpening their pencils ... or the taxman confiscating pensioner's income ... but of course this only interest those who have some assets and some income. How to describe them ... privileged pigs,  yes, those who actually do something and achieve something.

----------


## Moondog55

Marc I do think you are confusing the Ultra rich with those who are merely moderately well off. Assets of a million dollars and an income of 60 to 80k per annum isn't rich but assets totaling in the billions and incomes of and exceeding 200million a year seems to qualify and my take on the tax plans was that people who are in that moderately well off bracket had very little to worry about. No CEO is worth a salary package in excess of $250M but if they get then tax the greedy barsturds into poverty I say

----------


## DavoSyd

> It's the devaluation we don't need

  it might be the devaluation you have when not really having a devaluation...  :Wink:     

> *Federal Treasury has scolded the Coalition for overstating the impact of Labor's negative gearing changes.*  
> Key points:
> The Labor Party wants to restrict negative gearing deductions
> The plan involves limiting the tax break to new investment properties
> The Coalition has claimed Labor's plan would "smash" housing values
> The revelation blunts the Government's attacks against the proposed overhaul of housing tax concessions.  
> The Australian Labor Party (ALP) wants to curb negative gearing deductions by limiting the tax break to new investment properties.  
> Since 2016, the Coalition has continued to claim the plan would "smash" housing values with a "sledgehammer".   But it can now be revealed Treasury explicitly told the Government it should not even claim home values "will" fall under the proposal.
> ...
> The Reserve Bank of Australia has previously said curbing negative gearing could be a good thing for financial stability.

----------


## Marc

> Marc I do think you are confusing the Ultra rich with those who are merely moderately well off. Assets of a million dollars and an income of 60 to 80k per annum isn't rich but assets totaling in the billions and incomes of and exceeding 200million a year seems to qualify and my take on the tax plans was that people who are in that moderately well off bracket had very little to worry about. No CEO is worth a salary package in excess of $250M but if they get then tax the greedy bastards into poverty I say

  Moon, no I am not confusing anything at all. 
However I understand that when using sarcasm, this sometimes can go astray.  
My very simple point is that the proposed confiscation of income from shares, blocking the claim of expenses from a legitimate business, charging tax for the death person's assets, and many more proposed outrageous assaults to private property and to people life savings, all available on labor and greens websites, are criminal yet ... only worry those who have something to lose, that is those who have done something of themselves even if it is just one modest rental property, or a small portfolio of shares that pay dividends.
Those who don't, are probably rubbing their hands with glee, thinking give it to them bastards.  
However you must consider that, when the people "just above average" I describe above will be the biggest losers in this proposed changes, those who are above them, have vast resources at their disposal to adapt to any hairbrained marxist change the morons can throw at them. The only loser will be the country, certainly not them.  
As for the ill related topic of CEO's salaries, and the value judgement of those who earn more than you or me, I have yet to encounter a person who in order to obtain a large income brings with him a gun to point at the board's head. Their salary is the product of supply and demand.  
It is large in order to entice them into the job. If it has the desired effect or not is for the said board and the members that vote to decide. Sometimes it is and others is it not. It is the nature of the structure of corporations and I applaud whoever is smart enough to sell himself at that level and succeed. Prosperity should be celebrated not berated. It is an infamous vice to berate others just because they are successful, or they earn more than ourselves.  
But that is only my opinion.

----------


## Moondog55

Well we can disagree on that Marc, I know of man7y share holders who are very angry at the absurd salaries being paid to non performing CEOs, but my only criteria for selecting who to vote for at this election is who can be a better environmental steward and best combat the current climate emergency, something you seem to not believe in yourself. Anybody earning 140 million dollars a year plus superannuation and bonuses can afford to pay more tax, a LOT more, although I agree that the rate in the 40's and 50's was a bit too high

----------


## phild01

> but my only criteria for selecting who to vote for at this election is who can be a better environmental steward and best combat the current climate emergency

  The outcome will make no difference to that.

----------


## Marc

Talking about the environment, and one real emergency, not the fabricated one about the so called climate change. 
Take the plastic waste that is accumulating in the oceans and waterways. 
You may think that it is all too difficult and that you must vote green for them to punish the bad rich and so save the planet.
However there is a much better, easier, cheap and low tech solution to the plastic invasion. One that does not include grand gestures, nor large return and earn schemes that cost a fortune and see the plastic end in the landfill anyway.
Yet no one talks about it. Too simple and cheap. And you can build it at home with scrap metal parts.  
Check for Pyrolysis, plastic to diesel.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGh7WMnwqsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ6Rv6hERfY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk_k18AOfCc 
And the point is that free market and private enterprise will eventually balance the scale and certainly not marxist punitive initiatives of the hateful and the envious.

----------


## DavoSyd

> but my only criteria for selecting who to vote for at this election is who can be a better environmental steward and best combat the current climate emergency

  vote BTL and help anyone who wants to but is unsure to do so too...

----------


## DavoSyd

examples include: https://www.finder.com.au/senate-voting-card-creator

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> vote BTL and help anyone who wants to but is unsure to do so too...

  That is my plan...mainly because I can't find enough parties ATL that I want to vote for that will make my Senate vote valid!! And I'll be able to piss off the Nationals by voting for Jim Moylan...without actually really  voting for either the Libs or the Nats.

----------


## Moondog55

Actually I was thinking about voting for the Pirate Party; because I like the cheek of the name

----------


## chrisp

> Actually I was thinking about voting for the Pirate Party; because I like the cheek of the name

  
I’ve heard that some in the Pirate Party might be one-eyed!  :Smilie:

----------


## Moondog55

> Talking about the environment, and one real emergency, not the fabricated one about the so called climate change. 
> Take the plastic waste that is accumulating in the oceans and waterways. 
> You may think that it is all too difficult and that you must vote green for them to punish the bad rich and so save the planet.
> However there is a much better, easier, cheap and low tech solution to the plastic invasion. One that does not include grand gestures, nor large return and earn schemes that cost a fortune and see the plastic end in the landfill anyway.
> Yet no one talks about it. Too simple and cheap. And you can build it at home with scrap metal parts.  
> Check for Pyrolysis, plastic to diesel.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGh7WMnwqsA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ6Rv6hERfY
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk_k18AOfCc  *And the point is that free market and private enterprise will eventually balance the scale and certainly not marxist punitive initiatives of the hateful and the envious*.

  Well except for that last bit I agree with you on that, I don't think we have the time for free market. I don't understand the reference to Marxism tho, what Labor has announced isn't even close to Marxist Communism, isn't punitive and has nothing to do with hate or envy; I see it simply as fear for my grandkids future. 
I would like to see the Nazis in the Liberal party lose their seats tho

----------


## phild01

Listened to dear Pauline this morning. She makes more sense than BS, that's for sure. She see's the adverse impact of neg gearing and believes that it should be kept for the ordinary people who have just one or two investment properties. 
The thing I don't understand is why no one is making a point of no capital gains tax for no negative gearing. They were both introduced around the same time and go hand in hand.  I think BS is a scumbag for keeping quiet about this one. BTW it doesn't affect me.

----------


## r3nov8or

> it might be the devaluation you have when not really having a devaluation...

  We will have to wait and see... And I'm not too sure that any party is taking the advice of "authoritative" bodies when deciding on the spin, what to say, what not to say...

----------


## DavoSyd

> And I'm not too sure that any party is taking the advice of "authoritative" bodies when deciding on the spin, what to say, what not to say...

  yes, so when   

> there is no legal requirement for the content of political advertising to be factually correct

  most people are basing their entire voting decision on outright lies...

----------


## phild01

Scott's messaging well on the National Press Club at the moment.

----------


## Whitey66

> I’ve heard that some in the Pirate Party might be one-eyed!

  Why are they called the Pirate Party?
Cause they Arrrrrrrrrrr

----------


## DavoSyd

> Scott's messaging well on the National Press Club at the moment.

  Bill's speaking well in Blacktown at the moment.   

> _I say to the women and men of Australia, vote Labor because we are the only party with the courage and the principles and the plan to take real action on climate action.__My fellow Australians, the door to a better, bolder, and more equal and exciting future stands ajar. Do we have the capacity to push through it?_ _The chance for a smarter, more progressive Australia is before us. The choice for Australia to be a leader in the world is ours to make and the power is in your hands._ _Stop the cuts. Vote for change. Vote Labor._ _End the chaos. Vote for change. Vote Labor._ _Bring back the fair go. Vote for change. Vote for Labor._ _Reject the habits and the fears of the past and step up to the demands and opportunities of our future._ _Vote for change. Vote Labor!_ _And for the health of or environment, for the qualities of our lives, for the ambitions of our children, vote for change._ _Vote Labor!_

----------


## DavoSyd

Bill Shorten:   

> And, friends, go forth from here and tell people you’re voting Labor so you can look at your children and your grandchildren - look them in the eye - and say, “We fought for a better environment so that years from now you can tell them that you didn’t fall for the fear campaign. You didn’t capitulate to the deniers and the delayers. Here we have a chance for you to be able to say that when the moment beckoned, when the time came and the decision was ours, this generation of Australians - this generation of parents, this generation of voters - tell them that we decided to do the responsible thing for the environment, that we did the smart thing for our economy, and we did the right thing for our future generations.

----------


## DavoSyd

> Why are they called the Pirate Party?
> Cause they Arrrrrrrrrrr

  https://pirateparty.org.au/candidates/ 
i guess looking like a pirate wasn't a compulsory prerequisite for running as a candidate?! (at least for most)

----------


## r3nov8or

> _And, friends, go forth from here_

  Jeepers. What century is it?

----------


## Moondog55

> Jeepers. What century is it?

  But they did orate well in the 18th didn't they.
If the Pirate party win any seats will they legislate for compulsory eye patches?

----------


## Marc

_BS    
			
				tell them that we decided to do the responsible thing for the environment, that we did the smart thing for our economy, and we did the right thing for our future generations.
			
		  _ Translated means ... we used the pretense of the environment, knowing we will do nothing for it, in order to gain power and impose our manifesto of social engineering to enlist the rainbow warriors, open borders to allow more free loaders who will vote labor, tax the hell out of the population in order to pretend largess, confiscate from the productive to give to the unproductive. Future generations will mop up the mess and ask their parents ... what did you have to drink when you voted labor? 
Your answer will be ... Oh ... we wanted to save the planet ... 
Wake up, the planet does not need saving, and BS will say anything to get to power. He screwed the workers when he was in the union, founded Get Up, and would give free marijuana to primary schools if there was votes in it.

----------


## DavoSyd

well, it's been called folks...

----------


## Whitey66

> well, it's been called folks...

  That is very scarey  :Help:

----------


## r3nov8or

:Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   https://www.facebook.com/49384278925...7229208363926/ 
Just about sums it up...

----------


## phild01

> https://www.facebook.com/49384278925...7229208363926/ 
> Just about sums it up...

  Can't view!!

----------


## DavoSyd

and some sad news now...  https://www.theguardian.com/australi...lling-coverage

----------


## Uncle Bob

Damn  :Frown:

----------


## Moondog55

Well Yes but to quote Paul Hogan "Just another bloddy politician"

----------


## r3nov8or

> Can't view!!

  Hmm. Can't seem to find it anywhere else. You shouldn't need a FB account to view it...

----------


## phild01

> Hmm. Can't seem to find it anywhere else. You shouldn't need a FB account to view it...

  Ooops, my screen was filled with facebook login crap.  Managed to get most of it digging around the screen..

----------


## johnc

> and some sad news now...  https://www.theguardian.com/australi...lling-coverage

   A character we don't see very often, both deeply flawed and a visionary. He had that knack of bringing stakeholders together and thrashing out an outcome. He also knew how to use the advice of experts to form a judgement. Love him or hate him there was only one Bob

----------


## r3nov8or

... and how to chug a yard  :Smilie:  
Didn't like him much though. ACTU figures get to me

----------


## Moondog55

Sometimes the best thing an old retired politician can do for the country is a state funeral

----------


## chrisp

The 1983 federal election has to be one of the most memorable in my opinion. Bob Hawke was  an amazingly popular prime minster - IIRC, the most popular ever in Australia (at least for when popularity polls were conducted).  
I do yearn for another sharp witted, intellectual, prime minister.

----------


## pharmaboy2

> A character we don't see very often, both deeply flawed and a visionary. He had that knack of bringing stakeholders together and thrashing out an outcome. He also knew how to use the advice of experts to form a judgement. Love him or hate him there was only one Bob

  Why is it that today we’ve heard all the nice words and descriptions, but no one has mentioned the egotistical nature of the man and how his integrity was gone when called on to pass on the reigns to someone else? 
hes not alone in being a narcissistic @@@@@@@@ when push comes to shove, but seriously, why do the biggest mobs rise to the top?

----------


## r3nov8or

> I do yearn for another sharp witted, intellectual, prime minister.

  I think we have a long while to wait yet...

----------


## John2b

Last chance to hear what are the important issues before polling: https://www.facebook.com/abcmelbourn...4119414303025/

----------


## DavoSyd

:Repost:

----------


## r3nov8or

> Last chance to hear what are the important issues before polling: https://www.facebook.com/abcmelbourn...4119414303025/

  Hey. I posted that yesterday!!! 
Then Bob turned up his toes

----------


## John2b

Opps  :Cry:

----------


## sol381

> Listened to dear Pauline this morning. She makes more sense than BS, that's for sure. She see's the adverse impact of neg gearing and believes that it should be kept for the ordinary people who have just one or two investment properties. 
> The thing I don't understand is why no one is making a point of no capital gains tax for no negative gearing. They were both introduced around the same time and go hand in hand.  I think BS is a scumbag for keeping quiet about this one. BTW it doesn't affect me.

  Agree 100%.. if negative gearing goes so does capital gain on the sale. But im not sure why this is such a big deal..The money lost by the govt from Negative gearing is minuscule.  The amount of properties neg vs positive would be about even and the income derived and lost from both would be about the same.

----------


## Marc

> Agree 100%.. if negative gearing goes so does capital gain on the sale. But im not sure why this is such a big deal..The money lost by the govt from Negative gearing is minuscule.  The amount of properties neg vs positive would be about even and the income derived and lost from both would be about the same.

  You fail to see the reasons behind Labor policies. It is not for the best of the countries economy, or environment, or social justice. It is to pretend all those things. And the way to achieve it is by making up different imaginary boogeyman/women. The ultra rich are fleecing the poor worker so they deserve punishment by our savior BS. 
Even the concept of "keeping negative gearing for the one with one or two investment properties" is absurd and a stupid pretense considering the minuscule number of multi property investors in the market. Any business can write off losses, yet somehow properties are different. Why? Would we treat the single petrol station owner different from the multiple petrol stations owner? If so why?  
Social engineering is a pathetic tool used by politicians to be seen to care, whilst they are filling up their own private agenda. No point trying to find a vestige of logic behind their actions or pretenses.

----------


## Bros

At 8 PM tonight after the WA polls close do we just lock the thread or do we rename it and allow for the weeping and gnashing of teeth?

----------


## sol381

actually i don't even try to understand any parties policies.. So......when are going to throw your hat in the ring and run for a seat.

----------


## sol381

Well bros i doubt it will make much difference.. we will all wake up tomorrow and nothing will change as all of them will default on their promises and keep looking out for themselves.. At least we accept  whoever gets in.. Unlike Indonesia at the moment. On the brink of civil war.

----------


## doovalacky

Labor certainly lost my vote with the negative gearing changes. I've only started to make a loss due to all the increased utilities, land tax and interest rates while in my locations the rental market has dropped. 
I'm already providing a tenant with a house at below what it costs to hold what more do they want? Well in time the market will correct. Less rentals and the rent will go up. 
If they have not saved up and brought in today's low market with low rates they are certainly not going to do in future.

----------


## DavoSyd

where'd you get the sign made Clive?   
ahhh, right... master of irony eh?

----------


## PhilT2

> Labor certainly lost my vote with the negative gearing changes.

  Could you tell us which changes and how they affect your investment?

----------


## phild01

Grandfathering is a poor solution.  Now what about the capital gains tax!
Hawke introduced the neg gear and CGT thing, but BS won't emulate his wisdom.

----------


## Uncle Bob

Abbott is gone. Now for the Dutton the Anti-christ.

----------


## PhilT2

> Abbott is gone. Now for the Dutton the Anti-christ.

  Too early, Palmer preferences will save them both.

----------


## Uncle Bob

> Labor certainly lost my vote with the negative gearing changes.

  They were stupid announcing that and the franking cuts. i reckon they would've bolted in if they haven't.

----------


## Marc

Too early sure ... but so far so good. 
The best event of the day is Okshoddy giving his parishioners how to achieve a donkey vote. Only RO can do that with a straight face. Love it.

----------


## phild01

> They were stupid announcing that and the franking cuts. i reckon they would've bolted in if they haven't.

  That and not Shorten.

----------


## Whitey66

Sportsbet will be spewing, paid out early on Labor and now Labor is paying $8.00 and the Coalition $1.05 .

----------


## Marc

It seems that the attempt at Voodoo by Paul Keating failed and Peter Dutton has won his seat. Amazing. 
I hope never to hear Bill's BS ever again.
May be Albo will conduct a better race in 3 years time. A nightmare government has been averted to the credit of the voters.
Well done. 
I am sorry for Tony, but the scum of Get Up was too much. 
Just like the case with D Trump, the caffe latte left and rainbow media got it wrong, thinking they could hype each other and all was going to work their way.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

At least this way we can all go somewhere into the future indecisively...for a bit. Again.

----------


## Bros

> I am sorry for Tony, but the scum of Get Up was too much.

   I don’t think that sentimate will be shared by a lot of liberal MP

----------


## Marc

If you knew Tony as well as I do you will most likely share the same sentiment.

----------


## phild01

> I don’t think that sentimate will be shared by a lot of liberal MP

  ummm...Alex Turnbull's (Getup) last minute Robocalls! 
But happy to see 'captain's call' Abbott gone.  He was too much disrupting the party direction.

----------


## r3nov8or

> well, it's been called folks... Attachment 123276

  Oops

----------


## DavoSyd

> Oops

  those pesky polls!

----------


## chrisp

> those pesky polls!

  I wondered how the person who put down $1,000,000 on the election is feeling tonight? And, does anyone know if it was one of the bets that was paid out early?

----------


## DavoSyd

they had a market for "next opposition leader" Albanese was paying 9 bucks a couple of days ago... he's into 1.40 now!

----------


## Bros

> They were stupid announcing that and the franking cuts. i reckon they would've bolted in if they haven't.

  I have three friends who are self funded retirees and since the election was called I have been talking to them and they decided that the Franking Credits is what drove them to leave Labour none of them have negative gearing. 
Labour went out to destroy those people and the spillover didn't go well for them as the Libs were able to sow the seeds of more taxes. Someone in the ALP decided to appeal to another generation of voters with their social agenda but they slipped up. 
Be interesting to see when Shorten falls on his sword as he must do after losing the unloseable election.

----------


## DavoSyd

> I wondered how the person who put down $1,000,000 on the election is feeling tonight? And, does anyone know if it was one of the bets that was paid out early?

  nah, Ladbrokes took the million dollar bet...  
and BTW they didn't close betting on next government, so all bets laid since 16th were money for the house  :Wink:

----------


## r3nov8or

> they had a market for "next opposition leader" Albanese was paying 9 bucks a couple of days ago... he's into 1.40 now!

  (I've had a few beers watching the Bombers scare me then win tonight). If this means the end of manboobs BS, so be it

----------


## DavoSyd

> Oops

  update

----------


## r3nov8or

Good old Google today

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Good old Google today

  Clearly pandering to the Senate...

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> I have three friends who are self funded retirees and since the election was called I have been talking to them and they decided that the Franking Credits is what drove them to leave Labour none of them have negative gearing. 
> Labour went out to destroy those people and the spillover didn't go well for them as the Libs were able to sow the seeds of more taxes. Someone in the ALP decided to appeal to another generation of voters with their social agenda but they slipped up. 
> Be interesting to see when Shorten falls on his sword as he must do after losing the unloseable election.

  Demographics is a bitch...but old people inevitably die. And life goes on...

----------


## Marc

yesssssssssssss  :Smilie:

----------


## phild01

Shame BS didn't do it years ago.

----------


## Ozcar

The worst part is now, those very same "experts" who were telling us that Labor would win, will today be explaining to us exactly why they didn't.

----------


## sol381

their other job must be as weather forecasters.

----------


## sol381

This 2 party preferred rubbish i dont get.. Who actually thinks the party they dont vote for actually gets your vote.. What if you voted for greens just because you dont like the alp yet they still get your vote.. In my electorate of lilley the LNP are about 40% to alp 36%.. bit of a swing but Alp will probably claim the seat as 2 party preferred. Majority doesn't rule. Now i feel the ALP gets more votes being aligned with  the greens than the LNP does with palmer and one nation so in reality the majority of people, I think sop far only about 36% voted labour, yet  the ALP are still so close.. Hardly democrat  and i think are silly system as it doesnt reflect the voters true intentions. 
Just my views but seems sstrange  a party can gain power when they have a lower primary vote than their opponent. But thats politics for you and it seems thx to qld the right party will get in.

----------


## Bros

> Demographics is a bitch...but old people inevitably die. And life goes on...

  Yep but labour was to quick to bury them.

----------


## Marc

> This 2 party preferred rubbish i don't get.. Who actually thinks the party they dont vote for actually gets your vote.. What if you voted for greens just because you don't like the alp yet they still get your vote.. In my electorate of lilley the LNP are about 40% to alp 36%.. bit of a swing but Alp will probably claim the seat as 2 party preferred. Majority doesn't rule. Now i feel the ALP gets more votes being aligned with  the greens than the LNP does with palmer and one nation so in reality the majority of people, I think sop far only about 36% voted labour, yet  the ALP are still so close.. Hardly democrat  and i think are silly system as it doesn't reflect the voters true intentions. 
> Just my views but seems strange  a party can gain power when they have a lower primary vote than their opponent. But thats politics for you and it seems thx to qld the right party will get in.

  I believe that the preferential system of voting was adopted to represent a sparsely populated country and to deliver representation to all areas. It is obsolete today and need changing. And so is the term of 3 years.
The only way to assure that voter's intentions are met is by a second round of voting once all the votes are counted and give the voter a reduced number of choices. Not easy but common in many countries. 
One issue I hear over and over from people is the myth that politicians decide preferences when in fact it is the voter that does so for both houses by numbering in the order of his preference and not doing what the party suggests. 
It is true that this system forces the voter to place a number fo the party he does not want. Hardly democratic. 
If each party had a paper for themselves and the voter only had to choose one for each house, the majority would win every time and the voter secondary choices would disappear. Forcing everyone to vote for everyone pushes the lesser choices up unnecessarily producing a distorted political landscape. I was forced to vote green and labor and added to their numbers if only marginally, yet i would rather vote informal than vote for them.

----------


## Marc

> Demographics is a bitch...but old people inevitably die. And life goes on...

  If you think this result was due to older people you are mistaken. All the fake polls where the result of calling landlines. Who has a landlines? Not young people that's for sure.

----------


## Marc

> The worst part is now, those very same "experts" who were telling us that Labor would win, will today be explaining to us exactly why they didn't.

  Life is full of experts. Just listen to the experts telling us that last decade the sea was supposed to go up 9 meters and the rain stop and it should be 40C in winter, unless we spend trillions and go back to live in caves. 
There has always been snake oil merchants, the problem is when people listen to them rather than cover them with tar and feathers. 
Tony Abbot in his speech said something worth noting:  "Liberals do well in areas where "climate change" is an economic issue. Not so well in areas where it is a moral issue."
There is no point in talking politics to oppose a religious conviction. 
Meantime the ABC has a photo of both Morrison and Shorten, a video of the last ditch at preaching by BS and no video of Morrison excellent victory speech. 
I can't wait for the ABC budget to be cut in half and it's own code of alleged balance and support for the government of the day enforced

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> If you think this result was due to older people you are mistaken. All the fake polls where the result of calling landlines. Who has a landlines? Not young people that's for sure.

  There are more older people than younger people...at the moment. 
As for the polls...yep. Their methodology is becoming obsolete and non-representative because of their reliance on landlines. There's no way to fix that that doesn't involve massive additional costs in data collection...which no-one would be prepared to pay for.  
In the end, we voted and democracy won. Nothing much will change (clearly we Australians are fearful of it so it's probably for the best) and hopefully ScoMo becomes the first PM since Howard to actually make it all the way to the next election.  
In the meantime, roll on real life.

----------


## joynz

> Meantime the ABC has a photo of both Morrison and Shorten, a video of the last ditch at preaching by BS and no video of Morrison excellent victory speech. 
> I can't wait for the ABC budget to be cut in half and it's own code of alleged balance and support for the government of the day enforced

  Absolute rubbish  - the video is displayed prominently on the ABC online.  And it’s just been shown on Insiders and was on the ABC live blog from memory.

----------


## DavoSyd

> In the end, we voted and democracy won.

  democracy based on misleading and deceptive advertising? 
what would be easier to fix is the truth in advertising problem...   

> *Misleading or deceptive electoral advertisement and other communications**Q. Does the Electoral Act require truth in electoral advertising?*A. No.  The AEC has no role in regulating the political content of electoral advertising.  The AEC is responsible for ensuring, as far as possible, that electoral advertising does not mislead or deceive voters about the way in which they must cast their vote.  For example, how-to-vote cards should not advocate optional preferential voting, because, with limited exceptions, the Act clearly requires full preferential voting.  Incomplete ballot papers are informal and unable to be counted. *Q. What does section 329 of the Electoral Act cover?*A. Subsection 329(1) of the Electoral Act makes it an offence to print, publish or distribute, or cause, permit or authorise to be printed, published or distributed, any matter or thing that is likely to mislead or deceive an elector in relation to the casting of a vote.  Section 329 applies not only to printed matter but also to electoral advertisements broadcast on radio, television, the internet or by telephone.  Subsection 329(5) provides that in a prosecution of an offender, it is a defence if it is proved that the person did not know, and could not reasonably be expected to have known, that the matter or thing was likely to mislead an elector in relation to the casting of a vote.  The two leading court decisions on the scope of section 329 of the Electoral Act are in _Evans v Crichton-Browne_ (1981) 147 CLR 169 and _Peebles v Honourable Tony Burke_ [2010] FCA 838.  At paragraph 10 of the decision in the Peebles case the Court stated that: _“It is clear from reading the entire reasons for judgment of the High Court in Crichton-Browne that the prohibition in s 329 concerns misleading or deceptive conduct which might affect the process of casting a vote rather than the formation of the political judgment about how the vote will be cast. That is, the section concerns conduct which might, for example, lead a voter either to fail to record a valid vote or to record a valid vote but not for the candidate or candidates of the voter's choice. An obvious example would be information which told a voter how to go about completing the ballot paper which was wrong and would result in the casting of an informal vote.”_ Accordingly, the test that is applied by the AEC is examining a publication under section 329 is whether the publication merely goes towards the ‘formation of the judgment’ as to who to vote for, rather than the actual act of marking the ballot paper.  It is only the later type of publication that misleads a voter that is prohibited.  The AEC notes that the distinction between these two things is a question of fact and degree.

  https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/Pub...htm#misleading  
also: https://theconversation.com/election...ertising-57880 
and:  https://morningmail.org/labor-lies-2/

----------


## r3nov8or

> As for the polls...yep. Their methodology is becoming obsolete and non-representative because of their reliance on landlines. There's no way to fix that that doesn't involve massive additional costs in data collection...which no-one would be prepared to pay for.

  I got several poll calls on my mobile. The calling number began with 0488822. Made them easy to decline

----------


## PhilT2

> Their methodology is becoming obsolete and non-representative because of their reliance on landlines. There's no way to fix that that doesn't involve massive additional costs in data collection...which no-one would be prepared to pay for.

  Pollsters have been aware of this issue for years. I think the real problem is that some people, only a small percentage, change their mind at the last moment. Mobile carriers collect good data and sell it cheap. For example I can buy the mobile number of all females aged between 18-35 living in my suburb for a few dollars each.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> democracy based on misleading and deceptive advertising? 
> what would be easier to fix is the truth in advertising problem...    https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/Pub...htm#misleading  
> also: https://theconversation.com/election...ertising-57880 
> and:  https://morningmail.org/labor-lies-2/

  It's only deceptive if you take any notice of it. All advertising is manipulative or deceptive in some way, shape or form. It is just how it is...

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Pollsters have been aware of this issue for years. I think the real problem is that some people, only a small percentage, change their mind at the last moment. Mobile carriers collect good data and sell it cheap. For example I can buy the mobile number of all females aged between 18-35 living in my suburb for a few dollars each.

  And yet the White Pages are free... 
The thing is though...why do the poll results matter for the average Joe or Josephine?

----------


## Marc

> .... In the end, we voted and democracy won. Nothing much will change (clearly we Australians are fearful of it so it's probably for the best) and hopefully ScoMo becomes the first PM since Howard to actually make it all the way to the next election.  
> In the meantime, roll on real life.

  Agreed. 
As I have probably told you already, despite being just outside Sydney, I get regional TV due to being in a black spot. No mobile coverage and no tv and not internet, so we get it all via the regional satellite. Advantage I get amused by NT and North Queensland ads, disadvantage, I have a dozen of different versions of the ABC. 
So I resign myself to listen to their comments about the massive Labor defeat.
The comments summarise all that is wrong with the left in Australia and probably the world.  
The loss is ... according to them, the result of 
"a pocket of disengaged voters who are sick of politics and wanted it over and done" ; 
Not having "explained" properly the wonderful policies in the Labor portfolio ; 
The money spent by the overweight devil incarnated aka  C Palmer ;  
Too many old people clinging to the past ... and it goes on and on ... may be someone will find that the Russians helped Morrison? 
Starting with the pathetic and way too long discourse by BS that rather to accept he made a number of massive mistakes, went on to preach to the ignorant and the unbeliever who failed to see the larger than life truth he delivered as an intermediary between some inspirational superior being and the bottom feeders down there that don't get it.  
It seems that the concept of democracy is absent from the left. "They" ... own the truth and have inherited by association, the right to impose on others their own pathetic little lies and tricks necessary to achieve their agenda, whatever it is.   
When things don't go their way, they jump up and down like little spoiled brats yet far from realising what went wrong and recognise that their lies were too transparent and that the electorate is becoming more discerning, they go on to suck about how the infidels have spoiled their great plan to spoil and destroy what working Australians have built.  
I am both surprised by this new found capacity by the voters, to see the bs when it steams in front of them, and also surprised by the complete lack of insight by the so called "leaders of the left" that have just delivered the most stupid defeat to their own party losing the unloseable election. They are not the first to do so but probably the first to blame everyone else but themselves, their policies and the arrogant petulant and ignorant delivery that patronise and frowns upon the voter that does not accept their crap as if it was printed in the book of life by gaia herself.   It is not because the truth is too difficult to see that we make mistakes... we make mistakes because the easiest and most comfortable course for us is to seek insight where it accords with our emotions - especially selfish ones. 
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn  "I lost the seat of Warringah because I am out of step with Warringah. 
Yet Warringah is out of step with the rest of Australia" ... Tony Abbott.

----------


## Bros

Bob should now be on Morrison Christmas card mailing list as without doubt he was the best asset the Libs had in Queensland aided by Palmer.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-...-term/11122998

----------


## DavoSyd

> Bob should now be on Morrison Christmas card mailing list as without doubt he was the best assert the Libs had in Queensland aided by Palmer.

  yep, Morrison has many to thank, most are not even in his own party!   

> Bob Brown says "greed won" over climate action in the federal election after Labor's poor showing in Queensland, rejecting claims his anti-Adani convoy backfired.  "People went for the money," Mr Brown said on Sunday.  "It just shows that dollars will defeat morality at the ballot box."

----------


## PhilT2

I'm waiting to see Getup post their donations online. I'm sure some of the Liberal party contributed to their effort to get rid of Abbott.

----------


## DavoSyd

> I'm waiting to see Getup post their donations online. I'm sure some of the Liberal party contributed to their effort to get rid of Abbott.

  a LNP govt sans Abbott is such a more digestible outcome...

----------


## johnc

> I'm waiting to see Getup post their donations online. I'm sure some of the Liberal party contributed to their effort to get rid of Abbott.

  I wonder if getup had any influence at all, they don't seem to have effected results in other targeted seats, I reckon if Abbott only got 60% of his local Liberal vote in preselection with no opponent he was very much on the nose. The grass roots anti Abbott groups do not seem to have originated from any of the leftie groups and Zali seems to be a traditional Liberal voter. This I think is a double win for the Liberals, they won the election and got rid of Abbott. Abbott marched to the beat of his own drum, he didn't care what others thought and stuck with his attitudes and views, rather than represent his electorate he represented himself. The same sex marraige vote may have been a turning point, hard to pin point the issue that tipped the scales but it was obvious he was unwanted and unloved and his petty ambition meant he cost the Liberals a seat they could have done with. If he had of resigned after being tipped from the leadership and kept his mouth shut the party would still have his seat. I would have liked to have seen Dutton go as well, but one gone is ok. 
We are lucky in this country, both of the main parties, Liberal/Labor are centrist, our elections are not marred with violence and we don't see calls for radical action beyond the odd nutter on the lunatic fringe. Regardless of which party got in things will not change much. I would like to see a greater effort with our carbon emmissions and a more honest approach to our financial issues, we are slipping economically the Liberals do not have a good record in making the changes needed but lets see what Morrison manages going forward. I would be surprised to see the national accounts in surplus next year, Josh is not going to get the GDP growth he forcast and we will not get the employment growth needed, after six years this lot really haven't got it. 
I reckon Bill stuffed Labor with his negative gearing and imputation changes, the Liberals are as unloved as Labour, this election like the last saw the LNP squeek in, the country seems to be looking for leadership and can't decide which side can deliver it.

----------


## Bros

> I reckon Bill stuffed Labor with his negative gearing and imputation changes, the Liberals are as unloved as Labour, this election like the last saw the LNP squeek in, the country seems to be looking for leadership and can't decide which side can deliver it.

  They got a lot of individuals off side and collectively they voted against Labour. I recall Bowen saying " if you dont like our policy vote against us" which was an arrogant thing to say. 
Libs when Morrisson was the treasurer in the Turnbull Gov defined rich as people having $1.6M in super allocated pensions in addition they tightened up the asset test so more were kicked off part pension. Labour couldn't believe their luck and passed the Libs policy. These people I expect would have voted labour at the last election but labour sensed that they could further erode the "rich" decided to get into the negative gearing and imputation credits. 
Combine the above with the Adani mine being favored by Queensland and the dislike of southern greenies (Bob Brown) telling Queenslanders what to do tipped more to the LNP.  
Palmer never helped either but for his $30M to $80M he was unable to buy a seat. He went all out against Labour but in the Queensland election he went all out against the LNP with Labour the only opposition so his reasoning defies me.

----------


## Uncle Bob

https://www.news.com.au/national/fed...5808896c61409d 
Either that or the election was hacked.

----------


## phild01

Palmer has vested interests in Mining and just didn't want a Labour Govt. Apparently the analysts say his advertising worked to this end. 
Look the bottom line is, and Howard's commentary is spot on, you have to have a popular leader to win government.  Shorten was as I say, a self interest scumbag and should have taken his leave many years ago.  The party was too weak to get rid of him as leader and I guess, don't have strong leadership prospects, though Albo would have run rings around BS.  And pea brain Bowen has no idea about economic management and what sits well with the voter, he should take early leave too.

----------


## autogenous

> Labor certainly lost my vote with the negative gearing changes. I've only started to make a loss due to all the increased utilities, land tax and interest rates while in my locations the rental market has dropped. 
> I'm already providing a tenant with a house at below what it costs to hold what more do they want? Well in time the market will correct. Less rentals and the rent will go up. 
> If they have not saved up and brought in today's low market with low rates they are certainly not going to do in future.

  If interest rates keep going down, youll be positive geared again. Negatve gearing will be positive gearing.

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## Uncle Bob

> Palmer never helped either but for his $30M to $80M he was unable to buy a seat. He went all out against Labour but in the Queensland election he went all out against the LNP with Labour the only opposition so his reasoning defies me.

  No doubt (for me anyway) that he has financial ulterior motive and will get his payday in due course.

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## Uncle Bob

Slime-Mo won't go the course, Dutton will knife him at the first opportunity.

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## phild01

> Slime-Mo won't go the course, Dutton will knife him at the first opportunity.

  Won't happen.  Dutton's aspirations would be dead and buried.

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## autogenous

> Palmer has vested interests in Mining and just didn't want a Labour Govt. Apparently the analysts say his advertising worked to this end. 
> Look the bottom line is, and Howard's commentary is spot on, you have to have a popular leader to win government. Shorten was as I say, a self interest scumbag and should have taken his leave many years ago. The party was too weak to get rid of him as leader and I guess, don't have strong leadership prospects, though Albo would have run rings around BS. And pea brain Bowen has no idea about economic management and what sits well with the voter, he should take early leave too.

  Shorten has run the ALP for years. He thought he would have a go at the ALP when it was an easy chance. Working not

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## Uncle Bob

Don't under estimate him Phil, his darkness runs deep.

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## autogenous

> https://www.news.com.au/national/fed...5808896c61409d 
> Either that or the election was hacked.

  _"Most of the journos are communists. There was a full lefty campaign that_ _didnt__ work._ _The following article was first written by Jennifer Oriel and published in The Australian during August 2016. It deals with hacked and dumped files covering the financial reach of_ _American billionaire__ George Soros and his influence in Australian politics via GetUp. In Tasmania GetUp spent about $500,000 to unseat Andrew Nikolic and forked out $140,000 on campaign advertising alone. Nikolic, a good man blown away by foreign political socialists interfering in Australian politics. Imagine if an Australian billionaire messed with US elections?_  _MM believes similar force tactics may be used to influence the Yes vote in the upcoming postal vote for SSM, particularly since GetUp has publicly declared their emphatic yes position. George Soros is already a known supporter of the rainbow cult with all_ _it__ weirdness and therefore likely to support GetUp in their push."  https://morningmail.org/negate-soros...nfluence-vote/  GetUp! is an Australian left-wing political activist group. It was launched in August 2005 to ... and included Cate Faehrmann, Bill Shorten (then National Secretary of the Australian Workers' Union), former leader  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GetUp! _

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## pharmaboy2

> I got several poll calls on my mobile. The calling number began with 0488822. Made them easy to decline

  Same -  got to talk with one of them, and just told them no, I dont vote and I dont want to talk to you

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## phild01

I have never been polled :Frown:  Gotta stop hanging up on people :Biggrin:

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## r3nov8or

Labor failed to recognise that there are very many, and increasing, trade unionists earning a hell of a lot of money and they have investments they work a lot of overtime to earn. BS was told this directly by one such worker on TV during a campaign factory visit. The guy pointed to every worker there saying they will all be affected by Labor policy. Totally missed the point, or too late to retract the policy, regardless, no one won this election, Labor lost it.

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## DavoSyd

> Don't under estimate him Phil, his darkness runs deep.

  he's channelling an old foe....

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## phild01

Abbott would spewing in the knowledge that the polls that unseated him as PM were quite likely a misnomer.  The reality might have been that the party was ahead rather than behind for all those polls taken over the years.

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## pharmaboy2

> Abbott would spewing in the knowledge that the polls that unseated him as PM were quite likely a misnomer.  The reality might have been that the party was ahead rather than behind for all those polls taken over the years.

  ‘They do their own polling.  Remember all those statements from Turnbull about where they really were?  Same with scomo on Friday night, he didn’t talk like a loser, he said it would be close. 
ultimately, labor went to an election that said your biggest asset is overvalued and we want to devalue it further - even though it’s lost something like 20% value over the last 2 years - thought they had it in the bag so could do what the like.  Good riddance to them

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## Marc

> Labor failed to recognise that there are very many, and increasing, trade unionists earning a hell of a lot of money and they have investments they work a lot of overtime to earn. BS was told this directly by one such worker on TV during a campaign factory visit. The guy pointed to every worker there saying they will all be affected by Labor policy. Totally missed the point, or too late to retract the policy, regardless, no one won this election, Labor lost it.

  The idea that only those under $50k a year are virtuous oppressed and exploited victim "workers", and those above are the fat pigs exploiters who need to be punished is so obsolete and retrograde that deserves failing every time. Only policies that reward and celebrate success and measure success not only with meaningless prizes, but measures it by how much the person earns. The more earning the higher the success. When this may be alien to some sectors of the population that are reluctant to talk about money, it is in fact the only true measure of an enterprise success be it a company or a person. Oh yes, tell me about the Australia Post CEO and his 5 millions salary. If you think it is wrong join the board and vote him out. otherwise, try to get that job yourself. 
A person or company earnings is the result of supply and demand. If you are in demand for your particular skills you get paid more. It is not for the government to use moralist, socialist or idiotic labels and call someones earning wrong or right. 
Yes ... this election was lost by Labor due to their arrogant, pigheaded, blind, nonsensical, and fraudulent policies, and the criminal behaviour of some of their "supporters" 
Now what is left to do is to place 10 wind generators in Warringah ... may be 20?

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## Bros

With reelection of the Libs I suppose this still applies

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## r3nov8or

> With reelection of the Libs I suppose this still applies

  Sounds like BS

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## cyclic

> The idea that only those under $50k a year are virtuous oppressed and exploited victim "workers", and those above are the fat pigs exploiters who need to be punished is so obsolete and retrograde that deserves failing every time. Only policies that reward and celebrate success and measure success not only with meaningless prizes, but measures it by how much the person earns. The more earning the higher the success. When this may be alien to some sectors of the population that are reluctant to talk about money, it is in fact the only true measure of an enterprise success be it a company or a person. Oh yes, tell me about the Australia Post CEO and his 5 millions salary. If you think it is wrong join the board and vote him out. otherwise, try to get that job yourself. 
> A person or company earnings is the result of supply and demand. If you are in demand for your particular skills you get paid more. It is not for the government to use moralist, socialist or idiotic labels and call someones earning wrong or right. 
> Yes ... this election was lost by Labor due to their arrogant, pigheaded, blind, nonsensical, and fraudulent policies, and the criminal behaviour of some of their "supporters" 
> Now what is left to do is to place 10 wind generators in Warringah ... may be 20?

  Labor had a nice big slap up winning party on friday night it appears.  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ion-party.html

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## r3nov8or

> Labor had a nice big slap up winning party on friday night it appears.  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ion-party.html

  Labor policy 101, "Count the chickens before the rooster is in the barn"

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## Marc

Join the petition for wind turbines for warringah https://www.change.org/p/zali-stegga...-for-warringah

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## Bedford

But who's going to fix the oil leaks?

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## phild01

> Join the petition for wind turbines for warringah https://www.change.org/p/zali-stegga...-for-warringah

  Marc, did you have a hand in that one :Cool:

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## SilentButDeadly

> Join the petition for wind turbines for warringah https://www.change.org/p/zali-stegga...-for-warringah

  Why? It would only get in the way of all of the wind farms already approved by NSW and Federal Government in National Party seats...

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## cyclic

If Scott Morrison is Scomo 
Does that make Anthony Albanese Anal.

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## Bros

Abo, is it politically correct?

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## Marc

On Albanese's family name. Albo was asked about his surname's pronunciation a few times in the past, and surprisingly he gives a BS answer every time including this morning on the radio. 
What he does, he states that the Italian pronunciation is "Albanesi" with an i at the end like Itali. Wrong! It is Albanese pronounced with an "e" at the end like Everest.
The name in Italian means "The Albanian", yet if pronounced with an "I" at the end it makes it plural and means "The Albanians". 
So strange that he does not know this little useless piece of information.  :Rofl5:

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## Jon

> Labor policy 101, "Count the chickens before the rooster is in the barn"

  Libs use the same play book.  Don't forget they have already delivered the budget surplus next year 
====

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## r3nov8or

> Libs use the same play book.  Don't forget they have already delivered the budget surplus next year 
> ====

  Better than not getting the chance to try

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