# Forum Home Renovation Roofing  Joist Hangers and Pryda Brackets

## OBBob

Hi All 
OK I know this is the wrong time to ask this question because I have just spent the weekend hanging joists between bearers with pryda brackets ... but after 1500 hand driven nails ... what is the easy way?? 
Can you get a coil nailer or the like to do this job? If so will any brand do it with the right nails and can they be used for any pryda style brackets?  
While we are on the subject, what is the normal gun for weather boards and are there any guns to hang cement sheet without breaking it?  
Thanks.

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## echnidna

I would have just put the joists snugly between the bearers with a framing nailgun and no brackets at all.

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## ozwinner

Ive seen a lot of chipies use a coil nailer with clouts to nail in the brackets. 
Maybe next time ehh?  :Tongue:   
Al  :Smilie:

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## OBBob

Oh well the design showed brackets, so no choice there but maybe I'll invest in a coil nailer for the other work I need to do.

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## silentC

I don't think they would pass muster without a hanger. Skew nailing isn't good enough I wouldn't think. 
You can use a coil nailer for cement sheet (5mm) and for weatherboards. I've just finished lining my new office with fibro and the coil nailer was a god send.  
Duofast.

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## journeyman Mick

If the building inspector wants to get picky he can knock back framing brackets fixed with a coil nailer. Reason being that in most cases hardened nails are used and just nailed straight thru the steel of the bracket, not through the holes. The plans/specs would show "fixed with xxxx brackets as per manufacturer's specifications" Nailing thru the bracket is not per the manufacturer's specs. There is a coil nailer by Bostitch that has the nail tip protruding from the gun so that it can aligned with and be shot thru the holes. 
Mick

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## tcns

> There is a coil nailer by Bostitch that has the nail tip protruding from the gun so that it can aligned with and be shot thru the holes. 
> Mick

  I have seen those in the american magazines, they look great I think that would be really handy - I suppose they will come down in price soon ! 
Tom

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## OBBob

The latest version of the Pryda bracing documentation lists the requirements for using machine driven nails with their brackets. You are required to use a certain quantity of hardened nails (dependant on the bracket) and they are not to be put through the holes ... i.e. they must penetrate the metal.

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## journeyman Mick

> The latest version of the Pryda bracing documentation lists the requirements for using machine driven nails with their brackets. You are required to use a certain quantity of hardened nails (dependant on the bracket) and they are not to be put through the holes ... i.e. they must penetrate the metal.

  Well that certainly makes things a lot easier. I was considering buying one of the Bostitch guns at one stage there but decided against it as I already had two coil nailers (one for fibro the other for fencing/metal brackets/bracing). 
Mick

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## sleeping-wood

> Originally Posted by *OBBob*   _The latest version of the Pryda bracing documentation lists the requirements for using machine driven nails with their brackets. You are required to use a certain quantity of hardened nails (dependant on the bracket) and they are not to be put through the holes ... i.e. they must penetrate the metal._

  Do you have a link to the documentation? I have searched through the Pryda site and am unable to find it. Thanks http://www.pryda.com.au/index.php?sectionid=21

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## OBBob

See page 13, it specs Senco gun nails through metal not holes.   http://www.pryda.com.au/catalog.php?...s&conn=FB50180

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## sleeping-wood

Thanks for that.

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## OBBob

Hi There 
Just an update on what I said about Pryda nailing. The machine nailing still only appears to be listed for their joist hangers ... not brackets such as multigrips. 
I would be interested to know if builders nails multigrips, triplegrips etc. by hand ... I sort of imagine they wouldn't ... that's a lot of nailing on a whole house?

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## silentC

We did.

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## OBBob

> We did.

  Awh come on ... that's not what I wanted to hear. I wanted to be slack on this one!!  :Smilie:

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## silentC

But I'm not a builder  :Wink:  
Put it this way, a mate of mine is a builder and he has a coil nailer which would be perfect for this job but I'm guessing he doesn't use it for nailing off multigrips etc because it's sitting in my shed and has been for the last 6 months!!  :Biggrin:

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## journeyman Mick

> .....................I would be interested to know if builders nails multigrips, triplegrips etc. by hand ... I sort of imagine they wouldn't ... that's a lot of nailing on a whole house?

  Generally not, that's a job for the labourer or the apprentice. :Biggrin:  
Although, yes, I have hand nailed more than a few of them, it really doesn't take that long. Hold nail in position, tap once to start and then reach into your nail bag and grab the next nail while you drive the first home. 
Mick

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## OBBob

Well ... sounds like I need the practice!!  :Smilie:   
Actually I don't mind the ones into the top plate but its 5.5m up at my ridge beam that I really don't enjoy ... but should have though of that when I designed it!  
Or I need an apprentice / labourer.

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## OBBob

OK Guy's ... I have followed the advice and had a very enjoyable weekend fitting 200 multigrips by hand! I guess with modern power and air tools you can get a bit soft. I look at various aspects of my 100 year old house quite often and wonder how they originally built it without all that stuff???

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## silentC

I tell you what though, I'd much rather belt them all in with a hammer than drag an air hose all over a roof frame. If there's something that a hose can get caught on you can be certain it will, and usually when you're up in the roof and on your own.

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## Eddie Jones

Nobody mentioned a Pneumatic Palm Nailer yet. I thought this was their main use. (???)

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## OBBob

That'd be right! I've never heard of them ... are they any good? How much are they worth?

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## silentC

> I thought this was their main use

  You're telling the story! 
Never seen one in use. Don't know much about them but I gather they just bang in an ordinary nail and are good for spots where it's too tight to swing a hammer or get a nail gun in. Not sure if they would take a flat head clout like you use on these brackets? I reckon I could beat you in a race with you using one of them and me using a hammer  :Wink:

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## pawnhead

> I look at various aspects of my 100 year old house quite often and wonder how they originally built it without all that stuff???

  Not to mention no power tools. But more importantly, no silicone, no gappo and no builders bog.    :Shock:

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## OBBob

Well maybe the blisters and that black thumbnail were worth it ... the frame inspector counted the nails on few of the pryda brackets!

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## Deanom

I am a structural engineer and would approve nailing through the joist hanger provided the right no of nails with the right diameter and right driven depth was achieved, although pryda may advise against it. Very scary to see someone would do without the brackets and skew nail the joist ends (assuming face fixed) into the bearers.  Would have something like 5% capacity of the hanger.  Seriously dont take this guys advice.
Deanom

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## russ34

i can understand tidy nailing left/right triple grips by hand where they will be seen but for joist hangers and hidden situations the gun is the only way to go!  pretty freaky how someone could specify nailing through the holes or not nailing through the holes, buggered if i can see any reason either way..

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## OBBob

Yeah, I think you'll find that the inspectors will only approve something if their ass is covered by a document of some sort, which is probably fair enough given the increased litigation levels creeping in.  
As for the barckets, they are designed around maximum limit states ... so I image they are tested to where they fail, then a factor of safety is incorporated. So if you were building right on the limit state (neglecting the FS for a minute) then you wouldn't want to be adding holes to the brackets.  
I'm guessing a builder who knows his inpectors would have no bracket nailing issues in reality.

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## Deanom

I'm pretty sure the nails in bearing on the timber would fail before the steel bracket failed.  It wouldn't make sense for Pryda to design their bracket to fail before the timber.  Provided the right no of nails are driven sensibly into the bracket, I'm sure it doesnt make much difference whether the nails are driven through the plate or into the holes.  Ofcourse you are better off to drive through the holes that have been provided.

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## silentC

Look at it this way: Each hole in one of those brackets is a potential weakness. If the hole is too close to the side of the bracket, it could tear through. So in engineering those brackets, the size, number and location of the holes must be taken into account. Then they would have to be tested, probably to the point of failure, to establish the operational parameters for the design. This would then feed into the load ratings etc which would have to be documented to allow them to be approved for use in construction. Then you want to come along and belt nails into them where ever you feel like?

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## journeyman Mick

> I'm pretty sure the nails in bearing on the timber would fail before the steel bracket failed...............

  Yes, but would you be prepared to sign a document giving a builder the okay to go ahead and do it that way? :Sneaktongue:   So unless the manufacturer says it's okay (which they apparently they do now, but this wasn't always the case) then the inspector would be well within his rights to knock it back. Actually he'd be a fool not to, given that he might get sued further down the track if something goes wrong. Aaah, isn't it a wonderful world we live in now? :No:   
Mick
PS BTW I'm pretty sure the nails would fail before the bracket would too. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## OBBob

It'd be nice if they made a blank bracket with defined number of nails allowed to be put through with a gun. But then what would the apprentice do? 
If only I had one!  :Smilie:

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## Deanom

Wow Mick, prompt reply.
Youre right, I personally wouldnt give the builder permission to drive the nail through the bracket as I can see many short comings.  Some that spring to mind are:
- Poorly placed nail patterns meaning some nails really arent effective.
- Tearing the plate
- Drawing in the plate and not seating the nail head properly flush with the plate and timber
- etc.
I think anyone who drives through the plate ignoring the holes is foolish.
Cheers

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## silentC

> I am a structural engineer and would approve nailing through the joist hanger provided the right no of nails with the right diameter and right driven depth was achieved

  So what were you on about here  :Confused:

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## Deanom

I was on about provided everything was honkey dory, nails driven to correct depth, good placement, nothing damaged, I would have no reason to reject the joint.
Quite often I do inspections and find that builders make compromises.  It is always too late when your on site.  You have to have a good reason (with engineering judgement and possibly a calculation) to reject something.  I just would not recommend builders to try and drive the nails through the plate without considering the holes, not good practice but if it can be achieved, why reject the joint.  
Have you ever seen this done Silent C.  I havent thats why I cant recommend it, but if it appeared reasonable, I couldnt reject it, could you?

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## manoftalent

ok this post is a tad late ...since the work has already been done .....but GMC have a new tool , at first look I thought it pretty ordinary compared to a nailgun and much slower ......however it could have saved ya arms from all that hammering .......it takes any sized nail up to around 100mm......you poke it in the magnetic business end head first ...stick the point of the nail where ya want it .....and press the trigger .....its kinda like a hammer drill...it hammers the nail in to the preset depth ....and is cordless with a backup battery .....I didnt think much of it at the time, but using it to hang tons of joist hangers etc would probably be worth it ....it sells for around $200 and was last seen at bunnings ...... 
and after I did a 2 storey balcony .....so next time I might just get one  :Doh:

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## silentC

Well, I'm not an engineer, so not really in a position to approve or reject anything. But if I was and I saw someone had installed something in a way that was contrary to the manufacturer's recommendations, then I wouldn't put my backside on the line with it, would you?  :Wink:  
I actually think the holes are there more for convenience for hand nailing than anything else. Otherwise, it could just be covered with a "minimum 3 nails per bracket face, no nail to be within 5mm of the edge or a fold" for example. 
But they already look like a piece of Swiss cheese, so I'd be reluctant to put any more holes in them, and as I said on the previous page, I'm sure that the location, size and number has been subject to assessment and the things approved for use on that basis.

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## silentC

> ok this post is a tad late ...since the work has already been done .....but GMC have a new tool , at first look I thought it pretty ordinary compared to a nailgun and much slower ......however it could have saved ya arms from all that hammering .......it takes any sized nail up to around 100mm......you poke it in the magnetic business end head first ...stick the point of the nail where ya want it .....and press the trigger .....its kinda like a hammer drill...it hammers the nail in to the preset depth ....and is cordless with a backup battery .....I didnt think much of it at the time, but using it to hang tons of joist hangers etc would probably be worth it ....it sells for around $200 and was last seen at bunnings ...... 
> and after I did a 2 storey balcony .....so next time I might just get one

  That sounds like the palm nailer someone mentioned earlier in this thread. Have yet to see one. Would it take a clout, or is it only suitable for bullet heads?

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## journeyman Mick

Dean,
I have gun nailed them in, but to be honest you've got to go pretty slow to get a good nail placement (to avoid all the issues you identified) and by the time you drag that airline over the trusses or whatever you really don't save that much time. You can give a few boxes of nails, a hammer and a pouch to a totally unskilled labourer or apprentice and keep them occupied without having to keep an eye on them. 
MAnoftalent,
saw Dean's review on them, and I doubt that it could drive a nail into hardwood any faster than I could.  
Mick

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## OBBob

Yeah ... but we're all slacker than you mick!!

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## silentC

> That sounds like the palm nailer someone mentioned earlier in this thread. Have yet to see one. Would it take a clout, or is it only suitable for bullet heads?

  Is this the beast in question?: http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/rev...eallnailer.htm 
According to Dean it will take a 50mm clout, so could be ok, although 50mm is a bit long I think. 35mm is standard I think.

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## silentC

> I doubt that it could drive a nail into hardwood any faster than I could.

  You keep forgetting Mick, it's only Queenslanders who have to work with hardwood trusses!

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## Deanom

Silent C,
These brackets really do have good capacity.  The thing that is usually critical is the timber in bearing.  Timber bearing on a nail does not have much capacity thats why you need significant amounts of nails.  The nails and brackets usually arent close to failure, however the timber usually is.  Thats why I wouldnt be too concerned.  I dont consider I would be putting my ???? on the line if I saw nails driven through the steel bracket.  Not counting enough nails in the timber and poor penetration, edge or end distance, I believe would be a critical assessment.

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## journeyman Mick

> You keep forgetting Mick, it's only Queenslanders who have to work with hardwood trusses!

   :Doh:   :Doh:   :Blush7:   
Mick

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## manoftalent

I could nail it by hand faster too ......and last time I looked at it, it took All nail sizes up too around 100mm....bullet and flathead .....and upon reflection I think your arm would get just as tired as hammering by hand ...this thing is around the same size as a fencing nailgun ...just cordless ....   
"just get it done"!

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## silentC

> The nails and brackets usually arent close to failure, however the timber usually is

  Yep good point.

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## manoftalent

hey wait a minute .....maybe they could sack buffy and use it to drive stakes into vampires  :Rolleyes:

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## silentC

> .....and last time I looked at it, it took All nail sizes up too around 100mm....bullet and flathead .....

  Not according to the info in Dean's review. He gives a table half way down the page.

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## OBBob

Yeah ... don't understand that table ... because the gun just grips the head.

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## manoftalent

yeah I just plodded back to see Deans excellent review .....thats the sucker alright ..

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