# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  Should domestic electrical DIY be allowed in Australia?

## elkangorito

Should domestic electrical DIY be allowed in Australia? Please post additional comments if you wish. Multiple choice is not permitted but if you feel you would like to have more than one choice, please voice your opinion.

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## nev25

> Should domestic electrical DIY be allowed in Australia? Please post additional comments if you wish.

  Hasn't this been done to death already 
I say yeah as it would create a lot more work for me
Ive yet to see a DIY electrical installation done right 
I get a the occasional call that goes something like "I just installed this light and I cannot get it to work can you come over now" 
Then there was one I actually went and had a look at
He had the active and neutral across the light switch so when he turned it on 
BANG 
Then I could become an Electrical inspector and charge to audit DIY jobs 
Plenty of money to be made

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## elkangorito

> Hasn't this been done to death already 
> I say yeah as it would create a lot more work for me
> Ive yet to see a DIY electrical installation done right 
> I get a the occasional call that goes something like "I just installed this light and I cannot get it to work can you come over now" 
> Then there was one I actually went and had a look at
> He had the active and neutral across the light switch so when he turned it on 
> BANG 
> Then I could become an Electrical inspector and charge to audit DIY jobs 
> Plenty of money to be made

  Geez Nev, is there an existing or pre-existing poll of this nature? I don't know. 
My intention was to gather some "numbers" on this subject, which will hopefully reflect the true feelings of the forum members. 
If multiple choice is required, maybe I could request a moderator to change things but I need to know sooner than later, about this.

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## autogenous

Do you mean change a light globe? 
All the rest puts people at risk not necessarily the ones that did the work. 
In WA you now need a work certificate for insurance purposes 
Well you need a lot more for insurance purposes 
Insurance drives much of the safety in the state  :Smilie:

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## spartan

...and then there are the ones like....I've just had another electrician here and now nothing works...... 
Had two in the last month.....A license doesn't mean professional and competence or......the fact that people can have a bad day and get things wrong... 
I've also certified work done by DIYers that has been every bit as good as a licensed electrician....in fact sometimes that is the give away...its too good... 
just my 2c....merry christmas...regardless of which side of the debate you sit on... :Kiss:

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## autogenous

> Had two in the last month.....A license doesn't mean professional and competence or......the fact that people can have a bad day and get things wrong.

  With this comes accountability. If your unhappy complain to the electrical body in your state.   

> I've also certified work done by DIYers that has been every bit as good as a licensed electrician....in fact sometimes that is the give away...its too good...

  This comes with nothing when your child goes up in a puff of smoke. 
This is not DIY either. This is using an unlicensed electrician. 
Sure licences don't guarantee good workmanship. Theres some crap out there. However without the license there is no accountability and standards would be a lot lot worse.

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## autogenous

All trades across all states should be licenced.  
Trades that require no licence in some states have conmen with no experience swindling people with their biggest investment of their lives leaving their house a total disaster. 
Most people critic at the superfluous product totally missing the big bodge ups in others. 
Even some less scrupulous builders will take anything if its cheap enough especially in busier times. Their only concern is the bottom line. 
Itll be interesting to see the result of a half decent earth quake in some states in the future. 
Houses ready for the dozer.

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## Smurf

Ultimately, I think this issue stems from the fact that electricians have been making good money recently and that's upset a few people who just _had_ to go to uni for the perceived status of it and didn't want to get their hands dirty. Now they're complaining that the shortage of workers caused by this attitude has pushed wages and prices up. 
There's rather a lot of medical work that doesn't really need a qualified doctor but we don't seem to be hearing much about that one. Same with a lot of professions and other trades - electricians have become a target simply due to a shortage of them and consequent high wages and prices.

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## Terrian

> electricians have become a target simply due to a shortage of them and consequent high wages and prices.

  $700 for a 3rd year apprentice to run a circuit 8m under the house, then 8m underground (trench was already dug, a little over 900mm if I recall correctly) to the garage to a fuse box, wire up 2 fluro lights and 2 power points, all materials already here, trench already dug, plenty of clearance under the house, less than 2hrs work according to the sparky boss. 
$350hr for a qualified sparky is excessive, it is horrendous amount to pay an apprentice. 
On the other hand I had a plumber spend 45 minutes lowering a gas pipe, he supplied all needed gear, we dug the trench, and cost me $70

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## Master Splinter

I'd say a two stage process - something like a 6-12 week (4 hours one night a week)  TAFE course plus mandatory inspection of completed work, and maybe an advanced course that puts the inspection on the same framework as tradies.   
Restricted to domestic work only for your house only, up to and including fusebox.

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## anawanahuanana

I honestly think that some of the simpler stuff should be allowed to be DIY, as long as it is inspected by someone qualified and certified safe before use. I wouldn't advocate anyone who wasn't qualified playing around in the fuse box, but to keep stressing the belief that nobody is capable of changing a GPO, lightswitch, pulling cable or changing a light globe (if you take the regs to the letter) without doing a 4 year apprenticeship first is simply bogus and reduces the credibility of the argument.
Why, if inspected and certified as carried out to regs, is any work completed by a DIYer any more dangerous than that carried out by a licensed electrician? 
As for suggesting that there are things that a doctor need not do, well you are absolutely correct. These things are most often carried out by a nurse in the real world. Nurses have a lot of latitude in what they are allowed to perform, provided they have been trained in that task. Why should there not exist a system in Australia where people could attend a TAFE course of similar and learn how to carry out the majority of household wiring tasks safely and to regs? Why should those people not then be allowed to carry out those tasks and have them inspected? To say "because it's against the law" is not an answer, as this is about what could be changed to improve things in the future. 
Do those proponents of a closed shop really believe that because they are told it is illegal, that a lot of people then go home, dig out the yellow pages and spend 3 weeks trying to get guys to turn up to do a 5 minute job and change a broken GPO? Of course they don't. They go to Bunnings, buy a GPO and go home an try to fit it. Now, I believe that most people who consider doing their own wiring would appreciate and utilise the opportuinity to learn about doing it properly. Would this not improve safety? You would still be breaking the law by doing the DIY and not having it inspected, so where is the differece with the current system? You will always have people who disregard the rules and do anything to save a buck. They will still exist and changing the regs will make no difference to their actions. But a lot of people would take the opportunity to learn and do the job right. How can that be less safe than the system we have now? 
I have yet to see a clear, credible argument against changing the rules. The usual answers are the unhelpful, and frankly sometimes childish replies of "that's the way it is. Get over it", "so write to your M.P", or "I had to do a 4 year apprenticeship, so why should you not have to do the same?". I rarely see anyone trying to justify why changing the regs to allow education and inspection is more dangerous with any reasoned logic, and that is because there isn't any logic against it.  
This subject really has been done to death on these boards, and I almost cringe now when I see a new member ask about doing some electrical work himself, as I know what is coming. I don't think we'll ever get away from the arguments, but I long for the day when I see some real reasoned debate from the electricians side. I applaude elkangorito for his recent decision to offer advice to make people safer. In my opinion it certainly does more to help people sleep safely in their beds than saying" if you do that all your children will be burnt to death and the insurance company will gouge out your eyes and make sure you go to jail for eternity"...................... 
Hope everyone has a safe and happy Christmas.

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## 2x4

> $700 for a 3rd year apprentice to run a circuit 8m under the house, then 8m underground to the garage to a fuse box, wire up 2 fluro lights and 2 power points, all materials already here, trench already dug, plenty of clearance under the house, less than 2hrs work according to the sparky boss.

  
It pays to shop around for the best quote........does it not?
If the tradie is not really intersted in doing the job, of course he will price high.
This applies to all professions. 
But lets break down the costs, assuming you had ALL THE MATERIALS.
1. Travel to site, and tool up for job    1hr
2. 6mm cable from existing fuse box, cable clipped under house, run through trench to the board in the shed. 1hr ( if you are lucky )
3. Install new breaker at house board and fit off.   .5hr
4. Run light and power circuits, hang and fit off lights, install gpos    1.5hrs
5. Install shed board, fit main switch and breakers , fit off. 1 hr
6. Test installation, pack up the truck and piss off.  1hr. 
I'm guessing around 6hours work.
Throw in some lunch and it is pretty much a full day. 
I know you said the boss said it was 2 hrs work, but I just cant see it.
So this brings the hourly rate back down to around $100hr. Still not cheap but not offensive.
These sort of prices seem the norm.
Not the cheapest I know, but you could have done worse in my opinion.
BTW  :Merrychristmas:

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## Terrian

> It pays to shop around for the best quote........does it not?

  damn right it does.   

> If the tradie is not really intersted in doing the job, of course he will price high.
> This applies to all professions.

  the inlaws just had a quote for $25k for some concrete work, they are getting it done for $8k   

> But lets break down the costs, assuming you had ALL THE MATERIALS.

   as I said, all materials supplied.   

> 1. Travel to site, and tool up for job    1hr

  next door neighbor, 2 minutes max  :Smilie:    

> 2. 6mm cable from existing fuse box, cable clipped under house, run through trench to the board in the shed. 1hr ( if you are lucky )

  guy that did the wiring for the new ducted heater took 15 minutes from box to external power point, a little more under house distance than the garage job will be.   

> 3. Install new breaker at house board and fit off.   .5hr

  heater sparky was on site for approx 1hr, new circuit, new breaker, new power point, run wiring for.thermostat. (that includes some 'gasbag' time with the gas fitter & heater installers)   

> 4. Run light and power circuits, hang and fit off lights, install gpos    1.5hrs

  lights would already be hung.   

> 5. Install shed board, fit main switch and breakers , fit off. 1 hr
> 6. Test installation, pack up the truck and piss off.  1hr. 
> I'm guessing around 6hours work.
> Throw in some lunch and it is pretty much a full day. 
> I know you said the boss said it was 2 hrs work, but I just cant see it.
> So this brings the hourly rate back down to around $100hr. Still not cheap but not offensive.

  even if it was 4hrs, it is way over the top IMO for an apprentice, when I asked for a quote, his boss said no worries, his 3rd year (my next door neighbors son) can do the job, the boss wasn't even interested in checking the work. OK, he may well be a good 3rd year, but come on...   

> These sort of prices seem the norm.

  any wonder why people do elec work themselves. 
BTW, the heater people asked if there was a power point available, or would one have to be installed, the price difference was about $100.   

> Not the cheapest I know, but you could have done worse in my opinion.

  at this stage I have opted for a 15amp extension lead from a now unused 15amp circuit that was for the in wall air con that is no longer there, with a power board from dse
(BTW, it cost me $350 to have the air con installed, 2 blokes on site for about an hour, new circuit, new breaker, new gpo)

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## 2x4

> at this stage I have opted for a 15amp extension lead from a now unused 15amp circuit that was for the in wall air con that is no longer there, with a power board from dse

  
Yep....That would be the cheepest option. :Biggrin:  
A little rude on his behalf considering he is your nieghboor. 
Maybe have a word with him and suggest you that you run all the cables, may as well fit everything off as well , bar the switchboards. Leave the gpos and switches hanging off the walls for them to glance over. 
That way it may only cost you $500 :Tongue:

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## Terrian

> Yep....That would be the cheepest option.

   

> A little rude on his behalf considering he is your nieghboor.

  I thought so, considering it was to be a cash in hand job, only official thing was a certificate.   

> Maybe have a word with him and suggest you that you run all the cables, may as well fit everything off as well , bar the switchboards. Leave the gpos and switches hanging off the walls for them to glance over.
> That way it may only cost you $500

   :Rofl:  methinks he lost as easy cash job. 
We are going to contact the sparkies that did the air con and heater jobsearly in the new year.

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## 2x4

Where did you find the giggling icon. Searched for one earlier but no joy.

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## Ashore

[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Anyone/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG] :Rofl:     here Copy and paste to your pics and use as necessary , just don't tell neil as it takes up extra space 
As for the questions wheres the rats ring option or were you worried that you would get more responses there , typical hollier than though lets feel important lecco poll , I mean whats the result of such a poll (even if *all* the forum members were intrestered ) going to mean to a person who calles himself ( using you words ) an electrician from thailand and then if anyone disagrees with you as nev did , they get a spray  :Doh:

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## 2x4

> [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Anyone/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]

  I must have been good this year. 
A virtual gift......for Christmas :Biggrin:  
Thank you Ashore. 
You can have a scooter  :Scooter:

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## Terrian

> Where did you find the giggling icon. Searched for one earlier but no joy.

   :Rofl:   :Smilie:  
rofl with : before & after

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## bricks

> I honestly think that some of the simpler stuff should be allowed to be DIY, as long as it is inspected by someone qualified and certified safe before use. I wouldn't advocate anyone who wasn't qualified playing around in the fuse box, but to keep stressing the belief that nobody is capable of changing a GPO, lightswitch, pulling cable or changing a light globe (if you take the regs to the letter) without doing a 4 year apprenticeship first is simply bogus and reduces the credibility of the argument.
> Why, if inspected and certified as carried out to regs, is any work completed by a DIYer any more dangerous than that carried out by a licensed electrician?

   .......................
 The problem, which will always be present is the inspection and certification of the electrical installation. 
There is one critical underlying fact which will ensure diy electrical installations remain illegal. There is no way to check who is doing electrical installations if the installers are not licensed or are not reporting that an installation is taking place. 
Under the current system, the Technical Regulator's office is responsible for all electrical and gas installations and the inspection of both at the time of installation. Currently the Office of the technical regulator is finacially maintained using the proceeds from electrical and gas license fees. Basically the electricians and gas fitters of Aus pay for the body which will inspect their work. The office of the technical regulator is the only gov based regulatory body which is not government funded. 
If the DIYer is going to be inspected, DIYer will need to pay for it. Sparkies do it, DIYer can do it. Estimated cost of $70 per visit to inspect PLUS, you need to ensure the circuit your working on is tested and sound. Possibly $100 per visit.  
This means that installing a new power point, quick breakdown.
$8 powerpoint from bunnings.
+
$70 inspection charge
+ 
1 hours pay.$$($25?)
you'll need to be onsite (same as us sparkies and gas fitters) when the inspector comes to check the work, between 8am and 3-30 pm. You will lose minimum 1 hrs pay if you normally work during these times. *
TOTAL*= roughly *$103.00* to change your power point.  
and you won't be able to turn the power back on to your circuit until the inspection is done. 
I have no problem with inspectors checking DIYer installs, as long as I am not paying for it, and the gov't is not funding it. DIYer must pay. 
The problem is of course that most penny-wise DIYers won't get work inspected because they will see an easy way to save some money.    

> I have yet to see a clear, credible argument against changing the rules. The usual answers are the unhelpful, and frankly sometimes childish replies of "that's the way it is. Get over it", "so write to your M.P", or "I had to do a 4 year apprenticeship, so why should you not have to do the same?". I rarely see anyone trying to justify why changing the regs to allow education and inspection is more dangerous with any reasoned logic, and that is because there isn't any logic against it.

  Any legislation must take into account the dumbest and most deceitful DIYer out there. Just because you might follow the rules as perscribed, does not mean someone else will. The legislation must be water tight. 
If you can come up with a way to ensure absolutely all DIY work is inspected and reported, you will change the law and DIY electrical will be allowed. 
Here is a scenario, solve the problem.
DIYer does some electrical work on their home.
It is not done right, but it works. (instead of juction box, electrical tape and twitching are used to join short lengths of different size secondhand cable inside walls) 
They live there happily for another 1 to 10 years at which time the house is sold and new people move in. The renovation is complete and the new owners are happy to have such a modern house. 
The new owners want to change something and call a sparky, sparky notices incorrect work done, some circuits must be replaced for sparky to be 100% sure that there are no more dodgy connections. 
Walls and ceilings must be cut and repaired to install new circuit. 
Total cost of repair work exceeds $50,000.  
If there was a licensed electrical contractor involved, they would have to pay for all repair work. This is for the *life of the installation.* 
Because the DIYer did not report the installation, and it was never checked, they claim not to have ever changed a thing except replacing power points to modern ones. That was done by a sparky, but they forget who???? 
Who pays, The home owner does, Dodgy DIYer gets away scot free and makes money to boot. 
If you can fix it so that that situation does not happen, you will get your DIY electrical license. I know you can't because it happens now and there isn't a license.

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## 2x4

Dodgy work will always be done, not only on the DIY front. Most of my mates/people I know who are involved in working on their own houses invest countless hours researching the workings/install techniques of the various jobs at hand.
No doubt, a slower process of actually getting the job done, but in general, a thorough and well thought out job.
Bad plumbing    = possibible termite activity  =  expensive
Bad carpentry = failing decks/missile style roofs = injury to self and others
Bad landscaping = failing retaining walls = injury to self and others
Bad electrical  = burning houses and families :Tongue:  
All of these have there inherent risks
And most DIYers will do all of these. Cannot stop them , so may as well point them in the right direction. 
Maybe the guys that turn houses over every 6months or so should be regulated/on-site audits at various stages, but again, how do you do this. 
I know.......LETS ALL HELP EACH OTHER. ( maybe on a forum type thing ) :Hooray:  
Too simplistic???

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## autogenous

> Ultimately, I think this issue stems from the fact that electricians have been making good money recently and that's upset a few people who just _had_ to go to uni for the perceived status of it and didn't want to get their hands dirty. Now they're complaining that the shortage of workers caused by this attitude has pushed wages and prices up.

  This is driven by the "cashed up bogan" media banner. Nothing is ever presented about the building industry  which looks like the Australian weather pattern, when it rains it pours then there's a drought. 
Must be a few sparkies looking for work now if not more in the future. 
One of the biggest issues is that most people see the gross amount they hand over isn't the trades take home pay. 
Its a wages mentality and people who have never run their own business dont know the word overheads and that trades especially sparkies are employed on an hourly basis or day to day basis. 
Many university types wrestle their misguided envy when handing over money for a job. 
Many trades probably drink beer as a self medicating anxiety reduction of where the works coming from next week especially now that the so called commodities boom is over.  
Only the self employed understand the word "overheads"

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## Bros

Lets deal with these points on at a time  <label for="rb_optionnumber_1"><input name="optionnumber" value="1" id="rb_optionnumber_1" type="radio">Yes, if I think I can do it.</label> 
I'm sure it makes no difference if the person thinks they can do it they will reguardless of any rules or restrictions. All the fittings are in Bunnings and you can buy them over the counter at any electrical supplier.   <label for="rb_optionnumber_2"><input name="optionnumber" value="2" id="rb_optionnumber_2" type="radio">Yes, if its inspected after I do it.</label> 
Who is going to inspect the work? In Queensland in 1985 the Electical Contractors Association forced the Bjelke Petersen Govenement to remove inspectors so it is now self regulated and I have seen some shocking examples of self regulation.   <label for="rb_optionnumber_3"><input name="optionnumber" value="3" id="rb_optionnumber_3" type="radio">Yes, if I've completed some kind of electrical course.</label> 
The course would have to be the whole of the AS3000 plus any of the "tricks" tradespersons learn over time   <label for="rb_optionnumber_4"><input name="optionnumber" value="4" id="rb_optionnumber_4" type="radio">Yes, if its done under the supervision of a qualified person.</label> 
Well if is done under supervision what is the point of the question   <label for="rb_optionnumber_5"><input name="optionnumber" value="5" id="rb_optionnumber_5" type="radio">Yes, if I'm fully qualified to do so.</label> 
I'm fully qualified to do the work but in Queensland I can't legally do it   <label for="rb_optionnumber_6"><input name="optionnumber" value="6" id="rb_optionnumber_6" type="radio">No.</label> 
No comment needed

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## anawanahuanana

> I have no problem with inspectors checking DIYer installs, as long as I am not paying for it, and the gov't is not funding it. DIYer must pay.

  I am totally for the DIYer paying for his own inspections. Why would anyone expect anything else?    

> The problem is of course that most penny-wise DIYers won't get work inspected because they will see an easy way to save some money.  
> Any legislation must take into account the dumbest and most deceitful DIYer out there. Just because you might follow the rules as perscribed, does not mean someone else will. The legislation must be water tight. 
> If you can come up with a way to ensure absolutely all DIY work is inspected and reported, you will change the law and DIY electrical will be allowed.

  If the DIYer is happy to break the law by not having the inspection done, to save a few bucks, why then do you think that the current system means they wouldn't dream of doing it themselves to save the same or more? If someone is happy to break the law in this regard, they are going to do so. More information and training simply means that those that choose to do so will probably do a safer install. Still illegal, but hopefully it won't mean anyone gets hurt. Is this not a good thing? As for saying the legislation must be water tight! Well, do you think the current legislation is?! The only way to ensure this type of activity is not carried out illegally is to stop all retailers selling all electrical components unless a valid electrical licence is produced. It would also have to make it illegal to sell them online through ebay and the likes, and also not allow overseas suppliers to ship to Oz.    

> Here is a scenario, solve the problem.
> DIYer does some electrical work on their home.
> It is not done right, but it works. (instead of juction box, electrical tape and twitching are used to join short lengths of different size secondhand cable inside walls) 
> They live there happily for another 1 to 10 years at which time the house is sold and new people move in. The renovation is complete and the new owners are happy to have such a modern house. 
> The new owners want to change something and call a sparky, sparky notices incorrect work done, some circuits must be replaced for sparky to be 100% sure that there are no more dodgy connections. 
> Walls and ceilings must be cut and repaired to install new circuit. 
> Total cost of repair work exceeds $50,000.  
> If there was a licensed electrical contractor involved, they would have to pay for all repair work. This is for the *life of the installation.* 
> Because the DIYer did not report the installation, and it was never checked, they claim not to have ever changed a thing except replacing power points to modern ones. That was done by a sparky, but they forget who???? 
> ...

  How is the above scenario any different to what happens now under the current legislation? Everything you have written goes on now.
All a DIY electrical licence will do is take some (the majority in my opinion) of the people who do their own electrical work illegally and train them to do it properly. If they are going to pay the money and time to put themselves through the course and buy a copy of the standards, they are most likely not going to shy away from paying for the inspection after the work is completed. There will still be those who won't pay to do the course, or get the inspections done, but how can it not be better to say that under an improved system, the majority of DIY work will be done to correctly to standards? If a DIY licence system was taken up by half of the people who curently do the work illegally, is that not making only half the number of DIY installations potentially unsafe? 
To say that the system can only be a good thing if absolutely everybody who wants to do their own work takes it up is nonsense, plain and simple. For everone who does, that is one less potentially unsafe installation out there waiting to bite.  :Doh:

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## chrisp

Originally, I thought either: <label for="rb_optionnumber_2"><input name="optionnumber" value="2" id="rb_optionnumber_2" type="radio">Yes, if its inspected after I do it.</label>or     <label for="rb_optionnumber_3"><input name="optionnumber" value="3" id="rb_optionnumber_3" type="radio">Yes, if I've completed some kind of electrical course.</label>As my main issue with the current regulations in Australia is not so much the training, but rather the excessive restriction on the training.  A four-year apprenticeship should not be the only way to obtain a wiring licence. 
I thought that it could be either "inspections" required if the DIYer is untrained/uncertified and perhaps no inspections if the DIYer has some training/certification. 
But thinking about this a bit more, I don't think the USA or NZ require training or inspections? (or do they?).  It seems to me that most DIYers are reasonably sensible - provided they are aware of what is required and why. 
I do a lot of work on my own car which I think is more risky to me and my family than doing electrical work.  With work on my car, I make sure I'm doing the right thing before attempting the work or letting anyone use the car - and I don't need any formal training or certification.  Maybe it should be the same with the electrical work.  The idea of inspections at the time of sale sort of fits with this idea.  To sell a car I have to provide a RWC (regardless of who worked on the car), maybe to sell a house I should need to provide a certificate of electrical compliance?

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## Bloss

The NZ model seems to work very well using the identical standard ANZ3000. Can't see why it wouldn't work here. As with all licensing a proportionate approach based on risk and consequences seems sensible - so work on your own residence might be treated differently to doing work for others (whether paid or not) and doing commercial work of any type treated differently again. 
This article gives a brief description and the relevant NZ government links:  http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_110635/article.html 
Given governments are user pays now, and no-one IMO would want circuits done DIY to be made live without suitable certification, I am not sure how much money would be saved by how many DIYers, but many would choose to DYI to ensure they know what quality was being done and just because they could - and to control the timing of the work. 
USA rules vary by State, with most allowing DIY with certification before being made live. Also are mostly using 110v too - not totally 'safe', but more so than ~240v AUS standard.

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## nev25

> The NZ model seems to work very well using the identical standard ANZ3000. Can't see why it wouldn't work here.

  The thing that you have to understand is (as I just found out) in NZ AS3000 is wiring *standards, not regulations* in the true legislative sense.
New Zealand still has it's own NZ Electricity Regulations and these are totally separate to any Australian regulations or even state-wide laws
This has been discussed with mixed reactions here http://www.electrical-contractor.net...opics/182567/1   

> . 
> $350hr for a qualified sparky is excessive, it is horrendous amount to pay an apprentice.

  As much as I agree with you on the cost (But not seeing the job I cannot comment) the bottom line the job was completed whether it was done by a Tradesman or a trained monkey you paid for the end result not who did it.
IMO you should have reported the Electrician as an apprentice isn't allowed to work unsupervised  

> spend 3 weeks trying to get guys to turn up to do a 5 minute job and change a broken GPO? .

  As much as I agree with your original post 
I have to disagree with the 5 minutes
In reality there is no such thing as a 5 min electrical job
The compulsory tests that have to be done on the completion of ever job normally on an average takes 15min plus on its own
Then there is the Compliance certificate which can take a further 5mins to half an hour 
which incidental here in VIC have to be lodged with ESV within 2 days Via Internet or Phone IVR system (A further 10 mins) 
The 3 week thing cannot comment in country or other states but in Melb ring _Service Central_ or _Alltrades_ they will normal get tradesmen to contact you withing a few days   

> , I am not sure how much money would be saved by how many DIYers, .

  Put it this way
I charge $66/hr (Country Vic) Most Sparkies in Melbourne are $88/Hr (I believe some are More But thats another story) 
The Inspector I use charges me $100 which of course I could guarantee would increase if the DIY electrical work with compulsory.inspection was made reality 
I buy Material at trade price and don't have to get most jobs inspected 
The DIY would pay retail and have ALL jobs inspected
For Example
For me to do Change a Broken GPO as discussed
$66 Plus Approx $10 =$76
For the DIY
$100+ For inspection $20 + for GPO from Bunnings = $120 
And if a course has to be done to allow this They wont be free
For example
For me to do the course to get my open cabling certificate (To install Telephone and data networks) cost somewhere around $700 for a 5 day course  
Makes it an expense GPO  
As Electricians have to indemnify (Guarantee) there work for 11years the DIY homeowner would have to live in the house for 11 years to stop the home owner buying a house renovating and selling or renting
Similar conditions as the owner builder 
Incidentally the Certificate of Electrical safety System was introduced to Stop unlicensed electrical work and I can almost guarantee that the concept of a DIY electrical work outside an Electrical apprenticeship with never happen  
But all in all its an interesting debate

----------


## Terrian

> As much as I agree with you on the cost (But not seeing the job I cannot comment) the bottom line the job was completed whether it was done by a Tradesman or a trained monkey you paid for the end result not who did it.
> IMO you should have reported the Electrician as an apprentice isn't allowed to work unsupervised

  The job has yet to be done, the wanted $$ for the job is considered way to high  :Smilie:

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## Bloss

> The thing that you have to understand is (as I just found out) in NZ AS3000 is wiring *standards, not regulations* in the true legislative sense.
> New Zealand still has it's own NZ Electricity Regulations and these are totally separate to any Australian regulations or even state-wide laws
> This has been discussed with mixed reactions here http://www.electrical-contractor.net...opics/182567/1

  I work in the regulatory policy area and I fully understand the difference. ANZS3000 is set of standards _in both countries_ managed through non-government standards bodies. Primary legislation in both countries describe the work done as having to meet those standards (whoever does the work) and then subordinate legislation (mostly regulations, but other instruments too such as guidelines and codes etc) go into greater detail about how work is to be performed to meet the standards, and describe the licensing of those individuals and/or companies who work in the area, including competency levels, testing and so on. 
That is of little consequence to the fundamental issue - as I said it might well be less costly and more practical to use professionals given all the real costs for certification, insurance and so on to ensure safety (the primary reason for regulatory control at all), but that is no reason why the option should not be available to DIYers here as in NZ. 
The analogy to owner building is a good one - it rarely makes economic sense even for highly competent people (like me who no longer holds a licence), but the option should still be available. 
It might be that with a DIY electrical work (as it is in many states with owner building) there are additional and mandatory certification and/or inspection processes and these ought to be paid for in full by the licensee, but that is a compliance and administrative issue (the set of conditions that need to be applied) - I repeat, not a reason to disallow DIY electrical work. 
I agree with Nev on this though - Australia is unlikely to change anytime soon as the various industry players who are also beneficiaries of restrictive laws are very good lobbyists. 
I'm on me bike now . . .

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## Vernonv

> The Inspector I use charges me $100 which of course I could guarantee would increase if the DIY electrical work with compulsory.inspection was made reality

  Why would that increase?  

> I buy Material at trade price and don't have to get most jobs inspected 
> The DIY would pay retail and have ALL jobs inspected
> For Example
> For me to do Change a Broken GPO as discussed
> $66 Plus Approx $10 =$76
> For the DIY
> $100+ For inspection $20 + for GPO from Bunnings = $120 
> And if a course has to be done to allow this They wont be free
> For example
> ...

  Trade price is a bit of a furfy. When I buy building materials I do not pay retail (and I'm no builder). When I buy plumbing gear I do not pay retail (and I'm no plumber). When I buy electrical gear I do not pay retail (and I'm no electrician). Sure I probably don't get the maximum discount, but I'm certainly not paying double. Ask and you shall receive. 
As far as paying for an inspection, surely they could do everything they needed to get done in one hit and then get the inspection done. That would certainly make the whole exercise cheaper.

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## autogenous

> Trade price is a bit of a furfy. When I buy building materials I do not pay retail (and I'm no builder). When I buy plumbing gear I do not pay retail (and I'm no plumber). When I buy electrical gear I do not pay retail (and I'm no electrician). Sure I probably don't get the maximum discount, but I'm certainly not paying double. Ask and you shall receive.

  Do you get this at Bunnings? 
Many trade prices are based on an ABN and in some cases an account must be held. 
Theres that little margin on things like cement its a pointless issue. 
Power points however  :Smilie:  How much are they $15 ? You can buy computer keyboards for that much  :Smilie:

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## Vernonv

> Do you get this at Bunnings?

  No, the closest bunnings is over 100km away.  

> Many trade prices are based on an ABN and in some cases an account must be held.

  This is where I disagree (for the most part). If I ask for trade price (or ask for a "decent" price) I normally get it (often well below retail). But I'm sure I don't get the same discount as the guy/business that spends $100 000's a year at the place. But it still can be quite substantial.  

> Theres that little margin on things like cement its a pointless issue. 
> Power points however  How much are they $15 ? You can buy computer keyboards for that much

  OK here is a recent example from a plumbing place (sorry haven't bought anything electrical in a while) ... taken from the receipt ... no account, cash sale ... all ex gst : 
Hard drawn type B copper pipe 1/2" 6m length - Retail $53.10, I got it for $33.30. That's almost 40% discount. I'm happy.

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## bricks

> Hard drawn type B copper pipe 1/2" 6m length - Retail $53.10, I got it for $33.30. That's almost 40% discount. I'm happy.

  Just chiming in, 15mm type b costs me $19.20.
Most of my suppliers give me 45% discount minimum. I do however work for a very large company.

----------


## Vernonv

> Just chiming in, 15mm type b costs me $19.20.
> Most of my suppliers give me 45% discount minimum. I do however work for a very large company.

  Like I said Bricks, I don't expect the same discount as the big boys, but I wonder what the normal local small time plumber in Armidale would pay for the same. 
My point is though, that simply asking for a discount, I managed to get nearly 40% off retail - certainly narrows the gap between the trade and non-trade price.

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## Terrian

> $100+ For inspection $20 + for GPO from Bunnings = $120

  dbl gpo & mount = less than $7  :Smilie:  
though $6m for 6mm cable seemed a little steep.

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## elkangorito

C'mon guys! There's "retail price", "list price" & a discount structure thereafter. 
Retail price is the most expensive. When somebody tells you, "I'll take 10% off", you need to ask, "10% off what?" 
"Retail" means to "anybody & everybody". "List" means to anybody that has a "list", i.e. a pricing catalog (usually given to people working in the field & who have an account with the supplier). For places like Bunnings that primarily serve the public, "list" price is "retail" price (as per the newspapers etc). For an electrical wholesaler, they may or may not be benevolent in this regard. They may have a similar pricing structure to that of Bunnings but they also will have other pricing structures according to your "buying power" & your account structure (if you have an account). 
If you aren't "in the game" as such, you may not be getting the discount that you think you are getting. Unless you have very good friends (& I hope their manger is very understanding), you will not be getting a "great" discount from the likes of Bunnings. If you buy in bulk, expect some sort of a discount. 
I'm sure others will agree to this.

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## elkangorito

A VERY interesting thread from an American website...well worth the read. 
"http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=34363"

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## watson

Your way off the topic fellers.....the topic is "Should DIY Domestic Electrical Work be allowed in Australia"...not pricing and discounting. 
Please conform. 
Noel Watson *Administrator*

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## Terrian

> Your way off the topic fellers.....the topic is "Should DIY Domestic Electrical Work be allowed in Australia"...not pricing and discounting. 
> Please conform. 
> Noel Watson *Administrator*

  party pooper  :Smilie:

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## watson

Its a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## Terrian

> Its a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it

  yeah yeah, but should domestic electrical DIY be allowed in Oz ?  :Smilie:

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## Make it work

Say you built a brick wall 2 metres tall as DIY, and poor design or procedure caused it to fall, it could be fatal. But it was legal to do it. 
Say you built your own house frame and it came down when the roof tiles went on, it could be fatal. But it was legal to do it. 
Say you were silly enough to try to put up a small tin shed on a windy day and a sheet got away and came down edge first in the neighbours yard, it could be fatal. But it was legal to do it. 
You could get killed or seriously hurt digging a hole if the side caved in on you. 
What is so different with electrical or plumbing.  
If the right info or help was available to make an electrical plan, submit it for approval to some electrical authority, with details like cable type and size specified as well as details of distances and intended loads and it was  inspected before it was used then why the hell not! 
Obviously there would need to be limitations in the same way as an owner builder can't build a 100 story building but this is a discussion and I think there should be some DIY electrical work allowed to be done by unlicensed persons with the right support from the authorities or the trade. 
That's 2 cents + GST thanks

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## Terrian

I did some electrical work at my house today.

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## Make it work

> I did some electrical work at my house today.

  And you lived by the look of it.

----------


## bricks

> Say you built a brick wall 2 metres tall as DIY, and poor design or procedure caused it to fall, it could be fatal. But it was legal to do it.

  Building inspector should pick this up a time of sale, council plans if not updated would indicate new wall/ probably be fined by council, possibly need to rectify before sale. you only hurt yourself.   

> Say you built your own house frame and it came down when the roof tiles went on, it could be fatal. But it was legal to do it.

  You would need owner builder registration to do this, therefore the injury/ damage is traceable back to you. For dodgy work you are liable for the life of the structure.   

> Say you were silly enough to try to put up a small tin shed on a windy day and a sheet got away and came down edge first in the neighbours yard, it could be fatal. But it was legal to do it.

  When the ambulance comes they would call the police/ council inspectors who would find out where it came from and you would be liable.     

> You could get killed or seriously hurt digging a hole if the side caved in on you.

  Once again you hurt yourself, or if you hurt others you are easily to blame.  

> What is so different with electrical or plumbing.

  The difference is that elec/ plumbing is hidden, and it can go for years and years before injury or damage occur or in the case of water damage, the damage to the structure of your house might go un-noticed until the house is beyond repair. If this is done by a licensed tradesman the job is traceable for the life of the installation, you and the people you might sell your house to are protected by the liscence system.    

> If the right info or help was available to make an electrical plan, submit it for approval to some electrical authority, with details like cable type and size specified as well as details of distances and intended loads and it was  inspected before it was used then why the hell not!

  No problem here but be prepared to pay for it,    

> Obviously there would need to be limitations in the same way as an owner builder can't build a 100 story building but this is a discussion and I think there should be some DIY electrical work allowed to be done by unlicensed persons with the right support from the authorities or the trade.

  Trade won't help, because it's counter productive for business to give your work away for free. Any support you do get will cost you money.   

> That's 2 cents + GST thanks

  + 20% markup and a 5% administration fee. 
As long as there is a foolproof system making the installer of plumbing/ electrical systems accountable for their work and whatever damage/ injury it causes, then there can be DIY work allowed. The problem that honest people face is that we are always going to be penalised through legislation designed to control the dishonest/ stupid members of our society. 
This is why you can owner build, it is almost impossible for someone to build a house/ large extension without someone noticing. Internal changes, small Diy jobs, no one will ever know who has done it. 
If you want to DIY, and you want to lobby your local authority, do it. Be prepared to pay some fees, and to atleast start to plan some sort of system for controling/ recording the work. You need to protect not only yourself, but anyone else who uses and definately anyone else who buys the property you have worked on.  
Cheers.

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## Terrian

> And you lived by the look of it.

  apparently I did  :Smilie:

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## elkangorito

> Building inspector should pick this up a time of sale, council plans if not updated would indicate new wall/ probably be fined by council, possibly need to rectify before sale. you only hurt yourself.   You would need owner builder registration to do this, therefore the injury/ damage is traceable back to you. For dodgy work you are liable for the life of the structure.   When the ambulance comes they would call the police/ council inspectors who would find out where it came from and you would be liable.    Once again you hurt yourself, or if you hurt others you are easily to blame.  The difference is that elec/ plumbing is hidden, and it can go for years and years before injury or damage occur or in the case of water damage, the damage to the structure of your house might go un-noticed until the house is beyond repair. If this is done by a licensed tradesman the job is traceable for the life of the installation, you and the people you might sell your house to are protected by the liscence system.    No problem here but be prepared to pay for it,    Trade won't help, because it's counter productive for business to give your work away for free. Any support you do get will cost you money.   + 20% markup and a 5% administration fee. 
> As long as there is a foolproof system making the installer of plumbing/ electrical systems accountable for their work and whatever damage/ injury it causes, then there can be DIY work allowed. The problem that honest people face is that we are always going to be penalised through legislation designed to control the dishonest/ stupid members of our society. 
> This is why you can owner build, it is almost impossible for someone to build a house/ large extension without someone noticing. Internal changes, small Diy jobs, no one will ever know who has done it. 
> If you want to DIY, and you want to lobby your local authority, do it. Be prepared to pay some fees, and to atleast start to plan some sort of system for controling/ recording the work. You need to protect not only yourself, but anyone else who uses and definately anyone else who buys the property you have worked on.  
> Cheers.

  Bloody good post bricks :2thumbsup:

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## Bros

I think we have reached the point in our society where the never ending rules, regulations etc are counter productive. Nearly everything in our society seems to be regulated and people now look at rules and regulations with contempt.
More people than ever are now drink driving, more people speeding, the not using mobile phones is a joke, people lose their licence and continue to drive.
People know the rules and think I can do that and take the risk so it is done and the case also applies with DIY.
I would take a guess and say almost everyone viewing or posting would have the same attitude and conciously ignore one or more of the rules and regulations we have in society at some time or other.

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## Terrian

Well, I have just pulled 25m of (coax) cable thru orange conduit that is now buried 700mm underground,  This apparently not legal, yes or no ?

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## nev25

> Well, I have just pulled 25m of (coax) cable thru orange conduit that is now buried 700mm underground, This apparently not legal, yes or no ?

  
Depends what its being used for???

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## Vernonv

> This apparently not legal, yes or no ?

  It's perfectly legal, just don't connect anything to it. :Biggrin:  
Seriously though, I don't know ... but sometime ignorance is bliss.

----------


## Ausyuppy

> Well, I have just pulled 25m of (coax) cable thru orange conduit that is now buried 700mm underground,  This apparently not legal, yes or no ?

  If you plan to use it for telecommunications, no it is not legal. It must be in white conduit. However it seems that coax for TV installations doesnt seem to be regulated. ACMA dont regulate this.

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## 2x4

300mm would have done it

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## nev25

It is illegal for a home user to install their own *PERMANENT* data/telephony cabling. 
The operative word is permanent. You are allowed to string ethernet cabling along the floor/wall etc, but as soon as it goes into a wall cavity or a conduit between your house and your shed, you need to employ a licensed data cabler.

----------


## montiee

> It is illegal for a home user to install their own *PERMANENT* data/telephony cabling. 
> The operative word is permanent. You are allowed to string ethernet cabling along the floor/wall etc, but as soon as it goes into a wall cavity or a conduit between your house and your shed, you need to employ a licensed data cabler.

  That might be a state by state thing but  as far as I'm aware for NSW as long as the cabling does not hook up to telecoms services *directly* then you can run whatever data cabling you like in your wall cavities. However if you where to directly then link that cabling to say your phone line then there would be a problem because there is no isolation to 3rd party gear which you may harm. It's usually a moot point since it's so obvious how it should be wired just by looking at the existing sockets it's trivial. 
Personally it's all a farce. If you can do temporary wiring then there is no reason why you can't have permanent wiring. What all of a sudden if it's behind a wall the cable plays silly buggers but if it isn't then it's well behaved because it knows you are looking at it and it can't get away with anything?. The whole thing is ridiculous quite frankly and it's no wonder why people ignore it. I certainly do.

----------


## nev25

> That might be a state by state thing.

  
Nope AS/ACIF 2009 and 2008 is Australian Wide    

> long as the cablin but as far as I'm aware for NSW asg does not hook up to telecoms services *directly* then you can run whatever data cabling you like in your wall cavities. 
> .

  So what you are saying is if you permanently install a comms cable in a wall for instance and put plugs on the ends 
The next person who comes along wants to directly connect it is going to Rip it out of the wall and get someone to run it again when its already there
I Don't think so   

> It's usually a moot point since it's so obvious how it should be wired just by looking at the existing sockets it's trivial..

  Yeah its not rocket science but I see Phone sockets wired back the front regularly   

> Personally it's all a farce. If you can do temporary wiring then there is no reason why you can't have permanent wiring. ..

  As I stated above the ACMA take the stand point the it has the Potential of becoming 
Hard connected   

> The whole thing is ridiculous quite frankly and it's no wonder why people ignore it. I certainly do.

  Thats OK until you get caught or something goes wrong 
Damage to network assets by anyone usually results in someone being sued 
As I said Don't shoot the messenger I'm just answering the question  
I'm alls curious as to why someone would run Coax such a distance underground??

----------


## montiee

> So what you are saying is if you permanently install a comms cable in a wall for instance and put plugs on the ends 
> The next person who comes along wants to directly connect it is going to Rip it out of the wall and get someone to run it again when its already there
> I Don't think so

  Of course not. Why would they need to. It would just work as well for them as for the previous person. Since datacomms have no high voltage power running down the lines there is no problem. An industry likes to protect it's members and that is all that is essentially what is being done here. Otherwise they couldn't charge for the cabling courses etc. Most "cablers" before they head off already know how to wire up the cable. They just need to jump through the certificate hoop. It's crazy.    

> As I stated above the ACMA take the stand point the it has the Potential of becoming 
> Hard connected

  The ACMA are a bunch of tools. Seriously if it works when it's temporarily connected it's going to work in a permanent connected state. The argument is farsical. No power is running down data-comms (well except the phone) but as I said if you have an existing plug it's not rocket science to match to wires to the pins.  
Wouldn't surprise me if the mistakes you see are done by commercial installers apprentices not being supervised correctly anyway. Most people don't touch phone sockets and those that do generally copy work that was already there and guess who did that, yep a certified installer :lol:.    

> Thats OK until you get caught or something goes wrong 
> Damage to network assets by anyone usually results in someone being sued

  I'll take my chances. If a year 10 graduate can cable up some stuff most of us can work it out pretty easily and have. Plenty of detailed guides on the net anyway thankfully. 
Anyway you are welcome to issue the warnings but I know what's involved and quite frankly I can't think of it as anything except industry protectionalism for it's members. Datacomms cabling is at best trivial.

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## nev25

As I said   

> Don't shoot the messenger I'm just answering the question

----------


## Terrian

> If you plan to use it for telecommunications, no it is not legal. It must be in white conduit. However it seems that coax for TV installations doesnt seem to be regulated. ACMA dont regulate this.

  but but but, I was given the orange conduit, and seeing as how I am not allowed to hook up electrical cable....   

> 300mm would have done it

  but there was this trench, about 1m deep  :Smilie:  
BTW, cable is for a security camera.

----------


## 2x4

> An industry likes to protect it's members and that is all that is essentially what is being done here. Otherwise they couldn't charge for the cabling courses etc. Most "cablers" before they head off already know how to wire up the cable. They just need to jump through the certificate hoop. It's crazy.

  Is this not the same for most, if not all trades. ( I am proud that an industry wants to look after its members ) any industy!!!!! 
Granted .... it is not rocket science, but there are rules and regs to abide by. Not only for an uncorrupted data stream, but also safety issues. 
The industry on a whole IMO does not really give a toss about the DIYer. But if that same DIYer wants to profit from such activities, they need to know what they are doing.
Knowing the corect procedures and installation practices is often referred to as "quality workmanship" or "tradesman like manner" etc. etc. 
Any monkey can toss cables around a roof space and make sh*t work :No:

----------


## Bros

> BTW, cable is for a security camera.

  
Er got to have a licence to do that as well.

----------


## montiee

> Any monkey can toss cables around a roof space and make sh*t work

  Are you talking about qualified tradespeople because it sounds like it. Had a good laugh at what one bloke I hired in to do some rewiring a few years back tried to do. Looked like a dogs breakfast the way wires were laying about in the roof cavity. I threw him out and told him if he wanted to take his wiring with him he was more than welcome because I wasn't going to pay a cent. I took photos and all ready for a battle. Bastard even destroyed the termination point that was setup previously by a separate guy who installed the meters just so he could charge more. How do I know because I went up on the roof and examined everything before he started and that definitely wasn't in the state it was after he tampered with it. I reported him but checked a few months later and he was still working. Fully licensed too.  
The industry protects it's members but it doesn't protect consumers. It's all just an act. You'd have to do something exceptionally stupid to get your license revoked. 
I recently got a shock when I went under the house and had a look at the rats nest that the Optus and tv antenna guy created under there. No joke it was a friggin joke. Unfortunately I'm a bit too large to comfortably fit under there but next tradie that goes under my house I'll be sticking my head under to make sure that mess is not recreated. 
I laugh at you guys who think that a professional does a proper job. I've had so many in that did subpar work thinking they'd get away with it because hardly anyone checks them that it's laughable. No paying more doesn't seem to matter much. Tried that already.  
I find the best blokes (tradies to employ) are apprentices who have just left and started for their own business. They seem to produce the best results. The old salty dogs are the worst. 
Like they say. Want a job done properly, do it yourself. Plenty of resources on the net these days to do a job even better than a pro would because it's your own place and you can spend the time.

----------


## montiee

> Er got to have a licence to do that as well.

  Yep another one of those idiocies. Feel free to do it yourself. It's a simple job too. Recently did it for my parents.
Basically these days you need a license to flush the toilet it seems.

----------


## nev25

> The industry protects it's members  
> I laugh at you guys who think that a professional does a proper job. I've had so many in that did subpar work thinking they'd get away with it because hardly anyone checks them that it's laughable. .

  Obviously Things are different here in VIC

----------


## elkangorito

My comments in blue.   

> Are you talking about qualified tradespeople because it sounds like it. Had a good laugh at what one bloke I hired in to do some rewiring a few years back tried to do. Looked like a dogs breakfast the way wires were laying about in the roof cavity. I threw him out and told him if he wanted to take his wiring with him he was more than welcome because I wasn't going to pay a cent. I took photos and all ready for a battle. Bastard even destroyed the termination point that was setup previously by a separate guy who installed the meters just so he could charge more. How do I know because I went up on the roof and examined everything before he started and that definitely wasn't in the state it was after he tampered with it. I reported him but checked a few months later and he was still working. Fully licensed too. Did you take this matter to the Dept of Fair Trading?  
> I laugh at you guys who think that a professional does a proper job. I've had so many in that did subpar work thinking they'd get away with it because hardly anyone checks them that it's laughable. No paying more doesn't seem to matter much. Tried that already. Hypothetical job I do for you.
> Assumptions:
> 1] The job - it will take 3 hours for a "rough" job. I will not do a "rough" job.
> 2] I charge $80.00 per hour. So does everybody else.
> 3] I am more than happy for you to inspect my work & take photos etc, upon completion.
> 4] I take 50% longer to do the job. i.e. 4.5 hours as opposed to 3 hours. I did a quotation for you prior to commencing the job, which showed my 4.5 hours of labour. Even though others quoted a lower labour period, you choose me because of 1] & 3] above.
> 5] You are fully aware of the existence of the Dept of Fair Trading. 
> If you are happy with the work I did, will you pay my bill? ($120 more expensive than the others plus I'll be interfering with you & your house for a longer period - inconvenience may occur). 
> Like they say. Want a job done properly, do it yourself. *Plenty of resources on the net* these days to do a job even better than a pro would because it's your own place and you can spend the time. Be very careful about this. Make sure that the "stuff" you find on the net, pertains to Australian Electrical regs. For instance, some time ago, a guy on this forum posted info about earthing your welder/garage. He quoted American standards, which do not apply here. Had I not intervened, people may have been injured.

   
In addition, "permanent wiring" is usually where it cannot easily be seen. As such, AS3000:2007 specifies minimum installation requirements. See clause 3.9.8.4 "Proximity to non-electrical services, part (c)".
NOTE: AS/ACIF S009 contains distances and other measures for the separation of telecommunications cables from low voltage cables as follows—
(a) on surfaces or concealed in walls, floors or ceilings, such as depicted in Figure 3.8;
(b) cables in common ducting;
(c) in underground trenches, such as depicted in Figures 3.8 and 3.9;
(d) under-carpet wiring; and
(e) aerial cables. 
What could happen if a "live" low voltage wire came into contact with your telecommunications wiring? 
If you feel that by doing your own work, you are "getting even" with industry protectionists, please remember that "two wrongs do not make a right". 
Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of AS/ACIF S009, otherwise I'd give you some direction about this matter. If I was in your shoes, I would make sure that ALL telecommunications/data cables were well away from other low voltage cables. If you are not sure of what you are doing, ask for help. Help may just be forthcoming if you present clear & concise facts, as well as being "nice" about it. I understand the "bad taste" left in your mouth about previous bad work you've had done but this does not preclude you from trying to do the job in a proper fashion. Just because "it works" does not mean that the job was done properly.

----------


## Terrian

> I'm alls curious as to why someone would run Coax such a distance underground??

  Because I don't want to have it from roof top to roof top or attached to the paling fence.

----------


## Terrian

> Er got to have a licence to do that as well.

  bugger. 
guess I had better not tell anyone then !

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## Terrian

> Yep another one of those idiocies. Feel free to do it yourself. It's a simple job too. Recently did it for my parents.

  yep, camera mounted, attach cable to camera (bnc) attach other end of cable to control box thingy (bnc)   

> Basically these days you need a license to flush the toilet it seems.

   :Eek:  bugger x 2

----------


## Terrian

> Obviously Things are different here in VIC

  pathetic, biggest fine was  $2,202.

----------


## bricks

Obviously, according to this thread there are people who will always do their own DIY regardless of the consequences.
Obviously, according to this thread there are people who think all DIY should be banned. 
Personally I could'nt give a hoot if you do your own DIY properly, and it is done to code. If you don't know what your doing then dont do it.
The thing that really bugs me are people who like some clown in this thread, do their own work and obviously have no clue what needs to be done, and really don't care enough to chack the regs. These are the people who cause death and disablement. 
I originally joined these forums for the sole reason that I wanted to be able to answer questions about plumbing/ building and small electrical projects properly, to give people proper, sound and safe advise. After all, I know that DIYer's will always do there own work if they want because they are to cheap/ stubborn to pay for it. 
Since joining the forums I have given advise to some people who take it and ask more questions and.. in the end do what they think is the good option. I have also given advise to people who really don't want to hear the correct answer because they don't care or don't want to hear the bad news. (if I had it my way I'd report every one of those).

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## watson

I've been watching with interest how this thread has evolved.
For & against..to and fro........interesting debate.
I'm unlicensed.
But I can legally buy a kit from several sources to convert 12V DC to 240V AC (an inverter)
I don't need a license to do so, yet I can wire up the 240V side of the inverter, connect it to the GPO output of the equipment, following the instructions that come with the kit.
From that GPO........(having got that far, and everything works correctly, and is tested as per instructions)....I cannot legally continue wiring that 240V unless via an extension lead.
Not a hypothetical.....but how do you feel about that????

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## nev25

> I've been watching with interest how this thread has evolved.
> For & against..to and fro........interesting debate.
> I'm unlicensed.
> But I can legally buy a kit from several sources to convert 12V DC to 240V AC (an inverter)
> I don't need a license to do so, yet I can wire up the 240V side of the inverter, connect it to the GPO output of the equipment, following the instructions that come with the kit.
> From that GPO........(having got that far, and everything works correctly, and is tested as per instructions)....I cannot legally continue wiring that 240V unless via an extension lead.
> Not a hypothetical.....but how do you feel about that????

  Yeah you raise an interesting scenario 
I did my apprenticeship with what was the SECV (State Electricity Commission of Victoria)
Back then (not sure if it still stands) the supply authority was not bound by AS3000
it was only a guide but had our inhouse regulations 
When all the various sections where privatized we then had to follow AS3000 to the letter (rules inspections etc) as the sections I was with was no longer the generating Authority. 
In your case you are technically the generating Authority 
If this regulation still applys it raises an interesting question when we look at remoter areas that only have solar or wind and are not connected to the grid. 
Also the question of safety and insurance 
Will report back with some finding (hopefully)

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## watson

Thanks Nev,
It's just one of those things.....anomoly....(spell checker still checking.)
I Rue the day that the SEC ceased to exist.

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## chrisp

> Not a hypothetical.....but how do you feel about that????

  Noel, 
You are providing an example of the inconsistency in the Australian regulations.   
Following on from your example, I'm one of those people who can design an inverter as I'm a professional engineer (and I regularly work with grid-connected inverters).  I have been asked to provide professional advice to a major electrical generator who was trying determine who caused their generator to suddenly fail; I also provided advice to the defense department on very high powered electronic equipment. 
In short, I probably do know what I'm doing in electrical matters.  However, the only way that I can legally do any fixed wiring in Australia is to do a full 4-year apprenticeship - there are no exemptions for having professional qualifications regardless of the fact I probably know much more about electrical matters than a typical electrician. 
So back to your question, "how do you feel?".  Well, I feel fairly p*** off with the Australian regulations that are primarily designed as a form of industry protection. 
BTW, this is nothing to do with _standards_ (AS/NZS 3000) as NZ allow DIY wiring to the same standards as in Australia.  The problem in Australia is the _regulations_. 
I'm also pleased that we are allowed, and having, this discussion on this forum.  :Smilie:

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## watson

> I'm also pleased that we are allowed, and having, this discussion on this forum.

  Thanks chrisp,
I figure from the Admin side of things, that as long as nobody gets into stuff like, "you connect the green wire to..... etc," that we are having a very legal "forum" discussion on the limits allowed by the regs.
As we've seen from quotes from regs in this discussion...."bugger all" seems to be the rule, but having spent most of my working life as an installer of things like 50Kw transmitters/main frame computer systems/ power reticulation grids etc, all of a sudden, I'm no longer allowed to do these things.
I'm not advocating that anyone should be allowed to do electrical installation, but I feel that people qualified far and above the requirements for an electricians' license should be allowed access to some form of "ticket", even if the work has to be checked by someone with a tie and a clip-board.........(do they have a licence??) 
That will cost you all Two Cents. 
Regards,
Noel

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## elkangorito

As usual, my comments in blue.   

> I've been watching with interest how this thread has evolved.
> For & against..to and fro........interesting debate.
> I'm unlicensed.
> But I can legally buy a kit from several sources to convert 12V DC to 240V AC (an inverter)
> I don't need a license to do so, yet I can wire up the 240V side of the inverter, connect it to the GPO output of the equipment, following the instructions that come with the kit.
> From that GPO........(having got that far, and everything works correctly, and is tested as per instructions)....I cannot legally continue wiring that 240V unless via an extension lead.
> Not a hypothetical.....but how do you feel about that????

  The only discerning factor here is the lack of permanent wiring, if you use an extension lead. Of course, you may electrocute yourself if you are careless or you do not know what you are doing (I'm sure you do know what you are doing). Nonetheless, if you installed such a thing as "permanent wiring", who is to know of any future problems you may have created, especially if you sell your house?    

> Noel, 
> You are providing an example of the inconsistency in the Australian regulations.   
> Following on from your example, I'm one of those people who can design an inverter as I'm a professional engineer (and I regularly work with grid-connected inverters).  I have been asked to provide professional advice to a major electrical generator who was trying determine who caused their generator to suddenly fail; I also provided advice to the defense department on very high powered electronic equipment. 
> In short, I probably do know what I'm doing in electrical matters.  However, the only way that I can legally do any fixed wiring in Australia is to do a full 4-year apprenticeship - there are no exemptions for having professional qualifications regardless of the fact I probably know much more about electrical matters than a typical electrician. 
> So back to your question, "how do you feel?".  Well, I feel fairly p*** off with the Australian regulations that are primarily designed as a form of industry protection. 
> BTW, this is nothing to do with _standards_ (AS/NZS 3000) as NZ allow DIY wiring to the same standards as in Australia.  The problem in Australia is the _regulations_. 
> I'm also pleased that we are allowed, and having, this discussion on this forum.

  Chrisp, I have little doubt in my mind that you would do a good job of wiring in your own home, particularly because you are aware of the "Standards" involved & that you are a professional engineer (electronics?). As you already know, I fully endorse the idea of electrical DIY in Australia. I think that "over-protection" incites dumbness & laziness...also a lack of responsibility. It's about time "responsibility" was handed back to "the people" & the "authorities" actually did something, besides sit behind a desk checking for who they could fine/prosecute etc. Safety has always been a "hands on" thing & since "deregulation", safety has taken a back seat & profit has taken over. 
Electrical safety is not only about voltage & overload current, it's also about "fault current". Sadly, very few electricians of whom I'm aware, are knowledgeable about "fault current". This "fault current" is of primary concern to switchboard design engineers (me) & is also very important in domestic installations. I've even had to change many drawings produced by degreed engineers because they didn't really understand "fault current". Just to fill you in, "fault current" is something that can do massive damage in a very short period of time (1 second or less) if it is not controlled properly. I do notice that AS3000:2007 pays good attention to the fault current...AS3008 more so. The standard for switchboard design (if you're interested) is AS3439 (IEC439). It was formerly AS1136.1 but was updated to European Standards quite a while ago.     

> Thanks chrisp,
> I figure from the Admin side of things, that as long as nobody gets into stuff like, "you connect the green wire to..... etc," that we are having a very legal "forum" discussion on the limits allowed by the regs.
> As we've seen from quotes from regs in this discussion...."bugger all" seems to be the rule, but having spent most of my working life as an installer of things like 50Kw transmitters/main frame computer systems/ power reticulation grids etc, all of a sudden, I'm no longer allowed to do these things.
> I'm not advocating that anyone should be allowed to do electrical installation, but I feel that people qualified far and above the requirements for an electricians' license should be allowed access to some form of "ticket", even if the work has to be checked by someone with a tie and a clip-board.........(do they have a licence??) 
> That will cost you all Two Cents. 
> Regards,
> Noel

  I agree with you Noel & I also feel that inspections (like as in NZ) are absolutely necessary under *ALL* circumstances...even if the work has been done by a licensed electrician. It's about time inspectors were brought back to check *ALL* electrical work done, as it was in the good old days before deregulation.
I also feel that ALL electricians need to FULLY understand that amazing thing called "fault current". I know I rave on about this but to me it is a critical thing to understand.

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## chrisp

> Just to fill you in, "fault current" is something that can do massive damage in a very short period of time (1 second or less) if it is not controlled properly. I do notice that AS3000:2007 pays good attention to the fault current...AS3008 more so. The standard for switchboard design (if you're interested) is AS3439 (IEC439). It was formerly AS1136.1 but was updated to European Standards quite a while ago.

  elkangorito, 
I'll look up AS3439 when I'm back at work and have a read up on fault currents.  (There is always something to brush up on  :Smilie:  ). 
I have done some fault current work in the engineering course.  The type of stuff we did was working out the fault currents in the power grid should a line fault occur (such as short to earth or short to line). 
BTW, I'm actually a "Electrical and Computer Systems" engineer but I majored in electronics and computing.

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## Smurf

> Following on from your example, I'm one of those people who can design an inverter as I'm a professional engineer (and I regularly work with grid-connected inverters). I have been asked to provide professional advice to a major electrical generator who was trying determine who caused their generator to suddenly fail; I also provided advice to the defense department on very high powered electronic equipment. 
> In short, I probably do know what I'm doing in electrical matters. However, the only way that I can legally do any fixed wiring in Australia is to do a full 4-year apprenticeship - there are no exemptions for having professional qualifications regardless of the fact I probably know much more about electrical matters than a typical electrician.

  In principle I agree with what you are saying. 
But in practice I've dealt with plenty of electrical and related engineers and most of them don't seem to have a practical working knowledge of how to actually do the work. They are very good at quoting rules etc but don't seem very practical in terms of actually doing the job. 
I'll acknowledge that you may well be an exception, but I've found this situation many times so it's not unusual. 
Agreed with what you are saying about fault currents though. It's almost universally overlooked in practice on small installations.

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## Bros

> Agreed with what you are saying about fault currents though. It's almost universally overlooked in practice on small installations.

  Not worth worring about in small domestic installations. Where it important and very very dangerous in industrial applications. I've worked all my life in Power Stations and the fault current levels there are enormous and I have seen some very expensive examples of it. 
It would be correct to assume that someone who wires houses for living and then moves to an industrial plant MUST understand the implications of fault current. 
Many years ago two electricians using a multimeter to measure voltage across two 415v busbars at a mine died due to fact they had their meter set to Amps not volts. They died from burns. If you did the same in a domestic situation you would end up with a fried multimeter.

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## chrisp

> In principle I agree with what you are saying. 
> But in practice I've dealt with plenty of electrical and related engineers and most of them don't seem to have a practical working knowledge of how to actually do the work. They are very good at quoting rules etc but don't seem very practical in terms of actually doing the job.

  Smurf, 
I accept your concerns about practical experience/ability and I personally would happily do whatever assessment was required to prove competency - but the existing system doesn't allow me to do so unless I do a full 4-year apprenticeship beforehand. 
On a slightly different aspect, my engineering qualifications are recognised by the IEEE in New York.  In effect my qualifications would be recognised in most countries around the world without any further examination.  i.e I could work in almost any country in the world with my qualifications. 
It seems very strange that in trade side of the industry there is very little, or no, recognition of trade qualifications other than those done locally.  While I can imagine that there will be proponents of this system, I wonder if their support is misplaced.  I hope the proponents don't find themselves in a position where they need to change careers or to move to another locality that doesn't recognise their hard earned qualifications.

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## Smurf

> I agree with you Noel & I also feel that inspections (like as in NZ) are absolutely necessary under *ALL* circumstances...even if the work has been done by a licensed electrician. It's about time inspectors were brought back to check *ALL* electrical work done, as it was in the good old days before deregulation.

  I can see your point but consider the perspective of an householder, small business owner etc.  
If I'm the home owner then I've already been put to the inconvenience of having the work done in the first place. I'm not going to take another day off work, wait around etc for some inspector to turn up. At the very least, the inspector needs to turn up at the same time the work is done (literally the same time, not an hour later) or at a time of my choosing - and if that's 3am on Sunday morning then so be it, I'm the customer. 
I think a better option is a random inspections and a rating system and force disclosure of this to the customer before work commences. So each electrician gets a 1- 10 rating based on passing past inspections and is forced to disclose this to ALL customers BEFORE work commences. Anyone who consistently fails inspections will, in practice, find themselves out of the industry since your average homeowner isn't going to want a 2/10 electrician anywhere near the place and no contractor with any sense would employ them. That ought to lift standards rather quickly.

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## watson

I remember the day we got the electricity put onto our rural property....probably 16 years ago.
There was the electrician and his boys working on the switchboard, two installers from the supply authority, and the inspector. 
All arrived at 1hour intervals and everything worked out fine time wise, except.....as the electrician left he said I needed to install a power point and a light before the inspector got there.
The inspector arrived to witness me running cable from the board and screwing in a power point and a light fitting.
My wife took him on the "visitors tour", and when he came back to test and inspect I was nowhere to be found. (hiding....pretending to have been one of the electricians)
He inspected and tested........and his only comment was as he left..."tell your bloke he's too bloody neat".
He can come and inspect my stuff any day. 
Just posted as a "feel good" snippet in the debate.

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## Vernonv

Smurf, that rating system sounds like an interesting idea. It would surely lift the overall skill/professionalism level of electricians. Lets just hope that the government steps up and ensures that there are plenty of opportunities and resources for apprentices coming up through the ranks the replace the poorly rated sparkies (actually I wish the government would step up anyway). 
Watson, at least you didn't have to fault find for the supply authority guys. We had some sparking of the wires at the top of our pole where the wires come to our house (after they go through a meter box on the pole - rural property). Anyway the guys came out and "fixed it". About a week later I noticed that the off-peak breaker was off - strange, we still had hot water. Turned it back on. A week later is was off again. This time when I turned it on it sparked and turn off immediately.
Got the supply guys back and told them that they had shorted the off peak and it's opposing phase (split phase) at the top of the pole - "We certainly wouldn't have done that!". Well they fixed it and went on their way - without telling what actually was wrong. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): .
Then a few weeks later we noticed that the lights weren't working. Working back to the fault source I realised that when the fixed the initial problem, they had actually swapped the off peak and one of the phases (and the off peak was currently off). Needless to say again our HWS was running on normal tariff and the lights (and oven) where running on full tariff. They came back out and I told them what the problem was - "We certainly wouldn't have done that!". Again they fixed it and went on their way - again without telling us what was wrong. Oh well all fixed, but we had a hell of a electricity bill for that period.

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## watson

Gasp!!   :Shock:  
At least I didn't have to fault find, but the supply guys did the worst installation job I'd ever seen.........(according to the standards I was taught) .......nothing straight down the pole.......transformer at an angle...........Tails to the transformer at very different lengths.....etc.
Should have had the inspector check their work  :Biggrin:

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## dazzler

When I was in timor the power to our house was very intermittent - 2-3 hrs a day 3 or 4 days a week.  In the meantime we had a generator to supply power. 
Spoke to the power man and while one bloke was at the power station making sure it was turned off (diesel off) we disconnected the wires from the fuse box and put a male 15amp plug on the fuse box side and female on the street side.  When the power was off we plugged the gen into the house, when it was on we plugged the street power in.  
Had to keep the beer cold  :Tongue:

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## watson

:Rotfl:

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## montiee

> Hypothetical job I do for you.
> Assumptions:
> 1] The job - it will take 3 hours for a "rough" job. I will not do a "rough" job.
> 2] I charge $80.00 per hour. So does everybody else.
> 3] I am more than happy for you to inspect my work & take photos etc, upon completion.
> 4] I take 50% longer to do the job. i.e. 4.5 hours as opposed to 3 hours. I did a quotation for you prior to commencing the job, which showed my 4.5 hours of labour. Even though others quoted a lower labour period, you choose me because of 1] & 3] above.

  You know it all sounds nice and sweet but at this point in time I've lost my faith in tradesman doing any decent job. You may well do as you say but I've heard it all before and NEVER has it actually been delivered upon. As they say talk is cheap and tradies certainly know how to talk, probably only second to lawyers.   

> 5] You are fully aware of the existence of the Dept of Fair Trading.

  Biggest joke of all. At best you'll not end up paying for the shody work and if you try getting any decent compensation back be ready to go to court. You then hire another tradie and see how keen they are to retouch up the work. They realise most likely you threw the other guy out and potentially reported him and they'd rather avoid a similar repeat because they know the customer won't take @@@@ and keep a watchful eye on them. Then of course alot of tradies meet up on job sites from the area and if you piss one off the others avoid you since they know you have a propensity to report any shoddy work so they'd rather give you a miss since their has been plenty of work of late. Think I'm paranoid or lying? Well that's your choice but one guy whom I never met came out frankly and just said he'd rather give the job a miss after quoting me a few days before for exactly the reason that I took one of his "mates" through the system and told me good luck finding another electrician. I had to go out of the area to get one in.    

> If you feel that by doing your own work, you are "getting even" with industry protectionists, please remember that "two wrongs do not make a right".

  It's nothing to do with getting even. It's to do with actually doing a proper job in the first place. It's amazing how tradies waltz into your house and screw things up and try to cover it up.  
I have many examples. Here is another one. One idiot actually drilled so many holes in a beam that he made it into swiss cheese.  Seems he'd choose a spot that was full of concrete under the beam and thought if he drilled 30mm across he'd be luckier. Rinse and repeat. All because he didn't have a masonary bit handy. I had to then go and re-enforce that portion of the beam afterwards. The prick had the gawl to tall me it must of been other electricians in the past who did that. I know it wasn't because I inspect the areas prior to work commencing. You then report it and are ignored because you have no proof that the "guy before" (even though he never existed) didn't do the damage etc. 
It is rare I actually find a tradie who does the job properly from start to finish. Like I said the only ones that seem to be worth anything are the ones who just graduated from being apprentices and haven't owned their own business for more than 5 years. Last time I found a decent plumber he decided he'd move to the country. Doh!    

> Just because "it works" does not mean that the job was done properly.

   Exactly. The way I see it most tradies fit into this boat. Most skimp on materials and time to maximise profit and most (rightly) think they can get away with sweet talk because quite frankly they can since the industry hides it's codes or prices them out of reach for the common man to check whether the work was done correctly. 
 Most people don't crawl up into the roof cavity to examine any damage they've caused or what shoddy work they've done. Same goes under the house. I already mentioned the rats nest of tangled, unsecured wiring under the house the pro's from Optus and the antenna guy left.   
The way I see it, given the specs most reasonable people could do 90% of the household wiring themselves. It's a joke the simplicity of it once you have the regs. It's not rocket surgery and as has been said only restricting the regs is screwing people over safety wise because they are going ahead with it anyway. At least give them some guidance to do it properly rather than hide the info. It reminds me about the parents who think that if they tell their kids not to have sex and do not tell them about condoms and contraceptives that they won't have sex and be safe because the fear of accidently falling pregnant is enough :lol:. We all know what a ridiculous approach that is but we seem to do it with trades in this country happy to risk peoples lives by restricting information so that a few "pros" can make some money. Trouble is the pros don't even work safely or do the right things most of the time unless they are convenient and quick leaving people exposed to shody work just like that of a bad DIY'er, even worse from what I've seen since damage is done to the structure of the house that may cause it to collapse in a large storm etc.

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## bklooger

with an attitude like that you wonder why  you cant find tradesmen i bet your one of those types that stand there watching everymove and querying every action. the reality is you need a license to do electrical work and i wouldnt risk it there are too many deaths happening from electricity already

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## bricks

:What he said:

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## Terrian

> with an attitude like that you wonder why  you cant find tradesmen i bet your one of those types that stand there watching everymove and querying every action.

  And what if he is, he is, after all, paying $60, $70, $80 or whatever per hour (plus travel time!).   

> the reality is you need a license to do electrical work and i wouldnt risk it there are too many deaths happening from electricity already

  Reality is I just spend the last hour pulling out old wiring, Telstra cable, Optus cable, 240v cable, from under my house. The Tesltra & Optus cable should have been removed by the respective companies when they removed the services (at my request) IMO, what an absolute tangle of wires. The 240v cable was obviosuly old wire that had, at some stage in the past, been replaced with new wiring (before my time in the house, so who knows who did the job, the newer cable was nice & neat compared to the rest of the wiring under the house, I'll say that much for it) 
Am I allowed to do any of that work, sticking to rules and regulations, probably not, but there has to be some common sense (yeah yeah, I know, it is not so common). 
I recently put a security cam in my shed, cable is underground, it uses 12v, but seems I am not allowed to do that either.

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## bklooger

my comment was more about the attitude in the writing, that 60 to 80 dollars an hr covers your profit and overheads different to working for a wage. it doesnt justify you watching the tradie like a zoo animal if you dont trust them dont hire them 
 as for the rules and regulations write to your mp to change them otherwise stop complaining and yes you are breaking the law its no different to dui or speeding they are there to protect the public as i said to many people are dying from electricity that are needless yet the results are devastating

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## wonderplumb

> I'll take my chances. If a year 10 graduate can cable up some stuff most of us can work it out pretty easily and have. Plenty of detailed guides on the net anyway thankfully.

  Ive known yr10 school leavers with more brains and common sense then some men Ive known...........
but Ill take your comment and read it as a tongue in cheek p!sstake of tradesmen in general, seeing the majority of them leave school in yr10 to take on an apprenticeship, along with the " _if a yr10 graduate can blah blah blah most of us can work it out pretty easily"_ attitude.
But we can always fall back on the ever reliable information on the internet, which Im sure is endorsed by SAI Global :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :No:

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## wonderplumb

So what do you do for a crust mate?   

> You know it all sounds nice and sweet but at this point in time I've lost my faith in tradesman doing any decent job.

  Where do you get your tradies from, seems you've had an unusually bad run.    

> As they say talk is cheap and tradies certainly know how to talk, probably only second to lawyers.

  Thats a bit rough, but you dont seem to be too short of breath either :Biggrin:     

> You then hire another tradie and see how keen they are to retouch up the work. They realise most likely you threw the other guy out and potentially reported him and they'd rather avoid a similar repeat because they know the customer won't take @@@@ and keep a watchful eye on them.

  I dont particularly fancy rectifying another persons work either unless the customer is willing to pay for the time it takes to inspect every part of it, would you? :Wink:  And how did he come to realise you got rid of the last fella unless you sat there and rubbished him? Id put it in the too hard basket also and turn my back to it.  

> Then of course alot of tradies meet up on job sites from the area and if you piss one off the others avoid you since they know you have a propensity to report any shoddy work so they'd rather give you a miss since their has been plenty of work of late.

  Yeah we meet up all the time, then I'll go around and give the sparky, the chippy, the bricky, the tiler, the plasterer, the concretor and anyone else I can find a bit of paper with your name, address and phone number then explain to them all not to bother :Doh:  Seriously mate, most tradies have better things to worry about than a PITA customer they'd rather forget about.  

> Think I'm paranoid or lying?

  Yes, and, over exaggerating rather than lying. Calling you a liar would be plain bad manners, similar to putting tradesmen on a probable par with lawyers for spinning shyte.  

> one guy whom I never met came out frankly and just said he'd rather give the job a miss after quoting me a few days before for exactly the reason that I took one of his "mates" through the system and told me good luck finding another electrician.

  I would too, tradies, especially the ones who deal direct with the owner (plumbers, electricians etc.) tend to have a knack of picking jobs that simply are'nt worth the brain damage.  

> It's nothing to do with getting even. It's to do with actually doing a proper job in the first place. It's amazing how tradies waltz into your house and screw things up and try to cover it up.

  Again, where do you get them from?  

> I know it wasn't because I inspect the areas prior to work commencing.

  hmmm, so you get up into the ceiling and under your floor ? I bet with a camera too!    

> It is rare I actually find a tradie who does the job properly from start to finish.

  Wonder why that could be :Confused:    

> Most skimp on materials and time to maximise profit and most (rightly) think they can get away with sweet talk because quite frankly they can since the industry hides it's codes or prices them out of reach for the common man to check whether the work was done correctly.

  _Can_ they get away with the sweet talk, or are you a little vulnerable to B.S.? Codes priced out of reach for the common man? These days, depending on the particular TAFE college, 1st yr apprentices are forced to hand over the $200 odd dollars for the set of standards. As for hiding them, you can walk into any TAFE bookshop and purchase a set, however, the standard will give you rules and regs but it wont tell you if the installation itself is correct.  

> I already mentioned the rats nest of tangled, unsecured wiring under the house the pro's from Optus and the antenna guy left.

  These people are notorious for it.....  

> We all know what a ridiculous approach that is but we seem to do it with trades in this country happy to risk peoples lives by restricting information so that a few "pros" can make some money.

  Sounds like you got it sussed mate and uncovered all our dirty little secrets :Yikes2:  Seriously, you didnt put too much thought into that one, did you?   

> Trouble is the pros don't even work safely or do the right things most of the time

  Seriously, where do you get your tradesmen from mate? If they are _really_ that bad, do the people on this forum a service. Name and shame them or at least the suburbs they come from, that is of course if you can.

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## bricks

:Flog Deadhorse:

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## dazzler

:brava:    :Way to go:

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## Harrison#2

another idea to keep your costs down is to buy the cable and swiches and thread the wire through the wall so then they only have to hook up swickes. less time on the job the more money saved. 
 another opinion. if they whant to stop people doing DIY jobs why sell all the swiches ect at shops were the public can buy them and just lie to get awaywith doing it themselfs.

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## murray44

> I recently put a security cam in my shed, cable is underground, it uses 12v, but seems I am not allowed to do that either.

  Why not? What regulation do you think you have breached?

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## watson

Hang on a bit fellers,
This thread sort of died in the Bum in January.
May be better to start another one to go on with.

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