# Forum Home Renovation Fences & Screens  Advice on bolts/anchors to use in pavers, for surface mount aluminum fence posts

## teredactle

Good day gang,  I am installing part of the aluminum ornamental fence on top of pavers. The pavers are quite large, around 2 3/8" in thickness, 13" x 19 1/2".  I plan to use masonry anchors, but would like to be able to remove them just in case. I was going to get Cobra SuperSleeve, but then saw that Tapcon has LDT option.  I just wanted some advice as I don't want to crack the paver(s) as the fence posts will be pretty close to the edge.  Is one bolt better to use over the other to prevent cracking? Should I drill all the way through the paver and use a longer bolt?  I am planning on supporting the surface mount of the fence pole with a larger aluminum plate to distribute the weight (sideways force if the fence post is hit), just unsure as to what hardware to use on the anchors/bolts.  I like that the Tapcon can be taken out/removed.  Thanks in advance!

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## lazydays

I've never really seen fences bolted to pavers work.
The best results I get are... 
1) Core drill through the paver with say a 75mm core drill with the water on
2) Turn the water off after breaking through the paver and try to go down the usual depth. You are turning the water off because you don't want it to turn into a messy sludge. You are just trying to clear the hole. Keep lifting the drill and tapping out the spoil.
3) Insert posts and line em up
4) Pour concrete mix down hole but stop short of paver section
5) In paver section use non-shrink grout...this stuff is about $40/bag and holds like @@@@ to a blanket. Using the concrete mix first saves you some $$$$$
6) Put dress ring over post and finish fence construction
If pavers are tightly laid and especially if grouted joints, it will give a strong result.

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## teredactle

Thanks for taking the time to respond. This fence is only in place because the local bylaw obliges me to install one, it would not exist otherwise, so it doesn't need to be heavy duty but to prevent children from getting in the pool area. 
I'm not sure I understand 4 - 5. Under the pavers I have a layer of stone dust, then geotextile, then 10" of 3/4 gravel.  So drill down further through the stone dust and then pour down concrete mix until it fills up to the bottom of the paver, then put in grout in the holes I drilled in the paver? I don't get it, I was planning on making the holes the size I need for tapcon LDT to screw in the bottom plates of the fence posts. 
The pavers are 123lbs each and in between them there is the silica sand that hardened.

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## lazydays

I see that the stuff is a LOT cheaper in Canada...in Aust. a bag of pre-mix concrete is about $10 and the non-shrink grout is about $40/bag....I just use the cheaper stuff in the ground and the non-shrink for the critical top part where it will set so hard and nad make the paver/post/grout all one soild strong piece as long as the pavers can't move about which looks like you have covered.
P.S..Australia has also probably the stricest pool fencing laws in the world, children drowning in backyard pools used to be the leading cause of death, the figures have now dropped down to second leading cause

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## phild01

> P.S..Australia has also probably the stricest pool fencing laws in the world, children drowning in backyard pools used to be the leading cause of death, the figures have now dropped down to second leading cause

  Are you sure! Swimming pool deaths 2015/16 were 45, far less than the other drowning types eg beaches and rivers etc (235).

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## mudbrick

I've used dynabolts through pavers where there was concrete under the pavers. 16mm dynabolt straight through the paver  and deep into the concrete. That's works fine  :Smilie:

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## teredactle

> I see that the stuff is a LOT cheaper in Canada...in Aust. a bag of pre-mix concrete is about $10 and the non-shrink grout is about $40/bag....I just use the cheaper stuff in the ground and the non-shrink for the critical top part where it will set so hard and nad make the paver/post/grout all one soild strong piece as long as the pavers can't move about which looks like you have covered.
> P.S..Australia has also probably the stricest pool fencing laws in the world, children drowning in backyard pools used to be the leading cause of death, the figures have now dropped down to second leading cause

  Thanks, I'm not clear though as you didn't really answer my question. My point is that I want to use an anchor/bolt that I can possibly remove if I need to. What you are describing seems to be permanent. 
Is would like to use tapcon 3/8 x 2 1/2" anchors like these: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0136004 but I don't know if I should 
1) use these and not drill all the way through the paver
2) use the 3" ones and drill all the way through the paver as the paver is 2 3/8" 
Would this not be enough? The fence post plate is square with 4 holes at the edges.

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## teredactle

> I've used dynabolts through pavers where there was concrete under the pavers. 16mm dynabolt straight through the paver  and deep into the concrete. That's works fine

  Unfortunately I don't have concrete under the pavers. In terms of dynabolts, I considered (and actually bought some - wedge anchors) but found these instead https://www.renodepot.com/en/anchors...nchors-0484404 which from what I read, can be removed if need be (easier that the dynabolt type). 
Cheers and thanks for your input.

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## r3nov8or

> ... 
> Is would like to use tapcon 3/8 x 2 1/2" anchors like these: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0136004 but I don't know if I should 
> 1) use these and not drill all the way through the paver
> 2) use the 3" ones and drill all the way through the paver as the paver is 2 3/8" 
> Would this not be enough? The fence post plate is square with 4 holes at the edges.

  These should be fine, and i'd drill all the way through to get as much bite as possible.

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## teredactle

Thanks - my only concern was that with a bigger hole, and all the way through, it reduces the structure of the paver even more (as there is less material holding together) which would make it more prone to break, not to mention water from below getting in the hole somehow and freezing.
If it was in the middle of the paver I think this would be negligible.

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## phild01

Try and get stainless steel or galvanised, not ones labelled as zinc.  If it rusts, it may split the paver.

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## r3nov8or

> Thanks - my only concern was that with a bigger hole, and all the way through, it reduces the structure of the paver even more (as there is less material holding together) which would make it more prone to break, not to mention water from below getting in the hole somehow and freezing.
> If it was in the middle of the paver I think this would be negligible.

   Yep, OK, re freezing, that's not a consideration for me, so decide based on prevailing conditions

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## lazydays

> Are you sure! Swimming pool deaths 2015/16 were 45, far less than the other drowning types eg beaches and rivers etc (235).

  Sorry, I meant to say under 5yrs old which is what the Aust. Standards is based on. Like road fatlaities the figures can be a bit bouncy but the last fcat sheet I got from QBBC said "under 5 yrs drownuing in private backyard pools" has been reduced down to the second leading cause of death...I'll try and see if I can dig it up .
This NSW report is interesting how it's broken up into unsupervised children, no fences, partially fence, in-operative gates etc. It's over 2 meg so I can't upload it here. https://www.royallifesaving.com.au/_...ngReportLR.pdf

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## phild01

So you meant leading cause of death for those under 5 years of age?  As it was only 45 for 2015/16 I didn't imagine they would be all be children, and that far more would die from other things like road accidents or disease of some sort!

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## mudbrick

> Unfortunately I don't have concrete under the pavers. In terms of dynabolts, I considered (and actually bought some - wedge anchors) but found these instead https://www.renodepot.com/en/anchors...nchors-0484404 which from what I read, can be removed if need be (easier that the dynabolt type). 
> Cheers and thanks for your input.

  i think I'd rather lift up each paver you need to drill through, dig a little hole and drop a bag of cement into it then lay the paver on top. Just bolting your fence to loose pavers sounds like the fence could wobble a lot and worst case fall over if a few big units decided to lean on it.

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## phild01

> i think I'd rather lift up each paver you need to drill through, dig a little hole and drop a bag of cement into it then lay the paver on top. Just bolting your fence to loose pavers sounds like the fence could wobble a lot and worst case fall over if a few big units decided to lean on it.

   Agree, was a thought I had too. Apparently the pavers are large but looking at the dimensions, I think they are a bit light on.  Their orientation might help, depends what the fence needs to do!

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## teredactle

> Agree, was a thought I had too. Apparently the pavers are large but looking at the dimensions, I think they are a bit light on.  Their orientation might help, depends what the fence needs to do!

  Removing the pavers is not an option I'm afraid, they are big and heavy and installed via polymeric sand between them to lock them in place.  Along the side of the fence I have a couple of 6x6 posts that are there for the pergola, so I plan on using that to reinforce the top part of the fence for more lateral strength. This is all I can do. 
 This is a light 4 foot high aluminum ornamental fence, pretty much as light as you can go for a fence. The fence is just to surround the pool and prevent little kids from getting into the pool area, there is no other reason for it and if this wasn't a bylaw I would never install it.

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## Handyjack

In Australia it is a law that pools are in a childproof enclosure. The laws differ slightly state to state, yet a pond, creek, river or dam on a farm does not need a fence. 
Yes your tapcons are the best to use with least likely to break paver. Do not over tighten as then you will need to use either a bigger size or a different fastener. As others have said always a risk just having the fastener in the paver.

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## teredactle

Thanks for all your feedback, I appreciate it. 
For the record, I do have two small pieces of the same paver (slightly larger than a typical brick) in which I am drilling and doing some tests. How close to the edge of the paver can I get away with, tightening the tapcons, etc., etc. Figured this will prevent mistakes.

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## teredactle

I know, this thread is old and I never followed up to sort of close it out, which I like to do in light of other people's time spent giving feedback and advice. I completed the fence, however I decided to go another way and use spikes on which the fence posts can be mounted. I hammered these spike along the perimeter and then installed the fence panels as well as the gate(s).  It took a week of 9x5 doing this by myself, but it turned out really nice, and the inspector passed everything. 
Fence Panels: https://www.renodepot.com/en/ornemental-fence-09215124
Gate: https://www.renodepot.com/en/ornamental-gate-09215129
Spikes: https://www.renodepot.com/en/spike-1...spike-80645067   
Thanks to all of you for your feedback/advice. This summer, given time, I have 2 decks to install.
1) along the pool, L shaped (so along a length and width) towards the pavers @ 20" off the ground (no permit required)
2) off the back patio door, it will be small 4' x 8'; since it's higher then 24" it needs a permit, I got the permit approved yesterday. 
Cheers mates!

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