# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  Kero in water tanks?

## stan250

I have mossie larvae in my tanks. The tanks (steel) do have covers on them but they arent airtight. A layer of kero was suggested to me as a way to stop the mossies but as I use this water for drinking I am not sure this is a good idea.
Is this a safe thing to do? or is there another way to stop the mossies?
thanks
Stan

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## Bedford

A small amount of kero has been used for this for years, it just puts the slightest film on top of the water and stops them breeding. 
It stays on top so doesn't affect the drinkability.

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## SilentButDeadly

Except that being a volatile fluid, kerosene very quickly evaporates off leaving  just a smell and a few interesting compounds for you to drink....only works for a couple of days at best. 
Best to invest a little more time and effort on inlet and outlet guards rather than a lazy and basically useless solution.

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## stan250

> Except that being a volatile fluid, kerosene very quickly evaporates off leaving  just a smell and a few interesting compounds for you to drink....only works for a couple of days at best. 
> Best to invest a little more time and effort on inlet and outlet guards rather than a lazy and basically useless solution.

  
hmm, thanks, I had a feeling that someone here would shine a little light on the realities of this 'traditional' practice.

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## Bedford

Here's a little light from the SA Government. 
What they don't tell you is that any screen fine enough to stop them getting, will probably block the inlet every time it rains.

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## SilentButDeadly

I've not had no such trouble to date and we run three rainwater tanks.  But true.....it does require a higher standard of maintanence than just doing nothing.

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## stan250

> Here's a little light from the SA Government. 
> What they don't tell you is that any screen fine enough to stop them getting, will probably block the inlet every time it rains.

  Thanks but Marion Council is not the SA Government and they may be repeating
outdated advice. If the kero does evaporate so quickly I cant see the point of running the risk of putting kerosene into drinking water.

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## m6sports

if its just to put a layer of oil on top why not use cooking oil / vegetable oil
its food safe and wont causing any problems in that way  
im not sure if it will work but it might be worth a try

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## China

A couple of drops of machine oils is the go does not evaporate, my grandfather did this all his life and he died at 97 so it can't be too bad

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## SilentButDeadly

> if its just to put a layer of oil on top why not use cooking oil / vegetable oil. its food safe and wont causing any problems in that way

  Nice idea.  Except plant oils are prone to oxidising (they go rancid), the slick breaks up into coagulates which then sink to the bottom. 
All mineral oils have a volatile component.....once that's gone....for the rest, there's no other way but down (oil slicks don't float forever!).  Sure it won't kill you.  But then neither will the effort required to actually fix the problem properly.

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## wonderplumb

Buy one of those microfibre sacks that plastic tanks come with. Nothing gets through those.

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## Bloss

As has been said - use mechanical means stop the mosquitoes getting in to lay their larvae - and do not add pollutants to the water. See this recent doc from the ACT Government (and this is based on national guidelines) - http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/...ater_tanks.pdf  (note a 3.6MB file). 
The relevant para says:  *Should I use kerosene to control mosquitoes?*
Under no circumstances should kerosene be used if the tank is for drinking water. Kerosene may also be damaging to plastic or Aquaplate coatings.
Low oxygen levels in tank water, caused by excessive sludge, will attract mosquitoes. You may have heard that a teaspoon of kerosene poured onto the surface of tank-water will stop mosquitoes from breeding. This is true, however there is no need to use kerosene as fine insect screens or fine mesh screens properly installed on inlet and overflow points will prevent mosquitoes entering the tank.  :2thumbsup:

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## stan250

So there is no mistake, let's just have that again.... in a larger font.     Under no circumstances should kerosene be used if the tank is for drinking water..

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## Daniel Morgan

> See this recent doc from the ACT Government (and this is based on national guidelines) - http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/...ater_tanks.pdf  (note a 3.6MB file).

  That's an interesting doc, it states, Taking due care, a handy person can install:
 tanks and stands
 irrigation systems from a dedicated tank
 a pressure boosting pump used solely for irrigation
 rainwater guttering, downpipes and stormwater drains.
And yet this doc you provided  Plumbers and drainers' employment,states, 
Plumbers and drainers are needed for plumbing work at single residential homes, dual occupancies, commercial, industrial and public buildings. This includes work relating to drains, water supply, rainwater tanks, greywater systems, hot water systems, lawn watering systems where backflow prevention is needed, sprinkler or spray systems with pipe work fixed at or below ground level, in-ground pop-up sprinklers and onsite sewer manholes.
Which one is correct and legal?

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## terenjac

> So there is no mistake, let's just have that again.... in a larger font.     Under no circumstances should kerosene be used if the tank is for drinking water..

  This will reveal my age, but, as a child in the 1940's and 1950's my parents put kero in our water tanks and it, so far, *has had no effect on my health*.

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## stan250

> This will reveal my age, but, as a child in the 1940's and 1950's my parents put kero in our water tanks and it, so far, *has had no effect on my health*.

  Maybe you kerosene drinkers who didnt die from it, have just been lucky. Those children who weren't so lucky and died of respiratory failure, aren't of course, here to tell us how it never did them any harm.   
Accidental kerosene ingestion: a 3-year prospective study.
Dudin AA, Rambaud-Cousson A, Thalji A, Jubeh II, Ahmad HM, Libdeh BA.  
Abstract
Accidental kerosene ingestion continues to cause morbidity and mortality in third world countries, where kerosene is still used for cooking, heating and cleaning. In this prospective study, 78 children aged from 10 months to 5 years were managed at Makassed Hospital in Jerusalem for kerosene ingestion. Respiratory distress developed in 60 (76.90%) children. Two who required mechanical ventilation died. Vomiting, which occurred in 49 cases, did not seem to increase the risk of respiratory complications, suggesting that aspiration occurs with the initial ingestion. Chest X-ray changes were noted in 60% of the children on admission. Pleural effusions occurred in three cases over 24 hours after the incident. CNS manifestations, most likely caused by anoxia, were seen in 27% of the children, but in only two were they severe in the form of convulsions, and both died. Fever occurred in about 50% of the children during their stay in hospital. Severe gastric dilatation developed in the four most severely ill children, two of whom died. The quantity of kerosene ingested by them was estimated to be large. 
------------------------------------------------------------------ 
Rajniti Prasad, Sunil Muthusami, Nisha Pandey, O P Mishra 
Department of Pediatrics, Institute of Medical Sciences, BHU, Varanasi-221005 
Corresponding address: Dr. Rajniti Prasad, Lecturer, Dept. of Pediatrics, Institute of Medical Sciences, BHU, Varanasi-221005. Email: rajnitip@yahoo.co.in  
Key words: kerosene oil, pneumothorax, sub-cutaneous emphysema and pneumatocele  
Accidental kerosene oil ingestion is a problem in the developing world. Low socio-economic status and frequent use of kerosene oil, a cheap fuel, for cooking in rural areas and urban slums are the major cause. Most poisonings occur in the under five age group (1,2). Kerosene oil ingestion results primarily in respiratory symptoms (3). Ingestion of even 1 ml kerosene oil is significantly related to pulmonary complications (2,4). Low viscosity enhances penetration into more distal airways, and low surface tension facilitates spread over a large area of lung tissue. We report a child who came to our hospital with pneumatoceles, subcutaneous emphysema and pneumothorax after accidental ingestion of kerosene oil.  
A 2 years old girl was brought by her parents with respiratory distress that started five days ago, when she had inadvertently swallowed an unknown amount of kerosene oil. Immediately after ingestion, the child had violent cough and choking. Within half an hour, she started breathing rapidly and became severely dyspneic over the last 6 hours. Examination revealed an extremely dyspneic febrile child with a respiratory rate of 70/min associated with prominent intercostal recession and exaggerated use of the accessory muscles of breathing. Other general physical examination was normal. Chest examination showed extensive subcutaneous emphysema involving the entire left hemithorax and extending up to the neck and submandibular region. Respiratory movements were restricted on the left side. There was a tympanic note on percussion of the left hemithorax and complete absence of breath sounds. Chest radiograph showed left sided pneumothorax with bilateral basal and perihilar pneumonitis, pneumatocele in the right lung. Needle thoracostomy was immediately performed and air was drained. An intercostal tube was then inserted and antimicrobials (cefotaxime, cloxacillin and gentamicin) given for 14 days. The child's dyspnea and tachypnea improved over the next 7 days and she was discharged on day 14.

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## GraemeCook

> A couple of drops of machine oils is the go does not evaporate, my grandfather did this all his life and he died at 97 so it can't be too bad

  
We also used machine oil in the forties and fifties, not sewing machine oil, but the heavy black stuff used in farm machinery.   No mosquitoes, and no illnesses, and most lived well into their eighties and nineties. 
But virtually all hydrocarbons, ingested or absorbed, are proven or suspected carcinogenics.   It ain't worth the risk. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## Danny

Your other problem is that mozzies prefer to lay eggs in stagnant water or at the least in water that has a supply of nutrients. You might want to look at the quality of the water flowing into your tank.

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## The_Fixer

Let's not forget the smokers who lived to be nearly 100. Or those who survived the age of asbestos and lead based paints, etc, etc.... 
There are those who have a natural immunity (or just plain lucky), but it doesn't necessarily put them in the majority of the population. 
As a final note, adult longevity has increased significantly and child morbidity has reduced significantly (in first world countries) in the last 40 years or so. 
Surely this would have something to do with updated health care and better environmental health practices.... 
Just remembering being an apprentice in the boiler rooms in the early 70's I had significant exposure to asbestos, especially in dust form (without masks) and high concentrations of boiler soot in dust form. My specialist tells me I won't get asbestosis as I don't display the early signs. The soot bit is yet to unfold, maybe I will be lucky there as well. 
But you won't hear me saying : "Asbestos didn't do me any harm, therefore it is safe"...I know that I am just one of the lucky buggers.

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## Bloss

> That's an interesting doc, it states, Taking due care, a handy person can install:
>  tanks and stands
>  irrigation systems from a dedicated tank
>  a pressure boosting pump used solely for irrigation
>  rainwater guttering, downpipes and stormwater drains.
> And yet this doc you provided  Plumbers and drainers' employment,states, 
> Plumbers and drainers are needed for plumbing work at single residential homes, dual occupancies, commercial, industrial and public buildings. This includes work relating to drains, water supply, rainwater tanks, greywater systems, hot water systems, lawn watering systems where backflow prevention is needed, sprinkler or spray systems with pipe work fixed at or below ground level, in-ground pop-up sprinklers and onsite sewer manholes.
> Which one is correct and legal?

  This is accurate and not conflicting - potable water supply systems or plumbing of tank or greywater systems into premises where there is any likelihood of pollution of the potable supply by a non-potable source (in this instance including tank water if plumbed into a residence) must be done by a licensed plumber. 
Although there are variations, in simple terms the rule is that if the use of the water from the rainwater tank(s) is external then anyone can plumb it, if connected to any premises or has shared pipe work with a system supplied from the potable water supply then a licence is needed to do the work. Catch-22 is that if you want a rebate of any kind you must have it installed by a licensed plumber.

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## Danny

[quote=Bloss;825496]   if the use of the water from the rainwater tank(s) is external then anyone can plumb it,  
Not correct. 
In Victoria for example, only a licensed plumber is permitted to plumb or alter rooftop stormwater discharge pipework. Some other States have more lax laws that often result in less than desirable installations and outcomes.  
Homeowners need to realise that their own State laws that sometimes override the stormwater plumbing regulations AS/NZS 3500 are often less than satisfactory.

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## Daniel Morgan

> See this recent doc from the ACT Government (and this is based on national guidelines)

  Hello, who makes these National guidelines and have they been legislated?    

> Although there are variations, in simple terms the rule is that if the use of the water from the rainwater tank(s) is external then anyone can plumb it,

  I take it from the doc you presented that this includes fitting roof guttering ,downpipes to the tank and underground drainage. Could you post a pic of this rule that is national please, cos I'm up to my ass with the plumbing commission at the moment and I think that might help.   

> Not correct. 
> In Victoria for example, only a licensed plumber is permitted to plumb or alter rooftop stormwater discharge pipework.

  That's what they're telling me. 
To the OP, are you aware that the growers have been spraying carrots with white spirit and kerosene for 100 years, this may well also have a cumulative effect, possibly more so than the teaspoon worth of kero to keep the mozzies at bay.

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## stan250

[QUOTE
To the OP, are you aware that the growers have been spraying carrots with white spirit and kerosene for 100 years, this may well also have a cumulative effect, possibly more so than the teaspoon worth of kero to keep the mozzies at bay.[/QUOTE] 
That's just another good reason to grow your own, not a good reason to risk poisoning the grandchildren for the sake of some carefully placed screening;
1ml being sufficient to cause respiratory problems for the under 5's.

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## Danny

Daniel Morgan, 
Roof & stormwater drainage often refers to AS/NZS 3500 but the  different States and regional councils have to embrace it. Not all do. 
The best way to describe Australian plumbing regulations would be "fragmented at best".  
Your profile states you are from Australia but you mention the Plumbing Commission. By this, I assume you are referring to the Victorian Plumbing Industry Commission. 
If your dispute with the Vic. PIC concerns the fitting of gutters, downpipes etc, then legally only plumbers can do this in Victoria. If you have queries concerning water tank plumbing, then maybe I could answer your questions. The PIC lacks knowledge of best practice in this area. 
EDIT: 
Re kerosene; Mosquito larvae breath through a trachea, the kero disrupts this. However, water is a living organism that requires an air/water interface to promote aerobic conditions. A film of Kero on the water surface is not conducive to this objective.

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## Daniel Morgan

> Your profile states you are from Australia but you mention the Plumbing Commission. By this, I assume you are referring to the Victorian Plumbing Industry Commission.

   Yes I am Australian but the job is in Vic under the control of the Plumbing Industry Commission    

> If your dispute with the Vic. PIC concerns the fitting of gutters, downpipes etc, then legally only plumbers can do this in Victoria.

   Yes I understand this but having been through two Coronial inquiries and two Ombudsman's investigations in the past, I have learned that they can't have two sets of rules, so simply is it this rule   http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/...ater_tanks.pdf or the PIC, who provides the compliance certificate  via the registered plumber in order to comply with the councils request for it before approving an occupancy permit.

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## Danny

> is it this rule   http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/...ater_tanks.pdf or the PIC, who provides the compliance certificate  via the registered plumber in order to comply with the councils request for it before approving an occupancy permit.

  The document you linked (above) applies to the A.C.T. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Vic. PIC.  
You may be confusing the A.C.T. with the Federal government.  
Plumbing regulations are a real minefield in Australia. In some States, it is common for councils and even State and regional health regulations to override other regulatory bodies. Victoria is reasonably stable in this regard but it would still pay you to check with the local council.  
Re rainwater tanks (if applicable); the Victorian 5 star rating does stipulate some plumbing that is not always compliant with the plumbing code. The PIC knows this and other issues but choose not to do anything about it and continues to recognise plumber's compliance certificates issued for a lot of non compliant plumbing.

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## Danny

> I have mossie larvae in my tanks.  
> A layer of kero was suggested to me as a way to stop the mossies  
> is there another way to stop the mossies?
> Stan

  If you have mozzie larvae, first check if the tank is 'mosquito proof'. If so, then...
1. Check that the overflow has mosquito proof mesh attached. The mesh is prone to blocking and can be difficult to access and clean and many people will punch  holes in it. If the overflow pipe has any access points, particularly if it drains to a raingarden or similar, mosquitoes can and will travel up the pipe to access the tank water. 
2. Check your gutters. If the gutters do not completely drain, mosquitoes can breed in the pooled water. If it rains a day or two later, you will have mosquito eggs flushed into the tank. A first flush diverter will help substantially but these are often limited by the small volume of the commonly used 90 mm PVC chamber and the lack of appropiate length of vertical fitting space. 
You also posted: "The tanks (steel) do have covers on them but they arent airtight". It is important for tanks not to have the ventilation restricted for the reason I posted earlier to Daniel Morgan. 
The lack of uniformity of regulations and their consequence has been clearly demonstrated on this thread. This often leads to local councils and other bodies having regulations and guidelines drafted by persons who have gained their 'expert' knowledge from reading varying websites.  
The link posted by Bedford is a good example (excerpt below) which comes from the City of Marion Council, S.A. 
"For most types of tanks,
adding a teaspoon (5ml) of domestic kerosene will stop mosquitoes from breeding.
Kerosene should not be used in Aquaplate tanks or in some plastic tanks. Kerosene may
initially be tasted in the water but is harmless and the taste will subside over time". 
Amazingly, this document refers to the department of Environmental Health as a contact for further information!  
I have numerous examples of bureaucratic incompetence but l didn't have this one. I do now!

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## Bloss

[quote=Danny;825503]  

> if the use of the water from the rainwater tank(s) is external then anyone can plumb it,  
> Not correct. 
> In Victoria for example, only a licensed plumber is permitted to plumb or alter rooftop stormwater discharge pipework. Some other States have more lax laws that often result in less than desirable installations and outcomes.  
> Homeowners need to realise that their own State laws that sometimes override the stormwater plumbing regulations AS/NZS 3500 are often less than satisfactory.

  I did say there are variations - I always expect readers will look at their local situation (as my signature clearly says they should do) and I was trying to keep it simple. 
There are national rules slowly being adopted. I wouldn't agree that there are lax laws or that there are undesirable outcomes. For years, especially in Victoria there has been a closed shop for a number of trades that have made it hard for DIYers and defy commonsense and sensible regulation in the public interest. 
The rules moved well beyond what was needed for public safety and work quality - simply allowed a closed shop for a few trades and good income for the associated peak organisations - with quite a bit of political clout. 
The trouble engaging with the Victorian Plumbing Commission is a good example. See here for the National Plumbing code National Plumbing Regulators Forum |@Plumbing Code of Australia @-@The peak committee of technical and occupational plumbing regulators in Australia and New Zealand.  
Also part of a COAG agreement in 2007 including licence recognition Licence Recognition  
In my own experience the holding of a licence is not necessarily an indicator of work quality or for that matter compliance with the law or good practice. As I said these bodies claim to be making regulations to protect consumer rights, public safety and the environment. My view is that it is much more complicated and political than that. 
In any case you must abide by the law in your own jurisdiction - work to change it if you don't like it, but non-compliance has consequences as always. Of course in most states & territories there is barely enough enforcement of licensed work let alone any systematic process for checking on any other work.

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## Bloss

> The document you linked (above) applies to the A.C.T. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Vic. PIC.  
> You may be confusing the A.C.T. with the Federal government.  
> Plumbing regulations are a real minefield in Australia. In some States, it is common for councils and even State and regional health regulations to override other regulatory bodies. Victoria is reasonably stable in this regard but it would still pay you to check with the local council.

  This was an ACT only document as was made very clear in my reply so I am not sure how it was construed differently - but there is a move to national regulations - see my post above. In any case the relevant advice in the document was on kerosene and mosquitoes in rainwater tanks - and that remains pertinent and accurate. 
BTW - the national action is detailed here: http://www.federalfinancialrelations...April_2010.pdf

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## Danny

Bloss, 
Let us look at the sequence of posts.  *Your first post:* _As has been said - use mechanical means stop the mosquitoes getting in to lay  their larvae - and do not add pollutants to the water. See this recent doc from  the ACT Government (and this is based on national guidelines)_ - http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/...ater_tanks.pdf (note a  3.6MB file). 
What 'National Guidelines"? The ones compiled by ARID http://www.nwc.gov.au/resources/docu...oknwc_logo.pdf *or* the one compiled by CRC:  http://www.wqra.com.au/publications/...ank_manual.pdf *or* AS/NZS 3500 *or* others you or l or anybody else could just as easily post? 
Your reference to the one you posted as being based on "National Guidelines" was both erroneous and misleading. I think you failed to remember that persons reading this site's threads live all over Australia and there are probably site visitors who live overseas. 
Did you confuse anyone? Well...YES; Daniel Morgan for one as per his query to you re your post! In your return reply to him, you posted in part:  _"Although there are variations, in simple terms the rule is that if the use of  the water from the rainwater tank(s) is external then anyone can plumb it"    _ The section l have highlighted *is a definitive statement*.
There was no mention to him in your reply that it applied to the A.C.T. only, even though Daniel Morgan, in his query, included *your* reference to "National Guidelines", which you failed to respond to. It was your misleading reply that prompted me to post: 
[quote=Bloss;825496]_ if the use of the water from the rainwater tank(s) is  external then anyone can plumb it,  
"Not correct. In Victoria for  example, only a licensed plumber is permitted to plumb or alter rooftop  stormwater discharge pipework. Some other States have more lax laws that often  result in less than desirable installations and outcomes. Homeowners  need to realise that their own State laws that sometimes override the stormwater  plumbing regulations AS/NZS 3500 are often less than satisfactory"._  
If you read Daniel Morgans subsequent post, you will see that my post did serve its intended purpose to help clear up the confusion that your post created. You also failed to answer the following question that he posted in response to this confusion: 
 Quote:
     Originally Posted by *Bloss*   _See this recent doc from the ACT Government (and  this is based on national  guidelines)_  _Hello, who makes these National  guidelines and have they been legislated?_ 
And now you post:  _There are national rules slowly being adopted. I wouldn't agree that there are  lax laws or that there are undesirable outcomes._ 
State Governments act independently and many shires have their own overriding regulations as l also posted. And as for not agreeing there are lax laws or undesirable outcomes, how many examples do you need? Have a look at this thread on another forum and learn:   
"http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1595656  " *CROSS FORUM LINK REMOVED*  
Or read these links and then judge as to whether all of the relevant authorities are competent and acting in the public's best interest and without undesirable outcomes.  New gutters bring down the house - News - Domain - smh.com.au   At last, the truth on gutters  
Or this one below from a few days ago that reveals how State Government rebates have being paid on hundreds of dangerously installed solar hot water services, some even installed by unlicensed plumbers!  Queensland's Solar Hot Water Rebate Scheme marred by defective, dangerous units | Courier Mail

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## watson

OK here we go: 
It appears that Kero is a no no.
And a Dead Bird is a DoDo 
So lets move on in the same helpful manner as we have all year. 
Next Question!!

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