# Forum Home Renovation Metalwork & Welding  MIG Welder KIT

## fin7

Hi Guys I tried to reply to an old thread instead of creating a new one but it was too old so here goes. 
What would you recommend for around 500 bucks, I'm looking for a starter MIG kit to learn and then do some odd jobs once I've got the hang of it.  I would eventually like make some table legs out of steel box section eventually.

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## ringtail

The best thing you could do is to buy a stick welder. You'll actually learn something. Then you could progress to MIG once you become proficient with a stick welder.

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## phild01

> The best thing you could do is to buy a stick welder. You'll actually learn something. Then you could progress to MIG once you become proficient with a stick welder.

  My bad, started with a stick welder and dismissed the thing for a MIG. Only used it maybe 3 times without much luck. :Redface:

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## Marc

I remember when the debate was if copper windings or aluminium windings in the latest stick welder transformer. Today stick is like saying I am buying a Ford model A for commuting to work. Yet rod welding is as good as it has ever been. Cheap inverters with all the possible gadgets, cheap rods for almost all metals, no gas bottles, highly portable, fit in a bag over your shoulder. You may not like _my_ choice of stick welders like my bullet welder or a half a ton diesel welder I fancy, but an inverter is as good as it gets and as cheap as it gets, and clearly the best way to learn how to weld.   Actually ... if you want to go _real_ cheap, get a second hand transformer like this 140 Amp Peerless Ark/Stick Welder

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## webtubbs

I grew up around the old heavy stick welders and haven't tried MIG, so I bought myself a Cigweld Weldskill 130 for $290 a couple years ago and love it. Can start an arc with no effort and it welds beautifully, especially compared to my birdshit welds with older sticks. Its tiny as well so is easy to transport and store.

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## phild01

> I grew up around the old heavy stick welders and haven't tried MIG, so I bought myself a Cigweld Weldskill 130 for $290 a couple years ago and love it. Can start an arc with no effort and it welds beautifully, especially compared to my birdshit welds with older sticks. Its tiny as well so is easy to transport and store.

   Maybe that is where I went wrong, starting with a cheapo stick welder.  My thought was that all stick welders have a very basic principle in operation.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Maybe that is where I went wrong, starting with a cheapo stick welder.  My thought was that all stick welders have a very basic principle in operation.

  Not wrong but compromised. The principle is the same but it all hinges on execution. Hammer and​ nail. Easiest concept to grasp. However, ever tried to drive a 6" nail with an underweight and poorly balanced hammer? 
Same goes with migs too actually. My little multi function (stick/mig/tig) CIG branded​ unit isn't half the mig of a pro unit but it's sufficient. Nice stick welder though.

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## ringtail

> My thought was that all stick welders have a very basic principle in operation.

  True of all welders and all welding processes

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## phild01

So what differentiates them is just available power at hand?

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## OBBob

My biggest upgrade requirement is a good helmet... but then I wouldn't be able to blame being unable to see for the result.   :Biggrin:

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## Marc

Phil, the biggest difference with stick weld is the current used. AC or DC. I have a dinosaur stick welder that uses a 3 phase motor to turn a DC generator to weld. It is the smoothest weld you can get. An AC transformer give you an unstable arc that makes welding harder. Modern electronics mimic the generation of DC and add other fine tuning perks that make stick weld much easier. Their draw back is the quality of the electronics that can go at the drop of a hat, and make the whole unit scrap. The latest units are allegedly better than the earlier contraptions. 
MIG with a big transformer or a little electronic board is the same difference. Perhaps not as noticeable. I wasn't game to buy an inverter 10 years ago and went for the last few transformer units CIG produced. May be I'll give a good quality inverter a go soon, but don't expect to pay less than $3000 and up

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## Marc

> My biggest upgrade requirement is a good helmet... but then I wouldn't be able to blame being unable to see for the result.

   Auto darkening helmet makes life a lot easier. Go to a welding supplies not el cheapunnings and buy one that has a magnifying glass holder and one that you can buy parts for afterwards. Expect to pay up from $200 for a good one, may be a bit less if on special but it is certainly worth it.

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## fin7

So I take stick welding is the recommended approach for beginners.   Any recommended rigs?

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## Marc

I can't tell you, but Ringtail might. Not easy to recommend, something that can be as cheap as $200 and as dear as $2000 yet both can do the same job and both can cark it just as easy.

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## ringtail

> So what differentiates them is just available power at hand?

  The method in which they achieve the same end result. That is, to melt the base metal and add weld metal

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## ringtail

> So I take stick welding is the recommended approach for beginners.   Any recommended rigs?

  it is easily the best because it's 
1. Affordable
2. Flexible 
3. Hard to master - this is not a negative. You have to learn the correct methods and be on your game to produce results. This takes practice, practice and more practice and most importantly, tuition. Anyone can buy a mig and with the aid of youtoob, be running something that looks like a weld. But you will have no idea what you're doing and why you're doing it. The methods and knowledge you gain from the stick welding process makes MIG very easy indeed. Sure, it may be table legs today but that quickly moves on to trailer repairs etc.....So you think you can weld ? Prepared to test your liability on that trailer repair you did for your mate ? There is so much to know and learn but it is a way cool skill to have. 
As far as machines go, I would buy a multi process machine that does at least stick and tig AC/DC. However, for a first machine, to dip your toe in the water, a cheap inverter stick can be had cheap enough. You may hate welding, you may love it. Don't spend semi serious dollars until you know. Even hire one for the weekend.

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## fin7

> it is easily the best because it's 
> 1. Affordable
> 2. Flexible 
> 3. Hard to master - this is not a negative. You have to learn the correct methods and be on your game to produce results. This takes practice, practice and more practice and most importantly, tuition. Anyone can buy a mig and with the aid of youtoob, be running something that looks like a weld. But you will have no idea what you're doing and why you're doing it. The methods and knowledge you gain from the stick welding process makes MIG very easy indeed. Sure, it may be table legs today but that quickly moves on to trailer repairs etc.....So you think you can weld ? Prepared to test your liability on that trailer repair you did for your mate ? There is so much to know and learn but it is a way cool skill to have. 
> As far as machines go, I would buy a multi process machine that does at least stick and tig AC/DC. However, for a first machine, to dip your toe in the water, a cheap inverter stick can be had cheap enough. You may hate welding, you may love it. Don't spend semi serious dollars until you know. Even hire one for the weekend.

  Thanks ringtail some good solid advice there, much appreciated.

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## ringtail

No worries

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## cyclic

If you are going to buy stick(arc) only, buy second hand, they are worth nothing.
I sold a welder with 1/2 pack of rods, chipping hammer, gloves, helmet (old style) and gave the bloke a quick lesson for $40
They regularly sell for $10 at the local tip shop, same as small migs.
Try Gumtree.
Best one I have now is copper wound.
Old Murex I had from the 60's was alloy wound but good just the same.
Good welder but the copper wound is so smooth.
Once you strike the arc, it just keeps running. 
My Sons love mig for steel and ali because they grew up with them, but I still find stick best for everything I need to do.
Tig ? well I have oxy which is almost the same as tig only electric.

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## ringtail

Old buzz boxes are worth bugger all. I picked mine up for $80. Put some new heavy leads on it, new earth clamp and stinger and a new super heavy power lead. It's only 130 amp but has near enough to 100% duty cycle at 130 amps and will run a 4 mm rod for as long as you can stand to do it. Definitely not the most portable thing though.

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## SilentButDeadly

> So you think you can weld ?

  Reality TV I could watch... 
'Welding Nightmares' could be another. Watch as the apprentice gets electrocuted out of the aluminium tinny he's working on!!! Wasn't me...

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## ringtail

I'd watch it too

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## fin7

Hi Guys, 
Any feedback on the cigweld brand?  I'm looking at the 140 Turbo as a starter perhaps?  https://www.ewelders.com.au/welding-...rc-welder.html 
Although it looks very like the ozito that bunnings sells.

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## Marc

Welding nightmares ... needs a swearing boilermaker.  
Cig welders ... brands mean very little this days. Made in china, like Lincoln and miller and ross and the rest of them. Best thing is ask the local welding school they probably answer this question 20 times a day and actually have a real answer. 
Main thing buy something that has a local repairer for the warranty. I know I only had to go two suburbs away to find the Lincoln warranty shop when I burned my plasma cutter ... twice!

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## craka

I'm don't think anyone has mentioned it above, but most moderate sized welders will have a 15amp plug, thus in order to use it you will require a 15amp GPO.

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## phild01

> I'm don't think anyone has mentioned it above, but most moderate sized welders will have a 15amp plug, thus in order to use it you will require a 15amp GPO.

  Or what others do!

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## cyclic

> I'm don't think anyone has mentioned it above, but most moderate sized welders will have a 15amp plug, thus in order to use it you will require a 15amp GPO.

  Never bothered me. 
In the 1960's when I was building car trailers in the back yard shed with a 130 amp Murex arc welder, I did not know what a 15 amp plug was, so when the plug on the welder would not fit in the 10 amp power point, I simply filed down the earth pin. OK so not the best thing to do and the electricians on here will throw rocks at me, but hey, on the 15 amp plug, the earth pin is the only difference.
Even today, I still run the old arc here out of a 10 amp gpo. 
I have seen some welders today with a 35 amp plug I think, similar to 3 phase plug, so that would really need a designated gpo..

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## craka

> Never bothered me. 
> In the 1960's when I was building car trailers in the back yard shed with a 130 amp Murex arc welder, I did not know what a 15 amp plug was, so when the plug on the welder would not fit in the 10 amp power point, I simply filed down the earth pin. OK so not the best thing to do and the electricians on here will throw rocks at me, but hey, on the 15 amp plug, the earth pin is the only difference.
> Even today, I still run the old arc here out of a 10 amp gpo. 
> I have seen some welders today with a 35 amp plug I think, similar to 3 phase plug, so that would really need a designated gpo..

  15Amp socket wiring is generally the same as 10amp socket wiring in relatively modern houses, I'm unsure on really old houses. But still the socket should really be changed over to 15amp socket if the appliance is fitted with 15amp plug

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## phild01

> 15Amp socket wiring is generally the same as 10amp socket wiring in relatively modern houses, I'm unsure on really old houses. But still the socket should really be changed over to 15amp socket if the appliance is fitted with 15amp plug

  Don't do that.
The wiring might be the same but the 15A socket is dedicated to that circuit.  I just make sure I don't have any heavy loads on the same circuit running at the same time as the welder.

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## cyclic

> Don't do that.
> The wiring might be the same but the 15A socket is dedicated to that circuit.  I just make sure I don't have any heavy loads on the same circuit running at the same time as the welder.

  Agree.

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## ringtail

Meh. Cheat lead

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## manofaus

FWIW 10A circuit has a 16A breaker.If you replace the plug or file the earth down you might find an uphill battle to get warranty. tip... when claiming warranty fit a clear 15a plug back on and say its a site requirement that you have plugs in which you can see the wiring.

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## Marc

Ha ha, there used to be kilometers of 15a treads in the old woodwork forum. Got really heated up. The only difference between a 10A p point and a 15 is that it has its own dedicated breaker yet the wiring is the same, so the debate was " what's the point" if i have a 10 amp pp and I know nothing else is on on that circuit. then the insurance brigade would have their field day, and then the electricians, and then out came the long lead argument and it went on and on. Fun really.

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## craka

> Don't do that.
> The wiring might be the same but the 15A socket is dedicated to that circuit.  I just make sure I don't have any heavy loads on the same circuit running at the same time as the welder.

  Should of written that another way.  I meant by way of sparky install, not just change. I think it doesn't have to be a dedicated circuit but can't have for instance 20 sockets as I think you can have if only using 10amp sockets.

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## Danos

> So I take stick welding is the recommended approach for beginners.   Any recommended rigs?

  There is a lot of info above, but from my recent experience over the last 5 years welding (progressing from cheap 140A stick, cigweld 135 and now transmig 200i) my recommendations are: 
Stick is good to learn on, hard to master on thin material
Mig is good progression from stick.  You can use flux core wire (good for galvanised steel) or solid wire with Argon/CO2 gas (extra cost but less spatter and much better looking welds)
Inverter machines have better arc stability control and should be easier to learn stick 
Definitely buy an auto darkening helmet - total tools have cigweld helmets for around $80
Enrol in a tafe stick weld course.  This will give you a heap of burn time practice.
Grind steel (and definitely galvanised material - nasty off gas) clean prior to welding. 
If you buy a dedicated stick eventually you will want to try mig.  I would recommend buying a stick/mig inverter machine (although there is nothing wrong with a transformer mig).  Check gumtree for second hand machines eg Cigweld 175i.  There are generally a lot of machines for sale less than $500.   
I rarely use stick unless the material is very dirty as you can burn though mill scale, grease etc.  I use mig for most jobs (gates, awning frames etc) and tig for furniture and fine detail jobs. 
Brands: Well I dont know if there is much difference for hobby machines in between cigweld, BOC, Lincoln these days.  I see some second hand WIA machines for sale also. 
Most machines are very reliable unless they have been thrashed and I would not hesitate to buy second hand.  Make sure the seller runs some weld tests before you buy.

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