# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  The green energy delusion

## Marc

*it's a* *dangerous illusion to believe “that solar and wind are somewhat different than fossil fuels.”* https://youtu.be/Zk11vI-7czE?t=3

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## John2b

You've linked to a 1h:40 minute video. How about a précis for those with less time on their hands than you?

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## phild01

generally 3 minutes is my limit

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## r3nov8or

> generally 3 minutes is my limit

  We need to know which 3 minutes  :Biggrin:

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## phild01

> We need to know which 3 minutes

  Ahh... if only :Biggrin:

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## Bedford

I watched it and found it quite interesting but not surprising.

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## Marc

> You've linked to a 1h:40 minute video. How about a précis for those with less time on their hands than you?

  Sure John, did not take much to find. As for Phil 3 minutes illumination, I am sorry Phil, after 30 years of misinformation and obscurantism, I am afraid that a 3 minutes explanatory video would be very difficult to make. 
If you want my aha 3 minutes, it comes when it uncovers the "Biomass" generators cutting down forests to burn and make "green" power.  
Here is a good review including some deserved criticism, not of content but of form.   *‘Planet of the Humans’: Film Review*  Cluttered and downbeat but illuminating, this Michael Moore-produced environmental documentary looks at the "green power" movement and sees red. By Dennis Harvey     A flashing red light to the green power movement, “Planet of the Humans” offers disillusioning evidence that much of what’s currently promoted as renewable energy is ineffectual, wasteful and far from “clean.” Released to YouTube on the eve of Earth Day’s 50th anniversary, it’s a provocative if straight-up depressing takedown of brand-name environmentalism that offers much bad news with scant constructive upside.  
This debut directorial feature for executive producer Michael Moore’s longtime producer and composer Jeff Gibbs is also the first documentary project under their Rumble Media banner. Both filmmakers will host a live discussion the evening of April 22 on the doc’s YouTube channel and other platforms. 
Things start off somewhat unpromisingly with Gibbs assuming the first-person perspective that’s become a cinematic nonfiction norm since “Roger & Me” 31 years ago. Moore does actually have the innate showmanship and engaging personality to pull that gambit off, as much as he’s criticized for “starring” in his documentaries.  
But Gibbs’ dull monotone makes him a poor narrator, and we gain very little from getting his own thumbnail biography as a born “tree hugger” before wading into the bigger issues at hand. Fortunately, “Planet” doesn’t keep him in the foreground for long, later introducing more personable collaborator-author Ozzie Zehner as a sometime fellow guide. 
After a brief recap of modern environmental consciousness, we leap forward to the Obama presidency, whose recession-necessitated stimulus package
included nearly $1 billion for “green energy.” But everywhere Gibbs and company look, they find “well-meaning people being misled” by supposed “clean” alternatives that provide little offset from, and in many cases are heavily dependent on, the same old “dirty” fossil fuels and other non-renewable sources. 
This encompasses wind and solar projects whose virtues are often wildly exaggerated, particularly in proportion to the resources required for their construction and operation.Some of this initially feels like an unwillingness on the filmmakers’ part to admit that the path forward must involve some compromises, and success by (one hopes) gradually rising degrees. But poking past the disillusioning actual results of many such much-ballyhooed ventures, Gibbs finds reason to doubt even the good intentions theoretically at work. He’s unable to find a single corporate entity worldwide whose claims of “100% renewable” energy usage are accurate. 
Meanwhile, a greenwashing surface too often hides old-school environmental destruction, polluting and profiteering from the usual billionaires. In “Planet’s” cluttered survey, there ends up being dismayingly few degrees of separation between the actions of the ostensible “good guys” (Al Gore, Sierra Club, Tesla, environmentalist Bill McKibben, etc.) and such familiar baddies as the Koch brothers, Goldman Sachs and Big Oil. Indeed, a little digging often reveals they all appear to have signed on the same dotted line. 
Gibbs doesn’t give those thus indicted much chance to defend themselves; the few times he does, he cuts away before they can stop awkwardly hemming and hawing to answer a difficult question. (The final credits are interspersed with text noting that several entities here hastily reversed public positions after the film’s first screenings, though their actual policies don’t seem to have changed much.) That could get “Planet” accused of “gotcha” journalism, which combined with its somewhat overpowering content sprawl and fast-paced but hopscotching editorial organization leave the viewer withlittle positive takeaway. 
But that is the point, insofar as there is a clear one here: Gibbs says “the elephant in the room” isn’t climate change or any other individual factor, but humanity itself. With our species’ population having skyrocketed in the last 200 years, we are simply in denial that mankind’s needs are exhausting Earth’s resources. “Infinite growth on a finite planet is suicide,” he says, as bleak footage of rampant deforestation (in large part to supply the dubious “clean energy” source of biomass) provide just one vivid proof. There is no obvious solution, save a massive scaling-back that capitalism-driven societies don’t even want to think about. 
There’s nothing particularly elegant about the way “Planet of the Humans” arrives at that downbeat thesis. Though well-shot and edited, the material here is simply too sprawling to avoid feeling crammed into one ungainly package even narrator Gibbs admits “might seem overwhelming.” Still, medicine is medicine, and if these 100 minutes leave a bitter taste, you’re still probably better off for having swallowed their dose of sobering awareness.

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## johnc

A simple summary would suffice, "lies disguised as trash" there much easier.

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## John2b

So now I have read the précis is there a reason for the post? Is there some illuminating point _you_ wanted to make?

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## Spottiswoode

> So now I have read the précis is there a reason for the post? Is there some illuminating point _you_ wanted to make?

  I suspect the title of the thread might be a hint as to the point intended to be made.  
Green energy or fossil fuels either way it seems that our flat out consumption, and the mega corporations of the world are the bigger problem.

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## Marc

Spottis on.   :Smilie:  
If you think that "green energy" or reduce the "Carbon" footprint will save the world, you are deluded. Green and fossil fuels are one and the same and all the different fashionable "new" waves of so called green, eco friendly and the rest of the trashy adjectives, are hand in hand.  
Green is just the new facade for the fossil fuel corporations. The mignons with the placards are just the unsuspecting, unenlightened foot soldiers doing the dirty work for the numerous fossil fuel moguls.  
Nothing that we do, be it solar, wind, bio etc, makes hardly any difference, and nothing would be possible without fossil fuels ... in fact all those initiatives that appear so well intentioned, all they do is promote more fossil fuel consumption and pollute much worse than the fuel they pretend to replace.

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## johnc

Good to see you keeping up your standards

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## Uncle Bob

Someone needs to tell Elon Musk that this green energy is a delusion. He's staked like half of his fortune on it (and seems to be doing all right out of it). He aint stuffing trees in furnaces to power his plants, though he did cut down quite a few to build the German gigafactory.

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## John2b

> Spottis on.

   Oh I see, you have no insight or comment, just indulging in trolling. Seems to have worked.

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## Bart1080

Solar cells, I'm going to get some....not because of the green value (which I definitely support) but because of the "value" in driving down my energy usage cost.  Why would I say that?  Because they feed us all crap by never giving you the TRUE end to end life cycle energy cost of a solar cell and support systems (birth to grave).    I'd bet most of the life cycle energy it consumes is fossil fuels. I would love to know what its already consumed by the time its installed....betting its already consumed upwards of 80% to 120% of the total end to end energy lifecycle.  By installing solar cells really less than what we consume today?  You tell me, it doesn't take Einstein to work this one out when you look at the total end to end energy usage just to get that <20% energy efficient solar panel to your roof!!!   *Energy Source* *Method* *Detail*  Diesel/Petrol Excavators/Machinery, trucks, trains, ships, cars, planes oil/energy exploration and mining of the oil/energy product to produce the petroleum products for manufacturing and mining of all other products we use today, transportation of mine workers, fly in/fly out, cars etc  Diesel/Petrol Excavators/Machinery mine the various raw solar materials from the ground  Diesel/Petrol trucks, trains, ships, trains, trucks Transport this material to various factories to refine further to a raw "ingredients" - aluminium, silica, copper,plastic  Coal or other  make the raw ingredients  Diesel/Petrol/Coal trucks, trains, ships, trucks Transport  this raw ingredient to various factories to make the various"raw components" - copper wire, aluminium, plastic, electronics,solar cells    Diesel/Petrol trucks, ships, trucks Transport the various "raw components" to make the solar cells, invertor etc ready for selling to the market    Diesel/Petrol/Coal trucks, ships, planes, trains, trucks, cars Transport to transport to distribution centers all over the world    Diesel/Petrol trucks, cars Transport to transport to distribution centers owned by the retailer  Diesel/Petrol trucks, cars Transport to further distribution centers or shops owned by the retailer  Diesel/Petrol trucks, cars Transport to end consumer  Various Energy source trucks, cars to install the panels - using energy consuming equipment such as drills, even pliers have an energy usage signature to make a finally get into the hands of the Sparky, concrete and excavators if installing on ground mounts  Diesel/Petrol trucks, cars, motor cycles Transport all the employees to and from work everyday in ALL the previous steps so they can support their families.  NIL  :2thumbsup:  NIL  :Biggrin:  Ahhh, finally we have guilt free energy usage you say  :Smilie:  , even though the actual energy production of the cells is less than 20% efficient!!! but wait there is more carbon usage yet to be consumed  :No:   Various Energy source  energy pollution generated and consumed by the grid and retailers to support their operations including data centers and employees...unless your off grid!!  Diesel/Petrol/Various trucks, ships, planes, trains, trucks, cars How long will they last - depends on quality 5 to 30 years and at the end of that time if we as a society are responsible would recycle these but that also generates pollution through picking up the waste, transporting it to various points and locations to strip down the components recycle,re-manufacture, re-transport (what ever product its recycled into) back to the end consumer.        Note: I'm fully supportive of initiatives to drive down our environmental pollution of this little planet.  I'm sure we will get better at it but it sh@$s me that we are all fed bull sh@t and not given the facts. There's bull sh@t on both sides of the green debate, unless everyone is transparent then we will never know the real truth even though a good part of it is the human population explosion consuming everything!!!

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## Marc

When two seemingly opposing sides conflict, surprisingly and inevitably man takes sides based on the most superficial of aspects, and "likes" or "dislikes" based on values forgotten deep in the origins of his conscious life. 
In other words, when presented with two conflicting options we make a quick choice based not on the problem at hand but on a string of peripheral aspects that we find a way to line up with our past. 
Settled in their respective corners, crafted by years of decisions based on inherited values with no self input, the thought that such dichotomy is artificial can be too much for most.  
Life with black and white concepts is much more comfortable. Good and bad, left and right, up and down, _has_ to be how the world is. 
Anything attempting to alter what our own values tell us is the truth, must be an evil fabrication.  
The key is in the word values. 
There are values that serve our advancement ... and others who I call 'anti values' that do not serve us ... however ... they may make us popular with our peers. And popularity is _very_ important. 
So called Green concepts are in appearance at loggerhead with fossil fuels. But they are not in reality, only on the surface, just enough to drum up support from those who line up with the "green" values.  
And fossil fuel supporters are supposedly enemies of greens, but they are not in reality. They are allies and the antagonism is just enough to appear different and line up support from the green haters. 
Not hard to find the answers, but who wants to find such answers that contradicts a generation of alliance, enthusiasm, patriotic flag waving and marching at the sound of the war drums handed down by our particular cultural bias?  
No one wants that. 
Better to stay curled under the shelter of our anti values. 
" And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" 
May be ... providing you define truth and freedom, and are prepared to do the changes they require.
Otherwise it may be much better to stay as you are. _
Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, 
for everyone can see and few can feel. 
Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.
                                                                              Niccolo Machiavelli_

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