# Forum Home Renovation Television, Computers & Phones  TV Antenna

## mjleguay

Hi everyone,
its been a long time since posting on this forum...Ive just recently purchased a federation house...so here we go for another renovation 😩.
just a quick question about the tv antennas on a house Ive just purchased. We have multiple sockets around the house. The only one which works is connected to the horizontal aerial (lower one). The other sockets are connected to the really tall thing which none of those sockets seem to work. Is the really tall one now obsolete and can I get rid of that and just split off the horizontal one?
thanks guys!  
Sorry...Im not sure why that photo ended up sideways..

----------


## droog

If the lower one is doing the job for you are not using the top one then get rid of it.
Not familiar with Sydney standards but other areas changed the polarisation of the transmission signal requiring different antenna for a period of time but should be standardised by now.

----------


## mjleguay

Great! Thanks for the quick reply Droog.

----------


## John2b

The big antenna is called a Phased Array and is quite old, although that model antenna is still available and useful in some areas, especially people in the rural fringe trying to receive metropolitan TV channels. It is for VHF Band III and the one in the picture has a optional VHF Band I gain lifter. Band III covers the channels 6-11 with the Band I gain lifter (the one longer bar at the bottom) boosting signal on the old analogue channels 0-2 which are now not used for television.  There used to be a second gain lifter installed on it up higher, but the elements have broken off. This antenna does cover all the digital channels used for primary metropolitan TV coverage, although it is likely unserviceable due to the age of the installation. Most likely the cable and splitters associated with it are not suitable for digital reception either. 
The small antenna at the bottom is called a Yagi and is UHF Band IV or V, for TV station repeaters for areas where the coverage from the primary transmitters is patchy. All the local channels should be in the repeater service.  
Interestingly both the large and small antennas are pointing in the same direction. Usually repeaters would be in a different direction to the primary transmitters.

----------


## mjleguay

Thanks John2b for such a detailed response.
when you say the cable and splitters may not work for digital tv...I thought all coax cables would still be able to work. Does that mean my plan of splitting off the one working line to the Yagi to connect the old ones won’t work?

----------


## John2b

It's quite likely that any pre-digital cable and splitters will just cause problems. Since the introduction of digital TV the performance requirement of cables, splitters and outlets is much more stringent. Quad shield RG-6 spec is the minimum requirement for cable for digital, and this has hugely better screening than any cable used for domestic TV installations pre-digital. Old coaxial cables are notorious for ingress of moisture and/or oxidation of the aluminium foil - both problems are digital TV stoppers. 
'F' connectors are preferred for all connections, except to the actual TV which has a 'PAL' connector. The old 'saddle and screw' connections used for analogue TV splitters will often cause problems with digital. Digital TV is infuriating when it doesn't work properly, so it's not worth stuffing around with old cables, splitters and outlets. Plus the proper bits are quite cheap anyway, so there isn't much of a saving. 
Your antenna may not have enough signal to run multiple outlets. If you do want to try splitting the signal, use a quality amplifier with two or more outlets. Something like this would do: https://www.kingray.net.au/au/distri...4-output-240v/
This will stop any problems on one cable affecting any of the other outlets, and give good signal strength at each outlet. You could try your old cables with this unit and see if they work!

----------


## FrodoOne

While you gave your location as "Sydney" in a "Federation House", that could mean that you are within 20 km of the CBD but you may be in a "difficult location" for receiving transmissions from the transmitters at "Gore Hill/Artarmon".
The "frequencies" of these "channels" are as follows  Affiliation Callsign Frequency Power (ERP) Pattern Polarisation Coverage Map Mast Site  Seven ATN6 177.500 Mhz 50.00 kW Omnidirectional Horizontal – TXA Willoughby Site Tower…  SBS SBS7 184.500 Mhz 50.00 kW Omnidirectional Horizontal – ABC Tower 221 Pacific…  Nine TCN8 191.625 Mhz 50.00 kW Omnidirectional Horizontal – TXA Artarmon Site Tower…  Ten TEN11 219.500 Mhz 50.00 kW Omnidirectional Horizontal – TXA Artarmon Site Tower…  ABC ABC12 226.500 Mhz 50.00 kW Omnidirectional Horizontal abc.net.au TXA Artarmon Site Towe   
Because of the topography of Sydney, there are "repeater" transmitters servicing areas around Kings Cross and Manly on UHF Channels - and they are both on the same set of frequencies.  *Kings Cross and Manly Digital TV Channels*  Affiliation Callsign Frequency Power (ERP) Pattern Polarisation Coverage Map  Seven ATN28 529.500 Mhz 650.00 W Directional Horizontal –  ABC ABC30 543.500 Mhz 650.00 W Directional Horizontal abc.net.au  Ten TEN31 550.500 Mhz 650.00 W Directional Horizontal –  SBS SBS32 557.500 Mhz 650.00 W Directional Horizontal –  Nine TCN33 564.500 Mhz 650.00 W Directional Horizontal –   
See https://ozdigitaltv.com/transmitters/NSW/ 
Without knowing your location, I can only suggest that you should determine on what frequency/channel you are now receiving TV transmissions.
Your larger/higher antennae are designed to receive transmissions from the VHF operating frequency range:170-230MHz of Gore Hill.
The other antenna is designed to receive the transmissions from UHF channels 21-69 
 It may be that your house is located in a "difficult location" and that the complex VHF antennae were erected to receive the signals on the VHF "band" before the UHF "repeater" frequencies became available. 
It is up to you to determine what frequencies/channels are being received - Digital TV receivers tend to set themselves to the strongest signal "automatically" when "tuning", so you may need to do a little investigation of that which the TV can tell you. 
If your best signal is from a UHF repeater, go for that and rewire your premises accordingly.

----------


## Marc

I am in the Sydney "fringe" and have zero signal from any TV station or mobile tower. 
Decades ago with analogue TV we had antennas fixed to the tip of a mountain at the back of the house, and run hundreds of meters of cable down the hill, across a road and in the house. It worked until the critters started to chew on the cable and off we went to lay another cable. It was fun in a way, especially the part where we had to string the cable across the road between electricity poles. 
This days we resigned to "regional" TV off a satellite, and enjoy the marvels of Alice Springs, North Queensland and NT TV. I particularly like their ads.

----------


## mjleguay

Thanks guys again.
Im sorry...I havent updated my address. Im now in the Southern Highlands of NSW. Moss Vale specifically.
I will plan on rerunning RG6 Quad shield to the outlets I want to keep and replace splitters etc and see if that all works off the Yagi before touching the big one...

----------


## John2b

Your repeater is near Mittagong, which explains why the UHF antenna is pointing the same general direction as the large VHF antenna, because from Moss Vale, Sydney is beyond Mittagong in the same direction. 
The big old antenna (a Hills CA-16 or similar) is a waste of time, unless you are prepared to take it down and clean the rust and corrosion from all of the bolts holding the elements in place so that each element makes a good electrical connection to the frame or the feed-ins, depending on its location. Then you will need to replace the balun with a digital compliant one (f-connector style) and replace the feed cable. And of course this antenna gets its signal from Sydney's primary digital transmitters at Crows Nest, and is well outside the coverage range for that service, so you'll most likely need a mast head amplifier at the antenna, and accept that weather related incidents may cause your digital reception to fail. Here's a map of the Sydney digital TV coverage, above the blue line. Moss Vale is on the wrong side of Mt Lindsay. Better to get the amplifier I recommended in a post above and take signal from your newer UHF antenna and local repeater service.

----------


## Tools

Seems like there are a couple of guys here that know their antennas. So what is a good brand and what brands should be avoided, or are they all much of a muchness? Are antennas from Bunnos ok? 
Tools

----------


## John2b

> Seems like there are a couple of guys here that know their antennas. So what is a good brand and what brands should be avoided, or are they all much of a muchness? Are antennas from Bunnos ok? 
> Tools

  The question "What is a good antenna?" can't be answered properly without knowing the location, what channels are wanted, how many outlets will be connected, and does it need to pick up FM and DAB+ radio signals as well. 
And in general antennas from *name your hardware store here* are are designed to extract money from wallets, rather than TV signals from the ether. Which is not to say that they don't sell anything useful if you know what you need, but don't expect the staff to be able to help.

----------


## mjleguay

Im not sure what I used to do before forums like this were available, but the level of expertise I get is amazing. And satisfying to learn how things I have no idea about work in detail, so thank you!

----------


## John2b

> I’m not sure what I used to do before forums like this were available, but the level of expertise I get is amazing. And satisfying to learn how things I have no idea about work in detail, so thank you!

  We've been waiting ages for you to come along so we can let this knowledge out at last. Don't leave it so long next time �� 
PS: it's probably a good idea to take down the old windjammer and reduce the wind load on your historic chimney.

----------


## FrodoOne

Moss Vale is not Sydney and the transmitters for that area are located on Mount Gibralter. *Bowral/Mittagong Digital TV Channels at Mount Gibraltar*  Affiliation Callsign Frequency Power (ERP) Pattern Polarisation Coverage Map  Seven CBN46 655.500 Mhz 1.00 kW Directional Horizontal –  ABC ABC47 662.500 Mhz 1.00 kW Directional Horizontal abc.net.au  Nine WIN48 669.500 Mhz 1.00 kW Directional Horizontal –  SBS SBS49 676.500 Mhz 1.00 kW Directional Horizontal sbs.com.au   Ten CTC50 683.500 Mhz 1.00 kW Directional Horizontal –   
From your location, "Sydney" is probably in roughly the same direction as Mount Gibraltar, so those VHF antennas were used "way back" before the "repeater" on Mount Gibraltar was in existence. 
If the UHF antenna is working to receive a satisfactory signal on *one* TV receiver there is no need to replace it. 
If you wish to provide a good signal for a number of TV receivers/recorders etc, it *may* be necessary to install an amplified splitter.
However, because the distance from Moss Vale to the transmitter on Mount Gibraltar is only about 12 km, an *amplified* splitter *may* not be necessary. 
I suggest that you try rewiring initially with one or more "normal" splitters - however you wish to configure the wiring.  Replace the initial splitter with an amplified one *only* if the passive splitters give unsatisfactory signal strength. 
(Passive splitters are relatively cheap and it is possible to amplify to too strong a signal, if you are close to a transmitter.) 
From personal experience, when moving from a location 18 km from the Melbourne transmitters on Mount Dandenong to 11 km from those same transmitters, while an amplified splitter worked at the initial location, at 11 km from the transmitters amplifying to an 8-way splitter set-up resulted in overloading the input to the receivers concerned and was unnecessary - in fact, harmful!
Of course, the transmitters on Mount Gibraltar are only 1 kW - unlike the 50 kW transmitters in Sydney and Melbourne. 
As *John2b* wrote "PS: it's probably a good idea to take down the old windjammer and reduce the wind load on your historic chimney."

----------


## Marc

> We've been waiting ages for you to come along so we can let this knowledge out at last. Don't leave it so long next time ��

  That is a very strange reply to someone thanking you John ... what else have you been holding on with baited breath? Do you know anything about reloading?  :Smilie:

----------


## John2b

The black smudges at the end of my comment is a smiley that was meant to reveal an attempt at wit, but strangely isn't reproducing. I'll take on board my witlessness, cheers Marc. 
Your comment on needing to use VAST for your TV service makes me wonder if you have an alternative. We are in a VAST satellite service zone, but I've managed to extract a DTV signal through the supposed ironstone hills that block the line of sight to Adelaide's TV transmitters on Mt Lofty, partly because of the desire for FM and DAB+ radio stations, and partly because no one around here using VAST is entirely happy with it. 
I decommissioned the VAST receiver in our house when we bought without bothering to set up an account to try it. I experimented with an old giant CA-16 antenna like that in the OP before committing to a new antenna. Google Earth allows a vertical elevation to be drawn between two points so I could see just how much shadow our location is in.

----------


## Marc

Everyone uses VAST around here. The mountain ... actually a hill, is right behind the house and goes up easy 100 meters, perhaps more, blocking all signals, TV, radio and phone. I suppose I could make my own repeater and place it on top of the hill ? No idea how though. Will have to be solar powered. Need a dish to receive and a dish to deliver?
I already mow the lawn of the council reserve for free ... deliver TV to the neighbours too?  :Smilie:  
Probably not worth it considering the rubbish that is delivered on free TV in Sydney anyway. Not much of an improvement. May be better to pay for a dish to get TV from ... Europe? The back of the house faces empty sky north. That is where the Sky Muster is. 
The only negative of VAST is the programming that is 30 years behind the times, ( Van Damme and Chuck Norris) and the loss of signal with heavy rain. I know everything about stockman vaccines, Tractors, 4wd parts suppliers, fertilisers, psychological advice to remote areas dwellers and fencing ...  :Smilie:

----------


## Bros

> I decommissioned the VAST receiver in our house when we bought without bothering to set up an account to try it

   Why did you do that? I built a vast receiver out of an old Austar dish and new LNB when we had our caravan and I could use it anywhere and an advantage I could use the various ABC across the continent like a recorder just bu using the different times.

----------


## Marc

How did you do that? Don't you need the box besides the dish? My new (3 years) box just carked it and sent to repair. Expect to pay $120. Was sent to Queensland  :Confused:  
I am supposed to leave it on 24/7 but i switch all off when not in use. That is the reason given to me for the failure.

----------


## Bros

> How did you do that? Don't you need the box besides the dish? My new (3 years) box just carked it and sent to repair. Expect to pay $120. Was sent to Queensland

  Yes I had a decoder and it wasn’t near the dish but inside the van but I should have said I built up the kit from parts rather than buy a kit.

----------


## Marc

Those things are a mystery to me.
Reminds me the stories my dad used to tell me when he was a POW and they built a radio receiver concealed inside a canteen.

----------


## John2b

> Why did you do that?

  I like to keep things simple. One less box to feed with electricity and to have to nurse along through, firmware updates, bureaucracy and brain fades. Our TV has built in DVR which easily records series, automatically keeping up with schedule changes and allowing us to skip ads on playback. 
I was interested in Impaja etc, but actually we watch little live TV and stream a lot of content. Fortunately we are on a community fixed wireless ISP which is cheaper and much faster than any regular NBN service, and we use that for mobile phone coverage as well (using the wifi setting in the phones) to overcome Telstra's world beating coverage dodgyness here. The NBN and mobile services seem to go down together in sympathy with monotonous regularity here on the small % of Kangaroo Island they cover anyway. 
I suspect there would be a lot more streaming of content in Australia if, thanks to successive govmint's business model for the NBN, the country hadn't parted with South Korea and Japan to join company with Uruguay and Kazakhstan on internet speeds.

----------


## phild01

> Our TV has built in DVR which easily records series, automatically keeping up with schedule changes and allowing us to skip ads on playback.

  What TV is it, my pvr does the same, be good to know what other devices can do this.

----------


## Bros

> Our TV has built in DVR which easily records series, automatically keeping up with schedule changes and allowing us to skip ads on playback.

   To much like putting all your eggs in the one basket for me, mine are separate.

----------


## John2b

> To much like putting all your eggs in the one basket for me, mine are separate.

  Outside of Panasonic's models, hard drive recorders are one of the most unreliable things sold. I've got some in my workshop to prove the point (not mine, customers). I can happily live without more remote controls and more things to go wrong, more cables, more power leads - all I need is one working egg and then I can spend more money on a better egg. I have a 9 year old Loewe TV that still produces a better picture IMHO than the current crop of Korean and Chinese UHD OLED screens. Plus it's a pleasure to use with menus that make sense and a full onscreen instruction manual in lucid English. On top of that the TV was designed with programmable logic arrays instead of the more common chipset building block approach, which means it can be updated by firmware to do things not even thought of when it was made. The chassis is still supported by Loewe who issued an update to the firmware only last year to add the latest developments to the DVBt standards like audio description. Name any Asian tv manufacturer that would do that!

----------


## John2b

> What TV is it, my pvr does the same, be good to know what other devices can do this.

  Individual 55 Compose LED 400. It's my third Loewe LCD and the people who bought the old ones still occasionally contact me to say how thrilled they are with their (now ancient) Loewe TVs with built in HDR.

----------


## UseByDate

> Seems like there are a couple of guys here that know their antennas. So what is a good brand and what brands should be avoided, or are they all much of a muchness? Are antennas from Bunnos ok? 
> Tools

  My recommendation would be Matchmaster. I have tried other brands and some of them have only lasted 6 months before they corroded. I live close to the sea an corrosion is a big problem. Finally I got a Matchmaster 03MM-DR3018. Built like a brick sh*t house and no corrosion problems for the last 20 years.   https://www.matchmaster.com.au/categ...l-tv-antennas/

----------


## Bros

> Outside of Panasonic's models, hard drive recorders are one of the most unreliable things sold.

  Well seems like I am lucky.

----------


## John2b

UseBydate I don't doubt that Matchmaster is good, but why do you need such a serious antenna (it's over 3 metres long)? 
I've never had a problem with Hills antennas that are designed and manufactured in Adelaide, although some series were better than others. I am using a Hills DY-10, though by rights I should have bought the larger DY-14, basically Hills version of yours, but chose the smaller one due to our regular 100kph wind gusts.

----------


## UseByDate

> UseBydate I don't doubt that Matchmaster is good, but why do you need such a serious antenna (it's over 3 metres long)? 
> I've never had a problem with Hills antennas that are designed and manufactured in Adelaide, although some series were better than others. I am using a Hills DY-10, though by rights I should have bought the larger DY-14, basically Hills version of yours, but chose the smaller one due to our regular 100kph wind gusts.

  I bought the antenna when we still had analogue TV. I live in a really bad (much worse in the past) area for TV reception. There is a hill between my house and Mt Lofty, so no direct line of sight. There was a massive multi-path signal in one of the rear side lobes of the antenna from Port Stanvac refinery and when the oil tankers were unloading oil, a 300 metre long oil tanker making a perfect corner reflector (90 degree between side of tanker and sea) in the antenna rear lobe. The signal being reflected from the oil tanker was often greater than the direct  front lobe signal but of course variable as the ship moved. So the TV would keep changing sync between the front lobe signal and the rear lobe signal. Basically an unwatchable picture. I had to choose an antenna with as much forward gain as possible with small side lobes and a large forward/back ratio. At the time of purchase, I think, only Matchmaster was selling domestic VHF Yagi antennae. Even early digital receivers could not cope with the varying signal strengths and signal interference.   
 As you know Pt Stanvac refinery was demolished and of course no oil tankers moored off shore so we now have a much cleaner TV signal so lower quality antennae may work.

----------


## fredgassit

Why not make one? https://www.digitalhome.ca/forums/an...velopment.186/

----------


## mjleguay

Ok guys...update.
Ive rewired with RG6 Quadshield and replaced tv points with f-type sockets. I’ve now run my aerial wire to a central electronics cupboard, installed the Kingray amplified 4 way splitter. Have got most of the channels, but not all of the ones I had before. 
I forgot to mention, that before I had a single amplifier on the line which serviced just one tv point. It’s a Kingray PSK06F.
if I take out the 4 way amplifier and put in the old one, I get all the channels at each new point individually. So I’m assuming that the one line original amplifier is more powerful than the new one I have? Does that sound right? Does anyone have any suggestions on a solution?.

----------


## mjleguay

Hang on...
ive now plugged the original booster into the line into the amplifier/splitter and got all channels back on all sockets. I hope that’s not dodgy?

----------


## John2b

The PSK06F is not a booster, it is a power injector there to feed power up the cable to a mast head amplifier, which is the little black box on the mast below the antenna in your picture. That mast head amplifier will not pass signal if it is not getting power! 
Because your antenna system does have that mast head amplifier, you may already have enough signal to split four ways without a distribution amplifier. 
Many TV sets allow you to see the signal strength the TV is getting if you drill down through the TV setup menu to the manual tuning section for individual channels. The signal strength for the channel being tuned is usually indicted by a line graph with red (poor) yellow (marginal) and green (good) sections. 
If your signal strength is in the green zone on all the channels you want, then all's good. If it's in the yellow zone, you might want to use the distribution amplifier in place of the splitter to get signal strength up into the green zone, otherwise you may have weather dependent glitches and freezes on your TVs. Of course, you'll need to keep the PSK06F connected upstream of the distribution amplifier to keep power going to the masthead amplifier.

----------


## mjleguay

Thanks again John!

----------

