# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Where should the downlights be placed?

## Rayess

I am renovating our apartment and the builder wants to put the downlights in a straight line in the kitchen 
I am concerned about shadows but havent a clue on the best way. 
i am attaching my floor plan and ktichen.  Can you advise where the downlight should be in lounge, dining and kitchen. ( note the kitchen walls have been removed and it is now an open plan kitchen) 
also what would be the approx cost to supply and install each downlight?

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## Bloss

Seriously - in the bin! Halogen downlights are about as expensive and inefficient lighting you can buy. They are as cheap as chips from China - there are better alternatives so visit a lighting shop and ask a lot of questions. You can get better lighting result for the same money. Do some googling too and that'll tell you a few things too eg: LED downlights - do I need an electrician? « Alternative Technology Assn Forums and this one is old, but the facts are still OK Four Corners - 29/06/2007: NOTE ON HALOGEN DOWNLIGHTS and Downlights Buying Guide - Biggest Range at The Best Prices with Full Money Back Guarantee. 
But when I say look at alternatives I mean don't use downlights at all - they do what they are called - they throw light down - and not mostly where you need it! A single batten holder with a single CFC or LED lamp bulb and a shade will light most room better than 6 or 8 downlights at a fraction of the running cost and lasting several times as long - in the case of LEDs for 25-30 years! Not a big issue in a toilet or other place where the light is switched on irregularly and is on for a short time, but in living areas it is simply a cheap option for the builder/ sparky. In modern homes downlights can be 30% of you power bill - a 50W halogen plus transformer is around 60-65W - so they quickly add up in power use - and as I said give poor light except where you need focused bright light where they can work well (but even then  there are better options usually!)

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## Rayess

Hi I completely forgot to say yes they are LED downlights. Sorry

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## GraemeCook

> Hi I completely forgot to say yes they are LED downlights. Sorry

  
As Bloss says, all downlights are grossly inefficient, and they only focus the light down - in a kitchen you want fairly uniform bright like on all working surfaces.  Bin them with Bloss's halogens. 
In the lighting efficiency stakes: 
* tungsten and halogen lights are equally inefficient.
* CFC's and LED are both equally efficient - use half the electricity as halogens.
* old style long fluoros use about half the elctricity as CFC's & LEDs. 
We have three 25 watt CFC's in our kitchen with very large shades (to spread light best) and we are considering putting strip lights under overhead cabinets.   Shadows plus light intensity. 
Fair Winds 
Graeme

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## Bloss

> Hi I completely forgot to say yes they are LED downlights. Sorry

  Ah - well that's great - but make sure you know what lumens the LED's are producing as there are plenty of rubbish LEDs around which do not output much. Really good ones will be about 160-200 lumens a watt - so >700 lumens for a 3W lamp. But most under $40 will be much less than that - say 450-550 lumens for a 7-8W lamp or 50-80 lumens Watt! 
For general lighting in the living areas simply in a square - depends on furniture placement a little and also how much task lighting you intend to use ie: standard lamps or wall mounted etc. Overheads on bottom of cupboards are fine and they work well in that situation. Without being on site I think it is v. hard to offer much guidance on location. If yiou have an architect or draftsperson or even get some time to learn Google Sketchup - these 3D CAD type programs allow you to place lights and see where the light falls and show overlaps & shadows etc. 
Aside from the costs of the LEDs lamps the cost of installation should be no more - they use standard wiring, standard switching and can be dimmed too - the sole extra cost should be for the lamp itself and get the ones which include the driver (all the electronics to make the LEDs work within the single unit) if you can although external driver lights can be cheaper. 
Real question is how long will you be living in the reno? LEDs at present offer value as long term investments - payback is >7-10 years for most. This is still leading edge technology and as usual early adopters  the highest price. Prices are reducing rapidly so might be worth the wait - they are plug compatible so can be retrofitted into most light fittings. If you plan on not being there that long then maybe CFCs are a better choice with some energy saving halogens (35W or even 20W rather than 50W) where you want dimming. I have CFCs in switched banks and they work well in place of dimming with not to much to set up that way.

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## Bruiser

...and back to the actual QUESTION! 
My place has 4 downlights above the benchspace in the kitchen, in a line.  Plus a Fluoro.  And the range has its own light.  We use the downlights for task lighting, and the fluoro for 'space' lighting.  So I think you're right about avoiding a straight line through the middle - get your downlights above the work space, even a tad away from centre (I'm assuming there are walls?  Ours is an island bench. 
Consider a low wattage light above the middle just as a 'house warmer' - more for when you're walking past. 
As for lounge/dining, not sure on your dimensions, but we have 4 in our dining area, 9 in our lounge.  2 in our laundry.  They're set in square grids, pretty much centred on the room in terms of spacing.   
I agree with the foregoing comments.  I've tried LED downlights and found them to be hopeless - not enough light, but I'm aware there are some good ones for lots more cost.  (and sometimes they interfere with TVs). 
I use the halogen downlights for task lighting (they are very bright, very good for cutting, cleaning dishes etc), and fluoros for general night time lights on time.  I worked out it costs 1c per hour to run a 50W halogen downlight, and they do tend to be in groups of 3 or 4...

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## SilentButDeadly

Like the others have said...bin the downlights.  Use task orientated spots directly over the work areas with a general lighting infill from either a fluro or an LED panel.  Use GU10 rather than 12volt too 
Our kitchen has GU10 based twin or quad spots with a mix of 5W LEDs and 35W halogen lamps in them.  The lights were less than $50 but the LED globes were $35 each - however the quality of light from the warm white LED lamps excels that of the cheap halogens which actually came with the lights.  The lights are placed over the work areas, parallel with the kitchen benches then the spots are adjusted accordingly.  General lighting is provided by two round fluro oyster lights that will be binned shortly for similarly sized LED panels as the current lights are spectacular bug catchers... 
Elsewhere...wall lighting or dispersed lighting is more effective than task lighting.  Upwards pointing floor lamps in the corners can effectively light large spaces.  Equally, normal floor lamps provide sufficient task light for reading even for a three seater lounge.  Dining areas can be dealt with using wall lamps rather than task lamps since you are eating dinner...not conducting surgery.  Restaurant tables aren't directly lit for that very reason!!

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