# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  Thread seal and plumbers tape - Leakage - Suggestions?

## opinio

Hi, 
I am having a few issues with some 1" (25,mm) brass fittings I have on the pressure side (outlet) of my water pump (from my water tank) on the lines that go into my house. There are a few threads, mostly brass nipples at elbows and tees and at a check valve that are not sealing so well even though I am using plumber's tape. I am using the Bunnings brand Kinetic found here:  https://www.bunnings.com.au/kinetic-...-pack_p4920365 
My water pump is a mid-range SMH55 Onga pump so the pressure is nothing heavy duty but about mid-range for a residential pump. 
At first the seal is good but after a few minutes I can see a few beads of water forming at the edge of the seal and then eventually a drip every few minutes or so. 
It is fairly cold at the moment (Canberra) and the day I did the work it was almost zero degree C so the tape seemed a little tough and not as flexible as usual. I tried to get the brass and tape at room temp but I still have the problem. I am wondering if that is the issue.  
Any suggestions on thread seal technique or products that work well? 
Also I am trying to seal a 25mm brass elbow (F) onto a 25mm nylon male nipple with the same issue. I don't want to push it for fear of stripping it. 
Any suggestions? 
I was thinking of smearing the female thread with some gutter/roof silicon seal? I have never done that before but I am wondering if it seals up the fine  leaks? 
Thanks in advance for any comments.

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## ringtail

https://www.bunnings.com.au/loxeal-5...esive_p4920450 
this is good stuff and bunnings sell another one that works well too. I've used both for the last 10 years with zero issues.

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## opinio

Thanks Ringtail.I was looking at that.I have a few questions on it if you don't mind?.It replaces tape entirely right?How easy do the parts come apart? I ask that because some joins like elbow joints don't end up entirely screwed tight as you need alignment of pipes so I was wondering if there is enough friction for those joints to be tight. With plumbers tape you get that tightens with friction so the joints don't.Along the lines of the above question but the opposite... can you remove the joints easily and clean them or are they all gooed up?Having said the above, I am guessing the sealant is fairly rigid once it dries.

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## ringtail

Yep, no tape at all. Apply the sealant and position the joint and leave it. Doesn't matter if it's not tight like a taped joint, that's the point - it allows for perfect alignment. Yes they are difficult to remove but certainly nothing spanners can't handle.

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## opinio

> Yep, no tape at all. Apply the sealant and position the joint and leave it. Doesn't matter if it's not tight like a taped joint, that's the point - it allows for perfect alignment. Yes they are difficult to remove but certainly nothing spanners can't handle.

  What are your thoughts on using it on the nylon thread? The nylon thread is male and I am going to put a brass elbow on it. The nylon is that standard black poly irrigation material. Do you have any experience with using the Loxeal on that?

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## plum

> Hi, 
> I am having a few issues with some 1" (25,mm) brass fittings I have on the pressure side (outlet) of my water pump (from my water tank) on the lines that go into my house. There are a few threads, mostly brass nipples at elbows and tees and at a check valve that are not sealing so well even though I am using plumber's tape. I am using the Bunnings brand Kinetic found here:  https://www.bunnings.com.au/kinetic-...-pack_p4920365 
> My water pump is a mid-range SMH55 Onga pump so the pressure is nothing heavy duty but about mid-range for a residential pump. 
> At first the seal is good but after a few minutes I can see a few beads of water forming at the edge of the seal and then eventually a drip every few minutes or so. 
> It is fairly cold at the moment (Canberra) and the day I did the work it was almost zero degree C so the tape seemed a little tough and not as flexible as usual. I tried to get the brass and tape at room temp but I still have the problem. I am wondering if that is the issue.  
> Any suggestions on thread seal technique or products that work well? 
> Also I am trying to seal a 25mm brass elbow (F) onto a 25mm nylon male nipple with the same issue. I don't want to push it for fear of stripping it. 
> Any suggestions? 
> I was thinking of smearing the female thread with some gutter/roof silicon seal? I have never done that before but I am wondering if it seals up the fine  leaks? 
> Thanks in advance for any comments.

  
You're using the wrong teflon. Just use the standard white teflon tape. The pink stuff is not flexible enough and is probably not gripping to the thread. Don't, for godsakes use loxeal as suggested, by someone, I tried it once and I've been in the game for 35 years, no need for it, causes problems down the track.

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## ringtail

> What are your thoughts on using it on the nylon thread? The nylon thread is male and I am going to put a brass elbow on it. The nylon is that standard black poly irrigation material. Do you have any experience with using the Loxeal on that?

  Yep, heaps. No problem at all. Although the loxeal is NOT recommended for plastic fittings I have had no problems. I do find the other one that bunnings sells ( Boston liquid thread sealant) works fine on plastic too and it doesn't have any warnings about plastic like loxeal does. I've never had any problem using pink tape either. Must be my superior skills  :Wink:

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## opinio

> Yep, heaps. No problem at all. Although the loxeal is NOT recommended for plastic fittings I have had no problems. I do find the other one that bunnings sells ( Boston liquid thread sealant) works fine on plastic too and it doesn't have any warnings about plastic like loxeal does. I've never had any problem using pink tape either. Must be my superior skills

  I might use some Loxeal on some more permanent threads that I plan not to undo but I am wondering what the thread is like if I actually need to undo it? Sure, some spanners can undo the thread but is it messy and difficult to re-use the thread. For example, with plumbers tape you simply unwind it or hit it with a wire brush. What sort of mess does Loxeal leave? I am getting visions of trying to pick out dried glue-like residue from the female thread.

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## sol381

My plumber only ever uses loxeal on gas fittings.. should be ok using tape as long as you use heaps of it..

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## RodEye

I use Loktite 55 teflon string on brass threads all the time without any dramas (make sure you rough up the thread first). On plastic threads I,m more inclined to use  teflon tape (the white stuff, particularly when screwing into female plastic thread).
Would be very reluctant to use loxeal especially on plastic or if you're wanting to be able to dismantle fittings in future.

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## opinio

I'll use Loxeal on a couple of 'permanent' joints. But I am wondering when I hook this all up, and if I get a leak still, is there any easy way of cleaning the Loxeal off to re-apply? For example is there a solvent? Turps or spirits for example? Or is it wire brush material. As it is anaerobic I am guessing it is soft when it hits the air and hard when it is sealed in the thread. I am not planning to dismantle at all, but my luck so far is not so good so I am planning for the worst when I hook it up this weekend and switch on the pump. 
Anyone know?

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## plum

As I said previously, I wouldn't use it.

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## opinio

> As I said previously, I wouldn't use it.

    Can you explain why? You just say it causes problems down the track and you would't use it. I'd just like to know what issues arise and why it is no good? Can you elaborate?

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## plum

I spend a lot of time repairing pipework done by non-plumbers, and it p155es me off when this sort of crap has to be cleaned off to actually do the joint properly. The philosophy in plumbing is that everything can be undone for maintenance or to add on. Sometimes it's real easy just to screw something on, or glue some pipe in, but it has to be done thinking, in the future, this may have to be undone for whatever reason.

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## RodEye

In retrospect you should use a tradesman to carry out the connections, so if there is any leaks it becomes the tradies problem with no extra expense all hassles on your behalf. You say most joints are permanent, yet you mention a check valve, which is something that may need servicing or replacement down the track. Also the connections to pump should be in the form of barrel unions or compression fittings for the same reason as the check valve. This in part forms some of the reasoning for not using sealants along the line of loxeal.

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## opinio

It is too hard to explain which parts are permanent and which parts need servicing. I am more looking for advice on sealants and tape. I have barrel unions at relevant spots and the dual check valves are serviceable. 
So anyway, I used some of the Loxeal on a few joints with success and also replaced the pink heavy duty tape with white general purpose tape and had good success. Ringtail reckons you can remove two parts that are sealed with Loxeal with spanners. No luck for me. Absolutely set solid. Even Loxeal says the sealant is not permanent but I beg to differ. It may be because I am using 25mm/1" and the thread was deep so there was a lot of thread to grab. But I could fix the ball valve anyway because I just rebuilt the ball valve instead of removing it. All good, but the Loxeal is a lot stronger than I expected. It may have been because it was only 2C so perhaps if I warmed it up a little. 
The I had a fail on a ball valve though. Separate to anything above, it appears the ball valve was not sealed well when it was made. Well the Loxeal is a lot stronger than I expected.

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## ringtail

I never said it was easy  :Tongue:  but it's definitely not a problem for me. You will need decent spanners not crappy little 200 mm shifters. The cold is working against you though. A bit of heat from a mapgas torch would make life easy for you. Then again, now you have some experience with the product so you can now make your own informed decisions as to whether you use it or not. The other liquid thread sealer is not as strong as the loxeal and may be a better solution for you. I've never had a ball valve fail. Was it a decent quality one ?

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## opinio

> I've never had a ball valve fail. Was it a decent quality one ?

  I was the Kinetic chrome plated brass 25mm job from Bunnings. So no, it was not a decent quality one. Still, I have used a few of them on my water tank and they are fine. I get most my stuff from Southern Cross Plumbing in Canberra and they are good but some of the things I get from Bunnings. This was one of them. The screw thread on the ball valve was leaking with a drop or two every few minutes. By thread I mean the M/F midway thread that the manufacturers do up when they make the ball valve, not the two female ends. Luckily I had my trusty Loxeal to fix it. I may have loosened it when I was doing the brass nipples up as well.  
I think the cold made the undoing of the Loxeal part really hard. To tell you the truth I tired once and felt it was fairly tight and thought stuff it I'll fix the ball valve in situ instead of removing it. I was gonna return it but the fix was easier. No leaks now though. 
Do you find with the Loxeal is it holds up over time or is there degredation?

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## plum

I repeat   

> As I said previously, I wouldn't use it.

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## opinio

> I repeat

  I appreciate you telling me multiple times not to use it but you still haven't told me what is actually wrong with it? Seriously, I would really like to know. For example does it degrade over time or loosen in the summer or become brittle in the winter or is it just hard to clean up? 
I am using it sparingly anyway. Just on some joints that I want to hold in place which, if I have to, can be replaces fairly cheaply anyway.

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## ringtail

No it doesn't degrade over time. Plum it's not like the OP is brazing the joints together. They are totally servicable with the right tools. Opinio now has first hand experience with the product and can now make his own informed​ decision.

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## VVV

> I appreciate you telling me multiple times not to use it but you still haven't told me what is actually wrong with it? Seriously, I would really like to know. For example does it degrade over time or loosen in the summer or become brittle in the winter or is it just hard to clean up? 
> I am using it sparingly anyway. Just on some joints that I want to hold in place which, if I have to, can be replaces fairly cheaply anyway.

  I'm putting a shower mixer inside the wall so interested as well. Is it degrading over time? 
I usually use yarn+tape (or overseas old school plumbers are even adding some oil paint) but looks like Loxeal is a decent stuff?

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## Bros

I've been sick of pipe joints leaking with thread tape now I run a small amount of hemp in the thread then top it off with teflon tape, no more leaks.

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## plum

> I've been sick of pipe joints leaking with thread tape now I run a small amount of hemp in the thread then top it off with teflon tape, no more leaks.

  If Teflon is used correctly, one never has leaks.

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## VVV

> I've been sick of pipe joints leaking with thread tape now I run a small amount of hemp in the thread then top it off with teflon tape, no more leaks.

   same thing. not sure what it's called, yarn or hemp )))

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## cyclic

> If Teflon is used correctly, one never has leaks.

  Correct.

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## Bros

> If Teflon is used correctly, one never has leaks.

  Not all plumbers use it correctly then. I have a mate who is a plumber and I asked him what he uses. He said if the fitting is where it is not easy to get to he uses hemp and Teflon tape and he gave me some of his hemp.

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## opinio

> I'm putting a shower mixer inside the wall so interested as well. Is it degrading over time? 
> I usually use yarn+tape (or overseas old school plumbers are even adding some oil paint) but looks like Loxeal is a decent stuff?

  I had good success (100%) with using Loxeal on the unions that I used it on. I found though it is not as temporary as some claim. Plus you may not even get the thread clean enough to re-use the thread anyway. Perhaps it was because I was using 1" threads and therefore there was more thread to grab and more Loxeal being used, but I found it impossible to pull apart a few of the unions that I tested it on. If there is a good hex surface for the spanner to grab then ok, but if not, the spanner would slip.  
That doesn't bother me though because I only used it on certain unions I wanted permanent and always used teflon tape on the areas I will need to remove. 
I say all that because I would not advise on using Loxeal on something like a mixer where the thread may be permanent if you cannot remove it. You may have to rip apart the sink or wall if you cannot get the union apart. 
Summary, Loxeal is excellent, but I would argue from experience it is potentially permanent as well.

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## phild01

Out of spec fittings (I've had from bunnings), could be part of the issue.

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## Marc

I thought today plumbers have given up on Teflon tape and use Loctite 55 string (?)

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## plum

I see no reason to change from teflon. When you're on a good thing, stick to it.

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## Marc

That's what my son in law plumber tells me, but he is 25.
 I would use litharge and glycerine, mix in a rubber bowl, apply with fingers with a bit of hemp, and bob is your uncle. Don't lick your fingers though.  
Seriously, I used a bit of his Loctite string and find it much better than Teflon. Yes, I remember when Teflon was the bees knees with wow factor  :Smilie:

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## VVV

so, because my mixer has threaded 1/2" connectors and  I'm using Capillary connectors (soldering) is it better to use Loxeal for permanent connection?

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## opinio

> so, because my mixer has threaded 1/2" connectors and  I'm using Capillary connectors (soldering) is it better to use Loxeal for permanent connection?

  If you want semi-perm to perm on a thread then from my view Loxeal is really good. As I said, I had 100% success on the seal and holding the union. I had a bunch of 1" elbows and tees I wanted set in situ so when I service I don't have to worry about angles moving. I used teflon on the removable parts so it is still fully serviceable.

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## VVV

now I'm thinking why we're still soldering copper if there is such stuff like Loxeal...  just glue it ))

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## opinio

> now I'm thinking why we're still soldering copper if there is such stuff like Loxeal...  just glue it ))

  Just to be clear though, Loxeal works only on threaded unions (usually brass), not classic soldered copper pipe fittings. I have also used it on a brass to black PV union and it worked really well. I don't expect the PV union to be reusable if I rip it apart but it worked non the less. You basically run the Loxeal over the male thread and screw it in and you have a short time to set it in place. It sets fairly quickly. In about 15 mins from memory. Although it takes a day to fully cure. It's anearobic so it only hardens when there is no oxygen. It's bizarre. Opposite to normal glues. In the open air it is liquid. Once it is in the sealed thread it sets hard. For that reason, any run-off from the screwed in thread remains runny because it is still subjected to oxygen. I say that because there might be a tendency to have a thick bead around the screwed in thread as you might do with normal glue, but not Loxeal.

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## VVV

yeah. I've just used it on my mixer and needed to wipe out the bead around fittings cos it's not hardening ))) I hope it's sealed. Time will tell

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## ringtail

I have to ask, what spanners are you using to attempt to undo these joints ? A good pipe wrench will hold anytthing without a hex and all fittings that screw into unions have at least a 19 mm hex so a decent spanner can be used. Maybe I'm must used to things being tight. Nearly everything that others think is tight I find barely nipped up. I've never, ever had a drama removing a loxealed fitting. Cleaning the male threads requires a quick swipe with a wire brush and that is all. It doesn't have to be perfect as the threads are so agricultural anyway that a fresh dose of sealant will take up any irregularities no problem at all. Maybe eat some more weetbix  :Biggrin:

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## plum

> yeah. I've just used it on my mixer and needed to wipe out the bead around fittings cos it's not hardening ))) I hope it's sealed. Time will tell

  Just be clear what you have done.   Never do you weld fittings into mixer taps. Compression or crimped or push fit is the way.  What you have done has put undue heat on your mixer tap that has plastic components..... Have you installed non-return valves?

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## ringtail

Surely the pipes have been soldered into the unions then the unions fitted to the tap with the pipe stubs hanging out ?

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## VVV

> Surely the pipes have been soldered into the unions then the unions fitted to the tap with the pipe stubs hanging out ?

  yep. first everything soldered and then glued into the mixer. 
(assembled everything first, put center marks to help to position and to solder it without the mixer)

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## VVV

> .. Have you installed non-return valves?

   why?

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## commodorenut

Why?  Plumbing 101, and I'm not a plumber (but I have a good one).  It's all about water taking the path of least resistance.  A concept that few seem to understand. 
Pressure differential between hot & cold.   
Wait until someone is having a shower with the mixer open on a comfortable setting, and someone turns on the hot tap full blast, downstream from it.  It will draw cold via the mixer, rather than hot from the HWS.

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## VVV

> Why?  Plumbing 101, and I'm not a plumber (but I have a good one).  It's all about water taking the path of least resistance.  A concept that few seem to understand. 
> Pressure differential between hot & cold.   
> Wait until someone is having a shower with the mixer open on a comfortable setting, and someone turns on the hot tap full blast, downstream from it.  It will draw cold via the mixer, rather than hot from the HWS.

  people survived without NRV in a shower for 30 years  yes, this is uncomfortable.. )))
I'll consider adding it into the bathroom main inlet.
thanks

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## Marc

Mm ... is there a plumber in the house to redress this hullabaloo of misinformation pleeeeese.

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## VVV

> Mm ... is there a plumber in the house to redress this hullabaloo of misinformation pleeeeese.

   all plumbers are in the field ))

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## commodorenut

It's more prevalent with flick mixers than separate taps.

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## ringtail

> Why?  Plumbing 101, and I'm not a plumber (but I have a good one).  It's all about water taking the path of least resistance.  A concept that few seem to understand. 
> Pressure differential between hot & cold.   
> Wait until someone is having a shower with the mixer open on a comfortable setting, and someone turns on the hot tap full blast, downstream from it.  It will draw cold via the mixer, rather than hot from the HWS.

  More elaboration needed here me thinks CN. I don't doubt it happens but as pressure is exactly the same throughout the entire system not counting PLV's how can there be a path of least resistance? I don't think that's actually what happens in your scenario. I would say turning another hot tap merely splits the flow between the two taps and leaves full cold flow to the original. Since the cold will no doubt be fed from 3/4 pipe with a shorter run of 1/2 than the 1/2 from the HWS the cold will win all day. Just my take on it and more than happy to be corrected. Then I guess there is a difference (maybe) between gas, mains pressure systems and heat exchange types.  Maybe that new plumber kicking around can chime in. He seems a bit more proactive. 
What solder did you use on those pipes VVV ?

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## plum

> Why?  Plumbing 101, and I'm not a plumber (but I have a good one).  It's all about water taking the path of least resistance.  A concept that few seem to understand. 
> Pressure differential between hot & cold.   
> Wait until someone is having a shower with the mixer open on a comfortable setting, and someone turns on the hot tap full blast, downstream from it.  It will draw cold via the mixer, rather than hot from the HWS.

  100 per cent correct. I might add, someone in shower, cold water used in kitchen- person in shower is scolded.

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## plum

> people survived without NRV in a shower for 30 years  yes, this is uncomfortable.. )))
> I'll consider adding it into the bathroom main inlet.
> thanks

  Older systems, i.e. separate hot and cold taps are integrally non-return.

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## plum

And as possum has asked, don't tell us that's soft solder you've used.

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## MorganGT

> I have to ask, what spanners are you using to attempt to undo these joints ? A good pipe wrench will hold anytthing without a hex and all fittings that screw into unions have at least a 19 mm hex so a decent spanner can be used. Maybe I'm must used to things being tight. Nearly everything that others think is tight I find barely nipped up. I've never, ever had a drama removing a loxealed fitting. Cleaning the male threads requires a quick swipe with a wire brush and that is all. It doesn't have to be perfect as the threads are so agricultural anyway that a fresh dose of sealant will take up any irregularities no problem at all. Maybe eat some more weetbix

  I have the same issue with other people not tightening stuff as much as I do - some of the technicians I work with complain that I tighten joints too much and they can't undo them when they work on a machine I have serviced. But when I work on a machine they have worked on previously, I often find joints coming loose and leaking because they have barely nipped them up.
And I use a lot of Loxeal, and have never had a problem cleaning it out of threads to reuse fittings, even plastic fittings (although cleaning Loxeal off plastic without damaging the threads is harder than on brass).

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## ringtail

> I have the same issue with other people not tightening stuff as much as I do - some of the technicians I work with complain that I tighten joints too much and they can't undo them when they work on a machine I have serviced. But when I work on a machine they have worked on previously, I often find joints coming loose and leaking because they have barely nipped them up.
> And I use a lot of Loxeal, and have never had a problem cleaning it out of threads to reuse fittings, even plastic fittings (although cleaning Loxeal off plastic without damaging the threads is harder than on brass).

  I first used loxeal on my BZ99 after searching for a sealant for the heat exchanger. It met the specs and is fine for potable water so it got the nod. All good and no drama handling the heat. Maybe it's the motor mechanic in me but people just don't know what is tight or they are not capable of tightening things up. Not strong enough in the fingers and wrists. I see that a lot. Gym junkies weak as piss where it counts.

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## ringtail

> And as possum has asked, don't tell us that's soft solder you've used.

  I saw the distinct lack of heat used there and thought uh oh.

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## VVV

> What solder did you use on those pipes VVV ?

  just a regular kit from Bunnings (solder + flux) + propane torch.
My friend offered me a proper oxy-acetylene  but I never used gas welding... 
PS almost all hot pipes in the house are I believe 3/8". Was pain in the ass to find adaptors to 1/2" when I was doing laundry.. I just reused an old one..
 I'm going to finish shower in a few days so will see if I need a valve... 
PPS I used to use  this stuff overseas- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYNo3XGmIyc
much easier to work with than copper...

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## plum

The work you are doing is way off standard and illegal. Go and pay a plumber to do it right. 
Imagine if someone put up decking pics that was totally dodgy and illegal. All you chippy blokes would be having fits. LOL.

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## plum

> just a regular kit from Bunnings (solder + flux) + propane torch.
> My friend offered me a proper oxy-acetylene  but I never used gas welding...  
>  I'm going to finish shower in a few days so will see if I need a valve...

  Non-return valves aren't installed just for fun, by the way.

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## VVV

> And as possum has asked, don't tell us that's soft solder you've used.

   what's wrong with soft solder? 
BTW all pipe fittings in the house are yorkshire ones, which is soft solder right?
I can't find any explanations except "it's rubbish"... sounds like when 14yo saying "it sucks" )))  wiki- "Silver-bearing solder". Food service equipment, refrigeration, heating, air conditioning, plumbing.[24] Widely used. Strong lead-free joints. " - this is what I used

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## VVV

> Non-return valves aren't installed just for fun, by the way.

   my hot water pipes are 3/8 and cold are 1/2. We'll see if I need one.. still have open corner with bathroom inlet pipes..
thanks for pointing.

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## plum

> what's wrong with soft solder? 
> BTW all pipe fittings in the house are yorkshire ones, which is soft solder right?
> I can't find any explanations except "it's rubbish"... sounds like when 14yo saying "it sucks" )))  wiki- "Silver-bearing solder". Food service equipment, refrigeration, heating, air conditioning, plumbing.[24] Widely used. Strong lead-free joints. " - this is what I used

  So you've found a 12 year old thread with most of the posters not having a clue and a quote relating to silver bearing solder, which is not what you have used. You have used soft solder composed of lead and zinc. Go and check Wiki on the effects of lead in your drinking water.
Soft solder contains lead. Has not been legal for probably 20 years plus in Australia. 
YOU do not know the difference between Yorkshire joins under the house and silver solder joints as you've shown with the Wiki reference. 
Go and get yourself a plumber to do your plumbing legally and safely.

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## VVV

> So you've found a 12 year old thread with most of the posters not having a clue and a quote relating to silver bearing solder, which is not what you have used. You have used soft solder composed of lead and zinc. Go and check Wiki on the effects of lead in your drinking water.
> Soft solder contains lead. Has not been legal for probably 20 years plus in Australia. 
> YOU do not know the difference between Yorkshire joins under the house and silver solder joints as you've shown with the Wiki reference. 
> Go and get yourself a plumber to do your plumbing legally and safely.

  is this Yorkshire? 
 this is what I can see on my pipes 
isn't this lead free silver bearing solder?

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## plum

I'd prefer to see the stick of solder that you used on your joins and a picture of the fittings under the house.

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## VVV

> I'd prefer to see the stick of solder that you used on your joins and a picture of the fittings under the house.

    
oh.. and Loxeal on the new threaded joints...

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## plum

Silver bearing? What per cent? Must be a min. of 2 per cent.

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## VVV

> Silver bearing? What per cent? Must be a min. of 2 per cent.

  From the soldering classificatuon:
"Silver bearing solder" means 4% Ag and 96% Sn

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## plum

Where have you got those figures from?

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## ringtail

MSDS   http://industrial.companionbrands.co.../5199_file.pdf 
Doesn't appear to have much silver. Mainly tin.

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## plum

So much for 4 per cent VVV.

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## VVV

> Silver bearing? What per cent? Must be a min. of 2 per cent.

  http://www.copper.com.au/copper/wcms...ition-July.pdf   
I have a feeling this thread is going to nowhere )))) 
Based on the above MSDS and other crap, just one question- what exactly I did wrong? 
PS I decided to do not solder vertical pipes as planned from the beginning (on my picture you can see it)  so I added 2 L-pieces and soldered all together horizontally. I just feel this is better
So, this is the only thing I'd do differently from the beginning

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## chrisp

I've been following this thread with interest. It is fascinating to see a thread about a simple question result in so many posts. 
It is also interesting to see the somewhat combative tone emerge in this type of thread.  It makes me wonder if someone would post a 'how to' thread on make joints showing how it should be done. 
It would be good to get a more positive, and educational, tone to the forum rather than the "that's wrong" type of responses.   
If something posted is wrong, by all means point it out, but be prepared to say why it is wrong *and* point out how it should be done.

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## plum

With respect Chrisp, the moment I saw his first pic. of the shower mixer, it looked dodgy. Crap welding/soldering [ it will leak sooner than later ]. No nrv valves. Welding into the tap, a no-no. I personally would be ashamed to put my name to that work. Twice, I pointed out to get a plumber in to do it properly. 
I would never tell someone who is not a plumber and produces that type of work on how to do it.

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## Bros

> It is also interesting to see the somewhat combative tone emerge in this type of thread.  It makes me wonder if someone would post a 'how to' thread on make joints showing how it should be done. 
> It works be good to get a more positive, and educational, tone to the forum rather than the "that's wrong" type of responses.   
> If something posted is wrong, by all means point it out, but be prepared to say why it is wrong *and* point out how it should be done.

  Well Plum over to you.

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## plum

> Well Plum over to you.

  How it should be done? 
Not my job to do that.

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## Bros

> How it should be done? 
> Not my job to do that.

   No but you were adamant that you have to be some sort of expert to use thread tape but you were not forthcoming on how to do it.
You rarely post anything of value so here is your chance.

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## plum

Might be better to p.m.

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## Bros

> Might be better to p.m.

  No this would be value to many posters. So how about it in your own words not a Utube link.

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## VVV

)) 
1. Welded into the tap. -No, I didn't. Soldered all joints and then glued to the mixer. (Seriously, is it hard to think this way?)
2. Used wrong solder - No, I didn't. Proper plumbing solder in compliance with the Aussy "plumbing book". (2% Ag minimum, seriously?)
3. Didn't use tape - yes, I didn't. it's 2016 and time to move on. I did a thorough search and anaerobic adhesive is win-win everywhere  for new joints. I'm using tape when I have access to the fittings (not in walls)
4. NRV. I thanked for this comment but cos I have 3/8 hot water pipes vs 1/2 cold water (BTW this is about pressure) I'll see if I need NRVs. And, I wouldn't put them next to the mixer inside the wall. 
I was expecting to see any real useful comments from the plumber but... it's ended up with swearing and licensing show up... so pity..

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## ringtail

> )) 
> I was expecting to see any real useful comments from the plumber but... ..

  
Yeah mate, that's not going to happen anytime soon as you have discovered.

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## cyclic

VVV,
 the fittings you have used appear to be short engagement capillary which should only be used with high temp silver solder (min 2% I am informed) not soft solder, 
also, the last time I used yorkshire fittings was in the 70's because, to the best of my knowledge, yorkshire, as in soft solder fittings, were banned for use in sanitary plumbing installations.
I know you can buy soft solder but where you use it is another matter.
Your statement (btw this is about pressure) is incorrect as pressure is constant only when there is no draw off of supply, meaning when a tap is turned on it is then about flow, and knowing what you do, I am sure you can understand a 3/8 pipe will flow less than a 1/2", not only that but hot water, even with same size piping will always flow less than cold water for 2 reasons, one being the amount of valves/ restrictions not to mention the flow/pressure variance in the heater tank, and two being the fact the hot water is controlled by the cold supply meaning there is always going to be a take up period until the system settles.
I hope this clears things up a little.

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## cyclic

Now  "how to use thread tape".
Hold male fitting in left hand and apply tape starting at the top of the thread and away from you and roll it around the thread in a clockwise manner (looking at the thread)while running back and forth along the thread, making sure the tape stays flat and does not build up or knot/twist.
If you are left handed the opposite applies.
How many times around only comes with experience, and depending on the size and type of fitting and whether the fitting is tapered or parallel, but there is a fine line between sealing the joint and splitting a female brass fittings.
eg 1/2" fitting usually uses 6-10 runs of white and I have always found a little sealer/lubricant helps greatly. 
Sanitary Plumbing and Drainage should only be installed by a Licensed person. 
Bros, can we now nip this up.

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## VVV

> VVV,
>  the fittings you have used appear to be short engagement capillary which should only be used with high temp silver solder (min 2% I am informed) not soft solder, 
> also, the last time I used yorkshire fittings was in the 70's because, to the best of my knowledge, yorkshire, as in soft solder fittings, were banned for use in sanitary plumbing installations.
> I know you can buy soft solder but where you use it is another matter.
> Your statement (btw this is about pressure) is incorrect as pressure is constant only when there is no draw off of supply, meaning when a tap is turned on it is then about flow, and knowing what you do, I am sure you can understand a 3/8 pipe will flow less than a 1/2", not only that but hot water, even with same size piping will always flow less than cold water for 2 reasons, one being the amount of valves/ restrictions not to mention the flow/pressure variance in the heater tank, and two being the fact the hot water is controlled by the cold supply meaning there is always going to be a take up period until the system settles.
> I hope this clears things up a little.

   thanks *cyclic*. it's glad to see someone who understands stuff and willing to explain.. 
yes, the house was built in 70s hence  why yorkshire fittings used...

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## Bros

> Now  "how to use thread tape".
> Hold male fitting in left hand and apply tape starting at the top of the thread and away from you and roll it around the thread in a clockwise manner (looking at the thread)while running back and forth along the thread, making sure the tape stays flat and does not build up or knot/twist.
> If you are left handed the opposite applies.
> How many times around only comes with experience, and depending on the size and type of fitting and whether the fitting is tapered or parallel, but there is a fine line between sealing the joint and splitting a female brass fittings.
> eg 1/2" fitting usually uses 6-10 runs of white and I have always found a little sealer/lubricant helps greatly.

  Thanks for that and I believe that the problems I have is judging when enough it enough hence the addition of a very small amount of hemp which swells in the very tiny leak paths. I seem to have the thread tape getting pushed out the back of the fitting when screwing it on. Do you put any stretch on the tape so it fills the thread? I was surprised when about 15 yrs ago I saw a lot of fire plumbing installed and they told me only hemp is allowed in fire systems. As I said in one of my posts I have mate who is a plumber and he uses hemp and teflon tape.   

> Sanitary Plumbing and Drainage should only be installed by a Licensed person.

  For the benefit of other readers could you define Sanitary Plumbing eg is changing a tap or HW system or toilet cistern or as the poster has done fit a combination come under that term?   

> Bros, can we now nip this up.

  Waiting for Plums method of using thread tape.

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## plum

> Might be waiting a while Bros.  
> .

  
Waiting a while, eh Poss. Some people have to work. 
I think Cyclic summed up the application of teflon well enough.

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## Bros

I'm going to close this thread up now as I have moved several posts to a new thread in Debate and Technical Discussion. This will allow tradies the opportunity to state their case as far as information is concerned so be nice.

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## Bros

I recieved a pm from VVV who originally started this second section of the thread and while I will not repoen the thread i think he should,have the last word and it is as follows.
"*cyclic,
I had some doubts reading your comment so I've just measured the fittings I used and they are long engagement capillary (9+mm) so good to use with the soft solder.
Thanks again for pointing this out and not just saying - go and get a plumber. I learnt something new. 
I strongly believe that people who are not all thumbs and have brain can do any job right"*

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