# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Going rate for a sparkie

## Grumpy John

I got a phone quote from a sparkie today to put power points into my new shed. $90 per powerpoint  :Eek: , is this the going rate, or am I being got.
I may as well get one double powerpoint fitted and buy two of these. They're only ~$50 and you get 4 surge and overload protected double powerpoints.

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## Gooner

I can't answer that directly, but I obtained a quote a while back for around $560 to install a heater/fan/light thingy in a bathroom that had no plasterboard (I.e. extremely easy access for wiring) and the manhole was about 2 meters away from where the light was to go. Also an external spotlight which involved passing the cable down a wall to an existing light switch, and an extra powerpoint. No other work was required. That was it. 
I simply could not justify the expense no matter how hard I analyzed it.

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## jags

i rang one 30min ago and he said $90 per hour .I'm in Perth  
Hes got to put a outdoor gpo in for the retic , add three down light to the outdoor lighting and a few other thing so he better work fast . 
i would do it myself but i'm to afraid to ask for help as i don't wont to start the 700th debate on the subject .  
 I once had a bill explained to me as $5 for the service and $85 for the knowledge of how to do the job .  
Best of luck 
Rob j

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## zeeeb

I would say that's actually reasonably cheap. DP is a sparkie, he doesn't do residential anymore, but over 5 years ago when he did, he used to charge over $100 per point. Some sparkies will charge over $200.  
I guess they have to cover themselves for the cans of worms (bodge jobs) they seem to always encounter and have to fix to get it up to Aust. standards. That is the reason he won't touch anyone's house now except his own and his mums.

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## Pulpo

I think on new installs its $65 an outlet. 
But a one off one install I think $90 is reasonable. 
You could do all the hack work and save a little. 
Cheers 
Pulpo

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## Grumpy John

> I think on new installs its $65 an outlet. 
> But a one off one install I think $90 is reasonable. 
> You could do all the hack work and save a little. 
> Cheers 
> Pulpo

  That was getting half a dozen pp's, 2 lights and a circuit board and me supplying all materials except for the board. Basically labour only, and when I asked if I would get a certificate he said "'spose so".

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## Bros

I have to take my hat off to the contractors who give a price over the phone without seeing the job.  
Hourly rate is what I would expect.

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## China

In Adelaide the going rate is about $120 per pp

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## elkangorito

I remember back in the late 80's, the going rate to install 1 GPO in North Sydney was between $120 & $160.
If a sparky has a "GPO rate", I think that $100 for 1 GPO is fair. For multiple GPO's, I think that between $50 to $80 is fair. Of course, these rates apply to "site unseen".

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## Smurf

Any quote for any job "site unseen" will be allowing for all sorts of disasters the electrician (or other trade) may find upon arrival. 
Paying by the hour should work out cheaper if there are no unexpected electrical problems found that need rectification or issues with access, asbestos, rats or anything else like that.

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## Grumpy John

Basically the job is this, run power ~30 meters to the shed fit a new circuit board, 5 x 10 amp GPO's, 1 x 15 amp GPO and 2 flouros. The shed is a brand new 3mtr x 6 mtr Ranbuild, no wall coverings so no problems chasing wires behind plaster. *I will supply all materials* except for the circuit board. To me it seems a very easy job, no crawling around in a hot ceiling, no trying to get wires past noggins, no digging and no having to fix other peoples stuff ups, I just thought $90 *per* GPO was a bit steep.  BTW that's cash price, net, clear, no tax.

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## bugsy

whats the going rate for a hair cut these days?
$50?
$20? 
how many do you think a qualified hairdresser could do in an hour ? 2, 3, or 4? 
lets say he or she could make $100 quite easily, yes?
no one complains.
scissors and water 
Lawn mowers
what the going rate to get your lawns cut?
$25?
$30? 
How long does that take? 20mins, 30 mins?
They could be on $100 an hour.
no one complains. 
i could go on.
But really its a case of ringing as many you want to check out prices and then  compare what you get for your money

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## nww1969

It sounds about right.
I just won a new kleenmaid cooktop on graysonline for $57 
I got the local guy to connect, I took out the old placed the new one in so all he had
to do was connect the wires up, and I got a bill for $90.00 for 5 mins work. :Eek:  
So whats that a little over $1000.00 per hour. :Yikes2:  
Have more electrical work to do shortly and at present sounding all the neighbours out
on a cheaper lecky.

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## exotiic

> It sounds about right.
> I just won a new kleenmaid cooktop on graysonline for $57 
> I got the local guy to connect, I took out the old placed the new one in so all he had
> to do was connect the wires up, and I got a bill for $90.00 for 5 mins work. 
> So whats that a little over $1000.00 per hour. 
> Have more electrical work to do shortly and at present sounding all the neighbours out
> on a cheaper lecky.

  Ok lets say its $90.00 for 5 minutes work as you suggest. What about the travel costs to get there? The lost time between jobs? If he were to charge $90 for every 5 minutes whilst there fair enough but you have to remember he has to pay to get to your job. There are overheads which are divided between each job he has to do per day and as such has a minimum required rate. 
It seems that many people complain about spending the money and paying he amount for a company's or sole trader's wages, but then they want everything themselves.

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## Smurf

> Basically the job is this, run power ~30 meters to the shed fit a new circuit board, 5 x 10 amp GPO's, 1 x 15 amp GPO and 2 flouros. The shed is a brand new 3mtr x 6 mtr Ranbuild, no wall coverings so no problems chasing wires behind plaster. *I will supply all materials* except for the circuit board. To me it seems a very easy job, no crawling around in a hot ceiling, no trying to get wires past noggins, no digging and no having to fix other peoples stuff ups, I just thought $90 *per* GPO was a bit steep.  BTW that's cash price, net, clear, no tax.

  But if they're just quoting a flat rate per GPO, they have to take account of all those jobs where it's nowhere near as simple. The ones that do involve crawling through the roof, trying to get through the walls and so on.

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## Smurf

> It sounds about right.
> I just won a new kleenmaid cooktop on graysonline for $57 
> I got the local guy to connect, I took out the old placed the new one in so all he had
> to do was connect the wires up, and I got a bill for $90.00 for 5 mins work. 
> So whats that a little over $1000.00 per hour. 
> Have more electrical work to do shortly and at present sounding all the neighbours out
> on a cheaper lecky.

  5 minutes on the job maybe. But longer than that to fill out the paperwork that's required by law. And longer than that to buy materials. And longer than that to do all the other paperwork that's required for tax and general administration of the business. And don't forget travelling time. And the costs of owning/renting a business premises, office furniture etc. And the costs of the vehicle. And so on...  
If electricians could actually make $1000 an hour then they wouldn't work for one 30th of that for an employer. 
One very real example I was given recently was the seemingly simple task of changing a light bulb. For the (very large) organisation in question, it's taking over 2 hours per bulb once they do everything required under OH&S laws etc even though actually changing the bulb takes less than a minute. 
I had some solar panels installed this week. 2 hours on the roof working, another hour to set all the safety gear up and pack it up again. Plus more time in the driveway filling out forms - and no doubt more of that back at the office too. Plus travelling time. I asked a few questions and it turns out that they're going flat out to do 2 houses a day, that's just 4 hours actual work but it takes more than that once everything else is added on - and that's in Hobart where travelling times are short.

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## Grumpy John

> But if they're just quoting a flat rate per GPO, they have to take account of all those jobs where it's nowhere near as simple. The ones that do involve crawling through the roof, trying to get through the walls and so on.

  That's why you get a quote. To get a price for YOUR job, not a price that allows for all the problems they have on other jobs. The majority of these types of jobs are "cashies" and if, as in my case the customer is supplying the materials it's *all* profit.

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## wonderplumb

Awesome, its the sparkies turn to argue with the folk who think they are being hard done by courtesy of the sleazy tradesman! :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## nww1969

Just to defend my post.
I did mention he was local.
Actually 3 streets away and he had no material outlay just a simple connection.
And this was organized at the end of the day when I presume he was finishing 
the end of his day, probably had been  filling out all that paperwork he's only able 
to do and not actually any electrical work.

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## Grumpy John

> Just to defend my post.
> I did mention he was local.
> Actually 3 streets away and he had no material outlay just a simple connection.
> And this was organized at the end of the day when I presume he was finishing 
> the end of his day, probably had been filling out all that paperwork he's only able 
> to do and not actually any electrical work.

  Was this a cashie, or did you get a tax invoice?

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## Toothman

I've got a sparkie who does cash jobs, $50 an hour on the weekends. Spoke to a lighting shop today and asked them what they charge to get someone to install some lights I was interested in, $55 an hour. 
Cheers.

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## Smurf

> That's why you get a quote. To get a price for YOUR job, not a price that allows for all the problems they have on other jobs. The majority of these types of jobs are "cashies" and if, as in my case the customer is supplying the materials it's *all* profit.

  I was under the impression that all that had happened was a phone call and the sparkie quoted a flat "per GPO" rate over the phone? That's not a quote for the specific job, it's a generic rate per unit of output (in this case, GPO's installed). If that's the case then getting a proper quote, which requires a site visit, would be a better option.

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## Terrian

> Ok lets say its $90.00 for 5 minutes work as you suggest. What about the travel costs to get there? The lost time between jobs?

  I, along with millions of others, don't get paid for traveling from my home to my place of work, why do you think a trady should ? 
Oh, and I can't claim the travel as a tax deductible expense either.

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## exotiic

> I, along with millions of others, don't get paid for traveling from my home to my place of work, why do you think a trady should ? 
> Oh, and I can't claim the travel as a tax deductible expense either.

  Are you on an hourly wage or a salary? A contractor has no such thing. They do not get paid whether working from 6 to 7 if they're around travelling from job to job all day performing five or six so called '5 minute jobs'. So under your rules they should get paid a total of $30 for working half an hour at a rate of $60 per hour for the whole day, whilst their clients push and urge for them to all be there at a certain time. Its all so easy when you have the comfort of a salary or fixed hours to call everyone else trying to make a living a criminal for charging to sustain their livlihood.

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## wonderplumb

> That's because the tradesman needs a specialised vehicle. 
> Haven't you noticed that the majority of tradesmans need exspensive 4x4's to get to their workplace.
> Obviously these people are traversing rugged landscapes to get to their building sites requireing 4WD traction, bullbar equipped with fishing rod holders and some I have noticed even need a winch.......

  A lot of tradesmen might be in the same boat as myself, I do a lot of work in country areas and my main hobby takes me into some remote and rugged places...... in saying this I cant afford to run two vehicles so i have a 4WD hilux that serves as a dual purpose vehicle. And its hardly an expensive 4WD either.

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## Grumpy John

> I, along with millions of others, don't get paid for traveling from my home to my place of work, why do you think a trady should ? 
> Oh, and I can't claim the travel as a tax deductible expense either.

  That's because a "tradie" has to travel from job to job, and I have no problem with that. The trouble is when a tradie charges an hour travel time from his workshop to get to your job even though he was working on a site around the corner 5 minutes away.

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## Terrian

> A lot of tradesmen might be in the same boat as myself, I do a lot of work in country areas and my main hobby takes me into some remote and rugged places...... in saying this I cant afford to run two vehicles so i have a 4WD hilux that serves as a dual purpose vehicle. And its hardly an expensive 4WD either.

  So you charge only 1/2 the usual amount  :Smilie:

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## Terrian

> That's because the tradesman needs a specialised vehicle. 
> Haven't you noticed that the majority of tradesmans need exspensive 4x4's to get to their workplace.
> Obviously these people are traversing rugged landscapes to get to their building sites requireing 4WD traction, bullbar equipped with fishing rod holders and some I have noticed even need a winch.......

  Well, year, I can see how a tradie would require fishing rod holders, 4x4 etc, some suburban nature strips might be hard to traverse (don't forget the driving lights!)

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## Terrian

> Are you on an hourly wage or a salary? A contractor has no such thing.

  If thats the case, how can they charge by the hour ?   

> They do not get paid whether working from 6 to 7 if they're around travelling from job to job all day performing five or six so called '5 minute jobs'. So under your rules they should get paid a total of $30 for working half an hour at a rate of $60 per hour for the whole day, .

  Get paid for the work done, if there is 10minutes travel time, 10 min to do the job don't charge min 3 hr rate (there is that hourly rate again).   

> whilst their clients push and urge for them to all be there at a certain 
> time

  you mean something like : 
Me: High, my front tap is leaking, can you come over and fix it?
Plumber: Sure
Me: Great, when can you get here?
Plumber: 8:30am tomorrow
Me: great, (gives address & phone number to plumber) see you then.
Next day, 11:00am plumber turns up
Me: I thought you said you would be here at 8:30am
Plumber: got caught up on another job
Me: why didn't you call?
Plumber: lost your number.   

> Its all so easy when you have the comfort of a salary or fixed hours to call everyone else trying to make a living a criminal for charging to sustain their livlihood.

  who said anything about criminal, the plumber I have been engaging of late charges me for the time he is here & materials (not cost +xx%), why is he is able to do that and not other tradies ?
Or the brickie, charges the going rate per 1,000 bricks plus materials, no travel charges 
(waits for move by watson  :Smilie:

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## blonk

Okay, so everyone on this forum hates sparkies, get over it. I'm sick of reading your whinging. You hate us, so don't employ us, your all so fantastic, do your own work. Stop pissing and moaning about how much of a rip off we all are!

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## Bedford

> Okay, so everyone on this forum hates sparkies,

  Not me, I'm the luckiest bloke around, I have a plumber, sparkie, and concreter that have done great work for me for over 20 years. 
I might only use them bianually but when I call them they say G'day Bedford , where are we going! and if they say they'll be there tuesday, they'll be there, often 200ks from home. 
I couldn't ask for better than that.  :Smilie:

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## elkangorito

A "service fee" is very much a normal thing in most trades. It is usually applicable to all new jobs until the job is completed. 
As an example, if you call me this week & ask me to do a job, I will charge you a service fee (usually a minimum of 1 hour at the hourly rate but it can be higher) & parts. If the job takes less than an hour, the fee still applies. If the job takes more than 1 hour, the total cost of the job will be; the service fee + a per hour rate + parts.
If the job takes more than one visit to complete, the service fee is not included in the succeeding visits - only an hourly rate is applied. 
If you don't like the idea of paying for the extraneous costs of a sparky's business, you may like to pick him up at his place & take him to your place. Don't forget to bring all of his tools, which you will have to load into your vehicle unless you want him to charge you for "tool loading" time. Also, if you damage any of his tools, you will have to pay. 
Once he has completed the job, reverse the above process. 
If you are late (had an urgent call from the missus, got a flat tyre, bad traffic, the kids homework took longer than expected), the sparky may decide not to take your job.
So, how much is your time worth? How much is your vehicle + fuel etc worth? 
Also, I don't believe for one second that any tradesperson arrives at exactly the time required. I have always told people to apply a half hour leeway either side of the expected time of arrival. 
Of course, all tradespeople could simply go on strike and then what would happen? I know! Everybody would DIY but what if tradespeople were not to be found on forums?

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## wonderplumb

> So you charge only 1/2 the usual amount

  Funny

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## Smurf

> I, along with millions of others, don't get paid for traveling from my home to my place of work, why do you think a trady should ?

  Indeed. But you almost certainly get paid at least 7 hours a day which would be near on impossible if a tradie didn't include travelling time and was doing a lot of small jobs. 
Many employees on wages even get paid on slow days. Most businesses don't put staff off just because of one slow day. But that's exactly the situation faced by any contractor - no work right at this minue = no income right now. The rates they charge need to factor this in otherwise they'll go broke. 
As I said before, if contracting was so good then there wouldn't be employee tradies happy to earn $30 or so an hour for 35 - 40 hours a week. They'd all start their own businesses if it was really that profitable - but it's nowhere near as attactive as it seems once you do all the maths.

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## wonderplumb

> However, don't try and sugar coat the truth and treat me like a fool.

  Sugar coating the truth? Hardly. I dont know how it is in QLD with the tradies so ill take your word for it.
I do a lot of hunting and the majority of the places and properties I hunt are not accessible by 2WD vehicles, I have been to the gas refinery at Moomba and you could drive a huyundai excel out there, completely different terrain my friend so relax a little hey?
As for being treated like a fool it works both ways, mate.

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## watson

:Toot:  
Gently Girls Please....the souffle will fall.

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## wonderplumb

Must be a delicate souffle! :Biggrin:

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## watson

True  :Biggrin: 
Its that bloody Buddha statue the Mrs bought

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## Smurf

It it's really so good being a sparkie, then why is it so hard to find anyone wanting to become one? Last time we advertised for an apprentice, we ended up with only 2 decent applicants plus a few others - thankfully one was tops so we employed him.  
But I'd argue that if the electrical trade were really that attractive then surely we'd have had hundreds or thousands of applicants, not a handfull.

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## exotiic

> If thats the case, how can they charge by the hour ? 
> It meant that they are not guaranteed an hourly rate per day for 5, 6 or 7 days a week as you may so well be. Their income depends on The work they are able to do in a day or week and unfortunately they, unlike you are not paid for when they are not working in between getting to jobs.  
> Get paid for the work done, if there is 10minutes travel time, 10 min to do the job don't charge min 3 hr rate (there is that hourly rate again). 
> Who said anything about a minimum 3 hourly rate? Picking numbers out of the sky? 
> you mean something like : 
> Me: High, my front tap is leaking, can you come over and fix it?
> Plumber: Sure
> Me: Great, when can you get here?
> Plumber: 8:30am tomorrow
> ...

  His cost for time and materials covers his time off jobs. Hes not silly enough to charge you cost price for his materials and if you believe he is you are a very naive fellow.  
The brickes cost per 1000 includes the running costs of his company. Its' not that hard. How do you think they come to such a figure? 
You really seem agains anyone but you making a living and charging a fair rate. I am so glad your unable to call on anyone I know for a job, we'd all just laugh and walk off.

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## exotiic

oops i stuffed my above post there! There are answers in between

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## elkangorito

I really don't know what all the fuss is about. 
Tradies have been charging like this for years.

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## Grumpy John

> Okay, so everyone on this forum hates sparkies, get over it. I'm sick of reading your whinging. You hate us, so don't employ us, your all so fantastic, do your own work. Stop pissing and moaning about how much of a rip off we all are!

  You guys bring it on yourselves. You don't turn up when you're supposed to for a quote, and can't be bothered ringing. I've lost a total of 2 days pay in the last 2 weeks waiting for 3 different sparkies to turn up to quote a job that will probably come in at ~$750, and I STILL don't have a quote  :Mad:  :Mad:  :Mad: . This will, of course be a cash job, because if I ask for a tax invoice so I can claim against faulty workmanship (if needed) I'll get charged another %10. Believe me if we could do own work and pay for the certificate only you guys would be bitching and moaning about the lack of work and money you're losing.

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## elkangorito

I've had a total of about 5 clients (out of hundreds) who were complete morons. As a result, I now deem all future clients to be complete morons. 
What kind of person thinks like this?

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## elkangorito

> This will, of course be a cash job, because if I ask for a tax invoice so I can claim against faulty workmanship (if needed) I'll get charged another %10.

  Grumpy,
I think your knowledge of tax is limited.

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## Grumpy John

> I've had a total of about 5 clients (out of hundreds) who were complete morons. As a result, I now deem all future clients to be complete morons. 
> What kind of person thinks like this?

  If this is aimed at me, should I think that all tradies are slack because NONE of the three I phoned to arrange quotes bothered show up, nor could they be bothered phoning. I know things don't go to plan on worksites, I know you can get stuck on the other side of town, but why don't you guys ring. You have a crack at us because we work a 38 hour week and don't need to worry about lack of work or customers who default, and wonder why we get pissed off when we take a day off work so we can be home when you guys don't show up, wake up to yourselves.

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## Grumpy John

> Grumpy,
> I think your knowledge of tax is limited.

  How so? Most tradies knock %11 of for cashies, no invoice, no GST. All in the pocket.

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## elkangorito

I think that most tradies on this forum would agree that if 3 tradesmen have said that they would show up & then didn't, the situation is highly abnormal. 
My next question would be "I wonder why nobody wants to take my job?" 
In any case, the tradesmen are stupid to have promised to show up & then not show up.

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## Terrian

> Okay, so everyone on this forum hates sparkies, get over it.

  nope, not at all, some of us plumbers instead of sparkies  :Smilie:    

> I'm sick of reading your whinging.

  stop reading maybe ?   

> You hate us, so don't employ us, your all so fantastic, do your own work.

  Some do, only to have some sparkie cry & moan about illegal work  :Rofl:    

> Stop pissing and moaning about how much of a rip off we all are!

  1) Stop ripping us off
2) Turn up on time, might make us moan less when we have to shoo the moths out of our wallets

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## elkangorito

> How so? Most tradies knock %11 of for cashies, no invoice, no GST. All in the pocket.

  Here's what you said,  

> This will, of course be a cash job, because if I ask for a tax invoice so I can claim against faulty workmanship (if needed) I'll get charged another %10.

  This is entirely correct.
The tax discount has nothing to do with faulty workmanship. 
So, what do you want...a "legal" & slightly more expensive job or an "illegal" & slightly cheaper job?
Or do you want a cheaper but legal job?

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## Terrian

> If you are late (had an urgent call from the missus, got a flat tyre, bad traffic, the kids homework took longer than expected), the sparky may decide not to take your job.

  Does that mean you are happy to have 1 hr of your your hourly rate deducted from your final bill for every hour you are late arriving on the job (ie: agreed time 8:30, you turn up at 11:00) ?

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## Terrian

> His cost for time and materials covers his time off jobs. Hes not silly enough to charge you cost price for his materials and if you believe he is you are a very naive fellow.

  nope, he has shown me the invoices for the parts he has had to buy   

> The brickes cost per 1000 includes the running costs of his company. Its' not that hard. How do you think they come to such a figure?

  there are no additional fees, he doesn't charge $100 to quote a job, etc.   

> You really seem agains anyone but you making a living and charging a fair rate.

  nope, not at all, but the key word here is 'fair rate'   

> I am so glad your unable to call on anyone I know for a job, we'd all just laugh and walk off.

  And I am sure I would let everyone I know how about your work. 
(edit for missed answers)  

> Who said anything about a minimum 3 hourly rate? Picking numbers out of the sky?

  nope, I had a plumber turn up to quote a job a couple of years ago, min 3hr was part of his conditions.   

> . Leeway is allowed either way of the time frame and if its excessive of course notification is a must!

  If you say you will be there at 8:30, I expect you to be there within 10 to 15 minutes of that time, after all, I am having to take time off from work to accomodate the time *you* said you would be able to turn up, are you going to pay me my lost wages because you were late and didn't bother to call ?   

> A good tradie wouldn't allow a 3 hour leeway without a phone call. Im not defending the slack or the rip off merchants, Im defending those that are charging fair fees for their time and work

  then there are a heck of a lot of bad tradies around.
example, at work they are wanting to extend the upstairs office space (inside a large warehouse), builder 1 is 4 days late turning up so far to quote, builder 2 is 2 days late, builder 3 was 5 hours late.
Electricians, plumbers, concretors, all have been 1/2 day or more late turning up to quote jobs or to start jobs

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## Grumpy John

OK, I'll take a deep breath and calm down. In the past 30+ years I've had many occasions to need tradies (sparkies, plunbers and concreters) and have, on the most part have had no reason to complain. I have always treated tradies with respect and never stood over their shoulder and watched. The only time they would see me was when I offered tea, coffee or even a coldie or two at the end of the job. I have always paid cash immediately the job was completed. However in the past month while trying to organise power to a new shed none of the three sparkies who have promised to quote have bothered to show. Maybe I just happen to have rung the busiest sparkies in Melbourne, or I'm very unlucky, but don't dare put this on me.

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## elkangorito

> 1) Stop ripping us off
> 2) Turn up on time, might make us moan less when we have to shoo the moths out of our wallets

  I think Thailand would be ideal for you; 
1] Being from Australia, you're worth a fortune over here (exchange rate). This means that you can have (but not own) the flashest house in the whole town & still have money to party every night. 
2] Thai "electricians" charge about 300 Bart a day (about AU$10). Tax is included in this rate but parts are not included. They do not charge "service fees", do not issue compliance certificates. 
3] They will turn up "almost" on time...usually within a day. They may suddenly have a crisis (family buffalo got sick) & will disappear for days. They may or may not return. If you're lucky, they will send a "friend" to finish the job. Quite often, the friend has not even seen a wire let alone know what a volt is. 
4] Thai "electricians" perform top quality work (NOT) in a country that has a superb electrical system (it's complete crap).

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## elkangorito

Excuse my modifications.   

> Excellent replies, Terrian 
> You've gotta wonder about the mentality of some people who whinge and complain about [reading posts] tradesmen which they don't agree with...............ignore the [post/ thread/ member] tradesmen..............all seems so simple.

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## exotiic

> nope, he has shown me the invoices for the parts he has had to buy

  He has to be the first seller/professional that I have heard of willing to sell his parts at cost price    

> there are no additional fees, he doesn't charge $100 to quote a job, etc.

  That fee per bricks includes his outgoings. Who said anything about charging $100 for a quote?   

> nope, not at all, but the key word here is 'fair rate'.

  What is a fair rate? Something that suits you so you can live in comfort but disallows any tradie to? Do you by any chance feel that you deserve more in life than they do? Why are you allowed to demand what you want to be paid when seeking your employment but your tradie to come and travel to your house not? TBH in many cases, I am sick of turning up to customers who think they are so much better because they get to sit in an office whilst im in their room sweating myself out and coming out filthy from the rubbish in their home. And they have the nerve to have a cold drink in front of me without offering one whilst im sweating looking like a pig.     

> nope, I had a plumber turn up to quote a job a couple of years ago, min 3hr was part of his conditions.

  Well then he was definitely one to avoid, no one here is defending that   

> If you say you will be there at 8:30, I expect you to be there within 10 to 15 minutes of that time, after all, I am having to take time off from work to accomodate the time *you* said you would be able to turn up, are you going to pay me my lost wages because you were late and didn't bother to call ?

  When I make an appointment I specify that I allow 30 minutes each way because most of the time, traffic or an earlier job can provide a couple of minutes delay. If I am over that 30 minutes I will ofcourse call and notify of such a problem and if possible try and make sure it is still ok with my customer. What about the cases where I am on time and the customer is 30 minutes to an hour late to meet me at their own place and I am stuck their because they didnt care to call? Its easy to criticse when its only one sided isnt it?

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## Terrian

> He has to be the first seller/professional that I have heard of willing to sell his parts at cost price

  not at all.     

> That fee per bricks includes his outgoings.

  wrong by a long shot, competition is what dictates his prices, for quite a while there brikes were making less per 1,000 than they were 10 years earlier.   

> Who said anything about charging $100 for a quote?

  me, for starters, we had Taylors plumbing turn up to quote for a hot was service repair, they were not interested in repairing, only wanted to replace, told us it would be about $800 to repair, then gave us an invoice for $100 for the quote, we didn't pay, they said nothing about a quote charge when we rang them. Never heard anything more from them. The plumber I now use charged $285 for the job, total, charged us labour & parts, showed us the invoices for the parts.   

> What is a fair rate? Something that suits you so you can live in comfort but disallows any tradie to?

  3 tradies quote for the same job, one quotes $800, one quotes $450, the third quotes $400, I would say between $400 - $500 would be a fair price for the job, would you say $800 was fair? 
We had a quote to run power to the garage, next door is a 3rd or 4th year apprentice, his boss told him to quote the job, and do the job, no supervision. about 25m of cable (6mm2?) needed to be supplied, very easy access under the house, 1m deep trench already dug, all needed fitting for lights, power points, fuse box all there to be used, conduit ready to be used, couple of hours max to do the job, $700 cash in hand quote. Do you think thats a fair rate ? I don't.
For the time being I have a 15amp extension lead plugged into a 15amp power point supplying power to the garage (power point was for an air cond that has been removed)   

> Do you by any chance feel that you deserve more in life than they do?

  Question goes both ways.
But no, I don't, I do have to wonder how you can charge, say, $50 traveling expense for a 5 minute drive though.   

> Why are you allowed to demand what you want to be paid when seeking your employment but your tradie to come and travel to your house not?

  What makes you think I could demand to be paid for a job?
If the going rate for the line of work I do is $35ph, what makes you think I could demand $50ph and get the job?   

> TBH in many cases, I am sick of turning up to customers who think they are so much better because they get to sit in an office whilst im in their room sweating myself out and coming out filthy from the rubbish in their home.

  is that chip cedar or redgum ?   

> And they have the nerve to have a cold drink in front of me without offering one whilst im sweating looking like a pig.

  You going to give a discount?
I quite often get offered a cold drink on hot days, I always say thanks, but decline, I have cold drinks with me on hot days.   

> Well then he was definitely one to avoid, no one here is defending that

  We chose not to use his services.
It is also the reason why when I have needed the services of a bobcat I have hired the machine and done the work myself (yes, I am licensed), min x hours is typical   

> When I make an appointment I specify that I allow 30 minutes each way because most of the time, traffic or an earlier job can provide a couple of minutes delay. If I am over that 30 minutes I will ofcourse call and notify of such a problem and if possible try and make sure it is still ok with my customer.

  And that is exactly the way it should be   

> What about the cases where I am on time and the customer is 30 minutes to an hour late to meet me at their own place and I am stuck their because they didnt care to call?

  30 minutes is your leeway, has to go both ways.
1hr of your time, add it to the bill.   

> Its easy to criticse when its only one sided isnt it?

  Damn easy, I never invite some one to my home if there is not going to be a person there to greet the invited person

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## elkangorito

This bickering about electricians rates is also a problem in Thailand. 
Many foreigners here in Thailand, complain about the generally abysmal standard of electrical work & quite rightly so. They then expect free & highly detailed advice via a forum so they can DIY or they can direct a Thai electrician to do the job properly.
When they meet another foreigner who is a qualified electrician & who charges 500 Bart per hour (about AU$17.50), they complain like crazy.
Most of the foreigners here are far from poor. 
The Thai rate is about 300 - 500 Bart per day. It appears that foreigners here want a western quality job at a Thai rate.
Tight arses.

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## elkangorito

I just found some interesting info on the NECA website. http://www.neca.asn.au/index.php?opt...tpage&Itemid=1 
This link is for "BUSINESS SKILLS. How to Improve Your Management Capacity", which is this document; http://www.neca.asn.au/filelibrary/V...ogram_2006.pdf 
Below is an excerpt from this document: 
The only reason for going into a business is to make a profit and you cannot make a profit unless you consider all expenses. However, once your business is up and running, you will have established your monthly operating costs and this is the first  starting point in establishing a charge-out rate. 
Assuming prior to starting business you were employed as an electrician on wages. If you intend working for yourself, you would expect at least a 20% increase on your wages as a nominal profit. Therefore based on the electricians weekly EBA wage rate as at July 2006 of $1089.00 (and they work a 36 hour week) the formula should look like this:  *Electricians loaded rate Per Week Per Annum (pa).* 
(a) Wage rate $1,089.00 pw. $56,628.00 pa.
(b) Fares $17.55/day (197 days). $3,457.35 pa.
(c) Travel $5.05 /day (223 days). $1,126.15 pa
(d) Annual leave loading ($1089.00 x 4 x 17.5%). $762.30 pa.
(e) Long-service leave (2%). $1132.56 pa.
(f) Superannuation (9%). $5,197.87 pa.
(g) Workers compensation (3.65%). $2,451.77 pa.
(h) Payroll tax (5.15%). $3,459.34 pa.
(i) Severance $65.00. $3,380.00 pa.
(j) Income protection $19.70. $1,024.40 pa. 
Total loaded rate $78,619.74 pa.    *Calculating charge-out rate.* 
Electricians loaded rate (from above) - $78,620.00.
Assume a nominal profit of 20% - $15,724.00
Total Gross Return incl. nominal profit - $94,344.00 
Cost of operating business per annum (motor vehicle, telephone, insurance, office costs, depreciation, rent, tool replacement etc.) Your accountant can establish this figure, however an average small contracting business is approximately $25,000.00. 
Total charge-out rate per annum $119,344.00.    *Working hours per annum.* 
Nominal (52 x 38hrs) = 1,976
Less:
Annual leave = 152
Public holidays = 80
Sick leave = 64
Picnic day = 8
Morning tea = 35
Four additional days off = 30
Total 1,607 hours. 
Note this figure is the available hours. More realistically the hours should be based on the number of CHARGEABLE hours per week (because this is all you will be paid for). Your chargeable hours (irrespective of how many hours you actually work) must be the basis for your charge out rate.
If you believe you can maintain 34 CHARGEABLE hours per week, for 48 weeks of the year AND pay all your overheads, you must maintain a charge out rate based on this formula: 
Total working hours 1,607 (based on a 38hr week)
Less four hours per week (48 weeks x 4) = 192
Total chargeable hours = 1,415
Therefore you only have 1415 working hours per year to make your wages and pay your overheads. 
Divide the total charge out rate per annum by total working hours:
$119,344.00 / 1,415hrs = *$84.00 per hour.*
Therefore if you are to receive wages at par (the electricians loaded rate that you were earning when working for wages) and make a nominal profit on your labour AND you can maintain 34 CHARGEABLE hours per week, for 48 weeks per year AND pay your
overheads, you must maintain a charge-out cost of:
$ 84.00 per hour. 
NOTE: The figures are based on the EBA electricians loaded rate and make no allowance for leading hand or foreman rates. Nor do these figures include site or any other special allowances. Furthermore, if you cannot maintain 1415 chargeable hours per year, you will need to increase your hourly rate just to maintain your annual salary.
These figure are based on small contracting companies, obviously larger contracting companies will have their own financial analysis for charge-out rates and would be delighted if they could achieve a rate of 34 productive hours per man per week for 48 weeks per year.
Payroll tax is not relevant unless your annual payroll exceeds $550,000. The workers compensation calculation is an estimate only.
The most important thing is that you calculate your charge out rate so as to cover your operating costs AND to make a profit.  
Otherwise you are just buying yourself a job  and not a very good one at that if you are not earning more than your mates who are still working for an employer. 
Another document of interest; http://www.neca.asn.au/filelibrary/A...out_report.pdf

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## blonk

> stop reading maybe ?

  So many complain about the lack of real help from any electricians, yet virtually every electrical thread degrades into "I hate sparkies, they never show up, charge too much, do crap work, I can do it myslef, why won't they let me" blah blah blah, sooky sooky la la! :Bigcry:  There must be an engineer on this forum that can direct us all to a site that has the basics of bridge building on it. OH NO wait! can I do it, do I need a licence, is it safe for DIY! NO, what have I started!!   :Ohcrap:

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## Grumpy John

> I think that most tradies on this forum would agree that if 3 tradesmen have said that they would show up & then didn't, the situation is highly abnormal. Most tradies may think that, the public don't
> My next question would be "I wonder why nobody wants to take my job?" Totally irrelevant as they haven't even bothered to show up to knock it back
> In any case, the tradesmen are stupid to have promised to show up & then not show up. Exactly

  .

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## elkangorito

Well, it looks like the "hourly rate" problem has been solved. 
Now, it's just a matter of the "showing up" problem...but this has been discussed ad infinitum before.

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## wonderplumb

> Perhaps you do need a 4WD on your little hunting trips.............but there is certainly no need for any surburban tradesman to have a 4WD...............and you will never convince me otherwise

  So what is your point?
Obviously what you think is the only way it should be........
So you have been around the country, big deal I havent seen it all but ive seen more than most my age.
I do need a 4WD on my "little hunting trips"  so what is the problem with owning one for work and having it as a dual purpose vehicle?
Get over yourself mate you asked not to be treated like a fool and I said it works both ways, you obviously are incapable of looking past what you believe is right.

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## Vernonv

I'm of the opinion that any business (tradie, newsagent, telecommunications provider, whatever) that consistently does not provide good customer service (basically doing what you say you will do) shouldn't be in business - but unfortunately lots knowingly let customers down and are still in business. There are no excuses for consistently disappointing customers. 
As for what a tradie charges ... who cares ... if you don't like the price you have been quoted, go somewhere else ... why argue about it?

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## nww1969

Wholly posts... Batman. :Yikes2:

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## roba

> I just found some interesting info on the NECA website. http://www.neca.asn.au/index.php?opt...tpage&Itemid=1 
> This link is for "BUSINESS SKILLS. How to Improve Your Management Capacity", which is this document; http://www.neca.asn.au/filelibrary/V...ogram_2006.pdf

  This document is from an association that represents electricians. So lets start off by saying it is naturally biased towards them.   

> Below is an excerpt from this document: 
> The only reason for going into a business is to make a profit and you cannot make a profit unless you consider all expenses. However, once your business is up and running, you will have established your monthly operating costs and this is the first starting point in establishing a charge-out rate. 
> Assuming prior to starting business you were employed as an electrician on wages. If you intend working for yourself, you would expect at least a 20% increase on your wages as a nominal profit. Therefore based on the electricians weekly EBA wage rate as at July 2006 of $1089.00 (and they work a 36 hour week) the formula should look like this:  *Electricians loaded rate Per Week Per Annum (pa).* 
> (a) Wage rate $1,089.00 pw. $56,628.00 pa.

  No dramas here.  

> (b) Fares $17.55/day (197 days). $3,457.35 pa.

  Not sure what they are referring to here.  I assume it is part of the transport?  

> (c) Travel $5.05 /day (223 days). $1,126.15 pa

  Seems too low to me.  

> (d) Annual leave loading ($1089.00 x 4 x 17.5%). $762.30 pa.

  This one is absolute crap.  Nobody gets leave loading any longer.  And if they do, they shouldn't.  

> (e) Long-service leave (2%). $1132.56 pa.

  Another one which isn't relevant. So you work for yourself AND you pay yourself long service leave? I've worked 15 years now, never stayed in a job long enough to get it.  

> (f) Superannuation (9%). $5,197.87 pa.

  Debatable, but probably should be there.  However sole traders don't need to pay themselves supeannuation.  

> (g) Workers compensation (3.65%). $2,451.77 pa.

  Fair enough.  

> (h) Payroll tax (5.15%). $3,459.34 pa.

  In NSW as a sole trader I don't pay any tax (above my income tax). There is only tax if you have more than 10 employees (if I remember correctly). So for the sole electrician, not relevant.  

> (i) Severance $65.00. $3,380.00 pa.

  ???? Severance?  What the hell is this?  

> (j) Income protection $19.70. $1,024.40 pa.

  Like any job, an optional extra.  

> *Calculating charge-out rate.* 
> Electricians loaded rate (from above) - $78,620.00.
> Assume a nominal profit of 20% - $15,724.00

  This one is debatable.  If you work for yourself (like a lot of electricians do), then the salary IS the profit.     

> Total Gross Return incl. nominal profit - $94,344.00 
> Cost of operating business per annum (motor vehicle, telephone, insurance, office costs, depreciation, rent, tool replacement etc.) Your accountant can establish this figure, however an average small contracting business is approximately $25,000.00.

  Too high.  I'm a sole trader, and work from home (much like most electricians do).  No rent.  Minimal office costs.  Sure, there is the vehicle, and tool replacement, but I can't see that being $25,000 per year.  

> Total charge-out rate per annum $119,344.00.  *Working hours per annum.* 
> Nominal (52 x 38hrs) = 1,976
> Less:
> Annual leave = 152
> Public holidays = 80
> Sick leave = 64
> Picnic day = 8

  Picnic day?  Wow.  I wish I got this.  

> Morning tea = 35

  Of course!  A week in total off for morning tea!  

> Four additional days off = 30

  Only four additional days off (for what?)?  Why?  Lets make it 20!  

> Total 1,607 hours. 
> Note this figure is the available hours. More realistically the hours should be based on the number of CHARGEABLE hours per week (because this is all you will be paid for). Your chargeable hours (irrespective of how many hours you actually work) must be the basis for your charge out rate.
> If you believe you can maintain 34 CHARGEABLE hours per week, for 48 weeks of the year AND pay all your overheads, you must maintain a charge out rate based on this formula: 
> Total working hours 1,607 (based on a 38hr week)
> Less four hours per week (48 weeks x 4) = 192

  Wait just a sec...who is working 48 weeks? Sure, this may take into account not working when on annual leave, but what happened to the two weeks off for sick leave, 2 weeks off for public holidays, four days off additional leave, and lets not forget picnic day! 
The real calculation should be: 
1607 working hours is 42 weeks (1607 divided by 38).  42x4 = 168 hours. 
I can't believe this document got published.  It is incredibly flawed. 
I'm not criticising sparkys here, just the logic behind the calculation of $84 per hour.

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## Grumpy John

Had another go at trying to get a quote today, and had 3 guys show up within 40 minutes of hanging up the phone  :2thumbsup: , looking good so far. Quote came to $1000, which included 32 amp breaker at the meter, running ~30mtr x 6mm cable, supply and fit switch board, fit 1 x 15 amp dbl GPO, 6 x 10 amp dbl GPO and fit 2 flouro's.
8 hours @ $95/hr for 2 men.
I have arranged for another quote tomorrow, says he'll be there at ~2:30. We'll see how that one goes.

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## wonderplumb

> My point is. you posted this statement, so I countered it by posting pictures of the country that you believe a Hyundai Excel could drive over. 
> Besides, I love posting pictures of my old trucks. 
> You have also neglected to answer my question, which was, "perhaps you can let us all know how many times you engage the 4X4 during your regular work day?"  
> Your argument thus far is substanially weak..............you still have not convinced me that a surburban tradesman requires a 4WD............would you care to answer the question?  
> Perhaps you could give me some addresses of customers properties where you required 4WD and I will google them and post the pictures for you.

  Did you not read my original post on this particular subject?  :Doh: 
I am not arguing that an everyday tradesman needs a 4WD, I said I can not afford to run two cars with two rego's and two lots of insurances, therefore I have a 4WD ute that doubles as a work and recreational vehicle thus saving me the extra rego and insurance, got it? 
And yes twice I have had to engage 4WD on a job out in the sticks which saved me a 100m walk through the mud, BUT the main reason I have a 4WD is, as I have stated twice now, that it doubles as a recreational vehicle.
As for "countering" my statement that an excel could drive out to the gas refinery at moomba how do I know when and where those photos were taken?  Obviously a long long time before I went out there, thats if they were taken at moomba. 
Read the previous posts mate before you go sounding off trying to look clever.
I AM NOT ARGUING THAT AN EVERYDAY SUBURBAN TRADESMAN NEEDS A 4WD. Can i make it any simpler for you?

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## Grumpy John

> Did you not read my original post on this particular subject? 
> I am not arguing that an everyday tradesman needs a 4WD, I said I can not afford to run two cars with two rego's and two lots of insurances, therefore I have a 4WD ute that doubles as a work and recreational vehicle thus saving me the extra rego and insurance, got it? 
> And yes twice I have had to engage 4WD on a job out in the sticks which saved me a 100m walk through the mud, BUT the main reason I have a 4WD is, as I have stated twice now, that it doubles as a recreational vehicle.
> As for "countering" my statement that an excel could drive out to the gas refinery at moomba how do I know when and where those photos were taken? Obviously a long long time before I went out there, thats if they were taken at moomba. 
> Read the previous posts mate before you go sounding off trying to look clever.
> I AM NOT ARGUING THAT AN EVERYDAY SUBURBAN TRADESMAN NEEDS A 4WD. Can i make it any simpler for you?

   

> Yes I did, your point of reference being?................ you said  *Awesome, its the sparkies turn to argue with the folk who think they are being hard done by courtesy of the sleazy tradesman!*  
> Which part would you like me to re-read..............   
> Oh, I'm sorry, when you said:   *A lot of tradesmen might be in the same boat as myself, I do a lot of work in country areas*   I thought that you might have a basis for this conclusion, obviously I'm mistaken.   
> Yes, I understand, you use your 4X4 when out on your little hunting trips........BIG DEAL. 
> So what your trying to say is that this entitles you to claim the added exspense on your tax for maintaining a vehicle that is really not required for the business purpose in which you are claiming for. .......This is my point.............  
> You don't.............no, it's not Moomba, you've got me, I set the whole thing up in my sandbox.   
> Classic stuff..............and this coming from the same person who refers me to this post  *Awesome, its the sparkies turn to argue with the folk who think they are being hard done by courtesy of the sleazy tradesman!*  What a statement....................................    
> Yes, would you mind colour coding the important stuff? 
> For your added enjoyment here is another pic from the sandbox of the W Model positioning the derrick.

  
My god, you guys have got such a tight grip on yourselves that your cutting of the blood supply to your brains.

----------


## Calm

Lets get back to the hourly rate instead of a pi$$$ing contest on which car i need to drive to work. 
If what you pay for this job is a "cashy" and it is all labour then if you were going to declare it then your annual income would rise by (the only quote we have for the job) $1000 your good accountant will manage to keep your taxable income down in the 30 cent bracket so that is a $300 tax saving you could also split this with GJ so as well as saving GST you are paying less tax - how come GJ isnt entitled to half that as a discount. so instead of $1000 + GST $100 = $1100  why isnt it $1000 - TAX $150 = $850 :Confused:  :Confused:  
As for turning up our society has accepted this crap from not only tradesmen but anyone who feels they can just say i'll ring you with no intention of ever doing so.  Dont do it to me - i will tell every one i know of the type of person you are and the type of work you do - until more people do this tradies will continue to get away with it.  I would rather pay more than put up with lies from anyone. :No:  :No:  :No:  
Thought i better show you a photo that i like as well - totally irrelevant to the thread but i like it. 
Cheers

----------


## Bros

> If what you pay for this job is a "cashy" and it is all labour then if you were going to declare it then your annual income would rise by (the only quote we have for the job) $1000 your good accountant will manage to keep your taxable income down in the 30 cent bracket so that is a $300 tax saving you could also split this with GJ so as well as saving GST you are paying less tax - how come GJ isnt entitled to half that as a discount. so instead of $1000 + GST $100 = $1100  why isnt it $1000 - TAX $150 = $850

  You're making an assumption that the "cashy" is being done to avoid paying tax something that is illegal. The "cashy" could be payment on the spot in folding stuff instead of by account, it is then up to the tradie how he manages his affairs, you can't just assume he won't be declaring the income.

----------


## Grumpy John

> You're making an assumption that the "cashy" is being done to avoid paying tax something that is illegal. The "cashy" could be payment on the spot in folding stuff instead of by account, it is then up to the tradie how he manages his affairs, you can't just assume he won't be declaring the income.

   :Roflmao:  :Clap:  :Laughing1:  :Rofl:

----------


## Calm

> You're making an assumption that the "cashy" is being done to avoid paying tax something that is illegal. The "cashy" could be payment on the spot in folding stuff instead of by account, it is then up to the tradie how he manages his affairs, you can't just assume he won't be declaring the income.

  ARE YOU FOR REAL??  :Confused:  :Confused:  :Confused:   going to declare it :Doh:  :Doh:

----------


## Terrian

> I Furthermore, if you cannot maintain 1415 chargeable hours per year, you will need to increase your hourly rate just to maintain your annual salary.

  if you cannot maintain 1415 chargeable hours you probably want to find out why, maybe word has gotten around about you poor quality of work, maybe you are charging more than others for the same work, maybe increasing your rate further will lead to *less* chargeable hours.

----------


## Terrian

> I'm not criticising sparkys here, just the logic behind the calculation of $84 per hour.

  the logic behind this is simple, if you can't blind 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with @@@@@@@@.

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## Terrian

> 8 hours @ $95/hr for 2 men.

  obviously fake, hourly rate should be $84 per man (g.d.r)

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## watson

What makes me a bit suss about that quote is there's no beer allowance.

----------


## Terrian

> You're making an assumption that the "cashy" is being done to avoid paying tax something that is illegal. The "cashy" could be payment on the spot in folding stuff instead of by account, it is then up to the tradie how he manages his affairs, you can't just assume he won't be declaring the income.

  when the tradie says he'll do the job for $1,000, or $800 cash, you can be pretty safe in assuming he is not going to declare the cash quote  :Smilie:

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## Grumpy John

> obviously fake, hourly rate should be $84 per man (g.d.r)

  I'm guessing that there should be a smilie in there somewhere. (g.d.r) in Pauline speak, please explain

----------


## Smurf

> Perhaps you do need a 4WD on your little hunting trips.............but there is certainly no need for any surburban tradesman to have a 4WD...............and you will never convince me otherwise

  Only last week we nearly ended up with the 4WD bogged when driving through mud. I'm no driving expert, but when you're driving through mud on a fairly steep bank the 4WD does a lot better than the 2WD. Independent expert suggested a 4WD for OH&S reasons and that's why we got one - and I'd say he knew his stuff.

----------


## Bros

> when the tradie says he'll do the job for $1,000, or $800 cash, you can be pretty safe in assuming he is not going to declare the cash quote

  Put yourself in the tradies position a one man show depending on payment ASAP to pay suppliers. You look at a job decide it is worth $800 so you tell the customer it is $1000 and for cash you will do it for $800. This has a dual effect in that the customer thinks he is getting a bargain and asks him to do the job as it is a good discount and doesn't bother with any more quotes and the tradie is happy as he gets paid immediately and doesn't have to chase his payment. There are many customers who's pockets get longer and the arms get shorter after a job is done and they are enjoying the benefits and decide not to pay until threatened with action of some kind.

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## elkangorito

I think that too many hairs are being split in this thread. 
The only real problem seems to be about "showing up". If a tradesman doesn't show up when he has promised, the client then goes into an incipient spin & starts to cast all manner of dispersions upon the tradesman...starting with "hourly rates". 
In my opinion, an hourly rate of between $80 & $100 is acceptable (& is quite normal). 
Also in my opinion, a tradesman who says that he will "show up" but does not, deserves to be shamed. 
The only way that contractors will be reliable & charge fairly is if people start complaining to somebody. I suggest this "somebody" to be NECA (for starters). Don't take out your frustrations on us sparkies here. We understand your frustrations otherwise we wouldn't be here to give "free" advice. 
Please be nice. We are here because we enjoy helping others.  :Biggrin:

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## watson

Ok.
I reckon at the end of it, these are the relevant points:
A tradie......leccy or not...is entitled to charge the rate he sees fit, that will get his/her  Kids through school in the same manner and style of those of his customers. ( Tradies are entitled to a life)
He/She is entitled to have a 4WD work vehicle.
He/She having made an appointment should keep it or notify the customer accordingly. ( Really common sense) 
I reckon that pretty well sums it up. 
Comments???

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## ScottH

One quick reply regarding that neca document - in the award and EBA covering sparkies, travel allowance, fares allowance, severance pay, 17 percent loading... it's all there.
Some differences obviously, between the award and EBA - but the neca document itself states that it is basing those figures on employees covered by an EBA. 
So the document isn't quite as airy-fairy as some think.

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## Terrian

> Only last week we nearly ended up with the 4WD bogged when driving through mud. I'm no driving expert, but when you're driving through mud on a fairly steep bank the 4WD does a lot better than the 2WD. Independent expert suggested a 4WD for OH&S reasons and that's why we got one - and I'd say he knew his stuff.

  did this Independent expert also tell you that a 4x4 is more likely to flip over in an accident ?

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## elkangorito

My comments in blue.   

> Ok.
> I reckon at the end of it, these are the relevant points:
> A tradie......leccy or not...is entitled to charge the rate he sees fit, that will get his Kids through school in the same manner and style of those of his customers. ( Tradies are entitled to a life)
> He/She is entitled to have a 4WD work vehicle.
> He/She having made an appointment should keep it or notify the customer accordingly. ( Really common sense) 
> I reckon that pretty well sums it up. 
> Comments???

  I think you've got it pretty well spot on Watson  :2thumbsup:    

> One quick reply regarding that neca document - in the award and EBA covering sparkies, travel allowance, fares allowance, severance pay, 17 percent loading... it's all there.
> Some differences obviously, between the award and EBA - but the neca document itself states that it is basing those figures on employees covered by an EBA. 
> So the document isn't quite as airy-fairy as some think.

  Quite right Scott. The document was attempting to be as realsitic as possible, although it either covered too many bases or not enough bases.
At the end of the day, the goal of the document was to provide a prospective small business-person a means to calculate their overheads etc. It is ashame that certain respondents didn't bother to read the "intent" of the document before they put their foot in their mouth.

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## Terrian

> Put yourself in the tradies position a one man show depending on payment ASAP to pay suppliers. You look at a job decide it is worth $800 so you tell the customer it is $1000 and for cash you will do it for $800. This has a dual effect in that the customer thinks he is getting a bargain and asks him to do the job as it is a good discount and doesn't bother with any more quotes and the tradie is happy as he gets paid immediately and doesn't have to chase his payment.

  As I said, you can be pretty safe in assuming he is not going to declare the cash quote, I didn't say that was good or bad. personally, we have always given the (few) tradies we have used the option of cash or cheque when the job has been completed, so far all have been happy to take a cheque.   

> There are many customers who's pockets get longer and the arms get shorter after a job is done and they are enjoying the benefits and decide not to pay until threatened with action of some kind.

  few and far between, but I have no doubt there are some like that (from stories I have heard, it would seem that the more well off a person is, the harder it is to ge them to pay their dues)

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## elkangorito

This is going nowhere. 
Watson, please end this. We can "have this out" in the "debate" area.

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## Terrian

> Ok.
> I reckon at the end of it, these are the relevant points:
> A tradie......leccy or not...is entitled to charge the rate he sees fit, that will get his/her  Kids through school in the same manner and style of those of his customers. ( Tradies are entitled to a life)

  my kids go t a public school  :Smilie:    

> He/She is entitled to have a 4WD work vehicle

  any vehicle they want, no matter how inappropriate it may be (just a shame it is a tax deduction)   

> He/She having made an appointment should keep it or notify the customer accordingly. ( Really common sense)

  and the customer should be there.   

> I reckon that pretty well sums it up.

  just about   

> Comments???

  go away, your ruining a perfectly good 'beat 'em up' session with your logic (looks for lock on thread...)

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## elkangorito

Maybe not lock...but at least move to the debate area.
From the "who's online" link, not many people are interested in debates (apart from members).

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## watson

:Rotfl:  
I won't close or lock the thread yet........the original poster is asleep. Lucky bugger.(politeness decrees)
I can send it into the debate area though........'cos I think its a relevant point to discuss.  :Boxing:

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## elkangorito

> I won't close or lock the thread yet........the original poster is asleep. Lucky bugger.(politeness decrees)
> I can send it into the debate area though........'cos I think its a relevant point to discuss.

  I'm for the "debate area". Look out Terrian  :Smilie:

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## elkangorito

For Roba. My comments in blue. Your comments in red.  Assuming prior to starting business you were employed as an electrician on wages. If you intend working for yourself, you would expect at least a 20% increase on your wages as a nominal profit. Therefore based on the electricians weekly EBA wage rate as at July 2006 of $1089.00 (and they work a 36 hour week) the formula should look like this: 
Electricians loaded rate Per Week Per Annum (pa). 
(a) Wage rate $1,089.00 pw. $56,628.00 pa. No dramas here. Good. 
(b) Fares $17.55/day (197 days). $3,457.35 pa. Not sure what they are referring to here. I assume it is part of the transport? You obviously don't know much about the "trades" & the government trade agreements. 
(c) Travel $5.05 /day (223 days). $1,126.15 pa Seems too low to me. It's not too low. It is what has been agreed to. 
(d) Annual leave loading ($1089.00 x 4 x 17.5%). $762.30 pa. This one is absolute crap. Nobody gets leave loading any longer. And if they do, they shouldn't. Again, you know nothing about government "tradeswork" agreements. 
(e) Long-service leave (2%). $1132.56 pa.
Another one which isn't relevant. So you work for yourself AND you pay yourself long service leave? I've worked 15 years now, never stayed in a job long enough to get it. Do you want long service leave or not? Are you entitled to it? 
(f) Superannuation (9%). $5,197.87 pa. Debatable, but probably should be there. However sole traders don't need to pay themselves supeannuation. Unfortunately, you do need to pay for superannuation (legal requirement). 
(g) Workers compensation (3.65%). $2,451.77 pa. Fair enough. 
(h) Payroll tax (5.15%). $3,459.34 pa. In NSW as a sole trader I don't pay any tax (above my income tax). There is only tax if you have more than 10 employees (if I remember correctly). So for the sole electrician, not relevant. If you had bothered to read the document, it stated that payroll tax is not applicable if the annual business income is less than $500,000.00 a year. 
(i) Severance $65.00. $3,380.00 pa. ???? Severance? What the hell is this? Something obviously, which you know nothing about. 
(j) Income protection $19.70. $1,024.40 pa. Like any job, an optional extra. Really?  
Calculating charge-out rate. 
Electricians loaded rate (from above) - $78,620.00.
Assume a nominal profit of 20% - $15,724.00 This one is debatable. If you work for yourself (like a lot of electricians do), then the salary IS the profit. You are definitely not an accountant. Nor do you understand the difference between salary & profit.   
Total Gross Return incl. nominal profit - $94,344.00 
Cost of operating business per annum (motor vehicle, telephone, insurance, office costs, depreciation, rent, tool replacement etc.) Your accountant can establish this figure, however an average small contracting business is approximately $25,000.00. Too high. I'm a sole trader, and work from home (much like most electricians do). No rent. Minimal office costs. Sure, there is the vehicle, and tool replacement, but I can't see that being $25,000 per year. Again, this document uses this figure as an "average" guesstimate. Of course, it will vary from business to business. Only your accountant can help you with this.   
Total charge-out rate per annum $119,344.00. 
Working hours per annum. 
Nominal (52 x 38hrs) = 1,976
Less:
Annual leave = 152
Public holidays = 80
Sick leave = 64
Picnic day = 8 Picnic day? Wow. I wish I got this. Keep wishing. You are obviously not a tradesman nor do you know anything about trades work. 
Morning tea = 35 Of course! A week in total off for morning tea! Morning tea is 10 minutes per day...customary (& legal) for over 100 years in Australia...if you are a "tradesman" (which you are not). 
Four additional days off = 30 Only four additional days off (for what?)? Why? Lets make it 20! You are a buffoon. 
Total 1,607 hours. 
Note this figure is the available hours. More realistically the hours should be based on the number of CHARGEABLE hours per week (because this is all you will be paid for). Your chargeable hours (irrespective of how many hours you actually work) must be the basis for your charge out rate.
If you believe you can maintain 34 CHARGEABLE hours per week, for 48 weeks of the year AND pay all your overheads, you must maintain a charge out rate based on this formula: 
Total working hours 1,607 (based on a 38hr week)
Less four hours per week (48 weeks x 4) = 192 Wait just a sec...who is working 48 weeks? Sure, this may take into account not working when on annual leave, but what happened to the two weeks off for sick leave, 2 weeks off for public holidays, four days off additional leave, and lets not forget picnic day! Correct. It should be 42 weeks (as you say below), which would mean an increase in the hourly rate. 
The real calculation should be: 
1607 working hours is 42 weeks (1607 divided by 38). 42x4 = 168 hours. 
I can't believe this document got published. It is incredibly flawed.  Let's not get too carried away with ourselves. It's not "incredibly" flawed...somebody obviously made an error. 
I'm not criticising sparkys here, just the logic behind the calculation of $84 per hour.

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## elkangorito

For Terrian. 
My comments in blue, Watson's comments in black, your comments in red. 
Originally Posted by watson.
Ok.
I reckon at the end of it, these are the relevant points:
A tradie......leccy or not...is entitled to charge the rate he sees fit, that will get his/her Kids through school in the same manner and style of those of his customers. (Tradies are entitled to a life) my kids go to a public school. Since when are public schools "free of charge"?  
He/She is entitled to have a 4WD work vehicle any vehicle they want, no matter how inappropriate it may be (just a shame it is a tax deduction) Have you got a mercedes benz when you could have a ford lazer? Let's face it, if all you are carrying is paperwork & people, a mercedes benz is not required. And what about all the "office" workers who claim tax on their "private" vehicles?  
He/She having made an appointment should keep it or notify the customer accordingly. ( Really common sense) and the customer should be there. Absolutely!  
I reckon that pretty well sums it up. just about Well, almost. If you want help from people, be careful upon whom you shyte.

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## Grumpy John

> I got a phone quote from a sparkie today to put power points into my new shed. $90 per powerpoint , is this the going rate, or am I being got.
> I may as well get one double powerpoint fitted and buy two of these. They're only ~$50 and you get 4 surge and overload protected double powerpoints.

   

> Had another go at trying to get a quote today, and had 3 guys show up within 40 minutes of hanging up the phone , looking good so far. Quote came to $1000, which included 32 amp breaker at the meter, running ~30mtr x 6mm cable, supply and fit switch board, fit 1 x 15 amp dbl GPO, 6 x 10 amp dbl GPO and fit 2 flouro's.
> 8 hours @ $95/hr for 2 men.
> I have arranged for another quote tomorrow, says he'll be there at ~2:30. We'll see how that one goes.

  OK let's get back to the original question (which on hindsight was not very well phrased). I accept that $90 for a single GPO is a fair price on a one off situation. The only quote I have yet received is for $90/hr. This is with 2 men doing the job, the guy giving the quote didn't say they were both licensed electricians so I would expect one of them would be a T/A or apprentice.   I would think that in the context of installing GPO's in a bare shed that a competent sparkie (on his own) would be capable of fitting 2 GPO's/hr. At $90/GPO that equates to $180/hr. Please correct me if I'm wrong 
The original question still has not been answered. Was the $90/GPO a bit steep (in the context of multiple GPO's in a bare shed), or is my reasoning flawed somewhere? 
Attached is a photo of the type of shed I'm talking about. This is not my shed, I "borrowed" the photo from here.

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## Chumley

> The original question still has not been answered. Was the $90/GPO a bit steep (in the context of multiple GPO's in a bare shed), or is my reasoning flawed somewhere?

  Hi John (assume the Grumpy is an adjective), 
I'm not an electrician, but I have a bit of knowledge about the 'marketplace'.  I've used the same sparky for several jobs in the last few years - must admit he's usually there when he says he will be, and if not he's not too far away  If I was looking for a GPO installed in my shed, $90 would be fine.  If I had 10 GPOs to get installed, I'd probably ask for a volume discount - if I didn't get it, I'd probably check a couple of other sparkies.  In any case, I'd pay whatever it takes to get the job done.  If all the sparkies quoted $900 to install the 10 GPOs and I needed a sparky to do it, I'd pay the $900.  What's the alternative?  Either do it yourself (aren't allowed to and can't anyway) or don't have it done (ever tried pedalling on a saw table!). 
In practice, the marketplace sets the value of work to be done, same as the value of your house, your car, your salary, etc.  There are oddities, but in general it is all down to supply of electricians and demand for their work. 
Cheers,
Adam 
PS.  I'm always polite to my sparkie (plumber, etc) - never know when I'll need a favour.

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## roba

> For Roba. My comments in blue. Your comments in red.  You are definitely not an accountant.

  
 You are absolutely correct.  A real accountant would shoot this to pieces.  Because in NO single case could this be correct.
For a sole trader (somebody who purely works for themselves), the following don't apply:  severancelong service leave (well, you could pay it to yourself, but really not applicable)payroll tax
For a company with more than 10 employees the following doesn't apply:  income protection (this is the employees responsibility)severance (only applies to large companies who have people employed more than 550 hours per week).
Further, the $25,000 business costs clearly do not multiply by ten for ten employees (rent is not ten times higher, etc).  However, the costs are calculated this way. 
Then there is the whole time off calculations.  You make Picnic day sound like something everybody takes off.  All I can find is that it is a public holiday applicable only in NT.   Further, rather than explain why another 4 days is taken off with no explanation given, you just call me a buffoon. 
When you agree with me about 42 weeks, you say it increases the hourly rate:  

> Correct. It should be 42 weeks (as you say below), which would mean an increase in the hourly rate.

  Incorrect.  This is being subtracted from the total hours work.  More hours worked, less the hourly rate needs to be.  Thing is, I have no issue with a rate of $84/hour.  Doesn't sound particularly high.  It's just the document I have a problem with.

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## Gooner

Man, this thread is growing exponentially every time I check. 
Well, this may be a good time and place to vent considering that the "tradesman no-show" topic was mentioned a few times. 
I am sitting at home today because I took the day off as the roof insulation installers were suppose to come at 9am. At around 9am I get a call saying that they are about 2 hours late due to "bad weather yesterday". (??) Ok, thanks for calling. It's 1:30pm now and I haven;t had any telephone call as to when they are coming. No one is answering the phone.  
Furthermore, *IF* they come now, then there is no chance they will finish the job. Does this mean I have to take tomorrow off as well??  
I have planned to have the evaporative cooling installed on Thursday, so what happens if they decide not to show up at all? I have to cancel that too? 
Just a tad annoyed at the moment. What the f&*# am I doing at home today wasting an annual leave day twiddling my thumbs? Where is their f&***&g phone call? Why the f&*# aren't they answering their phones? 
...calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean.... clam blue ocean......

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## Grumpy John

> Had another go at trying to get a quote today, and had 3 guys show up within 40 minutes of hanging up the phone , looking good so far. Quote came to $1000, which included 32 amp breaker at the meter, running ~30mtr x 6mm cable, supply and fit switch board, fit 1 x 15 amp dbl GPO, 6 x 10 amp dbl GPO and fit 2 flouro's.
> 8 hours @ $95/hr for 2 men.
> I have arranged for another quote tomorrow, says he'll be there at ~2:30. We'll see how that one goes.

  Bad news/good news. The sparkie who was supposed to show up today rang to let me know he wouldn't be able to make it today  :2thumbsup: / :Frown: . We have rebooked for ~11:00 am  this Friday. I don't care why he couldn't make it today (death in the family or stuck in the pub), he called and told me he couldn't make it, that's the important thing.

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## Terrian

> I'm for the "debate area". Look out Terrian

  bring it on big fella  :Smilie:

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## Terrian

> For Terrian.

   
awwww, I'm touched  :Smilie:    

> Since when are public schools "free of charge"?

  near enough to it.   

> Have you got a mercedes benz when you could have a ford lazer? Let's face it, if all you are carrying is paperwork & people, a mercedes benz is not required.

  I actually have a 1991 Subaru Liberty station wagon, amazing the things I can safely fit in it.   

> And what about all the "office" workers who claim tax on their "private" vehicles?

  how many of those claim the full use of the private car as a deduction.   

> Absolutely!

  bugger off, you're not supposed to be agreeing with me at any point, this us 'us agaist them remember !   

> Well, almost. If you want help from people, be careful upon whom you shyte.

  thats not some thinly veiled threat is it ?

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## Terrian

> Man, this thread is growing exponentially every time I check. 
> Well, this may be a good time and place to vent considering that the "tradesman no-show" topic was mentioned a few times. 
> I am sitting at home today because I took the day off as the roof insulation installers were suppose to come at 9am. At around 9am I get a call saying that they are about 2 hours late due to "bad weather yesterday". (??) Ok, thanks for calling. It's 1:30pm now and I haven;t had any telephone call as to when they are coming. No one is answering the phone.  
> Furthermore, *IF* they come now, then there is no chance they will finish the job. Does this mean I have to take tomorrow off as well??  
> I have planned to have the evaporative cooling installed on Thursday, so what happens if they decide not to show up at all? I have to cancel that too? 
> Just a tad annoyed at the moment. What the f&*# am I doing at home today wasting an annual leave day twiddling my thumbs? Where is their f&***&g phone call? Why the f&*# aren't they answering their phones? 
> ...calm blue ocean...calm blue ocean.... clam blue ocean......

  2 days lost wages ?

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## Grumpy John

> Had another go at trying to get a quote today, and had 3 guys show up within 40 minutes of hanging up the phone , looking good so far. Quote came to $1000, which included 32 amp breaker at the meter, running ~30mtr x 6mm cable, supply and fit switch board, fit 1 x 15 amp dbl GPO, 6 x 10 amp dbl GPO and fit 2 flouro's.
> 8 hours @ $95/hr for 2 men.
> I have arranged for another quote tomorrow, says he'll be there at ~2:30. We'll see how that one goes.  Attachment 76310

  
Still waiting for the second sparkie to show to do a quote, only 3 days late, no phone call of course. Took a sickie today coz the concreter said he was coming to do the slab first thing today. I asked him if we could make it Tuesday as that is a day off for me, no go, has to be Monday. It's now just gone 1:00PM no show, no phone call.  *BASTARDS !!!!!*

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## exotiic

Send him a bill for lost earnings if he made you waste a day!

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## Terrian

> Send him a bill for lost earnings if he made you waste a day!

  agreed.
(you wont get any $$ out of him, but what the heck)

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## bugsy

actually you probably would . 
if you had entered into a verbal contract with the sparkie and he never contacted you, then you may have a case of a contract breach.
If you lost wages because of it, you may have a case

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## Grumpy John

No lost wages, I claimed sick pay. His guys turned up the next day and did quite a good job, I asked them if they wanted the money when they were packing up and I was told that the boss would send an invoice. Hands up all those that think that I should take my sweet time sending the cheque?

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## watson

Only by a day

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## Terrian

> No lost wages, I claimed sick pay. His guys turned up the next day and did quite a good job, I asked them if they wanted the money when they were packing up and I was told that the boss would send an invoice. Hands up all those that think that I should take my sweet time sending the cheque?

  I would take my sweet time, but I would not be making a special trip to the post office. 
good to hear the job got done and you are happy with it.

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