# Forum Home Renovation Flooring  sanding floorboards, on knees, the hard way

## shauck

Hi guys. Been a peruser of this forum for a bit and now, my first post (wish it was a more sensible one). We have just bought a miners cottage http://www.renovateforum.com/images/...py/biggrin.gif and are very tight on cash. My partner wants to consider getting pro to do floor sanding, finish. I, as usual hope to do these things myself (money really needed to install some form of kitchen) and after reading about hire equipment (wouldn't mind hearing more about how to use these), got a bit scared of potentially ruining the job through both inexperience and rubbish hire equipment. I was wondering if getting down on hands and knees (35m2) would achieve a more controlled result by using belt and orbital sander. I know, crazy but anyone done this? Have to get keys to house to take photos of boards so more questions to come about types of finishes appropriate to timber species. Thanks in advance for any input.

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## lbg

I'd say the cost of your knee's, back, time and many sanding discs would easily pay for a day of hire...
I'd also question if the result would be more varied (ie. you're only sanding small areas at a time, vs. hire equipment you make full length passes). 
I did my first floor sanding a few months back. It's really not that hard to get a good result (I'm sure the pro's could do better but I was very happy). I hired from the local Dulux paint shop who have a well maintained machine & were able to give lots of advice.

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## Ashwood

If you can hire a floor orbital sander, you couldn't do much damage. They chew more slowly but you DON'T  need great skill. If you use these, you can go for the coarse paper (80) and still not worry about damaging the floor. 
The large floor belt ones, you need to be careful not to dig into the floor and create hills and valleys. But for the same reason, they do a quicker job and are better if you need to get a bit taken out.

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## shauck

> I'd say the cost of your knee's, back, time and many sanding discs would easily pay for a day of hire...
> I'd also question if the result would be more varied (ie. you're only sanding small areas at a time, vs. hire equipment you make full length passes). 
> I did my first floor sanding a few months back. It's really not that hard to get a good result (I'm sure the pro's could do better but I was very happy). I hired from the local Dulux paint shop who have a well maintained machine & were able to give lots of advice.

  What I needed to hear was some positive feedback about doing this job myself. If hired floor sanders are really that bad then I would've got down on my knees with my makita belt sander and orbital for edges (skirts removed) but even a couple of positive posts (thanks again) gives me some confidence. It doesn't have to be a perfect job, hope partner will agree  (usually she's pretty agreeable). Will find out the flooring material and come back with more questions soon. Thanks for all advise.

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## SilentButDeadly

If it is a small area and you don't fear a bit of upheaval for a week then go for it. But don't pretend it'll be cheaper to do it DIY.  
We just hired a floor sander and edge sander from Coates for $85 per day plus belts and pads for our kitchen area, a cleared rectangle <24sqm in area of recycled Tassie Oak floorboards. Sanding this area took us two full days and about a dozen belts (we broke a few of the 60 grit) and about three edge sander pads. Total cost was just shy of $250 for the sanding equipment plus our labour.  The result is 'characterful', which we don't mind because the floor is being oiled anyway, but it would look very not special under poly. 
Frankly, for the next job (a much bigger area of 50sqm and another 25sqm) we'll be getting a pro in because it simply isn't worth the effort and expense if it is going to take that many days. 
For example, family members in Sydney got their whole loungeroom (about 40sqm of white cypress) sanded and coated for $600 (not including cost of floor oil)....

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## Ashwood

Just to clarify, the floor sanding machines I was referring to are the large ones you hire, a bit like lawn mowers.  
The portable belt & orbital sanders you hold in your hands are different, easier to use but you'll take a very very much longer time. The portable orbital ones will really take ages - consider hand sanding the very edges and just use a belt sander for the rest. The portable belt ones chew well, but simply due to the limited size vs the job, it will still take a long time. 
If you go the route of portable belt sanders, consider buying one rather than hiring.   
Personally, my preference in terms of priority would be :
1st choice - hire a floor orbital sander (the lawn mower size) with 80 grit sanding sheets
2nd choice - buy a portable belt sander, also use coarse sanding sheets. 
It's all subjective so find out more yourself and decide. All the best whatever you decide.

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## Gooner

If you do it yourself, do yourself a favour and hire the proper equipment. An orbital or belt sander is going to be damn hard work. If the floors are already very good and only need superficial sanding, maybe, but I doubt this is going to be the case. 
I did all my floors myself and it was a hell of a job. I probably made it harder than it should have been and certainly could do it quicker and easier the second time around, learning from my first experience. 
If you're interested in reading a long-winded detailed post on my 2-3 week floor sanding/polishing ordeal then you can look at this thread... http://www.renovateforum.com/f77/pol...erience-61344/

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## shauck

Lots of good advise. At least no one is saying don't attempt job yourself. I know how to sand so just apply that method to larger equipment. I do have my own makita belt sander by the way and will also be buying an orbital sheet sander for other jobs too. For this job will probably go for larger hired orbital floor sander as it sounds like lots less can go wrong. Makes sense because that's pretty much how you'd see the difference between potentially wrecking a job by using hand held belt sander over orbital sander. Trade off between quick job and caution. Thanks again everyone. Will come back soon when know what timber i'm dealing with.

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## lbg

I used a drum sander both times (I guess that's what people are referring to as "like a lawnmower"). If you can walk at a steady, consistent pace (preferably straight line) then there's not much that can go wrong with these  :Wink:  Just be careful not to get complacent and let it drop too low when turning around or going backwards. 
Is the orbital one where you stand up and move the machine from side to side? If so - I'd be interested to understand which type should be used for different scenarios, or is it just a preference thing?

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## shauck

If you're interested in reading a long-winded detailed post on my 2-3 week floor sanding/polishing ordeal then you can look at this thread... http://www.renovateforum.com/f77/pol...erience-61344/[/QUOTE] 
I was interested in reading long winded post. That's the kinda post that really helps the most. Yours and all the replies are well worth reading. I have lino and carpet to take up. Yay. After reading about your hiring experience, I will be scrupulous. You may even have given me confidence to try drum sander. We'll see. Wait for my head to stop spinning from all the great info first.

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## Gooner

In my experience, the large "industrial" orbital sander (the type you walk around with) is quite difficult to use and easy for it to get away from you. I would think you would have a hell of a time sanding a floor properly with one of these, especially with a lower grit disk such as 40 or 80 grit.  
I found 120 grit gripped the floor and got away from me several times leaving deep scratch marks in the floor that I had to go over with a small sander. It will not do anywhere near as good a job as a proper drum sander. The large orbitals are only generally used *after* you have completed using the drum sander and want to go over it for a finer sand. They are not used for the initial sanding stage.  
The drum sanders are pretty easy to use, espcially if you hire one where the lifting mechanism is a lever type on the handle. Very easy to use and certainly the most efficient/effective way of doing it.  
Do yourself a favour and just hire the proper drum sander and edge sander. If you work from morning it may only take you a day to do the area you want to do. You want to make sure you sand the floor properly to avoid the potential nightmare of adhesion problems when applying the finish, which means you will have to start from scratch again.  I believe the drum sander is the only way to guarantee this. You will simply not achieve the same level of sanding with a hand held sander or large orbital sander as you do with a proper drum sander.  
Same goes with the edger. The edger is very effective at getting right up to the skirts without scratching them. It is also very effective at sanding the floors properly. I found the edger I hired from Bunnings was the best. (The first one I hired from a hire company was a piece of s&$t). I tried to do the edges with a hand-held belt sander but it was very ineffective and scracthed the skirts all up and I quickly abandoned the idea. 
If you want any chance of achieving a professional finish then hire the gear professionals use. You may find using anything else will simply cost you an arm and a leg going through sanding belts or discs, take you 10 times longer, and end up with an inferior result.  
It's a case of false economy trying to use alternative equipment that is simply not up to the job. It's like going through 10 HSS drill bits to drill holes through masonary because you don't want to spend the money on a masonary drill bit. Doesn't make sense.

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## shauck

I hear you Gooner. Drum sander isn't sounding so scary now. Would I then orbital sand to get fine finish or does drum sander take care of it? Can I use belt sander on edges as am taking skirts off before I do the job?? Or should I definitely use edger?

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## eye_less_82

I'll be interested to follow your progress I'll be tackling a similiar job next week for the first time and would love to hear how it goes.

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## shauck

> I'll be interested to follow your progress I'll be tackling a similiar job next week for the first time and would love to hear how it goes.

  You may get there before me as I have to wait for settlement date 26th Oct. If can arrange keys to get in earlier, will do in couple of weeks. Good luck and let us know your experiences.

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## eye_less_82

No probs, I'll keep my eye on this thread and fill you in from a completly inexperienced point of view

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## Gooner

> I hear you Gooner. Drum sander isn't sounding so scary now. Would I then orbital sand to get fine finish or does drum sander take care of it? Can I use belt sander on edges as am taking skirts off before I do the job?? Or should I definitely use edger?

  After using the drum sander, I used a small orbital mouse sander to go over the entire floor. That was just insane on my part as it took a long time on over 100m2 of flooring, but proved that yes, you can use a small orbital to go over the floor to get a fine/better finish. In fact, I would recommend it. I hired a large "walk around" orbital sander and several pads but just couldn't get it right. It left swirl marks (albeit very small) everywhere and difficult to use. By going over the entire floor with the small orbital the floor came out very nicely. As I had never done the job before, I wanted to make sure the floor was "perfect" before I applied the finish. 
If you're taking the skirts off, then scratching them will obviously not be a problem. However, I believe that you will find the belt sander just will not sand the floors to the same degree the drum sander does and so you may find a noticable "edge" in the areas that the drum sander doesn't reach. I guess it won't hurt to try it, and if it doesn't work out, just go and hire an edger. They are not that expensive to hire. The sanding disks will probably cost more than the hire. However, having said this, you should initially sand the floor with 40 grit on the drum and the edger. Then 60-80 grit on the drum and edger, and then 120 on both as well. I wouldn't recommend doing all the drum sanding and then after going back with the edger as you will not be able to blend it properly. 
Most of the literature I read on the subject usually says to use the drum sander and then the edge for each grit. I found it much better to use the edger and then the drum sander, as the drum sander removes the swirls left by the edger up to about 10cm from the wall. Then you can use a handheld orbital to blend the two regions.

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## Gooner

One more thing, you haven't mentioned what type of timber foors you have. I am assumming some type of hardwood flooring that has been down for a few decades which will is harder to sand. If you have some type of pine flooring (or any other type of soft wood) then your woes with using a handheld sander will not be as great. 
I also assume you will be painting the walls and skirts while you have them off. Perfect time to do it. just need to decide which comes first.. painting walls or finishing floors.

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## shauck

> After using the drum sander, I used a small orbital mouse sander to go over the entire floor.  
> I*'m sure you would have used a bigger one if you'd had it. I'll be getting one anyway so thats good. * 
> As I had never done the job before, I wanted to make sure the floor was "perfect" before I applied the finish.  *I'll be happy if it's just pretty good. can always go over it again one day when i'm after perfect.* 
> However, I believe that you will find the belt sander just will not sand the floors to the same degree the drum sander does and so you may find a noticable "edge" in the areas that the drum sander doesn't reach. I guess it won't hurt to try it, and if it doesn't work out, just go and hire an edger.   *Worth trying it.*  
> I wouldn't recommend doing all the drum sanding and then after going back with the edger as you will not be able to blend it properly.  *Good to complete stage by stage* 
> Most of the literature I read on the subject usually says to use the drum sander and then the edge for each grit. I found it much better to use the edger and then the drum sander, as the drum sander removes the swirls left by the edger up to about 10cm from the wall. Then you can use a handheld orbital to blend the two regions.

  Ah, yes. Something I was wondering about. Once again lots of great advice. 
I have to do it know. With all this help. Praise the forum.

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## shauck

> One more thing, you haven't mentioned what type of timber foors you have. I am assumming some type of hardwood flooring that has been down for a few decades which will is harder to sand. If you have some type of pine flooring (or any other type of soft wood) then your woes with using a handheld sander will not be as great. 
> I also assume you will be painting the walls and skirts while you have them off. Perfect time to do it. just need to decide which comes first.. painting walls or finishing floors.

  Floor (dust and mess) first with skirts off then paint rooms. We're pretty neat.  
Most of the floors are hardwood. Not sure what variety. Will get pics and post them. Some in bedroom are pine, I think.  
It's a miners cottage built around 1890s but with additions. The floor may not be as old as the house. It's been looked after so...maybe newer but doubt newer than 50s. 
It is very tiny tho. About 6m x 6m plus bathroom 3x3 added to side of house. At moment it has no proper working kitchen. Has old wood stove sitting in tin fireplace tacked onto side of house. Will remove these and try to sell to someone who'll love them. Bathroom no plaster or tiles and rough concrete floor. Other than that, from what I can tell it's in great nick. Newish tin on roof. Good weatherboards mostly. Same for windows, etc. Looked at boards from under house and they look straight and in good nick too. One or two to replace in corner of living room (old, long gone termite damage). Good sub floor. Also no driveway or front of house parking yet which will be fun for a while. Any way we are over the moon and it will be a delight to work on. I'll be here (posting) a lot I reckon.

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## namtrak

> Lots of good advise. At least no one is saying don't attempt job yourself. .....

  When I did our major reno, this is the one job I got done professionally.  I had done a couple of the rooms early on, and basically the problem wasnt with my ability (I think) but with the quality of the hire tools.  In particular the drum sander leaves ripples on the floor which are almost impossible to remove completely. 
Personally, I would save my pennies and get a pro in when it is all said and done.  It is a matter of about $1,000 difference between the cost of hire and belt purchase and the hassle factor - compared to a schmicko job.

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## shauck

Here's some pics of the floor boards taken from underneath the house. Not great quality as had to reduce so as would fit upload criteria. 
Look like pine to me. ???  Thought the living/kitchen was hardwood till I got underneath and took these pics.  
Pine = easier sanding. Softer though.

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## dazzler

I did the total reno on our kitchen but left the floor sanding/finishing to an expert.  A timber floor is a focal point of the kitchen and for the little it costs to get a professional in is well worth it. Even if you need to leave it for a couple of years until the cash comes in.

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## shauck

Yeah, Dazzler. I'm leaning towards getting someone to do the job. My schedule is mad. 
Also, just got a disappointing viewing of floor yesterday. Lifted the carpet up as it was only laying there (that's easy) but one of the bedroom's boards are not staggered. I have some thinking to do.  
To fix now or not? To sand and finish as is and redo again later after fixing floor, maybe? The bed will cover most of it. 
Would It be hard to just redo one room later and match the rest of house?

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## Christopher_940

we  oftern sand one room at work sanding isnt the hard part its cutting off in the doorway i can do it so u cant even tell but a lot off amatures will goug the edger in so u get a hight difference and it looks like @@@@ id get a pro in to do the lot mate

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## commodorenut

> For example, family members in Sydney got their whole loungeroom (about 40sqm of white cypress) sanded and coated for $600 (not including cost of floor oil)....

  That sounds about what we paid 2 years ago - similar size loungeroom, plus 4 bedrooms (total floor space was just under 100 square metres) and it came in at $1650 complete (I gave him an extra $50to buy a carton on the way home).  The price also included 2 coats of satin finish poly.  It took 2 guys 2 full days, then only one guy on the 3rd day. 
I'm all for doing it myself, but after seeing the expert control these guys had of the machine, and having a little turn at it myself (with their encouragement) there's no way I'd even attempt it on very soft floors like ours.  For the money, and the time, I would get a pro in.  I did consider doing the poly myself, but factored in the problem of discrepancies in the finish if the sanding wasn't right - if they do the lot then it's their problem.   
I'd highly recommend the guys I had - they worked like trojans during the punching, puttying & sanding process (we'd already removed the carpet).

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## shauck

Well, we wont be able to get into the poperty before settlement. Pity. Will mean juggling act with house contents. Have a local guy lined up to come see the job at hand. I would have liked to do the job myself but at the least, I'm well informed about the process and will be able to assert some quality control and have idea of how choices in finishes will impact the floors. There's plenty else for me to do anyway. Will post updates as they come.

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## shauck

An update on how things are going. We decided to get a guy in to do the floors.  
We have one of our rentals (my partners place) for a bit longer than the settlement date so we'll paint walls and ceilings before ripping up the carpet and then have just enough time to get the floors done before moving all our stuff in.  
Lucky it's such a small house and he can get it done on a weekend as he's pretty busy the rest of the time. Should be in the house on the 4th Nov. 
He's quoted $1260 +GST for a water based poly, with one coat of sealer and 2 top coats, based on 36m2. We could have chosen tung oil for $850 +GST. More affordable but went for slightly more durable and don't want yellowing. 
We have some particular ideas on paint colours and timber benchtop choices in the kitchen/living area and hope to get the floor looking somewhat compatible to these.  
Will take some before and after shots and put them up here soon.

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## eye_less_82

We just did the floor sanding at our place over the weekend. It was hardwork but well worth it. The hire equipment was of good quality and made easy work of the floor. we went over the floor twice with the heavy grit paper to remove all the paint and crap left on the floor, then with a handheld orbital to remove any stubborn spots. Then we used the medium grit twice then finally the fine grit paper. Everything went fine and I'm glad we did it ourselves.  
We decided not to sand on a 45 deg to the grain (which is what some recommend) as this would have required more work with the lighter graded paper, and because of the fact im not profesional and didn't want to completely F... my boards. 
I'm no expert but I would recommend giving it a crack yourself if you have the time. good luck

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## GraemeCook

> An update on how things are going. We decided to get a guy in to do the floors.

  
You have probably made the correct decision. 
With floors, if there is any significant cupping and/or bowing in the timber then the sander has to flatten the floor and you need experience to get a good finish that is consistent.   This is a job for the pro.   
If the floors are flat and only need surface sanding then with good hire equipment its a DIY, provided you have time.   That time is before anything is moved into the house.   Time pressures send you to the pro. 
If it were my place, I would add two more coats of estapol - it will substantially lengthen the life before recoating is needed. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## jaytee

Well
I have just joined and straight away I found answers to some questions, will follow the replys to the original thread. 
jt

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## Cptnlnsan0

Im in the same boat - just bought a house with floorboarsd that need love.  
I hired a POLYVAC (rotary sander) - about $60 per day + sandpaper and it did a great job. The most important tip I learned was to rub the floor with kerosene before sanding  (just do the patch your gonna sand then move along and do the next area - I worked about 2sqm at a time) 
This machine wont dig your floor up and its easy to use, also sucks all the dust up for you so you dont have an excessive cleanup. Its very user friendly and I highly recommend having a shot with it. 
Edging is possible with a handheld but I'd still recommend spending the extra $40 to hire a edge sander - its not a huge expense for a better finish and a lot less dickin around.  
Im finishing with FEAST WATSON China wood Oil (not cheap though ~$70 for 4L) - this doesnt need sanding between coats and has a MATT finish, it also dry's quicker and *isnt* extremely dangerous to inhale unlike polyeurothane (a plus if you like your health).  
Good Luck

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## shauck

Well we finally reached settlement 3 days ago (Fri 30th Oct). It was delayed 4 days due to a paperwork issue. ( we foot the bill for that of course).  
The floor sander came in to start the job on Sat. I was all prepared, with salvaged timber from the tip, to sort out a storage area under the house.  
Floor sander (Andy) says bedroom joists spaced too far apart so I had to fix that first. Luckily had that salvaged timber and put in five extra rows of joists under the bedrooms. Took me a few hours. Then top nailed the boards on Sun morning.  
He rescheduled for today so hopefully no probs. Also got my storage area done pretty much and we did a big clean up round the property (so much for previous owners leaving the property "empty") 
Have a few pics of floor and things on camera. When I find download cable, will post them and more of the finished job.  
We went for water based poly in a matt finish with a slight tint. Hoping it comes up pretty good. 
Back soon

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## shauck

Well the floors are done but not to the finish we originally decided on (water based poly). Andy said that he would get somedarkening in to the floor by first using an oil then a poly over that. We assessed the floors after the oil and it wasn't dark enough so at the last hour (we had to move in hte next day) he put some tint in another coat of oiland that's as far as it got. No time to put a coat of poly on it. Instead of $1450 (GST inc) he wants $900. Would have liked that last coat but hey, we aren't that fussy and just glad to be in. There is so much to do around here. Replace doors, extend the living space onto the verandah, New large window, Plaster the house, paint outside and repair some weather boards, deck, bathroom, driveway and gardening, oh, and build a kitchen. I really have my work cut out for me. I hope to get a fair bit of that done within a year. Will start a new thread when I tackle the next thing. I really reckon that although it took the headache out of doing the floors myself, I still wish I'd had a go at it. Maybe next time. Thanks for all your interest. 
Su.

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## rhysvando

does anyone recommend a flor sander in the north brisbane area? was thinking of tackling the house myself (done the kitchen myself using hired gear ) but wouldnt mind getting a quote to see how much the final saving of doing it myself would be. see if it makes it worth it?
cheers
rhys

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