# Forum Home Renovation Decking  Treated Pine Decking-Movement and Screws

## buzza1

Hi All, 
I am planning to build  a large deck of about 50 square meters in the next few weeks and have decided on screwing the treated pine decking to TP subfloor using Bremick 10g x 65mm stainless screws. 
Reason why I'm screwing it is that a previous deck i did a few years back in the same area i used titadecks and it cupped, lifted and twisted   :Cry:  within a year despite numerous coats of Cabots Stain. 
Anyways, my question, I am envisaging the same type of movement, it is exposed to the elements in the Vic High Country, and was wondering should i drill a larger pilot hole in the TPO decking to accomodate any movement or just use the 10g Smart-Bit as is. 
Also I am planning on covering it with a few coats of RainShield and then a few coats of Cabots Stain ? 
Thoughts ? 
Thanks Everyone
Buzza

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## dcwalker

Buzza 
I think you've fallen victim to a very common misconception about nailing down decking.  
Radiata pine is a very soft, very weak species and is nowhere near strong enough to lift good nails out of their joists. As you no doubt know already, the movement you've seen is caused by the timber reacting to changes in moisture levels. As the timber's surfaces dry at different rates the boards tend to move one way or another. Radiata is soft enough to move around the fasteners and the timber will deform against the shafts of the nails. Particularly troublesome boards can even lift right over the nail head. 
This all happens not because the nails aren't able to contain the timber, but because the timber is simply too soft to be adequately held in place. If you drive a 65mm ring shank nail into a softwood joist and then use your claw hammer to pull it back out again you'll most likely rip the nail head off before the shank pulls out of the wood. They are very, very difficult to remove and radiata pine simply cannot move such a nail. Note: ring shank, not screw shank. 
Using screws instead of nails is fine, but won't give you a better result. You'll actually get a worse result if you predrill because you need a tight fit around the nail shank. The only good purpose in predrilling is to avoid splitting, and splitting is not an issue with softwoods. 
The solution lies in minimising the timber's tendancy to move, rather than trying harder to hold it down. The best way to achieve this is to oil your decking on all 4 sides and end grains before laying it. This is the only way to effectively seal the timber and prevent water from passing in and out of its cells. Use a penetrating oil, give it two coats on all surfaces, and do it before you lay it.  
Don't use a stain and call it oiling. Don't use Rainshield. Use a penetrating oil.  
If you seal it properly at the time of construction, nail it with ring-shank nails (2 per joist) and reseal it every year your radiata pine deck will last for many years with little or no excessive movement. 
I know this because I've done it myself hundreds of times and have clients who remain happy 10+ years on.  
Any other builders have similar or contrary views? I think this question is worthy of discussion as it's something I encounter regularly. I think radiata gets a particularly bad rap, not because it's no good, but because it's not laid well enough. 
Damien

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## buzza1

Damien, 
Thanks for your detailed response. I didnt feel like screwing 2500 screws. :Biggrin:  
I will go with the 65mm ring shank nails and coat boards it in a penetrating oil. 
Is there any issue in using stainless steel and a coil nail gun ? 
Any suggestions on which penetrating oil to use ?? 
Many many Thanks !!!! 
Regards
Buzza

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## dcwalker

Stainless is a good choice as it's guaranteed not to react with the copper in the timber plus they look great. 
Absolutely use a coil nailer. There's really no need to nail by hand. 
Make sure you get the drive depth right, practice a little if needed. The nail head should put just a slight indentation on the timber, no deeper. If you drive the nails too deeply you'll create a well for water to sit in. One way to get a really neat finish is to set the drive depth so the nails don't drive all the way in, but sit a millimeter or so above the surface, you can then knock them to the perfect depth with a strike from your hammer. 
As for the oil, I find it difficult to go past Organoil (also branded Ecowood oil). They make an all-natural product that is a pleasure to use. Intergrain's Nature's Timber is another good penetrating oil. Make sure you closely follow the instructions on the tin.

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## Bloss

Damien's right - my experience with properly laid TP decking has been positive - even with no coatings at all. But like all my decking also I select suitable decking and discard rubbish and get exchange or refund - and don't deal with a  supplier who won't. Of course you've gotta know what to select . . .  :Smilie:

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## leeton

Sorry if I missed it, but can you get ring shanked nails "lose" as in not for a nail gun and where?  :Confused:

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## UteMad

One of the biggest problems with T Pine decking is the place it fits into the market.. Its the one at the bottom that the customer with insufficient funds to do the project heads for.. This tends to mean people dont adequately fix and install it due to the fact they are getting poverty money for doing so.. We find guys bradding it down with ND or T or paslode framers .. and anything else they can find thats cheap and nasty.. Stopping the expansion and contraction of the boiard is the key to living with pine decking.. do nothing and it will look cr#ppy in a short period of time.. I haven't ever wasted my time screwing a pine deck to memory.. If they have screw money then they have hwd money too. 65mm titadecks will hold pine fine and dandy screws will do no better as said above even RGD coil nails will stay in the joist when the board is crow barred off with the head just pulling through the board.. 
As to oiling 4 sides its a winner but i have never found a customer who would pay for that on pine and i have never had an issue with a top oiled pine deck either if maintained.. Oiled with feast and watson and not stained.. I have had a f & w stained pine deck in the sun look hammered in 3 months though so stick with oil 
cheers utemad

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## UteMad

[quote=dcwalker;755209]Stainless is a good choice as it's guaranteed not to react with the copper in the timber plus they look great. 
Absolutely use a coil nailer. There's really no need to nail by hand.  
Careful with guarantees .. if your using paslode for your coil nails you will very fast realise with a phone call its you offering the guarantee with absolutely no backing from them .. its strictly buyer beware .. I rang and made inquiries direct to paslode for a big project with particular requirements and they dont back there product at all..You only have to look around and you will find tonnes of coil nailed hwd decks failing. I have pics of a 3 month old one and know of another thats 6 months old never used ( commercial area locked off to public )and to now uncoated and its failing too. 
Also didn't see if it was said above.. ring shank goes into pine joists screw shank into hwd joists regardless of gal or stainless.. Also found that you get more side impression marks with dome headed nails.. We don't coil hwd decks only pine as screwing for hwd provides far better results we find .. Where coils and pine go together in the market just fine. 
cheers utemad
Cheers utemad

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## dcwalker

Hi all 
Some good points raised here. 
Utemad - I've never had a problem with getting a client to pay for having their boards oiled on every side, yet you've not found one prepared to pay. Strange, huh? I reckon it must be in our approach - don't know about you, but I start by assuming I'll oil every side and build that into my quote, don't even tell the client unless they ask. If price is an issue for them then I can bring the price down by oiling only after it's laid. I prefer to oil every side for my own sake as much as my client, they get a better end product, I have less callbacks and I make a little more money. Each to his own though. 
Leeton - great question. I can't say I've ever seen loose ring shank nails. If you can't get them and won't be using a gun then you have 2 options: buy screw shank instead, they're still a good choice; or buy ring shank on a plastic coil, pull them apart and drive them with your hammer. This is what I do if ever I find myself using a hammer, it's just as effective but you need to be careful when nailing as the hammer tends to slip off the dome head of the nail making you look like a newbie!  
By the way, if you're hammering a lot of nails do yourself and your arm a favour and buy a good hammer. For less than $50 the Stanley Fat Max is really good value, is nicely balanced and will cause much less fatigue than an old fashioned hammer with a wooden handle and a heavy head.  
Damien

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## Marc

Hi there!
Interesting debate. I am intrigued at UteMad comment of no  guarantee from Paslode. I suppose you refer to their nails not the gun. I use  Hitachi air coil gun and Koala nails in SS and never had a problem with nailing  pine decks. 
Of course I wouldn't even try to nail down hardwood with a gun.  The variations in hardness will mean you have to finish every nail by hand and  the coil nails are softer than loose nails so you will bend a good proportion of  them when you try to bang them further. Forget it! Hardwood is pre drill and  screw or hand nail only. I feel back pain coming on just by thinking about  it!
What exactly went wrong with those deck that you refer  to? 
Pre-oiling the boards sounds like a good idea even when time  consuming. I suppose you could spread them down on the joist and oil them with  the applicator and then turn it around and give it another go. If you are going  to use a brush one by one, may as well give the underside a coat or two of  exterior paint. That will last longer than oil. 
I agree that treated  pine has a place in the market and that particularly with decks under cover it  gives very good results, providing you don't install it grooves up. 
I  think that as with every thing you by, you have to by quality if you want  quality results. Last TP deck I built, I was short a few boards and sent my son  in law to Bunnings to get them in stead of buying from the same supplier I got  the rest. 
Big mistake. Rubbish does not describe correctly what I got. It  did not even feel like pine. More like poppy or willow wood, spongy twisted an  hopeless. I had to go back and turn over a whole pile in order to find 4 decent  length. Having said that I bought some TP from another Bunnings store and it was  OK.
So in TP there is the good stuff, the bad stuff and the ugly stuff. Make  sure you choose a supplier that is consistent and can guarantee quality. Also  the end  size of the gaps you end up with on your TP deck are inversely  proportional to the price you pay for your timber. The lower the price the  bigger the gaps. 
If you buy the cheapest possible, the advantage is that if  you drop a coin, you can reach between the boards to retrieve it.

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## ricey250

Is oiling both sides reccomended for hardwood also or just TP? 
Cheers, 
Ricey

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## mikm

Generally not, Ricey.  Hardwood doesn't move anywhere near as much as treated pine.      The last deck I did was hardwood over TP joists with ring shanks and I was not impressed.  The hardwood decking hasn't really moved all that much (no splits or warps), but all of the ring shank heads work their way up to 2mm above the surface of the deck over the course of a year or so.  I dont think the ring shanks gripped at all well in the treated pine joists.  Screw shanks on the other hand have been fine where I replaced some of the worst ring shanks.  As a side note, compare how well a hardwood fence used to age (back when people still used to put them up) compared to a TP fence.  Unless sealed on every surface as has been mentioned above for decking, the pailings start to pull themselves off the fence rails in no time flat, with the whole fence usually looking terrible within three years.  I think the industry looks to TP to solve problems (read: save money) far too often when something else is much more suitable.  In most cases, I would rather put the labour cost of sealing TP on all surfaces towards the material cost of hardwood or steel and have a better looking and longer lasting product in the end any day. Cheers, Mick

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## UteMad

Hi Guys 
As to the warranty bit i was referring to the nail itself.. the guns are fine and have no issue with poslode gunes or duofast coiler. Even paslode was astonished at the nails we had put through our coiler with no servicing other than good compressor bleeding and oiling.. 
The issue with the coil nails into hwd are as pics below show.. ( 3months old and done not by us ) 
Decking is Merbau 90mm          
I think they speak for themselves with splitting.. piston impressions .. end splits.. and whats not shown is the amount of popped nails.. All after 3 months and this is the standard of a lot of contractors in sydney atleast.. 
cheers utemad

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## Marc

Uhuu, I know the person that did that almost by name. I know he lives either in  Cabramatta or Lakemba. 
I had one of those install an aircon in a rented  property. He put the compressor unit against a wall of the laundry ( nothing  wrong so far) and the evaporator in the living room above a window. (Still all  good) He then preceded to install the pipes but they were a tad too short. So he  decided to take a shortcut. Entered from the centre of the laundry wall and exit  the centre of the living room wall yet the pipes did not follow the wall, they  go across in the air 45 degree over your head as you enter the laundry. My  tenant hangs his socks from it. 
A trade...yea...what's so hard in banging  a nail righ

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## buzza1

Thanks All !! 
I'm starting next weekend and have decided on the following, and it seems to be the way to go when doing a TP deck: 
TP joists & bearers will have rubber deckstrip to protect from moisture 
TP decking will have 2 coats Intergrain's Nature's Timber  applied to all sides 
Use 65mm ring shank nails with coil gun 
Many many Thanks !!!! 
Regards
Buzza 
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## agt

What timber are you using on the deck?

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## BrissyBrew

an interesting read:
As I am doing the decking myself, looking at hardwood spotted gum decking on hardwood joists, it appears a good idea to oil (lightly) both sides of the decking prior to application? Or because I have access to the sub floor easily, I could oil under the boards later (except were the decking is attached to the boards). Probably overkill on hardwood from what I understand but I assume the small amount of decking oil used would be a minimal cost and may prolong the life of the deck.

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