# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  Electrical Wiring and Ceiling insulation

## gg23

Hi,
Wondering what the regulations are in relation to ceiling wiring and insulation batts. I have read different conflicting advice and am not sure what the correct way is to mix wiring and insulation. 
Thanks
Greg

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## nev25

To answer the question accurately 
It would better to explain why you need to know

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## Jonno_G

I understand Nev's hesitation in answering, but I'll assume that you're looking at insulating your ceiling, and NOT at doing your own wiring. (You do know that is illegal, right?) 
I was actually discussing this with my electrician yesterday, and his explanation was fairly straightforward. He told me that "If your wiring is run within X mm of your insulation (glass batts or whatever) and is not secured (cable clips every Ymm) then it must be derated as though it is fully surrounded by the insulation." 
i.e. Its current carrying capacity is effectively reduced according to the tables in the Wiring Rules. 
I say "X" and "Y" millimetres because I don't know the numbers, and I don't know if they might vary according to the type and size of cable and/or other factors. You will need to talk to an electrician who has domestic wiring experience and who knows the Wiring Rules in order to get that information accurately. 
Disclaimer: While I do work in a field related to the electrical industry, I'm not an electrician. A quick check of Nev's profile shows that he is, and so he might be able to correct/clarify what I've just said.

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## Master Splinter

> .....so he might be able to correct/clarify what I've just said.

   :Roflmao2:  :Roflmao2:  :Roflmao2:  :Roflmao2:

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## Jonno_G

I don't get it.... 
...what's so funny?  :Cry:

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## Master Splinter

Sorry, didn't realise you were new here... 
I'll let you in on what made me laugh...here's some of Nev's past answers on similar topics: 
"Maybe you should have had an electrician do the job and he would know the regulations" 
"BTW the wiring rules be bought by anyone here http://www.saiglobal.com/shop/Script...AS0733783911AT
But it takes a 4 year apprenticeship to understand them         " 
"Thats why a 4 year apprenticeship EXPERIENCE 
There is a big difference between knowing and doing" 
"Get a Sparkie he will know" 
"You wont get any Electrical wiring advice on here Buddy - ring a sparkie"

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## chuth77

Do a seach in the forum, and you'll find a couple of topics with the clearances required between downlights and insulation as per AS3000:2007...

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## chrisp

Long ago, someone posted a good link to the cable rating tables on the web.  I couldn't find the post or the link, but I did find this link that might provide a bit more info for those who don't have access to AS/NZS 3008 (and four years to read it and AS/NZS 3000  :Roflmao2:  )  http://storage.baselocation.com/olex...7055222e07.pdf

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## Jonno_G

Ah, I see,....LOL!  :Biggrin:  
Yeah, I see where he's coming from though. I actually had a copy of AS3000:2007 on the shelf behind me at the time I wrote the post, but since I'm *not* an electrician I could only pass on the general idea of what I've been told. 
It's been many years since I studied the design of domestic installations, and I've not done anything much more than TA on the actual job. As such, I'm not in a position to give detailed technical advice. 
I can add a further question to the discussion, though, and I'll direct it at Nev:  _Is it acceptable for a homeowner/DIY'er to go through and fasten the cabling up out of the way of the insulation (for example, before adding ceiling insulation) in order to avoid compromising the integrity of electrical installation?_

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## nev25

> I can add a further question to the discussion, though, and I'll direct it at Nev:  _Is it acceptable for a homeowner/DIY'er to go through and fasten the cabling up out of the way of the insulation (for example, before adding ceiling insulation) in order to avoid compromising the integrity of electrical installation?_

  
NO
See post http://www.renovateforum.com/showthread.php?t=74437

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## Master Splinter

> NO
> See post http://www.renovateforum.com/showthread.php?t=74437

  Remember, it takes four years to learn how to use a hammer near electrical wires, and it's not something you can just learn in a book, the knowledge must be bestowed on you by an ordained and annointed master craftsman who, after performing a smoking ceremony (sometimes referred to as 'smoko' by the chosen) will introduce you to the ancient mysteries of twisting wire ends, cutting insulation tape and other sacred rituals. After the ceremony, the newly instructed acknowledges the gift of wisdom by taking the master for a 'daily devotional' at a place of gathering known as a 'local pub'. 
Sacred mysteries aside, I doubt that the average cable would be installed with enough slack to allow re-routing and securing it all - typically it's just chucked across the joists in the most convenient path which wont necessarily be the one suitable for relocating it.  
However, the book says (my emphasis): 
3.4 CURRENT-CARRYING CAPACITY
3.4.1 General
Every conductor shall have a current-carrying capacity, in accordance
with the AS/NZS 3008.1 series, not less than the current to be carried
by the conductor.
In determining the required current-carrying capacity, provision shall be
made for *reasonably foreseeable changes to external influences, such as
the installation of thermal insulation in ceiling spaces and walls.* 
Therefore I'd just turf the insulation in, as it is the sparkies responsibility to take account that today's uninsulated domestic roofspace may become well insulated tomorrow. 
See also the NZ guide for DIY sparky-ing: http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/temp...____18598.aspx

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## chuth77

> I can add a further question to the discussion, though, and I'll direct it at Nev:  _Is it acceptable for a homeowner/DIY'er to go through and fasten the cabling up out of the way of the insulation (for example, before adding ceiling insulation) in order to avoid compromising the integrity of electrical installation?_

  Of course Nev is going to say no... :2thumbsup:  
Let's look at it this way... Are the insulation installation technicians qualified electricians? Of course they are... They've all spent the tough 4 years as an apprentice, and finally earned their license... They know there is a new Australian Standard that dictates the required clearances... They know that covering cables with insulation, be that batts or loose fill, derates the cable....

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## Bloss

The easy solution is to make sure that a) you have circuit breakers installed, not wire fuses, and b) that the breakers are rated to protect the cable according to the chart that MasterSplinter accidentally attached to his post. 
That would mean for most cables servicing standard GPOs of 2.5mm then a 16amp breaker and for lighting circuits mostly using 1mm cable then an 8amp breaker is appropriate. 
Real life use (and there are always exceptions) would rarely see the cable capacity (which also varies with distance and temperature) even close to being reached. 
When I recently topped up my insulation so that I now have >R-7 in the ceiling and R-4 in the walls I had my sparky lower ratings of the a couple of my breakers as above (two GPO circuits had been 20amp) and although I had breakers before I also had him insert screw-in ceramic blocks so that in future no one could by accident replace a breaker with a wire fuse block, but would have to use a breaker (although they could still use a wrong size - ya can't stop stupidity). 
But now we have to shoot you as this has been secret electricians' business . . .   :Biggrin:  
BTW - Nev can seem touchy - but he's not often wrong and he sure ain't when it comes to doing your own electrical work.

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## Uncle Bob

> But now we have to shoot you as this has been secret electricians' business . . .

  Made me lol  :Tongue:

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## barney118

It just gets better :brava: . "Its classified"  " I can tell you but then I have to kill you",
So it takes 4 years to use a hammer, nails and a saw, another 4 to use a screwdriver, adhesive tape and like colours go together, another 4 to use blue glue and plastic pipes, 4 years to use the tape measure, 18 years to learn pythagoras and trigonometry, well throw in another 4 using pre mixed glues, tiles and a level, 4 more for the bits missed out. 
So now I have to call in the sparky who rewired my whole house and put new insulated wires through the steel conduit which could have ruptured feeding through the walls cause he did do the 4 year course and got pass marks, cause Im not allowed to undo red ones and green ones and black ones whilst the power is off and locked out and put through the wall properly. 
I am a tradesman twice over not in these feilds and you wonder why if you want it done properly do it yourself as you will take the care and you are not getting charged by the money meter. 
Nev this is why you are the man, there comes a point where I call in the sparky casue one flash and your ash !

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## Terrian

> Sacred mysteries aside, I doubt that the average cable would be installed with enough slack to allow re-routing and securing it all - typically it's just chucked across the joists in the most convenient path which wont necessarily be the one suitable for relocating it.

  unless it happens to be like the wiring in the extension at my inlaws.
had reason to have to go up into the roof (find a cracked roof tile), what a mess, a rough guess is the sparkies had an extra spool or 2 of wire they needed to get rid of, nothing neat or tidy about their work, and so much slack one could move the wiring to almost anywhere one wanted (I kid you not!) 
Then there was the plumber/ gasfitter, currently they have no heating (4 days so far) because the guy that came to fit the new gas heater in the lounge has had to contact the relevant authorities about the illegal & dangerous work of the previous gasfitter (who supplied the right compliance paperwork, but incorrectly filled in) had done. Basically it sounds like everthing will have to be redone to make the gas complient. 
And some people here question why others would want to know how a job is suppoed to be properly done, sheesh

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## elkangorito

My comments in blue.   

> Remember, it takes four years to learn how to use a hammer near electrical wires, and it's not something you can just learn in a book, the knowledge must be bestowed on you by an ordained and annointed master craftsman who, after performing a smoking ceremony (sometimes referred to as 'smoko' by the chosen) will introduce you to the ancient mysteries of twisting wire ends, cutting insulation tape and other sacred rituals. After the ceremony, the newly instructed acknowledges the gift of wisdom by taking the master for a 'daily devotional' at a place of gathering known as a 'local pub'.  You, like so many, make electrical work sound excessively easy. I'm sure if I were to make similar comments about woodworking practices, I would be met with objections. 
> Therefore I'd just turf the insulation in, as it is the sparkies responsibility to take account that today's uninsulated domestic roofspace may become well insulated tomorrow.  I agree. A good electrician would allow for this.

   

> Of course Nev is going to say no... 
> Let's look at it this way... Are the insulation installation technicians qualified electricians? Of course they are... They've all spent the tough 4 years as an apprentice, and finally earned their license... They know there is a new Australian Standard that dictates the required clearances... They know that covering cables with insulation, be that batts or loose fill, derates the cable....

  Are you saying that Insulation Installation Technicians need to be licensed? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):    

> It just gets better. "Its classified"  " I can tell you but then I have to kill you",
> So it takes 4 years to use a hammer, nails and a saw, another 4 to use a screwdriver, adhesive tape and like colours go together, another 4 to use blue glue and plastic pipes, 4 years to use the tape measure, 18 years to learn pythagoras and trigonometry, well throw in another 4 using pre mixed glues, tiles and a level, 4 more for the bits missed out.

  Yet again another silly exaggeration of the real issue at hand.   
Whilst I do agree with electrical DIY work IF it is inspected after completion, I don't think that that this kind of work is as easy as some people think it is. Being "qualified" in reality & a lot of the time, means absolutely nothing! Using your brain and using common sense is far more important than any piece of paper, which states your qualification, will ever be.  
Let's face it. Actually wiring a house isn't rocket science! The "how to do" documents all over the internet show it's a pretty simple affair - HOWEVER - having the intelligence to digest the information and ensure it's put into practice correctly is the difficult bit. 
To further clarify, electrical apprenticeships train people for the electrical world...not just for domestic installations. Since this is the case, it is therefore feasible to conduct an Electrical Residential Wiring course in which all participants would need to learn the basic electrical theory, which takes about 1000 hours of instruction & wiring techniques/regulations. Of course, more needs to be allowed for study, tutorials & testing.
You don't just go to class & "absorb & remember". You need time to "understand" it. Yet again, it's harder for practical learning. Even more time is required to "understand".
Anybody can talk about "screwdrivers & hammers" but this is a very simplistic view of education. 
If all of you who believe that domestic electrical work is so simple, why ask all the questions? 
The Original Poster (OP) asked a simple question. He could have easily received a simple answer but he didn't. Why not? 
Blaming electrical tradespeople for a regulatory problem is silly. Ridiculing electrical tradespeople (or any tradespeople) for justifying their existence (4 year apprenticeship) is even sillier. If you're not careful, there will not be any "qualified tradespeople" to answer your questions on this forum. Be nice & understand the position we tradespeople are in. I'm sure that Nev is not against telling anybody anything but the current regulations make it almost impossible for him (& me) to do so (legally). 
Finally, if any of you believe that you have paid for defective or dangerous electrical work, your recourse is The Department of Fair Trading. If any of you have any regulatory questions (like the question posted), telephone your local energy authority.

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## chrisp

> I'm sure that Nev is not against telling anybody anything but the current regulations make it almost impossible for him (& me) to do so (legally).

  elkangorito, 
Do you have a reference to this law?  I recall Nev claiming the same but was unable to provide any reference to the law. 
It seems strange that it would be "illegal" to provide correct advice - I can only think of a couple of exceptional circumstances where it is illegal to provide the correct information (revealing certain people in a court of law, and a method of voting). 
I'm wondering if this is an insurance issue, or perhaps an industry policy (but not actually a law).  What would be purpose be of a law that bans sharing information?

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## nev25

> So it takes 4 years to use a hammer, nails and a saw, another 4 to use a screwdriver, adhesive tape and like colours go together, another 4 to use blue glue and plastic pipes, 4 years to use the tape measure, 18 years to learn pythagoras and trigonometry, well throw in another 4 using pre mixed glues, tiles and a level, 4 more for the bits missed out.

  
WOW a butcher by trade
And I suppose it took you a 4 year apprenticeship to learn what most housewife do every night of the week CUT MEAT 
And a got a recreation pilot certificate 
WOW I can takeoff and land planes on Microsoft FSX very well how many hours of training did to take you
And yes I have read BAK Book 
And another one a plasterer Took 4 years to learn what Bunnings teach in a half hour DIY workshop
Oh and a Cabinet maker what 4 years to screw 4 pieces of wood together 
A Builder 4 years to hammer i nails that is now done with a gun  
SURPRISE SURPRISE   

> elkangorito, 
> Do you have a reference to this law? I recall Nev claiming the same but was unable to provide any reference to the law. 
> It seems strange that it would be "illegal" to provide correct advice - I can only think of a couple of exceptional circumstances where it is illegal to provide the correct information (revealing certain people in a court of law, and a method of voting). 
> I'm wondering if this is an insurance issue, or perhaps an industry policy (but not actually a law). What would be purpose be of a law that bans sharing information?

  Try
AIDING AND ABETTING  _The conduct of an agent, employee or other associate of the person are willfully directed or authorized by the person, or if the person aids and abets another person by willfully joining together with that person in the commission of a crime_  
And yes it is an insurance issue and it also comes under duty of care as well as common sense

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## chrisp

> Try
> AIDING AND ABETTING  _The conduct of an agent, employee or other associate of the person are willfully directed or authorized by the person, or if the person aids and abets another person by willfully joining together with that person in the commission of a crime_  
> And yes it is an insurance issue and it also comes under duty of care as well as common sense

  For some reason I get the impression that you are guessing a bit - the "z" spelling gives it away a bit.  :Smilie:   Do you have reference to the law as stated in the Australian electrical regulations?   
Maybe elkangorito will know, he is quite cluely on electrical matters.

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## nev25

> - the "z" spelling gives it away a bit..

  huh

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## Vernonv

Nev, 
Chris in inferring that you pulled the quote from a US site (because of the use of z's instead of s's) and that it does not address the question as to whether or not an ACTUAL law exists that says it is illegal to give correct and factual electrical advice.

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## nev25

> Nev, 
> Chris in inferring that you pulled the quote from a US site (because of the use of z's instead of s's) and that it does not address the question as to whether or not an ACTUAL law exists that says it is illegal to give correct and factual electrical advice.

  Yes I cut and pasted the meaning of Aiding And Abetting
I'm sure the meaning is the same in Australian Law 
Google is your friend

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## tricky4000

I found the Australian version guys; 
The conduct of an agent, employee or other associate of the bloke are willfully directed or authoriSed by the bloke, or if the bloke aids and abets another bloke by willfully joining together with that bloke in the commission of a crime 
Hope that assists.
Tricks

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## nev25

And I found the Rapper Version  
The conduct of an agent, employee or other associate of bro are willfully directed or authoriZed by the bro, or if the bro aids and abets another bro by willfully joining together with that bro in the commission of a crime

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## chrisp

Nev, 
I think you are over generalising and selectively interpreting the law. 
Do you think I'd be breaking the law if I made factual statements such as:  "If you don't ease up on the accelerator when driving, you can  exceed the speed limit." 
"If you take a loaded gun and fire it at someone you'll have a good chance of seriously injuring them or killing them."If so, maybe you should call the police and have me arrested for aiding and abetting  :Smilie:  
As I said, please provide a serious reference to where in the law/regulations it says you can not give electrical advice.

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## nev25

Around and around and around we go again 
Get over it

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## chrisp

> Around and around and around we go again 
> Get over it

  Yep.  You make some statement as fact; I ask for clarification; You can't provide facts/evidence;  You state "Get over it"; and around we go again!   :Smilie:

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## barney118

[/QUOTE][quote=nev25;751549]WOW a butcher by trade
And I suppose it took you a 4 year apprenticeship to learn what most housewife do every night of the week CUT MEAT 
And a got a recreation pilot certificate 
WOW I can takeoff and land planes on Microsoft FSX very well how many hours of training did to take you
And yes I have read BAK Book   I agree Elkangarito, another silly exaggeration of the issue. The point being, I have the bits of paper to allow me to attend the smoking ceromony and spent the 4 years each on 2 trades to allow me to hold a smoking ceromony, but you are only as good as your master has shown you and your skills and abilities to take them to another level. Being able to interpret/read and understand, use common sense is more important than recieving the piece of paper, I could have quite easily knocked over each of these trades in 1-2 years for the theory and taken out the areas that was nice to know.   There are guidelines and someones percieved no of hours to be able to recieve the piece of paper, but they would not have experienced all facets of thier trade in this time but known about some of them or know where to find out more.   Like recieving my drivers licence , I wasn't tested if I could change a tyre, I had to be able to take some one for a drive and do a 3 point turn and reverse park before attending the smoking ceremony.  Each trade has the applicable laws, I suppose your missus cut her finger off you can sew it back on (maybe), If you crash in Microsoft FSX then you can restart the computer, if you crash your car then you get the tradesmen to make it better. If I choose to join some wires, cut timber and join it, then the risk is on me that there is a possibility the house can burn or fall down.  I dont think anyone is taking the p@ss , thats the reason for the forum to share from experience to prevent a mistake being costly or otherwise, or to understand how something should look in the perfect world.  As one of my old masters once said " if you have never made a mistake you have never made anything" There are those that are willing to admit and learn and those that give trades people a bad reputation.   Thats why they call them long things on the BBQ "mystery bags"

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## pharmaboy2

> Yes I cut and pasted the meaning of Aiding And Abetting
> I'm sure the meaning is the same in Australian Law 
> Google is your friend

  aiding an abetting applies for the criminal law, and not to nefarious regulations.  further joining together in commissioning a crime, in this instance would need to involve (even if it was covered which it isnt) actual help to complete the crime - the provision of information or indeed training isnt  help - otherwise firearms dealers could be charged with aiding and abetting  murder. 
perhaps there's a law somewhere that says "conspiring to injure the ETU's monopoly on self serving stupidity"?  :Smilie:  
The cold hard truth is, there is no law, not criminal, not statute, not common, that prevents the issuance of information, just an old wives tale that has gripped some parts of the electrical trades industry, probably at the dishonest promotion of the ETU (its possibly just incompetence)

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## Smurf

I note that my local Caltex servo has a sign warning that petrol is flammable so no smoking and turn off the engine when using the pumps.  
Now, if I take that idea that petrol is flammable and use it to commit a crime of arson then are Caltex going to be in trouble for having told me that petrol is flammable?  
Or will I be the one needing a lawyer because I'm the one who committed the crime? 
I'm sure that a big company such as Caltex would have worked out things like this long ago and wouldn't have the sign up if doing so was likely to see them charged with arson.

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## Ashore

> I note that my local Caltex servo has a sign warning that petrol is flammable so no smoking and turn off the engine when using the pumps.  
> Now, if I take that idea that petrol is flammable and use it to commit a crime of arson then are Caltex going to be in trouble for having told me that petrol is flammable?  
> Or will I be the one needing a lawyer because I'm the one who committed the crime? 
> I'm sure that a big company such as Caltex would have worked out things like this long ago and wouldn't have the sign up if doing so was likely to see them charged with arson.

   Maybe but they don't give you advice on the forum where you can be identified , nope i'm not saying wheather petrol's flamable or not, Big Brother the electricial super puter is monitoring our every word and if I aid or abet anyone why i'll be in court tomorrow cause the way the current law is I'de be charged and I've Googled it so It must be Right  :No:

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## racingtadpole

Will you lot give it a rest. 
Someone has asked a question a couple of others have tried to answer it and the rest is tedious bullsh*t that isnt required. :Doh:

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## elkangorito

My comments in blue.   

> elkangorito, 
> Do you have a reference to this law?  I recall Nev claiming the same but was unable to provide any reference to the law. 
> It seems strange that it would be "illegal" to provide correct advice - I can only think of a couple of exceptional circumstances where it is illegal to provide the correct information (revealing certain people in a court of law, and a method of voting). 
> I'm wondering if this is an insurance issue, or perhaps an industry policy (but not actually a law).  What would be purpose be of a law that bans sharing information?

  Chrisp, you are correct (I think). I do not know of any law that prohibits me form giving advice. You are also correct in assuming that my comments were made as a result of insurance problems. Since Australia is now Amstralia or Ausmerica, where everybody sues each other at the drop of a hat, I am hesitant to give out advice on sensitive matters.
In a nutshell, I concede. I do not know of any law that prohibits people from giving electrical advice.    

> WOW a butcher by trade
> And I suppose it took you a 4 year apprenticeship to learn what most housewife do every night of the week CUT MEAT 
> And a got a recreation pilot certificate 
> WOW I can takeoff and land planes on Microsoft FSX very well how many hours of training did to take you
> And yes I have read BAK Book   I agree Elkangarito, another silly exaggeration of the issue.  The point being, I have the bits of paper to allow me to attend the smoking ceromony and spent the 4 years each on 2 trades to allow me to hold a smoking ceromony, but you are only as good as your master has shown you and your skills and abilities to take them to another level. Being able to interpret/read and understand, use common sense is more important than recieving the piece of paper, I could have quite easily knocked over each of these trades in 1-2 years for the theory and taken out the areas that was nice to know.    There are guidelines and someones percieved no of hours to be able to recieve the piece of paper, but they would not have experienced all facets of thier trade in this time but known about some of them or know where to find out more.

    Hi Barney. I generally agree with you although I do think that education (in this regard) tries to account for all types of learners...some are fast & some are slow.  
I would suggest that "we" (all of us) give our advice as we see fit. If we can't give constructive advice, perhaps we should give none at all? 
From another point of view, Australia like so many other "developed" countries, has become a "nanny" country. I believe the only way to combat this is by passive resistance (not measured in Ohms). From now on, I will be willing to give advice that I see fit, to all & sundry regardless of any bloody law, perceived law or idiot insurance issues. It follows that all who decide to take my advice, do so at their own risk. 
I believe that the only way to end this bickering is to go against the "regulatory" ideal, which means "educate instead of alienate". Chrisp, you are correct in this regard...1000%.

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## elkangorito

> Hi,
> Wondering what the regulations are in relation to ceiling wiring and insulation batts. I have read different conflicting advice and am not sure what the correct way is to mix wiring and insulation. 
> Thanks
> Greg

  Greg,
I hope this finally answers your question & I also hope that you are not too peeved with us pedantic lot  :Redface: . 
If you have AS/NZS 3000:2007, please note table C5. I must advise that this part of the Standard is "Informative" (not law) & that an absolute answer can be obtained from AS3008.1. However, by adhering to the recommendations of Table C5, you will satisfy the Standard(s). 
Firstly, you will only be concerned with lighting &/or power circuits. Other circuits are a different matter. 
For two-core and earth flat cable (TPS), the following applies for 1.5mm squared cable "*completely surrounded in thermal insulation*".
1] the protective device shall be rated at no more than 10 Amps. 
Alternatively, if you wished to get a typical lighting circuit current rating of 16 Amps, you could upgrade the cable to 2.5mm squared. This means that your "protective device" (circuit breaker) protecting this cable, can be no more than 16 Amps.   
For two-core and earth flat cable (TPS), the following applies for 2.5mm squared cable "*completely surrounded in thermal insulation*".
1] the protective device shall be rated at no more than 16 Amps. 
Alternatively, if you wished to get a typical power circuit current rating of 25 Amps, you could upgrade the cable to 6mm squared. This means that your "protective device" (circuit breaker) protecting this cable, can be no more than 25 Amps. 
In either case, I would strongly suggest labelling the appropriate circuit breaker legend in your switchboard to indicate that certain circuit breakers have been derated due to thermal insulation. 
I did not cover "*partially surrounded in thermal insulation*", which has different values.

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## barney118

Elkangorito, 
Agree, this forum is meant to be informative and allow everyone to learn, be able to communicate using the right terminology of the trade.
As a general rule I asked a sparky at work that 1.5mm for lighting and 2.5mm for powerpoints, how does this sound? Does that mean (if the power is supplied through the roof that the 2.5 and 1.5 circuts go all the way back to the meter box? And I can do a check to see if there is any sus extra power points installed on a 1.5mm lighting circut?
When the sparky installed my new circut for my swimming pool he wired 4 core and earth back to the box as he had to de rate the cable because of the distance from the meter box. Its a 16A earth leakage switch on it, if I were looking at putting some extra power to the pool would they run the power from the powerpoints installed (piggy back) and not have to go back to the box? Or would they put in a junction box to make the circut neater?
I notice also in the meter box there is a 20A ELS installed that states fridge freezer what would I expect here. 
I am considering drawing my house circuts to understand what is on them, which should be good practice when you buy a house you can evaluate the circuts. 
One last matter, the downstairs area of my house which I will turn into rooms has a lot of single wiring to lights and double switched (for a sensor light) and looks really messy (because of volume) I dont need the sensor light anymore, so I was looking at some time in the future pulling this all out and starting fresh, so by tracing the source of the circut is important to know where to start from on the downstairs area.

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## chrisp

> "educate instead of alienate"

   :2thumbsup:

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## 2x4

well done   :brava:

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## Doc0055

So when I finish insulating my roof space (some bats are slipped under wires) it would be a good idea to get an electrician to check if any circuits need to be derated.

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## elkangorito

As usual, my comments in blue.   

> Elkangorito, 
> Agree, this forum is meant to be informative and allow everyone to learn, be able to communicate using the right terminology of the trade.
> As a general rule I asked a sparky at work that 1.5mm for lighting and 2.5mm for powerpoints, how does this sound? For most situations, this is correct.  
> Does that mean (if the power is supplied through the roof that the 2.5 and 1.5 circuts go all the way back to the meter box?  They should do so. There are few valid reasons why cable size in domestic installations should be changed on one circuit i.e. a decrease in cable size.  
> And I can do a check to see if there is any sus extra power points installed on a 1.5mm lighting circut? I'm not sure I understand this question.  
> When the sparky installed my new circut for my swimming pool he wired 4 core and earth back to the box as he had to de rate the cable because of the distance from the meter box. Is this 3 phase? It was obviously derated due to voltage drop.  Its a 16A earth leakage switch on it, if I were looking at putting some extra power to the pool would they run the power from the powerpoints installed (piggy back) and not have to go back to the box? Or would they put in a junction box to make the circut neater? You need to be a little more specific when you say "extra power to the pool". What will be the extra load?  
> I notice also in the meter box there is a 20A ELS installed that states fridge freezer what would I expect here. I take it you mean an RCD (earth leakage). I don't fully understand your question.    I am considering drawing my house circuts to understand what is on them, which should be good practice when you buy a house you can evaluate the circuts. 
> One last matter, the downstairs area of my house which I will turn into rooms has a lot of single wiring to lights and double switched (for a sensor light) and looks really messy (because of volume) I dont need the sensor light anymore, so I was looking at some time in the future pulling this all out and starting fresh, so by tracing the source of the circut is important to know where to start from on the downstairs area. Are you asking a question? If so, what is your question?

   

> So when I finish insulating my roof space (some bats are slipped under wires) it would be a good idea to get an electrician to check if any circuits need to be derated.

  Generally speaking, if a cable or wire is surrounded by thermal insulation for no more than about 1 metre in its entire length, there is not a problem. If the cables have been clipped to the top of rafters etc, one could assume that the cable may not need to be derated.
If I were you, I'd stick my head in the roof space & make sure that all cables are not buried in thermal insulation. If any section/length of cable is buried for more than a metre, I'd be looking to doing something about it. 
There is a shortcut to this "roof space" situation. Simply derate the cable size from the beginning...that is, all lighting circuits will be 2.5mm squared (16 Amp breaker) & all power circuits will be 6mm squared (25 Amp breaker). This will cover any future "thermal insulation" problem. The material cost will increase but the labour rate should remain unchanged.

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## Doc0055

Thanks for that info Elkangorito. 
Cheers

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## Bloss

Most queries about this relate to retrofitting of thermal insulation in existing and that circumstance does not lend itself to post fitting of upgraded wiring. That's what my focus was in the earlier post. The answer is to get someone who knows (ie: a sparky) to look at the situation and offer the solution. 
In a retrofitted house what you can do yourself is limited by how much detail you know about the wiring. You could safely de-rate GPO circuits with circuit breakers - which you can do yourself, but unless you know the existing wire size you would be guessing - not a smart way to deal with electricity. If you do know the cable size and rating then you could go ahead and replace fuses with breakers and existing breakers with lower rated ones based on the information in this thread. 
BTW - there is just one law that makes it illegal to give advice about an act that itself is not illegal - suicide. So an individual cannot be charged with anything if they attempt suicide (and of course if they succeed it's a moot point), but it is illegal to provide information about it in any form or to assist in any way.

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## Terrian

> Around and around and around we go again 
> Get over it

  we all would if you would be so kind as to supply a link to this law.

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## nev25

Id8

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## Master Splinter

> Id8

  I take it that's Nev-speak for "I can't because it doesn't exist so I'll just name call instead"

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## nev25

> I take it that's Nev-speak for "I can't because it doesn't exist so I'll just name call instead"

  No just a bit tired of the personal attacks and sledging 
Witch incidentally is suppose to a against the forum rules but the PW moderator don't seem to care 
But then again no one on the forum seems to care about the safety of other

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## Ashore

No mate we all care about safety its just your interpertation and tunnel vision that needs adjustment , you recently asked questions about concrete with the opinion that if you did it wrong no one would be killed when it was pointed out that if it was wrong and a wall gave way then in fact someone could be killed you decided that wasn't a valid point 
 You want everyone to follow all and every rule concerning your trade but other trades  :No: 
And before you have a shot at the mods make sure you didn't throw the first stone, some of your attacks , the latest Id8 for example is that not a personal attack , the mods here are the most even handed I have struck and do a damm fine job so before you get too critical re-read your own posts and just look at what you have been alowed to get away with   :Cool:

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## nev25

> No mate we all care about safety its just your interpertation and tunnel vision that needs adjustment , you recently asked questions about concrete with the opinion that if you did it wrong no one would be killed when it was pointed out that if it was wrong and a wall gave way then in fact someone could be killed you decided that wasn't a valid point 
> You want everyone to follow all and every rule concerning your trade but other trades 
> And before you have a shot at the mods make sure you didn't throw the first stone, some of your attacks , the latest Id8 for example is that not a personal attack , the mods here are the most even handed I have struck and do a damm fine job so before you get too critical re-read your own posts and just look at what you have been alowed to get away with

  NO try for instance www.whirlpool.net.au the first sign of anyone asking about doing anything illegal the thread is closed 
Is that the way it should be????? 
You believe what you want to believe
Its your funeral sunshine

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## Ashore

[quote=nev25;751841
You believe what you want to believe
Its your funeral sunshine[/quote]
And you arn't abusive 
BTW my name isn't sunshine , and I will believe what I want , but I usually base my beliefs on facts 
This forum was set up by a bloke trying to give a little bit back , he had made money from the industry and though he never pushes his products to the detriment of others he has maintained proberly one of the best DYI sites on the net and if the mods here don't follow your line of thought then I would suggest to you that perhaps you are at fault and not the moderators here for they have given you a lot of slack nev25 ( note I used the handle you use here and didn't use what could be a derogative spur of the moment name )   :Biggrin:

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## Ashore

Nev25 I just looked at the link you posted http://www.whirlpool.net.au/ 
My question is do you just cut and paste at random, what did that page have to do with anything I posted , or is this just another adiding and abeting cut and post to try and cloud the issue when you are wrong and just can't admit it  :Rolleyes:

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## Terrian

> I take it that's Nev-speak for "I can't because it doesn't exist so I'll just name call instead"

  apparently.

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## Terrian

> No just a bit tired of the personal attacks and sledging

  If you are going to proclaim something as law you need to back up the statement with fact, not hearsay.   

> Witch incidentally is suppose to a against the forum rules but the PW moderator don't seem to care

  Maybe this forum is not for you then.   

> But then again no one on the forum seems to care about the safety of other

  rubbish.

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## chuth77

> Id8

   :Doh: 
I'm not sure I've seen that Australian Standard... 
Can anybody point me in the right direction....

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## president_ltd

> NO try for instance www.whirlpool.net.au

  not a valid comparison. 
i'd hazard a guess that the average age of a kid on whirlpool is about 13.  thankfully the average age of a renovator or tradie is a bit older than that.  :Smilie:  
we can be adults here.
nev, i respect your posts & your knowledge, i agree on some requests folks are asking for things they shouldn't be doing themselves - but i think you can be a bit heavy handed sometimes. 
hope you have a good break over xmas/new years. 
cheers.

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## 2x4



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## benja

[quote=Master Splinter;751379].  
However, the book says (my emphasis): 
3.4 CURRENT-CARRYING CAPACITY
3.4.1 General
Every conductor shall have a current-carrying capacity, in accordance
with the AS/NZS 3008.1 series, not less than the current to be carried
by the conductor.
In determining the required current-carrying capacity, provision shall be
made for *reasonably foreseeable changes to external influences, such as
the installation of thermal insulation in ceiling spaces and walls.* 
Problem with that is its from the current (read new) standard, and the old one didnt have much about that kind of thing. In fact, the new 2008 standard it the first one to refer to clearances for downlights, and the requirements thereof. These days, a sparky SHOULD issue a letter of completion, telling the home owner his responsibilities, such as not derating any cables (dumbing it down for the lowest common denominator), and testing RCD's monthly etc. The reason most sparkies get away with just chucking wires through the shortest and most convenient route is that little phrase "reasonably forseeable". Is it reasonably forseeable that someone in a hot/ cold climate will insulate their house? Not necessarily. Touche. 
Cheers
Benja

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## AIRMAN

> But then again no one on the forum seems to care about the safety of other

  
Wouldn't making people as informed as possible be the best way of making sure they are safe. The govt take's the same approach with heroin users in the form of suppling clean needles and safe areas for them to shoot up. They know these needles will be used for illegal purposes but they also know that if they don't supply them with the proper tools they need they are still going to do it and it will be in a unsafe way. The way I see it, if someone comes on here asking for advice they aren't going to not do it because you said they can't, they are still going to do it, therefore the best way to ensure their saftey is to provide them with as much infomation as you can to make sure they know how to do the job properly. 
But in saying that, I still fully understand your veiw point of the legality and liability issues that come with giving advice on how to commit a crime on a public forum, there's nothing in it for you so way take the risk.

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## Terrian

ok, a serious question.
the time has come to insulate this here weatherboard house. 
so off come the boards, replace those that need replacing, sand, prime, paint, fit wall batts, sisalation, nail the boards back up. 
the question, what to do with the insulation batts where there are power points?
should put in a noggin above & below the power point to keep the insulation away from the rear of the power point ??

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## nev25

> . 
> the question, what to do with the insulation batts where there are power points?
> should put in a noggin above & below the power point to keep the insulation away from the rear of the power point ??

  Unless the Insulation is electrically conductive I cannot see why you would have to

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## Terrian

> Unless the Insulation is electrically conductive I cannot see why you would have to

  pretty much standard fiberglass batts is all I am looking at.
ta for the reply.

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## anawanahuanana

OK, leading on from that, this is a serious question (!).
Please note: I am not trying to start a fight, argument, pisstaking session or otherwise. Just want an answer to something that occurred to me. 
If I was to remove the weatherboard from my house to install insulation (or whatever other reason), would I not possibly end up exposing the back side of the GPOs? If so, do I have to call an Electrician to remove the boards? If not, what is the difference between removing the board from outside and exposing the live terminals at the back of the GPO, and undoing the securing screws the GPO from the inside, and thereby possibly exposing the live terminals, which is not allowed to be done by someone who isn't a licensed lecco? I thought that an unlicensed person was not allowed to carry out any work which could expose possibly live terminals (as per a previous thread). 
Interested to know what people think. :Confused: 
Cheers.

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## Terrian

completely different, in taking off the boards you are not touching the gpo.

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## elkangorito

> ok, a serious question.
> the time has come to insulate this here weatherboard house. 
> so off come the boards, replace those that need replacing, sand, prime, paint, fit wall batts, sisalation, nail the boards back up. 
> the question, what to do with the insulation batts where there are power points?
> should put in a noggin above & below the power point to keep the insulation away from the rear of the power point ??

  As long as the insulation does not interfere with the *wiring* for a distance greater than about 1 metre (wiring length), there shouldn't be a problem. If it is, it will be classified as "Partially surrounded in thermal insulation" according to AS3000:2007.
Thermal insulation around a GPO should not be considered hazardous unless the insulation is conductive (as Nev said) or flammable. To my way of thinking, this includes the ingress of water.

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## Ashore

> As long as the insulation does not interfere with the *wiring* for a distance greater than about 1 metre .

  And you so good at the regulations where does it say *ABOUT, * regulations that use figures such as about  :Fisch: , guess it takes 4 years of just about to know when enough is enough and about enough is ok as long as you twist the right way :Rolleyes:

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## elkangorito

> My comments in blue. I believe that the only way to end this bickering is to go against the "regulatory" ideal, which means "educate instead of alienate". Chrisp, you are correct in this regard...1000%.

   

> And you so good at the regulations where does it say *ABOUT, * regulations that use figures such as about , guess it takes 4 years of just about to know when enough is enough and about enough is ok as long as you twist the right way

  Forgiving your remark about "4 years etc etc", are you suggesting that 980mm cable length is within the limits & that 1020mm is outside of the limits & therefore unacceptable? I would think that a man with your electrical experience would understand these things...especially since you state that you were an engineer.
In regard to cable length buried within insulation & since you're an engineer, I'm sure you can appreciate the "average" or "about", since no installation is EXACTLY to any specification.

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## Vernonv

I think it's great that Elkango has seen the light (pun intended  :Biggrin: ) and is sharing his knowledge and trying to educate. 
You deserve a greenie ...  :2thumbsup:

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## Ashore

> , are you suggesting that 980mm cable length is within the limits & that 1020mm is outside of the limits & therefore unacceptable?.

  I'm not suggesting anything , you are the one using the term about  :Rolleyes:

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## .RC.

This forum is hosted in the US, so is subject to US laws not Aus laws...So we can post anything so long as it does not contravene any US laws...Incidentally in the US home builders can take a short course in electrical work and wire their own house, and their system is more complicated than ours with their houses having both 220V split phase and 110V single phase.. 
The last electrician I got out to do some work charged me $120 an hour plus travel, which I consider quite an excessive amount for a job that required nothing more then a hammer, electric drill and screwdriver..  Basic home electrical work is not hard and does not require four years of theory/practical skills.... 
Also it is absurd that home owners cannot even run data cables themselves....

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## nev25

> This forum is hosted in the US, so is subject to US laws not Aus laws...So we can post anything so long as it does not contravene any US laws.......

  Splitting hairs are we
And how do you know where its hosted   

> Incidentally in the US home builders can take a short course in electrical work and wire their own house, and their system is more complicated than ours with their houses having both 220V split phase and 110V single phase.. 
> ....

  This has been discussed in length elsewhere
And it was IMO and many others to be not financially viable   

> The last electrician I got out to do some work charged me $120 an hour plus travel, which I consider quite an excessive amount for a job that required nothing more then a hammer, electric drill and screwdriver.. Basic home electrical work is not hard and does not require four years of theory/practical skills.... 
> ....

  Maybe you should have got quotes
No point sooking on here   

> Also it is absurd that home owners cannot even run data cables themselves....

  Once again We all here what you are saying 
But sooking on here isn't going to change things 
You can go do an cabling course if you want
But as Ive just said it wouldn't be Financially via just to do a few jobs around the house

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## chrisp

> Incidentally in the US home builders can take a short course in electrical work and wire their own house

  .RC., 
I'd be interested to hear some more details of the of the courses that can be done in the States.  Do you have any web links giving details of the courses and what work these courses enable the home owner to do? 
BTW, welcome to the forum  :Smilie:

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## chrisp

> But sooking on here isn't going to change things

  I think it might be the start of some changes.  I think the discussions we have here highlight the very restrictive rules we have here, and that other countries have more relaxed rules and better safety outcomes. 
Maybe a few more readers will realise the rules are there to protect the industry and not the general public. 
The more people who realise that these rules are not in their interest, the harder it will be for the industry to try and bring in more oppressive rules.

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## .RC.

> Splitting hairs are we
> And how do you know where its hosted

  A little browser add on tells me where the website I am viewing is located..    

> Maybe you should have got quotes
> No point sooking on here

  Not everyone lives in an area where there is a multitude of electricians to choose from...This is the only electrician in the area and he charges accordingly.

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## Terrian

> And how do you know where its hosted

  http://www.websiteoutlook.com/www.renovateforum.com

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## nev25

> This is the only electrician in the area and he charges accordingly.

  
So whats the problem

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## elkangorito

Comments in blue.   

> This forum is hosted in the US, so is subject to US laws not Aus laws...So we can post anything so long as it does not contravene any US laws. What laws are you talking about? 
> Incidentally in the US home builders can take a short course in electrical work and wire their own house, and their system is more complicated than ours with their houses having both 220V split phase and 110V single phase. Not according to a website I know. From what I have read in the recent past, American DIYers can pay for a special (& temporary) electrical DIY license (no training required). This is done under the proviso that all work must be checked, tested & "signed off" by a qualified person. The website is:
> "http://www.diychatroom.com/"  
> The last electrician I got out to do some work charged me $120 an hour plus travel, which I consider quite an excessive amount for a job that required nothing more then a hammer, electric drill and screwdriver..  Basic home electrical work is not hard and does not require four years of theory/practical skills.... 
> Also it is absurd that home owners cannot even run data cables themselves....

   

> So whats the problem

  I agree with you Nev.
He may be the only guy for hundreds (or even thousands) of kilometres. As such, the population may be small & thus his clientel may be few. One thing is for sure; if he does a bad job, he won't survive very well. 
And as per usual, if one is not happy with a tradesman in any way (this includes his charges), one can always contact the Dept Of Fair Trading.

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## .RC.

It's easy to see the people who are defending their industry from competition...

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## Terrian

> Not according to a website I know. From what I have read in the recent past, American DIYers can pay for a special (& temporary) electrical DIY license (no training required). This is done under the proviso that all work must be checked, tested & "signed off" by a qualified person.  The website is:
> "http://www.diychatroom.com/"

   
I do notice that electricians thre seem to be more than happy to help, give instructians about how to do an electrical job  :Smilie:  
"http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=34602"    

> He may be the only guy for hundreds (or even thousands) of kilometres. As such, the population may be small & thus his clientel may be few.

   So that makes over charging fine ?
If it was petrol it would be called price gouging  :Smilie:

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## nev25

> I do notice that electricians thre seem to be more than happy to help, give instructians about how to do an electrical job

  Yes because it LEGAL to DIY electrical work over there where its NOT In Australia    

> So that makes over charging fine ? If it was petrol it would be called price gouging

  NO its called survival and feeding the family  
Who said anything about over charging   

> This is the only electrician in the area and he charges accordingly.

  
Imagine what it would cost to get an Electrical inspector to inspect your DIY electrical work

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## Terrian

> Yes because it LEGAL to DIY electrical work over there where its NOT In Australia

  and the forum is located in the U.S.   

> NO its called survival and feeding the family

  Maybe he ought to have thought of that before he set up shop in some out of the way place.   

> Who said anything about over charging

  .RC.   

> Imagine what it would cost to get an Electrical inspector to inspect your DIY electrical work

  $100, no travel time charge.

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## nev25

> and the forum is located in the U.S.  
> Maybe he ought to have thought of that before he set up shop in some out of the way place.  
> .RC.   
> $100, no travel time charge.

  Mate you post makes no sence at all 
Anyway 
This is getting way off the origanal post of  
Electrical Wiring and Ceiling insulation

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## Terrian

> Mate you post makes no sence at all

  makes complete sens when taken in context.

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## .RC.

Well this morning I had to fix a seized electric motor on my grandmothers roof mounted evaporative air conditioner...This involved opening up the control box and disconnecting the wiring so the 240V motor could be removed....Upon connecting up the wires again I had to look over my shoulder half expecting to see the police driving up the driveway ready to charge me with doing electrical work without the appropriate bit of paper.. 
They have not arrived yet, the sky has not fallen and no baby seals died from me doing this horrendous crime against humanity.

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## olfella

> The last electrician I got out to do some work charged me $120 an hour plus travel, which I consider quite an excessive amount for a job that required nothing more then a hammer, electric drill and screwdriver..  Basic home electrical work is not hard and does not require four years of theory/practical skills.... 
> Also it is absurd that home owners cannot even run data cables themselves....

  Ever considered he has overheads as well? Like workers comp, insurance, paying his vehicle off, paying for the upkeep of his licence, buying that hammer, electric drill and on and on. Another consideration is if something was to go wrong and you claimed against your home insurance, I am sure they would like to know if you had any work done by an unlicensed tradesman.  With the data cabling, can you imagine the network surviving if eveyone had open slather in what and how they connected to it?  
Rules are rules for a reason.

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