# Forum Home Renovation Paving  Paving with old red bricks

## Ben (TM)

G'day. 
Total paving noob and about to have a go at about 50m2 in three different sections at my place. All will be pedestrian only over a fairly sandy soil. I think I have the subsurface prep sorted out - planning on using 100mm road base compacted to 75mm, then 25-50mm washed sand to bed the bricks in.  *Question 1*
I have about a thousand red bricks that I pulled out a chimney that I took out in a reno about a year ago. If my thinking that there is about 50 bricks/m2 I should need about another thousand?  *Question 2*
Given that the bricks are reasonably irregular (rough) what is the optimum spacing? *
Question 3*
Related to question 2 I imagine - what is the better approach to locking the bricks once they are laid - pave-lok or grout them in?  
I like the look of grouted red bricks, but I imagine that the spacing would have to be wider for this? Am I better to go with the low tech sweeping in of pave-lok as an ameteur?  *Question 4*
I'm kind of hoping not to have to hire a brick saw to keep cost down. what is the best patter to use? I was thinking a stretcher edge course and then the rest at 90 degrees to this. 
I have a week off work in about 4 weeks, so I am madly trying to learn as much as I can between now and then. There will no doubt be more questins, but this should get me going.  I'm hoping that week should be long enough to get the job done from start to finish. The excavation is going to suck as I'll have to do it all by hand - the big disadvantage in using bricks  :Mad:  
Thanks in advance.
Cheers

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## varpy

I'd be inclined to avoid mess and potential heartbreak by not grouting. A bit of permeability is a good thing on the landscape IMHO. I've not used pave-loc so can't comment on that and being a bit of a slacker I've just used the washed sand (provided it is not too coarse) for sweeping into the bricks then wacking it with a bit of carpet underneath the wacker.  
A member here (PlannedLscape) that seems to know his onions uses triple washed sand. Whatever you go with make sure it is dry before sweeping in. I'd go with a gap of about 2/3 mm. The irregularities in the brick and the mortar dags tend to give you this as you lay anyways. 
A bolster will cut a brick. Not always where you want it, but with a bit of practice they do ok for that country look. Angles are tricky though and best avoided.  
Good site for all things paving is http://www.pavingexpert.com/. A UK site, but it is comprehensive. Use the site map to navigate around.   :Smilie:

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## zacnelson

Where are you located in Melbourne?  I'm in Altona and I have some recycled reds you might be interested in, should be enough for you to complete your paving 
Regards, 
Zac
0411640228

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## Planned LScape

> G'day. 
> Total paving noob and about to have a go at about 50m2 in three different sections at my place. All will be pedestrian only over a fairly sandy soil. I think I have the subsurface prep sorted out - planning on using 100mm road base compacted to 75mm, then 25-50mm washed sand to bed the bricks in.  *Question 1*
> I have about a thousand red bricks that I pulled out a chimney that I took out in a reno about a year ago. If my thinking that there is about 50 bricks/m2 I should need about another thousand?  *Question 2*
> Given that the bricks are reasonably irregular (rough) what is the optimum spacing? *
> Question 3*
> Related to question 2 I imagine - what is the better approach to locking the bricks once they are laid - pave-lok or grout them in?  
> I like the look of grouted red bricks, but I imagine that the spacing would have to be wider for this? Am I better to go with the low tech sweeping in of pave-lok as an ameteur?  *Question 4*
> I'm kind of hoping not to have to hire a brick saw to keep cost down. what is the best patter to use? I was thinking a stretcher edge course and then the rest at 90 degrees to this. 
> I have a week off work in about 4 weeks, so I am madly trying to learn as much as I can between now and then. There will no doubt be more questins, but this should get me going.  I'm hoping that week should be long enough to get the job done from start to finish. The excavation is going to suck as I'll have to do it all by hand - the big disadvantage in using bricks  
> ...

  If they are standard size (around 230 x 110 x 75mm) you will closer to 38-40 bricks/m², 50 per metre is generally on a wall with thin side to the outside.  
If there is various sizes ($20 says there is) you will have to lay with about a 10mm gap, and use stringlines. Some bricks can vary in size by 10-15mm. Lay your header courses 1st, and if possible work out to a full brick with the border, and then lay paving inside. This way the only cuts you need, are halves, which can be done easy with a hard tonk with a bolster. I find herringbone seems to look best and lock in the strongest. 
Used course washed sand to lay on, then triple washed to fill gaps. 2nd hand bricks have lots of voids with chips etc so the sand will keep falling in when it dries more, but this is good. Once filled run over the lot with a whacker with carpet on the bottom, they lock in pretty tight this way. You will have to top up with more sand as the whacker sends more into the gap. You can add some cement to the sand to make it harder as well, and lightly hose in to set it off.  
If you want hard grout, you will need to lay the paving on mortar, as if you hard grout on sand paving it tends to crack with the bit of give the sand paving has.

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## Ben (TM)

Thanks for the offer on the bricks Zac - if I can work out how to transport them, I'll take you up for sure. 
Planned LScape - I was hoping that you might show up and impart your wisdom and you certainly haven't disappointed.   

> If they are standard size (around 230 x 110 x 75mm) you will closer to 38-40 bricks/m², 50 per meter is generally on a wall with thin side to the outside.

  Brilliant. Less bricks = less money! (not that I'm a tight ar se or anything... :Wink:  )   

> Lay your header courses 1st, and if possible work out to a full brick with the border, and then lay paving inside.

  Should these be laid in a bed of mortar or just haunched in? 
If a bed of mortar, I assume that you would do this after the compacted roadbase and before the sand so that you cna get your levels right? What kind of mortar mix is used? 
If just haunching - do you do this after all of the bricks go down? Also, I assume that I won't need any haunching if my paving is contained? (eg by the side of the house or a fence) Again what sort of mortar mix is recommended.   

> If you want hard grout, you will need to lay the paving on mortar, as if you hard grout on sand paving it tends to crack with the bit of give the sand paving has.

  Grout is off the list - triple washed sand definitely sounds like the go with a little cement :2thumbsup: . How much is a little? Can you get triple washed sand from most garden supplies? I imagine that it would need to be bone dry to 'flow' into the cracks.  
Thanks again for taking the time to respond - I feel like I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

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## Planned LScape

> Thanks for the offer on the bricks Zac - if I can work out how to transport them, I'll take you up for sure. 
> Planned LScape - I was hoping that you might show up and impart your wisdom and you certainly haven't disappointed.   
> Brilliant. Less bricks = less money! (not that I'm a tight ar se or anything... )   
> Should these be laid in a bed of mortar or just haunched in? 
> If a bed of mortar, I assume that you would do this after the compacted roadbase and before the sand so that you cna get your levels right? What kind of mortar mix is used? 
> If just haunching - do you do this after all of the bricks go down? Also, I assume that I won't need any haunching if my paving is contained? (eg by the side of the house or a fence) Again what sort of mortar mix is recommended.   
> Grout is off the list - triple washed sand definitely sounds like the go with a little cement. How much is a little? Can you get triple washed sand from most garden supplies? I imagine that it would need to be bone dry to 'flow' into the cracks.  
> Thanks again for taking the time to respond - I feel like I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

  Glad to be of help mate  :2thumbsup:  
I usually lay all the paving on sand, whack down (but dont go too close to the edge to sink the edge pavers) and then for the haunching scrape away the sand and about 100mm below the roadbase, and fill with concrete. Angle up so it retains the bricks and seals the sand under the pavers, not too high though in case you put turf next to it or it's visible. If there's not much to haunch probably get a few bags of pre-mix conc, or get some raw washed sand, aggregate and cement to make up your own mix.  
You could lay your edges on mortar, but make sure you allow the ones paved on sand to sink about 5-10mm when you compact it. (or pave them last) 
Triple washed should be available everywhere, it's just a more finely graded washed sand. It may be called fine white elsewhere, depends on the supplier and state

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## varpy

> and then for the haunching scrape away the sand and about 100mm below the roadbase, and fill with concrete.

  fuggin ell, but that is some serious friggin haunching Planned!  
I scrape it back to the roadbase then make up a 4 to 1 washed sand/cement/plastiscizer mortar mix, haunch and then tamp with my foot the backfill soil over that then whack the lot while the haunch is still wet. Gotta be careful the soldier course doesn't travel to far with the whacking though. 
...have probably revealed my cowboy credentials here, but it seems to work out ok.   :Smilie:

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## Gooner

Varpy.... Is that a real picture of you? ?

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## Ben (TM)

> Varpy.... Is that a real picture of you? ?

  Might explain the cowboy tendencies?   :Wink:

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## Gooner

Would also explain if he cut up his neighbours and fed them to his dogs  :Biggrin:

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## Planned LScape

> fuggin ell, but that is some serious friggin haunching Planned!  
> I scrape it back to the roadbase then make up a 4 to 1 washed sand/cement/plastiscizer mortar mix, haunch and then tamp with my foot the backfill soil over that then whack the lot while the haunch is still wet. Gotta be careful the soldier course doesn't travel to far with the whacking though. 
> ...have probably revealed my cowboy credentials here, but it seems to work out ok.

  Sometimes the haunching can crack pretty easy then lets the sand out, I tend to just go a tad deeper on the angle. Only uses a shovel of concrete every half metre or so 
The apprentice does the mixing...I only make it look lovely and smooth!

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## varpy

You got an apprentice Planned!?!?! Danged if you aint the real deal!!!! :2thumbsup:  
I had one once.... was forced to horsewhip him upside his damn fool face. Then I shot him dead just to watch him die.....   :Ohyaaa:  
Here yers go Gooner - disco days from my highschool album...the cowdy hat come later....   :Smilie:

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## Terrian

> Sometimes the haunching can crack pretty easy then lets the sand out, I tend to just go a tad deeper on the angle. Only uses a shovel of concrete every half metre or so

  better a little overkill than having to go back and redo the job...   

> The apprentice does the mixing...I only make it look lovely and smooth!

  thats what apprentices are for though  :Smilie: 
(I tried telling my apprentice chippy son that, he threatened to shoot me with his nail gun (which is now my nail gun) )

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## varpy

Varpy gets off horse, removes Colt 45  from holster and approaches forum with hat in hand.... and enquires respectfully  -  
" my worry is that with such a firm degree of haunching aren't you worried that you may have inadvertantly created a pond? Wouldn't the standing water create a few issues?"   :Smilie:

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