# Forum Home Renovation Structural Renovation  Building under, illegal height ?s

## mossy

Sorry I can't seem to get the search option to work for me, so apologise if I've repeated any questions. 
We're planning to build some rooms under our home.  At present measurement is about 3cm short of legal height.  I just read elsewhere that it's illegal to even build any of these rooms at this height and illegal to use them unless we lift the house.  Is that correct? 
I'm sure I've seen other homes with what are called 'utility rooms' built in where height did not meet the 2.40.  Are they illegal, and does the council give approval for this, or are people just breaking the law doing illegal building? 
I spoke to a real estate agent recently who said personally he would not bother to lift the house as it's so expensive not to mention inconvenient. 
We already have a slab under the house so could go ahead, but now rather confused.  Thanks for any help.   :Smilie:

----------


## rhancock

I think its about what you define the room as - I think 'habitable' is the definition - so ours is a rumpus, not a spare bedroom!  3m shouldn't be a problem, though.  You will also need to check the flood levels for your block - ours is only 1.5m above sea level so to 'officially' build under I'd need to raise the house so the new 'ground' level would need to be 2m off the ground - back where it started from! 
Have a look at http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:B...720:pc=PC_2334 http://www.ourbrisbane.com/living/ho...iderations.htm http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:B...1860:pc=PC_224

----------


## Pulse

The building code answers these questions pretty specifically. I think 2.1m is OK for kitchen and bathroom. Less than 2.4 for part of the room is ok for a sloped ceiling eg in an attic extension... 
this is all from memory so check the BCA, 
cheers Pulse

----------


## ausdesign

Minimum ceiling height of habitable rooms 2400 except a kitchen which can be 2100.
As Pulse said for a raked ceiling - but the height must average 2400 or better.
Non habitable rooms -  bathroom, laundry, 'storeroom', wc, hallway, lobby, walk in robe etc 2100 min.

----------


## silentC

Where have you measured to? Is it a timber framed floor or slab? If it's timber framed and you have measured to the bearers, then you could get away with hanging your ceiling lining off the joists and leaving the bearers exposed. 
Nevertheless, I've yet to see a building inspector with a tape measure.  :Wink:  
(I once paid some plasterers to hang a ceiling in a new extension. The bottom chord of the trusses were 2440 from the floor. I told them the finished height had to be minimum 2400. They hung the furring channel with brackets from the truss and obviously couldn't read a tape, so we ended up with 2350 finished height. I spent the whole weekend pulling off roof sheets and reaching down through the trusses to unscrew the hanging brackets, while my Father in law lifted the ceiling from below. We got it back up to 2410. I was so p'ed off when the building inspector didn't even look at the ceiling.)

----------


## davo_scuba

I thought it went on how old the house was ? and what regs were in place at time of council approval.
we have a brick and tile (highset) early 80's but the downstairs is 2370, once i put down new tiles on the floor this will go down to 2350(ish) but still think that this will be OK because at the time of the house being built that was the norm. 
Am I correct in thinking this ?

----------


## silentC

> Am I correct in thinking this ?

  I'm pretty sure that you'll find the BCA requires any new development to comply, even if it's modifications to an existing dwelling. In fact, I believe that under BASIX if you modify an existing dwelling, you're required to bring the whole house up to standard energy efficiency-wise. 
In short, they can't make you tear down your old house because the frame is not up to current specs but they can make sure that anything new you add to it complies.

----------


## ausdesign

The requirement is from finished floor level to finished ceiling level.
If you've got 100mm thick undelay I suppose your in trouble !
If you're trying to do something that's 'illegal', I've heard of people putting on the plans that it is a store room or big cupboard or whatever. Just don't put down that it is a Bedroom. Rumpus romm or any other type of 'habitable' room & then you can build down to 2100.

----------


## davo_scuba

how do they police this ??? 
do building inspectors go round and check what people are doing via anonymous tip offs. 
what sort of fines are we talking about. 
in our stairwell the spacing for the banister was 140 mm wide which under current laws is illegal see pic,
so i riped this out and replaced it with a solid wall and glass top see pic.
if i get a call from an inspector what sort of trouble am i going to be in ???
It needed to be done for safety reasons with a little rug rat who is just walking and another one on the way. (thats my excuse  :Biggrin:  )

----------


## ausdesign

There's no requirement - unless you're doing a major reno - to bring things such as your banister spacing from 140 to 125.
When you submit plans for an extension [such as asked about] you need to meet the requirements of the BCA & this will be checked by the building surveyor initially before the plans are approved & then by the building inspector at the designated inspections.
For a registered builder I think the penalty is up to 10 points or $10,000
For an owner builder [or a registered builder], the fact that the 'dodgy' work has been 'passed' does not relieve them of responsibility & who ever did the work will be liable when / if it goes to court.

----------


## davo_scuba

thanks for the response.
sorry for getting off the subject, I will continue with my reno's and just hope that 2350(ish)  is good enough after all what's 2" between friends  :Wink: 
davo

----------


## ausdesign

It's a common question Davo.
Just remember if your going to sell that the rooms are 'storage rooms', 'wine cellars', 'golf ball lockers' or whatever . . . as long as they're not 'habitable' rooms  :Wink 1:

----------


## mcchaddy

Hi All, 
Having just had my final inspection on the renovations we had done to our house. Me being the owner builder, the inspector went over it with a fine tooth comb. Even measured the gap between the stair treads to make sure they were the right height. I made sure with the a builder friend that everything i had done was legal and met all requirements as specified on the plans. He checked the plans and measure every ceiling height on the rooms that were built down stairs. He made sure they were at least 2.4 for habitable rooms and 2.1 for any other room i.e. store room. Made sure bracing was in the right places and the right amount was used. I had to have every possible certificate you could image available for inspection as well. Trusses, glazing, termite, slab, footings............ 
It's a costly exercise to redo things, like changing ceiling heights etc. I didn't want to take that chance. I'm not sure if it was because i was an onwer builder or the certifiers are getting more strict with building inspections but he was certainly thorough in my case. 
Cheers 
Michael. 
P.s. Everything passed, excepte for one small ant cap/termite barrier issue. Which has been rectified.

----------


## silentC

> I'm not sure if it was because i was an onwer builder or the certifiers are getting more strict with building inspections

  I'd say you were unlucky and got the 1 out of 100 that actually takes time to do a proper inspection. Was he a local council inspector, or did you enlist the services of an inspection company?

----------


## mcchaddy

Hi SilentC, 
He was with a private certification group. All though he was very thorough he was also very fair. I have found a few inspectors to be very arrogant and think all owner builders are dumb and wasting their time. The only time i saw a council inspector was when i had to build over a sewer line and they charged me some ridiculous amount of money for him to say "It looks ok to me" and walk away. 
At least I know i have a house that meets all spec's and have no fear of hiding anything if i do sell someday. 
cheers 
Michael.

----------


## silentC

I've had a final inspection done as an OB in Sydney and I used the council's inspector. The guy who came out looked about 18 years old (OK, probably 22). All he wanted to see was that we had installed smoke detectors and that we had a glazing certificate. He looked at the downpipes and asked if they were connected to the storm water drains, I said yes and that was it. He had a copy of the plan in his hand but he never looked at it. 
Yes you're probably right, at least you know that he's been thorough. 
Haven't had the final done on the current house yet, will be a fair way off yet. We're using the council inspector for that too. If I see him with a tape measure in his hand, I will buy myself some ice skates  :Wink:

----------


## ausdesign

One of the 'spin offs' from the introduction of the private certifiers or building surveyors I believe is a better deal across the board & possibly more so for OB's, with more 'affability' as the inspector is more in the mindset of working for you to achieve an outcome. Not that all 'council' inspectors weren't approachable prior to privatisation, but there was times where ' you do it my way sunny jim' was an anticipated result of a confrontation. 
(- It's only early in the week & I have a number of aquaintences & respect for their knowledge within local government so be kind !)

----------


## silentC

I'm quite happy to use the local inspector. We know we have done the job properly and I'd be more than happy for someone to go over it with a fine tooth comb.  
For this bloke though, finer details like ceiling heights don't factor in much to his way of thinking. If it looked low, he would probably ask the question, might even borrow a tape  :Wink:  His big thing was tie down and bracing during the frame inspection. If the ceiling height was 2370 I doubt he would knock it back. It's more about the intention of the code, rather than policing it to the letter. 
But then you get others who would measure it and knock it back if it was 20mm under. They are right according to the book, but whose interests does it serve to make you pull it all down and start again over 20mm? 
But yes, I agree on the whole that taking some of the power away from the local council is ultimately a good thing, even though we have had a good relationship with our local inspectors for years.

----------


## ausdesign

. . . and I think thats probably the crux of it - a good relationship.
He knows your workmanship & you know his particular quirks.
As builders or chippies we all (or I did when building) want to get through an inspection without being bought undone. 
Even though we know it's done right there's always the . . Grahams doing the frame inspection - check that the bracing is spot on, or Davids doing the inspection double check the double stud under the girder truss.
In an owner builder one off situation it's not hard to envisage the building inspector pulling up, opening the file & thinking 'what can I find wrong here' and proceeding to try & find something.
This possibly also holds true for a private certifier to an extent but I still feel that they are, with the open market, more inclined to work with you rather than tell you what you must do to meet their 'quirks' before they'll pass the inspection.
But yes overall I agree with what you said John 
The long & the short of what i'm long windedly trying to say is that possibly from a builders point of view that now if you can't get a rapour with the inspector because he's 'got it in for you' that you now have alternatives that weren't previously available.

----------


## Thommo1974

Hi Everyone, 
I know this thread has been dead for a while, but I've just bougght a Queenslander and want to build rooms in what is currently the Garage and storage. I know that the roof has to be 2.4m to be legal for a habitable room. The place I bought has been lifted in the past (I think) and it is on a decent slab and has metal supports. 
AT the moment from the concrete to the bottom of the floorboards above is approx 2520mm, but then there are the bearers which will bringit down to around 2390mm or so. If I estimate putting a ceiling on (13mm) and carpet (20mm???) the height would be around 2360 mm. 
My inital plans were to either grind back a couple of centrimetres of concrete, or just painting the bottom of the floor boards and have that as the ceiling. 
However, during my research, I came across an article in the Courier Mail from 2006 which talks exclusively about this issue. See below...  _'Inspector Nick Newton and agent Kevin Turner check the ceiling height in a renovated home at Graceville. The level is 2320mm, 80mm shy of the recommended 2400mm but air flow and natural light made it certifiable_ _Another renovated house checked over at Graceville by Nick, owner of AusiSpec, also had a bedroom ceiling height of 2320mm, 80mm less than required, but a certifier did approve it because air flow and natural light were ample.'_ 
My question to you all out there is, has anyone had any rooms below legal height approved as above, and if so, could someone put me in touch with a recommended ceritifier, 
Thanks Heaps 
Thommo

----------


## cherub65

Post a pic if you can

----------


## Thommo1974

Hopefully the attached file works. If my plan is doable, I'd plan on putting some internal walls where the major metal beams are, or at least box them in. 
I know I'd have to put some extra windows in for natural light etc... 
Thanks for the help.

----------


## mattwilliams78

IMHO, I'd be attaching the ceiling lining to the floor joists and then box in those steel beams. That would then be similar to the little bulkhead down to 2100 between the living area and dining area in my place. Maybe the bearers coincide with the internal walls? Shame the steel beam on the left hand side is even lower still but I suspect the the underside of the beam is still >2100mm so you could put a door below it?

----------


## Thommo1974

My plan is to have that lower beam removed and replaced with a pole if required. I will be boxing in those beams. My main concern is that I think that if I put the ceiling directly into the floor joists above, the 13 mm ceiling, combined with carpet below will mean that the total height is a couple of centremetres below 2400 mm, and therefore technically not legal for a habitable room. I'm hoping with some new windows and alright ventilation I could get an approval for less than 2400mm...

----------


## cherub65

Don't think you'll like to hear this but id rip up the concrete and excavate to new levels.
Firstly the existing slab would probably not have a membrane under which will lead to problems later. Also will give more scope to do what you want.

----------


## Thommo1974

Yeah, you're right, I don't want to hear that. If I absolutely have to, I will, but I'm really looking for information on whether anyone out there has actually got approval for lower than 2.4 metre ceilings, with adequate ventilation and natural light...

----------


## Pulse

Why not be upfront with them, explain the situation if they let you, sheet the bottom of the bearers. If they don't then Sheet the bottom of the joists or even spray paint the whole floor white with an airless spray gun. 
It's best to ask before and not just cross fingers on the day... 
Pulse

----------

