# Forum More Stuff Owner Builders Forum  Owner Builder - Sydney - Advice/Perspective needed

## l2oBiN

I have a double garage that is to be converted to a granny flat and a side extension for additional bedroom with ensuite. I have had the full workscope defined and have received several quotes from builders. The quotes have spanned more than double across different builders. Which is eroding my confidence in the whole going with a builder path. Not only do the builders ignore what I want them to quote and setup their own quotes (which usually excludes a good deal of the workscope), but they also seem to charge exorbitant prices for simple things like painting. 
I am now considering proceeding with an owner builder, and was going to ask for your experience/perspective on going down this path. 
 Further, it would be good to understand exactly what workscope am I allowed to carry out myself as an owner builder and what needs to be done by a qualified tradesman? 
Beyond this, which certificates or certifications are required and who would need to provide them?

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## JB1

Do you have council approval? 
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## l2oBiN

Yes. DA approved. Was waiting to decide on the the builder before cc submission.

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## bonazoo

The builder sometimes didn't quote on what you want or try to miss it. So At the first quote it will look good and reasonably. And when you ask for more they can increase the price.

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## l2oBiN

I believe this is the case. On conversation they all come back with sorry I did not include that. Its ridiculous. I feel that I should just go ahead with owner builder and even if it costs me more, I know where the cost has gone into and that the job has been done right. I know its going to take a lot longer.. especially as it would be the first time I am doing something of this scale. Its really the certification that I would like to get my head around and would appr I ate your help with.

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## JB1

Electricity, plumbing, roofing, waterproofing needs to be done by a qualified tradie. 
Everything else can be done by you, but realistically you'll need a carpenter.  
The issue with owner building is that you need good tradies that you can trust. If you don't have good referrals, it really is a mine field.
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## METRIX

> I have a double garage that is to be converted to a granny flat and a side extension for additional bedroom with ensuite. I have had the full workscope defined and have received several quotes from builders. The quotes have spanned more than double across different builders. Which is eroding my confidence in the whole going with a builder path. Not only do the builders ignore what I want them to quote and setup their own quotes (which usually excludes a good deal of the workscope), but they also seem to charge exorbitant prices for simple things like painting. 
> I am now considering proceeding with an owner builder, and was going to ask for your experience/perspective on going down this path. 
>  Further, it would be good to understand exactly what workscope am I allowed to carry out myself as an owner builder and what needs to be done by a qualified tradesman? 
> Beyond this, which certificates or certifications are required and who would need to provide them?

  Not uncommon these days in every field, you would need to clarify what standard of construction is being done, some builders may offer a higher level of finish to others, such as 70x35 untreated frames, vs 90x45 treated, entry level windows with no standard glass and no flyscreens, to better quality windows and glass with flyscreens and locks, 12mm MDF skirtings of minimum size, vs decent sized skirtings of pine, wet area gyprock to ensuite vs full villaboard linings, particleboard flooring in ensuite vs scyon flooring, standard particle board floors vs Termiflor or R-Floor, $25 doors, $5 handles  $100 vanity, $20 taps the list goes on and on. 
Neighbours had multiple quotes to get the same tree cut down, ranged in cost from $3000, $5000, $6000 all the way up to $8000 for the same tree !

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## Bigboboz

> Not uncommon these days in every field, you would need to clarify what standard of construction is being done, some builders may offer a higher level of finish to others, such as 70x35 untreated frames, vs 90x45 treated, entry level windows with no standard glass and no flyscreens, to better quality windows and glass with flyscreens and locks, 12mm MDF skirtings of minimum size, vs decent sized skirtings of pine, wet area gyprock to ensuite vs full villaboard linings, particleboard flooring in ensuite vs scyon flooring, standard particle board floors vs Termiflor or R-Floor, $25 doors, $5 handles  $100 vanity, $20 taps the list goes on and on. 
> Neighbours had multiple quotes to get the same tree cut down, ranged in cost from $3000, $5000, $6000 all the way up to $8000 for the same tree !

  What's the solution?  We have a DA approved but need to get the engineering plans done before talking to builders but I'm leaning towards owner build because it seems too complex to spec the build and get complying and comparative quotes.  Perhaps complex isn't the right word, how do I work out without experience what to ask for? I want a quality build but not break the bank.   
What me and my wife will think is important will not be the same for others, so from a builders perpective they're also guessing. 
Both sides are guessing what the other wants/needs! 
So I'm keen to go owner builder, my wife with a builder.  Is a halfway solution to get a buider to quote to lock up stage? ie pre-fit out 
Then get individual trades for the different finishing parts? Ie where the price can vary dramatically depending on what's chosen?

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## METRIX

> What's the solution?  We have a DA approved but need to get the engineering plans done before talking to builders but I'm leaning towards owner build because it seems too complex to spec the build and get complying and comparative quotes.  Perhaps complex isn't the right word, how do I work out without experience what to ask for? I want a quality build but not break the bank.   
> What me and my wife will think is important will not be the same for others, so from a builders perpective they're also guessing. 
> Both sides are guessing what the other wants/needs! 
> So I'm keen to go owner builder, my wife with a builder.  Is a halfway solution to get a buider to quote to lock up stage? ie pre-fit out 
> Then get individual trades for the different finishing parts? Ie where the price can vary dramatically depending on what's chosen?

  Building anything can be a minefield, if you don't know what to ask for how can you be expected to know you are getting what you want, or what you should be getting
This is where you have to trust the builder is providing the best advice / product, unfortunately like any profession there are good builders and there are bad ones. 
This is where the help of a Project Manager or Building Consultant can help, they can help you decide on what is required and nut out how to get what you want as an end result, your Architect can also help with this but they cost $$$ and from experience are very set in what they want to specify irrespective of cost. 
With any build there are hundreds of decisions that need to be made, many decisions affect other aspects of the build causing a knock on effect, a lot of these decisions need to be made on the spot or work stops. 
Going OB can be a rewarding experience but don't expect it to be easy, chippies and builders will use their years of experience to ensure the process goes as smooth as possible, you need to have good Project Management skills, knowledge and time to make the process as painless as possible. 
A good chippy or builder will have the skills to efficiently deal with any issues you may not notice or not understand the significance of as an OB. 
I have found from Project Managing various builds for clients at various stages of a job they tend to get caught up in small details which cause them to overlook bigger issues as it all becomes a bit overwhelming and time consuming usually ending up putting stress on their family life / bank account. 
You have a few options, once you have the engineering specs you will know what is required for the build regarding any special requirements such as steel, beams etc, this will allow you to get a quote to get the place to lock-up, forgoing any problems that arise along the way during the build (which there will be as there always is). 
I would consider OB as you have the option to do this, contract a builder to get the place to lockup and you concentrate on the fitout, this is probably the least stressful way of doing it.
Bearing in mind there are responsibilities as an OB you will need to taker in regards to insurances / compliance etc which a builder would normally look after, don't worry as thousands of others have done it with successful results.  
If you know what you want inside, the fitout is the most important for you as this is where you put your personal touches on the finished product, depending on the builder they may or may not be interested in dealing with all the customisations, bearing in mind they will be charging you for every decision you make or change. 
If you do all the research / sourcing / supplying of components this will save you considerably on the overall cost and you will get what you want not what the builder wants you to have. 
Bathrooms and kitchens are the killers, these need a lot of planning and sourcing of components BEFORE calling in any trades to start any work in these rooms as these rooms can move quick and mistakes can be costly to rectify. 
Internal fit outs are fairly straight forward, you have insulation, electrical, plaster, doors / trims, painting, floor / window coverings as a basic, bathrooms, laundries and kitchens have a whole set of their own complexities, but can be dealt with in an orderly fashion with a bit of thought and time. 
Most importantly whichever path you take, communication is the number one thing that causes problems, you need to be able to have open and good communication between yourself and your trades. 
The biggest pitfall owners get into is they are emotionally attached to the build and they let emotions get involved in either decisions or expectations, if you can keep these under control the build will go a lot easier.

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## Bigboboz

> Building anything can be a minefield, if you don't know what to ask for how can you be expected to know you are getting what you want, or what you should be getting
> This is where you have to trust the builder is providing the best advice / product, unfortunately like any profession there are good builders and there are bad ones.

  Agreed but it's not as easy to replace a builder than other trades if you're not happy.  So getting the right builder can be hard.  I know plenty of people (friends and colleagues) that have done a build and not one was willing to recommend their builder!  In most cases I think they weren't that bad, just as you say, building is complex and there are many decisions that need to be made plus expectations can differ.   

> This is where the help of a Project Manager or Building Consultant can help, they can help you decide on what is required and nut out how to get what you want as an end result, your Architect can also help with this but they cost $$$ and from experience are very set in what they want to specify irrespective of cost.

  Project manager or Building consultant? Interesting, I hadn't heard of them.  In talking to people who have built, many after talking to the builder have changed the architects plans because it cost too much to build for not much benefit! Even then it still sounded expensive...   

> You have a few options, once you have the engineering specs you will know what is required for the build regarding any special requirements such as steel, beams etc, this will allow you to get a quote to get the place to lock-up, forgoing any problems that arise along the way during the build (which there will be as there always is).

  This is what I'm thinking, get the building quote done to the engineering specs and external finish.  I guess that's the other problem, the engineer needs direction in what way we're looking to do the build. ie brick, timber etc but this touches on cost.  Again, many have commented that the builder spotted many odd design specs from their engineers   

> I would consider OB as you have the option to do this, contract a builder to get the place to lockup and you concentrate on the fitout, this is probably the least stressful way of doing it.
> Bearing in mind there are responsibilities as an OB you will need to taker in regards to insurances / compliance etc which a builder would normally look after, don't worry as thousands of others have done it with successful results.

  Do I need to do OB to do it this way or will builders quote to lock up and act as builder?   

> If you know what you want inside, the fitout is the most important for you as this is where you put your personal touches on the finished product, depending on the builder they may or may not be interested in dealing with all the customisations, bearing in mind they will be charging you for every decision you make or change. 
> If you do all the research / sourcing / supplying of components this will save you considerably on the overall cost and you will get what you want not what the builder wants you to have.

  This is effectively what we did when we reno'd the front of our house.  Did the leg work on sourcing everything and engaged different trades to do the work.  Came across good one and bad ones. I've got a list of contacts to use later if I go OB but it's not complete, particularly a good chippy!   

> Bathrooms and kitchens are the killers, these need a lot of planning and sourcing of components BEFORE calling in any trades to start any work in these rooms as these rooms can move quick and mistakes can be costly to rectify. 
> Internal fit outs are fairly straight forward, you have insulation, electrical, plaster, doors / trims, painting, floor / window coverings as a basic, bathrooms, laundries and kitchens have a whole set of their own complexities, but can be dealt with in an orderly fashion with a bit of thought and time.

  We did a bathroom and managed the materials etc Learnt some thing for next time still but very happy with the result.   

> Most importantly whichever path you take, communication is the number one thing that causes problems, you need to be able to have open and good communication between yourself and your trades. 
> The biggest pitfall owners get into is they are emotionally attached to the build and they let emotions get involved in either decisions or expectations, if you can keep these under control the build will go a lot easier.

  I made sure I visited the site every morning or at the very least spoke to them every morning.  Even then they have to make calls on the job, sometimes they read it wrong and did not ring but you had to roll with it. 
Thanks for the detailed response, it's been very useful to my thinking. In particular, I'd like to understand the build to lock up option, that sounds very appealing. 
Rob

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