# Forum Contacts & Links Estimating & Quoting  How do I begin a renovation?

## alsocass

Our first home and in need of a renovation. We could survive in it as is for a couple more year, but are busy planning the renovations. 
Hubby (a sparky) wants to do everything himself (where possible, though I am sure we will disagree on where that line in the sand gets drawn  :Biggrin: ). 
My question is where does one beging doing a renovation? 
So far I have a great draft on paper that involves moving several walls, moving the kitchen, adding a bathroom, knocking down an earlier extension and adding a new slightly bigger extension in its place, building a small bedroom in the roof space, replacing the roof, removing the aluminium cladding to reveal the old weatherboard, level the back section of the house and replace a couple of stumps. 
I hardly know where to begin. 
Do we need to get council approval?
Do we need an architect to draw up the plans?
Do we need a builder?
How on earth do we begin to work out what it is all going to cost?
Are their any jobs which must be done by a qualified person?
Are their any jobs which you would advise getting done by a qualified person? 
Gah. Such a massive undertaking!

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## ringtail

Do we need to get council approval?*- yes*
Do we need an architect to draw up the plans? - *not necessarily*
Do we need a builder? - *if hubby wants to do everything himself you will need a owner bulder licence which means you are the builder*
How on earth do we begin to work out what it is all going to cost? -* how long is a piece of string - price a new house per square metre then double it for a renno*
Are their any jobs which must be done by a qualified person?-* all plumbing and electrical and any fire services, asbestos removal - maybe others depending on local laws*
Are their any jobs which you would advise getting done by a qualified person?-* see above*

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## watson

I'll just add a couple of things to what Ringtail said.
Do we need to get council approval?*- yes*
Do we need an architect to draw up the plans? - *not necessarily* *A draughtsman can draw up you ideas*
Do we need a builder? - *if hubby wants to do everything himself you will need a owner bulder licence which means you are the builder*. *Personally, I'd keep him out in the workforce earning....as you'll need it*
How on earth do we begin to work out what it is all going to cost? -* how long is a piece of string - price a new house per square metre then double it for a renno* *Into the great unknown with this one*
Are their any jobs which must be done by a qualified person?-* all plumbing and electrical and any fire services, asbestos removal - maybe others depending on local laws* * Nothing to add except ...Yep*
Are their any jobs which you would advise getting done by a qualified person?-* see above*   :What he said:

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## Black Cat

I would also advise living in the house for at least a year before you start drawing up the plans. That way you will identify the bits that work, and those that don't. When you first move in you come up with all manner of great ideas that later prove to be pointless (don't need doing) or counterproductive (wish I hadn't done that). Only the best concepts survive that first year. Then you will have reduced the amount of work you need to do as well as coming up with a better plan

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## alsocass

> I would also advise living in the house for at least a year before you start drawing up the plans. That way you will identify the bits that work, and those that don't. When you first move in you come up with all manner of great ideas that later prove to be pointless (don't need doing) or counterproductive (wish I hadn't done that). Only the best concepts survive that first year. Then you will have reduced the amount of work you need to do as well as coming up with a better plan

  I agree so much with this one. We have been here for almost 12months so far (and it is my grandparents house) and already our ideas have changed many times. However we have really started to figure out exactly what we love about the house, and what needs to change. It also has given us a chance to fall in love with the character of the house, so we are not so quick to ignore it.

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## alsocass

Do you really need council approval for everything? Or just for big renovations?
How do you know which walls are structural, and which are safe to move? (What I am really asking is - Is this the sort of thing that you can figure out yourself or is it something an engineer/builder/architect/council will tell you?)

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## ringtail

Mmmm, depends on what you are doing but 9 times out of 10 yes you need approval for just about everything. Please dont take this the wrong way but when I read statements like your last sentence, I strongly reccommend that engage professionals to do everything for you, except for electrical and painting. This is not something to be undertaken lightly - lives are at risk

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## alsocass

> Mmmm, depends on what you are doing but 9 times out of 10 yes you need approval for just about everything. Please dont take this the wrong way but when I read statements like your last sentence, I strongly reccommend that engage professionals to do everything for you, except for electrical and painting. This is not something to be undertaken lightly - lives are at risk

  Not taken the wrong way at all. I am putting on the 'confused/unsure wife' hat and doing all the research. My husband is handy and has lots of experience (His dad is a retired builder, his brother a carpenter turn concreter, he is a sparky and so has loads of experience on and around job sites) so of course is very keen to do as much as possible. He is also hoping to get his Dad down for a stint, but his Dad is getting on in years. I am sure if you envisioned a Tradie who was pretty sure he could handly most stuff (thus saving money) and a wife who was a bit jittery about the bigger things (such as restumping and wall moves) you would have us pretty well pegged! 
Hence part of my contribution is to research both laws and recommendations about what things are easily DIY and which things are best done by a professional. I think Hubby would ideally like to get a good builder to advise on the job and allow him to do most of the work unskilled labour himself... I am particularly open to suggestions and not interested in reinventing the wheel. I am keen to find out what owner/builder situations work best, safety is non-negotiable, if it is not safe to do something DIY then it gets passed to a professional.

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## ringtail

Good help is the key to successful owner building. Most people who do it and dont have building experience ( or contacts that do) get shafted at every turn by tradies and generally end up blowing the budget and time line. It can be extremely stressful and put a great deal of tension into a once happy relationship. But, if done correctly, it can be the most rewarding experience and very, very cost effective. The golden rule is supervision. If you employ trades to do work,* someone who knows what they are doing must be on site at all times to supervise*. I cant stress this enough. Nearly all issues in all building projects are due to a lack of supervision or direction. With respect, this means your hubby will need to be there all day, every day that paid labour is engaged. This means he will loose income, but hopefully make up for it by not paying for labour for the majority of the project. Every single person that works on your site needs to be watched like a hawk, given a very firm hand and no lee way. Remember, you are the builder and the client. A lot of tradies treat OB's badly and dont do the best quality work for them. Getting them back to rectify mistakes is very hard. This is why they must be supervised at all times, to make sure its right first time. Handing things to a professional is no gaurentee (sp) that its done right.

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## alsocass

Great points and I agree with you. Hubby has told me many stories about his coworkers while he was a domestic sparky, they were not impressive. Lots of food for thought.

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## jkirky

+1 regarding watch the trades like a hawk... 
Just remember to assume that all tradesmen coming onto site are ready and willing to take the easy road. That means the information they give you regarding a job is usually in their own interest to make a job easier/ quicker or more comfortable... Trust no one! The amount of times I have heard the lamest excuses for poor work it kills me... I know enough to know they are full of crap, but they assume the owner builder is ignorant- hence they will try everything on, including chumming up to you so you trust them more... 
At the end of the day no construction is perfect and the client needs to remember that mistakes can and will always happen on a job site, but you need to have enough building knowledge and experience to know what mistakes must be corrected and which ones you can get away with. Once the jobs finished, as said it's very hard to have the work re done. I almost think that an owner builder needs to have virtually enough building knowledge themselves to complete the job in order to satisfactorily supervise. Obviously within reason, but definitely need a well rounded building knowledge...

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## alsocass

> +1 regarding watch the trades like a hawk... 
> Just remember to assume that all tradesmen coming onto site are ready and willing to take the easy road. That means the information they give you regarding a job is usually in their own interest to make a job easier/ quicker or more comfortable... Trust no one! The amount of times I have heard the lamest excuses for poor work it kills me... I know enough to know they are full of crap, but they assume the owner builder is ignorant- hence they will try everything on, including chumming up to you so you trust them more... 
> At the end of the day no construction is perfect and the client needs to remember that mistakes can and will always happen on a job site, but you need to have enough building knowledge and experience to know what mistakes must be corrected and which ones you can get away with. Once the jobs finished, as said it's very hard to have the work re done. I almost think that an owner builder needs to have virtually enough building knowledge themselves to complete the job in order to satisfactorily supervise. Obviously within reason, but definitely need a well rounded building knowledge...

  Thanks.  I can honestly say I get suckered into BS very easily.  
Also, I think on top of what you have said you should add having the personality to stand up to the tradies. It is one thing to know the job is not good enough, and another to put on the "asshole" hat until a job is done properly... I suppose it is about knowing your role, as a supervisor not a mate.

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## ringtail

There is generally no need to be a Hitler about it, just let them know that only top work will be tolerated and paid for. Bad work will need to be rectified at the contractors cost and no money will change hands until the standard is met. Never, ever pay more than 10 % deposit for anything, ever and always hold final payment for each trade until their work is inspected properly and you are happy.

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## autogenous

_How on earth do we begin to work out what it is all going to cost? - how long is a piece of string - price a new house per square metre then double it for a renno_ 
Have a contract building estimator draw quantities and costs.  Probably one of the most important aspects of building.  They may even be able to source materials at builders prices as well.  Save a bundle. 
Even the banks are more likely to offer you a loan if you have a professional business plan. 
Allow 15% for budget over run.  Stick to your budget, track costs and progress with Gaant charts to coordinate trade timings etc. "communicate" to all progress. 
Too many owner builders end up broke and divorced with a project gone wrong over budget because they changed their mind to gold taps.

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## autogenous

If trades are supplying materials then payment should only be when materials are delivered on site.   
Trades will also want progress payments if jobs are going to take longer than say 2 weeks.   
A progress payment should never exceed work done.   
Request a progress statement invoice prior to payment.  Document everything. 
Dont end up in a court case smack bang in the middle of construction.

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## Master Splinter

.....building a small bedroom in the roof space.... 
Here (ACT) that puts the job out of the reach of the owner builder - two story work has to be done by a holder of a B class licence, which isn't available to owner builders.  Your first step is to check with your local council to see what an O/B can do, block restrictions (maximum size of house permitted on your block, easements, setbacks, boundaries, development requirements) and all the costs the council will gouge you for. 
My quick guess is that you would be looking at costs pretty close to the 'knock it down and build a new one' point.....

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