# Forum Home Renovation Tiling  tiling cost increases for larger tiles and the fact that they are porcelain?

## KrilliC

Can anyone shed some light as to why tilers firstly charge more for larger tiles to be laid? I would have suspected it to cost less as lay one tile (say a 600 x 600 tile) and more area done. doesn't make sense to me.  
Also what makes laying porcelain tiles more expensive than regular tiles again makes no sense is this just a trade markup sure it must be as again laying porcelan tiles really doesn't take much more effort.

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## Dr Freud

The information below is based on the assumption you want a high quality finish.  If not, then disregard.  :Biggrin:  
Size first: Larger tiles take longer to lay time wise, as getting them level is more difficult.  Tiling is a game of millimetres, and the difference between a poor tiling job and a great tiling job is only measured in sub-millimetres.  I have attached a diagram below that crudely shows what I mean:    
Assume the green line is the tile and the horizontal black line is the floor level.  Assuming a tile 3 squares across (in the dotted lines), the "tile" is about 1 square up and down at each end.  Assuming a longer tile 8 squares across (full green tile line), the "tile" is about 2 squares up and down at each end.  So a longer tile laid at exactly the same angle as a smaller tile produces a 4 square (let's call it 4mm) height difference from end to end, as opposed to 2mm height difference in the smaller tile.  Therefore, longer green lines (or bigger tiles) need to be laid with a much higher quality (or in other words need to be more uniformly flat or level) to achieve the same "flatness".  The height difference that one edge of a tile sticks up above the next tile is called "lippage" and from memory I think about 2mm complies with some standard, certainly not mine.  My standard is zero. 
Small things like adhesive consistency and variable drying times from breezes can sometimes cause one side of a tiles adhesive to dry quicker and shrink causing tilt, or some dodgy adhesives have more "slump" or compression when drying.  These little shifts are much less of an issue with smaller tiles. 
Then there's the actual carrying and laying.  Squatting, kneeling and crawling all day laying 200x200 or 300x300 is fairly easy as they are pretty light for each tile and very easy to drop in with one hand if needed.  Trying to gently place a 600x600 tile perfectly flat leaning over wet adhesive all day is a back killer when taking the time to get them perfectly level. 
As for the porcelain, this makes it even more important to get the floor level as they have sharper edges.  Most ceramic tiles are "baked" or fired separately and generally have beveled or rounded edges.  So if you do get 1mm or 2mm lippage, not really a big deal as shoes, wheels, toes etc generally roll over the little rounded edges.  Porcelain with a sharp cut edge, and often razor sharp corners, results in shoes stuck, wheels clunking, and toes sliced open. 
In summary, small beveled tiles are quite forgiving if not laid perfectly flat.  Large (800x800) porcelain tiles can be hell on Earth for the tiniest imperfection in levels.  This translates into time, which translates into money. 
If using small beveled tiles, get the cheapest bloke you can find and you won't notice much.  If using big porcelain tiles, definitely get references of prior similar jobs. 
Hope that helps.  :Biggrin:

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## METRIX

Also Porcelain tiles are a bugger to cut or drill, they are like steel, compared to ceramic, these are like drilling through a sponge cake.
I think it is justified to charge more for working with either porcelain and or large format tiles. 
Some people get a bit funny about laying costs for large format porcelain as the big discount tile outlets sell them very cheap (usually 2nds or end of run) and a lot of people buy them because of this and because they look nice, only to find out there is a slightly higher price for laying them, this needs to be factored into the overall cost, and is justified. 
As said above, it takes a good tiler to lay 600x600 porcelain on a crook floor and keep lippage to a minimum, I have seen some shocking porcelain floor jobs 
Reference Below *Lippage* 
Lippage is defined as a condition where one edge of a tile is higher than an adjacent tile, giving the finished surface an uneven appearance. 
With the increase in use of large format tile and stones on floors, the issue of lippage is becoming more common place. A tile or stone larger than 400 mm x 400 mm can be
considered large format.  
Large format tile presents many challenges to the installer. As stated in the Australian Standard AS3958.1; for thin-bed ceramic tile installations when an adhesive will be used on a concrete floor: maximum allowable variation in the tile substrate is 5 mm in 3 m and for thin-bed ceramic tile installation when an adhesive will be used on a wall: maximum allowable variation in the tile substrate  4 mm in 2 m, both from the required plane, when measured from the high points in the surface. Should the architect/designer require a more stringent finish tolerance (e.g. 3 mm in 3 m), the subsurface specification must reflect that tolerance, or the tile specification must include a specific and separate requirement to bring the subsurface tolerance into compliance with the desired tolerance.  
Lippage can be exacerbated when the tile pattern is placed in a running bond pattern. The installer now has to deal with at least six points to ensure a level surface.
It is important to note that a certain amount of lippage is unavoidable and inherent in ceramic tile installations and may also be unavoidable due to the tile tolerances,
in accordance with AS4662. This discussion deals with the issue of excessive lippage. 
Lippage is defined as a condition where one edge of a tile is higher than an adjacent tile, giving the finished surface an uneven appearance (See picture 1-1). With the
increase in use of large format tile and stones on floors, the issue of lippage is becoming more common place. A tile or stone larger than 400 mm x 400 mm can be
considered large format. Large format tile presents many challenges to the installer.  
As stated in the Australian Standard AS3958.1; for thin-bed ceramic tile installations when an adhesive will be used on a concrete floor: maximum allowable variation in the tile substrate is 5 mm in 3 m and for thin-bed ceramic tile installation when an adhesive will be used on a wall: maximum allowable variation in the tile substrate  4 mm in 2 m, both from the required plane, when measured from the high points in the surface. Should the architect/designer require a more stringent finish tolerance (e.g. 3 mm in 3 m), the subsurface specification must reflect that tolerance,
or the tile specification must include a specific and separate requirement to bring the subsurface tolerance into compliance with the desired tolerance. Lippage can be
exacerbated when the tile pattern is placed in a running bond pattern.  
The installer now has to deal with at least six points to ensure a level surface. It is important to note that a certain amount of lippage is unavoidable and inherent in ceramic tile installations and may also be unavoidable due to the tile tolerances,in accordance with AS4662. This discussion deals with the issue of excessive lippage.

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## KrilliC

this argument to lie a single 600x600 tiles takes longer to tile, I'm sorry but it makes no sense, as let's argue for instance it does take longer for a single 600x600 tile, but the amount of time it would take to tile 4 tiles for argument sake that are say 300x300 for the same area will at least take just as long since here you will have to tile 4 tiles as opposed to 1. So ok you may need to take a bit more time to lay a single 600x600 tiles but I would say it won't take longer than laying 4 300x300 tiles to take up the same area so to me this argument doesn't fly. 
As for cutting the tile it may be harder to cut but that is why you have a wet tile cutter for the normal cuts and the odd cuts you'll do as per normal. Please don't tell me it costs so much more just to cut a porcelain tile (I've seen additional labor costs to tile a 25m square area to be $2000 over standard). Also I have never seen a tiler tile a perfect floor although close enough to be good enough which would be the most people could expect. 
Also I notice the quote of standards but I must say good luck with that to actually argue the point if they are out as well. You'll be lucky to get anything out of it and waste more time and your nerves going after them (I know I would but many wouldn't).

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## Godzilla73

Dr Freud and Metrix have given you a detailed description and yet you still think you're being stung, not much more can be said to change your perception unfortunately. Is it a new build or an older place? 
I can tell you from experience they take longer, getting the rectified edges to an acceptable standard was a pain and on some tiles i may have spent anything upto 5 minutes adjusting them. Sometimes pulling them up to add or remove glue as was needed.

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## KrilliC

> Dr Freud and Metrix have given you a detailed description and yet you still think you're being stung, not much more can be said to change your perception unfortunately. Is it a new build or an older place?

  what's there to know, seriously, as said your telling me that tiling 4 tiles that are 300x300 will take a shorter period of time than tiling a single 600x600 tile??? Come on seriously who's leg are you trying to pull here. This is all on a newly laid concrete floor where there is nothing to worry about. To try and justify the extra cost because it takes longer to lay a tile because it's larger either your treating people as dumb or naive at best. As explained you can not argue that laying a single floor tile as opposed to 4 will take longer and hence requires a greater cost.   

> I can tell you from experience they take longer, getting the rectified edges to an acceptable standard was a pain and on some tiles i may have spent anything upto 5 minutes adjusting them. Sometimes pulling them up to add or remove glue as was needed.

  No offence but 5 minutes to lay a single tile, I have never seen or heard of that, somehow you must be doing something wrong to take 5 minutes to lay a single tile if your selling yourself as an experienced tiler.  
Also referring to the standards , I have yet to see any tiler demonstrated that their tile laying is within the 4mm tolerance over 2m. Its simply yeah she looks ok and thats it, the end user is usually non the wiser. 
Edit: If your really worried about levelling get something like: Levelling System OR Tuscan Leveling System

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## krico

> No offence but 5 minutes to lay a single tile, I have never seen or heard of that, somehow you must be doing something wrong to take 5 minutes to lay a single tile if your selling yourself as an experienced tiler.

  Have you ever laid tiles before? Have you ever watched a tiler at work laying large tiles like this?  
Maybe go and find a tiler and ask to watch him do his job laying large tiles like this and you will see the skill involved.

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## Godzilla73

> what's there to know, seriously

  Love this line, that's gold.    

> No offence but 5 minutes to lay a single tile, I have never seen or heard of that, somehow you must be doing something wrong to take 5 minutes to lay a single tile if your selling yourself as an experienced tiler.

  Never said i was a tiler buddy, was merely trying to get across it's a skill worth paying for. My times my own and i like doing a good job, i do exactly the same for the people i work for. Hope you find a tiler who does the same for you. 
Open your eyes and ears instead of fobbing off others opinions with "what's there to know", pick up a trowel and have a crack yourself if you think it's that easy. 
If you keep thinking you're getting ripped you won't be getting it tiled anytime soon, you'd be surprised what we slow tradies pick up on at a first meeting. 
Good Luck... :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## ringtail

If you are not in the industry you have no idea. I'll second everything the boys have already said. Rectified edge large format tiles are a PITA to lay even for the seasoned pro. BTW, your new "nothing to worry about concrete floor" will have dips and hollows all over the place. If you dont like the quotes you are getting I suggest you have a go at yourself then KrillC.

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## KrilliC

> Have you ever laid tiles before? Have you ever watched a tiler at work laying large tiles like this?  
> Maybe go and find a tiler and ask to watch him do his job laying large tiles like this and you will see the skill involved.

  actually I have, this type of comment just shows desperation and a lack of a justified response. For those who haven't even seen an tiler in real life they can gather the work involved in laying porcelain tiles or tiles that are of 600x600 even on places like youtube. 
Here are a few for those who would like to look, showing the variety of different methods that people use, some better than others: Tile installation 1 - YouTube Tile Installation 2 using Levelling System - YouTube 
there are of course others out there Showing installation and step by step techniques even those who haven't seen it first hand. The various methods show how varied tiles are and will be installed by different tilers again demonstrating what people can experience. Again it shows that the argument of laying 600x600 tiles takes a long time (well longer than installing 4 300x300 tiles in comparison) is bogus at best. As for levelling again we see how this is done and not so hugely time consuming. 
Seriously to be charged over $2k EXTRA (well $2200) over standard tiles to lay for a simply 5m x 5m square area I must have chose the wrong profession if people can justify this.

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## Brettus

I have been tiling a few years now and I can assure you it is much more difficult to lay large format tiles, especially with a rectified edge, than it is to lay a 300 x 300 ceramic which has a curved edge.  
To the uneducated person who has never laid tiles, theoretically it should be easier and faster to lay larger tiles, and it would be if it was being laid on a PERFECTLY FLAT surface, but the reality is that 90% of surfaces are very far from flat, and it takes a LONG TIME to correct floor imperfections to avoid serious lipping and make a tiled floor look flat.  Smaller tiles simply follow the floor and it is 10 times easier even though the tile is only a quarter the size.
Not to mention the extra glue that is consumed with uneven floors, sometimes a $35 bag of glue only covers 5 meters...
All I can say is go and try laying large format tiles yourself.
Price is truly justified.

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## KrilliC

> If you are not in the industry you have no idea. I'll second everything the boys have already said. Rectified edge large format tiles are a PITA to lay even for the seasoned pro. BTW, your new "nothing to worry about concrete floor" will have dips and hollows all over the place. If you dont like the quotes you are getting I suggest you have a go at yourself then KrillC.

  So I must be in the industry to understand the pricing structure for sure, as the price mark up is actually mind boggling. Obviously you will want to defend your bread and butter after all who would want their pricing structure to drop. As for my floor of course it will have slight dips that's obvious hence why you will have to factor that in when laying for lips etc and hence why previous posts on the matter. The quotes especially over standard are ridiculous especially for such a simple square area, talk about protecting your species here.

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## KrilliC

> I have been tiling a few years now and I can assure you it is much more difficult to lay large format tiles, especially with a rectified edge, than it is to lay a 300 x 300 ceramic which has a curved edge.  
> To the uneducated person who has never laid tiles, theoretically it should be easier and faster to lay larger tiles, and it would be if it was being laid on a PERFECTLY FLAT surface, but the reality is that 90% of surfaces are very far from flat, and it takes a LONG TIME to correct floor imperfections to avoid serious lipping and make a tiled floor look flat.  Smaller tiles simply follow the floor and it is 10 times easier even though the tile is only a quarter the size.
> Not to mention the extra glue that is consumed with uneven floors, sometimes a $35 bag of glue only covers 5 meters...
> All I can say is go and try laying large format tiles yourself.
> Price is truly justified.

  your going to use similar thinset as you would for smaller tiles not that much difference (nothing to even mention in comparison between the two). for the price quoted on my simply square 5m x 5m area (not including tiles) I actually can buy a wet tile cutter, sigma cutter, the tiles, the thinset needed, edging, spacers, grout and still have money in my pocket for such a small simple area.

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## Brettus

And by the way, it seems you have been quoted $2200 for 25 meters, this is on the high side even if it is 600mm tiles, but the tiler may have looked at your floor and there may be reasons for a high quote.  If you can get under $60 or $70 per meter these days for that size its a good price but you better keep an eye out for the the quality as its getting done.

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## KrilliC

> And by the way, it seems you have been quoted $2200 for 25 meters, this is on the high side even if it is 600mm tiles, but the tiler may have looked at your floor and there may be reasons for a high quote.  If you can get under $60 or $70 per meter these days for that size its a good price but you better keep an eye out for the the quality as its getting done.

  notice that I was quoted not $2200 to actually tile the area, I'm actually talking $2200 EXTRA over what normal non porcelain 600x600 tiles cost. 
And As for the quality as you mention thats the point once its done its done so you may end up paying for the job but as an end user you will not know till it is done what type of job you are going to get and by then if it is crap or not in tolerances then good luck. As mentioned there are many different methods people use and your never going to get perfect just good enough at best.

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## Brettus

???? What WERE you actually quoted to tile the 25 square meters?  Just the labour and the glue, what are we talking per square meter?  (exclude cost of tiles)

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## KrilliC

> ???? What WERE you actually quoted to tile the 25 square meters?  Just the labour and the glue, what are we talking per square meter?  (exclude cost of tiles)

  Like I said the cost was an additional $2200 to tile a simply 5m x 5m square area for tiles that are 500 x 500 porcelain without tiles included. Total cost $3400 just for laying the tiles. The tiles themselves actually costed me $900 to buy so total cost would be $4300. 
seriously talk about protected species especially after what people here have actually tried to defend. No wonder.

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## Brettus

Dude I dont know who you got to quote it, or where you live (Antarctica?) but $136/meter is ludicrous, surely something has been calculated wrong. Get another quote or 3 and see whats up.  Id do it for half that it was perfectly flat!

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## Godzilla73

Something funny going on here... :Spyme:

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## KrilliC

There is a lot of informative stuff for DIY tiling, youtube is a wealth of knowledge:  Troweling - YouTube 
as for floor cleaning make sure you sweep and then just prior to laying your tile lightly wet down your area to tile with a sponge. 
here is a guy installing tiles showing how long it takes and what people usually see from tilers when they come for an install. This is what I have seen on numeroud times as well.  Installing Tile thin-set Spacers alignment - YouTube

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## KrilliC

> Dude I dont know who you got to quote it, or where you live (Antarctica?) but $136/meter is ludicrous, surely something has been calculated wrong. Get another quote or 3 and see whats up.  Id do it for half that it was perfectly flat!

  well another came up within $150 of that price, like i said a rip. I stopped after that as it gave me the @@@@@ that no way i was going to pay that price. I also love it how people here came on and straight away defended their own so to speak which goes to show you how such tradies are willing to simply screw you. Atleast for you you had a sense of understanding unlike others here. 
I did the calculations and it would be better for me to simply do the job. I'm not hopeless at doing work with my hands, I have actually constructed frames for buildings but thought i would take it easy on such a job and get someone in to do it for me but after the quotes well....

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## Brettus

So where are you??  I've never heard of such crazy prices.  I could even fly there and do it cheaper.  Again, somethings wrong.  And if your basing your ideas on watching that guy in florida lay six tiles a minute, then your way off the pace.  I suggest you do it yourself and let everyone know how you go.

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## KrilliC

> So where are you??  I've never heard of such crazy prices.  I could even fly there and do it cheaper.  Again, somethings wrong.  And if your basing your ideas on watching that guy in florida lay six tiles a minute, then your way off the pace.  I suggest you do it yourself and let everyone know how you go.

  I'm not expecting to lay 6 tiles a minutes seriously If I lay even a tiles every 10 minutes I won't be to concerned, I'm not doing it to earn a living but for myself. Won't take that long but like I said not fussed if I'm not doing it a tile a minute. 
Like I said for the price I received I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole its no wonder these days many people do most of the work themselves, a boom in DIY. seriously even at $70 a square meter I would have hesitations maybe $45 is a consideration and again this idea that it should cost more again I don't see it justifiable at all.

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## intertd6

> Like I said the cost was an additional $2200 to tile a simply 5m x 5m square area for tiles that are 500 x 500 porcelain without tiles included. Total cost $3400 just for laying the tiles. The tiles themselves actually costed me $900 to buy so total cost would be $4300. 
> seriously talk about protected species especially after what people here have actually tried to defend. No wonder.

  You might have let your reputation & demeanour slip out while the tiler was there doing his quote maybe & he has quoted accordingly.
regards inter

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## ringtail

> So I must be in the industry to understand the pricing structure for sure, as the price mark up is actually mind boggling. Obviously you will want to defend your bread and butter after all who would want their pricing structure to drop. As for my floor of course it will have slight dips that's obvious hence why you will have to factor that in when laying for lips etc and hence why previous posts on the matter. The quotes especially over standard are ridiculous especially for such a simple square area, talk about protecting your species here.

   
No, you must be in the industry to understand how difficult it is to lay large format tiles* properly.* 
As for* "protecting my species"* and* "defending my bread and butter"* - I'm a carpenter so I dont give a crap how much tilers charge. Have a go and do it yourself, I dare you

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## KrilliC

> You might have let your reputation & demeanour slip out while the tiler was there doing his quote maybe & he has quoted accordingly.
> regards inter

  seriously is this your post? I wouldn't employ a tradie who thinks that somehow I am to bend over backwards to give them a job as it seems you think the home owner needs to do for you. I will treat them accordingly, do a good job I give them the credit they deserve do a crap job I will deal with it accordingly, just like any other person earning an income.

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## Danny.S

If you don't like the answers don't ask the question. This is a friendly and respectful forum, when you pop in as a newbie and ask for opinions and advice, then just shoot down every response it's just poor form. Experienced tradies and skilled non tradies give their time to respond to questions and help complete strangers around here, how about at least showing some courtesy. 
I'm not a tiler, just a newbie here like you.

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## davegol

I'm not a tiler, but I have done a kitchen splashback (with small ceramic tiles - that was easy). I watched our (pro) tiler do our reno a couple of months back (porcelain, 600x300, rectified edge) and it was a HUGE job - I could never have done it like he did. Easily takes longer to lay bigger, rectified edged, tiles, b/c you have to get the adhesive JUST right so you don't get it uneven. MUCH lower tolerances means more time. Simple. Like you, I was also surprised (beforehand) that he quoted a higher price for larger tiles, but I chose to respectfully discuss it with him and accepted his (and the builder's) explanation, and then got to watch first-hand why they charged more. Afterwards, I understood.

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## KrilliC

> If you don't like the answers don't ask the question.

  why not just because someone tells me something doesn't mean i have to accept it as in life many times it has taught me not to take the first thing a person tells me as the best advice or even honest. I always research all avenues and aspects from a variety of sources in the area I'm looking at.   

> This is a friendly and respectful forum, when you pop in as a newbie and ask for opinions and advice, then just shoot down every response it's just poor for form.

  It has been demonstrated that people in this thread have simply jumped in to defend their position (except for Brettus) and actually not offer anything of substance. Tell me seriously you really think that laying four 300x300 tiles will take more time than actually laying one 600x600 tile? You also really think it you will use more thinset to layer the same? Come one surely your not that naive to accept it unless your justr trying to play nice.   

> Experienced tradies and skilled non tradies give their time to respond to questions and help complete strangers around here, how about at least showing some courtesy.

  Oh come on there are a small few that actually do offer reasonable help and like I said I will call something BS when i see it, and when its not I will also appreciate the input. The reality is as shown int his thread there is only a minority that have actually added any value to the thread. 
Again I come back and say lay four 300 x 300 tiles and then lay a single tile of 600x600 and show me that you'll lay the four tiles quicker. This justification is nothing but short of BS    

> I'm not a tiler so I'm not defending the trade.  I'm just a newbie around here like you.

  Again I suggest you not take the first thing you get told as gospel but actually research any queries in depth from various sources. 
I've had a bricky do some work for me and did a good job and actually paid him more than he asked because of his work, not afraid to reward excellent work although I did tell him I'll look after him if he looked after me.
Edit: I also provided him lunch and drink throughout the 3 weeks he did the job for me as I saw him working well and doing a good job. Not afraid to reward good workers but will not sit by and accept bs when I see it.

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## KrilliC

> I'm not a tiler, but I have done a kitchen splashback (with small ceramic tiles - that was easy). I watched our (pro) tiler do our reno a couple of months back (porcelain, 600x300, rectified edge) and it was a HUGE job - I could never have done it like he did. Easily takes longer to lay bigger, rectified edged, tiles, b/c you have to get the adhesive JUST right so you don't get it uneven. MUCH lower tolerances means more time. Simple. Like you, I was also surprised (beforehand) that he quoted a higher price for larger tiles, but I chose to respectfully discuss it with him and accepted his (and the builder's) explanation, and then got to watch first-hand why they charged more. Afterwards, I understood.

  
I agree with you on the splash back I would avoid tiling on walls although for floors I would disagree here. I just wouldn't like to lay wall tiles before I have experienced laying tiles on the floor.

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## Brettus

Hey KrillC where are you located in Australia? Id consider coming to do your work for a bargain if you can understand some of the pricing

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## KrilliC

> Hey KrillC where are you located in Australia? Id consider coming to do your work for a bargain if you can understand some of the pricing

  I'm in NSW although what price are you considering? 
I'd also ask what type of adhesive are you going to use for the tiles and does your job include sealing the tiles and grout lines.

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## Brettus

Tiling prices dont usualy include sealing.
My price would inlcude high quality flexible glue, depending on what substrate you are tiling onto.
My suggestion is try tiling it yourself, then message me if you cant seriously get someone reasonably priced to do it.

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## KrilliC

> Tiling prices dont usualy include sealing.

  fair enough.   

> My price would inlcude high quality flexible glue, depending on what substrate you are tiling onto.

  substrate is a concrete floor without any cracks, probably looking at thinset here.   

> My suggestion is try tiling it yourself, then message me if you cant seriously get someone reasonably priced to do it.

  yeah I'm already looking into it, like i said since i'm not doing this to earn a crust I'm happy to take a few days and get a top job than the need to have it done right away.

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## KrilliC

after doing a bit of research I've decided to do the tiling myself using the ATR TILE LEVELING SYSTEM I've decided to wait till my house is fully completed inside and then do the tiling (about 6 months away). The area will be around 80 sqm and I'll also tile my steps.

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## Dr Freud

> You might have let your reputation & demeanour slip out while the tiler was there doing his quote maybe & he has quoted accordingly.
> regards inter

  Indeed. 
Experienced tradies in all trades are very astute at adding this special levy to our special clients as we know how much extra time we need to allow for the special administration involved.  :2thumbsup:  
For those less experienced, it only takes a few special clients to teach you this lesson.  Consider this a free preview.  :Biggrin:   
I was going to point out some of the pro's and con's with your selected system to help you out a bit, but what would I know... :Doh:

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## KrilliC

> Indeed. 
> Experienced tradies in all trades are very astute at adding this special levy to our special clients as we know how much extra time we need to allow for the special administration involved.

  trust me when i say there is a tradie a dozen that is willing to take such tradies place. Looks like you don't need to work and think you can dictate to the person your working for what they should accept and believe you should be the boss of them. Good luck with that.   

> For those less experienced, it only takes a few special clients to teach you this lesson.  Consider this a free preview.

  As mentioned not interested in arrogant tradies so I'm happy for you to try and find work elsewhere.   

> I was going to point out some of the pro's and con's with your selected system to help you out a bit, but what would I know...

  It's ok it doesn't take a genius to lay a few tiles and who would actually trust your word on it from this display of a post. 
I've kicked tradies like yourself of my premises because of the poor work they were doing all the while thinking they could tell me to accept their substandard work and that I should be grateful for their job. They soon found out quite quickly who was the one in charge. Never pay upfront and only when the job is done, anyone who does deserves, a tradie like yourself.

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## shauck

I deliberately don't advertise my work and this limits me a lot but at least I only work for courteous and understanding clients who are always friendly and trusting and understanding of the difficulties. For them, I will work hard, do the best job I can and will never rip them off. I wonder if the reputation tradies have for not returning calls or putting in a quote or overquoting, etc may have something to do with sifting through the good and bad jobs.

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## METRIX

> after doing a bit of research I've decided to do the tiling myself using the ATR TILE LEVELING SYSTEM I've decided to wait till my house is fully completed inside and then do the tiling (about 6 months away). The area will be around 80 sqm and I'll also tile my steps.

  I hope you don't have any further questions regarding anything to do with your house completion for the next 6 months, or anytime after this because with an attitude like yours, nobody here will help you (I know I won't be). 
You were provided information by these guys in a friendly manner, and you straight away started to bag out everyone and try to disprove anything they said, half the people that replied to you are Builders and Chippies, they have no vested interest in tiling and are not trying to "Cover Up" the secret handshake deals that go on between tradies when charging clients, because there are no such things. 
My suggestion is use the ATR system, and be happy with the job you have done, I'm sure these systems will help you achieve a good finish. 
But please don't come on here creating aggravation for the guys that are here offering assistance, NOBODY here is getting payed to help anyone who asks a question, and a lot of personal time is given up by the guys and girls here to help other for FREE. 
Obviously you don't appreciate anything that is being offered to you for FREE so I would suggest you go elsewhere to find what you are looking for, NOBODY here want's to assist a newbie who comes in with a bad attitude. *
Food for thought* 
 Maybe, Just Maybe your excessive tiler quotes were a reflection of your attitude, the worst the attitude the higher the quote, you are definitely not the type of client anyone want's to work for.    
Oh and when your done, don't bother posting any pictures because nobody will be interested in HOW MUCH BETTER you did the job than the rip of tradies who tried to take all your money. :No:

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## shauck

> I hope you don't have any further questions regarding anything to do with your house completion for the next 6 months, or anytime after this because with an attitude like yours, nobody here will help you (I know I won't be). 
> You were provided information by these guys in a friendly manner, and you straight away started to bag out everyone and try to disprove anything they said, half the people that replied to you are Builders and Chippies, they have no vested interest in tiling and are not trying to "Cover Up" the secret handshake deals that go on between tradies when charging clients, because there are no such things. 
> My suggestion is use the ATR system, and be happy with the job you have done, I'm sure these systems will help you achieve a good finish. 
> But please don't come on here creating aggravation for the guys that are here offering assistance, NOBODY here is getting payed to help anyone who asks a question, and a lot of personal time is given up by the guys and girls here to help other for FREE. 
> Obviously you don't appreciate anything that is being offered to you for FREE so I would suggest you go elsewhere to find what you are looking for, NOBODY here want's to assist a newbie who comes in with a bad attitude. *
> Food for thought* 
>  Maybe, Just Maybe your excessive tiler quotes were a reflection of your attitude, the worst the attitude the higher the quote, you are definitely not the type of client anyone want's to work for.    
> Oh and when your done, don't bother posting any pictures because nobody will be interested in HOW MUCH BETTER you did the job than the rip of tradies who tried to take all your money.

  Detailed posting as usual Metrix  :Biggrin:

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## Uncle Bob

Can someone pass over that popcorn  :Smilie:

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## Gaza

I hope you don't rip any trades off building your place cause they might burn it down and mate I don't blame them either.

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## shauck

I don't know if it's true but apparently the guy who excavated our driveway has taken a bulldozer to a house once.  :Shock:  I do know he's not pushy about payment either so it must have been something else....

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## KrilliC

> I deliberately don't advertise my work and this limits me a lot but at least I only work for courteous and understanding clients who are always friendly and trusting and understanding of the difficulties. For them, I will work hard, do the best job I can and will never rip them off. I wonder if the reputation tradies have for not returning calls or putting in a quote or overquoting, etc may have something to do with sifting through the good and bad jobs.

  Like I said I have no problem working with courteous tradies who also know their trade but I will not tolerate incompetence from those who insist that they be the boss and try and boss the person who hired them for the job around as demonstrated by some tradies here. It is the loud ones that think they are the best but in my experience it has been shown that they are either the joe average tradie or worse and simply mark up. 
Your the type of tradie from what you wrote here that will get a big tick. All I expect from a tradie is to do an excellent job and be courteous and he will receive in kind. You are correct that tradies who think they can over quote are simply doing nothing more than damaging their own rep, as I said their is always another to easily replace them.

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## KrilliC

> I hope you don't have any further questions regarding anything to do with your house completion for the next 6 months, or anytime after this because with an attitude like yours, nobody here will help you (I know I won't be).

  seriously are you that naive, I see you have no idea how forums and life works if you really think that.   

> You were provided information by these guys in a friendly manner, and you straight away started to bag out everyone and try to disprove anything they said, half the people that replied to you are Builders and Chippies, they have no vested interest in tiling and are not trying to "Cover Up" the secret handshake deals that go on between tradies when charging clients, because there are no such things.

  oh yes again try that with someone else, again tell me how again it takes longer to tile a single 600x600 tiles as opposed to four 300x300 floor tiles. Seriously who do you think your kidding. I will call BS when I see it its just that this is a tradie community that not often you see someone tell it to you straight and people like you don't like it. It is amazing how many posts this thread has received in defence of tradies compared to posts asking for help in this forum in such a short time. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):     

> My suggestion is use the ATR system, and be happy with the job you have done, I'm sure these systems will help you achieve a good finish. 
> But please don't come on here creating aggravation for the guys that are here offering assistance, NOBODY here is getting payed to help anyone who asks a question, and a lot of personal time is given up by the guys and girls here to help other for FREE.

  
I am happy to accept evidence that shows me I'm wrong but everything about more time required to lay a larger tile is just bogus and I'm happy to have a healthy discussion but all to often we simply see people simply rant and post childish comments (i.e. damage your property lol good luck with that I'd love a tradie to try).   

> Obviously you don't appreciate anything that is being offered to you for FREE so I would suggest you go elsewhere to find what you are looking for, NOBODY here want's to assist a newbie who comes in with a bad attitude.

  Just because something is said doesn't make it correct and doesn't make it so that I automatically accept it, only a smuck would be so naive to do so. As said there are plenty of resources on the web that points to what I have said to be true.  

> *
> Food for thought* 
>  Maybe, Just Maybe your excessive tiler quotes were a reflection of your attitude, the worst the attitude the higher the quote, you are definitely not the type of client anyone want's to work for.

  Actually when a tradie comes I treat them well and simply say here is what I'm looking at having done and let the tradie do their thing for assessing the job. After that I get them to estimate a cost and go from there. What's there to show attitude, there is nothing to warrant it to start so nice try but fail...   

> Oh and when your done, don't bother posting any pictures because nobody will be interested in HOW MUCH BETTER you did the job than the rip of tradies who tried to take all your money.

  Lol, what worried about being shown up. As said there is plenty of evidence available to show what I'm saying is correct this is not the only place to research.

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## KrilliC

> I hope you don't rip any trades off building your place cause they might burn it down and mate I don't blame them either.

  A tradie has never been ripped of by me, they do the job correctly they actually get what was agreed and even in some cases a bonus but I will not pay a tradie who has done a job that isn't to standard and I have kicked such tradies off. These tradies aren't being ripped off they actually get of lightly. I've had tradies come install gutters and the tosser had no idea and caused more damage to the gutters and the frame after doing half the house, well very quickly he was shown the door No payment and he got of lightly. Another tradie came to install windows and the tosser started to cut into the window frame and actually started to cut into the window itself as well and caused leaks into the house and the frame itself, he was booted as well, again no payment. Had a plumber who tried to install pipes around the home guess how deep he layed the pipe? you got it above the foundation because he was to lazy to actually dig a proper hole again shown the door very quickly. Plenty of cowboy tradies and there is no need to accept crap from them 
Non of these tradies deserved any payment and as I mentioned I'd love to see a tradie try anything, just love to.

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## Johning

> oh yes again try that with someone else, again tell me how again it takes longer to tile a single 600x600 tiles as opposed to four 300x300 floor tiles.

  Laying a single 600x600 tile is faster that four 300x300. Laying a floor with large format tiles takes longer than with small format tiles. Trust me. I am only a DIYer when it comes to tiling so I have no axe to grind. I tiled my bathroom with 600 x 300 tiles and it was tough. The substrate was as flat as I could make it but the tiles were not perfectly flat. I don't know if this is common as it was my first attempt at laying large format tiles. It took me muuuch longer than expected. Tiles had to be removed and relaid. In the end I did manage to complete the job and if I do say it myself "was OK". Have a go but expect some unexpected frustration.

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## KrilliC

> Laying a single 600x600 tile is faster that four 300x300. Laying a floor with large format tiles takes longer than with small format tiles. Trust me. I am only a DIYer when it comes to tiling so I have no axe to grind. I tiled my bathroom with 600 x 300 tiles and it was tough. The substrate was as flat as I could make it but the tiles were not perfectly flat. I don't know if this is common as it was my first attempt at laying large format tiles. It took me muuuch longer than expected. Tiles had to be removed and relaid. In the end I did manage to complete the job and if I do say it myself "was OK". Have a go but expect so unexpected frustration.

  For someone who is their first time I expect you to take more time than you expect as you don't do it day in and day out. For a tiler it will make little difference. I also expect you to take a lot longer to lay tiles that are 300x300 than what you expect this is a given.  
As I've said I know I won't be laying tiles as quick as a tiler, but I have no need to as its not to earn a living, but to say a tiler will take longer to lay a single 600x600 tile over the whole area as opposed to using 300x300 is just an excuse to demand more. I myself would expect to take a while to lay even 300x300 tiles and I even expect to take longer to lay those tiles for the same area for myself. 
remember as a first timer or someone who doesn't do it for a crust you expect to take longer to lay tiles in comparison.

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## Bedford

> seriously are you that naive, I see you have no idea how forums and life works if you really think that.

   

> As said there is plenty of evidence available to show what I'm saying is correct this is not the only place to research.

   So you've done all your research showing you're correct, congratulations. 
You have been given good advice from experienced members here that you will not accept. 
Having come to that conclusion, anything after is just trolling and wasting members time.          :Toot:  *DO NOT FEED THE TROLL*  :Toot:

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