# Forum Home Renovation Demolition  Poisonous treatment on old timber?

## laan

Hi, 
I've been picking up bits and pieces of old timber for a large shed project... I just started using some 90x60mm beams that used to be floor bearers in a recently demolished Canberra house (probably built in the early-mid sixties). They seem to be covered with some kind of brownish treatment that gives off a tarry/smokey smell when cutting the timber. Does anyone know what kind of treatment this might be, and if it's something I should be worried about? 
Cheers, Lars

----------


## toooldforthis

might be creosote?

----------


## laan

> might be creosote?

  Maybe, but it doesn't quite have the typical old power pole kind of creosote smell... and I though creosote was generally more "black"? 
Here's a couple of photos... One of the sides in the first photo has been sanded: 
Initially I didn't think they had any treatment, the timber surface looks fairly natural, but judging from the smell, they must have been treated with something.

----------


## Random Username

I'd say creosote too, for the tarry smell (after many years of out gassing time) but it could be that an old DIY builder coated them in sump oil as a cheap preservative, or it could even be watered down bituminous paint as some sort of vermin proofing.  Heck, what's heated DDT smell like?

----------


## intertd6

Doesn't look like anything has been put on the timber & it looks natural, it will be extremely hard so you're probably burning it with a blunt blade.
inter

----------


## laan

> Doesn't look like anything has been put on the timber & it looks natural, it will be extremely hard so you're probably burning it with a blunt blade.
> inter

  The timber is not that hard, probably Victorian Ash or similar. The smell is obvious even when doing light sanding which is definitively not burning the timber.  
I guess it must be some kind of creosote. Is long as it's not DDT I guess I'll just wear a mask and get on with it...

----------


## intertd6

> The timber is not that hard, probably Victorian Ash or similar. The smell is obvious even when doing light sanding which is definitively not burning the timber.  
> I guess it must be some kind of creosote. Is long as it's not DDT I guess I'll just wear a mask and get on with it...

  i was building with some natural HWD just recently & someone walked up & said the timber had a strong smell, I couldn't smell a thing.
inter

----------


## Snipper

Did a job years ago where we coated all the rough sawn HW weatherboards with a mix of linseed oil and sump oil.  Forget the mix.  Gave it a dark walnut like stain and helps preserve.

----------


## Bloss

HW floor bearers from a 60s-70s Canberra dwelling highly unlikely to have been treated with anything. Most likely the smell is simply the natural timber resins & oils once you sand or cut. Depending on the age the timber is likely to be messmate or mountain ash most of which came from mills on south coast NSW. 
In any case as you mentioned we should all be wearing masks and googles when sanding or cutting - any activity which might create dust of any type, in which case it is not much concern what it is you are smelling other than for general interest . . .

----------


## laan

> HW floor bearers from a 60s-70s Canberra dwelling highly unlikely to have been treated with anything. Most likely the smell is simply the natural timber resins & oils once you sand or cut.

  I've started building the shed using the old recycled ash timber as wall studs... I can't help worrying about that I might be exposing the kids to something potentially harmful. I'd be quite surprised if this was only natural timber resins. I've sanded and used a fair bit of old hardwood before and haven't seen/smelled anything like this. Here's another couple of photos, one showing a beam offcut cracked open along a couple of nail holes:  
As you can see in the first photo, it looks like something blackish has leaked into the nail hole and spead out through a minor crack in the timber. I know timber can get discoloured when in contact with iron, especially in combination with water/moisture, but this appears to me to be more than that. It just looks _too_ black. 
The beams I'm worried about came from an old demolished house in Hackett (Canberra)... I'm guessing pretty much all of them were government houses, built in the early 60s? Bloss, are you saying standard gov houses wouldn't have used for example creosote in their floor structures? I've talked to a couple of other builders with fairly long experience who tend to think this sort of old house timber could have been treated with creosote, or something else.  
The person who lived in the house before demolition was a car mechanic (he even had a mechanics pit in the garage) and he seems to have been keen on putting up all sorts of strange structures in his backyard, so I guess it's quite possible that the stuff on the beams is old sump oil, as was suggested above. I guess that would be less of a worry than creosote. 
If anyone's got any more ideas on this, or any suggestions as to what I can do or who I could contact to try to figure out what this stuff is, I'd be grateful. Having to worry about this sort of takes the fun out of building.

----------


## toooldforthis

I think creosote was only painted on posts/piers where they went in the ground. 
sump oil, in my case, got painted on whatever was handiest - usually the paling fence.
maybe the previous owner just painted the nearest timber/stack of wood. 
you think it is Victorian Ash. got any more from some other source so you can compare?

----------


## Random Username

That 'too black' nail hole stain is just the reaction of acids/tannins in the wood to the iron of the nail.  One of the tricks that old-time woodworkers used was to make up an ebony stain made from iron and vinegar, and it did get timber really, really black.

----------


## Bloss

> I've started building the shed using the old recycled ash timber as wall studs... I can't help worrying about that I might be exposing the kids to something potentially harmful. I'd be quite surprised if this was only natural timber resins. I've sanded and used a fair bit of old hardwood before and haven't seen/smelled anything like this. Here's another couple of photos, one showing a beam offcut cracked open along a couple of nail holes:  
> As you can see in the first photo, it looks like something blackish has leaked into the nail hole and spead out through a minor crack in the timber. I know timber can get discoloured when in contact with iron, especially in combination with water/moisture, but this appears to me to be more than that. It just looks _too_ black. 
> The beams I'm worried about came from an old demolished house in Hackett (Canberra)... I'm guessing pretty much all of them were government houses, built in the early 60s? Bloss, are you saying standard gov houses wouldn't have used for example creosote in their floor structures? I've talked to a couple of other builders with fairly long experience who tend to think this sort of old house timber could have been treated with creosote, or something else.  
> The person who lived in the house before demolition was a car mechanic (he even had a mechanics pit in the garage) and he seems to have been keen on putting up all sorts of strange structures in his backyard, so I guess it's quite possible that the stuff on the beams is old sump oil, as was suggested above. I guess that would be less of a worry than creosote. 
> If anyone's got any more ideas on this, or any suggestions as to what I can do or who I could contact to try to figure out what this stuff is, I'd be grateful. Having to worry about this sort of takes the fun out of building.

  You are over worrying and overthinking this and that's what is taking the fun out go your DIYing! 
The fact is whatever was used, and my guess is nothing was, has been largely been leached out into the ground at the original site. As has been said the black in the small piece is simply the interaction of iron and the aides and tannins in the timber. The other still looks like ordinary old timber. It is possible that creosote or sump oil was used - not uncommon in older houses. But these are not dangerous at the sorts of exposures likely to whatever is left in now. 
There is a tiny tiny risk and much less than the many other risks your kids might be exposed to - certainly there is no risk from irregular small scale exposures  such as occasional touching of timbers etc. 
Of course as with all activities that create dust - use masks and goggles, for anyone likely to be exposed, when cutting and sanding etc, and use vacuum etc to clean up and dispose of wood waste if in any doubt as to what might be in it - standard good work practice. 
So my answer is you don't need to find out as the risk is so low as to be trivial. Your kids walk around near cars that have exhausts, they no doubt drive in cars too - at risk levels way higher than any probable risk involved in these 2nd hand timbers. So don't worry, be happy - and pat yourself on the back for using recycled timber . . .

----------


## The Bleeder

> I think creosote was only painted on posts/piers where they went in the ground. 
> sump oil, in my case, got painted on whatever was handiest - usually the paling fence.
> maybe the previous owner just painted the nearest timber/stack of wood. 
> you think it is Victorian Ash. got any more from some other source so you can compare?

  
Only the bit that went into the ground got the creosote treatments. 
If it has that smell to it probably sump oil and kero was used. This was the standard thing to put onto a paling fence. The smell was unforgettable and was there years after...and I mean years.... If you used diesel sump oil then don't go near that fence as everything turned black. 
When I was a kid had a neighbour do it to his fence on the day of cracker night. Gees it went up fast after a miss directed skyrocket hit it.

----------


## laan

> You are over worrying and overthinking this and that's what is taking the fun out go your DIYing!

  I've been known to do that (overthinking and worrying), yes... in this case though, with young children potentially exposed to something that is classified as cancerogenic, I think it's fairly justified to be a bit concerned and try to get some facts. Anyway, after doing a fair bit or research, I've basically come to the conclusion that, just as Bloss says, the risk in my case is completely negligible. It is apparently hard to establish a connection between creosote exposure and serious health problems even in groups of people who's been working with the stuff on a daily basis for many years. So I guess I better find something else to worry about... maybe the fact that the back wall of my shed is about 80cm from a power pole.

----------


## DBR

> I've been known to do that (overthinking and worrying), yes... in this case though, with young children potentially exposed to something that is classified as cancerogenic, I think it's fairly justified to be a bit concerned and try to get some facts. Anyway, after doing a fair bit or research, I've basically come to the conclusion that, just as Bloss says, the risk in my case is completely negligible. It is apparently hard to establish a connection between creosote exposure and serious health problems even in groups of people who's been working with the stuff on a daily basis for many years. So I guess I better find something else to worry about... maybe the fact that the back wall of my shed is about 80cm from a power pole.

  Hey mate, yes with all the information available today its pretty easy to get caught up in the worry about carcinogens particularly if your always doing work around the house. the truth is that almost anything is carcinogenic however must take the context of the situation into account... 
We use fence palings (hardwood) as firewood in our pizza oven and also our home heating- very very rare to find hardwood palings that are treated with sump oil. I have never come across one yet that appears to be treated with sump oil/ diesel sump oil. This would have been a fairly uncommon practice.. Furthermore, fencing companies who fit fences frequently often sell the old hardwood palings as firewood-- its pretty easy to tell if they were treated as the surface will be dark grey to black If not, it has mostly 90% washed off from rain over the years or they simply weren't treated... 
In your case i wouldnt be concerned,, the timber is clearly untreated with anything. If it was it simply wouldnt be that colour. I work with a variety of timbers and all timber gives of a range of smell when worked. Nothing to be concerned about, i would use the offcuts as firewood, thats how confident i am that it would be ok.. 
The only thing i would be concerned about with older recycled timbers is possible asbestos contamination from nails pushing asbestos into the timber.. In your case minimal risk, but if you were working with this timber daily or making indoor furniture then perhaps more of a concern.

----------

