# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Cross Trade Work

## TwinTrade

I think this will probably get flagged to the other section but bare with me for a bit, cos this isn't about regulation or rules just good old fashioned safety. 
 I rewired a customer's light circuits today (whole house), and the first thing the owner told me was that her ex hubby had an AirCon business and had done quite a lot of the home wiring himself. Fine, no prob, now lets look in the roof.
The first thing that struck me was that most of the lighting circuit was done in 2.5mm T&E, bit weird but no drama, The more I disconnected the more problems I came across 
i.e.
Earth cables used as switch wires for a sensor light   NOOOOOOOOO 
Connections in roof without a j Box 
BLACK ACTIVES  yes you heard me right, the twin to the switch was wired opposite to normal 
Now, as I said, this isn't about why I can do it and he can't , it's just about letting people know that there are situations out there that are dangerous to licensed sparkies and especially to DIYers.

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## elkangorito

> I think this will probably get flagged to the other section but bare with me for a bit, cos this isn't about regulation or rules just good old fashioned safety. 
>  I rewired a customer's light circuits today (whole house), and the first thing the owner told me was that her ex hubby had an AirCon business and had done quite a lot of the home wiring himself. Fine, no prob, now lets look in the roof.
> The first thing that struck me was that most of the lighting circuit was done in 2.5mm T&E, bit weird but no drama, The more I disconnected the more problems I came across 
> i.e.
> Earth cables used as switch wires for a sensor light   NOOOOOOOOO 
> Connections in roof without a j Box 
> BLACK ACTIVES  yes you heard me right, the twin to the switch was wired opposite to normal 
> Now, as I said, this isn't about why I can do it and he can't , it's just about letting people know that there are situations out there that are dangerous to licensed sparkies and especially to DIYers.

  This may become a debate...I dunno!  
When I was a Facilities Manager (FM) for a large bank in Sydney (my last job in Australia before moving to Thailand), one of my colleagues was a "fridgy". He was also an FM.
We had a debate one day...it was about non-electrical trades carrying out electrical work on major plant equipment. The equipment in question was a chiller (medium size - 500kW). 
How did the debate start?
When I initially started at the site, I carried out an inspection of everything, which took me about 3 days.
Amongst a multitude of other problems, I noticed that a contactor for one of the chillers, had the incorrect size fuses (HRC) protecting the contactor. I made a few inquiries & found out that a chiller "upgrade" had been done by an air conditioning company & that all the electrical work had also been done by refrigeration/airconditioning mechanics (obviously to save money). I also found out that the electrical supply to the site had been "upgraded" (new transformer), which made matters worse. 
Nonetheless, I had the fuses immediately replaced with the correct size fuses.
This is when my colleague questioned me. ("You didn't need to replace the fuses.")
I tried to explain about "fault current" but the same old story kept coming back..."The cable size was big enough, the contactor was correctly sized. A fridgy is allowed to replace these items as it is a part of his job." I told him that this would have been ok in a domestic installation, due to the small fault current but he didn't understand "fault current". 
At the end of the day, "cross-trade" work is ok to a limit but when people start making assumptions based on limited knowledge, you end up with a mess.
Obviously, the guy who did the DIY wiring job, thought he knew something when quite clearly, he did not. 
I believe one of the worst things to have happened in Australia was allowing "cross-trade" work. It may be ok to a limit but usually it ends up with somedody thinking that they can do just about anything they want in the *other trade area.*

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## Bros

> The first thing that struck me was that most of the lighting circuit was done in 2.5mm T&E, bit weird but no drama,

  I can better that one, when my daughter bought an older house one of the GPO's was wired in 4 mm T&E. Luckly the GPO they connected to was the end of the run and it was a cavity wall so there was enough room.    

> Earth cables used as switch wires for a sensor light   NOOOOOOOOO

  Seen similar again with my daughters house of the earth of 3 core flex used in two way switch     

> BLACK ACTIVES  yes you heard me right, the twin to the switch was wired opposite to normal

  As I said before in the past you could have BLACK ACTIVES.   

> Now, as I said, this isn't about why I can do it and he can't , it's just about letting people know that there are situations out there that are dangerous to licensed sparkies and especially to DIYers.

  I grew up with all these changes and I know what was legal in the past but I wonder about the electricians in the future who have never heard that black can be active coming across an installation with this configuration let alone DIY's

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## dazzler

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64KW04601ts"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64KW04601ts[/ame]  :Wink:  :Tongue:

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## TwinTrade

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64KW04601ts

  not quite sure what this means??? 
any other sane person want to have a stab in the dark?

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## watson

Definately not sane, but I reckon it refers to the last section of Elkango's post  _I believe one of the worst things to have happened in Australia was allowing "cross-trade" work. It may be ok to a limit but usually it ends up with somedody thinking that they can do just about anything they want in the other trade area. 		 		 			 				___________________  
Like "Romance"..........that's my go on it.

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## TwinTrade

> Definately not sane, but I reckon it refers to the last section of Elkango's post  _I believe one of the worst things to have happened in Australia was allowing "cross-trade" work. It may be ok to a limit but usually it ends up with somedody thinking that they can do just about anything they want in the other trade area. 		 		 			 				___________________  
> Like "Romance"..........that's my go on it.

  i'm still lost

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## skot

TwinTrade,
I think dazzler is having a backhander towards people who he percieves are complaing about their job....as in the saying..
"Here is a violin and it's playing just for you"...mind you, that is what I can make out what the video might mean and if I am wrong I apologize to dazzler.

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## TwinTrade

> TwinTrade,
> I think dazzler is having a backhander towards people who he percieves are complaing about their job....as in the saying..
> "Here is a violin and it's playing just for you"...mind you, that is what I can make out what the video might mean and if I am wrong I apologize to dazzler.

  hey skot, i didn't realise i was complaining, but then again you can't please everyone

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## dazzler

> TwinTrade,
> I think dazzler is having a backhander towards people who he percieves are complaing about their job....as in the saying..
> "Here is a violin and it's playing just for you"...mind you, that is what I can make out what the video might mean and if I am wrong I apologize to dazzler.

  Cupid doll for skot  :Biggrin:   :2thumbsup:  
Not a backhander, just a wee little stir..... 
But try it......click on the youtube link, listen to the music and read the first post.....  :Tongue:

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## bugsy

its never as funny when you have to explain a joke  eh? :Doh:

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## Terrian

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...llest%20violin  http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_b...sages/188.html  http://pics.livejournal.com/fridgema...ic/000181p2/g5   :Wink:

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## rrobor

Forgive me if Im wrong but wouldnt a job big enough to have several trades working, not need to be inspected for compliance. It seems to me here that most of the examples given are home owners doing their own thing.  Or is it that the compliance check is not worth a sheet of the stuff Elkangorito dont like.  So to quote the altered Shakespere saying. "Methinks thou doth protest too much".

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## elkangorito

> Forgive me if Im wrong but wouldnt a job big enough to have several trades working, not need to be inspected for compliance. It seems to me here that most of the examples given are home owners doing their own thing.  Or is it that the compliance check is not worth a sheet of the stuff Elkangorito dont like.  So to quote the altered Shakespere saying. "Methinks thou doth protest too much".

  As a Facilities Manager & if you were my boss (or the government), I'd love you. It would mean that I wouldn't need to spend so much time inspecting jobs, making sure that they are compliant & generally ensuring that "good work practice" & "making good" has been carried out satisfactorily. 
On the other hand, domestic installations do not have Facility Managers to ensure such things. As a result, all domestic work must comply disregarding how many have worked on site. BTW (by the way), inspections are a thing of the past as a result of privatisation, which is yet another reason why DIY is illegal.

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## rrobor

I often wonder if you read before you write, I made a point that there seemed to be confusion in the post. On one hand the talk is cross trade work, but the  examples seem to be poor amateur work. So as usual you go off half cocked not reading the post. So can you tell me . Is this bad cross trade work and is an example of this, or is it not. My answer was if this job did get a compliance certificate with these flaws what was that worth when the job was a mess. So please read the posts I do before you jump to your conclusions again. Perhaps Ill give you the red spot.

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## TwinTrade

> I often wonder if you read before you write, I made a point that there seemed to be confusion in the post. On one hand the talk is cross trade work, but the  examples seem to be poor amateur work. So as usual you go off half cocked not reading the post. So can you tell me . Is this bad cross trade work and is an example of this, or is it not. My answer was if this job did get a compliance certificate with these flaws what was that worth when the job was a mess. So please read the posts I do before you jump to your conclusions again. Perhaps Ill give you the red spot.

  The example given was about an Air Con installer wiring his own house lights, yes it is amateur work but the reason behind the post was to show that sometimes a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.

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## elkangorito

> I often wonder if you read before you write, I made a point that there seemed to be confusion in the post. On one hand the talk is cross trade work, but the  examples seem to be poor amateur work. So as usual you go off half cocked not reading the post. So can you tell me . Is this bad cross trade work and is an example of this, or is it not. My answer was if this job did get a compliance certificate with these flaws what was that worth when the job was a mess. So please read the posts I do before you jump to your conclusions again. Perhaps Ill give you the red spot.

  If I have misunderstood you, please forgive me but I do find it a little difficult to decipher your posts.

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