# Forum Home Renovation Kitchens  Poly kitchen doors supplied scratched - advice?

## shiftybugger

Hi all, 
Have recently had a kitchen installed. Doors are painted gloss polyurethane. I inspected all painted doors and panels after installation and nearly every panel has at least minor scratches or scuffs on them, some more serious, and one or two that you can catch with your fingernail and through which you can see white paint underneath. Further, some panels have raised pimple like points where it looks like dust has gotten into the paint. Isn't poly supposed to be applied in a dust free booth? 
Is it reasonable to have expected that the kitchen company take these all back for a repaint or repair? Most of these scratches can't be seen half of the time, but when the angle of the light is right, they are hard to miss. 
While I am at it, we have had Caesarstone benchtops installed, Walnut, 40mm. The idea is that they should use a colour matched glue between the two 20mm pieces to make the 40mm, and when doing other joins. However, these guys appear to have used a white glue for most of it and just used the coloured glue on the edges. Net result is that there are parts where the white glue has made its way to the edge leaving a visible white line between two dark pieces of stone. There are only a few centimetres of this, but it stands out. 
They also didn't completely clean off the glue used for some of the joins, leaving patches of much darker stone. I can't seem to get the residue off or get the colour consistent. 
Again, is it reasonable to expect that this be replaced or repaired? 
Any advice appreciated.
Kris

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## jago

Yes & yes... take pictures and contact the kitchen company with your list of defects, start the ball rolling.

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## arms

> Hi all, 
> Have recently had a kitchen installed. Doors are painted gloss polyurethane. I inspected all painted doors and panels after installation and nearly every panel has at least minor scratches or scuffs on them, some more serious, and one or two that you can catch with your fingernail and through which you can see white paint underneath. Further, some panels have raised pimple like points where it looks like dust has gotten into the paint. Isn't poly supposed to be applied in a dust free booth? 
> Is it reasonable to have expected that the kitchen company take these all back for a repaint or repair? Most of these scratches can't be seen half of the time, but when the angle of the light is right, they are hard to miss. 
> While I am at it, we have had Caesarstone benchtops installed, Walnut, 40mm. The idea is that they should use a colour matched glue between the two 20mm pieces to make the 40mm, and when doing other joins. However, these guys appear to have used a white glue for most of it and just used the coloured glue on the edges. Net result is that there are parts where the white glue has made its way to the edge leaving a visible white line between two dark pieces of stone. There are only a few centimetres of this, but it stands out. 
> They also didn't completely clean off the glue used for some of the joins, leaving patches of much darker stone. I can't seem to get the residue off or get the colour consistent. 
> Again, is it reasonable to expect that this be replaced or repaired? 
> Any advice appreciated.
> Kris

  but i bet they were cheap

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## shiftybugger

> but i bet they were cheap

  Depends on your definition of cheap, I suppose. They were cheaper than other kitchen places in Canberra, but prices down here are insane. 
Would you call $15k for a kitchen cheap? 
I don't think it was cheap enough not to expect a professional job.

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## r3nov8or

how recent is recent? Re the doors, the longer you leave it the more they will say the scratches etc have happened due to daily use. Get on it.   
Re the benchtop, fixing this will likely be a major piece of work, and you may not actually get a better result in other ways. e.g. the odd chip due to the dismantling and additional handling, which you could again complain about, and fighting long enough may actually result in the perfection we all expect. But it could be a long fight. 
I'd opt for a compromise. 
So assuming the doors are more of an issue that the benchtop show them everything, and ensure they know how disappointed you are in the benchtop, but in the interests of compromise 'settle' for them fixing only the doors, and accept the benchtop. 
Cos I reckon you will be able to find a dark stain or ink that will take to the glue and that will be that fixed. You could even start with a permanent ink fine marking pen. Even a little more of the dark glue they should have used might help. But don't start that until they accept there is an issue to be dealt with.

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## shiftybugger

> how recent is recent? Re the doors, the longer you leave it the more they will say the scratches etc have happened due to daily use. Get on it.

  Installed this Monday (so 3 days ago). I raised this with the boss while the panels were still going up as I noticed a scratched panel waiting to go up. He didn't sound impressed and didn't offer a solution. He has to come out on Saturday to install a panel that he had noticed was damaged and didn't even deliver on Monday, so I will show him then.   

> I'd opt for a compromise.

  This might be the way to go. I have gotten some of the glue marks off with metho. I think with some more elbow grease I might be able to get it looking good. I may also be able to darked the white lines enough to live with. 
We'll see how it goes on Saturday. 
Cheers,
Kris

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## m6sports

have you already paid in full for the work 
if not dont pay any more until the problems are fixed  
but if you have just hope he is willing to fix it  
if you arnt happy with what he offers you might need to contact Department of fair trading but i would use this as a last option

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## pb02

The flat pack kitchen I put in had plastic wrap over all the cupboards, not sure why they couldn't do the same with yours and peel it off once its all done.  
I had stone tops put in recently too and as hard as I try I can't see a join anywhere. Sounds like a pretty ordinary job on everything. How do the doors and cupboards line up? I would run a level over everything and come up with a list of everything unsatisfactory before getting them out and showing them the whole list!

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## shiftybugger

Time for an update. 
I spoke with the kitchen guy about it, he straight up didn't believe me and didn't sound happy. He only gave me one word answers for the rest of the conversation. 
He finally came over this afternoon for a look. I pointed out the problems with the bench. He inspected the rest of the joins and went on about how good a job it was. That was his answer. Basically, can't do anything about it, and the rest of it is a top job. 
He looked at the panels. Just about all of them have scratches or scuffs on them, but each one he looked at he kept saying that he couldn't see anything. I tried to explain to him that most of the scratches aren't visible during dayling, that they are very noticable under lights at night. Didn't seem to care. Said, "If I have to look this hard to find them, they aren't worth worrying about". I could still see the scratches regardless, and the ones that I did get him to admit he could see, a bunch of parallel lines where something had scraped against it, he passed off as "Polishing marks". Didn't say anything about the chipped panel where white paint underneath is showing. He is getting the painter to ring me and take a look. 
I'm not holding out any hope that this will end well. I am still waiting for a few doors and such. I hope it doesn't end so bad that he doesn't even finish. 
So, next question. As I haven't paid in full yet, if he refuses to fix this stuff, would it be reasonable for me to hire someone else to do so and deduct the cost from what I still owe? 
Cheers,
Kris

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## m6sports

> So, next question. As I haven't paid in full yet, if he refuses to fix this stuff, would it be reasonable for me to hire someone else to do so and deduct the cost from what I still owe?

  YES but make sure you notify him in written of the problems that you want fixed 
and a deadline in which you want the work to be completed by  
or you will be getting someone else to finish and repair the work with the balance that is owed to him 
and send it by registered post  
this is something that would be a last measure i would be contacting fair trading for advice  
Good luck

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## shiftybugger

Another question, perhaps a painter may be able to answer. Re the 'polishing marks' which the kitchen guy claims he can see: Am I correct in my understanding that gloss 2 pac polyurethane is generally not polished after painting? Isn't the gloss finish due to the painting process itself? 
I'd like to have as much info as possible so that I can refute his claims if he presses them. 
Also, thanks m6sports for the info. I want to stand my ground on this, but I want to make sure that I am right to do so before I get all pig-headed =) 
Cheers,
Kris

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## shiftybugger

While I'm testing for reasonableness, here are some more. 
I originally opted for Poly doors in my kitchen as I didn't like the sipple effect that you get with vinyl wrap. All of the examples of poly kitchends that I saw had a mirror effect that was almost without distortion. Is this too much for me to have expected? 
Should a properly done paint job on a kitchen be free from the following?:
- Scratches/scuffs in the paint
- raised dust spots in the paint
- circular sanding marks on the mdf underneath visible in the paint 
Cheers,
Kris

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## Sybarite

yes, yes and yes. 
Paint should be a good gloss off the gun but if there are imperfections they can often be polished out. 
Having said that, and in no way defending any of the problems you have found, the actual "quality" standards for this sort of work seem to be pretty ordinary. 
I have been led to believe that, according to the BSA anyway, any imperfections need to be noticeable from a distance of at least 1500mm. 
Joins in stone or aggregate tops need only have gaps of 10mm or less. 
I won't say that the above is acceptable (or gospel) but it would indicate that some fabricators/suppliers at least believe they have a pretty large margin to hide behind if they want to get stroppy. 
We have had a few problems with poor quality paint from suppliers before and it has always just been a matter of sticking politely to our requirements until the job has been made good - a lot of finish problems can be fixed on site to an acceptable standard. 
Getting someone else in to fix things would be a very last resort, but you might be able to get another supplier in to have a look for an objective opinion...even if you have to pay them for their consultation. 
Cheers, 
Earl

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## Gaza

i think that you by saying you can not see in daylight, sort of kills your claim as it is demed as acceptable under the standard. 
another company will not touch the poly except to resand bare and spare from sealer as they dont know what product was used the first time. 
if you are that worked up by this, take the doors off and drop them off to guys factory and tell him that once they are fixed you will pay him. 
its easy to do another coat

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## shiftybugger

HE can't see them. I can see the worst ones in daylight. If he offered to fix those worst ones, I might accept that. 
I have found another company who will respray the lot. Would be a lot of work to tear it all down first though. Would it be reasonable to charge him (deduct from owed) for my time if I have to pull parts of the kitchen down and put it back together to get this done? What rate do you think? 
At the end of the day, I paid for a job well done, with me not doing the work. If the job is not well done or if I have to do a heap of work, then I am not getting what he quoted me for and thus he needs to be paid less. 
Cheers,
Kris.

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## arms

> HE can't see them. I can see the worst ones in daylight. If he offered to fix those worst ones, I might accept that. 
> I have found another company who will respray the lot. Would be a lot of work to tear it all down first though. Would it be reasonable to charge him (deduct from owed) for my time if I have to pull parts of the kitchen down and put it back together to get this done? What rate do you think? 
> At the end of the day, I paid for a job well done, with me not doing the work. If the job is not well done or if I have to do a heap of work, then I am not getting what he quoted me for and thus he needs to be paid less. 
> Cheers,
> Kris.

  if you opt to take the doors and panels to another company to repaint you are libel for not only the expense of the respray and your labour but you are still libel for the full amount of the monies owing to the first company ,as sybriate has stated it sounds like you have found one of the lower end kitchen companies that has gone in cheap and simply cant afford to fix anything up to a standard that would be acceptable the first time ,and i say again 'bet they were cheap"

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## shiftybugger

> if you opt to take the doors and panels to another company to repaint you are libel for not only the expense of the respray and your labour but you are still libel for the full amount of the monies owing to the first company

  I can't see the logic in a tradesman having absolutely no responsibility towards me, and me having no recourse. I'm sure tradesmen would like it that way, but it appears that the ACT Office of Regulatory Services disagree. ORS told me that paying another company to finish the work should these guys refuse is perfectly acceptable, and that I need not be liable. 
Obviously, this would be a last resort. Nothing would make my weekend more than receiving a phone call this morning telling me that the bench guys are coming around and that the panels are all going back for a respray. In the event that doesn't happen though, what other options do I have? 
Seriously, if anyone can suggest another way to go about this (assuming the 'politely persist' method fails), I'm all ears. 
Cheers,
Kris

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## m6sports

Arms it doesnt matter if it was the cheapest Quote  
the quality of work should still be as good 
i would understand different types of fittings used in the cheapest quote 
but i dont think you should accept scratched doors just because it was cheaper

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## arms

> Arms it doesnt matter if it was the cheapest Quote  
> the quality of work should still be as good 
> i would understand different types of fittings used in the cheapest quote 
> but i dont think you should accept scratched doors just because it was cheaper

  you are missing my point ,when a job is done on the cheap something has to give to make it cheaper ,in this case the company has probably done a shifty with the quality of the spray job and for that matter has probably subbed the hardware as well but thats hard to notice .and only when ALL avenues for the origional contractor to fix his work have been exausted can the owner take remedial action on the work and chargeback the kitchen maker.
 and yes it does matter if it was a cheap job ,the quality and workmanship will never be equal to a sensibly priced kitchen 
"go in cheap and walk out poor "

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## r3nov8or

> Depends on your definition of cheap, I suppose. They were cheaper than other kitchen places in Canberra, but prices down here are insane. 
> Would you call $15k for a kitchen cheap? 
> I don't think it was cheap enough not to expect a professional job.

  I don't consider that cheap at all, but it depends on the size, complexity of 'special requests', inclusions/exclusions etc.

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## shiftybugger

The painter came around today. He said that the kitchen guy had told him that I wasn't happy with the finish. I let him know that my biggest concern was the scratches and scuffs. He saw all of the scratches before I could even point them out and immediately organised to come around early next year to touch up the chipped part and polish the rest out. All invoiced to the kitchen guy. 
A good outcome in my opinion. 
Next to see the stone mason. 
Thanks for all of the info and discussion people. Knowing what options I have available makes it a bit easier to press my case. 
Cheers,
Kris

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## cabuckley

I cringed all the way through this thread. I can feel your frustration. How did you find this crowd? Were they recommended to you? Did you ask for references? We're in the process of choosing a kitchen company and it fills me with dread.

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## Eden

please bear in mind if you do anything to the items before they are paid for in full you will be playing with  "HIS" property and he will refuse to sort anything out at all  
until you have paid in "full" he has a "lien" on the items and that means he still "owns" them 
so do NOT touch anything until you sort out things and have some form of mutually agreed upon resolution    
an example ---   
I painted the interior of a unit and during this time asked for the cat to be removed from the room that i was working on ( asked several times !!! ) 
came in the next morning and the cat had rubbed along the bottom of two walls and a corner also 
the client TOLD me that i needed to fix this and i stated that i would be happy to if they paid for the extra time to sand the cat hair (lots of) out and repaint, they were not happy to do this so i finished the last room and handed over the invoice 
she called the next day and TOLD me that she would not pay extra and that she would not pay the invoice until i fixed the problem 
I sent an email asking when she had the next full day off work , she responded to the email with next monday  
i then sent another email explaining that i will be there 7 am monday  "TO REMOVE MY PLASTER AND PAINT"  with the police present to oversee access if needed.  
or she could pay the invoice  
or she could pay the invoice and a little extra to cover the sanding and painting  
--------------- 
money was in the bank by the next morning with a little extra !   
so no "touchy wouchy" until the issues are sorted  
cheers 
Eden Leverington 
HIRE A HUBBY SEMAPHORE
BLD 221276

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## shiftybugger

@Eden 
1. The situation that you described is quite different to mine. I haven't done anything, he did the bad job. 
2. I wouldn't have fallen for that. I would have let you in once you had a court order and the sheriff to enforce it. That said, I wouldn't have been that unreasonable if my cat had done the damage... 
@cabuckley 
I was put on to these guys by a friend who had used them. I went and had a look at their kitchen and it was well done. 
I really don't think that my situation has been typical of their work. In the end he has come around and he seems to want to fix everything. It isn't actually fixed yet due to Christmas, but words are there for now. He even asked me not to pay in full until it is sorted out and has offered to do some work for me (ripping some skirting board) for free because he has "stuffed me around a bit". 
Fingers crossed that I am still this happy by the end of the last chapter. 
Cheers,
Kris.

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