# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Power Factor - for the uninitiated.

## elkangorito

Power Factor - for the uninitiated.
It's something that effects all electrical installations. But how does it affect the average domestic consumer? 
The last time I was in Australia (about 3 years ago), domestic consumers were not being charged for poor Power Factor. I have a feeling that this may change in the future as electrical power becomes more expensive to produce & the world's resources diminish. 
Since domestic consumers aren't charged for poor Power Factor (PF), why should they be worried? Quite simply, poor PF will mean that larger cable sizes & switch sizes will be needed. Clearly, this an extra cost but generally does not affect the average domestic consumer. 
There are some unscrupulous people who try to sell "energy saving" devices to unwitting consumers. Most of these devices do not work, although they are mostly based on correcting poor PF. The principle of these devices is good & correct but the size is usually very wrong. 
The other thing is that all electromechanical Watt-Hour meters, only measure "True Power", & therefore do not recognise PF.
Essentially, PF does not affect the average domestic consumer but if one wishes to use a transformer or a generator, it is advisable to know something about PF. See below.   
PF affects many things differently. As such, some types of equipment are rated in VA (volt amps), which does not take into account PF. This equipment usually supplies power to other equipment. Examples of this supply equipment are transformers & generators. The reason why this equipment is rated as such (VA) is because the type of load can never be forecast, thus the need to specify volts & amps as the limiting factors.
As an example, a single phase transformer capable of delivering 100 amps at 500 volts would be rated at 50kVA. If the PF of any given load was 0.5, the maximum power output of the transformer would be 25kW. At a PF of 0.8, the power output would be 40kW. In both cases, a full-load current of 100 amps would be flowing & the conductors would need to be able to handle 100 amps.

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## rrobor

Power factor is not charged for for a domestc consumer because PF is a product of induction IE electric motors and the like and most of the load of a houshold is resistive Power factor is energy loss due to an inductor not being purely inductive, Its capacitive between winds and resistive in the winds there is also hysteresis and other little effects. Now you can compensate by adding capacitance. Current leads in an inductor and lags in a capacitor. By doing that you can get a phase shift to correct the discrepancy of phase error between current and voltage. Digging into the far past from memory FR= 1/2Pii X the root of LC, so getting the correct values is a bit tough. There is also another issue. If capacitors are left in circuit the generator at the power station can start to have issues. This was found due to milions of TVs  etc left on stand-by and all having capacitive filtering. The majority of switches fail due to the arc at switch on. Modern TV solves this by having a zero crossover switch which closes when the AC is at zero, they now use a small cheap switch which never fails. So will housholders be charged for PF, I dont think so.

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## ScottH

Well, Rrobor, as an example, CFLs have a pretty bad power factor. Around .5 I believe. A cities worth of houses all merrily lit up with CFLs could well be something the utility companies would leap on. 
 And the roll out of smart meters (a quick google shows that the 3 phase ones definitely provide power factor data as standard) provides a perfect opportunity for them to do just that.

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## murray44

Scott, 
You answered something I was curious about. Can the power companies tell if you are running lots of stuff with bad PF. 
Am I right in saying that normal power meters measure resistive only? 
You can't be charged for Power Factor (the statement is non-sensical) but with smart meters they will be able to charge you for the full power you use (the reactive part, not just the resistive part). 
Is my theory right, it's been 25 years since I learnt all about that. 
Murray

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## elkangorito

My comments in blue.   

> Power factor is not charged for for a domestc consumer because PF is a product of induction IE electric motors and the like and most of the load of a houshold is resistive Power factor is energy loss due to an inductor not being purely inductive,  These days, rrobor me old china plate, things are a little different. Basically, "harmonics" & PF are related & now are big problems for electricity providers. CFL's & switch-mode power supplies are literally everywhere in the modern home. These devices are responsible for very poor PF's. 
>  Its capacitive between winds and resistive in the winds there is also hysteresis and other little effects. Now you can compensate by adding capacitance. Current leads in an inductor and lags in a capacitor. By doing that you can get a phase shift to correct the discrepancy of phase error between current and voltage. Digging into the far past from memory FR= 1/2Pii X the root of LC, so getting the correct values is a bit tough. There is also another issue. If capacitors are left in circuit the generator at the power station can start to have issues. This was found due to milions of TVs  etc left on stand-by and all having capacitive filtering. The majority of switches fail due to the arc at switch on. Modern TV solves this by having a zero crossover switch which closes when the AC is at zero, they now use a small cheap switch which never fails. So will housholders be charged for PF, I dont think so.

  Thanks for the above info.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   Are you trying to "stupify us with science" or "baffle us with bullshyte"?  I eagerly await your next amazing comment.

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## rrobor

No Im finished, If you wish you can explain power factor, you started the thread but didnt write one thing about what it actually was. So please you have your say as to what it is and why you correct with capacitors, be interesting to read your theories if its other than phase correction between I and V

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## elkangorito

> No Im finished....

  Good  :2thumbsup:

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## ScottH

> Scott, 
> You answered something I was curious about. Can the power companies tell if you are running lots of stuff with bad PF. 
> Am I right in saying that normal power meters measure resistive only? 
> You can't be charged for Power Factor (the statement is non-sensical) but with smart meters they will be able to charge you for the full power you use (the reactive part, not just the resistive part). 
> Is my theory right, it's been 25 years since I learnt all about that. 
> Murray

  For current domestic meters, most if not all will only measure true power - ie, the actual watts. Any reactive portion is 'lost' revenue to the utilities.
So yes, you can think of the power being measured as solely the resistive portion.
From the brief googling I did, the 3 phase meters (which will only be used on larger domestic installations anyways) will have the ability to take power factor into account - and bill accordingly if they wish.
As i said, this is only what i gathered from google and is by no means authoritative!

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## elkangorito

A great answer Scott  :2thumbsup:

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## elkangorito

For those who may be interested, an "electromechanical" meter is one that has a spinning disk. These meters can only measure "True Power" & do not measure PF. 
A pic of an electromechanical KWH can be seen here; http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...65_%281%29.jpg

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## rrobor

Sorry had to clear up one point. Electricity is the drift or flow of electrons along a conductor. That was lesson 1, day 1 in any electrical teaching.  Now Watt developed a method of measuring that, the Watt. A Watt is not inductive, resistive or capacitive, its just a Watt or the power used. Power factor at its basic is waste in the system. The power factor we can correct for is in inductive motors when running, there is a waste of energy. You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing. Same as switching off the lights or not heating an empty room etc. But there is no magical beast that you dont pay for, each electron that passes through your meter gets counted and your quarterly bill shows every one.

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## elkangorito

> Sorry had to clear up one point. Electricity is the drift or flow of electrons along a conductor. That was lesson 1, day 1 in any electrical teaching.  Now Watt developed a method of measuring that, the Watt. A Watt is not inductive, resistive or capacitive, its just a Watt or the power used. Power factor at its basic is waste in the system. The power factor we can correct for is in inductive motors when running, there is a waste of energy. *You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing.* Same as switching off the lights or not heating an empty room etc. But there is no magical beast that you dont pay for, each electron that passes through your meter gets counted and your quarterly bill shows every one.

  Are you sure about this? 
Anyway, here is your new menu for your next anticipated meal; 
Entree - Hats Kilpatrick or Hats Mornay.
Main - Braised Afghan Hat in garlic sauce served with Cuscus, glazed carrots & ManHATten salad.
Dessert - Hat Sorbe in strawberry, lemon, lime or Durian flavours.

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## Gooner

> .......each electron that passes through your meter gets counted and your quarterly bill shows every one.

  Assumming a constant supply voltage of 230V, it takes 4.3478 Amps to make a Kw of usage. 1 Amp has 6.242x10^18 electrons. Therefore 2.7139 x 10^19 electrons per Kw. 
I am charged 14.76 cents per Kw. Therefore I am being charged 5.44 x 10^-19 cents per electron. 
... but I dont see the number of electrons on my electricity bill, and certainly the total bill amount is not rounded to 19 decimal places, which means I am paying for electrons I am not using as I am sure they are rounding up!!  :Shock:  
Should I contact my electricty supplier? 
Also, those electrons are recycled and reused. I don't actually "consume" them. I'm just utilizing their movement, same as putting a paddle wheel in a river. I'm not actually consuming the water... so why am I being charged for electrons? 
It just doesn't make sense...  Is there anywhere you can buy electrons at a bulk discount and feed them into your switchboard? Does Bunnings or Mitre10 sell electrons?

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## murray44

> Sorry had to clear up one point. Electricity is the drift or flow of electrons along a conductor. That was lesson 1, day 1 in any electrical teaching.

  That's strange. I learnt about Current flow, not electricity flow (whatever that is) on day 1.  
I also learnt on day 2 that you had Electron Flow and Conventional Current flow. 
You should have stayed for day 2 Rrobor! 
Gooner, I have most things in my shed, I'll hunt around for soem electrons, how many million do you need. I'll mail them to you. No wait, I'll email them to you, at the speed of light...almost. (let's not start another argument)

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## rrobor

OK as elcangorito has nothing constructive to say he reverts to insult. If you have any arguement please make it, insults are for children. Gooner you assume too much the amp is a measure of current flow, it is not a measure of time If you are referring to the ampere hour that is a measure of flow for an hour and as you are charged by the number shown. You exactly prove my point, you are charged for how many you let pass the meter. As to they are not used just recycled, argue that with your supplier. To Murray, oh dear  you bring out the oldest rabbit of all. When man didnt understand  the atom he created a notion that a source of high potential had some energy that migrated to a source of low potential. That is conventional current flow. Unfortunately someone descovered the electron and we descovered they flowed in the opposite direction. and called that electron flow. Conventional current users when cornered then talked of hole migration. perhaps you want to try that?.

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## elkangorito

> You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing.

  I'm waiting for you to prove this to be correct. Since you are not correct (as usual), I suggest you select a nice table (probably near the hat rack), peruse "your new menu" & get ready for the feast of a lifetime.  :Happyb:

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## chrisp

> You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing.

  Not true.  Most domestic power users pay for kWh (energy) not current. 
For a little more detail on power factor, we all know that "ac" is "alternating current" and that the polarity changes though the ac sinusoidal cycle, for half the cycle the voltage is positive, and for the other half it is negative.  When we connect a purely resistive load, the current is I=V/R for each and every point over the sinusoidal cycle - i.e. the current is "in phase" with the voltage - when we have positive voltage, we have positive current; conversely when the voltage is negative, we have negative current.   
For a resistive load, the power is P=VxI.  
Note that +ve x +ve = +ve and -ve x -ve = +ve 
So the power flow in a resistive load is always positive (or zero - but not negative).  You can plot out the voltage and current as two sinusoids and manually multiply then together.  The result is a series of positive portions of the sinusoid (like the negative half is reflected in to the positive domain.) 
When we connect a "reactive" load, the current either leads, or lags, the voltage and for a portion of the cycle there is a reverse energy flow (i.e. negative power) in part of the cycle.  Effectively the load temporary stores some energy and returns it later in the cycle.  This results is extra current flowing along the wires that isn't actually used by the load - it just bounces backwards and forwards, but nonetheless it is current and it must be allowed for in the cabling and in the electricity infrastructure (and it causes extra IR losses). 
power factor (pf) is simply the ratio between the "apparent power" (i.e. rms V x rms I) and the "real power" (that actual power "really" used rms (VxI)).  A purely resistive load has a pf = 1. 
For interest, industrial users are often billed for real and reactive power.  Some contracts are x$ per kWh real + y$ per kWh reactive + $z per kWh peak (over the  month/quarter).  They are encouraged to minimise their reactive power, and to minimise their peak power draw. 
EDIT: I've attached a couple of diagrams that may help with understanding the above.  I think the important feature to look for in the reactive loads (for example, the inductive load diagram I have attached) is there is some negative energy in the power plot.  Purely resistive loads do not have the negative energy bit.

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## Gooner

> Gooner you assume too much the amp is a measure of current flow, it is not a measure of time If you are referring to the ampere hour that is a measure of flow for an hour and as you are charged by the number shown.

  Yes you are correct in that I should be referring to amp-hours. And therefore the calculations still hold, but are out by a factor of 3,600. Therefore 9.770x10^22 electrons per kW assuming 230V supply...and therefore I am paying 1.51x10^-22 cents per electron... 
I'm glad we cleared that up as I was wondering why I was paying so much for an electron!

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## rrobor

Crisp, took me a time reading that to find the flaw You correctly state that you pay for KWH now ohms law is W= Amps times Volts so if you pay per 1000 units of Amps X Volts per hour then yes you are paying for electrons exciting your meter. And yes its AC so its the quantity going in and out its not just aone way procession. As to current leading or lagging in an inductor, sorry dont understand that, and if that was the case power factor correction capacitors would not work.
 To Elkangorito.  Again nothing to say, so again childish insults.

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## chrisp

> As to current leading or lagging in an inductor, sorry dont understand that, and if that was the case power factor correction capacitors would not work.

  rrobor, 
An inductive load, or a load with a predominantly inductive reactive component, will result is the current "lagging" the voltage.  i.e. the peak in the current sinusoid will come after ("lags") the peak in the voltage sinusoid.  A capacitive load, or a load with a predominantly capacitive reactive component, will result in the current waveform "leading" the voltage waveform.  i.e. the peak in the current occurs before ("leads") the peak in the voltage.   
The value of a "power factor correction" capacitor is chosen to provide "lead" to counteract the "lag" caused by the inductive component of the load.  If we had a load that had a predominately capacitive reactive component, we'd need a "power factor correction inductor" to restore the power factor closer to unity. 
Mathematically, in the case of "steady state sinusoidal excitation" (i.e. after all the turn-on have transients decayed away)  the "real" power is in the real number domain, whereas the reactive power is in the "imaginary" number domain.  Together, the real and imaginary components form a "complex" number.  Mathematically, the "power factor correction" is just a way of nulling out the "imaginary" components of the power flow to leave purely "real" power.

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## rrobor

Yep can not argue with that. well explained and for me its spot on.

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## elkangorito

So rrobor, do you think that we pay for "apparent power" if we use KWH meters that only measure "true power"?

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## rrobor

Apparently you do, so why not be a happy chappy and believe as you like and not be like some dag trailing behind me.

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## watson

Be a little nice fellers please.

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## elkangorito

> Apparently you do, so why not be a happy chappy and believe as you like and not be like some dag trailing behind me.

  An electromechanical KWH meter (induction disc meter) will only measure "true power". It cannot & does not measure "apparent power". As a result, one does not pay for poor Power Factor.
This is what I believe. 
But you seem to think otherwise (see below). Would you like to explain why you think so? OOps. Sorry. I see that you have explained..."little electrons" etc. Sorry but you are incorrect.  

> You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing.

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## rrobor

Charging for power factor  is not  charging for some usage the can not be found. Charging for poor power factor is due to the need the supplier has to provide resources to cater to the demand an inductor makes at peaks. Say The average demand is 1A on a peak it may be 2A. The supplier is only paid for the average but has to resource to cover the peak. This is a rough simple explanation and as crisp explained if you really wish it to the last degree you need a lot of calculations

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## elkangorito

This is what you said (see below quote).  

> You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing.

  I take it that your below comment means that you believe that "domestic users" actually pay for the excess current used if the installation has a poor Power Facter. Is this correct? Is this what you are saying?   

> Charging for power factor  is not  charging for some usage the can not be found. Charging for poor power factor is due to the need the supplier has to provide resources to cater to the demand an inductor makes at peaks. Say The average demand is 1A on a peak it may be 2A. The supplier is only paid for the average but has to resource to cover the peak. This is a rough simple explanation and as crisp explained if you really wish it to the last degree you need a lot of calculations

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## Smurf

> Crisp, took me a time reading that to find the flaw You correctly state that you pay for KWH now ohms law is W= Amps times Volts so if you pay per 1000 units of Amps X Volts per hour then yes you are paying for electrons exciting your meter. And yes its AC so its the quantity going in and out its not just aone way procession. As to current leading or lagging in an inductor, sorry dont understand that, and if that was the case power factor correction capacitors would not work.
> To Elkangorito. Again nothing to say, so again childish insults.

  Normal domestic electricity meters record kWh not kVA and as such the increased current is not paid for by consumers. Technically, it is certainly possible to charge on the basis of kVA and this is done with many industrial consumers, but it's not how most households pay for power - they are charged on the basis of kWh not kVA.

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## rrobor

Why can you not understand what is plain English and continue to harass. Where did I say ordinary consumers pay a PF levy. I stated heavy users are charged a levy, not because they used your invisable energy but because they create a demand beyond that of their use. Now is this clear. I have tried to finish this and Noel is teed off with it so please stop nit picking.

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## elkangorito

> Why can you not understand what is plain English and continue to harass. _Where did I say ordinary consumers pay a PF levy._ I stated heavy users are charged a levy, not because they used your invisable energy but because they create a demand beyond that of their use. Now is this clear. I have tried to finish this and Noel is teed off with it so please stop nit pickibg.

  You are completely incredible!!!
You said this  in the below quote:   

> You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing.

  An induction disc KWH meter (electromechanical) has 2 coils within it...one is for voltage & the other(s) is/are for current. 
At "unity Power Factor", the fluxes in the coils are 90 degrees out of phase. This creates a torque, which then spins the disc. 
As Power Factor is reduced (becomes worse), this phase displacement also reduces, which reduces the amount of torque on the disc. The result of this is that the disc spins slower (less "true power" being used) at lower Power Factors. 
In the "old days", very poor Power Factors could actually make these meters spin backwards but this problem has since been rectified. 
Conclusion.
If & only if, an induction disc KWH meter is used, "true power" is the only thing that is measured & therefore, the only thing that the user is charged for.

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## ScottH

> Sorry had to clear up one point. Electricity is the drift or flow of electrons along a conductor. That was lesson 1, day 1 in any electrical teaching.  Now Watt developed a method of measuring that, the Watt. A Watt is not inductive, resistive or capacitive, its just a Watt or the power used. Power factor at its basic is waste in the system. The power factor we can correct for is in inductive motors when running, there is a waste of energy. You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing. Same as switching off the lights or not heating an empty room etc. But there is no magical beast that you dont pay for, each electron that passes through your meter gets counted and your quarterly bill shows every one.

  With respect - not quite, sir.
Meters measure watts, not volt-amps.
A watt refers to power input(generated), transferred, or output (used), and can be thought of as solely resistive loads. 
A VA (volt-amp) refers to the combination of the resistive load and any reactance in the circuit - such as your inductive motors, or my CFLs.  
The reactive amps are the magical beasts that you do not pay for. The energy company still pays to generate a significant portion of this extra current, even though your meter doesn't count these electrons. I'll leave the heisenberg principle out of this, despite my inclination to baffle with bull feces :Smilie:

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## elkangorito

> With respect - not quite, sir. *Meters measure watts, not volt-amps.*
> A watt refers to power input(generated), transferred, or output (used), and can be thought of as solely resistive loads. 
> A VA (volt-amp) refers to the combination of the resistive load and any reactance in the circuit - such as your inductive motors, or my CFLs.  
> The reactive amps are the magical beasts that you do not pay for. The energy company still pays to generate a significant portion of this extra current, even though your meter doesn't count these electrons. I'll leave the heisenberg principle out of this, despite my inclination to baffle with bull feces

  Obviously Scott, you mean the older electromechanical type of meter. The new electronic meters can measure everything.  :Smilie:

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## rrobor

You know I have a serious question here. Who pays for the power used to run the meter? With luck we can keep that going ad infinitum and bore everyone witless.

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## elkangorito

> You know I have a serious question here. Who pays for the power used to run the meter? With luck we can keep that going ad infinitum and bore everyone witless.

  Do I detect "back-pedalling" & avoidance? 
I sincerely want to know why you think that the domestic user pays for "everything" going through the meter. See below.   

> You have little electrons toddling through your meter which YOU PAY for that have done nothing.

  Key words;
Hat, hunger, sauce, menu. 
Have a good'n  :Whistling2:

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## Gooner

Geezus Elkangorito... you certainly are persistent.....

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## elkangorito

> Geezus Elkangorito... you certainly are persistent.....

  You know what they say..."Curiousity killed the cat but satisfaction brought him back".  :Biggrin:  
BTW, I'm only as persistent as the other person. 
All I want to know is, in a detailed technical explanation, why a domestic user is charged for "every electron" that passes through their meter. That's all. It's a simple request based on the assumption of another (as quoted). Else, the other person can admit that they are incorrect. 
If you make a mistake with something, how do you deal with it? Do you spend time dodging & weaving in order to try to "save face" or do you admit it & move on? 
For the sake of people viewing this forum, I feel that it is important to try to maintain correctly supplied information, if possible.

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## Ashore

> For the sake of people viewing this forum, I feel that it is important to try to maintain correctly supplied information, if possible.

  Glad to see your've changed your attitude  :2thumbsup:

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## rrobor

If I answered to that you would come back again and again, You dont care one whit as to the question so for pitties sake give it away. And yes you will have a reply, you have to. But as to me answering questions, get a life, with you its not about that.

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## elkangorito

I do recall someone saying "I'm finished" but that was some posts ago.  :Rolleyes:  
In the meantime, the below quote describes how an induction-disc meter works. It DOES NOT take into account Power Factor. It CANNOT measure anything else except "True Power". Subsequently, people who have these meters WILL NOT be charged for excess current due to poor Power Factor.   

> An induction disc KWH meter (electromechanical) has 2 coils within it...one is for voltage & the other(s) is/are for current. 
> At "unity Power Factor", the fluxes in the coils are 90 degrees out of phase. This creates a torque, which then spins the disc. 
> As Power Factor is reduced (becomes worse), this phase displacement also reduces, which reduces the amount of torque on the disc. The result of this is that the disc spins slower (less "true power" being used) at lower Power Factors. 
> In the "old days", very poor Power Factors could actually make these meters spin backwards but this problem has since been rectified. 
> Conclusion.
> If & only if, an induction disc KWH meter is used, "true power" is the only thing that is measured & therefore, the only thing that the user is charged for.

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## Smurf

> Why can you not understand what is plain English and continue to harass. Where did I say ordinary consumers pay a PF levy. I stated heavy users are charged a levy, not because they used your invisable energy but because they create a demand beyond that of their use. Now is this clear. I have tried to finish this and Noel is teed off with it so please stop nit picking.

  The costs associated with a poor power factor are "built in" to domestic power rates. So we all pay those costs collectively regardless of our actual household power factor. In the same way most households aren't charged directly for their contribution to system peak demand - they just pay a flat rate per kWh. :Smilie:

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## BRADFORD

When I checked this thread this morning an advertisement for the *Wattson Energy Meter* was there large as life beside it  
I hope there is no conflict of interest going on here Watson.
Looks like he Wattson Meter measures all this invisable power. 
BTW you have plenty to choose from when you select the funniest post this week. 
Regards Bradford

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## watson

Watt they don't know is that the *Wattson Energy Meter* works on steam*.  *

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## Gooner

> You know what they say..."Curiousity killed the cat but satisfaction brought him back".  
> BTW, I'm only as persistent as the other person.

  Have you ever read/seen Aesop's fable about the North Wind and the Sun? Perhaps worth a look?  :Smilie:   :Smilie:  
(P.S. It's no mere coincidence that the man in the fable wears a hat) 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svhTTYeignc"]YouTube - The North Wind and the Sun: A Fable by Aesop (1972)[/ame]

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## Ashore

> The costs associated with a poor power factor are "built in" to domestic power rates. So we all pay those costs collectively regardless of our actual household power factor. In the same way most households aren't charged directly for their contribution to system peak demand - they just pay a flat rate per kWh.

   Spot on which is why heavy industries are charged diffrently , espically if they have a lot of welders, or were 
The problem now is with these smart meters they are installing in NSW , (and in the end we will all have one )  I got one 2 years ago and there was nothing I could do about it ( believe me I tried ) they are charging
2-8pm 25.1cents per kwh
7am-2pm & 8pm-10pm 8.9 cents per kwh
other times 5.1 cents per kwh
so the only time you have real load they charge like wounded bulls :Cry:

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## looseless

> Have you ever read/seen Aesop's fable about the North Wind and the Sun? Perhaps worth a look?   
> (P.S. It's no mere coincidence that the man in the fable wears a hat)  YouTube - The North Wind and the Sun: A Fable by Aesop (1972)

  Does the fable mean that photo-voltaic cells are better than wind turbines?   :Doh:  
I thought all electric power was invisible.  Except lightning and big sparks when you put your screwdriver in places that it should not go.  Hee Hee. :Ohyaaa:

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## elkangorito

> Conclusion.
> If & only if, an induction disc KWH meter is used, "true power" is the only thing that is measured & therefore, *the only thing that the user is charged for*.

  Yes, Scott is correct. "Losses" are included in a domestic users bill. These losses are not only PF. 
So, I guess I'll eat a very small hat.  :Redface:   http://www.energy.com.au/energy/ea.n...March+2009.pdf

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## watson

I can see a trend here..........then it will become "The Big Day Out Hat Eating Extravaganza".  :Biggrin: 
With prizes, and rides for the Kids.   :Rotfl:

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## elkangorito

Sounds fun.  :Happydance2:  
I've already selected my hat...see below.    
Here's rrobor's hat below;

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## Vernonv

> Here's rrobor's hat below;

   Now I get it ... it's not an elephant in the room with roborr ... it's a buffalo.  :Doh:  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Biggrin:

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## elkangorito

It could be an elephant (or some part of an elephant)  :Smilie:  ;  http://mahmood.tv/2006/04/18/worlds-...de-in-bahrain/

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