# Forum Home Renovation Heating & Cooling  Looking for aircon advise

## shauck

Hi all. Last summer scared the hell out of me. This is the first winter I sort of appreciated. Thinking of getting aircon installed but wanted to discuss this a bit, including systems that would suit our situation. So, bit of info.  
House is in Hepburn Springs (Daylesford) which is roughly 3 degrees cooler than Melbourne on average but sure did suffer the couple of 40+ week long heatwaves of last summer. Very occasionally can be equal or hotter than Melb, depending on weather but not as a rule.  
House is weatherboard, insulated walls and roof. Part pitched roof over living and kitchen, with two ceilings (old ceiling left in place, battened out for new ceiling), part skillion over bedrooms and bathroom.  
Front of house at ground level, sloping block gives 1.2ish meters standing room at rear of house. Raised deck behind house with timber cladding closing it off underneath with tin reverse roof. 
Nowhere inside the house I'd put a split system. Prefer ducted I think. 
Not a lot of spots to put floor vents for ducted but doable I think. How many vents in the living/kitchen would we need? I'd assume one in each bedroom too? Is under a window ok? Is in the corner where TV goes ok? (not a solid cabinet covering it) 
Would ceiling ducts be doable and would they work better or be less efficient? Would ceiling ducts mean roof mounted system (doesn't make sense that, what with all the heat on the roof)  or could it still be subfloor? 
Living/kitchen 18m2
2 bedrooms - 18m2
Bathroom - 9m2
Total area - 45m2 
Quite happy to cool the whole lot or can close bathroom door (concrete floor in bathroom) but seeing as it's so small a house and best to keep concrete floor cool, I figured cool the lot.  
So thinking about what type/brand/capacity system would work best for those stinking hot heatwaves. Probably won't use it all summer, just for the really hot days. Don't want to turn into a pussy. 
Oh, and not far off putting house on market so solar probably(definitely) not an option as it'll cost too much. Likely will be our last summer in this house.  
Are the systems heating and cooling or can you get just cooling? If so, price differences between the two, I imagine would be a bit? As we have very little area to heat and our smallest model Rinnai gas heater works awesomely for that, bit reluctant to go ducted heating. Also have open fire.  
Cheers for any info/input.  :Biggrin:  
Su.

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## phild01

Hi Su
If you are thinking of selling up so soon, such an investment may be lost if the new owners want to do additions.  I think a ducted system like you describe might cost 2 to 3 times that of a split.  Is the look of the split head unit putting you off this type of unit.

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## shauck

Hi phil. Yeah, they look bad and especially in such small space. Suppose it depends on overall cost a bit.

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## shauck

I really don't know much about how these things work. Foreign language. Bit more detail.  
I think ducts in the ceiling may be ok for lounge room but bedrooms have no ceiling space. Ducts in floor ok in bedrooms as has loads underfloor space. Ducts in lounge room could be underfloor in places that may not be opitmal regarding current layout (which can't really be changed) but best spot for duct would be floor along front house wall which is cutting it close for space. Just stuck a ruler down between the verandah decking at front door and it was 280mm to top of decking from ground, so close to that or maybe a little more for clearance.

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## Sir Stinkalot

Not trying to push any brand but this would be a good start to get a better understanding of the options and your needs: https://www.fujitsugeneral.com.au/residential-range 
For air conditioning you are better off with ceiling outlets as the cold air falls. If you go for floor mount the cold air would tend to pool on the ground. If you are only going to be in the house for another year I would seriously consider if you will get a return on your investment - for a full house ducted you could be pushing $15-$20k which is a lot that you will need to put on top of your asking price!

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## Smurf

Given the location, I'm thinking that the humidity is probably fairly low when it's hot? If so then evaporative would be a cheaper option than a refrigerated system if you want ducted. 
That said, if you're about to sell then that adds more issues of the financial kind. Regardless of what you do, you can be sure that some potential buyer would prefer you'd done something else.....

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## Brian7886

Fujitsu in the last 2-3 years have really started to develop some really good systems. The house is a smallish size, 45sq m isnt really a huge amount of air.  
You could get away with a 8.5kw ducted. I quoted a fujitsu 8.5kw ducted the other day (in roof) which had 5 outlets. I think the overall price was 7500-7700, this includes the power supply (always ask this because some fridgies arent sparkies). Under floor MAY cost you more depending on what you want, remember you will be requiring a floor or wall mounted return air grille and box in there somewhere as well with the ducted system if you go under floor.  
Definately can put grilles under windows, can be very beneficial actually.  
Nothing wrong with a split system. Yes they can be obtrusive but they are the cheapest way youll economically cool your house

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## Brian7886

> Not trying to push any brand but this would be a good start to get a better understanding of the options and your needs: https://www.fujitsugeneral.com.au/residential-range 
> For air conditioning you are better off with ceiling outlets as the cold air falls. If you go for floor mount the cold air would tend to pool on the ground. If you are only going to be in the house for another year I would seriously consider if you will get a return on your investment - for a full house ducted you could be pushing $15-$20k which is a lot that you will need to put on top of your asking price!

  
You wont pay anywhere near 15 grand for what she needs in a 45sqm home. I can do an Actron ESP plus 15kW variable capacity 8 zone, 10-12 outlet unit for 13-15 grand

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## Brian7886

to answer other questions in your post 
ceiling mounted unit - 95% of units in homes are mounted in the ceiling. The heat in the ceiling is of no concern really as most units are either internally or externally insulated, as well as they dont use any roof space air in the process. That being said a well ventilated ceiling never hurt anybody.  
IF you had an underfloor mounted unit and the ducts running into the ceiling expect poorer results.

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## JB1

If you're putting it on the market soon, I'd just go with a single split system. 
Only issue is trying to push cooling into the rooms. 
However yours is small, so shouldn't be too much of an issue.

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## shauck

> Given the location, I'm thinking that the humidity is probably fairly low when it's hot? If so then evaporative would be a cheaper option than a refrigerated system if you want ducted. 
> That said, if you're about to sell then that adds more issues of the financial kind. Regardless of what you do, you can be sure that some potential buyer would prefer you'd done something else.....

  Yeah, humidity not generally an issue here.    

> Fujitsu in the last 2-3 years have really started to develop some really good systems. The house is a smallish size, 45sq m isnt really a huge amount of air.  
> You could get away with a 8.5kw ducted. I quoted a fujitsu 8.5kw ducted the other day (in roof) which had 5 outlets. I think the overall price was 7500-7700, this includes the power supply (always ask this because some fridgies arent sparkies). Under floor MAY cost you more depending on what you want, remember you will be requiring a floor or wall mounted return air grille and box in there somewhere as well with the ducted system if you go under floor.  
> Definately can put grilles under windows, can be very beneficial actually.  
> Nothing wrong with a split system. Yes they can be obtrusive but they are the cheapest way youll economically cool your house

  Ok, 7.5K is a lot and probably too much to spend considering on plans to sell fairly soon. It's not that I don't think it's worth it.      

> to answer other questions in your post 
> ceiling mounted unit - 95% of units in homes are mounted in the ceiling. The heat in the ceiling is of no concern really as most units are either internally or externally insulated, as well as they dont use any roof space air in the process. That being said a well ventilated ceiling never hurt anybody.  
> IF you had an underfloor mounted unit and the ducts running into the ceiling expect poorer results.

  Ok, makes sense.

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## shauck

> For air conditioning you are better off with ceiling outlets as the cold air falls. If you go for floor mount the cold air would tend to pool on the ground.

   Makes sense  

> If you're putting it on the market soon, I'd just go with a single split system. 
> Only issue is trying to push cooling into the rooms. 
> However yours is small, so shouldn't be too much of an issue.

  I wondered if just one or two ducts in the lounge/kitchen ceiling and just let the bedrooms take cool air from there would work. Both the bedroom doors are directly off that space.  
Would one or two ducts significantly reduce the cost down from that 7.5k mark? 
Maybe just suck it up for another year and think about how the new house is going to work instead. That one will be interesting. Bedrooms up in the roof area. Will need excellent insulation and some good cross flow ventilation with air conditioning for the worst days 
Are there any portable units (that I can store when not in use and sell on later) that actually work on 40+ days? Any recommendations for quality products/models? The only place to sit one would be in front of the fireplace. Do they need to be vented outside or anything? Can you do that using the chimney?

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## phild01

Was almost going to suggest a portable air con but they don't work as well as splitting the system.  You also need to run a ducting hose out a window but would be much better than nothing.  A portable evaporative cooler may be more suitable, though never used one to know.

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## shauck

> Was almost going to suggest a portable air con but they don't work as well as splitting the system.  You also need to run a ducting hose out a window but would be much better than nothing.  A portable evaporative cooler may be more suitable, though never used one to know.

  Could the ducting be put up the chimney? Is there perhaps one that works better than most and what would be likely to happen when using it on 40+ days 
The only spot I think I could put a split system would be over the front door however, they stick out the wall tho don't they or is the outside bit separate and able to be put out of sight?

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## Brian7886

A split system the outdoor unit can be put anywhere yes

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## phild01

> Could the ducting be put up the chimney? Is there perhaps one that works better than most and what would be likely to happen when using it on 40+ days 
> The only spot I think I could put a split system would be over the front door however, they stick out the wall tho don't they or is the outside bit separate and able to be put out of sight?

  The split system has the compressor outside, somewhere, anywhere but generally within 10m of the inside wall head unit, which protrudes high up on the wall.

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## phild01

The use of the chimney as a flue would work very well for a portable unit and sounds ideal.  No need to run any hose ducting up it either.  When you move you could on-sell it. 
If you get a split system then this would likely give you best resale return against your outlay compared with fully ducted.
So portable unit will be cheapest overall but doesn't enhance any resale value.
Split is a good choice and could enhance resale;
Ducted, may not recoup your outlay. 
The purchaser of your property is the unknown factor and pretty much dictates how much the inclusion of ac is worth to them.

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## toooldforthis

> The use of the chimney as a flue would work very well for a portable unit and sounds ideal.  No need to run any hose ducting up it either.  When you move you could on-sell it. 
> If you get a split system then this would likely give you best resale return against your outlay compared with fully ducted.
> So portable unit will be cheapest overall but doesn't enhance any resale value.
> Split is a good choice and could enhance resale;
> Ducted, may not recoup your outlay. 
> The purchaser of your property is the unknown factor and pretty much dictates how much the inclusion of ac is worth to them.

  that pretty much nails it.
only thing I would add is if you go for a split system the outlet unit doesn't have to be one of those ugly wall mount units but can be a wall mount floor level unit like this:   
less ugly, as they are thinner and don't protrude into the room as much.
I reckon one outlet would do you with _ceiling fans, especially in the bedrooms. _ here is a link to the Daikin one:Daikin _"Daikins floor standing air conditioning units are compact and ideal for anyone wanting the convenience and access of positioning their unit closer to the floor.  They can even be semi-recessed into the wall or in an unused fireplace. The units use either top, or top and bottom discharge vents to distribute air evenly throughout the room."_

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## shauck

> that pretty much nails it.
> only thing I would add is if you go for a split system the outlet unit doesn't have to be one of those ugly wall mount units but can be a wall mount floor level unit like this:   
> less ugly, as they are thinner and don't protrude into the room as much.
> I reckon one outlet would do you with _ceiling fans, especially in the bedrooms. _ here is a link to the Daikin one:Daikin _"Daikins floor standing air conditioning units are compact and ideal for anyone wanting the convenience and access of positioning their unit closer to the floor.  They can even be semi-recessed into the wall or in an unused fireplace. The units use either top, or top and bottom discharge vents to distribute air evenly throughout the room."_

  These seem interesting although I can't find space for permanent install of one as there isn't any free wall space. Can they be set up as temporary, sitting in front of fireplace?

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## phild01

Split systems are plumbed in with dual copper pipe runs plus the wiring loom.  It pretty much is a permanent fixture and would mean the fireplace becomes redundant.

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## shauck

I think I need to reiterate. Not needing heating. Just cooling. Does this make any difference to unobtrusive choices?

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## phild01

> I think I need to reiterate. Not needing heating. Just cooling. Does this make any difference to unobtrusive choices?

   Sorry, my wording might be in error.  If you put a floor type like that in front of the fireplace then it is permanently there, you can't pick it up and store it; so the fireplace is no longer available for heating.  You can only do this with the portable units we were talking about earlier. 
The one Tools showed is a split system and is plumbed into an outside compressor.  If you disconnect the plumbing then the gas escapes.  Split systems are 2 part systems with the big, noisy bit outside.  The outside compressor compresses a gas to a liquid that is piped to the indoor unit that lets the liquid become a gas again.

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## Moondog55

As you will be moving out/selling soon would a portable swampy be more cost effective?
Work best on the hot dry days and that is what the last wave of hot weather was, very dry heat and water coolers go well together and minimal cash outlay; combined with a couple of shade sails and the outlay may be blow $500-

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## Brian7886

> The split system has the compressor outside, somewhere, anywhere but generally within 10m of the inside wall head unit, which protrudes high up on the wall.

  most have a 30 metre max distance. Usually require additional gas after about 7.5m. Depending on manufacturer of course. This is where some of the back yard guys run into trouble. they install them put 20 metres of pipe on them and then find they dont work on hot days

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## Brian7886

> These seem interesting although I can't find space for permanent install of one as there isn't any free wall space. Can they be set up as temporary, sitting in front of fireplace?

  ive often mounted these to a fire place (not used anymore) after framing up and lining the opening of the thing.  
Expect to pay 1000-1500 MORE for a floor console type unit over a wall hung

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## shauck

> Sorry, my wording might be in error.  If you put a floor type like that in front of the fireplace then it is permanently there, you can't pick it up and store it; so the fireplace is no longer available for heating.  You can only do this with the portable units we were talking about earlier. 
> The one Tools showed is a split system and is plumbed into an outside compressor.  If you disconnect the plumbing then the gas escapes.  Split systems are 2 part systems with the big, noisy bit outside.  The outside compressor compresses a gas to a liquid that is piped to the indoor unit that lets the liquid become a gas again.

  Interestingly there are portable splits out there. Found out about these yesterday.    

> As you will be moving out/selling soon would a portable swampy be more cost effective?
> Work best on the hot dry days and that is what the last wave of hot weather was, very dry heat and water coolers go well together and minimal cash outlay; combined with a couple of shade sails and the outlay may be blow $500-

  It's a consideration although I'm starting to come back to the split system, in spite of it's ugliness drawback   

> ive often mounted these to a fire place (not used anymore) after framing up and lining the opening of the thing.  
> Expect to pay 1000-1500 MORE for a floor console type unit over a wall hung

  Wow, big price difference.  
If I could find a quality split system that is flatter to the wall and not so fugly, I think I'd be happy enough. The only place I could put it is over the front door. This would direct it towards the entire house too. Would the installation cause unsightly protrusions above the doorway externally?  
Anyone got ideas on the cassette type of system. They don't have ducting but are ceiling mounted. Are there any good looking units in this type of arrangement? I think they are more expensive than splits.  
something like this http://www.airwaresales.com.au/produ...sp?product=287 but better looking/flatter. How big are they? The link on the page to manufacturers spec doesn't work

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## phild01

[QUOTE=shauck;950306] The only place I could put it is over the front door. This would direct it towards the entire house too. Would the installation cause unsightly protrusions above the doorway externally? ] 
Su, when I did my first unit I ran the pipework myself because I knew the installer would do the quick and easy.  I took the pipework under the house and up through a linen cupboard.  The drainage conduit I took down inside the stud wall.  At least none of the installation was visible but with you about how fugly the head unit is.

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## r3nov8or

I'd go a 'right sized' split system in the living/kitchen and ceiling fans in the living and 2 x bedrooms. 99.99% of prospective buyers seeing a wall mounted split will say 'good' rather than 'bad'. Ceiling fans are very cheap and great additions imho.

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## SilentButDeadly

We looked at ducted reverse cycle or evaporative to replace our 30 year old evaporative to cool our 100 sqm.  The specialist to one look at our place then asked "what's your power like?".  I told him that being at the end of a long piece of string we had some impressive voltage fluctuations and the usual quirks.  And he said definitely a 8000cfm Breezair EXH190 swampy. 
His reasoning was that anything big enough to cool the five spaces of our place (without significant thermal mass) would be way too big for our power supply to reliably deal with and would be especially vulnerable on the repetitive 42+ degree heatwave days such as last summer.  Plus we'd be well north of ten grand for a reverse cycle and wouldn't have sufficient area outside for the exchanger anyway (1000x900x600).  
So we had the new swampy installed last Friday ($5400 with five outlets, new dropper and new R1.5 ducting ).  We test fired it yesterday arvo when we got home. It was 31 outside and 25 inside and it sank the internal temperature by 3 in just a half hour.  The old swampy would've made the house warmer!!

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## shauck

[QUOTE=phild01;950315]  

> The only place I could put it is over the front door. This would direct it towards the entire house too. Would the installation cause unsightly protrusions above the doorway externally? ] 
> Su, when I did my first unit I ran the pipework myself because I knew the installer would do the quick and easy.  I took the pipework under the house and up through a linen cupboard.  The drainage conduit I took down inside the stud wall.  At least none of the installation was visible but with you about how fugly the head unit is.

  I suppose an installer could come onsite and we could talk about how to set it up unobtrusively.    

> I'd go a 'right sized' split system in the living/kitchen and ceiling fans in the living and 2 x bedrooms. 99.99% of prospective buyers seeing a wall mounted split will say 'good' rather than 'bad'. Ceiling fans are very cheap and great additions imho.

  This is the way I'm leaning at the moment. Just not fans in the bedrooms as ceiling height is low and the rooms are very small with light fittings over the beds. Little too close practically and aesthetically. The heater  works to heat the whole house so I'm hoping the aircon will do this too.    

> We looked at ducted reverse cycle or evaporative to replace our 30 year old evaporative to cool our 100 sqm.  The specialist to one look at our place then asked "what's your power like?".  I told him that being at the end of a long piece of string we had some impressive voltage fluctuations and the usual quirks.  And he said definitely a 8000cfm Breezair EXH190 swampy. 
> His reasoning was that anything big enough to cool the five spaces of our place (without significant thermal mass) would be way too big for our power supply to reliably deal with and would be especially vulnerable on the repetitive 42+ degree heatwave days such as last summer.  Plus we'd be well north of ten grand for a reverse cycle and wouldn't have sufficient area outside for the exchanger anyway (1000x900x600).  
> So we had the new swampy installed last Friday ($5400 with five outlets, new dropper and new R1.5 ducting ).  We test fired it yesterday arvo when we got home. It was 31 outside and 25 inside and it sank the internal temperature by 3 in just a half hour.  The old swampy would've made the house warmer!!

  Thankfully this house is so small, we shouldn't have a problem with power. I will keep that in mind for the new house though.

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## ringtail

Kiddies wading pool and a few beers will see you through Su. Once upon a time everyone lived without AC and survived just fine.

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## phild01

> The heater  works to heat the whole house so I'm hoping the aircon will do this too.

  From what I have found, this doesn't work well when cooling unless the ac is left continuously running.

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## shauck

> Kiddies wading pool and a few beers will see you through Su. Once upon a time everyone lived without AC and survived just fine.

  Yeah. I know. As my mate says "suck it up cry baby".  
We have a fibreglass clawfoot bathtub that gets dragged out for the hot days. 
I do recall, you have a rather flash swimming pool....

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## ringtail

> From what I have found, this doesn't work well when cooling unless the ac is left continuously running.

   

> Yeah. I know. As my mate says "suck it up cry baby".  
> We have a fibreglass clawfoot bathtub that gets dragged out for the hot days. 
> I do recall, you have a rather flash swimming pool....

  
Yes indeed. The pool is awesome and just the ticket to take the edge off. I don't live in it or sleep in it though. Living or sleeping in  AC is awful IMO. People that work in an office don't know any different but that's why they are constantly sick. It's such a shame that the powers that be are making us build esky houses to suit an artificial environment rather than insisting on natural light, ventilation, aspect, shading etc.....While those of us fortunate enough to work outdoors become accustomed to seasonal changes and temperatures, the AC dwellers keel over at 30 degrees. Not to mention the cost to provide and run this artificial bubble. Bugger that. 
ps, I would never call you a cry baby Su. Princess maybe :Biggrin:  :Tongue:

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## Brian7886

> Yes indeed. The pool is awesome and just the ticket to take the edge off. I don't live in it or sleep in it though. Living or sleeping in  AC is awful IMO. People that work in an office don't know any different but that's why they are constantly sick. It's such a shame that the powers that be are making us build esky houses to suit an artificial environment rather than insisting on natural light, ventilation, aspect, shading etc.....While those of us fortunate enough to work outdoors become accustomed to seasonal changes and temperatures, the AC dwellers keel over at 30 degrees. Not to mention the cost to provide and run this artificial bubble. Bugger that. 
> ps, I would never call you a cry baby Su. Princess maybe

  
people in offices are constantly sick? Thats an old wives tale. But the cause of these isnt air conditioning, its either poorly designed air conditioning, poor maintained air conditioning or non-compliant air conditioning.  
Office blocks have air conditioning, they have this as now they cant have opening windows above a certain height. These air conditioning systems either incorporate fresh air through them, or have a seperate fresh air ventilation system throughout the building. Obviously every building will be different. Then you throw in things like controlled climate systems, where we would install fresh air ventilation that is fan forced and controlled by temperature. Meaning mid-summer this fresh air would start pouring through the building in the middle of the night when it is 10 degrees to pre-cool the building, saving the air con work as well as meaning people spend less time in air conditioned air. Its not unhealthy if the unit is properly cleaned regularly

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## ringtail

Old wives tail ? Don't think so. People in offices are constantly sick. The flu season in Brisbane this year has being going all year. Bad personal hygiene counts for a lot but breathing recirc air in a confined space plays more than a minor roll. Planes are the worst.  And as you say, " if the unit is cleaned regularly" is a big if. However, we are not talking office blocks but domestic housing in this case. It's totally personal opinion mind you. If one wants to live in an artificial environment then go for it. Just realise that it's neither healthy or cheap.

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## JB1

I wouldn't blame the air-conditioning for people in an office building getting sick. More of the fact that people are in a closed environment. 
And you can't really heat efficiently if there wasn't recirculated air. 
You could possible say the same thing about super insulated houses. No new air. 
I wouldn't blame the aircond, it's just that all offices use Aircond.

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## phild01

> You could possible say the same thing about super insulated houses. No new air.

  This keeps me wondering about closing up a house so no new air can creep in.

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## r3nov8or

Realistically, in domestic, in Vic, AC for cooling is like 10 to 14 days per year. Relax.

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## shauck

I mostly like summer temperatures. They are usually around 30 degrees which is pleasant and mostly sleep-able temperatures at night. It's the 40+ days with hot still nights that I don't like. When we had those two separate weeks of 40+, I was exhausted by the end  of it from not sleeping and not getting any respite from the heat. Even tho I dislike airconditioning (always makes me feel like I'm about to get a cold), I would use it on those occasions. Either that or go rent an airconditioned holiday accomodation for that week. Bet they'd all be booked out tho.

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## Moondog55

Pertinent to your question Su; I have just spent 3 days putting up shade sails on the Eastern exposure, I'll do the Northern side after the W/E.
Keeping the heap out is always the first response

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## shauck

Yep. Totally agree. Have shade cloth that comes down over the front verandah opening to stop late afternoon sun hitting the front wall. That's about as much as I can do at this point. Doesn't stop those horrendously hot days. Nothing does. The hot air gets in eventually.

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## Moondog55

Yes Cecile needs ; I mean really needs; the A/C even in reasonably mild weather so later on I'm getting up on the roof and adding the shade sails above the tin roof.

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## r3nov8or

> I mostly like summer temperatures. They are usually around 30 degrees which is pleasant and mostly sleep-able temperatures at night. It's the 40+ days with hot still nights that I don't like. When we had those two separate weeks of 40+, I was exhausted by the end  of it from not sleeping and not getting any respite from the heat. Even tho I dislike airconditioning (always makes me feel like I'm about to get a cold), I would use it on those occasions. Either that or go rent an airconditioned holiday accomodation for that week. Bet they'd all be booked out tho.

  Totally agree, that's where my 10 to 14 days came from,  but I guess last summer it was closer to 20 days given the heatwaves. I was at the Tennis for 2 of the 40+ days - so oppressive just watching, let alone for the players. Anyway, if sleeping is a problem (and is for me too), please reconsider a ceiling fan. These are great set on a slow rotation to just move air over you, and are silent (well, they should be!). Take a spray bottle or a damp face washer to bed, and nigh-nighs  :Smilie:

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## Moondog55

Cheap pedestal  floor fans are cheaper and almost as effective

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## r3nov8or

> Cheap pedestal  floor fans are cheaper and almost as effective

  I can't sleep with them as they make too much noise, even on low. Big ceiling blades move enough air and make no noise when set low. In my experience...

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## Moondog55

When I'm tired I can sleep through earthquakes

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## r3nov8or

> When I'm tired I can sleep through earthquakes

  Can you get to sleep while the earthquake is happening?  :Smilie:

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## Moondog55

YEP So long as it's only a 3 or less

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## Renopa

I had 3 x ceiling fans updated last year to remote controlled ones.....just perfect!!  Oh so silent and it's just a touch on the remote screen to set the timer.  The previous fans in this house were 20yo and very noisy, not to mention those chunky/clunky wall switches that you have to get out of bed to turn off.  Money well spent....the new fans were only $79 each at the green shed and the sparky charged $50 each to swap over from the old clunkers.   
;-))

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## Brian7886

> Old wives tail ? Don't think so. People in offices are constantly sick. The flu season in Brisbane this year has being going all year. Bad personal hygiene counts for a lot but breathing recirc air in a confined space plays more than a minor roll. Planes are the worst.  And as you say, " if the unit is cleaned regularly" is a big if. However, we are not talking office blocks but domestic housing in this case. It's totally personal opinion mind you. If one wants to live in an artificial environment then go for it. Just realise that it's neither healthy or cheap.

  its an old wives tale. Im a fridgey. I work on these things day in day out. I work in offices on their systems day in day out. Any legitimately designed and installed office system would not just have as you say 're-circulated air', there would be just as much fresh air pumped through the system as there is air coming back from the conditioned rooms. Thats law.  
And as for domestic, if your house is properly built/renovated etc to ASSIST and air conditioner, you wouldnt need it over night to sleep with it on, you would really be able to get your house cool before you go to bed and sleep rather comfortably with it off. If people do make the choice to lock the house up and never breathe an ounce of fresh air, thats not the air con causing sicknesses, its poor life choices. Even without an air con on, if you closed your house up you would start being sick.  
But to say air cons cause sickness is a real stretch. If the air con is properly maintained bacteria would not be able to grow on the filter or evaporator coil. Dont forget the fan scroll either. This also needs to be pulled out and cleaned regularly. Keep it clean, the air it blows at you is no worse than the air you would breathe in regardless

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## Smurf

> If people do make the choice to lock the house up and never breathe an ounce of fresh air, thats not the air con causing sicknesses, its poor life choices. Even without an air con on, if you closed your house up you would start being sick.

  Agreed although the vast majority of Australian homes, basically anything built last century or earlier, have excessive ventilation rates even with every single door and window firmly shut. The leakage alone gives all the ventilation, and more, that you actually need in these places. 
Different in a modern house of course as they're more tightly sealed.

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## ringtail

> But to say air cons cause sickness is a real stretch. If the air con is properly maintained bacteria would not be able to grow on the filter or evaporator coil. Dont forget the fan scroll either. This also needs to be pulled out and cleaned regularly. Keep it clean, the air it blows at you is no worse than the air you would breathe in regardless

  Again, IF kept clean, IF properly maintained. How many domestic AC's get cleaned or serviced ? Bugger all is the answer. They get attention when they break, nothing more.

----------


## phild01

Still looking for the best way to clean the fins other than using Glenn20!

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## ringtail

> Still looking for the best way to clean the fins other than using Glenn20!

  Blow torch ?  :Biggrin:

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## Brian7886

> Again, IF kept clean, IF properly maintained. How many domestic AC's get cleaned or serviced ? Bugger all is the answer. They get attention when they break, nothing more.

  about 90% of air cons i install (about 1000 a year) i will go back and clean annually. Not everyones a tight ass mate 
and you are still blaming the air con for cause of sickness. Its not that the air con is causing sickness, if people arent maintaining their air con then yeah, you are gunna get sick because you are blowing bacteria around your house. Thats like blaming chicken for getting salmonella when you have left it sitting on the bench for 3 days before you cook it. Or the old 'guns dont kill people' argument really.  
Would you bath in week old bath water?

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## Brian7886

> Still looking for the best way to clean the fins other than using Glenn20!

  
refrigeration coil cleaners come in many forms. There is de-odourising foams, anti-bacterial foams, sprays, gels etc. This is where an annual 80-100 buck service is well worth it. Most quality blokes (im not talking about the guy who installs your air con you just bought from harvey norman), i mean people who are refrigeration specialists have that access to the stuff that you cant just go and buy at bunnings. If people chose to not clean the air con then yeah they will get sick, but you cant sit there and say 'oh the air con causes all our illness', more like your laziness or neglect

----------


## phild01

> refrigeration coil cleaners come in many forms. There is de-odourising foams, anti-bacterial foams, sprays, gels etc. This is where an annual 80-100 buck service is well worth it. Most quality blokes (im not talking about the guy who installs your air con you just bought from harvey norman), i mean people who are refrigeration specialists have that access to the stuff that you cant just go and buy at bunnings. If people chose to not clean the air con then yeah they will get sick, but you cant sit there and say 'oh the air con causes all our illness', more like your laziness or neglect

  Still looking for a product...it would not be a hard thing DIY! 
I'm not saying anything about the sickness aspect!

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## Brian7886

Check heatcraft actrol etc. glen 20 wont do a thing

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## ringtail

> about 90% of air cons i install (about 1000 a year) i will go back and clean annually. Not everyones a tight ass mate 
> and you are still blaming the air con for cause of sickness. Its not that the air con is causing sickness, if people arent maintaining their air con then yeah, you are gunna get sick because you are blowing bacteria around your house. Thats like blaming chicken for getting salmonella when you have left it sitting on the bench for 3 days before you cook it. Or the old 'guns dont kill people' argument really.  
> Would you bath in week old bath water?

  
1000 per year ! That's some serious money considering the install cost alone of a small split with no complications is $650 or so. No wonder anyone and everyone is installing them these days. A good gravy train to be on. However, I digress. The "laziness" factor of those that have AC is, I think, not the root cause of the issue. I would say that most owners have no idea of the maintenance requirements and if their unit is installed by Joe Bloggs then nothing will be done to that unit until it fails. I'm sure you have seen some nightmares in your time.  
The inability of people to tolerate a bit of heat and humidity or a bit of cold is astonishing these days.

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## Brian7886

> 1000 per year ! That's some serious money considering the install cost alone of a small split with no complications is $650 or so. No wonder anyone and everyone is installing them these days. A good gravy train to be on. However, I digress. The "laziness" factor of those that have AC is, I think, not the root cause of the issue. I would say that most owners have no idea of the maintenance requirements and if their unit is installed by Joe Bloggs then nothing will be done to that unit until it fails. I'm sure you have seen some nightmares in your time.  
> The inability of people to tolerate a bit of heat and humidity or a bit of cold is astonishing these days.

  yeah but we are a mid sized business doing domestic,industrial and commercial air, domestic, industrial and commercial electrical as well as appliances. And then refrigeration systems as well. Its not about a gravy train. The problem is sparkys go get their air con install license so they can install the split you buy at harvey norman or bing lee or the good guys, but the idiot selling them, and the person installing them arent telling people of how to maintain, or doing the maintenance of the systems. And its a big beef among genuine fridgies that these blokes are out doing them, and it is damaging the trade really.  
But yeah we charge about $99 for a service, this includes pulling all the casing off the indoor unit and washing, flushing drains, washing filters, full coil treatments, pull the fan barrel out and wash it, pull out louvre blades and wash, tighten electrical connections, check running currents, refrigerant pressures, rush proofing outdoor unit, wash and polish outdoor unit etc etc. People often whinge about the cost, but really, we do more in the hour we are there than a mechanic would to your car on a 350 dollar service

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## ringtail

> yeah but we are a mid sized business doing domestic,industrial and commercial air, domestic, industrial and commercial electrical as well as appliances. And then refrigeration systems as well. Its not about a gravy train. The problem is sparkys go get their air con install license so they can install the split you buy at harvey norman or bing lee or the good guys, but the idiot selling them, and the person installing them arent telling people of how to maintain, or doing the maintenance of the systems. And its a big beef among genuine fridgies that these blokes are out doing them, and it is damaging the trade really.  
> But yeah we charge about $99 for a service, this includes pulling all the casing off the indoor unit and washing, flushing drains, washing filters, full coil treatments, pull the fan barrel out and wash it, pull out louvre blades and wash, tighten electrical connections, check running currents, refrigerant pressures, rush proofing outdoor unit, wash and polish outdoor unit etc etc. People often whinge about the cost, but really, we do more in the hour we are there than a mechanic would to your car on a 350 dollar service

  Yep the motto is get in, get out, get paid, move on - not caring whether they hear from that customer ever again. I think the sparkies cottoned on as the AC guys need them for the hook up.

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## Brian7886

> Yep the motto is get in, get out, get paid, move on - not caring whether they hear from that customer ever again. I think the sparkies cottoned on as the AC guys need them for the hook up.

  the sparkies arent much of an issue to genuine fridgey firms. they usually install bugger all compared to the specialist firms. They are only licensed to install units up to 15kw and they dont have a true refrigeration ticket either so they cant actually get warranty work orders or anything. Yeah they make the quick buck. But at $650-$750 to install it depending on the job could take them 2-3 hours or more, by the time they buy trunking, pipe, cable, slab/brackets, circuit breakers etc etc they would have been better off doing a few lights and power points in a house at $60 an hour plus mark up on all material. More profit any day. They are no threat, and to me as a service agent for most brands, they generally @@@@ up a hell of a lot and create a lot of work for me

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## ringtail

> the sparkies arent much of an issue to genuine fridgey firms. they usually install bugger all compared to the specialist firms. They are only licensed to install units up to 15kw and they dont have a true refrigeration ticket either so they cant actually get warranty work orders or anything. Yeah they make the quick buck. But at $650-$750 to install it depending on the job could take them 2-3 hours or more, by the time they buy trunking, pipe, cable, slab/brackets, circuit breakers etc etc they would have been better off doing a few lights and power points in a house at $60 an hour plus mark up on all material. More profit any day. They are no threat, and to me as a service agent for most brands, they generally @@@@ up a hell of a lot and create a lot of work for me

  
Geez I could handle doing 2-3hrs work for $750  :Biggrin:  even if they make $400 clear profit out of it it's still powerful dollars. Do two of them a day 5 days a week @ $400 profit and it's 200k per year. Not too shabby  :Tongue:

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## Brian7886

Yeah minus fuel insurance (vehicle business public), licensing, phone costs, vehicle maintenance.  
$200 approx a week fuel (theres $10,000)
Various licensing (1000-2000 a year) 
OHS requirements are big now and cost
probably have to put another bloke on as doing them on your own every day wont work (theres 500-1000 a week) $25,000-$50,000 a year say
Vehicle maintenance say 2 services, maybe a set of tyres, other bits and pieces (2,000 a year) 
Specialist equipment could spend 15-20,000 per year easy depending how deep you wanna go 
Insurance will cost you big time too. For everything vehicle/workshop/public liability/contents of vehicles 
Then there is the tax guy. If you want work, you need to produce receipts. The amount of warranty jobs knocked back because they cant prove who installed it as they have no reciept. Everyone loves a cashy, but there is plenty of times youll need to produce a receipt for the install by a licensed bloke bla bla.  
I know what ya saying. But when you throw in over heads, and if you have a full blown shop with office staff, building costs, power water etc etc that $400 profit per job as you say, is getting pretty slim.  
Genuine business's could easily justify 200-300 price increase if they wanted, but youd never get the work. 13 years ago, my previous employer (original owner of the business i now own) was charging 650 for a standard install. we charge 700. 13 years copper has increased, labour has increased, rego has increased, fuel has increased, but we still charge basically the same as back then.  
Thats the problem with the whole trade, builders charge more, concreters charge more, but the fridgey has to suck it up and cut his own throat to keep getting work.  
Until you get into commercial then you charge what you want, Woolworths are nice little earners when they have a failure. Its cheaper to pay 3000 bucks for a call out and flick some switches, change a few parts and monitor it for a few hours over night than it is to throw out 100's of 1000's worth of fruit or meat 
You wont get 2 a day all year long workin out of a van thats for sure.

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## phild01

Amazes me how the insurance etc chestnuts always arise as a defence to high hourly rates yet the breakdowns per customer are never revealed (licenced trades).

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## Brian7886

> Amazes me how the insurance etc chestnuts always arise as a defence to high hourly rates yet the breakdowns per customer are never revealed (licenced trades).

  Its not a defence. Its justification. You have over heads in every business. These need to be on-sold or you may as well shut the door. I can break down everything to my customers if required.  
Our hourly rate is charged at something like 77 bucks (plus a call out fee, which means driving to wherever the job is and spending 15 minutes or so on site), the 77 an hour covers labour (say 30-38 bucks an hour for the guy), and yeah all the over heads the business needs to pay to offer the service people are seeking.  
Thats basic business protocols really. If you are a 1 man band in a van and charging out 80 an hour, thats the bloke ripping you off. Cos he is pocketing every last cent of it.  
Advertising costs even come in, we can spend upwards of 10,000 a year on radio/tv/phone book ads.

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## phild01

Advertising costs should not come into it in any great way.  These costs are associated with gaining profitable work.  If advertising plays a bigger part then that is a sign of a sick competitive market or poor judgement.

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## Brian7886

> Advertising costs should not come into it in any great way.  These costs are associated with gaining profitable work.  If advertising plays a bigger part then that is a sign of a sick competitive market or poor judgement.

  not really, its all just business costs isnt it. ANd when you get work, that needs to come back to pay for it.  
Business isnt all about money coming in, you have outgoings too yes? These need to be made back from your work yes? Otherwise you go under.  
Its not all about costs to get profitable work, its just costs to actually have a professional business running smoothly. We are a mid sized operation, so those costs are made back over a lot of work, but it seems the greater part of society sees it as being ripped off if the tradesman coming to your home ends up with money for doing their job.  
Yet there is builders who will happily throw 30-40% onto other trades charges for the effort they went to to ring them to do the job.  
This is where @@@@ goes wrong. Builder calls for a quote on an air con for his new house he is building, client wants ducted. Our quote…..15000……price handed to customer….22,000…….customer thinks you are a rip off, yet your price would be fair in any town if the builder didnt want to earn a quick 7000 for calling you. Thats where rip off's occur.  
This is why ill owner build all my homes. Not that im saying builders are rip offs, but once they become a project manager, they do a lot of money counting and not a lot else

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## r3nov8or

I wonder how Su is getting on with her decision...

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## ringtail

> Not that im saying builders are rip offs, but once they become a project manager, they do a lot of money counting and not a lot else

  Couldn't agree more.

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## Bloss

> I wonder how Su is getting on with her decision...

  Back to basics: Su has great winter heating already so that eliminates need for a heat pump (i.e.: heating & cooling air conditioner). She has a small space that really needs to drop the temp 8-10 degrees on the really hot days (maybe 5-7 on and over 40 day!) as she is happy with 26-30 odd degree summer days. She plans on selling sooner than later so investment cost should be minimal. The area is is not coastal so has dry summer heat. 
That in my book adds up to an evaporative cooler rather than a split system - and that can be a single unit on the roof with a single outlet into the ceiling - relatively central if possible, but over the main living area anyway. Or a bit of ducting if need be, but for that small space shouldn't be necessary. But an alternative would be a no-name split system cooling only from Bunnies or any department store - probably about the same sort of outlay - and under $2.5K installed, possibly less. 
Even a decent sized portable evaporative cooler might make sense - and that investment can go with Su when she leaves! Home models like http://www.convair.net.au/au/product...ve-air-coolers or these: http://evaporative-coolers.com.au/index.html or http://portacoolaustralia.com.au or  
A greater analysis needed if Su was keeping the place, but as she isn't then IMO go simple and go cheap - these are just costs to get some summer comfort in the short term - you will not be able to add those costs to the overall asking price - it will be what it is due to guess what: location, location, location . . .

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## phild01

> But an alternative would be a no-name split system cooling only from Bunnies or any department store - probably about the same sort of outlay - and under $2.5K installed, possibly less.

   You can get 6kW+ brand name reverse installed for less than that.  The cheapies are usually pre-gassed and if a short run, can be installed by a nobody.  Should be less than $1.5K.

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## Uncle Bob

I think Bloss is on the money with an evaporative jobby.  :2thumbsup:

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## phild01

> I think Bloss is on the money with an evaporative jobby.

  In your part of the world, I think your recommendations would be on the money. I have never really felt the benefit of such a system being in a more humid environment.

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## Uncle Bob

> I have never really felt the benefit of such a system being in a more humid environment.

  Yup, they work well in the dry country areas.

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## Moondog55

> B 
> That in my book adds up to an evaporative cooler rather than a split system - 
> Even a decent sized portable evaporative cooler might make sense - and that investment can go with Su when she leaves! Home models like Evaporative air coolers - Convair Portable Cooling Solutions or these: Evaporative Coolers or Portable Evaporative Cooling Units or  
> A greater analysis needed if Su was keeping the place, but as she isn't then IMO go simple and go cheap - these are just costs to get some summer comfort in the short term - you will not be able to add those costs to the overall asking price - it will be what it is due to guess what: location, location, location . . .

  Go back quite few posts [ mind you I find the whole discussion interesting] and I think I said that already

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## phild01

Yes indeed, it was previously suggested :Wink:

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## shauck

Been enjoying all the info so far in this thread. Don't mind a bit of digression. 
Bloss, you have picked up every single relevant point and expressed it perfectly.  
One thing about evaporative, are you supposed to have windows open for them to operate properly?  
Evaporative may be fine but will split work just as well and without needing to open windows? 
Why do evaporative have to go on the roof. I find that strange, seeing as that's the hottest place. Why aren't they put under the house? Is it a practicality due to ducting access?  
If I do this, I think there's a local guy who installs Daikin split system for around 2.5k (not sure which one) just as a real life price to compare against.

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## SilentButDeadly

> One thing about evaporative, are you supposed to have windows open for them to operate properly?  
> Evaporative may be fine but will split work just as well and without needing to open windows? 
> Why do evaporative have to go on the roof? 
> Why aren't they put under the house? 
> Is it a practicality due to ducting access?

  Yes.  Rule of thumb is window opening should be twice the area of the vents 
Probably.  As long as it is properly sized. 
They don't have to.  They can be ground mounted on a frame and ducted under the floor or back into the roof.  However, not many houses have sufficient room under the house for a swampy or its 200mm ducting plus they rely on quite large vents into the house so having a 300mm square vent in the floor of a room might be considered impractical.  Plus there can be noise issues with close placement to windows etc when on the ground.

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## phild01

My take on this:
Having the window open wouldn't be letting hot air in but pushing the rooms hot air out.
Having it on the roof would mean ducting in the roof space conserving room space and cooler air should be entering high up.

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## r3nov8or

Evap air feels more natural and 'fresh' with some windows slightly open, but never feels as dry and crisp, nor even quite as cold, as refrigerated. IMO

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## JB1

I think Evaporative is fine in dry climates up until it gets to 35+.  
After that my experience in Melbourne is that it's just pushing hot humid air. 
However when you really need air-conditioning (35+, god forbid 40+) you really need refrigerated A/C. 
Remember that super hot spell we had in Vic in mid Jan this year. My split systems didn't skip a beat, pregnant wife was at home that summer and I was suprised that the electricity bill wasn't much more, even if it was triple what it was, it would be worth every cent during that hot month.

----------


## shauck

> I think Evaporative is fine in dry climates up until it gets to 35+.  
> After that my experience in Melbourne is that it's just pushing hot humid air. 
> However when you really need air-conditioning (35+, god forbid 40+) you really need refrigerated A/C. 
> Remember that super hot spell we had in Vic in mid Jan this year. My split systems didn't skip a beat, pregnant wife was at home that summer and I was suprised that the electricity bill wasn't much more, even if it was triple what it was, it would be worth every cent during that hot month.

  That is the most critical point. I don't intend to use it for anything else but those type of days. No point if it doesn't work, *guaranteed*, on the hottest days. All the other points are still important too but that one point is the reason for getting one. The rest of the points will decide which is the best compromise to suit this ridiculously small space aesthetically without killing the bank account. I feel like I'm going round a bit in circles. Hopefully I'll settle on one.  
At the moment, I think I'm leaning towards a split over the front door which faces the whole house. Any recommendations on Daikin models (or equivalent) that would work well for 36m2 - 45m2. Slimmest, least obtrusive models?

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## Moondog55

As this is partly an economic decision why not go with a simple "box in a window" aircon?
Cool the hottest room in the house and/or the bedroom and take them with you when you go or leave them as part of the sale.
Cecile and I often use a small portable swampy in conjunction with the big A/C units as the really dry air seems to exacerbate our mild asthma

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## shauck

Nah. Sorry. Value the window too much. 
Any recommendations on Daikin models (or equivalent) that would work well for 36m2 - 45m2. Slimmest, least obtrusive models?

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## phild01

LG did make the best unit appearance wise but I couldn't find it on the website.  Maybe there was a problem with it and they discontinued it, don't know!  It took on the appearance of a flat type of picture.

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## shauck

> LG did make the best unit appearance wise but I couldn't find it on the website.  Maybe there was a problem with it and they discontinued it, don't know!  It took on the appearance of a flat type of picture.

  LG do seem to go for the aesthetic section of market. Are they any good tho?

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## phild01

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=l...ml%3B318%3B251

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## Moondog55

> Nah. Sorry. Value the window too much.

  Just as well; as we just sold the unit we had spare

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## phild01

> LG do seem to go for the aesthetic section of market. Are they any good tho?

  Their fridges work fine and well made so assume the same for A/C.

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## Brian7886

Their air cons arent the greatest. Relatively high breakdown rate. Generally pcb related. There is better units for the same money thats for sure

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## shauck

> Their air cons arent the greatest. Relatively high breakdown rate. Generally pcb related. There is better units for the same money thats for sure

  Which models would you consider for this situation?

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## shauck

> just as well; as we just sold the unit we had spare

  :u

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## phild01

Su, it is a temporary solution for you and asking which is best will mean more money.  Any brand can come with negative comments. For my money I would stick with something that makes economic sense for you and maybe look at something that has enough warranty to cover your need.  Even a Bunnings one will have this.
 A cheap unit might fail after 5 years.  One that costs twice as much might take twice as long to fail.  Doesn't sound like you will use it much so you may never see a failure. 
I believe many failures occur because of the way they are installed and if not done competently an expensive unit will fail just as quickly as a cheap unit.
My unit has got the odd negative comments and has been going strong for around 15 years, no service calls, moderate use and just cleaning the filters.

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## shauck

Phil, people do appreciate it when you put in quality items. It may not get it's money back but it may sell a house better. I'll feel better too.  
If I'm prepared to pay 2.5k to install a Daikin which is roughly what it would cost by a local installer for a possibly larger unit (partner is property manager and has seen this price a fair bit), just wanting to know which model would be ok?  
3.5kw or do I really need 5kw (bigger, hence uglier). Hoping the 3.5kw model would be fine.  Daikin FTKS35L - Air Conditioner - Buy Online - GetCool.com.au Pty Ltd this one is 3.5kw which is slightly undersized (23-29m2) for my 36m2 area that I'd like to cool.  REAVS Brisbane - Daikin Split System Cooling Only Inverter Wall Mounted 5.0Kw K Series this one is 5kw and for room 29-40m2 which is a little bigger than the area I'd like to cool.

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## shauck

> My unit has got the odd negative comments and has been going strong for around 15 years, no service calls, moderate use and just cleaning the filters.

  What unit are you using?

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## phild01

> What unit are you using?

  Fujitsu, and not saying they a great brand but they work well enough.  The older one is a 6Kw Japanese unit using the old gas, and a newer but second hand inverter type I think is made in Taiwan.  I selected the outdoor areas for the compressors to pull air from under the house rather than having them located in a hot sunny spot.
I think if you do go split that you try and get a reputable installer rather than going with the retail store.  I had a guy who specialises in commercial units and he was very good.  I laid out the pipework/electrical as I wanted to conceal it as best as possible.  An installer doesn't want to muck around too much with the aspect of aesthetics.

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## shauck

Definitely getting an installer and I can be there if there's any finessing required to make it look neater.

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## phild01

> Phil, people do appreciate it when you put in quality items. It may not get it's money back but it may sell a house better. I'll feel better too.  
> If I'm prepared to pay 2.5k to install a Daikin which is roughly what it would cost by a local installer for a possibly larger unit (partner is property manager and has seen this price a fair bit), just wanting to know which model would be ok?  
> 3.5kw or do I really need 5kw (bigger, hence uglier). Hoping the 3.5kw model would be fine.  Daikin FTKS35L - Air Conditioner - Buy Online - GetCool.com.au Pty Ltd this one is 3.5kw which is slightly undersized (23-29m2) for my 36m2 area that I'd like to cool.  REAVS Brisbane - Daikin Split System Cooling Only Inverter Wall Mounted 5.0Kw K Series this one is 5kw and for room 29-40m2 which is a little bigger than the area I'd like to cool.

  I think I read in earlier threads that Daiken should be avoided as it is not as good as it once was.  Anyhow 2.5K seems far too much for a small unit like that.  Check out some units here: Split System Air Conditioner | Appliances Online

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## JB1

I'd recommend Panasonic. 
Good performance AND value for money.

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## Brian7886

Food for thought. Today ive installed 2 systems. 1x fujitsu 3.5kw 1800 installed. 1x fujitsu 5 kw 2100 installed. Im about to put in a fujitsu 9.2kw. 3500 installed.  
2500 would get a 7kw in most brands (quality) installed. If its a daikin 5 or 6 for 2500, id find a different manufacturer because in reality daikin are over priced. Its the sole reason i stopped my partnership with them

----------


## phild01

> Food for thought. Today ive installed 2 systems. 1x fujitsu 3.5kw 1800 installed. 1x fujitsu 5 kw 2100 installed. Im about to put in a fujitsu 9.2kw. 3500 installed.  
> 2500 would get a 7kw in most brands (quality) installed. If its a daikin 5 or 6 for 2500, id find a different manufacturer because in reality daikin are over priced. Its the sole reason i stopped my partnership with them

  I reckon this is reasonable and a good guide.

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## shauck

seeing some stuff on this site that  seem well priced  MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC 4.2KW WHITE SIGNATURE SERIES INVERTER SPLIT SYSTEM 
also 4.2kw systems which may be just right as goldilocks said. 
still hearing Daikin are highly regarded.

----------


## phild01

> seeing some stuff on this site that  seem well priced  MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC 4.2KW WHITE SIGNATURE SERIES INVERTER SPLIT SYSTEM 
> also 4.2kw systems which may be just right as goldilocks said. 
> still hearing Daikin are highly regarded.

  That's a nice looking unit and could well be the best size for your space.
My neighbour had a Daiken and the head unit went a horrible shade of yellow.

----------


## shauck

> That's a nice looking unit and could well be the best size for your space.
> My neighbour had a Daiken and the head unit went a horrible shade of yellow.

  he he

----------


## r3nov8or

We have a large Electrolux. No issues over about 12 years.

----------


## JB1

> Food for thought. Today ive installed 2 systems. 1x fujitsu 3.5kw 1800 installed. 1x fujitsu 5 kw 2100 installed. Im about to put in a fujitsu 9.2kw. 3500 installed.  
> 2500 would get a 7kw in most brands (quality) installed. If its a daikin 5 or 6 for 2500, id find a different manufacturer because in reality daikin are over priced. Its the sole reason i stopped my partnership with them

  I thought you didn't think highly of Fujitsu?  
I have 3 Fujitsu's and 1 Panasonic. I [IMG][/IMG[IMG][/IMG]]think the Panasonic is better value. Both work well.

----------


## ringtail

Urgggh. Wife got a cold from the disease ridden AC inhabitants at her work. Now she is generously passing it on to me. Sharing the love.  :Mad:  :Tongue:

----------


## Brian7886

> I thought you didn't think highly of Fujitsu?  
> I have 3 Fujitsu's and 1 Panasonic. I [IMG][/IMG[IMG][/IMG]]think the Panasonic is better value. Both work well.

  mate Fujitsu arent my top unit. But im now a fuji dealer. 3 reasons 
1. Competitive market. Fujitsu have a high RRP but sell to us for such a low price we can match places like harvey norman, bing lee, beta, good guys, even when they have their crazy sales on. And we offer the full package of sale, install and are warranty agents. This is something that most of the retailers wont be able to offer. This gets us over the line on majority of sales when these places are in the picture
2. Popularity. People see Fujitsu everywhere, regardless of anything else, people buy what they have heard of. Like above, Daikin has this perception of being 2nd to none. There is a big reason for that…….they only sell through specialist dealers, and that ensures quality workmanship on install, minimising unnecessary call outs. 
3. Range. Fujitsu is one brand that offers a product for any application.  
I myself have in my current home an 8kw Panasonic unit in the living and a 2.5kw MHI in the bedroom.  
I sell those 3 in my day to day sales. Panasonic can be a bit pricier, and their other let down is current 8kw units are twin fan outdoor and high. MHI, Fujitsu etc dont go that tall until the 9.2 
Fujitsu had a poor range of units around 2006-2007. This has not been the case since really.  
We are working a great partnership with Fujitsu and getting some really good jobs out of Fujitsu's backing of their dealers. Other brands arent so great in that regard. And expect you to work within a $100 margin from purchase price to Sell price. for $100 its not even worth trying to sell them.

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## r3nov8or

> Urgggh. Wife got a cold from the disease ridden AC inhabitants at her work. Now she is generously passing it on to me. Sharing the love.

   Soooooooo, that would make your wife an AC inhabitant? but she may have actually got the cold from you (because you are obviously the stronger being and didn't present symptons as early as her) and she spread it to her workmates...

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## Smurf

I'm an electrician not an A/C installer, but a few observations. 
Fujitsu - personally I wouldn't buy one, simply because they don't seem to go the distance in the long term. I've heard a few too many horror stories of major failures (uneconomic to repair) after around 6 years (let me guess, they come with a 5 year warranty?) and I'm all too aware of their dud control boards some years ago - not sure if they have improved or not but the design was truly rotten at one point. That plus their heating performance struggles when it's close to zero outside, thus making them a poor choice here in Tas where heating is the only real reason for buying such a system in the first place. 
Panasonic - does the job, only ever heard one real complaint about quality. 
Daikin - works well and, here in Tas at least, their marketing is helped by having had implicit state government backing via the electricity industry since the late 1980's. Over the years Hydro and then Aurora have pushed heat pumps (the universally used Tassie term for what everyone else calls reverse cycle A/C) _extremely_ hard with advertising, and it just so happens that they've always featured Daikin products. End result is that Daikin has a huge market share in Tas, certainly more dealers than most other brands combined, and all without any real need to directly advertise themselves. How reliable they really are I'm not sure, though I haven't heard any complaints, but they certainly do work extremely well for heating when it's seriously cold outside. That point, heating performance, being the underlying reason for the power industry's implicit backing - for quite some time the electricity industry itself was providing a consumer warranty (over and above the manufacturer's warranty) regarding the heating performance of such systems. 
Mitsubishi Electric - does the job. Never heard of any real problems with them. 
LG - no experience with their air-conditioners. But if some of their other products are any indication then I wouldn't consider them as a high quality brand. 
All that said, I haven't got around to getting one of these systems yet. But at some point I will, and at that time I'll look at real energy efficiency performance data, heating performance at low temps, and reliability track record to make a decision. Based on last time I looked at that for someone (parents) a couple of years ago, well let's just say they ended up with a Daikin. Efficiency was second place after MHI, both have a good reliability record, not much difference in price, but Daikin has 10+ times more dealers so presumably better parts availability should something go wrong down the track.

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## phild01

To mention again, my two Fujitsus, old and older, have no issues at all.  My sister's Panasonic ducted had problems after about 4 years.  If a system is to be rubbished then a compilation of stats should be looked at rather than the anecdotals.

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## Brian7886

U say fujitsu are uneconomical to repair. Then stay away from daikin. Condensor fan failure= replacement of fan and 4, yes 4! Pcbs on the outdoor unit.  
And parts are dear. Fujitsu lg mhi panasonic all have incredible parts supply, and cheap. And only 1 pcb each in the outdoor. Dont look back 20 years or even 10 years at what was good. Technology has changed theres no cap start cap run compressors now. Its all electronics. And in that daikin are no more superior than any other brand

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## shauck

So, still wondering which models (not just makes) would be recommended for the really hot weather. I'm not that concerned if one is a couple hundred dollars more than another. Not if there's significant benefits to be had. 
It would seem slimmer models may have a lower efficiency, would that be right? Having said this, so long as it works on the day, that's the primary goal.  MITSUBISHI ELECTRIC 4.2KW WHITE SIGNATURE SERIES INVERTER SPLIT SYSTEM Are Mitsubishi Electric worth considering such as this one? I like it because it's depth is only 195mm and most are 230-ish or some are even more which would stick out more visually.   CS/CU-E15PKR PANASONIC 4.4KW ECONAVI INVERTER SPLIT SYSTEM This Panasonic is well priced I think and it's depth is slightly more but less than most and it's EER is better than the Mitsubishi Electric in link above (3.67)

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## ringtail

> Soooooooo, that would make your wife an AC inhabitant? but she may have actually got the cold from you (because you are obviously the stronger being and didn't present symptons as early as her) and she spread it to her workmates...

  Nah, it's all her  :Biggrin:  She is surrounded by sniffling, coughing, sneezing carriers day in, day out. I'm amazed it took this long actually.

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## shauck

Here's another good looking option. Slightly higher price but even smaller unit and better EER (3.82).  FUJITSU 5.0KW INVERTER SPLIT SYSTEM "DESIGNER RANGE" 
Whatcha reckon?

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## phild01

> Here's another good looking option. Slightly higher price but even smaller unit and better EER (3.82).  FUJITSU 5.0KW INVERTER SPLIT SYSTEM "DESIGNER RANGE" 
> Whatcha reckon?

  That looks nice too.
A couple of things, see if you can get a bit of an assessment of the immediate floor area to be conditioned, don't so much factor in the adjoining areas.  Get the size recommended plus some more.  If you get too much more you might find the temperature sensor doesn't control the unit well and it might run when you prefer it not to run.  The sensors are generally rubbish anyway and all units should be provisioned with a remotely located sensor IMO.
Also, watch for the decibel ratings of the indoor head unit as in a small area you would want a quiet fan noise.

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## Brian7886

I just got back from installing a 5kw fuji in the designer range. Great little unit. U will be restricted by height as when it runs the front face lifts up to allow air in and air out. Depending on what you have cornise wise this may restrict u

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## shauck

The floor area in living/kitchen is 18m2 the two bedrooms which are directly off this area (doorways always open) are 18m2. I figured that 36m2 just puts it into the 5kw range (based on other info too - calculated as 3.9kw required)  
So maybe stick with the 4.2kw Mitsubishi Electric? 5kw would be too much?

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## shauck

> I just got back from installing a 5kw fuji in the designer range. Great little unit. U will be restricted by height as when it runs the front face lifts up to allow air in and air out. Depending on what you have cornise wise this may restrict u

  Ah. Ok. How much room does it need above it?

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## phild01

Even though the other rooms may be open,  the air doesn't circulate there as the door openings are too small for this and it really takes forever for much temperature change to happen there, can be a bit of a losing battle.  Factoring in those extra rooms may not work out well and depends how much opportunity there is for the air to travel further to those parts.  I would consider ceiling fans as previously suggested for the bedrooms as well.

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## Smurf

> U say fujitsu are uneconomical to repair. Then stay away from daikin. Condensor fan failure= replacement of fan and 4, yes 4! Pcbs on the outdoor unit.

  If the fan failing causes the boards to break then that's a terrible design. No doubt about that. 
To be honest, I think these systems have been made unnecessarily complex with more electronics than necessary and it seems to be the electronics which lead to trouble in most cases. 
I know someone who had an older Panasonic unit. Installed 1997, left running 24/7/365, broke down 2012 and replaced. That's the sort of lifespan I'd expect from such a system really. Refrigeration system + fans = both long established technolgies that *shoudln't* break down too soon.

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## Brian7886

1997 it would have had 1 control board, fan caps, start and run caps.  
Blame the demand for cheaper to run appliances for the current state of the game.  
Mass produced, profit profit profit. Cheaper components, lesser quality. Its the world we live in

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## shauck

> Even though the other rooms may be open,  the air doesn't circulate there as the door openings are too small for this and it really takes forever for much temperature change to happen there, can be a bit of a losing battle.  Factoring in those extra rooms may not work out well and depends how much opportunity there is for the air to travel further to those parts.  I would consider ceiling fans as previously suggested for the bedrooms as well.

  Just can't do ceiling fans. If you could see the room size and ceiling heights and limited space, you'd nod your head.  
Surely it will work to some extent?  
Are you saying I'd end up with a too big system (say 4.2kw) for the 18m2 lounge, (which would cause problems of it's own) and none of it will work on the rest of the 18m2 bedrooms.  
I find that hard to believe. Surely it'd drop the bedroom temps enough to make them bearable. Maybe not to same temp as living room but.... 
I figure this may be ridiculous but what about a little bit of cross flow air at the same time, assuming the air is moving at all as sometimes on those nights, it doesn't. The windows in living and kitchen are directly opposite windows/doors in bedrooms. This would mean letting in a bit of outside air which by late afternoon towards night time may be of similar temp, slightly cooler even to indoors temp.

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## ringtail

Su, if you crack ( only needs to be open 10 mm) a window open in those rooms air will be drawn into them. Watch the prevailing wind direction though.

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## shauck

> Su, if you crack ( only needs to be open 10 mm) a window open in those rooms air will be drawn into them. Watch the prevailing wind direction though.

  Awesome.

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## phild01

> Just can't do ceiling fans. If you could see the room size and ceiling heights and limited space, you'd nod your head.  
> Surely it will work to some extent?  
> Are you saying I'd end up with a too big system (say 4.2kw) for the 18m2 lounge, (which would cause problems of it's own) and none of it will work on the rest of the 18m2 bedrooms.  
> I find that hard to believe. Surely it'd drop the bedroom temps enough to make them bearable. Maybe not to same temp as living room but.... 
> I figure this may be ridiculous but what about a little bit of cross flow air at the same time, assuming the air is moving at all as sometimes on those nights, it doesn't. The windows in living and kitchen are directly opposite windows/doors in bedrooms. This would mean letting in a bit of outside air which by late afternoon towards night time may be of similar temp, slightly cooler even to indoors temp.

  Can only comment from my own experience.  On the very hot evenings, even having aircon on for several hours, the cool air just would not travel along the hall into the open rooms and I have tried cracking the windows open even placing fans in front of the doorways to draw a/c air into the rooms.  Only if the aircon was running non-stop all day would cooler air eventually get into the bedrooms.  I guess this is why ducted and multi-head systems are installed.
(ok no ceiling fans, but ceilings 2.4m high are sufficiently high enough for a fan).

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## shauck

> the cool air just would not travel along the hall into the open rooms.

  No hallway here.

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## phild01

> No hallway here.

  You should fare better than me but I still feel there will be unexpected delay cooling the rooms.  The small areas will help your cause though.  Maybe someone else can advise on this aspect.

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## shauck

> You should fare better than me

  hopefully

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## phild01

> hopefully

  Best to try and locate the wall unit towards those rooms rather than away.

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## ringtail

Despite my hatred of the things, I have lived in a few houses with AC. All have had one big split in the main living area and the bedrooms got by with ceiling fans. All we did was open the furtherest window a smidge and you could feel the cooler air coming into the room. By no means was it as cold as being in the main room but it works. We also used to turn the ceiling fans onto winter mode which would lift the cooler air up of the floor a bit more.

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## phild01

> Despite my hatred of the things, I have lived in a few houses with AC. All have had one big split in the main living area and the bedrooms got by with ceiling fans. All we did was open the furtherest window a smidge and you could feel the cooler air coming into the room. By no means was it as cold as being in the main room but it works. We also used to turn the ceiling fans onto winter mode which would lift the cooler air up of the floor a bit more.

  When I did this all I got was a blast of furnace air coming in, suppose it's a hard thing to know what will happen.

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## Moondog55

Su you could always install a small air transfer system 150mm inline fan and some insulated ducting, not perfect but I was happy with ours for what it is, bigger is better of course

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## phild01

> Su you could always install a small air transfer system 150mm inline fan and some insulated ducting, not perfect but I was happy with ours for what it is, bigger is better of course

  I too once thought this might be worth a go, where did you set up the transfer points? I thought it would need to feed in at floor level for summer and ceiling for winter.

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## Smurf

I have an air transfer system although it's currently used to move hot air only (since I don't have any form of A/C). 
Intake is above the freestanding wood heater and it goes to 3 outlets (one in each bedroom). Fan and main duct are 250mm, branching off to 3 x 150mm ducts to the outlets. Intake and outlets are both in the ceiling, with the airflow directed straight down from the outlets (removing the air diffuser massively improved performance). 
It works brilliantly. Prior to installing it, it would be 12 degrees in the bedrooms and 28 degrees in the living area. Now it's easily possible to maintain the whole house at the same temperature. Indeed by removing the hot air near the ceiling, it has even improved comfort a bit near the fire itself. 
There's also a 3.5kW electric heater inline with the system for when I can't be bothered to light the fire. Just switch that on and it heats the bedrooms directly. Thermostat in the main bedroom controls the heating element (fan is manually on or off).

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## ringtail

> When I did this all I got was a blast of furnace air coming in, suppose it's a hard thing to know what will happen.

  Depends on the prevailing wind direction and it strength. All sorts of things happen with positive and negative pressures depending on what gets opened and where. Opening a window perpendicular to the flow of outside air would be useless but opening a window on the lee side or even parallel to the wind direction will create a area of lower pressure as the wind moves past the opening. This should, in theory, cause the inside air to drawn out the window.

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## shauck

> Su you could always install a small air transfer system 150mm inline fan and some insulated ducting, not perfect but I was happy with ours for what it is, bigger is better of course

  Do you mean to remove the hot air near the ceiling and dump it outside or to take the cool air from the living space, near the floor and pump it into the bedrooms? 
Maybe in the next house this could be used in the upstairs bedrooms in summer. I'll be wanting to do some serious heating/cooling control in that house. It will be a 45deg pitched roof with rooms in the roof space.

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## shauck

> Depends on the prevailing wind direction and it strength. All sorts of things happen with positive and negative pressures depending on what gets opened and where. Opening a window perpendicular to the flow of outside air would be useless but opening a window on the lee side or even parallel to the wind direction will create a area of lower pressure as the wind moves past the opening. This should, in theory, cause the inside air to drawn out the window.

  Ah sailing references. I recently had it explained to me how a sail works and I found it fascinating. It's not air pushing the sail, it's being pulled, due to air flow in front of the sail being faster than behind it. Something like that.

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## Moondog55

> Do you mean to remove the hot air near the ceiling and dump it outside or to take the cool air from the living space, near the floor and pump it into the bedrooms? 
> Maybe in the next house this could be used in the upstairs bedrooms in summer. I'll be wanting to do some serious heating/cooling control in that house. It will be a 45deg pitched roof with rooms in the roof space.

  It moves air from one room to another Su; it works better to move warm air from ceiling level but it also works to move warm air to allow cooled air to move higher in the room 
Our system would work much better if we had used the proper sized fan and duct work but 150mm was what we got cheap on ebay.

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## Bloss

Sorry, been overseas for a few weeks so haven't been able to reply. If you really want to guarantee that on the one or two days in Daylesford (not Melbourne or Sydney) that you have high heat & humidity then refrigerated split system is the go. If you choose a heat pump model then it has the added advantage of allowing you to quickly take the edge off in those periods (in autumn & spring - even a cold snap in summer where you are) when you don't really want to be bothered lighting up the slow combustion. 
Daikin and Fujitsu and Panasonic & LG are all OK - these are sold in the thousands so stories of one off bad experiences (or good ones) are no more than that- stories. All 'brand' names have similar life times & performance else they get whacked in the market place. 
There is great benefit in running costs to go for a higher star rating than a lower one, but if you really are selling then that's a benefit mostly to the next owners. Good comparisons can be found here: Cooling | Energy Rating and here: Air Conditioners - AS/NZS 3823.2 and here: Air Conditioners - AS/NZS 3823.2 
Once you have a list of model numbers and the indicative price go to stores or online Air Conditioning | Appliances Online and negotiate - you'll always get a better deal, but include installation cost too.

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## Brian7886

> Sorry, been overseas for a few weeks so haven't been able to reply. If you really want to guarantee that on the one or two days in Daylesford (not Melbourne or Sydney) that you have high heat & humidity then refrigerated split system is the go. If you choose a heat pump model then it has the added advantage of allowing you to quickly take the edge off in those periods (in autumn & spring - even a cold snap in summer where you are) when you don't really want to be bothered lighting up the slow combustion.  *Daikin and Fujitsu and Panasonic & LG are all OK - these are sold in the thousands so stories of one off bad experiences (or good ones) are no more than that- stories. All 'brand' names have similar life times & performance else they get whacked in the market place.* 
> There is great benefit in running costs to go for a higher star rating than a lower one, but if you really are selling then that's a benefit mostly to the next owners. Good comparisons can be found here: Cooling | Energy Rating and here: Air Conditioners - AS/NZS 3823.2 and here: Air Conditioners - AS/NZS 3823.2 
> Once you have a list of model numbers and the indicative price go to stores or online Air Conditioning | Appliances Online and negotiate - you'll always get a better deal, but include installation cost too.

  not true. Daikin have a 'good' reputation but when it comes to break down rates, ease of repair and parts they are left for dead by many brands. Where Daikin have always been smart is they restrict their dealerships to more specialist guys, rather than harvey norman, who then employ some guy who just throws it in the house and walks away. Daikin dealers are just that, dealers, they have good training on the product service etc, and stand by the product. You wont find many quality air con companies selling LG as they arent reliable at all. Its not a product you will stand by. Daikin arent either to me, and i wont even get into an argument about that. But what is ensured with Daikin is good reliable service from the dealer. And this almost negates any ill  feeling toward the unit when it fails, as a specialist will sort it out with ease.  
Fujitsu has come ahead in leaps and bounds over the last 5 years. Their early inverter models were terrible, but the last few years have seen quality improve, and their parts supply and warranty claims department is probably the best that i deal with.

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## Bloss

> not true. Daikin have a 'good' reputation but when it comes to break down rates, ease of repair and parts they are left for dead by many brands. Where Daikin have always been smart is they restrict their dealerships to more specialist guys, rather than harvey norman, who then employ some guy who just throws it in the house and walks away. Daikin dealers are just that, dealers, they have good training on the product service etc, and stand by the product. You wont find many quality air con companies selling LG as they arent reliable at all. Its not a product you will stand by. Daikin arent either to me, and i wont even get into an argument about that. But what is ensured with Daikin is good reliable service from the dealer. And this almost negates any ill  feeling toward the unit when it fails, as a specialist will sort it out with ease.  
> Fujitsu has come ahead in leaps and bounds over the last 5 years. Their early inverter models were terrible, but the last few years have seen quality improve, and their parts supply and warranty claims department is probably the best that i deal with.

  A big claim for one not wanting to get into an argument . . . saying a general comment to stick to major brands is 'not true' and then suggesting Daikin is worse than others.  
Just another anecdote  - markets are very good at sorting this stuff out. 
I have no brand preference - my point is that all brands can have their issues and mainly that I prefer better known to 'no-name' brands, that's all. 
In the commercial world (unit developers etc) Daikin, Fujitsu, Panasonic & Mitsubishi are all very common. With A/C 'you get what you pay for' seems to have high relevance. 
As to 'quality A/C companies' - most people have no way of telling so really on word of mouth.

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## Brian7886

> A big claim for one not wanting to get into an argument . . . saying a general comment to stick to major brands is 'not true' and then suggesting Daikin is worse than others.  
> Just another anecdote  - markets are very good at sorting this stuff out. 
> I have no brand preference - my point is that all brands can have their issues and mainly that I prefer better known to 'no-name' brands, that's all. 
> In the commercial world (unit developers etc) Daikin, Fujitsu, Panasonic & Mitsubishi are all very common. With A/C 'you get what you pay for' seems to have high relevance. 
> As to 'quality A/C companies' - most people have no way of telling so really on word of mouth.

  ill take my word for it as i run an air conditioning company. Im a licensed electrician, refrigeration mechanic and boily. I have been a warranty service agent for over 15 years for every company you mentioned, this goes back beyond the introduction of the inverter air conditioners. Like i said, Daikin has always been a reputable brand, but if someone is telling you they are the ducks nuts they've either fallen for the Daikin sales ploy or they are giving you the Daikin sales ploy. As i said, their inverter air conditioners arent as reliable as their systems of 20 years ago. They have a domino effect in their computer boards which is nothing short of frustrating.  
You are right when you say most people have no way of knowing, but basically you will find a reputable person if you find an air con dealer is the guy who will install it, service it, take care of your warranty claim, repair it. Not just the guy who will sell it to you, then never come back when you have a problem.  
This is something you would find out just by asking the phone number you call 
and as for you thinking i was saying the more expensive arent better than the less….of course they are better, thats not what i was saying. There is basically 3 tiers in air conditioning (splits)  
Top - Panasonic, Mitsubishi heavy industries, mitsubishi electric, toshiba, fujitsu, daikin, lg (probably a bit borderline) 
Middle - Samsung,  Teco, Kelvinator, Actron (split not ducted) Midea, Carrier (all those except Samsung are all made in china by Midea basically)  
Bottom - Akai, Stirling, Dux, Mistral etc. Basically anything you see in a super market or bunnings 
These are basically priced accordingly, and most in either tier would be similar in features etc. My issue isnt with what they can do and how well they can do it, its breakdown/reliability and price to repair (out of warranty)

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## OBBob

> ... Basically anything you see in a super market ...

  What! You mean Aldi isn't a good place to buy an air conditioner... :eek:

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## Brian7886

> What! You mean Aldi isn't a good place to buy an air conditioner... :eek:

  haha definitely not. the warranty on those stirlings isnt worth the paper its printed on. Youd be surprised how many people buy those things, call us up, then complain its going to cost more to have it installed then they paid for it

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## phild01

> What! You mean Aldi isn't a good place to buy an air conditioner... :eek:

  They have a nice looking one on sale this week, good value if you don't mind risky!

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## Smurf

> Top - Panasonic, Mitsubishi heavy industries, mitsubishi electric, toshiba, fujitsu, daikin, lg (probably a bit borderline)

   In a previous post you said that LG aren't reliable at all. So how can they be a "top" brand?

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## Brian7886

> In a previous post you said that LG aren't reliable at all. So how can they be a "top" brand?

  did you miss where i wrote border line?  
I would consider it in between top and 2nd tier, but its basically priced (rrp) into that top tier sort of unit. If someone offered me any of Panasonic Mitsubishi (Heavy or Electric) Fujitsu, Daikin or Lg. Lg definitely wouldnt be the 1 i would take thats for sure. Panasonic to me would probably make the best quality, lowest break down rate and best performing air con (in split systems) on the market. Thats my opinion. And i rarely even sell them anymore (only because they supply in large quantities to retailers and they sell them for less than our cost most the time). We go to 10's of 1000s of breakdowns every year on air cons, sell 1000s and install 1000s more that we havent sold every year. I know what i wouldnt want in my house.  
Saying that LG have improved a great deal in the last few years. Their 'neo plasma' era of air cons were shocking. They do have a good parts supply though, generally over night every time

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## Bloss

> did you miss where i wrote border line?  
> I would consider it in between top and 2nd tier, but its basically priced (rrp) into that top tier sort of unit. If someone offered me any of Panasonic Mitsubishi (Heavy or Electric) Fujitsu, Daikin or Lg. Lg definitely wouldnt be the 1 i would take thats for sure. Panasonic to me would probably make the best quality, lowest break down rate and best performing air con (in split systems) on the market. Thats my opinion. And i rarely even sell them anymore (only because they supply in large quantities to retailers and they sell them for less than our cost most the time). We go to 10's of 1000s of breakdowns every year on air cons, sell 1000s and install 1000s more that we havent sold every year. I know what i wouldnt want in my house.  
> Saying that LG have improved a great deal in the last few years. Their 'neo plasma' era of air cons were shocking. They do have a good parts supply though, generally over night every time

  Thanks for this post and the one above - I am looking at heat pumps right now (ACT has heavy winter cooling needs only occasional summer A/C needs) and to get a 'review' from an experienced industry person is a good 'word of mouth' reference. Getting advice that isn't just a sales pitch is hard - and I no longer have my former industry links with people like you who were installing and maintaining every working day. 
Sorry for the hijack Su!   :Redface: )

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## Smurf

> ACT has heavy winter cooling needs

  Cooling the house, in winter, in the ACT.  
At least you won't need to worry about having a fridge. Or for that matter you probably won't need a freezer either. :Biggrin:

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## shauck

> Thanks for this post and the one above - I am looking at heat pumps right now (ACT has heavy winter cooling needs only occasional summer A/C needs) and to get a 'review' from an experienced industry person is a good 'word of mouth' reference. Getting advice that isn't just a sales pitch is hard - and I no longer have my former industry links with people like you who were installing and maintaining every working day. 
> Sorry for the hijack Su!  )

  No probs. It's been an interesting thread. Keep it going.

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## shauck

> I just got back from installing a 5kw fuji in the designer range. Great little unit. U will be restricted by height as when it runs the front face lifts up to allow air in and air out. Depending on what you have cornise wise this may restrict u

  Hi Brian, still wondering how much space I might need to install this above the front door.

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## JB1

You may struggle over a door unless you have high ceilings. Generally you want at least 150mm gap between the top of the unit and ceiling.

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## Brian7886

> Hi Brian, still wondering how much space I might need to install this above the front door.

   https://www.fujitsugeneral.com.au/pr...cificationsTab 
well the unit is 282mm high. The face will rise between 50-70mm i think. cornice is generally enough, so mounting it 20-30mm below the corning (giving it room to get onto the bracket) should be fine. Basically if you have a bit over 300mm between corning and door frame/trim you will be sweet

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## phild01

If it's above a door be mindful of the external stuff, compressor, pipe and wiring ducting and how it will look.

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## Brian7886

> If it's above a door be mindful of the external stuff, compressor, pipe and wiring ducting and how it will look.

  a good installer would still use colour bond and match it in well with the exterior of the house. Mitred corners etc etc

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## r3nov8or

The install instructions for ours (Electrolux) said not to place the indoor unit above a door. Never did find out why not to, but we put it there anyway as there was really no other option for us to maximise reach in our space. We planned it while doing the extension so all pipes are concealed within the frame. No pipes looks great, but sometimes (like right now!) wonder "what if something goes wrong"...

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## Brian7886

Or if it was not r410a/r32 rated pipe you cant re-use it on future units.

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## phild01

> Or if it was not r410a/r32 rated pipe you cant re-use it on future units.

  Yes, same issue here.  Pipes routed through house frame and has to be replaced for any new unit.  The science of understanding such contamination would be interesting.

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## Bloss

> Cooling the house, in winter, in the ACT.  
> At least you won't need to worry about having a fridge. Or for that matter you probably won't need a freezer either.

  Ah - the problem with trying to do a quick post . . . heating of course . . .  :Redface:

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## Brian7886

> Yes, same issue here.  Pipes routed through house frame and has to be replaced for any new unit.  The science of understanding such contamination would be interesting.

  not just that mate. Walls are thicker in the newer pipe, and newer pipe doesnt have a seam like the older r22 rated stuff. The r410a/r32 units run on a higher pressure and i have seen a fair few times people who have replaced units with the old pipes and pin holes appearing in the seams etc.  
Its like anything, if you put in a new wall oven that was rated at 32A would you leave your 20A circuit? Probably not.

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## r3nov8or

> not just that mate. Walls are thicker in the newer pipe, and newer pipe doesnt have a seam like the older r22 rated stuff. The r410a/r32 units run on a higher pressure and i have seen a fair few times people who have replaced units with the old pipes and pin holes appearing in the seams etc.  
> Its like anything, if you put in a new wall oven that was rated at 32A would you leave your 20A circuit? Probably not.

  How old is 'old'? Our extension was 2002/3. What was the standard then?

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## Brian7886

> How old is 'old'? Our extension was 2002/3. What was the standard then?

  thats pretty much on the border line mate. around 2002 the r410A units were starting to creep in, along with more and more inverter models. Its not hard to tell the 2 apart, a fridgey would be able to tell them apart on inspection very easily.

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## phild01

> thats pretty much on the border line mate. around 2002 the r410A units were starting to creep in, along with more and more inverter models. Its not hard to tell the 2 apart, a fridgey would be able to tell them apart on inspection very easily.

  Isn't the gas type written on the compressor, I pretty sure it is on mine.

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## Brian7886

> Isn't the gas type written on the compressor, I pretty sure it is on mine.

  yeah but if you had an air con re-installed later on you could use r410A rated pipe with r22 gas too. Just not the other way round.

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## shauck

Thanks Brian. Our ceilings are high enough. Haven't measured but we've got plenty of room above door. I'll get the installer specialist in and discuss the different options with him. Cheers everyone.

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## shauck

To update the thread, we got the air con installed today. Nice to have contacts as apparently others will be waiting quite a while. This is the one we got ASTG18LUCB FUJITSU 5.0KW INVERTER SPLIT SYSTEM "DESIGNER RANGE" It's a Fujitsu 5kw and lookin ok on the wall. Bit better than I expected. I decided to hide the drain behind the architrave so all I had to do was cut the weatherboards back a bit to fit that in. The installer ran the pipes along the underneath of the verandah roof so that's pretty good too. Cost about 530 bucks     
Come on summer....

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## phild01

That looks really neat Su, drain nicely hidden too.  Reckon you got a good size as well :2thumbsup:

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## Uncle Bob

Yes, nice job. All looks neat.

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## Brian7886

Not bad. Still not a fan of plastic trunking as it will discolour. A few saddles on the pipes wouldnt have hurt either. 530 bucks is a great price i wouldnt have done that for 530.

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## phild01

Thought it was a reasonable price as well.

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## Brian7886

I wont do an air con for less than 600 unless its a swap over using duct power and slab.

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## phild01

Almost Dentist money there.

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## shauck

Wouldn't say dentist money. Three guys (two being apprentices) working on it plus the electrician, because he's so busy and wouldn't have fitted it in any other way. Not sure how long it took, bit less than a couple of hours (not everyone there the whole time). I did the work for the hiding of the drain pipe.  
The electrician put a switch in and pulled wires. That was difficult for both of them due to how much insulation kept getting in everyone's way. I work with electrician on other jobs and will do so in the future so he's probably looking after me as well. The fact they all co-ordinated so quickly was awesome.  
It's country town stuff and knowing each other, me building work contacts, Tanya (property manager is her job) giving him lots of work in the past, etc. Also just nice guys.  
I know of another installation that will be done by a plumber because they can't get this guy until next January sometime. They were quoted a Fujitsu 5kw installed for $2600. Ours worked out at  $2000

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## shauck

> Not bad. Still not a fan of plastic trunking as it will discolour. A few saddles on the pipes wouldnt have hurt either. 530 bucks is a great price i wouldnt have done that for 530.

  Do you mean the stuff over the door? I think I'll paint it the same colour as the house. Bit of undercoat first. I would have thought some sort of sleeve over the pipes but I don't know what materials you guys have available.

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## phild01

> Do you mean the stuff over the door? I think I'll paint it the same colour as the house. Bit of undercoat first. I would have thought some sort of sleeve over the pipes but I don't know what materials you guys have available.

  Could you cover that pipework with 10mm weathertex placing over the nearby batten, care not to force the pipes near the unit.

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## Brian7886

> Do you mean the stuff over the door? I think I'll paint it the same colour as the house. Bit of undercoat first. I would have thought some sort of sleeve over the pipes but I don't know what materials you guys have available.

  
Yeah that stuff. I only use it in internal applications as it discolours so definitely throw some paint on it.  
Having now seen the situation id have taken the pipes through the roof/eave and down the cavity/through top plate to the indoor to avoid having anything visible at all near that door

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## Brian7886

> Almost Dentist money there.

  Not really. Unlike a dentist who used only tools, there is plenty of materials on an air con install. Pipe, trunking, wires, drain gear, plus if needed slabs brackets etc. by the time u pay out wages there is no law against earning a buck. Not to mention you cant go charging heaps more than other blokes or u dont get the work. 
And we are dual trade so do all wiring and piping unlike some who wont touch a wire and charge 500 for the install. Then a sparky 200 to run the wires.

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## Brian7886

> Wouldn't say dentist money. Three guys (two being apprentices) working on it plus the electrician, because he's so busy and wouldn't have fitted it in any other way. Not sure how long it took, bit less than a couple of hours (not everyone there the whole time). I did the work for the hiding of the drain pipe.  
> The electrician put a switch in and pulled wires. That was difficult for both of them due to how much insulation kept getting in everyone's way. I work with electrician on other jobs and will do so in the future so he's probably looking after me as well. The fact they all co-ordinated so quickly was awesome.  
> It's country town stuff and knowing each other, me building work contacts, Tanya (property manager is her job) giving him lots of work in the past, etc. Also just nice guys.  
> I know of another installation that will be done by a plumber because they can't get this guy until next January sometime. They were quoted a Fujitsu 5kw installed for $2600. Ours worked out at  $2000

  
Yeah 2000 is about right. I think our most recent price adjustments saw a 5kw designer at about 1350 or so. So 650 takes up the rest

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## phild01

> Not really. Unlike a dentist who used only tools, there is plenty of materials on an air con install. Pipe, trunking, wires, drain gear, plus if needed slabs brackets etc. by the time u pay out wages there is no law against earning a buck. Not to mention you cant go charging heaps more than other blokes or u dont get the work. 
> And we are dual trade so do all wiring and piping unlike some who wont touch a wire and charge 500 for the install. Then a sparky 200 to run the wires.

  Took it to mean pretty much around $600 for swap over with everything there already, wiring pipes etc.  I know if supplying material and sparkie it has to be more.  Su's deal was good.

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## phild01

> Yeah that stuff. I only use it in internal applications as it discolours so definitely throw some paint on it.  
> Having now seen the situation id have taken the pipes through the roof/eave and down the cavity/through top plate to the indoor to avoid having anything visible at all near that door

  Do you do all jobs this way because so many wouldn't just wanting to do quick and easy.  Don't you find going down the wall cavity a bit hard to do with noggins and roofing getting in the way!
I commend you as I found myself doing this for one I have.

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## Brian7886

Every job is different. Anything where i have to go into a roof i go through cavity. Neater, easier. Not exactly faster. Ill drill down with an extension rod to get through noggins if need be.

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## Brian7886

> Took it to mean pretty much around $600 for swap over with everything there already, wiring pipes etc.  I know if supplying material and sparkie it has to be more.  Su's deal was good.

  As i said before, cant re-use pipe from r22 gas, you would vac it for 3 days to try to dry it of any remnents of r22. Not worth it. Unless it was chased in walls in a high rise or something that is. Then you do what you gotta go

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## phild01

I know I would have to replace my pipe, but some units today (cheap ones) might be replaced after 5 years, are there newer gases in this short time that mean swapping pipes.

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## shauck

The job was complete install, including a slab, pipes and wiring. Nothing pre-existing.  
In this case, choosing to go over the verandah battens was ok with me.  
To get inside the ceiling/beneath the roof, would be tricky as there is a double ceiling and other unusual aspects to the construction that existed when we bought the place. The old ceiling was left in place and a new one built below. I think obstructions would have made it a drawn out process and cost way more than I was prepared to spend or do.  
I'm happy enough. Wouldn't mind not seeing the pipes but other than that...

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## r3nov8or

If you were fussy, you could easily install some type of lightweight angle (plastic, zinc) attached to the wall and to behind the first roof batten to hide it all. But painted up you'll probably soon forget it's there.

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## shauck

> If you were fussy, you could easily install some type of lightweight angle (plastic, zinc) attached to the wall and to behind the first roof batten to hide it all. But painted up you'll probably soon forget it's there.

  If I get bored and run out of other things to do... :Biggrin:

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## Gaza

Good job stu, 
I am going around in circles with A/c for our place which we are middle of building looking like 11kw ducted around 8k plus   
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## shauck

I think ducted would be my preference in the new house to be built. BTW, who's stu?  
Cheers, Su.

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## ChocDog

Nice external paint colour shauck. It looks like a grey from the photo, is it? Got a better photo showing the colour from a distance? I'm sick and tired of trying to choose the correct paint colour for our weatheboards...!

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## Bloss

> I think ducted would be my preference in the new house to be built. BTW, who's stu?  
> Cheers, Su.

  'Su' after a brew or two . . .?  :Biggrin:

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## goldie1

> 'Su' after a brew or two . . .?

  More stewed  then stu   :Biggrin:

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## shauck

> Nice external paint colour shauck. It looks like a grey from the photo, is it? Got a better photo showing the colour from a distance? I'm sick and tired of trying to choose the correct paint colour for our weatheboards...!

  Thanks ChocDog. If you go the link, it will show you more pics of the painting stage of the reno. It's a light brown, sort of coffee coloured. Hides dirt well. It's Dulux Linseed  for the walls and White Duck Quarter for the trim. So many cottages/houses using grey, I figured brown is the new grey.   http://www.renovateforum.com/f176/18...02/index5.html

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## shauck

Stu is my alter ego. I get him to do all my heavy and hard work while I paint my nails.

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## ChocDog

Thanks for the info about the paint Shauck, much appreciated.

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## Moondog55

So let us all know how it works after the first time we get three or more 40+ days in a row.

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## shauck

Sure will. 
I think I can say that after a high 30s day it worked pretty nice, especially in the lounge. We only put it on for a few hours in the late afternoon, set to 24 degrees. It didn't bring the bedrooms down as much as the lounge but I think if we put it on early in the day, it will keep the temp low to start with.

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## Moondog55

With only one head it takes a long time for the cooler air to circulate through a house, if you do need to cool the other rooms perhaps it's time to invest in that air transfer system.

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## Brian7886

> Sure will. 
> I think I can say that after a high 30s day it worked pretty nice, especially in the lounge. We only put it on for a few hours in the late afternoon, set to 24 degrees. It didn't bring the bedrooms down as much as the lounge but I think if we put it on early in the day, it will keep the temp low to start with.

  Thats pretty much the idea. The less work it has to do (temp differential wise) the better it will do.  
Fact is youll never cool a seperate room the same as the room with the air con in it

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## shauck

So we finally had a hot day yesterday, worthy of trying out the aircon. Not sure what the temp got to but it was 40ish, maybe a bit more. Very happy with the result. 
Usually on days like this, I close the house up early and wait it out. By early afternoon it's pretty warm inside but hotter outside still. By late afternoon it's getting hot inside and still too hot outside to open up the house. By evening it's only just cool enough outside to open up and get some cross flow to cool down, then leave it all open for the night, especially warm nights. Basically not fun. 
Yesterday I closed up the house early and at 11am, before the house warmed up inside, turned on the aircon to 24 degrees. I was in shorts and singlet and ended up putting a tshirt on and moving to a different chair as it was blowing cool air on me just a bit too much. (spent day in front of telly watching DVDs) 
My thinking was, not to let the bedrooms and bathroom warm up as they would be harder to cool down. So turn it on early with all the doors open. Living room stayed cool all day with only slight temp increase in late afternoon and bedrooms and bathrooms slightly warmer.  
It didn't get comparatively cool enough outside to turn off and open up the house so when I went to bed at 11pm, I just turned off aircon and kept house closed. Slept fairly comfortably on top of doona until 6am and then opened house again for half an hour or so as residual heat built slightly through the night.  
Haven't turned it back on yet but will probably a bit earlier today as a little residual heat in the building. I'm sitting in the bedroom a the moment which would be the warmest room and feeling fine after all that. 
Hope it works as well on week long heat waves.

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## Moondog55

Glad it worked out for you S. We are very comfortable here in Geelong where it was 42C yesterday and warming up rapidly now [ 10:00 AM] but see my new post on the double layer roof question

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## r3nov8or

Sounds good Su.  
Today's wind (in Geelong, anyway) is a real test of a house, as along with radiant heat the blown heat finds it's way into every crevice...

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## shauck

Glad yours is working too M.  The wind is a factor. Our floor boards are fairly gappy. Still, the house kept it's cool. I've been thinking about a double skin roof lately. Some sort of system must be possible. Fully sealed/flashed tin roof with another layer of tin with air gap between so it vents from lower end, up to ridge

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## Moondog55

I'd appreciate your input on the double skin roof query. It should be more effective than cheap shade sails

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## Brian7886

definitely the way to do it. A lot of people dont realise that refrigeration works by absorbing all the heat in the space, not just by adding cool air. The less heat you need to absorb, the less work you give the air con, which means greater benefits. As i said in an earlier thread, but was told i was wrong by a person who doesnt like air conditioning is that if you turn it on early, you not only get greater cooling effects, because no heat is trapped in surfaces inside the house (furniture, flooring, etc etc) you are using the air cons energy to purely cool the area, instead of trying to take the heat out of the room as well. This costs less, and offers greater comfort. If you had waited til 4pm to turn it on and everything in the house is hot, you would have noticed when u turned it off, that it wouldnt have taken long to warm up again.

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## shauck

> If you had waited til 4pm to turn it on and everything in the house is hot, you would have noticed when u turned it off, that it wouldnt have taken long to warm up again.

  Definitely proved this true by leaving the house closed up over night without aircon and had a relatively good sleep. Will continue to use this method for sure.

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