# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  Electrical Engineer allowed to do Electrical work?

## gg23

hi,m
Have been reading in some other posts and the Electrical Safety Act 2002 that Electrical Engineers are able to carry out household electrical works? IS this true or have I misread the info? Also if this is the case, ie that electrical work can be carried out by an engineer, how does one get a cert of compliance. 
Thanks
greg

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## chrisp

Greg, 
The short answer is NO. 
The system is setup as a very closed shop and doesn't seem to allow for any exemptions for professionally qualified engineers - effectively, the only way to obtain a licence is via an apprenticeship. 
In my view, the system is well overdue for an overhaul.

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## gg23

hi chrisp,
Still cofused. What does this mean from Electrical Safety Act 2002
(3) A person is not required under subsection (1) to hold an 
electrical work licence for the purpose of the following—  
(b) performance or supervision of electrical work in 
practising the person’s profession as an electrical 
engineer;

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## Master Splinter

It means you don't have to be a Licensed Electrician to do the work of an electrical engineer; but it does not mean you can get an electrician's license because you are qualified to design power stations/extremely high voltage equipment/domestic electrical fittings or whatever. 
You've still got to do your four year apprenticeship, because electrical wiring is really, really, really tricky, m'kay.  
That must be true, as even with this highly restricted and unique licensing regime (leading to what must be the most highly skilled electricians in the world) Australia still has the highest fatality rate for electrical workers.   
I, for one, certainly would not want to even think about letting some unemployed dime-a-dozen Ph.D whose last working experience was designing and installing the superconducting magnets on the Large Hadron Collider do anything as complex as undo a switch from a wall and screw in a new one!!  How can you even think of comparing a degree course with a full on trade certificate!!! 
Please excuse the sarcasm.

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## chrisp

Greg, 
If you are in the mood for a good laugh, have a look at a class of licence called an "occupier's licence".  It's a class of licence that allows a qualified electrical engineer such as yourself to do their own electrical work on their own premises.  It's probably perfect for you.  All you have to do is sit the required exams and you're in!  Ha, ha, the jokes on us.  You also have the have 80 hours approved supervised work experience too - doesn't sound that hard does it?  Oh, to do the work experience you have to have a supervised workers licence/permit.  But you have to be indentured to be allowed to be a supervised worker. 
It's an amazing set of rules and regulations that would do Joseph Heller proud  :Smilie:  Bottomline is that I've been told by the regulator that the only way to get a wiring licence these days is via an apprenticeship.  As for having any other electrical or related qualifications, it doesn't count a cracker - you'd might as well be the kid who works at the hamburger joint. 
To add insult to injury, the industry seems to push the line that the rules are there for safety, safety, safety - and are nothing to do with maintaining a closed shop!  
BTW, if you are a plumber or similar, you can get a restricted disconnect-reconnect licence.  These restricted licences are discretional - just because you've done (and passed) the course doesn't mean you're entitled to one.  Good luck getting a restricted licence just so you can change a light fitting at your own home.  I've yet to hear a sensible explanation as to why these licences are not generally available to the general public.  Surely, training people will help improve their safety? 
If you read some of the responses to electrical questions posted on this forum, you'd think electrocution was a major cause of death in this country, or that you'd almost certainly burn your house down or kill your loved ones if a non-licenced person wires something.  In fact, driving on the road is far more dangerous. 
I don't think the "mushroom principle" (i.e. keep them in the dark and feed them s???) is the way to improve electrical safety.  In my view, providing people with readily available  knowledge and training is the way to truly improve safety (but may not be compatible to maintaining a closed shop  :Rolleyes: ). 
The present system is a joke.  I find it hard to believe that safety can possibly be the prime motive for the restrictive licencing system.  It's a system that needs reform.

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## nev25

......

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## Ashore

> hi,m
> Have been reading in some other posts and the Electrical Safety Act 2002 that Electrical Engineers are able to carry out household electrical works? Depends where you house is , and what you called a house , 
> IS this true or have I misread the info? Also if this is the case, ie that electrical work can be carried out by an engineer,Where I worked you could
>  how does one get a cert of compliance. Tafe, or marine collage 
> Thanks
> greg

   No Probs ( he says as he orders his pizza )

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## elkangorito

> The present system is a joke.  I find it hard to believe that safety can possibly be the prime motive for the restrictive licencing system.  It's a system that needs reform.

  Chrisp, whilst I agree with you on many things about this, there are some things with which I disagree. 
There is no doubt that the "system" needs reform but I fear that "reform" may come at a cost. For example, the reinstatement of electrical inspectors for domestic installations & the de-privatisation of energy authorities. Only when these two things occur can we go "back" to a more monitored (& therefore safer) system. 
I do advocate that individuals be permitted to perform & carry out electrical modifications & extensions to their own homes PROVIDED that it is inspected by a regulatory body (an inspector). Todays cost cutting measures have eliminated such inspectors. 
I have worked with many an electrical engineer (ones with degrees) & they didn't know three fifths of five eighths of bugger all about "wiring". They thought they did but they were wrong. Whilst I may seem to be targeting these people, I also target electrical contractors, who MAY (not WILL) take shortcuts to save five cents. Such shortcuts can cost human life. 
Overall, the contractors are not short on knowledge but they are highly concerned about money (time).
The engineers, although holding a degree, may have never twisted many wires in their life & as such, wouldn't have a clue about twisting wires or doing "proper connections". 
Why do I mention wire twisting & connections? Very simply because it is very important. Again, many electrical contractors fail to twist wires properly all in the name of saving time (five cents). Bad connections (includes wire twisting) is what burns houses down. 
The way wires are twisted is VERY important. It is the difference between a hot joint or a cold joint. A hot joint will burn your house down. If an apprentice has been taught correctly, he will have this "wire twisting" drilled into him. If you think I am kidding, come to Thailand where wires are twisted together & then taped up...no BP connectors or the like. Here, houses burn down all the time. The cause? Unknown (yeah, right!!!). 
Maybe I was lucky...I had my bum kicked for not twisting wires properly, when I was an apprentice. I also had my bum severely kicked for not doing ANY connection in the proper manner. The "proper manner" was something that took quite a while to perfect. 
The only way that anybody can "connect" electrical apparatus correctly & twist wires correctly is through practice & supervision. An electrical engineer does not generally have this expertise unless he/she also underwent an appropriate apprenticeship. 
Again, an electrical contractor may have the necessary skills to do a "proper job" but may not do so to save money. This has little to do with qualifications/experience & more to do with "business". 
What can be done about this?
De-privatise energy suppliers.
Employ electrical inspectors for domestic installations.
Provide education for the DIY person...not so that they can do everything themselves but so that they can at least have an understanding of the dangers of electricity & can appreciate the time it takes to perform certain seemingly "mundain" tasks (wire twisting/connections etc).
No domestic or domestic/commercial residence (block of flats) can be sold without having a *complete* electrical inspection carried out.
Electrical engineers cannot perform or supervise domestic wiring tasks until they have proven that they not only understand the wiring rules (as required by electricians) & are able to proficiently carry out "connections" & wire twisting (proof of ability).

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## Honorary Bloke

I am sure that is the longest post I ever saw that focused on wire twisting as an art form requiring years of study and practice.  :Rolleyes:  :Rolleyes:

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## gg23

desparately searching for a comprehensive guide on wire twisting. Anyone? 
Gg

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## chrisp

elkangorito, 
I have no issue whatsoever with requiring anyone who is doing electrical work to have the required competency.  I also appreciate your post on the importance of making good connections (twisting wires). 
What I do have issue with is that the *only* training that is acceptable is a four year apprenticeship - regardless of prior training or skills.  It seems excessive to have to do a four-year apprenticeship to learn to "twist wires" and understand the wiring regulations?   
The Americans use a 110Vac system so in most part they are dealing with twice the current (for the same appliances on 230Vac) than in Australia.  They seem to like those "twist on" connectors rather than the screw type tunnel connectors we use here.  I wonder if they are required to do a four-year apprenticeship to do their electrical work - or are American homes burning down at some unexplained rate? 
I do like the idea of having electrical inspectors.  Our construction industry uses the inspector model.  For example, It doesn't matter if your house is owner-built or trade-built, it has to meet the required standards and it goes through the same inspection process in either case.   
No one seems have too many concerns with owner-built homes/extensions - as long as there was a building permit in place and the required inspections occurred (and a certificate of occupancy issued).  And, yes, I've seem some shoddy owner-builder work too - but the shoddy workmanship seems to occur where there is no permit (or inspections) in place.

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## Master Splinter

Actually you could probably do an end-run around the regulations by seeing what the training and assessment requirements were for overseas qualifications.  Do an overseas course by correspondence, arrange a holiday to go and get a license in that country, then back to Oz and get your O/S quals recognised under the international skills recognition framework. 
Hummmm, there could be a nice little earner there organising working holidays in NZ...

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## journeyman Mick

> Actually you could probably do an end-run around the regulations by seeing what the training and assessment requirements were for overseas qualifications.  Do an overseas course by correspondence, arrange a holiday to go and get a license in that country, then back to Oz and get your O/S quals recognised under the international skills recognition framework. 
> Hummmm, there could be a nice little earner there organising working holidays in NZ...

  
Worked with a sparky from Ireland (no jokes about what's black and crispy and hangs from the ceiling please  :Biggrin: ) on a few boat refits, he was the operations manager for this particular company. He'd looked at getting his license over here but it was simpler for him to just work in different fields and get new qualifications. :Doh:  
Mick

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## nev25

What elkangorito is talking about is EXPERIENCE 
Thats why a 4 year apprenticeship EXPERIENCE 
There is a big difference between knowing and doing 
Mate you can sook and winge all you like on the forum but its simply not going to happen   

> I do like the idea of having electrical inspectors.

  As you serious 
here in Vic theres almost more inspectors than sparkies.
Gee one in ten jobs of ours gets audited
Energy Safe Vic have opened 2 offices in regional Vic and employed  Representatives to oversee the auditing and prosecution of non compliant and non licenced electrical work 
Then theres the Independence inspectors 
They are friggen ever where

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## Uncle Bob

What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

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## Vernonv

Sorry UB, but you will have to do a 4 year apprenticeship before you can learn than ... apparently. :Confused:

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## nev25

> Sorry UB, but you will have to do a 4 year apprenticeship before you can learn than ... apparently.

  Yes it is part of a 4 year apprenticeship 
As I said Its all about experience

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## kombiman

> What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

  
end over end   :Yikes2:  
Au is the safetycrap country unfortunately.  This precludes much sharing of information in more than just electrickery with everyone worrying about risk etc. 
Common sense does not appear to be that common and those who are seeking to comply get thwarted by this dogma.  Those who dont care just do it anyway. 
Perhaps this 'electrical' part should be removed from the forums  :Rolleyes:

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## chuth77

> What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

  Depends, Are you left or right handed? Northern or Southern Hemisphere? 
Clockwise from end on...  
Electrical Engineers are allowed to undertake Electrical Work. It's covered by the various regulations, however, it can only be undertaken if it is a necessary part of their employment. I've contacted the ESA previously about this, and I'm trying to dig out their response. Basically they stated you must be heavily involved in the works as part of your employment before you can undertake the works...

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## chrisp

> Worked with a sparky from Ireland (no jokes about what's black and crispy and hangs from the ceiling please ) on a few boat refits, he was the operations manager for this particular company. He'd looked at getting his license over here but it was simpler for him to just work in different fields and get new qualifications.

  Mick, 
Could you post more details?  I'd be interested to hear the account of an overseas qualified tradesman and their troubles with obtaining Australian certification. 
Chris

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## Master Splinter

Personally, I twist wires widdershins when viewed from the insulation end. 
Tip for newbies - copper wire is notch sensitive, so make sure that you don't leave a cut mark in it from side cutters - use proper wire strippers (cheapies are $3 from Bunnies). 
There's a thread here somewhere -  http://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php  - about getting Aust qualifications, but I can't find it at the moment.

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## Uncle Bob

> What's the correct direction to twist wires? Anti or clockwise (looking down on cut end)?

  The correct answer is, with the twist that's manufactured into the cable. Or course this only applies for stranded cables  :Wink:

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## Ashore

so which way do you twist single core cables, or do you need 4 years experiance to work that out as well  :Cool:

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## chuth77

> The correct answer is, with the twist that's manufactured into the cable. Or course this only applies for stranded cables

  
Wrong... It doesn't matter which way the strands are twisted.... It should be clockwise from end on, because as the termination screws in, it will tighten the twist.... Anti-clockwise twist and the thread action will undo the effective twist....

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## Dan574

oh my god chuth you have just given detailed info to the unqualified.  Mate dont you know that you should NEVER give any  info on how to do electrical work.  :Biggrin:

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## chuth77

> oh my god chuth you have just given detailed info to the unqualified. Mate dont you know that you should NEVER give any info on how to do electrical work.

  Dan, by the sounds of it on here, there are some "qualified" who I've just given advice to! :2thumbsup:

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## Dan574

Mate its been 24 hours or since you posted and the world hasnt ended so it must be ok. :Wink:

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## elkangorito

My comments in blue.   

> elkangorito, 
> What I do have issue with is that the *only* training that is acceptable is a four year apprenticeship - regardless of prior training or skills.  It seems excessive to have to do a four-year apprenticeship to learn to "twist wires" and understand the wiring regulations?  I agree, chrisp. The subject of "Connecting cables to electrical apparatus" is one that is not even taught at T.A.F.E. (somebody correct me if I am wrong). Education about this subject seems only to be available via a "handed down" technique, which is generally backed up by technical theory. This way of education takes time as it is about 98% practice & 2% theory. It's a bit like driving a car...you take basic lessons, get your license & then you THINK that you can drive a car. It doesn't take long to realise that it takes years of driving under many & varied conditions to be considered "good" at it. 
> The Americans use a 110Vac system so in most part they are dealing with twice the current (for the same appliances on 230Vac) than in Australia.  They seem to like those "twist on" connectors rather than the screw type tunnel connectors we use here.  I wonder if they are required to do a four-year apprenticeship to do their electrical work - or are American homes burning down at some unexplained rate?  I do not know the statistics about electrical fires in the U.S. but if you go to any U.S. diy forum, you will find lots of instances of faulty circuit breakers (a very high number compared to Australia) & "hot joints". This is directly related to the fact that, as you say, the current is quite high. Disregarding supply voltage, any "high current" application will require special attention to all connections.
> The yanks use "wire nuts", a "twist on" B.P. connector (no screws). These things have benefits & faults, the faults being the same as that of B.P. connectors...bad wire twisting & incorrect tightening will cause a "hot joint". The good point...they are quick to apply.

   

> The correct answer is, with the twist that's manufactured into the cable. Or course this only applies for stranded cables

  This is absolutely correct & must be strictly adhered to.   

> Wrong... It doesn't matter which way the strands are twisted.... It should be clockwise from end on, because as the termination screws in, it will tighten the twist.... Anti-clockwise twist and the thread action will undo the effective twist....

  This is incorrect because if the bared end of the wire is twisted contrary to the "natural" twist of the wire, a stress point is created. It is then only a matter of time when a combination of heat, vibration & "work hardening" cause fracturing of the strands at this stress point (usually about 2mm to 5mm from the bared wire, just under the insulation, which means that it can't be seen). This is less evident in wires that have a high number of strands (>64 strands).

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## 2x4

So...... do we need to have a left and a right handed sparky on site at all times , and 
asign them twisting resposibilites for clockwise/anticlockwise ends.   
Hang on a minute.. 
This will totally change the rough in of a job. What a nightmare this will be. Having to co-ordinate both left and right handed sparkies, pulling in cables ensuring that there is a harmonious meeting of twists in the same direction at the same termination point. 
I can see it now. Having to pull circuits out ( or part ther of ), spin the length around and re-install said length. 
Going to be costly :Doh:

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## elkangorito

> So...... do we need to have a left and a right handed sparky on site at all times , and 
> asign them twisting resposibilites for clockwise/anticlockwise ends.   
> Hang on a minute.. 
> This will totally change the rough in of a job. What a nightmare this will be. Having to co-ordinate both left and right handed sparkies, pulling in cables ensuring that there is a harmonious meeting of twists in the same direction at the same termination point. 
> I can see it now. Having to pull circuits out ( or part ther of ), spin the length around and re-install said length. 
> Going to be costly

  Would you prefer someone like me to do the job or someone who doesn't give a toss about "detail" to do the job? BTW, the "detail" is always the most important thing about any job.

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## chrisp

> I agree, chrisp. The subject of "Connecting cables to electrical apparatus" is one that is not even taught at T.A.F.E. (somebody correct me if I am wrong).

  Now this is getting interesting.  So, as far as you know, the mechanics of connecting and joining cables isn't actually taught at TAFE, but rather just picked up along the way during the apprenticeship. 
Is twisting in the direction of the "natural twist" common, or formally taught, in the electrical trades or is it just "good practice"?

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## 2x4

[QUOTE]Would you prefer someone like me to do the job or someone who doesn't give a toss about "detail" to do the job? BTW, the "detail" is always the most important thing about any job[QUOTE]  
All a bit to serious mate. 
Agreed , it is the detail that makes a quality job, but honestly, in the course of wiring a house etc. ,you will more than likely have differing ends at the same  termination point. 
Probably couldnt afford the return flights to Thailand for you anyways, just to show me the ropes on twisting a bit of copper . :Biggrin:

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## elkangorito

> Now this is getting interesting.  So, as far as you know, the mechanics of connecting and joining cables isn't actually taught at TAFE, but rather just picked up along the way during the apprenticeship. 
> Is twisting in the direction of the "natural twist" common, or formally taught, in the electrical trades or is it just "good practice"?

  Chris, in my experience it is learnt along the way. From memory, T.A.F.E. try to make you understand something about "hot joints" & why (& how) they occur. When I attended T.A.F.E. back in the eighties, the detail about this was not gone into.
On a different note, I did serve part of my electrical apprenticeship in the R.A.A.F. as a radio technician. My training covered such things as "High Reliability Hand Soldering", which went into detail about twisting wires & the stress placed upon such wires if twisted incorrectly.

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## elkangorito

[quote=2x4;749199][quote]Would you prefer someone like me to do the job or someone who doesn't give a toss about "detail" to do the job? BTW, the "detail" is always the most important thing about any job  

> All a bit to serious mate. 
> Agreed , it is the detail that makes a quality job, but honestly, in the course of wiring a house etc. ,you will more than likely have differing ends at the same  termination point. 
> Probably couldnt afford the return flights to Thailand for you anyways, just to show me the ropes on twisting a bit of copper .

  I don't know what's not serious about houses that burn down. 
In Thailand, a common saying is "Up to you". So, I'll leave it "up to you" to decide if you want a proper job or not. Please bear in mind that a "proper job" means that your interests (& your family's interests) are taken seriously.

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## 2x4

ไ้ฟะำอำพ  กรแา้ำฟก 
Probably doesnt make much sense, but at least I tried. :brava:

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## nev25

.  

> As I said Its all about experience

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## ab1

I'm a bit puzzeled by all of this twisting the same direction?? Last time I striped some stranded 2.5mm the 7 strands run straight in the insulation. You can twist it left or right. The only twisted stuff I've seen is bare earths from the cable made in the sixty's and seventy's. 
You guy's giving the advice sure you know what you're talking about?

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## elkangorito

If the cable is stripped correctly, it will have a twist (this is part of the cable manufacturing process). In your case, I will suggest that the cable was not  stripped correctly.

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## Animalector

perhaps stripping the cable correctly involves a twist during the strip and hence providing a twist in a particular direction.  I thought stripping wire was really quite simple..  get a wire stripper, set so as not to cut the core wires, strip...??? 
Andy

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## Uncle Bob

Sorry to open such a can of worms. Actually I was never taught this at my Electrical Technician's Certification either, though it probably wasn't part of the syllabus. It was pointed out to me by fellow workmate who was an old school Electrician.
Apologies again for being a smartarse and raising this, and also to the OP for dragging his topic off course.

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## Dan574

im sorry I find this hard to believe but if it isnt taught at TAFE or wherever then the powers that be have not deemed it important enough to worry about.  If it was something that was potentially as dangerous as some are suggesting then Im sure it would be covered, surely.

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## WillyInBris

Well I just thought I would chime in on this myself just purchased another house and will start renovating mid Jan the worst part is because I have moved from Brisbane I have lost all my contacts need new ones and I hate the thought of finding another good sparky makes me shake in my boots. 
Some of the quotes on this forum by he sparkys make me laugh 4 years experience my ass two sparkys that did work for me didnt even check what their apprentices did. 
On two separate occasions I had sparkys around with apprentices the first one stood out side talking on his mobile whilst his first year apprentice who had only been working for 6 months (thats what he told me) replaced all the light fittings and points in the house when he finshed his boss filled out the bill and gave it to me I then asked when he would be checking the young mans work he said he didn't need to as he does a good job and got really pissed off when I said I would only pay the bill if he checks some of his work and if he had a problem with that maybe I should call the relevant authorities he said i don't have time for this crap walked off yelling obscenities and I never saw him again, I guess it was friday afternoon so I shouldn't have expected to much. 
Another occasion we were having a line run to the pool and spa this time a second year apprentice turned up to do the job without his super and said that his boss was hung over from the melb cup so he will do the work and his boss would check it,  well tickle me blue when the kid finsihed the job he wrote out the bill and said I could pay via creditcard and it was all good to go, I told the young lad that I wont turn it on or use it untill his boss signs off on it anyway he said oh ok but its all good looked a bit pissed off then left. 
I had a sparky called Jason that came out to do the AirCon a week later told him what happened and asked him to look at the young guys work as the pool was starting to go green and I had left a number of messages on the other sparks mobile but he hadnt called me back this Jason then spent 30mins tidying it up ran a few checks charged me $50 and a cup of coffee and said don't pay the bill if they come looking for the money and for them to call him and that's what happened a month later he rang looking for the money I was having a bad day at work and I told him to go $%^& himself and to call the sparky that had to finish the job for him and I never heard from him again neither did Jason lol. 
After that I used Jason that same sparky that did the Aircon work and so did a few mates until he decided to go to the mines he wasn't cheap but I never have payed cheap I just expected the guys that did the quote to at least check the apprentices under their supervision were doing the right thing we had long talks about the laws and he thought that renovators should be allowed to do certain work but should have to do a cut down course just couvering lights and points over a month with a test at the end and if they pass they then get a limited license and be insured to do the work adding that running lines to be inspected and had to be connected to the box by a sparky I am sure him and I could have solved all the worlds problems over a couple of coffees if we had the time  :Biggrin: . 
As you can see from my experience I would rather learn to do some of the works as the odds don't seem to be with us getting a proper job done two bad apples out of three aren't good that's for sure and don't even get me started on customer service with these turkeys don't turn up, late and don't care so do you hink they give a crap about what way the wire should be twisted. 
Anyone have a good Sparky in Wauchope that wont rip you off and does good work  :Redface:   
Willy

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## Bloss

In the ACT the following is referred to in a Note from ACTPLA: 
"Qualifications in electrical engineering will also satisfy the requirement for theoretical training.  Applicants need to be eligible for corporate membership of the Institute of Engineers, Australia."  http://www.actpla.act.gov.au/__data/...4/2039/en4.pdf 
I have a number of engineer friends who hold unrestricted licences in the ACT following application and a practical assessment (by 3rd parties such as TAFE). I know others who have obtained restricted licences allowing work on their own homes under supervision of an unrestricted licensee (who signs off with the regulator). 
Funnily enough NZ (which uses ANZ3000 standard as do we) is regulated in a much simpler and less restrictive way compared to Australia when it comes to residential work and its experience since the loosening of restrictions does not suggest a poorer result on quality of work or safety - and it has been watched and measured.   http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/temp...____17682.aspx 
The focus there is on the results of the work and education and access to good information not the licensing of the worker. Insurance claims and other measures that might indicate a failing system show a successful model that Australia could easily adopt. That does not mean open slather by any means - but a different way of compliance testing and certification of work. 
As to a closed shop - we might perhaps look at the vociferous opposition of a number of the unions to any proposals to free up the onerous regulatory requirements on a range of trades licensing as evidence that at least someone likes the restrictions for other than straight public safety reasons. 
Then again in building and elsewhere the unions are the clear leaders in trying to improve workplace safety where governments  of all complexions have failed to maintain and police standards (while spruiking the 'best practice' mantra.

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## 2x4

WillyinBris, sounds like you are a pom. The whinging part did not give it away so much as the "super" comment :Tongue:  
All trades have there good and bad days, and apprentices, alot of them anyway are a credit to there company. 
All the talk of twisting the wires in a certain direction is a load of .........in most situations. The main thing here is that the wires are twisted together firmly and the fixing screws are done up in a similar manner.
Its loose conections that can cause heating problems. 
All new cicuits should be tested for polarity,insulation and resistence and depending on the install , a trip time test. Most of the domestic sparkies will not have downloadable testing equipment, so when an electrician tells you an installation is good to go, and has left it energised there is no need not to use it.
A bit of trust/respect for the trades please. 
Whether an apprentice or a tradesman, the price is the same, and imho so it should be. 
If you dont like it either do it yourself or cough up the dollars.

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## WillyInBris

> WillyinBris, sounds like you are a pom. The whinging part did not give it away so much as the "super" comment

  Calling me a whinging pom thats a big call fella them fighting words but I did live in Brisbane for ten years maybe thats where I picked it up from  :Biggrin: ,  

> All trades have there good and bad days, and apprentices, alot of them anyway are a credit to there company.

  So it ok for an apprentice to work on my house with no supervision and for his boss Super  :Biggrin:  to not check his work at all, we are talking about my family living in this house sorry but this doent work for me we are talking about peoples lives, as you would seen I did finda good one in the end and he was a pleasure to deal with..   

> All the talk of twisting the wires in a certain direction is a load of .........in most situations. The main thing here is that the wires are twisted together firmly and the fixing screws are done up in a similar manner.
> Its loose conections that can cause heating problems.

  Thats something I wouldn't have been aware of but I do pay people to do these things so if its done by a person with a number of years experience I shouldn't have to worry.   

> All new cicuits should be tested for polarity,insulation and resistance and depending on the install , a trip time test. Most of the domestic sparkies will not have downloadable testing equipment, so when an electrician tells you an installation is good to go, and has left it energised there is no need not to use it.
> A bit of trust/respect for the trades please.

  I didn't see these take place how long would it have taken the apprentices boss to show me this and how they test? as when he was in the kitchen all he had was the outlets that I had purchased and a screwdriver nothing more.   

> Whether an apprentice or a tradesman, the price is the same, and imho so it should be.

  Wrong I am paying for a licensed electrician to do the work if he chooses to use a apprentice then that apprentice is under his supervision but in both cases it wasn't the case.   

> If you dont like it either do it yourself or cough up the dollars.

  As I said I don't mind paying the $$ for a job to be done I just expect it to be done properly wouldn't you. 
In the first case the lic Electrican stood out the front talking on his Mobile whilst all the work was being done. 
Second case the the lic Electrician didn't even turn up.
But obviously you see that as ok maybe I am wrong but I don't see how.

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## 2x4

In almost all cases WillyexBris, test results are not shown to the client. Not trying to be rude but they will more than likely mean nothing to you.
 Tradesman can not physically do all the work, they need help, commonly in the form of apprentices.
Supervision is in fact needed for all apprentices, but does not nesissarily(sp) have to be direct supervision.
I couldnt agree more that you and your families safety is paramount. 
To avoid dissapointment in the future , you may have to stipulate that you only want tradesmen on site, or apprentices with the amount of expieriance you think is needed to screw a gpo to the wall.

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## WillyInBris

> In almost all cases WillyexBris, test results are not shown to the client. Not trying to be rude but they will more than likely mean nothing to you.
>  Tradesman can not physically do all the work, they need help, commonly in the form of apprentices.
> Supervision is in fact needed for all apprentices, but does not nesissarily(sp) have to be direct supervision.
> I couldnt agree more that you and your families safety is paramount. 
> To avoid dissapointment in the future , you may have to stipulate that you only want tradesmen on site, or apprentices with the amount of expieriance you think is needed to screw a gpo to the wall.

  WillyexBris I like it  :Biggrin: , I just got pissed that the Tradesman didn't give a dam at all in either of these cases next time I will just ask the apprentice how you no a power point is ok and what they do to test it I will probably learn something that way. 
But I think we have got way off topic my fault I will start a new thread tomorrow with some questions that I need answers for hope you can help out 2x4.

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## Jason Firmstone

I am an Electrical Engineer and have had a full Electrical Supervisors Licence for about 35 years. In those days, to get the licence (without a formal apprenticeship) you were required to have had a certain length of practical experience as an electrician (documented informal appreticeship or supervised experience), a Degree or Certificate in Electrical Engineering and then pass an oral test for the licence.  
As I don't have a contractors licence any more, I am only allowed to wire my own properties (not anyone elses).
A contractors licence is simply an insurance fee to protect the public should they wish to make a claim on the electrician. 
However, what confuses me is why I cannot do simple like-for-like safety upgrades to my relatives homes at no charge? Like a lot of people, they tend to put up with potentially dangerous GPOs, Light fittings, power cords etc rather than pay a contractor.  Surely it is better for a family member to be able to fix up these items, if they waive the right (in writing) to make any claim. 
On the matter of preparing the wire ends, twisting the wires correctly and in the clockwire direction,  I have come across many many houses where some idiot has simply pushed the wires into the tunnel connector etc and then over or under tightened the screw. The end result is some strands can be cut off and/or some wires simply falling out of the tunnel. Its a fire risk either way. For some (most) people to get a proper understanding (feel) on how to prepare wire ends and how tight to correctly tighten up the screw can take years of experience during the apprenticeship before they are let loose in the world on their own. Don't get me started on how many years it can take for someone to solder or how to use a screwdriver properly.

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## Bros

Requirement for electrical contractor licence
(1) A person must not conduct a business or undertaking that
includes the performance of electrical work unless the person
is the holder of an electrical contractor licence that is in force.
Maximum penalty—400 penalty units.
(2) Without limiting subsection (1), a person conducts a business
or undertaking that includes the performance of electrical
work if the person—
(a) advertises, notifies or states that, or advertises, notifies
or makes a statement to the effect that, the person carries
on the business of performing electrical work; or
(b) contracts for the performance of electrical work, other
than under a contract of employment; or
(c) represents to the public that the person is willing to
perform electrical work; or
(d) employs a worker to perform electrical work, other than
for the person.
(3) However, a person does not conduct a business or undertaking that includes the performance of electrical work only because the person— (a) is a licensed electrical mechanic who— (i) performs electrical work for the person or a relative of the person at premises owned or occupied by the person or relative; or
(ii) makes minor emergency repairs to make electrical
equipment electrically safe; or

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## denaria

Do those 400 penalty units translate into something equivalent in real life? And where can I adopt an electrician?

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## SlowMick

penalty units are just the way the government define the penalties in the regulations that can be updated each year without having to replublish th regulations.  they may as well be called buckets of cash.  FWIW the Victorian Penalty Unit is $122.14 for the 2011/2012 financial year.

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## Jason Firmstone

Hello, 
An interesting reply from Bros, but below is a reply I just received from the Department of Fair Trading NSW. I am now more confused than ever whether I can do work for my relatives without a contractors licence? _Below is the section of the Home Building Regulation that relates to an exemption for a qualified supervisiior to do work on his own home or the premises in which he resides._ _22 Exemptions relating to the doing of specialist work_ _(1) An individual who does specialist work is exempt from the requirements of section 12 (Unlicensed work) of the Act if the individual is the holder of an appropriate supervisor certificate and the work is done in connection with:_ _(a) premises which the holder owns or a dwelling in which he or she resides_ _A qualified supervisor is unable to do work on relatives homes without having a full contractors licence._ _Yours sincerely_ _　_ _　_ _NSW Fair Trading_

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