# Forum Home Renovation The Garden Shed  Neighbours

## leeton

I need to share my frustrations with you guys...I have mentioned previously about my neighbour...well the sh*t has hit the fan...the trouble has been slowly brewing over a few months...I started extending the shed...only 3 metres...no permit...and she knew it...well guess or called the council...they came around and want me to submit plans for the deck, the roof over the deck, the spa..and the shed extension plans...bloody pain in the a*se...well time will tell...who will win the battle...I reckon we are good neighbours...not feralls...and the amount of work I have done for her (free)....and just one of those projects was her deck and pergola...and carport...with no permit...so who is ring the council tomoorow. 
I don't want to sound like a whinger...but ...she could only talk to me over the fence...we could have talked about it...she didn't mind sipping champagne in the spa...when she was hot....that's my story...what do you think.:mad:

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## Groggy

> ...what do you think.:mad:

  I think you don't know for sure, and you shouldn't "assume" in case it wasn't her. 
You never know who has dobbed you in.

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## leeton

Sorry Groggy....she admitted she rang the council...:mad:

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## bitingmidge

So why don't you have a permit. 
I am continually amazed at how "naughty" people feel to get away with building stuff without permits.   OK we all do it, one day I will have a pergola which will not be legal too, but not a three metre shed extension, deck etc etc. 
What's the motivation? 
What's her motivation in dobbing? 
What is dobbing on her going to achieve? 
What's wrong with being squeaky clean?? 
cheers, 
P

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## craigb

Why didn't you just go through the council in the first place? :confused:  
Then everything is legal and above board. You have the peace of mind of knowing your extension complies and you can cheerfully ignore yur neighbour.

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## craigb

Midge beat me to it.  :Smilie:

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## leeton

In reply to your questions...I put the spa in 8 years ago and built the deck about the same time...my ignorance...but I believed at the time if it wasn't over $7k...you didn't need  a permit...I am now told I was wrong...never assume...I know...the shed was a small addition...I got a permit for my garage...so I am not all that bad...why dob me in...I don't know...whay dob her in...cause it is gunna cost me...why not...revenge...what else can I say.

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## markharrison

> What's wrong with being squeaky clean??

  If you had lived in Pittwater Shire Council area you would not have asked that question! Trust me!!!!! 
Pittwater is run by The-Fairies-at-the-Bottom-of-the-Garden Inc. 
I've spent $5000 to get approvals (architects, engineers, DA, yet another survey which is only five years older than the last one etc) to put in two windows and a door (with no privacy impacts) without extending the boundary of the dwelling. On top of that I will need to pay for a certifier, which will not be Pittwater Council on a matter principle. 
Yet another reason I've had enough of Sydney and will be moving as soon as practicable.

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## bitingmidge

> Yet another reason I've had enough of Sydney and will be moving as soon as practicable.

  ... and when you do there'll be no requisitions on your searches and no delays on settlement as a result, saving you many times the cost if you were to invest the money received immediately!  
Trust me Mark, I have had decades of frustration, but it's always paid off in the long run.  As I have said on another thread, if people want to bypass the law, that's their business, but they have no right to complain when they get busted.  (and leeton isn't!) 
Cheers,
P

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## markharrison

I'm not suggesting that folks bypass the law. I got a parking fine a couple of weeks ago from a Pittwater Council ranger for stopping in a bus zone. Never mind the Bus Zone sign was almost illegible, five meters above the ground, almost completely hidden by trees and a bus hasn't stopped there in living memory. I was still technically in the "wrong" and I just paid up and shut up because I know I can't win. 
People have been playing fast and loose with councils in the past and it did have to come to an end. However, as usual councils have over-reacted and Pittwater Council has taken it to its illogical conclusion. 
I even had the colour I wanted to paint my house knocked back. I didn't want to paint it air-sea rescue orange with purple trim or anything else stupid. I wanted to paint it something similar to Dulux Pale Mustard (See  this link). Nope the DCP (section D3.4 for my suburb) says that "external colours shall be dark and earthy tones". Never mind that these colours are totally unsuitable as the main colour in a hot climate and will actually cause the installation of more and more air conditioning units to combat the thermal effects of this same insane decision. 
I'm led to understand that if you want to change the colour of your house in Pittwater that you may actually have to submit a DA. This has not been tested by council so far but the time is not far off I suspect. I had a council ranger quizzing me when I was painting my windows (for heavens sake!) with primer. To which I replied that if he didn't like the primer colour  there was another brush on the bench and that he was welcome to come up and help me finish putting on the top coat. He declined!

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## BrisBen

Geez Mark, It isn't until you read the paperwork that you see things like this: 
"Television antennas, satellite dishes and other telecommunications equipment must be minimised and screened as far as possible from public view" 
did the people who approved that kind of ordinance think about it ??? 
sure you can have Satellite TV - just build a big screen around it so the dish cant be seen, hmmm I wonder if that would affect the reception or would the council be willing to pay for all the services to be run underground to avoid spoiling the "visual landscape"

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## chromis

You have (probally) two other neighbours who also could of made a complaint. Even if next-doors did blab, the odds were there one of them would of.  
To save the drama, sometimes it's better to play by the book. Especially when there's an obvious or potential issue that might surface and bite you on the ar*se.

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## Rusty

Aww, shoot. Is this all fair dinkum? Isn't the coolest house in the street the one where the weirdo resident did his own reno's? I'm only a renter, so please excuse my naievete, but surely the council can't tell you which colour to paint your frikkin house? There's a house a block or two away from where I grew up that is notorious 'cos the owner did his own (unqualified) three story reno before planning went nuts- it's as ugly as hell, but still standing. I love that spirit; that makes a home unique-it's only the suburbs, after all. 
Say it ain't so! 
Rusty.

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## maglite

Rusty,
It seems to be the way these days.
a shire close to us stipulates what roofing iron is acceptable sqm and all that....something about reflective heat or whatever.
Other suburbs do stipulate what color you can paint your house.
A mate lives in Maylands and his agreement with the developer was 3 A4 pages long.....what he could and couldnt do.
They policed it too something that other mobs dont do....the others rely on the neighbours who are concerned about their "investment"

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## Shedhand

> Why didn't you just go through the council in the first place? :confused:  
> Then everything is legal and above board. You have the peace of mind of knowing your extension complies and you can cheerfully ignore yur neighbour.

  My last house had a big gum tree in the back yard and blind freddie could see it was sick. The neighbors said the council had to approve the cutting down of trees on private property :confused::confused:. So, being the good law-abiding citizen I am  :Shock: , I invited the council dude in charge of trees to inspect the tree and approve its removal. Nope! Wasn't gonna happen citizens. They got an arborist  :Rolleyes:  in (at their - or more correctly, ratepayer's expense) whose considered opinion it was that the tree was quite ok  :Cool: .
3 months later, while I was in Qld on hols a bleedin' ant infested branch about 4 feet in circumference smashed off in a wind and crushed my brand new garden shed  :Frown:  which the insurance company paid to replace (less my $100 excess) at a cost of $1560 bucks. There are 23 councils in Tasmania (used to be 40+ until Labor won government and amalgamated them) for a total population of 498,000 people :eek:. You think you've got it bad.:mad:

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## silentC

Not to mention the two widows who are suing their local councils because the trees they wanted to cut down fell over in a storm and killed their husbands (separate incidents). 
Yes, our council required us to submit a 'colour palette' with our DA. We are not allowed to use gal or zinc roofing iron either - must be tile or colorbond steel. 
On the upside, our council only takes 8 to 10 weeks to approve a residential DA.  
The RFS had a much bigger impact on what and where we could build than the council did though.

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## bitingmidge

Here's where it gets a bit messy..... PLANNERS. 
For 200 years we've gotten ( :Biggrin:  ) along just fine without them, no major stuffups, we've had roads, aquaducts and sanitation..... now some third year university student decides that she (It's always a "she" in planning offices) likes red, so we all have to paint our houses red. 
BUT:  the secret is in the word "palette".  You see, once you have a planning approval which says your house is turquoise, some Nazi in twenty years time can ping you if you repaint it. 
Among many of my standard "work arounds", from the outset I offer a clause which reads "colours to be from a sympathetic tonal range from a Palette derived from the Taubman's Heritage Colour range 1994", and to date have not had it knocked back.  
This creates a couple of situations. 
1)  No one except me has a copy of the 1994 colour card, and I'm not giving mine up, so who can argue that turquoise wasn't on it? 
2) The colour card has a squillion colours on it, so if you want to repaint your house red in the future, you are entitled to do so. 
On the other hand, galvanised, zincalume or white colorbond roofs are pretty much banned across the country now, because there have been so many complaints about glare.....but they do put out a light grey one which is painted to look pretty much like gal (if you squint) and it does fade to pure white in a few years... 
Most of the fun of dealing with these prickles is to provide perfectly legal solutions that will get up their noses when you tell them a year after you've got the approval! 
cheers, 
P (turning planning repression into fun)  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## Clinton1

I'd send a Greenie to you 'Midge, but I gave you one a while ago and the computer won't let me.
Love your solution.

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## silentC

> they do put out a light grey one

  Colorbond Dune 
We're adjacent to the airport (such as it is) so I believe it is their stipulation, not the council's in this case.  
In any case, our council employees are too busy compiling reports, executing studies, policing footpath use policies and undergoing training courses to be worried about what colour people are painting their houses. The planners never leave the office, so they create all of these wonderful policies but never see them in action and probably wouldn't know if they were being ignored.  
I asked the BI about the colour palette and he just laughed. He said if you want to paint your house bright pink, that's your problem.

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## markharrison

> Among many of my standard "work arounds", from the outset I offer a clause which reads "colours to be from a sympathetic tonal range from a Palette derived from the Taubman's Heritage Colour range 1994", and to date have not had it knocked back.

  Nice try but no cigar! Your DA will not be approved in Pittwater. Been there done that!!!!! 
I suggest you have a look at the link I provided above because this is what you will be working with in a few years from now. 
If I was intending to stay in Pittwater I would be running for council and I know I would get a good team of supporters. Unless the madness of councils dictating public taste is curtailed we will be living in houses that look very similar, are similar colours etc, etc. In short, like a Communist era eastern european housing development. 
As an aside, I have accepted a job in Brisbane and will be moving back to Queensland in the near future. If you had a choice, would you rather work with Redland Shire Council or Brisbane City Council? I'm planning to move to either Manly or Wellington Point. 
When I say back, I come from the Sunshine Coast (born in Nambour and went to school there and Maroochydore when we moved there) originally though I left there some 25 years ago. My family still live on the Sunshine Coast. I've lived in Sydney for over 20 years but I've never really liked it. The commuting and (now) the housing problem is just out of control.

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## chromis

> Here's where it gets a bit messy..... PLANNERS. 
> For 200 years we've gotten ( ) along just fine without them, no major stuffups, we've had roads, aquaducts and sanitation..... now some third year university student decides that she (It's always a "she" in planning offices) likes red, so we all have to paint our houses red.

  I'm going to do a survey or all the australian town planners to get the percentage of "shes" vs He-s... 
I'll get back to you in several years with proof that your statement is totally wrong  :Smilie:  in oh so many ways.

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## lnt9000

> I need to share my frustrations with you guys...I have mentioned previously about my neighbour...well the sh*t has hit the fan...the trouble has been slowly brewing over a few months...I started extending the shed...only 3 metres...no permit...and she knew it...well guess or called the council...they came around and want me to submit plans for the deck, the roof over the deck, the spa..and the shed extension plans...bloody pain in the a*se...well time will tell...who will win the battle...I reckon we are good neighbours...not feralls...and the amount of work I have done for her (free)....and just one of those projects was her deck and pergola...and carport...with no permit...so who is ring the council tomoorow. 
> I don't want to sound like a whinger...but ...she could only talk to me over the fence...we could have talked about it...she didn't mind sipping champagne in the spa...when she was hot....that's my story...what do you think.:mad:

  Sounds a bit like a days of our lives saga  :Smilie:  , keep us informed of your progress leeton, I think many of us have done the deed in the past but have been fortunate not to have your neighbour :Rolleyes:

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## seriph1

that's it! I just read this thread and I am off into the back yard to cut a sick tree down before anyone tells me I can't - the bloody thing has already dropped some monsters ................... where's me chainsaw!? 
Bloody councils - up here in our small rural communists - oops - community, I was amazed to find this little gem - of course, it wasnt until after the land I bought had settled, that it sank in ......  
I pay in rates, 100% MORE for the 3 acres of land ($80,000) I bought than I do for my home in the same shire - Council's comeback when asked? "Council has the right to charge what it sees fit on properties within its jurisdiction - to encourage owners to build, the rates are doubled on unimproved land". The steam rose out of my ears I can tell ya ........ and of course do you think I could get any justification for the impost? Telling them that the land uses NO shire services at all, except what their staff have to do to produce their bloody BILLS was of no avail..... No putting a Van or transportable home/shed on it - only a structure ostensibly forming a permanent, habitable dwelling is considered for rate adjustments, so no-go. 
madness 
to cap it all off, the rates on my house here are more than the rates on our old place which was worth at least twice as much, in Melbourne..... and I have been warned already that any works done to the property MUST receive prior approval from council..... when I asked what the limits of that was, I was told that if I dig a hole for a Hills Hoist, I need a permit. If I had the time I would LOVE to try that one on........ fun fun fun. 
Ok, now to "hug" that tree.

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## Termite

> that's it! I just read this thread and I am off into the back yard to cut a sick tree down before anyone tells me I can't - the bloody thing has already dropped some monsters ................... where's me chainsaw!? 
> Bloody councils - up here in our small rural communists - oops - community, I was amazed to find this little gem - of course, it wasnt until after the land I bought had settled, that it sank in ......  
> I pay in rates, 100% MORE for the 3 acres of land ($80,000) I bought than I do for my home in the same shire - Council's comeback when asked? "Council has the right to charge what it sees fit on properties within its jurisdiction - to encourage owners to build, the rates are doubled on unimproved land". The steam rose out of my ears I can tell ya ........ and of course do you think I could get any justification for the impost? Telling them that the land uses NO shire services at all, except what their staff have to do to produce their bloody BILLS was of no avail..... No putting a Van or transportable home/shed on it - only a structure ostensibly forming a permanent, habitable dwelling is considered for rate adjustments, so no-go. 
> madness 
> to cap it all off, the rates on my house here are more than the rates on our old place which was worth at least twice as much, in Melbourne..... and I have been warned already that any works done to the property MUST receive prior approval from council..... when I asked what the limits of that was, I was told that if I dig a hole for a Hills Hoist, I need a permit. If I had the time I would LOVE to try that one on........ fun fun fun. 
> Ok, now to "hug" that tree.

  Use the greatest power you have........the vote. If you feel strongly enough about it, then campaign before the elections on the basis of unfair rate charges, and you may be suprised at the support you get from other voters and some of the councilors who wish to be re-elected. 
Kick up a helluva stink at every oportunity in as public a forum as possable.
People tend to forget what a vote is for, it is for ensuring fair and equitable Government at any level.

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## Babytoolman

termite has it.
I think we have become lazy in our protestations to these overblown power hungry minions.
Write to your local papers 6 weeks out of an election and watch the scrambling these idiots go through to try and make promises change by-laws so they can stay comfortable. 
Better still run for council and make the changes from the inside. If you have like minded people in all the wards of your council stand against the others if only to make life very difficult for them. I am sure if they ask you to pull out of the race they will be promising changes to the planning and approval by-laws and ensure you hold them to it.
By the way i hate councils and i am in one council that is the 3rd highest charging in the country and all i get is my rubbish picked up and a bill every 3 months so the GM can go out and have coffee with his planning team. 
Stand a deliver to these morons when it will count. 
Roger

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## lockers

The best bet is having good neighbours, when we first moved in we had a tree that was not well and dropped crap everywhere, spoke with the neighbours about it and they said yes please we hate that tree, plus in Canberra decks that are low enough and the same with pergolas dont need the ok from the council.

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## boban

My take on council decisions is that most people dont give a stuff until it affects them.  These councillors are not there for you but themselves (of course there are exceptions).  They are trainee state politicians who will kiss anyone's backside they think will help them get to their goal. 
When you whinge to one of them, they do react even if the whinge is unreasonable.  Why, because they can then turn around and say they work for the community.  I've dealt with these trainee politicians on numerous occassions and have yet to come across one that does not sway in the wind.  And then there are the femi-nazi greenie concillors ....

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## Bodgy

> . And then there are the femi-nazi greenie concillors ....

  And then there is Kuringai Council...... 
Boban is right on the money. The problem is that very few of us have the time, nor the patience to get involved. In general the people who do get involved are of a very low calibre and do it for purely selfish reasons, first amongst which is power. We have a great example; a complete non entity becomes mayor by drawing a longer straw than the tied candidate. 
Fortunately planning has been taken away, but I fear only on the major developments. 
Most of us don't realise how woeful our councils are, as we mostly only see their good side - the sports grounds, library etc. If all the electors actually sought a DA things would change. This may happen in Kuringai as they demand permission before one can errect a single sheet of lattice, as a backdrop, or windbreak in your yard. They claim it is a permanent structure hence permission must be sought - at a price, of course. 
Nearly all of our councils dictats are changed if you go to Land and Environment, but they know that few people will, cause of the cost. Hence these petty dictators enforce their own agendas on us punters, with impunity.

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## dazzler

Hi  
i reckon the truth is in here somewhere; 
"the trouble has been slowly brewing over a few months" 
So whats the story? I have been to hundreds of domestic neighbour disputes and there is always a story. 
Who did what to who who then did what to who to what to who! 
come on  
out with it   :Wink:  
dazzler

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## boban

> And then there is Kuringai Council......

  I know about them all too well. 
Current situation.  Large home planned and approved by Land And Environment Court in Turramurra.  Council rejected it.   About $10,000 of rate payers money down the tube and a thorough hosing down of the town planners by the Commissioner. 
Next about 20 trees (mainly palms) to be removed.  The tree lopper who was also an arborist points out that the peppercorn tree (which stands about 4-5 metres high and whose branches overhang the footpath) is dead.  Owner asks to cut it down while the loppers are there.  Council arborist inspects and agrees that the tree is dead but the town planners will not let them cut it down because it is a condition of the DA that the tree remains.  Even though the arborist recommends that it be removed.  You must lodge a s.96(1) application to vary the DA.  Cost of the application is half the cost of the original DA. 
Looks like the next step is to shift liability to the Council and we will see whether they still maintain their stance. 
They dont like it when they are taken to court and lose, which is what usually happens.

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## Scally

I thought the legal fraternity had all the trainee polititions. 
My body corporate in Hornsby wouldn't even let me use power tools. 
It sure is good to be out on Sydney, living in the country with good neighbours.

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## stevek

> As an aside, I have accepted a job in Brisbane and will be moving back to Queensland in the near future. If you had a choice, would you rather work with Redland Shire Council or Brisbane City Council? I'm planning to move to either Manly or Wellington Point.

  I've lived in both and dealt with both in the realm of planning disputes (I'm a town planning lawyer) and I would have to recommend Brisbane. Less political interference, less decisions from out of left field and better dispute resolution mechanisms.

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## Wild Dingo

I wonder if the price of submitting the application hasnt somthing to do with non compliance? from what Ive heard of the eastern states the shires charge an arm a leg and two gonads just to submit the plans for approval. 
Neighbors can be the pits at times... when we moved here and I submitted the plans for my shed it cost $70 for approval and another 30 for the water athorities approval (dont ask me why they needed to approve a ruddy shed  :Rolleyes:  ) the sheds gone up and hello!! Ive a ranger here within a week asking if Id got shire approval as there had been a complaint that I was erecting a substantial shed on the property (when has a 6x9mtr shed been considered substantial?) so I showed him the paperwork and he went away happy only to return a few days later to say the same neighbor (I only have one neighbor as Im semi rural) had complained about the humpyhoochy out the back blocking her view... I explained that I had no idea what approval the previous owner had or didnt have for the humpy and that he was in a better position than I was to check that out he did and the previous owner had got the right permits... 9 years ago when he stuck it up! Which the neighbor saw him do then but said nothing at the time... anyway I was out moving the dirt for the levee bank to keep the creek at bay last weekend and guess what? yep same neighbor rang the shire demanding action be taken over the person using a tractor (front end loader actually  :Biggrin:  ) on the weekend and that the caravan at the side of the house was interupting her view... I explained the situation re the creek flood levee bank and that I didnt start the loader till after 9am and knocked of by 4pm each day I operated it no problems says he and then went to ask about the caravan blocking the neighbors veiw we walked to the caravan and I asked him what view was she talking about? he agreed that the only view she had if the caravan wasnt there is the veiw of our house! no problem 
What a bloody waste of ratepayers money the rangers time and mine let alone hers! Apparently she was very upset and complained bitterly at the shire meeting that was held the week after the flood that evacuated my family and cost us almost all our possessions last year... complained about the noise for gods sake! yet the last owner of the property ran semi trailers from here at all hours! 
Mind you it was good to see the engineer and the ranger going over her place  on Friday after my call on Tuesday about non approved rooms and verandah... seems I was right too!!  :Biggrin:  Since there was a pack of fellas in there on Saturday doin some serious banging and her swearing to all and sundry about bastard mongrel neighbors!!  :Biggrin:   Seems the house is actually a 2 bed 1 bath house and not a 4 bed 2 bath house and there is supposed to be a verandah out the front not around the whole house... oh and their shed is now on the deck since apparently there was no shire approval for it or so said the ranger over a few beers tonight at my son in laws place nice bloke actually  :Wink:  ... gawd sometimes unexpected rewards do happen!!  :Cool:   
ahem... back on track Shane ol mate back on track... I also wonder why people dont do the right thing the first time round instead of cutting corners and getting done down the track... and I do wish that shires would be consistant rather than each having different friggin rules!! go from one town to the next and the rules of play change! :mad:  
I do feel for you poor buggars over east and your exhorbitant fees for submitting plans to shires... sometimes I feel soooooo spoilt living in West Aus Best Aus  :Tongue:

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## Sturdee

> I do feel for you poor buggars over east and your exhorbitant fees for submitting plans to shires... sometimes I feel soooooo spoilt living in West Aus Best Aus

  Shane, thought you like to know that today the Victorian government announced that they are amending the regulations so that householders will no longer be required to obtain permits from councils for putting up sheds, cubby houses and pergolas.  
Finally some commonsense and just when I'm getting ready to put up another little shed.  :Biggrin:    
Peter.

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## Mulgabill

> Finally some commonsense and just when I'm getting ready to put up another little shed.  
> Peter.

  Likewise (Garden Shed x 1, Pergola x 1) :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## dazzler

Hey Shane 
Well done... bet thatll cost her a few dollars. 
I had a mate who had a similar problem with neighbours so he set up a cassette player/hi fi thing and hooked it up to a timer so that it came on at 3am for 10 seconds just to wake em up :Tongue:   
cheers 
dazzler

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## some_one

It has taken the present govt 8 years to cut the red tape in permits. Did some one say it was EVICTION year?? read ELECTION :Biggrin:

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## seriph1

can anyone provide a link to the announcement by the VIC govt. please? 
thanks

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## Sturdee

> can anyone provide a link to the announcement by the VIC govt. please? 
> thanks

  
I heard it yesterday on 3AW radio news service and again last night on channel 9 evening news service. Will probably be in todays papers.   
Peter.

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## Mulgabill

Seriph1,
Try this link to the Herald-Sun http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...5E2862,00.html

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## some_one

thanks for the link mate but is there a specific govt. dep. link we could get to find out details or may a council link telling us the jump in the rates as they no longer will be able to milk the common person for some simple permits anymore...:eek:

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## Mulgabill

The issue regarding permits for building of pergolas, sheds etc becomes murky. It appears the the news releases do not tell the full story as it only relates to Planning Permits. Building permits are still required????:eek:  
 Refer to the following link; http://www.buildingcommission.com.au...asp?casid=3016
 Then Media Release; Government changes to planning permit system do not affect building permit requirements

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## Driver

Looks like the Victorian Govt is just lifting the requirement for planning permission on sheds etc. But leaving in place the requirement for a Building Permit. 
That's the situation over here in WA. You don't need planning permission (usual caveats apply - the structure has to meet the Residential Design Codes etc) but you do need a Building Permit. This allows the council to check that the structure meets the Design Codes and it also allows them - at my local council - to charge $40 for the privilege. I'm not complaining. The process locally is relatively quick and, as Brother Midge said in an earlier post, it means that you've got all the necessary documentation in proper order if and when you sell. 
I've just spent a bit of time this afternoon checking it all out on the relevant websites and downloading bloody yards of government regs and codes. Because - wait for it! - I'm finally getting around to building a proper workshop - yeeehaaaah! This means the family can regain the patio and yours truly will have somewhere to go and play without having to listen to complaints about bits of wood and "tool thingys" clogging up the "entertaining space".

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## Auld Bassoon

Good one Col!  About ruddy time too  :Biggrin:

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