# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Solar rebate, the social experiment ends.

## Marc

Does anyone here who's Kevin contract ends in December decided which way to go from next year?
The 62c x KW will stop and the choices are "buy back" at 6c per KW (and then we "buy back" at 20c gee that is good business), or install a smart meter and print on your forehead I am an idiot.  
Are there other alternatives? 
Take the panels to the tip?

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## Bros

> I am an idiot.

  Shh don't tell anyone.

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## joynz

My contract has a few more years to go, (PFIT). 
Even when the contract runs out, I will keep the panels as you get the benefit of the electricity you use from the panels during the day. 
Alternatively, add a battery system.

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## cyclic

Not sure what your deal was down there but up here where the sun shines all the time (almost), my 5kw system which cost me $7000 has paid itself off more than 3 times (at 50 cents/kwh) since install in approx 2011, and no outlay for power since it was installed, and to the best of my knowledge it keeps paying 50 cents to 2026, and when that occurs, if the panels are still putting out power, then I will accept the 6 cents..
People are still installing systems for the 6 cents here on the Sunny Coast.
Only catch is if the home is sold, or account for power supplied changes to new occupants, then the 50 cents drops to 6 cents, and some buyers of homes have already found that out the hard way thinking they would continue to receive the full rebate when they purchased a home with solar system on top..
At the moment, rather than take the cash in credit, we simply transfer through the supplier (origin) and pay 3 other family power bills with the same supplier. 
On the other side of the coin water and sewerage is getting way more expensive because our wonderful Unity Water has found a way to charge almost twice for water.
They charge for the water used, then charge another 90% of the water again as a sewer expense.

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## joynz

My scheme goes to 2024 I believe.  The panels etc cost $2,500. 
In Vic, I thought the rebate was attached to the property and that it continued with the new owners.  Maybe I was wrong?   
I wish I had paid more attention at the time and sized my system up a bit more.  I did it for the 'feel good' factor and initial subsidy and didn't really think about the feed in tariffs - so didn't realise that I wouldn't be able to add on panels later and keep the tariff. 
I just have 1.5kw - but still only get a couple of bills a year.

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## NRB

Our 60 cent rate ends in 2024,so will keep a eye on batteries over the next couple of years,they are getting cheaper and more efficient 
We paid $10700 in 2011 for a 5 kW system,with feed in credits and savings on usage we have completely recovered all of that and am now approximately $3000 ahead (profit)
While batteries are not cheap now I feel that the profits we will get over the coming years will go a long way to pay for them.

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## woodbe

Even if the FIT stopped today, the panels are already paid for several times over now. We're still years away, but with the power prices going up they will be at equilibrium before the 44c FIT dies for us here. 
So why remove them even if you only get 6c per kWh? That is still a positive benefit, just not as good as before. 
Just push more electrical usage into sunlight hours - turn on the washer, the heating/cooling, charge your tools and your electric car etc. Put in a battery bank or store heat/cold in some way. You forgo the 6c but save the price per kWh from the grid.

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## Spottiswoode

Old house had the 60c feed in. Paid for the system in a few years. Once the tariff reverts to 6c you need to get a new meter installed so that you can use the power you generate and only sell excess power as opposed to sending it all to the grid. otherwise you are selling it at 6c and buying back at 44c or whatever the rate is at the time. 
either way is a rort. Don't know how they can justify buying for 6 and selling for 44, there should be time of use generation tariffs too. As in you get more during peak.

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## Bloss

Look at batteries - you will be surprised at the drop in costs. You will likely need a new hybrid inverter though as most PV inverters will nit allow simple addition of storage. 
But your system will have been well and truly paid off so the key courtesy of the overly generous FiT (and non-solar electricity customers!) now is to make sure you are configured for highest self-consumption as that offsets retail cost of your bill. So any HWS should be heating up during maximum daylight hours - there are smart switches that can direct your PV out put to your HWS (all behind the meter) and pool pumps or any other large demand source should be timed to run during daylight hours - but take care your tariff rates will change and simply changing the times might make your bill worse.

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## Marc

> Old house had the 60c feed in. Paid for the system in a few years. Once the tariff reverts to 6c you need to get a new meter installed so that you can use the power you generate and only sell excess power as opposed to sending it all to the grid. otherwise you are selling it at 6c and buying back at 44c or whatever the rate is at the time. 
> either way is a rort. Don't know how they can justify buying for 6 and selling for 44, there should be time of use generation tariffs too. As in you get more during peak.

  Ok, may be since most of you still have a contract going fo many years, you have not looked into it yet. In NSW ... and this is the rub, different states different agreement, I rang my power suppler and they said that "they did not know yet" how much are they going to charge me ... hang on I said, charge? rather how much are you willing to pay me right?
Oh cof cof yes, that's right, we don't know what we will pay yet (and we are in September, 3 month to go) But we will soon be installing a new smart meter for you. 
Now this seems to be the key point here. 
Why change 150,000 meters that are only a few years old and charge the consumer again for it when we paid for the one we have?
The answer is not satisfactory ... they say that it is so that you can use your own electricity during the day and sell the excess to the grid. 
Forget the 6c rort for a minute, since we have gone from robbing the taxpayer at 62c, completely unsustainable, to rip off the consumer a quarter of the retail price. Forget that, what is it with the idiots' meter? They say so you can use your own electricity ... *that is a bold faced lie.*  
The electricity produced by the panels goes to the grid with the present meter and with the idiots' meter, the new meter addresses a billing issue not a technical "use your own electricity" bullmanure. The meter simply measures production and time and does the calculation, something that can be done with the reading of the present meter.  
The issue as I see it is that this is the thin edge of the wedge to force smart meters that can charge differential rates according to the time of use and charge rip off prices during pick hour with the allure of cheap prices at 11pm. So take a shower 2 in the morning and switch your aircon full blast during the night but sweat it out during the day. Do the washing and ironing at night and you save money it says on their website. This is third world stuff.

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## phild01

Have to agree with you about smart meters, just a scam!

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## Marc

*http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/class-action-mooted-on-nsw-solar-metering-scandal-59090 
Class Action mooted on NSW solar metering “scandal”*By Nigel Morris on 19 February 2016  _Shuttershock_ The rapidly escalating outrage around the NSW solar metering scandal is growing by the day.
Consumers are potentially being forced wear the costs of upgrades (to meters that are only six years old) and as it stands, there isn’t a hope of getting them all replaced in time for the cut off.
The potential for discriminatory new metering fee’s looms over their heads, although many don’t even know it’s coming.
And to make matters worse, the changes are not even necessary.  If there was an unavoidable technical reason for a new meter, it could be a multi-channel gross meter once again, Netted off during billing.
The issue is actually about net billing, and reinforcing the power of incumbents. It is not about net metering.
Earlier this week I talked to a packed room of potential and current solar owners. Before I even had a head of steam in my presentation, one savvy solar owner asked for advice on what was going to happen with metering and tariffs. Around 30 per cent of the room has solar and the remainder want it.
“Well” I said “It’s going to go like this, based on current public information”.
“The solar meter which you paid to have installed six years ago will be removed and thrown in a pile. Then, the Government owned network company will specify a new meter in collaboration with your retailer, charge you up front for its supply and installation, possibly also replacing your consumption meter if it’s separate.” 
Either customers will be billed, or locked into lock term contractors.
I go on: “You will then be net metered and net billed. Your new meter will be programmed only to read the difference between consumption and generation in the same way it is done for non FIT customers. It is unlikely to record interval data or have smart access to the data.  Importantly, you need to understand that this means you will no longer be able to see your actual energy consumption or actual solar generation on your bill.”
Stunned silence.
“I must be misunderstanding you,” said a punter. “Are you telling me that I am being forced to discard a near new meter, replace it at a high cost and that the replacement remove the ability to understand what I have used and generated??…– how is it possible that will be forced to purchase a new meter that doesn’t provide me with metering?”
This is inevitably the reaction from every solar owner that solar providers talk to. Industry has just gotten used to it.
“Smarter customers already install sub metering” was my response. “It sounds a like a sales pitch, but we strongly encourage every customer to install additional metering to address this issue because we haven’t had a choice. 
“Crucially, if you are considering storage you really should be installing sub metering because we can then accurately see your demand profile, which is needed to size your storage. It sucks, you are paying twice but it’s the only way we can solve it right now”
A growing number of Australian solar owners already deal with this issue every single day. My newer customers are already confused as hell and I’ve presented case studies over the years like many others of what a nonsensical and disempowering approach it is.
However, the NSW situation is entirely different. It’s 2016 and technology has come ahead leaps and bounds. There is an opportunity to stop the momentum of the status quo and not penalise solar owners with a dumb, expensive solution. *The metering impetus*
The sole impetus behind replacing up to 150,000 solar meters in NSW is the change from net to gross billing.  How it’s metered is arguably a separate and distinct issue. Do you have to Net meter to Net bill?  Hell no!
The currently installed Gross metering provides high grade data on two or more channels which is fed into a billing system. The billing system ID’s you, aggregates your data, applies any applicable Retail tariffs and produces a bill.
The billing system is already doing a myriad of backend calculations and to Net bill (with Gross metering) the difference need only be subtracted. It is that simple.
If there was an unavoidable technical reason for a new meter, it could be a multi-channel gross meter once again, Netted off during billing.
That’s why this issue is actually about net billing, not net metering. *Motivation*
Why on earth would the Government owned networks and the private retailers be talking about doing this meter swap then?
Largely, I think it’s because they haven’t caught up with what’s possible and are just following the status quo without genuine thought to alternatives. Perhaps that’s too generous.
Would the networks benefit if consumers didn’t actually know how much energy they were using and generating? Arguably. I have met plenty who wish they knew how much energy they used in their business, but don’t because since installing solar they have been forced onto net metering.
Do the networks benefit by writing off current meter assets and, purchasing, on-selling and profiting on new meters? Yes. They will purchase $30M or so of meters, on sell them to us at a profit and depreciate them as assets, even though we have been charged for them. It’s the only I product I know of that you pay for in full in advance and yet don’t own.
Does this help solar consumers? No. They will be financially worse off and will not have access to data that they currently have. They will not be advised how much energy they use or when.
Does it improve the vision of household demand profiles and access to detailed data for networks and consumers? No. In many cases, it will diminish it.  *Culpability*
The NSW 60c Solar Bonus scheme was launched with an end date. During planning for the metering rollout networks had explicit, concise vision towards the end of the scheme and that Net metering was probable at the schemes end, given its popularity elsewhere.
They made a choice to deploy these meters with this knowledge and I would thus purport that they are culpable for the decision by failing to include the ability to adapt at the schemes end. Time has passed and the market has changed but this crucial point remains. *The ask and the class action*
To be clear, 150,000 solar homes are very aware of the implications of this issue. So, here’s my ask on their behalf.
Dear Premier
We call on you to immediately and rapidly resolve the impending solar metering issue that looms over the head of 150,000 NSW solar owners.
In the vast majority of cases there is no justifiable or reasonable excuse to discard and replace existing metering.  Being forced to replace a near new meter at significant cost is an outrage because this is a billing issue, not a metering issue.
I accept that I am scheduled to change from Gross to Net billing on December 31st this year.
However, I do not accept that a new meter is required to achieve this because existing metering data can be netted off at the billing stage.  A net meter is not required to Net bill.
Further, by forcibly changing my meter configuration to Net, I will lose access to valuable information about my energy consumption and my energy generation. Neither my bill nor my meter will show what my energy consumption is if it is Netted off at the meter which will prevent me from taking action to reduce my demand.
My ask, on behalf of NSW solar consumers is:  To immediately call a halt to solar meter changeovers in NSWTo mandate that Networks NSW use their billing system to Net off solar, rather than using metering to net it offTo ensure that my visibility of consumption and generation meter data is improved, rather than diminished
This approach resolves a myriad of complex issues not least of which is the needless deployment of $30M of meters. It is simple, effective and can empower energy users in NSW to continue to minimise their impact on the networks of NSW.
Sadly we advise you that should you continue down the current path, we intend to launch a class action against Networks New South Wales and its owners.
I refuse your new, dumb, expensive, metering demand. I won’t pay it and I’m pretty confident that the remainder won’t pay it either because adequate metering infrastructure is already in place. You have an opportunity for a number of imminently more intelligent solutions. I don’t believe that you have the right or the mandate to diminish my access to data.
Signed
New South Wales Solar Owner _Nigel Morris is chief executive of solar installer RoofJuice._

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## Marc

THe good news is taht in NSW "smart" meters are optional, but they are not telling what the alternative is if thee is one. Furthermore, if you want one, it will not be ready for 31 december so there will be no rebate and no buy back fo as log as they resolve what to do. 
Don't you love this state sponsored schemes? 
Now wheve did I leave that phone number for the pink bats?

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## Marc

Batteries? Really? We had batteries charged by a car generator moved by a little wind prop thingy in the sixties, and you want me to go back to that in the middle of Sydney? 
In Japan the electricity is cheaper than here and they feed their generators with our coal and our gas. Now there is progress. we are so smart aren't we? Oh yes but we are saving the planet .....  :Rofl5:

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## dmxtothemax

The numbers just don't stack up.
Cost of equipment
cost of electrician/instal 
cost of batteries
6c kwh but only when the grid needs it
you can generate all you want, but if the local grid doesn't need it you don.t get paid for it
then we buy it back at 20 to 30c kwh ???
L O N G time to recoup outlay 
the numbers never stacked up 
And still don't for the vast majority
it's a HUGE scam.
still is !

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## Smurf

My solar panels will have recovered their full cost by the time the 28.283c FIT expires here in Tas (end of 2018) and drops to 6.671 cents. 
So I haven't lost any money there, made a profit actually, but nonetheless I'm examining options that may improve the economics from 1 January 2019 onwards. 
Looked at changing to time of use metering with or without also changing the heating system (by far the largest use of energy due to location) but concluded that the options I looked at didn't stack up. 
Now looking to see if there's an economically viable way to take the energy that would otherwise be exported and store it as heat to be released during the evening and doing that with either conventional electricity metering or changing to TOU. Will post the results on this forum once I've worked it all out (might be a while since there's no hurry).

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## Marc

Another thing to consider is the fact that the retail price of electricity is inflated to cover all this scams, so what you pay even after "rebates" is a rip off anyway.
A lose lose situation only made worse by the other numerous "renewable" scams out there, starting with wind, and yes, I know that in "Saint Australia" things are oh so different, please do not remind me.

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## woodbe

I think the reason you need a new meter, Marc is that you are on the NSW 'Gross' tariff. 
With a new Nett meter like we have had since solar went in, any solar power used before the electricity makes it to the grid is at no cost to the household and is not registered on the meter. If you use it before it hits the meter, then it is free. Stay with your old meter, and you will be charged for every kWh of power you use. 
I would have thought it would be possible to fix the problem by rewiring rather than replacing the meter, but not my field.

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## dmxtothemax

> Another thing to consider is the fact that the retail price of electricity is inflated to cover all this scams, so what you pay even after "rebates" is a rip off anyway.
> A lose lose situation only made worse by the other numerous "renewable" scams out there, starting with wind, and yes, I know that in "Saint Australia" things are oh so different, please do not remind me.

  Correct !
All these subsidies and solar rebates are subsidised by electricity consumers.
Unless you can get a system cheap, get it installed cheap, and get batteries cheap then it will never be economically viable. 
The only reason it is viable for some is because of rebates and subsidies which we all pay for. And whats gunna happen to the extra charges we have been paying to pay  for these subsidies, you can bet they will stay !

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## Smurf

> A lose lose situation only made worse by the other numerous "renewable" scams out there

  There's a far bigger scam than renewables. 
Deregulation and the often associated "privatisation". 
20 years of that approach and Australia has gone from having the third cheapest electricity in the OECD to being among the most expensive on earth. That's a failure by any sensible measure. 
As for renewables, well that's about 3 - 4% of the bill for a typical household. A cost yes, but nowhere near as big as the cost of the other nonsense we've gone through.

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