# Forum Home Renovation Fences & Screens  Side gate post attached to fence?!?

## j0a

Hi everybody,
I'm not sure this is the right forum to post this, so apologies if it is not...
I would need an advice on this matter: I very recently had a swing side gate installed (tubular steel and colorbond, W 120 cm, H 180 c.). One post has been concreted 50 cm deep (concrete left one night to set) and the other attached to the house brick wall and to the concrete slab floor.  
Before the work started I specifically requested the gate to be completely independent from the border fence (which is old and needs to be replaced soon). I also repeated this while the work was going on, because I saw that the installer was attaching the post to the fence with a small bracket. He said that it was just temporary, but when the work was over (and the work paid) after a few hours I removed the screw from the fence and found out that without that the gate was completely bent towards the centre... It overlaps and cannot not even be closed without the fence support.  
When I called the installer he said to put the screw back, and this is it. Now, besides the fact that he did not comply to my request, my question for you who know about this stuff is this: is it common, and an ordinary practice, to count on a side fence support to straight a gate's post in a professionally done job? 
Many thanks to all who can help me to understand more about this.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

I guess the biggest issue is that the guy didn't do what you specified you wanted done....   
So he attached the new gate post to the old fence...?
with a bracket and "a" screw?
Sounds dodgy.
A new gate installation shouldn't be relying on an existing fence.  
Typically a gate post will be thicker than the normal fence post.
Fence posts should be at least 600mm deep.
Gate posts deeper still.   :Smilie:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

Maybe post some pics of the area and post etc when you get a chance.   :Smilie:

----------


## r3nov8or

50 cm deep doesn't sound deep enough for a long term gate post hanging a steel gate. Also, what material is the post? (if wood, what type of wood?)
You should be able to get him back to do it properly, but some 'tradies' (probably more like an 'odd jobs handyman') will not reappear. Pity that you've paid him... 
I know it's not what you asked for, and may not be possible (physically or aesthetically), but some possibilities -
- mounting the gate on the post attached to the house would be stronger
- supporting the outer post with a brace from the house would hold it up (if it can be done high enough to walk through.)
- and, of course, leave the screw there, and reattach if/when you get a new fence. Maybe the fence builder will be up for a little extra work and set the post properly.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> - mounting the gate on the post attached to the house would be stronger
> .

   :Nonono:  
I wouldn't do that.
Especially if it was put up by the same guy.
Unless it's dynabolted (which I doubt it is) it'll pull out.
Even then it'll shift over time. 
Get the guy back to do it properly

----------


## r3nov8or

> I wouldn't do that.
> Especially if it was put up by the same guy.
> Unless it's dynabolted (which I doubt it is) it'll pull out.
> Even then it'll shift over time. 
> Get the guy back to do it properly

  Yeah, it does depend how it was fixed to the house, but I've done it before successfully.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> Yeah, it does depend how it was fixed to the house, but I've done it before successfully.

  I'm sure you have mate, but I wouldn't trust anything this guy has done, based on the info provided by the OP. 
Yes, it can be done if there's no other way, but it's not ideal.
If possible, a 500mm return to a post is always better if it has to be on the house side of the gap.    :Smilie:

----------


## j0a

Thanks guys. I'm starting to understand that the job has been really dodgy. Here is a picture of the post (metal) with the bracket attached to the fence. The guy said he was going to come back and 'talk', but I think this is never going to happen... He is not a handy man but the owner of a business 'specialised' in gates and fences...
If I will be reasonably sure that the job has not been done in any 'acceptable' way (according to the most common way this kind of job can be considered 'acceptable' in the trade), and if he will not show up, I will bring the case to VCAT. It costs $174.10 for claims under $10,000. This is why I am trying to understand if the way he did the job is not acceptable according to the average trading standards.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

Well...it doesn't LOOK horrible, but the fact that he attached a metal gate to a rickety old pine fence is terrible and cheap. 
So...is it a double gate or single?
I'm still a bit confused.  
I know you said he concreted the post in, but if he tells you that the bracket has to be there to keep the gate and post up, the concreting job clearly isn't very flash.
And he knows it. 
Bet he used rapidset too    :Frown:

----------


## j0a

It's a double gate, each part is around 110 wide and 180 wide.

----------


## j0a

Sorry, 180 high...

----------


## r3nov8or

I'd say that to self-support a gate that substantial you would need a bigger post and deeper footing e.g. 800mm.  
It also looks like the fence is leaning towards the post too. If it continues it's slow trajectory, the gate will start to jam, even it seems OK for now...

----------


## j0a

Yes, rapid set, left overnight...

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> It's a double gate.

  and the other half is hanging off the house, yeh?
How is it attached to the house?  
pictures.
more pictures please 
There's a lot of weight in a gate like that.
Might not seem like it when you pick it up but gravity is a [female dog]   :Smilie:    
...and rapid set.
Mmm

----------


## j0a

Exactly. The fence is old and already leaning towards the gate, which is another reason why I asked him to make the gate completely independent from the fence...

----------


## r3nov8or

So the other side is hanging from the house side? any idea how he fixed it to the house? pictures? 
edit -  PG types faster than me  :Smilie:

----------


## Marc

If I understand correctly you have a 1.2m wide 1.8 m high colorbond gate hanging from a post that relies on a screw in an old fence paling (not railing or post) to stop it from flexing.
Boy oh boy.
Considering the remedy is: dig up the side post and all the concrete, replace with a 75x75x4mm SHS, concreted down 600 mm with proper concrete not hobby stuff, and fit the gate to it, and that is not going to happen ... you can fix this by fitting a second metal post on the other side of the fence. This does not need to be 75x75 and just another 50x50 like the one you have there will do. You can, if your neighbour objects to a metal post, fit a hardwood post to the fence.  When you change the fence, you will need a post right next to your gate again for the same reason.
Two post even if separated by a few inches add a lot of stiffness.
PS
You can also add a rail joining the two post as high up as possible and that will solve the problem too... In fact that is exactly what I would do.
Probably not worth your while in the small claims tribunal. A lot of agro and a long time and probably some cost.
Black 50x50 post drill two holes, two bolts, Bob is your father's brother.
The best revenge is living well  :Smilie:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> He is the owner of a business 'specialised' in gates and fences...  
> .

  
That's a worry

----------


## j0a

OK. I shot some other pictures and I'm going to send them in the next few minutes. Thanks.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

Sorry to be the bearers of bad news, but it's a class A bodge job.   :No:

----------


## j0a

Here are some more pictures. (The spot on the left, in the picture 'Gate', is just a weird reflection...)

----------


## j0a

Thanks a lot Mark. How should the rail be? Like a thick steel bar pushing the right post (the one at the fence) from the one attached to the house wall? Creating a tension towards the post on the fence side, so that it does not bend under the gate's weight?

----------


## j0a

> - supporting the outer post with a brace from the house would hold it up (if it can be done high enough to walk through.)

  Do you mean more or less the same suggestion Mark gave (_You can also add a rail joining the two post as high up as possible and that will solve the problem too..._) ?

----------


## PlatypusGardens

Is that the only fixing point to the wall?   :Shock:

----------


## j0a

Yes. Then the post is bracket bolted to the concrete slab floor. Why? Do you think it's not enough?

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> Yes. Then the post is bracket bolted to the concrete slab floor. Why? Do you think it's not enough?

  
No.
Not really. 
He should at least have put a bracket on each side of the post...
To stop it twisting.
A neater way would be to have a plate or brackets welded to the post.  
How many bolts at the bottom?

----------


## j0a

Two bolts at the bottom, and the plate is welded to the post.

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> Two bolts at the bottom, and the plate is welded to the post.

  oh yeah nah I was saying the top bracket shoulda/coulda been welded to the post. 
OR  
a plate welded to the back of the post, poking out either side, allowing for two dynabolts going in to the wall.   :Smilie:  
When they shove self-tappers in to a post on site like that, it will eventually rust where they've driven the screw in.

----------


## j0a

Right... It seems  I really got a very, very bad job...   :Sad1:

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> Right... It seems  I really got a very, very bad job...

  I wouldn't say "very very" but he's definitely cut corners, unfortunately. 
I really hate seeing stuff like this and feel for people who hand over their money in good faith expecting a decent job.
And it's even worse when it's done by a big and/or established company. 
I hope you can get it sorted out, one way or another.   :Smilie:

----------


## j0a

Thanks. I will wait and see if the guy shows up. If not I will probably follow Marc's suggestion, if I got right what he meant with the above rail...

----------


## Bros

I'm sorry to pour cold water on the thread but from what I can see the job looks OK. Now from photos I can't and probably never will see the leaning fence so is the post holding the fence or the fence holding the post take the screw out and see if the gate drops I don't think it will. As for the other side I have similar to that on one of my gates except I have a flange on the bottom with 4 SS dyanbolts and a bracket welded on the top of 50 x 50 RHS with one Dynabolt on the brickwork and it has been there 18 years with no movement. All of mine is hot dipped after fabrication by me. 
To take this to any tribunal you would be wasting your time as to me it looks OK and you will only be relying on photos to prove your case and maybe evidence from another fence erector and all that costs money. 
I'm sorry but that is the way I see it.

----------


## j0a

Many thanks. It is always useful to hear discordant voices, and I really appreciate it. Just to clarify: the gate does unfortunately drop badly if the  bracket is unscrewed form the fence. So much that one of the part overlaps the other and it is not even possible to close the gate.

----------


## Bros

> Many thanks. It is always useful to hear discordant voices, and I really appreciate it. Just to clarify: the gate does unfortunately drop badly if the  bracket is unscrewed form the fence. So much that one of the part overlaps the other and it is not even possible to close the gate.

  Well you have a claim there as with your instructions and the design the gate should not move and the post should support the gate without any significant dropping.

----------


## j0a

Yes, this can be a significant proof that the job has not been done properly.

----------


## phild01

If anything the post should be strong enough to hold up the fence, not the other way around.  I would have used a gal 65mm SHS in the ground.

----------


## Marc

Looking at the photos now, I can see the whole picture ... (well what else right?) 
The gate is not a bad gate. The post are bigger than what I thought. Probably 60x60? 
I would concentrate on the offending post on the fence side for now.
There are two possibilities for the post to give under the weight of the gate. One, the post walls are too thin, two, the concrete caved due to poor mix or loaded too early. 
Take the confounded screw off, go down at floor level with your reading glasses on if you need them and get someone to rock the gate gently up and down as you look the post and the concrete. Check for any movement whatsoever of the concrete block or the post inside the concrete. Consider that a few mm at ground level means a lot more at 1.8m high.
If no movement then you got a flimsy post.
I have fitted my fair share of standard colorbon driveway gates on standard fence post. The reality is that they can not support a gate, any gate without bracing. A standard fence post is way too thin for that, and gates can be erected along a fence only because the rest of the fence acts as a brace for the post. 
If you fit a gate at 90 degree to a fence you need to be creative and brace your free standing post somehow.  
Flimsy post can be braced rather easy, either with second post on the other side of the fence ... requires some digging on neighbours side and concreting and drilling and bolting.
Short of a diagonal at 60 degree inside the neighbours yard or the otherway inside your opening ... you can brace the offending post with a horizontal square tube of your choice
From those photos it seems you have just enough post over the gate to bolt on a horizontal rail. You will have to choose the size that appeals the most, or horrifies you the least. 
I would use the same size used for the vertical post but it is not necessary and it can be smaller. You can bolt it on the side of each post, perhaps from the inside, it doesn't really matter. Get cups for each end and it will look decent and very strong. 
Now to the post that is sticking on your brick wall.
As others have noted it is fitted a bit lightly yet you can reinforce it by adding another bracket at the top, or if you don't want it to be seen, a second bracket under the first one on the next brick down...and a third one half way if that makes you happier ...  :Smilie: 
PS
If you are on the toll side, that way of bracing the gate may not be appropriate or you will walk under it like Dr Martin when he walks in his surgery.
In that case think of the second post on the neighbour's side or take up a replacement of the whole post for one that is fit for purpose.
Like Phil says, Square Hollow Section Duragal 65x65x4mm will do the job nicely.
If you fill it with concrete and stuff the concrete in the tube with a reo bar, it will not flex at all but will give you a bit of grief to fit the hinges.

----------


## Bros

> One, the post walls are too thin,

  That would be my guess.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Do you mean more or less the same suggestion Mark gave (_You can also add a rail joining the two post as high up as possible and that will solve the problem too..._) ?

  Yes, same thing.  
A horizontal bar would look and perform best. But may not be high enough for tall people. If the gate isn't used often, maybe that's OK . It just needs to be the same measurement as the bottom so everything is square.

----------


## r3nov8or

Looks like standard colorbond fence posts which are either 60x60x1.6 or 65x65x2.5

----------


## wpeter5401

wow! very disappointing for you to have a gate post flex so much. As others have said, a double post might work. The horizontal rail above the gates to stop them caving in is probably best. To get the extra height, go up to just below the eaves if you need to. Knock the cap out of the top of the current posts, and add on a section of the same size post as high as you want to go. Slip the butt join with some smaller tube or some flat pieces either side. You might be stuck with a few extra teck screws showing.
Definitely add more anchors on the post back to the house as this will also twist and would flex if that one screw works loose. The horizontal needs to be fixed to the house but will act by keeping the tops of the posts spread apart by the right distance. 
Hopefully the installer will come to the party with one of the options suggested. If you don't keep on him now, it will be harder to get him back in a few months time when the side fence starts to lean in more and the single screw in the house works loose.

----------


## j0a

I now have a much clearer picture of how the work has been done and what to consider. I can see I have different options. I think I will start checking the reasons of the issue, as Marc has suggested. Then I will try to get the installer back into play, if there is anything I consider that he can help with. Apart form the frustration, the main concern is that the issue is going to be worse, either for further leaning of the fence, or twisting of the other post. Will see if the problem is the concrete or what else. But certainly something has to be done soon.
Many thanks for all the information. I will let you all know how it goes in the next few days.

----------


## Marc

If you are able to get the gate dude back, tell him after he finishes to have the decency to clean up.

----------


## DEMAK Timber

Does the gate clear the meter box when it opens?

----------


## j0a

Well, that has been taken into account, and even if not completely,  there is more than enough space to pass through, although in case of  machinery or something very wide there might be the occasional need of  taking away the left door...

----------


## j0a

Here is an update on the dodgy installation of my side gate. The installer came yesterday and, after going around the bush for quite a bit, the situation is as it was before. He said that all the gates in that position are attached to the fence, and even added that he would refund the money if I show him gates around here in the same position that are not attached to the fence. I am not going to chase after gates, and so...
The solutions are two of those mentioned in the posts. Either a horizontal beam or another post beside the first. I think I will go for the second, even if the first would be the most effective, because I may occasionally need to go through the gate with a micro-excavator, and the height might not be enough, apart that it would not be good looking. Plus, the fence should be replaced soon and so I will have the space needed, even if I will have to ask the neighbor to have the post 7cm in his property (just the post, not the fence).
I reckon I should go deeper than they did with the first post (which was in-grounded at 50cm). What would you guys recommend, in terms of depth, post size and anything else?

----------


## r3nov8or

I would go looking for a gate post not attached to a fence, just to make him squirm a little more...

----------


## j0a

That would be the right thing to do, I know. But I am convinced he would come up with all sorts of other arguments and excuses, and it would become an infinite story. He lost another job, and much bigger than that: a front gate for my driveway and pedestrian gate.

----------


## r3nov8or

> ...He lost another job, and much bigger than that: a front gate for my driveway and pedestrian gate.

  ... and your recommendations to friends etc. Some people just don't look beyond 'today'

----------


## PlatypusGardens

> He said that all the gates in that position are attached to the fence, and even added that he would refund the money if I show him gates around here in the same position that are not attached to the fence.

  OMG what a tosser!

----------

