# Forum Contacts & Links Estimating & Quoting  Cash job rates

## Masseypg

Hi, 
I am wondering if anyone can give me a an idea of what would be reasonable cash job rates for a drafter to draw up some extension plans? I am in Brisbane.

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## sol381

are you a drafty or are you looking for one.. Ive never come across one who does cash..plans usually go through council so i assume he or she might be wary of doing cashies..you might only just save the gst anyway..anyway prices can vary significantly between draftsman and architects so getting a rate might be tough.. also depends on whats involved..

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## ringtail

Probably the same as through the books. Not many take the cashy risk anymore and both parties are equally guilt of tax evasion if caught.

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## JB1

> Probably the same as through the books. Not many take the cashy risk anymore and both parties are equally guilt of tax evasion if caught.

  Sort of. 
The customer isn't guilty of tax evasion, it's up to the person receiving the payment to declare it. 
Cash is a legitimate form of payment. 
Also person receiving the payment doesn't have to or can't charge GST if they aren't registered for GST (turnover of <$75k p.a.) 
My gripe of paying cash to tradies is that they don't give a proper invoice and they only offer to drop the GST, so in effect they are earning much more.   
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

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## Optimus

> Sort of. 
> The customer isn't guilty of tax evasion, it's up to the person receiving the payment to declare it. 
> Cash is a legitimate form of payment. 
> Also person receiving the payment doesn't have to or can't charge GST if they aren't registered for GST (turnover of <$75k p.a.) 
> My gripe of paying cash to tradies is that they don't give a proper invoice and they only offer to drop the GST, so in effect they are earning much more.   
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

  If you're paying less than the original price, what's the problem exactly?

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## Marc

What about this common situation.
You call the trade to do a job. You ask how much is it going to be and he says ... say $500, and you accept.
Finished the job you reach for you cheque book and the guy says do you have cash? To what I reply sure. Here it is, can you give me my invoice? Aaah you want an _invoice ?_ I will have to charge you GST then ....  :Annoyed:  
Paying cash is not illegal nor tax evasion. Cash is freedom. Tax has no relation to the way you pay. You can pay cash and if the tradesman does not give you an invoice all you do is write down the date, the name, the job done and the amount paid and file it with the rest of the invoice.  
What the tradesman does with your pay is his problem. He can take my cheque and put it in a phoney bank account and pay no tax on that transaction. He can charge me GST and not pass it to the ATO. He can have several ABN numbers and pay the lowest marginal tax on each one, now that is tax evasion. Paying cash or receiving cash is not. 
Eventually the last bastion of freedom that is cash will be abolished with phoney excuses of tax evasion aided by general ignorance

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## ringtail

> Sort of. 
> The customer isn't guilty of tax evasion, it's up to the person receiving the payment to declare it. 
> Cash is a legitimate form of payment. 
> Also person receiving the payment doesn't have to or can't charge GST if they aren't registered for GST (turnover of <$75k p.a.) 
> My gripe of paying cash to tradies is that they don't give a proper invoice and they only offer to drop the GST, so in effect they are earning much more.   
> Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

  If there is intent to evade tax then both parties are guilty. Why even ask for a dicount for cash ? As soon as one says " how much for cash" there is an instant intent that the person accepting the monies will not declare it as income and that intent is incentivised by the person offering to pay cash.  Therefore, both parties are guilty. Of course, if the monies are declared then there is no problem but why discount at all ? Why offer cash ? why not negotiate a better price ? Why not give the same discount for a bank transfer or cheque ? Unless, of course, the person offering to pay cash has attained that cash through a similar  dodgy deal and is trying to keep certain transactions out of the public eye.

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## ringtail

> What about this common situation.
> You call the trade to do a job. You ask how much is it going to be and he says ... say $500, and you accept.
> Finished the job you reach for you cheque book and the guy says do you have cash? To what I reply sure. Here it is, can you give me my invoice? Aaah you want an _invoice ?_ I will have to charge you GST then ....  
> Paying cash is not illegal nor tax evasion. Cash is freedom. Tax has no relation to the way you pay. You can pay cash and if the tradesman does not give you an invoice all you do is write down the date, the name, the job done and the amount paid and file it with the rest of the invoice.  
> What the tradesman does with your pay is his problem. He can take my cheque and put it in a phoney bank account and pay no tax on that transaction. He can charge me GST and not pass it to the ATO. He can have several ABN numbers and pay the lowest marginal tax on each one, now that is tax evasion. Paying cash or receiving cash is not. 
> Eventually the last bastion of freedom that is cash will be abolished with phoney excuses of tax evasion aided by general ignorance

  Agree with that. If you don't ask for a discount for cash then you as the customer are innocent. I'm pretty sure that one has to provide an invoice/receipt for all works regardless of price or industry. Whether the customer wants one or not is up to them but the service provider must provide one.

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## Marc

Mm ... intent? How do you prove intent? I keep a wad of cash in a shoe in the cupboard and want to use it up to avoid going to the bank 100 k away so i offer cash to everyone. Intent? no such thing. Tax evasion is when you don't pay the tax you are supposed to. Methods of payment are all legitimate even bartering. As long as you keep it in the books.  
I have a giggle about people's perception about "cash". A few times when I had a property for sale I had some people from Bankstown approach me and say I give you XYZ _IN CASH !!_  Wow! I am supposed to be impressed at this point and throw myself at their feet for allowing me access to such rare commodity.  
So third world. Cash is just money. You go to the bank and you walk out with a bag full of money. So? Is that illegal? No only foolish, not illegal.

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## Marc

> Agree with that. If you don't ask for a discount for cash then you as the customer are innocent. I'm pretty sure that one has to provide an invoice/receipt for all works regardless of price or industry. Whether the customer wants one or not is up to them but the service provider must provide one.

   Sure but even that does not work every time. I paid cash many times only because it is convenient yet missed out on an invoice, even refused a cash receipt. Very dodgy, but I don't mind. I just make my own receipt with all the details and put in on tax with as much information as possible. If it is ever questioned I just state I was refused a receipt by a disgruntled worker. No worries.

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## Marc

Try the converse. And by the way this are all real experiences not made up ... well the cash in the shoe is an illustration only, I actually keep it in the fridge  :Smilie: 
Carpenter comes and says the job costs $1500. I know it is overpriced, but I don't have the time to do it myself, I have a hard time to get anyone to quote let alone to do the job so I say ... can you do it for !200? The answer is "only if you pay cash" 
i was ready to pay cash at $1500 so what's the problem? Of course I say yes, and I put the payment in my books. I paid for a legitimate job with a legitimate method of payment with after tax money. I may or may not receive a proper invoice. Not my problem.

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## ringtail

> Mm ... intent? How do you prove intent? I keep a wad of cash in a shoe in the cupboard and want to use it up to avoid going to the bank 100 k away so i offer cash to everyone. Intent? no such thing. Tax evasion is when you don't pay the tax you are supposed to. Methods of payment are all legitimate even bartering. As long as you keep it in the books. .

  
Ahhh, but there is the difference. You keep a wad of cash in your shoe. Fair enough. You pay cash for everything, fair enough. You asking someone to reduce their price in exchange for cash payment = intent = guilty. Why would anyone reduce their price for cash ? The overheads etc.... are the same so the only way a service provider can make a quid out of a reduced overall amount is to not pay the tax due on that income. Ring the ATO and ask them if it's ok to offer to pay cash in return for a reduced price.

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## ringtail

> Try the converse. And by the way this are all real experiences not made up ... well the cash in the shoe is an illustration only, I actually keep it in the fridge 
> Carpenter comes and says the job costs $1500. I know it is overpriced, but I don't have the time to do it myself, I have a hard time to get anyone to quote let alone to do the job so I say ... can you do it for !200? The answer is "only if you pay cash" 
> i was ready to pay cash at $1500 so what's the problem? Of course I say yes, and I put the payment in my books. I paid for a legitimate job with a legitimate method of payment with after tax money. I may or may not receive a proper invoice. Not my problem.

  Again, there is the difference. You have not offered to pay cash. You have tried to negotiate the price down from $1500 to $1200, nothing more. If you said " I'll pay you $1200 cash" then you are as guilty as the tradie accepting the deal. Again, ring the ATO and ask them.

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## Marc

I think you misunderstand. I know what you mean but hear me out. I _never_ ask for a price reduction based on avoiding GST. I may or may not, bargain on the price and only if I know that the price is high. In fact I hate bargaining on labour price and prefer to let the person go, only do so if in a pinch. But anyhow I bargain the price down. The other person can always say I can't do it cheaper. Fair enough, then it is my call. 
 I had a gutter man do a job for me and it was high. I told him I thought it was a tad high and he reduced the price. He gave me a proper invoice with the price reduction and I paid him in cash. 
A concreter once asked me for the magic word cash to pay his labourers at the end of the day. I did not take it to be a tax avoidance exercise. I got my invoice yet he skimped on his obligations with the workers. I am only responsible to keep my expenses in the book. Nothing else. 
The ATO can say whatever they want. Cash is money is legal tender. They may dream at night for cash to be abolished or made illegal, but so far their dream has not come true. I can tell someone I pay you with cheque, cash, in kind, swap for my car or work for you for a week as payment. The ATO has no jurisdiction only over what I declare if it does not reflect what happened.

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## Bros

5 yrs ago I sold a vehicle for $12,000 and the bloke bought cash 50's and 100's didn't that take some counting. When I sold my previous caravan the bloke went to the bank did a transfer over the counter and bought the receipt back but I was watching the account and it was in there before he came back.
I never use cash to pay tradie or supplier bills just use bank transfer as I hate keeping paper records. The tradie sends me a invoice by email and I cut and paste his bank details and pay him.

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## johnc

> Sure but even that does not work every time. I paid cash many times only because it is convenient yet missed out on an invoice, even refused a cash receipt. Very dodgy, but I don't mind. I just make my own receipt with all the details and put in on tax with as much information as possible. If it is ever questioned I just state I was refused a receipt by a disgruntled worker. No worries.

  Actually you should have a receipt for any claim over $82.50, There are some more generous rules for second hand goods bought at garage sales however just noting who you have got something from will not wash, what you are saying here is that you are prepared to lie to push your own cause, that is dodgy as well. Generally no invoice, no claim, if you have subsequently been refused an invoice then it will fall on the ATO if there was an audit to use their discretion, not something you would really want to rely on, the more missing invoices you have the less believable the taxpayer.

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## plum

It is actually preferable to be paid cash as the money is in your hand, transaction complete. Leaving invoices and sending invoices, is the norm, but my line of work I get paid either 6 or 8 weeks later. Some customers are pr1cks and I spend my time chasing them and listening to their excuses.
So offering a discount to get paid on time with either cash or transfer is fine, no-one's dodging tax.

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## ringtail

Yep but that's your call. If you offer a (say) 10% discount for invoices paid by such and such a date then that's cool and nothing more than an incentive for you clients to pay up quicker. Nearly every utility provider does it. 6-8 weeks is bollocks payment terms. Change them to 7 or 14 days and make them sign an acceptance offer of service with the payment terms in big bold letters. Also charge 10% per day overdue, again, in big bold letters.

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## Marc

Sure, all valid observations. 
Well, besides John's one, not sure where you see that I "lie to push my own case" but anyway, you are usually a tad antagonistic towards me so that is expected.  :Smilie:

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## pharmaboy2

Interesting, no ones calling the trade avoiding tax as a thief, or a scumbag, whatever, yet if it were a corporation not paying tax on a paper profit or legal offshore entities, the world is full of abuse and blame. 
just an observation.

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## autogenous

Yep, ATO and other government authorities go through housing applications to prosecute. 
Cash is worthless.  People dont pay tax until $18000 earnings, then when they have expenses they dont pay tax into a higher bracket.  Then they cant claim materials etc for the job.  Then their bank wont give them a loan. 
Yep, cash is worthless for many tradies.  Not to mention the new database system the ATO uses to prosecute people.  Its not the 90s.  The ATO is ringing accountants about their clients actions before the accountant knows about it.  Loads of people being charged with tax evasion. 
Cash is s@%^!   

> are you a drafty or are you looking for one.. Ive never come across one who does cash..plans usually go through council so i assume he or she might be wary of doing cashies..you might only just save the gst anyway..anyway prices can vary significantly between draftsman and architects so getting a rate might be tough.. also depends on whats involved..

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## Marc

Cash is worthless? .... THe ATO goes through housing applications to prosecute?  what is a housing application?  ... I don't know autogenous, but I have a hard time understanding what you mean sometimes.

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## Bros

Talk about the ATO I just went on line recently to claim a few imputation credits and did it through the Mygov web site and they had all my bank accounts, shares and super accounts. In addition they have listed all my doctors bill and how mush Medicare paid so they know a lot about you.

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## Marc

Of course they do, you allowed the banks to give your details to the ATO when you gave the bank your tax file number and as far as medicare, they pay your doctors visits and some of your medical bills so of course they know all of that. That has little to do with the cash payment fallacy that cash payment are somehow 'wrong'

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## ringtail

Oh man, no one is saying cash payments are wrong. Just incentivising someone to drop their price by offering cash for a discounted price with no invoice is illegal, for both parties. Remember, it takes two to tango. Personally, I avoid anyone that pulls the "how much for cash" thing purely because they are mostly tight rrrses and a PITA to work for. If they choose to pay by cash that's fine. But there is no discounting.

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## jimfish

Built a couple of frames for a fella quite a few years ago, once the job was completed he decided he wanted to re negotiate the quoted price. Asked for discount if he paid cash to which we gave a 15% discount. His idea was to give us 1k of the 6 owed in cash and receive 15% discount on whole job which we declined and asked for the full invoiced amount. It got a little tense but after some persuasion he paid the full invoice amount. I don't do cashies as its just not worth the hassle.

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## Bros

> Of course they do, you allowed the banks to give your details to the ATO when you gave the bank your tax file number '

   Rubbish I never gave them my tax file number they have a lot of ways to link you, address, name, passport, service account which gives name and address without which you cannot open a bank account. I believe but have no evidence the ATO has computer access to all banks and software can be automatically run to look for a persons details. 
Then there is the customer who dobs them infor tax evasion.
So if you want to illegally avoid tax they can trace you.

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## Whitey66

Cash is king, no waiting for money from customers accounts to pay suppliers, no bouncy cheques, no bankcard transaction fees. I can see exactly why people want cash as payment instead of accounts and cheques, and for direct deposit the money should be in the account the moment the job is finished.  Tradies are not banks and should not be treated as such.
And like many have said, just because it's cash it doesn't mean that the tradie is dodging tax. If they refuse an invoice or receipt, that is another issue altogether. If you don't get an invoice how do you make a claim from the tradie in the future if their work is incorrectly or unsafely done?

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## plum

> Oh man, no one is saying cash payments are wrong. Just incentivising someone to drop their price by offering cash for a discounted price with no invoice is illegal, for both parties. Remember, it takes two to tango. Personally, I avoid anyone that pulls the "how much for cash" thing purely because they are mostly tight rrrses and a PITA to work for. If they choose to pay by cash that's fine. But there is no discounting.

  Your the one that has brought up not issuing an invoice for a reduced price.

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## ringtail

And

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## plum

Just saying, because one accepts or asks for cash doesn't mean you or the payee are avoiding tax, that was your original thoughts.

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## ringtail

Not my original thoughts at all. One can pay or get paid however one likes. If one asks for cash (for whatever reason) and won't issue an invoice then one is dodgy. If one offers to pay cash in exchange for a discount and doesn't want an invoice as a way of "rewarding" the payee then, if the payee accepts these terms then both payee and payer are dodgy. Obviously the payee still has the option to put that money through the books regardless of whether the customer wants an invoice or not but in reality that doesn't happen. 
It's quite simple. 
You quote a job for $1000. Your customer says "I'll pay you $600 cash" . You say "ok, but no invoice" . 
Obviously you have just lost $400 so the only way you can make the job worthwhile is to not declare that money as income, therefore, no invoice. It's just implied that no invoice will be issued. Therefore, both parties are equally guilty of evading tax. It's the law, not made up or "my thoughts".   
Of course, if you accept the $600 cash offer and still issue a tax invoice then there is no problem at all other than you have just lost $400 and your customer has screwed you.

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## Marc

Bros, you probably don't remember but when you open a bank account you have to give your tax file number. That has been so for a long time now. If you operate with the same bank they keep it. In July the bank automatically tells the ATO how much interest they paid you. Does not matter if it is $2.15 they do so every year. Go to the ATO portal and check it out. It's there for you or your accountant to see. There are a lot of other mechanism to check what people do, of course, that is the ATO job. 
However the suggestion that intention can somehow be punished is a bit out there. I can picture the taxpayer in court. ..ATO dude ... your honour, mr Smith intended to get a price reduction by offering paying in cash and avoid the GST... Magistrate, did he avoid paying GST? ... ATO, no your honour but he certainly tried ... Case dismissed ... come back next year... NEXT!

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## pharmaboy2

The bank can only report interest paid and cash movements greater than $10k.     
They cannot not open the books of the account to the ATO, unless the ATO has a subpoena, in which case you will know all about it by then.....

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## Marc

I did not say cash movements but yes interest paid even 50c get reported automatically. 
If you supplied your tax file number which most did long time ago the bank does not take any tax out of the interest. If you did not report your TFN ( which you can legally refuse to) then the bank takes the highest marginal tax out of it and reports it to the ATO with your name and address to identify you in a different way and to allocate the tax you paid to yourself.

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## ringtail

> However the suggestion that intention can somehow be punished is a bit out there. I can picture the taxpayer in court. ..ATO dude ... your honour, mr Smith intended to get a price reduction by offering paying in cash and avoid the GST... Magistrate, did he avoid paying GST? ... ATO, no your honour but he certainly tried ... Case dismissed ... come back next year... NEXT!

  Mr Crown - Your Honour,  Mr Smith offered to pay this service provider cash in exchange for a hefty reduction in price, not only to avoid paying GST but to better his own position. In doing so Your Honour, Mr Smith and the service provider have coerced to avoid paying and collecting GST respectively by way of a deal struck between the two where by the service provider did not produce a legitimate tax invoice for the services provided to Mr Smith, in exchange for a reduction in price and cash payment. One can only conclude, Your Honour, that not only was it the intent of both Mr Smith and the service provider to avoid paying and collecting GST on behalf of the Government but for the service provider to not declare the monies as income. Your Honour, the prosecution requests a full audit be conducted into both the service provider and Mr Smith with particular attention given to the assets of both and how they were accumulated and paid for. We also request that the materials suppliers of the service provider as found in his cashbooks, be asked to provide full accounts which can then be cross referenced against his invoices. 
Magistrate - Yes Mr Crown, the court agrees there was clear intent from both the service provider and Mr Smith to evade both income tax and GST collection. Mr Smith, Mr Service provider, please bend over and think warm thoughts.   :Tongue:

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## Marc

Nicely staged but unsubstantiated. How is the "intention" determined? Sure the menace of an audit is not fun and can be done at the ATO's whim, but still there is legally no way to prove intention in this case unless one or both agree to not pay tax and follow up not paying it.
 What people say or omit is irrelevant until the day the tax assessment is lodged. 
And even then it can be amended subsequently if you left something out.  
The payment in cash is in itself not an admission of intending to defraud the tax system if such transaction is dutifully recorded as an expenditure or in your case as income.
The converse, that is invoicing including GST and not paying it in your BAS is a real offence though since you are collecting tax on behalf of the ATO and keeping it. That can turn nasty. 
PS
I like your wording when you say "not only not to pay tax but to better his own position" hu hu, so the taxman is going to punish market power, business acumen, and (god forbid) making a profit  :Rofl5:

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## ringtail

The intent is proven as soon as a deal is struck to accept cash for no invoice.  
Anyway, enough @@@@@. Tell me, as the cash converters king, do you haggle with them ? Are they receptive to a haggling ? The prices they have on tools is ridiculous. My local has a late model paslode gas gun but they want $479 for it. I would think 300 tops would be more realistic.

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## David.Elliott

Used to get this offer in the Print Shop...How much for XXX if I pay cash?  So I'd add 10%, give them that price, process the invoice as per usual, pay the gst. Him the fool for not getting to claim it...too much at stake to do stupid things.  
Many many years ago when I was at a large chain of print shops, and sales tax was still in place one of the stores had a visit from a man buying $5.00 in photocopies. Paid and walked out. Then came back in a few minutes and asked for the receipt. It was the TAX MAN!
The manager had not written one, was on the phone too or something.  That then ballooned into a $20,000 penalty. The tax man made a supposition about how many receipts had not been written and their value. The company had to prove he was wrong. Patently not possible at the time...

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## Marc

> ......... Tell me, as the cash converters king, do you haggle with them ? Are they receptive to a haggling ? The prices they have on tools is ridiculous. My local has a late model paslode gas gun but they want $479 for it. I would think 300 tops would be more realistic.

  Absolutely. Everything in CC is way overpriced. You need to know the new price and pay not more than half. I have seen banged up stuff priced 'as new'. 
Having said that I find some extraordinary prices at CC and have bought truckloads of tools, machines, instruments for a pittance. Mostly it is the case of the buyer making a mistake. Because of how much stuff I bought (over the years that is I am not there every day) they do accept my ridiculous offers most of the time.  Other times they don't. To me it's just a hobby. Had a few mishaps too. But not enough to drive me away. Most of my "best" powertools are from CC, feins, festool, Milwaukee, hitachi, Metabo, Honda, etc etc.
That Metabo Thicknesser I bought was marked $540, then they reduced it to $480 and I happen to see it just after the price reduction.
I told the lady "Can you do it for $380 ( I believe it was 380 or close to that) 
and she said ... "For you I wont even try to argue over it, you can have it ... " Ha ha I thought it was funny. 
It is worth your while to visit from time to time but it also depends from the shop. Bigger shops that sell a lot tend to have a large stock and get stock from other shops sent to them. The smaller shops are not worth your time and neither are the no name local pawn shops in my experience. 
PS
I had a chat to one of the big managers visiting the local shop once and he told me that the their motto is "everything sells" and that he once sold a used Macdonald coke cup to make that point.

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## ringtail

It's a pretty small shop really. Right next door to repco which is where I was going. They have a couple of  hilti sds drills too. Beaten up a bit with $300 on them. Paslode gun is a li ion model so not old. Looks good but with a come in spinner price tag.

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## sol381

so anyway.. anyone got an answer to masseypg`s original question..

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## Whitey66

> so anyway.. anyone got an answer to masseypg`s original question..

  Haha, off topic much?
There's just way to many variables to answer his question accurately.
OP getting quotes would be the ideal way to go I would think.

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## sol381

indeed.. we certainly dont need much incentive to rabble on off topic tho.. some interesting posts tho..

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## ringtail

I think the op should clarify *exactly* what he means by *cash rates*. What does this mean and what is he asking the drafty to do in exchange for these cash rates.  :Tongue:

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## sol381

yeah well i asked the question at the start.. he seems to have gone quiet.. ok then .. more of the ranting then..

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## ringtail

Must be your turn. I can't remember you having a rant yet.  :Biggrin:

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## Optimus

Ringtail, are/were you a tradesman?

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## ringtail

Yes, triple tradesman actually. Why do you ask ?

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## Optimus

You've never done a "cashy" and not declared it?

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## ringtail

I mowed my neighbours lawn for a six pack last week. Does that count as a cashy ?

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## plum

> You've never done a "cashy" and not declared it?

  Not sure if you're aware Optimus, but a regular contributor here is an A.T.O. employee, so some people are a bit reluctant to what they say.   :Smilie:

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## sol381

> I mowed my neighbours lawn for a six pack last week. Does that count as a cashy ?

  Mate i hope you sent 2 stubbies to the tax office for your payg payments.. or at least the empty bottles..

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## Pulse

not sure if it's a true story but... 
a plumber quotes on a job in a leafy street in Mosman, quotes $1000 but $800 for cash, lady of the house allegedly replies, "you'd better make it full price, my husband's the tax commissioner!"  
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## sol381

$1,000 job for a plumber.. what was he doing  changing a tap washer..

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## ringtail

Bwahahahahahaaha. Now you've done it  :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

> Mate i hope you sent 2 stubbies to the tax office for your payg payments.. or at least the empty bottles..

   2 !! I'm not in that tax bracket  :Tongue:

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## sol381

hey i was only referring to plumbers in Mossman..  :Rolleyes:

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## sol381

> 2 !! I'm not in that tax bracket

  
Haha very good.. i was going to make another crack about plumbers but i wont..

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## ringtail

> Not sure if you're aware Optimus, but a regular contributor here is an A.T.O. employee, so some people are a bit reluctant to what they say.

  Really ? Who's that ?

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## ringtail

> Haha very good.. i was going to make another crack about plumbers but i wont..

  No, best to limit it to one a day. Keeping the peace and all.  :Biggrin:  However, it is Friday so....  :Tongue:

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## Whitey66

> Haha very good.. i was going to make another crack about plumbers but i wont..

  Good idea, we've probably all seen enough "Plumbers Cracks" already.

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## Optimus

> Not sure if you're aware Optimus, but a regular contributor here is an A.T.O. employee, so some people are a bit reluctant to what they say.

  I wasn't.  
Some people are not only reluctant to what they say but full of $h!t too

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## sol381

> Good idea, we've probably all seen enough "Plumbers Cracks" already.

  
Only realised i wrote that after i posted..but youre right.. seen too many plumbers cracks..

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## plum

> Really ? Who's that ?

  As if you didn't know...            And to anyone else it's up to that person if they want to divulge, 'cos I'm not going to.

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## Marc

> Really ? Who's that ?

  Ha ha, surely the hint is that it is me. Nee, made it perfectly clear that, I can not say where I work but that it is not the ATO. 
Reluctantly ... ha ha or reticently ...  mm I like phlegmatically  :Rofl5:

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## ringtail

No, seriously, I don't know who it is. I guess I should by now eh.

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## ringtail

> Ha ha, surely the hint is that it is me. Nee, made it perfectly clear that, I can not say where I work but that it is not the ATO. 
> Reluctantly ... ha ha

  oh, it's you. Ahhh, that's ok then. You're bent as  :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

> I wasn't.  
> Some people are not only reluctant to what they say but full of $h!t too

  Yep so some people are full of $h!t because they won't incriminate themselves for your enjoyment. Away you go then Optimus, tell the world of your cashies.

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## autogenous

A housing BUILDING application to build.  The ATO check all the transactions. Cash is useless because you claim materials.  You should know that. 
You find it hard understanding most the forum Marc.  Maybe its you    

> Cash is worthless? .... THe ATO goes through housing applications to prosecute?  what is a housing application?  ... I don't know autogenous, but I have a hard time understanding what you mean sometimes.

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## autogenous

Any tradie attempting tax evasion in this day age is a mug but mostly it is clients wanting GST off for cash, which is the stupidist thing ever. 
Today is very different to 5 years ago.   

> not sure if it's a true story but... 
> a plumber quotes on a job in a leafy street in Mosman, quotes $1000 but $800 for cash, lady of the house allegedly replies, "you'd better make it full price, my husband's the tax commissioner!"  
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Optimus

> Any tradie attempting tax evasion in this day age is a mug but mostly it is clients wanting GST off for cash, which is the stupidist thing ever. 
> Today is very different to 5 years ago.

  Why is it "the stupidist thing ever" to get a cheaper price for a job being done on your house?

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## plum

> Ha ha, surely the hint is that it is me. Nee, made it perfectly clear that, I can not say where I work but that it is not the ATO. 
> Reluctantly ... ha ha or reticently ...  mm I like phlegmatically

  Hey guess what Marc?  It aint always about you.   :Biggrin:

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## Marc

> A housing BUILDING application to build.  The ATO check all the transactions. Cash is useless because you claim materials.  You should know that. 
> You find it hard understanding most the forum Marc.  Maybe its you

  So a housing application is a building application ... ok ... you must have a different dictionary. So we got that. Now the ATO checks all building applications for what? Council regulation compliance? 
Oh you mean that the ATO checks all building in progress for expenditures ... interesting, so we are in September, say I start building and go to bunnings to buy stuff. The ATO checks ... what? Oh yes, I pay in cash every expense at Bunnings, because I can. The ATO does ... what? Sure come July next year may be they have a look at what I declare and do their data match. As long as I have declared all my expenses correctly what is the problem right? So what if I am not a builder, I am working on my own properties, so I keep expenses for 25 years for capital gain tax. As long as my invoices are genuine and they don't fade away, I will be able to use them against capital gain tax. The ATO checks ... what exactly? 
I think that to make sense of what you write it is necessary to draw long bows and assumptions galore and then interpret loosely back into some form of English. 
"Cash is useless because you claim materials" ... this pearl of wisdom escapes my comprehension and I am not sure what to do with it. 
Sorry Autogenous, I have no idea what you are talking about most of the time. You are right, it must be me.

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## Marc

> Hey guess what Marc?  It ain't always about you.

  That's good to know.

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## intertd6

I used to work on the lower north shore of Sydney, my plumbers did emergency blockages etc, they demanded 4 hrs cash up front & have another 4 ready if it took longer before even leaving their driveway, if it wasn't waiting when they arrived they'd just go home, they would never get paid if they didn't use this method. Cash is a legitimate form of transaction, how individuals go about declaring of it later is a different matter.
inter

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## ringtail

Marc, I think what Auto is getting at with the cash+materials thing is this -: people (tradies) get nabbed when they claim the cost of materials but there is no corresponding labour to match those material purchases in the cashbooks.  I think this is what he might be getting at. Happy to be corrected. Of course, as you DIY there is no labour. However, there is also the curly question of where those materials have been applied. Have they really been used on a rental ? Or just used to tart up your PPR and claimed against the rental as maintenance ? Sooooo many investors do this. Tis why all property investors should be banned from DIY work on their investments. I know, I know, Nazi. But it's a big problem.

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## ringtail

> I used to work on the lower north shore of Sydney, my plumbers did emergency blockages etc, they demanded 4 hrs cash up front & have another 4 ready if it took longer before even leaving their driveway, if it wasn't waiting when they arrived they'd just go home, they would never get paid if they didn't use this method. Cash is a legitimate form of transaction, how individuals go about declaring of it later is a different matter.
> inter

  Fair enough. If they can get away with outrageous demands good luck to them. Of course, they provide invoices for it all, right ?

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## pharmaboy2

> Marc, I think what Auto is getting at with the cash+materials thing is this -: people (tradies) get nabbed when they claim the cost of materials but there is no corresponding labour to match those material purchases in the cashbooks.  I think this is what he might be getting at. Happy to be corrected. Of course, as you DIY there is no labour. However, there is also the curly question of where those materials have been applied. Have they really been used on a rental ? Or just used to tart up your PPR and claimed against the rental as maintenance ? Sooooo many investors do this. Tis why all property investors should be banned from DIY work on their investments. I know, I know, Nazi. But it's a big problem.

  Theres also the big Brother fear as well (no, not reality tv) - the homeowner who gets a council approval gets a letter from the ABS asking for name of builder, estimated works costs, contract - it's about a 10minute survey and it's compulsory. 
now, I don't think the ATO can just access ABS material, but they probably can with a warrant of some kind if you are being investigated.  So the builder who orders a new Q7 but has an income of $60k, might attract some attention, and off we go.

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## Marc

> Marc, I think what Auto is getting at with the cash+materials thing is this -: people (tradies) get nabbed when they claim the cost of materials but there is no corresponding labour to match those material purchases in the cashbooks.  I think this is what he might be getting at. Happy to be corrected. Of course, as you DIY there is no labour. However, there is also the curly question of where those materials have been applied. Have they really been used on a rental ? Or just used to tart up your PPR and claimed against the rental as maintenance ? Sooooo many investors do this. Tis why all property investors should be banned from DIY work on their investments. I know, I know, Nazi. But it's a big problem.

  Yes, different kettle of fish (what has the kettle to do with fish I don't' know but ... anyway), you are correct. Many rental property owners have been caught and have criminal records for claiming their O/O home renovation on a rental as an expense. Foolish and very easy to check.   
Sure, do a bas every 3 month and claim GST. There is a ratio between costs and gross income and when the pattern does not work, a red flag goes up.  
As far as rental owners doing repairs on their property, there is already a big handicap against that, you can not claim your own labour as an expense unless you are a registered business. That is grossly unfair but that's that. 
As far as the "cash is useless" quote ... perhaps the meaning is, cash is not necessarily useful to evade tax because you get caught anyway. 
Mm interesting ... so cash is a genuine method of payment after all.  :Smilie:   *“Some people call me Maurice, ‘cause I speak of the pompatus of love.”* _Steve Miller_

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## autogenous

If you pay a tradie cash, you don't get a warranty.   Sure, you ring up the ATO and say I paid this guy cash.  Tradies are allowed to take cash, just like the local deli.  It could very well blow up in your face big time with an ATO audit.

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## sol381

Paying cash is fine,, for mrs smith or old reggie down the road who dont have internet banking ..but if someone asks for a discount for paying cash they are assuming you will be taking off the tax.. youd be an idiot to take it off your profit..so there is always the assumption that paying cash is a tax dodge but it is just implied..anyone asking for a cash discount knows you will probably not be paying the tax and that may end bad..i dont do cash jobs nor pay anyone cash.. nearly all my jobs are put through council and i need or like to keep a transparent eye on where the money is coming and going..had a plasterer come out 2 weeks ago and said $3200 plus gst or $2,800 cash..he told me more than half his work is off the books..i payed him 3200 plus.. 
Never forget when gst was introduced and they all said it will end cash jobs..could not have been more wrong..

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## autogenous

Any tradie that trades for cash as a tax reduction is an idiot in this day and age.  Mainly because the ATO has very sophisticated software now, and they can access numerous departments data.  The ATO can also analyse bank expenditure with software. 
Planning permission is one the ATO follow because they know many owners push cash from cash they have earned on the side.    
Sure, GST has increased to some degree through the non-building industry market.  I haven't met a builder that pays cash. But the ATO has now more technology than ever, and people are being done more than ever.   
There is going to be a lot of people done over the next 5 years.  The ATO has requested all builders submit their invoices to the ATO for reconciling with tradie income revenue.  Any discrepancies are being met with some hefty fines.  There is a classic example of the change upon the taxpayer. 
Any tradies can take cash if thats how the owner wants to pay, just like the delicatessen down the road, or the hairdresser.  
The ATO is not stupid. The ATO is not in a bubble. They are on every scam. 
And this is why builders dont pay their tradies cash.   

> Paying cash is fine,, for mrs smith or old reggie down the road who dont have internet banking ..but if someone asks for a discount for paying cash they are assuming you will be taking off the tax.. youd be an idiot to take it off your profit..so there is always the assumption that paying cash is a tax dodge but it is just implied..anyone asking for a cash discount knows you will probably not be paying the tax and that may end bad..i dont do cash jobs nor pay anyone cash.. nearly all my jobs are put through council and i need or like to keep a transparent eye on where the money is coming and going..had a plasterer come out 2 weeks ago and said $3200 plus gst or $2,800 cash..he told me more than half his work is off the books..i payed him 3200 plus.. 
> Never forget when gst was introduced and they all said it will end cash jobs..could not have been more wrong..

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## Whitey66

> If you pay a tradie cash, you don't get a warranty.   Sure, you ring up the ATO and say I paid this guy cash.  Tradies are allowed to take cash, just like the local deli.  It could very well blow up in your face big time with an ATO audit.

  You need to stop talking about "paying with cash" as though it is always tax avoidance. Are you saying if I buy a new car with cash, then I get no warranty? I don't think so Tim.
As long as you get an invoice, your warranty is good regardless of how you pay. Where you would need to be careful is in the case of doing a job for a bloke, and in return him doing a job for you. Neither job has warranty and both can be done for tax avoidance.

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## Micky013

> Any tradie that trades for cash as a tax reduction is an idiot in this day and age.  Mainly because the ATO has very sophisticated software now, and they can access numerous departments data.  The ATO can also analyse bank expenditure with software. 
> Planning permission is one the ATO follow because they know many owners push cash from cash they have earned on the side.    
> Sure, GST has increased to some degree through the non-building industry market.  I haven't met a builder that pays cash. But the ATO has now more technology than ever, and people are being done more than ever.   
> There is going to be a lot of people done over the next 5 years.  The ATO has requested all builders submit their invoices to the ATO for reconciling with tradie income revenue.  Any discrepancies are being met with some hefty fines.  There is a classic example of the change upon the taxpayer. 
> Any tradies can take cash if thats how the owner wants to pay, just like the delicatessen down the road, or the hairdresser.  
> The ATO is not stupid. The ATO is not in a bubble. They are on every scam. 
> And this is why builders dont pay their tradies cash.

  Wow. Do you work for the ATO or are you just brain washed? Firstly, if you did the odd job as a "cashie" their sophisticated software would never know. If no one at the other end is reporting a payment and you dont declare it then it doesnt exist.  
Secondly, most businesses have some form of cash bankings - whether or not you hold back on a % every now and then or even make your  bankings inconsistent so you could skip one - they wont know.  
Its only when you get greedy that you get caught.  
When i left the tax business services as an accountant they had introduced their benchmarking and contractor reporting. The benchmarks where useless and most of the time the financials were manipulated if need be to stay within the "acceptable" range. Not for being dodgy but because they weren't really well thought out and didnt always have the small to medium enterprise in mind.    
To say a tradie is stupid for taking cash - is stupid. People pay cash every day. If a tradie takes cash for dropping the gst as a "discount" and the sucker customer thinks their getting a real discount then they are the ones that are stupid.

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## ringtail

> Wow. 
> To say a tradie is stupid for taking cash - is stupid. People pay cash every day. If a tradie takes cash for dropping the gst as a "discount" and the sucker customer thinks their getting a real discount then they are the ones that are stupid.

  The only sucker in that scenario is the tradie. The customer has got a real discount of 10%. If the tradie is legit he now has to find that gst component from the revised invoice total. The customer has just screwed the tradie. Remember, only the end customer actually pays GST. Businesses don't  pay, only collect. 
The margins on building materials are tiny and more often than not it works out better if the customer provides materials. When a customer can go and buy materials from bunnings (for example) for 5% more than me and I say I have to make at least 10% on materials most are willing to buy themselves. Suits me as I don't have to carry the cost or liabilty of the materials and the customer gets them cheaper than I can supply them after a margin is added.

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## ringtail

> Paying cash is fine,, for mrs smith or old reggie down the road who dont have internet banking ..but if someone asks for a discount for paying cash they are assuming you will be taking off the tax.. youd be an idiot to take it off your profit..so there is always the assumption that paying cash is a tax dodge but it is just implied..anyone asking for a cash discount knows you will probably not be paying the tax and that may end bad..i dont do cash jobs nor pay anyone cash.. nearly all my jobs are put through council and i need or like to keep a transparent eye on where the money is coming and going..had a plasterer come out 2 weeks ago and said $3200 plus gst or $2,800 cash..he told me more than half his work is off the books..i payed him 3200 plus.. 
> Never forget when gst was introduced and they all said it will end cash jobs..could not have been more wrong..

  Yep. I don't take the risk. Simply not worth it IMO yet so many pride themselves on doing it. But when the ATO says show me how you earned the money to pay for this mortgage, car, boat, jetski etc..... and one can't, one is royally screwed. Only a matter of time. The Government axing a lot of ATO staff hasn't helped their cause though. Plasterers, painters and tilers are the worst offenders I reckon. Most of their work is inside away from prying eyes, is quiet and in the case of painters and tilers the customer normally supplies the core materials.

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## Micky013

> The only sucker in that scenario is the tradie. The customer has got a real discount of 10%. If the tradie is legit he now has to find that gst component from the revised invoice total. The customer has just screwed the tradie. Remember, only the end customer actually pays GST. Businesses don't  pay, only collect. 
> The margins on building materials are tiny and more often than not it works out better if the customer provides materials. When a customer can go and buy materials from bunnings (for example) for 5% more than me and I say I have to make at least 10% on materials most are willing to buy themselves. Suits me as I don't have to carry the cost or liabilty of the materials and the customer gets them cheaper than I can supply them after a margin is added.

  Your not getting the scenario. The tradie is not going to claim the cash less gst. He pockets the net amount, doesn't report it so tax free. Hed be stupid to give a cash price less of gst then make it legit.  
Th customer should be asking for less gst plus and additional 10-20% off

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## ringtail

Ahh ok, sorry, thought we were still talking legit.

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## Whitey66

> But when the ATO says show me how you earned the money to pay for this mortgage, car, boat, jetski etc..... and one can't, one is royally screwed. Only a matter of time.

  And how many drug dealers get nabbed by the ATO if their monitoring systems are so good?, I haven't heard of too many, please correct me if i'm wrong. Drug dealers pay no tax at all on their deals and they can't catch them, and most of them live the good life buying up @@@@ left right and center.
These are the ones they should be cracking down on, not the tradie who does the occasional cashy off the books.

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## r3nov8or

...

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## sol381

saw the exact same sign at c.l. tools yesterday..many homeowners try pulling a few of those on jobs and they think they are helping you..

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## Marc

I have seen BMW, Mecedes, Range Rovers and Jaguars park in front of Centrelink to lodge their continuation forms and drive off. But Centrelink does not do data match with the RMS because of privacy issues .... aaaaaaaah we are so clever !

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## ringtail

> And how many drug dealers get nabbed by the ATO if their monitoring systems are so good?, I haven't heard of too many, please correct me if i'm wrong. Drug dealers pay no tax at all on their deals and they can't catch them, and most of them live the good life buying up @@@@ left right and center.
> These are the ones they should be cracking down on, not the tradie who does the occasional cashy off the books.

  Oh I agree but who is easier to catch ? They will always go for the easiest target rightly or wrongly.

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## intertd6

> I have seen BMW, Mecedes, Range Rovers and Jaguars park in front of Centrelink to lodge their continuation forms and drive off. But Centrelink does not do data match with the RMS because of privacy issues .... aaaaaaaah we are so clever !

  centerlink has been one stop shop for a few federal agencies for a few years now, so you have the not so ordinary people lining up for Medicare etc alongside the very ordinary in the queue for the dole.
inter

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## Cecile

> The bank can only report interest paid and cash movements greater than $10k.     
> They cannot not open the books of the account to the ATO, unless the ATO has a subpoena, in which case you will know all about it by then.....

  This is not quite correct.  Banks report ALL interest paid, even amounts as low as $1.  Cash movements are a different kettle of fish altogether.  ATO has powers under legislation to issue notices to banks to provide information, generally when people under audit are uncooperative.   

> And how many drug dealers get nabbed by the ATO  if their monitoring systems are so good?, I haven't heard of too many,  please correct me if i'm wrong. Drug dealers pay no tax at all on their  deals and they can't catch them, and most of them live the good life  buying up @@@@ left right and center.
> These are the ones they should be cracking down on, not the tradie who does the occasional cashy off the books.

  Not everything that the government does ends up in the media.

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## intertd6

> This is not quite correct.  Banks report ALL interest paid, even amounts as low as $1.  Cash movements are a different kettle of fish altogether.  ATO has powers under legislation to issue notices to banks to provide information, generally when people under audit are uncooperative.   
> Not everything that the government does ends up in the media.

   I'll second that, the ATO also has the greatest powers for search & enter anywhere or anytime they please.
when they do an audit they will line up all cheques written against your stubs
inter

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