# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  charge triple price (rant)

## manofaus

I have in the past and also here heard and read about trades charging triple price when they can't do a job. and there are people who actually pay that price.
As recently being on the receiving end of such a deal, I was driving to drop the kids off to school and had a little think...... 
when trades and companies do that because they don't have the time to do the job, then why quote at all? why can't you be honest and say that you won't be able to take on the job and the earliest you would be available is next year or whatever. The reason I say that is because when somebody decides to give you the job at triple cost do you knock it back? Hell NO. You take it on and manage, shafting other people who you have already 'booked' for that time and do crummy jobs because you are trying to do a job you normally would have no time for. As a customer it just really sucks to find out through back doors that you were taken. 
6 trades rang, 3 came out to quote, 1 sent quote.. triple price.. me stung... dammit its a small world. 
To bad a few rouges ruin it for the real decent tradies.

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## Marc

The price of goods or services in a free market is determined by offer and demand.
The supplier wants the highest possible price and the consumer the lowest. 
The real price is where this two meet. 
The purpose of asking for multiple quotes is to gauge the market and see how low the supplier is prepared to go keeping everything else equal.
The purpose of providing quotes is for the supplier to gauge the market and see how high the consumer is prepared to go. 
Note that any mention of ethics, honesty, fair go or other culturally expected behavior is purposely omitted. 
Anecdotal:
I had the exact opposite experience recently. 
Had a property on the market and tired at the remarks from the agent who was parroting a smart ass builder/buyer and was telling me that the brick veneer's cracks under the window were "structural" and would cost "a fortune" to fix, I decided to get a brick layer to re-point the brickwork.  
One phone call to the local builders supply got me a phone number and a veteran bricky who told me the job would cost approximately $200.
A week later the job was done, color matched to perfection and the cost? $120. 
I would have gladly paid up to $400. 
Offer and demand. 
Both sides must do their homework properly. 
PS
By accepting an over inflated price you will not only be out of pocket but will have skewed the market towards a higher price.

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## manofaus

dude, I don't want an explanation on the happenings of supply and demand, i just want a the cheapest price with the best result for me.
Otherwise people will feel justified in what they charge.
ha ha

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## Marc

> dude, I don't want an explanation on the happenings of supply and demand, i just want a the cheapest price with the best result for me.
> Otherwise people will feel justified in what they charge.
> ha ha

  Interesting reply.
You can only have the cheapest price if there is a supplier in your particular market prepared to meet your price expectation.
You will probably need to search for at least 4 quotes, and even that is no guarantee. 
A good example is the recent BER. A large offer of work that can only be met by a few large building firms. A buyer (government) not interested in getting the best price only interested in getting it done, produces prices that are 3 to 4 times the normal. 
As for people feeling justified in what they charge, that is also a very interesting concept.
What is a "fair" price? Who decides what is fair? What is fair for me may not be so fair for you.
Some people think that earning 100k a year is not fair. Some decide that earning 300k a year is obscene. Some think that a person that earns one million a year must be a crook for sure. 
All is relative and a price for a job is only the reflection of the cost of the job, the living expenses or aspirations of the builder and most importantly what people are prepared to pay for it. The idea that someone charging more is "greedy" and someone else is more "modest" are poor attempts to personalize a simple economic model of offer and demand that has worked for a long time.

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## intertd6

It's supply & demand plus market manipulation, some professionals in sydney are making over 100K a day, they are specialists & work under a a big round bright light, now that's obscene!
regards inter

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## Oldsaltoz

There are at least two types of buyers who get stung. 
1/ The person who goes ahead with a project based on one quote. 
2/ The person who engages a trade to complete a project not knowing what the quality of   workmanship or materials used will be. 
The waterproofing industry is a classic. 
Because the product used and application are critical. 
Getting contractor X rather than Y because X is $30.00 cheaper may not be the way to go, you can end up with a product off the shelf at the green shed that is entirely suitable for your application. 
No doubt this applies to other trades. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## Marc

Agreed Oldsaltoz. 
I find most complaints one hears from time to time in relation to builders charges rather odd. I understand them however I do not agree with them. 
I wholeheartedly sympathize with those who are conned and get a poor quality job and no remedy. That is a different story.
However, if I agree to pay after getting a quote, I can hardly complain afterwards.  
Take the following scenario for example. A hail storm damages 300 houses in a suburb. The insurers employ every available roofer. I need a roof repaired in another location and can not get a tradesman to even quote.
Finally one shows up and I take the quote.
When the rush is over I realize I paid 3 times what I would have paid in normal circumstances.
I complain the tradesman is immoral, greedy, dishonest.
Is he? 
Of course not. His job was worth 3 times at that point in time. Now that there is no more work, his job is worth 1/3. That is how things work. Will you complain about the price you paid for shares after they go down? What about when they go up? 
The "morality" of what others charge for a job, including surgeons alluded in Inter's post, is a poor attempt at shifting responsibility to the other person for what is our decision and choice. 
If I did not chose to become a specialist, I can hardly hide behind morality pretenses by elevation saying that the surgeon is obscene, and that is why I did not chose to become a surgeon, so that I don't become "obscene". 
I know a bunch of people who earn way more than a specialist doctor, more like the doctor's yearly salary every month. Is that "immoral"? Why? 
Their activities are within the law of marketing and most of us are their customers. There will always be that element of resentment that is converted into a moral issue in order to justify our poor choices. 
"I did not become rich because I didn't want to be like those filthy rich immoral people"
Sour grapes more likely.

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## intertd6

One persons obscene is another's rip off.
regards inter

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## Marc

> One persons obscene is another's rip off.

  Precisely my point Inter ... what is a "rip off" ? 
If I accept a quote that is 3 times the normal price am I getting ripped off or am I being stupid for not checking? Are we judging the morality of the tradesman who quoted a high price? Did he use a gun to get the quote signed? When you buy CocaCola at the supermarket you are paying $4 for a product that costs $0.35 ... Rip off? 
If I accept to pay a surgeon $10,000 for a facelift after asking around and finding such is the price all charge, am I getting ripped off? Are we judging the morality of the surgeons in general who charge $10,000? What is an honest price? $5,000? $1,000? Free on Medicare with Julia's blessing? 
The mentality that a person charging a high price for his time is somehow "immoral" when it is above what our own mind frame dictates falls in the popular mantra that "rich is evil and poor is virtuous". I know marketing mentors who charge $1,000 an hour. Is that wrong? What about speakers who charge $100,000 for a conference? Real bad hei? Would you like to know that some itinerant preachers charge 50% of the collection?

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## johnc

I hardly think most of the previous post is relevent to the original post. Yes it is annoying if you find you have been over charged or misled over work you have arranged. I don't think triple charging is at all common and is in fact quite rare, however sometimes people will load a fee on a job that they either aren't keen on or suspect there may be something hidden that will materialise once the work commences. It really comes down to trying to get more than one quote and doing a bit of homework beforehand. We all get caught at some point, it doesn't often mean we have been ripped off just that we could have got a better price elsewhere. In the end if the job is done properly we soon forget the price and with any luck we will have a few wins elsewhere that balances out the pain.

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## intertd6

The crux of my reply is about the difference between some one charging $135 hr to do something that is regulated by a free market plus supply & demand, whereas someone charging $13,500 hr is in an industry who has protected it by restricting  the amount of people in it & creating a huge skills under supply.
Regards inter

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## Marc

> The crux of my reply is about the difference between some one charging $135 hr to do something that is regulated by a free market plus supply & demand, whereas someone charging $13,500 hr is in an industry who has protected it by restricting  the amount of people in it & creating a huge skills under supply.
> Regards inter

   Uhuuu yes, the evil AMA goes around at night knocking off medical students who dare to venture into surgery. Disables the toilets in hospitals and laces the food in cafeterias with laxatives to drive interns away.
Give me a break. Surgery is governed by offer and demand just like plumbers and electricians. Half of my family are either ophthalmologist, orthopaedic surgeons or paediatricians. I sat with them to prepare for exams through the night. It is very difficult to become a surgeon and that is why most people quit. The restriction of trade is not a conspiracy but a fact of life derived from individual choices.
The negative values that make a person see red at other peoples earnings are the brakes in that person's development. If you are able to celebrate other people's success, you will open up to your own success. And please don't start with money is not everything or that it can not buy happiness or love because I want to keep my breakfast. :Cry:

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## manofaus

In this instance its not a supply and demand thing at all. Its an opportunistic thing. You are right, I did try to do homework, but ran out of time. The person who did the job basically could not fit it in to his schedule but seeing as I was going to pay the higher price he did. He then cut off two other bathrooms that he was doing concurrently with mine and dragged them out making excuses why he could not finish them and did my bathroom instead. 
This is what I have the problem with. For a quick cash grab he put out three people to get it.

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## Marc

> In this instance its not a supply and demand thing at all. Its an opportunistic thing. You are right, I did try to do homework, but ran out of time. The person who did the job basically could not fit it in to his schedule but seeing as I was going to pay the higher price he did. He then cut off two other bathrooms that he was doing concurrently with mine and dragged them out making excuses why he could not finish them and did my bathroom instead. 
> This is what I have the problem with. For a quick cash grab he put out three people to get it.

  Hi manofaus. The problem was clear in your first post. You got overcharged or you think you got overcharged anyway.
Since that is a fact in the past, there are only few things that remain to do now on this thread.  
One is to show the bill and get someone to scrutinize it and see by how much was it really over.
Two is what I propose and that is to debate _why_ you were overcharged.  
You however go on a tangent and say that somehow the tradesman was immoral unethical towards you and others. 
I don't think so. 
I see it this way: 
You wanted the bathroom so badly that you paid way over the going price.
You got your bathroom, and for that you enticed him with lots of money to dump other jobs and do yours first. 
Not happy with that, now you want to blame the bad tradesman who was so unethical as to dump other jobs that paid less for yours that paid more. 
Am I missing something? Did the guy use undue force? A gun? *"A quick cash grab" * How dare he! ... hang on ... who paid him? Wasn't it you? :Doh:  
Come on mate, enjoy your bathroom and don't be so bitter.

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## Marc

> I hardly think most of the previous post is relevent to the original post. Yes it is annoying if you find you have been over charged or misled over work you have arranged. I don't think triple charging is at all common and is in fact quite rare, however sometimes people will load a fee on a job that they either aren't keen on or suspect there may be something hidden that will materialise once the work commences. It really comes down to trying to get more than one quote and doing a bit of homework beforehand. We all get caught at some point, it doesn't often mean we have been ripped off just that we could have got a better price elsewhere. In the end if the job is done properly we soon forget the price and with any luck we will have a few wins elsewhere that balances out the pain.

   For once I agree with JohnC take away the first sentence of course. 
If the facts are how we read them on the post, it was a matter of timing. You want int NOW, you must pay to jump the queue. No good to complain afterwards that the guy was immoral for dumping others and jump at the opportunity of a better paid job. I had to have jobs done in a hurry to coincide with a bigger job that was scheduled. I paid double concrete cutters and core drills before the brickies came and I paid double. So what?  
Will I now drag the guy in the mud because he did my job the day after I called and he was booked solid for two weeks?
Come on!

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## intertd6

> Uhuuu yes, the evil AMA goes around at night knocking off medical students who dare to venture into surgery. Disables the toilets in hospitals and laces the food in cafeterias with laxatives to drive interns away.
> Give me a break. Surgery is governed by offer and demand just like plumbers and electricians. Half of my family are either ophthalmologist, orthopaedic surgeons or paediatricians. I sat with them to prepare for exams through the night. It is very difficult to become a surgeon and that is why most people quit. The restriction of trade is not a conspiracy but a fact of life derived from individual choices.
> The negative values that make a person see red at other peoples earnings are the brakes in that person's development. If you are able to celebrate other people's success, you will open up to your own success. And please don't start with money is not everything or that it can not buy happiness or love because I want to keep my breakfast.

  Offer & demand, you have nailed it in one, to few offers & creating a higher demand, no wonder they are importing thousands of doctors to cover the demand, trouble is there is not a higher percentage of specialists amongst them to stop this rip off, which some would consider it in a way to be white collar extortion.
Now with trades there is not a limited amount spots in TAFE colleges to train them, if more apprentices enrole you know what they do ? They meet the demand & train them. Tradies don't fly under the radar that far for that long.
regards inter

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## Pulse

> It's supply & demand plus market manipulation, some professionals in sydney are making over 100K a day, they are specialists & work under a a big round bright light, now that's obscene!

   

> The crux of my reply is about the difference between some one charging $135 hr to do something that is regulated by a free market plus supply & demand, whereas someone charging $13,500 hr is in an industry who has protected it by restricting the amount of people in it & creating a huge skills under supply.

  There is no specialist huge skills under supply. There is mal-distribution though. In my community three orthopaedic surgeons service 220 000 people. The Australian average is 1 per 23 000. In Sydney there are plenty of trained surgeons but there is no attraction to work in rural areas. 
The NSW award for Visiting Medical officers in public hospitals is about $190/hr. The costs of running an office is between $70 and $120/hr. Now you see why doctors won't work in the public system. 
Fees as a private patient are set by the surgeon, so obviously vary like any industry. There are people with money who expect to pay a lot as their health is important to them and they want the best. Most surgeons charge between the no-gap rate of the health funds and the inflation indexed original Medicare rate (which is published by the AMA). 
Now the fee for an operation includes "aftercare" which means hospital and rooms visits for a set time. 
Take a clavicle fracture (plating a fracture) for example: 
Medicare $221.80
Best Fund no gap (HCF) $359.45
Worst Fund no gap $277
indexed medicare rate $576.68 
Time taken, 2 hours setup and surgery, 15 minutes 1st visit, 15 minutes 2nd visit at 6 weeks.
Using the best fund the hourly rate is $143
Using the indexed rate it is $230  
Using a more involved procedure like a Knee replacement:
Medicare $1293.25
Best Fund no gap (HCF) $2495.90
Worst Fund no gap $1551.90
indexed medicare rate $3362.45 
Time taken, 2-2.5 hours setup and surgery, hospital visits every day until discharge 6 x 15 minutes,  15 minutes 1st visit, 15 minutes 2nd visit at 6 weeks, 15 minutes 3rd visit at 12 weeks.
Using the best fund the hourly rate is $587. 
Now a knee replacement should last 15 years depending on age and it is critical to get it right. Let me know if you think that is too much to pay. 
Surgical training includes 6 years med school, 2 years hospital based, 4-8 years speciality training. Most people start as surgeons aged about 35 after paying for their education for the first 6 years and then earning hourly rates between $17 and $50 for the next 10 years. 
BTW you can't directly compare surgery to a trade, If something is buggered up by a tradesman, money will fix it. If your body is buggered up by a bad operation/infection, you get to live with disability or pain forever. 
Cheers
Pulse

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## Marc

> There is no specialist huge skills under supply. There is mal-distribution though. In my community three orthopaedic surgeons service 220 000 people. The Australian average is 1 per 23 000. In Sydney there are plenty of trained surgeons but there is no attraction to work in rural areas. 
> The NSW award for Visiting Medical officers in public hospitals is about $190/hr. The costs of running an office is between $70 and $120/hr. Now you see why doctors won't work in the public system. 
> Fees as a private patient are set by the surgeon, so obviously vary like any industry. There are people with money who expect to pay a lot as their health is important to them and they want the best. Most surgeons charge between the no-gap rate of the health funds and the inflation indexed original Medicare rate (which is published by the AMA). 
> Now the fee for an operation includes "aftercare" which means hospital and rooms visits for a set time. 
> Take a clavicle fracture (plating a fracture) for example: 
> Medicare $221.80
> Best Fund no gap (HCF) $359.45
> Worst Fund no gap $277
> indexed medicare rate $576.68 
> ...

  A good point by point analysis but don't expect logic to come in the way of a good witch hunt.
Rich people are evil. Fact of life. Money is dirty, fact of life.
The more money you make the dirtier you are. 
I used to do this every year with my personal development students: 
Question:
-How much is it "OK" to earn for a person in a year?
$50k to $100k ?  Full approval
$200k ? Most approved.  $300 half disapproved. $500 most disapproved. 
$ one million?  Cries of outrage and loud obscenities 
95% of the population is programmed with "anti-values" that state money is wrong. 
The result is resentment against anything and anyone making more money then their own perceived ceiling. 
A consequence is that activities making more than average money have an auto-selection effect that only attracts 5% of the population that believes it is OK for them to earn more than average. 
The others shun away from it but don't really know why, so must make a conscious rationale for such choice that usually is geared towards the morality of money charged for personal services. The higher the ticket, the more immoral. 
Of course this sad cliche is well known by movie directors that repeat it and magnify it in a grotesque way over and over in their movies knowing it attracts multitudes.
 Just take Titanic for an example.

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## Marc

By the way there is a very easy fix to the shortage of doctor's supply in the bush but one that no government is game to take up.
Simply give 5 years personal income tax moratorium to any doctor willing to go to a rural area.
5 years of no personal income tax will entice a good lot of doctors to move even if it is temporarily. 
Can you imagine the populace outcry? 
Yes that is why it will never be taken up. Better let people die from appendicitis or exposed fractures or any other easily fixed condition that people die every day from in the bush.

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## ringtail

> By the way there is a very easy fix to the shortage of doctor's supply in the bush but one that no government is game to take up.
> Simply give 5 years personal income tax moratorium to any doctor willing to go to a rural area.
> 5 years of no personal income tax will entice a good lot of doctors to move even if it is temporarily. 
> Can you imagine the populace outcry? 
> Yes that is why it will never be taken up. Better let people die from appendicitis or exposed fractures or any other easily fixed condition that people die every day from in the bush.

  
I think a even better way is for the Government to pay a certain portion of the Doctors HECS debt in return for *mandatory bush time.* All doctors at some stage of their career should be required to serve 2 years in the bush IMO, - no exceptions. Exchange Lexus for Landcruiser  :Tongue:

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## Marc

> I think a even better way is for the Government to pay a certain portion of the Doctors HECS debt in return for *mandatory bush time.* All doctors at some stage of their career should be required to serve 2 years in the bush IMO, - no exceptions. Exchange Lexus for Landcruiser

  Sure, why not? The same should apply to carpenters electricians plumbers and any other trade shortage.
Mandatory service in Siberia for 2 years at half pay. 
A winner for sure. 
Castro would love that one.
What Landcruiser? Horseback ! 
Jokes aside, that one was already tried and failed. Overseas doctors restricted to ten years of public hospital work before given a medicare provider number. Mandatory 3 years "rural area training" (read work it alone with no infrastructure nor supervision) a travesty of what was called "training". On the other side, those areas who need a doctor are allowed to bypass the whole medical "training" for overseas and contract directly overseas doctors who have not passed the AMEC course. Condition? Not to apply for a resident visa. 
Just one example of government moving with the grace and precision of an elephant in a china shop.

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## ringtail

> Sure, why not? The same should apply to carpenters electricians plumbers and any other trade shortage.

  I dont think so. Maybe if tradies were paid medicare :Tongue:

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## Marc

> I dont think so. Maybe if tradies were paid medicare

   Interesting reply. 
Medicare is a form or health welfare for the benefit of the patient not the doctor. 
Patient pays $50 the consultation, patient goes to medicare and claims $30.
The fact that some doctors agree to accept just $30 and on top accept to do the paperwork as well so that the patient doesn't have to inconvenience his busy schedule, does not make the doctor a medicare employee.
so the analogy stands and mandatory "service" Stalin style makes as much sense for doctors or electricians

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