# Forum Home Renovation Solar Electrical Systems  How much do batteries cost to install?

## ebf

Just out of curiosity, on an existing system (and assuming all else stays the same, i.e. inverter), how much does it generally cost for a battery to be installed? I've seen some figures bandied about of $5,000 plus which seems excessive for what I would assume is just a single day's work.

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## Marc

That's to buy a bank of batteries not the installation. What would you do with one battery anyway? 
What a sham that we are even considering having batteries. What's next, a wind mill to charge the battery with 12v? A hand pump for water from a bore? A horse to go to work? 
Actually ... come to think of it, I could go to work on horseback, only 5 km from home ... mm I'll think about it, you think about your battery ...  :Smilie: 
Would the office cleaner pick up the horse poo in the car park? I'll ask him.

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## sol381

Lighten up mate.. just a simple question.

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## Optimus

Never miss an opportunity to talk about yourself do you, marc?

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## ringtail

Put it this way, we have 1 x 150AH battery at the farm and it runs the entire show no problem at all. Fridge, lights, 3 water pumps, TV, phone chargers, inverters etc.......So that's what you do with one battery. With 4 of them in 48v config I will be able to easily run 3/4 of my house. So all lights, tv and entertainment, PC and most importantly, the fridge. 4 batteries will cost me no more than $600. As far as installation goes, it depends on how it's done and who does it I guess.

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## intertd6

> Just out of curiosity, on an existing system (and assuming all else stays the same, i.e. inverter), how much does it generally cost for a battery to be installed? I've seen some figures bandied about of $5,000 plus which seems excessive for what I would assume is just a single day's work.

  it depends on whether you want to do it properly or not, you can use cheap batteries not designed for solar systems, no other charging sources, or improper battery maintenance systems & kill them way before their time.
inter

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## SilentButDeadly

> Just out of curiosity, on an existing system (and assuming all else stays the same, i.e. inverter), how much does it generally cost for a battery to be installed? I've seen some figures bandied about of $5,000 plus which seems excessive for what I would assume is just a single day's work.

  Existing system may/will need a new inverter. Plus the batteries. Plus additional wiring and appropriate infrastructure. Five K could be getting off lightly.  
On our current setup I'd expect to have to spend more than that to ensure a proper build and a long infrastructure lifespan. 
In the end, it's cheaper to use less.

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## Marc

> it depends on whether you want to do it properly or not, you can use cheap batteries not designed for solar systems, no other charging sources, or improper battery maintenance systems & kill them way before their time.
>  inter

  Agreed. A full on system to be off the grid is expensive. To hook up a truck battery or two to a wind powered car alternator is of course cheaper and works too. It all depends what you expect from the system. 
 My comment that the others liked so much, refers to this new wave of "I can beat the system if I just manage to do xyz".
 The very concept of having an independent system should be laughable and the disgrace is that it is not.  
People have come to accept 20k or 30k "investment" to make their own electricity as a smart move. What a joke! 
 So after entrusting successive governments for the last 70 years with billions upon billions of our tax dollars to build generators, dams, poles and wires, we see governments washing their hands and place it in the too hard basket with different moronic reasoning, sell the joint and suggest with yet more of our money as incentives, to go it alone.  
 I think we need a revolution not a solar system aided by one or more batteries.

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## johnc

I had the impression $7k for something like the power wall was a starting point. New inverter as a minimum and the question of having enough surplus day time power to charge it. Some of the new systems allow charging on off peak power and drawing off the battery during peaks. It will get cheaper, so no rush. New inverter and adding a battery to an existing system is probably around $1500.00

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## Bros

Can you have a foot in both camps eg having an off grid installation and a grid connection if the off grid fails due to lack of charging due to weather or equipment failure? 
I think to go totally off grid you need to be pretty disciplined in power use. A mate of mine has an island house that he goes to and his many relies and he is always seems to be adding more batteries and panels plus he also just bought a new Diesel generator.

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## chrisp

> Can you have a foot in both camps eg having an off grid installation and a grid connection if the off grid fails due to lack of charging due to weather or equipment failure?

  I suspect that you can - see this link for a local inverter SP PRO AU Models  
I would suspect that that it would be more conventional and convenient to have the system grid-tied most of the time and (automatically) switch to island mode if the grid went down. 
The technology is and has been available for quite awhile but there has been a lag with regulations catching up allowing suitable tariffs to import and export at will (e.g. To allow arbitrage). 
The major technical issue with grid-tied storage systems is deciding, and developing, the algorithm for when to use (charge or discharge) the storage versus the grid, and whether to import and export or only import.

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## ringtail

Not sure if things have changed in Brisbane but if one is grid tied and a blackout happens all solar output is isolated. I don't know if the authorities have allowed a grid tied / island thing here yet. We have no plans to go off grid at home and probably never could with a pool, coffee machines and roasters, welders, and lots of other machinery to run. But putting the lighter demand or constant demand items like lights, fridge, tv, puter, modem on battery/inverter power is dead set easy and pretty cheap if one knows where to get good batteries at wholesale price. No idea on ROI but electricity prices keep going up so the time shortens every 6 months with each price hike.

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## Marc

> Can you have a foot in both camps eg having an off grid installation and a grid connection if the off grid fails due to lack of charging due to weather or equipment failure? 
> I think to go totally off grid you need to be pretty disciplined in power use. A mate of mine has an island house that he goes to and his many relies and he is always seems to be adding more batteries and panels plus he also just bought a new Diesel generator.

  Yes, I know a guy appropriately called Wether-ill that would benefit from this advice hu hu.

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## woodbe

> The very concept of having an independent system should be laughable and the disgrace is that it is not.  
> People have come to accept 20k or 30k "investment" to make their own electricity as a smart move. What a joke!

  If someone in the suburbs has the capability to run their own power  system detached from the grid, they are reducing the draw on the power  system. In the current broken energy system that is a benefit for both  the grid and the owner. 
Also, the costs of a reasonable system is very common out of the suburbs when someone builds a new house on land a km or so from the existing electricity grid. When the wires and poles were owned and operated by government, the infrastructure installation to such a house was subsided by the government accepting a long term cost basis. A Private operator now running the poles and wires puts a high up front cost on the connection which makes an independent system cheaper to install and of course much cheaper to run.

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## Smurf

A few random comments: 
So far as feed-in rates are concerned, they are generally based with reference to wholesale electricity prices. Yep, the power stations get stuff all, no more than a quarter of what you pay for electricity at home, and the FIT in most places reflects that. In case you're wondering who does get your money - that would be networks (most of it) and the rest for retailers, GST and so on. But there's not a lot of money being made in power generation that I can assure you. 
Hence why even the more engineering focused generation companies such as Snowy Hydro and Hydro Tasmania have both acquired retailers, they really couldn't afford to just be generating and selling wholesale and not to the public. Red and Lumo are both owned by Snowy. Momentum Energy is Hydro Tas retail in Vic, SA, NSW and parts of Qld. 
But things are changing. Playford B, Northern, Anglesea, Morwell, Redbank, Munmorah, Swanbank B power stations are all gone and the shutdown of the huge Hazelwood station gets underway on Monday next week. Suffice to say this is pushing prices up and in a big way - future hedge contracts have more than doubled and it's getting close to being triple what they were. 
It follows that if this remains the case then it's only a matter of time until both residential power prices and FIT rates reflect that increase. 
So ideas about diverting solar power into things like water heaters aren't going to look so good once the FIT goes up as it almost certainly will. Things like heat pump water heaters start to look a much better option rather than using your own, now far more valuable, solar to run an inefficient electric HWS instead of feeding it into the grid. 
Exactly what happens and when is hard to predict but it's only a matter of time until a retailer sees a commercial advantage through gaining customers by increasing their FIT to reflect where the wholesale market is going. And once one does it, the others will likely follow. 
So bear that in mind. At the wholesale level prices are going up in a big way. Those power stations still operating are, for the first time in a long time, actually making money now (seriously, the general public would be truly amazed at how the finances have been in the industry until now - you might be paying a fortune for power but it sure hasn't been going to the generators that I'm extremely sure of!). 
Can you have a hybrid system using the grid as backup? 
I'm not sure of the rules everywhere but in Tas you can use the off-peak tariffs (61 or 62) for battery charging if you want to. Just need the battery charger to meet electrical regulations etc and be hard wired (can't be plugged in since no power points are allowed on the off-peak tariffs). But you could certainly use solar + off-peak charging if you wanted to. 
I'm pretty sure that Qld has a similar approach, at least they did not long ago, and will let you do the same. Not sure about any other state. 
Also in Tas if you've got grid-connected solar then it's worth considering using Tariff 93 which replaces your present 2 or 3 meters (Light & Power, Heating, Off-peak if you have it) with a single meter with time of use pricing. That means you'll be using your own solar power to heat water, with the fallback if there's no sun being that water will be heated at the off-peak rate provided that you set a timer to limit water heating to between 10am and 4pm Monday to Friday (plus 9pm to 7am if you want to) and all day on weekends. That gets around the problem of not being able to use your own solar to run a HWS that is otherwise heated off-peak or on the heating tariff (Tariff 41 also known as HydroHeat). This should also work nicely for anyone with an electric vehicle - just charge it overnight, of an afternoon, or anytime on weekends.   
So it's potentially a good deal BUT the catch is a relatively high price during the peak times (7am - 10am and 4pm - 9pm Monday to Friday) - that wouldn't be such a good idea for those who use a lot of power during that time (eg at work all day and have electric heating) but is worth looking at for those home during the day or who don't use electricity for space heating (eg they have wood, gas etc). 
Some other states have gone down a rather complex and costly track with time of use pricing. In Tas the approach is to keep it as simple as possible. Only two rates, peak and off-peak, with 128 hours every week at the off-peak rate, 40 hours at the peak rate, and both the actual times and price charged are fixed with no regular variations. NT is pursuing a similar "keep it as simple as possible" approach although the actual times are different to those in Tas. In both cases it's entirely voluntary, you can keep the regular tariffs if you want to, but the idea is to make the TOU option good enough that consumers will actually want it without being forced.

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## Smurf

> I don't know if the authorities have allowed a grid tied / island thing here yet.

  Not sure about other states but no problem in Tas as long as it meets electrical (technical) requirements. 
Any such installation will receive a visit from an official Electrical Inspector to make sure it's up to scratch but the onus there is on the installer should any problems be found - they'll get the kick and orders to fix it not the home owner. 
Main thing the Inspector will be worried about is to ensure that there's no possibility of power being fed back into the grid during a blackout. So long as that criteria is met, no issues with it as a concept.

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## Bros

A bit of tidying up done.  
Some posts moved to new thread, some copied to new thread so please keep the thread about solar and battery connection costs.

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## commodorenut

> Also, the costs of a reasonable system is very common out of the suburbs when someone builds a new house on land a km or so from the existing electricity grid. When the wires and poles were owned and operated by government, the infrastructure installation to such a house was subsided by the government accepting a long term cost basis. A Private operator now running the poles and wires puts a high up front cost on the connection which makes an independent system cheaper to install and of course much cheaper to run.

   This is a very good point that urban dwellers never seem to come across. 
A good mate of mine has finished building his "retirement house" on acreage many miles away from a regional centre.  He used many of the realistic green strategies for passive temperature comfort, like building into the side of a hill, living areas all north facing, wide eaves, concrete floors that get sun in winter (but not summer) and completely off-grid bar wireless internet & mobile phones. 
He was quoted >$75K to install poles & wires to put power to the house.  For around $35K he installed 48 panels on the north-facing roof (22 degree pitch, basic gable design) and has a battery bank in one of the under-house garage spaces.  He can go 3 days without any sun (this was discovered when the charge controller went down).  In hindsight, they probably could have halved the amount of batteries & added a backup generator with the savings. 
But it's all about smart usage.  All the usual household items are run from a large inverter - TV, fridge etc.  Cooking needs are covered by bottled gas for the stovetop & BBQ, or the microwave - there's no oven, but they use the BBQ for that, when required.  Because of the distance from civilisation, they have a couple of large deep-freezers in the garage as well - these are run flat-out during the day off excess solar energy, but are on a timer not to run at night. 
Aircon also runs only during sunshine hours - after this the house stays cool due it's interior thermal mass.  In winter they have a wet-back combustion fire, which feeds hydronic panels in the bedrooms (fitted with taps to control flow - as they usually only heat 1 bedroom unless they have guests).  They only run the dishwasher & washing machine during daylight hours - easy enough to do when you are semi-retired & work from home. 
Of a night-time, the only consumers of power from the batteries are some LED downlights, fridge, the water pump (feeding a large accumulator), ceiling fans in summer, and maybe the TV (or alternatively battery powered devices such as laptops & iPads).  They also live the old-style "farmer's hours" - getting up at sunrise, and going to bed early, which had a dramatic impact on their battery drain. 
It's not a big lifestyle change for them to be able to live comfortably off-grid, and the cost of the system was less than half that of getting the power on - so the solar & batteries were a much better option.  With what they save in power bills, and assuming all costs stay the same as today (for calculation purposes) and you get 10 years out of the battery/solar array, they could probably go 30-40 years (ie 3-4 systems @$35K each) before the grid costs would equal out ($75K connection + ~$2-3K/yr).  That being said, grid supplied power will only go up, and solar/battery costs are coming down, so it will see out their lifetimes before it might even have a chance of grid power breaking even.

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## Saltypete

It is all about smart usage. We are looking at installing a system with panels and possibly batteries if the numbers stack up. If I had an energy information system to tell me how and when we use energy in better detail I would have more confidence in sizing a system. As it is, we will probably err on the large side of things to minimise risk of under specifying. Definitely going for an energy use information option to help get the best use out of the system so we have actual info to manage down the track. Would love to go off grid, but I don't think it makes anything like economic sense in the 'burbs.....

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## Oldsaltoz

Hi. johnc.
Just got a quote, $12,500 to install a 6KWhs Battery to my 12x 250w solar panels. ( 3,000 W) The battery can charge and discharge up to 2.7's per day.

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## Bros

> Just got a quote, $12,500 to install a 6KWhs Battery to my 12x 250w solar panels. ( 3,000 W) The battery can charge and discharge up to 2.7's per day.

   Are you going to get one?

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## DavoSyd

which batteries?

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## chrisp

> Hi. johnc.
> Just got a quote, $12,500 to install a 6KWhs Battery to my 12x 250w solar panels. ( 3,000 W) The battery can charge and discharge up to 2.7's per day.

  What is your cost per kWh from the grid? If I assume $0.29/kWh, 1 full charge-discharge cycle per day, and a usable capacity of 2.7kWh. The energy cost per day saved or mitigated is 2.7 kWh/day x $0.29/kWh = $0.783/day. At $12,500 for the system, the payback period is $12,500/$0.783/day = 15,964 days, or about 43 years. You may like to check out what the cycle life of the battery pack is.

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## DavoSyd

perhaps it's "it can charge and discharge up to 2.7 times per day" - so 6kWh x 2.7 per day 
plus on ToU tariffs it is ~$0.5/kWh in peak - so aim your battery use then...

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## Saltypete

The last few posts prompt me to post again. Finally bit the bullet late last year and have installed panels and a battery.
5.4 Kw and a Tesla powerwall 2. Got great rebates from the local council that made the battery worthwhile. It will still take a few years to break even, but it is all heading the right way.

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## Oldsaltoz

This is part of the e-mail sent. 
Natural Solar is proudly 100% Australian owned and operated. We lead the industry in the Battery Revolution with the installation of the very first Tesla Powerwall system in Australia.
We are specialised in fully tailored home Energy Storage Solutions and we provide you with an accurate assessment to help you in making informed decision. 
Please find attached your quotation for the solution advised. 
If you are purchasing a solar PV component, you may be entitled to the Federal Government Rebate STCs (small-scale technology certificates) also referred to as Energy Certificates (EC), and, where applicable, this is shown in the quote and deducted from the total cost of your system.

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## Oldsaltoz

Tariff *2016-2017 Rate GST incl.* *2017-2018 Rate GST incl.*  Tariff 11 27.071c 28.479c  Tariff 31 15.865c 17.354c  Tariff 33 21.956c 22.530c  Solar feed-in tariff 7.448c 10.102c

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## Bros

> This is part of the e-mail sent. 
> Natural Solar is proudly 100% Australian owned and operated. We lead the industry in the Battery Revolution with the installation of the very first Tesla Powerwall system in Australia.
> We are specialised in fully tailored home Energy Storage Solutions and we provide you with an accurate assessment to help you in making informed decision. 
> Please find attached your quotation for the solution advised. 
> If you are purchasing a solar PV component, you may be entitled to the Federal Government Rebate STCs (small-scale technology certificates) also referred to as Energy Certificates (EC), and, where applicable, this is shown in the quote and deducted from the total cost of your system.

   Well and good but are you going to get a battery or was it more expensive than you expected?

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## Oldsaltoz

Here is a bit more info on the battery systems available.  https://naturalsolar.com.au/sonnenba...n-battery-eco/

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## chrisp

> What is your cost per kWh from the grid? If I assume $0.29/kWh, 1 full charge-discharge cycle per day, and a usable capacity of 2.7kWh. The energy cost per day saved or mitigated is 2.7 kWh/day x $0.29/kWh = $0.783/day. At $12,500 for the system, the payback period is $12,500/$0.783/day = 15,964 days, or about 43 years. You may like to check out what the cycle life of the battery pack is.

   

> perhaps it's "it can charge and discharge up to 2.7 times per day" - so 6kWh x 2.7 per day 
> plus on ToU tariffs it is ~$0.5/kWh in peak - so aim your battery use then...

  I must admit that I was somewhat confused by the “2.7” and what it referred to. I see from a link in a post above that it equates to the number of cycles per day to meet the 10 year warranty. 
I think that it would be hard to average more than a cycle a day, but I suppose that it would be possible.   

> Tariff *2016-2017 Rate GST incl.* *2017-2018 Rate GST incl.*  Tariff 11 27.071c 28.479c  Tariff 31 15.865c 17.354c  Tariff 33 21.956c 22.530c  Solar feed-in tariff 7.448c 10.102c

  redoing the calaculation above using 6kWh per cycle (we can always scale it later to account for more cycles per day): 
Using $0.28479/kWh, 1 full charge-discharge cycle per day, and a usable capacity of 6kWh. The energy cost per day saved or mitigated is 6 kWh/day x $0.28479/kWh = $1.71/day. At $12,500 for the system, the payback period is $12,500/$1.71/day = 7,310 days, or about 20 years.

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## chrisp

I’m in the process of evaluating the idea in installing a battery pack at home. At the moment I’m collecting data on my solar system and on the household energy usage. It’s far too early for me to be able to reliably calaculate the optimum battery size as I haven’t yet collected a full year of data yet. Just for the interested, here is the electricity use and PV output for today...   
It was a reasonable day for PV output (39.3 kWh generated), and the electricity usuage was lowish (13.6 kWh consumed) however it was mostly before sunup or after sundown (due to night owl offspring!). Over the whole 24 hour period, 8.1 kWh was imported from the grid (about $2.35). Therefore I would have needed a 8.1kWh battery pack to cover the dark periods. I wouldn’t have been able to cycle a battery pack more than once today regardless of its size. 
I also exported 34 kWh over the same period ($3.75). Even without a battery pack I’m about $1.40 ahead (or about $0.40 ahead after the daily supply charge). 
The battery pack size calaculation and payback period calculation is actually quite complicated to optimise!  
Oldsaltoz, I certainly would encourage you to go ahead with the battery pack, but I also want you to be aware of the cost benefits and the payback period. 
Personally, I’m going to collect more data and time my energy consumption to better utilise the PV before ‘investing’ in a battery pack.

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## Bros

> 

  Obviously this is an automated process from the inverter but what type and is there special software?

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## chrisp

It’s an Enphase micro inverter system (each panel has its own inverter). The inverters talk to a central data logging system called an Envoy (which is wired in to the switchboard) and the software is called Enlighten (which can talk via the web and get the data from a central server provided by Enphase or via wireless directly to the Envoy). This particular system also has the optional data logging on the consumption side as well as the PV. It is in theory all set up to interface in to a battery pack. 
There is (open source?) software on the web that will do something similar for other inverters.

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## Bros

Why did you go that way wouldn't it be a lot more expensive?

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## chrisp

I was mostly after good panels and I liked the idea of using micro inverters. In the end, there was really only a couple of suppliers who had the configuration/brands that I wanted and I ended up with the whole of house data logging as part of the package. It’s actually quite handy and very educational to have the data on hand. It is surprising and pleasing how much load the PV system can support on a sunny day. Expensive - yes, good - yes!

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## Bros

> I was mostly after good panels and I liked the idea of using micro inverters. In the end, there was really only a couple of suppliers who had the configuration/brands that I wanted and I ended up with the whole of house data logging as part of the package. It’s actually quite handy and very educational to have the data on hand. It is surprising and pleasing how much load the PV system can support on a sunny day. Expensive - yes, good - yes!

  I thought as much as the normal systems which have data logging only monitor the solar production but don't monitor the house consumption.

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## chrisp

> I’m in the process of evaluating the idea in installing a battery pack at home. At the moment I’m collecting data on my solar system and on the household energy usage. It’s far too early for me to be able to reliably calaculate the optimum battery size as I haven’t yet collected a full year of data yet. Just for the interested, here is the electricity use and PV output for today...   
> It was a reasonable day for PV output (39.3 kWh generated), and the electricity usuage was lowish (13.6 kWh consumed) however it was mostly before sunup or after sundown (due to night owl offspring!). Over the whole 24 hour period, 8.1 kWh was imported from the grid (about $2.35). Therefore I would have needed a 8.1kWh battery pack to cover the dark periods. I wouldn’t have been able to cycle a battery pack more than once today regardless of its size. 
> I also exported 34 kWh over the same period ($3.75). Even without a battery pack I’m about $1.40 ahead (or about $0.40 ahead after the daily supply charge). 
> The battery pack size calaculation and payback period calculation is actually quite complicated to optimise!  
> Oldsaltoz, I certainly would encourage you to go ahead with the battery pack, but I also want you to be aware of the cost benefits and the payback period. 
> Personally, I’m going to collect more data and time my energy consumption to better utilise the PV before ‘investing’ in a battery pack.

  Just to continue with the cost-benefit calculation and work out the payback period for a battery pack based upon a couple of very woolly assumptions... 
The assumptions: If (and it’s a really big IF) I assume that my PV generation and energy consumption from yesterday is typical for my household, and IF I assume that the optimum battery pack is one that allows full use of self generated energy (i.e. no grid import). 
The battery pack I’d need would be 8.1kWh (let’s call it 8 kWh). Prorating the quote that oldsaltoz had for a 6kWh pack ($12,500) up to 8 kWh would give a cost of approximately $16,600 for the 8 kWh pack. 
I would save 8 kWh x $0.29/kWh/day = $2.32/day from not importing the nighttime energy from the grid. But I’d also forgo 8 kWh x $0.11/kWh/day = $0.88 from the feedin during the day. I would have saved $2.32 - $0.88 = $1.44 per day. 
The payback period for a 8kWh battery pack would be $16,600 / $1.44 = 31 years. 
YMMV

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## chrisp

Maybe this is a more versatile and practical way of adding a battery pack to your house - a battery pack with a car included!  https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...u-money-117189

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## Saltypete

Very effective use of a battery! Still a bit too expensive for me though. I am hanging on to the Holden for a while until the price drops and the range of models increases. I won't be buying another internal combustion car.

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## UseByDate

> Maybe this is a more versatile and practical way of adding a battery pack to your house - a battery pack with a car included!  https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...u-money-117189

  Google V2G https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS0gwC3TRdg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pNbKfXVIeU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es9PjC2xb6A  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kvB6bR_fu0

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## Marc

At this rate, soon it will be cheaper to generate your own electricity with a Honda generator. Wouldn't that be a great achievement? I am "independent" "off the grid" I run my own generator, woohoo! What a success! In fact, I could lobby the government to supply petrol with no excise for the purpose of generating my own electricity. Of course I could also start an distillery and make my own alcohol to run the generator, or even better, run a diesel generator on biodiesel i can make myself. Wow, I am a dynamo of ideas !!! 
I say if someone has a small industry, he could cash in subsidies by employing a few hundred cyclist and sit them on little pedal machines to generate the electricity he needs. Since this is a green scheme and promotes healthy habits, you can tap into a few different sources of subsidies and cheap electricity if you get the government to pay for this people's salaries. Efficiency and economic viability are irrelevant so this is the perfect scheme. 
Another would be to replace diesel powered ferries with large rowing ships like the Roman Galleys and get the passengers to row with no pollution. Taxis can be replaced with Rickshaws and use the cycleways for this purpose, (thank you clever no more). So many possibilities when money is of no concern!

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## UseByDate

> Another would be to replace diesel powered ferries with large rowing ships like the Roman Galleys and get the passengers to row with no pollution. So many possibilities when money is of no concern!

    No oars necessary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Lp-qV9ZJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN-p67JOpdQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epOAE8pudsg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB6rKP34Mtk

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## chrisp

> No oars necessary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6Lp-qV9ZJU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN-p67JOpdQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epOAE8pudsg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB6rKP34Mtk

  How dare they! Using technology that affront’s Marc’s view of the world. They must be anti-capitalist, communistic, non-taxpaying welfare cheats, leftist, greenies who are up to no good!

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## Marc

Orrr yressss zerrro emissions so groood. Costs like 10 ferries and pollutes in some other countries to make it not ours. I lrrrove it.

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## Bedford

> Maybe this is a more versatile and practical way of adding a battery pack to your house - a battery pack with a car included!  https://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/...u-money-117189

  Hi Chris, if every vehicle on the road now was able to change to electric, would there be enough copper laying around or would it have to be mined?

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## DavoSyd

> Hi Chris, if every vehicle on the road now was able to change to electric, would there be enough copper laying around or would it have to be mined?

  what would you need lots of copper for?

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## Bedford

> cars are made of copper?

   

> what would you need lots of copper for?

  I knew I could rely on you Davo.

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## toooldforthis

Tesla battery + solar now "significantly cheaper" than grid power : RenewEconomy   

> In November 2016, our analysis shows that a Tesla Powerwall and a 5kW rooftop solar system could deliver electricity around the same price as grid power. Our latest estimate shows solar and storage is now significantly cheaper.

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## chrisp

> Hi Chris, if every vehicle on the road now was able to change to electric, would there be enough copper laying around or would it have to be mined?

   :Confused:  I suspect that it’d have to be mined. So, what is the point that you wish to make or issue that you want to highlight? I am a little worried that I”m being being led down some argumentative path one step at a time with a ‘got you! at the end!  :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> I suspect that itd have to be mined.

  
Thanks Chris, that's all I wanted to know.

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## Marc

Hi Chris, I found you some laurels to rest on  :Smilie:

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## chrisp

What the hell is going wrong with the world? Even a property developer and a world leading electrics company are getting in to the conspiracy and claiming that they can make a ‘no bills’ house - and they are claiming that it might even be good for the environment! https://www.domain.com.au/news/an-ex...heage&ref=pos1 
What have those lefty, radical, good-for-nothing greenies being putting in the water supply to brainwash those capitalist companies in to trialling such an outrageous idea!

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## chrisp

> Thanks Chris, that's all I wanted to know.

  Are you buying shares in a copper miner?

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## Bedford

> Are you buying shares in a copper miner?

  No, but I've been stockpiling any I come across since my grandfather told me scrap copper was worth five bob (50cents) a pound more than 50 years ago.  
Do you know what's involved in recycling copper (mechanically)?

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## DavoSyd

> I knew I could rely on you Davo.

  What for Bedford?

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## chrisp

> No, but I've been stockpiling any I come across since my grandfather told me scrap copper was worth five bob (50cents) a pound more than 50 years ago.  
> Do you know what's involved in recycling copper (mechanically)?

  I’m not familiar with the mechanical recycling techniques. I have had the opportunity to visit a copper refinery up in Queensland. I thought that Queensland was hot and humid enough, but walking over electrowinning cells in protective clothing is even hotter!

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## Bedford

> Im not familiar with the mechanical recycling techniques. I have had the opportunity to visit a copper refinery up in Queensland. I thought that Queensland was hot and humid enough, but walking over electrowinning cells in protective clothing is even hotter!

  Fair enough. 
Considering electric motors seem to have a longer service life than internal combustion engines, I was wondering if recycling the copper was the best/most economical way to go. 
Surely there is the possibility of simply replacing the bearings on the shaft and installing the motor in a new car. 
It would probably need insulation testing etc, but if built right the first time, should be serviceable many times over.

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## chrisp

> Considering electric motors seem to have a longer service life than internal combustion engines, I was wondering if recycling the copper was the best/most economical way to go. 
> Surely there is the possibility of simply replacing the bearings on the shaft and installing the motor in a new car. 
> It would probably need insulation testing etc, but if built right the first time, should be serviceable many times over.

  That’s an interesting point. Most electric cars will use 3-phase AC motors controlled by a variable frequency inverter. Most of the braking is regenerative, and even the power steering can be done by software (drive one side a little harder than the other if it is front wheel drive). There is very little maintenance to be done at all. About the only ‘maintenance’ item would be brake pads and windscreen wipers. And even the brake pads will get little wear compared to an internal combustion engined car. Most everything else is a ‘wear’ item (replace if it is broken). 
Strangely, I do recall some of the early EVs still had the usual 10,000km service intervals. I couldn’t figure out what the hell they were ‘servicing’!  _You r_ absolutely right about the motors, about the only thing to go wrong is the bearings. Like all 3-phase motors, they are pretty robust and reliable. New bearings should make them as good as new.

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## Bros

> Even a property developer and a world leading electrics company are getting in to the conspiracy and claiming that they can make a ‘no bills’ house - and they are claiming that it might even be good for the environment! https://www.domain.com.au/news/an-ex...heage&ref=pos1

  Of course it is possible but at what capital cost? Didn't Hans Tolstrup get 100 mpg in a car?  
I'm sure if you set your mind to it you could do it easily but it could be an existence rather than living. 
I once worked with a bloke 20 yrs ago who would boast he could lie on $20 a week. He rode a bike and was not backward in using others milk for tea when he had his watermelon for lunch.

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## chrisp

> Hi Chris, I found you some laurels to rest on

  For a moment there, I thought that you were offering to sharing your pot with me.  :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> Most of the braking is regenerative

  I've had a bit to do with Telma Retarders over the years and often wondered if any of the energy could be harnessed? 
There's plenty in a workshop situation that may be easier to adapt for harnessing if it was possible.

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## Marc

> For a moment there, I thought that you were offering to sharing your pot with me.

  If you look closely you will see that those are Bay leaves  (Laurus Nobilis), used in ancient times as a symbol of victory. Since your signature line states you have none to rest on, ...  :Tears:  I thought I give you a bit of a rest.  :Smilie:   
As far as pot, I have plenty and you can have this one.
Regularly used to cook Spaghetti sauce that includes one or two Bay leaves some red wine and ... if you want the recipe I'll post one.  :Smilie:  
Err ... my pot went walkabout. Here is another one.

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## chrisp

> I've had a bit to do with Telma Retarders over the years and often wondered if any of the energy could be harnessed? 
> There's plenty in a workshop situation that may be easier to adapt for harnessing if it was possible.

  i wasn’t aware of Telma Retards - thanks for the tip off. I had a quick look on the web. Quite interesting. 
In the workshop (and I assume mains powered?) I have noticed that there are electronic motor speed controllers (VFD) can be configured to provide braking, and that the braking can be regenerative. i.e. the controller can pump the energy back up the grid. 
I do recall experiments at uni where we had the characterise AC motors and load them up and measure the slip angles up to the point where they desynchronised. The ‘load’ was simply a generator which was putting the energy back in to the same AC supply. It’s kind of strange to see a motor and generator working flat out but hardly drawing any power from the grid!

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## Bros

> I do recall experiments at uni where we had the characterise AC motors and load them up and measure the slip angles up to the point where they desynchronised. The ‘load’ was simply a generator which was putting the energy back in to the same AC supply. It’s kind of strange to see a motor and generator working flat out but hardly drawing any power from the grid!

  So you never achieved the holy grail of perpetual motion

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## Bedford

> In the workshop (and I assume mains powered?)

  Yes, mains powered for the magnets, but this, 2WD Dyno Specifications, should give an indication of what they are retarding.  *DYNO:*  *2WD600**  *2WD1200*  Maximum Rated Power @ 240kph:  850kW (1130hp)  1700kW (2279Hp)  Maximum Rated Torque:  1700Nm (1254Ftlb)  3400Nm (2507Ftlb)                
 Telma Retarder, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FMoUEmSsdE 
They are a retarder not a motor so couldn't be reversed to generate (I guess), just seems a waste, (especially when you get into truck stuff), that may have been able to be stored of fed back in.

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## chrisp

> Yes, mains powered for the magnets, but this, 2WD Dyno Specifications, should give an indication of what they are retarding.  *DYNO:*  *2WD600**  *2WD1200*  Maximum Rated Power @ 240kph:  850kW (1130hp)  1700kW (2279Hp)  Maximum Rated Torque:  1700Nm (1254Ftlb)  3400Nm (2507Ftlb)                
>  Telma Retarder, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FMoUEmSsdE 
> They are a retarder not a motor so couldn't be reversed to generate (I guess), just seems a waste, (especially when you get into truck stuff), that may have been able to be stored of fed back in.

  It does seem like a waste. I have seen water brake dynos in action for testing truck engines after rebuilding. But the dyno was fairly old and probably a little dated technology-wise. 
I had a look on Google as I figured that someone should make a dyno set using a regenative load. I found this site https://powertestdyno.com/choosing-dynamometer/ so regenerative dynos do exist. The quoted website gives a run down on three dyno technologies - water brake, eddy current (like the retarder you quoted) and regenerative. They quote the regenerative as being good for up to 5000hp - and mention power credits for the generated energy. 
For the dyno you mentioned, has it all ready been brought? If so, I wonder if the eddy current ‘retarders’ can be replaced by generators (and suitable controllers)?

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## chrisp

> Regularly used to cook Spaghetti sauce that includes one or two Bay leaves some red wine and ... if you want the recipe I'll post one.  
> Err ... my pot went walkabout. Here is another one.

  I always interested in recipes for spaghetti sauce. If you have any that are special or interesting, please post them up.

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## Bros

> I always interested in recipes for spaghetti sauce. If you have any that are special or interesting, please post them up.

    What! do I have to make up a new thread for cooking?

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## chrisp

> What! do I have to make up a new thread for cooking?

  We”re trying to give you some practice on splitting threads!  :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> It does seem like a waste.

  Yes that's what I thought.   

> I had a look on Google as I figured that someone should make a dyno set using a regenative load. I found this site https://powertestdyno.com/choosing-dynamometer/ so regenerative dynos do exist.

  Well there you go! I couldn't find anything on them.   

> The quoted website gives a run down on three dyno technologies - water brake, eddy current (like the retarder you quoted) and regenerative. They quote the regenerative as being good for up to 5000hp - and mention power credits for the generated energy.

  I suppose you could at least cook spaghetti with the water brake dynos!  :Biggrin:    

> For the dyno you mentioned, has it all ready been brought? If so, I wonder if the eddy current retarders can be replaced by generators (and suitable controllers)?

  It was just from their website as an example of some of the figures they are retarding. 
I think it would depend on the physical size of the generator as to whether it would  fit and line up with the rollers that drive it.

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## Marc

Bedford, it is not like you to call people names like retarded. 
Pasta sauce:
Boil some water in a small pot and put the (Roma) tomato in the boiling water for a few minutes. Pull them out and peel them, cut then in half and take the seeds out.
Now some oil in the pot, two garlic cloves peeled and remove that stupid growth inside them. Can't find decent garlic in Sydney. 
Don't let the garlic burn, add the tomato and cook on low heat. Sauce will go pink and then deep red when it is cooked. Halfway add half a glass of good red wine, two bay leaves, salt and pepper. Tip: don't add your sauce to the pasta, add the pasta to the sauce pot.  :Smilie: 
You can add Oregano or Basil if you like.

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