# Forum More Stuff At the end of the day  Corona Virus

## r3nov8or

Don't know where else to post this, so I'll just leave it here... 
DNA based and no needle  https://www.europeanpharmaceuticalre...-for-covid-19/

----------


## Marc

Sounds promising.

----------


## r3nov8or

Yes, it does

----------


## Bros

The Mods believe it would be helpful to have a topic on the corona virus and its health issues for Australia.  
The origins are for history and is behind us now and not for discussion however we need to look forward. 
We can blame the politicians for some of their short comings which I'm sure they are aware of so as Paul Keating would say "Go to local petshop and the local galah is talking about who to blame" 
So keep it factual no endless block of text or utube videos espousing your personal bias.

----------


## Marc

Oh, the Platonic irony ...  :Rofl5:  
So to NSW and our very own Galah ... today from 5 am ... drum roll ... we can go out for exercise without time limit. 
Whohooo, now that is fantastic!!! an unenforceable and counterproductive rule has been revoked.   
What would be required to strip this clowns from the power to close state borders? 
I have a feeling that Galahdis will fall well before the end of the year. There must be someone still conscious enough in cabinet to realise that they are losing voters at the rate of knots. The next election will be epic, and the minor parties will have a field day 
What did Prankachook say? That the border will remain closed until all the children are vaccinated? So that means never to open again ...
My wife's surgery is vaccinating (adults) at a rate never seen before, almost all Pfizer.
I believe that had we had Pfizer in stock last year, meaning, had the federal government negotiated properly with Pfizer instead of grandstanding, this second wave would have been avoided. Now that Pfizer is available, the number of reluctance is negligible. 
Meantime the Liverpool Hospital is overrun with covid patients. It is impossible to know if this are ordinary admissions that happen to also have the virus or real cases of respiratory illness due to covid. They have cleared out the mental health unit to make more room.

----------


## Bros

Catching up on John Campbell's Utube videos and there seem to be a different way of thinking in UK and US on going forward. 
The herd immunity is now dead and it seems to be the case that you will end up with it sooner or later and if you are vaccinated it will boost your protection level without the endless use of booster shots. 
Another point coming up is the reduction in testing and only testing those who go into hospital with Germany stopping mass testing in October. 
I hear this not testing of the population being whispered in Australia but no one seems to own this proposition.

----------


## johnc

> Catching up on John Campbell's Utube videos and there seem to be a different way of thinking in UK and US on going forward. 
> The herd immunity is now dead and it seems to be the case that you will end up with it sooner or later and if you are vaccinated it will boost your protection level without the endless use of booster shots. 
> Another point coming up is the reduction in testing and only testing those who go into hospital with Germany stopping mass testing in October. 
> I hear this not testing of the population being whispered in Australia but no one seems to own this proposition.

  The discussion at the political end seemed to have had a shift over the month of August from a starting point of containment and now one of vaccination, the delta strain without doubt being the cause. While our leaders remain fractious we are seeing the Federals making greater efforts to bring in sufficient doses of vaccine, vaccination centers are able to pump through good numbers and you actually feel there is a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel. 
You can see Australians are struggling with Covid and especially lockdowns, lets hope we can get to 90% coverage for over 16's. Even then when Covid becomes a disease for the unvaccinated it would seem we will remain in a race to ensure we get booster shots. 
On the upside NSW have kept Covid out of aged care with the odd exception, the death rate should remain on the low side with treatments also improving.  
I'd like to know how many Australians have stocked up on horse paste, bleach and UV probes to treat this thing at home.

----------


## METRIX

> The Mods believe it would be helpful to have a topic on the corona virus and its health issues for Australia.  
> The origins are for history and is behind us now and not for discussion however we need to look forward. 
> We can blame the politicians for some of their short comings which I'm sure they are aware of so as Paul Keating would say "Go to local petshop and the local galah is talking about who to blame" 
> So keep it factual no endless block of text or utube videos espousing your personal bias.

  
Good luck, this thread will very quickly go down the same rabbit hole as the last one of personal bias, gov't hatred and anti everything just like the last one did.  
NSW is dumping the extensive contact tracing as it's become too hard to keep up with the current numbers, they are adopting direct SMS for any covid exposure sites, this relies on the public using the QR code system.
As we have seen the truckies are not all using the QR system and spreading covid interstate, so we will see how it goes. 
This week will be my second shot, so to those that believe it's all a big hoax, gov't control, and anti-vax I wish you luck. 
NSW Health has said they expect hospitalisation numbers to peak around 19th September. 
Current take-up of vaccine is getting higher every day. 
I did see the heartless QLD premier closed the borders and quarantine to her own people who got caught out and were not allowed back over the border even though they lived there.
But the football and cricket players and families were welcomed in, that says it all about where her priority lies, and it's not with the people who voted her in. 
Below is a good site if you love stats.  https://covidlive.com.au/report/vaccinations  Ed the link is far better than the screen dump.

----------


## Bros

> Good luck, this thread will very quickly go down the same rabbit hole as the last one of personal bias, gov't hatred and anti everything just like the last one did.

  I hope not as some posters will have to lift their game and not rely on the past but where we are going in the futire.    

> NSW is dumping the extensive contact tracing as it's become too hard to keep up with the current numbers, they are adopting direct SMS for any covid exposure sites, this relies on the public using the QR code system.
> As we have seen the truckies are not all using the QR system and spreading covid interstate, so we will see how it goes.

  I see it being used a lot up here and at time been reminded if I have logged in (which I have)   

> This week will be my second shot, so to those that believe it's all a big hoax, gov't control, and anti-vax I wish you luck.

    As long as you realise you will still get it and can spread it but from what I have read at a lower rate.     

> But the football and cricket players and families were welcomed in, that says it all about where her priority lies, and it's not with the people who voted her in.

  I too was surprised as to how the wives and girlfrends were essential to a football game I didn't think cricket had started yet. 
Here is another calculator, seems like computer programmers being locked down have found quirky things to do with their spare time. https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/...ovid-19-canada

----------


## phild01

> I too was surprised as to how the wives and girlfrends were essential to a football game I didn't think cricket had started yet.

  You know how the players are always out on the look and getting into trouble, the women are probably there to keep them in check.

----------


## METRIX

> As long as you realise you will still get it and can spread it but from what I have read at a lower rate.

   Yep I realise that, but according to the data if you do get it (which I have no intentions of getting it) your chances of ending up in hospital or death are dramatically decreased
It will be no different to the yearly flu.

----------


## intertd6

In the UK anyone can go into a chemist and get a Covid rapid antigen test kit for free.
inter

----------


## Bros

> In the UK anyone can go into a chemist and get a Covid rapid antigen test kit for free.
> inter

  If my memory serves me correctly in they wanted to use that in Australia but the pathologist union objected to it as it wasn't 100% accurate

----------


## Bart1080

> https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/...ovid-19-canada

  That's an interesting little site.
Scrolling through US, UK...easy to see when they started to roll out the vax and the slowing of the death rate 
If you look at South Africa, HIV and influenza are off the charts as the No:1 cause of death
Fiji is an interesting one were most parts of the world (excluding COVID) its normally heart disease but FiJi is Diabetes. 
And India, despite 400k covid deaths, ~12million deaths all up over the last 18 months with heart disease at 2.7million!
and of course he whose name shall not be spoken, has nailed covid as the stats for this hasnt moved since May 2020!!  :Smilie:

----------


## Marc

> If my memory serves me correctly in they wanted to use that in Australia but the pathologist union objected to it as it wasn't 100% accurate

  The only thing they object to is that it is cheap and they get nothing as opposed to $120 per test, that by the way dishes out 20+ false positive. 
Of course false positives is no problem, it adds to the catastrophists narrative.

----------


## METRIX

> That's an interesting little site.
> Scrolling through US, UK...easy to see when they started to roll out the vax and the slowing of the death rate 
> If you look at South Africa, HIV and influenza are off the charts as the No:1 cause of death
> Fiji is an interesting one were most parts of the world (excluding COVID) its normally heart disease but FiJi is Diabetes. 
> And India, despite 400k covid deaths, ~12million deaths all up over the last 18 months with heart disease at 2.7million!
> and of course he whose name shall not be spoken, has nailed covid as the stats for this hasnt moved since May 2020!!

  France is interesting

----------


## Bros

> The only thing they object to is that it is cheap and they get nothing as opposed to $120 per test,

  Are you guessing or is that the cost of a test?

----------


## Marc

THere has been profiteering from different lab that charged up to $200 at the peak of the histeria. Down to 120 and 100 now.

----------


## Bros

> THere has been profiteering from different lab that charged up to $200 at the peak of the histeria. Down to 120 and 100 now.

  I've heard the cost of vaccines but I have never heard to cost of testing, now I know.

----------


## Marc

Absurd that testing that is done in such a large scale to 95%+ asymptomatics, costs 5 to 10 times what the vaccine costs. 
Explains why bill gates bought a company that makes test.
Like I said somewhere else ... the conflict is not left right. Rather it is top down.
PS
Actually 99+%  https://covidlive.com.au/report/dail...-test-rate/nsw

----------


## METRIX

> Another point coming up is the reduction in testing and only testing those who go into hospital with Germany stopping mass testing in October.

  https://www.france24.com/en/europe/2...st-vaccination

----------


## intertd6

> If my memory serves me correctly in they wanted to use that in Australia but the pathologist union objected to it as it wasn't 100% accurate

   The idea is to self isolate if the test is positive, when the bulk of the population is vaccinated it slows the spread, there the death rates are down to ordinary flu levels now & the unvaccinated are the victims of it.
inter

----------


## METRIX

So WA Premier is trying to backflip on the 70 and 80% figures agreed upon and now wants 90% before opening up, perhaps this is why the rollout of vaccines in WA is running at a trickle, drag it out as long as you can. 
QLD is up to her old shock tactics and has said she wont open the borders until under 12's are vaccinated, well I guess that means she will never open, as there is no vaccine for children. 
They are saying double vaccinated NSW residents will most likely be able to fly overseas before being able to go to QLD or WA

----------


## johnc

There is some research being done for under 12's, probably only a matter of time before one of the vaccines is listed as suitable. Yes, WA and Qld do seem to be playing hard ball, or dumb balls, hard to tell which.

----------


## pharmaboy2

> There is some research being done for under 12's, probably only a matter of time before one of the vaccines is listed as suitable. Yes, WA and Qld do seem to be playing hard ball, or dumb balls, hard to tell which.

  The JCVI seemed not to support even young teenagers in their statement last week 
" Prof Wei Shen Lim, chairman of Covid immunisation for the JCVI said it was "taking a precautionary approach"."The margin of benefit is considered too small to support universal Covid-19 vaccination for this age group at this time.   "The committee will continue to review safety data as they emerge," he added.   Paediatricians say that healthy children with Covid end up in intensive care at a rate of two in one million, but this rises to 100 in one million for children with certain health problems.   As a result, the JCVI's advice is that a larger group of at-risk children aged 12 to 15 should be offered a vaccine.   They include children with the following conditions:    blood cancerssickle cell diseasetype 1 diabetescongenital heart disease    Children with poorly-controlled asthma and other respiratory conditions"  https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58438669 
These sorts of ethical questions are likely to mean that herd immunity is impossible - AP will be opening up without children because it seems very unlikely that ATAGI will be the aggressive one

----------


## ForeverYoung

> So WA Premier is trying to backflip on the 70 and 80% figures agreed upon and now wants 90% before opening up, perhaps this is why the rollout of vaccines in WA is running at a trickle, drag it out as long as you can. 
> QLD is up to her old shock tactics and has said she wont open the borders until under 12's are vaccinated, well I guess that means she will never open, as there is no vaccine for children. 
> They are saying double vaccinated NSW residents will most likely be able to fly overseas before being able to go to QLD or WA

  Politicians gonna politic.
It is what they do.
McGowan has been lucky so far, but his arrogance (long held) will show him up eventually.
WA Health is a mess and won't cope with any covid. 
But the vaccine roll out is slow because of supply: NSW got 45 per cent of the Pfizer vaccines allocated to GPs last month, data shows - ABC News
Because politicians gonna politic (Scomo said it was to be distributed based on population ratios).
And because of the lack of threat is allowing some to sit back and wait. States had ramp up in vaccination rates only when they were under covid threat - humans are gonna human.

----------


## ForeverYoung

Just add it regard to 70%, 80%, 90% debate.
In Oz this is measured, usually, as a % of those eligible not as % of population. Eligible has moved as the lower age rangebound has dropped - even our politicians should be able to work that out, but I digress. From memory 80% vaccinated of the eligible equated to around 56% of the population. 
This is interesting from Singapore and probably shows what living with covid will look like.  

> The nation's vaccination rate has reached a new milestone, with over 80 per cent *of the population* fully vaccinated as at end-August.

  Tracking Singapore's Covid-19 vaccination progress | The Straits Times   

> Singapore will expand its testing regime more aggressively to keep the Covid-19 situation under control, as the number of new infections last week doubled to more than 1,200 - up from around 600 cases the week before.

  S'pore rolls out measures to slow down spread of Covid-19 community cases, Health News & Top Stories - The Straits Times 
Some more here: Singapore facing increasing likelihood of 'exponential rise' in COVID-19 cases, quick action needed: MOH - CNA (channelnewsasia.com)

----------


## Uncle Bob

> But the vaccine roll out is slow because of supply: NSW got 45 per cent of the Pfizer vaccines allocated to GPs last month, data shows - ABC News

  I think that they have that part right, got to tackle the out of control states first (shakes fist at NSW gov), otherwise their already overflowing hospitals will be a total mess.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> I think that they have that part right, got to tackle the out of control states first (shakes fist at NSW gov), otherwise their already overflowing hospitals will be a total mess.

  Agree.
But it is also valid when other States say they have supply issues rather than people saying it is all vax hesitancy..

----------


## Bros

> S'pore rolls out measures to slow down spread of Covid-19 community cases, Health News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

   Looks like death by booster.

----------


## Bros

> Yes, WA and Qld do seem to be playing hard ball,

  The last state election of QLD and WA showed them they are on a winner but for how long is the question.

----------


## phild01

I find it extraordinary other states are grumbling about NSW getting more than their fare share of Pfizer. Perhaps they should consider that the extra share means less chance of Delta leaking into their states. If another state had what NSW is going through and NSW was free of the outbreak then I would not begrudge them getting more than a fare share. If Victoria goes bad like NSW then QLD, WA and co should relinquish their share to Vic and I expect that could be soon seeing how things are going there.

----------


## METRIX

> Politicians gonna politic.
> It is what they do.
> McGowan has been lucky so far, but his arrogance (long held) will show him up eventually.
> WA Health is a mess and won't cope with any covid. 
> But the vaccine roll out is slow because of supply: NSW got 45 per cent of the Pfizer vaccines allocated to GPs last month, data shows - ABC News
> Because politicians gonna politic (Scomo said it was to be distributed based on population ratios).
> And because of the lack of threat is allowing some to sit back and wait. States had ramp up in vaccination rates only when they were under covid threat - humans are gonna human.

  I have heard from a few sources WA and QLD health system is in a mess, and won't cope with large hospitalisations let alone moderate ICU and this is the real reason why they have both played lockdown hardball from the beginning, as a major outbreak will show how inadequate the systems are. 
Currently there are around 1152 in hospital with covid related complications and 192 in ICU, NSW health has said they are geared up to handle over 1500 in ICU if required, not sure of how many non ICU they can handle, but they have assured it won't be like other countries that you couldn't even get admitted to hospital, so you just died on the footpath. 
The concern is what about the regular daily visitors to ICU that are not covid related, such as heart attack etc if the predictions are right for peaking in a few weeks in NSW. 
I understand it would be great to have no covid in any state and why these states would not want to open up, unfortunately you cannot lock out forever its just not economically viable for the entire Australia to continue like that. 
Of course the bulk of perceived "better" vaccines will be going to NSW and VIC currently, not only because of the larger population numbers but because that's where they are required at the moment, that's understandable. 
Does it have anything to do with politics where they go, I'm sure it does, Does premier arrogance play a part, probably a factor, I don't have a problem where they go.
If NSW was fine and VIC was doing it tough again I wouldn't have a problem if vaccines were redirected to them as, same goes for any state, after all we are all Australians, if one part of Australia is in need then they should be prioritised,  
Astra Zeneca has been available in large quantities in all states for a long time, so you can't blame not having access to large amounts of Pfizer a reason for slow roll out.
It's just people don't want it because nanna on Facebook told them it's no good, since when did the world convert from medical advice given by professionals to nobody's on Facebook and Youtube being the medical experts. 
Even though AZ has proved itself more than effective in mass vaccinations throughout Europe / UK.
I guess it's like most stuff these days, people can't function unless someone on Facebook or Youtube tells them how to.

----------


## Bart1080

> Currently there are around 1152 in hospital with covid related complications and 192 in ICU, NSW health has said they are geared up to handle over 1500 in ICU if required, not sure of how many non ICU they can handle, but they have assured it won't be like other countries that you couldn't even get admitted to hospital, so you just died on the footpath.

  ...The state premier has severely miss-judged the situation and is laughable at the constant positive spin on the daily updates and avoidance of questions.  Its interesting I hear of burnout as the ICU medical staff constantly doing 12+ hour shifts at some of these hospitals.   

> Astra Zeneca has been available in large quantities in all states for a long time, so you can't blame not having access to large amounts of Pfizer a reason for slow roll out.
> It's just people don't want it because nanna on Facebook told them it's no good, since when did the world convert from medical advice given by professionals to nobody's on Facebook and Youtube being the medical experts.
> Even though AZ has proved itself more than effective in mass vaccinations throughout Europe / UK..

  Yes off for my final Astra on Thursday and very happy to get it.  People miss the point and will scream blue murder the gov has failed to provide any vax when there is a perfectly good one available....and has proven itself in Europe just as good as any other (on balance).

----------


## phild01

> when there is a perfectly good one available....and has proven itself in Europe just as good as any other (on balance).

   AZ is not perfect when you compare the deaths it has caused in healthy people that a mRNA would not have. And that is not a _facebook_ _nanna_  fact. RACGP - Another death linked to AstraZeneca

----------


## Marc

No vaccine is perfect. Most if not all vaccine have a dirty history that is dutifully suppressed "for the common good" sic
Vaxzevra vs Comirnati is a dumb debate, due to the unreliable incomplete and biased data available.  
If we can't even rely on the numbers of death caused by the virus, due to political and commercial interest that manage to distort information, what chances has Joe Blow to make an informed choice? 
Answer: zero. 
And nanna on facebook? Actually may be more reliable than public health

----------


## METRIX

> AZ is not perfect when you compare the deaths it has caused in healthy people that a mRNA would not have. And that is not a _facebook_ _nanna_  fact. RACGP - Another death linked to AstraZeneca

  Your argument is flawed and is why things turn into a mess, What is perfect ?, there isn't one ting in life that's perfect, least of all medications / vaccines, people die every day from medical procedures / medications, car accidents and many more circumstances.
One of my mates went to hospital for a simple procedure, there was complications during the surgery caused by an unknown illness he passed away and could not be revived. 
Avoiding a particular vaccine because of scaremongering by Facebook / YouTube non-medical experts, then dying from Covid complications has cause far more deaths than the AZ vaccine. 
The majority of these deaths could have been avoided if people took the risk to their health as serious as they believe the information promoted by non medical Facebook / YouTube "experts" who will skew the figures to benefit their argument. 
Things need to be put into perspective, as of 2nd September there has been 9 deaths in AU related to AZ complications, that is from over 10 Million doses of AZ administered in Australia.
Compare that to the current outbreak in Sydney, just on the 6th September in NSW there was 8 covid related deaths, these probably could have all been avoided if they were all double vaccinated, by AZ, Pfizer or whatever, a vaccine is a vaccine. 
Everything around this whole Vaccine / Covid outbreak is a joke, because there are so many experts out there promoting their biased views towards their hatred of gov't or being told what to do, or don't force me to do this or that, it's all to suit their own skewed views of life.
The real facts get lost in all the online crap being promoted by these left or right or centre or whatever it make no difference where they are coming from they all have the same agenda and that is their "own" agenda. 
Unfortunately perfectly sensible people get caught up because they live their life via Facebook / YouTube news / garbage, and Mary said that she saw an article posted by Bob from an expert overseas that said this was a problem, please share this information as it's critical, lets have a protest blah blah blah.
All this crap results in people making a bad decision that could ultimately cost them their life. 
As they say you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, the same goes here, if someone is happy to wait it out for something Mary said is better then that's your choice, you risk your life based on your own belief.

----------


## phild01

> Your argument is flawed and is why things turn into a mess, What is perfect ?, there isn't one ting in life that's perfect, least of all medications / vaccines, people die every day from medical procedures / medications, car accidents and many more circumstances.
> One of my mates went to hospital for a simple procedure, there was complications during the surgery caused by an unknown illness he passed away and could not be revived.

  You miss the point and of course everything does carry a risk which doesn't mean we need to compound risks. It is not all about facebook crap (I don't use facebook) but everything to do with the studies. Sure, any vaccine in a crisis but people have been hanging on for a safer vaccine while it was steady going. If I was in WA I too would still be waiting for Pfizer or Moderna simply because they are the better vaccine. 
Clearly some people don't really care about statistical death because it is just a number but had those people who died from AZ had a choice of vaccine then they would have likely chosen mRNA and be alive today. In Australia many of us didn't have a choice because Scotty thought he knew better and went cheap. Keep in mind that during a crisis, AZ protection isn't that good considering the optimum time between jabs. Essentially while the going is good why take a chance with a riskier vaccine and when the going is in crisis, AZ takes too long to be properly effective.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> ...
> Currently there are around 1152 in hospital with covid related complications and 192 in ICU, NSW health has said they are geared up to handle over 1500 in ICU if required, not sure of how many non ICU they can handle, but they have assured it won't be like other countries that you couldn't even get admitted to hospital, so you just died on the footpath.

  Saw an article the other day about NSW '_hospital at home_' protocol. Only a third of covid cases being treated at hospital, the others at home (nurse visits, oxygen etc).
Made sense why I was seeing _died at home_ statements.
The article was a fact check on GB saying they had kept hospitalisations at ~5%, she wasn't count the _hospital at home_ category which took it to over 12% if I recall correctly.   

> ...
> Astra Zeneca has been available in large quantities in all states for a long time, so you can't blame not having access to large amounts of Pfizer a reason for slow roll out.

  good point.   

> It's just people don't want it because nanna on Facebook told them it's no good, since when did the world convert from medical advice given by professionals to nobody's on Facebook and Youtube being the medical experts....

     

> No vaccine is perfect. Most if not all vaccine have a dirty history that is dutifully suppressed "for the common good" sic
> Vaxzevra vs Comirnati is a dumb debate, due to the unreliable incomplete and biased data available.  
> If we can't even rely on the numbers of death caused by the virus, due to political and commercial interest that manage to distort information, what chances has Joe Blow to make an informed choice? 
> Answer: zero. 
> And nanna on facebook? Actually may be more reliable than public health

  Have to agree with that. 
Politicians are politicking while hiding behind the _medical experts made me do it_.

----------


## Bros

> Yes off for my final Astra on Thursday and very happy to get it.

  How long did you wait between injections?

----------


## Bros

> Even though AZ has proved itself more than effective in mass vaccinations throughout Europe / UK.
> I guess it's like most stuff these days, people can't function unless someone on Facebook or Youtube tells them how to.

  But you never go AZ so you would be biased. 
I would have liked to get the Pfizer but I had to settle for the second best. Now before I am taken to task the Pfizer has a very good advantage in that immunity come quick not like the AZ which takes about 4 mths far inferior to the Pfizer of 3 to 4 weeks. 
I know the health people in NSW are saying get your AZ after a month but doing that the immune effectiveness is quite low, it is just a numbers game to get to the magic 70% or 80%.

----------


## Uncle Bob

I've had both my Pfizer shots now, 3 weeks between both. The last one was at the AIS. I hope they didn't get the performance enhancing drugs mixed up with the vaccince  :Biggrin:

----------


## Bedford

I have to wait for the Pfizer which is supposedly available here at the end of the month. 
Due to a one in a million re-action to medication I was given after a heart attack 20 years ago, I ended up with Necrotizing Vasculitis 
There have been some links to Vasculitis from AstraZeneca and neither the quack or I want to go back through that again, it's not a good look.

----------


## Moondog55

Smallpox before Jenner?
The live virus method was known to kill many but the alternative was almost certain death if the disease was caught without being immunised.
I'm not that good with numbers but even I can tell the difference between the odds of a million to one or greater risk of dieing from a Covid vaccination and the one in "whatever" of being dead from the disease

----------


## Marc

It's Pfizer for you Bedford.
Meantime, take plenty vitamin D and Zinc. And don't worry about the naysayer that you can "overdose" on D. 
Very hard to do  :Smilie:

----------


## Bart1080

> How long did you wait between injections?

  Its 12 weeks since I had my first shot.

----------


## Bros

> The last one was at the AIS. I hope they didn't get the performance enhancing drugs mixed up with the vaccince

  You can do the Lance Armstrong bit and deny everything.

----------


## Moondog55

> You can do the Lance Armstrong bit and deny everything.

  Just take the money and run, run, run.

----------


## Bros

> Its 12 weeks since I had my first shot.

  I'll be doing the same until then I will just take a few precautions.

----------


## phild01

I'm at 6 weeks and twice they have tried to get me back or my second, not yet. I'd be done and dusted with Pfizer.

----------


## UseByDate

> I'm at 6 weeks and twice they have tried to get me back or my second, not yet. I'd be done and dusted with Pfizer.

  Do you know the overall efficacy if you use two different vaccines?

----------


## phild01

> Do you know the overall efficacy if you use two different vaccines?

  I would be happy to take Pfizer as a 2nd shot but I doubt that option will be availed to us for a very long time. I am unaware of any definite data showing it to be the best outcome though it is suspected so.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> I'm at 6 weeks and twice they have tried to get me back or my second, not yet. I'd be done and dusted with Pfizer.

  In the UK  

> Between 400,000 and 600,000 people eligible for a second AstraZeneca dose have yet to come forward, analysis suggests.

  Up to 600,000 Britons feared to have missed second AstraZeneca dose | The Independent 
400k if they waited 12 weeks - They didn't turn up
600k if they had brought it forward to 8 weeks - the new UK recommendation I think. 
By my  rough calculations about 1.6% didn't want the 2nd jab.
And no they didn't die from clots.
The in depth media analyses says they are _too busy_ - enjoying Freedom Days? 
If I had to have a guess I would say it might be because they had an adverse reaction to the first jab, or knew someone who did...
Of course we are not allowed to talk about this because it might interfere with the get the jab message. I get that.
Meanwhile those who have had a bad long term reaction are not getting much support. 
This report from our TGA says 2.9 per 1,000 adverse reactions to vaccines: COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 02-09-2021 | Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA)
And no, I don't think it means sore arm/chills/fever first few days. 
Small percentage.
Much smaller than the risk of complications from covid.

----------


## METRIX

> But you never go AZ so you would be biased. 
> I would have liked to get the Pfizer but I had to settle for the second best. Now before I am taken to task the Pfizer has a very good advantage in that immunity come quick not like the AZ which takes about 4 mths far inferior to the Pfizer of 3 to 4 weeks. 
> I know the health people in NSW are saying get your AZ after a month but doing that the immune effectiveness is quite low, it is just a numbers game to get to the magic 70% or 80%.

  I don't understand why you are saying AZ is second best, it has proved to be very effective and has possibly already saved millions of people from dying, 4 months who says this ? Facebook, Youtube. 
What I had has nothing to do with my response, I got the Pfizer as that's what was available to me in the quickest time when I went searching. 
I was hesitant about saying which one I received in the previously (now closed) corona topic on here when you asked, because I knew you or someone else would twist it to say well why didn't you get AZ.
I don't have to explain to anyone why I got what I did, but it seems important to some, as they got ripped off and had to go for second best. 
I was offered the Pfizer as you can get the second dose quicker, and I required full vaccination for work. 
If someone doesn't work on multiple sites, and sit's at home all day rarely going outside the house then you can afford to wait 4 weeks or 12 weeks if you think 12 is best, if you know it takes 4 months to get the best coverage, then you should have got the first dose a lot sooner so you could wait 4 months to get the second one.
Nobody is stopping you from getting the second vaccine at 12 weeks if you think that's best for you, I don't imagine someone is going to come banging on your door at 4 weeks and force a needle into you, just cancel the 4 week booking and rebook close to the 12 week period if you want, it's your choice. 
I don't have that luxury as I am not in a LGA of concern and have been working for 95% since lockdowns started nearly 2 years ago.
I have to on occasions visit LGA of concern, so I don't want to take the risk of choosing my own timeframe based on what some Youtube medical expert says, I go on the advice from a qualified medical person, ie a Doctor. 
Of course it's a numbers game, but not the numbers game that has been referred to on here previously.
NSW and VIC to a lesser degree need to get as many double vaccinated ASAP, there is nothing wrong with that when peoples lives are at risk, the more people you have double vaccinate the less chances of people getting very sick or potentially dying. 
Why would you deny people having a second vaccine at 4 weeks if the manufacturer states this if fine, and why wait 3 months when outbreaks are happening all around you in a LGA of concern, that make no sense. 
It's not the people of NSW Health saying to get the second dose at 4 weeks it's the manufacturers, being Astra Zeneca, NSW health is only relaying what the manufacturer recommends as a minimum, if NSW health were administering second vaccine at two weeks then there would be a reason to question it.
Below is a link to AZ documentation for the VAXZEVRIA (formally known as Covid-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca). 
It clearly states on page 2 point 4.2 the second dose should be administered between 4 and 12 weeks, it doesn't say don't administer it until 12 weeks.
If they say 4 weeks is the minimum then 4 weeks is the minimum, no matter what so called online experts think, or have said should be done on this website or that website, that's irrelevant as they didn't make the vaccine. 
Possibly there is longer protection from extending the second dose, from what I have read you need the second dose to get the higher immunity from any of the vaccines except the Johnson & Johnson version.
This is why people who are dying in hospital are either firstly not vaccinated, secondly only first dose vaccinated, and finally very rarely someone has died with two doses, but it can still happen if you have underlying health problem causing complications. 
If you want to read what the manufacture states for their product then go to the below link directly to AZ Australia, choose the Vaxzevria link.
This was the problem with the previous covid topic on here, and is exactly why this thread will go down the same path, because the same people are saying the same stuff, it's only a matter of time before it ends up in the same gov't hatred, personal bias, personal agenda he said she said as the last thread. 
A few were pushing their own agenda based on some information they read somewhere in a obscure study that they hooked onto a key word that must be true because it says so in the internet or guessing what they think is the reason or not.
This thread is better to be kept to the facts, not guessing, hearsay or what someone likes or does not like, when peoples lives are at risk you do what's got to be done to avoid your family or friends getting very sick or potentially dying.  https://www.astrazeneca.com.au/medic...formation.html

----------


## phild01

Metrix, I truly believe you miss what is obvious in published data. AZ has weak protection after the first dose. After 4 weeks the second jab improves your protection but nowhere near that of mRNA given after 4 weeks. It only gains traction the longer you wait to 12 weeks. With the ideal wait time of 12 weeks it nearly has the same protection level as mRNA, not quite though. If you had your second shot of Pfizer after 8 weeks, your protection level would have been better too.
The reason it has been reduced to 4 weeks is it might just be enough to keep you away from hospital and death but you are still vulnerable to the virus and it's aftereffects  more so than mRNA vaccines.
I'd be happy to take it after  4 weeks if I knew I could get a booster after 12weeks but that is not going to happen. My protection level until a booster becomes available will likely be very little, review the historical data that supports the longer wait time.

----------


## Bros

> I don't understand why you are saying AZ is second best, it has proved to be very effective and has possibly already saved millions of people from dying, 4 months who says this ?

  No Lancet   

> In the participants who received two standard doses, after the second dose, efficacy was higher in those with a longer prime-boost interval (vaccine efficacy 81·3% [95% CI 60·3–91·2] at ≥12 weeks) than in those with a short interval (vaccine efficacy 55·1% [33·0–69·9] at <6 weeks). These observations are supported by immunogenicity data that showed binding antibody responses more than two-fold higher after an interval of 12 or more weeks compared with an interval of less than 6 weeks in those who were aged 18–55 years (GMR 2·32 [2·01–2·68]).

   

> What I had has nothing to do with my response, I got the Pfizer as that's what was available to me in the quickest time when I went searching.

  A lot as you shouldn't throw stones in a glasshoues. If I got a good deal and you did the same I would be preaching similar.
If you read the press not Facebook or any other you will find with very little exception if two injections were put in front of people the overwhelming would take Pfizer and I have said my reasons why so no use repeating them. 
The link you gave is an Australian one the one I am quoting from is the Lancet in the country where the vaccine was developed, Australia was just given the recipe and I would expect it is under a licensing agreement at cost of?   

> I was hesitant about saying which one I received in the previously (now closed) corona topic on here when you asked, because I knew you or someone else would twist it to say well why didn't you get AZ.
> I don't have to explain to anyone why I got what I did, but it seems important to some, as they got ripped off and had to go for second best.

  No you don't but you should be careful how you lecture others.    

> then you should have got the first dose a lot sooner so you could wait 4 months to get the second one.

  That's hitting below the belt as I was medically advised to wait due to a medical condition and I only got clearance 6 weeks ago,   https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...432-3/fulltext

----------


## METRIX

> ...The state premier has severely miss-judged the situation and is laughable at the constant positive spin on the daily updates and avoidance of questions.  Its interesting I hear of burnout as the ICU medical staff constantly doing 12+ hour shifts at some of these hospitals.

  So what would you prefer she say, your all going to die, don't go outside the house unless you are in a protective bubble, don't breath any air outside the front door, or scare the public to death like they do in QLD, there is nothing to be achieved with doing that except fulfilling your own ego.
What do you expect them to have done, physically go around and screw shut your front door when the outbreak was expanding like the do in China, I think it got to a stage where they knew it was too hard to control in those areas of Sydney. 
The areas of Sydney that have the current outbreaks are areas of high density living, multiple families in one residence, close nit communities, once it got into these areas there was no way you were ever going to stop something like Delta with it's higher infection rate.
All you could do is do the best to isolate these areas, and get the people in these areas vaccinated ASAP. 
Haven't we all heard enough about the doom and gloom of Covid for the last two years, it's about time someone is looking to the positives that will be had soon when vaccination rates go up and things can start to get back to some normality.
What questions is she avoiding, the same questions the media has been hounding them about every day, it's all a bit boring now listening to the media say the same rubbish every day, how many times can you ask the same stupid question, didn't you understand the answer the first 40 times it was asked. 
Mental health is a huge problem with all this constant bombardment of doom and gloom, why make it any worse for the people struggling every day to live their life.
Give people something to look forward to instead of making them fear leaving the house, or heaven forbid actually go closer than 1.5m to another human being. 
I'm not talking about giving them 3 hours of exercise instead of one, I'm talking about the freedom to go out and enjoy a beer at the pub with your mates, go to a restaurant with your partner and kids, have a wedding where you can invite 500 people, go and sit in the park and have a picnic, go to the beach and sit on the sand all day with the kids, the normal everyday things we all used to be able to do, why not promote the positive side (if there is one) and get people looking forward to getting back their lives. 
And put some hope in peoples lives that if they just do a simple thing like get a vaccination it will benefit everyone and things will get back to somewhat what they were. 
This appears to be quite the opposite to Vic, which seems to very draconian with multiple heavy lockdowns, in NSW even with the current LGA of concern and numbers in the 1200 per day,  Bunnings has now opened up all stores to the general public again that are not in the LGA.
Any stores in the LGA are Trade only, they only closed all stores to the general public for a few weeks. 
I personally am sick and tired of the media constantly beating up anything to do with Covid, it's all about headlines to them, they don't give a hoot about the personal tragedies and suffering people are going through, they just twist the story to "shock" the public and make them come back for more devastating news, it's sickening. 
Do you think Victoria has done any better ?, Melbourne is set to take take gold medal for the most days spent in harsh lockdown in the entire world, that hasn't accounted for much as cases are steadily rising again and are on track to equal NSW very soon, what has it all achieved.
Mass hatred for the gov't, mental illness going through the roof, most amount of covid deaths of any state in Australia, these sorts of records are nothing to be proud of.    

> People miss the point and will scream blue murder the gov has failed to provide any vax when there is a perfectly good one available....and has proven itself in Europe just as good as any other (on balance).

  One of the first sensible comments I have read on here

----------


## phild01

> _when there is a perfectly good one available_

  Again, no! It will do in time of emergency but it will be great to see the last of it.

----------


## John2b

> One of the first sensible comments I have read on here

  ... but a nanosecond later ...

----------


## John2b

So we're all told when the population gets to 70-80% vaccination, we can get back to normal. Like Israel at ~ 80% of over 12 year olds fully vaccinated, except that 'normal' is another wave of covid cases and deaths...   https://www.worldometers.info/corona...ountry/israel/

----------


## Marc

> I'm at 6 weeks and twice they have tried to get me back or my second, not yet. I'd be done and dusted with Pfizer.

  You are trying to extend the time between shots?

----------


## phild01

> You are trying to extend the time between shots?

  Yes, for as long as I feel safe, delaying it for up to 12 weeks.

----------


## METRIX

> No Lancet   
> That's hitting below the belt as I was medically advised to wait due to a medical condition and I only got clearance 6 weeks ago,

  There's no hitting below the belt, you are reading something that you want to read, if you have a medical condition that AZ may be high risk then why didn't your doctor prescribe Pfizer if it's the safer alternative.
IMO you should be on a priority to have Pfizer if there is a concern about taking AZ, or if getting protected as quickly as possible is the priority, you are in QLD so you have nothing to worry about unlike if you were in NSW and VIC. 
Anyway I have said enough on here about Covid, I got my "good deal" as you refer to it, which is exactly why I said I didn't want to tell anyone here what vaccine I got as it was bound to be used against me.
Which is exactly why you asked the question, and I fell for it, yes that's my fault for getting Pfizer, I was the lucky one of 5 who got the Wonka ticket, or was I ?    
I know plenty of people who chose the AZ, why because they thought it was the right thing to do for their own and their family's protection, but overwhelmingly because they stopped listening to the media and made a decision themselves.
I also know plenty who have had Pfizer, nobody really cares what brand or why you had what you got, nobody I know has said you got lucky I got ripped off, they are all glad they got a vaccine no matter what coloured label it had. 
Covid discussions and theories have consumed so many peoples lives to the point they are making themselves sick worrying about it.
The media is to blame for most of the mis-information, and the internet's wealth of knowledge and millions of medical experts are also to blame as there is so much rubbish floating around to last all out lifetimes and satisfy everyone's fears and theories. 
I will close the door softly on the way out and try not to break the glass windows.

----------


## Bros

> There's no hitting below the belt, you are reading something that you want to read, if you have a medical condition that AZ may be high risk then why didn't your doctor prescribe Pfizer if it's the safer alternative.

  It wasn't available and it only became available just before I got the clearance, I don't live in a metropolitan city with all the facilities laid on. In QLD the Pfizer hubs were Brisbane Sunshine Coast Townsville and Cairns so we well and truely missed out, now it has been extended. My doctor had to get the information for me.   

> IMO you should be on a priority to have Pfizer if there is a concern about taking AZ, or if getting protected as quickly as possible is the priority, you are in QLD so you have nothing to worry about unlike if you were in NSW and VIC.

  My reason has been said however we do not have ICU at our hospital so we are in a more difficult position so I support the hard line to keep it out. I had my AZ in early Aug.   

> Anyway I have said enough on here about Covid, I got my "good deal" as you refer to it, which is exactly why I said I didn't want to tell anyone here what vaccine I got as it was bound to be used against me.
> Which is exactly why you asked the question, and I fell for it, yes that's my fault for getting Pfizer, I was the lucky one of 5 who got the Wonka ticket, or was I ?

  You fell for nothing it was when you started to lecture people that I found difficult.

----------


## r3nov8or

> ... but a nanosecond later ...

  I'm starting to feel sorry I started this thread. 
Wait... What!!?? Wasn't me, was it?  
Anyway, glad I'm fully vaccinated as regional Vic opens up a little, as the Melbourne nuff-nuffs will be here for an illegal holiday soon. AZ is ok by me

----------


## sol381

Wife and i had our first shots on sunday at the brissie convention centre. Pretty quick and easy, Free parking there as well. Got the pfizer shot. Asked the nurse, was anyone getting AZ and she said the last bay was for AZ but wasnt getting used much at all. Didnt see many over 60s tho as they may have had their shot already. Also got some different answers from the nurses. We are both booked in for the 26th which is 3 weeks after our first shot. My nurse said second shot is 3 weeks up to 3 months. Other nurse told my wife up to a year. They need to get their stories straight.

----------


## r3nov8or

At the Geelong hub last week there were 5 booths for AZ and around 10 for Pfizer. The few I overheard talking about AZ where there for second doses and 12 weeks earlier, at the time of first dose, the 60+ rule hadn't quite come in. There were three people behind me that were in their 40s seemingly happy enough to get their second AZ

----------


## Marc

> IMO you should be on a priority to have Pfizer if there is a concern about taking AZ, or if getting protected as quickly as possible is the priority, you are in QLD so you have nothing to worry about unlike if you were in NSW and VIC.

  The Aztra vs Pfizer story needs to be seen in the context of Australia. Medicine and politics don't mix, and when they do they produce the absurdities we have seen the last 2 years. 
When it was clear that Australia was not going to elude the man made pestilence a few degenerates designed for undisclosed purposes, ( why is there no death penalty for their actions?) ... the government went shopping for vaccines. The Oxford was cheap, made in UK and available, so it was an obvious winner. The possibility to be made here, made it even more attractive
When Pfizer came to sell theirs, at 4 times the price, the government was grandstanding believing they had all covered with AZ. Understandable from people used to negotiate assets or services but ignoring the basics of medical supplies. Big fail from the overpaid idiots that advise them. (Submarines anyone?) 
When other countries stopped the use of AZ due to the adverse reactions, Pfizer rep had long gone and it took over 6 month to figure out a back way to have some supplies. 
With an oversupply of AZ, the government used all the tricks in the book to force the public to accept AZ. This translated in almost a full year of delay in mass vaccination.  
What is even more revealing is how the initial limited supply was distributed. Pfizer was the default choice for health workers, politicians and friends and family of the above. AZ was declared a perfectly good vaccine ... for the pleb. 
Is AZ that bad and Pfizer so good? 
Not really, plenty of adverse reactions from Pfizer, as it is normal with any other vaccine. 
Considering individual medical history in the choice of a treatment however, is basic. There are enough differences between individuals, to grant the need for minimum 2, preferably 3 different vaccines. 
So is one vaccine better than the other?
If the purpose is to avoid infection, both seem to give an equivalent level of protection. The side effects seem to be more serious from AZ, yet they are predictable looking at medical history. That is why there needs to be alternatives. 
To say that the one 'scoring' Pf in the early days of scant supply was better off, lucky or other qualifiers, is out of place. The only thing attributable to luck, is the lack of adverse reaction. Considering how experimental this vaccines are, everything about them is an educated guess. 
What is open for debate is the decision to once more, create the us and them, this time with the vaccine. A pathetic choice "for the boys", is not how medicine works.  
Because I have 3 members of my family working in hospital, we were all herded to be vaccinated with Pf early on. And I took the liberty to facilitate Pf for a friend, Vietnam Vet and DVT sufferer. I make no apologies for that, his GP is a moron for not doing that himself. 
This 2 years have uncovered a lot of the bad aspects of humanity and highlighted the abysmal failures of our political and medical system. THe behaviour of the states' premiers is a special chapter into the study of psychopathology and yet another show of the system failure.  
Where to from here?
Our immune system has kept humanity alive throughout history despite innumerable attempts from virus and bacteria to kill us. This is just one of the many, conceded enhanced by criminals,  (O bummer-Fauci-CCP) but still defeatable. It will be yet another strain to add to the yearly flu vac. 
My wife tested positive last week ... it was just a matter of time. I tested negative for now, but being in isolation together will obviously turn me positive. Wait and see. 
Lucky we both feel OK and have little projects to pass the time. 
And lucky for Coles online! I never used this service before. THe Coles system is so much better than Woolies and free. But no Aldi ... oh well. 
I run out of bananas to make smoothies. They arrive today with a $200 order of groceries. 
See you at the other end ... most likely with a few kilos extra  :Smilie:

----------


## r3nov8or

> ...
> Do you think Victoria has done any better ?, Melbourne is set to take take gold medal for the most days spent in harsh lockdown in the entire world, that hasn't accounted for much as cases are steadily rising again and are on track to equal NSW very soon, what has it all achieved.
> Mass hatred for the gov't, mental illness going through the roof, most amount of covid deaths of any state in Australia, these sorts of records are nothing to be proud of.
> ...

  It certainly hasn't been easy for VIC/Melbourne, gov't having employed a dodgy company for quarantine hotels with inadequate rules and practices to avoid cross-contamination, and the high death rate came mainly due to infections in the elderly in nursing homes with shift working nursing staff moving between facilities - those things and many more examples have been avoided nationally since, thankfully - due to lessons learned through experiences.  
It is a very different "knowledge environment" now to that during VIC/Melb's second wave, and we are now living through a "once bitten twice shy" approach to restrictions. And not to mention that vaccines weren't available/at least not plentiful during Melb's second wave. I don't hate the gov't here, I don't think I 'hate' anything actually, and I reckon I'm just like most normal folks, so to state "mass hatred" is purely hyperbole.  
NSW has benefitted from the passage of time, greater knowledge and vaccine availability, and I'm glad not as meny people have died this time around - comparing d!ck or nose sizes simply isn't helpful

----------


## Moondog55

Marc a very reasoned post. 
Good luck with the 14 day isolation. 
I agree that public health is too important to be allowed to be run by politicians but unfortunately  that is the system we have at the moment.

----------


## Marc

> Marc a very reasoned post. 
> Good luck with the 14 day isolation. 
> I agree that public health is too important to be allowed to be run by politicians but unfortunately  that is the system we have at the moment.

  
Unfortunately the trend in the last ten years has been to kill democracy. 
Can we leave that sort of politics out of this please

----------


## Moondog55

Australia and Australians desperately need a "Bill of Rights' and an Anti-corruption bureau with large sharp teeth and that is the last thing politicians want.  Moondog as above please.

----------


## Marc

Will moderna follow the path of Az? https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...vaccine-death/

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Will moderna follow the path of Az? https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...vaccine-death/

  The shot was from one of the batches that had been recalled, because they were tainted with 'metal' ??
Was reported a while back.

----------


## Bros

> My wife tested positive last week ... it was just a matter of time. I tested negative for now, but being in isolation together will obviously turn me positive. Wait and see. 
> Lucky we both feel OK and have little projects to pass the time.

   Well I wish you luck.
Do you have the flying squad of testers visiting you daily?

----------


## Marc

> Well I wish you luck.
> Do you have the flying squad of testers visiting you daily?

  Ha ha no, no flying squad. Public health called and had a long talk with my wife to identify whoever may have been exposed in the surgery. Fortunately the weekend may have shielded others. I tested negative on the 7, did another test on the 9 and waiting for the result. Most likely positive from the flu like symptoms I had yesterday. Testing station in the carpark of the local club only a few blocks away. 
Now, for whoever is interested in one of the best talks about infection mechanism and prevention i heard so far, here is a video from ZDoggMD. 
Besides the very clear explanations anyone can understand, a genuine look at how Public Health (CDC for them) treats the population and how counterproductive it is to assume everyone is an ignorant ass.
 Ok ... found one that is not facebook, even when facebook is a perfectly good platform. Lots of crap there, but lots of good stuff too.   https://zdoggmd.com/vaccine-breakthr...vT_Wl9rAHLnLgQ 
According to the above article, a mild infection after being vaccinated is a boost to immunity. Good stuff  :Smilie:  
My result just came in and the morons don't tell me "the result of your test is positive" no no no, I am too fragile to handle such terrible news! they say "Public health will contact you in relation to the result of your test ... " 
What a bunch of cretins.

----------


## Moondog55

It's probably multiple modes of transmission, contact/ aerosol and all those other means which I have forgotten.
Perhaps we will never know how this pandemic first started but it's not the first zoonosis  to ravage homo-sapiens and as many experts have warned us will not be the last.
Many things could have been handled better but it is what it is and we'll have to live with it now.
What concerns me most about the last few years is that there is that possibility that we'll be paying off all of the Government largesse with a massive increase in GST.
On a personal note I am, annoyed that there was a statement a while ago that people over the age of 65 would not ever have access to either Pfizer or Moderna vaccines here in Australia when my reading of research and trials overseas seems to indicate that mixing vaccine types gives far greater protection.
I'm OK for now but I would really like the option of having my booster shot of Pfizer in the new year; say around March or April when the next flu season kicks in.
That said I think that the current measures to counter the Wu-Shu Flu such as breath shields at registers and hand sanitisers at point of entry in retail and the wearing of masks for people with flu-like symptoms [ and perhaps also on public transport]  may make next flu season a bit less  likely to be bad.

----------


## Marc

It is not a zoonosis if it did not jump from animals to humans. 
Genetic engineering a virus found in animals to make it attack humans is not a zoonosis, it is mass murder. 
You should be able to have second dose or booster with Pfizer or Moderna. Dr Z had Moderna and he said it is a higher dose so the second one knocked him about for 30 hours. 
If anything it is AZ that is doomed. In the UK they are dumping it because of low intake.  
There are already talks to include sars2 in the yearly flu vaccines.

----------


## Bros

> If anything it is AZ that is doomed. In the UK they are dumping it because of low intake.

    About 6 mths ago I saw a quote from the General managing the vaccine saying the AZ vaccine would be phased out in October. I was just looking at the on line vaccine bookings at the Dr's where I live and the Pfizer has a waiting time for appointments of 1 week and the AZ a waiting time of 6 weeks to 8 weeks so it is well and truely on the way out. 
I don't know where it leaves the booster shot possibility in the future to AZ vaccinated people.

----------


## Marc

But if the waiting time is longer, doesn't it mean more interest?
As for booster, there is anecdotal evidence that mixing vaccines is actually good.

----------


## Bros

> But if the waiting time is longer, doesn't it mean more interest?

  I view it as lack of demand and the Dr's are only now ordering second doses.   

> As for booster, there is anecdotal evidence that mixing vaccines is actually good.

  I have heard that but is there anywhere that it has been approved?

----------


## Marc

Ask your doctor. My wife says there is no contraindication to have pfizer after AZ 
A bit of goobleygook here to say the same  https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...115-6/fulltext

----------


## Bros

> Ask your doctor. My wife says there is no contraindication to have pfizer after AZ

  But this hasn't been approved in Australia so the doctor who did this would be going out on a limb and I don't know whether the second dose of another vaccine would pass the fully vaccinated test.

----------


## Marc

"Approval" is a mixture of commercial and political games, sprinkled with some little bit of medical research from a source that confirms the official position  :Smilie:

----------


## UseByDate

> I have heard that but is there anywhere that it has been approved?

  Yes. Canada.
  On June 1, NACI approved the mixing of the three approved vaccines in Canada (Pfizer-BioNTech, Moderna, and AstraZeneca-Oxford). Specifically, they recommended mixing a first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine with a second dose of one of the mRNA vaccines and mixing a first dose of a Pfizer or Moderna vaccine with a second dose of either mRNA vaccine.[185][186] Two weeks later, they changed their recommendations to suggest that a second dose of one of the mRNA vaccines after a first shot of AstraZeneca is "preferred", due to new evidence that seems to demonstrate an improved immune response on a mixed vaccine schedule.[187][188]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-...tion_in_Canada

----------


## Bart1080

> I don't know whether the second dose of another vaccine would pass the fully vaccinated test.

  Both had our 2 jabs yesterday.
First jabs were Astra 12 weeks ago. 
On the day of the first jab, the availability rules changed for Pz.  The other half being a health care worker wanted the Pz.
Based on anecdotal evidence that mixing vaccines can achieve good result and a discussion with her doctor including whats occurred abroad resulting in her getting the second jab with Pz.
I'd simply stuck with the approved program. 
I received an email within 4 hours of getting the final jab with the COVID certificate to download/add to my phone wallet but the wife has no notification of a certificate.  
Her immunization within the Medicare app details the 2 jabs with the respective dates and the brand ie: Astra & Pz. 
So based on that, looks like she wont be getting a COVID certificate.....I suspect at some stage in the next day, week, months the rules will change again and along will come the coveted certificate!

----------


## Bros

> Both had our 2 jabs yesterday. 
> On the day of the first jab, the availability rules changed for Pz.  The other half being a health care worker wanted the Pz.
> Based on anecdotal evidence that mixing vaccines can achieve good result and a discussion with her doctor including whats occurred abroad resulting in her getting the second jab with Pz.

  I think within 3 mths time you will be able to inoculate a broom stick with Pfizer as there will be so much of it and the AZ will be out of production I have been wondering if I will get the second AZ at the end of Oct.   

> So based on that, looks like she wont be getting a COVID certificate.

  Saying that the system recognizes that she is not fully vaccinated bit of a problem there.

----------


## Marc

It's all to do with plausible deniability from the "authorities" and their insurance. 
Nothing to do with what is best for the patient.

----------


## r3nov8or

Curious decision by Gladys, with the worst yet to come...  https://amp.theguardian.com/australi...cord-new-cases

----------


## phild01

Perhaps it is a sign from her that the 70% freedom target could well be disastrous and she would rather be in hiding. I am interested in how it is possible for businesses to enforce the relaxation for vaccinated people only, then the problem of fake certificates. Seventy percent is not great, 85-90% would be my target.

----------


## r3nov8or

There has been talk that she is not well / at least not looking well, but it's been a while since I took much notice. Dan fell down a flight of stairs to get a decent break  :Smilie:   :Frown:

----------


## phild01

Yeah, today she looked like a breakdown is imminent. I think it plays on her mind the early decision to delay lockdowns and the mess we are in now.

----------


## Marc

I agree, Galahdis is and has always been out of her depth, just like Dr Chant that with her "New World Order" sarcastic remark has dug her own grave.  
For those in the real world, trying to return to some form of normality, the idea that shops must ask for proof of vaccination from customers is not only illegal but a PR disaster for the business. The whole experience is a wake up call for Australia. We are in the hands of resourceless imbecile parasites. The sad part is that we put them there.  
For me it is day 4 with Covid. 
Comparing with my memory of the flu, day one was not much of a muchness, day 2 and 3 ... on the scale of 1 to 10, say 4. Today so far may be 3. Still feeling slightly dizzy, red irritated eyes, not much appetite. 
This too will pass.

----------


## phild01

Marc, you mentioned your wife had the virus, are you are a confirmed case too? What was your vaccination one or two?

----------


## Marc

Yes, she tested positive one day and thee same day I tested negative. However I was suspicious so did the test again the next day and bingo, positive.
Both had double Pfizer. We both seem to have similar mild symptoms. One annoying effect is loss of smell.

----------


## Bros

> I agree, Gladys is and has always been out of her depth,

  She is not on her own there as this is the first time in our lifetime that a pandemic of this scale has happened and most are having difficulties. Australia has the benefit of being behind the rest of the world and use the lessons other have faced.   

> For those in the real world, trying to return to some form of normality, the idea that shops must ask for proof of vaccination from customers is not only illegal but a PR disaster for the business.

  I don't quite know what they are trying to do as if the unvaccinated choose to go to these places they take the risk. The policing of this will be a nightmare, do buisness have to have heavies at the door or do they need to install special doors that the fully vaccinated QR code will open.
Where I live Bunnings employs a lot of women it would be silly to ask them to police it. They used to ask if we had signed in but they don't do that any more.

----------


## John2b

> Yes, she tested positive one day and thee same day I tested negative. However I was suspicious so did the test again the next day and bingo, positive. Both had double Pfizer. We both seem to have similar mild symptoms. One annoying effect is loss of smell.

   Bugger. I hope you both stay well.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> ... 
> For those in the real world, trying to return to some form of normality, the idea that shops must ask for proof of vaccination from customers is not only illegal but a PR disaster for the business. The whole experience is a wake up call for Australia. We are in the hands of resourceless imbecile parasites. The sad part is that we put them there.  
> For me it is day 4 with Covid. 
> Comparing with my memory of the flu, day one was not much of a muchness, day 2 and 3 ... on the scale of 1 to 10, say 4. Today so far may be 3. Still feeling slightly dizzy, red irritated eyes, not much appetite. 
> This too will pass.

  Hope you and yours come through this in good health.
Always admire those in the front line of this, as I think your wife has been?   

> ...I don't quite know what they are trying to do as if the unvaccinated choose to go to these places they take the risk. The policing of this will be a nightmare, do buisness have to have heavies at the door or ....

  Talking to my dentist about this yesterday, who in past lockdowns here in WA has had to close up shop and cancel all appointments.
He is fully vaxed but said he would still see patients who were unvaxed (would not be enforcing vax certificate checking, quick virus testing regime etc) - he said he understood vax hesitancy given the experimental nature of the current crop of vaccines so maybe this was part of his reasoning. At a previous visit he said dentistry was regarded as a virus explosion site - with the current guidelines dental work would have to be carried out in full hazmat suits in a pressure controlled room, so any and all appointments got cancelled.

----------


## UseByDate

Pfizer releases brand new drug. :Smilie:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Gva3EKB_o

----------


## Bros

Sanity has prevailed here.   

> Pfizer vaccinations will be available from next week to South Australians aged 60 and over who have previously only been eligible to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...lity/100453992

----------


## phild01

Privileged lot.

----------


## UseByDate

> Sanity has prevailed here.     https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...lity/100453992

  But only for those that have not had an AZ vaccination.
 Those who have had one dose of AstraZeneca will need to get the second dose of the same vaccine.  
  Ie only people that have had no Covid vaccinations will be eligible for two Pfizer doses. I wonder whether or not we will be offered a Pfizer/Moderna booster in 6 months?

----------


## Bros

> I wonder whether or not we will be offered a Pfizer/Moderna booster in 6 months?

  I see on the news tonight that the UK will make a decision next week but the AZ inventors are saying that it is not necessary as it is still giving good protection.

----------


## Marc

Still not able to smell coffee.  :Annoyed:

----------


## ForeverYoung

> About 6 mths ago I saw a quote from the *General managing* the vaccine saying the AZ vaccine *would be phased out in October.* I was just looking at the on line vaccine bookings at the Dr's where I live and the Pfizer has a waiting time for appointments of 1 week and the AZ a waiting time of 6 weeks to 8 weeks *so it is well and truely on the way out*. 
> I don't know where it leaves the booster shot possibility in the future to AZ vaccinated people.

   

> I see on the news tonight that the UK will make a decision next week but the AZ *inventors* are saying that it is not necessary as it is *still giving good protection.*

  Confusing eh?
Yes, I have seen the same confusing conflicted reports.
But it is science not spin  :Smilie: 
Then add the politicians takeaway on top - no wonder people are fed up. 
This has a summary of some data. Just the facts: Coronavirus in Australia by the numbers | The Spectator Australia
The links I followed take to to TGA, a source I linked above.
Of course, statistics can be spun too.

----------


## Bros

> This has a summary of some data. Just the facts: Coronavirus in Australia by the numbers | The Spectator Australia
> The links I followed take to to TGA, a source I linked above.
> Of course, statistics can be spun too.

  Some eyewatering stats there especially the cost of testing, no wonder the pathology professional are opposing rapid tests as testing is a gold mine for them.
As for the co morbidity I have done some family history research and anyone of my relations who were over 60 who died had more then one cause on the death certificate.
The counting of ICU beds is a oversimplification as that would only apply to a small part of Queensland and I suspect other states as well as most areas don't have ICU.

----------


## John2b

> This has a summary of some data. Just the facts: Coronavirus in Australia by the numbers | The Spectator Australia
> The links I followed take to to TGA, a source I linked above.
> Of course, statistics can be spun too.

   Funny you should say that statistics can be spun, because that is exactly what this article is trying to do. The false impression given by citing raw statistics without context  is that interventions to prevent Covid infections, illnesses and deaths have been a waste of time, without acknowledging that the low rates of Covid infections, illnesses and deaths are the natural and expected consequence of those interventions, or that early intervention afforded by wide scale testing for Covid reduces the severity of the illness and improves outcomes for victims, young and old. 
It's like implying that traffic lights are a waste of time and money because there are few accidents at intersections controlled with traffic lights; or it isn't necessary to take sulphur out of the exhausts of diesel engines and coal fired power stations because there aren't acid rain events.

----------


## UseByDate

:What he said:

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Funny you should say that statistics can be spun, because that is exactly what this article is trying to do. The false impression given by citing raw statistics without context  is that interventions to prevent Covid infections, illnesses and deaths have been a waste of time, without acknowledging that the low rates of Covid infections, illnesses and deaths are the natural and expected consequence of those interventions, or that early intervention afforded by wide scale testing for Covid reduces the severity of the illness and improves outcomes for victims, young and old. 
> It's like implying that traffic lights are a waste of time and money because there are few accidents at intersections controlled with traffic lights; or it isn't necessary to take sulphur out of the exhausts of diesel engines and coal fired power stations because there aren't acid rain events.

  Fair enough if you disagree with the '_comment_' that was at the end of the statistics. I thought that wasn't necessarily supported by the statistics they quoted either.
I linked the article not because of their conclusion but because it summarised some interesting stats some of which you don't really see in msm eg cost of tests, vaccine reactions.
I can't see where they were arguing per se again interventions (masks, hand sanitising, social distancing, lockdowns, testing) - based on their concluding remark they were trying to put up a case against vaccinations; the statistics were not particularly convincing in that regard. 
There is a risk in everything we do - we lessen those risks where possible eg by putting in traffic lights.
There is a risk of adverse reactions with the vaccines, but it is small, and they substantially lessen the risk of serious covid related disease or death. They lessen the load on our health systems from covid related illness. Even I can read those statistics that way which is why I think their conclusion isn't supported by the stats.

----------


## Marc

The numbers in that excellent article in the Spectator are irrefutable facts. To spin the BS that they are so low thanks to "interventions", you must first show that that so called "intervention" has made a statistically valid difference. How do you intend to prove that?
 Answer, it is impossible to prove without a sample of the same country deprived from this magical "intervention".  
One could equally say that the regions that have not been locked down, are better off than those locked down, therefore lockdown encourages infections ... and it would be an equally wrong assertion. 
It would be as valid as to say that by doing a Valsalva maneuver, you can increase your chickens egg production. 
The only thing that we have as a population to fight off this infections are, our own natural immune system, and vaccines to stimulate our own immune system.  
 Public health has gone to great length to suppress, abscond, discourage, ban and lately gone to the unprecedented step of outlaw and penalise any attempt at any other method of treatment outside of vaccination. In case you don't know, even if you are in trouble, and go to hospital and intensive care, all you can hope for is isolation, oxygen and may be well wishes.  Despite a large body of evidence that ivermectin on it's own or hydroxychloroquine combined with 2 more drugs are both effective to treat sars2. The reasons given for this absurd Iatrogenic action is that there is no safety data, yet both drugs have been in use for half a century against different parasites, and safety data is overabundant.  
There are countless cases of "Off label" use of drugs, from veterinary drugs used for humans, analgesics used as blood thinners, stimulants to treat hyperactivity and many more. Applications for "approval" is quickly lodged when there is a commercial incentive for pharmaceutical companies, and, like in this case dismissal as a myth, or creatives way to discourage or even ban, with aloof excuses, because it would clearly damage a novel lucrative market, is swift.
It is the role of public health to reign in this criminal abuses, not to be an agent for it.  
So where was I ? ... oh yes ... the magic of "intervention"  
Let's compare places where clearly there is an intervention ...take nursing homes for example:  Approximately 66% (700 out of 1053) of Covid deaths in Australia (as at 7 September 2021) have occurred in aged care. Out of 894 cases of people aged over 90 who have tested positive to Covid, 557 have survived (as at 7 September 2021). This means that even those aged over 90 have a statistical chance of over 60% of overcoming Covid. Outside of aged care the overall CFR for Covid in Australia (as at 7 September 2021) is approx 0.57% (353 deaths out of 61,630 cases). If you are not an aged care resident you have a greater than 99% chance of surviving Covid.  In this case "intervention" in the form of infected unvaccinated health care workers and family members are clearly helping ... not. In the only place where stringent rules would have made a difference we had lax, laissez faire, who cares approach. 
I am double vaccinated and I must tolerate daily calls from public health computer, intrusive police car stopping at the door and calling to see if I am home, not to mention what we can all see, the total abuse of power on the street against the usual idiots.  Is that the intervention you praise and that reduced mortality so well?  If my wife and I, are well after just a few days of flu like symptoms, has nothing to do with any real or imaginary "intervention". Simply to do with being both healthy, thin and fully vaccinated. If Our symptoms had been more unpleasant, I would have needed to buy online from someone supplying without script, as If I was buying dope. The result of your magic "intervention"  National statistics on deaths In Australia there were 58,515 deaths that occurred between January and May 2021 and were registered by 31 July (including 5,043 deaths from respiratory disease).This is 3,475 deaths (6.3%) more than the 2015-19 average and comparable to 2020. Only one of these deaths was due to Covid. For the month of May, there were 12,973 deaths (including 1,202 deaths due to respiratory diseases), which is 7.6% more deaths than average, and 5.3% more than in 2020. None of these deaths were due to Covid. From 1 January to 31 July 2020, there were 32,398 deaths in residential aged care in Australia, compared with 33,383 at the same point in 2019. Covid has had an extremely negligible impact on the overall average number of deaths in Australia and the average age at death. According to ABS data in the 5 year period from 2015-2019, there were 806,259 deaths recorded in Australia. This equates to a yearly average of 161,251 deaths. There were 116,345 deaths registered by doctors between January 1 and October 27, 2020, compared with the 2015-19 average of 117,484. In 2020 there were 141,116 deaths recorded in Australia. 909 (0.64%) of these were Covid related.

----------


## r3nov8or

Some pretty cool data available to customise and "play" the results over time...  https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...BR~FRA~JPN~AUS

----------


## John2b

> Fair enough if you disagree with the '_comment_' that was at the end of the statistics.

  The comments at the end of the Spectator article include a number of logical fallacies worded to sound plausible. If you take the traffic light analogy, everyone can see what happens when some people make an 'informed decision' (with the knowledge that there is a real risk of an adverse outcome leading to death or serious injury) to ignore red lights and speed limits. The freedom to speed through red lights is one we (mostly) willingly forgo for the greater benefit of the community. And even though particulate pollution is known to cause thousands of excess deaths each year in Australia, as "dieselgate" demonstrated some are still willing to disregard public health and legislation for financial benefit. That's why laws and enforcement exist even in democratic countries.

----------


## METRIX

> Still not able to smell coffee.

  Marc, 
Studies have shown it will take anywhere form one to six months to get your sense of smell / taste back, 40% surveyed said it too up to six months, 2% did not recover after six months. 
I lost my smell / taste for a few months, it was weird as it took a while to realise you could not actually taste food !!!
I'm curious, if you get covid while double vaccinated, can you get it again, and possibly again ? 
Here is a good article regarding this strange side effect of covid.  https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/wh...ow-get-it-back

----------


## Marc

> Marc, 
> Studies have shown it will take anywhere from one to six months to get your sense of smell / taste back, 40% surveyed said it too up to six months, 2% did not recover after six months. 
> I lost my smell / taste for a few months, it was weird as it took a while to realise you could not actually taste food !!!
> I'm curious, if you get covid while double vaccinated, can you get it again, and possibly again ? 
> Here is a good article regarding this strange side effect of covid.  https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/wh...ow-get-it-back

  Weird, yes, but I can taste suite, salty,  bitter and sour. It's the smell that is complimentary that is missing. Thank you for the link and the smell training. Will give it a go, plenty of time on my hands.  
Here is some UK data on double vaccinated and re-infections. Notice it says 3 times less likely to test positive, and also less likely to infect others.  https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/2277...-lower-double/ 
There are studies on immunity build up with infections after vaccine, however, organism are all different especially when it comes to immunity, variations depend on age, gender, race, state of health, other infections, and that is only to get started, so ... better to answer "who knows"  :Smilie:

----------


## METRIX

> Weird, yes, but I can taste suite, bitter and sour. It's the smell that is complimentary that is missing. Thank you for the link and the smell training. Will give it a go, plenty of time on my hands.  
> Here is some UK data on double vaccinated and re-infections. Notice it says 3 times less likely to test positive, and also less likely to infect others.  https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/2277...-lower-double/ 
> There are studies on immunity build up with infections after vaccine, however, organism are all different especially when it comes to immunity, variations depend on age, gender, race, state of health, other infections, and that is only to get started, so ... better to answer "who knows"

  So wondering how things will go "long term" ie, Double vaccinated gets infected then you build up more immunity, at some point your immunity will have to wear out if you haven't been infected for a while.
I guess this is where the booster shot / shots will come into effect. 
With overseas people coming in they will inevitably bring fresh Delta, Echo, or Foxtrot versions in, will the previous immunity help with this. 
Was reading about the manufacturing of mRNA vaccines here not just for covid but as a technology for other medications. 
The gov't has so far received ten bids to manufacture this technology here, Pfizer has said they don't have intentions to manufacture outside the US and EU any time in the future because it's worth too much to them to be the sole suppliers rather than licensing the technology. 
Moderna is earmarked to be one of the front runners, as they are eager to setup multiple large scale manufacturing around the world.
Word is, Moderna is the only other manufacturer outside Pfizer and BioNTech that has the capability / technology to manufacture from start to finish without the reliance on competing pharmaceutical companies such as Pfizer. 
It's interesting looking at how the Pfizer vaccine is made. 
It consists of 280 materials, sourced from 86 manufacturers across 19 countries, all these components come together in only two places, US and Europe.
The Pfizer vaccine was developed by BioNTech not Pfizer, Pfizer partnered with them to do the mass trials and global manufacturing.

----------


## Marc

Some of the past pandemic. It seems that we are good at survival after all.   https://www.livescience.com/worst-ep...n-history.html

----------


## METRIX

With the Digital Vaccination certificate, I'm curious how effective this is going to be. 
I notice the only security feature it has is a live continuous rolling time update watermarked into it and a few unique identifier numbers.
 With a Tick that animates about every 7 seconds. 
The clock is obviously there as a feature to thwart people using screenshots, but the clock is small and obscure so can easily be overlooked that it's not actually doing anything, I would have thought a more obvious colour for this such as black rather than light grey would be a better choice so you can see it's frozen or showing the wrong time if a screenshot is being used. 
I suspect this certificate is really only for generalised local use, and wont be useful for anything critical.
I can easily modify it and input new details given 5 minutes in Photoshop, but could not generate the rolling clock feature without a bit of extra work. 
If you are an anti-vaxer, it appears at first glance to be easily bypassed, and wouldn't be surprised if we see this being done sooner rather than later, then there will be the typical blame game with version 2,3,4,5 etc being implemented, the typical confusion, politics blaming each other, media jumping on the bandwagon, Melbourne will go into spontaneous protest  :Smilie:  etc. 
Actually just had another look at this, and it appears the Australian coat of arms moves in real time up and down, left and right as you rotate the phone, with the real time clock ticking over in front of this. 
I will look into this a bit more to see what happens if your gyro sensor is not working in your smart device as it must be using this to perform this function.   
I also had difficulty getting it to link and be displayable in the app.
I found trying to get this done on the phone just kept me going in a continuous loop of one-time-code and error message from medicare, after about 5 attempts I gave up. 
In the end I logged into mygov from a PC and had it sorted in about a minute.

----------


## r3nov8or

The Medicare app 'encourages' you to save it to Google Pay and Apple Wallet, which is a simple copy without any animation, and also a different format, so not sure how it's all meant to work in the real world as 'proof'

----------


## Marc

Faced with this super flu, and being 72, when I am confident in my ability to overcome challenges, I found having an easy way to check oxygen levels and heart frequency is very valuable. 
If O2 is above 95% and rate under 100 all is good. Otherwise, you may need to call the ambulance.
Only once in the first days O2 was 94 and frequency 110, but it soon subsided. Now I am steady 60 to 70 frequency and 96-98 O2
The gadget is relatively cheap and super easy to use.   https://amamedicalproducts.com.au/co...pulse-oximeter

----------


## ForeverYoung

> With the Digital Vaccination certificate, I'm curious how effective this is going to be....

  Read an article the other day about Denmark. They have ~75% vaccination (% of population, not the eligible % which our govt like), anyway they are fully open and have abandoned proof of vaccination requirements. Also getting around 500 cases a day (similar population to Melbourne/Vic which was part of the comparison). 
Article also mentioned UK which was suggesting they might abandon proof of vaccination also. I could try and dig out the articles if interested, I didn't bookmark them. I did snap this pic of the comparable vaccination rates tho:   
edit:
Here is the article on Denmark. Denmark has no covid restrictions: Country leading the way to new normal | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site 
UK one: UK COVID: England to scrap vaccine passport plan as winter looms (smh.com.au) 
And a reminder on Singapore. 80% vaccination. ~500 cases a day.  Singapore reaches 80 pc double-vaccination rate but life is not returning to normal - ABC News

----------


## UseByDate

> Some of the past pandemic. It seems that we are good at survival after all.   https://www.livescience.com/worst-ep...n-history.html

  We are all truly privileged to have had ancestors that survived long enough to have offspring. I feel sorry for those who are not here today because one of their ancestors did not.    :Smilie:

----------


## UseByDate

> Article also mentioned UK which was suggesting they might abandon proof of vaccination also.

  Each nation within the UK decides health policy independently.
 England has decided not to introduce a domestic covid passport.
 Scotland has decided to have one.
 Wales is still deciding.
 NI is thinking about making a decision. :Smilie:

----------


## Bros

> The Medicare app 'encourages' you to save it to Google Pay and Apple Wallet, which is a simple copy without any animation, and also a different format, so not sure how it's all meant to work in the real world as 'proof'

  I was talking to a mate who lives in Georges Hall in Sydney and he thinks they are a great idea and I then asked him why, and he could not answer. I said I believe in most instances it is hard to police and the paper copies can be forged and who does it protect.

----------


## Marc

I think that the worse part of the so called vaccine passport is that it attempts to delegate police powers to civilians. Not a good idea.

----------


## intertd6

> I think that the worse part of the so called vaccine passport is that it attempts to delegate police powers to civilians. Not a good idea.

  Get used to it though, no shoes, no shirt , no vax, no service.
inter

----------


## PhilT2

I think I still have my vaccination passport from 1976, the one you needed to go anywhere back then. Can i recycle it or do I have to pretend that having one is something new?

----------


## Moondog55

The one with Cholera, Typhoid and Smallpox on it?? I wonder where mine is

----------


## ForeverYoung

> I think I still have my vaccination passport from 1976, the one you needed to go anywhere back then. Can i recycle it or do I have to pretend that having one is something new?

  Did you have to show it to go to the disco?

----------


## phild01

States cried poor about NSW having more than their share of vaccines but somehow SA and QLD have plenty enough Pfizer to give it to anyone who wants it, no age discrimination!

----------


## UseByDate

> I see on the news tonight that the UK will make a decision next week but the AZ inventors are saying that it is not necessary as it is still giving good protection.

  England has decided to provide booster vaccinations from next Monday to those over 50 years of age,  front line workers and aged care workers. Vaccine to be Pfizer or half dose Moderna. AZ may be used if there was a previous adverse reaction to Pfizer. Booster vaccination to be six months or more from second vaccination.  
Children aged 12 to 15 will also be vaccinated from next Monday. Consent is required from parents and the child. If the child consents and the parents do not then there will be a mediation process. If at the end of mediation and the parents still do not consent then the child will be vaccinated. IE the child's  choice trumps the parents permission if the child is judged to be competent. They will only receive one dose of vaccine. At present vulnerable children (or living with a vulnerable person) aged 12 to 15 are vaccinated with two doses.

----------


## Bros

> States cried poor about NSW having more than their share of vaccines but somehow SA and QLD have plenty enough Pfizer to give it to anyone who wants it, no age discrimination!

   And WA, and NT to the list, soon I will be able to get my broomstick vaccinated.
The only state I saw complaining was VIC.

----------


## Bros

> England has decided to provide booster vaccinations from next Monday to those over 50 years of age,

  Is the booster a different product or just the same recipe?

----------


## Bros

> Get used to it though, no shoes, no shirt , no vax, no service.
> inter

  Difference there is you can see easily if someone has no shoes or shirt but the vax is different.

----------


## PhilT2

> Did you have to show it to go to the disco?

  No, just had to show proof of age, but that was a long time ago. I think at one time I had to show proof that I had registered for national service (conscription) but can't remember what that was for, maybe a job application or something. Did have to show proof of vaccination when putting the kids in kindy

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Is the booster a different product or just the same recipe?

  Based on different articles I have read recently there seems to be no difference in the recipe - except I read awhile ago that Moderna was more potent than Pfizer (it was about side effects and that was why Pfizer wound theirs back), and recently I read somewhere that if Moderna was used as a 3rd shot than only a half dose was to be given. I also read boosters were prioritised in most countries for persons immune compromised. Also that the efficiency for the aged only wanes slightly from just above 90% to just below, so is a 3rd really required?  Moderna vaccine approved for children 12 years and older, in line with Pfizer vaccine - ABC News  

> It said there was evidence of a small decline in effectiveness of the vaccine against hospitalisation for older people, dropping from just over 90 per cent to just under 90 per cent after five to six months.

   

> Most countries administering third doses are prioritising people with compromised immune systems

   

> But with research showing COVID-19 vaccines remain more than 90 per cent effective at preventing severe disease and death, are third doses really necessary? And what does the rollout of booster shots mean for the billions of people around the world yet to receive even a first COVID-19 vaccine?

   

> But the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control and the World Health Organization have both stressed there is currently no need to give third doses to people with no underlying health conditions

  COVID-19 booster vaccines are part of the plan, but who to give them to and when isn't yet clear - ABC News  

> *Third doses and boosters not necessarily the same thing*  It may sound like semantics, but there's an important distinction to be made between a third vaccine given as part of an initial round of vaccinations, and a booster shot administered when vaccine immunity wanes.

----------


## phild01

I don't think our government is any hurry up for boosters from what I have heard, good reason for me waiting another 5 weeks (12 all up) for my next shot.

----------


## Marc

> Is the booster a different product or just the same recipe?

  It's the same vaccine and the same dose.
 Individual circumstances will dictate the need for a third dose. Also remember that the vaccine is likely to change over and over as the virus changes, not different from the flu vaccine. 
The conjectures and speculations, semantics and definition massages in that ABC article, makes you wonder how some of this writers are able to make the decision to get out of bed in the morning.

----------


## phild01

> The only state I saw complaining was VIC.

  I heard a few including WA.

----------


## r3nov8or

> States cried poor about NSW having more than their share of vaccines but somehow SA and QLD have plenty enough Pfizer to give it to anyone who wants it, no age discrimination!

  Where there is less demand, there is plenty... until they get an outbreak, demand suddenly increases, then they cry poor for it, like NSW, like VIC... who's next?

----------


## METRIX

> I don't think our government is any hurry up for boosters from what I have heard, good reason for me waiting another 5 weeks (12 all up) for my next shot.

  By the time you get the second shot, cases will probably be zero in NSW. 
Thinking we may have hit the peak or 1600+ cases on the 10 September, its been dropping to around 1200 cases a day since then.
Can't find any figures on how many cases are not ending up in hospital, eg double vaxed mild cases. 
Must be quite high as there are 1241 in Hospital with 256 deaths from 46,818 cases.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> By the time you get the second shot, cases will probably be zero in NSW...

  I doubt it will ever be zero. 
Moderna haven't yet got authorisation for the 1/2 dose booster.  

> Moderna is seeking FDA authorization for a third dose of its COVID-19 vaccine for the general public.Data presented by the company indicates that a booster shot containing half the initial dosage is effective at creating a strong immune response.If the half dose is authorized, Moderna could potentially ramp up its global vaccine supply.

  Moderna's Half-Dose Booster May Expand Global Vaccine Supply (verywellhealth.com)

----------


## phild01

> By the time you get the second shot, cases will probably be zero in NSW.

  That won't happen. I believe the government wants to convince us that boosters won't be that necessary, just for the vulnerable. So I feel more comfortable waiting it out and having a higher level of protection than what the government thinks is good enough for me. If I got the 2nd shot now I will have a very poor 60% level of protection. Even at 11 weeks it only gets to 63.7% but 12 weeks plus it is 81.3%, this from a Lancet study. So without any certainty of a booster I want maximum protection for as long as it lasts.

----------


## Bros

> So I feel more comfortable waiting it out and having a higher level of protection than what the government thinks is good enough for me.

  As a famous man once said "Ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country" so get the second to get the famous numbers up. So don't believe it is not a race. 
JFK comment.

----------


## intertd6

> Difference there is you can see easily if someone has no shoes or shorts but the vax is different.

   Of course the anti vax forgers will work out a way to get around it momentarily, but it will be short lived & those caught forging it will pay a very heavy price. Even more so if covid catches up with them.
inter

----------


## METRIX

Anti-Vaxers demanding medical exemption 
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/aussies-seeking-medical-exemptions-from-coronavirus-vaccines-clogging-the-gp-system/news-story/1183673b29ee52c5fff36b6b37dc77ea

----------


## METRIX

> That won't happen. I believe the government wants to convince us that boosters won't be that necessary, just for the vulnerable. So I feel more comfortable waiting it out and having a higher level of protection than what the government thinks is good enough for me. If I got the 2nd shot now I will have a very poor 60% level of protection. Even at 11 weeks it only gets to 63.7% but 12 weeks plus it is 81.3%, this from a Lancet study. So without any certainty of a booster I want maximum protection for as long as it lasts.

  You don't know that for sure, unless you work for the govt in this area. 
It makes no sense to say the govt want to convince us boosters won't be that necessary, just for the vulnerable. 
Can you explain why you believe that ? because I don't understand why you believe that.
What has convinced you to believe that's what's going on in the background ? 
Who is the vulnerable ?, if protection against the virus wears down on everyone over 6 - 12 - 18 months, and the virus is still out there then who is vulnerable ? - everyone is vulnerable. 
Economically there is zero advantage to having the virus floating around causing major problems, to have lockdowns engaged, to have business close,  force people to sit at home being un productive, or overloading the health system and causing regular surgery to be put on backburner while the hospitals deals with avoidable covid cases. 
Every govt want's people to get back to normal because it generates income, income generates taxes, everyone needs to go about their normal life, every business needs to open again, no country can survive if this doesn't happen. 
If the govt is trying to convince us boosters wont be necessary, why would they be clearly publishing on their own websites that boosters will be required.
If the govt didn't want to give out boosters they would simply keep quiet about it. 
Why would they publish the amount of vaccine agreements they have entered into with the various manufacturers. 
Do you and others on here genuinely think the gov't would purchase hundreds of millions of vaccines, to just let them sit there and expire ?
If boosters were not going to be required for 1 year, 2 years, the gov't would have just entered into one agreement to supply 60 million doses so EVERY person in Australia could get two doses then leave it at that. 
Not even taking AZ into account which they have licensed over 53.8 million doses.  *Pfizer*
60 million doses in 2022
25 million in 2023.  https://www.pm.gov.au/media/australi...-2022-and-2023  *Moderna*
10 million doses in 2021
15 million booster for 2022  https://www.health.gov.au/ministers/...derna-vaccines  *Novavax*
If approved 51 million doses 
The govt has entered into agreements to supply our poultry 26 million people with close to 200 Million doses of one variant or another.
That's not including the so called lolly water AZ, add that to the basket and that's 250 Million vaccines for 26 Million people forecast for use up to 2023 !!! 
I understand you and others are dead set on extending the protection period to the maximum based on some information you have read on a website, that's your choice, I'm not questioning that as you can choose to do whatever you want.
If I was in a vulnerable age group in NSW or VIC at this moment I wouldn't be choosing to wait for a second dose based on something I read somewhere, or someone who I don't even know told me. 
 I would want to get the protection of the second dose ASAP. 
If you were in QLD or WA then you have that luxury to play with timelines, and pick and choose what you want to do.
It's well documented that the first dose offers a small amount of protection (of any brand) and plenty of people have died with only the first dose, where as those with second dose (of any version) are basically coming out with unscathed. 
I hope you don't get exposed to it through no fault of your own because the outcome could be a lot worse than a bunch of numbers you read somewhere, or a quote from some famous person in the past because none of that matters.
This could be something completely out of your hands, such as you or your misses might have a fall at home next week, and need urgent transporting to hospital. 
Maybe you both have a fall in the garden, you don't have your mobile to call for help, so you yell out to the neighbours 
A neighbour may come and assist you, or a UBER driver that saw you fall, stops to assist that just picked up the virus a few days earlier and not even know they have it.
You don't know what's going to happen between now and the next few months, you guys keep quoting these figures from the Lancet, or from famous people, neither of these will help you in this situation. 
You can say well that's not going to happen, how do you know that ?, You don't. 
Quotes from famous people mean nothing, it's what's going on around you now that is the most important.
If someone is offering you the red pill that will offer you immunity, why would you wait for the blue pill based on something you believe is not going to happen ?

----------


## Marc

> That won't happen. I believe the government wants to convince us that boosters won't be that necessary, just for the vulnerable. So I feel more comfortable waiting it out and having a higher level of protection than what the government thinks is good enough for me. If I got the 2nd shot now I will have a very poor 60% level of protection. Even at 11 weeks it only gets to 63.7% but 12 weeks plus it is 81.3%, this from a Lancet study. So without any certainty of a booster I want maximum protection for as long as it lasts.

   You are doing the right thing in my opinion. Wait it out, meantime you are protected anyway. The fact that you will not push up the stats for the galah of this state to screech ... too bad, The vaccine is for you no one else.
Most people who end up in hospital seriously ill with one dose, have not only had the jab recently, less than the 6 weeks it takes to do anything at all, but serious underlying conditions.  
No one can predict the individual future when it comes to circumstances of this nature. And what Metrix wrote above is perfectly valid. The risk is real. 
When did you have your first dose?  https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...554BAAFC66E1FF  

> We propose that a nutritional supplement (e.g. containing vitamins A, B6, B9, B12, C, D and E and the minerals Zn, Cu, Se and Fe) should be provided free of charge to all those aged over 70 years for a period of weeks before and after they receive the vaccine. The additional cost of providing a supplement of those nutrients important to immune function that are likely to be insufficient or deficient in the elderly would be a small investment to better assure a robust vaccine response.

  Meantime no one talks about the real crisis.
Overall death due to non covid reasons are through the roof. People are dying in their homes for lack of follow up for conditions that 2 years ago we had plenty resources for, cancer treatment, mental illness, surgical procedures and many more have fallen for this hysterical chase for "flattening the curve". Specialist of all description are all shifted towards covid. 
And for what? An illness that is mild for the vast majority. 
Medicine is no longer what is done in GP surgeries, just vaccinations that include conferencing with the patient over the necessary consent he or she does not understand or argues over. Hospitals do not treat the covid patients, but palliate their symptoms, The few treatment that appear to work are banned.

----------


## phild01

> You don't know that for sure, unless you work for the govt in this area.

  Not sure if my message was a bit muddled but I don't believe we will get to zero cases in 5 weeks time.   

> Can you explain why you believe that ? because I don't understand why you believe that. What has convinced you to believe that's what's going on in the background ?

  Something I saw reported the other night, just unsure what channel. Basically saying we will be looking to the region around us to supply vaccine before consideration to boosters here. It went on to say that boosters would be reserved for the vulnerable. The thought of restricted boosters is not just a consideration here but elsewhere as well._ 
"But the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control and the World Health Organization have both stressed there is currently no need to give third doses to people with no underlying health conditions.__"Third doses may be necessary for the most at-risk populations, where there is evidence of waning immunity against severe disease and death," WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus said last week._ _"But for now, we do not want to see widespread use of boosters for healthy people who are fully vaccinated."" _ COVID-19 booster vaccines are part of the plan, but who to give them to and when isn't yet clear - ABC News  IMO people are being denied opportunity to have a healthy level of protection in the race to get us sufficiently protected to keep us out of hospital. That is the government's priority with scant regard to how well we are protected from the virus.     

> If the govt is trying to convince us boosters wont be necessary, why would they be clearly publishing on their own websites that boosters will be required.

  They are leaving that open-ended with little commitment of a time-frame when they choose to do it. Also we don't know the detail of the agreements of supply with those companies. The vaccine itself is a small cost compared to the administering of it.   

> I understand you and others are dead set on extending the protection period to the maximum based on some information you have read on a website

   

> you guys keep quoting these figures from the Lancet, or from famous people,

  I am selective with what I read to the exclusion of whacky information as best as I can. Information needs to be sourced and you too have quoted websites as a source of information.

----------


## phild01

> When did you have your first dose?

  Seven weeks ago.

----------


## Marc

The riskier period is behind you. You now have some immunity. How much can be only determined with an antigen blood test, and it is a purely individual response that can not be guessed. 
You could do a serology test if your doctor is willing to prescribe one. 
If you are both otherwise healthy, have the usual precautions and get on with your life. Anxiety or fear does not help. 
Get a new project going!
 So far, my jail term projects where, rainwater tank, pressure pump and retaining wall reset. 
Have only one meter out of 40m retaining wall to re-stack. One advantage of the Keystone retaining wall is that if the ground manages to push it out of plumb, you can simply restack it vertical, a bit at the time. I pull 4 initial blocks out, and then 4 more and dig soil from behind it and stack 4 back nice and vertical, and keep on going.   ... this covid thing set me back a week or so ... not long to go now.  :Smilie:

----------


## pharmaboy2

On the booster. 
We have definitely bought enough to ensure that - but that is risk management - it was entered into months ago way before we knew whether we would need boosters , and whether the vaccine would need to be redesigned - ie the talk from moderna back in May was that they would redesign for delta, and were looking for a 2021 release of a more targetted vaccine. 
This seems to have gone to the wayside recently - maybe the FDA wouldnt approve quickly enough. 
OTOH, Albert Bourla from Pfizer has gone onto the just boost with pfizer and often - its hard to imagine what his motivation might be..... 
The CDC is looking towards higher risk people getting boosters only - they will be informed by the hospitalisation data. 
There is also the possibility if the nasal vaccines being a real cure of transmission, mid 22 perhaps? 
Once vaccines can be bought from the pharmacy, you will be able to choose your own boosting regime 
edit  -as per Marcs post above, getting tested for antibodies will be a thing going forward for the higher risk cohort (hope you and the wife are doing well Marc)

----------


## Bros

> The CDC is looking towards higher risk people getting boosters only - they will be informed by the hospitalisation data.

  Trouble is how do you higher risk people as people in their 90's have had covid and survived and people in their 30's have died. Do you have a hard cutoff point which is unfair or how do you do it. 
I haven't seen any scientific reports (I'm sure they exist) of the benefits or otherwise of mixing vaccines.

----------


## Marc

All quiet on the western front Ph boy.  :Smilie: 
Still can't smell coffee, but can smell truffles in the cheese  :2thumbsup:  
Booster, third shot, extra shot, are all part of a market. More shots, more money. 
Will we need one, come next year? Absolutely. 
Who will pay for it? Good question.  
Eventually all the little stalin, mao and mengele apprentices will find other ways to entertain themselves, and medicine might go back to those pesky ignorant doctors... and patients will be again treated as adults. 
So booster shot? If we turn out to be adults, we will be able to go to the chemist, pay $20 and get a vaccine according to your personal doctor's instructions. 
Who knows, may be ivermectin will be recognised as a valid treatment, just behind marijuana. 
I noticed that Moderna is talking about a" half dose" booster. May be because their vaccine is a high dose one ... who knows. 
The pathways are entangled and we don't know if it is medicine, marketing, politics or superstition.

----------


## UseByDate

"Half dose" Moderna has been approved in the UK for boosters but it seems to be a back up if supplies of Pfizer are not available. 
 I wonder if the prices Moderna charges are per jab, whether that be a “half dose” or “full dose”. IE does Moderna charge per jab or the volume of vaccine supplied? If per jab they will double their income. If per volume the price of the jab should half.
 What is the definition of a dose when contracts between governments and drug manufacturers are executed?

----------


## Marc

Who knows! However, the profit from pharmaceuticals has little to do with the material cost of production.  Is not like selling sugar by the kilo or half kilo.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> ... 
>  I wonder if the prices Moderna charges are per jab, whether that be a “half dose” or “full dose”. ...

  might be like eggs?
half dozen 90% the price of a full dozen.

----------


## pharmaboy2

> "Half dose" Moderna has been approved in the UK for boosters but it seems to be a back up if supplies of Pfizer are not available. 
>  I wonder if the prices Moderna charges are per jab, whether that be a “half dose” or “full dose”. IE does Moderna charge per jab or the volume of vaccine supplied? If per jab they will double their income. If per volume the price of the jab should half.
>  What is the definition of a dose when contracts between governments and drug manufacturers are executed?

  pricing is per treatment generally - costs are hidden, but in general number of patients treated for an expensive drug is the important bit - double doses dont achieve double pricing   

> Trouble is how do you higher risk people as people in their 90's have had covid and survived and people in their 30's have died. Do you have a hard cutoff point which is unfair or how do you do it. 
> I haven't seen any scientific reports (I'm sure they exist) of the benefits or otherwise of mixing vaccines.

  anecdote isnt how policy is put together.  for the 30yr old - they will look for risk factors - there are some neurological diseases that increase risk of this age group as if they were 60.  The random ones wont be considered.  I'd expect that 60+ will get boosted early, 50's maybe, 40's unlikely. 
The decision wont be made using deaths, it will be ICU or maybe ventilation required at a guess 
edit -  good to hear marc thumbs up

----------


## UseByDate

> Who knows! However, the profit from pharmaceuticals has little to do with the material cost of production.  Is not like selling sugar by the kilo or half kilo.

  Seems a bit much. The recommended dose is “a spoonful” of sugar to make the medicine go down. :Biggrin:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8VHc49ZdP4 
 PS hope your wife and yourself are doing well.

----------


## Marc

*https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/factsheets/Pages/advice-for-confirmed.aspx      
			
				How will I know when I can stop isolating?
			
		  *    

> When you are released from isolation depends on when your symptoms stop and how sick you have been. The clinical team caring for you will advise you when you are released from isolation. You will receive written advice confirming your release from isolation. If you have any questions about your release from isolation, please contact the clinical team caring for you. Routine retesting for COVID-19 is not recommended as your result may remain positive even though you are no longer unwell. This is because the test cannot distinguish between live and dead virus.

  Lovely, so the current test the government relies on to scaremonger the population into submission, can not distinguish between live or dead virus.  
The very nice person that called me once only this week, told me that by day 12 I should get a test. 
Their website states the above. Don't get tested or you get a false positive.  
Lovely. 
What now? If I get another positive, who will determine it is a false positive? 
How many of those thousands of positives are people who caught the virus, got over it naturally and are tested as positive because they have dead particles of virus in their nose? 
Sounds like a scam to me. 
That, on the back of that other statistical scam ... quoting the number of "cases" without quoting the number of test that harvested that number. No percentage, just raw data.
Scam number 2

----------


## ForeverYoung

As someone else said ... if we didn't do any testing we wouldn't have a problem  :Smilie:  
on the other hand...  

> After a public health call centre worker came forward on Wednesday, saying she had spoken to people who had not received their discharge papers up to 38 days after first testing positive,

  When Jodi Willard tested positive for COVID she isolated at home for 14 days, now she can't get the paperwork she needs to leave - ABC News

----------


## Marc

So how did Sweden do?  https://youtu.be/8IBo1KvNSX4

----------


## John2b

> So how did Sweden do?

  Not withstanding their unusual and unique strategy, how Sweden did was comparable to other poorly performing European countries. 
Luckily for Sweden, compared to other European states and wealthy countries worldwide, they:  have a robust and exceptionally generous social security so _everyone_ is relatively well off;don't have the population concentrated in a small number of large cities like other European countries;have a robust, universal and well funded public health system;have a healthy population with a low rate of lifestyle diseases (obesity, type 2 diabetes, heart disease, etc);have an exceptionally wealthy population and, most of allhave a population with a predominantly egalitarian viewpoint who would generally rather 'do the right thing' than cause a fuss. 
Even so Sweden had a worse disease rate per head of population than Italy, France and the  UK, for example, and a worse death rate per head of population than Germany (which frankly was an odd choice for comparison in the video). Even the architect of Sweden's Covid strategy, state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell, says he got it wrong and too many people died as a result.

----------


## METRIX

> Not sure if my message was a bit muddled but I don't believe we will get to zero cases in 5 weeks time.

  I also believe this, I don't think we will get to zero cases even by Christmas, I hope I'm wrong, but can't see it happening as it hasn't happened anywhere else.
I get the feeling this thing is going to be with everyone for a long time. 
Even if we do get to zero, once international borders reopen, it's not a case of we might import it again, it's a case of how long will it take to have it back in the community, guaranteed.    

> Something I saw reported the other night, just unsure what channel. Basically saying we will be looking to the region around us to supply vaccine before consideration to boosters here. It went on to say that boosters would be reserved for the vulnerable. The thought of restricted boosters is not just a consideration here but elsewhere as well.

  One thing we have up our sleeve is late take-up of the two doses, this will allow us to see how other countries who rushed into vaccination quite a while ago, and what does or does not work. This will allow us to use the information from them being the Guinee pigs.    

> IMO people are being denied opportunity to have a healthy level of protection in the race to get us sufficiently protected to keep us out of hospital. That is the government's priority with scant regard to how well we are protected from the virus.

  I don't agree, I think the gov't is following the recommendations of the manufacturers be it on the shorter side of recommendations, nonetheless it's still a recommendation, every chemical has a recommendation for min / max. be it paint , Panadol, vaccine etc. 
The highest priority is to get peoples second dose administered to get the protection up to a level that has shown to be effective and offer a high chance of not being hospitalised or dying. 
I don't have a problem with this, as I think it's the right thing to do, after all why put peoples lives at risk of complications or long term effects if they catch covid, isn't it best to try and avoid them getting it to the point where they need hospitalisation. 
If you have case numbers rising rapidly you can't afford to have people wandering around for 3 months with one vaccine, waiting for it's effectiveness to increase by a smaller percent when you can administer two vaccines according the  manufacturers recommendations that will offer a faster high level of protection if the situation requires it. 
Currently NSW / VIC require this now.     

> They are leaving that open-ended with little commitment of a time-frame when they choose to do it. Also we don't know the detail of the agreements of supply with those companies. The vaccine itself is a small cost compared to the administering of it.

  Does it worry you that we don't know that agreements, why are we worrying about this now when we have only just stared to roll out both doses, I'm sure when it comes time for a booster all will be finalised, it's easy to deal with when it would be recommended as they know when you had the second shot, and can easily schedule you for a booster via the mygov / Medicare app notifications. 
IMO this is not something anyone should be concerned about now, this is not going to happen for probably 6 - 12 months or longer who knows, the gov't probably doesn't know until they start trialling boosters overseas, this would be why they are leaving it open-ended because they simply don't know yet. 
As we see on this forum many time when someone is trying to do a simple task, they are overthinking it, IMO worrying about this now is exactly the same, you can't expect to have an answer to every question being asked. 
Administering boosters would be quite easy, either mass vaccination centres if there is a sense of urgency.
Or in the workplace for large companies as some are currently doing, of through your GP / Pharmacy. 
It wouldn't be any different to the yearly flu shot, which is where I see it will end up for the foreseeable future.
The thing with the boosters is a bit of contention at the moment, as poorer countries are being left behind with richer countries already talking about boosters, and the poorer ones are still to receive shot one.    

> I am selective with what I read to the exclusion of whacky information as best as I can. Information needs to be sourced and you too have quoted websites as a source of information.

  As I do, I have stopped reading anything to do with covid nowadays, if I see it on the news, I change channel, why ? because it doesn't matter, it's out of our hands.
I only look at the current figures for NSW on an every other day basis, because that's all that matters IMO. 
There has been a lot of studies undertaken into the effect on people with all the information available online, as there is too much information available on this subject.
With most information contradicting other information, the consumer has become overloaded and completely confused, so they go searching for more information. 
The studies found a high proportion of people have become obsessed with wanting to find an answer to a question they never even knew they wanted to ask, they only went searching because someone said something about something to someone else. 
 The studies are calling it Covid Anxiety, a high proportion of people have developed what they say is basically OCD, because they just can't stop trying to find information, with the wealth of wrong and sometimes right information available it's becoming uncontrollable and just feeding the obsession and making people physically ill and affecting their mental state. 
I am not interested in looking for any information as it doesn't really matter, it's not going to make any difference.
I say just get on with your life, what's going to happen will happen, get yourself vaccinated, use common sense, turn the computer off, get outside and back to what you enjoy, this is far better to do than worrying yourself literally to death. 
There are many countries who are far worse off than we are, yes we started the vaccination late, and that's not entirely the govt's fault, we snubbed out nose at something we were told was inferior, by the internet experts, we didn't listen to the science, we chose to listen to the media or some trumped up hysterical Chief Medical Officers, who some have done more harm than good. 
So at the end of the day we only have ourselves to blame for the mess, you can't blame the gov't for everything.

----------


## PhilT2

> So how did Sweden do?  https://youtu.be/8IBo1KvNSX4

  That video is a good example of selecting facts that suit the narrative; any analysis of whether the Swedish decision helped their economy is missing and with good reason. Their economy suffered badly and at one point they had the worst unemployment of all the Nordic countries. Economically they did worse than Norway and Finland. https://www.brinknews.com/how-well-a...thering-covid/

----------


## phild01

> waiting for it's effectiveness to increase *by a smaller percent* when you can administer two vaccines according the  manufacturers recommendations that will offer a faster high level of protection if the situation requires it.

  Actually for AZ, the difference between 4 weeks and 12 weeks is astoundingly massive and the studies show that. Sure it might keep you out of hospital but I want proper protection like others get with Pfizer and I have to wait for that. The feeling that boosters may not be necessary for most people is gaining traction so when people start wandering around late next month I want to feel comfortable that I have protection almost at the same level as you and others got with the mRNA vaccine.

----------


## r3nov8or

There's so much fuss over COVID-19 vaccine. Yet we just take the flu vaccine we are given. I have respiratory conditions that mean I take my doctor's advice and get vaccinated. I've never questioned the flu vaccine - is there more than one option each year? This image is from my immunisation history within the Medicare app. I'd be interested in whether others have had different flu vaccines... In order 2019 2020 2021...

----------


## r3nov8or

> There's so much fuss over COVID-19 vaccine. Yet we just take the flu vaccine we are given. I have respiratory conditions that mean I take my doctor's advice and get vaccinated. I've never questioned the flu vaccine - is there more than one option each year? This image is from my immunisation history within the Medicare app. I'd be interested in whether others have had different flu vaccines... In order 2019 2020 2021...

  So, answering my own query, off to the TGA site and there are many flu vac for 2021.

----------


## John2b

It looks like the use of vaccine passports might not be the panacea that businesses are looking for. From page 8 of the Sun-Herald today:  Last weekend a battleground erupted on Arias Instagram account (a Sydney restaurant) when a post announced bookings would open to fully vaccinated diners from Sydneys projected opening day of October 18. The post was peppered with more than 10,000 comments, some joyful at the prospect of dining at Matt Morans flagship finediner again, but many more expressing horror at the discrimination.  In a typical comment, Instagram user Steve Abbott wrote: Will you be requiring proof of the flu vaccination as well? Any other transmissible illnesses? How about anyone on the paedophile register?? Segregation is not the answer and it is a disgrace.  Many made comparisons to Nazism and racial discrimination.

----------


## METRIX

> Actually for AZ, the difference between 4 weeks and 12 weeks is astoundingly massive and the studies show that. Sure it might keep you out of hospital but I want proper protection like others get with Pfizer and I have to wait for that. The feeling that boosters may not be necessary for most people is gaining traction so when people start wandering around late next month I want to feel comfortable that I have protection almost at the same level as you and others got with the mRNA vaccine.

  As I said earlier that's ok if you want to do that, nobody is stopping you from doing whatever you think is better for yourself, there is a bigger risk for that scenario if you were out in the community on a daily basis.
If you're happy to sit at home in an isolated situation and rarely go out, that can work for you. 
I'm talking about the majority of people especially in the LGA's they don't have the luxury of waiting 3 months between shot one and two, if we did that NSW would be in lockdown until early 2022 and the infection rates would go through the roof as well as hospitalisations, it would suit QLD and WA if NSW didn't reopen until mid 2022, actually I get the feeling both these states would like it if NSW never reopened. 
I can see VIC is heading down a path of no return, looking at their daily figures and where they are in the vaccine rollout, wouldn't be surprised if we see their figures surpass NSW daily of around 1200 over the coming weeks.
I hope not but it doesn't look good, 5 weeks behind where NSW is for 70% and nearly 8 weeks for second dose. 
VIC currently around 520 cases a day increasing just on 100 cases a day.

----------


## METRIX

> There's so much fuss over COVID-19 vaccine. Yet we just take the flu vaccine we are given. I have respiratory conditions that mean I take my doctor's advice and get vaccinated. I've never questioned the flu vaccine

  Exactly, why there is so much fuss over a covid vaccine astounds me, I haven't had flu vaccine for over ten years, not because I'm an anti-vaxxer I just never found the need for it.
The times I did take it, I got sick anyway so I didn't see the point of it, interesting to see the flu death rate over the last five years, where was all the hysteria in 2017 when 1181 people died from this and 2019 902 people. 
Did peoples lives all of a sudden become more important, Total covid related deaths since pandemic started is 1148, still less than 2017 flu related deaths.

----------


## Bros

> I'd be interested in whether others have had different flu vaccines... In order 2019 2020 2021...

----------


## Marc

Reno, the different brand of flu vaccine have never been a contention because they are all the same. a quadrivalent vaccine with 4 different strains that change every year according to more or less accurate predictions. Then you have the enhanced one for 65 plus, and the shingles to stop the reactivation of that virus in over 70 I believe. 
All of this is old school decades old research.  
The new vaccines are not proven for obvious reasons and are doing the research (read experimentation) with the population. I had the flu vaccine for the last 30 years and every year, had coworkers tell me matter of fact that the vaccine gave them the flu. Each to his own. Some are anti vaccine for a number of valid or imaginary reasons, others are just misinformed, yet with the new vaccine, the concerns are based on the almost nonexistent safety data, and the numerous cases of serious side effects. 
Sure, we have _some_ safety data *now* but this is an unprecedented case of experimentation with the population, and anyone has the right to object. 
Another fact that is obvious and that does not add credibility is the universal push for vaccination at all cost, for all ages, and the suppression of treatments with the dedication that should be reserved for terrorist. 
The only real reason ivermectin has been demonised is that the patent Merck held, expired in 1996. 
For those who repeat the notion that it is a horse deworming drug, implying it is unsafe for humans, do yourself a favour and read the following. Not many treatment, besides penicillin can claim the value and safety record of Ivermectin. 
Compare it with the useless poison Remdesivir administered currently to the poor sod that land in ICU with no say. It is ineffective and has atrocious side effects, like multiple organ failure, toxic for kidneys and liver... yet it is pedalled as the drug of choice. Why? You do the research. * PS  Discovered in the late-1970s, the pioneering drug ivermectin, a dihydro derivative of avermectin—originating solely from a single microorganism isolated at the Kitasato Institute, Tokyo, Japan from Japanese soil—has had an immeasurably beneficial impact in improving the lives and welfare of billions of people throughout the world. 
Originally introduced as a veterinary drug, it kills a wide range of internal and external parasites in commercial livestock and companion animals. It was quickly discovered to be ideal in combating two of the world’s most devastating and disfiguring diseases which have plagued the world’s poor throughout the tropics for centuries. 
It is now being used free-of-charge as the sole tool in campaigns to eliminate both diseases globally. It has also been used to successfully overcome several other human diseases and new uses for it are continually being found. This paper looks in depth at the events surrounding ivermectin’s passage from being a huge success in Animal Health into its widespread use in humans, a development which has led many to describe it as a “wonder” drug.  *Introduction*  There are few drugs that can seriously lay claim to the title of ‘Wonder drug’, penicillin and aspirin being two that have perhaps had greatest beneficial impact on the health and wellbeing of Mankind. But ivermectin can also be considered alongside those worthy contenders, based on its versatility, safety and the beneficial impact that it has had, and continues to have, worldwide—especially on hundreds of millions of the world’s poorest people.    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043740/  Alternatives?  Not many I was hopeful when the TV announced an article on Ivermectin yet it was another pathetic flop. Basically it said it is not safe and not proven for covid (of course it is not if you look into the wrong data) and then the icing on the cake ... it creates shortages for those who need it. Err ... I thought it was not safe for humans?  The problem is that it is cheap and many countries produce it and distribute it for free. So no commercial value, that is the reason. 
*PS 
Ivermectin  $15
Remdesivir $ 2,340

----------


## phild01

> I'm talking about the majority of people especially in the LGA's they don't have the luxury of waiting 3 months between shot one and two, if we did that NSW would be in lockdown until early 2022

  And why we should have let over 60's to have a choice. We now have Moderna (which is is what I was looking forward to) and we would have no concerns about that long delay between jabs. It is just one reason why AZ is second rate (a fact backed up by the proper data and studies).

----------


## Bros

> Sure, we have _some_ safety data *now* but this is an unprecedented case of experimentation with the population, and anyone has the right to object.

  I'm surprised at the number of people in my small circle of friends and relations who are both anti vax and anti this vax. 
My son is anti this vax as he said it has been developed to quick. 
My ex neighbour we met at the shop said she has had the vax but her husband said no way he is getting it. 
The bloke who gave me the batteries and his two kids are anti vax however they have given their kids the childhood vax.
The bloke who gave me the batteries has to be careful and he would have to be hesitant as he has a mechanical heart valve and is monthly having blood test for his warfin levels. 
If those numbers are repeated across the country 80% could be hard to obtain. 
This is even though you now have a choice of any vaccine in Queensland.

----------


## UseByDate

> This is even though you now have a choice of any vaccine in Queensland.

  Wow.
 I am in my mid 70s and had my second AZ vaccination in June. I will be spending Christmas in the Sunshine Coast hinterland this year if border crossing restrictions permit. Will I be able to get a Pfizer booster?

----------


## METRIX

> It looks like the use of vaccine passports might not be the panacea that businesses are looking for. From page 8 of the Sun-Herald today:Last weekend a battleground erupted on Aria’s Instagram account (a Sydney restaurant) when a post announced bookings would open to fully vaccinated diners from Sydney’s projected opening day of October 18. The post was peppered with more than 10,000 comments, some joyful at the prospect of dining at Matt Moran’s flagship finediner again, but many more expressing horror at the ‘‘discrimination’’.  In a typical comment, Instagram user Steve Abbott wrote: ‘‘Will you be requiring proof of the flu vaccination as well? Any other transmissible illnesses? How about anyone on the paedophile register?? Segregation is not the answer and it is a disgrace.’’  Many made comparisons to Nazism and racial discrimination.

  The ones who are complaining about it have probably never eaten there and never would have eaten there so it's irrelevant.
A three course meal is around $150 / four course $180, so it's on the higher side of dining out, not everyone is comfortable paying that much for a dining experience. 
I don't care either way, if the restaurants are mandated by gov't to only serve double vaxd then that's what they are required to do until things change. 
If the gov't doesn't mandate it, and the restaurant want's to only serve double vax, then that's the restaurant's prerogative, irrespective of what Instagram people say, it's their business they run it the way they see fit.
Nobody really cares what Facebook / Youtube / Instagram people say except other Facebook / Youtube / Instagram clowns. 
If you don't like it then boycott eating there, that's the simplest way to protest, time will tell come October 18 and onwards of how booked out they are. 
Just had a look at reservations, it appears they are getting booked out already, so a storm in a teacup.

----------


## Marc

It's overrated in my experience and only serves one purpose ... look at me look at me  :Smilie:

----------


## METRIX



----------


## Bros

> Wow.
>  I am in my mid 70s and had my second AZ vaccination in June. I will be spending Christmas in the Sunshine Coast hinterland this year if border crossing restrictions permit. Will I be able to get a Pfizer booster?

  Hang around a bit I'll have to consult the oracle.

----------


## Bart1080

> Did peoples lives all of a sudden become more important,  Total covid related deaths since pandemic started is 1148, still less than 2017 flu related deaths.

  The death from flue numbers have a bumper season every 2 years for the last 10 years (globally) ....so I suspect Australia is the same.  https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/past-seasons.html 
....not really a fair comparison of "weve had less COVID deaths than the flu in 2017" as the last 2 years have had various protection measures (mainly restriction of movement) that obviously didn't exist in 2017 but still COVID achieved a ~3,000% greater number of deaths than the flu.

----------


## UseByDate

> Reno, the different brand of flu vaccine have never been a contention because they are all the same. a quadrivalent vaccine with 4 different strains that change every year according to more or less accurate predictions.

  WHO predicts.

----------


## Marc

Update:
Had the test on the 8/9, received positive confirmation on the 9th, so my day 14 is the 22/9. 
THe nurse who called me two days ago didn't have the date since I was not on his computer ... (whaaat?) so when I explained the dates, his quick calculation was ... "So your releaseday is the 24" ... bummer maths will cost me two extra days, plus who knows how long to get the email ... :Frown: . 
Anyway, we are both well, no symptoms at all. Smell coming back here and there. One good thing is that my poo doesn't smell anymore.  :2thumbsup:  
Text message to my wife states ... don't request negative test from patient as a condition to see them since patient that had covid and recovered will test "positive" for 3 month. 
So much for the one that rung me last week and told me I have to go for a test at day 12. I wonder what would happen if I did a test at day 12 and had the inevitable positive. Will they ask me to self isolate for another 14 days and so at perpetuity?  :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

Good to hear you're going Ok, Marc.

----------


## Bros

A bit more stupidity up here. Yesterday I did some gardening and took a trailer load of green waste to the dump and the gate keeper held out a piece of cardboard with a QR code on it to scan in.
The dump is open air, next thing we will have to scan before we can go to the park or beach.

----------


## UseByDate

> A bit more stupidity up here. Yesterday I did some gardening and took a trailer load of green waste to the dump and the gate keeper held out a piece of cardboard with a QR code on it to scan in.
> The dump is open air, next thing we will have to scan before we can go to the park or beach.

  Even more confusing. 
We have no in the wild covid in SA. I take my dog to the local park for exercise everyday as do many people. People socialise and dogs get to run. Most evenings a junior football club uses the park. The football club have no indoor facilities other than hut used for storing equipment and two small changing rooms that are not used because the children arrive in their football kit. Ie all activities are  outdoors.
 If you are in the park because of the football activities you have to register your presence using the QR app. If you are in the same park to exercise your dog (or for any other reason) you don't. You can stand and watch the football game next to any club member spectator and as long as you have a dog on a lead there is no requirement to QR register. Only club members are required to QR register.

----------


## Marc

Must fit the dog with mask?

----------


## UseByDate

> must fit the dog with mask?

  lol

----------


## Bart1080

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxX7Tv9Z8ks 
this explains the rules "exactly".  Football rules @ 40sec.

----------


## METRIX

> Update:
> Had the test on the 8/9, received positive confirmation on the 9th, so my day 14 is the 22/9. 
> THe nurse who called me two days ago didn't have the date since I was not on his computer ... (whaaat?) so when I explained the dates, his quick calculation was ... "So your releaseday is the 24" ... bummer maths will cost me two extra days, plus who knows how long to get the email .... 
> Anyway, we are both well, no symptoms at all. Smell coming back here and there. One good thing is that my poo doesn't smell anymore.  
> Text message to my wife states ... don't request negative test from patient as a condition to see them since patient that had covid and recovered will test "positive" for 3 month. 
> So much for the one that rung me last week and told me I have to go for a test at day 12. I wonder what would happen if I did a test at day 12 and had the inevitable positive. Will they ask me to self isolate for another 14 days and so at perpetuity?

  
What version vaccine did you have ?
How long between first and second dose ?
How long after second dose did you catch it ?

----------


## Marc

Pfizer,4 weeks, 2 month

----------


## METRIX

> Pfizer,4 weeks, 2 month

  Good to know it sounds like it did it's job.

----------


## phild01

However I suspect your exposure was ever present rather than casual.

----------


## METRIX

I think Melbourne has finally had enough, I assume the ones smashing the town up are not Tradies but Ant-Vaxers dressed up to look the part ? 
Warning language in below video. 
NSW just got on with it, the guys got the vaccine and got back to work at 50% capacity, from Monday 27th 100% capacity for construction, with some rules.  https://twitter.com/i/status/1440194156643557383  https://www.9news.com.au/national/co...5-c1658adc4406

----------


## ForeverYoung

I hit play on this.
I wasn't sure whether to be impressed or scared. Genomic epidemiology of novel coronavirus - Global subsampling Nextstrain / ncov / gisaid / global
A virus is gonna virus I guess.

----------


## johnc

> I think Melbourne has finally had enough, I assume the ones smashing the town up are not Tradies but Ant-Vaxers dressed up to look the part ? 
> Warning language in below video. 
> NSW just got on with it, the guys got the vaccine and got back to work at 50% capacity, from Monday 27th 100% capacity for construction, with some rules.  https://twitter.com/i/status/1440194156643557383  https://www.9news.com.au/national/co...5-c1658adc4406

  
latest demands from those tradie protestors

----------


## Marc

Doctor explains treatment. "Dr" Zuckermoron says it's "partly false information"  https://youtu.be/QAHi3lX3oGM

----------


## Marc

Good news.
Day 14 and I had my out of jail call right on time. The police dude that called yesterday explained only a verbal confirmation is required and that the letter some employers may want to see, will be emailed tomorrow. My wife had hers sent today.  
Besides possible employment compliance, the value of the letter is in the last paragraph. The perons out of isolation is exempted from test requirements for 3 month since the test will give false positive in that period.  
Feels weird to plan to go out. 
First walk out of the house tomorrow will be a long one with my dog.  :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

Good news Marc, I bet the dog will be pleased too! :Biggrin:

----------


## Bros

Well you won't have to worry about a booster as you got the best one all be at a price

----------


## METRIX



----------


## METRIX

> Well you won't have to worry about a booster as you got the best one all be at a price

  What is the price you are referring to ?

----------


## r3nov8or

> What is the price you are referring to ?

  Having experienced the disease and 14 days in iso, I suspect

----------


## Bros

> Having experienced the disease and 14 days in iso, I suspect

  Yes he had to endure the results of catching the virus and from what I have read it gives you superior immunity than having a booster.

----------


## Marc

Yes, that is what it seems, but don't get too hang up  numbers. Individual immunity is just that, individual. Making those numbers extensive to everyone, is based on data we don't have, or rather that is insufficient to make assumptions.
In a few years we will know more.
As for being sick ... well, I had cases of flu years ago and with the vaccine, that were far worse than this. This was a couple of days feeling mildly sick and unmotivated. 
Not saying others will necessarily experience the same.
Perhaps the most annoying feature was the loss of my sense of smell. Coming slowly back now. 
It was a heads up for me. Being vaccinated does not make us immune in the real sense of the word. It just prevents serious consequences. Perhaps for the majority that are only marginally exposed, it means being out of the fry. For us, being that my wife is still and will remain in the fireline for some time, it is good protection, but we still need to minimise exposure. 
Now that the market for vaccines seems to be reaching its peak, and all the players are busy making money, finally treatments for those who get sick, that were blocked and suppressed and censored so furiously since vaccines become available, will slowly be allowed to market their products. It is a vile commercial world we live in.

----------


## METRIX

> The only real reason ivermectin has been demonised is that the patent Merck held, expired in 1996. 
> For those who repeat the notion that it is a horse deworming drug, implying it is unsafe for humans, do yourself a favour and read the following. Not many treatment, besides penicillin can claim the value and safety record of Ivermectin. 
> Compare it with the useless poison Remdesivir administered currently to the poor sod that land in ICU with no say. It is ineffective and has atrocious side effects, like multiple organ failure, toxic for kidneys and liver... yet it is pedalled as the drug of choice. Why? You do the research. * PS  Discovered in the late-1970s, the pioneering drug ivermectin, a dihydro derivative of avermectinoriginating solely from a single microorganism isolated at the Kitasato Institute, Tokyo, Japan from Japanese soilhas had an immeasurably beneficial impact in improving the lives and welfare of billions of people throughout the world. 
> Originally introduced as a veterinary drug, it kills a wide range of internal and external parasites in commercial livestock and companion animals. It was quickly discovered to be ideal in combating two of the worlds most devastating and disfiguring diseases which have plagued the worlds poor throughout the tropics for centuries. 
> It is now being used free-of-charge as the sole tool in campaigns to eliminate both diseases globally. It has also been used to successfully overcome several other human diseases and new uses for it are continually being found. This paper looks in depth at the events surrounding ivermectins passage from being a huge success in Animal Health into its widespread use in humans, a development which has led many to describe it as a wonder drug.  *Introduction*  There are few drugs that can seriously lay claim to the title of Wonder drug, penicillin and aspirin being two that have perhaps had greatest beneficial impact on the health and wellbeing of Mankind. But ivermectin can also be considered alongside those worthy contenders, based on its versatility, safety and the beneficial impact that it has had, and continues to have, worldwideespecially on hundreds of millions of the worlds poorest people.    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043740/  Alternatives?  Not many I was hopeful when the TV announced an article on Ivermectin yet it was another pathetic flop. Basically it said it is not safe and not proven for covid (of course it is not if you look into the wrong data) and then the icing on the cake ... it creates shortages for those who need it. Err ... I thought it was not safe for humans?  The problem is that it is cheap and many countries produce it and distribute it for free. So no commercial value, that is the reason. 
> *PS 
> Ivermectin  $15
> Remdesivir $ 2,340

----------


## METRIX

> Now that the market for vaccines seems to be reaching its peak, and all the players are busy making money, finally treatments for those who get sick, that were blocked and suppressed and censored so furiously since vaccines become available, will slowly be allowed to market their products. It is a vile commercial world we live in.

----------


## Marc

So using high doses of a version of the drug designed to treat horses is not safe for human. I go with that. That is why they make ivermectin for humans.
Don't you think that the reason people resort to use vet supplies is because their doctor has been threatened with deregistration and so they turn to the local vet?  
There is ample safety data for ivermectin, yet not enough convincing evidence of high efficacy against covid, only marginal at this stage. The overwhelming effort to suppress _any_ form of treatment for covid outside vaccination is a criminal act designed to maximise vaccine sales.  
The surge of "new" antivirals now that the market of vaccines is in decline is purely marketing strategy.

----------


## phild01

Although the jury is still out on ivermectin, many say the retraction speaks to the difficulty of assessing research during a pandemic. “*I personally have lost all faith in the results of [ivermectin] trials published to date,”* says Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, an epidemiologist at the University of Wollongong in Australia who helped Lawrence to analyse the Elgazzar paper. It’s not yet possible to assess whether ivermectin works against COVID-19 because the data currently available are not of sufficiently high quality, he says, adding that he is reading other ivermectin papers in his spare time, looking for signs of fraud or other problems. Flawed ivermectin preprint highlights challenges of COVID drug studies (nature.com)  Support for the drug follows the political divide in the US, while similarly in Australia it is championed by several right-wing politicians Reality check: There's still no compelling evidence for ivermectin as a treatment for COVID-19 - ABC News  One of the first fraudulent ivermectin studies was revealed just a few months into the pandemic, before it was even being widely used or promoted to treat the virus. That study found ivermectin was leading to improved and reduced mortality in hospitalised Covid-19 patients around the world. The paper was eventually retracted by the medical journal that published it after the data was found to have been falsified and the patients nonexistent. Fraudulent ivermectin studies open up new battleground between science and misinformation | Health | The Guardian

----------


## METRIX

> Don't you think that the reason people resort to use vet supplies is because their doctor has been threatened with deregistration and so they turn to the local vet? 
> .

  No I don't think that, where is the proof of this ? because this drug is already approved for use in humans for certain problems. 
It's most likely, people are purchasing it from vet supplies because they are brainwashed by anti-vax nutters and the wealth of mostly rubbish information available online, their doctors won't prescribe it because they know it hasn't been proved to be effective. 
It's the same as a cult or religion, the uneducated are the victims, they are being tricked into believing in something that's not there, that is solely based on fear of the unknown or gov't hatred. 
Look at Melbourne as a classic example, they have lost the plot down there, this is all based on hatred of the gov't.
Anti-vax is getting out of control, it has nothing to do with vaccines or wellbeing, it just a money raising exercise. 
Like anything Marc, you will always find some studies for and against any argument "planted" by supposed experts if you go looking for it this is what the internet is renown for. 
Is this evidence backed by Science or other peer bodies, most likely not, It's roots are usually from conspiracy and gov't hatred. 
This is a Renovation Forum not a conspiracy forum.
Below is a capture from post no 4, the last line stating factual and no personal bias really needs to be kept in check here, this is not directed at you, but to all of us.   
Below is an interesting video on how these Anti Vax big wigs are getting what they want, which is money, the only health they are interested in, is how healthy is your bank account.

----------


## Bros

> Like anything Marc, you will always find some studies for and against any argument "planted" by supposed experts if you go looking for it this is what the internet is renown for. 
> Is this evidence backed by Science or other peer bodies, most likely not, It's roots are usually from conspiracy and gov't hatred. 
> This is a Renovation Forum not a conspiracy forum.
> Below is a capture from post no 4, the last line stating factual and no personal bias really needs to be kept in check here, this is not directed at you, but to all of us.

  In most if not all posts there are some facts mixed with fiction and for the mods to sort out which is which is impossible. The ABC and Snopes have people employed to investigate claims and make a report on its validity us mods have no way of doing that even if another poster give their evidence it is false who do we as mods or the other posters or the non member who view these posts believe. 
As I said I believed there is some value in a thread like this but maybe I am wrong and it should be sent to the thread graveyard.

----------


## Marc

> ... where is the proof of this ?

  Well ... I read emails from the RCGP stating just that, but you have to take my word for it. 
I agree that anti-vax is an industry that uses ignorance and fanatics for their cheerleaders jobs. 
However the "other side" is just as corrupt and criminal unfortunately, and with way more resources and power and the ultimate weapon ... the "conspiracy theory" label. 
This pandemic will be studied in university in 50 years time, as an example of government abuse, fake news, manipulation Iatrogenia and even murder ... as well as an example of how the chance of making trillions allowed several organisations to produce vaccines in historically record time.  
It is what it is. Perhaps the most positive side is the fact that we can talk freely about it ... well almost.   :2thumbsup:

----------


## Bedford

> This is a Renovation Forum not a conspiracy forum.
> Below is a capture from post no 4, the last line stating factual and no personal bias really needs to be kept in check here, this is not directed at you, but to all of us.

  I don't mean to piss on your parade, but this thread, and the previous  one that was removed to the admin forum, are/were both in the "At the end of  the day" forum. 
The 'At the end of the day" forum is a sub forum of Renovate Forum and was set up specifically for Off Topic type discussions. 
 In this forum you can unwind and share what's on your mind.   
That says you can say what you think, no-one has to agree with it, but you are (were) allowed to say what you think. 
This forum was never intended to be over moderated and it's purpose as much as anything was to keep off topic discussions out of the other threads. :Smilie:

----------


## Bros

> Below is an interesting video on how these Anti Vax big wigs are getting what they want, which is money, the only health they are interested in, is how healthy is your bank account.

    Jimmy Swaggert comes to mind.

----------


## METRIX

> Jimmy Swaggert comes to mind.

  And Carl Lentz, they are all the same

----------


## METRIX

> an example of how the chance of making trillions allowed several organisations to produce vaccines in historically record time.  
> It is what it is. Perhaps the most positive side is the fact that we can talk freely about it ... well almost.

  So are you saying these companies should not have made any vaccines ? or should have held onto them until 2030 so they could do exhaustive testing, if they didn't make them you may not be here to post on this forum. 
I don't get why there is such a problem with how quickly they made a vaccine, things are advancing at phenomenal rates in every area these days, especially the medical area.
Just because it took 10 years in the older days to possibly make a medication for something doesn't meant it has to take that long to make one these days. 
Or are you suggesting the whole thing is a scam, and big pharma developed the covid in a lab, released it elsewhere, already had a vaccine, then released it to the world as a miracle in record time just to make mega money ?.
I guess that's feasible but probably unlikely. 
Who would have thought a few years ago non astronauts would be flying to space for joy flights ? well they are nowadays. 
With previous outbreaks of various diseases, the scientists are learning with the aid of expensive scientific equipment how things work, it probably wasn't too hard to make a vaccine that was somewhat effective and safe due to terabytes of data they must have access to nowadays that never existed in the older days, as well as the laboratory equipment they have nowadays that probably didn't exist even 5 years ago. 
Hollywood has a lot to answer for, they make all these Sci-Fi movies showing people in suspended bubbles being used for their energy to power the corrupt world by the pharma companies.
Too many people believe fantasy movies to be what's really going to happen. 
I believe with all the new "smart devices" flooding every part of our lives, from a phone, to a microwave, and even smart clothing, these are making humans more and more stupid every day.

----------


## Marc

Ha ha Metrix, you have a fervid imagination.
The simple observation is that the record time was achieved because there was a massive never seen before pot of gold at stake.  Nothing else. 
You can see it as a positive result of free market. Or with cynicism that only monetary rewards motivate this achievements. 
Considering that even Robert Koch was a bit of a crook, there is nothing new.

----------


## PhilT2

> You can see it as a positive result of free market.

  That "free market" you speak of got $US18 billion of govt money to motivate them. Most things happen quicker if you throw a big bucket of money at it. Volunteers for an experimental drug trial are easier to recruit if you offer them more money and there's an unlimited budget for staff.

----------


## John2b

The value of global Coca Cola sales makes Covid vaccines look like small business, and then there's Macdonald's, Pepsi, Starbucks, and Facebook...

----------


## Marc

*COVID-19 vaccination in NSW*   25,942doses administered by NSW Health in the past 24 hours1 3,491,835doses administered by NSW Health since 22 February 20212 6,250,994doses administered by the GP network and other providers since 22 February 20213 9,742,829doses administered in NSW since 22 February 2021 85.7%of people 16 and over have had one dose 60.4%of people 16 and over have had two doses   Refers to COVID-19 vaccine doses administered Refe 8pm 26 September to 8pm 27 September 2021. Total for NSW Health is as of 8pm 27 September 2021. Total for the GP network and other providers is as of 11:59pm 26 September 2021.hisSo ti  What the above tells me is that we will achieve 90% fully vaccinated eventually, may be even this year.  The last 10% will be the hardest, with 3 to 5% most likely unachievable.  Nothing new, if infant vaccination is anything to go by.  My brush with the illness, made me see aspects of human nature I am unfamiliar with. Armed conflict draws people together, illness seems to scare people away.  If you believe you have friends, nothing like covid to test who they are.  From the dozen or so people that know me well, only one called two weeks after my positive test, and only after checking with my daughter to see if I was able to take a phone call. Fascinating what propaganda and ignorance can achieve.   Yesterday I was working on the back deck, replacing some rotten boards, and the neighbor showed up. Keeping a safe 3m distance he asked me if I "had been cleared". Ha ha, love him, he quickly passed on to explain that the delta variant comes from the vaccine. "Look at you, you had the vaccine and then you came ill". What do you answer to that? F... you comes to mind, but no. The guy lives alone, has a mate that sends him emails with all possible conspiracies true and imaginary. He is busy enough.  
The tales from the surgery my wife brings every day are interesting. Some of her patient who were saying they would only have Pfizer, now that it is available turn to, "can I have an exemption" ... A friend of hers who is a specialist employed at the hospital, opted for leave without pay, rather then have the mandatory vaccine. I think that it was a mistake to mandate vaccination and it was a mistake to make it free.
 It should have been available widely in all chemist for $10 ... or may be $50  
Orson Welles was spot on *“We’re born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for a moment that we’re not alone.”― Orson Welles*

----------


## METRIX

> What the above tells me is that we will achieve 90% fully vaccinated eventually, may be even this year.  The last 10% will be the hardest, with 3 to 5% most likely unachievable.

  Was watching something, for NSW opening back up, they said the Vaccinated / Un-Vaccinated freedoms thingamabob, mentioned a proportion of the un-vaccinated will just wait it out for the extra four weeks so they get the same freedoms as the vaccinated, which could be true. 
With construction back at 100%, even if un-vaccinated will be interesting to see how many outbreaks occur. 
At least the current daily cases in NSW are dropping, Vic has now surpassed NSW on daily cases, with their 2nd dose vaccination lagging a long way behind NSW wouldn't be surprised if their daily gets over the 1000 mark within a few days, I hope not but it looks to be heading that way.

----------


## Marc

Something to ponder https://youtu.be/t8uKc7kdOvE

----------


## phild01

Marc, that is one and half hours, can you just indicate what is worth pondering about!

----------


## METRIX

> ... A friend of hers who is a specialist employed at the hospital, opted for leave without pay, rather then have the mandatory vaccine.

  That's her problem, quite sure she will be back soon enough when she starts to run out of money, can't stay on leave without pay indefinitely, or you can it's called unemployed. 
Was doing a job the other day and the owner said her friend has sold her house in Sydney and moving to Qld purely because she said it's safer up there and didn't want the vaccine, she has known her for 20 years and never mentioned about selling up prior to this. 
Well they cant keep the borders locked forever, if you don't get vaccinated you will be at risk no matter where you are, so in the end she is making the move for no real reason other than fear, I guess if she want's to live in fear she is going to the right place. 
Quick everybody run for the hills, QLD recorded one new case, I can't believe they even get any airtime for this.
All this fuss over nothing while the Tourist industry is looking at another Billion $ loss this year.   Queensland health authorities say there is "increased" concern about the state's COVID-19 situation after the state recorded one new locally acquired case. 
One of the keypoints below from the Chief Scary Officer.   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-29/qld-coronavirus-one-new-community-case/100499528

----------


## sol381

Its mental. 1 or 2 new cases and they lose their @@@@. They know who this bloke is so just get him to isolate for 2 weeks. Problem is it seems he contacted it from a pilot or flight attendant. We are so worried about state borders, what about international borders. This isnt the first time someone got covid from international flight staff, wont be the last. Every person, pilot, flight attendant, passenger etc, should be tested coming into the country, should they not?

----------


## Marc

Yes, it's a seminar for doctors in the epicenter of covid in Sydney. I doubt you will find any of this information anywhere else. 
It provides the information politicians don't want you to have.
Basically the health system is far from sufficient and the main hospitals are overrun, understaffed and have cut out most of everyday activities to attend to bloody covid. 
Don't break a leg, have a heart attack or breast screening nor anything else. Just get Covid and you will be dandy.

----------


## Marc

> That's her problem, quite sure she will be back soon enough when she starts to run out of money, can't stay on leave without pay indefinitely, or you can it's called unemployed.

  She is not the only one.
The way I see the current situation ... I understand the fear towards the vaccines. It's a fact that they were rushed, untested and most likely are not telling us half of the potential long term detrimental effects. 
However, we need to live here, moving is a stupid idea unless you manage to live on a self supporting island. So vaccination it is, and will be from now on every year. Get used to it. 
Can someone survive without vaccination? Possible if you are young and healthy, lean and without any health complains ... possible. Care to spin the wheel?  
Risks? A short list of side effects most easily treatable. Yes, some people die from the vaccine. A minuscule proportion. Some people get bitten by sharks, hit by cars, poisoned by the wrong mushroom, and have an allergic reaction to vaping and earrings. 
And yes, pharma is making a mint out of this, yet so is Mackers. On the weight of evidence, Mackers is way more detrimental. 
Watch out!  :Smilie:

----------


## ForeverYoung

> ...
> Basically the health system is far from sufficient and the main hospitals are overrun, understaffed and have cut out most of everyday activities to attend to bloody covid. 
> Don't break a leg, have a heart attack or breast screening nor anything else. Just get Covid and you will be dandy.

  It takes me 1½ -  2 weeks to get to see my GP.
And that's in WA - when I asked reception they said busy with vaxes, but the GP said lack of docs.
Same for any scans/tests, weeks. Specialists, longer.
And it's common knowledge about the hospitals here being in trouble.   

> ...At least the current daily cases in NSW are dropping, Vic has now surpassed NSW on daily cases, with their 2nd dose vaccination lagging a long way behind NSW wouldn't be surprised if their daily gets over the 1000 mark within a few days, I hope not but it looks to be heading that way.

  Didn't take long eh?   

> *...* My brush with the illness, made me see aspects of human nature I am unfamiliar with. Armed conflict draws people together, illness seems to scare people away.  If you believe you have friends, nothing like covid to test who they are ...

   

> The way I see the current situation ... I understand the fear towards the vaccines. It's a fact that they were rushed, untested and most likely are not telling us half of the potential long term detrimental effects.

  Yep, it's the fear thingy.
Politicians and the Powerful understand it is their best weapon.
When AZ first appeared the media ran the fear headlines about clots, instead of treating people like adults and explaining the risks. So people waited for Pfizer. When the risks about Pfizer emerged media had learnt their lesson (or were told) - let's not scare the people away from the vaccine drive. I get it. We are herd animals after all. Ironic that AZ might provide longer term protection than Pfizer. 
There are a few around me who are anti covid vaccine (one an international pilot who will quit when forced) - they are not anti-vaxers; just this particular one.
I know some intelligent people who have had the vaccine (but didn't do so blindly) knowing it is a risk assessment issue - one I mentioned earlier was my dentist who will still see unvaxed patients.
Me? I am double vaxed AZ. But have had side effects for 4 months now (in short I have long covid without the covid). No one official wants to know officially, so those with side effects are driven to other forums to try and get help - mainly social media, which can be useful but is also full of drongos. [Some say the best way to disparage a good idea is to get a drongo to promulgate it].
The anti vaxers in my circle are my new besties  :Smilie:  because they think I am evidence of their concerns. And yes, maybe. I figure that the numbers are small that might be having side effects. We might never know actual numbers. 
The pro vaxers in my circle are totally dismissive of my AZ reaction - looking for everything else to blame. As am I.
But when they suggest alternative reasons and I say I have been tested for that and nope, they come up with something else. Nope again.
I am still pursuing answers ... meanwhile social media (mainly UK with big AZ there) are saying me-too.
My GP says _correlation isn't causation_ so on we go.

----------


## Marc

> My GP says _correlation isn't causation_

  He is right. Look at me, had the vaccine and covid 2 month later.
Obviously the vaccine caused covid  :Smilie:

----------


## ForeverYoung

> He is right. Look at me, had the vaccine and covid 2 month later.
> Obviously the vaccine caused covid

  Yes, GP is right.
I am quite happy to look elsewhere.

----------


## Bros

> All this fuss over nothing while the Tourist industry is looking at another Billion $ loss this year.

   I'm not entirely sure that is the case from my observations and first and second hand knowledge. 
Tourist industry in a lot of places is doing extremely well. The western Queensland has had a record number of visitors this year. Recently I tried to get into two coastal apartments out of school holiday with a month notice and they were full. 
When I was in Cairns a couple of years ago I went down to the wharf to see those going on reef trips and it was overrun with Chinese visitors, these wont be coming back any time soon. The Chinese tourists visit the Gold Coast then Cairns on their whirlwind tours. In the same year I went to Magnetic Island and it was full of backpackers who are not flushed with cash and don't spend up big.  
I think a lot of those with money in their pockets are somewhat "gun shy" in going to restaurants for fear of catching the virus whether vaccinated or not.
I was talking to a caravanning friend of mine (who lives in Orange but is in St George waiting for the border to open) and he has come back from western Queensland where he tours every year and he has never seen crowds like it the free camps were full up by 10am and the caravan parks are full to capacity to the stage where the council have opened up the showgrounds.

----------


## METRIX

> I'm not entirely sure that is the case from my observations and first and second hand knowledge. 
> Tourist industry in a lot of places is doing extremely well. The western Queensland has had a record number of visitors this year. Recently I tried to get into two coastal apartments out of school holiday with a month notice and they were full. 
> When I was in Cairns a couple of years ago I went down to the wharf to see those going on reef trips and it was overrun with Chinese visitors, these wont be coming back any time soon. The Chinese tourists visit the Gold Coast then Cairns on their whirlwind tours. In the same year I went to Magnetic Island and it was full of backpackers who are not flushed with cash and don't spend up big.  
> I think a lot of those with money in their pockets are somewhat "gun shy" in going to restaurants for fear of catching the virus whether vaccinated or not.
> I was talking to a caravanning friend of mine (who lives in Orange but is in St George waiting for the border to open) and he has come back from western Queensland where he tours every year and he has never seen crowds like it the free camps were full up by 10am and the caravan parks are full to capacity to the stage where the council have opened up the showgrounds.

  There was some head of tourism guy for QLD on the morning news, saying the tourism industry is in desperate need of people from NSW / VIC to get up to QLD, he said if they have another Christmas like last it will be a Billion $ loss.
He was saying booking are at maximum 40% by local Queenslanders, and want's to get interstate people in there ASAP. 
Then this article says it's booming for locals ????  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-...kyard/12712938

----------


## METRIX

> It takes me 1½ -  2 weeks to get to see my GP.
> And that's in WA - when I asked reception they said busy with vaxes, but the GP said lack of docs.
> Same for any scans/tests, weeks. Specialists, longer.
> And it's common knowledge about the hospitals here being in trouble.

  I was able to see either my normal GP, or a new GP, I chose to go to a new GP as I wasn't 100% happy with my normal one for various reasons, I was able to book an appointment within 2 days, the doctor was really good.
 They are also a very busy Pfizer / AZ vaccine outlet, they have 2 nurses specifically giving vaccines, they are very efficient, you are in and out in under two minutes.  
I also booked in for a blood test on Saturday morning as had to fast, I booked it on Thursday afternoon.
After my vaccine I had to go for a Ultrasound due to lumps coming up, I was able to book in to one of the busier scanning places within 1 day, then back to the GP the next day with the results. 
When I turned up for the scans there were about 15 people waiting, with more coming in the door as I waited, they all were dealt with very quickly.
I only had to wait for 2-3 minutes over my appointment time to see the specialist. 
Ended up being a reaction to the Pfizer vaccine, it went away after about two weeks, then came back after the second vaccine, it went away again after a few days. 
Sounds like your system is under the pump already, with no covid cases taking up valuable resources.
It's been long suggested QLD and WA are so stick on border closures due to a health system that wouldn't cope with outbreaks like in Sydney or Melbourne, not sure if it's true but sounds like it might be.   

> Didn't take long eh?

  I know, it jumped 500 in a day, they are putting it down to lots of gatherings for the footy spreading it like wildfire, predictions were for it to be 1400 - 2900 a day around Oct 19 - 31,.
Unfortunately they have already exceeded it at 1438 today, they may have to revise these figures now, I hope it doesn't get really bad as Melbourne has already been through enough crap. 
I think everyone is doing it tough down there, it's being ruined by a small selfish minority who can't do what they are asked.
Such as the whackers that lied to get into WA so they could go to the footy, then posted it all over social media, real smart guys you got arrested and thrown in the clink for a few weeks.  https://www.watoday.com.au/national/...28-p58vhe.html

----------


## Bros

> He was saying booking are at maximum 40% by local Queenslanders, and want's to get interstate people in there ASAP. 
> Then this article says it's booming for locals ????  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-...kyard/12712938

  Its hard to know what or who to believe. 
A interesting couple of days coming as they don't want to lock down with the NRL finals even the alternative site has a question mark but footballers get special concessions.

----------


## Bart1080

> I was able to book an appointment within 2 days, the doctor was really good.

  Our normal doc, min 1 week and can be up to 2 weeks
Specialists, 2 to 6 weeks.  Physio as an example is currently 4 weeks.     

> It's been long suggested QLD and WA are so stick on border closures due to a health system that wouldn't cope with outbreaks like in Sydney or Melbourne, not sure if it's true but sounds like it might be.

  Those that have worked in the health system (WA & QLD) here in VIC are all saying the same thing    

> I know, it jumped 500 in a day, they are putting it down to lots of gatherings for the footy spreading it like wildfire, predictions were for it to be 1400 - 2900 a day around Oct 19 - 31,.
> Unfortunately they have already exceeded it at 1438 today, they may have to revise these figures now, I hope it doesn't get really bad as Melbourne has already been through enough crap. 
> I think everyone is doing it tough down there, it's being ruined by a small selfish minority who can't do what they are asked.
> Such as the whackers that lied to get into WA so they could go to the footy, then posted it all over social media, real smart guys you got arrested and thrown in the clink for a few weeks.

  Yep, no excuse for those aholes that go interstate.
But a lot of us are just simply over it (right or wrong) , even though COVID is badly affecting the health system in more ways than the ave person isnt simply aware 
- ambulances is more common than you think with taking 1 hour to get to some people that simply die before they get there
- some surgeons rushing in ops before the elective surgery 50% reduction ...without testing and in some cases putting the patient in 24 hours earlier (like a BS 24 hour quarantine)  taking a bed from someone that needs it
- every COVID patient taking more time to barrier nurse, taking away nurses from other would be patients etc etc  
In terms of doing the wrong thing, out here in the country (even though were classed as metro...20KM from the nearest true metro region) so no visiting:
Well, never seen more people in a single weekend than the previous friggin 9 months....righty or wrongly!!!
- picked up some hay and came back with the money.  We all had a couple of drinks outside just happy to be talking to "someone" for a couple of hours
- dropped in to a distant neighbor for a quick single beer outside under the trees and a 30min chat of which he has been trying to do the same
- dropped in to the neighbor doctor to ask a COVID question about the possibility of slotting in the previous guy for a vax, got invited in for a few drinks over a couple of hours of great conversation
...all of the above within 2km of my place.  
 Well, yesterday my sons work told us a worker at the factory arrived sick on Monday and was promptly sent straight home to be tested....positive. 
Well F$%^ me, was the first thought.  Been doing the right thing for near eternity and have one weekend of brief mostly outside socialising with great neighbors I've not seen for so long and the S@#t hits the friggen fan! 
- The household all gets tested and comes back today as negative...will need another test in 12 days
- make phone calls to tell the neighbor's the "good" news, none were worried, they are all vaxed bar 1 but in the back of my mind if positive, thinking how it could affect the doctor, the hospital and her patients etc etc
- meanwhile the son is in the granny flat isolating possibly for 2 weeks or maybe until all the tests come back negative from the factory.  He's going through a bit of crap and the last thing he needs is to be on his own for 2 weeks
- and we now need to remain in isolation for 2 weeks...true isolation where I cant even pop into the local IGA or hardware store...the only 2 F#$%en shops I've been to all year. 
So can I understand peoples frustration, you bet ya, even though its the wrong thing (currently).  At some stage soon.... we all just need to get on livin and hope for the best!!!
Once we reach the magic vax %, may as well just open up and just deal with it.

----------


## Bros

> Something to ponder https://youtu.be/t8uKc7kdOvE

  Interesting talk. The first speaker was talking up the AstraZeneca and stats the second speaker put up shows there is not one positive feature to the vaccine. 
Good video takes time to watch thought.

----------


## Marc

My wife needs to sit through them every week, I get to listen like passive smoking  :Smilie:

----------


## r3nov8or

Is it time for a Welcome To NSW (ie govt corruption) thread?

----------


## Bros

> Is it time for a Welcome To NSW (ie govt corruption) thread?

  No thanks.

----------


## r3nov8or

> no thanks.

  Spoiled sport  :Biggrin:

----------


## Marc

Considering the timing, (a few month short of Gladis' 5 year for super purposes), and Icac's track record of balloony accusations (A bottle of Grange?)  
What matters now is who will replace Gladys and if the change will mean a change in the politics of public health. 
Politics and medicine produce a truly atrocious mix.

----------


## phild01

The new to be  leader apparently is anti-lockdown so brace.

----------


## Marc

Yes, an opportunity for bad cop good cop no doubt. Didn't I say so before?

----------


## Bros

What's the future for people who have had the AstraZeneca as all you hear about is boosters for Pfizer but nothing on the Astra. Is it going to be like the Holden car and just stop leaving the customers wondering. 
From Marc's video at 1:05:20 is says that boosters for Vector vaccines are essentially useless due to resistance so do those who got the Astra in good faith now need to revaccinate with a different vaccine?

----------


## UseByDate

> What's the future for people who have had the AstraZeneca as all you hear about is boosters for Pfizer but nothing on the Astra. Is it going to be like the Holden car and just stop leaving the customers wondering. 
> From Marc's video at 1:05:20 is says that boosters for Vector vaccines are essentially useless due to resistance so do those who got the Astra in good faith now need to revaccinate with a different vaccine?

  Not AZ in general.
AZ is offered you had an adverse reaction to Pfizer. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-booster-dose-resources/covid-19-vaccination-a-guide-to-booster-vaccination

----------


## Bros

> Not AZ in general.
> AZ is offered you had an adverse reaction to Pfizer. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccination-booster-dose-resources/covid-19-vaccination-a-guide-to-booster-vaccination

   Nothing like that I have heard in Australia. The first use of the vaccine was in Feb and the 3 mths would be up in April so the early AZ vaccine patients would be getting pretty close to needing a booster. 
I had heard that the extra Pfizer doses would be for boosters but other than that nothing. 
Seems like I said before the AstraZeneca has run its race and will be part of medical history.

----------


## UseByDate

> Nothing like that I have heard in Australia. The first use of the vaccine was in Feb and the 3 mths would be up in April so the early AZ vaccine patients would be getting pretty close to needing a booster. 
> I had heard that the extra Pfizer doses would be for boosters but other than that nothing. 
> Seems like I said before the AstraZeneca has run its race and will be part of medical history.

  Australia has not decided yet whether or not we are going to be offered boosters. Other countries that are ahead in their vaccine roll out are, so I suspect (read-willing to wager a large amount of money) that we will. The offer will likely be targeted to certain groups eg age. From what I have read, AZ and Pfizer are effective at reducing the risk of contracting Covid and considerably reducing the risk of serious illness for at least 6 months. I have also read that there may be an advantage in having a different booster vaccine from the initial original vaccine. Ie mixing AZ with Pfizer or Moderna may be better than all Pfizer or all Moderna. I am due for a booster at Christmas but I have no confidence that the Government will have made a decision by then.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Nothing like that I have heard in Australia. The first use of the vaccine was in Feb and the 3 mths would be up in April so the early AZ vaccine patients would be getting pretty close to needing a booster. 
> I had heard that the extra Pfizer doses would be for boosters but other than that nothing. 
> Seems like I said before the AstraZeneca has run its race and will be part of medical history.

  From what I had read recently AZ was looking like it lasted longer so maybe not a booster within 12 months?
And maybe new strains by then?   

> Australia has not decided yet whether or not we are going to be offered boosters. Other countries that are ahead in their vaccine roll out are, so I suspect (read-willing to wager a large amount of money) that we will. The offer will likely be targeted to certain groups eg age. From what I have read, AZ and Pfizer are effective at reducing the risk of contracting Covid and considerably reducing the risk of serious illness for at least 6 months. I have also read that there may be an advantage in having a different booster vaccine from the initial original vaccine. Ie mixing AZ with Pfizer or Moderna may be better than all Pfizer or all Moderna. I am due for a booster at Christmas but I have no confidence that the Government will have made a decision by then.

  Also hearing that some countries are not allowing mix of vaccines as proof of vaccination.
And that different manufacturing countries had different formulas for, eg, AZ, so maybe not approved as proof of vaccination in another country.
I was told this by a nurse this morning who also said she thought it was just countries playing politics (maybe buy our subs and we will recognise your AZ?  :Smilie:  ) and that it would all wash out.
She also said a lot of ppl were now ringing their clinic for AZ vaccinations and not Pfizer, and were being turned down because no AZ supplies since everyone ran to the other lifeboat.

----------


## UseByDate

> I was told this by a nurse this morning who also said she thought it was just countries playing politics (maybe buy our subs and we will recognise your AZ?  ) and that it would all wash out.

  Or...If we don't recognise your AZ you will have to buy our Pfizer/Moderna.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Or...If we don't recognise your AZ you will have to buy our Pfizer/Moderna.

  I have no idea how most people will be able to tell which vaccine "internationals" have had, given all the different written languages! You could be showing me your Russian/Chinese/Greek rates notice for all I know  :Smilie:

----------


## Marc

What the polish think of our fearless leaders 
https://youtu.be/PuOWLNtJd8I

----------


## Bros

> From what I had read recently AZ was looking like it lasted longer so maybe not a booster within 12 months?

  Yes but it starts off worse then the Pfizer and from the studies the Pfizer neve drops lower than AZ 
Check out the video Marc put up as it is quite informative. 
To make it easier look at from 43:21 min on especially noting the results at 50:40.

----------


## Marc

> I have no idea how most people will be able to tell which vaccine "internationals" have had, given all the different written languages! You could be showing me your Russian/Chinese/Greek rates notice for all I know

  Ha ha Reno, I am sure there are some folks who can read other languages  :Rofl5:

----------


## Bros

> What the polish think of our fearless leaders 
> https://youtu.be/PuOWLNtJd8I

  Well they have a hide with 75,000 deaths from the corona viruses where Australia has a bit over 1300, seems they don't care about deaths.

----------


## Marc

Nonsense comparison. different population, different location. Comparing prunes to kumquat.

----------


## Bros

> Nonsense comparison. different population, different location. Comparing prunes to kumquat.

  Poland population 37 Million Australia 25 Million they don't compare in any way. If you want to compare population vs deaths we would have 50,000 deaths no kumquats there.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Ha ha Reno, I am sure there are some folks who can read other languages

  What percentage of the population can read multiple languages, do you think? Remembering reading is far harder than speaking/getting the gist of what you are hearing

----------


## Bros

> What percentage of the population can read multiple languages, do you think? Remembering reading is far harder than speaking/getting the gist of what you are hearing

   That video was for Polish consumption if it was for Australia it would have been in English, I'm sure they have people who are fluent in English.

----------


## Marc

Reno ... I doubt the general population will need to read certificates of vaccination in other languages. Most likely immigration in airports.
As for reading vs speaking, it is actually way easier to read / guess a language you are only partially familiar with then speaking, providing you can read the symbols used of course. 
I can guess my way through written Polish and Danish, but I am unable to verbalise a single sentence. Same with Vietnamese. No luck with Japanese, there I must rely on sounds  :Smilie:  
I found the polish speech interesting. The poles are saying that we are no longer a democracy with our swift change to totalitarianism riding on the "public health" pretense. If you believe that the police actions in VIC QLD and NSW are measured, and the lockdown proportionate ... you have another thing coming.  
I said this before. It is hard to believe how quickly a population and their so called leaders, can turn to witch hunts and dobbing in each other with the right "motivation".
And I find it rather sad how many don't see this gargantuan flaw in the nation character, something this crisis made very apparent. 
Mark my words. There are many voices saying ... we must apply what we learned with covid, to "climate change". This is next year's power struggle ... providing Taiwan does not fall. 
We do have a window in the nation's character from time to time but don't seem to have those events in the right frame. Think Azaria, Falconio, Japanese australians during ww2 etc.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Reno ... I doubt the general population will need to read certificates of vaccination in other languages. Most likely immigration in airports.
> ....

  But currently it is proposed that shop/retail/cafe/etc workers check on vaccination status. This goes exponential when international travel recommences. Or maybe it's sufficient to suggest "They let me in the country, so I must be vaccinated". Immigration officials are hardly those who missed their calling as rocket scientists. I just can't see it working in any meaningful way.

----------


## Marc

The logical solution is to check vaccination status, in visa application and add on to existing visas. 
Too simple isn't it?   
May be it is easier to kick the locals around whilst offering a smile to foreigners, celebrities and ball kickers ... a classic trait of abusers.

----------


## UseByDate

> I have no idea how most people will be able to tell which vaccine "internationals" have had, given all the different written languages! You could be showing me your Russian/Chinese/Greek rates notice for all I know

  We have been dealing with all the worlds languages in standard passports for many years by simply including the world's universal language, namely English. Vaccine passports need  to adopt the same protocol. Problem solved.  :Smilie:

----------


## r3nov8or

> We have been dealing with all the worlds languages in standard passports for many years by simply including the world's universal language, namely English. Vaccine passports need  to adopt the same protocol. Problem solved.

  Yeah, should only take a couple of weeks to reissue internationally authoritative documents, and train thousands of people globally   :Biggrin:

----------


## r3nov8or

> The logical solution is to check vaccination status, in visa application and add on to existing visas. 
> Too simple isn't it?  ...

  Sounds simple, but there are heaps of countries to and from which we/they do not (currently) require a visa to be processed before arrival

----------


## Marc

Ok, so let's see this from a different angle. 
If you see someone who seems to be an obvious tourist, say camera, talking in a different language, lederhosen, funny hat, red in the face, usual tell tale signs ... do you feel compelled to ask them for a valid visa? 
The geniuses in government came up with this brainfart of an idea, vaccination "passport", and want to offload policing of said brain diarrhea to shop owners and, why not, you and me. Next thing, the unvaccinated will require a yellow star painted on the back of their head, need to have a walking stick with bells attached to it, and bang the ground every 3 seconds chanting, "unclean - unclean". 
Vaccine apartheid is the last thing we need

----------


## UseByDate

> Next thing, the unvaccinated will require a yellow star painted on the back of their head, need to have a walking stick with bells attached to it, and bang the ground every 3 seconds chanting, "unclean - unclean". 
> Vaccine apartheid is the last thing we need

  Bring back the leper's squint.   https://youtu.be/Y8fsrOoy_kQ?t=735

----------


## UseByDate

> Yeah, should only take a couple of weeks to reissue internationally authoritative documents, and train thousands of people globally

  Did someone just move the goalposts? :Confused:

----------


## fredgassit

> we must apply what we learned with covid, to "climate change". This is next year's power struggle.

   
Yes, along with digital currencies.

----------


## Bedford

Public Health Amendment (Vaccination Compensation) Bill 2021   

> A Bill for An Act to amend the Public  Health  Act  2010 to provide for the payment of compensation to workers who suffer injury, loss or damage as a result of a requirement to be vaccinated

  First Print.pdf

----------


## Marc

Hand sanitiser is more dangerous than Ivermectin.

----------


## METRIX

> The new to be  leader apparently is anti-lockdown so brace.

  If Perrottet gets in he is a devout Christian with 6 kids, this is much worse than anti-lockdown. 
Barilaro has also resigned, Andrew Constance is also leaving, it's all happening at the NSW Liberals.

----------


## Bros

There was the Blue pill now the Red pill, choose your poison. https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...antiviral-pill

----------


## ForeverYoung

Pfizer fizzles after 6 months, booster required for vax certificate. Israel Covid: Nearly 2 million people could lose vaccine status as rules change | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site  

> Under the new guidelines, people must have received a third jab, a booster shot, to be eligible for a green pass.People who have received two vaccine doses, and those who have recovered from coronavirus, will be issued passes valid for six months after the date of their third booster shot or recovery. It means that nearly 2 million people will lose their vaccination passport in the coming days – with the cull beginning today.

----------


## METRIX

Interesting stats for VIC and NSW, the active cases are a bit of a concern for VIC.

----------


## pharmaboy2

one of the problems with the data on active cases, is they dont report the proportion of vaccinated individuals.  I think they refrain to stop the anti vaxxers going "look at all the vaccinated people with covid, vaccines give you covid", but it also informs the rest of us of what to expect in the future - what are your chances of getting covid positive when vaxxed etc. 
We get data on the deaths and occasionally ICU, but we should get consistent openness of vaccination status - i am assuming however that we can all adult about it though (maybe I'm a little optimistic there)

----------


## Marc

So we reached 70% vaccination in NSW, and as predicted, the goal post has moved once more. They are addicted and can not let go.
What would have happened if 70% hadn't been reached on the 11th?
Simple, push forward another week, but it was reached early so? Easy ... screw you, we are in charge and know what is best for you.
I am so sick of this that's not funny. 
And the government website is not updated showing 67% on the 4/10   

> "look at all the vaccinated people with covid, vaccines give you covid",

  Ph2 , That is precisely what I had to listen to from a few of my unvaccinated friends. Had to smooth over it with a "oh well, no one really knows"
By the way, when I had a case of really mild illness lasting a couple of days, I must say that some persistent symptoms lasted a full month, lethargy, dizziness, apathy ... and my sense of smell is only half back. 
Makes it hard to cook a meal.

----------


## METRIX

> So we reached 70% vaccination in NSW, and as predicted, the goal post has moved once more. They are addicted and can not let go.
> What would have happened if 70% hadn't been reached on the 11th?
> Simple, push forward another week, but it was reached early so? Easy ... screw you, we are in charge and know what is best for you.
> I am so sick of this that's not funny. 
> And the government website is not updated showing 67% on the 4/10  
> .

  What has changed, the original wording was first Monday after 70% reached, restrictions would be gradually rolled back. 
From what I saw this morning for the vaccinated from Monday 11th which is the first Monday after officially 70% was reached which is what the roadmap stated, masks outdoors will be dropped, pubs will reopen, you can have limited visitors to your home, gyms will reopen. 
These were always the first restrictions of the roadmap, there was no mention anything has been pushed back, where is this information you are referring to for goal posts being moved or grab to run your life ? 
What would have happened if 70% wasn't reached by the 11th, who really cares as it didn't happen, most likely the date would have been pushed back a week or two until 70% was reached. 
Dates mean nothing they were always a guide based on vaccine update modelling, it's the 70% figure that was agreed upon which NSW has abided by, unlike others states who agree then change their mind. 
Yes the data is stuck at 67.7% it is also dated at the 4th, as you might have noticed a few things have happened with leadership in the NSW govt over the last few days that I suspect might have ripple effect for the whole sector and websites etc will take a few days to get the persons responsible to have these updated. 
I suspect things might need a few days to get everything back into motion.
Marc your hatred of the Federal / NSW gov't is really evident, I am surprised you even had the vaccine. 
Might be time for you to move to QLD or WA.

----------


## Moondog55

As an aside query has anybody here entered that Covid $1000000- lottery?
I just did on the slight chance of winning.

----------


## r3nov8or

> As an aside query has anybody here entered that Covid $1000000- lottery?
> I just did on the slight chance of winning.

  Thanks for the reminder. Gotta be in it to win it. Earlier the better with 100 x $1000 daily prizes during October

----------


## ForeverYoung

> one of the problems with the data on active cases, is they dont report the proportion of vaccinated individuals.  I think they refrain to stop the anti vaxxers going "look at all the vaccinated people with covid, vaccines give you covid", but it also informs the rest of us of what to expect in the future - what are your chances of getting covid positive when vaxxed etc. 
> We get data on the deaths and occasionally ICU, but we should get consistent openness of vaccination status - i am assuming however that we can all adult about it though (maybe I'm a little optimistic there)

   :Shock:  :Doh:  :Fingerscrossed:  :Roflmao:  :Roflmao:  
Politicians - it is in their mission statement to control the narrative .
Data are hidden. Easy. 
Last para: https://www.renovateforum.com/f188/c...ml#post1131212

----------


## Marc

> Marc your hatred of the Federal / NSW gov't is really evident, I am surprised you even had the vaccine. 
> Might be time for you to move to QLD or WA.

  I don't recall ever saying anything of the kind to you, in relation to anything you express as your opinion or belief, and you do plenty.
I suggest you refrain from similar comments in the future.
Might be time for you to edit your post.

----------


## METRIX

> I don't recall ever saying anything of the kind to you, in relation to anything you express as your opinion or belief, and you do plenty.
> I suggest you refrain from similar comments in the future.
> Might be time for you to edit your post.

  No I won't edit my comment because there is nothing defamatory in the comment, my comment to move to WA or QLD is so you can feel good that they are doing a better job for you. You have made it quite clear on here many many times you hate everything the Federal / NSW gov't has done in relation to the entire Corona Virus / Vaccine rollout / Lockdowns / Roadmap out and freedom day.  You have posted endless pages of conspiracy dribble in the previous thread, most of it with no credible backing, endless personal opinions in relation to how everything has been stuffed up by the Federal / NSW govt's, and how around the world they have done this or that so much better than us, and how our gov't has taken right away from you etc etc  As you are entitled to your opinion which you have had many opinions, everyone else is entitled to their opinion on what's being said, if you didn't like something that was said you were free to disagree and question it as you are now. As I am free to comment on your opinions,   Let's look at what you said that you are now having a fuss about.   

> So we reached 70% vaccination in NSW, and as predicted, the goal post has moved once more.

  I asked you what goal post was moved, you haven't answered this yet why? because no goal post was moved.  *Fact: They actually reduced restrictions more than was on the roadmap such as.* 
1: The opening of indoor pools to swimming lessons etc 
2: Wedding / Funerals up from 50 to 100 people
3: Bringing forward reopening of schools
4: Outdoor event increase from 500 to 3000 people    

> They are addicted and can not let go.

  What do you mean by this, what can't they let go of, the power, well they are actually letting go as can be seen by them opening up more restrictions previously slated to be opened later.
Do you think as of the 11th everything was going to go back to the way it was prior to corona, come on, it needs to be carefully implemented so Business has some stability and trust they can open and not have to close the next week.     

> What would have happened if 70% hadn't been reached on the 11th?

  
It didn't happen, so why do you need to hypothesise if it didn't, it was reached due to predictive modelling, as I said if it wasn't reached they would have just moved the date back another week until it was reached.
It was always about two numbers 70% and 80% not a day, not a date, a date was predicted when things were getting close, Business need a definite figure such as 70% then as things get close they can tie a date to this.    

> Simple, push forward another week, but it was reached early so? Easy ... screw you, we are in charge and know what is best for you.

   It was reached yesterday, I don't know why you are getting so upset with your comment on this one, as was always in the roadmap after the 70% figure was reached restrictions would be reduced the coming Monday. I don't see any screw you from the decision makers, if you do then please provide the information se we call all see how we are being screwed by this.    

> I am so sick of this that's not funny.

  Fair enough we are all sick of it    

> And the government website is not updated showing 67% on the 4/10

  This has been updated, if you watched the press conference you will see there was a meeting yesterday (70% day) to see if the restrictions could be revised down, which they did, then announced the changes today, there was no screw you in there. 
Well there was but only for the unvaccinated and really who cares, if they don't want to do their part to help everyone else out, then that's their choice, they will be the ones who get seriously sick and potentially die in larger numbers than the vaccinated. 
Predictions are for NSW to get to 90% double dose which will be one of the highest vaccinated places in the world, this will leave a small minority of people at risk of getting very sick and potentially dying all because of some conspiracy or gov't hatred. 
While the vaccinated may get sick like the flu or potentially die if they have underlying health issues, the minority will have a much higher chance of getting seriously ill, that's the choice you make if they don't want to vaccinate, they can't blame anyone else but themselves.  Turn off that Sky News Dribble, and don't worry about what Polish think of us, because we don't care, they have nothing to gloat about with their appalling 2.9 Million infected and nearly 76,000 deaths, it's obvious they didn't handle it very well.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Taylor ... wrote a remarkable little book back in 2019 called “The Psychology of Pandemics.” Its premise is that pandemics are “not simply events in which some harmful microbe ‘goes viral,’” but rather are mass psychological phenomena about the behaviors, attitudes and emotions of people. The book came out pre-COVID and yet predicts every trend and trope we’ve been living for 19 months now: the hoarding of supplies like toilet paper at the start; the rapid spread of “unfounded rumors and fake news”; the backlash against masks and vaccines; the rise and acceptance of conspiracy theories; and the division of society into people who “dutifully conform to the advice of health authorities” — sometimes compulsively so — and those who “engage in seemingly self-defeating behaviors such as refusing to get vaccinated.”

  Wondering why society went off-kilter during the pandemic? It was all predicted in this book | The Seattle Times   

> “It’s the first big pandemic in the era of social media, so the disinformation just spreads faster and wider,” he said. “Plus down there you had Donald Trump, who himself engaged in reality denial on a grand scale. I did not account for the possibility of political leadership like that in my book.”

   

> Taylor had the fundamental insight that pandemics are first and foremost experienced socially, more so than they are medically. He wrote the book to try to ready folks for this, for when the next pandemic happened. That turned out to be only about a month after his book was published. Still, one publisher warned him: *“No one’s going to want to read it.”*

----------


## r3nov8or

I reckon Bros has his mouse hovering over the Close button. Ease up a little guys  :2thumbsup:

----------


## Bros

:What he said:

----------


## Bros

> one of the problems with the data on active cases, is they dont report the proportion of vaccinated individuals.

  I doubt they will release that information nor the type of vaccine vs hospitalization or death. If they did it will show the best vs the rest of the vaccine's.

----------


## Marc

There is a lot of talk about breakthrough infections, that is, infection after being fully vaccinated. 
There are those who want to say vaccines are ineffective, or even that they cause the illness they portray to prevent.  
Hot air I say. Breakthrough infections are real, I experienced it myself, but they are mild and shouldn't be a concern. 
What seems to be way more concerning is the high number of death with just one recent dose. 
Is it possible that most of this cases received their first vaccine when they were already infected and their immune system went into overdrive?
With the mad rush to vaccinate everyone at all cost, I don't see correct procedure to test for antigens before vaccination.  
Sars2 kills when our immune system overreacts and floods the lungs with mucus. At that stage there is no return. A person that is in the initial stages of the infection is fighting the virus naturally. A first dose of a vaccine is certain to throw a spanner in the works and tip the person over the edge. I don't see enough information on the subject nor a rigid protocol to prevent an infected person from being vaccinated. 
That is why I hate politicians that want to show off playing doctor, as much as I hate doctors pretending to be politicians.

----------


## Bedford

*'Repeat offender' Daniel Andrews fined for not wearing mask*    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gGZbtxGdgM

----------


## r3nov8or

> ...
>  nor a rigid protocol to prevent an infected person from being vaccinated.
> ...

  Yep. All there is, is the usual questions about symptoms and potential exposure, but surely that is more about not infecting others in the vax centre rather than not getting a jab for "double up" reasons

----------


## UseByDate

> ... I don't see correct procedure to test for antigens before vaccination.

  Not a thorough test but my temperature was measured before I was given my second dose.

----------


## UseByDate

> I doubt they will release that information nor the type of vaccine vs hospitalization or death. If they did it will show the best vs the rest of the vaccine's.

  ABC NEWS today stated 620 people in hospital with Covid in Victoria and greater than 67% were/are not vaccinated.

----------


## Bros

> ABC NEWS today stated 620 people in hospital with Covid in Victoria and greater than 67% were/are not vaccinated.

  I heard that to but not what vaccine it was that the 33% that were in hospital had.

----------


## Marc

> I heard that to but not what vaccine it was that the 33% that were in hospital had.

  I have never seen data on breakthrough infections in relation to the vaccine used. The immunity achieved by AZ and Pfizer is almost identical, however infection after vaccination that results in hospitalisation, is individual and almost always after one recent dose. And I suspect administered when the person had the virus already, or is immune compromised.   
I imagine that a chart stating how many people ended in hospital having had this or that vaccine would be a bit of a liability.

----------


## phild01

> The immunity achieved by AZ and Pfizer is almost identical,

  Only if the necessary wait times are adhered to (12 weeks for AZ, 4 for Pfizer), which is NOT happening in the current rush for full vaccination.
 I have been noticing a hint in numbers of vaccinated people appearing more so in hospitalisations and death, particularly Victoria.

----------


## r3nov8or

For what it's worth, for the breakthrough infections in the USA, they have not been vaccinated with AZ, since they didn't use it.

----------


## phild01

> For what it's worth, for the breakthrough infections in the USA, they have not been vaccinated with AZ, since they didn't use it.

  They also use J&J which is probably the worst of the lot.

----------


## Bros

> I have never seen data on breakthrough infections in relation to the vaccine used. The immunity achieved by AZ and Pfizer is almost identical, however infection after vaccination that results in hospitalisation, is individual and almost always after one recent dose. And I suspect administered when the person had the virus already, or is immune compromised.   
> I imagine that a chart stating how many people ended in hospital having had this or that vaccine would be a bit of a liability.

  You seem to have never watched you own video's so could you explain the differences from 43:21 onwards?

----------


## Marc

You missed my point Bros. There are many graphs about vaccine efficacy. The one your refer to and another much more interesting a few minutes later, with variations according to country, all they do is point out at the wild differences in studies and their results. By the way Pfizer loses it's initial effect faster and they both end up in the same ligue
Look at the second graph comparing results in different countries ... To me it is like asking who likes pesto the best.  
What I would like to see is a comparison among hospitalised patients that had the vaccine, one dose, two dose and which one.

----------


## phild01

Marc, you may be missing the point about efficacy when comparing AZ with Pfizer, true when given the correct way but all the recent fully vaccinated AZ people do not have anything like equality with their counterparts. I would prefer to wait 16 weeks with my AZ jab but will relent after 12 in a couple of weeks time. If I had Pfizer then I would prefer to wait 8 weeks. These vaccinations might be much longer lasting if the jab times were increased but haven't seen any data being available for comparison.

----------


## Marc

True. The _long_ video talks about prolonging the wait between shots, but like with the rest of the data it's all a big guess.  
Never in history there has been an experiment at such large scale and in such short time, with SO MANY conflicting/competing interest.  
You have done the right thing waiting for second jab. 
Pfizer and AZ on pair after just 4-5 month  https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...qnwbc.facebook 
As far as the graph in question (that I tried to copy and paste unsuccessfully) At what point in time was immunity measured?  

> results indicate that efficacy may drop substantially as time passes – in Pfizer’s case by as much as 22% for every 30 days after the second dose

   So if the timeline is not present, te data is just anecdotic.  

> _Nature_ reports the study as showing the vaccine’s efficacy declined to 90% after 30 days, 85% after 60 days and 78% after 90 days. AstraZeneca’s efficacy began at 69% a fortnight after the second dose, falling to 61% after 90 days, the journal reports.

  And ... no data about how long the gap was. 
It's all as green as Zucchini.

----------


## johnc

My guess is never before in the history of vaccines have so many pontificated on a vaccine of any sort. Yet on forums like this nobody I am aware of is the slightest bit qualified to speak at all. This is nothing but regurgitating a combination of information from experts and propganda of idiots and half wits. To the credit of those involved most posts seem to lean towards expert, not idiot, when referenced back. Seriously this is just noise, of little value but we should be grateful that we may be heading for 90% fully vaccinated adults over the age of 16, whatever it ends up being for over 12 and sometime soon vacination of children over the age of five if required. 
We seem to be a compliant country however coming out of lockdowns and opening up to the outside world will test the health systems of states like Victoria and NSW, I hope most of you are double vaxxed or heading that way, as for the rest they will be part of the problem of getting a level of herd immunity that keeps most of us safe. I am aware of a relative of a friend who died yesterday of Covid, after a long period of decline with the mongrel virus, once vaccinated we greatly reduce our risk of getting covid, we reduce the risk of passing it on and if we do at lower levels than if we had refused the vaccine, thats the expert opinion as it stands.

----------


## Bros

> My guess is never before in the history of vaccines have so many pontificated on a vaccine of any sort.

  Fortunately or unfortunately that is the way it is now with instant communication. It has the advantage of taking some of the mystery out of "doctor knows best". 
I was just looking at a FB post tonight and some of the vitriol being dished out by posters who say they believe in vaccination won't be vaccinated for Covid was incredible. I had to wonder if these posters were just trolls who have been vaccinated and just stirring up others just for their satisfaction. 
Then there are the antivaxxers and their posts.

----------


## r3nov8or

From the New York Times 'today'... timely, per NSW "freedom day"...  *Singapore’s uncertain reopening*
Vaccines were supposed to be the city-state’s ticket back to normalcy. But even with an 83 percent vaccination rate, Singapore is not opening up. 
Instead, the government reinstated restrictions and urged people to work from home. For many residents, there was a feeling of whiplash and nagging questions about what it would take to reopen if vaccines were not enough. 
But even though nearly all infections, 98.4 percent, present mild or no symptoms, the country is unaccustomed to large outbreaks. It’s a sobering case study for nations like New Zealand and Australia that are trying to transition from a zero-Covid strategy. 
Background: Singapore’s initial handling of the coronavirus was widely considered a success. It closed its borders, tested and traced aggressively and was one of the first countries in Asia to order vaccines. 
What’s next: One vision of how the pandemic might play out in Singapore includes face masks, limited travel and social distancing, perhaps until 2024. 
Quotable: “In a way, we are a victim of our own success, because we’ve achieved as close to zero Covid as we can get and a very, very low death rate,” said an infectious disease specialist. “So we want to keep the position at the top of the class, and it’s very hard to do.”

----------


## UseByDate

> My guess is never before in the history of vaccines have so many pontificated on a vaccine of any sort. Yet on forums like this nobody I am aware of is the slightest bit qualified to speak at all. This is nothing but regurgitating a combination of information from experts and propganda of idiots and half wits. To the credit of those involved most posts seem to lean towards expert, not idiot, when referenced back. Seriously this is just noise, of little value but we should be grateful that we may be heading for 90% fully vaccinated adults over the age of 16, whatever it ends up being for over 12 and sometime soon vacination of children over the age of five if required. 
> We seem to be a compliant country however coming out of lockdowns and opening up to the outside world will test the health systems of states like Victoria and NSW, I hope most of you are double vaxxed or heading that way, as for the rest they will be part of the problem of getting a level of herd immunity that keeps most of us safe. I am aware of a relative of a friend who died yesterday of Covid, after a long period of decline with the mongrel virus, once vaccinated we greatly reduce our risk of getting covid, we reduce the risk of passing it on and if we do at lower levels than if we had refused the vaccine, thats the *expert opinion* as it stands.

  Are you claiming to be an expert? If not, aren't you just being hypercritical and contributing to the noise you claim is on this thread?

----------


## r3nov8or

Just linked my vax certificate from Medicare app to the Services Victoria check-in app. Works really well I reckon. Flashy hologram background and all...

----------


## johnc

> Are you claiming to be an expert? If not, aren't you just being hypercritical and contributing to the noise you claim is on this thread?

  or are you just being judgmental, does it really matter what either of us really think. I was certainly being judgmental FWIW.

----------


## Marc

> Just linked my vax certificate from Medicare app to the Services Victoria check-in app. Works really well I reckon. Flashy hologram background and all...

   Ours does not work yet. Entering a store was hit and miss yesterday, with queues of people poking aimlessly at their phones, and 'security' guard looking at the certificate without reading it. If it is green it must be right ...  :Smilie:

----------


## METRIX

So funny.

----------


## phild01

> So funny.

  #241   

> The new to be leader apparently is anti-lockdown so brace.

----------


## METRIX

> #241    The new to be leader apparently is anti-lockdown so brace.

  You couldn't script this, HA HA HA HA HA, about time one of the Premiers shows some leadership. 
I went out to lunch for a few days this week, you wouldn't know anything was different from prior Covid. 
Restaurants were all full, people lining up at the doors to get in. 
I would say traffic is back to about 40 - 50%.
I read face-to-face retail took $100 Million in sales on the Monday up from $35 Million the previous Monday.

----------


## Uncle Bob

I really hope it doesn't turn out to be a mistake and heaps more people die.

----------


## phild01

I am hoping regions and other states get their vax numbers high like Sydney, want to travel safely. Seems the only way to do that is the scare tactic by releasing the virus into the communities. Probably something the government already knows!

----------


## METRIX

> I really hope it doesn't turn out to be a mistake and heaps more people die.

  Bound to happen, don't know about heaps of people but people will die, I would be getting very nervous if I was unvaccinated about now.
The un vaccinated are putting the vaccinated, the ones who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, plus the kids at risk, rather selfish attitude if you ask me.

----------


## METRIX

> I am hoping regions and other states get their vax numbers high like Sydney, want to travel safely. Seems the only way to do that is the scare tactic by releasing the virus into the communities. Probably something the government already knows!

  Probably true, I reckon they have had enough of the rubbish from the anti-vaxxers, probably thought let it out and lets see what happens.
As much as it's costing a fortune in keeping them alive in hospital, thought are it's costing a lot more to keep everything closed. 
A few mates are in Portugal they said everything back to normal over there, you just show your double vax certificate to get access to eating / events.
They travelled to England and said they have given up on the vax certificate and just let everyone go do what they want.

----------


## Marc

You can safely half the death numbers to get a more realistic picture, considering how the death with covid have been added to the death by covid, but anyway ... one is one too many. 
As for vaccination certificate. I have mine on the phone and since the great stampede, have been asked for it the grand total of twice. And the checking consisted in verifying it was green, since without expanding the picture it is impossible to read from one meter away. 
As for the legality of asking for this certificate, it is murky like everything to do with covid. 
No surprises.
Prince Charles, wants countries to treat global warming like we did the pandemic. 
Swell.

----------


## r3nov8or

A friend's mum has a condition that is treated by very low dose chemo. Double jabbed, but as she's immuno-compromised, her doctor said let's get your COVID antibodies checked to see if you need a booster. Zero. Nada. Nil. No antibodies just a few months along. What other drugs impact efficacy? Are we all really still "double jabbed" at all?

----------


## ForeverYoung

> A friend's mum has a condition that is treated by very low dose chemo. Double jabbed, but as she's immuno-compromised, her doctor said let's get your COVID antibodies checked to see if you need a booster. Zero. Nada. Nil. No antibodies just a few months along. What other drugs impact efficacy? Are we all really still "double jabbed" at all?

  I really feel for all the individuals like your friend's mum who get caught out in this.
We live in a world where all that is required is to appear to do the right thing, not actually do it.
Where built in obsolescence is now an art form.
As long as the overall statistics look ok and are palatable it doesn't matter if an individual is a statistic. 
On the plus side it does sound like her doctor is on the ball at least.

----------


## METRIX

> I really feel for all the individuals like your friend's mum who get caught out in this.
> We live in a world where all that is required is to appear to do the right thing, not actually do it.
> Where built in obsolescence is now an art form.
> As long as the overall statistics look ok and are palatable it doesn't matter if an individual is a statistic. 
> On the plus side it does sound like her doctor is on the ball at least.

----------


## phild01

> 

  Where is our English going....0.39 Zee instead of Zed!

----------


## Bros

I know it is estate agent talk but even if there is a grain of truth I find it hard to understand people motivation. I lived in a small town where the pay was exceptionally good and I have seen people come from Brisbane and within 3 yrs most have them have gone back sacrificing the high income as the wife couldn't cope with living in a smaller town. 
Now Townsville and Bundaberg are not small towns but they are don't compare with Sydney and Melbourne for convenience. 
The country seems to be awash with money as materials and tradies are hard to get, it must end somewhere. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...berg/100441232  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-...rket/100538730

----------


## ForeverYoung

> I know it is estate agent talk but even if there is a grain of truth I find it hard to understand people motivation. ...

  Fear & Herd Mentality I would suggest.
There are possibly some who have started to question why they have been living the way they have and might be opting for a simpler less frenetic lifestyle where they can spend more time with their kids etc but I doubt if they are the type to buy a house unseen from interstate via a video link with the re agent -  something I have seen personally happen at a home open, the agent forget to mention the house was riddled with asbestos cladding inside (and it wasn't obvious from the listing pics). I am still bewildered by all the online buying of even minor stuff that is better see in person let alone a house.

----------


## METRIX

> something I have seen personally happen at a home open, the agent forget to mention the house was riddled with asbestos cladding inside (and it wasn't obvious from the listing pics)..

  I am not sticking up for Real Estate agents, I personally detest them, as the majority of them (99.9%) are shonks, play stupid time wasting games, pretend to be your friend then stab you, and are as crooked as they come. 
Saying that, it's not up to the agent to mention anything about a house such as Asbestos walls etc, this is the buyers responsibility to seek advise from a pre-purchase inspection then make an informed decision based on the findings. 
The hard thing comes in when trying to find a decent pre-purchase inspection, again 99% of these are not worth the paper they are written on and reveal nothing about the condition or problems in a house and are mostly about covering their ass for not disclosing something that is potentially wrong. 
Most people purchase a house on looks and emotion which is the worst thing you can ever do, once you let emotions become involved you are bound to make a decision that will cost you more. 
Imagine as a seller you put your house on the market, potential buyer comes in. 
 Agent says stop before you enter, bear in mind the walls in the bedrooms, bathroom, kitchen and garage are made from Asbestos, the plumbing is pretty old and has asbestos insulation around the pipes, the wiring is old in the front part of the house and really all needs replacing, there is lead based paint on the window frames, pretty sure there is lino under the lounge carpet that contains Asbestos. 
As you can imagine this house is not going to sell, this is why having an independent pre-purchase inspection is very important if you are not experienced enough to perform this yourself. 
Anyone buying a house or apartment purely online has rocks in their head IMO, as there is so many things that can go very wrong, not only the physical condition of the house, what about potential neighbour issues that can only be spotted by visiting the site, potential noise issues such as the guy next door owns a MACK truck, there is a tree in the back yard ready to drop, the list goes on and on.

----------


## METRIX

> Ours does not work yet. Entering a store was hit and miss yesterday, with queues of people poking aimlessly at their phones, and 'security' guard looking at the certificate without reading it. If it is green it must be right ...

  I was able to get the digital certificate to port over to the Services NSW app this morning, which is bang on when they said it would work which was, ready from Monday 18th, It now appears in the credentials section of the opening page,  
There is a new hologram of a wattle that forms the background, also a QR code superimposed over the wattle that is generated (what this does I can't work out as nothing seems to scan it) probably for use in big venues I suspect. 
There is also a clearly visible time and date that is generated as soon as you open the certificate and refreshed on the fly with a refresh button as well as the rolling clock on the top part of the certificate. 
I think it would now be very difficult to replicate this if you were trying to use a fake one, this one is much easier to understand.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> ... 
> Saying that, it's not up to the agent to mention anything about a house such as Asbestos walls etc, this is the buyers responsibility to seek advise from a pre-purchase inspection then make an informed decision based on the findings.

  Yep, sorry, I was trying to be flippant/sarcastic about the agent not mentioning it.
I have seen an ad on the box from a bank where the potential buyer uses their app to value the house and there is a guy in the background tapping the walls - that's me.   

> The hard thing comes in when trying to find a decent pre-purchase inspection, again 99% of these are not worth the paper they are written on and reveal nothing about the condition or problems in a house and are mostly about covering their ass for not disclosing something that is potentially wrong ...

  Have to agree on that. 
I have seen people trying to do their due diligence, getting in a builder mate etc, and they get beaten by the FOMO buyer who buys at the 1st home open in the 1st 20 minutes - witnessed this a couple of times here in Perth; and yes it is corona related, seems to have really juiced the market for certain properties in certain locations.

----------


## METRIX

> Yep, sorry, I was trying to be flippant/sarcastic about the agent not mentioning it.
> I have seen an ad on the box from a bank where the potential buyer uses their app to value the house and there is a guy in the background tapping the walls - that's me.  
> Have to agree on that. 
> I have seen people trying to do their due diligence, getting in a builder mate etc, and they get beaten by the FOMO buyer who buys at the 1st home open in the 1st 20 minutes - witnessed this a couple of times here in Perth; and yes it is corona related, seems to have really juiced the market for certain properties in certain locations.

  There has been this online-auction thing going on in Sydney for the last months due to corona, I would never buy a house via an online auction as you can't see who it is your bidding against and if they are a genuine buyer or maybe a heap of shonky real estate agents in an office pushing the prices higher. 
I asked a mate who runs a realestate he said it's all legit, like a zoom meeting but you don't have to show your face, there is nothing to stop non potential buyers jumping in and boosting the price, same as a in person auction I guess.
The thing that worries me about these online auctions, is it could be rigged and be a bunch of bots using AI to determine if you can be pushed a little more, who knows, maybe it's safer. 
I normally hate Auctions anyway, inevitably the buyer will overpay at them, I have only ever bought one place via Auction, with the latest market prices in Sydney, a non-auction property doesn't exist and prices are ridiculous.

----------


## Bros

Getting back to the corona virus, my son has been against this vaccine as it has been rushed on to the market but yesterday he was talking to us and now seems to be accepting that if you are vaccinated you will be in this group and non vaccinated you will have to stand at the back.

----------


## METRIX

> Getting back to the corona virus, my son has been against this vaccine as it has been rushed on to the market but yesterday he was talking to us and now seems to be accepting that if you are vaccinated you will be in this group and non vaccinated you will have to stand at the back.

  I think you will find an amount of people will go get it done now for FOMO. 
Was as a friends house yesterday, they are going to a 21st birthday the boy who is 21 isn't vaccinated, so he is not allowed inside the house with the other guests and he has to wear a mask the whole time, while the others who are there for his birthday don't and are allowed to congregate inside the house. 
It was said he didn't get the vaccine as he couldn't be bothered, now he was saying he should have got it done.

----------


## METRIX

Yesterdays Everest Day at Randwick, things almost looking back to normal.

----------


## UseByDate

> A few mates are in Portugal they said everything back to normal over there, you just show your double vax certificate to get access to eating / events.
> They travelled to England and said they have given up on the vax certificate and just let everyone go do what they want.

  How did they get into England without a vax certificate?
 This document shows a list of countries and what evidence of vaccination is required to enter the country.  
 To qualify under the fully vaccinated rules for travel to England, you must have been fully vaccinated with a full course of an approved vaccine under:  the UK or UK overseas vaccination 	programme  	the United Nations vaccine 	programme for staff and volunteers  	an approved programme in one of the countries 	or territories listed below    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/countrie...proof-required

----------


## METRIX

> How did they get into England without a vax certificate?
>  This document shows a list of countries and what evidence of vaccination is required to enter the country.  
>  “To qualify under the fully vaccinated rules for travel to England, you must have been fully vaccinated with a full course of an approved vaccine under:  the UK or UK overseas vaccination     programmethe United Nations vaccine     programme for staff and volunteersan approved programme in one of the countries     or territories listed below “    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/countrie...proof-required

  The do have a vax certificate, they said once in the country nobody cares in the venues they just go in without being asked to show it.

----------


## UseByDate

> The do have a vax certificate, they said once in the country nobody cares in the venues they just go in without being asked to show it.

  They have one and many countries mandate that it is required to enter their country (or quarantine) but they don't use it domestically within England. 
 “At the moment, Covid status certificates are not a legal requirement in the UK to get into places, such as pubs, theatres, cinemas or shops.
 However, nightclubs have been encouraged to use them by the Government - and it may be mandatory in the near future.  
 This might mean your favourite venue currently won't let you in unless you have a pass.”  https://www.thesun.co.uk/health/1541...id-how-to-get/

----------


## Bros

> Yesterdays Everest Day at Randwick, things almost looking back to normal.

   And I suppose you were there making small talk with Gerry Harvey?

----------


## Marc

About evidence of vaccination required ... We have now been out and about for a week, and the proof of vaccination is already out the window. Hardly any store takes it on them to ask. 
My TV started to play up. The message was "Card failure" ...  :Confused:  
So called the local antenna tv dude. 
He arrived all masked up, and first thing he says ... "Can I ask you if you are double vaccinated?" 
Yes, confronted with this irony, I quickly scanned in my mind the multiple sarcastic replies that popped up, but I wanted the TV fixed ... so I hesitantly blurted out -Yes, you can ask me. 
And that was it. 
When governments ask citizen to turn into police, nothing good comes of it. 
Stalin, Hitler, Mao and many others had the same clever idea.  Our friend Xi is a student in the same school.

----------


## Bros

> Yes, confronted with this irony, I quickly scanned in my mind the multiple sarcastic replies that popped up,.

  Hard to believe you were lost for words.

----------


## METRIX

> About evidence of vaccination required ... We have now been out and about for a week, and the proof of vaccination is already out the window. Hardly any store takes it on them to ask. 
> My TV started to play up. The message was "Card failure" ...  
> So called the local antenna tv dude. 
> He arrived all masked up, and first thing he says ... "Can I ask you if you are double vaccinated?" 
> Yes, confronted with this irony, I quickly scanned in my mind the multiple sarcastic replies that popped up, but I wanted the TV fixed ... so I hesitantly blurted out -Yes, you can ask me. 
> And that was it. 
> When governments ask citizen to turn into police, nothing good comes of it. 
> Stalin, Hitler, Mao and many others had the same clever idea.  Our friend Xi is a student in the same school.

  It has nothing to do with citizens being police, not any links to Stalin or Xi. 
You are not required to show Vax proof everywhere you go or every business you enter.
Nor is every business required to ask for proof as clearly stated on the NSW health site. 
As you can see it is mainly for business where you will be sitting down, or staying in there for an extended period of time.  
The TV guy asking you is a good thing, the thought you had to give him a sarcastic reply is a bad thing, he is only doing his job, maybe appreciate he actually turned up.
If he didn't ask you to "prove it" is probably more to do with he trusted you to not lie about it. 
Which stores did NOT ask you for it ?
Which stores DID ask you for it ?

----------


## Marc

More and more Australians are seeing the sense in this simple message: there’s no reason to keep us locked down once everyone has had the chance to get the jab. NSW is leading the way, with people back at work, visiting the family and friends they haven’t seen in months and finally sinking a few beers at the pub. Pretty soon kids across the state will be back at school. Although every state is different, there’s no reason other state’s can’t follow the NSW example. *But there are also three very self-important, power-hungry flies in our ointment: Dan Andrews, Annastacia Palaszczuk and Mark McGowan.* The three Premiers hell-bent on holding back our country. All three signed up to a national deal to open up Australia. All three broke their promises within weeks, shifting the goalposts on what percentage of Australians would need to be vaccinated before their hard borders and punishing lockdowns would end. Just when it looks like we can put the pandemic behind us and get on with dealing with the real problems facing the country, these three just can’t give up the limelight. Why would they sign off on a deal with the federal government only to walk away from it within weeks. These three only care about themselves. Andrews, Palaszczuk and McGowan made themselves heroes by holding the nation hostage. And they can’t bear letting go, even though the other western nations are through the worst of COVID-19 and are busy putting the pandemic in the rearview mirror. Their formula is simple. Grandstand by pulling the only lever they have – lockdowns and the fantasy of “zero cases” – while desperately trying to make all the problems belong to someone else. You can’t attend the funeral of a close relative? Not their problem. Your business is going broke? Not their problem. You can’t work and your kids are climbing up the walls? Not their problem. It’s just petty politics at its worst and every day you’ll be paying the price for it. The Premiers get to stay in the limelight and belt the Coalition in Canberra ahead of next year’s federal election. *Meanwhile, the health systems in Victoria, Queensland and Western Australia are crumbling.* Emergency patients are treated in ambulances outside hospitals because there are no beds for them, even in states with no COVID-19. It’s time Andrews, Palaszczuk and McGowan stopped putting themselves first. Australians know there’s a path out of the pandemic and it’s time these three got on board.

----------


## Marc

Barber, cafe, restaurant.
Yet the local Target/Kmart made a big display of their newly found powers. 
it is rather sad yet not surprising, that you see the tv dude attitude correct. He has no right to ask, it is me in my own house that could ask but choose not to.

----------


## r3nov8or

Melbourne starts it's re-opening on Friday. No travel limit within metro Melb (but not to regional yet), 10 visitors to homes, public gatherings etc

----------


## Bros

> These three only care about themselves. Andrews, Palaszczuk and McGowan made themselves heroes by holding the nation hostage.

  Cant speak for Andrews bur Palaszczuk and McGowan have certainly demonstrated their stand has been popular by the electors.   

> *Meanwhile, the health systems in Victoria, Queensland and Western Australia are crumbling.* Emergency patients are treated in ambulances outside hospitals because there are no beds for them, even in states with no COVID-19.

  Add NSW to that list as the public hospital system has been staved for funding Australia wide for years.   

> Australians know there’s a path out of the pandemic and it’s time these three got on board.

  I'm happy as it is and I'm not alone.

----------


## phild01

> NSW is leading the way, with people back at work, visiting the family and friends they haven’t seen in months and finally sinking a few beers at the pub.

   Only because Delta took hold and a panic began for vaccinations. Had that not happened NSW would not necessarily be leading the charge. As for other states lagging, people there will be groaning about their limited travel options and might get their numbers up. A good dose of Delta will certainly get them moving.

----------


## Bros

> Only because Delta took hold and a panic began for vaccinations. Had that not happened NSW would not necessarily be leading the charge. As for other states lagging, people there will be groaning about their limited travel options and might get their numbers up. A good dose of Delta will certainly get them moving.

  You are correct as complacency has taken over here. Now with the fast acting vaccines freely available there shouldn't be the attitude that they scared people into getting the second AZ vaccine before it was due, I hope those who did will not suffer any consequences.

----------


## Jon

> it is rather sad yet not surprising, that you see the tv dude attitude correct. He has no right to ask, it is me in my own house that could ask but choose not to.

  The TV guy could be asking so that he knows the risk profile he is walking into and can adjust his work method and PPE to suit. 
I had to work with a new contractor today and volunteered my Vax status and asked theirs so we both knew where we stood.  If they had said they were unvaxed I would have requested that we both kept our face masks on.

----------


## phild01

:What he said:  ...though I thought face masks were required regardless.

----------


## Marc

> The TV guy could be asking so that he knows the risk profile he is walking into and can adjust his work method and PPE to suit. 
> I had to work with a new contractor today and volunteered my Vax status and asked theirs so we both knew where we stood.  If they had said they were unvaxed I would have requested that we both kept our face masks on.

  You miss the point just like Metrix did. 
If you have concerns about going into someone's house, you can ask over the phone before coming. And the way to ask is to volunteer your status first and then politely ask to reciprocate. 
No one has the right to barge in my house with the opening sentence -Are you "double" vaccinated. It is rude and patronising, plus, he never stated if he himself is vaccinated.
What if I am single vaccinated? Or never vaccinated? Or had covid and recovered? Do I have to explain to an ignoramus how immunity works? Not my job.
Do you walk in a bus or train and ask for other people's status? Taxi driver? Coffee shop? Pub?  
Not even surgery employees are all vaccinated, as I know for a fact. Health orders are not there to turn the common person into a member of the inquisition. And the tradesman that needs to do some work in people's homes, if himself vaccinated should be aware that his risk profile is the same when he goes to do a job, or when he goes to the pub or goes shopping, highly dependent of his own health condition rather than others'.

----------


## Marc

> Hard to believe you were lost for words.

  It's a pity you live so far away. Despite what you may think, I am sure we would get along just fine.

----------


## Jonno80

> You miss the point just like Metrix did. 
> If you have concerns about going into someone's house, you can ask over the phone before coming. And the way to ask is to volunteer your status first and then politely ask to reciprocate. 
> No one has the right to barge in my house with the opening sentence -Are you "double" vaccinated. It is rude and patronising, plus, he never stated if he himself is vaccinated.
> What if I am single vaccinated? Or never vaccinated? Or had covid and recovered? Do I have to explain to an ignoramus how immunity works? Not my job.
> Do you walk in a bus or train and ask for other people's status? Taxi driver? Coffee shop? Pub?  
> Not even surgery employees are all vaccinated, as I know for a fact. Health orders are not there to turn the common person into a member of the inquisition. And the tradesman that needs to do some work in people's homes, if himself vaccinated should be aware that his risk profile is the same when he goes to do a job, or when he goes to the pub or goes shopping, highly dependent of his own health condition rather than others'.

  The whole situation is just weird.  If people trust the efficacy of the vaccine, just go about your business without needing to enquire about whether another person has taken a vaccine. I think the social situation is strange because people don't even know why they are vaccinated, or worse not honest with themselves. Is it to protect yourself or to protect others, or coercion? If you listen to the simplistic child-like language of politicians I wouldn't blame someone for being confused. They haven't been honest about their intentions, whether they feel they "just know what is best for you" or whether it's to reduce load on a tax-payer funded healthcare system, or whether they wrongly believe "the unvaxxed" are going to be plague-carriers. 
On a society level I'm willing to hear that conversation, but on small scale social interactions, whether or not you've had a particular covid therapy is noone else's business. Get over it, go about your day. If people were rational about it, the safest people are probably those who have had covid and have a natural immunity. But then you'd miss out on the sweet feeling of getting that little sticker and putting the "Im vaxxed" halo around your social media profile photo. 
It's all totally above board and totally about the science and totally about doing the right thing.

----------


## METRIX

> You miss the point just like Metrix did. 
> If you have concerns about going into someone's house, you can ask over the phone before coming. And the way to ask is to volunteer your status first and then politely ask to reciprocate. 
> No one has the right to barge in my house with the opening sentence -Are you "double" vaccinated. It is rude and patronising, plus, he never stated if he himself is vaccinated.
> What if I am single vaccinated? Or never vaccinated? Or had covid and recovered? Do I have to explain to an ignoramus how immunity works? Not my job.
> Do you walk in a bus or train and ask for other people's status? Taxi driver? Coffee shop? Pub?  
> Not even surgery employees are all vaccinated, as I know for a fact. Health orders are not there to turn the common person into a member of the inquisition. And the tradesman that needs to do some work in people's homes, if himself vaccinated should be aware that his risk profile is the same when he goes to do a job, or when he goes to the pub or goes shopping, highly dependent of his own health condition rather than others'.

  
You need to stop overanalysing everything, I hardly think someone would come barging in uninvited, I don't know of any people that come to my door that come barging in, if he came in you obviously invited him in.
He has every right to ask if you are vaccinated, after all he is entering your premises for an undisclosed amount of time, if he felt there was a risk then he may not have come in, or may have implemented other PPE, who knows. 
Rude and patronising, you need to get out Marc and start living life as per normal again, go out on the boat, start doing the things you used to do before, instead of living by what you read online.
Get back your old sense of humour and helping others, lately the person I see on here is not the Marc of old.

----------


## Marc

I hear you, however it is not exactly like that.
It is easy to agree on technical matters at different levels of competence. It is entirely different when the discussion ventures into subject matter that is both not well known and subject to massive political manipulation. 
Just like "global warming", religious or political convictions, the recent culture of "correctness" has turned a great number of topics into either tabu, or the subject of tribalism. Consensus is king, dissent is anathema.  
We can disagree without mistrust, the internet has turned everyone into an epidemiologist, yet I can go back to the seventies helping my brother in law with hip surgery holding a B&D. 
My exposure to medical matters is the result of chance and I don't claim any intellectual effort to achieve what I know, yet I know BS when I see it.  
We all fall in the tribalism and intolerance trap, just watch the alacrity in deleting some of my post.  
Medice, cura te ipsum...  or if you prefer, Médecin, guéris-toi toi-même.   :Smilie:  
Working on the boat. Currently replacing shaft dampener and stuffing box. 
Thinking in repowering to bring the hull to the plane. 7KN not fun, 25KN much better

----------


## UseByDate

> It's all totally above board and totally about the science and totally about doing the right thing.

  The voice of reason...or is it? :Confused:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PIU7AneaZg

----------


## Bros

> Despite what you may think, I am sure we would get along just fine.

  Now that's a worry.

----------


## Moondog55

For those who think they may be having a "Long" reaction to the vaccine. https://aems.tga.gov.au/report-unreg...mNO7NTl6qOt-I8

----------


## Marc

No relationship between vaccination rates and cases?  https://youtu.be/HeSJWGSnN8A?t=1

----------


## phild01

> No relationship between vaccination rates and cases?  https://youtu.be/HeSJWGSnN8A?t=1

  https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skep...king-research/   They chose to look at 68 countries, except they don’t list out any inclusion criteria for choosing which countries to include. And in their list, France, the UK, and Germany were not included – all of which have shown a huge drop in COVID-19 rates as a result of high vaccine uptake. This is a huge sign of bias and cherry-picking.They include low GDP countries where vaccination rates are low, but testing levels are similarly low. Using data from these countries may provide with a unreasonably low level of COVID-19.Country-level research is not the way to do proper epidemiology, which is why I am surprised that this paper was published in an ostensibly higher quality epidemiology journal. Confounding variables, from access to healthcare to income, can influence these results. In fact, the level of testing itself is a huge confounding factor that is completely ignored by the authors. Why? Accounting for confounding is one of the most important aspects of good epidemiological research.The same can be written about county-level data in the USA. There is a wide range of testing and reporting across all of the counties. It’s difficult to make any reasonable comparison between Los Angeles County in California and Brevard County in Florida.The worst part of this study is that it focused on cases, which is one criteria. However, there are others that are actually more important in determining effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines – hospitalization, ICU, and mortality rates tell us more information about these vaccines. Let’s talk about IsraelThe authors, like many others, are using Israel as a case study for the failure of vaccines. Unfortunately, their commentary about Israel’s experience with the Pfizer vaccine, like almost everything else they write in this article, is filled with bias and poor analysis. Yes, Israel was one of the first countries to vaccinate the majority of their population against COVID-19. Yet, over the past few months, they have had extremely high rates of infection. But a deeper analysis of what’s happening in Israel can lead us to different conclusions:  Yes, we see waning immunity. This happens with all vaccines, that’s why a booster is being proposed. Also, the mRNA vaccines allow sceintists to adjust the antigens created by the vaccine to make it better, but that takes time. Unless you’re in love with the Nirvana fallacy, even a vaccine with waning immunity is better than nothing.The Delta variant caused more breakthroughs. Mutations happen, that’s why we need a new flu vaccine every year.Even if you get a breakthrough infection after being vaccinated, generally the vaccinated have lower rates of hospitalization, ICU stays, and death than unvaccinated. Subramanian and Kumar completely miss this point in their paper.Even though Israel had a high rate of vaccination, that was for eligible individuals over the age of 12. Actually, only 58% of the population was vaccinated, which is not high enough. It’s hard to tell what the exact herd immunity level is for COVID-19, but it’s probably close ot 88%. Israel may have been highly vaccinated, but not nearly highly enough.Vaccines aren’t everything – facemasks, restrictions on group gatherings, and other mitigation efforts cannot be ignored even if vaccinated.Despite the claims of Subramanian and Kumar, that immunity from a natural infection is better than the vaccine, one must remember that getting immunity from the disease means you’ve had to contract COVID-19 which kills. Israel isn’t an argument against the COVID-19 vaccines, it shows issues with how to mitigate COVID-19 rates with vaccines.

----------


## Marc

As usual, the websites dedicated to "fact check", fall in the trap they pretend to "bust". Half truth, manipulation and obfuscation with an agenda. If you want to study poverty, you don't include Mosman.  
Anyone with a smidgeon of knowledge in statistics, knows that the choice of the sample is the privilege of the study. Entire countries were chosen, and not one but 68, and 2500 US counties. The exclusion of some european countries with known results is also telling. Rather than denouncing "cherrypicking", the misinformation police should think there must be something else. Two countries have one positive and the other negative relationship with vaccine numbers and infections? the human body is the same, the vaccine is the same ... what causes this? 
The article highlights an anomaly. The anomaly is not in one individual country, or one province or one suburb. It is a massive anomaly that has no apparent explanation. Trying to hide it by including the few known countries that oppose the trend would not serve any purpose. I guess that you have not listened to any part of the video and rushed to find who can bust it.
THat's OK with me, but if you had bothered listening to the end you would have learned that the purpose was not to say vaccines are useless, but rather that there are many other factors at play and that the obsession with the vaccine or bust, and the ostracism we subject people who do not vaccine is perhaps as ill advised as the burning of the witches.  
If you want to point out a real farce, check out the "cases" religiously recited every day, that do not tell how many test were required to find one case, the only number that really matters.  
The conclusion, far from saying vaccines are no good, is that countries each have different idiosyncrasy and behaviours some of which facilitate contagion. Case in point the wildfire in the SW Sydney where the middle eastern community managed to triple or quadruple the rate of infections with their peculiar behaviours.  
The vaccine is the same, the population is different. The vaccine is so so effective, nothing we can do about it, it is what it is. Many other factors to be taken into account.
And maybe one day someone will publicly debunk the farce of the "case numbers"

----------


## ForeverYoung

> For those who think they may be having a "Long" reaction to the vaccine. https://aems.tga.gov.au/report-unreg...mNO7NTl6qOt-I8

  I looked at their reporting a little while ago, it reminded my cynical side of black holes.
The reports talk about side effects that last a few days and the more serious ones of clots (mainly AZ) and heart inflammation (mainly Pfizer) but nothing in between - doesn't pass the sniff test.

----------


## Bros

Talking to two friends on mine over the last couple of weeks and one is a part time employee of a nursing home and when the vaccine mandate came for them 11 left, with my other friend who has his mother in a another one when that happened there half the staff walked out. 
I don't know what to make of each of these incidents and I believe it would be widespread, something I haven't seen in the media.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Talking to two friends on mine over the last couple of weeks and one is a part time employee of a nursing home and when the vaccine mandate came for them 11 left, with my other friend who has his mother in a another one when that happened there half the staff walked out.

  I know a few who are quitting, one a teacher, one a Qantas pilot, one a firefighter...   

> I don't know what to make of each of these incidents and I believe it would be widespread, something I haven't seen in the media.

  Can't scare the herd. 
Something else you won't have seen in our media. UK adds nerve disorder as rare side-effect of AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine | Reuters

----------


## phild01

> UK adds nerve disorder as rare side-effect of AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine | Reuters

  I've had some of these symptoms recently: The symptoms of Guillain-Barré syndrome include:  muscle weakness and paralysis affecting both sides of the bodyjerky, uncoordinated movementsnumbnessmuscle aches, pains or crampsodd sensations such as vibrations, buzzing or ‘crawling’ under the skinblurred visiondizzinessbreathing problems https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/...C3%A9-syndrome

----------


## ForeverYoung

> I've had some of these symptoms recently: The symptoms of Guillain-Barré syndrome include:  muscle weakness and paralysis affecting both sides of the bodyjerky, uncoordinated movementsnumbnessmuscle aches, pains or crampsodd sensations such as vibrations, buzzing or ‘crawling’ under the skinblurred visiondizzinessbreathing problems  https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/...C3%A9-syndrome

   

> Sorry we have a problem with the page you requested We are aware of the issue and are working hard to fix it....Go home

  Your link is broken.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Your link is broken.

  Weird. It actually loads for a split second and then says Sorry

----------


## r3nov8or

This one is better...  https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/...barre-syndrome

----------


## r3nov8or

More here re GBS (Au site), and the second half provides some updates on other complications with AZ and Pfizer  https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...or-astrazeneca

----------


## phild01

> Your link is broken.

  Yeah, it is now...strange. I had it up for quite awhile.

----------


## Marc

I noticed a subtle yet significant change in the reporting of covid "cases" and deaths. Lately the litany is, number of death _with_ covid, and not from it. 
Who order the change in wording? we will most likely never know, however this form of statistical fraud with a scaremongering agenda has been going on for a long time. 
It reminds me of the story from Edgar Allan Poe in Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer, not sure. A guy had an ingrown toenail. He hit his toe on a tree root and hopped in pain, stumbled over a well wall and fell in it drowning. 
The epitaph read, "Died from an ingrown toenail" 
There is a good article about it in "The Conversation"  https://theconversation.com/died-fro...-deaths-145438 
Here is some of it: 
The COVID-19 death toll is reported every day by state and federal governments. These numbers are often used, alongside case numbers, to assess how public health policies are faring in controlling the pandemic, and to gauge the success of various drugs or interventions. There’s been confusion, however, over whether reported death statistics reflect those who’ve died _from_ COVID-19, or those who’ve died _with_ the virus. Often it’s hard for medical practitioners to determine which of these categories a death falls into. But the COVID-19 death toll publicised daily on Australian state and territory government websites and reported to the press does not differentiate between the two. It includes all people who’ve died with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) in their body. It’s unclear if the federal government currently makes this distinction or not. Lumping these statistics together makes it hard for the public to understand the true impact of the virus. Clarifying what’s being counted as a COVID-19 death is necessary for understanding the impact of the virus, and for informing public health and clinical responses to the pandemic. If we know who is susceptible to dying _with_ COVID-19 because of pre-existing conditions, public health responses could more effectively target and protect potentially vulnerable people and communities. We are not suggesting this is a reason to downplay the seriousness of the virus, but rather that successful public health engagement requires open communication of death causation data, especially in a pandemic. Therefore, we need a transparent approach to counting and reporting coronavirus deaths in Australia.

----------


## Marc

Remember when we couldn't understand the unprecedented aggression from officials and medicos against all treatment that are not a vaccine? 
Here is one reason *Pfizer Can Prevent Use of Other Remedies*Equally shocking, though, is that countries are forced to follow through on their vaccine orders even if other drugs or treatments emerge that can prevent, treat or cure COVID-19.7 Is it any wonder, then, that governments around the world have suppressed the use of drugs like hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin? If these drugs were allowed to be used and could be proven to work, the COVID injections would be completely unnecessary, yet governments are on the hook for hundreds of millions of doses. While COVID-19 vaccines are "free" to receive in the U.S., they're being paid for by taxpayer dollars at a rate of $19.50 per dose. In Albania, the cost of each dose is $12, and in the EU, $14.70. In the case of the price disparity between the U.S. and the EU, Pfizer is said to have given a price break to the EU because it financially supported the development of their COVID-19 vaccine. 
Some more shocking corruption here: https://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...rid=1309531517

----------


## phild01

During the COVID-19 pandemic, Mercola spread misinformation about the virus and pseudoscientific anti-vaccine misinformation on social media platforms;[10][11][12] researchers have identified him as the "chief spreader of coronavirus misinformation online".[10][13][14][15] He has been warned numerous times by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for selling unapproved health products, including supposed treatments for COVID-19.[14]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

----------


## Marc

Gravitas is not Mercola.  https://youtu.be/nYIJxoh7gqw 
And I wouldn't worry about so called "misinformation" ... rather worry about disinformation especially corporate and government one.  ... amid the push to get large swaths of the population vaccinated, some immunologists and doctors have argued that natural immunity needs more research and should be factored into policy decision-making.Steve Templeton, an immunologist with Indiana University’s school of medicine, wrote that “the key to ending the pandemic has always been the immune system.” “The fact that so many have recovered from infection and that robust, durable, and protective immunity in those individuals has been unequivocally proven should be considered a good thing,” he said in an article dated Oct. 22, adding that “there appears to be a drive to cancel the term ‘natural immunity,’ a pretense that the vaccinated need fear the unvaccinated, and an unwillingness to treat the public as adults that can handle nuanced information and make decisions regarding their health.”

----------


## METRIX

To those that were worried about not being able to get a booster shot, here is one less thing to worry about. 
Booster shots available to everyone over 18 who 2nd shot was 6 months or more ago, people aged over 50 and immune compromised are being recommended to get it ASAP.  https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infect...ton_x#eligible

----------


## Bros

> To those that were worried about not being able to get a booster shot, here is one less thing to worry about. 
> Booster shots available to everyone over 18 who 2nd shot was 6 months or more ago, people aged over 50 and immune compromised are being recommended to get it ASAP.

  No mentioned about those who got the Astra vaccine at shorter intervals than recommended.

----------


## phild01

> No mentioned about those who got the Astra vaccine at shorter intervals than recommended.

  They wanted me back after 5 weeks, just got it last week after 13 and happy to have waited it out. Yours would be about due!

----------


## sol381

So does anyone know if this booster shot will be required every year or are we done with it.

----------


## Jonno80

> So does anyone know if this booster shot will be required every year or are we done with it.

  The trusting and loving government clearly said that it wouldn't be mandatory yet

----------


## Bros

> They wanted me back after 5 weeks, just got it last week after 13 and happy to have waited it out. Yours would be about due!

   Last week at week 11 don’t think a week would make any difference.

----------


## Marc

> They wanted me back after 5 weeks, just got it last week after 13 and happy to have waited it out ...

  You have done well.
Unfortunately there is no reliable way to test immunity levels, in order to decide if or when to have a booster.
We are still in the "poke in the dark" stage with antibody testing, one reason the "immunity passport", a politician's dream, was scrapped. 
For those interested, here is a good article on the "flawed" science of antibodies.   

> The SARS-CoV-2 serology tests that eventually received FDA Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) have demonstrated high sensitivity and specificity, but that accuracy is for detecting antibodies. Their ability to predict protection against the virus based on those antibodies hasn’t been proven. Plus, the FDA cautioned that some tests detect antibodies the immune system likely produces only after natural infection with the virus. Depending on the assay, people who weren’t previously infected could test negative for antibodies despite having vaccine–induced immunity.

  https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2785530   

> So does anyone know if this booster shot will be required every year or are we done with it.

  Most likely will be incorporated to the yearly flu vaccine, if in one or separate shots I don't know. 
Don't worry too much about mandates. QR scanning is already on the decline fast. Domestic vaccine interrogation by cocky employees seems to have gone too.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> ... 
> Me? I am double vaxed AZ. But have had side effects for 4 months now (in short I have long covid without the covid). No one official wants to know officially, so those with side effects are driven to other forums to try and get help - mainly social media, which can be useful but is also full of drongos. [Some say the best way to disparage a good idea is to get a drongo to promulgate it].
> The anti vaxers in my circle are my new besties  because they think I am evidence of their concerns. And yes, maybe. I figure that the numbers are small that might be having side effects. We might never know actual numbers. 
> The pro vaxers in my circle are totally dismissive of my AZ reaction - looking for everything else to blame. As am I.
> But when they suggest alternative reasons and I say I have been tested for that and nope, they come up with something else. Nope again.
> I am still pursuing answers ... meanwhile social media (mainly UK with big AZ there) are saying me-too.
> My GP says _correlation isn't causation_ so on we go.

  Just thought I would report back.
My ill health has receded. Thank dog.
Pursued tests and specialists via my GP as to the cause. Nothing found.
The tests and scans did reveal 2 underlying issues but no one thinks these would result in the symptoms I have had.
The unwellness I have had for 4 months has been masking these underlying issues and when that abated we could firm up an opinion on them - ironically it was a test/scan I suggested to the GP that found one of them; so I was more intent on finding non vax causes than he was in a way.
So cause of unwellness? Who knows. Chances are it was a reaction to the AZ vax which took months to go away. This story is not new (to me), seems to a theme in the UK where AZ was given earlier but we will probably never know.

----------


## METRIX

The scaremongering is well and truly alive in WA, obviously he hasn't been reading any of the statistics, because his "COVID is Rife and lots of people are dying in NSW and VIC" comments don't line up with what's actually the truth in NSW. 
Even VIC figures are dropping quickly but they still have a bit to go.
Enough with the scary face tactics, just get on with getting your people vaccinated, and open the doors so families can be reunited, even QLD has committed to a date (lets see if this changes at the 12th hour) 
The power trip is scary in WA, he is just jealous because you can now fly in and out International from Sydney and Melbourne, if double vax and negative test, no quarantine needed upon return.  https://www.lonelyplanet.com/article...ules-explained
Also, the majority of quarantine hotels in Sydney are actually a hotel again, shock horror what is this world coming to.    https://www.skynews.com.au/australia...2e20af30dba5d2   https://covidlive.com.au/nsw

----------


## METRIX

And so they should delay the unvaccinated freedoms, if they don't want to do their bit then they should have to wait longer, which is now 95% Double vax, genuine exempted people should not have to suffer. 
NSW will be at 95% soon anyway, they are currently at 88.3% Second dose, and 93.6% Single, expected 95% around December 15th.
My LGA and adjoining LGA'S have already exceed 95% double dose, as have a lot of other LGA's in Sydney.   
They have also changed the rules for an exemption as people were abusing their doctors for not giving them an exemption especially in Rural areas. 
There is a form that has to be filled out and sent to the NSW gov't for verification before a vaccine exemption will be issued by NSW Health.
So it's out of the doctors hands now, this is for all new and any existing exemptions, the form needs to be submitted for any existing exemptions that were issued, wonder how many of them will be rejected.  https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infect...indication.pdf

----------


## Bros

> The scaremongering is well and truly alive in WA, obviously he hasn't been reading any of the statistics, because his "COVID is Rife and lots of people are dying in NSW and VIC" comments don't line up with what's actually the truth in NSW. 
> Even VIC figures are dropping quickly but they still have a bit to go.
> Enough with the scary face tactics, just get on with getting your people vaccinated, and open the doors so families can be reunited, even QLD has committed to a date (lets see if this changes at the 12th hour) 
> The power trip is scary in WA, he is just jealous because you can now fly in and out International from Sydney and Melbourne, if double vax and negative test, no quarantine needed upon return.

   You are looking at it from a NSW point of view, I think you would find the view much different from a WA point of view.
As for QLD I believe a lot of people would rather the border stayed closed until all the Covid was eradicated from NSW. Some people are complaining but looking closer to who's complaining it is the tourist operators at the Gold Coast who cant charge eye watering prices for their Christmas accommodation. Availability of accommodation is now is difficult as most accommodation places are doing well. 
There is another issue in Queensland and I would suspect other states who have mandated health workers be vaccinated with them voting with their feet. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...date/100588708. 
As for NSW covid cases I am surprised by the numbers going down as this is the opposite to those countries who have lifted their restrictions as the cases have rapidly gone the other way, maybe it will given time.

----------


## phild01

> As for QLD I believe a lot of people would rather the border stayed closed until all the Covid was eradicated from NSW.

  Not sure how that can happen, international travel has opened up and is inevitable the covid tap will keep running. WA and Qld will be isolated for a very long time if they were to keep the borders closed.    

> There is another issue in Queensland and I would suspect other states who have mandated health workers be vaccinated with them voting with their feet. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...date/100588708.

  That would change once covid breaks out, they will get the vax.   

> As for NSW covid cases I am surprised by the numbers going down as this is the opposite to those countries who have lifted their restrictions as the cases have rapidly gone the other way, maybe it will given time.

  The other countries have open borders so NSW may well follow with increased numbers too, wait and see as the new Premier wants us mingling much more too.

----------


## doovalacky

Saw this coming a bit ago and while I would have liked to wait a few more months before getting the vaccine its the choice of job or no job.

----------


## Jonno80

I feel like I'm watching the banality of evil in action.

----------


## METRIX

> You are looking at it from a NSW point of view, I think you would find the view much different from a WA point of view.
> As for QLD I believe a lot of people would rather the border stayed closed until all the Covid was eradicated from NSW. Some people are complaining but looking closer to who's complaining it is the tourist operators at the Gold Coast who cant charge eye watering prices for their Christmas accommodation. Availability of accommodation is now is difficult as most accommodation places are doing well. 
> There is another issue in Queensland and I would suspect other states who have mandated health workers be vaccinated with them voting with their feet. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...date/100588708. 
> As for NSW covid cases I am surprised by the numbers going down as this is the opposite to those countries who have lifted their restrictions as the cases have rapidly gone the other way, maybe it will given time.

  Of course its a different view in WA, because they have completely isolated the state from the rest of not only Australia but the world and have a govt who has used scare tactics to control what the people are doing and how they think. 
They have created a safety blanket, and people are now scared as the party is coming to an end and reality hits, you can't keep living like that many thousands of people need to travel to see family, friends etc. 
It would be great if covid was eradicated completely from NSW but it's not going to happen, as you saw all it took last time was one stupid limo driver to cause a massive outbreak. 
There is going to be more of it slip through the system and come in via international flights, all you can do is get vaccinated and be sensible about what you do, you cant stay locked up forever hoping for the best. 
Covid is basically the new influenza, it killed hundreds of people every year in Australia, covid will continue do the same until every person in the world can build some immunity to it, will it evolve every year like influenza does, most likely, will it ever be eradicated most likely not. 
Even NZ hasn't got rid of it, they currently have nearly 2000 active cases, around 129 per day new cases, that's from a population of only 5 million the same as Sydney / Melbourne, they had no inbound tourist flights, basically an iron fortress around their island and were still unable to eradicate it.  
NSW cases have gone down because people are aware of their surroundings, mask wearing is still the normal even where not required.
Yes the numbers will start to go up again at some stage, the Spanish flu took two years to officially come to an end, in those days there were no vaccinations and they didn't know what caused the flu or how to treat it. 
It killed an estimated 3% of the population, doctors were prescribing high doses of Asprin as they didn't really have anything else, dosed of 30g were being prescribed, which we now know is toxic, anything above 4g per day is considered life threatening. 
In 2008 they discovered what caused it, but that's another story, 
At least QLD new non crazy health officer is being real about the situation saying to get vaccinated as it's going to come in so be prepared, unlike the old crazy one who did more damage to the reputation of vaccines than every other person / govt combined, and what did she get, the Queen gave her a promotion to governor, maybe ICAC should be investigating these clowns after they have finished with Gladys. 
What happened to Dr Krispin Hajkowicz he only lasted a few day in the new CHO role then resigned ?

----------


## phild01

> Even NZ hasn't got rid of it, they currently have nearly 2000 active cases, around 129 per day new cases, that's from a population of only 5 million the same as Sydney / Melbourne, they had no inbound tourist flights, basically an iron fortress around their island and were still unable to eradicate it.

  I think NZ has worked out that the outbreak was from a quarantined returned traveller from Australia.   

> as you saw all it took last time was one stupid limo driver to cause a massive outbreak.

  Not sure it is fair to call him stupid considering how stupid some of our control measures were implemented.

----------


## METRIX

> I think NZ has worked out that the outbreak was from a quarantined returned traveller from Australia.  
> Not sure it is fair to call him stupid considering how stupid some of our control measures were implemented.

  I think it's fair, he was caught after causing the issue still not wearing a mask when required, and was fined $500, so Yes I would call him stupid.

----------


## phild01

> I think it's fair, he was caught after causing the issue still not wearing a mask when required, and was fined $500, so Yes I would call him stupid.

  Probably so though I don't know first hand the circumstances. For me I have caught myself once or twice not wearing a mask or using a QR code, purely accidental not intentionally. Wasn't there some loophole where he wasn't required to wear a mask. Actually he wasn't charged for that incident. I think he was fined when caught by a reporter not wearing a mask in open air. So if a reporter was following anyone around then likely they would too be caught at some stage without a mask.

----------


## Bros

> Of course its a different view in WA, because they have completely isolated the state from the rest of not only Australia but the world and have a govt who has used scare tactics to control what the people are doing and how they think.

  Isn't that what all people do when they have power, Police, Media, Politicians, Health professionals they all resort scare tactics.    

> the Queen gave her a promotion to governor,

  Where have you been as it is equal opportunity nowdays not only jobs for the boys but jobs for the girls.
All governments use these types of promotions as either a thank you or to move you to where you have less influence.   

> What happened to Dr Krispin Hajkowicz he only lasted a few day in the new CHO role then resigned ?

  You tell me and we will both know.

----------


## Bros

> Saw this coming a bit ago and while I would have liked to wait a few more months before getting the vaccine its the choice of job or no job.

  That's the way it is and if you lose your job and you have particular skills that are needed and the only employment offered requires vaccination you do have a gun to your head.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Of course its a different view in WA, because they have completely isolated the state from the rest of not only Australia but the world and have a govt who has used scare tactics to control what the people are doing and how they think. 
> They have created a safety blanket, and people are now scared as the party is coming to an end and reality hits, you can't keep living like that many thousands of people need to travel to see family, friends etc....

  meh.
WA has had a lot of freedom since this all began. Life normal except for travel (and I regard it as a privilege not a right).
So, you think Vic and NSW govts didn't use scare tactics?
I have no time for McGowan and his arrogance will be his downfall (this would have happened covid regardless). 
McGowan is trying to get the vax numbers up (no other state has gone as hard on mandating vax for workers) but he won't open up til the numbers are up.
This was the same in other States. Other States eg Vic and NSW only got their vax numbers up when covid was out of control (ie trace and isolate was no longer containing it).
It might take the same '_scare tactic_' to get the numbers up in WA.
WA is a bit different to NSW and Vic in that the remote areas have low vax rates and are quite vulnerable - it is one thing to look at vax percentage for the State and another to look at particular regional areas. 
Will the vax numbers get high without covid being in WA? Good question. I doubt it. People gonna people.

----------


## Marc

*Mandates have nothing to do with public health* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnB8Tep92Us

----------


## Marc

Romanian MEP Cristian Terheș speaking at the European Parliament    https://www.facebook.com/joshyjones8...59375491456224

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Despite high vaccination levels, Singapore reports 14 deaths and 2,470 new cases in the last 24 hoursFrom December 8, all COVID-19 *patients who choose not to be vaccinated will need to cover their own medical expenses*Those who are partially vaccinated will lose Singapore government coverage for COVID-19 from December 31

   

> Singapore is one of the world's most inoculated countries with more than 85 per cent of the population having received two doses of a coronavirus vaccine, with 18 per cent given booster shots.

   

> the nation of 5.7 million people

  Singapore to bill unvaccinated COVID-19 patients as fresh infections surge across island - ABC News

----------


## Marc

Protein based vaccine, low tech and slower but perhaps better. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03025-0

----------


## Marc

Our obsession and fear of a virus with a 99% survival rate meant that for every 1000 covid death we ignored 200,000 who died from other causes.
This is what happens when a disease is useful to politicians for opportunistic power grabs, grandstanding and high moral posturing. 
And next year is the turn of climate change posturing.
What will politicians destroy to achieve their goals of world dominance?

----------


## PhilT2

What's the maximum number of times one can be vaccinated? Asking for a friend... https://www.thedailybeast.com/brothe...paign?ref=home

----------


## John2b

Just don't mention quality of life for the ~20% of those 99% of Covid survivors who suffer 'long covid', and live with tiredness, difficulty breathing, a persistent cough, chest pain, joint pain, no energy, fever, headaches, ‘brain fog’, depression and anxiety.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Just don't mention quality of life for the ~20% of those 99% of Covid survivors who suffer 'long covid', and live with tiredness, difficulty breathing, a persistent cough, chest pain, joint pain, no energy, fever, headaches, ‘brain fog’, depression and anxiety.

  A guy at work in his late 30s has long COVID. Apart from the physical issues, he's suffering mentally as he just doesn't know what it all means for him and his young family

----------


## Bros

Talking to a friend of mine last night and he is over 70 and hung out for the Pfizer and had the 2 injections and he got a message from the doctor to have his booster after 2 months. Today at our Mens shed I was talking to others there who go to the same doctor and he wants them to have the booster before QLD opens up. 
He told them the optimum time for boosters was 2 to 6 months. With the considerable degradation of Astra protection a booster earlier then 6 months could be an advantage. 
 This doctor is no cowboy and has a good reputation so has anyone seen any reference to this "optimum" time?

----------


## Bros

> What's the maximum number of times one can be vaccinated? Asking for a friend...

   Tell your friend that the place in question only sells the other Pfizer product packaged in a blue wrapper.

----------


## Marc

A bit of confusion there Bros ... people that are immunocompromised, that is who's immune system does not react as strongly as desired, need a third shot of the vaccine to achieve an optimum *initial* level of immunity. 
This is done two month after the second dose with Pfizer.  
The booster, that by the way is the same product, not something different, is given 6 month after the second dose or later. 
Why? because a vaccine is by definition reactogenic. To give a third dose too early  to a healthy person has the risk of overreaction, and create all those widely publicised side effects. 
The guidelines are very clear, the booster or third shot is to be given 6 month after the second one and not before. A vaccine is not vitamins that will be eliminated if too many are taken. Too much stimulation to a healthy immune system can be dangerous.
To say that you need another vaccine after 2 month because the border will open is absurd. The virus is everywhere and will stay everywhere for the foreseeable future. 
As an illustration, the cases of death or severe illness after administering the vaccine, could well be cases of strong healthy immune system that was fighting an initial natural infection against the virus at time of vaccination. The mad rush to vaccinate everyone, overlooks the need to assure that the person being vaccinated does not have the virus. A similar situation, mutatis mutandis, happens when a third dose is given way too early.  https://www.health.gov.au/news/boost...vid-19-vaccine https://theconversation.com/why-is-a...romised-166569 https://www.health.gov.au/initiative.../booster-doses

----------


## Bros

> A bit of confusion there Bros ... people that are immunocompromised,

  No confusion from me as that is what I have been told, the second person I mentioned had the Astra some time ago but those who got the Pfizer has threes doses within 6 mths.
I found it hard to believe with the Pfizer as it holds up well over time but I could understand it with the Astra with the immunity decreasing further than Pfizer over time.

----------


## r3nov8or

> No confusion from me as that is what I have been told, the second person I mentioned had the Astra some time ago but those who got the Pfizer has threes doses within 6 mths.
> I found it hard to believe with the Pfizer as it holds up well over time but I could understand it with the Astra with the immunity decreasing further than Pfizer over time.

  I thought they were about equal over time in a normal human? Got any current trusted links that explain the latest 'opinion'? 
Edit: here's one. Seems to align with your statemnent Bros https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/cli...-vaccine-effic

----------


## Bros

> I thought they were about equal over time in a normal human? Got any current trusted links that explain the latest 'opinion'?

  No idea if that is a trusted link and BTW it is not my opinion.  https://www.gov.uk/government/news/o...9-booster-jabs

----------


## Marc

What's that to do with the price of fish?  
Booster, 6 month or more after second dose. Fact.
Giving a booster to a healthy person 2 month after the second dose because the border is going to open? idiotic.

----------


## Bros

> What's that has to do with the price of fish?  
> Booster, 6 month or more after second dose. Fact.
> Giving a booster to a healthy person 2 month after the second dose because the border is going to open? idiotic.

   Be careful as you get off that high horse as I was just asking a question.

----------


## Moondog55

Well my GP is of the opinion that it's better to mix vaccines and that Pfizer is the better option as the booster. I'm going for mine this month with luck.
The practice he's a part of has administered tens of thousands of AZ so far and no reported adverse reactions so those who do react are quite unlucky it seems.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Well my GP is of the opinion that it's better to mix vaccines and that Pfizer is the better option as the booster. I'm going for mine this month with luck.
> The practice he's a part of has administered tens of thousands of AZ so far and no reported adverse reactions so those who do react are quite unlucky it seems.

  Yep, you can't get an AZ booster after they stop making it, in December I believe, so mixing cocktails is then the only booster choice. Or, given it's a different tech (mRNA) will it be categorised as a new vax and you need two of them again? 
From the links above, for long term efficacy it's looking like Moderna is the one to go for...

----------


## phild01

I think I will favour Moderna as a booster in 6 months if still available then. Interested to know more about Novavax too.

----------


## Marc

Novavax is the one to watch. Not mrna … made from army worm cells. Yum

----------


## Moondog55

So in another 6 months or so I'll ask for Moderna, assuming it's still around and they not pulled something even better out of the hat.

----------


## Bros

> Or, given it's a different tech (mRNA) will it be categorised as a new vax and you need two of them again?

  I hope not   

> From the links above, for long term efficacy it's looking like Moderna is the one to go for...

  I did read or heard something a while back that the Moderna can give you greater non serious side effects as it is a stronger vaccine.

----------


## Bros

Someone else thinks 6 mths is to long.   

> Epidemiologist Marylouise McLaws, She said early research showed a booster shot would be required at about the sixth-month mark — sooner depending on which vaccine you've taken. Because AstraZeneca has a lower overall effectiveness than Pfizer (about a 15 per cent difference), the recommended time for a booster shot would come earlier for the former.

  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...eded/100616378

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte has announced a three-week partial lockdown amid surging COVID-19 cases in the Netherlands

   

> Austrian Chancellor Alexander Schallenberg said his country will implement a lockdown for *unvaccinated* people in two hard-hit regions next week and looks poised to move forward with similar measures nationwide.

  Dutch government orders three-week partial lockdown amid COVID surge - ABC News 
It is almost like it is a winter/summer thingy.

----------


## Marc

> It is almost like it is a winter/summer thingy.

  Not almost, it is.  
As for all the "warnings" and new and creative scaremongering, what else is new? They love it and will not let go. 
We need booster? of course we do. Never heard of yearly flu shots? This is just the same.
Novavax is talking combining the two in a yearly vaccine.
Politicians will always benefit from scared and ignorant population running around for someone to 'save' them.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> So in another 6 months or so I'll ask for Moderna, assuming it's still around and they not pulled something even better out of the hat.

   

> The Danish Health Agency is suspending administration of Modernas COVID-19 vaccine for people under 18 years of age, while Sweden announced today that it is doing the same for people under 30, Reuters reports.  Both countries cited data showing a potential increased risk of rare inflammatory heart conditions known as myocarditis and pericarditis among younger people who receive the Moderna shot, and recommended that individuals in those age groups get the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine instead

  Moderna Vaccine Paused for Young People in Two European Countries | The Scientist Magazine® (the-scientist.com)

----------


## r3nov8or

Being lazy here. A guy at work is waiting for Novavax. Is there any "credible" reason for this?

----------


## joynz

> Being lazy here. A guy at work is waiting for Novavax. Is there any "credible" reason for this?

   A friend of mine is doing the same. I believe the Novavax is a more traditional approach to a vaccine, according to the ABC online.   
It’s hard to have a proper conversation about it with her without seeming like I am questioning her choices (which I am privately - along with a lot of people she knows.). 
Still no news about when it will be available though…so she might be waiting a long time.  And locked out of quite a few things in Victoria now we’ve got to 90%.  The ABC article sounded like it was a highly effective vaccine.

----------


## Marc

*Novavax*  The TGA is evaluating a protein vaccine developed by Novavax. It is not yet available in Australia.  *Doses for Australia*  If the TGA approves this vaccine for use in Australia, we expect 51 million doses will be available in late 2021. This is enough doses to cover Australia’s whole population. Doses for Australia may be manufactured in several locations across Europe. The Novavax vaccine is one of 9 supported by the Coalition for Epidemic Preparedness Innovations, a global partnership to accelerate vaccine development. See our fact sheet on Novavax.   *How does the Novavax vaccine work?*   The Novavax vaccine is given as two doses, similar to the Pfizer and AstraZeneca shots already being used in Australia.
It can be stored for up to three months at fridge temperature, which differs from the Pfizer mRNA vaccine which needs to be kept at ultra-low temperatures. In saying that, the TGA said last week the Pfizer vaccine can be stored at normal freezer temperatures for two weeks during transport, and at fridge temperatures for five days — though must still be kept ultra-cold after transport and in the long-term.    Comparing Australia’s three COVID-19 vaccine options. Jamie Triccas, made with BioRender, CC BY-ND  
The vaccine also uses a different technology to the Pfizer and AstraZeneca vaccines. It’s a “protein subunit” vaccine; these are vaccines that introduce a part of the virus to the immune system, but don’t contain any live components of the virus.
The protein part of the vaccine is the coronavirus’ “spike protein”. This is part of the other COVID-19 vaccines in use but in a different form.
The Novavax vaccine uses a version of the spike protein made in the lab. The spike proteins are assembled into tiny particles called “nanoparticles” which aim to resemble the structure of the coronavirus, however they cannot replicate once injected and the vaccine cannot cause you to get COVID-19. 
In order for these subunit vaccines to generate strong protective responses, they need to include molecules that boost your immune system, called “adjuvants”. The goal of these adjuvants is to mimic the way the real virus would activate the immune system, to generate maximum protective immunity.
Novavax includes an adjuvant based on a natural product known as saponin, an extract from the bark of the Chilean soapbark tree.    *How effective is the vaccine compared to those already in use in Australia?*   The interim data from phase 3 testing, released in March, was very encouraging. When tested in the UK in a clinical trial including more that 15,000 people, the vaccine was 96% effective at preventing COVID-19 disease for those infected with the original strain of the coronavirus.
This compares well to the Pfizer vaccine, with an efficacy of 95%, and recent data from AstraZeneca demonstrating 76% efficacy against COVID-19.
The Novavax vaccine is also safe. In early clinical testing the vaccine caused mainly mild adverse events such as pain and tenderness at the injection site, and no serious adverse reactions were recorded. In the larger trials, adverse events occurred at low levels and were similar between the vaccine and placebo groups.    *What about protection against variants?*   In the UK trial, the vaccine maintained strong protection against disease in people infected with the B.1.1.7 “UK variant”, demonstrating 86% efficacy. This is good news because the B.1.1.7 variant is now dominant in many European countries, is more transmissible and deadly than the original SARS-CoV-2 virus, and is responsible for most of the cases that have arisen recently in Australia.
Less encouraging is protection against the B.1.351 variant first identified in South Africa, which can evade immunity that developed in response to earlier versions of the virus. The efficacy of Novavax’s shot dropped to 55% in protecting against COVID-19 symptoms from this variant. Protection against severe disease however was 100%, indicating the vaccine will still be important in reducing hospitalisation and death due to this variant.
Novavax, along with the other major vaccine companies, are developing booster vaccines to target the B.1.351 variant. Novavax are planning to test a “bivalent” vaccine, which targets two different strains, using the spike protein from both the original Wuhan strain and the B.1.351 variant.      This article, which was first published in The Conversation, was written by Professor Jamie Triccas, Professor of Medical Microbiology in the Faculty of Medicine and Health at the University of Sydney. Professor Triccas receives funding from the National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC). 
Professor Triccas is not involved in the review or approval of the Novavax vaccine in Australia. This article was written as an explainer piece only.

----------


## PhilT2

Article about the new Pfizer drug and why Ivermectin doesn't work. https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021...-pfizermectin/ 
tl;dr To get enough Ivermectin into the bloodstream to kill Covid you need about 15 horse dewormers. This will kill you. But at least you won't die of covid. Still be dead though.

----------


## Marc

If only it was so simple. 
Google 'ivermectin does not work' and voila, the truth is revealed. 
To begin with, when you see someone posting a rant of that magnitude with that much ancillary information, to explain his point that can be said in a small paragraph, you know that the mass of information is there to obfuscate and not to illustrate.  
Dr Gorski is a self confessed alternative medicine skeptic and a prolific editor of debunking articles some very valid. His area of expertise is oncology and surgery. 
Do all medical doctors, know all about everything there is to know?
Hardly.
It was medical doctors with prestigious titles that gave us the food pyramid, responsible for an obesity epidemic that is in it's sixth decade and counting. 
It was doctors who repeated ad nauseam that vitamin supplements give you expensive urine, told us matter of fact that one must have multiple small meals a day and labeled fasting a dangerous practice. 
Low fat is another achievement of the medical profession that is responsible for yet another slimming fallacy.  
I can go on for pages just on that small topic alone, but let us see the achievements of the pharmaceutical companies we are supposed to trust, among the shrill accusations of their cheer leaders against anything that resembles an attempt at treat covid, that is not a vaccine. Yes, a _treatment_ ... unheard off! A doctor would dare attempt such absurdity! 
And here are only a few of the most recent deadly concoction the pharmaceutical companies sold us and made beefy profits with, and that we swallowed only to die or be maimed. And no Thalidomide is not in that list. For a more comprehensive historic list see the second link,  https://www.medicalerroraustralia.co...ls-in-history/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs 
So my dear Phil, yes, vaccination is good ... this particular vaccination well, is the only one we have. As for off label treatments for covid, Ivermectin has a record of diminishing the severity of the illness, and does not presume to replace the vaccine. As for the attempts at discrediting the human use of the drug by citing it's veterinary use, well, good luck with that.
It is not the virus of Sars 2 that kills, it's the body's overreaction against the invasion. Ivermectin allegedly targets this reaction just like it does for organism invaded by parasites.  
As for the outcry from the authorities that ivermectin has no safety data, such is a boldface lie. There is over 30 years of safety data.  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26954318/ https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/934595 https://www.infectiousdiseaseadvisor...idal-efficacy/ https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/202/1/113/888773 
And many more you can find by yourself

----------


## PhilT2

> I can go on for pages

  Yes, we know that. Just this once try addressing the point raised by the post.

----------


## Marc

See quote below   

> So my dear Phil, yes, vaccination is good ... this particular vaccination well, is the only one we have. As for off label treatments for covid, Ivermectin has a record of diminishing the severity of the illness, and does not presume to replace the vaccine. As for the attempts at discrediting the human use of the drug by citing it's veterinary use, well, good luck with that.

----------


## Bros

And I thought we were following the Greek alphabet in naming.  
We have gone from Delta to Omicron and missed out on a lot between. 
Oh well here we go again with another virus mutation.

----------


## PhilT2

> And I thought we were following the Greek alphabet in naming.  
> We have gone from Delta to Omicron and missed out on a lot between. 
> Oh well here we go again with another virus mutation.

  Didn't want to use the 14th letter for fear that it might have offended someone, so we went the 15th.

----------


## Bros

> Didn't want to use the 14th letter for fear that it might have offended someone, so we went the 15th.

   :2thumbsup:

----------


## r3nov8or

> And I thought we were following the Greek alphabet in naming.  
> We have gone from Delta to Omicron and missed out on a lot between. 
> Oh well here we go again with another virus mutation.

  Maybe the "laboratories" have "discovered" all the variants in between... but they weren't good enough to release in the wild

----------


## r3nov8or

Sigma will be the next "public" one. Omega is a long long way off, I fear

----------


## Bros

> Omega is a long long way off, I fear

  I hope you are right as it is the end of the road.

----------


## r3nov8or

> I hope you are right as it is the end of the road.

  Haha. Well, I was referring to the end of COVID-19, not the end of the world  :Biggrin:

----------


## ForeverYoung

So, they don't really know yet how much more transmissible (if any) Omicron is, or if it more serious or deadly.
Or how well the existing vaccines handle it. 
But politicians and bureaucrats are saying boosters at 2 months, or 3 months. 
Of course that must mean the _existing_ vaccines because they haven't developed the new ones yet.   

> It also called for booster shots, currently administered at six months after the second dose, to instead be given at *two months*.

  Rapid COVID-19 vaccine booster shot update and retaining masks needed to curtail Omicron, experts say - ABC News   

> The UK’s minimum gap for Covid booster jabs will be halved from six months to three, after the government accepted advice from its vaccines watchdog to speed up the programme to limit the spread of the Omicron variant.

  UK’s minimum gap for Covid booster jabs to be halved to three months | Coronavirus | The Guardian 
From the FT (paywalled)  

> The chief executive of Moderna has predicted that existing vaccines will be much* less effective* at tackling Omicron than earlier strains of Covid-19 and warned it would take months before pharmaceutical companies can manufacture new variant-specific jabs at scale.Stéphane Bancel said the high number of Omicron mutations on the spike protein, which the virus uses to infect human cells, and the rapid spread of the variant in South Africa, suggested the current crop of vaccines may need to be modified *next year*. “There is no world, I think, where [the effectiveness] is the same level . . . we had with Delta,” Bancel told the Financial Times in an interview at the company’s headquarters in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He added: “I think it’s going to be a material drop. I just don’t know how much because *we need to wait for the data*. But all the scientists I’ve talked to . . . are like ‘this is not going to be good’.”

----------


## Bros

> But politicians and bureaucrats are saying boosters at 2 months, or 3 months. 
> Of course that must mean the _existing_ vaccines because they haven't developed the new ones yet.

  Now didn't a poster say that at post 396?

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Now didn't a poster say that at post 396?

  Prescient does sound like science I guess.

----------


## r3nov8or

Compulsory vaccines for all Austrians. More to follow...?  https://www.9news.com.au/world/coron...5-ca5be87576bf

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Now didn't a poster say that at post 396?

   

> 'There is no evidence to suggest that an earlier booster dose of the current COVID-19 vaccines will augment the protection against the Omicron variant'," he said."There is one difference there, in relation to the immunosuppressed population, where that is seen as a third dose, [the booster] can be given at a minimum of two months after the second dose. "But, [with] the general population, the advice from ATAGI remains a six-month gap between the second dose and the booster program. *So, in summary — no change*."

  ATAGI recommends no change to COVID vaccine booster program amid Omicron variant - ABC News

----------


## Bros

Now nearly all the borders have been opened and the various health officials at least here in Queensland are fanning the flames and wanting the infection to spread how are other states monitoring those who caught the virus? With this seeming cavalier approach now who would bother getting tested. 
I keep in contact with a friend in Sydney who 2 weeks ago go the delta virus. I was talking to him daily and he reached a low point in the infection about day 7 and from there he got better. He had to quarantine at home so was unable to see his wife who was in a nursing home who also contracted the virus despite being triple vaccinate and ended up in hospital on oxygen. 
He said when he was diagnosed he was sent an oxygen monitor and had to take three reading a day of oxygen saturation and heart rate and he was contacted to supply the readings daily when they rang up. He said his oxygen never dipped below 95 but he never knew the minimum before having extra oxygen. 
With the numbers exploding I wonder if there are enough portable oxygen monitors and people to do the checking of those quarantine in the home.

----------


## METRIX

> I keep in contact with a friend in Sydney who 2 weeks ago go the delta virus. I was talking to him daily and he reached a low point in the infection about day 7 and from there he got better. He had to quarantine at home so was unable to see his wife who was in a nursing home who also contracted the virus despite being triple vaccinate and ended up in hospital on oxygen. 
> He said when he was diagnosed he was sent an oxygen monitor and had to take three reading a day of oxygen saturation and heart rate and he was contacted to supply the readings daily when they rang up. He said his oxygen never dipped below 95 but he never knew the minimum before having extra oxygen. 
> With the numbers exploding I wonder if there are enough portable oxygen monitors and people to do the checking of those quarantine in the home.

  
I assume it was it just one of the finger clip on monitors ?, if so these are cheap (under $90 retail for a brand name) I would say there are plenty of these given their cheap price (probably $20 for bulk purchases) and availability shouldn't have been a problem as they are a small electronic device. The more serious ventilators used in ICU for really sick patients was around 2000 they were looking to double this to 4000 at one stage.  It appears Omicron (from what they know so far) is more contagious but less harmful, which would indicate corona virus is coming to an end, just like previous pandemics the disease cannot go on forever, the initial strains eventually have less effect as the disease becomes less potent. I believe this has to do with high vaccinations and mask / social distancing / hand cleaning for this one, whereas in the past before effective vaccinations were available, the virus simply ran out of people to infect, because they either all died or had been infected.  The numbers show this may be what's happening now, the Spanish Flu only lasted for two years before it died out, we are pretty much on target for that similar period with Covid 19.     Interesting numbers, when NSW had 33 in ICU, 26 of these were un-vaxxed.  VIC has 15471 active cases, 397 in hospital, 75 in ICU and 39 on ventilators, I'm curious why VIC consistently has the worst figures in Australia, are the higher numbers represented by un-vaxxed ? 
Figures for how many hospital admissions anywhere are vaxxed or un-vaxxed are very difficult to find, I would have thought these would be published front and centre to show the effectiveness of vaccines.
Testing in NSW has become a shambles, every man and his dog is getting tested for no apparent reason, the testing lines are up to 8 hours wait !! 
There were over 164,000 tests in NSW in the last 24 hours, this is crazy as only 5612 cases came from this, as the premier said only get tested if you have symptoms, people are just panicking and getting tested for the sake of it.
This can probably be blamed on the dropping of QR and masks, the QR dropping was a mistake as nobody knows where the people who have tested positive were during their times out. 
The masks was not really a problem, I probably saw 1 in every 100 people not wearing one, interesting Bunnings workers were the ones not wearing them the most.
 I would have thought you would wear one with cases growing and being in a customer focused environment.

----------


## Bros

> I assume it was it just one of the finger clip on monitors ?, if so these are cheap (under $90 retail for a brand name) I would say there are plenty of these given their cheap price (probably $20 for bulk purchases) and availability shouldn't have been a problem as they are a small electronic device.

  Yes you are correct. I was just talking to him 30min ago and he said he has to sent the oxygen monitor back so they must clean them and put new batteries in then send them out again. I ended up buying one for $30 from a ebay seller of medical equipment, I could have got one for a lot cheaper but I went with this one. I'm only 97-98% probably ok for age and intermittent asthma    

> It appears Omicron (from what they know so far) is more contagious but less harmful, which would indicate corona virus is coming to an end, just like previous pandemics the disease cannot go on forever, the initial strains eventually have less effect as the disease becomes less potent. I believe this has to do with high vaccinations and mask / social distancing / hand cleaning for this one, whereas in the past before effective vaccinations were available, the virus simply ran out of people to infect, because they either all died or had been infected  The numbers show this may be what's happening now, the Spanish Flu only lasted for two years before it died out, we are pretty much on target for that similar period with Covid 19..

  Fingers crossed.        

> Testing in NSW has become a shambles, every man and his dog is getting tested for no apparent reason, the testing lines are up to 8 hours wait !! 
> There were over 164,000 tests in NSW in the last 24 hours, this is crazy as only 5612 cases came from this, as the premier said only get tested if you have symptoms, people are just panicking and getting tested for the sake of it.
> This can probably be blamed on the dropping of QR and masks, the QR dropping was a mistake as nobody knows where the people who have tested positive were during their times out.

  I cant see why people would bother waiting even saying those with symptoms to be tested many don't have any symptoms   

> The masks was not really a problem, I probably saw 1 in every 100 people not wearing one, interesting Bunnings workers were the ones not wearing them the most.  I would have thought you would wear one with cases growing and being in a customer focused environment.

  You obviously don't have to wear glasses permanently as they are a nuisance especially in air conditioned shops. 
As I said before I was talking to my mate and they found out where the covid came from he got and it was from a resident who came from another nursing home via a stay in hospital, he was the source but has since died I don't know what from. Seems like he picked it up in hospital.

----------


## METRIX

> I cant see why people would bother waiting even saying those with symptoms to be tested many don't have any symptoms

  Correct, can you tell me over 150,000 developed symptoms overnight so they had to get tested, I would say no, they just went to get a test because ?? well - because !!! 
I had some friends they stood in line for three hours as their son was a close contact of a kid at school who caught covid.
The only reason they did it was they wanted to visit her parents in ACT, in the end I think they decided to stay put this year.   

> You obviously don't have to wear glasses permanently as they are a nuisance especially in air conditioned shops.

   No, but I do know when wearing safety glasses and a mask is a pain, end up removing either of them due to fogging up

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Correct, can you tell me over 150,000 developed symptoms overnight so they had to get tested, I would say no, they just went to get a test because ?? well - because !!! 
> I had some friends they stood in line for three hours as their son was a close contact of a kid at school who caught covid.
> The only reason they did it was they wanted to visit her parents in ACT, in the end I think they decided to stay put this year.

  Aren't close contatcs supposed to get tested and stay in iso?
I know guidelines can vary State to State and across exposure sites.
My niece in Sydney had her kid at day care a close contact and they all went into iso for 7 days with tests(still awaiting results) - had to cancel Xmas gathering.

----------


## phild01

Here, lots of people who use the QR code are notified they may have been a close contact and to only get a test if symptoms make you feel unwell. It's all becoming somewhat moot now and I suspect many people would be unaware if they had the virus.

----------


## r3nov8or

Whoops! "...is one of more than 400 people who were mistakenly told by testing laboratory SydPath that they were negative when in fact they were positive with COVID-19...."  https://www.9news.com.au/national/ns...8-61b4ff03b145 
Edit: 400 plus another 995!

----------


## METRIX

> Whoops! "...is one of more than 400 people who were mistakenly told by testing laboratory SydPath that they were negative when in fact they were positive with COVID-19...."  https://www.9news.com.au/national/ns...8-61b4ff03b145 
> Edit: 400 plus another 995!

  Guaranteed to be mistakes made, NSW  average of 159,000 tests per day since 20th December, at least there are some results coming back, South Australia has a 70 hour wait for results, they are only doing 22,000 tests a day. 
Had a friend who's kid was classified as a close contact of a kid that tested positive after school finished, so they lined up for 3 hours to get tested, Mum thought she would get tested as well.
Son came back negative, Mum came back Positive, she had already done two rapid teste both negative. !! 
Dad and son went out today to get tested again, waited from 8.00 until 12:00 then they closed the testing facility and said go home !!!

----------


## r3nov8or

Mistakes... "You had one job!" 
Why are so many NSW people getting tested? Do 1.5M people really want to go QLD?  :Smilie:

----------


## r3nov8or

Got my booster today. Got Pfizer, after my double dose was AZ. Happy enough to have different "varieties".  (No choice if I want a booster, I guess haha  :Smilie:  ). Injection site is sore to the touch, but nothing else so far... 
Lots of craziness around RAT availability... ongoing hints re deliveries on all manner of social media groups etc, but invariably "They sold out 5 minutes before I got there" etc... 
Novax Novak can get stuffed too.

----------


## sol381

went to visit a mate up the sunshine coast for christmas. His brother from melbourne came up as well. we planned to stay for 5 days. On the third day his brother tested positive. Wife and i left early . Isolated at home. Finally got a test the following day. Her result came back negative after about 9 hours. 5 days later mine came back positive. wtf. Both my mate and his wife are negative as well. Im trying to get  another test or even a RAT test , bloody impossible. Only symptoms  i had was a very slight scratchy throat and maybe a headache which i could put down to not drinking enough water on hot days. which im prone to do. Qld government really dropped the ball up here clearly knowing what was going to happen yet was way under prepared.  
When we got our test done last wednesday at wilston there would have been 20 cars there, In and out in 15 minutes. Went yesterday line of cars over 1km long. Roads are empty up here , most are waiting in line to get tested. 
Im double vaxxed but no booster shot yet.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Got my booster today. Got Pfizer, after my double dose was AZ. Happy enough to have different "varieties".  (*No choice if I want a booster,* I guess haha  ).

  Reading MSM you would be forgiven for thinking that but it isn't true. COVID-19 booster vaccine advice | Australian Government Department of Health  

> *Vaccine types for booster doses*  The Comirnaty (Pfizer) and Spikevax (Moderna) vaccines are approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) and recommended by ATAGI as a COVID-19 booster dose.  You can have the *Pfizer or Moderna vaccine as a booster* dose regardless of which vaccine you had for your first 2 doses. You *can also receive the Vaxzevria (AstraZeneca)* vaccine if you:  cant have the Pfizer vaccine for medical reasonshad 2 doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine previously.  Read ATAGIs advice on the type of vaccine recommended for booster doses.

   

> Injection site is sore to the touch, but nothing else so far... 
> Lots of craziness around RAT availability... ongoing hints re deliveries on all manner of social media groups etc, but invariably "They sold out 5 minutes before I got there" etc... 
> ....

  No observable craziness here in WA yet about RATs
Because
They have been banned (fine of $20k)
Because
Unreliable.
Ban is to be lifted next week.
Apparently stockists have been getting supply in ready for the onslaught.

----------


## Bros

> Her result came back negative after about 9 hours. 5 days later mine came back positive. wtf.

  Cant rush these things.   

> When we got our test done last wednesday at wilston there would have been 20 cars there, In and out in 15 minutes. Went yesterday line of cars over 1km long. Roads are empty up here , most are waiting in line to get tested. 
> Im double vaxxed but no booster shot yet.

  Might be a bit like Bunnings of a weekend. In the morning it is crowded in the afternoon next to nothing. 
A mate of mine went to a mass vac clinic in the morning for booster at 9am and left at 11:30.  
Another mate went to a shopping centre when there was a vac cubicle set up and in the morning there were heaps there went back in the afternoon no one there and he though they had gone home for the day but nope he got his booster there and then so it can depend on the time of day. 
I'm booked for a booster on 21st this month 3 mths since the last so I will see if I will be refused but as I have Asthma at time and my wife has diabetes.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Reading MSM you would be forgiven for thinking that but it isn't true....

  Fair enough. I didn't think they were making AZ anymore, but I didn't care enough to ask  :Smilie:  . As I said, happy to have different varieties... Probably go Novavax next time  :Smilie:

----------


## dmac

> Her result came back negative after about 9 hours. 5 days later mine came back positive. wtf.

  I read the other day that they batch test somehow. So test a hole heap of swabs at once, if that comes back negative then they are all negative so your good to go. If the batch tests positive, then they need to go back and test each individual swab to find who's are negative and who's are positive. 
I bet that's why it it can take so long on occasions. 
This is just speculation though. 
Dave,

----------


## METRIX

> went to visit a mate up the sunshine coast for christmas. His brother from melbourne came up as well. we planned to stay for 5 days. On the third day his brother tested positive. Wife and i left early . Isolated at home. Finally got a test the following day. Her result came back negative after about 9 hours. 5 days later mine came back positive. wtf. Both my mate and his wife are negative as well. Im trying to get  another test or even a RAT test , bloody impossible. Only symptoms  i had was a very slight scratchy throat and maybe a headache which i could put down to not drinking enough water on hot days. which im prone to do. Qld government really dropped the ball up here clearly knowing what was going to happen yet was way under prepared.  
> When we got our test done last wednesday at wilston there would have been 20 cars there, In and out in 15 minutes. Went yesterday line of cars over 1km long. Roads are empty up here , most are waiting in line to get tested. 
> Im double vaxxed but no booster shot yet.

  A friend son was considered a close contact of a school kid went to get tested, he was negative (unvaxxed as too young), she got tested while she was there and was positive, she had no signs of sickness.
She was double vax, few days later felt very lethargic and headache for three days and was in bed for three days, her son and partner both got tested again, they were all in close proximity for days before she knew she was positive and while she was in bed. 
Neither got their results back as they think these just got lost in the system, neither got sick, weird as they were all in the same house / cars etc the whole time before and during the positive result, they say. 
After the three days feeling very tired, she was back to normal.

----------


## METRIX

> I read the other day that they batch test somehow. So test a hole heap of swabs at once, if that comes back negative then they are all negative so your good to go. If the batch tests positive, then they need to go back and test each individual swab to find who's are negative and who's are positive. 
> I bet that's why it it can take so long on occasions. 
> This is just speculation though. 
> Dave,

  This is how they were testing in China originally, they just threw about 100 swabs into one container then tested, so they would of had to take two swabs, they could then distinguish from the group of swabs, otherwise you would have to recall all the people again..

----------


## r3nov8or

On FB I've seen a screen shot of a SMS "result" stating that the sample was no longer viable for testing, and that they should seek another PCR or a RAT, if they are feeling unwell.  
Just taking too long with all the pressure out there, and no doubt the labs are down staff due to isolation etc like lots of other industries

----------


## METRIX

Maybe Novak should jump on the next plane out of Melbourne  :Confused:

----------


## r3nov8or

It's simply because yesterday VIC opened the website to register your RAT result and people have been adding their positive results since RATs became available, *all in one day...*

----------


## plum

Metrix wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of bagging Victoria. Must be a phobia.

----------


## r3nov8or

Yeah, NSW gets its RAT act together next week...   

> Public health orders will also be updated next week to include a requirement that people report their positive rapid antigen test (RAT) results, to link people with COVID-19 to health support and advice

  https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/news/P...220108_00.aspx 
VIC really should have flowed the past days data across those days retrospectively...

----------


## John2b

Good to see that the spread of virus has plateaued just as Moronison promised. Look, it's as flat as a tack!

----------


## John2b

You've got to luv Australia! Under the guidance of our fearless leadership in the space of a few weeks we've jumped from being about 150th to become *#3 worldwide* for new cases per capita *despite Australia being an island and the fact it is summer here!!!*

----------


## METRIX

> It's simply because yesterday VIC opened the website to register your RAT result and people have been adding their positive results since RATs became available, *all in one day...*

  Yep I realise that, NSW website will be up in a few days I believe so will most likely see similar if not worse results, considering we are at 45,000 without RAT numbers. 
The reassuring thing is the numbers in hospital / ICU are only around 0.79% in NSW so that would indicate the vaccines are doing their job.
As of yesterday 234,000 cases detected, only 1738 in hospital, 134 in ICU, 33 on ventilators.

----------


## METRIX

> You've got to luv Australia! Under the guidance of our fearless leadership in the space of a few weeks we've jumped from being about 150th to become *#3 worldwide* for new cases per capita *despite Australia being an island and the fact it is summer here!!!*

  It was going to happen, how can you stop it close up shop ? that's the only way, no other country has come unscathed with Omicron, hopefully this is the last version we see and not another version of Delta.

----------


## Bros

> Maybe Novak should jump on the next plane out of Melbourne

  I see on the media that his lawyer said he contracted Covid in mid Dec 2020. With the Omicrom virus and the various health official fanning the flames so we can all get it seems from those statements this is just another part of the vaccination process. 
A mate of mine in Sydney contracted the virus late Nov and when he was negative he rang up the doctor to get an appointment for the booster he was told because he had covid he would have to wait for three mths before getting the booster. 
Seems like there must be a definite immunity after you catch the virus for some time. 
So maybe his application on health grounds could be valid.

----------


## r3nov8or

The different there, Bros, is that your friend IS vaccinated AND got COVID-19.  
Novak IS NOT vaccinated at all. I believe that at least one dose plus getting COVID-19 (e.g. that's the reason you didn't yet get a second dose) is required by Border Force rules 
The female tennis player who chose to get on a plane home today/ASAP is the smart one. 
An aside, the current guidance I read recently is that once you are eligible for a booster, and have had COVID-19, you can elect to get a booster "as soon as you are feeling better" or within six months. Of course GPs are likely to be conservative on this

----------


## John2b

> It was going to happen, how can you stop it close up shop ? that's the only way, no other country has come unscathed with Omicron, hopefully this is the last version we see and not another version of Delta.

   Don't need to close shop, just stop intentionally pushing the virus around! It's pretty unlikely that covid is going away anytime soon and our guvmint is conducting a giant virus incubation experiment and there will be mutations, and no reason to think that mutations will be benign like omricon.

----------


## johnc

I don't think anyone on these "sport" Visa's should be allowed into the country unvaccinated, no exceptions. The curious case of Novak is that initially Scotty blamed Victoria for approving the Visa then next day claimed to have fixed the problem as Border Force had cancelled it. Visa's are a Commonwealth responsibility, regardless of representations from Tennis Australia or any Victorian health officials who submitted information to the Federal department (Border Force) who then assess and decide if it should be approved. By all accounts Novak has official communication from the Commonwealth and I do have some sympathy for his current situation. Border Force stuffed up from what I can see, it is a department that has had high turnover since its creation from Quarantine, Immigration etc. Not surprising they are years behind on some visa applications, have  a lousy approach and are possibly the worst Government department I have had dealings with. 
I think Scotty has just added Serbia to the list of countries that no longer trust us. He couldn't lie straight in bed, surely the LNP have someone better in the background. We need honesty and leadership and are getting neither. As for Novak it would be best if he returned home of his own accord.

----------


## r3nov8or

Novak's biggest problem is that if he leaves due the current invalid Visa, he cannot return for 3 years. Rules are rules, and this has already been confirmed for the female player.

----------


## phild01

I didn't think the exclusion is automatically 3 years, rather maybe a subject to!

----------


## r3nov8or

> I didn't think the exclusion is automatically 3 years, rather maybe a subject to!

  https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/what...e/re-entry-ban 
There are means for temporary visa in further links... 
We'll see what happens I guess...

----------


## Bros

> Novak's biggest problem is that if he leaves due the current invalid Visa,

   I think there will be a few sackings when he leave here as there is no way someone like him applies for Visa’s he would have his hangers on doing all of that, I believe he has employed his own cook while he is in Australia.

----------


## METRIX

> Don't need to close shop, just stop intentionally pushing the virus around! It's pretty unlikely that covid is going away anytime soon and our guvmint is conducting a giant virus incubation experiment and there will be mutations, and no reason to think that mutations will be benign like omricon.

  I don't think anyone is intentionally pushing the virus around. 
It's due to bad timing of multiple causes. 
Opening state borders, international visitors importing Omicron just before end of year holidays (it only took one person to bring it in just like the two previous versions).
Combine this with Christmas holidays, after two years of restrictions people just wanted to go away and not be confined to their house, or neighbourhood etc. 
With Omicron being supposedly more contagious and high vaccine rates, most people didn't even know they had contracted it, until it was too late. 
You can blame the gov't be it Federal or State as much as you want, it's a virus it doesn't give a crap about a gov't.
As said earlier the situation we are in is not unique to Australia, it basically every country in the world.  
Even NZ who has been super strict on their borders, quarantine etc are still grappling with outbreaks they have Red zones around Auckland as well as vaccine travel restrictions in place and it still keeps infecting people.
The only way you are going to get rid of this thing, is infect every one of the 7.9 Billion people in the world at once, let the strong ones survive and the weak ones die, obviously that's not going to happen, so it will be with us and every other country for some time.

----------


## METRIX

> I think there will be a few sackings when he leave here as there is no way someone like him applies for Visas he would have his hangers on doing all of that, I believe he has employed his own cook while he is in Australia.

  Yes, he would definitely have his own Chef, he owns a chain of high end Vegan restaurants around Europe, I don't think he would be UBER Eating McDonalds  :Biggrin:  
It would be a bad look, if he caught Corona while here in that hotel they put him in, then end up in ICU, could you imagine the outfall from that, especially his father !!

----------


## METRIX

> Novax Novak can get stuffed too.

  Here's a posting from Novax's Daddy on Social Media  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

----------


## r3nov8or

> Here's a posting from Novax's Daddy on Social Media

  Wow. He should already be UN President! Just too busy playing tennis!  :Smilie:

----------


## sol381

What????...Maybe the rich world wont allow him to continue playing tennis. The bloke is worth over $200 million. what an idiot. No mention of the actual reason he was detained. Of course not. Take no responsibility. The world hates me for no reason. This will just make people hate him even more.  
He talks about fair play.. What, playing to his rules. How about playing to the rules of the country you are visiting and doing the right thing. Good Lord.

----------


## r3nov8or

Returning serve  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100751174
NSW records 53,000 COVID infections from rapid antigen tests in less than eight hours 
Jeepers!

----------


## phild01

A shame NSW has ICAC inquisitions tossing out Premiers, numbers would be far less Australia wide without it.

----------


## Bros

> NSW records 53,000 COVID infections from rapid antigen tests in less than eight hours 
> Jeepers!

  Its all part of the plan.

----------


## METRIX

> Returning serve    https://amp.abc.net.au/article/100751174
> NSW records 53,000 COVID infections from rapid antigen tests in less than eight hours 
> Jeepers!

  I don't understand the $1000 fine for not reporting a positive, who the hell has a RAT test, they don't exist anywhere.
I know NSW gov't had ordered 100 Million test, but the first of these go to essential public workers and vulnerable (which they should) but don't see them being given to anyone else.
I assume the fine is only applicable if you are issued tests by NSW Health ? 
I was exposed to a positive work colleague on Monday, had a PCR on Tuesday, result came back Negative, but was told it takes a few days after exposure to show positive results.
So will need to get another test later in the week. 
The exposer said he only has a sore throat other than that feels ok.

----------


## METRIX

And then you have these idiots, deliberately trying to get it, and spread it around to "speed" things up.  https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/healt...ovid-c-5217727

----------


## r3nov8or

Also seen recent reports of COVID parties... Not sure if they were in Aus, but wouldn't be surprised if it's happening

----------


## Bros

> And then you have these idiots, deliberately trying to get it, and spread it around to "speed" things up.  https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/healt...ovid-c-5217727

   When I first saw this I thought we are getting mixed messages on a daily basis and most of them are pushing the strategy that we will all get it. With those messages it is no wonder that this happens. From what I see NSW is just letting it go and not trying to contain it is any way. 
 Queensland is making an attempt but when I was reading about the lack of effectiveness of the masks being used seems futile. 
Some of the older posters would remember the way contagious childhood diseases were manage which would be if one of the kids caught measles, mumps or chicken pox all the kids of the family would be herded together so they all got it and got over it quick. This is no different. 
We were all prepared for this plenty of vaccines and plenty of RAT tests and ability to have a conveyor belt of PCR testing.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> ...
> We were all prepared for this plenty of vaccines and plenty of RAT tests and ability to have a conveyor belt of PCR testing.

  yes, well the announcements all went according to plan.
Implementation, meh.

----------


## Bros

Seems all quiet on the Covid front except the possibility of compulsory mask wearing in Queensland being talked about due to the high numbers of Covid in the community. They are telling us you will get Covid, no might will. 
Just listening to something on the ABC today but I cant find it as the statement 4th injection is not being made universally available as it can make the Immune system "lazy" anyone else here that statement? 
I have a couple of friends who have had 4 injections and the Covid they got weren't what you could consider mild as it laid them up for a couple of days.

----------


## phild01

Had my fourth over a week ago. First two being the AZ, last two Moderna. No reaction issues to report. Still wear a mask everywhere, all my younger neighbours have caught covid. People are complacent and don't seem to understand the higher number of deaths now or just don't care. Long covid is something all these people might consider to their health in later years too.

----------


## r3nov8or

Triple dosed, and got mild COVID end of June, out of iso today (VIC rules, no longer know what other states are doing)  
So I've had the best 4th dose available apparently. Minor aches and pains, mild headaches, sinus congestion.  
12 weeks free now. Happy days

----------


## PhilT2

New strains of the virus are more transmissible and better at overcoming natural immunity from previous infection or vaccine induced immunity. So there has been an increase in people catching covid for the second time. There is some preliminary evidence that each successive infection is worse than the previous one. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2206576 https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1749502/v1

----------


## ForeverYoung

> New strains of the virus are *more transmissible and better* at overcoming natural immunity *from previous infection or vaccine induced immunity*. So there has been an increase in people catching covid for the second time...

  That's my understanding from other readings also.
 BA4/BA5 - not sure how much a 4th dose of any of the vaccines developed for earlier variants will help. Tho Delta is still out there, so would help with that.

----------


## r3nov8or

> BA4/BA5 - not sure how much a 4th dose of any of the vaccines developed for earlier variants will help.

   Moderna has a 4th booster for this I think, and is requesting approval

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Moderna has a 4th booster for this I think, and is requesting approval

  Think I read while back that the one they tweaked for the new variants wasn't any more effective (will see if I can find a link).
In the meantime ...   

> The relatively small increase in efficacy between the third and fourth doses is probably because protection offered by three doses is already quite high, says Davenport. Both vaccines offered slightly more protection against symptomatic disease than against infection.

  Fourth dose of COVID vaccine offers only slight boost against Omicron infection (nature.com)

----------


## phild01

> Fourth dose of COVID vaccine offers only slight boost against Omicron infection (nature.com)

  Why I wear a mask, it is so contagious.

----------


## Bros

> Triple dosed, and got mild COVID end of June, out of iso today (VIC rules, no longer know what other states are doing)  
> So I've had the best 4th dose available apparently. Minor aches and pains, mild headaches, sinus congestion.  
> 12 weeks free now. Happy days

  I believe that doesn't do anything as far as immunity is concerned.

----------


## Bros

> Why I wear a mask, it is so contagious.

  I don't worry to much about it but in the supermarket I wear one as I am going away and don't want it to spoil my holiday.​If I am home I take my chances.

----------


## phild01

> ​If I am home I take my chances.

  Just what many of the people I know did. It was the home they typically caught the virus, wearing masks when out and about.

----------


## r3nov8or

> I believe that doesn't do anything as far as immunity is concerned.

  Can't hurt

----------


## Marc

Everything you hear or read about immunity or immunisation is political, bureaucratic, dogmatic, patronising and commercially skewed, lacking any substance or real scientific basis. Unfortunately those we pay to look after public health are guessing and making bold statements to pretend knowledge they don't have, in order to justify their pay.  
Yes, wear a mask made in OZ, any mask is better than none, but they are not all the same.  https://halyardhealth.com.au/article...-and-n95-mask/ 
Hands hygiene and awareness of fuel pump, trolleys and public places door handles is still important. 
Vaccines are important, however how to find honest information about efficacy and required frequency is no different than trying to decide which brand of car to buy or suburb to live in.
And you doctor knows as much as you do ... or perhaps even less.  
Meantime the investigation of Obama's gain of function research, outsourced to China and then released to the world, has been dutifully swept under the carpet.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Moderna has a 4th booster for this I think, and is requesting approval

  FDA recommends including omicron subvariants BA.4 and BA.5 in fall Covid boosters (nbcnews.com) (h/t Pharma)   

> Both Pfizer and Moderna have developed shots that target both the original coronavirus strain and BA.1. Those vaccines upped the immune response to that strain, but appeared to provide less protection against BA.4 and BA.5.  Pfizer told NBC News in a statement that it could have an updated vaccine that targets BA.4 and BA.5 ready to be distributed *by the first week of October*. Moderna did not immediately respond to a request for comment, though the company has previously said it is prepared to update its vaccine *as needed.*

----------


## r3nov8or

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101170614 
Talks about Modena re BA4 and BA5, and "People who had a prior COVID infection saw a massive jump in BA.4- and BA.5-neutralising antibodies: more than 2,700 units."

----------


## Bros

> https://amp.abc.net.au/article/101170614 
> Talks about Modena re BA4 and BA5, and "People who had a prior COVID infection saw a massive jump in BA.4- and BA.5-neutralising antibodies: more than 2,700 units."

  Well who do you believe?   

> These data show that the BA.2.12.1, BA.4, and BA.5 subvariants substantially escape neutralizing antibodies induced by both vaccination and infection. Moreover, neutralizing antibody titers against the BA.4 or BA.5 subvariant and (to a lesser extent) against the BA.2.12.1 subvariant were lower than titers against the BA.1 and BA.2 subvariants, which suggests that the SARS-CoV-2 omicron variant has continued to evolve with increasing neutralization escape.

  https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2206576

----------


## r3nov8or

> Well who do you believe?

  *shrugs* 
Usually the optimist  :Smilie:

----------


## PhilT2

> Well who do you believe?

  Aren't they two different things? The ABC article is about an experimental Moderna vaccine not released yet and the NEJM article is testing the effectiveness of existing vaccines (Pfizer and Bio-tech) against the new strains of the virus. Both can be right... or wrong.

----------


## Bros

> Aren't they two different things? The ABC article is about an experimental Moderna vaccine not released yet and the NEJM article is testing the effectiveness of existing vaccines (Pfizer and Bio-tech) against the new strains of the virus. Both can be right... or wrong.

   Yep you are right, not available in Australia yet. More boosters when does it stop.

----------


## John2b

> More boosters when does it stop.

  To state the bleeding obvious it will stop when the virus carriers (aka people) stop flying around all over the planet, not before.

----------


## r3nov8or

> To state the bleeding obvious it will stop when the virus carriers (aka people) stop flying around all over the planet, not before.

  Yeah, so it's been a while... Leaving this here.. 
"All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone," wrote the French philosopher Blaise Pascal. (c.1600)

----------


## PhilT2

> To state the bleeding obvious it will stop when the virus carriers (aka people) stop flying around all over the planet, not before.

  I doubt air travel will stop; they're mostly younger people but the cruiseline industry is in real trouble because their main clients are older. https://www.theguardian.com/business...to-be-scrapped 
I'm hoping that the covid shot can be added into the flu shot that some of us oldies get every year. But it's not going away anytime soon.

----------


## Marc

> "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone," wrote the French philosopher Blaise Pascal. (c.1600)

  The sarcasm in Pascal's quote is lost on most government's so called "leaders" who would be extremely happy with a population who only eats and defecate.
See below a message from my sister in law from the USA.  We got a stolen election which put a criminal and a weakling in our Whitehouse, for Trump daring to stand up to and change our long standing unfair trade agreements with China.And for calling Covid what it is, the China Virus. 
China and the deep state and the one world order ilk were so desperate to get rid of their biggest threat, Trump, they unleashed a world wide crisis ie Covid, to cause chaos and fear in an effort to get rid of a guy who was accomplishing so much, in America and on the world stage, contrary to their vision. 
The crisis was well marketed above and beyond its actual danger but the fear mongering worked and they could see within their grasp, the reset they’ve been grooming for decades. 
God help us! We are subject to evil in the hands of the godless and the lawless who are lining their personal pockets by selling off our hard won freedoms and this beautiful and great country.

----------


## bootes

> The sarcasm in Pascal's quote is lost on most....  We got a stolen election which put a criminal and a weakling in our Whitehouse, for Trump daring to stand up to and change our long standing unfair trade agreements with China.And for calling Covid what it is, the China Virus. 
> China and the deep state and the one world order ilk were so desperate to get rid of their biggest threat, Trump, they unleashed a world wide crisis ie Covid, to cause chaos and fear in an effort to get rid of a guy who was accomplishing so much.

  Crikey, hopefully that was just more sarcasm to be lost.

----------


## John2b

> ... the cruiseline industry is in real trouble because their main clients are older. https://www.theguardian.com/business...to-be-scrapped

  To stop building new cruise ships is not the same as stopping cruises. 
This summer our island's tiny port with a population ~350 is scheduled to have 28 cruise ship dockings with up to 6000 on board. Most take bus tours of the island at a couple of hundred bucks per seat, quite a ripoff for a lightning tour that spends 80-90% of the time dirt roading between stops on the bus! Some wander from the terminal up to the village main street, look bemused standing in front of the supermarket, the only store, and ask where the town is! One of my mates is a lighthouse guide 25km from the port and has had 600 people turn up on buses within 15 minutes - the facility has just one coffee machine and two toilets! 
According to the guvmint, it's all for our good and prosperity and 'recovery' after the 2020 fires. Passengers cannot take food or liquor onto the ships, because that's eating into_ their_ profit, and visitors don't buy produce from our farmers markets, wineries, breweries and distilleries. 
The "benefit" we get is expropriated medical services, hijacked rubbish bins, volunteer fatigue, debilitated community services, deeper potholes, overburdened public facilities, roadside litter and an exhausted hospitality workforce, just to name some. And, of course, exposure to viruses and other diseases that affect not only humans, but our primary production industries as well. 
Meanwhile the cruise operators' exorbitant profits sail off into the sunset, whilst the cost burden of providing our island home as a venue for the jollification of seafarers is subsidised by our rates and your taxes.

----------


## r3nov8or

> ... Most take bus tours of the island at a couple of hundred bucks per seat...

  Maybe they are electric buses  :Smilie:    

> ... Passengers cannot take food or liquor onto the ships, because that's eating into_ their_ profit, ...

  Not sure about "cannot", but the passengers wouldn't bother anyway, because usually all food is included and most opt for the drinks package, if that's their thing

----------


## John2b

> Not sure about "cannot", but the passengers wouldn't bother anyway, because usually all food is included and most opt for the drinks package, if that's their thing

  Cruise visitors often do tell businesses they _would_ bother if they could, but they can't! Passengers cannot bring any alcohol from Kangaroo Island's international award winning distilleries or wineries to take home, which cuts that industry out of any impulsive purchase benefit from cruise ships. 
Likewise, despite the cruise companies coercing and blackmailing the tourism and business bodies to insist the local farmers markets are open when there is a ship in port, passengers cannot take any food product onto the ship. Those passengers who do go to the markets are incredibly apologetic that although they want to buy something they cannot.

----------


## Bros

> Likewise, despite the cruise companies coercing and blackmailing the tourism and business bodies to insist the local farmers markets are open when there is a ship in port,

   More fool them, if they can't sell anything why bother.

----------


## phild01

My neighbour gave me honey from KI when they last went there. I can't imagine cruise ship passengers are strip searched for cruise ship contraband.

----------


## r3nov8or

> ... I can't imagine cruise ship passengers are strip searched for cruise ship contraband.

  This was my thought too.  
Anyway back to the Virus

----------


## John2b

> I can't imagine cruise ship passengers are strip searched for cruise ship contraband.

   Not strip searched, bags and coat pockets are checked, like going to the footy or a concert, when boarding the boat.

----------


## John2b

> if they can't sell anything why bother.

  100% correct Bros. Fortunately Covid saved the community markets by stopping the cruises. Cruises had completely buggered the markets because the local stallholders burned out and quit, and instead showies came over from the mainland to fill the market stalls and sell Chinese made trinkets to cruise passengers.

----------

