# Forum Home Renovation Brickwork  squaring off brick archways

## mickem

Hi,
Hopefully the attachment works. I am looking at buying this property and would want to (well, paying someone to) square off the archway of this garage entry, and maybe also the front patio entrys. Would this be a hard thing to do, or more so, be an expensive job to pay someone to do? What sort of price range may I be looking at? Im just trying to way up the money I would have to spend to make the property into my liking, and if it is worth it.
Regards,
Mickem

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## RedRaven

If its a big cosmetic problem for you, it'd probably be wise to  have a builder come round and ask his advice, before you buy. 
Built in '72, my house is similar, with arched garage entry too.   
As far as I can see (in my house), the arches are themselves structural, ie there is no supporting steel set into the brick above the arch to support the weight of the upper courses.  The arch does the work itself. 
So at a guess you'd need to add the steel and then knock out the bricks beneath - which needs council and engineer approval and a builder to put in.

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## seriph1

there are so many other options than removing what looks like a very nicely made arch, but I won't bore you with my opinions on design and aesthetics. I imagine you're trying to stop the house looking like a poor rendition of the "hacienda" style........is there a steel lintel supporting the arch? You know the ones..... steel strap that is visible after the bricks have been laid on top. 
Anyway, because the arch is built so high, I reckon it would be a piece of cake to remove it and rebuild that section..... just have to be sure to match the mortar..... probably easiest to diamond saw straight up both sides to the roof, then infill with an RSJ lintel and cover it all with reclaimed bricks. if you're planning to render it all, then matching the mortar colour is unimportant..... if not, then it is VERY important as it would stick out like the proverbials along that line   -  just my opinion. Beautiful clinkers by the way.

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## MrFixIt

Hi  

> is there a steel lintel supporting the arch? You know the ones..... steel strap that is visible after the bricks have been laid on top.

  There shouldn't be, arches are SELF SUPPORTING.   

> Anyway, because the arch is built so high, I reckon it would be a piece of cake to remove it and rebuild that section

  Not really, because the arch is supporting ANY other weight above it INCLUDING the roof structure.   

> just have to be sure to match the mortar

  Definitely  :Smilie:    

> probably easiest to diamond saw straight up both sides to the roof, then infill with an RSJ lintel and cover it all with reclaimed bricks.

  Hmmm, IMHO you would be better off chasing in a correct sized ("L" shaped) lintel. You may need something like 300mm x 75mm - check with someone experienced in this like a local builder. 
You will need to support the roof structure while you insert the lintel. Doing it this way (and doing it properly) you will NOT need to remove the two (three?) courses of bricks above the arch and you will therefore help minimise the work involved AND help the overall appearance, ie it will look less of a change. 
If you do this, you _could_ then diamond saw up the the lintel to remove the bricks - BUT I wouldn't, I'd knock out the bricks manually. I would be an easy job to do after the lintel is installed. 
When you have removed the arch and the lintel is visible, you will most like need to put some "packing" in some places, between the bricks and the lintel. This is because the bricks were not (of course) laid on to the lintel. Without packing the brickwork you may ultimately have small cracks appear in the brickwork above the lintel. You can use metal strapping for the packing as you can fold it over on itself to create thicker or thin strips. Push the packing in past the edge of the lintel and then seal the remaining "gap" with some sealant and then paint. Voila a good job with a great finish (providing you have a **GOOD** bricklayer) 
Unless you are rendering the brickwork, you will still need to knock out a brick on every alternate course, to install a half brick in its place. 
You will still need to match the mortar but using this method you will minimise the amount of "patching" you need to do. 
You may need to remove some carport ceiling lining to gain access to the rear of the brick work. 
You could take the same approach with the entry archways, but the job is a little more difficult because of the piers (not a big deal) just not quite so easy. 
Personally I think the cost to do the entry archways is more than it's worth. I think the entry archways look very good. Whereas the carport archway is quite wide and therefore quite dominating within the frontal appearance. 
A **GOOD** bricklayer should be able to do this job for you quite easily, including installing the lintel AND be able to match the mortar. 
(at a wild guess I'd say $1500 plus the cost of the lintel) 
You may need to redo the rolladoor mounting brackets.  
HTH 
.

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## seriph1

I agree with everything..... including the word "shouldn't" with respect to the arch .... of course it will be self-supporting  -  regardless of that, throughout the 60's-90's I saw hundreds of brick arches that had steel 'reinforcing' used as a former and left there after the mortar had cured. This job though, with its lovely border of 'soldiers' makes me think it may have been done correctly. Also looks like 'solid brick' construction, based on those bricks.

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## seriph1

.....still and all - it's a very nicely presented arch and there are numerous other solutions to changing the look  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## mickem

Thankyou for all the advice given. Sounds like a bit of a pain in the you know what to worry about it. Might get a feel for it after a while I suppose if I buy.  :2thumbsup:

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## autogenous

Its hard to see with the angle of the photo but at a guess I would say you have 9 inch brickwork there. There maybe 6 mm rods above the arch due to the low amount of brickwork above the arch. 
Pending the brickwork is 230mm wide a 200mm wide T-bar which looks like possibly a 2700mm opening. If the opening is 2700 you will need the T-bar 3150mm long 
These types of jobs are very hard to get the face brick looking good again especially tracking down the replacement face bricks. You probably are better off rendering that section of the house. 
My guess is about $3500 to sought the garage but you will have to render that section.

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## MrFixIt

Hi  

> Its hard to see with the angle of the photo but at a guess I would say you have 9 inch brickwork there.

  Very unlikely, especially with a roller door, the builders are not too likely to "waste" bricks on a double brick wall for a carport/garage. Looking at the photo it looks like a single brick wall.   

> There maybe 6 mm rods above the arch due to the low amount of brickwork above the arch.

  My guess is that is also unlikely, unless the builder was a "stickler" for strength. There seems to be only two courses and it would not really be worth while for 6mm rods, there could be some reinforcing mesh though.    

> These types of jobs are very hard to get the face brick looking good again

  A **GOOD** bricklayer can do it with ease. Though **GOOD** bricklayers ARE hard to find  :Smilie:    

> especially tracking down the replacement face bricks.

  Why would there be any need to "track down" replacement face bricks? There will be bricks left over!   

> You probably are better off rendering that section of the house.

  I disagree, why spoil the appearance with a partial render?   

> My guess is about $3500 to sought the garage but you will have to render that section.

  I think it is a relatively simple job  :2thumbsup:  and shouldn't cost THAT much  :Smilie:

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## Brickie

> Its hard to see with the angle of the photo but at a guess I would say you have 9 inch brickwork there.

  Most arches are 9" brickwork, unless they are a veneer, then the are 4"   

> There maybe 6 mm rods above the arch due to the low amount of brickwork above the arch.

  6mm rod? never heard of it in brickwork   

> These types of jobs are very hard to get the face brick looking good again .

   :What he said:    

> My guess is about $3500

  Plus++++++$$$$$$$$

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## davo_scuba

guys i did this a while ago and posted a few pic's on how it all came out 
I have added the pics again but the information you might find in the old thread one things for sure, check you can still get the bricks or work out how many you are going to need to get the finished job you want. 
best of luck it's not that hard  :2thumbsup: 
Think that i did it for under 400 bucks. which was 200 for the bricky, 80 for the lintel and some other things i bought which were a 9" diamond cutting disc, pair if gloves etc.
btw if someone wants to pay 3500 for a few archies i'll do it. (easy money :Wink: ).

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## autogenous

The T-bar alone will be about $600 - $700 maybe more especially if its near the ocean and needs to Galv. 
You obviously gave him a hand with the work. Thats 2 people. 
Where he comes from 95% of garages are 230 mm at the entrance. 
Plenty of times there is rods and sometimes rods and stirrups over the arch because an arch requires brick weight to bring the arch into compression. It gives the arch strength.
The rods are also there because many people have a habit hitting them. 
And no doing a front door is not doing a garage opening with a large T-bar to be hoisted into place. 
An no, removing a an arch to a front door is a lot different to building in a door frame.
Hell probably want a bin which will be $400 
For starters a garage entry is 9 inch  face on the reveal. 
How much for the scaffold?
How much for the Acrow props?
How much for the Quik cut to chop the bricks out?
How much for the bricks that are no longer made?
How much for the delivery of sand?
The list is will be bigger than that. 
And you chopped/toothed the bricks out? 
What is hilarious is you toothed all those bricks when you could have straight cut both sides and post fixed the door in the manner you did with the boards up the reveal. 
2 hours quote consult visit. 2 hours quantities estimation, pricing, quote 
It costs me $230(inc super/workercomp) for a labourer in Perth alone at the moment so feel free, knock yourself out. 
No wonder people cant get certain trades to do private jobs.

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## zacnelson

I personally think he did an awesome job of replacing that arch.  And toothing the bricks is definitely the best way to go, even though it's a little more work.  Whenever I see a place where they've just cut a line it never looks as good. 
And that new door just looks amazing!  Pretty much added a new room to the house now as well...

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## autogenous

Yeah the bricklayer did a decent job.  
The bricks and mortar being the similar in colour is a plus. 
The issue with toothing is that sometimes the cement is so much stronger than the bricks that all the bricks crack as they are taken out. Some people end up around the other side of the house as the bricks crack and fall away/ 
While toothing is the only alternative in some cases it doesn't have the same  strength as it used to. Toothing is also very, very labour intensive. It is basically masonary surgery. 
He didnt mention how long it took him to tooth the arch out either. Looks like hes havin fun there with his mask off. 
Some mortar is hard as pig iron, not good. Other mortar is s soft you can scrape it out, especially "very" high clay sand mortars.  
The other issue is that brick batches are never the same size in colour and size. If you tooth many a time you end up with the patched quilt look. In that particular case they were straight chocolate bricks.  
If you can cut then you get no patched look. You have a stronger job. In his case he could have put a larger head on the door and not even have the bricklayer turn up. 
The door is beautiful, but personally, I think the arch looked better in that case or at least some of the recess. Out in the weather that "timber" door will need a lot of maintenance. 
Im sure hell pizazz it up.

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## zacnelson

Yes, you've made a lot of excellent points there Autogenous. Particularly about the patchwork quilt effect when mortar or bricks don't match 100%. Also, it never occurred to me that a larger head / door jamb would amply conceal the cut.  
I must say, from personal experience I have found laying bricks into toothing to be incredibly time-consuming and difficult. Particularly trying to make them look as if they weren't toothed. There's probably a special trick to it that I haven't mastered. Anyway my end results have looked great, but not without making a hell of a mess all over the brickwork and doing a lot of cleaning up!

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## patty

Davo scube nice job we have 2 arch ways over our verandah and have always thought about squaring them using a lintel you have given me some good ideas on how to approach it cheers!!

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## davo_scuba

Well i'm glad some off you liked it, as for "Looks like hes having fun there with his mask off" I must be looking at diffrent pictures !!. I think at keying in the bricks is the proper way for this to be done if you cut it's always going to look like that (eg crap and cheap)."Hell probably want a bin which will be $400" (for what 400 bucks for a 12 m2)last time i got a skip it was a few hundred (but we might be in diffrent parts of the country) - he might find a use for the removed bricks in the garden (bbq, letterbox or something).Even moving a i beam around would not be too much effort with the right help so don't think all the costs are necessary, "How much for the scaffold?" (what for just make up a few tressals)"How much for the Acrow props?" (what for rhs post with a trolly jack)"How much for the Quik cut to chop the bricks out?" "How much for the bricks that are no longer made?" ( that's why you need to count how many you might need before starting and then take them out with care)"How much for the delivery of sand?" (let the bricky sort that out and pay him for that side of things but a few bags of cement and sand etc 60 bucks pick it up in the car on the way home from work easy !)"The list is will be bigger than that". (that might be so but I must be looking at it from a money saving point of view rather than find every opportunity to charge for a bit more then add a bit of cream).I'm sorry that Autogenous thinks it's a crap job (maybe if you lived next door you could be one of those helpful neighbours and offer some good advice or even better help out for a few beers and snag or two. and btw the door might need a bit of maintenance but once the front porch is on with a tile (hip style roof ) it should be ok still sorcing cheep material for this one and it's been a few years but will get it done one day. just trying to work out how to get the plans draw up and what's going to be needed to pass through council.Everyone have a go it's no way hard and only take a few days. (and yes the brickie did a great job and had it done in 3 hours and only wanted $150 but i gave him 200 for a good job inc materials. (the pier would have looked a bit out of proportion(to small being just one brick wide) on the rh/s thats why we made it bigger.

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