# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Down light positioning

## yols84

Hi guys,  
Im having problems with where I am going to put the down light for my living rooms. I was wanting to use 12V LEDS but I wasn't too sure how many I would need to light the room. 2.4m ceilings  [/URL]

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## Uncle Bob

It's hard to say without knowing the lamp type and fitting. Maybe go overkill and use dimming.

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## Overkill

You would definitely need to know the beam spread to work out the distance between lights. I would ask the shop where you buy them for advice or just buy a few and rig them up on battens to test out the spacing. I did that in my kitchen and moved the lights about until everything was just right. Alternatively, if you ceiling is already up & painted, you can place the lights facing up on the floor and see the light coverage on the ceiling.

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## phild01

Like halogen there are many LED downlights that disappoint.  Generally they have poor light output and narrow spread despite what some of their specs say. Maybe plan for a future time when technology improves the cost/performance factors.  I think there will be many people who will replace their current LED lighting for better, later on.
Having said that, I find a downlight from Sunny SAL is a very good performer in output and spread. The ones I got are dimmable S9063DP.  They are 13W and I find 2 of these will light a double room with bright even light that other LED's couldn't do with 4.  Another thing also is that LED dimmers are starting to improve in their technology being able to now go well below half brightness. 
Better performing lights will reduce the number in your eventual layout.

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## Overkill

That's a good tip! Have you tried any of the Sunny 240V bulbs? The LG8/855E27 could be just what I need for a pendant in a stairwell - I never want to have to replace the bulb  :Smilie: . 
That downlight you mentioned is pretty expensive; it would want to do twice the work to justify the cost!

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## phild01

> That's a good tip! Have you tried any of the Sunny 240V bulbs? The LG8/855E27 could be just what I need for a pendant in a stairwell - I never want to have to replace the bulb . 
> That downlight you mentioned is pretty expensive; it would want to do twice the work to justify the cost!

  It is an expensive unit but depends where you go.  I have seen prices as high as $90, I ended up paying less.

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## Brian7886

for that lounge room, Atom dimmable LED. 4 of. 13w. bright as anything in cool white. get the dimmer and adjust to suit.  
many ways to do it

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## Overkill

> It is an expensive unit but depends where you go.  I have seen prices as high as $90, I ended up paying $44.

  Yikes! the first local shop I found with Google wanted $113 - I will search a bit further.

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## phild01

> Yikes! the first local shop I found with Google wanted $113 - I will search a bit further.

  If interested I can steer you to an electrical outlet in Hornsby.

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## Overkill

Definitely interested, for under $50 these lights look pretty useful.

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## phild01

> Definitely interested, for under $50 these lights look pretty useful.

  Check PM

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## GraemeCook

Local Woolies has 240 volt Philips LED's at around $15.   Never used them but doubt other brands be up to 10 times better?? 
Also, why consider 12 volt.  Transformer is just one more expense - cost + installation - and one more thing to go wrong.... 
But if you are after efficient lighting why consider down lights??  Down lights and efficiency are mutually exclusive.        
Fair Winds 
Graeme

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## davegol

downlights are awful (IMHO). they're used by builders because they're cheap.
go with up lights (wall), pendants, floor lamps .. ANYTHING by downlights. 
unless you have a painting or sculpture you want to highlight. 
better yet, get a professional lighting designer. no way you'll regret it.

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## JB1

> downlights are awful (IMHO). they're used by builders because they're cheap.
> go with up lights (wall), pendants, floor lamps .. ANYTHING by downlights. 
> unless you have a painting or sculpture you want to highlight. 
> better yet, get a professional lighting designer. no way you'll regret it.

  I beg to differ. 
Good downlights provide good clean lighting for the right room. 
Pendants and wall lamps are also good suitable. 
It's horses for courses, but I like them. 
I ended up using Wattsavers DL1400s LEDs in my house, in conjunction with pendants.   
Having said that cheap LED downlights are no where as bright as 12v halogen.    
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## JB1

> Local Woolies has 240 volt Philips LED's at around $15.   Never used them but doubt other brands be up to 10 times better?? 
> Also, why consider 12 volt.  Transformer is just one more expense - cost + installation - and one more thing to go wrong.... 
> But if you are after efficient lighting why consider down lights??  Down lights and efficiency are mutually exclusive.        
> Fair Winds 
> Graeme

  Frankly 240v LEDs are rubbish. 
They don't last as long as they can't disburse the heat. 
Here is what I used, the heat sink is about 90mm high 
[IMG] http://wattsaver.com.au/wp-content/u...d_slider_3.jpg 
[/IMG] 
10 year warranty 
At 15watts including the driver with a 1400 lumen output, I think they are highly efficient even compared to CFLs.    
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## Overkill

240V replacement LED bulbs still have aways to go. Apart from the the heatsinking problems most bulbs only have 180 degrees of coverage. I am keenly watching this LED company: Nanoleaf | The world's most energy efficient lightbulb!   
The sci-fi look isn't for everyone, but the specs are excellent, the light coverage is almost the same as an incandescent bulb and the price is competitive. there is very little heat either, the bulb I bought on Kickstarter only gets up to 35 degrees with not heatsink. 
Edit: while that Wattsaver downlight is very efficient at 101 lumens per watt, the Nanoleaf gets 120 lumens per watt  :Smilie:

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## GraemeCook

> Frankly 240v LEDs are rubbish. 
> They don't last as long as they can't disburse the heat.

  
Interesting;  so Phillips put their name to a rubbish product, and Mr Phillips is lying when he states a life expectancy of 15,000 hours for their LED globes.   
Fair Winds 
Graeme

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## phild01

> Interesting;  so Phillips put their name to a rubbish product, and Mr Phillips is lying when he states a life expectancy of 15,000 hours for their LED globes.   
> Fair Winds 
> Graeme

   Hang on, 15,000 hours is not as much as the typical life for an LED being 35,000 - 50,000 hours.  A 240v LED does not run at that voltage.  It is a regular LED that has the voltage reduced within the bulb itself.  !2v LED's also have their voltage broken down but not as much.  LEDs have various operating voltages up to around 5v.  Generally you will find that the external breaking down of voltage enables better LED performance.

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## Overkill

Perhaps Philips is just being honest about their LED's life span?  
More likely is that they factor in the failure of the power supply in the bulb, or that the light gets so hot that the LED dies prematurely. With 12V LEDs that have an external supply, the manufacturer only has to rate the LED itself and doesn't have to tell you the power supply will likely die well before the LED does  :Smilie:

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## chalkyt

For what its worth, I agree with Brian's comments about the Atom LEDs. I have just replaced oyster ceiling mounted fittings in a commercial lodge bedrooms with Atom 13W Warm White downlights (about 100mm diameter). One fitting comfortably does a room 3M x 4M and has a good wide spread. The distributor is in Brisbane so there should be plenty about up there. TLE has them for around $50. "Waste" $50 or so and mount one on a stick then wander about.

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## phild01

> For what its worth, I agree with Brian's comments about the Atom LEDs. I have just replaced oyster ceiling mounted fittings in a commercial lodge bedrooms with Atom 13W Warm White downlights (about 100mm diameter). One fitting comfortably does a room 3M x 4M and has a good wide spread. The distributor is in Brisbane so there should be plenty about up there. TLE has them for around $50. "Waste" $50 or so and mount one on a stick then wander about.

  
The thing that sways me away from the array of multi diameter downlights is that there is no standard cutout size adhered to.  I agree the surface mount leds are very good but I would prefer to have the more standard 92mm cutout and be able to replace a bulb rather than the entire unit.  Do you have the model number for the Atom unit.  I have looked at atom previously but maybe the one you refer to is different.

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## JB1

> Interesting;  so Phillips put their name to a rubbish product, and Mr Phillips is lying when he states a life expectancy of 15,000 hours for their LED globes.   
> Fair Winds 
> Graeme

  When you increase their brightness, you increase heat. There's a good reason why LEDs need a large heatsink- longer life, just like how performance cars needs larger radiators. Since we're on this forum, why quality power tools are heavier than cheaper tools.  
The way to make them last without a large heatsink is to reduce their lighting output- this is true for all 240V GU10 LEDs, not just Philips.  
I searched the Philips website for GU10 (240V) LEDs and the closest I found was this.  Philips MASTER LED 872790086624700 - Main Voltage spot 
Here is another Philips GU10 downlight.   Philips 7w MasterLED GU10 Warm White Lamp 
If you look at the output, it's only 270 lumens. That is pathetic output for 7 watts- 38.5lm per watt. CFLs produce much more lumens per watt.  
So compared to say the Wattsavers I linked previously, the Philips is uses half the power and outputs only 20% of the light.  
My main issue with LED these days is that many of the products out there today provide poor output and poor colour. Many people claim they are only using 15-20% of power compared to 12V halogens, but when you walk into their house I go "f#@! me, why is it so dark in there" because energy saving LEDs only produce 30% of the light and have CRI's of less than 90.  
Fortunately there are excellent LEDs out there today. If you're going LEDs, spend that little bit more for good LEDs ($50+), or install 12V halogens and then switchover to LEDs once quality units become cheap.  
Another thing to research is CRI- Colour Rendering Index. CRI is what makes halogen/incandescent lighting look crisp and sharp, and CFL/cheap LEDs look dull. The Philips has a CRI of >80 which isn't great. The Wattsavers are >90, still not has high as halogen, but closer.

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## chalkyt

Hi Phild01 (just as an aside, does anyone know why "return/enter" has stopped working when I post a reply, it used to???, so here we go with no paragraphs!!). The downlights I used are AT9012 13W, 90 degree beam angle, 800lm, with a flange OD of 110mm and a 90mm cutout. They come in white or silver with round or square flange and require 120mm clearance to combustible material above, 25mm to the side and 50mm to the side from ceiling insulation. Cool White is 4000K and Warm White is 3000K. I found the Warm White to look pretty close to incandescent. The distributors are Atom Lighting,17 Telford Pl Arundel Qld 4214, Ph 07 5537 1022. As Brian7886 said. four would be more than enough and if you didn't want the room super bright, even two might do the job.

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## GraemeCook

> When you increase their brightness, you increase heat. There's a good reason why LEDs need a large heatsink- longer life, just like how performance cars needs larger radiators. Since we're on this forum, why quality power tools are heavier than cheaper tools.  
> The way to make them last without a large heatsink is to reduce their lighting output- this is true for all 240V GU10 LEDs, not just Philips.  
> I searched the Philips website for GU10 (240V) LEDs and the closest I found was this.  Philips MASTER LED 872790086624700 - Main Voltage spot 
> Here is another Philips GU10 downlight.   Philips 7w MasterLED GU10 Warm White Lamp 
> If you look at the output, it's only 270 lumens. That is pathetic output for 7 watts- 38.5lm per watt. CFLs produce much more lumens per watt.  
> So compared to say the Wattsavers I linked previously, the Philips is uses half the power and outputs only 20% of the light.

  
Must agree with your comments on the MASTERLED GU10 from Philips: rather expensive - $42.94 for 7 wattslow output - 38.5 lumens per wattDo not fit standard light sockets - GU10BUT, life expectancy of 40,000 hours is good.  
But I was specifically referring to their standard E27 & B22 LEDs available in a range of outputs, warm white or cool white, and with standard bayonet of large edison screw bases: inexpensive - $14.99 for 13 watts at Woollieshigh output - 1055 lumens at 13 watts - 81 lumens per wattfit standard sockets and light fittingsLife expectancy of 15,000 hours is good when related to cost and efficiency.  You would need more than two of the masterleds to match to output of one of these.  Philips 871829167496200 - LED bulb 
Must agree with your implication that LEDs are probably the major light source of the future, but I think some development work and cost reduction work is needed before they will become ubiquitous.    
Note your comments on the CRI - but personnally, I do not like the harshness of halogen lights (and their inefficiency), and much prefer the softness of CFLs provided there are sufficient lumens.   Living in twilight is not my idea of saving lighting costs.    
Fair Winds 
Graeme

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## JB1

I didn't know you were referring to the e27 type bulbs, as the topic was about down lights. 
I still don't think its economical to use led e27 type bulbs as you can get very bright quality 20w CFLs for $6. 
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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## yols84

I ended up using the atom AT9012 in cool white as this was the look my wife and i wanted. I have found that these down lights are amazing and give off 950LM per light which is very bright. I ended up running the lounge room on 2 different switches with dimmers on each. 4 leds over the lounge area and 2 over the dining room. 
The kitchen was run with 4 down lights in an L shape on one switch and the 2 stars will eventually be pendant lights over an island bench. i Am yet to put a dimmer on the kitchen switch but will do so soon.

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## GoLights

> Hi guys,  
> Im having problems with where I am going to put the down light for my living rooms. I was wanting to use 12V LEDS but I wasn't too sure how many I would need to light the room. 2.4m ceilings  [/URL]

  Hi Yols84 
Downlight positioning is very important as other posters have discussed on this post. I would recommend a hoigh powered LED Down light (12W-13W) with a dimmable driver positioned about 2m apart in synchronised grids. 
So, I n your living room, I'd suggest 2x rows of 3x Downlights (longways), and the same for your kitchen/dining and hallway. 
Space them out evenly, and these will be more than enough. 
I hope this helps

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