# Forum Home Renovation Bathrooms  Questions regarding leaking shower

## orbitor

Hi guys, 
Another day, another problem :P This time it's a leaky shower.
Water is getting under the tiles outside the shower frame. Here is the shower:  
It's a stegbar semi-frameless setup. You may see there is some water staining around the left side of the drain, where a little water sit - suggesting the fall isn't perfect. The rest of the shower drains ok. Here is the drain:  
Here's one of the corners of the frame. You can see that the tiles outside of the shower have discolouration of the grout (particularly right side) and on the surface of the tile next to the grout. So water is somehow getting into that grout and not draining away very well.  
This is the other corner against the wall. Concerningly, a small amount of water seems to be travelling along the wall/floor join under the tiles and getting right to the doorframe on the far left:  
The leak is only evident while the shower is in use. Firstly I cleaned out the drain - there was a LOT of gunk trapped in there, but the shower wasn't really backing up much so probably not the cause. Then I stripped out all the old silicon inside the shower, planning to re-do that (silicon is gone in all these pics by the way). I noted that there was a significant amount of water sitting inside shower frame.  
The leaks appear to be originating at the shower frame brackets (two against walls, other in the 90 deg corner) 
Perhaps water is building up inside the frame, then leaking through the underlying grout, and making it's way out of the shower. The rubber seals in the shower frame between glass and frame have seen better days so would be letting water in. The grout between the tiles _inside_ the shower looks fine by the way. 
What should I do about fixing this? Should I get someone out to replace all the seals and corner joints of the shower frame, and reseal the shower frame with silicon? 
Or does the problem likely go deeper and I should just have the shower stripped back? By the way it's an upstairs shower so built on top of timber frame. 
I don't know what sort of waterproofing was done. Should there be an angle underneath the shower frame? 
Thanks for any advice.  :Biggrin:

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## johnc

It looks as though you have water ponding under the tiles and not getting away. You do need to recaulk (silicone) all joints, and it would be worth the effort to apply a tile and grout sealer. Before that though it needs to dry out, and that will take some time.  
Do you have any signs of water outside the bathroom area? You may end up having to rip up the tiles, rewaterproof and relay. However other than experiencing a similar problem this is best left to others here who will give a better response.

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## orbitor

A little water is getting to the door frame, but the waterstop at the bathroom entry seems to stop it at least for now. but otherwise there is no secondary damage evident from the leak. And yep the whole problem is that some water is getting out of the shower and under the surrounding tiles somehow. If you apply some pressure with your finger against the wall/floor joins outside of the shower, you can feel a tiny bit of dampness.

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## Oldsaltoz

There are three things that come to mind. 
1 / There is no water-stop angle located under the glass. 
2 / The seal at the bottom of the glass has failed. 
3 / The wall to glass seal has failed, just point the shower at the glass and check outside      with a tissue.  
I think I would remove the glass and check if water-stops have been installed, if so remove all traces of the old silicon and bed the glass on Sikaflex 11FC (FC= fast cure.) 
If it turns out to be no water-stops, I may be able to advise you further and save you from removing some tiles. 
Good luck. :Smilie:

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## Master Splinter

My guess, based on what I have seen tilers do, is that the waterstop angle has been used to set the level of the screed, so now the waterstop angle is bridged by the tile cement over the top of it, and water is using the porus tile cement as its path out of the shower.  Have a look here - some good illustrations of how it should be done.

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## Oldsaltoz

> My guess, based on what I have seen tilers do, is that the waterstop angle has been used to set the level of the screed, so now the waterstop angle is bridged by the tile cement over the top of it, and water is using the porus tile cement as its path out of the shower.  Have a look here - some good illustrations of how it should be done.

  Good thinking Master Splinter, I have to admit I have only seen this once in all my time but very possible. 
Well done. :Smilie:

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## orbitor

so the shower's waterstop - if installed - should come up a few mm's above the finished floor level, is that right? And then the frame sits over the top to hide it? How does the waterstop seal to the walls to prevent water getting out through the waterstop/wall joins? 
What sort of tradesman could I get in to remove the screen? I'm not real confident on doing it myself, think I'd end up with a broken screen heh. I'm in Toowoomba by the way. 
Thanks for the advice.

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## johnc

Because the screen is set into channels it is not easy to remove in one piece, so a tradie might suit best. Try your local glazier that is the logical place to start unless you have a specialist screen installer in the area.

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## Oldsaltoz

> so the shower's waterstop - if installed - should come up a few mm's above the finished floor level, is that right? And then the frame sits over the top to hide it? How does the waterstop seal to the walls to prevent water getting out through the waterstop/wall joins?  The water stop would have been waterproofed by the waterproofer or perhaps the tiler, it's just a small alloy angle stuck to the floor with a sealant and the wall end sealed to the wall. 
> It should all be one length as any joints can sometimes leak.  
> What sort of tradesman could I get in to remove the screen? I'm not real confident on doing it myself, think I'd end up with a broken screen heh. I'm in Toowoomba by the way.  Call your local glass and aluminium outlet for the removal and refit of the screen if you are not confident. 
> Thanks for the advice.

  By the way, how old is your shower, it may be still be under warranty, do you have a waterproofing certificate? 
If so call the applicator and get them to sort it out, it should be free. :Smilie:

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## orbitor

> By the way, how old is your shower, it may be still be under warranty, do you have a waterproofing certificate?

  Unfortunately no. We only bought this place a few months back and it's 7 years old. 
It's a stegbar frame, so I'm thnking I'll call them to send an installer out to remove and refit - welll only refit if the waterstop is present!

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## Oldsaltoz

> Unfortunately no. We only bought this place a few months back and it's 7 years old.  Builders warranty is 7 years, any problems before that are the builders problem, if you can demonstrate you had this problem within 7 yesrs you might be able to claim. 
> Waterproofer warranty is 5 to 25 years depending who did the job, your local council should have a copy of the form 16 and certificate, the warranty period in on the certificate.   
> It's a stegbar frame, so I'm thnking I'll call them to send an installer out to remove and refit - welll only refit if the waterstop is present!

  Warning, flameless shower glass is very fragile, a light tap on a corner and you bucket of tiny bits. 
Good luck. :Smilie:

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## orbitor

Already investigated builder's warranty, unfortunately it's out of the warranty period. But I'll definitely contact council about the form 16 and see what's what there. 
If a tiler has tiled over a waterstop though it wouldn't be the waterproofer who is liable to fix though I imagine?

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## Master Splinter

To answer your question about waterproofing on the walls - the angle is only used on the shower floor to bathroom floor area; the walls should be waterproofed to 150mm above the shower floor if the wall sheet is water resistant stuff like fibre cement, or 1800 if it isn't. 
From my personal experience with failed shower waterproofing, the repair ends up not actually doing the job either, because the exact same mistake gets made by the tiler after the waterproofing guy has left - but you now have a completely waterproof bathroom floor (not just shower) that grows pretty mold on the grout because the whole floor is like a sponge full of water.   
Then the tile cement starts failing and the grout starts popping out as it's not designed for constant immersion.  But that's ok, as you didn't like the 'replacement' tiles the builder used (because the original ones were 'no longer available' [read...too expensive to come out of the builder's pocket] ) and the whole bathroom needs to be tiled again!!  And so the bathroom gets re-tiled three times in four years....genius!

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## johnc

> Warning, flameless shower glass is very fragile, a light tap on a corner and you bucket of tiny bits.  Good luck.

  However for a brief moment the light glints beautifully off the tiny pieces of toughened glass as they hurtle towards corners and places you wouldn't think would be possible. :Biggrin:

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## Oldsaltoz

> Already investigated builder's warranty, unfortunately it's out of the warranty period. But I'll definitely contact council about the form 16 and see what's what there. 
> If a tiler has tiled over a waterstop though it wouldn't be the waterproofer who is liable to fix though I imagine?

  You are correct, the waterproofer would be held responsible for the tilers error, or the screen fitter, or the poor plumbing. 
He/she is responsible for the waterproofing, and in the event of a failure will put it right at no cost to you.

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## orbitor

> From my personal experience with failed shower waterproofing, the repair ends up not actually doing the job either, because the exact same mistake gets made by the tiler after the waterproofing guy has left

   :Frown:  So what do you recommend then? 
I have contacted council about the form 16, so will check that out before throwing money at this repair. Thankfully I have another shower to use that's _not_ leaking!

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## orbitor

ok some minor progress. I finally got around to obtaining the Form 16, as recommended by Oldsaltoz. 
The waterproofing was done by Wet-seal Australia and the certificate is for 17/9/2004 and carries a 7 year workmanship guarantee. So it is still under the guarantee but only just. 
The text regarding the ensuite on the waterproofing certificate is as follows: *Ensuite: Shower Type, Step Down. Tap Penetration UnSealed. Angle in doorway. Ensuite full floor waterproofing and wall/floor flashings.* 
So what exactly does this mean - maybe you can advise Oldsaltoz? As the photos above show, the shower isn't a step-down type, it's all one level. Unless a dopey tiler filled in a step down, who knows?

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## Oldsaltoz

> ok some minor progress. I finally got around to obtaining the Form 16, as recommended by Oldsaltoz. 
> The waterproofing was done by Wet-seal Australia and the certificate is for 17/9/2004 and carries a 7 year workmanship guarantee. So it is still under the guarantee but only just. 
> The text regarding the ensuite on the waterproofing certificate is as follows: *Ensuite: Shower Type, Step Down. Tap Penetration UnSealed. Angle in doorway. Ensuite full floor waterproofing and wall/floor flashings.* 
> So what exactly does this mean - maybe you can advise Oldsaltoz? As the photos above show, the shower isn't a step-down type, it's all one level. Unless a dopey tiler filled in a step down, who knows?

  Well the certificate states it was a step down shower so if it's not now I can only assume the tiler has filled it in? The penetrations unsealed refers to to shower outlet and tap penetrations, not being sealed at the time of waterproofing, this is common because the temporary stops often end behind the wall sheet so sealing the stop will be torn off when the taps are installed. Tilers seal them as normal practice.  
The angle in the doorway is the required water stop and the fact that the full floor was treated would indicate a timber or sheeted floor. 
As for the warranty call 1800 025 081 and let us all know how you go. 
Good luck. :Wink:

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## orbitor

> The angle in the doorway is the required water stop and the fact that the full floor was treated would indicate a timber or sheeted floor. 
> As for the warranty call 1800 025 081 and let us all know how you go. 
> Good luck.

  Yep that's correct, it's an upstairs shower so it's built on a wooden frame and would be sheeted floor I think. Anyway, I'll give them a call, get them to come out and inspect, and see what they say about the situation.

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## orbitor

Got another question for you oldsaltoz if you don't mind mate  :Smilie:  How should the drain be done in an upstairs shower (ie. set on sheeting) like this one? Is there some sort of puddle flange underneath the shower bed or what? I ask because I was thinking that maybe water getting under the tiles inside the shower is not being funneled to the shower drain properly. In the picture of the drain in my original post I can't see evidence of a puddle flange - but then I don't really know what to look for.

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## Oldsaltoz

> Got another question for you oldsaltoz if you don't mind mate  How should the drain be done in an upstairs shower (ie. set on sheeting) like this one? Is there some sort of puddle flange underneath the shower bed or what? I ask because I was thinking that maybe water getting under the tiles inside the shower is not being funnelled to the shower drain properly. In the picture of the drain in my original post I can't see evidence of a puddle flange - but then I don't really know what to look for.

  Any shower on an upper floor should have a puddle flange installed, and yours has one looking at the pictures. The other important item with puddle flanges is that the waterproofing must extend over the flange and into the waste area. 
Any shower over a timber floor must be sheeted, timber grows and shrinks with changes in humidity and would cause a failure if not sealed. This also applies to tiling over timber
as the tiles will eventually come off with the constant flexing of the timber. 
As for water getting under the tiles, this will depend on when the waterproofing was applied; if waterproofed before the screed was placed the water will get under the tiles, however the fitting that holds the waste grate has slots in to allow the base to drain. 
If the waterproofing is carried out after the screed has been placed the water will flow over the membrane into the waste pipe, but still be under the tiles, this is not a common method for showers but is used for most Vinyl floor coverings often used in wet area for disabled or aged people. 
Your local Wet-seal Australia applicator should be on his way if you called them, this means a full and comprehensive check that includes the plumbing will be carried out at no cost to you and action after that will depend on the findings. 
So relax and let the specialists sort this out for you. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

> Your local Wet-seal Australia applicator should be on his way if you called them, this means a full and comprehensive check that includes the plumbing will be carried out at no cost to you and action after that will depend on the findings.

  Well wet-seal finally got back to me (called three times before they returned the call). Described the problem etc. and they said it sounds like the waterproofing is ok since there's no significant damage outside of the bathroom, so they recommended taking it up with the builder. There was no offer of a full and comprehensive check, they stated the waterproofing sounds fine so if they were to come out and look there would be a callout fee etc  :Frown:

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## Oldsaltoz

> Well wet-seal finally got back to me (called three times before they returned the call). Described the problem etc. and they said it sounds like the waterproofing is ok since there's no significant damage outside of the bathroom, so they recommended taking it up with the builder. There was no offer of a full and comprehensive check, they stated the waterproofing sounds fine so if they were to come out and look there would be a call out fee etc

  G'day Orbitor, 
I re read your original post and have to say I came to the same conclusion re no requirement for a visit and full test, as there is no evidence of any damage or failure of the waterproofing. 
As the gob was done by Wet-seal Australia you can be confident the correct water stop was installed under the screen and properly waterproofed. 
I had occasion to pull apart a bathroom that was wet-seal waterproofed almost 20 years ago on an upper floor of an old Queenslander timber home, it was being pulled up because of any failure, but because it was overdue for an update. The base was in perfect condition with sign of failing or even movement, I just cleaned it all up and sealed the new waste pipe and new plumbing entry and exit points, job done. 
Your best bet now is to remove the screen and re seal all points of contact with a wet area sealant, but only after removing all the old sealant anf wiping the area with some Acetone or other chemical cleaner. 
Note, If you can not see the water stop angle under the screen please post some pictures, as it may be that the tiler has beded to the water stop top edge as suggested by master splinter, but this would have started leaking a lot sooner I suspect. 
Also check the profile at the bottom of the screen, if it's the type that straddles the angle, then it should be waterproofes/sealed on the inside, if not seal it on the outside. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

> I re read your original post and have to say I came to the same conclusion re no requirement for a visit and full test, as there is no evidence of any damage or failure of the waterproofing.

  You're probably right. The only damage is discoloured tiles and grout, and a little water damage to the door frame on one side where it presumably sits 'in' the waterproofed area.   

> Your best bet now is to remove the screen and re seal all points of contact with a wet area sealant, but only after removing all the old sealant anf wiping the area with some Acetone or other chemical cleaner. 
> Note, If you can not see the water stop angle under the screen please post some pictures, as it may be that the tiler has beded to the water stop top edge as suggested by master splinter, but this would have started leaking a lot sooner I suspect.

  I suspect there is no water stop angle under the screen at all, and never was, otherwise it would probably be stated on the certificate? Based on the certificate it was supposed to be a step down shower (so no waterstop) but it might be that was lost on the tiler since the shower and floor are the same level now...but yep, I'm going to go ahead and remove the screen. Well, talk to Stegbar and see what they recommend for removal anyway. 
I think it's been leaking for a long time, but since it's a sneaky leak under the tiles, we never spotted it on inspection - we've only had the house a few months. Why the previous owner wouldn't have just had it fixed under the builder's warranty I have no idea. Maybe they were oblivious to it.

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## an3_bolt

Just wondering - what is the fix for no water stop under the shower screen?

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## orbitor

> Just wondering - what is the fix for no water stop under the shower screen?

  oldsaltoz will no doubt have some great advice, but anyway the wet-seal rep said to me that it could probably be corrected by taking up one row of tiles inside the shower and then fitting an angle...

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## Oldsaltoz

> Just wondering - what is the fix for no water stop under the shower screen?

  Not something I have ever had to do but. 
I would mark outer edge of the shower screen location on the existing tiles, remove the screen, then cut the tiles with a diamond disc on a grinder about 5 or 10mm inside the screen line. 
Then remove any cut tiles fron inside of the shower to give enough space to install an angle. 
However, on doing this the waterproofing would be damaged and have to be done again as well. 
There is now way the shower in this thread has this problem though.

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## orbitor

> There is now way the shower in this thread has this problem though.

  What makes you say that mate? I can't see how this could have happened if there was an angle underneath. Anyway, all shall be revealed soon when the screen comes out! I'm going to pencil the screen edge before it does as you've suggested. 
I have another picture. I pulled up the edge of the carpet where there is some minor damage to the ensuite's doorframe from I guess water sitting in the tile bed. This is a good example of the manky grout too. Anyway noticed something odd - there appear to be two angles installed?!? First the main one, then another inside it up to the tile level. Seems weird to me!

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## Oldsaltoz

> What makes you say that mate? I can't see how this could have happened if there was an angle underneath. Anyway, all shall be revealed soon when the screen comes out! I'm going to pencil the screen edge before it does as you've suggested. 
> I have another picture. I pulled up the edge of the carpet where there is some minor damage to the ensuite's doorframe from I guess water sitting in the tile bed. This is a good example of the manky grout too. Anyway noticed something odd - there appear to be two angles installed?!? First the main one, then another inside it up to the tile level. Seems weird to me!

  Someone needs to have a serious talk with the tiler. 
The angle MUST be at least above the tile base, this angle looks be below the tile base and no sign of any sealant around the timber or the gap between angle and tile. 
This looks like a dodgy brothers job. 
I suspect the second angle was installed when they discovered they needed more fall, so took a short cut and installed it over the first one, very shoddy workmanship. 
It might be repairable but at the risk of breaking the edge tile/s. 
Most entry angles that fail are due to poor or no sealant up the two end sections and I always remind tilers and DIY renovators to take great care in this area, it can expensive to fix, and all for a couple of inches of sealant. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

Pretty disappointing overall really. Like you say, it appears the tiler was bloody useless. Even after all that for instance, they still managed to get the fall in the shower wrong so water pools around the drain a bit. 
Do you get the feeling this is all relatively fixable, or should it all be torn out and started over? I have a box of spare wall tiles, but no spare floor tiles...

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## Oldsaltoz

> Pretty disappointing overall really. Like you say, it appears the tiler was bloody useless. Even after all that for instance, they still managed to get the fall in the shower wrong so water pools around the drain a bit. 
> Do you get the feeling this is all relatively fixable, or should it all be torn out and started over? I have a box of spare wall tiles, but no spare floor tiles...

  It would be possible to remove a row or two of the tiles at the door then remove a few mm of the screed, replace the angle and re tile. 
If you ever contemplate fixing the shower base, you will almost certainly have to remove the bottom row of the wall tiles and all the base tiles, then reform the screed to the right profile if it's still in reasonable condition. 
The shower may need more waterproofing depending on whether it was waterproofed before or after the screed was put in.  
I would also add that by the look of very poor standard of tiling and leveling it will only be a matter of time before other problems develop. 
Looks like the dodgy brothers strike again. 
.

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## orbitor

Thanks so much for all your input oldsaltoz. I wouldn't have a clue what to look for myself! 
What I'm thinking I will do from here: 
1) Get the local wet-seal guy out to assess the situation first hand, as fixing this is almost certainly going to require some new waterproofing, which is the critical part of the whole thing.
2) After he has assessed how best to fix, get his recommendation on a good tiler to use.
3) Get the tiler out to assess and quote on the work.

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## Oldsaltoz

> Thanks so much for all your input oldsaltoz. I wouldn't have a clue what to look for myself! 
> What I'm thinking I will do from here: 
> 1) Get the local wet-seal guy out to assess the situation first hand, as fixing this is almost certainly going to require some new waterproofing, which is the critical part of the whole thing.
> 2) After he has assessed how best to fix, get his recommendation on a good tiler to use.
> 3) Get the tiler out to assess and quote on the work.

  G'day Orbitor, 
You may have a problems with your plans, getting the waterproofer and the tiler to do an assessment may result in a conflict and you have to do the whole thing again. 
For instance, the waterproofer may advise you to only fix the shower and quote on that basis, then the tiler tells you to rip the lot out, meaning the waterproofer has to return, or it could go the other way, all a bit messy. 
The waterproofing warranty will only cover the area/s treated and we know you have problems inside and outside the shower. 
I suspect you only need to remove the bottom row of the shower wall tiles and look at replacing the whole floor inside and outside the shower. 
I would get a quote from the tiler based on what he has to do (after you take off any work you plan to do yourself). 
Then measure the floor area and call 1800 025 081 and ask them to send a quote. 
You might also like to consider breaking the project into 3; strip and level. Waterproof.
Then tile. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

> For instance, the waterproofer may advise you to only fix the shower and quote on that basis, then the tiler tells you to rip the lot out, meaning the waterproofer has to return, or it could go the other way, all a bit messy. 
> The waterproofing warranty will only cover the area/s treated and we know you have problems inside and outside the shower. 
> I suspect you only need to remove the bottom row of the shower wall tiles and look at replacing the whole floor inside and outside the shower. 
> I would get a quote from the tiler based on what he has to do (after you take off any work you plan to do yourself). 
> Then measure the floor area and call 1800 025 081 and ask them to send a quote. 
> You might also like to consider breaking the project into 3; strip and level. Waterproof.
> Then tile. 
> Good luck.

  That sounds sensible mate. I think I'd prefer just to go the route of redoing the whole floor as it's not great and I want to get it fixed properly so there are no continuing or new problems. 
How hard is it generally to remove the floor and wall tiles from a bathroom like this built on top of sheeting? Would it even be worthwhile or would this part not be real expensive anyway? Is it DIY-able for someone with no tiling experience but some dadpower involved? My father has built a fair bit of stuff in his time, including a whole house, extensions etc. including doing all the tiling (on slab, not sheeting). 
Oh, I still might call the wet-seal guy to see if he can recommend a skilled tiler in Toowoomba!

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## Oldsaltoz

> That sounds sensible mate. I think I'd prefer just to go the route of redoing the whole floor as it's not great and I want to get it fixed properly so there are no continuing or new problems. 
> How hard is it generally to remove the floor and wall tiles from a bathroom like this built on top of sheeting? Would it even be worthwhile or would this part not be real expensive anyway? Is it DIY-able for someone with no tiling experience but some dadpower involved? My father has built a fair bit of stuff in his time, including a whole house, extensions etc. including doing all the tiling (on slab, not sheeting). 
> Oh, I still might call the wet-seal guy to see if he can recommend a skilled tiler in Toowoomba!

  Let's face it, you could hardly make it any worse than it is, doing yourself with the added bonus of Dad power should be a doddle. 
I imagine stripping will not be too difficult if what we see is any representation of the standards used. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

> I imagine stripping will not be too difficult if what we see is any representation of the standards used.

  good point...I can literally scrape the grout out with my fingernail after all! Well when it was wet I could, it's hardened now we've stopped using the shower.

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## orbitor

Spoke to the local wet-seal guy, who was friendly and helpful. He gave me the contacts of three good tilers in Toowoomba. I'll get at least 2 of them out next week to inspect and quote (on doing the lot and on just tiling if I do the tile removal myself). 
Next Friday Stegbar will come and remove the shower screen for $30 so beats doing it myself and probably ending up with a pile of sand  :Smilie:  
Now to see how many spare wall tiles I have and whether the wall/floor tiles are still available!

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## orbitor

> I suspect you only need to remove the bottom row of the shower wall tiles and look at replacing the whole floor inside and outside the shower.

  *Oldsaltoz:* have a question on this mate before I talk to the tilers if you don't mind...You mentioned that probably only the bottom row of shower tiles would have to come out. If this was done, how would the waterproofing work? The tiles higher up the wall would have a membrane behind right? So how do you ensure the membrane is continuous if you only take the one row of tiles out? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just trying to get my head around how this might work.

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## Oldsaltoz

> *Oldsaltoz:* have a question on this mate before I talk to the tilers if you don't mind...You mentioned that probably only the bottom row of shower tiles would have to come out. If this was done, how would the waterproofing work? The tiles higher up the wall would have a membrane behind right? So how do you ensure the membrane is continuous if you only take the one row of tiles out? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I'm just trying to get my head around how this might work.

  The shower base waterproofing covers the floor area and up the walls to height just above the shower entry (to ensure water will flow out the entry rather than into the walls). 
If a WR sheeting has been used (like Villaboard) there will not be a membrane covering the rest of the wall as it's not required, even in the standards. 
By removing the bottom row of tiles you should be able to expose the main area of waterproofing, the only other sealed areas are the corner sheet joint and tap seals. 
Hope this helps.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

ah, makes sense. Thanks a lot! 
Well, I found that the floor tiles are unfortunately no longer available (no big surprise). Though I could really replace them with anything since it's a separate room. As for the wall tiles, I have 9 spares, which actually covers 18 spots along the base row since they are less than half length there so with a bit of luck I'm ok there. Also have a few of the feature tiles spare as well. Don't have any shower floor tiles, but they're just a 20x20 basic grey anyway so no biggie. 
Will have a couple of tilers out this week to quote on the work.

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## orbitor

had a tiler out today. His advice was to pull out the shower frame and shower floor, and then build in a hob, seal the hob and re-tile. This would at least mean there would be no need to retile the ensuite floor.  
But I'm not over the moon about the idea. Surely a hobless shower can be made to not leak. This tiler also stated he had the same problem in a disabled shower he did. That didn't exactly fill me with confidence! 
Got a couple more tilers coming out so we'll see what they say.

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## orbitor

Righto, well the screen is out so we can see the damage properly. The issues as I see them: 
1) Fall to drain not great in shower
2) No waterstop angle under screen
3) Screen sealed on both sides rather than just outside, and no drain holes in screen
4) Tiles inside shower higher than tiles outside shower in some places
5) Some small holes and cracks in grout between shower tiles and floor tiles, which would let in the water from inside and under the screen frame 
I'll let some pictures do the talking:  
Note cracked grout and complete absence of a waterstop:  
This tries to show how the tiles in the shower are slightly higher than the tiles outside of it:  
So now to pull some tiles and get the damn thing fixed. Does anyone have any experience with the Gleda Waterstop? See: Simplifying Shower Construction - Waterstop Streamline
This looks like a good design to me that would maximise leak resistance.

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## Oldsaltoz

> Righto, well the screen is out so we can see the damage properly. The issues as I see them: 
> 1) Fall to drain not great in shower
> 2) No waterstop angle under screen
> 3) Screen sealed on both sides rather than just outside, and no drain holes in screen
> 4) Tiles inside shower higher than tiles outside shower in some places
> 5) Some small holes and cracks in grout between shower tiles and floor tiles, which would let in the water from inside and under the screen frame 
> So now to pull some tiles and get the damn thing fixed. Does anyone have any experience with the Gleda Waterstop? See: Simplifying Shower Construction - Waterstop Streamline
> This looks like a good design to me that would maximise leak resistance.

  What a dogs breakfast of a job that was, cowboy or dodgy brothers incorporated. 
From what I can see in the pictures the walk in shower has poor drainage becaise the tiler has put a maybe a 5 mm skim around the outside on a flat floor, no wonder the drainage is ponding. 
No sign of a water stop angle around the shower outer edge, and if the is one under all that it's too small, the angle should sit up above the shower tiles by 5 mm or more. 
The water streamline waterstop will work in this situation, however if you want a much cheaper version that also comes in a range of colours and metallic finishes, have talk to your local Wet-seal waterproofer. 
They are installed in 90% of new homes an 70% of renovations replacing hobs. 
In your case there is no requirement to remove any floor tiles other than the ones inside the shower and the bottom row of the shower walls only. 
The original shower screen can be refitted. 
You should name and shame the rat bag that did his. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> You should name and shame the rat bag that did his.

  *Maybe, but not on this forum.*

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## orbitor

> In your case there is no requirement to remove any floor tiles other than the ones inside the shower and the bottom row of the shower walls only. 
> The original shower screen can be refitted. 
> You should name and shame the rat bag that did his.

  LOL I would love to name and shame, but I appreciate it's against the rules here, and besides I wouldn't want those responsible for this great site risking legal wrangles - seen it happen to other websites! 
Oldsalt: can I ask, what do you mean by a '5mm skim around the outside'? 
So if I'm reading you right, this could be fixed pretty well by: 
1) Remove all floor tiles and first row of wall tiles in shower area only
2) Remove some of the screed material underneath to get the floor level down a little (necessary because the shower floor is ever so slightly higher than the outside floor?)
3) Fit angle to shower floor, seal to walls etc.
4) Redo waterproofing membrane over shower floor and floor/wall interface
5) Retile using a COMPETENT tiler who can achieve some fall and leaves the angle up out of the tile level!!!@#!@#!
6) Refit screen - does the screen go inside the angle or over the top of the angle? Then guy who removed the screen this morning said it should ideally go inside the angle...

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## Oldsaltoz

> LOL I would love to name and shame, but I appreciate it's against the rules here, and besides I wouldn't want those responsible for this great site risking legal wrangles - seen it happen to other websites! 
> Oldsalt: can I ask, what do you mean by a '5mm skim around the outside'?  I suspect the tiler has a 10 or 15mm angle around the shower area and then put a screed between the top of the angle and the waste to create the slight fall, and the raised edge of the shower base. 
> So if I'm reading you right, this could be fixed pretty well by: 
> 1) Remove all floor tiles and first row of wall tiles in shower area only
> 2) Remove some of the screed material underneath to get the floor level down a little (necessary because the shower floor is ever so slightly higher than the outside floor?)  remove the tiles and the screed to base level, this provides a good surface for the fixing and waterproofing of the new angle. 
> 3) Fit angle to shower floor, seal to walls etc.
> 4) Redo waterproofing membrane over shower floor and floor/wall interface
> 5) Retile using a COMPETENT tiler who can achieve some fall and leaves the angle up out of the tile level!!!@#!@#!
> 6) Refit screen - does the screen go inside the angle or over the top of the angle? Then guy who removed the screen this morning said it should ideally go inside the angle...  I suspect your screen has a flat base, in this case the screen would go inside the angle leaving a small gap between the angle and the screen frame, this would be sealed thn another angle placed over the area between the frame and the floor.

  Hope this helps 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

Well I've finally made a proper start on this and thought I'd check in and see if I'm going about it the right way. 
Firstly I spent literally ages cutting the grout out around a tile near the drain. The grout is absolutely rock hard! Then I cut the grout out around the perimeter of the grey shower floor tiles, so when I take out the shower floor tiles, cracks hopefully won't propagate to the white floor tiles since I'm not removing those (hopefully). 
Here's what I've done thus far. Using paint scraper + hammer to prise up tiles. They are stuck down extremely well!  
Do I need to remove all this grey tile glue stuff and all of the sandy mortar below? I'm guessing yes....obviously the existing waterproofing is below all this. Is there any easy way to remove this stuff? Currently I'm using a cold chisel and hammer.

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## Oldsaltoz

> LOL I would love to name and shame, but I appreciate it's against the rules here, and besides I wouldn't want those responsible for this great site risking legal wrangles - seen it happen to other websites! 
> Oldsalt: can I ask, what do you mean by a '5mm skim around the outside'? A small amount of screed that does not cover the whole base and only provides partial fall to the waste. 
> So if I'm reading you right, this could be fixed pretty well by: 
> 1) Remove all floor tiles and first row of wall tiles in shower area only
> 2) Remove All of the screed material underneath to get the floor level down And install an angle around the outside. (necessary because the shower floor is ever so slightly higher than the outside floor?)
> 3) Fit angle to shower floor, AND WATERPROOF UP THE WALLS walls etc.
> 4) Redo waterproofing membrane over shower floor and floor/wall interface
> 5) Re tile using a COMPETENT tiler who can achieve some fall and leave the angle up out of the FINISHED tile level by 3 to 5 mm.
> 6) Refit screen - Inside the new angle and add another angle to the outside just to cover the exposed angle on the floor.

  Good luck.  :Smilie:  
PS. You might fund it a lot faster and easier to hire a jack-hammer with a spade chisel for the day and clean the tray completely first.

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## orbitor

thanks again, mate. 
Do you think if I chip the mortar bed down to the base level, will i then be able to pry it out in chunks? You're right - it's probably worth hiring the jackhammer for that task....

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## Oldsaltoz

> thanks again, mate. 
> Do you think if I chip the mortar bed down to the base level, will i then be able to pry it out in chunks? You're right - it's probably worth hiring the jackhammer for that task....

  If you get to the base level the tiles and base material may all come up in large chunks, the screed material is around 15 MPA so soft compared to your slab. 
Take care around the edges, work from the outside in and toward the centre and walls. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

This shower is on sheeting though (upper level), not a slab. Does that make a difference to how I should remove the mortar bed?

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## orbitor

Actually, maybe this won't be too bad. Once through the super hard tile cement, the mortar bed is a bit crumbly I can scrape it apart quite easily with a cold chisel. The mortar bed is about an inch thick and I guess that's the waterproofing underneath?

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## Oldsaltoz

> This shower is on sheeting though (upper level), not a slab. Does that make a difference to how I should remove the mortar bed?

  Depends on the type of sheeting, f it's tile underlay be very gentle, you should see lots of nail heads. 
If it's AC sheeting it be 12 mm or more thick so no real problems. 
Good luck. :Smilie:

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## orbitor

Progress! Tiles are coming out ok, as is the screed. Is it normal for the waste grate to just be hanging in the air like this? And also, the flooring is actually higher around the drain then elsewhere in the shower. It seems to bulge up over something round. Is this a membrane stretched over a puddle flange? Why would they make the waste point higher than the surroudning floor? Surely this is contributing to water not draining away effectively.

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## Oldsaltoz

It sounds like the puddle flange may not have been recessed. 
Not uncommon I'm afraid.

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## orbitor

cheers oldsaltoz. would that constitute faulty waterproofing? I still do have the wet-seal guarantee after all.

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## Oldsaltoz

The standard states that the wall to floor flashing must finish above the entry exit of the shower. 
So, if a hob was fitted the flashing would go up the wall to a point above the top edge of the hob; this is done to ensure no water gets into the walls if the shower is blocked, it will overflow rather than soak the wall sheets. 
However you will only see this when you remove the lower row of wall tiles. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

The plot thickens! It looks like, consistent with what is on the wet-seal certificate, the shower was originally supposed to be a 'step-down' setup. Here you can see I've taken the bed out down to the tray. The tray is set about 25mm lower than the base level outside the shower (shower area is in foreground, cream tile is the floor outside the shower):   
So it appears the tiler, instead of setting the shower floor level lower, simply built it up with a mortar bed to actually every so slightly higher than outside floor level. In the process, the try was bridged by the mortar bed and tile cement, allowing water to travel through and saturate the area under the tiles outside the shower. 
oldsaltoz, based on this do you think I should do anything differently? Would you put a waterstop angle beside the edge of the shower tray? The 25mm may not be adequate I would think if relying solely on the tray itself? 
And one more question - as can be seen in the pic, there is some black rubbery textured stuff in between the floor tiles and the edge of the shower tray. Any idea what this is and what it's for?

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## Oldsaltoz

> The plot thickens! It looks like, consistent with what is on the wet-seal certificate, the shower was originally supposed to be a 'step-down' setup. Here you can see I've taken the bed out down to the tray. The tray is set about 25mm lower than the base level outside the shower (shower area is in foreground, cream tile is the floor outside the shower):   
> So it appears the tiler, instead of setting the shower floor level lower, simply built it up with a mortar bed to actually every so slightly higher than outside floor level. In the process, the try was bridged by the mortar bed and tile cement, allowing water to travel through and saturate the area under the tiles outside the shower.  This is not even close to any standard and was doomed to fail, the tiler should be advised and make good any repairs. It was designed to be set 'below' the slab by at least the thickness of the tile and glue combined, then water stops installed at floor level. 
> oldsaltoz, based on this do you think I should do anything differently? Would you put a waterstop angle beside the edge of the shower tray? The 25mm may not be adequate I would think if relying solely on the tray itself?  Properly done a recessed shower will never leak, looks much better too. I would reinstate the shower as it was designed to be with the wover waste lower than the slab  
> And one more question - as can be seen in the pic, there is some black rubbery textured stuff in between the floor tiles and the edge of the shower tray. Any idea what this is and what it's for?

  That looks like rubber based tile glue, normal practice. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

would you mind explaining a little further mate? Are you suggesting after ripping the tiles and base out, it could just be rebuilt without redoing the waterproofing? So would the shower just be 'rebuilt' lower so the floor inside sits no higher than the edge of the green waterproof membrane? Where would the waterstops go and would the tiler do these? 
Keep in mind this shower is on sheeting, not a slab if that makes a difference... 
Thanks again for your patience with my newbie-ness regarding all this. I simply want a shower that is virtually leak proof so I don't have to worry about it again! I seem to have really poor luck with the things - they leaked in my old house too.

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## Oldsaltoz

> would you mind explaining a little further mate?  
> Are you suggesting after ripping the tiles and base out, it could just be rebuilt without redoing the waterproofing?  No way, it will have to be waterproofed, who knows what damage has been done when ripping it out. 
>  So would the shower just be 'rebuilt' lower so the floor inside sits no higher than the edge of the green waterproof membrane? Where would the waterstops go and would the tiler do these?  The water stops must be located outside the shower recess at the slab level, they can close to the edge, but measure both ways first as the recess is hardly ever in quite the right alignment. 
> Keep in mind this shower is on sheeting, not a slab if that makes a difference...  Hang on a minute, if this is a sheeted floor then the recess must have been built in, or there would be no recess, or has the whole floor been raised on a screed?? 
> Thanks again for your patience with my newbie-ness regarding all this. I simply want a shower that is virtually leak proof so I don't have to worry about it again! I seem to have really poor luck with the things - they leaked in my old house too.

  Please advise.

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## orbitor

Yes, I think that the shower recess must have been built in at a slightly lower level than the surrounding floor, as it does not look like the whole floor is raised on a screed.

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## Oldsaltoz

> Yes, I think that the shower recess must have been built in at a slightly lower level than the surrounding floor, as it does not look like the whole floor is raised on a screed.

  When you have removed all the old material have a look around the base, you should see only a small, perhaps 4 mm or less between the floor tiles and the top of the recess.

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## orbitor

okey dokey, I will post back with what I find once I have got rid of the base completely and have removed the bottom row of shower wall tiles  :Smilie:

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## Oldsaltoz

Must be the season, I was called to waterproof a reno shower today. 
Recessed base with old floor tiles to remain, and they ended right on the edge of the recess. 
The best way to do this was to place an angle inside the recess that butted up the floor tiles, but the client waned to make the shower 40 to 50 mm larger in both directions and add a niche into the shower wall. 
Ended up with a 15 mm angle set about 35 mm from the recess and the waterproofing ran from the angle across the tiles, down the recess and up the opposite wall/s. 
The new shower screen will be installed over the angle and another placed between the glass and the existing floor tiles. 
This means the tiles inside the shower will finish about 3 to 5 mm below the angle and 90 of the shower base will be blow the rest of the floor level. 
Let's hope yours will be a little less complicated. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## heavytrevy

Having read the last 2 pages of this thread it should be noted... semi - framless glass = water stops 1.5 from the rose in any direction unless the floor is fully waterproofed.
as this was a second story bathroom sheeted and screeded with semi frameless glass it would of been waterproofed as a open shower/wetroom, hence the waterproofer stating there is no failure if the water hasn't left the bathroom. 
in general terms this bathroom complies to waterproofing and building codes.
But its design and completion leave a lot to be desired as the owner has found out.
Things i would change....... 
1.waterproof over the screed/ why ?  mould and damp are minimized/ who needs to smell a waterlogged screed  :Redface: ) 
I can only speculated as to why it wasn't done this way, but my best bet is tiling contractors screeding skills are sub par
The door angle tells the story. 
2.define the shower enclosure with a waterstop finished at floor height hidden under the shower screen.   
Regards
Trev

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## orbitor

> in general terms this bathroom complies to waterproofing and building codes.
> But its design and completion leave a lot to be desired as the owner has found out.
> Things i would change....... 
> 1.waterproof over the screed/ why ?  mould and damp are minimized/ who needs to smell a waterlogged screed ) 
> I can only speculated as to why it wasn't done this way, but my best bet is tiling contractors screeding skills are sub par
> The door angle tells the story. 
> 2.define the shower enclosure with a waterstop finished at floor height hidden under the shower screen.

  heh, if this shower is compliant with the codes, then the codes are pretty weak :/ 
I'm thinking of waterproofing below and above the screed and getting waterstops right round. I want to make this as leak proof as possible.

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## orbitor

Damn, I stuffed up. The wall tiles really don't want to come off the backing board, and when it did it took a big chunk of the backer board with it :/ I hope this is fixable. Really doesn't help that the backer board is so thin!

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## heavytrevy

No biggie, just replace the sheeting.
at least the tiles were stuck on good lol

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## Oldsaltoz

> Damn, I stuffed up. The wall tiles really don't want to come off the backing board, and when it did it took a big chunk of the backer board with it :/ I hope this is fixable. Really doesn't help that the backer board is so thin!

  Yes it can be repaired, the trick is to cut the sheet below the tile and above the damage, normally all the way round. 
Then replace with new cut board and waterproof the join and back down onto the base. 
Good to the wet-seal extends up behind the tiles as predicted, and and per Aus Standards. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

ok great, that's a relief....is the patching something my wet-seal guy would do when I get him back to redo the waterproofing? I wouldn't trust my skills not to make the hole in the wall worse!

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## Oldsaltoz

Most likely he will, just depends on the location and severity. 
Good luck  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

Righto, been away on holidays, but now it's time to get cracking on this. 
Shower floor tiles and screed base is completely out. Now for the wall tiles. Anyone got some suggestions as how to remove these tricky buggers? They are attached to flimsy backing sheet with this rubbery glue and are stuck HARD. I'm currently using a small paint scraper to separate the tile from backing, but they're stuck on so damn well. I'm trying not to destroy the backing board.

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## Oldsaltoz

Common practice is to remove the sheet with most of the tiles stilled glued on. This means you can check the condition of the stud wall frame and also check the plumbing for leaks. 
This method is also a lot faster and causes less mess. 
It also avoids the task of removing old tile glue and provides an opportunity to level the walls making tiling a lot simpler. 
Good luck.  :Smilie:

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## orbitor

I wouild do that if I was retiling the whole room, but given I'm just taking out the bottom row of wall tiles and the floor tiles inside the shower, that's not really an option, would you agree? Because I figure there would be no way to join up the backing board again to the existing backing board? 
I'm highly confident that no water has escaped the waterproofing, it's all been done well and no evidence of any leaks. It's the tiling and screen install that's been stuffed up completely.

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## orbitor

Well! Back from overseas and it's time to get motoring on this! 
The tiles are out, except for the last one on each side. I'll take them out too, but I was seeing how the frame would fit back in once a waterstop is fitted. The answer? Not sure, so I'm back here for advice. Here is a shot of everything out. As far as I can see, the waterproofing was not compromised in any way. It was the lack of a waterstop and the poor tiling that was the problem.   
Firstly, I made a bit of a mess of the wall boards on one side, with holes in two spots. I hope to hell these can be patched! One of them goes right up to the next wall tile....  
Anyway, here is how the frame fits back in. The frame itself will fit within the 'tray' with I think enough room for a waterstop angle, but the corner brackets may not. How do these waterstops work? Do they go on the outside of all parts of the frame including the corner brackets? See how the corner bracket sits over the floor tile (just) but the frame is inside with a small gap. This is the same story for the other two corners of the frame.   
 Any advice much appreciated. I intend to get the local wet-seal guy out to have a look now. If the frame is not going to fit once a waterstop angle is installed, I assume it can be resized without too much drama. But what about the shower screen glass? Can it be resized if it needed to be to bring it in slightly closer and fit within the shower base??

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## Oldsaltoz

Yes the frame should be installed inside the angle, then after it's all ligned up and level you apply sealant between the water stop and the base of the frame. 
Do not seal from the inside as this trap water. 
Wet test after the sealant has cured by closing off the wast outlet with some cling wrap and fill the shower, checking around the outside for any sign of a leak. 
You can then hide the mess/sealant by adding an angle onto the outside, top on the frame or glass to frame interface and bottom onto the finished floor tiles. Like an upside down upper case letter 'L'. 
This bit of angle can be powder coated the same coulou as the frame, the tiles or other materials like brass or Chrome etc. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

> Yes the frame should be installed inside the angle, then after it's all ligned up and level you apply sealant between the water stop and the base of the frame. 
> Do not seal from the inside as this trap water. 
> Wet test after the sealant has cured by closing off the wast outlet with some cling wrap and fill the shower, checking around the outside for any sign of a leak. 
> You can then hide the mess/sealant by adding an angle onto the outside, top on the frame or glass to frame interface and bottom onto the finished floor tiles. Like an upside down upper case letter 'L'. 
> This bit of angle can be powder coated the same coulou as the frame, the tiles or other materials like brass or Chrome etc. 
> Good luck.

  Cheers oldsaltoz. I just had our local wet-seal contractor out to quote on the work. He has quoted on doing the following:
- repair and seal existing membrane, with some new membrane over the top of the dodgy wall part.
- fit 40mm angle inside the base on the two non-wall sides and seal it all. This will leave ~5mm proud of the floor tiles
- get tiling done by his recommendation of a contractor
- shower screen fitted straddles the angle and is sealed on the outside only (the screen has a U-shaped track on the underside that I presume is for this sort of fitting) 
This sounds reasonable to me. He felt that the idea of having the angle fully outside of the screen wouldn't work unless the floor tiles were removed, just because of the positioning of the existing floor tiles and so on. 
I think he's basically saying do this, except without sealant on the inner side: http://www.waterproofingsolutions.co...m/image018.gif

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## Oldsaltoz

All good. So glad it all got sorted and you will have warranty for the work done so nothing to warry about. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

indeed and thanks for your advice along the way mate. 
Wife will be very pleased to have the ensuite shower back... 
I'll post back when the waterproofing stage is done just for interest's sakes. It's always good when a thread shows the resolution as well as the problem!

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## orbitor

oh another thing the waterproofer mentioned that never even occurred to me but makes perfect sense... 
A tiler should always spread the tile adhesive for the wall tiles vertically, not horizontally. Horizontal fingers of adhesive may be spread over the shower boundaries, and capillary action could possibly deliver moisture outside of the shower enclosure. Makes sense when you think about it!

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## orbitor

Well wet-seal were in this morning to fit an angle and redo the waterproofing. Here is what they've done - complete new membrane over the top of the old one and an angle installed around, sitting ~5mm up from the finished floor level:   
Now the only thing concerning me is the placement of the angle. I hope it's going to fit within my screen since it's not up completely flush with the floor tiles!  
Secondly, should I fill the gap between angle and floor tile with something or leave it to the tiler or screen fitter?

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## Oldsaltoz

> Well wet-seal were in this morning to fit an angle and redo the waterproofing. Here is what they've done - complete new membrane over the top of the old one and an angle installed around, sitting ~5mm up from the finished floor level:   
> Now the only thing concerning me is the placement of the angle. I hope it's going to fit within my screen since it's not up completely flush with the floor tiles!  
> Secondly, should I fill the gap between angle and floor tile with something or leave it to the tiler or screen fitter?

  Looks like you wasted no time getting a picture, it still looks wet. 
The angle has been left proud so the screen can fit inside the angle making it a positive water stop.
You need to make sure the tiler leaves 3 to 5mm of the angle above the tile finish level, also get him to fill gap around the outside. 
If you want to hide the water stop, apply another angle that has one edge on the screen and the other edge onto the tiles, stick it on with Sikaflex 11FC (fast cure). 
Looks like another job well done. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

yeah mate, I took those photos about 15 minutes after the fellow had left  :Biggrin:  
I get that the waterstop needs to stick up out of the tile level to work best - I meant how it hasn't been placed directly up against the side of the tiles. I'm refitting my existing screen so the placement of the angle does make the shower enclosure just slightly smaller. I'll wait till the stuff drives (24 hours?) and then check how the screen is going to fit. The screen is a type with a u-shaped channel in the bottom so the idea is that it will actually straddle the waterstop angle, rather than sit inside it.

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## Oldsaltoz

> yeah mate, I took those photos about 15 minutes after the fellow had left  
> I get that the waterstop needs to stick up out of the tile level to work best - I meant how it hasn't been placed directly up against the side of the tiles. I'm refitting my existing screen so the placement of the angle does make the shower enclosure just slightly smaller. I'll wait till the stuff drives (24 hours?) and then check how the screen is going to fit. The screen is a type with a u-shaped channel in the bottom so the idea is that it will actually straddle the waterstop angle, rather than sit inside it.

  No problem here then, the outer edge of the sceen will cover the gap that the tiller will fill, just make sure ALL the sealant is over the angle and outsude it under the screen, no sealant inside the shower base, this will allow proper free drainage and avoid mould stains. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

Sourced new floor tiles, and had the tiling redone. Angle extends a good ~5mm on both sides above the finished floor level. The screen will straddle the angle. Still some grout haze to be cleaned up in this pic:

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## orbitor

And now the shower screen is back in with new seals etc. Screen has been installed straddling the waterstop angle, but so that the outside edge of the screen is hard up against the angle. The screen is then sealed on the outside but not on the inside, allowing water in the screen to drain back into the shower area (via some small relief holes that were drilled in the bottom) rather than building up and finding its own way out.  
Well hopefully that is the end of the story. The silicon is curing and we'll use the shower tomorrow and see how we go. But as far as I can tell this should be leak free now. FYI total costs to fix this were: 
- Screen removal and refit including new seals, brackets, etc: $150
- Shower tile and mortar base removal: $0 (DIY)
- Waterproofing including installation of waterstop angle: $280
- Replacement tiles for shower base: $35
- Tiling of shower base and bottom row of wall tiles: $540 
So that's a grand total of $1005. I think not bad all considered!

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## Oldsaltoz

Looks like a job well done, perhaps this will convince others to install angles rather hobs as well. 
Well done and good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

Well, the rotten thing still seeps water into the grout outside the shower!  :Mad:  
I suspect this method of fitting the screen hasn't been entirely successful, as I can't see any other way it can possibly be leaking! 
Damn this thing to hell and back!

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## orbitor

Ah crap! This bathroom is leaking way worse than it ever has before. I think I've made a huge mistake. 
After my wife took a long shower, I noticed a big puddle of water. It seems to be bubbling out of the wall/floor join where I've highlighted in this pic:  
Sure enough, so much water it's gotten around the doorjamb and is seeping into the subfloor as in the pic. 
This just seems like too much water to be a bit seeping out of the screen from splashing. I think I must have missed something. Maybe the shower drain is where the leak comes from - that could explain why it only leaks while the shower is in use too. I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier - I was so damn sure I'd found the reason for the leak when the screen was removed to find no waterstop angle!!!@#!@$!@$!

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## Oldsaltoz

> Well, the rotten thing still seeps water into the grout outside the shower!  
> I suspect this method of fitting the screen hasn't been entirely successful, as I can't see any other way it can possibly be leaking! 
> Damn this thing to hell and back!

  Is the leak / damp grout near the wall? 
If the water is leaking under screen, can you put some tissues (they come in small rolls and are found near toilets) up against the outer edge of the shower, it should give you the pin point location of leak, just make sure it's in contact with the edge. 
The best way to seal a recessed groove based screen is to fill the slot rather than apply the sealant to the floor. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

the grout all over the bathroom floor is getting damp. Inside the shower enclosure is fine. And then there's the area where water is literally running out of the wall! 
I have a theory that the shower drain is backing up and water escaping. The drain has a LOT of mortar or grout or something in the bottom - I can only squeeze two fingers through the gap. 
Does it sound feasible that the shower drain is backing up enough that water is coming up between the puddle flange and the drain? I'll post some pics and more info tomorrow when I can think straight - my wife just had a baby at 3 this morning and I'm pretty out of it!

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## Oldsaltoz

> the grout all over the bathroom floor is getting damp. Inside the shower enclosure is fine. And then there's the area where water is literally running out of the wall! 
> I have a theory that the shower drain is backing up and water escaping. The drain has a LOT of mortar or grout or something in the bottom - I can only squeeze two fingers through the gap. 
> Does it sound feasible that the shower drain is backing up enough that water is coming up between the puddle flange and the drain? I'll post some pics and more info tomorrow when I can think straight - my wife just had a baby at 3 this morning and I'm pretty out of it!

  If you have water goming out of the wall there is no way it's from a blocked or leaking drain. This could be leaking plumbing though. 
Remove the shower shower and put a plug on the wall spigot, turn both taps on full, if you see any moisture it will be leak in plumbing as no water will enter the shower. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## heavytrevy

Def leaking plumbing.
surely u performed a presure/leak test or used a moisture meter before pulling the bathroom apart. 
Thats a lot of water !

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## orbitor

> Def leaking plumbing.
> surely u performed a presure/leak test or used a moisture meter before pulling the bathroom apart.

  nope! good move hey. No leaking ever happens unless the shower is in use. And pulling the screen out revealed no waterstop. It certainly did leak from the screen before. It just looks like it's probably not the only problem....Note that I cannot find any water damage anywhere other than the little bit at that doorjamb. And this shower is on the 2nd floor above a garage, so I would certainly notice water staining on the garage ceiling if the water was coming through somewhere! 
If it's leaking plumbing, it can only be between the tap and the shower rose, right? Otherwise it would leak all the time? 
Can I get a plug for the shower head from bunnings? Standard size?

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## heavytrevy

Either a brass 1/2 inch cap or a plastic test plug (easier)

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## Oldsaltoz

> nope! good move hey. No leaking ever happens unless the shower is in use. And pulling the screen out revealed no waterstop. It certainly did leak from the screen before. It just looks like it's probably not the only problem....Note that I cannot find any water damage anywhere other than the little bit at that doorjamb. And this shower is on the 2nd floor above a garage, so I would certainly notice water staining on the garage ceiling if the water was coming through somewhere! 
> If it's leaking plumbing, it can only be between the tap and the shower rose, right? Otherwise it would leak all the time? 
> Can I get a plug for the shower head from bunnings? Standard size?

  
(Quote) No leaking ever happens unless the shower is in use. And pulling the screen out revealed no waterstop. 
I take this was how you found things before the shower was fixed. 
(Quote) Note that I cannot find any water damage anywhere other than the little bit at that door jamb. 
This is due to water travelling under the tiles, 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

> I take this was how you found things before the shower was fixed.

  Yes and no, the leaking is actually worse now. Perhaps a byproduct of disturbing the area. There was a lot of leaking from the screen before and that appears to be fixed though. 
Should get a chance to do some testing in a couple of days. Bit preoccupied with a 3 day old baby right now  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Not meaning to hijack the thread but I'm going through this with a client now. I was called yesterday to have a look at some rotten timber at the base of a vanity unit. (Gave me shivers). Get there and the vanity is sitting on a MDF plinth 250 mm high, all installed after waterproofing but before tiling. The tiles had fallen off the plinth revealing soggy MDF. Cut a hole in it and had a look. I can see green waterproofing under the vanity. The mortar bed comes up to the MDF plinth. Stick my hand in the hole and the edge of the mortar bed/tiles are soaking wet. No leaks from the vanity - start looking elsewhere. Check out the shower - pathetic. Lots of mouldy silicone all around, inside and out, wet grout outside the shower. Go under the house, water leaking through the floorboards ( old Qlder) around the waste vicinity ( but not the waste itself) but rest of the floor looks dry. Conclusion is the water proofing is breached within the shower allowing one leak. The absence of water stops and bad tiling has allowed the shower water to get under the tiles and wick right across the floor to the edge of the mortar bed and into the MDF vanity plinth. I would say the mortar bed is soaked too. I have told the owner a total bathroom renno is the only way to go given the amount of water under the tiles, the age of the bathroom and the bad workmanship. Better to totally gut it and start new. There is a floor waste fitted as well but the floor outside the shower doesn't fall to it any way so its pointless and wouldn't help in this situation. Moral of the storey - with bathrooms, gutting and re doing is the only way to go IMO.

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## orbitor

I agree full strip and rebuild is probably easier, but certainly not on the wallet. I think this is salvageable yet.

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## ringtail

> I agree full strip and rebuild is probably easier, but certainly not on the wallet. I think this is salvageable yet.

  
Just depends on how much good time and money you want to throw at it until its fixed

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## orbitor

money = not much 
time = not real bothered, I have another bathroom 
mind you I don't have any time at the moment. Baby boy is 5 days old and life is hectic!

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## ringtail

Best of luck with it. Keep the updates coming when time permits. Congrats on the baby too :2thumbsup:

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## StrataStruggler

Just found this thread.  I have a first floor shower on sheeting.  A crack has appeared in the grout between tiles.  Though there is no evidence of any water leaking, would like to remedy this situation before leaking does happen.  
I have absolutely no idea who to call?  No knowledge or experience of bathrooms nor do I have any skills to handle any of this myself, unlike orbitor. So who do I call?  Can a tiler remove the tiles, then get a waterproofer in then have it retiled?

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## orbitor

stratastruggler: a tiler will be able to simply regrout for you, and diagnose if there are other issues. Otherwise you really can redo the grout yourself, it's so easy. You just buy a grout scraper and some new grout from the hardware. Scrape the cracked stuff out, mix up the new grout with some water till it's like a paste, and then work it into the area you scraped out. Then wipe off the extra with a sponge. 
Update on my shower: 
I've ruled out the drain as the cause by running lots of water down, and then secondly by blocking the drain at the bend and filling the whole shower area with water up to about 3mm depth (ie. slightly less than the waterstop angle height). No leaks. 
So what remains is a plumbing leak. I had a brain wave and realised we almost always use the left shower rose in this double shower. So we've been taking showers using just the right rose and no leaks! So I'm pretty confident that the leak is narrowed down to either the left shower rose, or the mixer tap for it, or somewhere in the plumbing between the two (less likely I would think). 
I'm thinking of just getting a plumber out to figure it out and fix from here. I can't work out how to remove the shower head or the mixer tap, and can't think how I'd find a leak between the two anyway. Thoughts?

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## JB1

Can you access the plasterboard behind the left shower rose? 
If so cut it out and have a look.  
Hope it's not brick.

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## orbitor

> Can you access the plasterboard behind the left shower rose? 
> If so cut it out and have a look.  
> Hope it's not brick.

  It's on an exterior wall, but the place is metal cladding, so I can remove the cladding to have a look. But I think the leak must be between waterproofing (well, the wall sheeting) and the tiles, as there's no evidence of leaking outside of the waterproof area.

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## StrataStruggler

The "grout" between my tiles in the shower recess and indeed the whole bathroom floor is not white grout.  It looks like and is as hard as concrete.  You can't scrape it out.

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## Oldsaltoz

> The "grout" between my tiles in the shower recess and indeed the whole bathroom floor is not white grout.  It looks like and is as hard as concrete.  You can't scrape it out.

  Pick up a grout removal tool, under $10, give it a go with that.

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## StrataStruggler

Just tried a screw driver on the grout on the wall and the floor.  The wall grout is powdery when you scrape at it.  The grout on the floor doesn't come away, do get a bit of grit and it has taken the corners off the screwdriver.

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## Oldsaltoz

> Just tried a screw driver on the grout on the wall and the floor.  The wall grout is powdery when you scrape at it.  The grout on the floor doesn't come away, do get a bit of grit and it has taken the corners off the screwdriver.

  A srewdriver is way too soft to remove grout unless you a lot of time to kill. 
Get hold of a grout remover, Bunnings have them. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

OK, I thought I'd narrowed this down to the left shower rose/mixer, but alas, no. Tonight the leaking reoccurred. I noticed dampness in the wall/floor join to the right side of the shower, the closest side to where the right shower is that we've been using. No leaking observed around the corners where the left shower is. So this suggests either both the shower heads are leaking, or the screen is still directing water below the tiles somehow. grrrr  :Mad:  
I still think the drain is ruled out as the culprit though, since I would think the leak would be seen on both sides if it was the cause. 
To test whether the plumbing or the screen is causing the leaking, I'm going to put the removable shower head directly over the drain and run the shower for a good while... 
The saga continues...

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## ringtail

Gut it. Its the only way

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## orbitor

> Gut it. Its the only way

  I'm not *quite* there yet. By the way, one of the main reasons I didn't gut it in the first place was that the floor and wall tiles are no longer available...

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## ringtail

> I'm not *quite* there yet. By the way, one of the main reasons I didn't gut it in the first place was that the floor and wall tiles are no longer available...

  
But if you gut it, it doesnt matter, just go for something different. You will chase your tail on this till the cows come home and every day more damage is been done to other parts of the house by the water

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## StrataStruggler

If I go ahead and scrape out this cracked grout on the shower recess floor, what signs would there be if there has been water leaking through the crack?  There are none of the obvious signs of water leaking such as no water or water marks or stains on the ceiling below shower, no water in the wardrobe on the other side of the shower and no mould or damp on the floor or walls around the shower in the bathroom. 
Could it be possible that though the grout is cracked that no water has leaked through?  Could I be that lucky?  Could I just regrout and hope for the best if there are no indications of water damage?  Or should I get the whole floor done to be on the safe side?

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## Oldsaltoz

> If I go ahead and scrape out this cracked grout on the shower recess floor, what signs would there be if there has been water leaking through the crack?  There are none of the obvious signs of water leaking such as no water or water marks or stains on the ceiling below shower, no water in the wardrobe on the other side of the shower and no mould or damp on the floor or walls around the shower in the bathroom. 
> Could it be possible that though the grout is cracked that no water has leaked through?  Could I be that lucky?  Could I just regrout and hope for the best if there are no indications of water damage?  Or should I get the whole floor done to be on the safe side?

  From what you have described, all you have is some cracked grout and no other problem. For what it's worth, grout will not stop water getting into the base of the shower and under the tiles, this is normal and so don't give it another thought. 
Just go ahead and regrout the failed area and have a great day. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## orbitor

hooray - I've finally found the last problem. A failed seal around the mixer tap:   
That photo is rotated; the grout line on the left is vertical above the mixer tap, and water was running down the grout line, behind the plate of the mixer, and into the wall. What should I use to seal this up and how do I make sure I get a good trouble-free seal? 
Oh, and I know this is the final problem as I put some plastic sheet over the mixer tapes to prevent any water splashes from getting behind, and haven't had a leak in 4 weeks of use.

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## melton2

clean the gap very well.. get rid of all the soap scum and dirt etc... 
and then simply seal it up with a mould resistant silicone. 
wait for it to dry before you turn on the water.

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## orbitor

> clean the gap very well.. get rid of all the soap scum and dirt etc... 
> and then simply seal it up with a mould resistant silicone. 
> wait for it to dry before you turn on the water.

   Thanks, did that and sealed it up on the weekend. Haven't used it yet but I'm confident we got a good seal.

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