# Forum Home Renovation Roofing  Removing a load bearing wall - options?

## chrisp

I would value some insights and options for removing a load bearing internal wall in a c.1951 house. 
Rest assured that I intend to obtain all the required approvals and permits for this work.  However, I'd appreciate the forums views on my options beforehand. 
The wall in question is supporting a strut to an underpurlin as well as the hanging beams from two adjoining rooms. 
This photo show the strut in question.  It is resting on the top plate of the wall I'd like to remove.  The wall to be removed runs parallel to the ceiling joists.   
This photo shows the hanging beams.  Two separate beams have been used (but they have considerable overlap).   
While I could beam the wall under the top plate, I'd prefer to place the beam in the roof space to make the new room to have a continuous ceiling. 
What are my options?  Is it a matter of placing a suitable beam above the existing top plate with suitable props at each end.  Then attaching the strut to the top of the new beam, and affixing the hanging beams to the new beam (say, with joist hangers)? 
Thanks in advance for your replies.

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## Bedford

> Is it a matter of placing a suitable beam above the existing top plate with suitable props at each end.  Then attaching the strut to the top of the new beam, and affixing the hanging beams to the new beam  (say, with joist hangers)?

   

> Rest assured that I intend to obtain all the required approvals and  permits for this work.

  ...... :Biggrin:   :Wink:  
That's basically how I would do it, but I think you would have to cut the existing hanging beams to butt into the new beam, rather than hanging them off the new beam. 
In order to hang the existing hanging beam, (from the new beam) it may put the new beam too high and in such a position that it would hit the tiles before it extended far enough to be supported by the external wall. Clear as mud. 
What is the span of the proposed opening? :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Agree. Prop the ceiling joists, cut the existing hanging beam/s and butt into the new beam. With the strut put a block on the beam to stop the strut from sliding and notch the end of the strut to suit.

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## billyj_86

ive done a few of these lately, how we do it is prop the ceiling joist either side of the wall to the floor. then put a temporary strut from the under purlin to one of the proped ceiling joists and remove the strut that is in the way. cut hanging beams out so you can slip the new beam through, insert a new strut from under purlin to top of new beam, attach the hangers to the beam with joist hangers, remove props between celing joist and floor. then just carefully remove the wall

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## chrisp

Thanks for the replies so far. 
I noticed on another web page that it suggests/states that a strutting beam can't/shouldn't be used as a hanging beam as well. 
The reason given was that varying roof loads (from varying wind etc.) will transfer a varying load to the strutting beam.  Therefore, to prevent possible cracking of the ceiling, the strut load should be transferred to the walls (via the strutting beam sitting proud of the ceiling) and not coupled to the ceiling support. 
Is this something to be concerned about?

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## chrisp

> That's basically how I would do it, but I think you would have to cut the existing hanging beams to butt into the new beam, rather than hanging them off the new beam.

  Thanks Bedford.  I was think of abutting the hanging beams to the sides of  the new beam.  Perhaps I don't word my question too clearly.  :Smilie:     

> What is the span of the proposed opening?

  The opening (length of wall to be removed) is about 4150mm between top plates.  The length of the hanging beams are 3030mm and 3360mm between top plates.

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## ringtail

In every single old house that I have worked on, mine included, the hanging beams are strutting beams aswell. And while some have struts going to the top plates of walls, all have had at least half of the struts going to a combination beam. This is how they did it back in the day. Problem is, they never gave any clearance between the ceiling joists and the beam. So, this poor ( undersized) beam was trying to hold up the ceiling load and take projected roof load aswell, normally with a mega heavy tiled roof. End result is ceiling deflection. A combined hanging / strutting beam is something you wont see much of these days but if the size of the beam is correct you will get away with it no probs. Consult your engineer.

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## Bedford

> Perhaps I don't word my question too clearly.

  That's fine, my answers aren't much chop at this time of the day, i'll get back to you tomorrow! :Biggrin:  :Smilie:

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## mijati

It may be worth considering the use of a cable strutt to eliminate the strutt load altogether...
Good luck with it.

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## chrisp

> That's fine, my answers aren't much chop at this time of the day, i'll get back to you tomorrow!

  Your answers seem perfectly fine and clear.  I'm pleased to see three different respondents essentially give the same opinion.  Thanks Bedford, Ringtail and billyj. 
If Bloss agrees too, then I'm home and hosed.  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Where is the master ? this seems right up his ally lol

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## Bedford

Just re looking at that first pic, where the strut that you want to support is located at the under purlin, there would be minimal weight being transferred down as it is so close to the end of the purlin. Bedtime for bedford. :Smilie:

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## billyj_86

> It may be worth considering the use of a cable strutt to eliminate the strutt load altogether...
> Good luck with it.

    if you go down this path you must prop the ridge inline with the cables

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## Bedford

Chris, I got that page from Glamex laminated beams scanned, but I think it's unnecessary now from what you've calculated, it still wouldn't hurt to run your figures past them if you want reassurance. 
The hand written bits were for one I used previously.  :Smilie:

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## chrisp

Here is a bit of an update on the wall removal.  I've taken some photos so that others might be able to see what is involved in the process. 
The location of the wall the be removed is:  
It can be seem (for those how have an eye for this type of thing) is that the wall is supporting a strut (to the roof) and two hanging beams - one from each adjoining room. 
The type of beam required in this instance is a "counter-strutting beam".  A counter beam is used to support the hanging beams, and strutting beam is used to support the strut.  In this case, the two functions are combined into the one beam. 
First job I did was to check the top plates on the end walls to see where exactly to place the beam.  The outside wall is easiest inspected from outside by removing a few roof tiles:  
What I noticed was that there had been some other modifications to this building in the past and the top-plate had been checked on both sides:  
I has intended to place the beam directly over the wall, but having inspected the top plate, I figured it is better off to the left side of the wall instead. 
Back in the roof, this is the where the wall is:  
After removing the insulation, the top plate of the wall can be seen:  
There is a ceiling joist where I want to place the beam.  It is actually doing nothing at all in this instance:  
I cut a nail at the hanging beam and one or two at each end and the joist was free.  It is shown here moved aside:  
It was removed completely a little later in the process (not shown). 
The beam is a lamination of two beams.  These were cut to size and shape outside:  
[BTW, I've made an error here - the taper should be pointer, but it will be fixed up later.] 
Having the beam as an lamination certainly made it easier to lift and thread the beam in to the roof space.  
The hanging beams were marked up for cutting (and revised!):   *IMPORTANT: but not shown, the ceilings had Acro props placed under the hanging beams to support the ceiling load at this stage.* 
The hanging beams are cut:  
What may not be obvious is that the fact I've placed the beam to one side of the wall means I can leave the strut in place for now - this makes the 'propping' much easier. 
The beams where test fitted - too tight at the tile batten.  (this is when I found my error with the taper).  As a temporary fix I cut the taper with a jig-saw:  
I removed the beams and re-cut them with a circular saw in the roof space (not highly recommended!)  
The re-cut beam is now back in place and it is all looking good:  
The end on the inside wall needs to be propped up to ensure that the beam clears the ceiling.  A 50mm thick packer is placed under the beam and fixed in place:  
The beams where laminated using type-17 bugle heads and the beam braced:  
A jack was placed under the underpurlin and the load removed from the strut. 
It came to a bit of a surprise to find that the end of the strut floated free.  It was never nailed to the wall plate!  (note: no nails or nail holes!)  The only thing holding it to the wall plate was the metal electrical conduct that pinned it in place.  
The strut was removed and trimmed to size to be able to sit on the new beam.  The strut was blocked in place this time:  
more later...

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## Bloss

Ah, a bit late, but I'd do what you are doing.  :Biggrin:  Taken on a new job and flat chat so not as much time on here. Right now in a hotel room in Europe! Will be here for a month so erratic contributions too. I am getting lazy in my dotage so I might have bunged in a steel beam and be done with it, but I still luv me timber!

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