# Forum Home Renovation Kitchens  Bunnings flatpack kitchens.... any good ?

## renog

Bunnings have the "Kaboodle" range of kitchen cabinetry. 
Has anyone used these and can comment on the quality of the product? 
Do they look classy or cheap and nasty?
If they look cheap can they be made to look classy (say with high quality doors or bench tops)? 
Or can anyone recommend a kitchen/laundry flat pack supplier in the Mackay QLD region?

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## SilentButDeadly

Doors and bench tops can hide a multitude of evils if the kitchen fits and is installed correctly. If you can't make a Kaboodle fit then don't pretend you can hide it. 
On their own, there's not a lot wrong with the quality of the Bunnings flattie...just don't stoop for their cappuccino!

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## goldie1

I have installed a few. The quality is reasonable but certainly a long way from top quality.  
Try Tom Armstrong who contributes to this forum   Flat Pack Kitchens

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## phild01

I think you will get a better quality from a local flatpack supplier.

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## r3nov8or

Forum member Eden installs them. Hopefully he'll be around soon, or PM him.

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## sol381

My offsider used to work at bunnings and has installed a few.. he doesnt think they are bad but i think  they are pretty average.. my cabinetmaker has had to fix a few of these that people have installed and he hates them.. he told me the melamine boards they use are inferior chinese made and the glue is almost toxic... the drawer  runners are terrible..they dont slide well at all..you would be surprised how much a local cabinetmaker will charge.. pretty much the same or less than kaboodle ..they will be able to make oddsize cupboards so they fit neatly in between walls and most use blum runners and hinges..ive seen so many dramas with not only kaboodle but ikea kitchens.

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## Snipper

As for the kaboodle carcass, they go together well and have solid 16mm backs which is a must I reckon.  The board is definately inferior to the polytec board I buy.  How it will last is an unknown.  All cabinet hardware is very basic and bottom end.  They have got a market but not cheap.  A comparable flatpak supplied by a cabbie would probably cost less but wont be doweled and pre drilled.

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## David.Elliott

I've done about 6 Masters ones so far. Quite good quality Haefele hardware. I quite like them. I do add additional screws though.  
The Flatpacks (I understand) are cut and packaged in Mt Gambier at a sheltered workshop environment from Aussie made boards. Haefele buy and sell to Masters.   
I'm a bit lucky in that I have a panel saw, so I buy the next size up and trim to suit odd sizes. 
Here in the West it seems cabbies are looking to retire after the next job.  The Kitchen I'm currently working on was quoted 19,000 and 22,000. Plus appliances. 
It's pretty much a 4m square. The Masters cabinets came to $1400.00 odd. 
I've made ~12m of swamp mahogany benchtops. Still sanding though...time it's hard to charge for. 
From these we've spun the island 90 degrees and added extra length...750's not enough...                 
I reckon on having it completed for under $14,000 including 5500 in appliances.

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## METRIX

Have installed a few Kaboodle kitchens for others, the quality is ok but not fantastic, they go together easily and you can take back anything to swap which is a bonus.
I use a specialist kitchen cabinet maker to supply my stuff, he cuts them and pre drills the basic holes, and flatpacks them. I need to do the rest of the holes onsite, he uses Australian Made melamine which contains no Toxic stuff, unlike the Chinese stuff, it's full of toxins. 
Downsides of Kaboodle. 
Colour range is limited.
Mostly thermoformed doors which I don't like (I prefer poly doors)
Their hinges and runners are of low quality
Their hinges have non standard mounting plates so you cannot exchange them for standard Blum etc, as they don't fit, if you want to upgrade to soft close doors you have to buy the KABOODLE versions supplied by Hettich, which are good quality but cost a fortune and have that non standard mounting plate.
 Cabinet sizes limited, no custom sizes available
Can be expensive, but you can walk in today pick up most of it, and have a kitchen tomorrow 
They do have a solid back, unlike the IKEA junk which has a 3mm rubbish back panel, IKEA are also non standard height 700mm VS Standard 720mm, so you cannot use their doors or other doors on their stuff, subtle changes from these manufacturers forces you to buy everything from them.

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## renog

I've just visited both Masters and Bunnings to look at their flat pack kitchen range. It seems to me the Masters product is better all round - hinges, shelf supports, door appearance. I haven't costed either yet but I'll be starting with Masters when it comes to doing my next kitchen. Then I'll contact Flat Pack Kitchens as a final comparison. (I'd expect Flat Pack Kitchens would win out but we'll have to wait and see).

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## r3nov8or

Things have changed in 13 years, but I got 3 quotes for our kitchen, and to my surprise the 'flat pack' option (called 'ready cut' or something) cost more than the 2 fully installed companies.

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## METRIX

> Things have changed in 13 years, but I got 3 quotes for our kitchen, and to my surprise the 'flat pack' option (called 'ready cut' or something) cost more than the 2 fully installed companies.

  Yes, things have changed a lot in 13 years, below are some of the major events of 2003. 
Apple opens the iTunes store April 28, 2003. 
Other computer events in 2003 
The space shuttle Columbia explodes fifteen minutes before it is scheduled to land on February 1, 2003, resulting in the death of all seven crew members. 
A bushfire kills 4 people and destroys more than 500 homes in Canberra, Australia  Jan 18th  
Belgium legally recognizes same-sex marriage  Jan 30th 
An estimated 6-11 million people around the world take to the streets to protest against war with Iraq Feb 15th 
Supreme court rules that sex offenders information and pictures can be posted online on March 3, 2003. 
VIA introduces the Nano-ITX motherboard form factor in March 2003. 
SCO files a $1 billion USD lawsuit against IBM March 6, 2003 for allegedly devaluing its version of UNIX by contributing its intellectual property to the codebase of Linux. 
The Human Genome Project is completed with 99% of the human genome sequenced to an accuracy of 99.99%  Apr 14th 
The first computer is infected with the Spybot worm on April 16, 2003.  
Beijing closes all schools for two weeks because of the SARS virus  Apr 23rd 
The H.264 standard is completed in May 2003.  
XDR DRAM begins being sold. 
DDR2 SDRAM begins being sold. 
Internet site LinkedIn launches May 5, 2003. 
The Mozilla Foundation is officially formed on July 15, 2003. 
The Internet VoIP service Skype goes public August 29, 2003. 
On September 8, 2003 The RIAA begins to sue individual sharers of copyrighted mp3 files. 
Apple adds iTunes support for Microsoft Windows computers October 17, 2003 
Enhanced Versatile Disc (EVD) standard is announced on November 18, 2003 as a planned replacement for DVD. 
Intel Pentium M is introduced in March. 
AMD releases its first 64-bit processor, the Athlon 64. 
Microsoft Windows XP 64-Bit edition (Version 2003) for Itanium 2 systems is released on March 28, 2003. 
Microsoft Windows Server 2003 is released March 28, 2003. 
AMD releases the first single-core Opteron processors, with speeds of 1.4 GHz to 2.4 GHz and 1024 KB L2 cache, on April 22, 2003. 
Microsoft introduces Windows Mobile 2003 on June 23, 2003 
The Safari Internet browser is released June 30, 2003. 
Valve introduces Steam September 12, 2003. 
AMD releases the first Athlon 64 processor, the 3200+ (2.0 GHz, 1024 KB L2 cache), and the first Athlon 64 FX processor, the FX-51 (2.2 GHz, 1024 KB L2 cache), on September 23, 2003. 
Intel announces the new BTX form factor. 
Android is founded by Andy Rubin in October 2003.

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## r3nov8or

@@@@ you must be bored... 
Your signature test is still working.

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## plum

> Yes, things have changed a lot in 13 years, below are some of the major events of 2003. 
> Apple opens the iTunes store April 28, 2003. 
> Other computer events in 2003 
> The space shuttle Columbia explodes fifteen minutes before it is scheduled to land on February 1, 2003, resulting in the death of all seven crew members. 
> A bushfire kills 4 people and destroys more than 500 homes in Canberra, Australia  Jan 18th  
> Belgium legally recognizes same-sex marriage  Jan 30th 
> An estimated 6-11 million people around the world take to the streets to protest against war with Iraq Feb 15th 
> Supreme court rules that sex offenders information and pictures can be posted online on March 3, 2003. 
> VIA introduces the Nano-ITX motherboard form factor in March 2003. 
> ...

  Nathan Buckley joint winner of Brownlow medal.........

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## METRIX

> @@@@ you must be bored... 
> Your signature test is still working.

  Not really, its quite easy, just type in major event of whatever year you want, amazing what comes up.

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## Snipper

> Things have changed in 13 years, but I got 3 quotes for our kitchen, and to my surprise the 'flat pack' option (called 'ready cut' or something) cost more than the 2 fully installed companies.

  
I think the most important thing is to make sure all companies are quoting on the exact same product .  Say you specify blum drawers, make sure you provide details.  One cabbie quotes for blum antaro with glass sides ($100)  Another is using the blum metabox. ($15) and the third uses a basic side/bottom mount runner, partial extension with out soft close. ($5)  Example only but I suppose it applies to any quote.  Make sure there are details on the products you want quoted on your job other than stone benchtops, 2pac doors etc. You pay for quality hardware.  Flat packs can end up costing more and are usually of a lower quality.

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## r3nov8or

If a company quotes high end hardware when it isn't requested/specified it is lucky to still be in business. They would do much better to quote low, get the job and then discuss other options with the consumer.  
In my case I fully believe the flat pack company was playing on the perception that "it's flat pack, it must be the cheapest if I need to do all the build and install"

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> I think the most important thing is to make sure all companies are quoting on the exact same product .  Say you specify blum drawers, make sure you provide details.  One cabbie quotes for blum antaro with glass sides ($100)  Another is using the blum metabox. ($15) and the third uses a basic side/bottom mount runner, partial extension with out soft close. ($5)  Example only but I suppose it applies to any quote.  Make sure there are details on the products you want quoted on your job other than stone benchtops, 2pac doors etc. You pay for quality hardware.  Flat packs can end up costing more and are usually of a lower quality.

  I totally agree! 
So many customers just get a quote without actually knowing what has been included. Your far better off giving the kitchen company or cabinet maker a list of exactly what you want quoted so you can compare apples with apples!

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## r3nov8or

> I totally agree! 
> So many customers just get a quote without actually knowing what has been included. Your far better off giving the kitchen company or cabinet maker a list of exactly what you want quoted so you can compare apples with apples!

  You're assuming the average customer knows *exactly* what is available and the price points before you quote.

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## David.Elliott

What he Said

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## Snipper

> You're assuming the average customer knows *exactly* what is available and the price points before you quote.

  When somebody is spending that sort of money I would give the customer some literature on the suggested products.  I would also encourage them to do their own research and if they get a quote that is a lot cheaper to ask the same questions.

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## r3nov8or

> When somebody is spending that sort of money I would give the customer some literature on the suggested products.

   That would be entirely sensible, but it seems sometimes that quoting is treated as an unrewarding "chore" and the quicker the company can get it over with the better. "Look, we are really busy, that's the quote"   

> I  would also encourage them to do their own research and if they get a  quote that is a lot cheaper to ask the same questions.

   Sure thing, and research these days is a lot easier than it used to be. But there are still a lot options that for the average consumer can get confusing. And there's also the case where a given company says "we doesn't use that product, we use this..." which throws a spanner in the research you've done. I'm not just talking about kitchens. It a tough world out there  :Smilie:

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## Snipper

yep agree

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> You're assuming the average customer knows *exactly* what is available and the price points before you quote.

  When I do my quotes I go through with the customer and give them all the options explaining the pros and cons. I then put a quote together from there.  
If I am quoting Antaro glass sided drawer(as the customer asked) why would they then have the next company quote base model hardware?? 
I am just saying as a customer you are better to have the same spec quoted from all companys. This allows you to compare properly!! 
Also with the thing your sitting in front of now its not that hard to do a bit of research before getting the quotes. People that just go into kitchens blind can end up being taken for a ride if they are not careful.

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## r3nov8or

I agree, but I've mentioned reasons why sometimes it's not that easy

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> I agree, but I've mentioned reasons why sometimes it's not that easy

  Its easy if the customer is willing to actually invest a little time doing some research before getting quotes. 
Most people will research cars first why not kitchens!

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## r3nov8or

Again, I agree

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## commodorenut

They have to live with a kitchen every single day, and for far longer than a lot of people keep a car. 
Makes sense to do proper research.  But then a lot of the community no longer have common sense....

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> They have to live with a kitchen every single day, and for far longer than a lot of people keep a car. 
> Makes sense to do proper research.  But then a lot of the community no longer have common sense....

  
Exactly!

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## Eden

To answer renog,s question. 
The Kaboodle kitchens are fine (I install lots of brands not just Kaboodle) 
If you want vinyl wrap ( thermo formed ) stick to white or beige only as these are made in China and in 10 years i have not seen 1 door/panel peel back at the edges as they have cheap labour in China and therefore prep the doors better
All the other colours in vinyl wrap that they do are done in Australia as a "special order through bunnings" and I have seen (and have photos) doors straight off the delivery truck peeled back in the packaging and 75% of that order was peeling or had shrunk. (transported via semi trailer as a top load meaning next to the hot roof during Australian summer, Dumb! ) 
The range of colours and doors/benchtops is good and they even have the "paint yourself melamine" for the budget minded right up to a few that look pretty snazzy. 
The biggest fault they have is the plastic lug/inserts that they use to screw the hinges onto are poorly manufactured and not inserted fully into the hole before the excess is trimmed off. They have added spare plastic luggs to the hinge packs now rather than address the issue at the manufacturing stage
I use a pack of white wall plugs to replace the crappy ones, insert a screw into it and seat it with a turn of the screw then pull the lug out using pliers/claw hammer or your hand to pull on it. throw it in the bin and tap a white wall plug into the hole and trim excess off with a chisel/scraper or knife. 
The hinges ( DTC brand) are fine in my opinion they rarely fail as with most brands I have used and I actually prefer them to some of the other brands that I use as the base plates that clip on and off the hinges have 4 holes on the Kaboodle ( DTC ones) allowing adjustment first, then at the end of the job when all is perfect and straight/level you can put the other 2 screws in and the hinges wont go anywhere even with heaps of use. 
The gap between the benchtop and base of wall cabs is 580mm if using 38mm benchtops. therefore the rangehood cabinet is shorter allowing a retractable 40mm fascia to go in the rangehood cabinet and still be higher than the base of the wall cabs "keeping the gap between stove top and rangehood legal" 
So if you decide to use a standard 720mm high 600mm wide cabinet as a R/H cabinet and shove some flush inserted rangehood into the base of this cabinet you will only have at the best a 580mm gap and less if using a raised gas hob not a flat electric plate and this is "not legal"  
Another thing to be wary of is formaldehyde in the Chinese board/benchtops/kickers etc...  Use a dust mask for all cutting!!! and have a shower after your done for the day as it will irritate some people in 1 day 
Do your own plan and get others to check it for you (post it up here as all the members here are fantastic)
don't rely on bunnings in-home services to come out and charge $99 and do a good plan for you. Nearly every plan they do that I see has errors on it when it comes to install time so I give the client their $99 back and redo the plan myself (correctly)for free as it should be. 
the front rail on the carcass you use for the sink and the front rail in the oven carcass should only have the front two screws inserted and the adges glued with external pva glue. If those two carcasses have the back screws inserted you will hit them when cutting out the sink and cooktop. 
Insert drawer runners for all drawer carcases and hinges for the small cabinets as you assemble the carcases as you will curse getting a screwdriver into a 150/200mm wide carcass as with getting into the drawer carcass to align holes visually for the runners. 
The screws are fairly average so a pack of no2 phillips head drive bits will be the go and magnetise the bits as you go with a magnet to help retain sanity. 
end panels and oven side panels when between carcases can be done with "kicker halved" and kept at 720mm so as to keep kickers in long lengths looking better.   
In summary  
all the flatpacked brands have pros and cons and a classy kitchen can made with any of them ( pretty much all of them anyhow ) 
I personally won't install Ikea as the 3mm mdf back is a safety issue in my eyes ( that is my personal opinion ) and I dont run $20 million public liability insurance to look for a claim and have never claimed and never want to  :Smilie:  
I hope that is of some help   
cheers Eden

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## phild01

Was in the Masters Northmead store today and while there I had a quick look at their kitchens.  A lot of the stuff they have is local and high quality.  The melamine core looked the goods too. Was told that the supply included a Castle Hill guy (pretty sure I know who it is). The selection choice is vast and they have a dedicated design team on hand to assist.  Was obvious Masters has it all over Bunnings for kitchens.....might be worth checking them out!

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## Eden

just as a foot note, 
 Do talk to Tom (kitchens in a box) and give him some exact measurements and a photo or 3, note- drainage points/powerpoints/gas outlet. solid/clad walls/windows/existing tap outlets and anything extra you can think of. 
draw a mud map also and some of your thoughts regarding your ideas for layout etc, 
take your time and soak in all the advice as most people that give free time and advice on forums do so because they actually care! 
in aversion to the peanuts "bunnings and the likes of" send out to do a $99 quote,  (and at 3 a day that is $1500.00/week plus commissions/sales bonuses) those that give free info usually care or are willing to waste some of their own short life to help others) 
best of luck!  
semi retired and happier!  
Eden  :Smilie:

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## METRIX

Speaking of the various hardware, installed a kitchen for client recently, they purchased these hinges from AROVA, I was impressed with these for the price, soft close and guaranteed for 50,000 operations, which comes to opening 10 times a day for 13 years.
The best thing was all adjustments were done via oval type grub screws, you simply put the hinge plate on and adjust everything on the hinge itself, including the height adjustment. 
One thing I really hate about most hinges is having to loosen the mounting plate screws and adjust the height manually via a slider,which can work lose over time and drop, these ones get screwed in once and that's it.  https://www.arova.com.au/kitchen-cab...t-close-hinges

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## phild01

> Speaking of the various hardware, installed a kitchen for client recently, they purchased these hinges from AROVA, I was impressed with these for the price, soft close and guaranteed for 50,000 operations, which comes to opening 10 times a day for 13 years.
> The best thing was all adjustments were done via oval type grub screws, you simply put the hinge plate on and adjust everything on the hinge itself, including the height adjustment. 
> One thing I really hate about most hinges is having to loosen the mounting plate screws and adjust the height manually via a slider,which can work lose over time and drop, these ones get screwed in once and that's it.  https://www.arova.com.au/kitchen-cab...t-close-hinges

  Beautie, mental note for upcoming hinges :Smilie:

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## Snipper

All decent hinge manufacturers make a cam adjustable block/hinge plate that gives about 5mm play (2.5mm up or down)  I personally like the blum in line block that you cant even see as its smaller than the actual hinge.  Height adjustment is done through the hole in the hinge body to access the cam adjustment on the block.  Using the 5mm expando plugs are heaps stronger than simply screwing blocks into the melamine as well.  Hey Metrix?  Did those arova hinges have a screw adjustment for winding the doors in and out (in/out from carcass, not for door margins) or a simple clamp screw to manually slide.  Maybe a simpler question is are they clip on?  Is the soft close a hydraulic ram set up?  If so I suggest you spend a bit more on blum Phil01  These ram set ups seem to play havoc on keeping the margins right.  They seem to push the door away from the hinge side when closing then slowly comes back to the set gap.

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> Speaking of the various hardware, installed a kitchen for client recently, they purchased these hinges from AROVA, I was impressed with these for the price, soft close and guaranteed for 50,000 operations, which comes to opening 10 times a day for 13 years.
> The best thing was all adjustments were done via oval type grub screws, you simply put the hinge plate on and adjust everything on the hinge itself, including the height adjustment. 
> One thing I really hate about most hinges is having to loosen the mounting plate screws and adjust the height manually via a slider,which can work lose over time and drop, these ones get screwed in once and that's it.  https://www.arova.com.au/kitchen-cab...t-close-hinges

   
Personally I wouldn't use anything other than Blum or Hettich hinges and runners!

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## sol381

indeed .. bunnings have their own hinges in store for over $10 and not sure what the quality is like.. Blum hinges are about as good as you can get and less than $4.. why would you buy anything else..

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> indeed .. bunnings have their own hinges in store for over $10 and not sure what the quality is like.. Blum hinges are about as good as you can get and less than $4.. why would you buy anything else..

  Totally agree!  
Assuming Bunnings hinge quality is quite low!

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## Eden

Assuming is what most people do!!!     The crappy DTC hinges are tested to 40,000 reps  have 4 securing holes and are metal cylinders not PLASTIC (check the so called good ones) on the self closers. (and dont use clip on soft closers)     
Buy one set before you bag the product. 
Personally Cunnings give me the shi_s these days. But like it or lump it the product as some other flat pack brands also do is give you value.  
Speak from experience and NOT assumption . 
Good luck folks.

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## METRIX

> Hey Metrix?  Did those arova hinges have a screw adjustment for winding the doors in and out (in/out from carcass, not for door margins) or a simple clamp screw to manually slide.  Maybe a simpler question is are they clip on?  Is the soft close a hydraulic ram set up?  If so I suggest you spend a bit more on blum Phil01  These ram set ups seem to play havoc on keeping the margins right.  They seem to push the door away from the hinge side when closing then slowly comes back to the set gap.

  Yes they did have screw adjustment for winding the doors in and out, not a mechanical slider type system that requires you to loosen a screw and mechanically move the door to a new position, (I don't like this system)
To answer your simple question, yes they were clip on, and a decent clip on as well, they seemed to slide right in, unlike the cheapy ones which the clip on is terrible, and doesn't have a positive lock feel. 
Yes it was a hydraulic ram system (metal), hidden inside the arm, so the size of the hinge was no bigger than a standard one, I did not have any problem lining any of the doors up, once adjusted they closed perfectly and where I had adjusted them, they did not push the door away at all.
As with anything like this, I would suggest you purchase a set, check the quality yourself and make your own decision, as I said these were purchased by a client, I installed the purchased kitchen, as part of other work I was doing there, and was suitably impressed with the hinges. 
Of course Austrian made Blum should always surpass other brands, my own kitchen, is using the Soft close Blum with the lock out feature. 
Speaking of which, the benchtops went in yesterday.

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## Snipper

The hafele hinge with built in ram soft close is crap.  That is why I ask how these other brands go with the same soft close system.  Trailed  a few on a laundry and very disappointed.  If you try to speed up the closing the door hits the other door until the soft close catches up.  Only then it pulls back into place.  I put this down to the crap piston ram soft close and sloppy block connection.  Blums blumotion hinge is a much better system.  It's incorporated into the cup section therefore does not interfere with its closing action or stress the block/mounting plate.  No issues if you push it shut, it'll go where it was meant to. 
Eden, who are you directing your post at?  I see nobody making assumptions here.

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## r3nov8or

I just realised that I've never looked what brand hinges are in my kitchen, but never had a problem in 13 years so just didn't take any notice. They are Blum.

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## METRIX

> The hafele hinge with built in ram soft close is crap.  That is why I ask how these other brands go with the same soft close system.  Trailed  a few on a laundry and very disappointed.  If you try to speed up the closing the door hits the other door until the soft close catches up.  Only then it pulls back into place.  I put this down to the crap piston ram soft close and sloppy block connection.  Blums blumotion hinge is a much better system.  It's incorporated into the cup section therefore does not interfere with its closing action or stress the block/mounting plate.  No issues if you push it shut, it'll go where it was meant to. 
> Eden, who are you directing your post at?  I see nobody making assumptions here.

  I think these were of different design, the owner did push one of the doors closed hard to mimick what her kids will probably do, and it didn't hit or have to wait for the soft close to catch up, maybe a design fault in the Hafelle, I have always preference Blum over Hafelle.

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## Godzilla73

The new Grass hinges are good, variable softclose adjustment, 16mm to 32mm door thickness with the 1 hinge, same drilling pattern as Blum, all hinges in the 110 degree range operate in the same opening arc unlike Blum. So if you have a narrow door that only needs 1 softclose hinge you can use a springless one to reduce the closing time (yes ppl whine about this) with Blum it's softclose or nothing.  
Just another option.

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## METRIX

> The new Grass hinges are good, variable softclose adjustment, 16mm to 32mm door thickness with the 1 hinge, same drilling pattern as Blum, all hinges in the 110 degree range operate in the same opening arc unlike Blum. So if you have a narrow door that only needs 1 softclose hinge you can use a springless one to reduce the closing time (yes ppl whine about this) with Blum it's softclose or nothing.  
> Just another option.

  Yes, had that problem with those 150mm doors, I just broke one of the soft close mechs, problem solved, with the new ones you can lock the mech out now.

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## Godzilla73

The other instance where being able to mix up hinge types is with touch catches or push to open. On tall doors with 5 hinges you need a few springless and with Blum you can't mix hinge types, turning off the softclose function does nothing you need to reduce the force holding the door closed slightly to aid the push to open feature everyone seems to be into at the moment.

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## Eden

> Totally agree!  
> Assuming Bunnings hinge quality is quite low!

  As above  :Smilie:   sorry Snipper I should have quoted but just assumed we all read all the posts. My fault!

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## METRIX

> The other instance where being able to mix up hinge types is with touch catches or push to open. On tall doors with 5 hinges you need a few springless and with Blum you can't mix hinge types, turning off the softclose function does nothing you need to reduce the force holding the door closed slightly to aid the push to open feature everyone seems to be into at the moment.

  Yes, sorry this is what I broke on the hinge, as could not get a springless type, the push to open had no guts to open the small doors.
I like push to open, but am afraid there will be permanent marks left on the door where you constantly push that part, especially vacuum formed,

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## Snipper

> As above   sorry Snipper I should have quoted but just assumed we all read all the posts. My fault!

  No worries mate,  I wondered what you were getting at but I see the relevance with your quoted post now which I'd read and was directly above yours but somehow managed to not see the connection.   :Doh:

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## Snipper

> The other instance where being able to mix up hinge types is with touch catches or push to open. On tall doors with 5 hinges you need a few springless and with Blum you can't mix hinge types, turning off the softclose function does nothing you need to reduce the force holding the door closed slightly to aid the push to open feature everyone seems to be into at the moment.

  You are obviously very experienced in the field and this is no way disputing your knowledge but just to add,   Blums tip on set up is pretty good imo.  Simply use the blum spring less hinges which are available in almost every configuration.  No need wasting money on blumotion blum hinges with push to open (tip on) as you can't have soft close and push to open together.  One or the other.  Blum tip on catches are the best I've seen and very easy and quick to fit.  Drill hole in carcass, insert.  You can even put them closer to the middle of the door so they fling it open even further.  Screw or stick metal plate to door. done. 
While I like the look of handle less kitchens, I personally prefer handles as like Metrix mentions,  dirty paws all over doors and drawer fronts.  Alright if you don't have younger kids I suppose.  I did recently do a job and used the blum antaro tip on drawers. Nice.  The bin was a blum antaro/wesco combo but as tip on was not strong enough to open bin drawers,  I used the electric servo drive opening system.  Extremely easy to fit and a slight push of the bin drawer sets of the servo drive motor hidden behind the bin and engages a simple lever to push open.  While it does not open the bin drawer fully, it's enough and I would definitely use the set up again regardless if using handles or not.  so user friendly and convenient.  You obviously need a power point but it's most practical to put the bin next to the sink cabinet which has a power point for dishwasher anyway. Just put in a double pp instead and drill hole to bin cabinet.

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## Godzilla73

> Simply use the blum spring less hinges which are available in almost every configuration.  No need wasting money on blumotion blum hinges with push to open (tip on) as you can't have soft close and push to open together.  One or the other.

  That's it though, people want both. With the Grass you can, not knocking Blum we go through 200 tip ons a month used in conjunction with Blum,Grass and Salice hinges.  
Soft closing push to open drawers can't come soon enough too, second half of the year apparently.

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## Snipper

> That's it though, people want both. With the Grass you can, not knocking Blum we go through 200 tip ons a month used in conjunction with Blum,Grass and Salice hinges.   *Soft closing push to open drawers can't come soon enough too, second half of the year apparently.*

  Seems funny that its taken this long as I cant imagine it being that hard to design for the modern engineer with computer technology.  Who are doing this, Grass? Can have the blum softclose drawer with the electric servo drive push to open.  $$$$   It would seem to be easier than a door from my limited knowledge.  With the Grass push to open and soft close door, how on earth does it soft close and depress the push to open catch like the blum system uses or is it all incorporated into the hinge? Very impressive if that's the case.

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## Godzilla73

It only closes to the catch then you have to push it as normal! I know it's a waste but they're paying. I kinda get it, with springless if you don't push it properly it just bounces off the catch at least a sprung hinge will hold it at the catch then push as normal. Like I said we supply what's been sold out of the showroom.  
We do a lot of work for religious groups who can't have any electricity on at certain times so that rules out any of the servo type set ups.  
 Blum are going to be first to market with softclose push to open followed by Grass

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## Pitto

> Personally I wouldn't use anything other than Blum or Hettich hinges and runners!

  
agree, I only use Blum Hardware,for the extra dollars, it give me piece of mind knowing it will hold its adjustment.  
I have used Ferrari hinges [previous commercial joinery workplace used to use them] and they have held up fine here at home, however they dont hold a light to anything Blum make. 
as for Bunnings / Masters / Stratco / Ikea / Etc. you get what you pay for.  But if you research a local kitchen company, many who run CNC equipment, you may even find they will be cheaper than them when it comes to supply. Its how I ended up doing kitchens over in Perth, My sister looked into an Ikea kitchen, and it was cheaper for me to use my local CNC machinist and freight it to Perth. 
The old style "Carcase Melamine Box" on full extension runners is the dead give away for a cheap kitchen. For my money, Blum Antaro is my starting point for a drawer system in any of my jobs. It makes using the kitchen, fun.

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## Pitto

> The new Grass hinges are good, variable softclose adjustment, 16mm to 32mm door thickness with the 1 hinge, same drilling pattern as Blum, all hinges in the 110 degree range operate in the same opening arc unlike Blum. So if you have a narrow door that only needs 1 softclose hinge you can use a springless one to reduce the closing time (yes ppl whine about this) with Blum it's softclose or nothing.  
> Just another option.

  Blum Softclose has a ratchet lock that allows you to control the softclose rate, so on a small fridge overhead door, you can lock out one of the softclose function on one of the hinges to speed up the closing time.  
Grass is up the for quality too, i would take Grass over Hettich or Hafele any day. I have a strong dislike with Hafele. The Hettich softclose hing has the piston hidden inside the mounting arm, and has a strange fixing plate, they never really worked the great. Salice make a pretty good quality hinge, Used them with Their bifold track system and they held up pretty well.

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## Godzilla73

Yep use the lock out feature all the time, it's more of an issue on narrow tray type cabinets and it still takes a while to shut. Like I said unfortunately people seem to only find a negative.

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## Snipper

> agree, I only use Blum Hardware,for the extra dollars, it give me piece of mind knowing it will hold its adjustment.  
> I have used Ferrari hinges [previous commercial joinery workplace used to use them] and they have held up fine here at home, however they dont hold a light to anything Blum make. 
> as for Bunnings / Masters / Stratco / Ikea / Etc. you get what you pay for.  But if you research a local kitchen company, many who run CNC equipment, you may even find they will be cheaper than them when it comes to supply. Its how I ended up doing kitchens over in Perth, My sister looked into an Ikea kitchen, and it was cheaper for me to use my local CNC machinist and freight it to Perth.  *The old style "Carcase Melamine Box"* on full extension runners is the dead give away for a cheap kitchen. For my money, Blum Antaro is my starting point for a drawer system in any of my jobs. It makes using the kitchen, fun.

  So a modern quality cabinet is something different?   Obviously not referring to the old style built on site face frame with 2 x 1 hw nailed on walls to support contact covered chipboard middle shelf and base.

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## Pitto

> So a modern quality cabinet is something different?   Obviously not referring to the old style built on site face frame with 2 x 1 hw nailed on walls to support contact covered chipboard middle shelf and base.

  Referring to the drawer type, not the carcase cabinet,  
This day and age, the use of a quality double walled metal sided drawer is paramount. Bunnings use a melamine box on full extension King style runners. Cheap and nasty. 
I don't know of anyone who does face frame construction for kitchens here in Australia. Just too labour intensive.

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## Snipper

> Referring to the drawer type, not the carcase cabinet,  
> This day and age, the use of a quality double walled metal sided drawer is paramount. Bunnings use a melamine box on full extension King style runners. Cheap and nasty. 
> I don't know of anyone who does face frame construction for kitchens here in Australia. Just too labour intensive.

  Sorry mate, I get you now.  I thought there was a new type of carcass around.  The yanks still love face frames and a veneered carcass,  just like imperial, too stubborn to change although it is slowly evolving. 
I agree on the double wall drawers.  Got a friend who got a new kitchen with a huge island bench with stone benchtops.   Was a new extension .  The company used a melamine box drawer with believe it or not those super basic partial extension runners and bloody piano hinges on the corner doors.  Was only about 7 years ago as well.  Anyway the cabbies screwed all the drawer fronts on and apparently were spot on.  Then the benchtop came.  This huge chunk of stone was probably 3m long by 1.3 wide. (double sided island)  
After the benchtop installation all drawer fronts needed adjusting due to the weight and settling of probably the floor.  Not sure but my friend told me they were back and forth for 3 weeks re-screwing them. When I seen it there were about 10 cover caps inside the drawer hiding all the older holes.  Bloody disgrace and at least with the metal drawers, you are able to adjust the fronts by turning a couple of screws if this were to happen. This company advertises itself as award winning  :Eek:  and the owner a certified kitchen designer what ever that means.  I really had to bite my tongue as much as I wanted to tell him how he'd been ripped.  Who puts stone benchtops on PVC edged melamine doors and crap hardware.

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## sol381

My cabinet maker said that blum are coming out with a soft close/push open drawer runner pretty soon.. we couldnt wait so i found these..they work great ..   King Slide   

> That's it though, people want both. With the Grass you can, not knocking Blum we go through 200 tip ons a month used in conjunction with Blum,Grass and Salice hinges.  
> Soft closing push to open drawers can't come soon enough too, second half of the year apparently.

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## Pitto

Check the pdf on the 1a88 runner, it requires you to pull the drawer out fully, which preloads the soft close action, then when you close the drawer, the soft close action engages at the end on its travel. still interesting but not the same action you get from a servo drive & softclose drawer combo

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## sol381

indeed, but a hell of a lot cheaper..you dont need to pull it out fully tho..just out  about 10cm .

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## Pitto

That sounds ok then.  And yes, servo drive is stupidly expensive for what it is

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## Snipper

The servo drive unit would finish runner up to the wheel as the best ever invention to benefit mankind. Those backbreaking days of opening a drawer had finally come to an end.  All that extra energy could be put to use on all those chores and spending quality time with family and friends.......And then the power goes off . :No: .... :Eek:  ..... :Shock: ...... :Yikes2:

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## LauraR

Eden, you seem to be a bit of a pro!! I have my eye on a kaboodle kitchen, do you fancy taking a look at installation?

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## Bros

> Eden, you seem to be a bit of a pro!! I have my eye on a kaboodle kitchen, do you fancy taking a look at installation?

  Send him PM

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## Eden

More than happy to have a look in a few weeks. Moving to normanville and semi retirement. Will still do the odd kitchen as I love doing them and go a bit stir crazy If I dont work for too long. PM me your details if you wish. Cheers Eden.

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## travelislife

Interesting discussion. We are just finalising full house renovation/building plans and have used the IKEA planners as our base plans to set standard width dimensions. Had a look through there the other day and like the finish on their kitchen stuff but it sounds like the non existent or thin backing isn't that great. Wasn't that impressed with the other cabinetry though, wardrobes, bathrooms, etc. One thing I am not 100% on is what is the finish on the Ikea Metod doors? Is it Vinyl wrap? The hardware on their draws seemed pretty good. 
We are looking at a fair bit of cabinetry for the whole house including 3800 long straight line kitchen, large island bench (2000 x 1100), walk in pantry, walk in wardrobe, 2 x built in robes, 1 x built in cupboard and laundry so I am definitely going to be getting some quotes done. Issue is before I go and get a couple of quotes is making it so the specification on finishes is tight so I get like for like with quotes, just so many options on finishes!

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## OBBob

> Interesting discussion. We are just finalising full house renovation/building plans and have used the IKEA planners as our base plans to set standard width dimensions. Had a look through there the other day and like the finish on their kitchen stuff but it sounds like the non existent or thin backing isn't that great. Wasn't that impressed with the other cabinetry though, wardrobes, bathrooms, etc. One thing I am not 100% on is what is the finish on the Ikea Metod doors? Is it Vinyl wrap? The hardware on their draws seemed pretty good. 
> We are looking at a fair bit of cabinetry for the whole house including 3800 long straight line kitchen, large island bench (2000 x 1100), walk in pantry, walk in wardrobe, 2 x built in robes, 1 x built in cupboard and laundry so I am definitely going to be getting some quotes done. Issue is before I go and get a couple of quotes is making it so the specification on finishes is tight so I get like for like with quotes, just so many options on finishes!

  
If you're semi-capable you really should look at what some of the smaller board cutting suppliers can do for you. Sent you a PM.

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## travelislife

> If you're semi-capable you really should look at what some of the smaller board cutting suppliers can do for you. Sent you a PM.

  Yeah I am keen to go through a mob who will work with me to pull all of it together in one order hopefully. We have just based around IKEA dimensions for internals as our base case back up but from reading around it seems local mobs with their own CNC are pretty competitive price wise.

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## OBBob

> Yeah I am keen to go through a mob who will work with me to pull all of it together in one order hopefully. We have just based around IKEA dimensions for internals as our base case back up but from reading around it seems local mobs with their own CNC are pretty competitive price wise.

  Yeah, there's probably a bit more effort on the design side (I'm ok because I can use AutoCad to lay it out) but I think the quality of what you get it better if you a try a few of those smaller alternatives. Once you work out what you want it might also be worth one or two enquiries to proper kitchen installers ... sometimes that can be a bit of a market driven industry and if you get it in a quiet period you might be lucky on the cost (and not have to do it all yourself).

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## KSG

I was looking at the Kaboodle range but after reading this will look into some local cabinet makers.  Can anyone recommend cabinet makers in Brisbane?

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## Pitto

U could try kitchen in a box, you were looking flat pack, Arms is a member here on this forum, well worth checking him out

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## Brian7886

> When I do my quotes I go through with the customer and give them all the options explaining the pros and cons. I then put a quote together from there.  
> If I am quoting Antaro glass sided drawer(as the customer asked) why would they then have the next company quote base model hardware?? 
> I am just saying as a customer you are better to have the same spec quoted from all companys. This allows you to compare properly!! 
> Also with the thing your sitting in front of now its not that hard to do a bit of research before getting the quotes. People that just go into kitchens blind can end up being taken for a ride if they are not careful.

  Quote it with base hardware for x amount. Then list the higher end hinges and runners for x amount extra. 2 birds, 1 quote.

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## CuttingEdgeKitchens

> Quote it with base hardware for x amount. Then list the higher end hinges and runners for x amount extra. 2 birds, 1 quote.

  No point, I don't offer low end hardware.  
Customers need to understand what they are getting quoted and that cheap hardware can cut $2000-$3000 off a kitchen!  
If you are getting a kitchen quoted you are much better off having the exact same plan, hardware and materials quoted then you can compare apples with apples!

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## Brian7886

> No point, I don't offer low end hardware.  
> Customers need to understand what they are getting quoted and that cheap hardware can cut $2000-$3000 off a kitchen!  
> If you are getting a kitchen quoted you are much better off having the exact same plan, hardware and materials quoted then you can compare apples with apples!

  Im not talking about low end as in quality. Im talking regular hinge/drawer runners opposed to soft close or whatever.  
All im saying is, if your customer is going to go to the next guy, get a quote for something which does not include soft close and such, but just regular hinging, they might just go with him for the sake of saving bucks (even though they arent getting as great a product as you have offered to them). you cant compare apples for apples unless they actually do come back to you with that comparison.  
Im in a different trade, but deal with it everyday. Ive had an instance where a picky customer got, and this is no lie, 21 quotes from 21 companies to supply and install ducted air conditioning. 20 of these companies came up with units between 14 and 15kw, prices ranging from 12-14 thousand depending on brand. The 1 guy who got the job installed a 10kw ducted for 9 thousand...........They didnt come back to any of the other guys, just the cheapest. Its VERY hard to be competitive in your business when there is people doing that. They got shotty work, in which were were employed to repair, which cost thousands to do, and with that, theyve still got an undersized air conditioner.  
I guess you being in sydney, you put forward a quote and you get it or you dont. Where i am, it can be very very competitive (as i said above) and you need to put forward your best product and its price, and sometimes cater for the cheaper option. But thats part of reading clients. Youll soon know what they are like

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## whitey56

I will add my 2 bobs worth here, I have installed a Kaboodle kitchen myself the biggest problem with the cabinets is the nylon plugs for the hinges are useless and strip or pull out as you tighten the screws, i have fixed this problem replacing them with the white rawl plugs which i glued in, its not a big deal and takes about 5 minutes per cabinet. The melamine is average and extra screws are needed also the Kaboodle hinges and runners are also average but i didn't complain about the price.
The best think about Kaboodle is that it's flexible as i use to buy 2 or 3 cabinets at a time install them then go back for another 2 or 3, this allowed me to change the setout of the kitchen 3 times so we are happy with the end result and would not change anything.
One other mistake we made was going Push To Open they are too sensitive and 4 screw hinges would be best but they have a limited range. 
Hope this helps someone.

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## OBBob

I used some Kaboodle cabinets on a laundry wall. They seem very solid but they aren't cheap. I can see the advantage of being able to get a few cabinets at a time. When I did my whole kitchen there were carcases everywhere!

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## autogenous

How much?   

> Y
> Speaking of which, the benchtops went in yesterday.

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## David.Elliott

I recently installed a kaboodle. Compared to the Masters (RIP) stuff I've used (about 6 times) the KB really is crap...the melamine is hit and miss. Sometimes it's like there's not much behind the screw so the drill just keeps on driving..there's no board across the rear of the cabinets. so they give you tiny steel brackets that I can straighten between two fingers. The owner was a metal guy so he made me some 3mm x 25mm angle brackets. Just as well, as I had a REAL challenge trying to get the joints nice. Could not figure it..then the light went on...the tops were bowed both ways. There was about 8mm along the 2000mm top (I can pull that out)  and about 3-4mm front to back across the 600mm of the top,, There was no way I could figure how to get the perfect join. I got good, but not my usual standard. I asked the owner about it.. THEN I found out the kitchen had been on the floor of his shed for 8 months, with the tops on the concrete floor. Later  he called to say moisture was blowing up the joins...
The tops has Proform labels on them, and those guys are good.  I rang Proform to ask about it. As soon as I said joints blowing up she asked if it was a B kitchen. Turns out they just cut the joints, and not supply the tops, and I was not the first (or even tenth) to call with this complaint. The kickboards are some kind of fibre crap that look like they'll fall apart as soon as they get water in the same room...Interestingly the owner said he bought the B kitchen as they did not want, and were assured that, the doors weren't vinyl wrap..I had to show him...

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## OBBob

> I recently installed a kaboodle. Compared to the Masters (RIP) stuff I've used (about 6 times) the KB really is crap...the melamine is hit and miss. Sometimes it's like there's not much behind the screw so the drill just keeps on driving..there's no board across the rear of the cabinets. ...

  Oh ... maybe they've gone cheap? My laundry wall carcasses had solid backs!

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## David.Elliott

Nope they had solid backs...Most carcasses I've come across have a strip of melamine about 80-100mm deep across the top at the front and the back, not sure what you would call it...but the B ones only had a strip at the front...

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## Eden

I had put in an older thread that about 2 years ago the laundry range from cunnings went the same as Ikea and was without solid backs, garbage now in my opinion and I dont install it either .

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## David.Elliott

I did forget to mention, the drawers on B are just melamine carcasses, and there is no adjustment when putting on the drawer fronts. The instructions tell you to clamp the bottom one on in position and screw it off, then use a dollar coin for the spacing up from there...really!

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## Eden

yep, not physically possible with the last/top drawer unless pulled out partially and not physically possible with the single or double 600mm drawers at the oven tower base or under a microwave.

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## David.Elliott

Been involved with about 6 "M" kitchens so far and I like them a lot. Not sure what I'm gonna do now they're no more..
Did find a guy locally, but he won't sell me carcasses without doors,(?) which is what I make and how I make my extra dollar...
The other thing is I do this on w/ends; I work a full week. Being able to send a list down to the local M and then go pick up anytime is great.

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