# Forum Home Renovation Retaining Walls  Universal Beams Vs Universal Columns?? LONG post & my research

## lolichka

Howdy folks,
Firstly sorry for the long post, i've got some questions as well as included some of my research that may help others  :Redface: )...  
We got all our sleepers delivered by Woodys Sawmill (x47 3.0 mt lengths 200x75 and x14 2.4mt lengths 200x75) which included extra sleepers for the uprights. Hubby has now decided to do a left field and wants to go with the steel uprights!! 
BUT... 
i'm really hoping someone can clarify for me what the difference is between universal beams and universal columns? I now have the task of costing out the steel uprights and want to get my terminology correct before calling companies. 
After reading the plethora of posts on retaining walls and the few posts that had constructed them with the steel uprights I went to yellow pages and have a small list of steel companies to call for pricing... I know some posts on the forum said the two were the same but some of those companies websites had both listed so now I am really confused. 
Is someone able to clarify for me or point me in the direction of some data sheets explaining what's what and what sections to use where - please?  
Also, given that we were originally going to go with timber uprights, we purchased the 3.0mt lengths for wales which we were going to put an upright at each end and then one in the middle for added support (so an upright 1500 spaced - hope that makes sense). 
My next question is - given that the wales are 3.0mt long, do we need to use a steel support in the middle of the 3.0mt wale if we go with the steel uprights at each end? if so, what would that one be called? 
The height of the retaining walls: 
1. straight wall - 800 high x 14mt long
2. L shaped wall - ground height graduating up to 800 high x 7mt at furtherest corner then tapering to ground height on other side x 8mt, so the corner of the L shape is at the highest point (hope that makes sense?!?) 
As a side note, has anyone used recycled steel uprights as I have one company listed. 
As part of my estimates i'll be costing out HDG vs MS with a cold gal spray so will be interesting to see the difference or similarities in price, time, inconvenience with doing it via spray vs all done for you type thing. 
As a side note - I sourced pricing for coachbolts if anyone is interested from a company called 'bolts galore' in carrum downs. They are your cup head bolts HDG + nut/washer, size 10x160x200 - $81.20/100 (incl gst) - I thought that was a very reasonable price. Not sure if anyone has any better pricing they'd care to share on the same specd item  :Redface: ) 
Anyway - sorry for the long post, look forward to some help  :Redface: ) 
Thanks,
Loli 
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If anyone wants a list of companies in melbourne - URLs are below (mainly focused on South Eastern / Peninsula area but some in west/subs of melb - metal steel supplies seem to be concentrated around dandenong area I have found). There are lots more companies but I went with those who had related product descriptions in their advertisements LOL!!  http://www.metalcorpsteel.com.au/ http://www.melsteel.com.au/ http://www.steelforce.com.au/ www.allsteelinternational.com.au http://www.alexfraser.com.au (recycled materials!!) http://www.countrysteel.com.au http://www.econosteel.com/ Frankston Steel Supplies http://www.ian-stansfield-smith.com.au Steel Solutions - For all your steel needs.

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## Pulse

Just a few comments, 
doesn't really matter what you call the steel, the beams have a higher web to flange ratio than the columns, but shape is still an "I". The web just needs to fit your timber so columns probably better. 
Check your bolt prices on scrooz.com.au - a sponsor of this forum. 
HDG ≠ spray gal from a can, the two just don't compare. You need all holes drilled and then the whole post HDG to ensure that it doesn't rust. The cold gal will fail in a few years in soil contact. You can also paint the part in concrete in bitumen paint for extra protection. 
The posts should be at 1.5m spacing, depending on thickness, so cut your wales in half if you need to for that area, remember to re-treat all cut ends. Be sure to use ag pipe and drainage gravel protected from the topsoil by geofabric for a longer lasting wall. 
Cheers
Pulse

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## lolichka

Thanks Pulse for the reply. pretty well much up on the requirements w/ drainage/ag/sock etc  :Redface: .... 
thanks for clarification on the beams/columns - so differentiator is the "higher web to flange ratio"... still don't understand what that means. Is that the 'thickness' of the beam (wall)???? *shrug*.... 
I had a look at scrooz but the ones from the company in my prev post are still alot cheaper and I don't have to pay for shipping. I think from memory I researched about 5 different companies pricing - all with varying prices too!! 
The tip about the cold gal spray is interesting as I have had ppl say life expectancy in soil is alot longer than that. 
also...not wanting to cut the 3mt length wales - would still be interested in hearing what steel support to use in the middle or whether one is required either from yourself (again) or others  :Redface: .  
Thanks 
Loli

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## Master Splinter

A beam carries a horizontal load while a column carries a vertical load (ie your beam is supported at each end by a column).    
Each is designed to economically resist the sort of load that it will typically encounter, as the failure modes are basically complete opposites - beams are loaded in tension, while columns are loaded in compression. 
(Beams are more I shaped while columns are more H shaped!!)

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## lolichka

> (Beams are more I shaped while columns are more H shaped!!)

  thanks very much for the reply - Still muddy for me but it does explain it all the more better. I think I may have found the company in bayswater that someone else alluded to Cheapest Retaining Wall Steel in Melbourne : Cheapest Retaining Wall Steel in Melbourne - RW Steel pictures speak a thousand words and i've found some beams/columns that we need for stage 2 so know what to ask for when speaking with them and all the others for a price comparison...  :Redface:  
Another question (thus the edit).... 
i'm also lost on the sizes of the columns/beams -   the wales are 200x75 so for the I / H / C shapes (etc) - what size would I need? 
Regards 
Loli

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## Belair_Boy

Both Pulse and Master Splinter are correct.
Both universal beams and universal columns are H or I shaped depending on which way you look at them but the Universal beam UB is usually deeper in the web (the vertical bit of the I) than the universal column. As you are using them as an upright in the retaining wall the web depth (distance between the flanges, the top and bottom of the I) needs to fit your timber as closely as possible but can be a bit larger or smaller if that is the closest you can get.  If it is larger you can chock the timber to the front face and the back fill will keep it there.  If smaller, you can reduce the thickness of the timber locally at the back to make them fit (this method requires more work and you don't want to remove too much).
Cold galv spray is just a paint which is loaded with zinc particles. Hot dipped galvanizing is where the steel is coated in a layer of zinc by dipping it in a bath of molten zinc.  HDG is a much better protection and is the best for in ground applications.
If you double the length between the steel uprights you will increase the deflection due to the force of the backfill by a factor of 16. So if, for example, the timber bowed outward by 1 mm for steel uprights at 1.5m, it will bow outwards 16mm at 3m.  This is why pulse suggested 1.5m between the uprights and to cut your timber in half, it makes for a much stronger retaining wall.  You could always place a steel upright in front of the wall at the half way point but that would look rather silly IMHO and not really save anything other than cutting your timber.
If you can get the required steel as recycled at a good price and not too rusty then it is a good option but it may be easier to just buy exactly what you need new. 
Hope this is of some help.

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## Eastwing

Hot dip gal 100 UC's, are what you are looking for. Try Tile Importers for a price   Here 
For more info have a look here retaining-wall-ideas-universal-beams-instead-sleeper-posts

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## Belair_Boy

PS. Looking at all your references (and mine), it appears the smallest section you can get is a Universal Column 100UC14.8.  This has a depth of section of 97mm and a flange thickness of 7 mm, so the distance between the flanges will be 83mm. This is 8 mm larger than your 75mm timber so the "chocking method" looks to be the option of choice.  As you can get this section in pre cut pre galvanized lenghts it may be the cheapest option.
By the way, the 14.8 of the 100UC14.8 indicates it is 14.8kg per metre enabling you to work out the weight of each upright.

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## lolichka

> Hot dip gal 100 UC's, are what you are looking for. Try Tile Importers for a price Here 
> For more info have a look here retaining-wall-ideas-universal-beams-instead-sleeper-posts

  hello,
thanks for the links. tile importers from what I could (not) see on their site didn't have anything showing UCs?? Im familiar with the post above also and mentioned the 'alternatives' to hubby a while back, I thought the metal pickets (thicker ones) were a good idea but hubby wasn't keen on them!! 
Regards 
Loli

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## lolichka

> PS. Looking at all your references (and mine), it appears the smallest section you can get is a Universal Column 100UC14.8. This has a depth of section of 97mm and a flange thickness of 7 mm, so the distance between the flanges will be 83mm. This is 8 mm larger than your 75mm timber so the "chocking method" looks to be the option of choice. As you can get this section in pre cut pre galvanized lenghts it may be the cheapest option.
> By the way, the 14.8 of the 100UC14.8 indicates it is 14.8kg per metre enabling you to work out the weight of each upright.

  Thanks Belair_Boy (are you around the national park - how's that fairing these days? I remember of years gone by having many wonderful church picnics there  :Smilie: !!!) but back to your post - thanks so very much for the detailed information and spelling it out for me in lamens terms (something my brain can understand LOL)... and that of the chocking method - with regards to 'chocking' is that just the terminology provided for the backfill wedging the wale against the front of the upright or is chocking some extra bit of material thats required (sorry for the lame question!) .  
Thanks too for the explanation on the 14.8 reference, I figure that our 3.5 year old is a little heavier than that so if hubby can lift her, he will have no problems lifting them on his own for the 1.5m lengths LOL!!  
My next question is - hubby wanted to wedge the wales as tight as possible to the web section, but I mentioned to him that there would need to be some allowance for the timber to contract/expand with the weather, is this correct?? If so, and a gap is required - how much of a gap would one need from either side of the web to allow for expansion etc? 
Thanks again for your help, really appreciated to everyone  
Regards
Loli

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## Belair_Boy

No worries Loli, 
I am glad I was able to make it easier to understand. 
"Chocking" was just my terminology but wedging would have probably been better.
Eastwing suggested plastic wedges in this posting http://www.renovateforum.com/f215/re...r-posts-86539/
These keep the timber against the front flanges during the backfilling operation.  Once the backfilling has been done the wedges are of no real use so anything can be used, eg timber wedges from offcuts. 
If the timber is dry when wedged between the uprights and swells when it becomes wet (this will happen of course) it will need to go somewhere and the result will be bowing.
Some gap will need to be left and that will depend on the length of the timbers the species of wood and how dry it was initially.  I cant give you a specific figure but one solution might be to soak the timber before they are placed and thus will be at their longest. They will then shrink when they dry out and create their own gap which is just right for when they become wet again. Just a thought but should work in theory. 
Belair national park is nearby and as lovely as ever, a great place for a walk to clear ones head from all the building.  :Wink:

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## lolichka

> No worries Loli, 
> I am glad I was able to make it easier to understand.

   - yes, thank you very much...   

> If the timber is dry when wedged between the uprights and swells when it becomes wet (this will happen of course) it will need to go somewhere and the result will be bowing. ... one solution might be to soak the timber before they are placed and thus will be at their longest. They will then shrink when they dry out and create their own gap which is just right for when they become wet again. Just a thought but should work in theory.

  Thanks for another great tip - I agree it 'should' work in theory.  I'll tell hubby the good news that he can carry all of the sleepers out of the garage (after he just moved them there tonight) and put them in the wonderful elements of this melbourne weather LOL!!!     

> Belair national park is nearby and as lovely as ever, a great place for a walk to clear ones head from all the building.

  Does the creek still run through? I remember catching tadpoles there LOL!!!  
Thanks again, 
Regards 
Loli

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## Belair_Boy

> Does the creek still run through? I remember catching tadpoles there LOL!!! 
> Loli

  Yes but I bet it is more of a raging river at the moment :Smilie:

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## ScroozAdmin

> I had a look at scrooz but the ones from the company in my prev post are still alot cheaper and I don't have to pay for shipping.

   :Confused:  think you got us confused with someone else, we don't offer that size.

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## lolichka

> think you got us confused with someone else, we don't offer that size.

  Thx scruffydoo - the link was posted to me by Pulse but i'd already come across you folk  :Redface: )

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## lolichka

... Happy New Year to all... hope you had a good break off or are still enjoying it... 
I have a quick question with regards to these universal columns - more of a technical one... a friend of my husbands has offered to make the universal columns for us as he has the required folding/welding/drilling gear in his workshop - we are just required to source the galvanised sheets.  
From what I have measured, the thickness of these universal columns pre-made seem to be around 3mm thick (measured in bunnings).  
Our wales are 200x75 so i'm guaging the galv sheet width would need to reflect that (75x200x75) PLUS some allowance for expanding timber PLUS some allowance for the corner crease... however.... this is where I am stuck.... 
...is anyone able to shed some light as to how much would be used in materials to create the corner crease from a galv sheet? for example Is it 10mm or more ... i'm just trying to work out my materials so I can approach some metal merchants for pricing on sheet sizes etc... 
probably a bit of an askew question but if there's some formula out there or 'rule of thumb' or some technical info someone could point me to that'd be great...  :Biggrin:  maybe it's an easy one?? 
Thanks again, really appreciate the help 
Loli

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## Belair_Boy

> ... Happy New Year to all..Loli

  Happy New Year to you too. 
A 100UC14.8 Universal Column  has a flange thickness of 7 mm and a web thickness of 5 mm.  It is hot rolled in the steel mill and is not joined, welded or folded. 
Personally I would go for genuine steel universal column which has been hot dipped galvanised. 
As I see it, the issues with fabricating a retaining wall post from galvanised sheet will be as follows:
The metal is to be cut and welded thus exposing raw steel and introduces a corrosion problem.  You could have the fabrications hot dipped galvanised but you might as well do this to UC in the first place.
The sheet you suggest is only 3 mm thick and is a bit light on compared to UC.
I am assuming your friend is doing the fabrication for free, otherwise the cost of the sheet plus labour will exceed the cost of UC. 
I am not sure what Bunnings sell but I can guess it is light weight and made to sell to the DIY market at a competitive price. 
I don't fully understand what you are describing here,
" Our wales are 200x75 so i'm guaging the galv sheet width would need to reflect that (75x200x75) PLUS"
I assume your friend would fold up two C sections and weld them back to back to form an I shape.  The web of the C will have to fit your wales (75mm thick) and the "flanges" say 50mm, plus a little for the fold.  This gives 50 + 75 + 50 = 175 plus a bit, so a strip about 180mm wide by 1600 long would be required for each C piece.
Your friend will know how much to allow for the bend if he has a machine large enough to bend 1600 long by 3 mm thick but the "flanges" are not critical, only the 75 for your timber.  Welding back to back also introduces a small gap between the two C pieces and water will creep in by capillary action causing additional corrosion problems. 
I hope I don't come across all negative this posting but I think you need to think carefully before making a decision.  A few dollars saved in the posts may not be the best solution in the long term. :Smilie:

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## jago

Belair boy makes some very good points    the thickness won't be as good ..will cause failurethe fabrication won't be as strong....will cause failuregalvnised steel has to be striped back to weld and then re -galvanised - this will  fail if exposed to elements and chemicals in soil.the cost probably moreBunnys is store not a steel merchant and as such ....
Steel merchants will be reasonbly priced with the US$ rate call them direct for the UC prices buy the biggest length that is divisble by the height you need(1.5) should be ableto buy a 12 metre section for <$500.

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## andxche

I've read through the replys and most have it right. 
UC is a universal column - effectively a H section
UB is universal beam - effectively an I section
Note that a 100UC 14.8 is 14.8kg per metre length. For a 800 high wall you will need about 1500 length - 800 obove and 800 below ground level. 
The term clumn and beam are irrelevant as the sections may be used for either but UB are norminally beams and UC normally columns.
If you are building the retaining wall near a boundary then check with your local council if you need a building permit.
An engineer will give you the design requirements for a given wall height to upright distance. This will depend on the soils. 
Please take care. I have seen many walls that were built by "experienced" contractors fail after a few years due to improer proportions.

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