# Forum Home Renovation Pergolas, Gazebos, Strombellas & Rotundas  Owner Building - YES or NO?

## Bin J

Further to my post (Renovation / m2) . . . I've had my dad on the phone again, trying to convince me to "owner build", which was the plan in the first place, but the builder friend who was going to help got too busy. 
After reading the below . . .     

> For what its worth here is a thread where I am tracking our renos, I have included some stuff on costs which may come in handy 
> Cheers  The link

  . . . I thought I'd ask - for those who have owner-built - why, beside cost, would you do this? 
1. Is it a big hassle? 
2. Was it / is it satisfying?
3. Is it majorly stressful
4. Were you working a 'normal' job while you were owner building?
5. Is there things you "cringe" about that you wish you'd got a builder to do?
6. How do tradesmen interact with owner builders (especially women!) ie. are they condesceding, are the more than willing to help, do they take you for a ride?
7. How _ascertive_ do I need to be?
8. Who are the best people to get free advice from?  
Ta!
Bin J

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## ozwinner

> 6. How do tradesmen interact with owner builders (especially women!) ie. are they condesceding, are the more than willing to help, do they take you for a ride?
> 8. Who are the best people to get free advice from?  
> Ta!
> Bin J

  Ok I can answer 6 and 8. 
6. I dont like to work for owner builders mainly because they cause me to lose money from their inability to get things done when they are suppose to be done.
Hence, if I HAVE TO work for an owner builder I useualy charge at least twice the going rate. 
8. From the ppl least likely to give it away for free.
Advise aint free, it always carrys a cost, get the wrong advise and see what I mean. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## Bin J

Ouch Ozwinner! You are NOT selling owner-building!  :Smilie:   
I should also mention that I don't intend on doing any hammering and nailing, rather just organising, chasing up, etc, etc. But will do demolition work etc.

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## ozwinner

Too many ppl watch them lifestlye shows where Jamie Jurry flashes his pearly whites, and hey presto, the job is done like magic. 
Well the bad news, I dont think his girly hands are up to it for starters, he may chip a nail or worse, get a blister. 
What you dont see behind the scenes are the hoard of real tradies doing all the work.
Yes I know, it all looks like plain sailing on tv. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## Sturdee

At one stage I worked for a builder, doing his books not on the tools, and I learnt what needs to be done to keep a project on time, on track and on budget. The scheduling of the various works and the order in which it is done to keep the trades working and cost down is enormous. 
Hence my advice is that if you need to ask those questions then you don't know enough to be an owner builder. As ozwinner said it is not like the reality shows where they don't show the scheduling, ordering and organising that has gone on behind the scenes. 
May be a tafe short course on owner building would be a good idea. 
Having said that, if I was now to build a house I would do it myself.  :Biggrin:    
Peter.

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## rick_rine

in my humble opinion you wont save money , just the opposite it will cost more .
Don't do it unless it is for a hobby or personal challenge .
Great advise from last post , do a TAFE course first  and plan , plan ,plan .
Rick 
P.S. In answer to your question yes or no . I say No .

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## Bin J

> Too many ppl watch them lifestlye shows where Jamie Jurry flashes his pearly whites, and hey presto, the job is done like magic. 
> What you dont see behind the scenes are the hoard of real tradies doing all the work.
> Yes I know, it all looks like plain sailing on tv. 
> Al

  Well I'm not that naive!  :Biggrin:  (just because I'm a girl!) In fact, I'm quite cynical when it comes to stuff like that. What I thought I could do by owner building was to avoid paying the builder a MASSIVE amount, for work that he may *or* may not have to do. I don't want to have to pay an extra $40k for nothing! When instead I could have had a better kitchen / bathroom / floor coverings etc. 
By what you've all said though - this isn't necessarily the case?:confused:  
PS - don't bag out Jamie Dury! - I've seen him strip, trust me, he's no girl  :Wink:   :Biggrin:   :Tongue:

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## Greolt

I am going to have to agree with Ozwinner here. 
If owner builders ask me to work for them I tell them I am too busy even if I'm 
not. They're not worth the effort. If I get talked into it I charge at least double. 
This sounds harsh but it is reality and every experienced tradesman I know will say the same. 
Unless you are very confident of your ability to be an "owner builder" don't even consider it. 
Please take this the right way. I am only trying to help you avoid a lot of pain and expence. 
There are definately people who can do it and I have seen it work out well.
I am sure there are a lot of members of this forum who would do well but most people should not attempt it. 
Greolt

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## bitingmidge

> 1. Is it a big hassle?

  It can be, depending on the personality of the OB.   I used to tell my client's that building can be the best or worst thing that's ever happened to them in their lives.   Some get soooooo stressed over the smallest little defect that one wonders how they would cope in a disaster.  If you understand that if you do mess up in the supervision stakes, anything can be fixed and take it in your stride, you'll be OK.  

> 2. Was it / is it satisfying?

  For those that didn't suffer major stress attacks yes.  

> 3. Is it majorly stressful

   Mostly building is about managing.  If you find managing stressful, then you'll be stressed for the whole project.  

> 4. Were you working a 'normal' job while you were owner building?

    As a registered builder with a bit of experience, working at a senior level in a development company, I had more resources at my disposal than most, yet during our recent renovations I had a minimum of three visits per day on site, one at the beginning of the day, one in my "lunch hour" and one after everyone had gone home, checking what had or hadn't been done.   An average of an hour or so per day on site is a realistic minimum if you are a very good manager and are concerned about quality, but that doesn't take into account racing round and picking up stuff that didn't arrive or that is needed to keep the guys working.  

> 5. Is there things you "cringe" about that you wish you'd got a builder to do?

   Everything was subcontracted, I cringe when I see stuff I could have done better, and spent a couple of hours teaching the young cabinet maker how to set out a curved bench.  

> 6. How do tradesmen interact with owner builders (especially women!) ie. are they condesceding, are the more than willing to help, do they take you for a ride?

  See Oz's comment. Don't think that a condescending attitude is gender based, there are plenty of blokes who are complete dopes who waste a lot of subbies time too.  Don't expect help unless you are prepared to pay for it.  This may be a fun learning experience for you, but for the tradesman it's an expensive waste of time.  He's there to make a living, and can do that a lot easier if he isn't expected to "help".  

> 7. How _ascertive_ do I need to be?

  Let me see..... female, knows not much, _ascertive_.   I don't think so.
Better to have them think you are stupid than to open your trap and prove it!!
On another thread, SilentC after a week into the new project has correctly alluded to the fact effectively supervising a building team is about managing people.  Some people respond to assertiveness, others don't.  There are no rules.  Your job is to get the best result from each member of the team, and you have to treat each accordingly.  

> 8. Who are the best people to get free advice from?

  See Oz's comments.      Free advice is usually worth what you pay for it.  (Except if you get it from this forum!  :Rolleyes:   :Wink:   ) 
Don't think I'm trying to disuade you from having a go, I'm not.  BEFORE you start, learn enough about the process to answer your own questions above, and you'll be OK. 
Cheers, 
P  :Biggrin:

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## Greolt

You posted while I typed. This is definately not being sexist. 
The most successful owner builder I have seen is a girl. Eight houses last time I counted. 
Greolt

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## bitingmidge

> What I thought I could do by owner building was to avoid paying the builder a MASSIVE amount, for work that he may *or* may not have to do. I don't want to have to pay an extra $40k for nothing!

  Hmmm.   The only way you'll save $40k by owner building, is doing $80k worth of work yourself! 
Sorry, but that's the sad truth! 
cheers, 
P

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## bitingmidge

> You posted while I typed. This is definately not being sexist. 
> The most successful owner builder I have seen is a girl. Eight houses last time I counted. 
> Greolt

  That makes her a builder, so it doesn't count! 
Cheers, 
P  :Biggrin:

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## Christopha

Al and the Midgster are both spot on, I will not work for an owner builder full stop....  Generally, as a chippy I prefer to work for women as they are easier to talk to, have a better grasp of costing and aren't getting up my nose all bloody day trying to convince me they know more than me..... Oh, and they pay their bills far more promptly!

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## ozwinner

Im pretty sure that to be an OB in Vic now, you have to do a course of some sort.
I still wont work for them. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## Greolt

> That makes her a builder, so it doesn't count!

  I guess you could say that but she is just a mum with three young kids an runs a gift shop. Also lived in all the houses she built. 
Greolt

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## ozwinner

> I guess you could say that but she is just a mum with three young kids an runs a gift shop. Also lived in all the houses she built........... 
> Greolt

  ....................For 12 months to escape the CGT. 
Al  :Biggrin:

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## Gaza

last time i check most builders doing renos and ad's are not driving around in BWM's.  Builders do not charge that much on job of the sub trades and materials.  At the end of the day the margin would be equal to the discount that you would miss out on being owner builder. 
Owner builders can save heaps of cash but this requries doing all most all the work them selfs and sourcing cheap materials. 
Another issue is if you owner build them you have a time limittation period that you can not sell unless you get an isure to issue home owners warrinity insurnace. 
Go to the course and then talk to others have done it before making the move.  Maybe get a builder to do up to lock then manage the finishes your self, as these are major cost areas for materials. (IE kitchens, tiles, fixtures fittings)

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## Ian007

In my opinion you in fact wont save any money by doing it yourself, I believe it will cost you more and probably a lot more. 
Builders gets massive discounts for materials
you will not get these price savings. 
ie roof tiles builders get a 75% discount 
you will be lucky to get 10%.  This discount structure works for everything you will need for your house. Timber, concrete, plumbing, wiring, steel,  kitchen, no matter what you get a builder will get a better price, no matter what and there is your 40K 
The facts are builders have full time staff to price stuff, they know what a certain trade will charge for labour or the going rate is for meterage ect.
you dont. 
I can promise you what Al said is a fact. You will not get any discount from your tradies as your job is a one off and there is no ongoing work for them.
Just why should they give you a cheaper price?
Whats in it for them to give you a lower price? 
..... lets see 
.....thinking thinking  
.....umm  
..... Nothing 
Sorry to put a damper on your parade but I am just being honest. 
Cheers Ian

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## echnidna

I agree totally with the views expressed by all of the tradesmen here.
Owner builders are usually so disorganised its difficult to get your job done without hassles. 
BM is 100% right in that organisation is crucial. 
If you really want to owner build, become your dear old dad's apprentice and go and work with him untill he finishes his current house. Then get him to return the favor and come and help you.

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## Dan_574

I owner built my own house last year, after a good year of research and planning I took long service leave and employed my builder old man for 17 weeks.  We got in in that time except for the verandahs which were finished 6 weeks after.  Im still doing alot of little things that need to be done.  I could write a whole book on the subject, too much for here if you need specific questions answered pm me and Im more than happy to assist.<o :Tongue: ></o :Tongue: > 
   Be prepared to get run around by tradesman, there are alot who say one thing and do another.  The amount of blokes I rang and asked for quotes who said yeah no worries never even got back to me.  It really annoys you, if you dont want to deal with owner builders then say so in the first place dont lead them on.<o :Tongue: ></o :Tongue: > 
   The only trades I got in were the earth movers, roofers, sparkies, plumbers and plasterers to set the joins and sand.  Otherwise me, my old man , wife and family helped.  It was extremely hard work, tiring, I went the last 9 weeks working 10hr days straight without a rest, then had to go home and do invoices and prepare for the next stage.<o :Tongue: ></o :Tongue: >  To say that it was an achievement is an understatement, I wouldnt recommend it unless you could devote yourself fully to the project.  I was lucky in that I had long service leave, a carpenter dad and brother, uncle who owns a hardware store.

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## ozwinner

> . It really annoys you, if you dont want to deal with owner builders then say so in the first place dont lead them on.<O></O>  .

  But some ppl dont take NO for an answer.
Been there done that. 
Al  :Biggrin:

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## Dan_574

Oz I wasnt talking about not taking no for an answer I sent 6 plans to local plumbers and sparkies who all said they do a quote and none got back to me.  They were more than willing on the phone talking about it but when it came to the crunch they were really un professional.

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## ian

Bin J
I'm a bit surprised that only one reply mentions the issue of home warranty insurance.
It's my understanding (from reading articles in the _Fin'_) that one of the current driving forces behind being an owner builder is that if an owner-builder engages a builder, the builder doesn't need to take out home warranty insurance (which, again according to the Fin, is very much an insurance company rort in NSW and Victoria) 
I also understand that the home warranty requirements vary from state to state.  
ian

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## ozwinner

> Oz I wasnt talking about not taking no for an answer I sent 6 plans to local plumbers and sparkies who all said they do a quote and none got back to me. They were more than willing on the phone talking about it but when it came to the crunch they were really un professional.

   

> Ok I can answer 6 and 8. 
> 6. I dont like to work for owner builders mainly because they cause me to lose money from their inability to get things done when they are suppose to be done.
> Hence, if I HAVE TO work for an owner builder I useualy charge at least twice the going rate.  
> Al

  I think No 6. is your answer.
When tradies find out you are an owner builder, no matter how nice a person you are, they aint going to do your work.. 
Sorry, but thats the way it is. 
Al  :Frown:

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## Cliff Rogers

OK Ms. J, now that these blokes have takled you out of being an OB, you need to find a B you can trust....  :Rolleyes:  This is going to take some homework too 'cos there's some bottom dwellers out there. :mad:  
We got ourselves a builder to do some renos 'cos he was working up the road & 'seemed' to be doing a good job.  :Frown:   
Long story short, it all went pear shaped & we sacked him. 
What we didn't know...
1. he was a mate of the bloke up the road where he 'seemed' to be doing a good job.
2. he wouldn't do paperwork.
3. he wouldn't be nailed to a price for anything.
4. he was agro.
5. he didn't show up when he said he would.
6. he showed up when he said he wouldn't.
7. he was a grub & chucked crap all over our yard.
8. he was on loco weed.
9. he couldn't build a dog house.
10. he had a BIG problem listening to my wife or the female architect.
11. he couldn't follow plans.
12. he didn't work well with other tradesman.
13. he couldn't give instructions to delivery drivers that they could follow. 
Now we are most likely classed as OBs but we are getting each bit done by someone who has been recommended by someone else in the industry IE: Painter says get a quote from this tiler & that plasterer etc. 
Up here in QLD, you only need BSA insurance if the job is over a certain value & it's not worth a cracker if the builder is &/or is a crook. You also only have to do a OBs course if the job exceeds a certain value. 
We might be paying a bit more & it might be taking a bit longer BUT it's getting done right this time 'cos when a new tradesman starts, we rubbish the hell out of the jerk that stuffed us around & none of them want us to do the same to them.  :Biggrin:   
Just in case you are wondering, his name is Rodney & he lives on the southern end of the tablelands.... PM me if you want his phone number. :Biggrin:

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## Bin J

Yes, they certainly have made the rethink (AGAIN :mad: ) - don't think I'll be sleeping tonight. 
If you've all read my other post - click here - and read how much the builder quote was and for what . . . then do you have the same opinion - ESPECIALLY the comment "it would/could cost you more".  
If I was happy to plod along with the whole project - ie. have each section for the different tradies totally completed before engaging the next tradie, would that make the tradies quotes any less. 
Or what else can I do (reassure, prove myself to be reliable etc, etc) to avoid being "charged double". ie, what would I have to say / do for you tradies to give me (on behalf of all owner builders  :Biggrin:   :Wink:  ) a fair go? 
What would make you go "Yeah okay, I'll do it for you, same deal as a builder". 
Keep in mind, I live in a smallish town and probably know / know of at least one tradie of most types.

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## namtrak

What have you lot been smoking? Pancakes? 
Being an ownerbuilder can create great savings and there are many subbies who will work with you.  That's what my experience has been for the last six months anyway. 
I think there is an assumption by the tradies here, that you have an IQ bordering on idiot savant.  However assuming you can string some commonsense together then there is no drama being an owner builder. 
Set up a trade account at a few suppliers nearby, plumbing supplies, general hardware, roofing, electricity etc and the trade discounts follow, regardless of your status. 
Make sure you are organised.  The one thing you can't do with the tradies and subbies is ummm and ahhh about what you want.  Make sure you've done your homework and you are ready for the sparky, plumber, plasterer and so on when they turn up and they will look after you.  All the better if you are prepared to roll your sleeves up.  Don't let this lot bluff about how much tradesman actually know about stuff they are doing.  Time and again I have had them roll up and ask me how this is supposed to be installed or where this is supposed to fit.  They are generally just using commonsense to fit things where they are supposed to go.  
As for being mucked around by Owner Builders, on the contrary my biggest delay has been every (every) subbie or tradie not turning up when they commit to turn up.  But you have to be prepared to be mucked around by the  tradies who all think that the building construction revolves around their own personal involvement!! 
1. Is it a big hassle? 
If you dont do your homework.  If you dont learn your stuff it will become a very big hassle.  Organisation is the key. 
2. Was it / is it satisfying? 
It is very satisfying.  We are getting exactly what we want, with no shortcuts done exactly they way we are happy with. 
3. Is it majorly stressful 
Not really, apart from finances 
4. Were you working a 'normal' job while you were owner building? 
No, I have been running my own landscaping business so I have my own hours.  I am not sure I could do it whilst working a nine to five job. 
5. Is there things you "cringe" about that you wish you'd got a builder to do? 
Finishing the plastering.  Having said that I will persevere as I am improving 
6. How do tradesmen interact with owner builders (especially women!) ie. are they condesceding, are the more than willing to help, do they take you for a ride? 
If they are condescending then get rid of em.  Most of the mob I've had through here are excellent.  Happy to give advice, have a cuppa and tell me why the Pies will never win another grand final. 
7. How ascertive do I need to be? 
It can be bit of a negotiated compromise, generally I take the position that the tradie knows what they are talking about and I will settle for their suggestion, however if it is something I fell strongly about then its my way or the hallway. 
8. Who are the best people to get free advice from?  
This forum.  Mates at the pub.  Neighbours.  The question should been who are the best people to get GOOD free advice from?  And well you have to make that judgement, just because they sound like they know what they are saying doesn't necessarily make it so... 
Cheers 
More power to the owner builder!!!!

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## Auspiciousdna

I believe anyone can be an owner builders, it's not rocket science, especially if you get tradies in to help out.
And if you where going to be do reno's for profit I'd say go for it, because after three or four you would know enough to make more informed decisions on what kind of finish you're after in your own home. 
The only thing I can see wrong with do this for the first time on your own home is, was the first cake you baked as good as your last? (do you want to be learning as you go on your own place? its always better to be able you sell your mistakes.)

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## Dan_574

Im sorry if it sounded like I was trying to talk you out of it, I certainly wasnt just be prepared for ALOT of hard work and that it isnt going to be easy, prepare and research unfortunately you will come across tradies like ozwinner, who will not want to work with you and who will rip you off, sorry oz but its people like you that give other tradies a bad name. I found tradies who were prepared to listen and done a good job and didnt treat me like an idiot. Give it a go by all means but be prepared for alot of sleepless nights and hard work, like I said if you want to ask questions about anything give me a buzz.
I agree  with what namtrac has said relating to each of your points.  There is no way I could have afforded the house Im in if I didnt do it myself.It is really satisfying,  the biggest problem was getting the bank to approve the money but once that was done it went pretty much to plan.  The only real trouble I had was the roofer that I had lined up didnt show when planned, wouldnt answer my calls, nothing, this was after getting a quote from him and me agreeing, materials ordered, day confirmed and he just disappeared so I had to get another roofer at last minute notice, luckily it all worked out.  Otherwise go for it.

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## old_picker

expect to read a lot 
expect to learn many interesting new things
expect not to save money
expect a quality build
expect it not to ever be finished
expect hassles & many many headaches
expect a unique home
expect a fantasically positive feeling when you finally move in
expect it to change your life
expect it to be the biggest thing in your life for 5 years at least
expect the blokes to laugh at you if you are a girl 
if you are cool with all this do it 
but hey i know quite a few girls who built really cool houses as owner builders. 
and btw you dont have know that much.....i built 2 aob projects and  i had never even built a rough shed.....most builders hate owner builders as a breed so dont expect help from them. As an owner builder you are it and on your own. The buck stops with you. Once you realise that you can move ahead.
good luck and my advice is to do it as it will be one of the most satisfying projects you will ever do. Keep visualising yourself sitting in a nice chair beside your fire eating a big bowl of soup in the housre you built.

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## Cliff Rogers

> ...unfortunately you will come across tradies like ozwinner, who will not want to work with you and who will rip you off, sorry oz but its people like you that give other tradies a bad name......

  Nope, I don't agree with that.... I'm a computer tech & I also have a bias against certain 'customers' 'cos they are just 'not worth the hassle.' 
Just 'cos you 'charge a lot' doesn't give the trade a bad name, if you do the job right. 
If you do a crap job & charge anything at all, you give the trade a bad name. 
I like the old sign that says....
"Workshop rates"
$10/hour.
$20/hour if you want to watch.
$50/hour if you want to watch & ask questions.
$100/hour if you want to do it yourself.

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## Greolt

> unfortunately you will come across tradies like ozwinner, who will not want to work with you and who will rip you off, sorry oz but its people like you that give other tradies a bad name.

  Youv'e got the wrong idea Dan. 
The reason I and others like me have that attitude is we have worked for owner builders
on many occasions and each time we have said to ourselves
 when finnished "I won't make that mistake again - all I did was lose money" 
We can be slow learners :Smilie:

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## Dan_574

Why rip owner builders off though by charging double its wrong.  Im not saying all tradies are ripping people off and I know owner builders do get charged more due to it being a one off  but to charge someone double cause they are an owner builder is wrong.  Too many times tradies dont set down in concrete what it is the customer is getting.  I know there been horror stories with owner builders but there are just as many stories about bad tradies.  
Greolt I just gotta ask why did you lose money?
Im sorry oz if I singled you out but to say that you double a price cause someone is an owner builder is wrong, I think tradies see OB as cash cow

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## Cliff Rogers

I think that maybe owner builders give owner builders a bad name.  :Smilie:

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## Pete J

Doubtless what the tradies are saying is true in their experience.  It is a long while now since I owner-built in Sydney and maybe things have changed dramatically.   
My experience however was positive, except for the drivel told to me by the plasterboard fixer.  All the other trades did good work, were easy to get on with and in the main turned up at approximately the time they said they would. 
It required a LOT of planning and organisation and I visited the site twice a day - which site was about 25 K from work.  Planning ahead, having a schedule, working with estimating guides early on, and adjusting the schedule to take account of the occasional delay all take time, as does keeping in touch with suppliers and tradies and keeping an eye on the work.  The main trouble is there are plenty of things that you don't necessarily know the ins and outs of - things like exactly where flashing should go and how far it should extend etc. 
I learned a lot, grew in confidence as the job proceeded, and took advice from all over the place. 
Having read some of the posts here, maybe I was lucky or maybe times have changed.   
All in all, building is not rocket science.  Be prepared for some hassles, but don't die wondering. 
Regards

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## Greolt

> ....... I think tradies see OB as cash cow

  Just the opposite Dan. Not worth it. Better money elsewhere. 
There is plenty of work out there with builders who know what there doing, know what they want and know how much it costs. 
I refer back to my original post. Lots of people do it very successfully and I think that is great but there are many more who should not attempt it. 
If rules were made to stop people from owner building I would be one who would strongly object. 
Greolt

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## Gaza

some OB are total idots, we did a job for one that was building a 2.5million house, the B****H ripped of all the sub trades, we are out of pocket over $35K formworker $15K Bricklayer ETC... Now we have to go legal root which will cost us more $$. The grounds for deduction are total Bull, thats why OB get charged more. 
Not to say all builders are ok but the ones that have been around for a few years are the ones to go for in the long run whats say an extra 15k to have a builder do it and a complete guarntee for a 7 yr period, plus the bank will lend another 10% if you have a builder.

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## silentC

The main reason that tradies don't want to work for owner builders is because they don't like having the owner on site. 
Why you ask? Spend a bit of time on some else's building site and you'll see what I mean. 
You have to watch these guys like a hawk because they'll get away with anything if they can. Builders turn a blind eye but owners freak out. Very unpleasant for the poor little tradesman.  
You know I'm right  :Tongue:  
I'll tell you in a couple of months whether I think it's worth it. I've done the O/B thing before but it was a totally different situation. If you can get someone who has built before to help you out, it will make your life a lot easier. They'll know what needs to be organised when. You need a decent chippy and if they are half decent, they'll be able to run the job for you. Getting a builder to do it under your O/B permit is another alternative. 
Never listen to brickies, they complain about everything. Apparently it's the lime  :Wink:

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## Auspiciousdna

I too don't like working with these people either, who think they know more than they do, and often look for way to cut cost; like whinning about anything hoping for a discount.

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## silentC

The list of trades people *not* to use is growing longer and longer  :Wink:

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## ThePope

> It required a LOT of planning and organisation and I visited the site twice a day - which site was about 25 K from work. Planning ahead, having a schedule, working with estimating guides early on, and adjusting the schedule to take account of the occasional delay all take time, as does keeping in touch with suppliers and tradies and keeping an eye on the work. The main trouble is there are plenty of things that you don't necessarily know the ins and outs of - things like exactly where flashing should go and how far it should extend etc.

  If you can follow Pete's advice you're a good way towards making it easier on yourself and all who work on the job Bin J. What drives me round the bend working for owner builders is them not knowing what they want ahead of time, constant changes ect. 
As with some of the others here I've had nightmares on some jobs but others have gone perfectly well too, so I don't tar all with the same brush. 
Of course shop around for prices from the various trades, you'll definately find not all charging double  :Smilie:  
ps: are you in Cooma ?

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## boban

My ethnic background meant I grew up with people in the building industry, including my family. This made owner building a lot easier for my family and friends.  
I hear what the guys say about pricing on many of the materials. I get $900 bricks for $600 and so forth, but the trades dont discount their prices except when they work on my own house. But I know what they're worth. Its not a secret though, all you have to do is keep asking around. 
Tradeconnect.com.au is a good place to start when pricing materials. The comparisons I've done dont put me in that much better a position on most items. 
I hear what silent is saying about the tradies not liking people watching them and its so true. Try telling them to fix a mistake and be ready for an argument. But stay firm, they all make mistakes because their human. Just like my plumber who fit 18 shower/bath mixers upside down. After arguing with me during the rough in, he spent 2 days ripping off 4 tiles around each mixer and doing what I told him to do initially. Im no plumber but I know how to read instructions. 
Let me put it this way, if you want a house that looks like a project home with standard fittings, then dont owner build. You want something unique with non standard fittings then do it yourself if you have time on your side.  
I dont think you can avoid HOW by engaging a builder after the fact. Read the Act (NSW). You can get around the Council by doing it but its not legal for the builder in most instances. 
How ascertive you are depends on many factors. If you know your right, then dont back down because you will be left with the defect. I can get tradesmen back, but most OBs have a hell of time.  
BTW I know an excellent builder in Canberra if you would like his details, I can pass them on to you. He is also an exceptionally generous and honest person. 
DONT LET THESE GUYS PUT YOU OFF.  JUST BE PREPARED FOR SOME HARD WORK AND DISSAPPOINTMENTS ALONG THE WAY.

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## silentC

Here's a bit of a log of the problems I've had so far, just by way of illustration: 
1. Dug all the trenches for the strip footings, then placed the trench mesh. The next day it rained all day and filled the trenches with water and silt. Steel had to be pulled out in places and trenches cleaned out. Lost a day and about $1,000 for labour and the extra concrete (because the sides of the trenches collapsed a bit and now needed more concrete to fill). 
2. Poured the footings, then had the surveyors pin the footings (they mark out all the external corners so the bricky, poor hapless fellow, has something to follow). Two footings were about 200mm off. Ran through the options, including digging another trench alongside and pouring another footing. Decided to cantilever the floor instead. 
3. Bricky starts to lay walls and discovers some of the footings are quite badly out of level. More bricks, more mortar, more grumbling. Concretor's name is now mud. Docked him $500. 
4. Looking at window quotes, choosing between two suppliers only to discover that one supplier has gone ahead and ordered windows because our 'project manager' has told him that he's got the job. Turns out to be cheaper by $1,500 so we go with him, however I would have joyfully told him where to stick his windows otherwise. 
5. Bricky and chippy are from Victoria and 'they do things differently down there'. Constant disputes between project manager and the other two over how things should be done, requiring me to step in. Plumber also gets involved. Can't tell him to p' off because he's my Dad. 
6. Meanwhile, shed slab is delayed by rain and then the concretor decides to slip in another job. Nervously watch the weather on the day it's due to be poured. Every time it rains, site is inaccessible for 2 or 3 days because of the clay. It stays fine and slab is poured. 
7. Start building shed. Bits missing. Bugger, run up to shed supplier to get them. More building, more things missing. Currently waiting for 2 roofing sheets to finish the roof, also discovered barge cap is missing. 
8. We put a sweeping bend in the shed slab for the power. I told sparky to wire for 3 phase but the bend we put in is too small to take the cables (my fault). Now he has to  drill holes in the slab edge. 
That's after 3 weeks. Who says it's not fun??

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## ThePope

all sounds very much normal to me silentC  :Smilie:  
btw: who did the setout for the footings

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## silentC

Project manager and his chippy mate. If I was to do it again, I would get the surveyors to put a stake at each corner then run a string line and lime the all trenches. Tell the backhoe to keep the line in the middle of his bucket and Bob's your uncle. Cost a little bit more but surveyors rarely make mistakes.  
The house has a very complicated footprint and the site slopes, so it's not all that surprising. I'm just annoyed with myself because I had a nagging feeling that I should go out and run the tape over it but other things got in the way. I've learnt my lesson. No more concrete will be poured until I've checked the formwork.

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## echnidna

> I owner built my own house last year, ......
>  Be prepared to get run around by tradesman, there are alot who say one thing and do another.  The amount of blokes I rang and asked for quotes who said yeah no worries never even got back to me.  It really annoys you, if you dont want to deal with owner builders then say so in the first place dont lead them on.<o></o>  To say that it was an achievement is an understatement, I wouldnt recommend it unless you could devote yourself fully to the project.  I was lucky in that I had long service leave, a carpenter dad and brother, uncle who owns a hardware store.

   

> Im sorry if it sounded like I was trying to talk you out of it, I certainly wasnt just be prepared for ALOT of hard work and that it isnt going to be easy,  
> I agree  with what namtrac has said relating to each of your points.  There is no way I could have afforded the house Im in if I didnt do it myself.It is really satisfying,  the biggest problem was getting the bank to approve the money but once that was done it went pretty much to plan.  The only real trouble I had was the roofer that I had lined up didnt show when planned, wouldnt answer my calls, nothing, this was after getting a quote from him and me agreeing, materials ordered, day confirmed and he just disappeared so I had to get another roofer at last minute notice, luckily it all worked out.  Otherwise go for it.

  In your posts you contradict yourself totally.
What do you actually mean??
Are you the type of owner builder who can't make a decision and stick to it?

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## boban

Silent just out of interest, how come you backcharged the concretor if he had nothing to do with the set out.  Concretors dont go and pour footings with a dumpy or laser level.  Its just done by eye and stepped where necessary.  The bricky is supposed to level it out from there.  I'd be docking the project manager.

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## echnidna

> ...... unfortunately you will come across tradies like ozwinner, who will not want to work with you and who will rip you off, sorry oz but its people like you that give other tradies a bad name.

  I take offense at a dipstick bad mouthing a tradesman merely because he doesn't like working for ownerbuilders due to having expereinced hassles caused by owner builders. :mad:  :mad:  
Al would be very reasonably entitled to take a legal action against you for your libellous remarks.

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## boban

> I take offense at a dipstick bad mouthing a tradesman merely because he doesn't like working for ownerbuilders due to having expereinced hassles caused by owner builders. :mad:  :mad:  
> Al would be very reasonably entitled to take a legal action against you for your libellous remarks.

  I guess Dan is venting just like Al did.  I couldn't give a flying feather whether a tradie wanted to charge double or not.  They all do it when they're busy or if they can get away with it.  I think its called capitalism.  Any person who expects tradies to *always* give a quote (regardless of who you are) or show up on time, is kidding themselves.  Especially for cottage work.   
For tradies,its so much easier to work for a regular builder or two.  They do a few designs, know the amount of materials required and save time gained through repetition.  Less thinking (read working out quantities and time for quotes and best methods of work for a job) and more doing = more money. 
But if all you tradies were honest, Ill bet you have just as many horror stories about the builder who was never on site or didn't pay or backcharged you for no reason.  
As for those libellous statements. Given that we dont know who Al really is, I cant see how.  What damage would there be to his reputation?  :Biggrin: . 
If there is any doubt, Im not having a go at you Echidna or Oz.

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## ozwinner

> I think there is an assumption by the tradies here, that you have an IQ bordering on idiot savant.

  Sorry if I singled anyone out to make them feel like an "idiot savant". 
I just think everyone is, sorry. 
Al  :Shock:

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## ozwinner

> prepare and research unfortunately you will come across tradies like ozwinner, who will not want to work with you and who will rip you off,.

  Dude!!
Ive never ripped anyone off ever!! :mad: 
I have how ever in my ealier years been ripped badly by OB's.   

> sorry oz but its people like you that give other tradies a bad name. .

  Thank you. :mad:  
Al :mad:

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## echnidna

> As for those libellous statements. Given that we dont know who Al really is, I cant see how.  What damage would there be to his reputation? . 
> If there is any doubt, Im not having a go at you Echidna or Oz.

  I realise you're not having a shot Boban but the legal connection could be very easily and clearly established if Al feels the need.  :Smilie:

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## Dan_574

Firstly Iam sorry to oz especially for the rip off comment and the othet tradies if I offended I certainly wasnt meaning too. I dont know how I contradicted myself echidna. It was and still is a great achievement and I certainly can make a decision, I'd like to think that Im one of the owner builders that actually know a fair bit about building a house, not an expert but enough not to stuff tradies around, one thing I can ceratainly say when I built my house that it wasnt me that was stuffing people around but some of the tradies I chose and spoke to. I know there a hell of alot of great tradesman and I used a number of them.

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## Marc

Bin J
I did two extensive renovations to two houses whilst I was living in them.
B<!-- / message -->oth included two story, the first one was full brick and the top floor had a concrete structure and concrete flat roof, the second brick veneer two floors and an attic and in both cases I added some 200 m2 to the existing home. 
Having dealt with all the trades, having fired scores of bricklayers, plumbers sparkies and chippies for their incompetence, sloppiness and arrogance, I must say that the only satisfaction you can get out of building your own, is if you do it yourself. 
I did not get any satisfaction out of the work done by others because in their little twisted mind they saw me as a sucker rather than a customer, even when they had no hassles from me nor impairment to do the work due to lack of materials or anything of the sort, to the contrary, I had to repair their bad work after they left in many occasions since I saw the trouble of fixing it less than the trouble of kicking their backside.  
Tradesman that will come to do a one off job are either semi-retired and this are probably the best ones you can get, or... rejects that no builder wants. They are used to be kicked around by the builder and see your job as a holiday camp 
I can make a long litany of horror stories of bad trades people doing bad work, 
The concreter who cut the roof open to poor the roof slab, yet did not cover it so when the rain came the next day the whole house was flooded. 
The plumber who charged $900 to move a hot water system 10 meters and wanted cash because he needed to go rock climbing, the bricklayer who used 8/1 sand/cement in the mud so that the mix did not go off too quick and he had time to go 2 hours to the pub at lunch time. After firing him I had to re-do the lot myself. The electrician who left cut live wires inside the brick wall, the roof plumber who did not bend the top of the sheets under the capping so that the wind was blowing the rain right in, the floor polisher who worked himself in a corner and walked over his own job, the electrician who drilled 25 mill holes in my exposed beams to wire a light thinking I had yet to put the cealing up etc etc etc. 
However 
1. Is it a big hassle? 
I would call it a challenge. 
2. Was it / is it satisfying?
Only in so far as the job I did personally, and that was a lot, almost all the woodwork, including making my own windows doors, stairs etc. very satisfying in that sense. 
3. Is it major stressful
It depends on how thick your skin is, how tight your budget and how damaging a mistake may be. If losing a couple of thousand dollars will take your sleep away, think again. 
4. Were you working a normal job while you were owner building?
I was, yet I took weeks off at the time to do major work myself. 
5. Is there things you "cringe" about that you wish you'd got a builder to do?
Dealing with a builder is not much different than dealing with tradespeople. The builder also thinks you are a sucker, since he is used to be kicked around as a subcontractor by a bigger builder who sues him for every mistake, you are dessert for him and he will treat you accordingly. 
6. How do tradesmen interact with owner builders (especially women!) ie. are they condescending, are the more than willing to help, do they take you for a ride?
There are good tradies and there are bad ones. 
How will you know? You do not. 
As women you are losing from the start, since everybody knows that a women knows nothing about building. 
7. How _assertive_ do I need to be?
Buy a shot gun. 
8. Who are the best people to get free advice from? 
Your uncle builder. 
Otherwise look for renovation forums like this one: http://www.byohouse.com.au/forum/ http://forum.homeone.com.au/index.php http://www.renos.com.au/forum/index.php?&

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## ozwinner

> Here's a bit of a log of the problems I've had so far, just by way of illustration:  
> 3. Bricky starts to lay walls and discovers some of the footings are quite badly out of level. More bricks, more mortar, more grumbling.

  Why the hell is the brickie grumbling?
More money for him, or arent you paying him?? 
Al  :Biggrin:

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## boban

> As women you are losing from the start, since everybody knows that a women knows nothing about building.

  I didn't know you could say things like this  :Biggrin:   I'll try that one on my wife.

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## bitingmidge

> Why the hell is the brickie grumbling?
> More money for him, or arent you paying him?? 
> Al

   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   
P  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## ozwinner

Chill everyone.... 
I dont give a flying toss if I work for you or not.( prolly not )
Project builders pay less.
OB'S pay more.
I earn (lots) more doing work for Project builders, sausage builders I call em.
They churn the same crap out plan after plan.
But I get used to doing the same plan, less brain work, less hassle, more money.  :Cool:   
Ok.
I revise my first post.
By all means go ahead and build your own house, it will be fun, and you will save heaps of money. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## namtrak

At the end of the day it horses for courses. 
1.       Some people are good Owner Builders with the right motivations who do good, well organised work. 
2.        And some people are poor Owner Builders whose only motivation is to save money, are poorly organised and give subbies the tom tits. 
3.         And some Tradies are good tradies who are reliable, work professionally and have pride in their work. 
4.         And some Tradies shouldn't be allowed out of their house in the morning, make up things as they go along and rip people off with no conscience. 
Which one are you?  I reckon I come in under number 1. but I also reckon there is fair portion under number 2. as well!! 
Cheers

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## Sturdee

> As for those libellous statements. Given that we dont know who Al really is, I cant see how.  What damage would there be to his reputation? .

  Must disagree with you there Boban. I think most Victorian members know who Al is.   :Biggrin:   
Of course there are good tradesmen and bad ones, same as there are good builders and bad ones as well as OB who unfortunately are in a class of their own. There are horror stories available for all of them as well as good ones.  
The tradies here are expressing their views, not to have an argument but to help, so why the nastiness. :confused:  
As I said, if you have to ask these questions then you should go and learn before becoming an OB. 
Peter.

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## E. maculata

1-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50(but manages to anyway). 
2-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50. 
3-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50. 
4-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50. 
5-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50. 
6-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50. 
7-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50. 
8-find a builder whom is trustworthy, takes pride in his work and isn't looking to retire before 50. 
9-when you find him tell him his oldest son said G'day   :Wink: (I apologise to my 2 brothers whom are also builders, but boys it's the old pride in your work thing that lets you down again)

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## Gaza

i feel sorry for subys that are working on project homes, they get screwed to low fixed price rates and see the same crap every day, on the good side for them is regluar work and payments.  A few years back i put together a price for a major project home builder, i would have been doing 3 to 4 houses a week of timber floor laying then polishing.  At the end of the day i did not get the contract my price's were fair for a quality job, there is no point doing twice. 
Project home builders get rebates from the manufacters IE csr will rebate the builder % of the money paid for the product no matter who it was purchased from.

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## DavidG

Thanks every one. :confused: 
Here I am thinking about building a kit home, starting early next year and we have this discussion.
Make me wonder if it will be worth the trouble.  :Frown:   :eek:  :eek:   
At least I will be doing everything possible my self. 
except the sparkie and ?? plumber ?? 
(Do I need a plumber if not connected to town water???)

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## echnidna

Dunno about ACT but in vic a plumber isnt necessary if no town water and no local stormwater drainage systen

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## ozwinner

> Project home builders get rebates from the manufacters IE csr will rebate the builder % of the money paid for the product no matter who it was purchased from.

  Another one for the Mythbusters. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## Gaza

> Mythbusters

  This is for real, we know the guys at csr and they even have reps that go on to site to ensure that all CSR is used, also Tilling timber is now doing the same thing with there enginered wood products.  You have to be a BIG home builder for these % to add up to any thing decent.

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## Auspiciousdna

I watch a show on cable called property ladder, in which they produces a show around novice owner builders,  100% of them go over budget and schedule and many of them dont make enough in real wages to justify the stress they put themselves through. 
 Some make 1000 pounds for 6 months work and very few clean up 40000 pounds around the same time frame and there are the ones who make a good wages. But they all finish the job and almost all do a good job at that! 
My observation of the reason why some do better than others are the false expectations of some and their inability to understand the real cost of building, materials and regulation; if you allow $8ooo for a kitchen but want a $20000 kitchen, its just not going to work out when you fork over the other $12000 causing your budget to blow out! Same with tradies if you allow $200 a day for tradies that charge between $300 and $400 a day GST inclusive its going to bite big time! 
Or believing you can build a first floor addiction but failing to check and see if your footing can take the extra load or your neighbors are cool with it or anything else you might want to do!  
Draw up a budget, a realistic one, if you want to spend 10 grand on a kitchen go see what you get for 10 grand, you dont wait till you need one before you start running around on the hunt for something thats not there and the same with tradies case them up before you need them not when you need them, same for the rest of the project. (Tiles, bath, basin, roofing, flooring, door, windows and so on) 
Basically if you are going to renovate, do you home work before you even think of starting! 
Im confident I can perform brain surgery, what I not sure about, is the longevity of the patient.

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## ozwinner

> Same with tradies if you allow $200 a day for tradies that charge between $300 and $400 a day GST inclusive its going to bite big time!

  Hahahaha,  :Biggrin:   
Send me the names of the tradies, I need cheap labour. 
Al  :Biggrin:

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## Gaza

> property ladder

  That show is a classic, i laugh  every time i whatch it. The things the do some times make me wonder about how stupid the people are who are buying these places.

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## Dan_574

havent seen a thread that causes so much emotion, so in summary tradies will tell you not to owner build and owner builders say go for it, is this the general consensus

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## elphingirl

Wow - what a debate!
I think all the general risks/benefits of owner building have been more than adequately covered, so I will just contribute a bit from a female owner-builder perspective. I (together with my male partner) have met some fantastic, professional, helpful, flexible and honest subbies in the course of building our house (granted it is in the country so perhaps it's a bit easier).  And some we won't hire again. We have also met some that we instinctively did not trust, and hence didn't hire. 
Never once did we make a decision based on quotation alone - they were just to tell us if the quote was in the ball park. We have never had to withold money, we always managed to resolve problems at the time (through effective organisation and supervision and being really clear about the specific requirements from the start). 
Occasionally I had some communication problems with a couple of tradies, due to my gender, but it wasn't a huge problem, we just did the practical thing and my partner took on the role of dealing with them.
Hard work, no weekends for months, very expensive. If I did it again, I would probably find an excellent builder that I could communicate really well with, (wait the 12 noths for them to be free because they're so good), and pay them enough to do a good job.
Good luck, Justine

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## boban

> Hahahaha,   
> Send me the names of the tradies, I need cheap labour. 
> Al

  On a day labour rate, there are plenty available within the 300-400 range.

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## craigb

Who would be a builder?  
A bugger of a job I reckon. 
Every morning you wake up you know that your day is going to be full of hassles  that have to be solved. 
On the one side you've got the client wanting to know why you haven't been onsite for a week (they don't know about the other two jobs you are juggling) 
on the other you've got the subbies wanting to know what they are supposed to do next and by the way, when do you plan on paying them?   
I've been through a couple of renno's, I've not built from scratch yet, and I have to say I've hated each one of them. 
I hated the tradies turning up at sparrow's fart every morning with their bloody radioes blaring out some right wing wanker's opinionated garbage. 
I hated being put on the spot because "suddenly" an unforseen circumstance had arisen that absolutely had to be solved right now   :Rolleyes:   
Would I be an owner builder? 
I think I'd rather put my head in a vice.

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## echnidna

Its really a matter of personalities, those that can't handle problems and those that let problems roll off their backs 
The tradesmen here have only pointed out that there are pitfalls for owner builders and that it can be a frustrating task for some personalities. 
If you get frustrated every time the person you asked for a quote doesn't show up then its not your scene. (btw the same crap happens to builders too its not an exclusive OB thing) 
Other personalities will owner build and do it very well.

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## Dan_574

I think a big thing that has come out is that you need to plan and research and have a fall back plan.  The one thing that no one has brought up is trying to get money out of the bank as an owner builder.  Due to the reputations of owner builders the banks are very reluctant to fork over the money.   Some want 25% of the cost and you must use this before they give the loan.

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## boban

> This is for real, we know the guys at csr and they even have reps that go on to site to ensure that all CSR is used, also Tilling timber is now doing the same thing with there enginered wood products. You have to be a BIG home builder for these % to add up to any thing decent.

  You're right Gaza, and, when you build a display home, it costs you next to nothing in materials.

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## DavidG

So - given the info above - I should be Ok building a kit home provided I do not get any subbies in. 
Looks like I will have to do without electricity but I can have water.  (no town water or sewer but mains electricity)  :Biggrin:

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## bitingmidge

> Its really a matter of personalities, those that can't handle problems and those that let problems roll off their backs 
> (btw the same crap happens to builders too its not an exclusive OB thing)
> .

  Spot on Bob! 
Why hasn't anyone mentioned Workplace Health and Safety yet???   The ultimate Catch 22:  If you are aware of your obligations you'd never do it, if you aren't. . . . . you shouldn't even think about it. 
Just back from a visit to my favourite site: (The one where we got the infringement notice for the non-functioning number plate light on the non-roadgoing unregistered big mother of a crane). 
Today's special: An "Improvement" notice from the WH&S genius, because the Plumber didn't have his ABN on his certificate!!    I've never seen anyone fall over an ABN before, but I guess that'd be the only place to safely store them. 
(ABN = Australian Business No, required for GST reporting purposes!) 
And some people do this for FUN???? 
P (I do!)  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## Clinton1

What makes you think that you can do it cheaper than:
the person that probably has a trade, did a "Grad Dip" in building, and now specialises in building in a competitive market as their chosen profession? 
Is my question making sense? Could someone do your job, without training or experience and do your job just as well, without making mistakes? 
You reckon you are scared of getting ripped off - get more quotes, and start to try to justify the cost breakdowns.  
I think you should be careful of the opinions from owner/builders about "how easy it all is" NO OFFENCE MEANT all you O/B's, its just that if these opinions come from those O/B's that have done a few houses, they have learnt their mistakes, and may not remember the initial pain/cost. Try to get them talking about the first house.... different story. 
How about getting the uncle to step in an help or run things?

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## boban

Isn't that a catch 22 situation Clinton.  You can only get to house number 3 or 4 after you did number 1. 
I get what your saying, but cottage building is not difficult. If you look at most large project builders, the supervisor is rarely on site. They rely heavily on the tradies to do their job properly. You get the right tradies and the jobs so much easier.  
If you can plan and organise you can build a house. 
I wonder if the tradies here would build their own house, given that most are not qualified buillders?   
I know my situation is different but you can save money. Example, my sister and her neighbour built at the same time. Both blocks virtually identical, sloping heavily from front to back. She paid $7000 for excavation and the neighbour paid $50,000.  
Perhaps I should have pocketed an extra $43,000. I should add $3000 for my father's supervision but I would be overpaying him. This is an example of where some builders pocket huge dollars. Another is on pier holes. Site costs are the hidden killer. 
My sister was quoted between $520 and $560K to build her house by other builders before she decided to go the owner builder route. She paid $270K to finish it. To this you can add the labour component of the timber fixout, painting, tiling, concreting, kitchen and my supervision. I've estimated this to be $100K at most. So I dont understand the view that you will not save money if you build yourself.

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## Clinton1

*Sorry, that last post of mine will probably come across all wrong.* 
I'm suffering from the flu, tired and all grumpy because I spent most of last night trying to stop flooding, the rest stressing about the damage. The house I bought recently had an extention done that was finished on the cheap by a bodgy OB who stuffed up a rather simple concept that I haven't got round to fixing yet. Yes, external paving does have to be below the dampcourse and doors of the building it abuts... simply theory really. 
So I should have said...
You will 'save' the builders fee. The question is, will you be able to save the builders fee, after all there may be a reason that people pay professionals a fee to do a job.  
See, all sarcastic and caustic again.
I'm going to bed, perchance to dream of paving to rip up, levels to drop, drainage to install and paving to relay.
Hey, Al - wanna do some paving free??? Pay me back for the trauma of rude foil photos? 
Last word before bed - renos made me realise the meaning of the saying "a month of Sundays". I think that as satisfying as being an O/B will be (and I do intend to build the 'final' house I want), there will be many, many months (years) of trying to work 7 days a week and to get 8 days work done in that week. 
Next time your uncle says "its all easy, go for it", tell him to put up and come and show you how its done. After all, if he's done a few houses, he's not really a rank amateure anymore is he, more a semi-skilled professional. Seems like a solution.

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## rick_rine

Well said Clinton1    

> What makes you think that you can do it cheaper than:
> the person that probably has a trade, did a "Grad Dip" in building, and now specialises in building in a competitive market as their chosen profession? 
> Is my question making sense? Could someone do your job, without training or experience and do your job just as well, without making mistakes? 
> I think you should be careful of the opinions from owner/builders about "how easy it all is" NO OFFENCE MEANT all you O/B's, its just that if these opinions come from those O/B's that have done a few houses, they have learnt their mistakes, and may not remember the initial pain/cost. Try to get them talking about the first house.... different story.

  Hey , does any one read my posts ? I for one have been saying this all along and trying my darnest as an owner builder to convince people not to do it for many of the reasons stated here . It is hard . It is a job for professionals . It will cost you more .
Just dont do it ! 
P.s from the interest shown in this thread I have been trying to set up a poll but am just to computer illiterate . Can someone post a poll , Would you be an owner builder ?
Rick

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## silentC

> Why the hell is the brickie grumbling?
> More money for him, or arent you paying him?? 
> Al

   Hell no! He's my Uncle and he's doing it for free. Do you think I'm silly?  :Biggrin:  
Boban, re the concretor, he IS the project manager!! Not for much longer though, there's been a coup. Never a dull moment.... 
The only thing I would add to the debate is that if you are going to do it, you need to be able to get on the site regularly because things have a tendency to get out of hand if you turn your back for even a minute. 
And don't listen to brickies, they are like the drummers of the building world  :Tongue:

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## echnidna

And disregard the I.T. OB's too, their software doesn't actually hammer in even one nail  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## silentC

Ah, but it pays for the nails and the hammer though  :Wink:

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## namtrak

> What makes you think that you can do it cheaper than:
> the person that probably has a trade, did a "Grad Dip" in building, and now specialises in building in a competitive market as their chosen profession?

  This is the budget I built for our owner built reno.  Sorry for the lost formatting. So far I have come in under budget on all items, apart from the wiring which came in about $2,000 over.  The total cost includes nearly $29,000 in unforeseens.  I had multiple quotes for most items in my budget and estimated the labour component at $37 per hour per person for labourers who are willing to be paid $25 per hour. 
The cheapest quote we had from a builder was for $218,000.  We will get the job done for somewhere around $110,000. 
How does an owner builder save money?  I don't need to make a profit.  I don't even need to pay myself for my hours!! 
Where I 'lose money' is when I do those extra little bits I want which I can afford cause of the savings we are making. 
Cheers 
17/05/2005						
Building Materials		Product	Amount	Unit	Price per Unit	Cost
Flooring	Timber Flooring	Cypress 80mm	900	lm	$5	$4,500
	Decking	Merbau 80mm	300	lm	$4	$1,200
	Polyurethrane	Tung Oil	20	litres	$20	$400
					Sub-Total	$6,100
Roofing	Roofing	Colorbond	200	sqm	$14	$2,800
	Guttering	Colorbond	40	lm	$7	$280
	Capping	Colorbond	35	lm	$9	$315
	Valleys	Colorbond	18	lm	$10	$180
	Fascia (house)	Colorbond	65	lm	$7	$455
	Brackets		Mixed	Total	$200	$200
	Sizalation		140	sqm	$2	$280
					Sub-Total	$4,510
Footings	Concrete					$2,000
	Reo					$150
	Bricks	Boral	1600	each	$1	$1,120
	Concrete Stumps	100 by 100	30	each	$30	$900
	Cement					$200
	Bearers	100 by 75 f8 hw	38	lm	$10	$380
	Floor Joists	100 by 50 f8 hw	180	lm	$9	$1,620
					Sub-Total	$6,370
Framing	Framing	90 by 35	220	lm	$3	$660
	Trusses		52	each	$150	$7,800
					Sub-Total	$8,460
External Covering	Cement Sheeting	Harditex	80	sqm	$20	$1,600
	Render	Render-it	540	kg	$1	$540
	Trims	External Corners	6	each	$5	$30
	Paint	Exterior	40	litre	$15	$600
					Sub-Total	$2,770
Internal Cladding	Plasterboard	Gyprock	120	sqm	$30	$3,600
	Cornice	Gyprock	60	lm	$10	$600
	Paint	Interior	40	litre	$15	$600
	Insulation Roof	3.3 Batts	10	bags	$40	$400
	Insulation Walls	2.2 Batts	5	bags	$30	$150
	Attic Ladder		1	each	$500	$500
					Sub-Total	$5,850
Electricals	Pole	RHS 75 by 75	5	lm	$40	$200
	Switch Box		1	each	$450	$450
					Sub-Total	$650
					Sub-Total	$34,710 
Add-in Materials						
Windows	Sliding windows		3	each	$800	$2,400
	Glass bricks		300	each	$6	$1,800
Doors	Front Door		1	each	$400	$400
	Tri-slide door		1	each	$3,000	$3,000
	Internal Doors		2	each	$100	$200
	Bi-fold door		1	each	$250	$250
Electricals	Fluoro Downlights		15	each	$30	$450
	Halogen Downlights		8	each	$20	$160
	Switches		20	each	$20	$400
Kitchen	Dishwasher		1	each	$1,300	$1,300
	Stove/Oven/Air		1	each	$1,500	$1,500
	Sink		1	each	$350	$350
	Taps		1	each	$90	$90
	Kitchen Island		1	each	$750	$750
	Washer/Dryer		1	each	$1,800	$1,800
	Pantry		1	each	$500	$500
	Fittings		1	set	$400	$400
	Cabinets		1	each	$3,000	$3,000
Ensuite	Toilet		1	each	$300	$300
	Shower		1	each	$1,000	$1,000
	Basin		1	each	$500	$500
	Taps		1	each	$90	$90
	Floor tiles		8	sqm	$45	$360
	Wall tiles		15	sqm	$45	$675
Built-ins	Bedroom		2	each	$500	$1,000
	Linen Press		1	each	$500	$500
	Ironing Centre		1	each	$500	$500
	Entertainment		1	each	$500	$500
					Sub-Total	$24,175 
Labour	Brickie		1	total	$2,500	$2,500
	Plumbing		1	total	$7,000	$7,000
	Electricals		1	total	$2,500	$2,500
	Labouring		500	hours	$75	$37,500
	Pest		1	total	$1,200	$1,200
	Floor Sanding		1	total	$300	$300
	Kitchen		1	total	$2,000	$2,000
					Sub-Total	$53,000 
Sundries	Licencing/Fees		1		$2,000	$2,000
	Move Air Con		1		$500	$500
	Rubbish Removal		4		$150	$600
	Insurance		1		$2,000	$2,000
					Sub-Total	$5,100 
		Building Materials	$34,710			
		Add-in Materials	$24,175			
		Labour	$53,000			
		Sundries	$5,100			
		Fail Safe	$23,397			
		TOTAL	$140,382

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## Clinton1

Just posing the question. 
If the reply was - I've got the skills needed to do the work, and I've participated in enough jobs to feel confident - Then it seems an easy choice. 
Bin J said on another post:  

> The reason I ask is that my husband and I have been planning an extension / renovation for 3 years, have just got a quote back and our whole lives have been turned upside down! :eek: *This being the first time we've built anything*, so we've got nothing to compare prices to, except my dad (owner-builder extraordinare), where he can do everything for less than 1/2 the cost of everyone else  . And since he doesn't live close to us, and he's in the middle of building his own house (again), using him is out of the question at the moment!

  I have ASSumed that she is trying to achieve the extention and beat the price quoted.
I thought I'd throw in a question, so BinJ can put it into her decision process. I think that it is a fair question, and it was a question - if it appeared like an accusation, that wasn't meant.
Yes, there are lots of great OB's out there that achieve spectacular results, under budget. I've helped out a fair few mates that are O/B, and if they can have me work for them and still have the house pass inspection - they must be genius's!
I help out 'cause I am getting my experience for when I might go the O/B route.
Lots more stuff it up the first time due to lack of experience. I am sure that those that keep on eventually get better.
I thought the question was relevant when the person seeking opinions says that they may not be able to afford the professionals, and are deciding if they can do it cheaper, with little experience.
I may have read between the lines too much.

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## Barry_White

This is a touchy subject 90 replies in one day

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## silentC

Yeah and I wonder how many of those who replied have actually ever done it?  :Wink:

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## echnidna

> Yeah and I wonder how many of those who replied have actually ever done it?

  OK Kiddies you heard the man!  :Biggrin:  
hands up those who have built a house or major reno. 
Echnidna - YES (many)

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## silentC

Yes and second one's on the way....

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## Barry_White

Yes and only spent $350 on outside labour.

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## Pulpo

Getting good tradies and or builders is the key. 
Whether you OB or not is not really the issue. 
I have seen hopeless builders and tradies.

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## Skew ChiDAMN!!

Yup. Built a 20sq mud-brick in da bush, the ex got that in settlement. Built a suburban 12sq. w/board, the govt. got that as part of the freeway plan. Needless to say, I lost out big-time on that 'un. Built an 18sq 9" brick, had to sell up as the ol' man had a stroke and the ol' girl needed help. The only tradies involved were sparkies & plumbers and only then for final connects & signing off. 
The next'll be another mud-brick, I'm guesstimating it at about 40sq., what with the modern tendency to include shed/garage/eaves/robe space in the claimed squarage.  :Smilie:   With my luck I'm not sure it'll ever happen though... 
All along I've been assisting other friends with their own projects... either as a pseudo-consultant or a builder. For a small fee, of course.  :Biggrin:

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## namtrak

Doing the 2nd one now.

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## Sturdee

Yes, first a major extension than a major renovation. Only used a plumber and sparky for the finishing of as I did the roughins myself/ 
I also used a roof tiler as he did the job,including supply of roof tiles, cheaper than if I bought the tiles myself.  :Biggrin:    
Peter.

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## Eastie

> *...*The house I bought recently had an extention done that was finished on the cheap by a bodgy OB who stuffed up a rather simple concept that I haven't got round to fixing yet...

  Sounds extremely familiar.  For every dodgey builder and tradie there are literaly hundreds of dodgey OB's and DIY'ers going about doing illegal building works - some out of stupidity, others simply doing "good illegal works" out of contempt for crap building legislation - the likes of which require building permits for removal of one stud and insertion to a 90x45 lintel to install a 680mm wide window but not for moving and replacement of say a 270x45x3500 mm F27 lintel?   
go figure.... 
In my current circumstances it has paid off - after obtaining a section 32 when buying my house I got in a builder, sparkie and plumber and found a number of illegal building, plumbing and electrical works, all of which performed by the vendor.  Upon receipt of the reports the agent was required to dislose the defects to the other buyers. As a result the vendor was prepared to settle for what i wanted to pay, not what they were asking for.  Tears for them!

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## Bin J

Wow!! Thanks everyone for their input - although some was not what I wanted to hear!  :Biggrin:   And I apologise if it caused too much angry - it definately wasn't my intention to stir the pot! 
Unfortunately I'm still on a see-saw going from one end to the other.  
I think we might haggle with the builder - get him to tell us what we could do - ie demolition, labouring, whatever he says - then, by ourselves, as my husband puts it "do the glory part" - the finishing - painting, tiling, floors, maybe even the plaster (but get someone else to tidy it up), pergola etc.  
Still don't know though - I know what my dad'll say! He will go :eek: :eek: :eek: ! 
Perhaps with this renovation, if we learn lots, then we can think about being "PROPER" owner-builders in the years to come???! 
Thanks again!

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## Dan_574

Yes got occupancy last july here she is, did every thing but electrical, roofing, plumbing and plasterer join setting and sanding.  Put the concrete footings all steel work and every thing else with help of course

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## Gaza

> actually ever done it

  Work as suby for OB plus big builders (ie Multiplex)
Built complete office as OB (inlcd all joinery)
Done loads of minor renos to parents house
Am getting Builders Lic early next year, but will not be doing domestic building work.

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## boban

Yes I've done a few and doing a few.

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## rick_rine

> Yup. Built a 20sq mud-brick in da bush, the ex got that in settlement. Built a suburban 12sq. w/board, the govt. got that as part of the freeway plan. Needless to say, I lost out big-time on that 'un. Built an 18sq 9" brick, had to sell up as the ol' man had a stroke and the ol' girl needed help. The only tradies involved were sparkies & plumbers and only then for final connects & signing off. 
> The next'll be another mud-brick, I'm guesstimating it at about 40sq., what with the modern tendency to include shed/garage/eaves/robe space in the claimed squarage.   With my luck I'm not sure it'll ever happen though... 
> All along I've been assisting other friends with their own projects... either as a pseudo-consultant or a builder. For a small fee, of course.

   
 very impressive .
 I built a mud brick stable and called it " veryun stable "    :Smilie:

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## Skew ChiDAMN!!

> very impressive .
>  I built a mud brick stable and called it " veryun stable "

  Yeah, they're not exactly low-maintenance in the southern states. I drove past the orig. mud-brick not long ago, just for old memories. It's in shocking condition... someone doesn't know squat about looking after it!  :Frown:  
That's partly why my next one'll be so large; it'll be colonial style, with a ruddy great verandah right 'round it! I'd really like to try my hand at adobe w/sapling posts but I doubt I'd get council permission to build one 'round here.

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## rick_rine

Really it was just a pun skew . It is still going strong but its only been 10 years .

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## cellist

> Further to my post (Renovation / m2) . . . I've had my dad on the phone again, trying to convince me to "owner build", which was the plan in the first place, but the builder friend who was going to help got too busy. 
> After reading the below . . .     
> . . . I thought I'd ask - for those who have owner-built - why, beside cost, would you do this? 
> Well, you get to enforce standards to some degree. Certainly, you will care more about the finish of, say, a top coat of plaster, the fit of a cabinet, or the exact tap set you choose more than any builder or supervisor. You are the one that will be living there! The "supervisor" or builder walks away with a job that is required to be at (this is the scary expression) "industry standard," which is pretty lousy.
> 1. Is it a big hassle? 
> Sure. But most things in life that are worth doing are hassles. The thing is, the hassle results in something worth hassling over. It's not like dealing with your taxes or something like that, where the hassle is only worth it when it's over...and with nothing much to show for it. 
> 2. Was it / is it satisfying?
> Indeed it was. It's one of those things that I think every person should experience in life, if they feel that they are capable of doing it. I've touched pretty much every square centimetre of this house at some point, and there's a quiet satisfaction there that would not otherwise have been mine to exprience. 
> 3. Is it majorly stressful
> ...

   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## ozwinner

> Yes I've done a few and doing a few.

  You arent allowed to do more than 1 in Vic, and should imagine these laws will be nation wide before long. http://www.buildingcommission.com.au...asp?casid=3117 
Al  :Smilie:

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## echnidna

> You arent allowed to do more than 1 in Vic, and should imagine these laws will be nation wide before long. http://www.buildingcommission.com.au...asp?casid=3117 
> Al

  One every 3 years Oz if you have a look.

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## ozwinner

Thats what I ment. 
No more multiples, if you do more than one at a time, IMHO I think you should be registered anywho.. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## boban

> You arent allowed to do more than 1 in Vic, and should imagine these laws will be nation wide before long. http://www.buildingcommission.com.au...asp?casid=3117 
> Al

  Its the same in NSW except ours is once every 5 years as far as I am aware.  I am also licenced to build.  
Yes, multiple qualifications before you ask the next question.

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## ozwinner

So your not an owner builder in the true sense?? 
But a licened builder. 
Im confused?
Giving out advise as if you are an owner builder? 
Al :confused:

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## boban

Yes Oz but I was an owner builder 3 times before I got my qualifications.  I did reveal this in another thread.

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## ozwinner

> Yes Oz but I was an owner builder 3 times before I got my qualifications. I did reveal this in another thread.

  Maybe I was not here that day, or didnt read your post. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## silentC

Yes, they tell me it's the lime that does it  :Biggrin:

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## rod1949

I have only read pages 1, 2 and 8.  Whilst there are some good comments there is also a lot of negativity, probably why they are on this site cause they have no work. 
I say go for it girl.  Show the negatives you can do it.

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## Sturdee

> I say go for it girl.  Show the negatives you can do it.

  
And when she finds out that she made the biggest and most expensive mistake of her life will you be there to help her out. :confused:  
I haven't seen any negativity, only common sense advice.  BTW I'm here because I don't have to work anymore.  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:    
Peter.

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## ozwinner

> Yes, they tell me it's the lime that does it

  Cant be, I dont use it. 
Al  :Biggrin:

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## bitingmidge

> Cant be, I dont use it. 
> Al

  Wot, not even in evening aperitif???  
P   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## ozwinner

Wots my teef got to do wiv it?  
Al :confused:

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## silkwood

I work in retail in the building supply area, so I have consistent contact with builders, owner builders and tradespeople. Bottom line is.. you're all correct. Being an owner builder can be a good way of saving money, and a terrific way of losing it and ruining relationships. Conversely many have great experiences having their home built for them, yet many others have the wost time of their lives. A few points from my perspective... 
1. People who are good at organising generally will have an easier time of it. 
2. If you think your pretty handy at renovating and want to control the trades to improve the work, you're on the wrong track (probably the reason many tradies will not work for owner builders). 
3. If you are not confident that you can calmly handle crises STOP NOW!! 
4. Being assertive at the wrong time is a recipe for disaster.
4 (B) Being reticent at the wrong time can be even worse! 
5. There is much good advice avaialble, sort of for free. I help many customers with free information which often saves them dollars and hassles. Thing is, I give more of this information to those who support me by purchasing from me. I regularly have people coming in after advise, getting goods from elsewher then coming back to ask how to fit them! Surprisingly I am far less forthcoming in these events. 
6. I have seen people who know nothing about building have terrific experiences as owner builders and even save some money (don't expect to save huge amounts even in the best circumstances). They were those who could communicate well and politely, did'nt mind hard work, were willing to put loads of extra hours in and did their research BEFORE they went ahead with the next job. 
7. No tradesperson is going to be happy dealing with your problems because you didn't know what you were doing (goods incorrect, tiles not available, didn't let them know you changed your mind and went for mixers rather than standard taps...). They will place you last on their priorities, and rightly so. 
Think about what your time, sanity and relationships are worth, it might be better to pay the money and retain your existing lifestyle (to an extent). On the other hand you may have a rewarding, financially satisfying experience. 
Cheers,

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## Keef

I am 2 years into my owner building project. Predictably I am overbudget, over time and pretty much over the whole thing. If there was a way to turn back the clock so that I had never got into this situation.......
Final nail in the coffin is finding out that in order to sell up (which I may have to) I must take out warranty insurance and even then I may be liable for the cost of any defects that develop in the next 6 years.
I think a poll would reveal that most owner builder projects result in strained finances and relationships. 
Keef

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## Jill

This question is similar to the following ones: 
'Marriage: Yes or No?'; and 'Children: Yes or No?'; 'To homeschool your kids: Yes or No? 
People are different in personality type, tolerance of stress, skill levels/intelligence, etc. etc. - and then throw in the individual variables of: finances available, circumstances like time available, energy levels, stickability, enthusiasm, stamina, the ability to dream & make the dreams reality, etc. Then throw in extra variables like - marriages/pregnancies/injuries/caring for an elderly parent/stability of relationships, etc. that can change your circumstances in every way, overnight.  
It is totally an individual thing, really - and evidently what can be one of the most satisfying work/creative activities of a lifetime for some, can be the biggest nightmare for others.  
Do your homework - on every factor, and with every part of the project, and make sure you have access to an additional 10 - 20% of your original (well researched & detailed, based on quotes) financial estimate. Building smaller, in stages, is sometimes the better option for some people.  
There are those who love the challenge and have the skills to do every legal part of the project, and others who would be better to get the pro's in. You need to know what is best for you as an individual/couple.  
For me, I am happily building away (alongside my husband) on our second home. For us, it works, but I totally understand that for others, it doesn't. Each to their own. 
Cheers, 
Jill

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## MrFixIt

Hi  

> Too many ppl watch them lifestlye shows where Jamie Jurry flashes his pearly whites, and hey presto, the job is done like magic. 
> Well the bad news, I dont think his girly hands are up to it for starters, he may chip a nail or worse, get a blister. 
> What you dont see behind the scenes are the hoard of real tradies doing all the work.
> Yes I know, it all looks like plain sailing on tv. 
> Al

  That is SOOOOOOOO true  :Biggrin:

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## cosmoad

Do a Tafe course first and then enjoy the pleasure of your accomplishments. Charging double rates for owner builders by tradesman is  outrageous. I built my own house and saved heaps. Use of a qualified tradesman for performing work should not be a problem if the Tradesman arranges his own materials, and you manage the whole of the building process. There is numerous literature out there to help the budding owner Builder. One very important piece of information. Get a quote for the work first and stick to it. Do as much as the manual work you can. Some of the work that you can do is.
1. Painting
2. Sealing concrete walls.
3. Tiling.
4. Fitting Gyprock to walls and ceilings with a friend.
5. Core fill and Structural steel placement
6. Landscaping.
7.Installing Windows and Doors. Leave Door Jambs to pro's if not confident.
8. Screw down the Roof.
9. Electrical Work if you have a licence. 
Also with owner Builer Licence I was able to purchase materials and Hardware at Trade prices. ( Savings in my Pocket) 
I am now starting a large shed and have employed sub contractors to lay the slab and brickwork. The rest is mine. Cant wait.

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## bigdazza

To OB or not to OB???? 
I am just finishing up a 70m2 extension to my home as an OB. Bearing in mind I am a structural engineer, so I do know a bit about building and also have industry contacts.  
I would not recommend it to a novice in the current climate. Tradies have heaps of work on and unless you know them your job will not get priority.  
I have engaged a construction foreman who has organised most of the trades and also the materials for the job. I have paid him an hourly rate to do this and it has worked really well, although I have to fit in with his other commitments. 
Even with all these advantages, we have still found the whole process reasonably stressful. In hindsight the $$$ savings will personally be worth it, but be wary it could end up costing you just a much if not more if you dont do your homework. There are a lot of hidden costs to look out for. 
Best case scenario is a 15-20% cost saving unless you do a lot of the finishing off work yourself. The extra stress and loss of family time may not be worth it depending on your personal situation. 
Good Luck.

----------

