# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  The Not So Great Electrical Debate

## watson

We seem to clog up each electrical thread with an endless debate.
So here's a thread where you can go for it without boring question askers witless.  *PLEASE KEEP THE MEMBERS QUESTION THREADS CLEAR OF THIS STUFF * I'll start off by saying........

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## chrisp

A thread! I think we need a sub forum. 
I'll start off ... 
We have heard a lot about the "standards" and the "regulations" in Australia.  Standards are different from regulations.  Standards set out how the work should be done, whereas the regulations set out who can do the work. 
For example, Australia and NZ use essentially the same _standards_ but different _regulations_. 
I'd be interested to hear from others about the _standards_ and _regulations_ in other parts of the word.  What is required in the way of training in your part of the world?  How hard is it to enter the electrical field, or to do your own electrical wiring? 
Chris

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## Master Splinter

Aww, geeze you're a killjoy Watson!     :Biggrin:   
I love baiting the Abominable "Noooo!" man - it's like shooting fish in a barrel!! 
Pic related.

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## watson

Its a dirty job..........but someone's got to do it  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## Honorary Bloke

> I'd be interested to hear from others about the _standards_ and _regulations_ in other parts of the word.  What is required in the way of training in your part of the world?  How hard is it to enter the electrical field, or to do your own electrical wiring? 
> Chris

  
In South Carolina (USA), you are required to have 2 years experience as an employee employed to perform electrical services (apprenticeship, that is) and to pass 2 written examinations, one on the technical aspects (including the Electrical Code) and one on Commercial Business Law. No coursework is required.   
The resulting license allows for residential and commercial work up to maximum dollar amounts and on private property only. Electrical work on public property or for a utility requires a different license.    :Smilie:

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## chrisp

Thanks Bob. 
What about doing your own electrical work?  Is it allowed in South Carolina?

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## Ashore

The Australian Government decided when it reduced the manning requirements for australian ships to come in line with overseas practice that a *6* week course was needed to bring marine engineers up to a standard to maintain , overhaul, replace as necessary, build , fit new installations , modify as necessary all the electrical , eltronic, equipment on a vessel, including generation and generating equipment , ferquency and voltage regulation , switch boards , breakers , fuses, etc etc including all the domestic whithin the accomodation.
and that is dealing with 3.3kva down to 5 volt including 415 and 240 volt using a two wire system 
And yet by the *closed shop* regulations, and often quoted rules, ashore I cant even after 27 years hands on, change a power point, and you get people on here say it isn't a closed shop , the regs in this country are to protect an inefficient industry, 
Question : we allow fruit pickers in as to reduce costs why not australians with equivelant qualifications to be allowed to carry out electrical work
Answer : Its a closed shop to protect an inefficient industry

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## Honorary Bloke

> Thanks Bob. 
> What about doing your own electrical work?  Is it allowed in South Carolina?

  Of course.  :Biggrin:   On your own home. But you are supposed to get it inspected when finished. (For large jobs, this happens, for everyday repairs it does not happen.)  In addition, if you are adding circuits to the panel or such you are supposed to get a permit ahead of time for the work (and pay a fee). The fee pays for the inspection, among other things. Our electrical inspectors are government employees.  
I have had several sparkies over the years quote two prices for a job, one if I insist they get a permit and a lower one if I simply want the job done properly but without all the paperwork.  
Here is another example: Three years ago I replaced my electric cooktop with gas, so needed a 110V power point under the cabinet for the gas starter (the old cooktop ran on 220V). I had pulled the old range hood out and capped off the wires in the wall. The sparky came to add the powerpoint, pulled the wire up to the range hood height and told me to simply cap them all together when I got around to installing the range hood.  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## Dan574

hi Bob, 
My god i cant believe  you do your own electrical work, and your still alive. :Eek:  
There must be hundreds of deaths from electrocution there.   :Biggrin:

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## Bros

> For example, Australia and NZ use essentially the same _standards_ but different _regulations_.

  Not quite correct as each state uses different regulations and there are considerable differences.

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## nicm

Yes, the disclaimer is there.
If the cable cops don' want to give out advice, don't post !
No point regurgitating the same 'get a sparky or die' warnings over and over and over again.
We get the message now leave us  DIY's alone. If you want to help  and give advice so the job is properly done your are welcome. 
Nic

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## blonk

Here is an example of some of the frustrations I get with Electrical stuff on this forum   

> I'm just wondering if it's possible to get a mech that will fit in a standard plate which will switch two seperate circuits at once? ie one switch turns on the bathroom lights and the extractor fan at the same time. If so, what should I ask for? 
> Mick

  The Reply   

> An Electrician   
> Sorry I'm not understanding why you are trying to do it though a switch 
> Why not get your electrician to parallel the fan off the light???

  I thought it was a perfectly relevant question to clarify the original post, yet here was the response   

> Nev,
> I'm asking for the name of the switch (if one is available) as I wish to purchase a couple on my account at the electrical wholesalers. I buy all my own gear at probably the same prices or better than most one man show sparkies. I get my sparky to work labour only. I don't want to hassle him with a minor detail like this and will buy the switches and get him to install them next time he's on my job. *If you don't want to disclose this arcane secret, that's fine by me. Perhaps someone more helpful will come along* or perhaps I'll have a dig through my catalogues or perhaps I'll ask the bloke on the back counter. 
> I don't want the fans paralleled off the lights as they are already installed on power circuits. It will be easier to simply have them both switched through the same switch as the two switches are currently side by side. I know it's either a double pole or a double throw but I can never remember which is which. 
> Mick

  Sure, he went on to clarify the original post, which would have gotten him the right answer in the first place, but, as soon as the answer posted was not what he wanted, BANG, attack the electrician. From the time I have been on this forum, my opinion is that many don't like the answer being "Get an electrcian to look at it" "The wiring Rules state" etc. etc. Unfortunately these are often the correct, and legal answer. When I am looking for information, I want to know the right answer to my questions. Sometimes that won't give me a walkthrough of the job, but advise me to get in a professional to advise me. I agree that the restrictions on DIY electrical work may be overkill, but I don't agree that a "closed shop" is the reason. Does anyone know why it became a licensed trade in the first place? It may have been to "close the shop" at the time, I don't know, but I believe safety is the main driving factor now. Plenty of people out in the world are more than capable of doing thier own work, perfectly well, but there are just as many that can't. I have just renovated my own home, and the state of the wiring was appalling. Evidence of hot joints, and dodgy installation, just waiting to start a fire, or electrocute someone. At the moment it is illegal for DIY electrical work, so it is sometimes difficult to give advice other than, to get in an electrician to check the installation. There may be a better system, but it's not the system we have, so please stop telling me, "In New Zealand they can" If you are so passionate, start lobbying to have the regulations changed to allow DIY electrical work. Some years ago, Restricted Licences were introduced to allow other trades to do some electrical work e.g. replacing hot water heaters, and doing isolations on electrical motors, so it's not impossible to allow it for owner/builders or DIY on your own home. Sure I'm not liable for advice I give here (in theory) but I don't want to give someone just enough information so they can confidently go out there thinking they now know how to do it, and hurt themselves or their family. I just hope people can understand the reasoning why some electricians are reluctant to give "how to" information, when most of us have seen what can go wrong. I'm just over the attitude that attacks the right advice, because it's not the answer people want to hear, and therefore the only reason is to protect an industry and our fellow sparkies.

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## Bros

My heart bleeds for all the DIY's and possible DIY's but if I cannot legally do my own wiring even thought I have an electrical ticket I can't see anyone else having much hope.

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## journeyman Mick

> Here is an example of some of the frustrations I get with Electrical stuff on this forum............
> Sure, he went on to clarify the original post, which would have gotten him the right answer in the first place, but, as soon as the answer posted was not what he wanted, BANG, attack the electrician..............

  Blonk,
I don't see that "If you don't want to disclose this arcane secret, that's fine by me. Perhaps someone more helpful will come along....." constitutes an attack on the sparky. I don't think that Nev is that fragile, but my apologies to him if he took it that way. I doubt that this was the case, as he gave me the answer I was after in the next post. Like I went on to explain, I have other sources for information and as a matter of fact one of my neighbours is an electrician employed as a safety inspector by the local supply company. He's actually slung me a few rolls of cable and a stack of three phase outlets and plugs. I just don't want to bother him too much as he will never take anything or any help in return. 
Mick

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## skot

I'll admit that I have changed a broken power point without calling in an electrician and I understand that it is against the regulations, why...because it is a weekend and I can get them at the hardware, it's fixed quickly and I take precautions about safety. That's my call and I have to take responsibility for that. 
The regs state that only a qualified electrician can legally do electrical work...OK...then the Government Dept that regulates the electrical industry should make it illegal to sell the equipment without producing an Electrician's licence. Would that solve the problem? 
I was in an Electrical wholesaler (NO Names NO Packdrill) yesterday to get a replacement circular fluro tube and noticed a bloke with his family (wife and 2 kids) purchasing an array of gear....switches, conduits etc.. obviously going to do his own work, and the person behind the counter joking about how this bloke has a busy weekend ahead of him. I know he wasn't a sparky as he mentioned about how he had to work out how it was going to work. 
This may not be the point of this thread BUT if the regs are to be seriously abided by...remove the ability to sell to Joe Public any gear that requires a sparky to install. Same goes for Plumbing gear...you can just hear the houls of protest from Bunnings, Mitre 10, Haymans, L&H about their drop in sales. 
I spoke to my brother (a motor mechanic with his own business) about this subject of qualified Sparkies & Plumbers being required and he reacons that why isn't there the same restrictions on Car repairs. His point and I must agree to some extent is any unqualified person...even an electrician or plumber can do work on the brakes of their car..possibly get it wrong and drive out on the road with 1.5 tonnes of steel hurtling at 80-100 kph with faulty brakes and apparently the authorities say that is ok to do those repairs. 
If you don't want DYI...stop the sales of it to unqualified people otherwise accept that people will purchase the gear and at least give them the info they require when asked.

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## spartan

The telling point on Bros electrical ticket is the department that it is issued by....the Department of Industrial Relations...... 
Closed shop....

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## nev25

> I cannot legally do my own wiring even thought I have an electrical ticket.

  Who told you that?

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## Bros

> Who told you that?

  In Quensland following a political decision to break a strike the only persons who can legally sign off the work has to have an electrical contractors licence. The stupid part is the mechanic has to have his name and number on the form as well as the contractor. Before this decision you could get permit do do the work for yourself and close relatives and have it inspected by a supply authority inspector but that all changed in 1985.
Electrical inspectors don't exist here.

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## nev25

> In Quensland following a political decision to break a strike the only persons who can legally sign off the work has to have an electrical contractors licence. The stupid part is the mechanic has to have his name and number on the form as well as the contractor. Before this decision you could get permit do do the work for yourself and close relatives and have it inspected by a supply authority inspector but that all changed in 1985.
> Electrical inspectors don't exist here.

  OK See where you are coming from  
I often wonder this 
Electrical safety act states something like a person with an electrical workers License (you) can perform electrical work as long as it not for profit IE you own house. 
The ACT also states that you must Issue a Certificate of Electrical Safety for all work including your own  house 
As you have indicated the Certificate has to be signed by an Electrical Contractor and the Licensed Electrician that performed the work (In Most cases is the same person) 
Sort of a catch 22 scenario 
I seem to remember reading somewhere where this occurs in Vic the Electrical worker is to ring the Regulating Authority (ESV) and they will except the form without an REC on the form.
Maybe ring OES for verification

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## chrisp

> In Quensland following a political decision to break a strike the only persons who can legally sign off the work has to have an electrical contractors licence. The stupid part is the mechanic has to have his name and number on the form as well as the contractor. Before this decision you could get permit do do the work for yourself and close relatives and have it inspected by a supply authority inspector but that all changed in 1985.
> Electrical inspectors don't exist here.

  For the benefit of those who are unaware, in Australia not only do you have to be a qualified and licenced electrician (to prove that you _can_ do the work), to receive payment for electrical work you also have to have to be registered as a contractor (another course).  And, as Bros is pointing out, it seems that even even a qualified electrician can't do their own electrical work as the certificate of compliance needs to be signed off by a contractor! 
Now who was it that posted something about the system being all about safety - and not a closed shop!

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## chrisp

> The Australian Government decided when it reduced the manning requirements for australian ships to come in line with overseas practice that a *6* week course was needed to bring marine engineers up to a standard to maintain , overhaul, replace as necessary, build , fit new installations , modify as necessary all the electrical , eltronic, equipment on a vessel, including generation and generating equipment , ferquency and voltage regulation , switch boards , breakers , fuses, etc etc including all the domestic whithin the accomodation.

  Ashore, 
Do you know if this is still the case?  Are the training requirements (i.e the 6 week course) part of an internationally accepted agreement or standards in the maritime industry? 
Chris

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## nev25

What You Not reading well   

> in Vic the Electrical worker is to ring the Regulating Authority (ESV) and they will except the form without an REC on the form.

   

> ! 
> Now who was it that posted something about the system being all about safety - and not a closed shop!

  Its actually about Business Practice 
And Public Liability Insurance  Once again protecting the general Public     *What do I need to be a Registered Electrical Contractor?*  _Technical Supervisor_
Someone who holds a current Electrician’s License (A Class), and who has completed the Licensed Electrician’s Assessment (LEA) or previously the Licensed Electrical Mechanics (LEM) assessment.  _Business Nominee_
Someone who has undertaken the Registered Electrical Contractor’s Course with their local TAFE college, and has successfully completed this course. OR
Someone who has relevant business administration and management experience, with relevant qualifications, who ESV deems as qualified to act in the role of Business Nominee.  _Civil Liability Insurance_
Contractor must hold current civil liability insurance (minimum cover $5M) against personal injury and/or damage to property in connection with the electrical contracting work of the applicant or their employees or agents. 
If you are registering a business name, the insurance should be registered as XYZ trading ABC Electrics, and in the case of a partnership both partners should be named. Accordingly, if you are registering a Company, the insurance should refer the company name.  
From Here http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectri...5/Default.aspx

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## nev25

> Ashore, 
> Do you know if this is still the case? Are the training requirements (i.e the 6 week course) part of an internationally accepted agreement or standards in the maritime industry? 
> Chris

  
Yep Should be as they are the generating authority

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## chrisp

> What You Not reading well     
> Its actually about Business Practice 
> And Public Liability Insurance  Once again protecting the general Public     *What do I need to be a Registered Electrical Contractor?*  _Technical Supervisor_
> Someone who holds a current Electricians License (A Class), and who has completed the Licensed Electricians Assessment (LEA) or previously the Licensed Electrical Mechanics (LEM) assessment.  _Business Nominee_
> Someone who has undertaken the Registered Electrical Contractors Course with their local TAFE college, and has successfully completed this course. OR
> Someone who has relevant business administration and management experience, with relevant qualifications, who ESV deems as qualified to act in the role of Business Nominee.  _Civil Liability Insurance_
> Contractor must hold current civil liability insurance (minimum cover $5M) against personal injury and/or damage to property in connection with the electrical contracting work of the applicant or their employees or agents. 
> If you are registering a business name, the insurance should be registered as XYZ trading ABC Electrics, and in the case of a partnership both partners should be named. Accordingly, if you are registering a Company, the insurance should refer the company name.  
> From Here http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectri...5/Default.aspx

  You seemed to have omitted this bit... _Sole Trader_
 A Sole Trader application is a person who will be working alone. He/she will be the technical supervisor, and therefore will hold a current Electricians License (A Class).  *He/she will have also undertaken the Registered Electrical Contractors Course through a local TAFE college* or will have an appropriate business nominee (accountant), who will ensure that the business in run in a satisfactory manner. 
etc...So Bros is trained and qualified but can't even do his own work!  It's nothing to do with protecting the general public. 
How many other industries require a "contractor's license"?

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## nev25

> So Bros is trained and qualified but can't even do his own work!

  
Oh but he can as long as he doesnt do it for profit

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## Ashore

> Ashore, 
> Do you know if this is still the case? Are the training requirements (i.e the 6 week course) part of an internationally accepted agreement or standards in the maritime industry? 
> Chris

  that was the course when they got rid of marine electricians to bring us up to marine electrical standard , now the teaching of the necessary electrical training is part of the overall training required and is a subject in itself.
First is Watchkeepers then after a period at sea you can sit for a second class certificate then after a suitable period at sea you sit for a first class certificate 
All these certificates are in either steam or motor 
All the certificates are in two parts , Part A is theory and coveres many subjects and tested by exams set by AMSA
part b is a written test once again set by AMSA and an oral exam both of which you have to pass at the same time and these can be on anything regarding the running of a ships machinary , including electronics , electrical service, running and maintaince of engines , boilers, safety equipment , oh&s , fire fighting , and you can be asked to draw any component on the ship , its nothing for the oral exam to go 3 to 4 hours and then get failed on one small point,
Guess thats why australian tickets are one of the only tickets accepted every wear in the world and why so many foriegn engineers come here to study and try to get australian tickets  :Rolleyes:

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## elkangorito

> Oh but he can as long as he doesnt do it for profit

  
I agree Nev. 
The underlying problem is that of liability. If the electrician, who owns his home carries out electrical work, who is to know that he did any such work if he didn't "sign off" said work? 
On my original 'A' Grade electrical license, issued by the Energy Authority of New South Wales, it says the following: 
"The holder of an electricians license shall not undertake or carry out electrical wiring work save as the employee of an electrical contractor; but this provision shall not apply where a licensed electrician undertakes or carries out electrical wiring work on his own premises. _See_ Section 22 (3) Electricity Development Act. Penalty, $500" 
My original electricians license was issued on the 14th of June, 1984. 
It appears that something(s) may have changed.  
The yanks have the problem solved. They allow DIY work but only by permit. This is different from state to state. In other words, "someone" gets to "sign off" the work. 
We Aussies must be dumb. We had this years ago with inspectors but we got rid of them with the advent of privatisation. In my opinion, we have taken several steps backward. 
Regulations won't stop idiots.

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## Honorary Bloke

I should have mentioned, when discussing DIY electrical work over here, that there is one major exception.  Once a sale contract is signed on a house, but before it is finalised and actual ownership passes, any repair work done to satisfy a Home Inspection MUST be proven to have been done by a licensed tradesperson. Or the contract can be voided. In this case, even a licensed electrician *cannot* perform the work if it is his own home that is sold. He must hire another to do it.  :Smilie:

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## Bros

> Oh but he can as long as he doesnt do it for profit

  Sorry Nev but I can't even do that as I must have a contractor to sign the paperwork and I haven't had a contractors licence for 20 yrs. I do get around it as I know a couple of contractors who sign my paperwork if needed but I have only done 3 jobs in the last 10 yrs one for my daughter one for my brother in law and one for a charity. 
Remember it is Queensland and as I said before the regulations are different in every state

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## nev25

> Now who was it that posted something about the system being all about safety - and not a closed shop!

  
I be interested in Hear your opinion on the red/white  card system 
People have been working on building sites for years 
Now can not unless they get  do a course to get a card to prove they know what safety is???

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## blonk

I think that I have have been looking at this "closed shop" business in the wrong way. I guess it is a closed shop in many industries, it is closed unless you have the required licence/card/experience/qualifications. From the outside looking in, it may seem unfair. Someone may be able to do the job, but doesn't have ticket a/b/c, so can't. From the inside, it would give me some confidence if a person meets the entry requirements, they should be able to fit in and do their job to a to the required standard.
I spent many years working construction. Can't do it now as I don't have a green card. Ok, so if I want to go back into it, I go and do the course. I'm sure I meet or exceed the knowledge required for a green card, but the system dictates, all must do the same course, therefore so would I.

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## chrisp

> I be interested in Hear your opinion on the red/white  card system 
> People have been working on building sites for years 
> Now can not unless they get  do a course to get a card to prove they know what safety is???

  Nev, 
I don't know the specifics of the building site "tickets".  How long does the course take, and can anyone do them?  Is it like doing a "safety induction" (required almost  everywhere these days), or is it a 4-year course?

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## N0mad

I suspect one of the reasons that they allow more DIY in the US is that 110V is less deadly than 220. Otherwise I would have expected their legal and regulatory systems to have similar issues to the Australian one... 
To tie in with earlier comments in this thread: 
In Sweden you used to qualify by doing your year 10 and 11 on an electricians "course", then serve as an apprentice for 2 years (I think it's still the same except it's now year 10 to 12 instead). I did the same course as part of my year 10-13 structural engineers certificate so I would have qualified if I had done the two year apprenticeship as well. As one sparky said to me: You now know how to do everything correctly but don't yet know all the shortcuts and cheats, so any installations you do will be excellent.  :Biggrin:  
I beleive that in countries like Australia where liability is such a huge legal (and monetary) issue you will always have regulations that are overly strict. I counties with a better public insurance cover and less legal possibilities to sue someone (like Sweden), regulations are usually more flexible.  
In Sweden any person is allowed to do repairs, new installations, etc to any electrical cabling and plugs as long as it doesn't involve fixed wiring (safety switches are mandatory). Plumbing is not required to be done by professionals as long as you follow the standards. The principle seems to be that if it isn't likely to kill you, it doesn't need to be regulated  :Biggrin:

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## spartan

In queensland no certificates are issued at the completion of electrical work. That is, there is no proof that the work was conducted by an appropriately licensed person. 
The only exception to this is when you are having work down impacting the supply of mains power - i.e, three phase, off peak tariffs and the like. In that case the form is filled in and sent to the electricity distributor....

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## skot

That explains why I got no paperwork when the Air Conditioner was installed in my workshop, even when the sparky installed the new circuit.

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## nev25

> In queensland no certificates are issued at the completion of electrical work. ....

  
Is that a regulation or just shoddy tradesmen 
Its mandatory here in Vic and carried big fines if not adhered to

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## Bros

Look what happens when you don't read the latest Act. I gave everyone a bum steer. The following is a extract from the 2002 Electricity Act. I know this wasn't the case when I built my house 12 yrs ago so the powers must have bowed to pressure to change.  However, a person does not conduct a business or undertaking
that includes the performance of electrical work only because
the person
(a) is a licensed electrical mechanic who
(i) performs electrical work for the person or a relative
of the person at premises owned or occupied by the
person or relative; or
(ii) makes minor emergency repairs to make electrical
equipment electrically safe;

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## Master Splinter

Safety, safety, safety.  I keep seeing those words as a reason for Australia's system, but never anything to back them up. 
So lets see...attached below are the fatality rates per million of population, from an international study. 
Does this support the contention that Austraila's electrical regime is safer?  I think not, as Australia has the highest fatality rate out of all the ten countries in the survey. 
Source: http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/uplo...-2000-2001.pdf

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## nev25

> Safety, safety, safety. I keep seeing those words as a reason for Australia's system, but never anything to back them up. 
> So lets see...attached below are the fatality rates per million of population, from an international study. 
> Does this support the contention that Austraila's electrical regime is safer? I think not, as Australia has the highest fatality rate out of all the ten countries in the survey. 
> Source: http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/uplo...-2000-2001.pdf

  
Yep and while this stats exist the regulators look at is from the point that Australia needs more tougher regulations
And the fines will get bigger 
So the DIY homeowner hasnt a hope

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## montiee

> Sure, he went on to clarify the original post, which would have gotten him the right answer in the first place, but, as soon as the answer posted was not what he wanted, BANG, attack the electrician.

  Which quite frankly is a retarded answer because it's the obvious answer and the fact someone has come into this forum asking how to DIY means that he has pretty much considered getting a sparky and ruled it out. Then of course if it was just left at that you could ignore it but then we get a tyraid of posts from the "get a sparky" recommender derailing the thread into another one of those debates rather than answering the question in a helpful manner. If you want to keep your trade a secret and not contribute then that is your choice.  _My hats off to you Watson for taking the initiative to stop the meaningless derails well known members of this forum often employ when a DIY wiring question comes up. I only hope it works out. It may require some vigilance to break old habits and direct them to this thread which they can go for dear life repeating useless (and obvious) information over and over again without answering what the poster has asked._

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## montiee

> I think not, as Australia has the highest fatality rate out of all the ten countries in the survey. 
> Source: http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/uplo...-2000-2001.pdf

  Of course because we all know that if we tell someone not to have sex they won't do it. Sex education is bad. Same with standards. Lets keep them sealed up and costly so a DIY'er can't get the info and I'm sure that they won't proceed. 
Thank god for NZ and being able to get standards from the openess they have to get info.

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## sundancewfs

Interesting thing about insurance and electrical work, it doesn't protect the licenced electrician from criminal prosecution if they kill someone with faulty workmanship.
My memory is a bit hazy on the details, but I seem to remember a case in  WA in Busselton...or Bunbury about15 years ago, where a qualified sparky wired in an electric hotwater system. and the first person to use the water was unfortunatly a young girl having a shower. She was electrocuted and died. From memory he was charged with manslaughter.

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## nev25

> . If you want to keep your trade a secret and not contribute then that is your choice. _._

    

> Interesting thing about insurance and electrical work, it doesn't protect the licenced electrician from criminal prosecution 
> .

  
Read between the lines

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## blonk

> Safety, safety, safety. I keep seeing those words as a reason for Australia's system, but never anything to back them up. 
> So lets see...attached below are the fatality rates per million of population, from an international study. 
> Does this support the contention that Austraila's electrical regime is safer? I think not, as Australia has the highest fatality rate out of all the ten countries in the survey. 
> Source: http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/uplo...-2000-2001.pdf

  I'd be interested as to what the statistics were when anyone could do electrical work. Why was the industry licensed in the first place?

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## blonk

> Which quite frankly is a retarded answer because it's the obvious answer and the fact someone has come into this forum asking how to DIY means that he has pretty much considered getting a sparky and ruled it out. Then of course if it was just left at that you could ignore it but then we get a tyraid of posts from the "get a sparky" recommender derailing the thread into another one of those debates rather than answering the question in a helpful manner. If you want to keep your trade a secret and not contribute then that is your choice.

  The reply in question, was simply asking for clarification on the original post, and yes it was obvious because in most cases the obvious answer is the best. People ask questions because they don't know how, and that's the problem. If you don't know the risks with electricity, you don't get wet, or dirty, you can die.
As for trade secrets, all standards, rules, catalogues of parts, are available to anyone, so if you know what standards you need, go buy them and you can work to the same standards an electrician. In my experience all questions asked have been answered, with the correct answer, it's just that some people don't like the correct answer, so argue about closed shops, over regulation, etc. etc.

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## sundancewfs

Yes I think the stats would be interesting too. 
Broken down into catagories.
how many electrocutions:
in the home
in the workplace
of electrical workers
of non- electrical workers
of graffiti artists
of children (is our education of the dangers of electricity working?)
due to illegal works
due to legal and sanctioned works (with fault)
due to appliance failure
due to operator error ( knife in the toaster)
fixed wiring vs appliances
etc etc etc...
some of these overlap
but it would be interesting to see the stats.

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## mdfdust

> Is that a regulation or just shoddy tradesmen 
> Its mandatory here in Vic and carried big fines if not adhered to

  
No the regs don;t require it...in fact there is no such thing..... 
which reminds of an interesting point....when people get a house inspection there is a disclaimer regarding electrical work, saying that they will not vouch for it etc and recommend that you get an electrician to inspect - which no electrician in their right mind would do - because he can't see what's hidden behind the walls.....

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## chrisp

> Of course.   On your own home. But you are supposed to get it inspected when finished. (For large jobs, this happens, for everyday repairs it does not happen.)  In addition, if you are adding circuits to the panel or such you are supposed to get a permit ahead of time for the work (and pay a fee). The fee pays for the inspection, among other things. Our electrical inspectors are government employees.  
> I have had several sparkies over the years quote two prices for a job, one if I insist they get a permit and a lower one if I simply want the job done properly but without all the paperwork.

  Bob, 
A few more questions if I may? 
I take it that permits, and inspections, are require whether the work is done by the owner or an electrician?  Does an electrician have to get their work inspected too? 
And, what is the affect on the house sale or price if some of the electrical work has been done DIY?  Do buyers get inspections on the house before purchasing?  Over here we don't have to get building inspections done, but it is highly advisable.  The inspections are often done by architects - which includes a basic visual inspection of the electrical and plumbing services.  Some houses here have been owner-built or owner-renovated and the only noticeable impact on the value of the house is when work has been done without a permit.  Building permits are quite cheap ($100s) and include the cost of the various inspections required at different stages (foundations, framing and final).  Houses where renovation work has been done without a permit are quite noticeable.  I suppose if someone can't be bothered, or can't afford, to get a permit, they probably can't be bothered, or afford, to do the job right either.

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## Honorary Bloke

> Bob, 
> A few more questions if I may? 
> I take it that permits, and inspections, are require whether the work is done by the owner or an electrician?  Does an electrician have to get their work inspected too?  Yes. Electricians must get their work inspected. There is no such thing as electrician "sign off." And yes, permits are generally required (but not for repairs, only new work). 
> And, what is the affect on the house sale or price if some of the electrical work has been done DIY?  Do buyers get inspections on the house before purchasing?  Over here we don't have to get building inspections done, but it is highly advisable.    There is no practical effect on the house price. Like OZ, most homes are inspected after the contract is signed but before title passes. Not required, but advised and buyers generally sign a waiver if they choose not to have it inspected. Home Inspectors are a specially-licensed trade and carry considerable liability insurance, so the inspections are typically quite thorough. 
> In most contracts, if the buyer does not like the outcome of the inspection they can void the contract. More usual, however, is an attempt to have any problems corrected before title passes.    The inspections are often done by architects - which includes a basic visual inspection of the electrical and plumbing services.   See above. Inspections (for contract purposes) must be carried out by licensed Inspectors. 
> Some houses here have been owner-built or owner-renovated and the only noticeable impact on the value of the house is when work has been done without a permit.   Same here. But that is not always discovered. It is only usually discovered if the tax description of the house does not match the actual dwelling. (For example, a 4 bedroom house shown on tax rolls as 2 bedrooms.) No particular search is done for permits as part of the transaction.    Building permits are quite cheap ($100s) and include the cost of the various inspections required at different stages (foundations, framing and final).    For new construction, permits can be quite dear (depending on local laws) but include the inspections as you have outlined. 
> Houses where renovation work has been done without a permit are quite noticeable.  I suppose if someone can't be bothered, or can't afford, to get a permit, they probably can't be bothered, or afford, to do the job right either.

  Over here it is not always so obvious, as sometimes the work is done to Code but without a permit. As you can imagine, however, the insurance companies will help keep you honest as they won't pay out to replace non-conforming structures.  
[Disclaimer, if that's the word I want: I am an experienced DIYer and also a fully-licensed real estate broker in the State of South Carolina. Other states may or may not have similar regulations.] :Smilie:

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## Master Splinter

> I'd be interested as to what the statistics were when anyone could do electrical work. Why was the industry licensed in the first place?

  Industry licensing (unionisation) in Australia came in at about the same time as electricity generation started becoming common (Sydney got power in 1904, NT didn't get any electricity till 1923.)  
By the 30's, a third of Australia was wired up.  
As late as the 60's, you could still do electrical work outside of town if you were a farmer. 
Modern(ish) statistics on the issue didn't really come in until the late 70's; since the 1990's they should have been coded by ICD-10 (International Classification of Diseases) causes of death and should have a reasonable degree of comparability internationally.

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## Terrian

> Nev, 
> I don't know the specifics of the building site "tickets".  How long does the course take, and can anyone do them?  Is it like doing a "safety induction" (required almost  everywhere these days), or is it a 4-year course?

  last I read, red card, one day course, any one can do them.

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## nev25

> last I read, red card, one day course, any one can do them.

  Yep Its a one day course and its now a white card (nationally recognized)
Did mine yesterday

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## nev25

> ..... 
> which reminds of an interesting point....when people get a house inspection there is a disclaimer regarding electrical work, saying that they will not vouch for it etc and recommend that you get an electrician to inspect - which no electrician in their right mind would do - because he can't see what's hidden behind the walls.....

  Here in Vic we have this http://eservices.esv.vic.gov.au/esve...index-cust.asp 
The concept is a good idea but didn't really take off
I did the course and was keen until I got a quote for the insurance cover I had to have     

> Over here we don't have to get building inspections done, but it is highly advisable. The inspections are often done by architects - which includes a basic visual inspection of the electrical and plumbing services. ..

  
My Son just bought a house and had it inspected by a inspection company 
Cost him $400 and the 4 page document had more disclaimer's that info. 
The electrical section simply said cable was old suggest get an electrician to inspect it.
The pest section said something like as we are not pest control experts we suggest call a pest expert to inspect 
And they missed some real simple defects like holes in wall behind doors from door knobs etc 
Bit of a waist of money really   
But then again Son in law broke down in his car a few weeks ago and called the RACV
The Roadside assistance person turned up and suggested he take it to a mechanic?

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## roba

Anybody who thinks the existing rules are about safety are kidding themselves.  We've seen a graph showing that our electrocution causing death rate is higher than New Zealand.  My understanding is that NZ allows DIY.
Secondly, the statistic is very small - seems to be about 2.5 deaths per million for Australia.  I wonder how many of these are actually due to DIY.  Most are probably due to stupid teenagers climbing electricity towers or hair dryers being dropped in the bath. 
What is ridiculous is that I can't even change a powerpoint myself.  Turn off power.  Unscrew three screws.  Move wires across.  Screw up.  Turn on power.  How incredibly simple!
As a result, the rules are totally ignored.  Everybody just does it themselves (well, everyone I know).  You'd have to be stupid to pay somebody $100 for 6 screws. 
Further, there is no guarantee a sparky will get it right.  Five years ago I got halogen lights put in the kitchen.  They all worked great, until last year when I got a new meter box and safety switches.  As soon as I turned on the kitchen lights, the circuit would trip.  Up in the roof space I went, and eventually narrowed down the problem to the neutral and ground being wired the wrong way around on one of the lights.  So I fixed the electricians mistake.
I didn't need any help with this, but if I had asked in this forum, "Call a sparky" would have been the WRONG answer and useless to me.

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## BRADFORD

Regulations are regulations
If you disagree with any of them make an approach to the regulators. It is pointless attacking the people who abide by the regulations and not the people who introduce and enforce them.
It does not matter how many times you go round and round with the same gripe on this forum, it will make no difference to the regulations. If you feel so stongly about it organise a petition or some such to the powers that be and try and have them changed.

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## Honorary Bloke

> It does not matter how many times you go round and round with the same gripe on this forum, it will make no difference to the regulations. .

  Likely. But where is the fun in that?  :Wink:

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## pharmaboy2

> Regulations are regulations
> If you disagree with any of them make an approach to the regulators. It is pointless attacking the people who abide by the regulations and not the people who introduce and enforce them.

  Quite so.  However everytime this thread gets a run, it does so because of a few posters who always reply the same unhelpful reply to any question - usually 3 or 4 of them.  That is an insult to the OP who has come here for help - its quite possible that that there is somebody in australia who isnt aware of the restriction as they apply generally for electrical work - but I've never met one. 
So the "attacks"  - are not about abiding by the regulations or shooting the messenger, its about not providing help in a forum for genuine requests.  If i cant help someone with a structural problem, i dont reply - we have however a few electricians and non electricians who either cant or wont help but still reply to tell the poor unfortunate visitor to the site, that the sky is blue and rain falls from the sky. 
The worst problem of these knee jerk replies, is that when the question genuinely requires that answer because of complexity, danger etc, someones better answer of caution is lost in a chorus of chants - 'stop it, or you'll go blind"

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## watson

One thing I've learned from this thread so far: 
There is no standard set of rules between the States and Territories. 
Any comments on a need for standardisation?

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## blonk

> Quite so.  However everytime this thread gets a run, it does so because of a few posters who always reply the same unhelpful reply to any question - usually 3 or 4 of them.  That is an insult to the OP who has come here for help - its quite possible that that there is somebody in australia who isnt aware of the restriction as they apply generally for electrical work - but I've never met one. 
> So the "attacks"  - are not about abiding by the regulations or shooting the messenger, its about not providing help in a forum for genuine requests.  If i cant help someone with a structural problem, i dont reply - we have however a few electricians and non electricians who either cant or wont help but still reply to tell the poor unfortunate visitor to the site, that the sky is blue and rain falls from the sky. 
> The worst problem of these knee jerk replies, is that when the question genuinely requires that answer because of complexity, danger etc, someones better answer of caution is lost in a chorus of chants - 'stop it, or you'll go blind"

  Sorry, but an you provide some examples? In my experience, every electrical question has been answered correctly.

----------


## blonk

> One thing I've learned from this thread so far: 
> There is no standard set of rules between the States and Territories. 
> Any comments on a need for standardisation?

  True, standardisation would be good. AS3000 is the national standard, but there are different wiring rules for each state, as far as I know. Possibly they still need to be different due to variations in climate, and building requirements. Colder in the south, hotter and more humid in the north etc.

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## pharmaboy2

> Sorry, but an you provide some examples? In my experience, every electrical question has been answered correctly.

  quite possibly -  eventually.  did a quick search and noted that some posters who used to be unhelpful to a point seemed to have softened their approach -  :2thumbsup:  to them 
So it would seem things have improved somewhat from the same old replies getting a run through this time last year. Now I did do a search and found a few examples of what i'm talking about in the past - however posting them up does nothing to help the situation and they dont deserve to have me bringing back up those unhelpful replies now. 
That history though, and the arguments about safety versus protectionism, are why these threads still roll on for pages and pages

----------


## blonk

> quite possibly -  eventually.  did a quick search and noted that some posters who used to be unhelpful to a point seemed to have softened their approach -  to them 
> So it would seem things have improved somewhat from the same old replies getting a run through this time last year. Now I did do a search and found a few examples of what i'm talking about in the past - however posting them up does nothing to help the situation and they dont deserve to have me bringing back up those unhelpful replies now. 
> That history though, and the arguments about safety versus protectionism, are why these threads still roll on for pages and pages

  I haven't been around these forums for all that long compared to many, so as you have commented, things seem to have improved. As I said, my experience has been positive in the help people have given. It does seem to be that there is a long standing history with some, and hopefully answers will be judged on their merits as opposed to past experience. I certainly try to give constructive help where I can.

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## TwinTrade

> True, standardisation would be good. AS3000 is the national standard, but there are different wiring rules for each state, as far as I know. Possibly they still need to be different due to variations in climate, and building requirements. Colder in the south, hotter and more humid in the north etc.

  The only difference i'm aware of between states in the service provider rules for connecting street to house apart from that we should all be adhering to AS3000 
Interested in your response , are there any type of state wiring rules? 
not in NSW that i know of

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## elkangorito

Some years ago now, there were installation rules for each & every energy authority in NSW. Now, it appears to be all under a NSW set of rules. It certainly made things easier, especially from a 'switchboard design' point of view. 
Regardless of this, the local 'regulatory body' must use, as a minimum requirement, AS3000. The Wiring Rules must be adhered to in every state (unless amended within the Wiring Rules).

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## blonk

> The only difference i'm aware of between states in the service provider rules for connecting street to house apart from that we should all be adhering to AS3000 
> Interested in your response , are there any type of state wiring rules? 
> not in NSW that i know of

  NSW and Victoria (the only 2 states I have worked in) both have Service and Installation Rules, as you said they are mainly about Supply and switchboard. As an apprentice in VIC, I was always told the SIR's took priority over AS3000, for anything contained in the SIR's. Here is the link to the NSW SIR's.  http://www.dwe.nsw.gov.au/energy/ele..._service.shtml 
There is also local legislation, but it's more about the responsibilities of the tester, who can and can't do work etc.

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## muddles1972

It doesnt matter what rules & regulations are out there, people somehow get away with it as long as they have the gift of the gab and can tell a few lies.
I personally know an employee of a major mining company who fraudlently applied for an A Class electricians license from the government department in that state without holding the correct qualifications.  He then worked and is still working on the mine site despite both the mines owners, the contracted company & the Electrical Govt Department being advised and being provided with evidence.
Companies out there will do what ever it takes to protect themselves.  This company has had 5 deaths in the past 12 months.  Lets just hope they werent electrical related and my condolences to the families if they were caused by this persons incompetance.

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## pandom

> In queensland no certificates are issued at the completion of electrical work. That is, there is no proof that the work was conducted by an appropriately licensed person. 
> The only exception to this is when you are having work down impacting the supply of mains power - i.e, three phase, off peak tariffs and the like. In that case the form is filled in and sent to the electricity distributor....

  Actualy in queensland you have to provide a certificate of test to the customer at completion usually on the invoice. its legislation

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## pandom

Its not only electrical where you have to be licensed but plumbing, air con, data, phone , pay tv

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## nev25

> Actualy in queensland you have to provide a certificate of test to the customer at completion usually on the invoice. its legislation

  
Yeah I thought it was Australia wide

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## skot

I mentioned in an earlier post that I didn't get any paperwork when the electrician put in the circuit for the Air Con in my shed. That must mean that the Air Con company got the compliance paperwork. 
The sparky was contracting to the Air Con company....shouldn't the paperwork be given to the owner of the property NOT the person they invoice.

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## elkangorito

At the end of the day, anybody is able to obtain the "wiring rules". If they have the ability to correctly interpret them, the person _may_ be ok. 
Testing an installation not only requires "following the rules" but it also requires the knowledge of how to interpret the test results & the appropriate equipment (not cheap). 
If you are the type of DIYer that likes to "dot the i's & cross the t's" (for obvious safety reasons), it would be well worth the time & trouble to learn the technical aspects of the following; 
a] the importance of "polarity" in A.C. circuits.
b] Earth Fault Loop Impedance.
c] insulation resistance.
d] the M.E.N. system & how it works. 
The first 3 are critical if you wish to play around with electricity in your home. In order to properly understand them, one must be "electrically adept". The last one is also very important but without the backup of the first 3, it may as well not be there. 
State "Service & Installation" rules are quite technical & deal specifically with things like "Fault Current" in particular installation areas. Buying (or obtaining) these rules will be of little use unless you have good connections with the local energy people &/or you are technically adept to a great level, as quite often these rules will relate to other standards (particularly British Standards, which are still used in the Australian electrical world) & require technical knowledge of these standards. In some cases, these installation rules "assume" that the reader is technically adept & therefore gives no immediate reference to a Standard. As an example, fuses - what type of fuses should be used in what type of installation? BS88 or BS1361? One of these types has been around for years & are commonly known to people "in the industry". The other is a later addition to the Australian electrical scene. Both have very different characteristics & therefore, different uses/limitations. 
Of course, your local "sparky" should be clued in to what type of fuse to use in what type of installation.

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## Chumley

> (as an aside - has anyone figured out how people manage to mistreat powerpoints so badly as to break the fairly sturdy plastic the things are made of...or are there some domestic practices that I really don't want to know about???)

  Just to continue the aside, we had a power point in our kitchen replaced as it was cracked.  The sparky at the time (an ex-local elec inspector, so I guess he was pretty clued up) did say there were a lot of wires connected to the outlet.  It was a gpo and also a light switch, plus had a connection going to the dishwasher gpo plus a connection to the light above the range.  Six months later we called him back as the new outlet cracked.  He did some alterations, separating the whole thing into 2 outlets, one for the lights and the other for the power.  Nice guy - didn't charge as much the second time as he did the first. 
Re the cracking - we don't do anything you wouldn't want to know about, at least not in the kitchen.  Sparky seemed to think it had something to do with the number of connections, although whether he meant the weight of wires, or heat or what I don't know.  Always keep away from electrical stuff myself - don't know enough and it bites too hard if you get it wrong. 
BTW, these posts are very entertaining - I know there is a serious side to the debate, but its a bit like being a spectator in a boxing match. 
Cheers,
Adam

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## Dan574

> BTW, these posts are very entertaining - I know there is a serious side to the debate, but its a bit like being a spectator in a boxing match. 
> Cheers,
> Adam

  
My thoughts exactly however this one has been tame.

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## pandom

Are the pro DIY electrical people ignoring my post, usually I get some bites

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## pandom

Terrian , yeh an electrician would have done this work , but it would have had to be approved by the electrical supply authority for the meter to be installed, therefore they should have knocked it back. By installing the meter and energising the board they now become responsible. Thats why in Qld Ergon Energy leave the main switch off and put a sticker over it with a note saying the installation should be checked by an electricanbefore energising thus leaving the onus back on the electrcian.

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## watson

> Are the pro DIY electrical people ignoring my post, usually I get some bites

  Nope...we're just all out looking for Nev  :Biggrin:  
I'm Joking!!!!
Really truly I am.

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## nicm

> I was just wondering whether the people that keep rambling on about pushing the laws to be changed so that the home owner can do his own electrical work are also going to push for the restriction of plumbing, phone, data , air condtioning/ refrigeration, pay tv , security systems, solar systems to be dropped

  Yes absolutely ,  
In fact in a previous thread even Nev wasn't able to explain why Data cabling was restricted. That has to be the most stupid restriction out there.
Maybe you can give it a shot ! 
nic

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## Terrian

> Terrian , yeh an electrician would have done this work , but it would have had to be approved by the electrical supply authority for the meter to be installed, therefore they should have knocked it back. By installing the meter and energising the board they now become responsible. Thats why in Qld Ergon Energy leave the main switch off and put a sticker over it with a note saying the installation should be checked by an electricanbefore energising thus leaving the onus back on the electrcian.

  So you have the pro, and the people making sure the pro does the job right both stuffing up, gotcha.

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## Terrian

> I was just wondering whether the people that keep rambling on about pushing the laws to be changed so that the home owner can do his own electrical work are also going to push for the restriction of plumbing, phone, data , air condtioning/ refrigeration, pay tv , security systems, solar systems to be dropped as well.

  Well, I have changed the downpipes and replaced tap washers, moved phone cable, run data cable, uninstalled an air con and installed security camera system, but I did get a plumber / gas fitter to fix the hot water system, you have to draw the line somewhere  :2thumbsup:    

> electrical work may be under review in that further licensing may be required to install smoke alarms

  what, you'll need to do a 2 year course on how to use a philips head screw driver ?   

> As I haven't been on here for a while , I just had to answer a question put to me that I didn't get to answer , yes I think that the electrical products sold at Bunnings are crap, including HPM products, couldn't tell you the number of times Ive replaced a HPM switch or point compared to Clipsal

  I did like the Clipsall recall a few years back on their quad GPO, apparently they  managed to get the active and earth connections around the wrong way  :Shock:  
Doesn't Bunnings sell Clipsall products any more ?

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## dambat

> <snip>   
> I did like the Clipsall recall a few years back on their quad GPO, apparently they  managed to get the active and earth connections around the wrong way  
> Doesn't Bunnings sell Clipsall products any more ?

  I don't believe that's the case - they just switched the red and green markers, not the actual position of the connections.  That's a problem of course, but not quite so big. 
I've seen plenty of failures from Clipsal - certainly enough that I would not recommend them over any other domestic brand. 
Finally, cracking of powerpoints in kitchens is often due to a combination of heat, sunlight, and often even oil.  PVC is tough to start with, but these things weaken it quite quickly.

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## blak

> Its not only electrical where you have to be licensed but plumbing, air con, data, phone , pay tv

  Data?
What is your source for this claim?

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## GraemeCook

> Nope...we're just all out looking for Nev

  
The Forums not the same without Nev.  Please look harder!    :brava:  Nev!  Nev!

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## Kanga

> What is ridiculous is that I can't even change a powerpoint myself. Turn off power. Unscrew three screws. Move wires across. Screw up. Turn on power. How incredibly simple!
> As a result, the rules are totally ignored. Everybody just does it themselves (well, everyone I know). You'd have to be stupid to pay somebody $100 for 6 screws.

  In the case of changing a powerpoint, there is a very usefull gadget available from Bunnings to test powerpoints.
It looks like a kids nightlight, but has three different coloured LED lights on it, the combination of lights tells you if the powerpoint is wired correctly or not.
Active and netural wires can be crossed over, and the power point will still work, but in a very unsafe manner. (Appliance will have power running though it with the switch turned off) 
The rule I always use is, if its showing a fault, then call a licenced electrician 
I dont want to damage any of my battery chargers by plugging into a customers faulty p/point

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## Pijiu

> In fact in a previous thread even Nev wasn't able to explain why Data cabling was restricted. That has to be the most stupid restriction out there.
> Maybe you can give it a shot!

  I will. 
I agree in some cases it can be stupid, but: 
1: A conductor (say for instance a cable ran closely in parallel with AC electrical wiring) can have a large voltage and current electromagnetically imposed on it. This is very unsafe and can potentially cause electrocution from that cable. Low voltage and signal cables should be run a specified distance from any electrical cables.  
2: A lot of data cabling connects to the phone line (DSL etc). The phone line can have ~75VDC on it. This can cause a shock. (albeit mild compared to 240VAC, but can still easily damage equipment or worse). 
3. From point 1, telecommunications infrastructure can be badly damaged, (even back to the exchange) quite possibly resulting in people unable to contact emergency services if needed. 
You would also be surprised at what some idiots try to connect to the phone system. 
Some of the rules are a bit excessive as in all regulations, but I guess they have to cater to the lowest denominator. 
Also please remember that not all electricians are certified data cablers (many are not, but claim to be), still have to do the extra training and be certified like anyone else.

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## Terrian

> In the case of changing a powerpoint, there is a very usefull gadget available from Bunnings to test powerpoints.
> It looks like a kids nightlight, but has three different coloured LED lights on it,

  like this:

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## rrobor

I would argue this two ways I am an electronics technican and have papers from two countries to prove it. Yet that only allows me to change sockets ets as a class B electrician My aprenticeship was 5 years I had to know ohms law Kirchofs laws and a host of others, and do the math. So do I get a sparky in to move a power socket, you bet I dont. Would I muck around in the fuse box? no.
  But I worked as a domestic electronics tech and saw some things that would make your hair rise
 I had a plumber who cracked a panel in half solder across the crack with a quarter inch deep run of solder which connected to whatever was there. Another old lady in UK made an extention lead out of 5A cable and ran the TV and a small heater off that, complained the TV was dark when the heater was on. So who can the law cater for, many of us can, but if governents say OK and the idiot brigade start, who gets blamed.

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## GraemeCook

> like this:

  Those gadgets are great.  I got an even simpler one from Dick Smiths 20+ years ago, featuring just three green lights .   Just plug it in and if three lights come on then all's well; if one or two lights come on then call a sparkie. 
If no lights come you have not paid the electricity bill. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## Terrian

> Those gadgets are great.  I got an even simpler one from Dick Smiths 20+ years ago, featuring just three green lights .   Just plug it in and if three lights come on then all's well; if one or two lights come on then call a sparkie.

  pretty much so, they provide a very quick idea if a power point is wired good or bad.   

> If no lights come you have not paid the electricity bill.

   :Rofl:

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## chromis

In regards to DIY electrical or anything else. I understand why the laws are in place but the extent that the laws are taken in some ways I think are extreme. Some of the laws I think have taken our right away to be self sufficient and that really bothers me. I personally wouldnt do a job I wasnt completely confident in doing and I think a DIY-er who does and passes that dodgy work off to someone else should be made accountable.  
My father and his brother built the family home, a very modest home but still standing after 50 years. He was the type of man that if you put out in the bush with just a knife and he could survive. Lived through a war. A very resourceful bloke. Your gonna tell someone like that he cant change a washer or a wall switch. 
Forget the laws, surely it comes down to personal responsibility and the result of your actions. Otherwise we just work ourselves up our own a*rses with some of these laws we all know are completely ridiculous.  
If theres a chance you will injure yourself or put anyone else in harms way..dont do it. Pretty simple no?

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## elkangorito

Fully agreed Chromis. 
Since we know what happens in regard to over regulation so maybe it's interesting to see what happens in regard to under regulation. 
For example, I live in Thailand. Just about everything here is DIY...this applies to domestic & many typical commercial installations. 
What do I mean by "Just about everything here is DIY"? Thai Industrial Standards (http://www.tisi.go.th/) do not cover electrical installations although they cover a multitude of other things. Nor do the standards cover plumbing etc etc.
As a result, "tradesmen" don't know anything. As a matter of fact, a Thai "tradesman" would me worse than the average Australian DIYer. Consequently, I deem all electrical work here is really DIY. 
As a consequence, it's a reasonably common occurance to read about electrical deaths in the papers here. 
I could speak volumes about the attrocious electrical work carried by by Thai "tradesmen".

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## chromis

Firstly someone actually agreed with me (I think) which is probally a "first" for this year  :Biggrin:  
Chainsaws are pretty dangerous bits of equipment. If some knob puts a chain on back to front the first cut would be disastrous. Could injure themselves or someone else but we allow anyone to buy one without any experience or knowledge. Maybe we should have chainsaw licences and charge 100 annually.  
I think a bit of common sense is in order and self assessment in regards to skill is needed  
regulation in moderation?

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## elkangorito

Fortunately, most people who don't know about something, usually seek information via;
a] somebody who does know something or,
b] learning by other means (training etc). 
It's only a few boofheads, who's pride is too big, don't WANT to learn or ask questions. These are the people who usually get hurt...or worse still, they hurt other people. These people will never be controllable. They will always be the damaging statistic. 
I reckon that if people want to learn something, they should be able to do so without spending years doing courses. What I'm taking about only pertains to DIY. 
If the "control freaks" (government etc) had any brains, they would allow DIY but under certain provosions. The provisions I talk about are those similar to what currently exist in NZ & Septic Land.
Of course, this will mean the re-introduction of "inspectors", which Australia happily almost annialated. 
The whole system would benefit from a couple of retrogressive steps i.e. more inspectors & temporary licenses.
People who want to DIY would be more controllable, the results of their work would be inspected & the knowledge gained by the DIYer would help "keep the bastards honest" (tradesmen).

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## elkangorito

I don't if anybody has seen this but....    

> This is the html version of the file http://www.masterelectricians.com.au..._incidents.pdf. 
> MEDIA RELEASE
> Sunday, November 9, 2008
> Alarming rise in dangerous electrical incidents. 
> Queensland is in the midst of an alarming increase in electrical accidents, fatalities and shonky workmanship, prompting calls for consumers to ensure they use only properly qualified electricians. Statistics from the most recent financial year showed a serious electrical incident takes place in Queensland every working day on average. The state has also experienced an increase in general electrical fatalities and electrical worker fatalities in recent years. Dangerous electrical events have also risen dramatically  up by more than 10 per cent in just two years. 
> A serious electrical incident is when a person is killed by electricity or receives a shock or injury from electricity. A dangerous electrical event covers a variety of circumstances, from issues with high voltage electrical equipment to electrical work being performed by someone without an electrical work licence. 
> The alarming trends have prompted the Electrical and Communications Association to create Master Electricians Australia, a new program that ensures the highest standards of safety and quality in electrical contracting. Master Electricians CEO Malcolm Richards urged Queensland households and businesses to ensure they used only licensed contractors for electrical work. In 2008 we simply should not be seeing increasing numbers of electrical accidents and fatalities, Mr Richards said.
> Sadly we are, and in many cases it reflects a lack of experience or attention to detail on the part of some tradespeople.
> Mr Richards acknowledged it could be difficult for consumers to be certain they were dealing with a licensed electrician. 
> ...

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## Wildman

> Further, there is no guarantee a sparky will get it right.

  I had a sparky wire up a fusebox for me in my garage. Basically I did most of the work running the cables, he did the boxes. I opened it up after he left and rather than putting the RCD on the normal power circuit and lighting and leaving single 15A powerpoint on its own circuit with separate RCD for my welder (I dont want it to trip the whole garage), the (single)RCD was on the lighting only and the 15A GPO was on a normal power circuit with 10 other double GPO's (with 16A breaker which breaches the wiring standards) 
I re-wired the box myself, added a separate circuit (with its own RCD) to run the single 15A GPO and put the general power circuit on the main RCD and it has since been inspected with no issues. 
I have no issue with people who are competent doing their own domestic wiring. I grew up off the grid with our own power supply. We had two different voltage circuits in the house, 32V DC for lighting and 240V AC for powerpoints running from batteries through an inverter. The batteries were charged by wind, solar and diesel. Having been involved with it for years and having a very good understanding of the concepts and regulations I have no hesitation in doing it myself, it is not rocket science. There should be a DIY inspection program for those who can show competency ( I would happily pay to sit a practical domestic DIY wiring test to allow me to do my own wiring legally) but common sense should also prevail. If you have to ask, dont try it yourself. 
Cheers
Ben

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## BRADFORD

I often say that the person who tells you he/she has never made a mistake is telling you a lie.
(likewise the person who tells you they have never told a lie *is certainly* telling a lie)
What I'm trying to say is that everybody makes mistakes, that includes tradespeople, doctors, scientists and any other profession you can think of.
Tradesmen you might get to do work for you can and often do make mistakes (some more than others, I guess they're the ones to avoid) However that doesn't make them all incompetent fools.
Certainly with electrical trades (and many other trades) threre is a degree of knowledge and expertise that a DIY person could never hope to emmulate.
The reality is that we all have our areas of expertise and while we can say this Doctor didn't diagnose my illness, or that Lawyer lost my court case, or that Judge made the wrong decision, or that Electrician put the power point on upside down, these people have done a lot of study and put in a lot of hard work to get where they are, and just because a Doctor misdiagnosed an illness and we got it right, doesn't mean we can hang out our shingle and become a Doctor from now on.
There are no doubt many DIY people who are capable of performing basic electricial work, but there are *many more* who have no ability or knowledge of the subject whatsoever.
Regulators who set down the rules have to work to the lowest common denominator for the safety of the lives and property of the rest of us. 
Regards Bradford

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## anthony256

I wonder why DIY wiring is illegal in Australia. 
If that's the case, why did HPM categorise switches and powerpoints as "DIY Products" on their website? Weird.

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