# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  Should DIY plumbing work be allowed in Australia?

## wonderplumb

Ive stolen your topic as a template elkangorito to ask the same of DIY plumbing.
Should DIY plumbing be allowed in Australia? By plumbing I mean; Plumbing, Sanitary Plumbing, Sanitary Drainage, Stormwater drainage, Natural & LP gas.
Have your say as it will be interesting to see other peoples opinions on this, as it was for the electrical side of it.

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## anawanahuanana

I think that, pretty much, most plumbing tasks could be competently carried out by the DIYer given a bit of imformation (and obviously assuming the DIY culprit chooses to actually read the info and abide by it...). Whilst I would not attempt to dig up my garden to try and fix a broken sewer pipe or the like, I don't believe that many people would go to the expense of digging down to it and then try to save a few extra bucks by doing the repair themselves. In my mind that is definately a job for a pro.
On the other hand, to change over an old set of wall stops for new ones, replace the kitchen tap, or cut a hole in my tin roof to put a vent pipe out through really is something the home owner should be allowed to do if comfortable. I think people view DIY plumbing as a much lesser evil than DIY electrical work, as, in most cases, the thing being carried, ie the water, can be seen. A leak is usually obvious if you take the time to look, and if one does occur, at best a quick trip out to the meter will have it shut off until you can rectify the leak, and at worst you may end up with a load of termites eating your house. 
Not so sure about gas though. I still think it can be done perfectly well by the DIYer, but obviously the risks from a bad job are worse.

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## Vernonv

Plumbing is probably seen as a less taboo issue, but the potential for causing harm is probably just as great. There is the obvious dangers of dealing with NG/LPG, but equally there is the possibility of contaminating the local water supply - so in theory your actions could effect more than your own household, it could also effect your neighbors. 
That said, I think generally water is a bit easier to understand for most people (compared to electricity).  
From my own point of view, I do all our plumbing, that includes storm water (actually rain water collection), supply and waste. We are not connected to mains water or sewerage, so any mistakes will soley effect our house.  
I tend the believe that plumbing (like electrical) should be free to do (and information freely available), but must to be inspected (for the DIY'er).

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## Gooner

This one is difficult to answer using the options you have listed. I believe there are some plumbing tasks I should be able to do myself and others that should be done by a pro. E.g. any gas line work should be left to a pro.

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## juan

Hi Wonderplumb 
I think the question of allowing DIY plumbing is too broad for me to answer anything but NO.  While I would like to see some freeing up to permit more plumbing tasks to be performed on a DIY basis I realise that it would be impractical to monitor this and standards would fall.
It seems that at present I cannot legally touch anything hot water even changing a tap or tap washers?  And while I would feel confident undertaking tasks like replacing a toilet pan and cistern my understanding is that this is not permitted. Whilst most electrical and plumbing tasks are quite simple to perform it is the knowledge and understanding of the necessary complicated regulations that cover the work that really make it impractical to allow  DIYers to perform the work safely and in a manner that will not cause major problems to systems or installations in the future. 
We would all hate standards to fall back to where they were 50 years ago when many DIYers was doing their own plumbing and wiring with some pretty disasterous consequences. 
For me some more specific questions to define which DIY plumbing tasks should be permitted would have been better. Questions like:
Should DIY toilet system replacement be allowed?
Should DIY HWS replacement be allowed?
Should DIY Hot and Cold water piping work be allowed?
Should DIY sewer pipe work and connection be allowed? etc etc 
Based on the broad reference in the questions to "DIY plumbing" and the need to maintain standards I will have to vote NO even though I think that there needs to be a little more freedom for DIY work to be performed..

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## Bros

> Ive stolen your topic as a template elkangorito to ask the same of DIY plumbing.
> Should DIY plumbing be allowed in Australia? By plumbing I mean; Plumbing, Sanitary Plumbing, Sanitary Drainage, Stormwater drainage, Natural & LP gas.
> Have your say as it will be interesting to see other peoples opinions on this, as it was for the electrical side of it.

  I think this is too broad a statement. The main thrust of the electrical DIY was install the wiring and fit off which I don't support but I am sympathetic to fitting replacement if you know what you are doing.
I do support minor plumbing work like cistern replacement, tap replacement, tap washer replacement but as for new installations it falls into the same category as electrical DIY.
I do notice now with the increase in chinese taps with parallel not taper threads it is somewhat harder to fit a tap and not have it leak, after three atttempts I ended up resorting to a combination of heavy duty thread tape and old fashioned hemp.

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## SilentButDeadly

I voted no to both.........despite the fact that I've done a bit myself.  Mainly because I don't want to have to be the bunny after some el dodge wannabe has created something alarming.... 
The other reason is self explanatory if one checks out the plumbers nightmares that are portrayed on the Reece website!!!

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## Ronaldo451

OK for all stormwater but only to replace existing with plastic/pvc on sewer lines other than anything to do with a gully, and installing/fixing 'removable' or accessible items such as taps, toilets etc.  
That would enable a DIY replacement of old earthenware where there are no additional items to be put on the line (where a knowledge of requirements and avoiding creating new choke points is needed) but precludes copper work and other where later problems may be hidden or not noticeable until lots of damage has been done.

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## bricks

Quick answer no.
Judging by the amount of people who do their own diy on this forum, 
If you do it right, the systems we have in australia don't notice, If you don't do it right- your in for a serious flogging.

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## peter_sm

I believe if you replace an item that is already correctly connected, then ok. For example cistern, or tap. Connecting extra items should be inspected. There are physics laws that need to be looked such as fall, venting etc. 
Gas is definitley a NO. Licenced fitters only. LPG, NG, house, cars anything of gas nature.

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## Master Splinter

On the topic of DIY plumbing, here's a heads up for the Australian Plumber's Handbook and Plumber Training Manual.

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## Candlestikmaker

Perhaps you should add to the poll "Would you buy a house thats had diy Plumbing done?"

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## Uncle Bob

Yes for some things, eg: changing taps, some pipe work, small re-routes of non buried soil pipe.
No to sewer, big no to Gas and a maybe to some stormwater.    

> For me some more specific questions to define which DIY plumbing tasks should be permitted would have been better. Questions like:
> Should DIY toilet system replacement be allowed?
> Should DIY HWS replacement be allowed?
> Should DIY Hot and Cold water piping work be allowed?
> Should DIY sewer pipe work and connection be allowed? etc etc

  Stealing Juan's above  :Smilie:  
Should DIY toilet system replacement be allowed? Yes
Should DIY HWS replacement be allowed? No
Should DIY Hot and Cold water piping work be allowed? Yes
Should DIY sewer pipe work and connection be allowed? No

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## wonderplumb

> Yes for some things, eg: changing taps, some pipe work, small re-routes of non buried soil pipe.
> No to sewer, big no to Gas and a maybe to some stormwater.
> Should DIY toilet system replacement be allowed? Yes
> Should DIY HWS replacement be allowed? No
> Should DIY Hot and Cold water piping work be allowed? Yes
> Should DIY sewer pipe work and connection be allowed? No

   Some good replies and its interesting to read the feedback however, if it were allowed how would it be policed in the way of making sure approved fittings,fixtures and materials were used?
Like taps and toilets that met the standards in regards to wels requirements and prevention of back syphonage and or cross connections?
Hot and cold pipework that is still ultimately connected to an authorities main or main source of water?
Uncle Bob, a 'soil' pipe is classefied as sewer under the code, wether it be aerial drainage or a stack! :Biggrin: 
More so, if we _think_ we can do it and it seems a lot people do (after all its monkey's work, right?) how should the inspection/certification aspect of it be carried out?
For me (theoretically) it would need to be independant inspectors that have had previous experience (ex water board) or hydraulic consultants (diploma of plumbing technology) and I would want to see each and every part of the job like internals, rough ins, fit out etc but at around $130 p/h it might have been easier and cheaper to get your plumber in the first place!?!?

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## Terrian

> Yes for some things, eg: changing taps, some pipe work, small re-routes of non buried soil pipe.
> No to sewer, big no to Gas and a maybe to some stormwater.

  why no to sewer (ie, replacement of pipes for example, not referring to a new connection)

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## Arron

> Perhaps you should add to the poll "Would you buy a house thats had diy Plumbing done?"

  Well I just did, and actually the last owner did a terrific job. 
I'm less fond of his diy carpentry, but I knew all about that before I bought it. 
Arron

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## Uncle Bob

> why no to sewer (ie, replacement of pipes for example, not referring to a new connection)

  Just my opinion. They have to be laid right.

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## pharmaboy2

> Some good replies and its interesting to read the feedback however, if it were allowed how would it be policed in the way of making sure approved fittings,fixtures and materials were used?
> ?

  why are we so obsessed by "policing" in this country? 
If you want approved fixtures, then dont allow importation of non approved fixtures - pretty easily fixed.. 
the extent to which legislators get carried away is amply demonstrated by, i think its victoria, where any roofing work or gutter work has to be done by a plumber, i mean wtf?.  The only saving grace of these stupid rules in regards to just about everything, is that the large majority of the populous, goes about and ignores it anyway.  Paradoxically, it is the knowledge that it will be ignored that allows a legislature to say we cant change a flippin washer, and knows the world wont come to an end because we'll all do it anyway.. 
(If I were a plumber, I couldnt think of anything worse than been called out to change washers all day - be better off been a checkout chick) 
Inspectors for building works dont achieve anything, they niggle about stupid things and never check important things (too hard to climb ladders or get under houses etc), hard to imagine that plumbing inspectors would be any different. 
Now for the fear that the bottom 2% of the population have to be protected from themselves by legislating the rest of us (the lowest common denominator theory), well, they will do dumb things regardless, and thats why you properly inspect a house before purchasing  - caveat emptor. 
edit - BTW, it terribly interesting to note that on this site, electricians seem "mostly" (not all of course) to spend their time not helping people, and telling about the law (as if the questioner didnt know the sky was blue), while the plumbers are generally helpful or silent, and seem not be nearly so precious.  With the advent of push fit fittings for plumbing, its never been easier, and easy I do, difficult and without knowledge, i dont.

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## Ferdelberger

To protect us from cowboys like you.

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## Vernonv

> To protect us from cowboys like you.

  That's a fairly bold statement. I read pharmaboy's post and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion about him.  
The cowboys that are out there are not normally DIY'ers that have gone feral, they are more than likely dodgy tradesmen (whose trade is protected by the laws and policing that you are so keen on). So if you are having problems with cowboys maybe you should not always go for the cheapest quote and hire a better class of tradesman.

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## Ferdelberger

How did I arrive at that conclusion?   

> The only saving grace of these stupid rules in regards to just about everything, is that the large majority of the populous, goes about and ignores it anyway.

  If you do not like the rules you go through the correct procedures to try and have them changed not just ignore them.    

> Now for the fear that the bottom 2% of the population have to be protected from themselves by legislating the rest of us (the lowest common denominator theory), well, they will do dumb things regardless, and thats why you properly inspect a house before purchasing - caveat emptor.

  I do not know where you got the figure 2% from but it is not only the fools who will break any rule that we need to protect here. Caveat emptor - what a laugh.  How much would it cost to have a house properly inspected to uncover dodgy plumbing and wiring? I do not believe you could do it without demolishing half the bloody house and I am sure the owner would agree to that. 
I think Candlestikmaker summed it up   

> Perhaps you should add to the poll "Would you buy a house thats had diy Plumbing done?"

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## Vernonv

> If you do not like the rules you go through the correct procedures to try and have them changed not just ignore them.

  Your joking, right?  
Most of the rules are developed to satisfy a politician or minority groups agenda, or to protect a stupid minority, and are not for the benefit of the majority.  
Unless you are a politician (with the balance of power would be good) or have your own lobby group, you have buckleys of overturning these laws/rules. 
I don't see why I should suffer (by being restricted) to protect some idiot, that will probably continue to do his/her utmost to harm/kill themselves regardless of the rules.

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## pharmaboy2

> How did I arrive at that conclusion? 
> If you do not like the rules you go through the correct procedures to try and have them changed not just ignore them.

  I'm sure you never driven above the speed limit when overtaking, or crossed a solid white line, or done a u turn where its illegal.  Unlike you, i am not perfect, but I'm well intelligent enough to change a washer, or replace a failed tap body, not to mention as per the other thread replace a broken light switch.  
What really concerns me though, is that there maybe people around who are possessed of such little DIY competence that they wont change a tap body, but will happily construct a deck and pergola attached to a house......;( 
BTW, cowboys generally go at things without knowledge, and dont care about the knowledge. I'd rather buy a house from a fastidious and careful owner builder that did whatever he could, than from pretty much any project home builder. 
yeah, i know, but its the law...... 
edit - just reminded me of the 2 really dodgy bits of construction on my house that I had to renovate - and by shear fluke, both are problems of a plumbers making - so by inferation the cowboys i've had to clean up after have been tradesmen.   fortunately i bump into many more good tradesman that cowboys - thats urban life for ya.

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## Smurf

If there's no DIY then does that mean I'll be able to get a decent plumber to come and do the work at a time that suits me instead? 
Or will I be left without running water in the same way as people wait 2 years (literally) trying to find an electrician to put some lights in? 
Overall, I think "NO" for anything that involves gas as the risks are just too high.  
But if it's just installing off the shelf fittings in place of existing ones or replacing tap washers then I can't see the problem. 
A few questions (electrical and plumbing) that might help a bit here. What is the reason for having the following items? Where would you find them? And how do they work? If you don't know then you shouldn't really be messing with it... RCDSacrificial anodeMEN linkTPR valve

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## nev25

> same way as people wait 2 years (literally) trying to find an electrician to put some lights in?

  More like the Electrician has to wait 2 years for payment

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## Smurf

What next? Only a mechanic can put petrol in a car? Only a doctor can apply a band-aid to a small cut? I'm not allowed to catch a rat if I'm not a licensed pest controller? Can't set up a stereo system at home without being an audio engineer? This could get ridiculous. I'll need a qualified arborist to prune the roses soon. :Tongue:

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## Gooner

> If you do not like the rules you go through the correct procedures to try and have them changed not just ignore them.

  ....and in the meantime, while I am writing letters to my MP waiting for the laws to be changed, I will call a plumber to change a washer because the law assumes I am not competent enough to do so. God forbid I stuff up installing a new washer. I may end up killing my neighbours....or worse....

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## autogenous

Plumbing is attached to government infrastructure. The faeces grid is not to be messed with. 
To hell with them  :Biggrin:  I wished Id done a plumbers apprenticeship instead.
What an idiot. 
There is no romance in building anymore. Its poisoned with regulation and litigation. Our future is sugar cube kennels filled with sterility Suburbs called estates bound by rules . People don't own land anymore its governed by Queens council.  There is no passion just permits. 
You can have anything as long as it is a painted box with birdshit roof tiles. 
No room for experimentation or creativity.

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## ChunkyCharcoal

I've been a long time lurker of this forum and it is a great resource for those of us that did not choose to pursue a career in a trade of some type. 
I've read with interest a few different threads regarding certain jobs that we as laymen should or should not do as a DIY project... 
Now I may get slammed for saying this but I'm probably the most guilty person on these forums for illegal DIY work and the more I do the more it is starting to concern me. Why? Not because I have done a substandard job but because it may harm my resale potential as none of the work is certified by a "governing body".    
To be completely honest, I could not have afforded to do the renovation work I have done if I had to pay my local council for approvals and then get a tradesman to do the work for me. This is my first house and my parents raised me to work hard for what I get and to get ahead as best I can. I'm not one of my generation that was willing to take out a $500,000 mortgage and buy a McMansion with all the bells and whistles. I bought what I could afford and am doing my best to get ahead in life. 
I want to be clear that I have done all my own plumbing, electrical, building, plastering, tiling & flooring work with the help of my father. I have learn so much over the last year and have spent quality time with my father doing so. I'm very proud of what we have achieved and when my father is gone I will look back with fond memories at the time we were under the house and a cold water fitting that I put in exploded and drenched us both and my father called me a dickhead.. I've broken all the rules but am I sorry? No, not really... but I'm sure I will be if the council get onto me.  
My father(now into his 70's) is very knowledgeable as he was taught by his father in the times that you had to DIY. It pisses me off that in this day and age we are not trusted to exercise our common sense when it comes to home renovation and so many other things in life. They have taken away all our initiative and inventiveness and as a result my generation has been robbed of the opportunity to learn by our mistakes. I fear for my children as by then it will almost be illegal to leave the house! 
Before I do any job I spend alot of time finding out how to do it properly and safely and did not do any work that I considered dangerous. I got advice from tradespeople and relatives etc. and am confident that all the work I have done is perfectly safe and will still be there in 50 years from now. But I am a criminal for doing so. You know why? Because I'm intelligent enough to comprehend what is required to do a job and motivated enough to go and do it!

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## wonderplumb

Mate you might be the guru at bending and silver soldering copper pipe and replacing taps or toilet suites and it isnt hard work but can we identify potential hazards regarding cross conection or back syphonage or even sinple things as brazing materials that can make you and your family, quite possibly the neighbourhood rather ill. A job I done at kirrawee a few years ago changing a buggered duo valve on a HWS up the side of the house. I turned off the meter, removed the duo valve, went to the ute for a fitting or something and came back to find 'bloo loo' draining out of the inlet pipe to the HWS. From the ensuite, past the bathroom, past the kitchen & laundry then out to the heater. The cistern inlet valve had been put in by her husband only weeks earlier and was an unknown brand with no markings he got from 'some place'. Once I explained to her how it all works and the potential effects of this blue rubbish people used she was livid, as I would have been with two young kids.
Now just imagine how he would of felt if the unthinkable had of happened.

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## Bros

> I want to be clear that I have done all my own plumbing, electrical, building, plastering, tiling & flooring work with the help of my father.

  Of all those trades listed you are legally able to do plumbing (roofing) building, plastering tiling and flooring legally provided you follow a few rules as I have done it.
Firstly you have to submit plans to the council for approval and I have found them very helpful with suggesting changes and then have it inspected. You can draw your own plans to their spec's Sometimes they might require and engineers certificate. If you do it this way it is on file and you don't have any problems when you are selling. 
In my previous house the plumber over the road gave me all the fittings advise and inspection when I installed a second toilet. When I came to sell it is wasn't on the plan so he had to submit an extension and pay a fee 20 yrs after we installed the toilet. 
If the value is over a certain value you are required to attend a owner buiders course first, mine was below that value.

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## ChunkyCharcoal

> Mate you might be the guru at bending and silver soldering copper pipe and replacing taps or toilet suites and it isnt hard work but can we identify potential hazards regarding cross conection or back syphonage or even sinple things as brazing materials that can make you and your family, quite possibly the neighbourhood rather ill. A job I done at kirrawee a few years ago changing a buggered duo valve on a HWS up the side of the house. I turned off the meter, removed the duo valve, went to the ute for a fitting or something and came back to find 'bloo loo' draining out of the inlet pipe to the HWS. From the ensuite, past the bathroom, past the kitchen & laundry then out to the heater. The cistern inlet valve had been put in by her husband only weeks earlier and was an unknown brand with no markings he got from 'some place'. Once I explained to her how it all works and the potential effects of this blue rubbish people used she was livid, as I would have been with two young kids.
> Now just imagine how he would of felt if the unthinkable had of happened.

  I know what you are saying Wonderplumb and I agree. As I said I didn't do any work I considered dangerous and by that I mean anything I could not work out how to do myself confidently. I would never take on anything like rewiring or installing a complete plumbing system etc. I just feel that I am intelligent enough to reroute home wires and GPO's or move my vanity position or replace the toilet. You know what I'm trying to say?

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## wonderplumb

I understand fully what you are saying mate and in no way am I having a personal dig at you, if it came across that way I apologise as it wasnt my intention. 
 Frankly Id be concerned if someone couldnt nut out how to remove an inlet valve and drop a new one in, kinda like a bloke who doesnt know how to change a tyre (and yes they are out there!)
However, this bloke didnt know where or how to look for the watermark or an AS certification number (there wasnt one) and it was sheer luck that it hadnt made someone sick.
The valve in question I took up to one of my old TAFE teachers who was the president of the local Master Plumbers branch at the time, from there on to Sydney Water and SAI global and was found to be a chinese knock off of another popular brand of valve.
There are regulations and rules and restrictions in place to protect the health and safety of the general public and to stop people seriously injuring or killing themselves and/or others and guess what, it seems to work! 
There is a reason this course takes six years to complete aswell as other relative courses you choose to do along the way and it is a full on trade course to do.
I studied for seven years and spent thousands on an education to build a career in my chosen line of work, outlay a heap on running my little business and work to the letter, and people wonder why licensed tradesmen get upset when DIY'ers and handymen say its all bullshyte and that trades should be deregulated so the punter can save a few bucks, and dare I say it ultimately costing them more! :Tongue:

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## juan

> I just feel that I am intelligent enough to reroute home wires and GPO's or move my vanity position or replace the toilet.

  Chunky you may be intelligent enough but how does the Govt deregulate trades like electrical and plumbing yet still provide the protection that consumers like myself demand. Rerouting wires sound simple and in most cases is but at times it is not so simple and involves the need to increase size of cable etc due to length of run or the new medium in which the cable is run.
We have possibly the best and safest electrical and plumbing systems in the world and they got they way through keeping standards high through regulation of who can perform the tasks and the manner in which they must be performed. 
I am an electrician(not a contractor) and am at times frustrated by the regulations that prevent me from performing plumbing tasks that I feel confident to perform. But when I look at the large picture I realise that regulation of the trades is not just a Goverment scam to rip us off but rather a method of protecting us and ensuring we stay on top of the game in terms of safety and quality of work. 
I do not believe it is practical to allow unqualified persons to perform electrical and plumbing work even under supervision or inspection. It would be cost prohibitive. If they allow open slather and have anyone who thinks they can perform the work do it then we would soon sink to the standards of many other less fortunate countries. 
Here is a lady who has the plumbing and electrical DIY game down to a fine art.

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## ChunkyCharcoal

I agree with all you say Juan and I realise how important it is to have regulations that create a safe environment for us to live in. I lament the fact that I am not allowed to do my own work, I can't have a go myself... There can never be a happy medium and I know that regulation is vitally important. It just seems that my generation lives every facet of our lives "regulated". It is enough to make me want to sell up and live in a remote location where nobody can tell me what to do or how to live my life.  
Modern society I guess... :Annoyed:

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## juan

Chunky it is not the DIY folk like us who come to this forum that worry me because we care enough to make the effort to find the correct way to do things from those who do know and who are willing to share the knowledge.  My concern is with the people who make no effort whatsoever to find out what the regulations are and could not care about _stupid regulations_ anyway. They just buy a tin of glue, some plumbing or  electrical fittings from Bunnies and go for their life. As long as she works its ok they think. It is often the people who get stuck with their handiwork down the track that suffer either physically or financially.

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## Vernonv

> Chunky it is not the DIY folk like us who come to this forum that worry me because we care enough to make the effort to find the correct way to do things from those who do know and who are willing to share the knowledge. My concern is with the people who make no effort whatsoever to find out what the regulations are and could not care about _stupid regulations_ anyway. They just buy a tin of glue, some plumbing or electrical fittings from Bunnies and go for their life. As long as she works its ok they think. It is often the people who get stuck with their handiwork down the track that suffer either physically or financially.

  These people (you worry about) exist now, and we have regulation. These people will still exist if the regulations change to allow DIY plumbing. The only difference is that people who do care about the quality of the job they do, can't legally do plumbing under the current system. 
If the system was changed you would get more people getting their work inspected, rather than the current system where the DIY'ers have no option to have their work inspected and approved.

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## wonderplumb

To get work inspected Id imagine they'd  want a notice of intent to do your own work with everything listed and quite possibly drawn to scale before they would grant a permit, which would attract a fee. When youve bought all your gear and associated tooling and done the job you book the inspector in and pay him by the hour to crawl over your house and check absolutely everything (his licence rides on this) including a hydrostatic pressure test which can take a few hours, If youve done some drainage you may have to fork out for a camera inspection to satisfy him its all OK.
This is only a scenario and a very (hypothetically) probable process, its how I would imagine the relevant authorities wanting it done.
Being a very expensive day rounding off at say $1500 who would bother doing this??
It would end up worse than ever as far as shoddy work goes.

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## Vernonv

> Being a very expensive day rounding off at say $1500 who would bother doing this??

  Expensive maybe, but it would be nice to have the option.   

> It would end up worse than ever as far as shoddy work goes.

  I guess this it the bit I don't get - how can it make the shoddy work situation worse. Currently DIYers have no option to get their work approved. Surely, giving them this option can only reduce the amount of shoddy work. Sure there will be DIYers that still won't get their work approved (even if they could), but they would be doing the work regardless. At least providing the option (for inspections) allows "honest" DIYers to remain honest and have their work checked.

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## wonderplumb

Still theoretically speaking of course, it would make the situation worse in that it would have to be a major job to warrant that sort of cost as this process would have to be adhered to on each and every job.
 If for example you remodel your kitchen and move the sink 1m either side, you move the waste and modify the water points to accomodate a mixer. Sure you may have saved $500 on the plumbing but the cost of the inspection doesnt seem worth it, does it?
A little off the mark but take gas for example. You call me to simply change a bayonet fitting that runs the BBQ out on the back deck. A simple job, $25 part and a call out fee (which varies from plumber to plumber).
Under the terms of my licence I have a legal obligation to then test the entire installation and if it fails, find the leak and fix it or disable the installation and notify the authority. a lot of people are shocked to hear this over the phone and dont want a bar of it and the same would happen with this theoretical DIY situation.
But these are only my views.......... 
A funny story...I disabled a guys gas service as there was a leak, the testing part only takes a couple of minutes but there was a good leak and he accused me of being a theif and what not, a typical left wing tradie hating nut!
Not being satisfied with taking the handle off the ball valve and plugging the meter I cut out the pipework on the outlet side and squeezed it off with this bloke yelling abuse and threatening to call the police etc, the following phone calls were good with him telling me he was gonna 'get me' and then take me to court because he was cold and he had no hot water and his wife couldnt cook and blah blah blah.
So I get a call from an inspector from Alinta to meet him onsite for a mediation I guess you could call it. Met them onsite with this bloke foaming at the mouth, the inspector got me to run the leak detector and there it was as plain as day. This bloke then started abusing the inspector calling him a theif and we were all a bunch of c***s to which the inspector told him to shut his mouth, slapped him with a notice and got a crew to disable it in the street untill such time the leak was fixed and inspected by him.

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## juan

This story is currently on the ABC News site   

> *Faulty wiring creates 'death trap homes': Archicentre* 
>  Posted 45 minutes ago 
> Updated 12 minutes ago     There are 11,000 house fires reported each year, and faulty electrical wiring is often the cause. (ABC News: Gary Rivett) 
>  <script type="text/javascript"> <!--                         if (typeof showPhotos == 'function') showPhotos('2468300-mediarss.xml');                     --> </script> 
>  The Australian Institute of Architects says almost one third of homes in some states have faulty electrical wiring which could result in them being potential death traps.
>  The Institute's building advisory service, Archicentre, says it has surveyed more than 100,000 homes across Australia.
>  It says about a third of houses in Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia were found to have electrical faults, which were often the result of *illegal wiring*.
>  Just over 20 per cent of homes in Queensland and Western Australia had similar problems.
>  The Archicentre says electrical faults are responsible for many of the 11,000 house fires reported in Australia on average each year.

  Sorry it should be on the electrical poll site but I think there is a tenuous link.

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## Vernonv

> If for example you remodel your kitchen and move the sink 1m either side, you move the waste and modify the water points to accomodate a mixer. Sure you may have saved $500 on the plumbing but the cost of the inspection doesnt seem worth it, does it?

  Sure, but I doubt the required inspection for this kind work would cost more than a couple of hundred $. So the DIYer could still save a few $100 and gain the satisfaction and reassurance of doing the job themselves. 
I was doing some more work on the bathroom today and as I was vacuuming out the wall cavity prior to sheeting it (I don't like to leave mess in there :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) I was wondering if a tradie would ever do such a thing ... I doubt that would be a productive use of their time or the customer's money, but for a DIYer (who has more time than money) it adds to the overall quality (feeling) of the job. Also I don't mind "wasting" a day fixing a small issue, because I expect a high standard of work (well my wife does :Blush7: ) and it doesn't really cost me anything - but it would a tradie and their customer. 
I'm certainly not bagging tradies - it's a job for them and they have to make money - I can understand that. I just want to be free to do a job that at the very least matches the quality, but preferably exceeds the quality, that a tradie would do it - it's not always about money.

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## Ashore

> I was doing some more work on the bathroom today and as I was vacuuming out the wall cavity prior to sheeting it (I don't like to leave mess in there) I was wondering if a tradie would ever do such a thing ... I doubt that would be a productive use of their time or the customer's money, but for a DIYer (who has more time than money) it adds to the overall quality (feeling) of the job. Also I don't mind "wasting" a day fixing a small issue, because I expect a high standard of work (well my wife does) and it doesn't really cost me anything - but it would a tradie and their customer.

  Spot on , thats why you can pick a DIY job running cables for example , its too good  :2thumbsup:

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## elkangorito

I think that plumbing, like electrical, has many hidden & dangerous aspects, of which the average DIYer may not be aware & be able to correctly tackle.
From what I've heard throughout this 'Great DIY Debate', it appears that sensible limits need to be applied to all DIY work. Simply banning a practice doesn't necessarily allow for a safer outcome. 
Having been a Facilities Manager, I know that plumbing can be just as dangerous & as complicated as electrical work. 
A neat job is exactly that...neat. Neatness may allow someone to falsely think that the job is in some way safer or better than an untidy job. Notwithstanding this, sometimes untidiness can be unsafe.
I have inspected many jobs done by various trades & I always inspect the "neat" jobs with more vigour than other less tidy jobs. Sometimes, neatness is used to distract ones attention away from faulty workmanship.

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## ChunkyCharcoal

> I was doing some more work on the bathroom today and as I was vacuuming out the wall cavity prior to sheeting it (I don't like to leave mess in there) I was wondering if a tradie would ever do such a thing ... I doubt that would be a productive use of their time or the customer's money, but for a DIYer (who has more time than money) *it adds to the overall quality (feeling) of the job. Also I don't mind "wasting" a day fixing a small issue, because I expect a high standard of work (well my wife does) and it doesn't really cost me anything - but it would a tradie and their customer.* 
> I'm certainly not bagging tradies - it's a job for them and they have to make money - I can understand that. *I just want to be free to do a job that at the very least matches the quality, but preferably exceeds the quality, that a tradie would do it - it's not always about money.*

  Good points. :brava:    

> A neat job is exactly that...neat. Neatness may allow someone to falsely think that the job is in some way safer or better than an untidy job. Notwithstanding this, sometimes untidiness can be unsafe.
> I have inspected many jobs done by various trades & I always inspect the "neat" jobs with more vigour than other less tidy jobs. Sometimes, neatness is used to distract ones attention away from faulty workmanship.

  I've always respected your posts in the past but this one is a bit rich for me... 
You can't seriously say that you target those that take pride in their work...??? :Shock:

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## elkangorito

> Originally Posted by *elkangorito*
> A neat job is exactly that...neat. Neatness may allow someone to falsely think that the job is in some way safer or better than an untidy job. Notwithstanding this, sometimes untidiness can be unsafe.
> I have inspected many jobs done by various trades & I always inspect the "neat" jobs with more vigour than other less tidy jobs. Sometimes, neatness is used to distract ones attention away from faulty workmanship.
> 			
> 		   I've always respected your posts in the past but this one is a bit rich for me... 
> You can't seriously say that you target those that take pride in their work...???

  I'm sorry if I was misunderstood.
I do not "target" those that take pride in their work but experience has taught me that sometimes neatness can be used as a means of distraction. As a general rule, I treat all the work done in the same way but I sometimes feel suspicious about very neat jobs. 99% of the time, the job is not only very neat, it is also very well done. It's only the odd "bad apple" that abuses this situation.
I'm sure that if you were in my shoes, you would do the same.
Most honest & good tradesmen that I've used, welcome a thorough inspection & they do not get upset if I feel suspicious because they know about the "bad apples" that do take advantage of "appearances". 
One can always find faults with most jobs done (usually minor).

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## nev25

> Spot on , thats why you can pick a DIY job running cables for example , its too good

  Absolute BS   

> . 
> I was doing some more work on the bathroom today and as I was vacuuming out the wall cavity prior to sheeting it (I don't like to leave mess in there) I was wondering if a tradie would ever do such a thing ... I doubt that would be a productive use of their time or the customer's money, but for a DIYer (who has more time than money) it adds to the overall quality (feeling) of the job. Also I don't mind "wasting" a day fixing a small issue, because I expect a high standard of work (well my wife does) and it doesn't really cost me anything - but it would a tradie and their customer.

  You have hit the nail on the head there 
I for one would clean up and I do usually vacuum after Ive finished 
But the bottom line is I (as all trademen) charge by the hour and have been accused of milking the customer by spending more time on the job doing what the homeowner can do CLEAN UP

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## wonderplumb

I dont necessarily polish the place after the work is done, but any rubbish is always removed off site, things get swept up and wiped down iff needed and, it only takes five minutes to do! 
Ive never had anyone question a bill because I tidied up after myself! Most people appreciate it and are suprised its being done in the first place. Wether its my own place or someone elses I dont leave sawdust and crap inside a wall either.
So five minutes to tidy up _is_ a productive five minutes and as for the $6 or so it would cost the customer ( :Eek: ) its money well spent I reckon.

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## Ashore

> Spot on , thats why you can pick a DIY job running cables for example , its too good

   

> Absolute BS

   Me thinks you doth protest too much  :Rolleyes:

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## pr2jd2b

> I think that, pretty much, most plumbing tasks could be competently carried out by the DIYer given a bit of imformation (and obviously assuming the DIY culprit chooses to actually read the info and abide by it...). Whilst I would not attempt to dig up my garden to try and fix a broken sewer pipe or the like, I don't believe that many people would go to the expense of digging down to it and then try to save a few extra bucks by doing the repair themselves. In my mind that is definately a job for a pro.
> On the other hand, to change over an old set of wall stops for new ones, replace the kitchen tap, or cut a hole in my tin roof to put a vent pipe out through really is something the home owner should be allowed to do if comfortable. I think people view DIY plumbing as a much lesser evil than DIY electrical work, as, in most cases, the thing being carried, ie the water, can be seen. A leak is usually obvious if you take the time to look, and if one does occur, at best a quick trip out to the meter will have it shut off until you can rectify the leak, and at worst you may end up with a load of termites eating your house. 
> Not so sure about gas though. I still think it can be done perfectly well by the DIYer, but obviously the risks from a bad job are worse.

  I am not a plumber, I used to own a house in Blacktown (NSW), I was getting brown rusty water everytime I turned the tap on, I decided to replace ALL the old iron pipes in the house with copper, I bought 2 pipe bending tools, an old kerozine blow torch, and a pipe flaring tool. I did the entire job in 1 week, wasted a bit of material but saved $100s. I now own a property in Avondale Qld, I installed a gas hot water system at the side of my shipping container so I could shower after working on the building and connected the garden hose to it, I fixed a gas leak (DONT USE A LIGHTER OR A MATCH TO FIND-IT, use soap suds) it works fine, I am thinking of doing the same to my new house and have it inspected by a professional. As far as I am concerned if you can connect a BBQ, you should be able to connect the water and gas to your house. As far as the sanitary aspects are concerned, if you can cope with the smell, then why not fix-it yourself ? It's not rocket science and you're not dealing with NUCLEAR WASTE, the Local Council and the Plumbers Union are a Fecophobic 
closed shop that dont like Owner Builders who can put a big dent in their $1m industry by bringing new legislation enabling Owner Builders to do their own Plumbing, a plumber will charge $20,000 minimum for a 2 bedroom house. If as an Owner Builder you are expected to do a course, what's wrong with an Owner Plumber Course ?

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## wonderplumb

"Fecophobic closed shop"........ now that's just "tradephobic".

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## Moondog55

Having had to deal with much sub-standard work that had to be re-done in the lat 4 weeks I'm  sure I could do just as badly as a bloke with a certificate, and the problem with non standard parts is easy to fix, as has already been posted; just stop the importation of cheap shoddy Chinese crap into retailers like Bunnys.

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## Geno62

I'd agree with Moondog, we are letting to much below standard rubbish on the shelves, there is a need to make sure what is sold is actually fit for the purpose. I'm not a fan though of DIY plumbing or electrical but have done a bit over the years mainly changer over of GPO's washers etc. Anything else is best checked by a tradesman, neat is not always right and in the end if something you have done fails there is the problem of insurance. There are plenty of people who think they know what they are doing and it is usually those most scathing of tradesmen that are the worst offenders when it comes to shoddy work.  
The problem will always be how do you minimise the shonky DIY and tradesman without being to heavy handed and over regulating those industries. Perhaps a more effective fine system for those caught that have performed dangerous and defective work.

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## wonderplumb

> I'd agree with Moondog, we are letting to much below standard rubbish on the shelves 
> There are plenty of people who think they know what they are doing and it is usually those most scathing of tradesmen that are the worst offenders when it comes to shoddy work.

  Absolutely, and yes, you nailed it there.

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## woodbe

I've had a few plumbers around here. Some have been great blokes who have done great work, some have just been great blokes, and others have been complete d*ckheads.  
The ratio of good work to bad work has been about 30/70. Sometimes I wonder if they only take the stupid end of the class to be plumbers. I'm not including Bricks or his mate in this, they are in the great blokes/great work category. 
One guy we had around to hopefully fix a regularly blocking bathroom basin never came into the house. He was convinced that he could fix it with the machine. After I told him where the pipe was he spent ages looking for it somewhere else and eventually told me he would have to request a plan and come back another day. I took his shovel off him and unearthed the pipe in about a minute. He got out his machine and had his way with the pipe. Seemed happy. I decided we were wasting our time. He asked if the drain was clear now, and I said I was sure it was, he could pack up. I paid him and went inside and scratched that plumbing company out of the phone book. I cleared the problem in the waste pipe inside the bathroom later myself. 
Another time we had a sewer blockage in the garden. The plumber came and put his gadget down both ends of the pipe and marked a spot in the garden. He told me I could pay him his hourly rate to dig a metre or so down to the pipe or I could dig the hole. I agreed to dig the hole, he cleared off. I dug the hole and fixed the pipe and shouted my wife and I out to dinner on the savings. 
Probably, Sewer and Gas should be done by licensed tradesmen. I reckon anyone who pays attention could do the rest of it at least as well as the worst plumber likely to come and charge you a fortune to do it, and you probably won't have to wait days for them to turn up either. I'd tell you the story about the plumber who used to sit in his van making phone calls while the whole renovation waited for him to finish his pipes, but I've already said too much  :Smilie:  
woodbe

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## takai

Ill chip in here, sick of waiting for plumbers to call back, or even to show up and waste a morning at home while they never show up.
Plus getting a good plumber in SA is hard at the moment due to the SA Water retrofit taking up the time of most of the plumbers i actually trust. 
What exacerbates it is the last time i had a plumber around to install a HWS after the last one died he cracked two tiles on the roof, while looking for the gas line (which I pointed out to him as he started the work). Fine, cracked tiles is something i can deal with, easily, i have ~50 in the shed. But instead in his infinite wisdom he decided to silicone up the tiles instead, and failed miserably:  
His dodgy work let in about 40L of rain (5x9L buckets mostly full) on the day last year where we had 38mm of rain. To make things worse it drained into the roof cavity ontop of the air conditioner ducting and managed to drain through that ducting through 4 separate rooms, damaging the ceiling and parquetry there. 
Not only that his abject refusal to man up and admit fault (despite his boot prints being in the roof underneath, and his ladder marks in the garden bed), meant that i had to wear the $6k+ of damage he caused (or at least insurance had to). Plus this refusal meant that during the insurance process a Plumbing assessor had to come and inspect the work, and lo and behold he had installed the new HWS incorrectly, too close to the nearest window opening. 
So in this current quest to find a plumber to simply replace a toilet bowl (as the regs require), im getting quite annoyed and grumpy about the entire state of DIY stuff in this country.

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## RockleeT

What do they say? "Don't risk it, use a licensed plumber"

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## chrisp

> What do they say? "Don't risk it, use a licensed plumber"

  ... and check their work and re-tighten the fittings that leak after they leave!  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

I'll chip in here. Just had the floors polished and I retiled the ensuite while the house was empty. I removed the old crapper and got onto my plumber for a price to replace it. He never called me back. So I talked to a plumber that was working across the street and he had a look and quoted $ 350 *cash*. This was just labour, I was supplying *everything* else. Very simple install, high set house all exposed plumbing. Drop down from the floor and straight out into a new stack that I furno joined onto the old cast iron stack after cutting it off and bevelling the inside edge. Well, long storey short, I fitted it in 4 hours, including cutting the stack and the floor ( changed location). Ive never even touched a toilet before let alone fit one. If a qualified plumber could do that job in 1.5 hours I'll stand bare arsed in coles. While I was there I also re did a heap of pipe work for the new vanity got rid of heaps of compression fittings and brazed everything. So easy for anyone with half a brain and a bit of welding experience. Sorry plumbers, but you wont get my $$$ again.

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## Danny

> If a qualified plumber *could* do that job in 1.5 hours I'll stand bare arsed in coles.

  Hi ringtail, 
Unless its a typo, I think you might be visiting Coles!

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## ringtail

No way mate. In 4 hours I did the following, 
Remove old bog and lead pipe
Remove bricks and mortar where the old lead pipe went through the wall into the old cast iron stack
Cut and remove the old cast iron stack
Get the grinder and put a bevel on the inside edge of the old cast iron stack so the poo dont stick
Measure and mark the set out for the new bog
Cut the hole
Do all the PVC work including a new stack and furnco
Re do the copper pipe to the dunny fully brazed
Leave the house twice and go to the plumbers supplies 5 km away
Give it a test. 
I started a 12 and finished at 4 with plenty of thinking time, umming and ahhing and copying what my plumber did on our other dunny 6 months ago to make sure it was right. All the plumber would have to do is the PVC work and 45 cm of new pipe ( with absolutely all parts including glue and primer and 15 % solder supplied by me). I was always going to remove the old bog, cut, remove and bevel the cast iron. $ 350 cash is robbery. A qualified plumber should be able to do all the angles etc with his eyes closed quickly and neatly. I ginned around a lot and still only took 4 hours.

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## Danny

Hi again ringtail,  
I agree with what you say and very well done but I think that the use of the word *could* is a typo. I am sure that a competent plumber *could* do the basic job in 1.5 hours but I wouldn't like you to feel obligated to stand in Coles feeling the breeze on your nether regions if one *could*!  :Omg:

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## ringtail

Cant be worse that what I see up there most times I go. I'd just keep away from the cold section and go for the warmth of the hot chook oven

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## takai

I think you were after the negated conjugated form.... *Couldn't*

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## Oldneweng

It already is in some situations. A qualified plumber is only required in Victoria if the plumbing is connected to a public supply. My water supply is entirely supplied from my property and I don't have public water within 25kms. I also have a septic system on my property. About 95% of my plumbing has been installed by me. I did get a plumber to put in a drainage system for my septic as he had the equipment. I think that I am capable of doing almost all plumbing work myself but if you are asking if anyone should be allowed to do it then the law has to consider the lowest common denominator. I think there are many people out there who are not capable of turning a tap on the right way, so the answer has to consider some means of determining a persons capability. 
When it comes to qualified tradespeople I think some of them should not be allowed to do the job either. I had a fuse box replaced with brand new circuit breakers, switches and a rcd. This was installed by the electrician from my work. He deals with complex 3 phase systems and the latest computer control devices. He told me after about an hour of messing around that my rcd may be faulty. He then read the instructions that came with it and fixed the problem. 
Presumably qualified tradespeople installed our kitchen range. The flue is way off straight and it has started leaking when it rains. I asked for a chimney cap which covers the chimney and bends down the sides to keep rain out. They had no idea what I was talking about and just supplied a flat sheet. This sheet now leaks because the surface went rusty and the silastic which was the only thing keeping water out has come unstuck. I am going to make a new one which folds over the sides of the chimney and has the edge around the flue bent up. A friend had a slow combustion stove fitted in a new house and called the plumber back before he had got home as it had started raining and leaked. My point is that most trades people should not be allowed to do qualified work. My feeling is that many of these see a trade as a way of making money without thinking of the consequences. Just because you have been to tradeschool it doesn't mean you kn ow what you are doing. 
I am not having a go at all trades people. Only the ones that don't think beyond the next paycheck. There are two kinds. Those that think and those that don't. If you talk to one throw a few curly ones at them. If they say you cant do that ask why. If they have a genuine answer ok but if their answer sounds like "mum told me so" (TAFE) get out fast. A good tradie will have a good answer, a bad one wont. 
I had a problem with the central locking on my car when in Adelaide earlier this year while my wife was in hospital having surgery for breast cancer. The key fobs stopped working. I was told of the general problem by a ford dealer and advised to go to an auto electrician if I wanted to get problem fixed rather than complete replacement as ford dealers do. The guy they recommended was sitting behind the counter when I walked in. His answer was bring the car in. He'll have a look. Would not confirm any of my suspicions. Would not give anything away, at all. Bring the car in. My wife was in the car. Hospital leave for an hour or two. Bring the car in. My interpretation was "let me clock up a few hours on it and we will see". I mentioned an after market central locking system to hook in and was told it would not work because it would not work with the smart lock system. I bought a central locking update from ebay for $16.00 total. Just provides the box and key fobs and wiring. I have not fitted it yet but have no doubts it will work as it is just switching for the door servos. There is the open wire, supply power, it opens, same for close. All operate the same. The circuit is on wikipedia. He just wanted to make money from me. 
I know I can do it but I still think that most people out there cannot. Choosing who can and who cannot is the problem. The system in place at the moment is not working in my opinion. I rarely use tradies because I have to work out if they are qualified to my standards first. This is a problem that has been around since I can remember. I could go on all night about examples. Ford dealer who told me how to fix smart lock for free. Dry joints, common problem, resolder. Fixed for free. Nissan dealer who wouldn't give timing angle for fear they would be sued. Avoid like the plague. If they are open with information worth trying but if they will not give anything away tell them to p--s off. The ford dealer has a fantastic record with working with my cars and has always been very reasonable with prices, open and asks permission before doing anything. A pre repair inspection noticed a harmonic balancer seperating on the rubber joint. Fixed for a cheap price and what would happen if they hadn't picked it. I live 90km away. Yes it was genuine. Half the rubber showing and not aligned with othe pulleys. If you find a good one stick with them as long as long as it lasts. 
Dean

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## Steffen595

one end of the meter hangs on a 1m long run, bent once. The other end supported 25NB gal pipe dangling freely for several meters. 
Got house redone recently. Put at east 10 more clamps in because I found the plumbing underneath the house rather loose. Solar hot water is a mess since they had no experience with the Apricus. Surprise, its hooked up to the tank in the same manner as any other one. Plus, gave them the booklet and a schematic. Thats for DIYers not reading the necessary stuff. Rain water pump connected the wrong way around. Surprise, there is just 2 options. Plus it has a pressure gage, which would not be on the suction site, unless its a vacuum pump. Plus it has a 9L bladder. Laundry trough was leaking, one pipe was not glued in properly and the connection to the stainless did not line up, they just put loads of silicone around it, took me 2 hrs to clean up that one. If this is to Australian standards, than I would want them printed on toilet paper for what they are worth. Heard Australian apprenticeship takes 4 years, no idea what for. If thats what you get from a tradie, what would you get fro a DIY person? Of course its not legal then.
Closing bath tap first it nearly stops, but it sill did not feel closed. Turning further, all od sudden runs again. Here is why 
Bloke used to take cars apart in his shed, suppose never got them together. His dad did the wiring. Not going into that, its the plumbing forum.

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## brettsyoung

First of all I'm assuming we are talking fairly major jobs, not just replacing a dunny bowl or tap fitting or the odd length of stormwater pipe.  So my view is Yes, but in the end it depends on accessibility to a quality plumber. 
Years ago we needed extensive plumbing work done and sought three quotes.  The first never got back after inspecting the job (there was four weeks gone); the second came up with ridiculous solutions and an even more ridiculous price (another three); and the third was a godsend.  Dan (Hewitt in Grabben Gullen if anyone is interested) comes on time (even in sub-zero, rainy weather), is reasonably priced, cleans up after himself, lets me do all the monkey work to keep costs down, is quick and is a good bloke who likes my wife's cupcakes.  Dan's been doing my plumbing jobs for several years now - even unblocking drains and the like which I have always done myself.  So for mine, the answer is a good tradesman makes DIY plumbing largely unnecessary, but the lack off makes the reverse the case. 
cheers
Brett

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## Oldneweng

That would be why everyone wants to do it themselves. They haven't found a plumber like him. 
Dean

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## pr2jd2b

> What next? Only a mechanic can put petrol in a car? Only a doctor can apply a band-aid to a small cut? I'm not allowed to catch a rat if I'm not a licensed pest controller? Can't set up a stereo system at home without being an audio engineer? This could get ridiculous. I'll need a qualified arborist to prune the roses soon.

  I couldn't agree more, don't be railroaded by the profiteers, their union and organisations in believing that DIY Plumbing is "Dangerous", obviously, don't mess with gas work, septic tanks etc. I had a property in Blacktown NSW, I had brown water (rust) every time I turned on the taps in the house, I replaced all the old steel pipes with copper, saved myself a bundle, and completed all the work in one week. 
In the USA, UK and I think also NZ there are approved plumbing courses for Owner Builders, Renovators etc. 
Stop the "closed shop" environment, profiteering and conflicting interest. If people in the UK, USA are allowed to do approved short plumbing courses, then so should we.

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## wonderplumb

> Stop the "closed shop" environment, profiteering and conflicting interest. If people in the UK, USA are allowed to do approved short plumbing courses, then so should we.

   :Hahaha:

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## plum

I noticed in a pr2jd2b previous post he used a kerosine blowtorch, I wonder if by chance that soft solder was used, the last soft solder join I've seen  was performed by a diyer. The joint failed in the roof space and managed to bring the whole ceiling down. But then again why would you need qualified plumbers when anybody could do the work and save a few bucks.

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## ringtail

I suspect this discussion could go for ever and be applied to just abut any trade plumbing or otherwise. I think it comes down to the fact that plumbing, for better or worse is a " licened " trade and therefore restricted. This is why it costs so much and this is why people resent paying. Personally I think the only trade that should be licenced is electrical, for the obvious reason and carpentry, plumbing, tiling etc... should go on a competancy based rerstricted type of licence for* owners wishing to do their own work* - like a OB permit but with plumbing included. Major works would have to be inspected, as they are now. Minor works like adding another tap or replacing existing piping should be self certified. All peoples wishing to do their own plumbing should have to do the basic welding course that plumbers do at tafe ( oxy and braze). My 2 cents.

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## plum

We are lucky in Australia that ringtail isn't a law maker........

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## ringtail

Aww come off it plum. Please dont pretend that anything that you do ( if you are a plumber) or anything that just about any other trade does is highly technical or remotely hard once the knowledge is attained. Stand back everyone, I'm working with water here

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## plum

Did you fail the aptitude test to become an apprentice plumber in your youth? So now you want to belittle plumbers and their trade. Mate new appliances are coming on the market every week, and you have know how to service, commision and explain to customers how to safely use them.

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## ringtail

If you read my post a little more carefully you will see that I have not belittled plumbers at all but merely pointed out that the jobs that all of us tradies do could be done by basically anyone with the right training. If you have a issue with that then you really do have tickets on yourself. Yes, you work with water, I work with timber, big deal. The powers that be let non tradespeople build houses, why cant they do their own plumbing as part of that proceedure ? Oh and to have a dig back, just been born automatically qualifies one to be a plumber  :Tongue:

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## plum

I disagree with  your points, so it's not much point arguing my points and you don't give a toss about my points, so therefore; have a nice day.....     :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

Well thats fair enough, no one said we have to agree but you havent made any points to argue or for me to " give a toss about ". I would like to know what these "new appliances coming on the market every week " are though. And why should a customer have to be trained to use them " safely " ?

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## goldie1

> I would like to know what these "new appliances coming on the market every week " are though. And why should a customer have to be trained to use them " safely " ?

  May be one of these

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## cam_jim

Many many years ago I when i was working in QLD I had a very restricted Electrical license. Had to do a 4 hour course or maybe a couple of 4 hour courses (can't remember now - too long ago). This license allowed me to change plugs and cords and a few other things. Not much else. I don't know if they still have these but maybe that would be the way to go for plumbing as well. eg restricted license that allowed a person to change taps, washers and a few of the other simple things.

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## plum

What you don't get ringtail is that, where we are plumbing includes gasfitting, but I don't think you want to hear that, you can't go saying I don't mean gasfitting because that's part and parcel of our trade. New appliances are coming on the market every week, pool heaters, hot water services, hotplates, upright stoves, space heating, ducted heaters, type 'A' appliances, type 'B' appliances. I've been to tech. nights at rinnai, Rheem and the bloody rest to keep up to date. As far as 'training customers to use appliances', well that is not what I said. maybe YOU should read a bit closer to what I said.

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## voogan

I don't begrudge people wanting to have a go at minor jobs themselves, however before you call plumbing rates "robbery", please consider the cost of running a business these days.Workers comp, insurances (vehicles, public liability,) licence costs,tools,training and i could go on for a while. While some people out there do the wrong thing both financially and in quality of workmanship, there are many others out there just trying to make an honest living.

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## ringtail

Settle, train / explain, same thing. I was just curious. Now the plot thickens. So you object to notion of people doing their own plumbing because a lot of plumbers have a gas ticket. Right I get it now. Gas fitting is just a convienient ticket for plumbers to have but you dont need to be a plumber to get a gas ticket nor do you need to be a gas fitter to become a plumber. I think you will find that just about everbody here has said a big no to DIY gas fitting so lets just stick to the plumbing side eh. Many a company has one guy with a gas ticket and the rest of the guys just use his number. Highly illegal but I guess you dont want to hear that.

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## plum

It's hard to teach the ignorant, as I said earlier, have a nice day    :Biggrin:

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## barney118

I am with you ringtail, however we should explore what you may call DIY, gas left for the experts, however modifying whats there is quite simple these days especially with plug together products like sharkbite even a novice could use. As for silver soldering being a fitter and covering this a tafe its not rocket science.

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## wonderplumb

At the end of the day I couldn't really care less what people do in their own homes or what they destroy, God forbid they injure or poison someone in the process. I still have plenty of work and make a comfortable living doing so.......... too many people seem to get sand in their vaginas about that, particularly investment property owners and university educated people, which I believe is the crux of most "anti-tradie" greivances. 
But, if I can offer advice, at the risk of sounding like the cliched "closed shop" B.S. and make someone think twice before doing something stupid, it's all good. :Smilie:  
Particularly stupid things like this beauty on a gas line........

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## ringtail

Agree, as I stated earlier, nothing that any traditional trade does is overly hard and with the *right training* just about anybody could do it. Soldering/ brazing /oxy was the first welding module I did nearly 20 years ago as a motor mechanic and its well within the grasp of a keen to learn joe average. 
Ahhhhh plum, its a common misconception but you seem to think you are surgeon in the building industry and no one else is capable of doing what you do. Pot, kettle.....

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## ringtail

Can that pic be enlarged mods ?

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## Bedford

> Can that pic be enlarged mods ?

  Dunno, I'll try.

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## wonderplumb

> Can that pic be enlarged mods ?

   It's with photobucket, I'll enlarge it but it's a bit grainy.

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## plum

Starts with 'w', rhymes with planker......

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## BRADFORD

I think that with almost all trades there is more to it than most people think.
If a short TAFE coarse is going to have the average DIYer able to do a tradesmans job why then do we have 3,4 or even 5 year apprenticeships for tradesmen.
Having said that, because I live in a remote area and tradespeople refuse to come here if it is not a major project, I do most of this type of work myself.

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## chrisp

> If a short TAFE coarse is going to have the average DIYer able to do a tradesmans job why then do we have 3,4 or even 5 year apprenticeships for tradesmen.

  Good question!  I wonder why too.  Most apprenticeships are mostly on the job labour and some formal classroom training.  I have little doubt that the training could be significantly compressed if the training structure was changed. 
Have a look at these links for training courses in the UK:  The Plumbing Academy - General Domestic Plumbing Course 10-12 weeks full time. 
and for electrical:  Plumbing Academy - General Domestic Electrical Installer - 19 days  Domestic Electrician Training Courses, Domestic Electrician Course, Domestic Installer Training, Electrical Training 4U - 15 days. 
The apprenticeship-only training path is incredibly, and unnecessarily, restrictive in my view.

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## SilentButDeadly

> I think that with almost all trades there is more to it than most people think.
> If a short TAFE coarse is going to have the average DIYer able to do a tradesmans job why then do we have 3,4 or even 5 year apprenticeships for tradesmen.

  Because (sadly) we in the general community don't value trades skills and experience these days like we should... 
Speaking as a home owner or a potential homeowner....there's an opportunity out there for clever people to leverage off the trade certificiation that comes with using qualified tradespeople.  If I come to market my house in the future I can demonstrate that all electrical and plumbing systems were installed by licensed trades as a result of the various certificates issued...it may not be worth anything extra financially but if it helps a quick sale.... 
...and if I was looking at a recently reno'ed property that couldn't provide these certificates....thanks but no thanks.  As a DIY hacker with delusions of expertise...I know how that could lead to tears down the track...

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## BRADFORD

> Good question! I wonder why too. Most apprenticeships are mostly on the job labour and some formal classroom training. I have little doubt that the training could be significantly compressed if the training structure was changed. 
> Have a look at these links for training courses in the UK:  The Plumbing Academy - General Domestic Plumbing Course 10-12 weeks full time. 
> and for electrical:  Plumbing Academy - General Domestic Electrical Installer - 19 days  Domestic Electrician Training Courses, Domestic Electrician Course, Domestic Installer Training, Electrical Training 4U - 15 days. 
> The apprenticeship-only training path is incredibly, and unnecessarily, restrictive in my view.

  I don't agree, my own apprenticeship involved approx 3000 hours technical training and 5 years on the job experience and training, there is no way that you can convince me that a 19 day or 10 to 12 week course(maybe 450 hours job experience and technical training) is going to give anyone the same experience, expertise or knowledge to carry out the work required of them. 
Many years ago in my trade they reduced apprenticeship training to about 1200 hours technical training and 4 years on the job experience, and as an employer to me it was very obvious the drop in quality of recently qualified tradesmen.
Some people seem to have the idea that they have done the training and got the certificate and now they know it all, well beleive me nothing could be further from the truth, I never cease to be amazed at the lack of knowledge of many "well trained" supposed trades people.
By the way I'm not a plumber.

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## shauck

First off, I personally have stuff all plumbing knowledge. What I do know is, there's a fair bit to know, just like anything else. I believe that if a competent DIYer can research ALL the necessary info before attempting any DIY work of any kind and has the physical skills required, then they should be able to do it.  
I have mostly stayed away from plumbing, except simple stuff but I am interested in understanding the whole process because sooner or later, I'm going to have to tackle the bathroom. I have a lot of things to consider with this room as the concrete slab has shifted and it's four sections are all over the shop, especially the two side by side, one of which the shower (fiberglass unit) sits on. Also I have one partially rotten bottom plate (damp soil), Also it's tacked on to the house (weatherboards still there), All the external cladding to be replaced and currently no internal lining so all old gal pipe work and copper exposed. I also have to consider the verandah is attached to one of the walls (extenda brackets) so creative ways to fix the slab with the walls in place.  
Anyway, even if I don't do any of the plumbing work myself, I still want to be able to know what's involved, so I can work out how to proceed sensibly and cost effectively.  
If ALL the plumbing knowledge is available and I can understand it and I feel inclined to tackle it, I would do it for sure, with either supervision/instruction or inspection of work done.  
At the very least, I need to know how to work it all into the rest of the issues.

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