# Forum Home Renovation General Odds & Sods  Discourteous tradespeople

## ephemera

I have been trying to find tradespeople to do various jobs at our house and I have to say Im finding it a frustrating and sometimes infuriating experience.   First I ring them then usually don't a get a return call for about 24 hours.  Then when I get a reply I tell them what needs doing and they either say ok give me your details and Ill call you back to make a time then they don't call back,  or they make a time and don't show up, or they show up tell me they will send a quote via email but then they don't send it.    Its really weird behaviour but speaking to friends of mine they have all had the same experience and so this seems to be normal behaviour for tradespeople!!    Whats the go?   What exactly is wrong with being upfront and honest?  Why do tradespeople stuff people around this way?  Im sure its not all but so far its about 80%. Its kind of a f#@k you attitude, very strange.

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## Master Splinter

It's nothing new - that's one of the reasons I started on the DIY road many years ago.....just wait till you get the quote that would keep the greek national debt happy for a few days just to replace a lightswitch!

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## shauck

Not that I'm sticking up for the behaviour you mention but, unlike sales people for example, who's "profession" is selling a product, tradies are (busy ones) flat out making, fixing, doing, running about, etc. The job they are on at the moment, is taking all their time to get it finished so they can try to start the next job on time (unlikely as it is). Not an excuse. Perhaps this is something that needs to be taught (as important) at the apprenticeship/learning stage.

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## johnc

I don't think trades people stuff people around, certainly no more than they in turned are stuffed around by customers. You are dealing with a  group for which a percentage just found themselves self employed and for whom people skills are not part of the training. Set reasonable expectations and demands and you will usually get a reasonable response. Once you have found someone that suits you stick with them, when setting out you know no one to begin with and they will naturally gravitate towards customers they have built relationships with, strangers on the phone could be tire kickers or those annoying you for a quote they will never follow through from.   
It's just human nature, learn to adjust your approach and you should find its about 20% you have trouble with not the other way around.

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## ephemera

> I don't think trades people stuff people around, certainly no more than they in turned are stuffed around by customers. You are dealing with a  group for which a percentage just found themselves self employed and for whom people skills are not part of the training. Set reasonable expectations and demands and you will usually get a reasonable response. Once you have found someone that suits you stick with them, when setting out you know no one to begin with and they will naturally gravitate towards customers they have built relationships with, strangers on the phone could be tire kickers or those annoying you for a quote they will never follow through from.   
> It's just human nature, learn to adjust your approach and you should find its about 20% you have trouble with not the other way around.

  I agree there are most likely customers that are tire kickers but how are people who have never used trades people before supposed to get one if they don't call?  You're are making excuses for bad behaviour.   I don't think it is too demanding or unreasonable to expect a tradesperson  to a) show up when they say they are going to    b) if they cannot then call and let the customer know  c) email the quote/estimate in a reasonable amount of time without the customer having to ring back and ask where is it. 
Uncaring, rude, unreliable and basically flaky behaviour might be human nature for you but speak for yourself not for others.     Why not strive to be an exceptional honest tradesperson instead of taking the easy route and fitting in to the plethora of very average unreliable tradespeople with crappy attitudes.

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## denaria

I see you're in the city so there'd be many tradies around, fortunately, since you'd get to sift through your choices based also on attitude (when you do get choices!) In remote areas tradies are few and far between so we learn to DIY and I have to say my best efforts seem to approximate the worst of a craftsman, but at least I'm living with my own mistakes not others, I've taught myself a lot and I'm real cheap. Keep contacting them, good luck.

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## johnc

> I agree there are most likely customers that are tire kickers but how are people who have never used trades people before supposed to get one if they don't call? You're are making excuses for bad behaviour. I don't think it is too demanding or unreasonable to expect a tradesperson to a) show up when they say they are going to b) if they cannot then call and let the customer know c) email the quote/estimate in a reasonable amount of time without the customer having to ring back and ask where is it. 
> Uncaring, rude, unreliable and basically flaky behaviour might be human nature for you but speak for yourself not for others. Why not strive to be an exceptional honest tradesperson instead of taking the easy route and fitting in to the plethora of very average unreliable tradespeople with crappy attitudes.

  If that is your standard response then it is hardly surprising you are having trouble with those you deal with. Lighten up, it doesn't hurt to be pleasant.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Why not strive to be an exceptional honest tradesperson instead of taking the easy route and fitting in to the plethora of very average unreliable tradespeople with crappy attitudes.

  I think you'll find that most tradies strive to be exceptional & honest.  However, they are often too busy doing work for regular, established clients to be able spend too much time, effort or expense meeting the expectations of potential new ones.   
A good example is my sparky who has that much work he is only able to spend one day a fortnight working on quotes...and may not be able to get to you for some days to check the job out first.  Whilst that does test your patience, it is something one has to work with.  Bloody good sparky too. 
Hiring a tradie is not like buying a fridge or a car.  Don't expect the customer service experience to be the same either...

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## Lizzyodowd

i usually mention straight up, that i would prefer to know if they're interested or not!. so i tell them if they're not (interested) we'll just leave it at that. most of the tradesmen i've dealt with seem to appreciate that, except for wall and floor tilers of course, they're in a world of their own, twice i've tried it with tiler acquaintances who said, no worries, i'll give you a quote but never turn up....!  :Biggrin:

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## denaria

Perhaps certain trade professions earn enough to hire office staff or an assistant to do the quotes? What is the average earnings of such?

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## Black Cat

No that does not work either. I have had one experience where the poor staff in the office are just the punching bags because their trady won't communicate with them either. 
If someone makes a commitment to do something at a certain time/place/rate whatever, it should not be considered unreasonable to anticipate that they will do it. If they are unable to do it as agreed, then it should not be unreasonable to expect them to let you know (preferably in advance). No-one is so flat out they are unable to pick up a phone and send a text. 
I have had far too many experiences of people agreeing to be there in an hour but not turning up, and then becoming shirty when I (quite mildly) contact them to find out what happened. 
I certainly agree that many tradies have found themselves self-employed by no choice of their own. But surely they can recognise the standards they themselves demand of others, and offer those standards to their clients? 
I swear that any trady who does offer good, reliable, service, will soon be building up a team of people to do the work for him he will have so many customers. 
Think about it next time you are tempted to keep a potential client in cold storage, or figure - no time to make that call, not gonna say no incase something falls through, whatever. That does not just lose you that client, it loses you every potential client that asks that person who to recommend. I have no problems badmouthing tradies who have shafted me over my job.

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## denaria

I was being polite lol

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## Black Cat

Why? If someone is not polite they are no longer entitled to demand courtesy, lol. As you say denaria, living in the country does make for acquiring some unexpected skills, but it's always better to be able to rely on someone reliable, and if that is yourself, then go for it.

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## Gaza

hey as a tradie the same crap happens to us,  
just this week i was trying to get one of the three concretors to price up a varry for a job we are currenlty working one, first one has gone overseas till mid dec, 2nd guy was going to come thursday, no show, no call, not answering phone ended up getting his mate to call up on friday and still they didnt show on saturday or monday but reckon they are coming thuesday, third guy said he was coming saturday rang a few times during day ended up not being able to make it and came past today. 
mind you this is a full on commerical building company that had ten jobs on & always pay on time. 
now our job has come to stop & have send our guys over to another job for a week till we get the price back from the concretor then submit to cilnet get it approved & then have work done. 
i also at times are crap with doing quotes you just get out of flow & then it bites you in the butt when you have no work. This year i looked at job for a friend of friend ended up taking me a few months to do the quote only after being chased after doing that one small job we have picked up a couple of big jobs from the same people. 
i know a sparky who has around ten guys he goes around in the morning doing quotes then has office send them out that same day, he reckons that if you dont put the quotes back within 2 days you will just miss out.

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## ringtail

Its definitley not a one way street guys. I always turn up 10 minutes early, I always have a quote emailed back within 3 days and on many occasions the customer wont even acknowledge that they have received the quote, which is doubly annoying because on every email I ask them to reply to confirm they have received the attachment. Honestly, some people think you have nothing better to do than quote all day so they can have 10 quotes to scrutinise. Quoting a large or complicated job takes a long time, easily 8 hours of unpaid work. Bring on quoting charges I reckon, that will sort the wheat from the chaff. I know a few builders that will no longer quote large jobs. They engage a quantity surveyor at the potential clients expense. The genuine clients have no problem as the job is priced properly and the tire kickers go elsewhere. Sounds fair to me.

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## Black Cat

Fair enough, you cop it too. But no point passing on the bad experiences. Pass on the good ones.  
As for the concreters, I get them to order the concrete (and check the order is in with the supplier) so they are liable if they are not there to spread the stuff. If they are not there the delivery is refused. 
I think that generally speaking, the world is becoming more and more self-obsessed, and considering they way our behaviour impacts on others is a thing of the past. Don't introduce more regulation (lord knows we have enough of that) bring back good manners and appropriate behaviour.

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## shauck

Aside from being reasonably good at your job, if you can communicate well, be on time, manage your schedule well, be tidy, honest and look out for your customers interests, you will likely have a full book. I am not a fully qualified anything. Partly chippy but do other things as well. My present customers keep giving me more and more work (they have 14 houses in my town) I could likely retire on their work alone if I keep up with the above list. The first job I did for them was unskilled and awful, ripping up stinky (putrid) carpets and I was there within a day to do it as I had nothing much on at the time. Now I have a years work ahead of me, between them and a couple of others. Now I'm having to say to other smaller jobs, "Maybe in 6 months, just have to see if I can fit it in between other jobs" They often have to wait and see as there is no-one about interested. I feel bad for them but my present customers will get my time before them, even if they add to the list ahead of the small job. It's all hard to call, hard to keep track of. Any way, it gets away from you sometimes so have a bit of understanding for the tradie who is trying to manouver through it all and keep his/her head above water and pay the mortgage. Sorry. big rant.

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## ringtail

I'm moving to Daylesford

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## chrisp

> I'm moving to Daylesford

  You can pack light too as you may not need too many clothes around Daylesford.   :Biggrin:

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## Black Cat

Me too. Willing to wait for competent, reliable workers. No worries at all.

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## ringtail

> You can pack light too as you may not need too many clothes around Daylesford.

  What is shauck not telling us. Brings new meaning to "tool belt" if I'm reading between the lines properly

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## shauck

Bring your clothes. It's colder here than Melbourne. Just stay away from my jobs  :Biggrin:  
"What is shauck not telling us. Brings new meaning to "tool belt" if I'm reading between the lines properly"        Huh??

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## shauck

I was talking to a local the other day who asked me if I could paint his house as he's noticed me working on the job I'm presently doing and likes what he sees. He told me a bit of a horror story about the two guys who did his place a couple of years ago and it needs re-doing and finishing properly. He said that he should have known better when the guys cracked a beer at ten in the morning while sizing up the job. He commented on the early start and they replied, "it's going to be a hot day all right" I think he should have trusted his intuition.

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## Oldsaltoz

> I don't think trades people stuff people around, certainly no more than they in turned are stuffed around by customers. You are dealing with a  group for which a percentage just found themselves self employed and for whom people skills are not part of the training. Set reasonable expectations and demands and you will usually get a reasonable response. Once you have found someone that suits you stick with them, when setting out you know no one to begin with and they will naturally gravitate towards customers they have built relationships with, strangers on the phone could be tire kickers or those annoying you for a quote they will never follow through from.   
> It's just human nature, learn to adjust your approach and you should find its about 20% you have trouble with not the other way around.

  +1

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## ringtail

> Bring your clothes. It's colder here than Melbourne. Just stay away from my jobs  
> "What is shauck not telling us. Brings new meaning to "tool belt" if I'm reading between the lines properly"        Huh??

  Hmmm, maybe I'm way off base but I thought chrisp was hinting at the daylesford area been a bit hippy/nudist ???

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## chrisp

> Hmmm, maybe I'm way off base but I thought chrisp was hinting at the daylesford area been a bit hippy/nudist ???

  I suspect that 'alternative lifestyle' is the correct terminology.  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Good to know I can still read between the lines - had me worried for a bit there. Nude carpentry ---> tool belt----> belting tool-----> ouch. Subtle aren't I.

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## Ken-67

There is no justifiable excuse for this type of atitude, whether they are busy or not. Its a matter of rude, bad manners and poor time management skills. In the 30 years I was self employed, I always answered a call; if I was unable to do the job, or there was a long wait for the work to start, I would tell them straight up; if I made an appointment I would always turn up on time, or contact them if there was a delay; I always sent out a quote; if the quote was accepted, I would give an honest and realistic start date, then arrive on or before that date, and stay until the job was finished. To me that was all sensible business practice, and stood be in good stead for all those years.

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## strangerep

> It's nothing new - that's one of the reasons I started on the DIY road many years ago....

  Me too. I gradually realized it was quicker (and more cost-effective) to learn how to do stuff, and to buy trade-quality tools whenever needed. 
Now, whenever I need help, I ask tradespeople if they're willing to work _with_ me on an hourly rate basis. No job quote nor guarantee necessary. They only have to state their hourly rate. 
 Curiously, I get the impression that some tradies aren't interested in doing that. I'm wondering if it's because they know it'll be hard to deceive me...

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## ibuildbenches

> I have been trying to find tradespeople to do various jobs at our house and I have to say Im finding it a frustrating and sometimes infuriating experience.   First I ring them then usually don't a get a return call for about 24 hours.  Then when I get a reply I tell them what needs doing and they either say ok give me your details and Ill call you back to make a time then they don't call back,  or they make a time and don't show up, or they show up tell me they will send a quote via email but then they don't send it.    Its really weird behaviour but speaking to friends of mine they have all had the same experience and so this seems to be normal behaviour for tradespeople!!    Whats the go?   What exactly is wrong with being upfront and honest?  Why do tradespeople stuff people around this way?  Im sure its not all but so far its about 80%. Its kind of a f#@k you attitude, very strange.

  What exactly needs doing at your house? If you want minor work like a door planed, a cabinet shelf fixed and a peice of skirting replaced you will only get a tradie turn up and do it when he is quiet, so to speak. If you have a $15,000 deck out the back Id say you wouldnt have a prob finding a few willing to take it on.
This time of year everyone is rushing to get odds and ends tied up before xmas that there is always plenty of work around. Obviously the tradie will pick and choose what jobs he can make good money on and scrap the rest. Sounds harsh but you only have a limited amount of time to ring people, quote jobs, organise the day and actually do the work. 
If a tradie rocked up to do work and he spent an hour on the phone because he was getting back to clients, you would prob complain about that too lol. What time are we meant to go to bed after working all day in the sun? :P

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## ephemera

> Honestly, some people think you have nothing better to do than quote all day so they can have 10 quotes to scrutinise. Quoting a large or complicated job takes a long time, easily 8 hours of unpaid work. Bring on quoting charges I reckon, that will sort the wheat from the chaff. I know a few builders that will no longer quote large jobs.

  Most people just get 3 quotes and pick either the middle one or the one that comes across most professionally.    Nobody could be bothered getting 10 quotes , that is an exaggeration,  its way too difficult and frustrating to even get three. Takes days if not weeks to get anyone to even call back or show up so not interested in trying that with ten. 
Quoting charges already apply but they are just hidden i.e. - built into the overall price. If you're not doing that then you're a mug especially for a large job that takes a long time to price.

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## ephemera

> What exactly needs doing at your house? If you want minor work like a door planed, a cabinet shelf fixed and a peice of skirting replaced you will only get a tradie turn up and do it when he is quiet, so to speak. If you have a $15,000 deck out the back Id say you wouldnt have a prob finding a few willing to take it on.
> This time of year everyone is rushing to get odds and ends tied up before xmas that there is always plenty of work around. Obviously the tradie will pick and choose what jobs he can make good money on and scrap the rest. Sounds harsh but you only have a limited amount of time to ring people, quote jobs, organise the day and actually do the work. 
> If a tradie rocked up to do work and he spent an hour on the phone because he was getting back to clients, you would prob complain about that too lol. What time are we meant to go to bed after working all day in the sun? :P

  Poor excuses for unacceptable behaviour.   If you say you're going to be somewhere just be there or have the decency to call and let the person who is waiting know that you can't make it, it takes 30 seconds.   Do unto others.

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## ibuildbenches

> Poor excuses for unacceptable behaviour.   If you say you're going to be somewhere just be there or have the decency to call and let the person who is waiting know that you can't make it, it takes 30 seconds.   Do unto others.

  What jobs need doing at your house?

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## ringtail

> Most people just get 3 quotes and pick either the middle one or the one that comes across most professionally.    Nobody could be bothered getting 10 quotes , that is an exaggeration,  its way too difficult and frustrating to even get three. Takes days if not weeks to get anyone to even call back or show up so not interested in trying that with ten. 
> Quoting charges already apply but they are just hidden i.e. - built into the overall price. If you're not doing that then you're a mug especially for a large job that takes a long time to price.

  
Mmm no, you misunderstand me. Quoting charge is where you pay me for my time to quote - up front, whether you accept the job or not. Master builders has been pushing for it for a long time. There is always a PITA factor built into all jobs. If the PITA is the client, site or job makes no difference - its called margin. And yes, some people do get 10 quotes. Its happening a lot up here at the moment with flood repairs.

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## Gaza

> Mmm no, you misunderstand me. Quoting charge is where you pay me for my time to quote - up front, whether you accept the job or not. Master builders has been pushing for it for a long time. There is always a PITA factor built into all jobs. If the PITA is the client, site or job makes no difference - its called margin. And yes, some people do get 10 quotes. Its happening a lot up here at the moment with flood repairs.

  how about this we do commerical work i went to a tender inspection for a council job there was 10+ builders there looking at it, went to a job for a fitout for uni, all tenders were selected there was seven guys there, 
we also do work at a differnt uni we are 1 of 4 pricing there work. 
its not just H/O getting heaps of prices,  
in residental idea of quote fee is a great idea it stops the tyre kickers anyone who is keen will pay the $. the way to sell the fee is its a consulation they are having not you going around for a measure up, there is a heap of threads about this on american trade forums,

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## ringtail

Ahhh, consultation fee. That sounds nice. I'm suprised more res work isnt put out for tender instead of the call and quote system.

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## Gaza

> Ahhh, consultation fee. That sounds nice. I'm suprised more res work isnt put out for tender instead of the call and quote system.

  i know that full reno's are tender to builders via arch's but its opposite then arch's have trouble getting builders to quote in a few month time frame from getting doc's & a fair price not just a random number from the sky.

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## ringtail

Either way, its a bitch of a process but it comes with the job.

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## autogenous

My initial consultation fee is $150 taken off the price of the job if they proceed.   
You can do a 100000 kilometers a year and watch the wheels fall off your car if you went out every time non-realitybackyardrenovation went on air.   
Customers are worse than tradesmen as tradesmen dont drive across the city to have a laugh at the customers expense.   
Anyrate, they are not customers if they have rang you to tyre kick.  If they have 10 quotes then they are only interested in price not quality.   
People do take the proverbial piss out of tradesmen.  If the tradies aren't convinced, they wont turn up.   
A one day job is a two day job because they had to quote you, do a bill of quantities then organise the materials and come back and do the job. Thats if they win it.   
You have someone who wants a quote for a job that will take a month.  Someone who has a job that will take 6 hours. 
Which job would you pick, a quote for 6 hours or 1 quote for 4 weeks.  No one wants a half days pay. 
You can see why they don't like small jobs.  Plumbers and electricians usually charge by the hour so they turn up for small jobs. 
Theres always the other side of the coin.  It is what it is. 
Some building companies charge you thousands if you do not proceed.  Sign here, here and here.

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## autogenous

_Poor excuses for unacceptable behaviour.   If you say you're going to be  somewhere just be there or have the decency to call and let the person  who is waiting know that you can't make it, it takes 30 seconds.   Do  unto others._ 
At 10 posts Ephimera and the above response your starting to look like a troll. 
Its not 30 seconds and its $400 dollars extra on the mobile phone bill.   
If tradies are flagging you then you maybe getting flagged as a time waster.   
Even certain demographics are being flagged.  It can be suburb, culture, occupation.   
Some tradies say I'm not spending $5 ringing someone who hasn't given me the job to explain I can't make it.  Fixing a toilet is not a constant in time, its very dynamic depending on what happened.

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## chalkyt

My two bobs worth is... back in the olden days I was told to remember "when you are working, you aren't selling and when you are selling you aren't working". Even if everyone chases three quotes, on average only one out of the three who quote will get the job and the others will have spent their time for nothing, so the tradie has to "box clever" and only chase the jobs worth getting or doing. Not nice, but it is the way of the world. As others have said, if you find a good tradie then stick with him and don't get too hung up on price. Most tradies are trained at doing the job, not at selling or paperwork so tailor your approach to them on that basis.

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## shauck

Daylesford has no (none that I see about) nudists. Daylesford is the gay country capital of Australia. So if you're a guy, it'd be wear a pink tool belt but more likely it's the women wearing the toolbelts and the guys wearing the apron. (Just joking) Plenty of straight men building here too. 
Edit. Geez, there's been a lot of posts since you mentioned this place. I'll stop going on about it now and back to the topic. 
I reckon that if the quote became a paid event, people would end up going with the first guy/girl that came along. Wonder how that would pan out.  
It's true that no one wants to take a sh***y little job when there is decent work out there but sometimes the little job turns into a big job.  
My ideal would be to accept a little job occasionally out of conscience. Only because there are little old nanna's and totally unskilled individuals out there who need a bit of help and have no-one else to rely on.

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## ringtail

I know a few guys who make good money just doing small jobs. They have a set guideline for charging and stick to it. Up to 12 o'clock is a half day $ 250 + gst, anything past 12, even if its only 1 hour, is a full day $ 450 + gst. If they start a job after 12 its a half day charge, if they have to come back in the morning, even if its for 1 hour, the half day turns into a full day charge.

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## PeteV

the problem i find, is that most "potential" customers only call you around to quote because they only want to pick your brain on how to do the job DIY. the way i get around it is to have them send drawings over. 9 times outta 10, i don't get any drawings so i don't bother quoting. also, the reason tradies don't like having DIYers help them, is because often it slows them down, or gives them extra work in fixing stuff up. there is nothing worse than doing a job twice!!! either that, or your justifying every little move you make. with regards to autogenous' margin for latent conditions... i hear ya! coppers and teachers get an automatic 10% extra cause you know you're gonna have hassles! 
rant aside, i am a firm believer that if you say you are going to do something, make sure you do it. it would be great if customers could do the same!

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## strangerep

> [...] the reason tradies don't like having DIYers help them, is because often it slows them down, or gives them extra work in fixing stuff up. there is nothing worse than doing a job twice!!! either that, or your justifying every little move you make.

  If the DIY'er is paying the tradie by the hour, then what does that matter? It's essentially a consultation task interleaved with the main job.   

> rant aside, i am a firm believer that if you say you are going to do something, make sure you do it. it would be great if customers could do the same!

  Agreed, though I've noticed that people who do exhibit such integrity are at a disadvantage when dealing with those who don't.

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## PeteV

it matters because we are tradies, not consultants, and as previously mentioned, there is nothing worse than doing a job twice... paid or not paid! ask any tradie how hard it is to deal with a new apprentice, it's not easy... i find that most tradies are like myself, as in they don't like to be pinned down for too long and like to move through jobs quickly. that doesn't mean doing a bad job either. it means to use the systems that you have trained yourself and your staff to get the job done right, and get it done quickly. this is what makes a business profitable, and also keeps the multitude of customers happy.
speaking from experience in the bricklaying trade, i prefer the customer to stay right away. quite often i get offers to mix mud or move bricks. as simple as this may sound, it isn't. one bad batch of mud can slow things down to a crawl, similarly, bricks in the wrong spot, or stacked the wrong way can slow everything down. by no means am i suggesting that i don't appreciate the offer, but realistically, i don't need the help. that's what your paying me to do!
i hope this clarifies the mind set of a tradie!

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## cam_jim

> Quoting charge is where you pay me for my time to quote - up front, whether you accept the job or not. ....And yes, some people do get 10 quotes. Its happening a lot up here at the moment with flood repairs.

  The only problem with that is some unscrupulous people could make a living just quoting. Say I charge charge $100.00 for a quote - whether you accept the job or not.  I'm asked to quote to change a light bulb so I quote $2,000.00 knowing the person will not accept that but I still make $100.00.  
Everybody says get at least 3 quotes but it is almost impossible to do that. I believe this is why there is so much DIY going on. Especially for little jobs that SHOULD be done by a qualified tradesman eg. electrical work. 
I can see the problem from both sides and I don't have an answer.

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## ringtail

I totally agree. There are opportunistic scum in every industry who will always be there but what can you do ?

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## Godzilla73

> i hear ya! coppers and teachers get an automatic 10% extra cause you know you're gonna have hassles!

  Went to a "Builders Info Nite" a few years ago now and it was laid out a lot clearer than that i can tell you. The list was longer too...

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## strangerep

> i hope this clarifies the mind set of a tradie!

  It clarifies _your_ mindset, yes. Especially the unnecessary exclamation marks. 
BTW, not every DIY'er is at the level of a "new apprentice", and I'd certainly never try to "help" in an area where I have no experience.

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## PeteV

unnecessary exclamation marks? i only counted 3, get over it. you are correct that not every DIYer is at apprentice level, but from my experiences, most are. i stand by my convictions, and have only ever advertised by word of mouth, yet my phone keeps ringing! every one has options, if people don't like the way i run my business, then by all means, call someone else! hope this helps!!!!!!

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## autogenous

_The only problem with that is some unscrupulous people could make a  living just quoting. Say I charge charge $100.00 for a quote - whether  you accept the job or not.  I'm asked to quote to change a light bulb so  I quote $2,000.00 knowing the person will not accept that but I still  make $100.00._ 
The difference is the business model for a light globe.  You want a light globe changed then you pay a call out fee then an hourly rate after that.  Its all on the table. 
The reverse can be said, would you prefer I charge a call out fee and an hourly rate there after to say build your house?  
After I did risk analysis and expenses over gross revenue/hours I nearly fell over.  What to risk losing my house? 
Stepping out of the building industry was the best thing I ever did.   
I only had trouble with one client paying who said for some reason I earnt more than her husband, aw age earning doctor.  She had wages mentality with little concept of business and expenses. 
Some clients think they are smart by deliberately not paying for the fun of it.   What clients don't realise is they were probably not the first.  Ive never had a problem but tradies do sell off to a debt collector. 
Tradies are business people who must understand, OHS, tax, building law, accountancy, business policy and procedure and all the other @@@@@@@@ in between.  They have mouths to feed. 
Next time youve watched backyardrenovationhotreality and had a couple of wines dont call some one over to squeeze some info out of them.  Some random fellows have no money, no assets and nothing to lose.  They go to prison just to rid their speeding fines and parking tickets.  One my old labourers had teeth marks in his ear where half of it had been bitten off.  
They don't look like Jamie Durie  :Biggrin:  
Still want to complain why tradies don't turn up some of the time?  There is two sides of the coin.

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## wonderplumb

I love these threads. 
I will add that I get dicked around by the general public more than I do the same to them.

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## goldie1

Strikes me that if being a tradie is such a wonderfull well paid job lots more people would become one and then no one  
would have problems getting jobs done

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## PeteV

being a tradie is a great job! i would recommend it to anyone!

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## ringtail

Been a tradie can be a good job. It can also be the worst job. Been self employed aint no cuppa tea. No super, no holiday or sick pay, no compo, bulk red tape, bulk paperwork, time wasters and tire kickers etc.....and thats before getting on a job and trying to make a profit out of it. Working out in sun sucks, working in the cold sucks, working in the rain sucks, working in roofs sucks. But somedays you have a blinder and things just click. The trick is to not over commit yourself with work or debt and just do the job with a positive attitude. For every bad day there are 10 good days but its hard pushing through the crappy days sometimes. There are no free rides when self employed, you make of it what you can.

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## cam_jim

> _The only problem with that is some unscrupulous people could make a  living just quoting. Say I charge charge $100.00 for a quote - whether  you accept the job or not.  I'm asked to quote to change a light bulb so  I quote $2,000.00 knowing the person will not accept that but I still  make $100.00._ 
> The difference is the business model for a light globe.  You want a light globe changed then you pay a call out fee then an hourly rate after that.  Its all on the table. 
> The reverse can be said, would you prefer I charge a call out fee and an hourly rate there after to say build your house?

  It was just an extreme example to try and illustrate what could/might happen. 
How about  - quote to get 2 power points installed. I can't say yes to call out fee plus hourly rate as I only have $1000 to spend. I'm pretty sure my $1000 will cover it but I still need to get a quote to see if I can afford it in the first place. I don't know how long it is going to take as I'm not an electrician. Electrician can't quote over the phone because he doesn't know what is involved. Mr "_unscrupulous"_ comes out and quotes a ridiculous $10,000. Even I know that that is rubbish but now I only have $900 to spend and I'm still none the wiser. I will have to get another couple of quotes which will eventually leave me with just $700 to spend.    

> Still want to complain why tradies don't turn up some of the time?  There is two sides of the coin.

  Like I said "_I can see the problem from both sides and I don't have an answer.        _ "    :Whatonearth:

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## denaria

The answer is to have five kids, a lawyer, a doctor, a dentist, a plumber and an electrician.

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## Danny

A lawyer??? 
Oh well; I guess even the best of families have at least one black sheep.

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## Gaza

i am about to start to study law next year, so ill be a builder / project manager & lawer in the end

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## denaria

Sure, a lawyer, to defend siblings from suits   :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Geez, Ive got 4 black sheep then

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## denaria

lol laffin here, we're sooo off topic I'm ashamed!

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## ringtail

> i am about to start to study law next year, so ill be a builder / project manager & lawer in the end

  That cant end well Gaza. You'll end up suing yourself

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## shauck

I would think that the answer to the deliberate overquote is to first ask for a ball park figure before commiting to an onsite quote. Most will be able to do a roughie as long as it's understood that something unforseen may affect that quote. Especially if it's something they do all the time. You ring about and get your 3 or so rough estimates over the phone and then you have an idea of ballpark figure. Then you get whoever out to quote properly. Now if an unscrupulous tradie then tries to up the quote a ridiculous amount, way over any of the other estimates or final quotes, you can tell him to stuff his call out fee. The thing is you have to respect it when someone doesn't want to do a rough estimate over the phone. I think this is reasonable.

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## goldie1

We need a certain amount of shonky tradies otherwise people would have nothing to talk about at dinner parties

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## ibuildbenches

> i am about to start to study law next year, so ill be a builder / project manager & lawer in the end

  So basically an architect then?

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## Dex

Well have just had an interesting Read of all the above replies....and if ou have made it down to my comments so have you !!
As a customer and not a tradie but who has half renovated his house (and has the other half to go) i have a few ways to look at things. 
Service - I have been lucky and most of the people i have contacted have turned up. those that havnt / didnt call back / didnt send quote......didnt get my business 
Quotes - have had approx. 30-40 different quotes on all the projects on my house......by shopping around have saved probably 10-20k on completed projects. but still not about to pay someone $100 to come and quote when i have no idea his quote is going to be up to double someone elses (no matter how good he tells me he is)  And the bad attitude and lack of follow through (by some i might add) just means you need to get all the more quotes which in turn hurts the others in trade and give the tradie a bad name. 
Service and Quotes - just a reminder to Tradies reading this ...you are the one providing the service.  just the same as i can walk into a shop and get a price (and yes ask an assistant who has to spend time to serve me and is getting paid to do that by the owner) and then walk to 10 others shops and do the same.  i will still only buy from 1 shop yet every retailer has to have staff there to serve me wheter i buy or not.  Fair enough  you have to drive to do quotes but hey you are in the game and have to play it by the rules.....if you want to get the jobs...provide a good service, give a good price and you will get it....over price and under serve your customers and you wont.  For the consumer get your quotes way up the price vs your gut feeling about the supplier and get the job done and dont feel bad. 
i am an average working person and want my house to look nice but i cant just pay any old price to do it or it wont get done.  So while some tradies may be doing it tough and have to pick and choose the better jobs chances are the person paying them has their own time constraints and money problems they need to organise.  So nothing wrong with DYI with a bit of tradie help where needed but just remember if a tradie has no time for you just let them go do whatever it is they want and keep shopping around

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## ringtail

And how much would that retailer charge you if you rang him up and asked him to drive to your house and give you a price on whatever, then drive back to the store, put it down in a email and send it to you ? That analogy simply doesn't work. Tradies like to think they have half a chance of actually getting the job and not competing with 20 other blokes for the same job. Its fine from your perspective because it only costs you a phone call. Word of mouth is still the best way to find trades. Get some recommendations from friends instead of going for google.

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## strangerep

> So nothing wrong with DYI [....]

  Can't resist... "DYI" = Do Yourself an Injury.

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## shauck

Imagine if at your local shopping centre, there were tradies outlets with 16 year old kids wandering about in their shops, chewing gum, selling their service. You walk in and ask the kid, so... I want an extension on my house. How much will that cost? Watch for the glazed over look on the kids face.  
Besides all that, how do you know if the cheaper quote means that tradie will do an equal but cheaper job than the other guy? Unless you know what you're talking about and can ask detailed questions about how they intend to do the job, you'll not really be able to compare the two.  
This is why word of mouth works. Trust others' experiences.

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## goldie1

> Imagine if at your local shopping centre, there were tradies outlets with 16 year old kids wandering about in their shops, chewing gum, selling their service. You walk in and ask the kid, so... I want an extension on my house. How much will that cost? Watch for the glazed over look on the kids face.  
> Besides all that, how do you know if the cheaper quote means that tradie will do an equal but cheaper job than the other guy? Unless you know what you're talking about and can ask detailed questions about how they intend to do the job, you'll not really be able to compare the two.  
> This is why word of mouth works. Trust others' experiences.

  x 2 on that

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## lazydays

Try making a living as a fencing contractor. Both neighbours get 3 quotes, even if you are the last pick and are 30k's away just to satisfy your neighbour and give them a quote to show they have done the right thing by each other. Try telling them if you hit rock it's extra..you''l never get away with that one if some holes take 15 min to dig and others can take an hour. I've even presented an invoice to be only offered half and "go next door to get the rest"....rant finished....
p.s. who pays me when it rains for a week

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## ringtail

Exactly why I wont do fencing. Ive put two quotes in for a good customer ( after telling her I cant compete on price) and must have been way off base with each of them. I dont know how you guys make a living. The fencing market is so cut throat and people want cheap nasty crap as far as I can see.

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## lazydays

It was to feed a young and hungry family at the time.......ahhh what we do in desperate times. Got a bit smarter towards the end and tried to screen the call to quote. Some afternoons I'd come home absolutely knakered and then drive around doing 2 to 3 quotes. Also stopped quoting per/metre and just went on materials and number of FULL days to complete the job. Somehow those fidly little gate jobs that only took a few hours could never be multiplied to getting 2 done a day. By the time you packed all your gear up, stocked up on material and drove to the next job you could never get two half days finished in one day. Old pensioners always got good prices because they kept you stocked up on cold water and tea/coffee for smoko with maybe even a few scones thrown in.
Thankfully I now work indoors/air-conditioned/proper breaks/holiday pay/super, gee they even have a toilet instead of pissing behind the ute.

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## shauck

That's another thing people don't always understand. The hourly rate or day rate or whatever way you charge, has to incorporate tax, superannuation, insurance, rainy days, holidays, tools, travel time, vehicle upkeep, accounting, blah blah blah, on and on. Then, as lazydays says, you hit a slow point in the job and it seems like not much gets done and the customer doesn't get it. Finding good customers is gold, just like customers finding good tradies. Hang on to each other.

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## strangerep

> Try making a living as a fencing contractor. Both neighbours get 3 quotes, even if you are the last pick and are 30k's away just to satisfy your neighbour and give them a quote to show they have done the right thing by each other. Try telling them if you hit rock it's extra..you''l never get away with that one if some holes take 15 min to dig and others can take an hour.

  Even though I'm not a tradie or fencer, I just want to say I'm extremely sympathetic to this point of view. 
 Long ago I got a short fence done -- the price was (I thought) over the top and the quality was just sad -- the gal posts wobble quite severely. So more recently when I wanted a longer fence replaced I was lucky enough to find a guy who understood that I wanted a high quality fence and would pay for such. I did a lot of the running around organizing materials, carrying it all up from the road to the backyard, etc. We used H4 CCA TP posts this time, but several holes had to be jackhammered out of the rock -- geez that's a harder job than it looks, especially if you want it deep. The fence itself was half-lattice, and on a slope. The waste-of-space next door of course had no idea how much more time it takes to do lattice compared to simple paling, or even lap-n-cap. And doing lattice on a slope is a further step up in difficulty. She was the one who wanted lattice (that only "needed to stand up for a few years"). I wanted something that would be good for many decades. Of course she objected to the eventual price because it was so much more than "other quotes she'd had for lap-n-cap". So I ended up paying the lion's share of the cost myself because I just wanted to have nothing more to do with her and at least I'd had the edifying experience of participating in the construction of a really good fence.   

> I've even presented an invoice to be only offered half and "go next door to get the rest"

  The larger fencing mobs (those that actually make you sign an acceptance document before starting work) always have a clause saying that the client mentioned in the quote is responsible for the entire payment if the quote is accepted. I.e., they're the one who must extract payment from the neighbour, not you. Alternatively, both neighbours must sign something. They also have a clause specifying the extra cost per hole if core drilling or similar are needed. 
I'm surprised more fencers don't have clauses like that which must be signed before ordering materials, since working between two clients who probably don't like each other is a bad place to be.   

> Old pensioners always got good prices because they kept you stocked up  on cold water and tea/coffee for smoko with maybe even a few scones  thrown in.

  That's another thing I'm sympathetic to. Being supplied regularly with cold gatorade and some energy snacks like bananas or chocky makes an incredible difference to how one feels when doing physical work. So when people come to do work for me I make sure I give them such -- sometimes even lunch if they haven't brought their own brown bag. The looks they give me of surprise and gratitude when I bring gatorade out to them where they're slaving away so they can down it quickly and keep going is something that needs to be seen to be believed. 
I wonder why it's mostly older clients who do this? Maybe because they know what it's like to feel knackered all the time...

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## strangerep

> That's another thing people don't always understand. The hourly rate or day rate or whatever way you charge, has to incorporate tax, superannuation, insurance, rainy days, holidays, tools, travel time, vehicle upkeep, accounting, blah blah blah, on and on. Then, as lazydays says, you hit a slow point in the job and it seems like not much gets done and the customer doesn't get it.

  Yep, I'm sympathetic to that one too. When I've had tradies doing stuff for me on a time-and-materials basis, where I'm in control of the progress of the job, there's been several times when I've thought: "S#!T! We're only 25% into the job and I'm already well over half of my estimated budget". 
It's really hard to remember the "80-20" rule. -- The last 20% of the job takes 80% of the time.  :Doh:    

> Finding good customers is gold, just like customers finding good tradies. Hang on to each other.

  Yeah, absolutely. I've now got a good plumber and a good general builder who get all my work in those areas. Now if only I could find a good painter on Sydney's upper northern beaches who would be willing to work with me on a flexible basis. I have a large house and the entire interior needs painting...

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## goldie1

> Finding good customers is gold, just like customers finding good tradies. Hang on to each other.

   x2 on that . I have one customer I do repairs and maintainence for on his properties. When he wants something
done he leaves a note in my letter box with the details  with an attached cheque signed and made out to me. I just fill out the
amount when I finish and send him a paid invoice. He tends to get my best attention

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## wonderplumb

I got abused today by a customer who was supposed to ring me back on Monday.
I had worked for this guy previously and he called me on Saturday (while I was out with my family) to clear a blocked stormwater drain. He got shirty when I told him I couldn't make it there right away, thought I was pulling his leg when I told him if he insisted I go out there on Saturday arvo it would cost him nearly double so I told him Monday arvo. He said no worries, I'll call you on Monday to see how you're travelling, and I have this documented in my diary.
Monday, no phone call. Same on Tuesday. Wednesday, two missed calls from a private number, no message. That turned out to be him. Somehow I'm the f*****g idiot in all this. 
A couple of months ago, got called up to give a quote to put the gas on to a property. Suss from the start this woman got me out to measure up the job, got a business card off me, then went on to tell me that her husband could do the job easily but they needed a licence number to put on the form for the gas company to install a meter. I rang a few days later to tell her a price and she said it was too much and not to worry about it. A week later the gas company called me and said it's all good to go, I told them I had been scammed for my licence number and that they had intended on doing the job themselves. I had her husband calling me, threatening to give me a hiding because the gas company had come and removed the meter and isolated their gas in the street. 
A guy a couple of weeks ago insisted I drive out to give him a quote on changing four tap washers, another wanted a quote in writing to clear a blocked sewer. 
A woman today kept me on the phone for 15 minutes over a verbal quote to install a dishwasher. 
Another bloke I had worked for told me six months ago he was thinking of renovating his bathroom. He called two weeks ago and said it's ready to go. I siad I couldn't get there untill Monday (this was on a wednesday), he said sorry I need it done today I'll have to get someone else. 
This is just a small taste of the shyte that tradesmen put up with. People seem to think you're sitting around waiting for them to call.

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## ringtail

Bwahahahhahahaha - thats gold wonderplumb. We all have to deal with tools like these, unfortunately. I very rarely do work for R Soles but if I do, they attract the R Sole tax. You know the one. I like the written quote for the blocked sewer. Sorry mate, subject to nature of the blockage, hourly rate only. Its the same deal with the renno work I do. People want a set in stone quote to do renno's and it just cant be done. I give a estimate subject to condition upon demolition. Who knows what you will find under the skin.

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## wonderplumb

My problem is that I like to try and help every one. I don't pick and choose, I'll do any job big or small. 
In saying this, I have an unreal customer base and work for some excellent people, but the amount of s**t you have to wade through to get them is incredible. 
Then you get the ones who stand over you and watch every little move you make, looking right over your shoulder. 
Or the ones who want to "help" but get in the way, or tell you they want to learn how to do it for next time. 
Or the ones who try to screw you for every last cent, crying poor while they display their new ski boat, SS ute, jet skis and trail bikes. 
Amongst my favourite are the ones who say "leave me your invoice and I'll post a cheque"...... "sorry mate, it's C.O.D., I'll take a cheque now thanks"......."I don't have my cheque book on me"......"that's OK, cash is fine"........"I don't carry that kind of cash".........."I'll wait for you to go to the bank"......"My wife has my keycard"......."Gee, how convenient. When you buy fuel, do you tell them to give you an invoice and you'll post a cheque? Or when you buy groceries?"......"mate if you're going to stand there and hassle me you'll get nothing, I'll send you a cheque"...... "No worries, if it's going to be like that I'll take your water meter and return it once I get the cheque"....... "you can't do that"........"watch me"........"oh, wait. I think I remember my wife had some cash here for some stupid reason or another".......

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## shauck

wonderplumb, you need to hire a bouncer rather than an apprentice  :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

Have you had this one -  " Can I pay the bill off,  $100 a week " ?

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## shauck

Mentioned after the job was completed no doubt.

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## ringtail

Nearly. Easily dealt with by not fitting front door locks until payment was made. Paid up very quickly indeed.

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## wonderplumb

> wonderplumb, you need to hire a bouncer rather than an apprentice

   :Biggrin:   
This is just typical sort of stuff, the lady I mentioned who kept me on the phone for 15 minutes over a verbal quote to install a dishwasher forgot to call me back. I called her thismorning as I had told her I could do it at 9am. She said, oh gee, sorry, I got someone else. They were $20 cheaper.

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## wonderplumb

> Have you had this one - " Can I pay the bill off, $100 a week " ?

  Not yet. I have been asked if I bill through a finnce company, 18 months interest free sort of thing. I like your door lock idea though. I have a mate who is ruthless and will drive off with a water meter or gas regulator. Going back late at night, turning off the water meter as hard as you can then hacksawing the top of the spindle off flush with the valve body is another one I've heard of for non payers.
I have heard, though I have no factual evidence of this, that a plumber in Perth had done a heap of work for a woman and when he gave her the final bill she slapped an AVO on him so he couldn't go anywhere near her.

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## Danny

> Going back late at night, turning off the water meter as hard as you can then hacksawing the top of the spindle off flush with the valve body is another one

  Got any more?  
I once knew someone who put a goat in a house while the owners were on holidays.

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## lazydays

Super glue in the locks whist they are out !!!!!!! 
Worst one for me (and the only person I took small claims tribunal) was when I quoted for a fence when I couldn't see one end to the other for trees and debris. I was assured the sewerage was being put on (was septic) and that everything would be cleared. 
When I went to the job trees were still along the fence line (tops had been lopped off but not the rots) and there was a surprise concrete slab underneath.
The slab went over the boundary line by about 50mm so I decided to put the posts hard up against the slab and overhang the rails onto the property line.
First hole I dug I struck a new sewerage pipe. The plumber had been conned also and got in first. His pipe ran down the next doors property line and then back in again.
 I explained to the owner that I would have to go away and get some brackets made up and direct bolt the posts down to the concrete slab, which see agreed to on the extra cost. 
After much mucking about and presenting the final bill it was a "no way". I'll pay the original quote. 
It was the only time I decided to go to court. At court she was all miss innocent and sweet. After I presented my case she presented a invoice from a bobcat driver that he had cleared the fenceline and she had pre-dated the invoice prior to my written quote

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## Black Cat

Conversely. I live in a small rural community. I pay cash on the knocker, no questions asked when someone does work for me. I provide regular cuppas, homebaked food, access to my tool collection if something is left behind/breaks, and run into town to collect spare bits if they run out. 
I have been doing this for three years. But I still can not get a tradie around to give me a quote, turn up to do the work or even show basic courtesy (in some trade areas).

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## Gaza

Glass in fire place when paid in full drop brick down from roof to allow smoke through.

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## ringtail

> Got any more?  
> I once knew someone who put a goat in a house while the owners were on holidays.

  Thats bloody excellent.

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## PeteV

gaza, your letting out the old bricky tricks there... 
a bag of rapid set down an IO works good for revenge tactics. lets see a sewer snake get through concrete!!!!

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## Godzilla73

Gee, your house looks funny with the bricks on the corners smashed off...  :Upset:

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## Master Splinter

A landscaper I know always leaves a loop of irrigation control line in an easy to access spot, so the newly installed system can mysteriously stop working as a bill payment incentive.  Or there was the time that he accidentally knocked over a freshly built brick retaining wall with the bobcat after the brickie mentioned to him that the owner was in a 'not paying the bricklayer' mood.  Must have been faulty hydraulics on the bobcat, as it leaked a huge amount of horrible black used hydraulic oil over the new pattern stamped concrete driveway, too.   
He had the same theory about the worst offenders being the ones with boats/jetskis/shiny 4WDs in the driveway.

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## chrisp

> He had the same theory about the worst offenders being the ones with boats/jetskis/shiny 4WDs in the driveway.

  Tradies???   :Smilie:

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## denaria

lol isn't it time this thread was renamed "Discourteous People"?

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## cherub65

> Have you had this one -  " Can I pay the bill off,  $100 a week " ?

  When I started on my own had a job around the $40k mark and the owner asked if I could do six months interest free, and they were serious.

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## ringtail

With the $ 100 a week thing I told the lady that I could just do $ 100 worth of work per week which would be to drive to her house, set up my gear, pack up my gear and go home. She thought I was joking.

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## wonderplumb

> Got any more?  
> I once knew someone who put a goat in a house while the owners were on holidays.

  Ha ha that's awesome! 
I've heard of a bloke going back to a house and tying the sewer stack into the storm water and vice versa, end result is turds running out onto the street.
A couple of bricks down the boundary shaft and a bag of quick set.
Marbles in the outlet side of the water meter, they eventually jam up somewhere.
A nice big solid rock of fluroscene shoved up the outlet side of the water meter. 
A heap of soapy water pumped into a gas line.
A fella that a friend of mine knows went back and broke into this bloke's car and wired the horn into the brake lights.

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## Danny

Female growth hormone in the home brew!

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## shauck

I mentioned this one in another thread - plumber not paid for work put piece of timber in the upstairs shower drain, grouted in. Wasn't detected for a long time.

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## Draffa

> A fella that a friend of mine knows went back and broke into this bloke's car and wired the horn into the brake lights.

  Legendary.

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## Handyjack

I am a softy if the client says they don't have money to pay me. (Most of my jobs are small for under $250).
I ask if they are leaving the country, and then remind them that I know where they live.
So far all have paid, mostly within the week. The slowest payer is a real estate agent. 
If I am painting a door and not sure about payment, I take the handle and latch with me and reinstall after payment. 
I hate giving estimates or quotes over the phone, every site and job is different and you do not know what problems you may encounter.  All ways better to give a higher price and make a bit extra, than a lower price and lose money on a job. 
One client wanted a small gate repair. I gave a time but before I arrived someone else did the job. However the other tradie did not want to do the other jobs the client had which I have done. These other little jobs have earned me more than I would have got for the gate repair. 
It is swings and roundabouts. There are great clients that look after the tradie, and others who are more hassle than its worth, just as there are tradies who are terrific and others that are rude, lazy and arrogant.

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## Black Cat

well said Handyjack - and judging from some of the posts above, I guess there are one or two tradies on here that would be less than welcome at my place. Bad manners are never acceptable. They are simply a justification for failing to consider others. Something both bad tradies and bad customers should consider. 
And celebrating destructive 'paybacks' is not something I would see as evidence of appreciating the need to show others the consideration you expect for yourself. What goes around comes around, as they say.

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## burraboy

And so to the bill...  I had a plumber do some work a while ago, and while the work had a few small mistakes, it is functional so I'm not raising a fuss.  When the bill came it was divided into materials and labour.  The materials cost was quoted by the firm that supplied them, giving the retail prices for each item.  Would I be right in thinking that the plumber had recieved them at a discount rate and was then making a profit from materials?  That annoyed me and I looked closer at the bill, and because he had used a handful of sand/cement mix, he charged me for a bag,  300mm of chromed tube used was charged for 1.8 metres supplied.  Similar for other materials.  All the leftovers went away on the plumbers truck.  Am I right to have a low opinion of that tradies consideration for his customers or is that normal behaviour?

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## PeteV

burraboy, every thing you describe is pretty standard. the idea of trade and retail prices is like loyalty rewards for the tradie to continue to use particular outlets. with regards to taking the left over materials, you could argue that he was cleaning up after himself... realistically, a bag of mortar mix is about $10, and the chrome tube wouldn't be much more. i'm not sure what the minimum length of chrome tube you can buy is. hope this helps!

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## Danny

> And celebrating destructive 'paybacks' is not something I would see as evidence of appreciating the need to show others the consideration you expect for yourself. What goes around comes around, as they say.

  It is unfortunate that you have chosen to not comment on the 'customer'  who illegally used wonderplumb's license number and then threatened to assult him (the wronged and innocent party) after the ruse was discovered by officialdom.  
As for the comment "What goes around comes around, as they say", it should be noted that no one else has advocated the use of physical violence unless of course you have again chosen to ignore wonderplumb's situation when posting.

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## Black Cat

> Bad manners are never acceptable. They are simply a justification for failing to consider others. Something both bad tradies and bad customers should consider.

  Quoting out of context to try to put people in the wrong is also not entirely sensible really. But I guess you can justify yourself to yourself and that is all that counts to you. 
Wonderplum had a bad experience, I grant you. That is why we have lawyers and police. To deal with that sort of thing. Taking the aggro out on all subsequent clients is not, and never will be justifiable behaviour in the book of anyone who cares to call themselves an adult.

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## Danny

Out of context? 
I did not read a single post by a tradie that either claimed to or advocated "Taking the aggro out on all subsequent clients".  
Perhaps some empathy for the workplace difficulties sometimes faced by the tradies who freely give their time on this forum to help others instead of self serving pious embellishments intermixed with ambiguity and false statement would be a more productive use of your time and less of a waste of others.  
Most tradies have a sense of humour and they deserve respect.

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## Bedford

Ok, I'm actually gunna say something here. 
There are discourteous people in all walks of life, that is unfortunate. 
It doesn't matter how thin you make the pan-cake there's still two sides to it, but we would like members to show some forum decorum, play the ball not the man and have respect for other members opinions. 
Please keep it on topic and leave the personal attacks out of it.

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## shauck

I think the main reason we are all so attracted to this thread is not to take sides but to vent a little and add some humour to the topic. I don't get from all the above posts that anyone is dishing out their own brand of justice to customers who are doing the right thing. I don't condone the tricks being described but it is just a conversation and some of it is just funny. Wouldn't do it myself but will have a bit of a laugh about the inventiveness of people. I think we all know it's two sided as Bedford says. That goes for discourteous and courteous equally.

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## Black Cat

But it still doesn't explain why you don't get a phone call when you are told you will, you don't get a phone call when circumstances prevent the person arriving at the promised time and you don't get even an acknowledgement you are running late if they actually do turn up the same day they had you out of bed at four to ensure everything was ready for them to start work at seven when they said they would arrive. Which I think is the gist of the first post. 
And sure, some of you have had some nasty experiences. Some of your clients have too. Some of your would be clients have become not only non-clients but also bad ambassadors for your businesses because of your failure to offer the basic courtesies. 
Tradies are not the only people who are self-employed. Some of your clients are too. They take time away from potential paid employment to wait around on the offchance you might turn up = and while you are off being paid for that other job that is so absorbing apparently ten seconds to send a text is too much to ask, they are losing money hand over fist. 
Unlike tradies, they actually have to go chasing their work. They have to buy papers to find out what is about. Write proposals for clients in the hope that they get the job they are competing against others for, do unpaid research to get their head around the particular challenges of the job they are bidding for and I could go on endlessly but you know what - I do what I do by choice. And having made my choice I recognise that it has its downsides and that the upsides balance it out. But above all, I recognise that my reputation is my ticket to employment, and that even when things are on the downturn, I will get a job over those who are long on promise and short on delivery because my reputation says - get Black Cat and you get someone who will deliver on time, give you ample warning if there are going to be unavoidable delays, and will ensure you get a quality product. 
So next time you decide that person who you agreed to meet at a certain time is not worth a phonecall, ask yourself how happy you would be if they were costing you as much as you are potentially costing them!

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## wonderplumb

> Unlike tradies, they actually have to go chasing their work. They have to buy papers to find out what is about. Write proposals for clients in the hope that they get the job they are competing against others for, do unpaid research to get their head around the particular challenges of the job they are bidding for

  Yeah, all my work is simply handed to me, I don't have top chase a thing.   

> So next time you decide that person who you agreed to meet at a certain time is not worth a phonecall, ask yourself how happy you would be if they were costing you as much as you are potentially costing them!

  Works both ways champ. As I originally said, I get dicked around by the general public way more than I dick them around.

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## wonderplumb

> And so to the bill... I had a plumber do some work a while ago, and while the work had a few small mistakes, it is functional so I'm not raising a fuss. When the bill came it was divided into materials and labour. The materials cost was quoted by the firm that supplied them, giving the retail prices for each item. Would I be right in thinking that the plumber had recieved them at a discount rate and was then making a profit from materials? That annoyed me and I looked closer at the bill, and because he had used a handful of sand/cement mix, he charged me for a bag, 300mm of chromed tube used was charged for 1.8 metres supplied. Similar for other materials. All the leftovers went away on the plumbers truck. Am I right to have a low opinion of that tradies consideration for his customers or is that normal behaviour?

  Yes, you would be right in thinking that the plumber bought it for slightly cheaper than retail. 
Depending on how much gear was left over and the cost of said gear, you might not be right to hold a low opinion of that particular tradesman. He may have used some gear off his truck and charged you the docket price to balance it out. The gear left over might have only been a couple of bucks, sand and cement is worth about $8.

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## Black Cat

> Works both ways champ. As I originally said, I get dicked around by the general public way more than I dick them around.

  Yes, I get that. But is that a reason for dicking the next poor sod around who has not done you any harm other than suggesting you might like to work on their project? I really struggle to understand why, if you object to that being done to you, you might consider you are justified in doing it to someone who has not given you cause for a grievance. Fine, pay back on the dickheads and tyrekickers, but those of us with a real job, who are willing to do the right thing, have a track record of doing the right thing, are known for it in the district - why do we still get the right royal runaround. I have not yet had an explanation for this.

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## CPE W&C

> Yes, I get that. But is that a reason for dicking the next poor sod around who has not done you any harm other than suggesting you might like to work on their project? I really struggle to understand why, if you object to that being done to you, you might consider you are justified in doing it to someone who has not given you cause for a grievance. Fine, pay back on the dickheads and tyrekickers, but those of us with a real job, who are willing to do the right thing, have a track record of doing the right thing, are known for it in the district - why do we still get the right royal runaround. I have not yet had an explanation for this.

  There is no explanation Black Cat. Its been pointed out that both tradesman and client alike dick each other around at times. Just like hiring any profession, you win some, you lose some. When you lose, you put it down to experience and try again. Youll get the right man for the job eventually :Wink:

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## wonderplumb

> Yes, I get that. But is that a reason for dicking the next poor sod around who has not done you any harm other than suggesting you might like to work on their project? I really struggle to understand why, if you object to that being done to you, you might consider you are justified in doing it to someone who has not given you cause for a grievance. Fine, pay back on the dickheads and tyrekickers, but those of us with a real job, who are willing to do the right thing, have a track record of doing the right thing, are known for it in the district - why do we still get the right royal runaround. I have not yet had an explanation for this.

  I don't dick people around. Sure I have been late for appointments and other things have come up preventing me from being somewhere but I always make a phone call to explain the situation and if need be set another suitable time. 
As for "paybacks", I've never had to actually do so. I almost did with that idiot's water meter, but that's what you get when you don't want to pay. The next tradesman he gets might not be so nice.
Like I said, I try to please everyone and I don't pick and choose jobs. Perhaps I'm being too soft. As for your question, you're asking the wrong bloke.

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## shauck

We are all human. We all (including myself and everyone here) make mistakes, do the wrong thing, misunderstand each other, behave badly, blame others too quickly, etc... We all do really well at something, work hard, look after others, do favours at our own expense, etc....  
Think of tradies/customers as human beings first and you may vaguely understand why you sometimes experience a less than ideal situation. I've never met a perfect person.  
I also have a theory on the no call back/ no show.  I have noticed over the years that it is fairly common for people to not want to say no to others. In a subconscious kind of way. Avoidance behaviour is the result.

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## Black Cat

Yes, this is true - moral cowardice at its worst, lol. There is a certain plumber in my town who will hide behind his car to avoid being seen by disgruntled clients (and there are a lot of us in the village). It never works in the long run. 
Wonderplum, one of the problems with the English language is the word 'you'. It is actually the plural form - that is, it refers to people collectively. Unfortunately it has become the singular form also, so when someone is referring to bad behaviour collectively it seems they are referring to the individual. I was not having a shot at you individually, but the 'you' that is the great amorphous crowd of poor communicators and self-absorbed prats who seem to feel their behaviour is justified, but who get shirty when others criticise them. 
I would still like a direct answer to my question, but I suspect it is becoming self-explanatory really ... there are a lot of people out there who have no manners and who feel they are being mistreated if they are asked to display some.

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## shauck

This is really bugging you, isn't it? There is no straight forward answer. People are flawed. That sounds like a straight forward answer....hmmm

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## ringtail

The answer is quite simple. Lack of education and stupidity ( pretty much the same thing). You dont need a degree in business management or human resources to be a tradie or run your own trade business. A lot ( not all) tradies are quite poorly educated in the classical sense but are very good at their job. Some are just stupid full stop. But this is not exclusive to the trades. Walk into any shop, anywhere in the country and level of incompetance is quite staggering. Personally Ive found some of the worst communicators to be the " professionals". Doctors, lawyers, accountants etc...It seems that amongst their peers they are fine, in the real world they are lost. I guess thats why they have PA's.

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## Danny

> There is a certain plumber in my town who will hide behind his car to avoid being seen by disgruntled clients (and there are a lot of us in the village). It never works in the long run.

  One thing I have learnt in life is that some people are their own worst enemy, paybacks or holding grudges is negative energy and if someone has screwed you over, Father Time will provide satisfaction. At the end of the day, you have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and the immeasurable satisfaction of doing a good job for an appreciative customer often results in other work through recommendations.  
I also learnt years ago that my property manager has a good selection of reliable trades persons and handy men to call on and I have often asked for his recommendation for many services including tree felling, painting, tiling, electrical and carpeting to name a few. If you deal with or know a *good* agent, this would be a good avenue to explore as my agent has very successfully managed to sort the wheat from the chaff.

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## shauck

Danny's right. My partner is a property manager and she has a bag full of good tradie recommendations. She also has long term experience with them so she has a well rounded view point. Try and get one to come and do something tho... They are all flat out.

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## Black Cat

Yep, I think you are right. It is down to having the local knowledge really. And if I knew then what I know now of local tradies, my project would be a lot further along the path than it is - live and learn I guess.  
And yes, there is a certain satisfaction in knowing that in my present work, I am able to steer people toward those tradies who have done well by me, and away from the dickheads who tried to shaft me (even after finding out what I do for a living - silly boys). But it would be nice to have back all those hours I have wasted while being messed around, and all those positive vibes I lost venting my frustration on inanimate objects ...

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## wonderplumb

Thank you for the lesson on grammar, Black Cat.
I was well aware of the context in which you used 'you' and 'your'.

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## Handyjack

> And so to the bill...  I had a plumber do some work a while ago, and while the work had a few small mistakes, it is functional so I'm not raising a fuss.  When the bill came it was divided into materials and labour.  The materials cost was quoted by the firm that supplied them, giving the retail prices for each item.  Would I be right in thinking that the plumber had recieved them at a discount rate and was then making a profit from materials?  That annoyed me and I looked closer at the bill, and because he had used a handful of sand/cement mix, he charged me for a bag,  300mm of chromed tube used was charged for 1.8 metres supplied.  Similar for other materials.  All the leftovers went away on the plumbers truck.  Am I right to have a low opinion of that tradies consideration for his customers or is that normal behaviour?

  OK. So you have been charged for a bag of cement. Do you want the left overs? Of the chrome tube do you want or need the other 1.5 metres (assuming there were no stuff ups)? This is standard practice. For a dob of silicone you pay for the whole cartridge. What are you going to do with the rest? It might get used on another job, but it might not. You might ask for it and twelve months later when you need to use it find that it has gone off. There is also a good chance other items were used that did not appear on the invoice - how were they paid for? 
Tadies also need to supply tools. They get worn, damaged and lost. They need to be replaced. Some speciality tools are going to be hired for a job. The cost of all this needs to be factored into the bill.  
Trade discount - that varies from supplier to supplier. I have trade card for Bunnings and get a big fat 0% on a lot of what I buy. Another hardware store where I also have a trade card will give 0%, 5% or 10% depending on the item. A trade store may not have different prices for trade or casual buyer, but will do billing differently. Trade customer might need to pay 30 days from end of month (credit account), casual buyer COD (cash up front).

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## burraboy

Thanks Wonderplumb and Handyjack, it seems that that practice is the usual one.  Look at that from my point of view, I had supplied the plumber off-white cement and also sand to set the toilet.  That would have matched the rest of what I had used in the room, but he used his own premixed grey stuff anyway, then when I got the bill, he had charged me for a whole bag of it.  That annoyed me and got me looking at the rest of the bill to see what I was actually getting charged for.  That bag of stuff was probably worth $80 to the plumber by the time he charged 10 clients for a full bag as he slowly used it up.  I wonder how many clients paid for 1.8 m of chrome tube before that was all gone too.
Plumbers are businesspeople, the rate they charge for labour reflects not only the actual labour but all the other expenses involved in running a business, that includes gas, wear on tools, phones, super, tax and so on.  No plumber I've ever met is going to hire a specialist tool and not charge for it either.
   It was never a matter of wanting the leftovers, I just dislike the feeling that I'm getting ripped off at every opportunity, and I find that a great discourtesy to me as a customer.  Just because it is industry practice, I don't think it should be acceptable.

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## shauck

I think it's reasonable to charge for the full item sometimes, especially when the item/material has a short life span once opened. Silicone is one of these. An open bag of cement is hard to look after, keep moisture out of it, not get cement dust all over your stuff, find room to store it, etc. It's hardly valuable to me if I only use it occasionally.  
I tend to to leave things behind with the customer if they want them, seeing as they paid for it. Often they don't want it. Sometimes I don't want or need the leftover stuff either which is why they pay for the bag, packet, length, sheet, whatever, to do the job.  
If I have to buy someting specific for a job, it goes on the bill. If I use something of mine that I keep on hand and use a lot, like gun nails for example, I charge a portion of it's cost price. This would go for cement too but only if I used it a lot (which I don't). It all depends.  
I also don't charge retail. I pass on my discount, 25% on timber and 10% on everything else (local hardware). My reasoning on this is, the customer, usually a local, may be offered a discount too of some sort. Maybe not as much as 25% on timber but as I don't know what they might be able to get, I just pass it on. I wouldn't feel right charging retail in this situation.  
If I didn't live in a small town, I would charge retail as I have to fork out my money up front for materials and wait for re-payment.  
Having said all that, If your plumber actually charges that bag of cement to 10 customers, he/she is outright unscrupulous. I hope not too many out there do this.

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## Danny

You would have had the opportunity to query the reason for the non adherence to direction at the completion of the job and the additional charge for the resultant purchase of cement when later presented the bill and this is now something that you will be prepared for should there be a next time. Given your annoyance that he did not use matching 'cement', it sounds like you may not be using that business again anyway.  
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, and the lesson afterwards.
—Vernon Law, former major league baseball player

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## denaria

As long as I was asked if I wanted the leftovers, I'd be happy. I remember a refrigeration friend telling me he charged 40% above the cost to him of a part/machine and that it was typical of the industry. But then he also when called in to check out a failed commercial size refrigerator I was using in my home because I liked sturdy machines, offering to 'torch' the machine so I could claim on my home insurance. I was shocked and declined preferring to live with my own conscience, though he said that was usual practice too.

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## Gaza

classic tightarse home owner, i found this add on gumtree today. 
"Hi all after a honest genuine builder to give a 
quote on a simple extension to existing house,have been quoted 30,000 and 32,000 
already wich is reasonable but thought i would try some other builders. job 
located in greystanes."

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## ringtail

Whats he hoping for I wonder - 31 000 ?, 29 000 ? 33 000 ?

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## wonderplumb

Two things, first you usually use at least half a bag of sand and cement to bed a pan.
Secondly, you can't use off white cement to bed pans. It sets too hard and too quick, shrinks too much and will crack the foot of the pan. If it doesn't do this, it will certainly pull up at least a square metre of tiles should you have to remove it to say, replace a leaking pan collar.
Another thing, every single time you buy something off someone, that person is making 
money on top. Money off you, regardless of what it is you are purchasing.

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## burraboy

SpecificationsWhite Portland cement differs physically from gray cement only in terms of its color. Its setting behavior and strength development are essentially the same as that expected in gray cement, and it meets standard specifications such as ASTM C 150 and EN 197. 
A different opinion.

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## PeteV

not quite accurate burraboy... off white cement always sets harder and quicker than grey cement. i'm a brickie and deal with cement everyday.
hope this helps!

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## KLHConstruction

My team and i treat jobs from as simple as a $20 hinge replacement to a $40000 kitchen up to $400000 heritage facade reconstruction on the main street in sydney george st all as important as each other.
Look you never no when you will run out of work or when you will have a ungratefull customer,Picky architech,
But the trick is and always will be to win the big jobs and squeeze the little ones into the down time of the big jobs.
I have found sometime its the unorganised tradie that dosnt have a trade diary or note book to put all the clients information into and then writes it on scrap paper and looses there number.

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## woodchip

> Two things, first you usually use at least half a bag of sand and cement to bed a pan.
> Secondly, you can't use off white cement to bed pans. It sets too hard and too quick, shrinks too much and will crack the foot of the pan. If it doesn't do this, it will certainly pull up at least a square metre of tiles should you have to remove it to say, replace a leaking pan collar.

  
This is exactly what my plumber told me when I also wanted to use off-white cement.
Must be one of those things that are only learnt on the job, through years of experience (not by reading AS etc), & passed down from tradie to apprentice. 
cheers

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