# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Advice on permit requirements?

## ChasingSugar

Hi there, 
I am having heaps of trouble getting solid advice on what I have now been told by both the council planning department and a building surveyor is a grey area!  Hoping someone might have an idea for my guidance please! 
Long time reader, first time poster.  :Smilie:  
I have purchased a holiday house in a Vic Gippsland beachside area.  I am rennovating the house to rent it out.  The house sits on a 900m2 block, on a corner.  Separate to the house is an outside toilet.  Fully plumbed in. 
I am wanting to section off this toilet and add a caravan and annex to the site.  This area would be used by me occasionally for holiday purposes.  I've been advised a fence wouldn't be wise as that is technically a subdivision, so planning on planting some hedges for a garden separation.  :Smilie:  
The idea here is in 3-5 years the house will be our holiday home, but right now we can't afford to have it outright, so need to rent it out.  By adding a caravan and annex I figure this is a good way to go to have access now during that period. 
Is this ok to proceed with?  Do I need a permit planning or building? 
I have been advised by Council Planning that I could build a shed with an ensuite, and place the caravan next to the shed.  This would be ok as it's not a dwelling.  But I don't think the above is that much different to be honest!!  Substitute the shed and ensuite for the annex and external toilet.  I see there is a similar post in the forum for someone who also recieved the caravan and shed advice. 
Thoughts?  Please help!! 
Thanks!

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## SilentButDeadly

Council would have little or no say (jurisdiction) where you choose to store your caravan on your own block.  Even less if you occasionally choose to sleep in it. 
Of greater concern in my mind is that your prospective tenants 'might' have concerns about your proposal which may affect the potential rental return on the property....

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## ChasingSugar

Thanks for the reply! 
A fair comment for sure.  I'm hoping I can seciton off an area and clearly define - "you've rented this part" (which is 75% of the property!).  There's not much rental stock there, let alone of good quality, so I am going for a great rennovation to entice a tennant.  Hopefully that will outweigh the corner sectioned off for my use!! 
Ideally I would like to fence it off with brushwood or similar, but a friend in the building industry advised that such a fence would act like an illegal subdivision. I asked if I could use planting like a hedge, and he said that would be a smarter option. 
Anyone else have input/advice please? 
Thanks!!

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## Bedford

> Ideally I would like to fence it off with brushwood or similar, but a friend in the building industry advised that such a fence would act like an illegal subdivision.

  How can you have an illegal subdivision, it's not a subdivision until it's been through the titles office and shows as two different parcels. 
It is very common to fence a block in half and only rent part of it, happens all the time when people intend to subdivide or use the other half for whatever, without having to consult with the tenant. Fence it first, then rent the bit you want to rent. 
Plenty of properties are fenced in half and have two houses rented separately (this is a true Dual Occ), but it's all on one title.

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## ChasingSugar

I thought that too actually.  The comment was they will look at it and say hey - you've subdivided when you shouldn't have.  I agree with your thoughts though Bedford! 
Looking at my risk, the conversion of the toilet to a toilet/ensuite should be AOK to do, as it would just be extending a small toilet shed by room enough for a shower and sink/mirror.  That shouldn't have to go as I am told it is find to have a clean up area outside the home for gardners and beachhomes and the like.... 
If I fence and section off the caravan and annex, the way I see it worst case I get told that setup is not allowed (which no one seems to be able to tell me right now despite repeated questions to council and building surveyor!!).  So if they say I have to remove, the way I see it, it is only really the Annex that is a problem as you are allowed to store a caravan! And I thinnk section off part of your yard with a fence? 
So if I get contacted by the council, the aluminium annex is the only thing I would have to remove/sell.  And this could be replaced by a big shed with permits anyway!! 
Crazy....!

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## intertd6

So every pool fence or such to keep in animals has legally subdivided properties..... I don't think so, you can can hundreds of reasons for a fence within a boundary of a property.
regards inter

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## chippie'skid

A caravan and annexe is not a "dwelling", as defined in the planning scheme, so this is not a dual occupancy, and there is no such thing as an illegal subdivision. The Council will not care unless they receive complaints. In that case, they are likely to issue a warning before issuing any fines. If they do send you anything, take notice of it. The letter will have to specify which part of the scheme you are breaching. If you do go to the council asking again, and they tell you that you can't do it, make them tell you why - which clause of the planning scheme are you breaching.  
However, I know nothing about building permits... so that's a separate matter.

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## Danny

> Of greater concern in my mind is that your prospective tenants 'might' have concerns about your proposal which may affect the potential rental return on the property....

  Agree with SBD. There are also various clauses in rental contracts that limit a landlord's 'visitation' rights including required notice to visit and the tenant's right to quiet enjoyment. You would need legal advice regarding the legality of over-ruling such clauses in the standard contract. 
There are also taxation implications with your proposed sole use of part of the property that you need to consider. Also, have you sought the opinion of a property rental agency in regard to their willingness or otherwise to manage the property under your proposed conditions?

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## shauck

My partner is a property rental manager and I recall that one of her landlords lives next door to the tenanted house. Of course, they are not allowed on the tennants property without following the rules but they are allowed to be next door.  
May be different in your case but I don't think so. You won't need to ask a lawyer as the property rental manager of your local agency should know the answer to this.  
This tennant doesn't even know the neighbour is the landlord. This would be my advice to you, assuming you can go ahead with it. Imagine you turn up for some time out and they approach you with problems that really ought to go through the property manager. It's a two way street. You keep out of their hair and vice verca.

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## shauck

Just spoke to my partner (property manager). She says definitely not a prob if you put a fence up to divide/create privacy. If prospective tenants are shown the set up and agree to it, no issues. The issue will be regarding power supply. If you go through a real estate agent, you will either have to get in a separate meter (costly) or pay the power bill and increase the rent accordingly. This may be a problem if the tenant abuses power usage. Does happen. If you want to split the bill by say 10-90% or whatever, the only legal way would be to privately rent without real estate agent. You can draw up your own contract using REIV contract and alter as required, and remove the REIV header). This will be legal.

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