# Forum Home Renovation Stairs, Steps and Ramps  Existing stairnosing is flush with subfloor.. what options do i have?

## attilazoltan

So I have laid a 12mm laminate floor on the bottom floor. I pulled up the carpet off the stairs and was surprised with existing timber stairnosing.
I am now up to doing the laminate floor on the upper floor, where the staircase lands. 
Problem is.. as seen in hte pictures below, the stair nosing is set flush with the existing chipboard subfloor... My laminate is 12mm so will be higher than the stair. 
What do people normally do in this situation? Is there a piece of trim that can be used to lower the 12mm? Or do people usually remove the stair nosing, and refit it 12mm higher? Or put a second stair nosing on top? 
I cant see it being easy to remove as it is cut into the side sections of hte staircase as shown. 
Appreciate any ideas or suggestions. Not sure how to tackle this one.. 
Thanks.
Attila.

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## ringtail

A bit tricky. Is the rise of the top the same as the rest ? If so you are in trouble. All the rises must be identical so if you lay flooring over the top nosing the rise of the last step will be higher than the rest which is a massive no no. You would have to run new flooring over every tread to rectify the situation.

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## phild01

Might have to re-carpet as steps must be consistent for safety.

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## intertd6

> A bit tricky. Is the rise of the top the same as the rest ? If so you are in trouble. All the rises must be identical so if you lay flooring over the top nosing the rise of the last step will be higher than the rest which is a massive no no. You would have to run new flooring over every tread to rectify the situation.

  the top & bottom rise can be different, how much I can't recall.
regards inter

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## ringtail

No they can't ( but if they can it's news to me). Although the bottom for outdoor stairs is nearly always illegal. There is absolutely no excuse for internals

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## notvery

couldnt you just have a couple of inch wide of moulding at the join to raise the floor gently up to the new surface height.with a 12mm rise it would be fine, you might need too embed it into the floor to make it a smooth rise. you would barely notice it. its kind of common if you have wooden stairs and then carpet on the landing the edging strip for the carpet is in effect a little moulding as i tried badly to describe

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## phild01

> couldnt you just have a couple of inch wide of moulding at the join to raise the floor gently up to the new surface height.with a 12mm rise it would be fine, you might need too embed it into the floor to make it a smooth rise. you would barely notice it. its kind of common if you have wooden stairs and then carpet on the landing the edging strip for the carpet is in effect a little moulding as i tried badly to describe

  I would be very reluctant to raise or ramp any part of the top level at or near the stair.  I think you are inviting a trip accident to happen and at the top of a stairway that is dangerous. 
Even embedding a foot hold strip into the existing floor at floor level still means a trip hazard where it meets the new floor covering.

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## notvery

Wouldnt just having stairs be a trip risk. Maybe we should get rid of them all! 12mm and a smooth rise would not pose a trip risk. The idea is already in use in Lots of places as i described with carpet. Don't have the statistics but never heard of an issue

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## Marc

If you want to keep all riser the same, since you already made the first one 12 mm lower, you need to pack 12mm each tread. How, is your choice. The only other alternative is to live with an upper rise that is higher and a first one that is lower both by 12mm.  
The hard way with the best result, would be to lift the wooden tread and pack under them, but from your pictures I don't know if that is possible without much damage. 
Or ... add 12mm on top of each tread be it ply or carpet underlay and then carpet on top. Either way it is a bum of a job especially due to the bullnose since the play will need to merge with the bull nose or it will be a trip hazard.
If you want to go with the easy alternative, you still need to pack the last tread up to the level of the new floor in some creative way since none of the proposed ramping up or mold is advisable. Better have one ugly step but safe....or even lift only that one step and pack under it, and let the others be.

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## attilazoltan

recarpeting is not an option. I guess worst case I could put new treads on top of each existing stair, but that would cost ~$1000 and a lot of work to get right... 
I think I will have to find a least trip-hazardous way to ramp it down gently...
I do have a good 150mm horizontal distance to play with.
15mm/150mm = 10% incline
Surely thats not enough to fall flat on?   
Regardless I will do some reading to find out if it actually is an issue.
Heres what ive found:  Stair Safety - Buildipedia
Stated that a different height top or bottom step is the most common cause of falls down stairs. *Maximum riser height difference stated as 3/8" (9.5mm).*
This is apparently according to the 2012 International Residence Code (IRC).  WATCH: Everybody Trips on This One Subway Stair | TIME.com
Staircase at a Subway station with the issue. Apparently a stair in the middle of the flight is 1/2" (13mm) higher than the rest. Everyone stacks it.
So it seems it is an issue..  
If I have a 12mm timber floor, thats just about the same height difference if you include a squashed 2mm underlay.
But maybe if its ramped up gradually rather than a step it wont be quite the same? 
Bit stuck with this. Don't know what to do.
I might try and make a gradual ramp, ending it as far back from the top stair tread as possible, and see if I ever stumble on it. If I do ill go the effort of retreading all the stairs from top down.

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## attilazoltan

Should also keep in mind that if the tread is further forward or backward, it is equally as much of an issue. Could be in that video at the subway that the middle stair tread poked out a few mm extra compared to the rest too. 
In my mind the diagonal line between top and bottom tread is more important than the height. If a nose pokes out from this line further you will trip on it. If its pulled back a bit you will miss it on the way down...
So im thinking if the top stair is higher, the issue is it will poke out a bit more. So moving the tread back slightly will counter the effect slightly even if it is higher..
But thats as much of a job as fixing the whole staircase...  
After thinking about all this and why it is a trip hazard, I seem to think the issue is more with the actual entire stair being higher, as opposed to a small gradual ramp 150mm back from the front edge of the tread. Think ill try find a trim piece, or plane down the final floorboard and see how I go.

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## Marc

making a ramp as you propose is more work than lifting the last tread and pack under it. And don't forget your first one is now too low. of course if you lift just the last tread, you need to also line it up with the rest of the tread by cutting back a bit.  
The old stone fortress had the access stairs with intentional difference in their risers to make the assailant trip and fall upon each other. Apparently the resident got used to it or may be they did not matter much ...  :Smilie:

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## attilazoltan

If I was to lift this last tread, how would I get it out? I have no idea about how stairs are put together so wouldnt know where to start hacking. Looks as they are slotted into either side pretty neatly..

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## Marc

Not easy but feasible, the tread is slotted into the stringer. Do you have access under the stairs? Is it an all timber structure?

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## attilazoltan

yeah its all Timber, and i do have access under the stairs, its open on the side.

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## Marc

OK, access is good. Now tell me is the area below visible and has to look good, or is it inside an enclosure and looks don't matter? 
 Also, how good are you with tools and woodwork? 
There are a few different ways to do this, none easy. 
They include cutting the tread, prising it out of the stringer, carving a new slot in the stringer a bit higher, build a support for the tread under it, plug the slot under the tread in the new position and fixing it in a inconspicuous way from below. 
Think about it or ring a carpenter that has made staircases before, not just a carpenter builder, and explain the situation.  It is not really hard to do but you must be neat and precise if you want it to look half decent.

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## attilazoltan

Thanks for your response.    
This is the Living Room. It kind of split like a loft, with the corridor at the top of the stairs. Through the door at the bottom of the stairs is the kitchen/dining area. So the staircase is kind of bang smack in hte middle of the house, splitting the large open dining space, large open living space, and upstairs beroom areas. 
So you can see that its open. Not super visible as the stairs dont go high enough to see the underside of them. I did however floorboard the space underneath as well to keep it all looking good. Was considering closing the space off with a few drawers for storage in the future as the space is useless for anything else, other than giving the feel of a larger space.  
One question I have- when I cut out the tread, am I just cutting straight down from the inside of the stringer? Then adding some supports underneath, refitting hte same stringer a bit higher, and using a bit of silicon to fill any gaps between raised stair tread and stringer? So the end product will have all treads slotted into stringer, while the one raised tread will actually be supported some other way from udnerneath? 
Just wanting to visualise it at this point.  
As mentioned in some other threads I think you helped out in, this is my own house and im looking to learn what kind of pitfalls there are when renovating your own place, and exploring all solutions.  
I think I will attempt some kind of ramp or trim piece on top first as its non-destructive, and if that turns out crap I might try this approach and raise the whole tread up a touch.

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## phild01

Looking at that pic I'd be inclined to have a go at lifting the whole thing whatever it is you require.

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## ringtail

Put down lino instead  :Tongue:   or just get a new stair case made

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## Marc

Now that I see the whole picture, I realise it is a relatively small staircase. 
The treads in your stairs are fitted from behind, that is the slot is open in the back rather than in the front, so to take one tread out it is a matter of knocking it back out. The problem is that the last one at the top is blocked by the chipboard flooring. 
If it was a large heavy stair I think it was worth cutting out part of the flooring to allow the tread to be pushed back without detaching the stringers but in your case, it should be much easier to detach the stairs as a unit and pack it up that little bit you need. After all it was fitted as a prefabricated unit, and you can reposition it with relatively little work. Try to locate bolts or screws used to fix it to floor and wall. Minimise damage at all cost but remember the stairs were not born there!  :Smilie:

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## intertd6

> No they can't ( but if they can it's news to me). Although the bottom for outdoor stairs is nearly always illegal. There is absolutely no excuse for internals

   Yes they can & someone provided the the proof here a while back, the reason for it is when a run of stairs meets an uneven surface like a sloping pavement the top & bottom rise can be a different height to the rest of the risers.
regards

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## ringtail

Yeah well, someone told me I won lotto the other week. I didn't believe them either. I can't find anything online that contradicts the BCA or the new National Code.   http://www.colacotway.vic.gov.au/Fil...de_Extract.pdf

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## Marc

http://www.hpw.qld.gov.au/SiteCollec...uments/082.pdf
This may explain what Inter refers to. 
If it is still the case, the OP has nothing to worry about and can leave things as they are.

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## r3nov8or

I would 'create' a new nose (just 12 mm high, or the whole nose plus 12mm if you are feeling adventurous) from a contrasting hardwood, that is about 50mm wide. This contrast will draw the eye and the user will realise there is 'something different' about the top step. 
I would have a lot more fun doing this than raising the whole stairway by 12mm  :Smilie:  (which transfers the 12mm 'issue' to the bottom step, and messes with the handrail height where they meet at the top)

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## ringtail

Wow. Hey that's good to know though. Sorry inter, my bad. That is so dodgy though. In reality it means that each rise can vary by 10 mm which is just rubbish. The news flash states it is not intended to compensate for poor workmanship but that's exactly what is doing and exactly what is will be used forby dodgy guys. A real "she'll be right" news flash that one. However, if I'm reading it correctly, the top rise can be 15 mm lower than the rest but only 5 mm higher than the last riser height. So if the op's stair rises are all consistent then he can only go 5 mm higher or 15 lower.

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## attilazoltan

Thanks for that Marc. 
Also might point out that its consistent with the allowable (3/8") tolerance I linked to above. If one tread is 5mm above, and the next is 5mm below. 
This does however imply that my top tread can only be 5mm higher, because of the tolernace placed on the next lower tread, which COULD be 5mm lower. So in the end I might get the laser pointer out and point it up the tread line. As long as the top tread is not raised more than 10mm, 'shell be right'  :Wink: 
But it will. It will be like 15 over.  
Either way now that I have some ideas ill have a think and a look over the weekend once ive finished laying the flooring on top, and see what the situation actually is.

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## Marc

If you really hate the idea of lifting the whole staircase and still want to address that top tread, have a look under the corridor if you have access, may be, just may be the idea of cutting the floor and sliding the top tread back is not as bad as it sounds. 
Making a new "nose" for the tread is of course possible yet that requires to cut router the step at perfection and carve the ends by hand since the nose of the tread is behind the edge of the stringer. just as it is possible to cut the tread off, flush to one stringer, prise it out of the other stringer, router or carve a wider slot for it and reposition it on top of spacers and, and, and ... This little jobs, are simple but require a bit of cabinet maker/ jointer experience and not for the faint hearted.
One question ... Why are you worried about the 12mm variation? it's not like you have to pass it by council right? No one in your position would worry one bit.  
Last but not least. You could pull a swift one if you are to carpet the stairs, by placing a 12mm ply on the top tread to match the new flooring, 9mm ply on the second last one, 6mm on the one before and 3mm on the preantepenultimate one, all edges properly planed to merge with the bullnose ... 
4/8/12 would work just as well ... I like long words  :Smilie:

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## intertd6

> Wow. Hey that's good to know though. Sorry inter, my bad. That is so dodgy though. In reality it means that each rise can vary by 10 mm which is just rubbish. The news flash states it is not intended to compensate for poor workmanship but that's exactly what is doing and exactly what is will be used forby dodgy guys. A real "she'll be right" news flash that one. However, if I'm reading it correctly, the top rise can be 15 mm lower than the rest but only 5 mm higher than the last riser height. So if the op's stair rises are all consistent then he can only go 5 mm higher or 15 lower.

  i couldn't remember the exact details of the allowances, in this case it would be far more economical to just top & add a new nosing to each tread pushing the difference in rise to the first riser where the difference is allowable. Lifting the actual stairs does the exact same thing in a more complicated costly way.
regards inter

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## phild01

If the stairs are screwed to the wall then I'd definitely consider lifting it as it looks a simple stair install already.   Undoing the floating floor might be necessary.
You could get a quote for the feasibility for this as it seems you want to maintain the current timber finish.

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## notvery

its a 12mm lift.. are you gonna lift the whole staircase for 12mm???? FMD. perspective people. just do the little ramp i said earlier. it will be set back 6 inches or so from the top step its not a tripping hazard and if it does trip someone up then its probably doing the world a favour as they probably needed triping up. just make sure there is a bean bag and not a sharp table at the top of the stairs. heck you could even just nail a strip of wood down temporarily and try it out to see if it would cause a problem. 
it is quite interesting to see the responses that different people have. everyone has their own style and method of doing these things. tends to reflect approaches they take in other threads to.

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## phild01

Each to their own, lifting an unattached  stair like that would not be difficult.  If it is easy enough to do (screwed fixings) I would choose to have it right and not half a****.  Would it be too hard to ask a staircase company to quote.

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## notvery

I agree that the lift itself would not be rocket science. it is a LOT more work than my suggestion tho. 
oh but if you lift then the balustrades/ handrail well they will be 12mm higher than the top post they tie into. i assume that from your comments above you would do it properly so you wouldnt just square it off 12mm lower you would RAISE the post??? i dont think so but lets go with that cos we are doing it properly... great post raised... job done... oh no no its not cos we now have an off height balustrade/handrail at the mezanine level.. that nasty 12mm.. its lower than the stairs handrail and post and doesnt flow from the stair balustrade.. oh well better fix that then cant just slap a 12mm strip of wood on the top so we have better raise the whole thing meaning.. well a lot of work...
i might be taking it a bit far but...if your doing it properly
other things to consider with a lift(having taken a stair case off a brick/plaster wall not a framed wall) damage to the wall. it will probably not just be 2 screws that come out nicely and the thing just detatches from the wall. years of just sitting tight to each other may make the riser and the wall think they have a special relationship that they dont want to miss out on. remove the stair and enough of the wall comes with it to really make your day. you need to fix up the wall under the stair(easy with a bit of moulding if that counts as doing it properly???) 
im not saying dont do a lift. if you wish to make a lot of work for yourself then fine.if im honest that is the best solution and if i had all the time in the world its what i would do. but if you dont have the time money or skills oh and you will need some more hands as it will weigh a little bit then forget it.

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## phild01

The handrails differential etc, would not concern me greatly.
  Yes, more work but so what.
  If I knew something could be right I would just do it.
  Having a low step at the bottom and a high step at the top would bother me no end.  I just expect stairs to feel right when I and other people use them.

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## Marc

Ha ha, notvery, you have a funny way to describe things. 
The reality is (probably ... hard to say without a closer look) the staircase was built as a unit but the handrail newel post and balustrade was installed afterwards in situ, so to do it "properly" one would need to take the newel post and handrail and balusters off, carefully take the handrail off the top post, raise as required and build back. The handrail can land on the side of the top post a touch higher and if in luck and there is enough post there, nothing further needs to be done. Worst case scenario and the handrail merges with the mezzanine handrail, a bit of ingenuity is required, but no major surgery. After building a few staircases this seems as a bit of fun but I concede that it can become nasty and you have to be ready to repair bits and even make new bits as you damage them. Best case scenario detaching the handrail from the top post is all that is required and the newel post and balustrade comes off in one go.
I would urge the OP to reconsider and either call a stairs carpenter or add progressive thickness of play and line the treads with something you like, carpet, bamboo thingy, hessian bags, buffalo hide, something to cover up your deeds.

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