# Forum More Stuff Go to Whoa!  Multiple levels

## shauck

Been busy working on my friends house recently. She's gone down the owner builder path and has me doing all the chippy stuff.  
Haven't had lots of time to get pics and post details but we're up to flooring stage at the moment and so I thought I better post something before it's completely built.  
This has been a bit more complex (the level changes) than other work I've done and have made a few errors (fixed) along the way. Have had input from various places (including here, thanks), sometimes just to confirm that things are going right. The building inspector is a good guy too and open to discussion.  
My friend Nik (she's the owner builder), has been working alongside with me, most of the way and has been learning new skills and enjoying the process. It's getting to the stage where I can get her to do stuff that helps the job along. Occasionally we've had other hands on to help out, like Kelly (in one of the flooring pics) who picked up screwing down flooring pretty quick and was great on the barrow when pouring the concrete footings (greenkeeper by trade, so used to a barrow).  
The first thing we did was build retaining wall for parking spot/driveway and footing for shed at end of driveway, then the shed of course, so we could store all tools and materials onsite. Have to take pics of shed, then i'll post em. Nik welded together a sheet metal door. It's very cool and the shed has attracted some great positive reactions, locally.  
Anyway, couple of pics for now and will try to keep a bit of an update as we go.

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## Godzilla73

G'day, 
Looks good, keeping up the pics is hard. I too get carried away and before you know it your left trying to explain everything, which reminds me now to get the camera out and take a few of the ensuite reno. 
Keep the pics coming, i love a good owner build.  :Biggrin:

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## Bedford

Good one Su, please keep the pics and story coming.  :Smilie:

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## Bloss

:Wat they said:  - good to see you placed the underfloor insulation too - in Vic will really help. Funny how the little things give great satisfaction too - all the fiddly stuff to get the posts & sub-floor in and when you whack on the flooring it feels as though a lot's been done. Bit like standing the frames and getting the roof on - most work is after the roof and cladding goes on, but the end seems more real once you can actually see the shapes. Nik will love this place: hands-on building with good friends - nuthin' much like it.  :2thumbsup:

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## shauck

Yes. It's going to be a great place for her. Really nice to see, after a break up and niggly separation of assets (previous miners cottage she spent a lot of time fixing up). It shouldn't take too long to get the frames and roof on but the final stages will probably take a while, also money will dictate. I'm trying hard to let go of some of the process (hard for me) so she picks up more skills. She's really enjoying this. I hope that at the end of it, if I need help on another job, she'll be able to work with me. I also love her ipod music collection. It puts most site music to shame.

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## shauck

Ok. So to fill you in, we finished the flooring and started on the framing. Got one of the rooms up just before easter and then on the monday it rained a fair bit. Back at work on tuesday and the flooring was bumpy and had the texture of wheetbix. We've been chasing all that up with the supplier and manufacturer. In the mean time we couldn't stand up any walls so we've been stacking them, waiting for decision on floor. Nearly finished all the external walls and just in time, they delivered us new sheets (on them). Decision was to relay flooring over existing (also on them). We are most of the way through that and will finish it today (Saturday, working... hmm) to try and beat the rain forecast. The sheets had to be sanded to allow for adhesion so we can't let moisture onto them. Have covered with massive tarp, lent by a mate.  
So, once the new flooring is down, we'll be able to get all those frames standing. Working out these frames has been interesting. Every second wall is a rake wall and as  all walls are sitting at different levels, no two walls are the same height. Took a bit of mental gymnastics to work it out. I used CAD drawings for rake walls to get all the lengths and top plate spacing for the studs and this has made cutting and assembling pretty simple.  
I'm pretty sure it'll fit together right except the last wall I'm part way through building, seems to be short by 12mm. Trying to work out how that happened and what to do about it. No rafter will sit on this wall but will sit parallel and next to it, so I'm wondering if it'll matter that much. Perhaps only where it meets the front and back walls perpendicular to it regarding fixing a nail plate to them??? 
Promise some pics, v. soon, later today perhaps.

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## shauck

Finished the floor yesterday. That's that and on to standing up the frames. If rain holds off, will start Monday. Some pics of the shed.

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## goldie1

Great shed! They are never big enough. Is that door just overlapped plate?

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## shauck

Cheers. It's overlapped plate on a frame of square tube steel. Heavy. My idea with this shed was to make it all storage. Not a shed to work in. Just enough room to get at any shelf. You can get a lot of stuff inside for it's size. All the shelving is just made out of offcuts and spare decking. Bit rough but quick and cheap. The timber was from a local guy who mills to order.

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## shauck

Got some walls up today. Yeah.

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## Bloss

:2thumbsup:  Lookin' good! Hope the rain holds off . . . those aren't shed doors that's art!!  :brava:

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## shauck

Nik does some great stuff. She has a website. Check it out here  Iron Made in Daylesford 
I'm wondering how the LVL rafters will hold up if the roof isn't on before they cop rain. Can they manage?  
New floor (after fair bit of rain) seems a lot better than first. Geez, it feels solid to walk on.  
One of the walls not up yet has a massive oversized lintel. This wall is going to have doors that slide between walls. I stupidly thought the lintel had to go the distance of the opening plus the distance the doors slid but when putting it all together, realised that it wasn't necessary. Anyway, you'll see that when it all goes together. It's a bloody heavy wall now, damn!

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## stevoh741

looking good

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## Bloss

> Nik does some great stuff. She has a website. Check it out here  Iron Made in Daylesford

   Yep - Nik does some great stuff.  :2thumbsup:

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## shauck

All the external walls are up and rafters on the bedrooms. We'll be cutting the rafters for the main part of the house. They're 240x45 LVLs, 7.6m long and the highest wall is 3.6m high so we decided to get a crane  to lift them into place rather than extra hands. Figured it would be a  lot faster and less stressful. We did stand the two front walls up with a  crane as they (especially the one with the stupidly oversized lintel -  my fault) were pretty top heavy and one couldn't be stood up without  manouvering it on an angle as it was lifted. We tried but as we walked  the wall up, the bottom plate lifted off the ground and all the weight  was above and behind our heads. We also used the crane to lift a couple  of big, double glazed windows up onto the floor. Saves us trying to get  them in later.

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## Bloss

Nice work Su - you & Nik must be pleased - standing the frame always allows you to imagine the end better. That lintel sure ain't going anywhere!  :Wink:

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## shauck

Cheers Bloss. No, it aint goin' nowhere. I suppose if she ever wanted to, she could knock out some studs and put bifolds or something in there for a big opening.  
Finished the rafters on the 2nd bedroom and have cut more than half the main room's rafters. I'm doing them with a circ saw straight off the pile and moving them to a new pile outside the building so the crane can reach them. Cut the bedroom rafters inside the building with the drop saw and rollers but these are just too heavy for so much manual handling. Kept having to stop and cover up then start again due to rain. Hate those sort of days where it rains for 5-10 minutes every half hour or so.  
All the roofing material - corri, gutters, flashing, etc have been ordered. Found what seems a good place for price. All up about $2,500 for about 120sqm roof. Looking forward to that.  
Will take more pics when all the rafters are on.

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## goldie1

Su I was interested in the choice of timber stumps and the pros and cons of timber v concrete. I understood from 
your earlier set out thread you were using concrete ?

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## shauck

> Su I was interested in the choice of timber stumps and the pros and cons of timber v concrete. I understood from 
> your earlier set out thread you were using concrete ?

  Yes Goldie, the plans did initially have concrete stumps but I talked Nik into timber stumps. If you set them in concrete and try to get them at the right height straight off, they may sink a bit and you'd have to pack. With timber, we cut them longer and set them in position and I cut them level the next day, using dumpy on each stump to mark the correct height. It worked really well. Also, I figured that it's easier to attach to timber such as cross bracing (some of the stumps are high), bearers, enclosing the subfloor, etc. I guess I just prefer timber. If it was feasible to set concrete stumps in place using bearers and pour concrete after, that would be ok. In this case, without pumping the concrete to each hole (expensive), it would mean pushing a barrow up hill by entering at the end of each bearer run. There was no way to situate the concrete truck at the high end. I don't think one way is better than the other. I think it's a case by case decision. Another thing to think about with concrete stumps, they come in sizes and on a sloping block with 4 level changes, if you were to set them all at the correct heights, you would have to think through the lengths and make sure holes are dug to correct depth for all the varying sizes. Painful for my head.

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## goldie1

Thanks Su makes sense, we don't get  much of that round here usually brick piers. I assume the stumps are treated against termites?

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## shauck

No, not treated. They are naturally termite resistant. Callitris glaucophylla. It's pretty commonly available/used timber for posts and stumps and subframing, even decking. A bit cheaper than redgum. As I said earlier tho, it makes me break out in a rash. Last time, blisters between my fingers even. I don't know how common that is tho.

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## goldie1

Ah   callitris glaucophyll ( northern cypress I looked it up ) never to old to learn something new thanks

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## shauck

> Ah   callitris glaucophyll ( northern cypress I looked it up ) never to old to learn something new thanks

  My pleasure. All of what I know about carpentry, building, has been in the last 4-5 years and I'm 43. Used to being the learner.  
Got the rest of the rafters up. Bit of a hiccup in the morning then got stuck into it in the afternoon. Knocked them over in 2 1/4 hours. Pretty happy bout that. Started out a bit wary of getting knocked off the scaffold by a flying rafter (used a crane) and then we got into a groove. Now it's looking real nice. Feels like a great space inside. Nik is grinning.

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## Gaza

bloody nice job, 
what type of cladding is going on? 
any fancy fascia detail ?

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## shauck

> bloody nice job, 
> what type of cladding is going on? 
> any fancy fascia detail ?

  Cheers Gaza. The cladding is 6mm cement sheet. It will be done with the joins seal jointed most likely, so no timber/pvc jointing. The corners will be done with some metal angle.  
Nik wants to paint the house black. I warned her about the heat in summer but in the end it's her decision. Daylesford is about 3 degrees cooler than Melbourne. Winter here is pretty frosty and we get very occasional snowfall.  
With the fascia, we have to use a fire rated product so we decided, again for economy, to use 6mm cement sheet. Hardwood would cost a small fortune.  
Still trying to visualise how would be best to approach the overhangs on the bedrooms at the rake walls where at the moment the battens overhang 300mm. At the rafter ends (240mm), the cement sheet has plenty of attachment. Could frame out beneath the battens to give attachment for fascia. We may just decide to cut the battens back and have no overhang on these edges. Any ideas, opinions?  The eaves will be attached directly to underside of rafters.

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## shauck

> Still trying to visualise how would be best to approach the overhangs on the bedrooms at the rake walls where at the moment the battens overhang 300mm. At the rafter ends (240mm), the cement sheet has plenty of attachment. Could frame out beneath the battens to give attachment for fascia. We may just decide to cut the battens back and have no overhang on these edges. Any ideas, opinions?  The eaves will be attached directly to underside of rafters.

  I did cut the battens back yesterday. We both think it will look much better and will also mean less stuffing about.  
The plumber reckons not to plaster directly to the rafters as he's known of some where the screws pop out. I asked in the plastering section a while ago and it hadn't been mentioned there. I figure if a screw pops out, just put one in next to it and remove the screw. The adhesive is doing all the work. I'd like to take advantage of the fact the rafters are 450 spacing and a plaster lift can work on this plane whereas if there are battens then the plasterboard will have to run with the rake and a lift won't work/tilt that way.

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## Bloss

Lookin' good! As a plasterer your plumber makes a good plumber . . .  :Wink:  no reason why you can't attache direct the rafters at all - the adhesive is the primary fixing and screws won't 'pop' unless the adhesive fails - in which case you have some bigger problems.

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## Gaza

> Cheers Gaza. The cladding is 6mm cement sheet. It will be done with the joins seal jointed most likely, so no timber/pvc jointing. The corners will be done with some metal angle.  
> .

  as in set & sanded or just butted & skia flex, maybe be better of using blue baord or one of new sycon claddings from james hardie, 
cheap nice detail for corners is to get colur bond angles bent up or buy alumium.

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## intertd6

You need to get a copy ( even an old one ) of AS1684 which has drawings of floor, wall frames & roof frame systems, you are making a few simple mistakes, like having your rafters not in line with the external face of the walls, good for sheeting your ceilings but adding a lot of work externally on scaffold, you still could move them if its not too late. You can also get a nice eaves overhang just with roof battens alone, for instance you can have a 1m overhang with 75 x 50 hwd battens. I am wondering how you can delete an eaves overhang without effecting the energy efficiency rating of the structure, unless you don't have the need to meet any rating in your state. 
regards inter

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## shauck

Bloss, I'm ignoring the plumber. Bit worried that he says he's going to sit the bathtub on bricks rather than bed with cement. I don't really have anything to do with the bathroom fitout but it's in my nature to go through everything and make sure Nik doesn't end up with a disaster. I keep giving her the info I find and hopefully she'll take it on.  
Inter, I have recent edition of AS1684. I chose to sit the end rafters next to the plates. (I've even been told to do it this way in the past on another job). Partly to fix plaster to but mostly other reasons. All I have to do is pack out 90mm with offcuts to get them flush with the external walls. Getting used to scaffold heights. More concerned with sheeting the front wall really because that will put the scaffold on the ground and its all over the place at the moment. Can't move it about without potentially tipping. That ground will have to be leveled out first and a good solid surface put down.  
The batten overhangs, were a possible addition to the roof and were not on the original plans so will not effect the energy rating. Nik leaves decisions to the last minute sometimes, so I put them in just in case and then had to stuff about again to get rid of them. The rafter ends, obviously will all overhang. The windows will have awnings/shutters (partly for fire rating purposes) which will help too. 
The building inspector came yesterday and he passed everything. I left one wall unbraced to discuss with him first, so that is sorted now. Says he won't be back till the deck stump holes then when house is finished. He trusts that we will quickly get the internal wall of laundry toilet and bathroom in and braced to lessen the width of the main area.

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## Bloss

I've seen plumbers use blocks or bricks as a base and then use mortar bed on top when there is a big gap. Have a read of the install instructions for the particular brand of bath - they do vary - most now are online. Some do not have anything underneath.

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## shauck

Cheers Bloss.  
Gaza, the idea is that sheets will be left with a 3mm gap and sealant fills the gap and is flush with the edges. Nik is after a no joint appearance and a painted surface, not render or texture. I"m a little uncertain just yet, which is the right product. I think, from what I can determine, Panelclad (James Hardie) is one. Is this right? The sheets would have to not have a recessed edge for this application. Any other choices in 6mm thick 900mm wide sheets that can be done this way?  So far the above mentioned is what I've come up with. Seems simpler method than recessed edges, filled and sanded. Personally, I would use trim to give detail. You mention blueboard, is this useable in this way? Always, I have to take cost into consideration.

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## r3nov8or

Taking a look at the JH PanelClad install guide, joint sealant is not one of the methods described for the product. If you went down that path (apart from potential warranty issues), it would be difficult to achieve a finish where the joints were never noticable. If a fine but noticable line is OK by Nik, all good.  
This (noticable joins) is (unfortunately) also often the case with rendered blueboard on broad expansive surfaces as glancing light, especailly early and late in the day, may (quite likely) reveal even the slightest imperfections in jointing and rendering. And even with the slighest movement, over time, slight joint cracking may be disappointing.  
Maybe JH EasyLap is an option, but at 8.5mm will probably be more expensive.

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## Gaza

> Cheers Bloss.  
> Gaza, the idea is that sheets will be left with a 3mm gap and sealant fills the gap and is flush with the edges. Nik is after a no joint appearance and a painted surface, not render or texture. I"m a little uncertain just yet, which is the right product. I think, from what I can determine, Panelclad (James Hardie) is one. Is this right? The sheets would have to not have a recessed edge for this application. Any other choices in 6mm thick 900mm wide sheets that can be done this way?  So far the above mentioned is what I've come up with. Seems simpler method than recessed edges, filled and sanded. Personally, I would use trim to give detail. You mention blueboard, is this useable in this way? Always, I have to take cost into consideration.

  
i am 100% sure that you can not use 6mm FC sheet with a silcone joint,  
this detail is done with 9mm commerical CFC but you use a backing strip.  
for a seemless look you can blue board set & sand then just paint not texture paint. 
easy lap blue board is another option as its only a small v joint between sheets so you will only need to set the nail holes. 
do a drawing and email over to hardis, you will need to work it out before you put the windows in

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## shauck

The info on jointing below is from the James Hardie brochure and on the header page it says .... 
EXTERNAL CLADDING
PRIMELINE® WEATHERBOARDS, HARDIPLANK® CLADDING, PANELCLAD® SHEETS AND HARDIFLEX® SHEETS 
So, as no texture or patterned surface is wanted definitely not Panelclad then. I'm not really familiar with the products but from what I can gather, Hardiflex sheets seem the right choice here as they are square edged, flat, paintable sheets. 
Gaza, these are 6mm sheets and they, according to the brochure, can be sealed jointed. A bond breaker tape is used which I suppose is what you call backing strip?  
3.5 JOINTING AND CORNERS  
3.5.1 General 
A number of options are available for jointing sheets and corners. 
3.5.2 Vertical joints
For vertical joints, a timber batten can be planted over the abutting panels. Refer to Figure 6. 
Alternatively, use a PVC straight jointer for HardiFlex sheets and PanelClad Stucco sheets. Refer to Figure 7.  *Refer to Clause 2.3.2 (below) for more information on sealant jointing.* 
When joining PanelClad TextureLine sheets, use the special TextureLine PVC straight joint. Refer to Figure 8.  *HardiFlex and PanelClad Stucco sheets can also be jointed by placing a bond breaker tape to jointing studs and fixing panels to studs leaving a minimum 3mm gap between edges and filling with James Hardie joint sealant.*   *2.3.2 Sealant jointing*
Sealant jointing can be used to joint sheets, weatherboards and planks.
When filling joints with sealant, cut the nozzle of the cartridge to suit the specified gap between the sheets, weatherboards and planks. Mask the edges with easily removable masking tape. Then apply the sealant in an upward motion, pushing the sealant into the gap to fill it. Carry this operation out slowly to ensure the sealant completely fills the gap and bonds to the edges of the cladding. Run a spatula over the joint, carefully wiping away the excess sealant. Carefully remove the masking tape immediately after you complete the sealant application.

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## r3nov8or

We must be looking at different documents, because I can't find this statement in the one I'm looking at "*HardiFlex and PanelClad Stucco sheets can also be jointed by placing a  bond breaker tape to jointing studs and fixing panels to studs leaving a  minimum 3mm gap between edges and filling with James Hardie joint  sealant.*" 
I'm looking at http://www.jameshardie.com.au/produc...ion+Jan+12.pdf

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## shauck

Yes, a different document. Found on this website, click on Installation Manual. HardiFlex® sheets - CSP Cement Sheet Products

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## ringtail

Looking excellent shauck. Ive had no drama using a silicon joint with hardiflex 6 mm. It can be a massive PITA though if the prep is not right. You need to run gaffa tape or similiar down each sheet edge, fill the joint, trowel it off and remove the tape. Without the tape you will have crap everywhere and forever be trying to trim the joint with a knife or blade and clean crap off the sheets. I would go a wider gap too, 6 - 8 mm so you can get a good bead in there. Ive found a small bead can shrink and pull away from the sheet edges.

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## r3nov8or

> Yes, a different document. Found on this website, click on Installation Manual. HardiFlex® sheets - CSP Cement Sheet Products

  I see that doc is dated Sep 2005, whereas the one I found is Jan 2012. I'd give them a call just to make sure it's still a recommended method.

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## shauck

R3nov8or, the PDF you have, does actually say in section 3, Refer to Clause 2.3.2 for more information on sealant jointing. That would seem to me that it is a useable method. 
Ringtail, did you use a bond breaker tape on the stud? It's purpose seems to be to stop a three way adhesion.  
Did you use a particular sealant? Did you use a primer first? Have been  reading up on various sikaflex products. Seems that primer is required  for porous surfaces such as hardiflex. Does the protective tape need to  be in place to stop primer getting on the face of the cement sheets? I  figured I'd set the masking tape in place before priming anyway so that  there's not a mad rush to get it all ready in time for the sealant. 
Overall do you think this method (sealant joint) is easier and/or cheaper in the long run compared to set and sanding? The sealant joint seems to me to require more prep but perhaps less skill to achieve a good finish.  
Keep in mind that the front walls are up to 3.6m high and over 1m off the ground. The site is sloping in two directions and uneven so scaffolding being easily moved along the wall is only going to be likely if the ground is leveled off a fair bit.

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## Gaza

James Hardie make there own sealant no primer required

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## shauck

> James Hardie make there own sealant no primer required

  Thanks Gaza. Will check it out.

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## ringtail

x 2 with Gaza. Right or wrong, I just used some plastic damp course tacked onto the studs at the sheet joins then filled er' up.  I'm not a fan of sanding and setting joints. Every house bar none that Ive seen/worked on has got visable joints due to fatigue/ settlement etc... It takes a few years but it will happen for sure. The house next door is 5 years old and is starting to show the signs. Sure, we are on clay and have had a lot of rain but this house was built to the highest standard I have ever seen. If you want it simple and no fuss use cover strips and make them a feature.

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## r3nov8or

> R3nov8or, the PDF you have, does actually say in section 3, Refer to Clause 2.3.2 for more information on sealant jointing. That would seem to me that it is a useable method.

   So it does! All good then. 
If you want to reduce the chance of joint cracks and are happy enough with a seeing the flat bead of the flexible joints then I would go with this method.  
I have used the joint masking method in bathrooms using Lamipanel and it  works well. Up high off the ground will be more of a challenge which ever method you use. I would say you'll be up the ladder/scaff less using the sealant joint method.

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## Bloss

> x 2 with Gaza. Right or wrong, I just used some plastic damp course tacked onto the studs at the sheet joins then filled er' up.  I'm not a fan of sanding and setting joints. Every house bar none that Ive seen/worked on has got visable joints due to fatigue/ settlement etc... It takes a few years but it will happen for sure. The house next door is 5 years old and is starting to show the signs. Sure, we are on clay and have had a lot of rain but this house was built to the highest standard I have ever seen. If you want it simple and no fuss use cover strips and make them a feature.

   :Wat they said:  Although I reckon the sealant looks fine even when there has been movement - so long as it retains structural integrity - and that's good prep and application.

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## Gaza

I would be putting extra noggins in so that all sheet edges where supported. 
The bond breaker is a tape that JH sell. 
If I was doing this job I would subby out the Silcone to a joint sealer for a few bucks a meter they do a better job and are quicker so ends up cheaper. 
You will need to use a z flashing at base of sheets that goes behind sarking

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## intertd6

The ratios of your sealant joint are destined to fail ( 3mm wide & 4.5mm, 6mm or 9mm deep), a correct sealant joint should be 2/3 as deep as it is wide with a bond break at the rear, for a 3mm wide joint the depth of the sealant should be only 2mm.
regards inter

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## r3nov8or

> The ratios of your sealant joint are destined to fail ( 3mm wide & 4.5mm, 6mm or 9mm deep), a correct sealant joint should be 2/3 as deep as it is wide with a bond break at the rear, for a 3mm wide joint the depth of the sealant should be only 2mm.
> regards inter

  If you leave a 9mm gap you will be hard pressed to achieve the recommended edge distance and still get good quality fixing to a 45 mm stud

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## intertd6

for a 9mm wide sealant joint, the depth of the sealant should be 6mm.
regards inter

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## shauck

Cheers guys. 
Gaza, yes will have to put in some extra noggings where required. Can't subby out the work as Nik says she's going to do it herself. Save bucks. Says she'll start on the back wall to get practice. Has done a tiny bit of plastering so....we'll see, I guess.  
If you read Sikaflex 11FC PDF, it states that any joint less than 12mm wide should have a depth to width ratio of 1:1. That would mean, for a 6mm sheet, a 6mm gap would be correct.  
Haven't found a PDF for James Hardie joint sealant yet. 
Anyway, believe it or not, Nik now wants to use blueboard (Harditex). I don't think this is wise considering it is more likely to keep you up a ladder or on a scaffold attempting skilled finishes. I worry about the finish. It's also going to be painted black so will show up everything.  
Also, sheets horizontally joined on the taller walls will have to have the edges ground, on site. Dust, without proper extraction is not cool so some form of extraction unit will be needed.  
The one benefit is that Harditex comes in longer sheets (2.7 and 3.0), whereas the Hardiflex 6mm only comes in 2.4 At least some of the walls won't need horizontal joins then.  
Her main reason is that nails will be hidden by the set joint. (What about the other nails?) I would have thought all nails being set flush, get set and sanded? 
I'm going slowly insane with this. Also, I hate high scaffold work on less than perfect ground. Done it before (house painting) and it really isn't fun.

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## r3nov8or

Face nailing is usually not a problem for Harditex because it's made to be fully rendered over. If not rendering you'll be doing a lot of work trying to get perfect joints, just to leave many nails only painted, but you _could_ skim over them I guess. As mentioned earlier, glancing light will show up any imperfections, especially if the building is placed on the site to follow the sun.

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## intertd6

You cant get better than the manufacturers installation instructions for your joints which are outside standard industry practice. For blueboard if your walls are over 6m in length then you will have to have a big control joint which might throw the smooth look out a bit, I thought I could get away without one on a 6.6m wide panel, but it cracked & had to be rectified.
regards inter

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## shauck

I said to Nik, best would be to use textured paint rather than just ordinary paint. Hopefully that's what she'll do.  
There will be an expansion joint on the front and back wall, about halfway along. From what I can gather, this doesn't get coated with render but what about if not rendering? Would you paint over the joint? If not painted over, can you get a black product?  
With the Z flashing, is there an off the shelf, fire-rated product? The subfloor will be sheeted with metal. Not sure of the thickness, that's Nik's dept, but I don't think it'll be very thick.

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## r3nov8or

Just scanning, I can't find mention of expansion/control joints in the linked documents. I'm sure it was there in the early '00s, and there was a picture an all...

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## Bloss

> I said to Nik, best would be to use textured paint rather than just ordinary paint. Hopefully that's what she'll do.

    She should . . .

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## shauck

The roofing blanket, roofing iron and all the flashing are onsite ready for installing today. There'll be four of us doing this, me as a labourer along with the plumbers. Hoping it goes pretty well.  
Got the internal walls of the bathroom, toilet, laundry and kitchen done over the last couple of days. A few changes made along the way as Nik decided the width of the bathroom, toilet, laundry was too small (2m). We stole a little from the kitchen/dining room (420mm) which made all the difference.  
Nik has also decided to forget about the bath she bought and is now looking at freestanding baths. This is good because the bath she has, isn't really suitable for shower use. Also considering having the shower rose coming out of the ceiling, maybe even an exposed system if that exists.  
R3nov8or, I'm jumping from one product to another, sorry. The Harditex PDF mentions control joints and has a diagram (figure 18). It shows a double stud with flashing, vapour permeable membrane then 6mm gap, bond breaker tape and sealant in gap. The "textured coating" doesn't cover the joint. I'm assuming this means paint as well? 
Just a mention on using CAD drawing program to work out rake walls. I've been doing this all along and it's been really great. Works out every stud length, top plate length and spacing of studs along top plate. Takes a bit to draw them up but I think it's worth it.

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## r3nov8or

> ...
> R3nov8or, I'm jumping from one product to another, sorry. The Harditex PDF mentions control joints and has a diagram (figure 18). It shows a double stud with flashing, vapour permeable membrane then 6mm gap, bond breaker tape and sealant in gap. The "textured coating" doesn't cover the joint. I'm assuming this means paint as well?
>  ....

  Glad you found it. I'm obviously not looking as hard as I would if it was my project  :Smilie:  
 If you google black sealant/silicone/sikaflex you'll see types at auto outlets. Not sure if appropriate for this application. I'm sure you'd check. If you use a black bond breaker tape and clear silicone it could be black "enough" (maybe?). I reckon you'll also find a roofing silicone to match the darkest colorbond (again, check for suitability).

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## shauck

The roof went on without any problem. Finished early yesterday. Pity you can't really see the roof from anywhere. It's pretty high up.  
After all the too-ing and fro-ing, Nik finally decided on hardiflex and sealant joint method. All the sheets are ordered and will be here Monday or Tuesday. It's her birthday today, so a day off. We went with the James Hardie sealant in the end, thanks Gaza, no primer required.  
From here on there's not much left for me to do. Nik wants to tackle a fair bit of the rest. I'll be helping her get a start on cladding and get the fascia and eaves on and the windows in. Some of the windows are running late and won't be here for 5 weeks so will try to co-ordinate that with whatever I'm doing at the time.  
Have to try and get another project going now.  
I'll take some pics later today.

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## Bloss

Are we there yet? Are we there yet? more pics . . .

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## shauck

Sorry. Things slowed down a bit. Had a week of time out then mostly doing bits n pieces. Fascia, some sarking (Nik's mostly doing that), some flashing and two of the windows in. I'll put a couple more windows in on Monday and put the Z flashing on, then can clad the walls that have windows. I'll get that started and when Nik feels she's got the hang of it, she'll finish that off. When the rest of the windows arrive (weeks away still), I'll put those in. Also had to make two window opening bigger. The window dimensions given on the plan were wrong. That sucked. The plan to not have the joins in the cement sheet covered has been changed. Nik sees how hard it is to get a neat look and will now be using 50mm wide flat steel. We'll still be doing the sealant joint method but covering the joints.

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## ringtail

Yep it is a PITA to neatly do the joins. I'd probably go with 50 mm ally flatbar though ( rust and rust stains) and even get it powder coated for good contrast if a feature is needed

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## r3nov8or

I was once a real dill and ordered a 150mm (H) window for a 105mm space, and with no room to move. Was really lucky though, the window maker made me another without extra cost and said someone else will always ask for a 150mm window so no worries. Diamond Windows in Sth Geelong. Great service.  
You are doing the right thing with the covering over the joins. Saves the inevitable disspointment of cracked render hear and there. I think it also suits the bush setting just fine.

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## shauck

Good suppliers are great when you find them. We ordered tin for the roof and both of us had sat down to work out the lengths. BOTH of us together, forgot the overhangs!  :Doh: The tin turned up.... UH OH. The supplier took the tin back and replaced with correct lengths and only charged 10% (a few  
hundred dollars) to remedy the situation. Pretty good, I think.  
I'm really glad about covering the joins. For anyone else thinking of this. Consider these things. You need a 6mm gap between the sheets. The nail/clout needs to be 12mm from sheet edge. You tape the sheet edge and fill with sealant, then scrape off excess. Problem is, unless you are perfect, some of the clouts heads will not be perfectly flush with the sheet and will get in the way as you scrape. Also, any joints scribed will have raised edges unless you sand them really well (dust).  
Nik bought a blade for her cheapy circ saw and it's a pity we didn't get one for my (bigger) makita instead. Her saw is s**t.

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## Gaza

Weathering corten would be great for joints as it would rust away to a nice finish. 
Its not as simple as it seems some times, a pro Silcone guy can do neat joints without tapping off.

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## shauck

She says she'll paint the steel. It'll be 50mm wide flat bar.

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## shauck

Sorry, still haven't taken pics yet. Promise I will.  
Friday, went to install two windows..... Both openings wrong size. That makes it 4 out of 4. Thankfully the rest of the windows were ordered to plan size.  
I'm starting to think Nik did not measure the windows but just relied on the info she was told by someone else.  
Anyway, one was an easy fix. Cut out the sill and lower it.  
The other however, I cursed, a lot (loudly). The window is way bigger in width than the opening by 3-400mm! Load bearing wall! Stupidly tall wall, high off the ground. Lintel will have to be a bit bigger in dimensions as well as length.
Awesome  :Doh:  
Hoped to do this without propping the wall and the only way I can see is to put a new and bigger lintel in before cutting any studs out. Could I put the lintel down a bit from the original, ideally avoiding saw cutting through any nails? Any other ideas? Acrow props would have to be pretty long! Would be best if work can be done from inside, too.  
ARRGH!!!

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## r3nov8or

Lintels don't have to be immediately below the top plate. 
Leave the original lintel in place. 
Over the window opening, lower down, check out the studs from the inside (max 45mm deep) as wide as you need and add the new lintel.

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## shauck

Cheers. That seems like the simplest option. I've calmed down a bit now. It's bothering me a lot less. 
I have a piece of 140x45 F17 SHWD on site. I'd like to use it if it's good to do so.  
The span tables (F17 SHWD) put this calculation in the 4500 RLW section and the 600 rafter spacing column  *(max span of 2200)* 
Being that RLW is 3700, its half way between that and the 3000 RLW column. *(max span 2500)* 
To add to that the rafter spacings are 450, which is a fair bit less than the 600  
The opening is going to be 2400-ish. 
What do you think?

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## r3nov8or

I ran it through Timber Solutions so I could input 450 rafter centres and your RLW of 3700. The only difference in these two attached is the weight of roofing and ceiling materials. For 30 kg/m2 you are OK, but not for 40 kg/m2.    (P.S. I don't know why Timber Solutions also specifies continuous span for lintels?...)

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## shauck

Ah. Thank you. Much appreciated. I wish they would put out a Mac version.

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## Bloss

ahh, out in the shed fixing a table so already got your answer by the time I saw the question! 
As to Windows products - all Intel Macs can run Windows so unless yours is a really old Mac that's one way of doing it. They do it quite well too. You need to have plenty of RAM to work best, but that's cheap enough nowadays. Windows on a Mac - Apple Store (Australia) and The best way to run Windows on your Mac | Macworld  
But really given the low cost of a decent PC today I'd just look at getting one if you really reckon you need software - you probably don't - a 'nice to have' rather than a necessity. And the real cost for all is the licensed copy of any software not the HW and that adds up quickly.

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## Uncle Bob

> ahh, out in the shed fixing a table so already got your answer by the time I saw the question! 
> As to Windows products - all Intel Macs can run Windows so unless yours is a really old Mac that's one way of doing it. They do it quite well too. You need to have plenty of RAM to work best, but that's cheap enough nowadays. Windows on a Mac - Apple Store (Australia) and The best way to run Windows on your Mac | Macworld  
> But really given the low cost of a decent PC today I'd just look at getting one if you really reckon you need software - you probably don't - a 'nice to have' rather than a necessity. And the real cost for all is the licensed copy of any software not the HW and that adds up quickly.

  It is possible to do the opposite too as I've done it, that is run OSX on a PC. Google Hackintosh for details  :2thumbsup:

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## shauck

Yeah, it's not a necessitiy. Don't really want to put PC on my Mac. Besides, it's nice to ask others questions sometimes.

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## Bloss

> It is possible to do the opposite too as I've done it, that is run OSX on a PC. Google Hackintosh for details

  But why . . . .  :Biggrin:

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## Uncle Bob

> But why . . . .

  A few reasons. 
PC's are cheaper  :Wink: 
It's good to try out OSX before slapping down an exorbitant amount of money on a Mac.
And it's handy for work related stuff that needs to be tested on a Mac (when you don't have one). 
Being part of a team that manages a large Windows fleet, I can say that Mac's (and their users) are a PITA in a Microsoft environment (~1900 PC's and 100 PITA Macs  :Smilie:  ).

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## Bloss

> A few reasons. 
> 1. PC's are cheaper 
> 2. It's good to try out OSX before slapping down an exorbitant amount of money on a Mac.
> 3. And it's handy for work related stuff that needs to be tested on a Mac (when you don't have one). 
> 4. Being part of a team that manages a large Windows fleet, I can say that Mac's (and their users) are a PITA in a Microsoft environment (~1900 PC's and 100 PITA Macs  ).

  Should be in debates area eh!  :Wink:  
1. That's cause they are _cheap_ . . . highest cost is the training & supporting the wetware using them not HW . . . HW & SW is only around 15% of lifetime costs.
2. Who gives  cr*p about what's underneath - it what it does, how well and how easy it lest me do what _I_ want to do that counts - BTW compared to what? - like for like Tier 1 with same SW & HW the difference is SFA. Lifetime cost of a Mac (because of - see 1.) way lower.
3. a techy issue not an end-user (remember them - their needs pay tech supports wages . . .)
4. That's just plain old Win vs Mac OS wars prejudice - smart people use Macs because they are the best, everyone else uses the rest. 
I could go on, but it's like the climate change debate - evidence doesn't matter, just beliefs . . .  :Frown:

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## shauck

I've been a PC user and abuser. You can really mess with PCs if you want to and get your grubby little, inquisitive  hands all over the internal workings. This means to me, they are easily stuffed up by accident, even if you're not meaning to.  
MACs are much harder to mess with. They are simple, intuitive and pretty tamper proof in comparison.  
I've not thought them expensive. I like what I get for my money.  
No virus issues/software required.

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## ringtail

Enough of this egghead nonsense, back to building. :Biggrin:

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## r3nov8or

Just one more...   

> ...No virus issues/software required.

  Well, almost none... Mac 'Flashback' virus stealing $10,000 a day 
Just the beginning?

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## Bloss

> Enough of this egghead nonsense, back to building.

  All for that . . . .

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## shauck

Sorry for such a long delay. 
Have been on and off the site over the last while. A while back Nik decided she would try to do as much of the rest as she could and get a friend to help her so she could keep labour cost down. Not much got done for a while and without me there all the time, the order of things got a bit skewed. During that time, I chased up some future work which I hope to start on at some time in the future. Then Nik seemed to change her mind (has me back on site). Getting a bit frustrated with the disorganisation but working thru it as best I can. Prefer to be the one making all the work flow decisions as she doesn't always get the order of things. 
Anyway enough of that. 
Some of the stuff that's been done recently. 
Fixed that window opening and as you'll see from the pics, it was a really bad decision to go with the exisisting window. It is way out of proportion to that wall and in my opinion, ruins the look of the house. A new window would have cost her about 900 bucks. To fix the opening cost her about 250 bucks. So to save 650 bucks....      
Got 4 windows in, all of which were not the size stated on plan :Doh:  and waiting for all the rest that are on order. Should be here soon.  
Got the fascia and some of the cement sheet on so the plumber could flash some of the roof.  
Nik and her mate did the sisalation. 
The back of the house has had some small trees removed and dirt removed so that water wont sit there. It's very narrow there so I'm pleased these shrubby annoyances are gone.  
I built the internal walls, except for the little alcove/office that is in the lounge and tucks into the front bedroom. Nik did this wall herself, cool.     
Nik put in a cavity slider (toilet to bathroom) but it's not totally finished. I've not done them before so I haven't been able to check it. I'll talk to a local chippy who pops in from time to time and get him to run thru it with me. There's still another cavity slider to go in from laundry to toilet 
Started putting in the subfloor steel sheets and Z flashing above, ready to clad walls. Some sections where the deck and front porch are won't need it until they're built.    
I've done the setouts for deck and porch and got the stumps in. Will cut them to height and get the bearers and joists done tomorrow.  
When I'm not working here, I'm still getting a bit done at my place and still doing stuff for previous job/clients who just keep adding to the list.  
Juggling is a skill I'm still trying to perfect.

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## sundancewfs

Outrageous! look at all that sawdust laying around in the second last picture. What a messy building site!  :Biggrin:

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## shauck

> Outrageous! look at all that sawdust laying around in the second last picture. What a messy building site!

  Aww, don't. I'm a virgo and even that little bit of mess bugs me. I've sort of stopped doing the full on clean ups and left that to Nik.  
Had a lot planned for yesterday and managed to get all the tops of posts cut to height and bearers and joists fixed in place for the deck and the front porch. Then off to another job to paint tiles. I managed to get out of it.  I've never been much good at starting something late in the day. Will do that this morning instead. Besides, it's raining now and that's fine for inside work.  
Now that there's a porch area (will stick some yellow tongue on temporarily) Getting the aluminium framed door/side window frame in will be easier. That's the next thing on her list. Never fitted one of these before so will be reading the instructions carefully. Much prefer hands on instruction but should be okay.  
Before I can put the frame in Nik will have to have the wall ready, insulation, sisalation, flashing, ready for cement sheet to go on. So, not sure when, maybe Thursday. Need to get that wall all done in the one day. It has ply bracing on the inside so insulation has to go in so it has to get cladded to keep water off the insulation.

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## shauck

Bit more progress recently. The rest of the windows are in, which is a story in itself. Suffice to say, not happy with supplier. So much not right about them. We decided to keep them anyway and work around the problems. Not made to specs (90mm stud wall, 6mm cement sheet cladding). I wont rant about it. There are solutions. 
 Also got the front door/window aluminium frame in place. Still needs flashing. Put together back door frame/flashed as well. Just one straggler window to get in along back wall (reveals sent unattached and wrong size, also no lock/latch at all - just a small thing compared to the rest of the list of window complaints - sorry, almost a rant). 
Started cladding walls that are ready (flashed windows, steel to subframe, Z flashing in place, wall edge flashing, bond breaker tape on joins, etc). Started at the back of house to give everyone (me included) a chance to get the hang of it without it being seen that often. Started out a bit slow but expect it to move along at faster pace. The bond breaker tape and sealant joint method will still be used but a steel cover strap will go over the joins.  
Day off today due to weather so I'll go build a new dog house. Try to make it look like a mini, modern skillion roofed house.

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## r3nov8or

It's coming along. What cladding product is that?

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## shauck

> It's coming along. What cladding product is that?

  It's Hardiflex.   
I got well into (nearly finished) the dog kennel yesterday (internal lining with cement sheet) and my hands are dry and rough as. I think it's from the cement sheet. reckon I'll get some thin gloves.  
Not happy with the design completely so I think I'll create a back overhang (recut the roof) to fix the problem.  
Anyway couple of pics for downsized "Go to whoa"   side frames   Frame sitting on subfloor but not attached (will do that when I move it to site).    Internal lining, cement sheet. Ignore that crooked sub floor. It's not attached to kennel.   Insulation.   Sisalation, including extra layer under and over roof insulation.  Mostly finished but will tackle some mistakes (front edge flashing to trim is uneven) today and get it a bit better. Also finish trim around doorway. Floor is yellow tongue. Will come up with a way to flash the subfloor.  
This was fun.

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## Bedford

Wow, does he get room service too?  :Biggrin:

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## shauck

> Wow, does he get room service too?

   :Biggrin:  
She.  
I was tossing up the idea of putting a gutter on the back and a downpipe that fills the dog's water bowl.... 
I had to build something a bit special because Tanya came home the other day with a dodgy pine lining (floor, walls and roof) fiasco that I shook my head at. I had to beat that.

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## shauck

All ready to go! Will put it somewhere tomorrow. I reckon I'd sleep in it if I could fit.

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## goldie1

Needs a ramp up to the roof so she can get up there and look down on the world  :Biggrin:

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## shauck

> Needs a ramp up to the roof so she can get up there and look down on the world

   :Biggrin:  
With deck chair and cocktails after 7pm

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## Bloss

> With deck chair and cocktails after 7pm

  And for the dog too . . .  :Wink:

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## intertd6

Just a question, back a few photos, how are you maintaining termite protection where the under floor level steel sheeting bridges the stump pier caps.
regards inter

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## shauck

That's a good question. Wouldn't they be seen with inspection? They would have to leave the stumps to travel past the steel. Same as travelling past the ant cap. That's where you would look. I know, hard to do, crawling in under there, fully enclosed subfloor. The BAL rating dictates a fully enclosed subfloor with no gap larger than 3mm. In their grand wisdom, they rate fire issues higher than termite issues I guess.

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## Bloss

With termites the only real protection' is inspection, inspection, inspection. Unfortunately just as we tend to learn about backing up our hard drive after a crash, we tend to do termite inspections after we find their damage!  :Frown:  It is not hard to learn what to look for to DIY inspections and do them thoroughly at least once a year (and more in high incidence areas), but we tend to just let them lapse - and complacency is reinforced by notions that we have 'termite-proofed'. I am a fan of DIY too as I have seen too many cases of infestation in properties having had regular 'professional' inspections.

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## intertd6

> That's a good question. Wouldn't they be seen with inspection? They would have to leave the stumps to travel past the steel. Same as travelling past the ant cap. That's where you would look. I know, hard to do, crawling in under there, fully enclosed subfloor. The BAL rating dictates a fully enclosed subfloor with no gap larger than 3mm. In their grand wisdom, they rate fire issues higher than termite issues I guess.

  If the termite cap has been bridged then they can gain entry without being seen, The structure has to comply with both in regards to fire & termite protection.
regards inter

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## barney118

I would have built the kennel a bit bigger  so it's comfy when you get booted out for being naughty!  
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## shauck

So we road tested it or dog tested it actually and had to make adjustment to the doorway, taking off the trim as it was just a bit too narrow. Will have to use something else much thinner to trim it. Aluminium angle or something.

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## shauck

Fine tuning done. Added aluminium trim and a flexible clear dog door. She went in and out no prob.   .

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## ringtail

Poor dog will gas itself with its own farts. You made it too air tight Su :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin: . Must weigh a bit too I'm guessing ?

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## shauck

> Poor dog will gas itself with its own farts. You made it too air tight Su. Must weigh a bit too I'm guessing ?

   :Roflmao:  
She doesn't fart much thankfully. Maybe after the occasional roo stick. Yeah, it's got a bit of weight to it.

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## Bloss

How's Nik going with the place - be nice to see some more pics if she's OK with that

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## shauck

Hi Bloss. 
Yes, it's moved along somewhat. All the windows are in and flashed and sealed to the max. The external cladding is on, except for some of the eaves. I then went to another job for the last 5 weeks (a bathroom/laundry reno) as the weather was being a pain and I was sitting about too much. Roof flashing is finished, I think. The rough in electrics are done and recently (haven't seen it myself) a toilet, bath, sink has been fitted and plumbed. She has external doors made and ready to fit but is waiting on locks or something (second hand info from mutual friend here). I let Nik know, the other day, that I'd be available again this week but she says she's run out of money and is going to try to do the rest herself. Her mother and grandmother have bought her a kitchen and appliances, so I suppose that will be in soon. I think she aims to move into it asap and finish it while living in it.  
I have to get my scaffolding down when I find a moment so I'll go take some pics then. I'm sure she won't mind future progress pics.

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