# Forum Home Renovation Decking  No nails

## Marc

After considering all the pro and con, I have finally pulled down the last remaining bits of my old deck, the stumps. Not one scrap of the old deck was worth keeping and so it's all from scratch.
I got the bearers and joist delivered on Friday but they are out of the Cyprus Pine decking so I have 3 weeks to wait and to get the structure up. 
What brings me to the no nail decking bit. 
I read with interest the "sticky" post about no nail system from Deck Max. Their web site is very informative and they seem a very organized bunch.
However at $1650 for the 4 boxes of clips I need, I started to look for alternatives and there are two in Melbourne
both called the same, No Nail Deck or No Nail Decking that cost less than half what Deck Max costs.
 Nonaildecking: Home
No nail deck: Prestige Dek Ties :: Manufacturer of no-nail decking system, Deck Ties, Dek Ties 
So what's the go, are this guys Deck Max in the Gold Coast twice as good? 
Has anyone used Nonaildecking? The only bum part it seems the clips are rectangular and not elliptical so it will require a few goes with the biscuit joiner to make a longer slot. 
Do you put silicone or similar to seal the groove for the clip?

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## stevoh741

I'd stick with screws if you want it to last

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## r3nov8or

Looks like Nonaildecking is about selling you the pre-slotted decking boards, and so suits the rectangle clips. Do they sell the clips alone? If you go with them and your own boards a small/trimming router with a slot-cutting bit would be better than a biscuit cutter I think.

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## michaelcb

I stuck with DeckMax. Fantastic company to deal with. Great product. Bloody hard work though, but worth it for the finish.

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## Gaza

Prestige no nail decking clips 4 us we use normal decking and slot each board. 
Imo deck max has an issues with the way you need to screw  then in do then knock over next board,

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## Craigoss

I am in the process of laying a 30sqr mtr deck using Boral Blackbutt 86x19 decjung with the Deck-Max original clips. I had boards pre-grooved by the timberyard supplying the timber. The end finish is coming up well, but its just very slow going. I am working alone, with all the boards pre cut to their positions and pre-grooved meaning I dont need a biscuit cutter, it was about 1hr to fix per 10m row of boards. It will be about 40hrs work for me to lay this deck using deck-max.

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## Marc

After further investigation, and talking to the respective managers (owners?) of 3 different no nail suppliers, I was surprised to find that all 3 claim to have the "correct" spacing. Deck Max 3mm, Nonaildecking 4 or 5 your choice, and Prestige no nails 6mm. 
I must say that I had the best impression from Prestige and the person I spoke with, Mike.
Gaza's post above confirms that. 
One advantage I see with a 6mm gap is that the screw can be tightened after fitting several boards and press them together since the head will go straight through. Also if one ever needs to change a board it is possible, probably still a pita of a job but possible.
Also Mike told me not to waste money on glue, it is not necessary.
If I add to that, Deck Max costs more than twice what Prestige cost, I think I have made up my mind.  Prestige Dek Ties :: Manufacturer of no-nail decking system, Deck Ties, Dek Ties

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## ringtail

For what its worth I hate the look of a deck with no visable fixings. Its not internal flooring, its decking and IMO should be treated as such by using top fixings - nails or screws. Just my 2 cents  :Tongue:

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## Gaza

> After further investigation, and talking to the respective managers (owners?) of 3 different no nail suppliers, I was surprised to find that all 3 claim to have the "correct" spacing. Deck Max 3mm, Nonaildecking 4 or 5 your choice, and Prestige no nails 6mm. 
> I must say that I had the best impression from Prestige and the person I spoke with, Mike.
> Gaza's post above confirms that. 
> One advantage I see with a 6mm gap is that the screw can be tightened after fitting several boards and press them together since the head will go straight through. Also if one ever needs to change a board it is possible, probably still a pita of a job but possible.
> Also Mike told me not to waste money on glue, it is not necessary.
> If I add to that, Deck Max costs more than twice what Prestige cost, I think I have made up my mind.  Prestige Dek Ties :: Manufacturer of no-nail decking system, Deck Ties, Dek Ties

  
you have come to same conculsion as us, we did try the 3 you have listed plus another one which was not cost effective, we have no trouble buying from Mike in the past, quick delivery and answered all questions as required. 
we have done it both ways pre slotted and un slotted. and done on site with the biscute jointer. 
we do glue ours with sealnflex by bostik, i dont like idea of using ultraset out side as suggested by deckmax, as i have seen ultraset peel away after contact with water, you could also use liquid nails landscape or a skia product

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## Marc

> you have come to same conculsion as us, we did try the 3 you have listed plus another one which was not cost effective, we have no trouble buying from Mike in the past, quick delivery and answered all questions as required. 
> we have done it both ways pre slotted and un slotted. and done on site with the biscute jointer. 
> we do glue ours with sealnflex by bostik, i dont like idea of using ultraset out side as suggested by deckmax, as i have seen ultraset peel away after contact with water, you could also use liquid nails landscape or a skia product

  After pulling down the old joist and seeing what the moisture had done to the timber, I would like to give the joist a coat of good exterior paint. The glue will have not much grip if I do that. 
As for the looks, well I agree that it comes down to personal preference. If you like the screws to be visible, top screw is a must

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## Gaza

> I would like to give the joist a coat of good exterior paint.

  
there was a post floating around here a while back that was backed up some data sheets saying that painting actual makes the joists rot quicker,

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## andrewfav

gday,
there are TRIM head screws available these days which means you can get a 8G screw with a 6g head which is quite small, worth considering as once it all goes down its not so overpowering as standard screws (in stainless steelsq/drive 1000 should cost around $110.00). Onced stained/oiled up with a good quality product the deck will look great eitherway, just with a hell of a lot less effort and time  when top fixed.
also make sure you get a smart drive or clever tool, predrills and countersinks the board quick and easy.
good luck

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## ringtail

Geez Gaza, how long does it take to lay a deck using that system ? I just had a look at the website. Seems like a great way to create a awful lot of work for yourself. I see it says to use 3 x 45 mm screws per biscuit - how does that work out for room on a 45 mm joist ?

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## Gaza

> Geez Gaza, how long does it take to lay a deck using that system ? I just had a look at the website. Seems like a great way to create a awful lot of work for yourself. I see it says to use 3 x 45 mm screws per biscuit - how does that work out for room on a 45 mm joist ?

  
pre slotted boards its about same as with screws but this means having custom clamps so that you can screw off 8 rows at a time, if anything its actual easy to do as your framing can be a little off and you dont have to think about stright lines withs screws. 
un slotted its a total pain  in butt, takes about a day to slot 15m2 plus you need to clean up the bits of wood that come out. 
its only 1 screw & 1 fixing per joists even when butting two lengths togther. 
NB: deckmax total diffenernt storey you can not multi board screw. 
you want some samples to play with?

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## ringtail

> pre slotted boards its about same as with screws but this means having custom clamps so that you can screw off 8 rows at a time, if anything its actual easy to do as your framing can be a little off and you dont have to think about stright lines withs screws. 
> un slotted its a total pain  in butt, takes about a day to slot 15m2 plus you need to clean up the bits of wood that come out. 
> its only 1 screw & 1 fixing per joists even when butting two lengths togther. 
> NB: deckmax total diffenernt storey you can not multi board screw. 
> you want some samples to play with?

  Ahhhh, I didnt realise you could get slotted boards. They must cost a bomb. Samples, no thanks. I'm too much of a traditionalist  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## Gaza

> Ahhhh, I didnt realise you could get slotted boards. They must cost a bomb. Samples, no thanks. I'm too much of a traditionalist

  it can but when buying volume its only $0.30per meter, we also just wack it through our joinery which runs it about 500lm in 2hrs

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## Marc

> pre slotted boards its about same as with screws but this means having custom clamps so that you can screw off 8 rows at a time, if anything its actual easy to do as your framing can be a little off and you don't have to think about straight lines with screws. 
> Un slotted its a total pain  in butt, takes about a day to slot 15m2 plus you need to clean up the bits of wood that come out. 
> its only 1 screw & 1 fixing per joists even when butting two lengths together. 
> NB: deckmax total different story you can not multi board screw. 
> you want some samples to play with?

  Hi Gaza, I got the decking boards at a really good deal, so no slots. It's the biscuit joiner all the way.
What do you mean you have to clean up the bits of wood that come out. You mean the saw dust from the biscuit joiner? That shouldn't be a big deal...a blower should deal with that (?) No?
One more...the slot is not in the center of the board, so I can not turn the board over to cut the other side. How do you do it? Go to the other side, cut the slots and then walk to the opposite side to do it again?
Do you clamp even when doing one board at the time?

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## ringtail

> it can but when buying volume its only $0.30per meter, we also just wack it through our joinery which runs it about 500lm in 2hrs

  Ahhh the old joinery, always there when ya need em :Biggrin: . Still sounds like a prick of a job for a DIY er'

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## zbooynick

What's the thought on using Camo Fasteners? I have only recently seen it at BunBun's and it looks pretty nifty. On the expensive side of which the tool costs $89 alone. Bit plus is that it auto spaces, no pre drilling, guides when screwing and best of all no biscuit cutting required!

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## Poirot

> What's the thought on using Camo Fasteners? I have only recently seen it at BunBun's and it looks pretty nifty. On the expensive side of which the tool costs $89 alone. Bit plus is that it auto spaces, no pre drilling, guides when screwing and best of all no biscuit cutting required!

  Only works with boards 123mm  147mm wide, so the choice is limited [ CAMO | Hidden Deck Fastening System | Marksman Tools ]
I wonder how you fix when close to a wall and you cannot get the angle on your drill ...

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## Craigoss

> Only works with boards 123mm  147mm wide, so the choice is limited [ CAMO | Hidden Deck Fastening System | Marksman Tools ]
> I wonder how you fix when close to a wall and you cannot get the angle on your drill ...

  That's the same problem with all the secret fixing deck options, you top nail/screw and plug the hole on the last board(s).

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## zbooynick

> Only works with boards 123mm  147mm wide, so the choice is limited [ CAMO | Hidden Deck Fastening System | Marksman Tools ]
> I wonder how you fix when close to a wall and you cannot get the angle on your drill ...

  Almost.... Camo Marksman Pro NB (Narrow Board) allows you to screw boards 80-123mm.

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## davidp.

I only just saw this, so this is probably too late to help, but I used Nonaildecking from Melbourne.
Timber quality (merbau) was excellent. Boards are already grooved entire length of board and the clips are rectangular, screwed with stainless screws.
Prettty easy to lay. Price per metre was about $4.00 cheaper than local timber merchants were charging for 140 wide boards(without grooove of course). I know some don't recommend the wider boards (warping)  but so far so good.
It's been down for 18months (in full sun) and no complaints yet. No movement or warping. The boards were 140mm x 19mm.
The deck is about 15m x 5 m.
Shipping from Melbourne would have been cost prohibitive (to newcastle) but a mate with an interstate trucking company picked some up for me and himself. He laid his on steel beams.
Cheers,
David

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## Marc

> I only just saw this, so this is probably too late to help, but I used Nonaildecking from Melbourne.
> Timber quality (merbau) was excellent. Boards are already grooved entire length of board and the clips are rectangular, screwed with stainless screws.
> Prettty easy to lay. Price per metre was about $4.00 cheaper than local timber merchants were charging for 140 wide boards(without grooove of course). I know some don't recommend the wider boards (warping)  but so far so good.
> It's been down for 18months (in full sun) and no complaints yet. No movement or warping. The boards were 140mm x 19mm.
> The deck is about 15m x 5 m.
> Shipping from Melbourne would have been cost prohibitive (to newcastle) but a mate with an interstate trucking company picked some up for me and himself. He laid his on steel beams.
> Cheers,
> David

  I did not like the "Nonaildecking", which is the knock off from No nail deck that changed his name to Prestige no nail deck. They are like you say square and forces you to either do a double or triple take with the biscuit jointer (as if this is not a waste of time already) or buy a grooved board, or groove it yourself. 
I finally decided to go with the CAMO hidden deck fastening system someone mentioned further up.
I checked it out at Bunnings, and after getting plenty of blank looks and statements that they did not know what I was talking about, or to check aisle 10 or, if you can not find it we don't have it....I found it tucked away in a corner of the screws section. 
However they did not have the 60mm screw. Only the 40mm. Considering hey are 7 gauge, I did not think they are long enough. Bunnings sells the box of 700x40mm screws for $99, and the tool for $90. 
I bought 3 boxes of 1700 x 60mm screws for $95 each from Home Depot and whilst at it, the tool at half price too.
May be one day in a century or two we may learn to give customer service and stock larger variety.
Meantime, the internet is your friend. Home Depot does not post to Australia but ships free to all lower states. I got a US address in Florida via MYUSA.com and they will post it to me. 
I am looking forward to a quick and easy job with this CAMO thingy. I was really dreading the biscuit jointer job on both sides of the board.
All I have to do now is buying a couple of Irwin friction clamps and modify the top end to fit between the boards.

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## r3nov8or

Marc, please let us know all about your experience with the Camo. So few real world reviews out there.

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## Marc

If you google it on google.com you will find a heap of reviews, all positive from people that have used it. There are few negative comments on some renovators forums but not from users, just negative opinions saying "I don't like it" And I suppose that is Ok too.
From what I have seen on different videos to install it one must watch that the tool is really flat on the board and no gap otherwise the screw will get in the board too high on the edge.
The screws I have seen in Bunnings have a really tough cover and the business end is like a sort of drill. It is quite possible that the 40 mm length is adequate but I prefer to go with the 60mm particularly because of the angle it goes in meaning even less depth.
I'll see how I manage with bent boards because the bits of the tool that act as spacers seem to be a bit like a wedge, so if I apply pressure with a clamp to straightening a board, it may make the spacer pop up ... not sure yet. Even then, I'll find a way to get it right and quick. It is clearly a much more practical and quick method than the biscuit jointer and plastic bits. An if you buy on the net from the US, about 1/3 the price.
If I need to change a board, I can always take the screws out just like a top screwed board. 
In case anyone wants to buy this or any other tools or hardware from the US, you will hit a wall most of the time even with Amazon since they do post for free within the US but still frown upon posting stuff to us.
The solution is to sign up with a web site in Florida called myus.com that receive the parcel and forward it to you for a small fee.

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## r3nov8or

> If you google it on google.com you will find a heap of reviews, all positive from people that have used it. ...

   well its been a while since I last looked. Will be good to see your review here.

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## mugatu

I went with Deck Max and roughly a 4m x 4m. Finished in 2 weekends working about 5 - 6hrs a day. Really could of used a helper as the boss was away, just for re-setting everything. You really do need to work from one end, clamp, glue, screw, then work the remaining end of the board. Not hard to use though but just a bit time consuming on your own. Flip side the system made it quite easy to do on your own with the clamps and screw system. I used the pre-grooved boards. 
Looks great the no nails or screws, but each to their own. Sure all systems have their good and bad sides. Support from Deck Max was good, I've read one of their emails that says they have some screening options and bamboo outdoor decking now.

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## aj1au

> In case anyone wants to buy this or any other tools or hardware from the US, you will hit a wall most of the time even with Amazon since they do post for free within the US but still frown upon posting stuff to us.

  OT. There is more than one amazon site and the rules and prices do differ. If you dont have any luck with amazon.com, then try amazon.co.uk or amazon.com.de (german site) 
I have found the german site to be far less restrictive and often much cheaper. Just have another browser with an english version of amazon and you can use that to follow the german language. All the buttons and text boxes are in the same place 
Back on topic, I have finished my frame today and will be giving the camo system ago tomorrow if the rain holds Will let you know how I go 
(first time deck builder, probably my first post but have read alot on this site)

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## aj1au

Ok, I didnt get as many boards down as I would have liked today but I am loving the camo system. Its working out very nicely and the results are far better than I would have imagined (first time deck builder) I only missed on one screw, but was fine to remove the screw and redo.  
I have found that if you dont drive the screw in far enough then its difficult to remove the tool. If this happens, then just drive the screw in a bit further. The screws chewed through the Merbau without any problems. I am using a corded drill with lots of torque so I guess this helps. Not sure if the battery drills have the same power. I was a bit worried that I was going to chew through the bit but no problems after approx 300 screws. I didnt have any problems with clearing the tool either. The only problem I had with the tool is that a couple of times the slide that is used to adjust for the size of the board slipped. Not a big deal, just have to reset it 
 I am praying for a sunny weekend next week to finish it off 
The gaps are a little larger than I would have liked, but I guess this is a good thing as it does mean more ventilation. The tool makes it very easy to get the gaps consistent and I have a decking tool I picked up from amazon to get the boards straight. Thats also working well - see the link below. Im not sure the name of this tool. I got it delivered for around $35 a few months ago. I have seen them advertised locally for around $150  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-6.../dp/B000LFYOX8 
Sorry, i didnt take any pics

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## Marc

> Ok, I didnt get as many boards down as I would have liked today but I am loving the camo system. Its working out very nicely and the results are far better than I would have imagined (first time deck builder) I only missed on one screw, but was fine to remove the screw and redo.  
> I have found that if you dont drive the screw in far enough then its difficult to remove the tool. If this happens, then just drive the screw in a bit further. The screws chewed through the Merbau without any problems. I am using a corded drill with lots of torque so I guess this helps. Not sure if the battery drills have the same power. I was a bit worried that I was going to chew through the bit but no problems after approx 300 screws. I didnt have any problems with clearing the tool either. The only problem I had with the tool is that a couple of times the slide that is used to adjust for the size of the board slipped. Not a big deal, just have to reset it 
>  I am praying for a sunny weekend next week to finish it off 
> The gaps are a little larger than I would have liked, but I guess this is a good thing as it does mean more ventilation. The tool makes it very easy to get the gaps consistent and I have a decking tool I picked up from amazon to get the boards straight. Thats also working well - see the link below. Im not sure the name of this tool. I got it delivered for around $35 a few months ago. I have seen them advertised locally for around $150  Silverline 675068 Decking Installation Tool: Amazon.co.uk: DIY & Tools 
> Sorry, i didnt take any pics

  Are you using the 40mm screw or the 60mm ?
Did you buy from Bunnings?

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## aj1au

> Are you using the 40mm screw or the 60mm ?
> Did you buy from Bunnings?

  
No, I bought them online. They are approx 60mm - the box says 2-3/8". Will probably have to buy some from bunnies as I doubt Ill have enough to complete the whole job. I have under estimated how many I would use  :Rolleyes:

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## Marc

> No, I bought them online. They are approx 60mm - the box says 2-3/8". Will probably have to buy some from bunnies as I doubt Ill have enough to complete the whole job. I have under estimated how many I would use

  I bought from Home Depot but they not only did not post, they did not even want me to have an O/S billing address so had to scrap the order.
Bought from amazon.com and paid $50 less, shippment taken care by myus.com 
However e-bay US sells the camo screws and tool for the same money and they ship for sure so, If I had to buy again I would go e-bay us.
Bunnings does not stock the 60mm screws. 
This is a video showing the system. CAMO Hidden Deck Fastening System - YouTube 
THis is an Australian video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2KLG...eature=related

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## Marc

Finally received screws and driver guide yesterday. Will start screwing the boards down this weekend.

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## Marc

The Camo system of "no-nails" is brilliant. 
I have so far screwed down half the deck boards. 
About 2000 screws so far at 66 screws per each length of boards, boy is this tedious and slow. 
The boards are Cyprus Pine and have a tendency to split. However after splitting a few I learned quickly that one must allow the screw to pre-drill. Light pressure and the results are very good in my opinion. I am soooo glad I did not buy the one that require biscuit jointer for each joist on both sides. Nightmare.
This is excellent.   
On their website they suggest to pre-drill at the ends. I first did so but I think it is counterproductive.
 If you pre-drill, the screw goes in stright away and splits the corner. 
I you are extra careful and let the screw spin fast with no pressure, the screw digs in slowly and even if it is 20 mm from the end, there is no split. 
The process is time consuming but so is every other fixing system for decks, short of a nailgun.
if you want to do this between two people, buy yourself two screw guides. 
I am using an impact driver only because I like the small and light ergometric handle of my new Makita 18V but any drill will do it. Because you are spinning the screws a bit before pushing them in, it is a bit heavy on the battery. 
 I noticed that Bunnings sells the Camo thingy and screws but they only stock the 40mm screws. Camo themselvs say that 40 mm is OK for 19mm boards.
I beg to differ. The screw goes in at 45 degree angle and that makes the 19 mm wood, about 25mm. Admitteldy the screw gois in the side, yet you wouldn't get more than 20 to 25 mm of screw in the joist.  
I had to import the 60 mm screws myself. May be some other supplier does sell them. I couldn't be bothered checking considering I paid half price (as usual) overseas. 
The only downside I suppose is that the gaps are on the large side at 5mm, and there is no possible way to make them either smaller nor larger. Actually you could make them larger but would have no guide to make them even. 
Which brings me to another small problem. If you need to adjust for creep or misalignment, I couldn't think of a practical way to do so without making a massive gap that would stand out like the proverbial.
What I did was to taper a couple of meters at each end of the run on one board to make the correction I needed, (about 5mm). A simple job with a planer and a sander, even with manual tools it wouldn't be much of a muchness. 
I am very pleased so far. Not a perfect system because you still can, if you look closely, see the hole of the screw, not the screw itself but the little hole. Yet once the oil is applied they are even harder to see. 
A very good invention. I think they will have to work on the handle on the guide because it feels a little springy, and there is a sticker on it that reads: "This tool is not load bearing". Ha ha, they must get many sent back broken by someone who thinks needs to stand on it with all 120 kilos. Not necessary after you learn to use it, but still a little stiffer or a D handle in stead of an open one would be nice.

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## shauck

Any cool pics?

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## r3nov8or

Thanks for the review Marc.

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## Marc

This was supposed to be a quick fix. change the deck boards only. Unfortunately everything had to go, either rotten or undersized or substandard. Started from the dirt.
You can see bearers first in then joists and finally the deck boards. At the last minute I decided for framing the edges, so had to add a double joist at the ends. It wasn't that bad after all. I spaced both joists with a 2x3 so to allow for water drain between the ends of the boards. I used damp course plastic as joist 'saver' since it costs a fraction of the real thing and does the same job. Stapled with a pneumatic stapler.
The test was the two "new" things for me anyway, Cyprus Pine in stead of hardwood or the usual treated pine, and the Camo screws.
I am extremely happy with both choices. The Cyprus Pine I bought at the same price as treated pine is very nice to work with, hardly any bad boards, very straight and not too many short ones in the pack and smells very nice.
I first had two boards down and came back to the job after a week, and noticed small surface cracks started to develop. I was told to oil the boards at the end of the day yet I forgot. This time I did so and no more cracks. 
The camo screws work very well in my opinion. The guide thingy works well but is hard on your hands after a full day of work. I suppose you get used to it, yet I have blacksmith hands, someone else may get blisters. 
Have gone half way with the boards this week. I'll add more pics as I go. I am already thinking of the rail, and the steps down that will go from a tired and steep treated pine steps to pre moulded  concrete step and raisers following the natural slope at the end against the colourbond fence

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## shauck

Nice work. Look forward to seeing the finished product.

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## Marc

Decking boards all down, now for the rail and stairs.

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## Bedford

Looks good Marc, any chance you can rotate the pics before posting?

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## Marc

Done, however I don't know how to delete the crooked one.

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## Bedford

Thanks Marc, I've made them bigger so I reckon we just leave the crooked ones for now.

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## Bloss

Lookin' good!  :2thumbsup:

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## shauck

Very nice!

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## ringtail

Very nice indeed. Good work Marc. :2thumbsup:

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## Marc

Finished the railing, now have to decide what to use for balusters.

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## goldie1

Nice!  Love the hand rails. They look exactly a stubby width

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## Marc

Ha ha, 140 -30 -30 = 80 ... about right .. 
Need to take the edge off with a hand plane

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## jimj

Great job and I have no doubt about how good this project makes you feel and will inspire all those who have followed it. 
jimj :Biggrin:

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## kopite1892

> Ha ha, 140 -30 -30 = 80 ... about right .. 
> Need to take the edge off with a hand plane

  love the deck marc, congrats on a job well done! 
im very interesting in using the camo system for our deck as well, although i am a little concerned if you can clearly notice the screws in the corner/sides of the boards....?
just wondering if you could post any close up pics of where the screws are located on the decking boards?    
cheers

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## Marc

> love the deck marc, congrats on a job well done! 
> im very interesting in using the camo system for our deck as well, although i am a little concerned if you can clearly notice the screws in the corner/sides of the boards....?
> just wondering if you could post any close up pics of where the screws are located on the decking boards?    
> cheers

  In one of the photos, the one the shows the tools close up, you can see one of the screw holes. I try to remember to take a picture close up this weekend now that it is finished and oiled. There are no invisible fastening systems, short of screwing the boards from below to an angle bracket, all show something. 
I used sikkens decking oil and it had a bit of a tint. The oil dripped into the screw holes and made them almost invisible. I know where they are and if I look for them I can see them yet a visitor wouldn't unless he lays down on his belly. 
I think, correct me if I am wrong, that the hidden fasteners strongest selling point is not that they are "hidden" to a more or lesser degree, after all there is nothing wrong with visible SS screws. To me it is that they are out of the way of sanding when required. The chance of sanding your deck years after you finished it without needing to punch nails or driving rusty screws is peace of mind.

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## Marc

Talking about deck finish. I was told by the timber supplier that Australian Cyprus needs to be oiled straight away after finish laying it. Since I took weeks to finish doing the job on my own on weekends and the size of it at 15x5 meters approximately I oiled the boards at the end of the day as i went so I gave the first coat without cleaning it.
Once I finished all the flooring, I gave it a good clean prior to second coat, with a product designed to clean decks but that is most probably just a stronger version of nappysan. 
I read the famous thread about cleaning and oiling your deck and noticed it is recommended to keep the nappysan wet. (?) How do you do that if it is a sunny day and your deck is large? Should I go back with a garden spray with a bit of solution and wet it again?   
I will need to clean again since the birds sitting on the Sydney Blue Gum that is next to the deck, seem to enjoy target practice. Will I need to use the cleaning agent again or just hose it down for a final coat? I know 3 coats of oil sounds excessive, however the timber is still patchy and dry in some areas.

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## r3nov8or

Marc, just a very fine mist spray will keep the deck and cleaning solution wet enough without washing it off early.

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## Marc

Ok, my deck is finally finished. Railing panels, side fence, stairs, all done. 
Still a few spots of paint left in some very out of reach spots. 
The paving next to it, is in need of fixing but I an not going to do it myself. 
I am very happy with all I have done but for one thing.
I used Sikkens for the finish and in a short period of time it has gone black. I had lots of bla bla over the phone but no one wants to even come and see why this happened. 
I tried to clean it with deck cleaner (nappysan sort of product but for cleaning decks) to no avail. 
I have yet to try oxalic acid and pressure cleaner or last resort a light sanding.
A real bummer. 
The baluster panels under the railings were a lot of fun to make. I had not used so much welding and grinding and hammering since my times as a black smith many decades ago.
I used 25x25 duragal square tubing (I think it was 2.1mm thick). MIG welding, flat welds dressed with ordinary grinder. Corners I used an air driven die grinder, a fantastic tool but needs a big compressor. I bought most of the forged inserts to save time. They come from Italy for a song.
Once finished I took the lot to powder coating. The colour by Dulux is "Aztec silver".  
The concrete steps were a lot of heavy work for me that am not used to bricklaying work. 21 steps, 42 brick pears with concrete footings. Digging and shoveling dirt. Mixing concrete and then mixing mud. And then land level with the deck with hardly any room for adjustment. 
Pics follow. 
Any suggestion for cleaning that rotten Sikkens oil are welcome. Any idea what to do with the 10 litres I have left also welcomed.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## shauck

Just beautiful. Love your work.

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## jimj

Firstly , I have never worked with Cyprus pine on any of the decks I have restored. I have worked on a lot of Sikkens coated decks along with cranky folks who have called the Sikkens phone only to get nowhere. On the back page of the 9 page brochure. The very last sentences basically say that they take no responsibility for the use of their products as the the use,application bla bla bla is beyond their control. 
OK when I first started restoration I used chemicals-pressure cleaning. Napisan(soap) ,oxalic acid (deck cleaners) won't budge sikkens which is a non penetrating but film based oil coating. As hard&dense as cyprus pine is I can't imagine anything that could find its way into the timber. 
The only chemical that I could shift sikkens with was the stripper called Citistrip. It is a gel type stripper that you apply with a brush. Let it dwell for 10 minutes or so then scrape-pressure wash off. Be prepared for nothing more than a very ttedious excercise with a mess being sprayed all over everything. The old coating being spayed all over will make a mess on everything it hits & lands on and if you don't find it and it dries it is stuck for a long time  or forever. It will absolutely screw up your new metal work (very nice design & work). 
Looking at the timber when it was first put down & now it really has split up  a lot. I really can't comment on how good cyprus pine is for sitting horizontal in the sun but it sure looks beat up in a very short time. My approach would be sanding starting with 40 grit ,then 60 finishing with 80.
Time wise I couls completely sand a deck this size in 1 big day and have it ready to recoat with virtually no mess and a new layer exposed which is the best starting position.. I am not sure what the black from the photos. It looks like either mold which occurs when you have a lot of surounding vegetation or the sun has just burnt the timber& coating. 
Either way I can see why you are upset as I see a lot of upset deck owners.
I am not sure what coating you are going to consider next. I use Sikkens on my outdoor timber table which is under a roof as well as my spotted gum handrails. Both are easy to maintain where a deck is a hassle. 
Your hidden nails will make the sanding easier. The only thing I would have to experiment with is the (possibility) of when sanding cyprus when it heats up from the sanding friction will it gum up any resin at the knots. Not sure 
Best of luck 
jimj   restore-a-deck    :Biggrin:

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## Marc

Hi, and thank you for your answers.
The black stuff is mold. I think sikkens contains linseed oil and it does not like the moisture from the fresh laid timber. The black stuff cleans up very easily with sanding. I did some spotting with an orbital sander and it cleaned up straight away. I also tried on a bad spot to go really heavy with 3 times the concentration of the "nappysan" deck cleaner and it washed a lot of the sikkens away but not completely. Probably would need to redo. How can they sell that crap is beyond me, and it is not cheap, they sell it as the bees knees! At least they could put some anti-fungal preservative in it. Bl**&# ba@%*&^ 
I wonder if the light floor sander the one that turns horizontally with a heavy screen would be enough to take the stuff off?
There will be no gum up at the knots. I have seen sanding Cyprus pine and it seems very straight forward. 
As for what to use after I sand it, I suppose Watson or Cabbot clear decking oil should do the trick 
What's the going rate to sand per square meter? I have some 15x5 more or less 75 m2. You don't have relatives to visit for Christmas in Sydney?  :Biggrin:

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## jimj

ppealing  Sorry no rellies in Sydney. I wold think there would be a number of good floor sanders that would find this a very straight forward job. I really can't say what the going rate is to sand in Sydney. I charge between 20-30 dependent on the deck. Nails to punch,how  much weathering, percentage of hand sanding versus big machine sanding etc.  
IMO very important to have all the edges sanded with an orbital sander dso no swirl marks showing. 
regarding coating if you apply anything that is clear the sun's UV will quickly penetrate through the coating and try to turn it silver grey. You need to consider a tinted product that is appealing to you,blocks the sun and one that you are happy with the maintenace regime-hassle-enjoyment 
best of luck  
jimj   restotre-a-deck

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## shauck

Don't suppose you'd want to test Cutek CD50 with walnut tint perhaps.... and let me know how it looks on Cypress.... :Biggrin:

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## Marc

I got hold of the Sikkens rep who basically told me that they are not responsible.  :Doh:  
He said that what I have is a case of mold spores trapped under the sikkens coat, so you see it is not the coat's fault but the mold spores. A case of spores being in the wrong spot at the right time. :Annoyed:  
So I am up for a sanding session. Doing the edges with an orbital sander is too easy. The rest I'll try my luck with a Polyvac rather than a heavy belt sander.  
Speaking with the sikkens rep, he told me a few things worth considering. When I said Google brings up a string of cases of sikkens turning decks black yet no one complains about cabot or watson doing the same, he said that this is so because Cabot and watson  recommend to clean the deck with their cleaner before coating and their cleaner contains mold killer. Yet they do not sell deck cleaner, so they either recommend to use cabots one or wash the deck down with bleach. 
I thought that was a lame comment to make but on a practical side, if I am going to waste time in sanding my deck, I surely don't want to repeat the mistake of painting over mold spores again.
So I will have to go on a killing spree after sanding. (no not the rep, the mold) 
If I wash the timber with bleach, besides degrading the timber and bleaching the colour I will need to wash the bleach off, wetting everything with tons of water and leaving it to dry for 3 or 4 days. During the drying process mold will fall down on the deck from the blue gum standing next to it and we are back to square one. 
What about if I hose down the deck after sanding and spray wet and forget on it, let it dry and oil it?
I sent an e-mail to wet and forget, hoping for a quick answer. Does anyone know if this can be done? This way I'll keep some residual anti fungal action under the oil coat.
Or should I just use the Cabot deck cleaner ... or the bleach?  
As for Cutec CD50, I am all for suggestions. What is it?

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## r3nov8or

Take a look at Cutek here Features " Testimonials of Cutek CD50<sup>®</sup> and hit the Contact tab, leave a message and they'll be in touch in no time.

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## METRIX

Nice Job, gotta be happy with that.  
We tried the Camo system on 90mm Hardwood boards and was not impressed, the results were not consistent, the tool has pre set widths, but appeared to be better suited to a board just under 90mm or just over, it moved around a lot and just didn't have a positive lock for 90mm boards, and was just too slow. 
Plus for long runs of boards you need  to have double joists for the joins as drilling close to the edge of the boards splits the whole piece off, just not worth the trouble IMO.  
The screws tended to split the sides more often than not, either using the light pressure method to allow the screw to dig its own hole, or a bit more pressure to help it, neither method worked for us, so off it went back to Bunnings for return. 
We gave up and went back to TRIM head top fix method, its a shame as the online videos showed so much promise for the system, but in real life we couldn't get it to work reliably, I know some others have managed to work it, for me top fixing is the way to go for longevity. 
Using a the hardwood wrench (the real one not the knock off versions) and spacers we are able to evenly space up to 8 boards at a time which are all perfectly straight and pre drill them and screw down in no time, after each 8 boards checking parallel distances as always to ensure you are still on track.  Hardwood Wrench - Home Page - Deck Board Straightening Tool 
I do still hold hope for a simple, reliable secret method which doesn't require special boards, or take all day to biscuit the sides etc.

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## Marc

> Nice Job, gotta be happy with that.  
> We tried the Camo system on 90mm Hardwood boards and was not impressed, the results were not consistent, the tool has pre set widths, but appeared to be better suited to a board just under 90mm or just over, it moved around a lot and just didn't have a positive lock for 90mm boards, and was just too slow. 
> Plus for long runs of boards you need  to have double joists for the joins as drilling close to the edge of the boards splits the whole piece off, just not worth the trouble IMO.  
> The screws tended to split the sides more often than not, either using the light pressure method to allow the screw to dig its own hole, or a bit more pressure to help it, neither method worked for us, so off it went back to Bunnings for return. 
> We gave up and went back to TRIM head top fix method, its a shame as the online videos showed so much promise for the system, but in real life we couldn't get it to work reliably, I know some others have managed to work it, for me top fixing is the way to go for longevity. 
> Using a the hardwood wrench (the real one not the knock off versions) and spacers we are able to evenly space up to 8 boards at a time which are all perfectly straight and pre drill them and screw down in no time, after each 8 boards checking parallel distances as always to ensure you are still on track.  Hardwood Wrench - Home Page - Deck Board Straightening Tool 
> I do still hold hope for a simple, reliable secret method which doesn't require special boards, or take all day to biscuit the sides etc.

  The handle/guide thingy I used was the one that can be adjusted not the fixed version sold by Bunnings
That works for any size board within its limitations of minimum and maximum of course. 90mm x 21mm is what I have and it works a treat in my opinion. The tool don't really need to lock or grip, just close on the board without leaving any gaps. It requires some pressure downwards to make sure the screw does not lift the board when it hits the joist. If it does, all you need to do is unscrew and go forward again. What I find is that the handle is a bit springy for the downward force required and a D shape handle would be better. 
Screwing the ends takes some getting used to and success depends also from type of timber. Having said that I don't think there is worst timber for splitting then Cyprus. I did split a few but quickly learned that pre drilling makes matters worst since the cutting edge will not drill a hole and rather pulls in faster than without pre drilling. So its a matter of placing the guide as far as possble from the end of the board without missing the joist, and giving it extra time without applying any pressure at all to allow the screw to pre drill. It worked for me and had I top nailed or screwed, after this disaster with bloody sickening sikkens I would be really screwed. 
Slow, yes. No secret nailing system will ever be fast.
Heavy on your hands. Yes. I suppose like anything else you may get used to it if you do it for a living. 
Remind me of an old timer that had a wooden barge that needed recorking/caulking every 5 or so years. He used to say that "By the time I remember how to do this effectively, I have finished and in 5 years I have forgotten all of it again" ... :Biggrin:  
As for the wrench...I have one that does not look as fancy as that one but is exactly the same. I couldn't' use it simply because I used joist protectors and the plastic is far too slippery to allow the tool to lock sideways. It works well on bare joists.
Anyone for a joist wrench at half price?

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## METRIX

> The handle/guide thingy I used was the one that can be adjusted not the fixed version sold by Bunnings
> That works for any size board within its limitations of minimum and maximum of course. 90mm x 21mm is what I have and it works a treat in my opinion. The tool don't really need to lock or grip, just close on the board without leaving any gaps. It requires some pressure downwards to make sure the screw does not lift the board when it hits the joist. If it does, all you need to do is unscrew and go forward again. What I find is that the handle is a bit springy for the downward force required and a D shape handle would be better.

  Bunnings stock the two adjustable Marksman Pro models for small or large boards, we found it was not very sturdy when drilling in the fastener, sort of like the tool wanted to wander around and not sit flat, and as you cant actually pull it tight to the board as the self adjuster looks after this, you could not pull it tight to the board. 
I agree a proper weight bearing D handle on top would be better that the flimsy one you cannot put weight on, Anyway it obviously worked for you, and the results look good. 
I had hoped it did work as easy and quick as the videos show, but maybe in treated pine decking as most of their videos show it might, a bit too time consuming and finicky for large decks, and you can only work one board at a time, now if they had a 8 board side by side version now your talking :Sneaktongue:

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## jimj

Mould is a tough one to deal with as I can remove easily the mould we can see by sanding. However some of the spores will be further down in the cracks& fissures.
Although the are no gurantees you may want to look at 
1. Flood  mould action  This is a chlorine based solution that you sread-mop onto the deck and it must remain for 24 hours. It will evaporate in about 15 minutes but you can't coat for 24 hours. This is supoosedly to give the solution to get deep in the cracks&fissures to (kill) the spores.
2. Flood make a solution callled VC 175 . This is a mould inhibitor -retardant. I have found the use of both seems to help keep the mould down by some 50%.
So will you still have some mould try to creep in  YES!
Will it help somewhat  YES! 
Good Luck 
jimj   restore-a-deck

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## shauck

> During the drying process mold will fall down on the deck from the blue gum standing next to it and we are back to square one. 
> As for Cutec CD50, I am all for suggestions. What is it?

  I was wondering if you could cover it with a tarp after cleaning it and before oiling it to stop the gum tree doing it's thing. Or cut the blighter down  :Shock:   
There's some good posts about on Cutek CD50. From what I can gather it seems to last longer than most other oils One of the forum members here. Stevoh741 (I think) uses it all the time professionally. I also have cypress boards and wondered if the walnut tint would look good. I like a darker look so it might suit me but not many cypress decks out there and not heard of any that have used this stuff or this particular tint. You can also use it untinted and the deck will go grey but remain protected. Cypress goes a pretty light grey tho. Not that special, IMO.

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## jimj

I am hoping that you are narrowing down your plan of turning this around. I am sure all of us who have been following this thread feel for you after all of the effort and hard work you have put into this project.
Although as  I mentioned in an earlier reply I have not encountered a cypress pine the greatest challenge to decking fully exposed to the elements is the suns UV. The UV is trying to turn the surface silver grey. There is nothing wrong with this, infact a lot of people prefer a grey deck. 
The clearer the coating product is the faster the UV will get through,the more often coating will be required. I could only find that you used Sikkens. I am assuming you used SikkensHLS and a light tint. As I think you suspect the mold had already been dispersed during the construction phase and you mentioned that you coated straight after laying at the end of the days work. 
OK so what is the oil in HLS sold in OZ. From the best I could find from the MSDS sheets for HLS the breakdown is
1. distillates (petroleum) hydrotreated light 50-75%
2.naptha(petroleum) hydrotreated heavy 10-25%
No mention of linseed oil 
Sounds as if you have worked out to just sand the mess off and start all over. The sandivac(polivac) may work. However I have a sandivac in my collection of sanding tools I am not that confident it can remove 3 coats of HLS but perhaps where it doesn't you can hand sand back those areas.
I think you would be wise to really blow off all the dust thouroughly. Whether you apply a sterilizing agent to try and tackle the mold spores sitting in the fissures& splits is your call but I would go with that. I don't think the small cost of adding a mould inhibitor to your coating hurts either. 
Selecting the next coating is the biggest challenge because all coatings have their good& bad points. I don't think there is such a thing as the best.
You need to compare cost,ease of application and reapplication,longevity in the sun,looks,does it crack,blister or peel and so on & so on. 
Whatever you decide on only time will tell if you are happy with the result of your hard work.
I hope it works out well 
Jimj

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## Marc

Hi and thank you for your replies. 
Since I will do the sanding myself and save over $1000 in the process, I have some room to spend on the best killer I can get. The suggestion to tarp up after cleaning is probably a good idea even when not very practical. I do have a couple of giant tarps from the times we use to do camping ... one 9x6 and the other 6x6 so just the right size.
I like the idea of having some residual stuff under the oil after cleaning the mess.
I sent an e-mail to wet&forget with no success. I would rather avoid the use of chlorine based products since it damages the wood.
Can you leave the stuff on it or do you need to wash it down? 
As for which oil to use, hey, you are the expert I am the dumbo who fell for the sales pitch of the timber merchant who sold me "the best decking oil in the world". 
Is that Cutec CD50 an oil based product or is it a film?
I use to manufacture wallpapering glue and we used a mercury based anti-fungal that was a bomb. I bet you it is banned this days. That would be the ticket! 
As for the sander, I used a 1/3 sheet makita orbital sander (Or is it bosh?) not particularly potent and the coating and underlying mold dissipated almost instantly. I was tempted to keep on going over all the stains by hand. Only a spark of common sense stopped me. The easy with which I got rid of the black stuff made me believe that it is not between wood and coat as Sikkens suggests, but it is actually in the oil coat itself. That is my theory anyway.
So it's up to kennards for a Polyvac and a few heavy screens, but first I must buy the cleaner and retardant to be ready. I think I'll go with the tarp suggestion since I found out that the biggest source of mold are actually gum leaves.
So I will have this mold as a recurring problem and it makes sense not to use a top coat but rather an oil that can be spot sanded and re oiled without problem

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## Gaza

> sales pitch of the timber merchant who sold me "the best decking oil in the world".  
>  , I used a 1/3 sheet makita orbital sander (Or is it bosh?)

  HAHA i know the bloke you are talking about he would not know if his butt was on fire, 
as for the sander suggest you get an obital 150mm it will do a lot quicker than the sheet sander, start with 80G finsh at 100 no point going past that, JIm may provide further info on the sanding

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## Marc

http://www.floodaustralia.net/brochu...n-brochure.pdf  http://www.floodaustralia.net/brochu...5-brochure.pdf  Other Products Index

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## shauck

Try having a read of here   How To Use Cutek CD50<sup>®</sup> CD50

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## jimj

I see most of the products that are sold to apply to decks. I have stayed with the water based acyrlic from Flood now for 9 years (7 professionally)
I am free to choose any product to apply provided the client is happy. However, the reason I have stuck with Spa& deck is that it has a very good longevity when exposed daily to sun. It is easy to apply,touch dries in 15 minutes or so,won't crack,blister or peel and easy to reapply when required,water only clean up and virtually no smell. It is a film coating that is tinted. Its downside is that it masks the grain more than a light tinted oil. So the natural look  of your timber is challenged by the coating. 
Penetrating oils like Cutek will show the timbers characteristics in a more enhanced way but will need to be reapplied on a more often basis,can remain sticky for some time and is turps clean up. 
I realise this will fly in the face of general thinking but IMO regardless of which product is applied eventually all decks with TOTAL sun & weather exposure will eventually reach a point where all the crap on the woods surface will need removing and be coated again. I include spa&deck in that opinion. 
All timber degrades from the UV especially timber sitting flat with the sun . The same happens to cars,colourbond roofing,painted concrete tiles. 
I have found the 4 coats of Spa&deck applied intitially will usually keep most people happy before a recoating is required for about 15-18 months where I live in SE QLD. Further north I would expect a little less and south maybe a little longer. Those estimates are guesses. 
Regardless all decks can be scratched,gouged,stained from wine,dog mess,bird droppings,grow mould. 
  If anyone out there is secretly  mixing up a brew that is clear,blocks the uv totally,doesn't crack or peel ,lasts for 2 years or longer before recoating is required,easy to apply,isn;t sticky,washes with water  could you please privately email me ( I would like to be an inverstor) :Biggrin:  
Marc ,if you want to see spa&deck on decks have a look at the finished snap shots  on my website. Every finished photo is done in Jarrah tint S&D 
disclaimer: I do not work for Flood just use their products 
jimj   www.restore-a-deck.com.au

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