# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Looking for Motion Sensor Light + "Soft On/Off" for Kitchen

## Billy22Bob

I see the kitchen may be the only place to use this as the other rooms - you sit still too long and the lights go off....happens at work. 
Anyway I'm looking for;
1. Motion Sensor with day/night photo cell for 300W (1.5Amp) in the kitchen .....easy enough - links please.
2. If you turn it on...would love it to ramp up over 2seconds and down when it turns off over 2 seconds.
3. Whoohaa....dreaming...you could set it so it runs down to a specified level say 25% brightness when no motion detected....and you move and it brightens up - "full off" by main switch on the wall okay. 
been scanning alibaba for something
s

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## applied

Cbus + 753r sensor + any fitting too easy $1000 
It's easy enough to do the 25% dimming without cbus but not as easy to soft start.

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## Billy22Bob

I presume it would have some size, but it would take time to charge 300VA and take time to discharge .....? Just need to work out the TC.
That's where you come in....;>)

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## applied

Best bet for discount soft start is to use either halogens with the soft start built in or a fluro balast that has it built in like a Phillis DALI or DSI.
Stuffing around with capacitors is a waste of time unless you know exactly the characteristics of the load. 
I have a similar setup for my lights under the eaves they are dimmed all night unless the motion sensor is activated and at that point they ramp to full brightness for a few minuites then back to dimmed. No cbus nothing special but no soft on off. 
Why would you want this setup anyway?

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## Billy22Bob

are you using for the dimming? - no comprede
sounds like it might satisfy idea 3 at least.
My circuit is 6 x 50W 240V halogens. 
b22b

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## applied

It's very technical really (not) I am using a standard off the shelf dimmer that by passes the motion sensor therefore when the sensor is off the dimmer is the path of least resistance. 
Also if your load is halogens soft start is as simple as buying soft start transformers.

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## Billy22Bob

I was particular in pointing out this is a 24V system - no Tranny's

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## applied

*quote=Billy22Bob* *My circuit is 6 x 50W 240V halogens.*   *quote=Billy22Bob*  * was particular in pointing out this is a 24V system - no Tranny's*  
i will assume you mean 240 and not 24 and either way goodluck.  *Hence...* 240v and 12v fittings are essentialy the same and the globes are interchanceable and provide a light so simmilar you would be hard pressed to pick them in a line up so converting to trannys would provide *A* solution. (with 35watt globes a 90watt energy saving solution with the same light output)

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## Billy22Bob

Yes I meant they are 240V halogens.
And no a capacitorwont work on an AC system - maybe convert to 300W DC system and I could use a capacitor with a suitable time constant...eh?.
b22b

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## Billy22Bob

I've sort of used your idea and posted over at another forum - feel free to have a look. 
"Looking for Motion Sensor Light + "Soft On/Off" for Kitchen" 
b22b  *EDITOR'S NOTE: Cross Forum Link Removed* *Watson*

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## Billy22Bob

"Seems" they removed my link for some reason..... 
Copy and pasted post below.....See attached. 
The attached schem would work as such;
A - When power is initially switched on and no motion present....dimmer circuit would be path of least resistance and hence lamps would soft on up to "dim - stand by" to the level set by the dimmer - preferably low.
B - When motion is detected, the motion sensor would close and path of least resistance would cause lights to "soft up" via the cap to full power.
C - When motion is no longer detected, the reverse would occur and the cap discharge to a "soft down" situation set by the dimmer.
D - When finished in the kitchen, the switch can be turned off. 
Couple of things I'm not sure of though; 
1. The single tranny cap arrangement - there would be 25Amps at play here which I assume is a lot for a "little" cap. Might be better to run 6x12VDC tranny's and 6 caps at 4 Amps. Comments appreciated. 
2. Motion detectors usually have a timer start when motion is detected. Some then count down to an off condition despite any new movement that may be detected - hence you have to wave your arms around every time to get it on again. I'd prefer the counter to restart as long as there is any "new" movement detected. Not sure what the terminology is for deseminating each type of motion detector. Help appreciated so I can specify/seach for the correct one. 
3. Not sure if a leading or trailing edge dimmer would be best. I suspect for electronic tranny's a trailing and for iron core trannys....a leading. Not sure how either of these would behave with an RC circuit on the end - I'm thinking an iron core DC tranny at this stage. _Not sure if you can get electronic DC trannys anyways._  _Dreaming - I would prefer an electronic solution if there are any tech heads out there.....there may be some added functionality available from this solution where a 555 Timer could turn the whole system off from the "dim - standby" mode after say 5minutes of stillness (timer req.) and then soft on to full power if new motion is detected (no timer required)._  _PS - I have noticed with trailing edge dimmer on a 12V system the soft on is already present. This happens with my under bench lighting. Not sure this is useful though. It is still sharp off._   *EDITED POST*: *Cross Forum Link Removed again* *Watson*

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## chrisp

> B - When motion is detected, the motion sensor would close and path of least resistance would cause lights to "soft up" via the cap to full power.
> C - When motion is no longer detected, the reverse would occur and the cap discharge to a "soft down" situation set by the dimmer.

  It won't work! 
What will happen in step is that the lights will be bright (or dimmed, if via the dimmer) for a brief period and then fade off completely as the capacitor charges. 
What you want is a dirty big inductor rather than a big capacitor.  :Rolleyes:  
But more seriously, there are better techniques than trying to put a time-constant in the _power_ circuit.  The trick is to put such time-constants _within_ the dimmer _control_ circuit (and not the power circuit). 
For bang-for-bucks, I think Applied has presented a good solution.

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## applied

Just for a laugh where exactly are you going to get a 25amp @ 12volt transformer and cap for less than the $52 it would cost you to buy soft stars transformers and globes off the shelf? 
Just incase I need to start a small car off the mains it would be nice to know.

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## watson

That one tickled me  :Rotfl:

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## Dave_KB

A few years ago Silicon Chip magazine had a project that built a dimmer into a powerboard, the whole thing was IR controlled.  It could ramp up/down. 
You could probably adapt this, or at least use it as the basis.  Silicon Chip Online - Remote-Controlled Automatic Table Lamp Dimmer

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## Billy22Bob

a mill....

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## jago

> A few years ago Silicon Chip magazine had a project that built a dimmer into a powerboard, the whole thing was IR controlled.  It could ramp up/down. 
> You could probably adapt this, or at least use it as the basis.  Silicon Chip Online - Remote-Controlled Automatic Table Lamp Dimmer

  
HPM and others do IR controlled rampable dimmers that  you could possibly use with a sensor.

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## Billy22Bob

might ring the supplier today and see how much these blue led jobbies are.....very flash but prolly getting up to $80 ea. http://www.hpm.com.au/Uploads/HPM-Pu...ton-Dimmer.pdf 
Bought a standard 400W one for the job from bunnings just yesterday.
Will do some testing over Xmas of the following circuit.
2 things I have a concern about... 
a) I am worried about is the delta Volts coming from the dimmer into the sensor light when the sensor is open circuit. Are these units simple enough to take a Voltage on the downstream leg when they are open? 
b) When they are closed and the dimmer is dimmed - say to 40% - there will be a delta Volts across the dimmer (maybe not if they are Pulse width) will this cope with the full 240V at it's downstream leg. 
Applied - pls have a look and confirm okay. 
TIA

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## applied

It is illegal and dangerous for un trained persons to do or modify fixed wiring and little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than none.  
Hopefully your electrician can work it out as this is not a common lighting setup!  
The only advice that I will give is to get a quality motion sensor that does not cycle but stays on as long as there is movement with three wires as you will be limited to what you can do with a two wire model.

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## Billy22Bob

I had a hand yesterday to setup the circuit on a test bench with 1 downlight.
Worked - no major issues, but;
soft start wasnt very soft,
of course off is not soft and 
ceiling motion sensor makes an on/off click - not sure if this will be annoying in the kitchen or not. 
Aside from this, when dimmed the 50W 12V halogen is still using 25W...obviously very inefficent technology. That means 150W on dim for the six. Possibly not worth the dimmer $$+trouble  _Unfortunately it will be a couple of years before LED's are warm white/60deg/comparable lumens etc....and cheap enuf....$5ea._

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## applied

You should try sourcing a universal dimmer that uses phase cut and zero crossing instead of cheap nasty leading and trailing ones these give a much smoother startup especially compounded with the soft starts. 
If you use a clipsal 753 or PDL 100cf360 the click should be a lot less apparent. 
If you've got access to a few downlights try the test again but try to run the dimmer near full load see if your efficiency improves. You could even source some 35watt globes that's all I use now as there's no difference in the output of the light as they use a different cooling gas whitch means the elements can run at a higher temp a box of ten is about 11bucks at woolies. 
Also compare the energy cost to the setup cost of a similar cbus or other automation system to do the same thing I suspect it would be a while before this becomes the expensive option. 
What sort of wattage were you expecting to get 50% reduction seems reasonably good considering you have changed nothing except throw in a dimmer whitch only chops off part of the frequency essentially using most likely more than 50% of it? Remembering the transformers have a 10~watt loss.

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## Billy22Bob

> A few years ago Silicon Chip magazine had a project that built a dimmer into a powerboard, the whole thing was IR controlled. It could ramp up/down. 
> You could probably adapt this, or at least use it as the basis.  Silicon Chip Online - Remote-Controlled Automatic Table Lamp Dimmer

  
Had a look for a copy on line - no luck.
Local store Altronics also supports some of these kits- no luck either.
If I could get a pdf - great - but no luck yet.

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## Billy22Bob

just noticed they did obviously come out as a preconstructed unit through DSE... Lot of 2 x Remote Control Automatic Table Lamp Dimmer Kits - ALLBIDS Auction 441569

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## Billy22Bob

> You should try sourcing a universal dimmer that uses phase cut and zero crossing instead of cheap nasty leading and trailing ones these give a much smoother startup especially compounded with the soft starts. 
> If you use a Clipsal 753R or PDL 100cf360 the click should be a lot less apparent.

  Had a squiz at the dimmers you mentioned. Did a run around on Friday (B4 Xmas break) to see if I could find an apprpriate dimmer. Only one I could come up with at the time was a $55 jobbie that performed as stated above - but they said if it didnt suit my needs, just return it for full refund.
The local electrical wholesaler had some for $99 and $189. But based on cost I shied away from these - they may very well be the ones you refer to - the 753R and the PDL. Unfortunately if I purchase those for testing I cant return them. So I gotta be sure.
The external relay box (in the ceiling) would iradicate the clicking issue. _Cheers for the help._ 
First plan is to rack up a few DLs in parallel and see if things improve.
next - take the $55 jobbie back
wait until after Xmas when wholesaler will reopen and I will look at 753 or PDL. _I'm running 2 projects in parallel - also building an Altronics OBDII kit for monitoring my mercedes onboard ECU (codes and analogue outputs)._ 
I will pursue this dimmer idea as it offers a "professional" modern/snazzy/different feel to home lighting - a trend we've carried in many things throughout the house (albeit a little on the exxie side).

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## applied

Where abouts in aus are you I have one of the pdl sensors with the separate controll box in the shed I would part with the relay is mounted about 150mm from the sensor but you could extend it to whatever length you like if noise is an issue.  
$55 for the dimmer is a pretty good price the trade price is about 55.20 those sensors are about $84

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## Billy22Bob

interesting....I'm an hour south of Sydney NSW 
to avoid confusion - I should have used the word "360deg motion sensor" instead of "dimmer".
I did have a look at one for $49, but it was even bulkier and less attractive.
The Clipsal 753R or PDL 100cf360 look neater and less obtrusive.  _Also looking for some sort of diy electronic circuit that might do-da-bidness - would still need the motion sensor though - the electronics would simply be a 555 timer and soft up/down/dim._ 
b22b

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## Billy22Bob

I found a reference to such an animal here. Hi/Lo Motion Activated Lighting | Home Security Guru

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## Billy22Bob

Just an Update.....  The 6 x 240V GU10 50W globes were all changed out fro $14 soft start tranny 12V types
a $15 cheappie Crompton wall sensor and HPM trailing edge dimmer put in parallel and tested. 
Seemed to work okay although the majority of the time when the lights are dimmed and you walk in the kitchen, the sensor ciruit takes over and there is not much ramp up. I guess just the standard 340ms soft start. Problem was trying to get the dim down lower than 50% amps. The dimming circuit would seem to go into a cyclic dim and the lights would fade off at any setting <50% current (which is still faily bright). I was thinking maybe there needs to be at least one 240V-50W blb in the circuit for stability. 
The trailing edge dimmer was replaced with the old leading edge dimmer and this worked a treat and we could dim the lights down to 25% current. Although we dont know what damage(if any) this may cause to the downstream tranny's - you're supposed to use trailing edge dimmers for these lights. 
So we could dim the lights in the "standby state" to 25% power draw which was just right, but the "on state" (through the sensor circuit ) may need to be trimmed (very bright) and maybe it could be soft started.
As a final measure, whilst retaining the leading edge dimmer on the "standby circuit", the trailing edge dimmer was place in series downstream of the sensor. Testing is still underway, but looks promising.

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## Billy22Bob

Got a copy of the "automatic lamp dimmer circuit" from the local library yesterday. Main items are a proprietary PIC chip which does "the lot", a triac and some caps/resistors for control. Looks quite simple (thanks to the chip - wonderful things arent they) but its only rated for 150W max, so would have to have someone help me re-engineer it for 400W. I would assume this would be a simple upsize on the misc. components. Also I wouldnt want the IR chip for remote control - rather utilise some alternate switching - eg: when you activate the wall plate switch, this simply signals the circuit to shutdown (on its 2-12second ramp) and then it does the main switching at the end.

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