# Forum Home Renovation Tools & Products  Is there a bog/filler that doesn't....

## PlatypusGardens

....go off after ten seconds in the QLD climate! 
Seriously, it's driving me nuts.  :Annoyed:  
No matter how little I mix up I always seem to throw 1/3 away as it goes off before I can slap it all on.      :Gaah:

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## goldie1

Never had a problem with temperature. Are you putting to much hardener in it

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## cyclic

> Never had a problem with temperature. Are you putting to much hardener in it

  Correct. 
The more Hardener, the quicker the reaction.
Use less hardener. 
And if you are doing large areas, mix a small lot and sand back, then mix some more.
Any mix should be good for 10 to 15 minutes, BUT, the earlier you stop spreading it the better.
If you are doing walls where it is drooping then do small lots each a time.

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## Random Username

Epoxy with slow hardener.

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## PlatypusGardens

Hey, I didn't just buy a tin of bog for the first time in my life last week...
Been doing this for a long time.  
Am from Europe, never had this problem over there...
Lived in Perth for a while, no dramas there.
QLD - definitely a different kettle of fish. 
Using the minimal amount of hardener possible.
It still goes off on the mixing plate before I get to use it all.
Have tried a number of different products all with the same result. 
It's not AS BAD in winter but during the summer months it's near impossible to mix and use anything over a tablespoon amount before it sets....    
10-15 min?
More like 10-15 SECONDS!  
I'm only doing small stuff like covering countersunk screws etc.   :Smilie:      

> Epoxy with slow hardener.

  brand/product?    :Smilie:

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## PlatypusGardens

"Working time 3-8 minutes"   
Pfffftttt     :No:

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## Marc

> ....go off after ten seconds in the QLD climate! 
> Seriously, it's driving me nuts.  
> No matter how little I mix up I always seem to throw 1/3 away as it goes off before I can slap it all on.

  The cheap two part putty are mostly polyester resin. Polyester needs an accelerant and a catalyst to harden. To make things simpler and to keep catalyst and accelerant apart since they can not be mixed, the resin contains accelerant already. The amount of accelerant should vary according to temperature however you have no control over it, that is why the catalyst you add even if you reduce it to below the recommended amount, it still hardens too quickly. There is no solution to this unless the manufacturer decides to have two products with higher and lower accelerant in the mix.  lowering the catalyst to minimal amounts will result in a partial reaction and an inferior product. You could try to keep the bog in the fridge, but once you mix and apply it I doubt it would make much of a difference. You could try to find moderating agent to slow down the exothermic reaction from someone that sells resins for the marine industry.  https://books.google.com.au/books?id...0resin&f=false   
Of course if you really wanted you could make your own bog. Get Polyester resin, industrial talcum powder, accelerant and catalyst. Try small amounts until you get the amount of accelerant right for your climate. Then you can pre-accelerate the resin, mix with talcum and add catalyst when you are ready to use. The resin supplier should be able to help. 
Epoxy is way dearer to be used for bog. Epoxy seems to be slower only because the hardening process can not be controlled as it is possible with polyester by varying the components in fact with epoxy you should never do this. Epoxy gel time is dependent from temperature. Hotter is quicker, colder is slower. below 20C hardly anything happens.

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## PlatypusGardens

Thanks for the science input Marc, you do seem to know a lot about chemistry etc.
(no sarcasm)  
I can't be the only person with this issue.
Well I know I'm not as other people up here face the same problem.
Nobody seems to have a solution other than "mix less stuff" though.   :Smilie:

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## PlatypusGardens

Come on central/north QLD people.
help me out here   :Smilie:

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## PlatypusGardens

Of course the upside is you only have to wait approximately 1 stubby before sanding    :Rofl:

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## Marc

I have used builders bog many times and every time I throw out half of the mix or more. And I am in Sydney. It is a fine balance for the manufacturer, produce a crap product that sells twice as much as is used, or make a quality product that sells less ...

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## goldie1

> Come on central/north QLD people.
> help me out here

  Born and raised and worked in FNQ   quite a way north of Mackay  I know temperature speeds up  
the setting time but as I said I never had any real probs using it.  Could it be old stock. 
If stored a long time particularly  in high temps it speeds up the setting time. Also are you using it in direct  
sunlight.  May be you could store it in the esky with your stubbies

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## PlatypusGardens

> Born and raised and worked in FNQ   quite a way north of Mackay  I know temperature speeds up  
> the setting time but as I said I never had any real probs using it.  Could it be old stock. 
> If stored a long time particularly  in high temps it speeds up the setting time. Also are you using it in direct  
> sunlight.  May be you could store it in the esky with your stubbies

   
Nah in the shed, with aircon. 
old stock..... Who knows, maybe once or twice, been an ongoing problem for the 10 years I've been here tho.....  
Yeh will try sticking it in the fridge     :Smilie:

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## Bedford

Linseed Oil Putty.  Selleys Special Putty | Selleys Australia

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## PlatypusGardens

> Linseed Oil Putty.  Selleys Special Putty | Selleys Australia

  
Thanxxx  
will give it a shot!

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## Random Username

West Epoxy - you'll find it at boat shops.  About $50 for a litre.  The hardener comes in fast, medium, slow and clear varieties (the clear is for when you use it as a varnish). Roughly 5/15/30 min working time respectively...you can go for longer if you store the tins in the fridge for a few hours before you want to use them. 
It is essentially everything that polyester bog claims to be -  it sticks to wood tenaciously (the timber will tear before the epoxy lets go), sets hard or soft (you can vary the hardness, all the way from easy sanding by using talc or flour as a filler, to 'not gunna touch this' with aluminium or silica or granite filler), tints with oxides or dye colours (it's transparent, so you can use it with a bit of black and red dye for an excellent looking sap inclusion-like filler for use on visible knots). 
Waterproof, as in you can build boats with it.  Cleans up with vinegar if it's not set, but mechanical removal only once set. 
Drawbacks - Doesn't like UV - needs to be painted/varnished if used outside.  Has to be mixed accurately - no 'that looks near 'nuff right' mixing.

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## paddyjoy

> West Epoxy

  Does it shrink?

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## Random Username

> Does it shrink?

  No, no shrinking.  If you're really keen, you can use it to create a surface plate for precision measurement - TableTopPlate

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## PlatypusGardens

Most of the stuff I do is cover screws and fill cracks.  
will look at the ones recommended but please keep it coming.
much appreciated.    :Smilie:

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## Oldsaltoz

Adding Micro Balloons to a mix of epoxy resin results in a very easy to sand surface, used when fairing hulls on boats. 
100% Waterproof and tougher than hard wood. makes a fantastic glue for timber as well. 
 Fully cures in 24 hours but can be sanded after 12 hours depending on temperature and humidity. 
Adding extra hardener will do nothing bust cost you more. 
Only draw back is it will self destruct if exposed to UV light, so needs painting and if varnish is to be applied look one with a high UV rating and apply several coats. 
My front door faces East, I sanded and coated with West System epoxy and 4 coats of high UV block varnish over 15 years ago and it still looks great. 
Even though it's in tropical Queensland. 
Good luck and fair winds.   :Smilie:

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## Bros

Micro ballons or glass bubbles is great stuff to use to make sanding easier but hold you breath when adding it as they just float away with the slightest puff of air.

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## Marc

Ha ha, good one ... I used to know a guy who manufactured epoxy resin. The stuff is so dangerous to make that he had a reactor the size of a silo, in the middle of a paddock made of concrete with side and floor about one meter thick concrete and a very light roof. I asked him about the roof being so flimsy on such solid walls, he told me it was his "fuse". Then he took me to see the "other" roofs.  Scattered around the property he had 3 or 4 mangled up roof structure the result of a run off reaction they couldn't control.  :Yikes2:

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## Marc

Yes, epoxy is great and glues to timber like the proverbial, polyester does not, however for the purpose of the OP, home made polyester putty is cheap and easy to control and makes for good filler at a quarter of the price of epoxy ... or ... you can use linseed oil putty ... gee ... I just remembered that as a kid I use to make my own linseed oil putty. We used to mix glassier putty with red anti rust paint to caulk the boat. That is stone age stuff ha ha

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## Oldsaltoz

> Ha ha, good one ... I used to know a guy who manufactured epoxy resin. The stuff is so dangerous to make that he had a reactor the size of a silo, in the middle of a paddock made of concrete with side and floor about one meter thick concrete and a very light roof. I asked him about the roof being so flimsy on such solid walls, he told me it was his "fuse". Then he took me to see the "other" roofs.  Scattered around the property he had 3 or 4 mangled up roof structure the result of a run off reaction they couldn't control.

  Hi Marc,
I would love to hear what the cause of the big bang was. Been using he old epoxy based resins for more years than I member and had the odd reaction when adding too much hardener or a lay-up that was in the thick side and encountered my first exothermic reaction. 
But have never had anything like an explosion. 
Good luck and fair winds.   :Smilie:

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## Oldsaltoz

> Yes, epoxy is great and glues to timber like the proverbial, polyester does not, however for the purpose of the OP, home made polyester putty is cheap and easy to control and makes for good filler at a quarter of the price of epoxy ... or ... you can use linseed oil putty ... gee ... I just remembered that as a kid I use to make my own linseed oil putty. We used to mix glassier putty with red anti rust paint to caulk the boat. That is stone age stuff ha ha

  Hi Marc,
I thought I was only boat mad person on the forum old enough to remember caulking timber boats. Pretty much a lost art today sadly. 
Took weeks to wear the tar off you hands, and a month to get the last of it from under your finger nails and the smell got into your clothing as well, or so Mum kept reminding me.  :Annoyed:  
I have built, repaired, modified and sailed all manner of boats and still sailing today. They were right when they told me don't get into sailing it will ruin your life, but your you will enjoy it.  :Smilie:

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## Bros

> They were right when they told me don't get into sailing it will ruin your life, but your you will enjoy it.

  Like standing under the shower tearing up money.

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## PlatypusGardens

Better than blowing it on the Pokies though I suppose

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## Oldsaltoz

> Better than blowing it on the Pokies though I suppose

  BOAT =  Break Out Another Thousand. 
Well I'm not taking it to my grave so why not enjoy it.   :Smilie:

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## Bros

> BOAT =  Break Out Another Thousand.

  I haven't heard hat one before but as a half owner of an 11m fishing boat in the past we were eating fish that had gold scales. Marvelous where your friends disappear to when come anti fouling time

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## Oldsaltoz

> I haven't heard hat one before but as a half owner of an 11m fishing boat in the past we were eating fish that had gold scales. Marvellous where your friends disappear to when come anti fouling time

  We had a really good system for anti fouling, as most boats atr all lifted for the annual clean and anti foul , we simply got 3 or 4 others involved and the deal was, have your hull full prepared and masting tape applied by (enter a certain date). 
Then on the day I would roll up with the airless spray gun, do their boats and my own and share the the total expense between us all. 
It only takes 10 to 15 minutes of spraying to complete each one. 
Happy Daze.

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## Marc

> Hi Marc,
> I would love to hear what the cause of the big bang was. Been using he old epoxy based resins for more years than I member and had the odd reaction when adding too much hardener or a lay-up that was in the thick side and encountered my first exothermic reaction. 
> But have never had anything like an explosion. 
> Good luck and fair winds.

  Manufacturing the base epoxy resin is not the same as the end use. Yes the gelling of the resin is exothermic but the mix of chemicals to make the actual epoxy resin is a different game altogether. I am not too familiar with the manufacturing process but anything that includes mixing large amounts of reactive chemical compounds has it's risks. "Vigorous Polymerisation" is not fun ... apparently  :Smilie:  
One of the biggest challenges when making anything that includes a chemical reaction is the consistency in the product supplied and from my own experience manufacturing PVC glue, there is no such thing as consistency and you have to make adjustments to your process with each batch.  
Wikipedia has an article covering the basics of how epoxy resin is made and it's different classes and uses, here is a copy of the most common epoxy resin, the Bisphenol A:  *Bisphenol A epoxy resin[edit]*  The most common and important class of epoxy resins is formed from reacting epichlorohydrin with bisphenol A to form diglycidyl ethers of bisphenol A. The simplest resin of this class is formed from reacting two moles of epichlorohydrin with one mole of bisphenol A to form the bisphenol A diglycidyl ether (commonly abbreviated to DGEBA or BADGE). DGEBA resins are transparent colourless-to-pale-yellow liquids at room temperature, with viscosity typically in the range of 5-15 Pa.s at 25 °C. Industrial grades normally contain some distribution of molecular weight, since pure DGEBA shows a strong tendency to form a crystalline solid upon storage at ambient temperature. 
Structure of bisphenol-A diglycidyl ether epoxy resin: _n_ denotes the number of polymerized subunits and is typically in the range from 0 to 25 Increasing the ratio of bisphenol A to epichlorohydrin during manufacture produces higher molecular weight linear polyethers with glycidyl end groups, which are semi-solid to hard crystalline materials at room temperature depending on the molecular weight achieved. As the molecular weight of the resin increases, the epoxide content reduces and the material behaves more and more like a thermoplastic. Very high molecular weight polycondensates (ca. 30 000 – 70 000 g/mol) form a class known as phenoxy resins and contain virtually no epoxide groups (since the terminal epoxy groups are insignificant compared to the total size of the molecule). These resins do however contain hydroxyl groups throughout the backbone, which may also undergo other cross-linking reactions, e.g. with aminoplasts, phenoplasts and isocyanates.  
................and, from an OHS website ........... *What is vigorous polymerization?*  Polymerization is a chemical reaction in which many small molecules (monomers) join together to form a large molecule (polymer). Often the reaction produces heat and pressure. Industry carries out these processes under closely monitored conditions. Other chemicals (catalysts and initiators) and controlled amounts of heat, light and pressure are often involved. Vigorous polymerization is potentially hazardous because the reaction may get out of control. Once started, the reaction is accelerated by the heat that it produces. The uncontrolled buildup of heat and pressure can cause a fire or an explosion, or can rupture closed containers. Depending on the material, temperature increases, sunlight, ultraviolet (UV) radiation, X-rays or contact with incompatible chemicals can trigger such reactions. Many pure substances (i.e. uninhibited) can undergo vigorous polymerization quite easily by themselves when they are heated slightly or exposed to light. These include:  acrylic acidacrylonitrilecyclopentadienediketeneethyl acrylatehydrocyanic acidmethacrylic acidmethyl acrylatevinyl acetate

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## mudbrick

To the OP, the rule of thumb for chemical reactions such as the hardening of your bog is the rate of reaction doubles with every 10 degree rise in ambient temperature.  (C) 
So in Qld on a hot day you would quite likely have only half or a third the working time in summer as you would in winter.
putting the bog tin in the fridge is a good idea and maybe even your mixing plate too. There could be a point where the big is too cold and won't work properly but it doesnt sound like that's likely to be a problem.

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## Marc

Another thing to try besides the fridge, if you are really desperate and the fridge does not work, buy catalyst for Vinylester resin. When used for Polyester resin it is slower

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## Marc

Another thing to try besides the fridge, if you are really desperate and the fridge does not work, buy catalyst for Vinylester resin. When used for Polyester resin it is slower

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## PlatypusGardens

Thanks for all the input, guys.   :Smilie:

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