# Forum Home Renovation Heating & Cooling  Nobo  heat panels

## mia

Sorry I dont have time to  introduce myself ( in a rush)  I wnat to buy a Nobo 2000 watt  Nobo heat panel for a  smallish  3 bedroom house  at the  bottom of Mount Bogong in Victoria..  gets  very icy and  averages  minus  4 over  night.   wood is  too expensive now and  I know  ther Nobo is 12 cents an hour. . the new E  line sounds perfect ..  could anyone telkl me where to buy   one at the cheapest  price ?   and would one  be enough for a  lounge room  & small  kitchen  area?   I dont like hot bedrooms and have a warm bed and  a window open  even in winter.,.   not too  far   :Smilie:    any help would be appreciated..   Harvey Norman is  more expensive than the Good Guys ?   I  would be buying it from Wodonga,.  Albury or Wangaratta.  :Biggrin:  any help  appreciated..  thank  you . .Mia

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## Master Splinter

How well it heats more than a single room will depend on house design, the amount of insulation in walls and ceiling, windows and curtains, all that sort of stuff.   
If there is a standard doorway between the two rooms, you wont get any real heat transfer into the other room - you need a pretty big opening to get natural convection to do the work! 
Don't get too enthused by the running costs; their estimates are based on a 50% duty cycle, so it's only on half the time.  It wouldn't surprise me if a 2000 watt heater needed to be on continually to warm your place if insulation is lacking. 
If price is an issue, just get a standard thermostatically controlled 2,400 watt plug-in oil filled column radiator - you can pick these up from about $80, and they are just as efficient, energy wise, as the Nobo or any other electric heater (100% efficiency).   
For any improvement over that, you'll need to move to reverse cycle air conditioning which will give you up to 350% efficiency.

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## Bloss

:What he said:  these are just an expensive way to buy an electric radiator with even heat a timer and a thermostat. As Master Splinter says you can get equivalent performance with an equivalently rated (in watts) oil column heater which is also even heat, has wheels, come with thermostats and timers and clothes racks etc and are a fraction of the price.  :2thumbsup:  
Although as Master Slpinter says they are 'efficient' (not quite 100% but very close) that refers to the operation as a local heater and user of the energy in the house. The energy delivered to the house to power that electric heater in Australia gets there at about 25% efficiency off the grid.  :Frown:  Heat pumps and other efficient forms of heating are best - and spend any savings on getting an oil column and not the Nobo on some insulation or just some warmer clothes & bedding! No such thing as bad weather - only wrong clothes!

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## mia

Okay  thank  you,    the one I am  looking at is in the E series and is  $475  ..at one place and  over  $500 at another..   its  the 2000 watt  model. .  I am more interested  in warmth   really, would  it be warm in a  smallish   loungeroom /kitchen?     its onoy meant for this area. .   not a large  lougeroom, very old  house as all  the houses are in this  town,  built for the SEC in the late  40's and early 50's . . its a toss up with getting an old conarra  fixed. .waffle plates buckled andi t needs a new tray and then wood  @  $90  -100  a metre and  a metre  lasts  10 days aprox. .  this  old  Coonara   is   in the wall and is  big.. has a  big wood  box. .  or. . .  the  Novo ..  for the main eating/living area..  it  must be  insulated I have never looked, as its quite cool  in very  hot summers  ( well  the air con is on too)  lots of trees to keep  it shady and   the winters havent been too bad. . so far . .  the wood was  great   but  horribly expensive  now..    I bought a  Rinai  gas heater and that was useless  as it chewed up gas   in a second..  I only have  bottled gas here ..  so that was sold off. ..  that was  $1000  , and hopeless.  so  the only  option  now is the Nobo.   I have a small  oil column heater which I use  in the  bedroom or  anywhere,  its  okay ..   not mad about it. .  none of these heaters have any ambience and thats what makes  a place  look cosy and feel cosier..  so you think a Nobo is   just a glorified  radiator  ?  I wonder if a  radiator where I could see  the  glowing element would be just as good  ,, a 2000 watt  also ..  I dont know what  brands are good or bad. .its a headache  & a   hassle.   any more advice  gratefully accepted. .  :Smilie:

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## mia

OKay ..   well  the bed is  warm , very  warm,   just the way the pug  likes it   :Smilie:    and I dont  like   stuffy bedrooms anyway,   the small oil column heater I have is  not warm at all,   its  only a  little one though . . about  6  coils?    I   just dont know what a larger  oil column heater would be like as the small one is  not  cosy ..  I would need the 2000  watt  Nobo for the area, Im, sure it would be warm but if there is a cosier  alternative  anyone   knows of  , I would love to hear from you.  Thankyou for   helping. . ( cost is   important..   but  heat is  more so )  thanks :Smilie:  Mia

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## mia

"If price is an issue, just get a standard thermostatically controlled 2,400 watt plug-in oil filled column radiator - you can pick these up from about $80, and they are just as efficient, energy wise, as the Nobo or any other electric heater (100% efficiency). "  
Master Splinter,   these 2400 watt  plug in oil  filled  column radiators. . .  are they as warm as  the 2000 watt  nobo ?    its really all about warmth . .   would I need two ?  and   is the  cost  around the same as a nobo ?   not excessively high  ?   if they are as warm, perhaps two. or   I guess any   2400 watt   electric heater would be the same ?   heat wise?    thank you  :Smilie:

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## mia

I mean  running cost . .. the   oil   one and  the   nobo ..  about the same ?   again tho. . its the heat  output, which   electric heater is the warmest ..   I hate electric heating but   have no choice really. .  thanks again ....so  lets forget   cost . . running cost ..and go for the warmest   :Smilie:    thanks

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## Bloss

> "If price is an issue, just get a standard thermostatically controlled 2,400 watt plug-in oil filled column radiator - you can pick these up from about $80, and they are just as efficient, energy wise, as the Nobo or any other electric heater (100% efficiency). "  
> Master Splinter,   these 2400 watt  plug in oil  filled  column radiators. . .  are they as warm as  the 2000 watt  nobo ?    its really all about warmth . .   would I need two ?  and   is the  cost  around the same as a nobo ?   not excessively high  ?   if they are as warm, perhaps two. or   I guess any   2400 watt   electric heater would be the same ?   heat wise?    thank you

   :What he said:  - They are cheaper and just as warm - in fact 400W warmer . . . A 2000 or 2400 watt simple radiator is not as effective because it puts out concentrated heat in a small area so is mainly radiant and not much convection and they are not as safe either (elements are usually visible albeit with protecting barriers of some sort). 
A 2400 watt fan heater can be OK but tends to create drafts and there is the fan noise (if used with a thermostat the running cost will be similar) Both the Nobo and the oil columns use an additional means to balance the heat output to be more even and to spread it over a larger area through a small amount of radiant and a lot of convective heat. The running cost is totally related to how long the heater is on to get the comfort you want. 
Two types that use that secondary method to even the heat out (Nobo & oil) will be the same running costs given the timer and thermostat settings used are the same. The difference is that the Nobo might be thought to look prettier (and since you really just want it function as an effective heater who cares?) and the oil column will be much cheaper to buy (and no dearer to run). 
The other thing is to spend some time looking at simple way to stop heat loss - any gaps around windows and doors can be blocked off with cheap foam strips and so on. If you have wall vents these can be filled or covered so none of you costly heat escapes. See: http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs62.html for hints about heating and cooling.  :2thumbsup:

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## Master Splinter

Heat is heat, especially when it comes from electricity.  2,400 watts is, like Bloss said, 400 watts more than 2,000, so it will provide nearly a quarter more heat.  
As a 2,400 watt heater has a higher total output than a 2,000 watt one, it will be able to get a room up to your comfortable temperature faster; once at that temperature, the thermostat will cycle it on and off to maintain it.  (I have a suspicion that a larger model would be slightly more efficient as it would get up to temp / recover losses faster, but I think it would really be hair splitting) 
The Nobos are just a simple resistance element type of heater - exactly the same sort of thing as you will find in your kettle or oven or radiant heater or even your hair dryer; the only difference is that the resistance of the element is worked out so that heating occurs over a larger area so that it doesn't get too hot if accidentally touched.   
Oil column heaters are a bit more like a kettle in design; a smaller element that gets much hotter - but it is in a large oil bath so that the oil heats up and transfers the heat to the fins of the radiator, and the larger surface area for heat transfer means that it stays at a not-too-hot-if-touched temperature. 
Your bedroom heater is probably a 1,000 or 1,200 watt model - just check on the manufacturer's plate on it (usually just near where the plug lead connects) and it will tell you.  (might be in amps, to covert amps to watts, just multiply by 240 - so if it says 5 amps, that's 1,200 watts). 
If you have a reasonable amount of insulation, and not too big a room, 2,400 watts should be able to do it, but you'll find that it will be slow to heat the room (say an hour, hour and a half to get it from outside temp to 20 degrees).   
But if you had a gas heater, and it was chewing through the gas...it does suggest that you might need extra insulation - gas can deliver up to 90% of its energy content as heat, so it's actually quite an efficient heat source. 
As you are talking about feeling warm - to me it sounds like you need something that actually puts out heat you can really feel when you stand in front of it. 
...in which case a Nobo type heater would be low on the list as they use a large surface area, warmed to 40-50 degrees, which doesn't really lend itself to the 'sitting in front of a wood fire' feeling.  
If that's the sort of effect you are after, have a look at some of the new-fangled bar heaters that come complete with thermostats and fans (for example of what I mean, see here http://www.myshopping.com.au/ZM--385484333_Heaters  ...no recommendation, just the first site I found with pics of what I'm talking about).  And yes, their 2,400 watts would be just the same, heat wise, as any other 2,400 watt heater.

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## Eastie

I'd say oil heaters act a little more on the radiant principle than convection, therefore comparing wattage alone is not apples for apples in relation to performance. Panel heaters use convection to induct and draw air over an element as opoposed to allowing free air flow around an element - may seem insignificant but it vastly influences the performance. As mentioned the face of the convection panels doesn't get hot - a major advantage if you have kids. Having experienced both I would take a convection panel over a radiant column as they heat up quickly and in my experience the air circulation gets rooms warm in a relatively short time compared to radiant heaters. There are cheaper versions of the nobo available that are just as good (e.g. Noirot - look them up on google, they are on ebay now and then). Timer function models are great if you want to cut back on use to night only or morning only etc, as you can set multiple programs as well as operating them manually. I think The Good Guys have identical models to the nobo.

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## Bloss

> I'd say oil heaters act a little more on the radiant principle than convection, therefore comparing wattage alone is not apples for apples in relation to performance.

  You might say that but you'd be wrong. See: http://www.sustainability.vic.gov.au...le_heaters.pdf  which is a good info doc on heaters and says inter alia about column oil heaters:  _These heaters have electric elements immersed in oil, which heat their outer casing. They produce natural convective heat, as air is circulated over the surface of the fins, and also  emit some radiant heat._ 
As it says, principally convection is how oil column heaters work - and placement within a room is very important just as it is with flat panel or any convection heaters. The column heaters are a smaller physical size, but the _surface area_ on a column heater can easily equal or exceed a flat panel heater and that's why they are so effective. It's about value for money on capital cost - running costs are in the control of the user so long as timers and thermostats are used.  :2thumbsup:  
But if aesthetics and perception is an issue and someone is happy to pay for it then the Nobo will work fine of course. My inference from the OP was that cost was a factor, but there seemed to be some misunderstanding about relative running costs which rapidly overtake purchase cost with all electric heaters (and others).  :Smilie:

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## mia

Thank  you Bloss,  a very  informative  message , I had  no idea   oil  column heaters would be as warm, I havent used  mine much, it just  comes in handy on a cool morning to take the  nip off as Bruce Ruxton used to sing lol ..  ( it's  42 degrees and theres a nip in  the air )   The Ruxton Rap . .antway I digress as usual. . . what  brand would  you recommend ?  mine has Celsius on it. .  I think Dimplex would be  a good brand..yes its all   in the   useage as to  how effective they are  economically,   so I shall certainly  look at them  in Albury soon ..  I have  also  checked on  Noirot  panel  heaters and can  get  a 2400 watt    one  delivered to me   , free castors,   dleivery fee  included , for  $345 ..from  this online  place  http://purchasenet.com.au/shopping/noirot-m-118.html         I dont know if they are dodgy or not  but   I am going to ask around , and am starting with you ...    :Smilie:

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## mia

Thanks also for  this site to check on heaters. .   I was going to get the Nobo from Harvey Norman and they charge  like wounded  bulls. . . $545  and  castors $30 . . .  some have  them cheaper. .  like the place I sent the address  . .  for the  panel ..  but I am  going to check out  the   oil columns too .. I am  hopeless  with  timers,  I think   that as soon as it rains  its freezing so  on go  all  the ehaters   in the  house and when its   hot  on go  two air cons. .   pro active I think  they call it,. .,   but I do like some  ambience and  the columns are  bland. .  but   . . if  as warm aand half  the price, I can buy  two ..  and in this chilly neck of the woods   two would be handy . .   I do appreciate  all the time and trouble  you take to reply with so much  info . .  thank    you  :Smilie:

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## mia

Thank  you Eastie,  I checked  out their website  ,  and also this  place where they sell on line.. and deliver to your door. . .    http://purchasenet.com.au/shopping/n...8.html....with castors  $345 ..   and delivery too . .   you can see the  2400 watt   one I am interested in ..   not as flat and   smart as  the NObo   but would work the same .     .I have only heard of Atlantic  heat panels as well as Nobo, I had  two  Atlantic panels  six  years ago,  one fell over  and  broke,  & then  when I turned it on a fuse  blew and  all  the lights  etc  .. went out    ??   and I sold the  other one,   I paid  $200   for each  one, $199   to be exact,    they were too small to be effective,   I dont know  how many watts  & I wasnt impressed with them  at all .,  I think   this deal  with  http://purchasenet.com.au/shopping/noirot-m-118.html   looks good as long as they are  honest ,  I hate Ebay  and I am  a little hesitant with  some  unknown  on line  sites. . I wonder where I could check it out. .   thank you for that info . .   :Smilie:

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## mia

What a lot of   info  Master Splinter !!   a wealth of  information    there,   thank you.   What does  this mean  ?  not much  difference  between  2000 and 2400 ?  
"As a 2,400 watt heater has a higher total output than a 2,000 watt one, it will be able to get a room up to your comfortable temperature faster; once at that temperature, the thermostat will cycle it on and off to maintain it. (I have a suspicion that a larger model would be slightly more efficient as it would get up to temp / recover losses faster, but I think it would really be hair splitting)" 
I think I will go for  2400 , do  they go any  higher ?    like  2500  or  3000 watts ?   I am thinking  that   the heat panel  might be safer as I have a pug and she likes to  jam her little  body   up against something and  the heat panel would not be as hot ?   or  is this  incorrect ?   I am leaning towards the heat panels as I know they cost 12 cents  an hour to run ..  so heat and economy . .I am  a little   hopeless in setting thermostats and  making sure Im on the right settings etc. .. I like to turn  something  on and let it go ; . or  rip .. ._  have a  little  gas heater  in the kitchen, a aloma .?   Italian, and I have  that on too .. its  very cosy  and takes  very little   gas.. .   I had a Rinnai  Mark 11  gas  heater,  around $1000 and  thats  the thing which  chewed up the gas..   but  bottled gas goes in a flash and is  so expensive. . if bought from Elgas..  never use Elgas  they are ruthless. . charge  30 dollars a bottle more than  other gas suppliers, charge for  delivery and charge   rental on their  bottles..  I found a place in Myrtleford who  are  60  kms away,   who  charge  88 dollars a bottle, no delivery fee and no rental .. .   so much  nicer_  _Natural gas would not  go through  copious quantities of gas like  bottled gas. . its  shocking. Thank  you again ..   could  you let me know what  you think of this  website ?  _   http://purchasenet.com.au/shopping/noirot-m-118.html  
I would really appreciate a second  or third or fourth ?  opinion ..   I am not sure  about websites and  havent bought anything  big  on line. . only from places I know. .  but I dont know this site at all. . .  again .. . thank  you all so much for all your help    :Smilie:

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## mia

My typos are terrible. I think its a PALOMA. . . am too lazy to go and  look,.   its small but perfect in my little  kitchen which is  attached to the living room ..   if you know  the  old  and quaint  SEC  houses in my town yu will  know   the sort of  little  kitchen and   living area   . .living area not small  but not   big  by a long shot. .     :Smilie:

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## mia

I just discovered this  one  at the same place  ,  http://purchasenet.com.au/shopping/a...er-p-1575.html 
its  a 2800   watt  heat panel. .  $370   delivered and  I think  thats including feet .. I did say I had two Atlantic panels  but they were small.   I wish I knew  how  many watts. .  just looked ,  I think  the remaining one which   blows  up  the  power   is 2000 watts, :Shock:   all  the writing on the  heater is  in Russian,   its going in the tip .. so  if  2000  watts   barely did anything to warm  up the  living room, I wonder what  2800 will do  ?   now I dont know which one will do ,,  here are the rough ,very  rough   until I find a  tape measure ,  measurements of  the loungeroom /kitchen, ,   the  kitchen is off  the  living room and is  not as long  but same width . .. 30 feet  by 30 feet by 20  feet  ?   ,  very rough  estimate as I was using my feet and my feet arent  one foot long , so   thats a bit dodgy .. but thats an approximate . So  thats the web address again,  if anyone can tell if  if they are  a trustworthy  web site I might see what  oil column heaters  they have too ..  2000 watts is  obviously not enough ., :No: .  and Atlantic,  same  brand. .  they also have Nobo and they are so expensive for  even less wattage  than  this one. .  thank   you in advance for  letting me know if you know anything about this website and where its located. .  http://purchasenet.com.au/shopping/a...er-p-1575.html 
I wouldnt be too happy to send  $345- 370  and not receive   a heater  :Shock:  
I have just discovered  smilies  :Wink 1:

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## Smurf

Some general technical info on heating (not related to any particular brand of heater). 
If your aim is to keep the air temperature inside above what it would otherwise be, then heat is pretty much heat regardless of the source. Electricity, oil, gas, wood, the sun shining through the windows - all will achieve the same result of warming the inside of the house. 
Only if you want the "sitting in front of the fire" effect of radiant heat does the source really become relevant. Some people just like that feeling whilst in other situations, for example heating a small part of a large warehouse or an outdoor dining area, radiant heat is the only practical option. 
I'll assume here that what you want is to warm the inside of the house. That is, you want the air at a comfortable temperature. In that case you want heat, but the source isn't really that important as long as there's enough of it and you can afford the cost. 
Fuel prices I'm using are for Tasmania since that's where I live and I have the data. You can adjust these figures using local fuel prices in your area to work out what is the cheapest option. 
Now, a word about *efficiency*. In this context it means how much heat you get out of the heater relative to how much fuel you put in. 
For example, a wood fire will lose some heat up the chimney so it must be less than 100% efficient. You have 100 units of heat in a load of wood, some goes up the chimney and something less than 100 units comes into the room. If you are losing 40% up the chimney and getting 60% into the room (typical for a slow combustion heater) then we'd say the heater is 60% efficient in its use of the fuel. 
Typical heater efficiencies: 
Reverse cycle air-conditioning - 300%
Electric - almost 100%
Gas - 80%
Old 1970's oil-fired heaters (those that burn oil, not electric column heaters) - 75%
Slow combustion wood - 60%
Pot belly stoves and similar non-slow combustion wood heaters - 30%
Open fire - 10% (90% of the heat goes up the chimney) 
Those figures are pretty widely accepted by energy utilities etc although some heater manufacturers will (sometimes legitimately) claim higher figures for individual heater models. The only one that isn't widely accepted is wood pellets - some manufacturers claim around 80% but the real world tests I've seen put it closer to 60%. 
Note that all these figures are for the fuel once it's already at your house. That is, turning the electricity, gas, wood etc into heat in your home. They ignore energy losses at power stations, gas works, fuel to run trucks transporting wood and so on. Those are very relevant if you're concerned about the environmental impact but aren't a financial issue as such since they're already factored into what you pay for the fuel.  *Units of measurement*. Kilowatt hours (kWh) is how electricity is sold and we can convert other fuels to an equivalent of this quite easily to enable easy comparisson. 
Electricity - sold by the kWh
Gas - usually sold by the MJ (megajoule). 3.6 MJ = 1 kWh
Oil, kero, diesel etc - roughly 10 kWh per litre
LPG - Just under 7 kWh per litre or 14 kWh per kilogram
Wood (20% moisture) - 4.5 kWh per kilogram (4500 kWh per tonne, roughly 2250 kWh per metre) for typical firewood.
Coal - varies but 6.7 to 7.8 kWh per kilogram for typical Australian black coal. The old brown coal briquettes were 6.22 kWh per kg.
Pellets - Some argument here but I'd take 5 kWh per kg as about right. 
So, *how do the costs compare in practice*? (Using Tas prices here) 
Reverse cycle air-conditioner. 1 kWh @ 11 cents for the electricity. 300% efficiency = 3 kWh of heat into the room for each 1 kWh of electricity consumed which works out at 3.7 cents per kWh ($0.11 / 3). 
Electric. 1 kWh @ 11 cents for the electricity. 100% efficiency = 1 kWh of heat into the room so it's 11 cents per kWh ($0.11 / 1). 
Natural Gas. 1.82c / MJ x 3.6 = 6.552c per kWh. 80% efficiency = 0.8 kWh of heat into the room so it works out at 8.2 cents per kWh ($0.06552 / 0.8). 
Heating oil. 10 kWh (1 litre) at about $1.30. 75% efficiency = 7.5 kWh of heat into the room so it works out at 17.3 cents per kWh ($1.30 / 7.5). 
LPG. 625 kWh @ $114 for a 45kg cylinder. 80% efficiency = 500 kWh of heat into the room so it's 22.8 cents per kWh ($114 / 500). 
Wood. 4500 kWh (1 tonne) @ $100 (typical, prices vary). 60% efficiency = 2700 kWh of heat into the room so it's 3.7 cents per kWh ($100 / 2700). 
Pellets. 5000 kWh (1 tonne) @ $400 (approx, I haven't checked for a while). 60% efficiency = 3000 kWh of heat into the room so it's 13.3 cents per kWh ($400 / 3000). 
So, simplifying all that and putting them in order from cheapest to most expensive: 
Reverse cycle air-conditioner: 3.7 cents / kWh
Wood (slow combustion heater): 3.7 cents / kWh
Natural gas: 8.2 cents / kWh
Electric: 11 cents / kWh (off-peak rate is 8.4 cents / kWh or 8.9 cents / kWh depending on hours of supply)
Pellets: 13.3 cents / kWh
Heating oil: 17.3 cents / kWh
LPG: 22.8 cents / kWh 
Note that all these costs are for 1 kilowatt hour of heat put into the room.  
How much the actual cost is, and how warm the heater keeps you, will depend on its size and how much insulation you have etc. For example, you could have a 5kW electric heater and that will cost 5 times as much as a 1kW electric heater and produce 5 times as much heat. Same with gas and any other fuel. 
I've tried to keep all that understandable but I'm happy to answer questions if anything isn't clear to anyone. Don't forget to check your local fuel prices before buying a heater - the relative prices of electricity, gas, LPG and wood do vary quite a lot around the country and what is cheapest in one location may be relatively expensive in another state.   :Smilie:  :Smilie:

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## Master Splinter

2,400 watts is the maximum you can draw from a standard domestic power point - if you wanted to install a higher wattage heater you'd need a sparky to wire it in permanently. 
If your past experience with heaters showed that a 2,000 watt heater barely heated up the room...you might need to investigate your insulation options! 
You might have thought it was performing poorly as the panel heaters don't put out a lot of concentrated heat - you can't really 'feel' that they are on from a meter or so away, unlike a wood or gas fire which is sitting there blasting out radiant heat. 
Personally, I wouldn't buy something heavy like a heater online as the shipping costs may well inflate the cost to more than a bricks and mortar store - and I don't like to buy sight-unseen unless I'm sure of the brand (so I'd probably buy a Dimplex online,...*but* only if I had checked them out recently in stores to see if they were still building a quality unit _or_ if they had done the magical transformation into being a brand name stickered onto a piece of craptacular chinese product.) 
As far as pet safety goes - all the cats I have known have always enjoyed wedging themselves between a Dimplex and the floor - they don't seem bothered by the temperature.  
It's a pity your air conditioners aren't reverse cycle; then you could heat with them!

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## mia

Thanks Splinter,.  its a headache  thats for sure. I just thought of another option as I have found a ags supplier who  charges  $88 a  bottle  as against Elgas who  charge like  wounded  bulls  @ $130  a bottle..  they also charge for  delivery and  rent . . ??  the other people dont. I had bought a Rinnai  portable gas heater and as gas was exorbitant I sold it. .  for less than half price  , six months old too . . sigh .,.  I have a little Paloma   gas heater in the kitchen and its  great ..  the next suze up is  a *PG-651S (11Mj) ..I have a  PG-451S (8Mj) in my tiny kitchen. .    the loungeroom is  twice as big as the kitchen , so  the whole area is not huge,   would  that size  ,  651S be suitable for the loungeroom and I could then have both going  ?  I   like seeing that  radiant glow and its warming  and anything warming is  cosy and good for the soul.  What  do you think of Paloma  portable   with no flue, heaters  ?  and does anyone know  how  much  bottled gas would  be used  if  they were both going  from   morning to  9-10 ish ?  pm?   one gas bottle  has  45kg. .  I dont know what that means. . LP gas.. going on useage  for 10  hours  daily. . .I know this is hard to work out  , sorry. I have now switched from electric  heating to gas..  now that the gas is cheaper from  a normal supplier as against   Elgas..I also  am not mad about  oil filled  fins and  heat panels , ,  yes and no. .  leaving only  wood and gas..  as the wood heater is useless  this leaves  bottled gas..  I should never have sold  the Rinnai Mark 11   but   we wish a lot of things  in hindsight. . does anyone know who sells  Paloma  portable gas heaters ?   these models ?  in Victoria ? or Albury ?  once again I would be  greateful for  your help,  so its  heat panels/  oil columns/  and gas. .  yes  both  my air cons are  box refrigerator ones,  both Panasonic and very good  ,but  no heating.  Cheers  & thanks again for all  your help and assistance. . . *

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## mia

Its a  dog. .  a pug. . a little fat  pug  , she  hunches  up  against   anything  warm. . the cats have become outdoor  cats and are verging on feral so  the pug is  number one  dog cocky  inside,  the cats usually sleep on a blanket in my car  so  they are fine and know where its warm. . I leave the  window down half way for  them ..   :Smilie:  luckily I dont have chooks !!

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## mia

Wow  Smurf,  what a  huge   answer, with so much  information,  thank  you so very very much, I greatly appreciate all  the trouble you have gone to ,  its very kind and sweet of  you.  Its  late  now so I shall  say goodnight and answer it tomorrow. .  I have to absorb it all  too   :Smilie:    thank  you again.

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## GraemeCook

> I am leaning towards the heat panels as *I know they cost 12 cents  an hour to run* ..  so heat and economy . .

  Hi Mia 
You have made the above statement a couple of times, but it is simply not true. 
A 2,000 watt heater uses 2,000 watts or 2 kilowatts per when that it is running.   Electricity is sold by the kilowatt/hour, often called a unit, and at a likely charge rate of 15 cents per unit your 2,000 watt panel heater will actually cost around 30 cents an hour to run.  (You can get your actual charge rate from your last electricity bill.) 
Manufacturers "create" low costs by assuming that the heater only cycles on for one hour in two or one hour in three.   Legal, but dishonest unless they clearly state the measurement conditions. 
As regards the 2,800 watt unit, you are not allowed to plug in any electrical appliance greater than 2,400 watts.  If you chose this, or a larger model, then you will have to employ an electrician to hard-wire the heater; another $200 or so. 
The table at the bottom of Smurfs posting is very informative and correct.   It is based on Hobart prices but it will not be grossly inaccurate in other areas.   (Firewood is about $100 per ton, peak time heating electricity is 11.05 cents per unit, gas is dearer than the mainland and LPG is exorbitant.) 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## Smurf

> *and does anyone know how much bottled gas would be used if they were both going from morning to 9-10 ish ? pm? one gas bottle has 45kg. . I dont know what that means. . LP gas.. going on useage for 10 hours daily. . .*

  The 8MJ LPG heater will run for about 281 hours on one 45kg cylinder. So that's 4 weeks if you're running it for 10 hours each day. 
The 11MJ heater will run for 204 hours on the 45kg cylinder. That's just under 3 weeks if it's on for 10 hours each day. 
If you're running both of them for 10 hours each day then you'll use a cylinder every 12 days. 
LPG at $88 per cylinder works out at 14 cents per kWh. With no flue, the heater is essentially 100% efficient but with these heaters you generally do need some extra ventilation. See my previous post to compare with flued heaters, electric, wood etc.

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## mia

Thanks Eastie (and everyone ) I have decided to buy the  new Nobo, E series,  its  warm and  economical and from all reports,  its a lot cheaper to run  than  an oil filled column.  I am also  buying a small  Paloma portable gas  heater,   I have one in  the kitchen, a 451 and  highly recommend  this  brand.  .  the heater uses  minimal gas and is  cosy and  warms the kitchen in the dead of winter and is the smallest model they make I think.. Thank  you all for your advice and help, the Nobo is an excellent unit,  Im not buying it for  the aesthetics,  but the perfomance and  also the  power  useage.  Thank  you again and for an informative site.

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## mia

Wow  thank  you Smurf  for that  reply. . I missed it just then.Thats  excellent, I had no idea  how long an  LPG gas  bottl  would last  with a Paloma  heater  and now I know.  I will be using it for   the  8MJ  or  11MJ    thats really good to know  ,  and  is really appreciated. The  Nobo is my choice and also   another Paloma  heater. . I will arm myself with   your info when I go to Albury to choose  the one I want.  Cheers & thank  you very much :Smilie:

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## Bloss

> Thanks Eastie (and everyone ) I have decided to buy the  new Nobo, E series,  its  warm and  economical and from all reports,  its a lot cheaper to run  than  an oil filled column. Maybe, maybe not,  as has been pointed out in other posts - no difference IMO and experience . . . Thank  you all for your advice and help, the Nobo is an excellent unit,  Im not buying it for  the aesthetics,  but the perfomance and  also the  power  useage. That might well be why you think you are buying it, but again as the other posts pointed out there is no special attribute that it has to make it better on either of those factors (which for whatever heater you use are governed by power output and _your use_ of timer and/or thermostat - and the thermal conditions of the room(s) being heated).  Thank  you again and for an informative site.

  You can't change physics and the laws of thermodynamics however good is the sales pitch.  :Frown:  But your choice of course and I hope you are happy with it!   :2thumbsup:  Glad the forum's been useful - most of us find that!  :2thumbsup:

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## Master Splinter

If you've already had an unsatisfactory experience with a 2,000 watt panel heater, you won't get anything different from a Nobo E series, as their maximum is...2,000 watts.   
2,000 watts of heat is 2,000 watts of heat, no matter what brand you create it with.   
After that, it really does boil down to just aesthetics. 
If you measure the running costs of other electric heaters in the same way as Nobo (only on half the time), they too will show exactly the same running costs; there is no magic difference in the way they create heat. 
Mind you, you may mask the (lack of) effect with the addition of that gas heater as a source of radiant heat.

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## dazzler

Hi 
We have recently fitted the 1500w nobo panel heater in our hallway which feeds three bedrooms.  We set it at 16deg overnight and it works very well.  Takes the chill off the bedrooms and isnt using heaps of power as we use the pay as you go system. 
Would recommend them.

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## Smurf

> Hi 
> We have recently fitted the 1500w nobo panel heater in our hallway which feeds three bedrooms. We set it at 16deg overnight and it works very well. Takes the chill off the bedrooms and isnt using heaps of power as we use the pay as you go system.

  One thing that's helping here with the PAYG system is that power is a lot cheaper at night. So you're using it when it's cheapest with the heater going overnight.

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## pawnhead

Some good posts from Bloss and Master Splinter, and some great technical information, and cost comparisons from Smurf there.  I never realised that RC air con was so cheap at heating. I might can the idea of putting mains gas on here and get an air con instead. It would be nice to cool the place as well on some hot summer days.
Do you know how the price of mains gas in Sydney compares with air con? 
Apart from aesthetics, I don't know why you'd pay extra for a panel heater over an oil filled heater. As well as a 2400 watt oil heater for the loungeroom, I've just bought a little 700 watt oil heater from Woolies (for only $30), and it's great in my bedroom. I put it under my legs when I'm sitting at my PC. If I throw a blanket over myself, the chair, and the heater under my legs it's like I'm sitting in a sauna. I can turn the thermostat down and use very little power whilst staying as cosy as I like.

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