# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  No way to upgrade lighting?

## SteveB00

I'm renovating a unit and want to replace old, cheap oyster ceiling lights with new, stylish ones. The building is from the 1940s and there is no earth on the light circuit. My understanding is that an electrician can't upgrade the light fixtures unless they're non-conducting. Yet he can remove and replace an existing fitting. I'm having a new ceiling in the bathroom and the electrician can removed the daggy, metal ceiling light and refit it under the new ceiling, but he can't fit a new one of the same construction. I've solved that problem with have 12v down lights. 
However, for the rest of the unit, there's no way to upgrade the fittings short of, first, run an earthed feed through a conduit to the unit, and then gouge a channel in the plaster up to the ceiling, and then removing and replacing the ceiling to get a cable to a light fitting at the far end of the room. Yet the light fittings are all metal and were probably fitted long enough ago that it was legal, and they so remain legal. 
Ss this correct. Is there no hope of having good-looking lighting in my unit? Are there such things as non-conducting light fittings? The two shops I visited didn't have any. 
Thanks in advance,
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Kingers

Ok sorry to give you the bad news but of you want it done properly any lighting point an electrician touches must have an earth supplied to it. It doesn't matter if he's replacing like for like or just moving it. IT MUST be supplied with a earth. Section 5.4.3 of as/nzs 3000 goes through this. I noticed you said you solved the problem by using 12v downlights. Yes the light doesn't need an earth BUT the transformer must have an earth run to it. Says it in under section 5.4.3. It states an protective earthing conductor must be supplied at every lighting point including transformers supplying ELV systems (12v)  
is there any way an electrician can gain access to inside the roof? If not through a man hole by lifting parts of the roof?  
There must be a way to run an earth wire around through the roof space. I'm not sure how this unit is powered but I'm guessing its from a house? Is there a switchboard in the unit?

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## SteveB00

> Is there any way an electrician can gain access to inside the roof? If not through a man hole by lifting parts of the roof? 
> There must be a way to run an earth wire around through the roof space. I'm not sure how this unit is powered but I'm guessing its from a house? Is there a switchboard in the unit?

  It's a ground floor unit. There is no roof. The ceiling is the floor of the unit above. The fuse box (circuit breakers actually) is in a cupboard in the foyer one level above the unit. Power to the unit - there are only two circuits - runs through conduits that must have been installed when the building was made. Replacing this wiring - or adding another earthed circuit - would be a big job but would get power to the unit. However, I can't see how to get it to the ceiling lights short of remove the ceiling. 
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Kingers

Ahh ok then. Well there are ways, if your installing downlights you could possibly be able to use a yellow tongue and go from one to another but for your other lights you might be able to cut small holes every so often and get the yellow tongue around. But that still leaves a problem of getting to the switchboard. It seems strange that its not inside the unit itself.  
But yeah to do the job will require plaster coming off in spots. How much plaster or how many holes need to be cut will depend how in between floors was built. 
I know there are sparkys that would do the job without running earths and issuing compliance certificates, but I personally would not do it this way nor do I recommend it as it is illegal.

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## Bros

If the unit was built in the 1940's I don't think PVC insulation was in existence then so it must have been upgraded sometime during the 60's or 70's as lighting earths were not required then. The old method of weather an earth was required was if you could stand on an earthed situation and touch the light an earth was required e.g if you could stand on the basin or tub and touch the light an earth was required. The conduit is it split conduit as I think that is what was used in the 40's? Now enough of the history lesson.
Gee if you start doing any work on the installation you will fall into the trap of having to meet current standards and with your information it could mean a complete rewire of the unit.
I know its not what you want to hear but I think you may have to face reality.

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## SteveB00

I understand all that has been said, and don't need any more information about legality, danger etc. 
However, my unit already has unearthed metal light fixtures (that were probably fitted legally before it became mandatory to have an earth). There is no way to earth them without spending A LOT of money. It is completely legal to leave these light fixtures in place. New metal light fixtures will be no more (nor less) dangerous than the current ones. 
Does anybody know an electrician who will fit them (and not issue a compliance certificate, whatever)?  
Thanks,
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Bros

> I understand all that has been said, and don't need any more information about legality, danger etc. 
> However, my unit already has unearthed metal light fixtures (that were probably fitted legally before it became mandatory to have an earth). There is no way to earth them without spending A LOT of money. It is completely legal to leave these light fixtures in place. New metal light fixtures will be no more (nor less) dangerous than the current ones. 
> Does anybody know an electrician who will fit them (and not issue a compliance certificate, whatever)?

  Obviously I can't help you but please do yourself a favour and have RCD'd fitted to the Switchboard if you intend persisting with metal light fixtures I'm sure you will find an electrician who will do that for you.

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## SteveB00

> Obviously I can't help you but please do yourself a favour and have RCD'd fitted to the Switchboard if you intend persisting with metal light fixtures I'm sure you will find an electrician who will do that for you.

  Thanks. Can you point me to an alternative to metal light fixtures? 
Steve  = : ^ )

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## oldtrack123

> I understand all that has been said, and don't need any more information about legality, danger etc. 
> However, my unit already has unearthed metal light fixtures (that were probably fitted legally before it became mandatory to have an earth). There is no way to earth them without spending A LOT of money. It is completely legal to leave these light fixtures in place. New metal light fixtures will be no more (nor less) dangerous than the current ones. 
> Does anybody know an electrician who will fit them (and not issue a compliance certificate, whatever)?  
> Thanks,
> Steve = : ^ )

   HI 
Mr Dodgy of Dodgy Electricals might do the job!
Mr common Sense of Ethical Electrics will not! 
PeterQ

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## chalkyt

You might seek some other opinions but I imagine that replacing the present fittings with batten holders, then getting some light fittings that go over the batten holders might be o.k. For example, the Big Green Shed and others sell round glass balls with metal bases that fit over a batten holder and are held in place by the skirt. Not the newest and flashest, but not too horrible, either (IMO). These fittings have no provision for earthing. I guess the reason is that they are electrically isolated from the batten holder live bits. The possible "escape clause" is 5.4.3 Exception 2(a) I am wondering if 'festoon-type lampholders of the all insulated type' covered by this exemption is another name for 'batten holder' since batten holder isn't a term used in AS3000. It is worth a call to your supply authority inspectors to see what they think. 
Given the age of the building it is also likely that the conduit in the slab finishes with a junction box at each lighting point. It was fairly common practice to terminate the wiring at a batten holder mounted on the J-Box then subsequently replace this with the light fitting of choice. It is also possible that the conduit in the slab is metal screwed rather than split as split was a bit prone to filling with concrete when the slab was poured. If this is the case, you might find that "escape clause 2" (5.4.3 Exemption 2b) applies if the screwed conduit is properly earthed. 
Get an electrician to do an earth continuity and/or insulation test on the conduit and go from there. Good luck!  :Biggrin:

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## Bros

Take notice of what Chalkyt said and get the electrician and while he is at it install RCD's what you do with the fittings is up to you. RCD's are the last line of defence and all work should be done with the reasoning that RCD's don't exist as you shouldn't be relying on RCD's as the first and only protection from electric shock that's the reasoning behind having an earth at all light fittings. 
I can't help with the light fittings as I would be just the same as you and go shopping. Most if not all contractors ask the customer to get the fittings as it saves them the hastle of selecting fittings.

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## chalkyt

It occurred to me after I sent the above, that you might not have access to AS3000 although your electrician will. The "escape clauses" that I mentioned are exceptions to to 5.4.3 which is the rule requiring an earthing conductor at every lighting point. 
2a is festoon-type lampholders of the all insulated type. As I said, that sounds like batten holders to me.
2b is where the luninaire is earthed by attachment to screwed conductive conduit or pipe. You might find that the existing fittings are actually screwed to the J-Box (if it exists, of course) and so fall under this exception. 
And I agree with Bross, an RCD is essential for any upgrade.

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## SteveB00

> You might seek some other opinions but I imagine that replacing the present fittings with batten holders, then getting some light fittings that go over the batten holders might be o.k. For example, the Big Green Shed and others sell round glass balls with metal bases that fit over a batten holder and are held in place by the skirt. Not the newest and flashest, but not too horrible, either (IMO). These fittings have no provision for earthing. I guess the reason is that they are electrically isolated from the batten holder live bits. The possible "escape clause" is 5.4.3 Exception 2(a) I am wondering if 'festoon-type lampholders of the all insulated type' covered by this exemption is another name for 'batten holder' since batten holder isn't a term used in AS3000. It is worth a call to your supply authority inspectors to see what they think.

  Thanks. I hadn't considered batten holders, didn't know what they are, in fact, but they're the self-contained, *plastic*, fittings that hold a light bulb, right? Bunnings, for example, has a range of 'batten fix' lighting. I assume I can legally fit any of these, as the shade is electrically isolated from the circuit. They're not exactly what I was looking for, but it's a start. 
Thanks,
Steve  = : ^ )

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## chalkyt

Yep, your description of a batten holder is spot on. You might look at Beacon Lighting. They have quite a range of batten-fix lights... a bit flasher than Bunnings.

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## Kingers

A batten holder is not festoon lighting, festoon lights is what the old milk bars had, the string of lights out the front. Christmas and party lights are also festoon lights, doesnt have to be 240v    
If there is no way to earth any fittings then definatly dont get any metal fittings installed. It only takes a cable to brake from the terminal and liven up the fitting and when you try to change the globe cause its not working, well thats it life is no more. It might not be you that changes the globe either...
My reccomendation is to install downlights or use only plastic fittings, such as batten holders with the covers that will cover the batten holder which was suggested before. You will be able to find a sparky that will install them with no earths and no certificate.

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## Moondog55

Would you consider running flat conduit along the ceiling?
When painted to match the existing ceiling it isn't too conspicuous  and I think any competent sparky could run new earthed cable that way.
I remember my grandmothers house was wired that way, except her wiring was done as a retrofit in the 50s and all the wires ran in round steel conduit

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## Bros

Have a look here it will show you a couple of fittings you can use with a batten holders. Personally I hate batten holders as the lamps for them are pretty ordinary as far as light output goes.   Electrical Supplies, Online Electrical Wholesaler, Electrical Accessories, Electrical Wholesaler Brisbane, Electrical Wholesaler Sydney, Electrical Wholesaler Melbourne,

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## SteveB00

Yes, I see there are some okay batten fix fixtures, and may go that way. 
As far as a conduit across the ceiling, as far as I can see it would also have to run down the wall to a power point. I'd go batten fix before I'd do that. 
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Ozcar

> . . .
> 2b is where the luninaire is earthed by attachment to screwed conductive conduit or pipe. You might find that the existing fittings are actually screwed to the J-Box (if it exists, of course) and so fall under this exception.
>  . . .

  Does "screwed conductive conduit" mean metal conduit with screwed joints? If so, how would you know with the conduit set in concrete? I can see you could check for continuity, but that would not prove what sort of joins there were all along the way, would it? 
Just curious. I had a sparky replace a light fitting for me once and he initially said there was going to be a problem due to lack of earth, but then he decided that it was OK to provide the earth via the conduit, which like the one talked about here was embedded in a concrete ceiling.

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## SteveB00

I had a good look at one of my current light fixture today, and the lamp holder is a sealed plastic unit and no wiring is visible from below. It may well be that the metal part of the fixture that attaches to the ceiling is electrically insulated from the circuit (as it is with a batten mount fixture). The only difference is that the lamp folder is purpose-built to hold the fixture and the globe mounts horizontally, rather than vertically as with a batten holder. 
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Bros

I think I know the ones you mean they have a knurled nut in the middle to hold the class in and a stud that curls around the bulb. These are the cheapies that are installed in houses that are one step above a batten holder. They are not earthed but the batten holder has a place for the earth which is just a termination point and has no contact with the metal base.

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## chalkyt

Hi Ozcar
The short answer is "you can tell", particularly if there is earth continuity. If the building is 1940s then as Bros says, it will be metal conduit (from memory, PVC conduit appeared around 1960 or so). Physically, the J-Box will usually be a cast metal unit set in the slab and it will be possible to see the thread by looking at where the conduit comes in. If it is a sheet metal J-Box then the locknut on the conduit will be visible. If it is screwed at one end it will be screwed all the way. No one wants to find that the conduit is full of concrete because the connections weren't "concrete proof". 
My first job as an apprentice was to fill the J-Boxes with mushy newspaper so that the concrete didn't fill them and the conduit when it was poured (concrete vibrators help it to get in EVERYWHERE). The second job was to pull the paper out again, then get a cold chisel and hammer if you forgot to fill one! I have seen PLENTY, and you only forget to fill them once. Poured and vibrated concrete gets through every gap! 
Hi Steve800
The metal part of the light fitting may be screwed to an in-slab J-Box or alternatively fixed independently to the slab. Often with this type of fitting the lampholder goes through a cutout in the metal base with the wires terminated in this. Alternatively wires from the lampholder are simply terminated in connectors behind the base (inside the J-Box??). In any case you need to get an electrician to remove the fitting to see what is behind it... then all will be revealed. He will know what is going on and advise you accordingly. I would expect to see the wiring coming out of a J-box in the ceiling once you remove the light fitting. If all is as I suspect, then it isn't going to be a big job. 
The reason I suggested that Exception 2a might apply is that if you look at Kingers picture, you will see batten holder type fittings (some types even had bases that could screw to a timber batten). These festoon lights made the electrical connection by pins that pushed through the sheath of the two conductor cable (no earth) into the conductors. It was quick and easy to place the fittings wherever you wanted them. Generally when the wiring rules are amended, they don't exclude past practices, so I wonder if "festoon-type lampholders" is an example of this. As I said, a chat with your supply authority's inspectors might help.    
BTW an alternative to batten holders might be to fit a ceiling rose and pendant type light fitting.

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## SteveB00

I'm not sure there's a concrete slab above my unit. I think the whole building has wooden floors. I could be wrong, but mine is the ground floor unit and there's no slab under it. You can get, and tradesmen have got, under the floor. 
My celling light fixtures appear to have an earth contact, i.e. a self-tapper with a serrated washer (that I assume is designed to scratch through paint and make an electrical contact). So, it appears that they _can_ be earthed but, as the globe holder is sealed and (I'm assuming) the rest of the fixture is isolated from the power circuit, it isn't mandatory. If there's an earth on the lighting circuit, wouldn't it be attached to this screw and therefore, visible from below? 
Is it possible to tell at the switchboard if the circuit is earthed? 
To complicate things a little, I've discovered that the two ceiling lights in the living room are on the 'power', and not 'lights' circuit. Might _these_ be earthed? 
Thanks again,
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Uncle Bob

Question for the sparkies. 
What's the legalities of isolating the lighting circuit via the use of an isolating transformer at the switchboard?

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## oldtrack123

> I'm not sure there's a concrete slab above my unit. I think the whole building has wooden floors. I could be wrong, but mine is the ground floor unit and there's no slab under it. You can get, and tradesmen have got, under the floor. 
> [1]My celling light fixtures appear to have an earth contact, i.e. a self-tapper with a serrated washer (that I assume is designed to scratch through paint and make an electrical contact). So, it appears that they _can_ be earthed but, as the globe holder is sealed and (I'm assuming) the rest of the fixture is isolated from the power circuit, it isn't mandatory. If there's an earth on the lighting circuit, wouldn't it be attached to this screw and therefore, visible from below? 
> [2]Is it possible to tell at the switchboard if the circuit is earthed? 
> [3]To complicate things a little, I've discovered that the two ceiling lights in the living room are on the 'power', and not 'lights' circuit. Might _these_ be earthed? 
> Thanks again,
> Steve = : ^ )

  
Hi 
It all depends on WHEN the house was wired & the Standards that applied AT THAT TIME 
[1]
That indicates the fittings are not considered, DOUBLE INSULATED,
They require an earth, for safety, by TODAY'S standards
[2] NO 
[3]
You may be surprised to find even the "power points" may not be EARTHED in that situation, again depends on WHEN the house was wired & the Standards applying AT THAT time  
PeterQ

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## oldtrack123

> Question for the sparkies. 
> What's the legalities of isolating the lighting circuit via the use of an isolating transformer at the switchboard?

  Hi 
If the wiring is single insulated cable in metal conduit  the use of an isolating transformer is  definately OUT
Too high a risk of the system becoming non isolated!!!
There are other limitations on isolation transformers as well 
So forget THAT idea 
PeterQ

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## manofaus

whaddif you changed every light to 24 or 12v, and have one transformer for the lot. earth out the one transformer at a panel. The rules are different for extra low voltage aren't they? problem would then be the current capacity of the wire I suppose..

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## BalliangBuilder

I'm not a sparky but what about PVC insulated copper earthing tape 25mm x 3mm, this will be fairly neat on the wall and ceiling, I'm just not sure if its a legal option? Maybe a sparky on here might be able to clarify? 
You can also get 1.5mm thick tape but its bare (no insulation) again I'm not sure if this is an option.

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## Bros

> My celling light fixtures appear to have an earth contact, i.e. a self-tapper with a serrated washer (that I assume is designed to scratch through paint and make an electrical contact). So, it appears that they _can_ be earthed but, as the globe holder is sealed and (I'm assuming) the rest of the fixture is isolated from the power circuit, it isn't mandatory. If there's an earth on the lighting circuit, wouldn't it be attached to this screw and therefore, visible from below?

  It is not he fittings I was thinking of. Yes it should be visible.   

> Is it possible to tell at the switchboard if the circuit is earthed?

  Yes it is but from what you have said I don't think it would be earthed.   

> To complicate things a little, I've discovered that the two ceiling lights in the living room are on the 'power', and not 'lights' circuit. Might _these_ be earthed?

  Maybe maybe not as in the past earthing was not required. You really need to get an electrician to look at it even a mate who is an electrician not necessarily a electrical contractor who can give you an idea of how the installation was fitted out and what you could need to be done in the future. It is hard for those who reply to visualise what you are looking at.

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## SteveB00

Okay, I've been looking at batten fix lights online and, as far as I can tell, "DIY" and "batten fix" seem to go together, as here. (I'd be happy with these lights, especially at the price.) 
However, I'm a little confused, as they make no mention of requiring and existing batten mount, and I assume it's included with the light or they're just double insulated. If that's the case, I don't understand why no electrician is required to fit them. If it's taken as read that they _do_ require an exisiting batten mount, why does this light, (for my kitchen) on the same website, say that it requires an electrician to fit a "batten fix" if there's not one in place already? My brain hurts.  :Confused:  
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Ozcar

They are only DIY if you already have a batten holder in place. 
I've never seen one that included the batten holder, but maybe I have lived a sheltered life.

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## SteveB00

> They are only DIY if you already have a batten holder in place. 
> I've never seen one that included the batten holder, but maybe I have lived a sheltered life.

  That's what I would have thought. Why does that one light among tens of others, say an electrician is needed? Weird.  :Confused:  
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Bros

> Okay, I've been looking at batten fix lights online and, as far as I can tell, "DIY" and "batten fix" seem to go together, as here. (I'd be happy with these lights, especially at the price.) 
> However, I'm a little confused, as they make no mention of requiring and existing batten mount,

  If you read it closely it does state needing a batten holder. The way they work is you remove the outside skirt of the batten holder out the fitting through the hole where the skirt came off then screw the skirt on. The one you mention is in two pieces one that is retained by the skirt the other has its own clips that are retained by the piece you fitted.  
An electrician is not needed as it is only slightly more difficult then changing a light bulb. One of the difficulties that can arise is if the lights have had to high a wattage lamp the skirt can get brittle and brake in your hands. You just have to be careful when you try and remove the skirt.

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## Bros

Now here you this tells you how to fit one. 
While I was at it I did a search on DIY fittings and there are some really good looking fittings available as batten fix type.  Batten Fix

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## SteveB00

> If you read it closely it does state needing a batten holder.

  All I sees it "batten fix". If that imples there's a batten holder already in place, why does the second light I linked to make a point of saying "An electrician will be required if an existing batten fix does not exist"? Maybe a more conscientious person wrote that ad. It's the only fluoro batten fix light I've seen if that makes any difference. 
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Bros

> All I sees it "batten fix". If that imples there's a batten holder already in place, why does the second light I linked to make a point of saying "An electrician will be required if an existing batten fix does not exist"? Maybe a more conscientious person wrote that ad. It's the only fluoro batten fix light I've seen if that makes any difference. 
> Steve  = : ^ )

    Just a different way of explaining it.

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## SteveB00

> Now here you this tells you how to fit one.

  Er, what tells me?   

> While I was at it I did a search on DIY fittings and there are some really good looking fittings available as batten fix type.  Batten Fix

  Yeah, I've seen those. And lots of other similar one, and in a different vein, I found this. There's quite a choice once you know what you're looking for.  
Thanks,
Steve  = : ^ )

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## Bros

This   

> A Batten fix is one of the most common light fittings. It is often supplied as standard in new homes. It is simply a BC Lampholder connected to the ceiling or wall. Many DIY (do it yourself) lighting fittings are made to cover Batten Fixes.By unscrewing the sleeve at the bottom of the Batten Fix you are able to side the DIY light into place then screw the sleeve back on This allows for the DIY light to be held in place.  The main benefit of DIY lighting of this nature is that they do not require the need for an electrician to install therefore, potentially saving you hundreds of dollars.

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## Bedford

Just to add insult to confusion, or hopefully help. :Smilie:        
This light fitting can be either hard wired, i.e. by an electrician, or fitted over a batten holder as Bros explains. 
There are some reasonable batten fix type fittings about that might save a lot of problems for you.

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## SteveB00

Unfortunately, I'm in other boat and currently have double-insulated light fixtures which are old and look awful, and have to pay an electrician to replace them with batten holders. :Grumble:  
Steve  = : ^ )

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## oldtrack123

> Just a different way of explaining it.

  Hi 
The simple answer is SOME states allow replacement of like for like by DIYers
Other States say if it is hard wired[meaning not plugged in,] requiring a tool to disconnect/ reconnect ANY wires, it SHALL be done by a licensed electrician.
So the first thing is to KNOW your STATE's regulations!!! 
PeterQ

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## Kingers

> Hi 
> The simple answer is SOME states allow replacement of like for like by DIYers
> Other States say if it is hard wired[meaning not plugged in,] requiring a tool to disconnect/ reconnect ANY wires, it SHALL be done by a licensed electrician.
> So the first thing is to KNOW your STATE's regulations!!! 
> PeterQ

  What state is that? Any work that requires you to touch the fixed wiring will require an electrician. You can change the light bulb and that's about it. If your not licensed your not supposed to take the light down to reveal the conductors...

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## chalkyt

Hmm! Given the age of the building and the wooden floors the chances are that the wiring is in split metal conduit. This isn't screwed as would be the case with a poured slab and so doesn't meet the earthed conduit requirement. Also, unless things have been rewired, the chances are that the cable is old VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber) insulated that by now will be very old and brittle (it breaks off as soon as you touch it). I once owned a place that was built in the 1950s which had insulated and sheathed VIR cable (a bit like the current PVC insulated and sheathed cables) but I don't know when this came into common use. In any case this stuff also goes very brittle over time, and if disturbed does pose a real fire hazard. 
If you do have VIR sheathed which hasn't gone too stiff with age, it can be used as a draw wire to pull in new PVC sheathed cable as it may have been run through holes in the ceiling/floor timbers. If it is single insulated VIR in split conduit then don't even try, just run new cables. 
Your best hope is to get an electrician to have a look. If the Gods are smiling you might find that someone has already replaced the old wiring (but given the old light fittings that is an outside chance). Otherwise you are looking at a rewire although with the timber floors this won't be such a big issue for an electrician who knows his stuff. You just might end up with a few ceiling repairs. 
I am afraid that this problem has reached the "call the electrician" stage so that you know just what you are dealing with.

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## Bros



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## oldtrack123

> What state is that? Any work that requires you to touch the fixed wiring will require an electrician. You can change the light bulb and that's about it. If your not licensed your not supposed to take the light down to reveal the conductors...

  HI 
QLd only allows plug ins by DIYers
Anything that requires a tool to connect disconnect is licensed work,that even includes changing plugs/ making up extension leads
Apparently SA allows like for like & anyone can make an extension lead
Vic is a strange situation, it seems they are quite happy for anyone to do the fixed wiring in vans  as long as the FINISHED JOB IS TESTED
One needs to fully read each STATE's Electrical  REgs /Acts to know the situation in THAT state !!!
That may all change with the coming standardisation of all the Electrical ACTS Aus wide 
PeterQ :Smilie:

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## oldtrack123

> Hmm! Given the age of the building and the wooden floors the chances are that the wiring is in split metal conduit. This isn't screwed as would be the case with a poured slab and so doesn't meet the earthed conduit requirement. Also, unless things have been rewired, the chances are that the cable is old VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber) insulated that by now will be very old and brittle (it breaks off as soon as you touch it). I once owned a place that was built in the 1950s which had insulated and sheathed VIR cable (a bit like the current PVC insulated and sheathed cables) but I don't know when this came into common use. In any case this stuff also goes very brittle over time, and if disturbed does pose a real fire hazard. 
> If you do have VIR sheathed which hasn't gone too stiff with age, it can be used as a draw wire to pull in new PVC sheathed cable as it may have been run through holes in the ceiling/floor timbers. If it is single insulated VIR in split conduit then don't even try, just run new cables. 
> Your best hope is to get an electrician to have a look. If the Gods are smiling you might find that someone has already replaced the old wiring (but given the old light fittings that is an outside chance). Otherwise you are looking at a rewire although with the timber floors this won't be such a big issue for an electrician who knows his stuff. You just might end up with a few ceiling repairs. 
> I am afraid that this problem has reached the "call the electrician" stage so that you know just what you are dealing with.

  HI 
Yes, ALL the potential problems summed up nicely 
Far beyond the DIYer, if it is to be safe, legal!!1
PeterQ

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## mattski2008

> Hi 
> The simple answer is SOME states allow replacement of like for like by DIYers
> Other States say if it is hard wired[meaning not plugged in,] requiring a tool to disconnect/ reconnect ANY wires, it SHALL be done by a licensed electrician.
> So the first thing is to KNOW your STATE's regulations!!! 
> PeterQ

  Qld does not allow you to replace like for like unless you are unplugging something and plugging a new one in  (eg pull down and replace plug in rangehood). Please see below for a definition of Electrical work. 
Electrical work (see section 18 of the Act) is the manufacturing, constructing,
installing, testing, maintaining, repairing, altering, removing, or replacing of
electrical equipment.
Examples of electrical work:
 installing low voltage electrical wiring in a building;
 installing electrical equipment into an installation coupler or interconnecter;
 replacing a low voltage electrical component of a washing machine; and
 maintaining an electricity entitys overhead distribution system.
However, the following are not electrical work:
(a) Installing or removing electrical equipment by connecting it to electricity, or
disconnecting it from electricity, by a plug and socket outlet.
(b) Repairing or replacing non-electrical components of electrical equipment.   
and   
A licensed electrical worker who performs electrical work on
an electrical installation must ensure that the electrical
installation, to the extent it is affected by the electrical work,
is in accordance with the wiring rules. 
So yes it is important to know your States LAWS

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## nev25

> Qld does not allow you to replace like for like unless you are unplugging something and plugging a new one in  (eg pull down and replace plug in rangehood). Please see below for a definition of Electrical work. 
> Electrical work (see section 18 of the Act) is the manufacturing, constructing,
> installing, testing, maintaining, repairing, altering, removing, or replacing of
> electrical equipment.
> Examples of electrical work:
>  installing low voltage electrical wiring in a building;
>  installing electrical equipment into an installation coupler or interconnecter;
>  replacing a low voltage electrical component of a washing machine; and
>  maintaining an electricity entitys overhead distribution system.
> ...

  This was Discussed/ Argued here

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