# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  BP connectors - sparky says one thing, does another

## dutchroll

We're (licenced sparky and I) finishing off the final circuits in a large shed, which will be the last power circuit, and the last lighting circuit. I've been assisting with the manual labour and having a good look at how he does stuff, making sure all the aesthetics are right, switches and light fittings are all exactly where I want them etc, and asking lots of questions (no....he doesn't mind this as we've known each other for many years). 
Doing the light switches I asked if the BP connectors tying all the neutrals and the earths together needed to be taped over the "open" ends, knowing that the rules generally sway towards ensuring nothing can get into where live conductors are terminated especially when you have a steel frame structure. He said yeah they do. I checked a couple of light switches which he had already wired on a previous occasion which sit on plywood panels forming a cavity wall against the steel shed framing and they (the BP connectors) weren't taped at all. 
To tape or not to tape up the BP connectors? He said one thing and appears to have done another. Is his lack of taping them an omission I need to point out to him or is it not actually required?

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## Bros

The old rule of thumb was the finger test. If you can touch any conductors with you finger it needs insulating. Now saying that it doesn't take much to wrap some tape around the BP connector covering the screed and the conductors. Most BP connectors have blank ends except the double screw ones which are usually used for earths.

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## NRB

Maybe a silly question but what is a BP connector?
Thanks

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## phild01

> Maybe a silly question but what is a BP connector?
> Thanks

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## r3nov8or

Yep, they are something Google know heaps about...

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## NRB

You guys are quicker

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## phild01

> Yep, they are something Google know heaps about...

   had to get the image somewhere :Wink:

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## dutchroll

Yeah think I might tape them up for him then while the power is off just to be certain. It's a 5 minute job to run around and do them all. He can check it when he comes out for the final connections but he seems to be indicating that's now what he wants (strange he didn't do the earlier ones and now he wants them taped - maybe he's just thought about it & changed his mind).

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## r3nov8or

Very neat holes in your wall!  :Smilie:

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## dutchroll

That's because after seeing my sparky cut the first one, I told him I'd do the rest! Lol! He laughed and was perfectly fine with that. It's like trenching - he actually likes it a lot when I do all the trenching/glueing/pulling through myself. He hates getting down in trenches or doing any of the dusty/dirty work. As long as I present him with the correct cable poking out at each end and some iPhone photos showing that it's laid properly at the right depth, he's happy because he doesn't get dirty, and I'm happy because I've saved $hundreds in labour costs. Win-win.

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## r3nov8or

I had a feeling those weren't a tradie's holes  :Smilie:

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## Bros

> Yeah think I might tape them up for him then while the power is off just to be certain. It's a 5 minute job to run around and do them all. He can check it when he comes out for the final connections but he seems to be indicating that's now what he wants (strange he didn't do the earlier ones and now he wants them taped - maybe he's just thought about it & changed his mind).

   I wouldn't be to concerned about those connectors as they have been terminated correctly and would OK a bit of tape will be a belt and braces job but won't hurt. They are not like the old BP connectors as they have a shroud extending back over the conductors and the end would be closed.

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## Moondog55

If you are taping doesn't the tape need to be colour coded to match the wire? 
OR
Is it only the Earth wire that has to be colour code taped?
If so do you have the rolls of tape in the appropriate colours?
Just asking.

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## dutchroll

Chatted to sparky about it today & he said tape does not need to be colour coded for those but I went around and neatly did a few windings of tape across the open entries in the correct colour anyway. I know a number of times he's talked about how finicky inspectors are getting nowadays so we agreed it would be for the better. 
They're all just hanging out now (as per the photo but with the tape on) for him to do the switchboard connection and his circuit & integrity testing - white man's magic to me - all I know is that he sticks multimeter probes in everywhere. 
He did have one other BP connector un-taped but after talking to him I realised that switch has another connection yet to be made, so he has to pull that one out to attach the new wiring anyway.

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## Bros

I have used any colour for active and neutral except green/yellow which is used for earth. I think the colours used for earth are pretty specific the other conductors can be any colour but green/yellow and green and yellow

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## Smurf

I've always used tape in a colour that corresponds to the cable since there's no real reason not to. It's not as though you can't easily buy black, red, blue, white etc tape and the price is the same regardless of colour. 
PS - for those wondering BP is for "Blue Point", a reference to what used to be the dominant manufacturer of these connectors although there are many brands around these days. It's the same as using "Biro" to mean any ball point pen or referring to any vacuum cleaner as a Hoover regardless of the actual brand.

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## FrodoOne

> I asked if the BP connectors tying all the neutrals and the earths together needed to be taped over the "open" ends

  The only "open ends" should be on the (double screw) connectors for the Earth connections.  Neither the (single screw) connectors for Neutral, Active or switched Active (if any) should have open ends.

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## mattski2008

You don't need tape on any of them. I see you are worried about the connectors but what about the live screws on the switch mechs? If anything you would be worried about them. 
It is only accessible with the use of a screwdriver and shouldnt move in normal use.

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## dutchroll

> The only "open ends" should be on the (double screw) connectors for the Earth connections.  Neither the (single screw) connectors for Neutral, Active or switched Active (if any) should have open ends.

   This may be a terminology thing causing confusion here......by "open" I meant the "cable entry" end which on a BP connector has an extra wide mouth as opposed to what you get with a standard barrel terminal. 
It would naturally be silly to expect the screw terminals on the BP connectors to be taped up - the entire switch plate has uncovered live screw terminals all over it. It's not like you can get a finger into the screw terminals of a BP connector even if you tried. It would be far easier to touch the active screw terminal where the wire goes into the barrel.

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## METRIX

Does your mate you have known for years know your posting pics on a forum asking complete strangers to comment on his workmanship? (Which 99% of whom are replying are not sparkies) 
I imagine the answer to that question is No. 
 I'm sure your mate does not mind you asking him question's, as I don't mind my clients asking me questions, but I think it might be a different story if he knew you were doubting his abilities to perform the job he's qualified to do in such a public way ?. 
I know I would not like such trivial information being posted of a forum and being made out that what I was doing was of such a major safety risk, I would rather you sit down and ask me if you had a concern about something, and we can discuss it like adults, instead of running to a forum to ask everyone else's opinion about something they probably don't know the answer to. 
If he is licensed and this install requires certification, I'm sure your mate will ensure everything is up to code before the install is finished and the certifier shows up, after all that's what he's qualified to do. 
It really makes no difference if he said yes we need to tape them, and did not, as I believe the job is not finished, and he probably had 100 other things on his mind to do with the install when you asked him and may have said something off the top of his head not giving the answer much thought, give the guy a break and let him do his job. 
I wonder how you would feel if your boss was taking secret pictures of what you do at work, posting these and asking complete strangers if what your doing is correct or not.

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## plum

I'd be pretty peeved if I found someone going to a forum doubting my work, especially to people that are not qualified.

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## Bros

> L (Which 99% of whom are replying are not sparkies) 
> .

  I'll pass on that as I don't believe I'm in the 99% but you never know.

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## dutchroll

Jesus H Christ, Metrix. 
I am NOT doubting his work. I am trying to clarify something he told me which I was endeavouring to understand, while he was away and not at all easily contactable. 
And that light switch is NOT his work. That is a photograph of MY work, done under his explicit verbal instruction on an inactive circuit, to be left open and inspected by him when he gets a chance to drop by next. Others stuff is more complicated, and is entirely HIS work. 
I am not a moron, Metrix, as much as you and other tradies may wish to believe that is the case. Most people give away whether they're licensed or not with a quick browse through their posting history. He knows I won't do anything that he's not happy with or fiddle behind the switchboard or with live circuits and, because as I mentioned I am not a moron (should I repeat that again?), he trusts me with that understanding and has never been anything but impressed with what I've done, nor unimpressed with me doing something silly. 
I was just pondering an apparent conflict (and concede the subject title was too harshly worded - my fault entirely). 
I know you have a licence mate. I'm a licensed professional too (and I get checked a minimum of 4 times per year and any breach/failure to meet the published standards is an instant suspension - right there on the spot - of my licence). But I don't shove it up people's noses even when I hear them espousing their opinions on how my profession does things. In fact if they are full of nonsense, I will politely correct them. I would rather they didn't have a false impression and do something dumb than wake up in the night thinking "you know, I had the chance to tell him that's wrong and I didn't, but it's too late now". 
You know, if you're really not happy with people seeking other opinions on tradie techniques or requirements, why on earth do you post here at all? And don't get me started on licensed tradie screw ups I've had to deal with on this DA. Tilers forgetting to grout vertical joins. Plumbers not knowing how to install a back-to-wall dunny. Builders erecting a 12m x 5m x 4m high garaport on sloping ground back to bloody front so the water poured out of the gutter at the opposite end of the downpipe!! Concreters forgetting to tie slab re-bar to piers (gee that was fun to have re-engineered). All of them local. All of them 30+ and "experienced". None of them cheap! Would've been better if I'd quit my job and done the whole bloody lot myself! 
here endeth the rant.....

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## Bros

I don't believe dutchroll question was nothing more than clarification. It is similar to when I go to medical specialists even though two of us go we end up with more questions after we leave so it is dr Google to the rescue as special forums on medical issues do exist but I don't use them. So gents cool down as I believe dutchroll.

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## Smurf

For the record, I'm an electrician (though my job is industrial not domestic work). 
A decent tradesman performing high quality work has nothing to fear from the customer knowing how it ought to be done, indeed it's to their long term advantage since it helps weed out those who take shortcuts and are able to do jobs at artificially cheap prices as a result, undercutting those who do it properly. 
I've had two occasions to call a tradesman over the past 7 years living at this address.  
First was a gas fitter and he did a top notch job, no doubt about that. I don't think they're still in business, but I'd have no hesitation in recommending them if they are. Gasmania for the record (Hobart).  
Second was a plumber and suffice to say I had to pull him up on the shortcut being taken and insist that it be done properly. Sure, the job would have worked the way he was doing it, but would have been less efficient in the long term (basic physics there) and it's not unreasonable to want it done as per manufacturer specifications and Australian Standards. I'm paying for it after all. It's also not a good idea to literally throw the customer's property around - whether or not any damage may be caused is not the point, it's not a good look and is unprofessional at best.

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## METRIX

> Jesus H Christ, Metrix.

  That's a harsh set of word used there in your opening line and I think its uncalled for.    

> I am NOT doubting his work. I am trying to clarify something he told me which I was endeavouring to understand, while he was away and not at all easily contactable.

  I would probably interpret the following statement as being somewhat doubtful.   

> I checked a couple of light switches which he had already wired on a previous occasion which sit on plywood panels forming a cavity wall against the steel shed framing and they (the BP connectors) weren't taped at all.  *He said one thing and appears to have done another*.

  Also the following set of words could be considered as doubtful    

> BP connectors - sparky says one thing, does another

   

> And that light switch is NOT his work. That is a photograph of MY work

  Im glad your so passionate its YOUR work, it's always good to have something your proud of, maybe you need to explain the picture below is MY work, but I am questioning someone elses work   

> I am not a moron, Metrix, as much as you and other tradies may wish to believe that is the case.

  I never said you were, and I dont believe anyone else has said you were   

> because as I mentioned I am not a moron (should I repeat that again?)

  Yep, I believe you did mention that   

> I know you have a licence mate. I'm a licensed professional too (and I get checked a minimum of 4 times per year and any breach/failure to meet the published standards is an instant suspension - right there on the spot - of my licence). But I don't shove it up people's noses even when I hear them espousing their opinions on how my profession does things.

  Your right I do have a License, and I dont shove any of that up anyones nose, as I am only one of the many hundreds of thousands of tradies that do, I think you need to sit down and take a deep breath   

> You know, if you're really not happy with people seeking other opinions on tradie techniques or requirements, why on earth do you post here at all?

  I post here out of the goodness of my own heart, as do the other tradesmen / tradeswomen that frequent here , because people come here asking for advice,  and I like to give them advice, which not only saves them money and time, but it potentially lifesaving when they are trying to build something that would be dangerous if they built it the way they intended to do so. 
 Actually I might ask the same of you, Why do you post here ranting and raving on like you do at the first sign of anyone questioning anything you say, looking at your minimal number of posts in 3 years with titles such as the following,   *Quote form a sparky... reasonable or rip-off?*  *BP connectors - sparky says one thing, does another* 
I dont think you hold your sparkie mate in high regard, and you possibly think he's out to get you, because you also think he thinks your a Moron. 
Also looking through your postings you have actually answered your own question 3 years ago, and you seem to be asking an awful lot of question in relation to wiring of this shed, which your sparkie mate wink wink will of course be checking, I'm not sure why you don't just save yourself the headache and get your sparkie mate, wink wink to just come in and do the entire job for you.      

> And don't get me started on licensed tradie screw ups I've had to deal with on this DA. Tilers forgetting to grout vertical joins. Plumbers not knowing how to install a back-to-wall dunny. Builders erecting a 12m x 5m x 4m high garaport on sloping ground back to bloody front so the water poured out of the gutter at the opposite end of the downpipe!! Concreters forgetting to tie slab re-bar to piers (gee that was fun to have re-engineered). All of them local. All of them 30+ and "experienced". None of them cheap! Would've been better if I'd quit my job and done the whole bloody lot myself!

  Perhaps the common factor here is not the tradie's but something else ?  :Rolleyes:

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## r3nov8or

> .... *Gasmania* for the record (Hobart)....

   How could they go out of business with a sharp name like that!?

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## METRIX

Nope, their still in business.  Gasmania Gas & Plumbing - Plumbers & Gas Fitters - Sandy Bay, TAS - Yellow PagesÂ®

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## r3nov8or

Good! I'd use 'em.

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## justonething

> A decent tradesman performing high quality work has nothing to fear from the customer knowing how it ought to be done, indeed it's to their long term advantage since it helps weed out those who take shortcuts and are able to do jobs at artificially cheap prices as a result, undercutting those who do it properly.

  Nothing to fear, but everything to be annoyed with a client basically about a nothing issue. It was in the 2nd post he was told what the electrician did was legal.

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## Neptune

> (Which 99% of whom are replying are not sparkies)

  And you support this statement with?    

> I'm sure your mate does not mind you asking him question's, as I don't mind my clients asking me questions, but I think it might be a different story if he knew you were doubting his abilities to perform the job he's qualified to do in such a public way ?.

  The OP hasn't named the sparkie, he simply asked a question in the Electrical section of a Public Forum,   

> BP connectors - sparky says one thing, does another 
>                           We're (licenced sparky and I) finishing off the final circuits in a  large shed, which will be the last power circuit, and the last lighting  circuit. I've been assisting with the manual labour and having a good  look at how he does stuff, making sure all the aesthetics are right,  switches and light fittings are all exactly where I want them etc, and  asking lots of questions (no....he doesn't mind this as we've known each  other for many years). 
> Doing the light switches I asked if the BP connectors tying all the  neutrals and the earths together needed to be taped over the "open"  ends, knowing that the rules generally sway towards ensuring nothing can  get into where live conductors are terminated especially when you have a  steel frame structure. He said yeah they do. I checked a couple of  light switches which he had already wired on a previous occasion which  sit on plywood panels forming a cavity wall against the steel shed  framing and they (the BP connectors) weren't taped at all. 
> To tape or not to tape up the BP connectors? He said one thing and  appears to have done another. Is his lack of taping them an omission I  need to point out to him or is it not actually required?

   

> I know I would not like such trivial information being posted of a forum and being made out that what I was doing was of such a major safety risk, I would rather you sit down and ask me if you had a concern about something, and we can discuss it like adults, instead of running to a forum to ask everyone else's opinion about something they probably don't know the answer to.

  It seems to be a fair question for an electrical forum and also seems to have been adequately answered by the first reply. 
However this,   

> I checked a couple of  light switches which he had already wired on a previous occasion which  sit on plywood panels forming a cavity wall against the steel shed  framing and they (the BP connectors) weren't taped at all.

   may well have been a reason for the difference as these were enclosed in plywood so less likely to come in contact with the steel frame.     

> I wonder how you would feel if your boss was taking secret pictures of what you do at work, posting these and asking complete strangers if what your doing is correct or not.

  But he didn't take pictures of someone elses work and post it here.   

> I'd be pretty peeved if I found someone going to a  forum doubting my work, especially to people that are not  qualified.

  And you support this   

> especially to people that are not  qualified.

   statement with?

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## Random Username

Well, the sparkie who did this didn't feel any need to use insulation tape...

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## METRIX

> Nothing to fear, but everything to be annoyed with a client basically about a nothing issue. It was in the 2nd post he was told what the electrician did was legal.

  Agree, This world is made up of all sorts of people, some nice and some not so nice.    

> But he didn't take pictures of someone elses work and post it here.

  But he did take a photo showing a number of BP'S with no tape on them, then titled the thread, BP connectors - sparky says one thing, does another and the OP reply comment on the photo was   

> Yeah think I might tape them up for *him* then while the power is off just  to be certain.

  Without the OP stating this was HIS work, he mentioned that *he* would tape the connections for *him*, indicating the photo was taken of work being performed by his electrician not by the OP. 
Now I might be wrong as I'm not a Sparkie, but I would assume it's OK for a NON Licensed contractor to dig any trenches, run some conduit, 
even feed some wires through for the Sparkie to save labor charges (while supervised to ensure no damage was done to the wiring).  
I would not think it's OK for a NON Licensed person to be making any termination's, or connections no matter how trivial those connections may be, 
if it's anything related to mains connections, I would be of the thinking that this is the domain of a License contractor to perform these connections, as the OP pointed out later that picture was of *his* work. 
Now I know he is NOT a Licensed Electrician, so why is he terminating switch wiring and especially unsupervised, no matter how explicit the instructions were from this mysterious electrician, 
I would not think this is normal practice in the industry.    

> That is a photograph of MY work, done under his explicit verbal instruction on an inactive circuit

  Is this "Normal" industry practice to have your client running wires, terminating connections all fully unsupervised, while asking for help from complete strangers on a forum ?.
 if you go back to the OP 5 postings they entirely revolve around this back to front shed and how to install the electrical's for it, take for instance this post.  http://www.renovateforum.com/f242/si...wiring-106596/
 The opening line from the OP was.   

> None of these circuits are currently live, nor are any terminations done  anywhere (that's his job). He will be inspecting wiring installation  progress later next week

  Or another post by the OP http://www.renovateforum.com/f195/sh...anning-106411/   

> Sparky will do terminating so not my prob. I just leave cable hanging  out of the backing blocks, conduit, or junction boxes as applicable  after we've agreed on where everything is going

  Call me Naive, but that goes totally against what he is saying in this post.  

> That is a photograph of MY work, done under his  explicit verbal instruction on an inactive circuit

  Something does not add up on this one, I know the Sparkies we use this is definitely NOT normal practice, I do allow my guys to assist our Sparkies "supervised" if they are under the pump, but it's only to save them some of the mundane work, definitely NOT stripping or terminating any wiring, I know I can easily strip and twist a few wires together, Hey I could probably even wire up a two way switch if I sat down and thought about it, but tht's not the point, as I am NOT allowed to do it, even if I seek advice from complete stranger on a forum, or reference AS documentation. 
Please feel free to correct me on this Neptune, or in fact any other Licensed Sparkies on this forum as it's always been a complaint from a lot of posters, that if anything is mentioned about touching 240 then the Sparkies kick up a stink as this is specifically the domain of a Licensed Electrician to be touching anything 240, and I agree if it's 240 you get the professionals in to deal with it. 
I would like to hear from you guys as to your thoughts on this OP performing all this work unsupervised.

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## Marc

Considering that if you google "taping over cable connectors" two thread come up, one in the US and this one, your question has gone global and way out of here. 
I suppose that Metrix has a point. 
By the way, cable connectors do not need taping over. I have no sparky license in Australia but have done hundred of switchboards up o/seas and helped a sparky mate to do work for me for years and we have never taped over cable connectors just like you wouldn't tape over the back of switch or powerpoints. In fact that would be a tell that the job was done by an unlicensed person. 
Why did your sparky tell you that they need tape? I would ask him rather than ask here. I suppose it makes the layman feel better to see everything wrapped up? May be. 
or perhaps there is no licensed sparky at all, only a virtual unlicensed hologram?

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## phild01

A sparky I had taped over the light switch terminations, which bemused me, but wondered if it was his exclusive way of 1: ensuring a loose connection doesn't come adrift (tight initially, but maybe a wire slipping sideways under the fixing screw over time) or 2: wanted a tell tale sign his work was redone!

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## woodbe

I've had plenty of sparkies do electrical work for me at home and in commercial settings. I can't remember any BP's not being taped. It may or may not be required under any regs, but it is certainly very common practice.

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## Smurf

> I would like to hear from you guys as to your thoughts on this OP performing all this work unsupervised.

  Around here (Tas) it's fairly straightforward and I'd assume other states would be the same or similar. 
To perform "electrical work" as defined by law, you need to either hold a Practitioners' license (electrician's license) or be an apprentice under a formal training arrangement. Anything else is illegal and that's very clear. A trades assistant (non-licensed) can assist with digging trenches, hauling cables and fixing things into place but they cannot connect the wiring. 
It's the same principle as driving a car. You either need to have a drivers' license, or you need to be under a formal training arrangement (that is, you have a learners' license and are being supervised by someone who themselves has a drivers' license). If you don't have either a drivers' license or a learners' license then you are not permitted to drive a vehicle on a public street. 
There's a degree of commonsense in that, at least around here, but that generally relates to an emergency situation only. Police aren't likely to actually fine an unlicensed driver if they drove a vehicle because doing so was necessary to save someone's life and the electricity distributor won't in practice object to anyone who knows how to do it removing the service fuse if doing so is necessary to avoid an immediate threat of fire or shock. But we're talking about real emergencies there, someone in a coma in the middle of nowhere where there's no communication available so you drive them to hospital or something like that. The sort of thing that, if it went to court, a reasonable person would see as being a reasonable action to have taken under the circumstances at the time. 
Wiring a new house or renovation is most certainly not an emergency however. Maybe if a cyclone flattens a city then normal rules might be overlooked in order to get a roof over people's heads, but under normal circumstances the law is pretty clear. No license and not an apprentice = you can't do it. 
The only real exception to this is someone who holds a Restricted Electrical License. For example, a plumber can have an REL which permits them to disconnect and reconnect hot water systems only, and then only if the new one uses the same or less power than the old one. They can't work on the switchboard, they can't run a new cable, but they can disconnect the HWS in order to do their primary task of plumbing work to repair or replace it. Same applies to a few other trades - eg refrigeration mechanics who aren't electricians can have an REL such that they can disconnect power to an air-conditioner etc.

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## Smurf

> I've had plenty of sparkies do electrical work for me at home and in commercial settings. I can't remember any BP's not being taped. It may or may not be required under any regs, but it is certainly very common practice.

  +1 
If an inspector turns up then seeing whether or not BP connectors are taped is something they'll certainly notice since it's very obvious. And if no tape then that suggests that whoever did the work is keen on doing the minimum - a rational inspector will then take a harder look at the overall job. 
I really don't know if the law requires it or not, but I do know that inspectors like to see tape and they like to see things neat and orderly. So I use tape and do things in a manner that's neat and orderly. Just like I'm always polite if dealing with police for any reason. No reason to get people in positions of authority offside when it's easy to keep them happy.

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## mattski2008

I think an inspector would rather see them not taped. Nearly all BP's are clear now and you can see a good connection at a quick glance. All the sparkies here would also know of the sticky residue that comes with the removal of tape that has been on connectors/cables for years.

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## UseByDate

> (Which 99% of whom are replying are not sparkies)

  Surely, not having an electrical licence should not disqualify you from giving advice.
 Anecdote.
 A friend of mine, who has a wife and at the time two small children, arrived home from work to find the company that was installing a new kitchen had left two bare wires hanging from the kitchen wall.
 He phoned the kitchen company to report the wires.
 The company reply was that's OK they are not connected to anything
 My friend connected a multimeter to the wires and found 240 volts. He phoned the company again to report.
 The company reply was  it's just the voltage induced into the wires by nearby wiring. It is high impedance and is perfectly safe.
 My friend then connected a 240volt bulb to the wires and it lit up. He phoned the company again to report.
 The company reply was  _Expletive deleted._ We will be there in 10 minutes 
 My friend does not have an electrical licence but did have the knowledge to protect himself, his wife and his children.

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## Marc

Hi Use, your story is perfectly credible in fact I had a similar situation only the bare wires where in a 10mm hole inside the brick where an external powerpoint was supposed to be wired, and they kept on tripping the switch. Yes electricians make mistakes too not only carpenters or plumbers or brickies or priest or doctors or chemist or climatologist ...
However I think the point here is a simple one. It seems to me ... (happy to be corrected) ... that the electrician in question in the OP story that is ...is fictional, a literary licenCe, a creation to extract instructions 'how to' without attracting the ires of the resident electricians who, true to local tradition would never reveal secrets of the trade otherwise. 
if you don't believe me, try to start a thread ... "How can *I* wire a 4 way switch?" hu hu, now that would be a crowd pleaser ...  :Smilie:

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## UseByDate

It did really happen in the way I stated. Love the "C"

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## Marc

Hu hu, Use ... I believe you, was talking about the OP electrician ha ha, good one!

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## phild01

Has anyone considered that with the wide use of drugs and alcohol that a licenced tradie could turn up in no condition to do critical work.  Society does what it can to protect itself... but a licence is no guarantee against this.  May not happen much but I would like to oversee  any work done for me.
...and this problem can be anywhere, in the medical and legal professions as well.

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## paddyjoy

> but a licence is no guarantee against this.

  Agree a license is no guarantee against anything. Just because you have a drivers license doesn't mean you will drive in perfect adherence to all the rules and regulations. You might actually find someone driving without a license is more likely to follow the rules closer for fear of being caught.

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## Bros

I'd like to refer posters to the sticky at the top of the Electrical Forum. I am careful giving advise and will only give the bare minimum. If the poster wants and detailed information I just back out and leave the advise to the others as I cannot know the ability of the poster. All the information given here even by experts can only be general in nature as like most information it can be hard to pick the wheat from the chaff so care needs to be exercised when acting on that advise.

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## Bros

> You might actually find someone driving without a license is more likely to follow the rules closer for fear of being caught.

  But applying that to anything else like building, plumbing, gas fitting, electrical and many other trades and professions it is to know the rules. 
From my experience reading AS 3000 is not easy.

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## oldtrack123

> I think an inspector would rather see them not taped. Nearly all BP's are clear now and you can see a good connection at a quick glance. All the sparkies here would also know of the sticky residue that comes with the removal of tape that has been on connectors/cables for years.

  HI 
When I did my electrical workers board Exam [a looooong time ago ] you lost points for taping connectors
 The idea  was the cables should be insulated right up to the connector tunnel, Just as applied to switchs ,sockets etc
& that was with the old BLUE point connectors
The modern connectors have a much longer shroud  
Having said that, in practise there can be situations where taping should be considered ,but normal wiring such as the those in question is not one of them 
While Random user's pic looks a mess, it is very unlikely to lead to problems & complies to the rules
All the cables appear to to have full insulation right up to the connector tunnel
They are in an ENCLOSED non metalic  J box. 
 However I would suggest terminal strips would have been a much better way [still without tape]  
ps
 I too suspect this thread  is not kosher.
Too many questions on how/ what should be done!!!

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## oldtrack123

HI Smurf
THe Limited licences for plumbers etc are pretty much standard in all states IMHO

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## METRIX

> Surely, not having an electrical licence should not disqualify you from giving advice.
>  .

  Of course it does not exclude you from giving advice, but if someone is asking a specific question about a specific issue relating to a licensed contractor doing something or not, would it not be better if another licensed contractor who should know the rules replies, rather than have many replies from those that "are not sure" or "what they think" or "this is what I would do", this leaves the question unanswered, which I see all the time on most forums. 
I know if I reply to a question on this forum I will give the advice they were after as required by any standards etc, 
There has to be a rule relating to this, is it a case of the the modern BP which is clear does not require tape so the connections can be inspected. 
If you look at the design of the original BP connector to the newer type, the old ones were small, (Bakelite type ones) they had a screw which was close to the outer surface, the entry was small and really offered only minimal protection, this was probably due to the electrical systems in houses being fairly simple in comparison to modern houses with km of wiring in them nowadays. 
In comparison the new connectors, offer a deep recess for the screw, the entry has a large shroud, and can accommodate more wires inserted in them, plus they are see through.
So possibly tape was required with the old style connectors, but is not required with the new ones, I play with timber not electrical's, but surely someone who does must know the rules ?

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## METRIX

> Hi Use, your story is perfectly credible in fact I had a similar situation only the bare wires where in a 10mm hole inside the brick where an external powerpoint was supposed to be wired, and they kept on tripping the switch. Yes electricians make mistakes too not only carpenters or plumbers or brickies or priest or doctors or chemist or climatologist ...
> However I think the point here is a simple one. It seems to me ... (happy to be corrected) ... that the electrician in question in the OP story that is ...is fictional, a literary licenCe, a creation to extract instructions 'how to' without attracting the ires of the resident electricians who, true to local tradition would never reveal secrets of the trade otherwise. 
> if you don't believe me, try to start a thread ... "How can *I* wire a 4 way switch?" hu hu, now that would be a crowd pleaser ...

   :2thumbsup:

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## METRIX

> A friend of mine, who has a wife and at the time two small children, arrived home from work to find the company that was installing a new kitchen had left two bare wires hanging from the kitchen wall.
>  He phoned the kitchen company to report the wires.
>  The company reply was that's OK they are not connected to anything
>  My friend connected a multimeter to the wires and found 240 volts. He phoned the company again to report.
>  The company reply was  it's just the voltage induced into the wires by nearby wiring. It is high impedance and is perfectly safe.
>  My friend then connected a 240volt bulb to the wires and it lit up. He phoned the company again to report.
>  The company reply was  _Expletive deleted._ We will be there in 10 minutes 
>  My friend does not have an electrical licence but did have the knowledge to protect himself, his wife and his children.

  And you don't need a License to buy and use a multimeter, people commonly buy them and stick them in power points etc.
I have no problem with this, as that's what the device is for, and I have no problem with what your mate did, this shows a bit of common sense, but I do have an issue with a Non Licensed person terminating new wiring and using a forum as the guide how to do it. 
I'm sure I'm not alone in having a problem with a clearly unlicensed person posting on forums asking repeated very detailed questions in relation to wiring up what appears to be a very complicated installation.
I don't believe in the "secret tradesman handshake" theory that some non tradies seem to think their all "out to rip you off"as there is no such thing as far as I'm concerned, but I do play to the rules which state what can and cannot be done. 
Irrespective if it's electrical, plumbing or building, there is a reason why we do apprenticeships, study and have to pass exams both practical and theory based, and why it takes many years to achieve these qualifications, and in the end have a Contractors License to prove this.
It's just the same as any profession, you don't just become a doctor, you have to do many years of study etc, there is no difference, but some people seem to treat tradies Contractor License as though it doesn't matter. 
Before it's mentioned, yes I agree having a card that says your a Contractor does not necessarily mean you are any good at your job, it' just means you "should" know what your doing, again this is no difference to anything else.
I must see 100 people a day that I'm sure they got their car license from the Corn Flakes Packet, because they cannot drive to save their life and are simply a menace on the road, but they have a license. 
On the subject of car drivers, the thing that Pees me off on the roads, is how so many people are playing with their bloody phones, checking an email because their so important, you can tell straight away who is doing it, because the lights change and they just sit there, checking that important email, then you beep at them and they immediately look up, because they were looking down at their phone, then continue to drive all over the place as they try desperately to finish the email, I would seriously say in Sydney 5 out of 10 sets of lights you stop at this happens. 
I especially hate this because I had my truck side swiped out front of my house by someone who was playing with their phone and not concentrating on where they were driving, it was only lucky my neighbor got their number plate as they drove off in a hurry.
In the end the insurance company got hold of their phone records and it was shown they were SMS'ing around the time my neighbor saw them drive off, so it was fairly obvious why they hit the car, they would have been charged also for leaving the scene of an accident, sucked in, because it was of great inconvenience to me to loose my truck for the time it was being repaired.

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## Marc

I think the Op has dutch rolled this thread long enough.

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## plum

Reading his old threads / posts in a new context is quite amusing.   :Biggrin:

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## METRIX

> I think the Op has dutch rolled this thread long enough.

  Although i will say the holes in the walls were very neat. 
Perhaps he has turned the shed on and got a bit of a surprise. 
The below pic will also go into the New Deck advice thread.

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## UseByDate

> Hu hu, Use ... I believe you, was talking about the OP electrician ha ha, good one!

  Sorry Marc. I lost concentration due to the smell of dinner wafting past my nose. :Blush7:

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## Marc

And what long nose do you have!
Ha ha, It is good we can make fun of each other without much consequence ... well leaving the "global warming" thread aside that is... huhu 
I say the OP should consider buying himself a wiring rules book, join an evening class and ask his ghost electrician, even if only in spirit,  to support him in sitting for the exam.

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## UseByDate

> Of course it does not exclude you from giving advice, but if someone is asking a specific question about a specific issue relating to a licensed contractor doing something or not, would it not be better if another licensed contractor who should know the rules replies, rather than have many replies from those that "are not sure" or "what they think" or "this is what I would do", this leaves the question unanswered, which I see all the time on most forums.
> I know if I reply to a question on this forum I will give the advice they were after as required by any standards etc, 
> There has to be a rule relating to this, is it a case of the the modern BP which is clear does not require tape so the connections can be inspected. 
> If you look at the design of the original BP connector to the newer type, the old ones were small, (Bakelite type ones) they had a screw which was close to the outer surface, the entry was small and really offered only minimal protection, this was probably due to the electrical systems in houses being fairly simple in comparison to modern houses with km of wiring in them nowadays. 
> In comparison the new connectors, offer a deep recess for the screw, the entry has a large shroud, and can accommodate more wires inserted in them, plus they are see through.
> So possibly tape was required with the old style connectors, but is not required with the new ones, I play with timber not electrical's, but surely someone who does must know the rules ?

  The problem with the “rules” is that they are not prescriptive. They are open to interpretation and even electricians interpret the rules differently. Some electricians are saying that it is common practice in their part of the country to “tape up the connectors” and others are saying “that it is not necessary to tape” 
 The standard says.....
 AS/NZS 3000:2007   3.7.2.2 _Preparation for connection_ _The insulation on a conductor shall not be removed any further than is necessary to make the connection._ _For connections between insulated conductors, the connection shall be insulated to provide a degree of insulation not inferior to that of the conductors. Any damaged insulation shall be reinstated._ 
 My thoughts on whether to tape “BP” connectors in wall cavities, behind switches, in domestic installations or not... 
 From memory all wiring must be double insulated unless housed within an insulating enclosure that can only be opened with a tool. Eg electrical conduit or junction box. The above states that if a cable is joined the connection shall be insulated to provide a degree of insulation not inferior to that of the conductors. i.e. the sheath shall be reinstated. This can be achieved with the use of electrical tape. It is not necessary to reinstate the sheath if the connection is housed in an insulated box.
 Now comes the judgement call.
 Does the wall cavity of a house constitute an insulated enclosure? 
 When an electrician uses conduit or junction boxes or electrical tape he/she knows that they have been manufactured to an electrical standard that can be relied on. A wall cavity is not built to any *electrical* standard.
 Some electricians will only use components manufactured to electrical standards (and use tape in wall cavities to comply with the rules). Others have no problem with accepting that a wall cavity is an insulated box (timber frame/plasterboard) and don't see the need for tape. 
 I would be happy to let an electrician install “BP” connectors, without tape, within wall cavities (timber frame/plaster board) in my house. On the other hand; if the electrician says that it is common practice (read mandatory) to tape the connectors then I would be happy for the connectors to be taped.   
 PS single insulated cable can be housed in “earthed” metal enclosures also. 
 A lot of the above is from memory. I may be wrong and I await criticism.

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## Marc

By the way, I have a pertinent question to pose to the thinking heads around here:
A friend of mine has been running a fever for a few days and his doctor tells him to let it run its course. It is a viral infection.
I was telling him, that in a similar situation my doctor prescribed me antibiotics and told me I had to take the whole box. 
Google is inconclusive and so I ask you what do you think? Should my friend buy antibiotics or not?

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## r3nov8or

Antibiotics kill bacteria, not viruses 
see Summary Infections - bacterial and viral | Better Health Channel

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## Marc

Mm ...

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## phild01

Doctor Google won that one :Wink 1:

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## Marc

But that wasn't the question ...  :Smilie:

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## r3nov8or

> But that wasn't the question ...

  I think you have enough information to advise your, err, "friend"

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## Pulse

Marc, your friend can't buy antibiotics without a prescription. For the record it sounds viral,  
Pulse MD  
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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## Marc

I see ... OK, here it goes, I asked if my friend should BUY antibiotics. 
The answer is that is up to him, he can buy whatever he likes as long as he does not take it since a licensed health professional told him not to.
So when we jump to give advice in an area we are unfamiliar with, we make easy mistakes. Just like me giving advice on concreting or roofing or the latest fashion in shoes.  
By the way antibiotics in a case of viral infection are not necessarily excluded and it takes a license and a decade of experience to discern if it is needed or not.  
There are many situations like that in the building industry and the electrical trade. It is not right to try to steal an answer with false pretenses only to cheat a profession out of his money.

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## r3nov8or

As is often the case here, the advice offered in response to your scenario was not intended to be conclusive or prescriptive, but intended to give you more information upon which to base your own conclusions.

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## phild01

> .... to cheat a profession out of his money.

  So we should all be precluded from doing our own thing prescribing an aspirin, fixing a car, building a deck, being a handyman, do gardening, clear gutters, walk the dog, clean the dog, dig a hole, clean the house, look after kids, clean windows etc, simply because there are professions that do all these type of things!!??

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## justonething

> So we should all be precluded from doing our own thing prescribing an aspirin, fixing a car, building a deck, being a handyman, do gardening, clear gutters, walk the dog, clean the dog, dig a hole, clean the house, look after kids, clean windows etc, simply because there are professions that do all these type of things!!??

  Add looking after one's superannuation to that too  :Smilie:

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## Marc

I think you are reading too much into my little stunt, that in my eyes was rather obvious. Sure you must realise there is no friend with a fever in need of second opinion. 
Since this interesting thread originated with a similar stunt, I thought the relation was clear.

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## phild01

> I think you are reading too much into my little stunt, that in my eyes was rather obvious. Sure you must realise there is no friend with a fever in need of second opinion. 
> Since this interesting thread originated with a similar stunt, I thought the relation was clear.

  Yep, got the stunt already :Smilie:

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## r3nov8or

> So we should all be precluded from doing our own thing prescribing an aspirin, fixing a car, building a deck, being a handyman, do gardening, clear gutters, walk the dog, clean the dog, dig a hole, clean the house, look after kids, clean windows etc, simply because there are professions that do all these type of things!!??

   +1.  
(But "professions"? Some of these things require a profession, some trades, some are jobs.)

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## phild01

Bros is away but has requested this thread stay close to topic. 
Off topic continues:  http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/bp...-contd-115948/

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## thesainter

From someone who does domestic, best practice is using a cable tie to hold back any BP connections, and keeping the striped length of single insulation to a minimum <75mm, but not so short it is unworkable especially with multiple switches. 
Anywho taped is not needed, and if the switches/GPO's have some form of metal cladding (even the sisalation, type) on the backside of the fitting; it should be protected with a shourd, or if the wall bracket is mounted to steel, etc, it should be earth to the frame.

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