# Forum Home Renovation Tools & Products  Power Tools and electricity prices

## Ricardito

I just wonder what would be more efficient in the long run to run corded or battery charged power tools?
I have not metered any tool yet but I thought to be an interesting topic starter considering electricity prices are set to escalate in the next few years.   :Biggrin:

----------


## Nonimus

don't see how much you would really save as both require electricity. You will still need to charge the battery in order to use a cordless tool. I think this really is a mute comparison. 
Edit also remember usually cordless devices cost alot more so that must also be factored in if only considering price in the long run. Comparing apples with apples you'll prolly come out better with corded devices imo.

----------


## Master Splinter

Corded would win.  They'll only consumer power while you are using them; cordless will self-discharge when not used, so effectively they are 'on' even when you are not using them.

----------


## Bloss

mmm  . . .  current retail electricity (well it depends where you are) say NSW  around 22c kWh so that's a 1000W  device running solidly for 1 hour cost you 22c. Average drill - say 350W so about 7c an hour if you run it for a full hour non-stop. Double that  - 14c an hour running non-stop, double again, 28c an hour running non-stop. 
mmm . . . my take: power in Australia is cheap as chips and even when we double and double again - it's still cheap and when we get to power it all from the sun what would it matter .  .  . [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR6wok7g7do]YouTube - Don&#39;t Panic![/ame]

----------


## Nonimus

> mmm . . . my take: power in Australia is cheap as chips and even when we double and double again - it's still cheap and when we get to power it all from the sun what would it matter .  .  . YouTube - Don't Panic!

  hmm many would not agree with you seeing the cost of living only in regards to power has sky rocketed over the last few years, yet wages have not increased by the same as rising living costs.

----------


## Bushmiller

> hmm many would not agree with you seeing the cost of living only in regards to power has sky rocketed over the last few years, yet wages have not increased by the same as rising living costs.

  I think the relativity is in regards to other parts of the world, not relative to our wages. My impression is that CPI has been around 2.5% for some years. 
I have to agree that frequently it doesn't seem like we are making any headway. 
Interestingly, the wholesale cost of electricity production has hardly increased since early in the naughties and most power generators on the Eastern seaboard are forecasting a financial loss for 2011. So I leave it to your imagination as to who is actually making a profit between the power generators and the elctricty distributors/retailers. 
Regards
Paul

----------


## Nonimus

> I think the relativity is in regards to other parts of the world, not relative to our wages.

  well i think we all agree that it is relative to wages that is our concern, at the end of it all we are having less and less in our pockets and some are struggling to live adequately especially those on aged pensions etc even with the meager discount they receive on power.

----------


## chrisp

Going by the smiley in the opening post, I suspect the original question is a bit tongue-in-cheek.  However, I'll offer my $0.15...   

> mmm  . . .  current retail electricity (well it depends where you are) say NSW  around 22c kWh so that's a 1000W  device running solidly for 1 hour cost you 22c. Average drill - say 350W so about 7c an hour if you run it for a full hour non-stop. Double that  - 14c an hour running non-stop, double again, 28c an hour running non-stop. 
> mmm . . . my take: power in Australia is cheap as chips and even when we double and double again - it's still cheap and when we get to power it all from the sun what would it matter .  .

  Bloss is absolutely right (again) - energy is dirt cheap. 
Here is a quote from a post from the FFW on a similar topic (updated with current prices in red)...   

> Part of the problem, I think, as that we have all become a bit spoilt  with the relatively low cost of energy.  It doesn't really matter if you  talk petrol, gas or electricity - they are all *dirt cheap!* 
> Let me repeat that - *dirt cheap* - do you believe it? 
> If I asked a average person to work for the equivalent cost of the energy they produce, I'd be charged with exploitation. 
> For example, a 80kg person running (i.e. hard work) for 8 hours consumes:*30 kJ/kg/hr x 80kg x 8 hr =  19200 kJ*Their useful work output would be far less, but we'll use input figures for this exercise (pun  ). 
> Electricity costs the average household about [s]$0.14/kWh[/s]  $0.22/kWh*1 kWh = 60 x 60 kJ = 3600 kJ (=*[s]$0.14[/s]* $0.22  )*The cost in electricity per kJ:[s]$0.14[/s]* $0.22 / 3600 =* [s]$0.0000389[/s] *$0.0000611*Cost of energy used by a 80kg person running for 8 hours:*19200kJ x* [s]$0.0000389[/s]* $0.0000611* */kJ =* [s]$0.75[/s]* $1.17*If  that person was paid at the going rate for the work they do at the same  rate we typically pay for electricity, they'd earn less than:[s]$0.10[/s] *$0.15 per hour*I  suspect most of us produce far less output (=energy) in a typical day.   Would you be willing to work hard for 8 hours to be paid less than [s]$0.10[/s] $0.15 per hour? 
> I'm sure the energy cost per unit for petrol is higher, but I'm an electrical engineer, not a chemical engineer  *The point I'm trying to make is that we have under valued the true worth  of our energy supply.  We are using energy sources that took millions  of years to produce and burning it up like it costs nothing.*   Are we all looking forward to the Carbon Tax? - Page 2 - Woodwork Forums

----------


## Nonimus

> Going by the smiley in the opening post, I suspect the original question is a bit tongue-in-cheek.  However, I'll offer my $0.15...   
> Bloss is absolutely right (again) - energy is dirt cheap. 
> Here is a quote from a post from the FFW on a similar topic (updated with current prices in red)...

  I think what you are forgetting (as with those people trying to spin the carbon tax as being a positive) is yes house electricity cost will rise but so will industry costs and so will transport which ultimately the consumer will not only have to pay for an increase in household electricity but also on all good on sale. 
All the food and goods will rise due to transport costs and the carbon cost associated with producing the good which ultimately gets passed onto the consumer. Watch international purchases through the internet rise when this comes into effect. No one will buy goods made here unless they have to, If only food could be bought the same then I would be laughing.

----------


## sundancewfs

With the advent of smart meters, now you could choose to only recharge your battery powered tools during off-peak hours when electricity is cheaper still.  :Biggrin:

----------


## Nonimus

god i hope to avoid the smart meters as you really don't know when the off peak period will be as it changes depending on demand..

----------


## Oldneweng

Just starting on this forum. My take is that cordless tools lose power in the charging stage(as heat etc) and as has already been mentioned, by loses from the battery during storage so without going to complex calcs would cost more to run. But they are different tools and often used for different purposes. I don't really think it is fair to compare them in general.  
I use cordless (drill only) first up as it is so convenient but if I need more power grab a corded one. I have 2 identical cordless (1 is brand new unused as yet) GMC 2 speed drills. Without the faster speed I would not try drilling into metals. Usually drilling metal is done with a corded drill, the drill press for choice but otherwise a hand held. 
Either way the total cost of energy would be minimal and it would probably make more sense to consider the cost of consumables caused by excess wear and damage by using the wrong drill for the application. Eg. drilling holes in steel at a slow speed can burn drill bit tips and flutes. Also I find that cordless drills are better suited to screwing operations. Mine are anyway. My big corded can break off screws without even trying if the torque is not right. With over 50year old hardwood frames in my house I would rather the drill to struggle than just snap off the screw. Speaking from experience here. 
Speaking of drills has anybody thought about the rise in cost for drill bits recently. I used to buy, say 0.5in drill bit for about $12 - $15. Recently I decided to top up missing bits and was shocked to find they cannot be had in my area for less than $25 - $30. Also no one seems to stock full diameter shanks anymore. Only reduced shanks. I thought that strange as 3/8 or 10mm chucks used to be common but are now quite rare from my observations. Gasweld had Frost drill bit sets (1mm - 13mm and Imp equvalent) for $49 each so I grabbed one of each. 
Dean

----------


## Oldneweng

Smart meters. Great idea. Make the customer pay for them, but never own them. Every report I have read from oversea has been negative. But remember that you can save money! Just go out and look at the current cost before cooking tea. Too expensive now, wait til later. Midnight meals anyone. Air con? No, too expensive right now.  
We were told (In a leaflet) we can save money but I couldn't figure out how until now. Thanks to *sundancewfs* I now know! I can't wait for those extra dollars to roll in. 
Dean

----------


## chrisp

> We were told (In a leaflet) we can save money but I couldn't figure out how until now. Thanks to *sundancewfs* I now know! I can't wait for those extra dollars to roll in.

  Have you noticed that most appliances (dishwasher, washing machine, dryer) have a delayed start option?  Now you know why! 
I understand that using delayed start is common place in Europe (but I might be wrong?) and a lot of appliances are sold worldwide - hence the delayed start function appearing in our market (even though it didn't really make sense here - until now).

----------


## Nonimus

the smart meters are a joke, the for ever moving goal posts of when off peak and peak times are is simply a joke. If before the off peak was 9pm and all of a sudden there is great demand during this time then it no longer is off peak during this time, one can't rely on when the period will acutally be because of the forever moving goal posts. 
If you are a fan of the new meters, then  :Doh:

----------


## chrisp

The *average* demand for electricity has been slowly growing - no surprises there. 
However, the *peak* demand has been growth at a rate of about 50% more than the average demand. 
The whole electricity infrastructure (the generators, the power lines, transformers, etc) need to be sized to cope with the *peak* demand - which may only occur a few percent of the time. 
We are rapidly reaching a point where the system is struggling to cope with the *peak* demand. 
So, what do you do?  Either build more generators, power lines, transformers (which cost $$$) to cover events that might happen a day or so every year.  Or, do you encourage consumers to use energy in non-peak times (by charging more in peak times)? 
Either way, it is going to cost. 
The alternative is rolling blackouts.

----------


## Wombat2

Or you go solar like we did. 3000w grid feed system and after the first full quarter we're $143 in credit. Output looks to be down this quarter due to the extended cloud cover - but we will still be in credit - just not as much.  Due to the feed in tariff being 50c/kwH and usage at 22c/kwH I figure break-even cost wise to be around 8kwH per day out of the sun and we are laughing

----------


## TermiMonster

I'm thinking of inventing the solar powered, cordless extension cord.
Who's in? :Yikes2:

----------


## Nonimus

> Or you go solar like we did. 3000w grid feed system and after the first full quarter we're $143 in credit. Output looks to be down this quarter due to the extended cloud cover - but we will still be in credit - just not as much.  Due to the feed in tariff being 50c/kwH and usage at 22c/kwH I figure break-even cost wise to be around 8kwH per day out of the sun and we are laughing

  Yes I think everyone would not have a problem going solar although the sticking point is the initial outlay and if you factor that into the equation and calculate how long would it take for you to break even it would be like a decade. As to how long your solar cells will continue to work after that time, well if going by my solarhart not very long.

----------


## Bloss

> As to how long your solar cells will continue to work after that time, well if going by my solarhart not very long.

  Solar PV is not solar thermal hot water - completely different animals - one uses the heat from the sun mainly in the infrared wavelength (HWS) the other uses light mainly in the blue ranges (the heat reduces performance). 
Solar PV has already had more than 40 years of service in real life  - albeit it drops in performance around 20% after 25 years or so - by which time any costs are well and truly paid and the power is free. 
HWS generally fail because of the water - so the tanks and anything else exposed to possible corrosion. Use of copper & stainless steel or in heat exchange type systems remove that problem.

----------


## Nonimus

> Solar PV is not solar thermal hot water - completely different animals - one uses the heat from the sun mainly in the infrared wavelength (HWS) the other uses light mainly in the blue ranges (the heat reduces performance). 
> Solar PV has already had more than 40 years of service in real life  - albeit it drops in performance around 20% after 25 years or so - by which time any costs are well and truly paid and the power is free. 
> HWS generally fail because of the water - so the tanks and anything else exposed to possible corrosion. Use of copper & stainless steel or in heat exchange type systems remove that problem.

  tbo if i have to wait 15 years before making anything on solar panels personally I would think twice. Who knows what will happen in 15 years and whether I'll still be around. 
I like the idea of solar but the expense to set it up and the initial outlay you have to think is it going to be an investment if you have to wait like 15 years for it to return anything for you, and as to whether you will be in that home in that time and whether the cells will have no issues then or whether You would be around even then. The government rebates on this needs to be greater to put everyone on to it as apposed to what they currently offer. 
I toyed with putting in a 1.5Kw setup but it was really a waste and scrapped the idea.

----------


## Bloss

> tbo if i have to wait 15 years before making anything on solar panels personally I would think twice. I toyed with putting in a 1.5Kw setup but it was really a waste and scrapped the idea.

  It's not 15 years and in any case should be seen like any other investment. _With subsidies_ as in ACT _payback is under 2 years_ for a 1.5kW system and _positive returns_ relative to an equivalent  safe investment starts at around _6-7 years_. But to get that you are locking up cash into a fixed revenue earning asset - and you can't get access the cash (unlike a bank deposit). So like all investments - it depends what you are seeking (income stream which PV gives, or capital growth which it doesn't - it depreciates over time) and what age you are (and so the likelihood of being around the get the return) and so on. 
But the OP was about choosing different tools to account for rising electricity prices - my answer is the same: power is cheap, will be cheap even if doubled and there are many better ways to save on power costs than by a few fewer watts in your tools. (Have any halogen lamps in your house do you? Have an electric HWS [but if using 100% 'greenpower' then why does that matter?]? Is your fridge older than 5 years and worse than 3 star (new) - or do you 2 or more fridges? Do you have 3 or 4 TVs? Do you simply flick a switch and set a temperature for heating and cooling? If the answer is yes then even using these in smarter ways will save more than the price increases will be - get to a 'no' for most of those and your power and gas bills will drop dramatically. 
So the choices are easy - we can _whinge_ and pay more for our energy use than we need to _or we can act_ to do a few simple things and pay much less. 
I find it amusing that so many prefer to take the first option.

----------


## Nonimus

> So the choices are easy - we can _whinge_ and pay more for our energy use than we need to _or we can act_ to do a few simple things and pay much less. 
> I find it amusing that so many prefer to take the first option.

  What I find amusing is that it seems Australians are willing to accept things like increase prices and taxes and go ahead and justify the stance of governments and big business and forever are asking for more lube. Its like the battered wife syndrome justifying reasons as to stay and continue to be abused. 
Its about time people do actually whinge about the state of their own household and personal views otherwise this will continue as it has over the last 10 - 15 years, for ever increasing prices, smaller portions for the same price, increase in taxes all for no benefit (all in real terms and adjusted). 
Its amazing that consumers have woken up especially over the recent retail association whinging about people buying overseas, and I hope these approaches continue in many facets of society and not just retail.

----------


## olfella

> I'm thinking of inventing the solar powered, cordless extension cord.
> Who's in?

  Sorry pal but the military in God-damm country have already got wireless power!!  They beam it down from outerspace at a special wavelenght to collectors on the ground.  Then they send it (by wire) tho where ever. :Shock:

----------


## Ricardito

> The *average* demand for electricity has been slowly growing - no surprises there. 
> However, the *peak* demand has been growth at a rate of about 50% more than the average demand. 
> The whole electricity infrastructure (the generators, the power lines, transformers, etc) need to be sized to cope with the *peak* demand - which may only occur a few percent of the time. 
> We are rapidly reaching a point where the system is struggling to cope with the *peak* demand. 
> So, what do you do?  Either build more generators, power lines, transformers (which cost $$$) to cover events that might happen a day or so every year.  Or, do you encourage consumers to use energy in non-peak times (by charging more in peak times)? 
> Either way, it is going to cost. 
> The alternative is rolling blackouts.

  Oh well the solution was taunted to be the Great Australian power grid but that bought more problems because of the drought, increasing bushfires and poorer infrastructure in general many ancilliary services are contracted mainly distribution assets. Perhaps not many co-generation projects in the pipeline and the retailers came in to complicate things using different pricing structures as well so it is not surprising we pay more for less efficient electricity services and in the mist of things  do not understand how we would have an off and peak service honestly that is a thing of the past.

----------

