# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  Is 240V light wire 1mm?? or bigger?

## wozzzzza

i want to wire up some new lights on my carport and verandah, what wire will i need? 1mm or bigger??

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## Tools

oh dear......

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## abitfishy

> i want to wire up some new lights on my carport and verandah, what wire will i need? 1mm or bigger??

  You'll need an electrician by the sounds of it.   :Doh:

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## wozzzzza

ok lets rephrase this. i want to wire up some lights, but never said i was going to do it myself.
i found someone selling wire at a garage sale and its 1mm and new and bloody cheap. i have no intention of doing this myself as i dont know how. 
what i do want to know is what wire is used fo rlight wire as i want to get this wire if goo enough to save myself a bundle when i do get an electrician to do this job for me.

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## chuth77

Wazza, you'll have to check with the electrician. The wire size depends on the length of the run, the exisiting lights on the circuit, how the cable is installed(conduit, free air, insulation), the rating of the circuit breaker, and what the other cable in the installation is. 
Best thing is to talk to your electrician. What do you call cheap? Your electrician should only charge you for what your need... not a bulk buy! 
By the way, what do you call cheap for 1mm wire?

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## wozzzzza

> By the way, what do you call cheap for 1mm wire?

  $50 for 100 metres.

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## chuth77

It's reasonably cheap, but not that cheap really.... Most electricians aren't paying much more than that! 
And do you need 100 metres of it?

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## wozzzzza

probaly round 50 metres.

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## chuth77

There should be your answer... 50m at the electricans rate, of the correct cable size, should be cheaper than 100m of possibly the wrong cable type!!!

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## wozzzzza

ok, i wont worry about it i dont think.

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## Master Splinter

Check out what they say in NZ; they use the same standards as we do but they let homeowners do their own work. (unlike here, were we don't but freely sell the product to non-tradespeople)  http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/uplo...8/ecp51v18.pdf

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## thatirwinfella

actually, they use mostly the same standards. Some clauses are NZ or Aus specific. 
And it is perhaps innapropriate to refer the original poster to a foreign code of conduct which recommends cable that could be signifcantly undersized. Given that all we know about wozzzza's lights is that they are going outside, who is to say if they are 60w incandescent, 2x36w fluoros, or a few 400w low bays that he found at the tip?  
A pdf file written for complete amatuers is hardly going to cover him for all eventualities that may arise. Whereas referring him to a sparky would. 
Just because you disagree with a law doesn't mean that you can [or encourage others to] break it.

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## Vernonv

I found this quite amusing: from Master Splinters link, the Maori names for active neutral and earth. 
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=7 width=467 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=27>*Electricity* 
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=27>*Maori* 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=26>Active (phase) 
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=26>Spiritual element, active, tapu 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=26>Neutral 
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=26>Physical element, neutral, noa 
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=48>Earth 
</TD><TD vAlign=top width="50%" height=48>Mauri or life force derived from Papatuanuku or Earth Mother 
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

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## Master Splinter

> Just because you disagree with a law doesn't mean that you can [or encourage others to] break it.

  And assuming that all the people who purchase cable, lights and power points in Bunnies (where 1mm is labelled 'Lighting', BTW) are going to get them installed by qualified electricians is perhaps the most head-in-the-sand attitude to safety possible. 
The current licensing regime is courtesy of union lobbying in the 1950's and is not supported by evidence on safety issues.  
The worldwide experience is that providing information on correct techniques decreases the injury and death rate; as Australia has one of the highest electrocution rates in the world while being alone in its stance of not allowing homeowners to undertake household electrical work suggests that it is Australia, not the rest of the world, that needs to change.  
If there are specific differences between the Australian implementation of the regs and the NZ ones, feel free to detail them and illustrate the correct Australian procedure so that all of us who are interested may understand what they are.

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## racingtadpole

Generally, and this is a generalisation here not a specific to your situation, lighting circuits are normally no smaller than 1.5mm

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## thatirwinfella

i'm choosing not to point out differences in the regs, as while i know what they are, it is not required for a non electrician to, and furthermore, it could be dangerous if they were to misinterpret or completely misunderstand the differences. We both know that some people do not mix with any diy activity, particularly something as difficult as electrical wiring. 
I don't assume that people who pruchase items from bunnings will have them installed legally, noone does. But bunnings does take the viewpoint that it advises that electrical installation is regulated and that is has the right to sell electrical items. It has been challenged for the very reason that if electricians have to install it, why can anyone purchase it, and unfortunately bunninsg won the case. From memory, it was a consumer affairs departmetn of the government rather than a safety one that made that decision, and I disagree with it 
racingtadpole, you're generalisation, while being largely accurate, is also possibly incorrect. As mentioned in earlier posts there are various factors which will influence the minimum size of cables and a sparky will know these. Not enough information has been given to correctly determine the required cable size.

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## nev25

> And assuming that all the people who purchase cable, lights and power points in Bunnies (where 1mm is labelled 'Lighting', BTW) are going to get them installed by qualified electricians is perhaps the most head-in-the-sand attitude to safety possible

  Actually I have had customers but fitting from bunnings including switches and power point and got me to install then 
There was a report from the Chief Electrical inspectors news letter last year of a salesman at bunnings in who advised a customer on how to wire in a power point.
The customer went home and attempted it and is now 6 feet under.
The saleman was prosecuted   

> The worldwide experience is that providing information on correct techniques decreases the injury and death rate; as Australia has one of the highest electrocution rates in the world while being alone in its stance of not allowing homeowners to undertake household electrical work suggests that it is Australia, not the rest of the world, that needs to change.

  Come-on that just like saying if we do away with speed limits the road death toll will be reduced

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## anawanahuanana

> Come-on that just like saying if we do away with speed limits the road death toll will be reduced

  Actually I don't think that is what he is saying. I suspect a better analogy would be to say that only licensed professionals (ie: Taxi drivers) are allowed to drive cars on the open road, as it's far too dangerous for the average man on the street to do it. Of course in reality, when presented with the correct advice and information on how to do (ie: lessons!) amazingly most people are competent enough to not kill themselves or other people. Of course there are always the exceptions, but what are we to do? Always base everything on the lowest denominator?  :Annoyed:  
This subject has been done to death before, and we've all seen that it never reaches a conclusion. As an aside, I've bought electrical components in Bunnings and had them installed by a licensed electrician.

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## chuth77

> Actually I don't think that is what he is saying. I suspect a better analogy would be to say that only licensed professionals (ie: Taxi drivers) are allowed to drive cars on the open road, as it's far too dangerous for the average man on the street to do it.

  Bad analogy really... Taxi drivers don't actually get taught how to drive... And as a rule of thumb are worse drivers than the average man on the street!!! :Doh:  
I think the big problem here in Australia is there isn't enough emphasis put on the effects of electricity and how deadly it can be. The average joe isn't informed enough about what electricity is... Pretty simple... 
I'm all for an informed user. By all means inform them of the rules and regulations and requirements and standards... By doing so most will then realise you actually need to fully understand what you are doing, rather than haphazardly changing out a powerpoint or light... An informed user also is a sense check on the licensed contractor, who unfortuneately these days seems to just regurgitate their learnings from TAFE, rather than understanding what they have been taught and applying it in varying situations... We've all seen it before, the electrician who isn't familiar with the standards, or does the dodgy install...

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## Vernonv

> Bad analogy really... Taxi drivers don't actually get taught how to drive... And as a rule of thumb are worse drivers than the average man on the street!!!

  Going by what you said maybe that IS the perfect analogy  :Shock:  ... sorry could help myself :Blush7: .

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## chrisp

> I think the big problem here in Australia is there isn't enough emphasis put on the effects of electricity and how deadly it can be. The average joe isn't informed enough about what electricity is... Pretty simple... 
> I'm all for an informed user. By all means inform them of the rules and regulations and requirements and standards... By doing so most will then realise you actually need to fully understand what you are doing, rather than haphazardly changing out a powerpoint or light... An informed user also is a sense check on the licensed contractor, who unfortuneately these days seems to just regurgitate their learnings from TAFE, rather than understanding what they have been taught and applying it in varying situations... We've all seen it before, the electrician who isn't familiar with the standards, or does the dodgy install...

  All good points but I'd like to pick up on your comment "there isn't enough emphasis put on the effects of electricity and how deadly it can be". 
I find it helpful to quantify things a bit.  We all know electricity is dangerous but just how dangerous is it in reality?  Most OHS people will use the terms like _risk_, _severity_ and _likelihood_ and evaluate the risk as _risk  = severity of consequences x likelihood of occurrence_. 
I think we all would probably agree the the _consequences_ of an electrical mishap are severe - the stuff can kill.  So what is the _likelihood_?  It is hard to measure directly, but we can use fatality figures to give us an idea.  Here is a quote from a post I made sometime ago (on a now different board) with some figures including electrical fatalities from Australia (DIY wiring not permitted) and the UK (DIY wiring permitted) .   

> I'm amazed at the level of concern and fear that questions on electrical matters raise on this forum (or is it everywhere?). I work with electricity every day and while I consider electricity to be dangerous and treat it with a great deal of respect, I often feel that the forum tends to overreact to electrical questions. I get the impression from some of the replies to electrical questions that we must be dropping like flies due to the number of electrocutions. It raises an interesting question, what is the risk of dying due to electric shock? Just how great is the risk of dying from electrical shock and how does the risk compare to other activities? Ive been search the web trying to find some useful and dependable data on this matter. This is your chance of dying from various causes:Smoking                                       *950*      deaths per million per year
> Road accident                       *82*        deaths per million per year
> Opioid related                         *31.3*     deaths per million per year
> Electrical (Australia)     *1.8*        deaths per million per year
> Asteroid impact                  *1*           death per million per year
> Airplane crash                      *1*           death per million per year
> Electrical (UK)                      *0.5       * death per million per yearI know there are members who are genuinely concerned about electrical advice, and they are free to provide, or withhold, advice as they see fit. 
> My view this that we should be able to openly discuss electrical matters and learn from the discussions. I think that the more we know on electrical matters the better we will be at understanding the dangers and the risks  and the better we will be at avoiding them.

  I'm not against standards or regulation (far from it), but I have serious concerns about the "closed shop" mentality that surrounds the electrical trades.  The licensing system is like something out of "The hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy" or "Catch 22" - it seems designed to imped outsiders from being able to gain licensing.

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## chuth77

Quick Question for you regarding the numbers...  Smoking *950* deaths per million per year
Road accident *82* deaths per million per year
Opioid related *31.3* deaths per million per year
Electrical (Australia) *1.8* deaths per million per year
Asteroid impact *1* death per million per year
Airplane crash *1* death per million per year
Electrical (UK) *0.5* death per million per yearHow were these "chances" calculated? Or are they simply rates of death for the population... 
I'm with you on the "closed shop" mentality of the electrical and plumbing trades in Australia. Given the rising labour costs, it's no suprise to see people trying the DIY options. It's just unfortunate they generally don't ask before attempting it... 
And bewarned the work attitude, ethics, and installation standards of labourers are only going to get worse at the Gen Y comes through the ranks!!

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## chrisp

> How were these "chances" calculated? Or are they simply rates of death for the population...

  They are rates of death for the population.  No calculations as such, just figures from various (usually government) sources.  It is hard to get reliable figures on "near misses"  and "close calls" but deaths seem to be universally recorded.   

> it's no suprise to see people trying the DIY options. It's just unfortunate they generally don't ask before attempting it...

  I agree.  But it is kind of understandable they don't ask as often the response is "Call an electrician" or "Your electrician will know".  I hope those who post such responses never ask a question themselves  :Wink: .

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## Pulse

I sat down and read the reports on electrical deaths from WA for a few years... most were related to working "live" or to old installations such as split steel conduit with failed insulation and earthing. Not many related to unsafe DIY. 
Knowledge should be free.. we are not talking about an explosives handbook or DIY anthrax... wiring a powerpoint safely is not hard. Removing the DIY component means people will put up with unsafe installations because they can't afford the $5000 to rewire. If we had a NZ system then it might cost you $1000 in materials and a couple of weekends... mush safer for all  
Cheers
Pulse

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## chuth77

> wiring a powerpoint safely is not hard. Removing the DIY component means people will put up with unsafe installations because they can't afford the $5000 to rewire. If we had a NZ system then it might cost you $1000 in materials and a couple of weekends... mush safer for all

  Safely is the key... My biggest concern is how can someone at home determine what is safe? Are they going to have a multimeter to test for dead? More than liekly if they are baulking at the cost of getting an electrician, they will baulk at the cost of a decent multimeter too... A lot of DIYers assume that by turning off the switch the light is safe... We all know this isn't the case. 
I'm all for knowledge amongst the DIY, but there are many, many sections to the standards which should be followed. An accountant by day, electrician by weekend can't be familiar with all the requirements! 
I certainly wouldn't want to live in a house that's been wired by a DIY. I've just had to rewire my place and it had to be done by a DIYer. twisted and taped joins in cable, cable encased in concrete, crossed circuits, underrated cables, mixed active switching, overrated circuits... Far to many DIYers don't want to sit back and research what they are about to undertake, they'd simply prefer to walk into Bunnings, have the assistant(if you can find one) tell them what they need and how they should install it. It's the same with plumbing gear... 
I guess with the new standards, one good thing to come out of it is that it's much more prescriptive. In the past it's been too open to interpretation. This 2007 edition, with more table, more figures etc will go a long way to bring some "standard" back to the installation practices... 
Another good outcome is the requirement for an RCD to cover the lighting circuits now, and that you can only have 2 subcircuits protected by each RCD... This should make DIY a lot safer :Wink 1:

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## chuth77

> They are rates of death for the population. No calculations as such, just figures from various (usually government) sources. It is hard to get reliable figures on "near misses" and "close calls" but deaths seem to be universally recorded. 
> I agree. But it is kind of understandable they don't ask as often the response is "Call an electrician" or "Your electrician will know". I hope those who post such responses never ask a question themselves .

  It'd be interesting to see a percentage or "chance" calculation. I supsect that DIY electricians would be much higher on the list for those that attempt it! 
You have no idea how many of my work collegues (I'm in an office mostly) have asked me about wiring questions. I'll always talk them through what should be done by the electrician, and qualify this by saying "talk to your electrician"... An informed user is much less likely to get ripped off... In this day were everyone is tryign to save money it's undertstandable people are trying to do as much as they can themselves... 
I love this forum, but I'm dead against those in this forum that simply reply with "check with your electrician" or "check the standard"... For the most part people will, but they want to be informed, they don't want to look like an idiot and know nothing about what is required, and more importantly what is achievable... Most people plan their jobs, and of course the electrician is one part of the planning...

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## spruik

Long time ago I had a year of electrical engineering which incuded installing of electrical wiring etc. but choose another road in life. What I learned then is still remembered and extremely useful. 
I do the occasional rewiring or addition in my own home (adding powerpoints or lights) and I have to say that my work is better than much of what I have come across, done by presumably licensed blokes, especially the house I live in now. 
The toilet light/fan switch needed servicing due to a loose contact (and a structural modification) but the wires couldn't be pulled out more than 2 cm (fitted in the inside door frame and looped through a hole in a stud doing a 180 degree turn) with no hope of rejoining the offending wire to the switch, so off came the plasterboard and I am now mounting it on the outside wall (where it should be). Also need to extend the wires. 
I notice that generally cables have lighter/thinner insulation on them than used in older installations. Have we lowered the safety standards, or is this what hardware stores only sell?

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## chuth77

My opinions exactly... So many sparkies are trying to save 20c by not including a service loop in a wall.. They should be made to try and reterminate the cable years down the track!!! 
The cable manufacturing standard changed in 2006. AS5000.2 now reflects the better insulation properties of the PVC and hence the insulation thickness was reduced. Well spotted... I know a few elecs who got caught out, and installed the new 2.5mm as lighting cable because the outer looked like 1.5... They only ran off one drum, but at least they then asked the question!!

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## pharmaboy2

> Safely is the key... My biggest concern is how can someone at home determine what is safe? Are they going to have a multimeter to test for dead? More than liekly if they are baulking at the cost of getting an electrician, they will baulk at the cost of a decent multimeter too... A lot of DIYers assume that by turning off the switch the light is safe... We all know this isn't the case. 
> I'm all for knowledge amongst the DIY, but there are many, many sections to the standards which should be followed. An accountant by day, electrician by weekend can't be familiar with all the requirements!

  hi, if DIYers consider it safe just to turn off the switch, then they are suffering from stupidity and a total lack of info.  rule number one in any book from o/s  or guide on the internet, is turn off the power, rule number 2 is if you are going to touch a cable do so first with a finger or hand flick, before you go grabbing a pair of uninsulated pliers with a grip then grabbing the cable (this will tend to kill you, if even though you've done point 1, something is drastically wrong) 
The std's dont really help, the more complicated they get, the less people read them. My latest visit from an electrician to replace  a meter box resulted in him assuring me he had to replace the box to mains extension (overhead wire) - yeah right!  its common for them to think they must renew everything when replacing a box.  if the professionals dont know what they are doing, then home owners need full access to the stds to keep them honest - or at least correct.

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## spruik

Thanks Chuth for clearing that up. 
Still, I find that the new insulation is easier cut through (unless the PVC just got harder over time). If I had the choice I would use the older stuff. 
In view of the fact that those cables could run anywhere within walls, cutting through the plaster always carries come risk.

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## chuth77

> hi, if DIYers consider it safe just to turn off the switch, then they are suffering from stupidity and a total lack of info. rule number one in any book from o/s or guide on the internet, is turn off the power, rule number 2 is if you are going to touch a cable do so first with a finger or hand flick, before you go grabbing a pair of uninsulated pliers with a grip then grabbing the cable (this will tend to kill you, if even though you've done point 1, something is drastically wrong) 
> The std's dont really help, the more complicated they get, the less people read them. My latest visit from an electrician to replace a meter box resulted in him assuring me he had to replace the box to mains extension (overhead wire) - yeah right! its common for them to think they must renew everything when replacing a box. if the professionals dont know what they are doing, then home owners need full access to the stds to keep them honest - or at least correct.

  What a crock of %^&#... touch a cable with a finger or hand flick...  :No: I'm sorry but what sort of d$%khead thinks that is safe... You've just confirmed why DIYers shouldn't be doing electrical work!  
And you've missed the point on turning off the power... Many DIYers think by turning off the switch you've turned off the power to the light... How do you confirm the power is off... By testing with a multimeter.. Testing the multimeter on a known source, turn off the power, test the multimeter on the supposed dead circuit, then test the multimeter on a known source again.. It's the only foolproof way to "TEST FOR DEAD"... and be one hundred percent certain... 
How do you know the incoming cable didn't require replacement? What type of cable is the old stuff? Were you upgrading the main circuit breaker? And yes in Qld most of the time an upgrade to the mains in required... 
Everyone is Australia has access to the Standards. They don't limit access to just electricians. Yes you have to pay for them...

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## Vernonv

Chuth77, what you describe is spot on, however when ever I work on anything electrical (only unplugged appliances of course :Wink 1: ) I always test with a multimeter as you described, but I still do the screw driver short test before I actually touch it.  
Even with a multimeter there is STILL no way to be 100% sure that it is dead eg. what if you are measuring between a live wire and a disconnected/broken neutral or the terminals are covered in grime and you don't get a good contact??? 
But then again, what do I know, I'm only a lowly DIY'er. :Cry: ... :Biggrin:

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## chuth77

Even more the reason why only a licensed electrician should be doing the work!!! :2thumbsup:

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## pharmaboy2

> What a crock of %^&#... touch a cable with a finger or hand flick... I'm sorry but what sort of d$%khead thinks that is safe... You've just confirmed why DIYers shouldn't be doing electrical work!  
> And you've missed the point on turning off the power... Many DIYers think by turning off the switch you've turned off the power to the light... How do you confirm the power is off... By testing with a multimeter.. Testing the multimeter on a known source, turn off the power, test the multimeter on the supposed dead circuit, then test the multimeter on a known source again.. It's the only foolproof way to "TEST FOR DEAD"... and be one hundred percent certain... 
> How do you know the incoming cable didn't require replacement? What type of cable is the old stuff? Were you upgrading the main circuit breaker? And yes in Qld most of the time an upgrade to the mains in required... 
> Everyone is Australia has access to the Standards. They don't limit access to just electricians. Yes you have to pay for them...

  LOL.  I have seen electrciians test for live, then grab the cable in their fist - let me assure you, if that cable is live and you have made a good grip, you will not be able to release it, and it will almost certainly kill you sometimes in the next minute.  a millisecond of current, while it hurts will not kill you - every electrician I have ever spoken to, has had shocks, none i have spoken to got it with a good grip on something live (luckily for them) - most have had multiples. 
My hand test is done after other tests - which in my case is a proximity tester, test live, test dead, and after I have switched the mains off- v I have SFA chance of getting a jolt, but hell, better that than dead. 
the cable is circa 1984 16mm^2 mains - its correct for what 100amps, and the reason i know is that a relative is the local inspector, who I asked for requirments before i got a quote. It is he who tells me how badly things are done and how few electricians know their actual requrements when renewing - if in doubt they renew all, which of course costs the householder money not them.  
Ultimately, we are still left with the most regulated western country with the most restrictive practices for householders having the worst electrocution rate.  When something aint working, its time to rethink, in Australias case, perhaps we should be looking to o/s for leadership on electrical safety.

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## spruik

Education is the key. If understanding is limited, get some facts. Even a few compulsory hours at school on this subject should be of big help later in life. We remember what we learn young. 
On multimeters, they don't necessarily show if a wire is live (in relation to earth - what really matters), unless it's one of extremely high impedance - not the type you buy in a hardware shop or Dick Smith. I believe there are better devices like a pen that lights up if a charge is detected. Safe and reliable. I have seen them being used by electronic technicians, wanting to make sure a chassis is not live. 
Even with the mains off, wires should be treated with great respect as wiring could be faulty and the earth line not properly earthed.. Always use insulated tools, always stand on a very dry surface. 
I am not an electrician, but had plenty to do with electronics.

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## thatirwinfella

It's hardly fair to badmouth sparkies when your source of regs is hardly doing his job if he knows you do your own work. And if he is like any australian male, any story he tells can be taken as 50% BS and 10%hyperbole. His stories would be the worst examples intending to impress or shock you. I do the same, and expect most people on here would. 
the only reason our system doesn't work is because there aren't enough sparkies where they are needed. The smart ones go to the mines or overseas where their standard of work is appreciated and they get paid the big bucks. People here are either too impatient to wait for a sparky or too cheap to pay for the ones who show up. It's hardly fair to blame the industry when the government tok the stance of closing technical schools which reduced the number of school leavers going into trades. The system would work if there were more sparkies.

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## chrisp

> Ultimately, we are still left with the most regulated western country with the most restrictive practices for householders having the worst electrocution rate.  When something aint working, its time to rethink, in Australias case, perhaps we should be looking to o/s for leadership on electrical safety.

  We also seem to have one of the most restrictive training and licensing systems.  I don't mind the regulations _per se_, but the incredibly restrictive licensing system seems to be over the top and unnecessary.  At present the only way to obtain a wiring license in Victoria is effectively by doing a Victorian apprenticeship.  It will be interesting to see how the trade fares with the younger generation who like to change careers, not just jobs, frequently. 
I think the training and licensing system is long overdue for review.

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## thatirwinfella

> On multimeters, they don't necessarily show if a wire is live (in relation to earth - what really matters), unless it's one of extremely high impedance - not the type you buy in a hardware shop or Dick Smith. I believe there are better devices like a pen that lights up if a charge is detected. Safe and reliable. I have seen them being used by electronic technicians, wanting to make sure a chassis is not live.

  unfortunately, the testers you described aren't reliable enough. Contact testers are outright dangerous and noone working on mains voltage should use them. This is due to actually having a return path through the human body, with voltage being limited only by a resistor. If the resistor was to be shorted for whatever reason, then full voltage will be apllied to the person testing. 
Non contact testors can also be unreliable, and a user needs to be familiar with it's limitations to gain an accurate result. Shielded cables will not give a voltage indicator, neither will orange circ. Rubbing the tester on fabric will produce a voltage. Unreliable. 
IMO a cheap digital from jaycar would give a better result than a pen type tester, but you still need to know how to use it properly, something which many people will not or cannot do.

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## thatirwinfella

> We also seem to have one of the most restrictive training and licensing systems. I don't mind the regulations _per se_, but the incredibly restrictive licensing system seems to be over the top and unnecessary. At present the only way to obtain a wiring license in Victoria is effectively by doing a Victorian apprenticeship. It will be interesting to see how the trade fares with the younger generation who like to change careers, not just jobs, frequently. 
> I think the training and licensing system is long overdue for review.

  
you're only peeved because you can't get a licence  :Biggrin:  
i think that the standards are acceptable, and could actually be improved further. Perhaps licencing does need reviewing, but while people like yourselves [from memory you have an engineering background] would/should have the knowledge to understand and apply the regs, the average better homes and gardens viewer wouldn't.  
On a similar note, while engineers should have the knowledge to do the work, some wouldn't have the skills. A workmate went to a training course where the attendees were a mixture of trade and engineers. When the training started doing prac work, my workmate was shocked at how appaling some of the work by the engineers was. Although, this may not be indicative of every engineer.

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## chuth77

> On a similar note, while engineers should have the knowledge to do the work, some wouldn't have the skills. A workmate went to a training course where the attendees were a mixture of trade and engineers. When the training started doing prac work, my workmate was shocked at how appaling some of the work by the engineers was. Although, this may not be indicative of every engineer.

  Oh yeah... And that's a huge problem. How can an Engineer design something they can't pervieveably install themselves...   

> The smart ones go to the mines or overseas where their standard of work is appreciated and they get paid the big bucks. .

  You have gotta be kidding me on that... Don't get mistaken... They go for the big bucks, the smart ones are few and far between... I've seen worse installation practices and standards of workmanship in this environment.. The guys simply don't care because if they got the sack from one job, they simply walk into another...

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## pharmaboy2

> It's hardly fair to badmouth sparkies when your source of regs is hardly doing his job if he knows you do your own work. And if he is like any australian male, any story he tells can be taken as 50% BS and 10%hyperbole. His stories would be the worst examples intending to impress or shock you. I do the same, and expect most people on here would. 
> the only reason our system doesn't work is because there aren't enough sparkies where they are needed.

  ah well, he could report me, but he 's an australian, so he doesnt - sort of like dobbing in ya best mate for speeding - you just dont if you want to keep friends and family friends and family.   :Wink: .  But no, the stories arent drunken ramblings big noting himself, though there seems to be 2 types of experiences - overdoing the job, particularly in renewal,s, and not doing a correct job, but not needing a defect - ie you ring them and ask for the paperwork and remarkably when you return everythings up to std - overnight miracle so to speak  LOL 
As it is I dont think all electrcians are crap, or even a decent minority , its just a reaction to the oft repeated response on forums like "get an electrician" to every question posed.  If electricians were infallible, then maybe they could be so high and mighty, but most dont seem to see them as better or worse than any other tradesman.  One has to wonder if a secret squirrel attitude to their" secrets" makes for better outcomes or worse ones.  At first glance the outcome of electrocutions seems very bad indeed if that is a major measure, and it maybe that more electricans would reduice the unlicensed work going on, but whether that would help the elctrocution rate is speculative. 
I have heard that it is difficult getting an electrican in sydney, so just maybe if householders were legaly able to replace same with same, and information and guidance was available, then that would free up electricians to do the work that really does need to be done, like meter box replacements ( ! ),  new runs, replace light s for people who dont feel competent etc.  essentially follow either the UK or NZ model  - NZ would probably make the most sense I'm guessing. 
If the above came true, then its quite logical that safety would increase, as difficult jobs and the less competent would easily get badly needed professional help, and with a little luck the truly incompetent electricians  would go out of business (maybe get a job at bunnings  ;D   )

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## spruik

> ... and with a little luck the truly incompetent electricians would go out of business (maybe get a job at bunnings ;D )

  Funny you should say that. Looking for some "plumbing related stuff"at Bunnings a staff member asked if he could help me. Explaining what I was looking for (to cut and terminate a disused copper water pipe), he said "you are obviously not a plumber" in a tone of voice that made me feel like walking out. I replied "No, otherwise I wouldn't be looking here... "  :Smilie:  He then suggested what I should use - but which wouldn't do the job at all. 
Some months ago I needed a 1" gray conduit elbow (used to go around a wall corner or ceiling). Not seeing any, I asked one of the guys (said to be an electrician) and responded he had never seen any and they don't exist. "But I bought some here only a while ago" I explained. Impossible was his reply. A few weeks later I did buy one from another Bunnings store. 
I thought to myself "no wonder some guys land themselves at Bunnings". No offense meant to anyone!!!  :Smilie:

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## mj211

> If electricians were infallible, then maybe they could be so high and mighty, but most dont seem to see them as better or worse than any other tradesman.  One has to wonder if a secret squirrel attitude to their" secrets" makes for better outcomes or worse ones.  At first glance the outcome of electrocutions seems very bad indeed if that is a major measure, and it maybe that more electricans would reduice the unlicensed work going on, but whether that would help the elctrocution rate is speculative. 
> If the above came true, then its quite logical that safety would increase, as difficult jobs and the less competent would easily get badly needed professional help, and with a little luck the truly incompetent electricians  would go out of business (maybe get a job at bunnings  ;D   )

  I don't think sparkies have a secret squirrel attitude, but i think that trying to explain something in 10 words or less is extremely difficult. I don't think people realise how much work can go behind connecting red to red.  
I don't see how allowing people to do their own wiring could make things safer. Can you explain that to me?

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## chrisp

> you're only peeved because you can't get a licence

  Yep, you're absolutely right on that one, I think we understand each other quite well  :Smilie:  
But can you sort of understand why I get peeved?  Yep, I've got any electrical engineering degree and I do know my way around a circuit.  Don't you think it is strange that I can't get any exemptions to an apprenticeship?  My conversations with then OCEI are truly something that wouldn't be amiss on "Yes, Minister".  I'd be happy to do any examinations required - theory and practical.  I'd be happy to do supervised work for a reasonable period, but how the regulations are at present the only way is via a formal indenture.  I appreciate that that the term "closed shop" grates somewhat, but I do believe the regulations are there to protect the industry, not the public - and that's what truly peeves me.   

> On a similar note, while engineers should have the knowledge to do the work, some wouldn't have the skills. A workmate went to a training course where the attendees were a mixture of trade and engineers. When the training started doing prac work, my workmate was shocked at how appaling some of the work by the engineers was. Although, this may not be indicative of every engineer.

  I had to smile when I read the above  :Biggrin:     I could also recount true stories about dangerous and poor work practices I seem done by licensed electricians?  I really don't think we need to go there  :Wink:   
I accept that there are people who don't know one end of a screwdriver from another and that some of them are engineers.  I'm not so much arguing exemptions from licensing examination (theory or practical), but rather access to licensing  examination and training without the need of doing the apprenticeship. 
Here some questions for you:    If I could pass the theory part of the exam, would you feel confident that I knew what I was doing with regards to the theoretical work?With regard to the practical work, if I could pass the practical examinations, would you feel confident I knew what I was doing with regard to the practical work?Do you think there needs to be some practical experience component as well or is the practical exam sufficiently comprehensive to cover the essentials?Also, out of interest, do you think it would be reasonable to have some form of limited license where a home owner can do some of their own electrical work, say, something like the NZ system?  Maybe, as a prerequisite for the limited license, there could be a TAFE course to cover the required knowledge - similar to a disconnect-reconnect course with an additional wiring component.
I'd be interested to hear your responses, and those of other electricians, so I can better understand the situation from an electrician's perspective. 
Chris

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## nev25

> Yep, you're absolutely right on that one, I think we understand each other quite well

  
Theres no reason why you cannot do a 4 year apprenticeship like the rest of us had to.

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## thatirwinfella

chrisp, to answer your questions; 
1; yes. if you hold the degree and pass the exam, that is enough to say you should have a capable theoritcal understanding. 
2; yes and no. While passing the prac exam may show an understanding of the regs and essential understanding of practical aspects [particularly if you can complete the exam to full standard, which itself is quite difficult] there are some practical aspects that are only taught through experience. Situations may arise where someone in your situation may have no idea, or an incorrect idea of how to go about a task. 
3; yes, definately. it's the easiest way to learn workmanship and the appropriate standards of work. Not just the regulations, but the difference between a good and an awful job. 
4; as we both know, this licence class already exists, at least in victoria. It may be somewhat restricted, and difficult to achieve, but there is possibly some merit in having a more open, yet still restricted homeowner. Obviously some people should never have made it to adulthood, yet be owning a home and contemplating electrical work upon it, so we need to weed these out. Perhaps an intensive domestic training course [one week/40 hours at tafe, focussing on regs and basic installation techniques, limited to powerpoints and lighting] and a requirement that all work is inspected.  
@chuth77 these people are supposed to recognise a quality job yet some are unable to make a passable attempt themselves.  
And of course they go for the big bucks, but they get paid the big bucks for a reason. They wouldn't get the job if their work wasn't up to scratch. I've seen english work that is appaling

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## pharmaboy2

> I don't think sparkies have a secret squirrel attitude, but i think that trying to explain something in 10 words or less is extremely difficult. I don't think people realise how much work can go behind connecting red to red.  
> I don't see how allowing people to do their own wiring could make things safer. Can you explain that to me?

  The secret squirrel point is more aimed at the sparkies on the net (how many are actually sparkies i m not sure though), who answer every electrical related question with a smart.... "call an electrician".  makes me think instantly of my mother "if you cant say anything nice then dont say anything at all". 
Real existing people in the electrical industry I know, are far more relaxed about giving appropriate advice.  So maybe you are right, it is a 10 word answer problem - ie you nmeed to ask 5 questions to get enough info to make the correct response - not exactly a situation conducive on a forum.  However I have read lots of posts in the past where very detailed information is provided and a particualr question asked, and you still get "get an electrician out" -  
As to how it would make things safer, right now, there is no way that all power points , switches and light fittings been sold are all been done by licensed people - simply standing and watching the amount of gear going oiut the door at bunnings or beacon can tell you that.  thus no matter how perfect a world we think we live in: it is not - large amounts of householders are replacing lights, replacing switches, putting in dimmers etc etc etc.  Given that its happening, its also the case that they find it difficult to get information such as, using voltage  proximity device, been informed that occasionaly lights can be switched neutral, how a 3 way switch is wired, how to ,make yourself safe, the importance of securing the meter box if you are working on power within the building, making sure you always cut the power from the meter box.  there must be a few other good bits of advice as well that atm cant be accessed liek in other western countries. 
It is happening, it will continue to happen, more information will simply make whats already been done safer and better, the mushroom principle doesnt help safety at all.  The ooh its bad, it can kill you, better get an electrician to change that broken 2 way switch for $120, is no better than the local sunday school trying to scare the crap out of kids with hell and satan so they stay in the fold from fear???? 
The biggest problem with the response above is it treats adults like children, and they go off do it anyway, but they missed out on the opportunity to learn something either technical or safety related.

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## Yonnee

> Theres no reason why you cannot do a 4 year apprenticeship like the rest of us had to.

  Cool!!
Nev, you're an electrician, can I be your apprentice. I have a drivers licence and a car... 
Oh, and a mortgage, 2 kids to clothe and feed, 3 pets and a wife who _loves_ shopping. To make ends meet, I'll need to start on $1000.00 per week.  
I'm a mechanic by trade, imagine the reaction if the MTAA and the Automobile Chamber of Commerce influenced the government to make it against the law for un-qualified people to work on their own cars. I wouldn't have had to leave the industry chasing a bigger pay packet.  
Maybe the higher electrocution rate could be contributed by the fact that those that want to do it themselves and would be quite capable given the correct information, rarely ask for help for fear of pursecution and ridicule.
And how many of those electrocuted were _actually_ qualified people in the first place? Probably more than you think.

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## nev25

> Cool!!
> Nev, you're an electrician, can I be your apprentice. I have a drivers licence and a car... 
> Oh, and a mortgage, 2 kids to clothe and feed, 3 pets and a wife who _loves_ shopping. To make ends meet, I'll need to start on $1000.00 per week.

  So you want your cake and eat it too 
Hey Im not the enemy here
Dont shoot the messenger 
Im just telling you how it is 
The fact of the matter is an electrician is not allowed by law to give advice on how to do
Only an electrician with an Inspectors ticket is 
Welcome to the real world 
I don't write the regs I just obey them

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## chrisp

> The fact of the matter is an electrician is not allowed by law to give advice on how to do
> Only an electrician with an Inspectors ticket is

  Nev, 
Do you have a copy of this particular law, or can you provide a link to the regulation on the web? 
I'd be curious to understand the reason and intent of this particular law - it seems very strange to me. 
Chris

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## nev25

> Nev, 
> Do you have a copy of this particular law, or can you provide a link to the regulation on the web? 
> I'd be curious to understand the reason and intent of this particular law - it seems very strange to me. 
> Chris

  No I don't it was written in ESV (Chief electrical inspectors office) newsletter many months ago.
Ring ESV and ask them 
It has a lot to do with insurance and public liability and public imdemity 
Might I also state its now illegal for anyone to do any electrical wiring without doing a 3 month electrical induction course and really sucks 
I asked an inspector If I was allowed to get my son to help me on a weekend to pull cables and the answer was NO he must do an electrical induction course and be cover by my insurance
That sux

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## Vernonv

How do you teach apprentices, if you can't tell them how to do something :Doh: . 
Would explain why there are some (notice I only said "some") pretty dodgy sprakies out there. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## nev25

> How do you teach apprentices, if you can't tell them how to do something. 
> Would explain why there are some (notice I only said "some") pretty dodgy sprakies out there.

  
As I have stated 
Must do a 3 month induction

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## thatirwinfella

vernonv, part of the current apprenticeship actually involves a compulsary prac where the apprentice needs to teach skills to another. 
if you were referring to Nev's post, when under the supervision of an electrician, an apprentice is deemed to be licenced.

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## chrisp

> No I don't it was written in ESV (Chief electrical inspectors office) newsletter many months ago.
> Ring ESV and ask them 
> It has a lot to do with insurance and public liability and public imdemity

  Nev, 
I've had a look through the ESV site.  I haven't found anything about it being illegal to give advice.  It sounds a very strange law indeed.  Perhaps you can have a look for your newsletter and find out if it actually a law or a guideline so I can work out which section this law might be in? 
Insurance?  Ah, now that could be another matter - lots of things hard to insure but that doesn't necessarily make them illegal - just inadvisable (e.g. parachuting). 
Still, I find it hard to see how anyone could be prosecuted for providing the correct factual information?

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## nev25

> Nev, 
> I've had a look through the ESV site. I haven't found anything about it being illegal to give advice. It sounds a very strange law indeed. Perhaps you can have a look for your newsletter and find out if it actually a law or a guideline so I can work out which section this law might be in? 
> Insurance? Ah, now that could be another matter - lots of things hard to insure but that doesn't necessarily make them illegal - just inadvisable (e.g. parachuting). 
> Still, I find it hard to see how anyone could be prosecuted for providing the correct factual information?

  Ring them

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## Yonnee

> So you want your cake and eat it too

  No, but it seems the electrical industry does.   

> Hey Im not the enemy here
> Dont shoot the messenger

  No-one's shooting at you, you just stated that it was as easy as getting an apprenticeship. Sure, as a 17 year old living at home paying $50 a week board I could survive on 1st year wages. And as this is the only way to gain any sort of qualification to perform even the most basic of electrical work, how is your industry going to survive when many school leavers are being lured by 6 figure IT jobs with only 3 months training? It'll mean the electricians that _are_ around will be even harder to employ and even more expensive. 
What would be wrong with a long term night school course that then allowed recipients to remove/replace light switches, GPO's, light fittings, etc.? Maybe even go as far as allowing you to touch everything after, but not including the meter box.

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## Terrian

> Safely is the key... My biggest concern is how can someone at home determine what is safe?

  mains switched off is always a good start.   

> Are they going to have a multimeter to test for dead?

  some of us do  :Smilie:    

> I certainly wouldn't want to live in a house that's been wired by a DIY. I've just had to rewire my place and it had to be done by a DIYer. twisted and taped joins in cable, cable encased in concrete, crossed circuits, underrated cables, mixed active switching, overrated circuits...

  That is not limited to DIY, my house was not wired up all that good, original power points with active / nuetral back to front, 1 had all 3 wires wrong. Did I fix it all, damn right I did (called a mate who is a sparky, he spent about 4 hours drinking my coffee and checking and redoing power points), could I have done the same work, I feel confident that I could have, but all it cost me was cups of coffee for my mate to do the job (he owed me a favour anyways  :Smilie:

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## chrisp

> Ring them

  Nev, 
With respect, I'm not the one claiming it's against the law for an electrician to give electrical advice.   
I don't think the onus is on me to "ring them" and check. 
It seems to me that you are confident enough that your information is correct that you posted it on a public forum.  All I'm requesting is that you substantiate the claim and provide some primary reference.  Perhaps _you_ could ring them and check what was actually stated in the newsletter and get them to point out the appropriate act?  Maybe it was "advice" rather than "the law"?

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## Pinex

Boy,what a discussion this thread has encouraged and for my two bobs worth,if sparkies werent inclined to indirectly turn domestic jobs down (by quoting deliberately high prices) because they couldnt be bothered or not worth their will.I certainly know around here anyway(Ilive in the bush) it is the case and with little competition,they charge like wounded bulls,no wonder people attempt there own work. Besides,there is plenty of info. I guess out there to assist people who want to correctly do the job and safely. Martin

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## nev25

> Nev, 
> With respect, I'm not the one claiming it's against the law for an electrician to give electrical advice.  
> I don't think the onus is on me to "ring them" and check. 
> It seems to me that you are confident enough that your information is correct that you posted it on a public forum. All I'm requesting is that you substantiate the claim and provide some primary reference. Perhaps _you_ could ring them and check what was actually stated in the newsletter and get them to point out the appropriate act? Maybe it was "advice" rather than "the law"?

  Mate if a sparkie was to tell you how to wire up a power point and you didn't it wrong and killed yourself 
wouldn't your family and insurance company be looking for someone to prosecute. 
Of course they would
That being the case doesn't that make giving advice Illegal?? 
Pinex 
It never ceases to amuse me why people think electricians charge to much
Ive worked on a lot of jobs with kitchen/cabinet makers (Some  unqualified) and Plumbers.
The cabinet maker screws 5 pieces of wood together and screws it to the wall and puts a fancy door on it and charges a fortune
The plumber runs a bit of polypipe and maybe a bit of copper and mounts taps etc.and charges  a small fortune.
Both have limited insurance (If any)
The home owner pays them no questions asked
The Electrician comes along and does what  he has to do 
Charges an hourly rate less that a plumber.
Has to have a min of $5M public liability 
Has to make sure the installation is safe before he leaves (sometimes this can take a hour or so)'
Then has to provide a certificate of electrical safety 
and the home owner complains  about the cost??

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## chuth77

> And of course they go for the big bucks, but they get paid the big bucks for a reason. They wouldn't get the job if their work wasn't up to scratch. I've seen english work that is appaling

  You just don't get it... They don't get paid the big buck because of their work... None of the guys out there do... They get paid the big bucks because no-one wants to work out there for an ordinary wage. They all want part of the profit... Don't kid yourself that they are the best of the best...

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## Pinex

All tradies are the same, not just electricians,its just sparkies are what we are talking about here.Which is probably why this forum is so popular,people want to have a go because tradesman  charge too much for the exact reason you stated in your post,big bucks for little return and yes provide a certificate of safety again at the customers expense.You would expect the job done right anywaywith out the proof of safety,seen as you have employed a qualifyied electrician in the fist place,revenue raising by someone there isn't it. Martin

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## thatirwinfella

> You just don't get it... They don't get paid the big buck because of their work... None of the guys out there do... They get paid the big bucks because no-one wants to work out there for an ordinary wage. They all want part of the profit... Don't kid yourself that they are the best of the best...

  try reading the full post again. it does also mention overseas. Why would they be encouraged to go overseas and enticed with the big bucks if their standard of work wasn't appreciated?  
Don't kid yourself about the standards of work that exist because you've come across a few bad ones.

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## davey1

The other thing with sparkies is that they're risking their life with almost every job they do.  Cabinet makers & plumbers are at less risk.  Its probably been covered but I couldn't be fagged reading 5 pages  :Biggrin:

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## chuth77

> The other thing with sparkies is that they're risking their life with almost every job they do.

  God I hope your employer is not putting your life at risk with almost every job... But please enlighten me as to how sparkies are putting their lives at risk almost every job?

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## chrisp

> But please enlighten me as to how sparkies are putting their lives at risk almost every job?

  It could be their driving  :Smilie:  They often have to drive to different jobs  :Biggrin:   (oops, so do cabinetmakers and plumbers).

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## watson

And Dentists!!

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## nev25

> But please enlighten me as to how sparkiest are putting their lives at risk almost every job?

  
Put it this way
If a cabinetmaker F@@@S up it might not be square 
If a Plumber F@@@S up you might get a wet floor or a gas leak that you would smell
If an Electrican F@@@S up someone gets injured or a house burns down.

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## chuth77

> Put it this way
> If a cabinetmaker F@@@S up it might not be square 
> If a Plumber F@@@S up you might get a wet floor or a gas leak that you would smell
> If an Electrican F@@@S up someone gets injured or a house burns down.

  
I get that, I'm asking why he thinks an Electrician puts his own life at risk? 
And is a gas leak not deadly?

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## thatirwinfella

i think the statement was probably overexaggerated, but there is certainly more risk for a sparkie than many other professions. Aside from the obvious; falls from ladders/roofs, hand injuries [while not life threatening, they still hurt] a sparky relies more than a diyer on his meter being in good condition. While the meter itself my be in good condition, the leads may be damaged but in a barely noticable way. It would be possible for a shock to happen by contact with the damaged portion of the test leads. The situation is pushing it a bit though... 
But in many older houses with fuses, or any larger sites with large circuit breakers to rack out, arc flashes can happen quite easily when removing or replacing these items. In high voltage areas, outside the domain of many sparkies, high capacity faults are common, unpredictable and very dangerous. There is no way of knowing if the board you are standing next to while working on another is going to blowup in five minutes or five years. And it happens. A kitchen cupboard won't however.

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## thatirwinfella

> I get that, I'm asking why he thinks an Electrician puts his own life at risk? 
> And is a gas leak not deadly?

  potentially yes, very. But a gas leak is more easy to detect by smell and very occassionaly visually than an electrical fault.

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## anawanahuanana

> Mate if a sparkie was to tell you how to wire up a power point and you didn't it wrong and killed yourself 
> wouldn't your family and insurance company be looking for someone to prosecute. 
> Of course they would
> That being the case doesn't that make giving advice Illegal??

  I'm not really sure if this is the case or not. If someone suggested to me that I could get somewhere quicker by driving at 200kph and I was killed in the subsequent crash, would the person giving advice be responsible, or would I? If someone tells me to do something I know to be illegal and I still do it, who is the guilty party? Perhaps that would be a good defence in court? "I know I broke the law your honour, but he told me to". "Well in that case son, you're free to go". I think not...... :Doh:

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## nev25

> I'm not really sure if this is the case or not. If someone suggested to me that I could get somewhere quicker by driving at 200kph and I was killed in the subsequent crash, would the person giving advice be responsible, or would I? If someone tells me to do something I know to be illegal and I still do it, who is the guilty party? Perhaps that would be a good defence in court? "I know I broke the law your honour, but he told me to". "Well in that case son, you're free to go". I think not......

  Gee now we are splitting hairs aren't we 
There is a huge difference between telling someone to do something and telling them how to do it. 
A good example is in road law
If you are broken down on the road and wave wave another motorist to pass and it wasn't safe for them to pass like an oncoming car you are held responsible 
(If you dint believe that one go talk to a cop)   

> I get that, I'm asking why he thinks an Electrician puts his own life at risk? 
> And is a gas leak not deadly?

  
An electrician don't necessary put his own life at risk he has to spend thousands on the necessary safety gear and equipment that the DIY wouldn't bother with
He however may put (If not done correctly)other lives at risk 
My point is you can smell Gas you cannot smell electricity!

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## chuth77

> An electrician don't necessary put his own life at risk he has to spend thousands on the necessary safety gear and equipment that the DIY wouldn't bother with
> He however may put (If not done correctly)other lives at risk 
> My point is you can smell Gas you cannot smell electricity!

  I'm in agreeance Nev. My point was that no electrician should be putting their life at risk doing their job. That is against the law, and prosecutable under the OH&S Act... 
I'm trying to understand Davey1's statement of "The other thing with sparkies is that they're risking their life with almost every job they do" 
This just shouldn''t be the case if the regulations and standards are followed.. I just hope his employer isn't making him put his life at risk!

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