# Forum Home Renovation Decking  Deck Construction

## adam.baxter

Guys, 
I have a question, I am in the process of building a 6x6 Deck in Brisbane. 
I cut, welded and got the posts hot dipped. I am supporting the bearers on form working frames. What I have noticed is that none of the timbers are exactly what I ordered. i.e. ordered 250x75 bearers but they are more between 240-245x75. How does one go about making this level? I can either make the tops of all the posts at the same height and plane off the tops of the bearers to suit afterwards or have the posts at slightly different heights to make up for the uneven heights of the bearers. Also the joists are not perfect, I assume this is normal for rough sawn. 
Regards, 
Adam Baxter

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## r3nov8or

I would set the posts at the same level and check out and/or pack the under side of the bearers over each post to level the tops. Do the same with the joists where they meet the bearers, Then using a straight edge across the joist surface you may find some need some planing in places.

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## barney118

It doesnt look like you have the footing pads down? Are you planning on building the deck then setting the pad heights, then adjust the base of the concrete.

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## adam.baxter

Going to hang the posts from the bearers then fill holes with concrete.

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## ringtail

r3nov8or is on it. Keep the tops of everything at the same height. Easy way to check for flatness is to use string lines and a gauge block. Cut 3 blocks of timber out of a pine stud. Put 1 under each end of the stringline        (which runs across the joists) and use the third as a gauge to where you need to plane or pack. You will probably find the shrinkage is worse on the ends of the timber as the moisture leaves the endgrain. Needless to say, seal the ends of bearers and joists with bitumen or similiar ASAP, and all checkouts of course

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## stevoh741

while your at it with the bitumen paint, hit the bottom of the gal posts before they are encased in concrete. Ideal would have been to use hold down bolts which you can therefore adjust the height of the posts (within reason) to suit the bearers. Your way is fine to just a bit more work IMO. Keep the pics coming, love a good deck build.

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## intertd6

> Guys, 
> I have a question, I am in the process of building a 6x6 Deck in Brisbane. 
> I cut, welded and got the posts hot dipped. I am supporting the bearers on form working frames. What I have noticed is that none of the timbers are exactly what I ordered. i.e. ordered 250x75 bearers but they are more between 240-245x75. How does one go about making this level? I can either make the tops of all the posts at the same height and plane off the tops of the bearers to suit afterwards or have the posts at slightly different heights to make up for the uneven heights of the bearers. Also the joists are not perfect, I assume this is normal for rough sawn. 
> Regards, 
> Adam Baxter

  The timber should be 0mm to + 3mm tolerance, anything under is not adequate for the design, you could just hang the posts off the bearers , put on the joists  & decking , then level the whole show off the top surface with the screw jacks on the formwork frames, concreting under the column base plates casting in HD bolts whatever the height. Turn the frames diagonally so they are centrally loaded & wont try to tip over
regards inter

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## ringtail

But you will get 5% shrinkage out of F14 easy. So a 240 will loose 12 mm quite easily. Ive lost upto 15 mm on my 200 x 75's

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## intertd6

RT thats true for green to seasoned & probably a bit more for the blackbutt that is shown there, the tolerances I quoted are for green timber off the saw, if it was seasoned then that changes things entirely.
regards inter

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## barney118

I would say you would need some bracing for a deck that height on those skinny poles. What are your future plans for the house? The reason I ask is it may have payed off now by piering down for the posts and laying a slab down under in one go.

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## ringtail

> RT thats true for green to seasoned & probably a bit more for the blackbutt that is shown there, the tolerances I quoted are for green timber off the saw, if it was seasoned then that changes things entirely.
> regards inter

  
Agree. Another reason why LVL's are becoming popular for deck construction. Not sure if thats blackbutt though, we get bugger all of that up here. Its pretty popular around the mid NSW coast.

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## intertd6

Quite a few mills that I know of around nthrn NSW send nearly all of their larger sectional sized timber to QLD, especially blackbutt because we have a good supply of large logs & just looking at it, the yellowing, the nice gum vein with that red stain points in the direction of blackbutt.  I dont know what level of H rating  LVL's achieve & at what cost, but undoubtedly thats what will be used in the future when more sustainable forests are locked up for the greens. 
regards inter

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## ringtail

I must admit, Ive never received blackbutt as framing ( for decks), its always been spotty, ironbark or forrest reds. I have got KD blackbutt for doing stairs and servery tops etc... without too much trouble. With the LVL's, H2 or H3 and 10 - 15% cheaper than F14 for the last deck I built using them and getting cheaper than hardwood all the time. I used them for everything ( as was the spec)- bearers, joists, roof beams and rafters. Very happy with the result - long, perfect, stable lengths.

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## adam.baxter

Thanks for the replies guys, all the underfloor timber is F17, roof is using 21c bearers and LVL rafters. There is cross bracing for the posts that will be installed once the concrete has set. I know the frames are a bit unstable but I nailed 1 joist to half of the bearer closest to the house and it has given it a lot of stability. 
I am still at odds whether to get the top of the joists level with no packing or planing then hang the posts wherever they need to be. OR... set the tops of the posts to all the same level and then pack or plane the joists to suit. 
Is linseed oil a suitable replacement for bitumen on the check outs?

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## ringtail

The linseed oil will promote fungus and mould. 4 lt tin of ormanoid bitumen is about $50 - well worth it, leave in the sun to make it more brushable and/or thin with a little bit of turps

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## adam.baxter

Bit of progress on the weekend. Ledger has been fully bolted to the house at 600 centers 
Made up a measuring jig for the first bearer to make it the correct distance from the house, using a plumb bob to centre it. 
Few questions I do have is around the joists, stair landing and handrail posts. The width for the stair landing is 1015 as you can see from the plan below. This is all new to be so please forgive any mistakes or misunderstanding.  
1. I need know the correct way to attach the handrail posts to the joists. I assume notch the bottom of the post to the Inside of the outer most joist leaving atleast 1/3 of its original width and use 2x M10 or M12 bolts to hold it. I am letting the decking hand 30mm over the edge of the Joist. 
2. Should I make the outer edge of the handrail post finish with the end of the decking? or extend the deck a few cm beyond the posts... might need a small bit of timber attached to the outer side of the joist?

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## ringtail

You got it.  
1. Check out the post to the same depth as the joist and use 2 x M12 bolts counter sunk into the outer face of the joist. 
2. Yes keep the outside of the post flush with the outside of the joist and cut the decking to go around the post - can be fiddly.  30 mm over is good for over hang. Sometimes I will run a fascia around the whole deck to protect the joist better and give a good surface to paint, in which case you have to allow for it with the decking so it projects another 30 mm over the facsia. If you use a fascia* do not nail the decking to it* as the joists and fascia will move differently. If you dont use a fascia there is still no need for any additional timber until you get over 80 - 100 mm overhang but 30 - 50 is a good amount

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## barney118

I would appreciate some thoughts on ledger board to a brick veneer house, would it be allowed to take such load? Why did you choose hardwood given it would be open to the elements?

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## adam.baxter

The ledger is attached to the main house timber bearers. 30cm long bolts go through the ledger, brick, lintel, packers, bearer. The brick can take downward load but not in and out. 
What is the alternative to hardwood?

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## barney118

> The ledger is attached to the main house timber bearers. 30cm long bolts go through the ledger, brick, lintel, packers, bearer. The brick can take downward load but not in and out.

  I assume you mean studs.   

> What is the alternative to hardwood?

  Treated pine.

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## adam.baxter

No. The ledger bolts through the brick into the Bearer that holds my house up.  
I'm not convinced that treated pine will last in exposed areas

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## adam.baxter

Little update. Going to concrete the first 3 posts in this weekend.  
Yes I will drain/clean the holes out before pouring concrete  :Wink:

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## ringtail

Meant to rain tomorrow - bugger

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## stevoh741

I'd be painting the parts of the post that will be in contact with the concrete with bitumen before you pour.

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## ringtail

Tru dat. (Flaccid Member Steve, WTF)

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## stevoh741

> Tru dat. (Flaccid Member Steve, WTF)

  Its the one just before golden member. Was wondering how long till someone noticed  :Biggrin:

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## adam.baxter

is bitumen paint necessary on hot dipped posts?

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## ringtail

> is bitumen paint necessary on hot dipped posts?

  
Always a good idea regardless. I reckon you'll be right with the weather - they seem to change the outlook every 5 mins.

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## stevoh741

apparently the concrete can degrade the gal. Some science stuff was posted here a while ago thats prob debatable but I was always taught this similar to using damp course under steel frame. For the small amount of effort it takes then worth doing IMO.

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## r3nov8or

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen this recommendation when using HDG stirrups?

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## barney118

> apparently the concrete can degrade the gal. Some science stuff was posted here a while ago thats prob debatable but I was always taught this similar to using damp course under steel frame. For the small amount of effort it takes then worth doing IMO.

  Search on google and there seems to be no problem with gal. There is an issue with zinc/al or zincalume though the aluminum reacting.

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## ringtail

> Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen this recommendation when using HDG stirrups?

  Thats a very good point, me either

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## intertd6

coating hot dipped steel with bitumen coatings I believe is a requirement of the masonry code for embeded steel items + 100m of the sea but not in a splash zone of salt water (stainless steel for that).
regards inter

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## stevoh741

When I get some time I'll have a search for that old thread

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## strangerep

> With the LVL's, H2 or H3 and 10 - 15% cheaper than F14 for the last deck I built using them and getting cheaper than hardwood all the time. I used them for everything ( as was the spec)- bearers, joists, roof beams and rafters. Very happy with the result - long, perfect, stable lengths.

  LVLs for exterior use, like for a deck?? (I was under the impression that even H3 LVLs are not suited to long-term exposure to wetness.)

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## strangerep

> [flaccid member is] the one just before golden member. Was wondering how long till someone noticed

  I noticed ages ago, but it's way too sad when it actually happens.  :Cry:  
BTW, to become a golden member, do you have to go through a formal hot-dipping ceremony?

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## stevoh741

> I noticed ages ago, but it's way too sad when it actually happens.  
> BTW, to become a golden member, do you have to go through a formal hot-dipping ceremony?

   Lol

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## ringtail

> LVLs for exterior use, like for a deck?? (I was under the impression that even H3 LVLs are not suited to long-term exposure to wetness.)

  They need some lovin before install - paint all round

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## stevoh741

> They need some lovin before install - paint all round

  And joist protection like Malthoid etc. I'm with u ringtail, been recently using LVL and it is so nice not to have to wrestle the @@@@ out of every bit of hardwood to try get it straight. That said I still like my hardwood and still use it if I can buy it straight. Lvl lighter on back and wallet which is also a nice plus...

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## strangerep

> [LVLs] need some lovin before install - paint all round

  Hmmm. What paint do you use, and how many coats?
And how long have you been using LVLs outside in this way?

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## ringtail

> Hmmm. What paint do you use, and how many coats?
> And how long have you been using LVLs outside in this way?

  The last deck I built I used bitumen all round which was a messy PITA. Good oil based primer is fine, but the bitumen is much better. I thinned the bitumen for the first coat and then put a top coat on with no thinning. The oldest deck Ive done using them is coming upto 3 years old ( and went totally underwater in the floods) but they have been used for a lot longer than that. I would think twice about using them on a totally uncovered deck but anything with a roof is fine, including using them for all the roof framing. You can also seal them up with decking finish like aquadeck or sikkens no problems. Hyne used to have a "recommended paint system" for them but its just common sense. Protecting the top is the only real "must do".

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## strangerep

> I would think twice about using [LVLs] on a totally uncovered deck

  Ah, now that's a bit closer to the good oil.   

> but anything with a roof is fine, including using them for all the roof framing. You can also seal them up with decking finish like aquadeck or sikkens no problems.

  Except that the sealing properties of that stuff don't last anywhere near 10-20 years that we'd like it to.   

> Protecting the top is the only real "must do".

  And the ends, I presume?

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## ringtail

> Ah, now that's a bit closer to the good oil.  *Again, its fit for purpose - would I used pine for a uncovered deck, chit no*  
> Except that the sealing properties of that stuff don't last anywhere near 10-20 years that we'd like it to.   *True, but as its not exposed to light like decking it would last a bloody long time*  
> And the ends, I presume?

   - *Goes without saying*

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## adam.baxter

I have concreted some of the posts in but they are not exactly inline. is this a problem?

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## ringtail

> I have concreted some of the posts in but they are not exactly inline. is this a problem?

  Makes things more difficult, how far out are they ?

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## adam.baxter

1-2cm at the most. 
problem lays in the way i chose to support the bearers... they are not perfectly straight so when i bolted the posts up to them and hung them in the hole it was out of alignment a bit. 
I dont think I will use this technique again, unless i have LVL's as bearers

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## ringtail

> 1-2cm at the most. 
> problem lays in the way i chose to support the bearers... they are not perfectly straight so when i bolted the posts up to them and hung them in the hole it was out of alignment a bit. 
> I dont think I will use this technique again, unless i have LVL's as bearers

  Always a problem. Some guys like doing it that way, I dont like it personally. Profiles and string lines for me, posts in first and build up from there.

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## intertd6

> 1-2cm at the most. 
> problem lays in the way i chose to support the bearers... they are not perfectly straight so when i bolted the posts up to them and hung them in the hole it was out of alignment a bit. 
> I dont think I will use this technique again, unless i have LVL's as bearers

  There was no problem with your construction technique, you just needed to use a string line at critical points along the process.
regards inter

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## Bloss

:What he said:  I reckon for DIY that's a better way - all can have their problems - most can be fixed after nowadays.

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## adam.baxter

some more work... working on the stair landing now. going to pickup some hot dip stringers this week. 13 steps

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## ringtail

Looking good. Make sue you pier those footings up above ground level and slope them away from the posts.

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## adam.baxter

Yeah i ran out of aggregate mix to finish that one off. the rest slope off

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## adam.baxter

Put the roof posts up... need to straighten them up a bit. One of them is leaning towards the house at the top. its fine on the other axis 
Cheers,

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## shauck

I've heard others say, be careful trying to push the post straight using the rafters or beams. If you do that, you may put stress on the post. Can you loosen the bolts and pack out or is it a bend in the post? Don't take my word for it as I'm not an expert. Hopefully someone with loads of experience will comment.

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## adam.baxter

Thanks for the reply, the steel and timber posts are not bent but i'd say the bearer is on a slight bend.  
I will pack out between the timber post and the bearer to bring it back into line.

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## Bloss

> I've heard others say, be careful trying to push the post straight using the rafters or beams. If you do that, you may put stress on the post. Can you loosen the bolts and pack out or is it a bend in the post? Don't take my word for it as I'm not an expert. Hopefully someone with loads of experience will comment.

   :What she said:  All components should be stress free except for the loads they are meant to carry - so pack out or check in, don't simply pull or push into place.

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## ringtail

Fibro is your friend. :Biggrin:

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## intertd6

You might have a problem later on by locking your joists to the post, when the timber shrinks from green to seasoned those joists could end up 20mm or so higher than the remaining ones. With the leaning post just temp' pack it plumb then fill gaps with no more skills.
regards inter

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## adam.baxter

Guys, 
Thanks for the help, the next thing I am looking at is the handrail. Please excuse my poor grammar 
I plan on using 90x90 posts and 140mm top handrail with a 19mm rebate under it with vertical slats. I will probably use ladies waist down the stairs to give extra grip to the users. 
the 140mm top will be centered around the 2 115x115 roof posts and directly over the center of the 90x90 handrail posts. I was planning on just going for about a 2m gap between the newel posts, hope that is OK because the deck is 6x6 and i was just going to have 3 equal spaces if that makes sense....  
Thanks,

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## ringtail

Based on previous experience, you will need support every 1 mt on the bottom rail ( I assume you are having one to take the slats) to stop it sagging and looking like crap. All you need is a nice timber block between the bottom rail and the deck, or carry one slat through the bottom rail to sit on the deck.

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## adam.baxter

I will have a bottom rail yes and support it in the middle

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## ringtail

Be warned, the vertical slats are a PITA to paint or clear finish and a bigger PITA to maintain. Be sure to seal the end grain of the slats good and proper as this is where the rot starts when the bottom rail holds water.

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## adam.baxter

Thanks mate.

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## ringtail

I only warn you as the number of less than 5 year old balustrades that I have redone in SS cable just seems to be growing. H3 pine battens, no primer on the ends, bright nails, quick lick of paint with a spray gun = rust stains and rot. Get a few good wet seasons and it happens pretty quickly. Hardwood battens are much better for durability IMO but cost more $$$. But the main issue is sealing the ends. If painting, 2 coats of oil based primer and 3 top coats with a brush. If clear finishing soak the ends in a bucket of the whatever finish you choose overnight at least. Or just go cable and be done with it for ever. :Biggrin:

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## adam.baxter

Im hearing you, It will all be kwila. 
no pine down below, only pine will be the LVL's in the roof.

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## stevoh741

[QUOTE=adam.baxter;881176]Im hearing you, It will all be kwila[QUOTE] 
watch for the staining

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## ringtail

[QUOTE=stevoh741;881198][QUOTE=adam.baxter;881176]Im hearing you, It will all be kwila  

> watch for the staining

  I'd be giving it 3 coats min before install

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## adam.baxter

So if i was to go down the stainless path, what spacing do i need? is there a bsa guide? i had a quick search but couldnt find specifics 
also, ringtail can you tell me where i can get those flat stainless intermediate posts from??  
Thanks,

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## ringtail

> So if i was to go down the stainless path, what spacing do i need? is there a bsa guide? i had a quick search but couldnt find specifics 
> also, ringtail can you tell me where i can get those flat stainless intermediate posts from??  
> Thanks,

  80 mm spacings with intermediate support every 1 mt. *Miami Stainless* do everything. The middle posts cost me about $ 90 each last time I bought them. If you go for a DIY system where you make the cable runs yourself ( as opposed to having the cable pre swaged) go for 3.2mm 7x19 cable as it is much more flexible than 7x7. Costs a tiny bit more but much better to work with if bending around thimbles before hand swaging. They also have the BCA regs on their site which refer to tensions and deflections etc...Apparently the certifier is meant to turn up with a testing kit. A weight of a certain value is placed mid span and the deflection is measure. I have never had a certifier do this ever. As long as the spacing is 80 mm and the cable is tight its all good.

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## adam.baxter

I was going to use those stainless intermediate posts but they are too expensive, i would need around 7 of them which would be many hundreds of dollars. 
Do you see any problem if i divide up the required spans making them around 1.4-1.5m and use 90x90 posts? my concern is given the side of the deck where the stair landing is the handrail is shorter than that of the other side of the deck and the posts wont be in the same spot. Just a visual thing..... perhaps i could work out from the house with the same spacing as the other side and have 2 posts closer together at the top of the landing. 
I hope this makes sense  :Smilie:  it does to me! 
Regards, 
Adam

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## ringtail

Those stainless posts are pricey but do achieve / complete the look and in the overall cost of the job are not that big a factor but the customer pays for them ultimately, not me. 1.5 mt for the post spacing is not ideal but certainly do able. Have a look on the miami stainless web site for the regs. There is a section there with post spacings and how this changes the cable requirements. I'm not really in the position to say yes or no but suffice to say, if you comply with the regs you will be fine. Sometimes you do have to compromise post location to achieve the end result and Ive found over the years that it doesn't matter if post spacings are different on different sides of the deck as long as each run has equal spacings it will look fine.

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## adam.baxter

Thanks, 
this is from their website. I will go with that option I think.  *3mm 7 x 7:*  We have found that   when using 3.2mm 7 x 7 wire  having your posts spaced at 1500mm with your wires at 80mm spacing   is the easiest way to ensure that   the tension required for    your balustrade will   be easily achievable and will   pass inspection.
This means that a balustrade with wire support posts every 1200mm or 1500mm, and a top rail height of 1   metre (960mm under the top rail) will  require 11 runs of wire   when   spaced at 80mm with a tension that will be easily achievable.

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## cherub65

As Ringtail was saying they can measure,
That will equate to Max 5mm deflection with a 2Kg mass placed at mid span

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## ringtail

I would still go for the 3.2 mm 7 x 19 cable. Much nicer to work with. The 7x7 is ok but for not much more $$ the 7x19 is heaps better IMHO. Lots more flexy but if $$ are tight 7x7 will do the job

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## cherub65

Just need a bit more tension on the 7x19 to get it to spec. also

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## adam.baxter

Do you mean 1x19 ?

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## adam.baxter

sorry, i see you can get 7x19. I cannot however see on the miami stainless website the regulations for 7x19 3.2mm. 
305m roll on ebay is around $270 shipped... for 7x19  
my posts are now 1200 apart. 
Regards,

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## ringtail

> sorry, i see you can get 7x19. I cannot however see on the miami stainless website the regulations for 7x19 3.2mm. 
> 305m roll on ebay is around $270 shipped... for 7x19  
> my posts are now 1200 apart. 
> Regards,

  
Be careful of the quality if the source is unknown. How much do you need ?

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## adam.baxter

Around 260m

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## ringtail

> Around 260m

  
Soon adds up eh.

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## adam.baxter

What sort of fittings would you recommend ? 
to suit the 7x19 
hydraulic or hand swage

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## ringtail

> What sort of fittings would you recommend ? 
> to suit the 7x19 
> hydraulic or hand swage

  
I hand swage everything on all of my jobs. I'm not much of a fan of the pre swaged as they generally don't allow for much, if any adjustment which can be a issue if your posts aren't dead plumb. Although I have noticed Miami recently added a pre swaged system using the 5 mm bottle screw which would work great. It is more expensive than making on site but saves time on install and would look heaps neater if you have no experience in hand swaging. I've redone quite a few DIY jobs that just look awful because of dodgy swaging.  Miami Stainless - Jaw Swage Bottlescrew Wire Balustrade

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## adam.baxter

rite, so to do those which i like i would need to buy a hydraulic swaging tool? 
I have seen them pretty cheap...

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## ringtail

> rite, so to do those which i like i would need to buy a hydraulic swaging tool? 
> I have seen them pretty cheap...

  Nah, they swage them in the factory. All you need to do is give them the dimensions. Give Andrew a call or send him a email.

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## adam.baxter

Few questions.. 
what is the best way to put a handrail post in after decking has been laid? I was going to use stainless posts that screw down between the kwila posts but have since changed my mind after seeing the price of them. 
I need to add 1 90x90 kwila post where there is currently decking nailed down... i was going to just mark the measurements and cut the edges with a drill bit to get the round part... then use the jigsaw. 
also. the end joists where the posts bolt to are not exactly all standing upright, am i best off bending them straight then nailing the decking down so the posts wont need custom work on each one to get them to stand perfectly upright... 
Regards, 
Adam

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## ringtail

> Few questions.. 
> what is the best way to put a handrail post in after decking has been laid? I was going to use stainless posts that screw down between the kwila posts but have since changed my mind after seeing the price of them. 
> I need to add 1 90x90 kwila post where there is currently decking nailed down... i was going to just mark the measurements and cut the edges with a drill bit to get the round part... then use the jigsaw. 
> also. the end joists where the posts bolt to are not exactly all standing upright, am i best off bending them straight then nailing the decking down so the posts wont need custom work on each one to get them to stand perfectly upright... 
> Regards, 
> Adam

  You should put all the posts in first, plumb them up and brace them off so yes get the joist right first. Then lay the decking. With that 90 x 90 you could do as you described no problems or just batten screw (2) up through the decking boards if its just a mid span post. Give the decking board a good clearance hole so it doesn't split and seal the bottom of the post well with decking finish. 
How's ya back and knees going ? :Biggrin:

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## adam.baxter

Do you know anyone else who sells those intermediate stainless flat posts? 
$100 each from Miami is rather expensive, I need around 9 of them. 
Regards,

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## ringtail

> Do you know anyone else who sells those intermediate stainless flat posts? 
> $100 each from Miami is rather expensive, I need around 9 of them. 
> Regards,

  
Not off the top of my head but any SS fab shop should be able knock them up for you. Maybe do a quick sketch with dimensions and hole placement ( for cable and mounting), scan and email it around to a few shops. Once you get the price ask how much for trade as you are a owner builder

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## adam.baxter

Hi Guys, 
Things are progressing well, I am looking to make a start on the roof and was wondering about using a 100PFC for the roof beam that sits over the tiled roof on the house as this is a flyover roof. 
Does anyone know the maximum allowable cantilever for Steel PFC sections??  
Regards, 
Adam.

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## ringtail

Not 100 % sure but timber is half the back span. PFC will be a PITA to get up there. I just use LVL's for my roof beams.

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## r3nov8or

This should help, but remember details may vary so check with your manufacturer. May need engineering approval depending on what you are planning    http://www.renovateforum.com/f221/st...00/#post854891

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## shauck

Something you don't always see on the pdf's downloadable from website is the cantilever/backspan. When you get the brackets, it's in the packet. I found it online, so here it is. It's a bit limited in information but it's something to go off.  lengths.pdf

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## stevoh741

Personally I'd speak to an engineer for using steel. Cheap insurance if nothing else.

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## cas

If you haven't done your stainless wire yet and are still looking for an alternative to the stainless intermediate posts, we use 45x45 kwila for the intermediates at work. They tie in nicely with the rest of the timber. Just make up a jig out of a bit of box section so you can drill your holes through it nice and straight. Or if you like the look of balustrade and don't want the problems of timber, we often get aluminium panels fabbed up. Get them powdercoated whatever colour you want and you don't have to paint them. take no time to install either.

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## adam.baxter

Thanks Guys. 
What is a good way to attach a 140x42 handrail to the top of the 90x90 posts? 
The handrail will sit on top of the posts, not go around them, what i was going to do to conceal the fixings was get some 75x5 stainless plate, cut it around 200mm long and batten screw it to the top of the post then use 4 smaller batten screws or something similar to screw up through the plate into the handrail.  
Thoughts? I dont want screws going straight down through the handrail into the post 
Thanks,

----------


## ringtail

> Thoughts? I dont want screws going straight down through the handrail into the post 
> Thanks,

  
May I ask why not ?

----------


## adam.baxter

Is that using filler or a cut bit of timber to fill

----------


## ringtail

Plugs cut from waste Kwila. There are 4 of them there.  @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @Ringtail Carpentry - Home

----------


## adam.baxter

Ok im sold.  :Smilie:

----------


## ringtail

Just have to get hold of a *good* set of plug cutters - maybe look at carbatec

----------


## adam.baxter

I'm planning on using 10x Stainless wires for the balustrade. Any problems with that? The gap is well within 125mm.

----------


## stevoh741

> I'm planning on using 10x Stainless wires for the balustrade. Any problems with that? The gap is well within 125mm.

  gap was 80mm last time I looked

----------


## ringtail

Yep 80 mm spacings. Used to be 100 but its too hard to achieve the deflection figures so 80 is the commonly accepted standard. Have a read through the Miami Stainless website. New rules coming in with offset hand rails and other such bollocks  Miami Stainless - Stainless Steel Fittings and Connectors

----------


## adam.baxter

Rite.. 
So to fill a 1m Gap between the floor and the underside of the Handrail I will need 13 Runs.

----------


## ringtail

> Rite.. 
> So to fill a 1m Gap between the floor and the underside of the Handrail I will need 13 Runs.

  
Nope.  *Option A* - 12 will give you 960 from FFL + the 80 mm above the last run ( if you want to keep it consistent ) will put the bottom of the handrail @ 1040 mm + the thickness of the handrail ( say 42 mm) will give you 1082 to the top side of the handrail.  *Option B* -  only do 11 runs which will put the top wire at 880 mm from FFL + 80 gap above puts the bottom of the hand rail @ 960 + the thickness of the top rail ( say 42 mm) will give a total height of 1002 mm, which is legal but very tight. If you go for a 45 mm top rail you should be fine. *This is normally what I do.*  *Option C* -  do 12 runs but drop the gap between the top cable and the handrail to 40 mm which will give you 1000 + thickness of the handrail (42) which will give 1042. Heaps of margin.

----------


## adam.baxter

Thank you. I think I will go with the first option to have the handrail slightly higher. 
Thanks again,

----------


## ringtail

> Thank you. I think I will go with the first option to have the handrail slightly higher. 
> Thanks again,

  No probs. The higher handrail is neither here or there. If it looks consistent going 80 odd mm higher will not be noticed and gives you more piece of mind and is a good idea anyway. I mainly go with option B because this is what is specced by the designer most times. Have fun. :Biggrin:

----------


## adam.baxter

I will start on the handrails when I get some more $$$ but With the post that attaches to the brick.. the end post. 
Should I continue it through the floorboards ? Or have it sit directly on top or just above???

----------


## ringtail

> I will start on the handrails when I get some more $$$ but With the post that attaches to the brick.. the end post. 
> Should I continue it through the floorboards ? Or have it sit directly on top or just above???

  If you can take it through the decking and half house it on to the end joist that would be my choice. You would also have to put a trimmer in to carry the decking board/s - no biggy but more work

----------


## adam.baxter

Hi Guys, 
I am now at the process of putting the handrail and balustrade on. Currently I have the posts coming out of the decking. I also need to trim the decking boards. 
I was thinking of doing the following.... let me know whether there is a better idea. 
1. Mark each post where it need to be cut.
2. Unbolt the posts and cut them down with the drop saw.
3. at the same time the posts are down use the circular saw to trim the decking.
4. put the posts back in and batten screw down the handrail using ringtails method with the plug cutter.
5. drill the holes in the posts for the stainless wire
6. thread stainless through and attach. 
Regards, 
Adam

----------


## ringtail

Depends how accurate you are with a circular saw. Heaps easier and neater to use the drop saw if you dont mind doing the extra work of removing the posts and refitting them. While out, you could also drill the holes for the cable on a drill press which is much easier than free handing.

----------


## adam.baxter

Ok, 
I have a drill press and drop saw so i'll take them and do all the work. 
next questions.... my handrail will be 140x42 and the 2 posts holding up the outter part of the roof are 115x115. If i was to go around them i would only have 12mm~ of meat to secure the handrail in which leaves no room for plugs and so on to conceal the batten screws. 
How should I attach the handrail to those? there are only 2 115x115 Posts, the rest are 90x90 and the handrail will screw to the top of them. 
Cheers, 
Adam.

----------


## cas

> Ok, 
> I have a drill press and drop saw so i'll take them and do all the work. 
> next questions.... my handrail will be 140x42 and the 2 posts holding up the outter part of the roof are 115x115. If i was to go around them i would only have 12mm~ of meat to secure the handrail in which leaves no room for plugs and so on to conceal the batten screws. 
> How should I attach the handrail to those? there are only 2 115x115 Posts, the rest are 90x90 and the handrail will screw to the top of them. 
> Cheers, 
> Adam.

   You could skew nail it with a couple of 2 inch nails from underneath into the post to hold it in position, then get a couple of screws in from underneath on an angle and countersink the heads so you can't see them. Will only be visible if you go looking for it from underneath.

----------


## ScroozAdmin

> Although I have noticed Miami recently added a pre swaged system using the 5 mm bottle screw which would work great. It is more expensive than making on site but saves time on install and would look heaps neater if you have no experience in hand swaging.

  We have them also, along with an auto calculator on the site so you can quote the full job instantly in real time, takes 48hrs to manufacture, here's the link stainless steel wire balustrade

----------


## ringtail

> Ok, 
> next questions.... my handrail will be 140x42 and the 2 posts holding up the outter part of the roof are 115x115. If i was to go around them i would only have 12mm~ of meat to secure the handrail in which leaves no room for plugs and so on to conceal the batten screws. 
> How should I attach the handrail to those? there are only 2 115x115 Posts, the rest are 90x90 and the handrail will screw to the top of them. 
> Cheers, 
> Adam.

  
I'd be coming back from the section that is cut around the post and skew in from both sides. Still use the plugs but dont go to deep with the spade bit or the plug wont be long enough ( on the angle) to trim it / sand it flush. You might need a bit of colour match putty. Intergrain do a good range of exterior stuff now.

----------


## adam.baxter

you lost me there.... 
you mean still wrap around the post? or cut down the 140 an inch or so on an angle before it meets the 115x115 
?

----------


## ringtail

> you lost me there.... 
> you mean still wrap around the post? or cut down the 140 an inch or so on an angle before it meets the 115x115 
> ?

  
Sorry. Yep, still wrap around the post but instead of trying to fix to the post through whats left of the handrail ( that wraps around the post), I would come back to where the handrail is full width and skew a fixing into the post ( on each side and maybe 1 from the bottom.

----------


## ringtail

Like this

----------


## adam.baxter

Thanks Again  :Smilie:

----------


## ringtail

No worries. Must have close up pics of finished product  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

----------


## adam.baxter

ok, 
i bought 4 lengths of FJ 140x42 so that will get me motivated! 
now my next problem... i was not going to have a privacy screen at first! how mad am I. 
the problem is... i have already made the holes in the decking for the 90x90 posts for the handrail, how should I make a privacy screen now? there are a few ideas i thought of. 
1. make all the handrail as per normal with the stainless below and then make a privacy screen and batten screw it down to the 140x42 handrail....
2. extend all the 90x90 post by replacing them with 2.4m ones or so, then have the 68x19 screen battens go between the 90x90 posts set inside the posts.. if that makes sense.
3. cut the 90x90 posts down to around 80mm above the FFL, make a screen and fix it to the cut down posts 
also. i was planning on having a bit of handrail on that side but only 2 or so M of the 5.8 total. 
Cheers,

----------


## r3nov8or

I think option 2 would be the best, especially in strong winds. You don't really need to do as high as 2.4m though - just above a tall persons's eye level would be enough, but personal choice of course.

----------


## adam.baxter

Yeah it would only be around 2M. and the winds do get quite high.... 
I like option 2 the most aswell

----------


## adam.baxter

ringtail ??? 
Im waiting for your input  :Smilie:

----------


## ringtail

Sorry, been smashed by work.  
If you can stand the pain, I would replace the posts. Wind load on a batten screen is substantial enough to warrant the expense IMO.

----------


## adam.baxter

would you reccommend for that side of the deck not using stainless ballustrade ? and just use horizontal slats... 
i was only going to put up the screen for 2/3 of the deck on that side. thinking either continue with standard handrail and stainless or just slats

----------


## ringtail

A full length screen can look really good as can a 2/3 one. Totally personal choice and it depends on what you are trying to screen out

----------


## adam.baxter

Finally making some progress! 
partially bolted the end post to the wall using ultrafix.

----------


## ringtail

Cable time. Woohoo :2thumbsup:

----------


## adam.baxter

So i bought some plug cutters from carba... 
They are rather tight to fit in the hole, i assume that is fine. also.. i have external waterproof timber glue to hold them in?  
cheers,

----------


## ringtail

Yep they should be tight, not so tight that you cant get them started in the hole though. :Biggrin:  External PVA is fine

----------


## adam.baxter

Done 1 section... 
Another question I have... the handrail for the stairs. Does it also need to be 1m at the top? I was planning on using ladies waiste going down the stairs... how should the connection between the 140x42 and the ladies waiste look? 
.... 
Do I take the 140 over the top of the post like i have for all the others or extend the post through and have the ladies waiste come in at the same height

----------


## ringtail

No. The handrail height for stairs is 865 mm minimum from the nosing line - measured vertically. So if you go to the front of any tread ( the nose) and run a tape up the side of a level to make sure its plumb, get your measurement. Be careful to read the correct side of the tape too ( read the side against the level). You can sit the ladies waist on top of the post and bevel the top of the post to the same width as the ladies waist - or simply run the post 100 mm or so higher and butt the ladies waist into the post. 
At the top of the stairs I'd run the 140 over the post by 50 mm and butt the ladies waist in below it. I normally use 90 x 42 kwila for stair handrails and sit it on top of the posts all the way down the stairs 
Looking excellent BTW  :2thumbsup: . Get some plugs in those holes pronto too. The last thing you want in there is water.

----------


## adam.baxter

what do you think about not having the 140 go around the 115 post? 
like in the picture attached

----------


## ringtail

The main issue is mostly visual I think. With the rounded edges of the post I would pull the bevel on the handrail back a bit so it doesn't expose the rounded edge of the post. Or better still, check the post out 40 mm and sit the handrail inside the post and just run a round over bit in the router over the corners of the handrail. Just butting the rail into the post could appear a bit ordinary and be difficult to fix nicely

----------


## adam.baxter

Thanks again, 
I assume the 80mm spacing of the balustrade is the same for stairs? 
see the attached photo... i left the post out in the weather for too long without sealing it. I have since sanded it back and put lots of bitumen paint on it... yes i got lazy

----------


## ringtail

With cable it is generally the accepted standard although stairs are funny things - if you space them at 80 they actually end up being 60 if measured at right angles to the cable and 80 if measured vertically. A lot of guys run them at 100 down stairs which measures about 80 at right angles. However, be mindful of having two sets of fittings next to each other and 1 set is 80 and 1 set is 100 ( like where the deck meets the stairs). Again, purely visual preference

----------


## adam.baxter

Needs some filler.... you said Intergrain sell a good one?

----------


## ringtail

Looking great mate. Yep intergrain do a range of exterior putty. Take a timber sample for matching. Bunnings stock it

----------


## adam.baxter

I have the following concerns... 
1. There is not much meat on the handrail section that goes around the 115 post... suggestions here? I have SS Decking screws I could use there and have them sit flush? only 12mm of Timber available.
2. Do I need to get the cuts perfect or just do my best and use putty to make them look neat..
3. The angle of the handrail for the stair landing was suppose to be 90deg but I messed up and its around 95.. A builder that I know said i'm been paranoid and no one will notice...  :Smilie:

----------


## r3nov8or

Have/will you used rintail's method in post #118? 
For the 12mm wraps you could simply use an exterior PVA, or for more strength source or turn a piece of merbau into a dowel, drill, glue and install. One short dowel from each side would do. Installed well they would just look like plugs. 
Your builder is an imperfectionist like many, none around here though  :Smilie:

----------


## ringtail

1. I'd use the method in post 118
2. get them as neat as you can - take your time and use mega sharp chisels / saws etc... and neaten it up with putty
3. got a piccy ?

----------


## adam.baxter

I'm trying to do a good job but given I have never done this before I do make mistakes and it really gives me the @@@@@... thats how it works 
I need to re-do the corner handrail.... I cut it too short before the 90deg....

----------


## ringtail

Make the mistake and learn from it. Been there , done that. It hurts when its a customers house and you have effectively just lost money in time and materials by rushing but thems the breaks. I'll say it again though, take it slow, really slow. Stop and think about everything before you do it - check it and check it again before cutting. Everybody makes mistakes and plenty of them. Some are a disaster and need a total do over and some are recoverable. In the end you will have a job to be proud of  :2thumbsup:

----------


## adam.baxter

so... i'm thinking... what about putting screws through the side and just sink them a little bit and putty over the top? 
just some decking screws to hold the section in place.. 
thoughts?

----------


## ringtail

You could do that no probs but I would also skew at least one in from the bottom for added security - more easily hidden with putty too

----------


## adam.baxter

I will still be using 2 100mm batten screws to fasten it properly from either the sides as you suggested earlier or from underneath. 
How do I get a nice countersink hole that is not at 90deg to the material ? for skewing the batten screws from underneath

----------


## ringtail

> I will still be using 2 100mm batten screws to fasten it properly from either the sides as you suggested earlier or from underneath. 
> How do I get a nice countersink hole that is not at 90deg to the material ? for skewing the batten screws from underneath

  
Very sharp ( new) spade bits do the job everytime. Start the off more square to get them to bite and then move them to the desired angle. Remember not to go too deep either. You just want enough to cover the head. When securing to the post predrill with a 5 mm bit ( get a long series) through the handrail and post then run a 6 mm through the handrail only ( again use a long series bit - much easier)

----------


## adam.baxter

So im looking to get started on the roof.... 
for the penetrations through the tile, where in brisbane can i find some suitable flashing? its for 75x75 SHS.... I would prefer not to use lead but use aluminium instead. I see I can buy rolls of alloy from bunnings and seperate deks but yeah,..

----------


## ringtail

You wont get anything decent at Bunnings. Go to a plumbers supplies and get them to pull out the flashing book. Within all sorts of wonders are contained. Select what you need and order it. Most plumbers supplies get their stock from a place called "moody and winters". Whether its a dektite or larger style with a big apron they will have them.

----------


## adam.baxter

My mate works at reece so i'll hit him up...  
next thing is.. the deck has been out in the weather for around 4 months... I am not finished it off yet but that might not happen for another 3 months. Should i get the decking oil onto what parts are done to protect it?  
I also just ordered 2 beams for the roof... 245x65 and 120x65

----------


## ringtail

I would. I'm not a fan of letting the decking weather at all. I try to seal it up ASAP.

----------


## adam.baxter

i assume it wont matter if the whole thing isnt done at the same time? 
I can always just wash off what I put down and do a final once the whole thing is completed.... i will use feast waston i believe now...

----------


## ringtail

You might get a different appearance due to different amounts of weathering prior to coating. Jimj might chip in

----------


## adam.baxter

Bit of an update... 
Roof beams, rafters, battens have been ordered.  
1x 245x65 Hyne 21c and 1x 120x65 21c.
Rafters are 200x45 LVL 
10 sheets @ 7.2 Colorbond

----------


## adam.baxter

Hi, 
Main beam is inplace and the rafters and other beam are up on the deck waiting to be installed. I was thinking of giving the LVL's a light sand and coat with oil or water based decking stain.. thoughts? should i just get a cheap brand i.e. cabots to do the rafters? and not such a dark color 
also.. i was just at bunnings and noticed that feast watson have water based and oil based decking oil/stain.... which is easier to administer? i was tending towards oil... 
Cheers, 
Adam.

----------


## ringtail

Crane ! ? That's cheating  :Biggrin:  :Tongue: . I would avoid the oil based stain as mould will go for it. I have used water based paint but over a oil based primer. I find the LOSP treatment messes with most water based finishes unless a oil based primer is used first.

----------


## adam.baxter

feast watson say their oil hybrid is anti mould.... 
its Oil based but water washup. 
Cheers,

----------


## ringtail

Can only give it a go I guess

----------


## adam.baxter

i thought you knew what you were doing  :Smilie:

----------


## ringtail

I aint no painter  :Tongue:  :Tongue:

----------


## adam.baxter

How do you normally secure rafters to beams? 
I have been told in the plans to use 2x 50x50 steel brackets... one on each side of the rafter. 50mm batten screws going down and 1 m10 bolt joining the brackets... my only concern is that i dont beleive 50mm is sufficient for a 200 high LVL.  
thoughts? 
on the top beam which runs over the tiles i was just going to use triple grips and have the nails on the far side of the beam so you cant see them. 
Cheers,

----------


## ringtail

> How do you normally secure rafters to beams? 
> I have been told in the plans to use 2x 50x50 steel brackets... one on each side of the rafter. 50mm batten screws going down and 1 m10 bolt joining the brackets... my only concern is that i dont beleive 50mm is sufficient for a 200 high LVL.  
> thoughts? 
> on the top beam which runs over the tiles i was just going to use triple grips and have the nails on the far side of the beam so you cant see them. 
> Cheers,

  
Exactly the same way one fixes joists to bearers. 1 x 75 mm skew nail + 1 x triple grip. Cross strap GI bracing with tensioners in a *XX* pattern carrying the strap onto the beams and you're done. That 50 mm bracket caper is rubbish for non cyclonic.

----------


## adam.baxter

Ok thanks, 
and does the strapping go over the battens or under them? 
also.. i have looked at the product guide for builex and it advises to use 12gx50mm roofing screws.. no problems there? I see there are 14g ones I think which are thicker. Just standard colorbond. 
Cheers,

----------


## ringtail

> Ok thanks, 
> and does the strapping go over the battens or under them? 
> also.. i have looked at the product guide for builex and it advises to use 12gx50mm roofing screws.. no problems there? I see there are 14g ones I think which are thicker. Just standard colorbond. 
> Cheers,

  
Strapping normally goes under the battens. You can use speed brace but I dont like it for rafters ( ok on trusses). Fix the strapping at either end and nail it off, install the tensioners and tension, then nail off the strap to the rest of the rafters. Just the standard roof screws are fine

----------


## shauck

I like to put the battens in place first and feed the strap under the battens which isn't difficult to do. That way the battens stop any twisting in the top of the rafters when you tension them. This has happened to me once so that was my solution. There may be other methods. Maybe I just tensioned them too tight?? Strong for a girl  :Biggrin:

----------


## ringtail

> I like to put the battens in place first and feed the strap under the battens which isn't difficult to do. That way the battens stop any twisting in the top of the rafters when you tension them. This has happened to me once so that was my solution. There may be other methods. Maybe I just tensioned them too tight?? Strong for a girl

  
The last roof I did I put the battens on first too, made it easier to scoot around up there with the battens in place

----------


## r3nov8or

Me too. Battens first, and bracing under them. This also keeps the bracing from 'chatting' with the sheet roofing. If the bracing path hits a rafter/batten junction, just let off that batten screw a little until you have tensioned the brace and then re-tighten the screw/s.

----------


## adam.baxter

Wicked.. thanks guys and girls.

----------


## adam.baxter

Hi all, 
Got the rafters up yesterday. Is the diagional bracing essential ? I assume yes..

----------


## Bloss

> Hi all, 
> Got the rafters up yesterday. Is the diagional bracing essential ? I assume yes..

  You assume correctly . . .

----------


## ringtail

Yes indeed. Its primary function is to prevent racking from wind load,but it also stiffens the whole roof structure and provides extra tie down - although ultimately, the bracing has no bearing on whether the roof blows off as the tin is fixed to the battens. The same bracing with tensioners should be used on the bottom of the floor joists.

----------


## r3nov8or

Also, if you haven't already, best to protect the car from tannins leeching onto the duco.

----------


## adam.baxter

haha.. the deck has finished losing its tannins. the car is just for shooting and 4x4ing  :Smilie:  
roof sheets going on tomorrow, wether permitting 
Thanks guys,

----------


## adam.baxter

roof is on...

----------


## 6hillview

The jobs lookin good mate.
 I'm watching threads like this as I have a extention I need to do  too.
For some reason I cant click on the pictures to make them bigger, I think cause I'm still a newby (oh and I only read playboy for the editorials lol).
Cheers Troy

----------


## ringtail

Looks good. Do my eyes deceive me ? I cant see any strapping

----------


## Bloss

> Looks good. Do my eyes deceive me ? I cant see any strapping

  He'll be able to bung it on easily when the roof gets lifted over the the next door neighbours yard during the next big blow . . .  :Wink:   :Redface:  
Good to see all the OH&S gear too . . .  :Rolleyes:  Gotta love DIY . . . 
But it's gunna be a very nice deck to use

----------


## adam.baxter

there is 1 X 
I didnt use triple grips on the main beam to hold the rafters on... i think they look a bit ugly so i used 100x100x50 brackets with 2x 50mm batten screws going down into the beam and 2x m12 bolts through the rafter. 
On the beam above the tile roof I used triple grips. 
Cheers,

----------


## ringtail

Well that shouldn't go anywhere in a hurry  :2thumbsup:

----------


## Bloss

> Well that shouldn't go anywhere in a hurry

   :What he said:  clear in the latest pic. . .  :2thumbsup:

----------


## adam.baxter

I'm about to make a privacy screen.... Bunnings seem to have the cheapest screening material available. 68x15 kwila fj... $7~ for a 2.4m length... 
any concerns with the 15mm aspect? the posts that it will attach to are around 1100 apart

----------


## ringtail

Going to paint or clear finish ? Be careful with the fj stuff if it cops heavy sun and is clear finished. Needless to say, if painting kwila, oil based primer is a absolute must

----------


## adam.baxter

Just oil them.. they will only get afternoon sun

----------


## adam.baxter

So i went to a timber yard in Brisbane and they have this laminated kwila screening.... i'm not convinced it will be as durable as FJ or Solid kwila... 
its just ply with kwila veneer on each face... has anyone else come across this?

----------


## ringtail

Never seen it before. I wont use FJ for anything other than posts. All decking / screening / handrails are solid.

----------


## adam.baxter

Hi All, 
been a while... got 2 coats of FW oil on the deck and now need to make the handrail... photos just dont do it justice 
as you can see from the attached photo there will be 3 posts, spacing is 1300/1100/1100. 
ringtail.. i see in on your website you used 10 runs of stainless, what spacing was that and what overall height did you use.... 
i beleive the angle is 35deg but im guessing i should double check that 
cheers, 
Adam.

----------


## ringtail

Looking the goods Adam. I think it was about 80 ish which makes it about 65 when measured parallel to the nosing line of the treads and height to the top of the handrail was about 900 ( I think, it was a while ago that one  :Biggrin: )

----------


## trenta

> Hi all, 
> Got the rafters up yesterday. Is the diagional bracing essential ? I assume yes..

  Probably a silly question but what product did you use to attach the roof to your new roof? Do you need to do anything to the tiles?

----------


## ringtail

Roof Extenda Bracket - Roof Extenda Pty Ltd

----------


## adam.baxter

not a silly question at all... i bought some 76mm tube and welded a rectangular base to it which sits on the timber frame of the house inside the brick veneer and on the top it has some unequal angle welded to it with some bolt holes to go through the timber. you can buy a product from bunnings and other places called roof extenda which do the same thing but i dont believe provide as much side to side support for the size of my roof. 
anyway, i then got some rubber flashing's with a full aluminum base and simply cut a section of tile with a diamond blade grinder to roughly fit the pipe through.

----------


## adam.baxter

These are the flashings..

----------


## ringtail

I've made my own posts and used the extendas. The standard extendas are way too light duty and I always go up scale to the heavy duty version which is good. Custom fab posts are great too but really need a engineering certificate to comply.

----------


## trenta

> I've made my own posts and used the extendas. The standard extendas are way too light duty and I always go up scale to the heavy duty version which is good. Custom fab posts are great too but really need a engineering certificate to comply.

   Cheers guys. I have a pergola at the moment running off the fascia but when I put the deck in I feel the current pergola will be too low. Now I'm thinking of running a shade sail instead. Is there a cheaper option for the shade sail hook than the extenda model if I ran it from my tiled roof?

----------


## ringtail

You must be extremely careful with sails and their fittings. They are subject to extreme stress and therefore require specialist fittings. Definitely one area I wouldn't skimp on.

----------


## trenta

> You must be extremely careful with sails and their fittings. They are subject to extreme stress and therefore require specialist fittings. Definitely one area I wouldn't skimp on.

   I was going to attach a square one. 2 sides to my tiles roof and two to my steel garage. Bad move?

----------


## adam.baxter

nothing wrong with it, i saw on one website the roof extenda brackets for shade sails were around $60 which i think is a good price. spend a bit extra the first time and do it right...

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## trenta

> nothing wrong with it, i saw on one website the roof extenda brackets for shade sails were around $60 which i think is a good price. spend a bit extra the first time and do it right...

   Cheers. It will save me bucketloads (although I have a pergola there already - too low once the deck goes in). This will work on the house roof but what about the garage roof. Was thinking of drilling a hole through the roof and purlin (hope thats the correct term) and attaching an eye bolt. Will that work people?

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## ringtail

As long as the shed had adequate tie down and bracing it should be fine however, I would be putting a steel plate on both sides of the purlin to act as washers and distribute the load.

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## trenta

> As long as the shed had adequate tie down and bracing it should be fine however, I would be putting a steel plate on both sides of the purlin to act as washers and distribute the load.

   Would I make up my own steel plate?

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## ringtail

If you can. 2 bits of 8 mm would be plenty I would think

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## Rip it up

Have a think about stainless 316SS u bolts too. Might be hard to get a big enough length to go through the full portal "c" section but a thick piece of flat bar that sits inside the lip of the "c" section might work also. Or go a rated pad eye like a rigging eye.  
I am just starting to organize the structural needs for a shade sail joining house to a shed 4m away. 1200mm height difference from house gutter to shed gutter. This is the avenue I am looking into for the shed connection. But the house is proving difficult. Timber trusses and Battens.

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## intertd6

I haven't been paying attention to this project, but is that roof & attachment to the main structure engineer designed ? From what I can see there is no lateral bracing anywhere . What is going to stop the structure rotating off house frame ?Regards inter

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## adam.baxter

no engineer has been involved, just the certifiers and draftsman 
however, i'm pretty confident now that its capable of holding up... been through ex tropical cyclone tim and so on. i know that wont satisy an engineer however  :Smilie:  
if your looking top down on the roof it has the x bracing which when i put on it really did make the whole roof act as one... as its supposed to 
before i put the privacy screen on the roof could rotate clockwise and anti clockwise a bit when pushed, now with the screen on anchoring one of the main posts to the house it doesnt move like it did. 
i have seen a few other roofs of the same size and they dont have any knee bracing on the roof structure. 
thoughts?

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## intertd6

> no engineer has been involved, just the certifiers and draftsman 
> however, i'm pretty confident now that its capable of holding up... been through ex tropical cyclone tim and so on. i know that wont satisy an engineer however  
> if your looking top down on the roof it has the x bracing which when i put on it really did make the whole roof act as one... as its supposed to 
> before i put the privacy screen on the roof could rotate clockwise and anti clockwise a bit when pushed, now with the screen on anchoring one of the main posts to the house it doesnt move like it did. 
> i have seen a few other roofs of the same size and they dont have any knee bracing on the roof structure. 
> thoughts?

  It looks deficient for bracing & the way you said it wobbled is a good indicator that it is.
regards inter

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## gavincrane

> Have a think about stainless 316SS u bolts too. Might be hard to get a big enough length to go through the full portal "c" section but a thick piece of flat bar that sits inside the lip of the "c" section might work also. Or go a rated pad eye like a rigging eye.  I am just starting to organize the structural needs for a shade sail joining house to a shed 4m away. 1200mm height difference from house gutter to shed gutter. This is the avenue I am looking into for the shed connection. But the house is proving difficult. Timber trusses and Battens.

   not having a shot but collared eye bolt is the correct term and its a must that they seat on the collar or they are not bearing the load corectley :Wink:  Cheers Gav

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## adam.baxter

> It looks deficient for bracing & the way you said it wobbled is a good indicator that it is.
> regards inter

  How would you rectify it? 
Adam.

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## intertd6

> How would you rectify it? 
> Adam.

   You need to get engage an engineer, just about everything in that roof & post structure is outside the scope of AS1684 for bracing.
regards inter

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## adam.baxter

So where do I stand if its been signed off by a certifier?

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## intertd6

> So where do I stand if its been signed off by a certifier?

  probably beside him in court if it flys through the air down the street & kills or injures someone badly. Your the builder & responsible too.
regards inter

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## ringtail

Inter, I've done heaps of skillion flyovers exactly the same way, some with bracing screens, some without. I've never involved or been asked to involve a engineer for any of them. The certifiers have never had a problem with anything relating to tie down or bracing or anything else come to think of it. I have 3 skillion flyovers on my own house and believe me, if they go there will be nothing left of the house or anyone else's house anyway. On my house I fabbed up the columns from 75 x 75 x 5 RHS with sole plates to suit their position on the top plate (hardwood). 2 x M12 bolts through the top plate and 1 through the adjacent rafter. Extremely standard way of doing flyovers and I've never seen them done any other way. I can't speak for Adam's roof as I haven't seen it in person but mine are so ridiculously over engineered it aint funny. They ( and I would be confident of Adam's too) aint going anywhere. Picture is of a customers house.

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## intertd6

> Inter, I've done heaps of skillion flyovers exactly the same way, some with bracing screens, some without. I've never involved or been asked to involve a engineer for any of them. The certifiers have never had a problem with anything relating to tie down or bracing or anything else come to think of it. I have 3 skillion flyovers on my own house and believe me, if they go there will be nothing left of the house or anyone else's house anyway. On my house I fabbed up the columns from 75 x 75 x 5 RHS with sole plates to suit their position on the top plate (hardwood). 2 x M12 bolts through the top plate and 1 through the adjacent rafter. Extremely standard way of doing flyovers and I've never seen them done any other way. I can't speak for Adam's roof as I haven't seen it in person but mine are so ridiculously over engineered it aint funny. They ( and I would be confident of Adam's too) aint going anywhere. Picture is of a customers house.

  There probably are thousands of structures like that, doesn't necessarily make it ok though, just a simple test is how would you resist the wind loads on the structure when there is no bracing present to resist those loads? with those short supports coming off the house structure it has created some joints which can articulate, how does one calculate the forces to resist that articulation?  it is outside the scope of the standard, full stop. Those structures would flex, wobble & not be static like a timber structure should be like, which is absolutely static.
Im not qualified to design structures outside the standard so I would be looking for an engineers design on structures like this.
regards inter

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## ringtail

I dont quite understand what you mean. How is the structure going to articulate ? Tie down is taken care of, racking is taken care of with cross bracing. Those extenda brackets, even the pissy little ones come with a engineers certificate and they are adjustable for height - so unlike a fabbed column they could potentially have a moment if the lock nut is not tight, but they still cant go anywhere. Timber structures are not absolutely static though. Roof trusses move and flex like a mother in storms. Dont forget, the handrails provide substantial bracing too

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## intertd6

> I dont quite understand what you mean. How is the structure going to articulate ? Tie down is taken care of, racking is taken care of with cross bracing. Those extenda brackets, even the pissy little ones come with a engineers certificate and they are adjustable for height - so unlike a fabbed column they could potentially have a moment if the lock nut is not tight, but they still cant go anywhere. Timber structures are not absolutely static though. Roof trusses move and flex like a mother in storms. Dont forget, the handrails provide substantial bracing too

  Ill put it to you another way, imagine you have built a covered roof over a deck with long timber posts of equal length bolted to the joists, now with roof plane braced the structure & no other bracing that structure would be very unstable & wobble easily as it is relying on just the bolts at each end of the posts to resist racking from lateral forces, the joint between the rafters & the beams has no resistance to any other forces other than uplift. Now when you shorten one side of the structures posts ( roof plane remaining the same level) the instability will reduce to nothing until the post is reduced in length of zero at which time the roof is coupled to the main roof then its design is covered by the standard.		
Regards inter

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## ringtail

> . Now when you *shorten one side of the structures posts the instability will reduce* to nothing until the post is reduced in length of zero at which time the roof is coupled to the main roof then its design is covered by the standard.
> Regards inter

  Isn't that in effect what is happening here and with all flyovers - long posts and short posts ? Dont forget the bracing of a 2 bolt joint at post to roof beam and of course the handrails.

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## intertd6

> Isn't that in effect what is happening here and with all flyovers - long posts and short posts ? Dont forget the bracing of a 2 bolt joint at post to roof beam and of course the handrails.

  There is no long post short post scenario in the standard. As a builder you have to produce calculations to prove that the structure will resist all the probable common forces imposed on the structure, if you can't then you engage an engineer or someone that can , as far as I know there is no wind resistance data tables for bolting through beams or handrails in the standard.
regards inter

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## ringtail

I get your point inter but its the certifier that approves the plans and issues the final. If the certifier doesn't want a engineer then who are we to argue. Its a tried and proven method at least in Brisbane and north to Rocky. I really dont think there is any issue what so ever with the design or construction method until you hit Townsville or north and even then it would be the same design but maybe using full height 100 x 100 steel posts. Every veranda I build uses full height posts with only the intermediate handrail posts been bolted to joists. I don't agree with bolting roof posts to joists unless there is no other way, but I've never done it.

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## intertd6

> I get your point inter but its the certifier that approves the plans and issues the final. If the certifier doesn't want a engineer then who are we to argue. Its a tried and proven method at least in Brisbane and north to Rocky. I really dont think there is any issue what so ever with the design or construction method until you hit Townsville or north and even then it would be the same design but maybe using full height 100 x 100 steel posts. Every veranda I build uses full height posts with only the intermediate handrail posts been bolted to joists. I don't agree with bolting roof posts to joists unless there is no other way, but I've never done it.

  With what has happened with certification with dodgy structures lately you only have to remember that if something fails & the worst happens you will be in the deepest most expensive poo you could ever imagine. Regards inter

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## ringtail

> With what has happened with certification with dodgy structures lately you only have to remember that if something fails & the worst happens you will be in the deepest most expensive poo you could ever imagine. Regards inter

  
Someone might be but it wouldn't be the builder or OB. Whoever approves the plans and issues the final is most in the firing line. As long as its built to plan its down to whoever approved the plan to make sure it's fit for purpose. If the certifier is in doubt they ask for a engineers form 15. After all, a certifier is meant to assess the plans and inspect the structure not just shuffle papers. However, in reality, paper shuffling, collecting money and removing themselves from as responsibility as possible is their specialty.

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## intertd6

> Someone might be but it wouldn't be the builder or OB. Whoever approves the plans and issues the final is most in the firing line. As long as its built to plan its down to whoever approved the plan to make sure it's fit for purpose. If the certifier is in doubt they ask for a engineers form 15. After all, a certifier is meant to assess the plans and inspect the structure not just shuffle papers. However, in reality, paper shuffling, collecting money and removing themselves from as responsibility as possible is their specialty.

  With further tertiary training in building you could be even sent to sit in on court cases or research such cases, everybody involved would end up in court, the builder is usually first, the rest follow, no body can delegate their responsibilities, these things are very lengthy expensive undertakings, if some one is killed its a criminal matter in our state if its workplace negligence.
regards inter

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## ringtail

> With further tertiary training in building you could be even sent to sit in on court cases or research such cases, everybody involved would end up in court, the builder is usually first, the rest follow, no body can delegate their responsibilities, these things are very lengthy expensive undertakings, if some one is killed its a criminal matter in our state if its workplace negligence.
> regards inter

  
Yep agree. One big time consuming grey area. AFAIK no charges have been laid against anyone in relation to the fatal deck collapse in Brisbane. And the coronial inquiry is long over. I suspect it would come down to someone trying to prove that someone else did knowingly build a structure that was definitely going to fail under certain circumstances. Trying prove or replicate those circumstances is here say and purely academic and in all reality speculations are as close as anyone could get to proving their eventuality. I'm sure you have seen (as have I) many structures that defy the laws of physics and continue to stand. :Biggrin:  
However, back to the Adams' roof. If he is overly concerned with future litigation all he has to do is shift the responsibility onto a engineer and get a form 15. If he builds it to the form 15 and has the work inspected by said engineer he is 100 % in the clear. This is why liability insurance exists. Up to him to take the "risk". 
Adam - take photos of absolutely everything. Particularly all the fixings of structural elements like posts to top plate etc...

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## adam.baxter

Ringtail, 
i'm hoping for some advice on how to drill neat holes on the stair handrail posts... at 35deg. I tried freehand and failed  
I have a drill press so i'm thinking that is the best way and the way i should have gone the first time 
Cheers, 
Adam.

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## ringtail

Yep its a huge PITA to do in situ. I made a template out of 90 x 42 and drilled it on the drill press then clamped it to the handrail posts and used a long drill bit. Not perfect but did the job. I suspect one of those mobile drill press jobs would be the go but I'm yet to find a decent one at a decent price.

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## cas

Yeah use a template and a long series drill bit. I've used a left over bit of 50x50 aluminium post section, worked well. Mark your hole positions on either side of your post and come from both sides.

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## adam.baxter

Thanks all, ill let you know how i go  :Smilie:

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## adam.baxter

So i cut up a bit of 90x42 like you suggested alex and it worked great. drilled in from each side. 
the jig is wearing out after 1 post so i'll make another one easily for the second post... if i was doing this full time i'd make a metal insert

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## ringtail

Excellent. I reckon a metal insert is the go

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## adam.baxter

Finished product

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## Uncle Bob

Looks great. Job well done mate.

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## ringtail

Sweet mate. :2thumbsup:

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## shauck

Neat job. Very nice.

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## trenta

> Hi, 
> Main beam is inplace and the rafters and other beam are up on the deck waiting to be installed. I was thinking of giving the LVL's a light sand and coat with oil or water based decking stain.. thoughts? should i just get a cheap brand i.e. cabots to do the rafters? and not such a dark color 
> also.. i was just at bunnings and noticed that feast watson have water based and oil based decking oil/stain.... which is easier to administer? i was tending towards oil... 
> Cheers, 
> Adam.

   Hi Adam 
You may of mentioned earlier but what size beams did you use at the ends? Also what is the distance between the two posts that the main beam sits on? Trying to do something similar. 
Thanks!

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## adam.baxter

Hi Trent, 
the main beam supporting the roof is a 245x65 21C laminated hardwood beam. and the span between the posts is around 5800. overhand of around 700 on each end. 
Cheers, 
Adam.

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## trenta

> Hi Trent, 
> the main beam supporting the roof is a 245x65 21C laminated hardwood beam. and the span between the posts is around 5800. overhand of around 700 on each end. 
> Cheers, 
> Adam.

   The distance for mine would be around 4000. With similar overhang. Would a 240 X 45 F5 work?

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## adam.baxter

Need to know the length of your rafters to calculate the size of the beam.

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## trenta

> Need to know the length of your rafters to calculate the size of the beam.

   Approximately 3800

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## adam.baxter

Better off using an LVL, just make sure its protected using a good sealer from the weather...  http://www.chhwoodproducts.com.au/Us...28pp-Sep11.pdf 
Roof load width of 2M which is half of the rafter span and 20kg per 1/m2 roof mass which is ok for sheet roofing.. not tiled 
200x45 will span 4000
200x63 will span 4300
240x45 will span 4700 
Cheers, 
Adam.

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## trenta

> Better off using an LVL, just make sure its protected using a good sealer from the weather...  http://www.chhwoodproducts.com.au/Us...28pp-Sep11.pdf 
> Roof load width of 2M which is half of the rafter span and 20kg per 1/m2 roof mass which is ok for sheet roofing.. not tiled 
> 200x45 will span 4000
> 200x63 will span 4300
> 240x45 will span 4700 
> Cheers, 
> Adam.

   What's LVL..... dumb question I know

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## shauck

> What's LVL..... dumb question I know

  LVL is laminated veneer lumber an example in pic below. It's dimensionally pretty stable, lighter and a bit cheaper than natural timber of similar rating (roughly comparable to F17). Has it's own span tables, put out by companies that make it. Good if you are painting it but not if you want to see natural timber finishes. Needs to be really well protected in outdoor situation as it's not really designed for it. Others will know more about it than me but I would prefer real timber if possible/practical, in outdoor situation.

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## ringtail

I reckon LVL's for verandah roof framing are just about the perfect solution. Light, strong, true and stable, 13 mt lengths +H3 to boot.

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## adam.baxter

On another note. I finished the deck and the final inspection got approved. 
I'll put up some good pictures soon

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## shauck

Awesome. Way to go.

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## slowboat

so what happened to the final pictures? 
spent half my evening going through this thread to be left hanging in limbo.... 
BTW the extra bracing is definitely required on the roof frame in both directions on the posts as intertd6 said.

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## phild01

> BTW the extra bracing is definitely required on the roof frame in both directions on the posts as intertd6 said.

  +1 Agree. 
Just read some comments about the roof bracing.  Why tensioned flat brace and not speed brace!

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## ringtail

Because speed brace is bollocks. Well, not really. It's FFP but looks ugly in an exposed application and it can't be tensioned.

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## r3nov8or

From Gang Nail install guide  

> Speedbrace offers many advantages over other bracing systems.
>  Applied to top of top chord  speed and simplicity.
>  *Pre-tension  no turnbuckles or similar device is required to tension the brace.*
>  Maximum load is governed by end fixing and splicing which are to be made strictly in accordance with details shown in this publication.
>  Pre-punched  nailing made quick and easy with special 30 x 2.8 galvanized reinforced head nails.
>  Uniform strength  assured performance.
>  Side by side splicing for easy layout and fixing.
>  Positive end fixing  wrap around at apex, splice and frame.

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## adam.baxter

What is wrong with tensioned flat? 
it does the job

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## adam.baxter

Here are some photos... 
Made a daybed too!

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## ringtail

> What is wrong with tensioned flat? 
> it does the job

  Absolutely nothing at all. IMO it's better because it's neater and looks more professional - and it can be tensioned. Looking at the blurb above, speed and simplicity are the selling points. As always, some will go for the fastest, cheapest option. Speed brace has its place and its on top of trusses hidden in the roof space.

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## r3nov8or

> What is wrong with tensioned flat? 
> it does the job

   Nothing at all wrong with it. 
Ringtail keeps mentioning that tensioning is a big plus for flat, twice now. My point, and Gang Nails', is that speedbrace does not need tensioning.

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## r3nov8or

And, yeah, Adam, you've done a great job and created a great space.

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## ringtail

Pics look great mate. Good to see the roof hasn't rotated off yet :Tongue:

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## shauck

Looks fabulous. Worthy of great pride.

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## phild01

> Because speed brace is bollocks. Well, not really. It's FFP but looks ugly in an exposed application and it can't be tensioned.

  ... needs no tensioning.  Always looks straight and consistent.

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## ringtail

Have to disagree there. I've seen some bloody awful speed brace installations. OK if in a roof cavity but certainly not for exposed applications. And it can't be tensioned. :Tongue:

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## phild01

> Have to disagree there. I've seen some bloody awful speed brace installations. OK if in a roof cavity but certainly not for exposed applications. And it can't be tensioned.

  It can't be tensioned because it is not meant to be. It works because of it's rigidity.  Flat brace can end up floppy even after tensioning.  The strap needs fixing on each joist so cannot be retensioned.
Personally I could go with either system.  The only drawback to speedbrace is it comes in fixed lengths and the overlaps aren't are good look.  I think horses for courses.

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## ringtail

I know I know just s**t stirring. :Tongue:  
PS, strap can be tensioned anytime, nailed off or not simply by using a tensioner. Speed brace, if kinked is next to useless. And like you said, fixed lengths. Joins are butt ugly. Best hidden me thinks.

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## phild01

> I know I know just s**t stirring.

  See that now, bit slow sometimes :Blush7:

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## ringtail

:Tongue:

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## slowboat

Thanks for the Pics Adam, looks awesome. 
I think the bracing discussion is going off track a bit however. 
I'm not an engineer but I have designed lots of structures,  
IMHO the horizontal bracing in the roof is not doing anything once the sheeting is in place!
Engineers insist on it because they don't want the hassle of calculating the side force on the tek screws... 
More importantly the "walls" need have bracing because the roof is sitting on vertical posts. 
I see Adam has a knee brace on the outside left corner, if there were similar braces on the outside bearer beam it would be fine. 
When the roof is fixed to the wall the house will brace it. but the flyover doesn't work like that, effectively its a free standing pergola.

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## ringtail

Ummmmm, I think you'll find that "knee brace" is in fact a downpipe.

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## intertd6

> Ummmmm, I think you'll find that "knee brace" is in fact a downpipe.

  Yes but it is bracing it in a fashion & it's the only lateral brace it has.
regards inter

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## phild01

I want to consider one of these small flyover type things more as a protective awning.  The bracing has me spooked a bit as I am designing for N4.  However I am very interested in what is the most effective flash booting for a tiled roof. Not trying to keep things offtrack but wondering how this one was done.

----------


## intertd6

> I want to consider one of these small flyover type things more as a protective awning.  The bracing has me spooked a bit as I am designing for N4.  However I am very interested in what is the most effective flash booting for a tiled roof. Not trying to keep things offtrack but wondering how this one was done.

  No need to worry about the bracing, as these structures are outside the scope of the standard an engineer will find a design solution for the bracing along the lines of steel posts all around, knee braces or diagonal cross bracing, maybe you should post this in the plumbing section for a different perspective of the suitable flashing on the posts on a tiled roof.
regards inter

----------


## phild01

> No need to worry about the bracing, as these structures are outside the scope of the standard an engineer will find a design solution for the bracing along the lines of steel posts all around, knee braces or diagonal cross bracing, maybe you should post this in the plumbing section for a different perspective of the suitable flashing on the posts on a tiled roof.
> regards inter

  Bracing aside, I think I know the recommendation the plumbers will tell me about and I forget what they are called, Bunnings sell them though and is the only thing I am aware of.  I do know of stirrups being used upside down.  That is a small diameter to flash and I am interested in how this project was done (not sure if it was outlined but there is fair bit of reading here).

----------


## ringtail

The flashings are dead easy. Good plumber supplies will have a catalogue of flashings. I've used ones with a 300 mm square base ( rubber coated ally)  but these were a bit OTT. The ones that come with the roof extends posts are fine for tiles or tin. Some careful measuring and tile cutting will see only a small hole. I drill the tile and use green or red plugs and gal button head screws for tiles- along with copious amounts of sika 11fc smoothed nicely with turps. For tin roofs I use blind pop rivets and sika. Again, if using the roof extendas  don't go with the standard ones. The S300's and up are considerably beefier. You will have to order them from a builders hardware.

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## ringtail

Don't sweat the bracing either. Strap the roof, privacy screen one end and use good wide hardwood handrails. Easy as.

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## slowboat

> Ummmmm, I think you'll find that "knee brace" is in fact a downpipe.

  
oops, better get new glasses.

----------


## ringtail

:Wink:

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## intertd6

> Don't sweat the bracing either. Strap the roof, privacy screen one end and use good wide hardwood handrails. Easy as.

  And you wonder why a certain certifiers are being nailed for deficiencies, this is a prime example of a structure with insufficient lateral wind bracing, I am at a loss as how anybody could pass a free standing structure without the relevant calculations of wind loads & the means of resisting those loads by some bracing method with the resistance calculations of those methods, from what I have seen in literature for roof extension type brackets there are only calculations for uplift forces only & have no reference to bracing at all.
when I was a carpenter with only trade training I didn't know what is was doing also.
regards inter

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## ringtail

What are you implying inter ? Hopefully not that I or every other carpenter or builder on this site doesn't know what they're doing ? Or every drafty or designer that has designed said structures ? I think you need a reality check. Uplift is of far more importance on a skillion roof than lateral wind load FFS.  The roof section is thin therefore offers little in lateral load capability. The fact that it is attached to the house at one end, all be it on posts, and to posts at the other end which are being braced laterally by handrail and balustrade and in most circumstances a privacy screen at one edge perpendicular to the handrail, plus diagonal strap all suggests that the bracing is more than adequate for the wind load that maybe be expected to act on the SIDE of 200 mm deep roof section.

----------


## shauck

> What are you implying inter ? Hopefully not that I or every other carpenter or builder on this site doesn't know what they're doing ? Or every drafty or designer that has designed said structures ? I think you need a reality check. Uplift is of far more importance on a skillion roof than lateral wind load FFS.  The roof section is thin therefore offers little in lateral load capability. The fact that it is attached to the house at one end, all be it on posts, and to posts at the other end which are being braced laterally by handrail and balustrade and in most circumstances a privacy screen at one edge perpendicular to the handrail, plus diagonal strap all suggests that the bracing is more than adequate for the wind load that maybe be expected to act on the SIDE of 200 mm deep roof section.

  Agree. My verandah is very similarly built and in the recent crazy winds we had during that heat wave the other week, we had a massive amount of debris to pick up from the trees on our porperty. Two huge burnpiles. More than I've ever seen so far. I didn't hear a squeak out of the verandah.

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## intertd6

> What are you implying inter ? Hopefully not that I or every other carpenter or builder on this site doesn't know what they're doing ? Or every drafty or designer that has designed said structures ? I think you need a reality check. Uplift is of far more importance on a skillion roof than lateral wind load FFS.  The roof section is thin therefore offers little in lateral load capability. The fact that it is attached to the house at one end, all be it on posts, and to posts at the other end which are being braced laterally by handrail and balustrade and in most circumstances a privacy screen at one edge perpendicular to the handrail, plus diagonal strap all suggests that the bracing is more than adequate for the wind load that maybe be expected to act on the SIDE of 200 mm deep roof section.

  It seems you have never had to calculate wind loads on a structure then provide bracing to resist those loads, I say that because of your last couple of sentences, wind loads on a roof are taken from the lowest point to the highest point on 2 elevations, then with the widths these form rectangular or triangular elevation areas to which wind pressure can be applied to calculate the loads imposed on the structure from either wind direction, from the standard a method is selected with pre-calculated resistance tables to resist the wind loads, also the bracing has to be evenly distributed, so it can't be all on one side, last time I looked there were no resistance tables for handrails or privacy screens. But what sets these flyover roof structures apart is I believe they are outside the scope of the standard bracing wise so the bracing should be designed by an engineer.
untill there is a cyclone or similar comes through & wipes out a lot these types of uncoupled unbraced structures nothing will probably will happen about them in the meantime.
 A lot of people out there don't know what they are doing & I was once well & truly one of them.
regards inter

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## ringtail

You're right, I haven't had to calculate the wind loads. Its not my job. I'll build whatever it says on the plans.  
So if  I understand , take four posts with say 7 degrees difference between front and back. Then measure from top to bottom on the front ( lowest) two and the side two to create the hypothetical wind load area ? I don't understand how the lateral wind load can be calculated using a mythical rectangle or other shape With a skillion flyover. I guess uplift and negative pressure can be calculated easy enough but I think it draws a long bow to apply the same method to a skillion roof for lateral loads. I dunno. 
As far as bracing goes, it doesn't have to distributed evenly. Its quite common to only strap a number of roof rafters in a skillion as the bracing transfers to the rest via the battens tin. Same with floor joists. 
As far as the cyclones go, it would be interesting to see some stats from around Cairns. I know that everything I've personally built has survived ex cyclones, east coast lows, severe thunderstorms etc... without batting an eyelid.

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## intertd6

> You're right, I haven't had to calculate the wind loads. Its not my job. I'll build whatever it says on the plans.   Somebody has to provide certifier or certifying authority ALL the structural design details which satisfies the standard, or if outside the scope of the standard an engineers certification.  
> So if  I understand , take four posts with say 7 degrees difference between front and back. Then measure from top to bottom on the front ( lowest) two and the side two to create the hypothetical wind load area ? I don't understand how the lateral wind load can be calculated using a mythical rectangle or other shape With a skillion flyover. I guess uplift and negative pressure can be calculated easy enough but I think it draws a long bow to apply the same method to a skillion roof for lateral loads. I dunno.  Thats the closest the standard comes to describing the end elevation area of a coupled verandah roof. I didn't see a flyover roof described in the scope of the standard   
> As far as bracing goes, it doesn't have to distributed evenly. Its quite common to only strap a number of roof rafters in a skillion as the bracing transfers to the rest via the battens tin. Same with floor joists.p  You not thinking of lateral bracing, Of which the bracing has to be evenly distributed. Your thinking of roof & floor bracing  
> As far as the cyclones go, it would be interesting to see some stats from around Cairns. I know that everything I've personally built has survived ex cyclones, east coast lows, severe thunderstorms etc... without batting an eyelid.  One of the times the standard was reviewed after a natural disaster was the severe weather event that destroyed structures in nelsons bay NSW & cyclone Winifred FNQ caused cyclone ratings to be revised a while before that.
> its been a while since a cyclone or severe weather event has hit sthn QLD & in the time these type of structures have become popular.

   Regards inter

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## ringtail

It's only a year since Oswald came through. Apart from this storm season been really crap for decent storms, there have been plenty of cyclonic strength storms come through SE QLD in the last 5 years or so. The gap storms probably the most notable. Severe Thunderstorms in Southeast Queensland 16th &ndash; 20th November 2008

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## ringtail

> Yes but it is bracing it in a fashion & it's the only lateral brace it has.
> regards inter

  Inter, 
Missed this one. Disregarding the "structural" downpipe, how is the privacy screen behind the downpipe not counted as lateral bracing ? 
And if the posts were full height would you have the same concerns ? 
And a different scenario. The very first flyover I did was as an OB on my own house. It covers a deck that  fills in an internal (exterior obviously) corner of the house. Its large at nearly 7x7. I put a 300 x75 intermediate beam in which is on a fabbed column at the house end ( top plate fixed etc...) and a full height  post at the other. Does having the centre bearer make any difference in your view ?  Forgetting that it also has 16 mm rod and turnbuckles on the columns at the house end and the same on the outer line of posts.

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## intertd6

> Inter, 
> Missed this one. Disregarding the "structural" downpipe, how is the privacy screen behind the downpipe not counted as lateral bracing ?  Because it doesn't come under the description of sheet or diagonal bracing & has no resistance capability recognised in the standard 
> And if the posts were full height would you have the same concerns ?  either way 
> And a different scenario. The very first flyover I did was as an OB on my own house. It covers a deck that  fills in an internal (exterior obviously) corner of the house. Its large at nearly 7x7. I put a 300 x75 intermediate beam in which is on a fabbed column at the house end ( top plate fixed etc...) and a full height  post at the other. Does having the centre bearer make any difference in your view ?  Forgetting that it also has 16 mm rod and turnbuckles on the columns at the house end and the same on the outer line of posts  I can't picture that so I can't say, to put this into perspective, one of those flyover structures with no lateral bracing could be destroyed in a short time buy a few decent sized blokes rocking the posts back & forth, once a oscillation started it could be increased untill it pulled joints apart & split the structural materials. It fails the simple law of statics 
> .

  regards inter

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## ringtail

Oh OK. So it's not a matter of a privacy screen not providing adequate bracing. Just that privacy screens aren't in the bracing bible so they can't possibly do the job. I get it now. 
Its also a good thing that cyclones and storms don't contain burley blokes or harmonics eh.

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## intertd6

> Oh OK. So it's not a matter of a privacy screen not providing adequate bracing. Just that privacy screens aren't in the bracing bible so they can't possibly do the job. I get it now. 
> Its also a good thing that cyclones and storms don't contain burley blokes or harmonics eh.

  a storm or cyclone has sometimes thousands of burly things called wind gusts.
when I was an apprentice doing demolition we used to take out the braces of a structure then wobble it untill it collapsed, the same method used to be used in industrial demolition where the mass of the structure is used to collapse it once the bracing components are removed.  
regards inter

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## ringtail

True but they are gusts, not the rhythmic harmonics necessary to pulse a structure to demolish itself.

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## intertd6

> True but they are gusts, not the rhythmic harmonics necessary to pulse a structure to demolish itself.

  as well the gusts on the pressure side of the structure,  turbulence behind a structure can sometimes cause a rhythmic change in air pressure starting up a harmonic reaction in a structure, especially thin structures.
regards inter

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## phild01

Tacoma.

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## ringtail

I wonder, and I'm speculating here, if the designers of these structures have had the "concept"  run past an engineer ? The ones I have built on my own house haven't but every one for a customer has been designed by a licenced architect, drafty or designer and none have specified any extra bracing. I've had one ( the photo in this thread) that specified a knee brace at the outer post to deck bearer junction and I added strap bracing under the deck joists. Apart from that, nothing. And not even a raised eyebrow from any certifier. Interesting.

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## ringtail

> Tacoma.

  Yep, that's crazy. Been ages since I've watched the footage of that.

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## phild01

> Yep, that's crazy. Been ages since I've watched the footage of that.

  It was apparently designed to withstand high winds of 120mph but a 40 odd mph gale finally brought it down.  It was a massive structure of slender design and it seems the designers didn't consider resonance.  It seems a structure needs to be an extraordinarily large, open and flexible design before a harmonic can create an issue.  Maybe a bit of wind tunnel testing might resolve any doubts.

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## intertd6

> I wonder, and I'm speculating here, if the designers of these structures have had the "concept"  run past an engineer ? The ones I have built on my own house haven't but every one for a customer has been designed by a licenced architect, drafty or designer and none have specified any extra bracing. I've had one ( the photo in this thread) that specified a knee brace at the outer post to deck bearer junction and I added strap bracing under the deck joists. Apart from that, nothing. And not even a raised eyebrow from any certifier. Interesting.

  I just had another check through AS1684.2  2010 and bracing for racking forces for these flyover roof structures are not included in the design scope of the standard. Therefore they should be designed by an engineer,  I can't comment on what you say is or has happened with the design  and approval of these structures, but what should happen, any certifier or certifying organisation who approves structures without the relevant information on the structural integrity of that structure leaves themselves wide open if they ever fail. 
regards inter

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## ringtail

Re the bridge, having a read it was the narrowness, light weight and slab side of the gider yhat caught the wind. Looking at the revised design a web structure has been used. 
With the roof bit, that's what I was pondering. If these designers have run the concept past an engineer then maybe there is no need for any other documentation. I still can't see how a flyover skillion with a bracing screen that goes from the outer posts back to the house can rotate off. For the roof beam on the short posts or the short posts themselves to fail, the outer roof beam has to rotate too. So if the outer roof beam is attached to the posts with 2x M12 's and the corner post is braced back to the house via a decent screen how can it happen?  If there was a screen on both sides I would say it could never happen. One side extremely unlikely to happen - as evidenced by the fact that it has not happened, yet.

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## intertd6

> Re the bridge, having a read it was the narrowness, light weight and slab side of the gider yhat caught the wind. Looking at the revised design a web structure has been used. 
> With the roof bit, that's what I was pondering. If these designers have run the concept past an engineer then maybe there is no need for any other documentation. I still can't see how a flyover skillion with a bracing screen that goes from the outer posts back to the house can rotate off. For the roof beam on the short posts or the short posts themselves to fail, the outer roof beam has to rotate too. So if the outer roof beam is attached to the posts with 2x M12 's and the corner post is braced back to the house via a decent screen how can it happen?  If there was a screen on both sides I would say it could never happen. One side extremely unlikely to happen - as evidenced by the fact that it has not happened, yet.

  you don't have to look that far to find structures that are affected by wind turbulence, it is quite common to see industrial stacks with a spiral rail on their outside face, this disrupts the airflow & prevents eddies forming downwind which can start rhythmic oscillation of the structure.
 I don't know how to explain about the need for bracing in a structure any further, or maybe I'm not a good explainer, you seem to be trying to justify why bracing isn't needed when it is one of the most important components for structural integrity, maybe you could talk to a structural engineer to enlighten you on it.
regards inter

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## ringtail

No inter, I understand bracing just fine. You're the one that insists these structures are unsound yet you can't
(a) prove it because its outside of your text book definitions and
(b) you obviously can't find any accounts of one of these structures failing.  
No doubt you have googled the bollocks out of the subject and come up with zip. Perhaps you should talk to a structural engineer and together you can beaver away and get the standard changed. 
I'm not saying the bracing of these structures is perfect but its obviously adequate or they would have failed a long time ago.

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## DuckCommander

This is beyond the scope of AS1684. Canopies and awnings are covered in AS1170.2 Structural Design Actions Part 2: Wind Actions, under Appendix D. For lateral forces the attributable load is from roof depth area and frictional drag across both roof and soffit. 
To me flyover roofs are a bit of a grey area and an engineer designed structure would call for a bit more. As already stated the roof extenders are certified for uplift and nothing else.  
For the system to work without additional cross bracing it would be designed as the outer posts cantilevered from the deck height, but they need a full moment resisting connection at deck level or be continuous from footing and the roof extenders need to be fully fixed (moment resisting) top and bottom.  
The balustrade and privacy screen provide a small amount of stiffness but cannot be relied upon for structural purposes unless specifically designed for it. For example the balustrade along the front of the deck and the post connections at floor level would need connections to fully resist rotation and a two bolt connection does not provide that (it would need to act like a portal frame). The privacy screen does not work as a diaphragm as it is currently built.   
Sanity check  At the end of the day the lateral forces on your roof are small. Even so, itd pay to check with an engineer, whod likely ask for a little bit more. It is certified by a certifier, but where by the off chance something did happen, the blame game might point in an unwanted direction? (Ive no idea how this would pan out). 
Ive got my own deck build coming up (maybe within the next 10 years.) and Ive looked at the roof extenders. If I was going that way Id be putting braces to them back down to the top plate. My front posts would be footing to roof height, braced by the floor framing and cantilevering above (steel 100x100+). This would provide ridiculous distributed capacity for all wind directions. Id do the numbers for sake of documentation but I know from experience Id be in front. 
All that said Adam Im not criticising you, Ive thoroughly enjoyed following your thread and think youve done a great job constructing your deck.  A valid point has been raised and the deficiency doesnt stem from you at all. I believe its from a grey area in the industry caused from engineer certified products causing the deviation from traditional construction methods without the right questions being asked to the right people. Its not uncommon. Not a lot of certifiers have an engineering background and probably extrapolate accepted building methods and standards when confronted with something other than the norm. Once its been done that way it sets a precedence.  
On another note, slowboat mentioned that the roof cross bracing isnt doing anything once the sheeting is on isnt true. The roof sheeting isnt a good diaphragm material and buckles easily. Ive seen a structure without sufficient bracing which relied on the sheeting as a diaphragm and the sheeting had buckled at EVERY screw location when the whole structure racked under a high wind load. The cross bracing will attract the load and send it on its merry way to the footings.

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## ringtail

Well said.

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## DuckCommander

For my own curiosity and future deck build I've looked over some of the other pics of the connections etc and pulled out some standards and the calculator. I made a few arsesumptions of spans, distances etc and run a few numbers. It doesn't look too bad actually due to the lateral loads being quite low. The stresses in the connections (based on my guesstimations) don't appear to be a huge concern. Bolting posts to the joists is a good move and helps as does having four roof extenders. BTW are these 75SHS with 2M12's into the top plate? This is the part where I say don't listen to anything I say and don't substitute what I've said for that of an engaged engineer! My arsesumptions may not represent construction and site condition. 
I don't think the roof is going to cartwheel off your deck anytime soon but I think it's still prudent to have someone check the connections. As a minimum if it were my deck based on my assumptions I'd strengthen the connections by adding knee braces to tops of posts, end roof extenders and stiffen outside post connections by blocking out joists. This will also minimise structure movement through connections while taking up load... Your deck might start swinging about... But again, don't take that as complete and relevant advice!

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## intertd6

> No inter, I understand bracing just fine. You're the one that insists these structures are unsound yet you can't
> (a) prove it because its outside of your text book definitions and
> (b) you obviously can't find any accounts of one of these structures failing.  
> No doubt you have googled the bollocks out of the subject and come up with zip. Perhaps you should talk to a structural engineer and together you can beaver away and get the standard changed. 
> I'm not saying the bracing of these structures is perfect but its obviously adequate or they would have failed a long time ago.

  Your saying that in your experience that these type of structures you have been involved in have no engineering design, I have built maybe 3 or 4 of these & they all had been designed by an engineer & when i drive down the street & see structures like this some have visible bracing elements & some don't. duck commander summed up the standard designed bracing methods of them, he has obviously a higher learning in the design of these structures with working knowledge of using AS1170 which is for engineers & technicians to reference loadings for design of structures, which is beyond the scope of design of the framing standard which carpenters & builders are allowed to use for design. 
(a) as a builders you & i have to prove to the authorities that the structures that we build are capable of withstanding all the probable forces imposed on them, rule of thumb or guesstimates or jo blow is doing it are a thing of the past, call it risk management, i can tell you now if a structure goes A over apex & kills somebody I don't want to be in & out of court over a couple of years with a barrister beside me costing 3-5K an hour or more trying to clear me of any negligence, ignorance of the law is no defence. So when a structure falls outside the relevant standards you cover your *rse, besides all that, I couldn't knowingly build anything that had no bracing, could possible fail & hurt or kill someone. 
(b)I haven't looked & don't have to, my experience & training tells me when i see a structure with no visible bracing components there is a real possibility of failure.
i'm saying there is no bracing & Im not the only one.
most good tradesmen will give a structure a shake or wobble at certain stages to check how a structure feels, if it doesn't feel static enough, big questions are asked for checks & verification to be made for a safety check, mistakes & oversights are made & often enough it's the people at the coal face than notice when something isn't right, in some cases refusing to continue works until proven safe.
regards inter

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## ringtail

I have roof to do next week when I get back from holidays. A skillion of some description. I haven't seen the plans yet but I will ring the designer and ask if there is any engineering required. As the designer it's his responsibility to ensure it complies. A few plans I've seen have been light on detail and state " to comply with ......" If this is the case I shall ask the designer to get them engineered.

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## adam.baxter

The 4 posts are are these 75SHS with 2M12's into the top plate 
If i was going to do it again. I would have welded some flat, perpendicular to the upright posts and bolted through to the roof Rafters on the House aswell as the 2xM12 into the top plate. 
I was also thinking if i was paranoida about uplift i would run some threaded rod with a joiner from under the m12 bolts down to the bottom plate.

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## adam.baxter

Photo of one of the roof posts, this one had one of its holes over a stud so i used 2x 100mm batten screws as coach screws are 100% garbage

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