# Forum More Stuff Owner Builders Forum  Builder to Lockup in Perth

## DenisPC9

Evening all 
Are there any GOOD Builders who will build (to Plan) to Lockup in Perth? 
I ask in this manner because a friend, female, is getting nowhere with either Designers or Builders.   
The Designers being thoroughly briefed, then just go about doing their own thing.  It didn't matter that she saw them several times with clearly written instructions and diagrams, their submissions, generally had from a rough guess at what she had asked for to nothing like it.  She had gone through 3 of them (rather 3 of them had taken here for a ride) until she finally heard what I was telling her, that she knew exactly what she wanted so why ask someone.  Anyways that's now done. 
As for Builders she has approached, they have either refused outright, fair enough, as its their work model; or spun phenomenal lines about what she couldn't have, none structural or other lines.   
In the meantime  I have planned, sourced, built my own, myself and have moved in to my house a couple of years ago. 
So back to my original Q 
Are there any GOOD Builders who will build (to Plan) to Lockup in Perth? 
Thanks
Denis

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## OBBob

Hi Denis. I can't help specifically but is it a particularly different design? Does WA still have that crazy housing demand and shortage of trades people?

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## DenisPC9

> Hi Denis. I can't help specifically but is it a particularly different design? Does WA still have that crazy housing demand and shortage of trades people?

  Nope, its a fairly straightforward design constructed from standard WA stuff.  I have just built here in New England NSW from ICFs and suggested that but the Builder she was talking to at the time apparently threw up his hands in horror. 
Although, having lived in WA on and off for approx 15 years, I found the residential builders an extremely conservative mob.  Most of them who I dealt with (all ~10 of them) didn't have any natural curiosity.  And when you mentioned Kevin Mcloud and Grand Designs, they either threw up their hands in disgust and horror or looked at you blankly.  Given that I left WA some 5 years ago and she is still experiencing roughly the same reactions, I don't think things have changed much. 
And Yes, I still think the State's economy is based around Perth real estate and residential housing, now that they have blown their Iron Ore bonanza.  I lived there during the boom years and never had any issue getting hold of tradies to do anything I needed doing.  I think that shortage of tradies was overblown and a grand excuse for either doing little, doing it badly or gouging the client. 
I also got the impression then that everyone thought that everyone else worked in the mines and earned $200k a year.  It was great fun to disabuse them of that notion.

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## David.Elliott

yep I'd have to agree...
I live here now, and you can have anything you want so long as it's what they want to build you. 
FIL was a builder. 
One of the challenges is that the project builders set pricing expectations with their prices.
Many years ago they were paying brickies 250/1000 as there was continual work. FIL managed to keep one team pretty much on the go at $450, as it was all reno/addition work, ie: more difficult.
Then there's the raw materials prices. The project guys buy bucketloads of stuff and so pay lots less...
So whilst he could build a home to plan, and most likely better than the project guys  the prices appeared expensive in relation to the "off the plan" stuff...
He was often approached for just what you are asking, after costing up the first two or so just said no. Folk though he was trying to rip 'em off... 
Neighbours are rebuilding a new, bigger place, around the corner...they were in a old WB&I two bedroom and want another rugrat... 
The dramas they went through to get something altered was unbelievable. It seems the "project" builders here have a set materials list for each house design. Woe betide anyone that wants that changed... 
Gouging...
Another mate built in Chestnuts here in Jarrahdale. The builder charged $5k on top for getting trades on site. He'd have to pay more he claimed... 
Plasterer two streets across, brickie 4 doors down, plumber next suburb, Serpentine, leccy next suburb the other side, Armadale, Chippy, Mundijong.
Mate called em out on it, they couldn't care less...thieves... 
How about getting one of the steel framed Kit guys on board? They _appear_ to have the opportunity to be more flexible and will supply built to lock up as a standard offering.
TR have been around a while, and I've seen their stuff in the display yard a while ago, seemed pretty good. But displays always are...

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## DenisPC9

[QUOTE=David.Elliott;970200]yep I'd have to agree...
I live here now, and you can have anything you want so long as it's what they want to build you. 
FIL was a builder.   _Is he still in the Business?_ 
How about getting one of the steel framed Kit guys on board? They _appear_ to have the opportunity to be more flexible and will supply built to lock up as a standard offering.
TR have been around a while, and I've seen their stuff in the display yard a while ago, seemed pretty good.  
She was talking about Kit Homes, due to a variety of reasons.  I may have to broach that one again, but she ain't against that.  As long as there is quality and presentation.  Do they do the "Digging through to China then filling the hole with concrete" thing too?

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## David.Elliott

[QUOTE=DenisPC9;970231]  

> yep I'd have to agree...
> I live here now, and you can have anything you want so long as it's what they want to build you. 
> FIL was a builder.   _Is he still in the Business? _ *Sadly no, we lost him to Mesothilioma (?)  5 years ago, at a very very young 63...* 
> How about getting one of the steel framed Kit guys on board? They _appear_ to have the opportunity to be more flexible and will supply built to lock up as a standard offering.
> TR have been around a while, and I've seen their stuff in the display yard a while ago, seemed pretty good.  
> She was talking about Kit Homes, due to a variety of reasons.  I may have to broach that one again, but she ain't against that.  As long as there is quality and presentation.  Do they do the "Digging through to China then filling the hole with concrete" thing too?

  *The TRs I have seen are in the yards, and are on stumps so they can sell 'em and move em... 
With the WA love of dbl brick the dig a hole thing has become the norm...not entirely sure why. Although in the neighbour thing above the land was not flat so there is, on the RHS of the house,  about 4ft of yellow sand. Also the place is littered with I'd bet BIG ungerground boulders... usually now they truck in sand, level it, compact it, trench the plumbing and footings, cast the footings, then the pad on top. Not much digging... 
My SWMBO and I laugh a bit though.  In Byford there is a new development underway.* Land for Sale in Byford | The Brook at Byford *We LOVE the imagery used. The one thing I can tell you is they are definitely selling the sizzle, not the sausage. Happy family on grass with trees in background. Only two things missing...grass and trees...oh, and a third, the Brook...
If I showed you all pics of this you'd wonder how they are not punished for telling big fat fibs...* *The land it's on has been very wet every winter since we moved here 15 years ago. 
So... the answer is, 5 courses of the big concrete blocks, I figure ~3mts of yellow sand dumped on top, so all the blocks are the same height, and level. And because of this there is not a tree in sight.  So we're not exactly sure what you are getting for the 149,000 ish that the 400m blocks are. Seems like 3 mts of yellow builders sand. Good luck growing anything there,,,They had to do a trap and move of the dozens of Kangaroos that hung out there too.*

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## toooldforthis

I have normally refrained from posts requesting tradies etc in Perth, because I can't offer any optimism I'm afraid. 
It seems to be a cultural thing born of the mining boom and 23 years of no recession.
and maybe the isolation breeding conservatism - as far the builders themselves go.
so I figure it is going to take a recession (and in Perth it is coming I think) to force a cultural change - there is a whole generation of tradies who know nothing but gouging. 
I too have had the architect/designer thing .where a written checklist of requirements was total ignored. The outcome - the architect said he was doubling his hourly rate cause the consultations were too difficult. w.t.f?
If your friend has a good idea of what she wants then I suggest she try a draughtsman/person to draw up the plans - however that doesn't get it built.
She could try owner/builder and engage the trades direct - not for the faint hearted; and not recommended here in Perth unless you have a list of contacts. 
sorry - can't help.
similar position myself

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## David.Elliott

In that vein I have a newish neighbour who is a Structural designer/Drafty. I have used him, for something not difficult, but required, and Richard was great... 
He's quite busy with one off house plans most of the time, you could do worse than find out who builds these that he designs... 
I'd be happy to share if he could be of assistance...

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## DenisPC9

> In that vein I have a newish neighbour who is a Structural designer/Drafty. I have used him, for something not difficult, but required, and Richard was great... 
> He's quite busy with one off house plans most of the time, you could do worse than find out who builds these that he designs... 
> I'd be happy to share if he could be of assistance...

  Thanks David, could you send his details privately and I will forward them to her along with your comment. 
@toooldforthis - "She could try owner/builder and engage the trades direct - not for the  faint hearted; and not recommended here in Perth unless you have a list  of contacts." 
If she did that I would be obliged to move back to assist.  And that is something that doesn't appeal to me.  I quickly built up a list of contact over here but they were prepared to listen and provide feedback.  Not just rubbish or denigrate any proposals or ideas, or jack the price up because they didn't understand it.

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## JB1

If she doesn't want to OB then why take over after lockup? 
I think taking over at lockup could be a minefield if there was an issue, i.e. plumbing waste laid incorrectly. Roof trusses etc.

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## DenisPC9

> If she doesn't want to OB then why take over after lockup? 
>  I think taking over at lockup could be a minefield if there was an issue, i.e. plumbing waste laid incorrectly. Roof trusses etc.

  She thinks that the technicalities of getting it to Lockup would be  too much.  But she feels confident she can handle the fitout stuff etc 
So you too, have a low opinions of Tradies being able to do as they contracted to and are paid for. ;-)  That issue also applies to using a Builder.  Cruising through these and other fora massively demonstrates what you have posted is a not uncommon issue. 
To nitpick, those issues you note, which are major ones, would be covered in the Build to Lockup stage.  Although to be fair, these too are issues raised by Builders who have been approached.  I would have thought that in these modern times, professional people would be able to adapt to different circumstances. 
And let's face it building to lockup isn't exactly cutting edge technology nor is it a new avenue for society.

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## JB1

I don't have a low opinion of all tradies. 
Some are great, some are terrible. Some are outright criminals. 
You're right, it should be easy, but in reality mistakes happen. My concern isn't that the builder to lock up won't fix their mistake (well that is a concern in itself) but in order to fix their error found 3 months later after the new tradies have started, i.e. fixing carpenter, plaster or plumber the lockup builder needs to rip the new tradies work. Who then pays for the rework? 
I'd OB from start to finish (and have) or let a builder do the whole lot. 
Another option is to OB the whole lot, buy get a builder to project manage it.

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