# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Too many lights in bathroom? Advice please

## elina2802

Hi everyone, 
Still trying to finalise my lighting plan, and wondering if I have too many lights in the bathroom?  The room is about 7.8sqm (~3.15m x ~ 2.5m). 
I have added a Neo heat module in the middle of the room (as I'm no longer doing underfloor heating I realised there is no heating in the room). I am planning on having 4x 70mm downlights and one wall light above the mirror (mainly for the look). There is also a narrow horizontal window to along the wall to the right of the shower where the vanity is. I think it's 2m high. The vent above the shower is a vent only with no lights. 
I've attached the plan. If you have any advice about any of the other rooms I'd be more than happy to hear it! 
Thank you  :Redface: )

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## phild01

Overall, way too many lights (excepting kitchen). LED downlights are high output these days. I put in too many and it is less than what you have there.  Also best to use 90mm as access for future servicing is difficult with the 70mm.  Make sure the sparkie uses batten outlet sockets for each downlight.
If you want that many lights then use low wattage, maybe 7w, or put on a dimmer.

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## elina2802

> Overall, way too many lights (excepting kitchen). LED downlights are high output these days. I put in too many and it is less than what you have there.  Also best to use 90mm as access for future servicing is difficult with the 70mm.  Make sure the sparkie uses batten outlet sockets for each downlight.
> If you want that many lights then use low wattage, maybe 7w, or put on a dimmer.

  I'm planning to have all downlights except in bathroom and entry with a dimmer. I did a lighting plan with Brightgreen and this is what the plan had suggested (except bathroom which only had 4 downlights in the plan) - I added the Neo heat light and wall light after.

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## Spottiswoode

Yup, too many. It could be that the lighting plan was designed to sell more lights (the horror) 
Our kids bedrooms have 2 90mm downlights and it is plenty. Sizes 3.2x3.8 3.5x3.8 and 3.3*4.7. Each also has a fan light in the centre, which puts out less light but stops seeing shadow flicker when the fan is on. 
Bathrooms have 2 downlights for similar size to yours. One pretty much over the basin and the other in a 'suitable' location. The main bathroom has one downlight over the basin and the other is and LED globe in the IXL in the middle of the room (switched together). All are sufficiently lit. The en-suite has 3 downlights, but it is a sort of u-shape so 2 wouldn't cover the area without shadows. 
The walk in robe under construction has 3, but it is long and narrow at about 6.5x1.5 and the three lights are needed to cover adequately. 
I'd suggest 2 for bedroom 1&2, bathroom, dining, kitchen. Maybe 3 for lounge, but depending on layout 4 might work better. In the lounge I'd consider switching them in 2 sections (sections as shown as 2 squares of 4 in your current layout). 
IF getting dimmers, make sure you get proper ones. The ones we have sometimes make the lights buzz or flicker and are not linear in their dimming capability. It can be difficult to get them to adjust accurately so we don't use them. They were installed by the previous owner and I may end up taking them out.

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## phild01

It's all going to add up, done your costings on the neo, dimmers and lights yet?

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## elina2802

Yes...which is also why I'm revisiting. The dimmers are very pricey...particularly in the Saturn Zen range.

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## elina2802

I'm thinking downlights and Neo would be cheaper (and nicer looking) than a large Neo module with heater and lights inbuilt?

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## elina2802

One more thing, I just got the kitchen measurements and the bench where I'm planning to put 2x pendants is 226cm. Would 2 pendants about 30cm wide be too much for that space?

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## r3nov8or

Bathroom: don't underestimate the importance of the lights at the mirror. Done well you may not even need others in the room. It's not for a night game of footy

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## Spottiswoode

> Bathroom: don't underestimate the importance of the lights at the mirror. Done well you may not even need others in the room. It's not for a night game of footy

  Just tested the theory. Light over the mirror on, removed globe from the centre IXL - left it a bit dark in the shower at approx 2.5m away. Not so dark it was scary, but with the centre globe back in it is better. The downlight didn't have the spread to get there, a light fitting not fitted recessed to the ceiling might have been OK as the downlight points down funnily enough.

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## r3nov8or

> Just tested the theory. Light over the mirror on, removed globe from the centre IXL - left it a bit dark in the shower at approx 2.5m away. Not so dark it was scary, but with the centre globe back in it is better. The downlight didn't have the spread to get there, a light fitting not fitted recessed to the ceiling might have been OK as the downlight points down funnily enough.

  I did say 'done well'. Downlights do not qualify, in any situation.  
IMHO

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## Spottiswoode

> I did say 'done well'. Downlights do not qualify, in any situation.  
> IMHO

  True enough. Our last house had one standard (but ugly) fitting using a normal globe over the basin and lights in the IXL in the middle of the room. They were switched so that the over basin light was on one switch, and the IXL light came on with the fan. Worked well, typically only the light over the basin was used and the other light/fan was only used for showering and the fan was required.

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## elina2802

I've redone the lighting plan and reduced the number of downlights, also taking into account that they have 720 lumens. I also removed the wall light above the mirror in the bathroom and replaced it with 2 wall lights on either side of the mirror as the window above the mirror starts at 2m height and there wouldn't be enough space above the mirror. 
I'd welcome any thoughts on this lighting plan please. Thank you!

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## phild01

Sorry Elina, my assumptions are based on lumens of approx 1000.  I tend to find that rated outputs are not always correct.  When I set mine up I bought several downlights to ensure they were bright enough, and had wide dispersion (not sure how well 70mm will fare with light spread).  I put 6 1000 lumen leds in an area of 4.8x5.5m and it is too bright.  So I guess 6000 lumens total in an area of 26.4m2.  Your living room is approx 18m2 and you are having 4500 lumens total.  Mine is roughly 230 lumens m2, yours now is approx 250 lumens m2.  I would think with a dimmer it will be okay but bear in mind dimmers aren't always that great in performance, they may not take the lighting to zero and if they do get close they can constantly blink the output which is annoying. 
What I did was work out my seating locations and had a bank of 3 downlights over that area so that it was good for reading but hidden from TV viewing so there was no glare watching TV.

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## elina2802

The light spread is 40 degrees. I selected the Brightgreen class curve D700.

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## r3nov8or

I like the bathroom. Ladies will appreciate the lights either side of the mirror

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## elina2802

Do you think the 3 vertical downlights in the dining area and second bedroom looks ok?

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## phild01

Forty degree light spread is fairly poor, I would be looking at something much greater than that, like 120 degrees.  You might need the original light plan if that's the case.  What lights are you going to use?

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## elina2802

I've selected the Brightgreen D700 Classic curve 70mm cutout. D700.CL-CR-3K-55-W  https://brightgreen.com/led-lights/d700-curve-downlight 
My mistake, looks like the beam angle is 55 degrees. 
Has anyone used these?

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## Spottiswoode

I'd rearrange the downlights in the bathroom to be in the horizontal plane of the plan. As they are, in vertical, they won't reach the shower, bath as well. If there isn't enough light offer the vanity, then the mirror lights will be able to take over.

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## pharmaboy2

> Forty degree light spread is fairly poor, I would be looking at something much greater than that, like 120 degrees.  You might need the original light plan if that's the case.  What lights are you going to use?

  Really? 
120 degrees is by definition a glare ridden luminaire.  The sudden attraction of LEDs with frosted lenses and 100 degrees and up dispersion is a question of cheap optics needing frosting to make them vaguely acceptable.  Just about all good quality LEDs are clear with a max of 60 degrees. 
there is a forum with a thread by a lighting engineer, which you can read the whole thing and get a real good handle on dos and don't s for lighting design. 
i got an architects plan plus a brightgreen one, and really, they err on the side of too much light, especially with trying to create symmetry with Downlights. 
consider pendant for dining room, some other brands I found with suitable deep set low glare fittings include the unifit by SAL, premium lighting, lumex, trend lighting, domus deep. 
ive just fitted a proper downlight upstairs right next to a recessed frosted and the comparison is pretty stark - the std 60 degree is so much more comfortable to look past.

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## r3nov8or

> I'd rearrange the downlights in the bathroom to be in the horizontal plane of the plan. As they are, in vertical, they won't reach the shower, bath as well. If there isn't enough light offer the vanity, then the mirror lights will be able to take over.

  IMHO this just goes to show how bad downlights are. I'll stop now.

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## phild01

> I've selected the Brightgreen D700 Classic curve 70mm cutout. D700.CL-CR-3K-55-W  https://brightgreen.com/led-lights/d700-curve-downlight 
> My mistake, looks like the beam angle is 55 degrees.

  This is the type of downlight I prefer as they have a good spread of light.  Any reason you prefer 70mm over 90mm? 
Not meaning to promote that business,  showing what I mean as a more common type of led light now.

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## elina2802

> This is the type of downlight I prefer as they have a good spread of light.  Any reason you prefer 70mm over 90mm?  Not meaning to promote that business, showing what I mean as a more common type of led light now.

  Thank you, I"ll have a look. I prefer the 70mm because I think they are less obvious on the ceiling and tend to blend in quite well.

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## elina2802

I've had another go of the lighting plan and I've removed the kitchen pendants because I think they will get in the way and annoy me. Instead, I've included black surface mounted downlights as a bit of a feature in the kitchen (my kitchen will be all white with a black fridge). I've also included a pendant in the dining area. 
In regards to the bathroom, I'm concerned that I won't be able to have a wall light at the vanity as if I have it one on either side of the mirror, one of them might be too close to the shower, and I think having it above the mirror won't be an option due to the window. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this new plan (and hopefully the last version!)

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## phild01

Incidentally, is your ceiling height a standard 2.4m?

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## elina2802

> Incidentally, is your ceiling height a standard 2.4m?

  Yes it is

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## phild01

I'm not seeing much on the plan indicating the vanity and window,  I reckon you only need two of those lights I linked to above and one above the vanity.  Though I might understand a desire for better vanity style lighting.

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## elina2802

> I'm not seeing much on the plan indicating the vanity and window,  I reckon you only need two of those lights I linked to above and one above the vanity.  Though I might understand a desire for better vanity style lighting.

  The vanity will be to the right of the shower (left of the bath). There is a horizontal window on that wall starting at 2m high (where the shower panel will finish). I put 2x downlights there for better lighting at the vanity if I don't cant have the wall lights.

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## phild01

Best I can make out from the plan and what you say! :Confused:

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## elina2802

> Best I can make out from the plan and what you say!

  Sorry for being confusing!  The vanity is directly under the window (to the right of the shower). The toilet is to the right of the bath.

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## phild01

.

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## phild01

> IMHO this just goes to show how bad downlights are. I'll stop now.

  I don't think they're great either,  narrow beam lousy for reading and wide beam lousy for glare.  Hard to win!

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## elina2802

> .

  yes that's correct! I like your drawing!

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## Bigboboz

My general comment is personal preference is a big factor, there isn't necessarily right or wrong. 
Best thing we did was buy some downlights and try them out. The ones we bought (Ledlux) have standard plugs on them so we could just run an extension cord to where we wanted to try them.  We also put in dimmers so were of the view we could just run them at a lower brightness if needed.  They don't dim all the way to zero but close to zero is not needed for this purpose, 100% down to 30% is plenty of range. 
We're probably on the bright side but after we moved in we both found we liked it bright. Late at night I often drop the brightness ahead of going to sleep but otherwise we like it full ball bright.   
I think the reason why we find it ok brighter than normal is because of Pharmaboy2's point about glare.  From memory our downlights are 55 deg. 
We also put in central feature pendant lights but their brightness is very low. 
For the bathroom we were recommended to use the downlights with wide spread not because of they have widespread but because they are better sealed to handle a steamy environment.  The widespread light in the bathroom is ok as it's a smaller space so you don't get the glare from lights.  In fact we don't get shadows at all.

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## Spottiswoode

> Best thing we did was buy some downlights and try them out. The ones we bought (Ledlux) have standard plugs on them so we could just run an extension cord to where we wanted to try them.

  This is a good idea. Even if you don't get a whole room full to try, you can get an idea of the light coverage for each light. I bought 3 for the all in robe knowing the length needed it. I based this on how far the other downlights in the house were spreading their light. The during construction I had a couple strung up from the rafters (pre gyprock) to see roughly where they were needed prior to getting the sparkie in. Once the light GPOs were installed I then fine tuned their location by holding them in position prior to drilling holes in the roof.

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## phild01

> Best thing we did was buy some downlights and try them out. The ones we bought (Ledlux) have standard plugs on them so we could just run an extension cord to where we wanted to try them.

  ..yes, what I was trying to suggest before.   

> I bought several downlights to ensure they were bright enough, and had wide dispersion (not sure how well 70mm will fare with light spread). 
> What I did was work out my seating locations and had a bank of 3 downlights over that area so that it was good for reading but hidden from TV viewing so there was no glare watching TV.

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