# Forum Home Renovation Fences & Screens  Frameless Glass Pool Fencing Footings

## pepsi

Hi
Have a few questions re footings for frameless glass pool fencing. 
My plan was to concrete each spigot straight into a 300 x 300 x 600mm post hole footing rather than a strip footing as recommended by most diy sites.
Also I was not planning on pouring the footing and then core drilling the footing and 'grouting' the spigot in place, I was going to put the spigot in the hole and pour the concrete around the spigot and let that set, without using grout. 
Can someone tell me if it is ok to use post hole footings for each spigot rather than a strip footing and if I can set the spigot into the concrete rather than using grout. 
Many thanks

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## pharmaboy2

Strip footings would be so the ground doesn't move and crack your glass. 
you could concrete it in if you wanted, but that means setting the glass in situ absolutely perfect, then managing to pour concrete without getting it all over the glass, and not breaking the glass with a barrow, or knocking one of your glass supports. 
dont even think about putting spigots in without glass, you will never get the glass to line up nicely. 
(non professional, read it all, and done it once)

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## r3nov8or

Strip footings would also ensure your gap between glass and finished ground level remains 'legal'

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## phild01

Can't the footing be done with a pipe form that can be later removed, avoiding coring.

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## r3nov8or

> Can't the footing be done with a pipe form that can be later removed, avoiding coring.

  Now that's an idea!

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## phild01

I've never done a glass fence but could 90mm drainage pipe be used.  What size cores are usually done?

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## pepsi

Trying to find out the core size as I am considering usng pipe in the footing to save drilling after it has set. I will contact the supplier of the spigot for core size.
Spoke to an installer and was told if I use Post hole footings instead of strip footing then there is a small chance that later the glass may get out of alignment if the footing moves.
Does anyone know why I have to use grout to fix the spigot into the concrete footing and not put the spigot directly into the concrete footing when it is being poured.

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## PlatypusGardens

> Does anyone know why I have to use grout to fix the spigot into the concrete footing and not put the spigot directly into the concrete footing when it is being poured.

  I imagine it would be near impossible to set the spigots 100% accurate if they're not attached to the glass when setting them.
They have to be perfectly aligned, square, straight and level as well as line up with the holes in the glass panel. 
Unlike with stirrups for timber posts etc where you have a bit of room to adjust, glass tends to be rather unforgiving if it's 3mm out.....

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## phild01

> Does anyone know why I have to use grout to fix the spigot into the concrete footing and not put the spigot directly into the concrete footing when it is being poured.

   

> you could concrete it in if you wanted, but that means setting the glass in situ absolutely perfect, then managing to pour concrete without getting it all over the glass, and not breaking the glass with a barrow, or knocking one of your glass supports. 
> dont even think about putting spigots in without glass, you will never get the glass to line up nicely.

  Doubt you could set the spigots without the glass, and have perfect alignment!

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## pepsi

Yes definitely will be attaching the spigots to the glass before fixing them into the concrete/grout.
I am trying to find out why they use grout to set the spigots and not concrete / cement

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## phild01

> Yes definitely will be attaching the spigots to the glass before fixing them into the concrete/grout.
> I am trying to find out why they use grout to set the spigots and not concrete / cement

  It would be a non shrink grout of high strength, concrete/cement would be unsuitable in small diameter holes.

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## pharmaboy2

> Yes definitely will be attaching the spigots to the glass before fixing them into the concrete/grout.
> I am trying to find out why they use grout to set the spigots and not concrete / cement

  Fast setting. 
goes off to 50mpa or something in 30minutes.  That way you can setup a couple of sheets of glass, pour, then remove timber props and prop next glass sheet using 2 small blocks between sheets joined with a batten screw to get you flush. 
btw, the grout looks exactly the same as sand cement, and with some skill I managed to pour in some carefully mixed sand and cement into one of my holes and couldn't figure out why it wasn't going off lol. 
the other reason you want to use the grout is because it pours, concrete does not, and you need the liquid pour to make sure it fills the hole completely and also won't go everywhere - seriously follow the instructions, although you could form up the holes and remove pipe form, but you need to get the specific outer diameter for your spigots. 
its around $18 a core hole drilled from the concrete cutter guys - cheap as, given the extra accuracy.

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## pepsi

Thanks all.
All good info.
I would get the holes drilled by the concrete guys but i am putting post hole foitings in and using 300mm extension bars on the spigots to go to the bottom of the footing.
Not sure if they could cut a hole 400mm deep at a reasonable cost to me.
This is why i was initially thinking of pouring the concrete around the spigot and extension  without the grout.
I think i will use the pipe method where i pour the footing and then remove the pipe when it is firm.
Then install spigots with the grout around them

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## lazydays

Use grout.
As siad above, it is mixed to a creamy/runny consistancy and allows it tobe poured in. Set everything up first and prop it all up etc first. Use masking tape to hold cover plates up out of the way while the grout is pured.
The spigots only go into the slab about 130mm and I greatly doubt the strenght you can get with hand mixed concrete plus the gravel size interfering with the pour. Grout goes off in about 10 minutes and is non shrink.
Stick to the traditional way of installation.
Footings 300mm X 300mm with reo...you might get away with the idea of putting something like a cardboard tube instead of core drilling but you will usually find that your fencing supplier will also hire out a core drill to you for a reasonabe price. Also as its pretty green footings it will eat thru it easy as...even the odd bit of reo you will hit. Drill 67 dia X 150 mm deep. If it sandy like WA you can get extension pieces to add to the spigot lenght.
Drill all the way thru the footings.......remove plug from drill.....turn off water supply........drill thru the ground/earth....wash out soil from core drill....repeat for other spigots.

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## lazydays

P.S.....look at the "clamps" I have holding the glass aligned and the whole fence together and the props all holding it in place until the pour. I've got a bucket load of 32mm X 18mm about 150mm long  treated pine with a set screw/wingnut clamping it all together. If you dont want to make these up just use some paling off cuts and screw the two pieces plus the glass together with a 50mm batten screw

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## r3nov8or

Talking a lot of sense  :Smilie:

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## pepsi

Thanks lazydays for the detailed description and pic. Helped a lot. 
Yes i am in perth so very sandy. 
I am using grout now that i know the reasons why. The purpose of me posting the thread was because i couldnt find anyone who knew why i had to use grout instead of concrete but now i know the reasons. 
I am going to use 300 x 300 x 600 post hole footings for each spigot as opposed to a strip footing though. Spoke to an installer and said it will be fine just slightly more chance of moving later but he said he has done this before. 
I will then get the holes core drilled by a tradie. Got quoted 330 for 12 spigots 350mm deep. I am happy with this price. 
As long as i mark them out correctly should be no problem. 
Went to the supplier to get extensions for the spigots but they only do a 60mm extension.
He said a lot of installers get 43mm galvanized pipe and shove it up the hollow inside of the spigot and either weld it or screw it in.
I am going to do this to extend the length to  be 300mm in ground.

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## r3nov8or

I'm really not sure how a spigot gets stronger extended that far into the footing. Doesn't appear to be a common practice in the other reading I have now done. Wondering if it's worth the trouble

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## pharmaboy2

It would only help if the extension was stiffer than the concrete/grout.  I certainly wouldn't expect that to be case

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## lazydays

I wouldn't bother with the extensions but am slightly worried about each spigot being "independent" from each other. You just need a lot of rain and a bit of soil movement or compaction and one spigot "may" sink, compared to it's neighbor. 
I have only ever used extensions twice.  
The first time was helping a friend out when he poured a 150mm X 150mm footing with no reo and then used baseplate spigots. Needless to say the strip job was pretty crappy with poor levels and not wide enough and a couple of the dynabolts cracked the edge.. I replaced the baseplate spigots with core drilled spigots plus extensions and it came up good. 
The second time was when a customer was getting new paving put down and wanted frameless fencing so I marked out the fenceline and told the paver layer to put down a 300mm X 300mm strip footings with reo. Needless to say he took the easy way out and laid the footing too far below his pavers which enabled him to cover the footing with varying levels of cracker dust, some up to 100mm cover which didn't allow the spigots to extend down into the footings. (plus big problems with the cracker dust jamming up the core drilling) 
You will find that the combo of grout and slab that the spigots will become part of the slab, given the strength of the grout and I doubt extensions will give any more strength. The strength problem will be in the individual footings if they move over time at varying rates. 
If you do want to extend them and you have no supplier you will find the spigots have a 12mm threaded hole in the end....just add some threaded rod. 
In your situation can I also advise using "rigi-clamps" They are only $12 each and will maybe help hold the glass together and aligned and do not look obtrusive..

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## pepsi

Thanks lazydays.
The  rigi clamps i guess go near the top of the panels??
Do you think if i go deeper with the footings i would reduce the chance of movement later down the track.

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## pepsi

Also where would i get these clamps from.
A quick google search found them at $22 each.

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## pepsi

Great info and have learnt a lot.
Would like to share my learnings so it may assist others doing this. 
Strip footing with reinforcing rods/mesh are best so as to reduce the chance of one footing moving independently of the other and therefore making the fence out of alignment later down the track.
Concrete for footings should be as close as possible to the strength rating of the construction grout being used to bond the spigots in the footing. IE High strength concrete, 40mpa .
Use construction grout to bond the spigots into the core drilled holes as this has less shrinkage and movemment plus is high strength, 50mpa. It is also able to be mixed as a flowing paste so it can be poured into the spigot hole. Concrete cannot without losing a lot of its strenegth.
Construction grout should be class c as this has the best curing properties as far as movement and shrinking is concerned.
Hope this helps someone else.
These are just my findings and I am happy to be corrected if there is justification.

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## avantgardeglass

Hi Pepsi, 
Just to give you some piece of mind from an installers perspective, your summary above is spot on.  
Other than the important things that you have mentioned such as ensuring you use mesh for strip footings (very important), there are few tips that you can use that will help with work-ability. 
1. Have a garden trowel handy when pouring the grout so that you can accurately pour the grout into the core holes.  You would be amazed how much this little item will help you when you reach this step. 
2. If possible, use kwixset expanding cement, which is pretty much the industry standard when it comes to pool fence and balustrade installations.  
(see: KWX50 - CRL 50 Lbs. Kwixset® Expanding Cement)
- This sets in 15-20 mins which really comes in handy to ensure that there is no movement in your glass after you get your levels right. 
3. As Lazydays mentioned, having some clamps handy to line up your glass is a must.  You can purchase the stainless steel ones you mentioned above but it would be more cost effective as this is a one off to just screw some pieces of timber together and tighten them to hold your glass in place. 
We have a pretty detailed guide on our website if that helps - see  Frameless Glass Pool Fencing In Sydney | DIY Fence Panels

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## lazydays

One more tip.When and if you do the core drilling make a template out of a bit of scrap ply or fence paling by coring out a hole.. Place the template over your markings and drill about 5mm deep, remove, finish hole.
It gives a good start to the hole and stops the drill from wandering on first impact.

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