# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  Qld tradies work for free ???

## ringtail

Hi all. I just want to throw this out there. Given the flood crisis in Qld and in Brisbane in particular, do you think it is fair for the government and council to be gently pressuring us tradies to work for free ? I have seen the sunrise morning show trying to get another tradie army thing happening - little do they know that out of state tradies cannot work in Qld unless the value of the work is under $ 3300. 
Its been a pretty lean year for Qld tradies ( 2010) and the last half of the year has been a shocker due to persistant rain, so I would just to know peoples opinions given that 
a.- people who have insurance will be covered
b - people with no insurance will get decent money from the government ( state and federal + welfare )
c - why should tradies be  encouraged to work for free to fix households that will receive monies one way or the other. 
Very little can / should be done for another month anyway so frames can dry out. I can see heaps of people trying to engage trades early and getting new gyprock on wet frames.  
As noble as the gesture is, a bunch of tradies not been able to pay their mortgage or feed their families will only add to the problem IMHO. I will be doing a discounted package deal on fixouts ( doors, skirts and archs) but I cant work for free. Ive been covered in crap for the last 4 days cleaning out peoples houses so as far as I'm concerned Ive done my bit for free. Thoughts please

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## Master Splinter

Agreed.   
The simple answer is 'Get the bank to cover the cost of my next few mortgage repayments and I'll think about it' (that's covering, not merely deferring the payments). 
And if you're off working for free for (whatever reason) then the pool of available tradesmen shrinks, meaning that prices go up for those who are able to pay.  Not to mention you won't have money to do things that you usually do, so other sectors of the economy suffer as you aren't pumping money into them. 
If people are living in a known flood zone and don't have appropriate insurance or other 'how high does the water get here?' preparations...exactly what are they expecting anyway? 
(there was a case recently in the US, where the fire brigade let someone's house burn down - the guy had specifically not paid his $75 fire insurance levy)

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## Oldsaltoz

Hi Ringtail, 
It would be 'nice' if a stack of tradies turned up did a lot of work for free. However the task is so large it would take years and the many reasons listed by Master Splinter are very valid. 
I, and I'm sure all tradies do free work a lot, we just don't make a fuss about it.
How many jobs have we all done that require some extra hours, material, parts etc that got added to the final cost because you felt sorry for the client. 
Last year after some major flooding this old lady of 86 called to ask if I would look at the damage caused and give her an estimate. 
Turned out she was the last of her line with no living relatives, the home was old queenslander about a metre off the ground with the bathroom, toilet and laundry all the back down a few steps, the rest of the house fine. 
I measured up the waterproofing needed and called a builder friend to come and have a look. 
He took about 30 minutes to measure and come up with a figure based on worst case, you replace studs and ll sheets type of thing, I added the cost of waterproofing including all new shower with 3 corner angles to avoid the big hob she had and waterproofing the laundry and toilet that was never done. 
Needless to say the total was a bit more than she could ever afford, looking around everything was clean and tidy but no sign anything new or extravagant. 
Between us we decided to give the old a break and do the whole job for the cost of a materials. 
We both hoped in it the next morning and after two very long days had it done but for the painting, and my builder friend lined up his painter to to that. 
During the work the old dear was as regular as clockwork in that at 9:30 she would call to say she had made a cup of tea and had some biscuits for us, again at 12:30 she would have more tea and sandwiches made. 
A real nice old lady. 
At the end of the job we agreed we would split the cost between us and not charge anything at all for any part of the work. 
Now I know all tradies have done this sort of thing and continue to, not because they very kind and good people,  but because they understand tough times and suffering caused by matters outside of anyone's control, and think, that could be my Mum one day or even my wife or Doughter.   
By the way, she still send a Christmas card every year.

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## ringtail

I just cant wait to see how they will try and make it work. Who is paying for the materials ? Who is supplying materials ? Are the materials free ? etc...Is there BSA insurance been paid ? Who is the principle contractor ? Or is this going to be one big farce with ten plasterers in the one house fighting with eachother to get on camera. 
Not my cup of tea. Ive got 2 quotes to do tomorrow and I expect a whole lot more just from the streets surrounding me - infact, I'm going to try and not go out of my neighborhood if I can help it. A lot of guys I know wont do work around their own suburb, saying its too close to home ( read, I dont want people to know where I live ) 
Watch sunrise in the morning for the latest I guess.

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## Gaza

i think that working for free is ok for local church or school, or an old lady. the general public who have insurance, noway. 
when some one backed into your car at the shops did the panel guy fix your guy for free, no way you had to pay a massive excess, 
from a business point of view, i would keep doing what you were doing before the flood cause thats the work that will be left once the rebuild is done, 
look what happend to all the guys doing house insulation when that stopped. 
there is noway i would be taking a job on with out an order from an insurance company people might want to beat the rush but the tradie may end up not being paid when the claim is not approved. 
locals should support locals any fly by nighters should be told to go jump, get on a US forum and do a search about storm chasers, each year after the cylcones go through contractors drive from state by state taking work from the locals and ripping off home owners. 
i would not waste your time doing any quotes until the person has got $$ to spend or start charging $100 quote fee to get rid of the tyre kickers. 
we might bring our guys up for a weekend to do some work for charity and give the boys a break but we will be expecting some one else to chuck in for the materials, we wanted to do this for melb bush fires but could not find an organisation to work with.

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## Black Cat

I would certainly not expect any tradie to work on my place for free. Those who do not have insurance have made a choice, so it's their bad luck. Getting together an army of volunteers to help clear up the mess is one thing. To do actual trades work - forget it!!

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## ringtail

It seems to be a growing opinion that tradies should just treat the situation like any other. Fair enough too I say.

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## Gaza

i ask this question is Kochie working for free, maybe he can pay the tradespeople.

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## ringtail

good point gaza, I'll get on the sunrise soap box and ask him

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## Master Splinter

With Kochie's salary and existing financial situation, he is in the position of being able to afford to work for free.   
I'd  say his Sunrise gig is worth at least $300-500k pa, so going without  the equivalent of a tradies wages for a few weeks isn't really going to  hit his hip pocket in any noticeable way.   
These days, financial  stress for him is 'might have to sell assets at the wrong time for the  market' and not 'pay to keep a roof overhead'.

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## watson

Agreed....its a stupidity spouted by a D....head that should know better.

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## ibuildbenches

I agree Ringtail. 
While helping someone out is fine, but EXPECTING tradies to help out for FREE as soon as a natural disaster happens is BS. Thousands of homes destroyed and an small army of tradies is going to make all that much difference?? 
It only benifits the media, so they can add a little 'backyard blitz' element to their 18 hour a day coverage. 
Why doesn't the government do more, or the banks, insurance companies etc etc so that it will actually make a difference rather that 20 chippies putting up a new fence. 
Id be happier if we just paid 0.5% of our weekly wage into a 'natural disaster fund' so we have the money ready to go when this stuff happens. 
If the average wage is around a $1000 a week, $5 a week from say 6 million Australians every week is $1.56 billion a year! 
My opinions only  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Have you heard the latest ? Anna has given the recovery task force full control over the relief funding and it looks as if those house that are flood damaged will not get funding unless they are raised. Wheres my jack.

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## watson

Mortified

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## ringtail

You should read the comments on the sunrise website. Not a popular idea at all. Google sunrise, go to soapbox, scroll down and have a look at the 35 pages of comments.

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## Gaza

[quote=ibuildbenches;828620] 
If the average wage is around a $1000 a week, $5 a week from say 6 million Australians every week is $1.56 billion a year! 
[quote] 
good idea but any govt will happly start spending our savings to make them look better,

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## Oldsaltoz

Got this e-mail, might help.      *THE  TOP 8 RECIPIENTS OF THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT'S AID DOLLARS IN  2010-2011*  Indonesia  -                        $ 458.7 million  Papua New  Guinea -         $ 457.2  million  Solomon  Islands -            $ 225.7  million  Afghanistan -                    $  123.1 million  Vietnam  -                         $ 119.8 million  Philippines -                     $  118.1 million  East  Timor -                     $  102.7 million  Cambodia -                        $  64.2 million    *TOTAL  =* *$  1,669 million** -to  be given away in 52 weeks*   *..but  wait, theres more...  !!!!!!!*   Australia  provides approximately 150,000 tonnes of food aid every yearabout $65  millionto  Bangladesh,   Indonesia,   Sri  Lanka,   Sudan   and    Chad.     In 2010-2011 the  Australian Government plans to spend almost $4.4 billion on development  assistance to under developed countries.   *SO..  Ask your local Member how come 2011 Queensland flood victims get * *$17  million so far?*  When insurers, such as  Allianz and CGU, provide cover for storm damage but *EXCLUDE FLOOD*  from  their home and contents policies.   *SUGGEST,  we EXCLUDE them from our Shopping Lists    ????*  And now Gillard will  give nearly $500 million for Indonesias Islamic schools which are largely  moderate in outlook but there have been pockets of radicalism that have produced  terrorists in Indonesia, most notably the cleric Abu Bakar Bashirs school in  Ngruki, central Java, where some of the Bali bombers  studied  *STOP  THE OVERSEAS AID NOW AND DIVERT THOSE FUNDS TO*  *QUEENSLAND**. *   *WHEN  QUEENSLAND HAS  BEEN REBUILT AND BACK ON ITS FEET,*  *THEN  WE CAN HELP TO BUILD MORE ISLAMIC SCHOOLS*  *OVERSEAS.  AND HERES AN IDEA:*  *MAYBE  WE CAN ALSO TEACH ABU BAKIRS DISCIPLES TO  SING*  *"KOOKABURRA  SITS ON THE OLD GUM TREE",*  *"GUMBAYAH",* *"WALTZING  MATILDA"*  *AND *  *"I  STILL CALL AUSTRALIA HOME"!!*

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## Master Splinter

With government aid, you have to remember that the dollar amount isn't necessarily a wad of cash available to be handed over - it consists of things like funding the AFP to run training courses for other countries (like Indonesia, where they need to maybe not be quite so corrupt) or Defence doing regional training exercises which benefit our military as well as the recipient nation (our military costs have been budgeted for...but we can now claim some of them in the 'overseas aid expenditure' column on the spreadsheet rather than the 'costs of running Defence' column).  
Basically, if anyone from a government department goes over to another country to provide training or specialist advice, it can be written under an Ausaid program.  These people's salaries are already budgeted for by the department they work for, but can be stated for Ausaid purposes at whatever the department's charge-out rate is, which might be double or triple the actual cost. 
So keep in mind that the overseas aid programs are perhaps the very best example of government rubbery figures!

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## PhilT2

Likewise the billion dollars in aid we gave after the tsunami hit Indonesia was in Aust grown wheat, rice, building materials and medical supplies.

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## PhilT2

Watching the news tonight I had that deja vu all over again feeling when people were talking about how the insurance cos were trying to weasel out of admitting liability. It was 1974 to the letter. In insurance language flood doesn't mean what everyone else thinks it does. But the houses that went under in '74 could never get insurance anyway.

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## Master Splinter

Yes - if you live on a street where there are those 'Road subject to flooding - indicators show depth' signs and the depth indicators top a couple of meters it should give you a hint that worthwhile flood insurance could be problematic. 
What some people will find is that they are covered for 'flash flooding' - localised high rainfall events overwhelming drainage - but not for the local river or creek overflowing its banks due to continued high rainfall in its catchment area. 
The insurance industry says that there are around 175,000 houses in areas that are basically flood-uninsurable because they are built in flood plains....that is, unless we all want to kick in a few extra dollars in our insurance policies to allow for the complete replacement of these houses every *n* years. 
Personally, I like the talk by the recovery taskforce of ....duhhhhhh...lets not rebuild in the same areas that were flooded because its only going to happen again (we don't yet have the engineering capability to divert two Sydney Harbours full of water per day), but I expect there will be the usual wails of anguish from people who don't want to move (cue longshot of crying overweight mother-of-four with facial tatts).

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## ringtail

The houses that went under around the corner from me are all typical post war lowsets on concrete stumps about 600 mm high. To raise them up to 8.5 mt height limit with a slab under would cost no more than $ 50 - 60k. They would then have a house that was clear of 1974 flood levels and covered car accomodation under, which is a lot more than what they have now. I'm not agreeing with the policy of no lift no funding but, it definitely has merit in some situations. I would be crapped right off if I owned one of the new houses built in these same streets that  are now ruined, due to the planning regs that have dropped the flood level substantialy from the 74 levels.

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## jamc0984

On a side note to the tradies working for free issue, I work for a local brisbane business with many clients in the flood affected areas. The business is in the construction supply industry and already we are being hit with a lot of people beginning to rebuild etc and chasing supplies.  
We are encountering an issue where people are asking for supplies for free or cost as they have been flooed affected. The problem with this is that, the business with 50 employees still needs to pay wages, spend money on machinery upkeep and purchase all the stock which we are being asked to give away for free. 
There has already been a number a times where we have been accused of ripping off the public as we are not doing enough for them.  
I think its a real difficult position to put local businesses and trades people in.

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## ringtail

Thats crap eh. I said it before and I'll say it again, those with insurance will be covered , those without will be covered to some extent by the gov and welfare and SUNRISE. Just go about business as per usual or maybe drop your retail price a little bit closer to trade - not down to trade, just a little bit closer. You still have to feed the family as do the staff. A lot of bleeding hearts and crocodile tears will come out of this and the ones that will suffer in the long run are those that have been taken advantage of, whether they be tradies, suppliers, or home owners having dodgy work done. Where I am in Graceville, people are still doing demo and hosing mud as it becomes apparent that things are not drying that quick and more wall linings need to come off. People are been stupid about it though. Houses that had 200 mm of water through are stripping the entire wall . I just cut 500 mm up in one house yesterday and will try and convince the owner to put villaboard back, wetseal it and tile up the wall 600 mm. ( this is downstairs in a 2 storey slab on ground house - had carpet downstairs, is now going to be tiled) This house is less than 4 years old and was built 500 mm above the 1/100 flood level. If the flood went to 74 levels it would have had at least 1.5 mt through it. Great planning eh.

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## Moondog55

I always knew there was a REASON old Queenslanders were set up on 2400mm piles, must have been some-one doing their homework in the old days. 
I said something similar on Facebook last week and got lots of "Hate mail" replies, people have to be responsible for their own stupidity or they just repeat the mistakes. 
  Seriously what cost a house-load of concrete piles against the cost of replacing the whole house and contents, and if access is a problem for those frail older or disabled persons then an electric lift isn't all that expensive these days

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## brettsyoung

My understanding from a mate in Qld Govt is that the "free" tradies will be used to quickly repair community-owned assets like social, sporting and other clubs that don't have the capacity to repair themselves, and other community facilities like kids play areas and picnic areas that might not be fixed for years otherwise.  It's all about getting communities on their feet and bringing some normality back to their lives.  It's not about councils/Qld Govt getting free labour, or uninsured home owners getting a free reno.  It's not about someone trying to rip someone else off.  Give some credit to the hundreds of tradies already signed up - they're usually smart, hardworking businesspeople who have the capacity to spare a bit of their time.  They're not idiots, quite the contrary...

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## Moondog55

Volunteering to fix community assets after a disaster is a given in certain communities ( most of those are in the bush I would think ) but if those facilities are not owned by the community I would hesitate.

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## ringtail

I'll believe it when I see it brettsyoung. The distinct impression that is been given is that these free tradies will be fixing houses and maybe other things. Dont forget that the government already has its own builders - Qbuild to fix their assets, like wise with the brisbane city council, so that leaves houses.

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## Pulse

I agree with you guys, I feel sorry for people who were flood affected but this happens all the time, to someone,  somewhere in Australia. The scale of this flooding, the number affected and the fact it is a major city is what has made this a large scale disaster. 
As long as no-one profiteers ie jacks up the prices because they can, I think thats OK. The problem is that market forces will drive up labour costs until the workforce catches up through training and migration from other areas. 
Cheers
Pulse

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## PhilT2

Volunteers who have helped strip out flooded homes and cart away the rubbish have saved the insurance companies millions of dollars as the cost of this is a legitimate part of a claim. Queensland Floods | Insurers the winners from clean-up goodwill 
How do the insurance companies plan to repay this generosity from the community? By screwing as many as they can... Brisbane floods insurance

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## journeyman Mick

> ...........As long as no-one profiteers ie jacks up the prices because they can, I think thats OK. ...............

  A builder mate of mine that does a lot of work for Suncorp has been asked if he can put a crew together to work in flood affected areas. I might be joining him. Thing is, I'll be a 1000km or more from home, family and comforts, either having to rent a house or perhaps living in a caravan and going to the laundromat every week. If I price jobs as if I'm at home I'll be out of pocket for the cost of accomodation for a start, let alone any sort of compensation for living away from home. Now I don't want to gouge anybody, but if I'm going to travel to the other end of the state to work it needs to be worth my while.  
The QBuild guys will be getting an extra $500 a week or so allowance for remote work, shouldn't I get at least the same? 
Mick

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## ringtail

I dont know if everyone has heard the latest news regarding flood assistance payments. It turns out that they wil be means tested ( fair enough), but if you earn $ 48 000 combined household income, super generous Anna will give you ..........$ 0.00. Top work Anna, you utter gibbon. If this is true ( heard it on the radio) it means that the people who have lost everything can only claim the $ 1000 per adult and $ 400 per child for loosing the power for 48 hours or more. What an absolute joke. If this is true, the witch shall burn.

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## PhilT2

_The QBuild guys will be getting an extra $500 a week or so allowance for remote work, shouldn't I get at least the same?_ 
Got to keep in mind that finding a place to stay in flood affected areas may be difficult and expensive. Also if you are planning an extended absence you have to cost in a trip back home on a regular basis, just to keep the grass cut at home and any other domestic duties you can't contract out.

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## mark53

Top work Anna, you utter gibbon. 
GOLD!

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## ringtail

She has lost any cred that she gained through the floods by pulling this bollocks. If you have a household income of $ 48k, you probably cant afford a mortgage anyway. So who is getting this money ? Wealthy multi property owners ?no, people who live in caravans ? maybe, or is Anna going to stick it in her broke Governments' back pocket ? Revolting troll

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## stevoh741

> If this is true, the witch shall burn.

  I'd vote for a banana before I'd vote bligh!

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## mark53

"Revolting troll" 
And the quinella goes to............... GOLD again. I'm LMAO. Don't stop when your in front.

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## ringtail

Heard on the news this arvo that she now thinks 100 k should be the threshold as this is what was used for the bushfires and cyclone larry, but, she still wont commit to it and wont until she knows how much money is available to spend..errr ...distribute. It would not surprise me if she starts to sell flood effected properties out from under people claiming them as public assets.

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## intertd6

I think you will find that the assistance figures quoted are for the federal Govt centrelink one off disaster payments & the same Australia wide, plus not from the state coffers.
regards inter

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## ringtail

The centre link and fed gov payments are one thing, but the premiers flood appeal funding payments are causing the headaches. The 1st phase payments are not means tested and are a couple of grand. The 2nd phase payments - the useful money, is the point of conjecture. Initially it was going to be means tested at 48 k, now it is been put on hold until the figures come in - due to public pressure and accusations of tight waddedness on the part of bligh. Of course the state oppostion is claiming a moral victory saying it was their idea for 100 k means test as per other natural disasters. It has been a shocker of a week for bligh - hero to zero. Nothing changes up here with this government and based on past performances of utter financial incompetence I think those who really need the dollars should not hold thier collective breathes. The new flood committee will absorb a very large portion of this money in salaries as is commonplace with all gov projects - too many chiefs, not enough indians.

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## The_Fixer

> The centre link and fed gov payments are one thing, but the premiers flood appeal funding payments are causing the headaches. The 1st phase payments are not means tested and are a couple of grand. The 2nd phase payments - the useful money, is the point of conjecture. Initially it was going to be means tested at 48 k, now it is been put on hold until the figures come in - due to public pressure and accusations of tight waddedness on the part of bligh. Of course the state oppostion is claiming a moral victory saying it was their idea for 100 k means test as per other natural disasters. It has been a shocker of a week for bligh - hero to zero. Nothing changes up here with this government and based on past performances of utter financial incompetence I think those who really need the dollars should not hold thier collective breathes. The new flood committee will absorb a very large portion of this money in salaries as is commonplace with all gov projects - too many chiefs, not enough indians.

  Typical of governments anywhere. Noses stuck up their russian bombshelters and with the good sense to match. Don't preach political persuasion, they're all the same to me.
There is an old saying: 
If you want something well and truly fu**ed up, get the government involved.

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## stevoh741

we going to get a cyclone levy too now?

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## ibuildbenches

There are two things in life guaranteed to **** you if you ever bend over. 
Boy George and the Government.

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## ringtail

I think its just started to really hit home to those poor buggers with no insurance. These guys are facing repair bills of at least 30 grand . Ive seen some quotes today for nearly triple that, and a few for around 15. Imagine been forced to pull upto a 100 grand out of ya bum just to move back into your house.Truly shocking. Could be enough to break some people.  
Example of one quote - 2 storey townhouse -painted blockwork, tiled floor down stairs, timber framed upstairs, gyprock, polished timber floors------went under to about window sill height upstairs ( 900 mm). 
To remove bottom sheet of gyprock, prep wall, disenfect, resheet, set /sand, arch + skirt, full repaint, 3 doors, new ceiling downstairs, cornice, skirt + arch and repaint ----- $ 31850.00 ---no mention of the upstairs floorboards or downstairs tiles or the wet areas.

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## barney118

Is bulls@@t to ask for free, is Kochie being slipped a brown paper bag from the insurance compaines?? There is a mountain of problems, safety/insurance (havent alreday mentioned them?) :Gaah: 
I wonder the value of having insurance full stop if the govt is going to bail you out for the once in a lifetime event. 
Why doesnt Anna allow you to draw on your superannuation for repairs? then we wouldnt need insurance full stop.

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## ibuildbenches

This is the reason I do not vote. If what we hear on the news regarding our government scares us, imagine all the secret deals, golden handshakes, wasted funds etc happening with our money that we dont know about. 
I have received a few fine notices in the past for not voting and I simply write them back with an excuse and they reply with no fine.  
At least I dont have to hang my head in shame coz I voted for croc tears JOOLYA.

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## Moondog55

Maybe we should be able to make pollies personally responsible for the mess they make. 
Trouble is when you sue the government you wind up paying the bill yourself in all the extra taxes you then have to pay, look at the SEC debacle after the Victorian bushfires wayback they just added $33- to everyones bill to pay for the compensation they had to pay. 
Am I too cynical or is my impression that the more competent a government the bigger thieves they are true??

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## Black Cat

I find it difficult to support the idea that people who CHOOSE not to insure their property can sit back and expect those of us who CHOOSE to insure carry the burden they have inflicted on themselves. If you consider that the costs involved are probably around the cost of carrying insurance over a period of time, then their choice has blown up in their faces. Sad. Time people started accepting that they are responsible for the consequences of their choices - good or bad - and stopped whinging and expecting handouts when the consequences are painful.

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## Moondog55

I agree BUT a lot of the blame goes to the authorities who OK'ed the building and subdivisions in the first place. 
If you build on a flood plain you get flooded is a given and Australia is so flat that our rivers flood really REALLY wide.
But when bulldozers are so cheap in comparison to other things there is no excuse for a house on a country property to get flooded out except lack of forethought and being cheap. 
P.A.Yeomans  worked out how to do this in the 1950s and the work was developed even further by Bill Mollison

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