# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  maximum power points

## j0den

Does anyone know how many power points can be run off a 10A circuit. 
I am just checking that i am not overloading my circuits and found that 1 circuit supplies the front and 1 circuit supplies the back? 
Is it unusual to have only 2 power circuits? 
In my DB i have: 
x2 10A power 
X1 15A Light
X1 15A A/C
X1 28A Water heater

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## boban

Read the last post by Pulse on the first page of this thread.  http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=25438

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## doug1

Jodan 
You need your installation checked properly by a qualified person if what you say is correct, It appears the fuse wedges are in the incorrect place form what you say 
power is normally 15 A  (Old system) 
Doug

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## el_caro

I really think you should get it checked out. 
With 10A socket outlets there is a requirements for at least 2 circuits. This appears to have been met. 
You have not mentioned whether there are circuit breakers or fuses. Nor have you mentioned whether you have a residual current protective device (RCD or earth leakage). 
Were the 10A socket outlets circuits protected by a breaker of  16A and supplied by 2.5mm2 cable, then you would be permitted 15 socket outlets per final subcircuit. 
You can only overload the wiring if the protective devices are not correct ratings for the cable installed. A 10A breaker or fuse rating is well and truly protecting cables and socket outlets but really seems too low a tripping or fusing rating. I would be looking at 16A protection of 2.5mm2 cable unless you have more than 15 GPOs installed in which case I would recommend 20A. If you have too low a tripping capacity (ie 10A) it may well result in unneccessary circuit breaking. 
If you do not have an RCD then seriously consider having one or more installed. 
Cheers
Juan

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## benja

Actually, according to Australian Standard AS3000-2007, you can have an unlimited number of outlets on a circuit that is protected by an RCD. The number is really only limited by practicalities. And it can be any rating 10A and above.
While i appreciate this is a forum where people are welcome to share ideas, there is a reason all electrical work needs to be done by QUALIFIED people, and it takes 4 years, plus a final week designing and building an installation to become qualified. 
It is the sort of half baked, ill informed ideas that make people think "i can have a go at that, its only 3 wires" that gets people killed.
For example, standard twin and earth wiring (like the flat stuff in your house) can be rated anywhere between 23A to less than 10A, depending on how it is installed. 
Please do not advise on matters you are not qualified to, unless you make it perfectly clear you are not qualified to do so- read the forum rules- if someone was killed because they did something you "thought" would be a good idea, i bet it wouldn't be long till the boys in blue came to question you. And imagine the paperwork the OH&S people would lump you with! 
Rant complete.

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## nev25

> Actually, according to Australian Standard AS3000-2007, you can have an unlimited number of outlets on a circuit that is protected by an RCD. The number is really only limited by practicalities. And it can be any rating 10A and above.
> While i appreciate this is a forum where people are welcome to share ideas, there is a reason all electrical work needs to be done by QUALIFIED people, and it takes 4 years, plus a final week designing and building an installation to become qualified. 
> It is the sort of half baked, ill informed ideas that make people think "i can have a go at that, its only 3 wires" that gets people killed.
> For example, standard twin and earth wiring (like the flat stuff in your house) can be rated anywhere between 23A to less than 10A, depending on how it is installed. 
> Please do not advise on matters you are not qualified to, unless you make it perfectly clear you are not qualified to do so- read the forum rules- if someone was killed because they did something you "thought" would be a good idea, i bet it wouldn't be long till the boys in blue came to question you. And imagine the paperwork the OH&S people would lump you with! 
> Rant complete.

  
Well said  :brava:

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## chuth77

> Actually, according to Australian Standard AS3000-2007, you can have an unlimited number of outlets on a circuit that is protected by an RCD. The number is really only limited by practicalities. And it can be any rating 10A and above.

  I'm very interested in this unlimited outlets on an RCD protected circuit? What clause of the standards is this from?

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## benja

Sorry, confusing myself there. I have a table from another AS stuck in the back of my AS3000. It's table 6.1, but i cant remember which standard it is from- could be 3017 or 3008, not sure, but it clearly states that a 10A socket outlet, fed by a 20A breaker has a maximum number of points "unlimited", whereas he same circuit, protected by a 16A breaker is limited to 15. 
All lighting and power outlets must be RCD protected.- Clause 2.5.3.1 "RCD's with a maximum rated residual current of 30mA shall be installed for thr protection of the following final subcircuits in domestic installations
(a)  Socket outlets
(b)  Lighting"

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## TermiMonster

Benja,
If you look at the date on the posts you were 'ranting' at, you will realize that that bloke will probably never read your reply :Doh: 
Cheers 
TM

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## chuth77

Correct in a way.. It's table 6.1 of 3018... 
The problem I see is that this guy has 10A CB's feeding these 10A sockets... Which then questions what size cabling is used... 
I didn't think there was anything about unlimited points if RCD protected...

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## benja

Yeah, memory is a fine thing- fine if it works, and only working by a fine margin!

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## chuth77

Tried the fish oil tablets, but I couldn't take enough of them!!! 
It's good to see a bit of information sharing and standards talk in the forum!

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## benja

Like anyone who has been forced to learn the Regs for good reason, i am always willing to tell people there is way more to it that the red and black wires (hahah). While some tasks are simple, and could be done by a monkey, there are good reasons why there is a blanket rule on doing your own electrical work, and people need to be qualified to do it. I wouldnt want to live with someone killing themselves, because of a bit of ill informed advice from the internet.

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## chuth77

And it's always good to have someone checking the standards as a backup... :Wink:  :2thumbsup:

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## nev25

> Sorry, confusing myself there. I have a table from another AS stuck in the back of my AS3000. It's table 6.1, but i cant remember which standard it is from- could be 3017 or 3008, [

  Which is out of date (superseded) in 5 days

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## benja

> Which is out of date (superseded) in 5 days

  Which one? 3000? 3008? 3017? Irrelevant anyway, table is from 3018.

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## nev25

The current AS/NZS 3018
Is the domestic section of AS/NZS 3000 - 2000 
I asume it will be revised to 3000- 2007

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## chuth77

It's an interesting situation with the two standards  because the new AS3000-2007 says that if you comply with AS3018 then you are deemed to comply... 
I haven't seen anything by the standards committees about a new AS3018, although I suspect this will happen in time...

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## el_caro

Benja 
I gave the following advice about 12 months ago to which you have issued a rant quoted below.  Can you confirm which if any part of my statement was wrong and also which part of your rant contained errors?   _El_caro     
			
				I really think you should get it checked out. 
With 10A socket outlets there is a requirements for at least 2 circuits. This appears to have been met. 
You have not mentioned whether there are circuit breakers or fuses. Nor have you mentioned whether you have a residual current protective device (RCD or earth leakage). 
Were the 10A socket outlets circuits protected by a breaker of 16A and supplied by 2.5mm2 cable, then you would be permitted 15 socket outlets per final subcircuit. 
You can only overload the wiring if the protective devices are not correct ratings for the cable installed. A 10A breaker or fuse rating is well and truly protecting cables and socket outlets but really seems too low a tripping or fusing rating. I would be looking at 16A protection of 2.5mm2 cable unless you have more than 15 GPOs installed in which case I would recommend 20A. If you have too low a tripping capacity (ie 10A) it may well result in unneccessary circuit breaking. 
If you do not have an RCD then seriously consider having one or more installed
			
		  _    
Benja   

> _Actually, according to Australian Standard AS3000-2007, you can have an unlimited number of outlets on a circuit that is protected by an RCD. The number is really only limited by practicalities. And it can be any rating 10A and above.
> While i appreciate this is a forum where people are welcome to share ideas, there is a reason all electrical work needs to be done by QUALIFIED people, and it takes 4 years, plus a final week designing and building an installation to become qualified.   It is the sort of half baked, ill informed ideas that make people think "i can have a go at that, its only 3 wires" that gets people killed.
> For example, standard twin and earth wiring (like the flat stuff in your house) can be rated anywhere between 23A to less than 10A, depending on how it is installed.   Please do not advise on matters you are not qualified to, unless you make it perfectly clear you are not qualified to do so- read the forum rules- if someone was killed because they did something you "thought" would be a good idea, i bet it wouldn't be long till the boys in blue came to question you. And imagine the paperwork the OH&S people would lump you with!_

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## benja

The bit where i was wrong was saying you can have an unlimited number of outlets on a circuit- this is only true for 20A protected circuits- perhaps i should check the book before quoting from memory. 
The bit you got wrong was "_ Were the 10A socket outlets circuits protected by a breaker of 16A and supplied by 2.5mm2 cable, then you would be permitted 15 socket outlets per final subcircuit."-_ not necessarily true, as  2.5 may not be sufficient for power circuits- really a technicality about the misconception that 2.5 is sufficient for all power circuits.
I was not having a go at you, more stating my feeling that this should be left to the experts.

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## el_caro

Benja 
 If you think using language like "_ It is the sort of half baked, ill informed ideas"  and  "__ Please do not advise on matters you are not qualified to"_ would not be perceived by some as having a go at them then you are mistaken like you were with your expert advice. 
By the way I served a 5 year apprenticeship and have held licenses in several states and other countries for 45 years.  And yes I know  table 6.1 in 3018 and the cable sizing implications of installing cables completely surrounded by thermal insulation. You will also note that I said the author of the question should get the installation checked out. My response was information of a general nature and I stand by it.  This is an excellent forum which affords general advice to people and it is not intended that they start wiring installations as a result of what they read. The forum functions best when contributors check their egos at the door and post with civility.

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## GraemeCook

Joden 
You got some good advice, especially from Benja and Nev. 
Also do not forget the practical limits, in addition to the safety and legal limits. 
In simple terms a 10 amp circuit at 240 volts will carry 2400 watts of power.   Plug in a 2400 watt radiator and the circuit is fully utilised.   Plug in anything else and it is overladen and the fuse will blow or the circuit breaker will trip.   And most electric motors use a lot of amps as they start up. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## benja

It appears some of my posts have caused offence. Perhaps if the entire thread is read, it would make more sense. https://www.renovateforum.com/f78/. 
It was never my intention to have my comments interpreted in the manner el_caro has taken them.
I believe all my posts are made with sufficient ego checking and civility, and i even freely admitted i was wrong. Cant get more humble than that IMHO.

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## el_caro

I was wrong again. Please accept my apology for taking offence at something that was not intended to offend

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## Vernonv

> In simple terms a 10 amp circuit at 240 volts will carry 2400 watts of power. Plug in a 2400 watt radiator and the circuit is fully utilised. Plug in anything else and it is overladen and the fuse will blow or the circuit breaker will trip..

  Graeme, that is only really true of a single 10 amp GPO. The circuit itself will handle up to the limit of the breaker protecting the circuit (assuming the breaker is correctly sized to the type of install) and most power circuit breakers are normally rated above 10 amps (16 or 20 being quite common). So as long as you don't overload a single GPO, you can safely draw up to the limit of the breaker (ie have 2 machines with a combined load of up to the breaker trip current plugged into different GPO's).   

> And most electric motors use a lot of amps as they start up.

  Most fuses/circuit breakers will handle a startup surge without tripping. Although if startup surge issues are a problem (and you are using breakers) you can get d-curve breakers that better handle motor startup currents.

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## GraemeCook

> Graeme, that is only really true of a single 10 amp GPO. The circuit itself will handle up to the limit of the breaker protecting the circuit (assuming the breaker is correctly sized to the type of install) and most power circuit breakers are normally rated above 10 amps (16 or 20 being quite common). So as long as you don't overload a single GPO, you can safely draw up to the limit of the breaker (ie have 2 machines with a combined load of up to the breaker trip current plugged into different GPO's).  
> Most fuses/circuit breakers will handle a startup surge without tripping. Although if startup surge issues are a problem (and you are using breakers) you can get d-curve breakers that better handle motor startup currents.

  Perfectly true, Vernon.   In trying to keep the post brief I oversimplified.  The point I was trying to make is that if you overload a circuit you blow the fuses;  if you are near the limit of circuit then the start up surge of a motor can blow the fuse.   Two (or more) lightly loaded circuits are both safer and more convenient than one fully loaded circuit. 
Thanks for keeping me on my toes. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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