# Forum Home Renovation Doors, Windows, Architraves & Skirts  Are lintels used above internal door frames?

## celestem

Hi
We are still progressing with our double brick renovation. 
I have googled extensively but still can't determine what is best practice in regard to reinforcing the brick above internal door frames. 
My brickie suggested that no lintels are used above internal door frames, but he could use some 6mm rods instead, along with some sand that would sit on top of the door frame.
The sand part sounds a bit dodgy to me, and in any case, from what I have read about the use of rods from a BCA extract, it says that there should be a minimum of 5 courses above the rods, and as standard door frames are 25 courses (rounded up from 2060) and standard ceilings are 28 courses, then rods shouldn't really be used. 
One existing internal door frame in our house is setup as attached.  Though I suspect that the door frame was installed after initial construction of our home by the previous owner. 
As we are renovating there will be a number of door frames, so exactly what is best practice in this regard? Lintels? Rods where there is a minimum of 5 courses above? Or just a door frame with no reinforcing above?

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## GeoffW1

> Hi
> We are still progressing with our double brick renovation. 
> I have googled extensively but still can't determine what is best practice in regard to reinforcing the brick above internal door frames. 
> My brickie suggested that no lintels are used above internal door frames, but he could use some 6mm rods instead, along with some sand that would sit on top of the door frame.
> The sand part sounds a bit dodgy to me, and in any case, from what I have read about the use of rods from a BCA extract, it says that there should be a minimum of 5 courses above the rods, and as standard door frames are 25 courses (rounded up from 2060) and standard ceilings are 28 courses, then rods shouldn't really be used. 
> One existing internal door frame in our house is setup as attached. Though I suspect that the door frame was installed after initial construction of our home by the previous owner. 
> As we are renovating there will be a number of door frames, so exactly what is best practice in this regard? Lintels? Rods where there is a minimum of 5 courses above? Or just a door frame with no reinforcing above?

  Hi, 
I think your brickie is unwise, I would specify lintel bars and stick to it. The top door frame should not ever bear loads. 
Internal walls in a double brick house are normally single skin, and may or may not bear some of the roof load. You would usually have a lintel bar above the opening.  
There are broadly 4 types of bar, FMS (flat bar), EA (equal angle), UA (unequal angle), and UB (universal beam), but for normal doorways you are interested in one of the first 2. 
You can see from this table,   Electronic Blueprint Building SpecificationsKnowledgeBase : Steel Lintels and Arch Bars 
out of AS3700 etc, that for a normal 820mm doorway you have a 100 x 10 FMS. If it supports any roof or top floor loads you go up to a 90 x 90 x 6 EA.  
Either should be simple for the brickie to deal with. Note that if you plan to render onto it you need to get a lintel bar intended for that. Ask the supplier. 
Cheers

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## celestem

> Hi, 
> I think your brickie is unwise, I would specify lintel bars and stick to it.  
> ...for a normal 820mm doorway you have a 100 x 10 FMS. If it supports any roof or top floor loads you go up to a 90 x 90 x 6 EA.

  Thanks for the feedback.  That is a great reference site too - one to book mark.
Are there any brickies who can provide input as well?

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## celestem

If we were to use a 90 x 90 x 6 lintel for the internal door frames, is it a problem for the hardwall plaster to stick to it, and stay stuck, or am I likely to see cracks outlining the lintel location in month/years to come? 
Is it better to notch the vertical face of the brick a little bit as in my initial attachment to recess the lintel to allow a thicker finish plaster coat?

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## GeoffW1

> If we were to use a 90 x 90 x 6 lintel for the internal door frames, is it a problem for the hardwall plaster to stick to it, and stay stuck, or am I likely to see cracks outlining the lintel location in month/years to come?

  There are 2 types for this, one an EA type with a sort of ribbing on it  http://www.treco.com.au/pdf/rendabar.pdf 
and on some brands the ribbing is actually small holes. 
Another is a masonry lintel which would be better I think for plaster coat as it would have a similar expansion rate. It is a terracotta beam filled with prestressed concrete, quite strong enough for your usage.  Buy 110x90mm Modular PGH Terracotta Lintel - LINTEL-MOD by Bricks the 
Cheers

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## GeoffW1

> Is it better to notch the vertical face of the brick a little bit as in my initial attachment to recess the lintel to allow a thicker finish plaster coat?

  Wouldn't hurt.

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## Craigoss

I used concrete lintels in my place, slightly cheaper than using steal. The renderers put some glue over them (bondcrete style), and used mesh and it came out looking fine.

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## autogenous

> My brickie suggested that no lintels are used above internal door frames, but he could use some 6mm rods instead, along with some sand that would sit on top of the door frame.
> The sand part sounds a bit dodgy to me, and in any case, from what I have read about the use of rods from a BCA extract, it says that there should be a minimum of 5 courses above the rods, and as standard door frames are 25 courses (rounded up from 2060) and standard ceilings are 28 courses, then rods shouldn't really be used.

  Your asking here, and you dont believe your brickie.  It sounds like he is a professional.   
He's suggested better than most.  Yes the sand is standard.  Yes most builders would only allow for Bricktor but rods are better. 
Years ago they just built over the top with sand, nothing else. 
If you have some longreach and rods use that over the frame instead of 2 course bricks if thats whats being used.. 
Im sorry I sounded a bit sharp.  Its just some people think they know better than the person they hired to do the job. 
The BCA is like the bible.  It is somewhat generalised so it can be interpreted in many ways; mostly the people who wrote it covering their a$$.  
Personally someone needs to get down where these things are published and give em all a clip round the ear and start on the New Testament and bring it into the modern era. 
Is there an engineers spec note explaining what is to be used for over the timber frames?

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## GeoffW1

> Yes the sand is standard.  
> Years ago they just built over the top with sand, nothing else.

  Hi, 
Well, could be, in some circles, but there is an Aust Std specifying what lintels to use. 
The last house we renovated was circa 1900, and it had lintels, albeit hardwood. Where those had broken down, the brickwork had as well.  
So I guess my viewpoint is just that if you want a solid job, less possibility of settlement and cracks, use a lintel beam. They are cheap enough. 
As for the tradie being ALWAYS right, and ALWAYS doing the best thing, um, well, I don't want to get into that further. 
Cheers

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## Chumley

> Its just some people think they know better than the person they hired to do the job.

  I don't think the tone of the opening post suggests they think they know more than their tradie.  Some research was done, some questions raised, and a second opinion sought.  Using this forum for this kind of query is what it is for. 
In any case, not all tradies are up to scratch and not all people who work in the building/renovating industry are tradies.  I can't see how looking for a second opinion would be a problem. 
Cheers,
Adam

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## celestem

> Is there an engineers spec note explaining what is to be used for over the timber frames?

  No - just that the brickwork needs to be accordance with AS 3700.

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## celestem

> Your asking here, and you dont believe your brickie.  It sounds like he is a professional.   
> [...] some people think they know better than the person they hired to do the job.

  I don't doubt that my brickie is a pro, but I am a subscriber to the Reagan philosophy - "Trust but verify", and a reputable builder once told me "Better or easier for them [tradesman], is often worse for you and if it looks wrong to you, it probably is". 
I have been burnt by poor workmanship before and like to minimise any future problems where possible.  A few $'s extra spent on lintels today could save me hours and hours of patching cracks in the future.   I know these cracks may not be structurally detrimental, but why have them if they can be easily avoided by lintels or rods. The former which could actually be easier to install even if they are more expensive.  
Back on topic - Lintels above internal door ways -  I have just learnt from a family member that no lintel/rods were used above an internal 2 x 720 french door frame they installed while renovating and they now have a vertical crack right in the middle, from frame to ceiling. 
At this stage, I will lean towards using the lintels where possible.  Or if rods can be used in accordance with the BCA extract *attached* then they could be an option.  Note the bearing requirements of rods, which means that I couldn't use them where two walls (90mm wide brick) of a wardrobe jut out from the back wall. http://www.renovateforum.com/images/.../2thumbsup.gif

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## Tools

Never heard of using bars in lieu of lintels. <ust local="" thing.="" for="" single="" door="" openings="" i="" would="" be="" using="" a="" flat="" bar.="">For single door openings I would be using flat bar and angle for wider openings.  
Tools</ust>

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## ScroozAdmin

> Never heard of using bars in lieu of lintels. <ust local="" thing.="" for="" single="" door="" openings="" i="" would="" be="" using="" a="" flat="" bar.="">For single door openings I would be using flat bar and angle for wider openings. 
> Tools</ust>

  +1, bricktor and bars laid in the joints generally just gives you reinforced joints, they rarely act the same as a lintel (unless specifically designed), I'd want a proper lintel every time, its not like there expensive, these guys seem to have a good range. 
why any self respecting builder would want to hold bricks up on thin 6mm rods is very strange, you should be able to remove the door frame and have no movement at all in the brickwork above.

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## autogenous

If its a timber frame the brickwork is layed with a layer of sand over the frame only.  That is standard practice for a number of reasons. 
If its a steel door frame then its filled with mud and laid over.   
In Perth where the person is enquiring its done in brick with a piece Briktor over unless otherwise specified by an engineer. 
If all the other builders in the state in probably 99% of cases do the same, you would think it would in accordance with  ASA 123456 what ever.   
In the case of clay soils it will be the engineer that specs any over and above the standard. 
So if 99% of builders have done this example does that mean they are out of spec? 
Id say your brickie has specified something that is over and above and adequate, pending you arent building on clay soils over a live river bed. 
ps. You can waste your money and get cracks if you wish but Id be reserving the lintels to cavity doors.

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## autogenous

Ill bit e a bit further.  If lintels are placed over the timber frame a number of things can happen.  If the door slams it will crack the solid plaster.  If the frames expands it can crack the solid plaster.  If the lintel is loaded it can crack the plaster. 
The layer of sand above the frame provides a break barrier so the frame doesn't adhere to the brickwork.  Its an odd one that many contemplate.  In theory the brickwork should be self supportive once the mortar has dried. 
None of the roof structure should be loaded inside 4 inches either side of the frame opening with toms,  UB's or hangers.   
In the past the mortar would have been 1:3 lime.  Modern mortar is 6 sand, 1 cement, 1 lime.  Its properties are more laterally stronger and less susceptible to water damage. 
At the end of the day the target life span of a house is 25 years; any more is a bonus.

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## ScroozAdmin

> If lintels are placed over the timber frame a number of things can happen.  If the door slams it will crack the solid plaster.  If the frames expands it can crack the solid plaster.  If the lintel is loaded it can crack the plaster.

  never heard of that so don't know what you mean tbh, a lintel doesn't sit on a frame so there would normally be an air gap between the top of the casing and the bottom of the lintel anyway, covered by the arcs, as theres no way a brickie will be or should be mm perfect on his coursing over a full door height on non facework.

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## celestem

[QUOTE
At the end of the day the target life span of a house is 25 years; any more is a bonus.[/QUOTE] 
You have got to be kidding me! 25yrs!! People are very short sighted if they build for just 25yrs.   I think one is much better off spending a bit more today and build a quality character home that will last 50-75 yrs at least. Do it once and do it right I say.

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