# Forum Home Renovation Roofing  A ? about roof flashing

## Mahaylea

Hi,  
I was wondering if you could tell me about the roof flashing. I have recently nearly completed a reno, it is joined on the back of my existing house, and it is 2 story. Where the existing house meets the reno brickwalls we have to use some kind of flashing to seal the join to prevent water getting in. I am of the understanding you cut a line in the brickwork paralel to the existing roof and put the flashing into that cut line and lay it onto the tiles? Does it just sit on the tiles? How far up the brickwork away from the existing roof should the flashing start? And how far across the tiles should the flashing lay to prevent water damage? 
Thanks

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## Skew ChiDAMN!!

> I am of the understanding you cut a line in the brickwork paralel to the existing roof and put the flashing into that cut line and lay it onto the tiles? Does it just sit on the tiles? How far up the brickwork away from the existing roof should the flashing start? And how far across the tiles should the flashing lay to prevent water damage?s

  Personally, I believe the old lead flashing beats the new trend to colourbond stuff hands down, although it's both harder to come by and more expensive.  IMHO it's worth it, though. 
I use an angle grinder to cut about an inch into the mortar bed _at least_ one course of bricks higher than the roof line.  With lead flashing, I fold back about 1/2" of the edge to be inserted, not all the way but enough so that it "wedges in" to the groove I've cut.  A bead of silicone in the groove first helps. 
Yes, flashing just sits on the tiles... lead flashing is moulded down to the tile surface with, preferably, a wooden tool (I use the end of a hammer handle  :Rolleyes:  to form a better seal.   Silicone on top of the tile helps but isn't necessary.  When joining lengths of flashing, use a torch to fuse the lead or a bead of silastic and rivets for colourbond.  (Rivet over a gully in the tiles, not a peak!  :Wink:  ) 
How much of the tile should it cover?  This really depends on the fall of your roof... the flatter the fall, the further you need to cover.  I'd say 6" average... check how far your tiles overlap each other, double that and that would be the *absolute* minimum for it to work.  How far you'll actually cover depends on the width of your flashing and how far up the wall it runs... unless you've had some custom colourbond made up.   
Really, it's probably better to get a licensed plumber to do this.  If the plumber falls off the roof, breaks some tiles, you discover water damage from a botched job a few years down the line or, in a worst case scenario, all three  :Eek:  it's _his_ problem, not yours.  Look at the cost as buying insurance.   
I should, at this point, say I am *not* a plumber.  I do *not* regularly flash rooves.  I am *not* aware of current building regs on flashing.  However, in my defense I'll say that I'm a JOAT who goes around fixing messes left by cowboys and AFAIK none of my customers have had to call out someone to fix _my_ fixes.   :Biggrin:   (Although I have had some ask for partial refunds.  "I didn't know you'd do it so quickly."   :Annoyed:   :Shock:  )

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## bricks

That up there is a pretty good way to do it, i think colourbond is harder because its not as soft. just follow the brick course. 
I dont use silicone if i can avoid it can cause sweating mould and rust. If you do buy one with a neutral cure most other silicones are acidic and will take the protection from sheet roofs, dont know what they do to tiles. 
Lead is easier if your a novice because there wont be any joins.( coulor bond is cut and shut, Lead isnt that much more expensive than colour bond, but it will cost you 
I buy 300 wide rolls and dont trim them, just use the whole width,  
when you put the folded end in the brick course, tap it in firm with a thin WIDE, blunt chisel like a brick bolster to get it in there good, make it hard to pull out. Start at the middle, work to each end.  
I use a rubber mallet, gently.

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## pawnhead

> Lead is easier if your a novice because there wont be any joins.( coulor bond is cut and shut, Lead isnt that much more expensive than colour bond, but it will cost you

  I think you’re supposed to lap join it every 1.5metres for expansion, and I reckon it would be a bit dearer than colour bond unless you used the cheap 15kg stuff that’s not rated for exposure.
I just make up lead wedges out of small rolled up strips of lead, beaten flat with a hammer, and punched into the gap above the flashing in the slot. It holds it in place whilst the silicone goes off, especially if you’re working on an angle flashing and you’re not stepping it with the brick courses.

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## Skew ChiDAMN!!

> I dont use silicone if i can avoid it can cause sweating mould and rust. If you do buy one with a neutral cure most other silicones are acidic and will take the protection from sheet roofs, dont know what they do to tiles.

  Agreed, that's a must.  Even if it has no effect on tile glazing, it does affect the flashing over time.  I should've mentioned it.   :Doh:

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## ausdesign

I've got a dislike for stepped flashings [visually] 
Whats the thoughts from you guys as to the pros & cons.

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## pawnhead

> I've got a dislike for stepped flashings [visually] 
> Whats the thoughts from you guys as to the pros & cons.

  Well it's the only way to do it if you really want the job done properly. Remove the bricks in two brick sections. Install a trayed over-flashing that spills into the next lower one behind the wall. Replace the bricks, wait for a week for the mortar to set, then remove the ones you haven't yet done to finish the job with a weephole at the bottom in the returning wall. 
Aesthetically I like the look of a stepped flashing so long as they've taken the time to get all the steps even and parallel to the pitch, and they've tapered the bottom in a straight line at the finished roof level, with the under-flashing emerging across the tiles. When I see it it tells me that they may not have cut any corners by just cutting a slot with a grinder, and if they've done it properly then no water will travel down the wall underneath, unlike just doing a grinder cut slot.
I also prefer the look as well though. 
It's the way it was done in the past, and it's the way it's supposed to be done for mine. 
Would you cover up a perfectly executed japanese dovetail joint with a piece of veneer to make the piece look sleeker, and more [visually] appealing? 
I wouldn't.

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## journeyman Mick

It's not often that I would agree with a post pretty much word for word, but what John's said it. :2thumbsup:   
Mick

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## bricks

Personally i wouldnt feel comfortable taking bricks out of a perfectly good wall, lead will fill the gap nicely if doubled or tripled over and "knocked in"
With lead flashing, it streaches, moulds and shapes to whatever you hammer it into, as for expansion i dont think it actually expands that much lengthways, ususlly the ridgid metals expand and the softer ones dont,  
Id try to avoid a join in anything where possible, your only introducing another weak point or possible leak IMO. 
With anything Im not an expert at I take my time and dont rush it, Usually repairs = longer time than to install properly once.

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## pawnhead

> Personally i wouldnt feel comfortable taking bricks out of a perfectly good wall, lead will fill the gap nicely if doubled or tripled over and "knocked in"

  You might also feel comfortable with water soaking in and traveling down through the wall to your new extension below, peeling the paintwork and growing mould on the wall. Or you could just silicone the whole wall above, or clad it with something to stop it getting wet.
Of course chopping the bricks out is a pain in the @rse, but it *is* the proper way to do it.  

> With lead flashing, it streaches, moulds and shapes to whatever you hammer it into, as for expansion i dont think it actually expands that much lengthways, ususlly the ridgid metals expand and the softer ones dont,  
> Id try to avoid a join in anything where possible, your only introducing another weak point or possible leak IMO.

  I'm just going by the instructions that are written on the label when you buy a roll of lead. I'm pretty sure that it says '1.5 metre maximum length'. I'm almost certain that it's not more than 2 metres, but of course you could ignore the instructions and roll it out as long as you want and see what happens.
Of course if you want to do a cowboy job and just butt the joints with silicone instead of overlapping them and sealing it up, then yes, I'd certainly recommend not cutting it into 1.5 metre strips. 
None of my flashings leak and they're done as per manufacturers specifications (usually  :Wink:  )

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## Tools

> It's the way it was done in the past, and it's the way it's supposed to be done for mine. 
>  .

  I have never seen it done this way. 
Tools

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## pawnhead

> I have never seen it done this way. 
> Tools

  You've obviously never inspected a semi detached house with a parapet wall, or installed a raked flashing properly then. How would you install a raked flashing on a parapet wall that was built with dry pressed clay bricks?
Clay bricks are quite porous, and so is the mud that's used between *any* bricks, so how are you going to stop water soaking into the wall and traveling down through the brickwork to the internal wall below?
If bricks were waterproof then there'd be no need for cavities and we could all save a lot of money. 
Ask Al. He's a brickie and I'm sure that he's installed lots of flashings in his life.

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## pawnhead

Google turned this up: -     

> Introduction: Every stepped and every staggered gable abutment must be so constructed to prevent rainwater and dampness from penetrating below the abutting roof line. This is because the external skin changes status below the roof line and becomes an internal skin. Accordingly, any preformed system must meet three basic requirements:
> 1 It must prevent dampness from penetrating below the critical stepped roof line.
> 2 It must externally weatherproofs and flash the physical roof/masonry intersection.
> 3 The arrangement must always protect the inside skin also from becoming damp. http://www.cavitytrays.co.uk/damp_products.php?id=typex

  That's a preformed flashing tray, but they are generally formed on site out of lead.

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## bricks

Not trying to start an argument here pawny but how do you take out every brick along a wall line and not have it fall over, you would never get the same strength back into the wall pushing the bricks back into their slots. and youd have to wait for each section to dry before starting the next. really mate im not trying to argue but i cant see how youd do it. 
mate if you have your flashing extending up the wall at least to the first course, water wont get to the bricks, thats part of why flashing is there. 
not trying to argue.

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## pawnhead

> Not trying to start an argument here pawny but how do you take out every brick along a wall line and not have it fall over, you would never get the same strength back into the wall pushing the bricks back into their slots. and youd have to wait for each section to dry before starting the next. really mate im not trying to argue but i cant see how youd do it.

  As I've said, You take two out and leave two, then take another two out and leave two. You grout them in by pushing the grout in with a plugging chisel or the like, then you wait a week untill you do the rest. It's actually better to take two out and leave the next four, and do the job in three stages: -  

> Well it's the only way to do it if you really want the job done properly. Remove the bricks in two brick sections. Install a trayed over-flashing that spills into the next lower one behind the wall. Replace the bricks, wait for a week for the mortar to set, then remove the ones you haven't yet done to finish the job with a weephole at the bottom in the returning wall.

   

> mate if you have your flashing extending up the wall at least to the first course, water wont get to the bricks, thats part of why flashing is there. 
> not trying to argue.

  Well you can do your jobs as dodgy as you want, and cut as many corners as you want. It doesn't worry me at all. I'm just trying to tell you how it should be done if you want it done properly.  :Wink:   

> Introduction: *Every stepped and every staggered gable abutment must be so constructed to prevent rainwater and dampness from penetrating below the abutting roof line. This is because the external skin changes status below the roof line and becomes an internal skin. Accordingly, any preformed system must meet three basic requirements:
> 1 It must prevent dampness from penetrating below the critical stepped roof line.
> 2 It must externally weatherproofs and flash the physical roof/masonry intersection.
> 3 The arrangement must always protect the inside skin also from becoming damp.* http://www.cavitytrays.co.uk/damp_products.php?id=typex

  You *can't* guarantee that you'll fulfill those requirements with a grinder cut slot.   
edit: - I worked on a job in South Sydney where I had to do exactly that. Cut out the bricks in stages because the builder installed a saw cut flashing and the internal wall below was damp. The owner wouldn't accept the builder treating the outside wall with a silicone waterproofing. 
He insisted that it be done *properly* so that any water striking the wall above the flashing, wouldn't soak into the bricks and mortar, and travel down the wall, around the saw cut (which *does not* penetrate the wall), and end up dripping in his power point where his plasma TV is plugged in downstairs.

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## bricks

[quote=pawnhead;459548] It's actually better to take two out and leave the next four, and do the job in three stages:  Well you can do your jobs as dodgy as you want, and cut as many corners as you want. It doesn't worry me at all. I'm just trying to tell you how it should be done if you want it done properly.  :Wink: 
quote] 
Pawny insults are not nessecary mate. 
If youve done it like that, and it works, do it. I'm not the authority on what you can and can't do.  
Your more than welcome to offer your opinion, I will listen as everyone else will. Insults are'nt warranted here at all ever. 
This bloke now has two options for doing it himself, Its up to him which he chooses, or he may choose a plumber.  
Everytime someone posts a solution on this thread either you or Silent C have your little two cents, and your more than demeaning when you do it. You pigheadedly enforce your ideas on everyone and basically make them look like a halfwit if they dont. 
Anyone who has the brains to carry out their own building works, should have enough brains to find a solution that works, loose the attitude babe.

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## ausdesign

It was only a little question guys  :Doh:

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## pawnhead

> Pawny insults are not nessecary mate.

  Well you can take it as an insult if you want, but if you do then you obviously have a problem with comprehension. You see I wasnt criticising you at all. I was criticising your suggestion of the proper procedures for installing a flashing, and I said that it was dodgy and it was cutting corners and I stand by that assertion, just as you stand by this: -  

> Some people genuinly think that way,

  You said that about my suggestion to use duct tape to patch up a gas service that I may cut through. Now I could take that as an insult, or I can take it the way it was intended. As good advice against the dodgy procedures that I was advocating. 
You have a problem admitting when youre wrong and youve come on these forums as a cheeky know it all who can teach everyone a thing or two. Thats an insult. Im attacking you personally now. Can you see the difference? Ill back it up by quoting you and highlighting my evidence in bold: -  

> Silent C, 
> If you click on your own link, go to the top of the page and click water supply you will come to a page that has the products they use for water supply i dont see pex pipe here, i do see iplex pro fit which is polybutelyne. 
> If you go to plumbing you will see Iplex future 1 pipe which is a pex gas pipe.  
> Future 2 is a new product and i have never ever ever seen it in a domestic situation, only comercial. 
> Pex pipe in australia is really only used for gas or comercial installations such as hospitals *which you so kindly neglected to quote*.  
> Jessies pipes are black, Iplex pro fit is grey,Iplex future 2 is grey, what he has is Rehau pipe, which once again is polybutelyne.  
> Pex wont eliminate Poly because it costs more, plumbing ( like everything) is a profit driven industry if it costs more it aint being used.

  You were *wrong* in that post and you were being condescending towards Silent C in your tone. You still wont admit that you were wrong though will you? And Im sure that youll never admit that you are wrong in giving people advice on the proper way to install a flashing.   

> I worked on a job in South Sydney where I had to do exactly that. Cut out the bricks in stages because the builder installed a saw cut flashing and the internal wall below was damp. The owner wouldn't accept the builder treating the outside wall with a silicone waterproofing. 
> He insisted that it be done *properly* so that any water striking the wall above the flashing, wouldn't soak into the bricks and mortar, and travel down the wall, around the saw cut (which *does not* penetrate the wall), and end up dripping in his power point where his plasma TV is plugged in downstairs.

  Youre advice on how to install a flashing properly could end up costing someone a lot of money and Im just trying to tell them that its dodgy.  
Answer me this. How are you going to stop water soaking into the wall and travelling down past the saw cut to an internal wall below?
If you can find any official documentation, backing up the method of installing saw cut flashings over internal walls then Ill eat my words and admit that I am wrong. It wont stop me doing it in such a way that its waterproof underneath though.  

> You pigheadedly enforce your ideas on everyone and basically make them look like a halfwit if they dont.

  Now I could take being called pig headed as an insult, but I believe that you should take a look in the mirror sonny Jim. Im not enforcing my ideas on anyone. They can do it your dodgy way if they want, and I said as much. I give people enough credit to determine for themselves the proper way to do things.
If they want to listen to a smart @rse fool then its up to them.  

> Anyone who has the brains to carry out their own building works, should have enough brains to find a solution that works, loose the attitude babe.

  Good advice there. Why dont you follow it, or is it a case of Take my advice. Im not using it. 
I'd still like an answer to the question I posed Mr know it all.

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## bricks

To answer your question pawny, i firmly believe that if you use the saw cut method your wall wont be water damaged, the amount of water if any that gets through is going to be comparable to the amount that may get through the joins in your method. Absolutely bugger all which will be dried up in a properly ventilated cavity. And if its done right i dont beleive any water will get through with your way or mine, i just dont think removing bricks is a good idea. Ill try to find a tech drwing for you ok. 
As for the pex arguement, i never said it wasnt used for water or that it couldnt be, only that my belief was that p.b was a more likely product, pex is used for water in hospitals and comercial, in domestic housing maybe, but definately not here in adelaide due to the cost. As for the website it only re-enforces my point that Iplex pro fit p.b. is used in water supply and this new gear the K 2 can only be accesed by going to the entire product list. If this K2 pex was the generally accepted product for domestic water supply, dont you think that it would be on water supply or plumbing pages instead of Iplex profit which i believe is on both? 
Seriously mate im not here to argue, i dont see the need to fill theese pages with useless banter between you and myself, if you have an alternative solution then post it, i will do same.

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## journeyman Mick

Bricks,
I think you're missing the point entirely WRT the flashing. 
You have an exterior brick wall, doesn't matter if it's double brick or brick veneer. 
You add an extension to the house, against the brick wall.
The external brick wall is now an internal wall below the roof line.
If the top section of this wall is above the roofline of the new roof then you need to stop moisture from travelling down the brick work.
You can do this via Pawnhead's method, which is *a* right way to do it.
Other ways to that will fulfill the waterproof requirement: 
1)Overflash the entire above-roof section of the wall with the top of the flashing butted into the soffit and sealed with silicone or similar. 
2)Batten out the wall and cover with hardiplanks or some other system which will give you a waterproof wall. 
3)Paint the wall with two coats of a silasec/cement/water slurry followed by a couple of coats of a good quality paint. 
Option 1 is pretty ugly but will work.
Option 2 would be out of keeping with the rest of the building and would need repainting eventually, besides being almost as much work as the stepped lead flashing.
Option 3 would be out of keeping with the rest of the building (unless you also painted all the rest of the brickwork) and would only last as long as the paint system. It would also rely (presumably) on a flashing inserted into a cut in the bricks and thus on the life of the sealant used in this cut. 
A stepped lead flashing, once fitted, would last the life of the building, have no maintenance issues and be entirely in keeping with the original structure. 
Mick

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## journeyman Mick

Bricks,
In my (admittedly regional) experience Pex is a generally accepted product for water supply. Possibly it's not on the website you mention because they haven't updated it. I reckon I'm a pretty good tradesman and have always tried to gain as much knowledge on products and techniques used in all facets of the building trade. I'm always prepared to learn something new though and am happy to admit that I know less than I'd like to and certainly only a fraction of the whole. 
Mick

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## pawnhead

> To answer your question pawny, i firmly believe that if you use the saw cut method your wall wont be water damaged,

  I’m not lying to you when I relate the story of what happened to a builder that I once worked for. 
It wasn’t a case of a lower floor extension as Mick has described. It was an upper floor extension. 
An existing single brick internal wall was extended up through the roof, forming a new outside wall upstairs. The bricklayers could have easily installed trayed lead flashings in the wall as they built it, but the builder decided that it would be easier and cheaper (less lead) to install it in a saw cut afterwards. I installed it myself in a 20mm saw cut and siliconed it in as waterproof as anyone would be able to get it. A few weeks later after a heavy rain, the internal wall below began weeping. There were no leaks in the flashing and the water wasn't pouring in anywhere. The water was coming from the wall itself. There were visible water droplets forming on the wall. The builder offered to treat the upper wall with a clear silicone product, but the owner refused. I would have refused as well if it were me, as it would obviously break down after a while, so the next day I started chopping bricks out, two at a time.
It was an expensive exercise for the builder who was trying to save a few bucks, but it solved the problem. 
So again I’ll say that if you’re comfortable with installing a saw cut flashing then go for it.  

> the amount of water if any that gets through is going to be comparable to the amount that may get through the joins in your method.

  There should be no water at all getting past a properly installed flashing.   

> Seriously mate im not here to argue, i dont see the need to fill theese pages with useless banter between you and myself, if you have an alternative solution then post it, i will do same.

  Neither am I, but when I see someone insisting that sub-standard building practices are A OK, then I will argue the point till I’m blue in the face. I’m simply trying to give people the right advice.
As for the slanderous remarks in my previous post, I’ll retract them, even though I consider them to be a measured response to the tone of your post. 
I’m happy to shake hands and keep debating saw cut flashings, but don't expect me to allow dodgy advice to go unanswered. You can call that pig headed if you like.

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## bricks

Pawny (handshake), 
Your advise is good, your method will produce a better result,  
I will try it next time, ( seriously i will), when you put the mortar back into the bricks im assuming that you mud the brick on all sides and push it into the gap. Then you push mortar in to the joint to ensure its full.  
serious, how do you stop mortar pushing right through to cavity ( or is it not a problem)
How do you mix your mud, do you buy premix mortar, add anything to it. 
Im serious ill do it your way next time and see how it goes.

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## pawnhead

> Pawny (handshake), 
> Your advise is good, your method will produce a better result,  
> I will try it next time, ( seriously i will), when you put the mortar back into the bricks im assuming that you mud the brick on all sides and push it into the gap. Then you push mortar in to the joint to ensure its full.  
> serious, how do you stop mortar pushing right through to cavity ( or is it not a problem)
> How do you mix your mud, do you buy premix mortar, add anything to it. 
> Im serious ill do it your way next time and see how it goes.

  It was a long time ago now and I can't quite recall what mix I made. I can remember that It was a mongrel of a job and it took ages though. I'm pretty sure that I actually did it in three stages because each tray has to overlap the next one below so the water running behind the wall spills from one tray into the next. 
You wouldn't put any bycol in the mix because it would become too plastic. You'd mix it reasonably dry, bed the bottom then slide the brick in and drop it down. Jiggle it around so it settles where you want it. Using a trowel upside down with mortar on it, you'd push the mortar into the top joint with a plugging chisel or the like, taking care not to push it too far so it doesn't drop behind into the flashing tray. You'd let it go off for a bit whilst you go to the next section, then you'd come back and push some more in gently. As you get closer to filling the joint, you can press a bit harder without pushing it through. Fortunately we hadn't yet lined the inside stud wall, so it was easy to clear any mud out of the trays. If we'd lined it then the job would be more difficult. You'd have to bed the bottom with just the right amount of mud, then wait for it to go off. Then bed the top and hose it through an open perp to clear the trays. The last job would be to fill all the perps from the bottom up, and run a hose in the very top perp for a while. The water should cascade down through all the trays and emerge from a weephole at the bottom in the returning wall. It should clear any mud that's in the trays.
You'd have to allow for the time if you were quoting a job of Mick's description, but I wouldn't do it any other way apart from the other suggestions that Mick has made. A saw cut just isn't good enough unless it's just an external pergola roof or the like.
The problem might not be so bad with some modern extruded bricks because they're not nearly as porous as a dry pressed clay brick, but the cement beds will still conduct water downwards so there'd be no guarantees and I'd say so if I was quoting a job. I'd tell them that if it doesn't work, then they'd have to take up one of Mick's other suggestions at extra cost, or perhaps just line the internal wall with plastic, batten it and line it with villaboard with the back side painted. It wouldn't matter if the brickwork was damp then I don't imagine.

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## bricks

Sounds like you had problem with water getting through the wall, not through the flashing. But heres an average drawing of how i do it for you to look at.  
The slot is at least 40 mm into the brick, i cut it with a grinder and then tidy it up with a pointy chisel scrapped along the groove. ( i dont know what the chisel is called).
I roll up the lead that goes inside the slot ( rolled side up), so it fills the slot ( 2-3 folds), then i firmly belt it in with a wide bolster chisel. 
I brush inside the slot with a wet paint brush, then plug it with Dry-ish mortar and bag it off with a rag, or a glove.
Keep in mind i try to use one full sheet for a whole flashing so no it isnt that easy.
I've not had a call back on a job where i have followed this method.
The idea is that any water entering the join will not be able to go over the upturned lead roll and will travel back out allong the flashing.
I have had call backs due an error by me, ussually involving a tear in the flashing when dressing it in. ( now i use a wider bolster this has not re-occurred), or a join that has opened up ( due to heat mostly), i now lapp the join for 300mm and doesnt seem to happen anymore. 
I've never seen water go through bricks before, have herd the only way to truly fix is with a surface sealant ( just what ive herd ,not a basis for new religion).  
Cheers for the chat now i know how to fix a badly leaking wall.

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## pawnhead

> Keep in mind i try to use one full sheet for a whole flashing so no it isnt that easy.

  Well that's the first thing you've done wrong, because every roll of lead that I've seen has a label that says it's not to be installed in lengths over 1.5 meters.  

> I've never seen water go through bricks before, have herd the only way to truly fix is with a surface sealant ( just what ive herd ,not a basis for new religion).

  Why do you think so many people build cavity walls and brick veneer houses if bricks are waterproof? Why do you think cavity brick ties have a drip groove in them? Why do you think veneer ties either have a drip groove, or are supposed to be installed with a fall to the outside brickwork? Why do you think that bricklayers are supposed to hose out the cavities between brick skins? Why do you think that you're not supposed to install electrical cables in a cavity? 
You'd certainly save a lot of money if you could just do away with double skin construction. 
As for your methods, well I wouldn't want to be anywhere near you when you install a flashing because in that drawing of yours you're cutting away the mortar past the axis of symmetry, and there's a good chance that you'd end up buried in bricks. Apart from removing most of the mortar joint, the centre of gravity of the wall above is over the slot that you've cut. On top of that you start bashing away at the joint with a bolster to get the lead in.  :Eek:  Is the silicone that you squeeze in there supposed to hold the wall up?
Even then you're still leaving some of the mortar there aren't you? Mortar and bricks are porous so the water will still get around the flashing as I've illustrated here: -   
I'd advise you to make your grinder cut *all the way through the wall*, then insert your flashing. If you make the cut wide enough, you won't have to use a bolster to get the flashing in.  :Wink:  
Probably best to install some skyhooks in the upper part of the wall first though. They may stock them at Bunnings.  :Hahaha:

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## Skew ChiDAMN!!

> Well that's the first thing you've done wrong, because every roll of lead that I've seen has a label that says it's not to be installed in lengths over 1.5 meters.

  I guess that depends one where you buy your lead roll...  'cos the rolls _I_ buy have no such label on 'em.  Just brown gaffer tape holding 'em together.   :Confused:   And yes, they're from a big-name building/plumbing supply.   

> Why do you think that bricklayers are supposed to hose out the cavities between brick skins? Why do you think that you're not supposed to install electrical cables in a cavity?

  All I can say to that is, there's an awful lot of brickies and sparkies around here who apparently don't agree with you.  
I'm not saying your method is "wrong"... far from it in fact, I'd prefer my home flashed your way for obvious reasons!   :Biggrin:   However, after asking around on a few sites recently, the consensus is that for an addition/extension most builders will use bricks' (and my) method.  It may not trap moisture penetrating the brickwork but it meets current building code and is perfectly legal. 
In a _new_ construction they'll use your method (And, I suspect, even then only on the more expensive buildings or the closely scrutinised) but the average home-owner just isn't willing to pay for the extra labour of your method for an extension.   
I'll repeat, this isn't _my_ opinion, this is from several different builders I work with.   :Shrug:

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## journeyman Mick

Bricks,
this is not a personal attack, but I find it hard to believe that someone who calls themselves "bricks" and who has attended a builder's licensing class doesn't understand the basic limitations of bricks. As Pawnhead has pointed out, they are not waterproof which is why there are no single skin brick residences being built today. Your method does not guarantee that lower sections of the wall will not get damp. If they do get damp and you have to go back for warranty repairs, well the you've just blown any profit not to mention giving you a bad name. 
Mick

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## pawnhead

> I guess that depends one where you buy your lead roll... 'cos the rolls I buy have no such label on 'em. Just brown gaffer tape holding 'em together.  And yes, they're from a big-name building/plumbing supply.

  Your big-name suppliers assume that you know how to install flashings, because I can distinctly remember reading it on the label of several rolls in the past, and I’ve always followed those procedures: -  

> LEAD Action News vol 6 no 3, 1998  ISSN 1324-6011 
> temperature variations can cause a 2m length of lead [flashing] to expand by more than 3mm. If this expansion and contraction cannot occur freely, lead may lift and buckle. 
> "Further movement will then cause bending about the buckle until, ultimately, fatigue occurs and the lead sheet cracks.  http://www.lead.org.au/lanv6n3/lan6n3-15.html

  I've seen many old lead flashings that are cracked, and the crack has invariably been where there is a buckle in the sheet.  :Tongue:   

> All I can say to that is, there's an awful lot of brickies and sparkies around here who apparently don't agree with you.

   Well I’ll relate another story to you. I’m not making this up just to support my argument. All I can do is to swear on my father’s grave that it’s true. 
A job that I was working on developed a damp spot in a part of an internal brick wall at the bottom. After the builder removed the bricks where the problem had occurred, the only possible source of the dampness was determined to be the electrical cable that was installed vertically where the dampness was occurring. After the electrician had re-routed the cable in a chased slot on the inside of the wall, the problem was solved.  
This is the very reason that I mentioned it in the first place. Because installing a cable in a cavity had cost a builder that I had worked for time and money. It’s a real live case against the practice. I’d advise an electrician, if he were installing his cables in a cavity, to pull them taught so that they don’t come in contact with the outside skin. 
Of course I realise that it’s common practice to install cabling in a cavity and it would be very rare to get any problems with it. However there can be no disputing the fact that it is also possible that such a cable, if touching the outside skin could conduct water towards the inside of the house. It’s a simple case of physics, capillary action, and the laws of gravity.     

> I'm not saying your method is "wrong"... far from it in fact, I'd prefer my home flashed your way for obvious reasons! However, after asking around on a few sites recently, the consensus is that for an addition/extension most builders will use bricks' (and my) method. It may not trap moisture penetrating the brickwork but it meets current building code and is perfectly legal.

   Of course. And I realize that it’s common practice, however you’d be very foolhardy if you didn’t advise your client that there is a distinct possibility that the wall underneath could become damp, and you offer no guarantees that the saw cut method of flashing will leave them with a satisfactory outcome. I’d have it written in any contract that I sign, and I'd advise the client to query any other competing quotes on their methods of installing the flashing in question. Otherwise you may find yourself facing expensive restitutions, paid for out of your own pocket. 
I stand by my assertion that any practice that doesn’t guarantee a waterproof internal wall is dodgy. Of course it’s up to the client whether they are willing to go to the extra expense of ensuring a dry home.    
On a related topic of installing flashings, I believe that anyone who would stand under a brick wall, and cut past the centre of gravity, is a *half-wit*.  
It’s not only dodgy, but it’s downright *dangerous*.  sookyala, and sorbolene time for someone now I'd guess  :Hahaha:

----------


## bricks

Hi pawny, just an up date, 
Ive spoken to three builders and one engineer since the weekend, none of them will let me do it your way, 
The questions posed by them about the method are listed below.
( These are not my questions)  
With the saw cut method the wall still retains a bond through the course above and below the flashing, with the step flashing you use, the higher and lower bricks are compleatly separated, Whats to stop the wall sliding during high winds? I pointed out that the bricks were tied in to prevent this but they will not accept that, nor the top plate of the roof construction.  
Are you 100% positive that the product you have shown is a post fit product, they all seem to belive that a preformed tray would have to be installed with the bricks, similar to damp corsing. 
They all belive the wall will be weaker as a result of removing and re-inserting bricks. I also pointed out that windows and air-conditioners were bricked up on a daily basis. The general reply was that the lintel origionally installed would be left in place to retain strength. 
I have genuinly put your  ideas forward to builders, I will continue to find out about the method, I wont use it until I know its ok.  
I am not allowed to use the method until I am willing to provide a Structural Warranty for the wall and connected roof. 
You can obviously post answers to the above questions, I will be posting them with my Master Builders Association and The Plumbing Industry Association here in S.A.  
Ill keep you informed when I recive and answer. :Confused:   
Thanks for the chat,

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## pawnhead

> Hi pawny, just an up date, 
> I’ve spoken to three builders and one engineer since the weekend, none of them will let me do it your way,

  I was following the builder’s orders and I’ll admit that there was no engineer consulted at the time, however I feel that if there was, then he would have approved a way to install the flashings as a retrofit. I’ve installed a few steel engineered columns and a common procedure is to place a small packer in the centre of the column and grout the base in afterwards with either a non-shrink grout or s 3:1 sharp sand cement mix. Perhaps he would have specified that. 
I’ve also retro fitted a steel corner structure under a two story double brick terrace house in Paddington. The whole lower storey Southern elevation was removed as well as the return on the Western side. From memory it would have been over three metres South and five or six metres North. After installing needles on acrow props, we removed the lower brickwork and installed a heavy steel portal frame that increased the ground floor area by a metre to the West and about three metres to the South from memory. We installed cedar rafters and we flashed it with lead going up under the old cavity above. The bricklayers came along and bricked up on top of the flashing, sliding their bricks under the old wall and they pointed up the gap by pushing mud into the joint with pointing trowels and plugging chisels. Then we installed a glass roof on top of the rafters. The structure was designed by an engineer who certified it on completion. There have been numerous other occasions where I’ve installed engineered beams up to six metres long under an existing wall in the same manner. They have all been approved, but of course your engineers may recommend to tear the wall down and re-build it. I’d recommend that you get another engineer then, because I’m sure that I could find one that would allow you to grout the bricks in. Regardless of which way would have been recommended, the wall simply could not stay the way it was with a saw-cut flashing. 
It leaked and therefore it was dodgy. There was no other way of fixing it to the customer’s satisfaction than to install a trayed flashing as it has been done for hundreds of years. 
Nevertheless I can sleep well at night, because as you say, the wall is tied back to the framework and the mud was well packed in along the length. I was working as a carpenter at the time and I had no licence at all. I’ve never done an apprenticeship, and I was yet to sit for the builder’s course at that time. I’ll agree that it _may_ be dodgy to perform the work without engineer’s approval, but I won’t agree that it couldn’t be done that way, and I'm certain that that wall won't go anywhere. 
On the other hand, if I built something like this then I may not be able to sleep as well. Especially if you did use silicone in the joint. If you showed that to an engineer, I reckon that he’d either have a fit, or he’d have a fit of laughter thinking it was a joke, and I’m not talking about my mate Humpty. If you recommend a minimum of 40mm, then that drawing of yours looks like you’ve cut 50mm into a metric modular brick of 90X190X290 and filled it with silicone. Of course if it is tied back as well then it may be alright and you may find an engineer that would approve it, but personally I don’t think any engineer would allow you to go past the centre of gravity of the wall. 
I’d be interested in finding out how deep they’d allow you to cut if you could ask them, and what their opinions are on the countless buildings around the place where old brickwork has been grouted from underneath on top of a flashing. Of course they may just refuse to take on a job like that and leave it to someone else. But I can assure you that there’s many examples in Sydney of new shopfronts with large clear openings being installed under preserved historic buildings.   

> Thanks for the chat,

  Thanks to you too. It’s interesting. BTW don’t take Humpty too seriously. It’s just the internet and I’m just trying to rev you up bricksy.  :Wink:

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## pawnhead

I can't find a detail on the net, so I've sketched up a typical brick veneer set up. Click to enlarge: -   
You'll notice that the frame ties should be installed on an angle to prevent any water running down the inside of the outside skin, from getting to the inside studwork. Bricklayers must hose any spilled  mud out through the weep holes to prevent it building up and conducting water inside. The weep holes should stay clear for future water penetration. 
I wonder what stops the bricks from sliding around on the flashing since your engineers don't like that sort of thing?

----------


## bricks

> You have a problem admitting when you’re wrong and you’ve come on these forums as a cheeky know it all who can teach everyone a thing or two. That’s an insult. I’m attacking you personally now. Can you see the difference?   *If you can find any official documentation, backing up the method of installing saw cut flashings over internal walls then I’ll eat my words and admit that I am wrong.*  
> If they want to listen to a smart @rse fool then it’s up to them.
> Good advice there. Why don’t you follow it, or is it a case of “Take my advice. I’m not using it.” 
> I'd still like an answer to the question I posed Mr know it all.

   

> "sub-standard building practices"

   

> "someone who calls themselves "bricks" and who has attended a builder's licensing class doesn't understand the basic limitations of bricks."

   

> It’s a simple case of physics, capillary action, and the laws of gravity.

   

> don't expect me to allow dodgy advice to go unanswered

  .  

> You have a problem admitting when you’re wrong

  The Engineer from the Master Builders got back to me.  http://www.australinsulation-vic.com.au/PDF%20Files/Econodeck%20Install%20Guide.pdf (PDF file takes a while to down load.)  http://www.tufftile.com.au/technical.html  http://www.hamiltonroofing.com.au/glossary.htm  http://www.stramit.com.au/images/techmanuals/blank.jpg (PDF)  http://www.harmonyrooftiles.com.au/m...oreword.html&0 (section 5.3)  http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/ind...F600C04FCF6B8F (PDF)  
The engineer gave me these links, take time to read the pdf's,  *Bluescope steel* and *strammit* I belive are at least nation wide manufactures of roofing products in this great country
Your cavity tray type x is Brittish and is not supplied here. http://www.cavitytrays.co.uk/damp_products.php?id=typex
It is a preformed tray, 
IMO it isnt designed for post fit, rather to be fitted at the time of construction as the dialouge says. ( with the bricks) 
The others i have been told are well respected roofing comanies from east to west coast of this country.   I HAVE NOT ONCE INSULTED YOU OR MADE REFERENCE TO YOUR OBVIOUS ARROGANCE IN RELATION TO A SKILL WITH WHICH I MAKE MY LIVELY HOOD. YOU HAVE REPAETEDLY INSULTED ME AND ANYONE ESLE WHO DEOSNT AGREE WITH YOU.   EAT YOUR WORDS AS YOU SAID YOU WOULD  I AM DOING THE SAME REASARCH FOR PEX PIPE ALSO AND WILL GET BACK TO YOU SOON   *ANYONE WHO CARES CLICK THE LINK AND SEE FOR YOUR SELF.*   *I spent A total of 4 years in my apprenticship, 2 years doing my master plumbers, and 4 years doing my master builders. I was trained by men who did not put up with lazy apprentices, who threw tools and punches if it wasnt done right, most of them 40 years or older. I spent over 33% of my life leaning about this stuff. 10 years at school, All while working stupid hours, trying to start/ run a business, and paying for it out my own back pocket. I know what im doing and if i dont know, i dont do it.*

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## journeyman Mick

Bricks,
at the risk of getting caught in the cross-fire I'd like to ask a couple of questions in order to hopefully clarify things.  
1) Are you aware that a brick skin is not water proof?
2) Do you realise that the method that John is advocating results in a finished product that is identical to the ideal flashing that would be fitted during construction? ie it's visually and structurally identical.  
Given this, then either you didn't explain things clearly to the engineer or they misunderstood. 
Re Pex:
Ring Reece or Tradelink in Cairns and ask them if they sell much Pex. 
Mick

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## pawnhead

> I HAVE NOT ONCE INSULTED YOU OR MADE REFERENCE TO YOUR OBVIOUS ARROGANCE IN RELATION TO A SKILL WITH WHICH I MAKE MY LIVELY HOOD. YOU HAVE REPAETEDLY INSULTED ME AND ANYONE ESLE WHO DEOSNT AGREE WITH YOU.   EAT YOUR WORDS AS YOU SAID YOU WOULD  I AM DOING THE SAME REASARCH FOR PEX PIPE ALSO AND WILL GET BACK TO YOU SOON   *ANYONE WHO CARES CLICK THE LINK AND SEE FOR YOUR SELF.*

  Calm down bricksy. Whilst I've said that it's amusing watching someone lose their composure, I'd hate to see you blow a brain gasket or have a heart attack over an internet argument. 
In case you didn't know, using all caps on the internet is considered shouting and most people don't like others who shout on the internet. You're not only shouting at me but you're shouting at the rest of the forum members as well with your last sentence. Highlighting important text should be done with underlining, emboldening, or italics: -  

> # Avoid using all uppercase letters. ALL CAPS LOOKS LIKE SHOUTING TO THE READER! If you are aiming for emphasis and differentiation, use color, bold, italic, _underlines_ or *asterisks* or extra white space. Even if you intend to shout, *never* use uppercase for more than a few words; it's just too hard to read. http://www.futureustore.com/publicat...etiquette.html

  As far as insults go, it doesn't say anything about that if someone deserves it. The only direct insult I've made toward you so far is this: -  

> a cheeky know it all who can teach everyone a thing or two

   and I gave evidence for my impression of you. Prior to this I hadn't even made an indirect insult on your character. I made a few jokes and I said that installing a saw cut flashing over an internal wall was dodgy and I still stand by that comment.
It was you who escalated this debate with these comments: -  

> Everytime someone posts a solution on this thread either you or Silent C have your little two cents, and your more than demeaning when you do it. You pigheadedly enforce your ideas on everyone and basically make them look like a halfwit if they dont. 
> Anyone who has the brains to carry out their own building works, should have enough brains to find a solution that works, loose the attitude babe.

  You were quite clearly insinuating that I'm pigheaded and brainless before I had made any attacks on your character. I think you need to develop some more wit and tact if you wish to successfully debate a topic on the internet without losing your temper.
Of course later on I said this: -   

> On a related topic of installing flashings, I believe that anyone who would stand under a brick wall, and cut past the centre of gravity, is a *half-wit*. 
> Its not only dodgy, but its downright *dangerous*.

  I'm not insulting you there, and I stand by those comments. I'm sure I could find an engineer who would back me up on that if I wanted to spend the money on a consultation. I emboldened some text because it would concern me if anyone decided to do just that. IMO they would be taking a risk and I certainly wouldn't want to live in a house where the majority of the brickwork overhead was being supported by silicone. Especially if it were in a cyclone area, but even if it weren't I'd still be dreading a one in one hundred year storm. If you can find an engineer who would approve that drawing of yours then I'd expect you to give his name and I'd expect you to give some proof. It's quite easy for you to say that some anonymous engineer is discrediting my methods of installing flashings whilst approving yours. Does he exist bricksy? If he does then give me the opportunity to speak to him.  
Apart from that there were some lighthearted jokes from me but that's par for the course on these forums and it's nothing to loose your temper over, for example, in this thread Eddie Jones said this to me : -   

> Lost it more like. Your brain has been sucked out and replaced with a sponge.

  To which I responded: -   

> I like that. A sponge that soaks up useful information.

  Its important to retain your composure bricksy. 
Now. 
Ill stand by my words and Ill eat them if youve come up with any proof. I didn't expect you to find any, but I dont mind admitting when Im wrong. Youll also recall that I said it wouldnt stop me building my walls so they were waterproof, and I wouldnt guarantee any wall with a sawcut flashing. I think youd be foolhardy to, given my own experience in the past. However its quite late now and Ive yet to go through those links. Ive got a lot on tomorrow so dont expect a speedy reply but I will give one. 
Meanwhile take a chill pill and don't yell and don't get too upset over anything. You'll only make yourself look foolish. You can insult me all you want though if you need to blow off some steam.

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## bricks

> .  http://www.australinsulation-vic.com...ll%20Guide.pdf (PDF file takes a while to down load.)  http://www.tufftile.com.au/technical.html  http://www.hamiltonroofing.com.au/glossary.htm  http://www.stramit.com.au/images/techmanuals/blank.jpg (PDF)  http://www.harmonyrooftiles.com.au/m...oreword.html&0 (section 5.3)  http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/ind...F600C04FCF6B8F (PDF)    http://www.cavitytrays.co.uk/damp_products.php?id=typex

  
The above pages at a guess Are approximately 600 pages of technical data, illustrations and installation method "how to's" for steel and tiled roofs. Uploaded to internet by leaders in roofing products, technology and installation systems in this country.   
Any one who wishes to install, alter, flash, fix, renovate, extend etc and in the process do their own roofing would be advised by me to *read the pdf's* available on the links, they are the highest quality manuals I have seen on the issue. 
I am through argueing, for this one reason,  
I printed and gave a copy of pawny's method to a roofing plumber who works with me, the end result was that he laughed so hard Ice coffee came out his nose, thats how ridiculous he thought it was. ( dinkum) 
My drawing was a crude technical drawing, indicative only do not use it, it's not to scale.  
Read the PDF's 
If you take all the bricks out of a wall in any sequence and put them back again using any combination of in's and outs', My building liscence tells me that wall is now structrually unsafe.  
Read the pdf's  Yes journey man I realise both those things, I would advise you to read the Pdf's available, it will take you hours. The method outlined in all of them Is what i believe to be Standard Industry Practice regarding flashings to adjoining walls. From my past expirence, this method works. 
I have not said that pawnys method will not work, in fact i agree that it would be better. You are correct in saying pawnys method is used when building a wall during construction of the wall. Existing house, new ball game, You cant take bricks out of walls without knowing what your doing, inserting lintel blocks, ties, props, etc. I dont belive that pawnys method is possible because of the danger of removing bricks, *And there is a suitable alternative which happens to be also standard industry practice*. 
Read the pdf. 
The average Joe Homeowner should not remove bricks from walls, let alone effectively a whole corse. The method outlined in the PDF should be looked at as a do-able option, no bricks removed. You dont even have to follow the corse line just cut a straight line straight into the block if you like. 
Read the pdf's  
I spent my time reasarching this through various agencies and organizations the least you can do is............................  *Read the PDF'S  *

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## Jacksin

Bricks I suggest you chill out mate.  
As a fellow South Aussie and a former plumber I am embarrassed by your behaviour since you have joined this forum. What you should realise is that regulations from the eastern states are for the most part completely foreign from those we work under in SA. One size does not fit all! 
To set your self up as a know-all to end-all in this forum, over riding the numerous years of experience of other members who are more experienced in their local regulations, I can only put down to your impetuous youth. You will learn to be flexible with age because slinging matches are only dragging this forum into disrepute. 
To put it bluntly if you dont like it here mate and cant get along with other members feel free to bugger off.

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## bricks

Sorry to all those who posted, read this, I ll pul my head in. 
The reason im annoyed is because basically pawny's method is a theroretically better method, and in practice would work more effectively. My method however I have proved is also correct, the files are located above, they are comprehensive manuals on all types of roof installation from highly respected organizations.  
I have downloaded and saved them for my reference and advise anyone who is interested to do the same, they cover everything.  
To pawny, if you find anything post it, really, the god fearing public deserve to have a choice, I don't appreciate the insults and I apologize should i have caused offence to you directly,The truth is i find it hard to decypher sarcasm from, insults and vice a versa, Im not familiar with the forum protocols, or unwritten laws, perhaps you have misunderstood me. Im not saying your wrong, just saying theres another way to do it. 
I am considering this thread done with, ill not post here again unless nessecary.  
I aplogise to anyone who has to sift through all this rubbish to find any usefull info at all.

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## Mahaylea

Oh dear..Ok I didn't expect to see an argument over it, sorry it sparked one.. 
I did do some reading on the net (and also just checked the links privided) and did see alot about the staggered way by cutting in the brick mortar, alot about the 1.5mtr lengths but hubby and I have also done alot of driving around our area, and checked alot of the homes out and their is some of both methods here and heaps of none staggered in our area..I am in W.Australia.. 
The roof plumber I was going to hire was not going to remove any bricks, but I can definatly see that it should be done during the brick in stages IMO....But being a first time owner builder no one told us and you learn alot along the way..I am not sure if he was going to stagger it or what but he only quoted us on lead flashing fitted... 
Thanks for all your input...After I read this out to hubby, I think we are going to get some quotes and get a roofing plumber in to do it.. 
That harmony web site shows using 2 different types of flashing in the same join, that wasn't something we thought had to be done (but I had seen it on the net before).... 
Thanks again

----------


## journeyman Mick

> Oh dear..Ok I didn't expect to see an argument over it, sorry it sparked one................

  Not a drama, lots of information put forth and some of us enjoy watching or engaging in a good stoush. :Shock:   :Biggrin:   
Mick

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## Mahaylea

LOL ..Thanks...I must admit I don't mind a good argument when you feel passionate about the subject

----------


## bricks

Due to various PM's from both sides of the fence, often with the blind fury associated with neo-religious cult leaders and politicians, i will post one last time on this topic. 
Pawny now has a flashing method, and a referance material to go with it, I have also learned a new technique and its intended applications. Both methods will work, but as with everything need to be applied in the right situation for the right application. We have agreed on this in PM.
We both have gained knowledge which we can apply where we see fit. 
Eg. if your existing wall leaks very badly IMO the saw cut method is not the way to go. If you use the brick removal method IMO it would be because the structural dangers of a badly leaking wall far out weigh the dangers of removing / replacing bricks. 
I will not be using the removal method, in my opinion it should be done by a builder who specialises in this type of work. I would refer customers to one of these builders should I think it was nessecary. Pawny used this method under instruction of a builder, who then guaranteed the wall, theres nothing wrong with that. 
The PDF's are good, best ive seen anywhere, use them. IMO if you cant interpret or still have questions about basic roof flashing after reading those pages, call a roofer. :2thumbsup:  
I do appologize again for my posts during this thread, i have learned alot from your answers, I now understand the forum equivilent of being civilised and corteous to all involved. I also realise the need to be precise in my statements as perhaps mis-interpretation is easier to do when reading a post than in face to face disscussion. I thought by using capitols it would highlight my main points, did'nt realise that was shouting and abusive.

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## journeyman Mick

Bricksie,
it's not always easy to "back down" but, in the end people respect you far more for it. Welcome to the forums mate! :Biggrin:   
Mick

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## pawnhead

Yes, I'd like to welcome you to these forums also bricksy and I hope that we can be friends, however I still believe that you have a problem addressing the issue. 
I believe that you prefer to avoid the question.  

> Pawny now has a flashing method, and a referance material to go with it, I have also learned a new technique and its intended applications. Both methods will work, but as with everything need to be applied in the right situation for the right application. *We have agreed on this in PM.
> We both have gained knowledge which we can apply where we see fit.*

  This statement is a lie.

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## ozwinner

> I can't find a detail on the net, so I've sketched up a typical brick veneer set up. Click to enlarge: -

  Gees talk about being passionate about flashing.  :Shock:  
Pawnhead, Ive been in the bricklaying trade for 36 odd years and have never seen flashing done as per you picture. No chippie that I know puts flashing under the bottom plate and the flashing in the brickwork is 1 course too low, when the garden or path is put against house it would breach the flashing. 
Wall ties havent bean done that fashion in Vic for at least 25 years since the introduction of sisalation. 
Al  :2thumbsup:

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## journeyman Mick

Okay, got this from the Australian Domestic Construction Manual, which was written by Standards Australia and Master Builders Construction and Housing Association Australia Inc, in conjunction with major manufacturers of building materials, the Timber Research and Development Advisory Council and several statutory bodies. 
Text accompanying the stepped flashing diagrams:
"Cavity gutter detail
A critical area of cavity flashings occurs where exterior brickwork becomes internal below a sloping roof. Proper stepped damp-proof course from brickwork on to the adjacent roof level *must* be provided in conjunction with a cavity gutter, or alternatively a stepped flashing (laid across the cavity) can be used. One way of creating such a gutter is shown in Figure D7.2 - G." 
My emphasis and italics. Note that there's no proviso for not providing such a flashing with associated cavity gutter or stepped flashing for renovations or additions. Manufacturers may give other methods for retrofitting a flashing in such a case, but when the wall leaks and the client sues you you'll need to sue the manufacturer that gave you the advice.  
The manufacturer will most likely have deeper pockets than you. 
If it's not in the ADCM or the BCA then you use the method at your own risk. Follow all the rules and you and your license are covered. If you cut 60&#37; of the way into a brick wall and sometime down the track it collapses, killing or maiming someone then you'll be getting sued. It will then be up to you to countersue the engineer or manufacturer who gave you that advice.  I've even read advice in the Master Builder's magazine that in such cases your estate could even be sued by the injured parties after your death. 
The diagram labelled DPC shows the DPC running from under the bottom plate and down the step in the slab to finish under the lower course of bricks.  
"Damp proof coursing must be installed as follows-
The full width of the wall
If near ground level, between 150mm and 200mm from the finished ground level." 
If the DPC *must* be installed the full width of the wall it must be installed under the bottom plate as that is part of the wall. If stepping down one brick from the bottom plate sees the DPC being closer than 150mm from finished ground level then the builder has not had the slab formed high enough. 
WRT to the brick ties:
"The following precautions should be taken during construction:
...............Bridging may occur at the bottom of the cavity, brick ties and at window flashing..........." 
Nowhere is it specified that ties should be fixed at an angle in order to shed water and prevent bridging, but if it was my job I'd be making sure they were, as I wouldn't want any warranty call backs to fix damp spots in plasterboard. 
Mick

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## ozwinner

No one does it like that either Mick.  :Doh:  
Ill try to draw something up, or maybe I can get it from the Brickwork Standards I have here. 
This is fun. 
Al  :Biggrin:  
Edit: The brickwork standards dont have any pics of flashing, you have to buy the flashing standards.. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Annoyed:

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## Bleedin Thumb

The drama, the suspense ....its killing me! 
This thread has more twists and turns than a John Grisham novel! 
BTW Bricks if you are going to post links that are relevant to any point, could you link to the appropriate page so everyone doesn't have to wade through a tech manual.  
I _skimmed_ through every one of those links (except 2 that wouldn't open and I can't see the relevance to your argument. I may have missed it but do you expect people to read 600 pages to prove your point?

----------


## Groggy

This works for me. If you need more detail then download it from here.

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## ozwinner

Greg the pics too small and it doesnt include all the flashings. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## Groggy

> Greg the pics too small and it doesnt include all the flashings. 
> Al

  did you try clicking on *here* <- to download it? If it seems small after downloading, click on it, that should zoom in (on IE anyway). If there is a particular flashing you want shown, let me know and I;ll see if I have it in the book.

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## ozwinner

Ok so I clicked HERE this time, the pic was bigger, but there is a few flashings missing. 
Missing. 
The flashing that seals off a roof from the adjoining brickwork.
This is the one that Bricks was one about, I think.  *I think the boys were on about different flashings myself and got all heated up about different things, both were right in their own respect.* 
The cavity flashing above a room or void is missing.
This is the one that Pawnhead was one about, I think. 
One flashing on the picture that *isnt* used anymore is the sill flashing. 
Unless it rains, all flashings are redundant anyway.. :Biggrin:  
Al  :Smilie:

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## Groggy

How about this? Click here for the big picture.

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## ozwinner

Ok so you now have the roof to building flashing. 
What about the cavity flashing over openings. 
Hijacked by mods, whod a thunk it?  :Doh:  
Al  :Smilie:

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## Groggy

> What about the cavity flashing over openings.

  I reckon you're just after a complete copy of the book Al  :Rolleyes:  . 
Windows (no doors): click here for the large size.

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## ozwinner

> I reckon you're just after a complete copy of the book Al  . 
> Windows (no doors): click here for the large size.

  Dont worry, I have the book in my head anyway.  :Biggrin:  
This is what I think Pawnhead was on about, cavity flashing. 
PS, whats the book? 
Al  :Smilie:

----------


## Groggy

> PS, whats the book?

  Bricklaying for Dummies  :Biggrin:      
Staines, Allen. *House Building Manual: Step by step Guide to House Building* 4th Ed. ISBN 1-875217-18-5 purchased from Bunnings

----------


## ozwinner

> Bricklaying for Dummies    
> Staines, Allen. *House Building Manual: Step by Step Guide to House Building* 4th Ed. ISBN 1-875217-18-5 purchased from Bunnings

  Ive got the decks and pergolas book.. 
Im going to call mine Uncle Al's Bricklaying guide. (Im not really  :Sneaktongue: ) 
Maybe something Bricklaying..... :Biggrin:  
Al  :Biggrin:

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## ausdesign

:Wtf1:   :Megaphone:  An abutment flashing !!.

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## ozwinner

> An abutment flashing !!.

  Sounds painful.. :Cry: 
I hope you get over it soon.. 
Al  :Sneaktongue:

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## silentC

> I think the boys were on about different flashings myself and got all heated up about different things, both were right in their own respect.

  Nah, they're both talking about the same thing: flashing a new single storey roof to an existing two storey wall - abutment flashing as Peter puts it. That was the original question - how to do it. The rest of the stuff just came into the debate as a way of illustrating that bricks leak!

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## Bleedin Thumb

This tread is leaving me with the same feeling as I get post coitus interruptus....slightly unsatified. 
We still haven't resolved the issue - 
IE  What is the correct way to retro fit flashing to a brick wall abutment. 
 1. Chase cut or
      2. Stepped brick removal?

----------


## silentC

I reckon that both are compromises in an imperfect situation. They both mess with the integrity of the existing wall. Whether one or the other is the accepted practice probably doesn't mean much from that point of view. A lot of "accepted practices" look dodgy upon closer inspection...

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## ausdesign

The BCA 2006 prohibits the use of lead flashings for any roof collecting potable water.
Maybe that narrows the debate. Then again . . . . 
And just to clarify the debate - this is where the flashing is preventing water getting inside not for example where a carport or the like butts against an external wall.
For the latter I would be detailing a sloped, cut in [30mm] flashing with a 'soaker' tray for a tiled roof & an over flashing on a metal roof.
I really do have an aversion to the look of a stepped flashing [in case no ones noticed]

----------


## journeyman Mick

Peter,
if you spec a saw cut flashing how can you guarantee that water wont soak the brickwork above the cut and be drawn down behind the cut via gravity thus wetting the interior wall below the roof? And if there's a power point in this wall and someone with a dodgy heart gets killed will you be partly liable? It's not very likely but it's not entirely impossible.  
Mick

----------


## ausdesign

'morning Mick.
A couple of points. Any moisture that penetrates the outer skin will run down the inner face of the brick. If any moisture gets across to the inner skin it will be a result of bad workmanship such as mortar breaching the cavity. Any moisture getting to a power point on the internal skin will be from bad workmanship not from a flashing break down.
Compare it to a situation where the wall is a normal exposed to the weather external wall - same electrical hazards.
With the flashing,whether its chased in or cut in, the same installation principles apply - the recess should be part filled with a sealing medium such as sikaflex. The 'overflashing' should have an upward fold back and be pushed into the sealant, not fitted into the slot and then sealed.
There should be at least a 75mm upstand on the apron flashing & a 50mm cover by the overflashing.
I would hazard a guess that a sloped flashing would perform better than a stepped flashing - less joins etc but I don't have anything to back that up.
With a large area of face brickwork, such as with a second storey, above the abutment I would normally run a cavity flashing with weep holes same as you would at g/l with a slab but then again I'm not building now just drawing lines on paper !

----------


## journeyman Mick

Peter,
the situation to which I'm refering has a previous outside wall becoming an interior wall. Ie: 2 story house, single story addition is tacked onto the outside brickwork. Water which runs down the inside of the exterior brickwork is now running down an inside of an interior wall when it gets down to the lower floor. Of course an ELCB should protect the occupants but it's not a good situation. 
Mick

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## ozwinner

> Peter,
> the situation to which I'm refering has a previous outside wall becoming an interior wall. Ie: 2 story house, single story addition is tacked onto the outside brickwork. Water which runs down the inside of the exterior brickwork is now running down an inside of an interior wall when it gets down to the lower floor. Of course an ELCB should protect the occupants but it's not a good situation. 
> Mick

  In a situation like that Mick there should be a cavity tray/flashing inserted, it can be stepped inside the cavity.  ______
______........______
______                                                       ........................______  Like so, you just have to have a bit of overlap on each flashing. ( I had to insert the dots as they kept closing up when saved) 
It takes a fair bit of effort to archive, but would be well worth it. 
Al  :2thumbsup:

----------


## journeyman Mick

Al,
so where does the tray drain to? I'm assuming the high point is in the middle of the wall just under the flashing on the outside and then each succesive piece steps down. How do you insert it?  :Confused:   
Mick

----------


## ozwinner

> Al,
> so where does the tray drain to? I'm assuming the high point is in the middle of the wall just under the flashing on the outside and then each succesive piece steps down. How do you insert it?   
> Mick

  
I theory it drains out of the weep holes.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  
To insert it you would have to take bricks out and replace them.  :Doh:  
Al  :Biggrin:

----------


## journeyman Mick

Al,
the weep holes are now on an inside wall, not good! Must be another way around it. 
Mick

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## ozwinner

> Al,
> the weep holes are now on an inside wall, not good! Must be another way around it. 
> Mick

  Ahhr, I assumed you butted a gable roof against the brickwork, hence the stepped flashing.  :Doh:  Then the weep holes would be above the roof. 
Al  :Biggrin:

----------


## journeyman Mick

Al,
still trying to understand this.
Even if it's a gable roof with a stepped *flashing that's been inserted in a saw cut in the mortar or brickwork* I can't see how you can stop any water that's hitting the wall above this point from soaking into the bricks and travelling down the wall, causing moisture problems on the interior section of the wall below this point. 
The only way around this that I can see is what John (Pawnhead) has advocated and that's to retrofit a flashing by removing bricks. Now I know that bricks nowadays are higher fired than they used to be and don't absorb as much water but I wouldn't want to lay my license on the line by doing it any other way. Truth be known, I probably wouldn't want to take the job on anyway :Biggrin: . But I've yet to see anyone coming up with a retrofit flashing for a brickwall that will guarantee a dry wall below it besides removing bricks like John suggests. Well that, or overflash the entire wall from the soffit down to the saw cut flashing which might be just a tad ugly. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   
Mick

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## ozwinner

> The only way around this that I can see is what John (Pawnhead) has advocated and that's to retrofit a flashing by removing bricks. 
> Mick

  
Thats what Im saying Mick.
Take out bricks, insert flashing into the cavity, thats why its called cavity flashing.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  
Replace bricks.. :Sneaktongue:  
Al  :Biggrin:

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## ozwinner

> Now I know that bricks nowadays are higher fired than they used to be and don't absorb as much water 
> Mick

  
Yeah right, some bricks are fired almost to a glaze, but the still absorb heaps of water, some absorb so much that they almost float when they are wet. 
We had some last winter and they got so wet that they wouldnt dry out for us to lay them, even after covering them for a week to stop the rain getting to them they were still bloody awful to lay. 
Al  :Doh:

----------


## journeyman Mick

Al,
oh, okay we're reading from the same page then. Just waiting on Peter or Bricks to show how a saw cut inserted flashing can be installed so as to result in a totally dry wall. :Wink 1:   
Mick

----------


## ozwinner

I didnt think that flashing was so interesting, but look at all these people who are reading this thread... :Shock:  
Al  :Biggrin:

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## silentC

Mate, I've always been interested in flashing  :Biggrin:

----------


## bricks

I dont know how the wall stays dry fellas, i really don't. It's just the way I was taught. 
Just wondering if anyone has had time to look at the pages I posted before, if so what do you think about them? 
If anyones wondering, im not argueing about it anymore because i dont like it and because i got spanked by the mod, It hurt, I have sensitive skin :Cry: . 
But mick I cant tell you coz i dont know.  :Doh:  
Silent pretty much summed it up for me in post #63

----------


## journeyman Mick

Haven't had time to look at those pages Bricksie, but stay tuned to this space for breaking news on that issue. I won't steal anyone's thunder, just wait and see. :Wink:   
Mick

----------


## bricks

Just a question, 
Does anyone think the amount of water soaked into a brick wall would have anything to do with the amount of time it is in contact with water/ moisture and less to do with the amount of water? 
Eg; if you sprayed your wall with water for an hour or two, then scratched the mortar away I dont rekon youd have had it soaked in even 1-5mm of the way through, Even with a pressure nozzle aimed directly at it.
     But if you piled relatively dry soil next to your house, within 1 month youd have signs of rising damp? hence why damp coursing goes above the first corse where theoretically water will pool around the house during heavy storms?  
We all know bricks arn't water proof but they arn't tissue paper either.

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## silentC

So why have cavity flashings and weep holes etc at all?

----------


## ozwinner

> So why have cavity flashings and weep holes etc at all?

  Bricks do leak and more importantly sweat.
But........
I have never seen a weep hole weep, honest, in all 36 years laying bricks, I cant say I have seen one weep. 
Ventilation is the key, if you ventilate then the moisture is almost eliminated. 
But hey, dont listen to me, Im just a dumb bricklayer. 
Al  :Redface:

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## silentC

Yeah well I know 2 fifths of bugger all about it but I'm just guessing they're there for a reason. I have seen weep holes weeping but only in retaining walls. I can't recall seeing one in a double brick wall weeping but I dunno, it's not like you expect it to come out in torrents or anything.

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## ozwinner

Retaining walls are a different beast altogether, as in that the dirt behind them is constantly moist. 
Al  :Smilie:

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## bricks

I sweat when i work hard and have to take a leak if i drink too much!

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## Bleedin Thumb

> Retaining walls are a different beast altogether, as in that the dirt behind them is constantly moist. 
> Al

  I drilled a hole in a brick retaing wall once, in a plant nursery and water shot out about 3 foot. It was no wonder why the wall was starting to fail.

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## journeyman Mick

> I drilled a hole in a brick retaing wall once, in a plant nursery and water shot out about 3 foot. It was no wonder why the wall was starting to fail.

  
You fool! that was the feed for the irrigation system!  :Eek:   :Biggrin:   :Tongue:   No wonder all the plants died in that section. :No:   
Mick

----------


## Skew ChiDAMN!!

Did Friday have an early start this week?  Or have I done a Rip Van Winkle?  :Confused:

----------


## Deanom

Fellas, My 2c worth.
Bricks you're wrong, Pawnhead you're right.
A couple of things I would like to point out on a few items I am qualified to speak. 
1. Please dont cut past CG of brickwork unless you are absolutely sure that the wall is properly tied to the stud frame and you arent cutting the bed joint where the ties are.  Cutting past the CG (centre of gravity) will create a moment in the wall that will have to be corrected by the ties.  Why cut past the CG anyway if the silicone performs the function of sealing and will only really be effective just inside the surface of the bed joint.  I would suggest that you should limit cuts to 1/3rd depth if you must make them at all. 
2. Breaking out bricks in sections as Pawnhead has described is a practice that is acceptable.  This practice is often also employed to replace brick courses when brickies (in their infinite wisdom) provide inadequate damp proof courses and lower courses begin to suffer fret as a result of "salt attack".  Check google for more explanation. 
3.  If the renovation turns the exterior wall in to an interior wall, then you have to flash right through the brickwork.  If you want to argue that no water will/should be in the wall, ask yourself why did you put weep holes in the wall at ground level to begin with.  If you dont know, dont argue. 
4.  In most cases we are fortunate that good wall constuction, eaves, good ventilation and good climate all contribute to not having noticeable water in our cavities.  Make one of these factors bad and the situation can be different.  Eg fact, I recently discovered termites in my house and tracked them back to a perpend where the mortar was not complete.  A small little hole existed and they walked right on through the wall.  In other areas of the house, black ants have found similar ingress points.  Another unappreciated fact is that water can be present in the wall without precipitation outside, eg cold night, cold brickwork, warm house, condensation on the bricks in the cavity.  Fortunately in our climate this type of condition does not arrise to frequently.  Think of Europe where winters are long and there is a very good chance you are running heating 24hrs for months.  This type of situation would likely work the weepholes. 
5.  Roofing companies only provide details that protect their product and are the easiest to apply.  They want to popularise their product so they provide the easiest details.  Eg company A provides a detail like bricks' describes, company B provides a detail like pawnhead describes.  A silly bugger comes a long (although smart enough to know the difference between easy work and hard work) who wants to build an extension, naturally he selects company A.  If a problem arises where the water ingress is beyond the extent of the roof, fat chance that the roofing company will come to your aid.  He is protected because his product is not leaking. 
6. When I read this thread and also become aware of other insufficient trade practices, I scratch my head an wonder where has all the knowledge gone.  As technology improves, are we getting dumber?  I am still not supprised those mates of Bricks' laughed at the cavity flash.  
Cheers,
Dean

----------


## ausdesign

Thanks Mick, I was enjoying sitting back and watching. The greatest occurrence with water penetration in that situation is possibly not with electrocution [point taken] but with water marks or salts appearing on the internal wall in the house. <o></o> From a builders point of view this type of drop gable is a bastard & there is no one method of flashing that will come up with – ‘do it this way & it wont leak’. <o></o><o></o> Firstly<o></o> Very little water penetrates through bricks. It comes in through the perps. – before I get jumped on by a moderator, bricks do get wet & brickies love laying wet bricks. <o></o> The higher the brick panel above the abutment flashing the greater the likelihood & amount of moisture in the cavity.<o></o> The strength of the wind plays an important part, more so with raked or recessed key joints.<o></o> In an external wall the moisture will have more chance of drying because there is air movement in the cavity.<o></o> In an internal wall the moisture tends to be drawn through the brickwork because of the temp. difference showing up as effervescence [???].<o></o> A raked joint will let in more moisture than an ironed joint. <o></o> <o></o> Yeh ok im getting there.<o></o> How do you stop it – put in a cavity flashing. <o></o> As Al showed in his diagram, a stepped flashing with weepholes – a series of horizontal flashings stepping down with the pitch of the roof.<o></o> But won’t the water run over the edge of the flashing like a waterfall & end up in the bottom of the cavity I hear you say. <o></o> 
No. We need to get it into context. We’re talking about moisture not water flowing. If there’s water flowing then its more likely to be a flashing at the very top of the cavity or a couple of bricks left out of the wall [only joking Al] or one of those round grills installed on gable ends to vent the roof space.<o></o> If you’ve got a single leaf garage you’ll be able to see moisture on the inside of the skin if there’s prolonged rain [& it’s wind driven] If you have say a dry area up towards the top & then water coming in lower and running down the wall it could be more than likely caused by the brickie not buttering the end of the brick fully creating a ‘weak’ perpend. <o></o> <o></o> In the situation where you have a large expanse of wall above the abutment such as with a full second storey, a full length horizontal flashing as you’d have at the bottom with a slab will reduce the brick area feeding moisture to the stepped cavity flashing. Same as you’d have over a window opening. <o></o><o></o> What to do –<o></o> Reduce the area of the face as much as possible with a ‘normal’ flashing up higher.<o></o> Ask the brickie to be aware of the potential problem so he will give more attention to perp ends, the installation of the flashings, keeping the cavity clear, making sure weep holes are fully open.<o></o> Iron finish to the joints if possible.<o></o> I don’t have much faith long term but clear waterproof coatings work.<o></o> Liquid damp proof added to the mortar for the entire wall.<o></o> Use an embossed plastic type flashing in the cavity to maintain a better bond rather than a lead or smooth metal tray/s. - to perform, the flashing has to come within a bees of the face of the brick so you are ‘breaking’ the wall. Either way ensure that wall ties are as close as possible to the flashing.  Whether the abutment flashing is stepped or sloped doesn't come into the performance of the cavity flashing. As lead will disappear & I think bluescope still have an aversion to laps on their material I may be fulfilled in life yet & see more nice & neat sloped flashings looking modern and not as with their counterparts - left over from the 30's  :Sneaktongue:   <o></o>  Ok sock it to me.<o></o>

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

That's all well and good Peter, but the original issue was how to *Retrofit* a flashing in that situation. 
I'm starting to think that the best way is to demolish the inner top brick skin to the roof line, place weepholes, cavity flashing etc. IE do it as it should have been done in the first place.
And if that was not possible isolate the whole wall from the weather by cladding, which as you suggested earlier may not be in keeping with the style you want... but hey I'd rather have a dry wall than some architectural anomaly in a place you dont often look. 
Edit Hey maybe we have just uncovered a new use for the old Faux Brick cladding!

----------


## silentC

Corrugated colorbond as wall cladding is all the rage down these parts. In fact, the challenge is to use as many different claddings (the architect wankers call them textures) as you can in the one building. 
Or make your extension come up to the eave lining, then you have no problem.

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

> Corrugated colorbond as wall cladding is all the rage down these parts. .

  
Yes I bet Glenn Murcutt doesn't have any of the problems that we have been discussing. :Wink:

----------


## Deanom

Fellas,
One more consideration about lead flashing people should know.  Apparently runoff from lead flashing will contain lead ions and if you have colorbond gutters or colorbond roofing, the colorbond's life will be shortened.  I have this situation on my tiled roof so I painted the lead flashing (the colour of the tiles) to try not to reduce the gutters life.
Info here http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/go/...hing-materials
Cheers,
Dean

----------


## journeyman Mick

Dean,
I believe there are malleable aluminium flashings available toovercome the lead/zincalume incompatibility issue. 
Mick

----------


## bricks

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *Deanom*  </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>  

> Another unappreciated fact is that water can be present in the wall without precipitation outside,

  Cavity flashing wont stop this???
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *Deanom*  </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>  

> 5. Roofing companies only provide details that protect their product and are the easiest to apply. ..... company A provides a detail like bricks' describes, company B provides a detail like pawnhead describes. ........, fat chance that the roofing company will come to your aid. He is protected because his product is not leaking.

  But if I don't do the install as per manufacturers reccomendations I automatically void my warranty.?????
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *Deanom*   _Fellas, My 2c worth._ _Bricks you're wrong, Pawnhead you're right._ 
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Due to the fact the this topic is so advanced please provide some proof via weblinks etc as to pawnys method being the only method. I have more than proved that my method is accepted at least by some industry leading companies in this country. Your opinion has already been proved wrong in previous posts. 
My only concern about retro cavity flashing is removing the bricks and retaining strength in the wall after. I have not said that cavity flashing is not used, not acceptable, or that it is not done as a retro fit option. 
I have not found any proof of cavity flashing as the only option for retro fit- which is what we are asking here. 
In order to prove me wrong: you need to find evidence that the saw cut method is illegal, not widely used, and not reccomended by some authority on the matter. Only australian sites will do as our climate is unique from the rest of the world and their reg's dont apply here.

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

> In order to prove me wrong: you need to find evidence that the saw cut method is illegal, not widely used, and not recommended by some authority on the matter. Only Australian sites will do as our climate is unique from the rest of the world and their reg's dont apply here.

  
Bricks I don't want to get into a slanging match with you but no one has to prove that you are wrong because .........you have not proved that you are right. 
In all that junk mail that you posted show us where it says that the correct way to protect the (now) internal wall from moisture penetration in a retrofit situation is by chasing a cut into the brickwork and inserting flashing and fix with silicon. 
Also show the appropriate building standard clause and drawing that does the same.( Australian of course :Smilie:  ) 
Time to put up or shut up. 
BTW I think that pawnhead is probably wrong as well but his system does make more logical sense from reducing water penetration - there still remains the structural integrity problem. :Frown:   
I still advocate that the only safe way in a retrofit is demolish and redo or totally clad. 
This thread has probably unearthed a grey area in building codes that needs some serious thought.

----------


## ozwinner

> Only australian sites will do as our climate is unique from the rest of the world and their reg's dont apply here.

  Give me 5 minutes and Ill put it up on my site.  :Biggrin:  
Al  :Biggrin:

----------


## bricks

http://www.australinsulation-vic.com.au/PDF%20Files/Econodeck%20Install%20Guide.pdf (PDF file takes a while to down load.)  http://www.tufftile.com.au/technical.html ( go to the instalation manual left side of page , 3218 kb's )  http://www.hamiltonroofing.com.au/glossary.htm ( first image of page as it opens) 
WWW stramit link broken ?????  http://www.harmonyrooftiles.com.au/m...oreword.html&0 (section 5.3) 5.3.a is the image of what I do exactly.  http://www.bluescopesteel.com.au/ind...F600C04FCF6B8F (PDF) Section 11 at the bottom of the page. 
Im not going into a slanging match either.
I've produced pretty good set of reputable suppliers and installer who support saw cut methods in retro fit applications, 
I can not find anything on retro fit cavity flashing for australia, any where at all, If anyone else can please post them here- I am genuinly interested. 
IMO both exist, cavity flashing retro fitting requires that you remove bricks, saw cut does not, for that reason if you are going to choose between the two, then choose saw cut if you can.
That is my position and has always been my position.

----------


## Bleedin Thumb

Bricks just posting the same old links is not proving anything. I said before if you are going to provide a kink at least have the courtesy of linking to the correct page. The only reference you provided was section 5.3 of Harmony roof tiles site. Have you actual read that section. It has no relevance to what you are expounding on what so ever in fact the mentioning of stepped flashing supports Pawnhead not you.
I said last post its time too put up or shut up. I don't think you are capable of either.

----------


## bricks

Section 5.3 shows exactly what i do, if pawny does the same thing then we are acheiving nothing here, and we've been doing this for nothing. 
I have amended the links page to show exactly where you need to navigate to find pictures or diagrams of what I do.

----------


## Groggy

I read an article today on how the USA does it (in a Reader's Digest Home Improvements Manual). It shows a new (shingled) roof being fitted to an existing wall and describes the process as:  fit step flashingfit shingles up to wallcap flashing is applied over the step flashing and the lip is laid into a slot cut into the brickwork (or mortar joints if the flashing is level). The lip/brick joint  is sealed with sealant.

----------


## ozwinner

I still cant believe that flashing of the waterproof kind can produce such an interest in people..?? 
Al  :Confused:

----------


## Groggy

100 posts in this thread Al, maybe we're missing something here?  :Rolleyes:

----------


## ozwinner

Flashing and water proofing is a must have for my site so it would seem.. :Confused:  
Al  :Tongue:

----------


## Groggy

> Flashing and water proofing is a must have for my site so it would seem.. 
> Al

  Doing the brickwork is one thing, and not easy by itself, but attaching the  rest of the house to the brickwork is another matter. Even correctly building a pier would be good to see.

----------


## Deanom

> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *Deanom*  </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> Cavity flashing wont stop this???
> Yes cavity flashing will stop it.  But it will be diverted inside you extension at ground level.
> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *Deanom*  </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> But if I don't do the install as per manufacturers reccomendations I automatically void my warranty.?????
> Bricks, Are you suggesting a roof company is going to warranty against cavity moisture.  I dont think so.
> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *Deanom*   _Fellas, My 2c worth._ _Bricks you're wrong, Pawnhead you're right._  
> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> Due to the fact the this topic is so advanced please provide some proof via weblinks etc as to pawnys method being the only method. I have more than proved that my method is accepted at least by some industry leading companies in this country. Your opinion has already been proved wrong in previous posts.
> ...

  Bricks, I dont believe saw cutting would be illegal.  I think your method is sufficient and the best way of doing it (given the simplest) if you were connecting a roof and the wall was to remain external (eg a carport or balcony). 
Bricks, dont fight it, I think the argument is over.
Cheers,
Dean

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