# Forum More Stuff At the end of the day  Our Health

## Marc

Our health is a personal issue that men rarely talk about. Call it what you want but I know for a fact that women are way better at talking about this than we are. 
In my personal case, I received passive education in this subject without knowing it and that somehow makes me more prone to talk about it.  
As a teenager I chose engineering as my prefered subject and started university at age 17, only to decide changing for agronomy one year later. Things we do at that age. 
My younger brother went on to medicine, probably influenced by our mother that was a physiotherapist. I met my wife in one of their study groups at home and we have been together ever since.  
My wife graduated and continued studying ophthalmology, her brother went on to orthopaedic surgery, my brother also did ophthalmology and married a fellow student who also did ophthalmology.
The funniest part is that they all met at our place when they were students and for years they asked me to type their summaries because I was the only one that could type fast enough.  
As an adult, my wife always talks about her work with me and never dismisses me because I am not a doctor. When she did ophthalmology I learned about the eye more than most. When we moved to Australia, I went through the pain of revalidating her career with her, and then through the process of hospital training and then private practice.  
During all this time every day after work I get a sort of debriefing. Today I had a patient so and so, (no names) and this is what he said and what I saw etc. Sometimes this is said to me in the morning when I am half asleep. Sometimes I venture a diagnosis pulled out of my hat ... (nothing to lose), and it turned out to be right half of the time.  
You should have studied medicine is what I get sometimes, but I know this not be the case. The fact is that I am lousy at studying, I lack the patience and consistency to pass exams, and don't fit in a regimented workplace.
May be that is why 'alternative' medicine is so attractive to me. I am a sucker for all the studies about supplements, and diets, and sport medicine and alternative healing, naturopathy and many more. Even my wife after graduation had some interest and studied naturopathy formally and even diagnosis by iridology.  
My interest in diet supplementation took me to start a business and for something like 10 years I sold vitamins and minerals supplements as a side income. It was fun because i also needed to attend seminars to keep me up to date, and they mostly consisted in doctors telling us what we needed to know.  
Why am I telling you all this? Well as I am getting older, my body is telling me to take care of it in order for it to perform for as long as possible. I have abused my body as we all do with sport and work for about 60 of my 70 years, but I also learned something very valuable from all my unintended medical education. Our body is much better at healing itself than most medical doctors want you to believe.  
Yes ... I do swallow vitamins and minerals and probiotics and omega 3-6 and coenzyme Q10 and Bergamet and kyolic garlic, tongkat Ali and a couple more that slip my mind ... but ... there is something that is inescapable, the food we fuel our body with, is most likely what determines our level of health, our exposure to deterioration in our health, and how we can pull ourselves out of it.  
There is probably a million different opinions about what is good for you and what is not, and if you read about food and health you will most likely reach the conclusion that there is nothing you can eat or drink, not even water. So what do we do? 
In my life of wandering aimlessly among medical opinions, I bumped into one that got stuck in my mind: Our body is not built to be fed 3 to 5 times a day 365 days a year. In fact, the way the body performs at it's peak, is when it is fed 3 to 5 times a week. Yes, we are programmed to get lots of fuel when it is available and starve when it is not. The "starvation" time is for the body to heal and recover, for stem cells to be produced for the healing process, and for the mind to get sharp to find some more food somewhere. 
If the greenies succeed in convincing governments that the end of the world will come unless we go back to the caves and live like animals, we will lose everything we gained as a modern society but we would gain one. We will probably get much healthier. My father who volunteered for WW2 at age 18 told me that before the war everyone was overweight and had liver complaints. During the war soldiers become healthier and no one complained about their liver.  
So where is this long winded self reflection taking us? Well if you got this far, I have something for you. 
Following in the original idea that the body can heal itself if we give it half a chance, and understanding that overfueling it by 300% is cancelling out any chance the body has to do anything for itself because all its resources are occupied to process and toss out as best as possible all that extra baggage, the obvious conclusion is simple. We eat too much. And not only too much but most importantly ... and this is what most brain dead 'dietitians' don't understand ... too frequently.  
Talk to a dietitian about weight loss, the bane of our times, and he will tell you to eat little meals more frequently so that you trigger your "metabolism" and you so reduce your excess fat. What a load of crook!!! 
The most powerful healing mechanism we all have at our disposition and that almost no one utilises is one that is the cheapest and the simples you can imagine.
Fasting. 
Interestingly fasting is built into most religions as a way to become more spiritual, or any other variation you care to believe, yet my interpretation is that it is there in order to compel as many people as possible, into adopting a healthy lifestyle the only way they knew how to do this in ancient times, via some magical hotchpotch of believes that would make this more or less compulsory.  
I have grown out of religion some time ago yet the value of fasting is non debatable. 
So I decided to share a bit of my life with you and get you thinking a bit about your own health, hopefully ... and if you care for listening to someone with more qualifications than me, below is a link to a talk by Dr Mindy Peltz.  
There are many others with a million more variations on the same subject, One that springs to mind is Dr Michael Mosley, and then you have what I call the alternative religions, like vegetarians and vegans. 
Sure, reducing animal produce is a step in the right direction but in my experience and the one of many others, if you are able to have one meal a day, fast one day a week, and then fast 3 to 5 days every season, that is 4 times a year, your health will be up there the best you body can do, and that one meal a day you can eat whatever you want. Yes even pizza. And keep within a healthy weight and most importantly healthy and sharp.   
If you decide to join this adventure of getting healthier or staying healthier for longer, let me know. Meantime here is Dr Mindy. I trust that you can disregard the frills bells and whistles that all youtube channels need to display to remain viable, the 'community' thing and any hint to spirituality of any kind. 
Take care,
Ta-ta
Marc  https://youtu.be/f6bzZLLLiwE?t=182 
PS
If you decided to fast be it one day 3 days or more, best thing you can do is keep this for yourself. It is a private decision and it is hard for some to do. The last thing you need is opinions from the well intentioned ignorant that will invariably come unsolicited your way.  :Smilie:

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## toooldforthis

lots of discussion points there (western medicine being just one), but as to your bottom line I tend to agree and for a long time have followed the adage of eating when I am hungry. 
there have been times when I have followed a more defined fast, but these days I don't have to bother so much with that.
That is because I don't have to worry about others and meal times etc.
When I did, being able to say I am having a detox or whatever terminology was socially acceptable at the time was helpful to disarm the debates. 
Family situations and the importance of food/meals to our so called culture is an obstacle/difficulty unless you can convert your circle to your religion.
"tread your own path"

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## Marc

Agreed, the family table is or rather used to be the time to be all together for a meal and a talk. Unless you have small kids and are a stay home dad even that one is out the window. May be on weekends is different. 
The social aspect of eating is most likely one of the reasons we overeat so much, among others. As for support, I tend not to say anything to anyone about what I eat or don't eat, and if it happens to be a clash between my day of fasting and some unplanned gathering, I will most likely join discreetly and postpone the fasting for the next day. No point "converting" anyone, that is the most irritating side of Vegans or Vegetarians, that consider their health interpretation as something morally superior and defending the rights of animals and against cruelty etc etc.
No good comes from impositions and proselytism. Let the churches have that and keep it. They are doing great ... not. 
Eating when you are hungry is a good start. Going hungry for some time is what gives the body a holiday from processing food and a chance to reset immune system etc. 
In my experience it is not hard at all and it is all in your mind. I did 14 days fasting when I was younger only as a challenge, told no one what I was doing and continued with my strenuous gymnastics training, study and work. it was not a big deal. 
3 to 5 days is also no big deal. It is all in your mind.
The benefits on the other hand are tangible and hard to miss. 
This days the family is my best allie. 4 Girls all grown up and with kids of their own, if they figure out I am fasting they say things like ... why didn't you tell me? I would have done with you ...  :Smilie:

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## Bros

I dont know where we went wrong as when I was young everyone would have cornflakes or porridge covered in sugar and we ate white bread and cooked in dripping as did the rest of the population and if you were lucky you would have a chook for Sunday dinner from the back yard but you would never see fat people.  
When I go to the shopping centre it amazes me at the number of fat girls I see and unfortunately you put on weight as you age (I did) I shudder to see these girls in 40 yrs time. 
Fasting is for the religious people as we shouldn't have to fast now days but I don't have the answer.

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## Marc

The answer is simple Bros, we have become more sedentary. Kids are in the pram and have an Ipod wired to their head to keep them quiet. Ipad at age 3 to keep them quiet, phone and laptop at 8, remote control to change channels. No sport, no playing outdoors, and excessive amounts of food. Work, unless you are in the building industry is on a computer etc etc. 
Fasting used to be for religious purposes. The catholic church for example had friday as the day of fasting. Because people complained about it that it was too hard, it was diluted further and further ending into having fish on Friday, as a lighter meal compared to meat. Ramadan is still in force and people don't eat during the day, however they overindulge as soon as the sun goes down turning the intended purpose on it's head.  
There is a lot of benefits in fasting for health reasons. You should try it.

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## toooldforthis

> Eating when you are hungry is a good start.

  thought you would pick up on that  :Smilie: 
what I wanted to add was that most people confuse hunger with sugar-level swings.
fasting is a good way to get back in touch with your food needs.   

> I dont know where we went wrong as when I was young everyone would have cornflakes or porridge covered in sugar and we ate white bread and cooked in dripping as did the rest of the population...

  as Marc said. *inactivity*.
but also, so much crap added to everything you buy these days - what might appear healthy has so many additives, take low-fat as an example - full of sugar. 
a good start to a healthy diet is to avoid all processed foods but it is so difficult these days, even compared to 20 years ago, as the whole food chain is 'poisoned'
a local is growing _organic_ (cause they are home grown?!) mushrooms ($!) , but the coffee grounds they grow them in comes from anywhere/everywhere so hardly organic?

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## woodbe

The problem is the amount of food eating every day and the amount of energy we use each day. 
At school in the 1970's I was slow learning, but was a good exerciser. Rowing, Running and Rugby in the school and sailing most weekends. After finishing school, I was keeping busy and kept my weight strong running and sailing. Later I stopped a lot exercise by being stuck in the building in the desk from early to late each day including most of the weekend. I lost a lot of strength, and got a lot heavy. That wasn't fast, took about 15 years, but by then had lost a lot of my strength. My wife broken her leg, not good about her falling down and broken her leg, but I was able to help my wife and get her leg sorted at the hospital.  
So I was lucky able to start working from the home, connected to the work. Would go back to the work place a couple days a week. Got my exercise moving again, walking long 5km around the place and rowing on a Concept indoor rower. It took a few years for my weight and strength improve, but I kept my exercise running since there. Lost the fat and improved my muscles and become strong again. 
We cook our food from normal food not made from something else included of other stuff, once a week we buy some made food different like Mexican Chinese India etc to give us time not cooking that week. 
It takes time to know what is happing to your body, but like tooolforthis and Marc, *inactivity* is a big problem. And yes, the food most people use is different from the food in the 1970. 
Way back then we hardly ever had and lollies etc but now they are every and made of lots of stuff, and a lot of people are sitting around not exercising - they look at someone else exercising like the football on the TV!

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## toooldforthis

thought I would add the other _secret_ ingredient - motivation & discipline. 
I have friends who have aged badly and expect the GP to fix it for them. GP says exercise & nutrition - too hard for them.
Not sure where you source this _secret_ ingredient - from personal experience I know it isn't genetic.
For me it is remembering the benefits of being well. 
I treat GPs/doctors like panel beaters - 3 quotes please.
That's exaggerating a bit, but I certainly do seek other opinions/reasons.
Several times in my life I have had a diagnosis where medicos said - well, you'll never be able to do that again (run, lift heavy, whatever) - only to prove them wrong. (took  a few years in some cases mind you). 
As I have got older I have found even more medico pessimism about my capabilities & recovery abilities.
Proving them wrong again this year. 
Probably the best thing you can do is get to know your own body and remember how it feels to be well - as woodbe commented about his earlier years and his journey to regain that. 
Exercise/activity is so beneficial on so many levels, one spin off I found was the more I worked on my exercise the more inclined I was to eat healthily.
I am not sure it works the other way round? 
and back to Marc's point - fasting occasionally is a great way to get to know yourself.

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## Marc

If losing weight is your motivator, it is a good one to avoid diabetes and cholesterol.
The funny thing is that if you get in the routine of one meal a day and fasting regularly one day a week, you will be able to eat whatever comes your way and keep the weight down.  
A bit like Bros mentioned our diet used to be 50 years ago.  
The biggest ever damage to the world population health was the invention of the so called food pyramid and the concept of several meals a day. Couple that with the new variety of wheat and the way we process it and you have an idea of where we went wrong ... among many other reasons.  
However in my experience it is not conductive to any good results, if you get into polemics about food, pound the hypothetical table with inflammatory opinions or try to blame the multinationals or your mother. We have very little control over how food is presented to you, unless you want to live as a hermit bitter from chewin bile. Yes it is good to read the labels and inform yourself about additives and preservatives and pesticides etc, but don't make it another religion. The reason I posted this thread is because I know the simple most effective way to regain health and lose weight and feel much younger is to fast. An do it fast!  :Smilie:

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## Bros

Now we know how we did things in the past what of the future in a democratic society? 
Fasting, diets of various forms, gut stapling etc is not the answer this is admission of failure we should not be in this position.  
Governments is the western world are grappling with this problem and I don't thing there are any results. It took generations of heavy taxation and social stigma to put the smoking on the downhill slide. I have heard mention of a sugar tax but from my previous post sugar was part of the diet. You can't exercise your way to weight reduction as the calories expended would be far less than that consumed. I rarely see fat kids but I sure see a lot of fat young adults so something happens after they leave school to give this rather rapid weight gain unlike many posted here a slow increase in weigh gain over many many years. 
I don't have the answer do you?

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## John2b

Sugar is used as a flavour enhancer in processed foods and drinks. Look on the food labels - sugar is always there, though often disguised or broken up into different types with less familiar names. Australians who buy the bulk of their food from supermarkets, cafes and takeaways probably unknowingly consume in excess of 20 teaspoons of sugar per day in their food. There's 20 teaspoons of sugar in a 1 litre bottle of fizzy drink, so even a cup a day is too much. The obesity explosion and Type 2 diabetes epidemic afflicting adults in Australia is a direct consequence of sugar added to foods and drinks.

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## toooldforthis

> If losing weight is your motivator...

    

> 

    well, could be the motivation for a lot of people. wishful thinking for the most part.  it's lifestyle.  if you want to lose weight and keep it off then you have to change your lifestyle. how many people you see successfully lose unwanted weight and then put it back on? imho it's because they don't acknowledge what works for losing weight isn't a one off that will keep it off.    

> Now we know how we did things in the past what of the future in a democratic society? 
> Fasting, diets of various forms, gut stapling etc is not the answer this is admission of failure we should not be in this position.  
> Governments is the western world are grappling with this problem and I don't thing there are any results. It took generations of heavy taxation and social stigma to put the smoking on the downhill slide. I have heard mention of a sugar tax but from my previous post sugar was part of the diet. You can't exercise your way to weight reduction as the calories expended would be far less than that consumed. I rarely see fat kids but I sure see a lot of fat young adults so something happens after they leave school to give this rather rapid weight gain unlike many posted here a slow increase in weigh gain over many many years. 
> I don't have the answer do you?

  sry, too many contradictions in that. 
fasting isn't a diet option that can be lumped with gut stapling.
it is a pretty natural thing if you look at the span of humankind.
but in this day maybe best to view it as a detox with benefits.     

> Governments in the western world are grappling with this problem...

  conspiracy or incompetence. take your pick.    

> You can't exercise your way to weight reduction...

  
respectfully disagree.
one of the side benefits of exercise is people who do it regularly tend to eat more healthily as well as they tend to become more health conscious overall.

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## toooldforthis

> Sugar is used as a flavour enhancer in processed foods and drinks. Look on the food labels - sugar is always there, though often disguised or broken up into different types with less familiar names. Australians who buy the bulk of their food from supermarkets, cafes and takeaways probably unknowingly consume in excess of 20 teaspoons of sugar per day in their food. There's 20 teaspoons of sugar in a 1 litre bottle of fizzy drink, so even a cup a day is too much. The obesity explosion and Type 2 diabetes epidemic afflicting adults in Australia is a direct consequence of sugar added to foods.

   :2thumbsup: 
as I said above, avoid processed foods as much as you can.

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## John2b

My principle adopted ~10 ears ago is: don't eat anything with more than five ingredients, don't eat anything with something in it you can't pronounce, don't eat anything with an ingredient your grandparents wouldn't have heard of, don't eat anything with claims like "good for you," "low fat," "no added sugar," or "healthy" on the package and ignore food rating systems irrespective if they are by advocacy groups or Health Departments. 
I pretty much only drink water and wine or my own home brew, however most dieticians don't understand that the alcohol in wine is not metabolised so it does not count in calories consumed. I think it is turned into acetic acid and passed in the urine, which is why people don't get 'wine guts' (beer has carbohydrates in it, which are turned into sugars). 
After I made these dietary changes _and_ switched from margarine back to butter, skim milk back to full cream milk, stopped trimming fat off meat and bacon, etc, my weight went down by around 10 kilo, my bad cholesterol went down, my 'good' cholesterol went up, my blood pressure went down, my bald patch disappeared and my hairline is creeping back down my forehead. YMMV!

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## Bros

> sry, too many contradictions in that. 
> fasting isn't a diet option that can be lumped with gut stapling.
> it is a pretty natural thing if you look at the span of humankind.
> but in this day maybe best to view it as a detox with benefits.

  Do an internet search about dieting and weight reduction and you will be bombarded with hits same as gut surgery which has a rapid result but not without side effects.     

> conspiracy or incompetence. take your pick.

  Easy to say but what is your recommendation as there are much smarter people than you and me tempting you to eat this and that.    

> respectfully disagree.
> one of the side benefits of exercise is people who do it regularly tend to eat more healthily as well as they tend to become more health conscious overall.

  What I left out and thought it would be assumed is you cant just eat what you like and expect exercise to counteract it as it wont, you only have to look at the calorie of foods and the calories expended in exercise and there is a big gap.

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## Bros

> My principle adopted ~10 ears ago is: don't eat anything with more than five ingredients, don't eat anything with something in it you can't pronounce,

  Pretty much impossible nowdays.     

> After I made these dietary changes _and_ switched from margarine back to butter, skim milk back to full cream milk, stopped trimming fat off meat and bacon, etc, my weight went down by around 10 kilo, my bad cholesterol went down, my 'good' cholesterol went up, my blood pressure went down,

  A contradiction to all the diet science but I don't doubt your results.   

> my bald patch disappeared and my hairline is creeping back down my forehead. YMMV!

  You should be able to make some money from that and I thought it was poor choice of parents.

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## Bedford

> My principle adopted ~10 ears ago is: don't eat anything with more than five ingredients

  Well that wipes out KFC!

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## John2b

For thousands of years bread was made with just flour, water, salt & yeast. Now supermarket bread typically list between 20 and 25 ingredients. We make our own with just the original four ingredients. Tastes heaps better, keeps better, is cheaper and is healthier. What more could you want?

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## Marc

> Now we know how we did things in the past what of the future in a democratic society? 
> Fasting, diets of various forms, gut stapling etc is not the answer this is admission of failure we should not be in this position.  
> Governments is the western world are grappling with this problem and I don't thing there are any results. It took generations of heavy taxation and social stigma to put the smoking on the downhill slide. I have heard mention of a sugar tax but from my previous post sugar was part of the diet. You can't exercise your way to weight reduction as the calories expended would be far less than that consumed. I rarely see fat kids but I sure see a lot of fat young adults so something happens after they leave school to give this rather rapid weight gain unlike many posted here a slow increase in weigh gain over many many years. 
> I don't have the answer do you?

  Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. (Who said that?) 
Governments are not grappling with anything at all. They are the blind pretending to lead the blind and picking our pockets as they pass us.  
Many times when a person is presented with a new paradigm, the instant reaction is discomfort or plain rejection, A natural reaction yet not one that serves us. If a reason is requested, typically the answer is one pertinent to society as a whole. Reminds me of the personal development seminars where most argument were in the category ... "not everybody can do that". I would answer ... my goal today is that it works for you alone.  
in ancient times when religion was king it was easy to decree something that everyone had to follow, and the reason given was simple. God wants you to fast. Easy. Most people would comply. 
Today ... well good luck!  My wife has a very hard time talking people with obesity, high blood pressure diabetes, gout and a string of other problems into fasting even a modest  12 hours once a week. However she has some victories some time. Was telling me just this week about a patient who she spoke to about the benefits of fasting without much hope. A month later she showed up with a big grin on her face. She was waving her new blood test results and every single indicator had improved dramatically. She said, "I did what you told me". 
As far as diggin up the reasons for our collective poor health, I think most people know the basic reasons. One interesting find, was the reason why mediterraneans eat pasta at their heart content and don't get fat from it, yet Americans do.
The finding was that in Europe they still use ancient strains of wheat and no gmo whilst in the states they have the dwarf variety of wheat, modified for industrial purposes at the detriment of the real purpose that is human consumption.  
And there are a million of other true and imaginary causes of poor health relating to food. Finding what is affecting others is not conductive to our own health, only what affects us personally. 
If I could invent a supplement that had the same effect fasting has on the human body i would probably be a billionaire. 
Fasting is free, and is the best possible thing you can do to your body to reset it ... or reboot it if you prefer.
Did I mention it is free?  :Smilie:

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## UseByDate

People have been pondering this subject for some time. :Smilie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnRRqo292ws

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## Bros

> People have been pondering this subject for some time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnRRqo292ws

   Now I now Bran is the answer.

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## UseByDate

> Now I now Bran is the answer.

  Be wary of the chocolate biscuit. :Wink:

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## METRIX

Part of looking after your health is to get off the brain dead devices and get outside, breath some fresh air.  
Today was perfect weather to go for a walk, did a 19km return walk along the coastal track in the south of Sydney.  
Water was a bit cold but not too bad 
Eating healthy plays a huge role in how your body will hold up, I work with guys who get the meat pie and coke most mornings for breakfast and have fast food too often for lunch, normally you think of Tradies as healthy fit people, so many guys I see on sites are neither, even though they are doing physical work almost every day. 
This comes down to what they are eating which is a combination of the wrong stuff and too much of it, our bodies are not adapted to process the unnatural ingredients in all modern foods.  
Everything you eat these days has so many ingredients you need an app to decipher the long list of stuff you have never heard of.  
If you wondering why so many people these days have cancer take a look at what we eat, too many synthetic food additives in everything on the supermarket shelves and way too much sugar in everything.  
Of the hundreds of opinions on what you should and should not eat, if you listen to the completely contradictory advice from the many so called experts we should be eating nothing, saying that one thing they all agree on is sugar is very bad for us.  
The latest thing is the plastic they use to produce teabags, we all know teas like green tea are meant to be very good for you but they use plastic in the production of the paper bags which have now been shown to emit billions of micro and nano plastic into the teacup then you ingest this.  
These micro plastics are said to be highly toxic and carcinogenic, you might think it's just the "silken" pyramid bags that are the problem, the "silken" bags are being confused as being made from silk but in fact are plastic (marketing rubbish). 
But it's not only these silken bags that are the problem and these are meant to be the worst because of the high content of plastic in them, it's the paper bags as well, because during the manufacturing process of the paper for the bags they use plastic to bind the paper together so it can withstand the hot temperatures,  
There are very few brands available here that don't use plastic in the bag such as Pukka, Nerada is corrently on the process of eliminating plastic used for heat sealing the bags. 
What's the answer to this latest problem, drink loose leaf tea instead of tea bagged versions, loose leaf is said to be much better for you as the leaves are left intact ensuring you get the most from the tea leaf. 
The tea put into bags is deliberately crushed up to a small size to allow the machines to inject it into the bags, studies have shown when the tea is ground up so small the health benefits greatly reduce. 
To see how mass produced teabags are made watch the video below, another thing if you are a tea drinker is to ensure you only buy Certified Organic because they don't use the really toxic pesticides during production, which will end up in your cup of tea.    https://www.facebook.com/TreadingMyO...sn=mo&d=n&vh=e

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## Marc

Thank you for the information about tea bags Metrix ... I had no idea, but I don't drink much tea at all, just coffee  :Smilie:  (with full milk)

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## toooldforthis

> Thank you for the information about tea bags Metrix ...

  yes, saw that recent info on tea bags. 
never use em myself - always loose leaf tea.
this is because tea bags first came about as a solution to the problem of all the waste from loose leaf tea - someone decided to bag up all that _dust_.
it took a while but loose leaf tea became harder and harder to source as everything went into the _convenient_ tea bag.

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## PhilT2

> If you wondering why so many people these days have cancer take a look at what we eat, too many synthetic food additives in everything on the supermarket shelves and way too much sugar in everything.

  I think the real reason cancer claims so many is that now we live long enough to become susceptible to it. In ancient times when we all ate simple foods average lifespan was 35. Ah, the good old days.
I was at an event where an author , a lawyer, was launching his new book about how sugar was the cause of all our problems. Unfortunately for him there were a couple of scientists in the audience and they demolished his credibility in ten minutes. Not that the claims he made were wrong, they made sense and seemed reasonable at a casual glance. But he hadn't done the research to  be able to justify the statements he made. But the book sold well and he made money; giving people simple answers and telling them what they want to hear is usually rewarding.

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## fredgassit

John2B,  could you possibly share some of your bread recipes? 
Thanks.

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## Bros

> Today was perfect weather to go for a walk, did a 19km return walk along the coastal track in the south of Sydney.

    

> Of the hundreds of opinions on what you should and should not eat, if you listen to the completely contradictory advice from the many so called experts we should be eating nothing, saying that one thing they all agree on is sugar is very bad for us.

   Well maybe, maybe not we will have to just wait some time to find out. I remember that eggs were bad for you and as for Avocado it was akin to poison but over time this has been found to be incorrect. 
I use to eat sugar when I was a kid as my father used to bring some home but I was never to fussed on the rest of it as it was quite chewy.

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## Bros

> I think the real reason cancer claims so many is that now we live long enough to become susceptible to it. In ancient times when we all ate simple foods average lifespan was 35. Ah, the good old days.

  I agree as we have the longest life span in history as most men retired at 65 and were dead in two yrs   

> I was at an event where an author , a lawyer, was launching his new book about how sugar was the cause of all our problems. Unfortunately for him there was a couple of scientists in the audience and they demolished his credibility in ten minutes. Not that the claims he made were wrong, they made sense and seemed reasonable at a casual glance. But he hadn't done the research to  be able to justify the statements he made. But the book sold well and he made money; giving people simple answers and telling them what they want to hear is usually rewarding.

  I read his book but I was not entirely impressed when he was association sugar and sugar in fruit as being bad, but he made money from his book and maybe that was the main objective.

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## Marc

The main thing to keep in mind when you talk about health, is 
A) we know very little about how our body really works.
B) we know very little about how every component in our food affects our body
C) we know very little about what is in our food, be it intentionally or accidentally.  
So to state that we get cancer because we are old, or that sugar is bad, are both in the old wife tale category. And so are fat is bad, bread is bad, meat is bad, veggies are good, fish is good, water must have magnesium and be alcanilised, water from Lourdes makes you grow back all your teeth etc. 
The only thing that we know from empirical evidence, is that our body regardless of age, is capable to heal itself if we can free it from the everyday tasks of metabolising food all day every day. 
It is the irrefutable truth proven beyond reasonable doubt by modern day medicine. 
However ... a lot of people get into a panic just from hearing this words. Going without food seems like an impossible task and the brain will find hundred and one reasons to say this is wrong. 
When it is imposed, like in the case of ramadan, people go into a frenzy of buying all sorts of food to consume at night. In Egypt the food consumption is triple during ramadan. 
Needless to say that such is not conducive to any health benefit, rather the opposite.  
Check out what happens as days go by without food.

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## PhilT2

> The only thing that we know from empirical evidence, is that our body regardless of age, is capable to heal itself if we can free it from the everyday tasks of metabolising food all day every day. 
> It is the irrefutable truth proven beyond reasonable doubt by modern day medicine.

  Love to see some of this evidence, hopefully from somebody with real qualifications from a real university not the youtube overnight school of chiro naturepathetic homeopathy.

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## Marc

As you wish, took me the whole of 2 seconds to find this. 
Much more out there for those with real interest. https://www.healthline.com/nutrition...efits#section1 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-2018062914156 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680567/ https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/323605.php https://scopeblog.stanford.edu/2016/...ce-based-diet/ 
And then there is the opinion of Dr Phil of course, but I couldn't find any publications  :Smilie:

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## PhilT2

You've made a very broad claim that our bodies can heal if we free it from the everyday task of eating. If I could just see the studies that fasting works with the following; autism, bubonic plague, cholera, dementia. ebola, fractures, gangrene etc. All your link has is studies that show overweight people benefit from eating less (wow) some changes in blood chemistry (permanent? who knows) and some studies showing that rats get less cancer, (we really need that) The linked studies are also heavily provisional eg "may lower blood sugar" "could delay aging",  
What I object to is the promotion of one thing as a miracle cure all; sure, fasting has some small benefits, as long as you do a whole lot of other things as well. Claims that it can "detoxify" and "boost the immune system" are hallmarks of quackery.

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## Marc

Obviously you did not watch the video by DR Mindi Peltz nor Dr Michael Mosley nor the many others that have dedicated the last 10 years in studying the subject.
Your own opinion seems to be much more important to you.
Have it your way, I gain nothing from your no anyone else's health or lack of it. 
As for your ridiculous reply, you fit the pattern i described before. "This is not for everyone" ... seen it all before. 
All I want is this to work for you Phil, not for everyone else.

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## r3nov8or

> You've made a very broad claim that our bodies can heal if we free it from the everyday task of eating. If I could just see the studies that fasting works with the following; autism, bubonic plague, cholera, dementia. ebola, fractures, gangrene etc. All your link has is studies that show overweight people benefit from eating less (wow) some changes in blood chemistry (permanent? who knows) and some studies showing that rats get less cancer, (we really need that) The linked studies are also heavily provisional eg "may lower blood sugar" "could delay aging",  
> ...

  Autism? Surprised you didn't include homosexuality

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## PhilT2

My opinion is worth every cent you paid for it. However for a similar investment you can obtain the opinion of many properly qualified medical professionals who will tell you that chiropractic is a fraud and has no basis in science. Many times chiropractitioners have been challenged to produce the research that forms the basis for their treatments and they have failed every time. So I didn't waste a lot of time on the video by Ms Peltz.  
So you're right, it's not for everyone. Support for a bunch of quacks and fraudsters who have done real harm by advising against childhood vaccinations, as some chiros do, definitely not for me.

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## PhilT2

> Autism? Surprised you didn't include homosexuality

  Only got to G, that was next. But you have to go to a homeopath to cure that. https://edzardernst.com/2016/01/cath...homosexuality/

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## Marc

Avoidance strategies come in many forms, and I mentioned the collectivistic approach before. Sceptics suddenly become altruistic and state that if it does not fit everyone then it is not genuine. The reality is that nothing fits all, and no one ever claims this to be so. Not even Chiropractors nor the Queen's own personal homeopathic doctor or the state's lottery. 
PS
Actually the only one to claim one size fits all are religions ... piti that every one of hundreds forms of religion claim the same contradicting each other. Yes, humans are truly funny when they make radical statements.  
See below a summary of some of the benefits of fasting. Yes, every one is preceded by the verb "May".
Not for everyone  :Smilie:   * 
8 Health Benefits of Fasting, Backed by Science*  
Despite its recent surge in popularity, fasting is a practice that dates back centuries and plays a central role in many cultures and religions.
Defined as the abstinence from all or some foods or drinks for a set period of time, there are many different ways of fasting.
In general, most types of fasts are performed over 24–72 hours.
Intermittent fasting, on the other hand, involves cycling between periods of eating and fasting, ranging from a few hours to a few days at a time.
Fasting has been shown to have many health benefits, from increased weight loss to better brain function.
Here are 8 health benefits of fasting — backed by science.  Share on Pinterest*1. Promotes Blood Sugar Control by Reducing Insulin Resistance*  
Several studies have found that fasting may improve blood sugar control, which could be especially useful for those at risk of diabetes.
In fact, one study in 10 people with type 2 diabetes showed that short-term intermittent fasting significantly decreased blood sugar levels (1Trusted Source).
Meanwhile, another review found that both intermittent fasting and alternate-day fasting were as effective as limiting calorie intake at reducing insulin resistance (2Trusted Source).
Decreasing insulin resistance can increase your body’s sensitivity to insulin, allowing it to transport glucose from your bloodstream to your cells more efficiently.
Coupled with the potential blood sugar-lowering effects of fasting, this could help keep your blood sugar steady, preventing spikes and crashes in your blood sugar levels.
Keep in mind though that some studies have found that fasting may impact blood sugar levels differently for men and women.
For instance, one small, three-week study showed that practicing alternate-day fasting impaired blood sugar control in women but had no effect in men (3Trusted Source).*SUMMARY*Intermittent fasting and alternate-day fasting could help decrease blood sugar levels and reduce insulin resistance but may affect men and women differently.  *2. Promotes Better Health by Fighting Inflammation*  
While acute inflammation is a normal immune process used to help fight off infections, chronic inflammation can have serious consequences for your health.
Research shows that inflammation may be involved in the development of chronic conditions, such as heart disease, cancer and rheumatoid arthritis (4Trusted Source).
Some studies have found that fasting can help decrease levels of inflammation and help promote better health.
One study in 50 healthy adults showed that intermittent fasting for one month significantly decreased levels of inflammatory markers (5Trusted Source).
Another small study discovered the same effect when people fasted for 12 hours a day for one month (6Trusted Source).
What’s more, one animal study found that following a very low-calorie diet to mimic the effects of fasting reduced levels of inflammation and was beneficial in the treatment of multiple sclerosis, a chronic inflammatory condition (7Trusted Source).*SUMMARY*Some studies have found that fasting could decrease several markers of inflammation and may be useful in treating inflammatory conditions, such as multiple sclerosis.       *3. May Enhance Heart Health by Improving Blood Pressure, Triglycerides and Cholesterol Levels*  
Heart disease is considered the leading cause of death around the world, accounting for an estimated 31.5% of deaths globally (8Trusted Source).
Switching up your diet and lifestyle is one of the most effective ways to reduce your risk of heart disease.
Some research has found that incorporating fasting into your routine may be especially beneficial when it comes to heart health.
One small study revealed that eight weeks of alternate-day fasting reduced levels of “bad” LDL cholesterol and blood triglycerides by 25% and 32% respectively (9Trusted Source).
Another study in 110 obese adults showed that fasting for three weeks under medical supervision significantly decreased blood pressure, as well as levels of blood triglycerides, total cholesterol and “bad” LDL cholesterol (10Trusted Source).
In addition, one study in 4,629 people associated fasting with a lower risk of coronary artery disease, as well as a significantly lower risk of diabetes, which is a major risk factor for heart disease (11Trusted Source).*SUMMARY*Fasting has been associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease and may help lower blood pressure, triglycerides and cholesterol levels. ADVERTISING     *4. May Boost Brain Function and Prevent Neurodegenerative Disorders*  
Though research is mostly limited to animal research, several studies have found that fasting could have a powerful effect on brain health.
One study in mice showed that practicing intermittent fasting for 11 months improved both brain function and brain structure (12Trusted Source).
Other animal studies have reported that fasting could protect brain health and increase the generation of nerve cells to help enhance cognitive function (13Trusted Source, 14Trusted Source).
Because fasting may also help relieve inflammation, it could also aid in preventing neurodegenerative disorders.
In particular, studies in animals suggest that fasting may protect against and improve outcomes for conditions such as Alzheimer’s disease and Parkinson’s (15Trusted Source, 16Trusted Source).
However, more studies are needed to evaluate the effects of fasting on brain function in humans.*SUMMARY*Animal studies show that fasting could improve brain function, increase nerve cell synthesis and protect against neurodegenerative conditions, such as Alzheimer’s disease and Parkinson’s.     *5. Aids Weight Loss by Limiting Calorie Intake and Boosting Metabolism*  
Many dieters pick up fasting looking for a quick and easy way to drop a few pounds.
Theoretically, abstaining from all or certain foods and beverages should decrease your overall calorie intake, which could lead to increased weight loss over time.
Some research has also found that short-term fasting may boost metabolism by increasing levels of the neurotransmitter norepinephrine, which could enhance weight loss (17Trusted Source).
In fact, one review showed that whole-day fasting could reduce body weight by up to 9% and significantly decrease body fat over 12–24 weeks (18Trusted Source).
Another review found that intermittent fasting over 3–12 weeks was as effective in inducing weight loss as continuous calorie restriction and decreased body weight and fat mass by up to 8% and 16% respectively (19Trusted Source).
In addition, fasting was found to be more effective than calorie restriction at increasing fat loss while simultaneously preserving muscle tissue (19Trusted Source).*SUMMARY*Fasting may increase metabolism and help preserve muscle tissue to reduce body weight and body fat.      *6. Increases Growth Hormone Secretion, Which Is Vital for Growth, Metabolism, Weight Loss and Muscle Strength*  
Human growth hormone (HGH) is a type of protein hormone that is central to many aspects of your health.
In fact, research shows that this key hormone is involved in growth, metabolism, weight loss and muscle strength (20Trusted Source, 21Trusted Source, 22Trusted Source, 23Trusted Source).
Several studies have found that fasting could naturally increase HGH levels.
One study in 11 healthy adults showed that fasting for 24 hours significantly increased levels of HGH (24Trusted Source).
Another small study in nine men found that fasting for just two days led to a 5-fold increase in the HGH production rate (25Trusted Source).
Plus, fasting may help maintain steady blood sugar and insulin levels throughout the day, which may further optimize levels of HGH, as some research has found that sustaining increased levels of insulin may reduce HGH levels (26Trusted Source).*SUMMARY*Studies show that fasting can increase levels of human growth hormone (HGH), an important protein hormone that plays a role in growth, metabolism, weight loss and muscle strength.*7. Could Delay Aging and Extend Longevity*  
Several animal studies have found promising results on the potential lifespan-extending effects of fasting.
In one study, rats that fasted every other day experienced a delayed rate of aging and lived 83% longer than rats that didn’t fast (27Trusted Source).
Other animal studies have had similar findings, reporting that fasting could be effective in increasing longevity and survival rates (28Trusted Source, 29Trusted Source, 30Trusted Source).
However, current research is still limited to animal studies. Further studies are needed to understand how fasting may impact longevity and aging in humans.*SUMMARY*Animal studies have found that fasting could delay aging and increase longevity, but human research is still lacking. *8. May Aid in Cancer Prevention and Increase the Effectiveness of Chemotherapy*  
Animal and test-tube studies indicate that fasting may benefit the treatment and prevention of cancer.
In fact, one rat study found that alternate-day fasting helped block tumor formation (31Trusted Source).
Similarly, a test-tube study showed that exposing cancer cells to several cycles of fasting was as effective as chemotherapy in delaying tumor growth and increased the effectiveness of chemotherapy drugs on cancer formation (32Trusted Source).
Unfortunately, most research is limited to the effects of fasting on cancer formation in animals and cells.
Despite these promising findings, additional studies are needed to look at how fasting may influence cancer development and treatment in humans.*SUMMARY*Some animal and test-tube studies suggest that fasting could block tumor development and increase the effectiveness of chemotherapy.

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## r3nov8or

The 16/8 diet has been spruiked recently (fasting for 16 hours, eating only in an 8 hour window). From the chart above, it appears it (i.e. daily 16 hour fasting) assists Autophagy & HGH and Blood Glucose/Insulin. Presumably if one can control eating within the daily 8 hour window to one regular meal, or two small ones, then all these add up to good things including moderate weight loss. Thoughts?

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## Marc

So with that one you would have your dinner at say 7 pm, and then nothing till lunch. Basically you skip breakfast and have light lunch and dinner. 
Sure a good way to kick start a good habit.
And if someone tells you that breakfast is the most important meal of the day, just say yes.  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> John2B,  could you possibly share some of your bread recipes? Thanks.

  I am overseas at the moment, so I don't have the time to do justice to your question. Basically bread doesn't come from a recipe, as it is just flour, water, yeast and salt. The secret is in the process and success comes with practice. For 1 loaf about 500g flour (I use organic wholemeal), 300g water and 1-2 teaspoons salt and 100g of starter. What is important is the feel of the dough so you might have to adjust to suit the specific flour you are using and the type of bread you like. Salt is to taste, so adjust accordingly. 
I make a sourdough yeast, which is just equal parts water and organic rye flour to make a "starter". The 'wild' yeast is already on the rye flour from the outside of the grain before it was milled, so all that's happening is providing the environment for the yeast to multiply. I keep the starter in the fridge so it goes to sleep and I don't have to feed it daily. I feed it the day before I need it, and if I am in a real hurry I put a ½ teaspoon of raw sugar in the starter to accelerate the yeast. If I am really in a hurry I add some bakers yeast to the dough mix. Yeast consumes starches and sugars and gives off CO2 gas, which is what raises the bread. 
You use the starter once it's bubbly and add it to the other ingredients to make the dough mix. The amount you add isn't critically important, but more starter means less time before the yeast has multiplied enough to make enough CO2 to raise the dough so the bread is ready to bake. With a sour dough mix I only do one rise - I don't punch it down and expect it to rise again. I bake the loaf as soon as it has risen to the maximum height that it is going to rise, i.e. when it has stopped rising. 
Sourdough yeast acts (multiplies) best at about body temperature, so put the mixture covered somewhere warm. The time it takes to rise is the time it takes to rise - sometimes that's a couple of hours and sometimes it's 24 hours. I have often baked bread after midnight because that was when it was ready to go into the oven. Preheated oven temperature should be ~210 degrees and bake for 30 minutes (test by the sound of tapping on the top - it should sound hollow). You'll need to adjust the temp and time to suit your oven, shape of bread tin size of loaf etc. 
My wife won't eat bread made in a bread-maker and loves kneading the dough by hand, but I use a large food processor with dough hook that holds the mixture for 2 loafs and takes just a few minutes to prepare as all the ingredients and thrown in together and the dough is ready to 'tin' just a couple of minutes after it has formed into a ball rolling around in the bowl. 
Mixture too sloppy? Add flour. Mixture too crumbly? Add water.
Not rising - yeast not active. Warm mixture to 35 degrees to encourage yeast to grow, leave longer, if using dried yeast try a different yeast.
Not crusty enough - oven not hot enough. Too thick or burnt crust - oven too hot.
Doughy inside - not long enough in oven. Too dry - too long in oven.
Bread has no strength - protein content of flour too low. Use a bakers or high protein flour, not regular flour which is for biscuits and cakes. 
Oiling and dusting the baking tins with flour should mean that loaves fall out. I don't wash the tins between baking loafs as that helps. I also prefer the old baking tins like our grandmothers used, not the modern non-stick ones. I scouted around in secondhand stores to find the size I like, which are Australian Willow brand orange cake tins, and have "Orange Cake" embossed in the bottom.

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## Marc

Nice, we too make sourdough in preference to baker's yeast.  Once I'll get my pizza oven going i'll buy a kneading machine. Any excuse is good to buy new tools  :Smilie: 
Do you have a prefered brand ?

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## John2b

Ideally get a small commercial mixer with a dough hook and ~10 Lt bowl. There's usually plenty in the commercial auctions. Something like:

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## Bros

There is one problem with making your own bread and that is the smell.

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## r3nov8or

> There is one problem with making your own bread and that is the smell.

  What, that it makes you want to eat it all there and then?  :Smilie:

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## Bros

> What, that it makes you want to eat it all there and then?

  Thats the problem a lot of restraint is needed

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## r3nov8or

> Thats the problem a lot of restraint is needed

  Must be eaten with the saltiest butter you can find haha

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## fredgassit

John2b: 
Thank you.

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## Bros

I subscribe to a newsletter written by Noel Whittaker who is an investment adviser in his past life (mainly about retirement) but I have never used him as such but he writes a lot of sense.  Marc would love what he has to say here.    

> Health Matters 
> This week I celebrate my 80th birthday, so you can imagine that one of my keen fields of interest is how to continue to live a long and healthy life. My main read over Christmas was a newly published book Lifespan Why We Age—and Why We Don't Have To by David A. Sinclair; an acclaimed Harvard Medical School scientist.
> The blurb for the book says “It’s a seemingly undeniable truth that aging is inevitable. But what if everything we’ve been taught to believe about aging is wrong? What if we could choose our lifespan?"  
> In this groundbreaking book, Dr. David Sinclair, leading world authority on genetics and longevity, reveals a bold new theory for why we age. As he writes: “Aging is a disease, and that disease is treatable.”
> This eye-opening and provocative work takes us to the frontlines of research that is pushing the boundaries on our perceived scientific limitations, revealing incredible breakthroughs—many from Dr. David Sinclair’s own lab at Harvard—that demonstrate how we can slow down, or even reverse, aging. The key is activating newly discovered vitality genes, the descendants of an ancient genetic survival circuit that is both the cause of aging and the key to reversing it. Recent experiments in genetic reprogramming suggest that in the near future we may not just be able to feel younger, but actually become younger.  
> Through a page-turning narrative, Dr. Sinclair invites you into the process of scientific discovery and reveals the emerging technologies and simple lifestyle changes—such as intermittent fasting, cold exposure, exercising with the right intensity, and eating less meat—that have been shown to help us live younger and healthier for longer. At once a roadmap for taking charge of our own health destiny and a bold new vision for the future of humankind, Lifespan will forever change the way we think about why we age and what we can do about it.” 
> In parts, the book is quite technical, but I guess the main message is that we can possibly delay ageing by stressing the body by aerobics exercise, cold showers or jumping in a cold pool, and intermittent fasting. It’s really not difficult to work 20 minutes of aerobic exercise into most days, and Geraldine and I have now devoted to days a week where we finish our evening meal by 6 PM and don’t eat again until 10 AM. It’s really not hard to do once you decide to do it. Instead of getting up, having breakfast and then writing columns, I now get up right columns that have breakfast. The activity of work takes your mind off food.

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## Marc

Good for you Bros & Geraldine for taking up intermittent fasting and exercise. You can try exposure to cold by having a cold shower after your usual warm shower. I have done this all my life, learned from my mother as a kid and never stopped doing it. I can swim in the river in winter without as much as blinking. It is incredibly invigorating. 
It is all about increasing blood flow. Sauna is also good for you, but from all 3, fasting exercise and cold showers, the best is fasting by far. 
About fasting I can tell you from experience that you have to be careful and do it gradually. THe reason is that when you go past 12 hours without food, the body goes into ketosis and starts to use the food stored in the freezer because your fridge is empty ( so to speak). However your freezer is full of very old food that you have never used and it may have toxins that can make you sick. 
So take it easy. Plenty of time to do one or two days of full fasting every month or two. That is a great challenge, and you will start to lose weight with an easy you will not believe.

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## Bros

> Good for you Bros & Geraldine for taking up intermittent fasting and exercise.

  Hey you didn't read my post and it doesn't refer to me it is an extract from a newsletter written by Noel Whitaker, I saw it and remembered it from what you posted. 
On a personal note I get excema and it comes and goes and is a nuisance and I have been to many dermatologists with varying success but I was reading something written by a navy ships captain that during his live he only had cold showers and he credits that with him having good skin. I've never tried it but a bloke told me that you start off warm then cut the hot water off slowly and you can tolerate it and it works but I have never done it on a continuous basis.

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## Marc

Ha ha, that's a good one, your age should have been a give away ...  :Rofl5: 
Anyway, my bad. Cold shower increases blood flow in the skin so it may be useful for eczema. Nothing to lose trying. The shock si what helps so no gradually, just opne the cold full and close the hot  :Smilie:

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## r3nov8or

In mid November I decided to start Keto. 
9 weeks later, all I can say is that the results are astonishing

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## Marc

:2thumbsup: 
Keep it for yourself.

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## phild01

> In mid November I decided to start Keto. 
> 9 weeks later, all I can say is that the results are astonishing

  Don't think I could be without my potatoes, corn, grains, ice cream, sugar ...... :Frown:

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## Marc

There is a study of a few thousand twins, were one tried all sorts of diets and the other did not.
The result? The one on diets are overweight. 
You don't need to get off anything in a radical way, if you are game to fast. Look up intermittent fasting and try one of the many ways you can achieve this. When you are not fasting you can eat whatever you want, I suppose I have to add in moderation, just don't go eating 3 pizzas a one kilo gourmet ice cream  :Smilie:

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## r3nov8or

> Keep it for yourself.

  Pretty hard to when the kilos are falling off and every second person asks how

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## Marc

Yes, well ... every person is different. I remember working in a busy office and overhearing the comments about each other when one started a diet. Pretty discouraging. Not for me mind you. It is the crab syndrome.

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## r3nov8or

> Yes, well ... every person is different.

  Absolutely. 
Just remember that when you are fasting, your are in fact doing mini-keto  :Smilie:

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## PhilT2

Getting health advice off the internet has always been a bit iffy and there is no sign that may change anytime soon.

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## PhilT2

Recent study on some of the issues with keto  https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...019.00880/full

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## Marc

> Getting health advice off the internet has always been a bit iffy and there is no sign that may change anytime soon.

  The study is a brief study on athletes at world championship level undertaking a sudden change in diet, not adapted to it, of a low carbohydrate and high fat diet. 
To try to draw a bow between that study and everyday dudes who want to lose weight via keto diet, or intermittent fasting is a bit ... how to say ... creative. 
Did you even understand the article?

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## r3nov8or

> Recent study on some of the issues with keto  https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...019.00880/full

  Did you find the one saying the opposite? It'll be out there somewhere, just as there are mulitple contradictory articles for every other aspect of the diet's impact on every organ in your body  :Smilie:

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## Marc

Only ten years ago some dyed in the wool allopathic doctors where still telling you with sarcasm that multivitamins make expensive urine, even after the most prestigious and conservative publications changed their tune.  
When it comes to nutrition and diets, the western medicine has done so many mistakes and parroted so many lies, knowingly or otherwise, that it is completely discredited. At the moment they are stumbling and limping behind what other medical professionals interested in nutrition are doing, fending off and attempting to discredit them only to save face.  
Perhaps the biggest damage done to man's health is the so called "food pyramid" and the moronic concept of many small feed a day "to kick start your metabolism" ... and who has ever heard of "The most important meal is breakfast?" 
The best diet anyone can undertake and that will never fail, is to stop eating. Skip meals, reduce portions and eat what you want in moderation. Fast once a week half a day or if you are game one whole day, and reduce the number of meals to two and if possible one. 
And eat whatever you want when you feel like eating. If you are not hungry, don't. Most of the time what we register as hunger is in fact thirst.

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## PhilT2

> Did you find the one saying the opposite? It'll be out there somewhere, just as there are mulitple contradictory articles for every other aspect of the diet's impact on every organ in your body

  There's a difference between information from the Kardashians and the Harvard medical school.  Keto has positive effects, weight loss primarily, but it has also long been known to help with epilepsy because it slows down brain activity; if you don't have epilepsy do you really need that? The downside is heart disease, liver and kidney problems and bone density issues.

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## pharmaboy2

Keto when used medically is usually a short term diet - its designed to stress the metabolism of seriously obese people from memory, but usuallt only a few weeks to few months - its not a long term lifestye change.   however its rare, and not something done by GP's even - so I'd consider it a dangerous diet without medical supervision.

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## r3nov8or

> There's a difference between information from the Kardashians and the Harvard medical school.  Keto has positive effects, weight loss primarily, but it has also long been known to help with epilepsy because it slows down brain activity; if you don't have epilepsy do you really need that? The downside is heart disease, liver and kidney problems and bone density issues.

  I've read nothing the Kardashians have written about keto.

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## r3nov8or

> Keto when used medically is usually a short term diet - its designed to stress the metabolism of seriously obese people from memory, but usuallt only a few weeks to few months - its not a long term lifestye change.   however its rare, and not something done by GP's even - so I'd consider it a dangerous diet without medical supervision.

  During consultations with two GPs and my respiratory specialist, all are pleased I am losing weight and none are concerned that I am doing it with keto

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## Bros

> During consultations with two GPs and my respiratory specialist, all are pleased I am losing weight and none are concerned that I am doing it with keto

   I don’t think it matters how you do it. One thing you have to watch is if you are on insulin or blood pressure medication.

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## pharmaboy2

> During consultations with two GPs and my respiratory specialist, all are pleased I am losing weight and none are concerned that I am doing it with keto

  theres a difference between prescribing a diet and  and not trying to interfere with something a patient is doing. 
Just to let you know, its a typical yo yo diet  -weight falls off and usually is put back on when people quit - so the important thing is transitioning to a lifestyle change that keeps the weight off that youve just lost.  the easiest way to do this is go and see a dietitian, probably now to help you transition and slow the weight loss down so it can become the new normal for you. 
Theres an endo Dr Proietto that uses this kind of diet for the morbidly obese  - he was part of a series on SBS, "the obesity myth" - its amongst the best docos ive ever seen on this subject.  I spent a number of years working with endocrinologists in bone health , hence the interest.

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## r3nov8or

Thanks PB2. I'm all over it

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## UseByDate

> Yes, well ... every person is different.

  I'm not. :Smilie:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbzSif78qQ

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## r3nov8or

> I'm not.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHbzSif78qQ

  Without viewing, Life of Brian. Classic  :Smilie:

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## UseByDate

> Without viewing, Life of Brian. Classic

   :2thumbsup:

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## toooldforthis

> The secret to a long and healthy life? Eat less

  https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...-life-eat-less

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## Marc

Best book to read if you are interested in winning the battle of the bulge. 
https://www.amazon.com.au/Obesity-Code-Unlocking-Secrets-Weight/dp/1925321517/ref=asc_df_1925321517/?tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=341792439332&hvpos=&hvnetw=  g&hvrand=17228387397927391325&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqm  t=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071723&hv  targid=pla-674607352050&psc=1

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## John2b

> https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...-life-eat-less

   What goes in... - doh!

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## toooldforthis

> What goes in... - doh!

  some still don't get it.

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## Marc

I agree, less food intake is better than too much.
However it is not that simple. 
The idea that "less calories" is the way to go, and that low fat is best, is at the base of the epidemic of obesity in the last 50 years. The "food pyramid" is another falsehood perpetuated at our expense for decades.
Our body response to food or no food or bad food, low fat, no protein, all protein and the rest of the fads invented for commercial reasons, is poorly understood and at the base of understanding why almost all people who take up a diet, fail miserably in lowering their body weight. 
As for that long article, whenever you see people quoting studies of animals that draw a bow to you, just think for a minute ... are you are monkey? a rat? We are neither. The only valid studies are based on humans and we have massive database and plenty of live specimens to study.

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## r3nov8or

As some may recall, I started a keto diet in mid-November'19. In the 19th week, late March, I'd lost 30kg - reached my goal. The past two months have been satifyingly slower in terms of loss, with a total of just 1.6kg down. I've started introducing a few good carbs and will soon start resistance exercise. I'm committed to always being 'healthy low-carb' now. I've learnt so much. I'm convinced, after so many failed attempts, that my body simply does not know what to do with excess carbs, so I'm not playing that game any more. It will be delicate balance, but I now have a known failsafe if I somehow lose control. I'm really enjoying cooking healthy meals, which have never been so colourful nor tasty in living memory - sometimes I cook my own side to the family's protein, sometimes I do my own thing, sometimes I'll just sit with them and chat because I don't need a 3rd meal everyday. "Hunger" is something I no longer experience. Most common high-carb foods are simply unhealthy and unnecessary vehicles for tastier, more nutritious foods. There is much more about this change to "me" that I could say, but plenty of others have already... Next update in November.

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## Marc

Good for you R3no ... Unfortunately the medical establishment is no help for the vast majority of overweight and diabetic that make the bulk of the over 40 in western countries.
I have one meal a day and don't need more than that. I eat whatever I want but all cooked in house. 
I am 1.72 high and weight 76 kg at age 70. When I watch others younger than me that look like my father, bent and shaky carrying large envelops on their way to the specialist, i think, I probably had a good draw in the genetics department but also I may just be doing the right thing with activity and food.  
A long time ago an "alternative" doctor told me that our body is not built for 3 meals a day plus snacks. Rather built for 3 meals a week. Going without food or "hungry", (most people wouldn't know what real hunger is if it hit them in the face), is the best thing you can do. Fasting, is the best tool against most modern day ailments, not only excess weight, fatty liver and diabetes jost some of them. 
Unfortunately, organised religion has given fasting a bad image, and has people associating it with fanaticism and bigotry.

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## Marc

> https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...-life-eat-less

   

> What goes in... - doh!

  Calories In - Calories out = Body Fat 
The above, perpetuated by half a century or quacks, assumes that calories intake and expenditure are independent.  
If I eat less, and my calories expenditure remains the same, I must lose weight. A simple fact that is true, if only calories expenditure remained the same.
Problem is that it does not. We obsess about calories input, but what really matters is calories output.
And that is completely regulated by the body hormones. 
The body is not a storage compartment, but a self regulating machine with a set body weight. Acting like a thermostat, the body will burn as much or as little energy as necessary to keep the body in the weight that it is set by a complex hormonal system. 
Countless experiments with starvation and overfeeding humans ( not monkeys) has proven time and time again that it is not possible to make someone fat or make someone thin by simply varying the calories intake. Yes the body may experience small reduction or increase in fat stored _temporarily_, only to revert back to the set weight. Yoyo diet or yoyo effect is mostly blamed on the overweight persons's lack of willpower, but will has nothing to do with it.  
Another myth is exercise. Exercise more and lose weight? False. Exercise has many health benefits but losing weight is not one of them.  
Solution? Stay tuned, all will be revealed.  :Smilie:

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## Bros

I'm one of many who have struggled with weight over the years and if people were honest there would be many her on the forum who are the same. We would have all run across the skinny eat and drink anything and never put on weight (my FIL was like that) unfortunately i am not one of those. 
I have has two relations who have had the gut surgery. One was my SIL who had something done 20 yrs ago and she is like a house now. The second was a different SIL who had the gut reducing surgery in Australia followed up by surgery in Thailand to reduce the flabby skin and boob job over several trips. Initially it got rid of her diabetes and could only eat a small portion of food. Now 5 yrs later she has her diabetes back and a lot of the weight she lost. So that type of approach is fantastic short term but long term doesn't seem so good for some people. 
I think I said it before when i was getting my hair cur and the previous hair dresser who I hadn't seen for over a yr served me and I never recognised her and she said she had gut surgery and could only eat half a boiled egg for a meal. She also said she hadn't had a crap for two weeks so maybe fixing her weight exposed her to the possibility of bowel cancer in future. 
There are many smart people working on the weight problem for people and many equally smart people trying to get people to eat high energy high fat low fiber food.

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## woodbe

> Another myth is exercise. Exercise more and lose weight? False. Exercise has many health benefits but losing weight is not one of them.

  There is always changes of the exercise and the lose of weight.   
My weight was getting very high when I was younger, working with no normal exercise.  
Then I was able to change my work, and able to walk every day, and took around a year for the weight to come back normal.  
It also decide how much walk/run/etc you do, how much food etc you eat, and what kind of food you have.

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## toooldforthis

> I'm one of many who have struggled with weight over the years and if people were honest there would be many her on the forum who are the same. We would have all run across the skinny eat and drink anything and never put on weight (my FIL was like that) unfortunately i am not one of those. 
> I have has two relations who have had the gut surgery. One was my SIL who had something done 20 yrs ago and she is like a house now. The second was a different SIL who had the gut reducing surgery in Australia followed up by surgery in Thailand to reduce the flabby skin and boob job over several trips. Initially it got rid of her diabetes and could only eat a small portion of food. Now 5 yrs later she has her diabetes back and a lot of the weight she lost. So that type of approach is fantastic short term but long term doesn't seem so good for some people. 
> I think I said it before when i was getting my hair cur and the previous hair dresser who I hadn't seen for over a yr served me and I never recognised her and she said she had gut surgery and could only eat half a boiled egg for a meal. She also said she hadn't had a crap for two weeks so maybe fixing her weight exposed her to the possibility of bowel cancer in future. 
> There are many smart people working on the weight problem for people and many equally smart people trying to get people to eat high energy high fat low fiber food.

  I think we al know of people who struggle with this.
And a lot of fails. 
Overall imho it seems that people who want to lose weight, if they do lose it, they just go back to their old lifestyle, and are then surprised/disappointed they put the weight back on.
diet/exercise/activity is a *lifestyle* choice.
and by _diet_ I mean healthy eating - not diet as in lose weight.

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## toooldforthis

> Best book to read if you are interested in winning the battle of the bulge. 
> https://www.amazon.com.au/Obesity-Code-Unlocking-Secrets-Weight/dp/1925321517/ref=asc_df_1925321517/?tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=341792439332&hvpos=&hvnetw=  g&hvrand=17228387397927391325&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqm  t=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071723&hv  targid=pla-674607352050&psc=1

  I haven't read that particular book  

> In this highly readable and provocative book, Dr Jason Fung sets out a ground breaking new theory- that obesity is caused by our hormones, rather than a lack of self-control.   He reveals that overproduction of insulin in the body is the root cause of obesity and obesity-related illnesses, including type 2 diabetes, and offers robust scientific evidence that reversing insulin resistance is the only way to lose weight in the long term.   It turns out that when we eat is just as important as what we eat

  but I have read a bit around that and it makes a lot of sense to me.
I think some of Mosley's SBS documentaries covered that? 
As for people who blame their hormones for the obesity, well, maybe they are right, but do they realise insulin is a hormone and it is something they can control with their diet?
(I have had a couple of very obese friends over the years who said their doctor told them it was their hormones - therefore there was nothing they could do about it! 2 had gut surgery - with the predictable outcomes)

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## John2b

Insulin causes obesity - that's a good one! Funny how there were almost zero zip nil obese people around in the 50s and 60s when there was a shortage of food, and / or no money in the family budget for hambergers, chips, ice cream and Coke.

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## Marc

When the topic of food and obesity comes to be, the audience is divided. On the surface the opinions are divided into the "blame the fat guy" on one side, and the "blame the system/food/etc" on the other. 
However I make a different division, much easier. The division is between the ignorant on one side. Ignorants who in their deep ignorance, spew out flippant remarks based on hot air, thinking they know better than 3 generations of medical professionals struggling to find an answer. Nothing new. 
On the other side, those who bother to search the root causes of a modern day epidemic that is gripping way more than 50% of the population and that is not restricted to the aesthetics of a beer belly, but that is the root cause of a string of illnes that turn out to be terminal.  
In 1825, Anthelme Brillant-Savarin wrote "The physiology of Taste", a book that for the first time identified what he called - "the chief causes of obesity", the _floury and starchy substances. _ But his book made no headlines. Everyone knew that, any mother could tell his family what to avoid to stay thin. 
So what happened?  
In the fifties, the americans were told they were in the middle of a heart attack epidemic. But where they? 
After WW2 and with the event of penicilin, people stopped dying from tuberculosis, gangrene and septicemia and started to live longer. The longer you live the closer you are statistically to have a heart attack. The US started to see what they thought was an epidemic and started to look for a villain.  
Fat was the answer. "With great enthusiasm and shaky science, the demonisation of dietary fat began" writes Dr Jason Fung. 
There was a problem though. There are 3 types of nutrients, fat, protein and carbohydrates. Lower fat and you must increase the other two. Since meat and dairy are also high in fat, to lower fat you must increase carbohydrates. 
Long story short, for the last 70 years, starting in the US and spreading around the western world, the "food pyramid" was born. Carbohydrates that we knew were fattening, could not be both bad and good, yet "nutritionist" told the world that carbohydrates were no longer fattening, it is calories that are fattening. Without evidence nor precedent it was decided that Fat was fattening, and ... excess calories. Without any regard to origin or specific food. 
Despite several dissidents who found no link between dietary fat and heart attacks, and others who advanced a new culprit, sugar, the US politicians decided by decree, (and the world followed), that fat was guilty as charged.  
The declaration became the "Dietary goals for the US" the nation and the res of the world would now follow nutritional advice from a politician ... writes Dr Jason Fung. 
  Big brother intruded in the family kitchen and told us to eat 6 or more servings of Bread, Cereals, Pasta and starchy vegetables "that are low in fat and cholesterol" And drink fruit punches and carbonated soft drinks.  
If you think that this is no excuse since no one follows this type of advice, think again. When doctors told people to stop smoking the rate reduced from 33% to 25% in 15 years. When told to control blood pressure there was a 40% decline. When told to eat more bread, pasta and drink juice, people followed.  
in 20 years, from 76 to 96, fat intake decreased by 10% butter consumption decreased by 38%, meat down 13%, egg down by 18% ... and grains and sugar up and up. 
Success!
We surely are eating less fat and protein. But heart disease did not decrease and obesity defined as bmi > 30 increased, not surprisingly starting in 1977.  
Who is to blame? 
Stay tuned, all will be revealed  :Smilie:  
All references literal and paraphrased are from "The obesity code" by Dr Jason Fung.

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## toooldforthis

> Insulin causes obesity - that's a good one! Funny how there were almost zero zip nil obese people around in the 50s and 60s when there was a shortage of food, and / or no money in the family budget for hambergers, chips, ice cream and Coke.

   since you are too lazy to research before flippant comment here are a few links that were some of the first from google - which actually correlate with your 2nd comment, but not for the reasons you think.   

> Insulin is an essential hormone that we cannot live without. What happens, however, when it is chronically too high? Our tissues stop responding to it effectively. Thats insulin resistance.  Insulin resistance is a very common condition that often accompanies obesity or a diagnosis of pre-diabetes, type 2 diabetes, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), cardiovascular disease, and other metabolic conditions such as hypertension and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. Have you been told you have insulin resistance? Youre not alone. Studies estimate that up to 45% of the US population and similar numbers in other countries currently have insulin resistance.1

    

> In studies of obese women, more than 70% are insulin resistant and among those with type 2 diabetes, the number rises to over 80%.2

  https://www.dietdoctor.com/health/insulin-resistance    

> After a meal, insulin opens glucose receptors on muscle cells, and (in the brain) switches off your appetite. Sugar rushes into the cells for burning, and you also stop feeling hungry. When you are not producing much insulin, though  a couple of hours after your last meal, say  the energy reserves in your liver start to release exactly enough glucose to stop your blood sugar levels from falling too low.

     

> In the food-abundant modern world, continuous eating and little activity can lead to insulin resistance.So, insulins job is to regulate your blood sugar levels after you have eaten food. In a state of health, it pushes the sugar from your food into muscle cells to be burnt as fuel. But if you are insulin resistant then your muscles find it hard to absorb these calories. Instead, they get dumped into your fat cells.

  https://thefast800.com/insulin-resistance/

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## John2b

> since you are too lazy to research before flippant comment here are a few links that were some of the first from google - which actually correlate with your 2nd comment, but not for the reasons you think.

  
Your quoted text supports with my proposition and for the reasons I do think. (I have read widely on obesity and diet for decades.) If I am being flippant it is because no obese person's interests are served by the promulgation of invented causes, anymore than anyone's interests are served by misinformation. Take out an over abundance of calories from food intake, particularly those from junk food and drink, and obesity almost disappears. This has been known for decades, but in our neoliberal age of self determination it's ok to blame some random external factor for not taking responsibility for one's own health. I say this as a former smoker, so yes I did something harmful to my own health for a long time, and yes I do accept responsibility for my negative contribution to my future health.

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## John2b

> When told to eat more bread, pasta and drink juice, people followed
> in 20 years, from 76 to 96, fat intake decreased by 10% butter consumption decreased by 38%, meat down 13%, egg down by 18% ... and grains and sugar up and up.

  Doctors (as in health professionals who have actual dietary expertise) didn't tell the public to _eat more bread, pasta and drink juice._ Since around 20 years ago when I realised dietary recommendations are a con from the food and disease industries, not health experts, I've put back in all the dairy, eggs and fat and more, and cut out processed food and any drink with sugar. The result: I have lost weight, grown back hair, my cholesterol is back to normal ~ low 4's with ideal LDL/HDL ratio, and I no longer have the lifestyle health issues that once needed to be treated with pharmaceuticals.

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## phild01

> grown back hair,

  ...really! :Confused:

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## John2b

> ...really!

  Yep, lost my emerging bald patch to new growth, and my receding forehead actually reversed direction. I have much more, thicker and stronger hair than 20 years ago. Not everything is positive - I'm older and more senile than ever before LOL.

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## Bros

> ...really!

  You need to change the brand of snake oil you are rubbing in.

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## UseByDate

> Yep, lost my emerging bald patch to new growth, and my receding forehead actually reversed direction. I have much more, thicker and stronger hair than 20 years ago. Not everything is positive - I'm older and more senile than ever before LOL.

  LOL.
 Oh. I thought you meant you had grown hair on your back. grown back hair.   :Smilie:

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## toooldforthis

> Your quoted text supports with my proposition and for the reasons I do think. (I have read widely on obesity and diet for decades.) If I am being flippant it is because no obese person's interests are served by the promulgation of invented causes, anymore than anyone's interests are served by misinformation. Take out an over abundance of calories from food intake, particularly those from junk food and drink, and obesity almost disappears. This has been known for decades, but in our neoliberal age of self determination it's ok to blame some random external factor for not taking responsibility for one's own health. I say this as a former smoker, so yes I did something harmful to my own health for a long time, and yes I do accept responsibility for my negative contribution to my future health.

  well, I agree with all of that.
That is not say that the idea of _insulin resistance_ can't be the reason the body behaves the way it does when confronted with all those bad foods.   

> Doctors (as in health professionals who have actual dietary expertise) didn't tell the public to _eat more bread, pasta and drink juice._ Since around 20 years ago when I realised dietary recommendations are a con from the food and disease industries, not health experts, I've put back in all the dairy, eggs and fat and more, and cut out processed food and any drink with sugar. The result: I have lost weight, grown back hair, my cholesterol is back to normal ~ low 4's with ideal LDL/HDL ratio, and I no longer have the lifestyle health issues that once needed to be treated with pharmaceuticals.

  similar to my own experience.
remember when they said eggs were bad for you cause you know, cholesterol!
my hair hasn't grown back but is till pretty good considering I always have had very fine hair and my dad was completely bald.

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## John2b

> That is not say that the idea of _insulin resistance_ can't be the reason the body behaves the way it does when confronted with all those bad foods.

   Sure, I know that each person's own physiology plays a part in how their body reacts to dietary inputs, but the fundamental principle is the same.   

> similar to my own experience.
> remember when they said eggs were bad for you cause you know, cholesterol!
> my hair hasn't grown back but is till pretty good considering I always have had very fine hair and my dad was completely bald.

  ...including the back hair??  :Shock:

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## Marc

So who is to blame for the undeniable obesity epidemic?  Conventional calorie based theories of obesity place the blame squarely on the "toxic" environment that encourages eating and discourage physical activity. So what changed in diet and lifestyle since the seventies that can be blamed? Low fat diet Increased eating opportunities more meals and eating out fast food restaurants and advertising more time spent in the car video games more computers more sugar corn syrup used pervasively in all food manufacture bigger portions  All of the above relate to environment and cultural changes. None refers to genetics.  In order to determine the impact of genetics vs environment, the method is to study adoptive families to remove the genetic factor.  Adoptions have sketchy data, and are protected by confidentiality, but Denmark has kept complete registry of biological and adoptive parents.  A sample of 540 Danish adults adoptees, was studied by Dr Stunkard and compared them to the adoptive parents. No relationship whatsoever was found to adoptive parents or siblings.If environmental factors, diet, culture had anything to do with obesity, the link should be clear. No such link exists. The environment of the adoptive family was largely irrelevant.Comparing to biological parents was on the other hand, revealing. When they had no input in their children raising, the parents and their progenie had a strong relationship.  A similar experiment with twins that grew up apart, provided a similar result. 70% of the variance in obesity is familiar.   A feeble attempt at explaining this was the "Thrifty" gene hypothesis that goes like this ... in Palaeolithic times food was scarce, so when it became available people would eat as much as possible to store fat for times of famine.
Those who burned fat easier were selectively wiped out and those who store fat more effectively survived. However, the above hypothesis does not hold water.   
Survival in a primitive society depends from many factors. A fat prey is slow, ad fat predator is ineffective. Humans have hormonal signals to eat and also to stop when full. We have strong built in protection to avoid overeating. 
If chronic food shortage prevented obesity, then abundance of food would provoke it. Yet Tokelau, a remote tribe in the South Pacific had abundance of food all year around and obesity was unknown … until the western influence.    
The thrifty gene hypothesis does not explain obesity but what does?  

> The root cause of obesity is a complex hormonal imbalance with high blood insulin as the central feature. The hormonal profile of a baby is influenced by the environment in the mother’s body before birth, setting up a tendency for high insulin levels and associated obesity later in life. 
> The explanation of obesity as a caloric imbalance simply cannot account fo this predominantly genetic effect since eating and exercise are vluntary behaviors. obesity as a hormonal imbalance more effectively explains this genetic effect.
> But inherited factors account for only 70% of the tendency to obesity that we aobserve. The other 30% of factors are under our control, but what should we do to make the most of this? Are diet and exercise the answer?

  Stay tuned, all will be revealed  All references literal and paraphrased are from "The obesity code" by Dr Jason Fung.

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## johnc

Geez, very complicated this weight stuff. I think some have genetic dispositions to trend in a certain direction, others have learned traits. I have been fortunate, I am the same weight I was at 18, although that weight has moved around a bit and a few lifestyle choices have had to be made. 
I have never dieted, I have cut plate size, have altered exercise levels, I weigh myself every few weeks and reduce or increase what goes on the plate, when its down I don't mind a good pig out though.

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## John2b

I had at look at Jason Fung's ideas. Basically he's taken a scoop of well established science, trimmed off the incongruous bits, added lashings of logical fallacies and seasoned with complementary anecdotes, then dished it up as another fad diet book LOL.

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## Bros

> I have never dieted, I have cut plate size, have altered exercise levels, I weigh myself every few weeks and reduce or increase what goes on the plate, when its down I don't mind a good pig out though.

   One of the lucky ones.

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## John2b

Metabolism slows with age and so food intake needs to match. Every decade I have eaten obviously less than in my "hollow leg" active teenage years. Now I am at a point were I only have _one_ meal course at any meal, I _never_ have seconds no matter how good the food, I eat nothing between meals, and I drink no fruit juices or sweetened drinks other than home made lemon cordial in summer and home made beer brewed with minimal sugar. I do drink red wine. One of the mistakes that calorie counters make is to include alcohol in calorific intake, however the body does not turn alcohol into sugars. Alcohol is processed into acetic acid and excreted. Beerguts come from the carbohydrates in beer, not the alcohol. 
When I walk through old cemeteries I am astounded by the numbers of people who lived into their 80s, 90s and 100s in the 1800s in regional Australia. My view is that the best chance of avoiding the epidemic of modern industrial food related illnesses is to avoid modern industrial food. A few simple rules are not to eat anything with more than 5 ingredients in it (look at the ingredient labels on foods in the supermarket if you want to be shocked), not to to eat anything with something in it you can't pronounce, not to eat anything your grandparents would not be familiar with, and avoid if at all possible any food grown with synthetic agrochemicals. 
My food bible, if there is such a thing, is Michael Pollan's "The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals" which is miles away from a diet or nutrition book. Rather it is about producing, preparing, eating and enjoying foods the way it has been done for centuries in parallel with human evolution, written by a food writer, not a dietician or medico.  I eat almost zero processed foods from a supermarket but prepare almost everything at home and use whole food ingredients wherever possible.  https://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/...1_pollan.shtml

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## Marc

So, considering we cannot change our genetic heritage ( with the exception of John who managed to change his receding forehead ), what can the average Jo do to lose weight?  The first thing that comes to mind is to reduce food ingestion. Smaller portions must certainly lead to loss of weight. And by elevation, the obese person is at fault since he does not have the willpower to reduce food intake.  The above is a fallacy. Caloric intake and expenditure are not independent but intimately related.   Reduce your calorie intake and you trigger an equivalent calorie expenditure reduction. The balance is zero.   The assumption that we exert total control over calorie intake is false. The body has an intricate hormonal mechanism to control when to eat and how much and when to stop.  The idea that the excess unused caloric intake gets dumped in the body as fat is another fallacy. The growth of fat cells is regulated by a string of hormones, leptines, adiponectine, lipasa and more. Hormones regulate fat growth.   The calorie counters make another basic mistake. A calorie is a unit of energy, but our body is not a furnace. 100 calories of olive oil is not the same as 100 calories of sugar. Both produce a vastly different metabolic and hormonal response.   Under eating, leads to some reduction in weight yet it also triggers an increase in hunger and a slowing of the metabolism. This leads to a yoyo effect very well known to those who try a diet. It is a cruel hoax yet every person who thinks to have the answer will tell you to “eat less and move more”.   So what about exercise?  Physical activity is the key to weight loss … or so they say.  Yet studies comparing energy expenditure in primitive societies who walk 20 miles a day to gather food and modern day office worker show little difference in energy consumption. The reason behind this apparent contradiction is that energy expenditure is not the same as physical activity. The body burns up energy to do much more than just feed the muscles. Total energy expenditure is = Basal metabolic rate + Thermogenetic effect of food +  Nonexercise activity thermogenesis + Excess post exercise oxygen consumption + Exercise.  There is ample evidence that exercise has little or no effect on weight loss. Sedentary people have been trained to run a marathon and the result was zero weight reduction in women and 2.3 Kg in men. A string of other example in Dr Fung’s book. 
The reason behind the failure of exercise in the weight reduction quest is compensation. Exercise more and … eat more. Exercise more and … reduce all other non exercise activities.  Result, failure in the weight loss department.  
Despite the fact that we are in a real obesity epidemic, the medical advise is mostly ineffective and at time counterproductive. The countless allopathic "solutions", mainly money making poison pills all failed abysmally.
 Of course today's "popular wisdom" that repeats the failures of yesterday does not help. Reducing food intake and increasing activity is old hat, does not work, blames the patient for the failure and to make things worst, masks the real reason for the failure, a blatant ignorance of the real cause of obesity.  
Talking about weight is not PC, but talking about halitosis, tinea, or gastro is ok? Why? 
Simple we know how to treat the above, but we mostly ignore how to treat obesity, so it is easier to blame the patient.  
More to come.
Most content of this post is paraphrased from the book "The obesity Code" By Dr Jason Fung.

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## r3nov8or

Waiting, Marc, waiting...  :Smilie:

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## r3nov8or

> As some may recall, I started a keto diet in mid-November'19. In the 19th week, late March, I'd lost 30kg - reached my goal. The past two months have been satifyingly slower in terms of loss, with a total of just 1.6kg down. I've started introducing a few good carbs and will soon start resistance exercise. I'm committed to always being 'healthy low-carb' now. I've learnt so much. I'm convinced, after so many failed attempts, that my body simply does not know what to do with excess carbs, so I'm not playing that game any more. It will be delicate balance, but I now have a known failsafe if I somehow lose control. I'm really enjoying cooking healthy meals, which have never been so colourful nor tasty in living memory - sometimes I cook my own side to the family's protein, sometimes I do my own thing, sometimes I'll just sit with them and chat because I don't need a 3rd meal everyday. "Hunger" is something I no longer experience. Most common high-carb foods are simply unhealthy and unnecessary vehicles for tastier, more nutritious foods. There is much more about this change to "me" that I could say, but plenty of others have already... Next update in November.

  Just remembered I said I'd be back in November.... Things are still going well and I've trickled off another 2kgs over the past months (so down almost 34 kgs). I am pretty much the weight I was in my twenties, and well within my BMI now. Still totally happy with Very Low Carb, enjoying every meal and snack. I haven't started that resistance training I mentioned but having started preparing the home for external painting today I reckon the ladder work will suffice for now.

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## Marc

> Waiting, Marc, waiting...

  Yes, I know ... lost motivation when I realised that sharing good information needs to be defended and justified ... because you know ... it may offend someone. No worries, don't mind me, fat is good, jolly and all that. After all there is always titanium knee replacement.  :Smilie:  
Good on you R3no ... I am still having one meal a day. Gym 2-3 times a week and down to 75/6 kg Cholesterol under 5 sugar 4 and blood pressure 120/80 Not bad for an old fart  :Rofl5:

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## John2b

> ... lost motivation when I realised that sharing good information needs to be defended and justified ...

  We all have our crosses to bear. Be grateful that those who only dream at night allow things to escape for day dreamers to be cognisant of. I enjoy all of your posts - whether we diverge in view or not, I always learn something.

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## Bros

> Still totally happy with Very Low Carb, enjoying every meal and snack.

  Do you live alone?
If not do you and your partner have different meals?

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## Marc

> ... Be grateful that those who only dream at night allow things to escape for day dreamers to be cognisant of. ... .

  Ha ha, not the intended meaning of 'escape'.   “A daydream is a meal at which images are eaten. Some of us are gourmets, some gourmands, and a good many take their images precooked out of a can and swallow them down whole, absent-mindedly and with little relish.” ― *W.H. Auden*

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## toooldforthis

> ... I am still having one meal a day. Gym 2-3 times a week and down to 75/6 kg Cholesterol under 5 sugar 4 and blood pressure 120/80 Not bad for an old fart

  Interested to know how often you are fasting these days?  
and do you know the overall nutrient ratios in your daily meal? like Calories/Carbs/Fat/Protein/Sodium/Sugar?   :2thumbsup:

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## Marc

i don't portray myself as an example. I arrived to the current habits by trial and error of what works for me ... and most likely does not work for others.
Started by skipping lunch when i saw the weight going up and up and that gave me an edge and the realisation that I don't struggle with no food. 
For decades I had no interest in breakfast and had it only to follow a social habit. The next step was a natural one. Skip the "most important meal of the day"  :Annoyed:  
After reading recent publications that reinforced the concept of what is now known as intermittent fasting, I tried to sum it all up into one meal a day and a 24 hr fasting once a week. Recently had to change dinner for late lunch as the one meal since cannot sleep properly with a full stomach, a common complaint of 60 +  
I am not a calorie counter nor am I interested in punctilious diseccion of what I eat. Basically eating once a day I eat whatever I like. I do tend to have less red meat then I used to and I don't mind having vegan when my daughters visit, but not for any religious/ conviction/ save the cows credo. Full cream milk and cheese, eggs, olive oil, Gorgonzola cheese, Sourdough bread, and stay away from sugar and soft drinks ... i never liked anyway. Good quality red wine and beer when in company. Veggies of all sorts, and some fruit for sure. Pasta too of course ... al dente  :Smilie:  
I am an avid consumer of supplements. Multivitamins and minerals, Coenzyme Q10, Bergamet and Kyolic garlic.
Lately discovered, two new additions to what is available to keep away from illness as long as possible. A complex of Vitamin C, B12 and Nitric Oxide blend from vegetable roots, and another complex of 8 essential amino acids that help to restore and repair muscle and bones, and that the body can not make on it's own. 
That is what I do now, and I may change it or not according to results. Not following anyone in particular, especially not my cardiologist who tells me that vitamins make expensive urine ... :Confused:

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## r3nov8or

> Do you live alone?
> If not do you and your partner have different meals?

  Far from alone, there are six of us at home. 
We all share the same protein (those who turn up, anyway), but I generally replace the root veggies, pasta, rice etc with broccoli, cauliflower, capsicum, tomato, egg, onion, (many others) all cooked quickly different ways, or just a simple leafy salad.  
E.g. We usually have spaghetti bolognese once a week - instead of the pasta I cook broccoli and cauliflower in butter and garlic (takes about 3 minutes) and pour the bolognese over it, add lots of parmesan. Mine tastes better  :Smilie:  
And brekky and lunch have always been a "go your own way" affair, rarely shared but sometimes sit together for it

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## toooldforthis

> i don't portray myself as an example. I arrived to the current habits by trial and error of what works for me ...[snip] ... 
> I am not a calorie counter nor am I interested in punctilious diseccion of what I eat. Basically eating once a day I eat whatever I like. I do tend to have less red meat then I used to and I don't mind having vegan when my daughters visit, but not for any religious/ conviction/ save the cows credo. Full cream milk and cheese, eggs, olive oil, Gorgonzola cheese, Sourdough bread, and stay away from sugar and soft drinks ... i never liked anyway. Good quality red wine and beer when in company. Veggies of all sorts, and some fruit for sure. Pasta too of course ... al dente  
> ... [snip] ...

  thanks.
I could have framed the question better - I was trying not to use labels, eg low-fat. 
I remember now you said one fast day a week.
I have only done it once or twice a year. Originally started out (40 years ago) as an annual routine of a week duration - fast 1st day (only water), 2nd day add juices, 3rd day add fruit, 4th day add veges ... 
Can't even remember now where the idea came from - probably some sort of detox.
In more recent times my routine is more around eating when I want/need to. Usually 2 meals a day, occasionally one. This seems to suit me. I still do a lot of exercise (comparatively speaking) so regular intake seems to suit me better. 
Like you I find my needs and reaction to food has changed as I get older.
I used to have an evening meal around 830, the other meal was at lunchtime. This was when working full time (and being self employed so some long days). I used to usually exercise in the morning, with another exercise session after work, so by the time that was all over 830pm was a good time to eat - felt quite European  :Smilie:  
Now I eat early evening, like 530/6pm, as I find eating late affects my sleep patterns. Even some snacks in the evening such as cheese can play havoc with sleep these day. And alcohol too. Think alcohol will end going the way of tobacco as a health issue altho culturally it is hard to imagine that in the near future.  i periodically give up alcohol for periods, usually 3 - 6 months, sometimes a year. The amount of blow back one can sometimes get from Aussies for being a non drinker can be pretty amazing.

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## Marc

Yes, 5 to 6 pm is the limit for me if I want to have a good night sleep. I usually drink half a glass of red with the meal, but not always. Can't really call it alcohol consumption, and beer is limited to one when in company or two if a few hours apart. Not for any sort of virtue, never was a drinker.  
If you have your last meal of the day at say 5 pm, and you skip breakfast, you will have a 19 hour fasting period if your lunch is at 12. If you can skip lunch once a week, you have a 24 hr fasting once a week. Simple really. But don't do what I say, do what works for you. The body needs time off food to fix all the little things that go wrong from time to time. If all it does is process food all day long, maintenance ends up in the background and things start going pear shaped. 
What I learned that allowed me to do this, many years ago, was the realisation that constantly feeding is completely unnecessary. I don't starve if I skip a meal or two and feel much better. Drinking water when hungry also led me to understand that we sometimes confuse thirst for hunger. 
Our body is not built to have 4 meals a day, rather to have 4 meals a week. 
But that is me, everyone is different ... or believes to be different.  :Smilie:

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## Bros

> We all share the same protein (those who turn up, anyway), but I generally replace the root veggies, pasta, rice etc with broccoli, cauliflower, capsicum, tomato, egg, onion, (many others) all cooked quickly different ways, or just a simple leafy salad.

  I'm surprised you replace all the root veges as carrots have no carbs not like potatoes. You talk about protein what food do you use for protein as veges gives you nothing but bulk?   

> E.g. We usually have spaghetti bolognese once a week - instead of the pasta I cook broccoli and cauliflower in butter and garlic (takes about 3 minutes) and pour the bolognese over it, add lots of parmesan. Mine tastes better

  I agree and do similar via a cottage pie with cauliflower as the topping. 
My wife is a Type 2 insulin dependent diabetic and as I do most of the cooking I aim for recipes that have a max of 20g carb per serve. She used to be on just tablets but the side effects of the tablets is a reduction in the kidney efficiency so she is now only on insulin. 
Some years ago a friend on mine developed late onset Type 1 diabetes and he said to me you will now be a packet reader well he was right as I read packets when we buy something new for food origin, carbs, and sodium as a lot of low carb food has a high level of sodium which I hate. 
I also use an app called "Calorie Counter" which has all the foods with all the nutrient's listed. 
I can now pretty well guess the carb level of recipes by the ingredients where the recipes done list them.

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## Marc

"Veggies give you nothing but bulk" ... come on Bros, surely you don't believe that.

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## Bros

> "Veggies give you nothing but bulk" ... come on Bros, surely you don't believe that.

  Sure do as far as protein is concerned very little except when you go to the chickpeas and lentils then you have the protein but in addition you get a lot of carbs.

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## r3nov8or

Bros, 
I use websites CalorieKing and FatSecret for nutrition info and carrots noted there have 5% and 10% carbs respectively. I'll have some now and then, but not really a fan anyway so not missing them. I should myself with a little beetroot occasionally. 
When saying protein I mean any meat. I'm VLC, not vegetarian, no way! 
When deepest in ketosis I reckon I was down to about 20g carbs per day. Now probably 50g or so. But I never really counted. They call it Lazy Keto  :Smilie:  
I don't mind a little extra sodium as I'm no longer consuming any of the junk which had bucket loads. 
I top up my fibre with psyllium husk, due to lack of grains these days. I also make seed crackers for crunch with dips and cheeses, which do have carbs but have just as much fibre (especially with added psyllium husk) so are basically "zero net carbs'.

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## Bros

> I use websites CalorieKing and FatSecret for nutrition info and carrots noted there have 5% and 10% carbs respectively. I'll have some now and then, but not really a fan anyway so not missing them. I should myself with a little beetroot occasionally. 
> When saying protein I mean any meat. I'm VLC, not vegetarian, no way! 
> When deepest in ketosis I reckon I was down to about 20g carbs per day. Now probably 50g or so. But I never really counted. They call it Lazy Keto

  We would never get down to 20g per day, one of our weakness is spuds, now our spuds is a very small portion as from kids spuds was a stable food on the table from our parents. We are not vegetarians either so I was wondering if you were getting your protein from lentils and eggs. We actually eat a lot less meat nowdays about 120g each once a day our lunch is just salads with some fruit.    

> I top up my fibre with psyllium husk, due to lack of grains these days. I also make seed crackers for crunch with dips and cheeses, which do have carbs but have just as much fibre (especially with added psyllium husk) so are basically "zero net carbs'.

  I didn't know what psyllium was but when I looked it up it is the basic ingredient of Metamucil.

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## r3nov8or

I used to eat potato everyday. On my journey I've discovered that in itself it is a very boring taste. On roasted and fried potatoes and chips it was the cooking fats, oils and salt I was enjoying. I still have all that, except the potatoes!  :Smilie:  
Metamucil, yes, I don't drink the stuff, but buy psyllium husk from Chemist Warehouse. Much cheaper that way. It adds a cereal "mouth feel" to lots of things, including berries and cream for a great breakfast treat.

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