# Forum Home Renovation Structural Renovation  To hebel or double brick?

## 3hatcat

We are beginning a minor renovation on our 1930's double brick - adding a new kitchen/walk in pantry/sitting/study area, we need the space with a teenager in the house. We are trying to keep the budget down so planning on building a modern version of the older sunrooms which dominated the renovation market many years ago, ie, flat roofed and lots of windows. 
Would double hebel be a viable material to use, or is the cost similar to double brick? I believe that if we design to the panel/block sizes that Hebel is made to then we should be able to keep our costs down. Also which is more cost competative, a concrete slab, or more traditional stump and bearer wooden floor? 
For windows and doors are there shops like Sydney Woodworkers in Melbourne that sell/manufacture a good product at a non Stegbar price? 
I am sure there will be more questions and answers for the start, but all assistance appreciated from the wise ones. 
cheers

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## seriph1

Hi and welcome to the forum  -  Depending on your design, you might want to consider RAPIDWALL  -  I saw a building made using it today and was blown away by it. Half the cost of BV construction, one tenth the carbon footprint in manufacture, it is made using fibreglass reinforced gypsum. The hardest thing when using it is site access as you need a crane to put it in .... .this sounds like a nightmare but as all walls will be done in a morning the cost of a crane ends up fairly minimal. Panel size is (maximum) 3 metres high X 12 Metres long. If you provide precise door sizes and positions on drawings, they will be "cut in" prior to deliver so you finish off the cuts with a saw on site. 
Oh yeah  -  the reason i know about it is because I am the President of the region's Chamber of Commerce and it is made in Kilmore, Victoria. 
Windows and doors can be found in the Trading Post or eBay very easily and depending on a range of factors  -  cheaply. My entire focus is on period style construction and I reckon you can't go past these two for bargains, provided you do adequate research.

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## seriph1

By the way  -  the house I saw today that had all its walls up, with the RAPIDWALL ceilings going in, was just a concrete slab on Friday. Their record was to erect every wall in a 550 square metre building in a day.

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## myla

hi, 
hebel will only come to the front if you laying it yourself. 
a 200mm solid block will cost $60-70sqm for product only, if you adding labor costs onto that then you will get a better "product/wall" from double brick 
also Hebel has to be rendered, 
both require full masonry designed footings 
piers from bricks are far more structural and sturdy  
thanks

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## pawnhead

> RAPIDWALL

  I'd almost be prepared to bet my left nut that it's more expensive than brickwork. Of course their website says 'low cost' but these sort of guys never tell you how much it actually is. It would more than likely be the top question on any FAQ, but I'd bet they still wouldn't publish the answer. There's no room on their website for trivial matters like  the actual cost, when you have to stuff all your pages with "great product, revolutionary, low cost, etc". It's usually the thing that's of critical importance to most people, but you'd have to get on the blower with them to find out. A salesman's spiel will get nowhere with me, and I won't even bother enquiring, but if they really were cheap, and they put their prices on their website, then I might enquire further. Of course they want you to jump through hoops, and listen to some sales spiel before they give it to you, so you can thank them for wasting both of your time, and hang up on them (of course then they couldn't sucker in, and con all the dunces who'd be scared off if they had the guts to tell you how much it costs up front).
/rant 
I like Barrenjoey timbers. They may not be the cheapest, but they have all of their timber prices on-line, and I've linked to them several times on these forums when people are after prices (most people are actually interested in how much a product costs). I have no connection to them, but I might have got them some business this way. It's handy for working out quotes, and they are the only timber joint I've found in Sydney that publish their prices on-line. If anyone knows of any more, I'd be interested.

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## 3hatcat

thanks for the quick responses so far. A few things to look into, ie the rapidwall. With regards to the joinery for the windows and doors, we are in Chilly Melbourne town, so local would be best. 
cheers 
marty

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## seriph1

I was not going to respond to this, but what the hell  -   
First of all, my knowledge is a result of working with bushfire victims and conducting exhaustive researching on their behalf to seek out products that will help them to rebuild affordably while doing everything possible to remain safe as far as is possible. 
This firm is not a retail supplier of product, nor is it any kind of deceptive organisation  ... rather, the owners are scientists with more than 40 years of deep research experience who have as their primary drivers, the desire to reduce waste in the world while providing affordable building solutions ... not to individuals at retail level but to whole countries.  
RAPIDWALL specialises in building entire manufacturing plants to convert mining and fertilizer industrial waste into affordable walling systems mainly in third world countries at this stage, because that's where the need (and poor waste management practices) is greatest. 
They have just won a global award for innovation, quality and ethical production methods.    
Finally, this firm has a small plant in Kilmore to showcase their product to visiting international delegations  -  they are GIVING an entire home to someone who lost theirs through the fires. They have plants commissioned in India, China and Oman that are currently producing around 3000 affordable homes a month.  
The individuals involved have personally invested everything they have to make sure the product is superb. It has been tested to the highest standards and has passed every test, including having an oxy acetylene cutting torch applied to the wall for 10 minutes, without failure..... so that's what they're doing to make a difference and you know what comes out of the owners mouth more than any other statement? "There is just so much that needs to be done, I wish we had more time"...... perhaps we can all take a moment to reflect on what we are doing to make the world just a little better.

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## myla

hi, 
and dont forget:  http://www.ecobricks.com.au/ 
on the green tip 
thanks

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## pawnhead

seriph
I'm sorry if I seemed rude, or if I've personally offended you because that wasn't my intention.
It wasn't my intention to slur the company either, and I'm not singling them out. I must admit that I didn't look very far through their website, but I'm sure that they deserve the accolades that you've given them.
It's just a pet hate of mine that everyone with a new product has pages of information on how good it is, when they could get down to the nuts and bolts in under a page, and give you probably the most important thing that you're interested in which is the price. 
I'm not going to overlook the features and advantages if they give them to me in clear simple point form, and expand on it in following pages if I'm more interested in detail.
I'm sure there'd still be room for a price at the bottom of the page if they're trying to sell it here. If they're not, then it's of no use to 3hatcat. 
Wouldn't it be nice to know how much it costs, and wouldn't it be simple for them to just tell you? 
Everyone does it, and just like junk mail, it's a pet hate of mine and I just had a bit of a brain explosion, so I apologise again. 
I still reckon that it would be dearer than brickwork, but that's just a gut feeling. It's certainly an important issue, that's often difficult to find out, and I find that annoying.

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## seriph1

it is about $80 per square metre raw cost plus delivery. 
Brick veneer construction is $163 per square metre on average 
RAPIDWALL is craned in place and its "A" side (internal) is a perfect paintable surface requiring no stopping up except in corners, unless damaged on install. The "B" side can be painted but is usually skim-coat rendered. 
So: All internal and external walls can be in place even on a very large home in a couple of days.  
No plasterer required, except for corners and repairs 
No brick layer, unless brick piers or brick footings are required 
No stud wall carpentry and possibly no trusses  -  the home referred to above has RAPIDWALL ceilings as well, providing additional fire protection. This home is still having a truss roof, only because the engineering comps are taking too long, but it is envisaged that the product will eventually be able to be used as a roof structure. 
Millimeter precise cut-ins for windows and doors provided the manufacturers computer talks to RAPIDWALL's computer when the material is being cut. 
Product is structural, with a 12 storey building made using it in Sydney (1999), a swimming pool (2001) and solid fence (1995) in Adelaide..... etc. 
No noggins so services can be fed from the top or bottom 
It weighs a fraction of tilt construction concrete  -  i.e. 44 Kgs per square metre (19mm MDF weighs 22) 
Holds around 7.7% water, compared to brick 17-28% depending on type. Important when considering fire attack as the bricks exploded. 
BTW, this is all off the top of my head so I may be out a little on the numbers. 
These factors mean huge savings, especially when considering how many man-hours are saved. For what it's worth, it took me a full year to get one builder to even go and see the factory..... he lost sleep over it because he couldn't work out what was wrong with it ... then the owner came to the plant and took him right through its limitations, which only made him more agitated. He is now there Operations Manager. BTW the guy lives in KILMORE and it still took a year. 
And totally agree, don't forget about the other products out there: 
TIMBERCRETE - Australian invention currently made in Victoria and looking to come to Kilmore  -  attractive mudbrick-like product with fire ratings off the scale 
BENEX Blocks - Australian invention currently made in Bathurst and looking to come ot Kilmore 
MAG Board - Magnesium Oxide board, currently under development in Kilmore to assess suitability as low-cost fire rated alternative to weatherboard, hardiplank, slate, tin, cement and terracotta tile.

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## 3hatcat

Looks like I might have opened up a new can-o-worms here 
With regards to the Rapidwall, would it have to be 'filled' to meet the new R ratings here, more insullation is better given that it get chilly here in Glen Iris (not as cold as Kilmore though). So once filled with concrete how would the cost compare?  
Also I note that the maximun height is 3metre, how would we work it with our existing 3.01metre ceilings? Or would it be 'mounted' on a lower plinth wall. 
Too much to learn and so little tme.....
cheers 
Marty

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## sundancewfs

If the extension exceeds 20% of the volume of the existing building you will need to bring the whole house up to 5 star rating...... Something to be aware of.

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## buzza1

I'm with you pawnhead, its a pet hate of mine, I cant understand why companies dont like putting prices on the web !!!!   
I thought about using Rapidwall for an upcomming renovation, seems like a good product,  however the website actually put me off, all bells, whistles, roses about the product yet no ballpark price to base a decision on.  
Surely the company could put a price on their website for 12mx3m panel with no openings delivered and erected to Melbourne, cant be that much variation in price.  
My hunch is that its more expensive than brick overall and thats why price is not shown, espescially for residential projects. 
Stick with Brick !!!!

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## seriph1

Marty  -  your building designer would be able to advise how to achieve additional heights. No concrete other than what's used to tie it into a slab  -  that is: concrete slab, piece of reinforcing rod, either Chem-set into slab or already in when slab is poured, then one bucket of concrete to tie it in  -  in this configuration the product was tested in China to (from memory) 5.7 on the Richter scale, without failure. 
The product is Gypsum based so being a mineral, does not have super-high natural insulting properties, therefore to achieve a higher than (I think) 1.7 rating, it needs to be filled with insulation. Again, no noggins and a smooth internal surface therefore easy to do. The key difference is that short of where it's penetrated by a trade, this product is a perfect seal. 
Buzza  -  I just went to: 
HEBEL
C&M-ADBRI MASONRY
AUSTRAL BRICKS
DANIEL ROBERTSON BRICKS
BLUESCOPE STEEL - COLORBOND
OTTER NAILS
BRADFORD INSULATION
GYPROCK
PICTON HOPKINS - PLASTER SUPPLIER
WILSON AND BRADLEY - LARGE TRADE SUPPLIER TO CABINET MAKING INDUSTRY 
And given that I only spent around a minute with each, could find NO pricing information.... rather, what I found were sites that illustrated the benefits of the products .... surprise surprise. A single phone call to RAPIDWALL and you will be told the price and the limitations of the products .... by any staff member that is regularly in contact with the public. I have no idea whether I would achieve that same information from the other firms, but in my experience I get referred to resellers who ask me a series of questions (am I trade, homeowner, professional, specifier) prior to giving any pricing info out 
As a mate of mine says "Some people will still ask for a discount, even if the product is free" 
Marty  -  best of luck with the project mate .... either way it will be a real challenge, but by asking questions and doing effective research you'll get there! And for what it's worth, I encourage you to remain a skeptic  -  I am  -  just avoid becoming a cynic. The difference is huge.

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## pawnhead

From your previous post it does look like a very worthwhile product, and I'm surprised that I've never heard of it since it's been around since 1999. If you'd mentioned a cost comparison in your original post, then I probably wouldn't have had a brain explosion. 
Again, I'll stress that I wasn't singling them out.
It's a pet hate of mine.  

> Buzza  -  I just went to: 
> HEBEL
> C&M-ADBRI MASONRY
> AUSTRAL BRICKS
> DANIEL ROBERTSON BRICKS
> BLUESCOPE STEEL - COLORBOND
> OTTER NAILS
> BRADFORD INSULATION
> GYPROCK
> ...

  And it would be so much easier not to have to make a dozen phone calls, and get the run around from a dozen receptionists (and possibly put on hold, whilst you're on your sat phone from the Simpson Desert) and salesmen to find out the cost of all the products that you've listed.
They all have websites (I'm assuming), and if the prices were on the front page, I'd have them all as fast as I could click my mouse. And it would cost me nothing.
They know the recommended retail price of their product, and it would save everybody a LOT of time if they simply published it.   
It might have got me interested in RAPIDWALL much sooner if they truly are competitive.

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## 3hatcat

the more I read about the rapidwall, the more it becomes interesting!
A phone call might be in order methinks, the thought of setting walls and ceiling in a day is attractive. 
marty

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## pawnhead

Well I did just ring them, but not because of anything on their website. Only because the price seriph quoted is attractive and worth a recommendation if it checked out. 
The numbers on their website are all international dial, so I had to look them up in Yellow pages. 
The receptionist gave me some numbers for "Igor" in Sydney, and his landline was disconnected so I left a message on his mobile and rang the receptionist again. She gave me a number for a guy in Melbourne and I left a message. Half an hour later Igor rang back and told me it's not worthwhile for an extension, it has to be trucked from Brisbane, and for a house it works out cheaper than double brick, but more expensive than brick veneer. He told me it cost $65 m2 raw, and about $160m2 installed with concrete fill. He said that it really shines with multi unit construction where the savings are substabtial, so it looks like a good product. 
Then the guy from Melbourne called and said Igor doesn't know what he's talking about, and it's cheaper than BV for a house, but probably not cheaper for an extension. "Send me your plans and I will price them". Handy to know, but it took me 5 minutes on the phone, and half an hours wait to find out what they could have written on their website. I'd have already had the information (which seems to be conflicting), and we would have all saved the time. 
But I'll certainly keep them in mind, because they're Australian, and it looks like a good competitive product that I may just use on a holiday house up on the Myall lakes. 
Then (since I've got time on my hands) as an exercise to see how long it would take, I opened up everyone on seriph's list in a separate tab in google. That took about thirty seconds, and about another thirty to open their websites. They were all the top listed site, except  Wilson & Braldey. They were listed in a directory which was at the top, and the receptionist put me on hold while a tape played spieling about how awesome they were. After about a minute, I got a price of $35.70 on a 450mm drawer insert.
A few minutes later I had a price of $43.50 on a corbel from Picton Hopkins.
It took about another three minutes (after an automated receptionist, then a real life person who diverted me to Pyrmont) to find out that a 'tempo' cornice from Gyprock costs $19.75 for a 4,8m length.
About three minutes later, after listening to elevator muzac on hold, I had a price of $520 for a mill finish 'Maestro' high performance power ventilator from Bradford.
Otter were hopeless. They couldn't/wouldn't give me an RRP and they asked for a postcode. They referred me to Balgowlah Hardware, and I said 'I don't want a corner store with rip-off prices. Bunnings or H&G please". I got the typical run around from H&G and ended up back at the switchboard, but eventually I got my price for a special order of the particular nail that I was interested in.
It took me another few minutes to find out that 'Thermatech®' isn't actually a separate product, but a new coating process for all colourbond steel which costs $13.80 m2.
Daniel Robertson's number doesn't work, so he'd lose a sale if I were genuinely interested in buying his pavers.
Less than a minute on hold at Austral gave me a price of $800 per thousand for 'Old Colonial Red" bricks.
Adbi Masonry are getting back to me with a price on 'enviropave'. He was very busy, but that was three hours ago so he may not call back at all.
After ringing Hebel, the receptionist gave me a number where there was no answer. After calling her again I got another number and I found out that a 600mm x 3000mm Powerwall panel costs  $57.85 + gst. 
And I sat back down at my computer 38 minutes later (not including the time I spent with Rapidwall). 
So either me or my client would be paying $38 for the information + calls. Divided by the eight results I got, and it costs on average $4.75 in lost productivity for a price enquiry for me, and maybe the same for whoever is on the other end of the line. Since I already had all their websites open within a minute, I could have had the information without picking up my phone if they'd simply publish what they are prepared to tell me anyway. 
The effort I've gone to is an illustration of how much of a pet hate of mine it is, but I've got time, and I never exceed my inclusive call cap so the calls cost me nothing. 
But Rapidwall looks like a good product, so thanks for the heads up seriph.
And on June 16th 2009, it costs $65 m2 raw, in the factory, so if you do a search for 'Rapidwall' now, there's a chance that you may find this post, and get the actual information that you're probably most interested in, because you won't find it on their website.  :Wink:

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## ivan_351

> I was not going to respond to this, but what the hell -  
> First of all, my knowledge is a result of working with bushfire victims and conducting exhaustive researching on their behalf to seek out products that will help them to rebuild affordably while doing everything possible to remain safe as far as is possible. 
> This firm is not a retail supplier of product, nor is it any kind of deceptive organisation ... rather, the owners are scientists with more than 40 years of deep research experience who have as their primary drivers, the desire to reduce waste in the world while providing affordable building solutions ... not to individuals at retail level but to whole countries.  
> RAPIDWALL specialises in building entire manufacturing plants to convert mining and fertilizer industrial waste into affordable walling systems mainly in third world countries at this stage, because that's where the need (and poor waste management practices) is greatest. 
> They have just won a global award for innovation, quality and ethical production methods.   
> Finally, this firm has a small plant in Kilmore to showcase their product to visiting international delegations - they are GIVING an entire home to someone who lost theirs through the fires. They have plants commissioned in India, China and Oman that are currently producing around 3000 affordable homes a month.  
> The individuals involved have personally invested everything they have to make sure the product is superb. It has been tested to the highest standards and has passed every test, including having an oxy acetylene cutting torch applied to the wall for 10 minutes, without failure..... so that's what they're doing to make a difference and you know what comes out of the owners mouth more than any other statement? "There is just so much that needs to be done, I wish we had more time"...... perhaps we can all take a moment to reflect on what we are doing to make the world just a little better.

  Hi seriph1.... How much does RAPIDWALL per metre cost $$.$$ on its own ? how much does RAPIDWALL cost $$.$$ per metre fully installed ? Without any hidden costs??? 
very nice http://www.rapidwall.com.au/public/c...ult.asp?xcid=2 
Woooooooooooooooooooooo , " cheaper than double brick, but more expensive than brick veneer. He told me it cost $65 m2 raw, and about $160m2 installed with concrete fill. " not cheap !!!! 
cheers

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## pawnhead

> Hi seriph1.... How much does RAPIDWALL per metre cost $$.$$ on its own ? how much does RAPIDWALL cost $$.$$ per metre fully installed ? Without any hidden costs??? 
> very nice http://www.rapidwall.com.au/public/c...ult.asp?xcid=2 
> Woooooooooooooooooooooo , " cheaper than double brick, but more expensive than brick veneer. He told me it cost $65 m2 raw, and about $160m2 installed with concrete fill. " not cheap !!!! 
> cheers

  Igor told me that doesn't have to be concrete filled. It's structural without it, but not if you're going up multiple stories. I don't know if it has to be filled if you're only going two stories. I forgot to ask.
He told me it wouldn't be worthwhile if you're doing an extension with only a half dozen walls.
If you get a house load on a full semi trailer, then it's competitive. Especially if you're not trucking it far from their factory. Apparently they have one in Brisbane as well as Victoria, so it would be cheaper if you lived there, or if you were building a block of town houses for example.
The guy from Melbourne told me it was cheaper than BV, so there's some disagreement there.
It seems to have stood the test of time since it's been around since 1999.
It's all made in Australia, so you can feel good about handing over your money, and taking pride in your own country. A big plus I reckon, and I wouldn't mind paying a little extra for that.  
I'm certainly interested in getting a price for my holiday house up north if I ever get around to drawing up some plans. It might be the best product for me, and I wouldn't discourage anyone from enquiring what it would cost them in their particular situation.

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