# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

## zeroseven

Hello 
First post here.  Just bought a house in Sydney.  I need to do some electrical work and plumbing.   
I've been reading various threads and as I understand it I can do no electical work myself (I'm from the UK originally and have been renting here for 4 years so have had no need to look into this kind of thing before).  I'm not even allowed to change a single socket switch to a double socket or change a light fitting, is that correct? 
But I am allowed to have an electrical power point in the bathroom near the sink and a normal lightswitch  :Biggrin:   
What about plumbing?  Am I allowed to change the toilet, shower, bath and kitchen sink?  
Cheers

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## apricotripper

Well, uno, you can do what ever you like ... not as if you'll ever really get in trouble with the law.....its just a matter of whether or not you'll do it right and not kill yourself.  :Biggrin:   
I do almost all myself, because tradesmen cost a fortune, will rip you off on occation (because they can....' who else is gonna fix it for you' ), and because most things I feel all you need is common sense.   but , uno, thats all probably considered bad advice...yeh, so   Do yourself a favour !......be smart !.... don't be an idiot :No:  .....call the professionals !

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## mick101

> Hello 
> But I am allowed to have an electrical power point in the bathroom near the sink and a normal lightswitch   
> Cheers

  Section 7.1.2.2 other fixed water containers (b) (i) (A) (B) Zone 1 (i) (A) (B) for water containers with a capacity not exceeding 45lt. This is relevent after observing 1.7.3.5 & 1.7.3.6 
Mate get a sparkie in. There is a bit more to it than people think.

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## Honorary Bloke

I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch.  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Wink:

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## mick101

> I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch.

  Meatasaurous for me. You got some home brew ?

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## DavidG

Meatasaurous  for me too.
Just Coke zero to drink though. I am on a diet. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Studley 2436

In his seminal work DIY for Knuckleheads Scott Cam put it out very clearly, "Electrical is not for Knuckleheads" 
Good Point I reckon, imagine if you do yourself and it causes a fire, would insurance payout on it? 
BUT there is lots of stuff you can do that will save money when the Sparky gets there. Wires have to be threaded through for instance. You can do that. Sockets light switches have to be fixed to the wall after they are wired up. You can do that. Stretching those wires out and getting them into the right place can take a lot so you have the chance to save some dough there. 
Plumbing I would feel pretty OK with but I am a fitter and turner (once upon a time anyway) so I can braze and muddle my way through that. Mind you I have burnt holes in lots of copper to learn how to do it. You might be making a headache for yourself. 
Studley

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## chrisp

> Scott Cam put it out very clearly, "Electrical is not for Knuckleheads"

  But what if you're not a knucklehead :Rolleyes:

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## zeroseven

Thanks for the replies.  I changed sockets and light switches in the UK, there really is nothing to it and nothing to go wrong, in my opinion. 
However due to the possibility of an insurance claim not being paid out, I'd rather get someone in because I really don't see the point in trying to save a few hundred $.   
However it's so extreme to allow you to do nothing.  One of our light switches is cracked, not very safe, but I can't change it.   
Any ideas how much would an electrician charge per hour in Sydney?  I need some ceiling fans taken down, some light switches and some single sockets changed to double sockets. 
And I'm allowed a socket next to a sink so long as it only contains a small amount of water   :Confused:    So, legally, small amounts of water and electricity get on ok.  That's good to know.   :Wink:   
Plumbing - Are there any rules that say I'm not allowed to plumb in my own bathroom?

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## Studley 2436

I think the law is about being paid to do it. You have to be licensed etc to do it professionally. If you are not look out. Doing it for yourself well why not. 
As far as changing sockets well if you know how why not. 
Studley

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## NCArcher

Sorry Studley but it has nothing to do with being paid or doing it professionally. You are not allowed to carry out work on fixed wiring or equipment if you are not licensed.

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## Studley 2436

There you go 
Studley

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## Gra

> I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch.

  
Got some beer here, there you go boys, anyone got a beanbag this could get fun :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## silentC

> Plumbing - Are there any rules that say I'm not allowed to plumb in my own bathroom?

  Yes  

> there really is nothing to it and nothing to go wrong

  I agree that changing sockets and switches is not complicated. Make sure that the wires go back where they came from and Bob's your uncle. 
The question is, how do you know that what was there in the first place was done right? 
The problem here, and this has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum, is that regardless of how simple it might seem, it's against the law to do it. So, you can follow the advice of others here and go for it if you want, just be aware that what you are doing is illegal and if someone dobs you in, you will cop a fine and have to pay a sparky to certify/fix what you have done.

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## zeroseven

SilentC - I know what you're saying and I agree.  I'm not going to do the electrics myself, that's why I posted in the first place to check exactly what I can do - Nothing. 
And your 'Yes' reply to my plumbing question.  So I'm not allowed to fit a new bathroom suite?  Or a kitchen sink?  A plumber has to do it  :Confused:    Is that what you're saying?  Even if I use the existing connections?

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## juan

Well this one is definately going to draw a lot of replies. 
As an electrician I would naturally advise do any thing that does not involve connecting wires. OK to change the light bulbs. 
Plumbing well that is of interest to me too.  I rang the Office of the Technical Regulator on four occassions to clarify what I could and could not do as I like to play by the rules. I got replies like.. "not sure" "I will have to ask someone else" "Do u mind holding they should be back soon" "Could u ring back later" "U can not do anything I think"  "U can connect cold water only"  "U can connect cold water if it is less than 25mm pipe and not connected to hot water" "I will get someone to ring u back"   That was 3 weeks ago and I am still waiting for them to ring back. 
I paid a plumber to install a new sewer, gas main and water main and am still fighting for a Certificate of Compliance 2 weeks later despite asking for it on 2 occassions.  Interestingly this was a large job with 50m of trenches and located quite near their office but they did not attend despite an inspection being booked by the plumber.  Mind you it was a Friday arvo. 
Good luck and if you find out anything on plumbing let me know because the Office of the Technical Regulator has not got a smick.

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## silentC

> And your 'Yes' reply to my plumbing question. So I'm not allowed to fit a new bathroom suite? Or a kitchen sink? A plumber has to do it  Is that what you're saying? Even if I use the existing connections?

  It doesn't seem to be as clear cut for plumbing as it is for electrical. I know that  plumbing is also a protected trade, in as much as you can't do it in a commercial situation without a license. I'm not sure exactly what you can and can't do in your own home though, although I'm pretty certain that you would not be allowed to connect anything to the sewer, gas or water mains without a ticket.  
I've heard people say you're not allowed to change a tap washer. That to me would be a bit over the top but, as I say I'm not sure. I had a brief look for the legislation but couldn't find anything relating to householders that would be similar to the Electricity Act that we have in NSW.

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## DavidG

Pass me another slice of pizza please.....

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## zeroseven

Sounds like I might need to make a few phones calls then to find out.  Had the plumber around yesterday to fit a new pressure release valve on our hot water tank.  Just been outside to check it and it's dripping where he connected it to the tank. 
So I pay $200 for the professional to come round to fix it in 10 minutes and he can't even get that right.  And soon I'll have to open my house up to other professionals, I just can't wait.

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## chrisp

> it's dripping where he connected it to the tank.

  It takes years of training and experience to make it drip just so... :Rolleyes:

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## zeroseven

> It takes years of training and experience to make it drip just so...

   :Biggrin:   
Just rang them, they're not sorry, but they are coming back to sort it.  I don't think it's the training or experience, it's the 14kms of tape he put around it before tightening it up.  "Just a bit of tape" he said, 15 minutes later he was still winding the tape around.

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## jags

i love this topic .....the argument has so many holes in it insurance companies must be loving it .
 "sorry  sir we believe that the person before the person before you that brought the house you now own or should i say did own before it burnt down installed the points himself and as a result 10 year down the track (now) it has shorted and burnt your house down so we are not paying .''  
 I feel if you know what you are doing do it ,if not get somebody that does  or do what i do work around the problem ....see pic .. screw paying $3000 to remove the wall and then on top of that having to get a plumber in to disconected the water and a sparky in to disconect the power  ...  
Rob

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## silentC

> I feel if you know what you are doing do it ,if not get somebody that does or do what i do work around the problem ....see pic .. screw paying $3000 to remove the wall and then on top of that having to get a plumber in to disconected the water and a sparky in to disconect the power ...

  Go for your life, mate. No-one is stopping you. Good luck with it. 
Just a question though. How do you know that you know what you are doing?

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## Ruddigar

Is there any garlic bread left?

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## chrisp

> How do you know that you know what you are doing?

  How does any one?  Seems this one is a bit of a paradox to me - there is always more to know.

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## silentC

Sorry, I was being a bit facetious. Spending too much time arguing on other threads. 
I guess there are people around who think they know, and others who really do. The only way to know you know is to have the bit of paper I suppose, although that doesn't necessarily prove much, but I suppose it's better than open slather. Isn't it?

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## jags

<TABLE class=tborder style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 557931" vAlign=top><TD class=alt2>Just a question though. How do you know that you know what you are doing?</TD></TR><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2>2nd Aug 2007 01:58 PM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> 
i think you confused my point .. 
But it's called learning the same reason you go to school the same reason tradies do an appreticeship . That 's how i know what i know . If a sparky or plumber comes and does a job and i think that in the future i could do that then i will  watch and ask him question about how he did it .  
i think if you ask all the people on this forum how they learnt the answer will be the same ... 
if you look at the pic i attached i have not touched the water or light switch . hens knowing what i don't know . 
The trouble starts by not knowing what you don't know  .. 
rob

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## silentC

I don't want to get into all this again. There's another thread on here that goes into great detail on all this. I'll leave it up to you whether you read it or not...

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## apricotripper

> just be aware that what you are doing is illegal and if someone dobs you in, you will cop a fine and have to pay a sparky to certify/fix what you have done.

  oh, get real banana peal.  :Biggrin: . Like to read the stats on that.  
I won't do something(and get a pro instead), not because of some kind of completely unrealistic chance of getting caught, but because of a good chance I might stuff it up.

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## MrFixIt

Hi 
I love this subject too  :Smilie:  
Essentially, in Australia you are not allowed to do ANYTHING if you don't have a license. 
In the UK things are quite different, maybe they think that home owners have a few brains! (I came from Liverpool UK) 44 years ago, aged 14. At that age I had already changed some electrical plugs/fittings for my dad. 
I have NOT stopped since. As I have stated in previous posts elsewhere in this forum, if I feel comfortable about doing the job, whatever it is, I do it myself. After sooo many years of DIY'ing and learning soo much about different trades most of the general DIY around the home is simple. 
So, IMHO, if you have the experience then do it. IF you need a little knowledge, like how close to a sink can you put a powerpoint then ask, BUT IMHO if you NEED to ask such a question then maybe you're just not quite cut out to do the work as most of this is common sense stuff. 
I have done all my own plumbing and electrical work for years. Do it correctly and there are no problems.

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## m2c1Iw

> I think I'll order in a pizza and just sit back and watch.

  Any pizza left I came in late I could use a beer as well thanks :Biggrin:

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## Gra

> Any pizza left I came in late I could use a beer as well thanks

  yeah, getting a little cold, pull up a bean bag, while your up get a beer from the fridge for me mate thanks

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## zeroseven

I'm amazed at the response this is provoking.  As I said earlier I think I'm going to get the electrician in to remove the ceiling fans etc.  Even though I've tackled simple electrics in the UK, I might as well get someone in to sort it and then I know it's right (Well it'd bl00dy well better be  :Biggrin:  ) 
As far as plumbing goes.  Replacing the existing bathroom, I think I'll be doing that myself.  Why I need a plumber is beyond me.  I'm a law abiding kind of person, but do I really need someone to come in and replace an existing sink or to replace a tap washer.  I've tackled this job many times before without problems and I'm more than comfortable to do it. 
Think I might have a beer and a slice of that pizza myself if there's any left....

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## DavidG

We will put a call out to Dominos. 
What is it. 5 Supreme and 4 Meateaters and one slab on the way back . :2thumbsup:

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## jags

while your at it david check if they still have the deal with the four pack of peters drum sticks ... .i think there's still life in this babe .. 
...what about de-wireing a house are you infact aloud to do this i am getting my place rewired (something i do not know how to do ) but am i aloud to rip the old lines out so the new ones can be put in place i also have a fan that i am removing am i aloud to do this ?????  
rob

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## smitthhyy

> while your at it david check if they still have the deal with the four pack of peters drum sticks ... .i think there's still life in this babe .. 
> ...what about de-wireing a house are you infact aloud to do this i am getting my place rewired (something i do not know how to do ) but am i aloud to rip the old lines out so the new ones can be put in place i also have a fan that i am removing am i aloud to do this ?????  
> rob

  You mention that your getting your place re-wired and it's something you don't know how to do. Fair enough. So why would you go and rip out the wiring that is there? Is it live? How do you know if it is live or not? How do you know your not going to kill yourself by handling or doing it wrong? 
I'm all for DIY where it makes sense. Eg run the new cable. Electrician's I use are more than happy to have me do that as it's the pain part for them and they are usually more than happy to tell you what to do (ie how far apart do you need to put cable clips, run the cable along the side of the timber in the roof, dont run it parallel to phone or data cables within 100mm etc etc. But going an ripping out what is there (ie de-installing, go make sure it's not live first or ask the sparky to check for you.)

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## Yonnee

Psshhhhhtt!!   *Takes sip, pulls up chair*
"Any pizza left?" 
Here's a thought. Years ago, when doing a course for the C.T.I.A (Caravan Trades Industries Association) Roadworthy scheme, we were told that 'technically', anyone can work-on/repair an appliance. If it can be unplugged from the wall, it's an appliance. (If it's hardwired in, like your oven, you can't touch it!) Therefore, 'technically' a caravan is an appliance, even though there are usually hardwired power points run throughout the van's interior. 
So does that mean, while my shed just has an extension lead running out to it, I can wire the rest of it up, and until it's actually connected to the meter box, it's an appliance?? 
And as for knowing what I'm doing... A father who's an Electrical Engineer with a PHD and more than 30 years working in that field, is still not "legally" allowed to touch 240/415 Volt wiring???

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## DavidG

Yonnee
That would mean that you could do all your own house wiring if the supply came from your own generator and the lead was plugged in. 
Sorry but they caught up with that one in the latest batch of changes. The answer is Nope...... :Annoyed:   :Cry:   :No:

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## silentC

> I have done all my own plumbing and electrical work for years. Do it correctly and there are no problems.

  You guys just don't get it at all, do you? 
It's not a question of whether or not people have the ability to do it themselves. It doesn't matter what they do in the UK or the US. It's not a question of what I do or you do in our own homes. It's a question of whether you should be coming onto an open public forum and encouraging people to break the law. It's just staggering. 
A guy comes on and says "what am I allowed to do myself". The answer to that is clearly and unequivocably "nothing". None of you can debate that. You're not allowed to change a socket, wire up your own lights, install your own hard wired oven. It's all illegal. The answer to the guy's question is "nothing". 
But that's not good enough for some of you. You have to come on and impress us all with how you blantantly go ahead and do your own wiring anyway. And then your advice is "hey, if you think you know what you are doing, go ahead and do it, I say". That is just dumb. Irresponsible. Bad advice. 
Stop and think about it for a minute.

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## Honorary Bloke

> And then your advice is "hey, if you think you know what you are doing, go ahead and do it, I say". That is just dumb. Irresponsible. Bad advice.

  Okay Silent. You win. Close this thread up now. Ozzies will apparently just cave in and do what Little Johnny says. Or whoever.  So there is no room for reasoned debate about whether or not the laws are silly. It just IS. I agree it is illegal. I do not agree it is rational. Why not work for change instead of just saying No Can Do?  :Smilie:

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## silentC

This is not the place to lobby for a change in legislation. I can assure you that little Johnny is not reading this. 
I think the thread asked a valid question. People coming here from the UK and elsewhere don't know what they can and can't do. I think the original poster has asked a very valid and smart question. What can I do? How many people ask that before leaping in?  
As I've argued until I'm blue in the face, it's not that I agree with the laws, it's not that I have never broken them, it's not that I don't realise that plenty of people are capable of doing their own wiring, many probably better than a licensed sparkie would. 
It is simply that, as an illegal activity, I don't feel that we should be _advising_ people to ignore the regulations and go ahead and do it anyway. That's all. Simple, really.

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## chrisp

> Why not work for change instead of just saying No Can Do?

  I'm all for change.   

> This is not the place to lobby for a change in legislation.

  On the contrary Silent, I think this is an excellent place to start a process of change.  The very fact that we have people questioning the justification for the electrical regulations in Australia is an excellent start for the process of change.  We should be discussing the justifications for the regulations and why we are out of kilter with the US and UK (who seem to have better safety outcomes!)

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## Honorary Bloke

Well, fair enough. And _of course_ Little Johnny is not reading this thread. And even if he were (is that Subjunctive or Future Perfect? I always get confused). I realise we are not going to change the world as we know it, but for heavan's (sp?)  sake, please don't get blue in the face. You are too valuable to the Forum to lose to a stroke.  :Wink:   :Smilie:   
[BTW, I have been known to be a possum stirrer.  :Biggrin:   I learned it from Cliff.]

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## silentC

> On the contrary Silent, I think this is an excellent place to start a process of change.

  OK, fair enough. Yes we should discuss it here. I just don't believe that the discussion should be along the lines of "I've been doing my own wiring for years and if I can do it, so can you." 
It only ever seems to come up when people ask questions like this one. So let's have a thread on why we should change the legislation.

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## silentC

> for heavan's (sp?) sake, please don't get blue in the face.

  I don't really get blue in the face. Just a little bit red sometimes  :Smilie:  
It's funny, in person people know when not to take me seriously because they can see the look on my face. I probably come across like a Nazi on here. Oh well, it's time for coffee. Oops, there goes the blood pressure again...

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## Honorary Bloke

> . I probably come across like a Nazi on here.

  Nein mein Fuhrer. Sie sint eine "pussycat."  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:

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## silentC

Go easy there Bob  :Tongue:

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## Honorary Bloke

> Go easy there Bob

  Good idea. I've had my tablet and now I'll have a lie down.  :Tongue:   :Wink:

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## apricotripper

> You guys just don't get it at all, do you? 
> .

   :Confused:  nup.  :No:  .and its so stagggggggggering that I don't.  
So I'll call a pro for know on. Pay the $100 up front fee etc everytime some kid puts too much toilet paper down the toilet, or I need a light bulb changed. Better to be safe than sorry. 
 Why is it legal to change a light bulb yourself ? Couldn't I die when I take the light bulb out then accidently slip my finger in the socket . jeeeeesus. I COULD DIE  :Eek:   Light bulb changing should be illegal too. I mean we're not even told on the light bulb packets NOT to stick your finger in the socket!  :Eek:   At least they could tell us to turn off the mains power first just to be on the safe side.  
Just as there's people out there who arn't capable of changing switches in walls, there would be people who can't change light bulbs. WHO SHOULDN'T EVER DO IT ! So, I definetly reakon light bulb changing should be illegal by anyone other than a fully trained electrician. So, we can ensure that those people will never ever miss their nose and accidently lodge it instead in that light bulb socket.  
I'm going to stop jaywalking too uno. Its illegal. And uno what, when my cars accross the road, instead of doing what I normally do and just cross the road to get to it, I'm going to walk 2 blocks to find a zebra crossing (so its safe to cross), cross, then walk back those 2 blocks to my car. That way I can be certain that I won't get hurt, and most importantly that I *don't break the law*.    :Smilie:

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## silentC

See, you still don't get it do ya? You haven't understood a word I've written. You're still arguing as if you think I'm saying the laws, such as they are, are wonderful. 
I couldn't give a rats what you do. Jaywalk, do your own wiring who cares? I do all of the above and more. What I'm objecting to is people coming on here advising others to break the law. Dumb.

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## apricotripper

> I do all of the above and more.

   :Eek:   :Eek:   :Eek:  whhhaaaaaaat ! you jaywalk.  :Eek:

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## silentC

Shyte yeah. I live in a country town. Everyone does it, don't they? No-one ever gets booked, it's just a dumb law that nobody ever gets fined for  :Wink:  
BTW I rang a guy from the Dept of Fair Trading in NSW about this topic a couple of months ago and he told me that householders quite often get busted and fined. His words "happens all the time". I have no stats on it, just passing on what he said... 
I met someone who got fined for jaywalking once too.

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## chrisp

> I met someone who got fined for jaywalking once too.

  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought jaywalking is when you choose not to use a proper crossing that is within something like 50m(?) of where your are.  If there was no nearby crossing within that distance, you are allowed to cross the road - with care.  So just maybe you are not jaywalking?

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## silentC

Crossing at a light controlled pedestrian crossing when the little man is red.

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## apricotripper

> I met someone who got fined for jaywalking once too.

  So, why do you risk it yourself ? its breaking the law, and what you've just said is encouraging others to think that its ok.    

> BTW I rang a guy from the Dept of Fair Trading in NSW about this topic a couple of months ago and he told me that householders quite often get busted and fined. His words "happens all the time". I have no stats on it, just passing on what he said...

  yeh, I agree that no doubt it happens. but I betya, your chances of getting in trouble with the law would up there with say your chances of getting hit by lightning or whatever. 
I agree that encouraging people to break the law is probably not a good thing, so I can see your concerns, but as you'd know, you'd have to be a mug to follow it sometimes. Better IMO, to focus on attaching those switch wires right. Gota keep your mind on the job eh. Don't want to be distracted by any thoughts of getting caught.  :Biggrin:

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## chrisp

> Crossing at a light controlled pedestrian crossing when the little man is red.

  Yep - that's a no no. 
I saw someone caught by a cop controlling a major intersection in Melbourne one time.  The cop told him to go back to the side he started from.  The guy argued that it would be shorter and quicker to continue to the other side.  I liked the cop's response "Continue across and I'll give you a ticket, or go back and consider it a warning".  Good old seat of your pants diplomacy!

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## silentC

> So, why do you risk it yourself ? its breaking the law, and what you've just said is encouraging others to think that its ok.

  Have you not read my signature line? Hmmm?? 
Look, all I'm saying is that every time we get one of these threads, as far as I'm concerned the reply should be "get a sparky" because that's the responsible thing to say, I reckon. If you want to have a debate about how things should be, I'm all for it. I agree. I wish I could go to TAFE and do a course and get a bit of paper that says I can wire my own house. 
If it was a thread about jaywalking, I would say "it's illegal to cross when the little man is red and you can be fined for doing it" end of story. I'm not going to say "but if you want to do it, I'll tell you how to get away with it" or "don't worry, you wont get caught, I do it all the time".  
The chances of someone getting hit by a car are probably somewhat higher than getting electrocuted I suppose, but still, it's illegal and things can go pear-shaped, sometimes quite badly.

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## boban

> See, you still don't get it do ya? You haven't understood a word I've written. You're still arguing as if you think I'm saying the laws, such as they are, are wonderful. 
> I couldn't give a rats what you do. Jaywalk, do your own wiring who cares? I do all of the above and more. What I'm objecting to is people coming on here advising others to break the law. Dumb.

  
I've resisted and not posted on the IQ thread or the religion one but I can't do it any longer. 
What you don't get is that doing it is illegal but discussing it is not. I can tell you all about it, and it wont be illegal.  Our NZ friends could even legally act on any information given. 
This perpetual argument is somewhat tiresome, but suffice to say that we (those who don't mind discussing electricity) realise that to do your own wiring is illegal (even running the wires).  How is giving someone the knowledge on how it all works "advising" them to break the law.  It's not, the information is readily available without breaking the law.  So discussing this information cannot be said to be illegal. 
Tell me silent, if I post this: 
Red or Brown Wire = Live, Active or Positive 
Black or Blue Wire = Neutral or Negative 
Green/Yellow Wire = Earth 
Have I just advised someone to break the law?  You've told us before how you picked it up so what is posted here (on this forum) that is so objectionable.   
Perhaps we should all preface our comments by saying "if you were in NZ you could do this legally..."   
Or is it just that you like to fish Silent? :Wink:

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## silentC

> Well, uno, you can do what ever you like ... not as if you'll ever really get in trouble with the law.....its just a matter of whether or not you'll do it right and not kill yourself. 
> Doing it for yourself well why not. 
> As far as changing sockets well if you know how why not. 
> I feel if you know what you are doing do it 
> So, IMHO, if you have the experience then do it. 
> Do it correctly and there are no problems.

   

> I've resisted and not posted on the IQ thread or the religion one but I can't do it any longer.

  If you've got something to say, don't hold back. I promise I wont cry.

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## boban

Yep, that's encouraging someone to break the law as is telling them to do the grunt work by running wires etc.   That's not the point I'm making.  I think you know that, but perhaps I shouldn't have used that quote to make the point. 
You said that the blanket answer to these questions should be "get a sparky".  That is the part I disagree with.  For mine, we should be able to discuss the issue then let the person decide for themselves what they are going to do. 
Not all of us need the cotton wool approach.

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## boban

> If you've got something to say, don't hold back. I promise I wont cry.

  I forgot to add the  :Biggrin:  after that. In any event I had nothing of merit to add to those threads.

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## silentC

OK, I can break this debate down into two fundamental points of view which I hold: 
1. Doing your own wiring is illegal in this country for better or for worse. I believe that the lines I quoted above are intended to make the reader think that it's OK to do it anyway. From a responsible point of view, I think it is wrong, given the fact that this is a public forum, not a chat around the table at the local pub between mates. 
2. I think there are people who definitely should not attempt it anyway, even if it wasn't. For two reasons: a) some people just don't have the intuitive understanding required. Not every sparky gets through his apprenticeship. Some people just don't get it. It's not a question of intelligence, but some people's brains are wired differently. b) a lot of people are very slapdash about adhering to standards - sloppy workmanship - she'll be right mate. Yes there are trades like that, but at least their work has to be inspected. 
I know a bloke who is no doubt in the genius end of the scale in IQ. He is a very intelligent chap. But there are some things that are totally logical to me that he just does not get. I would be very afraid of getting him to wire up a point, let alone an entire house. 
I understand the desire to discuss these things. I think it's a bit hypocritical to accept on the one hand that it's illegal but to help people out anyway, but life is full of contradictions. I'm presenting a strictly above board approach, I know that. It's pedantic, I can't help it, that's the way I'm wired. I'm also an argumentative SOB. Sometimes I take the opposing view to see where it goes. 
We're never going to agree, so I'll just go on saying "get a sparky" and you guys keep doing what you're doing. If the reader (who could be anyone of a million people out there) makes a decision based on the information presented, then we can ask no more or no less. 
Thank you, and good night!

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## DavidG

See  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## silentC

That guy is an optimist!  

> As far as the liability issue goes, I always attach legally drafted disclaimer statements and God willing, I hope to avoid any litigation over well-intended guidance.  There are pages on the Internet that will describe in detail how to make bombs and weapons of mass destruction.  I would hope that they would be targeted by litigation before myself, or any of my many other colleagues on the net who provide helpful advice on any subject that they feel qualified to assist with.

  And he's a Canadian!

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## wonderplumb

(long low whistle)...................
what topic are we on again??????????

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## DavidG

Shall I pop out for some more pizza?

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## Yonnee

> Yonnee
> That would mean that you could do all your own house wiring if the supply came from your own generator and the lead was plugged in.

  COOL!!! :2thumbsup:     

> Sorry but they caught up with that one in the latest batch of changes. The answer is Nope......

  Oh well... It's been a few years since I did that course.    

> Yep, that's encouraging someone to break the law as is telling them to do the grunt work by running wires etc

  Huh!! :Confused:   
Why would it be illegal to feed a piece of plastic coated copper through a length a plastic pipe, and attaching it to the frame work of a shed or house every few hundred mm?

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## boban

> OK, I can break this debate down into two fundamental points of view which I hold: 
> 1. Doing your own wiring is illegal in this country for better or for worse. I believe that the lines I quoted above are intended to make the reader think that it's OK to do it anyway. From a responsible point of view, I think it is wrong, given the fact that this is a public forum, not a chat around the table at the local pub between mates.

  No issue with the first part.  I think the public nature of the forum is more likely to result in any incorrect information being highlighted at an early stage. People are queuing up to jump on any misinformation posted on the forum.  I would be more concerned with the pub conversation.  If one mate gets it wrong and the others follow the advice.....you be the judge as to what's more likely to result in a tragedy.   

> 2. I think there are people who definitely should not attempt it anyway, even if it wasn't. For two reasons: a) some people just don't have the intuitive understanding required. Not every sparky gets through his apprenticeship. Some people just don't get it. It's not a question of intelligence, but some people's brains are wired differently. b) a lot of people are very slapdash about adhering to standards - sloppy workmanship - she'll be right mate. Yes there are trades like that, but at least their work has to be inspected. 
> I know a bloke who is no doubt in the genius end of the scale in IQ. He is a very intelligent chap. But there are some things that are totally logical to me that he just does not get. I would be very afraid of getting him to wire up a point, let alone an entire house. 
> I understand the desire to discuss these things. I think it's a bit hypocritical to accept on the one hand that it's illegal but to help people out anyway, but life is full of contradictions. I'm presenting a strictly above board approach, I know that. It's pedantic, I can't help it, that's the way I'm wired. I'm also an argumentative SOB. Sometimes I take the opposing view to see where it goes. 
> We're never going to agree, so I'll just go on saying "get a sparky" and you guys keep doing what you're doing. If the reader (who could be anyone of a million people out there) makes a decision based on the information presented, then we can ask no more or no less. 
> Thank you, and good night!

  Silent that first submission is hardly up to your usual standards.  It could equally apply to tablesaws and some people. 
As to hypocrisy, (and this is not a personal attack on you mate), couldn't the same be said of the stance that some laws must be observed, and others not observed, based on your subjective opinion of their benefit or value.   
It's probably common ground that most on this forum support the running of wires etc and having the sparky finish off (illegal as it may be) but for heaven's sake don't use your pliers and screwdriver to connect a powerpoint.  That, in my submission, is based on the subjective view held by the "call a sparky group" (for want of a better description) that one is dangerous and the other is not.  Both are illegal.  To agree with one and not the other is hypocrisy if you base your opinion on the legislation. 
Now what's for dinner? Any pizza left?

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## spartan

I love these threads....as an electrician who works for a major electrical company and does some work on the weekends to help keep my license paid for....I have also worked in the office of electrical safety. 
I think this is all about protect the pay packet of the license holder....I think from memory (perhaps and urban myth) it dates back to when Australia was receiving numerous workers from overseas...Especially those poms....The ETU push this far more than any safety body..... 
Anyway, I've seen plenty of dodgy work done by qualifed guys who should know better....I can typically spot a lot of DIY work...why because its almost too good in many instances...right down to the correct colour of tape.... 
As for the insurance issue...this is p^&* funny - Insurance companies pay when you get drunk and knock over your 20 year old frayed corded heater every day..... 
And FFS, we can't solve as many murders in all of Australia as they do on CSI on Sunday night yet we expect the fire department and insurance assessor and Office of Electrical Safety to repel in by helicopter to the site of every electrical incident ready to lift finger prints and serial numbers off arlec cable purchased at bunnies....sorry it just doesn't happen.... 
Someone dobs you in.....You might get a knock on the door...to which you say "No sir, not me sir...." 
To finish my contribution, educate not legislate...that's what the kiwis do....same electrical standards as us....  :Smilie:

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## boban

> Huh!!  
> Why would it be illegal to feed a piece of plastic coated copper through a length a plastic pipe, and attaching it to the frame work of a shed or house every few hundred mm?

  Stuffed if I know why, it just is.  Spartan has a reasonable theory on the subject though.

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## Learner

FROM SILICON CHIP MAGAZINE 
You may be able to do your own wiring in New Zealand.  
I suppose this fits in with the general picture of Australians  being apathetic but this is an issue which affects us all – all people who want  to be able to work on electrical equipment. The campaign is really two-pronged.  We’re not just campaigning that people should be allowed to do their own  home-wiring. There also should be no restrictions on people working on  mains-powered equipment.  *In countries where it is legal for home-owners to do their own  wiring, information on how to do it is freely available.* For instance, the  New Zealand government sells "code of practice" booklets to home-owners there  (NZ$5 each), to provide guidance on various aspects of electrical wiring and  appliance repairs. So while ever it is illegal in Australia for home-owners to  do their own domestic wiring, the information on how to do it is likely to be  unavailable.  http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101731/article.html 
To summarise the campaign, we are appealing to the  parliamentarians in each state to direct their electrical licensing authority  to:
 <dir>_(a) remove any restrictions which may prevent people from working  on mains-powered equipment, whether it is for the purpose of service and repair,  restoration or assembly;_ _(b) produce legislation which is based on the New Zealand  Electricity Act and Regulations, which allows householders to do their own  "electrical work", including appliance repairs and the installation of fixed  wiring. 
Letter from Silicon chip magazine_ </dir>*More on New Zealand’s electrical regulations* 
  Further to my previous letters, I spent almost the whole of  March in New Zealand and I had a very informative and productive meeting with a  senior official of the Energy Safety Service within the Ministry of Economic  Development. Here is a brief summary of some of the things I discovered.
  (1). In a comparative study of international annual electrical  fatality statistics done by the New Zealand Energy Safety Serv&#173;ice,  Queensland consistently had the highest levels of electrical fatalities in  Australia. Much more interestingly, Australia had higher levels of electrical  fatalities than any other country studied, with the exception of Northern  Ireland.
  This New Zealand study confirmed the results of a similar study  done by the German government, so the results are corrobo&#173;rated. The country  with the lowest electrical fatalities (by a huge margin, varying from year to  year between 0.5 and less than 0.1 deaths per million of population), is The  Netherlands, and this is one of the many countries that allow householder DIY  wiring). Australia has the second highest levels of annual elec&#173;trical  fatalities (varying between 2.5 and 4 deaths per million of population).
  Now Northern Ireland is an extremely turbulent society. Yet by  the German and New Zealand comparative studies, Northern Ireland is the only  country with higher levels of electrical fatalities than Australia! The  Australian statistics reflect the gross irresponsibility of the great Aussie  tradition of allowing powerful vested interest groups to "regulate"  themselves.
  (2). Prior to 1992, it was illegal for any electrician in New  Zealand to explain any technical aspect of electrical wiring to anyone who was  not a trainee electrician, or not otherwise li&#173;censed to do "electrical  work". This prohibition was seen as a serious impediment to the new electrical  safety regime and was eliminated in the 1992 changes to the NZ electrical safety  re&#173;gime. (It appears there is no similar prohibition in the current  Queensland legislation).
  (3). Anyone can assist an electrician to do electrical work in  New Zealand, without the electrician having to look over that person’s shoulder.  So for instance, after an electrician has agreed to supervise your work, you  could bolt up the control panel and connect the house cables to it on your own  and the electrician would just do a quick check on your work when it is  finished.
  (4). Only completely new work and extensions, etc, are required  to be inspected in New Zealand. You can replace and relocate wiring, power  points, switches, etc, without notifying the au&#173;thorities as long as cable  lengths are not altered. The exception is wiring in metal conduit. New  Zealanders are not allowed to work on systems run through the old metal conduit  systems. Howev&#173;er, they can remove all the metal conduit and then rewire the  house with modern cable and components.
  (5). Interestingly, the overwhelming majority of additions to  houses in New Zealand are done on an owner-builder basis, there&#173;fore much of  New Zealand DIY electrical work is the wiring asso&#173;ciated with such  additions. Of course, entire houses are built by owner-builders in New Zealand  and in these cases almost all the wiring is done by the owner.
  (6). Specially certified "inspectors" do all required  inspec&#173;tions, not ordinary electricians. The "inspectors" are liable for the  quality of the inspection but not for the quality of the work. If and when the  work appears to be particularly shoddy or unsafe the inspector can refuse to do  the inspection.
  New Zealanders are advised by their Energy Safety Service to  secure the services of an "inspector" before they begin their DIY electrical  installation work. These "inspectors" are private operators, not government  employees, and of course, the homeowner has to pay for the inspection service.  These inspectors advise the homeowner on the technical aspects of the  installation if they feel such advice is needed.
  (7). The senior NZ Energy Safety Service official I spoke to  made it clear to me that homeowner DIY wiring will not change in New Zealand as  a result of all the ongoing reviews, which are now largely concerned with the  health and safety of electrical work&#173;ers in industry. The attitude of the  New Zealand authorities is that there is no danger whatsoever when DIY  electrical work is done according to law.
  (8). The New Zealand Energy Safety Service has the attitude  that old cables, switches, power points and other fittings need to be able to be  replaced at low cost. They believe the sorts of dan&#173;gerous situations where  people continue to use cable and fittings of questionable serviceability are  dramatically reduced by allow&#173;ing householders to replace these items  themselves.
  (9). Before 1992, electrical engineers and associate engineers  in NZ were authorized to do all "electrical work". This has now changed for new  graduates though all licenses current in 1992 continue. Recently graduated  engineers and associate engineers can apply for electrical contractor licenses  after fulfilling appropriate (minimal) training.
  In Australia, there is no way to avoid the four-year  ap&#173;prenticeship. Let’s face it, which electrical contracting busi&#173;ness  would take on an adult trainee on adult wages when they can get a teenage  apprentice at slave labour rates?
  So effectively, there is no practical path to an electrical  contractor’s license for engineers and associate engineers in Australia.
  (10). When New Zealand decided to reassess its electrical  safety regime they sent an official overseas to study the electrical safety  regimes in other countries, including the United Kingdom and USA systems. In the  National Competition Policy review of electrical safety in Australia, there is  no requirement whatsoev&#173;er to even look at "world’s best practice".
  (11). In the United Kingdom, electrical licensing is relatively  weak and electrical standards compliance is primarily enforced through  insurance. The UK, which has long had householder DIY wiring, has annual  electrical fatality levels below 1.0 per million of population. Compare that to  the Australian figures!
  My extensive interactions with New Zealanders were such that I  can wholeheartedly confirm the comments of I. Morrison in the January 2001  Mailbag. New Zealand really is a much kinder, fairer society that is much more  protective of civil liberties than we are in Australia. So please, wake up  Australia! *Otto S. Hoolhorst,
Brisbane, Queensland  http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html* <dir>
</dir>

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## Border boy

Having only recently recovered from the shock of receiving a couple of bills from sparkies, I can totally understand why they would wish to "protect" their exclusive &  highly protected industry. Normal residential work charged at $65 bucks an hour - done by an apprentice???? Special work dealing with upgrading household supply  ie, giving work done by my sparkie the once over (Had a bit of a chat about the footy etc, didn't set foot outside a 2 metre radius of his work van & deemed that a 2"  piece of conduit was needed to protect the earth wire to the freshly installed earth stake was required, installed a new digital meter, 2 metres from his work van   and signed off to the local supply company - 2  hours max - labour charge $330.
I wish I was a sparky!!

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## silentC

> It's probably common ground that most on this forum support the running of wires etc and having the sparky finish off (illegal as it may be)

  As far as I know, you can do it, you can probably wire up power points too if you want - but it has to be done under the direct supervision of a sparky with his supervisor ticket. I can't find anything in the legislation that says the person physically doing the work must be qualified unless a) they are doing it commercially or b) they are not under direct supervision. 
I suppose 'direct supervision' is open to interpretation - but I don't think there is anything wrong with you pulling wires for the sparky, as long as he has told you what to do and he inspects the work. So as far as I can tell, there is an opportunity there if you can find a cooperative sparky.   

> It could equally apply to tablesaws and some people.

  You're absolutely right, it does. I hold would grave fears if certain people I know ever announced they were going to buy a tablesaw. I usually try to steer clear of that line of argument. I only brought it up because it is the underlying reason why I think a bit of control over what people do with electricity is a good thing. Lowest common denominator protectionism I know. That's why I don't get into it, because it leads to the logical conclusion of preventing everybody from doing anything that might be unsafe.  
With regard to wiring, I'm more concerned about the person who buys the house from the DIY sparky than I am about the DIY sparky himself.

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## mick101

As already posted...how does the 'do-it-yourselfer' know that things were correct in the first place....ive seen houses with reverse polarity. When i do elect work on someones house i check a lot of small things that keep people alive, earth resistance/neutrals etc etc. That is what the lic is about. 
Industry protection ? Not likely from my point of view...i could go to 20 places tomorrow & get an immediate start on stuff that has nothing to do with power points & lights. Sparks are thin on the ground.

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## Amb

> had the plumber around yesterday to fit a new pressure release valve.... it's dripping where he connected it to the tank..............So I pay $200 for the professional....and he can't even get that right.  And soon I'll have to open my house up to other professionals, I just can't wait.

  
I go along with you. In my experience, more often than not, the tradesman does a less than satsfactory job, so I always check to see he's done a good job. I trust my own work before someone else's.

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## wonderplumb

As a plumber Ive had to do a restricted electrical just to be able to replace a baby 50L HWS, LEGALLY. Someone calls me up to replace an electric instantaneous HWS, I call a sparky first off, as they run on 3 phase power. I didnt even pull cables in my own house I got my sparky mate to do the whole lot, as is the same when he renovated his bathroom, he didnt touch anything concerned with water/drainage. This is not about sparkies and plumbers "protecting" their trade as some "handymen" (and I use the term loosely) think, its about safety, there is a reason why there is a code of practice, legal implications, rules and restrictions. It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member. Ive noticed that no-one here has asked about doing their own gas work, though people dont realise that water and power can cause just as much damage with the same devestating results. Example, my sister rented a house recently where the gas HWS had ???? itself. The owner, a "handyman" as a lot of investment property owners are, had replaced this HWS. She called me up saying she didnt think it looked "right". I get over there, he had put a 135L outdoor gas HWS inside in the laundry, un-flued, used a water easy hooker on the gas from the ball valve to the heater, and instead of a TPR valve screwed a hose cock in instead. Without going into details, a storage HWS has the potential to take out half a house under these conditions. And dont get me started on Bunnings..........................

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## Terrian

> As already posted...how does the 'do-it-yourselfer' know that things were correct in the first place....ive seen houses with reverse polarity.

  there are these great little plug in testers sold at Dick Smith stores that *anyone* can buy and test power points, 5 out of about 12 power points here tested as 'Unsafe' because of 'active / neutral' reversed. These appear to all be original power points (house built in about 1963) 
I would not be surprised in similar testers were available for light sockets.

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## zeroseven

I've back for more pizza and a second question.  Beer sadly ran out over the weekend and Dan Murphys felt too far away this evening.   :Mad:   
I'm in Quakers Hill.  Has anyone had a good experience, or can they recommend an electrician/company? 
It's a bit of a minefield when you know no-one in the trade and no-one who has any recommendations for you.  Any suggestions would be much appreciated.  Otherwise I'll have to play russian roulette in a couple of weeks with the Yellow pages. 
Also, should I buy my own sockets/switches and get the sparky to fit them?  No doubt they could get them cheaper than me, but would they generally pass on this saving to you?

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## chrisp

> This is not about sparkies and plumbers "protecting" their trade as some "handymen" (and I use the term loosely) think, its about safety, there is a reason why there is a code of practice, legal implications, rules and restrictions. It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member.

  It could be worth your while reading up on some statistics on electrical safety and compare countries that allow people to do their own wiring with Australia.  See if you can find some statistics to support your proposition that it is safety. 
Also, there are people who are very knowledgeable in electrical matters (not just "handymen") who cannot obtain a wiring licence without having to do a four year apprenticeship. 
Closed shop - yep.

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## Border boy

> Also, should I buy my own sockets/switches and get the sparky to fit them?  No doubt they could get them cheaper than me, but would they generally pass on this saving to you?

  It won't make any difference.
Sure, tradies can & do get a better price on hardware, 20 to 30&#37; and maybe more than that (for the big players). Do they pass this saving onto you - NO WAY.

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## Amb

> It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down ..................

  Well I suppose you either do or don't know what you're doing. Problem is, when you don't know, then often you don't know that you don't know, if you know what I mean. When you do know what you're doing, this often means that you know what you can get away with, whether the work done is good enough or not. So the tradesman may not do the A1 job because he knows there is no need to. The DIYer with less experience will often do the A1 job.

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## Yonnee

> I didnt even pull cables in my own house I got my sparky mate to do the whole lot, as is the same when he renovated his bathroom, he didnt touch anything concerned with water/drainage.

  If we all had a sparky mate, why would any of us do our own electrical or plumbing work? 
The fact is that because you can only get a qualification to do these trades by doing an apprenticeship, and there are not enough people willing to be paid less than $200 a week to start an apprenticeship, the shortage means that most of the qualified guys are extremely busy. Supply and demand then drives the price up. Tradies then can pick and choose which jobs they do. People are then forced to make a choice whether they do without, re-mortgage the house to pay the tradesman, or take the risk and do it themselves.
If, like N.Z., the regulations were changed to allow people to do minor electrical work themselves, then the demand for electricians would decrease but I doubt the work would drop off much as they'd still have the work that pays the most such as commercial work and new home installations as well as the final sign-offs on D.I.Y. home owners work.   

> It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member.

  Despite the fact it's illegal, If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work? 
If we're going to argue about putting people in danger, then why can non-qualified people build their own houses, change the brake pads in their vehicles and manufacture their own trailers capable of carrying 4500kg and being towed at 100km/h?   

> Example, my sister rented a house recently where the gas HWS had ???? itself. The owner, a "handyman" as a lot of investment property owners are, had replaced this HWS. She called me up saying she didnt think it looked "right". I get over there, he had put a 135L outdoor gas HWS inside in the laundry, un-flued, used a water easy hooker on the gas from the ball valve to the heater, and instead of a TPR valve screwed a hose cock in instead.

  I do agree that there's no excuse for performing sub-standard work whether you're qualified or not. Maybe the good old australian, "She'll be right, mate." could have something to do with it. Maybe he couldn't get a plumber to turn up? Maybe he was a tight-??????

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## mick101

> I would not be surprised in similar testers were available for light sockets.

  I rest my case.

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## Yonnee

> I rest my case.

  Yeah, I'll pay that one... :Doh:    
But on the other hand, if you don't know and don't ask, you don't learn. It doesn't mean you're going to botch it up once you do learn, which is what some qualified's are suggesting us un-qualified's will do.

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## silentC

> If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work?

  The difference is that the work done by the qualified person has been done under license, which carries with it two assumptions: 1) that the work was done by someone who has completed a trade qualification and therefore should know what they are doing and the implications of doing it wrong; and 2) that if the work is not up to scratch, the licensee will have to come back and fix it at risk of losing his license if he doesn't. 
This is only really significant in a commercial situation, or is it? What if you buy a house from a DIYer with no idea and it is full of dodgy wiring? You have a choice to either fix it up at your own expense or live with it. You're very unlikely to get the vendor to fix it, I suppose you could take it to court, but you just wouldn't have the same legal grounding as you would if you took on a tradesman who has done a dodgy.  
Here's another thing: If I have a sparky do work on my new extension or owner-built house, he has to provide warranty on it. If I sell the house in the mean time, that warranty passes on to the new owner. If I do the wiring myself and something goes wrong after selling it, I have to fix it - the new owner gets up to 7 years warranty on it. You have to provide the new owner with warranty insurance. What that means is that if there's an electrical fault, they make a claim, the insurance company sends out an assessor, he finds that the fault was due to poor workmanship, they pay a sparky to fix it and then send you the bill. If you don't pay it, they take you to court. Very messy. 
I suppose if you intend to live in your house until you die, that's not going to be a problem. As long as it doesn't burn down in the meantime with you in it.

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## NCArcher

Just a bit on the statistics of death by electrocution.
The figures quoted earlier here and elsewhere on the web include deaths by all forms of electrocution. i.e. kids sticking a knife into a power point or toaster. Yes an RCD will shut the power off within 30msecs but not all houses have the RCD fitted by a qualified electrician or even have an ELCB device. 
Figures also include people who are electrocuted by driving their yacht into high voltage lines or Linesmen who are electrocuted while working on HV equipment and cables. People who are electrocuted when walking through a puddle while holding a microphone.
I think you will find that a number of deaths each year are qualified electricians, who become complacent and don't give electricity as much respect as they should.
I know this because i get the various trade journals which list all these deaths and the outcomes of the resultant investigations. 
Just trying to say that the statistics don't prove much of anything with regard to regulation of electrical work. 
I'll aslo add that these investigations are carried out by the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector or the Office of Fair Trading in conjunction with police.
If negligence is proven the person responsible (person who did the wiring, authorised or not) is subject to fines over $100k and/or jail terms. 
You need to decide if it's worth the risk. 
I'm qualified and I have insurance.

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## mick101

Would anyone one here hire a spark that came to the door & said he has very limited experience....no electrical lic.....isnt sure of the rules...has no copy of the rule book...very few tools & the ones he has he isnt sure of their function or reliability ??  
Would you really let him work on your house's electricals ?? 
So why would you consider yourselves doing it if you are not a qualified spark ? Is the life of a family member worth this for the odd job about the place ? You yourselves say that your not intending to go contracting...just putting in a power point right. 
Honestly im finished here. Guys its your children/house/decision.

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## Studley 2436

Personally I just think get a Sparky in and suffer the cost. Mind you I like to look after donkey work like stringing wires through and so on. Let him concentrate on the electrical. 
Studley

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## Mick72

As a licenced electrician i feel that i must comment as there seems to be a fair amount of bravado with forum members about doing their own electrical.
Do the DIY,s know the rules and understand the risks of doing it themselves?
How do they know that it was wired correctly in the first place?
How do they know that the circuit is dead before they work on it?(Leaving the light on and pulling the fuse and watching the light go out doesn't guarantee that everything is dead.)
Do they have the appropriate test equipment to test for dead?
Do they have appropriate test equipment to test the insulation resistance and do they know what the minimum insulation resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum earth resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum number of points allowable on a particular circuit is and the correct cable size for the protection?
Do they know about correct earthing requirements?
If the DIY'er answers no to any of these questions (and dozens more) then they probably shouldn't be doing the job themselves as a licensed electrician should know the answer and should not only make sure that the item that he is working on is installed correctly but also that the rest of the circuit is safe and up to standards. Remember that just because the power point works or the light switches on does not mean that the job has been done safely and up to standards.
I am only posting this as i have seen quite a few DIY jobs that have been extremely dangerous.
My two bobs worth.

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## bricks

Everything above X2 cept for tis plumbing also.

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## wonderplumb

> If we all had a sparky mate, why would any of us do our own electrical or plumbing work? 
> The fact is that because you can only get a qualification to do these trades by doing an apprenticeship, and there are not enough people willing to be paid less than $200 a week to start an apprenticeship, the shortage means that most of the qualified guys are extremely busy. Supply and demand then drives the price up. Tradies then can pick and choose which jobs they do. People are then forced to make a choice whether they do without, re-mortgage the house to pay the tradesman, or take the risk and do it themselves.
> If, like N.Z., the regulations were changed to allow people to do minor electrical work themselves, then the demand for electricians would decrease but I doubt the work would drop off much as they'd still have the work that pays the most such as commercial work and new home installations as well as the final sign-offs on D.I.Y. home owners work.   
> Despite the fact it's illegal, If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work? 
> If we're going to argue about putting people in danger, then why can non-qualified people build their own houses, change the brake pads in their vehicles and manufacture their own trailers capable of carrying 4500kg and being towed at 100km/h?   
> I do agree that there's no excuse for performing sub-standard work whether you're qualified or not. Maybe the good old australian, "She'll be right, mate." could have something to do with it. Maybe he couldn't get a plumber to turn up? Maybe he was a tight-??????

  Having a mate who was a sparky or not, it would be a sparky employed to do the work that was required of him. 
$200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.  
Despite the fact that its illegal;
Silent C has summed this up quite well....... 
As far as I understood, owner builders had to do a course of some description, still had to employ a chippie, a brickie, a sparky, a plumber, a roof tiler, a waterproofer, a wall/floor tiler, a plasterer, a glazier, a concretor, a cabinet maker, a carpet layer etc. etc. and the final result of a permanent dwelling still has to pass the councils final inspection......... 
Does every one who changes his own brake pads mic. up their discs to see if they are within acceptible tolerances? Machine theyre discs/shoes if necessary? Check wheel bearings/tie-rod ends/balljoints while its jacked up? Know how to carry out these checks? Know how to read tyre wear for signs of underlying front-end problems? Know the correct tyre pressures to run on?
Last time I checked, a trailer with a load capacity of 4500kg needed to be towed behind a truck with an aggregate weight rating of around 11,000kg, a trailer of such capacity would have to go through stringent scrutineering, the details of which Im not sure of, before it was allowed to even be parked on the road. Not something you could knock up out of a bit of steel from bunnies and a few trailer bits from supercrap over a box of stubbies with a few mates on a sunday arvo.

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## dazzler

How do I sharpen plane blades  :Confused:

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## Tas_Dean

> Psshhhhhtt!!   *Takes sip, pulls up chair*
> "Any pizza left?" 
> Here's a thought. Years ago, when doing a course for the C.T.I.A (Caravan Trades Industries Association) Roadworthy scheme, we were told that 'technically', anyone can work-on/repair an appliance. If it can be unplugged from the wall, it's an appliance. (If it's hardwired in, like your oven, you can't touch it!) Therefore, 'technically' a caravan is an appliance, even though there are usually hardwired power points run throughout the van's interior.

  
Correct regarding appliances, incorrect regarding caravans. Electrical wiring for relocatable premises (including caravans and tents) carries it's own standards - AS3001:2001. Must be done by a licensed electrician and a certificate of compliance must be attached to the relocatable premises. Caravan parks can refuse to supply a power connection without the certificate, and registration can be refused without the certificate also. 
The standard covers things including compulsory double pole switching (very expensive to buy double pole switched powerpoints), compulsory RCD/ELCB, cable types and support systems.

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## Honorary Bloke

Ahhh, going into overtime I see.    :Cheers2:

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## MurrayD99

> How do I sharpen plane blades

  Normally towed behind a ute on a bit of wire over a gravel road...  touch up the secondary bevel with a high voltage arc (use the same bit of wire if you are mean).  I can't believe this thread - pizza gone; beer gone; still it runs....

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## apricotripper

> $200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.  
> .

  Most kids at 16 or whatever are paid poorly anyway. ...struggling uni students etc.....they all winge..understandably or not.. There was a kid at the place I work that wasn't even given an apprenticeship and he's being paid something like 
$7/hour. 
Everybody looks for reason to justify being paid more no matter what your paid.

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## anawanahuanana

I always read these threads with interest, but never normally post. But hey, time for a change.
I am a licensed aircraft electrician. I am more that comfortable with wiring, bonding tests, insulation tests, continuity tests (+ have access to the test equipment to do them), crimping, the principles of electron flow versus conventional flow. I know what capacitors, resistors, thermal trip C.Bs and fuses do. I am not ashamed to admit that I have replaced a fan, fitted a new GPO, and removed and refitted more than a few light switches, as well a couple of downlights in my house, and would do it again as required. I would never even consider going near the switchboard though. I draw a firm line there. 
Now, I think that there should be some mechanism for me to go to my local TAFE, and learn and be examined on the details required to pick up a licence to do simple electrical work on my own house. But alas I have no choice but to leave my job to do a 4 year apprenticeship. 
This is nothing but protectionist nonsense. I agree that there are people who shouldn't be allowed to even turn on a light switch, let alone change one, but I also think that there has to be some room for common sense, hence the need to be examined, both written and practically if necessary, to pick up the restricted licence. It's all very well saying "get a sparky" at everything, but this isn't always as easy as it sounds. A lack of qualified guys leads to people not turning up to quote (happened to me on more than 1 occasion) and when they do, pushing the price up as it's only a small job. 
I agree with SilentC to a certain extent when he says that we should not be encouraging people to break the law, and I wouldn't actively encourage anyone to do so, but I also think that a lot of these people are going to do it anyway, and if I'm going to unwittingly buy a house off 1 of them one day, I'd hope that at least they had been given some good advice before they caried out their illegal wiring. At the end of the day I'd sleep better at night if someone asked me how to wire up a new light and I told him he souldn't do it, but if he was to, he should do it like this. I definately would have a few sleepless nights if I told him he shouldn't be doing it and walked away to find that he did it anyway and killed his family while they slept. 
Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion. Firstly, it shouldn't be substandard. That's why you paid through the nose to get it done. Secondly, how would I know it was not up to scratch if I'm not allowed to ask how things should be done and learn a bit about the regs and requirements? Having done a fair bit of renovation on my house so far, I have to say that I am surprised at the standard of some things when it comes to building a house. Aircraft wiring is loomed carefully, with stand-offs at well defined distances. My house wiring, put in by a "professional" is laid all over my roof space in a very haphazard fashion. I even found one bit of GPO wiring that had been trapped between a metal plate and the roof truss, nearly cutting the insulation right through.  :No:  This done, or at least inspected, buy a licensed electrician when the house was built 12 years ago.  
To finish, I think that the electrocution stats are valid data, in that it doesn't really matter who they comprise of. All countries have home DIY'ers, professional electricians, electric company employees in cherry pickers, people in boats with big masts (well, maybe not ALL countries!) and kids that fly kites near substations. The simple fact is that as hard as the government thinks it is protecting the population from the perils of electricity, it doesn't seem to be working. But then again, why would the government, Liberal or Labour, want to take on the unions and possibly reduce the amount of cash that one of their groups make? They say electrical DIY is unsafe, so it must be true. They also said Iraq had WMD the petrol companies are in it for the consumers, and everybody would love WorkChoices.............. :Doh:

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## silentC

> I think that there should be some mechanism for me to go to my local TAFE, and learn and be examined on the details required to pick up a licence to do simple electrical work on my own house.

  I agree, but then who is going to inspect it? Bet you didn't know that a sparky needs an inspector's license to inspect his own work. The guy we used was working under another blokes license because he didn't have the qualifications to inspect his own work, so even though he's a fully qualified sparky of 40 years, he still needs someone else to OK it before the Country Energy guys would let him connect it.  

> I'd hope that at least they had been given some good advice before they carried out their illegal wiring

  I'd prefer that it had been done by someone with a license whose asre I could kick if there was a problem. If I say to someone "get a sparky" (I'm not qualified to answer electrical questions anyway), rather than "hey, you shouldn't do it, but here's how some bloke you've never met who thinks he knows all about wiring and stuff reckons you should do it" then my conscience is clear. I mean to say, how does the DIYer that comes on to ask the question know that the person giving them advice knows what they are talking about? Could be the blind leading the blind. Yes, yes I know that applies to everything on here but it puts a bit of a hole in the argument that seeking and obtaining advice on an Internet forum at least assures that the illegal wiring job will be done right, doesn't it? Yes, I believe it does.  

> Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion.

  See above! It's all about having a license number to refer to. They have to give you a certificate of compliance with their license number on it. If they do sub-standard work, or there is a problem with something they have done, you've a much better chance of getting it fixed if you have a formal paper trail, than if it was DIY Bob doing his own wiring.  

> I think that the electrocution stats are valid data, in that it doesn't really matter who they comprise of

  Of course it matters. What does the number of people electrocuted whilst working on high voltage lines have to do with the safety or otherwise of wiring in people's houses? Nothing, that's what. I'm not saying that the stats don't support the argument that Australia has no better a safety record than the rest of the world. Maybe it doesn't. But I fail to see how looking at the stats for electrocutions in general proves anything. In any case, this argument only applies if you believe that the reason for having licensing laws has anything more than a minor connection to safety. I think it has more to do with regulating the industry, giving a clear onus of liability, and getting rid of dodgy backyarders.

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## anawanahuanana

> I agree, but then who is going to inspect it?

   Thats my point for being examined. It shouldn't require further inspection. The aviation industry is one of, if not the most, regulated industries in Australia. I hold a licence allowing me to work on a $100m dollar aircraft, carrying 400 people 40,000ft in the air, and the privelages of my licence mean that I can certify my work as fit to fly. Having to hold an inspectors ticket to inspect a licensed electricians work is just another level of money generating. Why bother to licence the sparky if it all has to be examined anyway? May as well let anyone have a crack at wiring, and just make it the law that it has to be inspected for compliance.   

> I mean to say, how does the DIYer that comes on to ask the question know that the person giving them advice knows what they are talking about? Could be the blind leading the blind. Yes, yes I know that applies to everything on here but it puts a bit of a hole in the argument that seeking and obtaining advice on an Internet forum at least assures that the illegal wiring job will be done right, doesn't it? Yes, I believe it does.

   Not necessarily. If someone comes on here asking how to tell if a GPO is still live and I post that they should just touch the live and neutral conductors at the same time with the tip of a screwdriver to see, there would be a huge number of replies telling the OP not to do it! This is only possible because of the large number of people posting on these forums. If it were only viewed by a person every other day, I would completely agree with you.   

> If they do sub-standard work

   But they shouldn't be doing substandard work. That's why we're all told to employ a professional.....   

> Of course it matters. What does the number of people electrocuted whilst working on high voltage lines have to do with the safety or otherwise of wiring in people's houses? Nothing, that's what.

   I agree. But if you assume (and some of the safety argument is assumptions) that there is a reasonably proportional amount of people killed whilst working on high voltage transmission lines etc in developed countries with rigorous health and safety regimes, then what is left over is important. What I'm arguing is that basically in a given number of people, in the U.K to pick a country at random, say 20 % of electrocutions were high voltage transmission lines. It's not a huge jump to assume that therefore somewhere in the same region may be the number killed by the same cause in Oz. I know its not exact, but bear with me. The fact is that there are a lot more electrocution deaths in OZ than in other developed countries. Therefore, either our "professional" electrical workforce are really careless at their jobs and don't adhere to the rules, or a lot of DIY'ers are shocking themsleves because they are trying to do things that they shouldn't be, with no information. There will always be people who will either want to do things for themselves, either for financial reasons, or because they enjoy it. All I'm saying is allow them to be educated in a controlled way, instead of by word of mouth and advice from unqualified individuals. Unfortunately the government/unions/whoever doesn't want to allow that, so the informal advice is all that is left to try an maintain some level of safety.

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## silentC

> It shouldn't require further inspection.

  If you want to argue for a change to the system, then by all means do so (still waiting for someone to start the thread) but with the system such as it is, even a TAFE training course would be limited in what it qualified you to do, without you needing to have it inspected.  

> May as well let anyone have a crack at wiring, and just make it the law that it has to be inspected for compliance.

  That is pretty much what the law says. Anyone can do the wiring, as long as they are under direct supervision of a licensed person. And all work must be tested by a person authorised to do so.   

> This is only possible because of the large number of people posting on these forums.

  And witness how many different answers you get to any conceivable question. Ultimately the DIYer has to decide who is right and who is wrong. There's also the question of people giving advice when they are not on site. How to test that a plug is live? Yeah, sure you can probably explain to someone how to do that. But wiring questions like "I have four red wires, two black and two green, which ones do I hook my new light up to" - how can anyone give a reliable answer to that without being there? 
Regarding stats, if you really want to examine it, you also need to look at house fires started by faulty wiring. You would need to know, of those, which wiring jobs were legal under the new system vs. those that weren't.   

> Therefore, either our "professional" electrical workforce are really careless at their jobs and don't adhere to the rules, or a lot of DIY'ers are shocking themsleves because they are trying to do things that they shouldn't be....

  You should stop right there. That's right, doing things they shouldn't be. I'm not sure that I agree with the argument that the way to stop people doing silly things is to make it easier for them. It's a bit like injecting rooms in a way. They're going to do it anyway, so why not give them somewhere clean to do it. I wonder how many people have actually gotten off the drugs as a result. Maybe I'm wrong on that, not sure. 
As I said, I don't necessarily agree with the safety argument. I don't know why the legislation was created, but I doubt that safety has all that much to do with it. As I said, I think it has more to do with industry regulation (controlling who is doing what on building sites), making sure there are backsides to kick when things go wrong, and cleaning up the dodgy stuff that was going on twenty years ago.

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## MrFixIt

Hi   

> Does every one who changes his own brake pads mic. up their discs to see if they are within acceptible tolerances? Machine theyre discs/shoes if necessary? Check wheel bearings/tie-rod ends/balljoints while its jacked up? Know how to carry out these checks? Know how to read tyre wear for signs of underlying front-end problems? Know the correct tyre pressures to run on?

  Yes  :2thumbsup:  BUT the discs only JUST fit in my lathe.

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## Cauterise

1. Yes it's a regulated industry, but so is selling real estate and operating taxis. So what.  
2. You *can* get authorisation to wire your own residence/property (or residence you can prove you have an interest in) if you have a degree in electrical engineering. Whover siad you couldn't is mistaken. Make written application or go and apply personally.  
3. In the absence of a contractor's licence, licensed electricians are only allowed to work on their own residence/property. Go figure - licensed, qualified electricians legally can't wire the neighbour's front light. 
4. In some cases blue wires are not negative/neutral (ever heard of blue phase Boban?) you may not have broken the law by posting that, but if humans were still dependant on the food chain, you'd go hungry.  
5. Apprenticeships are financial short term pain for long term gain. It costs time and money to train someone who can be literally useless for a year or two before becoming productive.  
6. Whoever said don't touch the switchboard is spot on. Get a contractor in, get a shedload of protection on every circuit (ie ELCB/RCDs) and then you can knock yourself out (illegally of course) playing with your power circuits, your light circuits, whatever. No one will lose sleep over your dodgy wiring if there is sufficient protection tripping the circuit every time you sneeze.  
7. People die from illegal or untested wiring. I can think of 2-3 cases off the top of my head. I also know a chippie/builder who now has fused vertebrae due to some reckless tosser's illegal, untested wiring. Read any of the regulatory authority periodicals and you'll find the instances of prosecutions, accidents etc. 
8. Electricians aren't professionals, they are trades people. The electrical industry is regulated by bureacrats, it is not a self-governing industry. Take your anger out on the bureacrats. If you don't understand what I mean by this - do some research on the meaning of what are and what aren't professions. You might say semantics, but I think an important point if you are going to slag the electrical trade wholesale. 
Long and the short of it is this - yes, anyone with a modicum of intelligence should be allowed to work on their own property as long as they wire it in accordance with appropriate standards and local regulations, test it and submit it for inspection by the regulatory authority.  
If you are going to illegally wire something (ie unlicensed wiring, not shonky wiring), do yourself a favour, get a copy of the Australian Standard (will cost you $100 or so) and read up. Hands up if you buy books to help you get the most from your band saw, table saw, router, whatever. Hell, most of you probably even have a workshop manual for changing the brakes.  
As for changing lights, power points etc., just make sure the terminals are done up tight, it isn't just a case of getting the wires round the right way, even a monkey can imitate, but get those terminals secure. My bet is that more electrical fires happen as a result of loose connections than anything else. 
Use correct equipment (including connectors, tape, junction boxes, whatever). Know when a job is too much for you and steer clear. Don't guess, and most importantly test, test, test everyting and abide by the Wiring Rules even for 'illegal' work done outside the regulatory authority's oversight. Beg, buy or steal some test equipment. Prove dead and check thoroughly when done. 
As for changing the system - if you want to do something, write to your local regulator and ask for a permit to wire your own house, when the obvious reply comes in, write to your local member and ask for a change. if enough people want change it will happen. But, in the mean time, self-select, recognise your limits.  
I'd like one of you to be a test case, admit to having installed a power point, submit the paperwork on your own behalf and then test in the courts your right to do so in your own house. 
Cheers.

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## MrFixIt

Hi  

> Saying that a licensed sparky has to come back and fix up his earier substandard work is also a moot point in my opinion. Firstly, it shouldn't be substandard.

  This IMHO is a substantial part of the problem, the lack of GOOD tradespeople! 
For a slightly OT example, but along the same line, I had a painter paint our house inside and out. The _quality was less than the previous paint job that *I* did_. The painter *came back THREE times* to fix problems before I finally had to call in the Painters Registration Board. The painter *STILL had to come back another TWO times* to finally have the job passed by the PRB. I had *TWO full pages of "faults"*. So how does a person that knows nothing about painting get the correct job done in the first place? 
In another instance, I had a bricklayer come and repair a brick wall. This was a 45deg corner that had to be knocked down and rebuilt using the same bricks. 
As I watched from the kitchen window, I could *SEE* at the third course that the wall was going *HIGH* at the corner. Approx *1cm in 2.5m*. 
I asked him "Couldn't he use a string line" the feeble excuse of it was too hard because of the corner meant the bricklayer was going to continue WITHOUT the string line. 
After reaching half the height of the wall, it was more out of level than before! 
I again brought this to the attention of the bricklayer. BTW my dad was a bricklayer (a TOP CLASS tradesman after a 5 YEAR bricklaying apprenticeship), so I am aware of quality bricklaying and have an exceptionally good eye for level  :2thumbsup:  The next day the bricklayer did concede a little and knocked off six courses to try again. 
The nett result was *abysmal*  :Annoyed:  In the length of *three metres the wall rises 2.5cm* - rediculous. The bricklayer *STILL* could NOT see the "error". I offered him the choice of FIXING the wall or getting paid HALF his quoted price he did NOT want to fix his work, so was paid half. I STILL see this wall  every day from the kitchen window. 
BTW the neighbour across the road recently had his wall rebuilt (different bricklayer). His wall drops nearly 5cm in 6 metres - THAT'S HALF A BRICK  :Shock:   
...and some people here wonder *WHY* I do my own work? 
At least **I* do it correctly and properly THE FIRST time*. I KNOW I can trust my own work. I served an aprenticeship (Fitting & Maching), though far removed  from the trades discussed here, but the training given IMHO was better in those days. Today's apprentices are not as well trained, as the quality of trades has diminished over the years and will continue to drop as the quality continues to diminish.  _There ARE a few good tradesmen out there_, I have come across a few of them and we have had similar discussions to that on which this thread is based. They agree with the sentiments expressed here that DIY is quite often BETTER than the quality received from tradespeople. 
So I will continue to do my own quality work and recommend that those that CAN, also do the same. If you cannot to a task then by all means of course HIRE and PAY for a professional tradie, JUST be sure of who you get and that *they ARE good at their trade*.

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## silentC

Did it ever occur to you that, just as there are varying degrees of standards and abilities amongst tradesmen, there are also varying degrees of the same amongst DIYers? At least with the tradesman, you _had_ a Painters Registration Board to call. Who are you going to call when your son or daughter's house catches on fire because of the dodgy job the previous owner did on the wiring? 
You might be the solid gold, shyte hot workman that you say you are, I don't know, I've never seen your work. But that is not the point. The point is that a) you're suggesting that people break the law and b) confessing to doing it yourself, all the time, on a public forum for all to see. We all know your first name, what you drive, and where you live. 
I saw a story on one of those current affairs programs the other night about young kids getting into trouble in chat rooms because they don't appreciate just how public their conversations are. No different here.

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## chrisp

> 2. You *can* get authorisation to wire your own residence/property (or residence you can prove you have an interest in) if you have a degree in electrical engineering. Whover siad you couldn't is mistaken. Make written application or go and apply personally.

  Cauterise, 
 Great first post! 
I agree with most of your points, but I would like to know more about your experiences with point 2. 
My experience is that you can *not* get a license to wire your own even if you are an electrical engineer.  In Victoria it is called an "occupier's  license" but there quite a few catches in the application process.  You need 80 hours supervised experience; you need a "supervised workers license" to get the experience, you need to sit the test to get the "supervised workers license", but you can not sit it unless you are apprenticed.  Bottom line I was told by the OCEI was the only way was a 4 year apprenticeship .

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## DavidG

Just a scenario: 
Suppose  :Redface: 
1. I worked for a Gov dept responsible for control of wiring. 
2. I read this forum. 
3. I asked the owner of board for the Email address and IP address of certain respondents. 
4. I traced the street address of the respondents through their internet supplier. 
Who would have a worried look when I came to inspect their wiring. :Shock:

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## journeyman Mick

> 1. Yes it's a regulated industry.................... 
> ........................I'd like one of you to be a test case, admit to having installed a power point, submit the paperwork on your own behalf and then test in the courts your right to do so in your own house. 
> Cheers.

  
Cauterise, welcome aboard, and thank you for a very complete and insightful commentary on this long running debate. I reckon it would have to rate as one of the best first posts.  :2thumbsup:   
Mick

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## MurrayD99

> Cauterise, welcome aboard, and thank you for a very complete and insightful commentary on this long running debate. I reckon it would have to rate as one of the best first posts.   
> Mick

  
Well put! :2thumbsup:

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## MrFixIt

Hi   

> You might be the solid gold, shyte hot workman that you say you are, I don't know

  Thank you for the compliment  :Biggrin:

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## Cauterise

ChrisP - Bloody Victoria! Bloody bureacrats. 
Website you refer to is here - http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectri...0/Default.aspx 
All I can suggest is to keep trying, put your request in writing, rather than over the phone, and state your experience, quals etc. If no luck, threaten them with an appeal to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal - sometimes the stick approach works. 
And as for being excluded from the test, get them to put that in writing too. Seems to me to be farcical - what's the point of having the test requirement if you can't sit it? 
In other states where I have worked (Tas, WA & Qld) it seems to be a much more friendly approach - ie recognise that you have the theory & skills and if you're willing to be tested for compliance, then you get the permit.

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## Sturdee

> Just a scenario: 
> Suppose 
> 1. I worked for a Gov dept responsible for control of wiring. 
> 2. I read this forum. 
> 3. I asked the owner of board for the Email address and IP address of certain respondents. 
> 4. I traced the street address of the respondents through their internet supplier. 
> Who would have a worried look when I came to inspect their wiring.

  
Wouldn't be surprised if that happens sooner then later the way this debate on flouting the laws keeps on going on.  
BTW those who want to do some wiring part themselves under an electrician supervision better make sure that they agree with the electrician as to what and how they do it.   
My electrician friend was recently called out to check and finish of a job after some wiring work had been done by the homeowner.  
He saw that some of that wiring was behind plaster and some in conduits, because he couldn't see and inspect all the wiring he refused and quoted on replacing all the wiring already done by the homeowner. 
As his quote wasn't accepted he reported the matter to the Office of Electrical Safety, as he was required to do, and the same day the power company disconnected the supply because of illegal wiring. 
A full and complete inspection and certification by an electrician was required to get the power back on. Hence no cost savings. 
Peter.

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## silentC

> Thank you for the compliment

  You're welcome  :Smilie:  But don't be offended if I don't get you over to do my next wiring job  :Wink:

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## chrisp

> Wouldn't be surprised if that happens sooner then later the way this debate on flouting the laws keeps on going on.

  Most of the debate has been on the reason for the regulation.    

> BTW those who want to do some wiring part themselves under an electrician supervision better make sure that they agree with the electrician as to what and how they do it.

  Good idea.  If the story is true and complete (but I find it a bit hard to believe the story as it stands - most wiring is covered in one way or another :Rolleyes: ), I'd suggest that people also give Sturdee's electrician friend wide berth.

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## silentC

> Most of the debate has been on the reason for the regulation.

  Unfortunately, yes, despite my best efforts  :Smilie:  
Still waiting for that thread: Do you think the regulations preventing unlicensed people from doing their own wiring should be revoked?

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## chrisp

> Still waiting for that thread: Do you think the regulations preventing unlicensed people from doing their own wiring should be revoked?

  Done - see "Polls" :Smilie:

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## bricks

The Electrical & Gas industry is run by the O.T.R - Office of the Technical Regulator.  
Little known fact about the O.T.R - They are the only government department in this country which is not funded by the government. 
The liscence fees that Gasfitters and Electricians pay in this counrty go solely to the O.T.R for 100&#37; or their funding. This is why regular tradies pay a liscence fee and Contractors pay a contractors fee ( which is higher) Because contractors also have to pay for the inspections that will be done on their work from time to time.
The problem with Un-liscenced people doing any work in Liscenced trades is that their work will NEVER be inspected until something goes wrong. Therein lies the problem- how do you ensure compliance on a DIY job, no-body knows it even exists? 
Their should be an Avenue for home owners to do their own work- by submitting an "intention to carry out work" form followed up by a mandatory inspection which would have to be paid for- probably at an hourly rate for the inspector- or certified by a contractor who inspects the work at each stage. Why would DIYers need to pay for the inspections- because all tradesmen pay for them- thats what our liscence fees are for. 
Of course DIY cowboys would not get the mandatory inspections to save a few bucks and now we are back to square one.  
How the hell do you regulate a DIY industry where IMO most of the peanuts who do the dodgy work believe they are above the law and therefore are not going to comply with anything- Those types of people probably dont even register on a forum like this because they couldn't give a rats a%^$ what anyone else thinks. Like those clowns that ask "can i do this" and someone replys "no you cant its illegal" they then go on to argue the point why it "is legal and they are doing it anyway" why even ask the question, is it just so you can stick it up a tradie? 
In summary ( sorry for the rant) Theres no way to regulate a DIY industry that doesn't want to be regulated - if you dont submitt the correct forms , high chance is you won't be caught unless you kill someone or wreck property. - and yes liscenced trades need to be regulated for saftey and compliance, We all hear no end the amount of liscenced trades doing dodgy& dangerous things. Imagine the DIY disaster. 
What really gets me going is cowboys contracting out to an un-suspecting public without a liscence or the training. 
My two cents and a bit more.  http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov.../about_us.html

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## Tas_Dean

> The Electrical & Gas industry is run by the O.T.R - Office of the Technical Regulator. 
>  <SNIP>
> What really gets me going is cowboys contracting out to an un-suspecting public without a liscence or the training. 
> My two cents and a bit more.

  
Well said, all of it, including what I cut out! 
Is their really people contracting out without any licenses? 
Here in Tasmania, all advertising done by electricians must include their contractors license number. This includes Yellow Pages, the signs on their vehicles and workshops, everything. It's not uncommon to see contractors license numbers on their job adds (where the business has advertised their name, obviously not if they only list replies to a PO box), although I'm not sure whether the OTR will push the issue that far on job adds.
Many electrical contractors have been fined for omitting this number from adds, so obviously it is checked upon. 
I know apprentices and etc do "cashies", but I haven't really heard of unlicensed people advertising. Maybe some people that advertise as "handyman" services overstep the mark somewhat.

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## apricotripper

> Do the DIY,s know the rules and understand the risks of doing it themselves?
> How do they know that it was wired correctly in the first place?
> How do they know that the circuit is dead before they work on it?(Leaving the light on and pulling the fuse and watching the light go out doesn't guarantee that everything is dead.)
> Do they have the appropriate test equipment to test for dead?
> Do they have appropriate test equipment to test the insulation resistance and do they know what the minimum insulation resistance is and how to test for it?
> Do they know what the maximum earth resistance is and how to test for it?
> Do they know what the maximum number of points allowable on a particular circuit is and the correct cable size for the protection?
> Do they know about correct earthing requirements?
> If the DIY'er answers no to any of these questions (and dozens more) then they probably shouldn't be doing the job themselves as a licensed electrician should know the answer and should not only make sure that the item that he is working on is installed correctly but also that the rest of the circuit is safe and up to standards. Remember that just because the power point works or the light switches on does not mean that the job has been done safely and up to standards.
> ...

  I don't know. I'm an idiot.  
ok, a hypooothetical situation .....say I've got a new switch in my hand from bunnings.. :Rolleyes:  ....and on the wall in front of me is an old switch thats worked everyday up till recently and I want to replace it so I can turn the hall light on again....tell me where I could have killed myself.  
I went out to the box and turned the power off. The whole house goes dead. All the lights off. The misses screams out........Clearly its off like every other time I've done it. 
But I check to ensure its off with one of those voltage pens from dick smiths that I tested prior to turning the power off anyway. The pen doesn't light up, nothings getting power  :2thumbsup:   :Rolleyes:   
I unscrew the thing, pull it out from the wall. Touch the wires and sigh a relief that I'm still alive..... There's 3 wires going into it. two of the wires are bound together in the same terminal. just two terminals. I think ' well the switch must close/open these terminals to the light. ' .......I disconnect the terminals. check for a continuity test with my dick smiths multimeter on the old switch . I check the multimeters set right...uno..beeps when I cross the sticks :Rolleyes:  . When I flick the switch, I realise that its not beeping at all in either switch position..........ie. the switch is not closing the circuit. Its stuffed.  
So , how do I know which way the wires go on the new switch that I'm about to install ? Well same check on the new switch to find out which terminals open/close when I switch and just use those terminals. Doesn't matter which is which as long as I use those two. I mean, so I assume. 
screw it all up tight. Tug on the wires to check. Everything looks fine. Screw the new switch in the wall, turn the power back on ........and it works.  
Was I lucky ? Where could have I killed myself. Am I killing my family if I do this.....As an electrician would have you considered things like ......... 
maximum earth resistance
maximum insulation resistance
scratching me balls
correct earthing requirements
maximum number of points
picked me nose
and the dozern others 
.........
for a job like that.......... 
or would have you just picked up the efen switch and installed it just like I did and charged me $300 for it ? ... try and nock off a couple more jobs like that before lunch.

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## bricks

The first thing he would have checked is the globe and socket...( duh)
In the middle he would have checked for overloading of the circuit/switch...Also burnout and shorting....
The last thing he would have checked is the entire circuit... to ensure that there are no other hidden problems...( required by law)

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## Tas_Dean

And he certainly wouldn't have touched the wires. Treat them all as if they are live! 
A hot neutral is a danger on light switches also. 
The light up pens, whilst they are reasonable, I would not trust my life to one.

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## apricotripper

> The first thing he would have checked is the globe and socket...( duh)
> In the middle he would have checked for overloading of the circuit/switch...Also burnout and shorting....
> The last thing he would have checked is the entire circuit... to ensure that there are no other hidden problems...( required by law)

  Well I did check the globe first........even got the ladder out. I thought I detailed enough.  
the switch was clearly not working as normal. Press it and it wouldn't flick properly like every other switch in the house (duh  :Biggrin:  )... 
Knowing that, do you think most electricians would bother checking everything else you mentioned , with a dumb looking bloke like me saying .........' duuuuhm, whaaaaats that thing ? '....or maybe they'd would if only to burn a bit more time and look as if their earning there $300

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## apricotripper

> And he certainly wouldn't have touched the wires. Treat them all as if they are live! 
> A hot neutral is a danger on light switches also. 
> The light up pens, whilst they are reasonable, I would not trust my life to one.

  I wouldn't touch it to test it. I was just being a wanker.  
So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd still fiddle about trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the exposed wires ? ... 
Not having a go......... just curious........all electricians do that as well ? fiddle about all day long worrying about touching exposed wires after that kind of certainty ?

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## pharmaboy2

> I wouldn't touch it to test it.  I was just being a wanker.  
> So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd fiddle about awkwardly with, what, plyers only (like one in each hand) trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the wires ? ... 
> Not having a go......... just curious........all electricians do that as well ?

  LOL, same as all electricians go through the entire house and count the GPO's on a circuit with a multimeter before changing a single over to a double!   :Wink:   
Funny, isnt it, a homeowner can  stick a balcony up at the back of their place without a chippie, stack 40 drunk people on it, and alls rosey, but stuff me, pulling out the red and black wire and putten back in a new switch instantly burns your little baby alive, and lands you in jail for 3 life terms!   :Wink:  
Good thing those americans and poms and New Zealanders are so much smarter than us Aussies..............

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## boban

> 4. In some cases blue wires are not negative/neutral (ever heard of blue phase Boban?) you may not have broken the law by posting that, but if humans were still dependant on the food chain, you'd go hungry.

  Yes, but you know I was talking about single phase and was making a point about what could be discussed and further that education was the key. It was merely an example I used to make a point.  That view however might not be as convenient to your criticism however. 
And just as you like being smart, is the blue phase (a bright blue) found in the company of the brown active, or is it found in the company of the white and red phases.    
I think you have proved my point about people just waiting for something to jump on. 
I think you should play the ball.  Not that I even understand what you mean by that food chain statement. 
Having read the balance of your post, it appears that we are in agreement about getting the correct information.  As I've said before and you've repeated, its readily available from Standards Australia. 
The funny thing is, I don't even need to do my own electrical nor do I have to pay for having someone do it. 
I don't know why I even bother posting on this forum.  Perhaps I'm being a big girl, but someone should just ban me and put me out of my misery.  See ya.

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## Yonnee

> Having a mate who was a sparky or not, it would be a sparky employed to do the work that was required of him...

  ...done at "mate's rates", and at a time convenient to yourself.   

> $200 a week for a 1st year apprentice is the harsh reality of it, always has been and if your 16, living at home with mum and dad paying the bills, doing your washing, wiping your backside still then why not do a trade? I believe it comes down to a lack of willingness to do a bit of hard work combined with the lure of big dollars in administrative and IT work that shies kids away from doing trades these days.

  But the point I was making is that an apprenticeship is the ONLY way you can become a sparky, so who else other than a 16 yr old living at home can afford to do it? At 35 with a wife, two kids and a mortgage, I certainly couldn't. Why shouldn't you be able to do a Tafe course to perform limited tasks such as running wiring, fitting light switches and GPO's, to then get it inspected by a licenced inspector?   

> As far as I understood, owner builders had to do a course of some description, still had to employ a chippie, a brickie, a sparky, a plumber, a roof tiler, a waterproofer, a wall/floor tiler, a plasterer, a glazier, a concretor, a cabinet maker, a carpet layer etc. etc. and the final result of a permanent dwelling still has to pass the councils final inspection.........

  A mate of mine has recently moved into a house that he and his wife built from scratch by filling out an application form to owner build, and the only help they had was with the final architectural drawings, the external frame (all internal walls done themselves), bricklaying and the roof tiles. The plumbing and electrics were done by the wife's qualified brothers and everything else was done by themselves. (She's an accountant and He's in IT. No course, no qualifications.)   

> Does every one who changes his own brake pads mic. up their discs to see if they are within acceptible tolerances? Machine theyre discs/shoes if necessary? Check wheel bearings/tie-rod ends/balljoints while its jacked up? Know how to carry out these checks? Know how to read tyre wear for signs of underlying front-end problems? Know the correct tyre pressures to run on?

  No, no, no, no, no, & no... but the point I was making here was the fact that you DON'T have to be qualified to perform Mechanical work at home and you have just as much chance of killing someone by a dodgy brake or suspension overhaul as the dodgy wiring.    

> Last time I checked, a trailer with a load capacity of 4500kg needed to be towed behind a truck with an aggregate weight rating of around 11,000kg, a trailer of such capacity would have to go through stringent scrutineering, the details of which Im not sure of, before it was allowed to even be parked on the road. Not something you could knock up out of a bit of steel from bunnies and a few trailer bits from supercrap over a box of stubbies with a few mates on a sunday arvo.

  Check again! You might be the plumber, but I'm the trailer specialist.
The regulations for building small trailers here in Australia are a National code for doing so and are applicable for trailers with a GVM of 1 to 4500kg. The only item that requires an Australian Standard is your coupling, and your drawbar is supposed to be able to cope with longitudinal and lateral stresses calculated from the carrying capacity. I say "supposed to", because as long as it looks like it might do the job, there is no test done for it, and it will usually pass registration. Unless you've made it from Balsa wood... but Hey, there's nothing in the reg's to say you can't! 
The national regulations for towing trailers is 1.5 times the unladen weight of the tow vehicle (or the manuf'rs maximum), so you'd only need a 3000kg tow vehicle with the right tow hitch (A 90's model Discovery can tow 4000kg and an 80/100 series L/Cruiser 3500kg). 
Joe Blow can build you a trailer in his own back shed, with no experience and no welding skills, he buys his axles with brakes, spring set and coupling from a trailer parts supplier rated to do the job, and that trailer can be registered up to 4500kg with little or no problem at all! And certainly no scrutineering other than to see if the lights work.

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## Yonnee

> Correct regarding appliances, incorrect regarding caravans. Electrical wiring for relocatable premises (including caravans and tents) carries it's own standards - AS3001:2001. Must be done by a licensed electrician and a certificate of compliance must be attached to the relocatable premises. Caravan parks can refuse to supply a power connection without the certificate, and registration can be refused without the certificate also.

  I stood corrected earlier and I'll stand again. :2thumbsup:   "AS3001:_2001_" The course I did was prior to 2000 and as I understand now the regulation has been tightened, and the loophole closed. :Biggrin:

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## Yonnee

But aren't we getting away from the original question of "What am I allowed to do?" 
The simple answer is N-O-T-H-I-N-G- :Exclaim:   
No matter how much we debate it, as fun and enjoyable as it is, and how ridiculous some of us think the laws are, the fact of the matter is you're not supposed to touch it... 
...the prosecution rests your Honour. 
Despite this, I have seen any answers to the question some of us are asking about the difference between a sparky changing a fitting, and a competent D.I.Y'er changing the same fitting using all the due care and attention it requires.

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## apricotripper

> The simple answer is N-O-T-H-I-N-G-  
> No matter how much we debate it, as fun and enjoyable as it is, and how ridiculous some of us think the laws are, the fact of the matter is you're not supposed to touch it... 
> ...the prosecution rests your Honour. 
> .

  Like hell it does. 
Doesn't rest because people break it and will always break it. And there motivated to do it. Cause tradesman generally are a rip off......' I deeeserve the money ! cause, unlike everyone else.........I had to live at home with my mum,,,,and endure her having to wash me skid marks off during my apprenticeship.....and her great cooking. Probably the healthist time of my life, be gee it was hard !'  
If you don't want people to break it, you better group together and push for more enforcement. Uno, a serious chance of getting caught and maybe some jail time.  :Eek:  . Don't like your chances but goodluck. First might be a good idea to try and make it illegal for electrical parts to be purchased by anyone else but an electrician.

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## silentC

> And they're motivated to do it.

  And by all you blokes who tell them it's ok, they wont get caught and they wont kill themselves! 
It's not a matter of whether I want people to break the law or not. Already told you, I don't give a rats what you do. I think it's irresponsible to encourage people on a public forum to break the law, which is what _you_ are doing.

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## MrFixIt

> My electrician friend was recently called out to check and finish of a job after some wiring work had been done by the homeowner.  
> He saw that some of that wiring was behind plaster and some in conduits, because he couldn't see and inspect all the wiring he refused and quoted on replacing all the wiring already done by the homeowner. 
> As his quote wasn't accepted he reported the matter to the Office of Electrical Safety, as he was required to do, and the same day the power company disconnected the supply because of illegal wiring. 
> A full and complete inspection and certification by an electrician was required to get the power back on. Hence no cost savings. 
> Peter.

  ..and JUST HOW is THAT inspection going to happen if electrcians like your friend cannot see or inspect the wires? 
...if an electrician did the wiring in the same way does that mean it is ok? 
There are "cowboys" in every industry and the electrical trade is NOT exempt. 
I have been told, though have not witnessed, that electricians now just chase the wall and insert the cable directly WITHOUT conduit. I do not know how true this is.

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## MrFixIt

Hi 
A PRIME example of a "COWBOY" electrcian occurred at my place some years ago. 
We had garden lighting installed in the front garden. The lights were powered by a very large 240 > 12v transformer. 
The landscape gardener doing the garden and the lights employed a FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED to install the wiring to the new lights. 
The electrician moved a sliding window shutter so that he could install the wiring through flexible conduit to the "potable" (ie buried underground) transformer. I came over to see the progress and instantly saw his error! He then tried to moved the shutter back. Ahhh? the window shutter hits the conduit  :Doh:  Mistake number 1, though not dangerous. 
The SAME FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician installed a sensor to actrivate the garden lights at night time. 
The sensor does require THREE wires. Active, neutral and the trigger wire that powers on the potable transformer. (No earth connection required as the sensor is double insulated) 
Did he (the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician) run two red wires and a black wire? NO WAY! Why on earth (pardon the pun) would he run wires like that when he has a perfectly capable three core mains cable  :No:  He could then use the red and black to power the sensor and run the return power throught the THIRD cable - it *DIDN'T MATTER TO HIM  that the third cable is coloured GREEN AND YELLOW!!!*  :Shock:   
Not only did he (*the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician*) do this *ILLEGAL* wiring, he *DELIBERATELY* went to great lengths to *HIDE this illegal connection*. Mistake?? number 2, DEADLY  :Shock:   
Hmmm? I wonder why I treat some tradespeople with contempt. It is and has been a well known fact around here (and I assume elsewhere) that GOOD tradespeople, of ANY trade, are very hard to find. 
All too often I find that any tradespeople that I use - usually because of my own time constraints - have to be watched or monitored to make sure they do their job properly. It is NOT just me that feels this need, all my neighbours feel the same, they cannot just expect the job to be done properly otherwise!  _Yet another example of poor tradesman ..._ 
I have a 6 > 10m extension ladder that I occasionally "break out" to trim a tall garden palm. It's a PITA to drag it out and extened it up to about 8-9m to trim the palm. I also find it difficult to access some of the palm leaves without taking down and again putting up the ladder. 
I am slow at pruning the palm as I only use a small pull saw. I get the job done, but I detest doing it. 
I succumbed this time (without protest  :Biggrin:   ) to using the same "tree guy" that was doing my neighbours palms. He seemed to do a good job. However a week or two later he had to come back. He did NOT cut the seed pods properly and had "knicked" one of the palm leaves with his chainsaw and this leaf was now hanging down  :Doh:   
The list goes on..... 
I therefore *STILL* advocate that **IF** you can do it yourself and have the knowledge and capability then YOUR work could very easily be better than these so called "tradespeople" (tardypeople?).

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## silentC

No-one is saying that every trademan that holds a license is on the ball. I'd be the last person to say that - especially after the Cowboy thread I posted a couple of weeks ago. 
There are also plenty of unlicensed Cowboys running around. I bet a lot of them think they are pretty good at fixing things, too. I used to meet a few of them when I was renting in Sydney. 
As far as I can tell, no-one has argued that the work of a DIYer might not possibly be better than the work of some licensed tradies. 
But your *IF* is a pretty big one. How do you know that you have the knowledge? You might think you do, but how do you know you do? If you haven't done the training and sat the exams, how do you know you know? People keep saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Maybe your _knowledge_ is 20 years out of date and based on half understood theory and watching bad tradesmen. Have you read the wiring standards? Have you read the testing and inspection standard?

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## NCArcher

> Hi 
> He could then use the red and black to power the sensor and run the return power throught the THIRD cable - it *DIDN'T MATTER TO HIM that the third cable is coloured GREEN AND YELLOW!!!*   
> Not only did he (*the FULLY QUALIFIED and LICENSED electrician*) do this *ILLEGAL* wiring, he *DELIBERATELY* went to great lengths to *HIDE this illegal connection*. Mistake?? number 2, DEADLY

  I'd just like to piont out that it is not *illegal* to use the third core in the cable as long as the core is sleeved with an appropriate colour (usually red, white or any active colour heat shrink) at either end.

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## wonderplumb

> Check again! You might be the plumber, but I'm the trailer specialist.
> The regulations for building small trailers here in Australia are a National code for doing so and are applicable for trailers with a GVM of 1 to 4500kg. The only item that requires an Australian Standard is your coupling, and your drawbar is supposed to be able to cope with longitudinal and lateral stresses calculated from the carrying capacity. I say "supposed to", because as long as it looks like it might do the job, there is no test done for it, and it will usually pass registration. Unless you've made it from Balsa wood... but Hey, there's nothing in the reg's to say you can't! 
> The national regulations for towing trailers is 1.5 times the unladen weight of the tow vehicle (or the manuf'rs maximum), so you'd only need a 3000kg tow vehicle with the right tow hitch (A 90's model Discovery can tow 4000kg and an 80/100 series L/Cruiser 3500kg). 
> Joe Blow can build you a trailer in his own back shed, with no experience and no welding skills, he buys his axles with brakes, spring set and coupling from a trailer parts supplier rated to do the job, and that trailer can be registered up to 4500kg with little or no problem at all! And certainly no scrutineering other than to see if the lights work.

  Sorry mate I stand corrected I was on a different train of thought in reference to trailers................
Just for the record Im not here taking personal shots at anyone, Im not trying to keep certain trades a "closed shop" but am merely trying to state the fact that its illegal, and if Tafe wants to run a course so you can do basic wiring or water plumbing, PROVIDED its inspected by an INSPECTOR from the respective authorities then by all means gun it. Its just a shame that theres heroes out there that Think they know it all and go ahead and do such jobs, and I have seen some pretty nasty work done by these types of  people with some costly results.

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## apricotripper

> And by all you blokes who tell them it's ok, they wont get caught and they wont kill themselves! 
> It's not a matter of whether I want people to break the law or not. Already told you, I don't give a rats what you do. I think it's irresponsible to encourage people on a public forum to break the law, which is what _you_ are doing.

  Meeeee !........how bout  Yooooooooou !....... A few pages back you encouraged the public to jaywalk !.....remember ..... :No:  tut tut. have you no shame ? you of alllll people.  
You've probably killed someone already. Some blokes probably read your thoughts on jaywalking and instead of crossing properly at zebra crossings like he'd always done, has jaywalked instead, and been cleaned up by a bus !  :No:   goodness gracious.

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## Tas_Dean

> I'd just like to piont out that it is not *illegal* to use the third core in the cable as long as the core is sleeved with an appropriate colour (usually red, white or any active colour heat shrink) at either end.

  I think you will find AS300:2000  prevents sleeving an earth wire. Any other colour yes, but not earth. Prior to the 2000 revision you could sleeve an earth, but not since. Someone with a copy of 3000:2000 might clarify that for us. 
Yonnee, the rules for caravan wiring stood long before the 2001 revision. Somewhere around here I have a copy of the 1993 revision, or did have. I'm not saying that that's not what you were told, but the rules certainly have been around for a fair while.   

> So, even with the entire house dead, and the pen registering it as dead, you'd still fiddle about trying to get the wires in the terminals without ever touching the exposed wires ? ...

  No stuffing around required. That's what long nose pliers are for.

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## Yonnee

> Just for the record Im not here taking personal shots at anyone,...

  Neither am I mate. :2thumbsup:  All for a good healthy debate.

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## Yonnee

> Yonnee, the rules for caravan wiring stood long before the 2001 revision. Somewhere around here I have a copy of the 1993 revision, or did have. I'm not saying that that's not what you were told, but the rules certainly have been around for a fair while.

  I realise there's probably been some sort of reg's since the old SEC as I recall seeing SEC stickers on some older caravans windows, but as for what we were training for was using a plug-in tester that showed whether a GPO was wired correctly, and if it wasn't, it was better if you didn't touch it... BUT... If you _had_ to make it safe... 
It certainly wasn't a recommendation for complete re-wiring of an entire Caravan.

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## another termite

> I'd just like to piont out that it is not *illegal* to use the third core in the cable as long as the core is sleeved with an appropriate colour (usually red, white or any active colour heat shrink) at either end.

  According to the Australian wireing rules *3000:2000 rule 3.8.2* *green/yellow, Green or Yellow colour insulated conductors shall not be sleeved to indicate live conductors*

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## apricotripper

> No stuffing around required. That's what long nose pliers are for.

  right.  
Well, I seen a couple of electricians roll the tip of unsheathed wires in there finger tips after just turning the mains power off....to get the job done faster. Professional looking blokes. Been there , seen everything sort of bloke.  
Another bloke. younger bloke this time,,,,used a voltage tester light, then did it as well.  
So they were being reckless eh ?

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## silentC

> So they were being reckless eh ?

  Yeah, and the mongrels probably jaywalk too. 
It's a steady decline into anarchy when you start twisting wires with your bare fingers. Not to mention rough on the fingertips.

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## Honorary Bloke

There's a word that describes this thread, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Silent, can you help out? Is the word inane?  :Wink:

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## silentC

I don't know but I bet zeroseven wishes he'd never opened his mouth!! 
If it's any consolation, zeroseven, these threads always end up this way. Some of us can't help ourselves.  :Biggrin:

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## zeroseven

> I don't know but I bet zeroseven wishes he'd never opened his mouth!! 
> If it's any consolation, zeroseven, these threads always end up this way. Some of us can't help ourselves.

   :Smilie:  I was expecting a couple of replies along the lines of you can do X but certainly not Y.  But this is much more exciting with people getting into a good old fashioned healthy debate about it. 
I'm still waiting for someone to argue the reasons for not being able to do your own plumbing because it could go horribly wrong and the house could, err....float away...or my tiles could get wet.  I'm sure there must be far more serious reasons or the law wouldn't be in place, would it?

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## silentC

I think the main reason is because you are connecting to utility services, like the water main and the sewer main. There are also sanitary issues - someone fiddling with sewerage who doesn't know what they're doing can cause serious health problems. And then there is gas. 
But as I've said, I think safety has relatively little to do with the situation concerning electrical work and I think it is the same for plumbing. 
I tried to find legislation covering people doing their own plumbing work in their own house but couldn't. I don't think it's as clear cut as it is for wiring. Could be it's legal in your own house, I'm not sure. That's why I haven't really gotten into that debate, hoping others would know.

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## Gra

> I. There are also sanitary issues - someone fiddling with sewerage who doesn't know what they're doing

  Can end up in deep s??t

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## chrisp

> I'm still waiting for someone to argue the reasons for not being able to do your own plumbing because it could go horribly wrong and the house could, err....float away...or my tiles could get wet.  I'm sure there must be far more serious reasons or the law wouldn't be in place, would it?

  Oh, there are lots of reasons - slow leak behind the wall damaging the structure, mixing up sewage and storm water, etc. 
I think all these reasons wear a little thin after awhile as a lot of us have seem leaks from work done by licenced plumbers.  It's a bit like the don't touch electrical stuff or you'll risk killing yourself or people - sounds reasonable in theory but in reality the perceived risk seems to be way out of proportion to the actual risk. 
I think most people here are the types who take pride in their work and will try and do a good job - especially on their own house.  The trick is to ensure that the "system" is such that the appropriate information and training is available and accessible.

----------


## silentC

> leaks from work done by licenced plumbers

  When you build a house, the plumber is required to pressure test all the lines, so there _shouldn't_ be any leaks. I don't know if that is true for extensions of existing work though. But like electrical, plumbing work is self-certified. Our council inspection of the plumbing consisted of whacking bungs in the sewer lines and filling them up with water. He came along and saw there was water in the top of the pipe penetrations and that was good enough. Didn't care about the water or gas.  
The gas requires a compliance plate, which includes a license number. They're not supposed to let you connect bottled gas to a service that doesn't have a current compliance plate - I assume it's the same for town gas. You would need to have a licensed person inspect it and provide the compliance plate if you did your own. The guy who installed our regulator is the same guy who delivers the gas. We still don't have a compliance plate!

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## zeroseven

Gas, I can totally understand.  I wouldn't think anyone in any country is legally allowed to have a fiddle with gas. 
But if I want to take out my old kitchen sink and put in a new one there is nothing that can go wrong, it doesn't matter that I'm connecting to a utility service or that the sky today happens to be blue.  I cannot mix up storm water, sewage water, soapy water or holy water. 
However if I want to install a new toilet, in a brand new position, then this is totally different. 
It seems that one rule covers all which in most life situations just doesn't work. 
Electrical work - The one rule covers all applies as well.  You have the extreme, how the UK used to be, where anyone could come along and rewire their entire house with nothing but some old cable and four brain cells.  But I believe they've recently changed to allowing basic electrics, light switches/sockets.  Then for more, presumably higher risk jobs, having you pay for an inspector to come in to certify your work.   
I'm far from certain about the current laws, just happened to be searching the Collins DIY book, which is printed for the UK market, at the weekend in Dymocks and so has all of the new laws for electrical work in there.

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## silentC

> It seems that one rule covers all which in most life situations just doesn't work.

  What I'm saying is that I don't know what the rule is, I couldn't find it. All the regulations I have seen regarding plumbing concern what license is required to do plumbing work commercially. I can't go and install a new sink for you because I'm not licensed. As far as I know, I can't charge you to change a tap washer either, for the same reason. 
I couldn't find anything that precludes you from doing things like that in your own house. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I just couldn't find it. 
If you have time, try looking through the legislation section of the NSW State Government web site. While you're there, you can have a look through the *Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act*.

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## chrisp

> When you build a house, the plumber is required to pressure test all the lines, so there _shouldn't_ be any leaks. I don't know if that is true for extensions of existing work though.

  I'm not sure either about "existing work" being pressure tested.  When I refitted my laundry I had the plumbing redone as it was previously on the surface of the internal walls (ugly).  I stripped the walls and had a plumber redo the plumbing (with new taps and fitting).  It all looked okay but a day or two I noticed a slight wet patch on the floor.  I think you can work out the rest.  I redid or retightened one of the connections and the leak stopped.  Of course I checked the other connects he did as well. 
I'm not too concerned about this as anyone can make a mistake.  But it does get up my nose a bit when plumbers claim that DIYers won't do it right.

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## apricotripper

> Yeah, and the mongrels probably jaywalk too.

   :Biggrin:  I don't know. But you definetly do. You admitted it AND you said it publicly.........AND you said it a encouraging way......AND as you well know, what we say can get people killed.......  :No:  Its ILLEGAL silent !......its just so staggering that you just don't get it YET .    

> . Not to mention rough on the fingertips.

  oh, your poor fingertips.  :Rolleyes:  .  
Well you better take a grasp of this situation Silent. PRONTO. I've seen 2 electricians do it that way. Just imagine how many out there would be doing it.....that could be killed if they continue with such an unsafe method. Better make a few calls eh and put a stop to it. 
And you'd better get one of the moderators to delete your coments on jaywalking while your at it, if you haven't already done so........Your comments have already killed one bloke. Just imagine the guilt you'll feel if another jaywalked on your encouragement.  :Eek:  :No:   honestly...

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## pharmaboy2

> But it does get up my nose a bit when plumbers claim that DIYers won't do it right.

  As an aside, i've never come across a holier than though plumber or electrician that doesnt recognise that DIY work goes on, nor do they seem to care.  the leco I had in the other day, just said, there isnt enough lecos in the country to come close to been able to install all the GPO's, swithc replacements, new lights etc -. 
Its only on forums it would seem that I have ever struck a restricted trade that gets uppety about it - now just maybe they aint so uppety in the real world, as typing on a computer gives you the option of arguing for the sake of arguing, and also not with someone who maybe paying your wages that day!   :Wink:  
As has been said, gas is a no brainer - stuff it up and really and truly people can get killed rather easily, but as has been said for the rest, its no different to bricklaying, carpentry, concreting - they can alll just as easily kill people as lektrickety and water (?)!

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## silentC

> AND you said it a encouraging way

  Now you just go back and read what I wrote. Bet you can't find anywhere that I actually advised anyone that they should go ahead and break the law by jaywalking. I said I do it, I said that it was illegal and people get fined for it. But nowhere did I say "you should do it if you think you have the ability". Huh? Huh? Got you there...

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## bennylaird

How many times do we have this type of thread? Like politics and supporting Collingwood, we will never get agreement.

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## Howdya do that

Pizza anyone???

----------


## mick101

> As has been said, gas is a no brainer - stuff it up and really and truly people can get killed rather easily

  What do you think happens when you dont check a neutral correctly ? Or a DIY'er thinks that he can check the neutral correctly with 3 phase with going from supply to neutral with the 3 fuses in ? Whilst i dont fool with gas at all..in the very least you get the chance to maybe smell it unlike a poor neutral thats ready to let go. 
Stuff up a neutral & you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand at bed time.

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## mick101

> Pizza anyone???

  Yeah get another 12 on the way.

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## chrisp

> Stuff up a neutral & you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand at bed time.

  That is a rather emotional response.   
Exactly what kind of tooth brush are your kids using?  The ones I've seen are battery operated and recharged using an inductive (non contact) charging caddy.  The older ones with cords would are at least double insulated (there should not be a problem with an earthed one).  I can't see any problems with the old manual ones :Rolleyes: .   
Just how is it that "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem?

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## mick101

> That is a rather emotional response.  
> Exactly what kind of tooth brush are your kids using? The ones I've seen are battery operated and recharged using an inductive (non contact) charging caddy. The older ones with cords would are at least double insulated (there should not be a problem with an earthed one). I can't see any problems with the old manual ones.  
> Just how is it that "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem?

  Again i rest my case. What do you think happens in an house hold elec cct when a neutral fails ??? If you cant answer that without blinking then you should not be touching house wiring what so ever.

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## chrisp

> Again i rest my case. What do you think happens in an house hold elec cct when a neutral fails ??? If you cant answer that without blinking then you should not be touching house wiring what so ever.

  Mick, 
Don't hide behind the "if you have to ask..." comment.   
Please explain the tooth brush theory of yours.  I'm truly interested in your logic or reasoning :Biggrin:   
Chris

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## Tas_Dean

> Mick, 
> Don't hide behind the "if you have to ask..." comment.   
> Please explain the tooth brush theory of yours.  I'm truly interested in your logic or reasoning  
> Chris

  Nothing to do with the toothbrush at all, that was just his scenario.  
Do you turn the bathroom tap on when you brush your teeth???

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## mick101

> Nothing to do with the toothbrush at all, that was just his scenario.  
> Do you turn the bathroom tap on when you brush your teeth???

  They are not thinking that far ahead mate.

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## silentC

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=14723   :Smilie:

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## chrisp

Tas_dean and mick101, 
You are still not answering the question. 
Please explain your scenario and how it ends in a fatality.  Otherwise I suspect you are just talking crap. 
Come on:  The kid has a tooth brush, let's make it electric,the tap is turned on.one hand on the tooth brush, or brush in their mouth,other hand in the water...Now, you explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem.

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## mick101

God help us all if they ever allow any level of DIY'ers. You guys just cant be told...but you all want to save some dollars 'eh ? Dont worry about not understanding how a basic household MEN system works & its relation to keeping your family alive...its that pesky red wire thats the only one that you think kills anyway 'eh ? ...you need to save money, thats all thats important. 
Im gone again ...someone else can have my pizza.

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## chrisp

> Dont worry about not understanding how a basic household MEN system works & its relation to keeping your family alive...its that pesky red wire thats the only one that you think kills anyway 'eh ? ...you need to save money, thats all thats important.

  I've got a fairly good understanding of the MEN system.  I'm just asking you to substantiate your claim in your scenario.  It's not too much to ask, is it?

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## mick101

> I've got a fairly good understanding of the MEN system.

  No you dont...you just proved it in writting mate...not having a chop at you but if you dont know what im talking about (any 1st apprentice year house sparky should) then you are the perfect example of why we are so flamin' ???? scared of any industry deregulation. 
Thats really it this time...heat the pizza up for someone else.

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## Vernonv

Mick, you seem to be spending a lot of time NOT answering the question :Rolleyes:  .
I also would be interested in the answer. What's wrong with educating the electrically inept? Do you think the answer will some how encourage us to rewire our entire house?

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## chrisp

Mick, 
The only reason I keep replying to this thread is that I think what you have posted is alarmist. 
If you can explain a scenario that can end up with the results stated then please do. 
If not, please retract the alarmist comment. 
I'm out of here for now - I've got to go.

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## Tas_Dean

Have a look at page four of this document, issued by Workplace Standards Tasmania.  http://www.wst.tas.gov.au/electricit...ulletin4-6.pdf 
Edit: Page one explains a bit too!

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## chrisp

> Have a look at page four of this document, issued by Workplace Standards Tasmania.  http://www.wst.tas.gov.au/electricit...ulletin4-6.pdf 
> Edit: Page one explains a bit too!

  Yep, I understand that loosing the Earth-Neutral bond bit and how it results in tinkles. 
But, walk me through the scenario:The kid has a tooth brush, let's make it electric,the tap is turned on.one hand on the tooth brush, or brush in their mouth,other hand in the water...and explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem.

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## thatirwinfella

chrisp, here's an answer. 
assume the house doesn't have an rcd [many still don't] and that the toothbrush is a plugin, not battery powered. if the neutral wasn't connected, the only possible return path for current would be through any exposed metal of the toothbrush [unlikely that the brush is either metallic or plugin]. the metal is hence inside the kids mouth, right near the brain. it's wet. so there would be a reasonable current path into the kids mouth. the path continues down the arm to the tap or water. the water going down the drain, or the pipe will be bonded to earth at somepoint. this completes the current path. 
the kid now receives a belt through the mouth, possibly causing brain damage. this overload will only stop if the current racing through his body [and the rest of the circuit] exceeds the rating of the breaker or fuses. there is a longer time delay for fuses too. this kid has now recieved a fair amperage to his brain. also through his chest, lungs and heart. there will be sever burns to his hands and mouth.  
this faulty neutral could have been anywhere within the circuit, swithboard or even the toothbrush itself. 
even if there was an rcd, the kid will still receive a belt of 30mA, which while not considered enough to normally kill an adult [it's around 300mA i think, severe injuries would still occur] the situation [a kid in wet circumstances getting a belt to the head and chest] could still cause death. 
does that answer your question? 
chrisp, you probably know my feelings enough on the bulk of the topic so i won't delve into that, there are pages enough of my ramblings.

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## bricks

here's your answer ( one of many scenarios). PS im a plumber. 
In a house it is entirely possible that electric current through earth leakage can travel down through water pipes (and sewer aswell if is lead or gav.) 
This current is present in all the water pipes when there is a earth leakage present and the house - as in all old houses and some new ones- is earthed through the water. 
Why- sparkys used to earth all houses through the water because the water would eventually go to ground ( street mains).
Now they are supposed to use an earth stake or something. 
If there is an earth problem in your house, your power board may not trip. 
If you touch the taps (connected to water supply and earth) you may be an easier path to ground than the rest of the water supply, you will become the earth for your house, you will get shocked. 
As i understand it is difficult to test for an earth that is still going to ground, but in a way other than intended. The end result is the same. 
What is worse than this is if the current goes through you and then back to the electrical system.
- why - because then there is no earth fault and the rcd wont trip. 
If you don't follow this then i suggest the most you should do is lick a 9volt battery to see if its charged.Apparently that will hurt you so dont really do it.

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## Cauterise

> Yep, I understand that loosing the Earth-Neutral bond bit and how it results in tinkles. 
> But, walk me through the scenario: The kid has a tooth brush, let's make it electric,the tap is turned on.one hand on the tooth brush, or brush in their mouth,other hand in the water...and explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem.

  I suspect the kid would only get to level 2, and that would be with an ordinary plastic Oral B! 
As for tinkles - tinkles may sometimes be a warning, but in this scenario, at its worst, the kid would still be hanging on to the tap with his/her teeth chattering. The path, for those interested, has nothing to do with the toothbrush but is a circuit from the metallic tap, through the body to earth - in this case, probably bare feet and a damp floor. Carpet might slow it down somewhat and result in the tingle.

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## Dirty Doogie

I've spent all afternoon reading this thread from the beginning.  I'm a renovator and lay  much of my own wiring but generally get a sparky to wire up fittings etc. 
I've just looked at the wiring diagramme on the tas.gov document -- UM --* Surely running an earth wire to a water pipe is incredibly stupid ???!!!!???* 
A few houses ago (3 years ago) I found such an earth connection and as I was going to get a new box put in I got the sparky to remove the connection. He didnt seem one bit surprised that the earth was running through the water pipe. 
DD

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## Cauterise

I was trying to think of cases involving tingles - how's this: 
Electrician who worked for the Hydro Electric Commission in Tas in the '80s, walking into a substation yard was feeling the tingles in his feet (through his boots). Turned around and walked out, reported it. His supervisor thought he was skiving, so came for a look and also felt the tingle - turned out to be a fairly major fault and defective earth protection. Very lucky boys, the substation was carrying 110 000 volts (or 220 000, can't recall, but it was a main substation dealing with transmission from the Hydro dam down into Hobart).

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## Cauterise

> I've spent all afternoon reading this thread from the beginning. I'm a renovator and lay much of my own wiring but generally get a sparky to wire up fittings etc. 
> I've just looked at the wiring diagramme on the tas.gov document -- UM --* Surely running an earth wire to a water pipe is incredibly stupid ???!!!!???* 
> A few houses ago (3 years ago) I found such an earth connection and as I was going to get a new box put in I got the sparky to remove the connection. He didnt seem one bit surprised that the earth was running through the water pipe. 
> DD

  Incredibly smart - an earth bond is required on the water pipe and forms part of the earth protection (MEN system). Basically, the earth system protects you from the scenarios above - ie live tapware, sinks etc. The idea is that fault current passes to earth and trips the circuit protection. If you don't have a good protection system, then the current will pass through you to earth.

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## bricks

Crisp. 
As a master plumber, gastfitter and builder in S.A. i recieve a magazine published by the OTR called regulation roundup.  
Here is a PDF file of the latest issue http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov...RR19_Apr07.pdf 
Look at page 4, and page 6 for the technical explaination of what can happen. Notice on page four the there doesn't even need to be an earth fault for the shock to occur, too much resistance can make it happen along with other things.  
Eg you do your own conversion from one light globe to 4 or 6 downlights- the draw on the power is roughly the same but the resistance is multiplied by 6 or more due to the voltage drops and so forth ( remember im not a sparky). The DIY peanut thinks he's ok coz he's using less power but in fact he's designing a system that can easily fail in the newish ( 60's-70's)super dooper mens system of earthing.  
Hope this acces to new and correct info doesn't make you over confident. 
Look on page 6 as to how many people are shocked in one month by tap ware or other items connected to water supply, or roller shutters or T.V sets or what ever. 
Ps : just incase your curious : if you lick a 9 volt battery- it tastes funny, dont do it.

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## Dirty Doogie

Hi Cauterize, 
Do they still earth to waterpipes on new builds?   
DD

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## Cauterise

> Hi Cauterize, 
> Do they still earth to waterpipes on new builds?  
> DD

  If you take a look at the link from Bricks, you'll see a fairly good diagram of a residential system. But, in short, yes, there must be a bond to the water pipe in the house/installation as well as the earth electrode.  If a new installation is inspected, it is one of the first things an inspector will look for and check. Also, if an electrician makes changes to an installation, they are required to bring the installation up to current standards.

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## apricotripper

> Now you just go back and read what I wrote. Bet you can't find anywhere that I actually advised anyone that they should go ahead and break the law.. .

  Nor have I directly advised anyone to break the law. But I've certainly hinted of it sure..... in exactly the same way you did when you mentioned jaywalking.............same thing.....don't remember exactly.....but you said something like.........'shyt yer I jaywalk' 
Just like you, I couldn't give a rats ???? how you cross the road. The point I'm making is.........The laws position is irrelivent. Whats really important is  you looked for bloody cars before you crossed.  
The laws position is irrelivent (can't spell that) on electrical and plumbing work as well, because its just not enforced enough to make a difference.  
Everybody knows that you won't get in strife with the law if you do it yourself. You can buy all you need to do most repair work yourself from freekin mitre 10 for christ sake. You know doubt can find  step by step instructions over the internet on how to do it even. I'm not going to change a thing by reveling my thoughts on the matter here.  
How are you going to stop people doing it anyway ?......by saying ' *you can't do that. Its illegal'*  
Whilst some go ->  :Eek:   ' oh ????, I better not do that then ! .  :Eek:   god what would the neighbors think.. :Eek:  ' ....... :Rolleyes:   
I would say the vast majority have a bit of think about it........shake their heads and think .....' what a load of bullshyt'....and go ahead and do what they feel they can do anyway.  
I've always had a problem solving sort of mind. I have a relatively low salary, and with the incredible cost of tradesman(sorry fellas, but its true. your a rip off, and some of you do worse a job than I would).....no law enforcement, easy access to parts.. there's just no way in the world I won't attempt what I can. And clearly I'm not alone.

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## bricks

<TABLE class=tborder style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100&#37;" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2>10th Aug 2007 07:38 PM</TD></TR><TR title="Post 563843" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>apricotripper</TD><TD class=alt2>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">     
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> 
I've always had a problem solving sort of mind. I have a relatively low salary, and with the incredible cost of tradesman(sorry fellas, but its true. your a rip off, and some of you do worse a job than I would).....no law enforcement, easy access to parts.. there's just no way in the world I won't attempt what I can. And clearly I'm not alone.    
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> 
yet as we see in this thread quite clearly, some people who do their own work don't have much of an idea what they are doing at all. And are causing dangerous situations because they won't admit it or don't know how wrong they are. 
As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses. 
Between post number 176 and post number 181 I have been able to go and find relevant upto date information on electrical installations and the mens system, as i said before I'm not a sparky. I am however a tradesman this tells me a few things. As a trades man....
I know if something doesn't sound right
I know how to interpret standards a regs
I know where to go and who to ask about subjects involving current requirements.
I don't just go and pigheadedly do something because i think it's ok.  I have enough respect for the lives of others not to break the law. 
Your post MR apricotripper has basically cemented my resolve for what i must do. Everytime I do a job, I submitt a COC form. 
On that COC form is a section for Faults found, Everytime I do a job where i think the home owner has done some DIY work I'll write it in that section and send it off noting all possible infringments in that service. That way it will be noted and must be signed off by a liscenced trade. 
When a fault is noted on a COC that fault goes on to public record, when you try to sell your house it will be noted in the incumberances section of What we call a form 1 here in S.A. ( notes boundarys, problems, easements and incumberances) The new owner will have to have all incumberances fixed within 12 moths from date of purchase, or not buy your house.  
That way you DIY maniacs can kill youselves, your wives, your kids, your mother in law.. but no one else has to be messed around by your dodgy unsafe practices.  
Think it's time for a collective spanking from all the tradies out there who worked hard long and for no money to be good at their job. 
Obviously if you think you can do it to a standard thats better than a tradie then do it i won't be able to tell the diffence coz i won't look anyway coz im counting my money.
Because i have to pay my petrol, insurance, workcover, income protection, liscence fees, material suppliers, cover people who don't pay, by materials for the next jobs, get the van serviced, replace tools, pay for the pex Gas training, pay master plumbers association, spend and hour and a half at night doing paperwork, keep ahead of gov regs for small business.  
At the end of the day I make about $1000 a week before tax and im almost always owed money. If i do a bathroom reno for $15,000 and some cheesy nob decides not to pay me, i dont make two bucks to rub together for that quarter.
$1000 bucks a week, pay tax lump sum every three months, no sickies, holidays, super, redundancy, etc,etc..... get the picture.

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## chrisp

Dear gentle reader, 
Why have I been so cocky in challenging mick101 (and tas_dean) over the scenario proposed?  Because I know they can't explain it because it cannot happen without another fault being present at the same time.  As much as they can claim that I don't, or couldn't,  understand - I do.  It is they who can't explain what is happening. :Rolleyes:   
It is interesting to see that they have left it to a plumber to try and explain - what a joke.  (no offence Bricks, but this really isn't your playing field). 
Let me explain what they can not. 
Firstly, they are talking about a failure of the "neutral" but what they are trying to say is a neutral-earth bond failure.  Have you noticed in older switchboards have a "neutral bar" and at one point (and one point only) the neutral is bonded to the earth (have a look next time you are near an older switchboard).  This is the multiple earthed neutral (MEN) system we use in Australia.  The neutral is connected to earth at each household or installation. 
As part of the system, the plumbing is also bonded to the neutral.  Why, because due to resistance in the neutral wiring, it is possible to develop a small potential difference between neutral and earth.  This small differece can lead to unpleasant tingles if, for example, you were to touch the (earthed) body of a washing machine (connected to neutral via the electrical earth) and also touch a tap (connected to earth via the plumbing).  Note, these are small potentials, a few volts - a bit like the 9V battery on the tip of your tongue  - not 240V. 
So, if you get tingling when touching your washing machine and a tap, it is sign that there may be a fault with the eath neutral bonding and it ought to be checked.   
With the "tooth brush" scenario with a "neutral" fault- the worst that could happen is using an earthed (class 1) tooth brush, the child might experience tingling while using the earthed tooth brush while holding there hand on the tap, or under the flowing water.  I have never seen a class 1 (i.e. earthed) tooth brush in my life!  The tingling, in this case, while unpleasent, would not be fatal. 
The only plug-in tooth brushes I've seen have been class 2 - double insulated - i.e. no earth.  The tingling would not happen as there is no earth (via the tap) to neutral (via the protective earth) path.  With a doulde insulated appliance, it doesn't really matter what fault happens inside the tool, there is no connection with either the active, neutral (or earth) to the outside of the appliance.  Tingling might happen between the floor (assuming bare feet, wet floor, conductive floor) and the tap - again this would be unpleasant rather than fatal. 
This is why mick101 can not explain how "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand" because of a neutral problem.  It can't happen without another problem being present at the same time. 
BTW Bricks you have no idea who I am, so don't be too quick to judge.  I'm more than happy to explain my reasoning and logic and put it on display for public comment.  All I was doing was asking mick101 to do the same.

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## apricotripper

> ..... get the picture.

   :Biggrin:  yep. your going to stop being so efen nieve expecting to get results by saying ........' its illegal '......... and your going to attempt something thats probably not going to change a thing in the long run . Your wasting your time. But good luck ! I like it when people do what they believe in.  
It doesn't matter what you do , your not going to make a difference are you whilst the law isn't properally enforced (its probably unrealistic to expect it to be) AND you can buy the parts.  
but , all the best........ :2thumbsup:

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## Honorary Bloke

Quoting Bricks: "As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses." 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Counting on a lot of repeat customers are we? I would have thought a quiet word in the ear would be best, along with a recommendation. I hope you own your own business, because if I were your employer I might be tempted to have a quiet word in *your* ear.  :Smilie:

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## Cauterise

> Dear gentle reader, 
> Why have I been so cocky in challenging mick101 (and tas_dean) over the scenario proposed? Because I know they can't explain it because it cannot happen without another fault being present at the same time. As much as they can claim that I don't, or couldn't, understand - I do. It is they who can't explain what is happening.  
> It is interesting to see that they have left it to a plumber to try and explain - what a joke. (no offence Bricks, but this really isn't your playing field). 
> Let me explain what they can not. 
> Firstly, they are talking about a failure of the "neutral" but what they are trying to say is a neutral-earth bond failure. Have you noticed in older switchboards have a "neutral bar" and at one point (and one point only) the neutral is bonded to the earth (have a look next time you are near an older switchboard). This is the multiple earthed neutral (MEN) system we use in Australia. The neutral is connected to earth at each household or installation. 
> As part of the system, the plumbing is also bonded to the neutral. Why, because due to resistance in the neutral wiring, it is possible to develop a small potential difference between neutral and earth. This small differece can lead to unpleasant tingles if, for example, you were to touch the (earthed) body of a washing machine (connected to neutral via the electrical earth) and also touch a tap (connected to earth via the plumbing). Note, these are small potentials, a few volts - a bit like the 9V battery on the tip of your tongue - not 240V. 
> So, if you get tingling when touching your washing machine and a tap, it is sign that there may be a fault with the eath neutral bonding and it ought to be checked.  
> With the "tooth brush" scenario with a "neutral" fault- the worst that could happen is using an earthed (class 1) tooth brush, the child might experience tingling while using the earthed tooth brush while holding there hand on the tap, or under the flowing water. I have never seen a class 1 (i.e. earthed) tooth brush in my life! The tingling, in this case, while unpleasent, would not be fatal. 
> The only plug-in tooth brushes I've seen have been class 2 - double insulated - i.e. no earth. The tingling would not happen as there is no earth (via the tap) to neutral (via the protective earth) path. With a doulde insulated appliance, it doesn't really matter what fault happens inside the tool, there is no connection with either the active, neutral (or earth) to the outside of the appliance. Tingling might happen between the floor (assuming bare feet, wet floor, conductive floor) and the tap - again this would be unpleasant rather than fatal. 
> ...

  I'll back the opposing point of view - forget the toothbrush, a neutral fault condition can cause a fatality in the absence of 'another problem being present at the same time'.   
I'd also ease up on Bricks - he's demonstrated that he can find, interpret and apply regulations in an area he's had no formal training in - something I'd like to see in everyone who is seeking to undertake their own electrical work. This would result in less people being burnt to a chrisp. 
Since you've put it out there, who are you? (this is fun isn't it?) Me? well I'm degree qualified and I have a current electrical licence. I've worked in three states, one territory and overseas. My old man was a sparky and I've been in and around the game for over thirty years (24 in my own right).

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## chrisp

> I'll back the opposing point of view - forget the toothbrush, a neutral fault condition can cause a fatality in the absence of 'another problem being present at the same time'.

  Back them all you like - but explain to us why you are backing them. 
Mick101 put up a scenario - he chose the tooth brush example and claimed with a neutral fault "you can find your kid dead beside the bathroom sink with the bloody toothbrush still in their hand". 
If we need to "forget to toothbrush" to come up with a plausible scenario, then please explain. 
All I'm asking is mick101 to back his claim by explaining how it happens, how the potentials are developed and the approximate level; and what the current path is. 
I'm quite well qualified in these matters, but I don't need to hide behind my qualifications and make remarks something like "you won't understand".  I'm happy to put my reasoning in my posts, if you agree with Mick101, then why don't you explain what might happen in the "toothbrush" scenario - or are you introducing another scenario where are fatality might occur? 
thatirwinfella has come closest to a reasonable explanation to the scenario, but we have to assume quite a few "ifs" if we are to make a fatal current path and I question the level of the potential between the tap and an earthed toothbrush (ever seen one?) is enough to cause a fatality without another fault being present.   
Redo the scenario with a (much, much more likely) double insulated toothbrush and it is an extremely remote possibility, one that is right up there with the probability of being abducted by aliens.

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## Cauterise

Perhaps you should read a previous thread.  http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=14723 
In this instance, reading between the lines, seems to me that you are a very balanced individual - ie you have a chip on each shoulder. You seem determined to argue your point to a standstill, possibly because you don't have a licence, have no prospect of getting one, can't legally wire anything and want to test your theoretical knowledge against that of people who have a licence, have experience and know what they're doing. If I were you I'd stick to sitting behind the computer, or whatever it is that you do and leave the nuts and bolts to others more capable than yourself.

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## MrFixIt

Hi 
This has and continues to be an interesting thread  :Smilie:  
Discussions are now getting a little out of hand - aproaching the "name calling" level. I (and I hope others) would like to see the ettiquette and manners remain positive - please  :Smilie:    

> As of today I have decided that no longer will I accept that home owners will do their own liscenced work, regardless of safety, code conformance and general laws in this country. If I see it i will report it- I see it all the time- and it's just dawned on me that theese things are endangering my life everytime I have to do work at one of these houses.

  Ok, but how will you know that the work was NOT done by a tradie? I have seen very rough jobs performed by a number of various trades, including electrical AND plumbing trades. I have not considered them to be "tradesmen". 
I don't know if the regualtions have changed, but many years ago it was ok for a plumber to do gasfitting, but a gasfitter could not do plumbing? So it was safe for a plumber to have a leaking pipe and "drown" people with a VISIBLE substance, but it was not ok for a gasfitter, responsible for the prevention of the "leak" of a NON visible substance, to work with water.     

> As a trades man....
> I know if something doesn't sound right
> I know how to interpret standards a regs
> I know where to go and who to ask about subjects involving current requirements.
> I don't just go and pigheadedly do something because i think it's ok.

  I don't think anyone here is advocating "pigheadedness" in performing electrical (or other) work. 
In many (all?) of my posts in this thread I have stated that *IF* the DIY'er is comfortable with and knows what they are doing then they can do it them selves. 
If they DON'T know what they are doing then I would expect them NOT to do it! There is no harm in asking what to do and / or HOW to do it. If ACCURATE advise is given and adhered to then there is still nothing wrong (other than it being illegal) for a COMPETENT DIYer from doing their own work. 
The original poster (see what you started  :Biggrin: ) asked "what am I allowed to do" ok, we have resolved that the answer is nothing! So what.  
A compentent DIYer, especially one from the UK where they (generally) KNOW from experience what they are doing, can/could STILL do the work - their choice.   

> I have enough respect for the lives of others not to break the law.

  I have enough respect for *MY OWN life* as well as the lives of others, that's why MY work, legal or not is equal to or BETTER than that of the tradesman whose job I am doing. 
I would like to think (hope) that other DIYers on this forum do the same.    

> Your post MR apricotripper has basically cemented my resolve for what i must do. Everytime I do a job, I submitt a COC form. 
> On that COC form is a section for Faults found, Everytime I do a job where i think the home owner has done some DIY work I'll write it in that section and send it off noting all possible infringments in that service. That way it will be noted and must be signed off by a liscenced trade. 
> When a fault is noted on a COC that fault goes on to public record, when you try to sell your house it will be noted in the incumberances section of What we call a form 1 here in S.A. ( notes boundarys, problems, easements and incumberances) The new owner will have to have all incumberances fixed within 12 moths from date of purchase, or not buy your house.

  So you could just very well corrupt the sale of a property for the poor quality work of an unknown tradesman!   

> That way you DIY maniacs can kill youselves, your wives, your kids, your mother in law.. but no one else has to be messed around by your dodgy unsafe practices.

  Who is to say that we are DIY *maniacs*? Members of this board are sensible enough to be either capable of DOING the job or having enough sense to have the job done by a professional.   

> Think it's time for a collective spanking from all the tradies out there who worked hard long and for no money to be good at their job.

  I think the reverse is true, it is time for the tradies to be spanked by TOO MANY mislead, misquoted ($), overcharged, missed appointment, never turned up, botched job, poor quality, ripped off (YES! RIPPED OFF) consumers. 
The rates charged by trademen now (with a building boom) are excessive. Why? because they KNOW they can get it! Sure it's supply and demand - but they sure do cry poor when the circumstances are reversed. 
I know of an instance where a $2000 rendering job was quoted at $5000. Another quote was sourced. The second quote was about the same but the "quoter" could not start  in the required time frame. On approaching the person that provided the original quote to do the job, he NOW quoted an *extra $1000* basically because he could! 
Tradesmen should also have a MORAL standard.

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## boban

> Perhaps you should read a previous thread.  http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=14723 
> In this instance, reading between the lines, seems to me that you are a very balanced individual - ie you have a chip on each shoulder. You seem determined to argue your point to a standstill, possibly because you don't have a licence, have no prospect of getting one, can't legally wire anything and want to test your theoretical knowledge against that of people who have a licence, have experience and know what they're doing. If I were you I'd stick to sitting behind the computer, or whatever it is that you do and leave the nuts and bolts to others more capable than yourself.

  
Perhaps you should ease up on the ridicule and explain what it is you are talking about.  You two guys just avoid the technical question and sling mud.   
Again you are not playing the ball. 
BTW chrisp is an electrical engineer.  If you want to debate then do so.  It seems to me that it is the last thing you want to do. 
Go on, answer the question with your technical expertise without reference to Journeyman Mick's thread.  I am seriously interested in the answer. 
While you are at it, why don't you also answer my previous post genius.

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## apricotripper

> $1000 bucks a week, pay tax lump sum every three months, no sickies, holidays, super, redundancy, etc,etc..... get the picture.

  Just re-read your post .......and I dont give a shyt !  :Biggrin:  ....  you know why......cause I only make $550 a week, and no doubt I'd work as hard, if not more than you (and yes, I know your a builder). I work in a joinery, and I'm ????ed at the end of the day. Hands ache from shifting timber all day. cuts and splinters .......its just horrible bricks. Just horrible  :Cry:   
So, bricks , your just winging to me.  
Maybe you just need to get laid. a loving lady. Works for me. After a bit of nouke, alls good. Have to be better than a tooth brush.  
I can understand you've got frustrations in life......but you must know that we've all got them.  
So what are the odds do you think of being killed or injured , everytime you turn up at a job, from previous dodgy work ?........do you really know ? 
And your chances, isn't described by just quoting how many people died during a certain period. Population is very important I'd say in statistics isn't it ? Convientiently it seems to be always discounted to make a situation look worse . 
Wouldn't be surprised there's overconcern on it all anyway when somebody really finds out the true odds......(that you've probably got more chance of dying from jaywalking afterall....eh Silent  :Biggrin:  (could be your next signature....jaywalking hippocryt (can't spell that)...that be funny. Would you do it just for me for a laugh.. go on :Wink:  )

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## Cauterise

> Yes, but you know I was talking about single phase and was making a point about what could be discussed and further that education was the key. It was merely an example I used to make a point. That view however might not be as convenient to your criticism however. 
> And just as you like being smart, is the blue phase (a bright blue) found in the company of the brown active, or is it found in the company of the white and red phases.  
> I think you have proved my point about people just waiting for something to jump on. 
> I think you should play the ball. Not that I even understand what you mean by that food chain statement. 
> Having read the balance of your post, it appears that we are in agreement about getting the correct information. As I've said before and you've repeated, its readily available from Standards Australia. 
> The funny thing is, I don't even need to do my own electrical nor do I have to pay for having someone do it. 
> I don't know why I even bother posting on this forum. Perhaps I'm being a big girl, but someone should just ban me and put me out of my misery. See ya.

  
Hey Boban, welcome back - missed your incisive views on stuff. Thought you'd thrown in the towel and left the forum - hence didn't reply. 
Seems you missed a bit while you were gone, thanks for pointing out that Chrisp has a degree - As I stated, I've got one of those too. They come in handy occasionally. Don't mean squat though if you can't back it up. Fortunately, mine is of the type that Chrisp's isn't - namely, one that gives me the right to wire my own house.  
As for my reply to your earlier post (see above): 
I liked your bit about "bright blue", but if this is all you've got, then you're extremely lucky that you have no need to wire anything or pay anyone to wire anything on your behalf (live in a vacuum do you?) 
As for knowing you were talking about single phase - no, I thought we were talking about residential/domestic installations and what you can do legally - just as many three phase out there these days. Incidentally, I raised your bit about blue neutrals as a means of trying to educate people to think about what they are doing - read the rest of my post.  
As for the answer about neutrals - seems like I have to spell it out - a line side neutral fault will produce the condition in the example. Broken neutral definitely, reverse polarity probably, but likely to be detected before coming to that. 
As for my crack about the food chain - sorry mate, but basically I meant that I believe there are smarter Krill out there. Wikipedia probably contains a good explanation of what Krill is.

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## bricks

Hey boys, just like to start by saying that i don't like being moderated , it makes the threads look messy, perhaps we could just take it back a notch and continue a disscussion.  
Id just like to point out a problem with the toothbrush theory which nobody has bought to the disscussion yet.  
The toothbrush is irrelevant.  
Fatal current can be received simply from the tapware and pipework in a house by itself. eg taps to ground. You don't need to touch a power socket to be killed by an earth fault. An example of this is here http://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov...RR07_Apr01.pdf _on page nine in green box_  _Another warning is herehttp://www.technicalregulator.sa.gov...RR15_Apr05.pdf_ _on page 7_ 
Why is it that even reletivly low voltage or what ever can kill you, its because we worker bees wear rubber soled safety boots. Theese boots provide a resistance of electricity finding ground through your feet. this means that you can cut a pipe, touch both ends, and compleate the circuit. If this happens the RCD won't trip because you havnt earthed the problem you've just become a part of the circuit.  
Regardless of what anyone thinks about DIY wiring and plumbing the fact is you can be killed from your taps only, with the mens system installed you can get earth problems from too much resistance in the line, and a switch that doesnt work could be an indicator of an earth problem in the mens system. 
Stating my position- I don't care if homeowners do there own work
I do care if unliscenced people carry out work for others- mates or customers
I really do care if home owners don't know what they are doing and make something dangerous.

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## Wood Butcher

> Close this thread up now.

  OK. :Cool:  
Some of the post are getting a little bit too personal and vindictive.

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