# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Halogens CFLs and LEDs..... OH MY!

## Armers

Had the sparkie though tonight, chatting about rewireing the house up... I am just sitting here drawing up a rought diagram of what i want where...  
When we came to the discussion of lighting, i would like downlights. He mentioned tonight when i said i want CFL downlights saying they're going to disappear soon and there not worth it. Now I know LEDs are not the best at this point in time and he confirmed that too.. He said just go halogens, they're going to be around for a good 4-5 more years. He also did mention that since the partner and i are only going to be spending a shortish time here (5 or so years) then halogens are fine. 
So i am now stuck on what i want  :Frown:  Anyone care to chime in and help me out? I mean we installed CFL's albeit cheapies at my folks place they they look fine... I've not personaly seen any other brands though.  
Anything else anyone wants to add please be my guest!   :Cry: 
Armers

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## Bloss

Halogens!  :Confused:   :Frown:   Your sparky is about as wrong as can be.  
See here: Phase-out of Inefficient Light Bulbs - Home page  
From 1 November 2009 ALL lights sold in Australia MUST meet minimum efficiency performance standards - and most of the cheap downlights won't and don't.  
See also here for the  reasons: http://www.energyrating.gov.au/libra...cent-lamps.pdf 
So what do you do? CFL's are the least cost alternative - the real answer is that downlighting is a very inefficient way of general lighting - and expensive relative to any fluoros (CFLs or regular - which come in various shapes and sizes too) so have a good think about where you want the lighting and unless you really need downlights(which are actually narrow focussed spotlights even the widest 60 degree ones) use lights that are on the ceiling (or on the walls) not in it! LEDs are the way of the future, but are still too dear for good ones and the cheaper ones are not good light sources. 
Your sparky is offering what is cheap and easy for him - you pay the energy bills which are doubling every 5 years. To get the same light effect with downlights often requires 3 or 4 or more as many lights as is needed when better choices are made. Nearly all will be 30W or 50W - while an equivalent CFC will be around 11W.

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## China

I have18 watt CFL downlights in my lounge/ sitting /living room what ever you want call it, I have 8 of them and can use either 4 or the full eight I have more than enough light

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## Master Splinter

The new Cree 10 watt LEDs put out about the same amount of light as the 50 watt halogens...but they'll cost ya' $60 each not including transformer or fitting.  If you are only there for five years, I'd go for CFLs.

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## elkangorito

I fully agree with Bloss. 
It sounds like your sparkie either;
1] doesn't know what he's talking about or,
2] got stuck with a truckload of halogens that he needs to unload. 
Change sparkies immediately.

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## Armers

Right, as i thought... I think i am going to go the CFLs. I was more then happy to pay a little more for them anyway. Well i think i was. Lol..  
Now for the rough out of the lighting, is there a forumlar or a way of working out how many lights you need or is it just random placements? I've got a clipsal book here but for example in a 5 x 6 room it recommends 16 cfls... thats huge! 
Also any particular type of cfl? does someone recommend a brand or type, or are the clipsal gu10 240v mains ones ok? 
Cheers again folks

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## Vernonv

I am just in the process of installing CFL downlights. They are 13W GU10 (240V) types and cost about $10 each (fitting and globe). 
I am running them in banks of 2 so that I can adjust how much light I need. I am using the following formula for the spacing - 1m from the walls and 2m spacing. This layout seems to be working well at the moment and can be adjusted depending on how much light an area needs. 
I may look at putting 9W GU10 CREE LED globes in a couple of the lights in the kitchen, but the will cost about $30 a pop.

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## Armers

> I am just in the process of installing CFL downlights. They are 13W GU10 (240V) types and cost about $10 each (fitting and globe). 
> I am running them in banks of 2 so that I can adjust how much light I need. I am using the following formula for the spacing - 1m from the walls and 2m spacing. This layout seems to be working well at the moment and can be adjusted depending on how much light an area needs. 
> I may look at putting 9W GU10 CREE LED globes in a couple of the lights in the kitchen, but the will cost about $30 a pop.

  
Where from and What brand you putting in? I like the sound of 10ish for the light fitting / globe.  
Cheers
Armers

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## president_ltd

i agree with others above.  your sparkie seems to have things 100% the  wrong way around.   

> Where from and What brand you putting in? I like the sound of 10ish for the light fitting / globe.

  don't know what fittings *Vernonv* is refering to but we have these almost everywhere in the house, which are edison screw (ES): Fixed CFL Downlight Fitting Round (Large)@::@Light Fittings@::@Lighting@::@EnviroShop 
with 13W CFLs there is sufficient lighting in the lounge (approx. 4m x 6m), 3 of them in the kitchen (probably close to 4.5m x 5m).  i.e. not like halogens where its more like spot lighting and you need lots of em. 
you can get 'em at pretty much all lighting shops. i.e. cheaper than the above link.

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## Armers

> with 13W CFLs there is sufficient lighting in the lounge (approx. 4m x 6m), 3 of them in the kitchen (probably close to 4.5m x 5m).  i.e. not like halogens where its more like spot lighting and you need lots of em.

  Is three enough to light a room? At my folks place we've got 6 15watters in a 6 x 4 mtr room and it seems to be enough... this is warm light screw in CFLs.  
With those thoughs i've come up with a rough in plan for the electrical work. Have i gone over board?   
Make me bigger! 
I've also marked the power points for him as well, is there anywhere people recommend to put extra sockets? I've got the basic three for the bedrooms, three sets in the loungeroom, i've got extras in the cupboard where my comms / tv equipment / alarm is going... We're not talking outdoor socket just yet, nor are we walking outdoor lighting other then a downlight above the front door.  
Cheers folks... you've been great! 
Armers

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## Vernonv

> Where from and What brand you putting in? I like the sound of 10ish for the light fitting / globe.

  These one's - 13W Energy Saving CFL White Fixed Down Light Downlight - eBay, Down Lights, Lighting, Fans, Home. (end time 10-Apr-10 20:53:19 AEST) 
They are no-name chinese, but fitting quality seems fine, light quality is good (once warm) but don't know about globe life as they have just gone in.

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## Smurf

> I fully agree with Bloss. 
> It sounds like your sparkie either;
> 1] doesn't know what he's talking about or,
> 2] got stuck with a truckload of halogens that he needs to unload. 
> Change sparkies immediately.

  Strongly agreed with all of that. 
Least efficient = halogens. These are the only type of downlights that would foreseeably banned and for which you wouldn't be able to get replacement globes for the foreseeable future (other than anything which needs a special globe made by only one manufacturer who might stop making them etc). 
Medium efficiency - CFL. Not even any talk of banning these and it's not a serious option for government to do so, at least not until LED's are well established (ie years away). 
Highest efficiency - LED.  
If you're going for CFL's and want the "warm" light that halogens give then get "warm white" or "830" (or 827) CFL's.  
If you want the stark "office white" type of fluoro light then get "cool white", "white" or "840". 
If you want that bluish colour that approximates daylight then get "daylight" or "860" CFL's. 
The above comments regarding light colour also apply to conventional fluoro tubes as well as CFL's.

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## president_ltd

> Is three enough to light a room? At my folks place we've got 6 15watters in a 6 x 4 mtr room and it seems to be enough... this is warm light screw in CFLs.  
> With those thoughs i've come up with a rough in plan for the electrical work. Have i gone over board?

  IMHO, yes.  i think you could halve the number of downlights   seems you have them at 1m spacing.  i think you could easily stretch that out by 2x distance, probably even 2.5x.

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## Armers

ok changed it a little... dropped two out of the Lounge, one out of the Larger Bedroom and two out of the smaller one... should be fine... I am going to keep two in the bathroom... nicer to have a brighter bathroom.  
I am liking the idea of leds in the kitchen... I could change them all to LED in the future as well, so i think i am going to go down the same bath as Vernov nothing wrong with an ebay deal*.* 
Is there anywhere anyone suggests a power point? other then the obvious spots? 
Cheers

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## GraemeCook

Good Morning Armers 
Have a look at the following table that ranks the efficiency of various light sources. Lighting Efficiency Comparison 
Basically - 
*  Incandescant globes are the least efficient
*  Halogen globes are marginally more efficient than incandescant. (Say 30%)
*  Compact fluoros and white LEDS are about the same efficiency (say 400%)
*  Long fluoro tubes are the most efficient. 
To this you must deduct the efficiency of the reflector - the wide light source of fluoros is hard to focus with a reflector. 
Next time you are in a good lighting shop discuss the difference between home and commercial lighting - commercial reflectors tend to be much larger. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## Smurf

> To this you must deduct the efficiency of the reflector - the wide light source of fluoros is hard to focus with a reflector.

  Many years ago there were fluoro tubes with a buit in reflector. Looks like a normal tube but all the light comes out one side.  
They disappeared a couple of decades ago however so presumably the idea didn't catch on with consumers.

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## autogenous

_The new Cree 10 watt LEDs put out about the same amount of light as the 50 watt halogens...but they'll cost ya' $60 each _ They will last you 10 times more/longer than any of the other environmentally poisonous light globes._  _ They also use a fraction of the electricity of any of the other lights as well.When energy gets even more expensive beyond its cost now people will be even more considerate considering they pay bucket loads for down lights now. 
They wont set your insulation/house on fire either.

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## watson

*Just a Note:*
There's now a new section on  *LIghting* in the Library.
Any ideas for additions are welcome.

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## Billy22Bob

So are any of these "non-halogen" alternatives economic if you factor in dimming functionality? 
Halogens can at least be dimmed down (cozy lighting) and to save some power (not all of course).
I installed 50 odd cheapie halogens on 5 circuits recently on dimmers - at minimum brightness they still allow you to see (cozy) and power consumption is down 70% on each active going into the dimmer. Of course that's still a Sh#t load of power for the lgith you get, but plan was to have them wired and when LED technology is cheap, diammable and "cozy" I'd change them over. 
Also - I dont think LED's are as efficient as CFL's since it depends on the Lumens/m2/watt - LEDs tend to be a more focused light (lower angle of dispersion) so when normalised, their Lumens/m2/watt at the same distance is slightly lower. Also you need to compare these bulbs at 2500K colour temperature too - CFLs and LED loose quite a lot of efficieny at these K's. 
b22b

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## Armers

I chose the CFLs in the end, the way i combated the "cozy" mood was in the lounge room have the 4 llights on two switches. to give me the 50% lighting i wanted. Because the area is in an open plan we don't have to have all 4 or 8 or how ever many i end up with in that section turned on all the time.  
I am happy with my choice. I've seen CFLS work well, as have many people here I just pray the GU10 socket hangs around for many years yet! 
Cheers
Armers

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## jago

Armers. 
I understand your sparkies point about going the halogen route if you only plan to stay 5 years or so; CFL's are doomed as they are a hazard for councils to dispose of and not many are buying them (according to my local lighting shops), lightning manfacturers are putting their eggs in one basket L.E.D, halogens produce a nice light and spread (35watt wide beam) but cost a fortune to run and they are also outdated, both will be around for 5 years or so. 
So go with the light colour you like the best, personaly I cannot stand the colour give off by either L.E.D or CFL way too cold.

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## Armers

Thanks for your comments Jago... I have chosen the CFLs in the end. I am ok with the light given off by these globes.. Over the next couple of years hopefully LED's become decently priced so i'll change them over then.  
Cheers
Armers

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## president_ltd

> Armers. 
> I understand your sparkies point about going the halogen route if you only plan to stay 5 years or so; CFL's are doomed as they are a hazard for councils to dispose of and not many are buying them (according to my local lighting shops), lightning manfacturers are putting their eggs in one basket L.E.D, halogens produce a nice light and spread (35watt wide beam) but cost a fortune to run and they are also outdated, both will be around for 5 years or so. 
> So go with the light colour you like the best, personaly I cannot stand the colour give off by either L.E.D or CFL way too cold.

  your comments may have been correct 3 or 4 years ago when the only CFLs you could get were cold-white.  that hasn't been the case for at least that long. 
furthermore you're thinking that CFLs aren't widely used seems counter to everything i have observed here in melbourne. 
LED is not yet "warm while" in any meaningful way and the light dispersion of them is similar to halogens - very 'direct' lighting.  no doubt that will change over time. 
suggest you have a read of Your Home Technical Manual - 6.3 Lighting

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## autogenous

_I may look at putting 9W GU10 CREE LED globes in a couple of the lights in the kitchen, but the will cost about $30 a pop. _ How long does a CFL globe last in reality? How many times will you replace them over 5 years? 
How much does a CFL globe cost? 
How long does a CREE LED last?People spend a motza on downlights and the transformers.Im still questioning the poisons and emissions associated with the production of CFL globes.

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## Armers

I bought a Unit (actual downlight body) and globe for 9.99 a whole package from ebay... Been trying out a globe in a GU10 socket i have light is warm and not a cold white.  
CFL Globes claim 10000 hrs... I've seen a screw in CFL blow but it blew within 30mins of buying it new. So i assume a DOA globe.  
The globes themselves cost little to nothing.  
As for the CREEs they're about 30 a globe, as for how long, i do not have any figures for you sorry but i have 50000 hours in my head.... Which comes too 50000 hours / 6 hours usage a night = ~8333 nights / 365 days = ~23 years or so?  
Cheers
Armers

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## jago

> your comments may have been correct 3 or 4 years ago when the only CFLs you could get were cold-white.  that hasn't been the case for at least that long. 
> furthermore you're thinking that CFLs aren't widely used seems counter to everything i have observed here in melbourne. 
> LED is not yet "warm while" in any meaningful way and the light dispersion of them is similar to halogens - very 'direct' lighting.  no doubt that will change over time. 
> suggest you have a read of Your Home Technical Manual - 6.3 Lighting

  So having read the link you posted  still haven't learnt anything that I didn't know already .... its a typical government non descript document. My opions on CFL's are from observations and also conversations with the wholesalers up here who have to put CFL's in the sale bin to get people to buy them. I still say they will be redundant as quickly as Halogens due to LED's... :Wink 1:

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## Master Splinter

There's a swag of LED information here: Solid-State Lighting: CALiPER Program

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## autogenous

LEDs are now arriving with a wider angle as well. 
I have a few CFL's which have blown within a few months.  They are the most commonly switched on and off.

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## president_ltd

> LEDs are now arriving with a wider angle as well. 
> I have a few CFL's which have blown within a few months.  They are the most commonly switched on and off.

  here are our statistics:
  November 2007: purchased 38 CFLs, mix of ES and bayonet fittings, majority 9W some 7W and 13W 
  ~2.5 years later: 1 has blown. 
took that blown one back to the store it was bought from as the CFL globe manufacturer was offering a 10 year replacement warranty on any that did not last 10 years if we kept the receipt.

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## jago

I love your dedication to the promotion of a semi redundant system, I note that CFL's shouldn't really work that well in Melbourne seeing as it's below recommeded temps in Autumn and winter, do you have to put the heating on for your lights to work ?.Lol  :Wink:

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## Vernonv

In relation to downlights: 
1. If you don't want to use energy inefficient halogens and can't afford LED's, you either get CFL or live in the dark. 
2. Once LED's come down in price you could easily swap out the CFL's for LED's without changing the fitting. 
3. If you don't like the colour given off by CFL's then you obviously haven't looked at all the colour range options available for CFL's.  
Now I concede that there are disadvantages to CFL: 
1. Disposal - there are issues there, but the same could be said for most electronic devices (possibly LED's also ???). Hopefully this will be somewhat mitigated by the claimed extended life of CFL's 
2. Warm up - it can take 30 to 60 seconds for the CFL to reach full brightness. This may just be a personal thing.

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## president_ltd

> I love your dedication to the promotion of a semi redundant system, I note that CFL's shouldn't really work that well in Melbourne seeing as it's below recommeded temps in Autumn and winter, do you have to put the heating on for your lights to work ?.Lol

  "Jago",
i am happy to engage in an informed discussion.  if you don't wish to, thats fine, i can use 'ignore this user' as much as the next guy.  i'm just a happy consumer that has NOT had to replace any CFLs and don't see any of the 'issues' you state.  i'm happy to give advice on this forum based on my experience. 
i look forward to LEDs being able to used in the manner i would like them to be, but at the time the LED products weren't yet at the stage where they could do the same thing.
i still don't think they are, although we do have LEDs in a few places, e.g. LED lightbars under overhead-cupboards in the kitchen and laundry and pool light.

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## Wombat2

I've just ordered a 9W (3x3W) LED replacement for a halogen down light to see how it compares. We have 15 12volt downlights that have just all been replaced - I wanted to keep the 12 volt system with the view to going to solar/wind power in the future. (Used to live on a 110v 2KVA windplant that produced more power than we could use 85% of the time) 
Our downlights consist of 3x 1 light, 3x 2 light, and 2x 3 light, circuits - so if the trial works out OK I'll progressively replace the bulbs with the LEDs  http://cgi.ebay.com.au/9W-3x3w-CREE-...#ht_4275wt_939

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## president_ltd

> I've just ordered a 9W (3x3W) LED replacement for a halogen down light to see how it compares.   9W (3x3w) CREE XR-E LED WARM WHITE DOWNLIGHT MR16 - eBay, Down Lights, Lighting, Fans, Home. (end time 08-May-10 11:08:58 AEST)

  i'd be intereted to hear how 'warm' that light really is. 
the datasheet for what i think are the LEDs in this (CREE | XLamp XR-E LEDs, leading the revolution in lighting) indicates that Cree call 'warm white' anywhere between 2700K and 3700K. 
i'd say 2700K is, but to me 3700K is starting to look a little too clinical for me.  curious that they are not specific as to what colour temperature it is.  maybe it varies with heat or as it warms up??

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## Wombat2

Put the 9Watt LED in last night - first impressions are that it is not as bright - about 75% of a 50 watt halogen - much softer (warmer?) light and a wider more diffuse spread, not a concentrated spot like the halogen. On the energy meter it pulls 25 watts compared to a halogen pulling 60 watts - would be transformer losses there  and it would be interesting to run more off the one transformer to see if that figure would improve per fitting.  Still we like it and next one we get will be a cool white to see if it looks 'brighter'

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## watson

Just got this in the mail (email) today.
Just passing it on FWIW. K284NOTES.pdf

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## watson

Sorry ...forgot to Include where from. Oatley Electronics
$12.

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## Andy T

Have been researching down-lights for a kitchen reno for task lighting above a "L" shaped 3.6m X 2.1m bench-top and 1.7m breakfast bar.  LED's seem to be getting better but for a dedicated fitting close to $100 each, fairly pricey. 
I have 250v 50W G10 halogens in the hall which I would never use again. I am considering 12v 20W or 35W IR halogens as well as CFL G10 down-light fittings (11-15W). 
Better half loves the "sparkley" look of halogens - I am trying to convince her that CFL's may be better. 
Any feedback on recent installations of CFL down-lights above kitchen bench-tops would be appreciated and what sort of brands, wattages, spacing and beam spread would be best.
 cheers Andy :Confused: 
I am also mindful of running cost and even with say 8 20W IR halogens running, that is over 300w of energy for lighting one room

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## Standard

LED and Flouro need a chimney to dissipate heat. No fire risk but fittings will overheat if covered with insulation. 
Halogens are inefficient in comparison to these fittings but the energy losses through air leakage are vastly increased. 
Heating and Cooling = 40-50% of an Aussie property. 
1 x 90mm downlight vents 4 cubic meters of air per hour.  
Air pressure and weather has the potential to increase this to 20 cubic meters per hour per light. 
Do a Google search on Air Leakage, LED and Flouro isn't energy saving its swallowing the marketing and paying $30 a globe on top.

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## Armers

ooo this is still going... Good to see people are discussing the ins and outs I am all for interesting conversations! Thanks for all the info folks, but as i mentioned earlier i've made my choice! 
Keep the debating clean!  
Cheers
Armers

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## Andy T

I am currently looking at the Jupiter 4 CFL downlight. I would be interested to hear any feedback on these. Slightly bigger hole (97mm cutout) but have in built heatshield and due to side mount CFL can run standard ES globes to 20W. I have seem them in action and they seem to be a better light than the smaller downlights that take GU10 globes

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## Armers

We installed the Jupiter4s into my folks house, they look good and product a nice light. Pretty much installed in the rear half of the house. Lounge Family Room Hallway and Laundry. Nice warm light.  
Cheers
Ben

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## Andy T

Thanks Ben - what sort of spacing would you suggest. Given 2.4m ceiling height and 900 high benchtops the distance of 1.5m is not too much. I was thinking of somewhere between 1 and 1.5m apart should be OK for the kitchen.

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## Armers

I don't know much about spacing and things like that... We've got 6 in a 6 x 4 mtr room which give a nice reading light.. I don't know if i would prep in that light... So personaly i would put maybe 8 the equivelent space for a kitchen. See how you go.  
Cheers
Ben

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## atregent

I bought a 6W (3 x 2W) dimmable GU10 LED globe off ebay as a test. It was definately as bright, if not a little brighter, as the 50W halogen that it replaced. 
Cost $50, so the inital outlay is quite a lot more, but for a 50,000 hour lifespan, that only comes to $1 per thousand hours, and only 6W compared to 50W. I'll definately be looking at slowly replacing all my downlights with them.

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## Wombat2

Now have 4 of the 9W LED's mentioned above - in cool white. Very happy with them - so is the wife - she likes the 'whiter' look in the kitchen. They are running at 25 watts each due to the transformer losses but I have a new 'electronic' transformer designed to run up to 5 of these lights - I will install it tomorrow and see what effect it has on the power use.

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## Wombat2

Don't believe it  :Shock:  With this transformer MeanWell ELN 30watt LED Transformer for LED Downlight - eBay, Down Lights, Lighting, Fans, Home. (end time 12-Jul-10 13:39:50 AEST) the  3 LEDs on the one circuit pull 10 watts total - on their own with the old halogen transformers they pulled 25 watts each

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## bigblue

Hi all, 
What irritates me about compact fluros is that they take so long to warm up and that they,re* so* white!!
LED"s are the way to go and if you have halogen downlights now, you dont even have to change the fitting. Expensive suckers thou. Biggest problem with LED's is that they barely throw a shadow at ground level........ 
Halogens give the best light but they cost a squillion to use. 
They've all got there good points but LED will be the way to go...... I think !! :Biggrin:

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## Cheltenham3192

We're delighted with our LED's (dimmable Crompton's).  The light is warm white, and they are very bright.  We've put each row on their own dimmer, and in the evenings with one person reading and another watching TV, we've found that one row of four, dimmed, is enough. 
Our electrician suggested warm white for interior downlights and cool white for outdoor downlights.  So we have CFL cool white downlights in our verandah.  The light is very even and looks good.

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## Melanie B

Halogens are being phased out and wont be available for too much longer. 
We replaced some halogens with Brightgreen DR700 retrofit LED downlights and the are great - good light source, not even a noticeable difference to halogens. Will start to replace all the halogen globes with the DR700s as they are already saving money on electricity. Would recommend to anyone. 
Check them out: DR700 Retrofit | Brightgreen

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## LinesElectrical

> Halogens are being phased out and wont be available for too much longer.

  I would be interested if you could direct me to a reliable source of this statement. 
Because even thought the new Buliding codes have a max 5w per m2 this only applying to the builders in new homes and extensions once they hand it over you can do what you like and they fall into a category of task specific lighting even if they are not used for this purpose whitch makes them exempt from the filament lighting rules. 
Also the new generation of energy efficent globes are essentially a halogen encapsulated in a bc fitting.

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## johnc

> I would be interested if you could direct me to a reliable source of this statement. 
> Because even thought the new Buliding codes have a max 5w per m2 this only applying to the builders in new homes and extensions once they hand it over you can do what you like and they fall into a category of task specific lighting even if they are not used for this purpose whitch makes them exempt from the filament lighting rules. 
> Also the new generation of energy efficent globes are essentially a halogen encapsulated in a bc fitting.

  I think it is only non reflector low voltage halegon lighting that is being phased out, at this stage those dreadful 50W compact heaters doubling as down lights are still safe.

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## Melanie B

> I would be interested if you could direct me to a reliable source of this statement. 
> Because even thought the new Buliding codes have a max 5w per m2 this only applying to the builders in new homes and extensions once they hand it over you can do what you like and they fall into a category of task specific lighting even if they are not used for this purpose whitch makes them exempt from the filament lighting rules. 
> Also the new generation of energy efficent globes are essentially a halogen encapsulated in a bc fitting.

  
There is some info on it here:  Details of the phase-out - Think Change 
Some halogens are still safe, however I would recommend avoiding all halogens as well as CFLs. Go LED downlights. 
M

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## johnc

All halegons are still safe and will remain available, it is only incandescents that are being phased out. Personally I'd just ban the 12V halegon down lights for a number of reasons but at the moment there are no plans I am aware of to end production of them.

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## mike_perth

For obvious reasons Im not going to say which lighting store I part own but......get Halogens - I have the luxury of bringing home and trying any lamp I wish to use with whichever fitting I choose and I am yet to find a LED that looks/performs/can be dimmed nicely/will one day pay itself off to be worth it seriously go halogen for at least the next 5 years then maybe LED could be a good alternative to halogen - you just cant beat the look or feel of halogen - yes they have their issues ie heat, loss of light through reflector etc. Ive just finished my reno and I have halogens and the suppliers were willing to give me whatever lights I wanted for free.

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## autogenous

Ive been looking at LED bar lights. Preferably 3 per fitting.  Reason being so the LED lights can be focused at areas the light is needed. 
Down-lights to me, are relatively inefficient as a system of light and in the past misunderstood as a power efficient system when they quite often at that time consumed 40 watts per fitting with 12 globes in one room.

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## mike_perth

In that situation LEDs are great - thats exactly what LED does really well focused light great for the edge of decks, around bulkheads, in kitchen kick boards. 
I certainly have LEDs in my deck and an LED pool light as they are there for their colour not for their huge light output etc.

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## Alastair_N

> I have the luxury of bringing home and trying any lamp I wish to use with whichever fitting I choose

  Hi Mike,
Would you be able to share which LED bulbs you have trialled? While I do value your advice, I still wish to look into LEDs purely for the energy savings (I'm a greeny) but want to find a good one.
Thanks.

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## Master Splinter

There are cheaper LED suppliers than Brightgreen - try - Trend Lighting Co. - Miniled XDA13  - uses the same LED as the Brightgreens but it's half the price. 
Oh, and halogens aren't being phased out, they just have to meet minimum efficiency standards. Details of the phase-out - Think Change 
Also note that Brightgreen seem to have a bit of a reputation for undisclosed self-promotion on forums - see the comments at:  Brightgreen D900 series LED downlight - C-Bus Forums  and  Brightgreen Dimmable LED Downlights Cont - C-Bus Forums and not to mention the final comment in this thread - Brightgreen Dimmable LED Downlights [Archive] - C-Bus Forums 
 - so make your own mind up on the sort of company you want to do business with.

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## rod1949

> We replaced some halogens with Brightgreen DR700 retrofit LED downlights and the are great - good light source, not even a noticeable difference to halogens. Will start to replace all the halogen globes with the DR700s as they are already saving money on electricity. Would recommend to anyone. 
> Check them out: DR700 Retrofit | Brightgreen

  In my house I have in excess of 50 downlights all being 12 volt 50 watt halogens (MR16's). Like Melanie, a few months ago I took the plung and brought 12 DR700's (cost $650) to try them out resulting in a further even deeper plung and brought a further 48 DR700's (cost $2,200 including delivery Perth). These DR700's are the same lumens as the old MR16's. The DR700's have no heat like the dangerous MR16's. The DR700's fit in the MR16 holder and there is no need to change the transformer. They also have a buy back scheme after 15 years of service at 12 hours use per day... well none of mine will be running for 12 hours per day so they should last a very long time. That this stage I'm very happy. 
Some further info;  I brought both lots from the Sustainable Group in Victoria.  When I went back to them for a price on the second lot (48) I was told I would be priced on the second generation.  I thought how am I going to know what generation there is or what I would be getting so I rang BrightGreen themselves and was told of the alphanumerical code on the back of each light, so the first generation will have WM11111B followed by more number and the next generation will have a WM1203C followed by more numbers.  It is the "B" or "C" that determines which generation.  My first lot all have the "B" and the second lot all have the "C".  Just something to be aware of.s 
I also contacted a couple of lighting shops here in Perth to see if they had them and could supply, I also told them what I was getting them for delivered Perth to which they phoned back to say they could not buy them wholesale for the price I was getting them for.   
Regards
Rod in Perth

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## watson

Thanks for that follow up Rod.......... :2thumbsup:

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