# Forum Home Renovation Doors, Windows, Architraves & Skirts  Aluminium Window into double brick wall

## dingdong

Am placing an ally window in a double brick wall where there is no hole - appreciuate any advice.
I have done wooden framed ones but not brick and understand that props will have to be used.
Cheers.

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## jiggy

How big is the window.... width. ? How many courses above. ? Double brick?

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## dingdong

2000w x 1500 tall - double brick with about 3 courses above. 
Just want how to's at present....

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## jiggy

With only three courses above its quicker and easier to take out the brickwork all the way up and rebrick over your lintel. Trying to support the remaining courses is a waste of time If the outside is rendered you can cut the top bricks, if it is face brick then try to leave complete bricks to key into later

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## dingdong

Ok, thanks for the initial response but I have several questions; 
1. How many courses above the window would be ok to not have to cut them all out to the base plate? 
2. When you say "complete bricks to key into later" do you mean once the hole is cut I will have to rebrick the bottom and side edges? - otherwise there is going to be some ugly holes showing... 
3. I would not have to replace cut bricks if it was a wooden framed window right?

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## jiggy

[If you are supporting the bricks above a  window, you need to insert a few props above the height of the lintel.Prsuming that for a span of about 2 mtrs you will be using either  2 x L shaped lintels or an inverted  T shaped one to pick up both skins.So between  the lintel and your prop you are up a minimum of  two courses Above that you need  at least 4 courses , or a hell of a lot of props

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## jago

I would use two R3 Gal Angles 170 x 100 mm 2400 (about $100each) for a 2000 opening, but check at local hardware store (not bunnings) they should be able to spec the code for you. 
You will also need to allow for the reveals (+30mm) on the inside and the sill on the outside thats up to you I would go 60mm. Have a look at Gjames website on how to fit into cavity they will have a CAD file that should explain. http://www.gjames.com.au/brochure/resproselect.pdf 
I talked about this with Kaiser Soze recently he may be able to advise, link below  http://www.renovateforum.com/f84/how...r-brick-91348/

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## dingdong

Thanks - a few more questions, 
1. Why not Bunnings?
2. Reveals - ally windows dont normally have themn do they? I've seen ally's flush with the brick.
3. The inside is not so much a problem as it will have a sill and I can plaster over the cut marks in the bricks but what about the outside skin? Dont I need to lay down a single course at the bottom to neaten that off and dig out the cutt-offs and rebrick them with solid end faces?

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## cherub65

Not just a matter of cutting a hole, If its double brick has the the roof  been considered? You may need to add a  supporting beam.

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## dingdong

I know that mate. 
I just need answers to my questions thanks.

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## jiggy

Give us a picture of the brickwork and it will be easier to give you answers.do you want timber reveals on inside or setting to window? a pictyre of an existing  window  would also help

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## jago

> Thanks - a few more questions, 
> 1. Why not Bunnings?
> 2. Reveals - ally windows dont normally have themn do they? I've seen ally's flush with the brick.
> 3. The inside is not so much a problem as it will have a sill and I can plaster over the cut marks in the bricks but what about the outside skin? Dont I need to lay down a single course at the bottom to neaten that off and dig out the cutt-offs and rebrick them with solid end faces?

  
1. Unless you know the people have any building experience which 90% don't at Bunnings whats the point! At my local builders they're all semi retired tradies a very useful font of knowledge and they will have span tables and may even have access to the BCA so that they can answer your questions. 
2.How did you plan to fix the window? if you are going to use the brick fixing fins No reveals but thats difficult on a retro fit...
if using reveals you fix through the face of the reveal . I am about to do this on 20 windows and doors at mine if you dont like/want architraves (I dont) Rod the plaster Jedi  suggested using Ezi jambs, see, Thread Square setting on Double Brick. 
3. Yes, unless you're going to Render the outside. 
I hope this is helping. 
cheers Jago :2thumbsup:

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## dingdong

Ok, thanks jago for that - i feel I am begining to see wisdom in a few areas. 
I see what you mean by placing an ally in after the fact. The fins are not really accessible once in but I was thinking of screws straight into the brick where there was overlap of the frame - lintel included. 
Do you think a wooden reveal with trim will look ok with brick? I'm not planning to come out far but leave exposed brick on outer skin. No architraves - definately not. I could not find the link to the thread about ezi jambs you suggested when I did a search. 
SO I will definately have to dig out the cut bricks on the outer skin for a nice finish - no way around this - hate digging bricks out and remortaring them. 
No photo sorry as it is just a brick wall at present - just imagine a big brick wall and you will get the picture.

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## jago

http://www.renovateforum.com/f208/sq...reveals-90990/ opps forgot to add it!  
Cant answer the question about screwing through frame as I don't know the window your using and a good place for fixing ideas is the window company that you intend buying from. 
You can still use the fins but it means taking out a brick or two ...(I will have to on large doors, for strength) and then making good afterwards, it depends on the finish of the internal wall.  
On the inside wall are you leaving this brick, plaster ? The ezy jamb and timber reveals are because I am overcladding the brick wall with plasterboard and it doesnt sound like your are? 
Ezy proudcts jambs and reveals can be bought at plastering companies.... but here's the website for a squizz. Ezyjamb, Door jamb, Ezy reveal, Ezy cap 
Outside wall if you leave your splits in there it will look bad and allow for water to potentially get in behind you nice new window.... :2thumbsup:

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## dingdong

Ok, not really interested in squaring the frame as the reveals will be positioned to do that. The good thing about ally windows is that the guys here can make them down to the millimeter and so there is no gap but a snug fit. if there are to be wooden reveals then I can screw straight into them inside the ally frame channels. I've seen them do it. 
Yes, the fins would come into play for me only if I had to but you guys have given me ideas about having reveals. You can always make good afterwards with the many final trims available to choose from. 
On the inside wall I will be going with what is already there - render base with plaster surface except for the inside sill which will be a flat overhand with trim. The easy jambs look hard to get as i am in WA and they wont really work with my brick finish on the external side. 
Yeah, will have to dig the splits out and replace with solid ends for it to look the part. 
Tell me if this sounds ok to you guys what I am thinking so far.

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## dingdong

Have changed my plan a little and am now rendering the bricks cut faces. Am also going with 3 smaller window openings instead of one large one. 
I am not using props as the width is 600 for each opening (negligible - although I will have lintels). My concern is that when I get my windows custom made for the cavity I make that I get the flashing right. I dont want to have to use wooden reveals because I want the windows to go with the style of nearby windows which are alloy flush with render. Or can I render over reveals? 
I also dont want to have to take out an extra course of bricks just to get at window tabs for securing the window - they can be screwed into brick from channel. 
I know that the alloy frames have what looks like a rubber seal channel running underneath from windows I have installed before into timber frames but never asked what they are for. Do alloy windows come with extras like a rubber seal that slides into this channel and folds out underneath? 
I dont want to have to ask my local window frame bloke again as he told me he cant give away secrets on how to install these types of windows. 
Advice needed, thanks.

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## autogenous

_Give us a picture of the brickwork and it will be easier to give you answers. _ A picture inside and out is a good start.  That way you will get the best possible solution.

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## dingdong

I think I will go with the cement fibre option I read somewhere in another thread. That is a brilliant idea as it wont crack or swell if rendered over and it can be secured to the brick and the alloy frames can be attached to it without the flanges. 
The only trick now is to get the lintels up into each window oening cut. How would you slide a larger than the opening size piece of angle up into slots made on the inside cavity? How would you make the slots on the inside cavity for both internal and external skins unless you cut the bricks out totally on either side and rebricked it? Or what about flat bar in there?

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## autogenous

Its not as easy as cutting a square then slotting a window in when you dont have lintels above already.
You have to surgically install the lintels from the inside unless you remove external face brick which never looks the same. 
Have you checked to see if there is a universal beam or hanger bearing over top of the opening?  There isn't allowed to be any bearing beams above and the whole roof could come crashing down if you aren't aware of it.  :Eek:  
Check with InterD6's book of standards.  Youll have to install flashing.  Hell tell you, its in his book.

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## autogenous

_I think I will go with the cement fibre option I read somewhere in another thread._ 
CFC sheet  goes to crap if it gets wet.  Stick some out in the rain for a few days and see what happens to it.  I think its reinforced with sugar cane fibre these days. 
You could cut into the bed joints on the internal wall and put  window clips in.  Although as Interd6 will tell you, you cant do that because it says it in the standards. 
You can put aluminium angle on the internal and render over it. Theres minimal trim fix shown then.  You'll have to fix an angle to the above lintel to stop the window sag etc. 
If you want an architrave for the external reveals cut an extra say 40mm away from the window and slot some bullnose limestone in or similar to form a neat architrave corbal or similar.

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## dingdong

I see cement fibre sitting in weather at different yards for ages and its all still good? Doent it depend on the thickness? if it is sealed and painted then it should be ok - they use this stuff for lining shower recesses. 
It is an external wall and the holes will be only 600 wide. There are rafters and joists along the wall but no load bearing beams. 
I can slot angle up into cavity but how to do this is what I was asking. 
Also the flashing is tricky to do without ripping out bricks which I want to avoid.

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## autogenous

If you seal it on all edges it might be ok.  Exposed to moisture it can go so soft over time.

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## dingdong

I am struggling with a design for flashing above near the lintel and below on the sill when all is render and would really appreciate some help here if possible.

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## intertd6

> Although as Interd6 will tell you, you cant do that because it says it in the standards.
>  .

   What are you on about now ? did I say anything on this matter ?
regards inter

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## intertd6

> I am struggling with a design for flashing above near the lintel and below on the sill when all is render and would really appreciate some help here if possible.

   You need to put up some pictures for all to get a full idea of whats going on.
retro fitting windows into openings by attaching angles around the opening is very common with rendering up to the frame after, if the outside face is rendered & painted correctly it is classed as weatherproof so flashings & weep holes are not needed.
Most window manufacturers have fixing details online .
regards inter

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## dingdong

Thanks Inter, 
As I am gathering from another site also. 
No pictures needed as it is just a hole in double brick with lintels. I will place lintels in before cutting rest of opening. 
cheers.

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## perestroika

Hey dingdong,
how did you go with this?
Do your windows have a "fin" around the perimeter that extends about 30mm out? Mine do! That fin is there (so I was told) to have lugs fixed to it. The lugs are then fixed to the bricks of cut opening, and then rendered over (no reveals). That would be all nice if there was a way to actually insert the windows into the opening, so that the fins are in the cavity. Problem is, the dimensions of the window with the fins taken into account are larger than the opening width and height. How did you go around that problem? The only solution I see would be to cut bricks out from one of the sides, and repair that after the windows are in. Another way - forget the fins, cut them off and use other methods of fixing? Can anyone help please? Thanks!

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## dingdong

No, I did not keep the fins - snapped them off by bending then back and forwards. My windows were going into a rendered external wall so it was easy for me with no external brickwork. 
I slotted out the lintels first - used 10 mill flat galv bars as my 3 windows I installed are only 600 wide. I cut the lintel holes about 50 mill thick but so that I could adjust them and fill properly with mortar solution.  
Next I cut the marked out windows on the wall running the blade along the bottom sill line first and then the verticals leaving the corners slightly connected. I cut along the measured lines so that the thickness of the blade would provide me the play I needed when slotting windows in. 
Now, dont destroy your hole by messing with the bricks. Fit windows into cavity and use small nylon wedges that tilers use to jamb it up properly and position. Attach raw alloy angle to your alloy windows with pop rivets on sides only and both sides of window.  Make sure the angle is sealed with some sort of good quality sealer underneath and between the riveted faces of the angle. Drill through the angles and fix galv plugs or stainless screws with plugs to brick underneath - they will need to be extremely long as you will strike holes. Get your high quality sealer again and go around the edges sealing them off where there is no alloy angles installed. 
Draw your render lines around the alloy window and render up to them covering your angles and plug heads.I put bondcrete in render to further waterproof it but once painted it is pretty much water tight. I also specifically ordered a profile that has a 10 mill ledge all the way around. This gives me a good render point to level it off and finsish the job. I thought of filling the brick holes at the bottom as I did not recognise mortar lines when I cut, but I reckon if there was a leak, better the water flow into the holes than through into cavity. 
Let me know how you go.

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## dingdong

One of the things I want to try next time is to use a circular saw with a diamond blade. I found it difficult cutting to depth with the big grinder. I have never seen it done before but the depth on a circular saw can have the depth set which would help with avoiding cavity wires and other important cables etc. I just jagged it and narrowly missed powered wires. :No:

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## perestroika

Thanks heaps for replies. Funny the website doesnt notify me of replies posted. 
Why you don't recommend "messing with the bricks"? I thought that was your initial intention, after reading previous posts? I actually do think it is the way to go as my external skin is not rendered. Currently the bricks around holes have ugly cut side facing the window, so I will need to put a band of render around window to hide that, if the bricks stay as they are. But instead I want to tooth them out and turn around with the good sides to the window. Yes much more work but much nicer finish. That would save me rendering and messing with fins and angles... 
On another note, in reply to your post, bondcrete is not a waterproofing additive. There are others from Bondall and from other people. 
In regards to cutting holes, a Cut'n'Break double blade saw from Huqsvarna is an excellent tool. I used it to cut heaps of concrete footing. With bricks it will be an easy job I believe. Kennards hire have it. It cost you about 250 a day but does nice job and it uses water, so no dust.

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## dingdong

before you click to post your reply there is an option below to notify you by email when someone replies to your thread. 
Yeah, I was working on a friends house but this one is my own with render and if you dont have render outside you will have to mess with the bricks - ie get bricks that match with solid tops and brick up your external hole and pull out the half cuts on the side and rebrick them in - bit of skill involved there. 
Bondcrete does have water resistant properties - not good for immersion but ok.  
What is this double cut saw? Does it have two blades instead of one? 
The hardest part is getting the lintel holes on inside to match up with outside. I predrilled right through for my starting points but that is why the slots have to be large enough to align lintels first as you dont render over them - I may be told differently?

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## perestroika

Somehow my lintels are pretty much levelled. So my slots are just the size of the joints between the bricks. Can't advice you on those, I'm not a pro, sorry. 
The saw has 2 parallel blades about 20mm apart from each other. So when you cut, a narrow band of whaterver you cut is left. You then break it if it's not broken yet, and do next cut deeper (if you need a deep cut). Break again and cut again. That's the idea and it works, you can cut up to about 400mm deep. Google for "cut'n'break diamond saw" and you'll see it.

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## dingdong

too late - i did it with a single blade - turned out ok. 
Adding render to finished edges is tricky but I devised a way. Place a wet level alongside the edges of the new window opening and use it as an outer formwork. use the bubble to make sure you are straight and bring the level to the desired depth of mortar you are trying to achieve. Render away and then shuffle the level out wards from the opening when pulling it away. Clean up edges with a sponge when mortar begins to go off. 
u will need two people for this job.

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