# Forum Home Renovation Solar Electrical Systems  The Clean Energy Council??

## Jacksin

Choosing a solar system is like walking through a minefield blindfolded, trying to avoid the scores of dodgy companies. This problem is compounded by solar retailers proudly displaying the Clean Energy Councils (CEC) logo, giving the impression they are endorsed or accredited by the CEC. This is misleading and wrong and should be changed, before it ends up in a shambles equal to the pink-batts disaster. 
The CEC are an industry body with regulatory powers over solar installers, but strangely have no control over solar retailers, who are our only contact in choosing a system until an accredited installer arrives at ones home to install it.  
Stranger still because the CEC accredited installer is given the responsibility of designing your system to supposedly meet your needs. How can he do that having never seen your home before installation day? 
Then we come to a scenario should you have a fault with your installed system. You contact the retailer, who will contact the installer and if he finds time, he might attend. If he doesnt then it becomes an I saidthey said squabble. 
I'm thinking perhaps it's best to avoid large solar retailers who can promise the earth to gain your signature and have numerous faceless contract installers,  selecting smaller accredited retailers who have employees doing installations.  
What do you think?

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## Bloss

This is a problem, but not an easy one to fix. The sales side (ie: 'retailers') is governed by the consumer protection fair trading laws in each state (and the Trade Practices ACT federally). Although the installation will only be legal if done by an accredited installer as you say, all the activity up to that point and the contract issues etc are no different to other retailing. 
As a consumer though you needn't get too concerned just because the technology is newish - the rules are the same for all selling and based on caveat emptor roughly: 'buyer beware'. All the standard rules apply: if it sounds too good to be true it will becheck out long standing local businesses first and take them even if at a slightly higher cost (you are investing in a 25 to 40 year asset why try to save a few dollars that over the life of the asset will be trivial) look at value not simply cost - this is a highly competitive market - lower cost might be because it is a really clever business, but just as likely because there is cost and probably quality cutting somewhere - and take it from me that will not be for your benefittalk to others who have had the systems installed recently and have working systems they are happy with (and use their suppliers - note some sellers will use the same 'happy owners' - sometimes they have had a discount or are getting a fee)you are spending a reasonable amount of money - get more than one quote!if the deal is 'no cost up front' or 'no interest don't take it - you will be paying interest and all costs one way or another IMO best to do so transparently and in full awarenesssee the other posts on what counts with PV (or any renewable system) the amount it costs you for the reasonably estimated kWh output. Any revenue or cost saving on your bill will be paid on that measure - kWh. 
No law can protect against stupidity, ignorance or naievety. Stupidity is hard, how much you know and how much you stay aware is in your control. 
But for most sites a design at pretty accurate levels for quoting purposes can be done using Google Earth or NearMap http://www.nearmap.com/ - a competent and professional installer will do a site visit before any work proceeds. The components are highly standardised - the issues arise about site specific differences. And little things can catch you - for example the need to upgrade the meter box to take an additional meter and that can lead o a complete re-wire of the box that can mean RCDs are mandated and so it goes on. That can add $1000-$2000 that you might not have been planning so you need to follow up on that _before_ you place any PV system order. 
There are some guides: http://www.climatechange.gov.au/gove...factsheet.ashx and the CEC has a consumer guide here: http://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au.../solarPV-guide and it does mention meters, but does not warn that there could be a significant cost. 
Note too that some (especially larger marketers who mostly just sub the work out eg: Harvey Norman) do not include the local authority fees & charges - and others charge a premium without telling you that you can make bookings and pay directly the exact fee. 
Summary: You need to establish the full cost of all the work needed AND get a written quote BEFORE you place any order. Also make sure that if you pay a deposit that it is tied to a fixed completion date (that you can agree to extend - say for bad weather), is also refundable if the work is not done and also do not pay any final payment until you (not the installer) have a copy of the completion certificate, electrical or other compliance certificates required by the various authorities. Amend the contract by handwriting it on if need be (onto both signed copies). The payment should only be made when the commissioned system is recognised as such on the grid - usually by your electricity retailer.

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## Smurf

I strongly recommend doing your own estimate of annual power output rather than relying on "advice" from a salesperson who may well be inflating the figures to try and gain your business. 
Whilst it relates to one specific brand of inverter, the efficiency of most inverters is similar enough to use the following software regardless of what inverter you are getting. Do a search for "SMA Sunny Design", download the software and have a play with it.  
Even if you are going for a different brand of inverter, you'll learn far more playing with this for an hour than any salesperson will ever tell you. It's a free download (SMA being a very large manufacturer of inverters, just make sure the download is in English since it's a German company). 
If you want any car then you just go an buy any car. But if you want something specific that does everything you want, then you do your own research before buying. It shouldn't really be necessary, but given the nature of sales people I recommend doing the same with solar. Do you own research and know exactly what you're getting before you sign. 
I do a lot of work with solar in the course of my employment (no, I don't do household grid-connect installations however). Main thing I've noticed is that it is all a bit of a mystery even to many engineers and electricians. It's not an area of widespread knowledge - do your own calculations if you really want to know what to expect from a particular system. 
If you told me your roof pitch, orientation (degrees from true north) and whether or not there is any shading (ANY shade at all - power lines, TV antennas etc?) then I'd happily crunch the numbers for you. Reasonable estimates for pitch and orientation will be good enough to give an estimate of power production.  
(Note, the sun will be to the North around 1pm daylight saving time - use this as a reference to work out how close to North the roof faces if you don't have a compass. As for the roof pitch, walk up the street or across the road and take a look at your roof from a distance - it's around 22 degrees for many houses (0 degrees would be completely flat, whilst 90 would be the same angle as the walls). A visual estimate should be good enough, but use a proper compass if you really want accurate figures.

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## Bloss

A useful tool to get a reasonable estimate of any PV array can be found here: PVWATTS v. 1 use the international version. This is a free tool from the US National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL). Pitch and orientation can vary quite widely from 'ideal' and you still get quite good results over a full year.  
The attached graphic (from my location - the ACT - for latitude 35°S) shows the effect of orientation and elevation on module output, expressed as a percentage of the maximum possible output. You can see that a wide range of elevation and orientation angles will still provide useful output (so pretty much between NNE and NNW will give good results) and although tilt should be roughly your latitude you can vary that and still get good results (a chart for other latitudes will be a similar pattern). A bit dated (but not really out of-date) but good info here too: Your Home Technical Manual - 6.7 Photovoltaic Systems including some tables of what sorts of output you can expect. 
Unless you get a no-name brand of panel and/or inverter the differences in efficiency are relatively small (<3%) as between brands and that does not translate to a change of output at that percentage. The variability of insolation will have a much greater impact on the actual performance of your system so stick with my earlier advice on cost vs kWh output ($ per kW capacity is an OK analog for systems of similar size and quality brands). The aim is to have all panels getting full sun from around 0900 to 1500 mid-winter - that will mean good all year round (so long as there is no shading at all).  The 2nd attachment is a bit of an oddity as it does not show the optimal angle for each city, but is useful to show the relatively small output difference between two tilt angles in any case. 
A reminder too that if you are getting quotes find out where the installer intends to mount the inverter(s) - the sparky will often bung it wherever is easiest to get a bit of free wall or close to the meter box, or shortest cable run (rather than upping the cable size a bit).  They all are affected by heat - and performance dramatically drops outside a fairly narrow range. They emit considerable heat in normal operation, but if at all possible should be mounted on south facing wall (in Oz) and in shade. Some use fans, but most use well designed heat-sinks and convection airflow - block that at your peril. If that is not possible then a suitable shading method should be provided - they need airflow too so if a box then just a face or a face & sides with the top & bottom left open.

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## Smurf

I've got my inverter mounted under the house, thus keeping it out of direct sunlight and nice and cool.  :Smilie:

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## Jacksin

Thanks for your responses. I started looking into a solar system back in early January and did extensive homework, spending countless hours reading everything I could at the Whirlpool site. 
I looked into around 24 companies, deleting those who had several forum complaints and deleted those who sounded too good/too cheap to be quality. As time went by, and seeing the benefits of solar, I increased the size of my preferred system and selected a quality inverter and panels. 
I was recommended a solar retailer, whose presentation by the manager was uninformative and amateurish. I eventually rejected this company for failing to return promised phone calls and ignoring emails. Friends who are computer illiterate, chose to believe the same company's slick salesman's spin and went ahead with their install. Much was made at their presentation of the CEC endorsement. 
This retailer proudly displayed the CEC's logo on their glossy brochure, which gave me the impression they were endorsed or accredited, but in reality the logo meant nothing. 
To think that the Dept of Fair Trading will act should you have problems later is a fairy-tale. In SA they only give opinions little else, and the retailers play on this. The ACCC are another mob asleep at the wheel. 
I have since signed with a reputable (smaller) company who has been around a few years and paid a deposit, but any consumer protection from the solar retailers by the CEC is all smoke and mirrors and should be exposed as such.

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## Bloss

> I've got my inverter mounted under the house, thus keeping it out of direct sunlight and nice and cool.

  me too - on the south side under the concrete floor of my laundry.  :2thumbsup:  
As to the supposed consumer protection regulatory systems - they are, have always been and always will be the last resort and can mostly act after the event. That's why I try to give advice on what to look for, including the one that works best - personal trust and word of mouth - from friends who are happy with the work, and what you ended up doing: find a good local business who have been doing it for a while (and pay them a little more if need be). 
The notion that some government body will be able to protect you except in the most extreme cases (and even then they tend to focus on punishment of the offenders not fixing the customers problems) is naive at best. But when you have people who will sign up and pay for a house worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and then come on here to discover what it is built from and what constraints might there be on renovating what hope is there? Very hard to protect people from themselves .  .  .

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## racingtadpole

Welcome to what is a feral industry.  I was about 2/3rds the way through my studies toward an Adv Diploma in RE  (which included the Design/Install accreditation) when things changed and the Diploma course I was doing was shut down pretty much overnight.  This happened shortly after the BCSE became the CEC.  I literally got an email on a Thursday stating that any outstanding modules not submitted for assesment by the Friday of the week following would be closed out as not completed.  That course has now evaporated and was scheduled to become a Cert 4 course with an option to do EXTRA units to get the Adv Dip.  That was two years ago.  I rang the farce of a training institution and spoke to the senior lecturer that had been in charge of the delivery of the Adv Dip and he informed me that the change of name from BCSE to CEC had also meant some changes to the training for the accreditation.  Essentially what he told me without actually saying it out loud directly was that the CEC was concerned that the industry was seeing too many people wanting to get into it and as a result the training was altered to all but shut out anyone who wasnt already a sparky, ie they were looking to make it somewhat more of a closed shop (trust me when I tell you that coming in from an allied industry (even though I work with PV setups regularly) was a royal PITA).
I have dealings with contractors that do stuff for us at work and the reports are of an industry that is so cut throat that suppliers are undercutting distributors in order to win contracts and its not uncommon for someones grandmother to be sold to the highest bidder to assist in getting a foot in the door.  Of course the arrival of the Chinese imports hasnt helped either.  An install costs a finite amount to do and if suppliers are cutting corners to make deals, its normally the installer that gets squeezed into the position of having to cut corners.
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that most of the big players tied to the CEC are either Coal or Oil based...... 
Jacksin, if you are after a recommendation, go and have a chat with Solaris.  They are a little more expensive but that is reflected in the quality of the finished work.

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## Bloss

With all the best of intentions I don't really count recommendation from forum members as 'word of mouth' so far as advice on local businesses goes - that advice needs to be both local and preferably from people you know or those recommended by people you trust. Likewise on negatives against businesses - one of the reasons Admin will remove names is that it is not really possible to judge all sides of a situation. 
And yes CEC is hardly impartial - a few foxes in the hen house IMO. 
Just my view though.  :Cool:

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## watson

Let's just keep it on topic and with a bit of decorum please.

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