# Forum More Stuff Go to Whoa!  Owner Builder ICF knock-down/rebuild Canberra

## Prickles

I've been meaning to start a Blog/Post since the project began many months ago but it's hard to say just where the start line is.  I've decided that now the safety fences are up it's time to Blog. 
We're knocking down an old 'ex-guvy' steel framed asbestos clad cottage in one of the older suburbs and building a nice efficient house to spend the rest of our healthy lives.  I plan to use this forum to document the stages.

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## paddyjoy

Good luck with the project and post lots of pictures along the way!

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## Prickles

> Good luck with the project and post lots of pictures along the way!

  Thanks Paddyjoy.  I've posted the plans elsewhere in the 'G'Day' forum, but here they are again: Attachment 100986 Attachment 100987

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## Prickles

...can someone tell me how to adjust the size of photos? 
anyway... it's a very basic design that my wife came up with after lots of drafts and minor alterations.  We are limited by the size of the block (30m x 15m), the orientation is not TOO bad. 
There is only the two of us with the very occasional house guest.  I've just retired so we don't want a big expensive McMansion.  It just has to be comfortable and energy efficient and last us until we need aged care (hopefully not for another 20 - 25 years).

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## Prickles

As everyone knows, you need a shed - so the first step was to knock up a temporary shed to securely store the important thing you need on a building site, such as the beer fridge.
Those of you with a keen eye will notice that I was stingy on bearers and you are right, the compressor does shake things around a little but it is only temporary.

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## Uncle Bob

> the compressor does shake things around a little but it is only temporary.

  Hope those beers don't get "All shook up"  :Smilie:

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## Belair_Boy

> As everyone knows, you need a shed - so the first step was to knock up a temporary shed

  Why only a temporary shed ? Everyone knows, you need a shed/workshop so why not build a more permanent one. :Smilie:  
Great to see that you have started and I am looking forward to the progress pictures. 
Hope the weather is kind for your ground works.

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## Prickles

> Hope those beers don't get "All shook up"

  I make sure I only use the air tools in the morning!

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## Prickles

> Why only a temporary shed ? Everyone knows, you need a shed/workshop so why not build a more permanent one.

  Hi Belair_Boy, there isn't going to be a whole lot of real estate after the build and the BBQ area will take up most of that.  I'm hoping the garage will be big enough for future projects.

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## Prickles

To save the expense of hiring a port-a-loo I added the facility to the side of the shed.  I 're-purposed' the old loo to extend it's life.  Luckily the sewerage runs along the back fence so plumbing it in was not a problem.  Currently water comes from the mains via the old garden hose but I'm setting up a gravity feed using a spare council bin on a few old wooden pallets.

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## Prickles

Can you spot the difference?  Asbestos removal has commenced, the ol' kitchen just isn't the same any more.  To save a grand on the demolition I took the insulation out of the walls myself.  I put it in there about ten years ago when I renovated the whole place and built the current/old kitchen.  Way back then I pulled out all the original plaster and horse hair walls and installed Gyprock.  Even with a tonne of insulation in the walls and roof the house still leaked heat like a sieve.

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## Nic0

Great idea recycling the loo and you will definitely need that beer fridge during the working bees.  :Smilie:

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## Prickles

ICF builds are still very rare and finding a builder with experience, or even interested in trying ICF has been challenging to say the least.  Whenever we spotted an ICF build we would pull over and inquire about the builder to see if they would be interested in our project.  Mostly it was Owner-Builders and while they were happy to share everything they had learned we still could not find anyone interested in taking on an energy efficient house with ICF walls. 
Interestingly Yass builders seem to be giving ICF a go and two builders have, or are about to, use it on their own houses.  Thermacell put us onto Brendan Foran (Foran Building - Foran Building Company - Yass) and he was kind enough to let me visit his building site on the first day of working on the walls.

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## rod1949

I considered going the foam blocks back in 2003/2004 when wanting to demolish and rebuild but when steel framed with 75mm foam (Rmax) screwed to the outside of the steel frame. 
I'll now sit back and watch your build.

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## Prickles

> Great idea recycling the loo and you will definitely need that beer fridge during the working bees.

  Hey NicO, You are right on the money there!  I'm going to take your post as an offer to come over and help out when the going gets tough!

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## Prickles

> I considered going the foam blocks back in 2003/2004 when wanting to demolish and rebuild but when steel framed with 75mm foam (Rmax) screwed to the outside of the steel frame. 
> I'll now sit back and watch your build.

  Hi Rod, thanks for the post and your interest in the build.  How do you find the steel/foam build?  75 mm should give you are pretty good R value are you happy with the performance after 10 winters?  Are there any 'Gotchas' that I should be looking out for?

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## Prickles

After much discussion we have decided to sell the children to pay for triple glazed windows from Germany. While we like our kids we LOVE the thought of windows with a 'U' rating less than one. Take a look at www.doepfner.de ! Granted, it is all in German, but you'll get the idea.

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## paddyjoy

> After much discussion we have decided to sell the children to pay for triple glazed windows from Germany. While we like our kids we LOVE the thought of windows with a 'U' rating less than one. Take a look at www.doepfner.de ! Granted, it is all in German, but you'll get the idea.

  Interesting, do they have an Australian distributor or are you shipping them in yourself?

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## rod1949

> Hi Rod, thanks for the post and your interest in the build.  How do you find the steel/foam build?  75 mm should give you are pretty good R value are you happy with the performance after 10 winters?  Are there any 'Gotchas' that I should be looking out for?

  The R value is around 4.2 (75mm foam, 75mm insulation batts (in between the steel frame studs) and 10mm gyprock).  The only 'gotcha' is that lately we finding trails of finely chewed foam inside the house from tiny little ants (not termites) and then we dose up with ant baits.

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## Prickles

> Interesting, do they have an Australian distributor or are you shipping them in yourself?

  Hi Paddyjoy, we are getting them through Laros Technologies, we were lucky enough to get put onto them by the 'friend of a friend' network.  The bloke behind it is Dr Andreas Luzzi, he's an engineer who used to build in Europe and has done a lot of work and research on 'Passive' design buildings - you've probably seem a couple of passive builds in the UK 'Grand Designs' series.  He imports some pretty impressive technology including 'Sanden' hot water systems, LWZ Energy Recovery Systems, SV systems and of course triple glazed windows.  This is starting to sound like a commercial, but after half an hour talking to Andreas we came out with our heads spinning - and promptly decided to make the build as passive as possible.  If you're interested the URL is LAROS Technologies - Home  He mostly does commercial builds, but he has gone out of his way to help us with our build.

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## Prickles

> The R value is around 4.2 (75mm foam, 75mm insulation batts (in between the steel frame studs) and 10mm gyprock).  The only 'gotcha' is that lately we finding trails of finely chewed foam inside the house from tiny little ants (not termites) and then we dose up with ant baits.

  R4.2 is pretty impressive Rod, I'm guessing that would keep your heating bills down.  Those bloody ants seem to love insulation, pulling my fibro off I found the walls were one giant ant farm.

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## paddyjoy

> Hi Paddyjoy, we are getting them through Laros Technologies, we were lucky enough to get put onto thee by the 'friend of a friend' network.  The bloke behind it is Dr Andreas Luzzi, he's an engineer who used to build in Europe and has done a lot of work and research on 'Passive' design buildings - you've probably seem a couple of passive builds in the UK 'Grand Designs' series.  He imports some pretty impressive technology including 'Sanden' hot water systems, LWZ Energy Recovery Systems, SV systems and of course triple glazed windows.  This is starting to sound like a commercial, but after half an hour talking to Andreas we came out with our heads spinning - and promptly decided to make the build as passive as possible.  If you're interested the URL is LAROS Technologies - Home  He mostly does commercial builds, but he has gone out of his way to help us with our build.

  They look impressive, will be good to watch your build come together!

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## Prickles

This morning was the first frost of the winter, the outside thermometer was measuring 0.8 degrees at 7AM and the inside temperature was 8 degrees.   
This is a rental circa 1970 (building commenced in this suburb in 1963) the house is designed to leak energy.  Brick veneer with no insulation, down lights with a gap beside the light fitting big enough to let huntsmen in, gaps between the floorboards and the skirting boards wide enough to drop a pen down... the list goes on.  Central heating was installed back when natural gas was cheap, the furnace takes ten minutes to warm the air and ten minutes later the energy has escaped, mainly through the evaporative cooling ducts in the ceiling. 
Living here while we are building is great as it has everything BAD about a house.  The depressing thing is the modern display homes are not that much different from this house, while they all claim 'Green' credentials the basic build has not changed in 100 years.  Next time you visit a display house ask the sales person for the energy star rating, their response may prove interesting...

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## Prickles

Brad and Daniel have got the first layer of blocks down and trimmed to the right level all the way around the external wall.  They have laid in the first row of horizontal reo and are busy tying it to the verticals.  Now that they have a level first layer the next two layers will be a breeze.  My understanding is there is no horizontal reo in the second layer and once they have tied in the reo on the third layer they will pour the first lot of concrete. 
The first layer is bonded onto the slab to form a seal for the concrete. 
The mains will come up through the wall straight to the meter box which will be recessed into the blocks so the door of the box is flush with the render.

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## Prickles

Not a McMansion, but big enough two with the occasional guest.

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## Prickles

The asbestos removal team have been beavering away for a week, when I arrived on site today it was a hive of activity with flattop trucks, a lifting platform and a cast of thousands.  By the end of the day half the roof was gone.  Tomorrow should see the last of the asbestos removed.  Bring on the heavy machinery!

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## ChocDog

Looks great Prickles. Keenly watching... I've never understood Australians reluctance to insulate the cr$p out of their houses. I know its high cost, but I'd prefer to compromise in other areas. To see what they do in Europe  to combat the climate is amazing (especially glazing). We are doing the most we can with insulating while rebuilding our timber framed weatherboard, but if we were ever to build again, it would all be based around thermal efficiency for sure.

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## goldie1

> This morning was the first frost of the winter, the outside thermometer was measuring 0.8 degrees at 7AM and the inside temperature was 8 degrees.  
> This is a rental circa 1970 (building commenced in this suburb in 1963) the house is designed to leak energy. Brick veneer with no insulation, down lights with a gap beside the light fitting big enough to let huntsmen in, gaps between the floorboards and the skirting boards wide enough to drop a pen down... the list goes on. Central heating was installed back when natural gas was cheap, the furnace takes ten minutes to warm the air and ten minutes later the energy has escaped, mainly through the evaporative cooling ducts in the ceiling. 
> Living here while we are building is great as it has everything BAD about a house. The depressing thing is the modern display homes are not that much different from this house, while they all claim 'Green' credentials the basic build has not changed in 100 years. Next time you visit a display house ask the sales person for the energy star rating, their response may prove interesting...

  Don,t you just love BV. I'm living in a BV rental which sounds like the twin of yours. Love to put 
a bulldozer through it. It has all of the above plus the living area kitchen  which has  a north wall 
facing the garden and a west wall facing the  neighbours side wall. So you guessed it the 
windows are on the west wall. Those German windows are impressive. Will be watching with interest

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## Prickles

> Looks great Prickles. Keenly watching... I've never understood Australians reluctance to insulate the cr$p out of their houses. I know its high cost, but I'd prefer to compromise in other areas. To see what they do in Europe  to combat the climate is amazing (especially glazing). We are doing the most we can with insulating while rebuilding our timber framed weatherboard, but if we were ever to build again, it would all be based around thermal efficiency for sure.

  Hi ChocDog, thanks for the message, it's interesting isn't it?  I guess we've always be told that we live in a sunburn country, and if you live in the 'top half' the winters are mild, but for those of us living below the 25th parallel (and there's a few of us) winter can be long and cold but our houses aren't built for it.   
We've been lucky enough to spend time in Europe and they take insulation seriously.  The mandatory six star energy rating is a good start and an architect friend tells me double glazing is now the standard for new builds, but it seems the industry has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the third millennium.

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## Prickles

> Don,t you just love BV. I'm living in a BV rental which sounds like the twin of yours. Love to put 
> a bulldozer through it. It has all of the above plus the living area kitchen  which has  a north wall 
> facing the garden and a west wall facing the  neighbours side wall. So you guessed it the 
> windows are on the west wall. Those German windows are impressive. Will be watching with interest

  Hi Goldie1, I feel your pain!  I seems there are so many homes where the bulldozer is the renovation tool of choice.  Also, wouldn't it be good if new suburbs were designed with north facing blocks?  We know what is good design but we are still churning out 'nasty Noddy houses'

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## Phowe

Hi Pickles, I feel your pain with the winter blues, this week the electronic equivalent to mercury plummeted to a very nasty 11 degrees, I almost had to put socks on with my thongs! Good to see the progress on the demo work, I recall trying cut through the metal frame on that place astounded at the strength of it. I have to say that your loo looks a bit breezy   :Wink: 
cheers
P&J

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## Prickles

At last, the old house has been demolished!  The last of the asbestos was removed in the morning, a dude came by to inspect the work and the big machine rolled in that afternoon at about 3.00PM.  It made short work of the old house, within three minutes it was flattened, within the hour the metal had been trucked off and there was only a small pile of rubble left - Awesome! 
Watch the video at Gone in 3 mins - YouTube   
Will start the clean up Monday, hope to be digging in the drains by the end of the week.

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## Prickles

If you are really interested in energy efficient buildings check out the blog - The New Zealand's First Passive House 
It is a seriously passive build in NZ, let me know what you think.

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## Prickles

> If you are really interested in energy efficient buildings check out the blog - The New Zealand's First Passive House 
> It is a seriously passive build in NZ, let me know what you think.

  Here is another good blog, a super insulated build in Melbourne - About | ICF House (insulated concrete form)

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## Prickles

The guys from Irwin & Hartshorn (Canberra Transport, demolition and excavation) did an amazing job of cleaning up the site.  By lunchtime Monday they loaded the rest of the house, ripped up all the footings, pipes and stumps, dug a hole for the plumber to seal the sewerage, leveled off the block and pressed it down with the tracks.  Amazing!  Would highly recommend them if you have a demolition, they were are pleasant bunch of guys to deal with. 
The surveyor is booked in for Thursday so I have two days to move my brain from demolition phase to building phase - and that means making decisions!  We have agreed on an aggregate for the slab, which will be polished (i.e. no floor covering). 
Now we need to decide on the walls, Zego Thermocell or Insulbrick... it's a hard call and I welcome any advice from other ICF builders.  While it sounds like choosing between Coke and Pepsi there are a few differences.  Thermocell say they are the only form that can be built without bracing and bracing is a big part of the total cost.

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## Belair_Boy

> Thermocell say they are the only form that can be built without bracing

  As I have said elsewhere, although the Thermacell website says you don't need bracing IMHO I would suggest you do.  Maybe not as much but definitely in critical areas.  The last thing you want during an ICF wall fill is for a wall to move out of plumb or worse still fall over.  
To quote from the (all new) Thermacell website "Thermacell blocks are more stable, have tighter keyways (which help to  hold the blocks together while they are being filled) and *much less  bracing* is needed to hold the walls in position."  Note: I have not personally used Thermacell but have been involved in 7 ICF wall fills now. 
The ICF blocks are very light compared to concrete and will try and float off, once concrete gets between the blocks there is no way of getting them back together.  Gun foam will help a lot in keeping the first course stuck down in position and keeping blocks together but I would not solely rely on it.
You could probably get away without bracing if you hand filled each course in turn but if you are going to pump then it would be very risky without bracing.  Bracing also gives you a scaffold platform to stand on while building the wall and filling the blocks. 
For what it's worth I have been very happy with Insulbrick and their 200 series block.

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## Prickles

> As I have said elsewhere, although the Thermacell website says you don't need bracing IMHO I would suggest you do.  Maybe not as much but definitely in critical areas.  The last thing you want during an ICF wall fill is for a wall to move out of plumb or worse still fall over.  
> To quote from the (all new) Thermacell website "Thermacell blocks are more stable, have tighter keyways (which help to  hold the blocks together while they are being filled) and *much less  bracing* is needed to hold the walls in position."  Note: I have not personally used Thermacell but have been involved in 7 ICF wall fills now. 
> The ICF blocks are very light compared to concrete and will try and float off, once concrete gets between the blocks there is no way of getting them back together.  Gun foam will help a lot in keeping the first course stuck down in position and keeping blocks together but I would not solely rely on it.
> You could probably get away without bracing if you hand filled each course in turn but if you are going to pump then it would be very risky without bracing.  Bracing also gives you a scaffold platform to stand on while building the wall and filling the blocks.

  Hi Belair_Boy, it is information like this that makes the internet worthwhile!  What you are saying makes very good sense and you have probably saved me for a serious disaster.  Trying to say a few grand based on a sales spiel could have gone horribly wrong, so hearing from someone who has had real hands-on experience with ICF is invaluable, I really appreciate your taking the time out to pass this on. 
Thanks

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## Belair_Boy

No problem, my pleasure.  Please feel free to take on board whatever you feel is appropriate to your situation. 
Bracing can take many different forms, from simple bits of timber in appropriate places to elaborate adjustable steel frames.
I have attached some pictures of bracing I have seen or used which may give you some ideas.  I took the time to make the braces I needed as doing walls on 3 levels made it the most economical way.  Braces can also be bought and sold on after the job allowing the cost to be mostly recovered.
You can re-purpose materials for bracing that will later be used elsewhere in the construction where possible.  My formply is continually being reused until it ends up as tiny pieces.

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## Prickles

> No problem, my pleasure.  Please feel free to take on board whatever you feel is appropriate to your situation. 
> Bracing can take many different forms, from simple bits of timber in appropriate places to elaborate adjustable steel frames.
> I have attached some pictures of bracing I have seen or used which may give you some ideas.  I took the time to make the braces I needed as doing walls on 3 levels made it the most economical way.  Braces can also be bought and sold on after the job allowing the cost to be mostly recovered.
> You can re-purpose materials for bracing that will later be used elsewhere in the construction where possible.  My formply is continually being reused until it ends up as tiny pieces.

  Thanks for those images Belair_Boy, that is just the catalyst I need to take a reality check.

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## Prickles

ACT Electricity and Water (ACTEW) FINALLY connected the power to the temporary board on May 16.  The survey was completed on 26 March, I paid to have the overhead cables moved from the house to the pole on 2 April, and it still took another seven weeks! 
Seven weeks to get a cable moved seven metres..... 
There's another sacred cow ready for the slaughter right there!

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## Prickles

After many many months of planning and delays the build is finally underway!  The Bobcats and back-hoes rolled into action Friday.  Pablo the concreter started to level the block and Rosco the plumber started digging in the drains.  The block is a hive of activity, the slab pour is currently scheduled for Tuesday 27th May - just eight days away and I'll need a crash course in hydronics between now and then.

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## Prickles

Whilst I am an Owner Builder I am under no illusions about the complexity of the project so when we finally found a real builder who was interested in building an energy efficient house with ICF walls we were pretty excited.  Nick Valois from Autumn Constructions (autumnconstructions.com.au) was just finishing a reverse brick 'Passive' build when we first met him and the owners were kind enough to show us around.  You can gauge a lot from previous customers so when the new owners treated Nick like a rock start we figured he must be doing something right. 
Since Nick has come on board everything has fallen into place, he has a team of young guns who know their stuff.  My job has become a whole lot easier, all I need to do now is keep the coffee up to the team.

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## Prickles

it's all happening!  Pablo has roughly leveled the site, Rosco has laid all the drains and they have passed the first inspection.  The drainage trenches are now filled and the site completely level, the surveyor has made his second visit to remark the corners.   
Today Pablo and Nick have finished 90% of the framing, they called in some mates to dig the piers for the slab. 
The Waffle pods have arrived... 
Expecting the hydronic pipes to arrive tomorrow for installation Friday.  Slab inspection Monday and then pouring the slab is scheduled for Tuesday... 
Exciting stuff, I can see why these guys love their work.

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## Prickles

> Hi Pickles, I feel your pain with the winter blues, this week the electronic equivalent to mercury plummeted to a very nasty 11 degrees, I almost had to put socks on with my thongs! Good to see the progress on the demo work, I recall trying cut through the metal frame on that place astounded at the strength of it. I have to say that your loo looks a bit breezy  
> cheers
> P&J

  G'Day mate, I missed your post buried amongst all my dross.  Great to here from you, sounds like you are doing it tough up there, 11 degrees - practically a frost!  Hope you called in a 'Snow Day'! 
Cheers 
PS - the loo is nice a cozy now - but not too cozy, don't want to workers goofing off and reading my APC mags.

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## Prickles

A very busy week, Nick and Pablo have been flat out!  Piers dug, vapour barrier is down, waffle pods laid out, first layer of reo mesh down.  These guys are marvelous. 
Slight hiccup with the piers, the excavator could not get them down to 2100 as they hit a solid layer around 900.  Now I'm not an engineer, but I seriously doubt the slab was going to slip off the block with umpteen tonnes of concrete, but the the surveyor wasn't going to give us the tick until the engineer added another line to the drawings.   
By Thursday night we were looking good and on Friday Nick gave me a hand to run in the Hydronics pipes.  If the thermal efficiency of the building is as good as we hope it will be then we will never need to connect the hydronics - but we still have to install the pipes just in case we need the heating.  It's not something you can retro fit.

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## rod1949

So there is no requirement to excavate/edge thicken the slab below the natural ground level to help prevent/control water erosion under the slab?

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## Prickles

> So there is no requirement to excavate/edge thicken the slab below the natural ground level to help prevent/control water erosion under the slab?

  Hi Rod1949, the slab is pretty solid, the edge beam is about 400 x 400 and we are sitting on clay unlike you sandgropers  :Smilie: .  Water erosion isn't really an issue.

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## Prickles

> So there is no requirement to excavate/edge thicken the slab below the natural ground level to help prevent/control water erosion under the slab?

  Hi again Rod1949, 
I just happen to be in the west the week and had the conversation with someone who is planning a build in Perth, it seems you have regulations aimed to capture roof water and get it back into the water table rather than having it run off into the river systems.  I'm gussing that is to keep up the level of the water table and make up for all those bore-fed lawns you have over there.   
At 570 metres above sea level that isn't the problem over here, the biggest issue is the droughts when the clay dries up and shrinks.  My understaning is the waffle slab will 'float' and ride out the shrink/expand cycle without damaging the structure... at least that's what I'm hoping.

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## Prickles

The slab pour was scheduled for Tuesday 27 June.  Predicting a brief lull in activity between the pour and the polish I booked flight for Perth to visit my 'ol mum - BUT - after several weeks of good weather the forecast was for rain and 50KM winds!  The pour was postponed and I couldn't change my flights so Nick and Pablo has to pour the slab without me.  In truth they were probably glad to have the spectator out of the way so they could get on with it.
Nick was kind enough to take some photos of the action, including this time lapse file which compresses the process into 27 seconds. Attachment 101359 Slab Pour 2.MP4

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## Prickles

[QUOTE=Prickles;939699]Nick was kind enough to take some photos of the action. Attachment 101359
That post didn't seen to work too well - let's try again...

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## Prickles

One week after the slab was poured it is time to polish up our concrete floor.  We added river stone into the aggregate from Monara Mix to get the floor we wanted.   Jay from Earthstone Polishing (0423616002) did an excellent job.   
After the second 'cut' Jay covers the polishes areas to protect it for the rest of the build.  He will be back before we move in to do one last polish and put done three coats of sealer for the finished product.

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## Prickles

A major goal behind this build is energy efficiency, so to prevent all our heat leaking out of the slab into the neighborhood we are gluing a layer of Extruded Polystyrene (EXP) Insulation Board onto the face of the slab, it extends 100mm past the bottom of the slab.  There will be a 600mm sheet of horizontal EXP adjacent to the slab to keep it toasty warm.

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## ToneG

Hi Prickles,  
Enjoying your thread - I admire your bravery and skill.... 
One question - does the slab insulation mean that you can't use the exposed slab as a termite barrier, or do you have a chemical barrier instead? 
Cheers

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## Prickles

> Hi Prickles,  
> One question - does the slab insulation mean that you can't use the exposed slab as a termite barrier, or do you have a chemical barrier instead? 
> Cheers

  Hi ToneG, 
Thanks for your message, I hope I'm not being too brave, I'd like to think that ICF will become mainstream before too long and on Sunday drives through the older suburbs folks will point and say "Look, there's one of those old brick veneer heat sinks!"  But that might still be a while off....  
The termite treatment we are using is visible in the photo, it is the dark blue/black strip running around the top edge of the slab.  Regulations here don't allow us to use an 'in the ground - tube' system and the strip has to be visible.  I'll attach a rough up of a cross section showing how we plan to do things.

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## Prickles

Tim Drummond from Insulbrick (insulbrick) delivered our ICF wall blocks on Monday, after what seems like years of planning it was exciting to finally get our walls.

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## Prickles

Just in case you are wondering where these crazy ideas are coming from I've lifted a small section form the publication called BRANZ (About BRANZ) which I'd never heard of until Nick Valois passed me a copy.  It seems BRANZ is an "independent and impartial research, testing, consulting and information company providing services and resources for the building industry" funded by an NZ 'Building Research Levy'.  I figure they should know about building in cold climates.  It's an interesting read with lots of diagrams so non-professional types like me can get a grip on the concepts, definitely worth a look if you are planning to build in cooler climes. ISBN 978-1-877330-79-7 
The bottom line is we lose a lot of that expensive heat energy from the slab to the outside air and soil and the extruded polystyrene sheeting substantially reduces the heat loss.

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## mcarthur

Hi Prickles, 
Just found your posts.
Very interesting!
We used/talked with Laros before our current build - he certainly helped with information although we chose, for various reasons, not to go with some of it.
If you want to know what builder *not* to use, ask me offline  :Shock:   :No: .
We went polished concrete floors, north facing huge windows, everything dbl glazed, super insulated, but couldn't do full passiv haus and air tightness.
We've had -2 outside recently (prob about -10 with wind chill) and inside has not got under 18 - with no heating at all. 
Recently, I've bought a 1964 BV in the Woden area - a never-renovated AV Jennings - and will fully reno the existing 130sqm, and then add another 140sqm "detached" extension.
I'll keep track of your ICF build as that's one option for the extension, although I'm partial to SIP myself (with no practical experience, just what I've read). 
Rob

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## Prickles

> Hi Prickles, 
> Just found your posts.
> Very interesting!
> We used/talked with Laros before our current build - he certainly helped with information although we chose, for various reasons, not to go with some of it.
> If you want to know what builder *not* to use, ask me offline  .
> We went polished concrete floors, north facing huge windows, everything dbl glazed, super insulated, but couldn't do full passiv haus and air tightness.
> We've had -2 outside recently (prob about -10 with wind chill) and inside has not got under 18 - with no heating at all. 
> Recently, I've bought a 1964 BV in the Woden area - a never-renovated AV Jennings - and will fully reno the existing 130sqm, and then add another 140sqm "detached" extension.
> I'll keep track of your ICF build as that's one option for the extension, although I'm partial to SIP myself (with no practical experience, just what I've read). 
> Rob

  Hi Rob,
Thanks for the message, good to hear there are some like minded folks in the Capital.
Like you we won't be taking on all the Laros gear, will strive towards air tight but this will be difficult because we are making the roof (not the ceiling) the thermal boundary.  Not planning to run the vacuum test, will judge the success but the comfort levels and the power bills.
I look forward to hearing the 'builder story', I have been very lucky to find someone who is taking energy efficiency seriously. 
Very interested to hear how you get on with your latest project, I haven't had anything to do with SIP construction but my wife researched it and advised it was going to be very costly - but very fast.  Our build is not far from Woden and we are starting on the walls this week (if the rain ever stops) so feel free to come over and take a look if you are toying with the idea of using ICF. 
Peter

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## Uncle Bob

> air tightness.

  This is one thing that has me confused.
I see the English on TV attempting this all the time, yet I think it can't be good for you, breathing stale air continuously. It also sounds like a mound trap.
I suppose with a heat transfer system, pulling the heat from stale vented air into fresh air it might be ok?

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## Prickles

> This is one thing that has me confused.
> I see the English on TV attempting this all the time, yet I think it can't be good for you, breathing stale air continuously. It also sounds like a mound trap.
> I suppose with a heat transfer system, pulling the heat from stale vented air into fresh air it might be ok?

  Hi Uncle Bob, 
I have to admit that had me worried too but our European 'Passiv Haus' guru has sold us on the heat transfer system (LWZ 170 Plus Ventilation System Australia - Stiebel Eltron).  Seems it constantly sucks air out of the bathrooms, kitchen & laundry and pumps fresh air into the bedroom & living areas - or wherever you install the pipes/vents.   
Getting the moisture out and preventing condensation is a big part of the project, apparently the temperature gradient across walls in standard BV build causes condensation inside the walls. 
I never thought about it, but now I understand why a lot of the insulation I pulled out of the old house was black.  Anyway, you can install gortex style membranes onto both sides of the walls to prevent this... (PRO CLIMA: Air Sealing Solutions - LAROS Technologies)  With ICF I don't think condensation inside the walls will be a problem and the plywood/insulation/plywood sandwich on the roof should let moisture out so I shouldn't need it.  Hard call as it won't be possible to retro fit these products.

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## ToneG

> Hi ToneG, 
> Thanks for your message, I hope I'm not being too brave, I'd like to think that ICF will become mainstream before too long and on Sunday drives through the older suburbs folks will point and say "Look, there's one of those old brick veneer heat sinks!"  But that might still be a while off....

  
Thanks for the diagram Prickles -I get it now  :2thumbsup:

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## mcarthur

> Hi Rob,
> Thanks for the message, good to hear there are some like minded folks in the Capital.
> Like you we won't be taking on all the Laros gear, will strive towards air tight but this will be difficult because we are making the roof (not the ceiling) the thermal boundary.  Not planning to run the vacuum test, will judge the success but the comfort levels and the power bills.
> I look forward to hearing the 'builder story', I have been very lucky to find someone who is taking energy efficiency seriously. 
> Very interested to hear how you get on with your latest project, I haven't had anything to do with SIP construction but my wife researched it and advised it was going to be very costly - but very fast.  Our build is not far from Woden and we are starting on the walls this week (if the rain ever stops) so feel free to come over and take a look if you are toying with the idea of using ICF. 
> Peter

  Hi Peter,
Glad too there are others around the place, perhaps close!
I'll send you a PM with my contact. 
Rob

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## Prickles

After what seems life a lifetime of research and planning we are finally starting to build our AMAZING ICF walls!  In case you have forgotten, ICF stands for 'Insulated Concrete Forms'.  They are polystyrene 'Lego' blocks 1200 long, 300 high and 200 wide - into which we will add some reo and then fill with concrete.  ICF has been around a long time and are very popular in North America and Europe where they know winters are cold and build houses accordingly.  If you google ICF you will mainly find the sandwich or 'Flat Grid' style (basically a solid concrete wall between two polystyrene sheets).  We are using the 'Screen Grid' style, this picture shows what the concrete core looks like in the various styles. 
I get excited about ICF walls because:
1.  They have R3 Thermal resistance - compared to R0.56 for brick veneer (without foils and batts).
2.  They have great acoustic isolation so I won't hear the bogans doing burnouts on dole night.
3.  Three novices can put them up in three days!
    They are also incredibly strong, can withstand cyclones, dead straight so easy to render and Gyprock... the list goes on. 
I may be a little biased but I believe this is the way of the future.

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## Prickles

Enough sales pitch, down to the logistics of building the ICF walls.
Nick and Tim mark out the walls on the slab and Sam (the work experience kid) and I drill and chem-set the N12 starter bars.  One at each corner, either side of the windows and doors.  Then we screw down a 64mm galvanised channel to give the exact position of the bricks.  
The blocks are light and easy to work with.  I have followed the examples found on other blogs in this forum and knocked up a basic hot-wire to cut blocks, it can also be cut with hand saws and power tools.  In no time we are up to the level of the lintels.  Here is a photo of Tim looking like he has been skiing. 
The Canberra winter has not been kind to us and we have had some wet cold days.  With the walls getting tall enough to be moved by the wind we had to start screwing in the braces.  In the garage this was not a problem HOWEVER I don't want and screw holes in my beautiful polished concrete floor and especially not into my PXE hydronics hoses, so we need to be very careful where we drill into the slab. 
This is how the walls look at the end of the second day!  Not bad for 3.5 novices working with ICF for the first time!
I just hope that last carton of blocks is going to be enough to finish the remaining walls...

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## Prickles

To avoid hitting my PEX hydronics pipes I took a series of photos covering every section of the slab, each photo includes two reference tape measures and all photos referenced into an X/Y grid.  Before drilling I checked the photos then measured the distance from the edge of the slab to make sure we were away from the pipes.  Then Nick re-measured just to be doubly sure. 
Try to imagine that gut wrenching feeling when the drill bit suddenly dropped by 16mm and spat out white plastic shavings... "Golly" I said, "...what a jolly disappointment" 
OK fellow renovators, I need your help... how the hell do I fix a punctured PEX?  A google search found this option but I really don't want to be digging up the slab.  I'm thinking a rubber plug like they use in tubeless tire puncture repairs... 
...and then a chemset plug. 
I'd be grateful for any suggestions/advice/sympathy...

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## mcarthur

When our hydronics went in (out of Canberra towards the coast), the installer said that either you have to chip out a decent hole and put in a new piece properly, or isolate that entire circuit. If you don't replace it with good pipe, you'll end up with a continuous wet spot in the concrete.
Sorry... :No:  
And  I remember the same thing on grand designs years ago, in Scotland, and they had to dig holes in the concrete to fix.

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## Belair_Boy

> Try to imagine that gut wrenching feeling when the drill bit suddenly dropped by 16mm and spat out white plastic shavings... "Golly" I said, "...what a jolly disappointment"

  BUGGER .... I feel your pain.  
All I can suggest is a rug or furniture to cover the patch in the concrete.  The repair is not something you want to take shortcuts on. 
The walls are looking good.  Make sure you support the ICF lintels well before you pour.
Why did you chemset starter bars in and then wire on the full height bars rather than just chemset in the vertical bars directly?
I know you have to lift all the blocks over the bars but you do save some time and the lap length of reo.  
Not a criticism, just interested in your reasoning.  I did three with wiring on the verticals and chemsetting in the last. 
I take it you are not filling the first course of blocks pre pour, how are you stopping block lift? 
Keep up the good work, I will be watching with interest.

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## Prickles

> Make sure you support the ICF lintels well before you pour.
> Why did you chemset starter bars in and then wire on the full height bars rather than just chemset in the vertical bars directly?
> I know you have to lift all the blocks over the bars but you do save some time and the lap length of reo.  
> Not a criticism, just interested in your reasoning.  I did three with wiring on the verticals and chemsetting in the last. 
> I take it you are not filling the first course of blocks pre pour, how are you stopping block lift?

  Hi Belair Boy, always good to hear from you! 
being novices we pretty much followed the manufactures specs verbatim... it said '600mm starter bars 150' into the slab so that's what we did. 
Not sure I follow you on 'filling the first course" and the mention of "block lift" is causing alarm... I've got a full lap of horizontal reo sitting on top the first course and I'm hoping that will keep everything in place.  Is there something else I should be doing?  I better re-read your blog. 
Cheers

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## Belair_Boy

> being novices we pretty much followed the manufactures specs verbatim... it said '600mm starter bars 150' into the slab so that's what we did.

  No worries, that is what I did at the start.  Things have evolved with ICF and new ideas are being introduced all the time.  I started by hammering the starter bars into drilled holes. When I went to chemical anchoring, I used full height vertical bars.   

> Not sure I follow you on 'filling the first course" and the mention of "block lift" is causing alarm... I've got a full lap of horizontal reo sitting on top the first course and I'm hoping that will keep everything in place.  Is there something else I should be doing?  I better re-read your blog.

  When I started ICF, it was common practice to fill the first course of blocks with concrete before constructing the walls and this is what I still do.  I don't use the metal starting channel but I do use polyurethane gun foam to stick the first course of blocks down in the correct place.  This combination gives me a solid and immovable start to the wall. 
If you try and fill ICF blocks that are not restrained, they will try and float up on the concrete.  If you get concrete under a block it will not go back down.  I use the combination of gun foam and bracing to hold the wall structure together and prevent block lift (most of the time). 
Is your first course of horizontal reinforcing sitting on the web of the blocks?  I always locate my horizontal reinforcing centrally within the concrete beam and as such it would do nothing to stop the blocks lifting.   
Block lifting generally occurs in upper layer blocks without anything holding them down but I would hate to see it happen at the bottom under the first course where the concrete hydraulic pressure is greatest.  I guess there is not much difference between your first course and my second course except that there is no empty "notches" in the bottom of the blocks for the incoming concrete to get under and I would stick the blocks together. 
There are many ways to do things and what I do has just evolved from my experience.  At the end of the day if you end up with a concrete wall insulated with polystyrene then it doesn't matter how you arrived there. 
Good luck with the pour.

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## Prickles

Choosing between the three big ICF providers (Zego, Thermacell & Insulbrick) was a hard choice and I left it until the eleventh hour.  They all have their pros and cons but one of the tipping factors for a novice trying to get his head around this relatively new technology was Insulbrick's lintels.  Early in the process Nick was asking about metal lintels for the windows and doors but a quick reading of the specs revealed then none was needed as the ICF can span up to 6 metres.
With Insulbrick the lintels are made from a special 'U' shaped form which fit around 6mm 'C' shaped bars connecting two reo bars.  The other two flavours use normal forms with a pine board underneath to keep the concrete inside.   
This reo sits inside the lintel form and holds up the roof.
The polystyrene form will not support the weight of the wet concrete and has to be braced with pine.

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## Prickles

The concrete pour is scheduled for Thursday and there is a hundred and one things to do.   
Tim and Nick are doing an awesome job of framing up the windows and doors and I want to get conduits into the ICF while it is still hollow.  Most ICF builds channel the services into the polystyrene, but I figure a few conduits won't displace too much concrete.  I also want to get a conduit into the top of all the lentils so if we decide to install electric shutters we can easily run power to the motors (the last place I lived had electric shutters on every window and it just made so much sense.  Security, privacy and temperature control all in one switch and no need for curtains or blinds). 
Made several circuits of the walls armed with the expanding foam gun to plug up all the gaps.  The foam is incredibly strong and held in the weight of the concrete at the bottom layer. 
Luckily for me Tim's partner is away caving with school kids for the week so Tim is happy to work back until 8.30 the night before the pour to get everything done.  The forms look like they are ready for filling... 
Notice the pine boards the braces are fixed onto.  This is because we don't want holes in our beautiful polished concrete floor.  The down side is bracing is not as strong as it might be so there is a chance the walls may topple into the yard...  Never a dull moment!

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## Prickles

I'm at my best at about 10AM and my day doesn't start until I've had two coffees and a croissant, so I never ceased to be amazed by those in the business who arrive onsite at 7AM with batteries fully charged and ready to go before sunrise. 
So after about six years of planning an ICF house I should be the first one to arrive the day the walls are poured but when I turn up at 7.30 Pablo the concreter and the pump team are already there and setting up. 
Despite the late night there is still a few things to square away before the concrete truck arrives, including the power & data box recesses, fortunately Tim is all over it.  I should be worried, but I know there is a great team here so when the truck arrives it all just happens.  One of the pump team, 'Stretch', has pumped into walls before so he makes sure the consistency of the mud and the speed of the pump are just right.   
We start with the bottom of the windows and work our way around the walls. 
The mix pours in beautifully and no sign of a problem with the lower layers, the expanding foam is holding and every thing is going well.... until... 
There are three minor 'blow-outs' - all adjacent to lintels.  We have cut out the 'bridges' (polystyrene arch inside the blocks) to accommodate the lintel reo, but failed to brace the sides of the block where the bridges are missing.  With hindsight it's ICF 101, but not until the blocks start to bulge does this oversight become obvious.
Fortunately we have some pine blocks on hand a some spare 300mil screws to get the blowout under control. 
By about 11.30 we have pumped 12 M3 of concrete and filled to walls without serious mishap.  Last week the wind could move the walls, now they are rock solid.  R3 walls up in a week, gotta love ICF!

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## Belair_Boy

> By about 11.30 we have pumped 12 M3 of concrete and filled to walls without serious mishap.  Last week the wind could move the walls, now they are rock solid.  R3 walls up in a week, gotta love ICF!

  CONGRATULATIONS  :Biggrin:  Great job, well done. :2thumbsup:  
I know all too well the sleepless night before the pour going through the list of all the things you may have forgotten to do, but at the end of the day it is very satisfying to have all the walls poured successfully.  A few minor blowouts is good going and with 45mm of foam to make adjustments with, you will never know they happened.

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## Prickles

> at the end of the day it is very satisfying to have all the walls poured successfully.

  Thanks for the message Belair Boy, you are right about the sleepless night, but it is such a huge relief when the pump folds up to leave and you have all your walls standing. 
Thanks also for you advice along the way, I can not believe I once thought of building the walls without braces - what was I thinking?!  Thanks for pointing out the dangers in such clear terms. 
and also thanks for you awesome blog that has inspired at least one punter to have a go.

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## Prickles

> Try to imagine that gut wrenching feeling when the drill bit suddenly dropped by 16mm and spat out white plastic shavings... "Golly" I said, "...what a jolly disappointment"

  Crunch time came when Nick and Tim started to build the stud walls, the main wall is going to sit on top of the punctured PEX tube so it's time to confront my demons... 
We have searched the net for PEX fixes and found a very well documented site that had a similar problem here but I couldn't source the sleeve they used and calling around the suppliers didn't find any solutions other than 'insert a joining piece'.
Taking the usual 'how hard can it be?' approach it found a 13mm irrigation connector in the shed and a spare length of PEX and joined them very successfully with a bit of heat gun action.  The result looked very promising. 
Beautiful right?  The 'T' piece is only in the photo to give you and idea of what I used.  This isn't the recommended joining method, but we are only moving warm water and this is on the return leg so most of the heat will have been transferred into the slab so I'm confident the will work... 
I cut out the damaged section and heat up the end to insert the 58 cent connector... 
In reality it is not so easy to join the PEX ends, it is very hard pipe and after several frustrating attempts it looks like this... 
The PEX has three layers and the inner layer is scrunched up and there is no way it will ever pass water. 
By now several hours have passed and things are getting desperate, time to resort to plan 'B'.  I dig the hole out a bit further to get access to PEX that has not been damaged in the process and pick up another connector and a can of Bog from Bunnings.  I use a short length of garden variety hose which is a lot more flexible and join the PEX pipes.  My reasoning is we are only passing warm water, not nuclear waste, so I'm going to give this a go.  Just in case it does leak I'm burying it in a sea of Bog. 
"Tah Dah!"  the last step.  This is not my finest hour, but desperate times call for desperate measures.  With 500gms of building Bog around the join I'm hoping this will all become a distant memory and not a wet patch under the wall.

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## JHC86

Should have got a plumber to fix it mate. Any sort of contamination in the lines from the Bog can ruin your very expensive pump and heat exchanger.....

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## Bloss

:What he said:  
Prickles - That is simply not an acceptable fix. DIY is fine, but not if its' DIY 'Dodgy Brothers' work! This is YOUR house mate - aside from that fix being non-compliant with any standards at all you will be a) guaranteed to have a leak b) probably bugger the heating system too; c) will have to cut it all open again and fix it properly. 
There are PEX joiners and you should undo all that rubbish you have done and do it properly. Not doing so will definitely end in much greater future trouble.

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## Prickles

> Prickles - That is simply not an acceptable fix. DIY is fine, but not if its' DIY 'Dodgy Brothers' work! This is YOUR house mate - aside from that fix being non-compliant with any standards at all you will be a) guaranteed to have a leak b) probably bugger the heating system too; c) will have to cut it all open again and fix it properly. 
> There are PEX joiners and you should undo all that rubbish you have done and do it properly. Not doing so will definitely end in much greater future trouble.

  
Hi Bloss & JHC86, 
Wow guys, always happy to get feedback.   
I'm a technical personal and like to get down to science of things so I'd be grateful for your advice... 
1.  What standards apply to hydronics tubing? 
2.  What would a plumber do differently? 
The bottom line is these pipes are moving warm water, not nuclear waste  of liquid nitrogen.  This join is on the return leg so most of the  energy will be dissipated into the slab by the time the water reaches  it.  The temperature of the water will be about the same as that in a  garden hose on a summer's day, surely that doesn't require military  specification fittings.
 The water in the pipes will be SLIGHTLY pressurised by a small pump to  move it around the tubing.  IF there is a leak water will go outwards,  nothing is going to get into the circuit in same way air does not get  INTO a car tube with a puncture.
Also, hardened epoxy is a very stable compound used to seal both power and communications  cables for decades, if there is a history of contaminates leaching out  of the epoxy into the water then I would be very interested in reading  about them so please post the links.
Bear in mind, the hydronics is a closed system and the water moves from  the plastic pipes into the copper heat exchange via the manifolds and  pumps and nowhere else. 
I thank you for your feedback but I would like to know why you harbor these concerns, I look forward to hearing more. 
If you are correct in your predictions and the system catastrophically  fails as a result of this join then I will fess up and post photos of  the disaster, until then I am quite confident this is a working system.

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## droog

> Also, hardened epoxy is a very stable compound used to seal both power and communications   cables for decades, if there is a history of contaminates leaching out   of the epoxy into the water then I would be very interested in reading   about them so please post the links.

   
I  would check that what you have used is an epoxy resin rather than a polyester resin before making the comparison, my understanding is that epoxy resins are much more durable than polyester resin. I have no idea if "PlastiBond" is suitable for the application in this case.

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## Prickles

> I  would check that what you have used is an epoxy resin rather than a polyester resin before making the comparison, my understanding is that epoxy resins are much more durable than polyester resin. I have no idea if "PlastiBond" is suitable for the application in this case.
>  [/COLOR][/LEFT]

  Hi Droog, 
you are right, PlastiBond is a Polyester resin and my reading confirms that epoxy is much stronger than polyester resins (8 times according to one source), however the Selley's web site states "SELLEYS PLASTI-BOND  Heavy Duty Bog can be used: to support heavy loads, fill holes, cracks  and splits in a variety of surfaces including metal, timber, brick,  fibre cement, fibreglass, concrete, plaster, many plastics, alloys,  tiles, ceramics...etc"   Technical Data and performance also states:  Service Temperature Limits 28°C to +190°C and 'Resistant to fresh and salt water, acids, alkalis, oils' 
So while an epoxy resin would have been a better choice the polyester is only being used to form an external barrier should any water manage to get past the joins. 
To put the conversion into perspective, we are striving for a passive house that should not require heating so there is a very good chance the hydronics will never be used.  We will be moving in mid summer and will not be making a decision on the need for hydronics until we have experienced the winter of 2015.  If we agree it is needed we will look at installing a heat exchange and pumps for the following winter.  If the join does leak you may not learn about it until the winter of 2016.  
I thank everyone who has posted, these debates are what makes this such a great forum.

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## JHC86

Mate, I work for a plumbing supplies and I see this kind of thing all the time. For the money involved in one of these systems, I personally, don't think it would be worth it to do a bodge-job repair. The piping and fitting systems are designed specifically to not allow any air into the lines, as when air does get in it can cause "air locks" which can ruin a system. Not to mention the chance of any other contaminants getting in now. What you have done may be a short term repair, but in my experience, it won't last.  
While its not my job to tell you to get it fixed properly, I really hope that you do. 
Good luck.

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## Prickles

Well a busy three weeks seem to have flown by so it's time to update the blog.  Since the wall were poured a lot has happened... 
I've  put down the Extruded insulation right around the slab to stop heat  leaking out from beneath the slab into the cold adjacent ground. 
I've used the father/son team from Clarence Excavations a few time now and highly recommend them.  While they were moving the pile of dirt left over from the original earthworks back insulation I got them to dig in a trench for the mains, water and telecommunications.
Meanwhile the Dynamic Duo (Tim & Nick) made a start on the internal walls.

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## Prickles

A couple of days later the steel beam arrived for the small 'Al Fresco' area outside.  Fortunately we were able to use the neighbor's drive way which saved lugging it down the side of the house.
Friday July 11 the trusses arrived on the biggest truck yet.  Nick got this great 'Selfie' before they were lifted onto the walls.. 
I'm not too sure what I expected but the Dynamic Duo had the lot unloaded, 
Dragged into place, 
And installed into place, 
In about four hours flat!  I was impressed.

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## Prickles

OK - there is nothing special about installing trusses, the next energy efficient feature is a big 'Esky Lid'. 
Batons are nailed 250mm below the top of the truss then 3mm ply is nailed to the batons to form the bottom layer of the sandwich.  
Next: R6 Earthwool bats are carefully placed between the trusses on top of the 3mm ply. 
The the top of the sandwich (12mm ply) is nailed to the top of the truss to make it solid. 
But wait... there's more!  The entire esky lid is then wrapped in a Gortex coat to keep water out but let vapour escape upwards and keep the whole interior dry.  This prevents the condensation problem shown in the diagram above. 
So the whole thing should form an big, beautiful, dry R6 dona to keep warm air inside during winter and keep it out during summer.
It should also let water vapour out but prevent any moisture getting in.

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## Prickles

Here is another shot of the roof to give a better idea of the process.  Nathan is cleaning all the crap off the roof so we can lay the Gortex before knocking off for the day (I don't want the bats to get wet if it rains overnight).   
The gortex sheeting (brand name is SOLITEX EXTASANA) is designed to make an airtight seal and this can be tested with a vacuum door (tho' I doubt I'll go that far).   
The next step is to tape the Solitex to the ICF walls and make it as airtight as possible.  Also I will be installing bats against the gables and stuffing additional insulation into every nook and cranny to ensure there are no cold spots.

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## phild01

Some of the batts look a bit loose with gaps, really should tighten these up a bit, especially as you are doubling these up to have a high R value.

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## Cecile

Goretex!  Knowing how much this costs for clothes, I wonder if the cost of Goretex insulation is prohibitive?

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## Prickles

> Some of the batts look a bit loose with gaps, really should tighten these up a bit, especially as you are doubling these up to have a high R value.

  You are dead right Phild01, there is no point to to all this work and expense if there are gaps and air holes in the batts.  Those are photos from the day they were laid, this week I am going back over the batts and moving them about, fluffing them up and adding additional R2.5 strip in the gaps caused by the trusses. 
I am also slowly working my way around the Solitex taping up all the holes and gaps and trying to get it as airtight as possible.  It might never pass the vacuum test, but I'm keen to get it as close as possible.  It's a labour of love and the tape cost $50 for a 30 metre roll - but - I'm only going to get one shot at this so I'm happy to invest the time (also my time is free!).

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## Prickles

> Goretex!  Knowing how much this costs for clothes, I wonder if the cost of Goretex insulation is prohibitive?

  Hi Cecile, I'm calling it Goretex because everyone knows how it works, I should probably use the trade name Solitex. 
Surprising it isn't prohibitively expensive (compared to energy bills) I'll attach the details from my invoice.  I'll have to buy another five rolls of tape to do all the fiddly bits, but I still think it is a worthwhile investment. 
I should clarify that the Solitex doesn't add much to the R value of the roof, but it does prevent moisture in the air around the roof entering and condensing at the 'Dew Point'.  This in turn leads to mould in the batts.

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## Prickles

Wow!  Suddenly three months have passed with no update - A lot has happened and I work at filling in the gaps.  I have a new found respect/admiration for those of you working in the industry.  After a 10 hour day on the site I just want to get home and slip into a cold beverage.  Writing about the days achievements has not been high on the agenda.

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## Prickles

Colourbond:  Finally we have a roof.  The Gables have been filled in with 'Greenboard' this will give excellent insulation plus I'll put more Earthwool bats inside the end trusses.  The alternative to this approach would be to build the gables out of ICF when the walls were constructed, however, this presents challenges as extra tall bracing is required for the pour and scaffolding is needed to get up to pour into the taller blocks. 
Keeping all the walls at the same level and cladding the gables with greenboard has proved a whole lot cheaper and easier.

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## Prickles

Aug 22: Big beautiful TRIPLE glazed windows arrive from Germany! 
This big beautiful baby weighs in at around 200 Kgs

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## JB1

Can you tell me more about the windows. How you imported it and the cost? 
Also what would double glazing cost here.

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## shauck

I'm a bit interested in the windows too and if you researched any companies here that were a good option.

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## Prickles

> Can you tell me more about the windows. How you imported it and the cost? 
> Also what would double glazing cost here.

  Hi JB1 and shauck, I looked at double glazed U-PVC windows from a company in Melbourne, our quote was around $21K from Sloace Creations who I can highly recommend.  Then we went to see Andreas at 'Laros Technologies' and that was a life changing experience.  After twenty minutes with him we decided to change our goal to a 'Passive' house design (rather than solar passive).  When we saw the display windows we were immediately sold on them. 
The windows are not cheap but we think they are worth it.  We got our windows, fly screens and three doors delivered from Germany for around $40K.  That's going to be more than 10% of the total build cost, but we love them.  With the ICF walls, the R6 roof and the triple glazed windows the house is very close to air tight and virtually sound proof. 
They are also 'tilt & turn' so you can have air flow without opening them.  Everyone who sees them, including the tradies, comment on how good they are.  If you are looking an energy efficient build and you are going to be living in it for a while then I recommend investing in the best possible windows.

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## Prickles

PS - I have heard since that a company in Melbourne has started making triple glazed, but I can't find anything on the web to confirm that.

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## DenisPC9

They are also 'tilt & turn' so you can have air flow without opening them.  Everyone who sees them, including the tradies, comment on how good they are.  If you are looking an energy efficient build and you are going to be living in it for a while then I recommend investing in the best possible windows.[/QUOTE] 
Great Post & pix 
Spot on.  I built here in Tenterfield using Thermacell ICFs.  I used the blocks for my Footings as well, so the insulation goes right into the ground.  I bought my windows (DG) from Thermaglaze, they use German technology.  Using ICFs and DG Windows blew the socks off the few Trades I used, Slab, Roof. 
The Tilt & Turn mode is great.  Last Summer during the heatwaves we had, it hit ~38C here.  I used the Tilt facility on my windows for airflow and that kept the internal temp between 23 - 26C.  My heating is a woodfire (small country town ;-) and during the colder months I keep the internal temp around 19C whilst the outside temp is ~2C - -10C.

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## shauck

Awesome info. Thanks Prickles. Will check them out

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## woodbe

+1 for German engineered and built double glazed windows. Our house has a lot of windows, it took two goes at it to completely replace the pitiful excuse for windows installed in the 1970's by the previous owner. Tilt and turn is a very effective alternative to the awning style windows they replaced, especially upstairs where cleaning used to require a ladder and a very brave window cleaner - now we can easily do it ourselves.

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## CraigandKate

I should not look at this thread, it is going to send me broke! But seriously keep the information coming I am very interested in the passive designs you are incorporating!

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## shauck

> I should not look at this thread, it is going to send me broke!

  I hear you.

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## Prickles

> I should not look at this thread, it is going to send me broke! But seriously keep the information coming I am very interested in the passive designs you are incorporating!

  Hi CraigandKate, 
thanks for the feedback/comments, always good to hear from others.  The build has not been THAT expensive (okay that windows are a big ticket item but double glazing would also be great) I can't give out any numbers as I am not good at the accounting side but the build SHOULD come in under $350K which is not far off a 'biscuit cutter' house price.  Windows aside, I believe the components which will give the biggest returns are not that expensive.  The ICF walls, the layer of R6 in the roof and the wrapping are going to make a huge difference to the performance of the house.

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## Prickles

> Spot on.  I built here in Tenterfield using Thermacell ICFs.  I used the blocks for my Footings as well, so the insulation goes right into the ground.  I bought my windows (DG) from Thermaglaze, they use German technology.  Using ICFs and DG Windows blew the socks off the few Trades I used, Slab, Roof. 
> The Tilt & Turn mode is great.  Last Summer during the heatwaves we had, it hit ~38C here.  I used the Tilt facility on my windows for airflow and that kept the internal temp between 23 - 26C.  My heating is a woodfire (small country town ;-) and during the colder months I keep the internal temp around 19C whilst the outside temp is ~2C - -10C.

  Sounds like an awesome build DenisPC9, you gotta be very happy with that outcome.

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## Prickles

Plumbing 'Rough-in' and conduits through the ICF Blocks:   
Belair Boy has done an excellent job of documenting this process on his blog, basically the process is pretty easy - you remove enough polystyrene to run your conduits/pipes.  There is a few ways to do this, the best and easiest is with a hot wire (see Belair Boys' blog or watch this U-Tube video then check out these tools) or you can just cut the foam out with a knife OR you can use a router.  The router makes a nice clean cut but be sure to use the vacuum attachment as it makes a hell of a mess. 
This is an photo of a failed fitting, we should have cut down to the concrete core and fix a piece of wood to give a strong fixing point.  All part of the learning process.

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## Prickles

Back to the windows: 
The windows are fixed into a pine reveal then lifted into the opening.  Spacers are used to get it level then it's drilled and screwed into the concrete core.  Attachment 102775 
Then to make them airtight expanding foam is sprayed into the gap between the reveal and the wall.  Once that has expanded and dried it is trimmed flush and the window is taped with the special kick-butt tape.  I also ran a bead of sealant between the window and the reveal to make sure no heat gets out - or in - when the windows are closed.    Attachment 102776 
If you are making an investment in double or triple glazed windows you want to ensure they can do their job.  I've been to rental properties where the agent was banging on about the double glazing, but I could see daylight between the window and the frame... fail!

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## woodbe

Attachments not working  :Frown:  
That's good stuff you're using there, should help make the place airtight. We're using the Siga tape on our window refits. Similar but different brand.

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## DenisPC9

"you can just cut the foam out with a knife OR you can use a router." 
Waste  of time, blow ~ $100.00 on a Bosch Multi-tool with wood blades.  Mine  is a PMF 180E.  It slices through the Poly like a hot knife through  butter.  It speeds up cutting channels etc by a massive factor.  After  you have drawn your cutting line, you can cut almost as fast as the  scribing took.  I can get a very accurate line with very little rubbish  being generated.  Also the 40mm blade goes to the concrete base on  Thermacell 200 mm blocks.  Umm buy Ear Protectors ;-). 
What I am doing with the waste poly is throwing it up in the Roof Space as an addition to the Insulation up there. 
Another  tip.  When I bought a 7" circular saw, it came with a T shaped steel  guide (or some sort or another), that is a great tool for levering out  the polystyrene you have cut to be removed. 
Yet another tip.  After the house is sealed and before the Ceiling plaster/whatever goes up, put your Ceiling Batts up and in between the Joists..  How I stopped the Batts from dropping down, due to gravity, was lots of Duct Tape strung between the Joists, the Batts nestled between the Joists, resting on the Duct Tape.  That was a damned site easier than crawling around the Ceiling later, especially down towards the Eaves. 
Yep, my house is  great.  No fire, the WoodFire was taken out so I could lay my Timber  Floor.  Outside 8C, inside 15C, time 08:28. 
I had ThermaGlaze do  my DG and they went around and did the Foam Infill in Window/Building  gaps.  I thought they were a very professional mob.  From my 5600mm  Front Door to my 600x600 toilet and attic windows, it was all very  professionally done.

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## DenisPC9

"I can't give out any numbers as I am not good at the accounting side" 
I built a normal BV house in Fadden more than 30 years ago and ran that project using Lotus 123 to track expenses.  With this one, I used Excel, so I can sort it to cost out the whole Project or just sections.  Sometimes its a bit of a hassle being it up to date but its worth it.

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## woodbe

> I had ThermaGlaze do  my DG and they went around and did the Foam Infill in Window/Building  gaps.

  Had a talk about this with a passivhaus builder a while ago. I've used a lot of foam to fill gaps over the years and there is no doubt it improves things a lot. Passivhaus testing (blower door test)  finds that foam is not airtight. If you want airtight you need to add one of the airtightening tapes to the foamed joins.

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## DenisPC9

> Had a talk about this with a passivhaus builder a while ago. I've used a lot of foam to fill gaps over the years and there is no doubt it improves things a lot. Passivhaus testing (blower door test)  finds that foam is not airtight. If you want airtight you need to add one of the airtightening tapes to the foamed joins.

  I then box framed my Windows inside (and will do the same outside) silicon beading the edges.  Then Gyprocked up to the Frames and gap filled with a normal spakfilla stuff any cracks between the Plaster and Frame.  So the chances of any airflow through the foam have been reduced twice.

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## woodbe

First Passive House in PA, Designed to Exceed Passivhaus Standards: Spray Foam to Seal Air Leaks for Airtight Passive House 
I'm sure you have a better than average seal, and not being critical. Just pointing out that if you want airtight then the process is easily researched and in the scale of housebuilding costs a membrane and tape on the joins is the proven system and not that much extra. The ventilation system however...  :Wink:

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## chateaushutters

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## DenisPC9

> First Passive House in PA, Designed to Exceed Passivhaus Standards: Spray Foam to Seal Air Leaks for Airtight Passive House 
> I'm sure you have a better than average seal, and not being critical. Just pointing out that if you want airtight then the process is easily researched and in the scale of housebuilding costs a membrane and tape on the joins is the proven system and not that much extra. The ventilation system however...

  Not taken as criticism, taken as info.  Ventilation?   with Tilt and Turn, I just use the Tilt facility, that opens the top some 120mm+.  Do so Dunny, back of house; B2 back of house; B1 RH side; Lounge LH side.  That with the occasional door opening to get in and out seems to keep the airflow going and the heat/coolth in (as appropriate). 
So far its worked over 2 Winters and 1 Summer.

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## PenderleaBurrow

Hi there. I am a Canberra based icf builder too and am interested in how you have flashed your windows.
Greg.

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## Prickles

Hi Greg, 
sorry to take so long to reply, I'm now in the final fit-out stages and regret I have neglected this site as time is a bit of a premium... 
Where are you up to with the build?  Have you flashed the windows yet? 
I would be interested to hear more about the build, with Canberra's cold winters I don't understand why all houses aren't ICF.  Where are you building?

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