# Forum Home Renovation Heating & Cooling  Revisit topic:  Split systems and we're still cold

## Cecile

I have just revisited my thread on split systems that are not warm  enough.  I've tried all the suggestions in there, and despite that in the middle of winter my worst fears are realised and even  through trial and error with the temperature, I'm constantly cold.   The biggest issue with these units is of course that the thermostat probe is in the unit itself, up near the ceiling, and of course we don't live on the ceiling.   
I will of course ring the supplier to have a chat, but I'm wondering if anyone knows whether there is an after market upgrade to these things that allows a remote thermostat?  In a simplistic view, at least with a thermostat at human level the units will continue to run until the air is at the correct temperature.   
Thanks for any input.

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## phild01

Wondered this as well but resigned to constantly readjusting the remotes temp.

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## Uncle Bob

My Split has a wireless remote so it can go anywhere. I would've thought that most if not all these day had wireless remotes.
BTW we use gas for heating as the cycling on and off is uncomfortable when the machine is blowing air that isn't being heated.

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## METRIX

> My Split has a wireless remote so it can go anywhere. I would've thought that most if not all these day had wireless remotes.
> BTW we use gas for heating as the cycling on and off is uncomfortable when the machine is blowing air that isn't being heated.

  Same here, I hate split system in the WInter. 
Do you have a ceiling fan you can put into winter mode to push the hot air back down to the floor ?

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## phild01

Yes, I too use gas heating in combination with the split.

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## Cecile

> Do you have a ceiling fan?

  No ceiling fans, and Ted's nervous about them, always feeling like they are going to whack him in the head (our ceilings are 2700.) 
I rather suspect that a  gas ducted system is on the cards.  We can always put on more jumpers in winter, but summer cooling is critical for medical reasons, which is the main reason why we went with the splits.  Adding the cost of two systems together, we probably could have gone with reverse cycle ducted for a similar cost.

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## Uncle Bob

Those Nest thermostats sound pretty cool (excuse pun).

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## Cecile

> Those Nest thermostats sound pretty cool (excuse pun).

  Do you know if they can be attached to splits?  Need to Google!

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## Smurf

Have you tried turning the fan to high and the temperature right up? 
In many cases there seems to be a reluctance from people to turn it up to a setting that actually heats the room. Eg if it needs to be set to 28 in order to have the room at 22 then just set it to 28. Etc.

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## METRIX

> No ceiling fans, and Ted's nervous about them, always feeling like they are going to whack him in the head (our ceilings are 2700.) 
> I rather suspect that a  gas ducted system is on the cards.  We can always put on more jumpers in winter, but summer cooling is critical for medical reasons, which is the main reason why we went with the splits.  Adding the cost of two systems together, we probably could have gone with reverse cycle ducted for a similar cost.

  Most new fans are around 300mm high, so unless Ted is going to grow to be 2.4m high your fairly safe.  *Ceiling Fan Buying Guide* We've compiled some information below to assist you in selecting a Ceiling Fan for your home.   *Fact:* Ceiling Fans can be used in BOTH Summer and Winter
Ceiling  fans are great for circulating the air in a room. Although they don’t  actually cool the room down, in the summer ceiling fans will create a  cool breeze by spinning in a forward direction (counter clockwise) and  will make your feel considerably more comfortable indoors and outdoors.  However, please remember that ceiling fans cool people - they don't cool  rooms, therefore, consider turning off your ceiling fan when no one is  in the room to conserve energy. 
With most fans, you can  set the blades to rotate in reverse (Clockwise) in winter. This will  force the warm air that is trapped at the ceiling, down into the room to  mix with the cool air. This will warm up your room in winter. For best  effect in winter, keep your fan on low speed.  *TIP:* Check  to make sure that the Ceiling Fan you’re buying comes with a reversible  motor that allows you change between the summer and winter option.   *TIP:* You  can also use the reversible modes of a Ceiling Fan to disperse the air  according to your needs. Clockwise spinning will generate a breeze  directly under the ceiling fan where as Counter-Clockwise spinning will  disperse the breeze to the edges of the room     *Efficiency*
The  efficiency of a ceiling fan, especially in a warm climate like  Australia, can have a large influence on the electric bill. You can save  a lot of money and enjoy increased performance from your ceiling fan by  choosing an energy efficient ceiling fan. Efficiency in ceiling fans is  measured by the amount of airflow generated per wattage of Power  consumed. This is measured in (m3/h)/W (cubic metres per hour per Watt).  Below are the results of testing done by Hunter Pacific to compare the  efficiency of some common Australian Ceiling Fans:

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## Uncle Bob

> Do you know if they can be attached to splits?  Need to Google!

  IIRC correctly, only some out of the box. I must admit I've only read about them on the other [s]beard[/s] board of knowledge, WP.

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## JB1

> My Split has a wireless remote so it can go anywhere. I would've thought that most if not all these day had wireless remotes.
> BTW we use gas for heating as the cycling on and off is uncomfortable when the machine is blowing air that isn't being heated.

  I think all split systems have a wireless remote to control the split. 
However Cecile is asking if you can have a remote thermostat for the system to read the temp at a location other than the head. 
I exclusively have split systems for heating/cooling. I find that it sometimes blows cool air (defrosting) but for the most part it is fine. 
I'm in Melb has it has been freezing lately. The lower the temp the less effective reverse cycle air conditioning is. Overall I'm happy with it and have no regrets not installing gas heating, however I admit gas ducted and hydronic heating a nicer heat.

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## woodbe

> *Efficiency*
> The  efficiency of a ceiling fan, especially in a warm climate like  Australia, can have a large influence on the electric bill. You can save  a lot of money and enjoy increased performance from your ceiling fan by  choosing an energy efficient ceiling fan. Efficiency in ceiling fans is  measured by the amount of airflow generated per wattage of Power  consumed. This is measured in (m3/h)/W (cubic metres per hour per Watt).  Below are the results of testing done by Hunter Pacific to compare the  efficiency of some common Australian Ceiling Fans:

  They didn't include the Aerotron DC fans in their comparo:  
Of course they cost more up front, but they are also very quiet.

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## JB1

Oh yeah, what brand and size split and room do you have?  
Which angle is the fan blowing?

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## justonething

Comfort is not based on air temperature alone, In fact the majority of comfort is based on radiant temperature of the objects surrounding you. E.g. radiant heaters make you feel warm sitting outdoors even air is cold. 
In your situation,  the largest objects around the room are the walls, ceiling and the floor. And because split system delivery air temperature is quite low, the wall temperature doesn't rise high enough to provide the level of comfort that is adequate. Ceiling and floor doesn't do as much unless you're constant lying down. The problem is more acute in the southern part of Australia where outside air and sky temperature is quite a bit colder than NSW for example. 
Solution: The most obvious solution is to raise the delivery air temperature by installing gas heating, and you probably wouldn't use the split system for heating anymore. 
Alternative Solution: Insulate your walls. This would reduce the heat loss through the walls and in doing so, the wall temperature will be raised high enough for you to feel comfortable with the split system air delivery. I have done that in one part of my house where a reverse cycle is the only form of heating. Before insulating the wall, I always feel kind of cold despite the room is measuring 21 deg. After insulating the walls with batts (the roof was always insulated), I feel quite comfortable with the room being at 18 deg. At 21 deg, I actually feel a bit hot. 
Ceiling fan will not raise the wall temperature unless the room is obviously unevenly heated and therefore not making it more comfortable with a split system but may do so if you put in a gas heater in the room (not ducted heating). 
I personally chose the insulate the room because (1) I can do that myself (2) running cost for heating will be lower and (3) It actually becomes quite a comfortable living space in both winter and summer.

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## Smurf

This one has me somewhat puzzled. 
Looking at the BOM data, temperature for Geelong hasn't been below 4 degrees this month and the lowest recorded for this Winter so far is 2. So a bit cool yes, but nothing really drastic. And the days seem to be quite reasonable too, with one exception it has reached over 10 degrees every day and most of them seem to be 13 - 16. 
So it should be able to work satisfactorily based on that. Why isn't working well I'm really not sure. 
That said, personally I do prefer a combination of radiant and convected heat. It's the best way to be warm certainly, especially if it's zero outside. Either a wood heater or a big gas or electric heater which blows hot air as well as glowing red hot. Air temperature 21 + radiant heat source in the lounge room = nice and toasty warm. :Smilie:

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## Cecile

> This one has me somewhat puzzled. 
> Looking at the BOM data, temperature for Geelong hasn't been below 4 degrees this month and the lowest recorded for this Winter so far is 2. So a bit cool yes, but nothing really drastic. And the days seem to be quite reasonable too, with one exception it has reached over 10 degrees every day and most of them seem to be 13 - 16. 
> So it should be able to work satisfactorily based on that. Why isn't working well I'm really not sure. 
> That said, personally I do prefer a combination of radiant and convected heat. It's the best way to be warm certainly, especially if it's zero outside. Either a wood heater or a big gas or electric heater which blows hot air as well as glowing red hot. Air temperature 21 + radiant heat source in the lounge room = nice and toasty warm.

  Smurf, part of the reason is that I have lost a LOT of weight (and I mean a LOT, up to 50kg, unsure of the actual number but it's close to that) and I'm still losing.  It should hopefully settle down.  *justonething*, you're reasonably new here so may not have been following Moondog's or my posts.  Insulation is very important.  We have been insulating rooms as we get to them, and it does make a huge difference.

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## woodbe

What temps do you see coming out of the split system? 
We have a ducted system and it puts out over 30C, even the longest duct shows 29C at the outlet.

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## Cecile

> What temps do you see coming out of the split system? 
> We have a ducted system and it puts out over 30C, even the longest duct shows 29C at the outlet.

  We haven't actually measured it.  I think the biggest issue is a combilation of vertical fins that don't swing, and cold spots.  It's a challenging winter for sure.  I never thought I would miss the old Coonara, but I do!

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## phild01

Nothing beats a wood heater.  Even here I miss the heat of the one I had to remove.

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## r3nov8or

This situation is a concern. Our split system, while being unprefered as we also have gas in the same area, would keep dinner warm on the table if we pumped it up enough. Often use it is for a quick burst of heat throughout the kitchen, dining and living area, either because we only need 15 minutes, or while the gas log heater gets going. 
by the way Cecile, great work on the weight loss!

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## Smurf

> Nothing beats a wood heater.  Even here I miss the heat of the one I had to remove.

  +1 
Here in Tas the cheap means of heating a house is either wood or a heat pump (Tassie term for what's known everywhere else in Australia as a reverse cycle air-conditioner). Everything else costs considerably more and in the case of gas availability is quite limited down here to only certain areas. 
But there's no shortage of people who kept their wood heater when they put the heat pump in. Use the heat pump Monday to Friday, then fire up the wood heater on the weekend or if it's exceptionally cold during the week. Quite a lot of people do that. 
As for heaters in general, well I've used most types at some time. If it's wasn't for the cost of LPG down here then I'd go for gas certainly. The older type gas heaters with the square panels at the front heat well and are convenient too. But with electricity here at 14 cents / kWh (much cheaper than Vic) and LPG costing 24 cents / kWh at 80% efficiency it's cheaper to use electricity and the great big 7kW radiant / convection heater in the lounge room that came with the house is _almost_ as good as gas with the way it heats. Not quite, but it's close enough and cheaper to run. 
Weekdays (evenings only) I run the 7kW heater in the lounge and also have 3.5kW ducted electric to the bedrooms plus another 2.5kW radiant / convection heater in the second living area near the kitchen. Came home tonight, it was 9 degrees inside, turned the whole lot on (all 13kW!) and now it's toasty warm. The downside, of course, is the $1.82 per hour cost of running it all flat out but then it's only for a few hours and only on weeknights. 
On the weekends I run the wood fire. It heats the main part of the house directly, and heats the bedrooms via the same ducts as the electric system. Light it in the morning and it runs all day with only a few more bits of wood put in of an evening. 
Someday I might get a heat pump. But I like the way the wood fire heats and I like the way the current electric heater works too - much nicer heat than a box on the wall. With wood at $130 per tonne and electricity at 14 cents / kWh and the house empty all day during the week, the overall saving isn't enough to have made me switch thus far.

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## Brian7886

Remote/relocatable return air thermistor -  
A 'modificiation' which I've personally dont to some systems is lengthen the wire (just an ordinary figure 8 type) from the indoor unit, down the wall a little, re-attaching (by soldering together wires) the thermistor itself. This way the air temp is picked up at sitting/standing height.  
Remember that hot air rises, the ideal way of heating a space up is to blow the air downward, and outward. When the unit sucks this air back it will be at ceiling height yes, but it will be also blending with cold air simultaneously. The cool air will be forever dropping into the hot airs path, as well as being heated through the actual air con itself.  
Remember the variables. Underfloor/above ceiling insulation, good thermal coverings over glass. Minimising AS MUCH influence on the room as possible of cold air is key.  
Proper sizing is the most important. Too small you'll just never get it right.  
Some brands have an actual setting on their remote control that actually disables the return air sensor and brings into play a sensor built into the remote. You would turn this setting on and sit the remote beside you in order to have the unit checking for temps from that exact point. Fujitsu DO NOT have this IIRC. Not many brands do in fact.  
We rarely get many complaints about units not doing the job. But we refuse to sell or install systems that arent big enough or not suitable, without the client signing an agreement that anything that is against our recommendation will have no come backs if its not performing.  
Another thing to consider is the manufacturers operation specifications. Some brands might list them as something between 2degress-40degress. Anything above or below and the unit is not expected to perform well. (due to outdoor units conditions, as i explained in the other thread).

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## Random Username

> ... feel free to send any questions to info@liquidtransition.com.au

  No, we'll ask questions here and you can answer them here, that way we can contrast the product specific marketing fluff with real world experiences and the occasional actual fact* and it's not just a cheap shot ad for your business. 
*AKA "Call out bull@@@@ where appropriate".

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## Brian7886

hey guys wondering how you are going with ya units. As i mentioned before ive recently become an authorised Fujitsu dealer myself, having spent the last 12 year installing and servicing them as well. Im currently designed a few systems for a new flashy house which has limited roof space, so ducted was not possible.  
Are you able to send me, or post up, the model number of the outdoor unit, and the model numbers of all the indoor units connected to this 1 unit.  
Thanks guys.

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## Cecile

> model number

  Brian, I have to first find the paperwork, probably later today.   
We just received our first winter electricity bill and nearly fell over.  Usage was over $1000 for the quarter.  I truly believe that this particular style of heating is not suitable for this house.  The location of the thermostat in the units close to the ceiling creates cold spots everywhere, and running them at 24C nearly 24/7 simply to keep the floor-level temp at a semi-comfortable level didn't help.  I am not dismissing these units outright for heating, but the thermostat location is definitely a very poor design choice by Fujitsu.  They are very good for cooling, however.

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## METRIX

> Brian, I have to first find the paperwork, probably later today.   
> We just received our first winter electricity bill and nearly fell over.  Usage was over $1000 for the quarter.  I truly believe that this particular style of heating is not suitable for this house.  The location of the thermostat in the units close to the ceiling creates cold spots everywhere, and running them at 24C nearly 24/7 simply to keep the floor-level temp at a semi-comfortable level didn't help.  I am not dismissing these units outright for heating, but the thermostat location is definitely a very poor design choice by Fujitsu.  They are very good for cooling, however.

  I have never been a fan of splits for an effective cost efficient method of heating, Gas is always my first choice then slow combustion, split is my last choice.
Everyone I know with splits ends up with huge electricity bills during the winter.

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## Brian7886

With the air sensor you need to remember it is a return air sensor not a room sensor or personal temp sensor. All air cons have this. Ducted systems may have it in front of the evap coil so thats no different.  
Check out your units air flow characteristics. These will be seperarete for heating and cooling. They would show optimum directions, speeds etc. heating you blow down/outwards, cooling you wuld blow outwards.  
The idea of your return air sensor is to metre that air the unit which it is recycling. Just cos it is near the ceiling isnt that much of an issue as it is sucking back air across the room, which would be blending in cold parts too. Ideally it cuts out when there is limited cold parts left.  
In terms of $ for $ for most a well designed split install is cheapest to run, depending on energy costs, gas costs or wood costs.

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## Smurf

> I have never been a fan of splits for an effective cost efficient method of heating, Gas is always my first choice then slow combustion, split is my last choice.
> Everyone I know with splits ends up with huge electricity bills during the winter.

  It really depends on your local energy prices, since they vary hugely across the country. 
Eg Tasmania - electricity 14.9 cents / kWh, natural gas has very limited availability and costs 10.94 cents / kWh (yep, gas is sold by the kWh down here), LPG costs 19.5 cents / kWh, pellets 10 - 13 cents / kWh depending on location (freight cost), firewood varies $80 - $140 depending on when and from whom you buy it. 
In contrast, SA - electricity costs a huge 33 - 40 cents / kWh whilst natural gas is widely available and fairly cheap. Not sure about the cost of LPG or wood in SA or if you can even get pellets there?  
So in Tas, reverse cycle A/C or wood are the cheap ways of heating with pellets, natural gas and direct electric coming next. But in SA, electricity costs $$$ so gas or wood might be cheaper there. 
NSW sits somewhere in the middle of this range, and in Vic gas is cheap. So it's very much a case of where you live as to what's cheapest.

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## shauck

> Brian, I have to first find the paperwork, probably later today.   
> We just received our first winter electricity bill and nearly fell over.  Usage was over $1000 for the quarter.  I truly believe that this particular style of heating is not suitable for this house.

  WOW! $1000 bucks! Admittedly our house is probably a million times smaller than yours and all rooms are easily heated off the one little (smallest size there is) Rinnai gas heater.  
Living room/kitchen is directly next to both bedrooms (doors open into each other) This total area is 36m2. Bathroom is off one bedroom and is another 9m2. This heater will heat all that space. Our last September gas bill was $218.  
You could almost get 5 of these running in your house for the same price (not that you want that sized bill again).  
We run it from 4.30 am to 9pmish (bed time) at about 21-25 deg on the heater. It's comfortable temp here on most winter days except for those really cold ones where it's icy outside and but okay inside. Generally keep the bathroom closed except to heat up room before shower.  
You would get similar temps/weather to us, I imagine. I'm sure two of the same size or next size up would do the trick for a medium sized house. Depends on layout of course.

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## Moondog55

A lot of the problem is we still have air leaks and an entire section of the house uninsulated

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## Brian7886

> WOW! $1000 bucks! Admittedly our house is probably a million times smaller than yours and all rooms are easily heated off the one little (smallest size there is) Rinnai gas heater.  
> Living room/kitchen is directly next to both bedrooms (doors open into each other) This total area is 36m2. Bathroom is off one bedroom and is another 9m2. This heater will heat all that space. Our last September gas bill was $218.  
> You could almost get 5 of these running in your house for the same price (not that you want that sized bill again).  
> We run it from 4.30 am to 9pmish (bed time) at about 21-25 deg on the heater. It's comfortable temp here on most winter days except for those really cold ones where it's icy outside and but okay inside. Generally keep the bathroom closed except to heat up room before shower.  
> You would get similar temps/weather to us, I imagine. I'm sure two of the same size or next size up would do the trick for a medium sized house. Depends on layout of course.

  Yeah your GAS BILL was $200 their electricity bill was $1000, not the use of the air con. Everything. Power lights ovens stoves hot water whatever is connected.  
If using air cons added say $200 to your winter bill that is a fair estimate for a properly designed system. In the house i live in (while renoing too) at themoment we only have a panasonic 8.0kw and a mhi 2.5kw. No ducted in this place unfortunately. My winter bill would be shy of 850 at most. 140sqm of space including using a dryer as we had a very wet winter.  
Feel free to shoot me pics of the area etc abd ill see if there is ways i can help u out

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## phild01

> Yeah your GAS BILL was $200 their electricity bill was $1000, not the use of the air con. Everything. Power lights ovens stoves hot water whatever is connected.  
> If using air cons added say $200 to your winter bill that is a fair estimate for a properly designed system. In the house i live in (while renoing too) at themoment we only have a panasonic 8.0kw and a mhi 2.5kw. No ducted in this place unfortunately. My winter bill would be shy of 850 at most. 140sqm of space including using a dryer as we had a very wet winter.  
> Feel free to shoot me pics of the area etc abd ill see if there is ways i can help u out

  And the temperature you are comfortable with!!
Haven't got my electricity bill yet but I use gas and reverse split.  My gas was $300 including hot water.  Not looking forward to the other bill as I keep a temperature range of 22-24 degrees.

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## JB1

I use reverse cycle splits executively for heating (and cooling) Melbourne. 
9kw Panasonic heating a 50 odd sqm living area from morning to night (wife and kids at home). And then at night 2.5kw Fujitsu split in one or two bedrooms. 
Temp set at 21. 
$500 bill in winter which I thought was reasonable. That includes wife & kids at home. TV always on. We have LED downlights throughout. 
Also remember electricity bills are 3 monthly and gas 2 monthly.

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## shauck

> Yeah your GAS BILL was $200 their electricity bill was $1000, not the use of the air con. Everything. Power lights ovens stoves hot water whatever is connected.  
> If using air cons added say $200 to your winter bill that is a fair estimate for a properly designed system. In the house i live in (while renoing too) at themoment we only have a panasonic 8.0kw and a mhi 2.5kw. No ducted in this place unfortunately. My winter bill would be shy of 850 at most. 140sqm of space including using a dryer as we had a very wet winter.  
> Feel free to shoot me pics of the area etc abd ill see if there is ways i can help u out

  
Yeah ok.  
If I include electricity for that winter, it was 148 bucks. We use gas for heating, hot water and stove. Elec for lights, tv, fridge (not a large one). We are insulated except for underfloor and our floor is pretty old and gappy. Feel the draughts coming through the boards in places. The windows at the front are old sash windows that are a bit rattly in a wind so I wouldn't say we are air tight by any means. Open fireplace would lose some heat too. Hope that builds a picture. Not saying any other method is wrong, just amazed that we get off with small costs. Something to say for living in a small house, not that I'd recommend it.

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## METRIX

We have Gas heating 1 x Rinnai Avenger 25 and 1 x Rinnai Dynamo 15, Gas hot water and cooktop, electric oven and everything else, including every light LED, 3 flatscreens 2 of them on all the time, a lot of automated stuff, various PC's and laptops which are on more than off, 4 bed single story 240m2. 
Gas bills are $125 - $150 in the summer to $280 Max in the winter *per quarter* not bi monthly as mentioned, Electricity $277 to $306 per quarter, we are with AGL, if I ever received a $1000 electricity bill I would not be happy. 
A lot of my mates commonly get $1000 - $1200 quarterly electricity bills, they all think this is normal.

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## Brian7886

But electricity bills will vary greatly depending on houses and families.  
Fridges i run 2. A 447 litre in the house and a 620litre in the garage. 2 air cons. 35 downlights, electric hot water, electric oven, washing machine, dryer, dish washer, plus small appliances i havent got a bill over 850 before.  
If i added a 300 dollar gas bill to a 300 dollar power bill. Me n my kids would live in the dark. This is with origin paying 31 cents.  
All im saying is dollar for dollar efficiency a properly sized air con will always be cheaper to operate. You can heat more space for less is what im saying. My parents use a wood fire, they use 500 in timber a winter. Using their ducted air would be less than a 1/4 of that

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## Moondog55

G'Day Brian
Outside unit is a AOTG 30LBT04 with 4 internal heads All internal heads are installed high up but not further than the nominal 120mm minimum clearance recommended.
Running R410A refrigerant of course.
My own opinion is that when we finally get the house completely stopped up and I refit the air circulation ducting the house will be OK, but I really do miss the Coonara [ which also used $1000- of wood in a cold winter] because firewood costs a bomb here in Geelong

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## METRIX

> A lot of the problem is we still have air leaks and an entire section of the house uninsulated

  I believe this answers the original question ?. 
Until you can stop all the air leaks and insulate then it won't matter what heating you have, it's all just disappearing into the ether heating nothing.

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## Brian7886

> G'Day Brian
> Outside unit is a AOTG 30LBT04 with 4 internal heads All internal heads are installed high up but not further than the nominal 120mm minimum clearance recommended.
> Running R410A refrigerant of course.
> My own opinion is that when we finally get the house completely stopped up and I refit the air circulation ducting the house will be OK, but I really do miss the Coonara [ which also used $1000- of wood in a cold winter] because firewood costs a bomb here in Geelong

  
What are the indoor units. This is the same outdoor unit of a job i just quoted. It had 3 astg09lvcc and 1 astg12lvcc (i think) heads. This was to service 3 bedrooms and a media room. The quote read that it was not designed to cool every room at once, but basically 3 of the 4 would probably be ok. This was due to him not wanting more than 2 outdoor units (also quoted an ASTG34LVCC (i think thats the last part of the number) for the living area, which is a 9.2kw.  
I would imagine unless you have 4x ASTG07LVCC (2.0kw) connected and all running at once, that condenser is pushing @@@@ up hill.  
This is the real issue with multi heads is that you are limited to 8kw of capacity, but spreading that out.  
Idea, turn it on room by room. Get the unit on in the biggest room, let it get warm/cool, then turn another on. This way the requirement of the rooms already on is lower, leaving more in reserve for the other rooms

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## Brian7886

i did a calc today on some air con running costs, a fujitsu r32 model, 7.1kw has a nominal input power rating of about 2.1kW, meaning every hour (depending on set temps/room temps etc) that would be your usage. ie about 60c. This would lower as your air con reaches temps though, which if it cant do in an hour, the unit is under sized.  
You would get close to about 150-160hrs usage to $100. Which is close to 2 hrs a day every day of winter. (not calculating in the wind down times unit where it could be running at about 200w), $200 of electricity would get you up to 4 hrs of usage a day. How far would gas go if you burnt your gas heater 4 hours every single day of winter? Im not being a smart ass, cos i dont know that answer). Everything has its pro's and cons.  
I only have gas connected for a 5 burner cook top. This house was purchased 5.5 years ago and only this afternoon while cooking did i have to go and switch the bottles over. I got those bottles the day i got the house. So for that 1 appliance it took 5.5 year (3 years of rental) to use 1 bottle (the tall thin one). I know gas hot water goes through the juice, im on OP-2 at my place and my Off Peak bill is like 80 bucks a quarter. I know people with rinnai hot water systems and going through a bottle or 2 a winter. Bugger that

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## Moondog55

We usually only run 3 heads and we also have another condenser running a head in the lounge room

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## Brian7886

so is the problem you are cold in the lounge room? or every room?  
get the no more gaps, under floor insulation etc going.  
basic sizing up to about 16-17 sq m you would get away with a 2.5kw
                                   22-24sq m 3.5kw
                                   32-34sq m 5kw
                                   39-40sq m 6kw
                                   45-47sq m 7kw
                                   53-54sq m 8kw
                                   60-62sq m 9.2kw 
obviously thats rough, consideration to insulation, windows/doors/floor materials/roof type etc etc all need to be taken.

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## phild01

> so is the problem you are cold in the lounge room? or every room?  
> get the no more gaps, under floor insulation etc going.  
> basic sizing up to about 16-17 sq m you would get away with a 2.5kw
>                                    22-24sq m 3.5kw
>                                    32-34sq m 5kw
>                                    39-40sq m 6kw
>                                    45-47sq m 7kw
>                                    53-54sq m 8kw
>                                    60-62sq m 9.2kw 
> obviously thats rough, consideration to insulation, windows/doors/floor materials/roof type etc etc all need to be taken.

  Is there any significant running cost difference by oversizing the unit?

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## Brian7886

> Is there any significant running cost difference by oversizing the unit?

  depends mate. With inverters not so much. As it will just reach its ramp down points faster and idle. That however can feel uncomfortable as well.  
But its better to oversize than under. Undersize its got no chance. Ive got an 8kw in my living area which isnt really too big, but as my living room windows all face directly west, they get a harsh sun in summer, and now its got a massive driveway infront of them, i get that added reflection and radiant heat as well. So the 8kw does the job perfectly. Through summer we could leave the air con on for weeks. THe house remains cool all day and idles, as it never gets hot inside. regular summer power bill might be 700. this is a 4 person household, with 2 large fridges as well.

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## phild01

Mine is an 8kW Inverter Fujitsu for an upstairs area of 30m2 with a big glass area facing west.  Took some protective trees down so will see this summer.  Still to finish closing up the area but it has no trouble dealing with the cold or heat.

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## Brian7886

Id be thinking youll be fine.

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## shauck

> You would get close to about 150-160hrs usage to $100. Which is close to 2 hrs a day every day of winter. (not calculating in the wind down times unit where it could be running at about 200w), $200 of electricity would get you up to 4 hrs of usage a day. How far would gas go if you burnt your gas heater 4 hours every single day of winter? Im not being a smart ass, cos i dont know that answer). Everything has its pro's and cons.

  Can't answer exactly coz gas hot water and stove are part of our bill but as I said earlier, we leave the heater on from about 4.30am till at least 9pm or a bit later. That's the smallest Rinnai model. It's not brand new either. Average temp on heater set to about 24 degrees. Down to 20-21 when not home so it may go off at times when days get warmer or flat out all day mid winter. Up to 26 on coldest nights (that's the top temp) 
So, that's 16.5 hours a day.  
Haven't got this winter bill yet (it's due in a few days) so used last Sept as mentioned above which was $218. Just looked at this years bill for 20 May-17 July, which is also relevant as it gets cold here sooner and lasts longer than Melbourne. It's $270. 
So factor into that bill gas hot water and cooking, hot water being the bigger of the two of course. As to percentage, I couldn't really say except the bill tends to roughly halve in the summer. 
If half that bill was for heating, $135, to heat for 16.5 hours a day for 2 months.......not bad. 
Just paid elec bill. It was $175 for 3 months. 
Really need to emphasise, it's much cooler here than Melbourne and for a lot longer. Eg, last week dropped back to around 12-13 degrees after one slightly warm week of around 15-17 degrees. We are always about 3-4 degrees cooler than Melbourne.

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## shauck

Just got gas bill. $266.90 (2 months)

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## Moondog55

I suppose your firewood was free? 
We are hoping that next year the power bills will be a lot lower, after insulating the rear 1/4 over the kitchen and sealing all the gaps

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## shauck

Yep, free firewood. Have cut a few trees down and mostly just burn them but kept a bit of wood. We don't use the fireplace much so don't need much wood. I lit the inside fire twice this winter and an outside bbq twice. About to cut down about 26 trees for the new subdivision. Giving it all to the guy who cuts it down as a deal. Not even sure if the new house will have a wood fire of any sort. Maybe a Coonara wood heater. To buy a meter of quality firewood here is about 80-90 bucks

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## Moondog55

Just a follow up
Middle of summer almost and; if anything; the air in the house is too cool, everything; including the Alice Springs shade sails over the roof; is working together to keep the house from heating up too much so I suspect we'll be warm enough this coming winter

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## woodbe

You're lucky! Summer over here in Adelaide runs from December 1 until end of February. We still have nearly 4 weeks until mid summer on January 15.

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## Uncle Bob

Just a side note that summer solstice was yesterday.

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## r3nov8or

Hey Moondog, gotta wait for the week of 40+ for our real test  :Smilie:

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## woodbe

> Just a side note that summer solstice was yesterday.

  True, but the hottest part of the year comes after the solstice, not at the solstice. Jan, Feb and March are all historically on average hotter than December:   
From: Geelong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Smurf

Most places, hottest month is Feb or at least January and that's when the major heatwaves tend to occur. Likewise the coldest month, in most places, is July. 
It's due to the lag effect of the sun heating the ground etc and transferring that to air temperatures. Actual temperature peaks after the peak in solar radiation due to this and vice versa during Winter.

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## Moondog55

I'll post the follow-up as soon as we've had those 3 in a row +40C days
The sails place a lot of strain on the rafters so I may need to get the Barrup trusses back from the Duffman , return his $40- and reinforce the main hip rafter

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## Marc

Mm ... gone from heating to cooling, interesting. What happened to the OP that couldn't heat with the split aircon? I thought it was odd. All you do is crank the temperature up all the way. Our 2.5 hp split does a great job in winter particularly in the morning when I am too lazy to light the fire. 
As far a fans. I have 3 ceiling fan in another house with a 11' ceiling and find the clockwise or anticlockwise a total bull. Either way all it does is to mix the top layer with the lower. If it is summer you blow hot air into the lower cool air, that is bad idea. In winter you mix hot air with colder down below. Good idea. The way you rotate the blades means nothing at all.

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## woodbe

> The way you rotate the blades means nothing at all.

  Depends if you are underneath the fan or not. Fans cool by running air over your skin, that's fine in summer, but in winter not so much.

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## r3nov8or

Yeah, I find ceiling fans far more effective for cooling (a sweaty body) in Summer than for warming in Winter. In short, I agree with woodbe here.

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## woodbe

Yep.  :Smilie:  
They do work in winter to mix the air in a stratified heated room though. That mostly occurs with a high ceiling and a split high on the wall. If you stand on a ladder, it can be stifling up there while at floor level it is cool. Running the fan in reverse and at a very low speed (most are too fast) mixes the air and makes the room more pleasantly warm without creating cooling airspeed over your skin.

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## Moondog55

Hi Marc. it was more a comment on how sealing,  insulating and double glazing effects how efficient heating and cooling are in the holistic view. 
Not much point in having a good heating system if all the warm air escapes though holes and cracks, it is why we'll be keeping the small air transfer system as it also works to the same effect as a ceiling fan; breaking up the stratified hot air that sits at ceiling height.

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## r3nov8or

Yeah, can see the logic, and a reversed fan sends the air down the walls rather than straight down, but the slight breeze is easily felt when sitting, especially if you place your furniture on the wall.

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## woodbe

If you feel a slight breeze, the fan is spinning too fast. It has to be just enough to get the air mixing. Most fans on low are too fast to do it properly, and yes, you will then feel a breeze.

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## Moondog55

> Hey Moondog, gotta wait for the week of 40+ for our real test

  Well day one at 42C went well, house hardly warmed up at all and the aircon was only on in the main rooms ; ie: the lounge dining and bedroom, set at 24C and just ticked over all day, never worked hard at all

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## Brian7886

Good stuff mate. Ive been enjoying a 12 day christmas break away from air conditioning break downs and installs and have hardly used mine. I live on the coast and have spent most days either by the pool or up the beach in the 4x4 enjoying the ocean. Monday is back to the hell that is a fridgeys summer

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## Moondog55

No 40C days in a row yet, but while the Boss may have felt a little cool during the last winter the cooling function has been superb so far this summer, next winter will be the real test, let's wait and see. I still miss the wood fire tho

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## Moondog55

Something I forgot to post
We had a problem with the system and it stopped working
Checked the manual; nothing to explain the flashing light, called the seller/dealer ; no idea, arranged a service call
Service man arrives and I explain the problem, serviceman shakes his head and says " New one on me; I'll check the manual" Nothing in his manual, he gores on line and finds no information in the factory library, calls the technical manager of Fujitsu Australia, describes the problem and gets an immediate answer.
Inadvertently one of the heads had been set to heat and the other to cool, system shut down and a single rapid flashing LED 
So why wasn't this in the * Expletive* manual??? FFS 
Feedback to the manufacturer and printer of manuals followed promptly

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## Brian7886

If youd explained that to me straight up id have answered you mate. As far as im aware its in the manual. Aswell as the fujitsu tech app

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## Cecile

> If youd explained that to me straight up id have answered you mate. As far as im aware its in the manual. Aswell as the fujitsu tech app

  Thanks Brian.  We never thought to bring the question here!  Ted was a little surprised that the technician didn't know the answer.  Our owner's operational manual doesn't mention this anywhere.  I'm not sure why the "mode" of a head that's switched off would make a difference to the operation of the whole system; to me off means off.

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## Moondog55

Not in the manuals that were left here with us; but no matter all good now

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## Brian7886

> Thanks Brian.  We never thought to bring the question here!  Ted was a little surprised that the technician didn't know the answer.  Our owner's operational manual doesn't mention this anywhere.  I'm not sure why the "mode" of a head that's switched off would make a difference to the operation of the whole system; to me off means off.

  Even though they are off there is still communication between the heads and the outdoor. Basically so when you tell it to turn on, its ready to go. Heating tells the reversing valve to energise and brings in various sensors which may not be used during cooling (defrost sensr on the outdoor coil for example). Basically having both settings on confuses it

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## Moondog55

It makes perfect sense that all the heads need to be set to the same function and we do as a matter of course
I think a 2YO had been playing with the remote and we never noticed, but we were really confused at the time

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## Brian7886

One for the memory bank mate. Hope he didnt charge ya

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## Moondog55

No;  he didn't even accept a fresh cup of coffee

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## Moondog55

Time for a completely irrelevant type of post
Having done all this work to be able to cope with a run of 40+ days I am feeling more than a little cheated that so far this summer we seem to be using the air conditioning only about a third of the time and then mainly as a dehumidifier; that is set to to a degree below outside air temperature
Huge bonus tho where running cost is concerned I guess

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## johnc

Better send a letter to God's complaint department and see if the stokers in hells basement can send a few hot days your way.

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## Moondog55

> Better send a letter to God's complaint department and see if the stokers in hells basement can send a few hot days your way.

  Already did, it got sent back labelled insufficient postage

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## johnc

There's your problem, the postal cold shoulder, so you are the one responsible for the lack of really hot back to school weather.

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## Moondog55

OK So summer is over and I've just gone around the house and turned all the heads to "HEAT' just in case we need to turn one on
Cecile will post the heating updates it it doesn't work as expected

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## JB1

Do you mean just hit the heat button on the remote control? 
Or is it more involved? 
Certainly been a cool summer in Vic, but we used it a dozen time to reduce the humidity while sleeping.

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## Moondog55

> Do you mean just hit the heat button on the remote control? 
> Or is it more involved? 
> Certainly been a cool summer in Vic, but we used it a dozen time to reduce the humidity while sleeping.

  See post #69 and the follow-ups

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## JB1

I see, with the multi head splits, can you set different temps? 
Of course all heating (or all cooling)

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## Moondog55

On each head yes as the sensors are in the head
Got then set on 24 Heating at the moment as the GDs got cold and wet digging in the worms farm and they need to keep warm now
Crazy Melbourne weather, Ahhhh Autumn Crisp nights and warm days when it's not cold and windy

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## Moondog55

Bringing this old thread back to the top because Summer is almost here and once more the importance of shading comes to the fore
Due to the young blokes stuff-up on the carport the sun was coming right into the dining room through that nice big window we put in and it became very warm, very quickly while the new kitchen with the shaded window didn't heat up much at all
I spent part of today putting the *"Temporary"* shade sails back on the Eastern exposure and the old roller shade over the dining room window

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## Brian7886

> Bringing this old thread back to the top because Summer is almost here and once more the importance of shading comes to the fore
> Due to the young blokes stuff-up on the carport the sun was coming right into the dining room through that nice big window we put in and it became very warm, very quickly while the new kitchen with the shaded window didn't heat up much at all
> I spent part of today putting the *"Temporary"* shade sails back on the Eastern exposure and the old roller shade over the dining room window

  spot on mate. I have a fully shaded, all year round position for my 2 air con out door units. In summer, that part of the house gets a nice breeze regardless of the heat. Outdoor unit ambient air wouldnt get over 30 degrees even on the hottest day, so the units never struggle.  
The inside of the house is a different story. the 3m wide living room window, 2.4m wide master bedroom window and a 1.8m spare bedroom window all face directly south-west. They get belted by the sun all afternoon. My issue is, they are on the front of the home facing the road.  
I have fullblock out blinds, with full block out curtains behind. This completely stops the heat radiating into the room. but still the house naturally warms up anyway because of that sun. I have considered tinting the windows, so i can do away with the roller blinds. Meaning i can open the curtains for privacy and shut them for sun block out. Or roller shutters, which is going to be expensive on such large windows, and they look shocking

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## r3nov8or

Hi Brian. Have a look at this stuff. Can be put up in summer and taken down for cooler months, or put on rollers.   Renshade - Perforated aluminium window foil

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## Moondog55

Interesting product r3nov8or
We still haven't shaded the A/C unit on the roof but that gets done as soon as the carport is finished
It was shaded but then we demolished the chimney, a small shade sail will fix that problem

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## woodbe

Probably better than your average blinds, but the best solution is to shade from the outside to stop the heat entering the building. Once it's inside the glass, it will heat the air between the window and the blind, that heated air will create a convection chimney to heat the room.

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## Moondog55

Reading the data sheets it seems it can also be used as exterior shading with the obvious associated fragility

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## Brian7886

after i did my new double driveway to the garage and the footpath to the front steps i wished it allowed a space under the window for a garden, rather than concreteing to the house. Now i have no way of shading the window with foliage.  
My bedroom window gets enough shade these days as it has bird of paradise plant infront of it (the large one) so i just let it go a bit wild and it completely shades the window.

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