# Forum Home Renovation Sub Flooring  noise between adjacent properties

## jules21

i live in a terrace house which is connected to my neighbours by party (double brick) walls on either side. 
one side is great, but the other is giving us hell with loud footsteps down the wooden floorboard hallway adjacent to the party wall, well into the night. 
i know the solution is supposed to be to go and talk to them, but to cut a long story short, it isn't necessarily the most practical option at the moment. 
can sound practically be reduced by spending money on insulation - underfloor and/or wall mounted? i know there are products in existence but does anyone have experience to know whether they are effective, which ones, costs, or any other advice? 
i'm reaching the point of seriously entertaining selling up as i can't spend the rest of my life at 2.30am listening to feet pounding down the hallway. of course the poor sucker who buys it will inherit the problem.

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## Larry McCully

Hi Jules, the most common reason for sound penertrating through to adjusant propertys is through the framing members. I would say that both of the units are made from the one framing system and not two seperate sysyems as they are present day construction. Ther is a code now days call the MRTFC. That stands for Multi Residentual timber frame construction. it is based on all floor framing has to be seperate from wall framing in all of the units. You see, sound will travel along metel and timber components and under the right conditions can even be amplified. You will find that in your home, they have built a big floor and have put walls on it to seperate the units. As your next door neighbour walks on the floor or even other sound waves generated by radios, tv and other devices are captured by the wall and floor framing and passes along the timber path.  If you are hearing him, he also can hear you.To succesfully isolate the sound from penertrating into your unit yo need to isolate all contact with the adjusent unit.  you can get a better idea from the link i have included. If you google mrtfc you will find it . Follow the design manual link. But for you to have success , you may need major surgury. That may include a seperating stud wall . and cutting through bearers . All of this is designed to stop the sound travel. This can be done but needs a qualified chippie.

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## kombiman

Been there suffered that bought a house  :2thumbsup:  
sorry, no easy fix except buy them a hall carpet and slippers

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## pharmaboy2

> Been there suffered that bought a house  
> sorry, no easy fix except buy them a hall carpet and slippers

  I reckon I'd be tempted to start putting shoes on in the morning and walking around your house  for  a few weeks (before 6.30am, and preferably on sundays - this assumes you have floorboards), THEN approach them about the noise, and how you can hear them, and can they hear you? etc etc, and how about we buy you a hall rug etc etc 
The alternative is weeks possibly months of tradies arriving at 6.45 with circular saws ect. 
always be nice to neighbours, you never know when you are going to need them.   :Wink:

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## Larry McCully

Check this out  www.alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq10b.html

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## jules21

> I would say that both of the units are made from the one framing system and not two seperate sysyems as they are present day construction. Ther is a code now days call the MRTFC. That stands for Multi Residentual timber frame construction. it is based on all floor framing has to be seperate from wall framing in all of the units.

  just to be clear, these houses were built in 1908.  
there is a double brick party wall, which i assume continues to ground level and the floors are mated against it (on a ledge?) i've never seen below the floorboards so i'm just guessing. 
you are quite correct that the sound insulation qualities are appalling. i think sometimes sounds are amplified.   

> Been there suffered that bought a house  
> sorry, no easy fix except buy them a hall carpet and slippers

  it's a long story. previous occupiers (owners) were noisy but they've just moved tenants in who are unbelievable. up all hours making a racket. 
i'm seriously considering buying a new house (this is a house, it's not a unit - it's a single fronted, connected terrace house). given the expenditure involved in that, i will consider spending up on effective noise insulation work.

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## wizard

Hi jules21, you have my sympathy, but sympathy is not going to solve your problem. What sounds do you hear? Is it voices or footsteps? low frequencies or high? Does your roof space connect? Is your ceiling well insulated? You can try a few things before spending too much. 
Use rugs or carpet runners down your hall, full width to see if it is coming up through the floor.
Use thick material (more rugs) as wall hangings that go down to the floor. Is it the walls?
If you are loosing sleep which is not a good thing then consider closing your bedroom door and make sure it seals well. (not if you need to listen for the kids) 
If the noise from nextdoor is localised, consider changing the way you use your rooms, 
Play music of your choice throughout the night to mask the noise from nextdoor. 
As others have said it is not an easy fix. I hope these ideas give you food for thought.
Cheers
Wizard

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## Larry McCully

Ok i would say that all of the floor framing members are fixed against the brick wall. The wall is most likly turning into a huge speaker cone as the sound from the stepping is transmitted into the wall via the framing members. Youcould try errecting a seperating wall about 50mm away from the existing wall, install sound batts (rock wool). you need to create a air gap between the new wall and the existing wall. The trick is that you also can not have any steel fixing through the studs and into the beick wall as the sound will travel through the steel fixing, The use of nylon sleeve anchors is used. EXAMPLE>>>> When we build a floor in a townhouse that must comply with a acoustic rating, we fix down floor framing members with nylon anchors. This restricts any sound travel. We do not allow any timber framming to com in contact with walls or any othyer surface. A nylon anchor has a steel pin with a nylon sleeve around it. This work is cost effective, as it is only a simple wall construction.

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## wizard

Hi jules21, Just more questions! as I reread you post I was not clear on the configuration of the two neighbours and I assumed that your hall was on the other side of the wall from your noisy neighbours hall. If this is not the case, and you have your bedroom wall aginst the ajoining wall of the noisy neighbours hall then a lot of my Ideas woukld not make sense or work. As Larry McCully has said it is possible to build a new wall well insulated in your room to cut down the transmitted noise. If you have polished floorboards consider carpet as well. Try to identify if it comes through the floor, wall or ceiling or all of the above. 
Cheers
Wizard

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## jules21

> Hi jules21, Just more questions! as I reread you post I was not clear on the configuration of the two neighbours

  there is a party wall separating both houses, and our hallways are immediately adjacent to the party wall. 
so i can reduce the noise by closing my bedroom door, which helps isolate some of the noise in my hallway, but it doesn't help much.   

> If you have polished floorboards consider carpet as well. Try to identify if it comes through the floor, wall or ceiling or all of the above.

  carpet will surely reduce the noise of my footsteps in my hallway, but would it do much to reduce noise transmission from my neighbour? it's the latter which is the real problem. 
i can't be sure whether the majority of noise comes through the floor or wall. it's hard to tell.

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## jules21

> Ok i would say that all of the floor framing members are fixed against the brick wall. The wall is most likely turning into a huge speaker cone as the sound from the stepping is transmitted into the wall via the framing members.

  that sounds ominously like what is occurring..  :Doh:    

> You could try errecting a seperating wall about 50mm away from the existing wall, install sound batts (rock wool).

  thanks for the info. you know what.. i think this may be my next project. 
i had a look at the hallway this evening, and although i am hesitant to sacrifice hall (and front door) width, it is probably worthwhile.  
essentially you are suggesting that the separating wall and timber floor are separately mounted from each other and the brick party wall, through the use of nylon anchors (for the wall studs) and presumably, by fabricating an alternative means of supporting the timber floor, than the current method of what i understand to be its resting on the bluestone party wall footings ledge.

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## jules21

> Check this out www.alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq10b.html

  thanks. the one on their next page (system #2) sounds good!

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## wizard

Hi jules21, 
If your floorboards are bare then it is possible that the sound transmits through the wall and into your floor as well as the wall. As Larry McCully has said consider the wall and possibly the floor as a speaker cone. You wont be able to stop it vibrating, but you should be able to reduce the amout transmitted into the house. If it was a speaker you would jam it with a pillow to muffle the sound. 
I had to soundproof engine rooms in luxury yachts and I used a combination of specialized carpet, cork and a foam sheet that had a lead layer midway through. All these things were expensive and had to be fireproof. 
So I would say there is a product out there that you should be able to put on the wall and it will help. Try http://www.ultrafonic.com.au/index.html and other like it similar to the one that Larry McCully recommended
Cheers
Wizard

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## wizard

Quote 
Originally Posted by *Larry McCully*   _Check this out www.alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/faq10b.html_  _I should have read the excellent information that Larry has found before I added my 2 cents worth!_  _cheers_ _Wizard_

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