# Forum Home Renovation Doors, Windows, Architraves & Skirts  Alternatives to Double Glazing?

## dastrix

Had Magentite over to quote up 3 windows, which came in at a STUPIDLY priced figure in the thousands. No idea how they can charge that for some frames and perspex but anyway! 
Are there any other solutions , mainly to cut down cold/hot heat transfer but specifically noise? Road noise is quite bad and we want to minimise this in our bedroom 
Any suggestions guys/girls? The windows are sash windows. 
Thanks
Kris

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## woodbe

Sash windows. Ouch. 
To reduce noise, you need to first eliminate all air gaps. If the windows are old, there might be some of these, and they might not be that easy to eliminate. 
Then, you could replace the glass with thicker, laminated glass. That would help a bit. 
Replacing the whole window with a good double glazed system (again, with great and designed-in weather seals) would do a good job. It could be improved by specifying different thicknesses of glass on each side of the glazing. Expensive. 
If you have room, and the existing windows are in good condition, you could install a second window behind it, single or double glazed. Needs to have great weather sealing, even though it won't ever see the rain etc. This is popular in the UK around airports from what I have seen, but in older buildings with thick walls. Sounds like this mightn't be a lot dearer than magnetite.  
woodbe.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Had Magentite over to quote up 3 windows, which came in at a STUPIDLY priced figure in the thousands. No idea how they can charge that for some frames and perspex but anyway!

  Then I'd be going to school on their idea (because it isn't a bad one)....it is simply strips of self adhesive magnetic tape stuck to a sheet of acrylic and the window frame....then bought together. 
There used to be a really good acrylic supplier at Rydalmere who'd cut the sheet to size and they weren't that expensive.  There's plenty of others in Sydney that'll do the same thing... 
The little PVC frame is simply there to hide the cut mark...there's nothing to stop you putting your own touch on it instead.....like timber strips.....

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## Dave_KB

What thickness acrylic do Magentite use?

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## sundancewfs

I recently put a new 1.8x1.8m Weathershield Visions3000 double hung UPVC window in my daughter's room and was suprised at how little sound it stopped! I fact I was extremely disappointed! Funny thing was we were re-painting and trimming her room and when I pulled the skirting board off I found out why. The previous owners had swapped out the original ~65mm bullnose skirt for 90~mm colonial skirt...... but when they took the old one off, with an unsupported claw hammer....well you get the picture.... large round holes punched through the wall all along the bottom. along the wall under the window they had effectively ruined the entire lower 3" of plasterboard. I had to cut it out and replace it. Also The floorboards under the window didn't go all the way to the bottom plate. (running paralell) they finished right under the outer edge of the bottom of the skirt. To make things even worse.... there was a 300mm x 300mm section of wall in the lower corner of the room where the rats had chewed through the wall.... It had been taped over then given a skim coat to hide it. (more repairs to the plasterboard) What started out as "a quick coat of paint before Nanna comes" turned out to be an almost full rebuild! Oh and the reason for removing the skirt... The mitres were soooo bad, I couldn't leave them like they were, then I couldn't match the profile, so we decided to rip them all off and replace them with the bullnose style again. That's when you start to see what's really causing problems! After all the above fixes. The window is performing beautifully! (well it was all along...) and so are the walls. :Smilie:

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## Bloss

What woodbe says is the go, but depends what you are after. Double glazing is very effective (reduction of 40dB or more), but costly, and like all windows constructed to attenuate sound have to be closed to work - seems self-evident, but in our climate that's a hard thing to put up with. Have a look here for thermal management http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs47.html and here for acoustic treatment technical matters http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ie/acoustics/index_e.html and http://www.mjm.qc.ca/en/recherche_pub/fenetres.html. 
You might find that you can achieve what you want without touching the windows themselves. Noise is a harder thing to deal with than thermal efficiency. Sound attenuation is basically about density and mass of materials (except evacuated glazing used in specialised acoustic environments like studios). So in your case look at   things closer to the street that would absorb or deflect the road noise - shrubs, trees, or physical structures like block walls or even lattice work can help.  
Shutters on the outside of windows can effective (wood work best, but need maintenance) and can be opened and close at will (from the inside if designed well). Slatted ones work well and adjustable louvres give more flexibility for light and sound.

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## Compleat Amateu

Love the story sundancewfs, just see the weekend disintegrating in front of you!  And what a great lesson about looking at the whole problem. 
Endorse what was said about Magnetite, I got a quote on some windows from them and the price for 1500 x 1000 domestic windows ran about at about a grand each .... not bad if you get punters to sign up.  Which I didn't.

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## woodbe

Eek! That's a lot. I've just ordered 7 panes of fixed glass to be replaced with fixed double glazing including low-e on one face. Cost is a bit more than 2 of your magnetites... 
woodbe.

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## sports fan

a much cheaper alternative would be to use glass blocks.. you lay them in a aluminium frame and they achieve a 60/60/60 fire rating, the sound insulation would also be pretty good. You can get the glass obscured so people cant see into your bedroom but will still let plenty of natural in you would not need curtains. the drawback is that you dont get airflow but if your bedrooms facing a main road you would have a window open much anyway 
check out http://www.glassbrickcompany.com.au/

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## Ausyuppy

I found this bit of info on the G James website in regards to sound reduction with double glazing.  *Q. Are 'double glazed' windows the best way of controlling unwanted noise ?*   *A.* This is a common misconception. A more practical and economical alternative is ensure the windows are fitted with acoustic seals and glazed with a laminated glass (which is constructed with a sound dampening PVB interlayer). For 'double glazing' to be an effective sound control measure a large air gap of around 100mm between the glass is necessary. G.James has conducted extensive acoustic testing on many of our standard products and can access this data to assist with your situation.  http://www.gjames.com.au/product/wn/faq.html#q6 
I would tend to believe this statement, as I find it surprising that a window company wouldnt be trying to up sell customers to this product.  
However I have seen the double glazed windows with the venetian blinds internally. I believe they are quite effective. 
Cheers
Steve

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## woodbe

> A more practical and economical alternative is ensure the windows are fitted with acoustic seals and glazed with a laminated glass

  This is a given, regardless of glazing type selected. The acoustic seal is not easy to achieve reliably in an existing window. If you've ever been to europe and seen how windows are constructed there, you would appreciate the design and engineering differences involved. Often, the seal is achieved in this type of window using two continuous designed-in rubber strips that are compressed when the window shuts.   
In my experience, for retrofit, the glass is the easy bit. Getting frames to seal and removing airgaps left during construction can be a real challenge, and the materials commonly used (stick-on foam and rubber products) will fail in a relatively short period even if they can be fitted adequately which is no mean feat in many windows.  
Thankfully, we are slowly waking up to these facts, and better quality window systems are becoming available locally, and there are companies also selling made to order euro systems both locally made and imported. 
woodbe.

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## pharmaboy2

fair bit of good advice here, if you want to go with magnetite DIY, read up here http://supersoundproofing.com/forum/index.php 
in 2 hrs you will know all there is to know about soundproofing - but gj james is pretty on the money - a good size gap or laminated makes the big difference.  FWIW, i would also remove the archtraves and caulk heavily with fullers firesound caulking . 
By all accounts homemade acrylic sheet on the outside of the frame do a really good job of killing noise.

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## Bloss

> a much cheaper alternative would be to use glass blocks.. you lay them in a aluminium frame and they achieve a 60/60/60 fire rating, the sound insulation would also be pretty good. You can get the glass obscured so people cant see into your bedroom but will still let plenty of natural in you would not need curtains. the drawback is that you dont get airflow but if your bedrooms facing a main road you would have a window open much anyway 
> check out http://www.glassbrickcompany.com.au/

  By golly they are hard to open and close for fresh air though as you say . . .  :Biggrin:  
BTW Ausyuppy - the question is afalse one Q. Are 'double glazed' windows the _best_ way of controlling unwanted noise ? Few people claim they are 'the best way' - just that they have an effect - and as much as anything due to added density of two glass layers (and about 40dB is what can be expected - that is not trivial in a residential are and enough to muffle road noise etc - mostly). Woodbe is right too - sound travels well through air so any gaps and all the money in the world on glass etc is waste of time. But we mostly are not after sound studios - just 'normal' so the options discussed here will all give some relief to dastrix's bedroom road noise problem.

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## Ausyuppy

Oldbloss,
I agree that double glazing does have its benefits reducing noise. 
I was just pointing out that it mustnt be well proven if a large glass company isnt trying to push their product (which would be more expensive) saving that it will reduce noise. 
In regards to some of the European designed windows, they are awesome. When I was in Canada our friends had some imported. The double glazed ones that you can open or tilt them open at the top. I recently saw a triple glazed design on Grand Designs. 
If I was to build another house, I definately would look into double glazing as well as decent insulation in both the walls and ceiling. Not only reduce heating / cooling costs, but also eliminate unwanted noises. 
Cheers
Steve

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## Bloss

> If I was to build another house, I definately would look into double glazing as well as decent insulation in both the walls and ceiling. Not only reduce heating / cooling costs, but also eliminate unwanted noises.

  My house has all that and it is warm and quiet and cool when it needs to be - I've changed all the windows & doors to double glazed with one side e-glass during progressive renovations. My Dad built his first solar passive house in 1956 in country NSW - had to fight the local council and building inspector at the time every inch of the way as nearly everything he did was new to them.  :2thumbsup:

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## snowyskiesau

As part of an RTA (Roads and Traffic Authority in NSW) initiative, I've just had my house measured up for no*i*se reduction treatment.
From what the consultant said, main feature is that all glass is replaced with 6mm laminated glass, for sash and casement windows. Rubber seals are added to make the frames as air tight as possible.
A couple of the windows are hopper types and the answer sounded a lot like the Magnatite described but I'm sure they said glass rather than acrylic. 
At the front of the house are some leadlights and again these are to be treated with what sounds like Magnatite - the consultant didn't use that name.
A ventilation system will also be installed.

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## burraboy

> Had Magentite over to quote up 3 windows, which came in at a STUPIDLY priced figure in the thousands. No idea how they can charge that for some frames and perspex but anyway! 
> Are there any other solutions , mainly to cut down cold/hot heat transfer but specifically noise? Road noise is quite bad and we want to minimise this in our bedroom 
> Any suggestions guys/girls? The windows are sash windows. 
> Thanks
> Kris

    I did a renovation some years ago and went for double glazed awning (rather than sash) windows for their thermal properties.  I was amazed at the differences in quoted prices for treated plantation timber and western red cedar frames.  The tpt quotes were less than half the wrc quotes so we went with the tpt with no problems since.  You might be able to reduce the price that way, From memory, we used Canterbury winows in Melbourne.  
  I also noticed a great deal of misleading BS from glass suppliers about types of glass to use in various situations, read their brochures with a great deal of care!

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## sundancewfs

I'm with oldbloss on this one....
Having lived in Chicago for 4 1/2 years you get very used to the benefits of double glazing sound and warm/cool. I am amused when I hear Australian companies advertising that their products are built for the "harsh Australian climate" I think the climate here is soft and cushy! ( I have also lived and worked in outback western Australia) Chicago winters get down to -25c in winter and in summer up to 40c and super humid. When we first got back here and bought a house, the first thing I did was order double-glazed windows for the entire house. low e glass on all, triple low e on the western windows. I think there is debate about the benefits of double glazing in Australia because for the most part, people haven't lived with it. Does it work for reducing heat tranfer?... yes. Does it work for reducing noise levels?.... yes (we are 1 1/2 blocks from the railway and it has reduced train noise significantly) Are there other factors that affect sound and heat transfer? ... yes. Australian 1960's brick-veneer construction is woefully inadequate if you want to control the internal enviroment. As with anything, you need to look at the whole system. (just putting wide tyres on your car doesn't make it a race-car.) Is it worth the money installing, well constructed thermally broken double-glazed windows?.... In my opinion, if installed correctly, yes without a doubt.

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## woodbe

> I've just had my house measured up for *nose reduction treatment*.

  haha. Couldn't resist. Is that a typo, or is there some freud happening here?  :Biggrin:  
sundancewfs: Absolutely. The problem we have in Aussieland is that any sort of window isn't considered cheap, really good windows are really really expensive, and specifiers/architects are not in the habit of even mentioning them. Like others have said, escalating energy costs will probably fix that in the longer term. 
woodbe.

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## dastrix

Wow! Thanks everyone. Well double glazing isnt available to us because we dont have the 100mm space required 
Given the putty is dead/dying and the glass is rattling in the windows, perhaps its best we reglaze with the laminated glass 
Anyone know any good suppliers that can reglaze our windows? Do they require removal?

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## tidemaster

I have 4 sash style windows facing a busy street, stegbar said they were the best type of window for noise reduction beside double glazed ones. I then had cedar plantation shutters installed and these give about a 100 mm gap between window. When louvres are closed it stops a remarkable amount of noise.

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## Gravy258

hiya all, I've mentioned this before, I'm installing double glazing to my 1955 brick veneer, with steel framed windows. I've used flyscreen strips with clear UPVC as the glazing (available from Bunnings at $13 per metre,133cm wide, called table cloth cover?, the same stuff tent/gazebo makers use for there windows). 
-We don't ever open the windows anyway, they open out, so I repainted and sealed them shut.
-I then made up frames that sit inside the window from white alloy fly screen, sealed to the painted wood with silicon. Some large windows needed three sections made as i'm yet to find UPVC plastic wide enough, these followed the window frame lines anyway.
-On a hot day installed the clear plastic window , pulling it taught, the rolling it in with 5mm rubber, finally using a heat gun to get all the creases out. 
-from outside the house you can't even see they are there
- I did the first one last summer in the master bedroom, noticable reduction in noise and heat ingress, in winter less dampness(the room faces south) as the metal frames have shocking condensation. No condensation at all on the steel windows. Some on the plastic, due to the missus drying clothes indoors.
-Cost per window, about four hours of your labour, and $100 in materials for a large window 3metres x 2metres.
-That is 2metre alloy strips at $11 each, plastic as before, corners $4 for 4, rubber .60c metre. Sealant $6 tube.
- I then re fit the net curtains directly infront of the framing, can't see much then, just a few neat black lines of rubber.   
There is a product called winter windows, like glad wrap that you stick over the frames to make the gap, in my case these would of fallen off with condensation, mine are sturdy, the plastic is replaceable, I can rip out the whole lot without any structural damage if needs be. 
cheers
Gravy

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