# Forum Home Renovation Stairs, Steps and Ramps  External Staircase build

## Marc

Hi there.
My next project is replacing an external stair. 16 steps, straight not under cover. Previous one was treated pine, rickety and pathetic. 
Now the reason for my post is to have hopefully some suggestions as to what materials to use. 
Before I start with the stairs I have to fix the landing. Basically, the veranda where the stairs will land was build askew for reasons unknown and I want to square it up. This is a job in itself since the roof over the veranda follows the same line, but that is not a very interesting subject. Just an ugly and difficult patch up.  
Now stairs ... once the landing is finished, the stairs come into play. The post and bearers are steel. Post are 100x100x5, bearers are universal beam 250 x 150. 
The stairs go from a wooden (what else) deck to another deck. 
The anchoring of the stringers will be steel plates welded or bolted to the landing subframe, and the bottom part, mounting plates protruding between the deck boards and bolted below the deck to bearers joists or both depending on position.
So far not much of a muchness, now the question. 
Should I make the stairs in steel or wood?
Initially I thought in doing all in steel, demountable so that I can carry it bit by bit to the trailer and to galvanising once finished and put it back together afterwards. 
Getting the steps made at a metal folding place with checkered plate is possible and easy, yet metal steps tend to get very hot in the sun. I suppose that if painted white, this may be a bit less of a problem? wooden steps get hot too. 
Stringers could be C section and the thread bracket just angle or flat bar welded or bolted to the stringer.  
Alternatives are a combination of metal stringer and hardwood steps, or all hardwood stringer and steps. 
I could make the stringers with no grooves to avoid rotting since it is in the open and bolt angle to bolt the steps to.  
What should I use?

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## Marc

Anybody home?

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## METRIX

Can you utilize pre made galvanized stringers, and put Hardwood treads on them ?

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## GDOG

When you say Hardwood do you mean tassie oak kdhw from your local home hardware.  :Shock:  Or a treated hardwood or maybe a really durable species such as iron bark ($$$) which is probably on a par with a solid gold staircase. 
What about cypress gold.  Pretty cheap nowadays and very durable.  I personally like the look of cypress.  Definitely attached (gal dipped) angle steel tread brackets rather than checkouts though,  Easier and lasts longer, maybe stainless fixings? 
I'll avoid steel where possible as I'm a wood man. (unless it's your field)   Any job I do with steelwork in it always is a pain connecting timber to it etc.  Give me timber anyday.  I do like the longevity of dipped gal though.  Could build 3 timber sets for the price of a complete gal dipped contraption I reckon.  
Did a job recently with a single stainless stringer,  250 x 100 or something up the centre, then had tread mounting brackets on risers that were welded to the top of the stringer. Second hand re-dressed hw 250x 50?? (forget what species but was the heaviest timber I've ever worked with)  treads then attached to them.  As you walked up the treads looked to be floating almost.  Thought the design might have been unstable but when all screwed off from underneath was remarkably solid.   I had no part in the steelwork or sourcing of the timber as the client organised it but I'd hate to see the finished cost.  
The stainless contractor was due back after me to do some handrail set up but no idea how as I never went back.

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## Marc

> Can you utilize pre made galvanized stringers, and put Hardwood treads on them ?

  Definitely a cheaper option but the one I have seen are a tad flimsy and I would have to modify them. It would be difficult to find one that fits without getting one or two uneven steps.  
What do you think of folding checkered plate as opposed to hardwood steps? 
Hardwood ... whatever I can find in the timber yard I suppose. Spotty, Merbau, Blackbutt, Nordwood, Abracadabra (I made up that one, so many different new names)

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## Marc

> When you say Hardwood do you mean tassie oak kdhw from your local home hardware.  Or a treated hardwood or maybe a really durable species such as iron bark ($$$) which is probably on a par with a solid gold staircase. 
> What about cypress gold.  Pretty cheap nowadays and very durable.  I personally like the look of cypress.  Definitely attached (gal dipped) angle steel tread brackets rather than checkouts though,  Easier and lasts longer, maybe stainless fixings? 
> I'll avoid steel where possible as I'm a wood man. (unless it's your field)   Any job I do with steelwork in it always is a pain connecting timber to it etc.  Give me timber anyday.  I do like the longevity of dipped gal though.  Could build 3 timber sets for the price of a complete gal dipped contraption I reckon.  
> Did a job recently with a single stainless stringer,  250 x 100 or something up the centre, then had tread mounting brackets on risers that were welded to the top of the stringer. Second hand re-dressed hw 250x 50?? (forget what species but was the heaviest timber I've ever worked with)  treads then attached to them.  As you walked up the treads looked to be floating almost.  Thought the design might have been unstable but when all screwed off from underneath was remarkably solid.   I had no part in the steelwork or sourcing of the timber as the client organised it but I'd hate to see the finished cost.  
> The stainless contractor was due back after me to do some handrail set up but no idea how as I never went back.

  Yes, there are some fancy set up possibilities. I thought of building a single string "floating" stair, but considering this is going from one deck that is 3m high to another that is 5.something high and is on the boundary of a hill, I need something a little more reassuring than that.
Having said that, if the tread and risers are relatively "full" and there is a decent rail on both sides ... mm ... feasible. Yet if I weld a contraption like that it will weigh in at 200 or so kilos and that means difficult to move around. Possible but uncomfortable. 
The simplest would be a couple of C channel duragal, angle brackets and hardwood or steel steps ... or all hardwood ... mm decisions decisions

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## Marc

Galvanized Steel Stair Stringers ALL Sizes Available Factory Direct Save $$$$$$ in QLD | eBay 
Of course I could get the stringers made by a mob like this. Not much fun in doing that, but way quicker and way cheaper too.

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## Marc

http://nepean.com/files/weldlok_stai...e_brochure.pdf 
What do you know, the mob that did some of my galvanising work also make stair stringers. Right here in Yagoona.
There prices are higher than the queensland mob but this use RHS in 5mm gage and way heavier than them.

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## Marc

October ... wow ... this took some time. 
The veranda is finally square, it was easier said then done. 
Needed new floor post, extending the steel bearers, extend the roof beams, add joists and rafters, resheet the roof, replace all the veranda post and rail, plaster the ceiling and now, it's the turn of the stairs.
After some calculations using the very useful stringer calculator from blocklayer.com, some head scratching, and assorted phonecalls, I came to the conclusion that making the stringers from scratch is a quest I will avoid. 
So I will buy the stringers ready made and adapt the supports to the job...
one problem though ... the stringers are made for 50 mm thick threads yet the timber you buy almost everywhere is 45 and the threads ready made are even 43mm 
No good, 175 - 50 = 125 ... 175 - 45 = 130 gap is too big ... bummer.  
Perhaps a demolition place can sell me some old 250x50 stuff I can use. 
This is a very stupid problem. 
Alternatively I will have to screw a strip of wood under the thread to reduce the gap... :Mad:

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## ringtail

250x50 is readily available up here in F17 appearance grade ironbark. Normally about $50 lm. I try and make my timber stairs 170 rise max to avoid the gap issue. Buggers me why all the steel stringers are made with a 175 mm rise. Nuts. Go 170 and the problem is solved. You can buy the tread plates loose too. Cut your RHS, make your landing to landing mounts, tack on the tread plates at whatever rise you want, check it, weld it out, dismantle and take to be dipped. Or get them custom made but they do charge like bastards for anything not 175 rise. Oh, the timber strip under the tread is really common. I rip some 42x18 kwila in half normally. If painted you don't even notice them and clear finished looks fine too.

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## Marc

How do you fix the thread to the bracket if you don't want a bolt through it?

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## ringtail

I never use bolts anymore. 40 mm batten screws with M10 gal washers. Work awesomely.

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## METRIX

> October ... wow ... this took some time. 
> The veranda is finally square, it was easier said then done. 
> Needed new floor post, extending the steel bearers, extend the roof beams, add joists and rafters, resheet the roof, replace all the veranda post and rail, plaster the ceiling and now, it's the turn of the stairs.
> After some calculations using the very useful stringer calculator from blocklayer.com, some head scratching, and assorted phonecalls, I came to the conclusion that making the stringers from scratch is a quest I will avoid. 
> So I will buy the stringers ready made and adapt the supports to the job...
> one problem though ... the stringers are made for 50 mm thick threads yet the timber you buy almost everywhere is 45 and the threads ready made are even 43mm 
> No good, 175 - 50 = 125 ... 175 - 45 = 130 gap is too big ... bummer.  
> Perhaps a demolition place can sell me some old 250x50 stuff I can use. 
> This is a very stupid problem. 
> Alternatively I will have to screw a strip of wood under the thread to reduce the gap...

  Marc any pictures ?, preferably ones that are not covered in green waterproofing, HA HA HA HA HA

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## Marc

This is not waterproofing just cold galvo, ha ha.
A few random photos os some of the process I had to go through. The extra post is to support a cantilever universal beam I extended. the second beam did not need extra support and extends only 350mm. I butt welded the beam extension and then added a 6 mm plate to both sides over the weld, welded the plate all around and also plug welded it. I can lift a track from the end of those beams.  
You can see some of the old veranda post in green and the new veranda post are white. I had to cut the veranda joist back 250mm because they cantilevered too far and sistered the joist that support the new post. Old 70ties house you patch up as best as you can.
Roof beam extended and new rafters installed, re sheated this section of the roof and put the ceiling back, old was asbestos.

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## Marc

The string below shows where the stairs will go. Been busy welding a couple of brackets to bolt the stringers to. Couldn't buy them that size, so made them. They are 400x100x180x6mm  / 5 12mm holes to go against the joist, have yet to make the contraption to bolt the other end of the stringers to, under the deck. 
Half way through the weld, I run out of welding wire so switched to a fluxed cored roll I bought years ago 'just in case'. Never used it before and worked surprisingly well.  Very hot and a bit dirty but good weld.  
The flooring on the veranda is partly treated pine and part particleboard with cement tiles over it (not waterproofed). Both will go and replaced with decking, probably spotty 130x25     
This cheap scaffolding proved very useful to do all that work looking up. My neck hurts just by looking at the pictures.       
I am tired now, I'll have a nap

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## Marc

> 250x50 is readily available up here in F17 appearance grade ironbark. Normally about $50 lm. I try and make my timber stairs 170 rise max to avoid the gap issue. Buggers me why all the steel stringers are made with a 175 mm rise. Nuts. Go 170 and the problem is solved. You can buy the tread plates loose too. Cut your RHS, make your landing to landing mounts, tack on the tread plates at whatever rise you want, check it, weld it out, dismantle and take to be dipped. Or get them custom made but they do charge like bastards for anything not 175 rise. Oh, the timber strip under the tread is really common. I rip some 42x18 kwila in half normally. If painted you don't even notice them and clear finished looks fine too.

  You are right, found a supplier of ironbark steps in deception bay for $25 a meter, bargain, worth paying $300 for delivery, will get them next week.?

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## ringtail

Do you mean Depression (Deception) Bay up here ? That's a very, very good price for 250x50 ironbark

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## huntercg

Hi Marc is that rough sawn? Theirs a local mill on the sunny coast that does 10x2 treads for $20/m and 12x2 stringers for $25/m. That's tallowwood, spotty or bloodwood.   
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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## Marc

> Do you mean Depression (Deception) Bay up here ? That's a very, very good price for 250x50 ironbark

   Yes I thought so, in Sydney if you can find it it's $100 a meter. 
Yes, rough sawn approx 52mm thick, Warren Treasure is his name, can't remember the name of the company ... something hardwood.

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## ringtail

This guy ?  Stair Treads Hardwood Ironbark | Building Materials | Gumtree Australia Caboolture Area - Deception Bay | 1072718171

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## Marc

Yep

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## Marc

Stairs are half there

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## ringtail

Where's the bullnose all round ?  :Tongue:  
And what's with the air drill ? No Bosch blue available ?  :Tongue:  :Tongue:   I gather you are bolting right through ?

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## Marc

The treads are a bit crude so will have to put them through the thicknesser. Have 3 mm to spare. Not much but enough I hope. I just put them up to see how it all looks and to see clearance at the top where 3 of the treads will need to be a bit shorter on one side. Once I get them all the same size I'll give them a clean up with the router. 
No bolting through If I can avoid it. I got some insert for wood but they are designed for softwood, fat chance getting them to thread into iron bark. 
Was thinking roof screws because of the flange. If they made 16g batten screws in 40 mm I'll use them, they too have a nice flange but have only seen them over 100 mm. The normal 14g batten screw are countersink and may look a bit off. Don't know yet. Will have a look at what's available at the fasteners shop.  
The balustrade post will be bolted through two steps to give them some bracing.  
The air drill is the only I can fit between the joist to bolt the brackets that hold up the stringers at the top. The bosch blue I have is corded and way too big for that. I did use the makita cordless for a few of the holes and cut an inch off the drill bit to make it fit. Surprisingly easy to cut through a 12 mm drill bit.
By the way, I was a bit surprised that the stringers are not spot on. I got them perfectly leveled top and bottom yet as I put the level further up each pair is a bit off, either one way or another left to right and also back to front. Some are falling back others falling forwards. Not much mind you talking one or two mill at most, still annoying for $1000. 
Another annoying thing is that in their website they say the 13 and 14 threads is RHS 100x50x5 yet this is 100x50x4. Still better than the one they sell in queensland that is 3mm but I feel a tad cheated. 
I did jump up and down with the 200k of treads on it and it does not flex, so I suppose it is OK, and if it is not, to make a post in the center for it is no big deal.

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## ringtail

"Manufacturing faults" = water runoff = tread life = win.  :Biggrin:

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## Marc

Concreted in one of the SHS post. Had 4 bags of concrete but turn out using 3 just for one so no go with the other ...  :Frown:  wasn't going to drive 100k for 2 bags of concrete, best luck next time.
Put the treads through the thicknesser ... hard work!!!! they are so heavy!!
Anyway the thicknesser made it (just) and very little tearing. Squared the sides with a planer and cut all to length.
Had a go with the reuter and it cuts the bullnose beautifully. Thought of using the router table but after the thicknesser adventure, forget it. Clamp to the bench and go go go.  
Hope that the cuts will not split this time. The cuts from the mill had all a lot of cracks. I painted the cuts with water based decking oil the crappy one that makes a film. Let's see. Crack would indicate that the iron bark is not dry, however it feels dry ... higrometer says 14...  :Sad3:

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## ringtail

14 whats ?

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## Marc

14% water content, measured with my Stihl moisture meter Wood moisture gauge -

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## Marc

A bit high I gather?

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## ringtail

A bit. I think 10 ish is about as good as it gets for a lump of timber like that fresh off the saw. They'll be fine in about 3 years  :Tongue: .  Get em on the right way and happy days

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## Marc

To be honest I only took one reading and the thingy is a bit temperamental. I'll try again on different areas, but you are right, should be more like 8 or 7

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## ringtail

No way you're going to get 7 or 8 in stair treads unless they're 40 years old and been sitting under someones house air drying  :Biggrin:

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## intertd6

I'd chuck that moisture meter in the bin, GOS timber will be at least 30% MC . If the treads are still the same size as you bought them with no dimensional difference then they are still 25% + MC , below that 25% they will start to shrink
inter

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## Marc

Yes, iron bark green is 27% so perhaps 14% now is what it is. Mm ... I'll know in a week what the fresh cuts are doing. If they start splitting again ... well bad luck I suppose. Nothing a bit of paint will not cover.

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## intertd6

There's no way they could have naturally lost that much moisture in less than a month in winter, in full sunlight in summer over a few months maybe. If you can cut a 10mm width section off an off cut , put it in the microwave for 3 X 10 minutes on low & measure the sectional size it is at the end, handy to know for allowing clearances for the bolts holding them onto the stringer cleats so as not cause splitting when the treads shrink.
inter

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## Barboots

> If you can cut a 10mm width section off an off cut , put it in the microwave for 3 X 10 minutes on low & measure the sectional size it is at the end, handy to know for allowing clearances...

  Pow. That's gold. Definitely made today's reading highlight, probably the week's and possibly the month's.  
Cheers, 
Steve

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## Marc

Yes, sure, I have a piece left over some 500x250x54 but what makes you think it was logged a month ago? I bought this from a timber merchant in queensland. Sure I can't tell when it was felled but it was certainly not last month.

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## intertd6

> Yes, sure, I have a piece left over some 500x250x54 but what makes you think it was logged a month ago? I bought this from a timber merchant in queensland. Sure I can't tell when it was felled but it was certainly not last month.

   I can see from your pics & the fresh metal stains on the treads that it looks like it's recently sawn, popping a bit in the microwave will be the conclusive evidence though, if you have a set of scales measure the weight before & after, with a simple formula calculation it will give the MC that the timber is before you force dry it, be careful with the microwave as the timber can sometimes smoke & catch fire.
i own a timber kiln & dry up to 6 m3 of green sawn timber at a go, taking it down to 10% MC & measure the boards before & during, when they have shrunk a certain percentage I'll microwave & weigh samples to find the exact MC.
inter

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## Marc

OK, I'll do that. What size should the sample be? I probably need to discard the edges and cut a 10mm strip along and from the middle?
By the way, why the microwave and not the oven?

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## ringtail

microwave works by going for the moisture, I think.

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## intertd6

> OK, I'll do that. What size should the sample be? I probably need to discard the edges and cut a 10mm strip along and from the middle?
> By the way, why the microwave and not the oven?

  just cut a cross sectional piece about  10 mm thick, get the bit from say at least 100 mm from a end already cut, the microwave is just quicker than putting the sample in an oven at 100'C for 24 hrs, when you microwave the weight of the sample will drop with each heating cycle because of lost moisture, when it won't lose anymore weight when heated the sample is fully dry & the benchmark for accurate calculations. Weigh the samples between each heating cycle, when you have 2 of the last cycles of no weight change its dry.
the formula is (wet weight - dry weight) / dry weight X 100
inter

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## Marc

Thank you Inter ... what sort of timber do you dry in your kiln?
Is it solar heating ?

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## intertd6

> Thank you Inter ... what sort of timber do you dry in your kiln?
> Is it solar heating ?

  blackbutt, tallowwood, white mahogany mainly, heated with a stove hot water system & circulation fans, every time i load the fire I vent the container .
inter

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## Marc

I had a go at moisture content calculations and got a mixture of 14 to 20, obviously they are all from different boards.
Finished machining and sanding the treads. Had to use the old Makita 4" belt sander, no need for pull ups or rowing time after sanding all 14!
 Bullnose all around check, 
oiled with paraffin oil, check. 
line up and screw with tek screws, check. No way to find 40mm batten screws, used tek 14 gage screws with a 6mm/15mm washer.  
Starting to look like stairs. The balustrade is going to be fun!

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## ringtail

Looking good Marc. Good to see someone else using stringlines

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## Marc

Yes, well, couldn't rely on the stringers, the tread brackets were all over the place. Fortunately you can adjust the tread forward and back so aligned the front edge and of course the sides,  and the back does not matter. 
Talking about stringline ... I put up a colorbond fence for my daughter last week and she got asked by the landscaper for the phone number of the person that put the fence up. She said my dad did it, and at all cost wanted to know how did I manage to get it so dead straight when it was uphill and stepped. 
She said ... well, he used a string !
Wow ...  :Rofl5:  
By the way I do like the paraffin oil, lets see how it keeps up. Very easy to apply, clean, easy on your hands, no drying, not sticky, no solvents, thinners nothing.

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## Marc

By the way ... I made the top rails of the balustrade around the upstairs deck with 140x45 blackbutt, and I am a bit disappointed that it is now full of little cracks. I can of course re sand and coat again and again, however for the stairs handrail I need something smooth and that does not crack and splinters. Merbau comes to mind but it will make a mess of the treads and deck below ... well deck below is already a mess, anyway ... any other timber that can stay stable for a handrail? or perhaps give the Merbau a good wash with hum .. what?  I'll use 90x45 on the edge this time. A bullnose will make it easy on the hand. Spotted Gum perhaps? Tallowood? Concrete?  :Smilie:

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## phild01

Looks good Marc.  You just made me think about the Merbau I will be using for my handrail.  If you remember I was going to use stainless wire but it all got a bit hard with the 4m rule.  Glass, as much as I didn't want to, is it now.  Didn't think about the tanin stains though :Annoyed:

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## Marc

I like merbau, if there was an effective way to wash off the tannin
May be if I can get some of that genuine brand name deck cleaner with magical properties?

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## intertd6

> By the way ... I made the top rails of the balustrade around the upstairs deck with 140x45 blackbutt, and I am a bit disappointed that it is now full of little cracks. I can of course re sand and coat again and again, however for the stairs handrail I need something smooth and that does not crack and splinters. Merbau comes to mind but it will make a mess of the treads and deck below ... well deck below is already a mess, anyway ... any other timber that can stay stable for a handrail? or perhaps give the Merbau a good wash with hum .. what?  I'll use 90x45 on the edge this time. A bullnose will make it easy on the hand. Spotted Gum perhaps? Tallowood? Concrete?

  id go tallowood , it surface checks the least of any of the AU HWDs that I know, BB & SG are very similar with surface checking problems.
inter

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## ringtail

Stainless handrail tube is not too badly priced

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## jimfish

Looking good Marc, the last set of stairs I done had a single centre steel stringer and I used 10 x 40 mm coach screws pre drilled and installed with a ratchet.

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## Marc

> id go tallowood , it surface checks the least of any of the AU HWDs that I know, BB & SG are very similar with surface checking problems.
> inter

  Tallowood it is then. 
 Yes, thought of going metal, but it would look a bit odd with the rest. It's easy enough to do the post and balusters metal and timber handrail. 
Central stringer. Yes, that was my first thought. Make a nice chunky central stringers and tread brackets to go with it. My problem is that I work alone and so I am limited to what I can lift and maneuver by myself. Anything over 100k is a bit of a problem. The stringer was going to be way over 150 and i had to take it to HDG and back. Needed a crane to put it in position. The place is remote enough that you struggle to get a concrete pump. Remember the pontoon ramp I was building? That was an adventure to mount it on my own and over water. Boy oh boy, I don't know how I pulled that one off.

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## frozensage

Sorry to butt in but I'm needing to replace external balustrades for my front porch and wanting staineless steel wires as the finish. All the places I am coming across are med size companies who asking for 10 weeks turnaround for the install. Are there no individual tradies, like tilers or brickies, who does balustrades? If I was abit more confident I would buy DIY kits, but being stairs, I feel it should be left to a seasoned professional. Finding the going really hard at the moment.

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## Marc

Not tilers or brickies but any carpenter that builds decks will be able to make a wire balustrade. They are not hard to make just needs a bit of attention to detail. 
I am sure someone from Melbourne will chime in. A big company will be expensive for a small job. Post a picture or 3 in your other thread. Someone will show up with ideas.

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## ringtail

> Sorry to butt in but I'm needing to replace external balustrades for my front porch and wanting staineless steel wires as the finish. All the places I am coming across are med size companies who asking for 10 weeks turnaround for the install. Are there no individual tradies, like tilers or brickies, who does balustrades? If I was abit more confident I would buy DIY kits, but being stairs, I feel it should be left to a seasoned professional. Finding the going really hard at the moment.

  I get all my gear from Miami Stainless (gold coast) and they are awesome. Very fast turn around. Great prices. Have a google. A good carpenter is the only trade to do this work although it's not out of the question for skilled DIY. Find a chippy, get him/her to take the measurements and order from Miami Stainless. $12 anywhere in OZ shipping last time I ordered.

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## frozensage

> I get all my gear from Miami Stainless (gold coast) and they are awesome. Very fast turn around. Great prices. Have a google. A good carpenter is the only trade to do this work although it's not out of the question for skilled DIY. Find a chippy, get him/her to take the measurements and order from Miami Stainless. $12 anywhere in OZ shipping last time I ordered.

  Sorry I didn't mention this originally but I want the posts to be aluminium/stainless steel finish. In this case would I still be calling a chippy?

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## Marc

Frozen ... it is always best to post one thread and stick to it. This way you have all the answers and questions in the same place for all to see and comment. 
A wire balustrade with SS post is a metalworker job ... in theory anyway. In practice those who do this are carpenters that finish off a deck they have built. So yes, you need a carpenter. Posts go first, wires second, tiles third ... wait a minute ... no no forget that, first go the wires, then the tiles, and last the post ... mm ... got it wrong again ... well you know what I mean  :Smilie:

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## ringtail

> Sorry I didn't mention this originally but I want the posts to be aluminium/stainless steel finish. In this case would I still be calling a chippy?

  Yep. Miami also do all the posts in a variety of styles and mounting formats

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## Marc

I am in the process of building the balustrade to this stairs and was thinking if making a low handrail additional to the normal one, say at 400 high for little people has any restrictions. Can it be seen as climbable? I have never seen this so don't really know.

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## ringtail

I don't think climbable has any bearing unless it's within proximity to a pool or over 4 mt in height above NGL

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## frozensage

> Frozen ... it is always best to post one thread and stick to it. This way you have all the answers and questions in the same place for all to see and comment. 
> A wire balustrade with SS post is a metalworker job ... in theory anyway. In practice those who do this are carpenters that finish off a deck they have built. So yes, you need a carpenter. Posts go first, wires second, tiles third ... wait a minute ... no no forget that, first go the wires, then the tiles, and last the post ... mm ... got it wrong again ... well you know what I mean

  
Yeah sorry mate. Will keep in mind next time. Cheers. 
Anyway, still looking for someone in Melbourne who would do install on DIY kits.

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## Marc

Slow progress with the balustrade. 35 degrees, it's all 35 degrees.  :Shock: Give me horizontal balustrade anyday.     https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...30b8213c8c5062

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## ringtail

I think you need a bigger hammer.  :Tongue:

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## PlatypusGardens

Oh right.....how did I miss this thread?

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## SlowMick

Love the infill panel - you have set the bar high for the rest of the panels though  :2thumbsup:

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## Marc

Nee ... the first panel is always the hardest, the next will be just repetition. 
I made a few errors in this one, the spacing is not the same between the 12mm bars and the 25mm tubes and the top bar has a slight bow. other than that I am happy with it. 
The next one will be a breeze

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## PlatypusGardens

So did you make the inserts and decorative bits?

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## Marc

Not worth it. Bought from Venice Italy for very little. They are all made with a Hebo machine and a forging press.
I could do the square upsetting bits by hand with a fullering tool and a lot of sweat. The twisty in the centre is easy, the hammered bars not so easy. All in all for $10 each not worth it. I'll post pictures when I do some forging of my own 
Bought from this guys. http://artisticwroughtiron.com.au/

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## Marc

Give me straight grills any day.     
27.5 degrees ... aaaaaah    
Spring is here !

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