# Forum Home Renovation Decking  Handrail Attachment to End Posts

## matw

Hey All,  
Have been trying to do some research on how best to attach a handrail to end posts.  
Attached is a picture of the deck we'll be giving a face lift. 
Firstly we'll be removing the very old balustrading as they're about to fall off and are not legal height. We'll be installing an 11 wire stainless system. In some sections between the posts we'll most likely be putting stainless newel posts in middle as the span is more than 2 meters to run the stainless wire through. These look the simplest as I can just screw these under the handrail and to the deck. Seemed simpler than wooden newel posts, as I'm guessing attaching these through the decking boards would be harder. 
Obviously there is no top handrail at the moment, so will be looking to install a standard 90x40mm handrail. The end posts are around 90x90's.  
The end post at the top of the stairs is a PITA because its only 900mm high, which means I'm going to have to put a 60mm section between the top of that post to sit the 90x40mm handrail on. Most likely attached with two coach bolts for the filler section, then another coach bolt to attach the handrail to the top of the post. Unless anyone else has any other ideas? 
How does one best attach the standard 90x40mm handrail to the end posts? Toe nail? Or toe nail with stainless screws countersunk? Toe nail + L brackets like I've seen some done? I can't really find any definitive help online so any advice would be muchly appreciated!

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## ringtail

G'day mate. Decks and handrails are my specialty. I love doing stainless balustrade and timber handrails. My advice is to go wider with the handrail. Not only does it look a whole lot better, but its better for putting drinks on and is easier to fix. Here are some photos. I have others that show the handrail connections in a lot more detail but they are on another computer - I'll put them up later.

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## matw

Hey Ringtail,  
Thanks for the photos mate, that's pretty much how ours will look when done I'm guessing (with the stainless newel posts in the centres). 
I'm guessing you normally use 90x90mm posts? What then, are the dimensions of the handrail? 
And yeah, definitely look forward to those close up photos of how you attach the handrail to the posts.  
Do you think my idea of sticking a block of timber 90x90mm x 60mm heigh on top of the post near the stairs to attach the handrail to (thus giving 1meter to the top of the handrail) would be ok?

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## ringtail

You could get away with the extension block if you are painting the posts as you can putty / bog up the join and sand it smooth. Is the short post structural ( as in all the way down to the footiings) or just there as a newell post for the stairs ? If its just bolted to one of the joists you could always replace it. The posts on this deck are laminated 90 x 90 kwila and the handrails are 140 x 42 solid kwila. I use that size handrail regardless of post size ( 90 or 100 ). Still waiting for the other photos.

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## intertd6

Relieing on skew nailing in a no no & a recipe for disaster, dowels or metal angle brackets are the go.
regards inter

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## ringtail

I cant stand angle brackets, I reckon they look poxy and cheap. They are strong though. As the photos will show ( when I get them ) the method I use is super strong and very safe, but does take time and a degree of craftsmanship to achieve good results. Small price to pay for something so important and visual. X 2 on the skew nails btw. Bear with me, I'll have them up tomorrow.

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## matw

ringtail; unfortunately it's structural, and goes straight down another 2 meters or so to the stirrup. Given that the posts are just treated pine (with unsightly saw tooth rough surface) we were just going to paint them a darker blue, so yeah your suggestion will probably work, of putting in the filler block piece then filling it up, sand and paint.  
Thanks for the replies so far guys, and will look forward to your photos and hand rail attachment method ringtail.

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## ringtail

Sorry for the delay, quiet a mission downloading and sorting. Anyway here they are. Basically all you need is a square and a good saw, sharp chisels and a bit of patience. As no 2 sticks of timber are the same and no 2 posts are exactly the same, each cut is done to measure. Even then, some of the posts have a slight twist  or some other quirk that means that most times the use of putty is required. When you join around a mid post, the timber coming from either side will nearly always be  different measurments because you are using two different pieces of timber or one end is the end of a piece and has shrunk a bit more etc.... But its pretty simple. Measure post, measure rail - deduct post from rail, divide by 2 - scribe this measurement up both sides of the rail. Measure post width ( inline with handrail) , divide by 2 - scribe this measurement across the end of handrail. You should have marked out a rectangle that is half of the post deep and a full post wide. Cut this piece out of the handrail and it should wrap around the post. If not, start chiseling until it does. These photos are not as informative as I hoped but I'm going back to this site tomorrow so I'll take some better ones.        
Once I have a good fit I check levels and then fix using 50 or 65 mm batten screws and 2 screws skewed into the post from underneath. They look bloody awful until sanded smooth. You look on the customers face is gold when they see all the plugs and crap hanging out but they cant believe the transformation when sanded. Going around the end posts is the same theory but a bit trickier because most post will have a twist in them - even a minute twist will mean a lot of work to get a neat wrap around mitre.

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## Bloss

:Repplus:  Love your work mate! Good to see the bracing on the uprights too!  :2thumbsup:

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## ringtail

Thanks mate. Mmmmmmmm, h a r d w o o d

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## bpj1968

looks great, do you have any problems with the joins with movement of the wood? 
Do those stairs still have a handrail to go in

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## ringtail

Stairs still had handrail and cable to do at that stage. That deck went completely under water in the floods. I went back to check on it a few weeks after and everything was fine still. I havent had any movement with the joins in handrails. With the kwila been KD, lots of glue on mitres and sealing them up asap they should be fine. I get a little bit of shrinkage of 100 x 100 F14/17 posts but its pretty minimal. The 90 x 90 kwila posts are very stable.

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## ringtail

A few others of the flooded deck

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## Hoppy

Ringtail, Nice work! love the connection of the handrails to posts. Pitty a few of the younger trades aren't interested in such workmanship.

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## Jim Carroll

> That deck went completely under water in the floods. I went back to check on it a few weeks after and everything was fine still.

  There must have been a lot of water there for this deck to go under. 
What was the mess like in the rest of the house. 
Like the attention to detail in your work has given me a couple of ideas for my deck :2thumbsup:

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## ringtail

Hoppy - thats why I work for myself and not for builders. I'm too slow and time is money, apparently. Most of the younger guys could do really top work but are corrupted by their boss and the speed is good myth. 
JC - in 1974 the house went under up to the gutter, this time it was around handrail height. The standard greasy mud throughout but the owners kayaked back in and were hosing it out as the water dropped. I'm not sure if they stripped out the upstairs. Awesome amount of water. The house next door is lowset and went right under about 2.5 mt.  
I was meant to go back to the other deck job today but didnt make it - hopefully tomorrow so I'll take photos of the handrail joins which are now about 7 months old.

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## r3nov8or

> ...
> I was meant to go back to the other deck job today but didnt make it ....

   Not spending too long in the forums, are you  :Smilie:

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## intertd6

With angle brackets they can be concealed & recessed behind the handrail so as to be not visible.
regards inter

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## ringtail

Yes I'm spending too much time on the forums - busted 
Thats true inter, fair bit of work involved aswell

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## intertd6

Ringtail when a handrail abutts a masonry wall or the handrail is narrower than the post your method isnt applicable.
regards inter

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## ringtail

Ok, made it back today and took some pics. These joins are now 7 months old and pretty stoked there is no movement at all, not even from the 100 x 100  posts thaty were pretty green :Biggrin: . Might get some shrinkage over winter if it ever stops raining  :Annoyed:

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## r3nov8or

Great work ringtail. I'm inspired.

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## ringtail

True on both counts inter - The angle bracket method you mentioned would work well there 
Cheers r3nov8or - get to it.

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## woodchip

Great workmanship Ringtail!,
I like the extra effort of the plugs, & glue of the mitre joints(construction adhesive or other?) 
Do you notch out your posts say 10mm, all around at the height of the handrail? & slide the handrail in? Takes a little more work but quite easy to do.
Because your results are as good as that method. 
Not sure how a bracket could be fully concealed?, im very interested in hearing about that method 
regards
woodchip

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## ringtail

I can see the merit in notching the post aswell woodchip but Ive never done in it in conjunction with with my standard method - maybe a bit of experimenting on the next one. Would definitley give a stronger connection if one thought it were necessary.

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## intertd6

An angle can be concealed by turning the angle into the end section of the handrail, slighty narrower than it & not higher than the top of the HR, so its recessed in the bottom as well so unless you look from underneath the HR the angle isn't visible, batten screwed or bolted horizontally, then the HR is fastened through the angle from below.
Notching the post has limitations to how much material can be removed & where, but is still a good method, architects & formally trained designers prefer dowells.
regards inter

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## matw

Some fantastic ideas here, thanks for all the great replies guys! Certainly has given me something to go off and feel I have a bit more information behind me to attempt my first handrail install! 
Ringtail; inspirational mate, very very nice finish.

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## ringtail

Thanks mate

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## Bloss

> Thanks mate. Mmmmmmmm, h a r d w o o d

  Good when ya can get it . . . and it's good wood . . .  :Wink:

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## ringtail

I think I'll go back to been a welder or motor mechanic if / when the good wood runs out - or just be a site supervisor - lol

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## hoidey

Love the work ringtail.  I am having a little dilema in my head about finishing my handrails.  I have 65lm to do so want to get it right.  I acquired some 6 x 4 solid kwila so i am ripping them down to get a 4 x 4 post and a 42 x 100 handrail and mid intermediate support in between posts.  This has been a good financial win for the family as i ended up getting the solid 6 x 4 for $20lm !!! cash and they are very nice gained kwila/merbau.  I would like to do your method but am restricted to my handrail being the same width as the post.  I dont like the idea either and am trying to think of an alternative.  Maybe offset the handrail from the post but not sure how that would look or widen the handrail with another strip up the side?? Like you (but half as skilled) i am very slow but I dont mind taking time to get it very right as i will only do this once on my place and i have to stare at it for the next 30 years.  O and do you like to aris everything or only parts etc Ideas?

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## goldie1

Brilliant work ringtail I'm moving house next year and now I know how I'm going to do my next deck. 
What glue and filler should I use on the joints?

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## ringtail

Hoidey - the solid kwila handrails already come pencil round from the mill. As do kwila posts. With hardwood I always knock the edges off with the planer or if getting fancy I'll run the the round over bit  in my router. 
Goldie - I use exterior grade  Sellies PVA glue for everything and exterior " wood mate" putty in a range of colours to match the timber colour. I sometimes mix the putties to get a better match

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## hoidey

Thanks ringtail.  Heres a couple of photos of my progress this week.  Basically a before and current shot.  It's a little nightmarish as we have bought an old timber mill house on 5 acres.  The guys who built it obviously had a lot of timber and not much thought as everything is inconsistent and very rough.  Timber sizes change, joins in timber in stupid spots and the top beam is all over the shop so i have to custom some very interesting checks/housings etc.  May have to box it out later to hide the relational difference between post and beam. I am arising all posts.

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## ringtail

Looking good mate. Looks like some bad ass bush around there.

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## 17SOK

Hey Ringtail, what's the best way to get neat hole (well neat enough to insert the dowel cleanly) without tearing the timber slightly around the edge?  I had a couple of goes at this on some offcuts and the results were less than spectacular... was a new drill bit too  :Frown:   Was thinking I may have to use a small hole saw (say 25mm) to start with?

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## ringtail

G'day 17SOK, if you are referring to the plugs that cover the screws, I use a spade bit to bore the right size hole ( depth and diameter) for the plug I'm using, then go right through with a pilot drill for the screw and finally a clearance hole in the handrail ( so the screw has clearance in the handrail ). There are quiet expensive boring bits out there that you can get as part of a plug cutting kit, but I just use good sharp spade bits. No chance with a hole saw, it will butcher it.

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## 17SOK

Excellent... will have another go now  :Smilie:   Very excited about this method you use, as it had me a little stumped as to how I could acheive such a neat finish that is stucturally sound as well.

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## ringtail

You can buy the plug cutters at bunnies but while they are a decent brand, they dont work very well - until modified, which is a bit of trial and error. They plugs that they cut are a loose fit in the spade bit hole (all sizes) so I had to grind down the spade bit to get a better fitting plug. A lot of rooting around to get the right fit but once done its good. No doubt if I lashed out and bought a expensive plug cutting kit ( carbatech etc...) it would be good out of the box.

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## hoidey

Thanks ringtail.  As i said before, it is a mission as the bottom bearer and top beam are not plumb and the top beam is not very straight but the bottom bearer is.  This means every cut is avery unique and can be quite complicated.  I should post a few photos of to give you a laugh.  The joy of working with old rough houses.  Went to the local hardware and 1x 5/8 plug cutter was 53 bucks!! So i had a look on ebay (cheapies so i expect hassles.).  I was goin to use a 5/8 spade bit with the 5/8 plug cutter (yes i know i'm a bloody genius by stating the obvious).  The ones i am looking at say that they cut a tapered plug so that you get a neat fit. hmmmm

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## ringtail

Dont believe the specs on the plug cutters. My 5/8 cutter cuts about 15 .4 mm so a 15 mm spade bit is too small, 16 mm too big and 5/8 too big also.5/8 is (15.87 mm) Hence the grinding down of spade bits to get it right. Only need to take a touch of each side but its trial and error. Tapered plugs work well but it all comes down to the quality of the cutter.

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## hoidey

OK.  I hand filed my 16mm down to roughly 15.5mm.  Now i think i will take the plunge and buy a nice quality tapered bit just to save hassle.  For that bit extra it will save me hours and hours.  That side of the verandah you can see is only one of the short sides.  There are 4 sides and the other two are longer.  about 65lm all the way round so the extra cash will save me heaps of time.  Ta mate.

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## ringtail

Sweet. A set of verniers are great for measuring accurately. I'd buy another 16 mm spade bit while your at it, just in case the first one is too small.

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## hoidey

Well heres a couple of photos to update.  Things are slow as i work during the week.  Still trying to find an accurate plug cutter  the 5/8 one i bought is not even close about 1/2 mm out.  Now as expected and was stated by ringtail before each post has it's own little 'personality' and after cutting the first handrail i have smal issues with gaps.  Not sure weather to take the time to scribe each cut or use putty.  It's about a 1 1/2mm gap.  I also have drawn up some 'custom' handrail options i will share later when i can scan my sketches to see if you guys reckon the idea has credit or not.

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## ringtail

I'd probably go the putty on that join. If you try and scribe that piece the cut maybe perfect but you will now have that gap all the way across the post, unless its a *tight fit* now in which case it may be good. If your plug is too small ( loose) grind the spade bit down a touch on both sides until things fit nicely.

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## hoidey

Yeah i started taking the time to scribe after that first one and now I'm getting a nice result. I scribe one side and get it right (sometimes it takes a couple of cuts adjusting the angle slightly) then i sit the overlength handrail in a perpendicular position (but on an angle cause it's too long) and this allows me to get an idea of the second cut.  It's amazing how 1/2 or even a 1/4 a degree can change things.  Like i said, i probably cut a rail 3 or 4 times but the result is better than the alternative.  I can use that first one i buggered up on another post where the span is smaller and recut it.  I will regrind that spade bit but will need to source another cutter for the ones i have already done.  Thanks for feedback ringtail, it's good to have someone to bounce off.

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## ringtail

Keep going mate. Do it once, do it properly. Makes the beer go down even better sitting on your deck looking at your craftsmanship. Its a pitty that most people that come over dont even know what they are looking at or the effort it took to create. But you will always know :Wink:

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## hoidey

Another Sat and the handrails on the long run are done.  Got the scribing down pat now and all joins are nice and neat.  Here's a pic of that idea I talked about earlier.  I just took a picture of the sketch.  I think this idea does two things.  1 Aesthetics (but i guess that only opinion) and 2 it gives another option to handrail fixing as I cant stand the idea of brackets either.  It would be very strong if it is fixed to both post and handrail and then plugged like ringtails idea does on his handrails.  What do ya think of a contrasting timber colour as a plug?  Just to break up all that kwila/merbau.

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## hoidey

This weeks log.  All but ready to string the wire. Mid balaustrades are going in today and finished off handrails.  Made a jig for the wires knowing my handrails are spot on.  That first photo, ringtail, is one of the compound thingymajig corner post cuts i had to try and match that we talked about earlier.

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## goldie1

Some nice work there mate. Now I know how mine should have looked. Oh well may be on the next one  :2thumbsup:

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## ringtail

Awesome job mate. Lets hope the shrinkage is minimal and eveything stays nice and tight. ( said the actress to the bishop) :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

Awesome job mate. Lets hope the shrinkage is minimal and eveything stays nice and tight. ( said the actress to the bishop) :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## Bros

> ( said the actress to the bishop)

  Showing your age there, I haven't heard they phrase used for quite a long time

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## ringtail

I'm not that old. Its something my older ( much, much older) brother picked up with his golfing mates. Its amazing how often you can slip it in ( said the actress to the bishop) to conversation.

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## hoidey

Just noticed the second page.  lol. Strung it up she looks great.  Have to rework the levels for the gutters as they were all over the place since I restumped it and now veranda posts are throwing thngs around too.  So a few more downpipes etc to keep it dryer in those freaky storms we get that drop heavily.  She's taken a bit of work to her this far as she was ready to fall over when we got here.

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