# Forum More Stuff Owner Builders Forum  Owner Builder - Am I kidding myself?

## Ghoti

So...planning a significant job.  House is a 1930's weatherboard, roughly 10 squares, in generally poor condition. 
We will be demolishing the rear of the house and adding a family room, another bedroom, bathroom, laundry and 'alfresco' area.  Once competed we'll have 18sq under roofline plus a garage and carport. 
I've done my white card and OB online "course & eAssessment" (a Victorian pre-requisite) and paid the $98 for the Certificate of Consent.  Plans are drawn and lodged for Town Planning permit (due to a heritage overlay).  I've done the usual DIY pergola, decking, plastering etc at our previous place, but have no formal building experience.   I have ~30 years Project Management experience in IT and logistics. 
I have heard that many carpenters, while not registered builders, oversee jobs for owner builders effectively doing the builder role without the formal responsibility.  Have any of you encountered this, and is it a good idea?  Clearly as the one legally responsible I'd still need to keep a close eye on things, but figured this may somewhat offset my lack of on-site skills. 
Thoughts? 
Cheers,
Scott

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## JB1

You really need a good experienced carpenter who has experience with renovations and is switched on.  
I've owner built a house before and starting another soon but extending is harder than building from scratch. 
You also need to get a proper 1 day whitecard training done face to face, not online for an owner builder permit in Vic these days. Rules changed last year. I did mine with Edways, piece of cake. 
Good luck, I no doubt you can do it but aim to make as little mistakes as possible. 
==========

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## toooldforthis

I did similar with a similar background on my first place many moons ago.
You need to get your good trades lined up. doesn't sound like that yet?
You dont mention construction materials?
Mine was mostly timber - substructure on brick piers, frame, cladding. tin roof.
Brick walls on slab for wet areas.
It all comes down to having good reliable trades, even then they probably won't be considerate of next trade coming after. 
Your plans need to be clear and you need to check as you go. you dont want problems compounding.
Make sure you know all the trades you want and in what order. and who is supplying what.
Your project management experience will help a lot. 
Good luck. 
PS if you are using recycled materials, as I did, you need to make sure trades are happy with that.

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## Ghoti

> You really need a good experienced carpenter who has experience with renovations and is switched on.  
> I've owner built a house before and starting another soon but extending is harder than building from scratch. 
> You also need to get a proper 1 day whitecard training done face to face, not online for an owner builder permit in Vic these days. Rules changed last year. I did mine with Edways, piece of cake. 
> Good luck, I no doubt you can do it but aim to make as little mistakes as possible. 
> ==========

  Thanks for the reply JB1. 
Yes, I did the full day White Card - also with Edways as it turns out  :Biggrin:  
I have also done the VBA online assessment required in order to get a "Certificate of Consent" which I'll need (along with a Town Planning permit) to get a building permit.  I have a former neighbour that was a builder but is now interstate, and he has put me onto a carpenter he says is good, but have yet to meet and make up my own mind.  The builder that the carpenter is a subby for does high end renovations/extensions, so I take it that's a good recommendation.   
Cheers,
Scott

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## ebf

Agree with JB1. I'm in the middle of an owner build and having a good chippy makes a huge difference. Sure, I could probably have a go at most jobs but would it be the right way to go? Probably not. Having someone experienced alongside you means you're doing things right the first time.

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## Ghoti

Well finally come out the end of that delightful process called 'Town Planning'!  Simple application , no Objections, but almost 3 months in the making.  Catching up with the draftsperson to make some changes to kitchen layout (and walls) before completing construction drawings and getting a building permit. 
Hopefully will get the Chippy locked in before Christmas for a New Year start!

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## JB1

Unlikely you'll be able to get the building permit by Christmas if you haven't started the engineering plans. 
====

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## manofaus

My DA took 6 weeks to be approved. When I changed my plans to suit a different shed, took another 6 weeks. When I went to get the construction certificate it took 3 days. All I showed them was the foundation plans (from an engineer) and told them the company that was doing the framing. They said that when I order the framing I need to then give them a copy to approve so I can start on that part of the build. It seems with my local council that I don't need to present all the information straight away, as long as it is done before I start on that part of the build.

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## NZC

> Well finally come out the end of that delightful process called 'Town Planning'!  Simple application , no Objections, but almost 3 months in the making.  Catching up with the draftsperson to make some changes to kitchen layout (and walls) before completing construction drawings and getting a building permit. 
> Hopefully will get the Chippy locked in before Christmas for a New Year start!

  If you can lock in a chippy now, to start in the new year, to me that is a bad thing.

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## Ghoti

Well, seems I let my optimism get the better of me. 
So, when the house was built in the 1930's it seems it was built too close to the fence...well, at least by 2017 standards.  I was somewhat shocked as new estates seem to have the houses so much closer! but the don't have wide eaves and with our eaves and spouting we are 50mm too close to the fence.  Not an issue for the old house, but it means I need a consent from council to build the extension in alignment with the old house. 
So I need to apply for consent to build so close to the fenceline.  Shouldn't be a problem coz the neighbouring property is public open space so no-one to shadow.  Also need consent for height for the garage which backs onto a council laneway. 
I also need a soil test.  I figured putting the stumps in at the same depth the council approved for restumping would suffice, but no.  Not sure what will happen if the test says they need to be deeper? 
So hopes of an early start are disappearing.   :Frown:

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## Ghoti

Thought it was time for a quick update.  Short story - we're still jumping through hoops in paperwork. 
We applied for our Reports & Consents, but Christmas clearly is a bad time.  We lodged and paid the fees, then received a letter mid January acknowledging receipt of our application on 10 January and advising a response would be forthcoming in 21 days.   Called the council and learned that the "application date" is the day their records department register it; not the day the form is lodges and fees paid. 
To be fair we got a list of council requirements two weeks later, so didn't need to wait 3 weeks.  While most requirements were innocuous, the killer one was a letter from our Building Surveyor confirming no further Reports and Consents were required.  I'd planned to get consents, complete construction drawings, then go for the permit.  Nonetheless we went through the process of engaging a building surveyor, and clearly stated our immediate requirement was the letter. 
We went with a survey company that claimed to turn around building permits in 10 days, and suggested the letter would be somewhat quicker.  On the 14th business day we finally got the Building Surveyor's list of demands - most of which referred to omissions in the construction drawings that were not submitted (we submitted the Town Planning permit drawings) and some which related to features we don't have (e.g. internal staircases).  As part of the requirements a title re-establishment survey has been requested...so now its off to engage a surveyor.  I dread to think what happens next if the survey shows a discrepancy, which I'd expect given advances in survey technology between 2018 and when the land was subdivided in 1928.

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## OBBob

Well hopefully you're lucky and the boundary is out in the other direction. I'm a bit surprised that the boundary wasn't the first thing you checked when you were 50mm too close. My fence was out by 150mm when I had it surveyed properly. 
You're certainly learning all the lessons, good luck with it.

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## Ghoti

Time for an update...and perhaps a vent at the same time. 
Engaged the land surveyor, and the survey came back confirming the fence was correctly positioned.   Forwarded that off to the building inspector and requested his letter confirming we needed no further reports and consents. 
Two weeks later the Building Surveyor provided a letter saying we also need a 409 consent, for a setback less than 7.6m.   That seemed odd, the setback was part of the Town Planning permit, which the Building Surveyor had a copy.  I emailed the council's Municipal Building Surveyor to check, and received a reply stating that he discussed it with the Municipal Town Planner who confirmed that the setback had been considered and approved.  I forwarded the email to our private Building Surveyor who, 3 days later, responded that his experience was that Town Planning did not consider setbacks and the additional report and consent (for the setback) was required.  Odd given the council confirned, in writing, it had been considered. 
Anyway, I've lodged the request with Council and am now awaiting their response which should be received within 21 business days...sheesh! 
I'm now beginning to fear the build process. The private Building Surveyor has been unresponsive thus far. Then the response received imposes requirements that seem superfluous (e.g. stair and antislip treatment for non-existent internal stairways, the 409 consent).  I envisage on-site dust-ups with tradies being directed to do additional (unnecessary)  work, and delays for the re-inspections this will trigger. 
I am now wondering whether I should look to terminate the Building Surveyor and engage another.  It seems that I can only terminate in the event the Building Surveyor becomes incapacitated (i.e insolvent, mental impairment, loss of licence, ceases to practice, etc), but as no permits have been requested or issued perhaps I don't need to terminate and can just vote with my feet.  Well..I have at least 21 days to sort that out. 
Worst thing is a place 2 doors down advertised for town planning  a week after us, and they have completed the external build and are doing the internal fitout.  Something my wife reminds of nearly every day   :Cry:

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## OBBob

Gee, that's tough. The whole point of going with a private surveyor is that they are quicker... but you seem to be getting better responses from the council. 
If it makes you feel any better, it's often a different person who does the on site inspections to that who processes your initial application.

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## ebf

Who is the council you're dealing with? Ask around - some councils are great and definitely worth going through the build process with. Mine was really good up until the final inspection when we got some totally random bloke who seemed to like to swing his appendage around. He's no longer with the council, no doubt due to all the complaints he had.

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## pharmaboy2

Can’t sack the private certifer unfortunately.  Not many people appreciate how important it is to get this choice right at the start.  Personally, I feel,that the primary skill of a certifier is CTA - covering their ass.  In liew of actually doing something  or making sure it’s done right, what they actually want is letters and certifications from everyone else so that when it goes tits up they can blame someone else.

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## Ghoti

> Cant sack the private certifer unfortunately.  Not many people appreciate how important it is to get this choice right at the start.  Personally, I feel,that the primary skill of a certifier is CTA - covering their ass.  In liew of actually doing something  or making sure its done right, what they actually want is letters and certifications from everyone else so that when it goes tits up they can blame someone else.

  That's the feeling I'm getting.  Carport setback is aligned with current building, and neighboring buildings.  Carport is permitted to encroach on setback by 2.5m, however we are only encroaching 100mm and have a town Planning permit and an email from Council's Building Surveyor saying its OK.  Requesting a formal Report & Consent seems overkill.     

> Who is the council you're dealing with? Ask around - some councils are great and definitely worth going through the build process with.

    Monash council in Victoria.  Both Planning and Building departments are approachable and helpful.  Unfortunately as pharmaboy2 says, can't sack the Private Building Surveyor unless he/she is proven unable to complete the job. I suspect this, along with low likelihood of getting another job from an owner builder, removes the incentive to provide a good service.   

> If it makes you feel any better, it's often a different person who does the on site inspections to that who processes your initial application.

    I hope you're right!

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## sol381

By building surveyor do you mean certifier..most are uneducated idiots who have no idea about construction.  The engineer will do most of the inspections anyway.. certifier just does final inspection and collect the form 16s.

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## Ghoti

> By building surveyor do you mean certifier..most are uneducated idiots who have no idea about construction.  The engineer will do most of the inspections anyway.. certifier just does final inspection and collect the form 16s.

  Nah, I mean Registered Building Surveyor, being the authority that grants building permits and ensures compliance with the Building Act in Victoria.  As per the Victorian Building Authority website:  

> Registered Building Surveyors provide independent oversight of buildings and building work throughout the construction process, and upon completion of construction ensure that buildings are safe for use, accessible and energy efficient.

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## phild01

Bit funny down there, what we call a pc they call a surveyor.  Wondering what they call what we call a surveyor :Confused:

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## OBBob

A surveyor. Sometimes your surveyor will ask you to get your surveyor to provide a survey. 😂

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## sol381

building certifier ..building surveyor..same S$%t different name..

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## pharmaboy2

Seems like a bastardisation of an existing profession.  Quantity surveyors are the natural place to start but there aren’t enough, so we ended up with the name but from varying qualification routes.  Ultimately the term survey has a meaning, and it doesn’t fit someone who approves a building construction and monitors it. 
the downside if having states acting independently - stoopid constitution

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## OBBob

They didn't used to be called surveyor in Victoria but the old name escapes me.

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## Marc

They probably called them @@@@@ @@@@ or may be @@@@@@  :Smilie:

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## Bigboboz

> Can’t sack the private certifer unfortunately.

  Wow, I didn't know that. I can see the arguments why but...   

> Not many people appreciate how important it is to get this choice right at the start.  Personally, I feel,that the primary skill of a certifier is CTA - covering their ass.

  I can see why this would then happen as a result of not being able to get sacked.  There's only downside for them doing their job.  Service? What's that!  I'm considering going down the owner build route and figured getting the right certifier was important but didn't realise how permanent the wrong was is...I've had to sack some trades and you work that out pretty quickly.   

> In liew of actually doing something  or making sure it’s done right, what they actually want is letters and certifications from everyone else so that when it goes tits up they can blame someone else.

  Based on Ghoti's experience, they want more than they need! 
Thanks for the updates Ghoti, all useful info

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## pharmaboy2

Incidentally, I suspect some sort of the motivation to bring in all these certifications is to improve tax compliance.  The more paperwork there is, the more of a trail for tax there is

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## JB1

> I am now wondering whether I should look to terminate the Building Surveyor and engage another.  It seems that I can only terminate in the event the Building Surveyor becomes incapacitated (i.e insolvent, mental impairment, loss of licence, ceases to practice, etc), but as no permits have been requested or issued perhaps I don't need to terminate and can just vote with my feet.  Well..I have at least 21 days to sort that out.

  You may not be able to terminate the arrangement with the current building surveyor even though permit hasn't been issued. 
The Building Surveyor may have lodged a section 80 with the council, which is to inform the council they have been appointed as the BS. 
Call the council up to see if a section 80 has been lodged. 
I terminated my arrangement with my BS before the building permit was issued as we disagreed with their requirements to get a building permit, but before a section 80 was lodged. 
Of course I spoke to a new private BS before intending to terminate the old BS. The new BS would only take on the project if the old BS has not lodged a section 80. 
Of course the old BS would also have to agree to be released. Cost me $1500 to terminate the arrangement with old BS and months of time, however if we disagreed at an early stage over trivial matter I felt best to find a more reasonable BS as I'm building a whole house and a lot of things can be disputed. 
If section 80 has been lodged you're in a world of pain. http://www.vba.vic.gov.au/disputes-a...lding-surveyor 
I'm also currently OB in Monash Counil, let me know if you require a reasonable BS.  
====

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## JB1

> Incidentally, I suspect some sort of the motivation to bring in all these certifications is to improve tax compliance.  The more paperwork there is, the more of a trail for tax there is

  Hmmm I'd say if ass covering and limiting any liabilities rather than tax.   
====

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## Ghoti

> They didn't used to be called surveyor in Victoria but the old name escapes me.

  Last extension I did was 2002 at which time they had the humble title of Building Inspector.  :Redface:    

> I terminated my arrangement with my BS before the building permit was issued as we disagreed with their requirements to get a building permit, but before a section 80 was lodged.

   Thanks for the tip JB1.  The new BS company I spoke with didn't mention this, only that they'd be happy to take on the work if the old BS agreed to terminate.    

> Of course the old BS would also have to agree to be released. Cost me $1500 to terminate the arrangement with old BS and months of time, however if we disagreed at an early stage over trivial matter I felt best to find a more reasonable BS as I'm building a whole house and a lot of things can be disputed.

  
And here is where the risk lies.  Cost of getting out of the arrangement vs costs of delay in current arrangement.  Anyway, before torturing myself about this I'll find out if section 80 has been lodged.

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## Ghoti

My (not yet terminated) Building Surveyor has advised I will need a Dilapidation Survey of the neighbour's property, in accordance with Section 94 of the Building Act, prior to the issue of a Building Permit.  Kinda seems another over the top requirement to me. 
The extension includes building a garage with our house forming one wall and one wall on the boundary using the HardieSmart system - basically a stud wall lined on both sides with cement sheet and filled with fire-retardant insulation.  The wall will be supported by a 300mm x 600mm concrete footing.  Our existing driveway will need to be cut to allow for the excavation.  The neighbour has a gravel path on their side of the fence, and the fence is ~1400mm from their house.      
I would expect that the only invasive action would be to remove the fence to allow access to waterproofing the wall and painting,  Theoretically it could be prefabbed and lifted into place with the fence intact...though admittedly it would take quite an effort to lift an 8mx3m wall!. 
So...is dilapidation survey another @@@@@ covering requirement, or a pragmatic risk mitigation?

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## bonazoo

Hi Ghoti,
I am also doing Owner builder in Monash council, I think all the building surveyor requirements should be already look at by your architectural and engineer. ( if they have experience). I got the similar request from my building surveyor. They will always ask all this questions at start. I feel like it is just a copy and paste letter.
I would love to see how you going with your build

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## Ghoti

> I feel like it is just a copy and paste letter.
> I would love to see how you going with your build

  I'm sure its a standard letter given the number of requirements its has which bear no apparent relevance to my project.  Would be good to compare notes  :Redface: )

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## Godzilla73

Mine was littered with random requests for things that weren't applicable to our owner build as well. The worst was the paper work for the final inspection, out of the 14 items only 5 applied to us.  
Just keep up the communication, be polite no need to get all high and mighty about it and go to town pointing out all their mistakes that you've paid thousands for...  
Be interested to know how many times your inspector pulls his tape out and uses it. Saw my guys tape twice... 
====

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## Ghoti

> My (not yet terminated) Building Surveyor has advised I will need a Dilapidation Survey of the neighbour's property, in accordance with Section 94 of the Building Act, prior to the issue of a Building Permit.  Kinda seems another over the top requirement to me. 
> The extension includes building a garage with our house forming one wall and one wall on the boundary using the HardieSmart system - basically a stud wall lined on both sides with cement sheet and filled with fire-retardant insulation.  The wall will be supported by a 300mm x 600mm concrete footing.  Our existing driveway will need to be cut to allow for the excavation.  The neighbour has a gravel path on their side of the fence, and the fence is ~1400mm from their house.      
> I would expect that the only invasive action would be to remove the fence to allow access to waterproofing the wall and painting,  Theoretically it could be prefabbed and lifted into place with the fence intact...though admittedly it would take quite an effort to lift an 8mx3m wall!. 
> So...is dilapidation survey another @@@@@ covering requirement, or a pragmatic risk mitigation?

  So today I got a response from our Building Surveyor on two questions I posed just over a week ago.   
On the positive side he approved our proposal to omit the first 500mm of colorbond sheeting between the garage and carport, negating the need for a huge firewall on the neighbours' boundary and the need to submit an amended Town Planning permit (though a secondary consent is still required to remove the roof sheeting). 
On the less positive side he advised I need to detail the shoring to be used to prevent trench cave in.  The trench is the 300mm wide x 400mm deep trench we are digging for the strip footing for the garage wall.  Having googled shoring methods steel plates and hydraulic rams seems overkill.   
Any suggestions?  I was thinking maybe star posts and some ply.  I know the neighbour doesn't care if I disturb his gravel sideway as long as I make it good afterwards.  As for a "dilapidation survey" I was thinking some photos signed by the neighbour. 
I think once this is cleared I'll be perilously close to getting a building permit!! 
P.S. I thought the footing was 600mm deep, but its actually only 400mm deep.

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## Bigboboz

> On the less positive side he advised I need to detail the shoring to be used to prevent trench cave in.  The trench is the 300mm wide x 400mm deep trench we are digging for the strip footing for the garage wall.  Having googled shoring methods steel plates and hydraulic rams seems overkill.

  What's the BS' concern if a 400mm trench caves? Safety?

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## Ghoti

> What's the BS' concern if a 400mm trench caves? Safety?

  '
His concern is not safety, but rather   

> ...to prevent soil collapse from the neighbour's side

  EDIT: I have advised Building Surveyor that neighbour only has gravel covering soil on his side and house foundation is 1400mm from boundary.

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## bonazoo

first. Talk about my building project. I am building a new apartment (Unit 2) and modify the existing house just relocation of carport and internal wall etc...(unit 1)
Now we are ready to build with all the drawings etc. so we get a building surveyor to look at all the docs. He ask me to get the secondary consent for all the changes and adding lot more words in the drawing. This is not a big deal but...
We miss out a existing window in the drawing at the existing single level house. So council say "public notice" may require because the "overlooking regulation". the window is in the house for like as long as the house.

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## OBBob

Is it an important window? Just include a visual screen in your design.

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## bonazoo

It is an existing window. I don't want to change anything about it.

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## bonazoo

I move it to new threat

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## Ghoti

> So today I got a response from our Building Surveyor on two questions I posed just over a week ago.   
> On the positive side he approved our proposal to omit the first 500mm of colorbond sheeting between the garage and carport, negating the need for a huge firewall on the neighbours' boundary and the need to submit an amended Town Planning permit (though a secondary consent is still required to remove the roof sheeting). 
> On the less positive side he advised I need to detail the shoring to be used to prevent trench cave in.  The trench is the 300mm wide x 400mm deep trench we are digging for the strip footing for the garage wall.  Having googled shoring methods steel plates and hydraulic rams seems overkill.   
> Any suggestions?  I was thinking maybe star posts and some ply.  I know the neighbour doesn't care if I disturb his gravel sideway as long as I make it good afterwards.  As for a "dilapidation survey" I was thinking some photos signed by the neighbour. 
> I think once this is cleared I'll be perilously close to getting a building permit!! 
> P.S. I thought the footing was 600mm deep, but its actually only 400mm deep.

  So, time for an update. 
Seemed like all was good to go.  Council and Building surveyor agreed that a clear to sky gap of 500mm between carport and garage would satisfy the requirements for separation between carport and garage removing the need for a firewall alongside the carport (even though the roof beams remain attached).  During all the firewall negotiations we found that an error had been made on the drawings with a spouting drawn on the outside of the wall, when it should have been a box gutter and parapet. 
Council Building Surveyor wrote to neighbour to advise of additional height and gave 2 weeks for objections.  Neighbour did not object.  All good, however the Planning department advised that the change to the garage wall was too significant for a secondary consent, so would require a Town Planning Permit amendment, triggering re-advertising. 
Council were very supportive though, and agreed that if the neighbour was prepared to provide a letter stating they had no objections it would satisfy the legal requirements and avoid the need for re-advertising and additional fees.  So I bowled in to see the neighbour, and was quickly advised of his disappointment being "put in this position".  24hrs later the Neighboure advised he wasn't happy. 
While the carport is aligned with the setback of all the buildings in the street, the neighbour's lounge is set back ~850mm from the rest of his house.  This means that he will see the front ~850mm of the carport when walking from his driveway to his front door.  He would be happy if the carport was 850mm shorter, though I wouldn't be happy with a 4650mm long carport of which only 4150mm would be roofed. 
So, called the Council to discuss.  Yes I now have to re-advertise, however it is only for the garage wall.  While the neighbour can object to the carport, only objections to the garage wall will be considered as the carport is not being significantly altered from the prior approval.  Furthermore as Council have already provided him the opportunity to object to the height and position of the garage wall, and he didn't, any objection he lodges on that basis would be dismissed. 
So, basically we will satisfy the process, but not the neighbour.  Such is life.

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## Ghoti

Just thought I'd do a quick update. 
As luck would have it the Planner dealing with our matter fell ill.   As a result our application advertising period didn't commence until mid-July.  So another month of sitting and twiddling with thumbs before we can realistically start thinking about a commencement date for the building works.

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## Ghoti

So finally we got to advertising.  Saw our Councillor pay a visit to the next door neighbour and figured that couldn't be good.  Sure enough, they lodged an objection however it was against the height of the garage wall on the basis that it will block light from his bedroom windows.    
In discussion with council they conceded he had previously passed up the opportunity to object to the garage wall height, we are on his south side, and there is a 1050mm light court "clear to the sky" which meets regulations.  However council asked that we reduce the wall height by deleting the box gutter and parapet and instead using a standard gutter and flashing on top of the wall.  We've agreed (means leaves will fall into his place rather than collecting behind the wall) and Council have issued a Notice of Decision being to issue a permit.   
Neighbour now has 28 days to lodge an objection with VCAT.  I suspect the $850 lodgement fee will test the neighbour's conviction but regardless its more thumb twiddling for us.  I never would have thought it would take a year to get permits for what is a fairly simple build.

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## Marc

I suggest to collect urine in a bucket for a week, let it rot nicely and then pour the content under his front door.  :Smilie:

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## Ghoti

> I suggest to collect urine in a bucket for a week, let it rot nicely and then pour the content under his front door.

  Its tempting....

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## bonazoo

hey Ghoti,
any news? just want to hear from you since you and me both on Monash Council 
for me I am finally got my Building permit and it take like 3 months from the time I paid my building Surveyor.

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## Ghoti

> hey Ghoti,
> any news? just want to hear from you since you and me both on Monash Council 
> for me I am finally got my Building permit and it take like 3 months from the time I paid my building Surveyor.

  Council has issued a "Notice of Decision to Grant Permit" however the neighbour has until 12th September to lodge an objection at VCAT.   Assuming they don't lodge, the council can then issue their Reports and Consents and the Building Surveyor can issue a permit.  Of ocurse if they lodge an objection, its more delays. 
My Owner Builder registration expires on 14th September, then I need to go through the registration process once more...another delay.  I never in my wildest dreams thought it would take 12 months to get the permits.

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## JB1

How long does an OB permit last?

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## JB1

> How long does an OB permit last?

  I just checked mine.. 
'This certificate is valid for one year from the date of issue to obtain a Building Permit relating to the address and building work listed. If a Building Permit has been obtained, the certificate will expire on the day that the Building Permit lapses.' 
Let me know what process is required to extend a OB permit. 
I got mine in May 2017. Got the building permit in Dec 17. 
Works must start by Dec 18 and be completed by Dec 19. 
If all things go well, I'll be finished by Dec this year.  
Having dealt with Knox Council, Monash Council isn't no better or worst overall. However they seem to be much slower. 
I've lodged secondary consent with Monash Council a few weeks ago ($307 thank you very much) to remove 2 windows on the ground floor. Simple, but it's taking ages. 
The building surveyor picked up the reduced number of windows, I wasn't going to tell him to avoid the time and cost  :Smilie:

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## Ghoti

> I've lodged secondary consent with Monash Council a few weeks ago ($307 thank you very much) to remove 2 windows on the ground floor. Simple, but it's taking ages.

  If it helps, I applied for mine in December 2017, but they can't be issued until after the planning issue has been issued.  Given 2 of the 3 I had to apply for are covered by Town Planning (Height of wall on boundary and reduced set-back) seems like a money grab to me.   
Checked VCAT list today, and so far the neighbour has not lodged an objection.  Only 3 weeks to go.

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## Ghoti

> I just checked mine.. 
> Let me know what process is required to extend a OB permit.

  Spoke to VBA today.  I have to wait for my current Certificate to lapse, then apply for a new one.  Because I have not had a building permit issued for the address the 5 year exclusion does not come into effect.  I loved how she finished with "that's why we advise owner Builders not to apply until they have their building permit".  Yet I had to lodge my OB Certificate with the permit application.  Oh well <sigh>

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## JB1

> Spoke to VBA today.  I have to wait for my current Certificate to lapse, then apply for a new one.  Because I have not had a building permit issued for the address the 5 year exclusion does not come into effect.  I loved how she finished with "that's why we advise owner Builders not to apply until they have their building permit".  Yet I had to lodge my OB Certificate with the permit application.  Oh well <sigh>

  Yup, OB Permit is the first thing the Building Surveyors ask for.  
Lodge a new one.. I'm assuming at full costs and all the paperwork/online requirements again.

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## Ghoti

> Yup, OB Permit is the first thing the Building Surveyors ask for.  
> Lodge a new one.. I'm assuming at full costs and all the paperwork/online requirements again.

  Yep, full costs, all paperwork and full processing time.  And I can't reapply until my current certificate has expired.

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## Ghoti

Today I witnessed two minor miracles...
1) VBA turned around my Owner Builder re-registration in 5 business days!  
2)  Monash issued my planning permit! 
Now to get Monash to issue the report & consents, get the neighbour to respond to the protection works notice and get the Building Surveyor to accept construction details calculated by computer, rather than a Structural Engineer.  Then I should get a building permit and finally be able to start. 
I expect the neighbour will object to the protection works as he won't want a temporary fence on his property while we construct the garage wall.  Its the blind side of his house, but he's not been accommodating thus far so I see no reason for that to change.  Hopefully the Building Surveyor will apply a common sense ruling. 
Though common sense has not been the Surveyor's strong point thus far.  The construction drawings have been produced by a registered Building Designer using a commercial drafting package that does all the calcs to ensure framing meets Australian Standards.  A couple of builders have checked the plans and say the bracing, lintel specs etc are exactly what the Structural Engineer would supply, so hopefully the Building Surveyor will concur. 
Feeling confident tonight - started collecting quotes for construction insurance.  I'll also need to chase "Protection Works Insurance" to protect the neighbour against any damage the temporary fence and  300mm x 400mm garage footing may do.

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## JB1

I'd say a set of plans from an engineer will be required.  
Engineer will also supply a set of computations that the BS will require. 
====

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## pharmaboy2

10 years ago with a council inspector I got away with timber sizes spec from computer printout, I wouldn’t be expecting it now though.    
Such a a shame though for structural engineers who are now doing really very menial work with so much simple span table stuff that the builder would previously have done. 
i think I spent something like $50k on admin type stuff for our renovation before we lifted a crowbar, and people wonder why building is costing so much .....

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## Ghoti

> 10 years ago with a council inspector I got away with timber sizes spec from computer printout, I wouldnt be expecting it now though.    
> Such a a shame though for structural engineers who are now doing really very menial work with so much simple span table stuff that the builder would previously have done. 
> i think I spent something like $50k on admin type stuff for our renovation before we lifted a crowbar, and people wonder why building is costing so much .....

  Makes you wonder why they have Australian Standards if they are ignored in favour of independent designs.  Just more ass covering it seems. 
Cant help but think of a local drive in theatre.  Built in 1930s, but in the noughties they had to get an engineer to certify the design could cope with wind loadings - standing for 70 years wasn't good enough (and no...it wasn't a maintenance issue).

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## bonazoo

good to see you pass the hard part,
neighbour is always the hard part every times you want them sign agreement  :Frown: 
in my case I have to pay for the new fence to make them agreed to sign, 
which similar to you I got the garage in the fence

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## Ghoti

> good to see you pass the hard part,
> neighbour is always the hard part every times you want them sign agreement 
> in my case I have to pay for the new fence to make them agreed to sign, 
> which similar to you I got the garage in the fence

  No, they have not agreed as such.  Rather they balked at paying $850 to lodge an appeal with VCAT.  At least I know they aren't too strongly opposed.  On the plus side though I have now received my Town Planning (amended) permit, and Council consents. 
I have issued the Form 7 Protection Works notice via registered mail and its been waiting since Monday for them to collect.  I'm told that the clock starts ticking the day after they are notified, so they have until 23rd October to respond - hopefully they accept as challenging the protection works would mean further delays.     
In the meantime if I can get the Building Surveyor over the line on not needing an Engineer to confirm the draftsperson has correctly read the span tables I might just be in danger of having a building permit by the end of the month!!  :Biggrin:

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## intertd6

> 10 years ago with a council inspector I got away with timber sizes spec from computer printout, I wouldnt be expecting it now though.    
> Such a a shame though for structural engineers who are now doing really very menial work with so much simple span table stuff that the builder would previously have done. 
> i think I spent something like $50k on admin type stuff for our renovation before we lifted a crowbar, and people wonder why building is costing so much .....

  as long as the computer print out has a relevant engineering certification that it complies with the standards required by the NCC it is compliant, the trick is knowing when an engineers certification is absolutely needed & unavoidable.
inter

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## Ghoti

Well, a positive update. 
After reviewing the specs and certifications of the drafting package the Building Surveyor agreed that an Engineering sign-off was not needed!  Following a little to-ing and fro-ing with the neighbour regarding protection works, I finally have a building permit.  Now the "fun" begins!!

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## bonazoo

Nice, I think you may start next year because lot of tradie is on Holiday mode and rush hour but it would not hurt to get the quotes. 
I am up to frames stage. if anything you need please let me know

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## Ghoti

> Nice, I think you may start next year because lot of tradie is on Holiday mode and rush hour but it would not hurt to get the quotes. 
> I am up to frames stage. if anything you need please let me know

  Thanks  :2thumbsup:

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## Ghoti

Well...after what seems to have been an eternity the Chippy came today to do set out ahead of stump holes being dug on Tuesday. 
Houston...we have liftoff! 
(and now my 1001 questions will begin!)

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## Ghoti

Just felt the desire to provide a bit of an update.   
Progress is slower than I would have liked - which is to be expected I guess.   Had 36 stump holes to dig, on hole #5 I found the sewer didn't follow the original plan.  So delay while a plumber came and did his stuff, and then a wait for the drainage authority to OK filling in the new trench.  Then a week's delay with the building inspector while we argued about whether the clay was orange enough.   
Also gotta wonder about some DIYers.  We are removing an old tin shed and the concrete it sat on.  Who would have guessed it was 300mm thick...for a 3m x 3m tin shed!  I guess I should be grateful it had no reo in it. 
No doubt more surprises to come.  Subfloor inspection next week.  I hope the Kordon Ant Caps are orange enough for the inspector!

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