# Forum More Stuff Debate & Technical Discussion  trade licencing

## sol381

its the system mate for allowing guys with this poor level of workmanship and skill to get a licence in the first place..to get a licence these days is so simple any idiot who can hold a hammer can get a carpenters licence.. no more 4 year apprenticeships.im learning this first hand with my 55yo apprentice..

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## METRIX

> any idiot who can hold a hammer can get a carpenters licence.. no more 4 year apprenticeships.im learning this first hand with my 55yo apprentice..

  Is he an idiot as well ?

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## sol381

Hes no rocket surgeon but he has some brain matter i think...cant wait to see the work quality of tradies in 10 - 15 years time..BUT judging by the work on the deck in this post maybe nothing will change..

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## ringtail

55 ! I thought I was a late starter at 35  :Tongue:

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## Marc

The license for a tradesman is a legal requirement and does not mean much in relation to quality of work. it is not like license = professionalism.
It should in theory but it does not and anyone that is active in the building industry knows this to be so unfortunately. I hired shonky plumbers, electricians, brickies and carpenters galore. All dutifully licensed and all well over 40. And I hired others who were extremely good at their job. All had a license. The difference is in the person not the license. 
 I had carpenters come to do some work for me that I did not want to do and asked me for "the phone number of person that built this, see if I can get him to come to work for me" 
And I don't have a license.

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## Bigboboz

> The license for a tradesman is a legal requirement and does not mean much in relation to quality of work.

  This comes up a lot by people stating always make sure you use licensed tradesman but it seems it's only a tick box for insurance.  Is that it? You can't even check that they're appropriately insured can you? 
I'm sure licensed is better than unlicensed but as you say it's not a credential...

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## ringtail

The contractor is meant to be able to provide the policy, policy number and or the certificate of insurance for the customer to look at and even contact the insurer to double check what is covered etc....this is the same for contractors working for builders

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## intertd6

> its the system mate for allowing guys with this poor level of workmanship and skill to get a licence in the first place..to get a licence these days is so simple any idiot who can hold a hammer can get a carpenters licence.. no more 4 year apprenticeships.im learning this first hand with my 55yo apprentice..

  it comes down to people who are too stingy to employ someone independent & suitably experienced to oversee the work, it may cost a few thousand $, but in cases like this the contract would have been terminated very early & all the waste & headaches minimised.
inter

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## intertd6

> This comes up a lot by people stating always make sure you use licensed tradesman but it seems it's only a tick box for insurance.  Is that it? You can't even check that they're appropriately insured can you? 
> I'm sure licensed is better than unlicensed but as you say it's not a credential...

  insurance & licensing is only a legal requirement for contractors & builders, there is nothing stopping a tradesman working for wages being employed directly by the owner.
inter

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## ringtail

> insurance & licensing is only a legal requirement for contractors & builders, there is nothing stopping a tradesman working for wages being employed directly by the owner.
> inter

  well that's not true at all in Qld. If you don't have a licence you can only do work up to the value of $3300 including gst. If working direct to the public. It used to be $1100 incl gst. One is basically classed as a handyman if one doesn't have a licence. One can work for a builder or other licenced individuals though. So I can employ qualified but unlicenced carpenters but they can only do work for the public as a handyman regardless of their trade qualification.

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## sol381

not much we can do about it tho.. you can get a licence because you can build a house frame or plumb a bathroom in or plaster a wall or whatever.. its never taken into account whether you can do it well, just whether you can do it.. quality of work is not a consideration, just make sit hard for homeowners.. one of the guys here said they work through word of mouth.. thats how ive done it for ages..not always easy to find but it is getting harder to find good tradies these days..

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## Marc

It was always 'hard' to find good tradesman 30 years ago just like today, it is a simple fact of life. The percentage of people who take pride in their work remains more or less stable. Immigration sometimes provides an influx of new trades that must excel for simple survival reasons so you get the italian brickies and the vietnamese tilers for example. 
The apprenticeship and licensing system attempts to bring in a level of reliability. If he is licensed it means he learned the trade in a formal way so I can trust he will do a good job.
We all know this does not necessarily work so it comes down to the person and not the license.
Of course I don't advocate to abolish licensing and apprenticeship, only making an observation that the license is not a guarantee of good work as it is blatantly obvious in the beginning of this thread. 
A good job comes from a good person who is interested in building something he can be proud of. A lousy character will make a lousy job, license or no license.

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## sol381

i agree.. a person needs to take pride in their work..i try and build as if im doing the job for myself ..most are in for the quick buck and quality gets given a low priority..,its not that hard to do a good job quickly if you know what youre doing..not everyone has the same skill level tho so quality can vary..im just a bit concerned about how the government wants to fast track apprentices as there is a trade shortage..[i was talking to a guy from BIGA training and he failed on apprentice.. got a call from someone in government.."YOU MUST PASS HIM".. he said my reputation is on the line and the guy isnt up to scratch..fell on deaf ears.. you simply cannot fail..I hope medical school doesnt work this way..

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## ringtail

Yep. I noticed the downward slide as soon as competency based training was introduced in the early 90's. I was one of the first group of motor mechanic apprentices put through the new system and it was a joke. The mandate to all TAFE staff was failing students is simply not an option. Do an exam, fail, resit, fail, resit only the wrong questions,fail, resit with teacher = competent. Total Joke. Same with every other trade these days. I went through 3 years of TAFE with nothing lower than 96% which used to be high distinctions or honours under the old system but the morons that can't read or write and fail every single subject get the same level of competency. I did my carpentry theory through bluedog training online and while I found it easy the teachers (all builders) certainly grilled one well on everything before passing. They then speak to ones boss to see if the student can really perform the task they are asking to be passed on. Then the teacher comes to site for an evaluation. And this happened for every subject except a few of the crap ones like materials handling etc...

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## sol381

Yeah competency based they call it..who determines if someone is competent..all they need to do is fill out a book detailing how to hang a door or install soffits..the guy from BIGA comes to site every month or so and i have to sign my apprentices book in front of him..Takes ages because i read every word..last week i had to sign off on a few things then he said just one more.. whats this I said.. trusses.. my guy has never done trusses.. No way im signing that and dont pull that bullS%&t on me again..The guy from biga said its ok, youre choice. Its my reputation if my guys gets his licence, works for someone else, and cant hammer a nail in straight..Makes me look like an idiot.. 
Not sure how you went RT but after he goes through all the course modules and gets his carpentry certificate, he said he just has to do a 2 day course and he can apply for his licence through qbcc..I just feel you need 4 years to learn everything, and sometimes thats not enough time..

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## ringtail

I had heaps of experience in building before doing my carpentry trade so I smashed it 2 years. I took another year working with other builders to get references, did my business management course and got my licence no worries. Of course, there are heaps of guys out there that rorted the system and got all sorts of tickets purely based on references from equally dodgy people. I know of 5 or 6 site supervisors that can't hold a hammer. They were lackies on site yet the various tradesmen on site signed letters that gave them "experience". Then there is the rort of RPL. If done properly with proper assessment it's ok but that rarely happens. Money exchanges hands for qualifications.

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## intertd6

> well that's not true at all in Qld. If you don't have a licence you can only do work up to the value of $3300 including gst. If working direct to the public. It used to be $1100 incl gst. One is basically classed as a handyman if one doesn't have a licence. One can work for a builder or other licenced individuals though. So I can employ qualified but unlicenced carpenters but they can only do work for the public as a handyman regardless of their trade qualification.

  you are correct with what you have said, but you missed what I said, an owner can become an employer of a carpenter, builder, plumber, electrician, tiler or what ever & pay them wages & they don't have to be licensed. That way an owner has direct control of what their employees do within the guidelines of the relevant employment act, the owners limitations of what work they can do are controlled by the definition of their owner builders license or not at all if it's exempt like repairs & maintenance on their own buildings. Not every tradesman is a contractor & some are on wages working under the builders licences of the main contractor.
inter

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## PlatypusGardens

Is it just me or do all these threads go in the same circle?   
Anyway, back on topic, dreadful workmanship and the guy who did it should be tarred and feathered.    :Rolleyes:

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## OBBob

> Is it just me or do all these threads go in the same circle?   
> Anyway, back on topic, dreadful workmanship and the guy who did it should be tarred and feathered.

  Are you suggesting there should be a "too far off topic" thread?   :Biggrin:

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## PlatypusGardens

> Are you suggesting there should be a "too far off topic" thread?

  
Genitals

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## Marc

I posted a picture of a tarred and feathered person ... gone in the other dimension it seems ... do you want me to post a picture of genitals? I suppose I can post a picture of Cricket genitals ...  :Smilie:

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## OBBob

I think he's referring Ringtail... and no we don't need a picture.

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## plum

> you are correct with what you have said, but you missed what I said, an owner can become an employer of a carpenter, builder, plumber, electrician, tiler or what ever & pay them wages & they don't have to be licensed. That way an owner has direct control of what their employees do within the guidelines of the relevant employment act, the owners limitations of what work they can do are controlled by the definition of their owner builders license or not at all if it's exempt like repairs & maintenance on their own buildings. Not every tradesman is a contractor & some are on wages working under the builders licences of the main contractor.
> inter

  I think you're talking crap, in fact I  think you're talking bollocks. You may be able to employ a plumber on wages to do your work, but they have to be registered an licensed to issue  a compliance certificate in Victoria.

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## intertd6

> I think you're talking crap, in fact I  think you're talking bollocks. You may be able to employ a plumber on wages to do your work, but they have to be registered an licensed to issue  a compliance certificate in Victoria.

  it isn't crap & it doesn't take must thought to see that it's true, what happens when an apprentice finishes their trade? What happens is they normally don't go straight out & get licensed then go out contracting with no business or trade experience, they work for wages under licenced tradespeople, government or mining operations or many other different options where licensing isn't a requirement but a trade qualification is, 
 This thread is about poor quality work & the options of how to get a better quality of product.

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## plum

> it isn't crap & it doesn't take must thought to see that it's true, what happens when an apprentice finishes their trade? What happens is they normally don't go straight out & get licensed then go out contracting with no business or trade experience, they work for wages under licenced tradespeople, government or mining operations or many other different options where licensing isn't a requirement but a trade qualification is, 
>  This thread is about poor quality work & the options of how to get a better quality of product.

  My point is in Vic. when you finish your apprenticeship, you then pay to be registered. Licensed is a separate issue. A non-licensed person cannot employ a registered plumber and be compliant, someone must be licensed, either the employee or employer.

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## intertd6

> My point is in Vic. when you finish your apprenticeship, you then pay to be registered. Licensed is a separate issue. A non-licensed person cannot employ a registered plumber and be compliant, someone must be licensed, either the employee or employer.

  that could be the case in VIC but other states & organisations differ, for instance commercial builders & the majority of contractors in NSW that build everything but class 1 & 10 don't even have to have a licenses yet employ unlicensed & licenced trades by the thousands, the commonwealth govt & dept of defence build Australia & world wide & have their own rules which are exempt from every state licence rule there is, mining & maritime industries have their own systems of certification as well, some councils only require a licenced plumber to certify (just to name a few) hot water tempering valves or similar, septic sewer systems & connection to sewer mains, then the bulk remainder has to be unspecifically done to comply with AS3500. I like the direct employment of trades, there is better quality through better control, it seems daunting or unimaginable to some but it's the proven formula for quality which the public has moved away from because of the liability risks.
inter

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## intertd6

Half the problem with the training of the trades is the antiquated curriculum, the present one doesn't cater for the marketplace which ultimately wants contractors only, they are put out there with "0" business skills. probably the most important deficiency of their training is for them to be trained to record how long it takes to perform everything they do, so when they are out trying to make a living they can accurately price their time to do jobs, then they shouldn't have to take shortcuts to avoid going bankrupt by taking uneducated guesses.
inter

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