# Forum Home Renovation Bathrooms  Yellow Tongue Particle Board Okay For Shower & Bathroom?

## mrmilkman

I'm currently renoing a bathroom and have had to rip up the floor where the new shower will go and also a few sections elsewhere in the bathroom. I'm trying to figure out what to replace the floor with. I was thinking to use the yellow tongue particle board that Bunnings has, then tile underlay. For the shower area would the yellow tongue be okay with hardie wet area cement board on top and then water proofing membrane before tiling? 
Thanks

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## OBBob

Your question may reignite a long running debate... but the common answer is Scyon.

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## Watters

> Your question may reignite a long running debate..

  No kidding! Shuddered when I saw this new thread.   

> but the common answer is Scyon.

  Or 15mm compressed fibre cement (CFC). 19mm Scyon Secura Interior is an aerated cement product so it is lighter than CFC but is also more expensive than CFC. Follow the installation instructions (e.g. BGC if CFC or James Hardie if Scyon). 
Assuming that you have a wood based flooring environment (bearers, joists etc), the general view on this forum is that all existing flooring in the bathroom should be removed (you didn't say it but I presume you already have yellow tongue chipboard as your bathroom flooring? If so, my commiserations) and replace the lot with either compressed fibre cement or Scyon Secura Interior.  Scyonâ„¢ Securaâ„¢ interior flooring | James Hardie 
Don't do yellow tongue chipboard with tile underlay. While it can be done it is a bad idea, even more so in your case because you are installing from new. I have used tile underlay on existing yellow tongue chipboard in a bathroom and, while I got a result, I would never do things that way ever again. Tile underlay has sealer in it and you stick it down with stud adhesive but you also bang in a lot of nails so the tile underlay is not really water tight. So you have to pay a lot more attention to waterproofing above it etc as you never, never want any water to get down to the tile underlay and, by implication, to the yellow tongue chipboard below it via the special (barbed) nails now in the yellow tongue chipboard.

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## ringtail

> I'm currently renoing a bathroom and have had to rip up the floor where the new shower will go and also a few sections elsewhere in the bathroom. I'm trying to figure out what to replace the floor with. I was thinking to use the yellow tongue particle board that Bunnings has, then tile underlay. For the shower area would the yellow tongue be okay with hardie wet area cement board on top and then water proofing membrane before tiling? 
> Thanks

  
Despite the other thread and despite people singing the praises of sycon and other such materials, YT with tile underlay (compressed fibre cement sheet) has been used forever and will continue to be used forever. Nothing wrong with the system provided you use a professional waterproofing company that knows what they are doing. After all, the waterproofing is all that matters ultimately. Heads will explode now but just ignore it.  :Biggrin:

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## sol381

I agree.. if the product underneath ends up getting wet and damaged then the waterproof has failed. I always use yt and 6mm tile underlay. never had a problem.

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## OBBob

... and I pulled out a bathroom recently that had been there for 20 or so years, had no waterproofing and the chipboard and cement sheet was fine.  
He he... who wants to bet on the quantity of posts this thread will get?   :Tongue:

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## Watters

> Nothing wrong with the system provided you use a professional waterproofing company that knows what they are doing. After all, the waterproofing is all that matters ultimately. Heads will explode now but just ignore it.

  Oh really? What if, for example, the renovator then bonds with a type of bonding agent that causes a rigid bond and you as the home owner don't know that is what was done? Now, if the screed shrinks while curing (e.g. 3:1 cement/sand, additives etc) then the waterproofing underneath the screed will be stressed and can tear which is not the fault of the waterproofer (whoever that might be). Ditto if the screed cracks due to movement. Now there is a potential path for water to reach the tile underlay and the YT below it. It could take a couple of years for you to know there is a problem... By then the renovator etc are long gone. 
Sure you can plan for such things but it requires a lot of research and more effort. I am a convert to CFC/Scyon and would never again work with tile underlay on YT in a bathroom situation.   

> He he... who wants to bet on the quantity of posts this thread will get?

  Yeah, YT is a trip wire on the forum for sure... 
My view (now) is why use tile underlay on YT when you can use better materials such as CFC or Scyon? The only reason I can think of is to save the hassle of putting in more supports for the CFC or Scyon. In my case I did it because the YT was existing and was in good shape (except for the shower, but that's another story).

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## sol381

what if, what if,, if water is seeping through the waterproofing onto your floor then you have a problem no matter what you use. having scyon might buy you some time but you will still need to rip up the tiles and redo it. Scyon, yt whatever you use is not meant to contain the water, the waterproofing is, so its really irrelevant what is used.

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## phild01

Yes, you can use YT on the provisio that the wall and floor framing (no deflection), has no chance of moving about with any ground movement and the waterproofing is properly done.  Even so, my choice would be a compressed material and I wouldn't even bother with tile underlay on YT in a small bathroom.

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## Watters

> what if, what if,, if water is seeping through the waterproofing onto your floor then you have a problem no matter what you use. having scyon might buy you some time but you will still need to rip up the tiles and redo it. Scyon, yt whatever you use is not meant to contain the water, the waterproofing is, so its really irrelevant what is used.

  Agree, and when you waterproof below the screed, waterproof above the screed and waterproof the screed itself you have extra insurance...but doing all that adds time e.g. time waiting for the screed to fully dry etc.

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## Watters

> Yes, you can use YT on the provisio that the wall and floor framing (no deflection), has no chance of moving about with any ground movement and the waterproofing is properly done.  Even so, my choice would be a compressed material and I wouldn't even bother with tile underlay on YT in a small bathroom.

  In WA they have the right idea: Double brick wall with cavity on slab and trench footings on fully compacted and suitably prepared gound! I used to think it was overkill, not anymore. Also makes life more difficult for termites as well (only wood is architraves and in the roof)...

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## Ourbuild

Sycon, just as easy to install as yellow tounge, if not easier when you factor in the extra sheeting you need to install over the top of it.  
Kind Regards 
James Mason

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## mrmilkman

Currently the bathroom floor comprises of hardwood tongue in groove flooring, with suprisingly little rot (mainly along the edges of where the old shower/bath was). I've removed boards to get to plumbing, which have splintered on removal so need replacing.  
I think I might come in at a compromise and use CFC for the shower floor and then a bit of the yellow tongue in the middle of the floor where the boards were pulled up. As I said, the hardwood is still in good condition so I'll leave it be and use tile underlay. 
Thanks for the replies and sorry for triggering people! lol  :Wink:

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## phild01

Scyon or Durafloor are easy products to work with, unlike compressed cement sheet.
  Urge you to go that way and work to a platform rather than a piecemeal floor, will be easier!

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## OBBob

> Scyon or Durafloor are easy products to work with, unlike compressed cement sheet.
>   Urge you to go that way and work to a platform rather than a piecemeal floor, will be easier!

  Yep, don't underestimate how heavy full cement sheet us and a floor made of bits and pieces to save a few bucks is going to end in tears.

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## METRIX

> In WA they have the right idea: Double brick wall with cavity on slab and trench footings on fully compacted and suitably prepared gound! I used to think it was overkill, not anymore. Also makes life more difficult for termites as well (only wood is architraves and in the roof)...

  You obviously haven't seen all the dodgy WA builds on here, where there are no footings just a bit of sand and evreyting is thrown straight onto that  :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> Currently the bathroom floor comprises of hardwood tongue in groove flooring, with suprisingly little rot (mainly along the edges of where the old shower/bath was). I've removed boards to get to plumbing, which have splintered on removal so need replacing.  
> I think I might come in at a compromise and use CFC for the shower floor and then a bit of the yellow tongue in the middle of the floor where the boards were pulled up. As I said, the hardwood is still in good condition so I'll leave it be and use tile underlay. 
> Thanks for the replies and sorry for triggering people! lol

  If you really want to go for the timber floor / tile underlay option use cypress T&G with Tile underlay, at least if there is an issue the flooring wont explode like YT does, but overall for not a lot more cost, something like Scyon is a better solution as it goes down quicker, provides a nice solid base, is easy to work with and better long term than any timber option.

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## SlowMick

much easier to start again.
we have CFC.  it is heavy.  get the sheets delivered, higher a wet saw from bunning to cut it and get a mate to help you shift it.  
scion looks easier as bunnies sell it and it is in smaller pieces - ligher easier to move.  going for either of these saves you a bit of height when you get to the bathroom door and you don't have all those nail wanting to come up through the membrane.  Gyprock Trade centres have the Megapoxy to glue the CFC together with. The instructions for installing can be easily downloaded.  Good luck with your project.  make sure you post pictures.  i like pictures.

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## METRIX

As much as CFC is a great product, it's a thing of the past with the newer lighter alternatives, that perform the same job. 
A builder I once worked for used to make us drag 2400 x 1200 sheets up to the 2nd floor additions we were doing over the gutters from the ground, it was a pita to work with. a 2700 x 600 sheet of Scyon can fairly easily be manhandled by one person. 
No special equipment to cut it, either grinder or diamond blade in saw, much easier product to work with, plus it has T&G to join the sheets no special glues required.

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## Watters

> and you don't have all those nail wanting to come up through the membrane.

  I presume that you are referring to the underlay nails that you use with tile underlay? I'm not going to defend tile underlay but it is unlikely that properly nailed underlay nails will ever work their way up. The combination of stud adhesive and the barbs on the underlay nails (using the proper underlay nails...) are the reason for that. I was curious about this myself and had an underlay nail in a bit of waste cutout for the puddle flange and, as an exercise, tried removing it. It took a "lot" of effort to do so. In fact I had to dig around the underlay nail before it could be worked loose. Also, the screed would present an opposing force as well, assuming there is a screed that is....   

> You obviously haven't seen all the dodgy WA builds  on here, where there are no footings just a bit of sand and evreyting  is thrown straight onto that

  Er, sorry no I haven't. This is what we did in our last house in WA (sigh, so good and solid as). Mind you, neighbours  fifty metres away felt it when the heavy duty plate compactor did its thing... Just as well we had friendly neighbours.

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## ringtail

> what if, what if,, if water is seeping through the waterproofing onto your floor then you have a problem no matter what you use. having scyon might buy you some time but you will still need to rip up the tiles and redo it. Scyon, yt whatever you use is not meant to contain the water, the waterproofing is, so its really irrelevant what is used.

  x 2

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## Watters

> ... He he... who wants to bet on the quantity of posts this thread will get?

  Over 20 posts so far...

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## ringtail

> Oh really? What if, for example, the renovator then bonds with a type of bonding agent that causes a rigid bond and you as the home owner don't know that is what was done? Now, if the screed shrinks while curing (e.g. 3:1 cement/sand, additives etc) then the waterproofing underneath the screed will be stressed and can tear which is not the fault of the waterproofer (whoever that might be). Ditto if the screed cracks due to movement. Now there is a potential path for water to reach the tile underlay and the YT below it. It could take a couple of years for you to know there is a problem... By then the renovator etc are long gone.
> ).

  Another reason that "renovators" should keep their grubby little paws out of other people's business and leave it to the pros. Wetseal Australia has a 10 year written warranty. Joe sixpack the bathroom renovator does not. Say no more. Either way, there is no reason why a tray can't be used in 99% of showers and tiles on the shower floor are so 80's man. Plenty of fully sealed seamless options out there that most choose to ignore.

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## OBBob

> Over 20 posts so far and counting...

  Yep, I always giggle when the OP courteously says 'thank you, I have my answer' and expects that to be the conclusion.   :Biggrin:

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## phild01

> tiles on the shower floor are so 80's man.

   '80's  :Confused:  
...what else resists grubby scratching as so well as tiles do!

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## ringtail

> '80's  
> ...what else resists grubby scratching as so well as tiles do!

  full SS welded cubicle  :Biggrin:

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## Watters

> Plenty of fully sealed seamless options out there that most choose to ignore.

  Okay, you have got me curious. Can you please provide examples of the fully sealed seamless options you mentioned? Is there such an option for a three wall shower?

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## METRIX

> Another reason that "renovators" should keep their grubby little paws out of other people's business and leave it to the pros. Wetseal Australia has a 10 year written warranty. Joe sixpack the bathroom renovator does not. Say no more. .

   :2thumbsup:

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## METRIX

> I presume that you are referring to the underlay nails that you use with tile underlay? I'm not going to defend tile underlay but it is unlikely that properly nailed underlay nails will ever work their way up. The combination of stud adhesive and the barbs on the underlay nails (using the proper underlay nails...) are the reason for that. I was curious about this myself and had an underlay nail in a bit of waste cutout for the puddle flange and, as an exercise, tried removing it. It took a "lot" of effort to do so. In fact I had to dig around the underlay nail before it could be worked loose. Also, the screed would present an opposing force as well, assuming there is a screed that is....   
> Er, sorry no I haven't. This is what we did in our last house in WA (sigh, so good and solid as). Mind you, neighbours  fifty metres away felt it when the heavy duty plate compactor did its thing... Just as well we had friendly neighbours.

  
Yep standard practice everywhere for slab on ground construction, look at past posts most WA stuff is seriously just laid on sand.

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## ringtail

> Okay, you have got me curious. Can you please provide examples of the fully sealed seamless options you mentioned? Is there such an option for a three wall shower?

  Mate, just look to the commercial world for real solutions. Think hospitals and prisons. Think vinyl with welded seams,  full rubber wet rooms, full metal enclosures, seamless epoxy etc.... Plenty there that is far superior to tiled floors, just have a google.

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## PlatypusGardens

> full rubber wet rooms

  Sounds kinky.
Tell me more  :Biggrin:

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## NZC

> Yep standard practice everywhere for slab on ground construction, look at past posts most WA stuff is seriously just laid on sand.

  All WA stuff is built on sand, it crap. To make a new subdivision they just build it up about 3-4m with sand, roll it for a few months and dig your pointless stripfooting and away you go.

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## ringtail

> Sounds kinky.
> Tell me more

   :Licklips:   :Licklips:

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## Watters

> All WA stuff is built on sand, it crap. To make a new   subdivision they just build it up about 3-4m with sand, roll it for a   few months and dig your pointless stripfooting and away you go.

  Dubai, a desert, is also built on sand and yet they managed to build the  Burj  Khalifa skyscraper there without it sinking, leaning over etc:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burj_Khalifa 
Much of WA, Perth in particular, is one big sand pit with patches of   limestone in some areas. So you are mostly either building on sand or   limestone over there regardless. So all buildings over there (except those on limestone or rock) are essentially rafts floating on sand, compacted sand in the case of residential properties built as one offs. 
Fully compacted sand versus reactive clay? At least sand drains straight   through which is probably why WA requires all storm water to be   totally contained on a property via soak wells, instead of being directed to the   main road or to public stormwater drainage that follows the main road. 
A compacted strip footing:     

> Mate, just look to the commercial world for real    solutions. Think hospitals and prisons. Think vinyl with welded  seams,    full rubber wet rooms, full metal enclosures, seamless epoxy  etc....   Plenty there that is far superior to tiled floors, just have a    google.

  Thanks. Interesting avenue to research. Still, tiles do have their place as well  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Uncle Bob

I'd take sand over clay any day of the week

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## intertd6

> I'm currently renoing a bathroom and have had to rip up the floor where the new shower will go and also a few sections elsewhere in the bathroom. I'm trying to figure out what to replace the floor with. I was thinking to use the yellow tongue particle board that Bunnings has, then tile underlay. For the shower area would the yellow tongue be okay with hardie wet area cement board on top and then water proofing membrane before tiling? 
> Thanks

  who uses cement sheet tile underlay on top of YT in a wet area when it is isn't required?
inter

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## PlatypusGardens

> tiles do have their place as well

  
Timeless look

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## OBBob

> Timeless look

  Bath should be salmon colour...

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## Watters

> Timeless look

  I was actually more interested in that bath having removable panels (my new bath will have niches in the side of the bath frame...). Here's some real bathroom tiling porn for inspiration...particularly like the hidden storage...I'll probably do that as well...

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## PlatypusGardens

> Yup. Here's some real bathroom tiling porn...

  Hmm...I actually quite like this one...     

>

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## phild01

> Hmm...I actually quite like this one...

  I like a glassed in shower because it stops the draught as you shower, and is warmer in there.

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## Watters

> and you'll expect to grow stuff on it at some point...also there seems to be a pathogical aversion to leaving ANY trees in a new subdivision..

  Think we were talking about YT, CFC, Scyon and tiling. So, not sure what you were trying to say but I will say this; if you know how to grow "anything" in your garden in WA and it survives you are truly a genius. We gave up trying and eventually created a paved courtyard...now we are well and truly off topic... 
As for air conditioning, the arab world had an answer for that long ago:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windcatcher 
Some modern houses in Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc still have these.

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## phild01

off topic house sardine posts moved to: http://www.renovateforum.com/f188/ho...queeze-121016/

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