# Forum Home Renovation Home Theatres  no visible joins with honeycomb panels

## zoranb

Im sorry if i made a mistage and posted here but i had no clue where my topik would fit...  :Cry:  
anyway, here is my issue, im trying to make a tv stand like this http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3752/42tvstand.jpg
using honey comb panels, but im stuck in the joining process as i have no idea how to make the panel joins invisible, so that no screws n stuff are to be seen as they are joined

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## Moondog55

You cannot do it, that unit is  ( I am sure ) laminated after making up, 
Each honeycomb section needs a solid insert to bond against; just like the edge of a door

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## zoranb

> You cannot do it, that unit is  ( I am sure ) laminated after making up,

  and Laminated... is?   

> Each honeycomb section needs a solid insert to bond against; just like the edge of a door

  Why cant it be done with honeycomb panels? these are the ones i want to get ÎÎºÏÎ¯ÏÎ±Ï: EVROPANEL

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## Moondog55

Veneer 
What are you going to glue or screw into? is each sheet of that edge finished? 
Most finish is applied after the box is built, some people use straight wood veneer others paper backed veneer others use plywood

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## SilentButDeadly

That TV stand is probably made with knock down fittings (metal pin one side, screw cam on the other)....much like many IKEA products.  I've a very ugly coffee table just like it.....

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## zoranb

guys is there a video "how to" on this matter that can help me understand more, english isnt my native language so i dont understand most of the terminilogy you are using, sorry  :Blush7:

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## Master Splinter

All about honeycomb panel connectors.  Häfele - Tab A Honeycomb

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## zoranb

Thanx i had already seen this in my look for a solution, unfortunately this "correct" way of handling/working with honeycomb panels isn't an option for me because i cannot make holes for the appropriate connectors.
So im trying to find a different way in making those joinings, maybe what im looking for is to make joins like ones made in wooden materials, do you think i can do this?

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## zoranb

> That TV stand is probably made with knock down fittings (metal pin one side, screw cam on the other)....much like many IKEA products.  I've a very ugly coffee table just like it.....

  isnt there any other solution for making those joinings? maybe a way not so "professional"?

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## Master Splinter

Knock down fittings aren't generally considered 'professional' woodworking joins.  They are an unskilled labour approach. 
The only way to do it with a minimal tool/skill set is: 
Buy panel, cut to size. 
Remove honeycomb insert for (say) 40mm on edges to be joined, scrape panel to remove any trace of glue where the honeycomb was. (glue doesn't stick to old glue very well!) 
Glue a piece of wood (40mm by whatever the thickness of the honeycomb was) in this cleaned area.   
You now have a solid edge that can be treated as normal timber for joining purposes.  I'd suggest a dowel and glue join.  Butt joint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## zoranb

> Knock down fittings aren't generally considered 'professional' woodworking joins.  They are an unskilled labour approach. 
> The only way to do it with a minimal tool/skill set is: 
> Buy panel, cut to size. 
> Remove honeycomb insert for (say) 40mm on edges to be joined, scrape panel to remove any trace of glue where the honeycomb was. (glue doesn't stick to old glue very well!) 
> Glue a piece of wood (40mm by whatever the thickness of the honeycomb was) in this cleaned area.   
> You now have a solid edge that can be treated as normal timber for joining purposes.  I'd suggest a dowel and glue join.  Butt joint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  excellent recommendation, very helpfull answer thanx  :2thumbsup: 
a few more questions
1. which of the two butt joints would you recommend? buiscuits or dowels and why?
2. in case i choose dowels i do not own a drill stand to make the holes vertical (of course buscuits are mutch harder to make), so i must find another way to make those holes with my drill, any idea on how to do this without purchasing a drill stand?

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## r3nov8or

you do need to invest in a jig or tool to make these joins properly.  
Dowel - An example of a local Australian dowelling jig Ozzie Jigs
Biscuits - you'll need a biscuit cutter/joiner Biscuit joiner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. There are plenty of brands to choose from.

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## Master Splinter

Dowel - you can get away with hand holding the drill if you can line it up well and use the cheap centre marker things. (usually sold in a kit with dowels and a drill bit).  To use biscuits you'll need to buy a biscuit joiner or a router.

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## zoranb

> Dowel - you can get away with hand holding the drill if you can line it up well and use the cheap centre marker things. (usually sold in a kit with dowels and a drill bit).  To use biscuits you'll need to buy a biscuit joiner or a router.

  what exactly is the cheap centre marker things?  :Smilie:   and also any good idea on holding/lining up the drill vertically to make the holes?

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## Master Splinter

It's the 'Mini Dowelling Kit' on this page: http://www.haron.com.au/hardware/dowelling.html 
Some dowels, drill bit, drill stop and a centre point which lets you accurately transfer the dowel position from one surface to another. 
Using a square to make sure the drill is at 90 degrees to the surface is a fiddly exercise, but doable.  (a really good test of hand/eye coordination). 
An even easier alternative would be to glue it together then through-dowel it, as shown in the pic below. Then you just have to trim the ends off flush.  If you used a piece of aluminium as the dowel (and epoxy glue) it could even be a feature.  You could do the same with contrasting wood, too. 
But if the shelf is going to be supported at both the back and the front (ie it's not just cantilevered off the back piece) you could just glue it.  Any decent modern glue (PVA or epoxy) is going to be stronger than the wood, so as long as you eliminate the risk of the wood failing in peel you don't need the dowels.

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## zoranb

do you think that its absolutelly important to put dowels so i make the joins for my Honeycomb panels or can i just use screws File:Woodworking-joint-butt-screw.gif - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Master Splinter

If the top is supported at all four corners, just glue it.  Glue is quite strong enough to hold it together if the design is good.  
That illustration shows what is possibly the worst ever way of joining  timber - screws into end grain have about as much holding power as  nails, which isn't a lot. The screw thread acts like a chisel blade and cuts the wood fibre, and the short end grain sections just shear off leaving the screw with little holding power.  http://woodgears.ca/shop-tricks/endgrain_screw.html 
Anyway, screws would be visible fastenings, which I thought you didn't want...

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## r3nov8or

zoranb, have you got a resaonably accurate diagram of what you want to make? That may spawn some more ideas / joining options.

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## zoranb

> zoranb, have you got a resaonably accurate diagram of what you want to make? That may spawn some more ideas / joining options.

  ok this is a newer plan of the tv stand i want to make. The HComb panels are 5cm fat and width about 1.20m width the ones vertical have height 35cm. As i said before i dont have mutch tools for this, but if needed i guess i can get the most important ones  :Smilie:

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## Master Splinter

Glue.  No mechanical fasteners needed. 
If you use an epoxy, it can be used to hide any less than perfect joins as it is gap filling so it'll kill two birds with one stone. 
The challenge will be finding appropriately sized timber infill to go in the formerly honeycomb filled area- it's unlikely that you'll find off the shelf dressed timber that'll fit nicely between the top and bottom ply layers - so this will need to be machined to size, with your choice of thicknesser, router or hand plane.

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## zoranb

> Glue.  No mechanical fasteners needed. 
> If you use an epoxy, it can be used to hide any less than perfect joins as it is gap filling so it'll kill two birds with one stone. 
> The challenge will be finding appropriately sized timber infill to go in the formerly honeycomb filled area- it's unlikely that you'll find off the shelf dressed timber that'll fit nicely between the top and bottom ply layers - so this will need to be machined to size, with your choice of thicknesser, router or hand plane.

  Thanx for the help, but let me ask you
1. Isn't it right that making the joins using glued dowels (and glue on each surface perhaps) will be more firm and stable? I want it to be firm & stable because this due to the fact that its on wheels it will experience a lot of dragging around.
2. The tv stand i will make ultimately i salmost certain to be painted by white glossy lack. This means that the panels that will be used, will be ones that will be faced -on both sides- by veneers. This in order so that they can be rubbed with sandpaper and later to be painted. Having this said, do you still think that the epoxy is a good solution and is it easy for an amateur to use?
if there is a how to video on epoxy usage plz let me know!

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## Master Splinter

If the panels are 50mm thick, you've got plenty of surface area to distribute the load.  Epoxy guides here.  Videos here. 
If you are just going to paint them, you'd be better off using MDF and some dressed timber to make torsion boxes from scratch.  That way you can tailor it to what you have available.  http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=705

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## seriph1

I made a cabinet like this and using honeycomb panels .... but, I used a door I removed from a job site ..... it already had all its revealed edges trimmed and I simply made the cabinet 2040 long (or whatever it was) 
To fix the edges/ends of the box I glued Pine inserts into it and screwed countersink-head screws into them ... keyhole slots were drilled into the top and bottom sections (the long flat bits of the box) and I just pushed it all together. I believe it is still in service but I gave it away ten years ago. Came up nicely though .... maybe you could apply the same idea.

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## zoranb

> ... keyhole slots were drilled into the top and bottom sections

  what are these "keyhole slots" for? holes to place dowels?

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## seriph1

sorry I was unclear  -  I screwed the screws .... bugger it ... back soon with a drawing

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## zoranb

> sorry I was unclear  -  I screwed the screws .... bugger it ... back soon with a drawing

  thanx my friend and im sorry to be putting you to all this issue!

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## seriph1

quite hard to draw actually .... anyway I did a basic drawing  -  hope it gives some idea what I did.

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## zoranb

thanx my friend, ok so now i see what you mean about keyholes, intresting way to put it together, but i believe that this way is without doubt very apropriate if one wants to mantle/dismantle rather than making a permanent stif and tight stand.i believe in my case, the stand must be stiff and tight because it will have the ability to move around since it will be on wheels  :Wink:

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## r3nov8or

You could use that method, and when you are entirely happy with the fit, add glue and assemble it one last time.

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## zoranb

how are the keyholes made?

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