# Forum Home Renovation Decking  Nails versus Screws for deck fastening- OH NOT This Thread Again!

## jimj

Its Sunday and I am probably feeling somewhat jaded ,so my apologies for this rant. I restore(sand exterior mainly decking) timber. Over the past 2-3 weeks I have been contacted to come and discuss with 15 or so houses , how they may bring back their decking to its "former beautiful condition" as they remember it. Regardless, of what product was put down, most are in fairly poor visually pleasing but structurally sound codition. They just need to have the surface fixed up. There are many film based coatings as well as soaking coatings that can be water blasted using strippers,detergents and oxalic acid cleaners. This does, however, have its own issues like mess with old coating being flung everywhere and sticking along with the fact that it will not bring up new timber to the surface as well if you have too high of pressure you can leave the timber very furry once it dries. Thats OK if you want a deck that looks and feels like a bathmat but most of the folks I visit want it smooth,.. Besides working with glass pool fencing,perfect plants,large glass windows,white rendered walls and expensive paving tiles. You also need somewhere for the water to drain to.
Sanding will remove all of the old coatings  water or oil based regardless of what was used. It will bring new timber to the surface which is by far the best starting position when ready to apply a new coating.  Having used both methods, I can also sand a deck quicker than I can pressure clean with virtually no mess and almost no dust. 
 OK so what is bothering me? In this last 15 or so houses not one house had a stainless steel screw countersunk below the surface. Some where screwed but in the one yesterday 50% or more of the gal batten screwed into hardwood joists were still 1-2mm above the surface with the timber burrs still standing up and coated. One 3year old  house had phillip head steel screws black with rust and al were left proud of the surface. Most of the decks were nailed with gal-stainless 50mm dome headed twist nails. This can't be sanded with the nails up (or I havn't figured out the technique of anding around every nail without touching the nail over some 50-60 m2 of decking. When I am asked what is needed the only 2 suggestions I have is to punch the nail or to remove it and replace it with a stainless steel counter sunk screw.  
Punching the nail is easy and I have to do this frequently, HOWEVER, it can and most often does cause damage to the decking by splitting the timber and  I just don't want to cause any damage whatsoever.
Often when I get down and look closely even before I begin, I can see the timber is split from the initial installation. I see a lot of decks where the timber is split and the nails have oxidised with the moisture and the splits are black. Some of the decks are installed with a nail gun which is probably worse. Occasionally ,I see bullet head nails and these are at least able to be punched with minimal to no splitting. Regardless of the nail used those that are in the sun will generally find a way of popping up and need to be knocked back down usually 1-2 times annually.
When I explain this splitting issue the most common question is why did the builder use them? Well I can't answer for the builder at all. Perhaps the builder may have given the client the costing based on nails versus screws and because the nails are quite a bit cheaper and quicker with  the bottom line winning  the discussion.
At some homes they have called the original builder and first coating installer to seek information on how to fix it up without much success and that is when I am generally called. Replacing the nails with countersunk ss screws is slow and costly so most folks don't like that proposal either so many just grit their teeth and hope it will all go away and the deck will fix itself. Which it can't. Some accept the fact the timber will wind up with splits. The question I can't answer is how much and big the splitting will be. The ends of the boards are most prone to splitting and on most decks two boards meet on a common joist so it will almost always happen. I am usually asked what happens if you just sand off the head. Well it will sit flush to the surface and once wet will leave black oxidation staing around each nail. What is even more important to me is that it wrecks my quality abrasives and sanding pads and large 200 mm roller which is about 800.00 to replace. As soon as you strike metal you can feel the effectiveness of the abrasive is lost.  
 I am feeling a little better getting this rant out and my suggestion to anyone out there who is considering building a deck. Fix the boards down intially with either SS countersunk decking screws or look at a some of the hidden fasteners on the market. Both will cost extra in the beginning but sometime in the future most decks will need sanding especially where they are exposed to sun.  
Off to the beer fridge 
jimj   restore-a-deck

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## PlatypusGardens

That was an entertaining rant to read and I feel your pain.
In the past while working for other people (self employed now) we built a few decks using nailguns.
I don't like them and much prefer drill/screw as a fixing method. 
Quite often you'd get to the last nail*** in a 5.4m board and it would split the timber.
Sure that happens with screws as well, but at least it's a lot easier to remove the board, cut of the split end and reuse it.  ***(Not talking about the *very* end one of course, as that one would be predrilled and hammered in by hand.)   
Enjoy that beer.       :Smilie:

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## ringtail

Thats it. I'm coming up there jimj. We can tag team them. I'll replace all the decking and you can do the finishing. Just have to convince the masses that the bottom line doesnt matter initially, its the ongoings that will get them in the end. I reckon the problem is magnified 10 fold by home owners letting the decks go and believing the utter bollocks written on the product tins and dodgy building practices of course. Just out of interest, out of the 15, how many jobs did you pick up ? Do they want them " fixed" for xmas BBQ's ?

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## PlatypusGardens

> Just have to convince the masses that the bottom line doesnt matter initially, its the ongoings that will get them in the end.

  Yes as with any kind of outdoor product really.
I often get asked to create a low/non maintenance garden. 
To which I usually reply "concrete the lot and set up a sprinkler system spraying roundup weekly".     :Wink 1:

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## stevoh741

Well said Jim. I always stand by stainless steel screws (only) for decks. Have seen guys build decks with the gal screws cause it was couple hundred $$$ cheaper than SS. Would love to be around in couple of years when they need sanding and realise the implications of sanding the gal off the top of the fixings to say, "I told you so". $200 won't look like much then will it? 
Here is a good analagy: People won't spend a little extra to buy pesticide free organic food but the will mortgage the house when they get cancer to try cure it. A little extra in prevention is much better than a shitload in the cure. Not much to do with decks, but you get my drift......

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## tissue

Thanks for that. Made me feel a whole lot better about my decision to go with countersunk SS screws. Around 1500 in, 1000 left to go.

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## denaria

Am not au fait with BSA rules but it seems obvious they might have stepped into that area, they've hobnailed boots into everything else, scuse the pun.

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## kampo

Hi, I totally agree that using screws would be so much better. Unfortunately my deck is nailed. Is there a particularly good method of lifting up the boards and getting the nails out which will reduce risk of damage to the timber?
thank you

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## jimj

Always good to see a few folks who can make it to the end of my rants. Ive discovered doing this job that there arn't that many others that are stupid enough to want to do this for a living. Yeah ringtail come up to  the sunshine coast ( where it rains daily) and have some fun with me.  
Kampo no doubt others will have a different method but I try to figure out which single board would be the easiest to lift up and expose the board next to it. Once the board is out it is quite easy to tap a lifting bar under the decking board say 10 mm then do the same at every board-joist intersection. Then move back and repeat until you finally have the board popped out. Turn over and knock the nail down until nearly flush with the bottom of the board then turn over and extract the nail. Throw the 0x#^&* nail as far as you can. Repeat this with the next board. Then place back the board that you just threw all the nails into your neighbors backyard. Drill through the nail hole with the correct drill size then insert the screw making sure it is countersunk. You can use a smartbit if you want. I use the festool countersunk drill tool but the Spax-D screws will pull themselves into the timber fairly agressively. I am not concerned that much with which screw you use or how you get it countersunk. Just make sure it is. Sorry for all of the stuff ups its been a great beer fridge day. 
jimj  
 PS. Does any one know how we can petition that the dome headed twist nails or screws that are left proud can be banned? Anyone friends of Anna or Julia?

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## ringtail

Anna or Juliar have friends ? I still think a education campaign re deck coating maintenance would be the best place to start. Every 6 months *max* for exposed decks, every 12 months *max* for covered decks. What that routine involved would differ depending on screws or nails but a tap down of domes or a punch of jolts and a recoat would have to be better than a full on strip, screw, sand and recoat. I cant even imagine doing that jimj. What a massive PITA. Get them before they degrade is the key. Every holiday house Ive stayed at up the sunny coast has had a deck ( high set)that boarders on the edge of complete failure. I take photos and give them to the letting agent along with a business card ( not hoping to get the job just to show my quals) and a year later there is the same deck, in even worse condition. What is it with landlords, do they need a lawsuit before they get anything fixed ? I'm going to straddy instead for hols this time.

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## PlatypusGardens

> Throw the 0x#^&* nail as far as you can. 
> Repeat this with the next board. 
> Then place back the board that you just threw all the nails into your neighbors backyard.

  
I came *this* close to spitting beer through my nose when reading that....       :Laughing1:

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## jimj

Wow! that was a close call. Glad to hear no beer was wasted. 
jimj

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## ringtail

Howd ya go today jimj ? Have a better day ?

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## jimj

Thanks for your concern Ringtail. A normal day with looking at 2 decks booked last week to see on Monday. First one was dome headed fixed and the second was screwed with only 50% of the screws proud.  Not much changes. 
Happy Festive Season to all! 
jimj

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## ringtail

Whats the success rate for removing or deeper driving screws without snapping ? Not very high I would guess

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## jimj

Ringtail as you say  driving the screw deeper doesn;t really work well at all. Each scenario has its own issues. Hardwood-pine joists. Length of time exposed to the elements and quality of screw. Yesterday I took a number of different screws with me and experimented with the owner. 70% of the rusted steel phillip head scres back out of 19 mm yellow balau with pine joists. the other 30% snapped the head off. With those I punched the screw shaft deeper into the joist and fond after doing this that I could drive a ss 50mm spax-D screw in slowly with it countersinking itself easily.  These are very robust but compact screws although they are 29cents each. The home owner is now going to replace the 2500 X*&%?< screws with the spax-D over the next few weeks to save on labour costs and I will come in after to sand and coat. fussy and pedantic yes but it will improve the deck considerably. You could feel the boards being pulled done snugger.
The screws that are just a huge hassle are batten screws left proud with the internal pocket rounded out from its initial installation into hardwood joists.  Thats when the best answer is the gelegnite. 
jimj

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## ringtail

If only it was done right in the first place eh. Half the time the clients let themselves down by being tight and the other half they are let down by bad " tradesmen". Put the two together and you have the nightmare scenario. Mmmmmm, batten screws into ironbark - nice - good luck.

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## stevoh741

I recently started using spax screws with my decks. Halved the install time and they even back out without shearing (hardwood believe it or not). I won't use anything else now after this discovery.

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## ringtail

Googling spax now

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## jimj

I can sense a screwed deck revolution evolving. 
jimj

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## ringtail

Where can you get them in Bris. The website is pretty crap as far as giving store locations

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## jimj

I am not sure who stocks these in Brisbane. I know 3 retailers here on the Sunshine Coast. I would contact the importer. From what I understand he is in Cairns. I enquired about 18 months ago and he returned my call and directed me to who was stocking them. sorry I can't remember his name. 
good luck hope you can track them down.  
jimj

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## bluemetal77

Might be an appropriate place to ask this question! 
Using the T17, 10G 50mm screws for my decking (will start over the xmas break) .. but because its a low deck over concrete, i could only manage joists that were 35mm thick .. add to that the hardwood width of 20mm .. gives me 55mm .. do you think screwing the deck with the 50mm screw is still okay? (considering i have 55mm to play with including deck+joist) 
As we all know, not all decking boards would be 20 .. they could be 19mm .. which means a couple of mm less there .. so if the screw goes in right up to 53 or 54mm in depth .. does that pose a risk? .. I could go 40mm if its advisable .. 
Just adding that i'll be screwing each board zig-zag .. meaning the screws on the same decking board will be in two different spots on the joist and not in the same line .. ta! 
Thanks!

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## ringtail

Are the 35 mm thick joists actually fixed to the concrete - I hope so. Re the screws, they must be countersunk and should not protrude from the bottom of the joist. I would go 40 mm max.

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## r3nov8or

> If only it was done right in the first place eh...

  Of course "done right" also includes using appropriate nails *and keeping up the maintenance to required intervals*. If maintenance is done well, the fixing method is largely irrelevant.  
When you buy a used car, you should check the maintenance history, and if it falls short you factor that into the purchase price. When you buy a used deck, you should factor in any lack of maintenance, and not cry poor when jimj comes along with the necessary bad news. If lack of maintenance was on 'your watch' you only have yourself to blame.

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## ringtail

> Of course "done right" also includes using appropriate nails *and keeping up the maintenance to required intervals*. If maintenance is done well, the fixing method is largely irrelevant.  
> When you buy a used car, you should check the maintenance history, and if it falls short you factor that into the purchase price. When you buy a used deck, you should factor in any lack of maintenance, and not cry poor when jimj comes along with the necessary bad news. If lack of maintenance was on 'your watch' you only have yourself to blame.

  Couldn't agree more.

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## ringtail

Ok, firstly I'd like to give jimj big ups for going the extra mile. He has gone to his supplier and grabbed a handful of spax screws and a brochure and mailed them to me so I can have a play. Awesome.They arrived by courier late this arvo so I'll have a play on some different decking - kwila, spotty and masarandubra. I'll take some pics and post a little review. Very impressive looking screws I must say. Once again, thanks to jimj for his most generous gesture. Review tomorrow.

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## stevoh741

Hey ringtail, get ready to be disappointed by every other screw on the market after this  :Redface: )

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## ringtail

They certainly look the goods. You boys got some serious rain happening up there. Over 100 mm in the dam catchment

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## jimj

Ringtail, 
Thanks for the kind words and I am sure many readers on this forum will look forward to your opinion and results of testing this screw. With either a nail or a screw  a hole must be drilled in the first place. So which is easier to fix a nail or screw? In my mind they are both about the time and effort especially if you are using a combined drill-countersinking tool. However with the small heads of this Spax-D screw they will pull themselves into the timber and sink beneath the timber surface. The real challenge is to get a uniform depth beneath the surface with minimal thinking-hassle. You can set up a stop guage that extends from the drill with a little bit of adjustment on some scrap timber and use that. It may leave a small timber burr standing up around the hole but this can easily removed with a light 80 grit paper and cork block if you don't have a sander. 
However ,I just stumbled on to the Spax-D Screw Sleeve  . I hadn't seen this until I found this brochure.  This is another piece to the puzzle of easy fixing. This screw sleeve goes into your fixing drill and can be very easily adjusted and STAY adjusted to sink the screw to the exact depth you want to achieve. So now just drill the hole and sink with this tool. 
I bought mine yesterday and had a play with it. Brilliant! It comes with 2 Stainless steel  star   T25 driving bits. I am not sure how correct this is but the owner of the shop told me this bit is stronger than the normal star bit and can do 10,000 screws. Well only time can tell with that claim but the Screw sleeve looks and feels robust enough to handle the work load. Cost was 86.00 and to some that might sound over the top but after years of buying German festool tools I am used to the German sticker price shock. I chew up a SH*&%T load of Festool abrasives and the 150 mm sanding pad which are 70.00 every several weeks alone so this actually seems like a bargain. For many it will come down to the cost of the nail vs screw. The 50mm screw which would be used by most folks fixing a 19mm board is 29cents each. I realise to many this seems excessive and I wish they were cheaper, but if used, they won't need knocking down in the future and any maintenance dramas in the future will be minimised. So pay a little more now and benefit in the future. Of course the same can be said the fixings that are placed on the sides of the boards as well 
Ringtail , as I am a total computer gumby maybe you could have a look at this in the brochure page 15 and get the image up for others to see.  
 Disclaimer: I am not in any way connected with or sell anything to do with Spax or any other product.. I  go to my local timber supplier and purchase like all others. However I am always looking to improve the hassles of deck ownership to allow more time for enjoying the beer fridge. 
jimj    restore-a-deck

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## ringtail

I'll try and get a pic up of the install driver which looks pretty cool. I'm about to go and have a play with the screws since its stopped raining I can get to the van without getting soaked. Ive got some other funky looking screws I'll post pics off aswell. I'm a puter gumby too jimj but the other half works in IT and bails me out daily.

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## watson

Here's one shot off their site.
BTW if you google Spax-D Screw Sleeve.....your thread from here comes up as the first listing  :Hahaha:    
I might get permission to add the Brochure to the Library

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## PlatypusGardens

Wow.
That SPAX looks awesome.  :Eek:   
I feel a trip to the fastener shop coming on.       :2thumbsup:

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## stevoh741

I haven't tried the spax-d (always weary of the 2 threads and haven't had much success with other brands like this) however I do use these (pictured) spax screws for fixing 140x32mm decking to h'wood and when done with a smart bit (combined drill and stop depth countersink bit) every screw gets driven to the same depth. I am sure thought the D's are probably just as good but either way the spax screws are now my screw of choice.

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## jimj

Steveoh
 To me the issue is getting the timber secured in such a way that future maintenance doesn't prove to be a problem. I agree that if the maintence was or is kept up there are less hassles but this is more a rarity. Time gets past and the coating breakdown can be slow and go un-noticed and then all of a sudden it starts looking terrible. As long the screw is stainless steel and all uniformly sunk several mm below the surface the problems of restoration later become easier for the homeowner. There are many screws on the market sold that will do the job. Our decking forum is sponsored by Scrooz which offers good prices  and service for his product What I like about the Spax brand is the drive is star shaped and less likely to round out than the square drive. With the correct pre drilling of 3.5-4.5 mm the screws go in and back out very easy with little to no snapping.  They also have small cutting blades on the lower several threads.However ,they are also probably the most expensive. Are they worth it? Well everyone will come to their own conclusion. Some will use it and others won't for various reasons. At least it is nice to have another option to use in your backpocket of thinking. 
jimj   restore-a-deck

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## ringtail

Ok, here we go with the report. Some interesting results. All holes were predrilled with a 3.5 mm viper bit. The 2 joist types were 150 x 50 F14 USHWD and 90 x 45 MGP 10 T3 pine. 3 types of decking were 90 x 19 kwila, 140 x 22 spotty gum and 90 x 19 masarandubra. For those who have never seen or used M- dubra it is the heaviest, most dense timber I have ever seen. It is extremely durable, very red and quite good looking. The down side is it bleeds like a mother and kwila look good for leaching. Very well priced, plantation grown (allegedly) and sustainable (alledgedly). I have lots and lots of pics so it will run over a few posts. Enjoy.

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## ringtail

Conclusions. In the softer timber like kwila the spax were pretty good. The otters just as good but raised more grain. The spax definitely had a tendanct to split the board and was crap on the end joins. I only drilled with a 3,5 mm bit for everything so maybe a larger hole on the ends might give different results for the spax. The otters, which are slightly bigger in diameter performed much better on the ends, still using the 3.5 mm bit. I gather that the spax splits the board more due to the shape of the head. With its square edge on the bottom doing the damage. The otters raise a lot of timber in the process in the harder timbers llike the spotty gum and m - dubra but if the deck gets sanded after I cant see this been a problem. I'd rather have grain raise than split boards. For me the case is still way to open to discount nails. From my testing I can conclude the following. 
1. The spax are very well made but performed inconsistantly with a lot of splitting. Interesting to note that on the same pair of screws tested, the spax always split the first hole but not the second. On the ends both holes split.
2. The otters are very well made and performed consistantly with heaps of grain raise but only 1 minor split for the entire test
3.Would I make a wholesale change from nails to screws - no, not based on these results anyway.

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## stevoh741

> Steveoh
>  To me the issue is getting the timber secured in such a way that future maintenance doesn't prove to be a problem. I agree that if the maintence was or is kept up there are less hassles but this is more a rarity. Time gets past and the coating breakdown can be slow and go un-noticed and then all of a sudden it starts looking terrible. As long the screw is stainless steel and all uniformly sunk several mm below the surface the problems of restoration later become easier for the homeowner. There are many screws on the market sold that will do the job. Our decking forum is sponsored by Scrooz which offers good prices  and service for his product What I like about the Spax brand is the drive is star shaped and less likely to round out than the square drive. With the correct pre drilling of 3.5-4.5 mm the screws go in and back out very easy with little to no snapping.  They also have small cutting blades on the lower several threads.However ,they are also probably the most expensive. Are they worth it? Well everyone will come to their own conclusion. Some will use it and others won't for various reasons. At least it is nice to have another option to use in your backpocket of thinking. 
> jimj   restore-a-deck

  I know this and agree Jim - I build decks. I was trying to say that I don't like the double threaded screws such as the ones ringtail sampled however I swear by the batten type spax screw (pictured in my last post). I drill/countersink using a smart bit and get fantastic results. They price out similar to a SS batten screw but in my opinion are 10x better. Chat to the boys at Ironbark and see just how popular they becoming. Cheers

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## stevoh741

Ps. Well done on the testing Ringtail. Very thorough and you deserve a beer....or 20. Have a good fishing Xmas

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## ringtail

Had a few tonight, pacing myself for tomorrow. Have good one everyone

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## Phil B

great info on this thread guys.  A few of our dome head SS nailed decks have gone to poo recently so we are keen to look at alternatives and can count on this forum to deliver!

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## jimj

Stevoh, 
Sorry if I wasn't clear in my writing and thinking . I agree with you entirely. Many screws will do the job depending on their quality and the installer  with the   willingness to  go that little bit extra to get them below the wood.  My initial rant was the lack of seeing this method used at some 15-20 houses I had just seen in the last few weeks. With both of us  living on the sunny coast I will know  when I visit one of your built decks and I will be smiling. 
All the best to all and enjoy the festive day. 
jimj

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## jimj

Sorry, I forgot to include another vital piece to this discussion and that is the clients willingness to accept that this type of fixing will benefit them in the longrun by minimizing the  future maintenance issues. And being willing to pay the extra it will cost to have this done. 
jimj

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## ringtail

So Ive got to ask jimj, have you experienced results similiar to mine when using new decking with the spax or have you only used them to replace nails, ie- through the existing nail hole ?  Same question for Stevoh. The end joins pose the biggest worry for me with any screws but I found it interesting that I was not able to avoid splitting the end with the spax into any board while the otters only had one one tiny but acceptable split in the spotty gum and they are a bigger diameter screw than the spax. I reckon its the square shoulder on the bottom of the spax that causes the splits. Love to know your thoughts

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## strangerep

> [...] 90 x 19 masarandubra. For those who have never seen or used M- dubra it is the heaviest, most dense timber I have ever seen.

  Wow -- never heard of that timber. Do you mean this species:  Manilkara bidentata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 
also known as Pacific Jarrah: The Woodage 
BTW, do you have any experience with belian? (Eusideroxylon zwageri)

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## jimj

There is no way I have the experience of being a deck builder so I can only speak from my limited knowledge and experience. I think the end of a board when fixing will always be a problem area regardless of what is used. I know when I punch dome heads at the butt join  it is always the biggest problem. Bullet heads much less but it can still split.   When you get down and have a close inspection regardless of the fixing I often see splits. A lot depends on the joist hardness,timber hardness and its age and condition. I think eack deck construction will have its own idioscycracies.  Like a lot of others I sometimes will use a festool countersink-drill combo first which is adjustable to determine the size and depth of hole. What is interesting is the earlier 50mm spax head was tapered like the 70 more like a v than straight. I have no idea why it was changed. One could even drill with a very small spade bit preset to the depth you want then put the straight sided screw in. The other day when putting the spax in replacing the rusty philip head screws they went in like a hot knife through butter with no splits into 3 year old fully exposed yellow balau. Most decks I see are made from yellow balau,merbau-kwila and Spotted gum. Like Steveoh suggests to insure your hole integrity used a countersink tool first. More time and effort probably resulting in a better job overall. 
Like Steveoh who has found one that works great and he is prepared to take the time to do it that way, my main goal is to repair and restore in such a way to cause minimal  to no damage and have happy clients.
 There are many ways to achieve the end result of a well built deck that will keep everyone happy when it was built as well into the future when the coating has given up.  
Sometimes concrete and tiles are just a lot easier!
 Great report and photos Ringtail. Many people who read your comments will benefit greatly. What a fun way to spend a rainy day!
jimj

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## stevoh741

Hey guys, I just built a new deck couple weeks ago using 140x32mm supadeck into h'wood joists using spax screws.
Below are piccys of the deck, the drill countersink I use (same depth every time - 1 drillbit did this whole deck), the spax screws I use, a shot showing the heads below the deck surface (as they should be) and I tried to show an endshot to show no splitting. I've never had a split, but the hole through the decking board has to be a clearance hole. The decking boards are mostly spotty with a bit of ironbark for good measure. Also the smartbit cuts a clean countersink as can be seen in pic 3&4. I also stagger fixings along joist. Since using this method it has nearly halved the laying time for me. merry xmas guys.

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## jimj

stevoh    Great work, Great Shots and I know if I ever get call to this house sometime in the future to spruce it up I will be smiling!

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## strangerep

> Conclusions. [...]

   First of all, THANK YOU for making the effort to do these tests
and post all those pictures. (I haven't been able to find a convenient
local Spax supplier, hence haven't looked at their range close up.) 
So I have some questions and comments... 
1) Precisely which Spax screws were you using? I guess that one of them
is the "Spax-D" (flat underside), but what's the other one? 
2) With the flat-underside Spax-D screw, is it totally flat underneath,
or are there some cutting ridges that I can't see in the picture?
The Spax website SPAX-D Decking Screws - Stainless Steel for Timber Decks says the screw
is "self-countersinking", so I guess there must be ribs underneath? 
3) The otter screw looks slightly more aggressive than the Spax,
i.e., the thread protrudes further out, meaning it can cut
deeper into the sides of the hole. However, it looks like vice
versa for the top thread. Is that right? (It's a bit hard to
tell for sure from the pictures.) 
4) In the pic where you managed to snap the head of a Spax, was
that caused by not predrilling deep enough? If not, then do you
know what caused it? (I guess this is something to remember when
using an exceptionally hard species.)   

> Interesting to note that on the same pair of screws tested, the spax always
> split the first hole but not the second.

  That makes me wonder if it's something do with which side of the board
you were on when inserting the screw. Maybe a slight lean? Might be
interesting to test whether this still occurs if you move around to the
other side of the board before inserting the second Spax?   

> The otters raise a lot of timber in the process in the harder timbers llike
> the spotty gum and m - dubra but if the deck gets sanded after I cant see this
> been a problem.

  Except that it tends to leave a lot of little divets after sanding.   

> Would I make a wholesale change from nails to screws - no, not based on
> these results anyway.

  Screws have been proven (in CSIRO controlled tests) to hold the board
much more securely than nails, but this is a different criterion from
how the end result appears on the surface. 
-- -- -- -- -- 
I guess this whole thread just highlights the endless war between ease of
initial construction versus convenience of ongoing maintenance. 
Personally, I wish there was a countersunk Type-17 decking screw which had a
smooth underside on the head -- i.e., not self-countersinking. When one needs
to tighten the screws every few years or so to eliminate those annoying
creaking sounds, it's important that the screw pull down on the board without
self-drilling deeper into it. Sadly, this is also the case with ordinary
batten screws. But I'm realistic about how such arguments about ease of
maintenance never win over cheaper initial construction. 
-------------------
"The halls of darkness will defeat you." -- Maurice O'Connor.

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## strangerep

> I just built a new deck couple weeks ago using 140x32mm supadeck into h'wood joists using spax screws.[...].

  Ah -- so good to see a deck built by a specialist! Thanks for posting those pics. 
I have a question about your technique with the Smartbit for hardwood-on-hardwood. How far are you able to advance the bit into the timber before you need to withdraw and clear the debris? 
The reason I ask: a neighbour had a deck built some years ago (by a general builder, not a deck specialist). It was 140 x 30 blackbutt boards onto blue gum joists, with common gal/climacoat 14g type-17 batten screws and using a smartbit for the pilot hole and countersink. Every hole they drilled smoked up quite severely, since they begrudged the time that would have been consumed by withdrawing and clearing the bit more frequently. The result is that many of the screws protrude quite badly above the deck, and they cannot now be unscrewed (presumably because of the hardening that occurred inside the hole as a result of the barbequeing.) 
So I'm wondering whether Smartbits have improved in the mean time, perhaps to incorporate a shallower twist on the bit than normal -- to aid in debris ejection. (?) 
Cheers.

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## ringtail

Sorry for the delayed replies but I'm in and out all day today doing several family things. Drop back in home for a coffee and sanity break before moving to the next one. 
Righto - jimj, agree with joins been a potential PITA regardless of fixing method. Re the yellow balau Ive found it to be quite soft and considerabley softer than kwila and spotty. 
Steveoh - awesome mate. The larger screw heads look perfectly proportioned in the bigger boards eh.  
Strangeprep - the screws were spax-d 50 mm 4.5 mm, the longer spax screw at the bottom I'm not sure on, its not in the catalogue that jimj sent me. The spax - d 50 is completely flat on the underside. With the broken spax, the hole was predrilled deeper than the installed depth of the screw. I would say it was the hardness of the masarandubra that snapped it. Remembering that I only had 4 of them so each screw got worked over much more than normal.I was standing directly above while screwing. One thing I did notice was  that before the board split I could see it bulge a bit first. At the  bulging stage the screw head was about half way embedded. It may have  just been pure coincidence or a softer bit of timber on the other side  of the board - I have no answer for it. 
 As for the screws vs nails, premium quality timber decks are my specialty and I consider myself a carpenter that specialises is high end decking. I'm still yet to have a architect or drafty spec screws for a deck and have never had a request from a client for screws. The nails aint dead, but they are fading away ( I can hear jimj cheering from here) 
Oh yeah, the masarandubra is also called brazilian redwood ( i think) - have a google.

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## strangerep

> As for the screws vs nails, premium quality timber decks are my specialty and I consider myself a carpenter that specialises is high end decking. I'm still yet to have a architect or drafty spec screws for a deck and have never had a request from a client for screws.

  Architects typically spec for lowest cost consistent with what local building regs permit.
They don't have to maintain the deck...  :Mad:    

> have never had a request from a client for screws.

  I wonder how many of those clients have personal experience with the depressing reality of maintaining a deck over time, and the "joys" of sanding it? (But I guess that's not a question that comes up when you're discussing a quote for a new deck.)   

> Oh yeah, the masarandubra is also called brazilian redwood ( i think) - have a google.

  Thanks. (I had indeed already Wikipedia'ed for my previous link.)

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## ringtail

In my experience architects dont give a bugger about the cost ( unless instructed with a strict budget) and tend to spec high end product for a quality finish - as they are not paying for it, what do they care. Ive also had quite a few customers ask for nails as they dont like the visual aspect of screws. Personally I think screws look tops on wide boards but are a bit too obvious on standard width boards. But where there is no spec I give them the pros and cons with a sample of each and mostly they go for SS dome screw shank nails ( which are pretty expensive) mainly because they like the look of nails and the shiny stainless ones look better than gal. They likes what they likes so they get what they likes. My clients are fully warned about the maintenance trap and they all swear they will do their bit but in reality its their money and their house so they can do what they like. Its poor buggers like jimj and his clients that wear the consequences of neglect.

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## stevoh741

> I have a question about your technique with the Smartbit for hardwood-on-hardwood. How far are you able to advance the bit into the timber before you need to withdraw and clear the debris?

  With a new bit I can easily do it in 1 go but (presumably because the timber is wet) there is pressure build up (steam I think) and when you pull it out it sometimes pops. However the norm when I'm doing it is drill till it is firm (about the start of the countersink) then withdraw then redrill and finished. So usually 2 drills per hole but randomally I get bored and force it in one. That whole deck was drilled with the same bit and it is still ok but I will prbably replace the drillbit for the next deck. The countersink part is still sharp as new. I originally bought the smartbit from a timber yard for around $55 (eek!) but I saw them at Bunnings the other day for $39.

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## stevoh741

> Steveoh - awesome mate. The larger screw heads look perfectly proportioned in the bigger boards eh.

  I agree and I wouldn't use anything else for the wide board decks now. Funny thing is I haven't laid a 90x19 deck in a while so am unsure which way to go either, when confronted with one again. All the decks I've built lately I've either been asked to use the wide boards or convinced the owner to use them. I do love these sharing threads though and am always keen to try something new. I do however (currently) draw the line at the concealed fixing systems as to date haven't seen one that doesn't have a long list of (what I percieve to be) issues. One that really worries me is the gal clips that you push the decking into as I'm sure after a few years of weather that thin gal sheeting clips would be slowly desintergrating  :Shock: . Anyhow, I'm off to drink a beer on the deck!

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## ringtail

Agree with the concealed fixings. I'm all for seeing the fixing as long as its in proportion to the board. Seeing no fixings at all makes the deck look sort of fake to me. Like secret nailing internal flooring - undoubtabley the way to go but it could be a piece of lino

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## stevoh741

For anyone from this thread that may be interested here is the finished artical of the deck I posted pics of earlier:

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## strangerep

> here is the finished artical of the deck I posted pics of earlier:

  Fully covered?? Oh that's just cheating!  :Biggrin:

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## ringtail

> For anyone from this thread that may be interested here is the finished artical of the deck I posted pics of earlier:

  Love it mate, top stuff   :2thumbsup:  :2thumbsup:  
Thats how we do things up here strangerep :Tongue:  :Biggrin:  . The amount of outdoor living should be as much if not more than the indoor space

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## stevoh741

Cheers fellas. BTW forgot to add those roof beams just out of the pic at top are LVL's. I wanted hardwood but with only two fixing points on those PFC's couldn't get any straight enough (for my liking anyway). As a plus the 63mm LVL's were cheaper and lighter which was good since this one was all done on my own. Just hit them with 4 coats ultra deck and another 3 on the ends once up. Bit of overkill possibly but they are much closer now to a hardwood colour.

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## ringtail

Would love to see a pic of the roof ?

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## jimj

Nice work Steveoh and isn't it great to see this forum buzzing. Looks like the Easter bunny-bilby made it to everyone. Funny how you never can predict how a thread will evolve. Off in the morning to Shelly Beach,Caloundra to punch 60 m2 of dome headed nails and sand off DWD. Some things never change! 
jimj

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## ringtail

> Nice work Steveoh and isn't it great to see this forum buzzing. Looks like the Easter bunny-bilby made it to everyone. Funny how you never can predict how a thread will evolve. Off in the morning to Shelly Beach,Caloundra to punch 60 m2 of dome headed nails and sand off DWD. Some things never change! 
> jimj

  Perfect way to start the week eh  :Tongue:  :Biggrin:  :Tongue:  60m2 ? faarrrk, hope you have ya gel knee pads and a girdle

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## stevoh741

Hey ringtail I'll take a couple tomorrow. 
Hey jim sucks to be you tomorrow but at least the sun is finally shining...

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## ringtail

Sweet as

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## stevoh741

Here's a couple for you ringtail, mind you for a carpenter I make a chit photographer  :Biggrin: :

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## stevoh741

BTW for all those budding low deck builders that thinkthis is close to ground well its not. The low edge closest to camera in picfrom post #57 is the top of a 1m retaining wall. The far side of the deck is 4mof the ground - hence the vertical balustrade members, and not the horizontalwire that the missus wanted

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## ringtail

> BTW for all those budding low deck builders that thinkthis is close to ground well its not. The low edge closest to camera in picfrom post #57 is the top of a 1m retaining wall. The far side of the deck is 4mof the ground - hence the vertical balustrade members, and not the horizontalwire that the missus wanted

  Nice one mate. I'll keep the PFC's in mind, Seem to simplify things quite a bit. Is that your joint ? if so, bit flash for a chippy mate. Looks finished too, can't have that :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

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## stevoh741

> Nice one mate. I'll keep the PFC's in mind, Seem to simplify things quite a bit. Is that your joint ? if so, bit flash for a chippy mate. Looks finished too, can't have that

  Yep, been 4 long years on this one - sometimes I wish I just knocked it down and started fresh. 95% done, and as much as I say its the last one for awhile, keep finding myself in the property section every saturday (some bargains out there at the moment!!!)
I've done a couple with the PFC's now and they go alright. Only costs about $40 to get all the steel lifted into place - 1 carton, 4 mates (cheap hey!)

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## shauck

Geez, that's nice. Very jealous.

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## ringtail

I hate to say it but a lot of people are starting to fall over and cant pay the mortgage. Sunny coast is buyers paradise at the moment

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## stevoh741

It's certainly not workers paradise. I don't know a single chippy here anymore they are all gone. Building work up here is as scarce as a government surplus!  :Yikes2:

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## ringtail

> It's certainly not workers paradise. I don't know a single chippy here anymore they are all gone. Building work up here is as scarce as a government surplus!

  There all down here looking for work - problem is, there aint any down here either. Very, very quite across the board - commercial, res, renno - nothing doing. Same on the Goldy. Every morning the M1 is chokkas full of tradies utes coming to Brisbane looking for work

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## stevoh741

and the funny thing is the wanky government is telling everyone there is a skills shortage! Then they tell us that there is so many mining jobs that they cant fill and are giving them to overseas workers but everyone I know cant even get a job in the mine??? go figure?

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## ringtail

Ive heard that too about the mines

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