# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  difference between rigid and anneal copper pipe?

## Renomaster

except one is hard and the other is soft easy to bend, how to join them together, I remember someone told me that you cannot join annealed copper pipe by soldering, is that right?

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## Random Username

Hard drawn copper is the state that the copper is in after being extruded from the die. To anneal it, it's then heated and quenched and the result is nice, soft, bendable copper. 
Both types are equally solderable/brazable/weldable to each other, but the process will locally anneal hard drawn copper. 
The only problem may come from trying to use a swagging tool to flare hard drawn copper, where the extra work hardening may cause the copper to split.

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## Bros

If you want a neat job hard drawn is by far the best but you must have good benders and only bend one way. If you go to far with a bend and you try to undo it it will crack so you creep up on a bend.

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## Renomaster

Does that mean those long annealled copper coil (eg.18m) is better for general purpose, as it is very easy to bend, so need less connector, and if needed it also can be soldered with those copper fittings as well.w

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## cyclic

Have a look at this discussion http://www.renovateforum.com/f194/co...er-why-111582/ 
You don't say what size you are looking at. 
If 1/2", then reasonably easy to bend soft copper without benders, but 3/4" is a little more difficult and will kink/flatten easily without benders, and in the linked discussion, depends 
 what you want it to look like, as in exposed or concealed. 
Not sure what fittings you are referring to in regards to soldering.

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## Renomaster

> Have a look at this discussion http://www.renovateforum.com/f194/co...er-why-111582/ 
> You don't say what size you are looking at. 
> If 1/2", then reasonably easy to bend soft copper without benders, but 3/4" is a little more difficult and will kink/flatten easily without benders, and in the linked discussion, depends 
>  what you want it to look like, as in exposed or concealed. 
> Not sure what fittings you are referring to in regards to soldering.

  I am talking about 1/2" and 3/4" copper pipe,for water, to be installed part underground and part between the double brick wall. the fitting is those 3/4" to 1/2" copper reducer (all from bunnings).

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## Random Username

Those fittings work well.  Make sure you clean the copper well (to a bright and shiny surface) with sandpaper/scotchbrite/wire brush and use a flux.  How-To Solder Copper Pipe With Tara - YouTube 
(Can someone please explain why yanks continually mispronounce 'sole-der' as 'sodder'???) 
PS.  You wouldn't catch me soldering in clothes like that!

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## cyclic

> I am talking about 1/2" and 3/4" copper pipe,for water, to be installed part underground and part between the double brick wall. the fitting is those 3/4" to 1/2" copper reducer (all from bunnings).

  I only shop in Trade Supplies not handyman outlets, so if you are referring to the soft soldered fittings in the u tube link, I am sure they are not approved for Australian use but 
 hopefully,one of the younger Plumbers will confirm or deny this. 
To the best of my knowledge the soft soldered fittings were outlawed in the 70's. Prior to that they were called Yorkshire fittings and came with a ring of solder inside each fitting. 
Only silver soldered fittings are approved so if you use the soft soldered ones, you run the risk of leaks.

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## phild01

> I only shop in Trade Supplies not handyman outlets, so if you are referring to the soft soldered fittings in the u tube link, I am sure they are not approved for Australian use

  Bunnings sell the same ones as the trade outlets.  Haven't seen a Yorkshire for ages.  Last year I spoke with a young plumber about soft solder and he said it is ok. I too thought silver was the only way.

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## Bros

Yorkshire ones were good if you didn't have OXY but hard solder is the best.

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## Renomaster

> I only shop in Trade Supplies not handyman outlets, so if you are referring to the soft soldered fittings in the u tube link, I am sure they are not approved for Australian use but 
>  hopefully,one of the younger Plumbers will confirm or deny this. 
> To the best of my knowledge the soft soldered fittings were outlawed in the 70's. Prior to that they were called Yorkshire fittings and came with a ring of solder inside each fitting. 
> Only silver soldered fittings are approved so if you use the soft soldered ones, you run the risk of leaks.

  I temember bunnings website says they are watermark certified and australian standard certified, but I don't know what does that mean

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## cyclic

> I temember bunnings website says they are watermark certified and australian standard certified, but I don't know what does that mean

  That means the fitting is approved for use in Aus but, the installation will not be approved if not installed by a Licensed Plumber in the correct manner with the correct jointing material.

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## Random Username

The hardware stores have shifted a lot of their plumbing inventory to the various PEX pipe systems as those are more DIY-able (and do you want to sell a yorkie fitting for $1.76 or a PEX fitting for $7.65????). 
I couldn't even find 3/4" copper fittings (with or without solder ring) in my local Home Hardware!

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## wonderplumb

You'll find a coil of annealed copper a pain to work with and you'll also find that you'll end up with almost the same amount of cuts and joins between it and HD copper. Soft solder is also forbidden on annealed pipe. 
So, why not just buy HD and get a far superior job for your effort?

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## Renomaster

> You'll find a coil of annealed copper a pain to work with and you'll also find that you'll end up with almost the same amount of cuts and joins between it and HD copper. Soft solder is also forbidden on annealed pipe. 
> So, why not just buy HD and get a far superior job for your effort?

  Does than mean the coil of annealed copper pipe should not be soldered? (That was my key concern in my post.)

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## wonderplumb

Should not be soft soldered but can be silver soldered.

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## Random Username

When did they bring that in?  The only silver soldered work I've ever seen here in the ACT has been on gas pipe. All the houses I've been in (save the latest, which is PEX) have had soft solder on the (annealed) water pipe.

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## Renomaster

> Should not be soft soldered but can be silver soldered.

  Is the only difference between soft soldering and hard soldering the type of solder used? My understanding is hard soldering requires higher temperature, usually require use torch. Soft soldering usually refers to those use solder iron work on electronic component?
If I buy some plumbing solder pack (flux and silver bearing solder) from bunnings and use a gas torch work with, it should be silver (hard) soldering, is that right?

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## phild01

> Is the only difference between soft soldering and hard soldering the type of solder used? My understanding is hard soldering requires higher temperature, usually require use torch. Soft soldering usually refers to those use solder iron work on electronic component?
> If I buy some plumbing solder pack (flux and silver bearing solder) from bunnings and use a gas torch work with, it should be silver (hard) soldering, is that right?

  No! Soldering iron and soft soldering is same type of solder and your soldering iron type has the flux built in.  Soft soldering requires a low temp flame.  Silver soldering uses a high temp flame and you wont do it with lpg type gas (maybe with addition of oxygen).  MAPP gas can do the silver solder in time and faster with oxygen.  Silver soldering is generally done with oxy/acetylene.

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## wonderplumb

MAPP can be a pain in the backside with silver solder and to get it to work efficiently you need to know what you're doing as far as sweating the solder in and it helps if you use a solder with a higher silver content such as 15%, then it really starts blowing the cost out. MAPP is far more expensive to use than oxy as well. 
Perhaps you should employ a plumber?

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## wonderplumb

> When did they bring that in?  The only silver soldered work I've ever seen here in the ACT has been on gas pipe. All the houses I've been in (save the latest, which is PEX) have had soft solder on the (annealed) water pipe.

  It's in the standard. 
Why would they use HD copper with silver solder on the gas yet use an annealed coil with soft solder for the water in the same house? 
It does not make sense, both economically and practically.

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## wonderplumb

> I only shop in Trade Supplies not handyman outlets, so if you are referring to the soft soldered fittings in the u tube link, I am sure they are not approved for Australian use but 
>  hopefully,one of the younger Plumbers will confirm or deny this. 
> To the best of my knowledge the soft soldered fittings were outlawed in the 70's. Prior to that they were called Yorkshire fittings and came with a ring of solder inside each fitting. 
> Only silver soldered fittings are approved so if you use the soft soldered ones, you run the risk of leaks.

  You can still buy Yorkshire or Yorkway (whatever they're called) fittings with the solder ring inside but they're hard to get hold of. Ace Gutters down here is about the only plumbing supplies that sell them.

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## Renomaster

How about the kit below, will it work? Given even the sexy lady in the video can do, I would like to have a try. I only want to make a tee junction with a 15mm water pipe outside my house for a garden tap.
Someone mentioned 15% Ag rod above, couldn't find it. The one in the photo is 5%. Also the lead free flux.
Anything wrong?

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## Random Username

MAP gas should happily get the copper hot enough.  (I just put a large tip on my regular torch and it works fine...but it is a large tip) 
You don't need flux with those phos-copper rods when doing copper to copper; just when doing copper to brass/bronze.  The phosphorus in the rods acts as a flux and nothing else is needed (except making sure the copper is clean before starting). 
And that flux you have is for soft soldering, not brazing; you need a general purpose brazing flux to go with the phos-copper rods.

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## Renomaster

> MAP gas should happily get the copper hot enough.  (I just put a large tip on my regular torch and it works fine...but it is a large tip) 
> You don't need flux with those phos-copper rods when doing copper to copper; just when doing copper to brass/bronze.  The phosphorus in the rods acts as a flux and nothing else is needed (except making sure the copper is clean before starting). 
> And that flux you have is for soft soldering, not brazing; you need a general purpose brazing flux to go with the phos-copper rods.

  Thanks for your info, just wondering you said no need to use flux for the rods in the photo when doing copper to copper, is that because:
1) the rod already contains flux
or 2) the rod doesn't have flux, it's unnecessary to use either, but it won't hurt if still use the flux you suggested, it may help to improve the flowability. As this will be the first time I try the soldering, I want to do all possible preparation to make the job smoothly done. 
I also need to do a copper to braze, do I need different rod for it? As you said above that the rod in photo will act as flux when do copper to copper.
thanks.

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## Random Username

> *The phosphorus in the rods acts as a flux and nothing else is needed*.

  Adding flux just makes a mess. Phos-copper has to be the cleanest and nicest brazing process ever.  The only thing that ever goes wrong apart from not cleaning the copper, is too much rod being used which makes the join unsightly because it flows everywhere.   phos-copper brazing - YouTube  Brazing Copper to Copper with Sil-Fos® - YouTube
(just ignore the American pronunciation of 'soddering' for 'soldering')

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## Renomaster

Tried copper to copper, it seems not too bad, as you can see below. However for copper to brass, seems failed for the first time.
I follow the step in the video (clean, apply flux, heat, then apply rod), but it seems the silver stick or flux I use is not right, as it seems the melt rod does not flow at all, maybe I apply to much solder, as you can see after finish, I still can put them apart easily, any idea? (What rod will you use, any detail or photo) 
(BTW, I didn't find the flux you recommended, so i chose the one above which is very close to, both brand and description. 
In terms of rod, I have no idea, refer to picture above.)  
Bunnings only got below two flux, I bought the first one. However there are too many solder, the one I use was Consolidated Alloys 5% silver

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## phild01

> maybe I apply to much solder, as you can see after finish, I still can put them apart easily, any idea? (What rod will you use, any detail or photo) 
> (BTW, I didn't find the flux you recommended, so i chose the one above which is very close to, both brand and description. 
> In terms of rod, I have no idea, refer to picture above.)  
> Bunnings only got below two flux, I bought the first one Attachment 100519

  You are attempting silver soldering with the mapp gas as it seems.  Your attempt is impatience I suspect.  Just because the rod melts around the joint does not mean all is well.  The solder needs to draw into the joint and it will with the right flux and heat.  What you were soldering there is quite hefty and needs significant heat.  If I attempt this type of thing I also use oxygen and a pencil flame torch with the mapp gas.  Your torch will do it eventually with lots and lots of heat.

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## Renomaster

The copper pipe was turning red, I was afraid it will melt, as it takes much longer time than do copper to copper, still not hot enough?
Maybe I need try even longer time to make sure it's hot enough. Just want to make sure whether I use the correct flux and solder or not.

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## phild01

> The copper pipe was turning red, I was afraid it will melt, as it takes much longer time than do copper to copper, still not hot enough?
> Maybe I need try even longer time to make sure it's hot enough. Just want to make sure whether I use the correct flux and solder or not.

  You need to direct much more heat to the brass rather than the pipe.

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## Random Username

I use the 2% (yellow tip) silver solder because I'm a cheaparse.   
Dull cherry red is nearly up to the right temperature -  just go a little hotter.  Typically by the time I have finished silver soldering, the piece is glowing bright red. 
Even with my large (about 15mm) diameter burner, there's no way it'll feed in enough heat to melt copper water pipe (and I've tried!)  Copper melts at just over 1,000 degrees, and it's a very good conductor of heat. 
And the flux you have...(Comweld copper and brass flux)...is the wrong stuff.  You needed the one in the second picture, the silver brazing flux (which is actually a silver soldering flux because the industry can't get it's nomenclature together). 
That Copper and Brass flux is a flux for braze welding (ie using bronze alloy rods) of steels, not silver soldering.

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## wonderplumb

It sounds like you're not getting the pipe and fittings hot enough to sweat the solder in. This is why I rarely use MAPP.

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## Renomaster

> It sounds like you're not getting the pipe and fittings hot enough to sweat the solder in. This is why I rarely use MAPP.

   Finally I did one with patient, and it seems not too bad, will upload a photo tonight, thanks for everyone's help.

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