# Forum Home Renovation Waterproofing  Does this shower waterstop meet standards?

## Overkill

Hi, 
From the same company that got my bath, puddle flanges, and shower head wrong, I now present the Wonky Waterstop  :Biggrin: . I had no idea there might be an issue until another company came in to quote on the frameless shower screen. They commented that it was most unusual for the waterstop not to be showing above the tiles and after doing a search thru this site I realised the problem.  
The waterstop was originally at least 15mm higher than the screed and I saw the tilers carefully cut it off flush just before tiling. Rather than spread the tile cement evenly with a notched trowel, they applied a 4 by 4 grid of cement dollops to the 600 x 600 tiles. When they had to pull some tiles off, I could see large voids between the cement, which would make it very easy for water to run under the tiles. 
Just how much of a problem is this and what should I do about, if anything?

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## Oldsaltoz

I have pulled many leaking showers apart and often seen the angle trimmed to tile finish level, it seems that as long at the screen sits inside or on the angle and a sealant is applied between the screen and water stop angle there are very few problems. 
However. some times the tile finish is above the water stop and the gap filled with grout. This is a real problem. 
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## Overkill

OK, the waterstop is level with the screed and the tile goes right over it - its definitely in your problem category. The builders keep telling me "that's how everyone does it" when I point out issues (like not using puddle flanges); would the waterstop installation be covered in any standards that I can show them? What sort of symptoms would this problem have and how long might it take to show up? 
This sounds like a major amount of work to fix up: the floor will need to be taken up to outside the shower area, new waterstop installed, new membrane, new screed and retiled - the builders will be trying everything to weasel out of it!

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## sparkiecol

The way you describe how the tiles were laid is consistant with tiling a wall thats out of plumb.
Grout is not a waterproofing membrane and I would expect to voids between the dobs of glue on the floor tile will fill with water and probably smell rank after a period of time.
The builder should have been overseeing the process?
No wonder a guy chooses to DIY, at least you can do it a poorly as the paid pro's. (as remarked by my Owner Builder tutor!!)

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## Overkill

Ha Ha, that is so true! I would rate myself as barely competent to tile a simple splashback, but at least I take the time to spread the adhesive properly. I discovered from chatting to the supervisor (who wasn't around much) that he mostly knew about concreting and earthworks; he had no idea what a puddle flange looked like and didn't know any of the waterproofing standards I refereed to. In other words, his tradies did whatever they felt like!  
I got the tiler to use a grout additive that supposedly adds a bit of watter resistance to the grout and I already planned to use a grout sealer but as you say, grout is never really water proof.

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## Random Username

I had that exact problem - tiles and tile cement and grout extending over the waterstop angle.   
Three years and the whole floor had to come up.  Builder swore blind that it was because of where we had the spa (it formed one side of the shower enclosure), even though there was no water damage at all in that area.

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## Oldsaltoz

> OK, the waterstop is level with the screed and the tile goes right over it  Are you sure the top of the waterstop shower angle is level with the screed? and not level with the top of the tile. 
> its definitely in your problem category. The builders keep telling me "that's how everyone does it" when I point out issues (like not using puddle flanges); would the waterstop installation be covered in any standards that I can show them? What sort of symptoms would this problem have and how long might it take to show up?  The Standards are crystal clear on all aspects of waterstops, for Instance the old shower hob just sits on top of the tiles and relies on the water being deflected off the screen, sealant alone prevents them leaking, no waterstop as such at this point, though the hop itself prevents any shower floor water from escaping, much like a waterstop angle in a shower or entry door.  The change to waterstop angles came in when angles became more popular to enclose showers rather than a recess or a hob, shortly after the idea of leaving the angle proud of the tiles came in, however, this needed a special screen frame that has a slot in the bottom frame to accommodate the 5 mm of angle above the tile finish. Problem is, this can not be done with a frame-less (all glass) shower screen. The result here was to make the waterstop level with the tile finish and seal on the outside. 
> You can install a shower screen against a waterstop angle provided it's 'just' above the tiles and can be concealed with a smooth rin of sealant on the outside only. 
> The only other alternative is to allow the waterstop to stand higher and cover it with another (decorative) angle to hide it. 
> This sounds like a major amount of work to fix up: the floor will need to be taken up to outside the shower area, new waterstop installed, new membrane, new screed and retiled - the builders will be trying everything to weasel out of it!

  No, the floor will remain, no point in disturbing it. The angle is installed with upright on the outside and the horizontal on the inside, this ensures the membrane covers the joint between floor and angle. 
Hope this helps.   
Good luck.   :Smilie:

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## Overkill

Thanks for the info. The waterstop is definitely level with the top of the screed and not the tiles; I saw the finished screed and later I dropped by when the tilers had cut about half the waterstop off with an angle grinder - I wish I had known more at the time! The shower screen has an angled door, so if the tilers had followed the waterstop there would be a tile with a 45 Deg. cut across it. The 600 x 600 tile layout bears absolutely no relationship to the 900 x 1400 shower enclosure, so there is no chance that the waterstop is buried in a grout line. As I know the exact dimensions of the waterstop under the tiles, would it help at all if I get the shower screen installed 10 or 20mm inside that?  
Yesterday was the last day of construction and I would really prefer not to rip everything up right now. During the puddle flange palaver, the supervisor kept telling me not to worry, their insurance would cover any leakage problems.  While I don't really believe him any longer, I'm thinking it may be enough to put him on notice that the work does not meet standards and if there is a real issue in the months or years ahead, I can pull out my 'I told you so' letter and get it fixed.  
I haven't handed over the final payment yet, so if there is a guaranteed disaster in the near future I will use that as leverage for a fix. OTOH, If there is a chance that the work will not cause issues for the next 5 to 7 years, I will let it slide and rely on the builder's insurance.

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## Random Username

The insurance may meet the cost...its more the case of 'oh, those tiles aren't available any more' and having to have a different type of tile put back on the floor, and of course the builder will argue that the walls aren't leaking so they don't need redoing. 
Get 'em to rip it all out and do it properly.  (the waterstop angle should project 5mm above the tile surface)  http://www.infotile.com/pdfFile/advi...7201031029.pdf

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## Overkill

Brilliant, that document is WAY easier to read than AS3740! I will send that to the builder along with a request to fix the waterstop.

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## Oldsaltoz

> Thanks for the info. The waterstop is definitely level with the top of the screed and not the tiles; I saw the finished screed and later I dropped by when the tilers had cut about half the waterstop off with an angle grinder - I wish I had known more at the time! The shower screen has an angled door, so if the tilers had followed the waterstop there would be a tile with a 45 Deg. cut across it. The 600 x 600 tile layout bears absolutely no relationship to the 900 x 1400 shower enclosure, so there is no chance that the waterstop is buried in a grout line. As I know the exact dimensions of the waterstop under the tiles, would it help at all if I get the shower screen installed 10 or 20mm inside that?  
> Yesterday was the last day of construction and I would really prefer not to rip everything up right now. During the puddle flange palaver, the supervisor kept telling me not to worry, their insurance would cover any leakage problems.  While I don't really believe him any longer, I'm thinking it may be enough to put him on notice that the work does not meet standards and if there is a real issue in the months or years ahead, I can pull out my 'I told you so' letter and get it fixed.  
> I haven't handed over the final payment yet, so if there is a guaranteed disaster in the near future I will use that as leverage for a fix. OTOH, If there is a chance that the work will not cause issues for the next 5 to 7 years, I will let it slide and rely on the builder's insurance.

  Sifting the the shower screen will make no difference other than making it smaller. 
Builders warranty is about to be reduced to 6 years in Qld, not sure about other states yet but I follow this up. 
Good luck,   :Smilie:

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## grantbudd

that is an awful story to hear. Yes this is why I do it myself. Iknow to what point I am out of my depth and get the trades in. Even after trades have been in I still find problems that I have to go and fix. It is a shame that people will take short cuts and not do the job properly even though they know what you want to do... 
I would keep the final payment and get your defects list together...Until your defects list is completed then no money should exchange hands.  
The tilers putting dollops of glue down is just lazy and this is how tiles crack from no support. They are probably quoting you on per m2 for adhesive and making a bag go twice the distance...The bag will state the coverage based on a certain sized notched trowel not on the size of your dollop! 
If the water stop is at substrate level then how is called a water stop angle? What is it stopping?? Its not a substrate angle....Did you take photos? Always good when building a case against the cowboys! 
Puddle flange? Oh I have to find that thread....All I know is you need one on screed beds... 
Please keep us posted

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