# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  Electrical License to change a light bulb?

## Smurf

I know this may not be the best section of the forum for this, but I wanted to get the attention of the electricians on here...  :Smilie:  
Question relates to a specific, simple electrical task. That of changing ordinarly 240 volt light bulbs (ES base). 
The power would be intermittently on (a predictable on/off cycle lasting over a minute) whilst bulbs are being changed - this is an industrial situation not domestic lighting. You could just wait for the other lamps to switch off and then promptly change the blown one if you wanted to do it without the socket being live. 
Bottom line is the employer has always held the view that it does not require a qualified electrician to change a light bulb. Whilst electricians are employed, there are also non-electrical staff and they are permitted to change bulbs (unsupervised). The rule is basically that non-electrical staff can change bulbs only, but must not attempt to repair any associated problem or remove any bulb that has shattered etc.  
And what about apprentices? I'd assume that if it's OK for a non-electrical worker to be changing bulbs then an apprentice electrician can also change them without direct supervision once they have been given instruction on how to do it safely and not to attempt to fix anything else that's broken? 
What should be happening here? On one hand I'm thinking it's just a light bulb - a consumer device that doesn't require any license to install and is intended for DIY replacement. On the other hand, I'm thinking that this is electrical work nonetheless so non-electricians shouldn't be employed to do it? 
Underlying reason for the question is about safety and legal obligations. I'm not interested in starting any "industry protection" type debates here, I just want to know what "should" be happening in your opinion. What skills / qualifications does someone need to change a light bulb when doing so at work?

----------


## Master Splinter

If switching the power off is not viable, from a worksafe perspective I'd flick it off as a sparkies job.   
This is because:1) The standard bayonet/ES socket always seems to be electrically unsafe to me - very easy to bridge the terminals with your fingers or stick your finger on a live part while earthed.
2) Because there is a lack of electrical knowledge in the Australian population, Mr or Ms 'Change the lightbulb' person knows nothing about where the safe/unsafe bits in the fitting are, or indeed how the thing works at all...I can just see some helpful soul trying to dislodge an insect carcase with a metal pen while standing on tip-toes on a swivel chair.
3) Bulbs occasonally break when changing, so you've got the added risk of electrical shock as well as cuts from broken glass...and possibly blowing the entire circuit if the bulb seperates from its metal base and the lead wires twist together.
4) Even sparkies manage to kill themselves when working on things that should be isolated (but its too much trouble to switch off, so they don't...and ZAP!)

----------


## racingtadpole

I'd be seeking direction from the office of the technical regulator, and asking the question to a rep of the department of your state govt that manages workplace safety.  These are the offices who will nail you to the wall when it goes pearshaped. 
In the event of the answers not agreeing I would then ask both parties to clarify the responses, citing what the other had said. 
If you cant get the parties to agree, then issue a Provisional Improvement Notice to your employer (which will probably get a severe beating from your employer) and this forces them to sort the issue out in consultation with all parties concerned (including statuatory bodies)and document it for future reference with all parties concerned.

----------


## nev25

Have a read of the Electrical safety act http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Do.../98-25a051.pdf
Particularly what work you need t be licensed to do and the definitions of what the work is

----------


## 2x4

> I just want to know what "should" be happening in your opinion.

  
IMO, providing the employer has supplied a fibreglass ladder and the people involved have signed of on JSA/SWMS they should be able to change a light bulb / tube.
No repairs, only lamp replacement.

----------


## Bros

> The power would be intermittently on (a predictable on/off cycle lasting over a minute) whilst bulbs are being changed - this is an industrial situation not domestic lighting. You could just wait for the other lamps to switch off and then promptly change the blown one if you wanted to do it without the socket being live.

  I would agree with that provided the lights are turned off. But there is one problem in that I have seen with both ES and BC lamps. With the BC lamps it appears to me that the pin size may have been reduced and over time the pin has melted into the solder base of the lamp making lamp removal difficult. With ES lamps some of them bind up and can be even harder to remove so all you have to do is break the lamp in the holder and you need an electrician to remove it   

> And what about apprentices? I'd assume that if it's OK for a non-electrical worker to be changing bulbs then an apprentice electrician can also change them without direct supervision once they have been given instruction on how to do it safely and not to attempt to fix anything else that's broken?

  Ah apprentices I remember as a second year that was my job in a cold room of a meatworks where I had to get a sack of lamps and a lampstick and every month and go and replace the lamps that were out and because they were subject to freezing and thawing the holders filled with water and when removing changing the lamp there was a bang and all the lamps went out so you had to get a ladder and torch and fix the holder. We never turned the lights off when changing the lamps as you couldn't see. You were glad when a new apprentice started. 
I believe with the necessary safery equipment and training anyone can change lamps

----------


## GraemeCook

> If switching the power off is not viable, from a worksafe perspective I'd flick it off as a sparkies job.   
> This is because:1) The standard bayonet/ES socket always seems to be electrically unsafe to me - very easy to bridge the terminals with your fingers or stick your finger on a live part while earthed.
> 2) Because there is a lack of electrical knowledge in the Australian population, Mr or Ms 'Change the lightbulb' person knows nothing about where the safe/unsafe bits in the fitting are, or indeed how the thing works at all...I can just see some helpful soul trying to dislodge an insect carcase with a metal pen while standing on tip-toes on a swivel chair.
> 3) Bulbs occasonally break when changing, so you've got the added risk of electrical shock as well as cuts from broken glass...and possibly blowing the entire circuit if the bulb seperates from its metal base and the lead wires twist together.
> 4) Even sparkies manage to kill themselves when working on things that should be isolated (but its too much trouble to switch off, so they don't...and ZAP!)

  
Hi MS 
Are you implying that sparkies are more expendable than the rest of us? 
Cheers 
Graeme

----------


## GraemeCook

> Have a read of the Electrical safety act http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Do.../98-25a051.pdf
> Particularly what work you need t be licensed to do and the definitions of what the work is

  
Yet another useless response, Nev.   He's actually asking for an interpretation of the legislation.  How does the legislation apply in a particular instance? 
The boss has said that civilians can replace light globes in a particular industrial situation.   If Smurf says "No, a civilian cannot do it, you have to get a sparky." then the boss is likely to ask him to take his talents elsewhere. 
Cheers 
Graeme

----------


## nev25

> Yet another useless response,

  Likewise 
At least I offered some assistance nod not just nitpicking criticism  
Wouldn't the come down to a trade union local demarcation which no one on here can answer
As I said LOCAL 
But I supplied a link the legal document to provide some background

----------


## Bros

> The boss has said that civilians can replace light globes in a particular industrial situation.   If Smurf says "No, a civilian cannot do it, you have to get a sparky." then the boss is likely to ask him to take his talents elsewhere.

  I have no idea of the legislation as I would bet it would be pretty cloudy but I gave him a couple of outs with broken glass bulbs which are a real possibility. Break a couple and you will end with up electricians having to replace them in future but if that happens more lights will have to fail before the boss asks for an electricain to replace them.

----------


## GraemeCook

And Smurf's original question has not been answered.

----------


## chrisp

> The power would be intermittently on (a predictable on/off cycle lasting over a minute) whilst bulbs are being changed - this is an industrial situation not domestic lighting. You could just wait for the other lamps to switch off and then promptly change the blown one if you wanted to do it without the socket being live.

   

> Underlying reason for the question is about safety and legal obligations. I'm not interested in starting any "industry protection" type debates here, I just want to know what "should" be happening in your opinion. What skills / qualifications does someone need to change a light bulb when doing so at work?

  Smurf, 
In my *opinion*, the underlying principle of "Duty of Care" is the the employer must provide a safe system of work as far as is reasonably practicable to protect the health and safety of staff.  This would include providing any necessary training, instruction and information. 
The issue then comes down to two aspects, training and procedures:  *Training:*
What is adequate training?  For changing ES bulbs, I would have thought that requiring an electrician is an overkill (excuse the pun  :Shock:  );  An "apprentice" is too undefined - are we talking about a first-day-on-the-job apprentice or a final-year?  There is aspects on what is adequate training: firstly, the need to ensure that the staff are adequately trained to ensure their safety; and secondly, should the worst happen, to legally prove that the employer took reasonable steps to ensure reason procedures and training were in place. 
I think adequate training would be to check with the manufacturer of the light bulbs and/or the light fittings and find out what their official procedures or recommendations are for changing the bulbs.  The person who is employed to change the bulbs should then be made aware of the official or recommend method and should be instructed to adhere to them.  Adequate training could be provided by the manufacturer of the bulbs or light fittings; or simply be provided by an electrician providing instruction on how to safely change a bulb.  This training would need to be documented in some way.  *Procedures:*
There is also the issue of the work place procedures as well.  *In my opinion, a work place procedure that relies on waiting until the bulb turns off for a minute or so  is grossly inadequate*  :No:  .   I can't imagine any reputable authority approving a procedure that could potentially have the bulb live while being changed.  The risks with light bulbs aren't just the electrical risk as often there is also a working at heights issue too.  A small "zap" can easily, and predictably, result in someone falling from a ladder.  I wouldn't like to be in court trying to justify the "wait until the lights go off" procedure after someone got injured! 
Again, in my opinion, I would expect the work place to provide some way of isolating the bulbs to be changed by perhaps isolating the lights in banks if they can't all be turn off at once for some reason.  I would hold this view regardless of the qualification of the person changing the bulbs - it should make no difference as to whether the bulb is changed by a fully qualified electrician or the office handyman, the same procedure should be followed.  After all the risks are the same to both. 
Maybe you should you should be more concerned about getting the correct procedures in place as soon as possible. 
Just to reiterate, the above is just my opinion.  Please feel free to take it or leave it as you see fit. 
Chris

----------


## Master Splinter

> Hi MS 
> Are you implying that sparkies are more expendable than the rest of us? 
> Cheers 
> Graeme

  
...only the ones that don't follow safe working practices...self-selecting, really...

----------


## Master Splinter

Actually, if the process could be done with a lightbulb changing stick thingy rather than ladder, I recon you'd be on a winner.  No fall from height danger, no hand contact with hot bulb, no risk of touching live terminals...easily doable by Mr/Ms Clueless.  (and if they can't hand/eye coordinate well enough to use it, they are probably not the sort of people who should be changing bulbs anyway!)

----------


## GraemeCook

> ...only the ones that don't follow safe working practices...self-selecting, really...

  Darwin at work, again.

----------


## GraemeCook

Smurf 
I think Chris has pretty well nailed it.    Beside the duty of care and liabilities issues, there is also the related matter of insurance coverage or lack there. 
Reading between the lines, I suspect that your problem is how to tell a client that his practices are sub-optimal without losing that client.   Perhaps you can nudge him in the right direction by asking if he has reviewed the adequacy of his insurance coverage recently. 
I have seen one actual example that occurred in a fairly large lawyers office.  A fluorescent tube started flickering and annoying everyone - a mid-range lawyer jumped on a desk and started replacing the tube.   The senior partner wlked in and learned counsel's outburst, almost verbatim, was ...   "What in the f***g hell do think your f***g doing.   Your f***g charge rate is $150 per hour, and we can f***g   hire an f***g electrician for f***g $50...."   Like most true lawyers he was thinking of the holy dollar. 
Cheers 
Graeme

----------


## Metung

I prefer the one about "How many Irishmen does it take to replace a light bulb?". Its a sad state of affairs when a topic like this can generate so much discussion. :Doh:

----------


## Smurf

Thanks everyone for the replies thus far.  :Smilie:  
A bit of background... 
Myself - I'm a licensed electrician so no problems with me changing the bulbs. I'm really just wanting to know what others think since I'm no lawyer. Given that I now have some supervisory responsibiltiy (though I'm not the manager), I want to sort this one out. 
It takes some time to actually get to the bulb and the non-electrical staff would often already be nearby, hence the reason they have historically changed most of them.  
As for switching them off, ideally that would be safest from an electrical perspective but without being too specific as to the industry and thus identifying the company, I'll just say that this is a 24/7/365 operation with the bulbs being an essential part of it - they are not there just for general illumination. Shutting the power off would be rather difficult in practice and takes a lot of planning to do without creating other problems. 
As for management, I must say they are taking a sensible approach now that an issue has been raised. But given that there are significant cost and practical issues involved, I can understand the view of not over-reacting and limiting the bulb changing to electricians unless there is actually a need to do so. Safety is obviously a major concern, but the place does need to keep running as well. 
What next? Some discussion on the issue today after I raised it and more planned tomorrow. Nobody seems certain of the correct answer to the question. Lots of theories, but nobody is sure...

----------


## Bullfright

> I prefer the one about "How many Irishmen does it take to replace a light bulb?". Its a sad state of affairs when a topic like this can generate so much discussion.

  I fully agree! 
During my younger days, I was the sole maintenance electrician in an aluminum extrusion and cable making plant and was constantly asked to change lamps.  Everytime I was asked, I would answer "Who changes your lamps at home?".  I considered lamp changing a complete waste of my skills.
I changed my first lamp when I was about six years old and even then, I had the good sense to not stick my little fingers in the socket.
Sorry to add to this dumb thread but I just couldn't keep quiet any longer.
Also sorry if I have offened any people who call an electrician to change their lamps in their homes.

----------


## Honorary Bloke

> As for switching them off, ideally that would be safest from an electrical perspective but without being too specific as to the industry and thus identifying the company, I'll just say that this is a 24/7/365 operation with the bulbs being an essential part of it - they are not there just for general illumination. Shutting the power off would be rather difficult in practice and takes a lot of planning to do without creating other problems.

  Ahh. . . sounds a bit like an order-picking operation in a large warehouse.  :Confused:  :Smilie:

----------


## Vernonv

> Ahh. . . sounds a bit like an order-picking operation in a large warehouse.

  ... or maybe traffic lights. :Biggrin:

----------


## chrisp

> Nobody seems certain of the correct answer to the question. Lots of theories, but nobody is sure...

  You could always ask http://www.workcover.tas.gov.au/ 
I notice that they have an advisory service.

----------


## nev25

> . Shutting the power off would be rather difficult in practice and takes a lot of planning to do without creating other problems.
>  ...

  Wouldn't Not shutting of supply be classified as working on Live appliances/Circuits which is Illegal

----------


## nev25

> Laws are made to accomadate the lowest common denominator.  
> Unless you are a vegatable, we all break some law during the day. 
> As with all things in life, one must apply common sense to ALL man made laws. Or rather use them as a guide........

  
Whats that got to do with the OP

----------


## watson

My only comment is.......
How many Administrators does it take to change a light bulb??

----------


## nev25

> My only comment is.......
> How many Administrators does it take to change a light bulb??

  Just one :Clap2:  
He holds the bulb and the world revolves around him  :Biggrin:

----------


## watson

:Fireworks:   
Correct!!

----------


## Smurf

In principle I can agree with those who say it's a silly notion to require an electrician to change a lamp. 
But try saying that in court when someone's been injured...

----------


## Blocklayer

The thing I can't figure out, is how come Australian manufactured products can't compete in the world market. 
If even a debate about changing a light bulb can get as far as this has, we are totally and completely doomed. 
:

----------


## watson

Its sort of like sodomising flies....it'll give us something to do.

----------


## Blocklayer

For the millions of people who have given their lives changing light bulbs, see below :  http://tinyurl.com/ap4r79  
:

----------


## elkangorito

Changing a lamp in your home is not the same as changing a lamp in a commercial or industrial installation. This particularly applies if the installation is deemed as 'critical'...must run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and any failure of equipment is likely to cause a significant loss of revenue. 
In a large installation (building), there will be many lighting circuits. Loss of light means loss of productivity as well as an increased safety hazard (insurance), hence domestic lighting is no comparison to this subject. 
As a former Facilities Manager, my previous employers have insisted that only licensed electricians change lamps (stops any Workcover arguments). I fully agree with this. The reasons why I agree are;
1] An electrician can identify any potential problems with the fitting.
2] An electrician may notice irregularities such as;
     a] flickering of a newly installed lamp (could be a supply problem).
     b] all the lamps on one (or several) circuit(s) seem to have a lower life than expected.
     c] the light may be inappropriate for the location. 
Lamps can be very useful things for businesses. Most electrical disturbances affect lamps very easily and as a result, they can indicate (to a trained eye) some very nasty problems...harmonics (very nasty) and/or an unstable electrical supply. A "maintenance man" may not notice these things.
In your own home, go ahead...change as many lamps as you wish but in a business, it's a different matter. In my opinion, leave it to the electricians. This covers all the bases and may even prove to save money.

----------


## nev25

> Its sort of like sodomising flies....it'll give us something to do.

  Youre a sick man Noel  :Biggrin:

----------


## Uncle Bob

> For the millions of people who have given their lives changing light bulbs, see below :  http://tinyurl.com/ap4r79  
> :

  I lolled  :Biggrin:

----------


## Bros

Must be a pretty ancient setup to be still relying on incandescent lamps.

----------


## Terrian

> My only comment is.......
> How many Administrators does it take to change a light bulb??

  none, they make the forum users do the mundane tasks like that

----------


## watson

:Fireworks:    
Also correct.
The whole point is, that its your forum.....make of it what you will.....and change your own bloody light globes.......... :Rotfl:

----------


## Smurf

> Must be a pretty ancient setup to be still relying on incandescent lamps.

  Without being too specific, incandescent lamps were still considered current technology for this application until about 15 years ago. And it was still halogen until very recently as suitable LED's became available. Any discharge lamp - fluoro, sodium etc, isn't suitable for the specific application. 
Long term plan is to go to LED's but economically and practically (the issues of shutting down to do the conversion) it only makes sense to do it gradually over some years.  
We are aware of others in the same industry who rushed into the LED option and it has been a disaster financially for them. The technology was close, but not quite right and it didn't work as well as expected. Basically the problem was a lot of failures and the light wavelength and intensity wasn't quite right either. Hence we've gone slowly on it, doing lots of testing and measurements before committing to anything (though the LED installation is certain to happen at some point). 
As for the original issue, the "official" answer from the autorities has come back and it's that anyone can change the lamps BUT under OH&S regulations there is a duty of care to ensure they can do the task safely. In practice that means they need to be made aware of the safety issues and assessed doing the task by someone deemed competent (eg an electrician).

----------


## Bros

> Any discharge lamp - fluoro, sodium etc, isn't suitable for the specific application.

  Put us out of our misery what is the application?

----------


## Uncle Bob

> Put us out of our misery what is the application?

  I dunno, but any application with high speed moving parts (eg lathes) should'nt use those types of lamps because of strobing .

----------


## Honorary Bloke

This thread is starting to make me tired. Either identify the application or give it over.  :Smilie:

----------


## Bros

> I dunno, but any application with high speed moving parts (eg lathes) should'nt use those types of lamps because of strobing .

  All the lathes and milling machines I have seen and used have a low voltage incandescent lamp (32v) on a hard flexible cable so it can be positioned anywhere over the job. All power stations where shafts revolve at synchronous speed have discharge lamps.

----------

