# Forum Home Renovation Flooring  T&G Solid Timber Overlay Flooring direct stick to Concrete - DIY Experiences??

## chuth77

Guys, 
Just wondering if anyone has attempted(successfully) to install overlay T&G solid timber direct to concrete... 
I've just been laying it down on yellow tongue and secret nailing. It looks and goes down beautifully, but I'd like to do it at our next place, on concrete though... I'm not that keen on laying down plyboard, or battens, because of the height issue... So would rather install it direct to concrete, but how the hell do you clamp the boards if your sticking them! 
If anyone's got hints tips etc I'd love to hear them before we make the decision to go that way!

----------


## glock40sw

G'day.
See one of my previous posts regarding Direct stick Overlay. 
It's not asr hard as it sounds.

----------


## chuth77

My other option, and prefered option is to stick 12mm ply down first, and then lay the boards... 
Does anyone know what the minimum length staples available are? Trade Tools have the shortest as 32mm, which won't work for me!!

----------


## That Floor Guy

I know 6000 series staples go from 30mm downwards, they won't give you much structural strength but they'll hold it good enough until your adhesive takes hold. 
I've direct stuck over concrete, as Glock said it's pretty easy (as long as your slabs nice and flat) we didn't have any issues clamping the boards, we just tapped them together while also using PVA in the groove.

----------


## Larry McCully

Hasnt anybody heard of a micky pin,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,It is the most succesfull method of fastening a direct stuck board down whilst it is curing.

----------


## chuth77

What is a micky pin then? How does it work? What does it look like? Is it a permanent or temporary thing? Do you have a photo? Where can you buy them?

----------


## glock40sw

Larry.
The blokes over in the west use a 2.5mm masonry bit and pin with 3mmx25mm ramset pins.
Seems to work great for them.

----------


## Vernonv

Mickey Pin - http://www.powers.com.au/products/focus.aspx?bgid=153

----------


## Gaza

we use a harden steel nail fired from a air gun. or handnail in little concrete nails.

----------


## Larry McCully

Gaza wins the prize. A micky pin is a 65mm concrete nail from maxims fasteners. they are purchased at Bunnings for about 23 dollars per kilo. As you clamp up the boards you drive one of these pins through a 200mm long offcut piece of timber first then drive that into the floor into the concrete. the piece of off cut acts as a spacer and also displaces the load over a greater area. My job is usually cutting up the ofcutts and predrilling a hole through the middle of it so the nail wont split it as you drive it into the T/G. The next day , all you do is yank out the nail and everything is stuck just the way you want it.  
TA DAR

----------


## Larry McCully

> Mickey Pin - http://www.powers.com.au/products/focus.aspx?bgid=153

  Good call on the link, but i found them to be very expensive , cause you use a lot doing a decient size floor. The hardened fluted shank flathead nail from bunnings are cheap and do the trick well. They are in a red plastic box  http://www.macsim.com.au/Products/Anchoring/nails.php

----------


## chuth77

> As you clamp up the boards you drive one of these pins through a 200mm long offcut piece of timber first then drive that into the floor into the concrete. the piece of off cut acts as a spacer and also displaces the load over a greater area. My job is usually cutting up the ofcutts and predrilling a hole through the middle of it so the nail wont split it as you drive it into the T/G. The next day , all you do is yank out the nail and everything is stuck just the way you want it. 
> TA DAR

  I'm a little lost by the description... Does the 200mm offcut go on the direct concrete and then used to cramp the boards, or is it nailed on top ofthe T&G...

----------


## fubar

nailed on top

----------


## chuth77

Thanks Fubar, I thought that was the case, just the description is a little confusing. 
Talking about an offcut being a spacer, its more of a packer, and with mention of pulling out the nail, but no mention of the offcut I was even more confused trying to figure out where the offcut fit into it all! 
I take it also that you've gotta predrill your T&G floorboards for the mickey pin! 
Are they any cramps with like joist cramps, you can affix to the floor "with the likes of a mickey pin" and then screw jack the boards tight, or is the timber wedge the best way to go?

----------


## glock40sw

Wedge.

----------


## Larry McCully

HI trev, You are correct, the wedge is the best way, I also rercon the nobow would be good as well, but at 5000 bucks each and you will need at least 3 to do a fast run, you need to be doing a lot of direct stick install to justify the cost. So timber wedges are a good alternitive.  
Here is the proceedure for installing direct stick flooring. .....
Depending on the width of the board.. lets say you are using 85mm wide boards.Then measure 10 boards out from your starting point, thats 850mm. (With any install project, max section is about 800 mm, even if you are using wide board, calculate the amount of boards to only have about 800mm across, It is difficult to reach across further than that when installing the boards, You will get the idea as you read on)
After securing your first board(starter board) against the vertical surface (wall) Making sure that you have left a joint movement gap (expansion Joint) and also use amall spacer blocks the width of the expansion joint so that it wont close up when you clamp up the first row. These small spacer blockes are removed from within the expansion gap after that first ten boards (850mm) has been pinned. 
Now once that starter board and all the other details are taken care of, you are ready to start installing the rest of the room. From the first board measure out across the floor 850mm from both ends and flick a chaulk line to give you a parralele point from that first board. Deposit on to the floor a big blob of glue. Make sure it is a recomended adhesive for the project. (Bostik ultraset, Sika T545, liquid nails direct sticK are a few that work well. ) Buy the time you do yor first run , you should have a indication of how muc glue you will need per run. Then using a *3mm V notched trowl* , maintain a 100% coverage from the edge of the first board to exactly the chalk line. Dont go over the line at all or it becomes messy when you start clamping. Also develop good trowl teckneek. Keep the trowl vertical and it needs to leave only strips of glue from the groves in the trowl. Some installers paint the glue on , thinking that if they put heaps on it will glue better. This is incorrect. The trowl if used correctly will leave a 3mm peak only from the grove. To much glue will cause it to vacumm the board to the concrete to much and it will also cause the glue to build up to much in between each board as you are clamping them together, causing a packing between each board , and you will end up with a gappy floor. So only apply enough glue left behind from the trowl. ( Bostik have the best trowl for the job, Its a 6mm v notch But the tips are Flat and not pointed and are 6mm apart. This trowl is the best trowl to use ever. It will give you a 6mm peak with the peaks 6mm apart. It will give you a ratio of 1-1.2 m2 coverage per litre of glue. ) Avail from Alex Lind floorsanding suppliers in sydney and other companies. 
OK back to the job......Once you have the glue down, start setting in place theboards, starting from the starter board first. Reach over the glue and place your boards on to the glued surface, mantaining a close fit between each board but exact wall to wall fit.After a short while you will start to reach your glue line. Dont kneel in the glue, you wife wont like it. So now you have reached the glue line keep going untill you have placed down ten rows, even if you are a little over the line, that does not matter. Now you got to wedge them up. I use a series of wedges about 500mm apart from each other and i use HWD joist material for this task. Anything softer will continuaslly split as you apply the force to the wedge. I then have also a series of *50*mm thick HWD stop blocks with a 12 mm hole drilled through the center. The stop block is the block that you will wedge against of to push up the boards. _Now listen carefully. I will go slow on this one, but once you have the idea , it is simple._ My clamping device consists of .2 x 300mm long x 50mm thick HWD wedges(0mm at the point and 50-70mm at the other end) , 1 x stop block (with 12 mm hole in center) , one peace of 12mm concrete reinforcment bar, and a piece of pine stud or other material about 30mm x30mm or simular 200mm long or thereabouts. You will require enough of these wedge compnnents to do a contuise line across the floor about 500mm apart. It seems like a lot of work, but let me say, once you have the components made up and all of them are avail from most building sites that you are on. If you are at home, go buy the things you need from timber merchants. 
Step 1 to clamp your floor.....Place the 200mm pine length against the last board , then get your stop block and place it about 10mm away from that pine, Using a 12mm masinory bit, drill a hole into the concrete about 60mm deep, Drill through the predrill hole in the block, then insert the reobar into the hole. This is a secure point to wedge of, (This will take about 2minutes to do) then with your wedge facing point to point and simutanisly , tap the wedges together between the stop block and the pine protector piece.as you tap up the wedges, the floor at that location will start to clamp up and tighten. as the boards get snug but not tight, move on to the next wedge and repeat the process, then move along again repeating the same process untill the whole run is snug. Then at this point ,you are able to then work on top of the floor closing any end matches and adjusting ends at the wall. Once you are happy with the fit , start tapinpping up the wedges untill the whole 10 boards are firm, do not keep wedging untill the boards start to bellow up.This wedge system is verry strong and will easly cause a over tighten ogf the boards. You want a tight fit only. Anything more is no good. Some installers think that if they overtighten the row causing it to bellow out, they then stand on it to flatten it out and pin it. Well the preasure build up will cause failure to the floor. Tight is good. Dont over kill.
Once the floor is wedged, get some 200mm long ofcuts of flooring with a predrilled 2mm hole it(spacer) and drive your concrete *micky pin* nail through the spacer through the flooring into the concrete, Starting along the last board so that when you take the wedges out, it wont spring back. Then using the same pinning process, pin at staggard locations along the ajasent rows up to 1mt apart and every 3rd to 5th board. So when you look back over the finished install of that section you should see the last board secured along ist length and behind it on the other board you will see staggared pinned down boards. When the boards are all pinned down, remove the wedges and place them ahead of your workhead past the next 850mm line. Then Measure out 850mm , snap a chalk line , glue up, install boards, wedge up, tighten up, pin down, Then do it again and again untill you are finished.After a while you will get faster and faster. But at the end , you will have a correctly installed floating floor. I use this system exclusivly and have taught may installer this method. I have completed 2800m2 of direct flooring this way and had no defects. GO FOR IT AND HAVE FUN...

----------


## Vernonv

Great stuff Larry. I've looked at heaps of direct stick timber flooring install info and don't think I've ever found something quite so informative. 
Have a greenie ... :2thumbsup:

----------


## Larry McCully

Thanks for the kind words, My goal is to bring high quality into the industry, even if i have to share the knowledge out so others can gain from it. This system works great with two installers working as a team. While one is glueing the other is setting up boards, then when the glue guy is finished he then helps with setting the boards, when all that is done one drills along while the other sets up and starts to clamp up. When that is done both adjust the floor and start pinning down. Then once that is done one guy starts on the next run while the other guy dismantles the wedging system. SO and So on....................... Works well. You should be able to do at least 40-70 m2 per day with good runs at a steady pace. Hallways will slow you down. .

----------


## the controller

Hi everyone,I want to inform you that the nobow has now been totally redesigned,checkout the website www.nobow.com.au.  
The price is around $2300 +GST

----------


## chuth77

> Hi everyone,I want to inform you that the nobow has now been totally redesigned,checkout the website www.nobow.com.au. 
> The price is around $2300 +GST

  Hmmm, looks like a secret nailer to me... at 10 times the price too!

----------


## Larry McCully

> Hi everyone,I want to inform you that the nobow has now been totally redesigned,checkout the website www.nobow.com.au. 
> The price is around $2300 +GST

  Good job paul, Now you are talking, Big improvement, I defenetly will be calling you soon. I like it.

----------


## Dusty

Great effort, with the posts there Larry. 
The more you help people the better the industry becomes over time. 
Keep up the great work.

----------


## Gaza

the new no bow looks better, 
but if the timber is bowed to the point where a tool like this is rquired to nail it off then the floor board is outside of the toloeances set out in the tmber milling standards which states the max allowableb bow / spring in a board. 
therefore as the installer if use the timber that is in such a condition you would be liable for failure of the floor, if the board is rejected then the suppiler has to exchange it for timber that meets the standrad.

----------


## Gaza

> (Bostik ultraset, Sika T545, liquid nails direct sticK are a few that work well. ) Buy the time you do yor first run , you should have a indication of how muc glue you will need per run. Then using a *3mm V notched trowl* , maintain a 100% coverage from the edge of the first board to exactly the chalk line. Dont go over the line at all or it becomes messy when you start clamping. Also

  When using sellys direct stick adhesive you should not be using a 3mm v notch trowel, sellys suppiles a trowel in every box it is a differnt profie to suit the glues properties. 
Ultraset, skia, mapeil etc is a 3mm v. 
a liquid barrier from the glue manufacter should be applied prior to laying flooring if being direct stuck over a concrete slab.

----------


## Gaza

here is a NZ company installing a direct stick floor over concrete slab using the sellys system.  http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6HuSmsFjX8

----------


## glock40sw

Selleys direct stick is applied over in the west with a 6x6mm notched trowel with the notches at 25mm centres.

----------


## Larry McCully

I just had a look at the youtube video. I was interested in the 6mm trowl and the concrete sealer. I noticed that they filled the floor after the level sanding. I thought there where going to be a lot of gapping , because it shows them just using a mallet to get a snug fit and not a full secure clamping of the boards. I have never had to fill any of our floors after installation. I also have been told that NZ brush ther coating on in the way shown on the video, now that i have seen it , i recon i like our way best, Standing up using a mohair roller. Same result without the broken back. I had a Maori working for me who used to use that coating method back in NZ, but converted as soon as he came to AUS. All sweet my nz cuzzies. Kia Ora

----------


## Gaza

> I just had a look at the youtube video. I was interested in the 6mm trowl and the concrete sealer. I noticed that they filled the floor after the level sanding.

  if you read borals silmwood instulation manual it says floors must be "flood filled" this is the same method used for filling parquetry. 
in the old days basecoat (plastering setting compund0 was used coloured with oxide these days timbermate thinned down does a nicer job, bona also makes mix and fill which is where sanding dust is mixed up with a special liquid.  not just normal PVA. 
A bar appliactor works great with water based coatngs and some oils.

----------


## Gaza

> Selleys direct stick is applied over in the west with a 6x6mm notched trowel with the notches at 25mm centres.

  
That is one supplied by selleys, 
just a note selleys makes two adhesives one for parqutetry and one for boards.

----------


## Larry McCully

Geeeze Garry , i would not be game to do a floor and leave gaps that need filling. I never have and never will, even direct stick. I recon that if the installer left any gapping that needed flood filling, then he must not be an effective. I recon that that is a cop out if it is in the manual.

----------


## Gaza

dont why it is in there but the boral technical rep told me, maybe its there get out of jail free card for poor installations. 
my guys no that no gap is ok, the only gap that are ok are is expasion and they must be neat and even in size.

----------


## Larry McCully

I agree. And as well i think it pertains to engineered flooring and not standard 19mm or overlays. Can you emagine what the floor would look like if 19mm with a bit of bow in would look like.. Far out..grusome

----------


## glock40sw

I'd be a lot happier if it were only you blokes laying my T&G in Sydney :2thumbsup: , Rather than the cowboys that are doing it lately :Yikes2:  :No:

----------


## Larry McCully

Thanks man, that is cool hearing something like that from a highly respected manufacturer.

----------

