# Forum More Stuff At the end of the day  Which renovations offer the best return when you sell?

## justonething

Next door neighbor is selling their house. About 2 to 3 months ago, we saw that there were a lot of tradesmen around, a whole kitchen being thrown out on the side walk. I'd say they did a lot of work.  According the domain.com.au http://www.domain.com.au/advice/whic...160223-gn1awa/
 Some renos will get more return than others. What's your view?

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## Marc

A bit of a ... how long is a piece of string ... but if you want an opinion, Kitchen, Bathroom, Decking, Garden, Painting are the essentials. The rest, and there is a lot of rest, depends on each house. 
The opinion of real estate agents is in my view, the opinion of a quack. 
"The renovation that gets the best return" would be one that uses the least money and cons the buyer into paying a lot, so the best return will come from a dodgy job properly covered with putty and paint.

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## Pulse

I'd say repairing everything first then painting, gardening, decking, new light switches and powerpoints and door hardware. 
Cosmetic bathroom and kitchen is also good. 
Selling houses Australia on fox is pretty much a summary.    
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## Marc

From the many atrocious renovation TV programs past and present I think Selling Houses Australia is the only one I enjoy.

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## Pulse

agreed, one of the few thing I record, and Holmes on homes  
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## justonething

Don't own fox. what's the show about?

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## Marc

Holmes on homes is good but the difference in the building code between Canada and Australia is abysmal. Another observation is the outrageously bad building practices they show.  
Selling houses australia is about a dude, a landscaper and an interior decorator helping those who are unable to sell their house. 
No fluff and plenty of good advice and work hands on.

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## commodorenut

So many variables and each situation is unique. 
If everything else is great, apart from the kitchen, then you'd do that. 
If you have the potential for water or bush views and you're on a sloping block, then spending money on an elevated deck to appreciate them will earn far more than the same money spent in a bathroom.

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## Black Cat

Personally I would go for clean, tidy and well-maintained. Spending big bucks on a bathroom and kitchen that suits your taste is futile. The prospective buyer is unlikely to share your taste. Unless the wet areas date back to the 1950s then it is a waste of money that is unlikely to be recovered in terms of increased value.

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## toooldforthis

> Which renovations offer the best return when you sell?

  the ones where you don't put a price on your time & labour. 
only to be outdone by the ones that don't include transaction or holding costs.

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## METRIX

> Personally I would go for clean, tidy and well-maintained. Spending big bucks on a bathroom and kitchen that suits your taste is futile. The prospective buyer is unlikely to share your taste. Unless the wet areas date back to the 1950s then it is a waste of money that is unlikely to be recovered in terms of increased value.

  If your doing up to sell, you don't do these rooms to suit your taste, rather to suit everyone's taste.
It's not a waste of money doing up a bathroom or kitchen, every house I have had I do them all plus the laundry, these are one of the main parts which ensured top dollar was paid.

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## commodorenut

Exactly - keep it plain/neutral & let them choose their own accessories/towels to colour it.

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## OBBob

We sold the last place not that long ago (gee, actually it was a year and half now ... eek) ... anyway, this time we thought 'what's the harm, we'll let them send the interior designer around for some tips'. Very interesting how they set it up to feel bigger, look magazine-ish and appeal to a whole range of groups. Cheap cafe pictures on the wall, TV in a spot that is completely unusable but somehow looks amazing. It was not a real estate agent, rather a consultant they bring in ... a black art and well worth the free service if the agent offers it (IMHO).

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## Marc

> If you're doing up to sell, you don't do these rooms to suit your taste, rather to suit everyone's taste.
> It's not a waste of money doing up a bathroom or kitchen, every house I have had I do them all plus the laundry, these are one of the main parts which ensured top dollar was paid.

  I agree, kitchen and bathroom are the number one starting point for any renovation. And so is painting and landscaping.
Of course you go with mainstream better than average and not with your particular taste ... unless your taste is mainstream ... mm ... how do you define mainstream taste? 
Well, don't paint the walls red and avoid nude paintings or sculptures to start with.  
However the question in the original post is not that easy to answer. Leaving aside the vast possible scenarios, best return when you sell implies minimal investment to maximise return. Yet minimal investment assumes an ignorant buyer that does not know the difference between quality and a quick once over.  On the other hand over capitalising is a notorious profit killer. 
Furthermore if you want to sell fast, perhaps doing nothing and selling to a potential investor that wants the property original to do his own renovation is the way to go.
I for once have never ever bought a property that had been renovated in the last 20 years, and I have bought and sold more than my fingers and toes added up. 
Renovating to maximise return will need to be tailored to a) the property, b) the suburb c) the potential buyers d) the market at that point in time e) the state of the economy ... and a number of other factors. Hardly a question that can be answered with a few sentences.

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## Marc

> We sold the last place not that long ago (gee, actually it was a year and half now ... eek) ... anyway, this time we thought 'what's the harm, we'll let them send the interior designer around for some tips'. Very interesting how they set it up to feel bigger, look magazine-ish and appeal to a whole range of groups. Cheap cafe pictures on the wall, TV in a spot that is completely unusable but somehow looks amazing. It was not a real estate agent, rather a consultant they bring in ... a black art and well worth the free service if the agent offers it (IMHO).

  Very true, worth every penny. It is very difficult to see past the professional presentation for the buyer. Sometimes I think, don't they see that they are buying the house empty and not with all those knick knack?

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## toooldforthis

> If your doing up to sell, you don't do these rooms to suit your taste, rather to suit everyone's taste.
> It's not a waste of money doing up a bathroom or kitchen, every house I have had I do them all plus the laundry, these are one of the main parts which ensured top dollar was paid.

  fair enough, which is why I would probably never buy one of your places  :Biggrin:  no offence. 
I'm with *black cat* I prefer original or something that needs doing, unless it was done to my taste which would be rare.
then again I am in Perth and quite frankly mainstream taste is pretty conservative and all same-same especially when it comes to bathrooms and kitchens.
I think it was here in Perth in the 80's where you couldn't buy or sell a house unless it had a formal dining room - a room that no one used. People wouldn't buy a house without one cause they were worried about resale. 
my taste is a bit eclectic but having said that the houses I have bought to renovate and live in were by and large ones no one else wanted and they all sold in two weeks when it came time for me to move on. Did I optimise my return? maybe not - I am sure the potential buyers didn't see the extra double power points that a house flipper would not have bothered with, but I am sure the buyer did appreciate them after they moved in.

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## toooldforthis

> .... 
> Renovating to maximise return will need to be tailored to a) the property, b) the suburb c) the potential buyers d) the market at that point in time e) the state of the economy ... and a number of other factors. Hardly a question that can be answered with a few sentences.

  yep. pretty much. one formula doesn't fit all.
When it came time to sell a house I renovated and lived in for 7 years I got a few local agents through for a valuation. One was quite a bit lower so I asked why. She hummed and awwwed for a bit but then it came out. The area had a large Jewish population, of which she was one (and so probably catered to that market mostly) and they all wanted a formal dining. Still sold in 2 weeks tho. With a different agent. And for the higher price.

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## METRIX

> fair enough, which is why I would probably never buy one of your places  no offence.
>  .

  No offence taken, and your correct I am not targeting you, I am after the buyer who does not have the time / know how, or simply cannot be be bothered to do all the dirty jobs, such as bathrooms, kitchens, laundries, decks, etc.
This person just wants to move in and have everything new and working from day one, they don't have to hassle around with tradesman and the inconvenience of ripping out a kitchen or bathroom, there is plenty of this person where I do my houses. 
The trick is to make it appealing to as many people as possible but not make it boring, don't make it look cheap by using cheap components (you can tell these from good quality) but also don't go crazy and spend too much, the money needs to be spread out over the entire house, but you do need to spend money on quality fittings in kitchens and bathrooms, such as taps, tiles, and most importantly attention to detail, as people will pickup dodgy work during inspections. 
Below is the current place I am doing up, this kitchen has had very positive feedback from everyone who has seen it, it's nothing out of the ordinary, but is functional, spacious and has quality components, one thing was to use the features of the house and fit LED lighting into them, so these become an asset, this one is almost finished, just a few panels missing, these can wait until I have time to do them.

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## phild01

What material is the black splashback? Looks similar to what I did with black granite.

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## METRIX

> What material is the black splashback? Looks similar to what I did with black granite.

  These are Spanish handmade extended subway tiles 300x75, they are a black / grey / silver depending on the light. 
Because they are handmade, they have brush marks through the glaze which brings some texture into the room, I dislike glass splash back (unless it's mirror) I think these are too clinical looking and lack personality, 
I especially dislike the white which is not on Starphire glass so you have that greenish tinge to it, most people pick this because it's the cheapest.

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## phild01

Yes, I got made a small section of glass done for under the rangehood.  The colour I chose was a metallic gunmetal.  Could not bear to use it and despite the darker colour, the green tinge was horrible and too overpowering.
The tiles look good Metrix.

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## Marc

The toaster is too close to the tap ...  :Smilie:

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## piscean

> We sold the last place not that long ago (gee, actually it was a year and half now ... eek) ... anyway, this time we thought 'what's the harm, we'll let them send the interior designer around for some tips'. Very interesting how they set it up to feel bigger, look magazine-ish and appeal to a whole range of groups. Cheap cafe pictures on the wall, TV in a spot that is completely unusable but somehow looks amazing. It was not a real estate agent, rather a consultant they bring in ... a black art and well worth the free service if the agent offers it (IMHO).

  I think this type of thing is underrated over here. Our neighbours sold their house about a year ago, house was less than 15 years old so not much to do to it, but they moved out and hired a staging company to furnish it. It sold in about a month and I think the staging had a lot to do with it. An empty house is hard to imagine with furniture, a cluttered house with the owners nick nacks is usually going to bring it down. Even though it's all for show, I think it does present the house at it's best when you get the pros in, and the buyers get to see how it "could look".

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## Spottiswoode

> I think this type of thing is underrated over here. Our neighbours sold their house about a year ago, house was less than 15 years old so not much to do to it, but they moved out and hired a staging company to furnish it. It sold in about a month and I think the staging had a lot to do with it. An empty house is hard to imagine with furniture, a cluttered house with the owners nick nacks is usually going to bring it down. Even though it's all for show, I think it does present the house at it's best when you get the pros in, and the buyers get to see how it "could look".

  We got the agent in when time to sell our house. Didn't bother with the 'staging' thing, but did take all our excess carp to a storage unit, moved a couple of items of furniture to his recommendation. Made the place look more spacious and presentable. Worked a treat, made me think about staying (for a very short moment). House sold, with lots of positive comments. Whilst I generally could see past th clutter in houses we inspected, it was certainly more pleasant visitng those that had been styled, or at least de-cluttered. Once we were ready to sell I touched up all the little bits, paint here or there, new silicon in the somewhat dated bathrooms, pruned and weeded, pressure cleaned the pavers. It did have a new kitchen, floating floors over the terracotta tiles and a patio cover that we put in for our own benefit before we decided to sell. Bathrooms and laundry were tiled in all their 90s glory and weren't worth changing just for sale. Could have squared out the archways too, but wasn't worth the effort. 
As for the original question. Updating paintwork is the easiest renovation, followed by garden tidy. Then you are up for more dollars and it really depends on the property, the market, the buyers etc if you are going to get your money back.

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## toooldforthis

> The toaster is too close to the tap ...

  at least he has a window over the sink  :Smilie:

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## OBBob

> ... made me think about staying (for a very short moment).

  Ha ha... went through this phase when we got the professional photos back!

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## burraboy

The houses that I have renovated have all had a common feature, poorly done add-ons/renovations that did not suit the original structure.  For a start, getting rid of those things really cleans up the appearance and presentation for resale.  Hard to do, but if you are looking to maximise your return, make the project your home address, no CGT.

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## Black Cat

> If your doing up to sell, you don't do these rooms to suit your taste, rather to suit everyone's taste.
> It's not a waste of money doing up a bathroom or kitchen, every house I have had I do them all plus the laundry, these are one of the main parts which ensured top dollar was paid.

   Unfortunately 'everyone's taste' seems to involve hip baths, glossy tiles, fancy fittings. I will stick with my current position - it has worked for me on the several houses I have bought and sold. I have been turned right off houses with new kitchens or bathrooms that do not suit me - for the obvious reason that throwing out a new fitout would repel my sense of rightness, but living with the status quo would be unacceptable.  It's important not to generalise too much about buyers - they are as varied in their expectations as in any other aspect of human endeavour.

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## METRIX

> at least he has a window over the sink

  The window over the sink thing drives me crazy, IMO that went out the door when the dishwasher was invented, but it still hangs around to this day, the last 3 kitchens I have done, did not have the sink under the window, and nobody said anything about it. 
Although technically this one does, you just can't see directly out of it.  :Biggrin:

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## piscean

> The window over the sink thing drives me crazy, IMO that went out the door when the dishwasher was invented,

  really? I always think it looks so weird not to have a window over the sink. I do have a dishwasher but I still do some pots and pans by hand since they take up so much dishwasher space, and I also do my cooking prep at the sink. Not having a window to look out would feel like I was in a labour camp or something (there has to be some benefit to working at the sink and staring at a wall would drive me nuts). Not saying I'm in step with the times but it would be a big issue for me, and something that would really turn me off buying a house so it's strange to hear it's "out"

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## joynz

I prefer a sink with a window.   
However, better a sink without a window than the popular sink on an island bench, 'borrowing' the living room windows/doors but being a mess collector.

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## Marc

> The window over the sink thing drives me crazy, IMO that went out the door when the dishwasher was invented, but it still hangs around to this day, the last 3 kitchens I have done, did not have the sink under the window, and nobody said anything about it. 
> Although technically this one does, you just can't see directly out of it.

  Fit a small flat screen over the sink, with ever changing pictures from "beautiful destinations" in instagram.

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## METRIX

> really? I always think it looks so weird not to have a window over the sink. I do have a dishwasher but I still do some pots and pans by hand since they take up so much dishwasher space, and I also do my cooking prep at the sink. Not having a window to look out would feel like I was in a labour camp or something (there has to be some benefit to working at the sink and staring at a wall would drive me nuts). Not saying I'm in step with the times but it would be a big issue for me, and something that would really turn me off buying a house so it's strange to hear it's "out"

  Generally if I'm doing something in the sink, I'm looking at the thing in the sink, not daydreaming out the window.
If that drives you nuts and you have a big issue with this, maybe you need to speak to someone about it,  :Biggrin:   :Tongue:   :Biggrin:  
Sounds like your spending far to much time in front of the sink, you need to get out more.  :Biggrin:   :Tongue:   :Biggrin:

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## piscean

> Generally if I'm doing something in the sink, I'm looking at the thing in the sink, not daydreaming out the window.
> If that drives you nuts and you have a big issue with this, maybe you need to speak to someone about it,    
> Sounds like your spending far to much time in front of the sink, you need to get out more.

  That was a bit harsh wasn't it? I like to have a window to look out of, and yeah, I often cook from scratch so can spend a bit of time doing prep at the sink, no need to get snarky about it. I'm actually a pretty good cook. I just wouldn't buy a house that had no window over the sink is all, it's important to me. If I didn't have a window to look out I probably would never get near the sink and would have to start living on take aways   :Eek:  
I didn't insult you by saying your renovation style sucks, I just commented that a particular element of it is not something I personally would like. If you have to take offense at that then maybe you're the one who should see someone about it.  :2thumbsup:

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## METRIX

> That was a bit harsh wasn't it? I like to have a window to look out of, and yeah, I often cook from scratch so can spend a bit of time doing prep at the sink, no need to get snarky about it. I'm actually a pretty good cook. I just wouldn't buy a house that had no window over the sink is all, it's important to me. If I didn't have a window to look out I probably would never get near the sink and would have to start living on take aways   
> I didn't insult you by saying your renovation style sucks, I just commented that a particular element of it is not something I personally would like. If you have to take offense at that then maybe you're the one who should see someone about it.

  WOW, If you notice there are smiles after what I said, this means funny, ie making a joke about what I'm saying, I did put six of them there just to be sure, it's called humour or tongue in cheek. 
I never said you insulted me or my renovation style, lighten up and don't take things so literal, forums are the same as life, give out information and have a few laughs along the way, sorry if you feel I insulted you by what you thought you read, it was not intended that way.

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## Marc

I don't see any insults from either of you, just comments about window over a sink and a joke about the use of the window or the sink? 
Participating in a forum implies the capacity to take a few jokes, criticism, and mis interpretations due to the limitation of the written word, without the benefit of the voice inflection and face expression something the smiles attempt to compensate with some success.  
I don't know piscean much but know metrix enough to know he wouldn't offend let alone insult and is known to make a few jokes here and there. 
No need to get all worked up over not much.

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## OBBob

You'd all better be careful or you'll end up in my 'too far off topic' thread.  :Doh:

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## METRIX

> You'd all better be careful or you'll end up in my 'too far off topic' thread.

  I noticed PP is on that one quite a bit, I haven't made it there yet, I will keep trying  :Biggrin:

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## toooldforthis

back on topic, sort of. 
here's one for you to do the sums on.
bought Oct 2015 for $501k
just put on market asking $649k+
how much do they need to break even?  166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 - House for Sale #122259726 - realestate.com.au   Sold Price for 166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 
this one sold pretty quick for $529k. same street.  Sold Price for 178 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076

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## METRIX

> back on topic, sort of. 
> here's one for you to do the sums on.
> bought Oct 2015 for $501k
> just put on market asking $649k+
> how much do they need to break even?  166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 - House for Sale #122259726 - realestate.com.au   Sold Price for 166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 
> this one sold pretty quick for $529k. same street.  Sold Price for 178 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076

  Wow, looking at those prices I think they could go backwards but lets see. 
$501K purchase price
$21K stamp duty
$1.5k for solicitor / building inspection etc 
Lets say it cost them $523.500 raw cost to get into it.
What is it, 3 bed 1 bath, 1 car 1200 sq block  
Looking at the before and after photos they have spent up big, new landscaping, new paved driveway,removing of walls in the kitchen, replacing of aluminium windows to timber stained type, new electrics, new floating floor,new bathroom,  new laundry, new garage door, new pergola and entertaining area out back, the list goes on and on and on, unless things in Perth are very cheap and labour cost nothing I would estimate they have spent around 150K - 180K. 
Now it's a 3 bed 1 bath, 2 car, so they have gained a car space, not sure where from as there are no floor plans for either sale. 
So lets say they are now committed to around $673K - 703K, add agents selling fees of 2%  it's still a 3 bed 1 bath house, I would estimate they might be lucky to get $720 - $750k, lets say they get $750k add 15K for agents fees, 1.5k solicitor that takes their spend close to 720K, sell for 750k IMO NOT WORTH THE EFFORT. 
For that amount of work and outlay I would want to see a clear $100K - $150K minimum, its taken them around 4 moths to do it, and they would have been working 24/7 to do it in that time, do this 3 times a year they might make 90K, there is a lot easier ways to make that sort of money, if they turn these over every 4 months, they will get hit with additional taxes because it's a business now, not a one off sale of primary residence. 
Can't really compare recent sales prices an most have price withheld, but this one unrenovated just went for $599k 5bed, 3 bath 2 car, on 2600 sqm perfectly fine as it is, but a little reno will make this a much better house that the one selling. Sold Price for 1 Gray Road Gooseberry Hill WA 6076

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## phild01

That house is tiny compared to the later, same street, un-renovated house.  I would value that extra space far more highly than the renovated pokey kitchen/bathroom.

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## METRIX

> That house is tiny compared to the later, same street, un-renovated house.  I would value that extra space far more highly than the renovated pokey kitchen/bathroom.

  Agree, internal living space always over rules renovated. 
Do you think Im being generous with their estimated sale price ?

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## phild01

Maybe I am wrong, but I reckon the improvements would be way less cost wise, though I didn't notice a wall was moved or reworked windows,  that wouldn't  be cheap.  These types of photos always make things look twice as big as what they actually are!
The kitchen is cheap (hate the nasty pressed metal), maybe Ikea and nothing to the bathroom reno, it being so small.

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## toooldforthis

> Agree, internal living space always over rules renovated. 
> Do you think Im being generous with their estimated sale price ?

  yes - you are saying   

> So lets say they are now committed to around $673K - 703K, add agents selling fees of 2%  it's still a 3 bed 1 bath house, I would estimate they might be lucky to get $720 - $750k, lets say they get $750k add 15K for agents fees, 1.5k solicitor that takes their spend close to 720K, sell for 750k IMO NOT WORTH THE EFFORT.

  they are asking $649k +
which they won't get. 
they did get it for a pretty good price at the time. didn't overpay. and they say you make your money when you buy not sell  :Smilie: 
I have an email alert and I didn't even see it come through. so not sure what happened there - might have been an off market sale. 
there is no extra car parking - just slack agent.
I haven't had a close look yet and done any sums but I thought it was jarrah boards refinished, not floaters, and garage door original. 
but I agree with your overall thinking.

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## toooldforthis

did some pretty generous sums:  purchase  $        501,000  stamp duty  $          19,000  settlement agent  $            1,500  sundry purchase costs (termite inspection etc)  $                500  holding/opportunity costs on $522k at, say, 3%  $          15,660  refinish jarrah floors  $            4,000  painting  $            4,000  electrical/lighting  $            4,000  gas connections  $            1,000  new fixtures (fireplace etc)  $            2,000  new kitchen (relocated)  $            8,500  new bathroom  $            7,000  new laundry  $            2,500  internal restructures  $            3,000     paint? windows/leadlights  $            3,000  landscaping (new driveway, pergola, paving, lawn ...)  $          15,000     sales commission  $          15,000  settlement agent  $            1,500   * $        608,160*      they didn't even take out the crappy in wall a/c in the lounge !  and labour costs in Perth are exorbitant   but hey, they will say paid $501k sold for $625k!! woo hoo!!

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## Marc

The property business is not an easy one particularly because 95% of those in it own one investment property and play by ear. 
It is even worst with the live in and renovate, because unless you are a professional, you will invariably overcapitalise because after all you do it for yourself ... or you think you do anyway, or you wife thinks so ...  :Smilie: 
Nothing wrong with it of course but at the end when you want to sell you end up with a lot of work that paid very little.  
Unless you have a building company that you can use in the down season to do up your own investments to keep the tradesman busy, the reality is that you don't make much money by doing up properties, you make the money when you buy, not when you sell, and you make money if your investment makes money and you can keep it for the rent to pay off the mortgage ... and not if it loses money...(let's not use the gear expressions please) rather elemental mathematics really.  
If you factor in all the cost of buying keeping and selling a property that makes a loss, including cost of opportunity, the various taxes, the various degrees of aggravation and anxiety with tenants, deliberate and accidental damage, wear and tear and capital gain tax at the end, you will find that it is not such a brilliant business. Done in larger numbers, over ten properties, there is some economy of scale if you find the right real estate agent, solicitor and tradesman and have the knack for it.  
The only reason people get into money losing investment properties in such large numbers as one off owners is because of a misconception that "the taxman pays for it". 
The property that made me the most money was two blocks of flat I bought in Mt Isa at the time everyone was scared the mine was going to close. Bought them for a song, had them rented at a large profit for 2 years and sold them at 3 times the cost of purchase... of course it did not come easy. Plenty of dramas with tenants not paying, destroying the properties, one even committed suicide in one of the flats and the police had it sealed off for a month ... aircon going bust, furniture burned you name it it happened. But that is the business. I never even gave the flats a coat of paint. And the money was made at the time of buying and not at the time of selling. 
If I wanted to start all over ... and I don't ... I would buy blocks of flat on torrens title and hire a solicitor to do the strata title and sell them individually. Again the money done at time of buying.

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## toooldforthis

> yes - you are saying   
> they are asking $649k +
> which they won't get. 
> they did get it for a pretty good price at the time. didn't overpay. and they say you make your money when you buy not sell 
> I have an email alert and I didn't even see it come through. so not sure what happened there - might have been an off market sale. 
> there is no extra car parking - just slack agent.
> I haven't had a close look yet and done any sums but I thought it was jarrah boards refinished, not floaters, and garage door original. 
> but I agree with your overall thinking.

  now asking $609k

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## toooldforthis

now asking $599k 166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 - House for Sale #123045678 - realestate.com.au

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## Spottiswoode

> now asking $599k 166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 - House for Sale #123045678 - realestate.com.au

  The backyard is almost funny. Obviously new, not established turf surrounded by dirt and weeds.

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## autogenous

Hit the nail on the head. It is a complex concept, and a lot of people make capital gains on land in an 'appreciating' market 
If you are paying people to do your work, then you will struggle.  If you DYI and bugger up some of the work, you will struggle on resale.   
Anyone an make money in a rapidly appreciating market.  Bloke across the road just lost $50000 flipping a home. He reckons his holding costs are about $1000 a week.   

> the ones where you don't put a price on your time & labour. 
> only to be outdone by the ones that don't include transaction or holding costs.

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## autogenous

It costs $20000 to smash a house down, and in some states $1200 m2 to build a new one. 
Some people do up their house, then the buyer smashes it down to build a new house.   http://www.realestate.com.au/propert...hill-123045678

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## Marc

Almost all absurdity of conduct arises 
from the imitation of those who we cannot resemble. _Samuel Johnson_

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## autogenous

Under estimated wet areas by $3000 each excluding Labor 
A cheap flat pack kitchen cabinets and laminex top only is $7500 excluding fitting (Just seen one)   

> did some pretty generous sums:  purchase  $        501,000  stamp duty  $          19,000  settlement agent  $            1,500  sundry purchase costs (termite inspection etc)  $                500  holding/opportunity costs on $522k at, say, 3%  $          15,660  refinish jarrah floors  $            4,000  painting  $            4,000  electrical/lighting  $            4,000  gas connections  $            1,000  new fixtures (fireplace etc)  $            2,000  new kitchen (relocated)  $            8,500  new bathroom  $            7,000  new laundry  $            2,500  internal restructures  $            3,000     paint? windows/leadlights  $            3,000  landscaping (new driveway, pergola, paving, lawn ...)  $          15,000     sales commission  $          15,000  settlement agent  $            1,500   * $        608,160*      they didn't even take out the crappy in wall a/c in the lounge !  and labour costs in Perth are exorbitant   but hey, they will say paid $501k sold for $625k!! woo hoo!!

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## METRIX

> Under estimated wet areas by $3000 each excluding Labor 
> A cheap flat pack kitchen cabinets and laminex top only is $7500 excluding fitting (Just seen one)

  Depends on how many carcass, got mine custom made, satin poly doors, blum soft close everything with stone tops for less than that, typical U shape with 2 x 900mm pantry, 900mm breakfast bar

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## phild01

> Depends on how many carcass, got mine custom made, satin poly doors, blum soft close everything with stone tops for less than that, typical U shape with 2 x 900mm pantry, 900mm breakfast bar

  Can they do doors only, need to get some done.

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## JB1

> now asking $599k 166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 - House for Sale #123045678 - realestate.com.au

  I'm not sure about Perth, but what's the property market like in Gooseberry. 
If it was in Melb or Sydney, it would have been snapped up by now (probably sold for $600k without lifting a finger). 
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## autogenous

How many lineal metres? 6 foot galley is a tiny kitchen. And the price please?   

> Depends on how many carcass, got mine custom made, satin poly doors, blum soft close everything with stone tops for less than that, typical U shape with 2 x 900mm pantry, 900mm breakfast bar

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## autogenous

The majority of doors are bought by the cabinet maker, like you would Bunnings   

> Can they do doors only, need to get some done.

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## barnes

> now asking $599k 166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 - House for Sale #123045678 - realestate.com.au

  That is Perth real estate market. If he was doing the same thing in Vancouver, he would easily make close to 100% of it last year alone. This guy picked the wrong market for it.

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## Marc

To make 100%[profit] he has to steal the house first  :Smilie:

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## JB1

> To make 100%[profit] he has to steal the house first

  No. 
If it cost you $1, and you sell it for $2, you made 100% profit.   
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## Marc

Sure, a common mistake. 
Profit is the selling price minus the cost and expenses. Unless you steal something or it is a gift and transferred at zero cost, there is no way to make 100% profit. What you describe is 50% profit and of course ignoring cost of transfer. 
Mark up is a different concept. If you buy at $1 and sell at $2 your markup is 100% if you sell at $3 your markup is 200% yet even if your markup is 1000% (sell at $11) you are still unable to make 100% profit. 
Just saying ...  :Smilie:

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## phild01

Apparently called profit _margin_!
So if $1 becomes $3 then that is 100% profit margin.

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## Bedford

> Sure, a common mistake. 
> Profit is the selling price minus the cost and expenses. Unless you steal something or it is a gift and transferred at zero cost, there is no way to make 100% profit. What you describe is 50% profit and of course ignoring cost of transfer. 
> Mark up is a different concept. If you buy at $1 and sell at $2 your markup is 100% if you sell at $3 your markup is 200% yet even if your markup is 1000% (sell at $11) you are still unable to make 100% profit. 
> Just saying ...

  I always reckoned that 50% of something was better than 100% of nothing!  :Smilie:

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## toooldforthis

> now asking $599k 166 Williams Street Gooseberry Hill WA 6076 - House for Sale #123045678 - realestate.com.au

  finally sold for $585k.
were asking $649k+ back in March. 
I am not having a go at this particular one; just using it as an example.

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## pharmaboy2

> Apparently called profit _margin_!
> So if $1 becomes $3 then that is 100% profit margin.

  Regrettably Phil, this is one occasion when Marc is correct.  In accounting, margin is based on selling price, markup on cost price (a retailing term) 
$600k selling price, $400k costs, is a 1/3rd profit margin,   When someone says they made 100% profit, it tells you 2 things, 
1. They sold something for twice what they think they paid for it.
2.  They have no accounting skills.   :Wink:

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