# Forum Home Renovation Asbestos  Asbestos containing or not?

## q9

Doing some work on the bathroom, and have removed a small section of the cement sheeting.  No idea of the age of it, but as the house was built in 1977 it is borderline for the 1978 asbestos ban. 
On the the back side of the sheeting is printed: "Wunderflex Metric 2A 153/5" 
Google has never heard of it, and neither have I.  At the moment treating it as if it is ACM, but just wondering if anyone knows for sure?  I'll probably send it off to the lab for testing to be sure, though probably wont get a result this year...

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## chuth77

Can't say I've heard of it.... Best to get it checked by the lab... And in the meantime treat it as Asbestos...

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## q9

Yep, that's the plan.  Sent a sample of to a lab in Bris Monday, should have the results already...I'll give them a ring later today.  I've sealed the room with plastic until I hear back.  BTW testing is only $38.50.

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## q9

Results are back - it contains asbestos...

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## Bloss

yep as you have found Wunderflex was asbestos sheeting with a hard painted surface used in place of tiles. Held in place mostly with an extruded aluminium system for corners and joins. 
But like all bound asbestos this is safe enough to handle using pretty simple precautions that are listed on many web sites. Main thing is to use no mechanical devices at all - nothing that would covert the relatively inert bound material into highly dangerous dust. No need to replace it all unless you really have to because of damage even the painted surface of wunderflex accepts tile adhesives well so you could refurbish using that as the base if the waterproofing etc was up to par. 
If you need to redo waterproofing (and I would on a house that age) then you'll need to remove all the sheeting and start from scratch.  :2thumbsup:

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## q9

The entire problem is that there is no waterproofing at all on the material I have, and the tile adhesive stuck to the wunderflex but not the tiles  :Tongue:  
So to retile using the existing material is not really feasible.  When I did the toilet, I didn't even think about asbestos, and can't remember if I used a mechanical sander or not when I plastered it up  :Eek:   Mostly there was very thick paint/sealer and I only sanded plaster.  I always use my respirator when sanding so I should be ok, just not happy about exposing myself to it at all though. 
My new job pays a lot better than my old one, so I think it is just best to pay someone else to deal with it and remove it for me.  I might also get a quote to remove all the suspect material from the house while I am at it...

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## Bloss

As I said this is very safe stuff to handle so long as you do not create dust by using mechanical items (such as tools or even sandpaper). Even if you do need an occasional hole then safety masks (proper ones not the flimsy paper ones) will fully protect you. 
In any case you need to remove the stuff in the bathroom to waterproof it so the bigger issue will be the local law about disposal. In many states you have no choice but to use a licensed asbestos remover who knows where to dispose of it etc. So best to do that if the local law demands it, but if you are able to dispose of legally there is no reason for you not to do it yourself. 
Searching out and replacing all other bound asbestos (sheeting) is simply a waste of time and money. Best is to simply replace as you renovate (or never if you don't) - it is harmless if left alone. Every eaves lining in every house built before 1978-1984 would be asbestos sheeting, many laundry, bathroom, toilet walls would be too. Compressed asbestos sheeting was used on floors under tiles for more than 20 years up to 1984 too and it is possible that old stock was used after that date (mostly by DIYers, but perhaps by others too). 
Left alone it is fine - you just need to be aware of it existence so that you can take safety precautions (and advise others to do so too) when doing anything that would convert the bound asbestos to dust.  :2thumbsup:

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## q9

Yep, I agree that mostly left alone it is fine.  Though I do wish I had thought about it earlier... 
The main reason for removing it elsewhere is that all the downstairs areas are sheeted with it.  Laundry, bathroom, and the big downstairs room.  We are planning on renovating the whole lot, and have a plan to make the downstairs room substantially better than it is now.  Has been mostly a utility/junk room up until now, but it is such a nice room or rather it could be such a nice room.  Fixed a water leak from the outside door, so am free to rip the carpet up and lay some wood flooring. 
My original plan was to gyprock that room and repaint and/or tile the laundry and bathroom areas.  Removing the garage sheeting would basically be just to be rid of it completely.  It'll come down to the quotes I guess. 
I'll keep this thread updated, as I think it may be of interest to others.

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## q9

Had a talk to the council tip people today.  It is $66/T to dump.  At that price, and given the low volume I have to get rid of and it's generally good condition, I am probably going to opt for removal and disposal myself.  I've already bought extra respirators, a new garden sprayer, etc, and have some really good advice given to me by a friend of mine who used to be an EHO at council (now working for Qld Health).

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## chuth77

Make sure you've got the right resperators... P2 I think it is... 
And get yourself some disposable overalls...

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## q9

I might need to consider splitting this up and starting a new thread...but anyhow... 
Had a thought about getting an asbestos rated vacuum cleaner as there were some models that had some good grade HEPA filters available.  Rang the manufacturer, and they do not recommend them for asbestos.  Dang.   
Did a bit of a ring around, and entry level asbestos rated models start at around $1300.  Something tells me that a fair bit of that goes to some long term product liability insurance... 
Basically the cheaper one I was thinking about would have been ideal as I could use a good vac for cleaning up after plastering and all the general reno work.  But it is no good, so I'm going to have to stick with wet wiping.  $1300 for a one off job is just a bit too much.

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## Bloss

So long as other are not around a regular vacuum that has a paper filter and a paper bag (so you can dispose of it too) will be fine for the final cleanup job. As has been mentioned if you have the correct gear and you are simply removing bound asbestos sheet the amount of asbestos dust as opposed to just regular dirt is of negligible risk. That's assuming you keep the safety gear on in any case. 
The overalls with hood are under $10 and you should use a silicone mask with single or twin cassette respirator filters - not the paper type masks. I use twin cassette as I find it easier to breath through them and more comfortable on hot days. Cheap ones are around $30 - better designed ones can be well over $150, but for a one off job and occasional DIY use the cheaper ones are fine - they still meet the standards.

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## q9

> The overalls with hood are under $10 and you should use a silicone mask with single or twin cassette respirator filters - not the paper type masks. I use twin cassette as I find it easier to breath through them and more comfortable on hot days. Cheap ones are around $30 - better designed ones can be well over $150, but for a one off job and occasional DIY use the cheaper ones are fine - they still meet the standards.

  Yes, I have a 3M 7502 - it was gift when I used to work at the Fibre Composites Lab  :Smilie:   Bought new filters and prefilters.  We bought a box of paper P2 masks as well, mostly to allow someone to come into the room to help me carry something out, or for when I am doing something lower risk like breaking up the floor tiles. 
It definately pays to shop around for safety gear.  One of the local industrial suppliers is about 50% cheaper that the big B on masks and paper suits.  I found out after I already bought it  :Mad:   But for the convenience of buying it on the weekend it doesn't really matter.  Another $30 isn't breaking the budget. 
I've currently got the tiles ripped up, just a few pieces to remove out of the room.  Then I can get started removing the sheeting.  One of the problems I am having at the moment is how hot it is.  I can only stand about 20-30 minutes in the room at a time as it is so hot without venitlation. 
Hopefully have all the sheeting removed by the weekend, so I can start on the real work...

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## q9

Bit of an update... 
Removal is going fairly slowly.  Trying very hard to follow the procedures but unfortunately the seem to be written by someone that's never had to follow their own instructions. 
For instance, the procedure says to use a punch to hammer nails through the sheeting.  This may work in a pine framed house, but nails in 30 year old hardwood don't budge.  It creates a lot of tearing in the sheet and I saw quite a bit of dust moving out of other holes.  I completely wrecked the newly completed toilet wall on the other side...luckily it didn't break any tiles, but still  :Annoyed:  
So I've bought a 10mm diamond tipped hole drill.  I pack it with grease, and use water spray from the garden sprayer to suppress dust so I can cut around the nail.  Works well, no impact and no dust. 
The other thing they advise is removing the sheet as a single piece.  Unfortunately this is not practical when the sheet is the full length of the bathroom (near 3 metre).  A few of the larger sheets have torn as I've been trying to handle them and wrap them.  So I am scoring the sheeting deeply with a stanley knife and cutting them strategically (using plenty of water for dust suppression of course).  Got to be better than unpredictable and uncontrolled breakages. 
Result is, it is fairly slow, and there is a never ending cycle of cleaning up between tasks.  So, it is happening, just slowly...

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## Bloss

As I said no need to be too precious about this - if you have the safety gear on just rip it off the wall. The dust you see will not be asbestos which is well bound into the cementitious material, just regular house dust built up over the year in the cavity. 
As to size - just the largest pieces that are easy to handle given you have to put them in plastic bags etc. In fact scoring them is more likely to release fine asbestos particles than simply breaking by pulling off the wall. 
Anyway you seem to be getting there. Good work.

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## q9

There's only 4 largish sections to take down now, and a couple of smaller pieces.  Main problem now is that all the large pieces have power points, lights or some other fitting in them. 
The procedure I am using is working quite well, and I only had to score and cut one section.  Used plenty of water in the cut and then just pushed the wrecking bar behind it and "cut" it.  Worked quite well.  
The diamond drilling seems to work well with the constant water stream, no dust at all and a very clean, quick cut.  Maybe the fine grindings could be a problem at some point, but I intend on spraying a mix of PVA glue and water over everything at the end to bond any dust and crap up.  That will have the benefit of keeping a lot, and I do mean a LOT of junk out of my nice tiling job (when I get to that). 
Anyhow, my father is coming tomorrow to give me a hand, so I expect to have it all done tomorrow.  Then maybe I can finally get around to renovating my bathroom.  Did I mention I took a 4 week break in between jobs to get this bathroom done?  I'm supposed to be up to grouting now...  :Doh:  Looks like I'll be quite busy for the next few weekends...

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## Gooner

> For instance, the procedure says to use a punch to hammer nails through the sheeting. This may work in a pine framed house, but nails in 30 year old hardwood don't budge.

  I found the exact same thing. Virtually impossible to remove this way.   

> So I've bought a 10mm diamond tipped hole drill. I pack it with grease, and use water spray from the garden sprayer to suppress dust so I can cut around the nail. Works well, no impact and no dust.

  Once I had an exposed edge, I pryed the sheets off and dealt with the nails stuck in the studs later. Of course each nail had a 5 cent piece worth of sheeting stuck around it.   

> The other thing they advise is removing the sheet as a single piece. Unfortunately this is not practical when the sheet is the full length of the bathroom (near 3 metre). A few of the larger sheets have torn as I've been trying to handle them and wrap them.

  Yep, and then wrapping them in the 0.2mm plastic and transporting is the next issue. Little choice but to break it up into smaller pieces.

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## quercus

I did the whole side of the house. The procedure we used was that my wife and I were wearing disposable P2 masks. Despite owning professional Sundstrom gear, we used these as they are disposable, and if you buy a reputable brand that meets the australian standard, NOT the cheapies at the hardware shop, they are fine for asbestos, as long as it says so on the pack. 
We would wet the area down, then as I was prising off the sheets, my wife had the hose running over them. IF I had to break them, she would have water constantly runnign on the break area to avoid any dust generation. Just because the asbestos is in the cement, doesn't mean you wont generate any fibres. Better to be safe than sorry. 
I wonder how many thousands of people have unwittingly broken, sawn, smashed up fibro sheet of one kind or another in the past 40 years, while renovating houses, without any Protective gear, none the wiser. 
It is practically impossible to find any balanced info on the web about the risks of working with chrysotile (white) asbestos cement sheet. The whole country is full of it. Any carpenter, plumber, handyman who has had a career going back 20 years, would have been exposed to a lot of it. 
Most of the info takes the conservative, precautionary approach - as it should. It just seems that the info out there indicates that a lot of us should be coming down with mesothelioma soon. Certainly has kept me awake a few nights thinking about the exposure I have had over the past years without knowing what I was  doing.

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## q9

> It is practically impossible to find any balanced info on the web about the risks of working with chrysotile (white) asbestos cement sheet. The whole country is full of it. Any carpenter, plumber, handyman who has had a career going back 20 years, would have been exposed to a lot of it. 
> Most of the info takes the conservative, precautionary approach - as it should. It just seems that the info out there indicates that a lot of us should be coming down with mesothelioma soon. Certainly has kept me awake a few nights thinking about the exposure I have had over the past years without knowing what I was  doing.

  I did find a bit of info somewhere, NSW or Vic Health, or someone like that...and basically for very casual exposure the incidence of developing anything serious is very very low.  The problem is, like with most fibre carcinogens, that the effect is cumulative. 
The biggest threat is to people that combine exposure with heavy smoking.  Incidently, my father recalls having renovated a house and done other repairs over the years without any safety gear at all.  Also used to wrap pipework with asbestos, and again, no safety gear.  No one "knew".  Combine that with his smoking, at one point 2 packs a day, and he should be dead if you believe the literature.  But he is still quite healthy with no respiritory problems. 
On balance it is definately better to be over cautious than not. 
Only I differ with your use of the paper masks.  I use them for when I am in the room having a look around and not working or handling wrapped materials, and going to the dump.  My 3M 7502 has replaceable everything.  Filters are $18 pair, with prefilters $8 pair.  I also replaced the valves for $16.  Small change really. 
Anyhow, we've now removed all the large pieces, and in the end it was inevitable that the sheets got torn and broken.  Just a couple of small pieces left then a lot of cleaning, and about 2 million nails to extract.

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## q9

Another update: 
All sheeting is now removed, and all nails except for about a dozen nails near the ceiling line to go.   
I have washed a lot of the framing down by mixing some dish washing detergent into the garden sprayer.  Does a reasonably good job of getting a lot of the dust loose.  Seems to keep everything wetter for longer too. 
I'll get in and take some more pics before I start doing any more.

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## Ayrt

Hey q9, what mob did you use for the testing? 
I'm in Brissie and bought a house that was built in the late 50's. I removed a kitchen cupboard to install a dishwasher and the fibro sheet behind the cupboard had been damaged (presumably by the previous owner when installing said cupboards). I wanted to get the detritus tested but couldn't find details of anywhere to test it. I found some QLD government site, but that just linked me to some weird science site. 
If you have the details still, I'd love to grab em off you. Would certainly keep the missus happy!

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## CelticCarpentry

hi ayrt, if the house was built in the late 50's, you can be 99.9% sure the fibro is asbestos. save your $38.50 for the lab test. 
regards, justin.

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## Bloss

Celtic Carpentry is on the money - if is older than 1984 it will be asbestos, some newer might also be, but less likely and anything from the 50s certain to be asbestos. 
But read the safety info and my posts above - there is no need to get too worked up - it is a stable material that just has to handled properly so you do not do anything to it to make it unstable ie: nothing the turns it from being embedded in cement to dust. And if you must then follow the safety rules to make sure you and others are not exposed. 
Save your money and just handle it properly - plenty of sites that will tell you how.

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## GraemeCook

> *Celtic Carpentry is on the money* - if is older than 1984 it will be asbestos, some newer might also be, but less likely and anything from the 50s certain to be asbestos. 
> But read the safety info and my posts above - there is no need to get too worked up - it is a stable material that just has to handled properly so you do not do anything to it to make it unstable ie: nothing the turns it from being embedded in cement to dust. And if you must then follow the safety rules to make sure you and others are not exposed. 
> Save your money and just handle it properly - plenty of sites that will tell you how.

  
So is Bloss.   Follow the rules and, especially, do not break the stuff and its fairly safe. 
Incidentally,  when I suspected asbestos sheeting in a shed I rang the (state) Department of the Environment and they sent a guy out who inspected it using a small microscope and confirmed that it was asbestos. 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## Ayrt

Cheers chaps, 
I'm not too fussed about it, but my missus is *MEGA paranoid*.  
To keep her happy (I might show her this based on responses *grin*), we are okay to hang pictures on walls? We are okay to drill holes for stuff like raw plugs etc? 
I had the place networked up by a sparky and he was fine drilling into the wall and cutting etc. but like I say, the wife is paranoid.

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## q9

Hi Ayrt, 
Sorry I didn't see your post.  I used PB - http://www.pb.com.au/ they are in Ann St.  As everyone has said it will more than likely just confirm that is ACM. 
Do not drill it without following proper procedure.  Get yourself P2 disposable masks at a minimum, spend more on a proper respirator if you envisage doing any amount of work with it.   
Safe procedure for drilling is - use mask as above, and apply some foam type shaving cream where you want your hole.  This will capture any particles and you simply wipe it up and throw your rags away (after double bagging them of course). 
If you are planning on doing much work on that house, I'd suggest (strongly) that you call those guys to come and do an asbestos audit - it may be in places you never thought of.  Better to know in advance with this stuff.

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## Bloss

No need to waste money on an audit - that house will have asbestos sheeting! Just take proper care. 
BTW - ALL dusts should be treated with great caution and few of us take the proper care (me included and I know what can happen!). Many timbers cause major trauma when their dust is inhaled and lots of other dusts too. The finer generally the greater the problem although some dusts have chemical or mechanical characteristics that are especially problematic to human lungs. 
Lungs are for breathing clean air so let anything else get in them, especially for repeat and/or long exposure and you can expect trouble - from annoying irritation up to the big C.

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## bindi13

Oh damm.... 
Found this after googling 'Wunderflex' 
Just pulled a sheet down the other day while renovating our downstairs area.... didn't even think of asbestos till a few minutes ago when the plasterer asked about it.... the panel had Wunderflex printed on the back.  Didn't use any power tools, just a crowbar to pull it down....  probably minimal exposure but the only thing freaking me out at the moment is my 2 year old son was in the room at the same time....  there was minimal dust... hopefully will be fine.

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## Bloss

Minimal to no risk to either of you.

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## PhilT2

Southport, like Logan, still has a lot of weathered asbestos roofed homes. So I think we are all exposed to some of it by just walking down the street. But, to my knowledge, people from neighbourhoods with high numbers of these roofs do not have higher disease levels. The recent figures show that renovators are the new victims, but children of these home owners are not showing up in the statistics. Given the number of people I know who fitted bathroom extractor fans/heat lamps by drilling holes and sawing the asbestos sheet without masks I am surprised we do not have more casualties.  And they usually had the kids watching too. 
While we can control what happens at home other places are a different story. When I first did some work for Qld Education I saw a cowboys regularly do some stupid things with asbestos. So when my kids started school I went to the front desk and asked for the asbestos register which they all have if it is present in the building. I made sure the staff knew that all trades coming on site had to sight the register and sign off that they had. That was a while ago now but I'll bet there are staff at Ed Qld who don't know the procedure and I know for certain there are still d**kheads out there who have been taught what to do but still take shortcuts and put kids at risk. 
That's not aimed at you bindi13, you made a mistake (join the crowd) and it sounds like you aren't about to let it happen again. I'm sure you and your boy will be fine. I just took the opportunity presented by your post to dribble on about a pet hate.

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## q9

> Found this after googling 'Wunderflex'

  That's quite pleasing actually.  Not what happened, but that you found it googling "Wunderflex" - my searches returned nothing when I started this thread.  Wunderflex just has no profile on any site I searched for information.

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## mrcurly

Interesting thread...  
My first job was in the building industry in the late 70's so i reckon i must have been exposed to plenty of asbestos, and while working in the company depot I was using a napsack sprayer loaded with 245t on blackberries. Respirators, goggles and gloves were frowned upon -  spray painting cranes etc was done outside (in around 50 degree heat), protective equipment consisted of a paper mask and was very optional!   
Well that was lonnng ago and i'm happy to still have my health. You would expect the blaise attitude toward health and safety has changed a lot since the 70's, mostly driven by a corporate fear of litigation, but not necessarily! 
A couple of years ago we bought an acreage on the sunshine coast. The little house (circa 1985) was lowset brick veneer, and had a few panels at either end (and eaves etc) that looked like they may have asbestos in them. Had it checked by a building inspector and it came back clean. Some months later we found a stack of a few dozen moss covered fibro sheets hidden under the foliage in the front garden, i contacted the council as it was on the verge of the road and looked to have been dumped. The next day a guy from the council came over, i showed him the heap, and he said 'everybody is just terrified of asbestos, really its not that dangerous - and i'm 99% sure that is not asbestos' while breaking the corner off it (a little puff of dust goes into the air  :Shock: ), he look at it closely and repeats 'nup, i'm sure this isn't asbestos' then proceeds to do the same again with a larger chunk (another puff wafts in my direction  :Shock:  :Shock:  )and says 'just to be safe' he will take it away for testing.  
Well guess what? it was asbestos...  
While i think there is definitely a place for Darwins theory of natural selection, i would prefer to not to be standing next to the idiot when they put their hand up for a lung full of potential cancer!

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