# Forum Home Renovation Home Theatres  New HT amplifier wanted

## Moondog55

After looking for the last 6 years I have finally found another pair of the large Sansui speakers to round out out set so that all the speakers are the same
It's almost time to think about a new amplifier to replace the cheap [$300-] Yamaha and I have absolutely no idea of what the sound quality of any of the new models is like.
I do know however that Yamaha are changing the model line-up and the older models are starting to be heavily discounted
It's a small room so I don't think there is any advantage to doing 7.1 as I only have 6 main speakers [ lots of "presence" speakers tho] but if we can get 7.1 cheaply enough we can think about it
Any advice on the best value at the moment? ease of setup and use is very important as is integration with our current TV which only has digital input not HDMI

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## SilentButDeadly

I assume you are talking AV receiver rather than a 6 channel power amp? If yes and pricing is important then I'd check out the Yamaha RX-V477 as I'd reckon you might get in for around 500-600...if you fancy 7.2 then the RX-V577 can be had for $700 ATM Specials - Electronics 
Some of the new Sony units are supposed to be good too.

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## Uncle Bob

Those new amps are probably better with a 0.00001 THD improvement  :Wink:

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## Moondog55

It's probably operator error but I can't get the TV to play though this amplifier, it's more about flexibility that SQ or power and the newer amps do seem to have much more flexibility built into them although you can never really have too much clean power IMO

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## r3nov8or

> ...our current TV which only has *digital input* not HDMI

   Presumably this means DVI input? HDMI to DVI cables are readily available. That is, integration with your TV won't be a problem

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## Moondog55

No its Optical digital TOS-link TV has no HDMI out only HDMI in so the audio signal on TV broadcasts isn't getting to the amplifier
As I said it may be my error; but I can't see anything in either manual to help

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## Armers

What brand TV?!

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## r3nov8or

> No its Optical digital TOS-link TV has no HDMI out only HDMI in so the audio signal on TV broadcasts isn't getting to the amplifier
> As I said it may be my error; but I can't see anything in either manual to help

   Ah, ok, optical digital audio out. I've seen TVs where you need to set either internal or external speakers in audio settings. As Armers says, TV make and model would help.

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## Moondog55

Panasonic TH-P50ST30A is the TV and the amp is the little Yamaha RX-V 373
I've been through the manuals and I really think I've done everything correctly but when I may try reconnecting everything in a few days and do the control set-up over again
TV supports Audio Control Return

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## r3nov8or

I've used this pdf of your TV http://ernie.awa.com.au/ArticleDocum...anual.pdf.aspx 
If trying to get audio out via HDMI, on your TV ARC is only on HDMI2. Is that what you are using? 
Pages 85 and 86 show connection options, but don't give an example of using your digital optical out. But see SPDIF Selection on page 37 - I'd lock this in as PCM. (I've seen this suggested on AV forums in the distant past)

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## Armers

> I've used this pdf of your TV http://ernie.awa.com.au/ArticleDocum...anual.pdf.aspx 
> If trying to get audio out via HDMI, on your TV ARC is only on HDMI2. Is that what you are using? 
> Pages 85 and 86 show connection options, but don't give an example of using your digital optical out. But see SPDIF Selection on page 37 - I'd lock this in as PCM. (I've seen this suggested on AV forums in the distant past)

  
What he said... and maybe change the output to mpeg as the digital audio preference as this sorts it some times! 
Cheers

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## Moondog55

I'll give that a try.
Now another question
I know quite a bit about speakers but not much about the relatively new 7.1 format
We only have 6 of the speakers with the 155mm woofers and I don't think I will find one more in the near future. if we have to have mismatched speakers which are the least important in the 7.1 set-up?
In other words where do I place the little ones? At the rear or at the sides and use the bigger speakers for the rear?
These speakers were sold as a set for Dolby5.1 matrix but for digital all the speakers should be the same
Maybe I should join the HT forum but I find Stereonet a bit pedantic and holier than thou at times

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## PlatypusGardens

> I find Stereonet a bit pedantic and holier than thou at times

  
*bites tongue*     :Rofl:

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## Moondog55

> *bites tongue*

  Hmmm A case of the pot calling the kettle dark brown??

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## PlatypusGardens

> Hmmm A case of the pot calling the kettle dark brown??

  A case of agreeing with your comment

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## Moondog55

Yep hence the "Dark brown"  There is no "tongue in cheek" emoticon
.These are the Sansui speakers in the question<-
There was a bigger model with dual woofers in a 2.5 configuration but those are relatively rare S/H as few people sell them on      
The smaller ones are to use with the computer 
And I'll try and find a use for the so-called centre speakers

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## Moondog55

BTW
If anybody knows which model these speakers are I'd appreciate being told
No model # on the label that shows up in a search

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## r3nov8or

> ...
> And I'll try and find a use for the so-called centre speakers

   Use as a centre channel is usually the best choice  :Smilie:  . Jokes aside it is the single most important speaker for the spoken word in a surround setup

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## Moondog55

Orientation of the drivers is completely wrong for good speech reproduction. The bigger speakers in the vertical plane are really much better
The horizontal layout is a visual thing and has little to do with good audio
Also they are small woofers and can't be used on the large setting, even as computer speakers they need a .5 woofer or a sub for decent SQ.
Still waiting for the money to come through from CUA so it looks like it will be another month before we tackle this small issue

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## r3nov8or

Fair enough if you believe that particular centre is no good for your purpose. But done right, the centre channel "is the single most important speaker for the spoken word in a surround setup". 
Me, I just use decent stereo for everything.

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## Moondog55

Totally agree on the importance of the centre channel, it's just that the design of the centre channel got confused with aesthetics and looks won over performance in most cases
It's also important for music reproduction that all the speakers in a surround set-up are the same; less important for SFX in movies
Has anybody else noticed that most of the new generation of high quality surround receivers are putting a phono stage in?

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## phild01

I find all this 5.1, 6.1, and so on, does nothing for good speech quality (pretty poor in some TV programing now) and just drowns it out on standard TV audio.

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## r3nov8or

> I find all this 5.1, 6.1, and so on, does nothing for good speech quality (pretty poor in some TV programing now) and just drowns it out on standard TV audio.

  Certainly, the HD DTV channels seem to fare worst unless the audio is processed by a HT receiver.

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## woodbe

> I find all this 5.1, 6.1, and so on, does nothing for good speech quality (pretty poor in some TV programing now) and just drowns it out on standard TV audio.

  Agree. Every now and then I have to flick through the various processing options on the HT receiver to get clear speech. I think it's usually a broadcast error as I have seen it on the same show for different episodes and no change on the HT. The simple fix is 'Surround Off' and we can enjoy good stereo which always sounds good. 
The centre speakers are horizontally aligned so that the TV can remain at eye level. That's not aesthetics, it's practicality. If you have acoustically transparent screen and a projector you can do what you like behind there but not many of those around outside of movie theatres.

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## Moondog55

I'd disagree there Woodbe; far too much comb filtering happens with the woofers in the horizontal; the ideal is a single woofer or two small midrange drivers vertically with minimum separation.
These drivers are far too far apart in the first instance even when used vertically
C2C distance is 6 times the crossover wavelength

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## SilentButDeadly

The less said about StereoNet the better... 
Use your little speakers as effects speakers (rear).  In simple terms, 7.1 adds two more effects speakers off to each side (between main and rear) and is (I suspect) a 'software' response to the typically poor speaker placement in the average home.

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## Moondog55

Yes we probably will if we go the 7.1 route, at the moment we look like keeping the little amp for a while yet, at least until ALL the renovations are done
The muddiness comb filtering causes could actually be seen as an advantage for rear effects speakers

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## woodbe

> I'd disagree there Woodbe; far too much comb filtering happens with the woofers in the horizontal; the ideal is a single woofer or two small midrange drivers vertically with minimum separation.
> These drivers are far too far apart in the first instance even when used vertically
> C2C distance is 6 times the crossover wavelength

  Not sure what comb filtering even is! Google says:   

> Therefore every location in the room that is receiving direct sound  at equal level from both loudspeakers (except for the center line where  the distance to each loudspeaker is exactly equal), will receive two  signals arriving at different times. 
>   This time offset causes the comb filtering.

  Apparently common in large halls with multiple speakers. Unfortunately, our space is a reasonable sized living room, and we sit a good distance back from the speaker line, but in any case, if comb filtering affects our setup it is transparent to anyone. The common comb filter complaint is apparently: "a place in the seating where people complain that they can’t  hear, or a place where the mic consistently goes into feedback, such as  directly under the loudspeaker array."  
In our case, we do sometimes have trouble hearing dialogue, but it is for all points in the room, not just one area, and changing surround mode definitely alters the response. I still think it is a broadcast or maybe a dated processor problem at our end. Doing an A/B comparison between recorded shows displays the difference. Even changing channels on live broadcast will alter the clarity of dialogue when one show has too laid back dialogue. Could be that our processor is a bit out of date, we've had it for a while (HK feeding MF current pump amps) 
What exactly is C2C?

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## Moondog55

Centre to Centre 
Comb filtering describes the interference between drivers in the box if they overlap in frequency or are too far apart 
Crossover design says that the drivers should be separated by one wavelength at the crossover frequency; in other words mid and tweeter should have their centres as close as possible
If you have a big midrange driver this means in practical terms you must choose a low cross-over point
In these small boxes the drivers centres are 140mm apart and the XO point is 5kHz and the ideal is 65 to 70mm apart
Sansui chose the driver orientation of the truncated frames for the look rather than the performance and the tweeter for low cost rather than performance
Truncated frame drivers are usually used to allow a closer C2C distance
They are good boxes but could be much better, lack of speaker building funds stops me from rebuilding these with a better tweeter and dropping the XO point to 3k. Silk dome tweeters with an 80mm faceplate and an Fs of less than 700 Hz are quite expensive and there is not quite enough space to rebate a hole for the next nominal size tweeter [ usually around 101/104mm] although I could possible drop the XO frequency by changing the XO components and going to a second on the mid with a 3rd order divider on the tweeter that component cost is quite high and possibly not cost effective
Cheap tweeters usually need a high crossover point; 4000Hz to 5000Hz or distortion sets in with moderate power input

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## Random Username

Getting back to the 'which amp?' question, I run what_ I_ call a bi-amp setup - but it's one amp for music (an old Adcom) and one (Yamaha) for movies. I've had two models of Yamaha and while I've found them both good with movies, I discovered what 'fatiguing' meant in a listening context from them with music, while the old 2-channel Adcom excels at music (especially as it's 300 watts RMS per channel into some VAF DC-X speakers.... I think I've convinced next door to keep their Shania Twain to themselves, as I now have the ten hour mix of 'Everything is Awesome' from The Lego Movie!).

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## Moondog55

I'm intrigued by the "New" Yamaha HT amplifiers which have gone back to quality componentry on the amplifier stage given that they now come with phono inputs as standard
At the price we paid for our own amp it is of course all chip-amps; which are fatiguing at high output

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## Moondog55

Cecile and I just won an eBay auction for out HT speakers big brothers,   
 even with the small feet missing and a nick in  the rubber surrounds they are b*** good value at $89-plus petrol to collect
Dual  16R 8 inch woofers pack a bit more punch
Thse I may have to play with

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