# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Flouro Batten Issue

## Oldneweng

I have a problem with a double flouro batten, 60cm long. It is a fairly new looking unit but I do not remember where it came from. I can only get one tube to light up unless I "just" undo one of the starters. If I undo it fully both tubes stop working. I have swapped the tubes around, replaced starters and checked all connections. It is a Crompton branded batten. I want to hang it above my new second hand wood lathe (see woodworking forum - woodturning)  
I have 2 brand new tubes, but no spares to try. One of the starters I tried has "single 4 - 80w" written on it and others have "SER" on them. On the off chance that "SER" meant serial, which is the way the unit is wired, I made sure I had 2 "SER" starters in it. No gooda boss. When I say serial I mean that one end tube connectors are bridged across 2 middle connectors . It would be good to work out what this problem is. 
Dean

----------


## chrisp

Can you post a picture of the internals showing the wiring clearly?  Then we might be able to help.

----------


## BRADFORD

The 4-80 watt (universal) starters are not suitable for 18w tubes
You will need to get 18w (20w maybe)starters 
That should solve your problem

----------


## SilentButDeadly

I can't help much except to agree with the others that it is probably a starter issue..... 
However, I recall being told by a woodwork shop safety person that lighting moving equipment like a lathe with a fluro was not recommended because fluro's are a pulsing light source as opposed to a continuous source like a halogen.  As a result, fast moving objects could be rendered apparently unmoving due to the revs of the machine matching the frequency of the light pulse..... 
...of course I haven't tested this but it might be worth consideration...

----------


## bmcosta

^ hes right in theory  
And its series so two series starters

----------


## Oldneweng

I will try getting the right starters and see if that works. I don't know when I will get the chance to do that tho. 
A picture of the internals may not be much good. It is all white. Wires, components, all white. A bit hard to see I think. I have done a circuit diagram and will post it if the starters do not fix it. 
I understand about the issue with pulsing light sources. I have seen printouts for disks used to determine lathe speed (Metal). I think that the risk is very low and lets face it, everybody uses flouro and nobody uses halogen except maybe industry. I think it is a bit like saying that if you go outside a satellite might fall on you. 
Dean

----------


## chalkyt

Just for fun, re the apparent stationary effect with rotating items etc. It is called the stroboscopic effect and is real if the only source of light is the fluoros. Incandescent lighting doesn't "go out" as such so if you have a fluoro (which goes on and off 50 times a second) it is useful to have some supplementary incandescent or natural light with rotating machinery around. You used to see the same effect in old cowboy movies where the wagon wheels appeared to go backwards because each frame just happened to be exposed when the wheel spokes were not quite where they were in the previous frame. With "bad" timing, the speed of the rotating equipment could be such that it is in the same position every time the fluoro comes on, and appear to be stationery. Don't really know of anyone who has stuck their arm into a machine because of it, but folklore says it has happened.

----------


## applied

You should be very worried about satellites falling NASA has got a 6.5 ton monster that will crash to earth in the next day or so they just don't know where.  
And also the flouro lathe issue Is overcome by having either a incadesent working light or by having two fluros with different capacitor values or on different phases.

----------


## Smurf

By yourself some "S2" or other "Twin Series" starters. These are usually rated for 4 - 22W lamps (not 4 - 80W), and normally sold in a pack of two. Replace both the starters you have now with these. 
Whether or not it fixes the problem, the 4 - 80W "Universal" starter is not suitable for this type of batten so needs replacing anyway. 
The 4 - 80W type are suitable for practically all common fluoro lights EXCEPT twin 18W (or 20W) battens which need the different starters. The simple explanation for this is that the 2 x 18W lights are actually wired with a single 36W ballast running both tubes, hence the need for different starters. 
The electronic starters ("Greenstarter", "Fluoropulse" etc) are also NOT suitable for twin 18 W battens but are suitable for most other fluoro lights.

----------


## chrisp

> The simple explanation for this is that the 2 x 18W lights are actually wired with a single 36W ballast running both tubes, hence the need for different starters.

  Hi Smurf, 
How are the tubes wired - particularly, how are the heaters wired?

----------


## Oldneweng

> You should be very worried about satellites falling NASA has got a 6.5 ton monster that will crash to earth in the next day or so they just don't know where.  
> And also the flouro lathe issue Is overcome by having either a incadesent working light or by having two fluros with different capacitor values or on different phases.

  Yep. That was my point LOL. It has never been known for a person to be hit by falling space junk according to NASA. 
Much easier and cheaper ideas for lighting. Main shed lights are totally different flouros. This batten is an overhead light directly above the lathe. If I see any issues I will install a compact flouro as well. 
Smurf.  Thanks for clear concise explanation. I will follow your recomendations if possible. My step daughter works in a lighting shop. I rang her last night and she is going to check on their stock and she might bring the rug rats to visit tomorrow.  
Dean

----------


## Smurf

Chrisp, 
In short, they are wired in series. I'll try and find a diagram as that's probably the best way to explain it. 
(Won't be for a few days though - I've got to get off the computer and go jump on a plane soon...).

----------


## Johning

> (which goes on and off 50 times a second)

  Why 50 Times per second? Don't fluros flash at 100 times per second?

----------


## Oldneweng

Johning.  50Hz is the reason. If you count both on and off, comes to 100 times per second 
so you are both right.  Below is the first circuit diagram I managed to find on net. It is the same as my batten.
I did read that full 240 volts is required for this design. I will check my
 voltage in shed but I think it is fine. 
Sorry the diagram did not translate. Will have to save to picture and repost.      
                 =======         L o---+-----^^^^^^^-------+ +-----+               |     Ballast       | |     |               |   (Inductor)     +|-|+    |               |                  | - |    |               |                  |   |   +-+               |           Tube 1 |   |   |S| Glow Starter               |                  |   |   +-+               |                  | - |    |               |                  +|-|+    |               |                   | |     |              _|_ Power Factor     | +-----+              ___ Correction       |               |  Capacitor        | +-----+               |                   | |     |               |                  +|-|+    |               |                  | - |    |               |                  |   |   +-+               |           Tube 2 |   |   |S| Glow Starter               |                  |   |   +-+               |                  | - |    |               |                  +|-|+    |               |                   | |     |         N o---+-------------------+ +-----+   Dean

----------


## Oldneweng

Circuit diagram as promised.  2 Fluoro Circuit.txt 
Dean

----------


## Johning

[QUOTE=Oldneweng;855898]Johning.  50Hz is the reason. If you count both on and off, comes to 100 times per second 
so you are both right.  
Oldneweng, 
50 Hz is the same as 50 cycles per second. For half of the cycle the  voltage is positive and for half the cycle the voltage is negative. I  don't think floros are polarised. i.e. they create light when the  current flows in both directions. Therefore in each cycle the floro is on  twice and therefore off twice. 
2 X 50 =100 times per second. 
John

----------


## Oldneweng

[QUOTE=Johning;855907]  

> Johning.  50Hz is the reason. If you count both on and off, comes to 100 times per second 
> so you are both right.  
> Oldneweng, 
> 50 Hz is the same as 50 cycles per second. For half of the cycle the  voltage is positive and for half the cycle the voltage is negative. I  don't think floros are polarised. i.e. they create light when the  current flows in both directions. Therefore in each cycle the floro is on  twice and therefore off twice. 
> 2 X 50 =100 times per second. 
> John

  Yep. That is what I said. Your point is? 
Dean

----------


## watson

:Spyme:

----------


## Johning

[QUOTE=Oldneweng;855950]  

> Yep. That is what I said. Your point is? 
> Dean

  Sorry Dean but I don't seem to be getting my point across. 
My point is that the original quote (chalkyt #7) was that fluoros go on and off 50  times per second. I think that they go on and off 100 times per second. This may be important if you are dealing with safety issues in workshops with moving machinery.  
Would any other reader, with knowledge in this area, care to comment? 
John

----------


## Oldneweng

I understand what you are saying but still think it is 50 times per second as per 50Hz power supply. I am not an expert however and I will happily concede defeat if an expert can tell me different. I still am not sure this issue is serious enough to do more than recognise the possibility. My lathe has the following speeds 178, 300, 570, 850, 1200, 1800, 2400, 3000. All but 2 of these are multiples of 50 and all but 3 of them are multiples of 100. Worth looking at if I ever get this light working properly. There is still only a problem if you forget that something is there spinning fast. 
Dean

----------


## Oldneweng

Hmmmm. 
Johning.  Just checked wikipedia. I think the issue is in intepretation. I assumed on and off 50 times a second to be on 50 times and off 50 times which is 100 which is what I said. According to wikipedia the power cycle for 50Hz is positve for 10ms then negative for 10ms with an off in between. This is 100 flashes per second so you are right, and chalkyt is right if I interpreted his/her words correctly. It appears you interpreted them differently. 
Dean

----------


## Johning

Dean  
 I don't see this discussion as a competition where one has to concede defeat. I am just trying to correct an error made in a previous post.  
 Not to labour the point but:  
 In post #19 I deliberately used the same words (and in the same order) a Chalkyt to eliminate any argument regarding interpretation.  
 In the context of a light emitting device “to go on and off” is the same as saying to flash (no raincoat jokes here guys).  
 The only thing that is important in this argument is that you now accept that fluoros (of the type you have) flash at 100 Hz i.e. twice supply frequency.    
 Paragraph titled  “Flicker problems” in the following URL will inform you about “flicker rates and strobing problems.   Fluorescent lamp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  
 It does state that as fluoros come to the end of their useful life they _may_ flicker at supply frequency. Maybe this is what Chalkyt was referring to.  
 Getting back on topic. Did you get you fluoro working?  
 Watson. Please enlighten me. What does post #18 mean?  
 John

----------


## watson

> Watson. Please enlighten me. What does post #18 mean?  
>  John

  
G'day John,
When things get just to the edge of "testy" within a thread I post  :Spyme: .....just to let people know that we are watching. 
Saves posting "settle down you lot"  all the time. 
No dramas.

----------


## chalkyt

Hi Johning
Haven't looked at the forum for a bit but it looks like I inadvertently stirred up a can of worms. Just a bit slack in my terminology in the original post (a bit late at night after dinner and a soothing beverage or two and idly pondering that a 2 pole motor rotates at 3000 RPM or 50 times per second and all that stuff!)... yes one firing of the tube on the positive half of the cycle as the triggering (on & off) voltage threshold is reached and one firing on the negative half cycle equals 100 flashes per second. The stroboscopic effect was a big bogey thrown at us as apprentices in an industrial environment (surrounded by lathes etc) but I don't think that I ever saw a rotating machine that appeared to be stopped. However as part of our training we did have to make a disk with alternating black and white segments to show that the effect really existed. (It only sort of existed because with some load and losses the motor speeds were a bit less than synchronous speeds so the disc segments appeared to drift backwards... all good fun!)

----------


## Bros

Gee I didn't answer because I never knew the answer but when I saw Watson come on the scene I decided to look as the rest of the posts. Well I got dizzy from all the flashing lights and it affected my ability to reply so I will sit on the sidelines.

----------


## watson

> Gee I didn't answer because I never knew the answer but when I saw Watson come on the scene I decided to look as the rest of the posts. Well I got dizzy from all the flashing lights and it affected my ability to reply so I will sit on the sidelines.

   :Rotfl:     I can remember this question from 1967 during AC theory classes.

----------


## mccann73

I have attached a good explanation of the issues associated with fluoro lighting and moving machinery below. If this issue would be a concern for you at all, I would ditch the fluoro you currently have and purchase one of the new 2x28w T5 fluoros (there are smaller sizes but can be more expensive), will give you good light, instant on, and as the electronic ballast runs at least a 20 KHz, so you will have no stroboscopic effect... 
cheers 
======= fluro lighting - Woodwork Forums 
"The stroboscopic phenomenon is well established and actually forms part  of the course for Electricians / electrical engineers in England at  least. 
As has been said, it comes from the fact that fluorescent luminaires  will strobe on and off at the same rate as the Hz of the supply. 
50Hz in Aus will translate to a 50rps / 3000rpm speed in a rotating  machine. If the fluorescent tube is the sole source of light, at 3000rpm  (give or take a few rpm), rotation will appear stationary. 
The big danger does indeed come from big machine shops where the  background noise is so high, ear protection is being worn and there is  no way to tell if your machine is running by noise alone. 
Ironically, the nature of big machine shops invariably being supplied by  3-phase electricity means a properly installed lighting setup negates  the stroboscopic effect. 
Correct practice in this instance is to wire each successive fluorescent  fitting to a different phase in order. This means that each set of 3  fittings fires individually on a different phase, negating the  stroboscopic effect. 
A much simpler way of dealing with it in a smaller workshop / home  environment, if it's a problem, is to add a standard halogen /  incandescent type light to the area around the machine. Maybe an  anglepoise type thing focused on the work area. Cuts out the  stroboscopic effect altogether." 
=========

----------


## Johning

Watson  
 “When things get just to the edge of "testy" within a thread”  
 Ahhhh! All is revealed.  
 Chalkyt  
 “a bit late at night after dinner and a soothing beverage or two”  
 No worries: been there done that.  
 Mccann73  
 In 1964 I was working in a a big machine shop (over 100 lathes, 20 shapers, 10 drill presses and many massive press machines) as a fitter and turner. It was in England and in winter there was no natural light at the beginning and end of the working day. It was very noisy and you could not hear the lathe you were working with. All light was fluorescent and we were warned of the dangers of the stroboscopic effect. As you stated the factory's fluorescent lamps were wired to 3 phase to eliminate the problem.  
 In 1965 I was a lab technician working in a company making fluorescent lamps. One of my tasks was to design and build test equipment to measure the light output of the lamps. No really relevant, but the lamps did not flicker. They were nuclear powered and you could not turn them off.  
 John

----------


## BRADFORD

I have just revisited this thread, it almost got testy.
Back on the subject, Dean did you get your light to work?

----------


## Oldneweng

Maybe not the right words to use (Your point is) but I was only asking because as far as I knew everyone was agreed that 100Hz flicker was the case but Johning seemed to think otherwise. I could not understand why he kept saying what had already been agreed on. I was agreeing with him. I agreed with his point from the begining. Chalkyt has explained his slip so it seems that everyone agrees. No testiness from me! 
No I have not fixed the problem yet. I have not had a visit from my daughter yet. Maybe today. I could have got starters myself on thursday but didn't because had already arranged with my daughter. She has probably forgotten LOL. Plenty of other things to do in meantime. I have 43 acres with cattle and sheep. Never ending list of jobs. Does renovating cattle yards count in this forum? I will let you know when I solve this fluoro problem either way. 
Dean

----------


## watson

Luv to see the cattle yard reno  :2thumbsup:

----------


## Oldneweng

> Luv to see the cattle yard reno

  I am not sure where to post that renovation. Electrical does not seem to be the right place. 
Anyway my daughter is visiting and did bring 18 - 22 w starters and they have fixed the problem. Yayyy. She was told that starters in series need to be able to run on 110v as they are in series. Problem solved. 
Dean

----------


## Johning

Dean  
 We may have had problems communicating but I do think that post #30 is a bit unfair. You responded to my post #19 with your post #20.  
 I understood when you said in post #20 “ 50 times per second as per 50 Hz power supply” to mean that you still thought 50 Hz flicker rate. If you had said that the flicker rate was _twice_ supply frequency I would have understood that you were agreeing with me.    
  Oldneweng Post #30
 “Maybe not the right words to use (Your point is) but I was only asking because as far as I knew everyone was agreed that 100Hz flicker was the case but Johning seemed to think otherwise. I could not understand why he kept saying what had already been agreed on. I was agreeing with him. I agreed with his point from the begining.”    
 Johning Post #19
 “My point is that the original quote (chalkyt #7) was that fluoros go on and off 50 times per second. I think that they go on and off 100 times per second.”    
 Oldneweng Post #20
 “I understand what you are saying but still think it is 50 times per second as per 50Hz power supply. I am not an expert however and I will happily concede defeat if an expert can tell me different.”    
 John

----------


## Oldneweng

Johning. And clarified my position in post 21. I believe this post is specific as to my position and my interpretation of  Chalkyt's post. I am not sure how this post can be considered different to what you said.    

> I understood when you said in post #20  50 times per second as per 50  Hz power supply to mean that you still thought 50 Hz flicker rate.

  Is 50 times off and on 50 times off and 50 times on or 25 times off and 25 times on. As I said it is just a matter of interpretation and if you choose to make an interpretation that is your call.   

> I don't see this discussion as a competition where one has to concede  defeat. I am just trying to correct an error made in a previous post.

  When I said that, I meant "be corrected" as I am happy to have the truth made clear to me if I am on the wrong track. I have a desire to know the truth. It is one of the reasons why I am on this Forum. Hopefully there are qualified or experienced people out there who can clear up these issues for me and others. Extend knowledge etc. 
Dean

----------


## chrisp

A 50 Hz AC supply causes 100 Hz flicker. 
During a 50 Hz cycle (20 mS) the voltage/current/power will go to zero twice (but not necessarily together).  i.e. the tube will light during the positive half of the cycle, go off momentarily at the positive-to-negative zero crossing, relight during the negative half of the cycle, go off momentarily at the negative-to-positive zero crossing.

----------


## Bruiser

Spot on, Chrisp.  And beautifully phrased, easy to understand. 
For the rest of the scrum, today's word is 'emaul.  An attack in writing'.   :Wink:

----------


## Johning

Dean  
 In matters of interpretation alternatives do not necessarily carry equal weight.  
 Oldneweng quote
 “Is 50 times off and on 50 times off and 50 times on or 25 times off and 25 times on. As I said it is just a matter of interpretation and if you choose to make an interpretation that is your call.”       
 Interpretation needs needs to be considered  in context. The context of this discussion is that of flashing lights and strobing effects.  
 My opinion is that your first interpretation to be much more likely than the second. Let me try to explain why.  
 Just as you cannot have a light flash without both an on and an off  period you cannot have a gin and tonic water drink without both the gin and the tonic water.  
 If I go into a pub and order 50 gin and tonic drinks I would expect to be served with 50 glasses, each containing some gin and some tonic water, not 25 glasses of gin and 25 glasses of tonic water; unless of course the barmaid is blonde. (Sorry Watson. I could not resist the blonde joke).  
 John

----------


## watson

:Hahaha:

----------


## Oldneweng

As long as my light is working I am happy. I am not interested in flicker. Frankly I am tired of hearing about it. I have spent many years working under fluoros with dangerous equipment and hopefully will spend many more. I use them because they are cheap to run. That saves money. I will continue to do so.  
Thankyou to everyone who helped me to fix my light. 
Note to self. Don't try to explain someone elses mistakes or you will get blamed for them. 
Post 20 was confusing and I apologise for this. I did however clarify it in very next post. 
Note on post 21. I assumed "Chalkyt" meant on 50 and off 50. I was not commenting on my thoughts but my interpretation of Chalkyt's. I cannot see how anyone can interprete this post as saying anything other than I think the flicker rate is 100 times per second as I actually stated " This is 100 flashes per second". You are free to assume that flashes and flicker are the same.   
Dean

----------


## BRADFORD

Congratulations on getting your light working.

----------


## Oldneweng

Thanks Bradford.  
I have been doing some research as I have 5ft fluoro battens which I bought cheap, in my shed and my step daughter say the tubes are now getting harder to obtain as they are not common (5Ft fluoros). I was looking for more cheapies (4 ft) and found LED fluoro tube replacements. Half the running costs and twice the output. Guess what? No flicker!!!! Remove the starter and short out (bridge) the ballast connections or just remove it. About $70 bucks for a 4 ft tube (Ebay) but they last a long time like any LED. My battens are the type which have the ends connected by rivets so I can drill these out, cut the battens to 4ft length and rivet the ends and tombstones back on and I have a 4ft fluoro. 5ft LED tubes are not available of course. My step daughter quoted about $90 but she is just getting into LED lights on behalf of her employer. She went to a demo of LEDs on the way back from a convention in Sydney a few weeks ago and is still learning the ins and outs. They have been selling them but there is a difference between just selling them and knowing what the best components and prices are. Those of you in the capital city's probably have access to this stuff. 
Dean

----------


## Johning

Dean 
I am pleased that you have managed to fix your light. I am also interested in the idea of replacing fluorescent tubes with LEDs. If you go ahead and try them could you please post your conclusions. eg is the quality of light output suitable for your needs. 
John

----------


## Johning

> During a 50 Hz cycle (20 mS) the voltage/current/power will go to zero twice (but not necessarily together).

  In general the power will go to zero four times during a 50 Hz cycle. It will be zero when either the current or the voltage is zero (inclusive or). Only in the special circumstance of the voltage going to zero when the current is zero will the power go to zero twice per 50 Hz cycle.

----------


## chrisp

> In general the power will go to zero four times during a 50 Hz cycle. It will be zero when either the current or the voltage is zero (inclusive or). Only in the special circumstance of the voltage going to zero when the current is zero will the power go to zero twice per 50 Hz cycle.

  Quite right, and a good pick up.  The power will have a fundamental frequency of twice the mains frequency (generally) and four zero crossings (for non-unity power-factor). 
I suspect the light output / flicker from a florescent tube might be related to the current (and ions) than the power?

----------


## Johning

> I suspect the light output / flicker from a florescent tube might be related to the current (and ions) than the power?

  Agreed

----------


## Oldneweng

Due to the ever present problem of finance it will be a while before I try LED Fluoros considering their price but I am definitely going to try them. I will post my thoughts. My step daughter who works in a lighting store has an LED Floodlight globe she wants to bring out and try to see how well it works for herself. She lives in a flat in Mt Gambier. I will also report on the results of that test run. 
Dean

----------

