# Forum More Stuff At the end of the day  Electric cars

## Marc

Why do people buy electric cars?
"Because they are idiots" would be my comment, but no, let's be honest, they deep down believe that they have a moral obligation towards "the environment".
So they ignore and look the other way of the hundreds of components that pollute the many other countries that manufacture them, ignore the price tag that makes it an impossible proposition, ignore it's enormous limitations and trade ins, and then ... they run out of juice.
Not to worry, there is always the generator.

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## Whitey66

You should get a few good bites with that bait Marc  :2thumbsup: .
They will never be as popular as internal combustion engine vehicles unless there are some serious advances in the technology involved, mainly in both the car and storage batteries at home that could be used to charge them overnight when the sun isn't shining. At the moment, they are too expensive, don't have the ideal capacity and have a low charge rate from the panels on overcast days. 
There are people charging them with coal powered electricity and they think they are saving the earth  :Rolleyes: .
There will also need to be a hell of a lot more fast chargers scattered around this vast land of ours. Quite often you have to queue for fuel which only takes a couple of minutes to fill the tank, imagine waiting 30 to 60 minutes for drivers to top up their batteries?
The only way I can see them being viable and sensible now is if you have a storage battery and panels that can power your car completely for ALL of the driving that you do, and even then, this will cost close to $100,00 for the equivalent of a $30,000 petrol powered car. 
If people want to save the planet, have less offspring as population explosion is the root cause of all the planets problems.
Let the arguments begin !!!

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## DavoSyd



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## DavoSyd



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## DavoSyd



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## DavoSyd



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## John2b

We bought an electric car to save money. We live off-grid and charge the car from a supplementary solar panel array I put together from secondhand solar panels for a cost of around a couple of months fuel, coupled with no regular service costs - in fact no regular service required. I'd heard that people who own electric cars don't buy ICE ones again, and now we have ours I absolutely understand why. 
BTW - fastest car up Pike's Peak - that would be an electric Volkswagen, 0-100kph in less than two seconds - that would be an electric Aspark from Japan, fastest car around the Nurburgring - that would be an electric Porsche, land speed record for a wheel driven vehicle at 550 kph - that's electric as well, want a 4WD with payload of 2 tonne and a towing capacity of over 3 tonne - that would be an electric Bollinger made in Detroit. Even a diminutive Nissan Leaf electric compact car can embarrass traffic light hoons in their ICE dinosaurs.

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## joynz

:Exactly:

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## METRIX

> We bought an electric car to save money. We live off-grid and charge the car from a supplementary solar panel array I put together from secondhand solar panels for a cost of around a couple of months fuel, coupled with no regular service costs - in fact no regular service required. I'd heard that people who own electric cars don't buy ICE ones again, and now we have ours I absolutely understand why. 
> BTW - fastest car up Pike's Peak - that would be an electric Volkswagen, 0-100kph in less than two seconds - that would be an electric Aspark from Japan, fastest car around the Nurburgring - that would be an electric Porsche, land speed record for a wheel driven vehicle at 550 kph - that's electric as well, want a 4WD with payload of 2 tonne and a towing capacity of over 3 tonne - that would be an electric Bollinger made in Detroit. Even a diminutive Nissan Leaf electric compact car can embarrass traffic light hoons in their ICE dinosaurs.

  
Yep, agree 100%. 
I have been following electric car progress in other countries for the last few years, and the rollout is staggering, countries like Australia are full of bogans (just like the US) who are scared by their lack of knowledge and understanding of how the whole electric car / future energy system will work, so their way of dealing with it is to put it down and say how crap it all is. 
European countries are light years ahead of us in electric uptake / rollout, this will only be to our determent. 
John2b,  Australia is the only country to have a fully off grid electric train system, (small scale in Byron Bay) but we were the first to implement it, now other countries see it can work they are scrambling to electrify their smaller systems, plus electric ferries are already up and running, electric planes are in the final production stages. 
Battery technology is changing overnight, new systems are in development, when they hit the market the entire system will change. 
Anyone that says it's all rubbish and is powered by coal burning stations it just living in denial and needs to open their eyes to what's happening outside their own little ICE world. 
This is the future, like it or not, it's here now, and it will be in your backyard sooner then you think. 
Personally I can't wait for a commercially available UTE for the masses that does 0-100 in 3 seconds. 
Toyota won't have one available because they are living in the dinosaur word, even though they have a lot of hybrids they are dragging the chain with fully electric.
Ford will be the first with their investment in Rivian. 
If you need any proof living in ICE world is doomed, go back and follow the entire TESLA story from start to now, THE US bailed out ICE companies to the sums of multi billions of dollars and some like GMC never paid that money back. 
TESLA borrowed money from GOV'T to startup, and is they only company to have paid all that money back and is now a multi Billion $ company,do a search and you will see what's happening in the background it's quite impressive.

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## Marc

Europe or Japan, are not Australia or the US Metrix. Electric cars do work but are limited in autonomy and power, particularly towing, we don't have charging points, and if you live in an apartment, you will need a long cord to plug it in all the way up to the 20th floor. And who wants to pay triple the price?
Well I said it at the beginning. 
And how much does this recharging of the batteries costs? At 50c a kw it is going to be a shock, see chart below, prices courtesy of our green friends* 
Off the grid? What does that even mean? Centralisation is the only way to be competitive and efficient, not each one making his own thing in his little cave where he also cultivates mushrooms. There is a place for that, sure. It is called a lunatic community. If one is into that, all the more power to him.
For those of us who have jobs, and business, and hobbies, and family, and commitments, we (the peasants) need to buy things ready made, and play in the field that is there for us to play, not up in the sky with lucy and her diamonds.  
I would be the first to buy not one but 3 electric cars, providing their price is competitive with equivalent petrol or diesel, providing we have charging points everywhere I go, and providing charging takes the same time that it takes to refuel.
Meantime I enjoy my diesel engine and bless the world with it's CO2 fumigation. After all without CO2 we would be doomed. In fact, the more the merrier, particularly with the new mini ice age coming up. 
I admire those who build their own charging stations, always have. And if you think this is a new thing, think again. We had folks tinkering with electric cars back in the seventies. Toss the engine and gearbox out, plonk an electric motor in place of the gearbox and batteries in place of the motor. Charging was as simple as a windmill charger up a wooden tower. Of course the charger doubled up also for night lights for the marijuana crop.  
Not my cup of tea. I want to go from a to b, tow my 3 ton boat if needs to go for service, plan a 500 km trip without looking up power points locations and much more, same as 99 % of normal people do. 
For someone who can afford a $100,000 second car for the wife to go shopping 2 km away, sure, knock yourself out and sleep sound in the delusion that you saved the planet.  
No different from those who sail in stead of motoring because they think they are green. Then they spend twice my fuel bill on new sails and associated paraphernalia that requires tons of real pollution to manufacture (somewhere else of course) using oil to make the sails and to drive the machines that produce stainless steel and mine it's deadly components and i can go on for a week ... not fake like CO2 and that all gets' swept under the imaginary carpet of doctrinal delusion that CO2 is baaaad.
I love CO2, so I will buy an electric car when it makes sense to do so ... and fully aware that the electricity I use up to recharge the battery will produce just as much CO2, only somwhere else.
Unless we, like most of the rest of the world, go nuclear and hydro. But hey .... no no no, the green index finger is wagging right to left repeatedly, No can do.
And the government obliges.
Disgusting isn't it? 
*   
Listening to the logic about so called renewables is the same as listening to the Pentecostal church telling you that unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved, or to the seven day adventist who tells you you must go vegetarian, or the Jehovah witness who tells you jesus was just another prophet and you have to work your way towards the 144,000 that will be saved ... and how about the catholic priest who assures you that washing the forehead of an new born will wash away his "original sin" ... whatever that may be ... may be CO2 emissions is the original sin?

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## John2b

I wanted to buy a secondhand electric car in Australia but couldn't find a suitable one due to their scarcity, so I bought one in Japan. 2½ years old, 30,000 km, battery condition and range still 100%, spec'ed with just about every possible option and cost AU$14,000, plus ~$8,000 for shipping, duty, compliance including new tires, GST, registration, etc. - a bit under $23,000 for a new car that seats five adults, delivered in showroom 'new' condition. Running cost zip, service costs zip. 
Owning an electric vehicle does not mean you have to forego all ICE vehicles. We still have a diesel 4WD for what the electric car doesn't do like pulling out trees (two wheel drive isn't much chop for that) and getting down the 4WD cliff track to the coast, but the 4WD only gets 1/10 the use these days. As far as towing, electric vehicles are superior having 100% of rated power and 100% of rated torque available at all times from standstill to flat out, irrespective of road speed or revs, and you are never in the wrong gear because there aren't any. 
And we went off-grid to save money, not the planet. Buying an electric car was inspired by pondering what to do with our 'spare' electricity on sunny days, as we can't export back to the gird. The extra panels which face southwest are to give us enough spare capacity for cloudy winter days when the direction the panels face makes next to no difference, and to insulate the roof from the afternoon sun on those stinking hot summer days.

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## John2b

> Unless we, like most of the rest of the world, go nuclear and hydro. But hey .... no no no, the green index finger is wagging right to left repeatedly...

  The rest of the world is retiring from nuclear and it is not the "green agenda" driving this, it's fundamentally a consequence of the laws of physics and economics. The International Energy Agency expects a wave of retirements of ageing nuclear reactors and an unprecedented rate of decommissioning and anticipates 320 gigawatts (GW) of retirements from 2017 to 2050, which is about 80% of the current worldwide reactor fleet. There will likely be an average of 8‒11 permanent reactor shutdowns annually over the next few decades. This will add up to about 200 reactor shutdowns between 2014 and 2040. 
The era of nuclear decommissioning, which will entail:   A decline in the number of operating reactors.An increasingly unreliable and accident-prone reactor fleet as ageing sets in.Countless battles over lifespan extensions for ageing reactors.An internationalization of anti-nuclear opposition as neighboring countries object to the continued operation of ageing reactors (international opposition to Belgiums ageing reactors is a case in point ‒ and there are numerous other examples).Battles over and problems with decommissioning projects (e.g. the UK governments £100+ million settlement over a botched decommissioning tendering process).Battles over taxpayer bailout proposals for companies and utilities that havent set aside adequate funds for decommissioning and nuclear waste management and disposal.Battles over proposals to impose nuclear waste repositories and stores on unwilling or divided communities. 
According to Nuclear Energy Insider, European nuclear utilities face significant and urgent challenges with over a third of the continents nuclear plants to be shut down by 2025, and utilities facing a 118 billion shortfall in decommissioning and waste management funds.

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## InsaneAsylum

my concerns about electric cars:
- charge time
- battery life
- cost of battery replacement
- ability to travel any substantial distance without requiring a charge
- ability to tow or negotiate hills 
My sister in law has a second hand Nissan Leaf as their second car. their other car is an Isuzu MUX.
They live in a small country town and use the Leaf to zip into town and back but the MUX does everything else, long trips, towing etc.
They've mentioned that the Leaf really struggles to get over hills
They have not yet needed to replace the batteries, although I hope they're sitting down when they see the bill from what I've heard 
That said, I love cars and really enjoy driving. I'm not a fan of driverless cars or assisted driving technology. I like the raw feeling of the road through the steering wheel and the drive train through the gear stick when changing gears. call me old fashioned  :Biggrin:

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## DavoSyd

for those readers (not ranters) interested in cradle-to-grave analysis of cars, here's a relatively old but nonetheless pertinent and interesting LCA by Renault:  https://group.renault.com/wp-content...e-acv-2011.pdf 
(for the ranters - freely ignore the above, the cognitive dissonance would create meltdown!)

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## John2b

> They've mentioned that the Leaf really struggles to get over hills

  I don't know what is the problem with your inlaw's car if it struggles on a hill. When I put the boot in going up a steep hill in our Leaf the standard reaction of new passengers is a very loud "F*%rkkk"! It would easily exceed the pull of my previous BMW 330i up to 100kph or so. If fact it has the same torque throughout the entire rev range as the the E46 330's peak torque and is 500kg lighter.   

> They have not yet needed to replace the batteries, although I hope they're sitting down when they see the bill from what I've heard

  With about ½ million Leafs sold around the world there are plenty of aftermarket replacement battery developments underway. What's more, the old battery is a valuable commodity, for example in the US Nissan buys back old batteries for reprocessing and the changeover cost is about the same as the cost of 1 year of fuel for an ICE car.

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## John2b

> for those readers (not ranters) interested in cradle-to-grave analysis of cars, here's a relatively old but nonetheless pertinent and interesting LCA by Renault:

  The goal posts have moved quite a bit since that 2011 study because of the "greening" of electricity generation worldwide*, so the lifecycle CO2 emissions of current electric vehicles have decreased to an even smaller fraction of that of ICE vehicles. 
*For example UK doesn't burn coal for electricity anymore: Live monitoring of the UK electricity National Grid

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## DavoSyd

> The goal posts have moved quite a bit since that 2011 study because of the "greening" of electricity generation worldwide*, so the lifecycle CO2 emissions of current electric vehicles have decreased to an even smaller fraction of that of ICE vehicles. 
> *For example UK doesn't burn coal for electricity anymore: Live monitoring of the UK electricity National Grid

  absolutly! it actually used 2007 power grid mix data:

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## Marc

From an ad in cars' guide *Seller's Comments.*The Kangoo Z.E. has a real-world range of 200km, the market's biggest for electric vans. Available in long wheelbase with a standard 4m3 of load capacity, the Kangoo Z.E. is the perfect Zero Emissions urban delivery van or great for tradies.. Only 6 hours to charge.
call today for test drive.

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## Marc

The idiocy is so gargantuan that they actually think they are clever.    https://youtu.be/IwR3olAVozg

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## John2b

No one is telling people what to buy. Even if half the cars sold from today on were electric, fossil fuelled vehicles will outnumber electric vehicles for more than the next decade. It seems it will take a while for everyone to realise that unlike fossil fuel vehicles which must be refuelled "on the road" (unless you have a bowser at home) battery electric vehicles are refuelled when they are not being used, thus avoiding the inconvenience of having to find a service station whilst commuting.

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## Marc

John, it's not that at all, just the limitations of the battery technology. Eventually it will become possible to drive an electric car for 500 km between charges and charges be able to be done by swapping batteries on the run, or some other way that makes them less of a trade off.  
Your experience is very interesting. I imported a 4wd from Japan and remember how difficult it was to register. The NSW compliance mafia made it really hard for no real reason other than they could. I was a delinquent for the time the charade lasted.  
What was your experience in SA ? I notice that Nissan Leaf sell for less than 30k second hand with very little KM. 
Did you use TS export or someone else?

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## cyclic

Why are they called electric vehicles when they are obviously battery powered. ????????????????????????????????????????????????

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## Marc

They should be called cordless cars  :Rofl5:

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## John2b

> John, it's not that at all, just the limitations of the battery technology. Eventually it will become possible to drive an electric car for 500 km between charges and charges be able to be done by swapping batteries on the run, or some other way that makes them less of a trade off.  
> Your experience is very interesting. I imported a 4wd from Japan and remember how difficult it was to register. The NSW compliance mafia made it really hard for no real reason other than they could. I was a delinquent for the time the charade lasted.  
> What was your experience in SA ? I notice that Nissan Leaf sell for less than 30k second hand with very little KM. 
> Did you use TS export or someone else?

  I used J-Spec as an import agent. We had no problems whatsoever in complying, registering and comprehensively insuring the car. When I decided to import there were almost no secondhand Leafs in Australia, in fact there only 2 were listed on CarSales.com Australia wide in Nov/Dec 2018. The Nissan Leaf AZE0 model only acquired SEV accreditation in September 2018 allowing it to be imported to Australia, so I was a relatively early purchaser in December 2018. Now there are lots of dealer imported Leafs under the SEV scheme however I paid about $8-10k less than a similarly specified car to ours available from any dealer in Australia today. 
There are quite a few 4WD/off-road battery electric vehicles on the way. We will keep an eye out for a BEV4WD that gets SEV approval and may well buy one as soon as it happens. Apart from the obvious ownership cost savings of BEVs, they are a much better type of vehicle to own and operate because of their lack of service requirements and innate reliability. To be honest, recharging a BEV really isn't the issue that people who don't own one think it is - you charge it when you are not using it.

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## chrisp

> To be honest, recharging a BEV really isn't the issue that people who obviously don't own one think it is - you charge it when you are not using it.

  Exactly. There is a lot of over-focus on the recharge times, and some expectation that they should somehow recharge in the same time it takes to refill an ICE powered vehicle before they are viable. 
The reality is that EVs are mostly easier, cheaper and more convenient to recharge than it is to refill an ICE powered car. There is no need to drive to a petrol station, fill up, and pay. For most, it is simply drive home (or work?) and plug it in - and no detouring to ‘fill up”. 
Sure, most EVs are probably not going to be used for a long interstate trip, nor will they tow a big boat, but they again, most small city run-around ICE vehicles wouldn’t do it either. 
Its a little bit like comparing a mobile phone to a landline phone - they are similar in their basic function, but they are not the same. Mobile phones can go flat whereas you can talk for as long as you like on a landline without it going flat. Yet, most people are very happy to use a mobile phone as their main (only?) phone once they have tried one.

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## Jon

My local shopping centre has recharging bays.  Charge while you are doing the groceries. 
===

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## woodbe

> To be honest, recharging a BEV really isn't the issue that people who obviously don't own one think it is - you charge it when you are not using it.

  100% correct. 
People with petrol or diesel vehicles don't seem to know much about electric vehicles. I bought an electric car new in late 2014. It has been checked each year, and every second year they replace the brake fluids. Never needs to replace oils and other stuff like filters etc. The electric car goes fast, and goes slow when reduce the power on your foot. Hardly ever needs to use the brakes.  
It's fine for driving around the city, would be a bit harder to drive for long trips. I bought it for driving around the city. 
We put solar panels on the roof 2011, and it costs NOTHING to run the car or the house each year. It gets more $$ from solar during summer and not as many $$ in winter but over each year it is costing nothing to run the car and the house.  
Over our nearly 5 years, the cost of fuel for a petrol or diesel car has increased, but the cost of running our electric vehicle remains nothing, zero. 
The solar was installed in 2011 and the value from the the sun has not significantly changed over 8+ years.

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## METRIX

> John, it's not that at all, just the limitations of the battery technology. Eventually it will become possible to drive an electric car for 500 km between charges and charges be able to be done by swapping batteries on the run, or some other way that makes them less of a trade off.

  Marc, things have changed since you last looked at what range the current crop of electric vehicles can do on a charge, the decent ones can also do 0-100 in under 5 seconds, the best ones are doing it in 2.6 seconds, with Tesla Roadster II to be doing it in 1.9 sec !! with figures like these the time of ICE cars is coming to an end. 
Tesla Model X 594 Km 
Tesla Model s 565 Km
Jaguar I-Pace 470 Km
Hyundai Kona 449 Km
Kia Niro 455 Km  
The biggest hurdles we face here are. 
1: Having the infrastructure in place for charging the vehicle, the best ones are able to charge at 150Kw with 100Kw becoming the normal on the latest generation, Australia has dragged it's feet with setting up any infrastructure to support these vehicles, this coupled with the exorbitant high price of these vehicles and they are also hit with 33% LCT.  
2: Offering incentives to buy them, currently Australia gives a $100 reduction on rego for an electric vehicle, and you can get some low interest loans for purchasing them, this is such a joke in the US and Europe there are incentives as much as $7500, plus some countries offer 50% rego discount, or free rego, we are so far behind the 8 ball. 
3: Having a gov't who is not so tied up in pushing dead technology coal fired stations, electric cars are not something new, people who don't follow the progress of electric commonly say, we are just pushing the problem from fossil fuel to coal fired stations, this is the problem because the uptake of electric vehicles means we need to look at new ways of generating electricity, these ways are there and these ways are not Nuclear. 
4: The privatisation of our electricity, this is one of the biggest hurdles, not only for charging at home but for charging stations as the cost of electricity in Au is a joke 
The nay Sayers are just scared of the technology because they don't understand it, and they believe the crap put out by the petroleum industry, because they are the ones who will be the biggest losers from this. 
I look at it as a great time to be alive as we are witnessing a worldwide industry change from fossil based propulsion to electric based propulsion, bring it on I say.

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## phild01

I would like to jump 30 years if an unattended driverless battery (or hydrogen) box can get what I have in tow, across the great expanses of Australia.

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## John2b

“We have really focused on the off-road capability of these vehicles,” he said. “We have 14-inches (350mm) of dynamic ground clearance, we have a structural underbody, we have all-time all-wheel drive so we can go up 45-degree inlines, and we can accelerate from zero to 60mph (98km/h) in 3.0 seconds.
He added: “I can tow 10,000-pounds (4500kg). I’ve got a tent that I can throw onto the back of the truck, I’ve got 400-miles (640km) of range, I’ve got all-time all-wheel drive so I can do anything another vehicle can do, and then some. 
https://www.drive.com.au/news/rivian-electric-ute-confirmed-for-australia-121205

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## METRIX

> “We have really focused on the off-road capability of these vehicles,” he said. “We have 14-inches (350mm) of dynamic ground clearance, we have a structural underbody, we have all-time all-wheel drive so we can go up 45-degree inlines, and we can accelerate from zero to 60mph (98km/h) in 3.0 seconds.
> He added: “I can tow 10,000-pounds (4500kg). I’ve got a tent that I can throw onto the back of the truck, I’ve got 400-miles (640km) of range, I’ve got all-time all-wheel drive so I can do anything another vehicle can do, and then some. 
> https://www.drive.com.au/news/rivian-electric-ute-confirmed-for-australia-121205

  
These look like a winner, the storage compartment behind the back seats with integrated step is such a good / simple idea, the design possibilities of an electric vs conventional vehicle open up a whole new ballgame. 
For 4WD having less mechanical crap to get in the way allows the smart designers to utilize this new space better and allow the vehicle to have better specs, such as inclines, towing capacity, payload etc etc 
The only limiting factor on these, is if you really want to go offroad and do a trip that will require multiple fill-ups then this would be a problem as there ain't no charging stations in the bush. 
It's funny, Rivian were in discussions with GM to help them move out of the dinosaur age and into the future, GM became greedy and didn't want Rivian to supply technology / vehicles to any other manufacturers, in the end the deal fell through, so Ford and Amazon jumped in. 
Ford with $500 Million, Amazon with $700 Million, GM were too busy trying to strangle what Rivian could do and keep the pie all to themselves, Rivian said get stuffed we don't wan't to be tied to one brand as we are a technology company and want to sell the technology to whoever requires it, same as Rimac, so in the end GM has lost out (again). 
Here is a good article on the US bailout of the auto industry and what GM actually cost the gov't, Ford borrowed under $6Billion, and is on target to have it all payed back by 2020, GM borrows $51 Billion, when the bailout ended in 2013 the gov't lost 11.3 Billion in the deal, they should have just sold GM for scrap.  https://www.thebalance.com/auto-indu...rysler-3305670

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## Marc

So if you plug in a charging bay at the supermarket, how much does it cost to recharge.
And if you plug in at home? The bill will be atrocious. 
And how long till the excise tax will be added to the electricity because a few people charge a vehicle to the grid. 
A 4wd that can tow 4.5 tons must weight 3 tons and use a lot of juice to move around. 
Not really interested in 1 to 100 in one second or ten. 
Would have to upgrade the solar panels to a 6 kw in order to service an EV. My 1.5 kw from 10 years ago has already blown up the inverter and cost me $1000 extra. I think it is ready for the tip. 
So much for preventing pollution. I can see an exponential increase in pollution from this stuff.  
Still if an electric car can do 500 km between charges, that is the range of most fuel cars. I have long range tanks but that is not the norm. 
Recharge time with a 3 phase 50 amp plug should be not too bad. I have 3 phase at home and at the weekender. 
Cost of a decent size car is the issue, and the unknown of the cost of recharging. I don't see our government waiving the fuel excise that easily.

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## John2b

> They should be called cordless cars

   :2thumbsup:  The most useful thing I ever bought was a cordless drill.

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## John2b

> So if you plug in a charging bay at the supermarket, how much does it cost to recharge.
> And if you plug in at home? The bill will be atrocious. And how long till the excise tax will be added to the electricity because a few people charge a vehicle to the grid

  Electricity cost for a BEV car is about 1/5 of the fuel cost of an equivalent ICE car, but don't forget that unlike an ICE car there are next to zero service costs for a BEV car. 
Our BEV gets >7.5 kilometres per kilowatt hour on the hilly dirt roads around our place. A litre of petrol contains 9 kilowatt hours of energy, so our car gets the equivalent of about 70 kilometres per litre, or consumes the equivalent of 1.4 lt / 100 km. Internal combustion engines struggle to achieve a real world efficiency of 25% conversion under the optimum condition namely highway cruising and the rest of the time the efficiency is much, much worse, plus the energy in momentum is thrown away as waste heat every time you brake. An electric car is near 100% efficient all of the time and regenerative braking returns the energy in momentum back to electricity to recharge the battery - the disk brakes don't get used much and pads last >>100,000 km. 
Toll roads and congestion charges don't discriminate whether a vehicle is ICE or BEV - you can expect more of those charges, with or without a cordless car revolution.

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## METRIX

> Why do people buy electric cars?
> "Because they are idiots" would be my comment, but no, let's be honest, they deep down believe that they have a moral obligation towards "the environment".
> So they ignore and look the other way of the hundreds of components that pollute the many other countries that manufacture them, ignore the price tag that makes it an impossible proposition, ignore it's enormous limitations and trade ins, and then ... they run out of juice.
> Not to worry, there is always the generator.

  Looking at your comment above Marc, is really disappointing and makes no sense. 
Manufacturing is manufacturing, it doesn't matter what you are manufacturing it's going to have waste and byproducts, to simply say an electric car is making components which are polluting the environment is such a backwards thinking comment. 
You can't seriously think the manufacturing process for a conventionally powered car is an environmentally clean manufacturing process ?, because it's not. 
If certain countries have polluting manufacturing processes this is something the country needs to deal with, these countries pollute making anything, not just parts for electric cars. 
Comments like your's are put into peoples heads by the petroleum industry, and are then spread by the uneducated, get with the times Marc, do some research and you will find it's not all doom and gloom, that stupid picture is a classic example of propaganda. 
People that buy electric cars are people who actually want to do their bit for the environment, and understand we cannot continue to burn fossil fuels for energy. 
The rapid adoption of electric vehicles is highlighting a global problem of where we source our energy from, and how we have become complacent that it's ok to source energy from polluting sources, some will say Nuclear is the answer, no it's not, yes it's classified as clean energy, but it has waste products that are highly toxic for 1000 - 10,000 years, so it's definitely not clean, and we have seen what happens when you get greedy / stupid humans in charge of these power plants, Fukishima currenly has 250,000 tons of untreated waste stored and the pile is getting bigger every day, waste like this is far more serious than byproducts of manufacturing electric car components.    
Electrification of transport is only a good thing, as gov'ts worldwide (yes even our dinosaur gov'ts) have to rethink how we supply supplying energy, not just for the transportation shift but as a whole, we cannot continue the same path we have done forever, something 's gotta give, either we run out of resources or we kill ourselves trying.

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## Marc

I notice you say no service costs, however, it may have an electric motor but it is still a car, with brakes and a million relay and switches to go wrong and in need to service and repair. And don't forget battery life. Is there a place to service your car that does not rip you off? 
i imagine driving in BMW and tripping a timer at the driveway. $10 a minute  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> I notice you say no service costs, however, it may have an electric motor but it is still a car, with brakes and a million relay and switches to go wrong and in need to service and repair. And don't forget battery life. Is there a place to service your car that does not rip you off? 
> i imagine driving in BMW and tripping a timer at the driveway. $10 a minute

  Battery warranties are typically 8-10yr / 100,000km for electric vehicles, and that is performance warranty - they are considered faulty not for failure but for loosing more than a specified % of range/capacity. Anecdotally Nissan Australia stopped selling the first generation leaf because there was no money in after-sales service. Nissan Japan is not giving Australian Nissan dealers the option of not selling the second generation Leaf. 
With few moving parts electric cars are proving to be quite reliable with the Nissan Leaf battery electric rated one of the most reliable cars worldwide and one of the most reliable cars of the decade by Consumer Reports USA.

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## Marc

Metrix, your opinions are noted, however it is not as simple as you put it.
The push for alternative sources of energy, came from a false and fraudulent premise. Namely that CO2 is a problem. False.
It is false and it has an agenda and it has snowballed into a new and false religion. 
However ... despite what greenpeace claims that the worst that can happen to humanity is to find a new cheap source of energy ... it is obvious that petrol and diesel are going to run out eventually.
Electric vehicles are for now, the only safe, even when expensive choice.  
The problem now turns to ... how to charge the batteries?
The CO2 falsehood is hanging from our necks and weighting us down. We need an ever increasing amount of electricity thanks in part to the immigration ponzi scheme, and now we want to add electric cars that if adopted even in modest numbers will blow up our mediocre network. 
The only option to appease our power hunger is coal and hydro. Certainly not solar or wind, both highly polluting in their manufacturing process, in their vast use of land, and in the disposal process, unreliable and requiring massive subsidies and pushing the price of electricity to punitive levels.  
The only real debate is not electric car vs fuel car. Fuel will need to last for a very long time particularly in Australia were 90 % of goods are moved by truck. The time when we have an electric Mack Truck with 600 hp pulling a road train from sydney to perth are a long time away if ever. And a tractor and a harvester and a bulldozer, ad bobcat etc etc etc. 
The only real debate is how do we produce our electricity abundantly and cheaply. 
And the answer is all around the world. Coal. Because the CO2 boogeyman is false and a fraud
Nuclear? I don't know enough to rubbish nuclear, only that Europe has had nuclear for a long time. Eventually we will find a way to reuse the nuclear waste. 
And talking about waste, if there was a smidgeon of interest in reducing pollution of the real kind, not made up like CO2, we would have compulsory plastic recycling plants to turn plastic into fuel. It is cheap and low tech and can be made in one's own backyard, yet hardly anyone does it. Easier to toss in the ocean.  
The reality is that the CO2 fraud has turned everyone into a zealot pretend environmentalist, ignoring the facts and overlooking real pollutants like plastics and solar panels and wind turbines, because the end (reducing CO2) justifies the means.  
Sadly CO2 is not the enemy, it is everything else we do, including electric cars.

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## Jon

In regards to charging at my shopping centre, it is free and if you are interested there is a whole section on it on their web site. https://www.stanhopevillage.com.au/c...o-and-services
Scroll down a bit 
---

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## John2b

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading that Nissan Leaf has fixed price servicing at $120 with a two year interval - maybe that's in the US? The main item needing attention is the air-conditioning filter.

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## John2b

> The only real debate is how do we produce our electricity abundantly and cheaply. 
> And the answer is all around the world. Coal. Because the CO2 boogeyman is false and a fraud
> Nuclear? I don't know enough to rubbish nuclear, only that Europe has had nuclear for a long time. Eventually we will find a way to reuse the nuclear waste.

  Actually the proportion of electricity produced from coal and nuclear has been in decline for some decades and the decline is accelerating.  https://www.iea.org/statistics/electricity/

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## DavoSyd

> Looking at your comment above Marc, is really disappointing and makes no sense.

  Marc is one of the 74 people left on this planet  ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ that have faith that Earth is not being negatively impacted by the increasing amount of carbon dioxide emitted by humans in their day-to-day lives.

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## DavoSyd

> Actually the proportion of electricity produced from coal and nuclear has been in decline for some decades and the decline is accelerating.  https://www.iea.org/statistics/electricity/

   
some decent numbers there...

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## chrisp

> I notice you say no service costs, however, it may have an electric motor but it is still a car, with brakes and a million relay and switches to go wrong and in need to service and repair. And don't forget battery life. Is there a place to service your car that does not rip you off? 
> i imagine driving in BMW and tripping a timer at the driveway. $10 a minute

  
You might be confusing ‘service’ and ‘repair’. ICE cars have many moving parts that wear and will eventually require ‘repair’. 
Regarding electric vehicles, the motors are typically 3-phase induction motors - no brushes, no slip rings, and only bearing to wear out. They are pretty simple and very durable - like most 3-phase motors commonly used in industry. 
The only relay in the drive train that I can recall is the battery-pack isolator which is used to isolate the battery if the car is involved in an impact. Everything else is electronic.

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## Marc

Still Chris, I doubt very much that an electric car needs no maintenance. Electronic fail, electric parts fail, computers need calibrating etc. And the drivetrain is mechanical, I am sure the wheels don't turn by moral persuasion and the front end needs aligning and steering ball joints wear out and suspension goes bust etc etc etc
Anyway, surely it needs less attention than a conventional vehicle, but certainly not zero. And will it go for 400,000 km ? Not likely.  
Nevertheless that is a different issue.  
As for the predictable discordant voices, it is always the same situation. Those whose faith is centered in abolishing the imaginary CO2 boogeyman and that consistently and quixotically plink at the windmills, do so with assumed moral superiority, looking down to those who have seen through the thin veil of deceit and call the con a con. 
And the claim that what I know to be true has been put out by the oil companies, holds no water. It is blatantly obvious that the anti CO2 propaganda has trillions of subsidies pushing it and hundred of thousands of salaries depend from CO2 being bad. If overnight CO2 would be proven without doubt to be what it is, a ridiculously small proportion of the atmosphere and climate variations depending from sun and other natural and ever changing sources, the BS artist will have to rush to find another boogeyman. Not hard, mind you.  
One day the history books will show how humanity was duped into believing that 0.0012% of the atmosphere needed to be reduced in order for humans to survive ... what is it? 1/2 a degree hotter? One millimeter higher seas? 
The problem with religions is that they don't need proof. It is all in the faith. And there are so many faithful in search of a cause! 
Funniest part is that I am _not_ against electric cars. Not for a minute. I just find the idea that electric is good for the environment absurd. An electric car pollutes in it's manufacturing stage just as much if not more than a diesel or petrol, the absence of CO2 is meaningless and the additional demand that they will place on the network still to be addressed, not to mention that the government is not going to forego the loss in excise and find another way to tax us, most likely through even higher electricity cost. 
And what happens when the electric car is junk after say 8 or 10 years? Are we going to send it back to China? They don't want it.

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## John2b

The highest mileage by a Tesla electric car owner is now 880,000km. The long life is owed mostly to some particular traits of the battery-powered car. For example, unlike gasoline cars, Tesla vehicles require no traditional oil changes, fuel filter, spark plug replacements, or emission checks. For Tesla Model S owners, even brake pad replacements are rare, as the regenerative braking both returns energy to the battery and decelerates the vehicle. No moving parts within an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) also decrease vibration, one of the most impactful items towards the health of the car. 
In most ordinary situations, the only work done by the Tesla service staff within the inspections performed on these cars is simple wheel alignments, checking the tire condition, assessing replacement parts like key fob batteries and windshield wiper blades, and finally, installing the latest software update.

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## Marc

I like this one.  :Smilie:    
Although $250,000 compared to $40,000 for the nissan, must think about it ...  :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> I like this one.    
> Although $250,000 compared to $40,000 for the nissan, must think about it ...

  Ohhh, looks like someone has been doing some googling

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## Bros

> Tesla Model X 594 Km 
> Tesla Model s 565 Km
> Jaguar I-Pace 470 Km
> Hyundai Kona 449 Km
> Kia Niro 455 Km

   Are these VW figures or real ones.i remember Hans Tholstrum drove an astounding distance at some way out fuel consumption.

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## John2b

> Are these VW figures or real ones.i remember Hans Tholstrum drove an astounding distance at some way out fuel consumption.

  There are standard driving cycles for estimating energy consumption for BEVs, however the difficulty with quoting range for electric vehicles is that range can vary quite a lot due to load, speed, weather, heating, air conditioning, etc. 
More than 80% of the fuel energy in a ICE vehicle produces waste heat in the radiator, the tailpipe, and even the brakes, so the effect of load, speed, weather, etc doesn't cause that much variation in an ICE vehicle's range. The same is not true for a BEV vehicle which wastes very little energy, so every little bit used affects range. 
To give an idea of the amount of energy an ICE vehicle uses, 60 litres of fuel has the equivalent of 540 kWh of energy which is about 5 times as much energy as the electric cars with the biggest batteries, namely 5 times as much energy as electric cars that typically have ranges ~500+km. 
The equivalent energy of 60 litres of petrol or diesel in kWh would give a range greater than 4000 kilometres for our Leaf on the roads around us.

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## johnc

> Are these VW figures or real ones.i remember Hans Tholstrum drove an astounding distance at some way out fuel consumption.

  You may be refering to a fuel economy run in a VW Golf back in the '70's that achieved something astounding around 70mpg in the old money. However to do it they did a Melbourne to Sydney run sticking to optimum speed of about 70 to 80kph and used every fuel saving trick they could think of, minimal use of brakes, no hard acceration as little stop start motoring as possible and so on. Not real world but it showed what could be possible.

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## Uncle Bob

> You may be refering to a fuel economy run in a VW

  I thought he was talking of Diesel gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksw...ssions_scandal

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## Bros

> I thought he was talking of Diesel gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksw...ssions_scandal

  Correct

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## METRIX

> And what happens when the electric car is junk after say 8 or 10 years? Are we going to send it back to China? They don't want it.

  Do we do this currently with cars that come from Germany, Thailand, China, Italy, USA ? no we scrap them here what is the difference between an electric car being scrapped and a regular one just an engine and battery. 
Systems will be / already are in place in countries to deal with the new technology. 
Marc are you secretly a politician or work for the coal industry ?, you really seem very negative about the new technology. 
Don't worry I'm sure you can still drive your dinosaur mobile in 10 years time

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## METRIX

> Are these VW figures or real ones.i remember Hans Tholstrum drove an astounding distance at some way out fuel consumption.

  They are real figures as tested to AU standards, obviously these are not real world but close, because electric's can regenerate you can gain more k's on downhill sections. 
Tesla navigation takes this into account, so it knows how much you will use ascending your route and how much you will gain when descending and regen is working, these cars are very smart.

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## doovalacky

> My 1.5 kw from 10 years ago has already blown up the inverter and cost me $1000 extra. I think it is ready for the tip. 
> So much for preventing pollution. I can see an exponential increase in pollution from this stuff.

  You make the most ridiculous statements at times. A decent inverter comes with a 5 to 10 year warranty depending on brand. Mine is now 10yrs old, and many others will last just as long. Luck of the draw and not buying the cheap quality option.
Solar panels unless broken have a huge lifespan. Mine are rated at still 80% of output after 20years and its had no noticeable drop so far.  
The majority of the panel is glass and aluminum  both easily recyclable. 
2 inverters will happily work along side one another so there is no need to replace even if you upgraded to larger.

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## johnc

> I thought he was talking of Diesel gate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksw...ssions_scandal

  They really did have wonderful fuel economy, on trips our little diesel often slipped under 4.8l per 100k, pity about the pollution.

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## Whitey66

> Battery warranties are typically 8-10yr / 100,000km for electric vehicles, and that is performance warranty - they are considered faulty not for failure but for loosing more than a specified % of range/capacity. Anecdotally Nissan Australia stopped selling the first generation leaf because there was no money in after-sales service. Nissan Japan is not giving Australian Nissan dealers the option of not selling the second generation Leaf. 
> With few moving parts electric cars are proving to be quite reliable with the Nissan Leaf battery electric rated one of the most reliable cars worldwide and one of the most reliable cars of the decade by Consumer Reports USA.

  Running costs might be cheaper but i'd rather replace the battery in my ICE vehicle ($150 + 5 minutes labour) than a Nissan Leaf battery ($9000 + 5 hours labour). I've been a mechanic for over 35 years working on BMWs, Benz, and just about every other brand sold in Australia and the electrical system has always been the least reliable system in the car. Time will tell what the reliability will be like for the EVs.
Another issue if a lot of people buy them will be the drain on the grid. The grid has enough trouble coping in peak summer hours with air conditioning systems, imagine if every second household is drawing another 7,000 odd watts to charge their car?
Ideally people would be able to generate their own power to run their EV, but this is very hard to do for most people due to cost and location. 
Some interesting reading here - https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...es-022819.html
and here - https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/25/...rash-ev-fires/

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## Marc

> Do we do this currently with cars that come from Germany, Thailand, China, Italy, USA ? no we scrap them here what is the difference between an electric car being scrapped and a regular one just an engine and battery. 
> Systems will be / already are in place in countries to deal with the new technology. 
> Marc are you secretly a politician or work for the coal industry ?, you really seem very negative about the new technology. 
> Don't worry I'm sure you can still drive your dinosaur mobile in 10 years time

  No no secret political life Metrix, just common sense. 
As for electronic junk, I am afraid that an electric car scrap is not the same as a conventional car scrap. We already have no plan for solar panels scrap that end up in landfill. It is valid to ask what happens with an electric car after it's most likely shorter lifespan. Particularly it's battery. 
And we did use to send garbage back to China for decades. They now said no more. We never sent garbage to Germany.  
Considering that this "new technology" ... not so new since electric cars pre-date petrol cars, is sold as a "save the planet" concept, they should at least be biodegradable, edible or perhaps reusable as manure or something. As it stands, they seem to be very attractive for a handful of people who jump in early, and take advantage of cheap or free fuel whilst they stay under the radar. A bit like an able body having a disabled parking permit. 
Clearly not something that can be taken up by the majority due to the many pitfalls still to overcome.  
Just an observation. Electric cars pay no excise so they are scamming off those who pay the tax just like push bikes. They benefit from industry "stimulus" or other form of subsidies and to add insult to injury get offered free fuel. I say milk it till it lasts, good for you if you can do it. But please don't play the environmentally conscious card. That is a bit too much. 
Sure I like the Nissan Roadster, who doesn't? But there is no need to label others "dinosaur" because they favour one machine over another.  There are many reasons for people's preferences. I like Air Nail guns, you like battery driven one. I say battery driven are crap, you say the hose annoys you. We can work side by side no problem. 
The problem comes when changes are forced on people for other, usually commercial reasons or political one's, pretending it is for environmental reasons when they are purely to make money for a few, just like the global warming scam.

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## cyclic

:2thumbsup:  What he said

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## METRIX

> No no secret political life Metrix, just common sense.  
> As for electronic junk, I am afraid that an electric car scrap is not the same as a conventional car scrap. We already have no plan for solar panels scrap that end up in landfill. It is valid to ask what happens with an electric car after it's most likely shorter lifespan. Particularly it's battery. 
> And we did use to send garbage back to China for decades. They now said no more. We never sent garbage to Germany.  
> Considering that this "new technology" ... not so new since electric cars pre-date petrol cars, is sold as a "save the planet" concept, they should at least be biodegradable, edible or perhaps reusable as manure or something. As it stands, they seem to be very attractive for a handful of people who jump in early, and take advantage of cheap or free fuel whilst they stay under the radar. A bit like an able body having a disabled parking permit. 
> Clearly not something that can be taken up by the majority due to the many pitfalls still to overcome.  
> Just an observation. Electric cars pay no excise so they are scamming off those who pay the tax just like push bikes. They benefit from industry "stimulus" or other form of subsidies and to add insult to injury get offered free fuel. I say milk it till it lasts, good for you if you can do it. But please don't play the environmentally conscious card. That is a bit too much. 
> Sure I like the Nissan Roadster, who doesn't? But there is no need to label others "dinosaur" because they favour one machine over another.  There are many reasons for people's preferences. I like Air Nail guns, you like battery driven one. I say battery driven are crap, you say the hose annoys you. We can work side by side no problem. 
> The problem comes when changes are forced on people for other, usually commercial reasons or political one's, pretending it is for environmental reasons when they are purely to make money for a few, just like the global warming scam.

  Marc, you really do need to do some research on subjects, you mention common sense, sorry mate all I see in your comments here are propaganda.   

> As for electronic junk, I am afraid that an electric car scrap is not the same as a conventional car scrap.

  Yes your right this "junk" you refer to, ist' not actually junk but it's a valuable resource even more so than what's found in an ICE car, such as large amounts of copper, aluminium, steel, glass, precious metals, not to mention the battery packs are already being re purposed from write-off cars into other industries let alone the amount of raw materials inside them, it's not a matter of simply crushing a car like a conventional ICE vehicle, but rather taking out the valuable stuff then crushing whats left to recycle it, that part of the process is no difference to regular cars.   

> We already have no plan for solar panels scrap that end up in landfill.

  Rubbish, recycling of Solar panels already exists, not only worldwide but also in Australia, Adelaide based company Reclaim PV is onto this, so there is no justification to throw them in landfill.
This is a worldwide problem because so many panels haven't delivered their life expectancy due to poor manufacturing (ie cheap panels from Asia), recycling  of these is expected to be a big industry in the coming years. 
Just like any other product, such as plumbing, electrical wires, the raw materials can be recovered and reused, why ? because they are worth money, there is no need to be throwing them in the tip as you mentioned earlier. 
Same as your inverter, this is what's classified as e-waste, Australia already has a well established e-waste disposal process, the devices are broken down into their raw materials and recovered, not only because of the environmental benefits, but because the raw materials are worth money, below is a list of drop off points FYI.  https://www.environment.gov.au/prote...rop-off-points   

> It is valid to ask what happens with an electric car after it's most likely shorter lifespan. Particularly it's battery.

  Of course it's a valid question, and one that does need answering the last thing we want is stock piles of dead batteries.
In 2008, a not for profit division called ABRI, was setup, this includes many partners in the industry who manufacture, use and distribute batteries, the sole purpose is to ensure the correct recovery and recycling of dead batteries. https://batteryrecycling.org.au/about-abri/our-vision/   

> And we did use to send garbage back to China for decades. They now said no more. We never sent garbage to Germany.

  Correct, and we should not have been doing this, and China should not have been accepting this, it's good the rubbish is now here so we need to take ownership of it and deal with the problem here, which we are not.   

> As it stands, they seem to be very attractive for a handful of people who jump in early, and take advantage of cheap or free fuel whilst they stay under the radar. A bit like an able body having a disabled parking permit.

  Not really, the early adopters are paying the price for being early adopter, being $$$, these cars currently are not cheap, Teslas here cost $115K up to $164K, so your argument of cheap of free fuel has no validity,.
Like anything early adopters will pay a hefty price so the technology can mature and eventually the Joe citizen can buy a vehicle for 40K, yes there are cheaper electric options here but they are all still more expensive than an ICE equivalent.    

> Just an observation. Electric cars pay no excise so they are scamming off those who pay the tax just like push bikes. They benefit from industry "stimulus" or other form of subsidies and to add insult to injury get offered free fuel. I say milk it till it lasts, good for you if you can do it. But please don't play the environmentally conscious card. That is a bit too much.

  And so they should, just like any new expensive technology, when you put your solar cells up, did you get a gov't subsidy?, if not bad luck, many thousands of people did, just like free insulation, free LED globes and many other free things we get here so again this argument is not valid, as answered above.   

> Sure I like the Nissan Roadster, who doesn't?

  Roadster is a Tesla Vehicle not Nissan   

> But there is no need to label others "dinosaur" because they favour one machine over another.

  Reference to Dinosaur is in relation to fossil fuel, you do realise "fossil" fuel is derived from the remains of plants and animals ie: dinosaurs that died millions of years ago.   

> There are many reasons for people's preferences. I like Air Nail guns, you like battery driven one. I say battery driven are crap, you say the hose annoys you. We can work side by side no problem

  Of course we can, choice is a wonderful thing and we are lucky in Australia because we can choose to drive what we want, if you want to drive a V8 Petrol, Diesel, Gas, Hybrid or electric it's your choice, each one has it's advantages and disadvantages. 
Like your comment above, "I say battery driven are crap" that's because you haven't used them, so your entire argument on here has been electric vehicles are crap, that's because you don't own one, you haven't done any research into the entire industry and you believe what "other" non electric vehicle owners say.   

> The problem comes when changes are forced on people for other, usually commercial reasons or political one's, pretending it is for environmental reasons when they are purely to make money for a few, just like the global warming scam

  Nobody is forcing you to do anything, has someone from the secret service come around and taken all your ICE equipment and told you to replace it with electric equivalent or else ?. 
Electric vehicle is just the next worldwide move of propulsion, and why wouldn't it be, we finally have the technology to make it viable, you can set up an off grid charging system at home if you want and not have to pay exorbitant prices at the pump to buy a polluting product that has been proved to have detrimental health issues on humans, it's a no brainier if you ask me. 
Marc, I don't know why you are so upset about the new technology it's just evolution, just like horse and cart to ICE.
I think it's great and can't wait for it to happen mainstream, and yes I do like ICE based cars, but the same time I can't wait for this new technology to go mainstream, the time has come to look a more sustainable technology for the future.

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## woodbe

Everyone can make their own opinion about electric cars vs a petrol or diesel car. 
We decided it is way better to have an electric car for the emissions driving the vehicle.  
It makes more emissions building the batteries for the electric car compared to the normal petrol/diesel cars, but it reduces emissions running the electric car over time.  
And, if you have solar panels on your house, the vehicle uses way less emissions compared to the electricity made from coal.  
Engineering Explained more here:

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## Marc

Esflow is a roadster and is Nissan. Tesla makes a roadster but costs 5 times more. 
No one is forcing new technology for now. That will come by means of differential pricing. For now the forcing down the throat comes in the form of moral superiority, ie "looking after the environment" that is a false argument for what CO2 is concerned. 
Upset? Who is upset?

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## Whitey66

> Just an observation. Electric cars pay no excise so they are scamming off those who pay the tax just like push bikes. They benefit from industry "stimulus" or other form of subsidies and to add insult to injury get offered free fuel.

  Huh? How are push bike riders scamming anyone who pays tax? Every bike rider I know pays tax and also pays tax on all the other vehicles they own.

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## METRIX

> Esflow is a roadster and is Nissan. Tesla makes a roadster but costs 5 times more. 
> No one is forcing new technology for now. That will come by means of differential pricing. For now the forcing down the throat comes in the form of moral superiority, ie "looking after the environment" that is a false argument for what CO2 is concerned. 
> Upset? Who is upset?

  ESFLOW is concept, Tesla Roadster is real production of it will be in 2020 with thousands of pre-orders already made (money upfront).
I can say the ESFLOW certainly won't be $40k, the new Nissan Leaf will be priced at $49,990 plus ORC, so it's going to be sometime until Nissan can release something that looks like that for $40K. 
Yes the Tesla Roadster is priced at 250K, for that you are getting a 200Kw battery, 1000Km range (at highway speeds), 350KW DC charging ability, 0-100 in 1.8 Seconds, 400kph top speed, try find anything road legal ICE based that can come near the performance of this thing, you can't. 
The only competitor is the Rimac Concept II and is cost a princely sum of $2.1 Million, anything else under 2.0sec is not road legal. 
There is no moral superiority, have you spoken to any electric car drivers, you should, you might find they wanted a vehicle that is quiet, one that does not require the servicing a conventional vehicle, one that can do supercar 0-100 without the supercar price and one that has lots of technology because they actually like the high tech gadgets. 
Maybe you have been speaking to Prius drivers, well they are not an electric car.

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## Marc

*Are electric cars worse for the environment?*  Crunch the numbers, and it looks like all those subsidies might be counterproductive. By JONATHAN LESSER 05/15/2018 05:06 AM EDT  If you believe the headlines, traditional automobiles are speeding toward a dead end. All those V8s, V6s and turbocharged vehicles we’ve grown to love will soon be replaced by squadrons of clean, whisper-quiet, all-electric vehicles. And if you believe the headlines, the environment will be much better off.  Policymakers at every level have done their part to push electric vehicles by creating a tankful of subsidies. Thanks to laws signed by both George W. Bush and Barack Obama, electric-vehicle buyers can feast on federal tax credits of up to $7,500 that reduce the initial purchase cost of their vehicles. 
Not to be outdone, many states also dangle their own mix of goodies for electric vehicle buyers, including purchase rebates as large as $5,000, additional rebates for vehicle chargers, and free use of public charging stations—which, of course, are only “free” because they’re subsidized by ratepayers and taxpayers. Some states even give electric vehicles preferential access to carpool lanes. 
Then there are the electric vehicle mandates. In January, California Gov. Jerry Brown decreed that 5 million electric vehicles must be on his state’s roads by 2025, along with 250,000 charging stations. Eight other states are following California’s lead. One California lawmaker has even introduced legislation to ban all internal combustion vehicles by 2040. All of this might make sense if electric vehicles, as their supporters claim, were truly likely to reduce air pollution and tackle climate change. But are they? 
To answer that question, I used the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s most recent long-term forecasts for the number of new electric vehicles through 2050, estimated how much electricity they’d use, and then figured out how much pollution that electricity would generate, looking at three key pollutants regulated under the U.S. Clean Air Act—sulfur dioxide (SO2), oxides of nitrogen (NOX), and particulates—as well as CO2 emissions. I compared them to the emissions of new gasoline-powered vehicles, using the EIA’s “real world” miles-per-gallon forecast, rather than the higher CAFE standard values. 
What I found is that widespread adoption of electric vehicles nationwide will likely _increase air pollution compared with new internal combustion vehicles. You read that right: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution._ _
That might sound counterintuitive: After all, won’t replacing a 30-year old, smoke-belching Oldsmobile with a new electric vehicle reduce air pollution? Yes, of course. But that’s also where many electric vehicle proponents’ arguments run off the road: they fail to consider just how clean and efficient new internal combustion vehicles are. The appropriate comparison for evaluating the benefits of all those electric vehicle subsidies and mandates isn’t the difference between an electric vehicle and an old gas-guzzler; it’s the difference between an electric car and a newgas car. And new internal combustion engines are really clean. Today’s vehicles emit only about 1% of the pollution than they did in the 1960s, and new innovations continue to improve those engines’ efficiency and cleanliness._ _
And as for that electric car: The energy doesn’t come from nowhere. Cars are charged from the nation’s electrical grid, which means that they’re only as “clean” as America’s mix of power sources. Those are getting cleaner, but we still generate power mainly by burning fossil fuels: natural gas is our biggest source of electricity, and is projected to increase. And coal, while still declining, will remain the second largest source of electricity for some time. (Third is nuclear power, which doesn’t generate emissions but has other byproducts that worry some environmentalists.) Even with large increases in wind and solar generation, the EIA projects that the nation’s electric generating mix will be just 30% renewable by 2030. Based on that forecast, if the EIA’s projected number of electric vehicles were replaced with new internal combustion vehicles, air pollution would actually decrease—and this holds true even if you include the emissions from oil refineries that manufacture gasoline._ _
As for states like California with stringent mandates to use more renewable energy for their power grid, they also have the highest electric rates in the continental US, 50% higher than the US average. And electric rates in those states just keep increasing. So it’s a cleaner power mix, but makes recharging your car more expensive. The higher the electric rate, the lower the incentive for a new car buyer to purchase an electric vehicle._ _
As for greenhouse-gas emissions, my analysis shows that electric vehicles will reduce them compared to new internal combustion vehicles. But based on the EIA’s projection of the number of new electric vehicles, the net reduction in CO2emissions between 2018 and 2050 would be only about one-half of one percent of total forecast U.S. energy-related carbon emissions. Such a small change will have no impact whatsoever on climate, and thus have no economic benefit._   _So, if electric-vehicle subsidies don’t help the environment, what—or who—do they help? Most electric-vehicle buyers are far wealthier than average Americans. A nationwide survey in 2017 found that 56% had household incomes of at least $100,000 and 17% had household incomes of at least $200,000. (In 2016, median household income for the US as a whole was less than $58,000.) So it’s fair to say the subsidies disproportionately benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor, who cannot afford to buy even subsidized electric vehicles or live in their own homes to take advantage of residential chargers or solar panels._ _
Not only that, the wires and charging stations needed to charge all those electric vehicles will be paid for by all ratepayers, further raising electric rates. And as more wealthy customers install solar panels to charge their electric vehicles, the costs to provide them back-up power will fall on those who cannot afford to do so._ _In effect, the wealthy owners of electric vehicles will enjoy the benefits of their clean, silent cars, while passing on many of the costs of keeping their vehicles on the road to everyone else, especially the poor._ _
To be sure, electric cars are impressive. Some are quicker off the line than a Formula 1 race car. But there is no economic or environmental justification for the many billions of dollars in subsidies that America is already paying to speed their adoption._ _
So what to do? First, Congress should immediately terminate those electric-vehicle tax credits, which just benefit the wealthy. Congress should also eliminate zero-emissions credits, which electric-vehicle manufacturers have used to boost their bottom line – $860 million for Tesla alone in the last three years. And third, states should eliminate their various subsidies for electric vehicles and charging infrastructure, which are also paid for disproportionately by the poor and are contributing to rising electric rates._ _
Electric vehicle subsidies and mandates share an unfortunate, and all too common trait with other government policies: They’re based on “conventional wisdom” that turns out to be wrong. Wealthy consumers who have purchased Teslas and Chevy Bolts primarily to signal their green bona fides for their friends and neighbors, and who have socialized many of the costs of their purchases to those who are less well-off, might wish to take a closer look at the numbers. Their hands may not be quite so clean as they believe._ _
Jonathan Lesser is the President of Continental Economics, an economic and regulatory consulting firm. His new report, “Short Circuit: The High Cost of Electric Vehicle Subsidies” was published by the Manhattan Institute on May 15._ *Authors:*  _Jonathan Lesser_

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## Marc

I know a person who after lobbying unsuccessfully a south american country for subsidies to build electric cars in the eighties, and after scamming the locals of personal contributions, moved to California where he successfully scammed the local government of subsidies for the last 25 years, without ever producing a single car, calling himself an expert and a liaison person in the industry, displays fantastic websites and his verbosity and futuristic predictions are breath taking in it's emptiness. Every second word he uses is "the environment"

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## PhilT2

https://www.energyandpolicy.org/less...tric-vehicles/ 
tl;dr  Climate denier paid by fossil fuel industry lies about research.

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## METRIX



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## Marc

Aah the beauty of religious beliefs! 
He does not "believe" in global warming, therefore he can not say that electric cars will do zip to reduce CO2. 
It will have to come from a believer in order to be credible. 
Believe it or not.  
Save the planet! Buy an electric car! Don't be a dinosaur! A denier! 
You are as funny as ever PhilT from Logan. 
That Aston Martin is good looking Metrix. I can see the next James Bond in it no problem  :Smilie:

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## PhilT2

> Aah the beauty of religious beliefs! 
> He does not "believe" in global warming, therefore he can not say that electric cars will do zip to reduce CO2. 
> It will have to come from a believer in order to be credible. 
> Believe it or not.  
> Save the planet! Buy an electric car! Don't be a dinosaur! A denier! 
> You are as funny as ever PhilT from Logan. 
> That Aston Martin is good looking Metrix. I can see the next James Bond in it no problem

  I guess that if you post poor quality research by a an unqualified writer who fails to declare strong conflict of interest then the only thing left to do is change the subject.

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## Marc

_Disclamer 
The author of this article is alleged to have dandruff and therefore may be a recipient of Palmolive's subsidies. _ *  
Electric Vehicle Subsidies Bring Unintended Consequences* Jeremy Alicandri Contributor  __  _November 25, 2018, Toronto, Canada. Tesla cars parked at the Sherway Garden's Shopping Mall parking lot, using their free charging station to fill up on energy._ _ GETTY_   _Earlier this month, the Trump Administration threatened to end federal tax credits for electric vehicles (EVs). Soon after, Congress decided it would not expand the EV federal tax credit, much to the detriment of automakers and potential EV buyers. But despite the disappointment this poses for many, it’s important to understand how government subsidies are bringing unintended consequences to the markets where they are issued._  _A trip down memory lane reminds us that, for many years, European governments used lower taxes on diesel fuel to encourage the purchase of diesel vehicles over gasoline vehicles, citing superior fuel economy and reduced pollution as the reason. But decades later, diesel proved to be anything but environmentally friendly, and Europe was forced to ban diesel vehicles as they became a major cause of air pollution and smog.  But despite the mistakes learned from diesel, Europe, China, and other countries are moving to replace gasoline-powered vehicles with what again appears to be the more environmentally friendly alternative—electric vehicles._  _Nearly every major global automaker is planning to convert all of its models to some form of battery power, but these risky and ambitious investments are being made on the assumption that future developments can overcome the current financial disadvantages of EVs. Battery costs raise EV prices to a level well above comparably-sized internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, a premium that is not offset by the elimination of gasoline expenses. As a result, governments have tried to offset the unfavorable economics of EVs using a variety of cash incentives and other perks to induce the purchase of electric vehicles in their efforts for a “greener future.”_   _The government of Norway has been very successful at raising the level of electric cars on its roads by offering various incentives, which are, ironically, supported by an economy that is wealthy because of crude oil production. Norwegian EV drivers have access to bus lanes, discounted parking and tolls, and are exempt from various vehicle-related taxes. But Norway rolled back some of its incentives when unintended consequences surfaced. For example, when three out of four vehicles in bus lanes were electric cars, the congestion meant that Oslo’s buses couldn’t keep to their schedules, and users of “greener” mass transportation were severely inconvenienced. In another example, the Netherlands rolled back some its generous EV subsidies after it’s €19,000 euro per vehicle tax credit (USD 21,600) made the small nation the top selling European market for the ultra-expensive Tesla Model S._  _Loss of gasoline tax revenues is another unintended consequence of EVs, forcing states (even EV-leader California) to impose various fees on EV and hybrid owners to compensate for lost tax revenues. Many have argued that the burden of financing critical road projects, which are funded in large part by gasoline taxes, can’t fall on the portion of the population that owns the oldest and least fuel-efficient vehicles, while states use precious tax funds to subsidize the purchase of $100,000 sports cars (just because they are electric). As EVs proliferate, government-mandated fees are increasing in amount and frequency, but it’s unclear if these fees will be enough to offset lost gasoline tax revenue._  _There are also many unanswered questions, and potential unintended consequences, impacting the lifetime ownership economics of electric vehicles as well as the societal burden to accommodate this transition. Who will build and invest in charging infrastructure in our cities and homes, including multi-family buildings? What is the impact of millions of vehicles charging simultaneously on the electric power grid, especially on transformer life (after all, there are currently 275.1 million vehicles on U.S. roads today, of which only 800,000 are EVs)? How will car owners adjust to the shorter life of EVs, as a result of a battery lifespan of no more than ten years (with significant degradation beginning at five years)? Battery replacements could potentially cost a high multiple of the current value of the car itself, whereas the average ICE vehicle lasts sixteen years._  _Despite all the economic issues related to EVs, perhaps the most surprising and unintended consequence is, of all things, pollution. Much of the electricity that powers EVs is produced by “dirty energy,” even in the U.S., which means in many markets powering an EV results in more air pollution than it avoids. As Herbert Diess, CEO of Volkswagen AG explained, “renewable energy is a must. If you don't have renewable energy or at least a low carbon share of energy, then you're driving on coal instead of oil, and it doesn't make sense.” There are also issues resulting from the improper disposal of end-of-life batteries. Less than 10% of former electric vehicle batteries are recycled because doing so doesn’t make economic sense. In comparison, as a result of becoming an economically viable industry, nearly 100% of the parts in gas-powered vehicles, including the lead-acid battery, are recycled._  _As Europe bans its once beloved diesel engine, many countries around the world have convinced themselves that EVs are the answer, and that might be true if accelerated EV research addresses the many problems that surround electric vehicles. But until then, governments and the EV industry must first overcome obstacles they have failed to address; if not, more unintended consequences will result._   _Jeremy Alicandri Contributor I provide strategy-level consulting services to companies within the automotive industry. Director @ Maryann Keller & Advisors. NYC-based. _

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## Marc

The reality once more smacks in the face, yet is ignored due to doctrinal induced blindness.  
There are market designers, market developers, and market followers.  
Market designers are very few, always unknown visionaries who plot from the shadows and pull strings to make things happen long term. You may know of their existence, actions and agendas in 50 years ... may be.
Market developers are people who became prominent in other fields, like the arts, acting, politics etc, and sell their influence to the cause for a fee. High level spruikers will lobby and argue with great passion and are real artists in making you believe that unless you act according to their will, you are a moron, a real nobody, a dinosaur, retrograde, a real drag on humanity. Surprisingly, their complete lack of qualifications does not bother the fanatics that follow them one little bit. 
Market followers are those among us who follow the latest trend regardless of any logic. The need to be in tune with the latest is paramount and their example is followed by others who also want to be in tune with the latest fad.  
Electric cars is but an offspring of "global warming". We must stop the planet from heating up, (even when it is not heating up) and we can do so by using electric cars that "emit" less CO2. 
The fact that no one is game to tell us how much we will cool the planet by using electric cars is but one unanswered question. After all the numbers are simple, 0.04% of the atmosphere is CO2, the alleged culprit of all the terrible global warming that is not happening and the 9 meters of sea rises that is not occuring. 
We (humanity as a whole) contribute 3% of that 0.04%, that is 0.0012% of the atmosphere. 
If humanity disappeared overnight, the effect on the alleged global warming would be ... zero. 
So why do we want electric cars?
Well first of all they are absolutely sexy and incredibly fast and modern and sleek, ride on cheap and even free fuel and I want one too. 
Yet I am aware also that just like solar panels on the roof, my electric car will be paid by all those who do not have an electric car, and the few advantages of my EV will be as long lasting as they remain outside the reach of the average joe who is subsidising my EV and will do so until the government reverts the unsustainable subsidies and perks.  
It's catch 22 all over but hey ... don't be a dinosaur Marc. EV are "the future" 
In the sixties I was told that in the year 2000 all cars will fly.
Still waiting for one.

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## InsaneAsylum

> I don't know what is the problem with your inlaw's car if it struggles on a hill. When I put the boot in going up a steep hill in our Leaf the standard reaction of new passengers is a very loud "F*%rkkk"! It would easily exceed the pull of my previous BMW 330i up to 100kph or so. If fact it has the same torque throughout the entire rev range as the the E46 330's peak torque and is 500kg lighter.  
> With about ½ million Leafs sold around the world there are plenty of aftermarket replacement battery developments underway. What's more, the old battery is a valuable commodity, for example in the US Nissan buys back old batteries for reprocessing and the changeover cost is about the same as the cost of 1 year of fuel for an ICE car.

  Thanks, nice to hear from someone else who has a Leaf. They're in NZ by the way and we're heading over at Christmas time, so I'll be able to experience it first hand as we're going to borrow their Leaf while we're there.

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## Uncle Bob

> The reality once more smacks in the face, yet is ignored due to doctrinal induced blindness.

  Oh the ironicness (is that a word? It should be) in this is highly amusing  :Smilie:

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## DavoSyd

the word is actually just irony

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## chrisp

... blended with hypocrisy. I always find it amusing when Marc, who sets aside all science that doesn’t suit his agenda, claims others are following a religion!

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## Marc

> Oh the ironicness (is that a word? It should be) in this is highly amusing

  *Early* history In 1828, Ányos Jedlik invented an *early* type of *electric* motor, and created a small model *car* powered by his new motor. In 1834, Vermont blacksmith Thomas Davenport built a similar contraption which operated on a short, circular, electrified track. 
Ironic? Ironically? Irony?  An old man turned ninety-eight
He won the lottery and died the next day
It's a black fly in your Chardonnay
It's a death row pardon two minutes too late
Isn't it ironic, don't you think 
It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid
It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought, it figures 
Mr. Play It Safe was afraid to fly
He packed his suitcase and kissed his kids good-bye
He waited his whole damn life to take that flight
And as the plane crashed down he thought
"Well, isn't this nice."
And isn't it ironic, l don't you think 
It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid
It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought, it figures 
Well, life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
When you think everything's okay and everything's going right
And life has a funny way of helping you out when
You think everything's gone wrong and everything blows up
In your face 
A traffic jam when you're already late
A no-smoking sign on your cigarette break
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife
It's meeting the man of my dreams
And then meeting his beautiful wife
And isn't it ironic, don't you think
A little too ironic, and yeah I really do think 
It's like rain on your wedding day
It's a free ride when you've already paid
It's the good advice that you just didn't take
Who would've thought, it figures Well, life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
And life has a funny way of helping you out

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## Whitey66

Is it ironic that the song you posted has no ironies in it Marc ? 
So what's the deal in Australia with public charging stations?
Are all the fill up stations like the ones the NRMA have installed, free to use? 
Edit: Just checked and the NRMA ones are free for NRMA members. So who is going to pay for the electricity? The people who don't have EVs of course.
Are the other charging stations free as well?
I might buy an electric car just to drive it to the charge station, charge it up for free then drive home and power my house for free off the car battery  :2thumbsup: 
If you can't beat em, join em.

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## Marc

Better still ... load a truck with a battery bank, charge it at the NRMA station and bring it back and plug it into your solar battery bank.

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## METRIX

> Is it ironic that the song you posted has no ironies in it Marc ? 
> So what's the deal in Australia with public charging stations?
> Are all the fill up stations like the ones the NRMA have installed, free to use? 
> Edit: Just checked and the NRMA ones are free for NRMA members. So who is going to pay for the electricity? The people who don't have EVs of course.
> Are the other charging stations free as well?
> I might buy an electric car just to drive it to the charge station, charge it up for free then drive home and power my house for free off the car battery 
> If you can't beat em, join em.

  The chargers are currently free for anyone to use (fair usage policy applies), NRMA have stated in the future they will continue to be free for NRMA members, and non members will pay a fee. 
This is no different to the US, there are plenty of free chargers at businesses, the running costs are paid for by the business who host's them.
This is just an initial incentive for people to use these chargers, NRMA is installing charging networks throughout Australia. 
I don't see any problems with the current policy of them being free, early adopters are just getting a bit of a free ticket, lucky them.

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## METRIX

> Better still ... load a truck with a battery bank, charge it at the NRMA station and bring it back and plug it into your solar battery bank.

  Ahh, I think they have already thought of that, and the battery bank will cost you many thousands of $$$ would not be a viable option.

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## Marc

No one can see the inequity of a business owned by shareholders who decides unilaterally to donate to those with electric cars free fuel, paid for the rest of the shareholders? More carbon dioxide induced blindness?

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## Jon

> Is it ironic that the song you posted has no ironies in it Marc ? 
> So what's the deal in Australia with public charging stations?
> Are all the fill up stations like the ones the NRMA have installed, free to use? 
> Edit: Just checked and the NRMA ones are free for NRMA members. So who is going to pay for the electricity? The people who don't have EVs of course.
> Are the other charging stations free as well?
> I might buy an electric car just to drive it to the charge station, charge it up for free then drive home and power my house for free off the car battery 
> If you can't beat em, join em.

  Shopping centres offer free charging as incentive to shop ther

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## SilentButDeadly

> No one can see the inequity of a business owned by shareholders who decides unilaterally to donate to those with electric cars free fuel, paid for the rest of the shareholders? More carbon dioxide induced blindness?

  There's no inequity in what the NRMA are doing...just a metric truckload of forward planning.  
They are looking to maintain their shareholders value into the future by providing a service and developing & operating infrastructure that none of the fuel or car companies are prepared to develop without government investment/subsidies.  
Let's face it...few of the car companies will even contemplate bringing in their electric vehicles unless both State and Federal government's cave in and offer subsidies to these companies that allow them to profit whilst offering the electric vehicles at prices that most punters will actually be prepared to pay. 
I'm sure as heck not going to stump up fifty grand for a small electric Hyundai, Kia or Nissan. But then I'm not about to stump up fifty grand for an ICE powered car either...

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## PhilT2

[QUOTE=Marc;1094708]No one can see the inequity of a business owned by shareholders who decides unilaterally to donate to those with electric cars free fuel, paid for the rest of the shareholders? More carbon dioxide induced blindness?[/QUOTE 
If you don't like what they're doing don't become a shareholder. Lots of other companies give stuff away as a promotion; why not them? And how much are they really giving away? I don't know about the NRMA but I bet the shopping centres mostly only allow the slow charge rate. So how much free power can you get in the time it takes to do the shopping? $1...$2?

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## METRIX

> No one can see the inequity of a business owned by shareholders who decides unilaterally to donate to those with electric cars free fuel

  No 
I'm sure NRMA has done a business case study before deciding to invest 10 Million on installing chargers, to quote from their website, and notice the Terms and conditions below that  The future of cars is electric and just as the NRMA was there to help Australia navigate the rise of the automobile 98 years ago, we are helping future generations navigate this new era of electric vehicles. 
That's why we've committed $10 million to build one of Australia's largest electric vehicle fast charging networks.  Free for Members, this network will grow to more than 40 electric vehicle fast chargers covering 95% of Members' road trips. Lowering the overall cost of electric vehicle ownership, we're improving Australia's charger accessibility so you can keep moving, long into the future.   *Terms and conditions*   These terms and conditions ("terms") apply to the provision of NRMA EV (Electric Vehicle) Network Charging services by the National Roads and Motorists Association Limited (referred to as "NRMA", "we" or "us") to any individual user of any Electric Vehicle Chargers as part of our Electric Vehicle Fast Charging Network Service.
It is a condition of our providing the Electric Vehicle Fast Charging Network Service that you accept these terms. These terms, as also appearing on our website form the entire statement of contract between us. These terms are legally binding on you and us.
Free for Members, this network will grow to more than 40 electric vehicle fast chargers covering 95% of Members' road trips. Lowering the overall cost of electric vehicle ownership, this initiative's goal is to improve Australia's charger accessibility so you can keep moving, long into the future.
The NRMA Electric Vehicle Fast Charging Network
You acknowledge and agree that:  NRMA is not liable to you or any other person for any disruption or interruption to the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network service caused by any circumstances beyond NRMA's reasonable control, including faults or defects or circumstances that arise due to incompatibility with your vehicle including an inability to charge or mobilise your vehicle, the actions or conduct of other users, the enforcement of parking restrictions by law enforcement officials including any fines issued while using the EV Charger or any Force Majeure event; andNRMA uses reasonable efforts to ensure the suitability and reliability of the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network, but NRMA makes no representations or warranties as to the suitability, correctness or reliability of any service supplied by NRMA. NRMA is also not liable for the consequences of your failure to responsibly and diligently check that information including suitability of the NRMA EV Fast Chargers with your vehicle. Fair Use of the NRMA Electric Vehicle Fast Chargers
To help ensure that the NRMA EV Chargers are available for their intended use, the EV Chargers are not to be used to charge a vehicle if your vehicle is being used:  as a taxi;for ridesourcing or ridesharing (through Uber, Taxify or similar services);to commercially deliver or transport goods;for government purposes; orfor any other commercial venture.
You must not:  abuse or misuse the benefit of access to the NRMA EV Chargers;act in any way which is likely to be detrimental to the interests of NRMA, or other users of the NRMA EV Chargers;supply or attempt to supply any false or misleading information, or make any false representation about the NRMA EV Chargers or the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network; oract in any way which, in our reasonable opinion, breaches or is likely to breach these terms or is inconsistent with the intent of these terms.
If you act in such a manner or do not comply with the terms, NRMA may suspend or terminate your right to use or access the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network without notice. Termination
NRMA may terminate these terms and any licence created under it use the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network at any time at its discretion, with immediate effect and without notice. Suspension
NRMA may suspend the use of the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network, or any EV Chargers at any time without notice, including, if:  one or more NRMA EV Charger requires maintenance or upgrading;we have a reasonable belief that the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network is being used unethically, unlawfully or contrary to any law or regulation; orprovision of the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network is disrupted or prevented as a result of an event outside NRMAs reasonable control or for safety reasons.
Subject to applicable laws, we will not be liable to you or any third party for any loss or damage whatsoever suffered by any person as a result of any such suspension, termination or cancellation under the terms. Collection of Data
You acknowledge that the NRMA EV Chargers will collect customer data including but not limited to the details about the vehicle, charging capacity of the Vehicle and the vehicles location. You also acknowledge that use of the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network may generate customer data which is stored by or on behalf of NRMA and accessible by us via the software supporting the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network service.
You acknowledge and agree that all Intellectual Property Rights:  in the customer data; andin connection with the NRMA EV Chargers;
are and remain the sole property of the NRMA. Use of Customer Data
You agree that customer data may be used by us to:  provide you with data via the my nrma app;collect information and aggregate data on NRMA EV Fast Charging Network services;carry out the installation, activation, de-installation, disconnection, servicing, updating or testing of the NRMA EV Chargers and any associated software;provide you with any additional optional services that are or may become available, where you agree to these before or during the period of NRMA EV Fast Charging Network services;carry out research and analysis of the behaviour of our customers;provide you with the products and services you have requested from us; anddevelop processes, products, services and benefits to better meet your needs.
We may provide customer data to our agents, contractors, service providers or related companies for the purposes of, or in connection with, the supply of products and services to you and for the same purposes above.
You agree that NRMA may use and analyse your customer data for the purpose of improving the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network service and including your customer data in aggregated anonymous databases.
You acknowledge that some of our agents, contractors, service providers or related companies may be located in jurisdictions other than Australia, and that in order for the proper supply of the NRMA EV Fast Charging Network service, some or all customer data and vehicle data will be transmitted, stored and processed by our agents, contractors, service providers or related companies located in jurisdictions other than Australia.

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## johnc

Electric vehicles are simply the next step in individual transportation, who knows what will follow it. Those who live in inner city locations will increasingly shun the cost of keeping a vehicle if public transport along with casual hire become much cheaper than owning a vehicle which includes finding a space to park it. The free charging stations will be short lived but groups like the RACV provide stations at their accomodation venues because they can see the future. In the country cost of ownership and convenience will mean it will be a long time before other options will be considered but I would expect in ten years most family cars will be electric. 
Tired old reactionaries like some of those posting here simply can't cope with change, however there is an existing advisory industry that tries to look forward and forcast possible change to assist in government and industry planning for the future to minimise wasting money on unneeded facilities or getting in early on trends. The pace of change is so fast now that those who can't adapt are fast becoming a weight around the neck of free enterprise and a worthless commodity.  
I am interested in what we get from experts, scientists the drivers of technological change because that is what we need. I see little point in engaging with individuals who are still crying about the loss of jobs for the poor poo shovellers who followed horses up the main street of country towns. 
Regardless of climate change, electric vehicles will bring greater efficiencies and better air in our major cities. They are probably also going to be better vehicles, lower maintenance, faster acceleration and sufficient range for most of us.

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## John2b

> Thanks, nice to hear from someone else who has a Leaf. They're in NZ by the way and we're heading over at Christmas time, so I'll be able to experience it first hand as we're going to borrow their Leaf while we're there.

  If the acceleration in her Leaf is lacklustre, I would be checking to see if the mat is bundled up or there is something else stuck under the accelerator stopping it going all the way down! Also check to see if "Eco" mode is switched on. "Eco" mode anaesthetises (remaps) the accelerator and to get full power you need to press it hard all the way to the floor. I once had had a torch jammed under the accelerator in my diesel 4WD after an emergency brake to avoid some wayward kangaroos. It was at night and I was stuffed if I could work out why the car wouldn't 'go' after that, until the next day when I found the torch LOL.

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## METRIX



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## John2b

The inequity of free electric charging stations isn't cut and dried as some want to believe. For a start, the energy in 60 litres of fuel (say $90 worth) will power the average Australian car about 520 kilometres. An electric car (which would drive 3,500 kilometres on the energy in 60 litres of fuel) will typically use 80 kWh of electricity to drive the same distance, say $27 worth at average un-discounted Australian retail electricity prices. However the externalised cost of environmental and health effects of the internal combustion engine is about $45, whilst the externalised cost for an electric car powered by coal fired electricity (the worst case) is about $14. The socialised cost of "free" electricity for an electric car at $41 worst case is still cheaper than the socialised cost of an unsubsidised internal combustion engine car. In other words is cheaper for society to subsidise electric cars with "free" charging than to continue to have ICE cars driving around.

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## John2b

> So how much free power can you get in the time it takes to do the shopping? $1...$2?

  The normal charge rate is 3.3kW, or at worst case domestic retail electricity prices equal to $1.00 per hour. Of course, most large shopping centres would be paying way, way less than half the domestic consumer un-discounted retail price of electricity, perhaps 8 or 10 cents per kWh, a cost of $0.25 to $0.30 per hour for "free" charging.

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## HugeJaXXon

I like the thought of not being bent over at the bowser every Easter, Christmas, long weekend, or for no particular reason. The thought of my hard earned ending up in the middle east so sheiks can drive golden BMWs etc is enough for me to think "bring em on!"
And how much do Dealers want a piece of your hard earned every service, good riddance to those blood suckers.
And as for fuel excise, a per Km, per region, per time of day is pretty simple and fair tech. This would save on road upgrades as peak times would be charged higher and could even subsidise public transport. Hip pocket diplomacy will encourage people to use public transport.

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## johnc

It is a no brainer for the economy, we now import most of our fuel but generate 100% of our electricity locally, the balance of trade would be much better off if we simply banned gas guzzlers and went electric. Not quite that simple as electric has to be affordable, its getting closer on that front but has to be a bit cheaper before people will jump across.

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## doovalacky

> No one can see the inequity of a business owned by shareholders who decides unilaterally to donate to those with electric cars free fuel, paid for the rest of the shareholders? More carbon dioxide induced blindness?

  No different than the fuel discount you get from shopping there.

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## Marc

I wonder whatever happened to the early natural gas cars one could recharge at home slowly overnight with a pump supplied by the gas company. They did go quietly away.

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## HugeJaXXon

Ha, now that you mention it, I'm sure I've seen CNG busses in Brisbane.

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## SilentButDeadly

> I wonder whatever happened to the early natural gas cars one could recharge at home slowly overnight with a pump supplied by the gas company. They did go quietly away.

  Insufficient energy density? Call it an early form of range anxiety!

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## John2b

> Insufficient energy density? Call it an early form of range anxiety!

  Ah, I think you are onto something! Performance anxiety may be the root cause of opposition to electric vehicles from some guys who have never even driven an EV.

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## METRIX

> Ah, I think you are onto something! Performance anxiety may be the root cause of opposition to electric vehicles from some guys who have never even driven an EV.

  Yes, no longer do you need that extra noisy V8 to compensate for other small things  :Biggrin:

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## Whitey66

> It is a no brainer for the economy, we now import most of our fuel but generate 100% of our electricity locally, the balance of trade would be much better off if we simply banned gas guzzlers and went electric. Not quite that simple as electric has to be affordable, its getting closer on that front but has to be a bit cheaper before people will jump across.

   And we struggle now just to supply enough power in the hot summer days when the air conditioners are all running, there is going to have to be a huge increase  in the power station output to keep up with all these chargers.
The whole electrical infrastructure will have to be upgraded to carry the extra load, unless of course people produce their own power to run their cars but most people won't be able to do this. 
Regarding the acceleration performance of electric cars, I don't think it would be a good idea to let some drivers in a car that can go from 0 to 100 in 2 to 3 seconds. There would need to be some type of governing device to keep them safe, which i'm sure will be bypassed by tuner upperers :Biggrin:

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## Marc

What about battery fires in accidents? Is that a real concern or is it made up by the oil industry?   :Smilie:

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## Whitey66

> What about battery fires in accidents? Is that a real concern or is it made up by the oil industry?

  I linked to that in my post #58.
It's a bit scary that the batteries can take 24 hours to extinguish.

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## Marc

> Insufficient energy density? Call it an early form of range anxiety!

  CNG vehicles still exist, and they perform very well. The one I lost track of is the home compressor. Natural compressed gas needs very large compressors to fill the tank in a reasonable time. A home pump needs hours to fill the tank and this devices were available in the eighties. Usually next to the gas meter on the driveway. I never heard of them again.

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## johnc

> And we struggle now just to supply enough power in the hot summer days when the air conditioners are all running, there is going to have to be a huge increase  in the power station output to keep up with all these chargers.
> The whole electrical infrastructure will have to be upgraded to carry the extra load, unless of course people produce their own power to run their cars but most people won't be able to do this. 
> Regarding the acceleration performance of electric cars, I don't think it would be a good idea to let some drivers in a car that can go from 0 to 100 in 2 to 3 seconds. There would need to be some type of governing device to keep them safe, which i'm sure will be bypassed by tuner upperers

  Sadly until the LNP and to a certain extent Labor grow up and start acting like adults in this area we will not get anywhere. Governments are meant to plan, to ensure infrastucture is there, not bitch like children about the past. If we plan we should be able to ensure there is enough power in the grid and meet our Paris obligations at the same time in a cost effective manner.

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## woodbe

Another problem in AU. 
The Holden, the Ford, the Toyota and the Nissan cars are now not made in Australia. 
Everyone who buys a car now, it comes from somewhere else. 
There is someone here in Australia starting to build an electric car in 2020. Up to half of the parts will be made in South Australia, with the rest to be imported mostly from China. It's nothing like a Tesla, mostly a working cargo vehicle, but also starting for a small car.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-...laide/11109132  https://www.ace-ev.com.au/

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## John2b

> And we struggle now just to supply enough power in the hot summer days when the air conditioners are all running, there is going to have to be a huge increase  in the power station output to keep up with all these chargers.

  Ah - but there is no need to charge electric cars on hot summer afternoons! In fact the new generation of electric cars like the Nissan Leaf can export electricity to help peak demand periods and then recharge overnight, when "base load" coal  fired electricity generators are currently boiling water for nothing just so they don't shut down and will be on line in the morning when people want electricity again.

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## John2b

> What about battery fires in accidents? Is that a real concern or is it made up by the oil industry?

  The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration sponsored a study on the questions of electric vehicles and fires in 2017, which concluded that “the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in [lithium-ion] battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation.”  https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...217-v3-tag.pdf

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## Whitey66

> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration sponsored a study on the questions of electric vehicles and fires in 2017, which concluded that “the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in [lithium-ion] battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation.”  https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...217-v3-tag.pdf

  I've never heard anything like this from an ICE car fire -  Chemicals used in conventional fire extinguishers are useless against lithium-ion battery fires, which are susceptible to a chain reaction known as thermal runaway. Indeed, safety experts say the only way to put out this kind of fire is with thousands of gallons of water, well more than what is required to stop a fire in a gasoline combustion engine, or to let it burn itself out.  Firefighters eventually used water to put out the flames, but the Model S re-ignited two more times after being towed away from the crash site, a phenomenon that has happened in previous Tesla crashes. First responders eventually had to call the county hazmat unit for advice.

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## METRIX

Here is another car for Marc

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## METRIX

> Another problem in AU. 
> The Holden, the Ford, the Toyota and the Nissan cars are now not made in Australia. 
> Everyone who buys a car now, it comes from somewhere else. 
> There is someone here in Australia starting to build an electric car in 2020. Up to half of the parts will be made in South Australia, with the rest to be imported mostly from China. It's nothing like a Tesla, mostly a working cargo vehicle, but also starting for a small car.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-...laide/11109132  https://www.ace-ev.com.au/

  I hope this is the start of others to follow, doubt it but it would be good to bring some manufacturing back here and make these types of vehicles cheaper locally.

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## METRIX

This Honda E is much anticipated and will sell like hotcakes going by the public's interest since seeing it as a concept vehicle.

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## METRIX

Worlds first fully electric train

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## METRIX

Electric ferries

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## METRIX

Volkswagen I.D.R Nuremberg

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## METRIX

Future of garbage trucks ?

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## METRIX



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## METRIX

Honda is killing it with design

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## Uncle Bob

> I hope this is the start of others to follow, doubt it but it would be good to bring some manufacturing back here and make these types of vehicles cheaper locally.

  I had hoped that Tesla might buy one of the closed car plants here and started churning out cars for the Asia Pacific area.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Honda is killing it with design

  Neither of those EV Honda's are coming to Australia. Honda Oz has said it just isn't worth their while at this point in time.

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## METRIX

> I had hoped that Tesla might buy one of the closed car plants here and started churning out cars for the Asia Pacific area.

   So did I, they have a plant in China, but it will be predominately to supply the Chinese market, as Tesla is booming over there. 
So there may be hope for one here, we have plenty of room for a Giga factory, we have the worlds largest lithium mine and it's expanding. 
Problem is it's owned by the Chinese and Americans (typical( so most of the profits will go offshore. 
It will be producing around 520,000 tonnes per year, Lithium Carbonate prices are currently around US $17,000 a ton, as usual we sell all our stuff to overseas investors.

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## David.Elliott

FYI... 
https://technode.com/2019/04/28/shenma-ride-hailing-tesla-faulty/

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## DavoSyd

> FYI... 
> https://technode.com/2019/04/28/shenma-ride-hailing-tesla-faulty/

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## autogenous

> CNG vehicles still exist, and they perform very well. The one I lost track of is the home compressor. Natural compressed gas needs very large compressors to fill the tank in a reasonable time. A home pump needs hours to fill the tank and this devices were available in the eighties. Usually next to the gas meter on the driveway. I never heard of them again.

  I contemplated an LNG electric generator of say 1KVA inverter generator to back up solar off-grid on the side of the house near the LNG HWS. If you already have gas, why pay a service fee on electricity and expensive smart meter fees?
This means LNG generator cuts in when renewable cells are not keeping up with demand.  The refrigerator still the largest consumer of electricity running 24 hours. 
No Sound - No Emissions Fuel Cell. 
As for cars, i don't see why no one has fitted a ethanol hydrogen fuel cell in combination with lithium batteries. No emissions but water.  Batteries are topped up on the go until a power supply is available giving far greater extendability and battery reduction in the vehicle.  Ethanol as the fuel is stored in tanks with ease.  These ethanol fuel cell types are very available today as camping generators that make no sound. 
No doubt hydrogen and ethanol by-products of nuclear power are going to be big in China which will leave Australia behind as China hits 30 NPPs by 2030 that burn nuclear fuel waste.  http://www.brenewable.com/news/2018/...-cells-ethanol

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## autogenous

The other emerging technology in cars is the split kinetic turbo which scavenges energy to produce electricity in hybrid engines. Combined with other kinetic scavengers hybrid gives the range without batteries. 
Reducing batteries will be the key IMHO. 
PS. I had a boss who had an ethanol electricity generator for camping. I found out when a bottle of ethanol rocked up via courier. He said no sound, no emissions but water. Ethanol fuel cell electricity generators are about $5000 
Either way, the Australian Federal government will soon have to find a way to replace its 40 cents a litre fuel road tax.  That new road tax model will fall on electric vehicles to build roads and go into general revenue *rolls eyes*

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## Spottiswoode

This has been a fun read! Plenty of propaganda from both sides. :Wink: . Currently I think electric cars are a bit pricey. I’d love to have one as a commuter/round town car. Seats for 5, storage for groceries range of about 100-150km and the ability to charge overnight at home. Ideally it would also be able to power the house with any remaining charge until off peak rates kick in. Would cut fuel costs but heaps and no longer need oil changes. But alas, I cannot purchase one for under $10k - yet. Having a bigger range would hardly be necessary for a second car, it currently hardly ever uses more range and I’ve never driven far enough to warrant a second tank full around town.  
In the mean time I’m hoping the battery prices will fall enough and electric conversions become more common so that I can have a classic car without the fumes and smells that make my wife’s motion sickness worse. 1960s style, modern power train.  
I cant see electric cars replacing our big diesel 4x4 for holiday travels towing a caravan for a few years to come without a hefty price tag, but it’s Going to happen. When a petrol or Diesel engine is less than 30% energy efficient and a comparable electric drive train would be around 90% it makes sense. Sure, for now we get that power largely from coal, but we are headed towards better sources of power that will reduce energy consumption. Then we can turn more fossil fuels into useful plastics and stuff and less into gases that affect our atmosphere.

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## Bros

Electric vehicles look like being a step forward even if it reduces the need for oil from the Middle East despots.  
There are a number of weak links to overcome which mainly is use and charging. The average city commuter drives to work parks the vehicle then drives home at the end of the day. There would have to be a massive upgrade to car parks to be able to charge them during the day otherwise the vehicle is bought home and is recharged using fossil fuel power. 
An upsurge in electric vehicles is wholly dependent on the availability and price of oil

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## METRIX

> Im hoping the battery prices will fall enough and electric conversions become more common so that I can have a classic car without the fumes and smells that make my wifes motion sickness worse. 1960s style, modern power train.  
> .

  Follow these guys, the do some awesome conversions

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## Spottiswoode

I’ve seen some of their work. Great stuff. There are plenty of resources around and it would appear you can build a reasonable range/power on a budget of $15-20k which is still a bit high for me. To get a trim key quality conversion with Tesla range is probably more than $50k. I reckon getting that 400km range and good performance for $10-15k would be a sweet spot for conversions and bring a whole lot more classic cars back to regular use. At the moment electric conversions are for enthusiastic diy car nuts and electrical boffins. 
Still, plenty of people would spend that sort of coin on a petrol powered machine without blinking. In the meantime I’m playing with e-bikes to learn a bit more about the workings of battery powered transport.

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## DavoSyd

> An upsurge in electric vehicles is wholly dependent on the availability and price of oil

  or will it be the other way around?  https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-ev-oil-crisis/

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## Bros

> or will it be the other way around?

   I still believe in my assumption.

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## John2b

We drove the electric car for a quick trip from the Island to Adelaide yesterday, back today. On arrival we recharged on a fast charger at the Electric Vehicle Charging Hub, 109 Franklin St (adjacent the Adelaide Central Bus Station) which cost $3.90 to recharge to 80% and took enough time for a coffee next door. Charged overnight where we stayed from a power point with the EVSE (cable supplied with car), ran all our errands around the 'burbs and arrived home tonight without further ado. That would have been about $70 worth of diesel in the 4WD. And the car is fantastic, smooth and quiet! Electric cars like the Leaf are ultra reliable because they don't have the vibration of an internal combustion engine  shaking them to bits.   

> Why do people buy electric cars?
> "Because they are idiots"

  Idiots, maybe, for not buying electric cars sooner...

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## Marc

Enjoy whilst it lasts for you John. 
It is blatantly obvious that electric cars at this stage in Australia are an expensive hobby. And they are also an expensive hobby in California and associated with soyachinos, yoga, vegetarians and rainbows.
The fact that one can do a grey import cheaper, and that with a large solar system and a lot of patience you may be able to commute not too far and scam a bit of power here and there, is only valid because the electric car is a rare novelty. Not a valid proposition. 
Just like push bike have taken over footpaths in the city and put in danger pedestrian, and just like they had the lobby power to force a change in road rules so that cars are forced to go over double lines to pass them with 1.5 meter "safe" distance and put the motorist in danger. The fact that push bikes are a form of entertainment and cars take people to work is lost in the background nose. 
 Electric cars are non existent here and therefore go under every radar.  
They are not the answer to anything yet, and if they come down in price and the batteries take the car to a reasonable range, and they are taken up by say 20% of the drivers, the rules will change, the fuel will be comparative to petrol and we will need to build 20 or 30 extra coal fired stations to cope with the extra load. 
Meantime good luck, but please do not mention "emissions" because an electric car may not produce CO2 directly but it makes much more pollution of all the other kind that matter. CO2 is not pollution yet is produced at the source anyway, so my 4wd is clean in comparison, will outlast 5 electric cars and counting. 
My prediction is that batteries are not the answer. As much as their technology can improve, they will always need recharging or swapping and both take much longer than acceptable but for the hobbyist, the stoic with an agenda or the idle. 
Storage of electric energy is not the answer, eventually we will invent a device that converts a safe and highly concentrated form of energy into motion. The motor may be electric or steam, that is not the hard part. The energy can come from water or something else, early stages.  
Meantime, enjoy your hobby subsidised by those who pay fuel excise, and the coal generated electricity you get for free. Reminds me of the government campaign to import so that we didn't need to manufacture here. First container was free of tax. That really worked out for us. 
Hopefully we will get a couple of coal fired power stations as a byproduct. 
As for the electric car conversions, those guys are extraordinary in what they do and how they do it, but don't fool yourself. They are but the modern version of the hippies that did the exact same in the seventies. They exist only because electric cars get wrecked and their component recycled into conversions. A very good example of ingenuity and opportunity taking advantage of something that is unregulated. Good for them.

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## Spottiswoode

I think your posts have been the funniest of the thread Marc. You obviously hold some extremist view on the subject of transport. You are right however, batteries and electricity storage are going to have to suffice until we can all strap a Mr Fusion on top of the delorean. But just because we don’t have that technology yet does not mean batteries won’t work. Super capacitors are coming, good solution for bulk storage of electricity with massive charge discharge rates,but only short term. A combination of technologies will help work all this together and the power companies are doing research as to the future of the grid and how usage patterns and generation methods are changing and how best to mange it. Let’s loon forward,  to backward and lament the fossil fuel industry running out and not have alternative solutions running.  
Personally, having seen the smog hanging over Sydney after a few calm days the bulk of city transport should be electric purely for air quality. 
As as for cyclists, get off your high horse. Bicycles are a cheap, extremely efficient transport method and offer virtually no pollution. As a cyclist if I endanger a pedestrian I’m also at risk of harming myself - just as significantly and it’s not something the average cyclist will do. If you crash, it hurts so you avoid it as best possible. More bicycles does not mean more congestion, quite the opposite, less cars - less traffic jams, Simple. 
the 1m rule is there because too many cyclists are hit by cars while minding their own business - more than 80% of all cyclist crashes involving a motor vehicle are caused by the driver, not the rider and many are because cars pass too close. if you do need to pass a bicycle (you probably don’t really need to because of the next traffic lights) you don’t need to cross double lines and have a head on, you need to wait a few seconds and pass when it’s safe. I don’t understand why idiot drivers can’t get this through their skulls. Any delay will be quickly made up by lightly pressing on the right pedal. Check it out next time it happens, you likely catch up to the vehicle in front well before you reach your destination, try to take notice of how much you are actually held up next time. It won’t be long and will likely be less than any other traffic holds you up. 
End if the day though, no one is forcing you to drive and electric car or ride a bicycle. It’s your choice, just like everyone else.

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## Bros

> the 1m rule is there because too many cyclists are hit by cars while minding their own business - more than 80% of all cyclist crashes involving a motor vehicle are caused by the driver, not the rider and many are because cars pass too close. if you do need to pass a bicycle (you probably don’t really need to because of the next traffic lights)

   Do cyclists take notice of traffic lights? I’ve seen plenty who don’t.

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## Marc

https://youtu.be/og1dEaDXbwg

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## Marc

Spotties, try driving on a long winding mountain road that has no shoulder and double lines and you are behind a pack of morons on their stupid bikes obviously not going to work but having fun at your expense and you have to be in time at work. Try Wisemans ferry road or Old Northern road. It is a delight. 
And it is 1.5 meters not 1 ... :Thumbdown:  
i say no shoulder, no bikes. 
What about the M7 that has a multi million dollar bike line off the highway all along it, yet the morons drive on the highway?

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## Spottiswoode

> https://youtu.be/og1dEaDXbwg

   Thanks. Keep searching the internet, you’ll find someone to support your argument, doesn’t mean they aren’t biased and sometimes they aren’t right either.

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## Spottiswoode

> Spotties, try driving on a long winding mountain road that has no shoulder and double lines and you are behind a pack of morons on their stupid bikes obviously not going to work but having fun at your expense and you have to be in time at work. Try Wisemans ferry road or Old Northern road. It is a delight.

  Hardly the normal. Might be for you, but the vast majority are dealing with straight, urban roads where most incidents occur. 
If this happens 'all the time' try leaving an extra minute or two earlier then you wont be so stressed about being late when you are 'held up' behind them.  

> And it is 1.5 meters not 1 ...

  It is actually a 1m rule, with an exception for greater than 60km/h. Either way, it shouldn't make any difference to passing a cyclist just leave a reasonable space. The more the better. Ideally change lanes completely.   

> yet the morons drive on the highway?

   Think you've got it right. I'd much rather be riding. :Cry: . But just because there is a cycleway doesn't mean it actually goes where you want it to, or is efficient for a cyclist. Many of them are disjointed and take you on a detour - I'm sure you wouldn't like that in your precious car. Many cycleways have been inundated with recreational walker and runners that mean progress is impeded. You wouldn't choose a suburban street, choked with parked cars when you have a multilane highway option either would you?

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## METRIX

> I’ve seen some of their work. Great stuff. There are plenty of resources around and it would appear you can build a reasonable range/power on a budget of $15-20k which is still a bit high for me. To get a trim key quality conversion with Tesla range is probably more than $50k. I reckon getting that 400km range and good performance for $10-15k would be a sweet spot for conversions and bring a whole lot more classic cars back to regular use. At the moment electric conversions are for enthusiastic diy car nuts and electrical boffins. 
> Still, plenty of people would spend that sort of coin on a petrol powered machine without blinking. In the meantime I’m playing with e-bikes to learn a bit more about the workings of battery powered transport.

  Yep. if you stick to older classic "basic" cars would be the best, because they had old under powered inefficient engines, and have no electronic gadgetry like on the more modern vehicles.
Just like the old days of swapping engines it wasn't too hard as there isn't a lot of electronics to throw spanners in the works and have stuff not work. 
Problems would be anything that runs on belts, such as aircon, hydraulic power steering etc as these present problems converting.

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## Spottiswoode

> Problems would be anything that runs on belts, such as aircon, hydraulic power steering etc as these present problems converting.

   That’s getting easier too. There are quite a few current model ICE cars that have 12v electric power steering and water pumps (water cooling batteries is a thing too). Air cond is becoming more accessible with electric cars on the market that run an electric compressor. Others have adapted traditional belt driven AC pumps to run off the drive shaft/gearbox or the back of the electric traction motor, but of course this only works when the car is in motion - not ideal for heavy traffic. I also wondered wether you could butcher a 12v car fridge to cool your air.

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## Marc

I see more purpose for converting boats with inboards than cars. 
Idle time is way longer than driving time, so plenty of time to charge. 
Much more space and weight capacity to carry large battery packs. Usually no aircon nor power assisted anything.  
Can carry an auxiliary outboard and generator, just to keep up with CO2 production for the benefit of green earth.
Must figure out reverse without a gearbox, but can be bolted to the marine gearabox anyway. 
That would be a fun project.
A hobby. Not to pretend that electric boats should be mandatory and if you do not comply the CO2 inquisition will confiscate your boat.
Or that you are morally superior for driving an EB  :Smilie:

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## Uncle Bob

There's plenty of electric catamarans already. Here's one I was just watching the other day https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAgmFoivgr0
 href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAgmFoivgr0" target="_blank">

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## Marc

Yes, those are factory solar one million dollar boats. You pay triple what you would a diesel or outboard powered one. 4 times if it is painted red.  
 I was thinking in the ordinary cruiser or ski boat with a shaft driven inboard. That would be an easy, and relatively cheaper conversion. 
THe weight of a 100 hp diesel engine and gearbox, about 200 to 250 kg replaced by a 70 kg 130HP electric motor leaves about 150 kg of batteries free space, plus whater else you want to add for longer range. 
Not a proposition for a water taxi but very nice for a weekender that has all week to charge on a few solar panels.

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## Spottiswoode

So you do get it. Electric stuff has good performance, unfortunately range is not so good with current tech.  
Not sure a ski boat would work. You wouldn’t get a lot of time at speed with 150kg of batteries, a wake boat might work, they often have ballast tanks to make the wake bigger. Be good for a fishing boat though, nice a quiet too.. Shaft drive bit would be easy, reverse means switching the contractors to run the motor backwards. Probably no need for any form of gearbox.

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## Bros



----------


## Marc

There is a canadian company building electric boats, but don't think they sell kits. They don't answer emails anyway.
There are some suppliers of electric motors and kits in Australia but they seem to be all for low revs high torque displacement boats.  
A boat conversion has a few challenges, but easily overcome if you know what you are doing. And most likely way easier than a car.
A displacement hull that requires less power and has way more cargo capacity is the likely candidate, however the biggest attraction is for a planing hull.
No gearbox would be very nice but with the need of thrust bearing and reducing rpm, i think that a reduction gear is a must. 
All very simple stuff, but not cheap and ... remind me what for?  
There is a case to be made for a Chris Craft powered by a flat head Oldsmobile dual spark plug ready for the scrap heap. 
Hardly a high tech proposition. More like a parachute powered with a converted blender. 
But who can say no to this? https://youtu.be/qKCMRzfUFDs

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## METRIX

> I see more purpose for converting boats with inboards than cars. 
> Idle time is way longer than driving time, so plenty of time to charge. 
> Much more space and weight capacity to carry large battery packs. Usually no aircon nor power assisted anything.  
> Can carry an auxiliary outboard and generator, just to keep up with CO2 production for the benefit of green earth.
> Must figure out reverse without a gearbox, but can be bolted to the marine gearabox anyway. 
> That would be a fun project.
> A hobby. Not to pretend that electric boats should be mandatory and if you do not comply the CO2 inquisition will confiscate your boat.
> Or that you are morally superior for driving an EB

   https://ecoboats.com.au/products/ele...nboard-motors/

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## Marc

Yes, good stuff but only for displacement speeds.
For planing think 100-120 kw. 
There is a video of a converted bayliner 17.5' 
very little range though https://youtu.be/my0TX3INjSk

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## METRIX

> Yes, good stuff but only for displacement speeds.
> For planing think 100-120 kw. 
> There is a video of a converted bayliner 17.5' 
> very little range though https://youtu.be/my0TX3INjSk

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## METRIX



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## METRIX



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## METRIX

The boat in this one is beautiful

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## Bedford

Maybe one day they'll even have wind powered boats.............

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## Marc

Ha ha, reminds me when we were kids and tired of rowing, we fitted a few bamboo as mast and a bed sheet. We did sail, but with no keel we ended up on the river bank. 
I get asked regularly why don't I switch to sailing ... "No need for diesel fuel" ... "Wind is free" 
Piti that sails and assorted parafernalia costs more than fuel. Yep sailing is an expensive hobby, just like electric power. 
Still ... a nice wooden Riva boat with an electric motor would be a thing of beauty     https://youtu.be/Cu1YGCL0DP8

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## Bigboboz

> some decent numbers there...

  Which ones?  The fall in coal is mostly offset by the increase in gas and the fall nuclear has been mostly offset by green sources.  Plus this chart is only for OECD which the first chart showed OECD usage to be flat for the last 10 years with non-OECD increasing beyond OECD.  What does production look like for non-OECD?

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## Bigboboz

> This has been a fun read! Plenty of propaganda from both sides..

  Completely agree   

> Currently I think electric cars are a bit pricey. Id love to have one as a commuter/round town car. Seats for 5, storage for groceries range of about 100-150km and the ability to charge overnight at home. Ideally it would also be able to power the house with any remaining charge until off peak rates kick in. Would cut fuel costs but heaps and no longer need oil changes. But alas, I cannot purchase one for under $10k - yet. Having a bigger range would hardly be necessary for a second car, it currently hardly ever uses more range and Ive never driven far enough to warrant a second tank full around town.

  Yeah I'm keen for a decent electric car that doesn't weigh a tonne from large batteries that won't even be required 95% of the time.  Charge at home every night (provided you have off street parking) and 100km range is plenty. Cheap city car that doesn't suck would be perfect as a second car.  I'd be happy to pay more than $10k for decent performance and finish but at the moment the higher outputs require the larger banks of batteries which comes with weight and cost.

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## Marc

Wooden Riva Aquarama converted to electric? 
I don't think so  :Smilie: 
I love all 24 cylinders  https://youtu.be/FwHB7BXOLMk?t=9

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## Bedford

While it's ok to hear and see the performance of electric cars on the drag strip etc, I think if they want to convert people away from ICE engines they are going the wrong way about it. 
They need to think more about what the consumer really needs/wants in a vehicle, not what the system thinks is best for you. 
They need to think like Henry Ford and probably the original Volkswagen people in that they produced cars that were as affordable as possible to most of the buyers. 
Nowhere in this thread have I seen the equivalent Electric powered version of a Ford or Holden type conventional station wagon type car that is suited to not only families with three kids and a dog , but also a lot of trades and sales type people. 
Build a vehicle without all the unnecessary BS, like a 40 year old Ford or Holden but with the benefits of the improved safety systems that have developed over the years, price it accordingly and I think people will  gradually convert to them.

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## Spottiswoode

The new Hyundai Kona electric would seem to fit ‘what consumers want’ quite well. Compact but family oriented SUV, perfect for city usage. I’m guessing they haven’t had a crack at the typical Aussie family car of yesteryear because those that buy those ‘family, toys and a dog’ car ie the dual cab Ute or Prado either have the dream of or do travel the outback a lot (with caravans etc) and for now at least the range and recharging isn’t suited to long Aussie driving holidays.

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## Uncle Bob

> They need to think like Henry Ford and probably the original Volkswagen people in that they produced cars that were as affordable as possible to most of the buyers.

  I believe that's Elon Musk's vison also (I sure I read/saw this somewhere). 
It's the cashed up early adopters that are meant to be paving the way towards this. I hope that's true and they don't just become another greedy car company.

----------


## Marc

> While it's ok to hear and see the performance of electric cars on the drag strip etc, I think if they want to convert people away from ICE engines they are going the wrong way about it. 
> They need to think more about what the consumer really needs/wants in a vehicle, not what the system thinks is best for you. 
> They need to think like Henry Ford and probably the original Volkswagen people in that they produced cars that were as affordable as possible to most of the buyers. 
> Nowhere in this thread have I seen the equivalent Electric powered version of a Ford or Holden type conventional station wagon type car that is suited to not only families with three kids and a dog , but also a lot of trades and sales type people. 
> Build a vehicle without all the unnecessary BS, like a 40 year old Ford or Holden but with the benefits of the improved safety systems that have developed over the years, price it accordingly and I think people will  gradually convert to them.

  
That's exactly it, you have a bunch of idealist telling you that this is the future. I am sorry but if you want' me to pay 100k for a car that does 100 km and needs 4 hours to recharge, i stick to the past until you come up with something else. And let's be clear, that something else is not my responsibility, not my duty, not interested until it is presented to me as a product i want, not as a moral obligation I have to take.
Environment my foot. Find a better way to sell me something that does not involve moralistic blackmail. 
This way stinks. Go bak to your "get up" meetings you wankers.

----------


## Bros

> Maybe one day they'll even have wind powered boats.............

  Fart boats?

----------


## METRIX

> While it's ok to hear and see the performance of electric cars on the drag strip etc, I think if they want to convert people away from ICE engines they are going the wrong way about it. 
> They need to think more about what the consumer really needs/wants in a vehicle, not what the system thinks is best for you. 
> They need to think like Henry Ford and probably the original Volkswagen people in that they produced cars that were as affordable as possible to most of the buyers. 
> Nowhere in this thread have I seen the equivalent Electric powered version of a Ford or Holden type conventional station wagon type car that is suited to not only families with three kids and a dog , but also a lot of trades and sales type people. 
> Build a vehicle without all the unnecessary BS, like a 40 year old Ford or Holden but with the benefits of the improved safety systems that have developed over the years, price it accordingly and I think people will  gradually convert to them.

  The main reason why there is so much about electric vehicles 0-100 times / range etc, is this is how Tesla showed the world that an electric car does not have to be boring and slow.
If they had released a bog stock vehicle that did 0-100 in 13 seconds, and looked like a boring cardigan car then nobody would have stood up and listened. 
Tesla deliberately did this to stick it up the ICE industry, and they succeeded, they now have the entire ICE industry trying to get their act together to manufacture these types of vehicles. 
Now you will start to see cheaper vehicles coming from all manufacturers in all sorts of shapes and sizes, If Tesla has not kick started the industry no other manufacturer would have bothered to do anything. 
All that would have happened (and it is happening) is that EURO emissions would have become so difficult to meet that diesels would simply die off, petrol engines would just get smaller and smaller and the consumer would have to pay more for all the investment the manufacturers have to do to meet the emissions standards.   
Like anything the more manufacturers making these vehicles the cheaper the production costs will be, and because the vehicle does not have to meet any emission standards this is a huge R&D cost to the manufacturers they don't have to deal with anymore. 
I remember seeing a documentary and to develop a new engine was in the hundreds of millions of dollars (not sure why it should be so high there has been over 100 years of gradual development) as electric engines don't produce emissions they should be able to swap and specify any motor they want at any time without massive R&D costs, it will simply be rudimentary engineering changes. 
ICE development is getting to some serious numbers now, Mercedes has just released the AMG-M139 2.0l 4 Cylinder that produces 310Kw and 500Nm, that will put a lot of V8'S to shame.

----------


## METRIX

> That's exactly it, you have a bunch of idealist telling you that this is the future. I am sorry but if you want' me to pay 100k for a car that does 100 km and needs 4 hours to recharge, i stick to the past until you come up with something else. And let's be clear, that something else is not my responsibility, not my duty, not interested until it is presented to me as a product i want, not as a moral obligation I have to take.
> Environment my foot. Find a better way to sell me something that does not involve moralistic blackmail. 
> This way stinks. Go bak to your "get up" meetings you wankers.

  Marc your silly comments are getting old very quickly, you don't have to pay 100K, and you don't get 100km from a charge, are you actually reading any of the information being posted here or did you simply start this thread because you had a bad hair day. 
As has been said here, nobody is forcing you to do anything, nobody is going to confiscate your ICE car, nobody is going to take money from your bank account and say you have to drive this now.
You have made it quite obvious you are not interested in electric vehicles or discussing the change the industry is going through at the moment. 
I personally think it's great to see such a huge shakeup of such an old industry.

----------


## Uncle Bob

> Fart boats?

  My old step dad used to have a bumper sticker on the back of his Wolseley (Man he loved that old land crab) 
"Save Gas, Fart in a jar"   :Smilie:

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## Marc

Metrix, my comments are not silly and we are all getting old at the same pace.
You seem to have forgotten Labor's plan to have half the cars electric by the year ... what was it? 
The left does not play the market, they indoctrinate and enforce in any way shape and form they possibly can. 
If you think that electric cars are a cute technological advance you are rather naive.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Metrix, my comments are not silly and we are all getting old at the same pace.
> You seem to have forgotten Labor's plan to have half the cars electric by the year ... what was it? 
> The left does not play the market, they indoctrinate and enforce in any way shape and form they possibly can. 
> If you think that electric cars are a cute technological advance you are rather naive.

  Not everything is a left wing conspiracy...

----------


## METRIX

> Metrix, my comments are not silly and we are all getting old at the same pace.
> You seem to have forgotten Labor's plan to have half the cars electric by the year ... what was it? 
> The left does not play the market, they indoctrinate and enforce in any way shape and form they possibly can. 
> If you think that electric cars are a cute technological advance you are rather naive.

  Labour's policy's have nothing to do with the current state of affairs. 
PSSSST I have some secret information for you, Labour did not get elected and unless Liberal are going to give everyone a FREE electric vehicle then you can't force people to buy one.
The Gov't aint giving away cars so your ICE vehicles are safe. 
I don't think electric cars are cute, I understand the technology and appreciate how far these have come in such a short time, and how much money and technological advanced have had to happen to get them where they are today. 
Yes they have some way to go until the masses may be driving them, and I am happy to wait until that time, unlike some I am not closing my eyes to what's happening hoping it will all just go away, because it won't. 
Like it or not, electric vehicles are here to stay for either short or long term, there has been too much money invested in development and infrastructure to simply say oh well we gave it a try, but lets go back to ICE technology.
They are just then next step in vehicle propulsion, who knows what will come after that and when. 
In 2003 GM recalled all EV1 electric vehicles produced and destroyed them (this shows you the stupid mentality of big car manufacturers), the current CEO at that time, Rick Wagoner. later admitted this was the worst decision GM had made during his time as CEO.
The destruction of the EV1 was why Tesla was formed in 2003, anyway there is plenty of information out there for those who are interested. 
For those who are not interested they can go back inside and put their tin hat back on.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Metrix, my comments are not silly and we are all getting old at the same pace.
> You seem to have forgotten Labor's plan to have half the cars electric by the year ... what was it? 
> The left does not play the market, they indoctrinate and enforce in any way shape and form they possibly can. 
> If you think that electric cars are a cute technological advance you are rather naive.

  Without government intervention I would guess half all new cars will be electric by whatever year they proposed. It’s a no brainer for city cars to be electric and that is most likely half the market. There is also the family with two cars. It is hardly likely that both willl need massive range and be used outside ‘commuting’. that leaves the other half to be used in the country where there is much longer range required or towing is needed to still be IcE cars for a while to come.  
As as others have mentioned many times, no one is going to take away your ICE car. Just because they stop making so many ice cars won’t mean they are all crushed. The average age of car in Australia is over 10 years too. ICE cars are not going to disappear overnight.

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## DavoSyd

> Which ones?

  "oil" is one.  
"solar, wind, geothermal etc" is another one.   

> What does production look like for non-OECD?

  great question!

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## UseByDate

But, but what about the war on the weekend?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMLocb-pE8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPVUoBfHPGg

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## Marc

Yes, in hindsight it sound comical because it is. Both sides are commediant because each states a different doctrine each with their own hidden agenda. 
But that is the nature of politicians, like actors in a movie script they parrot their line for a purpose and a price.  
It is up to us to read between the lines and to see past the smoke screen using common sense. Some are able to do this, others run with the line they like the best. 
Who writes the movie lines for one side or the other? 
Follow the money and you will know.

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## DavoSyd

> But, but what about the war on the weekend?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWMLocb-pE8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPVUoBfHPGg

  isn't that what started this recent crusade by his believers?

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## UseByDate

> isn't that what started this recent crusade by his believers?

  Anyone who believes a politician is a fool. I can remember watching Malcolm Turnbull/ Barnaby Joyce on a TV that was *powered from the grid*, informing me that SA was experiencing a state wide power failure. They both started criticising their perceived weaknesses  of the SA power generation system. I, on the other hand, was very impressed by the professionalism demonstrate by the engineers and technicians and how quickly the they managed to sequence up the power system from a statewide failure whilst a one in fifty year storm was in progress. High winds that destroyed power pylons and made navigation difficult due to many fallen trees blocking roads. No praise from the politicians.

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## Uncle Bob

> No praise from the politicians.

  I bet coal/big oil thought they had hit the jackpot when that happened. Then Elon Musk struck  :Smilie: 
Unfortunately coal/big oil still mostly came out on top due to the FUD being pedalled out.

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## METRIX

> Anyone who believes a politician is a fool. .

   :2thumbsup:

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## PhilT2

> Anyone who believes a politician is a fool.

  But every word you read on the internet is pure gospel, right? 
Next time you flick on a switch, spare a thought for the family of the coal miner who died today.

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## johnc

> Metrix, my comments are not silly and we are all getting old at the same pace.
> You seem to have forgotten Labor's plan to have half the cars electric by the year ... what was it? 
> The left does not play the market, they indoctrinate and enforce in any way shape and form they possibly can. 
> If you think that electric cars are a cute technological advance you are rather naive.

   You would have more credibility if you stopped inventing political connotations that do not exist or justifying what is often a bias that has no factual basis whatsoever.  
Its fine to to be a dinosaur with an inability to accept change, just don't expect others to join you in the fantasy world that supports that view

----------


## METRIX

> Next time you flick on a switch, spare a thought for the family of the coal miner who died today.

  Agree, 
Stats show though that Mining is not the highest for fatalities jobs in Australia, it's ranked as 8th.  *1. Agriculture, forestry and fishing* _Last year's ranking: 1_ The agriculture, forestry and fishing industry has routinely been at the top of the most dangerous jobs list, with 470 workplace fatalities being recorded between 2007-2017. The industry also had an abundance of workers' compensation claims lodged from 2016-17, with over 3,620 in total. *
2. Transport, postal and warehousing* _Last year's ranking: 2_ The transport, postal and warehousing industry accounted for 54 fatalities (8.6 per 100,000 employees) and 8,330 serious injury claims (18.7 per 1,000 employees) in 2017.  *3. Construction* _Last year's ranking: 3_ Construction accounted for 12.5% of all workplace compensation claims in 2017 with 13,280 claims made. 'Constructions services' were responsible for 30 total deaths in 2017. This includes jobs such as earthmoving, plumbing, carpentry, bricklaying and concreting.  *4. Manufacturing* _Last year's ranking : 4_ In 2017, 6 people lost their lives while working in the manufacturing industry. Manufacturing was also the second most common industry for workers' compensation claims, with 12,860 claims lodged in 2017.  *5. Wholesale trade* _Last year's ranking: 6_ In 2017, the wholesale trade industry saw increase in the total number of fatalities from 0 (2016) to 6. The total number of serious injuries also increased from 4,415 to 4,500  *6. Arts and recreation services* _Last year's ranking: 8_ In 2017, the arts and recreation sector had 2,190 workers compensation claims and 8 deaths.  *7. Health and community services* _Last year's ranking: 9_ The health and community services sector once again had the highest number of worker compensation claims in 2016-2017, with 17,190 claims being lodged. The reason this industry doesn't rank higher is because of the serious claims per 1,000 employees being way less than the above industries (11.1) *
8. Mining* Whole sale trading _Last year's ranking: 7_ The mining industry experienced 3 deaths in Australia in 2017 (down from 6 in 2016). The industry also had 2,030 workers compensation claims in 2017 (down from 2,060 in the previous year).  *9. Electricity, gas, water and waste services* _Last year's ranking: 5_ The electricity, gas, water and waste sector saw a decrease in deaths in 2017 with from 8 (the previous year) to 2.  *10. Administrative and support services* _Last year's ranking: 10_ The administrative and support services industry remained in 10th place in 2017. There were 2 fatalities, down from 8 the previous year.

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## johnc

Of course it isn't just workers, a large number of people die prematurely each year from the effects of coal emmissions.

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## Spottiswoode

> Of course it isn't just workers, a large number of people die prematurely each year from the effects of coal emmissions.

  ** pro coal hat on** but the electricity generate powers hospitals which save so many more lives than we lose.  
And if if we didn’t have coal emissions there are a fair few people who would t need to go to hospital.  
and so the argument goes round in circles and the human race just ends up dumber. We spend too much time arguing extremes of the debate and forget about just getting on with reducing our impact on the planet - by what ever means possible.

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## UseByDate

> ** pro coal hat on** but the electricity generate powers hospitals which save so many more lives than we lose.  
> And if if we didn’t have coal emissions there are a fair few people who would t need to go to hospital. 
>  .

   Almost everyone is hospitalised at some time in their life, with or without “coal emissions”.

----------


## UseByDate

> But every word you read on the internet is pure gospel, right? 
> Next time you flick on a switch, spare a thought for the family of the coal miner who died today.

  I will assume irony on your part. I also assume you are using the word gospel to mean the truth and not the religious meaning.
 Anyone who believes everything they hear, read or see on the internet is a fool, but that is true of all sources of information. All information should be critically evaluated. Postmodernism is also for fools in my opinion. Ie everybody is entitled to their own truth. Apparently it is now offensive, to some people, to claim that humans came to Australia approximately 60,000 years ago because their science says that humans have always been here.    
 One of my grandfathers was a coal miner and I did think of our family when he died.

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## DavoSyd

> I will assume irony on your part.

  it seemed quite sarcastic... 
on many other forums the author denotes sarcastic comments by either using _italics_ or ending the sarcasm with /s (meaning 'end sarcasm')

----------


## UseByDate

> it seemed quite sarcastic... 
> on many other forums the author denotes sarcastic comments by either using _italics_ or ending the sarcasm with /s (meaning 'end sarcasm')

  No sarcasm intended. Merely qualifying my interpretation of the post.

----------


## DavoSyd

> No sarcasm intended. Merely qualifying my interpretation of the post.

  yes, the second part of my post was directed at PhilT2 and others general, not yourself - sorry for any confusion.

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## UseByDate

> yes, the second part of my post was directed at PhilT2 and others general, not yourself - sorry for any confusion.

    :2thumbsup:

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## Marc

> Of course it isn't just workers, a large number of people die prematurely each year from the effects of coal emmissions.

  "Coal Emissions" (one m in english ... two m, two s and two o in french)
What on earth is that? 
And how does it kill "a large number of people prematurely" and how do you know they died "prematurely" from this phantom emissions?
Rather spooky. Is it some tropical disease? invisible fumes? 
Will people stop dying if I buy an electric car? Please say the word, I am all for stopping all this millions of premature dead. 
This is just another example of emotional blackmail in order to make a (cheap) political point.

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## cyclic

VW battery car record at goodwood  https://www.goodwood.com/grr/event-c...t-winning-run/

----------


## John2b

> And how does it kill "a large number of people prematurely" and how do you know they died "prematurely" from this phantom emissions?
> Rather spooky. Is it some tropical disease? invisible fumes? 
> Will people stop dying if I buy an electric car? Please say the word, I am all for stopping all this millions of premature dead.
> This is just another example of emotional blackmail in order to make a (cheap) political point.

  How is it known that vaccines save lives? A vaccinated person can still be hit by an electric car, so must it be voodoo to say stopping pollution from internal combustion engines (i.e. volatile organic compounds and particulates) can prevent premature deaths? Statistically three times as many Australians are killed by respiratory and other diseases attributed to pollution from internal combustion engines than are killed in car accidents. Only someone who doesn't 'agree' that smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer would bother to argue otherwise.

----------


## DavoSyd

> Statistically three times as many Australians are killed by respiratory and other diseases attributed to pollution from internal combustion engines than are killed in car accidents.

  pffft, you must be indoctrinated! sounds just like left wing socialist soyachino propaganda!  
look at this GARBAGE obviously written by a commie trying to take my hard earned capitalist profits (because i am smarter than you)! /s   

> The *environmental impact of the coal industry includes issues such as land use, waste management, waterand air pollution, caused by the coal mining, processing and the use of its products. In addition to atmospheric pollution, coal burning produces hundreds of millions of tons of solid waste products annually, including fly ash,[1]bottom ash, and flue-gas desulfurization sludge, that contain mercury, uranium, thorium, arsenic, and other heavy metals. Coal is the largest contributor to the human-made increase of CO2 in the atmosphere.*

  it's a confected greenspiracy I tells ya!

----------


## Marc

Aaaaaaaah ... now I get it, your comrades explained it all to me. By "coal emmmissions' You mean to say car exhaust fumes/pollution.
Now I understand the runabout hint. It is always good to sneak the magic words "coal" and "emissions". Repeat it long enough and people will start to believe you.
Known fact. Even if you are talking about banana shakes. 
Or electric cars that shift pollution to another country and to the powerplant. 
I bet you guys all have 2 or 3 electric cars stashed in your garage? 
Just to clarify, my car does not run on coal.
I run a forge on coal though ... sorry.

----------


## John2b

> Only someone who doesn't 'agree' that smoking cigarettes causes lung cancer would bother to argue otherwise.

  Cue Marc  :2thumbsup:  LOL

----------


## DavoSyd

> it's a confected greenspiracy I tells ya!

  whoah, i kept reading! 
this level of fraud is unbelievable?!??!   

> There are severe health effects caused by burning coal.[2][3] According to a report by the World Health Organization in 2008, coal particulates pollution are estimated to shorten approximately 1,000,000 lives annually worldwide.[4]

  one million lives are shortened every year due to coal particulates?  
isn't shorten that greenie that hates coal and CO2?!? 
/end sarcasm

----------


## METRIX



----------


## Marc

So ... is there any doubt left that electric cars and the doctrine of CO2 go hand in hand? 
I wonder if Egon Muffit will get a "peace" nobel prize?

----------


## craka

> So ... is there any doubt left that electric cars and the doctrine of CO2 go hand in hand? 
> I wonder if Egon Muffit will get a "peace" nobel prize?

  Whether you agree with CO2 emission or not, you surely have to admit that cars attribute to general pollution by exhaust emissions?     
Would you prefer to be living in the era of coal and steam or to have gone through the era with the internal combustion engine?

----------


## Marc

What is your point again?

----------


## craka

My point was asking you a question but you chose not to answer.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Whether you agree with CO2 emission or not, you surely have to admit that cars attribute to general pollution by exhaust emissions?     
> Would you prefer to be living in the era of coal and steam or to have gone through the era with the internal combustion engine?

  Yup.  ICE cars put out a lot more thanCO2 and generate pollution which is harmful to health. Motor vehicles are responsible for a large percentage of the smog that fills the Sydney basin, that you can visibly see on a bad day,  now that most homes don’t have combustion heaters (fires).  
think id prefer to live in the age of electric transport and renewable power sources than either of those two you mentioned, but I guess I’m going to have to live for a fair while yet to see it.

----------


## John2b

> think id prefer to live in the age of electric transport and renewable power sources than either of those two you mentioned, but I guess I’m going to have to live for a fair while yet to see it.

  Maybe not. In the 1970s a trip into the city centre meant a face covered with grime and sticky hair by the time you went home. All of the buildings were darkened with grime. That was before emission controls were introduce on petrol engine cars. By the late 1980s city buildings had mostly been pressure cleaned and they are still clean 30 years later. There were a lot of 'experts' in the 1960-70s pooh-poohing the cause of smog and they succeeding in delaying the introduction of pollution control on cars by 10 or 20 years. The same vociferous mob delayed the introduction of seat belts and other safety measures now taken for granted. They were just as wrong back then as today.

----------


## Marc

> My point was asking you a question but you chose not to answer.

  Ok Craka, you are a nice guy so I'll expand.
Someone introduced a new concept ... "Coal emissions", to what I asked for a clarification since it is nonsense. Coal is a fuel, very cheap, used in furnaces all around the world in metallurgy. Certainly not in cars ... well with the exception of during the 2WW when lack of petrol made some ingenious folks run cars and even trucks on H2 plus CO from coal and even charcoal and wood fires. Very clever. 
If we unleash a frenzy of electric cars however, then yes, the coal used in power stations will produce more CO2 and so there is a relation, but an inverse relation to what the electric cars supporters want I must imagine. So ... more electric cars, more CO2 from coal. 
Surely each petrol or diesel car produces CO2 in the combustion of petrol or diesel. And also produces pollutants, real ones not imaginary like CO2 that is a beneficial gas.  
So to your confusing question of the era of coal and steam vs the internal combustion engine ... which era is that? We are still using coal and steam to produce electricity, in fact 95 % of it, unless it is 96 or 94, someone will correct me. Hardly anyone produces electricity using diesel. Little towns in India perhaps. Actually in Moreton Island there is a diesel generator ... and I run a petrol generator when the electricity fails (sorry) , mostly because of the obsession with so called renewables ... so there you go.  
But to conclude this thread that was lots of fun, let me say the following. With the honorable exception of John, to be or not to be but he is the only one here who put his money where his mouth is. He went to the _extreme_ of doing a grey import and buying a second hand electric car from Japan, build a large enough solar powered generator and run his electric toy ... sorry car, for free, and good for him, hat off. 
The rest of the good people here, are debating *doctrine or* *dogma* since no one else has an electric car. They *like* electric cars because it fits the concept of CO2 being evil and menacing (pure nonsense again) so that is why such aggressive defense of a nice looking but distant reality.
So why people here don't all have electric cars and only John2b has one? 
Why? because it is a pie in the sky, just like talking about luxury Catamarans or nice Bentleys or buying your own island.  
We will *all* buy an electric car that can be plugged in a solar generator and be run for cheap when the price is competitive and comparable to equivalent petrol car, when it has an acceptable range and if it can do the job we require. The industry will determine that time. 
Meantime whoever spends the asking price for a new electric car as the market stands now in Australia is a fool and is throwing his money away for an ideal that merits a better cause. If you have that much money to spend on an electric car to show your groomed poodle in it parked in front of a trendy cafe in Newtown or Glebe, be my guest.  
 I need a car to pull large loads along km of mud roads and through streams so electric for me is a bit further away. And so it is for 99 % of the rest of the stuff that gets moved around in australia on the back of DIESEL engines, yes, trucks and locomotives will stay diesel for some time to come. 
Waiting with baited breath

----------


## craka

> Maybe not. In the 1970s a trip into the city centre meant a face covered with grime and sticky hair by the time you went home. All of the buildings were darkened with grime. That was before emission controls were introduce on petrol engine cars. By the late 1980s city buildings had mostly been pressure cleaned and they are still clean 30 years later. There were a lot of 'experts' in the 1960-70s pooh-poohing the cause of smog and they succeeding in delaying the introduction of pollution control on cars by 10 or 20 years. The same vociferous mob delayed the introduction of seat belts and other safety measures now taken for granted. They were just as wrong back then as today.

  
This is where I was leading with my questions. For those that don't believe in CO2 emissions to be an issue, surely they can still see that emissions from combustion vehicles still attribute to general pollution which is not at all healthy to breathe.   Just in previous generations there were advances in technology, generally driven by a need or want for better efficiency and also as time went on a desire to reduce the pollution emitted.   The phasing in of electric vehicles is a progression of technology in time, just as been happening since the industrial revolution. They have better efficiency and have virtually no emissions.

----------


## Marc

If you want to make a point that coal is bad and solar is good (false premise) I will give you a hint or two.
Electric cars will not solve the above. That is purely a generation issue. Adding a large extra load to the existing generators will only produce a crisis not solve how the electricity is generated. At the moment there is no substitute for coal, unless we go nuclear of hydro. 
And if anyone believes the fairytales that the tree huggers for hire like to tell that coal is oh so bad and mines must shut down, I tell you another secret. No coal no steel. And no more many more other things. Furthermore, those beloved electric cars, are they made with steel or composite? If they are steel they need coal, if they are plastic they need oil. 
Different types of coal have different uses.      • Steam coal - also known as thermal coal - is mainly used in power generation.      • Coking coal - also known as metallurgical coal - is mainly used in steel production.  Other important users of coal include alumina refineries, paper manufacturers, and the chemical and pharmaceutical industries. Several chemical products can be produced from the by-products of coal. Refined coal tar is used in the manufacture of chemicals, such as creosote oil, naphthalene, phenol, and benzene. Ammonia gas recovered from coke ovens is used to manufactureammonia salts, nitric acid and agricultural fertilisers. Thousands of different products have coal or coal by-products as components: soap, aspirins, solvents, dyes, plastics and fibres, such asrayon and nylon.  Coal is also an essential ingredient in the production of specialist products:      • Activated carbon - used in filters for water and air purification and in kidney dialysis machines.      • Carbon fibre - an extremely strong but light weight reinforcement material used in construction, mountain bikes and tennis rackets.  • Silicon metal - used to produce silicones and silanes, which are in turn used to make lubricants, water repellents, resins, cosmetics, hair shampoos and toothpastes.  Now ... I am happy to laugh at the accusations of being on the payroll of the oil or coal industry (I wish), and to add to their own propaganda that they must produce to counteract the massive falsehood dished out by the so called renewables industry.  However if you have an idea or an argument please use logic and common sense. To say that electric cars have "no emissions" is not true, not by a long shot.  And you must define what you consider emissions.   Human activity all produces collateral damage. It is a good argument to minimise such damage. It is a bad argument to invent a boogeyman like CO2 and call it damaging in order to generate a new market, milk massive subsidies to make that market that is non viable and non competitive, artificially possible  Collateral damage is in the form of industrial pollution, contamination, fail to include end of life disposal plans, unplanned pollution from additional activity to support a new product, like mining for rare earth, and many more you can figure out yourself. Electric cars will only add to this long list of collateral damage to the ecosystem due to new markets for new products and new demand distorted by the CO2 dogma pushing that we MUST do this or that to save the planet. And what we are really doing is making an even bigger mess, increase dependence on oil AND coal, and make a few people rich in the process and everyone else poorer.  Well everyone but me because I have that cheque from the coal industry right?

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## craka

> Ok Craka, you are a nice guy so I'll expand.
> Someone introduced a new concept ... "Coal emissions", to what I asked for a clarification since it is nonsense. Coal is a fuel, very cheap, used in furnaces all around the world in metallurgy. Certainly not in cars ... well with the exception of during the 2WW when lack of petrol made some ingenious folks run cars and even trucks on H2 plus CO from coal and even charcoal and wood fires. Very clever. 
> If we unleash a frenzy of electric cars however, then yes, the coal used in power stations will produce more CO2 and so there is a relation, but an inverse relation to what the electric cars supporters want I must imagine. So ... more electric cars, more CO2 from coal. 
> Surely each petrol or diesel car produces CO2 in the combustion of petrol or diesel. And also produces pollutants, real ones not imaginary like CO2 that is a beneficial gas.  
> So to your confusing question of the era of coal and steam vs the internal combustion engine ... which era is that? We are still using coal and steam to produce electricity, in fact 95 % of it, unless it is 96 or 94, someone will correct me. Hardly anyone produces electricity using diesel. Little towns in India perhaps. Actually in Moreton Island there is a diesel generator ... and I run a petrol generator when the electricity fails (sorry) , mostly because of the obsession with so called renewables ... so there you go.  
> But to conclude this thread that was lots of fun, let me say the following. With the honorable exception of John, to be or not to be but he is the only one here who put his money where his mouth is. He went to the _extreme_ of doing a grey import and buying a second hand electric car from Japan, build a large enough solar powered generator and run his electric toy ... sorry car, for free, and good for him, hat off. 
> The rest of the good people here, are debating *doctrine or* *dogma* since no one else has an electric car. They *like* electric cars because it fits the concept of CO2 being evil and menacing (pure nonsense again) so that is why such aggressive defense of a nice looking but distant reality.
> So why people here don't all have electric cars and only John2b has one? 
> Why? because it is a pie in the sky, just like talking about luxury Catamarans or nice Bentleys or buying your own island.  
> ...

  To my question regarding coal and steam vs the internal combustion engine, I think for most part the majority of people would have understood what I meant. For the point of being distinct, I had meant from the era of coal fired steam engines, not coal fired steam electric generators.  The last time I caught public transport, it wasn't a steam engine driven, I know I'm relatively young but I reasonably sure steam engines haven't been used for public transport for decades. 
Sorry I thought the discussion was about electric vehicles, however you seem to have a doctrine or mantra to be dismissive them having any benefit as you are a climate skeptic. But to break it to you I am not convinced either that humans are causing it global warming either, I do believe though humans are polluting the globe and that in itself is a far greater problem and is undeniable.   
I type this as I burn wood in my wood heater.  I also like the combustion engine, I have a diesel powered 4wd, a inline 4 supersport (still working on getting back on the road ) and love the sound internal combustion engines produce and will miss them when they eventually are phased out if I am still here at that time. 
Perhaps I am misinterpreting your argument but to me it appears as though you use any argument you can to be dismissive of electric vehicles including there rather high cost at the moment.  Technology changes have as far as I can remember always been taken up by those that can most afford them,  I'm reasonably sure that in the early 1900s not every family had a car, it was only those of affluence, it would have not been I believe until the 40s or 50s that cars became a relatively common thing for each family.    
As far the correlation to increase in emission from coal fire power station due to electric vehicles, yes that would happen to an extent, electric vehicles are far more energy efficient than petrol driven engines and once coal fired generation were rid of and replaced with renewable generation that would not be a problem.

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## John2b

> He went to the _extreme_ of doing a grey import and buying a second hand electric car from Japan, build a large enough solar powered generator and run his electric toy ... sorry car, for free, and good for him, hat off.

  I wouldn't call buying something online "extreme". At the time I didn't have a choice as I wanted a car that could use my spare (free) electricity and there weren't any immediately available at any price. Now the dealers have lots of ex-Japan Nissan Leafs on their lots at reasonable prices. The fact that an electric car is sensationally good was an unexpected bonus. But you won't catch me without a "cordless" car any more than you will ever catch me without a "cordless" drill.

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## craka

> Ok Craka, you are a nice guy so I'll expand.
> Someone introduced a new concept ... "Coal emissions", to what I asked for a clarification since it is nonsense. Coal is a fuel, very cheap, used in furnaces all around the world in metallurgy. Certainly not in cars ... well with the exception of during the 2WW when lack of petrol made some ingenious folks run cars and even trucks on H2 plus CO from coal and even charcoal and wood fires. Very clever. 
> If we unleash a frenzy of electric cars however, then yes, the coal used in power stations will produce more CO2 and so there is a relation, but an inverse relation to what the electric cars supporters want I must imagine. So ... more electric cars, more CO2 from coal. 
> Surely each petrol or diesel car produces CO2 in the combustion of petrol or diesel. And also produces pollutants, real ones not imaginary like CO2 that is a beneficial gas.  
> So to your confusing question of the era of coal and steam vs the internal combustion engine ... which era is that? We are still using coal and steam to produce electricity, in fact 95 % of it, unless it is 96 or 94, someone will correct me. Hardly anyone produces electricity using diesel. Little towns in India perhaps. Actually in Moreton Island there is a diesel generator ... and I run a petrol generator when the electricity fails (sorry) , mostly because of the obsession with so called renewables ... so there you go.  
> But to conclude this thread that was lots of fun, let me say the following. With the honorable exception of John, to be or not to be but he is the only one here who put his money where his mouth is. He went to the _extreme_ of doing a grey import and buying a second hand electric car from Japan, build a large enough solar powered generator and run his electric toy ... sorry car, for free, and good for him, hat off. 
> The rest of the good people here, are debating *doctrine or* *dogma* since no one else has an electric car. They *like* electric cars because it fits the concept of CO2 being evil and menacing (pure nonsense again) so that is why such aggressive defense of a nice looking but distant reality.
> So why people here don't all have electric cars and only John2b has one? 
> Why? because it is a pie in the sky, just like talking about luxury Catamarans or nice Bentleys or buying your own island.  
> ...

  To my question regarding coal and steam vs the internal combustion engine, I think for most part the majority of people would have understood what I meant. For the point of being distinct, I had meant from the era of coal fired steam engines, not coal fired steam electric generators.  The last time I caught public transport, it wasn't a steam engine driven, I know I'm relatively young but I reasonably sure steam engines haven't been used for public transport for decades. 
Sorry I thought the discussion was about electric vehicles, however you seem to have a doctrine or mantra to be dismissive them having any benefit as you are a climate skeptic. But to break it to you I am not convinced either that humans are causing it global warming either, I do believe though humans are polluting the globe and that in itself is a far greater problem and is undeniable.   
I type this as I burn wood in my wood heater.  I also like the combustion engine, I have a diesel powered 4wd, a inline 4 supersport (still working on getting back on the road ) and love the sound internal combustion engines produce and will miss them when they eventually are phased out if I am still here at that time. 
Perhaps I am misinterpreting your argument but to me it appears as though you use any argument you can to be dismissive of electric vehicles including there rather high cost at the moment.  Technology changes have as far as I can remember always been taken up by those that can most afford them,  I'm reasonably sure that in the early 1900s not every family had a car, it was only those of affluence, it would have not been I believe until the 40s or 50s that cars became a relatively common thing for each family.    
As far the correlation to increase in emission from coal fire power station due to electric vehicles, yes that would happen to an extent, electric vehicles are far more energy efficient than petrol driven engines and once coal fired generation were rid of and replaced with renewable generation that would not be a problem.

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## DavoSyd

> The phasing in of electric vehicles is a progression of technology in time, just as been happening since the industrial revolution.

  this thread was started with the idea that electric cars are actually worse for the environment than internal combustion engine powered cars. this is false and easily proven false.  
hence an arising conclusion might be that the OP gets paid by his overseers based on word counts.

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## John2b

As far as market acceptance of electric vehicles is concerned the issue is not cost of purchase or cost of fuel, the issue is cost of ownership and amenity of ownership. It is already cheaper to own an electric car when fuel, service costs and reliability are factored in. As a BMW car dealer told me last year "You only have to_ sell_ an electric car to a customer _once._ After that they do not want to by an internal combustion engine car again." Hence BMW (and all the other European manufacturers) have publicly announced that the current ICE platforms are the last that will be designed and all future vehicle platforms will be based on electric propulsion. It will take about 10 years for those changes to roll through production line model changes, and the manufacturers may of course decide to retain some ICE platforms in the meantime.

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## Marc

> hence an arising conclusion might be that the OP gets paid by his overseers based on word counts.

   :Roflmao:  
Please pretty please Davo, you are a learned person on this matters, tell me how do I do that? I would love to. 
Craka, I also have my feet up in front of a crakalin fire, and my answer to your last post is in my previous longish one ... (made long intentionally so I get paid more ... apparently)  _The rest of the good people here, are debating_ *doctrine or dogma since no one else has an electric car. They like electric cars because it fits the concept of CO2 being evil and menacing (pure nonsense again) so that is why such aggressive defense of a nice looking but distant reality.
So why people here don't all have electric cars and only John2b has one? 
Why? be**cause it is a pie in the sky, just like talking about luxury Catamarans or nice Bentleys or buying your own island.  * *We will all buy an electric car that can be plugged in a solar generator and be run for cheap when the price is competitive and comparable to equivalent petrol car, when it has an acceptable range and if it can do the job we require. The industry will determine that time. 
Meantime whoever spends the asking price for a new electric car as the market stands now in Australia is a fool and is throwing his money away for an ideal that merits a better cause. If you have that much money to spend on an electric car to show your groomed poodle in it parked in front of a trendy cafe in Newtown or Glebe, be my guest.  
I need a car to pull large loads along km of mud roads and through streams so electric for me is a bit further away. And so it is for 99 % of the rest of the stuff that gets moved around in australia on the back of DIESEL engines, yes, trucks and locomotives will stay diesel for some time to come. 
Waiting with baited breath * PS
I surely hope John does not have a groomed poodle to parade in front of a inner city cafe  :Smilie: 
Oh ... and I forgot ships, yes all those pesky little things you buy on line get moved mostly in large heavy STEEL containers made with coal, oh my... and on large STEEL ships, moved by enormous diesel engines and suck lots of bunker fuel. Lately someone invented little sails to push the ships around a bit cheaper. Very clever. Was it you John?  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> To my question regarding coal and steam vs the internal combustion engine, I think for most part the majority of people would have understood what I meant.

  Someone will get a Nobel Prize if they can work out what was the question for the answer given above  :Rolleyes:

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## John2b

> *So why people here don't all have electric cars and only John2b has one?*

   That's obvious to you at least. You've said more than once it's because I am an idiot.

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## Marc

Now now John, that wasn't my innuendo at all. Anyone that believes something and acts on such belief has my respect even if i don't believe the same to be true. 
How about those container ship sails?  :Smilie:

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## chrisp

Given Marc’s very high (and mighty) standards, I would have to assume that he is producing his own diesel from his own diesel production plant!   :Smilie:

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## Marc

Now that you mention it Chris, yes, I had a brief distraction a long time ago into biodiesel production, quickly dismissed as too difficult to source reliable base oil, and dangerous not to mention it would void my home insurance and probably arise the ire of the local council in due course. 
There is however a new kid on the block and that is plastic into diesel. Heat any plastic to 400 degree in the absence of O2 to turn it into gas, and then distill the gas back into a form of diesel that is much cleaner than the one we buy. Needs a bit more room than I have at the moment especially for the discarded plastic stockpile to make it viable. Some manufacturers of the machine that is very low tech, produce a mobile demonstration unit to be taken to places like schools or councils. 
That is one to ponder about.
Electric vehicles ... does the dynamo on the push bike count? I had one a long time ago to power the lights.

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## craka

I think for the most part the things stopping people currently adopting electric vehicles primarily is the upfront cost, secondary is the not being able to fast charge them.  
In regards to transport industry not adopting electric powered prime movers, Peter Fox was in support of electric vehicles once the capacity and infrastructure was there to support them. Linfox to be â€œfirst moverâ€ on electric vehicle technology | Logistics, Trucking & Transport News | Prime Mover Magazine 
 Tesla is currently working on a prime mover with a 800km range under a payload of 36Tonne. Tesla launches electric prime mover | Logistics, Trucking & Transport News | Prime Mover Magazine 
Then there is Australian company SEA Electric  producing electric powered commercial vehicles.  https://www.sea-electric.com/products/ 
Toll fleet Japan   https://www.tollgroup.com/news-and-m...ts-japan-fleet 
Albeit in it's infancy the transport industry is keen to use electric vehicles and not be burdened by the cost of running diesel engines.

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## METRIX

> Oh ... and I forgot ships, yes all those pesky little things you buy on line get moved mostly in large heavy STEEL containers made with coal, oh my... and on large STEEL ships, moved by enormous diesel engines and suck lots of bunker fuel. Lately someone invented little sails to push the ships around a bit cheaper. Very clever. Was it you John?

  Here's another carrot for you Marc.  
Studies have shown just one container ship around 6 football fields long that burns basically crude oil as a fuel, emits the equivalent pollution of 50 million cars. 
The emissions from just 15 of these mega ships produce more pollution than every car currently on every road road in the world !!!! 
Studies have also put a number of around 50,000 people prematurely die from diseases related to particle soot poisoning.

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## John2b

> Oh ... and I forgot ships, yes all those pesky little things you buy on line get moved mostly in large heavy STEEL containers made with coal, oh my... and on large STEEL ships, moved by enormous diesel engines and suck lots of bunker fuel. Lately someone invented little sails to push the ships around a bit cheaper. Very clever. Was it you John?

  Silly me - I thought ALL vehicles delivered from country of origin to customer would have to be transported the same way irrespective of the vehicle's onboard energy storage for propulsion. Apparently internal combustion engine vehicles magically float to the consumer making ownership of gas guzzling, particulate producing, polluting, public health damaging vehicles a virtue  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## METRIX

> Silly me - I thought ALL vehicles delivered from country of origin to customer would have to be transported the same way irrespective of the vehicle's onboard energy storage for propulsion. Apparently internal combustion engine vehicles magically float to the consumer making ownership of gas guzzling, particulate producing, polluting, public health damaging vehicles a virtue

  That's because you have been sniffing too many electrons, you have to give up this silly electric car John, it's going to kill you  :Tongue:  :Tongue:

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## Bros

> Here's another carrot for you Marc.  
> Studies have shown just one container ship around 6 football fields long that burns basically crude oil as a fuel, emits the equivalent pollution of 50 million cars. 
> The emissions from just 15 of these mega ships produce more pollution than every car currently on every road road in the world !!!! 
> Studies have also put a number of around 50,000 people prematurely die from diseases related to particle soot poisoning.

   You should have mentioned the last part of the article.

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## METRIX

> I think for the most part the things stopping people currently adopting electric vehicles primarily is the upfront cost, secondary is the not being able to fast charge them.  
> In regards to transport industry not adopting electric powered prime movers, Peter Fox was in support of electric vehicles once the capacity and infrastructure was there to support them. Linfox to be â€œfirst moverâ€ on electric vehicle technology | Logistics, Trucking & Transport News | Prime Mover Magazine 
>  Tesla is currently working on a prime mover with a 800km range under a payload of 36Tonne. Tesla launches electric prime mover | Logistics, Trucking & Transport News | Prime Mover Magazine 
> Then there is Australian company SEA Electric  producing electric powered commercial vehicles.  https://www.sea-electric.com/products/ 
> Toll fleet Japan   https://www.tollgroup.com/news-and-m...ts-japan-fleet 
> Albeit in it's infancy the transport industry is keen to use electric vehicles and not be burdened by the cost of running diesel engines.

  No it can't be true, I have read on this forum that electric vehicles are useless at towing or propelling heavy vehicles, and that Diesel is the only way. 
Funny that, Sea Drive has a measly 225kW  continuous 372kW max electric drive that delivers continuous torque of 1850Nm and max torque of 3500Nm, suitable to be retro installed in to vehicles with a GVM over 18T.
This cannot possibly be true, is sea Drive part of a malicious plot to trick us. 
Their pissy 70 kW continuous 134kW max is suitable for vehicles up to 4.5t, GVM

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## chrisp

> No it can't be true, I have read on this forum that electric vehicles are useless at towing or propelling heavy vehicles, and that Diesel is the only way. 
> Funny that, Sea Drive has a measly 225kW  continuous 372kW max electric drive that delivers continuous torque of 1850Nm and max torque of 3500Nm, suitable to be retro installed in to vehicles with a GVM over 18T.
> This cannot possibly be true, is sea Drive part of a malicious plot to trick us. 
> Their pissy 70 kW continuous 134kW max is suitable for vehicles up to 4.5t, GVM

  But, will it cope with towing on mud roads and through streams?  :Smilie:

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## Whitey66

Today I drove 1160 kms in 14 hours including stops. Show me an electric car that could do this and i'm in.

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## craka

> Today I drove 1160 kms in 14 hours including stops. Show me an electric car that could do this and i'm in.

  Was that on one tank?

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## Whitey66

> Was that on one tank?

   No, one fuel stop that took about 2 - 3 minutes to fill tank. Other stops were for rest, toilet and eating.
Do you know of an electric car that can do it on one charge? If not, I don't understand the reason for your question.

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## craka

There is not electric car capable of that range that I know of off one charge.   However ultra fast charging is making a lot of progress on reducing charging times.

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## woodbe

*Coal-fired power changes rainfall patterns* _(From the Renew magazine Issue 148)_ 
A 15 year international study has found that ultrafind particles (UFPs, smaller than 100 nanometres) emitted from coal-fired power stations and are changing rainfall patterns up to 1000km away. The joint research has been conducted in Australia, Europe, Mexico, China and Mongolia by Airborne Research Australia (ARA), affiliated with Flinders University, and Germany's Karlsruhe Institute of Technology. The team used small aircraft - a motorglider in Australia and winged 'trike' in Germany - that measure dust particles, trace gases, temperature, humidity, wind and energy balances. 
The results show that, despite filtrations systems, coal-fired stations emit more harmful UFP's than urban road traffic worldwide. Although difficult to detect, UFPs have been linked to increased respiratory issues. Natural events such as bushfires, dust storms and volcano eruptions do emit fine particles, but these are generally not as small as the nanometre range 
UFPs are emitted from smoke stacks at around 200m to 300m above seal level, from where they can easily spread several hundred kilometres in the low troposphere. They have an immense impact on meteorological systems, affecting cloud formation and rainfall events. This creates persistant downpours in areas further from the power station, while drying up others nearby - pointing to their influence on drought events. Before Port Augusta's coal-fired station closed in 2016 research were able to show it was the source of elevated levels of UFPs in Chinchilla, Queensland, 1400km to the north-east. 
Another ARA projet has begun to investigate methane plumes emitted from by coal-seam gas extraction via fracking in south-east Queensland and soon in north-west Western Australia. Methane has a large impact (causing approximately 25% of human-induced climate change according to US Environment Defense Fund analysis), and over 100-year period has an impact 34 times higher than CO2. In the first 20 years after its release into the atmosphere, methane is 84 times more potent than CO2.   http://airborneresearch.org.au

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## METRIX

> There is not electric car capable of that range that I know of off one charge.   However ultra fast charging is making a lot of progress on reducing charging times.

  Well actually there is, a Tesla Model X is capable of 594Ks per charge, so the 1160 / 2 is 580k, if one fuel stop was allowed then one charge is allowed, this will achieve  1188ks which comes in under the quoted 1160ks. 
And it's irrelevant anyway, as it was stated other stops for feed and toilet were taken, electric vehicle long distance driving habit is slightly different, as you would stop off at a fast charger and have a feed at the same time, no time lost because you were stopping to eat and it's a good chance to have a rest, then continue on your journey. 
The thinking of I must be able to do 600ks per charge and I must be able to recharge it in 2 minutes is just old way of thinking, this will never happen no matter how fast the charging process gets, so long journeys are approached in a different way.
The different way is not going to kill you, you will still get to the destination, probably more relaxed but just a little bit later then if you go as quick as you legally can in a conventional vehicle. 
This ranting video is quite appropriate.  https://youtu.be/sjfCOkQr_MI?t=683

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## John2b

> Today I drove 1160 kms in 14 hours including stops. Show me an electric car that could do this and i'm in.

  If you need a drill, don't use a hammer. No one ever said everyone has to use electric propulsion for everything.

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## Marc

No, it is not appropriate at all.
What you miss or choose to miss, is that most people ask the car to be a mean of transportation, not a flag to push an agenda. Electric cars today in Australia are a statement, not a vehicle. "Look at me, I am so virtuous that I drive an electric car, not your dinosaur tank guzzling fossil fuels".
The funniest part is that electric cars drive on fossil fuels indirectly, and will continue to do so, unless someone invents a better way to make power that is not solar or wind.  
Everyone is entitled to fly any flag he wants, unless you tell others what to do, then it is proselytism, bullying or other forms of antisocial behaviour.  
The advantages and disadvantages of electric cars are very obvious in isolation. As a proposition for transportation, they are not, simply because they ask the user for too much of a trade in, due to price and range.  
We would all be driving electric cars if it suit us. No one drives petrol or diesel cars as a choice because he likes the noise of the exhaust or the fumes or the vibrations. That is nonsense. I would buy a Humvee if I could find someone to convert to right hand drive. Would I do so to make an anti electric statement?
 Not really, It would be a practical choice for me. Not for John ... I understand that. No hard feelings. 
The difference that I wanted to show with this thread, is that electric car owners in their vast majority, use their choice of car to make a statement. I use my car for practical purposes. Off road on difficult stretches and towing is one of them. If I lived in inner city and drove only a few Km to shopping center, bowling club or golf club and back, i would seriously consider to convert a golf buggy for road use and plug it with the off peak water heater at night ... or perhaps do a grey import of some of those fancy tesla that go in Japan for a lot less.  
I think it is blatantly obvious that the fervorous push of the electric car concept, shows exactly what my point was at the beginning. Just like get up and the others who push their agenda in any way they can with total disregard to the rest, the electric car concept, is part of a political pseudo morality campaign even by those who never seen an electric car 100m away.  
I am sure that Mr Joe Average will buy an electric car next time he changes his car if the car dealer has one ready for him that suits him and has a comparable price, not before. In fact it will have to have an enticing advantage for him to change from a proven concept to a new untested one. It is the natural process of any marketing. 
The difference with marketing an electric car, as compared to marketing a new fridge, is that the fridge salesman will bend backwards to show the user the advantages of the new fridge, the electric car salesman, tells you that the long list of disadvantages have to be accepted "because this is the future", and if you don't accept it you are a dinosaur. 
That is not how you sell a car.
Best luck next time.

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## craka

> No, it is not appropriate at all.
> What you miss or choose to miss, is that most people ask the car to be a mean of transportation, not a flag to push an agenda. Electric cars today in Australia are a statement, not a vehicle. "Look at me, I am so virtuous that I drive an electric car, not your dinosaur tank guzzling fossil fuels".
> The funniest part is that electric cars drive on fossil fuels indirectly, and will continue to do so, unless someone invents a better way to make power that is not solar or wind.  
> Everyone is entitled to fly any flag he wants, unless you tell others what to do, then it is proselytism, bullying or other forms of antisocial behaviour.  
> The advantages and disadvantages of electric cars are very obvious in isolation. As a proposition for transportation, they are not, simply because they ask the user for too much of a trade in, due to price and range.  
> We would all be driving electric cars if it suit us. No one drives petrol or diesel cars as a choice because he likes the noise of the exhaust or the fumes or the vibrations. That is nonsense. I would buy a Humvee if I could find someone to convert to right hand drive. Would I do so to make an anti electric statement?
>  Not really, It would be a practical choice for me. Not for John ... I understand that. No hard feelings. 
> The difference that I wanted to show with this thread, is that electric car owners in their vast majority, use their choice of car to make a statement. I use my car for practical purposes. Off road on difficult stretches and towing is one of them. If I lived in inner city and drove only a few Km to shopping center, bowling club or golf club and back, i would seriously consider to convert a golf buggy for road use and plug it with the off peak water heater at night ... or perhaps do a grey import of some of those fancy tesla that go in Japan for a lot less.  
> I think it is blatantly obvious that the fervorous push of the electric car concept, shows exactly what my point was at the beginning. Just like get up and the others who push their agenda in any way they can with total disregard to the rest, the electric car concept, is part of a political pseudo morality campaign even by those who never seen an electric car 100m away.  
> ...

  
I believe I touched on this before, when the first car were put on the road, it was only those then too that wanted to make a statement, ie people of affluence. Early adopters of anything relatively new are generally those is in the financial position to do so.    But as more and more are purchased, and technology develops entry pricepoint reduces. 
At the moment ultrafast charging allows a full charge in 15minutes giving a range of 400kms, I believe this will get better but is already a huge advance in charging times.  
It will take a little time for infrastructure of EV charging points to catch up to the prevalence of service stations however this is similar to where petrol powered cars where at in 1910in Austraila. ie There were very few fuel stations, petrol was scarce and was purchased from the grocery store or pharmacy in tins, and back then cars only had a range of about 60km on a full tank.

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## UseByDate

My next EV? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWYRhaOd1PE

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## DavoSyd

> Today I drove 1160 kms in 14 hours including stops. Show me an electric car that could do this and i'm in.

  hmmm, might be a call for    
electric cars!

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## DavoSyd

> You should have mentioned the last part of the article.

  most of the recent articles regarding the "megaship" sulphur pollution mention the new IMO regulations coming into effect in January next year - is that what you are referring to? 
(hard to tell what your comment relates to due to the lack of referential material  METRIX provided)

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## Whitey66

> hmmm, might be a call for    
> electric cars!

  Swap the cars or swap the batteries? Batteries take 3 hours or more to swap but I like the idea of Swap'n'Go electric cars, when your tyres are worn out just swap it for one with new tyres. And somehow get the people who don't have electric cars to pay for it  :2thumbsup:

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## Whitey66

> If you need a drill, don't use a hammer. No one ever said everyone has to use electric propulsion for everything.

  Great analogy, electric vehicles are a bit more expensive than a hammer or a drill.
Oh I see now, people should buy 2 different cars, one for big trips and one for shorter trips to save the environment?
If your location is correct I can see why an electric car works for you. But the rest of Australia doesn't live on a tiny Island and most people have to work while the sun is shining so they can't charge their cars off their "excess" solar power because they drive them to work.

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## METRIX

> But, will it cope with towing on mud roads and through streams?

  Does every ICE vehicle cope with this? No so that's an irrelevant comment

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## chrisp

> *I need a car to pull large loads along km of mud roads and through streams so electric for me is a bit further away.*

   

> No it can't be true, I have read on this forum that electric vehicles are useless at towing or propelling heavy vehicles, and that Diesel is the only way. 
> Funny that, Sea Drive has a measly 225kW continuous 372kW max electric drive that delivers continuous torque of 1850Nm and max torque of 3500Nm, suitable to be retro installed in to vehicles with a GVM over 18T.
> This cannot possibly be true, is sea Drive part of a malicious plot to trick us. 
> Their pissy 70 kW continuous 134kW max is suitable for vehicles up to 4.5t, GVM

   

> But, will it cope with towing on mud roads and through streams?

   

> Does every ICE vehicle cope with this? No so that's an irrelevant comment

  I was just pointing out (tongue in cheek) that you might have overlooked two of Marc’s innumerable ‘needs’ that have to be satisfied to his utter complete satisfaction before he can be convinced! 
The future is pretty clear, and we will transition away from fossil fuels regardless of the wishes and interests of the naysayers.

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## Bros

> most of the recent articles regarding the "megaship" sulphur pollution mention the new IMO regulations coming into effect in January next year - is that what you are referring to? 
> (hard to tell what your comment relates to due to the lack of referential material  METRIX provided)

    The last part of the article asks the question as to why nuclear energy is not used for ship propulsion. They don’t give any more information but I believe it is cost, cost of fitting nuclear propulsion and cost of more skilled crew whereas the shipping companies pay peanuts for crew now.  https://newatlas.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

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## Bros

Well there you go today is the end of production of the VW Beetle so VW has some cash to invest in electric cars.

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## DavoSyd

> The last part of the article asks the question as to why nuclear energy is not used for ship propulsion. They don’t give any more information but I believe it is cost, cost of fitting nuclear propulsion and cost of more skilled crew whereas the shipping companies pay peanuts for crew now.  https://newatlas.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

  yes, hopefully the new SOx emissions rules will make nuclear more viable for bulk shipping. 
interesting stuff here: https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-...rchant-vessels 
e.g.    

> Rod Adams, Publisher, Atomic Insights. Founder Adams Atomic Engines, Inc. Former nuclear submarine engineer officer. C...Answered Sep 18, 2013  I do not agree with Satyajeet's analysis. I have participated in a number of studies comparing the total weight and space requirements of a nuclear power plant with a diesel propulsion system. Any time the journey is longer than a 7 day transit, nuclear wins. The longer the journey after that, the greater the nuclear advantage in minimizing the space and weight dedicated to propulsion and maximizing the space and weight available for carrying cargo.

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## Marc

> I was just pointing out (tongue in cheek) that you might have overlooked two of Marc’s innumerable ‘needs’ that have to be satisfied to his utter complete satisfaction before he can be convinced! 
> The future is pretty clear, and we will transition away from fossil fuels regardless of the wishes and interests of the naysayers.

  Chris, I have nothing to hide nor do I have an agenda, so I have no qualms in exposing what I do day to day, and what drives my choice of vehicle, that by the way is nothing out of the ordinary 4wd. May be a bit different from the piffy electronic "SUV" of today but still, nothing special besides the fact that i have 3 diff and can lock two of them and have more than normal clearance and a few other tricks, that any 4wd enthusiast can have with a few extra dollars.  
i don't impose my choice on others with pretend moral duties, and I go as far as saying that when the market will offer an electric that suits me and my lifestyle I will happily buy one. I will not buy one because of a religious belief that such is the future and the gods say so. 
And I say once more, where are your electric cars? How many to you own? And if not why not? Could it be because they are too dear and too impractical? If so we are on the same page, only you chose to virtue signal, and I say pull the other one.

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## John2b

> Great analogy, electric vehicles are a bit more expensive than a hammer or a drill.
> Oh I see now, people should buy 2 different cars, one for big trips and one for shorter trips to save the environment?
> If your location is correct I can see why an electric car works for you. But the rest of Australia doesn't live on a tiny Island and most people have to work while the sun is shining so they can't charge their cars off their "excess" solar power because they drive them to work.

  Like having different tools in your toolbox, the typical household in Australia already has more than two cars. They don't both need to be able to pull trailers up thirty degree mud slopes and have a range of 1000 kms. 
A round trip on the 'tiny' island I live on is close to 400km and there is no charging station at the other end. That's further than a round trip to Adelaide.
People on grid sell their excess solar electricity to the grid during the day electricity is in short supply, and could buy cheap electricity back overnight when the need to keep coal fired generators running creates an oversupply, thus charge their cars then when not being used and the grid is currently under-utilised. The average daily car milage in Australia for passenger cars is less than 40 km, which takes ~2 hours to replenish on a slow charger.

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## John2b

> The last part of the article asks the question as to why nuclear energy is not used for ship propulsion. They don’t give any more information but I believe it is cost, cost of fitting nuclear propulsion and cost of more skilled crew whereas the shipping companies pay peanuts for crew now.

  There is of course the problem that no government knows what to do with the retired nuclear powered vessels at end of life. The US is a crisis point with its nuclear fleet. The decommissioning of the first one, the USS Enterprise, is expected to more than a decade and a $1billion or more to dismantle, and there is no solution for where the contaminated waste will go. Any waste storage solution such as deep repositories are still decades away as all of the existing nuclear waste deep storage trial sites have suffered catastrophic failures. Russia just sinks its old nuclear fleet because they have no solution either.

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## chrisp

> Chris, I have nothing to hide nor do I have an agenda, so I have no qualms in exposing what I do day to day, and what drives my choice of vehicle, that by the way is nothing out of the ordinary 4wd. May be a bit different from the piffy electronic "SUV" of today but still, nothing special besides the fact that i have 3 diff and can lock two of them and have more than normal clearance and a few other tricks, that any 4wd enthusiast can have with a few extra dollars.  
> i don't impose my choice on others with pretend moral duties, and I go as far as saying that when the market will offer an electric that suits me and my lifestyle I will happily buy one. I will not buy one because of a religious belief that such is the future and the gods say so. 
> And I say once more, where are your electric cars? How many to you own? And if not why not? Could it be because they are too dear and too impractical? If so we are on the same page, only you chose to virtue signal, and I say pull the other one.

  Marc, you do indeed have an agenda. Why else would you start this thread with an opening line about electric vehicle owners being idiots? 
It seems to me that the bulk of the forum population is simply pointing out the holes in the reasons/barriers that you have been putting up. And John has been hitting the objections for-a-six with his practical experiences! 
As for me, our household has two cars, a small car and a stationwagon. Both are ICE powered. We don’t change our cars very often (one car we had for 25 years before we replaced it). However, I would certainly consider an electric vehicle when we next buy as I think it’d be ideal as a city runabout. 
BTW I’m not a vegetarian, but I respect their dietary choices and don’t feel any compulsion to start a disparaging thread on vegetarians or part-time vegetarians.

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## Spottiswoode

This thread appears to be heading along the lines of:   
Its a fun read!

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## chrisp

> Well there you go today is the end of production of the VW Beetle so VW has some cash to invest in electric cars.

  
There is a story in ‘The Age’ on the beetle shutdown, and the transition to EVs. https://www.theage.com.au/world/nort...10-p525t3.html     

> The end of the era comes at a turning point for Volkswagen as it rebounds from a scandal over cars rigged to cheat on diesel emissions tests. The company is gearing up for mass production of the battery-driven compact ID.3, a car that the company predicts will have an impact like that of the Beetle and the Golf by bringing electric mobility to a mass market.

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## METRIX

> I was just pointing out (tongue in cheek) that you might have overlooked two of Marcs innumerable needs that have to be satisfied to his utter complete satisfaction before he can be convinced! 
> The future is pretty clear, and we will transition away from fossil fuels regardless of the wishes and interests of the naysayers.

  I have no idea what Marc's needs are, as there is so much dribble amongst the posts its impossible to actually know what he is going on about now.
Just like most things that have progressed, from corded phone exchanges staffed by thousands of people just to connect you to another person to now everyone having a minuscule smart phone in their pocket more powerful than the first supercomputers and capable of connecting itself to other people almost anywhere in the country. 
To being able to turn on a tap and magically get hot and cold running water instead of having to stoke a fire to boil water thats after you hand pumped it from the bore in the backyard, and amazingly being able to simply flick a switch and light your house with clean pollution free light instead of having to burn kerosene or similar inside your house. 
The nay Sayers are always going to be nay sayers, that's because they hate change, they are scared of the unknown and think "someone" is going to take away their "thing" whatever that thing is and force them to use an inferior thing and they will have no choice but to comply. 
All the arguments on here against the introduction of electric vehicles is purely based on lack of knowledge and understanding, and simply being scared of change, so the only arguments that can be given are if it doesn't do 1000Km without a charge, and it cant be recharged in under 3 minutes and it has to cost $20,000 then it's inferior and will never be accepted and I won't accept it. 
When you listen to such rubbish from the nay sayers it's quite comical, how many of them have cordless drills ?, I bet everyone of them, how many of these can be charged in 3 minutes, none of them, how many nay sayers would go back to using a corded drill ?, none of them. 
The electric car industry is evolving right now, and just like any other emerging technology the first or 2nd or even 3rd generation will not be able to directly replace the existing technology because like anything improvements are made with each generation.
Electric vehicles have advanced so far so quickly that the likely hood of the masses having them as a standard form of transportation is looking highly likely within the next five to ten years. 
The first 4 stroke engine was built in 1876, it took until 1886 to commercially release a product to the people, that was 133 years ago, and apart from gaining more power, more efficiency the engine of today is not really that different to one from 1886. 
Modern electric vehicles as we know them today have only been around since 2006, not including the various electric vehicles that were in the industry since the 1800's. 
I'm talking an electric vehicle that directly competes with a modern ICE vehicle, they have only been in development for just on 13 years.
These vehicles required a whole new industry of new technologies to be invented, and all the nay sayers can keep saying is they don't do 1000ks on one charge, and you can't charge it in 2 minutes, see I told you, the technology is completely useless. 
I'm sure with 133 years of development the electric vehicles we see today will look like complete jokes with the vehicles of the future. 
Just like you are reading this on a nice cheap flat screen monitor instead of some clunky old CRT screen, you can't just get the latest and greatest electric vehicle that does everything for everyone off the bat, it's going to take a few years to get the various vehicles capable of covering the multiple sectors in the market that ICE vehicles do. 
And to the tin hats that are saying electric vehicles are just pushing the pollution back to the coal fired stations, yes to a degree this is true, but do you really think the gov'ts around the world don't know this, and is why they are implementing supplemental technologies / renewables to cope with the expected shift away from petroleum to electric. 
It has been mentioned on here that electric vehicle owners are idiots and are simply pushing the idealistic environmental values onto others to feel superior, what a load of rubbish, the complete opposite is true, all I have seen on here from some opposing the introduction of these new vehicles is they are the ones who are actually pushing their views onto everyone else, fortunately 98% of the other contributors also see how out of touch the 2% of nay sayers are. 
That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinions, just stop pushing your out of date opinions onto others who are actually looking forward to these advancements in technology and are interested in what's being developed. 
Your old out of touch views are no different to Vegans, yes there are valid points to animal cruelty which I agree with, but the way they go about getting "their" point across is backwards and basically bullying non vegans, which is why vegans are hated so much by others, there is the right and wrong way to get your point's across, and by simply calling electric vehicle drivers idiots and the other terms I have read them being referred to is not your call.

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## Marc

Taxis runnin electric hybrid cars are running on petrol because the batteries are too expensive to replace.
Just saying.  :Smilie:  
Metrix, I appreciate all your other contribution. Here you are blabbing on non stop. 
if electric cars are so good, why aren't you on one?
Answer because they are not ready for you, just like they are not ready for me.
Simple.
If you were so stupid as to buy one today, despite the fact that it would be almost useless for your work, you would indeed have one just to make a statement.
Fortunately you are not that stupid. 
Your enthusiasm for new things is noted. Your psychological profiling is also noted. No problems there. 
Still waiting for your new electric car.
Tell me when you have one and write a review so I can decide what to buy next. 
Meantime I am still searching for someone to convert a humvee to right hand drive for a decent price.
I'll keep you posted.  
Last year we were car hunting for my wife and tried the new mazda, subaru and hyundai. 
The Hyundai was gutless and was struggling up a barely noticeable hill. I was mumbling in my beard whilst my daughter was driving I was sitting in the bak seat with the salesman that took 3/4 of the back seat with his generous proportions. I made a comment about this lacklustre performance to what he started to pontificate on teh virtues of the car and how it drives on the smell of avocado oil rag and other very interesting yet extremely boring stuff. So he asked me what I was driving to what i replied to annoy him that I drive a humvee. 
I can still see his face turn purple and he started to spit out venom about the environment and how could I drive such monster guzzling atrocity, he was livid. Like a seven day adventist pastor whose daughter wants to marry a Jehovah witness. 
Funny how things are. People climb their high and white horses and harangue the crowd below yet never stop to look in the mirror. I could have told him that he should pay double medicare levy due to his double size and how he will be a drag on the system anytime soon. 
And we did not buy the hyundai and settled for the Subaru. A pearl of a car. Not electric dhough. Sorry. Maybe next time.  :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> Taxis runnin electric hybrid cars are running on petrol because the batteries are too expensive to replace.
> Just saying.

  Taxis are running hybrid because Hybrid was really brought to market by Toyota in the pathetic thing called a Prius. it has nothing to do with batteries being too expensive it has to do with Toyota dragging their feet investing in fully electric vehicles.
The Hybrid technology has moved into Camry and other Toyotas, Toyota has (as always) been very conservative with new technology and (as always) very slow to change, with the demise of the local manufacturing the Camry has become the defacto TAXI. 
You will find many articles / debates on why Toyota is one of the main manufacturers to NOT have any fully electric vehicles, the underlying answer is that Toyota believes it's Hybrid technology is the future.  
It has also been noted that Toyota is now falling way behind the 8ball as, over half of Toyota's Prius customers in the US have defected to Tesla Model 3, now Toyota is starting to get worried they have made the wrong decision, they have only recently signed a deal with Panasonic to develop fully electric Toyota's some time in the future, it is only because of Prius defectors that they have acted, as this is their pride and joy.   

> Metrix, I appreciate all your other contribution. Here you are blabbing on non stop. 
> if electric cars are so good, why aren't you on one?

  
I am not blabbing on, I am trying to make seance of some of the discussions, but truthfully a lot of the information against is just propaganda. 
I don't own an electric vehicle for various reasons, mostly because nobody has made one that suits my need (but they will) if Ford, or Toyota (actually forget Toyota as explained above) or another manufacturer released an electric line of 4WD utes directly equivalent to something like a Ranger at a reasonable price then I would be seriously taking a look. 
But as nobody makes anything like that, it's still ICE diesel for me, Rivian is the only real UTE that will go into production soon, Ford has invested significantly into Rivian, so it looks like there will be F150, / Ranger type electric vehicles available in the coming years.
As I don't require a conventional Hatchback, SUV or sedan, (I haven't owned one of these for many years) then I wouldn't be buying one purely because it's electric as I have no use for them.   

> If you were so stupid as to buy one today, despite the fact that it would be almost useless for your work, you would indeed have one just to make a statement.
> Fortunately you are not that stupid.

  Marc you have to stop calling people stupid, I don't think people who choose to buy an electric car now are stupid, that's their choice, just like it's your choice to buy a big 4WD, I don't call you stupid for doing that because you feel it's the vehicle that best suits you. 
You have to drop this belief that people buying electric vehicles are doing this so they can feel superior to ICE drivers, and push their environmental moralistic ideals onto others because I don't agree, this may have been the hidden agenda with the Prius but now with pure electric vehicles there are many other reasons to buy one. 
Your assumption is incorrect, If I did buy an electric vehicle it would not be as you say to make a statement, it would be because I want one.   

> Meantime I am still searching for someone to convert a humvee to right hand drive for a decent price.
> I'll keep you posted.

  
I wouldn't bother with that, Humvee are notorious for having problems, ride like POS and costing a fortune to fix / service so I would be giving that idea the flick, I can make an assumption you are only wanting a HUMVEE to make a statement, or compensating for something that may bee not working as it used to be when you were younger  :Rolleyes:  
Anyway this topic has turned into one of simply bashing electric car drivers and using it to voice your own political views and has become rather boring and repetitive. 
A bit like some friends I have who the husband has very strong political views, the wife not so, so when you go for dinner, the husband will always manipulate the conversation into a political one (I hate talking politics personally because they are all over-payed BS artists), I don't get involved in the conversation and the wife will tell the husband to stop pushing his political views (she is also not into politics) he will stand his ground and say I'm not, I'm just saying and it goes around in circles, quite amusing but annoying at the same time.

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## METRIX



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## METRIX



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## METRIX



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## Marc

Yes, the compensation card came out finally! ... ha ha, my father used to bring that up every time he saw someone with grey hair and a big red convertible usually accompanied by someone 20 years younger.  
So, you don't have an electric truck because there is none. Yes we are in the same boat. Would love to recharge plugging in the off peak. Wonder if that will become possible? Likely not, my prediction is that they will take off-peak off, and slug us a virtual excise tax on all electricity for good measure. 
  My Toyota is up to 350k km and going strong, but may be not for much longer. The only two I would consider today is another land cruiser or a ford ranger. I would buy a 75 series in a flash if they made them automatic. Yes I can convert to but at a ridiculous cost. So short of the sahara, the ranger seems an attractive proposition. How long till the F150 comes electric for a similar price? May be too long. 
Meantime diesel is the go. Sorry for all those millions of premature dead i am responsible for.  
As for unwanted political debates, yes in Australia we are notorious for sticking our head in the sand and sing la la la la la. That is how we get saddled with legislation like the gender fluidity, and the "human right" (read the other guys rights) commission and the "multiculturalism" that is working so well and I can go on for days. Can you imagine if we were in the Hong Kong predicament? Legislation would pass with no fuss. We would all be singing la la la la la la and perhaps returning terrorists for humanitarian reasons and feeling good about it. 
We are still in a better position than other places. Let's enjoy it till it lasts. 
Au revoir, it has been fun, and as always no hard feelings. From my side anyway.

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## John2b

> ... why Toyota is one of the main manufacturers to NOT have any fully electric vehicles, the underlying answer is that Toyota believes it's Hybrid technology is the future.

   Not any more. Toyota has realised they are their business model has failed and Toyota has been forced to buy into BEV platforms from other manufacturers to avoid catastrophic loss of market share. Expect to see an explosion of Toyota non-hybrid electric cars in the next couple of years.

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## METRIX

> Not any more. Toyota has realised they are their business model has failed and Toyota has been forced to buy into BEV platforms from other manufacturers to avoid catastrophic loss of market share. Expect to see an explosion of Toyota non-hybrid electric cars in the next couple of years.

  Yes, quite silly as one of the biggest manufacturers Toyota has left it a bit late to be injecting money to design their own stuff, so initially they will have to buy the technology, probably not such a bad thing initially.
Panasonic must be making a killing with all it's partnerships, and should see quite a hansom profit from their deals with Toyota. 
The new deal between Toyota and Panasonic (51% Toyota 49% Panasonic) will see them both supply Mazda, Daihatsu, and Honda. 
Will be interesting to see what emerges from these companies, with the prices of batteries dropping at an amazing rate, may not be to long until we see reasonable priced electric vehicles.

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## Marc

https://www.maxim.com/rides/arnold-s...-humvee-2017-9

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## METRIX

> Would love to recharge plugging in the off peak. Wonder if that will become possible? Likely not, my prediction is that they will take off-peak off, and slug us a virtual excise tax on all electricity for good measure. 
> .

  I don't see that they could just take it away, as the current way the power system is plumbed in they need off peak to take energy from the powerstations as they are still ticking over and cannot be switched off. 
One queensland supplier "Powershop" is offering a Super Off Peak rate between 12 and 4am of 9.9c / kw this has been introduced to entice electric car owners to switch to them, so I would imagine competition in this sector, because they will be stealing profits directly from petroleum companies so they should be rubbing their hands enticing them to plug in.

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## METRIX



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## Marc

https://youtu.be/ZSz5Dn0DhAk 
My though at watching this is ... how much would a repair like this cost in Sydney ... and how much in Launceston? 
Looong way for EV in Australia.

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## Marc

Meantime in San Francisco  :Rofl5:   https://youtu.be/jKv_N0IDS2A

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## METRIX

> https://youtu.be/ZSz5Dn0DhAk 
> My though at watching this is ... how much would a repair like this cost in Sydney ... and how much in Launceston? 
> Looong way for EV in Australia.

  Rich builds Tesla's from bits and pieces he scavenges off write off cars, so his cars are not indicative of the brand, his are Frankenstein cars.

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## Marc

I like the Truckla build. A bit more up my alley. Now I need to add lots of yeast and make it 50% bigger.  :Smilie:

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## METRIX



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## Bros

Bit of a galah but has a few good points   http://youtu.be/euGIg7lp3XY

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## Spottiswoode

> Bit of a galah but has a few good points   http://youtu.be/euGIg7lp3XY

  Lot of a galah IMO. I’ve stopped watching the self proclaimed ‘auto expert’ some time ago and would warn others not to watch John Cadogan as well. He carries on about stuff to generate clicks to promote his business as a car buying service.

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## METRIX

> Bit of a galah but has a few good points   http://youtu.be/euGIg7lp3XY

  I can't stand that guy, the only way he thinks he can get his point across is by putting down others and speaking bad of where they live.

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## PhilT2

> Lot of a galah IMO. I’ve stopped watching the self proclaimed ‘auto expert’ some time ago and would warn others not to watch John Cadogan as well. He carries on about stuff to generate clicks to promote his business as a car buying service.

  Wow! You mean that people on the internet just say things just to promote their business and make money? Somebody better let Marc know this is going on.

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## John2b

It is a shame that people like John Cadogan speak outside of their knowledge base about electric propulsion. Torque delivery and pulling power are one of the greatest advantages of electric motors over internal combustion engines, and they are so efficient there are still benefits in reduced fossil energy use and emissions even when coal, oil or gas is used to generate the electricity to charge batteries. 
Electric car versus V-8 Supercar: https://youtu.be/6eGhjhx8O9M

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## Bloss

> It is a shame that people speak outside of their knowledge base about electric propulsion. Torque delivery and pulling power are one of the greatest advantages of electric motors over internal combustion engines, and they are so efficient there are still benefits in reduced fossil energy use and emissions even when coal, oil or gas is used to generate the electricity to charge batteries. 
> Electric car versus V-8 Supercar: https://youtu.be/6eGhjhx8O9M

  The mining industry is well down this path with autonomous EVs eg: https://www.mining.com/rio-tinto-aut...bara-material/ AND https://electrek.co/2018/08/30/volvo...le-prototypes/.  Caterpillar, Komatsu and others are all supplying them at a faster rate than ever. Performance is improved, mechanical maintenance costs are lower - and of course this kills workers on high wages. As Fortescue says - they want all mining operations to be automated within 5 years.

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## John2b

Electric dumper: Produces more power than it uses
A heavily rebuilt Komatsu HD605 is being tested in Switzerland. If the calculations are correct, the electric dumper should produce more power than it uses. Thus, it can supply power to the fixed network during breaks. 
A 590 kW, 9,500 N.m electric mining dumper truck, known as the eDumper, uses 30 kWh to travel uphill (unloaded, and can regenerate 40 kWh of electricity when driving back downhill fully loaded   https://translate.google.com/transla...ruker%2F425766

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## Bros

> It is a shame that people like John Cadogan speak outside of their knowledge base about electric propulsion. Torque delivery and pulling power are one of the greatest advantages of electric motors over internal combustion engines, and they are so efficient there are still benefits in reduced fossil energy use and emissions even when coal, oil or gas is used to generate the electricity to charge batteries.]

  Strange answer from you as he belongs to your church preaching to the reduction of use of fossil fuel.

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## UseByDate

> Electric dumper: Produces more power than it uses
> A heavily rebuilt Komatsu HD605 is being tested in Switzerland. If the calculations are correct, the electric dumper should produce more power than it uses. Thus, it can supply power to the fixed network during breaks. 
> A 590 kW, 9,500 N.m electric mining dumper truck, known as the eDumper, uses 30 kWh to travel uphill (unloaded, and can regenerate 40 kWh of electricity when driving back downhill fully loaded   https://translate.google.com/transla...ruker%2F425766

  I am a little confused. Aren't mines generally holes in the ground? That is the trucks travel uphill when loaded and downhill when empty.

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## Bedford

This is hilarious, 2b's confusing his PCVs and EGRs again.

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## Bros

> I am a little confused. Aren't mines generally holes in the ground? That is the trucks travel uphill when loaded and downhill when empty.

   The holy grail of energy “perpetual motion”.

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## UseByDate

> Taxis are running hybrid because Hybrid was really brought to market by Toyota in the pathetic thing called a Prius. it has nothing to do with batteries being too expensive it has to do with Toyota dragging their feet investing in fully electric vehicles.

  This taxi is not technically a hybrid. It does have a petrol powered range extender to charge the battery if needed.  
 It has a range of 80 miles using the battery (plug in charged). According to the video, the average speed in London is 8 MPH. The range is therefore 10 hours. With lunch breaks and sitting in taxi ranks it could be recharged during the shift. Even running with the range extender on and taking into consideration of the leasing cost, the electric taxi is cheaper to run that the old diesel Taxi.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOxnJQP2_0E

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## METRIX

> This taxi is not technically a hybrid. It does have a petrol powered range extender to charge the battery if needed.  
>  It has a range of 80 miles using the battery (plug in charged). According to the video, the average speed in London is 8 MPH. The range is therefore 10 hours. With lunch breaks and sitting in taxi ranks it could be recharged during the shift. Even running with the range extender on and taking into consideration of the leasing cost, the electric taxi is cheaper to run that the old diesel Taxi.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOxnJQP2_0E

  I hope these ride better then the current ones, they have some of these in Sydney and they are the worst riding thing I have ever been in

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## UseByDate

> I hope these ride better then the current ones, they have some of these in Sydney and they are the worst riding thing I have ever been in

    Have you ever travelled in a bus?You have to be fit, strong and healthy to survive a bus trip. It often feels like the suspension has bottomed out.

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## John2b

> Strange answer from you as he belongs to your church preaching to the reduction of use of fossil fuel.

   I don't belong to any "church".

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## John2b

> I am a little confused. Aren't mines generally holes in the ground? That is the trucks travel uphill when loaded and downhill when empty.

   A hole in the ground at which the ore is loaded can still be a higher elevation than the point at the dumper unloads. An ICE burns energy both up the hill and down the hill, whereas a BEV uses energy going up and stores energy going down, including the potential energy stored in the weight of ore carried, if carried downhill. It's like hydropower except using ore, not water. Of course if the ore is offloaded at a higher elevation than loaded there will be net energy used, not gained. But with electric propulsion that added energy can still be recovered if the ore is taken down to the coast for shipping, for example.

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## Bros

> I don't belong to any "church".

   My mistake as I thought you worshiped the wind and sun.

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## METRIX

> A hole in the ground at which the ore is loaded can still be a higher elevation than the point at the dumper unloads. An ICE burns energy both up the hill and down the hill, whereas a BEV uses energy going up and stores energy going down, including the potential energy stored in the weight of ore carried, if carried downhill. It's like hydropower except using ore, not water. Of course if the ore is offloaded at a higher elevation than loaded there will be net energy used, not gained. But with electric propulsion that added energy can still be recovered if the ore is taken down to the coast for shipping, for example.

  Australia leads the world in automating the mines with the current crop of trucks, no drivers and they have seen a 30% increase in productivity, they have been doing it this way for years.
We also have Automated Drilling Systems, and Automated trains for hauling the stuff  https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...11-p51dd2.html  https://www.australianmining.com.au/...nne-milestone/

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## Marc

> It is a shame that people like John Cadogan speak outside of their knowledge base about electric propulsion. Torque delivery and pulling power are one of the greatest advantages of electric motors over internal combustion engines, and they are so efficient there are still benefits in reduced fossil energy use and emissions even when coal, oil or gas is used to generate the electricity to charge batteries. 
> Electric car versus V-8 Supercar: https://youtu.be/6eGhjhx8O9M

  Actually I find what he has to say about electric cars at this point in time in Australia perfectly reasonable. I understand you may not like it. I don't like the way he says it nor his reference to Australia as shitville, but his point are right mostly. 
And if he makes money with his videos and car advice, good for him. The way to refute his points is to quote them and explain where he is wrong. $15k extra is too much to pay for something that is second grade. That is his point.  
As for the mining truck that "makes" more power than it uses, if there was a politically motivated shise statement ever made that is one.
No one can "make" more power than it uses. The truck uses electricity to go up hill, then gets loaded by a machine that uses a shise load of energy to dig and load, and the gravity delivers back a fraction of that energy into the truck when it goes downhill through the generators built into the wheels as breaks,  that converts it into electricity minus another shise load of losses.  
There is nothing magical about electric motors nor electric vehicles. 
Electric motors are in fact a misnomer. They do convert electricity into mechanical energy but they do so second hand, after they get provided with the electricity from a generator that does the real conversion. Rather pathetic if you ask me and just like a pneumatic tool or hydraulic that spins only due to the energy stored in the compressed air, compressed by a motor elsewhere, or oil pushed by a motor elsewhere. The compressed air is the electricity, the motor is just like a little fan that turns when you blow on it.   
Never heard of Diesel Locomotives? They are called diesel because the power originates from diesel fuel. Yes, the big Detroit or Alco or MAN engine turns a DC generator that is hooked up to an electric motor that in turn, turns the wheels.  
Why you ask? Not because of love of electric motors, but because a gearbox that size would be hard to build and not near as flexible. The electric motor is there only as a middle man, doing the bidding a gearbox does in any other vehicle.  
It is the same with electric cars and likewise they should be called "coal cars", since the energy they drive on is originated from coal. 
I think EV are only a provisional fist step away from petrol and will not last. The amount of energy that needs to be produced elsewhere in some central location, transported to the batteries and stored there to be delivered slowly to push the contraption eventually to the magical 500 km, makes the battery a ticking bomb. Just like petrol you say? Apparently much worse, but that is only opinion from the fireman who must attend the fires and can not extinguish them.  
The future lays in a yet to be invented real motor, not second hand delivery boy, that actually produces energy from an inert and cheap source of energy.
That is a motor and that is the future. Electric motors are old hat, invented in 1828 and not the future by a long shot. 
Futurology is a funny business. i am still waiting for the flying cars that should have been common in the year 2000 or so they told me ... in 1960. 
They do exist mind you, and they are hybrid. But they are far from "the future" 
The future flying car in my mind is like you see in the movie "The fifth element"   :Smilie:  
The future? Unlikely. Hybrid motor they say, and show you the thing in flight whilst the motor recharges the battery.  :Annoyed: Perpetual motion?
Not yet. https://youtu.be/JgeMJ1hX9KI

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## UseByDate

> There is nothing magical about electric motors nor electric vehicles. 
> Electric motors are in fact a misnomer. They do convert electricity into mechanical energy but they do so second hand, after they get provided with the electricity from a generator that does the real conversion. Rather pathetic if you ask me and just like a pneumatic tool or hydraulic that spins only due to the energy stored in the compressed air, compressed by a motor elsewhere, or oil pushed by a motor elsewhere. The compressed air is the electricity, the motor is just like a little fan that turns when you blow on it.   
> Never heard of Diesel Locomotives? They are called diesel because the power originates from diesel fuel. Yes, the big Detroit or Alco or MAN engine turns a DC generator that is hooked up to an electric motor that in turn, turns the wheels.

  Marc,
 You have started an argument that only pedantic English language speaking engineers (like myself) would start but I don't think that you understand what you are arguing. You are describing the difference between an engine and a motor. An engine creates energy within itself (usually chemical conversion) to create motion and motor uses energy generated outside of itself to create motion. A motor car is called a motor car because the first motorised carriages used electric motors. For about 100 years they should have been called “engine cars” not “motor cars”.
 In everyday language the term engine and motor are interchangeable. Some argue that an engine is a type of motor. 
 I don't think the distinction applies in other languages. I am not a linguist so you can correct me if I am wrong. Also historically the term engine just meant a contrivance or machine for doing something useful. Today it can also be used in software as in a “search engine”.  
 They are actually called _diesel electric_ locomotives if an electric motor drives the wheels.

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## Marc

Mm ... Use, I am happy to discuss semantics within different languages but that would be rather pointless because how things are called in different languages depends from conventions and usage. 
And there are a lot of examples of the reverse convention so the assumed meaning in English is also not very valid considering I drive a motorboat (as opposed to a sailboat) that is driven by a diesel engine. So what is the engine in a sailboat?  Or is it a motor? Rhetorical question does not need answer  :Smilie: 
And diesel locomotive are diesel locomotive and will always be diesel locomotive in any language. Sure they use Diesel Electric transmission.  
The point is that electric motors need their food already chewed up and digested, and that makes them an unlikely motor for "the future", rather an old contraption that is highly dependent and rigid in what you can feed it. 
So the EV are actually Coal/electric then? 
And to follow on your lead, if we accept that engine is the one converting energy, the motor is then subservient to the engine and its value also depending from how the energy is created. 
Considering that we don't have a decent source of energy outside conventional coal, hydro or nuclear, the electric motor is clearly a bad choice for those who think that conventional sources are bad for the environment. 
The EV is a moot argument when we don't have an equivalent "good" source of energy. 
Like the vegetarian who is happy to buy leather shoes. 
And of course the idea that the hauling truck "makes" more energy than it uses is pure nonsense.

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## Whitey66

Well EVs are really sun/electric if you disregard the time frame  :Wink: 
The power from that coal came from sunlight millions of years ago, all power comes from the sun therefore ICE cars are running on solar energy  :2thumbsup:

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## Marc

Only if you ae an evolutionist. If you are a creationist, that does not apply.  :Smilie: 
So it all comes down to what you want to believe. After all we don't even know what is really out there. It could all be a holographic illusion.  :Smilie:

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## Whitey66

> Only if you ae an evolutionist. If you are a creationist, that does not apply. 
> So it all comes down to what you want to believe. After all we don't even know what is really out there. It could all be a holographic illusion.

  I rather like this theory - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz6WmzeCXzQ

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## Marc

Why is the universe round? ... And why does that car make an illegal u turn? Is it an electric car belonging to an anarchist hippie?

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## John2b

> And of course the idea that the hauling truck "makes" more energy than it uses is pure nonsense.

  The truck does not make any energy at all. However there is 'potential energy' in of something with weight that equals its mass x the height it can fall x gravity. What happens when a truck loaded with ore travels downhill, the potential energy in the once elevated ore is converted to electrical energy by regenerative braking in the truck on way down the hill as the ore is lowered. Going back up the hill to receive another load of ore, the truck is lighter without a load and does not use as much energy to climb up as it regenerated rolling down with a load.

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## Marc

Yes, John, that seems obvious. My point is ... that the potential energy is donated by a monster machine that grinds and digs and loads the truck, powered by 15 megawatts of electricity. Whatever pitiful amount of hobby energy is recovered by the brakes of the hauler seems to be a rather academic and politically correct distraction to make. Sure it is good not to waste it. 
Mining and hauling material requires energy, produced by diesel or coal. Not electricity. 
Electric motors may be one convenient way to use the energy produced by coal or diesel. Electric motors do not make much at all, just like the copper cables do not. 
It is still coal and diesel so far.
We could have hydro ... but the greens don't let us and the government has lost it's gonads a long time ago ... probably dropped them in the lake around parliament house?

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## John2b

> Yes, John, that seems obvious. My point is ... that the potential energy is donated by a monster machine that grinds and digs and loads the truck, powered by 15 megawatts of electricity.

   The potential energy added by the scoop is just the height of the ore from the level at which it is dug to the level of the truck - not much energy in the scheme of things. The difference between electric propulsion is the ability to recover energy and reuse it. Normally the potential energy would be dissipated to the environment during the downhill run as noise, hot exhaust gas and heat from the radiator and brakes. 
The Komatsu HD 605-7 dumper weighs 45 tons when empty with its 4.5 ton 700 kWh battery, has 65 tons of load capacity, and is designed to work on slopes of up to 13 percent under harsh environmental conditions. Instead of heating up the environment with waste heat during the descent, the electric engine generates 40 kWh to recharge the battery pack during each descent from the quarry on the slopes of the Chasseral to the Ciments Vigier SA cements works near Biel, netting 10 kWh of energy per round trip. The 200kWh netted during a day's 20 round trips is exported to the grid. 
Electric powered large large-scale construction machines are also ideal for use in areas that are sensitive to exhaust gas and noise, such as tunnel construction or in residential areas.

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## John2b

I just downloaded the Nissan official service manual for my Leaf electric car. The first service item, with the exception of inspections, is to replace the motor controller coolant at 200,000 km or 10 years, whichever comes first. No wonder the Nissan garages around Australia did not want to sell the Leaf!!! 
Edit - not true, brake fluid needs to be replaced at 2 yearly intervals as well.

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## Marc

Irrelevant. No super Bagger, no potential energy. Ergo, negative energy balance. 
Switch the Bagger off, and see what you do with the electric hauler. May be a nice sculpture in the desert.

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## John2b

> Actually I find what he has to say about electric cars at this point in time in Australia perfectly reasonable. I understand you may not like it.

  My post has nothing to do with what I like or dislike; in my post I pointed out two factual errors that Codogan made, presumably through his ignorance of the topic he was talking about. I made no comment or judgement about anything else he said.

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## John2b

> Never heard of Diesel Locomotives? They are called diesel because the power originates from diesel fuel. Yes, the big Detroit or Alco or MAN engine turns a DC generator that is hooked up to an electric motor that in turn, turns the wheels.  
> Why you ask? Not because of love of electric motors, but because a gearbox that size would be hard to build and not near as flexible. The electric motor is there only as a middle man, doing the bidding a gearbox does in any other vehicle.

  So the electric motor is there so that the diesel can operate at the rpm necessary for high efficiency and torque. A direct-drive diesel locomotive even with a large number of gears to keep the engine within its high efficiency power band, like the 15 or so gears of a prime mover, would still have no torque at start-off, unlike an electric motor that has 100% of torque at zero rpm. Using the generator/electric motor eliminates this problem whilst minimising fuel consumption by allowing the diesel engine to run at peak performance revs all of the time, and also allows a train to accelerate much more rapidly from standstill.

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## John2b

> Irrelevant. No super Bagger, no potential energy. Ergo, negative energy balance. 
> Switch the Bagger off, and see what you do with the electric hauler. May be a nice sculpture in the desert.

  What is your point? What is your diesel powered dumper going to do under the same "No super Bagger" circumstances? Answer: may be a nice sculpture in the desert.

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## Marc

Well, we have digressed into irrelevant banter. May point was initially that the truck does not make energy, just recovers a bit of what the bagger dumps on it at a very high energy cost. Not that the set up is useless, only that it's glorification is stupid.

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## UseByDate

> And diesel locomotive are diesel locomotive and will always be diesel locomotive in any language. Sure they use Diesel Electric transmission.

  I have always known them to be called diesel electric locomotives, so I googled it. You are correct that they are sometimes called diesel locomotives, but the more I looked, even in the same article the name changes. https://edisontechcenter.org/Dieseltrains.html

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## John2b

> May point was initially that the truck does not make energy, just recovers a bit of what the bagger dumps on it at a very high energy cost. Not that the set up is useless, only that it's glorification is stupid.

  Mining companies are not going to convert to BEV because of glorification, they will use electric dumpers when it saves the company money and in turn creates returns for shareholders, nothing more, nothing less.

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## John2b

> Never heard of Diesel Locomotives? They are called diesel because the power originates from diesel fuel. Yes, the big Detroit or Alco or MAN engine turns a DC generator that is hooked up to an electric motor that in turn, turns the wheels.  
> Why you ask? Not because of love of electric motors, but because a gearbox that size would be hard to build and not near as flexible. The electric motor is there only as a middle man, doing the bidding a gearbox does in any other vehicle.

  Now the big Detroit, Alco and MANs are adding batteries into the diesel electric equation. Why? Because adding even one battery-powered locomotive to a train can reduce the trains total fuel consumption by as much as 15 percent. Fuel costs are typically the largest component in a rail operators costs, and 15% is a big deal.

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## UseByDate

> I have always known them to be called diesel electric locomotives, so I googled it. You are correct that they are sometimes called diesel locomotives, but the more I looked, even in the same article the name changes. https://edisontechcenter.org/Dieseltrains.html

  More googling and I found the following. There are three types of diesel locomotives. The one with electric final drive is called diesel electric.    https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/D...sel-mechanical   *“Diesel-mechanical*
 Diesel-mechanical locomotives have a heavy-duty gearbox, much like that of a truck or a ship, through this, drive-shafts, differentials and powered-axles the engine drives the wheels. Direct-drive and coupling-rods are the normal final-drive systems for transferring power.   *Diesel-hydraulic*
 Diesel-hydraulic locomotives are much the same as their diesel-mechanical cousins, but they have a torque-converter instead of a gearbox. The converter has a viscous (thick) fluid inside that transfers the power based on how much speed, or how much power, the engine is producing. Direct-drive is the normal final-drive system for transferring power.  *Diesel-electric*
 Diesel-electric locomotives use a diesel engine(s) to power an electric-generator, which produces direct current (DC) electricity for the axle mounted traction-motors. These are called DC-traction diesel locomotives. Some modern diesel-electric locomotives use microprocessors (computer-chips) to allow the use of alternating current (AC) electricity to be produced, by similar means, for AC traction-motors. They often give more horsepower, and are called AC-traction diesel locomotives. Direct-drive, coupling-rods and gears have all been used on diesel-electrics, though direct- and geared-drive are the most common final-drives.”

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## Spottiswoode

> Well, we have digressed into irrelevant banter. May point was initially that the truck does not make energy, just recovers a bit of what the bagger dumps on it at a very high energy cost. Not that the set up is useless, only that it's glorification is stupid.

  It makes sense to recover that energy to reduce overall costs and energy usage. Using a battery truck that recovers 40kwh on a loaded trip and uses 30kwh on an unloaded trip is essentially generating 10kwh every trip. Using a Diesel engine it would use fuel both ways and not recover anything.  
Hunter valley coal trains are looking at the same thing. Down the valley loaded using an electric generator to brake the train collecting energy instead of chucking it away in heat etc, then using the collected energy to run the empty train back to the mine instead of diesel.
its. 
if you can reduce energy consumption, you save a lot of money. Everyone wants on to that bandwagon.

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## Whitey66

I think the secret lies in converting wasted heat into electricity efficiently. Imagine if you could convert most of the lost heat (70% +) from an ICE into electricity?
This would make a very efficient hybrid car.
There is work going on with photovoltaic cells, which work great with industrial furnace exhausts and other extreme heat conditions, but the efficiency at the lower temps eg, ICE engines would be minimal.
Thermo-electric generators are not very efficient at the moment (around 20%) but could be with more research and material testing.

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## John2b

What about a diesel-steam-electric train? Use the waste heat from the ICE to boil water to run a steam turbine to generate electricity. The potential exists to reduce fuel consumption by as much as 50%, possibly more. The downside is the need to carry water.

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## Whitey66

> What about a diesel-steam-electric train? Use the waste heat from the ICE to boil water to run a steam turbine to generate electricity. The potential exists to reduce fuel consumption by as much as 50%, possibly more. The downside is the need to carry water.

   I don't think that water to steam would be very efficient on an ICE, there's got to be a better way that nobody has thought of yet.

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## John2b

> I don't think that water to steam would be very efficient on an ICE, there's got to be a better way that nobody has thought of yet.

   The most advanced power stations in the world, the ones people like to keep promoting as the way to save the planet, thermal nuclear power plants, use steam to spin a turbine connected to a generator, as do coal, oil and gas fired electricity generators. In a diesel engine more than ⅓ of the energy in the diesel fuel ends up heating the water in the radiator - that's more than comes out of the engine as mechanical energy. And another ⅓ of the diesel fuel's energy goes out the exhaust pipe mostly as heat as well. I can't believe there isn't a way to capture that heat to boil water. Whether it is economic or not depends on the price of diesel.

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## UseByDate

> The most advanced power stations in the world, the ones people like to keep promoting as the way to save the planet, thermal nuclear power plants, use steam to spin a turbine connected to a generator, as do coal, oil and gas fired electricity generators. In a diesel engine more than ⅓ of the energy in the diesel fuel ends up heating the water in the radiator - that's more than comes out of the engine as mechanical energy. And another ⅓ of the diesel fuel's energy goes out the exhaust pipe mostly as heat as well. I can't believe there isn't a way to capture that heat to boil water. Whether it is economic or not depends on the price of diesel.

  Combined cycle is a bit better.
62% is better that 33%. https://www.ge.com/power/about/insights/articles/2016/04/power-plant-efficiency-record  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant 
"That is, from an overall efficiency of say 34% (simple cycle), to  possibly an overall efficiency of 62% (combined cycle), 84% Theoretical  efficiency (Carnot cycle) "

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## John2b

> I don't think that water to steam would be very efficient on an ICE, there's got to be a better way that nobody has thought of yet.

   MAN is actually already making cogeneration diesel / steam generators. The diesel engine runs a generator and the exhaust gas from the engine which normally goes to waste is used to make steam which runs a steam turbine driving another generator. The outputs of the two generators are combined electrically. I guess these engines will end up in trains as well.  https://powerplants.man-es.com/solutions/combined-cycle

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## Whitey66

> MAN is actually already making cogeneration diesel / steam generators. The diesel engine runs a generator and the exhaust gas from the engine which normally goes to waste is used to make steam which runs a steam turbine driving another generator. The outputs of the two generators are combined electrically. I guess these engines will end up in trains as well.  https://powerplants.man-es.com/solutions/combined-cycle

  Sorry, I was talking about an ICE car as that's what this topic was originally about. I can't see steam working in that situation but maybe something will be invented in the future, something that relies on a difference of temperature rather than something that requires more than 100 degrees Celsius to produce steam.

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## Marc

> The most advanced power stations in the world, the ones people like to keep promoting as the way to save the planet, thermal nuclear power plants, use steam to spin a turbine connected to a generator, as do coal, oil and gas fired electricity generators. In a diesel engine more than ⅓ of the energy in the diesel fuel ends up heating the water in the radiator - that's more than comes out of the engine as mechanical energy. And another ⅓ of the diesel fuel's energy goes out the exhaust pipe mostly as heat as well. I can't believe there isn't a way to capture that heat to boil water. Whether it is economic or not depends on the price of diesel.

  Oh yes, there is. I have hot showers on the boat with it  :Smilie: 
No hot shower with an electric motor  :Frown:

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## METRIX



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## METRIX

Her's one for you Marc

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## Marc

1.7 million pounds, speed 200 miles/hr and range 250 miles.
What a joke!
overpriced by 500%, useless speed, and useless range. Sorry Metrix, not for me.  :Smilie: 
Looks good though. Would look great with a cheetah leashed on the front seat.

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## John2b

> No hot shower with an electric motor

  Even though an ICE engine wastes around 10 times as much energy as its electric motor equivalent, the ICE engine's waste heat is spread between noise, exhaust gas energy and coolant heat, so much of the energy wasted can't realistically be used. A marine electric motor with typical >90% efficiency will produce enough "waste" energy to heat several hundred litres of hot water per day while underway - that's still enough for a showers for a typical basketball team.

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## UseByDate

> Even though an ICE engine wastes around 10 times as much energy as its electric motor equivalent, the ICE engine's waste heat is spread between noise, exhaust gas energy and coolant heat, so much of the energy wasted can't realistically be used. A marine electric motor with typical >90% efficiency will produce enough "waste" energy to heat several hundred litres of hot water per day while underway - that's still enough for a showers for a typical basketball team.

  Yea, but you can't cook breakfast on an electric motor. :Wink:  
 You can on an ECE (external combustion engine). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr_nirCbcmE

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## Bedford

Electric Excavator.  https://www.facebook.com/nomis1973/v...0022343285922/

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## METRIX

> 1.7 million pounds, speed 200 miles/hr and range 250 miles.
> What a joke!
> overpriced by 500%, useless speed, and useless range. Sorry Metrix, not for me. 
> Looks good though. Would look great with a cheetah leashed on the front seat.

  It's quite good value, as something like a Bugatti Chiron cost £3M for the scumbag model and if you have some serious money you canspend £16M for the La Voiture Noire, these can only achieve 260Miles to 312M per tank, if you drive it very very carefully it has a 26.5Gallon tank, touch that right pedal just a bit too hard and forget about fuel consumption.

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## John2b

Q: What do Cummins, Tiger and Caterpillar USA, Hitachi, IHI and Komatsu Japan, Epiroc / Atlas Copco, Sandvik and Volvo Sweden, Mecalec France, Kobelco and POM Holland, Hyundai and Doosan (Bobcat) Sth Korea, JCB UK, Liebherr, Wacker and Sennebogen Germany, Venieri Italy and Mattro Austria all have in common? A: They all make 100% electric diggers and excavators. 
Q: Why? A: Versatility, higher energy efficiency, superior tractive ability, overload capacity, minimal maintenance and reduced total cost of ownership compared to diesel engine equivalents. They also produce no toxic gases allowing them to work indoor, in underground mines and in confined spaces and they have much lower lower noise levels reducing disturbance and complaints in urban environments. 
This Sandvik electric loader has a 25 tonne bucket capacity.

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## Bros

> Q: What do Cummins, Tiger and Caterpillar USA, Hitachi, IHI and Komatsu Japan, Epiroc / Atlas Copco, Sandvik and Volvo Sweden, Mecalec France, Kobelco and POM Holland, Hyundai and Doosan (Bobcat) Sth Korea, JCB UK, Liebherr, Wacker and Sennebogen Germany, Venieri Italy and Mattro Austria all have in common? A: They all make 100% electric diggers and excavators. 
> Q: Why? A: Versatility, higher energy efficiency, superior tractive ability, overload capacity, minimal maintenance and reduced total cost of ownership compared to diesel engine equivalents. They also produce no toxic gases allowing them to work indoor, in underground mines and in confined spaces and they have much lower lower noise levels reducing disturbance and complaints in urban environments. 
> This Sandvik electric loader has a 25 tonne bucket capacity.

   You forgot Bucycue Erie and they just shift the emissions elsewhere. Mines have been using electric machines for over 50 yrs.

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## Marc

Electric machinery in mines is old hat, and they work very well.
The difference is that the mines don't pretend to save the planet with them. They run the batteries with diesel so in fact they pollute much more than if they used diesel inside the mine. The reason they use it because diesel inside the mine is not possible.  
Today's electric vehicle have a different purpose. This is posturing and virtue signaling. The electric mining equipment have a practical purpose. Electric cars are toys for pretend grown up that say "I am better than you because I am oh so clean and pure" 
Reminds me of the carmelites in a convent.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Today's electric vehicle have a different purpose. This is posturing and virtue signaling. The electric mining equipment have a practical purpose. Electric cars are toys for pretend grown up that say "I am better than you because I am oh so clean and pure"

  EVs have the same purpose as conventional vehicles (ICEVs if you like an acronym)... personal transportation. 
That you think the car you choose to drive signals something about someone's character (or the lack of it) or reflects poorly upon your own character is more a reflection on you rather than the car itself... 
EVs at the moment are primarily about marketing and the never ending drive for economic growth but they are the inevitable future.  
Sadly they mean the absolute death of the manual gearbox and I should hate them for that...but I don't care. After all, I haven't bought a car since 2002...

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## John2b

> they just shift the emissions elsewhere.

  Not exactly. The emissions when using Australia's typical grid electricity to charge an electric car equates to the emissions of a diesel or petrol car that gets about 40km/lt - about 1/5 Australia's fleet average emissions. Even when the electricity source is a diesel genset or a coal fired power station the increased energy efficiency of electric motors compared to internal combustion engines means reduced overall emissions.  
Petrol has the equivalent of 9kWh of energy per litre. Our Nissan Leaf gets around 7.8km/kWh, which is equivalent to ~70km/lt in a petrol/diesel car. If charged with a domestic petrol generator (we are off grid), the car still returns better than 15km per 1 litre of fuel into the generator, even though the generator only converts ~20% of the energy in the petrol to energy in electricity. 
Variable load / variable speed internal combustion engines in vehicles never average anywhere close to the theoretical ICE efficiency of ~30%, although a ICE driving a genset can get very close. And even when an electric car is charged from a typical (not high efficiency) coal fired power station the emissions are still less than the emissions from an ICE powered vehicle that gets 30km/lt.   

> Mines have been using electric machines for over 50 yrs.

  Which just shows that where an electric motor has a tangible advantage over its ICE equivalent it makes sense to use it.

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## Bros

> Sadly they mean the absolute death of the manual gearbox and I should hate them for that...but I don't care. After all, I haven't bought a car since 2002...

   Manual gearboxes have been dying for some time as in most vehicles now you have to wait for a manual that’s if it is an option. I heard on the radio two yrs ago that manual cars are only 17% of sales.

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## John2b

https://youtu.be/Nn__9hLJKAk

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## Marc

Unfortunately not so for Landcruiser 75 series. Manual is 100%  :Frown:  
But let me talk about emissions. I actually dislike that obfuscating word much more than manual gearboxes that I drove exclusively for 30 years and given up on. 
The dictionary calls it "The production and discharge of something" ... to me it is synonim to going to the toilet.  
The word, hijacked and distorted by greens, lefty media and opportunistic politicians (meaning all of them) has made it exclusively about CO2 and it's alleged effect on climate. 
WE MUST REDUCE _EMISSIONS !  _ is the catchcry repeated at nauseam by the usual suspects and parroted by the ignorant masses.   
Yet if you repeat the experiment i did, and ask people at random what are emissions, you will get a bag full of assorted and disconnected replies. 
Most folks don't know what they are, others will not be able to distinguish between carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide or carbon, and associate it with the steam coming out of the cooling towers, as seen on TV. 
. Will volunteer however that coal is "dirty", most likely an association with it's black colour and the intuitive concept that it will stain your hand if touched. Particulate emissions will get you even more aloof replies, yet if you venture that CO2 is essential for life on earth or ... God forbid ... that _we_ are carbon based organism, you will get relegated to the weirdo category. 
Does it really matter?  
Yes and no ... I have long given up on other people's profound ignorance and observe it as part of the fauna and flora of the landscape, but as a strategy of obfuscation it is admirable. Add to it the other term "carbon" and even worse, "carbon footprint" meaning something completely different, you have the full picture. The textbook on how to keep the masses ignorant for as long as possible with the complicity of media and the usual cheerleaders. 
The massive fraud about "global warming" due to man made CO2 is the biggest con ever invented after religion, and its purpose, stealing taxpayers money and redirect it to otherwise useless and non viable industries is becoming more and more obvious, even to the uninformed and the disinterested, through their electricity and fuel bill. 
Humanity will eventually wake up from it's slumber and shake off the parasites of the climate change industry. Let's hope we don't get too much further into this massive collective delusion that only benefits the usual few.

----------


## METRIX

> Manual gearboxes have been dying for some time as in most vehicles now you have to wait for a manual thats if it is an option. I heard on the radio two yrs ago that manual cars are only 17% of sales.

  Yep agree, I have 1 Manual ute 4WD Ranger and 1 Auto ute 2WD Hilux, both 6 speed when I bought the Ranger manual was available in whatever colour / cab style I wanted, I did not want the Auto as these were notorious for being a crappy Auto. 
Now, I hardly see any Manual versions on the road, as much as I like driving the Manual, around the city it would be a PITA. 
If I go from my place to the city to do a Job (just over 20k) and some clown causes a problem on the eastern distributor which causes start / stop traffic getting over Harbour bridge I recon I would have to use the clutch for first gear takeoffs at least 100 times for the 5 kilometre part of the journey where the problem is usually caused. 
I will be trading the Ranger in sometime soon and am currently looking at the Ranger Raptor, these only come with 10 speed Auto and this Auto has had only good things to say about it, sign of the times I guess. 
I was reading an article and in the US, they say is you don't want your car getting hijacked or stolen drive a Manual because the crooks only know how to drive Auto's  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin: .
In the US Manauls only account for 2% of sales in 2018, In Europe 80% of cars are Manual,

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## Bros

> If I go from my place to the city to do a Job (just over 20k) and some clown causes a problem on the eastern distributor which causes start / stop traffic getting over Harbour bridge I recon I would have to use the clutch for first gear takeoffs at least 100 times for the 5 kilometre part of the journey where the problem is usually caused. 
> I was reading an article and in the US, they say is you don't want your car getting hijacked or stolen drive a Manual because the crooks only know how to drive Auto's .
> ,

   Auto’s in city driving would not be without their problems. I tow a 2.5T caravan and I am conscious of auto fluid temp to the extent I have added an extra cooler and I go in lockup mode when I can by semi manual operation. When I occasionally go to the city without the van I notice a considerable rise in temp due to constant torque converter slipping. 
As for only auto drivers I have been told a lot of the new cops can only drive auto’s.

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## johnc

We have always had at least one manual and finally a couple of years ago gave up and went auto, for no other reason than each car we looked at in the type we were looking for came as auto only. Both have the option of pretend manual of course slip the stick and choose when you want to change but unless you are towing in stop start traffic I wonder why you would bother.

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## METRIX

Here Marc, the C8 Corvette, will come from the factory right hand drive and we will finally be getting it, looks nice.

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## JB1

> Here Marc, the C8 Corvette, will come from the factory right hand drive and we will finally be getting it, looks nice.

  I've never been interested in American cars but the C8 Corvette is a stunner and most importantly handles as well as the best from Europe.   
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

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## PhilT2

Some parts of Colorado have 55 days a year when air quality is so poor that authorities warn against exercising outdoors. Ozone levels from vehicle emissions and oil drilling regularly exceed 75 ppb which is above safe limits. 
At the same time the world is trying to preserve the ozone layer in the upper atmosphere. Funny how a trace gas can be both beneficial and harmful depending on where it is and how much there is, even though it is measured in parts per billion. A bit like that other trace gas, although that one is measured in parts per million. 
The US federal govt is threatening Colorado with penalties if it does not bring its air quality up to federal standards while the Trump administration is relaxing vehicle emission and oil drilling pollution standards.  https://www.thedenverchannel.com/new...os-air-quality

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## Marc

Corvette, very nice.  Not electric though ... what happened there?  
PhilT2, Trump is the beast. Try some exorcism exercises, or voodoo perhaps? 
And now you will have the UK version to contend with ... oh my! 
By the way, thank you for posting a great example of obscurantism and obfuscation. 
No one argues against real pollution in the form of toxic gases or particulate pollution, I argue against the political and financial fraud perpetrated against taxpayers with the demonisation of CO2.
CO2 can be doubled or tripled or quadrupled with no ill effect on humans or the environment. Increasing the values of real pollutants is clearly a problem. To make a parallel between pollution and CO2 is what the fraud is all about, just like media showing steam from cooling towers and calling it pollution from the bad coal fired generators.  
But of course it comes as no surprise. Do carry on, it is all good fun.

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## phild01

*New Navara Electric Ute*    The Nissan Dongfeng collaboration has an uninspiringly low payload of 490kg, along with a claimed top speed of 110km/h and more importantly a claimed range of 403km. It also says that it can go from empty to 80% charge in less time than it takes to drive from Sydney to the Blue Mountains, 45 minutes.  https://mr4x4.com.au/new-navara-elec...1+%28Weekly%29

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## METRIX

> *New Navara Electric Ute*    The Nissan Dongfeng collaboration has an uninspiringly low payload of 490kg, along with a claimed top speed of 110km/h and more importantly a claimed range of 403km. It also says that it can go from empty to 80% charge in less time than it takes to drive from Sydney to the Blue Mountains, 45 minutes.  https://mr4x4.com.au/new-navara-elec...1+%28Weekly%29

  
Looks very Toyota like, payload too little because it's built from a ICE version of the Ute, Electric Ute needs to be designed from ground up not converted there will always be sacrifice when this is done.

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## Marc

> *New Navara Electric Ute*    The Nissan Dongfeng collaboration has an uninspiringly low payload of 490kg, along with a claimed top speed of 110km/h and more importantly a claimed range of 403km. It also says that it can go from empty to 80% charge in less time than it takes to drive from Sydney to the Blue Mountains, 45 minutes.  https://mr4x4.com.au/new-navara-elec...1+%28Weekly%29

  Hum ... uninspiring low payload (never heard of uninspiringly low) ... my old Apache 10 pickup truck had a carrying capacity of 500 kg and a 235 CI engine. Suspension was soft with rear springs. A real dog.   That one can not be worse than the old Apache, here is one like ours. Mine was yellow  :Smilie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEW7mupEVc8

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## chrisp

I can picture in my mind that this is more what Marc is in to... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg140WolsZk

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## UseByDate

> Regarding electric vehicles, the motors are typically 3-phase induction motors - no brushes, no slip rings, and only bearing to wear out. They are pretty simple and very durable - like most 3-phase motors commonly used in industry.

    Tesla are switching to permanent magnet rotor on the Tesla 3. Claimed to be more efficient than an induction motor (presumably lower rotor losses) and also cheaper to manufacture. I don't know why it would be cheaper to manufacture. Using permanent magnets seems to be an over complication, but they must know what they are doing. https://electrek.co/2018/02/27/tesla...-magnet-motor/

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## UseByDate

https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...e4479a76d213d6

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## Marc

Ha ha, that is a cool bike. 150 miles/h in first gear. A truly temporary American.  
Not for me, I like this sort of trucks much better   https://www.legacyclassictrucks.com/...-image-enlarge

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## fredgassit

Wanna find out what cars are really like  -  visit Scotty Kilmer on YouTube.

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## Whitey66

> Wanna find out what cars are really like  -  visit Scotty Kilmer on YouTube.

  That guy is a fool, and half the stuff he says is rubbish.

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## Bros

> That guy is a fool, and half the stuff he says is rubbish.

   I have never listened to him but I have listened to some of Cadogan Utube and if you have an open mind you can get some interesting bits of information.

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## UseByDate

One million mile battery? 
 Tesla's goal is to design a battery pack to last one million miles. I don't know, but I assume this would apply to the battery in the Tesla truck. That is, a battery being used almost continuously at optimum temperature and the use of ultracapacitors  to reduce the number of charge-discharge cycles. Tesla does guarantee their truck's drive train for one million miles so this next stage may include the battery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMOFuEH0BZI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE_PZQ13YTY

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## METRIX

I think the introduction of Ultra capacitors and super capacitors is the next step, these would most likely take any regen and store it quickly in a larger amount, then could be used to dump it back to the main battery at a controlled and sustained rate rather than the current way which keeps feeding power in at each regen opportunity, surely this has to have some detrimental effects on the battery by feeding small amounts at each breaking opportunity. 
And would explain why Tesla bought Maxwell for the paltry sum of $218 Million, they are know as the leader in Ultra / Super Capacitors, compare this to what Facebook paid for a shyster app being Whatsapp $19 Billion !!!

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## Marc

May be the next source of energy will be thunderbolts stored in capacitors? 
It was a Julio Verne idea.

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## fredgassit

Scotty's no fool -- just about everything he says has been my experience.too, especially about German cars. 
BTW, he has a Phd in geology.

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## Whitey66

> May be the next source of energy will be thunderbolts stored in capacitors? 
> It was a Julio Verne idea.

  It might have been a Jules Verne idea, but Doc Emmett Brown perfected it with the Flux Capacitor in a DeLorean time machine  :2thumbsup: .

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## UseByDate

> It might have been a Jules Verne idea, but Doc Emmett Brown perfected it with the Flux Capacitor in a DeLorean time machine .

  How do you know that Doc Emmett Brown did not use the time machine to go back and tell Jules Verne? :Rolleyes:

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## John2b

> How do you know that Doc Emmett Brown did not use the time machine to go back and tell Jules Verne?

   How do you know that Jules Verne did not go forward in time disguised as Doc Emmett Brown? :Rolleyes:

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## DavoSyd



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## Marc

Harvesting energy from lightning is on the same league as an anti gravitation machine. Only those who are able to dream like J Verne will eventually make it work. The others are like the other seagulls in Jonathan Livingston Seagull

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## Marc

And whilst you save the money to buy that electric car that will be oh so good for the planet, spare a thought for the few hundred poor billionaires who arrived in Sicily on board of 120 private jet and a flotilla of multi million dollar yacht and zipped around the island on a pack of Maserati, all to attend a secret meeting called every year by Google, called the Google camp.
Many speakers took turns to talk about how we, the little people, should make a bigger effort to save the environment from this dreadful scourge that is CO2.   
Just like when the church reigned supreme and the priest had higher social status, and were exempt from the rules that regulate behaviour, clearly only aimed at the masses. 
Whoever can not see the scam behind the global warming preaching, needs help fast.   https://youtu.be/dVjXwS8HzFw?t=7

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## Whitey66

> https://youtu.be/dVjXwS8HzFw?t=7

  2-stroke diesels should have been banned years ago, noisy particulate pluming pieces of crap!! But they do sound cool  :2thumbsup:

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## Bros

> But they do sound cool

   Have to agree nothing like the sound of a GM diesel.

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## PhilT2

If you want to make noise, a GM is best. If you want to make money get something else.

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## John2b

> And whilst you save the money to buy that electric car that will be oh so good for the planet...

  We just bought 'that electric car' to save money. The last three months has cost a grand total of $3.90 in "fuel"*. And no, not a single government concession or subsidy has applied to anything about our ownership or usage of our electric car. The fact that our electric car is a fantastic vehicle to drive is just a bonus. 
*we're off grid so charging the car costs nothing extra.

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## Marc

Ha ha guys, so predictable. 
All the comments around the detroit diesel motor I like the best, only because they were so reliable in the landing crafts, posted just for fun and completely unrelated to the core of my post. The 100 or so billionaires who descended on Sicily in their yacht and private jets to tell us, the tax paying public how to live our lives.  
It is our collective blindness to this small minority of rulers, blind in the delusion of democracy and fairness, that allows the present status quo of so many brainwashed into believing they are actually "doing something for the planet". 
We are so blind that we even forget the most crass prediction that failed miserably and are even repeated as facts today, like the multiple meters of sea rise, or the catastrophic temperature rises, and so many more. 
We live in interesting times. 
And the jewfish ... sorry Mulloway ... are still baiting. 
John, good for you if your electric car not only takes you places in a timely and reliable manner but even saves you money. 
I wish I had a car I don't need to pump in $60 or $80 every week. Unfortunately, the way I use my car, long drives and towing, prevents me from having an electric car. May be not long to go? I will wait and see. 
For the boat it may be a longer wait. The Kubota motor is a gem for that. Not quite like an MTU but good enough.  :Smilie:

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## Whitey66

> We just bought 'that electric car' to save money. The last three months has cost a grand total of $3.90 in "fuel"*. And no, not a single government concession or subsidy has applied to anything about our ownership or usage of our electric car. The fact that our electric car is a fantastic vehicle to drive is just a bonus. 
> *we're off grid so charging the car costs nothing extra.

  How many KMs have you done in those 3 months and what is your normal usage and KMs per week?

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## John2b

> How many KMs have you done in those 3 months and what is your normal usage and KMs per week?

   About 3,300 km. That makes it about 250km per week. Petrol here is $1.80lt, so it's probably saved about $600 in fuel over 3 months.

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## chrisp

For some reason, this letter in The Age reminded me of this thread.  :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> For some reason, this letter in The Age reminded me of this thread.

  More BS, two different animals , big difference between "getting your money back" and "paying something off".   :Rolleyes:

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## Whitey66

> More BS, two different animals , big difference between "getting your money back" and "paying something off".

  Spot on. Solar panels have one use, SUVs have many uses. While the SUV can't pay for itself (unless it's an Uber), you can't put your family on a solar panel and go on holidays or drive them to work either (to earn money to pay for it.)
Really dumb analogy.

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## Whitey66

> About 3,300 km. That makes it about 250km per week. Petrol here is $1.80lt, so it's probably saved about $600 in fuel over 3 months.

   What about the usage? Is it driven to work during the day? If so, do you use batteries to charge it at night? What happens when you get a cloudy week?

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## chrisp

Oh the irony! Doers and detractors!  
The ‘doer’ (John2b) is saving heaps using his car that is practically costing him nothing to run, while the ‘detractors’ point out how impractical it is!   :Smilie:

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## Whitey66

> Oh the irony! Doers and detractors!  
> The ‘doer’ (John2b) is saving heaps using his car that is practically costing him nothing to run, while the ‘detractors’ point out how impractical it is!

  I'm not a detractor (if you're pointing at me), i'm just interested in how having an electric car that costs next to nothing to run when you're off grid plays out in real life situations.
I'm all for saving money on cars, and would do it myself if it was suitable for me. My questions are based on why I don't think it would suit me, and asking someone who's doing it at the moment seems the best source of information.

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## DavoSyd

> Really dumb analogy.

  sure, but the "punchline" of the letter to the Age editor was actually this:   

> Now he is putting in rooftop solar power and hot water. With five kids, that will save him a bucket of money and help to pay off his SUV.

  so while the SUV can't pay for itself, the writer was suggesting that the solar systems could help pay it off instead...

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## Bedford

> so while the SUV can't pay for itself, the writer was suggesting that the solar systems could help pay it off instead...

  So the writer assumed it wasn't paid off in the first place?  :Rolleyes:

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## johnc

> So the writer assumed it wasn't paid off in the first place?

   Probably not clear, there is nothing to indicate that the SUV owner either owned outright, leased or had a loan on the vehicle. There is also nothing to indicate that the writer had received or not received any information from the SUV owner. However we do seem to be getting a bit excited about nothing here.

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## DavoSyd

> So the writer assumed it wasn't paid off in the first place?

  the writer has spent their time and energy writing letters to newspapers, it certainly raises questions about their general well being...

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## woodbe

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...cerns/11384196 
Australia is paying out for most fuel out of Australia. 
It takes time, but with improving the continued power from the sun and wind etc, it saves cost for Australia over time. Even if it cost the same, it would keep the $$ into Australia.  
Anyone interested can replace a fuel car for an electric car, and have some solar panels on the roof reduce the cost of running the electric cars. Better for electric cars around the town, but some with larger batteries can go way longer distances.  
Have a look at https://www.aeva.asn.au/ they have places for each state and lots of information about electric cars etc.

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## phild01

> Have a look at https://www.aeva.asn.au/ they have places for each state and lots of information about electric cars etc.

  Can I get this right, to travel long distances it takes an hour's charging to only go 100-150kms before needing another charge.  And if someone gets in before me then I have a 2 hour wait or if others are waiting then that wait becomes a very onerous wait.  Charging locations were scarce just two years ago!The humble 32 amp, three-phase industrial socket forms the backbone of the remote legs, and is the "bush standard" for charging.  Offering up to 22 kW of power (if your vehicle's onboard charger is big enough) these will add over 100 km of range per hour of charging for a Tesla Model S, and up to 150 km per hour in a Renault Zoe!  Other EVs will struggle with the gaps between chargers https://www.aeva.asn.au/Electric%20Highway

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## SilentButDeadly

> Can I get this right, to travel long distances it takes an hour's charging to only go 100-150kms before needing another charge.  And if someone gets in before me then I have a 2 hour wait or if others are waiting then that wait becomes a very onerous wait.  Charging locations were scarce just two years ago!The humble 32 amp, three-phase industrial socket forms the backbone of the remote legs, and is the "bush standard" for charging.  Offering up to 22 kW of power (if your vehicle's onboard charger is big enough) these will add over 100 km of range per hour of charging for a Tesla Model S, and up to 150 km per hour in a Renault Zoe!  Other EVs will struggle with the gaps between chargers https://www.aeva.asn.au/Electric%20Highway

  Those figures are ancient. The biggest chargers these days do something like 350 kW and could do an 80% fast charge in less than 20 minutes on a properly equipped vehicle. But the more common units are around 220 kW and that's good for a fast charge in around 45 minutes. The NRMA found it takes about 2 charges to get from Sydney to Melbourne and it adds 1.5 hours to the journey (but then you'd stop, revive and survive for longer than that anyway...or at least you should)

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## phild01

John bought an import from Japan, would these charge that fast.

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## DavoSyd

> John bought an import from Japan, would these charge that fast.

  depends on the year model...

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## Marc

> For some reason, this letter in The Age reminded me of this thread.   ​

  You are correct.
The same misinformation, appeal to emotions and lack of detail. 
The author is happy to have converted his neighbour to his religion and for that they will both chant songs to the sun in green heaven.  
Meantime in reality check, solar panels may or may not make money depending on size of the system, orientation, location and how much the supplier is willing to give back, and how long till they move the goal post ... again.
A car is a liability, costs money all the time, and will pay for the investment only if it is used for work and even then it will still be a liability, even when a necessary one.  
Of course the underlying 'message' is that a car is evil, particularly a "Ford SUV". And solar panels are virtuous and morally superior, and now the neighbour has seen the light ! Alleluyaaaa ....  :Rofl5:

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## Whitey66

> You are correct.
> The same misinformation, appeal to emotions and lack of detail.

   :Lolabove:  :Roflmao:

----------


## woodbe

phild01, the distance and the size and the fast charging depends on the info in the battery and the charging.  
If you need long distance, it would be better with more battery with fast charging.  
If you dont need long distance, then you could decide to have a smaller car with smaller battery. That would reduce the weight of the battery and run more efficiently.  
We drive ours around the city and only need charging every couple of days. We charging it at home and we have more solar than we use including the car.  
If we go on way longer trips we use a normal car, but over time we will probably replace a petrol car with an electric vehicle with longer distance.

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## John2b

> I... i'm just interested in how having an electric car that costs next to nothing to run when you're off grid plays out in real life situations.

   The short answer: Like the vast majority of Australian households we have more than one vehicle; our second car is a diesel 4WD. When it's more practical to use the diesel, whether that's for carrying capacity, terrain, range or the electric car is empty, we use the diesel. Simple, really. 
The long answer: A properly designed off-grid system has enough capacity to get through the worst few days of the year. That means for nearly all of the time there is electricity to spare, i.e. panel generating capacity that isn't being used. 
 Cloudy days in winter do not mean no solar electricity, they mean about 20% of a sunny winter day. Only a few very dark overcast days per year produce less. The house system had 4.6kW of panels on the NNE face of a gable roof, optimally angled for winter sun to charge the house batteries from early morning and combined with 40kWh of battery storage and a 5/12kW inverter. The house has the mod cons like an other house (except conditioning - passive cooling used). This has proved to be more than enough electricity throughout the entire 12 months of the year without needing to resort to a backup generator. 
Just like a rainwater tank isn't drained to empty before it is filled again but topped up with every shower, so the house battery is topped up when there is light. The house batteries are never normally "emptied" - same with the electric car. 
The maximum range of any car, electric or liquid fuel, is infrequently used, i.e. the battery or tank is rarely emptied in one trip. Recharging an electric car is normally just daily topping up. The car is charged when parked at home, which quite frankly is less inconvenient that having to detour to a fuelling station while driving. 
From September to May there's typically more than enough solar electricity for running the car and house, but not on cloudy days for June to August. As it happens when overcast the light is diffuse and solar panels work equally well regardless of which way they are faced. Another 4.6kW of panels was installed on the SSW facing roof using secondhand Sharp brand panels from old solar systems being replaced. Doubling the cloudy winter day output cost very little because the 10+ year old Sharp panels used still produce 100% of rated output and cost ~$40 each. As a bonus the panels facing the "wrong" way also shade the roof from the late afternoon summer sun, helping the no cost passive cooling of the house.

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## Marc

> ...our second car is a diesel 4wd. When it's more practical to use the diesel, whether that's for carrying capacity, terrain, range or the electric car is empty, we use the diesel. Simple, really....

  heretic!!!  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> heretic!!!

  ???  

> Owning an electric vehicle does not mean you have to forego all ICE vehicles. We still have a diesel 4WD for what the electric car doesn't do like pulling out trees (two wheel drive isn't much chop for that) and getting down the 4WD cliff track to the coast, but the 4WD only gets 1/10 the use these days. As far as towing, electric vehicles are superior having 100% of rated power and 100% of rated torque available at all times from standstill to flat out, irrespective of road speed or revs, and you are never in the wrong gear because there aren't any. 
> And we went off-grid to save money, not the planet. Buying an electric car was inspired by pondering what to do with our 'spare' electricity on sunny days, as we can't export back to the gird. The extra panels which face southwest are to give us enough spare capacity for cloudy winter days when the direction the panels face makes next to no difference, and to insulate the roof from the afternoon sun on those stinking hot summer days.

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## Spottiswoode

> You are correct.
> The same misinformation, appeal to emotions and lack of detail. 
> The author is happy to have converted his neighbour to his religion and for that they will both chant songs to the sun in green heaven.

   Oh come off it. We are all free to spend our money as we wish. Some people spend money to save/make money. Some people spend money for toys. Some people go for toys first, then later realise they should have been saving money. Why buy a fancy new car that will only ever cost money then try madly to save money later. Why not buy solar panels and reduce your costs so you can buy more toys.

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## METRIX

> Oh come off it. We are all free to spend our money as we wish. Some people spend money to save/make money. Some people spend money for toys. Some people go for toys first, then later realise they should have been saving money. Why buy a fancy new car that will only ever cost money then try madly to save money later. Why not buy solar panels and reduce your costs so you can buy more toys.

  Agree. 
At the end of the day why do people work, not because they love it, yes you can enjoy what you are doing, but given the choice I think 90% of us would not work if it wasn't for one reason, so you can earn money to spend it on whatever you want, be it toys, cars, houses or whatever they want, even waste it on frivolous things if that's what you want to do. 
It's nobody business to tell you what you can and can;t do with your money, as it's not theirs, they are free to spend their money on whatever they want.

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## METRIX



----------


## John2b

Hayley Davidson goes electric:  https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/e.../electric.html

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## Bros

I don’t often post by the cut and paste method as I thing it is lazy but this came my way and the author is unknown to me so I am forced to post the block of text. You can pick the eyes out of what you believe or not but if you think of some of the predictions that are now fact.  

> .          
> Food for thought, well worth taking the time to read.*No computer will replace puppies* ��*.*  *Very Interesting Prediction*  *Auto repair shops will go away.*  *A gasoline engine has 20,000 individual parts. An electrical motor has 20. Electric cars are sold with lifetime guarantees and are only repaired by dealers.*  *It takes only 10 minutes to remove and replace an electric motor.*  *Faulty electric motors are not repaired in the dealership but are sent to a regional repair shop that repairs them with robots.*  *Your electric motor malfunction light goes on, so you drive up to what looks like a Jiffy-auto wash, and your car is towed through while you have a cup of coffee and out comes your car with a new electric motor!*  *Gas stations will go away. Parking meters will be replaced by meters that dispense electricity. *  *Companies will install electrical recharging stations; in fact, they’ve already started. You can find them at select Dunkin Donuts locations.*  *Most (the smart) major auto manufacturers have already designated money to start building new plants that only build electric cars.*  *Coal industries will go away. Gasoline/oil companies will go away.  Drilling for oil will stop So say goodbye to OPEC!*  *Homes will produce and store more electrical energy during the day and then they use and will sell it back to the grid.*  *The grid stores it and dispenses it to industries that are high electricity users. Has anybody seen the Tesla roof?*  *A baby of today will only see personal cars in museums.*  *The FUTURE is approaching faster than most of us can handle.*  *In 1998, Kodak had 170,000 employees and sold 85% of all photo paper worldwide. Within just a few years, their business model disappeared and they went bankrupt.*  *Who would have thought of that ever happening?*  *What happened to Kodak will happen in a lot of industries in the next  5-10 years and, most people don't see it coming.*  *Did you think in 1998 that 3 years later, you would never take pictures on  film again? With today’s smart phones, who even has a camera these days?*  *Yet digital cameras were invented in 1975. The first ones only had  10,000 pixels, but followed Moore's law. *  *So as with all exponential technologies, it was a disappointment for a time, before it became way superior and became mainstream in only a few short years.*  *It will now happen again (but much faster) with Artificial Intelligence, health, autonomous and electric cars, education, 3D printing, agriculture and jobs.*  *Forget the book, “Future Shock”, welcome to the 4th Industrial Revolution.*  *Software has disrupted and will continue to disrupt most traditional industries in the next 5-10 years.*  *UBER is just a software tool, they don't own any cars, and are now  the biggest taxi company in the world!* *Ask any taxi driver if they saw that coming.*  *Airbnb is now the biggest hotel company in the world, although they don't own any properties.* *Ask Hilton Hotels if they saw that coming.*  *Artificial Intelligence: Computers become exponentially better in understanding the world.* *This year, a computer beat the best Go-player in the world, 10 years earlier than expected.*  *In the USA, young lawyers already don't get jobs. Because of  IBM's Watson, you can get legal advice (so far for right now, the basic stuff) within seconds, with 90% accuracy compared with 70% accuracy when done by humans. So, if you study law, stop immediately.*  *There will be 90% fewer lawyers in the future, (what a thought!) only omniscient specialists will remain.*  *Watson already helps nurses diagnosing cancer, its 4 times more accurate than human nurses.*  *Facebook now has a pattern recognition software that can recognize faces better than humans. In 2030, computers will become more intelligent than humans.*  *Autonomous cars: In 2018 the first self-driving cars are already here. In the next 2 years, the entire industry will start to be disrupted.*  *You won't want to own a car anymore as you will call a car with your phone, it will show up at your location and drive you to your destination.*  *You will not need to park it you will only pay for the driven distance and you can be productive while driving.*  *The very young children of today will never get a driver's license and will never own a car.*  *This will change our cities, because we will need 90-95% fewer cars. We can transform former parking spaces into parks.*  *1.2 million people die each year in car accidents worldwide including distracted or drunk driving.*  *We now have one accident every 60,000 miles; with autonomous driving that will drop to 1 accident in 6 million miles.*  *That will save a million lives plus worldwide each year.*  *Most traditional car companies will doubtless become bankrupt. Traditional car companies will try the evolutionary approach and just build a better car,*  *while tech companies (Tesla, Apple, Google) will do the revolutionary approach and build a computer on wheels.*  *Look at what Volvo is doing right now; no more internal combustion engines in their vehicles starting this year with the 2019 models,*  *using all electric or hybrid only, with the intent of phasing out hybrid models.*  *Many engineers from Volkswagen and Audi; are completely terrified of Tesla and so they should be. Look at all the companies offering all electric vehicles.*  *That was unheard of, only a few years ago.*  *Insurance companies will have massive trouble because, without accidents, the costs will become cheaper.*  *Their car insurance business model will disappear.*  *Real estate will change. Because if you can work while you commute, people will move farther away to live in a more beautiful or affordable neighborhood.*  *Electric cars will become mainstream about 2030. Cities will be less noisy because all new cars will run on electricity.* *Cities will have much cleaner air as well. (Can we start in Los Angeles, please?)*  *Electricity will become incredibly cheap and clean.*  *Solar production has been on an exponential curve for 30 years, but you can now see the burgeoning impact.* *And it’s just getting ramped up.*  *Fossil energy companies are desperately trying to limit access to the grid to prevent competition from home solar installations,*  *but that simply cannot continue - technology will take care of that strategy.*  *Health: The Tricorder X price will be announced this year. There are companies who will build a medical device (called the "Tricorder" from Star Trek) that works with your phone, which takes your retina scan, your blood sample and you breath into it. *  *It then analyses 54 bio-markers that will identify nearly any Disease.*  *There are dozens of phone apps out there right now for health purposes.*  *WELCOME TO TOMORROW – it actually arrived a few years ago.*

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## Whitey66

Mostly believable except for the part where the writer says there are 20,000 individual parts on a gasoline engine, obviously has no idea about ICEs as there's nowhere near that many. 
I'm glad I didn't have Kodak shares in 2000.
With all of this technology saving even more lives, our biggest cause of ALL of our current problems will get worse - too many ants in the ant farm.
They don't really go into unemployment figures either which will be a huge issue.

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## PhilT2

> Mostly believable except for the part where the writer says there are 20,000 individual parts on a gasoline engine, obviously has no idea about ICEs as there's nowhere near that many.

  I think that could be true, maybe with a v12 4v. Components like clutch plate, water pump etc are not one part but many. Every nut, bolt and washer; it all adds up. 
I disagree with the part about less lawyers in the future; we'll never be rid of them.

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## PhilT2

Lady pays $150 in charging costs to drive around Aus in electric car. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...c-car/11391552

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## Bros

> I'm glad I didn't have Kodak shares in 2000.

   Something I would have never believed could happen.

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## Bros

> They don't really go into unemployment figures either which will be a huge issue.

   A case of the have and the have not's, be a bigger problem in the future than it is now and social unrest will get worse.

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## phild01

> Lady pays $150 in charging costs to drive around Aus in electric car. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...c-car/11391552

  Would seem she got most of the power donated for free!   

> most of the places we stayed were very happy for us to charge the car there

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## Whitey66

> I think that could be true, maybe with a v12 4v. Components like clutch plate, water pump etc are not one part but many. Every nut, bolt and washer; it all adds up. 
> I disagree with the part about less lawyers in the future; we'll never be rid of them.

   Well i've been pulling them apart and putting them back together for over 35 years and never seen or heard of an engine with that many parts...
Regarding the lawyers, but isn't it a nice thought?

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## PhilT2

> Would seem she got most of the power donated for free!

  Know what you mean but it was not exactly donated. Motels allow that clients will use power to charge phones, laptops etc so they extended this to her as it was probably the first electric car most had ever seen. Sounds like she wasn't short of a dollar so may not have stayed at the cheap places. Someone did work out the cost earlier, what was it, around $3? for overnight charge. So even if she paid she was still way ahead of petrol buyers. The big issue is that she didn't go far each day; and couldn't have.

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## PhilT2

> Well i've been pulling them apart and putting them back together for over 35 years and never seen or heard of an engine with that many parts..

  Stripped down my first motorbike in the '60s, it didn't have that many parts either; still managed to lose some though. But we're not talking about old Triumphs or holden red motors here, but some italian exotics would be close to the 20,000 parts I reckon. How many individual parts in a timing chain on a v12 dohc? I'll try and track down the original claim, someone must have done a count on something. It's on the internet, it must be true.

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## Whitey66

> Stripped down my first motorbike in the '60s, it didn't have that many parts either; still managed to lose some though. But we're not talking about old Triumphs or holden red motors here, but some italian exotics would be close to the 20,000 parts I reckon. How many individual parts in a timing chain on a v12 dohc? I'll try and track down the original claim, someone must have done a count on something. It's on the internet, it must be true.

   Well if you are counting individual parts that go together to make what everyone else normally calls a part eg. 1 timing chain is 1 part, an electric car motor easily has more than 20 of your so called "parts". Eg, how many parts make up 1 ball or roller bearing?
I've pulled apart a lot of late model engines too, from many manufacturers eg. Benz, BMW, Holden, Ford. Car manufacturers do their best to reduce the amount of parts in an engine due to cost.

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## phild01

> what was it, around $3? for overnight charge.

  How many kW does a decent battery vehicle use per km in real life driving? Would her car use about $65 worth of electricity for every 1000km? So in reality my rough estimate for a 20,000 trip would be $1300 of power with no hill climbing!
I don't think that generosity would last long with accommodation.

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## DavoSyd

> Well i've been pulling them apart and putting them back together for over 35 years and never seen or heard of an engine with that many parts...

  20'000 parts for an entire vehicle maybe?

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## PhilT2

> How many kW does a decent battery vehicle use per km in real life driving? Would her car use about $65 worth of electricity for every 1000km? So in reality my rough estimate for a 20,000 trip would be $1300 of power with no hill climbing!
> I don't think that generosity would last long with accommodation.

  We covered the cost of "free" charging back at #92.

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## John2b

> How many kW does a decent battery vehicle use per km in real life driving? Would her car use about $65 worth of electricity for every 1000km? So in reality my rough estimate for a 20,000 trip would be $1300 of power with no hill climbing!
> I don't think that generosity would last long with accommodation.

  Electric cars that go up also come down - hills don't make much difference to consumption as regenerative braking going down hill recovers the energy the vehicle used to go up the hill. 
She was driving a Tesla S with a 75kWh battery. At domestic tariffs full charge (~400km) would cost between $11 and $38 depending on the rate at the time. At Tesla's 5.1km/kWh spec, that's $590 to $1,960 for 20,000km, with or without hills. Commercial premises may buy electricity at cheaper rates. 
Based on charging station data the fleet average in Australia is 6km/kWh. If charging at home at off-peak rates of 0.15 that's about $25 per 1000km, at peak rates of $0.50 per kWh ~$83. 
We are getting 7.9km/kWh in our Leaf (all out of town driving) and when we buy at a charging station in SA it's $0.33/kWh, or ~$42 per 1000 km in our case. At home it's free from off-grid solar.

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## Whitey66

> 20'000 parts for an entire vehicle maybe?

   I reckon there would be 30,000 plus in a whole vehicle.

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## phild01

> We covered the cost of "free" charging back at #92.

  Not sure what you are assuming really, but the real cost of doing that trip is far more than what she stated.
So while battery vehicles can do well with a lower energy cost, the loss of government revenue will surely shift taxes elsewhere if ever these vehicles become mainstream. How will it be possible to supply fleet operators and everyone else with the power commensurate with what is currently being used, is there any estimate undertaken to show the future hectares of windfarm and solar to meet a world demand, not to mention the battery banks.

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## Whitey66

> Electric cars that go up also come down - hills don't make much difference to consumption as regenerative braking going down hill recovers the energy the vehicle used to go up the hill. 
> She was driving a Tesla S with a 75kWh battery. At domestic tariffs full charge (~400km) would cost between $11 and $38 depending on the rate at the time. That's $220 to $760 for 20,000km, with or without hills. Commercial premises may have cheaper electricity rates. 
> Based on charging station data the fleet average in Australia is 6km/kWh. If charging at home at off-peak rates of 0.15 that's about $25 per 1000km, at peak rates of $0.50 per kWh ~$83. 
> We are getting 7.9km/kWh in our Leaf (all out of town driving) and when we buy at a charging station in SA it's $0.33/kWh, or ~$42 per 1000 km in our case. At home it's free from off-grid solar.

  Your figures don't take into account for the losses from AC to DC transformation as well as the losses from charging the batteries due to the heat produced. 
You're speaking as if you are getting 100% of the power (kWh) put into your car - out of it, which just can't happen.
Lithium Ion batteries have less resistance than lead acid batteries, but you still get losses. The losses get bigger the faster you charge the batteries, and there's also cooling fans to run to keep the chargers and batteries cool.
 Do you know what your losses from charging your batteries actually are? You should be able to measure it fairly easily.

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## PhilT2

> Well if you are counting individual parts that go together to make what everyone else normally calls a part eg. 1 timing chain is 1 part, an electric car motor easily has more than 20 of your so called "parts". Eg, how many parts make up 1 ball or roller bearing?

  The number of bearings is a good way to illustrate the differences between the two motors. A petrol motor has crankshaft, big end and gudgeon, camshaft bearings and rockers, then bearings in the water pump, starter and alternator then spigot and throwout bearings plus all the bearings in the gearbox. We won't consider the diff as I think electric cars have something similar. So in the v12 quadcam how many is that? And how many in an electric motor?
I'm happy to consider individual parts of the electric motor as separate parts eg armature plus windings. 
I still reckon it's possible to get to 20000 in something exotic with needle rollers everywhere.

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## Whitey66

> Originally Posted by Whitey66   Well if you are counting individual parts that go together to make what everyone else normally calls a part eg. 1 timing chain is 1 part, an electric car motor easily has more than 20 of your so called "parts". Eg, how many parts make up 1 ball or roller bearing?    The number of bearings is a good way to illustrate the differences between the two motors. A petrol motor has crankshaft, big end and gudgeon, camshaft bearings and rockers, then bearings in the water pump, starter and alternator then spigot and throwout bearings plus all the bearings in the gearbox. We won't consider the diff as I think electric cars have something similar. So in the v12 quadcam how many is that? And how many in an electric motor?
> I'm happy to consider individual parts of the electric motor as separate parts eg armature plus windings. 
> I still reckon it's possible to get to 20000 in something exotic with needle rollers everywhere.

  A gearbox and clutch has never been a part of a gasoline engine. All these parts you mention are an "assembled" part, if you don't believe me go to spare parts and try buying them.
What next? breaking down the timing chain links into atoms and counting them because an atom is a part afterall  :Wink: 
My response was due to the writer comparing 20,000 ICE parts to 20 EV motor parts and this is both misleading and very wrong.

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## John2b

> Your figures don't take into account for the losses from AC to DC transformation as well as the losses from charging the batteries due to the heat produced.

  To the best of my knowledge the consumption in km/kWh reported by the car computer (and confirmed by the tripmeter) is measured from the kWh delivered into the vehicle, and therefore DOES take into account all of the inefficiencies of the on-board charger, battery, controller, and motor. This is no different to the fuel consumption of an ICE vehicle in km/lt including the losses of fuel pump, fan, water pump, other ancillary equipment, etc, being calculated from the volume of fuel delivered into the vehicle. 
I can read the kWh delivered by the display on the EVSE (electric vehicle service equipment) and calculate the expected range top-up by dividing the kWh delivered to the vehicle by the average consumption in km/kWh. The EVSE energy display concurs with the off-grid inverter display as well. If the on-car losses (charger, battery, controller and motor) were not included in the km/kWh consumption figure the range expected after charging would be considerably less than it actually is and I would have run out of battery on several occasions, which I haven't.  
Obviously there are inefficiencies at each energy transformation, of which there are several. The figures I have seen for the total round trip electric car efficiencies after on-board losses are typically >80%, which is 4 or 5 times better than an ICE.

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## Whitey66

> To the best of my knowledge the consumption in km/kWh reported by the car computer (and confirmed by the tripmeter) is measured from the kWh delivered into the vehicle, and therefore DOES take into account all of the inefficiencies of the on-board charger, battery, controller, and motor. This is no different to the fuel consumption of an ICE vehicle in km/lt including the losses of fuel pump, fan, water pump, other ancillary equipment, etc, being calculated from the volume of fuel delivered into the vehicle. 
> I can read the kWh delivered by the display on the EVSE (electric vehicle service equipment) and calculate the expected range top-up by dividing the kWh delivered to the vehicle by the average consumption in km/kWh. The EVSE energy display concurs with the off-grid inverter display as well. If the on-car losses (charger, battery, controller and motor) were not included in the km/kWh consumption figure the range expected after charging would be considerably less than it actually is and I would have run out of battery on several occasions, which I haven't.  
> Obviously there are inefficiencies at each energy transformation, of which there are several. The figures I have seen for the total round trip electric car efficiencies after on-board losses are typically >80%, which is 4 or 5 times better than an ICE.

  So when it's fully charged, does the stored kWh shown in the EVSE equal the total battery capacity?

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## John2b

> So when it's fully charged, does the stored kWh shown in the EVSE equal the total battery capacity?

  I have never charged the car from completely drained to fully charged, so I can't answer the question. How many people fill their ICE from completely dry to test the capacity of the tank? The fuel gauge in an ICE car doesn't explicitly read out in litres of fuel, and the "fuel" gauge in the Leaf electric car does not read out in kWh of energy. My EVSE does show the amount of energy delivered for the current charge cycle, although most EVSE do not. I can say that for the charge I put in the range goes up by kWh times by the average km/kWh (in my case 7.9), and that that is the additional range achieved in real life, i.e. for 10 kWh delivered I will get an extra 79km +/- a couple of km depending on conditions. 
There is some 'spare' capacity withheld from the car's nominal operational battery capacity to enable a 'limp home' mode when the battery is 'flat'. Obviously it would be dangerous if a car was stranded on a road with a dead flat battery. I don't know how much the reserve capacity is (3-4kWh?), but the principle is similar to the petrol tank in an ICE which still has some fuel in the tank when the gauge hits empty. 
One thing about the lithium batteries is that they do slowing lose capacity as they are used. An electric cars 'fuel' gauge continuously calibrates to reflect the reduced capacity as the battery ages, so Full is still shown on the gauge when the battery is fully charged but has reduced capacity. In a Leaf there is another separate gauge that shows battery capacity or health as 1-12 bars. Most BEV's batteries are warranted to retain a certain % of battery capacity, say 70%, after 100,000km or 8/10 years. I know Nissan Australia has replaced a couple of batteries this year under warranty for cars sold in 2013/14 when the Gen 1 Leaf was sold here.

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## Bedford

What year is your Nissan Leaf John?

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## John2b

> What year is your Nissan Leaf John?

   It's a 03/2016 with 30kWh battery, bought from Japan with help from J-Spec Imports. There's plenty of these later Gen 1 Leafs at used car dealers now brought in under SEVS (Specialist and Enthusiast Vehicles Scheme), but when I decided to buy one last year there were none in Australia because they were only added to SEVS register in September 2018. 
It's Achilles heel is the range not because 200km isn't usually enough, but because we are off grid and can't count on there being enough sun to charge it for the NEXT trip and keep our house system fully charged on any particular day. I don't want to charge it overnight and draw down the house batteries. We obviously prefer to use our 'free' car as much as possible however we do have another car for the rare occasion it mightn't work out - so far that hasn't happened.

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## Marc

_ Insurance companies will have massive trouble because, without accidents, the costs will become cheaper.  Their car insurance business model will disappear.  Real estate will change. Because if you can work while you commute, people will move farther away to live in a more beautiful or affordable neighborhood.  Electric cars will become mainstream about 2030. Cities will be less noisy because all new cars will run on electricity. Cities will have much cleaner air as well. (Can we start in Los Angeles, please?)  Electricity will become incredibly cheap and clean.  Solar production has been on an exponential curve for 30 years, but you can now see the burgeoning impact. And it’s just getting ramped up.  Fossil energy companies are desperately trying to limit access to the grid to prevent competition from home solar installations,  but that simply cannot continue - technology will take care of that strategy.  Health: The Tricorder X price will be announced this year. There are companies who will build a medical device (called the "Tricorder" from Star Trek) that works with your phone, which takes your retina scan, your blood sample and you breath into it.  It then analyses 54 bio-markers that will identify nearly any Disease.  There are dozens of phone apps out there right now for health purposes.  WELCOME TO TOMORROW – it actually arrived a few years ago.  _ The above is enough for me. 
I particularly like the statements of fact that electricity will become incredibly cheap and "clean" ... will electricity become as cheap as it was 30 years ago before the great global warming fraud? I hope so. As for "clean" (?) when has electricity been "dirty" ?
And the gem is *Solar production has been on an exponential curve for 30 years, but you can now see the burgeoning impact.* You bet I can see the burgeoning impact on my electricity bill that has grown by 4 or 5 times what it was before the big global warming fraud.  
 The insurance companies are trembling in their boots! Electric cars will make them obsolete No accidents!
hahahahahahahahahahahaha 
And then we have the medical app. Of course!, the Iphone will make everything right. Press a button and be happy.
They should have added the health insurance to the list of doomed insurance. With this app no one will get sick! 
1960 ... In the year 2000 all cars will fly. I thought the say was ... and pigs will fly  :Rofl5:

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## Bros

> The above is enough for me.

   As I said you can pick the eyes out of it but no matter who you are there are some things there that no one saw coming so it is a chronology of history. As for the future no one can predict it there are people still predicting the end of the world and one day they will be right.
I am waiting for the prostate examination by iPhone as currently it won’t fit.

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## John2b

30 years ago electricity was cheap because all of the utility companies were publicly/government owned and operated, now electricity generation, distribution and retailing is predominantly controlled by for-profit companies.  *ACCC chairman Rod Sims targets 'enormous' energy profits* https://www.afr.com/politics/accc-ch...0180503-h0zl15

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## Marc

> As I said you can pick the eyes out of it but no matter who you are there are some things there that no one saw coming so it is a chronology of history. As for the future no one can predict it there are people still predicting the end of the world and one day they will be right.
> I am waiting for the prostate examination by iPhone as currently it won’t fit.

  Ha ha, my wife constantly complains about her patient turning to Google doctor before the consultation only to display the gargantuan misinterpretation of the information or misinformation they find. 
I am sure that some form of better methods of diagnosis will be had in the not so distant future, but those predictions of you phone to replace doctor and diagnostics lab, by looking into a hole or by singing a song in A minor whilst standing on your left leg forming a 4, are cute but nothing else.

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## Marc

> 30 years ago electricity was cheap because all of the utility companies were publicly/government owned and operated, now electricity generation, distribution and retailing is predominantly controlled by for-profit companies.  *ACCC chairman Rod Sims targets 'enormous' energy profits* https://www.afr.com/politics/accc-ch...0180503-h0zl15

  Yes John, no need to rub it in. We have turned free marketeers in areas were we should be socialist, (energy, education, transport etc) and socialist in areas we must be free market, like free enterprise, private property, freedom of speech etc.

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## Bros

> Ha ha, my wife constantly complains about her patient turning to Google doctor before the consultation only to display the gargantuan misinterpretation of the information or misinformation they find. 
> .

   The only time I turn to Dr Google is to look up the side effects and dosage of medicines we receive.

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## UseByDate

> I am waiting for the prostate examination by iPhone as currently it wont fit.

  At least with the iPhone you get a digital examination. Those analogue phones were a real bugger. :Shock:

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## Bloss

Just for the information of the boys & girls on the forum Toyota says there are around 30,000 parts in a an average car https://www.toyota.co.jp/en/kids/faq/d/01/04/

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## DavoSyd

> Just for the information of the boys & girls on the forum Toyota says there are around 30,000 parts in a an average car https://www.toyota.co.jp/en/kids/faq/d/01/04/

  pretty sure whitey66 already found that link  :Wink:

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## DavoSyd

(just like we found the "there's 14'000 parts in a Merlin airplane engine" link)

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## John2b

> At least with the iPhone you get a digital examination. Those analogue phones were a real bugger.

   Yeah, but with digital you have to have the right privacy settings and best to turn off roaming and auto downloads.

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## Whitey66

> Yeah, but with digital you have to have the right privacy settings and best to turn off roaming and auto downloads.

   Auto downloads could get quite messy.

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## Spottiswoode

> Just for the information of the boys & girls on the forum Toyota says there are around 30,000 parts in a an average car https://www.toyota.co.jp/en/kids/faq/d/01/04/

   Whatever the numbers there are certainly significantly more parts in an ICE engine and it’s related running ancillary parts (like the cooling system etc) than there are in an electric motor.

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## Whitey66

> Whatever the numbers there are certainly significantly more parts in an ICE engine and it’s related running ancillary parts (like the cooling system etc) than there are in an electric motor.

  I don't think anyone is disputing that. But there is definitely not 1000 times the parts in an ICE versus an EV motor.

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## Whitey66

> To the best of my knowledge the consumption in km/kWh reported by the car computer (and confirmed by the tripmeter) is measured from the kWh delivered into the vehicle, and therefore DOES take into account all of the inefficiencies of the on-board charger, battery, controller, and motor. This is no different to the fuel consumption of an ICE vehicle in km/lt including the losses of fuel pump, fan, water pump, other ancillary equipment, etc, being calculated from the volume of fuel delivered into the vehicle. 
> I can read the kWh delivered by the display on the EVSE (electric vehicle service equipment) and calculate the expected range top-up by dividing the kWh delivered to the vehicle by the average consumption in km/kWh. The EVSE energy display concurs with the off-grid inverter display as well. If the on-car losses (charger, battery, controller and motor) were not included in the km/kWh consumption figure the range expected after charging would be considerably less than it actually is and I would have run out of battery on several occasions, which I haven't.  
> Obviously there are inefficiencies at each energy transformation, of which there are several. The figures I have seen for the total round trip electric car efficiencies after on-board losses are typically >80%, which is 4 or 5 times better than an ICE.

   So does your car know if it has been fast charged or slowly charged? The faster you charge a battery the more losses you get, therefore if you fast charge your car it should  give you a decreased km/kWh range when full compared to if it's slowly charged if what you are saying is correct.
Do you agree?

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## John2b

> So does your car know if it has been fast charged or slowly charged? The faster you charge a battery the more losses you get, therefore if you fast charge your car it should  give you a decreased km/kWh range when full compared to if it's slowly charged if what you are saying is correct.
> Do you agree?

  Theoretically there is increased loss when fast charging, but in practice the increased loss is trivial. The lithium batteries used in today's vehicles are vastly different to historical storage battery cells. In practical terms there is no loss in range per kWh of charge when charging the Leaf at 22kW compared to charging at 1kW. 
Edit: The only time I've ever charged at a fast charging station I was surprised the charger supplied LESS kWh than I expected to top up the range. Now I realise why: DC fast charging bypasses the inefficient on-board charger in the Leaf.

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## Bedford

> It's a 03/2016 with 30kWh battery

  Thanks, 
I was interested in the gearing setup and found these pics, Isopack: 2013 (Second Generation) Nissan Leaf Drive Unit Teardown of a break down of one.   
So they have about an 8:1 double reduction constant mesh set up, with no mechanical neutral. 
That being the case you can't tow them on four wheels for example behind a camper van type vehicle? 
How does the regenerative part work, I understand the principal but with a petrol/diesel vehicle you don't necessarily brake once over a hill or coming off the accelerator. 
Does this work like a Jake or exhaust brake on a truck where it's manually activated? 
One more question, can you roll start them?  :Biggrin:

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## Spottiswoode

> I don't think anyone is disputing that. But there is definitely not 1000 times the parts in an ICE versus an EV motor.

   Yet there are many here arguing pedantics. Furious agreement springs to mind.

----------


## John2b

> That being the case you can't tow them on four wheels for example behind a camper van type vehicle?
> How does the regenerative part work, I understand the principal but with a petrol/diesel vehicle you don't necessarily brake once over a hill or coming off the accelerator. Does this work like a Jake or exhaust brake on a truck where it's manually activated?
> One more question, can you roll start them?

  The motor is always engaged, but being almost frictionless the car coasts similar to an ICE car coasting in neutral. Nissan do not recommend towing with the front wheels on the ground because the electrics may be damaged. Leafs and other BEV cars can be towed behind RVs using a dolly under the driven wheels. See: https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car...2261433735.htm 
Regeneration is computer controlled with the motor electronically configured to be a generator (i.e. reversing the connections). In the Gen 1 Leaf are two forward 'gears', either 'D' (drive) which is mild braking effect or 'B' (brake) which is a moderate braking effect, selected by the 'gear' lever. In 'D' the car feels like an automatic transmission ICE, with slight forward creep that allows easy hill starts and with mild engine braking charging the propulsion battery when the accelerator is released.  Applying the brake pedal also increases the amount of regenerative braking, so the brake pads are only lightly used except in emergency braking. In 'B' the braking force is much more significant and more energy taken back from the wheels for charging. 
It is almost possible to drive the car without using the brake pedal at all, apart from final stops and emergency braking. I live near sea level and climb a steep hill to a 180m high plateau before arriving down a steep hill into the local town at sea level. As much energy is used in the 1km climb as the 15km drive across the plateau, but that energy is mostly returned on the descent at each end if I judge the speed going into the descent so as not to need to use the brakes heavily. 
All of the Leaf's ancillary equipment and control systems run from a standard 12 volt lead acid car battery, which is charged by a DC-DC charger from the propulsion battery when the car is 'On'. If the 12 battery is flat, say from leaving the radio or lights on, the car cannot be driven, but you can 'jump start' the car using booster cables. (They ought to have an on-board jump switch to fire up the DC-DC inverter, something I might add one day.) 
If the propulsion battery is almost but not quite flat, the 12 volt battery has charge and the car is at the top of a hill, then rolling the car down the hill in 'D' will charge the battery at a rate of 30kW if the hill is steep enough, giving several kilometres of extra range on flat ground for each kilometre of rolling downhill. Obviously a kilometre of rolling downhill at 1:10 gradient will give more extra range than a kilometre of rolling downhill at 1:20 gradient. 
If the propulsion battery is dead flat, the controller will not let the car to be turned 'On' and roll starting wouldn't be possible, just as an ICE car with empty fuel tank can't be roll started.  :Biggrin:

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## Bedford

> The motor is always engaged, but being almost frictionless the car coasts similar to an ICE car coasting in neutral. Nissan do not recommend towing with the front wheels on the ground because the electrics may be damaged.

  Must be more to it than that, how/why would the electrics be damaged?    

> If the propulsion battery is almost but not quite flat, the 12 volt battery has charge and the car is at the top of a hill, then rolling the car down the hill in 'D' will charge the battery at a rate of 30kW if the hill is steep enough, giving several kilometres of extra range on flat ground for each kilometre of rolling downhill. Obviously a kilometre of rolling downhill at 1:10 gradient will give more extra range than a kilometre of rolling downhill at 1:20 gradient. 
> If the propulsion battery is dead flat, the controller will not let the car to be turned 'On' and roll starting wouldn't be possible, just as an ICE car with empty fuel tank can't be roll started.

  Yeah, but the ICE car doesn't make it's own fuel, the electric car does.  :Rolleyes:

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## DavoSyd

and in more exciting news (compared to counting car parts and trying to make John2b "gotcha" posts)  https://www.greencarreports.com/news...ncy-record-too

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## DavoSyd

> If the propulsion battery is dead flat, the controller will not let the car to be turned 'On' and roll starting wouldn't be possible,

  https://www.businessinsider.com/can-...1-5/?r=AU&IR=T

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## Bedford

> https://www.businessinsider.com/can-...1-5/?r=AU&IR=T

  And your point is?

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## DavoSyd

> And your point is?

  go on... read the article, it's not too long or technical...  
plus, even if you don't find anything of interest or of directly relevant in there - this is somewhat inconsequential because I was replying to John2b - and this was in a more "_FYI - check this out"_ manner, rather than a "I have a point to make" manner...

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## John2b

> Must be more to it than that, how/why would the electrics be damaged?

  The controller is not designed to regulate the charging system under the conditions of towing. From the Owner's Manual: "If your vehicle needs to be towed, do it with the front wheels raised. If the front wheels are on the ground when towing, the traction motor may generate electricity. This may damage the components of the EV (Electric Vehicle) system and cause a fire." 
If the Leaf is towed in neutral, the motor still turns but is not 'loaded'. This may result in 1000+ volts at its terminals, which being well above the normal 400 volt operating voltage may damage the electronic controller or cause arcing over of terminals and connections. 
If the car is "Off" the transmission is locked. If the car is partially charged when placed under tow while "On" and in 'D' or 'B' the regenerative braking will attempt to put 30kW into the battery, which would be a huge stress for the towing vehicle and most like cause it to overheat. It would be like towing a small van with the brakes locked on. If the Leaf is fully charged there is no regenerative braking to prevent damage to the battery. At some point when being towed from a partially charged state it will change from being like dragging a lump of concrete to towing a low friction van.

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## phild01

Because of the regenerative nature of the braking system how do the tyres hold up for wear, being the actual point of friction rather than the brake pads of a normal car?

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## John2b

Moving a Nissan Leaf with four wheels on the ground (from the service manual):  CAUTION: If the vehicle must be unavoidably moved with front wheel on the ground or four wheel on the ground, release the park lock and hold the park lock in the released status (N position). The park lock is activated when power switch is OFF. Always perform the following work so that the N position status is maintained. If the vehicle is moved without performing the following work, serious accident may be caused. Steering lock does not operate after performing this work. Be careful that the brake effectiveness is reduced and steering operation becomes heavy. 1. Turn power switch ON (Press power switch twice without depressing brake pedal). At this moment, check that parking brake is operated. 2. Shift selector lever from the P position to the N position (Depress brake pedal while all doors are closed, and then release the P position). 3. Remove the following fuse. • PBW MTR 4. Release parking brake. 5. Turn power switch OFF. (Release brake pedal) 6. Move the vehicle while power switch is OFF. 7. Fix the vehicle after moving. (Using parking brake or tire stopper) 8. Install fuse that is removed. 9. Turn power switch ON (Press switch twice without depressing brake pedal) and wait for 5 seconds at this moment, maintain the shift position to the N position. (Charge 12V battery if its voltage is low) 10. Turn power switch OFF. (Wait for 5 seconds)

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## DavoSyd

> Because of the regenerative nature of the braking system how do the tyres hold up for wear, being the actual point of friction rather than the brake pads of a normal car?

  braking in an ICE car also wears out tyres... 
the friction created between the brake pad and the brake disk is given off (i.e. wasted) as heat and noise energy - as is the energy given off by the tyres and the road (which is also wasted in the EV car) 
(point is that stopping a 1000kg car from 60km/h will have the same tyre wear outcome, regardless of the braking mechanism)

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## Bedford

> Originally Posted by *John2b*   
>  If  the propulsion battery is dead flat, the controller will not let the  car to be turned 'On' and roll starting wouldn't be possible,

   

> Originally Posted by *DavoSyd*   https://www.businessinsider.com/can-...1-5/?r=AU&IR=T

   

> Originally Posted by *Bedford* 
>  And your point is?

    

> go on... read the article, it's not too long or technical...  
> plus, even if you don't find anything of interest or of directly relevant in there - this is somewhat inconsequential because I was replying to John2b - and this was in a more "_FYI - check this out"_ manner, rather than a "I have a point to make" manner...

  I read the article and the title was,   

> Can You Charge a 2011 Nissan Leaf by Towing it? Apparently So (VIDEO)

  The first sentence states "you have 6 miles of available range left", 
 The "apparently so" in the title of the article indicates to me that you were saying John was wrong even though John's post referred to a "dead flat" battery. 
I don't believe John's quote and your link were comparing apples with apples, however I do realise I'm dealing with people that believe it's entirely possible to pick up a tird by the clean end.

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## chrisp

> ... however I do realise I'm dealing with people that believe it's entirely possible to pick up a tird by the clean end.

  Wow! Did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

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## Bedford

> Wow! Did you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

  No, why?

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## John2b

> Because of the regenerative nature of the braking system how do the tyres hold up for wear, being the actual point of friction rather than the brake pads of a normal car?

  EV cars tend to run a new class of high efficiency tire, either Bridgestone Ecopia or Toyo Neo. High efficiency = low heat generation = long life. Many Leaf owners report getting more than 100k+ from a set of tires.

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## phild01

> EV cars tend to run a new class of high efficiency tire, either Bridgestone Ecopia or Toyo Neo. High efficiency = low heat generation = long life. Many Leaf owners report getting more than 100k+ from a set of tires.

  So obviously then tyre wear is greater on battery cars ....have just noticed this Goodyear comment:  After testing, Goodyear says that “traditional tires can wear out up to 30% faster on electric vehicles. https://electrek.co/2018/03/08/goody...nstant-torque/

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## John2b

> So obviously then tyre wear is greater on battery cars ....have just noticed this Goodyear comment:

   It obviously depends on the torque capability of the car and whether the driver actually uses it or not. A Tesla Model S in 'Ludicrous' mode that does 0-100 in a smidge over 2 seconds with a hoon behind the wheel is going to chew through tires faster than me in the Leaf which takes 10 sec to get to 100. Apart from the Nissan Leaf, most of the electric cars sold to date have been high performance sports cars or high performance SUVs.  *Tesla Model S breaks acceleration record with Ludicrous Mode* https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/07/...ration-record/

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## phild01

> It obviously depends on the torque capability of the car and whether the driver actually uses it or not. A Tesla Model S in 'Ludicrous' mode that does 0-100 in a smidge over 2 seconds with a hoon behind the wheel is going to chew through tires faster than me in the Leaf which takes 10 sec to get to 100. Apart from the Nissan Leaf, most of the electric cars sold to date have been high performance sports cars or high performance SUVs.  *Tesla Model S breaks acceleration record with Ludicrous Mode*  https://www.engadget.com/2017/02/07/...ration-record/

  I would say the Goodyear testing would be more comparative than extreme.

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## Marc

> Because of the regenerative nature of the braking system how do the tyres hold up for wear, being the actual point of friction rather than the brake pads of a normal car?

  Phil, Davo's explanation is correct. The mass of the car stops because of the friction between the tyres and the road. How that friction is achieved is irrelevant. 
What is very relevant is the mass of the car. Electric cars are supposed to be lighter (?) ... if so they should stress the tyres less in slow down mode. If they weight the same or more than a petrol car, then the wear should be more.
Acceleration however is another matter. If the driver has the equivalent of a Lamborghini engine at his perusal, chances are that he will use it and so the tyres will go up in smoke.  
Considering the massive amount of wrecked electric cars that are on the market to be stripped or rebuilt, comparing with the minuscule number of car in circulation, i would say that most drivers do use the acceleration and therefore the tyres suffer more.
Or so I think anyway  :Smilie:  
And that makes that previous comment about insurance companies going broke if we all had electric cars because there would be no accidents, rather ludicrous ... but that is another matter.

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## John2b

> I would say the Goodyear testing would be more comparative than extreme.

  Very interesting. I followed a lot of forums about Nissan Leafs as they are by far the most sold BEV with ~500,000 on the road. There isn't much discussion about short tire life, but plenty of comments of very long tire life. Obviously Leaf's are not bought by people who want a top shelf performance sports car. It seems that high performance BEVs have high tire wear to match. 
"There’s no getting around it, the instant torque of electric vehicles can be quite hard on tires – especially with the heavier and more powerful models, like Tesla’s."  Goodyear unveils new tire for electric cars to reduce wear from powerful instant torque

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## phild01

> The mass of the car stops because of the friction between the tyres and the road. How that friction is achieved is irrelevant.

   Yes, I did realise that a while after I asked.  My first consideration was that the road surface was the retarding surface as opposed to the brake pads. I needed to think differently about that.  It does make sense the extra acceleration that a battery car is capable of.

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## DavoSyd

strange that electronicly controlled cars lack a "preserve tyre life" setting/function? 
or does the "nut behind the wheel" problem carry over from ICE vehicles?

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## Bedford

> Moving a Nissan Leaf with four wheels on the ground (from the service manual):  CAUTION: If the vehicle must be unavoidably moved with front wheel on the ground or four wheel on the ground, release the park lock and hold the park lock in the released status (N position). The park lock is activated when power switch is OFF. Always perform the following work so that the N position status is maintained. If the vehicle is moved without performing the following work, serious accident may be caused. Steering lock does not operate after performing this work. Be careful that the brake effectiveness is reduced and steering operation becomes heavy. 1. Turn power switch ON (Press power switch twice without depressing brake pedal). At this moment, check that parking brake is operated. 2. Shift selector lever from the P position to the N position (Depress brake pedal while all doors are closed, and then release the P position). 3. Remove the following fuse.  PBW MTR 4. Release parking brake. 5. Turn power switch OFF. (Release brake pedal) 6. Move the vehicle while power switch is OFF. 7. Fix the vehicle after moving. (Using parking brake or tire stopper) 8. Install fuse that is removed. 9. Turn power switch ON (Press switch twice without depressing brake pedal) and wait for 5 seconds at this moment, maintain the shift position to the N position. (Charge 12V battery if its voltage is low) 10. Turn power switch OFF. (Wait for 5 seconds)

  Thanks for this, it appears to be an overly complicated and fragile system when the same could be achieved with a simple dog clutch downstream of the transmission brake.

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## Whitey66

> pretty sure whitey66 already found that link

   Actually I didn't even need to look for a link, a few years ago I worked for a Holden dealer who also had Toyota and one of the service managers used to say to the customers when something went wrong "well there's over 30,000 parts in them,something has to break". When I asked him how he knew that, he said it was in a Toyota bulletin. And that was years ago so there's probably even more now.
I also remembered when the VT Commodore came out, the Holden trainer told us there was over 1,500 wiring circuits in each vehicle but I never actually counted them  :Biggrin:

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## Whitey66

> (just like we found the "there's 14'000 parts in a Merlin airplane engine" link)

   Haven't seen one of them in any production cars, this shows how ridiculous the claim of 20,000 parts in a car engine is  :2thumbsup:

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## Whitey66

> Theoretically there is increased loss when fast charging, but in practice the increased loss is trivial. The lithium batteries used in today's vehicles are vastly different to historical storage battery cells. In practical terms there is no loss in range per kWh of charge when charging the Leaf at 22kW compared to charging at 1kW. 
> Edit: The only time I've ever charged at a fast charging station I was surprised the charger supplied LESS kWh than I expected to top up the range. Now I realise why: DC fast charging bypasses the inefficient on-board charger in the Leaf.

  I'm not talking about loss of range in the battery John, i'm talking about losses of power in versus power stored. Eg. a 100kWh battery takes more than 100kWh of power to charge. The faster you charge it the more loss you get.
The reason the DC charger is more efficient is because there is no A/C to DC conversion, which also causes more power losses.

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## UseByDate

> Haven't seen one of them in any production cars, this shows how ridiculous the claim of 20,000 parts in a car engine is

  Does an armoured car with a gun count as a “production car”? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Meteor
 Basically a slightly modified Merlin engine.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wkxrQOkNdc

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## John2b

> Thanks for this, it appears to be an overly complicated and fragile system when the same could be achieved with a simple dog clutch downstream of the transmission brake.

  Not really complicated - just take out the fuse for the parking lock while it is not engaged and move the car with it turned off... simpler than disconnecting a tail-shaft, which is what you have to do to tow a typical automatic car any significant distance with all wheels on the ground.

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## Whitey66

> Not really complicated - just take out the fuse for the parking lock while it is not engaged and move the car with it turned off... simpler than disconnecting a tail-shaft, which is what you have to do to tow a typical automatic car any significant distance with all wheels on the ground.

   If the transmission fluid pump is on the "driven" side of the transmission it is ok to tow for however long you want. If it's on the "drive" side, it shouldn't be towed at all or only short distances and speeds advised by the manufacturer.
With most vehicles being front wheel drive or all wheel drive now, rather than rear wheel drive, pulling tail shafts isn't very common these days. Most people just call a flat bed.

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## John2b

> With most vehicles being front wheel drive or all wheel drive now, rather than rear wheel drive, pulling tail shafts isn't very common these days. Most people just call a flat bed.

  Exactly - electric cars are not a "special case", which is essentially what I was trying to point out, however clumsily.

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## Bedford

> Not really complicated - just take out the fuse for the parking lock while it is not engaged and move the car with it turned off... simpler than disconnecting a tail-shaft, which is what you have to do to tow a typical automatic car any significant distance with all wheels on the ground.

  Well that's fine for isolating a parking lock but does nothing to overcome the electrical issues that may self destruct if towed.

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## John2b

> I'm not talking about loss of range in the battery John, i'm talking about losses of power in versus power stored. Eg. a 100kWh battery takes more than 100kWh of power to charge. The faster you charge it the more loss you get.
> The reason the DC charger is more efficient is because there is no A/C to DC conversion, which also causes more power losses.

  I'm not sure if I have been clear enough in my posts. I have never suggested the batteries return 100% of input energy. With the lithium cells used in cars recovery is over 98% even when fast charged, and better when slow charged. The question I was responding to was whether the energy consumption in km/kWh included or excluded the car's charger/controller/battery losses. In the case of the Nissan Leaf the calculated consumption is net of all losses, so 1kWh into the car's plug will deliver 7.9 kilometers of range _in my case._ I don't know how much of the 1kWh ends up in the batteries or at the driving wheels, nor does it matter, and that is the same as using petrol into the tank to calculate km/lt in a ICE car. 
I did come across an BEV startup website that is a little more liberal with the truth! In their case they quote range per hour of charge at specific rates, and they also quote a consumption in Wh per km. When trying to reconcile the two different consumption figures which should be equivalent, charge figure calculates out to ~20% more energy per km than the consumption specification. This is a classic example of double-speak, but not out of context with some other outlandish claims about this hypothetical BEV. This is the only time I have seen a BEV specification for consumption at the propulsion motor input as opposed to the charge connector input. It's evokes the standard practice for specification of ICE engine outputs where all ancillary equipment such as water pump, fan, generator, AC compressor, steering pump, etc are removed when measuring horsepower.  https://lightyear.one

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## Bros

Didn’t take long to charge $$$ and they can’t seem to get the plugs and power type standardised as yet.

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## UseByDate

> Didnt take long to charge $$$ and they cant seem to get the plugs and power type standardised as yet.

  The plugs and power types are standardised. Ie there is a Standard for each of them. There is more than one Standard though. :Biggrin:

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## Bros

> The plugs and “power types” are standardised. Ie there is a Standard for each of them. There is more than one Standard though.

   Yep even with the power type, don’t know which has the highest octane AC or DC.

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## DavoSyd

> they can’t seem to get the plugs and power type standardised as yet.

  EU is struggling with this right now...  https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/16...ing-in-the-eu/ 
then there's AU   

> *A National Strategy for Electric Vehicles*
> The number of electric vehicle sales globally is increasing every year, which if managed sensibly could provide cleaner air, better health, smarter cities, lower transport costs, and lower greenhouse gas emissions. 
> A National Electric Vehicle Strategy will ensure the transition to electric vehicle technology and infrastructure is planned and managed, so that all Australians can access the benefits of the latest vehicle technology. 
> Electric vehicles produce no exhaust emissions and use very efficient motors. Greater electric vehicle uptake would reduce both greenhouse gas emissions and urban air pollution from the road transport sector. Managed well, the shift to electric vehicles could support more efficient electricity networks by smoothing out peak demand and avoiding costly generation and network investments. 
> There are challenges to overcome so Australia can embrace this technology. Australians want to know more about access to charging infrastructure, the cost of electric vehicles and the range of models available. Addressing these issues now is necessary. 
> The National Electric Vehicle Strategy will coordinate action across governments, industry, and urban and regional communities. This work will include consultation on whether mandating an electric vehicle plug type could improve the consistency of public charging. 
> The strategy will build on grants from the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA), finance from the Clean Energy Finance Corporation (CEFC) and the current work of the COAG Transport and Infrastructure Council. 
> As part of our commitment to cleaner air, the Coalition Government is also improving Australia’s fuel quality to ensure access to the latest vehicles, and savings for motorists from more fuel efficient vehicles.

  https://www.environment.gov.au/clima...ctric-vehicles   

> The Australian Coalition government says will not release its national electric vehicle strategy until midway through 2020

  https://thedriven.io/2019/03/26/coal...ntil-mid-2020/

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## UseByDate

> EU is struggling with this right now...  https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/16...ing-in-the-eu/ 
> then there's AU  https://www.environment.gov.au/clima...ctric-vehicles  https://thedriven.io/2019/03/26/coal...ntil-mid-2020/

  The Australian government will just wait and use the Standard that is prescribed by the EU. They might Australianise it by calling it an AS Standard, but it will be the EU Standard. We could rotate the sockets 180 degrees just to be different. :Blush7:

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## John2b

> The plugs and “power types” are standardised. Ie there is a Standard for each of them. There is more than one Standard though.

  More than one type of plug is a natural consequence of technological evolution. As cars and batteries have developed, so have the requirements for chargers, connectors and cables to take advantage of the improved battery capabilities. 
AC charging uses the onboard AC to DC charger in the car and generally works from 100Vac to 250Vac from 1kW to 6.6kW depending on the local supply and the charger specifications. In Australia charging at 3.3kw AC needs a dedicated 15A circuit and at 6.6kW AC a dedicated 32A circuit, for single phase connections. DC charging can be anything from 10kW to 100's of kW depending on the battery design and the charging station capability. Plugs may need to handle from 6 amp AC to >>600 amp DC. No one plug makes practical sense for every possibility. 
BEV cars 'talk' to the charger to tell it what their charging capability and state of charge is  and there is a universal communication protocol, which generally means that conversion from one type of AC plug to another, or one type of DC plug to another is possible. Many public charge stations are 'bring your own cable' so you take the cable to suit your car. Tesla are a special case because Tesla has its own charging network infrastructure and originally included free charging in the purchase price of its cars, and Tesla had different plugs for that reason. Adapters for Tesla chargers to other car are however available.

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## Marc

> The plugs and “power types” are standardised. Ie there is a Standard for each of them. There is more than one Standard though.

  So that would be the object's version of multiculturalism?

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## UseByDate

> More than one type of plug is a natural consequence of technological evolution. As cars and batteries have developed, so have the requirements for chargers, connectors and cables to take advantage of the improved battery capabilities. 
> AC charging uses the onboard AC to DC charger in the car and generally works from 100Vac to 250Vac from 1kW to 6.6kW depending on the local supply and the charger specifications. In Australia charging at 3.3kw AC needs a dedicated 15A circuit and at 6.6kW AC a dedicated 32A circuit, for single phase connections. DC charging can be anything from 10kW to 100's of kW depending on the battery design and the charging station capability. Plugs may need to handle from 6 amp AC to >>600 amp DC. No one plug makes practical sense for every possibility. 
> BEV cars 'talk' to the charger to tell it what their charging capability and state of charge is  and there is a universal communication protocol, which generally means that conversion from one type of AC plug to another, or one type of DC plug to another is possible. Many public charge stations are 'bring your own cable' so you take the cable to suit your car. Tesla are a special case because Tesla has its own charging network infrastructure and originally included free charging in the purchase price of its cars, and Tesla had different plugs for that reason. Adapters for Tesla chargers to other car are however available.

  Could use this until a fast charger infrastructure is built. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls

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## Bedford



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## John2b

> 

   :2thumbsup: Well that's one way of wringing a huge lot more milage out of diesel fuel that you'll get from a diesel driving a vehicle directly LOL. :2thumbsup:

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## Whitey66

Tesla is downgrading batteries via WiFi -   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcJK9-BM8I  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-t...-idUSKCN1UY2TW  https://www.greencarreports.com/news...from-some-cars 
The burning cars must have become an issue.

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## DavoSyd



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## UseByDate

> So that would be the object's version of multiculturalism?

  Diversity is our strength  :Rolleyes:

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## DavoSyd

> Diversity is our strength

  it would actually be pluralism.

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## UseByDate

> it would actually be pluralism.

  If by pluralism you mean societal tolerance of diversity, then it cannot exist without anarchy. The problem is that different cultural groups have different taboos. The taboos of the dominant, or group of dominant cultures tends to prescribe the laws of the society. These laws can result in not tolerating or respecting the minority cultures. For example in some cultures a girl is considered sexually mature at the age of nine and can be married. In other cultures this is considered a taboo and laws are put in place to punish paedophiles. Assuming you live in a culture where paedophilia is a taboo, you can say that even though you tolerate and respect the minority culture that permits marriage at nine you are still going to punish them because of the laws set in place by your culture, but that is just distorting the meaning of tolerance and respect, or you can have a society with no laws at all.
You could have separate laws for each and every culture but that would be divisive and not be in the spirit of pluralism and how would society deal with cross cultural offences?

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## DavoSyd

> If by pluralism you mean societal tolerance of diversity,

  no, i didn't mean "societal tolerance of diversity".  
pluralism would be a variety of electric charging plugs (coming from different manufacturers) co-existing in the same charging rack.  
multiculturalism would be the same variety of electric charging plugs sitting next to the ULP and diesel hoses at the servo.

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## UseByDate

> no, i didn't mean "societal tolerance of diversity".  
> pluralism would be a variety of electric charging plugs (coming from different manufacturers) co-existing in the same charging rack.  
> multiculturalism would be the same variety of electric charging plugs sitting next to the ULP and diesel hoses at the servo.

  I thought that you were being literal.  
 Dictionary definition of pluralism relating to the context of diversity is
 _A social organization in which diversity of racial or religious or ethnic or cultural groups is tolerated._

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## DavoSyd

> I thought that you were being literal.

  yes, sorry, my bad - i meant to type more.

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## UseByDate

> yes, sorry, my bad - i meant to type more.

   :2thumbsup:

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## John2b

Just pulled some interesting info from the OBD2 port on the Nissan Leaf. On a trip to my local town 20km away almost 20% of the energy used by the motor came from regenerative braking.

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## Bedford

> Just pulled some interesting info from the OBD2 port on the Nissan Leaf. On a trip to my local town 20km away almost 20% of the energy used by the motor came from regenerative braking.

  Was that for a round trip or one way?

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## DavoSyd

> Just pulled some interesting info from the OBD2 port on the Nissan Leaf. On a trip to my local town 20km away almost 20% of the energy used by the motor came from regenerative braking.

  please supply full GPS data regarding gradients and stop times. /s 
but seriously, would love a screenshot of the OBD data!  :Smilie:

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## John2b

Here's a trip log from the using an OBD2 iPhone App showing speed and elevation. The second screenshot is the individual cell voltages showing a variation of 0.022 volts between the highest and lowest. That small variance indicates a healthy balance between the cells. Apparently the different coloured bars indicates whether the cell is currently being balanced or not. There's about a dozen different screens on this Leaf specific App which has been developed without factory support.

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## John2b

> Was that for a round trip or one way?

   It was was the trip you can see in the screen shot above, just one way.

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## Whitey66

> I'm not sure if I have been clear enough in my posts. I have never suggested the batteries return 100% of input energy.

  I was referring to when you said this "_We are getting 7.9km/kWh in our Leaf (all out of town driving) and when we buy at a charging station in SA it's $0.33/kWh, or ~$42 per 1000 km in our case. At home it's free from off-grid solar." _ If my calculations are correct, 1000 km divided by 7.9 km = 126.58 kWh per 1000 km
                                            126.58 kWh x $0.33 = $41.77 per 1000 km 
This gives us around 0.5% loss for charging which is not possible, I would expect it to be somewhere between 10% - 20% or even higher with a fast charger.

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## Whitey66

> I don't know how much of the 1kWh ends up in the batteries or at the driving wheels, nor does it matter, and that is the same as using petrol into the tank to calculate km/lt in a ICE car.

  No it's not the same, when you fill up with petrol "All" of the petrol you pay for goes into the tank (minus evaporation).
With an EV, not all of the power you pay for is stored in the battery. There are losses in the AC/DC transformation and the charging process that produces heat because batteries have resistance. There are also cooling fans for the charger and sometimes to cool the battery pack, this is also lost energy and all purely from the charging cycle.

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## DavoSyd

> No it's not the same, when you fill up with petrol "All" of the petrol you pay for goes into the tank (minus evaporation).
> With an EV, not all of the power you pay for is stored in the battery. There are losses in the AC/DC transformation and the charging process that produces heat because batteries have resistance. There are also cooling fans for the charger and sometimes to cool the battery pack, this is also lost energy and all purely from the charging cycle.

  are you suggesting 100% of the petrol's energy gets used for propulsion?  edit - closer reading indicates that  no you were not.

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## John2b

> I was referring to when you said this "_We are getting 7.9km/kWh in our Leaf (all out of town driving) and when we buy at a charging station in SA it's $0.33/kWh, or ~$42 per 1000 km in our case. At home it's free from off-grid solar." _ If my calculations are correct, 1000 km divided by 7.9 km = 126.58 kWh per 1000 km
>                                             126.58 kWh x $0.33 = $41.77 per 1000 km. 
> This gives us around 0.5% loss for charging which is not possible, I would expect it to be somewhere between 10% - 20% or even higher with a fast charger.

  The figure is for the kWh delivered into the vehicle charging port, and all losses are therefore already accounted for in the ~7.9 km per kWh into the charging port that we get from our car. So yes, the cost at the charging station does work out to be ~$42 per 1000 km.*   From the OBD2 port I was able to see that around ~82% of the energy delivered into the charging port ends up at the driving wheels, so ~18% is lost in the combination of AC-AC-DC onboard charger, the charge / discharge cycle of the battery, and the DC motor controller.   Just like milage for an ICE is specified from litres of petrol into the tank, milage for a BEV is specified from kWh into the charge port. In neither case is consumption worked out from net energy delivered at the engine output shaft.   *Edit: I just realised that fast charging bypasses the on-board charger, so the actual milage from fast charing is going to be more than 7.9km per kWh delivered to the charge port, by something in the range of +5-10%. Cost per 1000km is actually less than $42 in my example. I did note in a previous post that the amount of kWh delivered in the one and only fast charge was lower than the amount I expected for the range added, and that is the reason way.

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## John2b

> No it's not the same, when you fill up with petrol "All" of the petrol you pay for goes into the tank (minus evaporation).
> With an EV, not all of the power you pay for is stored in the battery. There are losses in the AC/DC transformation and the charging process that produces heat because batteries have resistance. There are also cooling fans for the charger and sometimes to cool the battery pack, this is also lost energy and all purely from the charging cycle.

  The consumption is calculated from the energy delivered into the car, same as a petrol car. Onboard losses are not ignored, they are included.

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## Spottiswoode

UNSEALED 4X4 ISSUE 056 
Land Rover with an electric conversion.  
All this talk of regenerative braking makes me wonder how effective it is on a rear wheel drive vehicle. I think many of us know what happens if you yank on the handbrake lever at speed!

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## METRIX



----------


## Marc

Interesting Metrix ... providing you can tollerate the verbosity of Oh all those peasants with their fossil fuel cars ... ha ha I don't have to que up.
Oh well, that's his show.
I wish presenters all over the english speaking world would stop saying "BolksBagon" How hard is it to say Fffffffolks Vaaaaagen. Not hard really  :Smilie:  
As for the car costing half what petrol costs to run ... that is a bit of an open statement. It depends of the price you pay for electricity, and usually that is out of your control unless you build a solar charger the size of the car itself. Possible if you have the room. 
I find the debate about electric cars fascinating yet heavily biased for no real reason. It's a car ... it's expensive like hell for now ... it is awkward and depending from somewhere to plug in, not different from the early days of LPG, with no LPG pumps to be seen ... or worse, cars on CNG that have all but disappeared.  
As for electric brakes, trucks had electric brakes in the fifties. Big monster coils around the transmission shaft that would slow the truck down in a slope and save the brakes. Only they vented the heat in the air.. Worked a bit like a generator and used parasitic currents to make it as inefficient as possible ... I think the parasitic currents were called Foucault currents.

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## METRIX

Interesting to see their share price this video was prior to 2016

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## Spottiswoode

> I find the debate about electric cars fascinating yet heavily biased for no real reason.

   Well, you did start this thread with heavily biased comments. Unfortunately, at this point in time heavily biased opinions are all too common in the media. It’s all ‘fake news’ according to some when they disagree which doesn’t help anyone get to an informed point of view.

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## METRIX

> I. 
> I find the debate about electric cars fascinating yet heavily biased for no real reason. It's a car ... it's expensive like hell for now ... it is awkward and depending from somewhere to plug in, not different from the early days of LPG, with no LPG pumps to be seen ... or worse, cars on CNG that have all but disappeared.  
> .

  Like anything that's in it's initial stages, it's not initially for everyone, it is going to cost more, it's not going to be as convenient as what might be currently available, but like anything, as the uptake of the product gains and more places to charge become available then it will become the norm. 
We know it's not for you at the moment as it's not for a lot of us at the moment, as you say with LPG initially where did you get it, now it's everywhere much like there will be chargers everywhere.  
I don't think the charging stations will be like current petrol type stations as with the amount of cars on the road petrol stations have a high turnover, average time in a station is probably 5 minutes, or 10 minutes when you get someone who has blocked you in and has to have a discussion with the msrs in the shop about what type of chips to buy, then the ten kids all need feeding and they want to clean the windows, then the tyres, fill the washer, then go inside and want's a coffee and a sausage roll AHHHHH. 
 I hate it when people do that, if your going to do your bloody weekly shop in the local BP move the car to the carpark at the front of the shop and let the people get to the bowser to do what you should be doing filling up and move on. 
Anyway I diverge, with such a short turnover with ICE vehicles, unless charging can be done in under 2 minutes the fill-up stations will be very different to what they are now, as you will need to leave the car charging for 10 or 30 minutes, can you imagine how long the lineup would be getting onto on on Pennant Hills Road, like anything the system will evolve to accommodate for these changes, it has to or it simply won;t work. 
What I see happening is most people will probably charge the car's at home each day, using either off peak or solar / battery systems installed at the residence, this seems the logical progression moving forward.

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## UseByDate

Before Tesla. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljVAA1Tr8Yo

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## UseByDate

> All this talk of regenerative braking makes me wonder how effective it is on a rear wheel drive vehicle. I think many of us know what happens if you yank on the handbrake lever at speed!

  The secret is less yank and more finesse. :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> Before Tesla. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljVAA1Tr8Yo

  And 100 years before that they were electric as well, imagine the battery technology nowadays if they had as much development as an ICE engine

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## METRIX



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## Uncle Bob



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## Marc

Wow Bob ... got as far as 3 minutes, too verbose for me, get to the point. So electric cars are not "popular" ? Who cares! popularity is meaningless ... we used to say "eat shise, millions of flies can not be wrong" 
Which brings me to my point ... (do I have a point?)  :Smilie:  
Was watching the videos Metrix posted, bloody good stuff, loved it. So Ford and Edison had a project electric car that never came to fruition because ... and this is what ... hundred years ago? Because it could only do 150 km before recharging and it took 8 hours to do so. Whaaaaat? Those are the figures they have today, hundred years later????? 
Can't really believe it! 
If you read between the lines though, the edison/ford car must have had a puny little motor and do some 50 km/h, so the old car with modern batteries would have been a winner for sure. So what happened? Seems simple, the limiting factor for the electric car, it's Achilles heel is the battery. So as the battery get better, the extra capacity is used for speed and acceleration and to push around a bigger and nicer car ... yet the autonomy remains almost the same. Not for the mass production said Ford and started making petrol cars. 
Not much has changed. 
To me, the issue with the electric car is not that it is electric, but that it must rely on a battery to store energy rather than making (converting) it's own energy.
A fuel car converts energy from fuel that can store way more energy than a battery. If we need to compress more energy in a battery to push around bigger and faster cars for longer, the amount of energy stored in the box becomes dangerous. Will it ever be possible to store safely a large amount of electrical energy ready to be used by an electric motor that has 120 years old technology? 
I don't have the answer but to me, the winner will be a car that uses an unconventional fuel not one that has the biggest possible battery that needs recharging. 
The story of "Who killed the electric car" is also a good one. Despite conspiracy theories it seems no one did, it died of natural causes. 
i remember a long time ago to read about the GM electric car team and how they were a target of mockery by the rest of the company, particularly when they called the supply office and ordered a series of horse trough. The answer was if they finally decided to tie horses in front of their electric car to get it to move. In reality the trough was intended as a precaution in case they had an accident with their batteries and the worker had to jump in water to get the acid off them ...   :Biggrin:

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## chrisp

Wow Marc! What convoluted ‘reasoning’ - too much energy and ‘making energy’ (whatever that means) and it’s too dangerous. Golly, have you ever seem petrol burn? 
I highly recommend that you don’t buy an electric car, I can see that it’ll never be suitable for you!  :Smilie:

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## SilentButDeadly

> Will it ever be possible to store safely a large amount of electrical energy ready to be used by an electric motor that has 120 years old technology?

  The simple answer is yes. We already do and have done for decades. The only issue for their use in vehicles is energy density and the form factor of batteries themselves relative to conventional fuels. 
It also worth pointing out that the investment in battery development and technology in the last decade has gone exponentially ballistic compared to the previous 100 years of technical development in this space...

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## John2b

> If we need to compress more energy in a battery to push around bigger and faster cars for longer, the amount of energy stored in the box becomes dangerous.

  A long range Tesla S's 100kWh battery when full has 360 megajoules of chemically stored energy. A 4WD with a 100 litre diesel tank when full has 3,590 megajoules of chemically stored energy. That's roughly equal to the energy waiting to get out of 10 Teslas or 20+ of most other electric cars. Who is sitting on the bigger bomb?

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## Whitey66

> A long range Tesla S's 100kWh battery when full has 360 megajoules of chemically stored energy. A 4WD with a 100 litre diesel tank when full has 3,590 megajoules of chemically stored energy. That's roughly equal to the energy waiting to get out of 10 Teslas or 20+ of most other electric cars. Who is sitting on the bigger bomb?

   Diesel is quite safe, you have to heat it up to make it flammable (at normal temperatures, it is only combustible not flammable). You might have made a better argument comparing to petrol rather than diesel. Petrol and diesel tanks don't suffer from "thermal runaway" like Lithium Ion batteries do.
I've seen quite a few lithium ion batteries catch on fire for no reason, i'd hate to be sitting on top of a big one when it decided to let go.

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## chrisp

> Diesel is quite safe, you have to heat it up to make it flammable (at normal temperatures, it is only combustible not flammable). You might have made a better argument comparing to petrol rather than diesel. Petrol and diesel tanks don't suffer from "thermal runaway" like Lithium Ion batteries do.
> I've seen quite a few lithium ion batteries catch on fire for no reason, i'd hate to be sitting on top of a big one when it decided to let go.

  Actually, diesel does suffer from thermal runaway - once it is on fire, it continues to burn and heats the rest of the diesel to the point of ignition. 
I agree that I wouldn’t like to be in an electric car with it’s battery pack on fire, nor would I want to be in a car with it’s fuel on fire.  
But I suspect that you are picking on outlier conditions and outcomes to oppose electric vehicles and support fossil fuel vehicles.  :Smilie:

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## Whitey66

> Actually, diesel does suffer from thermal runaway - once it is on fire, it continues to burn and heats the rest of the diesel to the point of ignition. 
> I agree that I wouldn’t like to be in an electric car with it’s battery pack on fire, nor would I want to be in a car with it’s fuel on fire.  
> But I suspect that you are picking on outlier conditions and outcomes to oppose electric vehicles and support fossil fuel vehicles.

   I'm not picking on anything and don't have an agenda either way, so can a tank of diesel fuel suffer from thermal runaway without any other influences like lithium ion batteries can?
Like I said, I've seen lithium ion batteries self combust, but i'm yet to see a jerry can of diesel self ignite.

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## chrisp

> I'm not picking on anything and don't have an agenda either way, so can a tank of diesel fuel suffer from thermal runaway without any other influences like lithium ion batteries can?
> Like I said, I've seen lithium ion batteries self combust, but i'm yet to see a jerry can of diesel self ignite.

  Anecdotal evidence > logical fallacy. 
Some facts:   

> Regarding the risk of electrochemical failure, the report concludes that the propensity and severity of fires and explosions from the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation.

  from: Stephens, D., Shawcross, P., Stout, G., Sullivan, E., Saunders, J., Risser, S., & Sayre, J. (2017, October). Lithium-ion battery safety issues for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles (Report No. DOT HS 812 418). Washington, DC: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.   Can be found at  https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...217-v3-tag.pdf

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## Marc

> A long range Tesla S's 100kWh battery when full has 360 megajoules of chemically stored energy. A 4WD with a 100 litre diesel tank when full has 3,590 megajoules of chemically stored energy. That's roughly equal to the energy waiting to get out of 10 Teslas or 20+ of most other electric cars. Who is sitting on the bigger bomb?

  Yes, John, that is my point precisely. (even when most 4wd, unless modified don't have 100 l tanks let alone 100 l petrol) 
The limitation of electric cars, at least in the eyes of the consumer that is set in the concept of 500+ km autonomy, is in the amount of energy stored. Chemical energy stored in fuel can be safely stored in a tin can and we have vast experience and a lot of data to show that statistically speaking the chances of a fire after a collision is acceptably low even for petrol. 
Batteries on the other hand have yet to be made that large. 10 times the current Tesla or 20 times a Leaf? ... that is a very big bomb and we have data to show what happens to a battery in a collision. The energy is released all at once and you better be far away. If you have a garage and your bedroom is above it, I would suggest you park the car in the street. 
My point is, that storage of electric energy is not the best idea. it is like going camping packing all ready made meals rather than taking the ingredients and cooking them on site. 
Once someone invents a better camping stove, there will be no turning back and the ancient electric motor and battery driven car will be dutifully forgotten ... again. 
Until then, the electric car has the advantage of cheap running costs, due to novelty, no excise and subsidised electricity. 
That side of the equation will not last when the number of cars grows ... not to mention when governments get off the "climate change" boogeyman and invent a different one.
But this is just my viewpoint. I am biased in favour of the fission powered DeLorean.

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## John2b

> Diesel is quite safe, you have to heat it up to make it flammable (at normal temperatures, it is only combustible not flammable). You might have made a better argument comparing to petrol rather than diesel. Petrol and diesel tanks don't suffer from "thermal runaway" like Lithium Ion batteries do.
> I've seen quite a few lithium ion batteries catch on fire for no reason, i'd hate to be sitting on top of a big one when it decided to let go.

  My post was about energy content, not failure modes, in response to a previous post comparing energy systems in vehicles. 
But would you walk around with a bottle of liquid hydrocarbon fuel in your pocket? You obviously wouldn't walk around with a lithium battery in your pocket, so what powers your phone?

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## John2b

A Nissan Leaf with a battery that held as much energy as a 100 litres of diesel would have a range of 6,000 - 8,000 kilometres, depending on driving conditions.

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## John2b

> The limitation of electric cars, at least in the eyes of the consumer that is set in the concept of 500+ km autonomy, is in the amount of energy stored. Chemical energy stored in fuel can be safely stored in a tin can and we have vast experience and a lot of data to show that statistically speaking the chances of a fire after a collision is acceptably low even for petrol.

  Er... the limitation you speak of is in the eyes of "non-consumers" of electric vehicles, like yourself. Manufacturers of cars know only too well that once a consumer has owned an electric vehicle they really do not want to purchase an ICE again. Consumer experience is what is driving world vehicle manufacturers to abandon ICE vehicle platforms, not climate driven religious piety which is something generally unknown in business. 
And electrical energy has been stored in cans for at least as long as liquid fossil fuels. Hove you forgotten you AAs, Cs and Ds?

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## Marc

Yes John, but you are avoiding my point. Conversion vs storage. Purely hypothetical I know. So far all we have is electric cars attached to a bomb. 
It may well be that we will be stuck with that poor choice for a long time, who knows! 
My point is that it is a poor choice and old technology. No novelty at all besides all the hype.  
The DeLorean on the other hand ...  :Smilie:  
PS
I have yet to see a raging inferno fuelled by a AA battery  :Rofl5:

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## John2b

House fires caused by AA batteries are probably less prevalent than those cause by liquid fuels inside houses, but they do happen: *AA Batteries Cause House Fire In Hastings, Nebraska*https://videos.files.wordpress.com/e...e-fire_dvd.mp4

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## Whitey66

> My post was about energy content, not failure modes, in response to a previous post comparing energy systems in vehicles. 
> But would you walk around with a bottle of liquid hydrocarbon fuel in your pocket? You obviously wouldn't walk around with a lithium battery in your pocket, so what powers your phone?

  And energy content means absolutely nothing without a risk factor. Diesel and petrol vehicle fires don't self ignite again after being extinguished like batteries do. If I could power my phone with a bottle of diesel in my pocket I would feel safer doing that, but once again it's the risk factor that counts. If my phone battery ignites, the worse that will probably happen is roasted nuts not a cremation. Lithium ion batteries are getting better all the time though, through "lessons learnt" as they are a reasonably new technology.

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## Whitey66

> Anecdotal evidence —> logical fallacy. 
> Some facts:    from: Stephens, D., Shawcross, P., Stout, G., Sullivan, E., Saunders, J., Risser, S., & Sayre, J. (2017, October). Lithium-ion battery safety issues for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles (Report No. DOT HS 812 418). Washington, DC: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.   Can be found at  https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.do...217-v3-tag.pdf

  I'd rather trust my own experiences when making a decision rather than reading a piece of literature written by some piss-jerkers who have probably had no hands on experience with batteries.
I couldn't be bothered reading the link but if the paragraph you listed is the guts of it then there are other issues with a battery failure besides the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents.

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## John2b

> And energy content means absolutely nothing without a risk factor.

  Did you miss the post on risk factors of electric vehicle fires above? #508 Here's a summary:  Are electric cars more likely to catch fire? The simple answer is probably not. Chances are they might even be safer, though it's tough to say that definitively.   https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/new...isk/index.html

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## chrisp

> I'd rather trust my own experiences when making a decision rather than reading a piece of literature written by some piss-jerkers who have probably had no hands on experience with batteries.
> I couldn't be bothered reading the link but if the paragraph you listed is the guts of it then there are other issues with a battery failure besides the accidental ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents.

  Those ‘piss-jerkers’ work for the US Department of Transport - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

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## Whitey66

> Those ‘piss-jerkers’ work for the US Department of Transport - National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

  Does anyone even know what hands on experience they have?
There are also people in high places in Australia that have a high education status but very little hands on experience or what was previously called common sense.

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## Spottiswoode

> I'd rather trust my own experiences when making a decision rather than reading a piece of literature written by some piss-jerkers who have probably had no hands on experience with batteries.

   And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how we end up with anti-vaxxers.  
true, current batteries can burn, but technology is improving all the time. This will occur less and less as we improve the systems used to store electrical energy.

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## Whitey66

> Did you miss the post on risk factors of electric vehicle fires above? #508 Here's a summary:  Are electric cars more likely to catch fire? The simple answer is probably not. Chances are they might even be safer, though it's tough to say that definitively.   https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/new...isk/index.html

  There seems to be a lot of "probably", "possibly", "chances", "anticipated", "expected" etc. when talking about EV battery fires.
We'll all find out about it in the future anyway so there's no point in arguing about it now when the ratio of EV vs ICE vehicles is so low.

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## Whitey66

> And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how we end up with anti-vaxxers.

  Yeah, that's exactly how it happens  :Rolleyes: .
For starters i'm making a decision purely for myself that won't affect others when i've had over 35 years experience in the automotive and electrical trade.
Yeah, that's the same thing as being an anti-vaxxer  :Confused:

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## DavoSyd

> For starters i'm making a decision purely for myself that won't affect others when i've had over 35 years experience in the automotive and electrical trade.

  careful, you are leaving yourself wide open to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect

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## Whitey66

> careful, you are leaving yourself wide open to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect

   Was that link given to you on your last psychologist visit ?

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## DavoSyd

> Was that link given to you on your last psychologist visit ?

  no - it is commonly used across the internet, 
usually in the form of a graph:   
often in discussions about anti-vaxxers... hence my pun?

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## Spottiswoode

> Yeah, that's exactly how it happens .
> For starters i'm making a decision purely for myself that won't affect others when i've had over 35 years experience in the automotive and electrical trade.
> Yeah, that's the same thing as being an anti-vaxxer

   At least you have some experience then. But don’t dismiss out of hand an article without reading it properly and claim them at the authors are crackpots. 
lets not also forget the bias that comes from watching regular media. Batteries in fire are great news stories to ‘warn us’. We see a few on the news, then more get reported because it is ‘big news’ and everyone gets excited about batteries catching on fire and forgets that there are millions (billions?) out there that don’t catch on fire because they are designed, built and used correctly.  
But I’m not trying to make this personal, just trying to point out that opinions on the internet/media are often just opinions based on a confirmed bias of the authors. We are all guilty of it at times.

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## Bros

Talking to my mechanic today and in his day he was a bit of a lead foot and he said he had the opportunity to try an electric car. He was surprised by the power and said it takes some getting used to with no noise.
He then went on to make some points that has not been resolved yet and that is who repairs them as the battery can be dangerous, is a mechanic that has a licence to work on them or an electrician who is licence to work on cars or another new trade. He did tell me that firies have now been trained and have the equipment to deal with the battery pack in electric and hybrid cars.

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## DavoSyd

> who repairs them

  perhaps the manufacturer would have a wide network of certified service centres with specifically trained technicians? 
however, for regular servicing once the warranty has expired, most of the service items are basic DIY stuff...

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## John2b

> He then went on to make some points that has not been resolved yet and that is who repairs them as the battery can be dangerous, is a mechanic that has a licence to work on them or an electrician who is licence to work on cars or another new trade.

  That's a good point Bros. In Australia you pretty much have to go to the original supplier for repairs to the propulsion battery. Each Nissan service centre has at least two technicians trained for each new vehicle as it comes out (not just EVs BTW!) Special jigs and supports might be needed to drop battery packs safely. Just like the introduction of airbags, there'll be a period of adjustment whilst service centres and crash repairers up-skill. As an aside, I certainly haven't been penalised by insurance costs. The full comprehensive insurance policy on my Nissan Leaf is costing ~$430 per annum. 
I believe the US has laws requiring vehicle manufacturers to disclose service information to preclude market manipulation of after-sales service. That means service information is available for similar models in Australia. I was able to download the Nissan Leaf service manual which, like any new car, runs to thousands of pages. 
Brakes, windows, navigation, wheels, suspension, etc, etc, are essentially no different between ICE and BEV vehicles. In fact, most BEVs have a 12 volt electrical system that runs ancillary equipment a la ICE vehicles. Brake boosters and power steering are electrically operated, which mimics diesel engined vehicles that don' have a source of vacuum for brake boosters etc. In any case some ICE vehicles have electric power steering and other formally mechanically driven ancillaries these days to improve fuel consumption. 
The big difference between a BEV and an ICE powered vehicle is that, because they don't incorporate a severe under-bonnet vibration generator called a reciprocating engine which literally shakes every part of the vehicle to pieces, BEVs are proving much more reliable than ICEs. No mechanical engineer would find that the least bit surprising!

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## John2b

> perhaps the manufacturer would have a wide network of certified service centres with specifically trained technicians? 
> however, for regular servicing once the warranty has expired, most of the service items are basic DIY stuff...

  Absolutely correct Davo. A BEV is a DIY doddle for everyday maintenance, of which there is a scarcity compared to ICE vehicles. 
For major work, perhaps New Zealand can give insight to the future of BEV servicing In Australia. Because NZ has large numbers of imported BEVs with no official dealer service network, the work is undertaken by independent garages. There is practically nothing that can't easily and economically be fixed on a BEV in NZ. They even have a number of written off vehicles for sources of electric motors, chargers, propulsion batteries, etc. In other year or two Australians will be wondering what all the apprehension about BEVs was for!

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## Bros

> Brakes, windows, navigation, wheels, suspension, etc, etc, are essentially no different between ICE and BEV vehicles. In fact, most BEVs have a 12 volt electrical system that runs ancillary equipment a la ICE vehicles. Brake boosters and power steering are electrically operated, which mimics diesel engined vehicles that don' have a source of vacuum for brake boosters etc. In any case some ICE vehicles have electric power steering and other formally mechanically driven ancillaries these days to improve fuel consumption.

   Quite correct it is just another machine with parts that can fail or wear out so who then does the diagnostic as to the fault and replaces the faulty part. It would be good if the various parts were in a module system that like in some industrial systems is self diagnosing and it is just a matter of replacing the plug in module but I fear that a simple system like that will be to much to ask. Then there is the external sensors and actuators that will fail.

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## Bros

> however, for regular servicing once the warranty has expired, most of the service items are basic DIY stuff...

  I dont share your enthusiasm as a large proportion of the motoring public expertise is limited to putting fuel in the vehicle and if they remember pumping up the tyres.

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## DavoSyd

> I dont share your enthusiasm as a large proportion of the motoring public expertise is limited to putting fuel in the vehicle and if they remember pumping up the tyres.

  well at least your mechanic won't be out of work then?

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## Bros

> well at least your mechanic won't be out of work then?

  He's retiring next year.

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## DavoSyd

lucky him  :2thumbsup:

----------


## John2b

> It would be good if the various parts were in a module system that like in some industrial systems is self diagnosing and it is just a matter of replacing the plug in module but I fear that a simple system like that will be to much to ask.

  The systems on all modern cars including BEVs are self diagnosing to a greater or lessor degree and the fault codes (DTCs or diagnostic trouble codes) are logged and downloaded through the OBD2 connector, a standard fitment on many cars since the mid 1990s, and all cars sold in Australia today. Some systems like the entertainment and navigation systems are not accessed through the OBD2 port, but through a sep*a*rate USB port. Many independent garages subscribe to an internet service that includes the service interface software and data for any vehicle model worldwide, irrespective of manufacturer. Obviously the dealers have their own networks for their proprietary service software.

----------


## Bros

> The systems on all modern cars including BEVs are self diagnosing to a greater or lessor degree and the fault codes (DTCs or diagnostic trouble codes) are logged and downloaded through the OBD2 connector, a standard fitment on many cars since the mid 1990s, and all cars sold in Australia today.

  I know that as I use a scanguage but some of the fault codes need interpreting. eg my Mazda gave an idling fault which was traced back it one dirty injector so it needs some skill. My daughters car used to just stop with no fault code but my mechanic traced it back to the crank angle sensor which only gave a fault code after the application of some heat from a heat gun.
Codes don't give all the answers with the peripherals this is where the mechanic/technician or whatever you call them come in.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> I dont share your enthusiasm as a large proportion of the motoring public expertise is limited to putting fuel in the vehicle and if they remember pumping up the tyres.

   Which is not as bad for electric vehicles because they dont require as much maintenance.   
Interesting note that I read in an electric vehicle forum that bugs and spiders etc can be more of a problem in electric vehicles becuase there are no oils and fumes and less heat and vibration etc to ward them off. Maybe I wont be upgrading to electric after all. Dont fancy extra huntsmans deciding it is a nice warm dry place to play.

----------


## Bros

Guidelines for safety certificate inspections (otherwise known a roadworthy) in Queensland, I expect other states to be similar.

----------


## UseByDate

> You might be confusing service and repair. ICE cars have many moving parts that wear and will eventually require repair. 
> Regarding electric vehicles, the motors are typically 3-phase induction motors - no brushes, no slip rings, and only bearing to wear out. They are pretty simple and very durable - like most 3-phase motors commonly used in industry. 
> The only relay in the drive train that I can recall is the battery-pack isolator which is used to isolate the battery if the car is involved in an impact. Everything else is electronic.

  Electric car motors. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XHiZTFDhQY

----------


## UseByDate

Serious repair of electric cars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_kkcIyTUmc

----------


## John2b

> Guidelines for safety certificate inspections.

   Interesting. 33 engine, driveline and emission issues that are reasons for rejecting an ICE vehicle roadworthy don't apply to BEVs, replaced by 6 BEV specific issues.

----------


## John2b

Denmark launches electric ferry service holding 30 cars and 200 passengers between Søby and Fynshav, a distance of about 19 kilometres each way.  https://www.thelocal.dk/20190815/den...-maiden-voyage

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## John2b

> Diesel is quite safe, you have to heat it up to make it flammable (at normal temperatures, it is only combustible not flammable).

  Just don't park a diesel (or petrol) car on grass after a fast drive...  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...lames/11461722

----------


## UseByDate

EV range talk.
 Range record in a single day 3,425km. Track running, fast charge and very expensive car.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znYfJecwXPM

----------


## John2b

Perhaps range anxiety is related to performance anxiety?

----------


## UseByDate

> Perhaps range anxiety is related to performance anxiety?

  Second cousins? :Smilie:

----------


## Marc

So the logic is that since (some) car's exhaust filter can get hot after pushing it to it's limit, and ignite long grass when parked on it ... the chances of this is one in a mullion ... this equates to the catastrophic fires from batteries in a collision.
Ergo
Battery powered cars are just as bad ... or is it diesel cars are just as bad ... confusing.
I say something different.
Evil of many consolation of fools 
It's the same old story ... appeal to emotions and lack of real data and economic logic. Spooky how the left uses the same anti-logic.  
Electric cars are an experiment, a work in progress and will, may be, or may be not, become mainstream and convenient in some future near or distant. Sorry can not be more precise, have to change the incandescent light bulb in my crystal ball. 
Until then they are and remain a curiosity, and any comparison is unfair ... for the EV and for the ICE. 
Meantime, the piston engine reigns supreme and will for some time.
Electric cars today, mutatis mutandis ... equate to calling the fuel cars below, as the norm.  https://youtu.be/c1Qi3dTshSQ?t=2 https://youtu.be/vYyfRUWM2f0

----------


## chrisp

> So the logic is that since (some) car's exhaust filter can get hot after pushing it to it's limit, and ignite long grass when parked on it ... the chances of this is one in a mullion ...

  How did you come up with those odds? Do you think that if you parked 1 million ICE powered cars in long grass, that only one would start a fire? Have you looked up the typical operating temperature of a catalytic converter?

----------


## PhilT2

Another of those "one in a million" incidents happened in Brisbane in 2015, very similar; police car stops in long grass after high speed pursuit.  https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nat...05-gk1u39.html

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## John2b

That's a Ford Falcon petrol patrol car, so it's not just diesel particulate filters that are the problem. Any vehicle with a hot exhaust underneath is a potential fire hazzard.  The MFB and the Country Fire Authority attended 1524 car fires in 2014 and 2015 in Victoria. That makes a chance of about one in three thousand for the period, or more than 300 times more likely than speculated above.

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## DavoSyd

but how many "car fires" were arson?

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## John2b

At least 10. Defence lawyer Manny Brennan told the court custody officers needed to be aware it was Berg's first time in custody and he had an injured leg which required medical attention.   https://www.powerfmballarat.com.au/n...over-car-fires

----------


## Whitey66

> Just don't park a diesel (or petrol) car on grass after a fast drive...

    This is old news, there have been warnings about this since 30 - 35 years ago.
The Police are a bit behind the normal people though  :2thumbsup: .
That car would have burnt almost the same even if it had no fuel in it after it stopped.

----------


## DavoSyd

> That car would have burnt almost the same even if it had no fuel in it after it stopped.

  completely unlike an electric vehicle with a flat battery!!

----------


## Whitey66

> completely unlike an electric vehicle with a flat battery!!

  Unless the guy in John2b's post above is about. All it would take would be a ciggy lighter to the plastic front or back bumper and it's gone regardless of electric or fuel powered. 
More work being done here on battery safety - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxjMwTxjSfc

----------


## John2b

It used to be that diesels were preferred for driving in paddocks and off road because the lower exhaust temperature meant less risk of stating a grass fire. No so with modern diesels. No chance of a battery electric car starting a fire from a hot exhaust under the vehicle.

----------


## Whitey66

> It used to be that diesels were preferred for driving in paddocks and off road because the lower exhaust temperature meant less risk of stating a grass fire. No so with modern diesels. No chance of a battery electric car starting a fire from a hot exhaust under the vehicle.

  It used to be that diesels were preferred for their simplicity and reliability also, but that is no longer the case either. Particulate filters on new diesels are causing more problems than just lighting fires, they are emptying the owners pockets when the vehicle is out of warranty. Yes Toyota, Mazda, Holden, VW, Jeep etc. i'm looking at you.

----------


## METRIX

> It used to be that diesels were preferred for their simplicity and reliability also, but that is no longer the case either. Particulate filters on new diesels are causing more problems than just lighting fires, they are emptying the owners pockets when the vehicle is out of warranty. Yes Toyota, Mazda, Holden, VW, Jeep etc. i'm looking at you.

  Yes, $10,000 and up for dpf is crazy.
Toyota has finally admitted they have a problem with the hilux dpf, and have issued a "notice" not a recall as its not a safety issue. 
I see new diesel hilux blowing all types of crap all the time in the city, not sure if it's the DPF problem or re gen but I don;t see it on any other modern diesels, just the Hilux.
Problem with these dpf is Toyota say every 200 to 300ks a clean needs to take place, this requires the car to be doing over 60ks for 30 minutes or the operation will fail.  
That's ok if you can actually do 60kph for min 30min, in the city this can be impossible, so the dpf will get cranky and simply blockup, which requires specialist cleaning or replacement, bear in mind the cleaning needs to happen 3 or 4 times every tank fill and you can;t remove the DPF because it's illegal and heavy fines .  
Diesels are getting too fussy nowadays, petrol seems to be the easy reliable one now.

----------


## DavoSyd

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUc7Jc...ature=youtu.be

----------


## John2b

One day soon climbing into the autonomous battery electric levitating high-speed aero train to zoom across the continent on a puff of air, it will become apparent that all the current horseless coaches around now are archaic engineering.    https://inhabitat.com/japan-unveils-...ic-aero-train/

----------


## Bros

> Diesels are getting too fussy nowadays, petrol seems to be the easy reliable one now.

  I agree with you there as I am on my last diesel vehicle.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

I've been on my last diesel vehicle since 2002.

----------


## John2b

Mine's a 1993, totally bullet proof, will run on kero, canola oil and a lot of other things in-between.

----------


## Marc

> One day soon climbing into the autonomous battery electric levitating high-speed aero train to zoom across the continent on a puff of air, it will become apparent that all the current horseless coaches around now are archaic engineering.    https://inhabitat.com/japan-unveils-...ic-aero-train/

  Considering that Japan built the first bullet train in 1964 and we have jet to build one, debating that perhaps the airlines will suffer and if buying from germany france or japan keep all the frogs and their flees out of harm way, i think that Australia will have a fast train or fast ... whatever that contraption is ... in 2999 when the rest of the world considers them obsolete.

----------


## UseByDate

> Electric Excavator.  https://www.facebook.com/nomis1973/v...0022343285922/

  Same digger, different experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cumZxYjzx6M

----------


## Bedford

> Same digger, different experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cumZxYjzx6M

  So, does the hour meter run off engine revs or just when the key is turned on?

----------


## Whitey66

> So, does the hour meter run off engine revs or just when the key is turned on?

  Good question, (although should be motor revs  :Wink:  ) if it took him 1.9 hours of digging to dig that trench at the start, anyone could do it much faster with a shovel.
 The one that went flat in 2 hours seems to have a scoop that is twice as wide as the second video. This would flatten the battery faster.

----------


## UseByDate

> So, does the hour meter run off engine revs or just when the key is turned on?

  They don't define it in the video but I would assume that it was simply a clock measuring the time that the digger is on. It would be easy to measure motor revolutions if a stepper motor is used or get an approximate indication of motor revolutions if an asynchronous motor is used. In the video the term telematics is used indicting that machine data is sent to the manufacturer for monitoring machine performance.

----------


## UseByDate

> Good question, (although should be motor revs  ) if it took him 1.9 hours of digging to dig that trench at the start, anyone could do it much faster with a shovel.
>  The one that went flat in 2 hours seems to have a scoop that is twice as wide as the second video. This would flatten the battery faster.

  Does that include your grandmother?  :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

> They don't define it in the video but I would assume that it was simply a clock measuring the time that the digger is on.

  What does "on" mean, a key type switch that is "on" to allow accessories to operate, or the engine/motor is actually doing work?

----------


## John2b

The beauty of electric motors is they can be "on", i.e. in a demand ready state, but not using power. With 3-phase permanent magnet electric motors maximum torque is available on demand from 0rpm - there is no need for an idling state that wastes energy just to keep the motor ready. And when peak power output is reached, it does not fall off with increasing revs, although at this point torque does decline, but not nearly as rapidly as an ICE.

----------


## John2b

Don't get left behind with a diesel prime mover:  https://youtu.be/Od81_2mglRE

----------


## Bedford

> The beauty of electric motors is they can be "on", i.e. in a demand ready state, but not using power.

  So when does the hour meter start counting?

----------


## UseByDate

> What does "on" mean, a key type switch that is "on" to allow accessories to operate, or the engine/motor is actually doing work?

  To me “on” means “not disabled”. The “on” switch would be switched to the on position *and* an operator/driver would be seated in the digger. Interlocks would prevent the digger being switched on without an operator/driver being seated in the digger.
 The operator/driver may be just sitting in the digger eating his/her sandwiches but I think that he/she would seek a much more comfortable place to eat lunch. :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

> To me on means not disabled. The on switch would be switched to the on position *and* an operator/driver would be seated in the digger. Interlocks would prevent the digger being switched on without an operator/driver being seated in the digger.
>  The operator/driver may be just sitting in the digger eating his/her sandwiches but I think that he/she would seek a much more comfortable place to eat lunch.

  So is the hour meter counting while the operator eats his/her sandwiches?

----------


## UseByDate

> So is the hour meter counting while the operator eats his/her sandwiches?

  Probably, if the operator is sitting in the digger, with seat belt fastened and on switch switched on while eating his/her sandwiches. The sight of this would probably cause the building site Health and Safety officer to have a heart attack. :Smilie:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVKPS5aPvOc

----------


## Bedford

> Probably, if the operator is sitting in the digger, with seat belt fastened and on switch switched on while eating his/her sandwiches. The sight of this would probably cause the building site Health and Safety officer to have a heart attack.

  So it is quite possible to have the hour meter counting non productive (sandwich) time, that is then used to calculate consumption that could make the numbers look far better than they actually are?

----------


## UseByDate

> So it is quite possible to have the hour meter counting non productive (sandwich) time, that is then used to calculate consumption that could make the numbers look far better than they actually are?

  The operation of the hour meter would be of my least concern whilst the Health and Safety officer is fighting for his/her life in the hospital. :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

> the operation of the hour meter would be of my least concern whilst the health and safety officer is fighting for his/her life in the hospital.

  wtf?

----------


## John2b

> So it is quite possible to have the hour meter counting non productive (sandwich) time, that is then used to calculate consumption that could make the numbers look far better than they actually are?

  Yep, exactly the same as the hour meter running on a ICE digger when the engine is idling, making the numbers look far better than they actually are, if the same reasoning applies. Who ever turns off diesels when they are idle?

----------


## Bedford

> Yep, exactly the same as the hour meter running on a ICE digger when the engine is idling, making the numbers look far better than they actually are, if the same reasoning applies.

  So you agree that the consumption numbers can't be relied on for accuracy? 
Does your ICE digger have an electric or mechanical hour meter?    

> Who ever turns odd diesels when they are idle?

  WTF2?

----------


## Whitey66

> Does that include your grandmother?

  No way, my grandmother could easily do it with a teaspoon if she was still alive god bless her soul. They built em tough back then  :2thumbsup:

----------


## John2b

> So you agree that the consumption numbers can't be relied on for accuracy?

  I think most people would agree that a day's work is a day's work for a digger, irrespective of whether it is powered by a diesel engine or an electric motor. The hour meter on a ICE machine is for engine service intervals, largely irrelevant with electric motor. There seems to be a "gotcha" theme running through this thread that's trying to prove how worthless electric propulsion is. The first Skil 6 volt electric drills were probably pooh-poohed by some in the '70s, but who would be without a battery drill these days?  Attachment 124038

----------


## chrisp

> Same digger, different experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cumZxYjzx6M

  I reckon that electric powered excavators will become popular, particularly in built up areas, due to the minimal noise, low fumes and obviously health benefits to all concerned. Definitely a game-changer. I’d hazard to guess that ICE machines may eventually be banned in the urban environment once the electric machines become prevalent.

----------


## Bedford

> I think most people would agree that a day's work is a day's work for a digger, irrespective of whether it is powered by a diesel engine or an electric motor.

  I think most people wouldn't know what they were looking at when it comes to diggers.   

> The hour meter on a ICE machine is for engine service intervals, largely irrelevant with electric motor.

  Well it's to do with service intervals for the machine which just happens to be a little more than a motor or engine.   

> There seems to be a "gotcha" theme running through this thread that's trying to prove how worthless electric propulsion is.

  Yes, I have to agree, especially when stuff like this is posted,   

> Originally Posted by *usebydate*   
>  the  operation of the hour meter would be of my least concern whilst the  health and safety officer is fighting for his/her life in the hospital.

   

> Originally Posted by *John2b*   
>  Who ever turns odd diesels when they are idle?

  However, I'm not against electric propulsion,   

> While it's ok to hear and see the performance of  electric cars on the drag strip etc, I think if they want to convert  people away from ICE engines they are going the wrong way about it. 
> They need to think more about what the consumer really needs/wants in a vehicle, not what the system thinks is best for you. 
> They need to think like Henry Ford and probably the original Volkswagen  people in that they produced cars that were as affordable as possible to  most of the buyers. 
> Nowhere in this thread have I seen the equivalent Electric powered  version of a Ford or Holden type conventional station wagon type car  that is suited to not only families with three kids and a dog , but also  a lot of trades and sales type people. 
> Build a vehicle without all the unnecessary BS, like a 40 year old Ford  or Holden but with the benefits of the improved safety systems that have  developed over the years, price it accordingly and I think people will   gradually convert to them.

   

> The first Skil 6 volt electric drills were probably pooh-poohed by some in the '70s, but who would be without a battery drill these days?

  Yes, they were a POS and they have come a long way, but it's taken 40 or 50 years.

----------


## John2b

> Yes, they were a POS and they have come a long way, but it's taken 40 or 50 years.

  Er... the first Bosch battery hammer drill was released in 1984 and it was a serious tool back then.

----------


## Bedford

> Er... the first Bosch battery hammer drill was released in 1984 and it was a serious tool back then.

  So is Bosch still using 1984 technology or has it also come a long way in the 35 years since then?

----------


## UseByDate

> No way, my grandmother could easily do it with a teaspoon if she was still alive god bless her soul. They built em tough back then

  I have to agree with you there.
 My grandmother was in service before she got married. Basically a house servant working all daylight hours (16 hours per day in Summer) seven days a week with half a day off per week to go to church and half a day off per fortnight for her social life.
 During the second world war my mother walked 4 km to work in total blackout (no street lights, no house lights, no cars) with the chance of being aerial bombed. Worked a 12 hour night shift on a capstan lathe and then walked home again. Lived on rationed food and slept in a bomb shelter in the garden during the day. She was 18 years old. :2thumbsup:

----------


## Bedford

> I reckon that electric powered excavators will become popular, particularly in built up areas, due to the minimal noise, low fumes and obviously health benefits to all concerned. Definitely a game-changer. Id hazard to guess that ICE machines may eventually be banned in the urban environment once the electric machines become prevalent.

  I'm not sure how you're going to stop the noise of the breaker/hammer shown in the video? 
Are there any ways these excavators can recharge themselves (even partially) while working or are they completely reliant on some other source?

----------


## John2b

> So is Bosch still using 1984 technology or has it also come a long way in the 35 years since then?

  You claimed that early battery drills were POS. Not true.

----------


## chrisp

> I'm not sure how you're going to stop the noise of the breaker/hammer shown in the video

  It’d probably be difficult, but most of the work shown was in soil, so most of the work was a lot quieter.   

> Are there any ways these excavators can recharge themselves (even partially) while working or are they completely reliant on some other source?

  In theory, yes. There is the possibility of collecting the energy from lowering the bucket. It’ll only be a partial regeneration (a bit like a hybrid car braking), I’m not sure if it is possible in the unit in the video as it’d depend upon the hydraulic power pack used in the machine.

----------


## Bedford

Where did I say this?    

> You claimed that early battery drills were POS. Not true.

  
You said,   

> Originally Posted by *John2b*   
>  The  first Skil 6 volt electric drills were probably pooh-poohed by some in  the '70s, but who would be without a battery drill these days?

  And I replied 
Yes, they (being The  first Skil 6 volt electric drills) were a POS and they have come a long way, but it's taken 40 or 50 years.          
I also personally owned and used one at the time. 
You've really got to stop making stuff up John.

----------


## Whitey66

> Er... the first Bosch battery hammer drill was released in 1984 and it was a serious tool back then.

  I used one of these when I left school in my first job. They were heavy, hard to use and the battery didn't last long. I'm pretty sure the one I used had a normal keyed jacobs chuck, the one in the photo looks like an SDS? They were a big step up from any other cordless of the day imho.
I thought it was amazing at the time though, to have a tool like this without a cord attached. The guy I worked for ended up buying a petrol engined drill because this one wouldn't last long enough and struggled on the bigger holes. Not sure on the brand but I think it was a Tanaka and it was a beast!

----------


## John2b

> Yes, *they* were a POS and *they* have come a long way, but it's taken 40 or 50 years. You've really got to stop making stuff up John.

   You're saying the first "they" that was a POS is a different "they" to the one that took 40 or 50 years to come a long way? How would a reader know the two "they"s refer to different items when the word appears in conjunction?  :Rolleyes:

----------


## Spottiswoode

> I reckon that electric powered excavators will become popular, particularly in built up areas, due to the minimal noise, low fumes and obviously health benefits to all concerned. Definitely a game-changer. I’d hazard to guess that ICE machines may eventually be banned in the urban environment once the electric machines become prevalent.

   Electric machines are perfect for working in confined spaces too. No poisonous gases emitted. There is a reason underground mine machines are electric. 
As for regenerative charging, it makes very good sense to capture the energy of gravity or braking. It is fairly efficient too if deigned properly. Where is the link way back in this thread where a mine dump truck generates power becuase it goes up hill empty and downhill loaded so the net electric energy used provides excess.

----------


## Bedford

> You're saying the first "they" that was a POS is a different "they" to the one that took 40 or 50 years to come a long way? How would a reader know the two "they"s refer to different items when the word appears in conjunction?

  I'm saying,  Yes, they (being The  first Skil 6 volt electric drills) were a POS and they (being The  first Skil 6 volt electric drills)have come a long way, but it's taken 40 or 50 years.         (Voltages may have changed over those years) 
I hope that makes it simpler for you to understand.

----------


## John2b

> I hope that makes it simpler for you to understand.

  Be patient with me. I find your posts so convoluted I don't know what the point is you were/are making. Each of your posts seems to me to derogate the previous post you made. You can have the last word as I only seem to be digging myself into a deeper hole.  :Redface:

----------


## Bedford

> Be patient with me. I find your posts so convoluted I don't know what the point is you were/are making. Each of your posts seems to me to derogate the previous post you made. You can have the last word as I only seem to be digging myself into a deeper hole.

  Good idea John, you certainly couldn't rely on the clown operating the excavator in the video to dig you out.    

> Same digger, different experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cumZxYjzx6M

    

> So, does the hour meter run off engine revs or just when the key is turned on?

  Now to get back to the question, that only Whitey seems to understand. 
My reason for asking the above question was to ascertain whether the machine would clock up hours when it was not working/running by just leaving the key on? (to allow safety lighting etc as would be required on most work sites) 
If the hour meter was activated either by sensor or mechanically by engine/motor Revs it wouldn't be adding hours when not working/running. (Safety lighting could still operate with the key on)    
https://www.v3electronicsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Mechanical-Tachometer-with-Hourmeter.pdf  
 Now if an electric hour meter which is just a clock that counts when it's turned on, was left on when the engine/motor was not in operation, i.e. not working, it would add hours that were not actually worked. 
The video above referred to 1.9 hours of work for "that   
much" battery/fuel consumption. 
But no-one really knows how much that is, 1.9 hours to make a crater like that with this machine is ridiculous. (you couldn't call it a trench) 
Which raises the question, was the machine actually working that long or was the key left on for safety reasons or to make the numbers look better? 
So for "3 and a bit hours" it's used 20% of the battery.  
What percentage of usable battery is there?     

> Originally Posted by *John2b*   
>  Yep,  exactly the same as the hour meter running on a ICE digger when  the  engine is idling, making the numbers look far better than they  actually  are, if the same reasoning applies.

  Well not if it was at low idle with an hour meter counting Revs as it would be showing less hours.

----------


## chrisp

> Good idea John, you certainly couldn't rely on the clown operating the excavator in the video to dig you out.  
> Now to get back to the question, that only Whitey seems to understand. 
> My reason for asking the above question was to ascertain whether the machine would clock up hours when it was not working/running by just leaving the key on? (to allow safety lighting etc as would be required on most work sites) 
> If the hour meter was activated either by sensor or mechanically by engine/motor Revs it wouldn't be adding hours when not working/running. (Safety lighting could still operate with the key on)    
> https://www.v3electronicsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Mechanical-Tachometer-with-Hourmeter.pdf  
>  Now if an electric hour meter which is just a clock that counts when it's turned on, was left on when the engine/motor was not in operation, i.e. not working, it would add hours that were not actually worked. 
> The video above referred to 1.9 hours of work for "that   
> much" battery/fuel consumption. 
> But no-one really knows how much that is, 1.9 hours to make a crater like that with this machine is ridiculous. (you couldn't call it a trench) 
> ...

  It seems to me that you are going down rabbit holes here with this discussion on what the hour-meter might, or might not, be measuring. 
If you are after the typical run-time per charge for the machine, why not just look up the manufacturer’s data?   
(Data from https://www.l-lynch.com/docs/JCB-19C-1E.pdf )

----------


## woodbe

Bedford, wouldn't the battery system show how much battery is available and being using like any of the electric cars? 
Would see the battery used for lights and heavy stuff etc. If the system is used hard it would use the battery faster, and using it easier it would use the battery slower.  
Same as an electric car with electric batteries.

----------


## Marc

Zero "emissions" _at point of use ..._ at point of power production it is business as usual. What a joke.  
Besides that machine does not even rate as a toy. 
If it wasn't for the obtuse comments of the moron on the video, like the story of the diesel machine working inside a closed room and the need for the operators to go out to breed now and again  .... " and that says a lot about diesel doesn't it" ...  :Doh:   it wouldn't rate mention. 
I am sure a real excavator can be made electric and with comparable power to a diesel excavator capable of putting in a real day's work, with the speed of a real machine ... problem is that it would cost like 10 diesel machines and that makes it a pathetic excuse for complying with the doctrine of CO2 is baaaad. 
Funny how discussions on this line, inevitably divide people into the "good guys" (those who are happy to spend other people's money to change the world to their liking and sends us back to the caves in the process ...) ... vs ... the "bad guys", those horrible conservative who have the gall to want to keep on using proven technology in order to keep things functioning within a reliable frame, and get the job done.  
Amazing!   
Oh yes .... running a diesel excavator inside a closed room is a bad idea, just like running a generator inside a closed room ... and if the generator is far away, that does not make it better. 
I like the idea of an electric machine. I hate the morons that present it like it is some sort of virtue when it is a pathetic experiment that costs triple for a quarter of the power. 
i am thinking in repowering my boat. A yanmar 125 hp costs $22,000. a 70 kw marine motor, about 80,000 and then I need batteries, controllers and a ton of other things, so my guess is 150,000. 
Oh but it is soo virtuous!, I am sure gaia will shine her blessing upon me for sure.

----------


## John2b

The gist of my posts is: use the appropriate tool for the job. I own plenty of battery electric tools including a chainsaw, a mower, a motor vehicle and several cordless drills. I also own a conventional chainsaw, a conventional mower, a conventional motor vehicle and several conventional drills. There are times when the ICE powered thing is nowhere near as practical, as convenient, as useful and/or as inexpensive to operate as its battery powered cousin. In those circumstances it would be the fool who persisted using ICE powered device. 
The electric car is just so much better to own and use than its ICE cousin, it is a absolute standout way beyond my expectations. I bought one as a way to use the "spare" electricity from my off grid system, not to save the planet. The planet will save itself and spit us humans out when its ready - we've pretty much assured no other finale is possible.

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## UseByDate

300 kWh battery.
 5-7 hours of working time, depending on application.
 1-2 hours charging time
 Operating weight of 26 metric tons    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_97v_pLj6c

----------


## UseByDate

Electric Mini to be sold in the UK for less than the cost of the ICE version. Electric cars are subsidised with a government grant in the UK.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6csoYiUzltc

----------


## John2b

Shootout between a battery electric chainsaw and a nitro ICE chainsaw.  https://youtu.be/C7QFYAdmFjk

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Shootout between a battery electric chainsaw and a nitro ICE chainsaw.  https://youtu.be/C7QFYAdmFjk

  It's this sort of important content that keeps me interested in this thread...none of that hypothetical fear the future stuff...just pure information and entertainment.  :Wink:

----------


## John2b

> It's this sort of important content that keeps me interested in this thread

   If only more development had been put into 1980s Japanese wind-up tool technology...  https://youtu.be/ErSoOR7CqH8

----------


## Bedford

> It seems to me that you are going down rabbit holes here with this discussion on what the hour-meter might, or might not, be measuring. 
> If you are after the typical run-time per charge for the machine, why not just look up the manufacturer’s data?   
> (Data from https://www.l-lynch.com/docs/JCB-19C-1E.pdf )

  Yes I'm aware of what the manufacturer states........... 
But this is not consistent with either the previous video or this one,   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvnhw5Hqjfs 
 both with JCB representatives. 
The second video states 8-10 hours work time with a bucket that is at least 3 to 4 times the width, how can that be? 
The good news is that you can run the battery down to 5% before it has to be charged. 
Have you ever operated an excavator under real work conditions?

----------


## Bedford

> Bedford, wouldn't the battery system show how much battery is available and being using like any of the electric cars?

  Going on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvnhw5Hqjfs there is a battery availability indicator, but I previously didn't know how low you could drag the battery down.    

> If the system is used hard it would use the battery faster, and using it easier it would use the battery slower.  
> Same as an electric car with electric batteries.

  Yes I would think so, but is unable to regenerate itself like cars can.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> If only more development had been put into 1980s Japanese wind-up tool technology...  https://youtu.be/ErSoOR7CqH8

  I wholeheartedly agree...

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Going on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvnhw5Hqjfs there is a battery availability indicator, but I previously didn't know how low you could drag the battery down.    
> Yes I would think so, but is unable to regenerate itself like cars can.

  These machines will always be a daily  back to base operation unless there is a suitable charge point on site at a big job. 
To my mind, an electric motor driving a hydraulic pump instead of a diesel engine makes a heck of a lot of sense especially in a small machine. Even more so given the capacity for better load sensing, better motor control and pump flow matching to suit whatever is happening at the time by using management software...after all, electric motors are pretty simple things compared to diesel engines.

----------


## woodbe

More specs on the JCB 19C-1E E-Tec mini excavator... 
Operating Weight: 1862 kg 
Max. Dig Depth: 2.819m Max. 
Dump Height: 2.818 m 
The charging time is only 2 hours with the optional 380-420V three phase  external charger, 8 hours with a 220-240V on board charger and 12 hours  with a 110V on board charger. 
Noise at the operator station is 10 dB less than the diesel version. 
The model used in this episode was the 4 battery pack 20kWh version *but  even the standard 3 battery pack version is enough for a days work*.

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## METRIX



----------


## John2b

Toyota plans for 50% of its vehicles worldwide to be electric by 2025 and aiming to be demonstrating solid state batteries next year. Solid state batteries are lighter, have higher energy density, don't have liquid electrolyte and don't burn.  *Toyota’s electric vehicle plans just got aggressive*  https://europe.autonews.com/automake...tery-next-year  https://www.slashgear.com/toyotas-el...sive-07579666/

----------


## woodbe

And the VW has released a new electric car coming to EU 2020: 
That “under €30,000” price tag VW is promoting applies to the base model  of the ID.3, which has a 45kWh battery and offers 330 kilometers, or  205 miles of range. The company declined to provide pricing information  for the two larger capacity variants of the car, which will feature  58kWh and 77kWh batteries, and will respectively offer around 420 and  550 kilometers (or 261 and 340 miles) per charge.  https://www.theverge.com/2019/9/9/20...otor-show-2019

----------


## John2b

An 81 year old mate of mine has decided that under the current economic conditions it is idiotic to have money tied up in shares, so he's purchased a Tesla 3 which will be delivered about 4 October.

----------


## Marc

So your 81 yo friend has decided to burn up the family inheritance by selling assets and buying a liability that will lose value at twice the rate of a standard car. I suppose as an action to spite, it is very effective ... or should I say efficient?

----------


## John2b

His son is chuffed to be offered his 8 year old i-MiEV electric car as an early inheritance so his son can commute to work essentially for free. That's unless I can convince him to sell it to my 89 year old mum, who wants to downsize from her Honda CR-X. She'd never have to visit a car garage again, just plug it in to the power point in her retirement unit. I drove his car about a year ago before committing to buy the Leaf sight unseen.

----------


## Marc

Hello John ... anybody there? it is not about electric cars, it is about what you said, sell shares to buy a car.
Then again, it is his money. I bought myself a boat, actually two ... but i don't call it an investment. It is a fricken liabilty  :Smilie: 
Of course if you have shares in WeWork, Nautilus or Peloton, perhap you are better off with a car.
i am thinking in buying a kite for my boat. 
Hard to find a video with more technical information and less masturbatory content, but anyway, this will do. (Saving the planet ... yea right  :Rolleyes: )  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieDx3xlfmE&t=33s 
The product http://www.kite-boat-systems.com/ind...ander-rc?id=94

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> So your 81 yo friend has decided to burn up the family inheritance by selling assets and buying a liability that will lose value at twice the rate of a standard car. I suppose as an action to spite, it is very effective ... or should I say efficient?

  I encourage my 75 year old mother every day to blast through her coinage however she sees fit. It's all about maintaining economic growth and stimulating the economy etc etc... 
Leaving a financial legacy is spectacularly overrated (not to mention quite heavily taxed). Much better to spend it all now on the prospect of a brighter future and government funded dementia care! 😏

----------


## John2b

> Hello John ... anybody there? it is not about electric cars, it is about what you said, sell shares to buy a car.

  He's been planning to buy a Nissan Leaf since I ordered mine. He thinks his shares are about to take a hit, so he buys a Tesla instead of a Nissan. If he's going to lose money anyway, he might as well have fun driving it around instead of watching its value being wiped off the stock market.

----------


## Marc

Sure, realizing an asset before it gets devalued is the right move. Usually the best policy is to convert into another asset that hold value and gives you some dividends. But at some point long term plans become less attractive and a flashy liability may not make much economic sense, but gives better satisfaction than a number on a computer.  
Don't forget to post a picture of whatever he buys  :Smilie:

----------


## Spottiswoode

You could argue the additional depreciation of the Tesla would be offset by the lower cost of power and reduced servicing costs. (I’m not going to calculate it though). Once you have enough money to live on comfortably there is no real reason to not spend a little.  
I inderstand you have a boat Marc? Doesn’t that thanks for ‘Bring Out Another Thousand’? Hardly an investment choice when you could have used the money on an asset providing income.

----------


## John2b

:What he said:  Far from being rapid depreciators, all Tesla's models are high up in the lists in Kelley's Blue Book of US car resale values, with typically ~60% resale value at 3 years. After factoring in almost zero running costs owners must be laughing all the way to the bank, being several $1000s a year better off than if they'd bought an ICE.

----------


## Bedford

*How Much Does A Tesla Actually Cost?*    https://www.motor1.com/features/313677/how-much-is-a-tesla/   *Tesla Keeps Gas Savings Pricing On U.S. Website After Germany Tells It To Stop*   https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohn.../#53e2088f675a

----------


## DavoSyd

> Far from being rapid depreciators, all Tesla's models are high up in the lists in Kelley's Blue Book of US car resale values, with typically ~60% resale value at 3 years. After factoring in almost zero running costs owners must be laughing all the way to the bank, being several $1000s a year better off than if they'd bought an ICE.

  but a Tesla has a more expensive purchase price John! you'll never recoup all of that!  
/s

----------


## John2b

Ouch!  *The cheapest and dearest cars to run in Australia*https://thenewdaily.com.au/money/you...sts-australia/

----------


## Bros

> So your 81 yo friend has decided to burn up the family inheritance by selling assets and buying a liability that will lose value at twice the rate of a standard car. I suppose as an action to spite, it is very effective ... or should I say efficient?

  Why not? If you live to be 81 then it is your money, so spend it how you like.

----------


## Whitey66

> Ouch!  *The cheapest and dearest cars to run in Australia*    https://thenewdaily.com.au/money/you...sts-australia/

  Ouch indeed. This is the fairest way to measure true car costs imho.
When checking the running costs of a V6 Commodore it lists it as $245.58 per week. I just did some sums on my 1995 VS V6 Commodore and it costs me about $55 per week and that includes $30 for fuel!
Depreciation doesn't affect my car whatsoever  :2thumbsup:

----------


## phild01

Yep, the newer the car, the greater the running costs has been my experience too.

----------


## Whitey66

> Far from being rapid depreciators, all Tesla's models are high up in the lists in Kelley's Blue Book of US car resale values, with typically ~60% resale value at 3 years. After factoring in almost zero running costs owners must be laughing all the way to the bank, being several $1000s a year better off than if they'd bought an ICE.

  Yes, but the percentage is based on a much higher purchase price so more money will be lost than with an ICE car.  Eg: $100,000 Tesla 3 years old at 60% depreciation = $40,000 dollars lost.  $20,000 ICE car 3 years old at say 50% depreciation = $10,000 lost. Smaller ICE cars don't lose 50% over 3 years either but just as a worst case scenario. You can buy over 23,000 litres of fuel for the difference in price, I doubt many normal use ICE cars would burn that much in 3 years (works out over 2 tank fills per week).
I say buy the car that suits you and don't worry what anyone else thinks, and the best car to have, is the one you own. (no payments)  :Wink:

----------


## Marc

Yes Bros, I already admitted to that. His money, good luck. 
i reacted to John's post that seemed to suggest that selling shares and buying a car was a good idea "due to the state of the market". 
It is never a good idea to justify a desire to consume, with the fallacy of calling it an "investment".
The consumer consumes (buys good or services) not to be confused with investing in an asset. The guilt of consuming one's own resources for what in the consumer's own mind is a caprice, (note I said in the consumer's own mind) is often disguised with ideas of "investment". Typical example is people's own house. Everyone calls it an "investment" yet it is a liability just like a boat or a tesla car.  
Academic I know, and everyone is king of his own domain and spends accordingly. However don't fool yourself with grand ideas of "investments". A car a boat, a holiday house, or your own home are NOT an asset. Far from it, they are all liabilities unless you trade and buy and sell them for a profit.   
As for Spotti ... mate ... read my posts properly. 
I would argue in light of John's post on the cost of an electric car, that an electric car is a far bigger liability than a petrol or diesel car. Generally speaking of course. 
John's Adam leaf ... sorry, Nissan Leaf ... would most likely be classified as a very small liability with a negligible cost, only because he, like I did, imported a second hand car as grey import at a minimal price that is outside the normal market for similar cars.
I imported a Hilux Surf from Japan with 30,000k and paid all up $14,000 and a dealer wanted to buy it off me for $30,000 back in 1999. I have now made 330,000 uneventful KM and I had an offer to buy it for $8000. This kind of transactions are not valid to analyse a market or a trend, and are therefore useless for arguing a position, be it for electric cars or for diesel cars. 
When I mention the concepts of asset and liabilities in relation to your own home most people will defend the idea with a string of intangibles, like you don't need to move, you can adapt it to your liking, you can stay in the house when you are older, you will capture all the memories from rising the family, and many others. Such very valid intangibles are however not what determines if something is an asset. A boat has equally a lot of valuable 'intangibles and could be argued to be an asset because of that, however it would be a mistake just as it is for your own home.

----------


## Bedford

> Leaving a financial legacy is spectacularly overrated (not to mention quite heavily taxed).

  Hi SBD, have you got a link to this tax on a financial legacy ?

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## METRIX



----------


## Bros

> Just don't park a diesel (or petrol) car on grass after a fast drive...

  No petrol or diesel here.

----------


## John2b

*Police Department's Tesla battery runs low on juice during high-speed chase*https://abc7news.com/police-tesla-ru...chase/5567941/

----------


## Uncle Bob

Please watch this to the end. It's summarizes the problem and solution.

----------


## Marc

If there is one electric vehicle I like it is this one. The Bollinger off road truck. Looks a lot like an old LandRover Defender, including sliding windows and aluminium body. 
Two motors (600 hp !) suspension that can lift and lower, 300 km range, 3,4 ton towing, 6m loading capacity and an impossible tailgate lock, it is as stoic as I like a truck.
It is satisfying to see that selling organic hair products entitles you to drive an unregistered and non street legal vehicle on the road in the US.  
Surprisingly the price, if the prediction is right and they never are ... is not bad. 
I suppose then when they double the range, make it street legal with airbags and seat belts, resolve the overheating issues whilst towing not just to your mother's place, double the towing capacity and add a proper tailgate lock that can be operated with wet hands, I consider it. 
It is fun to think that the challenges this cars have are no different from those experienced by the first petrol cars, that had gear sticks outside the door, brakes that did not brake, windscreens made from home window glass that would decapitate you in a crash etc etc. 
I think Bollinger is on a path I like. I will wait with baited breath.  *BASE PRICE* $100,000-$120,000 (est)  *VEHICLE LAYOUT* Front/rear-motor, 4WD, 4-pass, 4-door truck and SUV  *MOTORS* 2 x 307-hp/334-lb-ft AC electric  *TRANSMISSIONS* 2 x 2-speed automatic  *CURB WEIGHT* 4,800-5,000 lb (mfr)  *WHEELBASE* 118.8 in  *LENGTH X WIDTH X HEIGHT* 171.5-207.5 x 77.2 x 72.7 in  *0-60 MPH* 4.5 sec (mfr est)  *RANGE* 200 mile (mfr est)  *ON SALE* Early 2021       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yIChwMkpQ8&t=5s

----------


## John2b

> If there is one electric vehicle I like it is this one. The Bollinger off road truck...

  Watching the video and seeing all the CNC billet gearboxes, mounts, etc., I think they've left out a '0' in the projected price! 
Another Bollinger has an electric straddle tractor for vineyard work:  https://www.champagne-bollinger.com/en/INT/stories/stories/a-fitting-reward-2

----------


## Whitey66

Nissan Leaf $33,000 battery replacement cost - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zdtaJeYmw&t=8s 
Yes, he's a bit of a tool but the facts are there.

----------


## PhilT2

> Nissan Leaf $33,000 battery replacement cost - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zdtaJeYmw&t=8s 
> Yes, he's a bit of a tool but the facts are there.

  Doesn't come close to the attempt by a Jeep dealer to charge almost $50,000 to replace fuel pump and injectors on a diesel Cherokee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iys9HibzFME

----------


## John2b

> Nissan Leaf $33,000 battery replacement cost - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zdtaJeYmw&t=8s 
> Yes, he's a bit of a tool but the facts are there.

  He's a bit of a fact deficient tool as it turns out. The official Nissan Australia retail replacement price as of 1st of April 2019 for an out of warranty battery is AU$9,990 plus fitting. That's about two year's worth of petrol or diesel. It would be half of this amount if Australian laws permitted exportation of the old lithium battery for recycling.

----------


## phild01

What size is the battery for the Leaf.  Just wanted to compare that cost with a Lifepo4 battery.

----------


## PhilT2

> He's a bit of a fact deficient tool as it turns out. The official Nissan Australia retail replacement price as of 1st of April 2019 for an out of warranty battery is AU$9,990 plus fitting. That's about two year's worth of petrol or diesel. It would be half of this amount if Australian laws permitted exportation of the old lithium battery for recycling.

  About 2 mins in Cadogan shows the quote given to the Leaf owner (on dealers letterhead) so that part of the story appears genuine. Nissan may have no control over what prices the dealerships charge. Same with the Jeep story, Cadogan shows the quote from the dealer where the injectors are listed at $2500 ea. Someone in the comments says they retail fro $79 ea elsewhere. Car dealerships have never been afraid to put a bit of a markup on their spare parts.

----------


## Marc

How revealing that form always supersedes content in the lefty mind. 
Electric car = save the planet = defend at all cost.  Will the defenders of electric car enlist Greta Thunberg for a little pep talk? 
Cadogan tells it as it is. Robbing the car owner that is stuck with buying from a monopoly is perfectly legal, be it a nissan or a jeep. There is no rebate for stupidity.

----------


## phild01

I looked it up and the Leaf battery is 40kWh.  Seems the battery price has dropped dramatically from $US1000/kWh 9 years ago to around $US200/kWh in 2018. That would now be, I guess around $A300/kWh. Maybe that Nissan dealer conveniently quoted an original battery price when the car was first produced with a 24kWh battery. As for range, battery price drops have given a boost to what size battery is now going into the ev cars, the new Leaf has 62kWh battery. The invoice Cadogan showed was dated 12/02/19, how much of a car expert is Cadogan that he could not verify or compare the real battery cost.  A tool he does seem to be!

----------


## Marc

So ... what is it going to cost to replace the 120KW battery in "my" Bollinger B2?

----------


## John2b

The date of the quotation is 12/02/19. The date of the podcast is 30/09/19. Plenty of time for fact checking before broadcasting defamatory remarks, but the facts apparently don't fit Codogan's ideological viewpoint.

----------


## phild01

> The date of the quotation is 12/02/19. The date of the podcast is 30/09/19. Plenty of time for fact checking before broadcasting defamatory remarks, but the facts apparently don't fit Codogan's ideological viewpoint.

  I did notice that and added same to my earlier post.

----------


## PhilT2

> I looked it up and the Leaf battery is 40kWh.  Seems the battery price has dropped dramatically from $US1000/kWh 9 years ago to around $US200/kWh in 2018. That would now be, I guess around $A300/kWh. Maybe that Nissan dealer conveniently quoted an original battery price when the car was first produced with a 24kWh battery. As for range, battery price drops have given a boost to what size battery is now going into the ev cars, the new Leaf has 62kWh battery. The invoice Cadogan showed was dated 12/02/19, how much of a car expert is Cadogan that he could not verify or compare the real battery cost.  A tool he does seem to be!

  Not having a go at you, just don't quite get your point. The Leaf owner needed a battery back in 12/2 and was quoted a price. Cadogan doesn't tell the story until now. How does that change the owners situation? Have nissan dealers actually changed their prices?

----------


## phild01

> Not having a go at you, just don't quite get your point. The Leaf owner needed a battery back in 12/2 and was quoted a price. Cadogan doesn't tell the story until now. How does that change the owners situation? Have nissan dealers actually changed their prices?

  Not sure I am getting your point either  :Smilie:  John2b pointed out that the battery for his Leaf is $10,000. But when the car was originally released it seems the battery replacement cost was near enough to what the Nissan dealer wants to charge now (12/02/19). I find it interesting that the replacement cost reflects back long gone rather than current value. John2b says it is available for $10,000 (seems consistent with current battery pricing), surely we can expect Cadogan to find this out too and that would be a big help to that owner.

----------


## John2b

Generation one Nissan Leafs were sold in Australia with a 5 year / 100,000km battery performance warranty. From the claims in the podcast this battery degradation was both atypical and warrantable. Other Leaf owners have routinely had their battery replaced under warranty for the same degradation. It is the subject of a thread on the Australian Nissan Leaf Owners' forum.

----------


## METRIX

> Nissan Leaf $33,000 battery replacement cost - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_zdtaJeYmw&t=8s 
> Yes, he's a bit of a tool but the facts are there.

  He is just a tool, I used to watch him but gave up as I have better things to do than listen to this idiot. 
The problem with the Leaf battery is there is no active cooling of the cells as Nissan cheeped out on the design, this has been linked back to the failures in the packs, I believe the latest version also has no active cooling, obviously they haven't learnt from their mistakes. 
Other manufacturers have active cooling and haven't had battery problems line Nissan.

----------


## PhilT2

> Not sure I am getting your point either  John2b pointed out that the battery for his Leaf is $10,000. But when the car was originally released it seems the battery replacement cost was near enough to what the Nissan dealer wants to charge now (12/02/19). I find it interesting that the replacement cost reflects back long gone rather than current value. John2b says it is available for $10,000 (seems consistent with current battery pricing), surely we can expect Cadogan to find this out too and that would be a big help to that owner.

  What John can get a battery for now in his area is not much use to a leaf owner who needed one back in Feb in the ACT. Cadogan points out that the local dealer tried to overcharge the customer at that time in that area and backs up his claim with the written quote as proof. Evidence that the battery is available cheaper in other areas months later does not get that dealer off the hook. Individual dealers can set their own prices and I think it's a good thing that Cadogan exposes this one. We don't know the end of the story; hopefully the leaf owner found a dealer with better pricing.

----------


## phild01

> WEvidence that the battery is available cheaper in other areas months later does not get that dealer off the hook. Individual dealers can set their own prices and I think it's a good thing that Cadogan exposes this one.

  Yes that is right but with temerity he had more concern about drawing conclusions based on a single invoice, the conclusions consequently lacked validity.

----------


## METRIX



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## METRIX



----------


## John2b

The new model Nissan Leaf battery warranty is 8 years or 160,000km (double that of the new Tesla 3), so its possible to infer they don't think the battery pack design is a problem. Nissan has intimate knowledge of the fleet performance of its batteries in actual use through Connected Drive which sends data from the car systems back to Nissan servers.

----------


## John2b

Statement from Nissan about the Carlson Leaf featured in the podcast:  The first generation LEAF with a 24kWh battery was sold in Australia between 2012 to 2016. The manufacturer's warranty for this vehicle was three years/100,000km and the battery warranty was five years/100,000km. There have been an extremely low number of warranty claims. Beyond the manufacturers warranty period, Nissan has introduced a subsidised battery exchange program for vehicles sold by its Australian dealers. Nissan Australia will exchange a working 24kWh battery, with a state of health of 8 bars or less, with a new 24kWh battery for $9,990 plus the cost of fitment. The new Nissan LEAF, which was launched in Australia this year, has a larger 40kWh battery, and is covered by an 8 year/160,000km battery warranty. Nissan Australia has contacted Mr Carlson and are working directly with him to address his concerns.

----------


## phild01

> The new Nissan LEAF, which was launched in Australia this year, has a larger 40kWh battery, and is covered by an 8 year/160,000km battery warranty. .

  How come we don't get the 62kWh one, I would think of any country we would need the extra range! A fairly dismal and hopeful 226 miles!

----------


## John2b

> How come we don't get the 62kWh one, I would think of any country we would need the extra range! A fairly dismal and hopeful 226 miles!

   Could be that although Nissan has sold nearly ½ million Leafs worldwide, only a few hundred were sold in Australia, putting us at the bottom of the pecking order for high demand versions.

----------


## UseByDate

Batteries can only get better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJrsB0MJMsM

----------


## UseByDate

> Statement from Nissan about the Carlson Leaf featured in the podcast:  The first generation LEAF with a 24kWh battery was sold in Australia between 2012 to 2016. The manufacturer's warranty for this vehicle was three years/100,000km and the battery warranty was five years/100,000km. There have been an extremely low number of warranty claims. Beyond the manufacturers warranty period, Nissan has introduced a subsidised battery exchange program for vehicles sold by its Australian dealers. Nissan Australia will exchange a working 24kWh battery, with a state of health of 8 bars or less, with a new 24kWh battery for $9,990 plus the cost of fitment. The new Nissan LEAF, which was launched in Australia this year, has a larger 40kWh battery, and is covered by an 8 year/160,000km battery warranty. Nissan Australia has contacted Mr Carlson and are working directly with him to address his concerns.

  If you live in Japan you can get a refabricated pack for A$4000. https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissa...ement-program/

----------


## Whitey66

> Statement from Nissan about the Carlson Leaf featured in the podcast:  The first generation LEAF with a 24kWh battery was sold in Australia between 2012 to 2016. The manufacturer's warranty for this vehicle was three years/100,000km and the battery warranty was five years/100,000km. There have been an extremely low number of warranty claims. Beyond the manufacturer’s warranty period, Nissan has introduced a subsidised battery exchange program for vehicles sold by its Australian dealers. Nissan Australia will exchange a working 24kWh battery, with a state of health of 8 bars or less, with a new 24kWh battery for $9,990 plus the cost of fitment. The new Nissan LEAF, which was launched in Australia this year, has a larger 40kWh battery, and is covered by an 8 year/160,000km battery warranty. Nissan Australia has contacted Mr Carlson and are working directly with him to address his concerns.

  Well how much do you pay if your old 24kWh battery is not working ?

----------


## DavoSyd

> Well how much do you pay if your old 24kWh battery is not working ?

   

> $750 for labor and $29,600 for the battery plus 10 percent GST.

   
(but that's only if you ignore it for several years and allow the warranty to expire...)

----------


## DavoSyd

> Car *st*ealerships have never been afraid to put a bit of a markup on their spare parts.

  *fixed

----------


## John2b

> Well how much do you pay if your old 24kWh battery is not working ?

  It's years before I will need to replace the battery and I may have already replaced the Leaf before then for a small electric 4WD if such a thing becomes available. Toyota sold a Rav4 EV in the US for several years from the late 1990s, but it is not on the SEVs list and cannot be imported into Australia. 
There are aftermarket high performance batteries for the Nissan Leaf under development or already available in New Zealand, the USA and Europe. There are "extender" batteries as well about to come to market as the Leaf has plenty of space for an additional 20kWh pack where the fuel tank usually is, plus another 20kWh one in the bottom of the boot where the spare wheel normally is. The life of a battery pack can be extended if one or more of the 96 cells has failed prematurely and there is a roaring trade in rebuilding batteries in New Zealand and possibly elsewhere. 
Given that the price of replacement batteries in Japan and the USA is about half the current list price in Australia, I expect that Australian prices will fall closer to overseas parity over time. So when if and when it comes to servicing or changing the battery I could be spoiled for choice and do not expect the price to be prohibitive. Nissan Leafs are a well made car that are durable in part due to the lack of destructive vibrations from an ICE and it will probably be worthwhile replacing the battery at least once, possibly with a range extending upgraded capacity as is happening in other markets.

----------


## UseByDate

*About That $33k Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement...*  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_6gpx10QtM

----------


## METRIX

> *About That $33k Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement...*  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_6gpx10QtM

  
Yep, exactly why you don't buy Nissan, the only two cars they ever produced that were any good are the 4.2 Patrol and the Skyline, the rest of their cars have always been and are still rubbish.

----------


## Bloss

For those reading this thread this might be of interest, or not . . . https://evfest.aeva.asn.au

----------


## Spottiswoode

> How come we don't get the 62kWh one, I would think of any country we would need the extra range! A fairly dismal and hopeful 226 miles!

   For the city based target market that range is sufficient for 99% of the driving done. Giving us the option would probably result in too many buyers honking they need that range and now can’t afford he higher price.

----------


## phild01

> For the city based target market that range is sufficient for 99% of the driving done. Giving us the option would probably result in too many buyers honking they need that range and now can’t afford he higher price.

  Why have recharging stations outside the city if these things are aimed at the city dweller only! I think most people would want a car that goes the distance for their intended holidays and will want SUV's with at least 120kWh of battery power to do it. Still a way to go.

----------


## fredgassit

Metrix, 
I have a 1995 Nissan MIcra hatchback.  
Had it from new and it's done 201,000 kms. And nothing, repeat nothing, has gone wrong in 24 years. 
I, and my brother, have had Hondas and Mazdas.  The Micra is the most reliable car I've ever had. Built like a tank, a great engine and averaging about 58 mpg (on the old scale).  Great fun to drive and small enough to always find a free parking space in the city. 
I loooove it.

----------


## METRIX

> Metrix, 
> I have a 1995 Nissan MIcra hatchback.  
> Had it from new and it's done 201,000 kms. And nothing, repeat nothing, has gone wrong in 24 years. 
> I, and my brother, have had Hondas and Mazdas.  The Micra is the most reliable car I've ever had. Built like a tank, a great engine and averaging about 58 mpg (on the old scale).  Great fun to drive and small enough to always find a free parking space in the city. 
> I loooove it.

  You must have got a good one,
My mate had a maxima always had problems,  
2 mates had navara always in the shop being fixed, I had navara got rid of it at 60,000 as it was always playing up combo of electric and mechanical problems

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Why have recharging stations outside the city if these things are aimed at the city dweller only! I think most people would want a car that goes the distance for their intended holidays and will want SUV's with at least 120kWh of battery power to do it. Still a way to go.

  Putting charging stations outside the city is getting in early for when there are more electric vehicles around.  
I think ‘we’ get carried away with buying a vehicle for the 5% of trips we take. Carting around twice the battery capacity you normally need just adds additional weight. Why not hire a vehicle with a longer range for those long trips? 
At this point in time most people have two vehicles. Having an electric commuter makes sense to compliment a bigger petrol/diesel vehicle. We have two vehicles and in reality only one of them does anything over 250km range in a trip. I suspect many are in the same boat.

----------


## Uncle Bob

> Yep, exactly why you don't buy Nissan, the only two cars they ever produced that were any good are the 4.2 Patrol and the Skyline, the rest of their cars have always been and are still rubbish.

  I'm guessing you haven't been around too long. Nissan made great cars under the Datsun brand and in my opinion still do under the Nissan brand.

----------


## phild01

The Datsun 1600 was pretty good.

----------


## johnc

We expect our next changeover will be electric, it is the way the market is moving we probably will not be changing for about five years and most likely cost of the car and running costs will make electric the most attractive option.

----------


## johnc

> The Datsun 1600 was pretty good.

  The 1500 was better, we had a 180B, enough said, not the worst car in the world, that accolade went to the 200B

----------


## John2b

> ...we had a 180B, enough said, not the worst car in the world, that accolade went to the 200B

  Not arguing but what about the 120Y? I could never work out Y anyone would buy one - six inch drum brakes at the front, bits of leather strap and sticky tape holding the parking brake cables together, seat cloth as thick as disposable paper towels, and that's just the best bits...

----------


## John2b

> I'm guessing you haven't been around too long. Nissan made great cars under the Datsun brand and in my opinion still do under the Nissan brand.

  Best we forget about Sunny, the 1200 replacement, and Stanza, the 1600 replacement, and EVERY version of the Pulsar / EXA, at least pre the current century, after which I have no knowledge.

----------


## Bedford

> Not arguing but what about the 120Y? I could never work out Y anyone would buy one - six inch drum brakes at the front,

  Got a link to the six inch drum brakes John?

----------


## Marc

It would be easy to enumerate the long list of garbage cars, served to the consumer who has systematically gobbled up the advertising lies, cons, tricks and smoke and mirror illusions that kept the manufacturers going whilst the government looked the other way. Is there an explanation for the Jeep Cherokee or the Land Rover Discovery?  
Electric cars are no different, only this time instead of fascion and blim blim, they have joined the bandwagon of the "save the planet" folks. 
There is already a long list of crap hybrid and electric cars, sold only because they have a big battery. In the not too distant future the same question will be asked ... "How could people be so blind as to buy this pile of crap?" 
Yes, good affordable electric cars will be available just as other alternatives yet to be built. 
I for one don't think electric motors have any attraction in Australia, beyond the obtuse doctrinal push, considering how far behind we are in the power production market, and the cost of electricity. 
It is good for Europe with their minuscule size cities where everything is close by, the electricity costs a fraction of ours and the governments are willing to spend in public infrastructure several times what we can only dream of spending.   
We will likely suffer a "too little too late" situation or some other idiotic decision like Malcolm Turnbull yellow submarine. 
And sadly most of the bad decisions are taken to do some fashionable virtue signalling and hoodwink the voters of the left confession. Look at mee look at meee, I am oh so green and virtuous, vote for meeee ...

----------


## Uncle Bob

I owned a Sunny and it was a good car. Great on gas and went well. I never had any problem with it. I never owned a 120Y but a mate did. I've never known a 1200cc car that could do 100 miles an hour with 5 people in it. And don't forget the 240Z, got to be one of the best (looking) cars ever built.

----------


## phild01

:Arrow Up:  Agree with 240Z, still looks great. We used to call the 120Y a vacuum cleaner, that's what it looked like.

----------


## John2b

> Got a link to the six inch drum brakes John?

  A metaphorical observation doesn't need a link. The 120Y was a car with tiny drum brakes on the front which anaesthetised the steering when applied. If you never drove a 120Y you probably wouldn't be able to appreciate just how extraordinarily @@@@@ they were, unless of course experience was limited to equally terrible vehicles.

----------


## Bedford

> A metaphorical observation doesn't need a link. The 120Y was a car with tiny drum brakes on the front which anaesthetised the steering when applied. If you never drove a 120Y you probably wouldn't be able to appreciate just how extraordinarily @@@@@ they were, unless of course experience was limited to equally terrible vehicles.

  Ok, so it wasn't true that Datsun 120Y's had six inch drum brakes. 
Is it true that Datsun 120Y's had,   

> bits of leather strap and sticky tape holding the parking brake cables  together,

  Or did you just make that up also?

----------


## Marc

If I lived on an island with 3 cars and 100k of road I wouldn't even bother with brakes. A boat anchor and a rope would bring me to a stop.  :Smilie:

----------


## DavoSyd

> Or did you just make that up also?

  take a wiiiiiild guess Bedford!  :Doh:

----------


## John2b

> Is it true that Datsun 120Y's had,   Or did you just make that up also?

  It's true the 120Y had whopping big 8" drum brakes on the front with smaller ones on the rear. The brakes were woefully inadequate even for the tiny 1200cc engine. 
I adjusted the brakes on my sister's 120Y once in the 1970s and my very clear recollection is that the parking brake equaliser was a leather or rubber strap and adhesive tape was use as part of its construction. As I was studying mechanical engineering and reading at least one international  journal of automotive engineering at the time, I quite clearly remember being horrified by the 120Y's brakes, amongst other things. 
Perhaps you should start a thread on the 120Y Bedford.

----------


## Spottiswoode

https://youtu.be/f7MzFfuNOtY
this is interesting. Seems to be fairly sciencey not sensationalist. Hydrogen, while effective in quick refilling and potentially better for the environment than ICE aren’t all that efficient.

----------


## Bedford

> Originally Posted by *John2b*  six inch drum brakes at the front,

   

> Originally Posted by *John2b*    tiny drum brakes on the front.

   

> whopping big 8" drum brakes on the front

   

> Originally Posted by *Bedford*  Or did you just make that up also?

   

> take a wiiiiiild guess Bedford!

   No need to guess, you only have to wait a little for the whopping big ones...   

> and my very  clear recollection is that the parking brake equaliser was a leather or  rubber strap and adhesive tape was use as part of its construction.

   

> Originally Posted by *John2b*  bits of leather strap and sticky tape holding the parking brake cables  together,

  You do realise that the "leather/ rubber/ adhesive/ sticky tape, construction" equaliser needs to be flexible for the cables to be able to equalise, if it was rigid it wouldn't equalise. :Doh:      
All of which has nothing to do with the on road performance, (or lack of,) of the service brakes.

----------


## DavoSyd

> No need to guess, you only have to wait a little for the whopping big ones....

  um, yeah, nah, wot? 
keep on trolling! one day you might actually be good at it...

----------


## Bedford

> um, yeah, nah, wot? 
> keep on trolling! one day you might actually be good at it...

  Go back and hide in the shadows Davo, you're adding nothing as usual, and making the joint look untidy.

----------


## Whitey66

> Not arguing but what about the 120Y? I could never work out Y anyone would buy one - six inch drum brakes at the front, bits of leather strap and sticky tape holding the parking brake cables together, seat cloth as thick as disposable paper towels, and that's just the best bits...

   The 120Y's had disc brakes on the front and drums on the rear.
If the one you drove had drums on the front you must have been driving it backwards, did it have 4 reverse gears and only one forward? That would explain the poor steering you speak of  :Smilie:  .
I worked on many of these for years and have never seen one with drums on the front, but would be happy to be proven wrong. The disc brakes were quite adequate for the size and weight of the car.
The only issues we ever had with them was a lack of engine power after fitting an air conditioner kit. The old style A/C compressors really sucked the power out of that poor little 1.2 litre engine.
Rust was also a big problem as it was with many cars of the era with the lack of proper metal protection and rust proofing.

----------


## DavoSyd

> you're adding nothing as usual, and making the joint look untidy.

  classic irony.

----------


## John2b

120Y front drum shoe set: 
https://abouttimespares.com.au/TimeSpares/ShowParts/30194/Datsun-120Y-front-drum-brake-shoe-set-new-old-stock-(genuine)-   
Parking brake cable equaliser that doesn't use the "leather/ rubber/ adhesive/ sticky tape, construction"

----------


## Marc

1973 ...  :Shock: 
You should have clarified we were talking vintage cars!
My 1927 Buick also had drum brakes all around, and they acted on the outside of the drum!  :Smilie:

----------


## Uncle Bob

Maybe we can get this thread back on track?  :Smilie:

----------


## DavoSyd

> maybe we can get this thread back on track?

  ok

----------


## Whitey66

> 120Y front drum shoe set: 
> https://abouttimespares.com.au/TimeSpares/ShowParts/30194/Datsun-120Y-front-drum-brake-shoe-set-new-old-stock-(genuine)-   
> Parking brake cable equaliser that doesn't use the "leather/ rubber/ adhesive/ sticky tape, construction"

  Maybe there is a reason they still haven't sold these after 46 odd years, could it be that no 120Y's sold in Australia had front drum brakes fitted??
Here is a link to one of Australia's largest brake companies website that states front discs only as standard - https://www.bendix.com.au/manufactur...1974-1979-b210
Here is another link showing when 120Y's were sold in Australia - https://www.carsguide.com.au/datsun/120y/price
Your link has dates of 1973 to 1976 instead of 1974 to 1979 when these cars were sold here. It's possible that these shoes were for a different or earlier built overseas model that we didn't get here, and were ordered in by Datsun by mistake? 
Edit: Looks like 1973 had disc fronts too -   
Edit 2 : Your linked part number is for rear axle not front - https://www.fitinpart.sg/index.php?r...roduct_id=4033

----------


## Uncle Bob

The oil companies apparently leak that much became it's cheaper to leak it than fix the leaks.

----------


## DavoSyd

despite you being on my 'ignore list' Marc, i was interested to see how you are going these days - so i unhid your post.  
however, i remain unsurprised that you continue to staunchly double (triple) down on your tightly clutched rhetoric - especially in the face of all the ever-growing and undeniable evidence that you are wrong. 
i truly hope that you are just putting this facade on for the benefit of this, and only this, forum, but if not -  then i truly hope your sphere of influence is as small as possible.

----------


## DavoSyd

> The oil companies apparently leak that much became it's cheaper to leak it than fix the leaks.

  gotta keep the cash coming in to pay off the thinktanks!

----------


## Marc

Idiocy is free and painless. 
Thinking and reaching sensible conclusions away from "mainstream" groupthink requires some pain and is deprived from the benefit of pretend virtue and pretend caring for ( Inster fad of the day here)
Kumbaya and chanting provides soothing effects to the braindead masses. 
Each to it's own.   *Symptoms of Groupthink*  *1. Illusions of Invulnerability*  The group begins to believe it’s own hype and starts to think it always makes the right decisions – they can do no wrong. *2. Rationalization of Warnings*  The group convinces itself that despite evidence or warnings to the contrary it is making the right decision. The group creates rationalizations such as, “We know there is contrary opinion to this decision but we’ve been right before in the face of negativity and we’ll we right this time too”. *3. Complacency*  After reaping the rewards of making many correct decisions the group begins to overlook the negatives. Think how derivative models were never run showing what would happen to a banks financial position if house prices began to fall in the years leading up to 2007. *4. Stereotyping*  Those who are opposed to the group are pigeonholed as heretics, non-believers, or just plain stupid. *5. Loyalty Pressure*  Direct pressure is place on any team member who raises a contrary opinion, with typically the entire group openly calling the team member disloyal or fickle. *6. Self-Censorship*  Individuals refrain from airing any private concerns they may have for fear for ridicule, for example, if you are in a group with 10 clever people who all agree with each other, then you begin to question if you might look like a fool for raising your concern – perhaps you a just being stupid. *7. Illusion of Unanimity * If asked, “does everyone agree with this decision?”, and nobody speaks up, then the decision is understood to have been made unanimously. In essence, silence is regarded as compliance.  *. Mind-guards*  The group contains self-appointed members who protect the group from conflicting opinions from both inside and outside of the group.  PS  Your beloved The Guardian is well aware of groupthink and exploits the lefty trendy by appearing to  legitimize their bubble thought.  I heard that they are going to add an envelop with superglue to their sunday edition.
Don't forget to buy yours this week.    *Eppur si muove*

----------


## DavoSyd

> Thinking and reaching sensible conclusions away from "mainstream" groupthink requires some pain .

  yes, you should try it sometime, starting from right now would probably be a good idea.

----------


## DavoSyd

@John2b - your inbox is not accepting replies

----------


## chrisp

Marc, 
You forgot to mention ‘vested interests’, you know, where individuals or companies have trouble coming to an unbiased or sensible position due to being financially committed to the old ways of doing things. i.e. they subconsciously let their wallet or bank account do their ‘thinking’ as they have investments in, or dependent upon, existing outdated technologies.

----------


## DavoSyd

so - posts about petrol companies are 'off topic' for an electric cars thread? 
have the mods even read the first post of this thread:   

> Why do people buy electric cars?
> "Because they are idiots" would be my comment, but no, let's be honest, they deep down believe that they have a moral obligation towards "the environment".

  ergo answering *why people would buy electric* cars is on topic, as are posts about immoral activities towards the environment by petrol producers...

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## Bedford

> @John2b - your inbox is not accepting replies

  Since the diversion backfired maybe he's got you on ignore. 
You could try these,

----------


## Marc

> Marc, 
> You forgot to mention ‘vested interests’, you know, where individuals or companies have trouble coming to an unbiased or sensible position due to being financially committed to the old ways of doing things. i.e. they subconsciously let their wallet or bank account do their ‘thinking’ as they have investments in, or dependent upon, existing outdated technologies.

  Sure thing, but not relevant to the phenomenon of group thinking. Companies exist for the sole purpose of making money. There are no other reasons for companies to exist and whoever tells you otherwise is lying.
A company learns to make money in a particular way, works itself in the market and will stay there for the time it remains profitable. Companies don't have "vested" interest, they have plain good old interest. 
Changes do not occur for ethic or moral principles. When the market presents a new opportunity, if the consumer has developed a particular preference due to real or percieved ethics, the company will walk into that market announcing it as a moral decision yet it is the morality of the consumer that is being served not the other way around. 
Plastic bags is a classic example. Pretend ban, in practice replaced free bags for 15c bags, profitable ... at the same time flood the landfill with bags that are 10 times thicker, and I am not even talking about those plastic hessian bags that would resist half a dozen cats fighting inside them. 
Oh but the consumer is so happy! We are so environmentally conscious! Lets dance and sing Kumbaya.  
Groupthink is not new. All organised religions survive using groupthink and associated repressive strategies. 
The left of politics despite championing the record of killing over 100 million people, still exists with the aid of group thinking and resounding ignorance. Groupthink keeps dictators in power and so on and so forth. 
As for electric cars, the consumer believes that CO2 is baaaad. So manufacturers try to serve this pretend moral decision of the reduced "carbon" footprint, and tell you that it is soooo gooood for the environment since it is zero emissions. 
Of course nothing is zero CO2 emissions and every industrial activity pollutes with a miriad of other real pollutants let alone the good old harmless CO2.
So it is just a way to move the pollution a bit further downstream and out of sight.  
Just like when you flush the toilet. 
Where does it go?
O when you recycle all that plastic stuff. Where does it go? Since we are so clever that we don't do anything anymore, it gets exported to whoever charges cheaper. In fact lately they found an even cheaper way to dispose of plastic. Pretend to go to China or Indonesia and half way there, dump it overboard. 
It is governments bankrupt morality and sheer incompetence that provides companies the opportunity to do the wrong think in a perfectly legal way. 
Batteries recycling anyone?

----------


## Marc

> Since the diversion backfired maybe he's got you on ignore. 
> You could try these,

  I like this better  :Smilie:   https://youtu.be/lZkTyRc728E

----------


## phild01

Hope the focus of the thread being 'electric cars'!
 My interest here is development of new technology batteries that make them viable for everyone's use. I'd go electric in a heartbeat if only the fuel supply was as convenient and available as for an ICE vehicle. That means lighter and higher capacity batteries and an abundant electricity supply,  problematic if  the activists have their way.

----------


## Bedford

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_float

----------


## chrisp

> Hope the focus of the thread being 'electric cars'!
>  My interest here is development of new technology batteries that make them viable for everyone's use. I'd go electric in a heartbeat if only the fuel supply was as convenient and available as for an ICE vehicle. That means lighter and higher capacity batteries and an abundant electricity supply,  problematic if  the activists have their way.

  That’s an interesting perspective. Quite a while ago, I used to look after a fleet of electric vehicles, and I was able to drive a car home for testing or checking of the car itself or it’s data acquisition systems. My perception was that the ‘fuel supply’ was much more convenient with an electric car than an ICE car.  Simply drive home and plug it in. It was invariably full for the next drive - no worries about looking for a fuel station.

----------


## Bedford

> Thats an interesting perspective. Quite a while ago, I used to look after a fleet of electric vehicles, and I was able to drive a car home for testing or checking of the car itself or its data acquisition systems. My perception was that the fuel supply was much more convenient with an electric car than an ICE car.  Simply drive home and plug it in. It was invariably full for the next drive - no worries about looking for a fuel station.

  What was the distance between where you   

> used to look after a fleet of electric vehicles

  and home?

----------


## chrisp

Bedford, 
I didn’t have to travel very far, about 10 km to, and 10km back. It was my typical daily work drive. The point is that I’d do the same in an ICE car too.  
Phild01 was raising the issue of fuel supply convenience. I was just offering the view as someone who has used both types of cars (electric and ICE) that my perception was that electric was much more convenient to ‘fuel’. There are a lot more power outlets than there are petrol bowsers!

----------


## phild01

> My perception was that the ‘fuel supply’ was much more convenient with an electric car than an ICE car.  Simply drive home and plug it in. It was invariably full for the next drive - no worries about looking for a fuel station.

  It's all about range and power. The current crop of cars are a bit toy like in what they offer. People want something bigger that can do the trip away. With electric cars it is just too bad if you forget to plug it in before leaving, or wondering  somewhere to refuel on the way, and when you have that part sorted it's a matter of planning the refuel around meal times because it takes so long to charge back up. I can tow a van close to 500kms without worrying about a refuelling location. Ten minutes later the car is ready for another 500k's.
And there is the problem of having enough grid supply to refuel an electric car if ever every car is electric. What solution is at hand for the supply of electricity if so! Someone pointed out about hiring an ICE vehicle for trips away, I think you would find too many people do not like that idea.  Then if most cars are electric then the cost of an ICE vehicle will be prohibitive for that function.  The only solution lies in better lighter batteries of far greater capacity and an abundance of electricity.

----------


## Marc

Unless a new battery is invented that can cope with that type of use you describe, the only other solution is a swap battery system.
Feasible but will require easy access to the battery bank, quick tool free connections and a universal method common to all cars, not to mention a distribution network with batteries in all petrol stations. 
Like I said, feasible but not easy.

----------


## Bedford

> There are a lot more power outlets than there are petrol bowsers!

  Publicly available, or do you have to knock on doors with a six pack and an extension lead?

----------


## chrisp

> Publicly available, or do you have to knock on doors with a six pack and an extension lead?

  I never had any trouble accessing a power outlet and I never had to knock on a strangers door. The range of electric cars would do my typical travel for a week or so between recharges. However, recharging was so convenient, it was very easy to just keep it fully charge ‘just in case’. 
I do understand that some people do travel a long distance to work, and some may need to tow a large trailer. However, for most city (and probably urban) dwellers, an electric vehicle would offer sufficient range for the bulk of their travel. 
Even people who’s needs are not able to be satisfied with current electric vehicles ought to be encouraging the uptake of electric vehicles by those EVs suit to take pressure off the dwindling fossil fuel supplies and the enviable pressure that will come to reduce our fossil fuel usage overall to have any hope of meeting our CO2 abatement commitments.

----------


## Bedford

> Even people whos needs are not able to be satisfied with current electric vehicles ought to be encouraging the uptake of electric vehicles by those EVs suit to take pressure off the dwindling fossil fuel supplies and the enviable pressure that will come to reduce our fossil fuel usage overall to have any hope of meeting our CO2 abatement commitments.

  So why haven't you got an electric vehicle after all this time?

----------


## phild01

Chrisp, your view that an ev suits most needs fails to take into account how people like their transport needs satisfied.  Those city dwellers can use public transport instead, they likely live close to it and the ev does little for their need.  In the suburbs people's needs are diverse and an ev won't satisfy it fully atm. This is what you are missing, you are ignoring needs where the ev fails them in terms of today's technology.  As I say, renting a vehicle for the long haul is ridiculous. In a world where ev's dominate, it won't even be cost effective to manufacture ice vehicles.
Anyone who says we should be driving ev's should be providing practical solutions how huge quantities of electricity can be supplied, day and night, for distance travel and interstate haulage in an ev world. Not solutions for the few but for a fully functional ev world.

----------


## chrisp

> So why haven't you got an electric vehicle after all this time?

  I prioritise my expenditure to where I see the most benefit. I don’t do much distance in my car, so replacing it isn’t a priority. Besides, cars are very poor investments. 
However, at the moment I’m analysing our household energy usage and expenditure. I suspect that buying more solar panels would have a much more impact on our total energy costs (I’ve got our electricity costs down to zero, and we are ‘net generators’ according to our supplier). So I’m now considering replacing our gas central heater with more reverse cycle air conditioners (to be used as heaters in place of the central heating) and adding yet more solar panels to cover the energy previous supplied by gas. Not only would extra solar benefit my pocket, it’ll benefit everyone as overall we’ll be using less fossil-fuel generated energy and helping the country reduce its greenhouse emissions. 
Win-win. Simple!

----------


## chrisp

> Chrisp, your view that an ev suits most needs fails to take into account how people like their transport needs satisfied.  Those city dwellers can use public transport instead, they likely live close to it and the ev does little for their need.  In the suburbs people's needs are diverse and an ev won't satisfy it fully atm. This is what you are missing, you are ignoring needs where the ev fails them in terms of today's technology.  As I say, renting a vehicle for the long haul is ridiculous. In a world where ev's dominate, it won't even be cost effective to manufacture ice vehicles.
> Anyone who says we should be driving ev's should be providing practical solutions how huge quantities of electricity can be supplied, day and night, for distance travel and interstate haulage in an ev world. Not solutions for the few but for a fully functional ev world.

  I don’t understand the ‘all or nothing’ approach. Not every car needs to cover every possible use. 
The approximate distribution of cars per household is   
(graph from https://profile.id.com.au/australia/car-ownership) 
As a simple example, it is quite feasible that some (or, I dare say, most) of the multi-car households could have an electric car as part of their fleet and it would have very little impact on the versatility of their automotive activities. But it would make significant headway in to transitioning the country’s fleet. 
With regards to the technical challenges that are an impediment to the large scale uptake of cars, have you thought about the technical challenges we’d face if we were to rely on fossil fuels to power our automotive fleet? I wouldn’t be relying on the continued fossil fuels past the next five decades. Whereas I’d be confident that supply of electricity will be abundant.

----------


## phild01

I hope for solutions that enable ev for everyone but too far off for me to see it happen. The notion of having ev and ice sharing will only result in high costs of ownership.  Fewer petrol stations chasing a profit and vehicle manufacturing costs rising exponentially due to diminishing production. Still no answer to the way we will manage to have an abundance of electricity needed to keep the energy hungry world working so we can still have food and freight deliveries and transport needs satisfied. Hopefully then we will have a sensible path to an ev world. 
Personally my views have nothing to do with saving the planet, I just see electric motors as being a superior form of mobility.  At the moment, batteries as good as they are, are lacking for ev application. 
As for the all or nothing approach,  the ev brigade should start looking at the obstacles and have practical aims in their endeavours. At the moment it is all a bit blind.

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## METRIX

Was reading an article in regards to the Hornsdale power reserve battery in Adelaide. 
All the hoo har and scare tactics from irrelevant parties when the battery was discussed saying it was going to be a big waste of money and wouldn't do anything to help with outages etc. 
Initial cost was $91 million to build, in the first 6 months of operation is has earned $13million in revenue, $10.75Million of that was in energy sales and grid stabilisation services. 
They have estimated it has already saved the Adelaide Gov't $33M in due to failing / ageing / overloaded equipment. 
Nobody from the oppositions to this facility talk about this now, wny ? because it's actually working and is doing the job it was sold to do. 
It was made out like it was going to be the end of the world when it was switched on, do the irrelevant opposition  talk about how within weeks of implementation the coal-fired You-Lang power station tripped and went offline and the battery was able to deliver 100mW of energy in 140 Milliseconds to stabilise the grid. 
Since implementing the battery there has been many failures of the dinosaur technology, and the battery has covered for all the failings, the media and oppositions don't talk about this why ?, because it was all media hype and scare tactics due to our gov't reliance on coal to power our country. 
The services provided by this resource act so quickly the article said around 40% of services provided by the battery were provided in under 6 seconds, compare this to how long it takes to get the Torrens Island power plant online for these situations, which is 30 to 60 minutes it's a no brainier when you think about it. 
It has since been revealed the battery is acting too quick, and the dodgy measuring equipment was unable to determine there had been an equipment failure as the battery cut in so quick, they have had to install new equipment that will react quicker to pickup when the battery is assisting so it can be costed correctly.

----------


## Marc

> I hope for solutions that enable ev for everyone but too far off for me to see it happen. The notion of having ev and ice sharing will only result in high costs of ownership.  Fewer petrol stations chasing a profit and vehicle manufacturing costs rising exponentially due to diminishing production. Still no answer to the way we will manage to have an abundance of electricity needed to keep the energy hungry world working so we can still have food and freight deliveries and transport needs satisfied. Hopefully then we will have a sensible path to an ev world. 
> Personally my views have nothing to do with saving the planet, I just see electric motors as being a superior form of mobility.  At the moment, batteries as good as they are, are lacking for ev application. 
> As for the all or nothing approach,  the ev brigade should start looking at the obstacles and have practical aims in their endeavours. At the moment it is all a bit blind.

  A good post, Phil. I always marvel at how a technical problem that has different solutions is turned into a battleground for the moral superiority and the (pretend) altruistic knight in shining armour.  
Electric cars is a product like mobile phones and if the market likes them they will replace petrol cars like mobile phones replaced fixed lines. No big deal.  
Will they solve the energy bottleneck we experience at the moment? Surely not, they will aggravate it. May be that is the push we need to go nuclear and to build a few dozen dams and more coal fired stations. Who knows!
 Most if not all common problems in society were historically attributable to bad, incompetent, corrupt and idiotic people in power, with some moronic personal agenda. And this is no different. 
Meantime I am in the market for a new backup generator. Mine is getting long in the tooth. (Why long in the tooth and not long in the teeth? A horse has more than one tooth ... anyway ... what was I saying? New generator. I am between a 22HP 15kva honda https://dunlite.com.au/wp-content/up...DGUH15ES-2.pdf 
and  diesel https://www.bluedm.com.au/10-kva-diesel-generator-240v/ 
The main advantage of the diesel is that it can not be stolen  :Smilie:  Disadvantage, unknown chinese brand motor. Yes they make Kubota and Perkins but they cost twice as much.

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## John2b

> Most if not all common problems in society were historically attributable to bad, incompetent, corrupt and idiotic people in power, with some moronic personal agenda. And this is no different.

   Absolutely. That's why nuclear fission is used to boil water to make steam to turn a turbine to make electricity to be transported hundreds of miles to be pissed against the wall by lightbulbs that turn <0.1% of the original energy released into light, for example. And then those same people tell the populace not to embrace new technology that would increase efficiency to 1% because LED bulbs are expensive, besides greenhouse gas and global warming is a myth.

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## John2b

> Meantime I am in the market for a new backup generator. Mine is getting long in the tooth. (Why long in the tooth and not long in the teeth? A horse has more than one tooth ... anyway ... what was I saying? New generator. I am between a 22HP 15kva honda https://dunlite.com.au/wp-content/up...DGUH15ES-2.pdf 
> and  diesel https://www.bluedm.com.au/10-kva-diesel-generator-240v/ 
> The main advantage of the diesel is that it can not be stolen  Disadvantage, unknown chinese brand motor. Yes they make Kubota and Perkins but they cost twice as much.

  IT's hard to be sure but the Dunlight may have two seperate single phase outputs that cannot be combined, which may be an issue. Also it will be as noisey as hell and need to be enclosed. The Honda doesn't appear to be AVR either, which means its voltage and frequency will be rubbery, being dependent on a mechanical rpm governor. My Honda powered generator varies about 20 volts from no load to full load and about 4Hz in frequency. Some modern appliances won't like that, including some electric car chargers!

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## John2b

> Chrisp, your view that an ev suits most needs fails to take into account how people like their transport needs satisfied.

   By that logic no one would ever buy a cordless drill because it won't replace 2kW rotary hammer drill. No one vehicle will do everything the owner may want to do from time to time, irrespective of propulsion system. 
The major world car manufacturers have all announced (without exception) that the current ICE platforms will be the last ones developed and all future platforms will be designed around electric propulsion. Why? Because people who have owned or used a BEV have a strong preference not to buy an ICE vehicle again. There must be some reason for that - probably because once people have experienced a BEV it is how they want their future "transport needs satisfied."

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## phild01

> By that logic no one would ever buy a cordless drill because it won't replace 2kW rotasuitable ry hammer drill. No one vehicle will do everything the owner may want to do from time to time, irrespective of propulsion system.

  Popular SUV's pretty much cover what people need in one vehicle but as yet no suitable ev despite some attempts like the Kia and Mercedes offerings.
Why is it we don't hear of a sensible solution to the ev world of electricity supply in your comments. It is a lot of energy required night and day.

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## John2b

> Popular SUV's pretty much cover what people need in one vehicle...

  By who's judgment? How many multi-car households have only SUVs all of which can pull a caravan 500 kms? I would have though most households have at least one small or economical car. Does yours?  

> Why is it we don't hear of a sensible solution to the ev world of electricity supply in your comments. It is a lot of energy required night and day.

  Sensible solutions to the ev world of electricity supply have been covered before in this thread. Electric cars are a great solution to levelling of electricity supply and demand peaks. Electric cars are typically charged overnight during periods of low demand on the grid which helps to minimise the energy wasted winding down and cranking up the dinosaur boiling water electricity generators that power the bulk of Australia's electrical energy needs. The new Nissan Leaf and Tesla models are capable of import and exporting energy to the grid and owners if they choose will be able to profit as power-wall owners currently can by buying electricity when it is cheap and selling it back to the grid when the price rises due to demand.

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## phild01

> I would have though most households have at least one small or economical car. Does yours?

  No and neither do many neighbours.

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## phild01

> Sensible solutions to the ev world of electricity supply have been covered before in this thread.

  Hardly.   

> Electric cars are a great solution to levelling of electricity supply and demand peaks. Electric cars are typically charged overnight during periods of low demand on the grid which helps to minimise the energy wasted winding down and cranking up the dinosaur boiling water electricity generators that power the bulk of Australia's electrical energy needs.

  What will be the power source so that everyone's ev can be recharged overnight!   

> The new Nissan Leaf and Tesla models are capable of import and exporting energy to the grid and owners if they choose will be able to profit as power-wall owners currently can by buying electricity when it is cheap and selling it back to the grid when the price rises due to demand.

  That will do wonders for battery life.

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## John2b

> No and neither do many neighbours.

  I guess you don't have a battery drill either?

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## John2b

Sorry Phild01, all your questions have reasonable answers that have been given before.

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## woodbe

> What will be the power source so that everyone's ev can be recharged overnight!

  You would know that even if you don't have an electric car! 
Generally, there are a variety of power for an ev overnight: 
1. From the grid. Could be from old coal brown or black places. 
2. Some people have battery in their place charging their ev, and replaceing the power from solar panels during the day. 
3. Some people have their ev charged from the grid at home or work during the day. 
4. Some people have their ev charged from solar panels during the day.

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## phild01

I think people are underestimating the difficulty of power supply for everyone to have an ev and haulage ev's need to be considered. For the moment, the few who have ev's can be accommodated.

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## Pulse

> Was reading an article in regards to the Hornsdale power reserve battery in Adelaide. 
> All the hoo har and scare tactics from irrelevant parties when the battery was discussed saying it was going to be a big waste of money and wouldn't do anything to help with outages etc. 
> Initial cost was $91 million to build, in the first 6 months of operation is has earned $13million in revenue, $10.75Million of that was in energy sales and grid stabilisation services. 
> They have estimated it has already saved the Adelaide Gov't $33M in cost savings due to failing / ageing / overloaded equipment. 
> Nobody from the oppositions to this facility and how it was going to be the end of the world when it was switched on talk about how within weeks of implementation the coal- fired You Lang power station tripped and went offline and the battery was able to deliver 100Mw of energy in 140 Milliseconds to stabilise the grid. 
> In fact, there has been many failures of dinosaur technology since this was opened, and the system has covered for all the failings, the media and oppositions don't talk about this why ?, because it was all media hype and scare tactics due to our gov't reliance on coal to power our country. 
> The services provided by this resource act so quickly the article said around 40% of services provided by the battery were provided in under 6 seconds, compare this to how long it takes to get the Torrens Island power plant online for these situations, which is 30 to 60 minutes it's a no brainier when you think about it. 
> It's been revealed the battery is acting too quick, and the dodgy measuring equipment was unable to pick up when it had cut in, they have had to install new equipment that will react quicker to pickup when the battery is assisting so it can be costed correctly.

  Metrix, your post reminded me of a UK doco i saw years ago, the controller at the gas fired power station was watching TV and had to turn the plant on 30 seconds before Eastenders finished as 1/4 of the population was about to turn the kettle on! they needed a battery...  
Se

----------


## woodbe

> I think people are underestimating the difficulty of power supply for everyone to have an ev and haulage ev's need to be considered. For the moment, the few who have ev's can be accommodated.

  Power supply for ev cars is coming slowly, because the variety of ev cars is a small group compared to the petrol and diesel cars. Even slowly in Australia compared to the rest. 
One of the things we should be thinking of, is that most of all the petrol and diesel for the cars around Australia is come from outside Australia. Solar panels, wind and water etc creating electric in Australia reduces the cost of paying outside Australia. 
Years ago, we added Solar panels on our house, and we don't pay for any electric. Look around Australia and there are thousand people reducing the cost of power using solar panels. 
Most people know that over time, we will be reducing the coal, oil, etc to reduce the CO2 junk into the air. The government is generally goes slow with changes, but there are young people around the world who know what is happening.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Thunberg

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## chrisp

> I think people are underestimating the difficulty of power supply for everyone to have an ev and haulage ev's need to be considered. For the moment, the few who have ev's can be accommodated.

  There are certainly going to be difficulties and challenges with our transportation in the future - period. It doesn’t matter if it’s fossil fuel powered or electric powered. Fossil fuels will run out and will probably become very expensive, plus they have a negative impact on the environment. We are clearly going to be moving away from fossils fuels, regardless of whatever invested interests or ‘old ways” political parties may say (or naysay!). 
Heavy haulage will have to adapt too. It is strange that we haul bulk freight via roads in this country when it could be done more efficiently and effectively via rail (like they do in America). Maybe we’ll electrify our interstate rail lines and use electric locomotives to haul our freight? Who knows? 
As the saying goes, ‘necessity is the mother of invention’ and we’ll adapt somehow. 
But one thing is for certain is that we will be moving away from fossil fuels, and electric cars are looking to be the most promising alternative.

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## Bros

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Thunberg

  Cast your mind back 40yrs and the likes of Peter Costello and Peter Bettie and there would be many others who had radical beliefs that have changed considerably over time.

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## Bros

> The new Nissan Leaf and Tesla models are capable of import and exporting energy to the grid and owners if they choose will be able to profit as power-wall owners currently can by buying electricity when it is cheap and selling it back to the grid when the price rises due to demand.

  With a car?

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## Bedford

> Heavy haulage will have to adapt too. It is strange that we haul bulk freight via roads in this country when it could be done more efficiently and effectively via rail (like they do in America). Maybe well electrify our interstate rail lines and use electric locomotives to haul our freight?

   

> Trucks in America are responsible for the majority of freight movement over land and are tools in the manufacturing, transportation, and warehousing industries

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trucki..._United_States 
Chris, I'm not sure if you are aware that Australia is a little bit bigger than Melbourne, but the reason trucks carry the country is that there is so many places that are hundreds, possibly thousands of kilometers from any rail line.

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## John2b

> With a car?

   Why not?  *EVs as power sources for living* “Vehicle to Home” is a system that allows you to supply your home with the energy stored in a Nissan LEAF’s battery.    By charging up a Nissan LEAF at night when there is more capacity for electrical supply and then using that electricity as the daytime power source for a household, the system helps alleviate consumption of power in peak periods when demand is highest. Further, it can also be leveraged as backup power supply for emergencies.

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## chrisp

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trucki..._United_States 
> Chris, I'm not sure if you are aware that Australia is a little bit bigger than Melbourne, but the reason trucks carry the country is that there is so many places that are hundreds, possibly thousands of kilometers from any rail line.

  Bedford, if you have ever been to America and seen a freight train go by, they are impressive in their size. They dwarf any freight train in this country. Also, in America, truck ‘sleeper cabs’ are not the norm (as they are here). In the US the long distance runs are by train, and the trucks then move the freight from the train terminals to the final destination. So, relative to Australia, trucks In the US do the short haul. 
Also, have you ever been on the Western or Hume at night? It is bumper to bumper of trucks. Freight that could be moved by rail.

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## Bedford

> Bedford, if you have ever been to America and seen a freight train go by, they are impressive in their size. They dwarf any freight train in this country. Also, in America, truck ‘sleeper cabs’ are not the norm (as they are here). In the US the long distance runs are by train, and the trucks then move the freight from the train terminals to the final destination. So, relative to Australia, trucks In the US do the short haul. 
> Also, have you ever been on the Western or Hume at night? It is bumper to bumper of trucks. Freight that could be moved by rail.

  No, I haven't been to America but I understand what you are getting at. 
However if you look at Linfox, ( who would be one of the biggest transport companies here) https://www.linfox.com/transport-freight/rail-freight/ and what's available as rail freight areas it is very limited. 
I guess there are other lines as well that may go to remote areas but you can't expect a truck to sit at a rail siding waiting for a load. 
You can't really compare US with Aus, how much rail line has US got compared to here?

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## phild01

> Why not?  *EVs as power sources for living* “Vehicle to Home” is a system that allows you to supply your home with the energy stored in a Nissan LEAF’s battery.    By charging up a Nissan LEAF at night when there is more capacity for electrical supply and then using that electricity as the daytime power source for a household, the system helps alleviate consumption of power in peak periods when demand is highest. Further, it can also be leveraged as backup power supply for emergencies.

  How would this be of benefit in the most populous areas of the world, though it is interesting.

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## SilentButDeadly

> How would this be of benefit in the most populous areas of the world, though it is interesting.

  It means that fewer homes would feel the need to be fitted with a battery. Why would I need to buy a house battery AND a car with a battery when I could buy a car with a free house battery? And if this doesn't make sense then know that the battery in your average current EV is about four times the size of what you might need or be able to currently afford for your house battery...

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## phild01

> It means that fewer homes would feel the need to be fitted with a battery. Why would I need to buy a house battery AND a car with a battery when I could buy a car with a free house battery? And if this doesn't make sense then know that the battery in your average current EV is about four times the size of what you might need or be able to currently afford for your house battery...

  And that is why I found it interesting which is all well and good for the house dweller, but I did say the most populous areas of the world (where people happen to live in apartments). :Smilie:

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## Marc

> Absolutely. That's why nuclear fission is used to boil water to make steam to turn a turbine to make electricity to be transported hundreds of miles to be pissed against the wall by lightbulbs that turn <0.1% of the original energy released into light, for example. And then those same people tell the populace not to embrace new technology that would increase efficiency to 1% because LED bulbs are expensive, besides greenhouse gas and global warming is a myth.

   We actually don't have nuclear thanks to the greens and associated nincompoops, and the moronic politicians who want to please them to get re elected.  
As for the ban on incandescent light bulbs, in case you missed it, we pretend to live in a democracy that gives free choice. Bans and enforcement, are coercive measures that only the left rely on and rejoices at. 
This thread is a great example of different thought process. You believe to have the monopoly on what is good for me. I believe that only I know what is good for me.  
Extending this further to others, I add that if electric vehicles are the bees knees, the market, that is you and me will adopt it without the need for coercion. And coercion takes many forms, the most irritating is the religious form, where a group of do gooders try to impose their ideas by shaming others into some morality contest, going to the extreme of falsifying data and distorting reality to shine a light of righteousness, telling themselves that the end justifies the means. It is all for my benefit, only I don't know it yet, since you have some sort of god given illumination. (LED of course)  
Products, technological or otherwise must be available for the consumer to decide, not enforced. Price is the regulator according to supply and demand in a free market. Every attempt at manipulating the market with pretend moral grounds is an abomination and will only produce distortion that in turn does the population no good.  
As for Global warming, I am still waiting for this warming with bated breath. So far My chilly plants are still dormant due to unseasonal low temperatures. I think the kids from extinction in the nude. had a cooling effect on the weather. A great effort, particularly the head in the sand at Bondi beach. Applause! I believe they have temporarily shamed the sun away... you know, head in the sand means bottoms up in the air ... eeewww ...  
...so it is not CO2. Now there is some good news.

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## METRIX

Marc, are you still hurting over the incandescent ban, wait until September 2020 when Halogen is to be banned in Australia, better start stocking up now. 
I don't have a problem with them banning incandescent but at the time the alternative being pushed (and handed out for free from the gov't) was the CFL, which was not a good alternate back then due to the warm up time and the shorter life by switching off and on, the warm up time has been dramatically improved for CFL but the technology may as well die now LED has become mainstream with none of the disadvantaged of CFL. 
People carry on about the mercury in CFL and how it was a disaster, a CFL contains around 4Mg of Mercury, and if disposed of properly poses no risk to the users and is recoverable. 
It was estimated by AUS switching to CFL the amount of greenhouse gasses reduced from coal power stations would decrease by 800,000 tonnes per year, so what I hear you say. 
When coal is burned airborne mercury pollution is produced, lets take a random number of 1007.5Kg of mercury pollution, this would be the mercury used to produce 251875 CFL globes which is safely locked inside the vacuum tube that can be recovered. 
Lets take that random 1007.5Kg of mercury and relate it back to three power stations located in Victoria, Yalloum, LoyYang A, and Alinta's Loy Yang B this is how much airborne mercury pollution these three power stations generated. 
The Latrobe valley experienced a 37% increase in just 12 months, Loy Yang B power station has increased it Mercury output 123% over 5 years. 
Compare that to five power-stations located in NSW Bayswater, Eraring, Liddell, Mount Piper and Vales Point B, combined Mercury pollution from these was 151.5Kg.  *Compare the output.*
 Eraring 2880 MW
 Bayswater 2640MW
Liddell 2000 MW
Mount Piper 1400MW
Vales Point B 1320 MW  *Total of  10,240MW* *
Total Mercury combined 151Kg* 
Yallourn 1480MW
Mercury produced 435Kg 
No surprises, Australia's Highest polluting coal power station for 2017-1018 was Victorian based Yallourrn at 435Kg, the four largest power-station polluters, three are located in Victoria and one in Queensland, why is that ? 
Maybe it has something to do with the four power-stations in Australia that don't have emission collecting technology fitted, three are located in Victoria and one in Queensland I wonder if there is some correlation there ?  
In addition to this the most unreliable power stations in Australia were Loy Yang A and Yallourn in the last 18 months Loy Yang A had 29 unscheduled breakdowns, Yallourn 26. 
So to get back to the original point there was so much scare tactics over how we were all going to die because of CFL and Mercury poisoning, but we ignore the Mercury that;s being pumped out by the power stations. 
Marc, we do live in a Democracy and you were free to purchase as many incandescent bulbs as you wanted prior to them being banned, I don;t recall anyone from the gov't smashing down my door searching the house for illegal incandescent bulbs. 
At the time of banning these globes, it wasn't just Australia who did this, it was adopted by many countries around the world.  
The latest on this topic in the USA which was going to bad incandescent in 2020, the wonderful Ronald Dump has reversed this decision and sided with the manufacturers citing the replacement globes are too expensive, they are so backwards over there. 
Even tiny Australia with a minuscule population of 24 Million compared to US of 327 Million, you can buy  brand name 10 pack of ES27 800 lumen bulbs from the hardware store for under $20 so around $2 per globe, compare that to an incandescent which was around $1. 
If the Donald looks at economies of scale if we can get the price for a globe to such a low price surely they can do it over there.

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## Spottiswoode

I’m dont mind incandescent has gone. CFL was a horrible replacement though. Took minutes to get full brightness in them. I certainly don’t miss changing light bulbs either. All my LED lights consume 10% of the power of incandescent, turn on instantly like before CFL and haven’t had to change one (that I can rmember). 
I wouldn’t mind having an electric car connected to the house to use the battery. As long as there are some smarts that will make best use of the solar, grid, battery and driving usage patterns. Having a 40-70kwh battery for 400km range and then only driving 20-30km a day seems to be a waste of batteries.

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## phild01

> Having a 40-70kwh battery for 400km range and then only driving 20-30km a day seems to be a waste of batteries.

  If the shorter distances are for work travel then how does house solar help charge the ev when the car is not stationed at home.  And if the ev battery is used to power the house then what is left for the next days travel when the rain sets in. Too many assumptions solar being as reliable as the petrol pump.

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## METRIX

> If the shorter distances are for work travel then how does house solar help charge the ev when the car is not stationed at home.  And if the ev battery is used to power the house then what is left for the next days travel when the rain sets in. Too many assumptions solar being as reliable as the petrol pump.

   https://www.3quotes.com.au/solar-pow...oudy-days.html

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## phild01

> https://www.3quotes.com.au/solar-pow...oudy-days.html

  I have a 5kWh solar setup and have monitored performance. The most I have seen in a day is 37kWh and the least has been around 3kWh. When on a good day it produces say 25kWh, heavy rain days may only produce 4kWh. Have not had a totally clear day for the past 9 days.

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## Bros

> In addition to this the most unreliable power stations in Australia were Loy Yang A and Yallourn in the last 18 months Loy Yang A had 29 unscheduled breakdowns, Yallourn 26.

   We are getting a bit off topic here but reliability like any machine depends on its design, its operation and most important maintenance money that is spent. Private enterprise requires high returns for their money unlike state owned who can accept less.
Reliability can be bought.

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## METRIX

> We are getting a bit off topic here but reliability like any machine depends on its design, its operation and most important maintenance money that is spent. Private enterprise requires high returns for their money unlike state owned who can accept less.
> Reliability can be bought.

  Not really, the question keeps coming up where are we going to get all the power from to drive this new wave of transport, No magic rabbit for this one the above shows that with the current systems Australia is not equipped to have a major disruption to the power supplies in certain states due to the local gov't not spending money on infrastructure upgrades. 
Yes, reliability can be bought, if states resources either private or gov't owned are not willing to buy this, then that state will always be behind the 8 ball, and is why placed like Adelaide implemented the big battery because Victoria could not and continue to supply unreliable services.

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## Spottiswoode

> If the shorter distances are for work travel then how does house solar help charge the ev when the car is not stationed at home.  And if the ev battery is used to power the house then what is left for the next days travel when the rain sets in. Too many assumptions solar being as reliable as the petrol pump.

   This is why I said    

> As long as there are some smarts that will make best use of the solar, grid, battery and driving usage patterns

  it is important to be able to prioritise the source of the energy. Maybe this will mean more from the grid as necessary and also ensure the vehicle has enough juice for the following day. For example if my car uses 10kwh today during peak tariff it pumps 7kwh into the house until bed time and then recharged at off peak rates.
when I first heard how much energy a car needs I was surprised that is was more than a house!

----------


## phild01

> This is why I said  
> it is important to be able to prioritise the source of the energy. Maybe this will mean more from the grid as necessary and also ensure the vehicle has enough juice for the following day. For example if my car uses 10kwh today during peak tariff it pumps 7kwh into the house until bed time and then recharged at off peak rates.
> when I first heard how much energy a car needs I was surprised that is was more than a house!

  You might also be missing a point I made and that is the car may get very little chance of solar recharging and is very dependent on off-peak recharging.  But if we all do this then off peak will no longer exist and revert to peak charges. A lot of what is being said supporting ev solar charging ignores the need for work commuting and the full uptake of this type of transport.  John2b seems to think the challenges have been addressed...not so! 
Perhaps instead of one ev battery two are needed so one stays at home for charging each day... but for the eventual few who will have the luxury of home solar charging! _(so again considering uptake of apartments)_

----------


## Marc

Metrix you miss the point. 
Governments live off the taxpayer, from the money they coerce from them. Governments have the monopoly on violence, and the legal means to rob us manipulating markets and defrauding us by printing money. 
The intrusion on free markets with the pretence of the common good is a farce, and done only to suit their own agendas, political deals and industrial protection of different kinds.  
Whoever thinks that a government that bans a product does so for the good of the country is deluded. Governments knew about asbestos, thalidomide, mercury in fish, carcinogenic of all sorts way before it comes up 'as seen on TV',  and chose to do nothing. When they do something their actions are too little too late and have a completely different purpose to what it appears.

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## Bedford

> Freight that could be moved by rail.

  How much rail, and at what cost, would it take for Australia to be able to move bulk freight throughout the country by train, and only use short haul trucks to the final destination? 
BTW, how long is a short haul?

----------


## chrisp

> How much rail, and at what cost, would it take for Australia to be able to move bulk freight throughout the country by train, and only use short haul trucks to the final destination? 
> BTW, how long is a short haul?

  Hi Bedford, 
I dont think I, or this thread, needs to run down rabbit holes.  
My comment was general statement to address Phild01s post about electrifying freight transport. 
Ill leave it you to look up whatever details for yourself.

----------


## Bedford

> Hi Bedford, 
> I dont think I, or this thread, needs to run down rabbit holes.  
> My comment was general statement to address Phild01s post about electrifying freight transport. 
> Ill leave it you to look up whatever details for yourself.

  I don't need to know Chris, you're making the wild statements and I think it's only fair that you back them up.

----------


## Bros

> Bedford, if you have ever been to America and seen a freight train go by, they are impressive in their size. They dwarf any freight train in this country. Also, in America, truck sleeper cabs are not the norm (as they are here). In the US the long distance runs are by train, and the trucks then move the freight from the train terminals to the final destination. So, relative to Australia, trucks In the US do the short haul.

   This has been toted for many years and in I believe cost is a factor. There are always complaints about how hard the big companies push their drivers to keep costs down. I have seen the big freight trains in Canada and they are impressive. 
A couple of examples I can use is livestock transport and grain transport. Rail companies dont want to have rolling stock and locomotives available for seasonal use so this is left to road transport.
There are several freight trains travelling east coast of Queensland daily but cost would be a factor in using this method as it is easier to load a truck than a container. I'm old enough to remember every town had a parcels office at the train station but these have long gone.

----------


## phild01

> I'm old enough to remember every town had a parcels office at the train station but these have long gone.

   Same

----------


## Marc

Rail exists because governments at some point in time decided to spend some of the money the steal from us to build them and receive the acclaim and photo opportunity for the next election.
Rolling stock and rail get's old and need repairs or replacement so the government of the day declares them old had and lets them go, squandering the billions of our money they used to build them. Then, it goes to Fiji and throws away some more money ... or gives it to organisations that never asked for funds and have no idea what to do with it. 
It's the old story.
Of course rail si better than trucks, but it is also expensive and transport just like hospitals and education is a liability that governments need to face as part of the cost of having a modern society. A government that asks for transport health and education to turn a profit is passing the buck of their responsibility, declaring itself morally bankrupt, highly incompetent or all.  
We are immerse in such a thick brew of lies from a myriad of cross vested interest that the average dude has no clue where he stands or what is true or false, and that is precisely what all government of all persuasions prefer.

----------


## Bedford

> *Ex-Navy officer turned inventor signs a multi-million deal to  produce his electric car battery that will take drivers 1,500 miles  without needing to charge*

   https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arging-it.html

----------


## phild01

> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arging-it.html

  Very interesting, hope it eventuates. Like to know how it works.

----------


## chrisp

> Very interesting, hope it eventuates. Like to know how it works.

  It’s not a rechargeable ‘secondary cell’, but it is more like a use-once disposable ‘primary cell’. Aluminium is often described as “congealed electricity” due to the huge amount of energy required to refine it. The invention is a safe electrolyte to ‘unrefine’ the aluminium and release some of that energy.

----------


## phild01

> It’s not a rechargeable ‘secondary cell’, but it is more like a use-once disposable ‘primary cell’. Aluminium is often described as “congealed electricity” due to the huge amount of energy required to refine it. The invention is a safe electrolyte to ‘unrefine’ the aluminium and release some of that energy.

  Yes, I was aware it was not rechargeable but I like the way you say that aluminium somehow 'stores' the electricity that went into making it and that it can be released. Hadn't thought of it that way.  So what would you be left with...bauxite?

----------


## chrisp

> Yes, I was aware it was not rechargeable but I like the way you say that aluminium somehow 'stores' the electricity that went into making it and that it can be released. Hadn't thought of it that way.  So what would you be left with...bauxite?

  I’m not sure what would be left. I’d guess an aluminium oxide or something similar - I suppose it’ll depend on what the secret electrolyte is.  
Maybe they’ll recycle the used cells in to grinding wheels!  :Smilie:

----------


## Marc

So the good green guys that make electric cars fought this invention for years. Nice. 
How long till the lithium ion batteries are called dirty fuel?   

> The car industry has already poured massive investment into a very different type of battery, lithium-ion. Also found in devices such as computers and mobile phones, lithium-ion batteries are rechargeable. Almost every electric vehicle on the road uses them. But they have big drawbacks. As well as lithium, they contain rare, poisonous substances such as cobalt. They can explode or catch fire, as seen with the spate of incidents that forced Samsung to recall tens of thousands of Galaxy Note 7 phones in 2016. 
> With repeated charging, car-sized models eventually become spent. Recycling them to recover the cobalt and lithium is extremely expensive – about five times as much as the cost of disposing them and starting from scratch. Aluminium, on the other hand, is the planet's most abundant metal. Many of the factories that refine it from ore or recycled junk are powered by green, renewable energy, such as hydro-electric dams. 
> And once an aluminium-air fuel cell is spent, it can be recycled very cheaply. According to Jackson, the cost of recycling means the running costs of an aluminium-air powered car would work out at 7p per mile. The cost of a small hatchback's petrol comes to around 12p per mile. More important, lithium-ion batteries are heavy. Accredited tests have shown that, weight for weight, Jackson's fuel cell produces nine times as much energy as lithium-ion: nine times as many kilowatt hours of electricity per kilogram. 
> The luxury electric car maker Tesla says its model S has a range of 370 miles from one charge. Jackson says that if you drove the same car with an aluminium-air cell that weighed the same as the lithium-ion battery, the range would be 2,700 miles. Aluminium-air cells also take up less space. Jackson claims that if the Tesla were fitted with an aluminium-air fuel cell that was the same size as its current battery, it could run non-stop for 1,500 miles – almost enough to get from Land's End to John O'Groats and back again. An average British family – whose car will travel 7,900 miles annually – would need to change their fuel cell only a handful of times each year.

  I hope no one thinks of pushing him overboard on the ferry, or sabotage production or some other well known strategies to put this in the freezer for another 10 years. Green renewables my foot. Same mafia strategies then any other industry with a cardboard smiling mask.
Save the planet! How dare you! What a load of crook.

----------


## John2b

> So the good green guys that make electric cars fought this invention for years. Nice. 
> How long till the lithium ion batteries are called dirty fuel?

  The chemistry of AL-air batteries has been known for six decades and AL-air are batteries used in specific applications for vehicles used military forces where their advantages outweigh the disadvantages. The market for portable power (not just cars) would have exploited AL-air technology eons ago if they could. If something is too good to be true, it likely is. And no, I am not putting the kibosh on this technology, just a basic reality check.

----------


## chrisp

> The chemistry of AL-air batteries has been known for six decades and AL-air are batteries used in specific applications for vehicles used military forces where their advantages outweigh the disadvantages. The market for portable power (not just cars) would have exploited AL-air technology eons ago if they could. If something is too good to be true, it likely is. And no, I am not putting the kibosh on this technology, just a basic reality check.

  Exactly.  Metal-air battery technology has been know for a long time. Zinc-air batteries are very commonly used for hearing aids, and similar applications, for many years/decades. 
The other issue is the round-trip-energy-efficiency of the aluminium technology. I suspect that it’d struggle to get to 20%.

----------


## Bedford

> The chemistry of AL-air batteries has been known for six decades and AL-air are batteries used in specific applications for vehicles used military forces where their advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

  Have you got a link to military vehicles that use these "batteries", and what are the advantages that outweigh the disadvantages?

----------


## Marc

So you think it will not get up commercially?

----------


## John2b

> Have you got a link to military vehicles that use these "batteries", and what are the advantages that outweigh the disadvantages?

  It's all a bit secret so a list of military applications is funnily enough not readily available. As well as ground vehicles, submarines also apparently use AL-air battery technology. The disadvantages are obvious - using the technology is expensive and the batteries can't be recharged, except "mechanically" by replacing the anode, and being by necessity an unsealed electrolyte system hydrogen gas or caustic mist can be released into the vehicle representing a hazard to the operator or occupants. The advantages of high power and light weight must outweigh the disadvantages for specific applications. There's information from back in the '80s in this military assessment of the technology here: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/7242201 and some current military uses including satellites are referred to in this document from 2012 here: http://www.ittoday.info/Articles/Nex...Fuel_Cells.pdf

----------


## John2b

> So you think it will not get up commercially?

  I have no idea if it will get up commercially. History shows that whatever gets up "commercially" mostly does so only after government sponsored / subsidised investment, AKA public funding in the public interest paid for by your, my and everyone else's taxes. It certainly isn't going to get up commercially in Australia as long as the current guvmint is clutching onto coal.

----------


## Bedford

> It's all a bit secret so a list of military applications is funnily enough not readily available. As well as ground vehicles, submarines also apparently use AL-air battery technology. The disadvantages are obvious - using the technology is expensive and the batteries can't be recharged, except "mechanically" by replacing the anode, and being by necessity an unsealed electrolyte system hydrogen gas or caustic mist can be released into the vehicle representing a hazard to the operator or occupants. The advantages of high power and light weight must outweigh the disadvantages for specific applications. There's information from back in the '80s in this military assessment of the technology here: https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/7242201 and some current military uses including satellites are referred to in this document from 2012 here: http://www.ittoday.info/Articles/Nex...Fuel_Cells.pdf

  Thanks for that, so in simple terms it's the lemon juice and zinc principle?

----------


## UseByDate

> Thanks for that, so in simple terms it's the lemon juice and zinc principle?

  Not really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HvstKvFss8

----------


## Marc

> I have no idea if it will get up commercially. History shows that whatever gets up "commercially" mostly does so only after government sponsored / subsidised investment, AKA public funding in the public interest paid for by your, my and everyone else's taxes. It certainly isn't going to get up commercially in Australia as long as the current guvmint is clutching onto coal.

  You are assuming too much. If the battery is viable it will go into electric vehicles, if it is not viable or if it is sabotaged commercially, it will not. The Australian government is as relevant to this matter as the wind direction is to the colour of the tiles in my bathroom. Unless I missed something and there are vehicle that are fueled with coal? That would be a spectacle to watch. 
Here is one fuelled by charcoal or wood. Popular during the 2WW.  
<br>

----------


## Bedford

> Here is one fuelled by charcoal or wood. Popular during the 2WW.

  Both my grandfathers had gas producers on their cars, my mother learnt to drive with one during the war, she probably still has some pictures somewhere.  *Kurth Kiln*   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurth_Kiln

----------


## John2b

> You are assuming too much.... The Australian government is as relevant to this matter as the wind direction is to the colour of the tiles in my bathroom. Unless I missed something and there are vehicle that are fueled with coal?

  Right now the Australian government is funding development of underground coal gasification projects and that gas _could_ be a feedstock to petroleum products including fuels for vehicles. 
How about a list of examples of technology development that was devoid of government concessions, subsidies or funding? It would be pretty short LOL.

----------


## Bros

> Right now the Australian government is funding development of underground coal gasification projects and that gas _could_ be a feedstock to petroleum products including fuels for vehicles.

   Didn't do to well here. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-...-plant/9632964

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## METRIX

Powerstation of the future perhaps ?

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## John2b

It really is a mystery why modern BEVs didn't take off earlier when first introduced in the 1970s. With bits scrounged from the parts bin of the Hillman Imp, Leyland Mini and Reliant tri-wheelers, the Enfield-Neorion 8000 had pedigree. Maybe the fact it was built in a Greek factory didn't help overcome resistance to its 77kph top speed and 65 km range. Could it be that the model in this picture is indicating the cars pulling power?   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neorion 
Toyota, caught with their hybrid pants down are rushing to the party with their first fully BEV offering at the current 2019 Tokyo Motor Show. Toyota plans to have a bevy of BEV models based on 6 new BEV platforms in all world markets by 2025 - Toyota had better get it's electric skates on!   https://www.motor1.com/news/376824/t...-bev-revealed/

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## SilentButDeadly

> It really is a mystery why modern BEVs didn't take off earlier when first introduced in the 1970s. With bits scrounged from the parts bin of the Hillman Imp, Leyland Mini and Reliant tri-wheelers, the Enfield-Neorion 8000 had pedigree. Maybe the fact it was built in a Greek factory didn't help overcome resistance to its 77kph top speed and 65 km range. Could it be that the model in this picture is indicating the cars pulling power?   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neorion 
> Toyota, caught with their hybrid pants down are rushing to the party with their first fully BEV offering at the current 2019 Tokyo Motor Show. Toyota plans to have a bevy of BEV models based on 6 new BEV platforms in all world markets by 2025 - Toyota had better get it's electric skates on!   https://www.motor1.com/news/376824/t...-bev-revealed/

  Your mystery may have something to do with the most powerful entity in English auto electronics at the time...Lucas. Better known these days as the Prince of Darkness.

----------


## John2b

> Your mystery may have something to do with the most powerful entity in English auto electronics at the time...Lucas. Better known these days as the Prince of Darkness.

   Why do the English drink warm beer? They have Lucas refrigerators. 
Meanwhile Honda is reaching for Toyota's exposed bits, announcing that all of its European mainstream models to feature electrified powertrains by 2022. I'm in Kyoto Japan at the moment and there is little evidence of any BEV Armageddon happening here (although maybe 1 in 5 new vehicles are hybrids). In fact the Honda dealer here has just one slow charger, one fast charger and one enormous and deliriously expensive looking hydrogen refuelling station, and no sign of any vehicle using any of them. I think Honda has messed its pants over its investment hydrogen refueling.  https://hondanews.eu/eu/en/cars/medi...-2022-ambition

----------


## UseByDate

> Why do the English drink warm beer? They have Lucas refrigerators.

  Sacrilege.  
 The British serve and drink their beer/ale at a temperature that allows them to enjoy the full flavour of the drink. Australian beer tastes so bad that the drinker needs it to be so cold that it acts as an anaesthetic just to get it past their taste buds.   :Smilie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5UedfCySQk  https://www.dummies.com/food-drink/d...t-temperature/  
 PS agree about Lucus Industries though. *“Cross-licensing agreements* 
 In the 1920s Lucas signed a number of cross licensing agreements with Bosch, Delco and most of the other automotive electrical equipment manufacturers in Europe and North America. In addition, these agreements included a non-competitive clause agreeing that Lucas would not sell any electrical equipment in their countries and they would not sell electrical equipment in Great Britain. By the mid-1930s Lucas had a virtual monopoly of automotive electrical equipment in Great Britain.  
 With a monopoly in place, Lucas proceeded to supply electrical equipment that was commonly cited as the best reason not to buy a British car." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Industries

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## Marc

I used to drink coopers stout at room temperature in winter for years.

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## phild01

manual ev! 
https://techcrunch.com/2019/11/05/ford-built-an-electric-mustang-with-a-manual-transmission-and-were-mad/

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## UseByDate

> manual ev! 
> https://techcrunch.com/2019/11/05/ford-built-an-electric-mustang-with-a-manual-transmission-and-were-mad/

  They will be putting a saddle on it next. :Rolleyes:

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## Spottiswoode

https://www.facebook.com/zeroautomot...=e&d=n&sfns=mo

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## phild01

> https://www.facebook.com/zeroautomot...=e&d=n&sfns=mo

  Needs better range.  
Wonder how the zinc-manganese battery development goes! New battery technology could slash the cost of electric vehicles - The Lead SA

----------


## Marc

> Needs better range.  
> Wonder how the zinc-manganese battery development goes! New battery technology could slash the cost of electric vehicles - The Lead SA

  Interesting. 
My skeptic nature tells me that ONE million to research a "revolutionary" battery that started less than a year ago and is already talking success. A research that started in china and is now researched in Australia (?) sounds like a trojan horse. Let's give the aussies something to be proud of so we can spearhead the market with something.
I suppose that a good battery is all it is needed to turn a stupid useless car into something useful. This may just do it. 
Still waiting for the aluminium - air fuel cell. At least that one does not need recharging just a team of monza pit technicians to change it in record time. We could held competitions ... or better re-employ the girls! without mentioning their gender of course ... they will be, human fuel swapparolers.   :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

Lovely to see our rates at work, especially the 16 golf carts. :Rolleyes:    

> The City of Adelaide is passionate about a carbon neutral future.  Were excited to be trialling the locally manufactured ZED70 Electric  Vehicle, which has joined the fleet of horticulture vehicles this week. 🚙🌳 
>   We currently have 47 electric vehicles in operation across the fleet,  including a bus, 2 mall buggies, 7 gators for park maintenance, 3  sweepers, 4 scrubbers, a water truck, 16 golf carts, a passenger sedan,  and 12 hybrid electric sedans. The City of Adelaide also has over 40  electric vehicle charging stations located around the city.

  https://www.facebook.com/zeroautomotivecars/?hc_ref=ARRX6CGxMUwz7XSSmxhmjF74C5EkvP0sh-6fXPAxiOlp3t1JeEZALs9MZJo67WpTj2A&fref=nf&__xts_

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## Marc

I wonder if they can whack a battery in the submarine? Who needs nuclear right? And diesel is oh so passe! yuck  :Frown:   :Cry: Battery is the way to go.  :Smilie:

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## Spottiswoode

> Needs better range.

   300km would be plenty for me right now. I really only do 100km trips and that is only occasionally. I reckon most people would actually be happy with 300km range for 90% of their travel, just recharge each night. I’d be happy with about 200 for my ute right now, it only uses a tank every 3-4 weeks.  
Obviously at at this point in time if you regularly travel more than 300km in a day an electric vehicle is not for you.

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## UseByDate

For those with an electric car and charge it at home. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q8r6i0-fCk

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## Marc

Well, obviously being involved in the electric car market does not automatically make people smarter. And you can blame the eagerness of the consumer that wants the car to be able to be charged from anything, anywhere. Plug it into you phone charger!, in the next door neighbours garage 10A powerpoint using a bunnings lead 50 meters long!
Oh but for the cooking range we have a dedicated 32A hard wired ...   :Biggrin:

----------


## Bloss

> I wonder if they can whack a battery in the submarine? Who needs nuclear right? And diesel is oh so passe! yuck  Battery is the way to go.

  The "Attack Class" submarines will be battery powered diesel-electric (but one hopes using air independent propulsion or H2 fuel cells) as are the current Collins Class and as were the Oberon class. That's bad enough (as the design is a nuclear powered-sub downgraded to diesel!), but worse the proposal, even though design is not finalised & construction not yet finalised and we wont see one in service until ~2030 if there are no delays (as if!) and they are still saying lead acid batteries!

----------


## UseByDate

> (as the design is a nuclear powered-sub downgraded to diesel!)

  Not according to the Navy.
 The diesel electric submarine is being designed from the outset to be a diesel electric submarine and not a nuclear submarine downgrade.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYF08jJi9Hg
 From 10:30

----------


## METRIX

TESLA had the launch for their new Electric pickup CYBERTRUCK,

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> TESLA had the launch for their new CYBERTRUCK,

  Colour me underwhelmed. I'd prefer an electric Hino over this elegant piece of consumer trolling.

----------


## METRIX

> Colour me underwhelmed. I'd prefer an electric Hino over this elegant piece of consumer trolling.

  Why is it consumer trolling. 
It has better specs, better offroad capabilities than anything made by Ford, Ram, Chevy, RRP is also cheaper than the other three for equivalent models, filling it up will cost next to nothing compared to the other three manufacturers vehicles.

----------


## Petebrisvegas

> Why is it consumer trolling. 
> It has better specs, better offroad capabilities than anything made by Ford, Ram, Chevy, RRP is also cheaper that the other three for equivelant models, filling it up will cost next to nothing compared to the other three manufacturers vehicles.

  
Possibly better specs but any ofroad capabilities are yet to be defined   . Price , i will believe that when i actually see money change hands for one .  . Dont get me wrong electric is clearly the future and Musk had a big chance to really get a huge first mover advantage over the many rivals coming but this recycled fridge looking thing with stratco shed body lines is a severe waste of that advantage . It really looks like a project by the local high schools metal working dept  ..   It almost looks like an april fools joke   https://elonmusk.today/

----------


## Marc

Washing machine with wheels  :Rofl5: 
Couldn't resist ...
Seriously now, I can almost see, using my fervid imagination, a Hummer in that sketch. 
The best quote from Mr Elon a year ago: "The fundamental message consumers should be taking today is that it's financially insane to buy anything other than a Tesla. It'll be like owning a horse in three years."  I like horses.  :Smilie:   My primary school teacher told me repeatedly "In the year 2000 ... all cars will fly"  :Smilie:  Pigs will fly too  What it seems ... most if not all electric car enthusiast are missing, is that a super elaborate electric car made with space technology is junk if it has no electricity to recharge. So essentially it is completely dependent from our aging, archaic electricity network. It is like a kid with a drone flying it off the deck of a 19 century Brigantine.  
Electric cars may be the current fad, but they are certainly NOT " the future" They may be in the market as a bridging technology until we find something better that is truly independent from any powerpoint.  
Then again my crystal ball is out for repairs.  :Smilie:

----------


## METRIX

> Possibly better specs but any ofroad capabilities are yet to be defined   . Price , i will believe that when i actually see money change hands for one .  . Dont get me wrong electric is clearly the future and Musk had a big chance to really get a huge first mover advantage over the many rivals coming but this recycled fridge looking thing with stratco shed body lines is a severe waste of that advantage . It really looks like a project by the local high schools metal working dept  ..   It almost looks like an april fools joke   https://elonmusk.today/

  The only joke is on the other manufacturers, 3 days after the reveal more than 187,000 orders placed for it including my one  :Smilie:

----------


## Petebrisvegas

> The only joke is on the other manufacturers, 3 days after the reveal more than 187,000 orders placed for it including my one

  
$100 ( fully refundable ) deposit is for a reason  , meaningless numbers  .  Not a chance that thing is going to be legal to drive on australian roads , good luck

----------


## phild01

> 187,000 orders placed for it including my one

  Can we try it when it arrives :Smilie:

----------


## Whitey66

> The only joke is on the other manufacturers, 3 days after the reveal more than 187,000 orders placed for it including my one

   I'm selling raffle tickets for the Sydney Harbour Bridge, tickets are only $100 each. Want me to put one aside one for you  :Smilie:

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Possibly better specs but any ofroad capabilities are yet to be defined   . Price , i will believe that when i actually see money change hands for one .  . Dont get me wrong electric is clearly the future and Musk had a big chance to really get a huge first mover advantage over the many rivals coming but this recycled fridge looking thing with stratco shed body lines is a severe waste of that advantage . It really looks like a project by the local high schools metal working dept  ..   It almost looks like an april fools joke   https://elonmusk.today/

  Pretty much this...

----------


## METRIX

> $100 ( fully refundable ) deposit is for a reason  , meaningless numbers  .  Not a chance that thing is going to be legal to drive on australian roads , good luck

  Why would it not be legal to drive here, if it passes the regulation standards in the US how is this so different to here ?

----------


## METRIX

> I'm selling raffle tickets for the Sydney Harbour Bridge, tickets are only $100 each. Want me to put one aside one for you

  No thanks, I drive on it most days so not interested in winning it.

----------


## METRIX

> Washing machine with wheels

  Each to their own, I think it looks fantastic, like something out of a Sci Fi movie that's actually real and you can buy one, not have to have a bespoke one made for a cost of many Millions of dollars.   

> My primary school teacher told me repeatedly "In the year 2000 ... all cars will fly" 
>  Pigs will fly too

  
Well not technically all, but there are actually 10 different flying cars on the market in 2019    

> What it seems ... most if not all electric car enthusiast are missing, is that a super elaborate electric car made with space technology is junk if it has no electricity to recharge. So essentially it is completely dependent from our aging, archaic electricity network. It is like a kid with a drone flying it off the deck of a 19 century Brigantine.

  Are you still talking about this, bump that record Marc because it's stuck in the same groove since you started this topic  :Tongue:

----------


## Bedford

> The only joke is on the other manufacturers, 3 days after the reveal more than 187,000 orders placed for it including my one

  Is the CYBERTRUCK ADR compliant?

----------


## METRIX

> Is the CYBERTRUCK ADR compliant?

  It will have to be if they intend on bringing it here.
Looking at it they have a few things to finalise in the design, such as blinkers, steering wheel etc etc. 
Not due until 2021 so there is plenty of time to get it sorted.

----------


## Whitey66

> No thanks, I drive on it most days so not interested in winning it.

   But if you win it in my raffle you won't have to pay any tolls to drive over it, add those savings to your miracle truck and it will cost you next to nothing to run.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> It will have to be if they intend on bringing it here.
> Looking at it they have a few things to finalise in the design, such as blinkers, steering wheel etc etc. 
> Not due until 2021 so there is plenty of time to get it sorted.

   It cant be that hard to modify the tech from the existing vehicles for motion, ie batteries, motor, subframes and probably even most of the floor pan. The rest of it is dress up and toys (compressor, air suspension etc) that can be bought off the shelf for current vehicles. If the body worn is going to be so boxy it should be hard to fabricate as well.

----------


## John2b

The body styling is a throwback. It looks like an SUV version of a Maserati Boomerang from 1971.

----------


## METRIX

> But if you win it in my raffle you won't have to pay any tolls to drive over it, add those savings to your miracle truck and it will cost you next to nothing to run.

  Righto then, thanks for the clarification, I thought it was a lot more complicated. 
An old fella going by the name of Samuel Langhorne Clemens made a famous quote.
Now where have I seen that quote recently, give me a minute, I will get back to you !.

----------


## METRIX

> The body styling is a throwback. It looks like an SUV version of a Maserati Boomerang from 1971.

----------


## METRIX

> It can’t be that hard to modify the tech from the existing vehicles for motion, ie batteries, motor, subframes and probably even most of the floor pan. The rest of it is dress up and toys (compressor, air suspension etc) that can be bought off the shelf for current vehicles. If the body worn is going to be so boxy it should be hard to fabricate as well.

  No need to modify existing tech to make it work as it's a working model already, based on a new uni-body design not a traditional body on frame like every other truck. 
According to the reports the flat panels are easy to make as they don't require the use of huge stamping machines to create them like traditional vehicles, saving millions in tooling costs, the body panels need to be thicker to stop oil canning etc. 
The models shown had panels made from 3mm propitiatory Stainless / Alloy which is being used on Space X products, one big advantage of having your fingers in the space industry as well. 
I think it's hilarious, again Tesla has disrupted the industryt, which has been steadily plodding along, not really doing anything new for many decades, this is why so many people are running for cover as they don't know how to react to something like this, it's amazing what upsets people these days. 
All you have to do is make a vehicle that has flat squared off panels instead of round curves and the world is going to end, um hasn't Lamborghini been doing this forever ? 
This one company has pushed transportation rethinking and advancements in the industry on by decades in just a few short years, something no other company has managed to ever do, it's just a new way of looking at things, as always humans are reluctant to change.   ]

----------


## METRIX



----------


## phild01

Hearing $113,000 for the Cybertruck atm, I'm sure the price will go higher at time of sale.  Big investment for an unknown quantity!

----------


## METRIX

> Hearing $113,000 for the Cybertruck atm, I'm sure the price will go higher at time of sale.  Big investment for an unknown quantity!

  Compare to current Tesla on sale here should give a good indication of what local cost will be.
$113,000 would be for the 3 motor 2.9 second 0-100 800Km range version. 
As of today there is over $10 Billion in pre orders for the truck.
Pre order figures are as follows. 
42% dual motor
41% Triple motor
17% Single motor   *Model 3* 
Standard 
US $39,990
AUS $67,900 
Long Range 
US $47,000
AUS $85,900 
Performance 
US $56,990
AUS $93,900   *CYBERTRUCK* 
Single Motor
US $39,900 
Dual Motor
US $49,900 
Triple Motor
US $69,900  https://twitter.com/i/status/1198751258384818176

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## Marc

Not a fad, but a real truck.     https://www.paulwakelingram.com.au/v...hoCiRsQAvD_BwE

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## John2b

What's that huge appendage of chromed plastic on the front of the Ram if it isn't a 'fad'? 
"...one thing is certain. When the this big grille truck thing is all over, whoever still has them will feel ... as cool as an Elvis impersonator at a Tennessee truck stop."  https://www.thedrive.com/design/5054...-bulging-hoods

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## Bedford

> Compare to current Tesla on sale here should give a good indication of what local cost will be.
> $113,000 would be for the 3 motor 2.9 second 0-100 800Km range version. 
> As of today there is over $10 Billion in pre orders for the truck.
> Pre order figures are as follows. 
> 42% dual motor
> 41% Triple motor
> 17% Single motor   *Model 3* 
> Standard 
> US $39,990
> ...

  
Which one did you order, and what sort of contract was involved?

----------


## Marc

*
Ha ha, mine is bigger than yours syndrome works every time. * _"A greenie is the only person that would jump over the Berlin wall towards the east. " Anonimous_ *    
Why electric cars aren’t as environmentally-friendly as you think ... last updated: 19/08/2019*  *By  Sofia Sanchez Manzanaro  & Marta Rodriguez*  Electric cars are set to charge ahead and replace their fossil fuel-guzzling cousins in the coming years as Europe hunts for ways to fight climate change.But while these new vehicles don’t directly produce any carbon emissions, are they really as good for the environment as we think?
Much depends on whether the electricity used by the cars is produced by renewable sources or a coal-fired energy plant.
There are also ecological question marks over the components used in electric cars, including the battery and the use of rare-earth metals.
One such rare-earth metal is neodymium, which is used to make very strong magnets found in all types of electric motors.
The mining of such elements generates thorium contamination — a radioactive element found in the metals that can negatively affect the surrounding environment.  READ MORE: What are rare earth elements and why are they important in the US-China trade war?
Mountain Pass, the biggest rare-earth mine in the US, sits near the national reserve of Mojave Desert in California.
Between 1965 and 1995, it was the world’s main supplier of rare-earth elements. However, the extraction of the metals came at a high price for the Californian wilderness. A federal investigation in the 1990s found about 2,300 litres of radioactive and other hazardous wastewater had been dumped into the desert soil.
The company deemed responsible paid a fine of €1.3 million. Nevertheless, it obtained another 30-year permit for rare earths extraction in the California region. View of the Mountain Pass mine in California on August 4 2019EU/Copernicus Sentinel  
But the environmental dangers and the contamination of natural resources has stopped the growth of rare-earth mines in the US.
That hasn’t been the case elsewhere in the world, notably China, which produces 70% of the world’s rare-earth output.
At the end of the 1980s, China rapidly developed a mine in Bayan Obo, which has huge deposits of niobium. Situated around 700 kilometres from Beijing, it has the world’s largest reserve of rare-earth metals.
According to the Chinese Association of Rare Earths, between 9,600 and 12,000 cubic metres of waste in the form of gas containing concentrated dust, hydrofluoric acid, sulphur dioxide, and sulphuric acid, are expelled for each tonne of extracted rare-earth elements.
Additionally, around 75 cubic metres of acid wastewater and a tonne of radioactive waste are produced.
Although little research has been done on the direct effects on the population of Bayan Obo, a 2015 study from Beijing’s Institute of Geographic Sciences and Natural Resources Research revealed the population’s high vulnerability to being exposed to the metals’ dust. The magnitude of the excavation surrounding the population is visible from satellites in space. *Rare-earth metals and the green revolution* 
There’s a high probability that the device you’re using to read this article was made with elements from the Chinese mine.
The use of rare earths in digital societies has reached such a high point that it’s now very difficult to do without them. One of the elements is particularly important for our technology: neodymium, used for electric motors. View of the Bayan Obo mine from the Sentinel satellite, 16 August 2019Copernicus Sentinel   
##
“The electrification of societies corresponds to much greater exploitation of neodymium,” Jorge Morales de Labra, industrial engineer and entrepreneur in the electrical sector, told Euronews.
“Can we live without neodymium? I doubt it. It’s the best element we know to make magnets and I don’t think we will find anything better than neodymium. However, we must be aware of the high levels of contamination created by its extraction,” he said.
Rare earths are not only essential for high-tech products but also for renewable technologies, explained Juan Diego Rodríguez-Blanco, a professor of nanomineralogy at Trinity College Dublin and funded investigator in the Irish Centre for Research in Applied Geosciences (iCRAG).
Thanks to the increasing use of electric energy, rare earths producers have found a new niche in the market thanks to the “green revolution”.
Electric cars and wind turbines require rare earths for their use — contrasting with the “dirty” process that means extracting them.
However, as Morales de Labra said, all human activities generate some kind of impact on the environment. A worker in a rare earths mine in Nancheng, ChinaReuters   
Laurentino Gutiérrez, a car engineer, explained that electric cars use two types of motors. On the one hand, they need a synchronous motor, which works with rare earths or electromagnets.
“They are very efficient but more expensive. If you want a lot of horsepower, it’s complicated to get it with these elements,” he said.
Gutiérrez said the only carmaker that made cars with a synchronous motor but without rare earths is Renault because they use electromagnets instead. “They only have between 90 and 110 horsepower, but they are more ecological,” he said.
On the other hand, are the induction motors that don’t need rare earths. They are mainly used by Tesla, though in their last model they did use the precious metals. *Exporting pollution from cities to the countryside?* 
One of the main objectives of electric cars is to improve the quality of the air that citizens breathe, mainly in high density areas congested by petrol and diesel vehicles.
But while electric cars do not directly produce carbon emissions, their manufacturing does.
“Making an electric car produces the same CO2 emissions as making two fuel cars,” said Gutiérrez. According to him, an electric car becomes more environmentally-friendly after its first 30,000 to 40,000 kilometres.
“Although the global emissions are the same in both cases, in one case you have all the emissions in a factory many kilometres from the city and in the other case the emissions are in the city, where people breathe and there’s a real impact on health,” he said. *The Spanish town that turned its back on rare earths* 
The population of Campo de Montiel, a region of the Spanish province of Ciudad Real, did not want to sacrifice their natural resources to obtain the "gold of the 21st century". This area has a monazite deposit, a rare earth phosphate containing small amounts of radioactive thorium and uranium.
Quantum Minería had applied for an exploitation permit to open an open-sky mine in the region, which has a unique and protected native fauna: the Iberian Lynx and the Imperial Eagle, both endangered species. Reuters   
But thanks to the massive local opposition to the mine and a technical report demonstrating a negative environmental impact, the project was stopped.
“This is experimental mining, there is hardly any experience in Europe with rare earths. Mining is necessary, but it cannot be done anywhere,” said Luis Manuel Ginés, president of the anti-rare earths mine association Campo de Montiel, Sí a la Tierra Viva.
Rodríguez-Blanco noted that it is difficult to know the long-term effects of rare earths extraction but they could be dangerous for the aquifers in the area and could affect animals and human beings. *Looking ahead* 
Rare earths seem to be here to stay but even if they have given us the opportunity to free our cars from polluting fossil fuels, we may instead be putting pressure on another finite resource.
“This is likely to lead to a shortage of some specific rare (less abundant) earths during seasons, within a decade or two, and lead to rare earth mining in places such as Greenland, for example,” said Rodríguez-Blanco.
However, the expert did point out that cleaner extraction methods are being developed that do not cause serious environmental damage. These include recycling or controlling the discharge of acids used during extraction by means of other products that neutralise it or reuse the C02 produced.

----------


## John2b

Even if the electricity for charging electric cars comes from brown coal power stations there is still a net reduction in energy consumption. Electric motor powered vehicles are greater than 5 times more efficient converting stored energy into motion than ICE powered vehicles, which more than makes up for the downside of using fossil energy as a source for the electricity. 
Nothing else about the consumption of rare earths or the destruction of the environment caused by resource exploitation is BEV unique, nor will 'business as usual model' mitigate those factors.

----------


## METRIX

> Not a fad, but a real truck.     https://www.paulwakelingram.com.au/v...hoCiRsQAvD_BwE

  
Ho Ho Ho for sure that's a REAL TRUCK for REAL MEN, is it from 1950 ? 
You forgot to add the 2500 RAM starts from AU$139,950 and goes to beyond AU$150,000 plus on road costs. 
For an old dinosaur the specs are useless, such a massive vehicle and it can only handle 913kg in the tray Ha Ha Ha and that's with no occupants or luggage, add some big beefy "Real Men" in the cabin because only "Real Men" with Guts and Glory drive these and the payload quickly drops. 
Even the standard Ford Ranger tub can carry 1002Kg in the back, even worse the DPF plagued Hilux can carry 925Kg and it does this with a 4Cyl problematic engine. 
Tesla CT can handle towing from 3400Kg to over 6300Kg depending on the model, payload is 1587Kg max power and torque TBD but bound to be much more than the Ram 2500, remember the Tesla is competing with F150 / 1500 series trucks not F250 / 2500 series. 
Add a load or tow with the RAM and watch the fuel consumption go through the roof. 
The interior, really !, for a $139,000 vehicle is that the best they can do, even a $30,000 corolla has a better interior, did they source the screen from an old Nintendo, Ha Ha Ha Ha.

----------


## DavoSyd

> The interior, really !, for a $139,000 vehicle is that the best they can do, even a $30,000 corolla has a better interior, did they source the screen from an old Nintendo, Ha Ha Ha Ha.

  oh wow. none of that is pleasant.   
some of those numbers are just bad.  
but this one is shocking:   

> from AU$139,950

    _really?_

----------


## Moondog55

For $139000- I can buy an old OKA and have it completely rebuilt; and that vehicle was and is a REAL truck 4*4, only drawback is the poor highway speed but who needs 200kph when we are legally limited to a paltry 110 anyway

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## METRIX

> For $139000- I can buy an old OKA and have it completely rebuilt; and that vehicle was and is a REAL truck 4*4, only drawback is the poor highway speed but who needs 200kph when we are legally limited to a paltry 110 anyway

  Hey, 130 in NT

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## Moondog55

Actually I could see a hybrid version of the OKA, 4 good motors; one on each wheel with that small turbocharged Perkins diesel running at constant optimum engine rev's and a bank of Lithium batteries combined with a large solar roof

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## UseByDate

> Hey, 130 in NT

  Slight modification and might not need to be bothered by radar. :Blush7:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dloH7zbn13g

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## Whitey66

> Righto then, thanks for the clarification, I thought it was a lot more complicated. 
> An old fella going by the name of Samuel Langhorne Clemens made a famous quote.
> Now where have I seen that quote recently, give me a minute, I will get back to you !.

  He actually went by the name of Mark Twain, get one of these too. They will both complement each other  :2thumbsup:

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## METRIX

> He actually went by the name of Mark Twain, get one of these too. They will both complement each other

  That's quite nice does it come in stainless?

----------


## Whitey66

> That's quite nice does it come in stainless?

    No, I already looked  :Smilie:

----------


## METRIX

> No, I already looked

  
Bugger 
Maybe I should speak to my Mate Elon, he might make me one from high tech Stainless.

----------


## John2b

Not stainless, but has the look:    https://www.caravancampingsales.com....m-vans-110728/

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## METRIX

> Not stainless, but has the look:    https://www.caravancampingsales.com....m-vans-110728/

  
Perhaps the trailer they show could be modified, cut a few holes, make a tiny futuristic home ?
It even has matching wheels how clever is that.

----------


## Moondog55

Stainless is so 5 minutes ago; modern campers use Titanium and carbon fibre

----------


## METRIX

> Stainless is so 5 minutes ago; modern campers use Titanium and carbon fibre

  No No No No No. 
Ccrbon fibre is so last year. Cybertruck panels are made from a Stainless / Alloy same as they are using on the SpaceX rockets .

----------


## Uncle Bob

And then there's the camper version:

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## DavoSyd

I'll raise you this version...

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## DavoSyd

I'll raise you this version... Attachment 124551

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## METRIX

This is a good analysis of the Tesla release.

----------


## PhilT2

Is the glass meant to be bulletproof? Just the thing for taking the kids to school....in the US.

----------


## Moondog55

Watching the video I wonder why it has such lousy ground clearance and looks to have a very poor rampover angle

----------


## UseByDate

> Is the glass meant to be bulletproof? Just the thing for taking the kids to school....in the US.

  It depends on the mass and velocity of the bullet and the angle of incidence. The glass might stop an airgun pellet.  :2thumbsup:

----------


## Whitey66

This vehicle is an OH&S Officer's biggest nightmare, look at all them sharp angles to bang body parts on. Not sure how they'll go in a crash either, after seeing how the stainless body can handle being slammed with a sledge hammer without a mark you have to wonder what the crumple zone will be like. I may be wrong but I think he has released this (concept car) to get some cash flow going, 250,000 orders (and counting) x $100 US dollars = 25 Million US Dollars in less than a week. I know this sounds like chicken feed to someone like Elon Musk, but why actually take the $100 pre-order if you don't need cash? Why not just let people put their name down for one?

----------


## Whitey66

> Is the glass meant to be bulletproof? Just the thing for taking the kids to school....in the US.

   Has anyone ever been shot taking their kids to school? I thought the shootings are all done inside the schools  :Frown:

----------


## Whitey66

> Watching the video I wonder why it has such lousy ground clearance and looks to have a very poor rampover angle

   Pretty sure it jacks up with air suspension by an on board air compressor.

----------


## Marc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfqJ...ature=emb_logo

----------


## Uncle Bob

> Pretty sure it jacks up with air suspension by an on board air compressor.

  
Yes it does and apparently can even run air tools. Don't know about a framing nailer though sorry Metrix

----------


## Bedford

*Tesla CyberTruck Killer: Neuron EV Electric Car Is A Pickup Truck And A Camper*         https://fossbytes.com/tesla-cybertru...-truck-camper/

----------


## PhilT2

> Has anyone ever been shot taking their kids to school? I thought the shootings are all done inside the schools

  There has been at least eleven school shootings so far this month in the US. A couple appear to have happened in the car park, one was a drive by and video of other incidents show a body near a vehicle. It's hard to get an accurate picture of what is classed as a school shooting. One of the above incidents is parents shooting it out in the carpark. Two boys, 11 and 14, were shot in a vehicle in a school parking lot but they were not students of that school. In some statistics these are not classed as school shootings. https://everytownresearch.org/gunfire-in-school/#13444 
The right remains committed to opposing the study of the causes of gun violence.

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## METRIX

> Is the glass meant to be bulletproof? Just the thing for taking the kids to school....in the US.

  No, it's armour glass, quite commonly used in military applications, it's very strong but not bulletproof, the door panels are bulletproof they will withstand a 9mm

----------


## METRIX

> *Tesla CyberTruck Killer: Neuron EV Electric Car Is A Pickup Truck And A Camper*   https://fossbytes.com/tesla-cybertru...-truck-camper/

  I believe this is still what they call Vaporware at the moment

----------


## METRIX

> Yes it does and apparently can even run air tools. Don't know about a framing nailer though sorry Metrix

  That's ok UB I use Gas guns anyway  :Smilie:

----------


## John2b

Cadogan must be pleased someone's still watching

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> I believe this is still what they call Vaporware at the moment

  Not a world away from the Cybertruck then!

----------


## METRIX

> Watching the video I wonder why it has such lousy ground clearance and looks to have a very poor rampover angle

  It has air suspension, so it can hunker down for high speed freeway driving, then you can raise it up to 406mm clearance, that's nothing to sneeze about, approach 35 deg departure 28deg.

----------


## Bedford

> I believe this is still what they call Vaporware at the moment

  
Maybe so, but at least you could put a roof rack on it, I can't wait to see one on the CyberTruck.

----------


## METRIX

> This vehicle is an OH&S Officer's biggest nightmare, look at all them sharp angles to bang body parts on. Not sure how they'll go in a crash either, after seeing how the stainless body can handle being slammed with a sledge hammer without a mark you have to wonder what the crumple zone will be like. I may be wrong but I think he has released this (concept car) to get some cash flow going, 250,000 orders (and counting) x $100 US dollars = 25 Million US Dollars in less than a week. I know this sounds like chicken feed to someone like Elon Musk, but why actually take the $100 pre-order if you don't need cash? Why not just let people put their name down for one?

  Not really, think about a regular vehicle accident, which part gets hit the most, the front then the back, the sides will only get hit when you get T-boned, or lose control and wrap it into a pole or tree, so having very strong side impact is a bonus, because current cars achieve this by having side impact protection under the flimsy door skins, pedestrians don't tend to get hit by the sides of cars, its normal to hit them with the bonnet. 
The front won't be made from the same 3mm stuff as it has to crumple in an accident or if a pedestrian jumps out in front of you, that's standard practice. 
Remember Tesla is a car manufacturing company, who manufactures some of the safest cars on the road, it's because of them that other car companies have had to up their game to boost their safety ratings. 
The safety ratings have had to up their rating system to accommodate for the likes of Tesla who have pushed the safety level higher than the other companies. 
The Model 3 was the safest car on the road when released no exceptions, even vehicles worth millions of dollars were less safe than a 40,000 Model 3.
The others have had to do a lot of things to get their cars up to scratch to try and match the Model 3. 
In 2017 the model X was the first SUV to get a perfect 5 safety rating in every category, it had the lowest probability of getting injured of any SUV on the road, and has still boggled the safety crashes as it refuses to roll over like a traditional SUV does very easily, due to is very low centre of gravity, look it up there is plenty of articles explaining this. 
The Model X was second for overall safest car on the road when it was released, the safest car at that time was the Tesla model S, not the million dollar behemoths. 
When the Model 3 was released it took the honours, so I think Tesla know a thing or two about how to build a car to not only be safe but comply with all relevant regulations,  
Irrespective what it looks like on the outside makes no difference to how it will perform in an accident, if this was the case then every car would look identical. 
I wouldn't call it a concept car, but rather a production ready public evaluation car, they are gauging how the market will react to such a radical change, so far it's stirred up a lot of discussion. 
They have intentions of releasing it in 2021, that's not enough time to turn a concept into reality, this has been in development for years, it  just needs the final bits and pieces finishing such as wing mirrors are still mandatory in the US, but with more manufacturers going for electric rear vision mirrors the US needs to update their rules. 
Australia works with the EU system and has done since 2014, so electric rear mirrors are already legal here on new vehicles if factory fitted. 
As usual the US is years behind the rest of the world when it comes to outdated rules for vehicles and measuring anything, even though Metric is the official standard in the US they still refuse to adopt it. 
The $100 is a token amount, otherwise everyone would just put an order in, previous models required a higher amount, and most manufacturers will do this for upcoming new models. 
Firstly so the customer can secure a vehicle, based on when you put the order in, and second it means you are actually interested in genuinely buying it, plus they can gain relatively accurate numbers of who and where the people are that want to buy it. 
Sure the numbers won't always match deliveries but it's better than just saying get online and place an order it cost you nothing, these numbers would then be meaningless. 
Tesla don't need the money they have plenty of it 
Model 3 had 325,000 pre orders, 25% of these were cancelled due to various reason such as wait time, change of mind etc so 243,750 vehicles were actually purchased from the initial 325,000 they received as a pre order. 
This is very impressive considering in June 2003 Tesla didn't even exist.

----------


## METRIX

> Maybe so, but at least you could put a roof rack on it, I can't wait to see one on the CyberTruck.

  Yes, two things that concern me about the Tesla design, the sides on the tray are too high at the front, so having tool boxes, or stuff in there how do you get to this. 
And the rolling cover, this would negate the fitting of carry bars because then the roller door can't work, and the roof is made from glass, so it will be interesting to see what develops over the next year or so.

----------


## John2b

> I believe this is still what they call Vaporware at the moment

  ...or in this case just a bit of 'Musketry' worth 17 points in Scrabble, and a whole lot more as poker chips on the NYSE gambling table...

----------


## METRIX

> Not a world away from the Cybertruck then!

  Neuron EV is a visionary company, by definition this means, "thinking about, or planning the future with imagination and wisdom" they have a lot of fancy visionary concept drawings on their website but not much else. 
In other words, they don't really exist yet, yes they have a few mock-up vehicles but nothing tangible at the moment. 
About them below, if they want to get into the market, they will need to stop being visionary and become reality or they will end up the same as Faraday Future, 
Faraday were going to be the Tesla killer according to the CEO, they started in 2014, and recently filed for bankruptcy with over 2 billion in debt.   *Welcome to Neuron EV, the synergy of people, technology, and our environment through electric vehicles.*

----------


## John2b

> Yes, two things that concern me about the Tesla design, the sides on the tray are too high at the front, so having tool boxes, or stuff in there how do you get to this.

  ...there's a new range of Tesla battery hover tools coming? 
Ford did try to introduce a personal transportation device that would have been handy for tradies back in 1959, but it didn't take off (pun not intended!):    1959 Ford Levacar Mach I - Concepts

----------


## METRIX

> ...there's a new range of Tesla battery hover tools coming?

  Have you seen the stupid Australia gov't is looking to add a kilometre tax to electric vehicle owners, because they are not getting anything from them as they don;t use traditional fuel which is heavily taxed. 
Article below.
State governments could earn hundreds of millions of dollars a year in new revenue by 2025 if they introduced a road user charge for electric vehicles to make up for declining fuel excise revenue, according to a new report.  While the federal government has dithered on the issue of road user charging in recent years  despite the looming hole in its budget revenue  a new report by Infrastructure Partnerships Australia said federal and state governments had five years to introduce a user charge before the market was swamped with affordable electric cars. 
Infrastructure Partnerships Australia chief executive Adrian Dwyer said it was time to act on road user-charging now. *Dean Sewell* 
"While electric cars still only represent a small fraction of new car sales, the future of our light vehicles fleet is electric," Infrastructure Partnerships Australia chief executive Adrian Dwyer said. 
"Once there is an electric car in every street, the opportunity will be lost. 
"Electric vehicle motorists pay nothing at the pump, and only contribute to the road network through state-based road access charges. Under the current system, more electric vehicles will mean less funding for roads." 
The Commonwealth receives more than $11 billion a year in fuel excise, but more efficient vehicles have led to a decline in revenue, which has slumped 20 per cent between 1998 and 2015. The uptake of electric vehicles is set to exacerbate the fall in excise revenue. 
The IPA report to be released on Thursday has suggested a simple, distanced-based user charge of up to 4 cents per kilometre should apply to electric vehicles only. 
Owners would be required to submit odometer readings every six or 12 months to transport authorities when renewing their licence.
Existing petrol-based cars will continue to be taxed the fuel excise, with the revenue still flowing to the federal government. The user charge for electric vehicles could be capped to ensure it didn't exceed the fuel excise.

----------


## METRIX

> ...there's a new range of Tesla battery hover tools coming? 
> Ford did try to introduce a personal transportation device that would have been handy for tradies back in 1959, but it didn't take off (pun not intended!):    1959 Ford Levacar Mach I - Concepts

  It wasn't like the EV1 was it ?

----------


## John2b

Nah, the EV1 had wheels, the Ford Levacars had no visible means of support, unless you saw them from the other side. Years later the same technology was used to create the Star Wars Landspeeder.

----------


## METRIX

> Not a fad, but a real truck.     https://www.paulwakelingram.com.au/v...hoCiRsQAvD_BwE

  
Just looked back at this picture, that front chrome monstrosity bumper looks like a baby's nappy full of Poo ready to drop   :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  
Where is RAM Man, no comment for a while ?

----------


## METRIX

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfqJ...ature=emb_logo

  
Ahh yes John dirty mouth, I knew it wouldn't take long for him to appear on here. 
His views on anything to do with cars is completely worthless, he calls himself an Expert, reality is the Auto industry regards him as a joke. 
He runs a 2 bit brokerage company and tries to drum up business by making ill informed foul mouthed YouTube videos, abusing everyone and everything that is not in line with his extreme views.  
He is not even worth wasting bandwidth on listening to his dribble.

----------


## Marc

What's wrong with you Metrix? Are you on the turps?

----------


## METRIX

> What's wrong with you Metrix? Are you on the turps?

  No I'm on the couch, turps is in the garage.

----------


## METRIX

> What's wrong with you Metrix? Are you on the turps?

  Is this you Marc ?

----------


## John2b

You know BEV cars are an abject failure when, despite your advice about the virtues of never having to go to a petrol station or garage again, your 89 year old mother chooses to buy an ICE sports SUV instead...

----------


## Marc

*7 Reasons It’s Stupid to Buy an Electric Car*  I am certainly not part of the Green movement, unless it is green money, but I do believe in protecting the environment.  I want clean air and clean water.  I want there to be enough energy to get us off of this planet someday.  I hate to see litter and occasionally get involved in picking it up during clean-up days.  I’m amazed in my area that fishermen throw their trash from lunch and their fishing supplies in the water or leave it on the banks of the river.  You’re eating from that water, you morons!  The reason I’m not in the Green movement is because things that are “green” are typically really dumb ideas that don’t do anything to help the environment and sometimes even hurt it.  In general they are things people do to feel better about themselves or get some environmental “street cred” from their hyper-elite friends and neighbors who have more income than sense.  
Basically being Green is just another way to try to stay ahead of the Jones’ and people waste a lot of money doing it.  I also think there are a lot of people using the Green movement to line their own pocketbooks, either by guilting people into giving them money to feel better about themselves or forcing people to give them money through government action (see the banning of the incandescent light bulb and carbon taxes for examples of this).  By far one of the dumbest ideas the Greens have devised, second only perhaps to recycling plastic bottles of water(why not just bring a cup or bottle and get water from the faucet!) is the electric car.  Here are seven reasons why buying an electric car is a stupid idea, both economically and environmentally:  1.  They cost twice as much as gas and diesel cars.  Many people buy electric cars to save money on gas, but with the additional cost of an electric car, it is very unlikely you will ever make the extra money you paid for the car back.  Note that many of us who don’t drive electric cars are helping pay for this since there is a huge subsidy.  Note also that because you must work and consume all sorts of energy to earn the extra money, you’re hurting the environment by paying more.  2.   They drop in price like a rock.  The _Wall Street Journal_ had an article yesterday where they looked at the value of electric cars versus gas cars and found that electric cars declined in value by about 75% in three years versus about 50% for comparable gas cars.  Because they started out costing twice as much, this means an electric car would cost about $10,000 per year for the first three years, versus about $2,500 for a comparable gas car.  Get a year-old gas car and you’ll save even more since there is a huge drop in value when you drive the car off of the lot and it will depreciate slowly after that.  By the way, if you really want an electric car, you can get a used one for about $10,000 and get maybe six years out of it before the batteries go; at that point you might as well junk it because the batteries will cost more than another used car.  And that brings us to the next point.  3.  You’ll get less range every time you recharge.  Just like with your cell phone or your laptop, the batteries in your car last less and less time before needing a recharge each time you recharge them.  The range number you see, which are pretty sad to begin with and unsuitable for many commuters, is only for a new battery.  Put a few years on that battery and your range may be cut in half.  Note that there was also a brilliant idea being circulated to use electric cars as back-up batteries to supply the grid, where your car would be supplying the grid during the day when parked and then recharged in time for you to commute home.  That would make your battery life even shorter.  4.  You’ll get far less miles than with a gas car, and it will be no resale value if you keep it for several years.  Because the batteries are a really expensive item and because they wear out in maybe 6-9 years, don’t expect to get a quarter million miles out of your electric car like you will with today’s gas and diesel cars.  Plus the car will be parked most of the time getting recharged.  With a gas car, when something breaks it is usually only a few hundred dollars to repair, meaning that it is almost always less expensive to maintain an old car that buy a new one, so there will always be someone willing to buy your old car for $1000 or so.  Because the batteries go and they cost more to replace than the cost of a used electric car several years newer, the only place your ten-year old electric car will be heading is to the dump.  And because there is no one fixing up old electric cars, it will likely sit there and rot rather than being used for parts, which brings down your scrap value and isn’t very environmental.  It’s more environmental to drive a gas car for twenty years.   5.  You use more energy driving an electric car than a gas or diesel car.  Electric car makers and enviro-elitists like to quote numbers like 200 or 400 miles per gallon, but that is either a made-up number based on how often you need to stop and put gas in the back-up tank some electric cars have or (more honestly) a calculation of the energy used per mile by an electric car.  The trouble with even the honest calculation, however, is that it starts when the energy is already in the battery, at which point you might have an efficiency of 35%-40%.  It leaves out the losses at the power plant (35-40% efficient), losses in transmission through the lines (maybe 98% efficient), and the losses when you’re charging the battery, (Note how hot it gets – that’s energy losses!)  Include those losses and you’ll be lucky to get 10-12% of the energy in the fuel converted to forward motion of your electric car, versus 22% for an average gas car.  Diesel cars are even more efficient.  Greenies who find this fact out (and can do the analysis) tell themselves that at least the energy could be coming from solar or wind, but right now it is coming from nuclear or coal and there is no viable renewable alternative.  How’s that coal powered car of yours driving?  6.  If they ever catch on, you’ll no longer be paying less per mile.  Most things cost less when more people use them.  Electric cars may well drop in price if a lot more were sold, but the price of power would spike if most people made the switch.  The reason is that the electric grid cannot come anywhere closer to handling the capacity needed if even one out of ten people had a plug-in car, meaning there would be a huge amount of money spent on stringing new lines (at tens of thousands of dollars per foot) that would be tacked onto your bill.  There would also be taxes added to cover the cost of maintaining roads that electric car drivers currently don’t pay for because they are included in the cost of gasoline.  Increasing the demand for electricity would also cause the rates to rise as new power plants are built more slowly than the increase in demand.  Not only would you be paying more to drive your car, you’d also be paying more just to power your house.  If you like driving an electric car, you don’t want to encourage your neighbors to get one because you’re getting a special break right now.  7.  The materials for electric cars are not green in any way.  The materials used for batteries and other electric car parts are extremely nasty to mine and process.  You might think you’re saving the planet by purchasing an electric car or a hybrid, but somewhere in China there are some nasty things being dumped in the drinking water.  https://smallivy.com/2015/03/01/10-r...-electric-car/

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## Marc

*The Inconvenient Truth About Electric Vehicles*  An electric automobile will convert 5-10 percent of the energy in natural gas into motion. A normal vehicle will convert 20-30 percent of the energy in gasoline into motion. That's 3 or 4 times more energy recovered with an internal combustion vehicle than an electric vehicle. Electricity is a specialty product. It's not appropriate for transportation. It looks cheap at this time, but that's because it was designed for toasters, not transportation. Increase the amount of wiring and infrastructure by a factor of a thousand, and it's expensive.   Electricity does not scale up properly to the transportation industry due to its miniscule nature. Sure, a whole lot can be used for something, but at extraordinary expense.  Using electricity as an energy source requires two energy transformation steps, while using petroleum requires only one. With electricity, the original energy, usually chemical energy, must be transformed into electrical energy; and then the electrical energy is transformed into the kinetic energy of motion. With an internal combustion engine, the only transformation step is the conversion of chemical energy to kinetic energy in the combustion chamber.  The difference matters, because there is a lot of energy lost every time it is transformed or used. Electrical energy is harder to handle and loses more in its handling.  The use of electrical energy requires it to move into and out of the space medium (aether) through induction. Induction through the aether medium should be referred to as another form of energy, but physicists sandwich it into the category of electrical energy. Going into and out of the aether through induction loses a lot of energy.   Another problem with electricity is that it loses energy to heat production due to resistance in the wires. A short transmission line will have 20 percent loss built in, and a long line will have 50 percent loss built in. These losses are integrated because reducing the loss by half would require twice as much metal in the wires. Wires have to be optimized for diameter and strength, which means doubling the metal would be doubling the number of transmission lines.  High voltage transformers can achieve 90 percent efficiency with expensive designs, but household level voltages achieve only 50 percent efficiency. Electric motors can get up to 60 percent efficiency, but only at optimum rpms and load. For autos, they average 25 percent efficiency. Gasoline engines get 25 percent efficiency with old-style carburetors and 30 percent with fuel injection, though additional loses can occur.  Applying this brilliant engineering to the problem yields this result: A natural gas electric generating turbine gets 40 percent efficiency. A high voltage transformer gets 90 percent efficiency. A household level transformer gets 50 percent efficiency. A short transmission line gets 20 percent loss, which is 80 percent efficiency. The total is 40 percent x 90 percent x 50 percent x 80 percent = 14.4 percent of the energy recovered before the electrical system does something similar to the gasoline engine in the vehicle.  
Some say the electricity performs a little better in the vehicle, but it's not much. Electricity appears to be easy to handle sending it through wires. But it is the small scale that makes it look cheap. Scaling it up takes a pound of metal for so many electron-miles. Twice as much distance means twice as much metal. Twice as many amps means twice as much metal. Converting the transportation system into an electrical based system would require scaling up the amount of metal and electrical infrastructure by factors of hundreds or thousands. Where are all those lines going to go? They destroy environments. Where is that much natural gas going to come from for the electrical generators?  
There is very little natural gas in existence when using it for a large-scale purpose. Natural gas must be used with solar and wind energy, because only it can be turned on and off easily for backup.*One of the overwhelming facts about electric transportation is the chicken and egg phenomenon. Supposedly, a lot of electric vehicles will create an incentive to create a lot of expensive infrastructure. There are a lot of reasons why none of the goals can be met for such an infrastructure. The basic problem is that electricity will never be appropriate for such demanding use as general transportation, which means there will never be enough chickens or eggs to balance the demand. It's like trying to improve a backpack to such an extent that it will replace a pickup truck. The limitations of muscle metabolism are like the limitations of electrical energy. *  Electrons are not a space-saving form of energy. Electrons have to be surrounded by large amounts of metal. It means electric motors get heavy and large. When cruising around town, the problems are not so noticeable. But the challenges of ruggedness are met far easier with internal combustion engines. Engineers say it is nice to get rid of the drive train with electric vehicles. But in doing so, they add clutter elsewhere, which adds weight, takes up space and messes up the suspension system. Out on the highway, the suspension system is the most critical factor. These problems will prevent electric vehicles from replacing petroleum vehicles for all but specialty purposes. The infrastructure needed for electric vehicles will never exist when limited to specialty purposes. This would be true even with the perfect battery which takes up no space and holds infinite charge.  By Zerohedge.com

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## METRIX

*Marc: This rubbish you posted is dated back from 2015, it's not only irrelevant, it's full of wrong information, based on speculations scaremongering and probably backed by petroleum industry. 
If you want to quote articles, make them relevant to 2019, the Internet is a wonderful thing because it only takes a few seconds to find information.*  *There are a few layout problems in the response, I can't fix them as each time I save it, the errors come back, and the images are all huge now, after saving it once*.   

> *7 Reasons It’s Stupid to Buy an Electric Car* 
>  I am certainly not part of the Green movement, unless it is green money, but I do believe in protecting the environment.  I want clean air and clean water.  I want there to be enough energy to get us off of this planet someday.  I hate to see litter and occasionally get involved in picking it up during clean-up days.  I’m amazed in my area that fishermen throw their trash from lunch and their fishing supplies in the water or leave it on the banks of the river.  You’re eating from that water, you morons! 
>  The reason I’m not in the Green movement is because things that are “green” are typically really dumb ideas that don’t do anything to help the environment and sometimes even hurt it.  In general they are things people do to feel better about themselves or get some environmental “street cred” from their hyper-elite friends and neighbors who have more income than sense.  
> Basically being Green is just another way to try to stay ahead of the Jones’ and people waste a lot of money doing it.  I also think there are a lot of people using the Green movement to line their own pocketbooks, either by guilting people into giving them money to feel better about themselves or forcing people to give them money through government action (see the banning of the incandescent light bulb and carbon taxes for examples of this).  By far one of the dumbest ideas the Greens have devised, second only perhaps to recycling plastic bottles of water(why not just bring a cup or bottle and get water from the faucet!) is the electric car.  Here are seven reasons why buying an electric car is a stupid idea, both economically and environmentally:
>  ​

   

> 1.  They cost twice as much as gas and diesel cars.  Many people buy electric cars to save money on gas, but with the additional cost of an electric car, it is very unlikely you will ever make the extra money you paid for the car back.  Note that many of us who don’t drive electric cars are helping pay for this since there is a huge subsidy.  Note also that because you must work and consume all sorts of energy to earn the extra money, you’re hurting the environment by paying more.

   New analysis from Bloomberg New Energy Finance suggests that from 2022, the cost of electric cars will start to drop below that of internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. 
It has been noted, not least by today’s recent poll issued by the Climate Council, that many drivers are waiting until electric cars are at least as affordable as ICE equivalents before making the switch to electric. They may not have to wait long. 
As noted by Nathaniel Bullard at Bloomberg, ” The crossover point — when electric vehicles become cheaper than their combustion-engine equivalents — will be a crucial moment for the EV market.” 
For this reason, BloombergNEF regularly assesses the cost of purchasing EVs against equivalent ICE models, and Bullard notes that the disparity between EV/ICE pricing is getting smaller every year. 
In this year’s bottom-up analysis, the figures indicate that as soon as 2022, large EVs in the EU will be cheaper than their ICE equivalents. 
The reason behind this is by and large due to falling battery prices – which for years amounted to around half the total cost of an electric car. 
But that percentage is less and less, with batteries in today’s EVs only accounting for a third of the total cost.By 2025, BloombergNEF’s analysis predicts it will be as low as 25%. 
Falling battery costs are not the only contributor to price parity for EVs, author of the BloombergNEF report Nikolas Soulopoulos notes. 
Chassis and body costs will also drop, he says, while the same are likely to rise for ICE vehicles that will need to add measures to comply with stricter emissions targets. 
Additionally, with market demand increasing for electric cars, large-scale production (and hence per unit cost reductions) of electric drivetrains will also become a factor in falling EV prices – in fact, Soulopoulos suggests that by 2030, motors, inverters and power electronics costs could be 25-30% less than today’s costs. 
The figures from BloombergNEF’s analysis adds weight to similar recent reports, such as one from the International Council on Clean Transportation that says that electric cars could be cheaper than petrol/diesel as soon as 2025. 
Another, issued in January by market analysis and research firm Deloitte, says that with 21 million EVs predicted to be on the road by 2030, the total cost of ownership for EVs could be on par with ICE equivalents as soon as 2021 in the UK, and globally by 2022. 
This would be good news for Australians, who are seemingly putting off buying a new car over the next four years while they wait for more electric options. 
With half of 861 Australian voters surveyed in the poll issued today by the Climate Council saying they will wait until electric cars are as affordable as petrol and diesel equivalents, price parity for electric cars won’t come a moment too soon.     

> 2.   They drop in price like a rock.  The _Wall Street Journal_ had an article yesterday where they looked at the value of electric cars versus gas cars and found that electric cars declined in value by about 75% in three years versus about 50% for comparable gas cars.  Because they started out costing twice as much, this means an electric car would cost about $10,000 per year for the first three years, versus about $2,500 for a comparable gas car.  Get a year-old gas car and you’ll save even more since there is a huge drop in value when you drive the car off of the lot and it will depreciate slowly after that.  By the way, if you really want an electric car, you can get a used one for about $10,000 and get maybe six years out of it before the batteries go; at that point you might as well junk it because the batteries will cost more than another used car.  And that brings us to the next point.

   They don't drop like a rock, it been shown they have been depreciating quicker than petrol or diesel because the technology is changing so quickly, that people are preferring to buy a new latest model rather than a second hand one. 
 Quote:
The problem is they just keep outdoing themselves. This is a new concept for both the automotive industry and consumers who could, in the past, buy a car knowing its technology would not rapidly change in three to five years.  
In just a few short years electric-powered machines have jumped forward in leaps and bounds in a similar fashion to how smartphones have advanced in the electronics industry.
 Travelling range has dramatically improved as battery prices have fallen, meaning manufacturers can produce more for less. But it also means what was once state-of-the-art in the market is now a less valuable item, even in Australia where supply is limited.      

> 3.  You’ll get less range every time you recharge.  Just like with your cell phone or your laptop, the batteries in your car last less and less time before needing a recharge each time you recharge them.  The range number you see, which are pretty sad to begin with and unsuitable for many commuters, is only for a new battery.  Put a few years on that battery and your range may be cut in half.  Note that there was also a brilliant idea being circulated to use electric cars as back-up batteries to supply the grid, where your car would be supplying the grid during the day when parked and then recharged in time for you to commute home.  That would make your battery life even shorter.

  Cut in half in a few years rubbish, real life data shows otherwise, some cars such as the leaf could be true because of bad battery design.        

> 4.  You’ll get far less miles than with a gas car, and it will be no resale value if you keep it for several years.  Because the batteries are a really expensive item and because they wear out in maybe 6-9 years, don’t expect to get a quarter million miles out of your electric car like you will with today’s gas and diesel cars.  Plus the car will be parked most of the time getting recharged.  With a gas car, when something breaks it is usually only a few hundred dollars to repair, meaning that it is almost always less expensive to maintain an old car that buy a new one, so there will always be someone willing to buy your old car for $1000 or so.  Because the batteries go and they cost more to replace than the cost of a used electric car several years newer, the only place your ten-year old electric car will be heading is to the dump.  And because there is no one fixing up old electric cars, it will likely sit there and rot rather than being used for parts, which brings down your scrap value and isn’t very environmental.  It’s more environmental to drive a gas car for twenty years.

  Below is a good article with "real" data not made up garbage, No 4 contains so many lies it would take me 10 pages to disprove every lie in this.  https://www.2degreesinstitute.org/reports/comparing_fuel_and_maintenance_costs_of_electric_a  nd_gas_powered_vehicles_in_canada.pdf        

> 5: You use more energy driving an electric car than a gas or diesel car.  Electric car makers and enviro-elitists like to quote numbers like 200 or 400 miles per gallon, but that is either a made-up number based on how often you need to stop and put gas in the back-up tank some electric cars have or (more honestly) a calculation of the energy used per mile by an electric car.  The trouble with even the honest calculation, however, is that it starts when the energy is already in the battery, at which point you might have an efficiency of 35%-40%.  It leaves out the losses at the power plant (35-40% efficient), losses in transmission through the lines (maybe 98% efficient), and the losses when you’re charging the battery, (Note how hot it gets – that’s energy losses!)  Include those losses and you’ll be lucky to get 10-12% of the energy in the fuel converted to forward motion of your electric car, versus 22% for an average gas car.  Diesel cars are even more efficient.  Greenies who find this fact out (and can do the analysis) tell themselves that at least the energy could be coming from solar or wind, but right now it is coming from nuclear or coal and there is no viable renewable alternative.  How’s that coal powered car of yours driving?

        

> 6.  If they ever catch on, you’ll no longer be paying less per mile.  Most things cost less when more people use them.  Electric cars may well drop in price if a lot more were sold, but the price of power would spike if most people made the switch.  The reason is that the electric grid cannot come anywhere closer to handling the capacity needed if even one out of ten people had a plug-in car, meaning there would be a huge amount of money spent on stringing new lines (at tens of thousands of dollars per foot) that would be tacked onto your bill.  There would also be taxes added to cover the cost of maintaining roads that electric car drivers currently don’t pay for because they are included in the cost of gasoline.  Increasing the demand for electricity would also cause the rates to rise as new pow

    

> r plants are built more slowly than the increase in demand. Not only would you be paying more to drive your car, you’d also be paying more just to power your house. If you like driving an electric car, you don’t want to encourage your neighbors to get one because you’re getting a special break right now.

    I love how scientific this article is, Quote "*y**ou don’t want to encourage your* *neighbours** to get one because you’re getting a special break right now.*" Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha 
 Global sales of pure electric vehicles soar by 92% in H1 2019 
 During the first six months of the year, global sales of pure electric vehicles increased by 92% to 765,000 units. This total is the volume sold in 41 markets around the world, so the bigger picture (all markets) would equal around 780,000 vehicles. This is a substantial increase considering the challenging situation facing the vehicle industry worldwide.      

> 7.  The materials for electric cars are not green in any way.  The materials used for batteries and other electric car parts are extremely nasty to mine and process.  You might think you’re saving the planet by purchasing an electric car or a hybrid, but somewhere in China there are some nasty things being dumped in the drinking water.

    New technology always makes lots of people uncomfortable. It’s just a part of human nature to fear the unknown. That’s the way it was with radios, telephones, and air travel before we got used to those newfangled things.Unfortunately, there are always some people who spread false information about new technology, especially if it threatens to interrupt their source of income. That’s precisely what is happening with the electric car revolution right now.  
The people who have become wealthy selling cars and the fuels that make them go are petrified that electric cars are going to deprive them of the enormous profits they are used to, so they manufacture falsehoods designed to scare people away from considering purchasing one.  A favourite fib is that electric cars pollute the environment just as much as conventional cars do. Let’s blow that myth out of the water right now by looking at the facts, not the lies the car companies and fossil fuel interests want you to believe. The Union of Concerned Scientists has done a thorough study about this that took two years to complete.  The scientists wanted to know exactly how many emissions conventional cars were responsible for and how many emissions electric cars were responsible for. It’s conclusion? “We found that battery electric cars generate _half_ the emissions of the average comparable gasoline car, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for.” _Half_.Let’s take that last part first.  
Those who oppose electric cars like to say that electric cars create more emissions during manufacturing than conventional cars do. And you know what? They’re right! The UCS found that “Manufacturing a midsized EV with an 84-mile range results in about 15% more emissions than manufacturing an equivalent gasoline vehicle. For larger, longer-range EVs that travel more than 250 miles per charge, the manufacturing emissions can be as much as 68% higher. 
”Wow! 68% higher. That’s a lot, huh? So, it’s true, electric cars are dirtier than conventional cars, right? Well, actually, no. The UCS report goes on to say, “These differences change as soon as the cars are driven. EVs are powered by electricity, which is generally a cleaner energy source than gasoline. Battery electric cars make up for their higher manufacturing emissions within eighteen months of driving — shorter range models can offset the extra emissions within 6 months — and continue to outperform gasoline cars until the end of their lives.” For more information on this topic, watch this short video:     That brings us to emissions created by driving. For more information on that, we turn to a report from the Vehicle Technologies Office of the US Department of Energy. It says:“An all-electric vehicle (EV) does not produce emissions from the tailpipe, but there are upstream emissions (also called well-to-wheel emissions) of greenhouse gases from electricity production.  
Using electricity production data by source and state, the Alternative Fuels Data Center has estimated the annual carbon dioxide (CO2)-equivalent emissions of a typical EV.“EVs charging in Vermont are estimated to produce the fewest emissions – oil and gas make up only 1.2% of the electricity sources in the state while cleaner sources such as nuclear, hydro, biomass, wind, and solar make up the rest.  
West Virginia’s electricity production is 95.7% from coal, making it the state with the most well-to-wheel CO2-equivalent emissions.“The national average is 4,815 pounds of CO2-equivalent emissions for a typical EV per year as compared to the average gasoline-powered car which produces 11,435 pounds of CO2-equivalent emissions annually.”So, there it is.  
On average, a conventional car creates more the _twice as much_ carbon pollution as an electric car. Even in the state that gets almost all of its electricity from burning coal, an EV still pollutes less than a typical conventional car. Assuming a 10 year useful life, an average conventional car will spew out 66,000 pounds more carbon pollution than an average electric vehicle. That’s _33 tons_, folks.  
To see which states have the highest and lowest emissions associated with electric cars, check out this graphic from the Department of Energy:The Union of Concerned Scientist also has a helpful graphic that shows how many miles per gallon your conventional car would need to get in order to equal the emissions performance of an electric vehicle. That number ranges from a low of 35 mpg in some areas to 135 mpg in upstate New York.  When either a conventional car or an electric car reaches the end of its useful life, both require about the same amount of energy to dispose of. But electric car batteries can be repurposed for other non-automotive uses like residential and commercial electrical storage, or the materials inside can be recycled for new batteries or other uses, which means the batteries will continue to reduce the amount of carbon dioxide going into the atmosphere long after the car they started out powering is no longer on the road. It’s been said that 95-99% of the material in EV batteries can be recycled.  
Tesla plans to take back batteries, take them apart, and use the materials to create new batteries all in the same factory. Well-to-wheel emissions studies pretty much never take this reuse or recycling into account.Another important point to remember is that many drivers can put solar panels on their roof to power their electric cars.  
In fact, _CleanTechnica_ research has found 28–42% of electric car drivers have rooftop solar, and another newer report of ours pinned it down to 32%. Of course, it all depends on regional and individual factors (YMMV), but a large portion of today’s electric car drivers are indeed driving on sunlight, not coal.So, where do these myths come from? A lot of them can be traced directly to Charles and David Koch, the dynamic duo of disaster who like to use their considerable wealth to buy Congressmen and governors who will do their bidding.  
Those fun-loving Koch boys are the same people funding the war on climate science. But now that you have the necessary information, you don’t have to fall for their tricks anymore.The truth of the matter is that electric cars pollute far less than conventional cars over their lifetime. If you have read this far, maybe it’s time to experience an electric car for yourself. People who don’t like electric cars tend to be people who have never _tried_ an electric car. Put your fears aside and take a test drive today. You might be surprised to find how nice driving an electric car makes you feel.For more information, visit the CleanTechnica Answer Box to get answers to various cleantech myths, or visit this electric car resource page to get all your questions about electric cars answered.  
You may also want to check out: “30 Reasons Your Next Car Should Be Electric.”

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## SilentButDeadly

There you go Metrix...someone has fixed the Cybertruck already

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## John2b

> *This rubbish ... (is) not only irrelevant, it's full of wrong information, based on speculations scaremongering and probably backed by petroleum industry.*

  True. But refuting false information is like trying to play chess with a pigeon, which will knock the pieces over, crap on the board, strut around like it won, then fly back to its flock to brag about how the opponent didn't have a clue.

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## METRIX

> There you go Metrix...someone has fixed the Cybertruck already

  
Interesting looks like the Mansory version, doesn't look too different to the ones below, 2019 voted ugliest  vehicles on the road.

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## Marc

*From this*    *To this *  
Dodge has always made the best trucks. 
Our pathetic scaled down versions of piffy utes, are what we are lumped with and got used to, but there is nothing like the full size version.
As for "looks", that is only for those who care about posing for the mirror.   :Smilie:  
The so called Cybertruck looks like a SS fridge that had wheels added to it.
In my view of course. 
I wonder if they fitted new bullet proof glass for the Mexican cartels.

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## Marc

Too much politcal garbage Metrix.  
I suppose this is also false: 
An electric automobile will convert 5-10 percent of the energy in natural gas into motion. A normal vehicle will convert 20-30 percent of the energy in gasoline into motion. That's 3 or 4 times more energy recovered with an internal combustion vehicle than an electric vehicle. Electricity is a specialty product. It's not appropriate for transportation. It looks cheap at this time, but that's because it was designed for toasters, not transportation. Increase the amount of wiring and infrastructure by a factor of a thousand, and it's expensive.  Electricity is not the future of transportation unless we invent a cheaper and more reliable way to produce it and transport it. Electric cars may be the fad of the day, but they will make electricity for home and business more expensive if they ever take off in numbers.  I hope they don't or that we actually find something that produces energy rather than stealing it from sources that are essential for everything else and blow it up in the process for the benefit of being fashionably stupid.

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## UseByDate

Electric car compatibility problems. :Doh:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRGaoppp9ko

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## METRIX

> Too much politcal garbage Metrix.  
> I suppose this is also false: 
> An electric automobile will convert 5-10 percent of the energy in natural gas into motion. A normal vehicle will convert 20-30 percent of the energy in gasoline into motion. That's 3 or 4 times more energy recovered with an internal combustion vehicle than an electric vehicle. Electricity is a specialty product. It's not appropriate for transportation. It looks cheap at this time, but that's because it was designed for toasters, not transportation. Increase the amount of wiring and infrastructure by a factor of a thousand, and it's expensive.  Electricity is not the future of transportation unless we invent a cheaper and more reliable way to produce it and transport it. Electric cars may be the fad of the day, but they will make electricity for home and business more expensive if they ever take off in numbers.  I hope they don't or that we actually find something that produces energy rather than stealing it from sources that are essential for everything else and blow it up in the process for the benefit of being fashionably stupid.

  The only political garbage is the false information being plastered everywhere by petroleum and coal advocates. 
You started this topic in the hopes everyone would see your silly comments as truth and agree with you, sorry to say the majority of what you have posted here is either false information, is not backed up by any meaningful research or just comical, such as the very first picture you started this entire topic with. 
Yes we are all entitled to our own opinions and views on everything, from both side of a discussion, but if information that's put up as gospel without any real evidence to justify the information is irrelevant and just hearsay.  
And yes the information you quoted above is false, why don't you put where you sourced that information from being *oilprice.com*, take anything they say with a grain of salt. 
BTW: we do have a cheaper and easier way to generate electricity it's called localised solar / battery. 
I can see in the future we will all have a solar / battery system installed at our house, power will be generated during the day to charge the house battery, excess goes to the grid, when you come home you plug the electric car in and top it up with the battery, if the battery does not have enough juice to fully charge the car then you borrow from the grid. 
This is not political garbage, this is already a reality and working, then there is no need to perform massive upgrades to the grid because there won't be the demand on the system you make out there will be. 
No this won't work for everybody such as those that live in apartments or inner city on street parking, so other alternatives are already in the testing for these situations. 
I guess the below is also false, because people make out they are doing hundreds of kilometres every day and an electric car cannot possibly be viable, and if I was to charge it up at home it's going to cost a fortune blah blah, nothing is further from the truth. 
The data below has been sourced from 255,031 million kilometres travelled on Australian roads during 2018, as you will see the average car is only driven 36.4Km per day in 2018, the biggest hurdle to electric cars is range anxiety, drivers are stuck in the mentality of it has to do 500km per charge and it must charge in 10 seconds, the truth is in reality nobody needs that much range every day, it's a car not a truck you'r driving interstate every day. 
This is why the manufacturers are pushing so hard for range on their cars, and quicker charging times because that's what the average Joe has been told they need.   https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...rs-driven.html

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## METRIX

> Electric car compatibility problems.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRGaoppp9ko

  
Not as bad a dumb humans let loose around Petrol

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## UseByDate

Anatomy of the electric car charger connection.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZBsOud4O9Q
 I bet it inhibits driving while still connected.

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## DavoSyd

> Anatomy of the electric car charger connection.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZBsOud4O9Q
>  I bet it inhibits driving while still connected.

  love the first comment!   
edit - i meant this one: The best way to get an answer on the internet is not to ask a question, but to say something incorrect.

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## John2b

> I suppose this is also false: 
> An electric automobile will convert 5-10 percent of the energy in natural gas into motion. A normal vehicle will convert 20-30 percent of the energy in gasoline into motion. That's 3 or 4 times more energy recovered with an internal combustion vehicle than an electric vehicle.

   Correct Marc, that statement is false. An ICE powered vehicle loses 65 - 80% of the energy in the fuel through friction, pumping and heat losses before it even gets to the crankshaft, whereas an BEV will lose only around 10 - 15 % of the stored in the battery as waste heat from the DC controller and motor before the output shaft.

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## Marc

I see. 
Posting pages of unrelated gobbly gook does not answer this simple fact.   

> An electric automobile will convert 5-10 percent of the energy in natural gas into motion. A normal vehicle will convert 20-30 percent of the energy in gasoline into motion. That's 3 or 4 times more energy recovered with an internal combustion vehicle than an electric vehicle.

  If you add the fact that dementia has set in and we can not increase our energy production unless it is unreliable, expensive or both, you have the perfect recipe for disaster. Black out to serve the environmentally unfriendly stupid electric car.
But who cares right? electric cars are "the future".

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## Marc

> Correct Marc, that statement is false. An ICE powered vehicle loses 65 - 80% of the energy in the fuel through friction, pumping and heat losses before it even gets to the crankshaft, whereas an BEV will lose only around 10 - 15 % of the stored in the battery as waste heat before the output shaft.

  I see that qualifications are no barrier to selective hearing ... or reading. Please, read my previous post ( #885) Even i can understand it. 
It is about energy CONVERSION. From the generator's fuel to the electric car motion, and from the car's fuel to the petrol/diesel car motion. 
The losses are massive in the electric vehicle, but it is easy to mask with a bit of smoke and smiling faces.  
Aaah the future! Where everything flies, cars, pigs, and stupidity.

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## DavoSyd

> Please, read my previous post ( #885) Even i can understand it.

  you can understand it?  
even though you didn't write any of it yourself?  
very impressive!!

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## Marc



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## Marc

Browse: Home / 2019 / November / 03 / Global Sales Of Electric Cars “Collapsed” Says New Report By PricewaterhouseCoopers… -15.7% In China *Global Sales Of Electric Cars “Collapsed” Says New Report By PricewaterhouseCoopers… -15.7% In China*_By P Gosselin on 3. November 2019_ Share this...   *Sales of so-called environmentally friendly electric cars have been slumping, despite all the Friday protests and loud cries for cleaner mobility.*
Citing a report released by PricewaterhouseCoopers, German news portal t-online.de here reports how “suddenly demand is in the basement: even in China – the world’s largest market for e-cars – sales figures are collapsing”.
It turns out electric cars, with their long charging times, short range and surprisingly high CO2 lifetime budget, are still not attractive enough to consumers in these times of “climate crisis”.
Though sales have picked up in Germany somewhat, but that it’s still “at a very low level,” T-Online reports. *Climate protests, hysteria, fail to sway*
Germany is one of the leading Fridays For Future protest countries worldwide, with tens of thousands of protesters turning out weekly. Yet that has not translated into any meaningful change in terms of electric car sales. People have not been swayed by all the climate hysteria and remain uncomfortable with all the technical and environmental drawbacks of plug-in electric cars. Read here. *Big markets dive*
T-Online sees the really big trouble for electric cars elsewhere, that is in the markets where they have been traditionally strong: China, Norway and the USA. The German news site reports: “And that’s where the wind has changed, according to a report by management consultants PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC).”  *Global: plug in electric fell 23.8%!*
“According to the report, 321,573 battery-powered electric cars were sold worldwide in the third quarter of 2019. This is a decline of 2.8 percent compared to the previous year. Sales of plug-in hybrids even fell by a quarter (23.8 percent) to 102,097 units sold. There are various reasons for this,” reports T-Online. *Huge sales drop in China*
T-Online reports that the world’s largest market for electric cars, China, “collapsed drastically between July and September 2019.” Adding: ” Sales of electric cars fell by 15.7 percent, of hybrid cars by 20 percent and of plug-in hybrids by as much as 27.3 percent.” *20% Q3 drop in US*
Things are not better in the USA. Recently S&P Global reported: “Sales in the US plug-in vehicle market in Q3 2019 were down roughly 20% compared with Q3 2018, but year-to-date sales for 2019 were slightly ahead of sales through the third quarter in 2018.” *Future of electric plug-ins uncertain*
Overall there’s growing uncertainty when it comes to the future of mobility and as to which technology will emerge as the most viable, and when.
Countries worldwide are woefully lagging behind in the installation of electric car infrastructure. Policymakers are thus uneasy about investing hundreds of billions into an electric car infrastructure, knowing that it may well be made obsolete by other fuels, such as hydrogen. Investment delays in turn lead to delays in sales. Share this...

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## John2b

> I see that qualifications are no barrier to selective hearing ... or reading. Please, read my previous post ( #885) Even i can understand it. 
> It is about energy CONVERSION. From the generator's fuel to the electric car motion, and from the car's fuel to the petrol/diesel car motion. 
> The losses are massive in the electric vehicle, but it is easy to mask with a bit of smoke and smiling faces.  
> Aaah the future! Where everything flies, cars, pigs, and stupidity.

  OK so lets compare apples with apples. From the car's fuel to an ICE vehicle's motion, the conversion efficiency is probably about 12-20% in real life, but that s_till excludes the energy lost in oil extraction, transportation and refinement_. And because all of the 'easy oil' has already been extracted, the EROI (energy returned on energy invested) for petroleum oil is already quite poor and rapidly deteriorating. 
As attentive readers of this thread know, the energy conversion efficiency of BEVs substantially exceeds that of fossil fuel ICE powered cars even when the electricity for charging the vehicle comes from brown coal furnaces boiling water to make steam for turbine to turn an electricity generator. Gas has a greater conversion efficiency of stored energy to electricity than coal. 
Which ever way the energy pie is carved up or where the energy comes from, a BEV uses much less energy than an equivalent ICE powered vehicle in the same circumstances. That means from source, conversion and use! 
It really is a no brainer - the statement is blatantly and comprehensively false.

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## John2b

> The losses are massive in the electric vehicle, but it is easy to mask with a bit of smoke and smiling faces.

  Please list what these massive losses are.

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## John2b

> *Huge sales drop in China*
> T-Online reports that the world’s largest market for electric cars, China, “collapsed drastically between July and September 2019.” Adding: ” Sales of electric cars fell by 15.7 percent, of hybrid cars by 20 percent and of plug-in hybrids by as much as 27.3 percent.”[/COLOR]

  Whilst ICE vehicle sales in China have been declining for 18 months, while BEVs sales have been growing until very recently.

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## UseByDate

> love the first comment!   
> edit - i meant this one: The best way to get an answer on the internet is not to ask a question, but to say something incorrect.

  LOL. I must try that sometime. :Smilie:

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## UseByDate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDn2mG9PUU  
 Stated fact at 3:13 
 UK oil refineries consume 23.3 GWh of energy a day which is enough energy to power 4.3 million electric cars in the UK.

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## Marc

> *The Inconvenient Truth About Electric Vehicles*  An electric automobile will convert 5-10 percent of the energy in natural gas into motion. A normal vehicle will convert 20-30 percent of the energy in gasoline into motion. That's 3 or 4 times more energy recovered with an internal combustion vehicle than an electric vehicle. Electricity is a specialty product. It's not appropriate for transportation. It looks cheap at this time, but that's because it was designed for toasters, not transportation. Increase the amount of wiring and infrastructure by a factor of a thousand, and it's expensive.   Electricity does not scale up properly to the transportation industry due to its miniscule nature. Sure, a whole lot can be used for something, but at extraordinary expense.  Using electricity as an energy source requires two energy transformation steps, while using petroleum requires only one. With electricity, the original energy, usually chemical energy, must be transformed into electrical energy; and then the electrical energy is transformed into the kinetic energy of motion. With an internal combustion engine, the only transformation step is the conversion of chemical energy to kinetic energy in the combustion chamber.  The difference matters, because there is a lot of energy lost every time it is transformed or used. Electrical energy is harder to handle and loses more in its handling.  The use of electrical energy requires it to move into and out of the space medium (aether) through induction. Induction through the aether medium should be referred to as another form of energy, but physicists sandwich it into the category of electrical energy. Going into and out of the aether through induction loses a lot of energy.   Another problem with electricity is that it loses energy to heat production due to resistance in the wires. A short transmission line will have 20 percent loss built in, and a long line will have 50 percent loss built in. These losses are integrated because reducing the loss by half would require twice as much metal in the wires. Wires have to be optimized for diameter and strength, which means doubling the metal would be doubling the number of transmission lines.  High voltage transformers can achieve 90 percent efficiency with expensive designs, but household level voltages achieve only 50 percent efficiency. Electric motors can get up to 60 percent efficiency, but only at optimum rpms and load. For autos, they average 25 percent efficiency. Gasoline engines get 25 percent efficiency with old-style carburetors and 30 percent with fuel injection, though additional loses can occur.  Applying this brilliant engineering to the problem yields this result: A natural gas electric generating turbine gets 40 percent efficiency. A high voltage transformer gets 90 percent efficiency. A household level transformer gets 50 percent efficiency. A short transmission line gets 20 percent loss, which is 80 percent efficiency. The total is 40 percent x 90 percent x 50 percent x 80 percent = 14.4 percent of the energy recovered before the electrical system does something similar to the gasoline engine in the vehicle.  
> Some say the electricity performs a little better in the vehicle, but it's not much. Electricity appears to be easy to handle sending it through wires. But it is the small scale that makes it look cheap. Scaling it up takes a pound of metal for so many electron-miles. Twice as much distance means twice as much metal. Twice as many amps means twice as much metal. Converting the transportation system into an electrical based system would require scaling up the amount of metal and electrical infrastructure by factors of hundreds or thousands. Where are all those lines going to go? They destroy environments. Where is that much natural gas going to come from for the electrical generators?  
> There is very little natural gas in existence when using it for a large-scale purpose. Natural gas must be used with solar and wind energy, because only it can be turned on and off easily for backup.*One of the overwhelming facts about electric transportation is the chicken and egg phenomenon. Supposedly, a lot of electric vehicles will create an incentive to create a lot of expensive infrastructure. There are a lot of reasons why none of the goals can be met for such an infrastructure. The basic problem is that electricity will never be appropriate for such demanding use as general transportation, which means there will never be enough chickens or eggs to balance the demand. It's like trying to improve a backpack to such an extent that it will replace a pickup truck. The limitations of muscle metabolism are like the limitations of electrical energy. *  Electrons are not a space-saving form of energy. Electrons have to be surrounded by large amounts of metal. It means electric motors get heavy and large. When cruising around town, the problems are not so noticeable. But the challenges of ruggedness are met far easier with internal combustion engines. Engineers say it is nice to get rid of the drive train with electric vehicles. But in doing so, they add clutter elsewhere, which adds weight, takes up space and messes up the suspension system. Out on the highway, the suspension system is the most critical factor. These problems will prevent electric vehicles from replacing petroleum vehicles for all but specialty purposes. The infrastructure needed for electric vehicles will never exist when limited to specialty purposes. This would be true even with the perfect battery which takes up no space and holds infinite charge.  By Zerohedge.com

  May be you need to read this again and address the points made by the author. All energy production worth mentioning uses fuel. Be it coal, gas, nuclear diesel something. of course there is the minuscule proportion of your beloved solar and wind where no one measures the massive pollution and energy used to build mine etc, not to mention the additional remote installation of poles and wires and transformers to transport this so called "free" energy, but we all know you ignore conveniently this side of the equation for obvious doctrinal reasons. 
Oh yes, then there is Hydro, but thanks to the watermelons religion, we can not build dams.  :Frown:  
Compare fuel at the generator plant all the way to the wheels of the electric car. Then compare fuel in the tank or if you want at the petrol station all the way to the petrol car wheels. 
The energy cost of making the fuel available to each may complicate things because there are different sources. Obviously coal would be the winner hands down, and that is probably why the author has used an example with gas, that could be compared directly if the car is powered by CNG. 
Proposing "electric vehicles for all" without massive improvements in the electricity supply and a clear pricing policy that separates household power, business power and transport power, is the same that councils do when allowing development of vast rural areas for housing without infrastructure. Let's make money and screw the consumer. 
It is one thing to live on a small island on a rural setting and charge your own car with whatever means available and a completely different one, to propose this as a solution for everyone based on fallacies, appeals to emotions and good looks. 
We all want better cars, lower transport costs, free parking and uncluttered freeways, clean air and good music on the radio as we drive.  
To achieve that with electric cars we need to increase the power supply tenfold, build a massive number of nuclear or coal plants, dams or other means of producing many times more power than we have available today. And as you probably know this will not happen in our lifetime. Promoting electric cars will only detract from our current energy supply leading to blackouts, massive price hikes and the defenestration of business who rely on reliable electrical supply. Sure the Chinese will be grateful that we allow more business to migrate to their shores. i am sure that is not in our best interest.

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## John2b

> May be you need to read this again and address the points made by the author.

  Anyone who understands the underlying physics can see straight through all the false claims in your post, Marc, and anyone who doesn't understand the underlying physics cannot know what is correct and what is not. 
Making these kinds of tommyrot claims is a standard obfuscation technique of the fossil energy industry lobby. Re-posting that gibberish does not make it any truer.

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## Moondog55

All this talk and very little mention of using the existing fuel supply infrastructure for Hydrogen. We could all keep our big fossil fuel guzzling V-8s that sound so good by using solar to split water and simply converting to Hydrogen fuel. Or using Hydrogen to stretch Methane or something even totally different.
The future will probably be very different to our current thinking but might include all of these technologies in a multiple fuel package that may or may not use batteries for storing electrical energy now that high density megawatt capacitors seem a possibility

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## METRIX



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## METRIX



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## Marc

Standard dogmatic reply where "everyone' knows this to be false but me.  
And is it coincidence that the most fervorous supporters of all things green, climate change balloony, and anti business professional protesters are of the left confession? 
Who is the clear winner of this conflict, capturing all the associated industries and doing none of what is requested from the west?
China, a communist totalitarian regime that competes for the first position in human right abuse, environmental vandalism and geopolitical abuse and piracy. 
It is like cutting your nose to spite your face.
But hey, where there is "belief" there is no rational.
Your replies somehow remind me of what the priest tells the common sinners down below. Same kind of supporting evidence. 
Oh well. It is all in good fun i suppose.

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## John2b

My personal views are irrelevant and most often misrepresented by others of a different view anyway. What delineates me is that I take the time to refute nonsense when I see it in a public forum; many others who work in engineering can't be bothered because they know they are going to be attacked and misrepresented anyway. 
The laws of physics and thermodynamics that define how things like internal combustion engines work also disprove many of the claims made in your correspondent's post. Those laws apply universally, not just when someone wants them to.

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## Spottiswoode

I’ve been out of this thread a few days. The last couple of pages have been a wild ride! 
what I see time and again in the energy consumption argument is that electric cars get compared from generator to wheels while ICE cars get compared from the fuel being in the tank to the wheels. The whole extraction and refining energy cost seems to be conveniently omitted.  
Once the energy is in the vehicle (petrol, diesel or electricity) an electric vehicle is in the order of 80% efficient, ICE is closer to 20% efficient. Coal fired electricity once distributed is around 40% efficient which brings the comparison closer to parity between the two vehicles. Ie coal fired electric vehicles run about the same efficiency as ICE vehicles until you start to include extracting, refining and distributing fossil fuels.  
unfortunately in this current time there is an awful lot of propaganda on both sides which they gullible take with both hands a preach to whoever they can find, actively undermining true progress. Greed sustains the right while the left are dismissed as anti - everything. Meeting in the middle ground is the only way forward.  
Forming a plan to transition away from fossil fuels and excessive consumption to a more sustainable future for the environment, and economy seems out of reach when such diametrically opposed sides can’t even meet at the table. We are royally screwed.

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## phild01

> Once the energy is in the vehicle (petrol, diesel or electricity) an electric vehicle is in the order of 80% efficient, ICE is closer to 20% efficient. Coal fired electricity once distributed is around 40% efficient which brings the comparison closer to parity between the two vehicles. Ie coal fired electric vehicles run about the same efficiency as ICE vehicles until you start to include extracting, refining and distributing fossil fuels.

  For my 2 cents, and what I have said before, when battery technology takes a flying leap ev's will rule due to that efficiency factor and cost of manufacture and maintenance being far cheaper. My first battery drills were mediocre and always needed a power drill. These days the battery drill rules thanks to improved battery technology. What I have said before and what Marc has said, the electricity supply needs to be available and it would be enormous.

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## John2b

> Once the energy is in the vehicle (petrol, diesel or electricity) an electric vehicle is in the order of 80% efficient, ICE is closer to 20% efficient.

  I think your figures are close to the mark, however there is another factor in the BEV's favour. When an ICE vehicle is stationary, coasting or braking is is still burning a significant amount of fuel. A BEV uses an insignificant amount of energy when stationary or coasting and regenerates electricity when braking. That adds about another 25% to the efficiency of a BEV in a comparison of energy to distance. 
For example 6 litres of petrol in my Honda generator gives enough charge for 150 kilometres of range, despite the inefficiencies of all of the inherent energy transformations involved. That's equal to 25 kpl.

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## phild01

> For example 6 litres of petrol in my Honda generator gives enough charge for 150 kilometres of range, despite the inefficiencies of all of the inherent energy transformations involved. That's equal to 25 kpl.

  Interesting, I wonder what a more powerful electric SUV 4wd could expect to give from my generator when towing. Maybe 50km from a 10 hr charge :Confused:  at a a cost of $9.

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## Marc

> what I see time and again in the energy consumption argument is that electric cars get compared from generator to wheels while ICE cars get compared from the fuel being in the tank to the wheels. The whole extraction and refining energy cost seems to be conveniently omitted.

  I call BS on that. The generator's fuel extraction and refining energy cost is also not counted. That is why the comparison I posted is for a gas powered generator to make the comparison possible. 
But of course in a religious dogmatic debate, the belief system is what dominates even those who should know better than confusing the argument for their own purposes.
You can argue and pontificate from the marble tower all you want. The fact remains that fuel contains chemical energy that is converted to motion in a somehow relatively efficient way in petrol or diesel engines.
Electricity is created in the same fashion by converting chemical energy into electricity at the generator end, but then needs to be pushed along very expensive wires and transformers and then reused once more to turn the wheel via a battery and motor. This long winded process is way more inefficient than any petrol or diesel engine if you compare energy for the generator and energy for the petrol car. 
The idea that you can compare the refining of petrol or diesel fuel to the production and transportation of electricity to the power point is disingenuous and only reaffirms that this is a dogmatic debate just like climate change. 
If you had only one source of energy. Say diesel fuel. and one objective, say turning a wheel or a shaft. If you used the diesel fuel to produce electricity and then charged a battery to then turn a motor that turns the wheel ... or had another system that uses an ordinary diesel engine to burn the fuel to turn the wheels, you would be miles ahead with the diesel engine. 
Diesel electric systems have been around for eons and their inefficiency is well known and they exist only because of secondary advantages, fuel efficiency being not one of them. 
An electric car is exactly that, a diesel electric system only a bit more distant and with extra inefficiency built in for good measure, so actually worse than a diesel electric system. 
If you want to add a bit of humour to the above situation, imagine that you want to convince others that you produce electricity and charge a battery and then use an electric motor to turn the shaft because in such way you make less pollution than using the diesel directly. you have the perfect story for a inane greenie comedy.  
But hey! What do I know right? I am the peasant unbeliever and you are the pontiff engineer that knows better what is good for me.

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## UseByDate

> For my 2 cents, and what I have said before, when battery technology takes a flying leap ev's will rule due to that efficiency factor and cost of manufacture and maintenance being far cheaper. My first battery drills were mediocre and always needed a power drill. These days the battery drill rules thanks to improved battery technology. What I have said before and what Marc has said, the electricity supply needs to be available and it would be enormous.

  Whilst you may be correct, without numbers is is hard to argue or indeed to design a solution.
 Do you know the current capacity of the electrical supply system?
 Do you know how much energy would be needed to power a transport system? 
 “_When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”_  
 ― Lord Kelvin

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## phild01

> Do you know the current capacity of the electrical supply system?
>  Do you know how much energy would be needed to power a transport system? 
>  “_When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarely, in your thoughts advanced to the stage of science.”_  
>  ― Lord Kelvin

  Sometimes when things are obvious the statistics become moot.

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## UseByDate

> Sometimes when things are obvious the statistics become moot.

  Kelvin will be spinning in his grave. :Smilie:

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## DavoSyd

> when an ICE vehicle is .... braking is is still burning a significant amount of fuel.

  my 1989 Honda cuts the injectors when the throttle is closed and decelerating.    
please be more cautious when stating absolutes.

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## chrisp

> For my 2 cents, and what I have said before, when battery technology takes a flying leap ev's will rule due to that efficiency factor and cost of manufacture and maintenance being far cheaper. My first battery drills were mediocre and always needed a power drill. These days the battery drill rules thanks to improved battery technology. What I have said before and what Marc has said, the electricity supply needs to be available and it would be enormous.

  As UseByDate has pointed out, it is helpful to numerate your argument. 
Metrix has already has already provided half the information required - the average distance travelled per day per vehicle is 36.4 km/day. 
A quick web search provides a range of figures for the distance per unit of energy for electric vehicles as 80-100 km/10kWh. 
Therefore the average electricity requirement per vehicle is 3.64 - 4.55 kWh/day 
Thats about roughly what a 1kW PV system will produce per day (but is somewhat location dependent). 
Therefore, the enormous energy requirement is something in the order of about a 1kW PV system per vehicle. 
Im not sure if the above figures I have quoted include the charging inefficiencies or not, but even if you doubled the figure, it is still in the realm of possible.

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## UseByDate

> All this talk and very little mention of using the existing fuel supply infrastructure for Hydrogen. We could all keep our big fossil fuel guzzling V-8s that sound so good by using solar to split water and simply converting to Hydrogen fuel. Or using Hydrogen to stretch Methane or something even totally different.
> The future will probably be very different to our current thinking but might include all of these technologies in a multiple fuel package that may or may not use batteries for storing electrical energy now that high density megawatt capacitors seem a possibility

  Hydrogen v battery electric car fuelcost comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY

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## John2b

> my 1989 Honda cuts the injectors when the throttle is closed and decelerating.    
> please be more cautious when stating absolutes.

  Fare enough, so did my 1986 BMW and I guess most cars today. However due the the gear-less transmission the rolling losses of a BEV are lower, which amounts to the same effect as using less fuel when coasting or decelerating.

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## phild01

> Kelvin will be spinning in his grave.

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## John2b

> The fact remains that fuel contains chemical energy that is converted to motion in a somehow relatively efficient way in petrol or diesel engines.

  The only time an ICE gets near it's theoretical peak efficiency of ~30% for petrol and ~40% for diesel is when the engine is a optimum revs and near full load, and that's before losses from the camshaft, water pump, fan, etc. Optimal loading of engines rarely happens in road vehicles with their variable load, variable speed application. Most of the time the conversion rate of chemical energy to axle energy is well below 20%.  
One way manufacturers are squeezing more efficiency out of ICE engines is by replacing the traditionally mechanically driven ancillaries with electric motor driven ones water pumps and cooling fans, even electric brake boosters.

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## UseByDate

> 

  Fleming's Left Hand Rule?

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## Moondog55

How small can an efficient liquid fuel powered turbine be made? Are turbines not more efficient than piston engines

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## UseByDate

> How small can an efficient liquid fuel powered turbine be made? Are turbines not more efficient than piston engines

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEF-d-N2FXU

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## phild01

> Fleming's Left Hand Rule?

  My hand hurts doing that :Cry:

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## Marc

> The only time an ICE gets near it's theoretical peak efficiency of ~30% for petrol and ~40% for diesel is when the engine is a optimum revs and near full load, and that's before losses from the camshaft, water pump, fan, etc. Optimal loading of engines rarely happens in road vehicles with their variable load, variable speed application. Most of the time the conversion rate of chemical energy to axle energy is well below 20%.  
> One way manufacturers are squeezing more efficiency out of ICE engines is by replacing the traditionally mechanically driven ancillaries with electric motor driven ones water pumps and cooling fans, even electric brake boosters.

  Which of course does not answer the fallacy that using fuel to produce electricity, transmit it a few hundred or a few thousands kilometers, transform it down once  twice and perhaps 3 times, then charge a battery with it and then use the battery to power the wheels is somewhat more efficient than using fuel directly to turn the wheels.  
Almost sounds like one of those you tube perpetual motion fallacies. 
But hei !!!! It's ELECTRIC !   WOW !!!   :Rofl5:

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## John2b

Transmission losses between electrical generator and electricity user amount to about 5%, and utility scale energy conversion is more efficient than a variable speed petrol or diesel engine. 
The stored energy in a 60 litre tank of petrol or diesel is equivalent to 540kWh of electricity, enough to drive a typical electric car more than 3,000 kilometres. 
A BEV is ~5 times or more efficient than an ICE vehicle at converting stored energy to motion, which more than makes up for the electricity conversion and transmission losses - even when the source for the energy is fracked gas, LPG or brown coal.

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## Spottiswoode

> Fare enough, so did my 1986 BMW and I guess most cars today. However due the the gear-less transmission the rolling losses of a BEV are lower, which amounts to the same effect as using less fuel when coasting or decelerating.

   You are omitting that modern battery electric vehicles return energy from deceleration back to the system, while an ICE vehicle can only stop, or minimise using fuel while braking. Electric vehicles can actively brake by using the motor to generate electricity and not consume brake pads. All an ICE vehicle can do is turn the motion to brake dust and heat.

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## Marc

*Lost In Transmission: How Much Electricity Disappears Between A Power Plant And Your Plug?**By  Jordan Wirfs-Brock  | November 6, 2015*_MORE_  _Inside Energy__How much energy is lost along the way as electricity travels from a power plant to the plug in your home? This question comes from Jim Barlow, a Wyoming architect, through our IE Questions project._ _To find the answer, we need to break it out step by step: first turning raw materials into electricity, next moving that electricity to your neighborhood, and finally sending that electricity through the walls of your home to your outlet._ __ _Step 1: Making Electricity_ _Power plants – coal, natural gas, petroleum or nuclear – work on the same general principle. Energy-dense stuff is burned to release heat, which boils water into steam, which spins a turbine, which generates electricity. The thermodynamic limits of this process (“Damn that rising entropy!”) mean only two-thirds of the energy in the raw materials actually make it onto the grid in the form of electricity._ _Energy lost in power plants: About 65%, or 22 quadrillion Btus in the U.S. in 2013_ _This graph shows the heating efficiency of different types of power plants. All types of plants have roughly the same efficiency, with the exception of natural gas, which has seen recent improvements in efficiency in recent years with the addition of combined cycle plants. (The coal efficiency line is nearly identical with nuclear energy, and is swallowed up in the purple)._  _Step 2: Moving Electricity – Transmission and Distribution_ _Most of us don’t live right next to a power plant. So we somehow have to get electricity to our homes. This sounds like a job for powerlines._ _Transmission_ _First, electricity travels on long-distance, high-voltage transmission lines, often miles and miles across country. The voltage in these lines can be hundreds of thousands of volts. You don’t want to mess with these lines._ _Why so much voltage? To answer this question, we need to review some high school physics, namely Ohm’s law. Ohm’s law describes how the amount of power in electricity and its characteristics – voltage, current and resistance – are related. It boils down to this: Losses scale with the square of a wire’s current. That square factor means a tiny jump in current can cause a big bump in losses. Keeping voltage high lets us keep current, and losses, low. (For history nerds: This is why AC won the battle of the currents. Thanks, George Westinghouse.)_ _Jordan Wirfs-Brock / Inside EnergyThe sagginess of power lines is actually the limiting factor in their design. Engineers have to make sure they don’t get too close to trees and buildings._  _When that electricity is lost, where does it go? Heat. Electrons moving back and forth crash into each other, and those collisions warm up power lines and the air around them._ _You can actually hear those losses: That crackling sound when you stand under a transmission tower is lost electricity. You can see the losses, too: Notice how power lines sag in the middle? Some of that’s gravity. But the rest are electrical losses. Heat, like the kind from lost electricity, makes metal power lines expand. When they do, they sag. Powerlines are saggier, and leakier, on hot days._ _Distribution_ _High-voltage transmission lines are big, tall, expensive, and potentially dangerous so we only use them when electricity needs to travel long distances. At substations near your neighborhood, electricity is stepped down onto smaller, lower-voltage power lines – the kind on wooden poles. Now we’re talking tens of thousands of volts. Next, transformers (the can-shaped things sitting on those poles) step the voltage down even more, to 120 volts, to make it safe to enter your house._ _Generally, smaller power lines mean bigger relative losses. So even though electricity may travel much farther on high-voltage transmission lines – dozens or hundreds of miles – losses are low, around two percent. And though your electricity may travel a few miles or less on low-voltage distribution lines, losses are high, around four percent._ _Energy lost in transmission and distribution: About 6% – 2% in transmission and 4% in distribution – or 69 trillion Btus in the U.S. in 2013_ _Jordan Wirfs-BrockThis graph shows the average percent of electricity lost during transmission and distribution, by state, from 1990 to 2013. With the exception of Idaho, the states with the lowest losses are all rural, and the states with the highest losses are all densely populated._  _Fun fact: Transmission and distribution losses tend to be lower in rural states like Wyoming and North Dakota. Why? Less densely populated states have more high-voltage, low-loss transmission lines and fewer lower-voltage, high-loss distribution lines. Explore the transmission and distribution losses in your state on our interactive graphic._ _Transmission and distribution losses vary country to country as well. Some countries, like India, have losses pushing 30 percent. Often, this is due to electricity thieves._ _Step 3: Using Electricity Inside Your Home_ _Utility companies meticulously measure losses from the power plant to your meter. They have to, because every bit they lose eats into their bottom line. But once you’ve purchased electricity and it enters your home, we lose track of the losses._ _Your house, and the wires inside your walls, are kind of a black box, and figuring how much electricity gets lost – electricity that you’ve already paid for – is tricky. If you want to find out how much electricity gets lost in your home you’ll either need to estimate it using a circuit diagram of your house or measure it by putting meters on all of your appliances. Are you an energy wonk attempting this? Let us know, we’d love to hear from you!_ _Energy lost in the wiring inside your walls: We don’t know! It could be negligible, or it could be another few percent._ _The Future Of Transmission and Distribution Losses_ _Grid engineers are working on technologies like superconducting materials that could essentially reduce electricity transmission and distribution losses to zero. But for now, the cost of these technologies is much higher than the money lost by  utility companies through their existing hot, leaky power lines._ _A more economical solution to reduce transmission and distribution losses is to change how and when we use power. Losses aren’t a constant quantity. They change every instant based on things like the weather and power consumption. When demand is high, like when we’re all running our ACs on hot summer days, losses are higher. When demand is low, like in the middle of the night, losses are lower. Utilities are experimenting with ways to spread out electricity use more evenly to minimize losses._ _The same principle applies to your house, which is basically your own personal grid. You can reduce losses in your home by spreading out your electricity use evenly throughout the day, instead of running all your appliances at once._ _Adding Up The Losses_  _Generating electricity, we lost 22 quadrillion Btu from coal, natural gas, nuclear and petroleum power plants in 2013 in the U.S. – that’s more than the energy in all the gasoline we use in a given year.__Moving electricity from plants to homes and businesses on the transmission and distribution grid, we lost 69 trillion Btu in 2013 – that’s about how much energy Americans use drying our clothes every year._

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## Spottiswoode

> Which of course does not answer the fallacy that using fuel to produce electricity, transmit it a few hundred or a few thousands kilometers, transform it down once  twice and perhaps 3 times, then charge a battery with it and then use the battery to power the wheels is somewhat more efficient than using fuel directly to turn the wheels.  
> Almost sounds like one of those you tube perpetual motion fallacies. 
> But hei !!!! It's ELECTRIC !   WOW !!!

  Now you are omitting the distribution of petroleum etc. no one drives to the refinery to buy fuel. A big pipe or truck takes it into town and then to be local servo where we have to drive to go and get some. There isn’t a system where the fuel goes directly from refinery to tank

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## Marc

So we now know that producing electricity is very inefficient conversion, if you count the energy in the fuel and what you get for your money at the home outlet. 
Note that the energy required to mine and transport the fuel to the powerplant is not counted just like extracting and refining of diesel is not counted. 
So now we are in front of the power outlet with the EV charger plug in our hand, ready to plug it in and charge our confounded EV so that we can drive a few hundred KM after waiting half a day to charge.
How much is the conversion rate between fuel energy at powerplant and motion in the EV? 
The answer is a pathetic 14.4%

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## Marc

> Now you are omitting the distribution of petroleum etc. no one drives to the refinery to buy fuel. A big pipe or truck takes it into town and then to be local servo where we have to drive to go and get some. There isn’t a system where the fuel goes directly from refinery to tank

   In order to compare apples to apples and not kumquats, you would have to do the same with the fuel used at the powerplant. So you either omit both or you work out both. Either way the electricity production if you consider energy conversion from fuel at the plant and power at the outlet is very low. If you then use batteries and electric motors to go from A to B, the outlook is rather pathetic.
Most people do not even know that power plants be it coal, gas, or nuclear are steam turbines and that fuel is used to boil water to make steam. 
Both the steam turbine and the electric motor are ancient technology far removed from the so called "future" and rather an archaic method of producing and using energy. Any internal combustion engine is technologically more advanced.

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## Marc

So all you Ev fanatics, you are driving an expensive contraption that is 14% efficient and i drive a diesel engine that is ... well after 320,000 km probably 35%. My obsolete technology kills your fashion statement by a country mile.   *Diesel engines[edit]*  Engines using the Diesel cycle are usually more efficient, although the Diesel cycle itself is less efficient at equal compression ratios. Since diesel engines use much higher compression ratios (the heat of compression is used to ignite the slow-burning diesel fuel), that higher ratio more to air pumping losses within the engine. Modern turbo-diesel engines use electronically controlled common-rail fuel injection to increase efficiency. With the help of geometrically variable turbo-charging system this also increases the engines' torque at low engine speeds (1200-1800 RPM). Low speed diesel engine like the MAN S80ME-C7 have achieved an overall energy conversion efficiency of 54.4%, which is the highest conversion of fuel into power by any single-cycle internal or external combustion engine.[3][4][5] Engines in large diesel trucks, buses, and newer diesel cars can achieve peak efficiencies around 45%.[6]   Yes, and that MAN engine is a two stroke engine just like my beloved Detroit Diesel.

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## John2b

> So all you Ev fanatics, you are driving an expensive contraption that is 14% efficient and i drive a diesel engine that is ... well after 320,000 km probably 35%. My obsolete technology kills your fashion statement by a country mile.

  The peak efficiency of a internal combustion engine occurs only at one load at one rpm. At all other times, such as nearly all of the time in a vehicle, the ICE is not operating anywhere near its peak efficiency. 
When you stay within your knowledge base like that thread about anvils, your posts are great to read and I gained some useful insights as I am sure others did too, Marc.

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## Spottiswoode

> So all you Ev fanatics, you are driving an expensive contraption that is 14% efficient and i drive a diesel engine that is ... well after 320,000 km probably 35%. My obsolete technology kills your fashion statement by a country mile]

  I really have no idea where you are getting those numbers. I can’t be bothered going to find electricity efficiency again, but a couple of posts above from you is a chart showing around 6% transmission loss and 65% efficiency in heat transfer at the station. It’s going to take some significant losses elsewhere to get down to 14%. Those figures are provided by who exactly? Petroleum industry? The quote also mentions India’s transmission efficiency is the worst in the world - not due to transmission losses but theft. Taking extra electricity out by theft is not an efficiency loss at all, it’s theft.   
Look again at your diesel efficiency. The maximum efficiency of an internal combustion engine is under 30%. Average vehicles are closer to 25% so an old truck is less than that, probably close to 20%.you are also ignoring the efficiency loss of getting that fuel into your tank (not refining, just delivering it to the servo in a truck) while you are including the efficiency of getting electrons to the house. 
you accuse me of not comparing apple to apple while you consistently do the same.

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## Marc

Ha ha, you guys crack me up. An EV claiming high efficiency is like a glider pilot bragging about how little energy he uses when gliding ignoring the fact that a piston engine plane must pull him up before he does his little joy ride.
There is no point in posting data if you don't read it.

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## Spottiswoode

And there is not much point trying to discuss with you either. At least you have been consistent though, still drinking the petroleum industry kool aid that has denied, denigrated and plain old buried science for too long.
Yes, electric cars are not the panacea, but sticki g your head in the sand and continuing on with current pollution emissions is certainly not going to help the environment.

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## Bedford

> However due the the gear-less transmission the rolling  losses of a BEV are lower,

  You do realise your Nissan Leaf has a double reduction transmission don't you? 
I posted pics and a link earlier in this thread but it's not the way of the future, https://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/...er-on-a-charge    

> All an ICE vehicle can do is turn the motion to brake dust and heat.

  I'm guessing you've never heard of compression or exhaust braking, or Telma retarders?

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## Spottiswoode

> I'm guessing you've never heard of compression or exhaust braking, or Telma retarders?

  I figured they’d probably pop up. Yes, heard of them. Ok, they turn motion into noise and heat. Even if it is another form of energy, it will be a waste product. Neither will return energy that can be used later.

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## John2b

> You do realise your Nissan Leaf has a double reduction transmission don't you? 
> I posted pics and a link earlier in this thread but it's not the way of the future, https://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/...er-on-a-charge    
> I'm guessing you've never heard of compression or exhaust braking, or Telma retarders?

  The Nissan transmission is gear-less in the sense it doesn't have a gearbox. The reduction gearing is in unit with the differential. Practically all  cars have reduction gearing in the differential, except for some electric cars with motors at two or four wheels which don't have a differential. 
Telma retarders turn momentum into waste heat magnetically, instead of using friction. The result is the same, namely lost or waste energy.

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## METRIX

> _Jordan Wirfs-Brock_

  The information posted above again is irrelevant to our system, the US power system is on par with a 3rd world country for efficiency, the above graph shows this, they only have 11 states with a more efficient system than ours at 5% loss. 
Plus our system is working as a bi-directional network nowadays.

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## Bedford

> Originally Posted by *John2b*  
>   However due the the gear-less transmission the rolling  losses of a BEV are lower,

    

> The Nissan transmission is gear-less in the sense it doesn't have a gearbox. The reduction gearing is in unit with the differential.

  I'm guessing you mean the transmission doesn't have user selectable ratio's?

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## Marc

> I really have no idea where you are getting those numbers. I can’t be bothered going to find electricity efficiency again, but a couple of posts above from you is a chart showing around 6% transmission loss and 65% efficiency in heat transfer at the station. It’s going to take some significant losses elsewhere to get down to 14%. Those figures are provided by who exactly? Petroleum industry? The quote also mentions India’s transmission efficiency is the worst in the world - not due to transmission losses but theft. Taking extra electricity out by theft is not an efficiency loss at all, it’s theft.   
> Look again at your diesel efficiency. The maximum efficiency of an internal combustion engine is under 30%. Average vehicles are closer to 25% so an old truck is less than that, probably close to 20%.you are also ignoring the efficiency loss of getting that fuel into your tank (not refining, just delivering it to the servo in a truck) while you are including the efficiency of getting electrons to the house. 
> you accuse me of not comparing apple to apple while you consistently do the same.

  Spotty, you are funny indeed. 
Read the post once more or look up Wiki, always a good resource despite being the mouthpiece of the global warming industry.   

> Typical thermal efficiency for utility-scale electrical generators is around 37% for coal and oil-fired plants,[6] and 56 – 60% (LEV) for combined-cycle gas-fired plants. Plants designed to achieve peak efficiency while operating at capacity will be less efficient when operating off-design (i.e. temperatures too low.)[7] .

   

> A typical diesel automotive engine operates at around 30% to 35% of thermal efficiency. About 65-70% is rejected as waste heat without being converted into useful work, i.e. work delivered to wheels. In general, engines using the Diesel cycle are usually more efficient, than engines using the Otto cycle. The diesel engine has the highest thermal efficiency of any practical combustion engine. Low-speed diesel engines (as used in ships) can have a thermal efficiency that exceeds 50%. The largest diesel engine in the world peaks at 51.7%.

  So, My derated and old diesel 4wd has the same if not better efficiency than our coal fired power plants. Makes me feel all warm inside.
Now add to that appalling "efficiency" all the losses from the plant to your powerpoint, and then the lossess for charging the battery and drive the motor and you get 14% or thereabouts. Make sure you know how to add up percentages.  
However the point I am making is not how bad our coal fired power plants are and how good my diesel car is. Far from it. I am well aware of the shortcomings and pollution problems both engines cause. 
The point here is that you guys are pontificating about the virtues of electric cars as the panacea for the future. i call BS on that. Electric motors are an archaic technology heavily relying on power generation that is highly inefficient and that is necessary for our everyday life. Electricity is essential for every single aspect of our everyday living and unless you want to go back to kero lamps and horses, you have to choose between electricity for everyday living or for transportation. You can not have both without massive increase in production. 
It is painfully obvious that wind and solar add another massive inefficiency layer to what should be super efficient and super reliable in this day and age. And the two clean and efficient methods we have at hand today nuclear and hydro, are anathema thanks to the watermelons and their disinformation machine.  
However, do not despair. There is always a solution. We should mandate that if a person wants an electric car, he is welcome to it providing he can build a system that offsets the power needs of said electric car. This way the demands of power for this piffy fashion statement will be neutral and everything will go on as per normal.
John has done just that. But I am sure that John is clever enough to realise that such is not something that is a practical solution for every EV owner. 
EV are not the future. They are old hat and will detract from our ever increasing power needs despite their good looks. Well discounting the cibertruck that is ... err ... a piece of crap.

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## John2b

A litre of diesel contains around 31,000 BTU of energy, enough to drive a diesel vehicle ~10 km based on actual fleet averages.
The same 31,000 BTU of electrical energy is enough to drive an electric car ~55 km based on actual fleet averages. 
There is not that big a difference in the process efficiency between converting a fossil energy source delivering it to the user between liquid fuel and electricity.

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## Spottiswoode

> So, My derated and old diesel 4wd has the same if not better efficiency than our coal fired power plants.

  Not a chance. What is your fuel economy and we’ll work into it for you?   

> The point here is that you guys are pontificating about the virtues of electric cars as the panacea for the future. i call BS on that. Electric motors are an archaic technology heavily relying on power generation that is highly inefficient and that is necessary for our everyday life. Electricity is essential for every single aspect of our everyday living and unless you want to go back to kero lamps and horses, you have to choose between electricity for everyday living or for transportation. You can not have both without massive increase in production. 
> It is painfully obvious that wind and solar add another massive inefficiency layer to what should be super efficient and super reliable in this day and age. And the two clean and efficient methods we have at hand today nuclear and hydro, are anathema thanks to the watermelons and their disinformation machine.

  electric motors are very efficient. Converting more than 90% of available energy to motion. Battery electric might not be the solution for transport, but ICE is certainly not either. Electricity can also be generated in clean ways and it is improving all the time. Modern windmills can produce 20MW while original ones were 0.5MW. Sure, we are a long way off that, but it is possible.    

> However, do not despair. There is always a solution. We should mandate that if a person wants an electric car, he is welcome to it providing he can build a system that offsets the power needs of said electric car. This way the demands of power for this piffy fashion statement will be neutral and everything will go on as per normal..

   And perhaps you should be developing a diesel refinery in your backyard too? I think it will be a lot easier to generate sparks in the backyard than diesel. Solar, wind, geothermal etc all work and are achievable in many locations.  
The solution is not electric cars, the solution is cutting consumption and increasing efficiency with EVERYTHING we do. Electric vehicles, despite your ‘evidence’ are more energy efficient, especially when powered by renewable energy.

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## UseByDate

> My hand hurts doing that

  Too much information. :Blush7:

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## Petebrisvegas

Do not want to enter into any debate here as the Biases are clearly evident. Electric cars are likely better than Ice in many ways and not not so much in others. Renewable energy is certainly a great thing as well but hasn't addressed the problems of base load requirements, the times when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing.  
Long way to go to solve these issues.  Ultimately i think there are too many cars on the road and reducing that should go a long way to addressing environmental issues.  
In today's modern, high density, internet world a car is obsolete for many tasks where once a car was a necessity. Online shopping/services with easy delivery and wide product availability deem shopping trips all but obsolete. Economical taxi service via Uber and the like another avenue to reduce reliance on multi car households, better public transport.  
 Sure cars are still required but the density and sheer number of them is not. Places like Singapore may be a template for the world in general . The environmental and economical benefits to a world with less cars is huge.  This monstrosity called the cybertruck is not the answer and the fact it exists is a negative on Tesla, they are becoming what they once abhorred about other vehicle manufacturers.  
Electric or not more Dodge Ram type vehicles that are more testosterone based than practicability are an eyesore and generally unrequired pieces of instagram look at me mentality. Less cars with a higher percentage of them electric seems the way to go but alas i don't think we are going to see that in the near future.  Consumerism and they keep up with the Jones's mentality which pervades most societies is rife and growing at an alarming rate. Social Media is turning into a disease. 
  Ok rant over, by the way my household has 4 cars and we are going to get that down to 2.  
 We all should do our bit.

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## UseByDate

> The point here is that you guys are pontificating about the virtues of electric cars as the panacea for the future. i call BS on that. Electric motors are an archaic technology heavily relying on power generation that is highly inefficient and that is necessary for our everyday life. Electricity is essential for every single aspect of our everyday living and unless you want to go back to kero lamps and horses, you have to choose between electricity for everyday living or for transportation. You can not have both without massive increase in production.

  Using back of the envelope figures.
 A*n* electric car uses 10kWh to travel 100km.
 Average distance travelled by car per day in Australia is 36km.
 Therefore average energy needed is 3.6 kWh per car per day. 
 The energy required to heat 180 litres of water from 15 C to 60 C is 10kWh. 
 Electric cars only require a third of the energy we use to heat our water. 
 If charging is done at night it can be done after the water has been heated. Therefore no need to upgrade the infrastructure (Generators and wires). If charging is done in the day the energy can be provided by solar. 
 35% of homes in South Australia and Queensland now have domestic solar (PV).

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## PhilT2

> If charging is done at night it can be done after the water has been heated. Therefore no need to upgrade the infrastructure (Generators and wires). If charging is done in the day the energy can be provided by solar. 
>  35% of homes in South Australia and Queensland now have domestic solar (PV).

  Don't clutter up this forum with facts; we prefer to manufacture our own reality.

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## METRIX



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## Uncle Bob

Aww sweet! It be great to get those fricking noisy hogs off the road.

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## John2b

> Aww sweet! It be great to get those fricking noisy hogs off the road.

  The electric Harleys apparently have a deliberately engineered sound... https://youtu.be/skzQcCiwpFc

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## METRIX



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## Uncle Bob

They've been saying it's 10-20 years away for too long. They probably need new eyes and more investment looking into the hurdles.

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## John2b

Yes, electricity generation from fusion has been 10 to 20 years away for each of the last consecutive 70 years, yet according to the latest statement (2019) from The International Atomic Energy Agency, fusion's "potential to generate electricity at a commercial scale is several decades away". 
Meanwhile, there is a thing in the sky that is delivering to Earth vastly more energy than 100,000's of ground based fusion reactors could do if they ever existed, and that energy is "free", and does not create a new intractable waste byproduct. One day the light will shine - pun intended.

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## phild01

> Meanwhile, there is a thing in the sky that is delivering to Earth vastly more energy than 100,000's of ground based fusion reactors could do if they ever existed, and that energy is "free", and does not create a new intractable waste byproduct. One day the light will shine - pun intended.

  But John, we would all need to find an island to live on for that to work :Smilie:

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## PhilT2

> But John, we would all need to find an island to live on for that to work

  What's the matter with the one you're on now?

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## Bros

> Aww sweet! It be great to get those fricking noisy hogs off the road.

  potato-potato-potato

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## Bros

> Meanwhile, there is a thing in the sky that is delivering to Earth vastly more energy than 100,000's of ground based fusion reactors could do if they ever existed, and that energy is "free", and does not create a new intractable waste byproduct. One day the light will shine - pun intended.

   I bet they thought the same thing when they invented the plastic bottle, no waste can be recycled, solar energy use is in its infancy now what happens when all the panels and batteries pass their use by date same as the plastic bottle?

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## woodbe

> I bet they thought the same thing when they invented the plastic bottle, no waste can be recycled, solar energy use is in its infancy now what happens when all the panels and batteries pass their use by date same as the plastic bottle?

  https://renew.org.au/renew-magazine/...cycling-solar/  *With the recent boom in  solar PV installations and the increasing uptake of storage batteries,  we take a look at what will happen to these products when they reach the  end of their lives.* In our last update on this topic back in January 2018, installed solar capacity had grown by 4500% since 2010 to 6.2 GW.  According to the not-for-profit Australian PV Institute, as of June  2019 there are now over 2 million Australian solar PV installations,  with 7.1 GW in residential (< 10 kW), 1.8 GW in commercial (10 to 100 kW) and 4 GW in utility-scale installations (> 100 kW), with a total combined capacity in Australia of 12.9 GW. Approximately 5000 installations in 2018 were also for combined solar and battery systems. 
 The numbers can tend to  glide over your head, but the growth is impressive. With the majority of  these panels installed in the last decade and a typical panel life of  15 to 25 years (and most batteries only recently installed with a life  of around 7 to 10 years), recycling has not yet become critical. 
 But  there is a growing number of panels that require disposal: some are  damaged in transport and installation, a proportion are replaced for  upgrades (often when storage batteries are added) and a trickle are  reaching the end of their lives. From an estimated 2600 tonnes of panels  in 2019, this is set to increase very rapidly in 10 to 15 years time,  up to an estimated 1.5 million tonnes of panels and just under 100,000  tonnes of storage batteries in Australia by 2050, according to work done  by researchers at Griffith University.
 So if you have damaged  panels or old panels that are no longer required or a storage battery  that fails, what can you do with them? And if your installer takes your  discarded panels, where do they end up? Until recently, the answer was  that they ended up in landfill, and that is still mostly the case.  However, some businesses and parts of government have started work on  providing the infrastructure and processes to recycle old panels and  batteries. 
..   *What to do with panels* For those wishing to  dispose of silicon or CdTe end-of-life panels, the general  recommendation is to find a responsible installer or local council depot  that will return them to a panel recycler. However, don’t assume that  because someone will take the panels, they will be recycled. In many  parts of Australia, they are still taken to landfill. *Contact Reclaim  PV, PV Industries, or other new players, SolaCycle and CMA Ecocycle, to  find the possible collection points that may be near you.*

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## Marc

Domestic solar panels are going to be the next asbestos?

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## phild01

Well and good if recycling can work but Bros made a good analogy of plastic bottles. Back then recycling seemed an obvious solution but that foresight has failed. Optimism about such things is generally unfounded.

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## METRIX

> I bet they thought the same thing when they invented the plastic bottle, no waste can be recycled, solar energy use is in its infancy now what happens when all the panels and batteries pass their use by date same as the plastic bottle?

   https://reclaimpv.com/#services

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## Marc

If you then read that the infamous plastic bottle island originates from ships that are supposed to take plastic to recycle to asia and dump it halfway instead.  :Frown:  
I think that the best solution is to contract rocket man to push garbage into space  :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> If you then read that the infamous plastic bottle island originates from ships that are supposed to take plastic to recycle to asia and dump it halfway instead.  
> I think that the best solution is to contract rocket man to push garbage into space

  I think you may find it's a lot more than a ship dumping something, go here to learn where all the plastic rubbish is coming from,, estimates are over 5 Trillion pieces of plastic are currently floating in the ocean. 
No surprises who is dumping 80% of the 2.7 million tons of it in the ocean each year, the bubbles show who is doing it, the bigger the bubble the more plastic.  https://theoceancleanup.com/sources/

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## Spottiswoode

> If you then read that the infamous plastic bottle island originates from ships that are supposed to take plastic to recycle to asia and dump it halfway instead.  
> I think that the best solution is to contract rocket man to push garbage into space

   Can you give us some numbers on wether an electric rocket or a diesel one is more efficient?

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## METRIX

> Can you give us some numbers on wether an electric rocket or a diesel one is more efficient?

  Maybe a Hybrid version would be best

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## Marc

Nuclear electric rocket is a hybrid system but too heavy and generates little thrust so only good for out of space not for take off. Very efficient though ... providing you ignore the energy cost of building the dam thing. 
Liquid hydrogen instead can push lots of garbage into space with relative safety, no radioactive material and only water as a byproduct. Yes no CO2 ... oh my! 
Best possible dump for our garbage is of course the moon. nice and close, has it's own gravity to keep all the trash there. Ideal really.

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## Bedford

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/...r-thanksgiving

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## John2b

If it was free petrol or free diesel, ICE vehicle drivers would queue much the same. Early Tesla X and S owners got free charging for the life of the vehicle, now Tesla owners get three years free at Tesla Supercharger stations.

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## Spottiswoode

“No one will buy electric cars, they are useless” 
I can imagine similar queues about 300km from Sydney on Boxing Day. its going to take a little tike time to get used to that! Ie charge at home/hotel/in-laws before you leave. Tesla will lrobably develop software to indicate where the chargers are busy and based on your satnav destination suggest the best charge location via a notification.

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## METRIX

> “No one will buy electric cars, they are useless” 
>  Tesla will lrobably develop software to indicate where the chargers are busy and based on your satnav destination suggest the best charge location via a notification.

  The software is already in the car, it tells you where the closest charger is, also which charges you will "make" it to if multiple are available and how many chargers are unused at the site. 
That video must have been some Tesla convention, and there was only limited chargers within a limited area, quite funny either way. 
It actually wasn't that bad, there was 15 cars waiting, and 13 charging stations, could you imagine if that was ICE cars, there would have been mayhem and probably a riot start.

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## Spottiswoode

Good to see some context to the queue. It wouldn’t take much to update their software to book a slot for charging either, then interlock the charger (within reason) so your charge spot is guaranteed. They know where all their vehicles are anyway, not hard to update.

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## DavoSyd

Hold on. 
So these are FREE charging stations? 
Did I read that correctly?

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## John2b

> So these are FREE charging stations?

  Charging at Tesla Supercharging network is (was?) free for all Model S and Model X cars that were ordered before January 15, 2017. I understand that cars ordered after that date get various free allowances, and owners can receive free charging credits for referring new customers.

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## Petebrisvegas

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...-third-116594/ 
Not that much cheaper per km than typical ICE vehicle  and you can recharge your ICE  in 90 seconds  and the " recharger " is around every corner . EV not quite there yet  . You need to be a fan ( cult member ) to put up with the incovenience of EV in australia at this stage . The average person is driven by economics whether that is money or time and motion  . Range anxiety is an issue outside urban areas  also  with limited recharging stations

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## Spottiswoode

> https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...-third-116594/ 
> Not that much cheaper per km than typical ICE vehicle  and you can recharge your ICE  in 90 seconds  and the " recharger " is around every corner . EV not quite there yet  . You need to be a fan ( cult member ) to put up with the incovenience of EV in australia at this stage . The average person is driven by economics whether that is money or time and motion  . Range anxiety is an issue outside urban areas  also  with limited recharging stations

   For a city/commuter car there is more inconvenience having to go out of your way to get fuel and regular oil changes than it would be to plug in at home every night or two. Is much prefer to have a full tank of fuel every morning than hopping in and thinking I have to fill up sometime today.  
It’s all about price and range anxiety.

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## John2b

I've spent a whopping $3.95 on 'fuel' for my Leaf in the last 6 months / 10,000 kilometres. The rest has been from 100% solar power. It's ironic that the people who don't own BEVs are experts on how bad they are...

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## phild01

> I've spent a whopping $3.95 on 'fuel' for my Leaf in the last 6 months / 10,000 kilometres. The rest has been from 100% solar power. It's ironic that the people who don't own BEVs are experts on how bad they are...

  John, I think they will be great but what is easy for you to do is not what most can do. It's all about batteries and available charging.

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## UseByDate

> If it was free petrol or free diesel, ICE vehicle drivers would queue much the same.

  Or no petrol. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VNXzgZ0sCQ

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## UseByDate

> https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...-third-116594/ 
> Not that much cheaper per km than typical ICE vehicle  and you can recharge your ICE  in 90 seconds  and the " recharger " is around every corner . EV not quite there yet  . You need to be a fan ( cult member ) to put up with the incovenience of EV in australia at this stage . The average person is driven by economics whether that is money or time and motion  . Range anxiety is an issue outside urban areas  also  with limited recharging stations

  This will help. 5 minute recharge for 120 km range in the USA. 
 “This capacity issue will keep popping up until we see more of the automaker's upcoming 250 kW-capable V3 Superchargers, capable of giving 75 miles worth of charge to a Model 3 in just five minutes. There are only a small handful of those stations online at the moment, though, and a nationwide roll out will drag on through 2020 and beyond.”    https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/...r-thanksgiving

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## Petebrisvegas

> For a city/commuter car there is more inconvenience having to go out of your way to get fuel and regular oil changes than it would be to plug in at home every night or two. Is much prefer to have a full tank of fuel every morning than hopping in and thinking I have to fill up sometime today.  
> It’s all about price and range anxiety.

  I dont want to get into this Team Speak BS tbh but it aint as convenient as you say . Electric vehicles will need servicing just like ICE , sure they wont need oil changes but outside that its still a car with consumables . Now many households are multi car so charging at home could be a hassle shuffling cars about to get to said charger  . Weather an issue . How long does it take to charge a 75kwh battery on a home outlet ? What if you live in apartment/flat and have no ofstreet parking or carpark with no easy charger access ?   Superchargers are rare and other chargers are only rated to up to 22 kwh . A half tank charge is going to be 2 hours or more .  These are real issues atm .  I am not anti EV or a member of any " team " , i am a realist and i am open to an EV when the price and convenience is right .  And for those with the Nissan Leaf , they are $50k for a similar car to a $25K ICE  , your fuel costs are irrelevant if you start $25k behind   .   Anecdotes mean @@@@ , real world averages are what matters  .  Keep it real

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## Petebrisvegas

> This will help. 5 minute recharge for 120 km range in the USA. 
>  “This capacity issue will keep popping up until we see more of the automaker's upcoming 250 kW-capable V3 Superchargers, capable of giving 75 miles worth of charge to a Model 3 in just five minutes. There are only a small handful of those stations online at the moment, though, and a nationwide roll out will drag on through 2020 and beyond.”    https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/...r-thanksgiving

  We live in Australia if you havent noticed . Be lucky to be 20 supercharger stations on the entire east coast  , the majority are 22kwh rated tops with many at 11kwh . More useless info that has no meaning to any australian

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## UseByDate

> We live in Australia if you havent noticed . Be lucky to be 20 supercharger stations on the entire east coast  , the majority are 22kwh rated tops with many at 11kwh . More useless info that has no meaning to any australian

  Why are you getting so personal? Solutions to the drawbacks of owning a BEV can and do originate anywhere on this planet. Visionaries tend not to be so parochial.

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## Petebrisvegas

> Why are you getting so personal? Solutions to the drawbacks of owning a BEV can and do originate anywhere on this planet. Visionaries tend not to be so parochial.

  
Who is getting personal ? When the solutions are real & not pixie dust i will contemplate an EV , i am not parochial , I am a realist .  At the moment EV's are not time and motion economical or fiscally economical  . Its that simple unless you are a member of the ' cult ' that ignores the economics & inconvenience .  Who is parochial here  ?  When the metrics change i will probably buy an EV  just like i did with solar panels when they became a saving with a decent payback time that saved money   .

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## METRIX

Australia has lagged behind the uptake of electric vehicles for a number of reasons, being the gov't not really interested in doing anything other that what they have done for the last 50 years so they don't offer any incentives for anyone to move to electric, the vehicle choice has been very limited, the vehicle price is way too much here, and the possible inconvenience of living with one due to no infrastructure to support them wher eyou live. 
With that said, the charging network is still in it's infancy at the moment as there is no incentive for business to  invest in creating the infrastructure, and sure as hell the gov't is not interested in putting any infrastructure in because they are too busy spending our money on themselves. 
Below is the current charging stations in AU, If you drive a Tesla you will have access to higher capacity chargers (120kW) because Tesla have foot the cost of installing and maintaining these 200k+W chargers are only just starting to be rolled out in various parts of the world because there is only a handful of cars tha can support these. 
Bear in mind Superchargers are not used that often, only when you are doing big interstate trips and running the battery capacity down, daily driving does not need the use of them because you will either charge at home, or at one of the smaller public chargers, of which there are plenty. 
The biggest point that is being missed by non EV owners, is having an electric vehicle is a different mindset, there is a misconception that you have to be able to charge the car in 5 minutes every day or they are useless, 
For those that have off street parking this is not the case, you will drive home and plug it in every day or two or three depending on how much driving you do, so having access the  high capacity chargers is not an issue, because every time you drive it out it will be at full capacity,  
Unlike a ICE vehicle you are dependant of someone else having to supply the fuel to propel the car, Electric car you can cut ties with petrol stations and provide the fuel yourself, how much you want to invest to provide this, such as solar panels, house batteries, or simply off the grid is up to you, same as ICE vehicles, If I want to buy an efficient diesel I can, if I want an inefficient V8 I can also buy one of them the choice is your. 
For people that don't have access to offstreet chargers, then the public network is there for them, I know a lot of people that live in the inner city and they don't have cars, that is why they live in the inner city, they use public transport for 95% of their trips, when they need a car they use car sharing / rental services and they are perfectly happy with this. 
Australia is a big country so to implement high powered charging stations on every corner will never happen and it doesn't need to, below shows the Tesla Superchargers in Red (120kW) 
Grey are destination chargers that will accept Tesla plug as well as other plugs and range in charging capacity from 4kW to 22kW 
Under that is a location of publicly available chargers Aus wide, orange are high capacity chargers, green lower capacity ones.
So until we start to buy more cars then the infrastructure will only dribble out upgrades.

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## DavoSyd

> At the moment EV's are not time and motion economical or fiscally economical  . Its that simple .

  for you?  
or are you speaking for others (i.e everyone) when you make this unequivocal statement? 
what are your "time & motion" metrics? perhaps minutes & meters? these are heterogeneous across all drivers, so it's very difficult to generalise about who might or might not find EV "economical", _ceteris paribus._..

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## John2b

> John, I think they will be great but what is easy for you to do is not what most can do. It's all about batteries and available charging.

  I disagree that it is easier for me than anyone else. My choices are purely driven by economics. Every cent I spend has to be earned, and I have no desire to work any harder or longer than I have to. I commit to upfront expenditure where there is a demonstrable net 'cost of ownership' benefit.

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## Petebrisvegas

> for you?  
> or are you speaking for others (i.e everyone) when you make this unequivocal statement? 
> what are your "time & motion" metrics? perhaps minutes & meters? these are heterogeneous across all drivers, so it's very difficult to generalise about who might or might not find EV "economical", _ceteris paribus._..

  The maths is pretty simple  . you tell me     https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...7597478/?Cr=14  https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...7325511/?Cr=20

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## phild01

> I disagree that it is easier for me than anyone else. My choices are purely driven by economics. Every cent I spend has to be earned, and I have no desire to work any harder or longer than I have to. I commit to upfront expenditure where there is a demonstrable net 'cost of ownership' benefit.

  You have plenty of solar available to charge your Leaf. Not every resident has that, particularly with the popularity of apartment living growing.  Where I am many people struggle to get decent solar hours due to the fire hazard that grows and abounds around us. So getting economical mileage like yours would not be possible.  It would have to be bought in and even if the charging was done off peak grid, that discount would soon disappear as off-peak would cease to exist.

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## John2b

> You have plenty of solar available to charge your Leaf. Not every resident has that, particularly with the popularity of apartment living growing.  Where I am many people struggle to get decent solar hours due to the fire hazard that grows and abounds around us. So getting economical mileage like yours would not be possible.  It would have to be bought in and even if the charging was done off peak grid, that discount would soon disappear as off-peak would cease to exist.

  You seem to have missed the point that I have what I have because of choices I made for economic reasons. The off-grid solar system was an initial financial commitment to eliminate recurrent electricity charges for a net financial benefit. The spare electricity from the off-grid solar which can't be exported was a problem looking for a solution, hence the electric car which is can be charged for essentially no cost. Our household has always had a sedan and a 4WD. Along with the Leaf I still have an ICE 4WD, but the fuel cost for that vehicle has dropped by 90% as I only use it when I need to. 
The Australian fleet average for BEVs is 6km per kWk or for 20,000 kilometre per year, or ~3,333 kWh. At off-peak rates ~$0.15 per kWh that is ~$500 per year. A BEV typically has no regular scheduled service, and they tend to be very reliable because they are not subject to damaging vibrations from an ICE. 
The Australian fleet average for diesel passenger vehicles is 10km per Litre or for 20,000 kilometers per year, 2,000 lts. At $1.50 per litre that's $3,000 per year. Add to that the cost of maintenance and service charges.

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## DavoSyd

> The maths is pretty simple  . you tell me     https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...7597478/?Cr=14  https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/det...7325511/?Cr=20

  Yeah, nah, please spell it out for me?

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## phild01

> You seem to have missed the point

  No, you said this  

> I disagree that it is easier for me than anyone else.

  you may have missed a point I was making   

> At off-peak rates ~$0.15 per kWh that is ~$500 per year.

  That 15c kWh will no longer be such if everyone was using it to charge their ev. The govt might even devise a way of taxing that as well. 
John, I admire the way you have done this for yourself, it does suit your lifestyle and where you like to live but it just doesn't work well for too many other people.  
It should be noted I am not anti ev and would love to see everyone with an ev that exceeds the performance of an ICE vehicle. As I say, batteries are crap and expensive for this to happen right now.

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## Spottiswoode

> I dont want to get into this Team Speak BS tbh but it aint as convenient as you say . Electric vehicles will need servicing just like ICE , sure they wont need oil changes but outside that its still a car with consumables . Now many households are multi car so charging at home could be a hassle shuffling cars about to get to said charger  . Weather an issue . How long does it take to charge a 75kwh battery on a home outlet ? What if you live in apartment/flat and have no ofstreet parking or carpark with no easy charger access ?   Superchargers are rare and other chargers are only rated to up to 22 kwh . A half tank charge is going to be 2 hours or more .  These are real issues atm .  I am not anti EV or a member of any " team " , i am a realist and i am open to an EV when the price and convenience is right .  And for those with the Nissan Leaf , they are $50k for a similar car to a $25K ICE  , your fuel costs are irrelevant if you start $25k behind   .   Anecdotes mean @@@@ , real world averages are what matters  .  Keep it real

   Thing is, for a commute you don’t use 75kwh. That’s probably 400km range. The average car travels 36 km per day (previous post somewhere) let’s call it 40 for simplicity and you end up with 7.5kwh per vehicle per day. Overnight on a 10amp lead (2.4kw) easily with no need for a special charger. Yes, they aren’t for everyone but for a second commuter car in a garages household it’s certainly doable.  
As for the price, agree it’s a problem for now, but with all new tech and early adopters they pay extra. You also need to consider that Yu are bringing forward your fuel costs - but it’s probably still expensive for the vehicle. Let’s say $30 per fill up on peak electricity prices as opposed to twice that on petrol. You’ll save more than $500 per year based on full refill every 3 weeks, so it’s jot really economical unless you start really saving by using your cheap solar power.

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## DavoSyd

> As for the price, agree it’s a problem for now,

  especially when comparing hail damaged car prices ($25k) to non-hail damaged car prices ($50k)  :Wink:

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## Spottiswoode

> but it just doesn't work well for too many other people.

   Or at least they havent thought it through and realise that it is possible and practical. Sure it wont work for everybody, but I suspect most in cities with their own parking space could make it work quite easily. Its just changing the mindset from fill, drive til empty and then fill up in 5min on the way somewhere.

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## METRIX



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## METRIX

I don't see electricity price gouging happening over Christmas !!!!
get used to this, the petroleum industry will get whatever they can from ICE drivers as they know their money earner is slowly coming to an end.

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## METRIX

Maquarie Park Shell today

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## Uncle Bob

Bloody thieves!

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## METRIX

Yes, if that's not price gouging I don't know what is. 
I believe there has been numerous test's in the US on premium petrol's like V-Power, and they were all rubbish, just marketing hype

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## DavoSyd

> Yes, if that's not price gouging I don't know what is.

  isn't it called the "price cycle"?  https://petrolspy.com.au/map/latlng/...7305/151.20733  https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pe...ices-in-sydney   

> I believe there has been numerous test's in the US on premium petrol's like V-Power, and they were all rubbish, just marketing hype

  if your car is not designed to use higher octane fuel, it may be of limited benefit. 
(but if you haven't done your own testing, are you really sure it is just _hype_? it's not hard to do a proper test for your car/s)

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## METRIX

> isn't it called the "price cycle"?  https://petrolspy.com.au/map/latlng/...7305/151.20733  https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pe...ices-in-sydney

  No, it's called manipulation and using a bunch of fancy graphs to justify and convince us there is a science behind it.
Average extraction in 2018 was around 94 million barrels per day. 
The refining process / transportation of the product doesn't change on a daily basis to the point where you can get such a difference in the price of the final product, after all they have been refining petroleum for many decades, and should have the refining process down to a fine art because it's a set process on how to refine the raw product. 
Can you imagine if electricity or water was treated the same way, that your bills went up or down on a weekly basis depending on how the supplier felt. 
Quoting that ACCC article.  *Price cycles are the result of deliberate pricing policies of petrol retailers, and are not directly related to changes in wholesale costs.*    

> if your car is not designed to use higher octane fuel, it may be of limited benefit. 
> (but if you haven't done your own testing, are you really sure it is just _hype_? it's not hard to do a proper test for your car/s)

  It would be too hard to do your own proper testing as every time you drive the car it's a different circumstance, I would rather go on others who have the ability to perform a controlled test, and the consensus is, higher octane petrol is not worth the extra cost. 
Yes I have tried my own premium vs regular test over multiple fills of "performance" fuel in a semi performance car (XR6-Turbo Ute) and found no real discernible difference, definitely not enough to justify the high cost.   https://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/09/u-s...mium-gasoline/  https://newsroom.aaa.com/2017/12/don...s-worth-price/  https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...dodge-charger/  https://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-dri...h-octane-fuels  https://www.drivingtests.co.nz/resou...e-extra-price/

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## Bedford

*Elon Musk Hits Traffic Pylon With New Cybertruck After Dinner In Malibu*      https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/12/e...ner-in-malibu/

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## Marc

Dishwasher on wheels, made possible by the fraud of the dangers of CO2.
Follow the money. Who benefits from the global warming fraud? 
Certainly not the consumer. 
Biggest fraud in human history, only at pair with organised religion. 
Still ... some electric cars are real nice.

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## phild01

> https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/12/e...ner-in-malibu/

  I like the way the article calls Musk a pedo guy, very ap.  _ "Not because Elon Musk is a “pedo guy,” which he obviously is. Musk looks like he’s prone to mowing down anything under a couple of feet tall."_

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## DavoSyd

> No, it's called manipulation and using a bunch of fancy graphs to justify and convince us there is a science behind it.

  dont disagree, just noting that it's so widely known it has a formal name, everyone (should) know about it and every year an economist is rolled out to remind everyone about it on nation TV shows...   

> Yes I have tried my own premium vs regular test over multiple fills of "performance" fuel in a semi performance car (XR6-Turbo Ute) and found no real discernible difference, definitely not enough to justify the high cost.  https://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-dri...h-octane-fuels

  yeah, I agree with that RACQ article entirely.

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## Marc

A bit of how long is a piece of string. My ski boat does not like regular petrol, It pulls less and it is harder to start after when cold. 95 octanes makes a difference. The engine is a 4 cylinder 3L 4 stroke carbureted GM engine. 
Conversely I was told by many "gurus" that I shouldn't use premium for 2 stroke like chainsaw or blower. 
Not true. I buy premium in a 200 litre drum and use it for everything, boat, blower, ride on, whipper, and all work with no problems. 
The reason i was given was that premium petrol "is too dry"  :Annoyed:

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## Spottiswoode

> Dishwasher on wheels, made possible by the fraud of the dangers of CO2.
> Follow the money. Who benefits from the global warming fraud? 
> Certainly not the consumer. 
> Biggest fraud in human history, only at pair with organised religion. 
> Still ... some electric cars are real nice.

   Not sure what your point is Marc. Seems to be a bit too subtle.

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## John2b

It's ironic that the laws of thermodynamics that are applied in the construction of an internal combustion engine and determine its output and efficiency are the same as the laws of thermodynamics that describe the effect of atmospheric CO2 in the radiative balance that determines the average surface temperature of the planet. If warming due to CO2 is a fraud, then so are ICEs.

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## Marc

> It's ironic that the laws of thermodynamics that are applied in the construction of an internal combustion engine and determine its output and efficiency are the same as the laws of thermodynamics that describe the effect of atmospheric CO2 in the radiative balance that determines the average surface temperature of the planet. If warming due to CO2 is a fraud, then so are ICEs.

   The fraud is to say that the 3.4% of 0.04% of existing co2 ... that is 0.000012% of the atmosphere attributable to humans makes a difference to climate and that reducing it will cure all illness including baldness. 
It is a fraud like the leprechauns and the weeping crucifix, and electric cars and so called renewables that pollute worse than a ship engine on bunker fuel are the byproduct that makes billionaires richer and the average joe poorer.

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## chrisp

> The fraud is to say that the 3.4% of 0.04% of existing co2 ... that is 0.000012% of the atmosphere attributable to humans makes a difference to climate and that reducing it will cure all illness including baldness. 
> It is a fraud like the leprechauns and the weeping crucifix, and electric cars and so called renewables that pollute worse than a ship engine on bunker fuel are the byproduct that makes billionaires richer and the average joe poorer.

  
Psst, your percentage maths is wrong! Obviously it isnt your strong suit. It must be an Alan Jones moment. 
Also, your logical argument  is wrong too. 3.4% is 3.4% - no need for surplus (and erroneous) multiplication factors at all.

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## John2b

Around the same time in the late 1800's that Otto and Diesel where working on internal combustion engine cycles, Arrhenius calculated the effect of CO2 in the atmosphere by looking at the changed spectrum in the sun's light bounced from Earth reflected in the moon. The amount of CO2 added by humans since then in round figures is not in dispute, and nor are the Laws of Thermodynamics which determine its heating role in the atmosphere and why the Earth isn't an ice-ball as expected from its distance from the Sun. Arrhenius calculated that a doubling of CO2 would raise the temperature by about 4 degrees. No one has significantly bettered that result, or invalidated it, or disproven the laws of physics that underpin it, in the >120 years since Arrhenius published.

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## Spottiswoode

> It is a fraud like the leprechauns and the weeping crucifix, and electric cars and so called renewables that pollute worse than a ship engine on bunker fuel are the byproduct that makes billionaires richer and the average joe poorer.

  i think you can probably apply that to any subject. Billionaires, by their very nature make excessive money at the expense of those less wealthy. Plenty of oil and mining billionaires are responsible for pillaging the land and leaving local populations with a legacy of pollution they can’t fix for themselves.

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## John2b

The ratio of impurities 'dosed' into a sliver of silicon to turn it from an electrical insulator into the semiconducting material from which all electronic technology is built today is approximately 0.000001, i.e.  0.0001%, or 100 _parts per billion_. Infinitesimally small amounts of one element added to another element may make enormous differences to the properties of that material. I guess transistors, computers, phones, etc. are a myth and a hoax too?

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## Marc

> i think you can probably apply that to any subject. Billionaires, by their very nature make excessive money at the expense of those less wealthy. Plenty of oil and mining billionaires are responsible for pillaging the land and leaving local populations with a legacy of pollution they can’t fix for themselves.

  The fact that there are many thieves and fraudsters around is irrelevant. The fraud of the bad CO2 is one gargantuan fraud that is depleting the economy of the western world at the tune of multi trillions and we are paying for it. 
We paid the church for millenia, the kings and queens for millenia, we are paying for corrupt politicians and we swallow the fable of the CO2 and pay tribute to it. We are a pathetic bunch that deserves to be poor whilst the puppeteers pull the strings and laugh.    

> The ratio of impurities 'dosed' into a sliver of silicon to turn it from an electrical insulator into the semiconducting material from which all electronic technology is built today is approximately 0.000001, i.e. 0.0001%, or 100 _parts per billion. Infinitesimally small amounts of one element added to another element may make enormous differences to the properties of that material. I guess transistors, computers, phones, etc. are a myth and a hoax too?_

  John ... you can do better than that, and you know it. But if you believe in the mythical thermostat that the lefties can turn to stop summer and turn it into winter, you are welcome. Just don't ask me to contribute my money to your fallacy.

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## Marc

> Psst, your percentage maths is wrong! Obviously it isn’t your strong suit. It must be an ‘Alan Jones’ moment. 
> Also, your logical argument  is wrong too. 3.4% is 3.4% - no need for surplus (and erroneous) multiplication factors at all.

  If the total of CO2 is 0.04% of the atmosphere, how much of the atmosphere is 3.4% of 0.04%? 
Answer 0.00136% ok, a couple of zero too many. 
The warmist claim that if we reduce our 0.00136% contribution the temperatures will magically reduce ... by how much? They will never reply to that. 
Call to arms, action on global warming ... what a bunch of nincompoops. Will the temperature reduce at all? Most likely if we all move to live on the moon, nothing at all will change. 
Oh but we must act NOW! meantime the fat guys sing in chorus ho hi ha

----------


## Bedford

It will be interesting to see how the tyres react to these hub cap/wheel covers due to cornering forces or when run at off-road pressures.

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## chrisp

> The warmist claim that if we reduce our 0.00136% contribution the temperatures will magically reduce ...

  Wrong again!  You can’t keep multiplying Australia’s contribution by some arbitrary factor and make some outrageous and erroneous claim. False logic. 
It does sound very much like a ‘Alan Jones’ fudge argument!

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## PhilT2

> Wrong again!  You can’t keep multiplying Australia’s contribution by some arbitrary factor and make some outrageous and erroneous claim. False logic. 
> It does sound very much like a ‘Alan Jones’ fudge argument!

  You can't blame Marc for this. he's just copy/pasting what he reads online. After all, if it's on the internet it must be true, right?

----------


## Marc

i am afraid that your emotions are obfuscating your own logic.
The percentage of atmosphere for all human contribution is now correct. humans contribute 3.4% of the overall CO2 That in turn represents 0.00136% of the total atmosphere. Fact.
Of that 3.4% of human contribution to a very useful gas, responsible for life on earth ... Australians are responsible for ... 1.3%. That is 1.3% of the total human contribution and not 1.3% of the total CO2 otherwise we would have one third of total human contribution. Therefore Australians contributes 0.0442% to the overall CO2.
Amazing!
Furthermore if you listen to the green machine, we are also responsible for the potential CO2 created by other countries because we mine coal for them to burn so the CO2 is counted twice. First because we mine it and then because they burn it.
That is your logic. 
I am afraid that A J has not much to do with that. 
By the way, still waiting on an answer as to by how much will the temperature drop if Australia stops all CO2 contribution by that whopping 0.0442% at the cost of shutting down all activity and all dropping dead. 
Furthermore, by how much will the planet temperature drop if all human life disappears from earth? 
Answer ... by 0.001 C ... or is it 0.01 C ? My guess is nothing at all.
Your dismissive petulance only shows you got nothing but emotions and doctrine. Now lets see the big colorful graphs that you and company can produce coy and pasted from some warmist website.

----------


## DavoSyd

@METRIX 
Cybertruck in the wild:  https://imgur.com/gallery/ozNTBbJ

----------


## chrisp

> i am afraid that your emotions are obfuscating your own logic.
> The percentage of atmosphere for all human contribution is now correct. humans contribute 3.4% of the overall CO2 That in turn represents 0.00136% of the total atmosphere. Fact.
> Of that 3.4% of human contribution to a very useful gas, responsible for life on earth ... Australians are responsible for ... 1.3%. That is 1.3% of the total human contribution and not 1.3% of the total CO2 otherwise we would have one third of total human contribution. Therefore Australians contributes 0.0442% to the overall CO2.
> Amazing!
> Furthermore if you listen to the green machine, we are also responsible for the potential CO2 created by other countries because we mine coal for them to burn so the CO2 is counted twice. First because we mine it and then because they burn it.
> That is your logic. 
> I am afraid that A J has not much to do with that. 
> By the way, still waiting on an answer as to by how much will the temperature drop if Australia stops all CO2 contribution by that whopping 0.0442% at the cost of shutting down all activity and all dropping dead. 
> Furthermore, by how much will the planet temperature drop if all human life disappears from earth? 
> ...

  You are still playing percent-a-gymnasts (or is that Alan-Jones-a-gymnastics?) with your numbers and confusing yourself. 
Australia’s contribution is 1.3% - it is as simple as that (plus exports of carbon). There is no point multiplying that by some arbitrary number (even if it somehow seems related). 
It may we’ll be that the human activity has seeming only added a small percentage of CO2 in the carbon cycle, however that is ‘extra’ carbon that isn’t balanced by the natural sinks so it is causing about 100% of the global warming!

----------


## Bros

I think its time we came back on topic not moving into emissions. While electric cars and emissions are linked some have gone to far. 
So back on topic.

----------


## DavoSyd

Oh dear, you guys have exceeded the *Marc threshold* 
Its OK to talk about "CO2 fraud" in a bushfire preparation thread, but not OK to talk about CO2 emissions in an electric car thread.

----------


## Marc

I can see that you got nothing so can't reply. 
The fact remains that Australia contributes an infinitesimal fraction of the total CO2. The idea that it is only human contribution that counts only proves the fallacy of your argument.  
If CO2 in general has some effect on greenhouse, something that is dubious since water vapour is so much more abundant, it is the total that counts.If the imaginary deleterious effect would be in need to be reduced, this can only be done reducing our contribution by some percentage.  
For argument sake say that 100% of australian contribution is wiped out, what is the end result? Can we save the planet by committing suicide? The answer is of course not. No change will occur and the same with the rest of humankind.
So the whole exercise is pointless.  
If we then are sabotaging our economic existence for just a small fraction of "reduction" for some phantomatic pathetic delirious dogmatic idea of collectivism, then i am afraid I must digress. 
I love CO2  
Any government action to spend trillions of dollars must have a plan and a purpose. We must carefully provide a detailed plan and explain the advantage to the expenditure in detail. If we spend a billion we reduce temperatures by X C. if we spend two billions we achieve twice the reduction.
Who can say that we are achieving anything at all or that we can reduce temperatures by any measurable effect? No one, it is all a collective delusion generated by a small group of very clever individuals.  
The way it is now, we are paying tribute to the altar of green idiocy to appease the gods of greeneland just like the Aztecs did human sacrifice to achieve a better harvest and with the same logic because there is no cause and effect between what we spend and a potential result. Nothing, nada, zero. Only political claptrap. 
Electric cars are a byproduct of the CO2 histeria, just like solar panels and wind turbines. When electric cars have an obvious value to reduce air pollution if they are charged by solar panels and if the solar panels manufacture does not produce another form of pollution, something that is yet to be proven, they are sold on the base of "being green" whatever that means, on the fallacy of reducing CO2 in the atmosphere, and it is that fallacy that I object. CO2 demonisation is the biggest fraud ever. 
And the elephant in the room is of course manufacturing of electric cars and batteries. how much additional pollution are they causing? Oh but you can not talk about that. It is a sin.

----------


## Moondog55

Marc the Aztecs [ and the Maori ] didn't practice human sacrifice to propitiate the gods and ensure a harvest, their society was simply protein deficient because of the reliance on maize and other people were the best source of good protein.

----------


## METRIX

> *Elon Musk Hits Traffic Pylon With New Cybertruck After Dinner In Malibu*      https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/12/e...ner-in-malibu/

  Ha ha this article is so gutter trash, hits a pylon, clearly a pylon is something thst hold up bridges, electric wires or some other major structure, it is not a small ill placed what looked like a temporary bollard made of plastic, and making out it was the size of a child has no relevance,  
Also whining about it being a prototype and on the road, so they seriously think other manufacturers don't drive protons on the road.  
What about all those wild discussed cars with all the spots and spirals stuck all over them to distract your views of the car, do they think these are not in some form of proto. 
Probably another gutter press company backed by the petroleum industry printing as Donald would say, fake news

----------


## Spottiswoode

https://travelandmobility.tech/infog...ransport-type/

----------


## METRIX

> @METRIX 
> Cybertruck in the wild:  https://imgur.com/gallery/ozNTBbJ

  Looks good, imagine someone driving along who hasn't heard about it ant it goes past you, you woukd think WT is that. :Biggrin: :

----------


## Marc

> Marc the Aztecs [ and the Maori ] didn't practice human sacrifice to propitiate the gods and ensure a harvest, their society was simply protein deficient because of the reliance on maize and other people were the best source of good protein.

  Interesting. Don't know about Maori, but that version of events is discredited and lacking of evidence in Aztec culture. Most agree that it was political propaganda from the Spanish to justify their own abuses, in collusion with the priest that wanted to "convert" them. 
Yes, religious propaganda has been around for a long time and it is still used today very convincingly. 
Buy an electric car! Save the planet from the heretical oil companies!  :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

> Ha ha this article is so gutter trash, hits a pylon, clearly a pylon is something thst hold up bridges, electric wires or some other major structure, it is not a small ill placed what looked like a temporary bollard made of plastic, and making out it was the size of a child has no relevance,

  A search of Traffic Pylons might help, https://www.google.com/search?client...QPsAtAQ4dUDCAY    

> Probably another gutter press company backed by the petroleum industry printing as Donald would say, fake news

  Oh, ok thanks.

----------


## METRIX

> It will be interesting to see how the tyres react to these hub cap/wheel covers due to cornering forces or when run at off-road pressures.

   I think those hub cap things would be given the flick quick smart if you intended on taking it off road. 
I have always replaced the OEM tires / rims the second I drive it out of the dealer to decent off road A/Ttires and better looking rims, I assume this will be the case with Cyber as well. 
Tyre places pay a premium for the OEM tyres, and you sell the rims on ebay, covers about 80-90% of the cost of the new rims and tyres.

----------


## METRIX

> A search of Traffic Pylons might help, https://www.google.com/search?client...QPsAtAQ4dUDCAY    
> Oh, ok thanks.

  DOH, must of missed the traffic word,  was having breakfast and coffee, trying to get into gear after a work Christmas party last night   :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

----------


## METRIX

> @METRIX 
> Cybertruck in the wild:  https://imgur.com/gallery/ozNTBbJ

----------


## METRIX

> I can see that you got nothing so can't reply. 
> The fact remains that Australia contributes an infinitesimal fraction of the total CO2. The idea that it is only human contribution that counts only proves the fallacy of your argument.  
> If CO2 in general has some effect on greenhouse, something that is dubious since water vapour is so much more abundant, it is the total that counts.If the imaginary deleterious effect would be in need to be reduced, this can only be done reducing our contribution by some percentage.  
> For argument sake say that 100% of australian contribution is wiped out, what is the end result? Can we save the planet by committing suicide? The answer is of course not. No change will occur and the same with the rest of humankind.
> So the whole exercise is pointless.  
> If we then are sabotaging our economic existence for just a small fraction of "reduction" for some phantomatic pathetic delirious dogmatic idea of collectivism, then i am afraid I must digress. 
> I love CO2  
> Any government action to spend trillions of dollars must have a plan and a purpose. We must carefully provide a detailed plan and explain the advantage to the expenditure in detail. If we spend a billion we reduce temperatures by X C. if we spend two billions we achieve twice the reduction.
> Who can say that we are achieving anything at all or that we can reduce temperatures by any measurable effect? No one, it is all a collective delusion generated by a small group of very clever individuals.  
> ...

  
Marc you must love this thread, bit like a kid in a lolly shop. 
I think you started it purely because you were bored, bet you can't wait to get home from the shop, or back from the pub, or the latest anti climate change rally you attend to see what sillyness has been posted here by the hypnotised,  :Biggrin: . 
I can see you race in the door, get comfortable in your favourite chair, turn that computer on to smoke up those keys, it's such fun reading your replies,  :Tongue:  :Biggrin:  
Your face has been covered to protect your identity

----------


## chrisp

It seems that Mr Morrison has been listening to Alan Jones too. 
He is apparently trying assure Australians that his government is taking climate change seriously by using much the same false argument as Marc...     

> Australia is 1.3 per cent of global emissions and NSW is I think less than 0.5 per cent of emissions. And so any suggestion that the actions of any state or any country with emissions of that order is directly linked to any weather event ... is simply not true."

  https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...12-p53j8t.html 
Convincing - no!  Sad - yes! 
So, Mr Morrison, what percentage of the worlds population lives in NSW? 
Im sure that hell send his thoughts and prays to deal with the issues!   :Smilie:

----------


## Bedford

> I think those hub cap things would be given the flick quick smart if you intended on taking it off road.

  So... they are no good?  :Biggrin:  I think they'd come under the category of pedestrian slicers similar to the front mudguards on the 1965 HD Holden, these were removed by Holden on the next (HR) model.   

> and better looking rims,

  Well, that's always important..........   

> Tyre places pay a premium for the OEM tyres, and you sell the rims on ebay, covers about 80-90% of the cost of the new rims and tyres.

  I think I would keep the original rims and tyres because one day you might have the only CyberTruck left in existence and it would lose a lot of value with just a set of Bob Jane allrounders under it.

----------


## METRIX

> Well, that's always important..........

  Yes it is, have you seen some of the ugly OEM rims that come on the vehicles these days  :Biggrin:     

> I think I would keep the original rims and tyres because one day you might have the only CyberTruck left in existence and it would lose a lot of value with just a set of Bob Jane allrounders under it.

  I don't keep a vehicle that long to worry about stuff like that, BJ allrounders, do they make them in 33 or 35"  :Biggrin:

----------


## Marc

I like electric cars  :Smilie:  
https://youtu.be/x6eagyZegcg

----------


## John2b

"aud rrp from $209,000"

----------


## METRIX

> I like electric cars  
> https://youtu.be/x6eagyZegcg

  Great looking truck one little problem is the starting price of $209,000  :Eek:   :Eek:   :Eek: , that starting price is not the one in the video, it's the bare bones one pictured below. 
Even the $54,000 drive away XLT Ranger cost from $98,000 again for a very basic looking one with a tray. 
The poor mans $45,000 drive away XLS Ranger starts from $85,000. 
PCOR are a joke, you are paying through the nose for a lot of advertising and overpriced toys for this guy. 
Can't wait for Ford to be be producing RHD versions of the next F series which are meant to be coming here, Ford are dragging their heels regarding a RHD version, meanwhile Ram and Silverado are already here with RHD converted versions backed by factory warranties. 
Ford better get their act together or they will miss out on a market already forged by the Ranger.

----------


## Marc

Yes, not cheap. However it is a toy that is not supposed to be cheap. 
"I always hated trucks, but I love the Cibertuck" 
Opinions.  https://youtu.be/L3R0WlhZplY

----------


## METRIX

> Yes, not cheap. However it is a toy that is not supposed to be cheap.

  PCOR stuff is only for Rich Wanna B'S with money to burn and want the bragging rights to show they got taken for a ride. 
Why would you spend $200,000+ for an entry level PCOR when you can configure your own $139,000 RAM the way you wan't it.
ss he said the Ram comes out of the factory ready to go so all you may want to do is change some suspension bits and change to different wheel / tires . 
Hop on over to Norweld, get them to build you a fully customised tray to do exactly what you want, not one of PCOR overpriced show off trays.
If Norweld is too expensive there a re plenty of other great tray builders out there who will fully customise one for you. 
For the entry price of $60,000 on top of purchasing the truck you ain't getting much. 
$60,000 can buy you an awful lot of stuff to customise your RAM to much higher spec than his entry level one.

----------


## John2b

The argument that by not paying fuel excise owners of BEV aren't contributing their share to the cost of roads is BS. 
According to government records fuel excise collected is around $10billion per year, a huge shortfall over the cost of subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. 
If government stopped subsidising the petroleum industry _and_ stopped collecting excise the would be a huge benefit to the federal budget. 
"In 2017, global fossil fuel subsidies grew to $5.2 trillion, representing 6.5 per cent of combined global GDP. 
"The IMF estimates that annual energy subsidies in Australia total $29 billion, representing 2.3 per cent of Australian GDP. On a per capita basis, Australian fossil fuel subsidies amount to $1,198 per person."  https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2019/05/02/Global-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-Remain-Large-An-Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509

----------


## phild01

> The argument that by not paying fuel excise owners of BEV aren't contributing their share to the cost of roads is BS. 
> According to government records fuel excise collected is around $10billion per year, a huge shortfall over the cost of subsidies to the fossil fuel industry.

  What are the subsidies by the Australian government to the petroleum industry?

----------


## Marc

> The argument that by not paying fuel excise owners of BEV aren't contributing their share to the cost of roads is BS. 
> According to government records fuel excise collected is around $10billion per year, a huge shortfall over the cost of subsidies to the fossil fuel industry. 
> If government stopped subsidising the petroleum industry _and_ stopped collecting excise the would be a huge benefit to the federal budget.

  That is a typical straw man argument. It equates to argue that since the government squanders money on stupid quest like $500 billions thrown away to the barrier reef and given to someone who did not ask for it ... i will stop paying income tax.
If you run on electricity you are evading excise tax and leaving the burden of that tax to the fuel cars. Fact.
Obviously the government does not care, because the number of electric cars is minuscule, a curiosity and changes now would make them look bad and "anti future"  :Blush7:  
If the number of EC grows to a significant number, the excise tax will be slapped on electricity, charging your car from domestic outlets banned and meters with differential price for cars enforced.
Some farmers have to pay for the water they collect in their dams on the argument that it would otherwise flow to the river and is therefore taken away from the "environmental flow' (Damn the greens).
How long until the sun that hits the solar panels will have a tax on it because  ... mm ... you are stopping it from warming the earth?

----------


## Marc

Most if not all the problems faced by human kind stem from politicians, bureaucrats and assorted morons who have made it to the ruling elite. 
What is the difference between the king and his courtesan and our system? Answer: nothing.   
Democracy is an illusion. We are taken for a ride in almost every direction you care talking about. We have fake "leaders", fake teachers, fake money, fake religions and fake moral directions.
PS
Forgot fake science.

----------


## John2b

Not sure that those farmers downstream of the Darling would agree that those upstream are entitled to as much as they can dam and extract.

----------


## Marc

What else would you say right? 
Fake moral superiority.

----------


## Bros

> Most if not all the problems faced by human kind stem from politicians, bureaucrats and assorted morons who have made it to the ruling elite. 
> What is the difference between the king and his courtesan and our system? Answer: nothing.   
> Democracy is an illusion. We are taken for a ride in almost every direction you care talking about. We have fake "leaders", fake teachers, fake money, fake religions and fake moral directions.
> PS
> Forgot fake science.

  I don't entirely agree but as I got older I get the feeling those in politics are nothing but cynics, however the alternative is not the best either.

----------


## PhilT2

Hard to look at the govt without looking at the voters who put them there. We're the people who want Aust jobs but prefer to buy imported goods. We want population and economic growth but won't have enough kids to maintain current population, definitely don't want migrants either. Demand for govt services is high, willingness to fund them is low. The govt funds research organisations that are respected worldwide but we get our information from conspiracy nutters on the internet. 
We have the govt we deserve.

----------


## Marc

Agreed. 
The lefties have learned long time ago that by brainwashing children and young adults in school and university, they produce large numbers of idiot votes who will vote for handouts, subsidies, doctrine and rhetoric, and facilitate authoritarianism, violation of private property, and more freedom of speech restrictions and political correctness.  
Venezuela and Argentina are a case in point. Australia is not far behind, just look at our schools rankings and compare with 30 years ago. 
As long as we have voters who vote in, the Keynesian economic fraud, we will continue to have Labour, who proudly believes that putting money into peoples pocket will kick start growth when all it does is produce misery and inflation, and the other side the pseudo Liberals who water down their pseudo policies just in case they may upset the idiot labor voters.    
It is a lose lose situation, until we get our version of D.Trump or Boris Johnson. No luck so far. Our "Liberals" are a joke, all of them. 
And in the process of this exercise in idiocy, we have all but eliminated our industry, increased our immigration intake to absurd levels without any increase in infrastructure. Look at the water situation. We have not increased our holding capacity in 50 years yet we have allowed population to grow almost tri fold from 1960. Now we have water restrictions that blame the consumer by elevation. 
And here we are debating the value of electric cars, made overseas by violating other people's environment, using our coal to produce them, dumping them on our shores for us to find a way to get rid of them when they become obsolete. 
Oh but hei!! They save the planet!! don't have any emissions!!  
Where is my puke bucket please ... 
We need a revolution.

----------


## Uncle Bob

Gee Marc, isn't there some other neo fascist forum to can take this rubbish to?

----------


## John2b

Around the world around somewhere between 170 and 200 electric planes are under development, because the operating cost of electric planes (maintenance and cost of energy combined) is estimated to be less than ⅓ that of jet engined planes. There are even hybrid systems under development where a jet engine powers a generator to runs small lightweight motors that can be placed in positions like wingtips for better aerodynamic efficiency.  https://qz.com/1650449/electric-airp...aris-air-show/

----------


## John2b

So Australia doubles the number and capacity of water storages. Where does the extra water come from? There isn't enough rain now to fill the existing storages in a typical year.

----------


## Bedford

> So Australia doubles the number and capacity of water storages. Where does the extra water come from? There isn't enough rain now to fill the existing storages in a typical year.

  So, storage dams and reservoirs only collect water from rain?

----------


## John2b

The Australian Federal government is now paying South Australia to run its desalination plant at capacity in order to buy back some of SA's Murray water allocation for upstream users. The NSW government wants SA to fill the 650 square kilometre freshwater Lake Alexandrina with seawater so that the Murray water that normally fills it can be diverted to upstream users, never mind that the effect on the local farming economy or ecology.

----------


## Marc

In 50 years we had cycles o drought and floods like we had for the last 2000 years. Had we increased storage capacity to 2 or 3 times, we would have water for all cities from the times of plenty. Ordinary prevention strategies. Same logic used to put money aside, food in the fridge etc. 
Furthermore there is an overabundance of water in the north. Yes, cost for pipeline is billions. We could have started with the half billion squandered by the delusional moron that gave the money to an incompetent organisation that did not ask for it.  
Bob, you throwaway line is not new to me. It is a typical knee jerk reaction from the lefty mentality that wants to suppress everything they don't agree with. Just like it is happening on all university campus all around the world. It is pathetic and regrettable. 
The theoretical democratic system is one of freedom to express one's principles and beliefs. The leftist system is one of suppression  and censorship with the excuse of the comon good. The left knows better what is good for me. Nothing new Bob.

----------


## John2b

> So, storage dams and reservoirs only collect water from rain?

  Whatever, there isn't enough water flowing in the system to fill current storages given current outflows.

----------


## John2b

Doing more of what has caused the water problem is never going to solve it, not ever.

----------


## chrisp

> Gee Marc, isn't there some other neo fascist forum to can take this rubbish to?

  But, what would we do without Marc’s rants!!! 
I think that Marc’s rant-posts do provide entertainment and an unique satirical take on the hard-done-by-extreme-right-winger type (or is that the I’m-being-resented-for-being-rich type?).   :Smilie:

----------


## Marc

*The rise of the intolerant left.* 
Fortunately i am not the only one that can see the rise of Stalinism.  https://www.ocregister.com/2019/06/2...ntolerant-left 
/

----------


## Marc

> So Australia doubles the number and capacity of water storages. Where does the extra water come from? There isn't enough rain now to fill the existing storages in a typical year.

   John, your post have usually a vestige of intelligence in them. This one is rather dumb. Are you seriously saying that because it does not rain today, we shouldn't make provision to harvest future rain overflow? Or do you subscribe to the end of the world global warming catastrophe, never will the dam be full again ?  Who said that? Flapping gums Flanagan? 
i wonder if Tim Flapping has an electric car? May be even a Cibertruck?

----------


## John2b

> John, your post have usually a vestige of intelligence in them. This one is rather dumb.

  I thought doing the same thing whilst expecting a different outcome was dumb. Silly me!

----------


## Bros

I use electric cars when I go to the big smoke. Did so last week when I was in Brisbane.

----------


## Spottiswoode

> I use electric cars when I go to the big smoke. Did so last week when I was in Brisbane.

  Do you think theyll start calling it the big spark once they ban ICE cars? 
I guess Marc is going to block you now.

----------


## Bros

> I guess Marc is going to block you now.

  I think he's made of sterner stuff.

----------


## METRIX

I get the feeling this electric car topic has gone completely off the rails and has become an outlet for some people political views, maybe these comments need to be shifted to a new non electric car thread as they have nothing to do with the original topic.

----------


## John2b

> I get the feeling this electric car topic has gone completely off the rails and has become an outlet for some people political views, maybe these comments need to be shifted to a new non electric car thread as they have nothing to do with the original topic.

   Time to get back onto the topic of the idiots like me who buy electric cars. Here are the rules: 
1. Only people who don't own electric vehicles can know how bad they are and some feel they have a duty to spread the information to everyone. 
2. People who do own electric vehicles and think they are great are clearly demented. If in doubt, refer to rule 1. 
Fact: Car manufacturers are all moving to BEV platforms, to a large degree because customers who have owned BEVS don't want to go back to ICE propulsion and the manufacturers are reading the writing on the wall and want to stay in business. Obviously the manufacturers are demented too (refer to rule 1).

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Time to get back onto the topic of the idiots like me who buy electric cars. Here are the rules: 
> 1. Only people who don't own electric vehicles can know how bad they are and some feel they have a duty to spread the information to everyone. 
> 2. People who do own electric vehicles and think they are great are clearly demented. If in doubt, refer to rule 1. 
> Fact: Car manufacturers are all moving to BEV platforms, to a large degree because customers who have owned BEVS don't want to go back to ICE propulsion and the manufacturers are reading the writing on the wall and want to stay in business. Obviously the manufacturers are demented too (refer to rule 1).

  I think those rules will provide the greatest entertainment...so I support them!

----------


## SilentButDeadly

I've been having a thunk. 
Thunking is not unlike thinking...the only difference is that the penny hasn't dropped. 
Anyway...our current ICE powered cars date from simpler times. And both are getting tired in the driveline department. One is an SF Forester and the other is a VW T4 Transporter dual cab chassis. While their greasy bits are worn...the rest of them is mostly fine. No rust, few dings, very sound...we've had them since they were new back around the turn of the century. 
Replacing both with their modern equivalents would cost us the best part of $90,000. And then depreciation would likely see them lose a third of their value within three year. Might as well set fire to money. 
We have entertained the idea of having the Forester engine rebuilt when we have to replace the original clutch (not bad for a Subaru that's done 275,000 km... original head gaskets too!). I have also entertained the idea of putting a Porsche Boxster driveline in the back of the T4...we have the farm ute after all!! 
But recent developments such as GM's proposed electric 'crate' engine as a way of repowering classic GM vehicles has bought me back around to electric conversion of our cars. 
The Forester generally only does short daily commutes to town and the odd district drive. The T4 does city and regional centre trips on occasion (2 to 6 hours one way) but mostly around town as well - it has sufficient room for a heck of a lot of batteries though so there's considerable range potential. 
I think it might be a valid and practical (and even economic) option to explore. 
My one concern though is torque. Neither of these vehicles is a torque monster. Even when it was new, the 2.5 litre TDi in tge T4 was flat out doing 300 torques. The boxer engine in the Forester is even more underwhelming. And in both cases, much of the rest of the driveline was specified accordingly - especially the T4 (and before anyone reminds me about the Porsche thing - the entire driveline would have been swapped!). 
However, many electric motors not only deliver instantaneous torque...they can put out oodles of it. And I'm a tad concerned about repowering a vehicle that then proceeds to tear itself to bits as gearboxes, diffs, CV joints, driveshafts, wheel bearings and various driveline mounts give up under the load. Are these thoughts rational or unreasonable?

----------


## Moondog55

Don't forget that a standard gearbox acts as a torque multiplier so the drive-train after the gearbox should be able to handle plenty of grunt

----------


## Spottiswoode

To me it sounds reasonable. Yes, an electric conversion will probably get more torque and from zero revs, but that also depends on your right foot! Drive it as fast as you currently do and you shouldnt have dramas. It’s onky when you go forcing things harder than designed for that you get breakages. 
i also think conversion is much closer to a valid option than buying new. Issue is that there aren’t enough conversions/companies around yet to make it easy, reliable and budget friendly. Unless you are willing to have a go yourself it could cost a bit much.  
Im keen to have a crack at converting a vintage car. Takes away some of the dramas of matching with modern technology and there are less safety things that need to be maintained. Makes it simpler when there is no AC, power steer, airbags etc.

----------


## chrisp

> I've been having a thunk. 
> Thunking is not unlike thinking...the only difference is that the penny hasn't dropped. 
> Anyway...our current ICE powered cars date from simpler times. And both are getting tired in the driveline department. One is an SF Forester and the other is a VW T4 Transporter dual cab chassis. While their greasy bits are worn...the rest of them is mostly fine. No rust, few dings, very sound...we've had them since they were new back around the turn of the century. 
> Replacing both with their modern equivalents would cost us the best part of $90,000. And then depreciation would likely see them lose a third of their value within three year. Might as well set fire to money. 
> We have entertained the idea of having the Forester engine rebuilt when we have to replace the original clutch (not bad for a Subaru that's done 275,000 km... original head gaskets too!). I have also entertained the idea of putting a Porsche Boxster driveline in the back of the T4...we have the farm ute after all!! 
> But recent developments such as GM's proposed electric 'crate' engine as a way of repowering classic GM vehicles has bought me back around to electric conversion of our cars. 
> The Forester generally only does short daily commutes to town and the odd district drive. The T4 does city and regional centre trips on occasion (2 to 6 hours one way) but mostly around town as well - it has sufficient room for a heck of a lot of batteries though so there's considerable range potential. 
> I think it might be a valid and practical (and even economic) option to explore. 
> My one concern though is torque. Neither of these vehicles is a torque monster. Even when it was new, the 2.5 litre TDi in tge T4 was flat out doing 300 torques. The boxer engine in the Forester is even more underwhelming. And in both cases, much of the rest of the driveline was specified accordingly - especially the T4 (and before anyone reminds me about the Porsche thing - the entire driveline would have been swapped!). 
> However, many electric motors not only deliver instantaneous torque...they can put out oodles of it. And I'm a tad concerned about repowering a vehicle that then proceeds to tear itself to bits as gearboxes, diffs, CV joints, driveshafts, wheel bearings and various driveline mounts give up under the load. Are these thoughts rational or unreasonable?

  “Are these thoughts rational or unreasonable?” Wow! That has to be one of the most rational posts in this thread (other than Metrix’s parts about joining the queue to buy a new EV). 
As someone who has done several conversions - starting with the old DC conversions (one that could produce more than 1000 ft.lb from a series wound motor) and more modern HEV to PHEV conversions, and even a HEV to grid interactive-PHEV (with full certification and approval for use on the electricity grid). my suggestion would be - don’t do a conversion unless you want the enjoyment and challenge of the conversion process. For everyday transport, I’d recommend buy a purpose built vehicle (secondhand if cost or depreciation is an issue). 
If you do go down the conversion route, I’d be pretty sure that you’ll be able to configure the controller to limit the torque to the limits of the drive train. However, keep in mind that most ICE drive trains are quite lossy and this will impact on the electric range, so a conversion probably won’t be anywhere as efficient as a purpose designed vehicle.

----------


## John2b

> My one concern though is torque. Neither of these vehicles is a torque monster. Even when it was new, the 2.5 litre TDi in tge T4 was flat out doing 300 torques. The boxer engine in the Forester is even more underwhelming. And in both cases, much of the rest of the driveline was specified accordingly - especially the T4 (and before anyone reminds me about the Porsche thing - the entire driveline would have been swapped!). 
> However, many electric motors not only deliver instantaneous torque...they can put out oodles of it. And I'm a tad concerned about repowering a vehicle that then proceeds to tear itself to bits as gearboxes, diffs, CV joints, driveshafts, wheel bearings and various driveline mounts give up under the load. Are these thoughts rational or unreasonable?

  An ICE drivetrain must be able to endure the peak driveshaft snapping torque that happens when a highly revved engine connects through a dropped clutch. That high ratio of 'peak torque' relative to 'normal torque' does not occur in a clutch-less, constantly meshed BEV drive. Even in a clutched drive conversion the lightweight rotor of an electric motor does not have anywhere near the rotational inertia of its equivalent ICE and will not produce the same level of driveshaft snapping torque on dropping the clutch that the ICE would.

----------


## Marc

> An ICE drivetrain must be able to endure the peak driveshaft snapping torque that happens when a highly revved engine connects through a dropped clutch. That high ratio of 'peak torque' relative to 'normal torque' does not occur in a clutch-less, constantly meshed BEV drive. Even in a clutched drive conversion the lightweight rotor of an electric motor does not have anywhere near the rotational inertia of its equivalent ICE and will not produce the same level of driveshaft snapping torque on dropping the clutch that the ICE would.

  Agreed. 
Furthermore, the fuse in this situation is the friction between tyre and road. Give it too much and you burn tyre. No harm done, only to the tyre. 
A conversion to an older vehicle can be fun. Plenty done in the sixties and seventies to old muscle cars using industrial motors and acid lead batteries. 
Not sure of the cost side of things or if the contraption will be road legal. 
I bet you will be able to flaut half of the rules imposed to normal cars because of trend, fashion and political correctness.  :Smilie:

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## Marc

After sending scores of business broke, blowing the budget to double, and disrupting traffic for what seems an eternity, the light rail opens.
And after this experiment in futility is done and dusted we have the usual morons in charge telling us that they have yet another brain fart. No more light rail for sydney, we will invent the ... trolleybus. 
Idiocy has no boundaries. Trolleybus built first by Siemens in 1882 have a century and more of history, and don't require to dig up the road. 
We tore down the monorail and spent 2+ billions to build a glorified tramway. And one question: Why is "driverless" an advantage to be paraded around? I consider it a severe handicap as proven the first day of opening.  
Yes, the "light rail" (tramway) is electric ... woohoo ... at least it has the decency of not having batteries  :2thumbsup:

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> Are these thoughts rational or unreasonable? Wow! That has to be one of the most rational posts in this thread (other than Metrixs parts about joining the queue to buy a new EV). 
> As someone who has done several conversions - starting with the old DC conversions (one that could produce more than 1000 ft.lb from a series wound motor) and more modern HEV to PHEV conversions, and even a HEV to grid interactive-PHEV (with full certification and approval for use on the electricity grid). my suggestion would be - dont do a conversion unless you want the enjoyment and challenge of the conversion process. For everyday transport, Id recommend buy a purpose built vehicle (secondhand if cost or depreciation is an issue). 
> If you do go down the conversion route, Id be pretty sure that youll be able to configure the controller to limit the torque to the limits of the drive train. However, keep in mind that most ICE drive trains are quite lossy and this will impact on the electric range, so a conversion probably wont be anywhere as efficient as a purpose designed vehicle.

  Cool. The VW would be more straightforward to convert given the level of access to the driveline. However, because it is AWD and the 'transfer case' is just a bevel box on one side of the gearbox feeding a viscous coupling in front to the rear diff...it's actually complicated. 
I'd prefer to delete the gearbox AND rear diff and just go with either one or two motors but two motors (one on each axle) raises issues of control. So perhaps go RWD with one motor. 
Packaging the Forester would even worse if one wanted to delete the old driveline so that might be a go for a direct gearbox connection... 
Ultimately...I'm probably doing nothing more than dreaming but it just seems like waste of otherwise good cars to not convert them. 
Buying a new EV is simply out of our budget plus none of the current crop are really suited to our practical needs...still a few years to go before more appropriate and more affordable choices are available for our needs.  
Hence the conversion thoughts and the hope that more kit or crate conversion options become available.

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## SilentButDeadly

> blah de blah de rant rant

  Last time I looked...mass public transport and cars were two different things. No matter how they were powered.

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## John2b

https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com?

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## SilentButDeadly

> https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com?

  Might work but I look forward to less rattly options...

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## Marc

> https://www.ozdiyelectricvehicles.com?

  With those prices, you are better off buying a new car, or a grey import like John did. 
Conversion kits are way cheaper in the US, as usual. But I like the old way of acid batteries that cost $150 rather than $14,000. Plenty of youtube videos. Here is one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiO1HeeWETo

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## John2b

> With those prices, you are better off buying a new car, or a grey import like John did.

   Nah not grey - got an Arctic White one... :Biggrin:

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## phild01

Geeze, hope those rafters stay up  :Cry:

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## John2b

> Geeze, hope those rafters stay up

  It was designed to look minimalist but looks can be deceiving. The carport withstood 100kph gusts a couple of months ago without so much as a creak.

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## Bedford

> Nah not grey - got an Arctic White one...

  
Nice smoke stack......... :Rolleyes:

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## SilentButDeadly

> Nice smoke stack.........

  At least his @@@@ isn't likely connected to it...unlike others in this place.

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## METRIX

> Nice smoke stack.........

  Is he not allowed to have a slow combustion burner irrespective of what he drives.

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## Bedford

> Is he not allowed to have a slow combustion burner irrespective of what he drives.

  John will do whatever John wants to do, how did you know it was a _slow_ combustion burner?

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## METRIX

> John will do whatever John wants to do, how did you know it was a _slow_ combustion burner?

  Well what else would it be, a brown coal burner perhaps it is and it drives a turbine to generate power and charge his car  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  
I would have a slow combustion any day over other forms of heating

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## John2b

> I would have a slow combustion any day over other forms of heating

  I agree. And not only does it warm the house, it cooks the dinner and heats the water when there isn't enough sun, all from timber we've grown on our property.

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## METRIX

> I agree. And not only does it warm the house, it cooks the dinner and heats the water when there isn't enough sun, all from timber we've grown on our property.

  
Oh bugger, I was hoping you had a mini brown coal  burner

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## John2b

> Oh bugger, I was hoping you had a mini brown coal  burner

  When we bought the property the house actually had two slow combustion Nectre fireplaces installed on the lower level, a 'Mega' with a huge firebox and a 'Baker's Oven' with a tiny firebox. The smaller Nectre is more than enough to heat both floors of the house and cook dinner, so we removed the Mega and sold it.

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## Marc

> ... so we removed the Mega and sold it.

  The planet is safe now  :Rofl5: 
To balance things out, I installed a slow combustion long time ago, heats up both levels all by itself. 
Now have also an open fire insert in an old abandoned and boarded over open fireplace in the living room. I don't really need it but installed it just because I can  :Smilie:  
I wonder if I can have a solar powered open fireplace? i suppose that given the right size motorized parabolic mirror ( made in china with rare earth and manufactured by displacing 3 towns and demolishing a couple of mountains) , and the right size heat sink to accumulate heat during the day ( mined in Bulgaria polluting 3 rivers)  ... mm ... may be next chapter.  :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> When we bought the property the house actually had two slow combustion Nectre fireplaces installed on the lower level, a 'Mega' with a huge firebox and a 'Baker's Oven' with a tiny firebox. The smaller Nectre is more than enough to heat both floors of the house and cook dinner, so we removed the Mega and sold it.

  What do you use during summer to cook with ?

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## METRIX

> I wonder if I can have a solar powered open fireplace? i suppose that given the right size motorized parabolic mirror ( made in china with rare earth and manufactured by displacing 3 towns and demolishing a couple of mountains) , and the right size heat sink to accumulate heat during the day ( mined in Bulgaria polluting 3 rivers)  ... mm ... may be next chapter.

  
No need to go to that trouble just get a new electric insert with real looking flames, run it off solar.  https://www.amazon.com.au/Modaliving...65032042&psc=1

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## Marc

Now now ... you always the practical type. No need to buy virtual flames from Moldova? :Biggrin:

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## John2b

> What do you use during summer to cook with ?

  We have both an electric oven and a gas oven. We use the electric if the sun's shining and the gas if we don't have surplus solar and the fire isn't on. The electric oven is under a breezeway outside so that it doesn't heat up the house as it's mostly used in summer for baking our sourdough bread.

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## Bros

In the library and picked up the Silicon Chip magazine which had an article on the Hybrid car.  
I never read it all (it was the latest and not for loan yet) but it was interesting in that the engine is an Atkinson cycle (never heard of it nor the Otto cycle either). 
It is ingenious how it operates with two motors doing different jobs driving the shaft.

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## Marc

*British Police Admit Electric Vehicles are Useless for Police Work*  Eric Worrall / 1 day ago December 26, 2019 UK Police Lego. Rob Young from United Kingdom [CC BY 2.0], via Wikimedia Commons (image modified)*Guest essay by Eric Worrall* h/t Breitbart; Police forces in Britain are facing questions over the waste of millions of pounds purchasing electric vehicles which are not up to the job of chasing criminals or responding to emergency situations.*Police ‘waste’ £1.5MILLION on electric cars that they admit are useless for chasing criminals because they ‘can’t go fast enough or far enough without a battery change’*  *Reports found cars do not meet demands of urgent response or pursuit driving**Forces have bought at least 448 environmentally-friendly vehicles to help them* *However* *almost all cars and vans are being used in non-emergency situations*  By MARTIN BECKFORD FOR THE DAILY MAIL *PUBLISHED:* 09:04 AEDT, 24 December 2019 | *UPDATED:* 10:45 AEDT, 24 December 2019 Police have spent millions of pounds on electric cars they admit are useless for chasing suspects or rushing to help victims. Forces around the country have bought at least 448 environmentally-friendly vehicles to help them meet green energy targets. But almost all of the cars and vans are being used in non-emergency situations or by chiefs to get to work. Official police reports conceded that electric vehicles cannot meet the demands of urgent response or pursuit driving. They take too long to charge up to be ready for 999 calls and could run out of battery before a shift ends. … Read more: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...criminals.html Isn’t this senseless waste of precious police resources just the epitome of green groupthink? Greens know renewables are not viable in their current form, at least the smart greens know this – but they still advocate spending billions of dollars building them. Any police chief with a minute of operational experience must have known upfront that electric vehicles were useless – but they all went ahead and bought hundreds of the things. _When historians look back at our time, it won’t be the delusions of impending eco-doom which define us, it will be the mind boggling waste, the cash expenditures authorized by politicians and senior executives who knew upfront what they were buying would not work, but paid the money anyway._

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## UseByDate

> In the library and picked up the Silicon Chip magazine which had an article on the Hybrid car.  
> I never read it all (it was the latest and not for loan yet) but it was interesting in that the engine is an Atkinson cycle (never heard of it nor the Otto cycle either). 
> It is ingenious how it operates with two motors doing different jobs driving the shaft.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKKILW3Zj_Y

----------


## Spottiswoode

> *British Police Admit Electric Vehicles are Useless for Police Work*

   Typical of the daily mail. Sensationalist headline and cherry picking report. Sure, electric cars aren’t useful for pursuit work and possibly emergency stuff but what percentage of the fleet is actively used for that and what percentage has been replaced by electric. It also doesn’t say what type of vehicle has been purchased. Electric would be perfect for prisoner transport, shuttling evidence to and from storage and all that sort of non urgent work. Just because some vehicles need to be ready for emergencies and pursuit doesn’t mean all of them are.  
As for renewables ‘not economically viable’ another uninformed opinion piece with zero scientific (or economic) evidence. Just because it’s on the internet doesn’t mean it’s true. Renewables are currently not suited to base load but windmills and solar are a lot cheaper than fossil fuel options. Investing in the tech will increase the viability to become the base load. Sticking our heads in the sand and saying that we should stick with non renewable isn’t a great idea. After all, fossil fuels will run out so why not work out an option for post fossil fuel while we can still easily source them

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## phild01

Honda aren't that taken by ev's: https://ww.electrek.co/2019/12/26/ho...-in-ev-demand/ 
He mentions ev development is driven by compliance only.

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## John2b

Takahiro Hachigo needs to get out more often. Compliance is not an issue for Japan yet when I was in Japan in November it was obvious that BEV and PHEV car sales have taken off, at least in Kyoto where it seems they are around 20% of sales. If that market share is not reflected in Honda sales it would be because Honda barely has any BEV and PHEV models to sell.

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## chrisp

I wonder if John2b is worried about the lack of fuel reserves in this country?   
Dont worry John2b, the government is fixing the problem by doing some complex accounting (their modus operandi for dealing with major issues - aka do nothing but words, numbers and platitudes). Apparently, by counting the fuel in transit and buy in to some fuel stocks on the other side of the planet will secure our fuel supply. So, there is no need to worry if there is political unrest or a war in the Middle East, our fossil fuel supplies are assured.   :Smilie:

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## Bros

> So, there is no need to worry if there is political unrest or a war in the Middle East, our fossil fuel supplies are assured.

    I thought I heard recently that the gov have made some deal with the yanks to share some of their stocks.

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## phild01

> I thought I heard recently that the gov have made some deal with the yanks to share some of their stocks.

  I think you heard right but I don't believe the Yanks would likely deplete their own supplies to help us.

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## UseByDate

> I thought I heard recently that the gov have made some deal with the yanks to share some of their stocks.

  The Americans may help us if our oil supplies are restricted but only if it does not impact their oil supplies especially if there is no benefit for them. Can you blame them for not helping a country that knows that it is vulnerable, knows what the solution is, has the capacity to implement the solution but chooses not to.

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## chrisp

> I thought I heard recently that the gov have made some deal with the yanks to share some of their stocks.

  They’re trying. They might get an agreement with the US, but there are doubts that the IEA will accept reserves held in another country (and such a long way away) as legitimate reserves. 
Also, as we all know, what’s proposed is just diddling the numbers and not increasing the actual fuel on hand.

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## johnc

I don't think they will get anywhere with fuel in transit, it is also doubtful that Angus of the dodgy maths ability has the nous to work out the possible from the impossible. It looks like from reading a couple of articles that the Yanks may allow us to purchase fuel and allow it to remain on U.S.A. soil, this may not be a cheap exercise if we are paying demurage or other storage fees.

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## John2b

It's a great arrangement for the US as we pay for the fuel even though we don't have it. Two weeks into a crisis when it becomes apparent that a crisis is actually happening, and with less than two weeks of fuel left in Australia, how long to restore supply from Trump's underground stocks? And what if some minor diplomate has criticised his wife's fashion sense that week and Australia is in the boondocks as far as Trump is concerned? I'll keep my electric car for the time being, and a jerry can or two of diesel in the shed.

----------


## InsaneAsylum

OK so came back from holiday in NZ where my sister in law has a leaf as their second car.
They live approx 20 mins out of town and use the leaf to duck into the shops, run errands etc. 
the good:
-decent build quality, deceivingly spacious car for a hatch back
-had all sorts of cameras and proximity sensors
-loads of torque on tap for overtaking 
the bad:
-111km range fully charged
-took some time getting used to driving
-very touchy brakes, pretty much on/off braking 
-home charge has to be done overnight and took 12 hours so if you're down to zero, the car is pretty useless for the next 12 hours
-fast charge in the city took 30 minutes, so you had to leave the car there and go and do something
 -everything was in japanese, female voice starts screaming at you randomly  :Smilie:  
overall opinion was it's simply not practical unless you can do a full charge in the same time it takes to fill a tank of petrol,
and the range needs to be 300-400kms per charge otherwise you'd need another car for long distance trips.

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## Spottiswoode

So they have dramas with the short range and long charge time or have they adapted to using the vehicle within its parameters? 
Fairly sure I could get 90% of my motoring needs with those limitations and we have a second vehicle for the rest.

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## InsaneAsylum

> So they have dramas with the short range and long charge time or have they adapted to using the vehicle within its parameters? 
> Fairly sure I could get 90% of my motoring needs with those limitations and we have a second vehicle for the rest.

  I'm not sure if the range is standard, their driving style or something that boils down to the car's unknown history in japan. I think from memory it had around 60,000 kms on it. 
They love the car and use it within it's limitations. They have an Isuzu MU-X for everything else. 
I just wanted to give a warts an all summary based on my personal experience. 
My own particular issues with EVs have to do with my property as I have no off street parking and cannot modify the facade of my home including adding any form of driveway due to heritage overlay, therefore I could not perform an overnight charge as it would require running an extension lead out to the street and cannot guarantee a vacant parking spot in front of my house. I also have 1 car for the family and there is limited room for additional cars in the already busy street. I have also never seen a charging station near my home. 
so for me, range needs to be around 400kms, charge time needs to be around 10 minutes and need nearby charge stations to become available before EV's are practical in the real world.

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## John2b

Many cities in Germany created a solution to street-side charging by adding power outlets to light poles when they were upgraded to LED lighting as part of energy efficiency measures.    https://ecomento.de/2014/04/03/elekt...omtarif-video/

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## Bros

Need something better here with all the deadbeats around.

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## SilentButDeadly

> Need something better here with all the deadbeats around.

  Seems like a decent excuse to not for forward with electric vehicles at all.  
I'd be fairly confident that Germany has similar kinds of people too. So if it's an issue...then what?

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## John2b

> So if it's an issue...then what?

  I expect the plugs are locking to prevent unauthorised disengagement. Even a deadbeat is unlikely to tamper with a live cable.

----------


## SilentButDeadly

> I expect the plugs are locking to prevent unauthorised disengagement. Even a deadbeat is unlikely to tamper with a live cable.

  Exactly. But someone can always find a negative instead of the positive.  
Myself, I try to remain actively neutral on the topic.

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## Spottiswoode

https://electrek.co/2020/01/08/tesla...-free-now-app/ 
If electric cars can’t be used all day due to range why are they being bought by taxi companies? Appears that the Tesla 400km range is sufficient for all day travelling in cities.

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## UseByDate

> https://electrek.co/2020/01/08/tesla...-free-now-app/ 
> If electric cars cant be used all day due to range why are they being bought by taxi companies? Appears that the Tesla 400km range is sufficient for all day travelling in cities.

  https://youtu.be/uDpblnu9xUE?t=639

----------


## phild01

Very impressed with my new battery mower ..... _can I put this here_ :Unsure:

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## UseByDate

> Very impressed with my new battery mower ..... _can I put this here_

  Only if it is a ride-on. :Wink:

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## Spottiswoode

Maybe we need a thread split? 
I haven’t used a petrol powered item in the yard for years. Started with a cordless hedger then corded mower and now have a cordless mower, whipper snipper, hedger, pole pruner, chainsaw and blower. After the joys of starting reluctant petrol gear at work there is no way I’m going back.

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## phild01

> Maybe we need a thread split?

  Yep, let's do that. Moved to: https://www.renovateforum.com/f82/ba...-tools-127280/

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## John2b

I finally caught up with my 82 year old friend and his new Tesla Model 3 delivered in December last year. It's quite an impressive vehicle. He does have a little difficulty getting in and out because of getting his dicky knee under the small clearance between seat and wheel, but he is absolutely over the moon with the quality and performance. Below is a photo as requested. Our own electric Leaf is exceeding expectations - total cost of servicing and 'fuel' for 14,000km since May 2019 - $3.95.

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## John2b

Boris Johnson will ban all petrol, diesel and hybrid car sales in the UK by 2035 or earlier, saying 2020 would be a "defining year of climate action" for the planet.  https://londondailyreport.com/petrol...s-ban-brought/

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## Spottiswoode

I’ve been watching the traffic of late. Still not many around, but have seen quite a few Tesla, a Leaf or two a couple of i3’s and one Ionic. Still more common to see big American style pickups though.  
Also in a recent trip up the coast for a holiday I saw a couple of Tesla’s, so they aren’t just a city thing. One was driving into the caravan park we stayed at and there werent any fast chargers in the town there.

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## phild01

> One was driving into the caravan park we stayed at and there weren't any fast chargers in the town there.

  Maybe the attraction was all the caravan solar panels :Biggrin:

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## John2b

> One was driving into the caravan park we stayed at and there werent any fast chargers in the town there.

  All BEVs come with a cable called an EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment) normally with a 15 amp plug, which also happens to be the standard outlet at caravan parks. An overnight charge (say 12 hours) with the EVSE is typically enough for 300 kilometres or so.

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## Spottiswoode

> All BEVs come with a cable called an EVSE (electric vehicle supply equipment) normally with a 15 amp plug, which also happens to be the standard outlet at caravan parks. An overnight charge (say 12 hours) with the EVSE is typically enough for 300 kilometres or so.

  Yeah. I get that. Point being that all the ‘range anxiety’ doesn’t worry some, it’s possible to get around in an electric car, even to out of he way places without special infrastructure.

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## John2b

*Whenever I drive my Tesla my inner hoon comes out* Inside every sober-suited 50-something there is, I have discovered, an 18-year-old hoon just aching to get out. In a week in which it was revealed that Australia’s uptake of electric cars had increased 300 per cent in the past year, matching the surge in the value of Tesla shares since last October, I have finally succumbed to the editor’s request to write on what it’s like to drive and own one.   *UPSIDES*
It’s freaking _fabulous!_ I’ve had my Tesla for nearly 18 months, and though paying for it was enormously expensive, my costs have been not much north of zero since. I didn’t think I was a car person, but it is a thing of art, science, beauty and power all in one. A month ago I was behind a Maserati roaring its engines. Two years ago, I might have been envious. Now I look with wry amusement. My car could blow his doors off _and_ do it silently. Do I _need_ all that power? Obviously not. But that power is one reason it handles so superbly and moves so sleekly. The auto-drive thingammy where it ‘‘reads’’ the road, staying between the white lines at the speed you determine, at a distance you designate from the car in front – and you only have to keep weight on the steering wheel to let it know you are being attentive – is a visitation from the year 2050. To change lanes, I hit the blinker and it determines the speed and position of all cars around me before making the move.
Everything can be controlled by an app. If I were in Perth, Penrith or even Paris and Lisa couldn’t find the keys, I could open the door and power it up from my phone.
It reverse parks itself – you pull up, press the button and it does the rest. And charging is so simple. Every two weeks or so I plug it into the home charger. If I do it on a hot day, the solar panels on my house charge a huge chunk of it and it is done in a little over five hours.   *DOWNSIDES*
There really is an 18-year-old hoon in many of us – and the Tesla awakens it. In the first two weeks of owning one, you have to be careful not to turn into that revhead testing its insane acceleration on the ‘‘Ludicrous +’’ setting. (My wife helped tune my hoon with some full and frank views, clearly expressed, on the virtues of _not_ being one.)
No one who has driven one can think of the Prime Minister’s line last year deriding electric cars – ‘‘Aussies like cars with a bit of grunt’’ – without laughing.
Australia’s regional infrastructure is not yet up to supporting your machine. My trips to Victoria’s Beechworth and Casino in northern NSW became a tad problematic for the lack of Tesla Superchargers in those areas capable of charging the whole thing in an hour, and giving you another 500 kilometre range – and you need forethought to sort it out. But I am still glad not to have to spend a cent or a second in a petrol station for 18 months.
When I bought it, the Tesla mob caught me by offering full servicing for an extra $1000 a year for three years. It seemed like a good deal at the time. But there is no servicing necessary. As there are only a handful more moving parts than the steering wheel and four wheels, it means there is very little that can go wrong, with the notable exception of, and this one really gets my goat ...
Flat tyres. Teslas don’t carry spares. They just guarantee someone will be there in an hour and you will get free towing for 80 kilometres. In December I blew a tyre in Kangaroo Valley while off the tar. After I pressed the button on the electronic console, someone answered in California.
‘‘I’m in Kang ... ’’ I began to say. ‘‘We know exactly where you are,’’ the voice interrupted. ‘‘Someone will be arriving shortly.’’ And someone did. But because I needed to get back to Sydney’s Tesla joint to get their Tesla tyres, more than 80 kilometres away, I paid through the _nose_.
All up, though, it is 10 times better than any other car I’ve driven. I only wish I’d had the brains earlier to realise my experience would be matched by everyone else who got in one, and I’d got in on the share price when it was only a few hundred dollars.   https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-bo...07-p53yof.html

----------


## Bros

Mazda maybe, maybe not but I like the look of it SUV style a big seller on the Australian market.  https://www.caradvice.com.au/824750/...-electric-car/

----------


## Bedford



----------


## John2b

Teslas are semi-amphibious, apparently...  https://youtu.be/FszARiU_jRI

----------


## UseByDate

Only $4,000,000 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nODsrmsuPb8

----------


## Uncle Bob

A bit more about the Cybertruck...

----------


## PhilT2

Fugly but.

----------


## John2b

We had our battery electric car for 1 year now. The all expenses cost for our (then) 3 year old Japanese import Nissan 30kW Leaf, including from lifting the suspension and putting larger t*y*res on to suit our off-road conditions, totalled $24,000. We've had no additional expenses, no breakdowns, no faults, not been to a repair shop and only once paid to recharge (at a cost of $3.95). The range is about 150 kilometres at highway speeds (more if you drive slower irrespective of city or highway driving) which is enough for us to get to Adelaide on the mainland for our quarterly city shopping expedition. We've driven over 15,000 kilometres and saved at least $3,000 over the cost of running a "normal" car. Apart from being fugly, you cannot fault the car, it being smooth, quiet, and easy to drive with heaps of torque at any speed, and you are never in the wrong gear or waiting for a transmission shift. Highly recommended.

----------


## Uncle Bob

Manned Mars rover?   
video here https://twitter.com/i/status/1269649566107725825

----------


## Spottiswoode

> Nissan 30kW Leaf, including from lifting the suspension and putting larger t*y*res on to suit our off-road conditions

   :Shock:  
What did the suspension place say when you rocked uo and wanted and wanted a lift kit for a leaf?

----------


## John2b

I bought the suspension lift components made in Germany online from https://www.spaccer.com/, and took the car and the bits to a garage who fitted the parts for me. Being here on an isolated island the garage didn't bat an eyelid, even though it was probably the first electric car they had in for work.

----------


## Bart1080

...yes but there is already built up fuel consumption of BEV fuel energy (batteries) long before its purchased by the user and hits the road:
mining, refining, production of raw ingredients, manufacturing of the battery, transportation of the batteries, the back end recycling of the batteries along with the burning of petrol to transport all the people supporting the end to end process (mining through to manufacture to scrap recovery of the fuel system). 
yes there are similar steps in ICE vehicles with the exception of scrap recovery as there is none. 
1. How many kWh of "battery" energy has already been consumed before the car hits the road?
2. When comparing the ICE 60 litres/540kWh of energy, to perform a true comparison you need to consider the previous question AND the electricity grid that's burning millions of kWh of coal or gas thats not 100% utilised AND to finally receive a small charge in the battery?  :Smilie:  
...and if you say your off grid solar, the same criteria applies, how much expended energy have those < 20% efficient solar panels used by the time its installed on your house?  I'd wager a bet its takes the life of those panels to get close to energy zero consumption. 
Is it better or worse..who knows!!! 
Would be nice if industry was transparent with the true end to end comparison between the 2

----------


## John2b

The purchase price of solar panels and BEV cars includes all of the embedded energy costs, minus a small subsidy component which is tiny compared to the guvmint subsidies, direct and indirect, of fossil energy production. If there is so much expensive energy embedded in solar panels and BEV electric cars then how could they possibly be sold so inexpensively that over a few years of ownership the owner is able to save money compared to using conventional energy sources?

----------


## Spottiswoode

> 1. How many kWh of "battery" energy has already been consumed before the car hits the road?
> 2. When comparing the ICE 60 litres/540kWh of energy, to perform a true comparison you need to consider the previous question AND the electricity grid that's burning millions of kWh of coal or gas thats not 100% utilised AND to finally receive a small charge in the battery?

  It applies to ICE cars as well. And while it is less than for a BEV the ongoing energy cost of an ICE vehicle exceeds the energy cost of a BEV once manufactured. The efficiency of a coal powered station delivering electricity to a BEV is similar to the energy efficiency of an ICE once the fuel is in the tank when you take into account the extraction, refining and distribution of said fuel ICE vehicles fall behind. 
if you have to ask about the energy debt of solar panels and their payback time, go and find a reputable resource which describes it. It is less than the life of the panel. Wind turbines are similar, generating significantly more than their construction energy during their lifetime.

----------


## John2b

> if you have to ask about the energy debt of solar panels and their payback time...

  Currently it's a bit over twelve months, or a bit over 5% of the panels nominal output over 20 years, although a properly made PV panel has an indefinite life*. 
*I have 24 Sharp PV panels well over ten years old that still exceed the original power output specification when new. These panels were removed from old domestic solar systems originally installed in the early/mid 2000s, not because they weren't working, but because the owners were installing much larger systems. These secondhand panels were a very cheap means to build an array to peak the winter output of our off-grid PV system for charging the car.

----------


## Bart1080

Thanks John & Spott.  Still not convinced.  
When referring to payback, its not the $$ payback, its the fossil energy payback already used in the supply line to manufacture the "green" power plant (solar panel or car battery) and the ongoing use of fossil fuel to charge the battery and recycle at end of life to calculate if its truly "green". 
I've yet to see an honest apples to apples comparison taking into consideration birth to grave and all the fossil fuels used to create and use the green energy power plant that's not biased.  ...Yes its complex. 
Anyway I will get a BEV but purely as a $ saving purchase and when they can perform the same work I do with my ICE today.  
My ICE cars are work horses that I run into the ground (10 to 25 years), cost me between 1k to 2k per year when looking at the total purchase, depreciation running/maint and scrap costs.  I doubt BEV could "currently" compete with both the annual cost or be the work horse's my ICE cars are particularly when including the replacement of the batteries at some point in their life cycle.  Looking forward to the day when that happens...I'II be on board. 
Getting Solar this year only for $$ saved reasons.

----------


## Marc

Us, India Japan and Australia form an alliance to produce electric car batteries.  https://youtu.be/h9b5d1a3coM

----------


## YoungBolt

Waste of time and money. China make the best batteries and even those are average at best for vehicles. 
And let's not even talk about the cost to the environment to make them. 
Companies and countries investing in battery tech are mostly just virtue signalling. The economics dont add up. It's a dud fad, been around since before the invention of the combustion engine car.

----------


## Marc

Agreed ... for now you are right, for now.
But I welcome the universal repudiation of the communist chinese party and the efforts to exposed them for what they are.
There is almost no difference between nazi germany and the communist china of today.

----------


## YoungBolt

I'd argue that the China is in a better position that germany was in the 1930s because back them germany had little hold over the world. China owns a huge part of western manufacturing and can ruin economics swiftly. The next war won't be fought with guns, it'll be via cyber + biological + economic weapons. You just dont need guns anymore to cripple a country. China has everything in it's power to take down the world, I think the only thing holding them back is the need for them to rely, in part, on the global economy to give them the resources they need to keep their 1.5 billion people alive.  
One thing with electric cars that no one talks about is that we're plowing heaps of power and money into a country like China. When we made cars, we also could make tools & machines and many of the things that allowed australia to exist without relying on the world, now that this is all gone, we're at the mercy of the world who can make or break us. At least we can still get cars from places outside of china, but if it all shifts to electric cars of which all battery tech comes from China, we will need to bow to red jacket psychopath Winne the Pooh XiXi Ping to be able to move our goods or travel across our own damn country.  
Putting aside the flawed maths around it's cost to buy, run & service, put aside the false economy electric vehicles in terms of it's environmental impact from production, charging during it's life and its eventual disposal and also it's poor functionality in daily use, the other part of the fad that annoys me is the EV fanboi's; they are the equivalent of Jehovah's witnesses. They're so hellbent on shoving down your throat how wonderful electric cars are and how they will change the world. Half the reason I want electric cars to fail is because I just want those deluded fools to fade into obscurity.

----------


## Marc

> Putting aside the flawed maths around it's cost to buy, run & service, put aside the false economy electric vehicles in terms of it's environmental impact from production, charging during it's life and its eventual disposal and also it's poor functionality in daily use, the other part of the fad that annoys me is the EV fanboi's; they are the equivalent of Jehovah's witnesses. They're so hellbent on shoving down your throat how wonderful electric cars are and how they will change the world. Half the reason I want electric cars to fail is because I just want those deluded fools to fade into obscurity.

  Not arguing that point for a minute. You probably find those words printed by me in the above 200 post ... well perhaps I did not say deluded fools yet ... or did I?   :Smilie:  
As far as your trepidation about china's perceived might, you will see soon enough that it is mostly balloony.

----------


## Uncle Bob

> The next war won't be fought with guns, it'll be via 
> cyber 
> + biological 
> + economic weapons.

  So far they've got 3 from 3.

----------


## John2b

> So far they've got 3 from 3.

  and that's without even having a war...

----------


## fredgassit

"you will see soon enough that it is mostly balloony." 
Could you please elaborate.

----------


## YoungBolt

> and that's without even having a war...

  I think it'll come soon. Winne the pooh / XiXi Ping is hardly keen to hear any negative feedback on his country's recent handling of a world crippling virus... 
He's been building heaps of military bases in the South China sea that no one can be bothered to do anything about. Hitler did the same thing with building military bases in neighbouring countries (i.e. Poland) and no one did anything as they were focused on dealing with the great depression and had war fatigue from WW1. So when Hitler made the first strike no one was prepared or able to take him down due to the secret power he had already built and the complete disarray that other countries were in.   
If we're smart, we should start preparations to fortify our country against having to rely on china for anything. One of our best defences in WW2 was that we weren't heavily reliant on international trade to survive and could make our own weapons, goods & foods. We can still make our own foods, but many of our goods are from overseas. Australia faired quite well economically in WW2 compared to many other countries.

----------


## fredgassit

All too true. 
But it's the other export of China we should be concerned about -- the great worldwide Chinese diaspora of the past five or so years (the "silent invasion"). No need to conquer or invade a country when it's already a fait accompli (with apologies to any Chinese-Australians).

----------


## YoungBolt

> All too true. 
> But it's the other export of China we should be concerned about -- the great worldwide Chinese diaspora of the past five or so years (the "silent invasion"). No need to conquer or invade a country when it's already a fait accompli (with apologies to any Chinese-Australians).

  Australian intelligence quotes that Australia has around 600 idle chinese spies in this country. Most of them are students or are working and relay information back to china about how we live & work. It's not the typical 1950s cold waresque super sleuth spies but just everyday people who are obligated to report to the CCP.   
There are suspicions that most of the chinese digital gear we use is also able to feedback information to the CCP. Most of the CCV for the parliamentary buildings all come from China!! That tictac tok app is also rumoured to be able to spy on its users. 
Western people are often very naive in thinking that every government and culture is like theirs in that they have all have shared goal to make a better place. But this is often not true. Many governments have a secret agenda.  
NB: I make no inference about individuals, but governments.

----------


## John2b

It's pretty naive to think that the Chinese are doing something unique. Western governments have embedded 'back doors' in swathes of otherwise legitimate computer network equipment, and Facebook was used as a vehicle to rig the last US election.

----------


## PhilT2

> Australian intelligence quotes that Australia has around 600 idle chinese spies in this country. Most of them are students or are working and relay information back to china about how we live & work. It's not the typical 1950s cold waresque super sleuth spies but just everyday people who are obligated to report to the CCP.   
> There are suspicions that most of the chinese digital gear we use is also able to feedback information to the CCP. Most of the CCV for the parliamentary buildings all come from China!! That tictac tok app is also rumoured to be able to spy on its users. 
> Western people are often very naive in thinking that every government and culture is like theirs in that they have all have shared goal to make a better place. But this is often not true. Many governments have a secret agenda.  
> NB: I make no inference about individuals, but governments.

  My tinfoil hat has a little adjuster at the back. When it starts to feel a bit snug I back it off a fraction.

----------


## Marc

The graphene battery is here. Will it make a difference to renewables and electric cars or is it just the next fad?  https://youtu.be/dnE1nO6o-do

----------


## Bedford

> The South Australian Government plans to introduce a road user charge for electric vehicles in a national first.

  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-...harge/12869302

----------


## HugeJaXXon

> I'd argue that the China is in a better position that germany was in the 1930s because back them germany had little hold over the world. China owns a huge part of western manufacturing and can ruin economics swiftly. The next war won't be fought with guns, it'll be via cyber + biological + economic weapons. You just dont need guns anymore to cripple a country. China has everything in it's power to take down the world, I think the only thing holding them back is the need for them to rely, in part, on the global economy to give them the resources they need to keep their 1.5 billion people alive.  
> One thing with electric cars that no one talks about is that we're plowing heaps of power and money into a country like China. When we made cars, we also could make tools & machines and many of the things that allowed australia to exist without relying on the world, now that this is all gone, we're at the mercy of the world who can make or break us. At least we can still get cars from places outside of china, but if it all shifts to electric cars of which all battery tech comes from China, we will need to bow to red jacket psychopath Winne the Pooh XiXi Ping to be able to move our goods or travel across our own damn country.  
> Putting aside the flawed maths around it's cost to buy, run & service, put aside the false economy electric vehicles in terms of it's environmental impact from production, charging during it's life and its eventual disposal and also it's poor functionality in daily use, the other part of the fad that annoys me is the EV fanboi's; they are the equivalent of Jehovah's witnesses. They're so hellbent on shoving down your throat how wonderful electric cars are and how they will change the world. Half the reason I want electric cars to fail is because I just want those deluded fools to fade into obscurity.

  LG Chem is Korean, Panasonic is Japanese - love the sweeping generalist statements.  _"My tinfoil hat has a little adjuster at the back. When it starts to feel a bit snug I back it off a fraction."  _ Don't forget the tinfoil blinkers, they're adjustable too  :Biggrin:

----------


## r3nov8or

Just saw this... 
Jaguar to become all-EV brand from 2025 https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...m-2025-128560/ 
Big move. More to come?

----------


## Uncle Bob

> J 
> Big move. More to come?

  Tip of the iceberg. If they're don't they won't exist in a decade.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Tip of the iceberg. If they're don't they won't exist in a decade.

  I don't think many other brands will commit to make this happen within 4-5 years. Lots of EV options, yes, but not fully / only EV in this timeframe

----------


## phild01

GM plans are 2035 full phase out. Hope battery technology takes a quantum leap.

----------


## r3nov8or

> .... Hope battery technology takes a quantum leap.

  
Maybe it's above somewhere... As a usually second hand car buyer, and with several young adults in the home that will probably choose to be the same, my main question is how long do the batteries last (10, 15 years of average Klms?) and what value remains of a vehicle that needs, say, $10,000 (guessing) worth of new batteries to be viable transport? Will the original batteries be available? Etc

----------


## John2b

> I don't think many other brands will commit to make this happen within 4-5 years. Lots of EV options, yes, but not fully / only EV in this timeframe

   Every single one of the world's 10 or so largest vehicle manufacturers has publicly stated that they will not develop new platforms for ICE vehicles, and that all current development is based on BEV platforms. It takes time (maybe ~7 years or so) for the R&D focus to roll through to actual production, but the 'no more ICE platforms' strategy is because of feedback from people who own BEV cars saying they will never buy an ICE car again, not from any 'BEVs will save the planet' mantra. Australia really is the world's technological backwater thanks to our luddite neoliberal leadership.

----------


## phild01

> Australia really is the world's technological backwater thanks to our luddite neoliberal leadership.

  Due to the isolation which is somewhat unique to Australia, I think your criticism is misplaced. 
 But I would really like to have an EV that could tow long distances and not be cost prohibitive. All that depends on battery technology.

----------


## Bros

With the purchase price it will take some time to be accepted in Australia. A friend of mine who only does about 30klm per day as he in in his 80's and doesnt like driving said he would buy a electric vehicle but the costs didn't stack up so he bought a small Hyundai.

----------


## John2b

> GM plans are 2035 full phase out. Hope battery technology takes a quantum leap.

   Starter batteries last 3-5 years typically. Hopefully they will take a quantum leap as well. Oh, and GM is so late to the party it's almost over! 
I've driven an electric car for two years now, and not only is it a better car to own, drive and to be in, it hasn't cost a cent in maintenance, plus I have saved >$5,000 in fuel costs. YMMV LOL!!!

----------


## phild01

> I've driven an electric car for two years now, and not only is it a better car to own, drive and to be in, it hasn't cost a cent in maintenance, plus I have saved >$5,000 in fuel costs. YMMV LOL!!!

  John, I believe we are all very aware of that situation you have, which is great for you. And I accept how good they must be to drive but comment for mainstream people would be worthwhile.

----------


## John2b

> Due to the isolation which is somewhat unique to Australia, I think your criticism is misplaced. 
>  But I would really like to have an EV that could tow long distances and not be cost prohibitive. All that depends on battery technology.

  Are you going to argue that New Zealand is less isolated than Australia? I think your "Australia is unique" argument is fanciful. And sure, any vehicle is not going to do everything. I'd like to see you drive a Yaris to Birdsville and back with an off-road van in tow. Personally, I'd leave my fantastic Nissan Leaf at home for that trip and take the 4WD.

----------


## John2b

> John, I believe we are all very aware of that situation you have, which is great for you. And I accept how good they must be to drive but comment for mainstream people would be worthwhile.

   I am commenting for "mainstream people"! Car manufacturers are moving to BEV platforms because of customer feedback! I don't think they are doing it to sacrifice market share and profit - doh! If that isn't obvious, it might be because you are in Australia - LOL! For the rest of the world the train has already departed...

----------


## phild01

> Are you going to argue that New Zealand is less isolated than Australia? I think your "Australia is unique" argument is fanciful. And sure, any vehicle is not going to do everything. I'd like to see you drive a Yaris to Birdsville and back with an off-road van in tow. Personally, I'd leave my fantastic Nissan Leaf at home for that trip and take the 4WD.

  When I say isolation I mean those long lonely sections to all parts of Australia. And where will you get that 4WD diesel thing when manufacturers stop making them.

----------


## John2b

> When I say isolation I mean those long lonely sections to all parts of Australia. And where will you get that 4WD diesel thing when manufacturers stop making them.

  I am not planning to to change my 4WD diesel thing anytime soon. It was made in 1993, just before common rail became ubiquitous, so it's pretty new anyway - only 300,000k. My diesel 4WD will run on practically anything including old fish & chip oil or home grown canola oil, though that probably wouldn't help me cross the continent - LOL. I'd rather stay home these days as I find the 'wilderness' far, far too crowded, full of $100k machines loaded with $100k of fancy accessories and $0 of common sense.

----------


## phild01

But John, I know you will be fine and admire your tenacity to make it work for yourself. But what about all those other people who want to drag their fun things all around the remote areas of Australia and can only dish out for current offerings, what will they be able to buy if everything happened as quickly as you think it can happen.

----------


## phild01

From June 2019 article - but hopefully battery improvements will avoid scenes like this for all those who need to tow:    It looked like you needed to spend more than $150,000 if you wanted an electric vehicle that tows! So far, the Tesla Model X is the only full electric available in Australia that actually has any ‘rated towing capacity’. Australia is a nation that enjoys the outdoors and many drivers couldn’t bear not to be able to tow a boat, box trailer, jet ski, bikes or a caravan. 
Towing a caravan with an electric car - can it be done? (thedriven.io)

----------


## John2b

It's coming, backed by the Ford Motor Company and Amazon. https://rivian.com

----------


## phild01

> It's coming, backed by the Ford Motor Company and Amazon. https://rivian.com

  Price wise still out of reach and ugly as, give it another 10 years.

----------


## Bros

> I accept how good they must be to drive but comment for mainstream people would be worthwhile.

  And bought one in Australia

----------


## John2b

It's not 10 years away. Right now if vehicle manufacturers were making the same quantity of BEVs as they make of ICEs, BEVs would be significantly cheaper than their ICE equivalents. The best industry estimates are that at an annual volume of 1 million vehicles a BEV model is 20% cheaper to make than it's equivalent ICE model. That's on todays costs, not a future projection. Luddite countries like Australia will be the last to transition.

----------


## John2b

> And bought one in Australia

  When I bought my Leaf at a Japanese auction in September 2018 there were no electric vehicles suitable for my application available new in Australia, and there were only two Nissan Leaf models listed on the carsales.com website in the few months prior, one in Perth and one in Brisbane, both small battery and high kilometres which ruled them out. The situation is entirely different now.  https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/nissan/leaf/

----------


## Bros

> When I bought my Leaf at a Japanese auction in September 2018 there were no electric vehicles suitable for my application available new in Australia,

  Grey import then. Grey imports have had a chequered history in the past whereas parts were not available in Australia and no one wanted to have anything to do with you.

----------


## phild01

> The best industry estimates are that at an annual volume of 1 million vehicles a BEV model is 20% cheaper to make than it's equivalent ICE model. That's on todays costs, not a future projection.

  Hope it's true as I am not sure my old car will last to that day.  

> The situation is entirely different now.  https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/nissan/leaf/

  I can buy 3 similar brand new small cars for the price of those. Clearly you just want the govt to make ICE illegal _(along with the other type of ice)_.

----------


## Bedford

> The situation is entirely different now.  https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/nissan/leaf/

  Why are there so many low kilometer Leafs dumped on the market?

----------


## r3nov8or

> Why are there so many low kilometer Leafs dumped on the market?

  Because they are Leafs?   :Biggrin:

----------


## METRIX

> Why are there so many low kilometer Leafs dumped on the market?

  All the low km ones are dealer demo cars, it shows at the bottom of the advert.

----------


## METRIX

> Australian intelligence quotes that Australia has around 600 idle chinese spies in this country. Most of them are students or are working and relay information back to china about how we live & work.

  That's nothing special, every country in the world has spies in them from every other country, this is not unique to Australia.

----------


## METRIX

> If we're smart, we should start preparations to fortify our country against having to rely on china for anything. One of our best defences in WW2 was that we weren't heavily reliant on international trade to survive and could make our own weapons, goods & foods. We can still make our own foods, but many of our goods are from overseas. Australia faired quite well economically in WW2 compared to many other countries.

  Just a few things they are doing in the background  https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/au...hnology-niche/  https://www.canberratimes.com.au/sto...ence-exploits/

----------


## Bedford

> All the low km ones are dealer demo cars, it shows at the bottom of the advert.

  Yes a few of them but not all.

----------


## Marc

> It's coming, backed by the Ford Motor Company and Amazon. https://rivian.com

  What's in the box in tow? The batteries?  :Wink:

----------


## phild01

Actually Marc, you may be right because battery drive vans is something I have heard about.  
yes...World-first hybrid drive caravan revealed - caravancampingsales.com.au 
will be hugely expensive though! And a waste of battery considering how often most vans are on the road.

----------


## METRIX

> Actually Marc, you may be right because battery drive vans is something I have heard about.  
> yes...World-first hybrid drive caravan revealed - caravancampingsales.com.au 
> will be hugely expensive though! And a waste of battery considering how often most vans are on the road.

  Not really, if they implement technology correctly the van could be connected to your house for the 99.9% of time it doesent get used, so could act as your home battery.  
Plus be used for the grid when it's full and your not drawing enough power at home and the sun is shining on your solar panels, I know there are implementations already for the batteries to supply peak demand to the grid as it can save new power stations being built.   
It's a whole new way of thinking about this technology

----------


## John2b

> What's in the box in tow? The batteries?

  Actually the trailer and load in the picture was a 5 tonne weight for testing the towing capabilities of the Rivian uphill during extreme heat in Arizona. 
Edit: I wonder why Dutton is being honoured with a rock sculpture in Arizona?

----------


## Marc

I see ... a bit like electric assisted push bikes. Not a bad idea ... providing they don't push you off the road in a bend. (I hate caravans ... give me a motorhome anyday)  
Electric cars are still an expensive experiment. We need a better and cheaper battery. By the way ... did you hear about the communal batteries for solar home systems? The idea is a large battery shared by a group of homes. No idea how the wireing and power allocation would work without a meter, and once there is a meter in there the bill will follow I suppose (?) 
Back to electric macho van ... i wonder if it is mandatory to make them that ugly?

----------


## John2b

There are now bidirectional V2G (vehicle to grid) fast chargers for homes. The fast charging plug on BEVs connects directly to the battery pack so it is bidirectional. The home wall charger manages import / export, so the battery can be used just like a home battery, buying cheap power overnight and selling when the price is high during the day, or store it when the sun is shining and export it when it is not.  https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advi...-grid-charging

----------


## phild01

[QUOTE=METRIX;1122811]Not really, if they implement technology correctly the van could be connected to your house for the 99.9% of time it doesent get used, so could act as your home battery.  
/QUOTE]
Yes,I considered that as well. I have rooftop home solar but won't consider backup batteries due the current cost of it. One day...yes.

----------


## Marc

> There are now bidirectional V2G (vehicle to grid) fast chargers for homes. The fast charging plug on BEVs connects directly to the battery pack so it is bidirectional. The home wall charger manages import / export, so the battery can be used just like a home battery, buying cheap power overnight and selling when the price is high during the day, or store it when the sun is shining and export it when it is not.  https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advi...-grid-charging

  Yes, good idea ... if you have 5 electric cars it will work like a charm  :Smilie:  ... I see that political correctness does not extend to advertising nice people from the gentle sex handling equipment to show how easy it is ... See even I can do it ...  :Rofl5:  
Phil, check communal batteries. Ausgrid. https://www.ausgrid.com.au/In-your-c...ty-battery-FAQ

----------


## John2b

> Electric cars are still an expensive experiment. We need a better and cheaper battery. By the way ... did you hear about the communal batteries for solar home systems? The idea is a large battery shared by a group of homes. No idea how the wireing and power allocation would work without a meter, and once there is a meter in there the bill will follow I suppose (?) 
> Back to electric macho van ... i wonder if it is mandatory to make them that ugly?

  The battery, electric motor and transmission in a BEV is already cheaper to produce then the fuel delivery system, engine and transmission in a equivalent ICE vehicle. The only reason BEVs still cost more is sales volumes are much smaller. I bought our electric car not for it's looks but to save money, which it has done in spades. I'm considering buying another for the same reason, though this time in Australia. 
I agree about the ugliness; I think our Leaf is bog ugly. But style isn't static. BMW's designer Chris Bangle was lampooned for the bootline on the 2001 7 series, yet within a few years many other luxury vehicle makers had copied it. 
Sometimes we should be pleased that style moves on. I had the hairstyle bottom row second from left in the 70s:    *Choose Your Retro Haircut! Hair Style Selections from the 1970s*

----------


## phild01

> Phil, check communal batteries. Ausgrid. https://www.ausgrid.com.au/In-your-c...ty-battery-FAQ

  Yes saw that a few nights back in the news....ugly green eyesores, wouldn't want one next to my house. 
A few weeks ago I saw how the electrical authorities can place these huge green boxes so close to your house prohibiting  any future extension to your house closer to them. No prior notice and devaluing your property. Their rule of thumb is an arbitrary distance to a house not the property boundary because they are a fire risk- scumbags.

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## Marc

Yes, raping private property and the environment for supposed "common good" is the catch cry of most things to do with solar. Go figure. 
John, second from the left top row is me in the seventies, ha ha, gave up the beard quick smart when the local police made the association between beards and terrorism.
That cube with wheels towing another cube is ugly from any point of view, even for it's mother. 
What is that stuff in front of the truck? Hair? 
For ugliness you can't beat my Chevrolet 1961 pick up truck. Mine was yellow to add insult to injury  :Rofl5:

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## John2b

> What is that stuff in front of the truck? Hair?

   I suspect that the stuff is an attempt at camouflage. This is often done when road testing pre-release models.    https://www.autospies.com/news/SPIED...nd-MORE-88782/

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## John2b

You want ugly? I found it. 
Canadian EV manufacturer Electrameccanica recently announced a decision on the location of its first US-based assembly facility. The chosen location will also be the new home to the manufacturer’s engineering technical center. The facility will produce the three-wheeled SOLO EV, which has begun test drives for early adopters in the US.  Attachment 128487  https://electrek.co/2021/02/16/elect...ent-to-follow/

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## Marc

Solo ... like farts only the owner likes it  :Rofl5:

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## r3nov8or

> You want ugly? I found it. 
> Canadian EV manufacturer Electrameccanica recently announced a decision on the location of its first US-based assembly facility. The chosen location will also be the new home to the manufacturer’s engineering technical center. The facility will produce the three-wheeled SOLO EV, which has begun test drives for early adopters in the US.  Attachment 128487  https://electrek.co/2021/02/16/elect...ent-to-follow/

  
Reminds me of one of the Muppets. Beaker?  :Biggrin:

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## METRIX

[QUOTE=phild01;1122816]  

> Not really, if they implement technology correctly the van could be connected to your house for the 99.9% of time it doesent get used, so could act as your home battery.  
> /QUOTE]
> Yes,I considered that as well. I have rooftop home solar but won't consider backup batteries due the current cost of it. One day...yes.

  They are getting cheaper, was watching a documentary on some new technology that they say is finally going to increase the current density of batteries by two or more times and it's meant to be cheaper to produce.
Lab results have been very pleasing, just waiting to see if they can get it to market like all the other hopefuls out there.

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## METRIX

> You want ugly? I found it. 
> Canadian EV manufacturer Electrameccanica recently announced a decision on the location of its first US-based assembly facility. The chosen location will also be the new home to the manufacturer’s engineering technical center. The facility will produce the three-wheeled SOLO EV, which has begun test drives for early adopters in the US.  Attachment 128487  https://electrek.co/2021/02/16/elect...ent-to-follow/

  The typical 250lb American wouldn't even fit in it, so it's a failure from the start, maybe sell it in Asia or India would probably do well.

----------


## Whitey66

> Just saw this... 
> Jaguar to become all-EV brand from 2025 https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...m-2025-128560/ 
> Big move. More to come?

  Good on Jaguar, they have finally come up with a solution to stop their cars from leaking oil.   :2thumbsup:

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## John2b

> Good on Jaguar, they have finally come up with a solution to stop their cars from leaking oil.

   Let's just hope they don't use Lucas electrics or the Jag owner will still need two vehicles - one to drive while the other is being repaired. You know why the British drink warm beer? Lucas fridges!

----------


## John2b

The BEV uglies keep coming... 
California’s Alpha Motor Corporation's high-speed off-road crossover SUV (or CUV):    https://insideevs.com/news/488468/al...classic-style/

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## r3nov8or

> Maybe it's above somewhere... As a usually second hand car buyer, and with several young adults in the home that will probably choose to be the same, my main question is how long do the batteries last (10, 15 years of average Klms?) and what value remains of a vehicle that needs, say, $10,000 (guessing) worth of new batteries to be viable transport? Will the original batteries be available? Etc

  Any solid info on battery longevity (years, full charges, kilometres, whatever)? Will any BEV be worth more than wrecking value when the batteries expire?

----------


## John2b

> Any solid info on battery longevity (years, full charges, kilometres, whatever)? Will any BEV be worth more than wrecking value when the batteries expire?

  Most (all?) manufacturers are offering 6-8 year or 100,000-120,000km warranties on batteries, where if the range falls below, say, 80% they are replacing batteries for free - not pro-rata. Like lead batteries, catalytic converters or copper radiators, the expired lithium batteries are worth good money for their metal content. If you buy a replacement battery from Nissan for a Leaf, the trade-in value of the old lithium battery is quite significant. 
The Leaf battery is quite safely positioned and usually isn't damaged in a crash. Written off vehicles are a primary source for replacement or upgrade traction batteries helped by the fact that all Leaf's 24, 30, 40 and 62kWh battery packs are all physically interchangeable from the first model in 2011 to the current model. 
New Zealand and Europe are hotbeds for aftermarket repairs and tuning of BEVs. I bought a throttle re-mapper from a Polish EV tuning company that gives me about 10% extra range. I got a suspension lift for the Leaf from a German company. A company in Estonia does a lot of reprogramming of navigation systems and maps for grey imports usually via SD card, several companies in New Zealand make replacement battery packs and upgrades for the Leaf, several US companies make towbars and other accessories and a Dutch company does 10 and 20kW range extender battery packs that sit in the bottom of the boot, which is quite deep thanks to the absence of a petrol tank. There are quite extensive specialist LEAF aftermarket companies in the USA and UK. Unfortunately Australia has been sleeping at the wheel when it comes to BEVs.

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## Moondog55

My biggest worry about using a pure EV rather than a smart hybrid has been the limited range.
For back country touring in Australia the prevailing advice for decades has been the need to a minimum range of a 1000 kilometres, which is easily reached in most vehicles with a couple or three  jerrycans in addition to a full tank of fuel.
The realisation that a small trailer or caravan can be used as a spare battery pack really opened my mind up to possibilities.
Up until that recent post I'd simply not thought about two-way current flow in an EV + trailer combination.
Add in the advances in solar generated power and high capacity battery banks as stand alone power centres things are going to be very different in a decade [ or maybe a lot longer if we keep the current crop of dinosaurs in parliament in power] although I doubt Cecile or I will be in the market for a new large vehicle in a decade we may well need a small smart car for use in the local setting

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## Bart1080

> A few weeks ago I saw how the electrical authorities can place these huge green boxes so close to your house prohibiting  any future extension to your house closer to them. No prior notice and devaluing your property. Their rule of thumb is an arbitrary distance to a house not the property boundary because they are a fire risk- scumbags.

  Happy to be corrected through provision of evidance  :Smilie:  but I doubt that they would be installing it in someones front yard/private property unless they already had an existing easement....which I doubt again when you look at the size of the footprint and further doubt again if it didnt have the home owners consent given the risk of large negative feedback in the media.....at least thats my experience here in good old lock down Vic!!! 
If you look at the Ausgrid install as an example. 1min 32sec mark clearly shows the battery installed next the the substation supplying power to the said neighborhood.  
Both are clearly on public land, not private property.  If the latter occured somewhere, then I'd guess there was a negotiation with the private land owner and payment exchanged for the privilege.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSDq...ature=youtu.be

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## UseByDate

> Let's just hope they don't use Lucas electrics or the Jag owner will still need two vehicles - one to drive while the other is being repaired. You know why the British drink warm beer? Lucas fridges!

  LOL.
 “Serve authentic Stouts as warm as 55 degrees Fahrenheit (13 degrees Celsius), which is _British cellar temperature.” 
"_The palate is numbed to the point that it can’t discern many of the  beer’s flavor nuances. (So this explains why some beers are best served  just above the freezing mark!) Why bother drinking a beer if you can’t  taste it? May as well have a Slurpee."  https://www.dummies.com/food-drink/d...t-temperature/

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## UseByDate

> Due to the isolation which is somewhat unique to Australia, I think your criticism is misplaced. 
>  But I would really like to have an EV that could tow long distances and not be cost prohibitive. All that depends on battery technology.

  Australia needs more confidence as a nation. Australia is not isolated. The rest of the world is isolated.  :Wink:  https://wordhistories.net/2020/06/03...nent-isolated/

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## Bedford

> Yes saw that a few nights back in the news....ugly green eyesores, wouldn't want one next to my house. 
> A few weeks ago I saw how the electrical authorities can place these huge green boxes so close to your house prohibiting  any future extension to your house closer to them. No prior notice and devaluing your property. Their rule of thumb is an arbitrary distance to a house not the property boundary because they are a fire risk- scumbags.

  Was this it, check out the video.  *Grandmother fears home could 'go up in smoke' because of electrical transformer*   https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-a...2-603520ebdd83   

> "It's under two metres from our home, which is extremely close  proximity, our house comprises of timber as you can see and it is  basically combustible material and would go up in smoke," she said.

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## phild01

> Happy to be corrected through provision of evidance  but I doubt that they would be installing it in someones front yard/private property unless they already had an existing easement....which I doubt again when you look at the size of the footprint and further doubt again if it didnt have the home owners consent given the risk of large negative feedback in the media.....at least thats my experience here in good old lock down Vic!!! 
> If you look at the Ausgrid install as an example. 1min 32sec mark clearly shows the battery installed next the the substation supplying power to the said neighborhood.  
> Both are clearly on public land, not private property.  If the latter occured somewhere, then I'd guess there was a negotiation with the private land owner and payment exchanged for the privilege.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSDq...ature=youtu.be

  Not sure i was clear but I saw this reported on TV. It doesn't get installed on your private land but next to it. What they did was measured the minimum esement from the house not the boundary of the property. That means that the house is prohibited of ever being extended closer to the installation. 
This is what I might have seen but they say it was a transformer which looks similar at a quick glance: Aussie grandmother fears home could 'go up in smoke' because of electrical transformer metres from house (nine.com.au)

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## r3nov8or

> Most (all?) manufacturers are offering 6-8 year or 100,000-120,000km warranties on batteries, where if the range falls below, say, 80% they are replacing batteries for free - not pro-rata....

  This provides some indication, of the unlikelihood of the need to replace a Tesla battery due to klms/wear and tear, and the likely cost of replacement, if indeed they are still a viable second-hand proposition at "300,000-500,000 miles"   https://evannex.com/pages/the-cost-o...-tesla-battery

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## phild01

> Australia needs more confidence as a nation. Australia is not isolated. The rest of the world is isolated.  https://wordhistories.net/2020/06/03...nent-isolated/

  Talking about long distances between towns and cities. see#1184

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## r3nov8or

> Not sure i was clear but I saw this reported on TV. It doesn't get installed on your private land but next to it. What they did was measured the minimum esement from the house not the boundary of the property. That means that the house is prohibited of ever being extended closer to the installation. 
> This is what I might have seen but they say it was a transformer which looks similar at a quick glance: Aussie grandmother fears home could 'go up in smoke' because of electrical transformer metres from house (nine.com.au)

  So she built a pergola extension after the transformer and pad was designed... 
I wouldn't be too surprised if the developer offered her a decent sum to sell her place, but she refused (fair enough) and the developer has taken the opportunity to maximise his/her investment by requesting the utilities be tucked away from the main development area. "Over near her place, maybe?". Nah, that'd never happen 
It was two months ago - I wonder what's happened since...?

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## phild01

> So she built a pergola extension after the transformer and pad was designed...

  I think more the point is that the Authority should not have the power to interfere with a person's right to use their land as they please in such a trivial way.

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## Bart1080

Someones stuffed up...who we will never know.  In hind sight she should have sent a written notification of her intention to build rather than verbally.
Be interesting to see what happens. Unless she has a good case I'd bet probably nothing as it would be upwards of $100,000 to move it.  In Aus and the world, there are thousands of these built as close or closer..including inside buildings

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## Bart1080

> This provides some indication, of the unlikelihood of the need to replace a Tesla battery due to klms/wear and tear, and the likely cost of replacement, if indeed they are still a viable second-hand proposition at "300,000-500,000 miles"

  Will be interesting to see what actually occurs with longevity of the EV cars given the drive gears for Tesla at least are designed to last 1,000,000 miles.
Today's BV cars are basically are a disposable item after 200,000km particularly the European stuff - cost of repairs far outweigh the value of the car and too many mechanical items start to fail.  Hopefully batteries will get cheaper or last longer but at $10k it starts to look like a good $ proposition.

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## UseByDate

> Talking about long distances between towns and cities. see#1184

  . :Doh:

----------


## David.Elliott

A quick scan of this article and some commentors seems to show quite a different Nissan attitude here in OZ to Leaf battery replacement.  https://thecarguy.com.au/nissan-leaf-battery/

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## Bart1080

...so Grey Imports its $33k....very different to $10k.
If they only have 60% of their rated capacity after say 5 years...almost half the distance your able to travel and needs replacing = $6,600 per year.  I'd spend 2,000 in fuel a year.
If it were 10k even at every 5 years it would be viable but not an improvement on my current situation.

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## phild01

> If they only have 60% of their rated capacity after say 5 years...almost half the distance your able to travel and needs replacing = $6,600 per year. I'd spend 2,000 in fuel a year.
> If it were 10k even at every 5 years it would be viable but not an improvement on my current situation.

  Yep, current batteries as good as they might be are economically crap and why I maintain batteries need a quantum leap in Technology, read plenty of promises of this but not much seems to eventuate.

----------


## John2b

> A quick scan of this article and some commentors seems to show quite a different Nissan attitude here in OZ to Leaf battery replacement.

  I belong to a couple of Nissan Leaf owner forums. Based on the experiences reported on these to forums I can only assume this guy is from non-parallel universe.

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## Bros

Its a human trait that we all have in that we don't like to admit we have a poor product until we have got rid of it.

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## John2b

> I'd spend 2,000 in fuel a year.

  The average Australian car travels ~36 km per day, or 13,000kms per year, and the average fleet consumption (i.e. real fuel usage, not the yellow sticker on the windshield) is ~14 litres per 100 kilometres. So the average Australian car uses approximately 1,820 litres of fuel per year. I wouldn't know what petrol costs because I don't buy any, but the Australian Institute of Petroleum says it was $1.23 averaged over Australia for 2020. So the 'average' person spent ~$2,230 on fuel last year for each vehicle, plus $500 - $1,000 for scheduled service. 
For the same distance the average electric car uses 1,733 kWh of electricity. I wouldn't know what price electricity is because I don't buy any, but the Australian Energy Regulator says it was about 30 cents per kWh last year averaged across Australia, so the owner of an electric car paid about $520 for 'fuel' (if they had to buy it a peak price) and probably $0 for scheduled service, since there isn't any. So that's a saving of $2,200 to $2700 per year. 
According to the Australian Bureaux of Statistics, the average average age of a vehicle on the road is 10.4 years. So a BEV owner would save ~$22,000 to $27,000 during the life of the vehicle. But BEVs are more reliable than equivalent ICEs, because they don' have an internal combustion engine shaking everything to pieces. So theres a bit of change to cover a battery. 
According to vehicle manufacturers the drive-train including battery for a BEV is about 20% cheaper to make than the drivetrain for an ICE vehicle - the rest of the car costs the same of course. And according to vehicle retailers people who have owned BEVs typically do not intend to buy ICE vehicles again. 
Car dealers have been reluctant to embrace BEVs because the dealers lose their lucrative after-sales service profits, however manufacturers benefit from the lower warranty claim rate for BEVs. 
Last year saw ~40% increase year on year for BEV sales, off a low base, whilst total vehicle sales declined 5% globally. Anyone buying shares in ICE vehicles? 
Like it or not, BEVs will dominate world vehicle markets in the next couple of years

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## r3nov8or

Don't worry John2b, I for one like it (generally) and working from home ongoing (probably 4 of 5 days instead of the reverse) means I can charge the car off the roof. Now, to find one I like...

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## phild01

> According to the Australian Bureaux of Statistics, the average average age of a vehicle on the road is 10.4 years. So a BEV owner would save ~$22,000 to $27,000 during the life of the vehicle. But BEVs are more reliable than equivalent ICEs, because they don' have an internal combustion engine shaking everything to pieces. So theres a bit of change to cover a battery.

  But John,you are future predicting without knowing what governments will do without the fuel tax EV's currently don't contribute.

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## John2b

> But John,you are future predicting without knowing what governments will do without the fuel tax EV's currently don't contribute.

  World-wide governments provide direct and indirect subsidies to fossil fuel industries that are many times greater than excise on fuel generates. In Australia fuel excise amounts to something of the order of $10 billion, while fossil fuel subsidies amount to something like $30 billion. You can do the math*s*. 
Our guvmint made sure Australia does not have a car manufacturing industry, but as much as they'd like to, our guvmint cannot legislate to prevent the rest of the world going BEV. The guvmint's energy spin merchants might convince many Australians that the world is flat, but they can't yet stop the sun from rising every morning, because the world isn't flat.

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## phild01

You miss the point regardless how you figure subsidies. Governments are greedy for money and look for any opportunity to tax us all. So the spin will be ev's must contribute to the pool of money got from fuel tax that is leaking out due to an uptake of ev's. So cost of ev ownership will be out of kilter with what you quoted previously. As I see it the motorist will still pay the same fuel cost as for an ice car if dependent on the grid.

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## John2b

Why does the guvmint need tax revenue? Since Abbott took power the LNC guvment has spent nearly $1trillion in excess of taxation revenue, and still they are accelerating spending. How is that possible? Fiat economics; expenditure and revenue have no fiscal relationship in the guvmint's budget. And you've entirely missed my point, which is that BEVs are coming, like it or not, EV tax or not.

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## phild01

> And you've entirely missed my point, which is that BEVs are coming, like it or not, EV tax or not.

  Who said they weren't!!!

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## John2b

> Who said they weren't!!!

  There's a namesake of yours who's been pooh-poohing EVs in this thread for yonks. I must have got the two of you mixed up!

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## phild01

> There's a namesake of yours who's been pooh-poohing EVs in this thread for yonks. I must have got the two of you mixed up!

  The post # is???

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## John2b

> As I see it the motorist will still pay the same fuel cost as for an ice car if dependent on the grid.

  The the contribution to guvment revenue from excise on petrol is currently equivalent to about $0.036 per kilometre. The ICE fuel cost including excise is roughly $0.17 per km for the Australian fleet (averaged). The electricity cost at peak price per kilometre for a BEV is approximately $0.04 per kilometre and when excise is added at the same rate as ICE vehicles, the cost would be $0.076, still significant'y less than ½ the fuel cost per kilometre of an ICE vehicle before taking into account lower servicing costs, or factoring the future reduction of electricity cost from renewable energy sources. 
When you objected to my post above for not having factored in a future replacement for fuel excise, you forgot to object to that post not having factoring in the future lower purchase price of BEVs compared to equivalent ICEs once production numbers reach economies of scales, or not factoring in the future reduction in electricity costs as renewable sources increase in proportion of electricity generation, or not factoring the proportion of low cost and no cost electricity used to fuel BEVs. 
For the first time in decades, retail electricity prices across Australia went down last year because of lower wholesale electricity prices (nearly 25% of all electricity generated in Australia last year was from renewable sources) and due to lower transmission costs (because grid upgrades are being deferred or downsized due to roof top solar electricity uptake).

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## METRIX

It will be interesting how essential company supplied cars will work in the future when electric is the norm.
Currently you fill the car up with a supplied fuel card and that's it, the company looks after paying the bill. 
If you have to charge the car up at home, there will have to be some sort of rebate offered to the owner, or a special charge installed which calculates the energy used to charge their car and this amount rebated back to you.
I'm talking about essential company vehicles that are supplied to drivers, not cars that are part of their salary package.

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## r3nov8or

> It's coming, backed by the Ford Motor Company and Amazon. https://rivian.com  Attachment 128464

  It's certainly coming...  https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...ick-up-115801/ 
... But not sure it's backed by Ford (?) as they are doing to the same to defend potential erosion of F-150 sales by Rivian...   https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...rivian-116543/

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## Forrestmount

This maybe a controversial comment and have held off raising the topic.  
There are a lot of weaknesses with electric cars as a solution. I believe EV’s are here to stay but FCV’s will likely become more common is countries like Australia  
My thoughts below  
EV’s will mostly be chartered at night when the main source of power is still coal. So not ideal  
The range of the “tank” is not as some consumer will require. The time to charge if you require at a charge station. Australia’s distances will make it a challenge to solve this problem  
Some car manufacturers are on the fuel cell side and some on the battery side so investments are being made on both sides. 
The biggest reasons I personally like the fuel cell  
Refuelling is quick, 
The hydrogen can be produced from solar and stored   
But I also wonder why we don’t use small hydrogen power plants to feed into the power grid during peak times using the above reasons. I guess the current inefficiency is producing hydrogen is a sticking point.  https://youmatter.world/en/hydrogen-...ability-28156/     
Sent  Pro

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## Marc

> This maybe a controversial comment and have held off raising the topic.  
> There are a lot of weaknesses with electric cars as a solution. I believe EVs are here to stay but FCVs will likely become more common in countries like Australia

  Why is criticising electric vehicles "controversial"? It's not like you are talking about same sex marriage, or Joe Biden's dementia. Now that is tabu for sure ! 
Electric cars are still crap for us and a niche market relegated to Oxford street and as far as Newtown and Glebe.
Will they become the norm as the fake media's tam-tam drums into us every day? 
May be, may be not, one thing for sure, they will not be like the one they try to sell us as the bees knees.  
Hydrogen? Mm ... it goes bang way too easily. 
Comunal batteries? Not with the current technology. 
I think the solution to sell electric cars is to abolish roads. Everything within walking distance, and electric cars for the lazy and the disabled.  :Smilie:

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## UseByDate

> This maybe a controversial comment and have held off raising the topic.  
> There are a lot of weaknesses with electric cars as a solution. I believe EVs are here to stay but FCVs will likely become more common is countries like Australia   https://youmatter.world/en/hydrogen-...ability-28156/ 
> Sent  Pro

  Check out the relative efficiency of battery V hydrogen energy chains.  Efficiency ultimately translates into cost per kilometre travelled.    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7MzFfuNOtY

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## John2b

It gets pretty silly when someone publishes something like this ”1kg of hydrogen storing 236 times more energy than 1 kilogram of lithium-ion batteries”. The electrons used to power a BEV only weight only a tiny amount of that hydrogen. It's the storage system that adds weight - doh. When the weight of the storage tank to hold the hydrogen at 700 times atmospheric pressure is taken into account, the weight advantage is much smaller.

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## UseByDate

> It get pretty silly when someone publishes something like this 1kg of hydrogen storing 236 times more energy than 1 kilogram of lithium-ion batteries. The electrons used to power a BEV only weight only a tiny amount of that hydrogen. It's the storage system that adds weight - doh. When the weight of the storage tank to hold the hydrogen at 700 times atmospheric pressure is taken into account, the weight advantage is much smaller.

   I am not sure what you mean by this sentence.

----------


## r3nov8or

> I am not sure what you mean by this sentence.

  Electrons have different weights??  :Shock:

----------


## Moondog55

Yep Left hand spin electrons have negative weight.  :Biggrin:  :Rofl:  :Hihi:  :Woot:

----------


## UseByDate

> It get pretty silly when someone publishes something like this 1kg of hydrogen storing 236 times more energy than 1 kilogram of lithium-ion batteries. The electrons used to power a BEV only weight only a tiny amount of that hydrogen. It's the storage system that adds weight - doh. When the weight of the storage tank to hold the hydrogen at 700 times atmospheric pressure is taken into account, the weight advantage is much smaller.

  I really don't understand what you are saying.
Surely electrons do not power BEV cars. The number of electrons in the car are the same at the start of a journey as at the end of a journey. No electrons are consumed. Their motion within the car does transmit energy from one place to another, so they are more analogous to that of a drive shaft. No one would claim a drive shaft powers a conventional car. :Confused:

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## Marc

Gilbert Lewis explains it with photons.

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## John2b

Batteries store charge in the form of ions, which are atoms with an excess electron or missing an electron. The energy is in the spare electrons wanting to get back to where they came from. 
It may not be obvious, but the hydrogen in a hydrogen powered vehicle also goes around in a closed cycle; the difference is part of that cycle is outside of the vehicle. Just like no electrons are created or destroyed in a BEV, no hydrogen is created or destroyed in a HEV.

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## Bart1080

> The average Australian ....is ~14 litres per 100 kilometres. .... for each vehicle, plus $500 - $1,000 for scheduled service. 
> According to the Australian Bureaux of Statistics, the average average age of a vehicle on the road is 10.4 years. So a BEV owner would save ~$22,000 to $27,000 during the life of the vehicle. But BEVs are more reliable than equivalent ICEs, because they don' have an internal combustion engine shaking everything to pieces. So theres a bit of change to cover a battery. 
> According to vehicle manufacturers the drive-train including battery for a BEV is about 20% cheaper to make than the drivetrain for an ICE vehicle - the rest of the car costs the same of course. And according to vehicle retailers people who have owned BEVs typically do not intend to buy ICE vehicles again.

  I dont think much of the averages, BoS, Manufacture stats your quoting John  :Smilie: .  
For starters, if I had a car that costs $1,000 for a service, it would be out the door in a flash....if fact I wouldnt be buying it to begin with. I've several ICE cars and the servicing is $80 to $160 a year..depending if I need to do 2 or 4 services based on the 10,000km service I do.  As for the "ave" fuel/100km of 14l, nope, measured ...not what the sticker say...what mine does and the smaller one does, 8, mid size does 10 and the large does 12.5.....unless I'm towing a horse float...then it up around 17. 
I generally have most cars for 15 to 20 years but if I compare 5 years where I need to change the 30,000 battery in an EV 
ICE: purchased 1999 model for $3500 in 2015. 10, services @ $40 each = $400, timing belt $475, Filters - air, fuel, radiater fluid $150, Fuel est $6,000 Total = $6,995 over 5 years.  
EV: If purchased from a dealer $18,000 to $40,000 and at the end of 5 years $14,000 to change over the battery...doesnt include charging costs
EV: non dealer or grey import: same as above + $30,000 for a battery...doesnt include charging costs 
My ICE beats an EV hands down every which way you look at it (purchase price and running costs), even the large car.....miles cheaper, jump in it any time of day/night and travel as many km as I please but I do look forward to the day when they become competitive with how I run my BEV cars.  Providing they are not lathered in BS technology that just fails, should make running these cars and servicing them very simple.

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## Bedford

> I dont think much of the averages, BoS, Manufacture stats your quoting John .  
> For starters, if I had a car that costs $1,000 for a service, it would be out the door in a flash....if fact I wouldnt be buying it to begin with. I've several BEV cars and the servicing is $80 to $160 a year..depending if I need to do 2 or 4 services based on the 10,000km service I do.  As for the "ave" fuel/100km of 14l, nope, measured ...not what the sticker say...what mine does and the smaller one does, 8, mid size does 10 and the large does 12.5.....unless I'm towing a horse float...then it up around 17. 
> I generally have most cars for 15 to 20 years but if I compare 5 years where I need to change the 30,000 battery in an EV 
> BEV: purchased 1999 model for $3500 in 2015.  !0, services @ $40 each = $400, timing belt $475, Filters - air, fuel, radiater fluid $150, Fuel est $6,000 Total = $6,995 over 5 years.  
> EV: If purchased from a dealer $18,000 to $40,000 and at the end of 5 years $14,000 to change over the battery...doesnt include charging costs
> EV: non dealer or grey import: same as above + $30,000 for a battery...doesnt include charging costs 
> My BEV beats an EV hands down every which way you look at it (purchase price and running costs), even the large car.....miles cheaper, jump in it any time of day/night and travel as many km as I please but I do look forward to the day when they become competitive with how I run my BEV cars.  Providing they are not lathered in BS technology that just fails, should make running these cars and servicing them very simple.

  Can you run that past me again, I didn't get it the first time.

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## John2b

> I dont think much of the averages, BoS, Manufacture stats your quoting John .

  I think you meant you have had several ICE (internal combustion engine) not BEV (battery electric vehicle) cars. No one's personal experience is necessarily average. In fact, your ownership experience of ICE vehicles is very similar to mine. In 50 years of vehicle ownership I've had just 6 ICE cars, 2 ICE 4WDs and one BEV car. 
The most expensive to run was a near new Mazda 626 which had scheduled services by the book costing in excess of $1000 per year - in the early 1980s! The cheapest to _service_ was a 2004 BMW 330i which only had one scheduled oil change in 40,000km; the first service was included in the purchase price and the only other issue was a remote key replaced under warranty. 
I know the real consumption for all of my vehicles because I calculate it at every fill-up. The best was a 1993 Suzuki Cappuccino which as I bought it returned 5.9 l/100km, but that was because some idiot had changed the injectors but not the fuel pressure regulator and it was running lean.* After correcting the engine tune to stop it detonating it returned 7.1 l/100km. 
My first car, a 1968 Torana, used 7.8 l/100km, the best BMW was a 1976 325e at 10.1, the worst the BMW 330i at 14.0 (probably had a lot to do with how I drove it). My 1972 Mazda Capella used 8.8 l/100k, and horrible 1984 Mazda 626 (which I could feel wearing out each time I drove it) got 10 l/100km. My current 4WD, a Daihatsu Rocky 2.8 turbo diesel uses 9.5 l/100km. One litre of petrol or diesel has the same amount of energy as 8.9 kWh of electricity and so the Nissan Leaf uses the equivalent of 1.4 l/100km. That's why even charging the car's propulsion battery with a petrol generator still uses less fuel than an equivalent ICE car! 
I have a OBD2 dongle and app specific to the Nissan LEAF. It shows that in two years and 30,000km of my ownership that 5% of the useful life of the battery has been used. The previous owner had used 15% of the battery life in the first 30,000km, and I can see in the OBD2 data that the car had a fast charge every day. The Nissan Leaf's achilles heel is that it does not have active battery cooling, and fast charges significantly heat the battery. I only slow charge the battery from off-grid solar, except on excursions to Adelaide where I do a fast charge on arrival. The service cost for this vehicle has been the grand sum of $0.00 and the total 'fuel' cost has been ~$20 for 6 fast charges in Adelaide. If I sold it today its value is approximately 50% more than I paid for it. 
Is my experience the average? Of course not, no more than your experience is the average. You characterisation of BEV cars is not at all realistic, however. 
*Edit: 'changed the injectors but not the fuel pressure regulator' should be 'changed the ECU (to a motorsports unit) without changing the injectors or fuel pressure regulator'.

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## Marc

I am kung fused ... You bought a BEV 1999 model in 2015 for $3500 ?    :Shock:  
BEV = Battery Electric Vehicle
EV = Electric vehicle 
If you mean that you bought an ordinary run of the mill internal combustion engine vehicle, can you please explain how do you get a service for $40? Blackmailing the mechanic with compromising pictures taken at night, is the only way that comes to mind. My Toyota takes more than $40 in oil, let alone everything else required.  
Still, rephrasing your post, a 'normal' car beats an electric car in cost, convenience, performance, practicality, towing capacity, endurance, longevity, environment friendliness, and many more I can't be bothered enumerating. 
There are of course exceptions, particularly when you compare Pomelo with kumquat, or if you live in the kimberleys and compare with living on Gilligan's island. Horses for courses. 
Talking about horses, I think a nice sulki tied to a Pinto Pony would beat an electric vehicle too, mutatis mutandis. 
 EV are an expensive gimmick for 95% of the population. THe problem is that the 5% that profit from a peculiar situation, are much louder.

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## John2b

> It will be interesting how essential company supplied cars will work in the future when electric is the norm.

  With the exception of taxis and long haulage trucks most vehicles are not on the road 24/7, leaving plenty of time for them to be charged when garaged or at the place of work. In European countries where off-street parking is rare, street light poles are being adapted for on the street BEV charging.

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## Marc

The above comment equates to advocating that petrol stations leave their pumps unlocked for cars to pump free fuel in them. 
The bias and astonishing hypocrisy of using the general public money, to pay for recharging batteries is dumbfounding.
Much more considering that the advantage to the environment is a boldface lie.

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## John2b

> I am not sure what you mean by this sentence.

  An ampere-hour of charge is 3,600 coulombs. The number of electrons required for one coulomb is 6.24150975 x 10 to the power 1018.

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## John2b

> ... But not sure it's backed by Ford (?) as they are doing to the same to defend potential erosion of F-150 sales by Rivian...   https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...rivian-116543/

  Ford had put $500million into Rivian, but later pulled out:   Ford cancels Lincoln electric vehicle program with Rivian https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/28/fo...m-with-rivian/

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## John2b

> The above comment equates to advocating that petrol stations leave their pumps unlocked for cars to pump free fuel in them. 
> The bias and astonishing hypocrisy of using the general public money, to pay for recharging batteries is dumbfounding.
> Much more considering that the advantage to the environment is a boldface lie.

  These networks are being set up by private energy companies and the charge is paid by credit card or phone app - doh!

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## Marc

Doh ... :Doh:  ... sure they may be _now_ ... yet "free" plug in was everywhere in europe. Just like the proposed "free" communal batteries and everything else "free".
Furthermore ... I would like to know at what rate this Oh so wonderful electric vehicles, that are Oh so wonderful on the environment, are charged for the electricity they use. And for how long will the other peasant with their pedestrian fuel burning vehicles pay for EXCISE and the rest of the taxes paid by fuel.

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## phild01

> I know the real consumption for all of my vehicles because I calculate it at every fill-up. The best was a 1993 Suzuki Cappuccino which as I bought it returned 5.9 l/100km, but that was because some idiot had changed the injectors but not the fuel pressure regulator and it was running lean. After correcting the engine tune to stop it detonating it returned 7.1 l/100km.

   :Confused:

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## John2b

> And for how long will the other peasant with their pedestrian fuel burning vehicles pay for EXCISE and the rest of the taxes paid by fuel.

   For every $1 of fuel excise you pay, the guvmint chips in another $2 in direct and indirect subsidies to the oil industry to keep your ICE car viable, even from the taxes of people who drive BEVs. You're welcome!

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## Moondog55

Funny thing is that as the driver of a fuel guzzling ICE I've never seen any personal evidence of a government subsidy for my driving; it seems like the reverse to me.

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## John2b

> 

  The car had a motorsport ECU in it when I got it, but not the injectors or fuel pressure regulator to go with it. I replaced the ECU, injectors and fuel pressure regulator with a matched set from Suzuki Motorsport Japan, which increased torque by 50% and power by nearly 100% over standard tune. Previously detonation occurred whilst the engine operated in 'open loop' i.e. during acceleration and over 4,000 rpm. The consequence was aluminium being deposited on the spark plugs, eventually causing the engine to run roughly. The car was a private import, I suspect by the owner of Suzuki in the City (a car dealer in Adelaide). The car was an absolute hoot to drive in the hills, and the only car my Ducati Monster riding wife ever really enjoyed driving.

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## John2b

> Funny thing is that as the driver of a fuel guzzling ICE I've never seen any personal evidence of a government subsidy for my driving; it seems like the reverse to me.

  Have you ever looked for direct and indirect subsidies to the oil industry?

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## phild01

> I know the real consumption for all of my vehicles because I calculate it at every fill-up. The best was a 1993 Suzuki Cappuccino which as I bought it returned 5.9 l/100km, but that was because some idiot had changed the injectors but not the fuel pressure regulator and it was running lean. After correcting the engine tune to stop it detonating it returned 7.1 l/100km.

   :Confused:  :Confused:

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## Bedford

> 

  My guess is if the engine was ritchened to stop it detonating, it would then be using more fuel.

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## Moondog55

John our whole taxation system is so convoluted that I wouldn't have a ghost of a chance of figuring out how our various governments waste our money, but really I'm only affected by and concerned by A: how much money I have and B:how much staying alive costs me personally.
A is not very much and B is a lot more than I have so I guess my prospects are quite limited
I know I won't live to see the transition to a clean and non-polluting transport system but I hope my kids live that long.

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## Marc

Ha ha, don't get into the myths and fables of subsidies to the bad oil industry without stating the 3 times higher subsidies to the oh so good renewables. 
We done that ad nauseam.  
The fact remains ... and there is nothing wrong with it ... that your electric car is the best choice for you. But your situation is not representative. Most likely not even applicable to a majority within your minuscule community, the rest of the state let alone Australia or God forbid, the rest of the world. Just like my (hypothetical for now) sulky (buggy) and horse.  
The consumer of goods, needs to make a decision based on facts, not emotions or politically distorted statistics for third party gain. 
Just like buying a blender or a toaster, the consumer wants to know the performance per dollar spent to make a smoothy or a toast. Baloney BS is irrelevant and does not contribute to a sensible purchase. I can say without the smallest fear of making a mistake, that 99% of the people who read this forum would be worse off by a country mile if they purchased an electric car today. I could describe the hypothetical 1% but would most likely offend them in the attempt. 
What will it be in 10 years? Not sure, my crystal ball is out of order today. Better luck tomorrow.  :Smilie: 
Meantime for the 99,99% or real car drivers, nota bene ... _you_ are subsidising all this "renewable" clap-trap big time, blinded by the usual claque.

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## r3nov8or

There is a long way to go... both are new in Qld, same model/features, one petrol (MY21), one BEV (MY20), very different price

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## John2b

Phil, As you can see from your highlighted text, you are correct!

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## Bart1080

> can you please explain how do you get a service for $40? Blackmailing the mechanic with compromising pictures taken at night, is the only way that comes to mind. My Toyota takes more than $40 in oil, let alone everything else required.

  Magnatec oil on sale $25, oil filter $10 ....sorry I rounded up!!! should have been $35 and I service myself  :Smilie:   Could never come to paying a mechanic $150 to $300 for something I can do in 30min  :Smilie:

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## Marc

> Magnatec oil on sale $25, oil filter $10 ....sorry I rounded up!!! should have been $35 and I and I service myself

  Yep, I could have guessed that. Sorry mate, irrelevant. 
Cost of servicing includes labour and know how. The fact that you can do it yourself is besides the point. Plenty of people would know how to service and repair an EV. That does not mean the cost of servicing an EV or repairing it is the cost of the little condenser $3 that was required, soldered with the unkle's soldering gun in the cousin's garage.

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## Moondog55

Reminds me to do an oil change on the little KIA, reminds self not to pay somebody $350- to do a $50- job, $15 dollars worth of oil and the rest for the overpriced filter. I can't afford to pay somebody elses overheads

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## Whitey66

> Yep, I could have guessed that. Sorry mate, irrelevant. 
> Cost of servicing includes labour and know how. The fact that you can do it yourself is besides the point. Plenty of people would know how to service and repair an EV. That does not mean the cost of servicing an EV or repairing it is the cost of the little condenser $3 that was required, soldered with the unkle's soldering gun in the cousin's garage.

   So if what you're saying is correct, when we work out how much the average person spends on eating dinners each year we must price it at restaurant prices rather than what it costs us to cook it ourselves with food from the supermarket??
A lot more people service their own car than most people realise, just check with Sparesbox, Supercheap Auto, Repco and the many other online and bricks and mortar stores on their volume of filter and oil sales.

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## Bart1080

be interesting in years to come if one can buy a 20 year old well kept one owner EV with 100,000km on the clock for $3,000 to $4,000 
..that you can just simply jump in and drive for the next 5 years with running costs of only costs <$6,000 (fuel/batteries, Oil/electronics) with zero problems  :Smilie:  
Maybe the electronics will fail more often often (as they do in ICE vehicles)....re: expensive repairs and so from a $cost of ownership view point, we are no better off.
I'd like to think so but time will tell.

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## Marc

Nonsense. 
We are talking about EV and their suitability at this stage ... to replace the classic internal combustion engine car. 
In the analysis, we must add all the components. 
Price to purchase.
Price to keep on the road.
May be cost per Km.
Longevity.
Resale value. 
In the above _all_ component must feature honestly and realistically.
For example ... the classic fraud is to say "EV are environmentally friendly"
Leaving aside the fact that the environment is not a person to befriend, (classic call to emotions), it is also a lie because the manufacture of EV when you consider _all_ it's components including mining, you end up with a much wider and deeper mess than when you make the same average petrol car. Not to mention the string of highway robbery with subsidies. 
But to your point. maintenance. 
You may think you are doing maintenance to your car by changing oil and filter. Good luck to you. Fortunately most people take the car to a mechanic that will take care of way more than that, or the highway would be littered with broken down cars that the owner has done "maintenance" to. 
Sure, a handful of people have the knowledge, the tools, the space and the time to perform a bit more than oil and filter. All power to them. But they are just a bunch of people with more time on their hand than most. 
So in the honest cost analysis, we must include cost of service, and life of parts, to come to an unemotional conclusion. Say ... how much will the average Joe that has no clue nor inclination, time nor tools for mechanical prowess spend besides fuel, say ... in ten years, driving 20,000 Km a year?  
And the same with an EV to make a comparison. 
Of course the above is not possible because both vehicles are not comparable unless you have a 4"x2" beam inside your eye. 
Your cooking simile is inapplicable because when the norm is for people NOT to be able to do proper and wholesome car maintenance on their own, there is almost always someone in the house that can cook and therefore produce food at cost. Not to mention that a house in order to be considered habitable must include a kitchen with a kitchen sink. A fully equipped garage with car lift and thousands in tools is, to date, not a requirement for a home. 
So my conclusion is that cars must include cost of professional maintenance in a cost analysis for a long period of time. No point doing this for the first 2 years of the car's life. 10 years seems a good period, and if done this way the EV would fail miserably too. Fail in the environment department, in the cost of purchase and in the cost of keeping on the road. Resale value I live to you. The numbers are enough to make most people eyes water. 
Of course they do drive some good points. Emotional value ? Aesthetic value? Virtue signalling value? Minority herd mentality value? ... and a few more someone can add. perhaps the most powerful is virtue signalling. Look at meeee, look at meee ... I looove the environment therefore I spend way more to "protect it"  
Pass me the bucket please ...

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## Bart1080

> Sure, a handful of people have the knowledge, the tools, the space and the time to perform a bit more than oil and filter. All power to them. But they are just a bunch of people with more time on their hand than most.

  or simply an interest that is different to you or I  :Smilie:  
I could do the same but mine is at a basic level (undo the sump plug) and interests are in less fiddly and frustrating things than mechanics (for me)! 
Phew, and I thought I got carried away with long winded responses   :Biggrin:

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## Marc

I think that car maintenance is a thing that gets to (usually male but not always) at some stage in their life, and then disappears. There is a string of reasons for not doing it yourself. I was an all things mechanic fanatic since age 3 until approximately age 35. Did everything imaginable including rebuilding engines and gearboxes. What happened? Lost interest, and learned to earn more money than the mechanic. Simple equation I suppose  :Smilie: 
There you have it, short answer.

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## intertd6

> I think that car maintenance is a thing that gets to (usually male but not always) at some stage in their life, and then disappears. There is a string of reasons for not doing it yourself. I was an all things mechanic fanatic since age 3 until approximately age 35. Did everything imaginable including rebuilding engines and gearboxes. What happened? Lost interest, and learned to earn more money than the mechanic. Simple equation I suppose 
> There you have it, short answer.

  there must be something wrong with me! I've been making more than a mechanic for way over 30 something years & I still service & rebuild all my plant, equipment & vehilcles, I wouldn't do it if I didn't get the satisfaction of doing the task & saving a few bob, which is always better in my pocket than someone else's.
I do have laugh at the demented idea that electric vehicles in the next decade or two are going to fully replace Combustion engine vehilcles, the vast distances & remoteness of Russia , Australia, Canada, South America, Africa & Central Asia will determine it as a politicians pipe dream .
inter

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## Marc

i am sure each person has a story to share about car maintenance. I use to live in an apartment as a teen, and still managed to fix the car on the street crawling under on my back. Enthusiasm and satisfaction I suppose. 
I lost interest in cars a long time ago, however I still have the bug to work on equipment like generators, excavators, skid steer and boats. Go figure. The car just don't do it for me. 
The idea that there is a majority doing maintenance on their car as suggested further up, is an illusion, no majority, not even a minority. More like a small group either enthusiast or forced by necessity. 
Who will do maintenance on an electric car? I suppose that when they become more common, people will learn to do the basics. Plenty of videos on youtube ... They are simple after all. Would require different tools and equipment for sure. Lots of spare parts from wreckers in europe. I love the junkyard in Star Wars.

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## John2b

> Who will do maintenance on an electric car? I suppose that when they become more common, people will learn to do the basics.

  What do you think is different about maintenance? Apart from the drive system, all the other systems are the same as an ICE car - nothing new there. And like modern ICE cars, maintenance is minimal; extended life fluids, no grease nipples, etc. The drive train is as simple as; no gearbox, no clutch, the motor is always connected to the driving wheels through a differential or directly to the wheels in the case of multi-motor BEVs. Reverse is achieved by reversing the direction of current to the  motor. The drive train has around 20 moving parts, compared to around 2000 in an ICE vehicle. 
Sure, electronics will fail, but not BEVs don't have the main cause of failure of electronics in vehicles - the internal combustion engine that shakes everything to pieces. And regardless of the propulsion system repairing of electronics these days consists of swapping out modules. 
Car dealers in Australia have had to be dragged kicking and screaming to sell BEVs because they know they where lose a substantial source of income from servicing vehicles; they've seen the experience of Nissan dealers with the Leaf model introduced in 2011. 
It's also ironic that the detractors of BEVs seem to be limited to people who have not owned a BEV. Car dealers who sell BEVs know only too well that owners of BEVs will not buy an ICE again, except where there is no suitable alternative.

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## Bedford

> My current 4WD, a Daihatsu Rocky 2.8 turbo diesel

  If you were only allowed one vehicle that would do all you want, would it be the Rocky or the Leaf?

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## Marc

> the detractors of BEVs

  Always the emotional component, just like with climate change.  
I have a cordless vacuum cleaner. Does that make me a detractor of corded vacuum cleaners? What nonsense! Each machine has a place. If you can not see that electric cars in the current condition are not suitable to replace petrol cars, you have a problem. 
Will they be liked by some? Sure, why would otherwise people pay triple the price? My interpretation is that since consumer stupidity is hard to establish, I attribute this to other values, that have nothing to do with transportation. Political virtue signalling one of them, ignorance another, being able to manage with short trips and valuing the lure of plugging the car in overnight and charge it for "free"? Evading the established fuel taxes and leaving it to the oh so dirty petrol cars? 
Plenty to choose from.
I am not a detractor of electric vehicles, I am a detractor of political stupidity dissemination.

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## Moondog55

EVs for around town and shopping only need a range of 100 kilometres so why not have  more than one form?
A modern version of the tiny Messerschmidt of the 60s with just enough room for me and the shopping and the range to get me to Safeway twice a week and I'd happily buy one now IF I had any money
Plus another hybrid with a range of at least 1000klicks,

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## John2b

> If you were only allowed one vehicle that would do all you want, would it be the Rocky or the Leaf?

  Your question has an implicit false dilemma of black versus white, to which I don't have an answer because I don't need to consider your proposition. It's like asking "If you could have only one tool would it be a hammer or a saw?" 
To the extent that I can I use the appropriate tool for the job, be it using a hammer or nail-gun for nails, or drop or hand saw for cutting. To the extent that it is practical I use the vehicle that is up to the task, tempered by comfort, practicality and cost. The propulsion system is not directly relevant to the answer per se. 
In ordinary circumstances the BEV is the vehicle of choice because of its superior comfort. Where the terrain is like to to risk damage to or not be navigable by the BEV, I use the 4WD. If the trip exceeds the range of the BEV and there is no practical recharging option on route, then I use the 4WD under sufferance. The Nissan Leaf is treated like a farm vehicle with anything and everything thrown in the back, although I have resisted putting a tow bar and roof racks on it - I have the Rocky for those occasions.

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## johnc

> If you were only allowed one vehicle that would do all you want, would it be the Rocky or the Leaf?

  You should include a third option, after all you may get rid of both and buy something else. Although it is an odd question, unless you are in that position why would you consider it. Also why on earth would we only be allowed one vehicle, the proposition makes no sense at all.

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## John2b

> I am not a detractor of electric vehicles, I am a detractor of political stupidity dissemination.

  You are not 'not a detractor of electric vehicles' so it is odd you make an aggrieved response to a post directed to people who are.

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## John2b

> You should include a third option, after all you may get rid of both and buy something else. Although it is an odd question, unless you are in that position why would you consider it. Also why on earth would we only be allowed one vehicle, the proposition makes no sense at all.

  What, you've seen the elephant in the room - LOL.

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## phild01

> .... Although it is an odd question, unless you are in that position why would you consider it. Also why on earth would we only be allowed one vehicle, the proposition makes no sense at all.

  The question makes a lot of sense to me, many people, including me, choose a vehicle that covers all bases adequately for their purposes. Having 2 different vehicles is a waste of resources while seldom on the road.

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## John2b

> The question makes a lot of sense to me, many people, including me, choose a vehicle that covers all bases adequately for their purposes. Having 2 different vehicles is a waste of resources while seldom on the road.

   So for your one car would you choose a vehicle with rack & pinion steering or recirculating ball steering?

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## phild01

> So for your one car would you choose a vehicle with rack & pinion steering or recirculating ball steering?

  Hardly see the point of that question at all, maybe you can explain. As it is, what cars still use recirculating ball steering!!

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## Bedford

> Your question has an implicit false dilemma of black versus white, to which I don't have an answer because I don't need to consider your proposition. It's like asking "If you could have only one tool would it be a hammer or a saw?"

  No it's not, it's referring to your vehicles, not apples and oranges.

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## Marc

So I am not a not electric car detractor. Love it.  
Mate, I feel I have known you for a long time. I am who I am and among other things, I hate posturing and virtue signalling of the green kind. 
However, in this case I made myself clear on numerous occasions. I see your choice of electric car as a good one for you and your peculiar and punctual circumstance.  
To make it extensive to others is what in my view is off the chart. I have no use for an electric car in the current format. And I wouldn't buy one if I won the lotto.
 And I venture that mine is the same situation that most ordinary people are in at this present time. Take away the handful of Newtown dwellers of course. 
Others may think it is a God sent and rush to the bank to get a loan approved and pay triple the going price to be able to say they are saving the planet with their oh so altruistic choice. 
There is one born every day. 
The day an EV is comparable even remotely to what I require from a car, I will be first in line.
Meantime, I will speak my mind about them and about those who brandish rehashed propaganda for some obscure agenda they probably don't even understand.

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## Bedford

> You should include a third option,

  But John2b said he had two vehicles.   

> Although it is an odd question,

  It certainly got some odd replies.   

> unless you are in that position why would you consider it. Also why on earth would we only be allowed one vehicle, the proposition makes no sense at all.

  Plenty of Owner Corporations limit to one vehicle as well as retirement villages. :Rolleyes:  
Also, not everyone can afford more than one vehicle, so have to choose one that does all they want/need.

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## John2b

> Hardly see the point of that question at all, maybe you can explain. As it is, what cars still use recirculating ball steering!!

  The question has as much point as "if I only had one car would it be black or blue, or would it be ICE or BEV". The method of propulsion is hardly the only consideration; in ICE vehicles there are still diesel, gas, high octane, low octane versions to consider. BTW Many SUVs and most 4WDs still use circulating-ball steering because they are able to accommodate more steering travel, are more rugged and cheaper to manufacture.

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## John2b

> No it's not, it's referring to your vehicles, not apples and oranges.

   Your question is hypothetical and I do not have an answer. It's not something I have not needed to consider and if a time comes when I do, the answer in the future could well be determined by factors unknown at this time. 
As far as age homes are concerned where one vehicle only is allowed, a BEV is a no-brainer. I wished I could have talked my 90 year old mother into one! She'd never have to go to a petrol station or garage again. Unfortunately (for her) she bought a new Mazda CX-3, not that's there's anything wrong with them.

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## phild01

> The question has has as much point as the if I only had one car would it be black or blue, or would This it be ICE or BEV. The method of propulsion is hardly the only consideration; in ICE vehicles there are still diesel, gas, high octane, low octane versions to consider. BTW Many SUVs and most 4WDs still use circulating-ball steering because they are able to accommodate more steering travel, are more rugged and cheaper to manufacture.

   Geeze you have a way obfuscating a comment I made of that people might wish to just have one car to suit their purposes; and generally that of course makes the case for an ICE vehicle more attractive than an EV. This situation will not change until 2 things happen: manufacturing costs drop significantly and battery technology significantly improves. I think you realise this and just want legislation that forces us to buy EV *right now*. I object to that and so am happy to let all this happen as a normal competitive process. That is not being anti EV at all, I believe in electric propulsion being superior to that of a liquid fuel motor but big obstacles are ever present, and not in your mind those being the government.

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## John2b

> So I am not a not electric car detractor.

  So you said..   

> Mate, I feel I have known you for a long time.

  Based on your attempts to second guess my supposed ideology, and your reinterpretation of my posts to mean things I don't, I'd say you don't know me well at all. For example I actually share your contempt for greenwashing. 
I'm not silly enough to think that anything I do will 'save the planet' or even that saving the planet is something virtuous. That doesn't mean that I can't treat other human beings with respect, and aspire to walk lightly on the planet. The planet will spit us humans out when it's had enough. 
Nor do I see any virtual in the mad scramble to move wealth to a handful, AKA neoliberal economics, introduced by the Howards, Thatchers, Reagans, et al of the world. The US is twenty years ahead of Australia in that endeavour and if there is any doubt about how the resulting social disruption is going to end up, look at the end of Trump's presidency and the storming of the Whitehouse for clues.

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## John2b

> Geeze you have a way obfuscating a comment I made of that people might wish to just have one car to suit their purposes; and generally that of course makes the case for an ICE vehicle more attractive than an EV....

  ...or not, as in my reply to Bedford above. It's prudent to look at the whole package, not just whether the mirrors are remote control or the motor is electric.   

> I think you realise this and just want legislation that forces us to buy EV *right now.*

  Not at all. I couldn't give a rats whether BEVs or skateboards dominate future transport. The first post in this thread contained some truths and some fallacies. My posts in this thread have mostly been pointing out misinformation about BEVs and their suitability for Australian conditions.

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## phild01

> ...or not, as in my reply to Bedford above. It's prudent to look at the whole package, not just whether the mirrors are remote control or the motor is electric.

  Still have little idea why you see confusion in what I say! Bedford's question was not odd and plenty of people find the happy medium in having just one vehicle.

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## John2b

> Still have little idea why you see confusion in what I say! Bedford's question was not odd and plenty of people find the happy medium in having just one vehicle.

  Where is the confusion? Buy a car based on whether it suits your purpose, not whether it's ICE or BEV. That's how I buy mine. 
BTW Bedford asked _me_ what _I_ would do in a hypothetical situation for which I don't have an answer. But let's say our guvmint banned second vehicles. I would most likely not keep either the Rocky or the Leaf, in that case, and replace them with a different vehicle that suited my purpose, and it would most likely be electric for reliability, ownership experience and economic reasons - in my circumstances.

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## phild01

> Where is the confusion? Buy a car based on whether it suits your purpose, not whether it's ICE or BEV. That's how I buy mine.

  You have conveniently avoided what was put to you and I can only assume that the Rocky would do all you need to do and the Leaf makes it easier for you to do all you need to do but not vice versa.

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## John2b

> You have conveniently avoided what was put to you and I can only assume that the Rocky would do all you need to do and the Leaf makes it easier for you to do all you need to do but not vice versa.

   That would be a false assumption. I could not live with the Rocky as an only vehicle; it's too uncomfortable and heavy to drive for everyday use. And as good a car as the Leaf is, I think it is bog ugly; I own it for economic reasons.

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## John2b

> You have conveniently avoided what was put to you ...

  ...because it was (for me) a nonsensical proposition, and I suspect an attempt at a 'gotcha'. You may not have seen my edit above:   

> BTW Bedford asked _me_ what _I_ would do in a hypothetical situation for which I don't have an answer. But let's say our guvmint banned second vehicles. I would most likely not keep either the Rocky or the Leaf, in that case, and replace them with a different vehicle that suited my purpose, and it would most likely be electric for reliability, ownership experience and economic reasons - in my circumstances.

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## phild01

> ...because it was (for me) a nonsensical proposition, and I suspect an attempt at a 'gotcha'. You may not have seen my edit above:

  Whatever which way you want to look at it but if the government said to us all you are only allowed one car, I'm sure you could find a car that you could put up with.

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## Marc

> ...That doesn't mean that I can't treat other human beings with respect, and aspire to walk lightly on the planet. The planet will spit us humans out when it's had enough.

    Ha ha John, c'est plus fort que tu ...  This thread reminds me of the eighties and nineties when it was trendy to put down 4wd owners. The fake media was determined to 'stamp out' 4wd's and would include in every collision involving a 4wd, the nature of the car's driving gear. When the cars involved where ordinary 2 wd, that is the majority of accidents, such matter was ignored.
PK, the king of fake, said repeatedly that "4wd have to be taxed off the road". 
For some strange quirk of fate, half of the cars on the road today are some form of 4wd. 
Sure, not the same in France or Italy. Europe sells us their overpriced crap cars that require constant specialised maintenance to keep on the road. 
A bit like the EV? I think so. 
We have different requirements when it comes to cars. 
If EV need "defending" and "detractors" have to be hated, there is something fishy going on. Consumer products win the market with what they have to offer, not with emotional claptrap. 
The appeal to emotions is for the fake, the green and the lefties. 
 Do you 'hate' Apple computers? who cares! What about Greek Yogurt? Coriander? Trainspotters? Barbie collectors? Battery driven nail guns? Chinese excavators? Fake Honda motors?

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## John2b

A Washington family that bought one of the first Nissan Leaf electric cars in the US has celebratd 10 years of ownership and the milestone of driving 200,000km without paying for petrol. “Over last 10 years there’s no real maintenance costs, there’s been no trips to the dealership. "...once you’ve had an electric car you’re really not going to look at anything else. There’s no going back.”   https://thedriven.io/2021/02/01/family-celebrates-200000km-milestone-in-nissan-leaf-and-no-petrol-bills/

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## Marc

Some thoughts on marketing EV's  https://youtu.be/pLcqJ2DclEg

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## PhilipD

Hi there. I'm new here but am very interested in V2H. Any news, contacts, etc, for the Australian market? Thanks

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## elver

> Hi there. I'm new here but am very interested in V2H. Any news, contacts, etc, for the Australian market? Thanks

  Check out the obscenely overpriced wall box Quasar. $10k for a separate inverter and some electronic handshaking.  Despicable price gouging.  
Non au approved Chinese boxes cost about 1/4 of that.  They should cost no more than a decent solar inverter. All they do is take ~300v dc and output 240v Ac - same as your solar inverter.  
My leaf can do v2g but isn’t worth it till the price comes down. Right now you *r* better off filling your roof with solar panels to the same value.

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## phild01

The future of EV charging - Renew  V2H systems are yet to be certified for use in Australia and the systems currently available are only for vehicles that use the CHAdeMO DC charging plug (Nissan and Mitsubishi vehicles only). Bidirectional charging for vehicles with CCS charging plugs (the emerging standard used in all other vehicles) is in development though, and planned to be available by 2025. 2025 also appears to be the likely date for V2H systems to become readily available in Australia.

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## Marc

> A Washington family that bought one of the first Nissan Leaf electric cars in the US has celebratd 10 years of ownership and the milestone of driving 200,000km without paying for petrol. “Over last 10 years there’s no real maintenance costs, there’s been no trips to the dealership. "...once you’ve had an electric car you’re really not going to look at anything else. There’s no going back.”   https://thedriven.io/2021/02/01/family-celebrates-200000km-milestone-in-nissan-leaf-and-no-petrol-bills/

  Yes, I would celebrate too. Celebrate that for ten years they have not paid their fair share of taxes, used every available subsidies, and lie about "having no petrol bill" What does that even mean? They did not have diesel bill either, no aviation fuel bill! used zero Greek Yogurt ... Eureka!
My car's electricity bill is also zero. Must celebrate!

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## John2b

> The future of EV charging - Renew

  I'm not convinced that V2H or V2G is a good idea. Compared to a wall mounted battery a BEV is a very expensive battery cabinet for a house or grid connected battery bank. In effect there is only so many kms of range built into the battery of a BEV before the battery needs replacing, so depleting that future range up powering a house is of questionable merit IMHO. 
Using the appropriate tool for the job is usually best in the long run. We're off grid and I use the house batteries for the house and the car batteries for the car, not the other way around. The objective is to get the most economic life out of both expensive sets of batteries. For the car that means using the propulsion batteries exclusively for propulsion. The type and specification of the house batteries are such that I expect them to outlive me, but that won't happen if they are constantly drawn down to charge the car. 
With only very rare exceptions I only charge the car off the sun when the house batteries are full. This is generally possible even on cloudy days, although both how far the car went yesterday and today, and how far it is going tomorrow and the day after impact on the charging. It would be easier if I wasn't conscious of preserving the life of the house battery, or if we were grid connected and could charge the BEV overnight on cheap electricity without thinking about it.

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## elver

John2b, 
Im not sure cars are expensive house batteries. My grey import leaf was $30k, so at that price its a 30kW battery with free wheels. (It only had 14000km on it)
A 30kW battery for the house would be the same price or more, (price locally here in country nsw is north of $1k/kW for house batteries (installed)) 
We burn only 6kW per night. (We have optimised efficiency all round in our house of 4). For me using 6kW from the car overnight is nothing in terms of dent into the expected range the next day, unless I plan a big trip - in that case top up charge would be needed.  
Of course you need a decent solar system to run the house the rest of the time, and top up that 6kw the next day.  My solar is sized to ensure ~2kW production on rainy days so that we actually produce pretty constant minimum  output no matter what the weather, rather than being sized for whatever the export limitation is set at.  
What is a shame though is the cost of the box to use my battery on wheels as a house battery.  Its so pricey that it would be cheaper to buy an old leaf, park it out the back and make it a permanent house battery, direct wired to a hybrid inverter.  But thats scalable production economics for you.

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## John2b

> Im not sure cars are expensive house batteries. My grey import leaf was $30k, so at that price its a 30kW battery with free wheels.

   I would have thought 30kW of lithium house storage battery was <$20k these days, since 10kW packs start ~$6000 and are expandable. For our house we have 48kWh of lead-carbon batteries that cost less than $10000 a few years ago. The battery sizing is based on not drawing down past 50%, but still having the second 50% as a huge reserve in emergency. Carbon anodes don't sulphate so the design life of the batteries is decades and they will stand deep discharge.   

> For me using 6kW from the car overnight is nothing in terms of dent into the expected range the next day, unless I plan a big trip - in that case top up charge would be needed.

  I am not talking about range left in the battery for the next day, I'm talking about the total distance you can drive the car before you need a new propulsion battery, or new car. Every time you cycle a battery (any rechargeable battery, lead, lithium, whatever) the capacity drops. At first the drop in capacity does not affect the car's range because the Leaf, like all BEVs, does not fully charge or fully discharge to the rated capacity of the battery. I have read for a 30kW leaf, the maximum capacity used when new is 24kWh. After so many 10,000s of kilometres, or 100s of battery cycles, the Leaf's battery capacity will fall below 24kWh and the range will start to reduce. Using the battery as a V2H will bring forward the time this range reduction starts to happen.  
We're off grid, although the property once had a grid connection. The grid here on the island is unreliable, and the point of solar for us is reliability. That means following the KISS principle (keep it simple, stupid!). The more sophisticated a system is, the greater the number of points of failure. And Murphy's Law means that it will go wrong at the most inconvenient time!

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## PhilipD

> Check out the obscenely overpriced wall box Quasar. $10k for a separate inverter and some electronic handshaking.  Despicable price gouging.  
> Non au approved Chinese boxes cost about 1/4 of that.  They should cost no more than a decent solar inverter. All they do is take ~300v dc and output 240v Ac - same as your solar inverter.  
> My leaf can do v2g but isnt worth it till the price comes down. Right now you *r* better off filling your roof with solar panels to the same value.

  Thank you. I have a contact in China for batteries to make a wall for 1/3 the price of a Tesla one, but I'd rather put the money into the vehicle and V2H charger. I will ask my contact if he has access to the charger. Will this mean I also need a special invertor capability? And when I buy a Porsche Taycan, which has 800v architecture,.........

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## PhilipD

Just watched a video - he claimed a $4K price tag - that's about $5K here, plus postage.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDP4L-slB0k&t=14s  
type in V2H on YouTube and listen to the talk on Fully Charged Live

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## PhilipD

From my enquiry:
Hello  Philip , 
Good Day .
Thanks for interesting in our V2H .
1, Our V2H , output is single phase 220Vac .
It can supply power to AC load from Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi . 
2, The V2H 3KVA , EXW price is 2200 USD 
the shipping cost is 520 USD  
Best Regards,
Mila    *Sales Manager*  *Mila Cao* 
Skype : mila_1364
Mobile : 0086 13925240940
Email:mila@setec-power. com www.setec-power.com

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## Bart1080

Something I've been saying about EV for a long time - if your buying it for "green" reasons then don't buy it. The same can be said for solar panels...a lot of oil burnt just to get it on your roof.....but recognise we need to start somewhere on developing other alternative energy sources/storage   :Smilie:   
Interesting about hydrogen though.  
Our gas networks future will be slowly converting to hydrogen (H) with trials already started on an ideal "mix" that's compatible with our appliances (100% H has different characteristics and burns differently to NG) as our natural gas sources are depleted, too expensive to mine or fully exported to our lovely bully dictatorship neighbor!!!   
Extract:  *Electric Vehicles Are Not As Green As They Seem* The EV revolution has gained momentum through the belief that consumers are doing something good for the environment. Although it is better than oil, this is not always the case. Thackeray explains that “*EV vehicles are not clean or even eco-friendly*, EV batteries contain minerals which have to be mined for. Carbon fuel vehicles are used to move the minerals to factories, big energy costs are incurred to make the batteries and to produce the energy to run the EV, not forgetting that the electricity generated has lost over 30% in ailing infrastructure before it hits our plug sockets.    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariann...h=5a54b76f41db

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## PhilipD

Thanks. good news is though, that battery technology is improving at such a rate, with solid state and other types that get away from rare earth minerals, and in most cases, EV owners charge at home and already have solar panels and battery walls, so no power from gas, oil or coal-fired power stations.  
Now there's V2H technology so you don't have to buy a battery wall. Interesting, ICE vehicles lose 70-90% of energy just operating and then can be down by 60% after a couple of hundred thousand kms.  
Watched a video of a seven year old Tesla that had lost only 5% of the original P85 battery power and only lose about 25% in efficiency converting battery power to energy at the wheels. I like the idea of hydrogen on demand 'cause storage seems to have lots of safety issues - more than petrol, like double skinned, annual inspection, pressure tanks, etc. A lot more involved than LPG. Cheers

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## Bros

> EV owners charge at home and already have solar panels and battery walls, so no power from gas, oil or coal-fired power stations.

   I don't think you have thought that through with a 15Kw power wall a 50Kw car battery half charged and a house that need power to function and like most workers need charging of a night.

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## John2b

> Thanks. good news is though, that ...

  ... the detractors of EV are so wrong it's embarrassing, well at least I am am embarrassed on their account. And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway. BEVs will save their owners a lot of money, and already do. Manufacturing a vehicle with ~20 moving parts in the propulsion system instead of ~2000 does have significant impacts on costs at point of sale, and perhaps even more significantly in lower warranty expenses after the fact.

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## Bedford

> And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

  Great to hear the planet doesn't need saving, thanks John.

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## John2b

> Great to hear the planet doesn't need saving, thanks John.

   What needs preserving are conditions for human life to prevail on the planet. There were 33 days that exceeded 39 °C averaged across Australia in 2019, many more than the number from 1960 to 2018 combined which totalled just 24 days. This change has been associated with an increase in extreme fire weather which facilitated the 2019–20 Black Summer bushfires across Australia.

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## John2b

> Interesting about hydrogen though. https://www.forbes.com/sites/mariann...h=5a54b76f41db

  The same 'expert' you quote had this to say about hydrogen:  The Inefficiency Of Hydrogen The use cases for hydrogen in transport are crippled by its inherent inefficiencies: “three times as much renewable electricity is needed to power a hydrogen truck compared to a battery electric truck,” explains Mark Thackeray, Managing Director of Access. Plus, a great deal of energy is lost in the production, distribution, and conversion of hydrogen back to electricity.  
Volkswagen’s Scania truck brand - one of the only heavy vehicle manufacturers with hydrogen vehicles in operations with customers - has decided to discontinue its hydrogen development after concluding that hydrogen is not economically viable for trucks. “Today, both light and heavy duty hydrogen vehicles have at least a 30-50% higher capital expenditure cost compared with an equivalent EV,” says Thackeray.

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## Bart1080

Interesting article and soon to be released with a $5,000 discount!!!!
might have to buy 2 at that price. https://www.inceptivemind.com/lavo-w...wo-days/17778/ https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/...attery-review/

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## PhilipD

I don't think we can save the planet anyway. It's already destroyed itself five times without our help (we weren't here burning fossil fuels) - what makes people think we can stop it happening again? Have a look at the "Just have a think" series on YouTube: some of the water flowing round the planet takes 1,000 years to do it's thing - good luck stopping that overnight or before we run out of fossil fuels? In the meantime however, I do think we need to keep the air as clean as we can, fresh water fresh and soil arable. Cheers

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## PhilipD

Was basing it on my friend's situation:  6kWh panels, a 15 kWh Tesla battery wall and a Model 3 Tesla. Yes' they're retired, but just like mobile phone users, they keep the car topped up each day (between 20 - 80%), so you're not sucking 15 kWh out of the wall every night. You can control how much you put into the car, so there's some left to run the house. We don't have a battery wall, but we export at least 4 kWh from our very inefficient home every day, and yes we have reverse cycle for heating and cooling.

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## r3nov8or

Don't worry about the planet. It'll extinguish us when it's had enough of our crap, and then will recover (as usual)

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## John2b

> ...what makes people think we can stop it happening again? ...

  I don't know anyone who thinks that. It just isn't necessary that it is happening now as a consequence of what humanity is doing, unequivocally known for ~125 years.

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## phild01

Hope things don't go too far reversing the planet'climate, I like a bit of warmth, our last summer was the coldest I remember, not to mention the rain.  :Biggrin:

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## Marc

> I don't think we can save the planet anyway. It's already destroyed itself five times without our help (we weren't here burning fossil fuels) - what makes people think we can stop it happening again? ...Cheers

  Don't let the truth come in the way of a good and profitable story (con) like "global warming". You can not shift power and resources telling the green and the gullible that we have little to do with anything to do climate. You must pretend that the sky will fall down unless we start buying electric cars fast. 
I like this electric car ... Has electric start, electric windscreen wipers, electric lights and many more electric parts. Even the paint is electric. I truly love electric cars like this one

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## r3nov8or

A couple of articles/opinion re revenue/road user charges and EV  https://www.racq.com.au/TheRoadAhead...revenue-debate  https://www.racq.com.au/TheRoadAhead...enue-challenge

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## John2b

About ½ a submarine would fund the current aged care crisis, about 1/10 a submarine would fund roads.

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## r3nov8or

> About ½ a submarine would fund the current aged care crisis, about 1/10 a submarine would fund roads.

  Per annum? Electric submarines?

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## John2b

> Per annum? Electric submarines?

  Eclectic submarines. About ½ the annualised cost of an attack class submarine should top up aged care to a standard that would satisfy the Royal Commission's understanding of community expectations.

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## Marc

Actually I think it is only fair that the "clean" cars be subsidised by the "dirty" ones. In fact I think they should install powerpoints in street lights for the good and clean, altruistic EV to fuel up free. 
What's wrong with that? (Only that EV pollute worse than a petrol car, but don't tell the consumer that) 
Oh ... and the idea of selling a few submarines to say, Indonesia for example is a great idea. Use the rupees to pay for more "free" nursing homes.
"Free" is good, I love it!
I pay for the so called "Free" nursing homes, housing, NDS, hospitals, schools, and the rest of the "free" stuff every day. A little bit more, equivalent to half a submarine is a drop in the ocean. 
I have money after all, (fell in my lap without even asking) 
And as far as driving a dirty diesel vehicle, I clearly must pay extra for the smoke out of my tailpipe. After all the massive EV manufacturing pollution stays in China well hidden from view, whilst my modest puff of smoke is here for all to see. 
Free aged care. How about free uber eat? We can force those bastards who have 2 cars to sell one and pay for free uber with that. There is a solution for everything.

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## UseByDate

> About ½ a submarine would fund the current aged care crisis, about 1/10 a submarine would fund roads.

  What is the point of that. The other half would sink. :Confused:

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## UseByDate

> Eclectic submarines. About ½ the annualised cost of an attack class submarine should top up aged care to a standard that would satisfy the Royal Commission's understanding of community expectations.

  The current vogue is for diversity. Diverse designs will result in eclectic solutions.   :Biggrin:

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## John2b

> What is the point of that. The other half would sink.

   To the best of my knowledge, the navy has struggled to fully crew more than 2 of the 6 Collins boats simultaneously, even with effectively double pay and 6 months leave per annum. So it's a tad ambitious to be building 12 for the new fleet - unless they are planning to use subclass 491 visas holders for crew!

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## UseByDate

> To the best of my knowledge, the navy has struggled to fully crew more than 2 of the 6 Collins boats simultaneously, even with effectively double pay and 6 months leave per annum. So it's a tad ambitious to be building 12 for the new fleet - unless they are planning to use subclass 491 visas holders for crew!

  They would have to invent a brand new visa. Subclass 491 visas can only be nominated by state or territory governments. They would also have to set up an accelerated naturalisation process and also a lax security vetting process. You have to be an Australian citizen to be in the ADF or work for the Department of Defence.

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## Marc

Best way to man ... oops person, the new submarines is by forced conscription of dirty fuel car users. 
Awomen to that!

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## Bros

> 

  I want one.

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## John2b

> I want one.

  They're going electric.  "There will be a Ram electric pickup in the marketplace, and I would just ask you to stay tuned for a little while, and I will tell you exactly when that will be," he said (Fiat Chrysler Automobiles' chief executive officer Mike Manley). 
There is some urgency given the importance of the Ram brand to the automaker and the onslaught of gasoline-electric hybrid and electric trucks on the way in the next two years. General Motors has the 2022 GMC Hummer EV electric pickup coming next year, Ford plans to bring an electric F-150 to market by mid-2022, and Rivian hopes to have salable versions of the R1T rolling off the line in June 2021. Tesla also has its Cybertruck in the works, although it keeps being delayed. Ford also introduced a hybrid powertrain in the 2021 F-150.

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## Marc

And to think it is all for nothing. 
Rather pathetic  https://youtu.be/CA1zUW4uOSw?t=125

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## Bros

> They're going electric.

   That's why I want one now

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## ajm

> What is the point of that. The other half would sink.

  Love it. Such a dad joke.

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## UseByDate

> Love it. Such a dad joke.

  Thank you.

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## Bart1080

> And to think it is all for nothing. 
> Rather pathetic  https://youtu.be/CA1zUW4uOSw?t=125

  
....but the thing is who's to say which side is right?  None of us plebs know let alone the scientist with opposing hypothesis's 
Anyone can scour the internet for information to support their particular view....but who is to say its correct. 
Not unlike some of the questions here with how to do something, get a few different suggestions hopefully based on peoples experience to end up with a predicable outcome.  
Very different with climate change when no one on the planet let alone a scientist has physically lived through past climate change planet events and therefor cannot say with 100% surety what the predictable outcomes will be. 
So I take the view, if they are correct and we do nothing then we are stuffed (even though the planet has changed many times before without us) but if they are correct, then at least we had a crack at improving things  (and it may still be all for nothing or the alternatives no better than what we currently have today such as ICE & EV in my humble opinion...but technology will improve) and create many new industries, alternatives, new technologies and economies in the process....and one can dream that maybe we can achieve "real" less waste/environmental pollution etc in the process   :Smilie:

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## Bedford

*Victorian government tax on electric vehicles a 'disincentive' to go green, users say*   

> The Victorian government yesterday introduced new legislation to  Parliament to impose a tax on electric cars and other zero-emissions  vehicles.

  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-...green/13258232

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## John2b

> *Victorian government tax on electric vehicles a 'disincentive' to go green, users say*

  Almost no one who has actually owned a BEV wants to buy an ICE vehicle again, so I doubt the disincentive would amount to much once the number of BEVs on the road gets to a point that most people are exposed to them. 
The question remains how are they going to collect this tax; by an army of odometer readers? Unless the tax is onerous, the cost of collecting the tax could easily exceed the tax collected.

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## John2b

> ....but the thing is who's to say which side is right?  None of us plebs know let alone the scientist with opposing hypothesis's

  The idea that there is opposing science or some kind of uncertainty about global warming is an urban myth. The basic science (Stefan–Boltzmann law) was settled by 1884 and has not changed significantly since. In in 1896 Savant Arrhenius used the Stefan–Boltzmann law to project that a doubling of atmospheric CO2 would increase the average surface temperature of Earth by 4 degrees centigrade. The actual real life experiment being conducted is on track to prove Arrhenius's 1896 projection remarkably accurate.

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## Bedford

> The question remains how are they going to collect this tax; by an army of odometer readers?

  
Never heard of GPS Tracking? 
Not only will they know how far you've gone, but also where you've been!   https://www.fleetlogix.com.au/soluti...YaAn1eEALw_wcB

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## phild01

> The question remains how are they going to collect this tax; by an army of odometer readers? Unless the tax is onerous, the cost of collecting the tax could easily exceed the tax collected.

  At the time of registration, doesn't similar happen in NZ for diesel cars. 
edit:
It's weird over the ditch About RUC | Waka Kotahi NZ Transport Agency (nzta.govt.nz)

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## Bart1080

...Interesting article https://thedriven.io/2021/03/16/why-...-and-maintain/ 
If it gets to this level (~5k), then you've got my attention  :Smilie:

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## Marc

To much hypothesis and little substance. 70 years ago the consensus was that ... in the year 2000 all cars will fly.
THe article completely ignores the possibility of a new source of energy or other technology unknown today. 
The crystal ball is a bitch ...  :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> ...Interesting article https://thedriven.io/2021/03/16/why-...-and-maintain/

    

> because EVs, and new  manufacturing techniques and the introduction of software, connectivity  and other features will likely reduce the number of parts in a car from  around 10,000 to about 100, or even less.

  I call BS on that. 
So, 
4 tyres 
4 rims 
4 schrader valves 
16 wheel studs 
16 wheel nuts. 
4 indicator tights 
2 head lights 
2 brake lights 
2  tail lights 
2 parking lights 
4 doors 
4 seats 
2 wiper blades 
2 wiper arms (containing multiple parts) 
8 door hinges 
8 door locks 
I could go on but couldn't be bothered......

----------


## Uncle Bob

Moving parts maybe.

----------


## johnc

> I call BS on that. 
> So, 
> 4 tyres 
> 4 rims 
> 4 schrader valves 
> 16 wheel studs 
> 16 wheel nuts. 
> 4 indicator tights 
> 2 head lights 
> ...

  you *r* thinking is so last century one would think you are a boomer! 
We always need to factor in technological change, besides racing cars only need one wheel nut, EV’s will change over time and current technologies will become redundant, I find a 100 parts hard to believe but who knows, always retain an open mind and a bit of curiosity towards change

----------


## Bart1080

...If successful, I would have thought 100 parts is a walk in the park to achieve. 
 From a cost benefit scenario, they are not anywhere near there yet and don't get me started on the "greenness" of EV's....but technology moves very quickly. 
How many additional parts go into making an ICE engine over and above the basics that is  common for any ICE/EV car (all items in your list)...and you forgot the spare wheel  :Smilie: ? 
Too many to list and would be many times more than 100 when looking at the individual parts that make the core systems - fuel, cooling, engine, exhaust, heat shielding etc etc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compon...ustion_engines  
There will be massive changes in the next 10 years, price reductions, improved performance that will likely see EV's out compete ICE from the current limited owner cost benefit proposition once economies of scale for EV's are achieved.
Anyway,  I'd liken it to how hard its to buy/find a late model manual car in Australia today, I think the same would be said for ICE domestic cars within 15 to 25 years and by this time *you are* likely to find driver-less cars common place.....whether we like it or not 
...Driver-less, I wonder what tax the Gov will introduce as a result of getting zero revenue from speeding, red lights etc

----------


## Bedford

*2019 Nissan Leaf Parts*   https://www.nissanpartsdeal.com/2019...eaf-parts.html 
I wonder which of the 100 or less parts they'll keep.

----------


## Bart1080

> To much hypothesis and little substance. 70 years ago the consensus was that ... in the year 2000 all cars will fly.
> The crystal ball is a bitch ...

  Ah yes, but who would have thought 70 years ago we would had 6 air bags, common place fuel injection, bluetooth and that fuel consumption per 100km would halve?....of course that had nothing to do with petrol that is now 20 times the cost per liter than the 50's  :Smilie:  
and that's not to say the overall costs of owning and running a vehicle have greatly changed based on average incomes in todays dollars or explain why todays cars are worthless once they reach the 200,000km mark if _you're_ lucky to get that far without major issues  :Smilie:

----------


## Bart1080

> I wonder which of the 100 or less parts they'll keep.

  
Dunno, but a quick analysis of high level parts/categories: 
Nissan Leaf        = 115
Nissan maxima = 148
Nissan 370Z       = 163 
Difference of ~50 between Leaf and 370Z
But none of those takes into consideration the individual parts in an ICE for engine, exhaust, cooling, power train
The rest is prominently the bare basics a modern car requires such as body, electrical, brake, axle

----------


## John2b

Depends on how you want to count parts. There's 30 or so parts listed for just the air cleaner for a B&S stationary engine! 
But in terms of main component parts, compare an ICE with injectors, valve train, induction system, exhaust system, ignition system, oil system, cooling system, gearbox, etc, to an electric motor with stator, rotor and _no_ clutch and _no_ gearbox.

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## Bedford

The future, "solar panels on your roof charging your vehicle for free overnight."  https://twitter.com/i/status/1377455903079731200   :Doh:

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## Marc

The Australian version of Biden.

----------


## johnc

> The future, "solar panels on your roof charging your vehicle for free overnight."  https://twitter.com/i/status/1377455903079731200

   It’s simple, solar panels charge a battery which you plug a car into at night to transfer to its battery, it’s a thing, it is already happening. Power is free in that case but you do get a hole in the pocket for the infrastructure at home.

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## Marc

Excusing the inexcusable.
To say that solar energy is free, is as stupid as to assure air conditioning is free because the cool air outside cooling the radiator is free ... or oil is free, sure, it is right there underground for anyone to pump for free. Gold is free. Not even idiots are free, they cost us dearly.

----------


## John2b

There's an unsubtle difference between the "cost" of burning in the space of a couple of centuries a stored energy resource that too ½ billion years to accumulate, or doing the same amount of "work" with 0.02% of the energy that arrives from the sun every day. And that is without considering the effect of taking all of that stored carbon and putting it back into the oceans, which in pre-history consisted almost entirely of slime, algae and jellyfish. The global rise of jellyfish and slime is happening right now under everyones noses.

----------


## Marc

Aaaah ... sorry, forgot all that nasty CO2. Horrible thing.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Bedford

*Tesla driverless car crashes into tree and bursts into flames in Texas, killing two*  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-...exas/100078068    
I hope the trees survived.

----------


## METRIX

Shire to be a stupid driver going way too fast and no hands on the wheel, probably asleep as well. 
Ice cars bursting into flames is a daily event with things like Ferraris and Lamborghini.

----------


## johnc

> Shire to be a stupid driver going way too fast and no hands on the wheel, probably asleep as well. 
> Ice cars bursting into flames is a daily event with things like Ferraris and Lamborghini.

  according to the news tonight one passenger was in the back seat the other in the front passenger seat and the navigation system wasn’t a driverless version plus they hit at high speed. Hopefully they hadn’t breed, that level of stupidity needs Darwinism to kick in early.

----------


## John2b

> Ice cars bursting into flames is a daily event with things like Ferraris and Lamborghini.

  There were about 190,000 vehicle fires in the US last year but statistically based on miles driven and collision rates ICE vehicle are ten times more likely to burst into flames than BEV cars. Whilst propulsion battery fires do happen, nothing beats a spark applied to a bomb load of liquid accelerant. 
Of course the plastic content of cars is a significant fuel load irrespective of propulsion system, and a reason vehicles burn so completely. Some plastics (PEs in particular) are virtually solid fuel with about the same energy content per weight as liquid petroleum. Remember the Grenfell Tower fire? PE based external building cladding.

----------


## johnc

While not as advanced as Tesla, both our cars have all that self steer, auto braking and interactive cruise control, it will not follow a map though and would happily take you through a stop sign or red light. Both are out of the VW stable and that gear is for the background to think you could type a message on your phone or take your eyes off the road is for idiots. These guys must have been pushing the limits of the technology, even for something as advanced as the Tesla setup. Lucky they didn't take anyone else out with them.

----------


## PhilT2

> There were about 190,000 vehicle fires in the US last year but statistically based on miles driven and collision rates ICE vehicle are ten times more likely to burst into flames than BEV cars.

  I know I'm getting a bit repetitive here but this is a political issue. Facts don't matter.

----------


## Marc

> I know I'm getting a bit repetitive here but this is a political issue. Facts don't matter.

  As usual, pissing in the wind. "Renewables" are a political creation. "Global warming" is it's parent political fabrication. Electric cars, exist purely in order to pretend solving a non existing problem, whilst making money for the few. All this boogey man fabrications ( political issues) are made possible by those cheerleaders, promoters, admirers and assorted claque, who presume altruism and wear the left shoe with great alacrity in the process.

----------


## John2b

Wow Marc, I didn't realise that ICE cars were not made for profit, but for the benefit of us all out of the goodness of capitalist manufacturer's hearts (sarcasm). The ICE ideologues must be spewing that industry research in Australia shows that much more than 50% of people want to buy an electric car but can't because, at the self-admission of Australian vehicle distributors, 'the country is becoming a "Third World dumping ground" for outdated petrol-engine technology.'

----------


## Marc

By the way ... you "quote" is a fine example of misleading. Surely Australia is a dumping ground for outdated ... well almost everything. That does not mean that electric cars are the latest and finest "updated" technology. They are just overpriced,  and underperforming four wheelers, with lots of bling.
A bit like a motorised apple peeler really.

----------


## John2b

> By the way ... you "quote" is a fine example of misleading. Surely Australia is a dumping ground for outdated ... well almost everything.

  Tell that to Volkswagen and Hyundai, they are the ones saying it. 
And, glad you think that is OK. I don't. And it's all happened as a result of Howard's introduction neo-conservative politics - which now afflicts both sides of mainstream politics equally. Decades later Australia is reaping what Howard sowed, and falling down the scale in international comparisons of income, equality, health and happiness, not to mention internet speed; where we once up with Japan and South Korea, at the end of the LNC's rollout of the NBN we are now down between Estonia and Serbia!

----------


## Marc

Sure we have fallen behind, and missed opportunities. Who is at fault is debatable and speculative. hindsight view and all that.
One thing is set in stone. Electric cars will not change a iota in our future course. We as a nation have very little say in our destiny anyway. Our role is way too dependent and weak.
"Special" de-nucleated submarine a prime example. 
"Neo-conservative" is just as bad as neo anything else in present day politics.
It's not which side of politics that matters. It is the quality of the man and women that make a nation. 
Politicians know that too well, why do you think they keep on polluting the gene pool with produce from every shithole in the world? 
PS
Your way to reply to an observation that in fact agrees with you, with a straw man argument does not do you any favours.

----------


## r3nov8or

"Toyota is about to roll out the first of 15 pure-electric cars to supplement its hybrid range. But the world’s biggest automaker has warned not every vehicle on the planet can switch to pure electric power."  https://www.caradvice.com.au/946173/...lectric-power/

----------


## Bart1080

....Interesting when there is a bit of hysteria on what happened as opposed to the facts  :Smilie:  
This vehicle wasn't on auto pilot and didn't have FSD (Full self driving) installed. 
So is anyone guess as to why there wasn't a driver in the drivers seat.
Maybe they were under the influence of something and decided to jump into the passenger or back seat???  https://esdnews.com.au/fatal-tesla-c...utopilot-mode/

----------


## phild01

So a Tesla car can drive itself without a driver in the driver's seat, sounds like they forgot about a seat pressure sensor!

----------


## John2b

> Why do people buy electric cars? "Because they are idiots" would be my comment...

   
I've just come back from our quarterly trip to the city to stock up on provisions. The trip made me appreciate just how good this electric car is to drive in traffic. Electric cars are extremely response with absolutely no acceleration lag (no gearbox or engine revs/torque hesitancy) and heaps of instant grunt for punting in front of other vehicles for quick lane changes, etc. Plus the interior is so smooth and quiet that you can easily listen to the radio and have a conversation with your partner without strain; just so stressless and easy to drive compared to even the best ICE vehicles. 
The achilles heel of our car with small 30kW battery is the practical range of ~170km. That means our first stop on arrival is for a coffee near the rapid charging station, where 15 minutes and $4 (excluding the coffee) later the 'tank' is full again. 
I've had the car for two years and 35,000 kilometres. Now with 65,000km on the clock, it has never been to a garage except to put air in the tires. The total 'fuel' expenditure and servicing costs excluding tires for the last 35,000km is ~$30, the electricity coming from our off-grid domestic solar power system and council owned solar powered charging network on the island installed in 2013. That has saved ~$6000 in fuel costs, which is expensive on the island, and another ~$1000 or more in servicing costs, which is ~$70 per week I can spend on something else. 
I bought the electric car for economic reasons (i.e. minimal recurrent expenditure and low cost of ownership) and it has exceeded expectations both economically and functionally. I had never even seen a Nissan Leaf before ours arrived, but it has to be one of the best 'idiotic' decisions I have ever made. The barrage of criticism about electric cars from people who don't own one and know little about them is a source of much amusement to people who do own one. Frankly being 'idiots' is a privilege we are pretty pleased about.

----------


## Marc

I wonder how the hydrogen battery can be adapted to electric cars?

----------


## Bart1080

> [/COLOR]That has saved ~$6000 in fuel costs, which is expensive on the island, and another ~$1000 or more in servicing costs, which is ~$70 per week I can spend on something else.
> I bought the electric car for economic reasons (i.e. minimal recurrent expenditure and low cost of ownership) and it has exceeded expectations both economically and functionally.

  Nice write up John. 
Out of interest, at what point do you estimate you may need to replace the battery given its already x years old.  Some say its half its capacity by year 5.  I guess that depends on how many charges/cycles its had but would be interesting to hear your experience particularly given you purchased the car that was already x years old. 
Lets tee up a meeting place in Melbourne for you to show me the benefits!   :Smilie: 
I'd personally would like to make the change for a short everyday driver.  Short being 40 to 120km every day....and it will happen when the stars align, the initial purchase price is more in my price bracket (< 5 to 10k) and I suspect over the next 5 to 10 years the technology will  get even better and cheaper once its reached a critical sales mass including battery life/cost of replacement. 
Maybe by that time, I'II have to convert my kombi I've earmarked for a restoration from ICE to EV?  
Its interesting its taken 25 years since I'd first seen Holden spruking an electric car or may have been a hybrid on the national news in 1995, never to be seen again and to now finally get to this point with many of the major brands moving in this direction.  No doubt we'll see exponential growth in sales, particularly in the cities. 
So in the mean time, I'II continue to sit on the side lines rubbishing the electric cars  :Smilie:

----------


## John2b

By making hydrogen batteries interchangeable with lithium batteries according to this organisation: HYDROGEN OFFICIAL FUEL CELL UNIVERSAL BATTERIES

----------


## Bart1080

Interesting article,  Logically, the governments should legislate for a set of standard battery pack formats/connections.  Its got enormous benefits for the end consumer from a cost and support perspective.     In addition, as EVs overtake IC vehicles in numbers, there will be thousands of battery failures, and fuel cells and batteries only have a finite life. Meaning that there will be millions of vehicles requiring servicing, where at the moment that would mean *dealing with hundreds of different energy pack formats.* Complicating the heck out of EV infrastructure sustainability and challenging the ultimate goal, being the creation of a circular economy. Competitive stakeholders (OEMs, OESs) are unlikely to want to cooperate, it will probably need additional legislation to make them even consider changing their ways.

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## John2b

Manufacturers could follow the ICE historical standardisation process, given the 100 years the industry has had to sort out standard engines, spark plugs, gearboxes, fuels, etc, to make them all interchangeable (sarcasm).

----------


## Bart1080

Yes, biggest bug bear.  Want an oil or fuel filter, which one of a 100 types, sizes do you require.  Surely as an industry they could have agreed on ~6 types ranging from small to large.  I'd hate the EV's to go down the same path as most other battery operated equipment with thousands of pack variations to essentially accommodate the same cells inside.

----------


## John2b

I bought a 3 year old 30 kWh battery Leaf at auction in Japan for $12,000 with 30,000km and battery state of health at 85%. It cost another $8,000 for freight, compliance, customs, GST, etc. I've driven 35,000km and the battery state of health is now 80%. Once the SOH gets down to 75%, the range will slowly begin to reduce, and that will eventually make the car impractical for me given my remote location. So I expect to drive it for another few years and then import a 40kW battery from a wreck (all of the Nissan batteries are physically interchangeable). The extra 25% of capacity of the 40kWh will make it more convenient and at the same time improve the ageing characteristic of the battery. Then I'll sell my old battery to the owner of an old 24kW Leaf who needs a battery and who will in all practical terms be getting a new battery will full range for that model. 
Now that I know a bit more about battery issues, I would only buy a used car/battery with +95% SOH. The condition of every individual one of the 96 cells in the Leaf's propulsion battery is available through the OBD2 port. When an individual cell fails in a battery pack, it is possible to replace that a cell with cell of matching SOH to the battery to restore the battery. That is commonly done in New Zealand where Leafs are quite popular. Wrecks are a popular source for good individual cell packs. 
The total lifetime number of kilometres you get out of a battery depends on both the battery capacity and the way it is used. Unfortunately the car I bought had only every had fast charges (daily in fact) and that is why the battery SOH had dropped to 85% in the first 30,000km. I almost always charge at home, not at fast charging stations, hence the slowing of battery ageing since I got the car. 
I understand that new Nissan Leafs have an 8 year 120,000km guarantee on the battery; if the battery SOH drops below 70% it will be replaced under warranty. There has been a trickle of batteries replaced by Nissan under warranty in Australia. There are old 24kWh battery Nissan Leafs from ~2011 still on the original battery with over 200,000km on the clock. 
Only around two thirds of the capacity of the battery is initially  used, so there is no impact on range until the SOH has dropped to <70%. When Tesla gave owners a range boost to escape California fires by an over the air firmware update, all they were doing is allowing the car battery to be more deeply discharged, but still nowhere near to completely empty. 
Owning a BEV is not an ALL or NOTHING situation. Most households have at least two vehicles and usually they are not exactly the same. I have both corded 240 volt tools and rechargeable battery tools. It's usually pretty obvious which tool is appropriate for a given job. As rechargeable tools have got better over the years, the corded tools are getting left more often on the shelf. When I go bush I take the diesel 4WD, not the BEV city car. I would love to have a BEV off-roader but I can't see that being practical anytime soon. I've needed to arrange for fuel dumps in remote locations but there isn't a way I know of to drop off a 44 of electrons.

----------


## Forrestmount

A few things tweak my interest with EV’s  
First one is they are very quiet, does this create issues in car parks etc where pedestrians are moving between cars?  
I have never driven an EV but I have driven old electric forklifts and the torque was amazing. I am guessing this is basically a given for any EV independent of the cost or model.   
The risk of batteries catching fire is the only real concern I have especially in a crash but is this valid concern or just feat of the unknown?  
o

----------


## John2b

I haven't run over any pedestrians yet, but sure, some people are caught unawares of your presence. As I posted above here #1387 in reality ICE cars are about ten times more likely to end up in a fireball thanks to liquid fuel igniting so easily in the presence of sparks.

----------


## Forrestmount

Thanks John  
If you are unaware of pedestrian issues is is not likely to be an issue. I often wonder what the world would sound like without the hum of the the ICE we will find out soon. 
I am not sure of the statistics given on ice verse ev’s in regard to fires as EV’s are on average much younger and don’t have issues with ageing wires.   
ro

----------


## r3nov8or

> ... I often wonder what the world would sound like without the hum of the the ICE
> ...

  You should have been in Melbourne during Stage 4 lockdown

----------


## John2b

> I am not sure of the statistics given on ice verse ev’s in regard to fires as EV’s are on average much younger and don’t have issues with ageing wires.

   Batteries are not really that flammable. Have you heard of house fires caused by laptops or mobile phones? In fact, who would dare put a phone in their pocket given the risk of lithium battery fires?

----------


## Forrestmount

> Batteries are not really that flammable. Have you heard of house fires caused by laptops or mobile phones? In fact, who would dare put a phone in their pocket given the risk of lithium battery fires?

  Great response  
We have a special charging area at work for recharging as we have had fires in the past. But I don’t know if these fires were the charger or the batteries. I did draw conclusions as the fires occurred at the same time as the airline announced a crackdown on battery packs. But this was an assumption based on coincidence only.  
It is entirely likely they are as safe as you say John  :Redface: )   
PaT

----------


## r3nov8or

> Batteries are not really that flammable. Have you heard of ... fires caused by laptops ...? ...

  Yes. In recent past deployments of laptops, staff of a certain major Australian company had been advised not to transport their laptops in Sleep mode due to fires in company cars. This was in the lithium battery era. Rare, and the requirement was likely highly precautionary, but it has happened

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## John2b

> Rare ... but it has happened

  Sure, and why souvenir book matches were banned years ago. Of course Australian companies were happy for everyone to take jerrycans of petrol with them in company cars in the fossil energy era, not! And why gas cigarette lighters have been banned on flights for decades, not that anyone took any notice of the ban.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Sure, and why souvenir book matches were banned years ago. Of course Australian companies were happy for everyone to take jerrycans of petrol with them in company cars in the fossil energy era, not! And why gas cigarette lighters have been banned on flights for decades, not that anyone took any notice of the ban.

  Why so bitter and twisted? Sheesh!

----------


## r3nov8or

"Huawei has launched its first car, marketed as part of a collaboration with auto brand Seres – offering more than 1000km of range and a sub-five-second 0-100km/h time."  https://www.caradvice.com.au/946470/...021-seres-sf5/

----------


## John2b

> Why so bitter and twisted? Sheesh!

  Just saying things like they are. Perhaps being an 'idiot' subject of this thread doesn't help; by all means amuse yourself by reading from the start.

----------


## Marc

Why do people buy electric cars? "Because they are idiots" would be my comment, but no, let's be honest, they deep down believe that they have a moral obligation towards "the environment". So they ignore and look the other way of the hundreds of components that pollute the many other countries that manufacture them, ignore the price tag that makes it an impossible proposition, ignore it's enormous limitations and trade ins, and then ... they run out of juice. Not to worry, there is always the generator.   
This was my tongue in cheek opening post, and I stand by it.  
The problem with any debate that involves so called renewables, electric cars and environmental issues, is that they are not technical discussions...   (edited out: climate trolling)  
If you want to have a debate about excavators, different sizes, attachment, brands, and the latest wave of crap chinese knock offs, you have a technical discussion. I am a Takeuchi man, best excavator on the planet.
Can you have a similar debate on electric cars?   
With such a background, discussions are far from technical and slip way too easily in the electric vs petrol and how the bad capitalists have had 100 years and the poor electric beggar is just starting to pollute just now etc etc etc. 
Let's face it, as much as electric cars are interesting animals and will inevitably rise in numbers, they exist due to commercial and political interest, not to make the planet a better place. So any allusion to the real or imaginary sins of the petrol or (god forbid) diesel vehicles and their evil manufacturers and marketeers, is pure political garbage. 
But I concede that deep down, if you look and scrutinise with a powerful magnifying glass and LED torch, you can probably find someone who is interested in them purely for technical and financial reasons, if his peculiar location and activity makes him the exception to the vast majority.
You never know.
For me it is Takeuchi all the way.  :Smilie:

----------


## John2b

The manufacture of any vehicle uses resources. There's nothing that makes BEV cars worse than ICE cars when you take 'the whole of life' resource use into consideration. 
The irony off the picture of the BMW being charged by a generator is that the BMW will make more efficient use of the fuel consumed by the generator than an ICE vehicle using the fuel, because an ICE vehicle's engine is almost never running anywhere near the ideal load and revs for efficient energy conversion. 
That's one reason why diesel-electric is the dominant locomotive design, the other being the elimination of a gearbox and having full torque at zero revs, also a big advantage for the drivability of electric road vehicles.

----------


## Moondog55

Hydrogen turbine/ electric will be the dominant technology for heavy transport in the future. Well it will be if we decide to be smart

----------


## Marc

Rubbish. 
The petrol used in that piffy generator would go a long way to outstrip any of the many inefficiency of that system if in a modern petrol car, and not converted to electricity with huge losses and then stored in batteries with more losses only to turn into motion with yet again more losses
And locomotives have diesel generators and electric motors simply because there is no way to make that size gearbox in an acceptable weight. Locomotives diesel engines don't run a generator to charge batteries, they run multiple electric motors directly connected and the load on the diesel is variable according to speed and load of the train they are pulling, like any other diesel engine pulling a load. The combustion in a diesel locomotive is as efficient and as inefficient as it is in a truck or a boat. You only need to watch them take off and see the plume of black soot at take off and listen to the acceleration required to get the ac or dc motors going.
Once they are at constant speed, the engine combustion is near optimal, not because of the generator, in fact there are substantial losses there too, but because they are usually in rural settings running long distances, just like a truck or a ship. 
For a disel-electric system to work in a start and stop situation like urban train, there would be the need for a third element, batteries, introducing yet another source of losses.
But since you are an engineer, I am sure you are aware of this.

----------


## phild01

Marc, I have always understood the gen sets in diesel electric make more efficient energy conversion than a a diesel only locomotive.

----------


## Marc

Yes and no. To begin, diesel only locomotive are a rarity and always on the small side, so hard to compare. 
If diesel electric is more efficient than diesel only, why don't all trucks and busses use it? Why not all cars? 
The answer is not simple. To get the energy transformed by the diesel engine into the wheels for motion, one can use mechanical gearboxes or electric motors powered by a generator. Both incur heavy losses. 
But the scale is the key. Diesel electric is more efficient in large scale, mechanical or hydraulic is more efficient in relatively smaller scale.  
To say that diesel electric is more efficient, implies that it is more efficient because of the use of electric motors, yet that is not true. It is more efficient simply because as the scale increases, the losses from mechanical gearboxes increase exponentially. Somewhere above 1000 HP, diesel electric is more practical 
However the reason outlined by John that diesel electric is more efficient because the diesel engine works at an optimal ratio and converts fuel into energy more efficiently is disingenuous, because unless the diesel engine is charging batteries and running always at the same speed, the normal diesel electric that does not have a battery bank, has to accelerate like any other truck or bus does. The only difference is the way it transmit energy to the wheels. 
The way an electric motor can produce full torque at zero revs, makes it ideal for a diesel engine that has a limited range of 300 to 900 revs, and that would need dozens of gears, to apply full torque to the wheels at different speeds. 
Both the gearbox and the generator/electric motor, are energy pits, and each has its applications. And their range of application do not overlap. https://youtu.be/nxfb78LcWto?t=104

----------


## John2b

> But since you are an engineer, I am sure you are aware of this.

  Yes Marc, I started a Bachelors Degree in Electrical Engineering, later changing to Electronic Engineering, and that is why I know my post _is_ correct. I finally specialised in Electro-acoustic Engineering in which field I have been an Australia-wide consultant, but all engineering is based on the same laws of physics, the most notable being the law of conservation of energy which applies directly to energy transformations, such as motion to chemical energy in liquid fuel or electricity stored in batteries. 
There is 39MJ of energy stored in a litre of petrol or diesel that is released in reciprocating engine. 39Mj is the same amount of energy as 10.8kWh. An electric car like my Nissan Leaf gets 8 km/kWh, equivalent to better than 85kpl of energy equivalent liquid fuel. When I run my Honda generator (for which the engine is tuned and runs at maximum energy conversion efficiency) it uses 3.1 litres of fuel to produce 5 kWh of electricity, enough for the Leaf to cover 40 kilometres. Even after allowing 15% loss for the charger and motor controller, it gets better milage than a typical car would if it burnt the fuel my generator used. 
Look at the losses in an ICE vehicle: around 88% of the energy fed into the engine is lost as heat in the radiator and exhaust, noise, valve train, pumping losses, generator, ancillary pumps, torque converter, transmission, etc. It's no wonder a petrol or diesel car gets around 1km/kWh of energy compared to an electric car getting 8km/kWh, or that the petrol/electric Toyota Prius, which runs its ICE at optimum load to charge a small battery that runs the electric propulsion motor, gets better than 25kpl.

----------


## John2b

> Marc, I have always understood the gen sets in diesel electric make more efficient energy conversion than a a diesel only locomotive.

   This quote from a former engineer at GM's Electro Motive Division puts it better than I can: Mechanical transmissions cannot match the efficiency of the best electrical transmissions.   Except when (a mechanical transmission is) direct coupled and operating at the ideal engine speed with no slippage through the transmission, the diesel electric is more efficient, because it allows the diesel to operate at the most efficient speed for a particular horsepower output, instead of the speed determined by the transmission and the speed of the train (rotation of the wheels).  Using the gen-set approach, a diesel electric is even more efficient, since only enough engines to supply the needed horsepower need operate at a particular time.

----------


## Moondog55

Where's the Atomic batteries promised by all the Science Fiction writers of the 1950s?
An EV with an unlimited range.

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## Marc

> I started a Bachelor's Degree in Electrical Engineering, later changing to Electronic Engineering, and that is why I know my post _is correct._

  I am happy for you that you finished your degree, yet such does not make you right. Clearly you are having a bad hair day  :Smilie:  
This is the situation: We have two cars: one is the "stupid" electric BMW stranded with no charge ... and we will introduce a Toyota Corolla for comparison. 
Both will require the same energy to travel the same distance if they are of equivalent weight. 
We give each car 5 litres of petrol. One will go straight into the Toyota Corolla that is new and ready to go. Efficiency 30%. 
The other 5L will go into a little screamer Briggs and Stratton that needs to churn a third class generator (efficiency 13%) , push electricity through long cables, charge batteries (charge 80% discharge 90%)and finally end in the electric motor. (88% efficiency) 
In your parallel universe, the energy stored in the 5l of petrol that goes in the generator, actually give more energy than the petrol going into the corolla, despite the cascading losses starting with a petrol motor that is clearly less efficient than the corolla, followed by a string of other losses.
Fanciful, but the first law of thermodynamics applies even in that particular universe.
Of course if you can dominate the skill of teleportation, things may go differently. Until then, I am afraid you are wrong. Engineer degree or not.  
As for the diesel electric system used in locomotives, I would be happy to answer if you actually read my post and answer it's points directly without evasions or quotes.
 You are wrong on that account as well. Diesel electric systems with no batteries, vary the power output by opening up the fuel injection or reducing it, the diesel engine varies the revs up and down with the corresponding variations in efficiency. The rest is nonsense or is talking about a different system and not a diesel electric locomotive. 
For whoever is interested, this is how a diesel electric locomotive works. https://science.howstuffworks.com/tr...locomotive.htm

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## Bros

Nothing beats the smell and sounds of walking through a running shed at a steam locomotive depot.

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## Moondog55

Good alternators should be about 75 to 80% efficient and to quote your own link the diesel engine runs at a constant speed Marc

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## John2b

> We give each car 5 litres of petrol.

   The problem with your statement is that you have the efficiencies the wrong way around. An ICE engine propelling a passenger vehicle will struggle to convert 15% of the liquid fuel consumed into energy used for propulsion. There are lots of reasons for this, the main one being that the engine is rarely, if ever, at optimum speed and load for efficiency of energy conversion for very long. It also has many parasitic loads and needs to burn fuel even when idling, coasting and braking. Contrast that with a BEV electric motor that does not have parasitic loads, nor use energy to idle or coast, and actually recovers energy into the battery when braking. 
Compare the circumstances of an engine in a vehicle with the ' little screamer ' engine, which is in fact running continuously at, or very near, peak Otto cycle efficiency, and not losing energy into a heap of parasitic loads - there is no auxiliary generator, water pump, oil pump, etc, etc attached, just the alternator load. The alternator driven by the ' little screamer ' would be very primitive if it didn't have an efficiency above 95%, even a very basic cheapie is highly efficient, so the total efficiency of even a basic petrol genset will be around 25% or more. 
The charge/discharge efficiency of lithium batteries of the type used in cars is ~98-99%, not the 72% (80% x 90%) you quote, and the efficiency of the traction controller/motor is typically in the 92 - 95% range, and sometimes higher. 
The Nissan Leaf is at the bottom of the pile of BEVs when it comes to efficiency yet it is still at least on par with a similar ICE vehicle for fuel efficiency when charged from a basic petrol generator. I know this I have actually done it a couple of times. I know how many kilometres of range I get from the 6 litre fuel tank on my genset. If you have charged an electric car from a petrol or diesel generator and have different data, please post it.

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## Marc

What nonsense, where do you guys get your facts?  
This magic "constant speed" is supposed to make a B&S more efficient than a fuel injected new Toyota? Are you kidding? And just in case someone missed this, both cars are of the same size and must travel the same distance, so they will use the exact same amount of energy. 
The source of energy for both cars comes from the same amount of fuel. One is converted by a modern fuel injected engine, the other by a splattering carbureted little toy engine, that has to pass it's litle excuse of a work, to generator and batteries and electric motor ... come ooooon! 
Regardless ... your engineer instinct should have kicked in way before you typed this and the previous post. 
We are comparing an ICE in ordinary circumstances with a system composed from a ICE, coupled to a generator connected with long cables to a battery that in turn will power an electric motor. If you want me to believe the latter is more efficient than the former, because "the B&S runs at constant speed," you have something else coming.  
Even if we disregard all the multiple and severe losses in the system after the generaotr, clearly the toyota engine is more efficient than the B&S and so your assumption is wrong from the start. 
As for the locomotive: The throttle control has eight positions, plus an idle position. Each of the throttle positions is called a "*notch*." Notch 1 is the slowest speed, and notch 8 is the highest speed. To get the train moving, the engineer releases the brakes and puts the throttle into notch 1. In this General Motors EMD 710 series engine, putting the throttle into notch 1 engages a set of *contactors* (giant electrical relays). These contactors hook the main generator to the traction motors. Each notch engages a different combination of contactors, producing a different voltage. Some combinations of contactors put certain parts of the generator winding into a series configuration that results in a higher voltage. Others put certain parts in parallel, resulting in a lower voltage. The traction motors produce more power at higher voltages. As the contactors engage, the computerized engine controls adjust the *fuel injectors* to start producing more engine power. The *brake control* varies the air pressure in the brake cylinders to apply pressure to the brake shoes. At the same time, it blends in the dynamic braking, using the motors to slow the train down as well    Above is a brief description of how the train accelerates or decelerates. The generator in a locomotive is not like your town generator that runs at 50 hz regardless because it is subject to relatively constant load. The locomotive has a huge variation in the load and this reflects in the throttle that the conductor needs to change when wants to go faster or slower. The generator can run at various speeds as opposed to the town generator that needs to stay at constant speed to put out constant voltage. 
The magic "constant speed" when desirable for efficiency, is bogus in this case and the reality is that diesel engines in locomotives are efficient due to size design and the fact that the revolution range is small, from 250 idle and 900 max. 
The way the power of the diesel engine is transferred to the wheels is not the reason for its efficiency, it just happens to be the most feasible way to do it. A much better way would be like in large bulk carriers that have the shaft of the engine directly linked to the shaft of the ship and that need to stop the engine and start in reverse to stop. Not very practical for a train but more efficient because it eliminates the losses from generator and motor. _Losses_ not gains. 
The diesel electric locomotive is a large 3 to 4000HP diesel engine, some 2 stroke some 4 stroke that drives the train. The diese lengine needs to go through different ratio to get the train moving and rise the speed to the top speed. Once at cruising speed, the driver will try to keep the revs at the most efficient revs, but can push it higher or keep it lower according to need, just like in a ship. No "constant speed" to be seen anywhere. 
There are boats and small ships that run diesel engine generators to charge battery banks that drive electric motors to move the ship. They are expensive contraptions that allegedly are more efficient due to the magic constant load on the diesel generator. Are they more efficient? Depend who you ask. If you ask the owner who has to pay for the battery bank replacement, you will get a resounding no. (They do try to mask the bullmanure by having solar panels and sails and mandating that the crew farts always pointing at the stern. )  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> And just in case someone missed this, both cars are of the same size and must travel the same distance, so they will use the exact same amount of energy.

  In the real world a vehicles start and stop for intersections and traffic lights, etc. Under many conditions the ICE continues to consume energy when the BEV does not. To slow an ICE vehicle brakes convert kinetic energy into waste heat in the brake disks which is lost to the environment. When a BEV brakes, most of the kinetic energy is converted back into electricity used to recharge the energy stored in the battery. So the notion that the two types of vehicle use the same amount of energy supplied to the vehicleto cover the same distance is patently incorrect. 
Computer engine management has dramatically improved internal combustion engine conversion efficiency under light loads and non-ideal rpms, however the peak efficiency of the Otto cycle in an ICE is set by physics, not whether a motor has fuel injection.

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## Marc

You said that the petrol used in the generator charging the BMW would make the electric car go further than the same petrol used in a similar ICE car. That is without a question potentially false. If you now want to introduce traffic lights and the driver that misess an intersection and stops to go to the loo, well, very funny I suppose.
If you want to debate petrol engines that are carbureted vs injected, be my guest.  
Every petrol or diesel engine has a particular load and engine revs combination that is ideal for said engine. Most drivers with minimal experience know what speed their car is more fuel efficient. If you depart from that either up or down, fuel consumption increases.
The statement that diesel electric is more efficient due to constant revs, is also intrinsically false, because the diesel engine in a locomotive goes through constant changes in revs, to adjust current output and match the load. A diesel locomotive will struggle up a hill and open up fuel injection not to lose ground, resulting in a much higher fuel burn just to catch up. That is how engines work, and under peak load, any engine is less efficient. At cruise speed and ideal conditions all engines, petrol or diesel, manual gearbox, automatic or electric transmission, have a sweet spot where they excel. It has nothing to do with the type of transmission.   
An industrial or domestic generator, is set to work at constant speed purely because it needs to produce constant voltage as opposed to the locomotive that works with a range of voltage. The generator controller set at 50 hz when subject to higher loads, will open up the fuel intake and reduce when the load drops. Does it mean that constant speed/revs makes it more efficient? No, it will be more efficient at a certain range and load that depends of the engine and generator build. pass the ideal capacity and you waste fuel, run ad low load and waste more fuel. Just like any other engine.

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## UseByDate

> Where's the Atomic batteries promised by all the Science Fiction writers of the 1950s?
> An EV with an unlimited range.

  Nuclear powered batteries have existed for many decades. Not super large I grant you but they do exist. I started work as an apprentice at Westland Helicopters in 1964 and after six months in the apprentice school and three months on the production line got transferred to Saunders Roe for six months. Saunders Roe was owned by Westland Helicopters and had a production facility co-located with Westland Helicopters producing Betalights. My job was to design and build laboratory equipment.   https://www.betalight.nl/home/history.html

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## UseByDate

Government says naaaa! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLflYkgnNBY

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## John2b

An engine has one revolution rate at which the energy conversion is most efficient. It is often the RPM near or slightly above the peak torque RPM. If the engine is producing a fixed output, say 50% of its rated output, it can also produce that output at higher or lower RPM than the most efficient - at the penalty of energy conversion efficiency! 
Likewise an engine has a load which at the most efficient RPM that will result in the maximum conversion of fuel energy into kinetic energy, usually near 100% of its rated output. The engine can produce less power at this most efficient RPM, but again at the penalty of energy conversion efficiency. 
A properly designed small generator (i.e. an engine who's output is matched the the load presented by the generator) is operating at both its maximum efficiency RPM and at its maximum efficiency load. Under those conditions the addition of a sophisticate fuel injection system doesn't add much to efficiency, because even a simple carburettor that is designed specifically for one set of conditions can be made to work quite well. 
Of course the previous sentence does not apply to variable speed, variable load engines, like a gensets used intermittently on a building site, for example. Nor does it apply to ICE vehicles where the engine is running at variable speeds and variable loads. There are huge gains using sophisticated engine management systems for variable speed, variable load engines. But friction losses in the engine still dominate energy consumption at low engine loads like idling, coasting and cruising, plus all of the ancillary loads that an ICE needs in a vehicle in order to operate consume _proportionally_ more energy at low loads. That is why an ICE in a passenger vehicle will struggle to achieve 15% conversion efficiency of liquid fuel into kinetic energy in real world on-road use. 
Large diesel electric locomotives often have two, three or four diesel engines so that in cruise one or more engines can be turned off, and the remaining engine(s) loaded for greater efficiency. Of course the main benefit of the diesel electric transmission is to completely decouple engine RPM from wheel RPM, using AC inverter technology. The frequency of the generator, which is locked to the engine rpm, is converted by an inverter to the frequency the electric motors need to match the RPM the wheels are turning at; then the Diesel engine, the generator and the electric motors are all able to operate at peak efficiency. This is similar to the principle of inverter technology used in air conditioners and microwaves to maximise energy conversion efficiency.

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## Marc

Mm ... yes ... therefore ... ?

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## Marc

Tesla - China honeymoon is over.  https://youtu.be/5RiZf6t4nG4

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## Bros

> Tesla - China honeymoon is over.  https://youtu.be/5RiZf6t4nG4

  No surprises

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## Marc

What is surprising how seemingly intelligent company CEO keep on making the same mistakes, and assume they will be the exception.

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## John2b

I don't agree with all of the sentiments in this video; consider it 'balance' to Marc's video linked above. It does contain some truths that our guvmint's can't or won't swallow, and where their policies or lack of them runs contrary to the views of between 70% and 80% of the electorate Australia wide. And no need to set aside an afternoon to watch it, the clip is only a couple of minutes long!  https://youtu.be/fLflYkgnNBY

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## Marc

What a load of merda

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## UseByDate

Lol  :Smilie:

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## Bros

> I don't agree with all of the sentiments in this video; consider it 'balance' to Marc's video linked above. It does contain some truths that our guvmint's can't or won't swallow, and where their policies or lack of them runs contrary to the views of between 70% and 80% of the electorate Australia wide. And no need to set aside an afternoon to watch it, the clip is only a couple of minutes long!  https://youtu.be/fLflYkgnNBY

  Plagarising UseByDate post?

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## John2b

> Plagarising UseByDate post?

  Oops - missed that! So it seems did Marc.

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## Marc

Beautiful sound of the 2 stroke Detroit Diesel in a diesel electric locomotive and it's vastly variable load and revs.   https://youtu.be/ciJqIxLdjyQ

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## Bedford

*Victorian government plans to dramatically boost the sale of electric cars by 2030*  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-...cars/100108626   

> Mr Clutterbuck wanted to do his bit to save the planet by buying an electric car.(ABC News: Richard Willingham)

  Good for you Mister Clutterbuck, but,    

> Posted by *John2b*, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.

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## John2b

> Good for you Mister Clutterbuck, but,

  As best as I can reckon the point of no return for maintaining an environment conducive to human civilisation for the next few generations was around 1980, maybe earlier. Planet Earth will see the back of the human race, electric cars or not, and continue on around the sun for a few more billion years, probably not even slightly affected by the absence of the current human plague. 
Elon Musk will be being driven around Mars by his autopilot electric car long before then, so it's worth Tesla keeping BEV development going for the time being, but I'll keep not buying Tesla shares. For now I will keep driving my electric car simply because it costs less for me to _own_ and is a _superior_ car than an equivalent ICE car.
And quite likely people who don't own a BEV will continue to 'know' how bad they are.  :Roflmao2:

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## r3nov8or

> ... For now I will keep driving my electric car simply because it costs less for me to _own_ and *is a superior car* than an equivalent ICE car.
> ...

  Whaaaaat!!? Superior car? What makes a new Nissan Leaf, costing $53k-$65k, superior to just about any other new car in that price range? Performance? Comfort? Range? Driving dynamics? Carrying capacity? Towing capacity? No. But it does have a battery and is bloody ugly.   
Ahhh Wait! I know! It's quiet. That must be it!  :Smilie:

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## Marc

> Whaaaaat!!? Superior car? What makes a Nissan Leaf, costing $53k-$65k, superior to just about any other new car in that price range? Performance? Comfort? Range? Driving dynamics? Carrying capacity? Towing capacity? No. But it does have a battery and is bloody ugly. 
> Ahhh Wait! I know! It's quiet. That must be it!

  Consider that John bought his Leaf for a fraction of the new price and can drive comfortably because he lives on an island, and recharges at home or I believe the shopping center for a pittance. I would be talking up my electric car too in such circumstances. 
What needs considering in the electric car market, is the unashamed profiteering by manufacturers and sellers leaning on governments to boost their outrageously overpriced contraptions, with pretenses of (non existing) environmental advantages. It is one more collusion between governments and industry the likes we have seen repeatedly in the last 100 years or more. Nothing to see here. 
"The future" as we all know, is immersed in the fog of change, and those so eager to predict it may or may not fall on their faces. The driver as it is the case once more, for the supporters, advocates and assorted cheerleaders, is not experience, knowledge or scientific acumen, but ideology, preconception and bias, mounted on hidden agendas and foreign interest. 
In the past it was the steam engine first, and then the diesel engine to drive industry. Diesel is still driving the industry today and it is only behind nuclear energy that, ironically, is just the heat to drive steam turbines, so not too far from the modest beginnings. Learning how to produce steam from a volcano would probably be more intelligent than using nuclear crap.  
COnsidering that the electric motor is just the last cog in the machine and that it is completely dependant from the power plants that drive them, to consider electric cars a fundamental and landmark change, is rather absurd. The electric washing machine has probably had more impact than the electric car will. 
New sources of energy is what will mean a real landmark in human history like steam and diesel was. 
I wait for such news with eagerness. 
And screw Tesla and the rest of the electric contraptions. 
PS
Still awaiting for the cars that were supposed to fly in the year 2000 ...  :Frown:  https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-our-pred...oughou-5908600

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## Moondog55

Isn't Geothermal heat driving steam turbines big in places like New Zealand and Iceland???

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## UseByDate

> PS
> Still awaiting for the cars that were supposed to fly in the year 2000 ...

  Done! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL4Gf2ydq2U

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## John2b

Marc is correct, I drive an electric car to save money. I imported a BEV from Japan. I could have imported an ICE at a similar saving on local purchase price, but that wouldn't save money on running costs - der! 
Don't forget that fossil fuel companies and ICE manufacturers never profiteered. They only do everything selflessly for the good of others even if that means spending $trillions of guvmint money annually through industry subsidies worldwide.

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## Pulse

Ive been reading some of these posts. 
Why does everyone try to force their opinion onto everyone else.  
Buy the car you want and let everyone else buy the car they want. No one needs to justify their decisions. ICE drivers arent trying to kill the planet and BEV drivers arent trying necessarily to save it. 
ICE vs BEV arent religions or political parties or football teams. 
If someone wants me to buy a new cordless drill to replace a corded one I might say yes if my old one needs replacing or no if it still does the job. simple.

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## METRIX

> Ive been reading some of these posts. 
> Why does everyone try to force their opinion onto everyone else.  
> Buy the car you want and let everyone else buy the car they want. No one needs to justify their decisions. ICE drivers arent trying to kill the planet and BEV drivers arent trying necessarily to save it. 
> ICE vs BEV arent religions or political parties or football teams. 
> If someone wants me to buy a new cordless drill to replace a corded one I might say yes if my old one needs replacing or no if it still does the job. simple.

  Finally the only post that makes any sense  :Biggrin:

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## Bart1080

> ICE vs BEV aren’t religions or political parties or football teams.

  Ahhh, but what friggin football team do you support and what mode of transport do you use to get there!!!!  :Sneaktongue:  :Biggrin:

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## METRIX

> Ahhh, but what friggin football team do you support and what mode of transport do you use to get there!!!!

  What is it with football and Victoria, I swear all my Victorian mates do, it either talk about football, or go out for coffee and only talk about football.
In Sydney we don't talk too much footy as we have a lot of other things to do than just go to the footy  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:  
Is there nothing else to do in Victoria except talk about footy ?

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## Bart1080

> Is there nothing else to do in Victoria except talk about footy ?

  ....Metrix, really!! ...are you even an Aussie?  of coarse there is, what's the best beverage to drink whilst watching the footy and did "Bluey" bring the home made salami  :Smilie:  
Funny thing is I'm a very casual follower, watch only a handful of match's but are flogging the future son in law at the footy tipping this year...at the moment.

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## r3nov8or

> What is it with football and Victoria, I swear all my Victorian mates do, it either talk about football, or go out for coffee and only talk about football.
> In Sydney we don't talk too much footy as we have a lot of other things to do than just go to the footy   
> Is there nothing else to do in Victoria except talk about footy ?

  It's just that we prefer the footy actually worth talking about

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## Marc

> Ive been reading some of these posts. 
> Why does everyone try to force their opinion onto everyone else.  
> Buy the car you want and let everyone else buy the car they want. No one needs to justify their decisions. ICE drivers arent trying to kill the planet and BEV drivers arent trying necessarily to save it. 
> ICE vs BEV arent religions or political parties or football teams. 
> If someone wants me to buy a new cordless drill to replace a corded one I might say yes if my old one needs replacing or no if it still does the job. simple.

  In theory you should be correct. In reality you know you are not. Anything that is remotely related to the environment _is_ a religion/political party/football team. Fact. 
Far from being a simple consumer decision, some of the electric car users, just like recycling or composting, see themselves as something special ... not only that, but resent those who don't dwell on the same fringe. Not everyone,  sure, but it is clearly a common trend. When this fringe of loonies manages to infiltrate government decisions, I take exception. 
The 'common good' invoked by the renewables big con and the electric-marvel.com is no different from the common good promoted by the Spanish inquisition.

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## johnc

> In theory you should be correct. In reality you know you are not. Anything that is remotely related to the environment _is_ a religion/political party/football team. Fact. 
> Far from being a simple consumer decision, some of the electric car users, just like recycling or composting, see themselves as something special ... not only that, but resent those who don't dwell on the same fringe. Not everyone,  sure, but it is clearly a common trend. When this fringe of loonies manages to infiltrate government decisions, I take exception. 
> The 'common good' invoked by the renewables big con and the electric-marvel.com is no different from the common good promoted by the Spanish inquisition.

   I think you just outed yourself Marc

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## Marc

Free charging stations everyone! Yea  :2thumbsup:  https://youtu.be/9S4C_jAzcRQ

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## UseByDate

> Free charging stations everyone! Yea  https://youtu.be/9S4C_jAzcRQ

  Road tax tax for flying cars. What next? :Wink:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WF-niy9_Fc

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## METRIX

> Road tax tax for flying cars. What next?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WF-niy9_Fc

  They still have to land  :Smilie:   :Smilie:   :Smilie:

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## Bedford

> They still have to land

  So then they'd hit you with land tax as well I suppose.

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## John2b

There's more than $10billion in fossil energy subsidies in the recently announced federal budget. That's about $10,000 per oil burner vehicle sold annually, or more than 100 times the total subsidies given to electric vehicles. Australia needs a political spin tax; we could all retire as tax exempt millionaires.

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## phild01

> There's more than $10billion in fossil energy subsidies in the recently announced federal budget. That's about $10,000 per oil burner vehicle sold annually, or more than 100 times the total subsidies given to electric vehicles. Australia needs a political spin tax; we could all retire as tax exempt millionaires.

  John, I might need some explanation as nearly all of what you say comes from the fuel tax credit scheme, yes!?

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## PhilT2

Some people need an electric car.
Man in Florida filled up containers of petrol and put them in the back of his Hummer, got back in and went to light up a smoke before driving off..... https://crooksandliars.com/2021/05/f...mer-4-5-gallon

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## Marc

This is Canada, but the usual suspects copy each other to a t. https://www.energycitizens.ca/2021/0...uel-subsidies/   

> Once a month, an activist group comes forward with a report, grasping at straws, trying to prove that somehow Canada’s natural gas and oil industry is heavily subsidized. They bundle in all sorts of government spending and call it a ‘subsidy’  This month, we have noted anti-development organization, Environmental Defense, releasing a ‘report’ claiming that the government subsidized the natural gas and oil sector to the tune of $18 billion in 2020.

   As for PhilT ... nice find. I suppose the word Hummer, Florida, and Gallons caught your eye. Do you have an app for that?
Would it be as attractive if it was a Vespa, driven by a Mexican smoking a durry that caught fire?  Electric cars are way safer, they never catch fire. 
Oh well ... up I go to the servo, to fill up with 31 gallons of diesel in the 4wd, and fill up my 44 gallons drum for the boat, tied up inthe box trailer, also full with feed for the horses. 
It's a hard life!   :Smilie:  
PS
Do they make electric horses to avoid their lethal farts?  :Question:

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## John2b

According to this morning's Sydney Morning Herald Scott Morrison will announce today a $2.4 billion subsidy for Australia’s two remaining oil refineries, comprised of a ~$2.1 billion, per litre subsidy and ~$300 million for major infrastructure upgrades. The government will also work with refineries on their rollout of future fuels, such as electric vehicle charging... 
No... I didn't make this up!

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## John2b

> John, I might need some explanation as nearly all of what you say comes from the fuel tax credit scheme, yes!?

   I just read the headline and a few lines. It's is probably half true. In any case a fuel tax credit is a subsidy, pure and simple, just like the $ billions paid by govmint for healthcare for people with respiratory illnesses caused by ICE emissions is a subsidy, as the money comes from _our_ wallets, not the fossil energy industry's revenues.

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## Moondog55

I get the need for the ability to maintain a strategic reserve of fuel, it is about a decade late tho.

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## phild01

> In any case a fuel tax credit is a subsidy, pure and simple

  Plenty will disagree with that.

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## Marc

> I get the need for the ability to maintain a strategic reserve of fuel, it is about a decade late tho.

  Not at all! We have plenty of Eveready batteries. We can fling them to the chinese using slingshots ( made in china)  :Smilie:

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## PhilT2

Strategic reserve....

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## Bedford

> According to this morning's Sydney Morning Herald Scott Morrison will announce today a $2.4 billion subsidy for Australias two remaining oil refineries, comprised of a ~$2.1 billion per litre

  Goodness, that much?   

> No... I didn't make this up!

  But you posted it......

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## Marc

Whoever things that protecting fuel production and reserves is a "subsidy" needs his head examined.
Is the Navy, a subsidy to fisheries?
Curry imports a subsidy to toilet paper manufacturers? 
By the way, if electric vehicles had any relevance to everyday life and if defence had any use for electric vehicles, they would get help to stay viable too.  
The way it is today, they are nothing but an unnecessary, superfluous, feel good gadget.

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## r3nov8or

I saw the new Volvo ad last night. They are going full electric to tackle "our biggest test" - Climate Change! (iceberg melting into the ocean and all)

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## Moondog55

Funny I thought that Defence were using electric vehicles for many small purposes around some very expensive hardware. I must be mistaken

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## Marc

I love it.
The atmosphere  contains 0.04% CO2 ... 97% made by nature. 3% by humans. Of that 3%, Australia contributes 1.5%, that is Australia contributes 0.045% of anthropogenic CO2 
So that is mm 0.000018% of total CO2 is made by us ... yes exactly. We must all drive electric volvo or else ... the sky is falling ... aaaaaah  
And if batteries need protecting for strategic needs, I am sure they will be. As it is now, they have gargantuan grants and subsidies just because they are saving the planet from mmm what exactly ?

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## Marc

> Funny I thought that Defence were using electric vehicles for many small purposes around some very expensive hardware. I must be mistaken

   You are mistaken Moon, and you are being facetious. If you think Defence needs to secure supply of batteries, you should suggest this to Peter Dutton.  The lack of reserves of fuel and storage capacity is criminal, and any step to restore some of that is welcome and should be free of partisan rubbish.

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## Bedford

> Prime Minister Scott Morrison has announced a $2 billion fuel security  package aimed at keeping Australias last remaining oil refineries live  while saving 1200 jobs.

   

> The security package will involve a 1.8 cent per litre support payment  for refined fuel in Australia over the next nine years

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## John2b

> By the way, if electric vehicles had any relevance to everyday life and if defence had any use for electric vehicles, they would get help to stay viable too.

  The armed forces are on the ball; electrification of military vehicles is already happening because of the obvious benefits they have in stealth and ease of in the field maintenance. 
"Electric engines would be quieter in tactical settings and also simpler to maintain since they require far fewer parts than combustion engines. The technology also could increase the operational range of current vehicles, but one challenge the Army must overcome is how electric vehicles can be recharged reliably in remote battlefield settings."  https://www.nationaldefensemagazine....cle-technology

----------


## John2b

> The atmosphere  contains 0.04% CO2 ... 97% made by nature. 3% by humans.

  Nope; C02 is now >420 ppm, C02 levels in 1880 at the start of the industrial revolution were 290. 
So .04% can't make a difference to how a volume of molecules behaves? Wrong. It takes less than 0.0001% of an impurity to turn insulated crystalline silicon derived from beach sand into the semiconductors that are the building blocks of electronics, computers, LED lights, etc.

----------


## John2b

> The lack of reserves of fuel and storage capacity is criminal, and any step to restore some of that is welcome and should be free of partisan rubbish.

  The lack of reserve is a direct consequence of free market economics and the removal of industry regulations that started in the 1980s with the advent of neoliberalism. There is no profit to be had from reserves so why would any company want to have reserves?

----------


## John2b

> _The security package will involve__ a 1.8 cent per litre_ _support payment for refined fuel in Australia over the next nine years_]

  On the news tonight, the guvmint claims the $2.4 billion subsidy will protect 1250 jobs - that's nearly $2,000,000 subsidy per job! 
The profit margin for refineries over the last couple of years is between 1½ and 2 cents per litre; this $2 billion subsidy doubles their profit. Who here would object if the guvmint gave them $1 for every $1 earned? In fact, to be equitable to all Australians the guvmint should immediately subsidise everyone to double their income.

----------


## Bedford

> On the news tonight, the guvmint claims the $2.4 billion subsidy will protect 1250 jobs - that's nearly $2,000,000 subsidy per job!

  I think you missed this bit,   

> Prime Minister Scott Morrison has announced a $2 billion fuel security   package aimed at keeping Australias last remaining oil refineries live   while saving 1200 jobs.

  He's not funding jobs, he's saving them. 
Relax, they'll fund it from a road tax on electric cars anyway.

----------


## Moondog55

Actually Marc Defence uses a lot of Huge batteries.
 In submarines.
A little levity is needed in this thread

----------


## John2b

> I think you missed this bit

   Nope, totally understood Moronison's playing with semantics.

----------


## phild01

> Nope, totally understood Moronison's playing with semantics.

  But Labour supports it too.

----------


## johnc

> Nope, totally understood Moronison's playing with semantics.

  Morrison has been caught out, he had been told Australia needs to step up to the plate in 2018 on fuel reserves or he can't play with the big boys. We then bought 98M in oil and let the US hold it over there not on our own soil. This isn't so much about jobs but lowering the vunerability of Australia to oil supply shocks. We rely heavily on refined overseas petroleum product and on the governments watch we have come very close to the loss of all our refineries. As it stands Australian refineries can only produce a tiny amount of demand. we have onshore reserves that may last 30 to 50 days if there was a hault to OS deliveries, this new plan really isn't for petrol, it's diesel. Not much of a plan really, not much added storage and a massive price tag. It's those left wing, chardonay sipping, crushed avocado munching happy clappers that have taken over the Liberal party that have caused this problem, time for the revolution. :Biggrin:  
FWIW Defence have an electric ATV as well as everready run submarines.

----------


## r3nov8or

All this talk about fossil fuel deals designed to help us survive in times of international crisis is distracting from how lithium chloride is no longer available to sanitise my spa due to all these bloody "battery roosters" paying over the odds for the raw product

----------


## Marc

> Actually Marc Defence uses a lot of Huge batteries.
>  In submarines.
> A little levity is needed in this thread

  Ha ha Moon ... do you know how do they recharge the batteries in a sub? 
And how do they recharge the batteries in those experimental electric vehicles ?
Yes my friend, they use DIESEL. 
So it is OIL and DIESEL and REFINERIES that need to be protected ... among other things of course, like pots and pans for example  :Smilie:  
John ... so CO2 is 'now'  0.042 and not 0.04? Really ... catastrophic indeed. The fraud of global warming is the biggest con ever perpetuated. If there is a change that must be contemplated seriously is cooling not warming. No one survives an ice age. 
r3nov8tor, I use bromide in the spa. Needs much less than lithium. One tablet is all it takes for a 2000L spa.

----------


## r3nov8or

> ...
> r3nov8tor, I use bromide in the spa. Needs much less than lithium. One tablet is all it takes for a 2000L spa.
> ...

  We digress, but I only use lithium, after using the spa,  to supplement ozone sanitation

----------


## John2b

> But Labour supports it too.

----------


## Moondog55

I guess that means we need solar powered submarines

----------


## Bros

> I use bromide in the spa.

   Only a myth that it reduces sexual libido so try something else.

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## Marc

Ha ha, not a myth. Potassium Bromide (KBr) is an old sedative and in higher doses can inhibit the erection mechanism. 
The spa sanitiser is 1-Bromo-3chloro-5,5-dimethylhydantoin is insoluble in water yet reacts slowly with it, producing hypochlorous and hypobromous acid that kills bacteria.  
The hypobromous acid BrOH is happy to release the OH- and float away on its on as Br+ in water, but to get to a therapeutic dose of 3-9gr I would have to drink about 1000 l of water in one go. Rather unlikely  :Smilie:

----------


## johnc

> We digress, but I only use lithium, after using the spa,  to supplement ozone sanitation

   Has the added benefit of managing manic depression, I'm told stale urine will also help kill the bugs.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Has the added benefit of managing manic depression, I'm told stale urine will also help kill the bugs.

  Fresh is always best

----------


## Marc

Fresh urine or fresh manic  depression? :Smilie:

----------


## r3nov8or

I'm outta whiskey. Need a lithium spa

----------


## Marc

> I guess that means we need solar powered submarines

  Our dear own Albanese would agree with you wholeheartedly. He was the one telling us his vision of the future " electric cars recharging at home overnight on solar panels."  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> Our dear own Albanese would agree with you wholeheartedly. He was the one telling us his vision of the future " electric cars recharging at home overnight on solar panels."

   Not what he said, but don't worry if it fits your ideology. Because there are solar panels on a house's roof does not mean the house does not have power overnight - doh! Most people who own BEVs already do what Albanese actually said, which is have solar panels on their roof _and_ charge their car overnight.

----------


## Marc

That is _exactly_ what he said. Sure, you can charge batteries that will then charge the car "overnight", or you can send the power to the net, get a rebate and charge it on coal fired power "overnight". The great fallacy is that it is _FOR FREE._ Nothing is free. The only thing free is the air he is warming as he burps out nonsense. The solar panels are paid by the taxpayer if he wants it or not, and the rest is paid by the homeowner. If he was silly enough to buy batteries, he will pay double. when he installs them and when he needs to replace them, not to mention dispose of them ... oh well ... most likely someone will put his hand up to pay for disposal (with other people's money) to save the planet. 
https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2021/04/therapeutic-albaneses-solar-panels-charging-the-electric-car-overnight.html

----------


## Bedford

> Not what he said,

  Yes it was,   

> The future, "solar panels on your roof charging your vehicle for free overnight."  https://twitter.com/i/status/1377455903079731200

----------


## Moondog55

Well it is free once the costs of the panels and battery are amortised.
It depends on the lifespan of the battery and the lifespan of the solar panels. Which should get better as time goes on

----------


## Marc

> Well it is free once the costs of the panels and battery are amortised.
> It depends on the lifespan of the battery and the lifespan of the solar panels. Which should get better as time goes on

  Sure, like everything. What you must consider is that the real cost is not what the homeowner paid. It is way higher and unlikely to cover the real cost in its useful life time. In other words ... it's a con.

----------


## John2b

> Yes it was,

  You left out the pause. Changing the meaning of what other people say is an amusing pass-time for some.

----------


## John2b

Charging BEVs overnight could add years of financially viability to ancient fossil energy 'base load' generators which can't respond to changes in demand and need to be kept stoked and smoking overnight when there's no market for the electricity they produce.

----------


## Marc

Yes John ... in you bubble, the electricity demand goes to bed with the domestic consumer. Good night, see ya tomorrow. (the fat lady sings and it is curtains)

----------


## John2b

So the scomornic guvmint is going to spend precious tax revenue on a new gas fired electricity generator, foregoing spending on health care, aged care, vaccine rollouts, education, etc, etc. The guvmint spending on generation will obviously distort the privatised energy market and create disincentive barriers for market driven private generators; gas is by far the most expensive form of electricity generation per kWh in Australia today. 
The formidable fossil lobby has been out recently spruiking the importance of the gas industry for pharmaceuticals, plastics, fertilisers, etc. What sort of brain malfunction does it take to promote the burning to extinction such a precious and limited resource? It must be called TMCD, the Taylor Moronison cognition defect. 
Meanwhile in a southern state which has the greatest penetration of rooftop solar and yet by far the cheapest wholesale electricity prices in Australia, excess solar electricity is being used to electrolyse hydrogen, to be blended into the natural gas network reducing reliance on fossil gas. The fact that this process, along with pumped hydro and battery, is yet another way to store solar energy is no doubt going to go over the heads of fossil ideologues.

----------


## John2b

> Yes John ... in you bubble, the electricity demand goes to bed with the domestic consumer.

  Not my bubble, I'm not grid connected. In _your_ bubble, electricity demand _does_ go to bed with the domestic consumer. Look at 3am in the National Energy Market demand curves (hint: the curve starts at midnight):

----------


## Bros

> Meanwhile in a southern state which has the greatest penetration of rooftop solar and yet by far the cheapest wholesale electricity prices in Australia, excess solar electricity is being used to electrolyse hydrogen,.

   And what state is that?

----------


## Bros

> Not my bubble, I'm not grid connected. In _your_ bubble, electricity demand _does_ go to bed with the domestic consumer. Look at 3am in the National Energy Market demand curves:  Attachment 129053

   Ever heard of averaging?

----------


## phild01

> ....no market for the electricity they produce.

  Sure there is,and plenty of people use it.

----------


## John2b

> Sure there is,and plenty of people use it.

  Overnight fossil electricity generators have traditionally struggled to find enough customers to be able to economically manage their excess generation, since in particular coal fired boilers take hours to adjust to changes in demand and adjusting is an inefficient and expensive process. Charging electric vehicles overnight is beneficial to the grid; everyone benefits, even the luddites who don't believe in battery electric cars or battery tools. Just as off peak rates have encouraged other users to stay switched on, or even turn on, like hot water heaters and some electricity intensive industries.

----------


## John2b

> Ever heard of averaging?

   I am not sure how averaging helps the fact that electricity demand is minimum at 3am. Electricity generators boiling water with fires struggle to balance generation with load. Funny that water boiling steam engines are not used for traction engines or locomotives anymore for that very reason, but some bright spark thinks they are good for electricity; must have TMCD.

----------


## Marc

Regardless of John's peculiar rhetoric, the fact remains that it is as irrelevant as commenting on which one is the dominant paw of the local rabbit population.  
The only factor that gives so called renewables a tinge of validity, is the fallacy that CO2 is a danger to the planet. Denounce the demonisation of CO2 for what it is, a FRAUD, and the market will take care of how we produce electricity, and not lefty ideologues, green cheer leaders, and teenagers with mental issues.  
The byproduct of this farce are the electric cars. If they step up the technology to compete on equal ground with petrol or diesel, no objections. As it is they push for a place in the market by claiming a status that is false on many fronts. They are not better for the environment, if all factors are considered honestly they are in fact worse. 
The global warming comedy show, costs trillions upon trillions that deserve a better cause. As it is, they go in the coffers of a suspect minority that benefits from the myths, legends and assorted lies pedalled by the unsuspecting useful idiots of the day.

----------


## John2b

> And what state is that?

  Electricity prices per MWh by region for Q4 2020: https://www.aer.gov.au/news-release/...s-fell-in-2020 
Supply of renewable hydrogen blended gas to homes via existing networks: https://www.agig.com.au/hydrogen-park-south-australia

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## John2b

> Regardless of John's peculiar rhetoric...

  ...which is basing decisions on economics and utility, not planet saving climate action, i.e. use the appropriate tool for the job - doh!

----------


## Bedford

> You left out the pause. Changing the meaning of what other people say is an amusing pass-time for some.

  I didn't leave anything out, it is exactly what he said on April Fools day. 
Stop making stuff up John.

----------


## John2b

> Stop making stuff up John.  Posted by *John2b, And no, BEVs are not going to save the planet, which doesn't need saving anyway.*

  Bedford, why would you quote stuff on your byline from people who you reckon make it up? By your own reasoning the statement you are quoting is probably false.

----------


## Bros

> Electricity prices per MWh by region for Q4 2020: https://www.aer.gov.au/news-release/...s-fell-in-2020

  I notice you can't say it maybe embarrassed by the highest retail price in the NEM, wholesale price means nothing to the user just what they pay

----------


## Bros

> since in particular coal fired boilers take hours to adjust to changes in demand

  Complete rubbish.

----------


## Bros

> I am not sure how averaging helps the fact that electricity demand is minimum at 3am.

  Average all the curves out for 3am there has been little change and the contributors to the generation at 3 am are the coal fired generators.

----------


## John2b

Bros, by all means misquote, misconstrue and ignore the context of posts, mine and others. That way you can keep your personal flat earth reality going a bit longer. 
Everyone knows that wholesale prices do not determine retail prices - doh! You might ask which state has the greatest transmission structure in kilometres per customer?

----------


## John2b

> Average all the curves out for 3am there has been little change and the contributors to the generation at 3 am are the coal fired generators.

  Which says nothing about daily (hour on hour) demand variations, which is what my post was about.

----------


## John2b

> Complete rubbish.

  I suspect we are talking about tow different things. Sure the steam output of a fire heated hot water boiler producing steam to turn a turbine can 'throttled' to control output almost immediately. But that is not balancing supply with load in the bigger picture, which is balancing the thermal input to the boilers with the electrical load exiting the plant. That takes days for nuclear power plant and hours for coal, and that's a well known, established fact of electrical power plant engineering, not a subject of opinion or debate. In an extreme but valid example, a plant starts with cold water in the boilers. How long until it is generating electricity, let alon in any condition to be balancing load with generation?

----------


## John2b

> I didn't leave anything out, it is exactly what he said on April Fools day. 
> Stop making stuff up John.

  The transcript he was reading has a comma, the video of the interview linked has a pause -watch it- and the meaning of what he is is indisputable unless some pedant wants to make out it means something different. And just to prove a point thousands of households across Australia are already doing what he said. 
I am always being told that the things I do every day cannot be done. I don't believe the people who tell me that. I think they are making stuff up, but there you go some people who haven't done things seem to know a lot about the things they have never done!

----------


## Bros

> Everyone knows that wholesale prices do not determine retail prices - doh!

   I am one of the everyone as I have no idea maybe someone else does.

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## johnc

They are part of the retail price though, along with poles and wires and all the rest of it.

----------


## Bros

> I suspect we are talking about tow different things. Sure the steam output of a fire heated hot water boiler producing steam to turn a turbine can 'throttled' to control output almost immediately. But that is not balancing supply with load in the bigger picture, which is balancing the thermal input to the boilers with the electrical load exiting the plant.

   Coal fired plant has no problems balancing generation with demand, happens all the time.

----------


## Marc

> The transcript he was reading has a comma, the video of the interview linked has a pause -watch it- and the meaning of what he is is indisputable unless some pedant wants to make out it means something different. And just to prove a point thousands of households across Australia are already doing what he said. 
> I am always being told that the things I do every day cannot be done. I don't believe the people who tell me that. I think they are making stuff up, but there you go some people who haven't done things seem to know a lot about the things they have never done!

  More nonsense,this were his exact words. the triple dots are his pause he used for effect, together with large arm gestures   

> what does the future look like? ... solar panels ... on the roof ... charging your vehicle ... for free ... overnight ... that is what it looks like.

   However, you overlook the fact that my point of quoting Albo is not to ridicule him, no no no, he does a great job all by himself, does not need my help. 
It is to highlight the ignorant appeal to emotions, that is a classic to camouflage the truth about everything envirocrap. 
Tell people they are missing out on something *for free* due to those bad conservative who want it all for themselves. 
It is no different, mutatis mutandis, from the manure pedalled by 'professor' Flanagan not so long ago.

----------


## Moondog55

I was at Geelong Gate shopping centre today and they are putting in 7 Tesla charging stations and 2 big Tesla battery stacks, however I didn't see where the solar panels associated with them are.

----------


## John2b

> Coal fired plant has no problems balancing generation with demand, happens all the time.

   Yes, and it can take several hours. Coal generators traditionally balanced by making up time mid morning a couple of hours after the morning peak, when demand exceeds supply and the generators have slowed slowed down, losing time. The whole process was repeated early evening after the late afternoon peak load from home heating or air conditioning. 
This adjusting was not only necessary to balance the boiler heat energy input with electrical energy demand fed to the grid, but also necessary to keep clocks with synchronous motors on time. Of course the plant operators anticipated load cycles and shovelled in the coal in advance to mitigate the problem of slow response time. 
Even today where frequency is controlled across the whole national grid, not a consequence of load matching local generators, the AEMO provides 30-minute forecasts of operational demand to help out those ancient steam boilers play in the open electricity market. 
As a one time owner of a retail store in Adelaide some years ago, I was forever explaining to fussy customers why record players ran fast and slow at different times of the day.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Marc

> I was at Geelong Gate shopping centre today and they are putting in 7 Tesla charging stations and 2 big Tesla battery stacks, however I didn't see where the solar panels associated with them are.

  
That's because it is all wired to the network, fuelled by good old dirty  :Aargh:  coal.  
By the way, why is coal "dirty" ?

----------


## Bros

> Yes, and it can take several hours. Coal generators traditionally balanced by making up time mid morning a couple of hours after the morning peak, when demand exceeds supply and the generators have slowed slowed down, losing time. The whole process was repeated early evening after the late afternoon peak load from home heating or air conditioning.

  About 25 yrs out of date.   

> This adjusting was not only necessary to balance the boiler heat energy input with electrical energy demand fed to the grid, but also necessary to keep clocks with synchronous motors on time. Of course the plant operators anticipated load cycles and shovelled in the coal in advance to mitigate the problem of slow response time.

  You shovel coal in advance and the result is higher and higher steam pressure not a desirable outcome.

----------


## r3nov8or

> I was at Geelong Gate shopping centre today and they are putting in 7 Tesla charging stations and 2 big Tesla battery stacks, however I didn't see where the solar panels associated with them are.

  Google maps suggests there are no solar panels on that entire shopping centre. Hmmmm. Maybe they've been installed since. Or maybe that will happen soon. Or not.

----------


## Moondog55

The Aldi across the road has a roof covered with solar panels. must be 100 of them.

----------


## phild01

> Google maps suggests there are no solar panels on that entire shopping centre. Hmmmm. Maybe that will change soon. Or not.

  Was waiting for that :Biggrin:

----------


## John2b

> About 25 yrs out of date.

  Sure, steam bypass throttle systems and frequency control systems mean the the generation output of thermal plants is more responsive than it used to be. 
But it does not solve the problem of balancing thermal input to the boilers with electrical energy delivery because by their very nature furnaces and boilers have high thermal inertia and long response times. 
Another problem is that if the generator is throttled, it is very likely running at a loss because the operational costs do not go down much as the electrical output from the plant drops. Not being able to operate economically is why so many coal plants have already shut and more are scheduled to shut.

----------


## r3nov8or

> The Aldi across the road has a roof covered with solar panels. must be 100 of them.

  Yep. All ALDIs I've seen have this

----------


## John2b

> Google maps suggests there are no solar panels on that entire shopping centre.

   Google maps aerial image of the area is nearly 2½ years old, from Jan 2019.

----------


## phild01

> Google maps aerial image of the area is nearly 2½ years old, from Jan 2019.

  Anyone have Nearmap.

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## r3nov8or

> Google maps aerial image of the area is nearly 2½ years old, from Jan 2019.

  Genius

----------


## John2b

Queensland coal miners test drive a Tesla. Language warning.  https://youtu.be/JHFTSzCIr9Q 
I've had the same reaction from petrolhead friends who've driven my Nissan Leaf

----------


## Bros

> Sure, steam bypass throttle systems and frequency control systems mean the the generation output of thermal plants is more responsive than it used to be. 
> But it does not solve the problem of balancing thermal input to the boilers with electrical energy delivery because by their very nature furnaces and boilers have high thermal inertia and long response times. 
> Another problem is that if the generator is throttled, it is very likely running at a loss because the operational costs do not go down much as the electrical output from the plant drops. Not being able to operate economically is why so many coal plants have already shut and more are scheduled to shut.

   I'm sick of correcting your half truths and downright lies about the operation of coal fired power stations so I would suggest you go back to your internet source weather it be Wikipedia or something else and find someone with 30 yrs in coal fired power station to up skill you as I will not be doing it any more.

----------


## Marc

> Robert Reich: 
> Elon Musk thinks Im a moron because I called out his exploitative labor practices. He neglected to mention that he:   Illegally threatened to take away stock options if employees unionized (the judge in this case found Musk and Tesla violated labor laws in 11 additional ways)  Fired an employee one day before his stock options vested  Fired staff after promising them they could take unpaid time off if they didnt feel comfortable returning to work during COVID  Has had 43 workers rights violations filed against his company since 2010  Has had 145 complaints filed with Californias Department of Fair Employment and Housing since 2014  He can call me every name in the book  it wont change the fact that hes a modern-day robber baron, through and through.

  And now the "hero" of the electric car suckers, ( reverse Robin Hood) has managed in synchrony with the CCP to crash Crypto by 30% ... well done!

----------


## Moondog55

Funny I thought you were in favour of "Robber Barons" Marc

----------


## John2b

> ...find someone with 30 yrs in coal fired power station to up skill you as I will not be doing it any more.

  When were you doing it at all? You misunderstood some of my posts (I apologise for not being able to write more clearly) and I have misunderstood some of yours (for which I acknowledge my failure to always understand what some one else means), but scanning back over the last couple of pages you haven't contributed insight into energy efficiency of steam cycle electricity generation. The word 'rubbish' to refute something is just petulance, not correction; why don't you share your knowledge? 
BTW one of my colleagues (Phil Reid RIP) was a head operator at the Torrens Island power stations in the early '70s through the 80s (in the days of ETSA), and with an interest in electrical and electronics I was occasionally there at his invitation in the control room. That is where I learned about load balancing and making up time in the old days before national grids, not from reading about it. I subsequently enrolled in a degree course in electrical engineering, which is all about generation, motors, thermodynamics and the application of the laws of physics, although after a couple of years I switched to electronic engineering.

----------


## Marc

> Funny I thought you were in favour of "Robber Barons" Marc

  Nee ... if you think that, you are mistaken.

----------


## r3nov8or

Ford counters Tesla Cybertruck with tradie-ready F-150 electric ute  https://thedriven.io/2021/05/20/ford...ctric-ute/amp/

----------


## John2b

The guvmint subsidies for utes and vans introduced in 2020 by Friedenburg have seen that part of the market exceed national passenger car sales for the first time ever this year.  Which utes and vans are eligible for the full $150,000 Instant ...https://www.carexpert.com.au  Car News

----------


## Marc

Was inadvertently watching ABC yesterday, when I saw the above article used to "prove" that the gov "subsidies" are for conventional vehicles and "against" electric one.
A snippet was inserted with someone stating that the government will not subsidise luxury vehicles and then the triumphant comment by the bent ABC talking head, that the gov has no problem subsidising conventional vehicles yet not electric one. How can anyone take the ABC seriously is beyond me. 
The idiocy of linking this tax concessions for work vehicles that have some work purpose, to a mythical anti-electric and anti-environment malice, is flabbergasting. If there was one electric car that a builder can buy for work and that falls in that category, it would qualify for tax concession. There is no mention of fuel to qualify. The reality is that electric utes in any remotely decent price bracket and the ability to tow and carry a ton, don't exist yet. Better luck next time.  
As a side note, I wonder if the insignificant difference in the loading capacity can be made up with stiffer suspension? 
Anyway, glad both my choices for a new vehicle, Landcruiser and Ranger are listed. Will be able to burn diesel at my heart content for a couple of decades more  :2thumbsup:  
PS
The electric Ford 150 https://thedriven.io/2021/05/20/ford...ctric-ute/amp/ "extended range", 480 km is actually barely adequate when you consider that load and towing will reduce this theoretical to may be 300Km ... is 90k US in LHD. Meaning that in Australia this translate to 150k to 200k in LHD and probably $250k or more if left to right conversion prices can be compared to a conventional vehicle. 
We will need to wait for Toyota to do a move so that at least we can benefit with the Japanese RHD version. Pity that the UK does not make cars anymore. Too busy listening to Charles and Boris talking about sustainability and inclusiveness. 
This comment by the obscure author takes the cake: *If it were made in Australia it would be a clear dig at the misinformation perpetrated by the Morrison government, in particular Michaelia Cash’s comments in 2019 that being forced to buy electric vehicles would leave tradespeople without suitable transport. * "If it were made in Australia" ... what a joke. If my grandfather had wheels and a trolley he would be a tram.
 A push to make electric vehicles compulsory today would have the exact same effect Michaelia Cash commented 2 years ago. No difference/  _"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid" Benjamin Franklin _ * *

----------


## Bedford



----------


## UseByDate

> We will need to wait for Toyota to do a move so that at least we can benefit with the Japanese RHD version. Pity that the UK does not make cars anymore. Too busy listening to Charles and Boris talking about sustainability and inclusiveness.

  https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/manufacturing/

----------


## METRIX

> 

  I like the usual fake thumbnail, they make out the machine is 500m high, it's actually only 5.9m high  :Smilie:   :Smilie:

----------


## METRIX

Here are some interesting articles for Australia's part (if we do it right) for the multi $billion industry just over the horizon.  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/n...ry-industries/ 
This article looks at the difference in sending the raw material to be converted, vs producing the end product, the difference in $ is staggering.
And is why I have always said we still need to send stuff overseas but we also need to start producing end product from the raw resources we have here as that's where the money is.  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/featur...smart-country/

----------


## Marc

Selling raw material without any added value is subsistence strategy for african or south american countries. The dismantling of manufacture so happily embraced by Bob Hawke and followed by the morons after him is a disgrace. 
Now that China is a real danger, we can not even make a chip that is not from potato. In fact, we even import frozen chips from Canada. 
Our elected representatives deserve being strung up from their minuscule testicles

----------


## METRIX

> Selling raw material without any added value is subsistence strategy for african or south american countries. The dismantling of manufacture so happily embraced by Bob Hawke and followed by the moron that followed is a disgrace.

  This Gov't seems to be on the right track.  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/1...iative-starts/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/a...ew-space-dish/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/1...ical-products/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/b...stralian-jobs/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/p...stralian-made/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/n...ring-strategy/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/p...isation-grant/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/g...manufacturing/  https://www.manmonthly.com.au/news/r...automotive-rd/

----------


## Marc

It will take decades to get back to the level of manufacturing we had 50 years ago if we ever get back to that. I remember in the eighties I imported a container of merchandise and wasn't charged any duties. "Your first container is free" was the explanation given. 
Treason is the only concept that comes to mind.
We are now in a situation where we can not produce the most basic goods and the idea of self sufficiency is a joke.
Oh but we are really grand in debating de-colonisation and the renaming with aboriginal names that mean zilch to 99.99% of real and present people. 
May be we can learn to make spears to repeal a chinese attack?

----------


## John2b

> May be we can learn to make spears to repeal a chinese attack?

  Might be better at that than submarines, even have a bit of expertise already.

----------


## Bart1080

....Its interesting what $ you can import a grey Nissan Leaf for .....still out of my price range but I dare say it will get there in the next few years. 
For those that like to see car restorations conversions of classic cars to electric, some really interesting projects and great results. ...would need some deep pockets for a few of these but interesting regardless.  *This one is just insane - 450hp Tesla powered 1969 VW Crew Cab - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKNVgdRtzKs*VW Beetle - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZELO3SAzwcY

----------


## Marc

Sorry, the video indexing has gone bad again. *Why JCB thinks hydrogen is the best alternative to diesel for heavy machinery, farming and HGV fleet * Go Hydrogen,
screw the electric crapparola 
The internal combustion engine is not the problem, it is the fuel that is the problem. Change the fuel, and use existing engines. 
Tesla go jump ...  :Smilie:      https://youtu.be/wDKLoLUQgH0

----------


## John2b

Some electric cars have fake internal combustion engine sounds, now there is a fake petrol smell. 
A Ford-commissioned survey claims one in five drivers said the smell of petrol is what they’d miss most when swapping to an electric vehicle, “with almost 70 per cent claiming they would miss the smell of petrol to some degree”.  
“Petrol also ranked as a more popular scent than both wine and cheese, and almost identically to the smell of new books” among car enthusiasts, said Ford. "Judging by our survey findings, the sensory appeal of petrol cars is still something drivers are reluctant to give up,” said a Ford of Europe spokesperson. “The Mach-Eau fragrance is designed to give them a hint of that fuel-fragrance they still crave.” 
Ford revealed the fragrance at last weekend’s Goodwood Festival of Speed in the UK. 
Ford creates petrol fume fragrance for electric Mustang Mach-E: https://www.drive.com.au/news/ford-c...medium=partner

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## Marc

The extent to which some will go to shift blame to the consumer for industry problems is flabbergasting. 
Gaslighting at its best.

----------


## John2b

> The internal combustion engine is not the problem, *it is the fuel that is the problem*.

   What is the problem with the fuel?

----------


## Marc

The objections to diesel engines are misdirected. It is not the engine, it is the fuel that is to blame.
With H2 no CO2 from Hydrogen combustion, so that should appease all the scaremongering global warming alarmist, just water. Some NO and NO2 that can be minimized with old school catalytic convertors, no particulate emissions, way cheaper technology than hydrogen cells or battery/electric.
Sure the requirements for high pressure and distribution have to be developed, no different from natural gas pumping stations. Will we witness another technology suppression by the morons in charge to favour a more expensive and damaging product? Let's wait and see. 
I like the idea of internal combustion driven by water.

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## Moondog55

We have known for decades that even old fuel guzzling bangers can run just fine on Hydrogen, we just need to accept and pay for the transition to a new technology.

----------


## John2b

> I like the idea of internal combustion driven by water.

  Where does the energy to produce this hydrogen for the revolution in ICE vehicles come from? The mechanics of creating, storing and using hydrogen for ICE engines means that around 2½ times as much energy is required per kilometre compared to the energy used by BEVs from the same energy source. 
Range is an issue with hydrogen fuel requiring about three times the volume of petrol even when stored cryogenically at minus 253 degrees; so far the energy storage in batteries for BEVs is quite inexpensive by comparison to hydrogen storage, and the cost disparity is worsening rapidly as battery technology becomes cheaper.    

> We have known for decades that even old fuel guzzling bangers can run just fine on Hydrogen

  It's been known for decades that compression ignition engines cannot run on pure hydrogen; hydrogen does not ignite under compression.

----------


## Moondog55

When I said "Bangers" I was thinking about Chevy V-8s and Holley carburetors. 
Won't diesels run at all on H2??

----------


## Marc

> It's been known for decades that compression ignition engines cannot run on pure hydrogen; hydrogen does not ignite under compression.

  Must tell JCB urgently! They don't know that. ...

----------


## John2b

No need to tell JBC, their prototype hydrogen excavator is electric motor driven from fuel cell technology.

----------


## John2b

> Won't diesels run at all on H2??

  When I scanned around on the topic I read that pure H2 isn't suitable for diesel engines, the problem being that H2 ignites at far too low a temperature to have high enough compression ratios for the diesel cycle to be worthwhile (efficient). A hydrogen/oxygen mix injected at the right time into a conventional diesel engine can improve performance and emissions.

----------


## Bedford

*“Your registration may be suspended:” Victoria escalates war on EV owners*  https://thedriven.io/2021/08/03/your...-on-ev-owners/

----------


## Bart1080

...so is this a new "state" tax?  
Fuel excise is a federal tax where as the states keep the rego and stamp duties. https://www.aaa.asn.au/fuel-excise-explained/ https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petroltax/

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## Bedford

> ...so is this a new "state" tax?

  It says it's a ZLEV road user charge.

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## John2b

ZLEV means zero or low emission vehicle. The state guvmints do not receive revenue from ICE vehicle owners related to road use. Why aren't ICE vehicles subject to the same road usage charges as ZLEV vehicle road users in Victoria? Since when were ICE vehicle owners not road users?

----------


## r3nov8or

> ZLEV means zero or low emission vehicle. The state guvmints do not receive revenue from ICE vehicle owners related to road use. Why aren't ICE vehicles subject to the same road usage charges as ZLEV vehicle road users in Victoria? Since when were ICE vehicle owners not road users?

  It's obviously to offset the 'lost' allocation of federal fossil fuel excise which primarily maintains the state roads.  
What constitutes "low emission"? Does the owner of a  hybrid vehicle which uses petrol and charges its own battery have pay as a ZLEV while also paying fuel excise?

----------


## John2b

> It's obviously to offset the 'lost' allocation of federal fossil fuel excise which primarily maintains the state roads.

  There is no allocation of fuel excise, proportional or otherwise, to state coffers for maintenance of state roads.   

> Does the owner of a  hybrid vehicle which uses petrol and charges its own battery have pay as a ZLEV while also paying fuel excise?

   Yes, 20 cents per 100km. 
The Victorian government says the money raised from the charge will be used to help fund a $100 million package of policies and programs designed to _encourage the uptake of ZLEVs!!!_ 
Motorists driving a ZLEV that is registered in Victoria are required to pay the road user charge for all kilometres travelled within Victoria _and interstate!!!_ 
The $100 discount for registration of ZLEVs in Victoria will continue! 
It's highly likely that the cost of administering the scheme will exceed the revenue raised...

----------


## UseByDate

> It's obviously to offset the 'lost' allocation of federal fossil fuel excise which primarily maintains the state roads.  
> What constitutes "low emission"? Does the owner of a  hybrid vehicle which uses petrol and charges its own battery have pay as a ZLEV while also paying fuel excise?

  No. As long as it is not a plug in hybrid.   https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/regi...ad-user-charge

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## John2b

> No. As long as it is not a plug in hybrid.

   Yes that's correct. A plug in hybrid typically only has a range of a few kilometres, but gets to pay the ZLEV at the 80% rate. Go figure! 
It's not a road user tax, it's a battery tax!

----------


## r3nov8or

> There is no allocation of fuel excise, proportional or otherwise, to state coffers for maintenance of state roads.

   I might "rephrase". Not state, but for roads nonetheless - (from link above)  *FUEL EXCISE IS USED TO HELP PAY FOR OUR ROADS.*_Charges applied to road users through the excise paid on petrol and diesel is used to pay for the construction and maintenance of roads in Australia._ Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack Unlike registration and drivers licence fees, which go to state and territory governments, fuel excise is collected by the federal government. Like almost all federal taxes, fuel excise goes into the Governments general revenue, which is then drawn upon to fund our transport infrastructure. It is the contribution that you, as a motorist, make to the development and maintenance of our road transport system.

----------


## Bart1080

..so its the state gov introducing a brand new state tax then  :Smilie:  
And because it affects 5,800 vehicles, it will have little resistance.
Would have been far more efficient to slap an extra $200 on the rego, receive 1/2 the amount but with no BS logging of KM and overhead of maintaining yet another revenue tax collection scheme. 
I swear, the more tax's we pay the more inefficient the GOV becomes rather than getting the best bang for buck

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## r3nov8or

> ..so its the state gov introducing a brand new state tax then  
> And because it affects $5,800 vehicles, it will have little resistance.
> Would have been far more efficient to slap an extra $200 on the rego, receive 1/2 the amount but with no BS logging of KM and overhead of maintaining yet another revenue tax collection scheme. 
> I swear, the more tax's we pay the more inefficient the GOV becomes rather than getting the best bang for buck

  Fuel excise is a user pays model (the more you need the more you pay), so they needed to invent a user pays model for ZLEVs (the more Ks the more you pay)  :Rolleyes:  
But this one is better because you don't use your ZLEV to run your fossil chainsaw or lawn mower (or do you?)  :Cool:

----------


## Marc

I have never seen a fossil chainsaw

----------


## John2b

> ...you don't use your ZLEV to run your fossil chainsaw or lawn mower (or do you?)

  I do. At least I live in an off-grid PV powered BEH (battery electric house), run a BEV powered off the house system and run an BEL and BEC (battery electric lawnmower and battery electric chainsaw). About 1% of the energy to run all that comes from a petrol genset. 
I guess the next thing is that councils will slap on a rate surcharge to make up for the GST not paid on electricity bills by properties with PV panels that would otherwise go into feral guvmint general revenue.

----------


## John2b

> I have never seen a fossil chainsaw

  That's not a chainsaw! This is a chainsaw:

----------


## Bart1080

> I guess the next thing is ..........surcharge to make up for the GST not paid on electricity bills by properties with PV panels that would otherwise go into feral guvmint general revenue.

  That's effectively already been slated by some states  :Smilie:

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## UseByDate

> There is no allocation of fuel excise, proportional or otherwise, to state coffers for maintenance of state roads.  
>  Yes, 20 cents per 100km. 
> It's highly likely that the cost of administering the scheme will exceed the revenue raised...

  No. It is 2.5c or 2.0c per km. So either $2.5 or $2.0 per 100km
 If a car does 20,000km per year then the revenue will be $500 or $400. Well worth collecting.

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## Marc

Net Zero what?  https://youtu.be/Ue5vtSV9KqI

----------


## METRIX

NSW is tackling it in a different way, they have said they will also introduce the 2.5c fee, but not until electric cars make up 30% of new car sales or 2027 at the latest.
VICTORIA is introducing it now, it has been labelled as the worst electric vehicle policy in the world and will stop people going electric for their next vehicle.  https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/t...hicle-strategy  https://thedriven.io/2021/06/20/nsw-...heres-a-catch/

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## John2b

As hard as Australian neo-conservative govmints, both Labor and Liberal, try to keep sweet with their fossil energy industry election funders and lobbyists, they won't stop the take-up of electric vehicles once people find out just how good BEVs are for everyday driving. Now at 70,000km our car has still never been in a garage except to pump up the tires. Our total expenditure on 'fuel' is ~$20 so far (we're off grid and that cost is for 5 fast charges in the city).

----------


## r3nov8or

"As hard as Australian neo-conservative govmints, both Labor and Liberal, try to keep sweet with their fossil energy industry election funders and lobbyists...", one has contracted FCEVs... 
"The Nexo Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) becomes the first hydrogen-powered vehicle certified for sale in Australia, with a 20-strong fleet being leased by the ACT Government. "  https://www.racq.com.au/living/artic...l-cell-vehicle 
Very early days, but the ability to fill up in about 4 minutes remains very attractive. There is a "H2 under 2" initiative underway to be able to sell hydrogen for under $2 per kg. FCEVs typically hold 6kgs. Range about 660+klms 
In a household with 4 cars and work locations unlikely to provide such convenience, BEVs will be difficult to keep charged. Not in the market for a new car for the foreseeable future, maybe I'll skip the BEV thing altogether...

----------


## Bart1080

> Our total expenditure on 'fuel' is ~$20 so far (we're off grid and that cost is for 5 fast charges in the city).

  
My net expenditure over the last 12 months has probably been ~$200.  Not bad for running a petrol guzzling RAV4 
....and has nothing to do with spending seemingly half that time in lockdowns  :Smilie:  and most of us not really wanting to go back to working in the city spending 2 to 3 hours of travel a day....up at 4.30am and home at 6pm and spending 2 of those hours crammed shoulder to shoulder in sardine cans called trains!!! 
...so at this rate hard to see me looking at any alternative (electric or H2) until one day I start doing the miles again.

----------


## John2b

> Not in the market for a new car for the foreseeable future, maybe I'll skip the BEV thing altogether...

  Good luck with the FCEV conjecture; the fossil energy industry is playing on such disingenuous projections in their anti-BEV lobbying. FCEVs have been under development for longer than BEVs and had more money thrown at development, particularly in refuelling infrastructure which is a bank breaker. But what electric cars are actually on the road today? I think you could count the number of FCEV on the roads in Australia on the fingers of one hand. And don't misunderstand / misquote me, if FCEVs work that is fantastic. I just need to work out how to chill my solar electrolysed hydrogen gas to -253ºC so enough can fit in a fuel tank to be useful. Even at -253ºC hydrogen has about ⅓ the energy density of petrol or diesel, although with an electric motor that is roughly equivalent to an inefficient ICE powered vehicle with three times the tank capacity.

----------


## METRIX

> My net expenditure over the last 12 months has probably been ~$200.  Not bad for running a petrol guzzling RAV4 
> ....and has nothing to do with spending seemingly half that time in lockdowns  and most of us not really wanting to go back to working in the city spending 2 to 3 hours of travel a day....up at 4.30am and home at 6pm and spending 2 of those hours crammed shoulder to shoulder in sardine cans called trains!!! 
> ...so at this rate hard to see me looking at any alternative (electric or H2) until one day I start doing the miles again.

  Sounds like you need a new job  :Biggrin:   :Tongue:   :Biggrin:

----------


## METRIX

> "As hard as Australian neo-conservative govmints, both Labor and Liberal, try to keep sweet with their fossil energy industry election funders and lobbyists...", one has contracted FCEVs... 
> "The Nexo Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV) becomes the first hydrogen-powered vehicle certified for sale in Australia, with a 20-strong fleet being leased by the ACT Government. "  https://www.racq.com.au/living/artic...l-cell-vehicle 
> Very early days, but the ability to fill up in about 4 minutes remains very attractive. There is a "H2 under 2" initiative underway to be able to sell hydrogen for under $2 per kg. FCEVs typically hold 6kgs. Range about 660+klms 
> In a household with 4 cars and work locations unlikely to provide such convenience, BEVs will be difficult to keep charged. Not in the market for a new car for the foreseeable future, maybe I'll skip the BEV thing altogether...

  Was watching an interesting comparison of EV and Hydrogen powered vehicles the other day. 
They raised a good point that Tesla (with prior years of manufacturing) jumped on board at just the right time, when VW and Diesel gate was happening, EV was looked on as the only "clean" alternative where as Hydrogen was probably the better next fuel source.
Other manufacturers have had to jump on the EV train for fear of being left behind, 
To produce hydrogen is far cleaner than batteries, the filling is faster and conventional petrol stations could easily adapt to supply hydrogen without too much infrastructure changes. 
Heavy industry ie: cargo ships are looking at hydrogen as their clean fuel source due to the smaller amount of fuel needed to carry so frees up more room for cargo. 
Aircraft of the future are ramping up Hydrogen viability as  Hydrogen pack 3 times the amount of energy of jet fuel for given weight.
I guess potential floating and flying hydrogen bombs are something we may have to get used to in the future.

----------


## phild01

Be interesting if a jet could actually work efficiently on hydrogen considering the huge tank size required, not to mention the cylinder weights.

----------


## UseByDate

> Be interesting if a jet could actually work efficiently on hydrogen considering the huge tank size required, not to mention the cylinder weights.

  Full circle? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship

----------


## Bart1080

> Sounds like you need a new job

  
not too far from reality.  Redundant at December 31st 2021....so who knows, train travel might be a thing of the past for me  :Smilie:

----------


## METRIX

> Be interesting if a jet could actually work efficiently on hydrogen considering the huge tank size required, not to mention the cylinder weights.

  https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news...explained.html 
Cargo ships will benefit hugely, when you look at how much dirty fuel they burn per day per ship !!!

----------


## METRIX

> not too far from reality.  Redundant at December 31st 2021....so who knows, train travel might be a thing of the past for me

  Time to change career

----------


## Marc

> Full circle? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airship

  Not really. H2 was used in the Zeppelin as a mean of lift, the propulsion was achieved with piston engines and petrol. 
The attraction of hydrogen as fuel is, that a hydrogen fuelled engine can be made with current industrial set up. 
Earthmoving equipment on H2 is currently produced by the same manufacturer of heavy diesel engines.  
The obsession with electric vehicles is more the result of a misdirected "hate" towards the petrochemical industry, (you know, those bastard fat cats) rather than a rational choice. Manufacturers produce what they can sell, and if something is attractive to the consumer they will produce it, be it a good choice or a bad one. 
Electric cars exist today, despite their many shortcomings, and their existence is not the result of an in depth analysis, but a simple opportunistic choice. 
New development in H2 fuel, or any other fuel for that matter will have an easy task in displacing EV ... unless ... a breakthrough of gargantuan proportions in batteries technology comes to the EV aid. Something like, double the capacity and almost instant charge.  
We wait with bated breath...  :Smilie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IPR50-soNA

----------


## Bros

No Utube rubbish but this is a link to a financial adviser who I subscribe to just for my own information and I am not adding the link for any financial reason but half way down you will see an article from someone who has bought an electric car and his adventures and observations.  https://www.noelwhittaker.com.au/ess...l-news-18-aug/

----------


## Moondog55

Perhaps the cylinder weight won't be that great. I watched a science program on the ABC last year looking at carbon fibre/epoxy/titanium wire fuel tanks for space ships that were much stronger than steel and at a small fraction of steels weight and storage of liquid hydrogen fuel was the aim. Not cheap and we won't be trading in our cars every three years perhaps.

----------


## Bedford

> No Utube rubbish but this is a link to a financial adviser who I subscribe to just for my own information and I am not adding the link for any financial reason but half way down you will see an article from someone who has bought an electric car and his adventures and observations.  https://www.noelwhittaker.com.au/ess...l-news-18-aug/

  People often make poor choices, at least this bloke admits it.........

----------


## phild01

> Perhaps the cylinder weight won't be that great. I watched a science program on the ABC last year looking at carbon fibre/epoxy/titanium wire fuel tanks for space ships that were much stronger than steel and at a small fraction of steels weight and storage of liquid hydrogen fuel was the aim. Not cheap and we won't be trading in our cars every three years perhaps.

  Composite lpg cylinders have been available for some time now but as you say not cheap.

----------


## Moondog55

My understanding was that liquid Hydrogen cylinders had to be much stronger than the LPG cylinders and that is not easy at ultra light levels

----------


## John2b

> petrol stations could easily adapt to supply hydrogen without too much infrastructure changes.

  Dispensing liquid hydrogen is incredibly difficult and expensive at the present time. One hydrogen bowser would probably cost more than an entire petrol station based on Honda's hydrogen refuelling stations that I have seen in Japan.   

> Heavy industry ie: cargo ships are looking at hydrogen as their clean fuel source due to the smaller amount of fuel needed to carry so frees up more room for cargo.

  Liquid hydrogen takes four times more volume for the same energy content as bunker oil or diesel, and that's without factoring in the space of the gear necessary to keep the hydrogen under pressure ~400 Bar (>5000 psi).   

> Aircraft of the future are ramping up Hydrogen viability as  Hydrogen pack 3 times the amount of energy of jet fuel for given weight.

  Except that for the same energy hydrogen takes four times the storage volume of aviation fuel (kerosene), and the weight advantage isn't so good once the weight of the systems necessary to keep the hydrogen liquified at -253ºC are factored in.

----------


## r3nov8or

> My understanding was that liquid Hydrogen cylinders had to be much stronger than the LPG cylinders and that is not easy at ultra light levels

  The Nexo tanks are carbon fibre reinforced 'some special plastic'

----------


## John2b

> Cargo ships will benefit hugely, when you look at how much dirty fuel they burn per day per ship !!!

  There is no need for cargo ships to burn dirty fuel, they could burn clean biodiesel right now. In fact they do burn clean fuel when inside most countries' teritorial jurisdiction. They burn bunker oil when they can get away (i.e. international waters) with it because bunker oil is by far the cheapest fuel at a fraction of diesel. Operators of freighters will not change until some other fuel source is cheaper than bunker oil, which is otherwise the unusable waste product of the oil industry.

----------


## METRIX

Looks like hey might have to  https://e360.yale.edu/features/at-la...ts-dirty-fuels

----------


## John2b

> The attraction of hydrogen as fuel is, that a hydrogen fuelled engine can be made with current industrial set up. 
> Earthmoving equipment on H2 is currently produced by the same manufacturer of heavy diesel engines.

  But not "with a hydrogen fuelled engine" as can be seen here: #1572 (Hint: read the title of the video you posted)   

> Manufacturers produce what they can sell, and if something is attractive to the consumer they will produce it, be it a good choice or a bad one.

  Correct, people want electric cars. If you have owned one, you will know why; if you haven't owned one you are allowed to be blissfully ignorant.   

> Electric cars exist today, despite their many shortcomings, and their existence is not the result of an in depth analysis, but a simple opportunistic choice

  Who wudda thort that shareholders of businesses demand that they take advantage of simple opportunistic choices to grow shareholder returns?

----------


## ForeverYoung

> No Utube rubbish but this is a link to a financial adviser who I subscribe to just for my own information and I am not adding the link for any financial reason but half way down you will see an article from someone who has bought an electric car and his adventures and observations.  https://www.noelwhittaker.com.au/ess...l-news-18-aug/

   

> ...
> Correct, people want electric cars. If you have owned one, you will know why; if you haven't owned one you are allowed to be blissfully ignorant.
> ...

  Here in WA the only people I know with EVs also have a second car. For the reasons Bros link mentioned.
Their range is next to useless for a lot.

----------


## John2b

> Here in WA the only people I know with EVs also have a second car. For the reasons Bros link mentioned.
> Their range is next to useless for a lot.

  Sure. Because one vehicle doesn't cover all purposes and needs, most Australian households have multiple vehicles, not just households with a BEV!  Australian vehicles average around 40km per day, which makes BEVs perfect because they can be charged overnight at home, or during the day at work. I have a BEV that is an excellent sedan, and I also have a high clearance diesel 4WD for an off road and utility vehicle. They both seat 5 adults and luggage in (relative) comfort. For the odd occasion when range is an issue I can take the diesel, so (ignoring the extra cost of using diesel) the limed range of the BEV is immaterial. I'm driving up the Flinders Ranges next week and I certainly would not take a sedan, whether ICE _or_ BEV. A tradesman would call it 'using the most suitable tool for the job'.

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## Marc

John2b ... I think you should disclose to those that don't know you, that your electric car is a grey import worth a fraction of what is available on the Australian market, that you live on a miniature island that can be crossed with half battery charge, on a rural setting, recharge with chargers of your own making and that you also have a second car.  
In my books your electric adventure can only be classified as a hobby, and your defence of the EV is based on ideology and certainly not a from of practicality  that can be suggested to others to follow. 
Not that there is nothing wrong with it.

----------


## r3nov8or

... And 5 people and their luggage in (relative) comfort in a Nissan Leaf? Very funny. I'd like to see that. Is their luggage a wallet or purse?  :Biggrin:

----------


## John2b

> John2b ... I think you should disclose to those that don't know you, that your electric car is a grey import worth a fraction of what is available on the Australian market, that you live on a miniature island that can be crossed with half battery charge, on a rural setting, recharge with chargers of your own making and that you also have a second car.

  Like virtually every household in Australia I have more than one vehicle to cover different requirements needed from time to time. I bought a grey import EV because at the time I could not buy an Australian delivered EV for love or money. That does not change the economics _if you are comparing apples to apples;_ I could have bought any grey import vehicle with similar savings. EVs are only expensive in Australia because of guvmint policy - look to New Zealand if you want an example of true free market on EV car prices compared to ICE cars. 
BTW I cannot make a round trip to the business centre on this "tiny island" without a battery recharge, and the road conditions are so bad I need light truck tires on the car. If I need to go to a hardware store, council office, library, garage, tire retailer, doctor, dentist, hospital, restaurant, chemist, crash repairer, real estate agent, newsagent, clothing shop, shoe shop, etc, etc, I need to recharge the car to get home, so I know all about 'range anxiety'. I do not have a charger "of my own making" and nothing I have done is beyond the capability of an ordinary person who is determined. (In that regard you and I are very similar Marc, don't you think?) 
Marc ... my 'hobby' as you call it, is living within my means. I don't have an income, I'm not so wealthy that unlike you I can buy anything I want to as you have often claimed, I don't get a pension or any CentreLink benefits, I don't have any benefactors, I don't get any share dividends, I don't have any concession or pension cards. I have a small amount of superannuation (from which I withdrew an amount to buy the EV) but certainly not enough superannuation to draw an income from. You know I lost everything I owned when my business and marriage collapsed some years ago. When I qualify for the pension I will be wealthiest I have been for more than a decade and a half. The cost of running an ICE car, were I depended on one, would be my single greatest annual expense, and that would be just plain stupid.

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## John2b

> ... And 5 people and their luggage in (relative) comfort in a Nissan Leaf? Very funny. I'd like to see that. Is their luggage a wallet or purse?

  You are laughing because you have travelled in a Leaf? I think not. If you had, you would know that inside is the same size as any similar sedan, but without a fuel tank there is relatively large luggage space.

----------


## phild01

> Marc ... my 'hobby' as you call it, is living within my means. I don't have an income, ...., I don't get a pension or any CentreLink benefits....I have a small amount of superannuation (from which I withdrew an amount to buy the EV) but certainly not enough superannuation to draw an income from. You know I lost everything I owned

  I hope you are not just surviving on kangaroos  :Unsure:

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## John2b

> I hope you are not just surviving on kangaroos

  Why do you think I have such a spring in my step...

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## Marc

Now now, John, I said there was nothing wrong with it. 
Yet, for 99% of the Australian population, buying an electric car would be the complete opposite from living within their means, rather it would be to buy an expensive toy, pretending to be "green".
Will the EV ever become a cheaper alternative and a practical economical mean of transportation? May be, may be not. What is blatantly obvious, is that it is not cheap nor practical now, and its low cost of recharging is only low because it uses energy that is priced for domestic use and not charging cars, and such cheat will soon be corrected by the greed of our morons in charge. 
Is it practical for you? You say so and I believe you, yet it can hardly be so for others unless they live in peculiar circumstances.  
Most unconventional things we do, are not applicable to others. That is why I call them hobbies. My hobby is blacksmithing yet you will not hear me suggesting others make their own garden gates this way.

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## John2b

> Most unconventional things we do, are not applicable to others. That is why I call them hobbies. My hobby is blacksmithing yet you will not hear me suggesting others make their own garden gates this way.

  ...yet we _do_ hear you passing judgement on how others should behave, even when it is apparently outside of your experience and/or understanding.

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## r3nov8or

Oh dear. Where will it all end? 
Volkswagen cancels its most popular model  https://www.drive.com.au/news/volksw...popular-model/

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## Marc

Sounds like an attempt at "woke". Not to worry, buy a dozen wurst and have a barbeque with your family/neighbours to compensate  :Smilie: 
Burn some lawn clipping to make extra smoke for good measure

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## r3nov8or

IKEA's meatballs will be next

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## John2b

> IKEA's meatballs will be next

   I don't think they will do that before the launch of their flat pack electric car.

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## Bedford

*Drivers are challenging Victoria's electric vehicle tax, arguing it may be unconstitutional*  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...ourt/100466904   

> Victoria introduced the levy in July, which charges  road users based on how much they travel. Electric vehicle drivers are  charged between 2-2.5 cents per kilometre.  
> Lawyers  representing two drivers have filed documents with the High Court,  arguing Victoria does not have constitutional power to introduce the  tax.  
> Lawyer Jack McLean from Equity Generation  Lawyers said the constitution gave the power to levy consumption taxes  to the Commonwealth, not the states.

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## Bedford

> BTW I cannot make a round trip to the business centre on this "tiny island" without a battery recharge, and the road conditions are so bad I need light truck tires on the car. If I need to go to a hardware store, council office, library, garage, tire retailer, doctor, dentist, hospital, restaurant, chemist, crash repairer, real estate agent, newsagent, clothing shop, shoe shop, etc, etc, I need to recharge the car to get home,

  How long is the round trip?

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## johnc

> *Drivers are challenging Victoria's electric vehicle tax, arguing it may be unconstitutional*  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-...ourt/100466904

  Is it a consumption tax though? the answer will be with the High Court, it would appear to be a very narrow and specific argument. Does it differ substantially to a road toll, a fuel excise or petroleum volume royalty. The High court may refuse to hear the case, or deliver an outcome nobody expects. Watch with interest most decisions are a bit ho hum but this may startle the pigeons, I wouldn't be taking bets, one thing is for certain it will take some of our annual tax contributions to the Commonwealth.

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## John2b

> How long is the round trip?

  It's about 150km, but that is not the problem. Being off grid can't charge until the next sunny day, so keeping something in the tank is important. If grid connected would just charge overnight with cheap power and have full tank in the morning.

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## Bedford

> Is it a consumption tax though? the answer will be with the High Court, it would appear to be a very narrow and specific argument. Does it differ substantially to a road toll, a fuel excise or petroleum volume royalty. The High court may refuse to hear the case, or deliver an outcome nobody expects. Watch with interest most decisions are a bit ho hum but this may startle the pigeons, I wouldn't be taking bets, one thing is for certain it will take some of our annual tax contributions to the Commonwealth.

  It's only collecting revenue, but to me, defeats what they really want to achieve. 
Nothing new in that! :Biggrin:

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## Marc

> BTW I cannot make a round trip to the business centre on this "tiny island" without a battery recharge, and the road conditions are so bad I need light truck tires on the car. If I need to go to a hardware store, council office, library, garage, tire retailer, doctor, dentist, hospital, restaurant, chemist, crash repairer, real estate agent, newsagent, clothing shop, shoe shop, etc, etc, I need to recharge the car to get home
> .

  So basically, your car being electric in those particular circumstances is as practical as an inflatable dartboard ...  :Smilie:

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## johnc

> It's only collecting revenue, but to me, defeats what they really want to achieve. 
> Nothing new in that!

  The levy seems a counter productive move to me if you want to increase the uptake of electric cars. get the saturation level you have targeted then hit the public with a levy. If the aim is to pay for roads it would be nice if it didn't start with general revenue.

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## UseByDate

> The levy seems a counter productive move to me if you want to increase the uptake of electric cars. get the saturation level you have targeted then hit the public with a levy. If the aim is to pay for roads it would be nice if it didn't start with general revenue.

  Politicians like to introduce levies when it affects a small number of voters. They don't want to lose voters. Eventually the levy becomes accepted and nobody can remember who introduced it. So no lost votes.

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## Marc

It's called boiling the frog.  :Smilie:

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## PhilT2

> It's called boiling the frog.

  The boiling frog story is a myth; frogs are not that stupid. Voters on the other hand....

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## Forrestmount

IMO this is the most sensible approach finally getting some momentum. 
Australia will soon be home to the world's largest green energy hydrogen manufacturing facility https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-...tone/100527670 
A way to store the surplus unwanted power and keep cars that can be refuelled quickly.  
ro

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## Marc

> The boiling frog story is a myth; frogs are not that stupid. Voters on the other hand....

  It had to be you. 
Let's see, 'boiling the frog' ... is first and foremost a metaphor. Yes, a figure of speech like 'it's raining cats and dogs' ... it does not _need_ to be true.
 Therefore it is not a "myth"
Many authors much better known than myself have used the frog metaphor successfully. It's a simple way to describe among other things, the most disgraceful political strategies, like  40 years of unrelenting lies about global warming. Eventually someone will believe it and run to buy an electric car, regardless of the idiocy of the pretended gains. 
Only an ostrich would be able to ignore the usefulness of the frog metaphor.  And yes, te ostrich does not bury his head in the sand either.  
But ... when some people did experiment trying to duplicate the metaphor unsuccessfully, there are records of others who in fact did boil the frog . It's all in the speed the water is heated ... 7C per hour apparently does boil the frog.  
I leave it to you to enquire into the etymology of "raining cats and dogs" ... tell us what you find. I heard it is actually true.

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## PhilT2

> like  40 years of unrelenting lies about global warming.

  You're right; your opinion of global warming is just like the boiling frog metaphor. Both are total fabrications.

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## John2b

Where does 40 years come from? 165 years ago in 1856 the American Journal of Science and Arts published experiments documenting the heat trapping effect of CO2 gas in the sun's rays. Nearly 150 years ago in 1877 Boltzmann's constant, the application of which determines how much warming atmospheric greenhouse gases cause, had been calculated to a degree of accuracy that hasn't changed to today except in decimal points, and by 1896, 125 years ago, it had been estimated how much warming a doubling of atmospheric CO2 would cause. That projection of global warming hasn't been bettered, and is bang on target to being confirmed in just a few years by the great experiment we are all living through.
Oh I see, 40 years ago is about when the great climate change denial began  :Roflmao: .

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## Bros

Specsavers anyone.

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## Marc

The only fabrication I can see is the one of "zero" emissions. Should be called displaced emissions and relocated industrial pollution.
As for the metaphor being true of false, anyone can see that it does not need to be true. 
Like any illustration, it needs to convey a message. The boiling the frog illustrates deception, the ostrich effect is a cognitive bias to avoid negative information, both illustration are ancient and well known and useful to explain a psychological phenomenon.  
Boiling the frog, that is killing a frog by increasing the temperature of the water so slowly that the frog does not jump out even when it could, is possible. 
Despite the numerous party poopers who assure us it is not ... Edward Wheeler Scripture recounted this conclusion in The New Psychology (1897): "a *live frog can actually be boiled without a movement if the water is heated slowly enough*; in one experiment the temperature was raised at a rate of 0.002°C per second, and the frog was found dead at the end of 2½ hours without having ...  https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Boiling_frog  As for the ostrich, the origins of the metaphor is in attributing human like behaviour to an animal and use it as an illustration. Unlikely but effective proven illustration.  Someone cares to bust the "myth" of the fox and the grapes? Ohhh fox don't eat grapes... Or the scorpion and the frog? Aaaah scorpion and frog don't talk ... The man on the moon? There is no air on the moon ... Doh

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## Bart1080

> The only fabrication I can see is the one of "zero" emissions. Should be called displaced emissions and relocated industrial pollution.

  Correct to some degree as this is often a point overlooked and little transparency of just how much. 
Emissions aside, 
In my mind, the real positive is innovation and development of alternative technologies (electric, hydrogen).
Everything starts at rock bottom with lots of negatives and nay sayers but at at some stage there will be a positive benefit with this technology (what ever that may be to each individual). 
The new technologies and the energy systems will only exponentially improve in the next 10 years. 
 Would be nice to have an energy system where we are not beholden to some offshore government or entity.
Look at most things over the last 20 years and the progress to develop and improve has been phenomenal.....although some things old you just cant improve on with simplicity  reliability  :Smilie:  - my old fergi tractor is a classic example, so friggin easy to work on and repair unlike new models that may as well have a "DONT TOUCH, call serviceman repair Phonenumber" printed across the motor! 
Solar panels 20 years ago, most common panel size was 150w from memory and today we are seeing common sizes pushing 400w to 500w per panel.  Imagine what the car energy performance's will be with electric/Hydrogen in the next 10 to 20 years.

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## Marc

A nice thought. However we will most likely become slaves to electricity supply instead of petroleum. Every change prompted by the mega rich and followed by their lackey governments is designed to tie us down more not to give as more freedom.

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## John2b

There was enough science to start mass producing renewable energy equipment in the early 1970s, but the market dominant energy monopolies fought against it tooth and nail back then just as they still do today. 
The only reason I could think of way back then was that big business and their guvment lackeys don't like monopoly breaking renewable energy, where thousands as much energy as we can ever use is falling around our ears every day waiting to be put to use. 
Instead of encouraging local generation of electricity and/or energy saving like efficient motors, etc, both guvmints and industry actively campaigned to encourage increasing energy consumption. 
Even anti-electric vehicle Marc generates his own renewable electricity, but I don't suppose he has a coal mine, oil well or fracking rig in the back yard, let alone the processing and/or refinery necessary to turn those resources into something useful.

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## Marc

"Monopoly breaking renewable energy".
That is a classic oxymoron.  
Unless one is in the minority 1% of the population living in rural area, with the time and money to build large generator and battery banks, for the rest 99%, independence from the grid is utopic. For the simple reason that all urban solar generators are attached to the electricity supplier by the hip, and the moron consumer has strings attached to the limbs and dances at the music of the supplier puppeteer. When the generator cost is covered by the ever reducing rebates, it becomes obsolete or no longer working, and the cycle starts again. 
No "monopoly breaking", rather a side dish for the said monopoly.  
And the same it is for the electric car, that will most likely be obsolete before it becomes even remotely popular.   
Contrary to what the left wants us to believe, monopolies are not the exclusive realm of the evil oil industry, or the wicked coal industry, they are the product of opportunity. 
Give any person or group the opportunity to block all competition and he will take it. 
Examples abound.
Imagine a world that achieves the suppression of ordinary fuel vehicles, coal, oil, gas and wood centralising the production of the only allowed energy in one, electricity. This is the same energy required for homes, light, cooking (after demonising gas) and everything else. How do you call that? The fricken largest monopoly ever. 
Do you really think that even if you build your own generator you will be left at your own devices free like a bird?  Not for a minute. After enough fall in the "independence" trap, taxes will follow with any conceivable excuse whilst the price per KW keeps on going up because ... well any reason will be a good one. 
How about those poor sod who build their own dam for irrigation, filled by the rain that is free, yet have to pay for using their own water? 
Monopolies are a fact of life, and no Karl Marx call to arms nor Thomas More  inspired utopia will change that. 
Having said that, if someone offers a 4wd vehicle with 150 KW power, and autonomy of 500 km, priced same or cheaper than a Landcruiser, I am in for one. 
Meantime, all is good as it is. And when the power goes, that is rather often, I get to play with my Kubota diesel generator. Love it  
By the way good to see I woke you up from your slumber. Hope all is good in your corner of the woods. _ 
Libellus vere aureus, nec minus salutaris quam festivus, de optimo rei publicae statu deque nova insula Utopia,_ A little, true book, not less beneficial than enjoyable, about how things should be in a state and about the new island Utopia" 
A picture of the island of Utopia
 Utopia translate into "No place"

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## UseByDate

> There was enough science to start mass producing renewable energy equipment in the early 1970s, but the market dominant energy monopolies fought against it tooth and nail back then just as they still do today. 
> The only reason I could think of way back then was that big business and their guvment lackeys don't like monopoly breaking renewable energy, where thousands as much energy as we can ever use is falling around our ears every day waiting to be put to use. 
> Instead of encouraging local generation of electricity and/or energy saving like efficient motors, etc, both guvmints and industry actively campaigned to encourage increasing energy consumption. 
> Even anti-electric vehicle Marc generates his own renewable electricity, but I don't suppose he has a coal mine, oil well or fracking rig in the back yard, let alone the processing and/or refinery necessary to turn those resources into something useful.

  
 "Petrol is the ultimate in recycling" starts at 9 mins if you are time limited.
 Very funny view of the world. :Smilie:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivXI0Niifak

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## John2b

> By the way good to see I woke you up from your slumber. Hope all is good in your corner of the woods.

   Been here all along, just haven't had anything to contribute. Life's been good and since we have everything we need here, thank you, and our lives and home totally unaffected by Covid, lockdowns, shortages and bureaucracy. No petrol to buy, no electricity or water to pay for, don't even need toilet paper with a $27 bidet bought from Vietnam on fleaBay. And no, it's not time and/or money that gave us this, but simple choices that anyone can make. The only requirement is to abandon wilful blindness.

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## Bros

Never realised yanks had cars that were not suitable for their roads and were exported, I knew Japan did it. 
Anyhow an interesting article on end of life of electric car batteries and the problems waiting down the road.  https://www.wired.com/story/cars-goi...urce=flipboard

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## John2b

Who wudda thort, Moronison has finally worked out how to hold a hose and wants to show everyone how clever he is. It's an electric hose, and he hasn't worked he does't need to hold the hose while the electric car is filling, but it's a start.

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## Marc

If I wanted to support an idea like electric cars (I don't, just in case), I would talk about the technical advantages if I could find them (hardly any) and camouflage the problems   (I understand that to be very hard). Supporters of electric cars instead, appeal to emotions (a classic warmist strategy) or use falsehoods like "zero emissions". 
To say that the cable that charges the battery is a hose, and that the PM does not need to hold it, only highlights the lack of arguments that exist in favour of the electric car at this point in time.
You need to rethink your rhetoric to  spruik this hobby of yours. This kind of remarks does your cause no favours. 
I believe that to be a very nice photo of our PM.

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## UseByDate

> Who wudda thort, Moronison has finally worked out how to hold a hose and wants to show everyone how clever he is. It's an electric hose, and he hasn't worked he does't need to hold the hose while the electric car is filling, but it's a start.

  Poseur!

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## John2b

Frankly Marc, I wouldn't know another supporter of electric cars if I tripped over their extension cord. Being retired with no income, not claiming a pension and living off-grid on an island away from chardonnay sipping greenies and liberals, my electric car 'hobby' is driven by financial considerations. In 2 1/2 years of ownership our savings in running costs over an equivalent ICE vehicle are approaching $10,000. Whether electric cars had mechanical advantages/disadvantages over petrol or diesel engined cars wasn't a consideration before buying, but after owning one for a couple of years it is astoundingly clear why most people who currently own an electric vehicle won't consider buying another ICE vehicle. Maybe that's why every vehicle manufacturer in the world is phasing out ICE platforms. And the "lithium disposal problem" is a myth. Discarded BEV batteries have significant resale value for resource recovery; not so for the cumulative particulate emissions of a petrol or diesel powered vehicles and the 1-2,000 premature deaths caused by fossil powered vehicles every year in Australia.  *Which car brands are going all electric and when* https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...when/100529330

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## phild01

> *Which car brands are going all electric and when*   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...when/100529330

  I read through that earlier today and it left me with the impression mainstream manufacturers such as Ford, VW, Hyundai and Toyota are somewhat noncommittal to the EV world market to the exclusion of Europe. Toyota has hydrogen as their focus. Why these things cost double basicly comes down to the cost of an inadequate battery, if that ever gets resolved an EV should be far cheaper to make than an ICE vehicle.

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## Bart1080

> I wouldn't know another supporter of electric cars if I tripped over their extension cord.

   :Peace2:  :Peace2:  :Peace2: ...well if you weren't living on that fantasy island, you might trip over me!!!  :Smilie:  I'm a supporter not from a green perspective but as a new technology that will improve out of sight in the years to come.   If they can improve the energy storage - cost, weight, size, ...maybe battery composition its got to be a clear winner as a truly viable alternative for those that live within a couple of hours of a city and potentially something the owner can "refill" with solar on their roof.     

> And the "lithium disposal problem" is a myth. Discarded BEV batteries have significant resale value for resource recovery;

  reading a recent article (might have been on one of the links below), there are still significant issues forecast with managing the disposal/recycle of these materials once they are "dead" and cheaper to continue to dig the raw components....but as they reach the tipping point with large amounts to dispose, there will be economies of scale and some smart ideas on how to develop this side of the industry.

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## John2b

It is not the cost of the battery, which is already less than the cost of a transmission at point of manufacture, but simply economies of scale that make the current market price of BEVs high. Once BEV vehicles are manufactured and distributed in numbers approaching existing ICEs, the price disadvantage of manufacturing and assembling all the 1000s of moving parts needed to make an ICE work will bring on the end of ICEs even faster than Morison's election cycle epiphany.

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## phild01

> Once BEV vehicles are manufactured and distributed in numbers approaching existing ICEs, the price disadvantage of manufacturing and assembling all the 1000s of moving parts needed to make an ICE work will bring on the end of ICEs even faster than Morison's election cycle epiphany.

  Not until the EV battery becomes fit for purpose.

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## John2b

Actual implementation of battery technology for BEVs will improve out of sight. In a decade or so there will be lighter, cheaper batteries made from abundantly occurring natural materials with 10 times the energy density of current lithium technology, and 100 times faster charge capability. The physics for these 'new' batteries is old hat; it's only the staggeringly high fossil fuel industry subsidies estimated to be around US$5trillion annually that has stymied the research of deployable of inexpensive alternative energy systems and development of practical applications.

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## John2b

It's odd how people who do not own and have not driven a BEV know so much about what is "wrong" with them.

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## phild01

> Actual implementation of battery technology for BEVs will improve out of sight. In a decade or so there will be lighter, cheaper batteries made from abundantly occurring natural materials with 10 times the energy density of current lithium technology, and 100 times faster charge capability. The physics for these 'new' batteries is old hat; it's only the staggeringly high fossil fuel industry subsidies estimated to be around US$5trillion annually that has stymied the research of deployable of inexpensive alternative energy systems and development of practical applications.

  Sounds like crystal ball stuff, what makes you know battery technology is going to take such a flying leap.   

> It's odd how people who do not own and have not driven a BEV know so much about what is "wrong" with them.

  only the battery and price.

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## Bros

> In a decade or so there will be lighter, cheaper batteries made from abundantly occurring natural materials with 10 times the energy density of current lithium technology, and 100 times faster charge capability.

  So that is the new yet to be invented technology Morrison is talking about, thanks for clearing that up.

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## John2b

> Sounds like crystal ball stuff, what makes you know battery technology is going to take such a flying leap.

   

> So that is the new yet to be invented technology Morrison is talking about, thanks for clearing that up.

  It's already happened - production facilities for new battery technologies are currently being constructed in several countries. The way that BEV traction batteries are assembled from hundreds of small standardised sized cells means that changing battery technology does not require re-engineering of the vehicle.  
The University of Sydney has taken decades old flow battery technology and made it suitable for BEVs by replacing the electrolyte with a gel. These low cost batteries made from common materials are going into commercial production now. https://gelion.com 
University of Queensland has developed cells made of common graphene and aluminium with hugely improved charge rates and energy densities compared to li-ion. These are going into production now. https://graphenemg.com 
The major European car manufacturers have invested heavily in solid state and silicon based technology development which should be in BEV cars before the end of the decade. These new cells offer n capacity and charge rates vastly above current Li-ion technology. https://www.industryweek.com/technol...illion-by-2028 
Toyota is investing US$13.5 billion in production facilities to make solid state batteries globally including US$3.4 billion on the US with production scheduled for 2025: https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/co...000.1636574972 
The price of the battery in an EV dropped by a factor of 10 between in then years from 2010 to 2020. That's from about ~$1300 per kWh to ~$130 per kWh. Li-ion batteries still have a long way to go with research demonstrating ~ten times the energy storage per weight of current designs. https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0824135339.htm

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## Marc

Yes, in "the future" all cars will fly, 
In fact I am training right now for teleportation.  
There are two main reasons that some people consider electric cars. 
They are clean to manufacture and to run.
And the recharging of batteries is cheap or even free. 
Both are fallacies.  
And yes, I don't need to own an electric car to know it is an industrial scale lemon.
Like most of the other "environmentally friendly" fallacies ... minus some few honorable exceptions. 
Hydrogen on the other hand may prove to be the way to go. Some large scale mining equipment made today, use modified diesel engines running on hydrogen.
After all the problem with current vehicles is the fuel and not the car. 
The fact that some car manufacturers are taking to the fad, does not mean it is the way to go. It is the way for them to make money from eager customers. Whatever customers want, is "the way to go". 
Invent a foe (CO2) and repeat it long enough with tearful emotions and you will have customers to buy anything at all. 
I am still waiting for this elusive global warming. May need to let go a few more like Joe Biden.
Don't you find it curious how we went from global warming to "climate change" and from CO2 to CH4? 
I wonder what is next. 
PS
Since methane is such a terrible danger to "the planet", why don't we accumulate it and run cars with it?
Could have CH4 accumulators in milking stations, public toilets and parliaments around the world, compress it and distribute the bottles free of charge in order to save the planet. Greta could be the new methane face to promote it.  :2thumbsup:

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## Bros

As I said new yet to be invented technology. Almost every night I see on the news this or that new treatment for cancer or some other ailment  but it goes nowhere just a method to get more grant money. This is no different I will be convinced when I see them in numbers on the road.  
Then there is fusion technology which is new technology for power generation since the 50’s and nothing has happened.

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## elver

Im with John2b on the economics. 
Im at least $5k ahead per annum with my electric car.  
It does daily commuter and runs 150km round trips at 110km/hr 3 days a week.  It also does 400km day trips too. Its the go to car for all of our driving as its sooo much cheaper to run.  
Given fuel prices my friends are now very interested from a $ point of view and from a performance point of view. (The acceleration is amazing and way better than any $30k car Ive ever owned before)  
Funnily enough a core driver for some is the super crisp phone sound on hands free. The lack of road noise means that conversations while driving are way better for both ends of the line.  
These things all add up - its not one core driver like carbon consciousness only, but the sum of many things aligning. Now most of my friends are saying my next car will be electric.  
The nay sayers will keep saying nay, but in the end $5k of school lunches is a lot for a family. If you dont want the spare money dont buy an electric car!  ( the fewer on the road the later I will have to pay the stupid road tax that will be levied by NSW).  
Oh and for then coal lovers out there - charging at night will keep our ancient tech coal plants running for a few more decades. The future peak power time will extend as more and more people charge after the run home from work.

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## Marc

Oh yes, so true. Remember when solar panels had a feed in tariff of 65c?
It's now down to 6c
Do you really think that you will be running for cheap for much longer?
Tip ... no, electricity will be adjusted to be similar to fuel. The more electric cars, the higher the electricity to recharge. Eventually all the electric cars will do is inflate the price of even domestic electricity. 
And the "stupid" road tax is just to compensate for the excise paid by the rest of drivers. 
I wonder how many school lunches you can buy with the cost of replacing a battery? “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect.” -_Mark Twain._ 
Kumbaya  :2thumbsup:

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## phild01

> _10 times the energy density of current lithium technology, and 100 times faster charge capability._

   

> It's already happened - production facilities for new battery technologies are currently being constructed in several countries.

  I only saw marketing hype in the linked information and not much else to support your claim. The best I gleaned was twice the energy capacity of current 'off the shelf' lithium-ion, that being in a state of early development. Maybe I didn't spend enough time looking through it all so perhaps you can point me to that detail better if I have missed it.

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## John2b

Read what the energy density of a current L-ion battery is and compare with the new implementations of batteries. Read what the current charge rates are and what the new technologies are capable of. You are not going to find all this information in one report on one site. I'm not here to have an online argument and what is factual information. I posted some of the sites which detail the gist of the claims I made and there are plenty of other sites with more. 
You shouldn't expect responses if you are too lazy to do your own reading. Posting specifics causes accusations of cherry-picking; spoon-feeding the sites which detail the implementation of existing technologies isn't good enough either.

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## phild01

> Posting specifics causes accusations of cherry-picking; spoon-feeding the sites which detail the implementation of existing technologies isn't good enough either. You shouldn't expect responses if you are too lazy to do your own reading.

  John, you made the statement and it needs backing up, not for me to find the evidence to support it. In fact I was hoping your statement's claim is on the horizon, that's what I would want to eventuate too. It is fairly common knowledge better battery designs are in the pipeline but that has been the case for many years now.     

> In a decade or so there will be lighter, cheaper batteries made from abundantly occurring natural materials *with**10 times the energy density of current lithium technology, and 100 times faster charge capability.*

   

> Sounds like crystal ball stuff, what makes you know battery technology is going to take such a flying leap..

   

> It's already happened - production facilities for new battery technologies are currently being constructed in several countries.

  You may have a way of not being contextual but I will take your words literally.

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## elver

Mark,  Im a bit confused. I didnt mention feed in tariffs or house batteries. I dont, and wont,  use a house battery. It doesnt make economic sense. They also have an atrocious rate of failure. (Seek out the battery test centre reports)  
The economics of an electric car comes from not buying fuel from a petrol station. When I pay 60c a Kw hour from a commercial charger its still cheaper than driving my diesel car. 
When I fill with full peak price coal electricity at home its cheaper again. When I fuel with off peak coal power even cheaper. And then when I fuel with oversupplied mid day solar its even cheaper.  
My feed in tariff has NOTHING to do with it. (Which I might say remains at 20c for now and of course will vary.  I dont care if it drops to 5c. It will change in the further again. Its a market and its made to vary with market forces) 
The reason for my post was to clarify that John2bs special circumstances are not the only place where electric cars make sense. It also makes sense in mainland suburban rural Australia - and thats from a purely economic standpoint. No friggin kumbya here!  Just raw capitalism and market economics. 
And the cars work just fine.    
Ill be keeping my diesel car for some time too. It will be quite a while before electric vehicles that can tow what I need to tow are competitively priced.

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## Marc

The battery technology is still primitive for practical purposes in cars. 
Can it be improved? Sure.
Does it matter? Not much, all it means is that the electric cars can run for longer, however it still runs on electric power generated by coal. 
It still pollutes to manufacture in country of origin that has abismal environmental and ethical rules.
It pollutes by proxy to recharge.
It still pollutes to dispose of after it's ephemeral life. 
Unless you leave in a cocoon, have a second or third car, and can plug the car in to charge in one day? half a day? one hour? whatever it is, it is not the one minute you need to refill a tank with fuel.
  So it is still a hobby. Look at mee, look at mee, I have an eclectic car !!
And the fuel is still coal.
Not that it matters mind you. The specter of CO2 doom is a political fabrication that will make for folclore humor in the not too distant future.
Remember when the whole world united to reduce CO2?  :Rofl5: 
And it was all a marketing campaign to reassign power and assets.  
I think that an electric car is suited for an energetic nanny that still drives and uses it to do 5Km to the shops and 7 km once a week to go to church. 
A horse and sulky would be even better.

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## elver

Nope, thats not my experience Marc. I actually drive one, often doing a really solid 150km commute.  
This isnt nanny territory.  
Its way better than a horse and sulky and is still better than my diesel car.  
Your choosing dogma over data gained by personal experience.

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## Marc

> Mark,  I'm a bit confused. I didn’t mention feed in tariffs or house batteries. .

  No need to be confused. 
"Green" initiatives are notorious for achieving nothing and cost a lot.
Electric cars are one, but not the first one.
We had school halls, pink batts and solar panels before them.
The incentive for solar was .... drum roll ... ten fold feed in tariffs.  How good is solar panels now? Not so good, yet it has a massive inertia with the push with yet more money thrown at them even when the goal post keeps on changing. And ... like you correctly mention, don't get me going with batteries.
The electric car is more of the same.
Enjoy till it lasts. I don't doubt your personal experience. I say it is a con by proxy. 
Electric cars exists based on a false and unproven hypothesis that co2 is harmful and that they will reduce the production of CO2.
Leaving aside the fact that CO2 is actually beneficial, electric cars do nothing to reduce CO2 emissions since it is electricity production that needs to swithc and not cars. Electric cars just move the so called pollution elsewhere. 
Until you need to take them to the local tip. 
Don't get me wrong, I still think they can be fun. I would like to convert my quad to electric. But that will not "save the planet" ... and when everyone has cars that run on electricity, can you guess the price to recharge them, and to heat and cool your house at the same time?
I rather not think about that.

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## elver

Marc, Im not confused by the concepts. Im confused by your responses and the leaps you take to get discussion around to your ideas and dogma.  
I poked my nose in here today to say hey all, ignore the green washing. Electric cars make economic sense on a personal scale right now.   
Your tangents and firm opinions, whilst interesting postulation, are not why Im here today.  
Im off for my nana nap in my tree hugging electric waste of time which doesnt work, cause Marc says so. Lol!

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## Marc

Ha ha ... hope you enjoy your siesta. Not such a bad think. 
As far as "me" saying so, you give me too much credit.  :Smilie:    
Is the future electric?
Not really https://youtu.be/19Q7nAYjAJY https://www.vox.com/energy-and-envir...hytech-storage 
Meantime in the electric car (dream) world
This is what I need if I want to go electric on my model 70 
Woohoo ... can I have two of them?    *Voltra*  Australian company Voltra will convert your 70 Series LandCruiser utility into a full-electric vehicle. Australian company Voltra has targeted the mining industry, where, for an even $200,000, [plus the cost of the cruiser] they’ll convert your 70 Series LandCruiser utility into a full-electric vehicle. These 4x4 EVs feature a single-speed transmission, but the 4x4 capabilities are retained for when conditions get a little more off-road. *  
People who enjoy the taste and sensation of dust in their teeth no doubt get a lot of joy out of tearing over wild terrain in their ATV or UTV, but nothing quite beats the combination of convenience, capability and toughness that you get from a full-sized off-road 4x4.*  So far, however, if you want a vehicle like this but are determined to save the planet at the same time by choosing an electric powertrain, your options are somewhat limited, at least in Australia. But that will change. There are certain four-wheel-drive (4WD) snobs who’d liken driving an electric 4WD to piloting a battery-operated, remote-controlled Traxxas car, but the prejudice is uncalled for: Electric Vehicles (EVs) have the grunt and torque to match any internal-combustion-engine (ICE) vehicle, and the technology in them is only getting better.  All-Wheel-Drive (AWD) is similar to 4WD in that power can be used for both the front and rear wheels for maximum traction, but 4WD is the only one of the two options that has serious off-road capabilities - in this article, we’ll be focusing solely on the latter.  *Read more about electric cars*   The pros and cons of electric carsWho builds batteries for electric cars? EV battery manufacturers explainedElectric car battery warranties explained   *The 4WD electric vehicle in Australia*  Currently if you want an electric 4WD in Australia, your options are quite limited.     First, it’s important to know that currently there are two main contenders when it comes to the 4WD electric car: conversions, which are petrol or diesel vehicles that have been modified to EVs thanks to a conversion kit, and ground-up electric 4WD vehicles that are designed as EVs from the get-go.  At the moment conversions are only available for commercial use on large private grounds, and not the consumer market. Ground-up 4WD EVs are only for sale from specialist start-ups rather than established car manufacturers at this stage, but this will likely change in the not-too-distant future.  With the popularity of EVs set to increase drastically over the coming years, it will only be a matter of time before mainstream car brands are mass-producing electric 4WD vehicles. And indeed, one of the most famous in this field, Hummer, is not far off doing so. Until that time comes, here’s what’s available, globally, and what’s eventually coming to a showroom near you.   *GMC Hummer*  The Hummer EV has a ‘crab mode’ that allows it to drive diagonally. GMC are throwing down the gauntlet and giving petrol and diesel-powered V8 4x4s a serious run for their money with a Hummer EV pick-up truck with a driving range of more than 560km from a 200kWh battery and an engine that delivers a whopping 2033Nm of torque. Read that again - two Newton kilometres of torque - it should be able to tow any reasonably sized planet. Excellently, the Hummer EV has a ‘crab mode’ that allows it to drive diagonally, and an off-road 'extract mode' can raise the air suspension approximately 15cm, giving the armoured undercarriage extra clearance. It goes on-sale in the US this year - and an EV SUV will follow in 2023 - but currently no plans have been announced to release either model in Australia.

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## John2b

Phil, both the claims are supported by the links I already provided, but I can't read those links for you. One link mentions 60 time faster charging, but the actual number depends on what is taken for a baseline. I have read 100 times on other battery development sites, and frankly both 60 and 100 are near enough to an order of magnitude in improvement. Energy densities are documented for different batteries on different sites. As I said you actually have to do some reading and do your own maths. Ten times more energy density is possible in new batteries for which the manufacturing plants are being built now, not in the future, other huge increases over and above that have been demonstrated in research facilities, so the ten times capacity in the next decade is the beginning, not the end. 
I don't need to endorse any of these technologies, I am just an observer. You can't claim these are pie in the sky future technologies when the factories to mass produce them are under construction and the car manufacturers are designing cars around them. 
For example Musk is putting money into structural batteries, which are solid state batteries that are shaped as structural parts of the vehicle instead of being in a seperate battery pack. There are obvious cost, weight and range implications. That doesn't mean they will win the technology war. It's interesting how the public perception that fossil energies are no longer fashionable has unleashed such a massive research effort, much of which is on decades old science that's been stuffed at the back of the filing cabinet whilst the fossil energy companies creamed up on government subsidies, concessional rebates, free roads, free ports, free land, etc. Renewable energy subsidies have been a few drops in the bucket of total energy subsidies.

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## MeasureTwice

> Yes, in "the future" all cars will fly, 
> PS
> Since methane is such a terrible danger to "the planet", why don't we accumulate it and run cars with it?
> Could have CH4 accumulators in milking stations, public toilets and parliaments around the world, compress it and distribute the bottles free of charge in order to save the planet. Greta could be the new methane face to promote it.

    
Time to sign up Marc

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## Marc

I want one  :Smilie:

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## UseByDate

#Me Too

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## Marc

I wonder if it comes with a soya chino machine?

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## r3nov8or

Cup holders are now for cans of baked beans  :Smilie:

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## Marc

Or packets of soya bean sprouts baked in an air fryer?

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## Bedford

*Rivian promised the electric ute. Here's why Wall Street is betting on it taking on Tesla*  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-...tock/100613612

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## Uncle Bob

https://insideevs.com/news/524156/te...xceed-1250000/ 
With Amazon being a major shareholder, that's a great reason to give Rivian a miss.

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## John2b

"Rivian is listed on one of the largest IPOs ever" with just 55,000 pre-orders. Go figure...  https://salesground.org/rivian-is-li...gest-ipos-ever

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## Marc

Jeff Bezos is not stupid. If he bets on Rivian, he will most likely get his money worth in the transaction.
What does that mean for the electric car?
Not much there for me. So far I learned that my car will cost $200,000 more to go electric.
Will Rivian be cheaper?
Probably or they will be a flop. 
To go the expensive truck route is clever. You start with a car that people are prepared to pay $150,000 for the diesel version. Most likely there is more buffer to add electric stuff and come out on pair or close.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqR-a2nqXdg
70k to 90k US ?  :Thumbup1: 
Not bad. 
No dealers, means 'mobile' service ...  :Tdown: 
No bullbar, no towbar, no winch, no recovery points, no left hand drive?  :Tdown: 
3.3 tn empty? :Tdown:  
4Wdriving is unforgiving. 3.3 ton plus load? on sand, mud or snow?  ... better stay home. 
Still a good effort.

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## Marc

Rivian goes rock crawling in Utah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeth5v_5dPM

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## r3nov8or

> Rivian goes rock crawling in Utah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yeth5v_5dPM

  The video after that (in my feed anyway) was a 2019 Kia Sorento doing it. Rename it to Pussy Cat Gate  :Biggrin:

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## Marc

Yes, you can say it looks worse than it is. As much as it is steep, it does not demand extreme flex and provides good grip with solid monolithic stone. 
Still it is a good effort for the electric 4wd. The high weight of the Rivian does not affect this climb. A mud pit or sand dunes would be a different proposition

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## John2b

> No dealers, means 'mobile' service ...

  73,000 km on the clock and our BEV hasn't needed service yet, well unless topping up the washer water qualifies as service. The rough roads around here mean we have changed to light truck tires to reduce punctures, but that isn't related to it being a BEV.

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## phild01

"The debate surrounding whether or not it EVs are any greener to manufacture compared to ICE vehicles will likely continue. There are arguments to support both sides, but if you ask Volvo, it will tell you making an EV pollutes far more than a vehicle running an internal combustion engine."  https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/building-an-ev-produces-70-more-emissions-than-ice-says-volvo/ar-AAQVNAu?ocid=msedgntp

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## Uncle Bob

> "The debate surrounding whether or not it EVs are any greener to manufacture compared to ICE vehicles will likely continue. There are arguments to support both sides, but if you ask Volvo, it will tell you making an EV pollutes far more than a vehicle running an internal combustion engine."  https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/building-an-ev-produces-70-more-emissions-than-ice-says-volvo/ar-AAQVNAu?ocid=msedgntp

  I'd guess they would be similar but it would be difficult to measure exactly. Of course EV's would be a lot greener going forward if they are going to be charged by renewable energy sources.

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## phild01

I put that up as I would not think Volvo had any reason to exaggerate and it was the battery that made the pollution difference. So frustrating that the battery remains the achilles heel of the EV going forward. That and the ability to supply them with non polluting energy. I can't see much will change within my life.

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## Uncle Bob

> I can't see much will change within my life.

  Depends on how much life your got left Phil. Tesla are hard out developing better cells. Then there's always Super capacitors and Fusion which both seem to be perpetually just around the corner.

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## Bros

Today I went to get fuel and I was there for a total 0f 15 min and I got enough fuel for 600klm travel. Now you can't get anything near this with EV even with fast chargers. With more charging stations the gov is advocating being built if they were of the fast charge variety it would need a considerable upgrade of the electrical infrastructure.  
The service station I went to had 6 ULP pumps and for anything similar you will need many more in the one place and a security workforce on hand to stop the punch ups while people are sucking on the power and it would take a lot longer than 15 min. 
EV's would be an advantage if you lived in a city and just commuted daily and could come home of a night and use coal fired electricity to recharge the battery overnight. 
An EV would suit me a a second car but I would need to have a long distance car and EV's can't do that.

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## r3nov8or

> "The debate surrounding whether or not it EVs are any greener to manufacture compared to ICE vehicles will likely continue. There are arguments to support both sides, but if you ask Volvo, it will tell you making an EV pollutes far more than a vehicle running an internal combustion engine."  https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/building-an-ev-produces-70-more-emissions-than-ice-says-volvo/ar-AAQVNAu?ocid=msedgntp

  Interesting, considering Volvo's recent ad campaign that they are going fully electric

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## phild01

I had forgotten about hydrogen fuel cells for automotive use and kept thinking of it as a fuel for combustion. I was just reading, in my state's NRMA Open Road Nov/Dec, about Hyundai's commitment to hydrogen and it reminded me back. Anyway they believe hydrogen can do things EV's can't, ie match the range and refueling time of diesel powered vehicles, and cite their Xcient truck operating in Switzerland. It went on to  say the hydrogen fuel cell stack produces electricity with some stored by a battery for extra power under acceleration. I had heard of this technology before but mistakenly thought a hydrogen vehicle was a combustion beast, not of an electric motor type. The hydrogen storage is by way of a tank far stronger than an lpg tank being made up of fibreglass, carbon fibre and aluminium storing at 700bar or 10,000psi. 
Some other comment: https://www.carsguide.com.au/urban/n...-hyundai-81063

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## John2b

> "The debate surrounding whether or not it EVs are any greener to manufacture compared to ICE vehicles will likely continue. There are arguments to support both sides, but if you ask Volvo, it will tell you making an EV pollutes far more than a vehicle running an internal combustion engine."

  What debate? The extra CO2 emissions in BEV manufacture of ~3 tons per vehicle is offset in about the the first year or sooner, even if coal-fired electricity is used to charge the BEV. 
This thread is like a badly scratched record; the same old misinformation just keeps going 'round and 'round. It doesn't matter if coal is used to generate the electricity for BEVs, they will still use less way fossil fuel per kilometre. A typical ICE car produces ~4.5 tons of CO2 per year; an equivalent BEV doing the same distance from 0 tons if powered off renewable energy to to ~2 tons if powered off coal fired electricity. 
Our savings on fuel and servicing for the past 2 1/2 years now add up to ~$8000. YMMV  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## phild01

> What debate? The extra CO2 emissions in BEV manufacture of ~3 tons per vehicle is offset in about the the first year or sooner, even if coal-fired electricity is used to charge the BEV. 
> This thread is like a badly scratched record; the same old misinformation just keeps going 'round and 'round. It doesn't matter if coal is used to generate the electricity for BEVs, they will still use less way fossil fuel per kilometre. A typical ICE car produces ~4.5 tons of CO2 per year; an equivalent BEV doing the same distance from 0 tons if powered off renewable energy to to ~2 tons if powered off coal fired electricity. 
> Our savings on fuel and servicing for the past 2 1/2 years now add up to ~$8000. YMMV

  John, what I put up was simply the findings of Volvo and a statement of fact. That is not stopping their pursuit of making EV's. The bigger question is providing non polluting energy en masse. 
As per my follow up post, I find Hyundai's approach appealing but may not gain traction due to the current EV infrastructure. *We may be missing out on the ideal alternative!*

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## Bros

> The bigger question is providing non polluting energy en masse.

   Don't worry about that new technology will prevail.

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## Marc

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that car manufacturers exist to make money for shareholders, not to care for the environment. 
If they perceive a market of consumers eager to feel good by thinking they save the planet with a particular purchase, the car maker will oblige and magnify any real or imaginary difference.  
I find the statement by Volvo refreshingly honest. Clearly the analist have found that telling the truth in this particular instance holds some advantage. 
Tomorrow the advice may be to say that electric cars, make bald man grow hair. 
I find the various self appointed experts in assorted media announcing the dead of the internal combustion engine by 2025 extremely funny. 
I remember when GM was working on an electric car back in the sixties. Many failed attempts later, the purchase department ordered a Horse trough, to the general amusement of staff. The trough was a safety measure for workers handling large acid batteries to have somewhere to jump in, in case of an accident. The irony however, was not lost. 
Not long after the EV was scrapped. 
Things we do ... 
PS
I notice that GM has kept the trough all this years and found a use for it finally  https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/...%20Recent.html

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## Marc

And for those with a vestige of real environmental concern above the doctrine, all that talk about electric cars being "clean". 
Here is one issue, batteries disposal. Not the manufacture of the car, not the erection of the monstrosities that are supposed to produce all that "clean" energy to charge them, and everything else that goes with this gargantuan fallacy. 
Just one simple issue, the disposal or recycling of one component, the battery.
Can you imagine when this is multiplied by millions upon millions all around the world?
Give me an internal combustion engine any time of the week.  
Make it diesel.   https://www.theepochtimes.com/used-c...s_4106356.html 
Industry data shows that the service life of lithium batteries used in electric vehicles is generally 5 to 8 years, and the service life under warranty is 4 to 6 years. That means, tens of thousands of electric car batteries will soon need to be discarded or recycled, and millions more down the road. According to the latest data from China Automotive Technology and Research Center, the cumulative decommissioning of China’s electric car batteries reached 200,000 tons in 2020 and the figure is estimated to climb to 780,000 tons by 2025.  Presently, most end-of-life batteries are traded in the unregulated black market, raising serious environmental concerns. If such batteries are not handled properly, they could cause soil, air, and water pollution. “A 20-gram cell phone battery can pollute a water body equivalent to three standard swimming pools. If it is buried in the ground, it can pollute 1 square kilometer (247 acres) of land for about 50 years,” Wu Feng, a professor at Beijing Institute of Technology, once publicly stated. Electric car batteries are many times larger than cell phone batteries.

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## Bart1080

...I've been of the view for some time to remain neutral as its pointless entering into circular debates on the "greenness or not" of various existing or new solutions.
Its an impossible question/view to definitively answer due to incomplete or biased reports from the various players - energy source, manufactures, marketing spin, so called experts, government agenda's etc etc (oil - H20, electric, wind, solar, hydro etc etc) 
I'd welcome an unbiased analysis looking the whole of life from birth to grave for various solutions however there are 2 key impediments that will never see such a report being produced:
1.  interpretation and definition of whats "better" that looks at the complete birth the grave life-cycle.
2.  unbiased with no agenda's.  
So these days its just lets see where each solution, technology and innovation takes us with more options on the table, different challenges to resolve for each path and hopefully some savings to the end consumer.
If there are other flow-on benefits, then they are just the icing on the cake....what ever they might be  :Smilie: 
At the end of the day, I find it interesting from a technology and innovation view point.

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## Bart1080

...and speaking of innovation, a hydrogen bike.
Possibilities to have hydrogen change over cylinders similar to our gas BBQ bottles or change over batteries in India. 
...probably the ugliest looking bike I've ever seen though.   :Smilie:   https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/...ke-technology/

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## Whitey66

> ...and speaking of innovation, a hydrogen bike.
> Possibilities to have hydrogen change over cylinders similar to our gas BBQ bottles or change over batteries in India. 
> ...probably the ugliest looking bike I've ever seen though.    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/...ke-technology/

  There would be no issues with "range anxiety" with that e-bike. By the look of the seat you would be lucky to sit on it for more than 10 minutes without getting monkey butt or a sore gooch .

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## John2b

> John, what I put up was simply the findings of Volvo and a statement of fact.

  The snip wasn't from Volvo, it was a tidbit, taken without context, out of a 50 page report. The word "debate" is not even used in the cited report. The Volvo Carbon Footprint Report that compared its XC40 BEV car to its XC40 ICE car, which concluded that over its full life cycle:  The carbon footprint shows a great reduction in greenhouse gas emissions compared to that of an internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicle
The study did not consider the reduction in CO2 emissions if the traction battery has a proportion of recycled material; their study assumes 100% virgin resources used to create the battery, and Volvo acknowledged that will change when recovery of lithium resources from end of life BEV vehicles becomes mainstream.

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## phild01

> The snip wasn't from Volvo, it was a tidbit, taken without context, out of a 50 page report. The word "debate" is not even used in the cited report. The Volvo Carbon Footprint Report that compared its XC40 BEV car to its XC40 ICE car, which concluded that over its full life cycle...

  So you are saying it wasn't something Volvo evaluated. Anyway I probably care little about the pedantics of how the statement is viewed. And why are you so focused on the word debate, it is hardly that relevant to what was being conveyed. 
I am now more concerned that if Hyundai is right, all the proponents of the battery driven EV in their haste have destroyed opportunity for a better outcome.

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## John2b

No Phil, I didn't say it wasn't something Volvo evaluated; what I said is what I actually said. I even added the diagram from Volvo's report that shows where that tidbit of information came from. 
There's a couple of hurdles for hydrogen. To hold as much energy as petrol or diesel, liquid hydrogen needs three times the net volume, plus the extra volume of the insulated pressurised containment vessel that holds the hydrogen at -253ºC to keep it in liquid form. Secondly, hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is very inefficient, and even the cycle of electrolysing hydrogen and then recovering electricity in a fuel cell is grossly inefficient compared to battery storage, so you need a lot more electricity to run a hydrogen power vehicle than an electric one. Fuel cells are not particularly adaptive to changing loads, so fuel cells in vehicles are usually used in conjunction with a traction battery. Thirdly, refuelling with hydrogen is not like filling a car with petrol or diesel. In Japan the hydrogen stations are essentially robotic to mitigate the risks of explosion during refuelling, and they literally cost a bomb. There's also the distribution cost of hydrogen to consider.

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## John2b

> I'd welcome an unbiased analysis looking the whole of life from birth to grave for various solutions however there are 2 key impediments that will never see such a report being produced:
> 1.  interpretation and definition of whats "better" that looks at the complete birth the grave life-cycle.
> 2.  unbiased with no agenda's.

   This is pretty much the report you are looking for, a compendium of nearly 450 pages: 
Alternative Fuels for Transportation, Frank Kreith Series Editor. 
It doesn't do cradle to grave analyses, which because technology changes so fast are out of date by the time they are published. However the pitfalls and benefits are explored for a dozen or so different schemes for providing energy for transport.  https://books.google.com.au/books?id...Editor&f=false

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## phild01

Yes I know of the hydrogen issues but Hyundai seem to believe they can be overcome. Their tanks are designed for high pressure containment and the additional battery is small compared to what a battery ev has. As I see it, if they are right  it beats the pants of a BEV in terms of pollution and amenity to the user. But I don't know a lot about the fuel cell environmental concerns or what they might be.

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## phild01

I have wondered about hydrogen for decades but resigned my feeling to the consensus of opinion. But then I wonder why is transporting it such an issue. It could be locally made using remotely located solar farms. The hydrogen could be piped as leakage isn't much of a problem as unlike other gases it rises.

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## John2b

The problem with piping hydrogen is that being the smallest atom in the universe, it gets through the smallest gaps. Plumbing that contains other gases like oxygen, nitrogen, or even helium, can leak hydrogen.

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## phild01

> The problem with piping hydrogen is that being the smallest atom in the universe, it gets through the smallest gaps. Plumbing that contains other gases like oxygen, nitrogen, or even helium, can leak hydrogen.

  Maybe not so much of a problem as you say: 
"Gaseous hydrogen can be transported through pipelines much the way natural gas is today. Approximately 1,600 miles of hydrogen pipelines are currently operating in the United States."  https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcell...ogen-pipelines

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## John2b

From the link: 
Research today therefore focuses on overcoming technical concerns related to pipeline transmission, including:  
The potential for hydrogen to embrittle the steel and welds used to fabricate the pipelines
The need to control hydrogen permeation and leaks
The need for lower cost, more reliable, and more durable hydrogen compression technology. 
Here's another link, without the rose coloured glasses:  *Does the Hydrogen Economy Have a Pipeline Problem?* *Manufacturing hydrogen from renewable energy sounds great, but there are significant limitations to transporting hydrogen fuels.*  https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/...e-problem.aspx

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## phild01

> From the link: 
> Research today therefore focuses on overcoming technical concerns related to pipeline transmission, including:  
> The potential for hydrogen to embrittle the steel and welds used to fabricate the pipelines
> The need to control hydrogen permeation and leaks
> The need for lower cost, more reliable, and more durable hydrogen compression technology. 
> Here's another link, without the rose coloured glasses:  *Does the Hydrogen Economy Have a Pipeline Problem?* *Manufacturing hydrogen from renewable energy sounds great, but there are significant limitations to transporting hydrogen fuels.*  https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/...e-problem.aspx

  
From the link: "Potential solutions include using fiber reinforced polymer (FRP) pipelines for hydrogen distribution. The installation costs for FRP pipelines are about 20% less than that of steel pipelines because the FRP can be obtained in sections that are much longer than steel,1,2 minimizing welding requirements."

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## phild01

> Here's another link, without the rose coloured glasses:

  Who's wearing purple coloured glasses now!

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## Marc

This is a real classic. 
So ... we have a concerted effort by the string pulling elite, in creating a boogie man, the "bad" CO2. 
Once the false data and dubious evidence is included in the doctrine, anyone shining a light on the myth, is labeled a "denier" 
The few sources of cheap energy demonised and new moronic and ultra expensive sources subsidised at taxpayers expenses. 
Next, frantic attempts at suppressing at all cost the extreme new pollution created to mount this parade of idiotic initiatives that line the pockets of the very elite that initiated the anti CO2 doctrine. 
Anyone pointing at that evidence is a denier. 
As a consequence of the above, electricity cost climbs to unprecedented levels. 
What comes next is kafkaesque; with the same shameless pretenses of altruism and environmentalism, we now have the same elite promoting ultra expensive, extremely polluting luxury vehicles that will not only produce much higher pollution to be made, but untold and irreversible pollution when batteries and other component arrive to the end of their ephemeral life. 
But wait, that's not all, all this electric appliances will need charging with the same electricity that thanks to the promoters of "green" crap is already unaffordable. What will millions of batteries sucking power from the grid do? 
Answer, make electricity even more unaffordable. 
Oh, but fear not, the elite have the answer lined up. Build charging stations at taxpayers expenses in shopping centers and parkings, free of charge. 
And people take to this with the mirage of "the future" ... advanced technology ... what future? what advanced? the electric motor is over a century old, battery technology struggles, there is nothing new or innovative in electric cars, it is just a polished trud, that uses energy created a long way away with coal, and pushed over thousands of Km on ordinary aluminium cables whilst coal and aluminium smelters are threatened with shut down. 
Kafka novel, The Trial comes to mind. 
The mindless pink cheerleaders dance and clap in the background.

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## Bros

This bloke has a bit to say about EV's. It takes 1.5 hours to view them all, some will like what he says some not.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gqbTHk4egw  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBcyAUtDTD8  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt-KBLaLvcQ

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## Uncle Bob

> This bloke has a bit to say about EV's. It takes 1.5 hours to view them all, some will like what he says some not.

  I can thoroughly recommend watching Sandy Munroe over that guy. Sandy is a lot more likeable and has more creds (Ford/GM Engineer over Journo). 
I know most won't even bother watching so in a nutshell he's predicting EV will outsell ICE by 2028.

----------


## Marc

2028? Great! will they all fly by then?
I can't see that happening ... 
Can't find replacement batteries for my crystal ball  :Smilie:

----------


## Bros

> I know most won't even bother watching so in a nutshell he's predicting EV will outsell ICE by 2028. 
> ]

  Whats the HV he talks about?

----------


## John2b

> So ... we have a concerted effort by the string pulling elite, in creating a boogie man, the "bad" CO2... 
> ...The few sources of cheap energy demonised and new moronic and ultra expensive sources subsidised at taxpayers expenses... 
> ...As a consequence of the above, electricity cost climbs to unprecedented levels... 
> ...The mindless pink cheerleaders dance and clap in the background.

  So the chardonnay drinking, latte sipping, inner city conservationist, BEV driving, wealthy, communist extreme leftie elite nutbags are forcing _lower_ electricity prices on an unsuspecting population, and you are objecting? 
The Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC) expects decreased wholesale electricity costs as the closure of coal fired power stations is offset by more renewable energy across Australia. It's already happened in South Australia (under conservative LNC rule BTW) with ~70% renewable electricity generation and the lowest wholesale electricity prices in Australia.  *National energy market report details expected power bill price drops across Australia*https://www.aemc.gov.au/news-centre/...-trending-down

----------


## phild01

> I know most won't even bother watching so in a nutshell he's predicting EV will outsell ICE by 2028.

  My car could do with an update and I hesitate to buy ICE but know it works for me. If EV did the same I would not hesitate to go that way. I have no doubt the driving experience of an ev being so much better...just the issues need to go away.

----------


## Marc

Yes John, I can see it clearly now, prices dropping to 1990 level any day. 30 of february 2099 perhaps?
Disclaimer:
The leveling out of prices past 2022 is imaginary and the product of Jacobs crystal ball. 
Factor in electric cars and see what happens. Increase demand, prices go North. Make supply unreliable, prices go even further North.
Prices fall? Pull the other one.
What happened after the year 2000? Hint, it wasn't the Y2K, it was the idiotic unproven hypothesis of CO2 is baaad for you./ 
There is nothing wrong with electric whatever, be it washing machines, chainsaws or cars ... (even gasp electric nail guns !). What is wrong is the false sales pitch of "zero emission", "clean" and the rest of the marketing falsehood. They are not new technology, not clean, not zero emissions of any kind. They are a fraud. Will they sell? Of course. I could sell sand in the desert given the right exposure.    https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/File...rojections.pdf

----------


## Bart1080

> My car could do with an update and I hesitate to buy ICE but know it works for me. If EV did the same I would not hesitate to go that way. I have no doubt the driving experience of an ev being so much better...just the issues need to go away.

  
...and a better entry price point for the secondhand market as typically I spend <10k on low KM, well looked after/maintained vehicles and have them for years, servicing them myself with very few issues.  I too would do the same.   
The grey imports that John's done in the past look a little more feasible particularly when there may be a possibility of leveraging our 12.7kW solar but not sure of the metrics if this is possible and how long a charge would take.

----------


## John2b

The time to charge depends on how flat the battery is and how fast you are charging it. 
A BEV comes with an EVSE (electric vehicle service equipment) cable, which connects to a built in charger in the car. The EVSE is programmed to tell the car how much charge to take. I have two EVSEs, one that is 15A only and must be plugged into a 15A outlet, the other I can set to 6, 10 or 15A (at 240Vac). My onboard charger is 3.6kW max, some cars have 7kW. All BEVs have a different connection for fast charging which connects direct to the battery and can be 25-300kW at whatever the battery voltage is, usually 400 - 900 volts. 
If you charge overnight at home for 12 hours at 15A, that's 43kW, which is enough to drive ~250-300km. 
I don't charge overnight because I am not grid connected. I charge when the sun is shining at 15A if I need to or 6A if I don't. Last time I looked at the system data we average 8kWh per day for charging the car. Our system has ~10kW of panels and on cloudy days generates ~3kW (about 20 kilowatt-hours for the day), enough to charge the car at 10A rate (2.4kW) for a total of 15kWh or ~100km.  
There are a small number of dark days (black cloud days) where there is not sufficient PV to charge the car, however there is a charger in the local village and my partner can charge while at work on rostered days. 
When I drive to Adelaide, on arrival to the CBD I go to a fast charger (50kW?) which charges the car to 80% in 15-20 minutes while I have a coffee, then I can run errands for the rest of the day and charge overnight where I stay before the drive back the next day. It's too far to go there and back in one day anyway as the channel crossing itself is a lengthy process.

----------


## Bedford

> Some of you think Im being most unfair to EVs when I say theyre economically irrational to buy.
>  In other words, my claim is: They might suit you, make you feel good - whatever - but they do not save you money.  
> Also, they're hardly maintenance-free.

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## Marc

Unbelievable ... and he did not even address battery replacement. 
Fricken EV maintenance _free_​ my foot.

----------


## phild01

Could not listen to a few minutes of that, never heard him speak so poorly. Shame as I wanted to listen to his points of view but the start was idiotic.

----------


## Bros

> Could not listen to a few minutes of that, never heard him speak so poorly. Shame as I wanted to listen to his points of view but the start was idiotic.

   I rather like him as being in a male dominate heavy industry this is the way men talked in my time at work.

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## Marc

> Could not listen to a few minutes of that, never heard him speak so poorly. Shame as I wanted to listen to his points of view but the start was idiotic.

   I don't like his shenanigans either, particularly his attempts at putting "Stralia" down. However he has some very good points if you can get over the first section of banter. His point is that even with free electricity you can not save money due to the cost of maintenance and repairs. 
Before John chimes in saying that in fact his car floats on the smell of an oily rag and never breaks down, as much as it may be true for John, it is clearly not the experience of thousands upon thousands of EV owners overseas who face criminal prices for repairs and end up scraping their expensive wrecks. 
Plenty of specialised scrapyards for EV in Europe and US. And plenty of sob stories of unaffordable repairs.  
Te one point that video did not address is the cost to the owner of a battery replacement, and the cost to the environment of a lithium battery tossed at the tip.

----------


## Marc

Some sobering numbers on EV sales and Tesla rhetoric.  https://youtu.be/rmJAeKLVVTY

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## phild01

> I rather like him as being in a male dominate heavy industry this is the way men talked in my time at work.

  I get that but if he has a point to make he could at least appeal to a broader audience.

----------


## Marc

And here is the best and the worse about owning an EV according to Mr Cadogan.   https://youtu.be/1gqbTHk4egw

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## Uncle Bob

Marc, I'll bet you $100 that within five years that Tesla will not only be the biggest automobile manufacturer on the planet, but will also be the most valuable company on the plane!. I think it's possible if you take up the bet, I might even be collecting in two years  :Smilie: 
That annoying guy who overdones it will be eating a great plate of crow.

----------


## Marc

> Could not listen to a few minutes of that, never heard him speak so poorly. Shame as I wanted to listen to his points of view but the start was idiotic.

  I don't like the way he seems to put "Stralia" down, but if you can ignore his shenanigans, he knows his stuff re cars. 
His point is that you can not save money with EV not even with free electricity, since there are a lot of things that can go wrong and the cost of repairs once out of warranty is outrageous. 
I must add that in no way I want to disparage John experience with his EV. Clearly it works for him and good on him. But when we talk EV we are thinking as a potential choice for oneself. And it is there that we part company. The reasons have been exposed widely. This is a business, a new industry that needs market share and will carve it out using all possible recourses.
EV are here to stay until something else comes along. They should sell them for what they are, not for what they are not. Sell them for how much fun they can be, not a pollution solution because they are actually a new source of pollution not the answer to it.    

> Marc, I'll bet you $100 that within five years that Tesla will not only be the biggest automobile manufacturer on the planet, but will also be the most valuable company on the plane!. I think it's possible if you take up the bet, I might even be collecting in two years 
> That annoying guy who overdones it will be eating a great plate of crow.

  5 years? Mm ... are you sure? 
Good for you for backing up your beliefs. I don't take bets for next week, let alone 5 years time, however, when it comes to cars, I believe the guy knows his stuff. Style? Clearly he as none, but no matter, many seem to like him. 
Will see if "Electric Jesus" is able to go places. Somehow the comments about competition from actual car manufacturers seems rather credible. 
We wait with baited breath.  :Smilie:

----------


## Moondog55

Everything has a finite life, unless it's a known classic a car or truck is usually worth pretty much nothing after 20 years, why don't we simply accept that as the cost of having our own personal transport and in this regard I don't think EVs will be much different.

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## Whitey66

> Marc, I'll bet you $100 that within five years that Tesla will not only be the biggest automobile manufacturer on the planet, but will also be the most valuable company on the plane!. I think it's possible if you take up the bet, I might even be collecting in two years 
> That annoying guy who overdones it will be eating a great plate of crow.

  As much as I hate to say it, I think the largest car makers on the planet will be in China.

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## Marc

Couldn't have said it better myself ...  :Smilie:   https://youtu.be/xEKJljhv1Do

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## Uncle Bob

> As much as I hate to say it, I think the largest car makers on the planet will be in China.

  They probably all ready are, since most componentary is made in China. Things really ain't rosy for us with our current supply chain if we keep poking the bear.

----------


## phild01

> They probably all ready are, since most componentary is made in China. Things really ain't rosy for us with our current supply chain if we keep poking the bear.

  You left out Maris Payne, however China does want to dictate their terms to the rest of the world with money and bribes. Capturing nations with debt as well as the US not having much happening to combat China's growing military might. I don't think Elon will be able to be the biggest car maker against that.

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## Bros

> They probably all ready are, since most componentary is made in China. Things really ain't rosy for us with our current supply chain if we keep poking the bear (get the drift Dutton and Morrison you morons).

  Actually that is not quite right at this time as I am in the market for a new car and there are shortages of all models except MG which is made in China.

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## Uncle Bob

Hey Phil, call me a dumbarse or whatever, but I'm not sure who Maris Payne is, actually I'd have to web search to find out whoever that is  :Redface: ) But I do know, at least in my own head, we need to play the long game with China, because that's what they have been doing with us for the last decade or more, just like the more things that don't suit our own narrative, we tend to bury our head in the sand and hope things just return to how they were. 
Honestly, I think the only way forward is to de-globalize and make everything we need on our doorstep. The current silicon chip supply issue is re-reinforcing this as a major issue, and totally showing the worlds dependence of China and shipping as a real threat to our current way of life.  
Like i suggested, play the long game, be diplomable (sp?), whist setting up own self-sufficiency. Be dependent. Going forward the way things are currently are is brainless and going to kill us all.

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## phild01

Agree, I am hoping India could further develop as a manufacturing powerhouse to counter China's dominance. As for silicon chip supply, China intends on dominating that and absorb Taiwan in the process.

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## Uncle Bob

> Actually that is not quite right at this time as I am in the market for a new car and there are shortages of all models except MG which is made in China.

  ,.
No Bros, that totally reinforces my argument, they have what we (and they) need to make things, but strangely (and blamed on the pandemic) the supply chains are stretched and we can't get them at the moment (or ever again?) .

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## Uncle Bob

> Agree, I am hoping India could further develop as a manufacturing powerhouse to counter China's dominance. As for silicon chip supply, China intends on dominating that and absorb Taiwan in the process.

  
I think this is likely, I'd prefer this because they are more honorable. But still every continent needs to make all there own stuff.

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## Bros

On principle I won't be buying a Chinese car.

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## Uncle Bob

> On principle I won't be buying a Chinese car.

   :2thumbsup:   
For a small ICE (infernal combustion engine) personally I'd be lookin the regulars (anything from Japan)

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## Forrestmount

> ,.
> No Bros, that totally reinforces my argument, they have what we (and they) need to make things, but strangely (and blamed on the pandemic) the supply chains are stretched and we can't get them at the moment (or ever again?) .

  Sorry- This is a little off topic  
I work full time as a supplier of goods to the civil industry and I also have a weekend only electronics manufacturing business. Based on the what I have seen with supply chains in both businesses at present there is no one thing driving the challenges. 
Drought in Taiwan is over, they had flooding 6 months ago. We saw no improvement. 
Covid in China was reported to under control 18 months ago. 
Suez Chanel was blocked and cleared , I am sure this had a ripple effect somehow. 
Fuel price was almost cheaper most could recall but has rebounded with no positive or negative effect on lead times noticed.   
My 2 cents the biggest cause is the toilet paper effect. 
Everyone is ordering more goods than they would normally and from multiple venders because of concerns on current lead times. Once the the supply chain is at parity with demand the manufacturers are going to see a big dip in orders.  
I do think the supply chain will sort itself out and we will see more sources of components or products. Companies like Apple have seem to have done a great job of “not being affected” I don’t know if if was clever marketing. I was suspicious that shutting the stores early in the pandemic  for their staffs safety may have been more to do with low stock levels, or perhaps they have supply chains in multiple regions already.   
ro

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## Bros

> For a small ICE (infernal combustion engine) personally I'd be lookin the regulars (anything from Japan)

  I have had Toyota, Mazda and Honda with the Honda being the first small SUV type of vehicle. They are all in short supply but the upside is the trade is worth more.

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## John2b

Here, in alphabetical order, is a rundown of where all the world’s automakers stand on going electric:  https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/automaker-ev-plans/

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## Bros

Interesting report from Noel Whittaker who gives his report on his real world use of an electric cars and the advantages and disadvantages from a user's point of view. I posted a report on a similar use a while ago but this is more detailed.  

> *Electric Vehicles*  
> I’m going to devote a fair bit of space in this newsletter to electric vehicles. The world is moving very quickly to replace internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles with environmentally friendly electric vehicles (EVs). But as always, the devil is in the detail. 
> A major problem is generating the electricity to power EVs on our roads in the next few years. EVs are only zero emission if they are made and powered with electricity from renewables, but that’s a long way off. In the meantime, coal-fired stations will continue to do the heavy lifting. At least EVs are more efficient than ICE vehicles.          An issue that appears to have been overlooked is how EV charging points will be supplied to people living in apartment complexes. Chargers would have to be in the building’s car park; will special meters need to be installed to record the extra power use? And when EVs are the norm, will the entire building’s electricity supply have to be upgraded to cope with the EV charging needs of its residents? If so, who will pay the cost? Imagine the headaches for residents of an older building with hundreds of apartments! 
> There is a huge potential effect on apartment valuations. Almost certainly, apartment buyers will be looking for EV facilities already in the building – if the building has no such facilities now, will sellers find themselves forced to discount the price in expectation of future costs to bring the building up to speed? Worse still, what if the building is not able to be converted to cater for electric vehicles?  *My own EV experience*  
> As electric cars are the way the future I thought it may be useful to you all if I related my own journey with them. Just keep in mind I am not a car expert, but I have no axe to grind as nobody is paying me, so what follows is simply what I have experienced. 
> We have been Lexus owners for many years and they have served us well. But in 2019 I was having a chat to a friend who was raving about his Tesla. We ended up having a drive in it and I was hooked on its comfort, speed, and smoothness. 
> It is well accepted that human beings make decisions on emotion and try to justify with logic later. My logic was that I was approaching 80 years of age, and a self-driving car must be a much better proposition than doing it all myself as the years passed. So, I traded in my beloved Lexus SUV for a Tesla model X. That’s their big SUV and we chose that because we have 11 grandchildren in Brisbane and thought it would be useful to take them around.          The much hyped self driving did not live up to expectations and I doubt that truly self-driving cars will be available in my lifetime. For starters, the Tesla needs roads with white lines to guide it, which rules out most suburban streets and it really has trouble with traffic lights and roundabouts. I noticed there has also been a subtle change in terminology – what was once auto drive has now become auto steer. 
> The good news is that it’s a delight to drive, is extremely comfortable, and is brilliant on freeways, and tunnels. It’s also great in the rain. Last week I had a speech at the Gold Coast and was driving home at 4 PM in rain so heavy it was almost impossible to see. I just put the car on auto steer and it did all the work. It turned out there was a major incident up further and the car quickly diverted me to another freeway so I still made it home on time. It’s also very cheap to refuel but as my father always taught me – the cheapest part of the car is the petrol. 
> Two and a half years later I am still enjoying the car but next year we will be changing our vehicles. The Tesla X is way too big for us, and it’s almost impossible to drive it into a shopping centre car park because the way they design the ramps, scratching the wheel rims is almost a certainty. And we never seem to have more than four grandchildren at once so the extra space is not needed. 
> ...

----------


## Uncle Bob

A pretty good summary Bro. But I believe he's wrong wrong about AutoPilot. According to Elon, it will be smart enough to drive on any road, marked or not.

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## Bros

He mentions auto steer and auto pilot. I don't know what these terms mean exactly_. _ Interesting about the reference to unit blocks and charging facilities, I believe people in apartments will be first to take up the EV challenge as by its nature are built in large cities in easy commuting distance to work.

----------


## John2b

> Interesting about the reference to unit blocks and charging facilities...

  Given that according to guvmint statistics the average vehicle in Australia travels around 40km a day, I have difficulty reconciling Noel Whitaker's apprehensions about charging BEVs at home. As far as I am aware, most if not all apartment blocks already have electricity installed. An ordinary 10A power point can provide ~300km of range between 6pm and 8am. I typically charge at 1.4kW or ~6A which is fast enough most of the time, even though being off-grid I don't charge overnight. 
If everyone needs to charge >ten times faster than me at 15kW, and apparently Noel does because he installed an expensive charger so that he can, they will most likely be doing it when the car is home overnight when other major consumption like air conditioning is almost zero. If anything, that phenomena significantly improves the utilisation factor of the electrical infrastructure of the whole grid, let alone any particular apartment building, something most of my compatriot engineers would consider a "win/win".

----------


## phild01

> cheap  An ordinary 10A power point can provide ~300km of range between 6pm and 8am.

  Guess we need to keep cheap coal fired off-peak power available then  :Biggrin:

----------


## Uncle Bob

> He mentions auto steer and auto pilot. I don't know what these terms mean exactly_. _

  Good video here showing how complex Self driving cars are. Man these guys are real Enginerds!

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## Bros

> Man these guys are real Enginerds!

  They sure are Engineers or nerds that is the question.

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## John2b

> Guess we need to keep cheap coal fired off-peak power available then

  First someone has to create "cheap coal fired off-peak power" because up until now there has only been expensive "coal fired off-peak power" sold cheap to avoid even more expense overall.

----------


## phild01

> First someone has to create "cheap coal fired off-peak power" because up until now there has only been expensive "coal fired off-peak power" sold cheap to avoid even more expense overall.

    So where will all that night time power come from to charge everyone's ev. Hopefully not from storage batteries :Sad3:  :Yucky:

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## UseByDate

> So where will all that night time power come from to charge everyone's ev. Hopefully not from storage batteries

  Snowy hydro? https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/

----------


## Moondog55

Well the wind does blow at night and the tides turn twice a day. Get rid of the Port of Melbourne and shift it to a natural deep water harbour in Westernport Bay and we could generate Terawatts using a tidal turbine in the heads.

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## Uncle Bob

> Well the wind does blow at night and the tides turn twice a day. Get rid of the Port of Melbourne and shift it to a natural deep water harbour in Westernport Bay and we could generate Terawatts using a tidal turbine in the heads.

  Good idea Ted

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## r3nov8or

> Well the wind does blow at night and the tides turn twice a day. Get rid of the Port of Melbourne and shift it to a natural deep water harbour in Westernport Bay and we could generate Terawatts using a tidal turbine in the heads.

  With a freshly minced fish cake extractor?

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## Moondog55

I am assuming that the tidal generators use the same prefiltering systems that current hydro generators use and that clearances would be large enough to allow small fry and plankton to pass though easily. After all we are talking about a low speed turbines several metres in diametre

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## Bros

Id love to be able to take one of these down to my local Woolworths.  https://9gag.com/gag/a1Wzxq2

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## phild01

Any other links...adblocker!

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## Bros

Cant you just bypass your adblocker?

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## phild01

Not wanting to disable the adblocker. If you use an adblocker it typically means you don't want the advertiser's stuff anyway so why should it bother them!

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## r3nov8or

> Any other links...adblocker!

  This, rolling up the road...

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## Bros

> Not wanting to disable the adblocker. If you use an adblocker it typically means you don't want the advertiser's stuff anyway so why should it bother them!

   I used to use ad blocker but found it a nuisance so I have disabled it and I have no issues. Try another browser.

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## Uncle Bob

> I used to use ad blocker but found it a nuisance so I have disabled it and I have no issues. Try another browser.

  I couldn't live without an adblocker. OK I could, wouldn't want too  :Biggrin:

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## ForeverYoung

Finnish Man Blows Up Tesla Car Instead of Replacing Battery (gizmodo.com)   

> Katainen is a 2013 Tesla Model S owner who was told he would have to pay more than $22,600 to replace the battery on his car. For him, it apparently wasn’t worth it, so he decided to team up with a YouTuber to blow up his Model S with 66 pounds (30 kilograms) of dynamite instead.

   :Fireworks:

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## r3nov8or

So much for the "Don't worry, you can get batteries replaced for $2,000" crew...

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## Bros

Not a lot different to this bloke. Probably made more money on the destruction.  https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...a38907fdfc30db

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## John2b

If someone believes it is expensive to replace a BEV battery then it is simple enough for them to make that proposition true; confirmation bias is a powerful (even explosive) tool! On the other hand, if one considers cost of ownership, then the cost of replacing a battery takes an entirely different perspective. Over the past three years I've spent about $35 on charging whilst forgoing ~$8,000 in petrol costs. 
Even if I have to replace the battery soon (which is more than extremely unlikely) and thus canceled the fuel savings, I would still have had the pleasure of driving a vehicle vastly superior in quietness, smoothness, comfort, acceleration, etc. I don't expect to need to replace the battery in our BEV for several years yet, but frankly _even if I had to_ I could do it for a cost that does not significantly change the economics of owning the car. As they say YMMV.

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## Bros

This one looks like it is built of plasticine.  https://www.carscoops.com/2020/01/te...slams-into-it/

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## John2b

> This one looks like it is built of plasticine.

  IIRC the old indestructible Fords, Chryslers, etc, had an accident death rate about seven times higher than the newer car designs of the '70s and '80s when they got squashed in accidents. Apparently staying alive and the higher crash repair costs didn't result in a lot of people complaining aboutnew car design's saving of lives.

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## Uncle Bob

> So much for the "Don't worry, you can get batteries replaced for $2,000" crew...

  That will become a reality, and it can be done already. But yeah, battery replacement costs are an issue.

----------


## John2b

The fully electric Mercedes AA Class solves the battery recharging problem once and for all:  https://youtu.be/fLC3lryWrjQ

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## Bros

Duracell?

----------


## UseByDate

Elegant design but won't pull a trailer. :Smilie:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_c3gaO32g

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## John2b

In today's Sydney Morning Herald: Twiggy buys company to make battery electric trucks.  Andrew Forrests Fortescue will pay $309 million for the Williams Formula One teams UK-based engineering offshoot to access battery technology it needs to wean its vast train and truck fleets off diesel. The iron ore miner announced the purchase yesterday of Williams Advanced Engineering for £164 million ($309 million). Formula One boss Frank Williams founded WAE in 2010 and its almost 400 employees are based at the same Oxfordshire campus as the racing team. WAE will be integrated into Fortescues clean energy subsidiary Fortescue Future Industries but retain its name.

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## John2b

According to the SMH today Tesla registrations _in Australia_ last year show that Tesla to overtook the annual sales tally for _Volvo, Skoda, Lexus and Jeep_, pushing those brands down the official rankings. 
It's no wonder that Volvo officially aims to have 50% of global sales BEV by 2025 and 100% by 2030, Skoda plans to launch "at least" three new electric vehicles in Europe by 2030, Toyota has vowed to sell 3.5 million BEVs globally by 2030 and to transform Lexus into an EV-only brand by 2035, and Jeep plans a fully electric entry in every SUV category by the middle of the decade.

----------


## Marc

Why do people buy electric cars? "Because they are idiots" would be my comment, but no, let's be honest, they deep down believe that they have a moral obligation towards "the environment". So they ignore and look the other way of the hundreds of components that pollute the many other countries that manufacture them, ignore the price tag that makes it an impossible proposition, ignore it's enormous limitations and trade ins, and then ... they run out of juice. Not to worry, there is always the generator.   
Almost 20 years, almost 14,000 post, but I love this one the best. 
I wonder why was I not locked out of this thread like I was from the Corona virus thread? I can post terribly misleading stuff with atrocious consequences! ... like a bit of content, some actual scientific facts, something generating traffic. 
Orwellian stuff.

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## John2b

Welcome back Marc. Our Leaf has done 70,000km now. We've spent around $40 on 'fuel'. A major service consists of checking the t*y*res and filling up the washer water. Haven't been caught out by running out of 'fuel' yet, but it happens to anyone.

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## r3nov8or

Not sure there'd be a handy EV charge point in that precise location, though  :Biggrin:  . May need that generator and block traffic for a while longer

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## John2b

I'd hazard a guess that one of those buildings on either side has a power point.

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## r3nov8or

> I'd hazard a guess that one of those buildings on either side has a power point.

  Speedy

----------


## John2b



----------


## Whitey66

> A major service consists of checking the t*y*res and filling up the washer water.

  What about coolant, brake fluid and transaxle oil changes. No need to check the cooling system, brakes and suspension?? The cooling system needs nowhere near the attention as an ICE vehicle, but it still should be checked and the coolant changed, unless they have "lifetime" coolant like other manufacturers. What about the 12v battery? How long does that last before it needs replacing?
I'd reckon that the depreciation on your second hand electric car would be greater than any fuel and service savings if you bought a similar second hand ICE vehicle instead.

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## Bros



----------


## John2b

> What about coolant, brake fluid and transaxle oil changes...

   Don't forget the biggest difference - there is no multi-kilowatt powered vibration generator in a BEV, i.e. nothing to shake everything to pieces like an ICE vehicle. Lifetime fills, like my previous BMW. I check the brakes every time I use them, but rotors and pads outlast the car - regenerative braking 90% of the time. Don't use the 12 volt battery for starting - in an ICE that is what hacks the battery plus vibration - doh! The 12 volt battery is charged by a DC-DC multi-stage charger from the traction battery, even when the car is not running! Compared to an ICE car the BEV's 12 volt battery is nurtured in cottonwool. 
Even if a similarly specified ICE car was cheaper in depreciation the real world ownership experience of a BEV is so superior that a a comparison of value is meaningless. The BEV has superior traction and handling due to low centre of gravity, enormous acceleration that craps over ICE, quiet smooth running so you can have a conversation without raising your voice at 100kph. It's just a joke that people try to defend ICE or attack BEVs. 
I haven't paid for fuel for three years and according to CarSales prices for a similarly spec'd car as ours I should be able to sell the car for >$5000 more than it cost me. That's the kind of depreciation I like! YMMV.

----------


## John2b

Dear oh dear, Bros. I though by now everyone knows the fallacy of your post, or at least everyone who worked in the energy industry like yourself. Even if the electricity for an electric car is generated by a coal fired power station the emissions of CO2 per kilometre of a BEV is significantly less than a similar sized ICE powered vehicle. That's because ICE vehicles only convert about 15% of the energy in the fuel consumed to send power out of the tail-shaft, compared to 90% from BEV vehicles. Every BEV removes a 'dirtier' ICE from the road, so net emissions go down. If you live in a progressive state the benefit is even greater because coal isn't going to be used to generate electricity anyway.

----------


## phild01

I would like an EV but let's face it, what Whitey points out, depreciation would be massive, long term probably recycle value only once the big battery needs replacing.

----------


## Forrestmount

I cannot get past the suggestion that when the battery dies and you need a “quick charge” you would ask a stranger in the nearest building to gift you a few hours of their time, an extension lead and the power. All whilst blocking a road. 
Really the better option would be to tow a trailer with a genset ready to go.  
Problem solved   
Sro

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## r3nov8or

> ...CarSales prices for a similarly spec'd car as ours I should be able to sell the car for >$5000 more than it cost me. That's the kind of depreciation I like! YMMV.

  News flash! This happened to every decent used car during COVID!

----------


## John2b

> Really the better option would be to tow a trailer with a genset ready to go.

  Or buy a car with the range booster option AKA generator in the boot like some BMWs, or a hybrid electric vehicle which generates electricity to charge the batteries as you go.

----------


## Bros

> Dear oh dear, Bros. I though by now everyone knows the fallacy of your post, or at least everyone who worked in the energy industry like yourself. Even if the electricity for an electric car is generated by a coal fired power station the emissions of CO2 per kilometre of a BEV is significantly less than a similar sized ICE powered vehicle. That's because ICE vehicles only convert about 15% of the energy in the fuel consumed to send power out of the tail-shaft, compared to 90% from BEV vehicles. Every BEV removes a 'dirtier' ICE from the road, so net emissions go down. If you live in a progressive state the benefit is even greater because coal isn't going to be used to generate electricity anyway.

  In all my time fishing I never knew coal was good bait, so I have learnt something.

----------


## John2b

> I would like an EV but let's face it, what Whitey points out, depreciation would be massive, long term probably recycle value only once the big battery needs replacing.

  "So sure, you could buy a bigger conventional vehicle for the same amount of money that you’d spend on pretty much any given electric car, but in most cases you’ll lose the same amount of money when it comes time to sell up. Don’t let depreciation dissuade you if you’ve decided to go electric and can afford to do so. If you're just after the most metal for your money, EVs are not for you. "However, looking at retained values of EVs in Europe will make you weep. The Model S retains nearly 61 percent of original value over there, while the Hyundai Ioniq Electric does even better with 61.7 percent. Nissan Leaf? 64.5 percent. No wonder it’s one of Europe’s most favoured electric cars. "The Model X also scores 64 percent, while the I-Pace is the best-performing pure electric of them all, with a huge 74.6 percent retained value after three years. In Australia, the highest-scoring car according to industry data is the Mercedes-Benz C200 with 73 percent."

----------


## John2b

> In all my time fishing I never knew coal was good bait, so I have learnt something.

   You've always known good bait and I don't think you've learned anything.

----------


## Whitey66

> according to CarSales prices for a similarly spec'd car as ours I should be able to sell the car for >$5000 more than it cost me. That's the kind of depreciation I like! YMMV.

  Anyone who uses Carsales for the true value  of car prices has no idea at all, Redbook is more accurate for true prices.  I bought a new Isuzu D-Max X-Terrain last year for $58,500, they have been listed on Carsales for over $74,000 but that doesn't mean my ute is worth that much. The "Covid vehicle tax" that we're seeing at the moment can't be counted on either, because it won't be around for much longer. Just because someone is trying to sell it for that price doesn't mean they'll get it. Most of the sales on there are from dealers who have to add a premium onto the price to cover the used car warranty. Imagine if the dealer sold one and the battery crapped its dacks within a 3 month period of the sale. So what year model is yours if you think it's worth over $27,000 now?

----------


## Whitey66

> Nissan Leaf? 64.5 percent. No wonder it’s one of Europe’s most favoured electric cars.

  Too bad, we don't live in Europe. I think you'll find most EV's including the Leaf in Australia  (where we live) will be lucky to retain 50% of their value after 3 years.

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## Moondog55

I'll need a new vehicle soon but not until I run my current old Kia into the ground.
I'd like something like the current Hyundai iLoad or the high roof LWB fors transit; but with 4WD and hybrid for the range.
So far I don't see anything with both enough range and space to sleep in/camp in but hoping something gets into the market before I become too decrepit to bushwalk and ski

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## Bros

> I'll need a new vehicle soon

    Me to but there is a shortage of new vehicles so I have to wait.

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## John2b

> Anyone who uses Carsales for the true value  of car prices has no idea at all

  Thank you for the heads-up on my personal development, much appreciated.   

> Redbook is more accurate for true prices.

  Redbook does not have a value for my car. BTW I did not use Carsales to see the true value of my Nissan Leaf, I used it to see what similar year ones are on the market for.   

> Imagine if the dealer sold one and the battery crapped its dacks within a 3 month period of the sale.

  It is extremely rare for a battery to fail suddenly, surprisingly so. Before I bought the car the battery diagnostics were fully disclosed; it's no secret because the data is available on the OBDII data port.   

> So what year model is yours if you think it's worth over $27,000 now?

  I have never even thought about what the car is worth because I have no intention of selling it. I'm quite happy with practically no cost motoring for now. The year model is 2016.

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## ForeverYoung

> The Tesla's driver ... was watching a movie on his mobile phone while the car drove itself, according to officials.

  Tesla on autopilot crashes into US patrol car (9news.com.au)

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## r3nov8or

> Tesla on autopilot crashes into US patrol car (9news.com.au)

  Returning from Melbourne to Geelong one day, a Tesla was in the right lane doing, I suspect, just under 100kmh. I was gaining, but from what I saw of other cars he had no intention of moving over for faster traffic. I passed him on the left, and found the driver eating out of a bowl with chopsticks, both hands occupied on his meal. Cruise and Lane Keep doing all the work while he chowed down. Just crazy

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## ForeverYoung

> ... found the driver eating out of a bowl with chopsticks ...

  Impressive.
Some people never master chopsticks.

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## r3nov8or

> Impressive.
> Some people never master chopsticks.

  I reckon he was a native of the chopstick  :Smilie:

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## John2b

> Impressive.
> Some people never master chopsticks.

   :Roflmao:

----------


## PiL

I'm considering buying the freshly updated cx5 2.5t. 
Old school tried and tested 4 cylinder turbo and 6 speed auto.
One final blat before switching to electric/hybrid. 
Anyone else in a similar situation?

----------


## Bros

> I'm considering buying the freshly updated cx5 2.5t. 
> Old school tried and tested 4 cylinder turbo and 6 speed auto.

   New or in the used car speak "pre owned"

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## John2b

> I think you'll find most EV's including the Leaf in Australia  (where we live) will be lucky to retain 50% of their value after 3 years.

    

> I would like an EV but let's face it, what Whitey points out, depreciation would be massive, long term probably recycle value only once the big battery needs replacing.

  
  Secondhand electric cars are selling above their new list price because of a shortage of vehicles, and more recently because of fuel prices. 
Used EVs selling above retail http://canberraweekly.com.au/used-ev...ments-failure/ 
Used Electric Car Prices Soared In 2021 https://insideevs.com/news/560332/us...prices-soared/

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## PiL

> New or in the used car speak "pre owned"

  New. The facelift model was only released this month.
The drivetrain is carry over old tech, but it's reliable and is the only current example of an old fashioned drivetrain on the market today. Would be a nice final hurrah before succumbing to the inevitable.

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## r3nov8or

> New. The facelift model was only released this month...

  But it's a Mazda  :Biggrin:    

> ...
> Would be a nice final hurrah before succumbing to the inevitable.

  What, hydrogen?  :Biggrin:

----------


## PiL

> But it's a Mazda    
> What, hydrogen?

  There isnt any other new car on the market that combines a traditional turbo engine and auto gearbox. 
Mazda has spread into the markets previously held by honda and subaru. Both those brands have gone to crap. Shame really.  
Hybrid, hydrogen, phev, ev, whatever. The car after this most likely wont be purely petrol, and that makes me sad.

----------


## Bros

> New. The facelift model was only released this month.
> The drivetrain is carry over old tech, but it's reliable and is the only current example of an old fashioned drivetrain on the market today. Would be a nice final hurrah before succumbing to the inevitable.

   I'm with you as for getting a new car but the delivery times are extraordinary. I have had two Mazda's and I liked them but when they introduced the I stop technology with no way to permanently delete it I went away from Mazda, I currently have Honda. I want to have a car that starts when I want and stops when I want not some overriding technology.
I keep cars for 5 to 6 yrs and after replacing this one with a petrol car I will see what happens at the 5 year mark.

----------


## phild01

> I want to have a car that starts when I want and stops when I want not some overriding technology.

  I drove a Hyundai I30 as a loan car and the technology was incredible, even included a DAB radio but I would never want the car. The lane correct was unnecessarily correcting my steering. I would rather have old technology then having stuff like that.

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## PiL

There is a simple override to disable the stop start. 
Mazdas delivery time for new build is only 3 or 4 months. 
The beefy 2.5 turbo is what's drawing me.
I regret not buying the old subaru forrester gt before it turned into a tuurd mover. Talk about wolf in sheep's clothing. The new turbo awd cx5 is a better car than the subaru was and i dont want to regret that again. 
Also dont understand why other brands have embraced cvts and dual clutch just to save a bee's dick worth of fuel efficiency.  
I think im talking myself more and more into it  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
Electric is gonna have to wait.  :Rolleyes:

----------


## Bros

> There is a simple override to disable the stop start.

  Only on a per trip basis as I have checked this out.

----------


## Bros

> Also dont understand why other brands have embraced cvts and dual clutch just to save a bee's dick worth of fuel efficiency.

   I believe it is so they can get better performance out of small motors, most small cars have them now.

----------


## PiL

> Only on a per trip basis as I have checked this out.

  A simple bonnet activated switch disables istop. Literally a 1 minute job. 
It also means you dont have to replace with an expensive start stop battery.  https://youtu.be/goj-C_VNz0I

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## r3nov8or

> There isnt any other new car on the market that combines a traditional turbo engine and auto gearbox. 
> ..

  Skoda, 2L turbo and DSG auto. Twin turbo if you spend more.

----------


## Bros

> A simple bonnet activated switch disables istop. Literally a 1 minute job. 
> It also means you dont have to replace with an expensive start stop battery.  https://youtu.be/goj-C_VNz0I

   I haven't seen that mod before, I have seen the mod where the I stop defeat switch is wedged in. All so the manufacturer can get their fuel consumption figures down for the brochure.

----------


## ForeverYoung

anyone with an EV, or not, who knows a bit about home charging?
this website Home Charging  JET Charge claims   

> *Home EV chargers can be almost 10x more powerful than regular wall outlets.*

  is that right? or even remotely right?
I am building a new garage and have contacted them (no reply as yet) about their reciprocal charging stations ... Vehicle to grid  JET Charge
Dreadful _modern_ website, and I just noticed they changed their site map so now at least that last link isn't buried.

----------


## Whitey66

> anyone with an EV, or not, who knows a bit about home charging?
> this website Home Charging  JET Charge claims 
> is that right? or even remotely right?
> I am building a new garage and have contacted them (no reply as yet) about their reciprocal charging stations ... Vehicle to grid  JET Charge
> Dreadful _modern_ website, and I just noticed they changed their site map so now at least that last link isn't buried.

  A standard GPO is rated at around 2.4 kW (240v x 10A = 2,400 watts = 2.4 kW), they sell a charge cable rated at 22 kW so it looks like they are about 10 times more powerful than a regular wall outlet.
I'd expect that they get this 22 kW from 3 phase though, do you have 3 phase power to your house? If you don't and you want a really fast charger I'd say you'd need to get it connected.

----------


## Moondog55

That's 110 Amps isn't it?
Plugged into a 15A socket I can get 350 A from my welder on a 20% duty cycle so how do these chargers pull more than the cable from street to house support?

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## Bros

> Plugged into a 15A socket I can get 350 A from my welder on a 20% duty cycle so how do these chargers pull more than the cable from street to house support?

  That’s a very big welder.

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## johnc

> Skoda, 2L turbo and DSG auto. Twin turbo if you spend more.

  VW run the same engine combo in the VW (Passat, Golf, Vans etc) as well as Audi, they share across the full brand.

----------


## PiL

VAG are a criminal organisation and I would never support them. Even worse, they use a dsg. Yeah nah.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> A standard GPO is rated at around 2.4 kW (240v x 10A = 2,400 watts = 2.4 kW), they sell a charge cable rated at 22 kW so it looks like they are about 10 times more powerful than a regular wall outlet.
> I'd expect that they get this 22 kW from 3 phase though, do you have 3 phase power to your house? If you don't and you want a really fast charger I'd say you'd need to get it connected.

  I have asked them about wiring requirements.
I am not after fast charging per se (I suspect it isn't good/ideal for the EV battery) but am more interested in using the EV battery as a battery for the house so just trying to work out what wiring the new garage might need. I have some long runs too (60m underground from the consumer pole to the house, and 2 solar/inverter systems, 1 on the house the other on a shed) so figure that will be a consideration. Wish I could find a domestic sparky who was solar intelligent and get across all my installation.

----------


## Bros

> I have asked them about wiring requirements.
>  Wish I could find a domestic sparky who was solar intelligent and get across all my installation.

  What you are asking requires the use of a good fortune teller as the Solar, Battery, EV Cars are somewhat of a moving feast and what would sound reasonable now could be totally ridiculous in 5 yrs time.
I think you are going to have to do your homework and get on to an electrician and tell him what you want without relying on him giving you the best information which would be relevant in 5 yrs time.

----------


## Whitey66

> What you are asking requires the use of a good fortune teller as the Solar, Battery, EV Cars are somewhat of a moving feast and what would sound reasonable now could be totally ridiculous in 5 yrs time.
> I think you are going to have to do your homework and get on to an electrician and tell him what you want without relying on him giving you the best information which would be relevant in 5 yrs time.

   Yes, if not getting it for 5 years I would just get some conduit and draw strings to accommodate the future wiring ran in your new garage build as it is cheaper and easier to do it then. The conduit will be the only thing that won't change in 5 years time I reckon, and try to go bigger than you think you need just in case.

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## Whitey66

> That's 110 Amps isn't it?
> Plugged into a 15A socket I can get 350 A from my welder on a 20% duty cycle so how do these chargers pull more than the cable from street to house support?

   Like I said, probably using 3 phases. The charger would only require a 32A protection device on each of the phases to get the 22,000 kW needed. Most service mains can carry 100A per phase so this leaves a lot left per phase to run other things in the house.
I'm not sure what your 350A welder has to do with this?? It might be running at 350A but that would mean the voltage would only be around 10v or less.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> What you are asking requires the use of a good fortune teller as the Solar, Battery, EV Cars are somewhat of a moving feast and what would sound reasonable now could be totally ridiculous in 5 yrs time.
> I think you are going to have to do your homework and get on to an electrician and tell him what you want without relying on him giving you the best information which would be relevant in 5 yrs time.

  I asked them about a product they currently sell  

> JET Charge is bringing the worlds first bi-directional DC charger to Australian homes and businesses: the Wallbox Quasar.

  But they have no details at all on their website, it isn't even in the product list with a price.
Seems like a reasonable request to me.
I will probably end up just putting in 2 lots of conduit and leave one empty with a draw string, but I want to know where the wiring has to run to - my main board, my consumer pole, my inverter ...

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## r3nov8or

> VAG are a criminal organisation and I would never support them. Even worse, they use a dsg. Yeah nah.

  This made my day. Funny. Thanks

----------


## r3nov8or

> I'm considering buying the freshly updated cx5 2.5t. 
> Old school tried and tested 4 cylinder turbo and 6 speed auto.
> One final blat before switching to electric/hybrid. 
> Anyone else in a similar situation?

  here you go...  https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...-review-134820

----------


## METRIX

> I'm considering buying the freshly updated cx5 2.5t. 
> Old school tried and tested 4 cylinder turbo and 6 speed auto.
> One final blat before switching to electric/hybrid. 
> Anyone else in a similar situation?

  Yep, looking at the 2022 Ranger Raptor, after the crap 4cyl 2.0L diesel they put in the current generation and copped a lot of flak for I wasn't interested in this vehicle purely because of the crappy small engine. 
The new gen has a 300Kw 3.0L V6 twin turbo petrol mated to a revised 10 speed Auto, 0-100 is meant to be under 5 seconds, I would have been happy to have a V6 Diesel which they will also be offering in the non Raptor version, with 184Kw and 600 Nm should also go like a rocket. 
The latest gen was also engineered in Australia and has been designed so it can become a Hybrid / full EV with only minor changes to production, so should be interesting to see a full electric version of this in the coming years.  https://www.ford.com.au/showroom/fut...-ranger-raptor 
Got some crazy new colours in it as well, I like the Sedona or Aluminium    
The F150 full electric Lightning looks like a great vehicle with ability to power your house, or all your jobsite tools if required, release is very soon in the US.   
The latest gen Ranger has generated a LOT of interest around the world and has blindsided the competition, Toyota with their overpriced dinosaur Hilux is going to have to drop their ridiculous pricing strategy for an outdated very ordinary vehicle to compete with the new Ranger,  
I used to traditionally buy Hilux's and gave up on them as they were always behind the times in safety, design, useability and engine technology, I still have an entry level one as a work vehicle and a Higher spec Ranger as the vehicle I would prefer to drive. 
I wouldn't buy a new Hilux they are no more reliable than any other brand despite their advertising, they are gutless and servicing is crap from the dealers, current one still has a fanbelt horrible squealing noise every morning for about 20 minutes even though I have asked for it to be fixed for the last 5 services. 
I noticed Ford AU has just jumped on the American truck importing game, Ford US said NO to a RHD F150 direct from factory as there is no need due to F150 sales in the US outstripping every other vehicle, just the F150 variants sell close to 900,000 that's close to the total Australian new car sales for all vehicles. 
It will only be limited to two variants, but will be backed by full 5 year Ford warranty, it will be re engineered similar to the Ram / Silverado's to be a RHD so will add significant cost to the vehicle, 
Unfortunately they will probably be north of $100,000 same as the RAM and Silverado's, so will probably give them a miss, especially when you can get the better performing Ranger Raptor for less, but if you need 4.5 ton towing capacity you cant beat the larger trucks. 
Will come with the 298Kw 3.5l Twin turbo V6 petrol, which is now a bit underpowered compared to the 3.0L 300Kw version going into the lighter Ranger.  https://www.ford.com.au/showroom/fut...hp-fau--return 
Even the lightning version (full electric) they have said no for a RHD which makes zero sense as the main problem with ICE LHD to RHD conversions comes from having a big engine in the way that interferes with moving critical mechanical things like steering etc, full electric doesn't have these limitations.  
The Australian gov't pisses me off when it comes to electric vehicles / supporting infrastructure, we are late to the game, and that's ok as the cost has been very high, but it's time to step up and jump onto the new technology. 
The gov't would rather stay stuck in the 70's, I don't particularly care about coal exports, we can continue to export this to other countries for whatever time we can milk it for which will probably be for the next 20-30 years, China produces 60% of it's electricity from Coal stations, India is a massive emerging market for coal power stations, Japan and many other countries still rely on this resource, so there's no fear of this market dying out any time soon. 
For example, Norway new car sales are now at 84% EV, while still exporting over 1.1 million barrels of oil a day they are not in a hurry to stop exporting oil.
Australia sold 6900 electric vehicles in 2020, then 20,655 in 2021 that's the whole year's sales, this is pathetic compared to Norway with a population of just over 5 million they sold 7957 vehicles just in January this year.     
Other countries offer huge gov't rebates to get into electric vehicles, they have either already installed massive charging networks or rolling them out, we have basically done diddly squat, offer minimal incentives to get into electric vehicles, of penalise you to go electric, charging networks are woeful, with no real vision from the federal gov't to do anything to change this. 
Although there is huge problems in the UK with charger rollout / network not working. 
Australia will not move towards the future with people like Scomo stuck in the 1920's that useless Albanese is just as bad, neither party has any policies to get Australia into the modern world, just keep saying stuff like Technology will lead us into the future, zero emission blah blah all crap, and leave it up to private enterprise to find a way, the federal gov't should be leading the way, offering incentives for companies to set up shop here, invest in creating new technologies and manufacturing here instead were just happy to import everything from other countries making them richer. 
Just look at how quickly petrol prices jump when something goes wrong with the supply chain of oil, this should be a massive wakeup call for the gov't of how reliant we have become on other countries to supply our transportation energy needs. 
That stupid Albanese will most likely get into the top spot not because he is the best person for the job (because he definitely is not) but because Scomo is completely useless has no interest in the country or it's people, is too busy looking after himself and his mates. 
Albanese is just another no hoper with no policies, no leadership skills, no direction for the country, will most likely continue to destroy our country, even if Labour put a chimpanzee up as their "leader" it would get elected because everyone is sick of the lack of leadership the current clown shows, IMO if Liberal want to keep power, they better hurry up and have a leadership challenge because their ship is sinking with Scomo already speeding off in a lifeboat leaving the rest of them to drown.  
Lucky we have our own supply of Gas and other raw resources, Germany and the rest of Europe is at the mercy of Russia with their Gas supply, and have found themselves in a very sticky situation with the war in Ukraine, Russia can very easily turn off the Nordstream pipeline and completely cripple Germany and most other European countries if they wish and there's nothing they can do about it. 
The greens got in power and closed down the nuclear and coal power plants, with the reliance on Russian supplied Gas to generate energy, they are in a bit of trouble now as they can't restart the Nuclear plants because of the greens policies. 
.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> Australia will not move towards the future with people like Scomo stuck in the 1920's that useless Albanese is just as bad, neither party has any policies to get Australia into the modern world

  Can only agree.
Best way forward seems to be a good crop of intelligent Independents getting balance of power in the lower house. 
Only way to get decent policies up.
The parties that exist (all of them) are not going to improve.
But don't expect WA to contribute any decent Independents, still vote with the hip pocket here. 
Just to add, would be good to see all EVs designed from the ground not modified ICEs and priced more reasonably. I haven't drilled into it but I suspect the big EV take up in Norway must be due to competitive pricing.

----------


## Bart1080

> I have some long runs too (60m underground from the consumer pole to the house, and 2 solar/inverter systems, 1 on the house the other on a shed) so figure that will be a consideration. Wish I could find a domestic sparky who was solar intelligent and get across all my installation.

  ...like others have said, just run the conduit/s as its cheap as chips. 
If its 3 phase, run 63mm otherwise 32mm or 40mm.  HAve it bigger then needed and have as few bends in it as possible to make pulling through future cables easier.  Any bends, make sure you use the bigger sweeping bends or heat conduit for a custom bend.  Dont run any draw strings...I've learnt its far easier to run it when its needed by using a vac taped at one end and tying a small rag on builders string line at the other end (enough to suck it through the pipe).  Works like a charm, having easily done this with runs of over 120m. 
While your there, think about running 20 or 25mm blue line for future water to the shed/garage and think about if you need a 32mm comm conduit for phone/cat5.  32mm is overkill but its cheap as chips and has been easy to pull through several cat5 cables as I've needed them

----------


## Moondog55

I doubt Scomo is stuck in the 1920's, I would have said that Scotty from marketing was stuck in the 1860's.
The Albanian still hasn't shown any guts, spark or foresight so I too hope for a swag of strong minded independents in both houses.
Very few in government seem to be able to see past the end of their own **** let along the end of their elected term in office.

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## ForeverYoung

> ...like others have said, just run the conduit/s as its cheap as chips. 
> If its 3 phase, run 63mm otherwise 32mm or 40mm.  HAve it bigger then needed and have as few bends in it as possible to make pulling through future cables easier.  Any bends, make sure you use the bigger sweeping bends or heat conduit for a custom bend.  Dont run any draw strings...I've learnt its far easier to run it when its needed by using a vac taped at one end and tieing a small rag on builders string line at the other end (enough to suck it through the pipe).  Works like a charm, having easily done this with runs of over 120m.

  yep, thanks. The main reason I was asking here (and the reciprocal charger ppl) was to size the conduit, but will just put the biggest in, and maybe two of em.   

> While your there, think about running 20 or 25mm blue line for future water to the shed/garage and think about if you need a 32mm comm conduit for phone/cat5.  32mm is overkill but its cheap as chips and has been easy to pull through several cat5 cables as I've needed them

  Have just run the yard plumbing past the new shed site, had to move it anyway as the old yard route went through the new shed site. 
And had the rock breaker in to lower it a bit, 150mm.

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## John2b

What is the fascination with fast chargers for BEVs? Typically a vehicle spends 12 hours overnight sitting in the garage or carport. That's time enough to stuff 40kWh into the vehicle's battery from a 15A powerpoint (3.5kW), which is 300km of range. I normally charge at just 6A (1.4kW), except in exceptional circumstances. 
We've just hit 80,000km in our Nissan Leaf BEV, so ignoring windscreen washer additive, the cabin ventilation filter is our first service expense.* Damn, that's $30 I could have spent on beer! 
*Not servicing by the book for the benefit of dealers, just servicing by need. There is no regular mechanical service other than checking logs downloaded from the OBDII port.

----------


## ForeverYoung

> What is the fascination with fast chargers for BEVs?

  Think ppl are referring when travelling from A to B but can't make it on 1 charge?
Friends recently were planning on driving to Esperance and worked out they needed 2 overnight stays for charging.

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## John2b

> Think ppl are referring when travelling from A to B but can't make it on 1 charge?
> Friends recently were planning on driving to Esperance and worked out they needed 2 overnight stays for charging.

  Sure, we use the odd fast charge when travelling, but fast charging is irrelevant for home charging.

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## METRIX

> Think ppl are referring when travelling from A to B but can't make it on 1 charge?
> Friends recently were planning on driving to Esperance and worked out they needed 2 overnight stays for charging.

  The west coast is a bit of a wasteland for fast chargers compared to the east coast which is still very woeful, it might look like there's a lot, once you zoom in you realise they are few and far between.
Orange is fast chargers ie 50kw or larger, green regular or snail chargers, usually 15A or 32A socket so no chance of getting anywhere quickly on one of those chargers. 
Below that is Tesla network  still a wasteland compared to overseas, but these are Superchargers up to 250kW

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## METRIX

> Sure, we use the odd fast charge when travelling, but fast charging is irrelevant for home charging.

  Your situation is different, you have a small battery to charge and have access to a charging outlet, in the cities a lot of people live in multi story apartments with multi story open carparks that have no access to charging infrastructure in the carpark.
Some complexes do, but for only a few vehicles at a time, imagine if every resident drove an electric car and there was (lets be generous) 20 chargers how are they all going to charge them up ? 
Or don't have garage access such as the thousands of inner city residents that park on the street so have to use public charging stations.
Until the infrastructure is rolled out, then these types of drivers won't switch because it's a burden to charge it up. 
Lets look at one of the latest incentives here, Rooty Hill train station, 750 commuter spots 10 of these have electric outlets, it's good the energy is coming from over 1000 solar cells on the roof, but what if you have more than 10 people who want to catch the train and charge their vehicle while at work, you can't plus the cars will most likely hog these spots all day as the person has caught the train to work.  https://thedriven.io/2020/02/21/sydn...nd-solar-roof/ 
Here is another one, New Edmondson "world class" carpark 1250 car spots 10 electric spots, it's all a bit of a token effort if you ask me. https://www.liverpoolchampion.com.au...s-world-class/ 
Australia would have to rank at the bottom of the list below under Latvia  :Smilie:

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## METRIX

> Think ppl are referring when travelling from A to B but can't make it on 1 charge?
> Friends recently were planning on driving to Esperance and worked out they needed 2 overnight stays for charging.

  This is a good video, showing the difference driving from Sydney to Melbourne ICE Vs EV.
Not really that big a difference, not many people would do it in one hit, if you have kids you have to stop off on the way to have sanity breaks etc, so probably no difference between vehicles.

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## phild01

> 

  At the moment the assertion that long distances aren't a problem for EV's is not exactly true if you want to head to areas off the beaten track. Towing a rig still the issue and to resolve that issue means big bucks for the occasional extra need for power.

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## Marc

Petrol vs electric vs subsidies by Richard Hammond and Jeremy May  https://youtu.be/-LYhjPqcxUw

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## John2b

> Your situation is different, you have a small battery to charge and have access to a charging outlet, in the cities a lot of people live in multi story apartments with multi story open carparks that have no access to charging infrastructure in the carpark.

  You are correct our situation is different. We are off grid and cannot charge overnight, but only when the sun shines and then only slowly, which requires a bit of planning to take into account weather forecasts and future trips. But it's entirely doable. 
Charging infrastructure for overnight charging consists of a power point, and there's usually one not too far away even in multi-level car parks, and if there isn't it is easy to have one provisioned. But my comment was about the obsession with _domestic_ fast chargers - I can't see the point. 
We do regularly travel to Adelaide (~150km) for an overnight stay and charge off a 10A power point at our friend's place. Personally I would not attempt to travel distances greater than the range of the car because the Nissan Leaf does not have active battery cooling and rapid charges accelerate the ageing of the battery (even for cars _with_ active battery cooling). Rapid charging is like using crap oil in an ICE IMO.

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## Moondog55

The truth is probably that we don't know what the future holds, but it's coming to us very quickly.
Perhaps a better question is what shape our long distance vehicles will look like as small EVs would do Cecile and I for most of the time.
What is the smallest constant speed engine + battery combination suitable for a trip around Australia compared to a vehicle that would be used once a month for shorter holiday trips?
In the next 20 years I reckon I want a nuclear powered wheelchair capable of doing 100kph.

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## METRIX

> Charging infrastructure for overnight charging consists of a power point, and there's usually one not too far away even in multi-level car parks, and if there isn't it is easy to have one provisioned. But my comment was about the obsession with _domestic_ fast chargers - I can't see the point.

  Still doesn't work like you wish outside your ideal bubble, There isn't "spare" power points located in multi story carparks for a reason that someone has to pay for the electricity being used from them, this is why you don't see them, can you imagine the uproar if someone was plugging in every day charging their 100kW battery (impossible to do anyway due to the battery size and current the PPT can supply) then driving it a few hundred k's per day for their courier / taxi job then charging for free courtesy of the building, that wouldn't take long to stop this happening. 
If PPTs are available in these public spaces, they are usually under lock and key only accessible by facilities personnel for trades etc use. 
Another problem is you can't have extension leads / charging leads running over non designated charging spaces in public spaces due to OH&S issues    

> Rapid charging is like using crap oil in an ICE IMO.

  If the battery system is designed properly it should minimise any problems, here is a user who had done over 100,000 Miles and battery still fine, using slow and fast chargers.
There are also many other cases that say the same that are using fast / slow chargers. manufacturers that don't implement active thermal management for the battery are not worth considering buying their product. 
There are also cases who have used just Supercharghing going from Low State of Charge to 100% every time, and have had issues with the batteries, it's like anything a bit of both is probably ok. 
I noticed Samsung latest software update on my phone has an option to stop charging at 80% instead of 100%, I assume if you followed this same type of habit should be ok.
Problem is everyone want's the car to charge at the same speed as filling a tank with petrol so manufacturers have been increasing the amount of energy that can be pushed into the pack at a ridiculous rate.

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## Moondog55

Metrix that "problem" could be solved simply enough by adding in a card or coin operated meter at each power plug, admittedly retro-fitting a PP at each parking bay will cost a lot of money but I've heard that such infrastructure is common in very cold places for people to plug in the sump heaters for their ICE cars

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## METRIX

This is a very interesting video

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## Moondog55

On a slightly different tack.
Having to spend an hour at a service station while your cars battery tops up could be considered a safety argument in its favour. Such stops are or should be part of every drivers travel plan to alleviate fatigue. Was mentioned earlier. Maybe roadside cafes will then start serving real food instead of takeaway crapola loaded with fat and sugar.
That is see the need to stop for an hour or two every 400 to 500 kilometres as a plus and not a negative. If in a hurry charter a plane
I really miss the Shell roadhouse in Wodonga opposite the old saleyards that served the very best liver and onions with bacon [ toast on the side] that ever existed and that took about that needed rest hour to eat.

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## Bros

> On a slightly different tack.
> Having to spend an hour at a service station while your cars battery tops up could be considered a safety argument in its favour. Such stops are or should be part of every drivers travel plan to alleviate fatigue. Was mentioned earlier. Maybe roadside cafes will then start serving real food instead of takeaway crapola loaded with fat and sugar.
> That is see the need to stop for an hour or two every 400 to 500 kilometres as a plus and not a negative. If in a hurry charter a plane
> I really miss the Shell roadhouse in Wodonga opposite the old saleyards that served the very best liver and onions with bacon [ toast on the side] that ever existed and that took about that needed rest hour to eat.

  When I was younger I could drive 900klm in a day but nowdays 500klm is the limit and to get over the crapola food we take our own and stop at roadside rest area's, Not being a cheapskate but I dislike the the food dished up, I used to think it was good once but not any more.

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## METRIX

> When I was younger I could drive 900klm in a day but nowdays 500klm is the limit and to get over the crapola food we take our own and stop at roadside rest area's, Not being a cheapskate but I dislike the the food dished up, I used to think it was good once but not any more.

  I have never been a fan of long drives, nothing bores me more than sitting on a freeway doing 110, if you were able to do 150 then different story.
Had to drive from Sydney to Ballina a while ago was around 700km, it wasn't too bad but only because there was someone else in the vehicle to have a laugh with the whole way. 
I have a mate who commonly drives to gold coast and Melbourne on his own without a second thought, I would rather catch a plane and rent a car.   
Everything is good when young and don't know any better, then you realise it's not, especially when it comes to food. 
Something I hate are days when I need to buy lunch there is hardly anything healthy to eat,
Everything is either hamburgers, hot chips, fatty this fatty that fried this, fried that, very hard to find nice tasty food that's not going to give you a heart attack. 
Went to a takeaway place last week, got a spicy chicken salad in a box, it was really nice, I have been there a few time before, but nearly died when I asked for a juice, it was just a standard glass bottle around 400ml. 
Charged $6.00 for the juice, WTF was too late as I opened it before swiping card, definitely won't be going there again. 
Even the pie place near a Hardware and General, it's one of those flashy big caravan type places, pies are $9.00 - $11.00 for a bloody pie, nothing special like a gold bar with each pie, just the pie forget it.

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## Moondog55

Well mince is now costing almost $25- a kilo and porterhouse almost $60-
I don't expect food to come down in price soon.

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## METRIX

Not quite 25 yet but getting there, Organic is over that

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## John2b

> This is a very interesting video

  Hmm.. There's just a really big thing missing from that otherwise lucid description (pun intended). Every cycle of a battery reduces it's charge capacity. For that very reason normally BEV car manufacturers give the range based on ~2/3 of battery capacity, not 100%. For example a battery with a rated 1000 cycle capacity is going to lose around 0.1% of range per cycle. That may not seem much, but if your BEV has 1000km range on the first charge, it will be 999 on the second, 995 on the 5th, 975 on the 25th, etc. (The battery is considered EOL At 50% of original battery capacity.) 
For that reason most manufacturers design the car to only use ~2/3 of the battery capacity initially, and as the capacity reduces the depth of charge and discharge is slowing increased so that the range stays the same. Lucid is going to end up with a lot of very unhappy customers if they use 100% capacity as an indication of the vehicle's range. Eventually the spare capacity is used up and the the range of the vehicle will reduce slightly for each charge cycle. For most BEVs that will occur a long way past the first 100,000km. 
If you remember the Californian bushfires a couple of years ago, Tesla release an over-the-air firmware update that increased range for people to evacuate. All Tesla did was allow the battery to be cycled more deeply. At the end of the day there are only so many coulombs that can be extracted from any battery, no matter which way it's cut. Sure Lucid can be cleverer in maxing out the contents, but they are still constrained by the same laws of physics as everyone else, despite the enthusiastic description in the video. 
There are new battery chemistries (actually old technologies with new refinements) that will make lithium and the need for rare metals obsolete before the 2020 decade ends, batteries with lower cost and much higher energy densities. The massive subsidies to fossil fuel industries are the main reason these battery technologies have taken so long to realise commercialisation, otherwise electric cars would have been around in the '80s IMO.

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## r3nov8or

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/d...ctric-vehicle/   

> Are electric vehicles ready for the great Australian family holiday? The cars may be, but the country isn’t, as Glenn Butler discovers the hard way.

  
Also, how much is your time worth?   

> We pulled into Bowral at 7:45pm, 11 long hours after we left Melbourne. We had covered 768km at an average speed of 70km/h with an average consumption of 21.1kWh/100km. At best that’s a 350km range. At Chargefox’s 40c/kW our fuel cost just under $65. By my estimate, a petrol-powered car would have done it in two hours less at a cost of $120.

  
I'm sure it will all get better, eventually

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## r3nov8or

Ampol joins the charging brigade  https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...chargefox-evie

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## METRIX

> Ampol joins the charging brigade  https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-new...chargefox-evie

  T 
That's an interesting point about Tesla plans to allow non Tesla cars to use it's charging network, this sort of makes sense on a few levels, 
Tesla's can use non Tesla chargers with an adapter, Tesla is in the business of supplying energy, so it makes sense to open the energy market up to non Tesla owners as well. 
This will be a game changer, as one of the big reasons for purchasing a Tesla was access to the massive network infrastructure. 
The biggest hurdle to buying an electric car is charging port access, Tesla have this one sorted, with chargers everywhere (not in Australia yet) multiple chargers at each site and a network of service techs to deal with any outages quickly, the others will need to step up their game very quickly if they want to even look in the door of charging networks. 
If our gov't was any use they would have pursued VW the same as they did in the US over Diesel Gate. 
Part of the penalties for this was VW had to install $2 Billion of chargers throughout the US, these will be part of the Electrify America network.
What did Australia do about this, NOTHING, we could have got the same deal here. 
US had approximately 500,000 affected vehicles and got a $2 Billion network, Australia had 100,000 affected vehicles so we should have pursued a $400 million settlement the same as the US for an Electrify Australia Network, instead we did nothing, typical.

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## John2b

As far as I am aware, any car has been able to charge from Tesla chargers with an appropriate cable, so nothing new there. 
Below is an interesting video that shows the fallacy of direct comparisons of the energy efficiency of ICE versus BEV vehicles here. The tailpipe of an ICE is at the end of a very long, very inefficient and polluting oil extraction and refining process.

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## METRIX

> As far as I am aware, any car has been able to charge from Tesla chargers with an appropriate cable, so nothing new there.

  Certainly will be new and a big deal for non Tesla owners. 
Non Tesla cars have never been able to use the Tesla charging network, not only is it a different plug (which can be hacked to fix this).
The charger "checks" the car upon plugging in, if it's authenticated, the charger will start up. 
This was done for a few reasons, you don't need to worry about signing up to multiple energy suppliers, and either enter your details, or swipe a card etc to get the charger to start.
For Tesla you just plug in and if authenticated it automatically charges, then charges you for the energy used to your Tesla account, as Tesla is the one supplying the energy. 
It was also done, so if any cars were in an accident and technically written off, the car / batteries can be banned from using the network for safety reasons.
The only way to get the car back on the network is via Tesla, from what I have seen it's almost impossible to have this done once it locked out of the system. 
This would be an interesting one, wonder if you could have a Tesla charging cable with CCS2 on the other end, then another one with CCS2 back to Tesla I wonder if the charger would be able to detect the banned Tesla  !!!

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## John2b

Tesla destination chargers have AFAIK always been able to charge other BEV cars with a suitable cable. Tesla is rolling out a program for Tesla Superchargers to be available to other cars as well. 
https://www.tesla.com/support/non-tesla-supercharging 
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tesla-opens-superchargers-to-other-ev-brands

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## John2b

There was a view expressed in this thread a couple of years back that hydrogen power would soon overrun electric power for cars and other transport. I think I said at the time that view was more than optimistic. Well after a few covid years precluding travel, I'm back in Japan to see my outlaws. At Kyoto Honda's enormous dealership the multi-million dollar hydrogen refuelling station is now islanded in an expanded used vehicle lot. No hydrogen powered car can get near the bowser without moving several rows of used ICE cars first. 
Honda has meanwhile installed electric vehicle chargers in the customer parking bays. But don't tell energy minusta Angus Taylor who's antipathetic views aren't swayed by the physics of thermodynamic laws, let alone the real contemporary experiences of energy done properly. Don't mention the staggering drop in wholesale electricity prices in South Australia thanks to solar and wind generation. That will make him more determined than ever to gift $100s millions taxpayers' money to fossil energy companies for pumping CO2 into old wells to force more fossil fuels out of the ground (AKA carbon capture and storage), just like they have done for nearly a century without subsidies. 
Our month long Japan trip was more than paid for by savings in BEV fuel expenses from just the last 12 months. Mind you based on my observations today there still are bugger all electric cars on the road in Kyoto. YMMV.

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## John2b

We walked past Kyoto Honda again today and realised that their BEV charging stations have been installed in front of the secondhand cars that are in front of the hydrogen refuelling station. I guess that definitively shows Honda's position on hydrogen. Today on the road we saw a few current Nissan Leaf BEVs including one that was a taxi, a Tesla, a Nissan Aria BEV and a squillion Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Mitsubishi, etc, hybrids and PHEVs. There's bugger all BEVs in the scheme of things in Japan so far (at least in Kyoto and a brief stay in Tokyo).

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## Marc

An honest chat on electric cars by someone who owns or used to own one ... or rather, the fallacy of zero emissions. https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk

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## r3nov8or

Well, this is something I didn't expect...   _EV Owners Face Challenges When It’s Time For New Tires_ https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/ev...new-tires/amp/

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## r3nov8or

... And something less unexpected  _Not enough plugs: Australia is driving headlong into an EV fast charging crisis_ https://thedriven.io/2022/05/30/not-...ng-crisis/amp/

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## John2b

> An honest chat...

  Yawn. Same old straw-man arguments, Marc. And no, electric cars are not going to save life as we know it - doh! 
BTW why are you posting a link from someone you'd normally call a nutter because he believes CO2 is causing global warming? Is it because you now realise that it was way back in the 1820s that Joseph Fourier established that the greenhouse effect explained why Earth's temperature was higher than the sun's energy alone could account for? 
A few decades later Eunice Newton Foote, an American scientist, inventor, and women's rights campaigner, published a paper "Circumstances affecting the Heat of the Sun's Rays", identifying the effect of atmospheric CO2, which was presented at the eighth annual American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in 1856 in Albany New York. 
In 1859 John Tyndall confirmed that nitrogen and oxygen are transparent to radiated heat, however confirmed that water vapour and other gases including methane and carbon dioxide absorb radiated heat and re-radiate that heat within the atmosphere. 
By 1896 Svante Arrhenius had published the first climate model showing the temperature increase expected from doubling CO2 to be around 5–6 °C - that’s the long term rise, not the short term transient rise which is what the IPCC is talking about with the 2-3 °C from a doubling of CO2! 
Arrhenius used infrared measurements of the Earth’s radiation reflected in the moon to calculate how much heat is captured by CO2 and water vapour in Earth's atmosphere. The calculation for the effect of a doubling of atmospheric CO2 depended on a factor called the Stefan–Boltzmann constant. In the past 100 years or so the accuracy of the Stefan–Boltzmann constant has only been improved by just a decimal place or two. 
By the 1970s when I studied thermodynamics, all of the science about climate response to CO2 was old hat and _no_ person with a _real_ scientistic understanding questioned the certainty of the effect of atmospheric CO2. It's the same physics that make coal and nuclear power stations work FFS. 
In the 25 years since the Kyoto Protocol was signed in 1997 emissions of CO2 have gone up 50%, not down by the 15% which is what the protocol called for. The result is CO2 global emissions are currently 75% greater than would be the case if signatories the the Kyoto Protocol followed their commitments. 
This wouldn’t be such a big deal for humans if atmospheric temperature was the only important factor. The earth’s weather systems are driven primarily by the energy in the oceans, and as a result of global warming this energy is rising _three_ times faster than the energy in the atmosphere. Expect more 'once in 100 / once in 1000 year' events every year from now on. 
Humans on Earth have now lived the CO2 experiment long enough to confirm unequivocally that Arrhenius was correct 125 years ago about the impact of a doubling of atmospheric CO2, which Earth will reach within the next 40 years.

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## John2b

> Well, this is something I didn't expect...   _EV Owners Face Challenges When It’s Time For New Tires_ https://www.carscoops.com/2022/05/ev...new-tires/amp/

  There's two problems with specifying for tires for BEVs. First, high performance BEVs have acceleration that shreds tires (even a lowly Leaf has enough acceleration to shock petrol-heads). Second, BEVs don't have a powerful noise and vibration generator builtin onboard to obliterate road and tire noise, so quite rightly BEV owners want quieter tires than the ICE driver can appreciate the need for. It's called progress, BTW.

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## John2b

> ... And something less unexpected _Not enough plugs: Australia is driving headlong into an EV fast charging crisis_ https://thedriven.io/2022/05/30/not-...ng-crisis/amp/

  For years I have been trying to convince petrol station owners to equip themselves with fast chargers, because if they don't someone else will - and take their customers. There's no margin in fuel, the money to be made at a petrol station is in high margin impulse sales. And if a customer has to linger longer, there'll be more opportunity sales for the supplier of fast charge stations.

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## METRIX

Was watching some documentaries on Hydrogen cars, I never knew how they work, but they are fascinating, Toyota has done an amazing job in refining the technology..
I think Hydrogen should have been the next step rather than full electric, because there is no weight penalty by having a massive battery, 
You only need a smaller battery and fill up time is on par with petrol, I think it's the logical step for transport and busses etc as the problem with electric trucks the weight penalty of the huge batteries required to move a fully laden truck cuts down on payload, which sort of defies the purpose. 
Would have been better to introduce Hydrogen vehicles, and develop better battery technology for base loads / houses etc.

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## Marc

As usual John, making vast display that misses the point altogether.
 I see nothing changed here, only there is hardly anyone to talk to. 
Rather sad. 
Zero emissions is the topic, one that the current morons in charge will make us pay through the nose to achieve absolutely nothing. 
The electric car is allegedly the tool or one of the tools to achieve "zero emissions".
What I believe is irrelevant, and by the way I say it once more: We can bend backwards and go live in caves and eat raw meat to avoid using fire and it will have zero effect on the weather, the climate or my aunties veggie patch.  
Zero emission (my foot) :
The conventional vehicle comes to the showroom having generated 6 tons of CO2 in the process of fabrication, before it drives a single Km
The electric vehicle comes to the showroom having generated 12 tons of CO2, so you can see that it starts with a massive handicap and needs to be driven 140,000 km to make up for this. 
And the above is for an electric vehicle that has a driving range of 200 km ... if we talk about a vehicle with the equivalent range of a conventional car that can do 600 km ... in order to compare apples with apples, we must talk about a vehicle that can do 600 km with one charge, and to make that kind of car, you will produce over 25 tons of CO2 and in the life of the vehicle it will never catch up with the petrol car and contribute more to the CO2 boogie man than my old 4wd ever produced and I am nearing 400,000 km and counting. To cover the same distance you will need 3 or 4 electric cars and they will be all in the scrap pile and I will most likely still be running on the same original engine.  
Zero emissions is a fallacy because of the way it is measured.
But ... no surprises here. The whole concept of global warming renamed climate change because there is no warming, is a false hypothesis created to shift power and resources towards the new rich on the block.  
But you know all this, it just feel right to say it once more. Electric cars as much as they seem lovely and innovative even when they were invented before the petrol car ... make the CO2 emissions worse. 
Do not despair. and continue to use your electric car. CO2 is not the evil it is made to be, and the "climate" changes constantly due to well known factors that are far away from our grasp. 
I loved Andrew Bolt line when talking about "climate activist" that chanted "Action now" in relation to the floods in northern NSW. -This are the options: do we build a levy ... or do we stop the rain? "Stop the rain! Stop the rain!" 
Yes we can be a collective bunch of idiots when emotions are stimulated appropriately. 
Stop the rain! 
Errr ... didn't the hero of global warming Tim Flannery predicted that our dams will never fill again ... that the rain will be a thing of the past?
Oh yes, sorry that was global warming and now it is climate change ... sorry ... my mistake. 
Come on John ... CO2 is good for you.  :Biggrin:  and for me but it does not rhyme. 
Rather than quoting good old Arrhenius, I would quote Socrates: “The only true wisdom is in knowing you [we] know nothing.” ...

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## phild01

> But ... no surprises here. The whole concept of global warming renamed climate change because there is no warming...

  Come on Marc, give it up. You live in Sydney and must know we have never had so much rain. Look how the Antarctic ice shelf is being undermined by warm currents and then our high east coast rainfalls, not just because of La Nina, but the warmer water at the top of Australia. The extreme high temperatures in the west of Australia and India. Can you really believe we have stable or cooling global temperatures. Enough said on this topic, as we are not resurrecting the Climate change thread.

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## Marc

Stable climate or even stable temperatures is a preposterous concept. 
Climate just like weather is by definition variable and historically fluctuates between extremes that themselves shift constantly.
To believe that governments can reset the thermostat of the world is as naive as believing that legislation change can cure cancer. 
And by the way ... can you advance a hypothesis that makes electric vehicles "zero emission" just for laughs?
That is the topic after all.
Zero ... such wonderfully ultimate and final concept. "zero" ... there is some satisfaction in such finality. Nothing to see here ... ZERO !! 
Read again ... an ordinary electric vehicle needs to be driven 140,000 km before it can catch up with a petrol car. An extraordinary electric vehicle the one that cost a bomb and drive for 4-500 K ... those are off the chart, and will be scrap 3 times over,before the petrol car is.
Electric vehicles are oh so coool !
And yes they are, some of them, not the Rivian unfortunately doomed by  the looks of it ... or by it's looks perhaps?
But don't give me the zero crappola, no such thing as zero.
PS
Global warming  :Cold:  ... the name was a mistake because it introduced a measurablew concept. Rename climate change is like saying "Waves fluctuation" :Doh:

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## phild01

> And by the way ... can you advance a hypothesis that makes electric vehicles "zero emission" just for laughs?

  There is no doubt ev's are polluting to manufacture just like anything and the ted presentation highlights that, just like to see some detail how the stats are derived, not saying they are wrong. On the other hand I just don't see any ice engine having a future long after I am gone.

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## Marc

Internal combustion has a solid future, current fuels not so much. 
Then again ... did you know that Venezuela oil reserves dwarf the arabs' one?
May be we can invent an economical way to produce distillate from coal?
There is a low tech and cheap (relatively) way to make diesel out of scrap plastic. In Europe they go with small depolymerisation plants in tow to schools to show the concept. Many councils have this plants. We don't, we are too clever to fall for that extreme right trick , we are green! Save the planet! Drive electric cars!
I wonder what became of my high school mate who told me when we parted ways, ... if you go to Australia, fight for the wales!
I pictured myself in a punch up with sharks, but somehow it didn't seem feasible.  https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...uid-technology

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## Marc

If you read the article above you will see that oil reserves are not the total oil in existence but what can be extracted economically with current prices and current technology. So when prices go up, or new methods developed, the reserves estimate go up accordingly ... 60% in the last 20 years.
The pontiffs of "peak oil" forgot to tell us this little gem when they started their campaign of misinformation decades ago. If you add to that the new liquid fuels that can be produced with new technology, you can see that the piston engine has still a way to go. 
So called "renewables" so far, have instead achieved large price increases, massive blackouts, and massive pollution to produce and to dispose of panels, batteries and windmill.
 The only way to sell inefficient and super expensive technology, was to demonise the competition with fallacious tabus, lies and false hypothesis. Without the help of artist and billionaires. pretending altruism and with undisclosed large portfolios in renewables industry, this would have been as hard as selling ice to eskimos.  
Keep on going boys, buy electric toys and make the new billionaires into trillionaires.
And you will have a dozen free indulgence from the green popes to be cashed in to pay for your next power bill. 
And feel good about it.
I pump diesel and gas into my car unashamedly.

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## John2b

Just passed 80,000k in the inferior electric car and hit a major expense - had to fit a new cabin air filter for $26. Of course the other major expense was the decision to fit light truck tires about a year ago due to punctures from the rough roads around here. The 4WD does about 4,000k a year these days which is mostly the annual outback excursion, and the odd time I need to pull a trailer. The Leaf would happily pull a trailer, but it is not worth the expense of fitting a tow bar when the oil burner already has one. 
Metrix, whatever Toyota are _saying_ about hydrogen, being in Japan for the past few weeks I can tell you what Toyota are actually _doing_ is upgrading their plethora of Hybrid Synergy Drive models to plug-in status (PHEV) by fitting bigger batteries, whilst frantically working on new BEV platforms. Unless Toyota works out how to circumvent those annoying laws of physics* which determine the behaviour of all energy systems, don't expect any 'breakthroughs' in century old fuel cell physics in your lifetime, or that of your descendants, or their descendants, etc. (*Frankly, there's more chance that you are the Messiah than physics being broken.)

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## cyclic

Hilarious times in the electrical world.
Cannot vouch for the authenticity but ???.   ﻿     *Charging Electric Cars MELBOURNE*    I  recently did some work for the body corporate at the Dock 5 Apartment  Building in Docklands in Melbourne to see if we could install a small  number of electric charging points for owners to charge their electric  vehicles. We had our first three applications. We discovered:     1.       Our  building has no non- allocated parking spaces ie public ones. This  is typical of most apartment buildings so we cannot provide shared  outlets.     2.       The power supply in the building was designed for the loads in the  building with virtually no spare capacity. Only 5 or 6 chargers could be  installed in total in a building with 188 apartments!!     3.       How do you allocate them as they would add value to any apartment  owning one. The @@@@ fight started on day one with about 20 applications  received 1st day and many more following.     4.       The car park sub-boards cannot carry the extra loads of even one  charger and would have to be upgraded on any floors with a charger as  would the supply mains to each sub board.     5.       The main switch board would then have to be upgraded to add the heavier  circuit breakers for the  sub mains upgrade and furthermore:     6.       When Docklands was designed a limit was put on the number of apartments  in each precinct and the mains and transformers in the streets designed  accordingly. This means there is no capacity in the Docklands street  grid for any significant quantity of car chargers in any building in the  area.     7.       It gets better. The whole CBD (Hoddle Grid, Docklands)and Southbank is  fed by two sub stations. One in Port Melbourne and one in West  Melbourne. This was done to have two alternate feeds in case one failed  or was down for maintenance. Because of the growth in the city  /Docklands and Southbank now neither one is now capable of supplying the  full requirement of Melbourne zone at peak usage in mid- summer if the  other is out of action. The Port Melbourne 66,000 volt feeder runs on 50  or 60 year old wooden power poles above ground along Dorcas Street  South Melbourne. One is pole is located 40 cm from the corner Kerb at  the incredibly busy Ferrars /St Dorcas St Intersection and is very vulnerable to being wiped out by a wayward vehicle.     8.      The infrastructure expenditure required would dwarf the NBN cost excluding the new power stations required  These  advocates of electric vehicles only by 2040 are completely bonkers. It  takes 5-8 years to design and build a large coal fired power station  like Loy Yang and even longer for a Nuclear one (That’s after you get  the political will, permits and legislative changes needed ). Wind and  solar just can’t produce enough. Tidal power might but that’s further  away than nuclear.     It's  just a greenies dream in the foreseeable future other than in small  wealthy countries. It will no doubt ultimately come but not in the next  20 years...     The grid cannot support it in most places in Australia!

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## John2b

What is the obsession with domestic rapid chargers for BEVs? We only use fast chargers a few times a year during long journeys. Most cars, including electric ones, spend around 20+ hours of the day parked. Slow charging an electric car uses about the same power as a toaster. I think even the poorly designed electrics of Docklands could cope with that.

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## r3nov8or

> .... Slow charging an electric car uses about the same power as a toaster. I think even the poorly designed electrics of Docklands could cope with that.

  Maybe not when the whole district is also making toast for breakfast  :Biggrin:

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## phild01

The green EV owners could advocate restarting coalfired power for the benefit of off-peak charging overnight  :Wink: .

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## Bros

> Hilarious times in the electrical world.
> Cannot vouch for the authenticity but ???.

  Pretty right for people who live in the real world.

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## Whitey66

> What is the obsession with domestic rapid chargers for BEVs? We only use fast chargers a few times a year during long journeys. Most cars, including electric ones, spend around 20+ hours of the day parked. Slow charging an electric car uses about the same power as a toaster. I think even the poorly designed electrics of Docklands could cope with that.

   Not many people would run a toaster for 9 hours or more a day, so that is a pretty poor comparison imho. If everybody in the district did pull an extra 2.5kW for extended periods there would be issues, they even have issues when everyone turns on their A/C. An EV might work great for you in your little isolated part of the world, but as for the rest of the REAL world, widespread use of EVs will be a long way off due to the lack of electrical infrastructure. My money is on Hydrogen for this reason, sure it mightn't be popular in Japan, but neither you nor I live in Japan do we? Japan is a lot different to Australia in so many ways and what works over there may not work at all over here. Unless Doc Emmet Brown releases the details of "Mr Fusion" https://backtothefuture.fandom.com/wiki/Mr._Fusion , Hydrogen is Australia's future imho.

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## Uncle Bob

> Maybe not when the whole district is also making toast for breakfast

  Surely there's gotta be some cereal munchers to save the day?  :Biggrin:

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## Uncle Bob

> My money is on Hydrogen

  I wonder if Bob is still running on Hydrogen.

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## John2b

> The green EV owners could advocate restarting coalfired power for the benefit of off-peak charging overnight .

   There's no need to restart anything. There is an ongoing problem with not enough electricity consumption overnight to keep dinosaur generators running efficiently.

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## John2b

> An EV might work great for you in your little isolated part of the world, but as for the rest of the REAL world, widespread use of EVs will be a long way off due to the lack of electrical infrastructure.

   That's hilarious! Not having a grid connection makes energy management more difficult, not easier! For the real world, charging electric cars overnight is a solution to an current problem, namely using existing excess generation and transmission capacity when demand is low. I have the unusual problem of no generation capacity overnight when my BEV is sitting there unused.

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## Bros

> An EV might work great for you in your little isolated part of the world, but as for the rest of the REAL world, widespread use of EVs will be a long way off due to the lack of electrical infrastructure.

  Totally agree.

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## John2b

If every grid connected household in Australia can spare just a single 10A power point overnight for ~7 hours that will deliver enough energy for 850 million kilometres of range per day, enough for every person in Australia old enough to have a license to drive themselves more than 40km (the average distance cars are driven each day in Australia). 
It would add just 15% to the country's total required electricity generation, and would be supplied almost entirely by what is currently undespatch-able spare capacity in electricity generation, with no impact on peak loads or need to upgrade, by improving the duty cycle of existing infrastructure.

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## Forrestmount

> Just passed 80,000k in the inferior electric car and hit a major expense - had to fit a new cabin air filter for $26. Of course the other major expense was the decision to fit light truck tires about a year ago due to punctures from the rough roads around here. The 4WD does about 4,000k a year these days which is mostly the annual outback excursion, and the odd time I need to pull a trailer. The Leaf would happily pull a trailer, but it is not worth the expense of fitting a tow bar when the oil burner already has one. 
> Metrix, whatever Toyota are _saying_ about hydrogen, being in Japan for the past few weeks I can tell you what Toyota are actually _doing_ is upgrading their plethora of Hybrid Synergy Drive models to plug-in status (PHEV) by fitting bigger batteries, whilst frantically working on new BEV platforms. Unless Toyota works out how to circumvent those annoying laws of physics* which determine the behaviour of all energy systems, don't expect any 'breakthroughs' in century old fuel cell physics in your lifetime, or that of your descendants, or their descendants, etc. (*Frankly, there's more chance that you are the Messiah than physics being broken.)

  Hmm-yes hydrogen has been around a while and it is great thing they just invented electrify to run the BEV’s last year  
Queensland has a hydrogen minister and we ( Andrew Forrest) are building large hydrogen plants up over he country.  
Whatever the further holds what I can say with certainty, I don’t have the time to wait overnight to “fill my tank” the BEV option falls over from this point. So either I get a hydrogen car or I use fossil fuel.  
Pro

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## Bros

> So either I get a hydrogen car or I use fossil fuel.
> Pro

   Pretty easy choice there.

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## John2b

> Whatever the further holds what I can say with certainty, *I don’t have the time to wait overnight* to “fill my tank” the BEV option falls over from this point. So either I get a hydrogen car or I use fossil fuel.

   

> Pretty easy choice there.

  Yep Bros, neither. Lot's of people have opinions about future energy, but the laws of physics couldn't care a hoot about opinions. Some people possibly don't have the time to wait overnight while their hot water service heats, or for their shares go up in value, either. 
But as far as energy is concerned, check back in a few years time. The world needs fossil energy sources to make the fertilisers, pesticides and herbicides that underpin the modern agricultural revolution which allows so many people to eat. Wanna drive a recreational vehicle with a fossil fuel in the not so distant future and see how popular you are - not! 
As for hydrogen for personal transport, a volume of around 11 cubic metres at atmospheric pressure is needed to store just 1 kg of hydrogen, which is the quantity needed to drive 100 km. Storing hydrogen at 700 times atmospheric pressure helps, but if you think that is easy... 
The complications, inefficiency of production, difficulty of distribution and storage of hydrogen compared to other energy storage systems for personal mobility collectively make battery electric vehicles look stunningly attractive. But wait, pre WWII battery physics are finally getting some R&D finance that will make current lithium batteries look like what they are: exotic, expensive and low energy density. 
Frankly small modular nuclear reactors are the way to go if you truely want an erroneous energy source.

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## Bros

> Yep Bros, neither.

  I live in the real world with the vast majority of the population so petrol cars for me diesel doesn't do a lot for me even though I own one.

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## r3nov8or

> If every grid connected household in Australia can spare just a single 10A power point overnight for ~7 hours that will deliver enough energy for 850 million kilometres of range per day, enough for every person in Australia old enough to have a license to drive themselves more than 40km (the average distance cars are driven each day in Australia). 
> It would add just 15% to the country's total required electricity generation, and would be supplied almost entirely by what is currently undespatch-able spare capacity in electricity generation, with no impact on peak loads or need to upgrade, by improving the duty cycle of existing infrastructure.

  News tonight had NSW and QLD stating they had no spare capacity and pleading to turn things of. Wonder who is right

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## John2b

> News tonight had NSW and QLD stating they had no spare capacity and pleading to turn things of. Wonder who is right

  A lack of generation capacity for the late afternoon peak demand does not exclude excess generation capacity when demand is minimal. As is obvious in the historic Queensland electricity demand curve below, from midnight to 7am below there's plenty of spare capacity for slow charging electric cars sleeping in their garages. A not so obvious but very real benefit from using this untapped demand is the ensuing improvement of the economics of running coal fire power-stations which, if only there was somewhere for their output to go, could run more efficiently overnight. This would improve coal's overall economic performance possibly allowing shut down dates to be put off.

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## phild01

> ...but very real benefit from using this untapped demand is the ensuing improvement of the economics of running coal fire power-stations which, if only there was somewhere for their output to go, could run more efficiently overnight. This would improve coal's overall economic performance possibly allowing shut down dates to be put off.

  ah ha! #1890

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## Bros

> News tonight had NSW and QLD stating they had no spare capacity and pleading to turn things of. Wonder who is right

  You need to look deeper to get the reason. The price in Queensland is capped at $300 a mwh and those with generation eg gas turbines won’t release them for use at this price, so you can say it is blackmail by these companies however AEMO can force these generators to run.  https://aemo.com.au/newsroom/media-r...Ii1lbz7PnVHSMQ

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## Bros

> This would improve coal's overall economic performance possibly allowing shut down dates to be put off.

  Sounds like you are preaching heresy.

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## cyclic

THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE SCAM AND OUR CARLESS FUTURE  This whole idea of ‘transitioning’ over to electric vehicles, is starting to look more and more like a huge smokescreen to me. One masking the true agenda behind Queensland’s ‘zero emissions’ future –getting rid of individual car ownership altogether. You  just have to take a close look at what electrifying the State’s whole  transport system would entail, to understand the whole thing is  completely impossible. It means replacing ALL our petrol fuelled cars, trucks, trains, boats, motorcycles, barges and farm transport by 2050. And  probably a lot sooner given the Government’s current roadmap includes a  50% ban on combustion engine sales by 2030, and a 100% ban by 2036. At that point they will either impose a complete ban or so many pollution taxes no-one will be able to drive them anyway. People  accepted this ‘transition’ largely because they were led to believe  they will emerge from the whole process still owning some kind of car,  albeit an electric one. I see three key problems with that idea. There’s time. There’s scale. And there’s cost. Right now, there are over 1.2 billion motor vehicles in the world. Just imagine what replacing 1.2 billion motor vehicles is going to mean in terms of energy, labour, cost and resources. Does  the world even have the number of engineers or manufacturing plants  needed to build that many EVs, let alone all the new infrastructure and  transmission capacity to support them? In  Queensland, we have 4,303,713 million registered motor vehicles, only  8,000 of which are electric. That leaves 4,295,713 million vehicles to  be replaced. In  2019, Professor Richard Herrington of the Head of Earth Sciences at the  British Natural History Museum, told the British Government: “Converting  UK’s vehicles to electricity by 2050 would require two times the total  annual world cobalt production, nearly the entire world production of  neodymium, three quarters the world’s lithium production and at least  half of the world’s copper production.” That’s just the UK! “Society needs to understand that there is a raw-material cost of going green”, Herrington wrote. And that’s the problem. Governments have not been honest with people about any of this. Last month, green energy experts admitted that 90-95 percent of the supply chain for EVs simply “DOES NOT EXIST”. The  EV CEO of Ford Motors, RJ Scaringe, spelt it out – “the world simply  doesn’t have the resources or supply chain to transition ALL Americans  into EVs”. “All the world’s cell production combined represents well under 10 percent of what we will need in 10 years” he said. Did you catch that? 90 percent to 95 percent of the EV supply chain does not even exist yet! 
I respect the Authors wishes to remain anonymous.

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## John2b

> ah ha! #1890

  No need to restart coal generators to power a national fleet of electric cars, just use the excessive amount of currently un-despatched electricity from existing coal-fired power generation.

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## John2b

> Sounds like you are preaching heresy.

  The laws of conservation of energy which underpin the efficiency of energy generation, distribution and consumption are not swayed by political opinions or personal choices, mine or anyone else's. 
Not directed at you personally Bros, but some contributors to this thread have relentlessly misinterpreted my posts on energy and electric cars since the strawman argument logical fallacy Marc posted three years ago here: #1

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## John2b

> THE ELECTRIC VEHICLE SCAM AND OUR CARLESS FUTURE... I respect the Authors wishes to remain anonymous.

   Cyclic I'm sure after writing such nonsense they would want to remain anonymous. I'll debunk one farcical claim which should have had alarms bells ringing loud and clear before anyone reposted this nonsense:  “Converting UK’s vehicles to electricity by 2050 would require ... at least half of the world's copper production." 
Think about it, there is far, far more copper in the BEV owner's house than in their car. Why did the author feel the need to make such a farcical claim? 
BTW RJ Scaringe is not Ford's CEO of EVs, but the founder of the electric SUV manufacturer Rivian (of which Ford owns about 10% of shares). Scaringe obviously sees a promising future for BEVs, as do Ford.

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## Bros

> News tonight had NSW and QLD stating they had no spare capacity and pleading to turn things of. Wonder who is right

  I see AEMO has capped NSW to $300 so the gas turbines wont be bidding and holding back waiting for the order.

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## Uncle Bob

With the skyrocketing fuel prices, the oil companies are shooting themselves in the foot and forcing people to look at electric cars. Maybe big oil is just having their last hurray (I bloody hope so).

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## r3nov8or

Last hurrah, that'll last a couple of decades...

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## cyclic

> Cyclic I'm sure after writing such nonsense they would want to remain anonymous. I'll debunk one farcical claim which should have had alarms bells ringing loud and clear before anyone reposted this nonsense: “Converting UK’s vehicles to electricity by 2050 would require ... at least half of the world's copper production." 
> Think about it, there is far, far more copper in the BEV owner's house than in their car. Why did the author feel the need to make such a farcical claim? 
> BTW RJ Scaringe is not Ford's CEO of EVs, but the founder of the electric SUV manufacturer Rivian (of which Ford owns about 10% of shares). Scaringe obviously sees a promising future for BEVs, as do Ford.

  All nonsense aside, if the claim of the Qld Govt banning 50% sales of ICE by 2030 (6.5 years away) is correct then it begs the question,
Do they stop 50% of sales of new ICE ?
Do they ban current ICE over a certain age ?
Do they up the price of fuel to older ICE ?
Do they refuse to register older ICE ?
Or simply tax them out of existence ?
And another question must be asked, what happens to motor sport facilities ? Will these venues be turned into housing estates ? 
I presently have one 4 cylinder ICE 7 years old with low K's and one 6 cylinder 15 year old ICE and I have no intention of joining the flock by spending a stupid amount of cash on a battery powered vehicle
besides the 15 year old Commodore is more comfortable even with 200000 K's on it and I can still throw tools/bicycle etc in the back or hook the trailer on for heavy/dump runs.
Besides it is evident right now there is not enough electricity to charge these things. 
FWIW I just read Fortescue are transitioning 45% of their Pilbara truck fleet to hydrogen and battery by 2025 but of course Forrest is building hydrogen plants to make sure he has the fuel supply.

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## John2b

> "All nonsense aside, if the claim of the Qld Govt banning 50% sales of ICE by 2030 (6.5 years away) is correct"

   That statement is nonsense, it's a target not a ban.   

> Do they stop 50% of sales of new ICE ?

   The market will decide, but car manufacturers know the overwhelming majority of people who drive an electric car regularly say they don't want to buy an ICE again.   

> Do they ban current ICE over a certain age ?

   They don't ban cars over a certain age now and unlikely to change.   

> Do they up the price of fuel to older ICE ?

   They won't need to. It is already more expensive to run an ICE than a BEV, even after taking into account the higher purchase price of BEVs.   

> Do they refuse to register older ICE ? Or simply tax them out of existence ?

   Can't see why. They didn't for the introduction of seat belts, pollution control or other very significant technical improvements.   

> And another question must be asked, what happens to motor sport facilities ? Will these venues be turned into housing estates?

   Just because it is conspicuous by absence from Australian TV screen does not mean there isn't already a thriving BEV motorsport industry in many countries, including rallies, Grand Prix and circuits, drags and hillclimb.   

> I presently have one 4 cylinder ICE 7 years old with low K's and one 6 cylinder 15 year old ICE and I have no intention of joining the flock by spending a stupid amount of cash on a battery powered vehicle besides the 15 year old Commodore is more comfortable even with 200000 K's on it and I can still throw tools/bicycle etc in the back or hook the trailer on for heavy/dump runs.

   That makes sense.   

> Besides it is evident right now there is not enough electricity to charge these things.

   I've already shown that there is enough electricity for a national BEV fleet (even with the current electricity "shortfall") here: #1904

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## Marc

The question is not if we have enough power supply (we don't), or if we have enough metal and minerals to make this things (we don't) ... the question is WHY do we NEED to have them in the first place. 
Just like the farcical scaremongering of "global warming" rebaptiszed climate change (because the warming did not come) was and is based on the false hypothesis of the CO2 boogeyman ending the world yesterday, electric cars are based on the bold faced lie that they are "cleaner" ... (because CO2 is dirty you see, just like coal is clearly dirty since it stains your hands black) 
But ... are electric cars "cleaner" , meaning do they produce less CO2?
And the answer is no. They are not cleaner since they in fact produce way more CO2 to be made, from double to triple a conventional car. Their lifespan is 1/2 or 1/3 that of a conventional car, and the pollution of manufacturing them and disposing them with their battery is a nightmare we can discuss another time.  
Once the car is built and we start driving, you must drive an electric car 140,000 km to offset that initial handicap of the CO2 to make them.
And some of the fancier electric cars, produce so much more CO2 to be built that they never ever catch up in their lifespan. 
So, why on earth are we even talking about electric cars?
The answer is rather sad, we talk about and we buy them, because we have been brainwashed by celebrities and billionaires who pedal renewables to build up a market they have vested interest in, that would otherwise be unviable.  
I must say that my first statement about electric cars in the first post of this thread just about sums it up.
We buy into the electric car bulldust because we are collectively rather stupid.
Just like we bought into the "global warming" fallacy.
And into the "climate change" farce. 
Kind of tells it all about our collective IQ. 
And as far as "the dead of the piston car ... or even the oil industry ... " https://youtu.be/VyF2L7WH6Dw
And almost seriously: https://youtu.be/YdPN56qke0Y

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## John2b

In alignment with a shift within historic vehicle circles, one of the largest historical motoring events in the world, the Bay to Birdwood with cars dating back to the early 1900s, welcomes electric converted historic vehicles.  "By doing this we are actually saving some vehicles that would have been lost to us.By converting them to electric, they're more reliable, more powerful and a lot safer.
We really appreciate the fact the story of these cars gets to survive.  https://baytobirdwood.history.sa.gov...sion-category/  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-...gory/101169962

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## Whitey66

> In alignment with a shift within historic vehicle circles, one of the largest historical motoring events in the world, the Bay to Birdwood with cars dating back to the early 1900s, welcomes electric converted historic vehicles."By doing this we are actually saving some vehicles that would have been lost to us.By converting them to electric, they're more reliable, more powerful and a lot safer.
> We really appreciate the fact the story of these cars gets to survive.  https://baytobirdwood.history.sa.gov...sion-category/  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-...gory/101169962

  What a disgrace, destroying something old with charm by replacing the very thing that gives these old vehicles their character. This would be like getting a 200 year old grandfather clock and pulling the mechanical movement out of it and fitting a digital clock display.

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## phild01

:What he said:

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## Marc

Religious dogma knows no boundaries.
One of my Japanese relatives that was the keeper of hundreds of years old family ashes that are kept in the ancestor's shrine, was convinced by the pastor that this was idolatry to false gods and talked her into throwing everything out. 
I am sure the pastor though he had saved a soul. 
Idiocy also knows no boundaries.

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## PhilT2

> What a disgrace, destroying something old with charm by replacing the very thing that gives these old vehicles their character. This would be like getting a 200 year old grandfather clock and pulling the mechanical movement out of it and fitting a digital clock display.

  Hot rodders and engine swappers have been modifying old vehicles for a long time but suddenly when someone converts a vehicle to electric power its a crime? The vehicle mentioned in the article appears to be only a 50's landrover anyway, most of which have had the original engine replaced by a holden red six long ago, so it probably hasn't been original for a long time.

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## John2b

> This would be like getting a 200 year old grandfather clock and pulling the mechanical movement out of it and fitting a digital clock display.

  A more accurate analogy would be to replace the worn out chain barrel with a clock motor that turns the gears so the clock can still function and look original.

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## Whitey66

> A more accurate analogy would be to replace the worn out chain barrel with a clock motor that turns the gears so the clock can still function and look original.

  Have you ever been to a historic or vintage  car show? Every bonnet is up and you'll find most enthusiasts will be very interested in what's under the bonnet, be it a standard or a different modified engine. Take your Leaf to a car show and see how many people are interested in looking under it's bonnet. It's all about the noise, sounds, vibration and smell of the beautiful internal combustion engine. No point in arguing about it with you, you obviously just don't get it and never will.

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## Uncle Bob

Going forward there will be a lot of ICE to electric conversions.

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## phild01

> Going forward there will be a lot of ICE to electric conversions.

  In what way do you mean UB, like people simply keeping the old and converting rather than buying new?

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## Uncle Bob

> In what way do you mean UB, like people simply keeping the old and converting rather than buying new?

  Yip. There's even been one done the other way  :Redface: )    
Jump to 23:53 for lift off

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## John2b

> Have you ever been to a historic or vintage  car show? Every bonnet is up and you'll find most enthusiasts will be very interested in what's under the bonnet, be it a standard or a different modified engine. Take your Leaf to a car show and see how many people are interested in looking under it's bonnet. It's all about the noise, sounds, vibration and smell of the beautiful internal combustion engine. No point in arguing about it with you, you obviously just don't get it and never will.

  In my teenage years every birthday was spent at Collingrove for the National Hillclimb Championships. In the late 1980s I was president of the BMW Drivers Club of SA for several years and organiser of 3 BMW Nationals in SA which of included Concourse D' Elegances and circuit racing for historic and contemporary BMW cars and motorcycles. During this period I was guest Concourse D' Elegance judge for other state Nationals. I was invited to drive my old 528i on a parade lap of the Adelaide Grand Prix for BMW's 75th Anniversary and that privilege included a four day 24 hour pit pass. Of course I attended every Grand Prix in Adelaide and even knew Jereme Lockings and Steve Lewis who performed the trackside tracheotomy which saved Mika Hakkinen's life at the Adelaide Grand Prix, because I had not long previously invited them to a club meeting to talk about the importance of helmets. David Brabham was my circuit driving coach at Malalla and over the years I drove in motorsport events on circuits in NSW and Victoria. 
So no, I don't have a clue. And BTW people often ask me to open the bonnet of the Leaf.

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## Marc

> What a disgrace, destroying something old with charm by replacing the very thing that gives these old vehicles their character. This would be like getting a 200 year old grandfather clock and pulling the mechanical movement out of it and fitting a digital clock display.

  Whitey ... to agree with you it is necessary to appreciate older cars, or older things. Disgraceful "improvements" are very common and due to blissful ignorance. Hot rods that destroy collectable vintage vehicles. or "sporterizing" 100 year old guns are just an example. Converting cars to electric is not new. Was done in the sixties and seventies with cheap cars busted beyond repair. Conversion kits where available to DIY.
If someone decides to convert to electric an Hisapano-Suiza, or a Cord, he probably needs to see a psychiatrist urgently, however, If someone wants to tinker with converting a Ford ... as long as it is not a 1972 Grand Torino Sport, I say have fun. 
If people do this to preach their false dogma that electric cars don't produce CO2, I object. And I say your electric car will give us blackouts galore due to government incompetence and their political urge to kiss green buts.  :Annoyed: 
The green party should be shut down and declared a terrorist organisation.

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## UseByDate

> In my teenage years every birthday was spent at Collingrove for the National Hillclimb Championships. In the late 1980s I was president of the BMW Drivers Club of SA for several years and organiser of 3 BMW Nationals in SA which of included Concourse D' Elegances and circuit racing for historic and contemporary BMW cars and motorcycles. During this period I was guest Concourse D' Elegance judge for other state Nationals. I was invited to drive my old 528i on a parade lap of the Adelaide Grand Prix for BMW's 75th Anniversary and that privilege included a four day 24 hour pit pass. Of course I attended every Grand Prix in Adelaide and even knew Jereme Lockings and Steve Lewis who performed the trackside tracheotomy which saved Mika Hakkinen's life at the Adelaide Grand Prix, because I had not long previously invited them to a club meeting to talk about the importance of helmets. David Brabham was my circuit driving coach at Malalla and over the years I drove in motorsport events on circuits in NSW and Victoria. 
> So no, I don't have a clue. And BTW people often ask me to open the bonnet of the Leaf.

  
Mike drop.  :Smoke1:

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## Whitey66

> In my teenage years every birthday was spent at Collingrove for the National Hillclimb Championships. In the late 1980s I was president of the BMW Drivers Club of SA for several years and organiser of 3 BMW Nationals in SA which of included Concourse D' Elegances and circuit racing for historic and contemporary BMW cars and motorcycles. During this period I was guest Concourse D' Elegance judge for other state Nationals. I was invited to drive my old 528i on a parade lap of the Adelaide Grand Prix for BMW's 75th Anniversary and that privilege included a four day 24 hour pit pass. Of course I attended every Grand Prix in Adelaide and even knew Jereme Lockings and Steve Lewis who performed the trackside tracheotomy which saved Mika Hakkinen's life at the Adelaide Grand Prix, because I had not long previously invited them to a club meeting to talk about the importance of helmets. David Brabham was my circuit driving coach at Malalla and over the years I drove in motorsport events on circuits in NSW and Victoria. 
> So no, I don't have a clue. And BTW people often ask me to open the bonnet of the Leaf.

  Oh I get it now, you were OK once but then you turned into an old EV fuddy duddy  :Smilie: .

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## Forrestmount

My take on that response was actually proof of a lack of understanding of keeping vintage cars original. But maybe I interpreted being part of a modern car club incorrectly.  
I actually own a 60’s car I restored and received a lot of advice on mods to improve it. My thoughts were it is a 70 year old and it runs. Do I need to improve it. Maybe EVs will get to 70 years old. I won’t be around to find out    Seo

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## John2b

> My take on that response was actually proof of a lack of understanding of keeping vintage cars original. But maybe I interpreted being part of a modern car club incorrectly. I actually own a 60’s car I restored and received a lot of advice on mods to improve it. My thoughts were it is a 70 year old and it runs. Do I need to improve it. Maybe EVs will get to 70 years old. I won’t be around to find out

  Of the 10,000s of ICE motor vehicle models produced over the last century only a tiny fraction ever became keepers or cult cars. It's likely that in the future this will apply to BEVs as well. 
When I was active in BMW Clubs Australia (until  early 2000s) by far the most common BMW club car owned was an '02 series built from '66 to '77. With the exception of special classes (e.g. the many modified classes) being as original as practicable gains points in a concours. I owned a concours winning '86 '3 series, which was not only my daily drive but also my clubsport competition car. I entered it in the annual Concours d'Elegance in its model class where the mostly unseen suspension, brake and engine modifications did not count against it enough to spoil its chances, although an EV conversion possibly would have - only Doc and Marty would know.

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## Marc

> My take on that response was actually proof of a lack of understanding of keeping vintage cars original. But maybe I interpreted being part of a modern car club incorrectly.  
> I actually own a 60’s car I restored and received a lot of advice on mods to improve it. My thoughts were it is a 70 year old and it runs. Do I need to improve it. Maybe EVs will get to 70 years old. I won’t be around to find out    Seo

  Spot on. Collector cars ... or "cult" cars as per john's disgraceful epithet ... become collectable for a variety of reasons, being efficient or even practical is not one of them.
For that you buy a Hyundai Getz. 
I used to own a Buick 1927 convertible. Fantastic car, would take off in third gear with 14 people in it. I sold it to a collector that restored it and he paid good money for it only because it was completely original down to the colour. Turning it into a practical family car by tossing the 8 in line out and replacing it with a modern chainsaw engine, or worse an electric motor, would turn it into worthless junk. Best quality the Buick had was that it could run on kero. In fact I run it on 50/50 kero petrol. Kero was about 1/3 the cost of petrol then. 
Another collectable I owned and that was the antithesis of practical was my BMW Isetta. Two seats, front access door, 250cc one cylinder air cooled engine. Worth good money today ... if I had it ... Collectables become so by virtue of amateurs who, as the word denotes, love the car for what it is, and keep it original and in good nick.
I have my eye on a Ford Model A convertible or a voiturette with hard top. Hard to find original since they fall prey of the hot shise enthusiast, and it seems will be also the target of the electric dullards.
Life is like a box of chocolates ...

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## UseByDate

Nooooo!!!!!!!!!  
 I had an Isetta “bubble car” back in 1966. I used it for one year to get to and from university. Much warmer and drier than a motorbike. I all but gave it away when the timing chain broke. Just looked up how much they are now selling for............ $50,000+.

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## ForeverYoung

Used to go to school in my mate's Fiat Bambino.
Clutch return was a washing machine spring attached to the handbrake.
Party trick was 4 of us would pile out, each pick up a corner and lift it onto the verge between 2 trees.

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## Marc

https://www.bmw.com/en/automotive-li...sale-tips.html

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## John2b

I nearly bought a BMW Isetta and later I nearly bought a BMW 700, the sedan that surpassed the Isetta, but neither was suitable as a daily drive. The 700 I didn't buy was restored later by a BMW crash repairer and I did get to drive it. No regrets though. All things old are new again...    https://gaadiwaadi.com/microlino-res...lectric-motor/

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## Marc

The few times I've been to Adelaide, what struck me most was the deplorable state of many of the cars circulating. Cuba came to mind ...  :Smilie:    https://youtu.be/xPWRS4TKn10

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## r3nov8or

Electric Cars. Discuss

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## Marc

What happens when the battery dies? ... (Not much really) ... and, why is the video preview not working? Yes, I used the little video thingy ... https://youtu.be/wd2ArceiJd0  
What happens if ... https://youtu.be/CUgbmCSmSNY

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## r3nov8or

I found this interesting (Facebook link)  https://fb.watch/e0FYs-HgvM/

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## Marc

Yep, very good ... until the end when he states "The emission benefits of electric cars is very real" ... sorry dude, they are not, in fact they are made up, false, fake, not true. There are no 'emission benefits' if by that you mean co2 reduction.  
However, considering that CO2 is harmless and that it's boogeyman status was fabricated, electric cars must be assessed using different parameters. 
How much do they cost, how much pollution to make them, how many km do they serve us all up, how much do we pay for those km, how much does it cost to dispose of them.  
And so, once the fake variable co2 is taken out of the equation, once there is a level plain field to compare apple with apples, once the emotional and religious component is exposed, all of a sudden, buying an electric vehicle does not seem as such a good idea ... for now anyway.  
No different from "renewables". Take away the "pollution" status of CO2, you are left with an industry that is expensive, unreliable, highly polluting in real terms. A non viable proposition ... unless of course you pay a corrupt politician to do the selling and you provide corrupt data for the sale pitch. 
So ... why do people buy electric cars again?
I suppose it's the same reason people buy stretchy jeans with holes ripped in them.

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## Uncle Bob

How's the river Marc?

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## Marc

This time we may be lucky. It seems it will affect Richmond/Windsor/Penrith more than downstream. It's a waiting game and the lack of action from the council is not helping. The landslide from 3 previous floods is still there awaiting removal and blocking the road.
May be wishful thinking. I passed the Cattai creek bridge on Sunday morning and water was one meter under the deck. 3 hours later there was one meter over it. This is the direct result of massive number of development that turned farmland into tiles and pvc pipes.   http://hawkesburyfloodstats.com/?fbc...i-6vcF8kgt4mLY

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## ForeverYoung

> ... This is the direct result of massive number of development that turned farmland into tiles and pvc pipes.  
> ...

  EV OT, I know. But what you have pointed out a lot don't realise is a (major) contributor.

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## phild01

> EV OT,

   :Confused:

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## ForeverYoung

Electric Vehicle, Off Topic - cause I am yooth.

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## Marc

'Off topic' ... matter of opinion. 
I started this thread to highlight this kind of bulldust:   

> Compared to conventional cars, plug-in electric vehicles (EVs) dramatically reduce greenhouse gas emissions.  This is true even after accounting for the power plant emissions from the electricity to charge them. That's why environmental groups have been calling on policymakers, automakers, the media, and the public to support an accelerated switch to plug-in cars, while simultaneously slashing fossil fuel emissions in other ways -like improving mass transit and expanding solar power.  In his state of the union address four years ago, President Obama said, "we can break our dependence on oil and become the first country to have one million electric vehicles on the road by 2015." Today we can more accurately estimate that we'll have roughly 400,000 EVs on the road by the end of 2015.  We will likely hit the 1 million mark around 2018. Still, not a bad start for a new category of passenger vehicles. EV sales have grown faster out of the gates than hybrid cars first did.

  And in the same category of bold faced lies, to sell what would be otherwise unsellable, is the claim that CO2 from fossil fuels is responsible for the current floods. so ... more electric vehicles nicer weather.  
The above verbal diarrhea only deserves one destination. 
Flush.  Possibly in a compost toilet.

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## Marc

If you believe the headlines, traditional automobiles are speeding toward a dead end. All those V8s, V6s and turbocharged vehicles we’ve grown to love will soon be replaced by squadrons of clean, whisper-quiet, all-electric vehicles. And if you believe the headlines, the environment will be much better off.
 All of this might make sense if electric vehicles, as their supporters claim, were truly likely to reduce air pollution and tackle climate change. But are they? To answer that question, I used the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s most recent long-term forecasts for the number of new electric vehicles through 2050, estimated how much electricity they’d use, and then figured out how much pollution that electricity would generate, looking at three key pollutants regulated under the U.S. Clean Air Act—sulfur dioxide (SO2), oxides of nitrogen (NOX), and particulates—as well as CO2 emissions. I compared them to the emissions of new gasoline-powered vehicles, using the EIA’s “real world” miles-per-gallon forecast, rather than the higher CAFE standard values. What I found is that widespread adoption of electric vehicles nationwide will likely _increase air pollution compared with new internal combustion vehicles. You read that right: more electric cars and trucks will mean more pollution. https://www.politico.com/agenda/stor...onment-000660/_

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## Bros

> If you believe the headlines, traditional automobiles are speeding toward a dead end.

  You did leave an important bit out.   

> Most electric-vehicle buyers are far wealthier than average Americans. A nationwide survey in 2017 found that 56% had household incomes of at least $100,000 and 17% had household incomes of at least $200,000. (In 2016, median household income for the US as a whole was less than $58,000.)* So it’s fair to say the subsidies disproportionately benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor, who cannot afford to buy even subsidized electric vehicles or live in their own homes to take advantage of residential chargers or solar panels.**Not only that, the wires and charging stations needed to charge all those electric vehicles will be paid for by all ratepayers, further raising electric rates. And as more wealthy customers install solar panels to charge their electric vehicles, the costs to provide them back-up power will fall on those who cannot afford to do so.* *In effect, the wealthy owners of electric vehicles will enjoy the benefits of their clean, silent cars, while passing on many of the costs of keeping their vehicles on the road to everyone else, especially the poor.*

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## Marc

True, the very reason 'environmentalism' is the realm of the wealthy. All those oh so altruistic billionaire 'benefactors' play this sport for their own agenda. 
I wanted to highlight the purely technical aspect, and leave the social one for someone else to pick up, for a change. 
The best business to make money is a 'foundation' for ... the less fortunate, the environment, the koalas, the polar bears, the endangered left handed crickets  ... 
Meantime, the chinese controlled port of newcastle has managed to introduce varroa. 
We are oh so clever!

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## ForeverYoung

> "Fleet managers are very rational people that look at the total cost of ownership of fleet cars," she said. "They say EVs are not cost competitive."

  Electric vehicles 'could be as cheap as combustion-engine cars' with these tax breaks - ABC News

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## John2b

> Electric vehicles 'could be as cheap as combustion-engine cars' with these tax breaks - ABC News

  The retail cost differences between BEV and ICE reflect the lack of economy of scale, the forces of supply and demand, and the fact that the currently available BEV models are all high spec or luxury vehicles in their respective segments; they do not show that a BEV costs more to produce. At the factory level it is already cheaper to build a passenger car with an electric motor/battery, than the same car with an ICE/gearbox/fuel tank. When BEV volumes climb retail prices will plummet to where they naturally should be, which is below the prices of equivalent specified ICE vehicles.

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## Marc

Toyota's hydrogen car https://youtu.be/0_6N1hYZiAM

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## phild01

Yep, hydrogen fuel cell makes more sense than a big battery lump. But the challenge is efficient and economical hydrogen production.

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## John2b

According to the International Energy Agency "clean hydrogen is currently enjoying unprecedented political and business momentum, with the number of policies and projects around the world expanding rapidly" or in other words hydrogen is being heavily subsidised by guvmints. Of course the hydrogen technology under development is not for ICE vehicles but electric vehicles. I have it on good authority that the first big deliverer of hydrogen energy for transportation will be the tooth fairy.

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## Marc

The tooth fairy

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## John2b

> The tooth fairy

   Thanks Marc, though I suspect you have no idea how profound your post is.

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## METRIX

> Thanks Marc, though I suspect you have no idea how profound your post is.

  The 74 looks like a fantastic vehicle, production vehicle is earmarked to look very similar, going by the inique5 and the new 6 look almost like the concept vehicles.

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## Moondog55

https://cars.mclaren.com/au-en/artura
No more needs to be said; all I need to do is win the lottery a few times

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## Redfin

This appeared on a 4x4 forum I'm a member of, interesting if true. 
I recently did some work for the body corporate at the Dock 5 Apartment Building in Docklands in Melbourne to see if we could install a small number of electric charging points for owners to charge their electric vehicles.  
We had our first three applications and we discovered:
1.      The  building has no non-allocated parking spaces ie public ones. This is typical of most apartment buildings so we cannot provide shared outlets.
2.      The power supply in the building was designed for the loads in the building with virtually no spare capacity. Only 5 or 6 chargers could be installed in total in a building with 188 apartments!!
3.      How do you allocate them as they would add value to any apartment owning one. The @@@@-fight started on day one with about 20 applications received 1st day and with many more following.
4.      The car park sub-boards cannot carry the extra loads of even one charger and would have to be upgraded on any floors with a charger as would the supply mains to each sub- board.
5.      The main switch board would then have to be upgraded to add the heavier circuit breakers for the sub mains upgrade and furthermore:
6.      When Docklands was designed a limit was put on the number of apartments in each precinct and the mains and transformers in the streets designed accordingly.
This means there is no capacity in the Docklands street grid for any significant quantity of car chargers in any building in the area.
7.      It gets better. The whole CBD (Hoddle Grid, Docklands) and Southbank is fed by two sub stations. One in Port Melbourne and one in West Melbourne.
This was done to have two alternate feeds in case one failed or was down for maintenance. Because of the growth in the city /Docklands and Southbank now neither one is capable of supplying the full requirement of Melbourne zone at peak usage in mid- summer if the other is out of action. The Port Melbourne 66,000 volt feeder runs on 50 or 60 year old wooden power poles above ground along Dorcas Street South Melbourne. One is pole is located 40 cm from the corner Kerb at the incredibly busy Ferrars /St Dorcas St Intersection and is very vulnerable to being wiped out by a wayward vehicle.
The infrastructure expenditure required would dwarf the NBN cost & that’s not including the new power stations required!
These advocates of electric vehicles by 2040 are completely bonkers! It takes 5-8 years to design and build a large coal fired power station like Loy Yang and even longer for a Nuclear one (That’s after you get the political will, permits and legislative changes needed). Wind and solar just can’t produce enough. Tidal power might but that’s further away than nuclear.
MOST AUSTRALIANS DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS YET……………..!
It's just a Greenie’s dream for the foreseeable future, other than in small wealthy countries.
The grid simply cannot support it in most places in Australia!
An agenda driven by stupid Greenies and supported by stupider Politicians.

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## Moondog55

I can see you prejudice showing Redfin. All it takes is to use all that vacant roof space in the country to install solar panels and lots of battery banks where they are needed. Even old fashioned lead-acid banks will work in the short term until we get the country converted to hydrogen and alternative stored energy banks.
Why not nuclear power stations? Given enough incentive we could even do the smart thing and de-privatise the energy sector entirely

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## Redfin

I agree mate, I've been an advocate of Nuclear power all along.We have a never ending resource right here in Aust.
BTW I have a solar array and battery here and generate about 17kwh winter and 30kwh summer [we use 7/10kwh on a big day]
I can see EV's in the metrolpolitan area and surrounds, but nothing available now would suit my travels. 
That may change.

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## Uncle Bob

> Given enough incentive we could even do the smart thing and de-privatise the energy sector entirely

  Personally, I think the country's energy requirements need to be nationalized. Privatization hasn't worked and is sending the country broke (well except the CEO's and the rest of the hanger-ons).

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## droog

> This appeared on a 4x4 forum I'm a member of, interesting if true. 
> I recently did some work for the body corporate at the Dock 5 Apartment Building in Docklands in Melbourne to see if we could …..

  https://www.renovateforum.com/f188/e...ml#post1138267

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## Bart1080

> Personally, I think the country's energy requirements need to be nationalized. Privatization hasn't worked and is sending the country broke (well except the CEO's and the rest of the hanger-ons).

  
....dont get me started on that!!!!   :Smilie:   I work in the industry and although I've had some great opportunities over the last 40 years, I shake my head at the short term thinking in getting states out of debt by selling good public assets without fixing the root cause of debt.  A good portion of those profits could be benefiting generations as public assets and yet 25 years after its all been sold off (electricity, gas rail) we have 5 times the amount of debt from incompetent governments of all flavors and they are now looking at what else they can sell without fixing the root cause of the debt problem (gov spending).   
Privatization has worked from an efficiency perspective as the state business's at the time were so inefficient and had way too many staff...But its also created inefficiencies.   
If you look only at a state level, we have effectively similar structures and positions across many private companies with 3 separated layers that under the ringfencing rules cannot have anything to do with each other (generation, distribution and retail)  but as a result we now have duplication many times over that ultimatly must be all be paying for though our bills as each needs to be profitable or they will become insolvent.

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## r3nov8or

> The whole CBD (Hoddle Grid, Docklands) and Southbank is fed by two sub stations. One in Port Melbourne and one in West Melbourne.

  This is out of date, as more have been added in the past few years to support the new metro rail tunnels and increased CBD apartment living. You'd hope they were also sized with EVs in mind, given the recency...

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## Marc

*Electric cars are a SCAM (why "Zero Emission" is a dirty lie)*https://youtu.be/TUx8yIlKVpU

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## John2b

Being an owner of a BEV with >80,000km on the clock, less than $40 spent on 'fuel' in the past 4½ years, and yet to visit a garage for a 'service' (except for air for the tires) posts like the above put a smile on my face. Fortunately for the shareholders of YouTube, gullibility knows no bounds. 
Just as battery tools won't do everything, nor will BEVs, yet I would not give up my BEV anymore than I would give up my cordless drill. I have another vehicle to do the things the BEV does not, though it's driven only around 3,000 km a year nowadays. 
Sure, BEVs use resources to manufacture, but so do ICE vehicles - doh! Every BEV sold displaces an ICE vehicle, so whatever resources are used to make a BEV, a fair comparison needs to account for the resources that would have been used to make the ICE it replaces. The material cost and resources used to make an electric drivetrain are significantly less than to make an equivalent internal combustion engine and gearbox. There are hundreds less parts for a start, _and_ the battery components and copper cabling are both recyclable and recycled materials in high demand, just as catalytic converters from ICEs are. 
BEV cars are so vastly much more energy efficient than ICE vehicles that, even if the electricity to power them comes from coal, there is substantial reduction in energy expended per kilometre traveled. I know that for a fact from when I have used a Honda 5kVA petrol generator to charge the car - 6lts of petrol gives 150km of range or 25km per litre. Put your hand up if you get 25km per litre (4L/100km) in your ICE. 
And as for the often cited provenance of the energy generated for BEV propulsion, what about the energy used to extract, transport and refine fossil energy for ICE powered vehicles? Does it really need to be pointed out that taking into account the inefficiencies of the petroleum industry from the well to the pump makes ICE vehicles compare much worse than our OO-TOOBER's claims? 
And no, electric cars are not going to save the world. Frankly, most people who buy a BEV aren't endeavouring to save the world, just own a better car*. Vehicle manufacturers know only too well that once a BEV owner, always a BEV owner, and that's why the motor industry is changing. It's a pity that Australia has suffered 10 years of political obfuscation and been left behind while the rest of the world moved on. Funny how the previous luddites in guvmint managed to make used car salesmen look respectable compared to guvmint ministers LOL! 
*Quieter, smoother, agile, better handling (lower centre of gravity), more responsive, massive acceleration, never in the wrong gear, more reliable (no massive vibration generator shaking everything to pieces), to name a few things in addition to lower cost of ownership.  https://www.youtube.com/c/CoalMinersDrivingTeslas

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## Marc

> BEV cars are so vastly much more energy efficient than ICE vehicles that, even if the electricity to power them comes from coal, there is substantial reduction in energy expended per kilometre traveled.

  The energy required to move a car say 1.5 ton a certain distance a certain speed is the same. electric or petrol or diesel. The only difference is how the energy is produced.   DETROIT, June 29 (Reuters) - You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3, satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet. But keep going - you'll have to drive another 13,500 miles (21,725 km) before you're doing less harm to the environment than a gas-guzzling saloon. That's the result of a Reuters analysis of data from a model that calculates the lifetime emissions of vehicles, a hotly debated issue that's taking center stage as governments around the world push for greener transport to meet climate targets.  The model was developed by the Argonne National Laboratory in Chicago and includes thousands of parameters from the type metals in an electric vehicle (EV) battery to the amount of aluminium or plastic in a car. Argonne's Greenhouse Gases, Regulated Emissions and Energy Use in Technologies (GREET) model is now being used with other tools to help shape policy at the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the California Air Resources Board, the two main regulators of vehicle emissions in the United States.  Jarod Cory Kelly, principal energy systems analyst at Argonne, said making EVs generates more carbon than combustion engine cars, mainly due to the extraction and processing of minerals in EV batteries and production of the power cells. But estimates as to how big that carbon gap is when a car is first sold and where the "break-even" point comes for EVs during their lifetime can vary widely, depending on the assumptions.  Kelly said the payback period then depends on factors such as the size of the EV's battery, the fuel economy of a gasoline car and how the power used to charge an EV is generated.   NORWAY'S A WINNER Reuters plugged a series of variables into the Argonne model, which had more than 43,000 users as of 2021, to come up with some answers. The Tesla 3 scenario above was for driving in the United States, where 23% of electricity comes from coal-fired plants, with a 54 kilowatt-hour (kWh) battery and a cathode made of nickel, cobalt and aluminum, among other variables. It was up against a gasoline-fueled Toyota Corolla weighing 2,955 pounds with a fuel efficiency of 33 miles per gallon. It was assumed both vehicles would travel 173,151 miles during their lifetimes. But if the same Tesla was being driven in Norway, which generates almost all its electricity from renewable hydropower, the break-even point would come after just 8,400 miles. If the electricity to recharge the EV comes entirely from coal, which generates the majority of the power in countries such as China and Poland, you would have to drive 78,700 miles to reach carbon parity with the Corolla, according to the Reuters analysis of data generated by Argonne's model. The Reuters analysis showed that the production of a mid-sized EV saloon generates 47 grams of carbon dioxide (CO2) per mile during the extraction and production process, or more than 8.1 million grams before it reaches the first customer.  1By comparison, a similar gasoline vehicle generates 32 grams per mile, or more than 5.5 million grams. Michael Wang, senior scientist and director of the Systems Assessment Center at Argonne's Energy Systems division, said EVs then generally emit far less carbon over a 12-year lifespan. Even in the worst case scenario where an EV is charged only from a coal-fired grid, it would generate an extra 4.1 million grams of carbon a year while a comparable gasoline car would produce over 4.6 million grams, the Reuters analysis showed.   'WELL-TO-WHEEL' The EPA told Reuters it uses GREET to help evaluate standards for renewable fuel and vehicle greenhouse gases while the California Air Resources Board uses the model to help assess compliance with the state's low-carbon fuel standard. The EPA said it also used Argonne's GREET to develop an online program that allows U.S. consumers to estimate the emissions from EVs based on the fuels used to generate electric power in their area. The results of the Reuters analysis are similar to those in a life-cycle assessment of electric and combustion-engine vehicles in Europe by research group IHS Markit. Its "well-to-wheel" study showed the typical break-even point in carbon emissions for EVs was about 15,000 to 20,000 miles, depending on the country, according to Vijay Subramanian, IHS Markit's global director of carbon dioxide (CO2) compliance. He said using such an approach showed there were long-term benefits from shifting to electric vehicles. Some are less positive about EVs. University of Liege researcher Damien Ernst said in 2019 that the typical EV would have to travel nearly 700,000 km before it emitted less CO2 than a comparable gasoline vehicle. He later revised his figures down. Now, he estimates the break-even point could be between 67,000 km and 151,000 km. Ernst told Reuters he did not plan to change those findings, which were based on a different set of data and assumptions than in Argonne's model. Some other groups also continue to argue that EVs are not necessarily cleaner or greener than fossil-fueled cars. The American Petroleum Institute, which represents over 600 companies in the oil industry, states on its website: "Multiple studies show that, on a life-cycle basis, different automobile powertrains result in similar greenhouse gas emissions." Argonne National Laboratory is funded by the U.S. Department of Energy and operated by the University of Chicago.   
[Electric cars are a marketing con, that use the smokescreen of pollution to allow more pollution of a different sort, not to mention the ideology pollution that is the worst kind. As a rule of thumb, when politicians get involved to push a product rather than market forces, run, run fast.
Of course there are other consideration omitted in the above article, ie, who counts the massive pollution left behind by ev after their ephemeral life and how to measure the energy required to clean up if that is at all possible?
And of course no one dares to question the bold faced lie of CO2 "pollution", the real fallacy that underpins all this massive fraud.  
When you mention your Nissan leaf, used on a puny island charged on a farm by a windmill or panels, as an example to be followed, I must think of my vintage chainsaw, a 2 stroke Homelite made in the sixties. Should i say it is the best chainsaw in the world? ... or rather that it is just good for me and an obsolete boat anchor for everyone else?]

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## David.Elliott

Whoops... https://www.facebook.com/DailyMailVi...4520058438348/

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## John2b

> The energy required to move a car say 1.5 ton a certain distance a certain speed is the same. electric or petrol or diesel. The only difference is how the energy is produced.

  Unfortunately that is not true. 
An ICE powered vehicle is still burning fuel and consuming energy when not moving (idling), when coasting, when traveling downhill and when braking. 
Contrast that to a BEV which when stationary or coasting is not consuming energy running a motor, and when travelling downhill and braking is actually recovering kinetic and/or potential energy previously used to accelerate the vehicle and storing it back into the battery. 
The vehicle logs from the OBDII diagnostic port in my BEV car indicates that about 25% of the battery energy used for acceleration and driving is recovered and returned to the battery during slowdown, downhill and braking. 
The overall on-road "fuel" energy conversion efficiency of the BEV's electric traction system is around 90%, compared to ~15% for an ICE vehicle. 
A large proportion of the ICE vehicle's poor energy conversion is because the engine is _almost never operating anywhere near the optimum load and rev range for peak energy conversion efficiency_. That's also why charging a BEV from a petrol powered generator, which is designed to operate as close to peak conversion efficiency as possible continuously, yields much greater kilometres per litre than the same amount of fuel directly into an ICE vehicle. It's also the secret behind the extraordinary fuel efficiency of some hybrid drivetrains where the petrol engine runs at optimum revs to charge a traction battery. 
One other thing is certain: my BEV will run on the "free fuel" from our off-grid solar system whilst oil prices continue to skyrocket. The reason I bought an electric car was to use the "spare" electricity that couldn't be exported.

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## Marc

> Unfortunately that is not true.

  The energy *required* is the same. Gravity, mass, friction  and inertia do not change. 
The variables are in the mechanism of conversion.
Electric gets a good rap because most of the equation is out of sight and therefore out of mind.  
Ev will turn out to be the asbestos of the 21 century. Governments turned the other way when asbestos was used, knowing quite well the harm they will do further down the track. Now if you have asbestos in an old house you are a quasi criminal when you dare to want to dispose of it, and pay through the nose. 
Batteries and other toxic components of EV will be just the same.
And the power feeding them will keep on coming mainly from good old coal for another half century or more, unless we have a magical and meaningful breakthrough not related to politics, rainbows, or caffe latte.

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## John2b

The quantity of input energy (i.e. the energy value of the fuel or electricity) used by similar BEV and ICE vehicle per distance travelled is not the same. 
The following data from the SAE (International Society of Automotive Engineers) is measured from real vehicles. It shows the average conversion efficiency of energy input to road output for 2013 ICE vehicles was 17.7%, whilst the conversion efficiency for the Nissan Leaf was 94%. 
That means the Leaf will travel more than _five times as far_ as the average ICE vehicle does with the _same energy expended_.      Drive Cycle Powertrain Efficiencies and Trends Derived from EPA Vehicle Dynamometer Results

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## Marc

My father used to say " none so deaf as those who will not hear"  
The energy required to push two cars along is the same if the cars have identical mass and travel the same road. 
The difference is in the energy conversion. 
In case you missed it, the power train includes engines and transmission. 
Making the case of the transmission on it's own makes as much sense as the albanian defence of scrapping tax cuts because they favour males.

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## John2b

> The energy required to push two cars along is the same if the cars have identical mass and travel the same road...

  _...except for_ the recovery of kinetic and potential energy back into the battery in the case of BEVs but not ICE vehicles, which continue to burn energy when a BEV will be recovering energy, like slowing down, running downhill and braking.   

> The difference is in the energy conversion.

  That is correct: BEVs drive five times the distance for a given quantity of energy input into the battery as a similar ICE vehicle with the _same quantity of energy_ input into the fuel tank.

----------


## Marc

And said apparent efficiency exist only because 90% of the equation is elsewhere, in the mining of coal, the power plant, the millions of km of cables etc. 
The electric vehicle exists at the expense and to the detriment of domestic and industrial power supply, and exist only because we have been brainwashed into believing the CO2 pollution lie. 
Reduce the "carbon footprint" is akin to go to church every sunday or be condemned for eternity.

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## John2b

The rapidly diminishing return on energy investment for petroleum is in fact one of the main drivers behind investment in renewable energy. The easy oil has been tapped, what's left is increasingly difficult and energy intensive to extract.  Fossil fuels offer an increasingly poor energy return on investment  
Right now in Australia there is enough spare capacity in what is currently un-despatchable generation in the national energy market between 10pm and 8am to charge the entire fleet of Australian cars overnight from standard power points if they were _all_ BEVs. Doing so would make the cost of electricity distribution cheaper from 8am to 10pm by improving the usage factor of the grid, and it would also improve the economics of fossil powered water steam turbine generators by reducing the need to throttle back boilers overnight.

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## Marc

Pie in the sky.
Off peak electricity for a pedestrian usage like hot water has gone from 6c to 18c and many retailer don't even offer it and one must accept 28 or 30c
Do you think that electric car charging will get special rate? dream on, it will be a source of maximum profits and a political football for those "eligible" for "concessions"

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## John2b

There exists enough spare capacity in the NEM for the entire Australian fleet of passenger cars to be BEVs without extra infrastructure, and that if it happened would improve the utilisation factor of the system, and that lowers the cost per unit of generation. Someone might like to point which part of that statement is wrong.

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## John2b

> Whoops...

  Waiting in Line: An American Pastime

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## Whitey66

> Waiting in Line: An American Pastime

   That line would be 1,000 times longer if they were lining up for a charger, and I wonder which line would be moving the fastest?

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## Forrestmount

> There exists enough spare capacity in the NEM for the entire Australian fleet of passenger cars to be BEVs without extra infrastructure, and that if it happened would improve the utilisation factor of the system, and that lowers the cost per unit of generation. Someone might like to point which part of that statement is wrong.

  I think the part where there is capacity no one plugs in duty park demand times. The graphs you have previously shown has most capacity when most of the population is asleep.   
ro

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## John2b

> I think the part where there is capacity no one plugs in duty park demand times. The graphs you have previously shown has most capacity when most of the population is asleep...

  ... and so are their cars, which could be on slow charge. Ten hours at 10A is enough for nearly 200km of range and all that is needed is a 10A powerpoint for each car. 200km won't always be enough range, or be enough for everyone, but the average car travels just 40km per day in Australia.

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## Forrestmount

You still missed the practical part of this   
Option 1 in a rose coloured world  
Drive home make dinner, have shower, wait tv remember to put the car on charge go to bed.  
Or more likely option 2 
Driver home, plug the car in, cook dinner etc peak power is peaked higher.  
Or option 1a 
Intend to plug in the car before going to bed, forget and catch the bus to work.  
Time to charge is not the issue it is the start time of the charge.   
ro

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## Moondog55

Option 3
Put up solar panels and install battery bank
Plug in when you think of it or alternatively when you get out of the car on arrival home. Of course we wouldn't need private transport if we had a better public system. Also we could go to much smaller "Personal transports" if all we are doing is getting to work and back. Electric 3-wheel motorcycles would be my choice there, commuter style not the sports option. Something similar to the old Messerschmidt bubble cars of the 60s but with modern safety features and true 120kph capacity for the freeways

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## Jon

> That line would be 1,000 times longer if they were lining up for a charger, and I wonder which line would be moving the fastest?

  The thing is that with an electric car you don't need to go to a petrol station to refuel, you can do it at home. 
And yes, not every user will be able to get through a full day without a recharge but most will. 
And furthermore some people have to park on the street overnight so can't recharge in their garage.  Solutions will evolve.  
But none of these negative arguments mean that electric car development and production should be stopped.  The cost of crude oil discovery and mining is rising so anything that reduces the requirement for petrol is actually doing us all a favour and in particular those that need to continue to use an ICE vehicle.

----------


## phild01

> The cost of crude oil discovery and mining is rising so anything that reduces the requirement for petrol is actually doing us all a favour and in particular those that need to continue to use an ICE vehicle.

  You will find a huge new mining requirement for battery cars and Australia is being encouraged to pick up the slack with this.

----------


## Forrestmount

IMO 
The biggest positive for electric cars is the removal of dependence on oil producing countries. I never see this stared anywhere but I suspect this is a big part of why the government’s are pursuing this technology.  
I am not over all the details but transport produce around 17% of the carbon and power stations around 30% so it really feels like the focus of moving the carbon from transport to add to the power stations is a bit misplaced.   https://www.csiro.au/en/research/env...s-of-ghg-gases  
Pro

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## John2b

> Time to charge is not the issue it is the start time of the charge...

   ...which is why BEVs have programable charging. We've had off peak water heaters for at least 6 decades - it really isn't difficult!

----------


## Bros

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avi9iBC8opU

----------


## phild01

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avi9iBC8opU

  The Nio youtube after that one was interesting. And eyeing off us now https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...h-plan-133540/

----------


## Bros

> The Nio youtube after that one was interesting.

  I can't come to terms buying a Chinese made car while other cars are available.

----------


## phild01

> I can't come to terms buying a Chinese made car while other cars are available.

  It is more the concept rather than the origin of the car... have been aware of the idea, just didn't know it has been adopted.

----------


## r3nov8or

> Intend to plug in the car before going to bed, forget and catch the bus to work.

  If you habitually remember to charge your phone, I reckon that'll be a cue to remember the car too

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## Forrestmount

That’s why I made the comment about forgetting  
My wife always has a flat phone, her fuel tank is often empty as well but the fuel goes in quicker    Seo

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## John2b

> I can't come to terms buying a Chinese made car while other cars are available.

   So what about your Chinese underpants, shirts, trousers, socks and shoes, your Chinese TV, Chinese air conditioner, Chinese toaster and kettle, Chinese Android phone or iPhone? Most Japanese (and many US, European and Korean) companies moved manufacturing offshore to China decades ago. And of course, China makes the bulk of prescription drugs, vaccines, vitamins, and dietary supplements sold in Australia. Tesla, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Volkswagen, Ford, Honda, Renault, Volvo et al make vehicles in China for world markets - surely not because they are inferior.

----------


## Bros

> So what about your Chinese underpants, shirts, trousers, socks and shoes, your Chinese TV, Chinese air conditioner, Chinese toaster and kettle, Chinese Android phone or iPhone? Most Japanese (and many US, European and Korean) companies moved manufacturing offshore to China decades ago. And of course, China makes the bulk of prescription drugs, vaccines, vitamins, and dietary supplements sold in Australia. Tesla, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Volkswagen, Ford, Honda, Renault, Volvo et al make vehicles in China for world markets - surely not because they are inferior.

  Are you blind!

----------


## ForeverYoung

> So what about your Chinese underpants, shirts, trousers, socks and shoes, your Chinese TV, Chinese air conditioner, Chinese toaster and kettle, Chinese Android phone or iPhone? Most Japanese (and many US, European and Korean) companies moved manufacturing offshore to China decades ago. And of course, China makes the bulk of prescription drugs, vaccines, vitamins, and dietary supplements sold in Australia. Tesla, BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Volkswagen, Ford, Honda, Renault, Volvo et al make vehicles in China for world markets - *surely not because they are inferior*.

  They did it because of the cheap labour there.
And we all got an inferior product - inc the underpants. 
Worried about pollution? Energy consumption?
Get products made to a higher standard so they last longer.
Less landfill, less production pollution etc etc
No, we can't have that, everyone needs a new phone every 2 years.
The whole global economic model is built on consumerism.
Create a problem to suit the solution you already have rolling off the production line.
As Marc says - it is all a scam (did I just say that??)  :Smilie: 
The cynic in me suspects the EV thingy is just the same. Thee are just enough good things about EVs to make it plausible, but not until the mining companies have wrung every profit dollar they can out of the fossils.

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## John2b

> Are you blind!

   No

----------


## cyclic

https://mail-attachment.googleuserco...346rRz7Y0MZAIQ  https://mail-attachment.googleuserco...346rRz7Y0MZAIQ

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## Marc

Why?
Why? 
if you are after innovation, try tiktok, they have the innovation of recording your keystrokes.
Innovation is oh so woke!   *TikTok's in-app browser can monitor your keystrokes ... - ABC*  https://www.abc.net.au › news › tiktok-in-app-browser-ca...

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## Marc

I like this guy https://youtu.be/YdPN56qke0Y

----------


## Bros

> I like this guy https://youtu.be/YdPN56qke0Y

  Is he Italian?

----------


## Whitey66

> Is he Italian?

  Tie his hands together and he can't speak  :2thumbsup:

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## Marc

You can not buy an electric ute in Australia? Really? ... yep.  https://youtu.be/qIlpHWo5uZo?t=258 
Buy a merc instead  :2thumbsup:   https://youtu.be/fLC3lryWrjQ

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## John2b

Vehicle sales surge as Aussies go electric https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...ic/ar-AA11sQOz   Toyota was the market leading company last month selling 20,616 vehicles ahead of Mazda on 8824, Kia (6780), Hyundai (6643) and Mitsubishi (6380). The Toyota Hi-Lux was the top-selling vehicle with 6214 ahead of the Ford Ranger with 4497, Toyota's RAV4 with 2482 and _Tesla's Model 3 on 2380_.

----------


## Whitey66

> Vehicle sales surge as Aussies go electric https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...ic/ar-AA11sQOz   Toyota was the market leading company last month selling 20,616 vehicles ahead of Mazda on 8824, Kia (6780), Hyundai (6643) and Mitsubishi (6380). The Toyota Hi-Lux was the top-selling vehicle with 6214 ahead of the Ford Ranger with 4497, Toyota's RAV4 with 2482 and _Tesla's Model 3 on 2380_.

   Knee jerk reaction to fuel prices perhaps??

----------


## John2b

> Knee jerk reaction to fuel prices perhaps??

  Because of Tesla's huge backlog in deliveries the vehicles delivered in August were mostly ordered in January, well before the current petrol price hikes.

----------


## Whitey66

> Because of Tesla's huge backlog in deliveries the vehicles delivered in August were mostly ordered in January, well before the current petrol price hikes.

   That makes even more sense then, the amount of sales in August was just them finally catching up with orders. Why didn't you also quote May, June and July's sales? They were 12, 172 and a measly 4 for July.

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## John2b

That begs the question just how many more cars Tesla would sell if they could actually supply them in a timely manner? Surely at least some people won't wait that long and either don't order, or cancel their order because of the wait.

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## Marc

> Vehicle sales surge as Aussies go electric https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/austr...ic/ar-AA11sQOz Toyota was the market leading company last month selling 20,616 vehicles ahead of Mazda on 8824, Kia (6780), Hyundai (6643) and Mitsubishi (6380). The Toyota Hi-Lux was the top-selling vehicle with 6214 ahead of the Ford Ranger with 4497, Toyota's RAV4 with 2482 and _Tesla's Model 3 on 2380_.

  typical fake news
how many toyota hilux and ford ranger electric sold in australia? answer zero.

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## Whitey66

> That begs the question just how many more cars Tesla would sell if they could actually supply them in a timely manner? Surely at least some people won't wait that long and either don't order, or cancel their order because of the wait.

   There are a lot more people waiting even longer for diesel engine Ford Rangers, Toyota Hiluxs, Isuzu Dmaxs etc. etc.. than there are waiting on Teslas. The wait times for these vehicles are up around 12 months, not the 7 months you quoted. Come back next month and quote Septembers Tesla sales to bring yourself back down to earth with a thud.

----------


## John2b

I have no vested interest in Tesla or the sales of electric vehicles from any manufacturer so I won't be going up, down, or in fact anywhere with a thud in September or any other month over car sales.

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## Whitey66

> I have no vested interest in Tesla or the sales of electric vehicles from any manufacturer so I won't be going up, down, or in fact anywhere with a thud in September or any other month over car sales.

  Well what was the point of your post at #2008 then??   "If you have vested interest in something, you have a special reason to take interest in it and you are biased and cannot take a neutral stand." Sounds about right to me.

----------


## Marc

> Well what was the point of your post at #2008 then??   "If you have vested interest in something, you have a special reason to take interest in it and you are biased and cannot take a neutral stand." Sounds about right to me.

  EV support, should be redefined as anti petrol or anti diesel cars. 
Just like any other "anti" something, be it caged hens, meat eating, CO2 or oil based paint, all anti-something movements are based on ample use of emotional blackmail. 
There isn't much point in looking for a logical reason behind the fad. The reasons are buried deep in the individual's own personal set of values, acquired early in life without the benefit of conscious choice. 
Just like religions can turn individuals against each other, even when contradicting the same religious principles they try to impose, emotional fads, drive minorities against majorities, with the only logic that states, if you are not with 'me' you are the enemy. 
Objects of consumption are normally subject to the rules of offer and demand. Demand is lubricated by advertising and the help of fascion.
However, when the object to be sold is unmarketable, other forces need to come into play. How do you sell electricity at double the price? Or electric cars ? Invent a tabu, introduce a new variable, a new capital sin. Turn the very gas that makes life possible on the planet into a "pollutant" ... and call anyone that opposes you a denier. 
It is a sad indictment of the human condition.

----------


## John2b

> Well what was the point of your post at #2008 then??

  I made a post to a newsworthy story relevant to this thread about electric cars.

----------


## Marc

Generator charging the battery as you drive. Perpetual charge! who is laughing now he?

----------


## ajm

> EV support, should be redefined as anti petrol or anti diesel cars. 
> Just like any other "anti" something, be it caged hens, meat eating, CO2 or oil based paint, all anti-something movements are based on ample use of emotional blackmail. 
> There isn't much point in looking for a logical reason behind the fad. The reasons are buried deep in the individual's own personal set of values, acquired early in life without the benefit of conscious choice. 
> Just like religions can turn individuals against each other, even when contradicting the same religious principles they try to impose, emotional fads, drive minorities against majorities, with the only logic that states, if you are not with 'me' you are the enemy. 
> Objects of consumption are normally subject to the rules of offer and demand. Demand is lubricated by advertising and the help of fascion.
> However, when the object to be sold is unmarketable, other forces need to come into play. How do you sell electricity at double the price? Or electric cars ? Invent a tabu, introduce a new variable, a new capital sin. Turn the very gas that makes life possible on the planet into a "pollutant" ... and call anyone that opposes you a denier. 
> It is a sad indictment of the human condition.

  Different opinions, or in this case, different products, don't have to be "anti" anything. They are merely an alternative. The "anti" part is more of an emotive response that serves to divide those involved with the old "us" vs "them" debate.  
That said, I pity you fools waiting for your electric or ice vehicles. I am waiting on delivery  of my personalised temporal relocation. Already put the deposit down and assured delivery will be soon.
lk

----------


## Marc

Temporal or frontal?

----------


## Marc

The delights of the magic electric 4wd towing.
Who needs diesel? let's just ban them!! https://youtu.be/3nS0Fdayj8Y

----------


## Whitey66

Looks like I'll have to eat my words - https://www.drive.com.au/news/vfacts...new-car-sales/
I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.
This makes China the third biggest supplier of new cars to Australia last month!!

----------


## Marc

A billion flies can't be wrong!

----------


## John2b

Fortescue Metals are developing the "infinity train" the world’s first regeneratively charged battery electric iron ore train, which uses gravitational energy to recharge its battery without any additional charging requirements on the mainline for the return trip. 
Fortescue already have eDumpers on trial, 240-tonne battery electric dump trucks that use regenerative braking to charge the battery. In some circumstances when the mine is elevated, descending loaded dumpers can generate more electrical energy than required for the return ascent empty.  Fortescue battery-electric train next stop: Infinity and beyond

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## Bros

> . In some circumstances when the mine is elevated, descending loaded dumpers can generate more electrical energy than required for the return ascent empty.

   Perpetual motion, I want one.

----------


## METRIX

> Generator charging the battery as you drive. Perpetual charge! who is laughing now he?

  This doesn't work, it's been proven, the energy required to turn the generator is more than the generator can give back.
This is why no manufacturer of electric vehicles has implemented this type of system. 
If there was a manufacturer that could make this work, they would be a on a goldmine overnight.

----------


## METRIX

> Looks like I'll have to eat my words - https://www.drive.com.au/news/vfacts...new-car-sales/
> I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.
> This makes China the third biggest supplier of new cars to Australia last month!!

  There is a Tesla outlet where we have a workshop, going by the amount of Tesla's I have seen in there lately (literally hundreds of them every week), I can see they will need a new premises soon

----------


## Marc

> This doesn't work, it's been proven, the energy required to turn the generator is more than the generator can give back.
> This is why no manufacturer of electric vehicles has implemented this type of system. 
> If there was a manufacturer that could make this work, they would be a on a goldmine overnight.

  Yes Metrix, it is intended as sarcasm.
I never thought someone would consider it plausible.  
Then again ... I never thought reasonable adults would consider an electric car as a plausible alternative, further than a gimmick to show of at a Newtown cafe.
But I am clearly wrong. If normal adults swallow the bold faced lie that CO2 is "pollution" and that we must collectively "de carbonise", they will buy electric cars at triple the price with a pathetic performance useful only to grandma to go shopping in the same suburb. 
The allure of "cheap" fuel, disregarding it is cheap for now at the expense of the household electricity and only for an ephemeral period ... must be powerful. 
Humanity swallowed the multiple religious fables and scaremongering fabrications for centuries. This is just one more.
Of course don't utter the fact that producing electric cars and it's electricity, makes way more CO2 than a good old V8. Don't let the truth get in the way of a nice feel good story. 
One day this will be a slap back joke. 
A very expensive joke.  
Quote: _I am not rude ... I just have the balls to say what everyone else is thinking._

----------


## John2b

> This doesn't work, it's been proven, the energy required to turn the generator is more than the generator can give back. This is why no manufacturer of electric vehicles has implemented this type of system.

  Well actually... 
Formula One cars developed a hybrid electrical motor/generator driven by the rear wheels called the MGU-K (Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic) to regenerate electrical energy under braking. When the brake system is not engaged, the motor/generator simply free spins with minimal resistance because it is not 'loaded'. The energy recovered during braking is stored in a battery and then used to boost acceleration and/or reduce fuel consumption. This process is repeated several times on each lap as the car brakes and accelerates again. Hybrid electric passenger vehicles can use the same principle, sometimes called parallel drive e.g. Toyota Prius (excluding plugin hybrid versions).

----------


## John2b

> Perpetual motion, I want one.

   It's not perpetual motion, it works by energy recovered by lowering mass (the load) under gravity - hydro based electricity generation uses the same energy conversion principle. But as the vehicle moves down the slope loaded and back up unloaded, more mass is going down than up.

----------


## METRIX

> Well actually... 
> Formula One cars developed a hybrid electrical motor/generator driven by the rear wheels called the MGU-K (Motor Generator Unit – Kinetic) to regenerate electrical energy under braking. When the brake system is not engaged, the motor/generator simply free spins with minimal resistance because it is not 'loaded'. The energy recovered during braking is stored in a battery and then used to boost acceleration and/or reduce fuel consumption. This process is repeated several times on each lap as the car brakes and accelerates again. Hybrid electric passenger vehicles can use the same principle, sometimes called parallel drive e.g. Toyota Prius (excluding plugin hybrid versions).

  I was watching a video on this exact thing, the problem comes when you "load" the generator / magic box it puts more load on the system that it can generate, so it's pointless having it because you are just going to run out of reserve power in the end. 
I would have thought in this day of technological advances, they could have produced some sort of generator that doesn't have much drag on the system, sort of like a passive motor that simply sits in parallel with the main motor and has some super efficient energy generation system. 
Isn't what you are describing, the same as braking regen on every electric car nowadays.

----------


## John2b

In formula one cars, the system only loads the generator when the brake is applied, diverting energy from what would otherwise be heat in the brake discs to electricity to charge a battery. 
BEVs do use the drive wheels to turn the electric motor to generate electricity when going downhill or slowing down. The motor system is virtually frictionless, and under braking the energy conversion is typically 95%+ , so the energy recovery works extremely well losing only a few %. Without the energy recovery system the loss of kinetic or potential energy of the vehicle is 100% as heat in the brake disks.

----------


## METRIX

> Yes Metrix, it is intended as sarcasm.
> I never thought someone would consider it plausible.  
> Then again ... I never thought reasonable adults would consider an electric car as a plausible alternative, further than a gimmick to show of at a Newtown cafe.
> But I am clearly wrong. If normal adults swallow the bold faced lie that CO2 is "pollution" and that we must collectively "de carbonise", they will buy electric cars at triple the price with a pathetic performance useful only to grandma to go shopping in the same suburb. 
> The allure of "cheap" fuel, disregarding it is cheap for now at the expense of the household electricity and only for an ephemeral period ... must be powerful. 
> Humanity swallowed the multiple religious fables and scaremongering fabrications for centuries. This is just one more.
> Of course don't utter the fact that producing electric cars and it's electricity, makes way more CO2 than a good old V8. Don't let the truth get in the way of a nice feel good story. 
> One day this will be a slap back joke. 
> A very expensive joke.  
> Quote: _I am not rude ... I just have the balls to say what everyone else is thinking._

  Why do you think it's unreasonable to consider an electric car as an alternative ?
It's been proven hundreds of thousands of times by owners that they are a plausible alternative. 
If they were not plausible, they wouldn't sell them. 
If it's not for you doesn't mean it's not a viable option for others, just because others like the idea of having an electric car doesn't make it right or wrong, that's not your place to make that decision for them.
If you think it's all a scam and wrong, doesn't actually mean it is.  
Where do you get the "pathetic" performance idea from, are you basing this on 0-100, driving range, towing range, why do you think only grandma would find it suitable.
I don't know why you obsess over the electric car debate, everyone knows you hate them, why can't you just leave it at that and move on. 
It's not for you that's ok, why can't you let others talk about it without all the hatred towards the technology, or continuously trying to prove them wrong. 
I like ICE cars and electric cars, I understand they both have advantages and disadvantages and am happy to leave it at that.
I don't actually care about the CO2 side of the debate, there are far worse things that are generating massive amounts of CO2 for people to worry about if that's what they need to worry about. 
The car industry is evolving onto the next technology, like it did from horse and cart. 
Just like the tool industry went from corded to cordless tools, it evolved, you can't tell my you would prefer a corded tool over a cordless for every tool you have ?, some yes I prefer corded some I prefer cordless.

----------


## Marc

It's unreasonable and it is also stupid, for a very simple and obvious reason.
The "renewables" industry including electric cars, is based on a false hypothesis. This is : "human produced CO2 will create a catastrophic heating of the planet and make it uninhabitable." 
This fake news campaign  started in 1972, a long time ago, and despite all prediction being unsubstantiated and wrong, the remedies to avoid this catastrophe that is not happening are sold in rows, making the cost of living that much higher and the morons pedalling them, that much richer.    

> In 1972, the world was also rocked by the first global environmental scare, the so-called “Limits to Growth” report. The authors predicted with great confidence that most natural resources would run out within a few decades while pollution would overpower humanity. At the time, Time magazine described the future as a desolate world with few gaunt survivors tilling freeway center strips, hoping to raise a subsistence crop. Life magazine expected “urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution” by the mid-1980s.

  https://nypost.com/2021/11/30/the-co...caremongering/ 
If you think about how much of what you buy today has been changed and made dearer to adapt to this political lie that no one dares to denounce as false, it is enough to curl your toenails.  
In the case of electric cars, the fallacy is particularly irritating, because on one side, adopting electric cars in great numbers will cripple our electricity production even more, at a time when the morons in charge are shutting down coal fired power stations. 
But the idiocy does not stop there ... to manufacture electric cars including all the extra mining required for batteries and additional cables for chargers, the CO2 production created is way higher than what an ordinary petrol car would. So the advantages in CO2 emissions is false, does not exist. 
Electric cars can be fun, may look good, and anyone in a free society should be free to choose and buy whatever floats his boat. The problem is when the rich conspire with the authorities, or mislead them with false data or bribes, into forcing the consumer towards one particular technology especially when it is not conductive to the alleged advantage that it is also not required at all. 
Electric cars should remain a curiosity, expensive and impractical until we find a better battery and a cheaper way to produce the massive amount of electricity they require 
So see my dear Metrix, I despise autocracy, especially when like in this case the dictators are in the background pulling strings and making green cretins sing from a chorus book that purports well known falsehood, turning reality on its head.     

> Moreover, panic is a terrible policy-adviser. Activist politicians in the rich world are tinkering around the edges of addressing climate change, showering subsidies over expensive vanity projects such as electric cars, solar and wind, while the UN finds that it can’t identify an actual impact on emissions from the last decade of climate promulgations. Despite their grandiose statements of saving the world, 78 percent of rich countries’ energy still comes from fossil fuels. And as the Glasgow climate summit showed (for the 26th time), developing nations — whose emissions over the rest of this century matter most — cannot afford to similarly spend trillions on ineffective climate policies as they help their populations escape poverty.Fifty years of panic clearly haven’t brought us anywhere near solving climate change. We need a smarter approach: one that stops scaring everyone and focuses on realistic solutions such as adaptation and innovation. Adaptation won’t make the entire cost of climate change vanish, but it will reduce it dramatically. And by funding the innovation needed to eventually make clean energy cheaper than fossil fuels, we can allow everyone — including developing countries — to sustainably go green.

  And I personally go further than the above article. I say ... what is "Climate change"? And the answer is also simple, it is a misnomer for the global warming that is refusing to make an appearance after 50 years. 
It is time to grow up and give the globalist the finger.

----------


## phild01

Best reason to go electric...no more reliance on Middle East oil (OPEC), yay!

----------


## John2b

False hypothesis?? Were the people wrong who predicted forests would die, but didn't; children would grow up with learning difficulties but haven't; and the world population would be exposed to excess melanomas but hasn't?  
Not at all! 
Governments acted on warnings so acid rain is no longer killing forests because sulphur has been taken out of diesel and removed from coal stacks, children in cities no longer suffer elevated lead blood levels because lead has been taken out of petrol and paint, and the ozone hole is repairing because ozone depleting chemicals have been taken out of the gases used in heat pumps, propellants and foaming agents. 
I haven't forgotten the furore that all these laws caused at the time, along with the introduction of seat belts in cars and more recently a new vaccine.

----------


## METRIX

> Electric cars should remain a curiosity, expensive and impractical until we find a better battery and a cheaper way to produce the massive amount of electricity they require  
> .

  If something is to remain a curiosity in the Marc world, who will pay to find this better battery you talk about, before we are allowed to develop a vehicle to use this magical Marc battery in ?
Have you been living under a rock, do you think battery technology is not currently under development. 
Battery technology is moving at a rapid rate, energy density of Lithium-ion batteries has gone from 55 Wh/l in 2008 to over 450 Wh/l in 2020, with latest iteration in Tesla Model 3 leading the way at 730 Wh/l.
There are heaps of companies making great advances in battery technology, these cells are being used in many applications, such as cars, home batteries, off-grid storage, cordless tools, and thousands of other applications. 
amprius has just released their latest cell, a lithium-ion with Silicon anodes, capacity is 1150 Wh/l, that's 73% more energy than the class leading Tesla 3 cells, with 37% less volume, not a lab battery but a shipping product 
That's a 20 times more energy dense battery in 14 years, what advancements has the ICE made in the last 14 years ?, definitely not 20 times more power or 20 times more efficient. 
Energy production is also advancing, but it's not something you can simply implement overnight. 
Like any technology, someone has to pay for the advancements, if it wasn't for the uptake of electric vehicles, none of the advancements in battery technology would have occurred because there was no market for it.
Who is going to spend billions to develop something their is no market for, with the introduction of higher energy batteries new markets open up that didn't exist because the technology wasn't there. 
We all benefit in the end from this technology as it filters down to everyday items such as cordless tool batteries, phone batteries etc etc.
Have a search around and you will find the advancements that are being made on a weekly basis in energy production and batteries. 
Your conspiracy theories and constant negativity about this subject are like a broken record, why can't you let people discuss their interest and curiosity in this subject without having to put them down or quote long conspiracy articles trying to disprove them.

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## John2b

> This fake news campaign started in 1972

  The following article was widely published in. newspapers around Australia and overseas 60 years before that in 1912!  COAL CONSUMPTION AFFECTING CLIMATE 
The furnaces of the world are now
burning about 2,000,000,000 tons of
coal a year. When this is burned,
uniting with oxygen, it adds about
7,000,000,000 tons of carbon dioxide
to the atmosphere yearly. This tends
to make the air a more effective blan-
ket for the earth and to raise its
temperature. The effect may be con-
siderable in a few centuries.

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## Marc

> False hypothesis?? Were the people wrong who predicted forests would die, but didn't; children would grow up with learning difficulties but haven't; and the world population would be exposed to excess melanomas but hasn't?  
> Not at all! 
> Governments acted on warnings so acid rain is no longer killing forests because sulphur has been taken out of diesel and removed from coal stacks, children in cities no longer suffer elevated lead blood levels because lead has been taken out of petrol and paint, and the ozone hole is repairing because ozone depleting chemicals have been taken out of the gases used in heat pumps, propellants and foaming agents. 
> I haven't forgotten the furore that all these laws caused at the time, along with the introduction of seat belts in cars and more recently a new vaccine.

  Back to the story of energy in human history, cars and fuels, have a listen to an honest talk on the topic with some very interesting data not loaded with emotions or politics.   

> https://youtu.be/_YiM7Gf_snQ

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## John2b

At 13.43 the presenter say he hopes we are reading the bible. 'Nuff said.

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## Whitey66

> At 13.43 the presenter say he hopes we are reading the bible. 'Nuff said.

  Yeah, who needs Jesus when we have "Electric Jesus" ?  :2thumbsup:

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## cyclic

From Toyota  https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota...edium=Referral

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## John2b

It's sad that a company executive feels the need to do a dummy spit to prove a point. The reality is Toyota got caught with their pants down not having the BEV vehicles for sale that people want to buy. Toyota is now playing catch-up by contracting Subaru, Daihatsu, Suzuki and even Chinese company BYD to make BEVs for the Toyota stable, whilst at the same time winding back production volumes of petrol cars. 
None of this is a consequence of autocratic control over global vehicle markets, as if that were even a possibility! Nor does anyone with any credibility says that BEVs are the be all and end all of all propulsion systems, though lots of motormouths misrepresent the BEV industry. The market will chose the best tool for the job in hand, based on price, availability and practicality. 
To have a truely unfettered market, the petroleum industry will have to cope without $trillions of subsidies in kind it benefits from annually. But even without a flat market, BEVs are so much better than their ICE equivalents that ICEs have had their day, period. But conservative Australia is at the bottom of the class as per usual. 
The first Holden was powered by a 2.2lt engine that produced just 45kW and took ~30 seconds to accelerate the car to ~100kph. A base model Tesla 3 takes about 3.4 seconds for the same feat even if driven by mum. Wait for a few $trillion to be invested BEV development to match historical ICE development and see what happens. 
ICE vehicles have had over 100 years of continuous development. Yet a handful of BEVs have exceeded ICE vehicles in most performance parameters with just a few years of development. Battery chemistries shelved in the 1960s are waiting to usurp the lithium ones in use now with much higher energy densities, lower weights, faster charging and longer life, just a logical result of market driven development.

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## Moondog55

I'm personally not in the market for a new EV, no funds; but I just saw a big electric trike that looked like a Harley and I think I'm in lust and I want want want one. Usually you can hear a Harley a mile away; this one was past me before I heard it and that was only because they had the radio blasting away.

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## Bros

> I'm personally not in the market for a new EV, no funds; but I just saw a big electric trike that looked like a Harley and I think I'm in lust and I want want want one. Usually you can hear a Harley a mile away; this one was past me before I heard it and that was only because they had the radio blasting away.

  If you buy a Harley you also buy the potato, potato, otherwise its not a Harley.

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## Whitey66

> If you buy a Harley you also buy the potato, potato, otherwise its not a Harley.

   Yep, no potato and no oil leaks = Not a Harley.
Maybe they could call them "Hardly - Davidsons"? 
Are you sure it wasn't one of the new HD trikes with the IC engine with standard exhausts Moondog55 ?
Most new Harleys are very quiet now to meet strict noise guidelines. Usually the first thing to go is the standard mufflers, being replaced with Screamin" Eagle exhausts or similar with the dB Killers removed.

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## Moondog55

Well maybe it was, I'm just used to Harleys sounding like unmuffled V-8s.
There are bike magazine rumours that there is an electric Can-Am in the pipeline; I'd take one of those in a flash if I win the lottery

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## John2b

Here's a story about a guy riding an electric Harley Davidson from Perth to Sydney:  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-...irst/101546196

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## John2b

Picked up my sons from school and stopped to get gas, invited them to get out of the car and learn how to do it. Afterwards the 11yo says, "Thanks for the life lesson, but I'll never drive a gas car," 13yo says, "This is like the time you showed us how a pay phone works."  https://twitter.com/AlanaDimario/sta...EvUskaeQNo1MHA

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## ForeverYoung

> Picked up my sons from school and stopped to get gas, invited them to get out of the car and learn how to do it. Afterwards the 11yo says, "Thanks for the life lesson, but I'll never drive a gas car," 13yo says, "This is like the time you showed us how a pay phone works."  https://twitter.com/AlanaDimario/sta...EvUskaeQNo1MHA

  Civilisation is doomed when we lose those basic life skills.

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## cyclic

We will have similar problems in Australia especially in summer holidays on choked roads at the beginning and end of holidays*.*﻿  Something to think about ... Imagine Florida with a hurricane coming toward Miami. The governor orders an evacuation. All cars head north.   They all need to be charged in Jacksonville.     How does that work.? Has anyone thought about this.     If all cars were electric and were caught up in a three-hour traffic jam with dead batteries, then what?     Not  to mention that there's virtually no heating or air conditioning in an  electric vehicle because of high battery consumption.     If you get stuck on the road all night, no battery, no heating, no windshield wipers, no radio, noGPS  (all these drains the batteries), all you can do is try calling 911 to  take women and children to safety. But they cannot come to help you  because all roads are blocked, and they will probably require all police  cars will be electric also. When the roads become unblocked no one can  move! Their batteries are dead.     How  do you charge the thousands of cars in the traffic jam? Same problem  during summer vacation departures with miles of traffic jams. Yes, AAA  is starting to prepare tow trucks to charge electric vehicles. How many  can they charge before returning to home base and recharge the trucks?    There would be virtually no air conditioning in an electric vehicle.    It would drain the batteries quickly. Where is this electricity going to come from?    Today's grid barely handles users' needs.     Can't use nuclear, natural gas is quickly running out.     Oil fired is out of the question, then where?     What will be done with billions of dead batteries, cant bury them in the soil, cant go to landfills.     The cart is way ahead of the horse.     No thought whatsoever to handle any of the problems that batteries can cause.     The press doesn't want to talk or report on any of this.

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## Moondog55

> Civilisation is doomed when we lose those basic life skills.

  I bet you still know how to curry a horse and fix leather tack and harness too.  :Biggrin:   :Cry: 
However in the short term I think a lot of households will have 2 vehicles, one fully electric for work and shopping trips and a hybrid for traveling long distance, in the long term that hybrid may well be hydrogen fueled

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## ForeverYoung

> I bet you still know how to curry a horse and fix leather tack and harness too.

  I probably could actually.
This was my weekend job when I was a kid after a race. https://equigroomer.com/products/5-w...-pet-squeegee/ 
Fixing tack was more my brother's forte.    

> However in the short term I think a lot of households will have 2 vehicles, one fully electric for work and shopping trips and a hybrid for traveling long distance, in the long term that hybrid may well be hydrogen fueled

  Maybe.
Corporates will be loving this. 2 vehicles instead of one.

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## Moondog55

Our household already has two vehicles, with our poor public transport and expensive taxis we need 2 cars; mostly I do shopping and Granpas taxi duties.
Most families in this area have 3 or 4 cars per residence and for the same reasons.
For that sort of use; usually less than 10 klicks a battery golf cart would work

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## John2b

> If all cars were electric and were caught up in a three-hour traffic jam with dead batteries, then what?

  The same as what already happens with ICE cars in the same circumstances.    

> Not  to mention that there's virtually no heating or air conditioning in an  electric vehicle because of high battery consumption.

  Air conditioning in BEVs is efficient sealed reverse cycle (like a split system) and doesn't use much energy. It also heats and cools much faster than A/C in ICE vehicles.    

> If you get stuck on the road all night, no battery, no heating, no windshield wipers, no radio, noGPS  (all these drains the batteries)

  The traction battery is not used to power heating, wipers, radio etc. There is a 12 volt system for that like ICE cars.    

> How  do you charge the thousands of cars in the traffic jam? Same problem  during summer vacation departures with miles of traffic jams.

  How do you refuel thousands of ICE cars in the same circumstances (yes it happens)?    

> There would be virtually no air conditioning in an electric vehicle. It would drain the batteries quickly. Where is this electricity going to come from?

   Incorrect. See above.     

> Today's grid barely handles users' needs.

   Overnight the electricity grid is totally under-utilised and already has enough capacity to charge the entire Australian passenger car fleet with low cost electricity if every vehicle was a BEV. Every car would be 'full' in the morning ready to head north from that Floridan hurricane with no need for anyone to queue anywhere at charging or refuelling stations.     

> What will be done with billions of dead batteries, can’t bury them in the soil, can’t go to landfills.

  They're far too valuable to put into landfill. Batteries contain precious metals that are in demand for recycling. >90% of lead car batteries are already recycled, and so will be lithium car batteries.     

> The cart is way ahead of the horse.

  
Er... the horse bolted more than 100 years ago. It's time for the cart to catch up.    

> No thought whatsoever to handle any of the problems that batteries can cause.

  This comment seems to be conveniently forgetting ICE vehicles cause problems too, like benzine in petrol (now banned) which caused poisoning, lead in petrol (now banned) which caused retarded intellectual development in children, sulphur (now much reduced) which caused acid rain in the '80s, hydrocarbons that caused photochemical smog over cities and coated buildings black (now largely prevented by with emissions control systems), particulates from diesel engine that cause the premature deaths of an estimated 4 million people annually across the globe (thousands in Australia), ICE air condition systems that leak refrigerants through the shaft seal, contributing to ozone depletion and the hole in the ozone layer that prevent life being fried by ultraviolet radiation, just to name a few issues. Even though mostly the environmental problems above have been solved, the damage done by the petroleum industry is pervasive, for example: Deepwater Horizon explosion, Exxon Valdez grounding, Persian Gulf oil disaster, etc    

> The press doesn't want to talk or report on any of this.

  Since when? I read plenty of bad press about BEVs though mostly containing erroneous information, and plenty of links have been posted here in this forum. It's obvious to a BEV user that the authors of erroneous articles don't own BEVs.

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## John2b

> Corporates will be loving this. 2 vehicles instead of one.

  From the 2021 Census the average number of motor vehicles per household is 1.8.

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## r3nov8or

> The same as what already happens with ICE cars in the same circumstances

  My car tells me it uses 0.9 litres per hour at idle. And it has auto stop/start so would last for days in a traffic jam, only running/idling to charge the battery or run the AC. Running the AC it idles at 1.3 l/h 
And yes, of course there are those select idiots who never have enough fuel for the unexpected, but we are talking the odd one or two. Not the whole 'fleet'

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## John2b

> My car tells me it uses 0.9 litres per hour at idle. And it has auto stop/start so would last for days in a traffic jam, only running/idling to charge the battery or run the AC. Running the AC it idles at 1.3 l/h

  A BEV uses the equivalent of ~0.0 litres per hour when not moving whether turned on or off.* The radio, lights etc in use are agnostic about what kind of car they are in, but the sealed AC unit in a BEV is more efficient than a belt driven compressor unit like used in an ICE car. 
Like an ICE car, the BEV's 12 volt battery runs ancillary services. The 12 volt battery is charged from the propulsion battery by an energy efficient DC-DC charger. So when stationary the BEV propulsion battery will supply energy to the 12 volt battery as needed (whether the car is turned on or not), but at an efficiency >90%, unlike a fan belt driven alternator of an ICE which with an idling engine would struggle to convert 10% of the energy in the fuel into electrical energy for the battery. 
A BEV AC uses a ~2kW motor (at maximum output consuming the equivalent of ~0.25 litre of petrol per hour) and produces around 5½ kW of heating or cooling. Depending on the vehicle's size of battery that's at least 12 to 48 hours if the AC was running flat out, and realistically more than double that time (24 to 96 hours) unless the occupants want to be frozen or roasted. 
*A litre of petrol or diesel is equivalent to 9kWh of electrical energy, enough to drive any BEV >60km before taking into account the range extension of regenerative braking, which typically adds another 10-15km or so.

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## r3nov8or

> A BEV uses the equivalent of ~0.0 litres per hour when not moving whether turned on or off.

  Just like my auto stop/start when not moving. Crazy

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## ForeverYoung

> From the 2021 Census the average number of motor vehicles per household is 1.8.

  Ah, statistics - use them for whatever spin you want  :Wink:    

> 91 per cent of households (91.3 per cent) reported having at least one vehicle and more than half (55.1 per cent) reported having two or more vehicles.

  so 55% of households have 2 or more vehicles.
leaving 36% with 1 vehicle?

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## Jon

> so 55% of households have 2 or more vehicles.
> leaving 36% with 1 vehicle?

  5 of us, 5 vehicles. 
And I would happily swap "my" car which is the family work horse, dog carrier, teach the kids to drive, tow the trailer to the tip or pick up bulky stuff car for an electric.
The issue would be as the oldest car it lives on the road so would not be able to be charged.  There would need to be a family agreement that whenever necessary it is allowed into the garage for overnight charging.

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## r3nov8or

Don't worry Jon. I hear all councils will soon install wireless car changing in the streets so you can park and charge where you like, for zero cost. Magic. No need for driveways and garages anymore. Everyone will park on the street. That'll be fine.

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## Whitey66

2 of us, 3 vehicles or 5 if we're counting motorbikes.
Stats can't be true, I don't know anybody that has 1.8 vehicles  :Confused:

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## Moondog55

Is that because a motorbike only counts as a half a car?
We have a young tradie mate who owns a big ute, a small car and a godawlmitey motorcycle, does he own 2.5 vehicles and confuse the stats

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## cyclic

Love the bit about storing the car in a heated garage ha ha ha ha  *Warren Brown: Why taking a road trip in a Tesla revealed the limitations of electric vehicles*  I  knew electric vehicles had questionable range, but in our quest for a  green utopia I had no idea of the seat-of-the-pants hell of driving one  in far-flung NSW, writes an EV-fatigued Warren Brown. *Warren Brown*  September 5, 2022   The Sunday Telegraph  If you ask anyone who knows me there’s nothing I like more than a jolly good road trip. If  you hang around long enough I’m guaranteed to bore anyone within  earshot with tales of my road-going adventures that are so bonkers I  have trouble believing them myself. It’s all about the joy of long-distance motoring – the freedom it gives, the chance for adventure. So  when the opportunity to jump aboard an electric car and head west for  the Riverina turned up last week I just couldn’t say no – after all,  Energy Minister Chris Bowen has made it painfully clear the future for  personal transport in Australia is electric.  Warren  Brown, cartoonist for The Daily Telegraph travelled to Griffith in a  Tesla Model 3 charging in Griffith. Picture: Jonathan Ng    Photographer  Jonathan Ng and I were to head to Griffith last week for the annual  Daily Telegraph Bush Summit. Instead of catching a flight from Sydney we  decided to drive. Jonathan, a car guy like myself, offered to pick me up from Goulburn in his 2019 Tesla and drive us the 390km west. While  I’ve driven electric cars before, I’d never been in one for any  considerable distance, and while I’d experienced an EV’s blistering  performance, like most people I was also aware of their shortcomings  when it came to their range.  Warren Brown, Daily Telegraph cartoonist is an avid lover of road trips.    The  Tesla struck me as the ideal car for a long drive, with its leather  seats and plenty of leg room. The vehicle brimmed with futuristic  features: instead of dashboard instruments there was what was  fundamentally a giant iPad in front of the driver and passenger, which  incorporates an endless variety of nifty features – satellite  monitoring, Netflix, and most importantly a map indicating where  recharging stations are situated. “We’ll  pull up at Gundagai, plug the car in and grab some breakfast,” Jonathan  told me as we re-joined the highway, the thought of which sounded like a  capital idea. The  188km drive from Goulburn to Gundagai was effortless, and before long  we’d arrived at the feet of the Dog on the Tuckerbox, to pull up at a  bank of charging stations at which there is another Tesla and a  Volvo-based Polestar already receiving an intravenous dose of 240 volts.  Turns out Teslas aren’t match fit for road trips.    “We’ll  be here for half an hour or so” Jonathan told me as he plugged in our  Tesla. And in the spirit of throwing healthy eating to the wind we  partook in the first of what would be many roadside gourmand experiences  for the day – two bacon and egg rolls and coffee. In half an hour we returned to the car, where the other EV drivers were now unplugging their life support. Despite  being part of the rarefied 2 per cent of the population who are  electric vehicle owners, it struck me how no one was making any  well-met, collegiate chitchat about their cars. You know – “G’day mate!  How many megahertz are you getting to the gallon?” kind of thing. Instead,  clearly wary of these electrical interlopers, Jonathan told me to keep  an eye on where those guys were heading because it was imperative we got  to a town before them – if there’s only one charger in a town and they  get there first then it’s a half an hour waiting while they charge, then  a half an hour for us. I’m  beginning to get it – for EV drivers out here on the open road it’s now  a lithium-battery Hunger Games – a charge to get charged before the  other guy takes charge. Stuffed  with bacon and egg rolls, we headed off for Wagga Wagga, some 88km  away, where our mission was to quickly find the resident charging  station placed in a car park, and another 45-minute stay to recharge  again. A  vanilla slice and three-quarters of an hour later and we were back on  the road, heading for the only charging station in Narrandera – a lonely  monument to a green Australia plonked in a side street where we hooked  up for yet another electricity fix. A pie from the bakery this time and  we ever-expanding local-pastry-filled Electric Road Warriors were on the  last leg to Griffith, with one eye on the road and the other on the  diminishing battery-level symbol on the screen, arriving in town to hook  the car up for an electro-adrenaline hit yet again. As  someone who’d had no experience with EVs in the bush I was now taken  hold by a new and genuine phenomenon that’s recently arisen with the  advent of electric cars. It’s a paranoia known euphemistically as “range  anxiety” – a rather patronising term suggesting that the fear of being  stranded in the never-never without a spark of electricity and facing  certain death is merely some sort of minor psychosis, like being afraid  of the dark. I  knew electric vehicles had questionable range, but I had no idea of the  seat-of-the-pants logistics of driving one in the Outback. It  was becoming glaringly obvious to me the federal government’s rabid  fervour to fast-track electric vehicles by cracking down and dispensing  with the internal combustion engine seems more than alarming in that  we’re not being given the full picture of what the consequences will be.  Taking a Tesla outback evoked thoughts of MadMax fury road for Warren Brown. Photo:Jasin Boland.    I  discovered there are two issues with electric vehicles that proponents  tend to gloss over: the cars’ batteries don’t like cold weather, and nor  do they like continuous high-speed driving – two rather important and  regularly encountered features when driving in the Outback. Not  only do lithium batteries have reduced efficiency when it’s cold, but  if you put the car’s heater on (so you don’t freeze) you’ll reduce its  charge even quicker – therefore reducing the range. MYEV.com suggests  in order to keep the battery happy you should “park your car in a  heated garage” – something else to load onto an already beleaguered  electricity grid. Unlike  internal combustion engines, electric vehicles are happier in the  “stop-start” situations you’d find in the city than the massive  long-distance hauls you’d typically encounter in the Australian Outback. If  you do run out of charge, the car will give plenty of warning,  resorting to “limp mode” for some time. But when it has eventually  rolled to a complete stop, pray you have charge and range for your  mobile phone, as it’s a tilt tray to the nearest town. Scandinavian  countries such as Norway are perennially wheeled out as the poster  children for EVs. Yet the widest part of Norway is roughly the distance  from Sydney to Dubbo, whereas the widest part of Australia is equivalent  to the distance from London to Moscow. In  a green utopia where we’re all compelled to drive electric cars, who on  Earth would be game enough to visit remote Outback towns in far-flung  NSW? This would conceivably curtail enthusiasm for regional tourism. Three  weeks ago I was at a roadside servo between Wilcannia and Cobar, the  cafe alive with grey nomads and tourists exploring NSW post-Covid. But  not an electric vehicle nor charging station in sight. In  our diesel Toyota Prado we needed to make a 250km detour due to  flooding. How you could do that in an electric car out there I simply  can’t imagine. As  for us, our return journey was the long, anxious process of  charger-hopping in reverse sequence – sitting in the dark at Gundagai at  12.30am while the car took on more volts tended to take the shine off  our grand motoring adventure – and not a vanilla slice in sight.

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## Uncle Bob

^^ All things that EV drivers are aware of. There will be a turning point when there's more chargers that fuel bowsers. Probably about a decade out.

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## phild01

One thing to consider. If everyone drove an EV for long distance travels, a lot of real-estate will be needed for when they are parked up charging. At a guess at least many times more than that of a regular fuel station. With so many cars parked up the charging might be a trickle meaning even more required real-estate. I hope I get to see one day, a practical battery that charges fast and can hold a lot more charge than the current technology gives us.

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## manofaus

Just off the new england highway in Muswellbrook they have built 2 new servos and Scone is building a new one now. Thought it was hard to get funding for fossil burning projects. If I can refuel my car in 4 mins to 100% from empty, I can't imagine an EV doing that ever. I mean a pumping 60kw into a battery in 4 mins..

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## ForeverYoung

Tesla owners forced to wait 90 minutes for charge in Wodonga | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site   

> It takes Tesla owners up to 60 minutes to fully charge their vehicles from a near empty battery. Combined with the limited charging bays, it’s added up to impatience and frustration for those trying to make it home.

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## John2b

You gotta love how people who have never owned or driven a BEV know everything that's wrong with them. Our 2016 Leaf has 92,000k on it mostly on rough dirt roads, yet it's never been to a garage except for air for the tires. I have resorted to running light truck tires because we have had so many punctures. 
Would I drive across Australia in it? Of course not, just like I wouldn't use a battery drill when a Kango hammer is needed. Our once a year outback trek is in the 'other car', a diesel 4WD, but I am not about to give up my battery tools or car just yet.

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## Uncle Bob

> Tesla owners forced to wait 90 minutes for charge in Wodonga | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site

  Sounds like Tesla popularity has grown faster than the super charger network.

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## John2b

Waiting 90 minutes for a charge is reserved for those who have waited 12 months to buy a Tesla in the first place  :Smilie:   https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-...-in-australia/

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## John2b

> Sounds like Tesla popularity has grown faster than the super charger network.

  Tesla sales have outsold Toyotas. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ular-utes.html

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## phild01

> Would I drive across Australia in it? Of course not, just like I wouldn't use a battery drill when a Kango hammer is needed. Our once a year outback trek is in the 'other car', a diesel 4WD, but I am not about to give up my battery tools or car just yet.

  So, we need the additional vehicle for our long-distance trips, not very sensible! 
In reality I can only see swap and go batteries as a feasible option with currently available battery technology.

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## Uncle Bob

> So, we need the additional vehicle for our long-distance trips, not very sensible! 
> In reality I can only see swap and go batteries as a feasible option with currently available battery technology.

   They are making making inroads into fast charging by dumping very high currents in the batteries but this is definitely an issue that needs solving unless you only drive around town. 
Then there's super capacitors that are always 10 years away.

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## Whitey66

> In reality I can only see swap and go batteries as a feasible option with currently available battery technology.

  Why not just have swap and go cars? 🤔

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## cyclic

> Waiting 90 minutes for a charge is reserved for those who have waited 12 months to buy a Tesla in the first place   https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-...-in-australia/

  Wonder how long this line took ???

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## cyclic

> So, we need the additional vehicle for our long-distance trips, not very sensible! 
> In reality I can only see swap and go batteries as a feasible option with currently available battery technology.

  If it is anything like swap and go gas bottles, they are usually wayyy out of date
not to mention the time to swap the battery
I have read 4 hours, and some manufacturers are now incorporating the lithium batteries into the chassis. 
Read a story a while back about a lady in Melb (I think) being quoted $23,000 for a new lithium battery for her 5 year old tesla ( no not covered under warranty it appears) and when she refused, the car was shut down remotely, game over.

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## Whitey66

> You gotta love how people who have never owned or driven a BEV know everything that's wrong with them.

   I find it equally funny how people who do own BEVs don't know everything that's wrong with them.

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## cyclic



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## r3nov8or

https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2023/01/e...australia/amp/ 
EV servicing costs. Not sure why Kia seems so much higher that others, as much as $2800 at year seven

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## Moondog55

Strange when I thought that Hyundai and Kia were the same cars with different shells.

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