# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  Outlet height - opinion or have i done it wrong

## physix

Been told by my plumber that i have "done it wrong" by not adhering to the australian standard of having the shower outlet at 183cm and that i have to rip it out.. this poses some hefty workload.
I intend to have a double shower with a shower rail on each side. The showers will easily fit someone 190cm under them however my outlets are at 120cm.   Is this opinion as i have seen many pictures on the internet like this one which is how i want my shower to look.

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## wonderplumb

The problem here is cross connection. If the shower head has a built in check valve there is no problem. If it doesn't, buy one that does. What you see on the internet is usually for show and doesn't necessarily mean that it's right.

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## Steffen595

there is shower connections on the bathtub outlet, this will be about 600mm high. Haven't seen check valves in them. Cross connection to where?

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## wonderplumb

It's a possible cross connection situation that could promote back syphonage. In short if the shower on the end of that hose or the one on your bath spout were left in the bath water or the shower tray, under ideal conditions it can suck that filthy water out and contaminate the potable water supply. Not cool.

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## ringtail

Can you explain in a bit more detail about cross contamination and back siphoning wonderplumb. What are these ideal conditions ? I always thought that one would have to loose water pressure to create this problem and not just any ordinary loss of pressure but some major wierd science thing going on with the concil mains ???

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## wonderplumb

Say for example you had the shower hose in the bathwater with the tap running, a water main bursts down the hill a bit creating a pressure drop in the main, it could suck the bathwater out and back into the potable water supply.
Now, imagine that instead of your shower head in the water it was a home made bidet with the outlet hanging down in the toilet bowl next door (this goes on all the time by the way), your neighbour has a bad case of gastro and his toilet has backed up, leaving his home made bidet outlet submerged in raw sewage. Then the water main bursts or perhaps has the pressure reduced for maintenance. He has a cross connection that is sucking diarrhoea straight out of the toilet into the water supply, as it travels past your place your washing machine, at the back of your house kicks in sucking all this rubbish through your pipework. Sounds far fetched but it does happen. 
Imagine that your neighbour was an electroplater, or a film developer, or an autopsy room. 
It doesn't have to be a problem with the water main either, this can happen within your own installation. The best way to demonstrate this is to go outside, turn your water off at the main, find your lowest water point (outside hose tap) and turn it on. Then run inside and turn on your shower taps. Depending on how high your shower taps are compared to your hose tap you should hear it sucking through the shower. Give it a go.

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## Steffen595

unless water builds up to 1.80 inside your bathroom there is little chance wather gets sucked through your shower head.
Remember faintly the water meter has a check valve for just that reason. Plus my rain water pump has one too, so rain water does not go into the potable water supply.
I would rather be worried about the outlet, if you share your sewage pipe with your neighbour tere may be troubles. Never yeen a shower head with checkvalve.

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## ringtail

Ok cool, thanks wonderplumb, thats what I sought of thought. What the hell is a home made bidet -  a garden hose and a bucket ? 
So if it happens all the time, how can it be stopped ? Check valves on every fitting in the house ?  
With shower roses sitting in the bathwater I assume you are referring the the "rose on a rope" type obviously. I would have thought it to be illegal to either sell a fitting with a hose that long or mount it so low that it could happen in the first place.I guess this is the op's question. Either way, its another good reason for banning bath tubs and bidets. Bath tubs for just been a horrible waste of water and a all round PITA and bidets for been pretensious french inspired crap for lazy butt holes that cant be bothered to wipe their own butt hole.

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## Ken-67

Would it not solve the problem by fitting a chrome-plated riser against the wall, and fitting an outlwet at the right height? That would be a lot easier that ripping it all out and starting again

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## ringtail

That would work I reckon. Should be some simple solution out there for sure

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## wonderplumb

Most shower hoses these days have a spring loaded check valve in them for this reason.

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## ringtail

All the check valves in the world still wont help if there is crap in the mains though. As soon as the mains come back on line whatever is in there is now in your house. Whats the solution ?

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## Steffen595

still having trouble to imagine how a shower head can suck junk in, be it 1.20 high or 1.80 high. Wouldn't the kitchen tap or vanity tap kick in first, at 1.00 high? Or the bathtub tap at 0.7m high? Need a decent flood but, then your potable water is done for anyway.

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## wonderplumb

> still having trouble to imagine how a shower head can suck junk in, be it 1.20 high or 1.80 high. Wouldn't the kitchen tap or vanity tap kick in first, at 1.00 high? Or the bathtub tap at 0.7m high? Need a decent flood but, then your potable water is done for anyway.

  You have missed the point. The original post showed a shower set out of 1200mm with a 1800mm hose hanging off it. 
Not all water meters have check valves. 
Sewer can be shared through water pipes via a cross connection.
The majority of shower heads that come with a shower hose have check valves.
In saying this, I have never "yeen" a shower head with a check valve either. :Smilie:

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## SlowMick

Wonderplumb, you have seen far too much seriously wrong stuff over the years.  thanks for the explanation of cross connection though - ive been meaning to ask for a while.

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## Steffen595

well then a 900 mm hose will do the trick, plus 200 mm for the head is 100mm above ground. Then your bathroom needs to be flooded by at least 100 mm, the taps open and some negative pressure, at least 0.12 bar, around to suck it up. Good stuff, our houses could be so much better if they would have covered for all those eventualities. Like, say, its not always 20° and paper walls ain't gonna cut it.

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## ringtail

Honestly, who fills a bath with the shower head ? And who is brave enough to admit to owning and using a bidet ? I really cant see it happening but then again it must have happened in order for the regs to be made. Imagine been the guys who sit around and dream up these scenarios to draft regs. Fun fellas.

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## Johning

Does anyone know if the 183 cm shower head outlet height mentioned by the OP refers to height above the shower drain or height above the top of the shower hob?

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## wonderplumb

> Honestly, who fills a bath with the shower head ? And who is brave enough to admit to owning and using a bidet ? I really cant see it happening but then again it must have happened in order for the regs to be made. Imagine been the guys who sit around and dream up these scenarios to draft regs. Fun fellas.

  Easy tiger, the shower scenario was just a possible one. This is a very serious issue my unbelieving friend and it does happen all too often. 
People just don't sit around and dream things like this up to make your life miserable, these measures are put in place to protect yourself and the general public. Just think, every fixture in your house has either an air gap, a break tank, or a loose jumper valve or a combination of these things to prevent cross connections.
Around 18 months ago I done a job changing a broken Duo valve on a hot water heater that was outside. I turned off the water supply, undone the valve, went out to my truck and when I came back there was bloo-loo syphoning out of the cistern, through the pipework and out where the valve had been due to a faulty inlet valve (that were banned but now have picked up their game).
This could have been going on for months, the dishwasher could have sucked it through even. With two young kids and her hubby potentially drinking this, makes it quite serious.

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## Steffen595

WTH? Gunk makes its way out of the toilet into the cistern, did they silicone the lid closed? Plus how can water from the hot water system do that? The only thing I could imagine its bleeding out of my cold water when both cold and warm water taps are open. Something is really wrong here. 
Checked the showerhead I got from o/s, no checkvalve. Plus, over there its quite common that shower hoses are connected to the bath outlet with quite long hoses, so the showerhead is actually submerged in your bathtub. Seems a) they have more faith in their plumbing. or b) Austalian plumbing is really weird. My hot water makes a 15m run to the kitchen sink, but the HWS is just outside the kitchen window. Goes through the laundry, into the roof, back again into the kitchen.
For the 1.80, maybe the plumber was expecting one of these 
he just cannot imagine, there is anything else? So for those one 1.20m would be just for dwarfs

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## ringtail

> Easy tiger, the shower scenario was just a possible one. This is a very serious issue my unbelieving friend and it does happen all too often. 
> People just don't sit around and dream things like this up to make your life miserable, these measures are put in place to protect yourself and the general public. Just think, every fixture in your house has either an air gap, a break tank, or a loose jumper valve or a combination of these things to prevent cross connections.
> Around 18 months ago I done a job changing a broken Duo valve on a hot water heater that was outside. I turned off the water supply, undone the valve, went out to my truck and when I came back there was bloo-loo syphoning out of the cistern, through the pipework and out where the valve had been due to a faulty inlet valve (that were banned but now have picked up their game).
> This could have been going on for months, the dishwasher could have sucked it through even. With two young kids and her hubby potentially drinking this, makes it quite serious.

  Fair go chief, I never said it couldn't happen just that I cant see it happening. With the blue loo thing, wasn't that because the husband was a total numpty and was touching things in the cistern he had no knowledge of ? No amount of check valves is going to save a idiot from themselves. Just like the guy who fills the bath with his shower and the guy who likes to stick a bidet hose up his clacker. I have no doubt that it does happen but looking at the bigger picture its idiots that cause it to happen.

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## wonderplumb

It wasn't the hot water heater mate, it was a faulty cistern inlet valve back syphoning out to where the heater was connected. Had nothing to do with the heater. 
As for the home made bidet, it was a tee cut into the cistern inlet pipe and a small copper tube that was ran up under the toilet seat and into the bowl. There is a photo os it here somewhere.

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## ringtail

Wow, who would go to that much trouble for a bum washer. Glad its your industry wonderplumb. I'm surprised that things like blue loo and anything else that goes in your cistern is legal. Isn't the water in the cistern still potable water ?

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## wonderplumb

> Wow, who would go to that much trouble for a bum washer. Glad its your industry wonderplumb. I'm surprised that things like blue loo and anything else that goes in your cistern is legal. Isn't the water in the cistern still potable water ?

  Once it's in the cistern, no. That's why there's an air gap, any water that you get, basically after it leaves the tap is deemed non potable. 
Sydney Water deems any thing downstream (the outlet side) of your water meter as non-potable.
To answer your question, a lot of Asian, European and Middle Eastern people like bidets and a lot of them will go to extraordinary lengths to have one.

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## physix

Here is my rough plumb in.. i have a dorf jovian shower mixer... where you see the outlet is 1200mm high off the floor the rail shower hose will join that then be attached around the 1900mm mark off the ground ... i am not a plumber so ill be getting a licenced one to join it all up however i have done the pipe positioning is this ok?

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## ringtail

> Once it's in the cistern, no. That's why there's an air gap, any water that you get, basically after it leaves the tap is deemed non potable. 
> Sydney Water deems any thing downstream (the outlet side) of your water meter as non-potable.
> To answer your question, a lot of Asian, European and Middle Eastern people like bidets and a lot of them will go to extraordinary lengths to have one.

  My old man ran a geological tour up around Mt. Isa years ago and had 5 or 6 pakistani fellas along as well as some aussies. In every toilet they used along the way the pakistanis made a huge mess - like someone had cut loose with the fire hose. The publicans and the locals were not impressed. Funny as, as long as you used the bog first.

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## physix

so by simply having my outlet height at 1800 makes some critical change ? even if the actual height that the water comes out form is 1900? 
could i get an opinion of the rough job i have done for the plumber to come do his job.. thanks

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## Steffen595

> It wasn't the hot water heater mate, it was a faulty cistern inlet valve back syphoning out to where the heater was connected. Had nothing to do with the heater.

  thought so, once mains is off, hot water has the highest pressure and bleeds to where ever it can. 
Within 2 years in Australia I fixed more taps than in 35 years before. Never get tired of posting this one 
but storys of plumbers charging a single $50 for replacin a tap washer worth $.25 and $150 for fixing a dish washer (suppose filter clogged, took him 5 min while tennant went to get cash out) explain a lot.
Gutters facing low side towards the house, plus gutters being nearly level plus downpipes at the highest level seem to be quite common, too. Shall I really risk a licensed plumber then?   

> so by simply having my outlet height at 1800 makes some critical change ?  even if the actual height that the water comes out form is 1900?

  human logic says it makes no difference and I suppose your plumber is only to install one of those swivel ones. Try a different plumber, I know they are hard to find, but you could at least try.

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## wonderplumb

> could i get an opinion of the rough job i have done for the plumber to come do his job.. thanks

  The hot water pipe should be lagged, make sure that metal bracing isnt touching the copper pipe anywhere, the outlet point and mixer body should be screwed to timber rather than a metal bracket, and how have the pipes been connected to the mixer body?
Otherwise it looks fine.

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## physix

what do you mean by lagged? and the metal bracing isnt .. i have had to make that bracket because the wall stud is only 70 mm thick and if i put 20mm timber behind it then sticks out of the wall too far.. trust me i have tried ever soo hard to find a solution to that.. but this was the best i could come up with. the metal bracket isnt touching the pipe its at closest 10mm away. 
the pipes have teflon tape with copper compression fittings .. as the mixer has 3 ports all that require a screwed in fitting.

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## physix

If i have an overhead shower should i have the ceiling as something other than gyprock???

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## Steffen595

> what do you mean by lagged?

  inshulashon (thats how our guy pronounced it when he said plashtic pipe doesn't need it)

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## wonderplumb

> what do you mean by lagged? and the metal bracing isnt .. i have had to make that bracket because the wall stud is only 70 mm thick and if i put 20mm timber behind it then sticks out of the wall too far.. trust me i have tried ever soo hard to find a solution to that.. but this was the best i could come up with. the metal bracket isnt touching the pipe its at closest 10mm away. 
> the pipes have teflon tape with copper compression fittings .. as the mixer has 3 ports all that require a screwed in fitting.

  Not a good idea for the brass to be touching the brackets either. Put some duct tape between the bracket and the brass. 
What type of "copper compression fittings" have you used? If you have used a kinco nut and olive you'll have to get rid of them. You'll need to use unions.  50mm seems like a lot of depth for a mixer, usually you can get away with around 35 < 40 mm.

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## wonderplumb

> If i have an overhead shower should i have the ceiling as something other than gyprock???

  Gyprock will be fine.

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## Oldneweng

What is the reason for not connecting the mixer to the bracket electrically. Is this due to the increased risk of electrocution after the wall is covered. To electrically insulate the mixer from the bracket would require more than duct tape between them. There is the problem of the screws connecting the two. 
Dean

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## wonderplumb

It's to do with contact between two dissimilar metals, to prevent galvanic corrosion.

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## physix

> Not a good idea for the brass to be touching the brackets either. Put some duct tape between the bracket and the brass. 
> What type of "copper compression fittings" have you used? If you have used a kinco nut and olive you'll have to get rid of them. You'll need to use unions. 50mm seems like a lot of depth for a mixer, usually you can get away with around 35 < 40 mm.

   ok umm ill have to have a look at unions.. because the actual mixer itself (dorf Jovian ) has these 3 threads which (as far as i can see) will only allow some kind of compression fitting.. im guessing union is jsut a brand name? im jsut have the chrome ones from bunnings. i am very much appreciating the feedback as i want to get this right...

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## physix

> inshulashon (thats how our guy pronounced it when he said plashtic pipe doesn't need it)

  ok sweet.. i will insulate the hot pipe.. and the water outlet pipe... i have noticed in the roof there is 2 corssover points where the hot pipe is in direct contact with the cold.. is this meant to be? or should i separate and insulate?

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## physix

This is the effort at the 2nd shower which will be the overhead. in this instance i could use wood to mount the mixer and made it heaps easier. all the fittings are going to be soldered except where they connect to the mixer.. is this just a dogy mixer should i take it back and ask for one that.. has solder only fittings because i think all mixers now simply have screw in fittings??? 
thanks again guys you have helped me out heaps  
greatly appreciated  :Smilie:

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## physix

> It's to do with contact between two dissimilar metals, to prevent galvanic corrosion.

  ill see what i can do about the metal bracket .... it makes things very hard because there is some kind of metal brace in the wall because it is large and load bearing... and putting in a pice of 20mm timber against this brings me to 15mm of space for the mixer.. then it hangs out of the wall completely so ill have to redesing something by the looks unless there is a way to keep the metal bracket...

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## Steffen595

> ok sweet.. i will insulate the hot pipe.. and the water outlet pipe... i have noticed in the roof there is 2 corssover points where the hot pipe is in direct contact with the cold.. is this meant to be? or should i separate and insulate?

  insulate the whole lot if you can, radiates heat like no tomorrow.
Plastic pipe vs armaflex 
copper pipe vs armaflex 
can you spot a difference between plastic and copper? Me neither.

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## physix

> insulate the whole lot if you can, radiates heat like no tomorrow.
> Plastic pipe vs armaflex 
> copper pipe vs armaflex 
> can you spot a difference between plastic and copper? Me neither.

  
so i cant jsut wrap it in that heat proof tape? ill have to get that plastic pipe around it..? how do you do bends?  and the original house piping has nothing does that mean id have to redo piping or can i just cut the platic stuff wrap it round then tape up???

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## intertd6

> Been told by my plumber that i have "done it wrong" by not adhering to the australian standard of having the shower outlet at 183cm and that i have to rip it out.. this poses some hefty workload.
> I intend to have a double shower with a shower rail on each side. The showers will easily fit someone 190cm under them however my outlets are at 120cm. Is this opinion as i have seen many pictures on the internet like this one which is how i want my shower to look.

  I don't know about the standard for the outlet height, but after the shower head has been dropped & smashed to pieces on the floor half a dozen times because the hose outlet is in the incorrect location, you may want to cancel your wallpaper magazine subscription, function always preceeds form when building.
regards inter

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## Steffen595

> I don't know about the standard for the outlet height, but after the shower head has been dropped & smashed to pieces on the floor half a dozen times because the hose outlet is in the incorrect location,

  just gett 900 hose, can leave it at 1200 then. Seems to work in millions of bathrooms in other countries, never smashed a shower head either. But once again, seems its a different set of laws of physics in this part of the universe. 
For the insulation: cut armaflex pipe long side, slip it over pipe, duct tape. Not the ideal way, but that zipper armaflex stuff, well, o/s model shown. 
The tape does better than metal but 10mm thick insulation is better still. Just put water in a ceramic cup vs metal vs plastic vs styrofoam, the foam one makes a big difference and its just 1mm thick

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## Oldneweng

The following is an excerpt from this document www.copper.org/applications/*plumbing*/.../*galvanic*_*corrosion*.pdf 
"For galvanic corrosion to occur, two dissimilar metals must be connected in the presence of an electrolyte.  Salt water and acid solutions are excellent electrolytes.  Ordinary fresh potable water is a weak electrolyte, and distilled water or condensate, extremely weak electrolytes." 
Maybe this is wrong and new evidence has been discovered but this documents suggests that using a galvanised or other metal bracket to mount a brass mixer or other fitting would not be much of a problem inside a wall in the absence of water. 
I am open to other opinions on this matter as I have metal brackets mounting bath and shower mixers sealed into walls and I am about to start the wall tiling shortly. 
Dean

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## Bedford

I can't open the pdf, but I wonder what they do in steel framed houses? 
Also as long as I can remember they've joined gal pipe to brass fittings in houses, must take a long time to cause a problem.

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## ringtail

Just had a quick look at the galvanic table and zinc ( gal) is just about the most anodic metal ( sacrificial). Brass and copper are very close on the table so there would be bugger all corrosion between those two. Gal to brass or copper while a fair way apart on the table are not miles apart in their properties but the gal will always go first. Agree on the electrolyte bit too. Its more the chlorine in the water that causes any corrosion to the dissimiliar metals

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## physix

> just gett 900 hose, can leave it at 1200 then. Seems to work in millions of bathrooms in other countries, never smashed a shower head either. But once again, seems its a different set of laws of physics in this part of the universe. 
> For the insulation: cut armaflex pipe long side, slip it over pipe, duct tape. Not the ideal way, but that zipper armaflex stuff, well, o/s model shown. 
> The tape does better than metal but 10mm thick insulation is better still. Just put water in a ceramic cup vs metal vs plastic vs styrofoam, the foam one makes a big difference and its just 1mm thick

  thanks steffen i have got some armaflex from bunnings thisafternoon and started wrapping the pipes with it.. i am going to have to take out 1 more wall in the toilet to get the pipes coming in from the outside.  much appreciated  :Smilie:  thanks again

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## physix

> Just had a quick look at the galvanic table and zinc ( gal) is just about the most anodic metal ( sacrificial). Brass and copper are very close on the table so there would be bugger all corrosion between those two. Gal to brass or copper while a fair way apart on the table are not miles apart in their properties but the gal will always go first. Agree on the electrolyte bit too. Its more the chlorine in the water that causes any corrosion to the dissimiliar metals

  thanks ringtail i may just leave the bracket in now because it is painful trying to do it with wood... and i actually thought thats why they made galv metal for that reason? and i woudlnt know what they did in metal framed homes .. good point tho.. im keeping the metal galv bracket i think... too much work went into making it.

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## Oldneweng

I am also going to leave the galv brackets in as unless anybody can give me a reason not to, as far as I can see this is the best method to use. Maybe this talk of galvanic corrosion was just a little out of context in this case. 
I have just tried to open the pdf file as well and got a filed moved sort of message. If anybody really wants to read it I have a copy of it on my computer. PM me with an email address and I will send it. I have to admit I downloaded it direct from Google. Also you could try Googling "galvanic corrosion plumbing" without quote marks like I did and download it from google. 
Chlorine in the water? Not here. Pure rainwater from the country is all that is in my pipes. Another reason I feel safe to leave things as they are. 
Dean

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## Danny

For galvanic corrosion to occur,  there must be a transfer of ions  between two dissimilar metals and the transfer medium is an electolyte  (water). The two metals must be in contact with each other. If two  dissimilar metal pipes have had their contact separated by a dielectric  fitting for example, galvanic corrosion will not occur unless the two  dissimilar metals have been electrically connected as this allows the  electrolyte to transfer ions past the physical barrier. This is why  dielectric and brass fittings etc sometimes fail to stop galvanic  corrosion. With the galvanised bracket, there is a remote possibility  that cold weather could form condensation and a particularly good  plumber would use a bit of duct tape or similar as wonderplumb has  suggested.

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## wonderplumb

Well put, Danny. 
While you have the wall open and everything there in all its glory, it'd be cheap insurance just to make sure things are right. I've never had to use a metal bracket in my life as a plumber to mount a mixer in a wall.

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## Steffen595

or go for plastic ones or painted ones?

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## Oldneweng

"Condensation" inside an insulated (in my case) wall. edit Sorry but its actually 2 insulated walls, 2 mixers. Where does this condensation come from? There would have to be air flow past the mixer. Do you use tape to attach the mixer to the bracket as well. Screws or other attachments would reconnect the two dissimilar metals. But then any moisture could still cover the tape and connect the two metals.  
Actually why cant you acknowledge that you are wrong and confusing a fellow forum member. There is no evidence that there is any problem.    

> there is a remote possibility  that cold weather could form condensation

  and   

> distilled water or condensate, extremely weak electrolytes.

  Says to me to forget it as the risk is not worth considering. 
Wonderplumb. Can you answer the question about   

> what they do in steel framed houses?

   Do you use a wood bracket? Actually I work in a winery and there is copper pipe there connected to steel brackets in about ............... 5000 locations. These pipes carry bore water, rain water, nitrogen and carbon dioxide to name the main ones. I can tell everyone that I have never seen any evidence at all of galvanic corrosion. Some parts of this winery are very old. All of these pipes are fully exposed to the atmosphere and would have condensation on them everyday during the colder months of the year. 
Why don't we let Physix just get on with his reno in the knowledge that his bracket will not cause issues sealed up inside an internal wall as per his picture. 
Dean

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## Steffen595

> what they do in steel framed houses?

  they better don't know because those furring channels make a beer can look solid.

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## Oldneweng

I fully agree with you there. I thought the idea of a steel framed house was a great idea. Then my brother started having a new house built and we looked at a few around the area that were more advanced than his. I changed my mind. I think I would almost rather the beer cans. Thank god mine is 60 year old stringybark framed. 
Dean

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## wonderplumb

> Actually why cant you acknowledge that you are wrong and confusing a fellow forum member. There is no evidence that there is any problem.

  You're right. Galvanic corrosion between two dissimilar metals must be a myth.

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## Steffen595

> You're right. Galvanic corrosion between two dissimilar metals must be a myth.

  thats why my laptop accu went flat, because obviously there is no voltage difference between different materials either. But it took the accu 5 years to figure that one out...

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## Oldneweng

> You're right. Galvanic corrosion between two dissimilar metals must be a myth.

  Without a viable electrolyte in contact with both dissimilar metals it is a myth.  
Do you think that my brass mixer connected with silver solder to copper pipe and fixed to a galv steel angle bracket which is then fixed to stringybark wall frames and sealed inside a lined wall with insulation will suffer from galvanic corrosion? Seriously? 
Why have I never seen evidence of galvanic corrosion at work cosidering the thousands of joints such as these. 
What happens in steel framed houses? Nobody has answered this question yet. Maybe I should ask my brother as he had one built several years ago. Despite the builders policy that the owner is not allowed on site during the building, he was onsite constantly and a good thing too. The plumbing was only one of the things he complained about being substandard. Simple things like one drain pipe just stopped in the middle of nowhere. Connect it to the sewer? that must be some new fandangled idea. One external wall was to be built hanging in mid air. No concrete? Damn, where did that foundation go? Oh someone forgot to allow for a wall?  Just move the wall over a bit cant we? 
I have methods I use when dealing with tradespeople. I ask questions and if I don't like the answers I walk out. In August this year we were in Adelaide because my lovely wife was having breast cancer surgery. Second time around, and the full monty like before except no chemo this time. She was let out for a few hours and while she was out we went to an auto electrician I had been recommended by a ford dealer to fix my car which was not locking/unlocking with the key fobs. This "person" said "bring it in and i'll have a look". My wife was in the car. He knew the situation. I told him that was not possible and he said bring it in and i'll have a look. I mentioned buying an after market central locking kit and he said it wont work because it wont sync with the smartlock unit. At that point I realised that he was only interested in money and he was happy to lie to me to get it. Central locking is standard. The wiring is the same for all of them. The signal sent to the smartlock would still be sent to the smartlock by the new central locking control.This kit cost $16 inc post. It is only fobs, control and wiring. How much for a smartar-- auto electritian to work on the car? I have checked the circuit diagrams. No problems. 
Dean

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## intertd6

> Without a viable electrolyte in contact with both dissimilar metals it is a myth.  
> Do you think that my brass mixer connected with silver solder to copper pipe and fixed to a galv steel angle bracket which is then fixed to stringybark wall frames and sealed inside a lined wall with insulation will suffer from galvanic corrosion? Seriously? 
> Why have I never seen evidence of galvanic corrosion at work cosidering the thousands of joints such as these. 
> What happens in steel framed houses? Nobody has answered this question yet. Maybe I should ask my brother as he had one built several years ago. Despite the builders policy that the owner is not allowed on site during the building, he was onsite constantly and a good thing too. The plumbing was only one of the things he complained about being substandard. Simple things like one drain pipe just stopped in the middle of nowhere. Connect it to the sewer? that must be some new fandangled idea. One external wall was to be built hanging in mid air. No concrete? Damn, where did that foundation go? Oh someone forgot to allow for a wall? Just move the wall over a bit cant we? 
> I have methods I use when dealing with tradespeople. I ask questions and if I don't like the answers I walk out. In August this year we were in Adelaide because my lovely wife was having breast cancer surgery. Second time around, and the full monty like before except no chemo this time. She was let out for a few hours and while she was out we went to an auto electrician I had been recommended by a ford dealer to fix my car which was not locking/unlocking with the key fobs. This "person" said "bring it in and i'll have a look". My wife was in the car. He knew the situation. I told him that was not possible and he said bring it in and i'll have a look. I mentioned buying an after market central locking kit and he said it wont work because it wont sync with the smartlock unit. At that point I realised that he was only interested in money and he was happy to lie to me to get it. Central locking is standard. The wiring is the same for all of them. The signal sent to the smartlock would still be sent to the smartlock by the new central locking control.This kit cost $16 inc post. It is only fobs, control and wiring. How much for a smartar-- auto electritian to work on the car? I have checked the circuit diagrams. No problems. 
> Dean

  It seems decades of materials science research into what shortens the life of building materials & which is taught to trades persons these days means nothing to a layperson, all has been explained with dissimilar metals, in most cases it just has to be separated by some means, imagine in winter the cold water coming from outside the house to a nice warm interior situation, warm air carries more humidity, which could condensate on a cold water pipe within a wall ( that being a bathroom wall in a nice humid environment ) just a drop could trickle down to a small gap between two dissimilar metals & corrosion of a couple of different types may start, water in the earths atmosphere is impossible to remain pure so it is & always will be a electrolite. Some bloke thought he would build a boat entirely from Stainless steel, it sank & was at the bottom of the harbour within a month of being launched because of one type of corrosion.
regards inter

----------


## Oldneweng

We seem to have a large number of viewers following this program. I guess that is a good thing.  
All I have heard is hearsay.   

> Without a viable electrolyte in contact with both dissimilar metals it is a myth.

  "Viable". 
Nobody has reported what they discovered when doing a repair job last year etc, only what they read somewhere. Where is the proof? 
I repeat.   

> Why have I never seen evidence of galvanic corrosion at work cosidering the thousands of joints such as these.

  Give the proof. Where are the pictures? Where is the evidence?  
I repeat   

> "For galvanic corrosion to occur, two dissimilar metals must be  connected in the presence of an electrolyte.  Salt water and acid  solutions are excellent electrolytes.  Ordinary fresh potable water is a  weak electrolyte, and distilled water or condensate, extremely weak  electrolytes."

  Read that. Is it wrong? I asked if it is wrong and nobody has come up with evidence that it is wrong. 
My story about the auto electrician says that I will not believe a tradesperson unless they make sense. If they make statements that are obviously false then I will not believe them! All I am asking is proof and evidence.   

> imagine in winter the cold water coming from outside the house to a  nice warm interior situation, warm air carries more humidity, which  could condensate on a cold water pipe within a wall ( that being a  bathroom wall in a nice humid environment ) just a drop could trickle  down to a small gap between two dissimilar metals & corrosion of a  couple of different types may start, water in the earths atmosphere is  impossible to remain pure so it is & always will be a electrolite.

  Bathroom wall is sealed. Insulation prevents air movement. No condensation and anyway   

> "For galvanic corrosion to occur, two dissimilar metals must be  connected in the presence of an electrolyte.  Salt water and acid  solutions are excellent electrolytes.  Ordinary fresh potable water is a  weak electrolyte, and distilled water or condensate, extremely weak  electrolytes."

   

> It seems decades of materials science research into what shortens the  life of building materials & which is taught to trades persons these  days means nothing to a layperson, all has been explained with  dissimilar metals

  I don't deny the decades of research, just the out of context use the information is put to by trades persons. Boat at bottom of harbour. Corrosion (not stated as galvanic and maybe totally unrelated to this issue) Salt water. Lets see     

> Salt water and acid  solutions are excellent electrolytes.

   Out of context in this situation. 
Provide proof and I will believe. Spout jargon from trade school and I will wait for reality. I excelled at chemistry and physics at school and did well at maths. I still use the info extensively. I understand the science. I also understand when someone is faking knowledge. Show me real knowledge! 
Dean

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## intertd6

honestly i'm too lazy to scan my text books & case notes from my diploma of applied science in building for you, but do keep going on with what you believe.
regards inter

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## wonderplumb

I guess people just like to hate tradesmen. I've seen enough instances of galvanic corrosion from fittings being screwed to gal braxkets, copper pipe being held into a timber frame with nails and so on. If you think we're just having a lend, good on you champ. 
I only suggested he do it while the wall is open and it would be at nil cost, and it is possible so why not? Why wouldn't you insure its integrity while you're installing it? As for metal framed houses, copper pipe is lagged as it passes through the studs, in most cases rubber grommets are used in conjunction with a punch to get through studs.

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## PeteV

to add to wonderplumb, in steel framed construction, lugged elbows are fixed to a timber noggin. all the argument above seems to be fixed around a bit of tape?! why the confusion? just do it! hope this helps!

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## Oldneweng

In Physix's case he has the wall lining off. I don't and I want to know if it is worth pulling off the lining when I am just about to tile the walls. All I have read is it could, it might or may. All talk and no proof. I don't dislike trades people, I am just wary of them from past experience of my own and others. I could write a book about the problems my brother had in having his house built. He read up on building standards and quoted them when he found problems. He was basically told that "we don't bother to follow standards". He has had building industry experience in the past. My step son works in building industry as a contractor. Both agreed that the company chosen would be a good one. The main reason for choice was one that would do a good job and follow wishes of owner. What are the rest like? 
My step son tells me what trades people are like and what he has to do to fix their problems before he can do his work. I just think that there are a lot of suspect trades people out there and its hard to weed them out. I also find that they often tend to be stuck in their ways and rigid. Sometimes that is good but when they are rigid about being wrong, how often will they admit it? Take this case for example. All tradies stand up for each other but it has taken a lot of posts to get a half way decent comment about experiences. No proof yet tho. I have to drag it out of you and what do I get?   

> If you think we're just having a lend, good on you champ.

  If you expect me to believe that everything a tradie tells me is gospel truth then you are sadly mistaken. I have been lied to by far to many. My research so far tells me    

> "For galvanic corrosion to occur, two dissimilar metals must be   connected in the presence of an electrolyte.  Salt water and acid   solutions are excellent electrolytes.  Ordinary fresh potable water is a   weak electrolyte, and distilled water or condensate, extremely weak   electrolytes."

  My wall will not have air flow so where does the moisture come from to become an "extremely weak   electrolyte" which still wont cause galvanic electrolosis. 
and nobody has answered.   

> Why have I never seen evidence of galvanic corrosion at work considering the thousands of joints such as these.

  Nobody has provided information about how the document I quoted is wrong. Nobody has explained how the fixer is attached to the bracket without using metal fixers. In fact nobody has explained anything. All they have done is quoted stuff from training. 
Intertd6 drops the fact he has a diploma. So what. So have I. I have a Diploma in accounting. My neighbour says his accountant wont let him claim farm ute costs on tax except for what is used on the farm. Go into town to buy stuff? No claim. That accountant is an idiot and he probably has a degree. So bits of paper don't mean much. 
The only way I and everybody else out there can avoid being ripped off is to ask questions and to expect real answers. "Because thats the way it is " has me walking out the door. 
When I was 18 I had an argument with a mechanic because I questioned why he suggested I needed a wheel alignment after a particular job. He got angry because he thought I was having a go. It must happen to you a lot (tradies). I kept at him and at him until he finally told me the answer to get rid of me. He got a shock when I said ok, I can understand that. He realised I wanted the answer, not just rhetoric. 
I don't think you understand, any of you. Just because you say it is so, doesn't make it so. At this point I am not even remotely convinced and it is the lack of honest genuine information at fault. It has taken a long time for Wonderplumb to comment on actual experience. Way down page 2 of the thread. 
Dean

----------


## wonderplumb

Dear oh deary me, you are special. I really could not be bothered with this anymore, all this nonsense of yours over a suggestion to wrap a metal bracket in duct tape. Well done.

----------


## watson

*ADMIN INPUT:* 
Dean,
Our more experienced members are here to give advice ......I reckon you're pushing the point to an anal extreme (having hijacked the OP's thread). 
Relax...it's like sodomising flies

----------


## Steffen595



----------


## intertd6

> In Physix's case he has the wall lining off. I don't and I want to know if it is worth pulling off the lining when I am just about to tile the walls. All I have read is it could, it might or may. All talk and no proof._ You might just be better off to take a chance with your less than perfect installation, you may never have a problem or then you might._ I don't dislike trades people, I am just wary of them from past experience of my own and others. I could write a book about the problems my brother had in having his house built. He read up on building standards and quoted them when he found problems. He was basically told that "we don't bother to follow standards". He has had building industry experience in the past. My step son works in building industry as a contractor. Both agreed that the company chosen would be a good one. The main reason for choice was one that would do a good job and follow wishes of owner. What are the rest like? 
> My step son tells me what trades people are like and what he has to do to fix their problems before he can do his work. I just think that there are a lot of suspect trades people out there and its hard to weed them out. I also find that they often tend to be stuck in their ways and rigid. Sometimes that is good but when they are rigid about being wrong, how often will they admit it? Take this case for example. All tradies stand up for each other but it has taken a lot of posts to get a half way decent comment about experiences. No proof yet tho. I have to drag it out of you and what do I get?   _Something you don't want to hear obviously. _ If you expect me to believe that everything a tradie tells me is gospel truth then you are sadly mistaken. I have been lied to by far to many. My research so far tells me  
> My wall will not have air flow so where does the moisture come from to become an "extremely weak electrolyte" which still wont cause galvanic electrolosis. 
> and nobody has answered. _It has but we will try again, why does the wall void have to have airflow? timber, plasterboard, villaboard are all permiable materials, even the wall void air contains moisture, once the temperature dew point is crossed between materials water vapour will condensate, could be a tiny amount or visible drips  _ 
> Nobody has provided information about how the document I quoted is wrong. Nobody has explained how the fixer is attached to the bracket without using metal fixers. In fact nobody has explained anything. All they have done is quoted stuff from training. _In our industry it is wise to follow proven trade practice & learn from other peoples mistakes, I know myself that I wouldn't want to re invent the wheel for every job. But then again some trades only have to have 2 years industry experience to become subcontractors, not electricians or plumbers though. _ Intertd6 drops the fact he has a diploma. So what. So have I. I have a Diploma in accounting. My neighbour says his accountant wont let him claim farm ute costs on tax except for what is used on the farm. Go into town to buy stuff? No claim. That accountant is an idiot and he probably has a degree. So bits of paper don't mean much. _I should add a trade certificate, 4 years apprenticeship, a builders licence & 34 years industry experience, so I have probably seen & forgot more than a layperson or my accountant will ever know about building. _ The only way I and everybody else out there can avoid being ripped off is to ask questions and to expect real answers. "Because thats the way it is " has me walking out the door.  _To avoid being ripped off everybody should use people of good character & reputation who charge a fair amount. But even then they will get peeved with a over bearing customer. _ When I was 18 I had an argument with a mechanic because I questioned why he suggested I needed a wheel alignment after a particular job. He got angry because he thought I was having a go. It must happen to you a lot (tradies). I kept at him and at him until he finally told me the answer to get rid of me. He got a shock when I said ok, I can understand that. He realised I wanted the answer, not just rhetoric. 
> I don't think you understand, any of you. Just because you say it is so, doesn't make it so. At this point I am not even remotely convinced and it is the lack of honest genuine information at fault. It has taken a long time for Wonderplumb to comment on actual experience. Way down page 2 of the thread.   _If you were ever to need the services of a specialist doctor & ask them a about why it is so for everything that they have learned they would most likely ask you to leave._  
>  Dean

  regards inter

----------


## Oldneweng

> *ADMIN INPUT:* 
> Dean,
> Our more experienced members are here to give advice ......I reckon you're pushing the point to an anal extreme (having hijacked the OP's thread). 
> Relax...it's like sodomising flies

  The OP has long gone on to other ventures. 
Relax? I'm having a ball. Not one person has mentioned any specific real evidence. I think it is fabulous to see how far people will go to push their beliefs without any evidence at all. I have repeatedly asked for genuine proof in context and been willing to accept it if given. 
Dean

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## ringtail

"I reckon you're pushing the point to an anal extreme" 
Said the actress to the bishop :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  
Sorry, couldn't resist.

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## Oldneweng

> _If you were ever to need the services of a  specialist doctor & ask them a about why it is so for everything  that they have learned they would most likely ask you to leave._

   Actually a specialist doctor would explain everything they do in detail. They have to by law. I know I have been there many times. Point is tho that I am not going to doctor myself. Difference there is I want to learn the truth about what I am doing to my house but there is some professional secret happening here. I understand what you say. I don't agree there is evidence to indicate a problem in my case. I have seen inside my walls myself. Dry as dust all the way. My problem is whether the problem is serious enough to tear off lining. 
I don't believe negative statements about me are acceptable or fair. I have not been negative in any way.  
My last comment on this issue,    

> _To avoid being ripped off everybody should  use people of good character & reputation who charge a fair amount.  But even then they will get peeved with a over bearing customer._

  If asking questions is my way to determine the answer to the above statement and the person in question has not managed to answer these questions to my satisfaction should I ignore my principals and take a chance or should I walk away?  
Dean

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## wonderplumb

> I have not been negative in any way.

   :Roflmao:

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## physix

sorry to open up a big can of worms here.. i have now taken the mixer off the metal bracket and am trying for a wood bracket solution.. i will have photos up soon.. and yes i have measured the depth of the mixers at 58mm... it seems the higher quality you get the more depth they have.. and some methven mixers can only be installed in a 90mm stud wall.. so yeah thats why i originally was looking at the metal as a solution.. il will update and let you know how i go.. on weekend i installed aluminium ducting for the ceiling fan and routed it to under the eve.

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## Bedford

You might be able to use a piece of plywood cut to fit between the studs and around the brace. 
This should give plenty of strength and still allow the mixer to be at the correct depth.

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## Godzilla73

> Just because you say it is so, doesn't make it so.

  Just because you think everyone is out to get you, doesn't mean they're not...   

> At this point I am not even remotely convinced and it is the lack of honest genuine information at fault.

  So all the on the job experience freely offered on here is lies then? Guess i'll keep my blinkered, stubborn, set in concrete old school ways to myself from now on...

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## wonderplumb

A piece of formply works well for me in this situation.

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## Godzilla73

Could you fix the outlet you have now facing up screwed to the noggin, put an elbow on it and then a length of threaded pipe out the wall, or is this to many possible leak points?

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## physix

> Could you fix the outlet you have now facing up screwed to the noggin, put an elbow on it and then a length of threaded pipe out the wall, or is this to many possible leak points?

  nah outlet is sweet it has wood behind it now.. its the mixer that has big depth ... there is a pic of it up further.

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## physix

thanks guys i will give the ply a go and take a pic to update ... see how it goes 
thanks muchly again

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## intertd6

> Actually a specialist doctor would explain everything they do in detail. *That would be correct but seem to be off at a tangent, a person being a little more observant would have read "If you were ever to need the services of a specialist doctor & ask them a about why it is so for everything that they have learned they would most likely ask you to leave."* _And I know a lot of them that would ask you to as well_. but if you They have to by law. I know I have been there many times. Point is tho that I am not going to doctor myself. Difference there is I want to learn the truth about what I am doing to my house but there is some professional secret happening here. I understand what you say. I don't agree there is evidence to indicate a problem in my case. I have seen inside my walls myself. Dry as dust all the way. My problem is whether the problem is serious enough to tear off lining. 
> I don't believe negative statements about me are acceptable or fair. I have not been negative in any way.  _I remember a saying from somewhere, "everybody is an idiot, but somehow they manage to put up with me" _ My last comment on this issue,  
> If asking questions is my way to determine the answer to the above statement and the person in question has not managed to answer these questions to my satisfaction should I ignore my principals and take a chance or should I walk away?   _The definition of someones satisfaction in some cases is about as quantifiable as "how long is a piece of string" _ Dean

  regards inter

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## Steffen595

> I guess people just like to hate tradesmen.

  colleague got his toilet done. A few weeks later the plasterboard ceiling downstairs below the toilet starts bulging. I suppose at $110 per hr for a plumber you would expect a little better. Or is it $10 for the work and $100 to fix it? Out of 4 days out plumbers spent 1 day fixing their stuff. 
For the brackets: just ripping my bathroom apart. Fairly agricultural plumbing, no brackets, just nails to hold the stuff. Not even galvanised. The good news: they are like new. Maybe because the wall is so well airated? Water proofing is just something for the BCA, not for the real world I assume. And once the plaster is off you see dailight.

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## intertd6

> colleague got his toilet done. A few weeks later the plasterboard ceiling downstairs below the toilet starts bulging. I suppose at $110 per hr for a plumber you would expect a little better. Or is it $10 for the work and $100 to fix it? Out of 4 days out plumbers spent 1 day fixing their stuff. 
> For the brackets: just ripping my bathroom apart. Fairly agricultural plumbing, no brackets, just nails to hold the stuff. Not even galvanised. The good news: they are like new. Maybe because the wall is so well airated? Water proofing is just something for the BCA, not for the real world I assume. And once the plaster is off you see dailight.

  When banks dictate how much a building is to cost & most things are self certified then quality is going to suffer in some cases, for the almighty dollar there are some out there that would sell their grandmothers to make money. I'm all for cleaning up any industry to get people of good character & reputation back, a start would be what some of my previous employers have done for years, drug testing & no criminal record before getting a start.
regards inter

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## Steffen595

> When banks dictate how much a building is to cost

  this makes sense in volume building, 3 days to plaster 1 house, took 2 guys 2 1/2 days to do 1 big and 2 small rooms in mine and they did well.  
Colleague I mentioned, no waterproofing in his 1996 appartment. My house is 1950s, glad it does not still have lead plumbing and this cotton crap wiring. And has running water too. 
Self certified: I just need the certificates of a certified tradesman, for insurance and when I am going to sell. Most of times I would do a better job. And it hurts coughing up $110 an hr for that **** have to draw stuff 7 hrs for that. And then spend rest of day fixing things of "don't risk a licensed one". 
So its just govt blackmailig tradies for license fee, once they cough up you are forced to get a licensed dude who ripps you off, spent 4 years at school and makes $100 000 a year. If you have a qualification of sorts, centrelink won't help you find a job and all that. If you are underqualified, world is your oyster and any agent gets you something. 
And don't get me started on BCA, thats minimum requirements, and buildings are not even done to this minimum denominator. Just print it on toilet paper so you can stick it where it belongs.

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## Steffen595

but if a apprenticeship takes 4 years, what do they do? Most people don't even have double light switches in their hallways. That should take 1 week to figure out. Rest of the 4 years is spent like that: 1st year: buy meat pies. 2nd year: buy sausage rolls. 3rd year: now you are 18, bur beer. 4th year : clean the shop.

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## Godzilla73

> but if a apprenticeship takes 4 years, what do they do? Most people don't even have double light switches in their hallways. That should take 1 week to figure out. Rest of the 4 years is spent like that: 1st year: buy meat pies. 2nd year: buy sausage rolls. 3rd year: now you are 18, bur beer. 4th year : clean the shop.

  Maybe in a bigger operation you'd get this, but most 1-2 man shows can't afford that amount of time wasting, it's almost the other way around, they get 2 blocks of tafe and start earning your keep knackers. 
The guys we see out on jobs for work have an apprentice on 1 job, then the next job back to crawling in the roof. Same story from the boss, ahhh, too hard for him...The few that do stay seem to be sons of the boss, and i've seen a few great father son relationships shot to bits. 
Yeah $100,000 a year for a 22 y/o from a white van seems ridiculous but they've done the time and deserve a shot, we're all playing in the same game after all, I've seen plenty step out and have a crack then chuck it in. 
It does seem that every young bloke wants to be a sparky or plumber, but if people pay the $100+ p/h then for now that's the playing field, they still have to do the work and back it up, but at what point do you get saturation? Maybe we won't ever reach that point because of all the DIY'ers out there who think they can do just as good a job. 
Like me... :Blush7:  Two way switch in the bedroom, 5 minutes on the web, job done...

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## PeteV

sounds to me like some among us have a complex about what tradies earn... we all made our own choices in life, if your field of work doesn't pay enough, then get another job! alternatively, just pay the bill! it really pisses me off this attitude!

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## Godzilla73

:Goodpost:  Plenty of jobs out there if you want to work...

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## Danny

> sounds to me like some among us have a complex about what tradies earn...

  Not to mention that many seem to think that what tradies and other professionals charge goes straight into the scrip and that obligatory fixed overheads are non existent.

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## wonderplumb

> sounds to me like some among us have a complex about what tradies earn... we all made our own choices in life, if your field of work doesn't pay enough, then get another job! alternatively, just pay the bill! it really pisses me off this attitude!

   :Iagree:

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## wonderplumb

> And it hurts coughing up $110 an hr for that ****.

  Where abouts? I might move there if I can get $110 p/h........

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## ringtail

So how do you earn a crust steffen595 ?

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## Danny

English teacher?

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## wonderplumb

> English teacher?

  I love a bit of irony with my tea and toast on a Sunday morning.

----------


## intertd6

> this makes sense in volume building, 3 days to plaster 1 house, took 2 guys 2 1/2 days to do 1 big and 2 small rooms in mine and they did well.  
> Colleague I mentioned, no waterproofing in his 1996 appartment. My house is 1950s, glad it does not still have lead plumbing and this cotton crap wiring. And has running water too. 
> Self certified: I just need the certificates of a certified tradesman, for insurance and when I am going to sell. Most of times I would do a better job. And it hurts coughing up $110 an hr for that **** have to draw stuff 7 hrs for that. And then spend rest of day fixing things of "don't risk a licensed one". 
> So its just govt blackmailig tradies for license fee, once they cough up you are forced to get a licensed dude who ripps you off, spent 4 years at school and makes $100 000 a year. If you have a qualification of sorts, centrelink won't help you find a job and all that. If you are underqualified, world is your oyster and any agent gets you something. 
> And don't get me started on BCA, thats minimum requirements, and buildings are not even done to this minimum denominator. Just print it on toilet paper so you can stick it where it belongs.

  You think your being ripped off for $110hr for a humble plumber, try a specialist doctor who operates 2 days a week, 4 operations a day @ $27,000 each operation, obsene isn't it & they still bury their mistakes. Try the bashing where we are really being ripped off.
regards inter

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## Danny

> "I reckon you're pushing the point to an anal extreme" 
> Said the actress to the bishop 
> Sorry, couldn't resist.

  Just as her hubby walked in? 
The classic example of the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time!

----------


## physix

Ok guys i have taken wonderplumbs advice and managed to fit a wooden block with some neat cuts behind the mixer... but it still has galvanized screws touching it to hold it in... but i dont think i can do anything else to hold it there lol
so this is what its looking like all soldered up aswell.

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## wonderplumb

Good job, may I ask why your plumber used soft solder?
If those chrome fittings are kinco nuts with nylon olives they are not permitted in a wall. Nylon olives deteriorate after time. They will have to be proper unions.

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## ringtail

Was thinking the sme thing about the solder

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## SlowMick

I'm not a plumbers knee cap but i am really confused. 
Does this shower have three sets of taps?  it looks like two mixers and a pair of regular taps in the second picture?

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## SlowMick

Seems you guys have been over thinking it - Mr Vicegrips the plumber doesn't need wooden noggins or metal brackets to support his mixer - he just hangs it off the pipes.     
the article even stated that "Call a plumber.  Don't be tempted to have a go at plumbing jobs or risk costly and illegal mistakes."   :Doh:

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## wonderplumb

Ha ha, vice grips :Doh:

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## manofaus

you would get 110 an hour up the hunter valley....
plus you don't need to quote, it is so hard to get tradies they only do and charge.

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## physix

yeah sorry for the confustion .. i have the cold pipe still joined to the old plumbing. the old pipes will come out when i join the new plumbing to the house sytsem.  I have brass olivees wrapped in teflon tape joining the mixer but now you have said that i had to solder the pipes after i did that... so hoping the tape hasnt perished inside the join... i am joining it to the Hot and cold this weekend then getting a pressure test done.. 
can i get some advice will the teflon shrink away and cause a bad leak if i have soldered near it?

----------


## physix

> Good job, may I ask why your plumber used soft solder?
> If those chrome fittings are kinco nuts with nylon olives they are not permitted in a wall. Nylon olives deteriorate after time. They will have to be proper unions.

  /
On the mixer there is thread only.. so i have to screw in a compression fitting to it.. is there any other way ?

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## SlowMick

Physix - i think the guys were suggeting you buy threaded fittings with a capillary (solder connection on the side).  that way you solder a short piece of pipe into the fitting then screw it into the mixer - the solder the end of the pipe to your supply pipes.  they sell these fittings at Bunnings - look in the boxes with the pink tags called capillary fittings. 
looks like this

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## physix

> Physix - i think the guys were suggeting you buy threaded fittings with a capillary (solder connection on the side). that way you solder a short piece of pipe into the fitting then screw it into the mixer - the solder the end of the pipe to your supply pipes. they sell these fittings at Bunnings - look in the boxes with the pink tags called capillary fittings. 
> looks like this

  i didnt get them i got the ones which screw into both ends.. the screw in bit screws into the mixer.. so i have screwed that in with teflon tape.. then the other bit has a copper olive that goes round the pipe so i did that with teflon tape aswell... have i stuffed it??.. am i supposed to solder it into the fitting then screw it on???? if thats the case then i will have to do 6 joins again  :Frown:   :Frown:   :Frown:

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## wonderplumb

> yeah sorry for the confustion .. i have the cold pipe still joined to the old plumbing. the old pipes will come out when i join the new plumbing to the house sytsem. I have brass olivees wrapped in teflon tape joining the mixer but now you have said that i had to solder the pipes after i did that... so hoping the tape hasnt perished inside the join... i am joining it to the Hot and cold this weekend then getting a pressure test done.. 
> can i get some advice will the teflon shrink away and cause a bad leak if i have soldered near it?

  Well, I would be more worried about the guts of your mixer being affected by heat than the teflon. 
Kinco nuts and olives are a no no inside a wall, regardless of what they are made from.

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## wonderplumb

> Physix - i think the guys were suggeting you buy threaded fittings with a capillary (solder connection on the side). that way you solder a short piece of pipe into the fitting then screw it into the mixer - the solder the end of the pipe to your supply pipes. they sell these fittings at Bunnings - look in the boxes with the pink tags called capillary fittings. 
> looks like this

  This is another way to do it, however to keep up to code they should really be unions.   _(This is advice only, not a detailed description of how to carry out such work)_

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## wonderplumb

> i didnt get them i got the ones which screw into both ends.. the screw in bit screws into the mixer.. so i have screwed that in with teflon tape.. then the other bit has a copper olive that goes round the pipe so i did that with teflon tape aswell... have i stuffed it??.. am i supposed to solder it into the fitting then screw it on???? if thats the case then i will have to do 6 joins again

  I'm afraid so, you'll have to re do the lot again, with unions.

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## ringtail

How long should the tail be that you solder into the union ? Does it have to be a certain length so the mixer isnt damaged when soldering onto the tail ? same question again but how close are you allowed to braze near a compression fitting with nylon olive ? Ive heard its 250 mm ???

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## watson

This Library file may help..sorry.... haven't got the time to check through myself  http://www.renovateforum.com/f221/pr...80/#post794463

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## physix

> I'm afraid so, you'll have to re do the lot again, with unions.

  OK i have cut the mixers out and getting unions now. ill take photo when its done

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## wonderplumb

> How long should the tail be that you solder into the union ? Does it have to be a certain length so the mixer isnt damaged when soldering onto the tail ? same question again but how close are you allowed to braze near a compression fitting with nylon olive ? Ive heard its 250 mm ???

  If you have a fitting with a nylon olive, this usually suggests that the pipe is easily removeable from said fitting, so you'd simply take it apart, remove the olive, weld your joint then put it back together with a new olive.

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## ringtail

Totally agree but isnt there some issue with annealing the copper where the olive sits ?

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## physix

so this is the union'd join.. how are things looking now wonderplumb?

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## Godzilla73

Am i missing something or could you use a flared union in this situation as well? Just asking...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  This is what my place had, so i replaced like with like...

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## SlowMick

my apologies for posting the wrong fittings.  i thought this what i had seen in other posts.  sorry, i am not a plumber.  :Frown:

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## wonderplumb

> so this is the union'd join.. how are things looking now wonderplumb?

  Still not a union so it still doesn't comply, but it's better than what you had.

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## physix

> Still not a union so it still doesn't comply, but it's better than what you had.

  thats the closest thing i could find at bunnings..  
i have never heard or seen a union? do u have a photo of one?

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## Bedford

Firstly I'm not a plumber,  :Smilie:  but every one of these I've seen installed uses these, Flare Hex Nipple - Male BSP 
You will need to flare the copper though.

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## Godzilla73

:What he said:   This is what i used...

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## Godzilla73

Hang on pooter malfunction...

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## wonderplumb

> thats the closest thing i could find at bunnings..  
> i have never heard or seen a union? do u have a photo of one?

  Why Bunnings? Why not Reece or Tradelink or the Co-op? Unions are one of the most common availabe brass fittings you'll find.

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## ringtail

Well what the hell is a union then ? That photo in post 109 is a union as far as I know. Thats whats been sold to me on more than one occasion from plumbing suppliers to fit mixers. Thread sealing compound ( not tape) on the thread and silver solder a copper tail into  it before screwing it into the mixer.  If they are so common why is there so much confusion as to what they are ?

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## physix

Ok i went to reece and got pretty much what godzilla has posted.. and these things have 2 places that require teflon tape and have a loose sliding part which really does worry me.. so just on a mathematical stance it would seem they have double the chance of leaking?? so just before i go rip out all the solders on the ones that i did for the 2nd time i just want to know am i putting in something to comply with standards that has mathematically more chance of busting a leak or are they actually better than what i have put in? (what i put in are similar to the pic however there is a thread on the outside)

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## Godzilla73

The fitting i posted has only 2 bits, the threaded nut which you put on the copper pipe then flare the end, you then mate the flared copper to the other part of the fitting which is screwed into the mixer. No olive, the part in the mixer has a corresponding angle to fit into the flare. Line it up square and tighten by hand first then wrench it home, bit of joint compound inside and outside of the flare to stop it form grabbing and that's it... I like to pressure up the pipes and run all the air out of it and wait a few hours or days. (I take my time and have plenty of other things to do when i renovate.!!) to check for leaks.

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## physix

> The fitting i posted has only 2 bits, the threaded nut which you put on the copper pipe then flare the end, you then mate the flared copper to the other part of the fitting which is screwed into the mixer. No olive, the part in the mixer has a corresponding angle to fit into the flare. Line it up square and tighten by hand first then wrench it home, bit of joint compound inside and outside of the flare to stop it form grabbing and that's it... I like to pressure up the pipes and run all the air out of it and wait a few hours or days. (I take my time and have plenty of other things to do when i renovate.!!) to check for leaks.

  ok cool yeah once i do the joins i will be doing a pressure test... by that do u mean just let theair out of the pipes
and let the water sit in there for a few days or so before putting the walls back on?

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## Godzilla73

Yep, i let it flow out into a bucket from all the points i've worked on, then leave it. I usually have other things i can do in the room, i let more water out over that time just to check as well. I've trawled the net for a better pic for you but found zip...Frustrating...as they're common as muck and work...

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## intertd6

The union you need is a 3 piece unit, cause when the pipes are soldered together the nut can be tightened or loosened when all the pipes are fixed & cant be rotated, what has been shown there cant be tightened if it fails under test & needs attention.
regards inter

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## physix

> The union you need is a 3 piece unit, cause when the pipes are soldered together the nut can be tightened or loosened when all the pipes are fixed & cant be rotated, what has been shown there cant be tightened if it fails under test & needs attention.
> regards inter

  for sure if the mixer fails then id just have to take it back id have to cut the pipes out also to remove it.. but im hoping that being a dorf with 15 year warranty it wont, so yeah the union will give a quick release to take the mixer out. but im hoping to never have to take it out. 
my understanding is that its usually just the cartridge that needs replacing and the mixer doesnt have to be removed to do this?

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## wonderplumb

> The union you need is a 3 piece unit, cause when the pipes are soldered together the nut can be tightened or loosened when all the pipes are fixed & cant be rotated, what has been shown there cant be tightened if it fails under test & needs attention.
> regards inter

  The best way is to use hex nipples in the body then what's called either a 62 or 63 out of that, its a small union type fitting that's soldered onto the pipe.
It might be a bit late but I'll also add that any mixer, including wall mixers, need to have their own isolation valves fitted aswell so it can be removed in the event of a failure without shutting down the water to the whole house.

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## physix

> The best way is to use hex nipples in the body then what's called either a 62 or 63 out of that, its a small union type fitting that's soldered onto the pipe.
> It might be a bit late but I'll also add that any mixer, including wall mixers, need to have their own isolation valves fitted aswell so it can be removed in the event of a failure without shutting down the water to the whole house.

  lol yeah i could solder 2 of them (hot and cold ) into the pipes in the roof that will isolate the shower mixers... but i finished the plumbing today all soldered up and no leaks. there was a leak to begin with and it was a teflon join not a solder join so replaced that and its all looking good now going to leave the walls off for a few weeks to see if any leaks show and finish rest of bathroom.

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