# Forum Home Renovation Stairs, Steps and Ramps  Handrail Joins

## timbernovice

I'm presently replacing a timber railing on a set of external stairs on our two level house.  I have three 35 X 35mm metal posts (I know, I should be using timber... sorry!), with a ladies waist handrail running a 4.4m length (supported at 2.2 with one post). 
The top of the rail meets my top post at about a 30degree angle, which I want to then join to another rail running at right angles to this.  
Strength is not a concern as both sections of timber will be connected by an angled bracket (I know, not very professional either!).  I'm mainly concerned about the visual appearance, especially considering it's at the top of the stairs outside the front door! 
Any suggestions would be welcomed... 
timbernovice.

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## Trav

You could use biscuits I guess (if you are using a bracket) or pehaps screws countersunk and then plugged or filled.  The usual joint for handrails is a scarf joint either 45 deg overlapping and nailed/screwed together or preferably house out the top of one rail and the bottom of the other so that they overlap by some 50mmor more.   
You should note that the building code will have some regulations on the structural elements of the handrail - especially for a second floor balcony etc.   
I personally would be more concerned about the 2.2m spans - that would want to be a seriously strong handrail to span that distance.  You wouldn't want someone to lean on it and then find that it gives way underneath their weight.   
If you don't want wobble in your rail, throw in a few more posts.  Better to overengineer than under do it! 
My 5c worth 
Trav

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## Marc

Hi TimberN.
All of the above, plus. 
You say nothing about balusters, check the code but if I'm not wrong, they should be about 100 to 150mm apart and you want also more posts and rather of the 50 x 50 sort ... but ... to your aesthetics question. 
You handrail will meet the horizontal section at 30 degree, so in order to get both parts to coincide you must cut each at 15 degrees. Yet if you do so this will produce a sharp corner on your rail almost like the corner on a picture frame. 
To get a smooth handrail you will need to make a section of curved handrail to join both straight sections. For 30 degree a short piece of about 150 to 200mm long is enough. This part will finish at 90 degree at both ends and give so a smooth hand rail. 
If you don't see yourself making this, (I don't blame you, many professional carpenters stay away from curve handrails) you can try a smaller one, a sort of 30 degree wedge that will fill the space between the two straight rails, and that you will carve and sand patently into shape to meet the shape of the other parts. You can join the three parts with double dowels and glue with epoxy glue. Do so before it is completely finish and give the final touches with hand plane, scraper, carving knife, sandpaper etc. once it is set in place. 
The above should nevertheless be your last concern since it seems your handrail needs a re-think in the engineering department.

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## journeyman Mick

The transitional piece that Marc refers to is called a handrail "wreath", these used to be hand carved to provide a smooth transition at changes of angle and/or direction. Nowadays, as Marc suggests, the angle is generally broken up with an intermediate piece. Don't know if there is a joinery term for it, but in engineering when pipe "curves" are made out of multiple angled straight sections they're called "lobster backs". And that's today's joinery trivia.  :Cool:   
Mick

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## timbernovice

[QUOTE=Marc]Hi TimberN.
All of the above, plus. 
"You say nothing about balusters, check the code but if I'm not wrong, they should be about 100 to 150mm apart and you want also more posts and rather of the 50 x 50 sort ... but ... to your aesthetics question." 
Marc, 
I've used 316 grade Stainless wire in place of balusters... aiming for a combination look rather than all timber.  6 strands 120mm apart.  Top rail seems to be supported fine with 35mm posts (at present anyway).  Ended up cutting out section the width of the rail, and half the thickness on horizontal section.  Overlapped the height of the 30 degree joining section and plained the excess.  Looks ok... 
Thanks for the suggestions.

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## Marc

I built a veranda on a house in Tatra that had a 5 meter drop to the bush below and under the handrail we had horizontal lines of SS marine cable. It looked OK and the council approoved it. 
However ... when my first grandson was born I went back and fixed chicken wire over the cables all round. I coulnd sleep at night thinking of that balustrade. 
I'm glad you worked out a way to join the two sections, my solution was a bit over the top...of course you could have laminated a piece and then .... oh stopit now!!!   :Rolleyes:

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