# Forum Home Renovation Flooring  what to finish floors with

## m6sports

going to rent a floor sander next weekend and still not sure what to paint the floors with
its either 
ESTAPOL two pack polyurethane
Water-based polyurethane
or
Oil-based polyurethane
ive been told the Estapol is the best but its also the most expensive 
i also like the Water-based polyurethane as its easy to clean up  
also whats best in hiding scratches High or low sheen

----------


## Dusty

In my not too humble opinion.
Wattyl 7008 two pac polyurethane will be your best bet.

----------


## m6sports

whats the best way to apply it
wool roller or wool mop

----------


## Dusty

Cut in with a brush. 
Roll the main field with a 6mll short nap Mohair roller.

----------


## Gooner

> In my not too humble opinion.
> Wattyl 7008 two pac polyurethane will be your best bet.

  I used the Wattyl 7008 on my floors and the final result was very good. The finish is hard wearing and looks great. 
HOWEVER, there are a few things here to consider. 
1. One big put-off on this product is that it cannot be re-coated. If down the track (say in 5-10 years) you want to get rid of those pesky scratches in your floor, you cannot give the floor a light sand and re-coat, as you can do with other products. Instead, you have to sand back down to bare timber and do it again. This is the only reason why I would not use it again. I spoke with Wattyl technical support and they did confirm this.  
2. It is much more expensive than other options. I bought 2x 20 litre drums (part A and B) for around $700 from Bunnies. I could have bought other products for half that price. 
3. It is difficult to clean, requires mixing, and part B goes "off" after about 3 months of opening the Tin. I knew about this in advance but at the time it did not bother me. But when it came time to doing the job I had the problem where I had to mix more-or-less exact amounts for each coat because what was left over could not be stored and used the next day. Virtually all brushes and lambswool applicators I used had to be thrown away afterwards. The only thing that cleans this stuff up is the 7008 Reducer at around $50 per 4 liters. (You need it). I had about 5 liters in each drum (part A and B) left after the job (I.e. 10 liters of mixec product). Unfortunately part B is useless as it has to be thrown away if you're not looking to use it again within around 3 months.  
I did a lot of reasearch on this before I chose the Wattyl 7008. It seems to be highly recommended all around. Most comments were based on the fact that it is a very "hard" and tough finish which has excellent chemical resistance. But keep in mind that this "hard" finish may not be the best option for soft floors, (e.g. pine boards). 
Hope this helps.

----------


## Dusty

> I used the Wattyl 7008 on my floors and the final result was very good. The finish is hard wearing and looks great. 
> HOWEVER, there are a few things here to consider. 
> 1. One big put-off on this product is that it cannot be re-coated. If down the track (say in 5-10 years) you want to get rid of those pesky scratches in your floor, you cannot give the floor a light sand and re-coat, as you can do with other products. Instead, you have to sand back down to bare timber and do it again. This is the only reason why I would not use it again. I spoke with Wattyl technical support and they did confirm this.  *This here is a real tricky issue. The problem is...you the home owner can't re-coat this product, whereas, professional floor sanders can, and, do re-coat this (and other) two pac polyurethane's on a regular basis. The simple difference being.., that the average home owner doesn't own the equipment required to perform the sort of cut back needed to successfully re-coat this product. So, rather than have people doing a half arsed job of a re-coat Wattyl advize against it, this stops them (Wattyl) from being held responsible if the new coating de-laminates. On the other hand, if I do a re-coat and it goes pear shaped it's on my head and therefore, once again, Wattyl won't be at fault. So, it can be done, but if ya mess it up, you're on your own.*   
> 2. It is much more expensive than other options. I bought 2x 20 litre drums (part A and B) for around $700 from Bunnies. I could have bought other products for half that price.   *Yes, you're right, it is dear, for you. We, trade contractors, only pay $280 inc GST for 40 litres of this product. Big difference, yes.
> However, the good thing is Bunnings and the like sell this product in various sizes from 250 mls, 500 mls, 1 litre, 4 litre and 20 litre drums. Given that there are that many size options there is really no reason to buy any more than is necessary for your particular job. I'd bank on needing 10 to 12 square metres per litre.* 
> 3. It is difficult to clean, requires mixing, and part B goes "off" after about 3 months of opening the Tin. I knew about this in advance but at the time it did not bother me. But when it came time to doing the job I had the problem where I had to mix more-or-less exact amounts for each coat because what was left over could not be stored and used the next day. Virtually all brushes and lambswool applicators I used had to be thrown away afterwards. The only thing that cleans this stuff up is the 7008 Reducer at around $50 per 4 liters. (You need it). I had about 5 liters in each drum (part A and B) left after the job (I.e. 10 liters of mixec product). Unfortunately part B is useless as it has to be thrown away if you're not looking to use it again within around 3 months.   *Forget the reducer you won't require it. Just simply buy three cheap brushes (one for each coat) and toss them after each application. Same applies with the rollers. You should be able to do three coats for less than $25 worth of coating hardware.* 
> I did a lot of reasearch on this before I chose the Wattyl 7008. It seems to be highly recommended all around. Most comments were based on the fact that it is a very "hard" and tough finish which has excellent chemical resistance. But keep in mind that this "hard" finish may not be the best option for soft floors, (e.g. pine boards).  *As I use this product every week I more than recommend that it be coated over the softer timbers such as Radiata Pine. I could be wrong, but to my way of thinking, the soft wood requires the hardest finish possible if it's gonna survive the rigores of the average household.* 
> Hope this helps.

  Anyway, that's all just an opinion I've formed over the years. Probably wrong, but, maybe right. :Wink:

----------


## Gooner

Heyya Dusty. Just out of interest sake, what would I have to do to sand back the 7008 for a re-coat? Would you recommend using 7008 over pre-existing 7008?  
Regarding using the cheap throw-away brushes, is this really a good idea? Cheap brushes and rollers always tend to loose bristles or leave "fluff" stuck on the finish, especially if they are new. I personally would much rather buy a good applicator, soak it in the reducer, and use it again for subsequent coats. Also, the brushes may not be the only thing you need to clean. I spilt some on my (non-timber) floor, spashed some up aginst tiles, and used it to get the stuff off my hands. 
Lastly, regarding the soft floors, this is something that once again Wattyl tech support spoke to me about. They advised that if I had soft floorboard (which I do not) that it would be better to use another product. I don't remember exactly what they recommended, but it was something that they said would "flex" better if something sharp or heavy is dropped on the floor. 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting your experience as a professional floor sander. Just relaying what was told to me.

----------


## Dusty

G'day, Gooner. 
OK, to sand back the 7008 for another coat we use sand screen discs which are a polymer plastic disc placed under a soft pad on our polishing/buffing machine. These discs put gazillions of fine scratches into the surface of the existing polyurethane. Along with these screen discs, I also use a maroon pad which is another fine abrasive pad which scratches the floors surface to an even finer degree. The whole idea of a decent cut back is to leave the floor looking almost opaque from the fine scratches we are putting into it. These fine scratches we have now put into the surface are what the next coat will adhere to. Without them, the new coat will simply de-laminate (peel off over time) 
Although, that all sounds simple enough on paper (or high-def screen) in real terms its quite a bit of work and if it's done poorly the floor will give you grief later down the track. 
So, why do Wattyl tell you it can't be done? Simple. On the cans it says a light sand is required between coats, which all sounds pretty straight forward, but, most peoples idea of a light sand and what our idea of a light sand is, is two separate issues. 
The truth is, without a buffing machine to make light work of the amount of effort needed in cutting back a floor, the average home owner might start off in a blaze of glory but soon burns out after a few metres of trying to do it either by hand, or with an orbital sander. Pretty soon the home owner finds him/herself going "That'll do" after barely skimming the surface, and then begins getting into rolling the coat on just to be done with the job.
A few weeks/months later the coat begins to peel off in sections, looking like a bad sunburn victim. 
Next, the customer gets on the blower to Wattyl and says "Your product is faulty" To which the Wattyl rep will then reply "Oh, no, we don't recommend that you try and re-coat your floor, in fact, we say it can't be done". 
So, here we have the home owner, who has re-coated his floor, has done a lousy cut back due to lack of equipment and know how, the floor surface is now coming apart and all Wattyl has to do is advise you that it can't be done to save themselves from any responsibility. Pretty simple policy that saves Wattyl a lot of heart ache.  
They also have the very same policy towards staining floors prior to coating with 7008. Same thinking applies, the home owner sands his own floor, to him, it looks grouse, then he puts on the stain which shows up every single imperfection in the floor, he then puts on some 7008 thinking that will make things better, but it just looks worse. Once again, on the horn to Wattyl claiming that their stain and coating products are faulty. In the past Wattyl used to wear the cost of these muck ups and blokes like me would get paid by Wattyl to go in and re-sand & finish the bodgy jobs. This, of course, was costing the company money. So, new policy, "Wattyl does not recommend that you stain timber floors prior to coating with 7008". If you do stain the floor, despite their warnings, then stiff chit. You were warned. 
Now, back to the re-coat. Along with the severe cut back needed to prepare the floor for a new coat, the next step is to do a super, duper vacuum. Once again, how many home owners have a killer vacuum that is needed to remove the fine dust from the floor's surface? Not many, I'm sure. Any fine dust left on the floor's surface after the cut back not only ruins the look aesthetically, (dust particles) it also contributes greatly to the following coat not sticking to it properly, as the fine dust acts as a barrier between the old and new coatings. Once again causing de-lamination. 
Never really had an issue with using cheap brushes for cutting in the 7008. If, god forbid, a couple of bristles fall out just pick them out immediately you see them.
Here are a couple of links to some cut back floors I've done. Cut back on stained floor  Tasmanian Oak flooring On this one, scroll down the page till you see some where I'm rolling on the coat.  Check out how opaque the cut back surface is up close.

----------


## Gooner

Thanks Dusty. A while back I wrote a big long post about my floor sanding experience. (You posted to the thread yourself I believe). When I did it, I was crazy enough to sand between coats not using an orbital sander, but a mouse sander! Took me a long time to sand between coats. I then vacuumed and went over the lot with a tack cloth. Proper machinery would have helped out alot. 
I actually hired a buffer and bought some screen and maroon scub pads. However I found the buffer exceedingly difficult to use. I don't know what I was doing wrong, but it would always get away from me and leave swirls in the floor. (I blame the machinery). In the end I opted for the little mouse sander, lots of patience and elbow grease. Lost lots of weight in the process. No peeling or adhesion issues... thank god. That would have been quite depressing. 
Nice pics BTW. Very nice looking floors. I'm glad to hear I can recoat the 7008 if need be. 
Another question for you, could you give me a ballpark price for re-coating a tassie oak floor, approx 100 sqm, with 7008? I assume it would be considerably less than doing it all from scratch. 
Thanks Dusty.

----------


## Dusty

Gooner.
Well, first up, using a buffer for the first time is nothing short of a daunting experience. In fact, it can take some people weeks to start to get the hang of it. 
I remember the effort you put into doing your floors, and to be truthful, I was very impressed with your endeavor. However, very few people have that much drive and so often leave things only done half arsed at best.  
You'd be looking at $8.00 per square metre for a full cut back and re-coat. I'd also promise to use decent, fairly pricey, brushes during the cutting in around the edges. :Biggrin:

----------


## Ashwood

M6sports, 
Different people will have different opinions. 
Mine is to go for water based polyurethane (I use the Cabots one, really good). A bit more expensive than equivalent turp based ones, but imho worth the difference. 
Why do I like it? It is easy to apply (use a lambswool pad at the end of a stick if you have a lot, otherwise just a large brush). It doesn't smell (my wife can't stand the smell of oil-based ones, which lingers for at least a week) nor does the vapour sting your eyes. It dries so quickly you can apply 3-4 coats in a day and open it to your family to walk on the next day! It's also hard wearing ... I've put mine down for almost a year now, and absolutely no signs of it complaining. 
Another view for you to consider. Good luck.

----------

