# Forum Home Renovation Tiling  Tiler wants $375 per metre square for backsplash

## reflexor

Hi, 
First time building. Need some urgent help/advice. 
Anyone know what is a reasonable labour charge to tile kitchen backsplash with 100x200 ceramic tiles - those common white ceramic ones you find in old bathrooms? 
New kitchen tiled with these Johnson & Johnson ceramic tiles (the same ones sold by Bunnings for 58 cents a piece) last week. Backsplash about 4m2. Tiles installed offset (see photo). 
Gave tilers some square 100mmx 100m white tiles (same Johnson ones) for a simple centrepiece.  Square pieces placed in diamond pattern and capped off with white ceramic capping. Total area for centrepiece 0.5m2. Bought and paid for the tiles and grout ourselves. Marked out everything for centrepiece ourselves. 
Today builder says we have to pay $1,500 for tiling labour alone. He says this is variation cost. 
With total area size, it means the tiler is charging $375/m2. :Shock:  
The material cost for the plain ceramic tiles is $27/m2. 
This means labour is 1,300% (13 times) the cost of the material. 
Tiler says this is the normal cost for laying those Johnson tiles in offset.  
Is this normal?  
Can builder charge this kind of variation cost without first letting us know tiler wants $375/metre2 for labour? 
Please help somebody. :Cry:

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## grandell

Hi, 
We just had our floor tiled and it was $40 s/m, and the tiler did an awesome job.  It was on timber as well which makes it more expensive. 
Good Luck

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## reflexor

> We just had our floor tiled and it was $40 s/m, and the tiler did an awesome job.  It was on timber as well which makes it more expensive.
>  Good Luck

  hi grandell,
what about your kitchen splashback? any idea?

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## Bedford

> Today builder says we have to pay $1,500 for tiling labour alone. He says this is variation cost

  As this is a variation cost, that would lead me to think it's not part of a fixed price contract, and therefore you wouldn't be bound to use the builders tiler. 
I would get a couple of independent quotes, and if suitable, tell the builder you will have them installed externally to the contract. 
The builder will already have costed the tiling into the original building price (to the specified level) so don't expect a discount here, but I think you'll save overall by getting your own tiler. 
ETA Sorry I just realised the tiling has been completed as per this post. http://www.renovateforum.com/f209/po...tml#post805919

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## ringtail

Ok, first things first. Did you sign a contract ? If you havent then builder is breaking the law. What does the contract say  in the prime costs and provisional sums section . The cost of the tiling is easily estimated and since you have provided the materials the builder would only have to come up with a labour only price on the contract. This is not a variation, unless you have changed the type/style/area/pattern of the tiles to what the builder originally quoted on. If you have signed a contract that includes the cost of tiling, you must pay it. If on the other hand, the builder is now saying the cost of the tiling was not included in the quote ( check contract) tell him to jam it, and get your own tiler. 
top tilers charge no more than 50 / hr and thats to lay large format rectified edge floor tiles where the finish is critical. Tiler should be able to knock your job over in a day or day and a half - total price around the 600 mark.

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## reflexor

bedford: g'day mate. we meet again. yep, tiler already gone and done the job and now builder is sticking us with the bill.  :Cry:  
ringtail: according to contract, builder was to give us 600 x 300 porcelain tiles for kitchen wall. which was crazy cos our kitchen is traditional. spoke to project manager aeons ago and told him we just wanted simple ceramic white tiles, those old 100x 200 type. even mailed him a photo with exact tile required. project manager says OK. we told him we'd get ones within the $38/m2 allowance. manager says OK. 
 asked builder if OK to include centrepiece and to let us know if there's cost. says OK. no word about cost increase. last week sent tiler in to do the job. yesterday, builder said tiler wants $1,500 for cost of centrepiece alone. spoke to tiler, tiler says $1,500 labour charge for whole job. says it's harder to install 100x200mm ceramic tiles than large 600 x 300 porcelain tiles. 
dunno who/what to believe now. only know in own guts $1,500 labour for 4m2  backsplash is cut-throat.  
yesterday builder also said will charge variation cost on concrete walkway. despite telling us one year ago no variation cost to concrete walkway. despite meeting last month agreeing no variation cost on walkway. head is spinning. so frustrated.  
terrified builder will stall works if we don't agree to pay. he's threaten to previously. project already 65 weeks late. don't understand why builder keeps going back on his word, why keeps making mistakes, why reluctant to correct mistakes, why charging us variation costs without first consulting us and allowing us to agree with it, why making variations in first place without asking us (stormwater pipes inside our garage being the latest one).  :Cry:

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## watson

Are you dealing with the "Dodgy Brothers"??
Might be time to get some help from the relevant authorities.

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## reflexor

> Are you dealing with the "Dodgy Brothers"??
> Might be time to get some help from the relevant authorities.

  builder says if we contact authorities, project will suffer massive more delay and we'll regret it.  :Cry:

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## watson

> builder says if we contact authorities, project will suffer massive more delay and we'll regret it.

  That sounds like a threat to me  :Eek:  
Hang on and I'll do a bit of thread manipulation to get advice from members with experience. .....It'll take me a while...so don't think I've forgotten you.

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## reflexor

thanks, mate. appreciate it.

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## watson

There's now a "Help Required" post in ANNOUNCEMENTS, and I'll follow up as soon as I get back from Town.   *Edited Post*
The post in ANNOUNCEMENTS contains advice already: http://www.renovateforum.com/f186/he...50/#post805943

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## reflexor

rang three tilers this morning. this is what I got: 
Tiler A :
wants piecemeal: $400 for the whole job plus $100 extra to do the 0.5m centrepiece in diamond using 100 x100mm tiles with capping trim to form a rectangle.
says he can do work over two days, half a day to lay tiles+grout on Day 1 and another half a day for grout/clean off on Day 2. 
Tiler B: 
$40 per metre square for the tiling. $300 for centrepiece. 
Tiler C:
$48 per metre square for the tiling and another $200 for the centrepiece. 
all three are phone quotes, and they all want cash. 
thus, labour cost according to three tilers are:
Tiler A: $400 + $100 = $500
Tiler B: $140 + $300 = $440
Tiler C: $192 + $200 = $492 
these guys fair dinkum or just tickling my ears? going by these quotes, it means my tiler by asking for $1,500 is charging $1,000 more than decent and fair price!  :Mad:  
am I getting this right or am I missing something?

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## watson

> There's now a "Help Required" post in ANNOUNCEMENTS, and I'll follow up as soon as I get back from Town.   *Edited Post*
> The post in ANNOUNCEMENTS contains advice already: http://www.renovateforum.com/f186/he...50/#post805943

  Looks like some phone calls to the authorities are required.

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## Bedford

> Looks like some phone calls to the authorities are required.

  And don't forget to show them your badge. :Wink:

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## Terrian

> builder says if we contact authorities, project will suffer massive more delay and we'll regret it.

  builder making threats, sounds like a winner to me.

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## commodorenut

> all three are phone quotes, and they all want cash. 
> thus, labour cost according to three tilers are:
> Tiler A: $400 + $100 = $500
> Tiler B: $140 + $300 = $440
> Tiler C: $192 + $200 = $492 
> these guys fair dinkum or just tickling my ears?

  I'd like to play devil's advocate here, to prove another point. 
Even if they were giving you a receipt for the works, the additional cost would still be well below the $1500 figure. 
People think cash gets a simple "no GST" discount of  10%, which is usually the case (saves the tradie the GST hassles etc) - but in reality he's saving the income tax component of his labour as well. 
Considering this job is just his labour - you are supplying all the materials - then the $500 labour price would have to be at least $800-900 before he pays out the GST and the income tax components of the work. 
But - this is my point, even if the tiler wanted a clear $500 profit for himself, and honestly paid all his due taxes, the job is still worth less than $1000 
I'd say take up the advice offered to you about the building commission, and check all your contracts carefully to make sure you can't be held liable for this ridiculous cost.

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## reflexor

thanks, guys. one last question before i get outta your hair. 
insulation man came in to put in glasswool batts. we paid extra to get r.5 batts. but saw insulation man hauling in r.3.5 batts which are marked with a small white sticker saying they are r.4.0.  
when queried, insulation man says he's putting down 2 layers of 'r.4.0' so we're in fact getting r.8.0 insulation. 
asked why are batts in packaging labelled r.3.5 then.  
explanation given: China has different standards. certified r.3.5 according to Chinese authorities but when arrive in Oz, Oz authorities tested and certified batts r.4. 
the small sticker is white about 1cm x 2cm with only the words 'r.4.0' on it. there is no stamp by any Oz authorities. 
does this sound dodgy to you? is it OK to put down 2 layers of lower rated batts to achieve r.5.0? 
asked for certification to prove this 2 days ago. insulation man says will send immediately. still nothing. 
again no consent or instruction by us to make this variation. :Cry:

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## Castaway

You may get better use out of your bulider as backfill or something other than doing the job of building your house. :Doh:  
Good luck with it all.

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## reflexor

thanks, castaway.  
this is what we mean about the batts:

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## Bedford

> explanation given: China has different standards. certified r.3.5 according to Chinese authorities but when arrive in Oz, Oz authorities tested and certified batts r.4. 
> the small sticker is white about 1cm x 2cm with only the words 'r.4.0' on it. there is no stamp by any Oz authorities. 
> does this sound dodgy to you?

  Not really, the bag states it complies to Australian standards.   

> is it OK to put down 2 layers of lower rated batts to achieve r.5.0?

   Not sure on this, others here would know more than me, but I would think so.   

> again no consent or instruction by us to make this variation.

   It's not really a variation to the contract, it's just another way of achieving a result that is equal or better than specified.

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## multiblade

The tiling quote is too much. Is the tiler really believing it should be that much extra, or has the builder spoon fed him to say that so he can make a little cream on the vary's? 
Was it one tiler working by himself?
How long did it take? 
If it was one tiler, and he took his time, and he tiled in one day, and then came back and grouted another day, you would be looking at 12 hours. It is accepted practice to charge a half day minimum for tiling, even if it only took 2-3 hours. There are reasons for this.
12 hours at 45 $540+gst = 594
At $50/hour it would be = $660 
Often tilers only work in pairs or tiler and offsider.
This would  be either two half days or 1 whole day.
at $45/hour it would = 792 inc gst
At $50/hour it would = $880 inc gst.
Probably less as it would be one tiler and one skilled labourer a little cheaper. 
Two tilers actually can work out just as cheap as one on larger jobs.  
Now you need to remember the contract included 600*300 tiles.
These would be a lot quicker but would still be a deduction on the variation for the contracted work but could be around half of these values.
So even the $880 quote, i would not be too p!ssed of about, when u take into account the deduction on the contracted tile laying which at half of the variation addition would bring the total to $440. Also deducted the grout say $20 as he would have had to supply grout under the contract. 
So now you are looking at $420 variation including gst plus I would expect builders margin under the contract of around 15% normally.. 
The total the builder could expect to submit as a variation and this is being pretty generous to him is $483. 
Now I should say I dont agree he is breaking the law, requesting a variation. 
HE IS NOT BREAKING THE LAW. Most contacts, Australian stand version, MBA version, and the HIA version allow for these circumstances, because simply the projects always change from the contracted works. Every project has variations, they can and often do reach up to even 20-25% over the original quoted works. 
This is because of latent conditions and client (you) driven variations. Most variations are actually client driven. 
The funny thing is that the builder in this case is an @sshole for doing this and he is also an idiot, because you have NO OBLIGATION TO PAY, if i understand your situation and communications correctly.  
The reason, is that under the contract he is entitled to request a variation but this needs to be done before the work proceeds.  
If he just goes ahead and does the work, without informing you in writing that there will be a variation, unless you replied in writing to just go ahead and proceed without waiting for a variation amount to be approved, you dont need to pay. 
It sometimes happens that he may have to go ahead without being able to get in contact and get written approval prior, and when this happens it is totally legal for him to submit a vary, and have you consider it OUT OF THE KINDNESS OF YOUR HEART. 
I personally would in writing give him a breakdown of your reasoning as above, 
I would also request in writing for him consider your reasoning and respectfully suggest that he resubmit the variation at what you consider to be a generous and to the best of your understanding a correct amount of $483 and leave it at that or show you a reasoned written breakdown of how they justify $1500 as  per the labour involved. 
(This amount included 15% builders margin, check your contract it may be as low as 10 or as high as 20)
If he agrees verbally or in writing, dont pay a cent until you receive the amended variation. 
If you have a 'contract administrator' obviously CC your communication to them, and actually insist ALL communication is via the contract administrator. 
I suspect you dont as this is unlikely to have arisen if you had one.
Even if you dont, if you previously had one, or an independant project manager, or even possibly the architect that drew the plans, I would consider CC'ing the communication to them. Peer pressure or the impression of peer pressure, can work wonders, without having to resort to reporting it to the department of fair trading. 
If you can avoid going to them, great._ 
Find out if you can, if he is a member of HIA or MBA or their equivalent and you might try suggesting, that while you have requested advice from Fair Trading, you have not at this stage, reported the matter officially, and in the interests of achieving a suitable and peaceful resolution you may cc the matter to HIA or MBA etc._ *(the bit in itallics is probably useless, ignore it) 
Instead, contact a reputable tiler, send them a photo showing the feature tiles, and give exact measurements, and ask if they are willing to give a written quote. Maybe a tiler who visits here may be willing to do that. If the written quote supports your opinion, include it with your written response. Explain to the reputable tiler, about the need to quote for the deduction of 600x300 tiling, and for supply of grout.* 
They probably wont even read the damn email but he doesnt know that.
If you are lucky enough to get through to either of these organisations, whilst they wont get involved, have no real power and are out to support the builder, it may  (or may not) actually help.
Better still, if you have a lawyer mate who will do a freebie letter in exchange for dinner and the drinks of his or her choice, get them to write the love letter.
Best of Luck 
err sorry, you can see i have had too much to drink

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## jiggy

For that price i could fly down stay the night at a hotel fly back up and still make a profit!!

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## julescar

Hi
I've just finished obtaining quotes for a similar splashback on a home that I am renovating in Perth. My splashback is 9 metres x 2 metres and the tiler (who is absolutely fantastic and has done a superb job of three bathrooms, entrance and outdoor area) quoted $50 hr +GST and said it would take approximately 2 days. As I do not know how to "mark out" a job this was included in the price hence $880 for the total job. he did say that it could cost up to $1000 because of the time required to configure the tiles etc. I spoke to him today and mentioned your post and he said that the only time he would charge $300 + square metre would be if he had to do mosaic work or intricate patterns and that he would always obatin a signed quote from the home owner (not the builder!) before he commenced the work. 
Best of luck

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## Dan574

As watson said above, I think its time you contact someone and filled in the pdf below.  http://www.consumer.vic.gov.au

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## reflexor

> The tiling quote is too much. Is the tiler really believing it should be that much extra, or has the builder spoon fed him to say that so he can make a little cream on the vary's? 
> Was it one tiler working by himself?
> How long did it take? 
> If it was one tiler, and he took his time, and he tiled in one day, and then came back and grouted another day, you would be looking at 12 hours. It is accepted practice to charge a half day minimum for tiling, even if it only took 2-3 hours. There are reasons for this.
> 12 hours at 45 $540+gst = 594
> At $50/hour it would be = $660 
> Often tilers only work in pairs or tiler and offsider.
> This would  be either two half days or 1 whole day.
> at $45/hour it would = 792 inc gst
> ...

  multiblade:  thanks for the maths, mate. appreciate it. getting more clarity now. we're told three expert tilers (no apprentices or hacks) worked on the backsplash for 2 full days. they're charging $1,500 for 3 x 8 manhours, i.e. 24 manhours for their expertise. so here's our math. these experts took 24 manhours to tile and grout 4m2. That's a rate of 1m per 6 hours.  :Doh:  
question: is laying 100*200mm tiles more complicated than 600*300 tiles for a backsplash? we had thought it'd be easier since the small tiles were ceramic, very easy to cut, very forgiving even if out of line. unlike the 600*300 which was porcelain and very heavy and difficult to mount on a vertical space. or have we got our info backwards?

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## reflexor

> As watson said above, I think its time you contact someone and filled in the pdf below.  Consumer Affairs Victoria

  thanks, dan574. looking at form. where to start? so many things wrong.  :Doh:

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## reflexor

> Hi
> I've just finished obtaining quotes for a similar splashback on a home that I am renovating in Perth. My splashback is 9 metres x 2 metres and the tiler (who is absolutely fantastic and has done a superb job of three bathrooms, entrance and outdoor area) quoted $50 hr +GST and said it would take approximately 2 days. As I do not know how to "mark out" a job this was included in the price hence $880 for the total job. he did say that it could cost up to $1000 because of the time required to configure the tiles etc. I spoke to him today and mentioned your post and he said that the only time he would charge $300 + square metre would be if he had to do mosaic work or intricate patterns and that he would always obatin a signed quote from the home owner (not the builder!) before he commenced the work. 
> Best of luck

  thanks for info, julescar. got two more quotes last night.
fourth tiler says $250+GST for 4m2, without centrepiece.
fifth tiler says $300+GST for 4m2, without centrepiece.
both men will get back to us today with quote for centrepiece. 
so going by these latest quotes, our simple white common ceramic-tile centrepiece works out to $1,500 minus whatever the tiler wants for the rest of the section, which in this case is $1,200 or $1,250.  :Cry:

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## Kanga

> Hi, 
> First time building. Need some urgent help/advice. 
> Anyone know what is a reasonable labour charge to tile kitchen backsplash with 100x200 ceramic tiles - those common white ceramic ones you find in old bathrooms? 
> New kitchen tiled with these Johnson & Johnson ceramic tiles (the same ones sold by Bunnings for 58 cents a piece) last week. Backsplash about 4m2. Tiles installed offset (see photo). 
> Gave tilers some square 100mmx 100m white tiles (same Johnson ones) for a simple centrepiece. Square pieces placed in diamond pattern and capped off with white ceramic capping. Total area for centrepiece 0.5m2. Bought and paid for the tiles and grout ourselves. Marked out everything for centrepiece ourselves. 
> Today builder says we have to pay $1,500 for tiling labour alone. He says this is variation cost. 
> With total area size, it means the tiler is charging $375/m2. 
> The material cost for the plain ceramic tiles is $27/m2. 
> This means labour is 1,300% (13 times) the cost of the material. 
> ...

  Its the builder charging you the $1500 not the tiler, the difference is the builders mark up

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## reflexor

> Its the builder charging you the $1500 not the tiler, the difference is the builders mark up

  what builder said word-for-word: 'the tilers are charging me $1,500 for the centrepiece and i'm passing you the cost.' 
for the centrepiece??? :Mad:  
then we talked to one of the tilers and he said they're charging $1,500 for 'the entire splashback.'  
an episode of twilight zone is less harrowing and confusing.  :Cry:

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## PhilT2

As far as I know when two insulation batts are laid on top of one another then it is legit to add the R values together: two R3.5 batts together equals R7. There are two ways insulation is measured, one is the R rating of the material alone and one is the R rating of all the material in the structure. A builder may use a combination of an anti- condensation blanket directly under the roof sheets with a R1 rating along with ceiling batts rated R2.5 to achieve a total R3.5 
One manufacturer was fined about a year ago for using the wrong number on their batts; I recall seeing the retraction notices they were forced to publish in the papers. I think that many parts of the world, the US at least, use a different method of calculating R values. So I believe the chinese manufacturers would test to an Aussie standard for the stuff they sell here. But as long as you have at least one full batt with half of one on top of it you have the required R value. 
Seems to me you've been more than fair with this bloke so far. How far over schedule did you say it was?

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## multiblade

In writing, advise him you are completely willing and happy to have fair trading sort it out,  and you think its probably a good idea despite any time delays involved, and that you have prepared the paperwork to submit and that it will be submitted 3 days (or 5 or 7 etc, there may be an allowance for response times in the contract, if not just go with 3) unless you have received in writing an amended variation request for the amount you suggest as reasonable. 
Also remind / suggest to him, that these delays will be worse for him, as they involve taking him away from other jobs, to attend any meetings and arbitration required, and this time will allow you to more fully peruse the works and billing and contract, in the hoping of preventing any possible other errors from occuring. 
Also strongly suggest that you have spoken with the authorities, at this stage without lodging the complaint officially and understand it will be certainly found in your favour as you have no legal obligation to pay it under the contract. (if you can find the relevent part of the contract, quote it in your letter) 
Also respectifully remind him that while during the actual process of complaint and arbitration there is no detrimental notes on his builders licence, as soon as the complaint has been found in your favour and you suggest this will be fairly quick, there will be notes left against him, that will be visible for any potential customers doing a common licence check to see. 
Sum it up by saying  that any variation not presented correctly under the terms of the contract is only ever considered for payment out of the kindness of your heart, and out of this kindness, and in the interests of avoiding dispute, you are willing to consider a payment being for $xyz amount. 
This amount will be paid 7 days from receipt of an ammended variation for this amount, along with a covering letter from him, agreeing that this settles the matter to mutual satisfaction. 
And lastly remind him again he needs to submit this before the (3,5,7 see above) days are over and the complaint has been officially lodged. 
cheers

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## Bedford

> what builder said word-for-word: 'the tilers are charging me $1,500 for the centrepiece and i'm passing you the cost.'

  You need to find out from the relevant authority if the additional costs of any variation, to the existing contract, need to be in writing, (*and agreed to* ) before the work is done, and who is responsible for the cost if the builder has not done this? 
The fact that you, and the rest of us, are in shock at the price indicates to me that no agreement was in place before the extra tiling was done.

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## reflexor

> Seems to me you've been more than fair with this bloke so far. How far over schedule did you say it was?

  hi PhilT2. thanks for info. queried about batts because was asked to pay a lot more extra for r.5 batts at the beginning of our contract.   
over schedule by 64 weeks now. builder keeps changing things w/o letting us know. says it's common practice in the industry. he thinks it's our fault for being inflexible and not adapting. thinks by querying him why isn't he following the contract is not showing trust. have been scolded over and over for 'not trusting.'  
first time building after saving up for nearly 11 years. family shocked and traumatized by the process so far.  
on top of everything, this week just discovered ceiling height is 2300, instead of 2400. so can't put in fan, not w/o cutting off somebody's head. told builder. builder replied: just cut the rod to fit. told him fan-seller advised not to do this cos this will void warranty. builder no reply.  
are we entitled to ask builder to pay us variation cost/ compensation for wrong ceiling height? how does one calculate how much a lower ceiling costs? do you know?

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## multiblade

Bedford, they probably just need to read the contract. Any authority will need to read the contract to come to the same conclusion. Im not saying taking it to the authorities isnt a good idea but read the contract and be very familiar with it. This will be VERY helpful, regardless if you are then talking to the relevent authorities or to the builder, or taking it to a lawyer, and paying him a couple of hundred bucks to read the contract also. :Smilie:  
They can look confusing at first glance, but read them like a novel from front to back firstly, without trying to take it in. 
Then re-read it again, more carefully. 
By now you will be completely able to find and read anal retentively what is relevant in this issue, and be able to understand it and quote it as required. . :Biggrin: 
Sometimes I admit, they can be ambiguous, but if it is still seeming ambiguous after making yourself comepletely familiar with the contract, then it is probably just an item that is badly written and IS ACTUALLY a little ambiguous and open to interpretation.
When this happens even your lawyer, (were you to get one involved) would struggle a little. 
On a side issue, if you ever get a lawyer involved in any issue, proof read all communications they write, before they are allowed to forward them on, as they often, make errors, even errors of law, in their communications. When you point them out, they usually just shrug and go sure, we'll fix that and send it off.

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## Bedford

> on top of everything, this week just discovered ceiling height is 2300, instead of 2400.

  _Ship!_ To the best of my knowledge the minimum legal ceiling height is 2400mm.   

> are we entitled to ask builder to pay us variation cost/ compensation for wrong ceiling height? how does one calculate how much a lower ceiling costs? do you know?

   Monday Morning ........the building Commission for you.

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## reflexor

multiblade, bedford, watson, ringtail, all you guys responding here right now: thanks a lot for continuing to respond with info and help. you folks are  :2thumbsup:  (wifey about to cry right now. she's very touched by all your advice and support.) ok, will get cracking on what needs to be done. THANK YOU ALL, bottom of my heart thank you!

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## multiblade

This builder is an @sshole lol
If you want to play hardball, then just add it to the compaint to the authorities, and they will very likely make him change the ceiling height. 
If this cant be done without absolutely change major structural works then they would organise something.
Having said that, I would look at other models of fan or just cut it down, regardless of the warranty.

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## multiblade

> _Ship!_ To the best of my knowledge the minimum legal ceiling height is 2400mm. 
>  Monday Morning ........the building Commission for you.

  
Pretty sure bedford is right with the first, but havent ever checked, dont do work at those heights and I am now  pretty much in agreement with his second comment.  
Also you mentioned heaps of things he has changed. What are they?
Start a list up right now. 
Start a list and record of all your WRITTEN communciations regarding these issues. Record the memories of your verbal communications for ur own reference more than anything, the written ones are the ones that count. 
Take a look at all the variations he has submitted, some will definately be legimate, but i would guess he has gouged you on more than one.

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## jago

> hi PhilT2. thanks for info. queried about batts because was asked to pay a lot more extra for r.5 batts at the beginning of our contract.

  Not sure about R5 and the cost benefits; 
You also need to consider the law of diminshing returns with batts ... 
R2 to R4 is only 2% better in terms % of heat transfered. 
CSIRO "it is better to consider all of the heat paths in a building rather than to insulate one heavily" http://www.renovateforum.com/f193/go...-rebate-91871/ see post 11 for the information I found  about r ratings. I've been called wrong but this is a Senate Inquiry.      

> over schedule by 64 weeks now. builder keeps changing things w/o letting  us know. says it's common practice in the industry. he thinks it's our  fault for being inflexible and not adapting. thinks by querying him why  isn't he following the contract is not showing trust. have been scolded  over and over for 'not trusting.'

  64 weeks over ....WTF, I would find yourself an independant Surveyor and get them to do an audit of works completed ....as an ex financier I used to do this when there was disputes over payments with builders.     

> on top of everything, this week just discovered ceiling height is 2300,  instead of 2400. so can't put in fan, not w/o cutting off somebody's  head. told builder. builder replied: just cut the rod to fit. told him  fan-seller advised not to do this cos this will void warranty. builder  no reply.

  Sorry this just gets worse, if this is meant to be a habitable room then it's not to code 2400mm is minimum I would seriously get enagage a surveyor and lawyer. 
Has any of this build been inspected council or private?

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## reflexor

multiblade, bedford, jago: 
whoa, guys! the rooms height are OK, just the garage height. stipulated in contract garage ceiling at 2400mm because it gets hot in there with workshop activities during summer. fan is to cool things down because sometimes work inside garage for four or five hours at a stretch. (remember the stormwater pipe fiasco? why we got mad about the pipes in between electricals on that back wall meant for workshop bench and why engineered retaining wall punctured?)  
if not mistaken, garage considered 'non-habitable room' with minimum 2100 by law. so builder not worried not giving 2400mm even though we've been asked to pay more for it in contract. 
only thing now is how to estimate cost difference between 2400mm and 2300mm ceiling (2300 is estimate, shortfall may be more than that. must measure exact shortfall this weekend to confirm), and whether we have a right to seek variation cost. 
since builder isn't breaking the law, he can just blow it off as 'an adjustment' he has to make to get the job done. can easily rationalize it as a technical/ structural/engineering decision.

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## Gaza

who is the superindent for the owner, the architect or an indepent person, if you are doing this yourself as a home owner it is very hard as to have a realtionship with the builder as the cilent and the PM. 
as far as the cost issue, it is not possible for 3 tilers to work on the back splash at once. 
get a copy of buidling cost guide and use these rates to asses the varaition and pay it.  this is a reconised method by courts to value disputed claims. 
by getting a whole heap of phone quotes from other trades over the phone is doing nothing more than  making you mad and wasting honest trades time, you can not go to court with out a written quote from a tradesmen who has seen the job, no one i know will give you a quote for you to fight a builder with as they are going to get nothing out of it.

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## ringtail

Yep 2400 for a habitable room. You can have a certain % of the room below 2400 to box in beams etc... but 2300 for the whole room is a massive no no that certainly wont pass inspection. Check your plans. 
Regarding the variations ( still ), unless the builder ( term used loosely) writes his own contracts ( which must be approved for use) he will be using a std  contract from the building authority of similiar- all of which come with a customer info booklet that explains everthing in great detail. If he did not give this to you he has broken the law. The contract pack also comes with at least 3 variation forms that state the reason for the variation, who has requested it etc... bottom line is all bulding industry contracts have to conform to the same standard and all variations MUST be in writing and signed by both parties

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## reflexor

> as far as the cost issue, it is not possible for 3 tilers to work on the back splash at once. 
> get a copy of buidling cost guide and use these rates to asses the varaition and pay it.  this is a reconised method by courts to value disputed claims. 
> by getting a whole heap of phone quotes from other trades over the phone is doing nothing more than  making you mad and wasting honest trades time, you can not go to court with out a written quote from a tradesmen who has seen the job, no one i know will give you a quote for you to fight a builder with as they are going to get nothing out of it.

  tiler says all three guys worked on backsplash for two days. they insist it's that time-consuming and labour-intensive, hence $1,500. shocked us cos that's the same kind of tiling we had in our old house, in kitchen and bathroom, and our old house is very old and small indeed. so no expensive tiling used then. and we figured to stick to the same this time, plain white ceramic tiles from Bunnings, only added a 0.5m2 centrepiece to break monotony. 
received two written quotes already, mate. but your building cost guide advice makes complete sense. looking for one now. dunno where to find it. apologies for ignorance. first time building.

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## Dr Freud

> builder says if we contact authorities, project will suffer massive more delay and we'll regret it.

  Very old intimidation technique. 
He needs his licence to earn money so he can keep his house too.  :2thumbsup:  
Bullies are cowards, set your mind and your heart, then tear him a new one.  :Mad:

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## reflexor

> Regarding the variations ( still ), unless the builder ( term used loosely) writes his own contracts ( which must be approved for use) he will be using a std  contract from the building authority of similiar- all of which come with a customer info booklet that explains everthing in great detail. If he did not give this to you he has broken the law. The contract pack also comes with at least 3 variation forms that state the reason for the variation, who has requested it etc... bottom line is all bulding industry contracts have to conform to the same standard and all variations MUST be in writing and signed by both parties

  anybody here be so kind as to post a picture of these variation forms? does it always come in three? 
the only variation document we've seen is one generated by the builder. it resembles an invoice. the kind you get from a shop when you buy a tap. item description on one side, price on the other. at bottom, a dotted line for our signature. that's it. it doesn't state who requested the variation nor reasons. builder doesn't sign on it as well, just us.

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## reflexor

> by getting a whole heap of phone quotes from other trades over the phone is doing nothing more than  making you mad and wasting honest trades time....

  p.s.
ain't wasting honest trades' time, gaza. still have 110m2 of floor that needs tiling when house is handed over. am going to use this exercise to weed out the cut-throats. any trade who's honest, upfront and decent with us on the backsplash issue, that's the man we're gonna give our floor tiling job to. and you can be darned sure it ain't gonna be any man charging $375/m2 taking 24 manhours to do 4m2 of surface.  :Mad:

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## watson

Now its really, really time to contact the Building commission.
This is getting worse and worserer. 
Here is the contact site;  Building Commission Vic. http://www.buildingcommission.com.au...-home-page.asp 
They have all the info you need, without getting more opinions from the forum members, which may, or may not be correct. 
Hope it all works out.

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## ringtail

This is the standard Qld building services authority variation form. Other contracts may be different.  scan - variation form.pdf

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## Bedford

Thanks Ringtail, I'm sure there would be similar for Vic. 
Reflexor, Did the builder present you with a form like Ringtail posted? and did you sign it before the extra tiling was done?

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## reflexor

thanks, ringtail. 
no, bedford, i didn't get such a form nor sign one before tiling was done. in fact, have never seen anything that resembles this form. where do i get such a form? from the building commission? as a house-owner am i required by law to get these forms and present them to the builder each time he makes a variation? am i in trouble for not following procedure?  :Cry:

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## Bedford

> i didn't get such a form nor sign one before tiling was done.

   Good, the builder should have sorted this and had you sign your agreement to any additional cost before any extra tiling was done.   

> in fact, have never seen anything that resembles this form. where do i get such a form? from the building commission?

   The builder provides it if he wants more money for varying the contract....which he has failed to do.   

> as a house-owner am i required by law to get these forms and present them to the builder each time he makes a variation?

   I don't think you are required by law, but it puts onto paper any changes and costs so everyone is clear in order to help prevent the troubles you've been having.    

> am i in trouble for not following procedure?

   No,......it just gets untidy until it's sorted. 
You are well armed now, I suggest you forget about it until Monday (have a quiet day with family) and then contact the Building Commission and seek their advice, Good luck. :Smilie:

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## watson

:What he said:

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## ringtail

No probs. 100 % builders' responsibilty to provide you with the variation form with all details filled out, go right through it with you, change things to satisfy both parties,initial changes, then you both sign and date. Witness never hurts either.

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## watson

and  :What he said:  too

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## Antonitz

> Hi
> I've just finished obtaining quotes for a similar splashback on a home that I am renovating in Perth. My splashback is 9 metres x 2 metres and the tiler (who is absolutely fantastic and has done a superb job of three bathrooms, entrance and outdoor area) quoted $50 hr +GST and said it would take approximately 2 days. As I do not know how to "mark out" a job this was included in the price hence $880 for the total job. he did say that it could cost up to $1000 because of the time required to configure the tiles etc. I spoke to him today and mentioned your post and he said that the only time he would charge $300 + square metre would be if he had to do mosaic work or intricate patterns and that he would always obatin a signed quote from the home owner (not the builder!) before he commenced the work. 
> Best of luck

  Hi Julescar, 
Just found this forum. Am in process of laundry reno in Perth, and would be interested in finding some reasonable tilers. 
The 2 quotes I have got for screeding,and laying approx 5m of floor and approx 3 m of wall tiles are around $1200, which to me seem a bit over the top as it works out around $100 / metre. 
any help with names would be appreciated. I am in the Morley area in Perth. 
Many thanks

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