# Forum Home Renovation Lighting  Replacing a ceiling light fitting

## jadr76

Hi All, 
I am try to change an Australian ceiling light fitting. My normal experience is to have red, black and earth wires coming from the ceiling, which I connect, respectively, to brown, blue and earthwire. But the light I am trying change has 1 x red wire, 1 x black wire, 1 x earth wire and 1 x white wire. Any suggestions on what i should do with the white wire? 
Thanks!
JR

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## Bruiser

1 red or 2? If you're replacing like for like, it should be simple - anything you're not mentioning?

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## jadr76

Thanks for the reply. 
 Coming out of the ceiling is two white cables. One white cable has a red, a black and green wire coming out of it. The other white cable has a red and white wire coming out of it. The two red wires coming from each cable are twisted together. 
 When I removed the original light fitting, there were four holes, with five wires coming out. That is the: 
 1 hole with the white wire coming out
 1 hole with two red wires coming out
 1 hole with one black wire coming out
 1 hole with the earth coming out 
 A very basic drawing of my wiring is below:   
 My new light fitting (a basic cheapo oyster fitting) has:
 1 hole that connects to a brown wire
 1 hole that connects to a blue wire
 1 hole that connects to a earth wire 
 Normally I would connect the following: 
 Brown wire to red wires
 Blue wire to red wire
 Earth wire to earth wire 
 Now, I don't know what to with the white wire. Unfortunately I can’t afford a sparky. 
 I have tried just not connecting the white wire, that is covering it up with a cap and insulation and then connecting the other wires as I would normally do. However, the light then stays on. 
 Any suggestions on what I should do with the white wire? 
 THANKS!

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## Bros

> Unfortunately I can’t afford a sparky.

  Pull the other one will you. A sparky will cost less the $100 as it is only a 10 minute job.  
I will give advise to people who I believe have some technical knowledge and just want background information but not for someone who will not get a professional in to do the job.

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## jadr76

Thanks for your help bro! I hope when you need help that you  also receive similar constructive feedback...

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## chrisp

> Brown wire to red wires
>  Blue wire to red wire
>  Earth wire to earth wire

  In a typical light, the connections would be:Brown wire to the WHITE wire,
blue wire to the BLACK wire,
Earth to Earth
The two reds go in to a keeper terminal - usually labelled 'loop' or simply a BP connector.  
Turn all the power OFF before touching anything - the Reds are unswitched actives and are alive even with the light off.

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## jadr76

Thanks for your help Chrisp. Yes I made a slight error with my clients. I should always remember that I beat my wife black and blue! 
I will give it a go tonight!

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## Bros

> Thanks for your help bro! I hope when you need help that you  also receive similar constructive feedback...

  Weather you like it or not there is a law in this country that requires all work done on an electrical installation to be done by an electrical worker. You obviously are not one of those.
To give advise and you act on it leaves those supplying advise open to the possibility of action taken. No one can hide on these forums as your IP address can be found and tracked back to the ISP who is obliged to advise the law who the person is. They catch pedophiles and they take extraordinary steps to hide themselves.
So as I said I will give advise in a general manner not to just not pay an electrician < $100.

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## Bruiser

I agree with Chrisp.  The red and white are the switch wires.  Do yourself a favour and try to understand the circuit, as well as turning the power off. 
I half agree with Bros, certainly as regards being entitled to that opinion.  You'll noticed that I circled with a question before answering.   
In the context of this forum, people are welcome to give whatever advice they please and suggesting that you call an electrician is not beyond the pale.

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## Handyjack

While the task of changing the light should be simple you have come across a problem. Out of curiosity does your light have more than one switch?  
I had a sparky look at my ceiling lights and he advised me that replacement parts were unavailable and that I would be able to change the fittings myself - only a few wires. Now the rules are that you need to be qualified to alter fixed wiring other wise you can not only void your insurance but end up in court and be fined thousands of dollars.
I bought new fittings and attached them to the ceiling myself, but I had a qualified electrician on site who had his apprentice do the disconnect and connect. And it was not the same one who suggested that I do it myself.
Yes it does cost a few $, but the rules are there to prevent injury and potential save a life (and probably to keep the electricians in work) and when something does not go to plan there is some one who should have the knowledge to make it right.

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## Master Splinter

The electrical licensing regime in Australia has no relevance to health/safety issues - if they were protecting the public, Australia would have the best electrical fatality record instead of a long record of being the worst.

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## Kevin_Baker

Basically what you've got is that the power is a direct feed from the board (the three cables), but you're breaking the active off and sending it down the two pair to the switch.  
To put it simply, the two red wires that were joined together need to be joined again and put in a blue point (cap and screw type connector). The white is your switched active, which goes into the brown cable. 
So -  
- red&red twisted together in a connector (the 4th hole they were in in the original light fitting is called the LOOP hole, it's just a way of connecting them and isn't connected to any of the other holes)
- black to the blue
- white to the brown
- earth to the earth. 
Obviously this is information only as you should be getting a sparky in  :Smilie: . Whenever you touch anything MAKE SURE the power is off (you're dealing with permanently on hot wires here). Stay safe, and don't do anything you're not comfortable with.

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## Bros

> The electrical licensing regime in Australia has no relevance to health/safety issues - if they were protecting the public, Australia would have the best electrical fatality record instead of a long record of being the worst.

  Can you point me in the direction of the statistics? 
The licensing is an attempt to achieve some standard if you let everyone loose you would have some terrible jobs. I had to fix up some appalling work by an amateur at my daughters place after she bought it. GPO not on RCD, interconnecting between two way switches 3 core flex.
If you want to zero in on licensing and it's irrelevance try the ACMA for installation of Comms cable and you will soon see how stupid some licensing is.
I am obviously biased but I believe the licensing should stay and it takes very little time to work out the knowledge a poster might have so I give advise accordingly.

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## BRADFORD

> The licensing is an attempt to achieve some standard if you let everyone loose you would have some terrible jobs.

  Even with licensing there are some terrible jobs, imagine what it would be like without it.  :Shock:

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## Bruiser

It's also fair to say that 'renovators' probably don't contribute to forums with a view to endorsing/complying with/enforcing licensing regulations. 
The really important regs tend to centre on people performing electrical work for money, which is sort of the opposite to renovating. 
I don't worry too much about big brother holding me to account for what I suggest in a forum - I'm entitled to assume that everybody complies with the law and I'm certainly not responsible for anybody else's actions.  An opinion is free, advice costs money...

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## denaria

lol we're being all nice and polite, aren't we? Love reading between the lines and seeing who's get hot under the collar on some subjects. Well stated all of you.

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## Bros

> Even with licensing there are some terrible jobs, imagine what it would be like without it.

  No argument from me.

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## iconnect

I hate to be a wowser here but electricity can and will kill. My advice would be not to risk doing the work yourself. Weigh up cost against consequence.
Although some of the advice given in previous posts sounds good a lot of it is based on assumptions (eg: main switch actually isolates correctly, polarity is correct throughout circuit, no solar back feed, earth continuity OK etc). If any one of these assumptions is wrong you or one of your family members could pay the ultimate penalty. Why take the risk?

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## chalkyt

Thumbs up, Darryn. Everyone in the game has come across "home made" nasties like switched neutrals, lights off the power circuit, connections wrapped in tape just flapping around, etc. With most questions you can get a good idea if the person is clued up or not. Chrisp's explanation was the obvious one which should have been evident to anyone with an idea of how places are generally wired. As Bruiser pointed out... try to understand the circuit, if you can't then don't touch. At least use a test lamp (not a volt stick) to find out what is live before you touch. 
Yes I know we can all be grumpy old buggers, but electricity is dangerous stuff both for the person working on it and the next one who comes along if it isn't safe.

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## chrisp

I suppose we are yet again re-entering our usual electrical debate on the forum. 
Some points to ponder....  Many other countries have LESS regulation and FEWER electrical fatalities;Many other countries allow DIY electrical work.NZ is a good example - same voltage, same standards, same fittings, less regulation (they allow DIY) and fewer fatalities (per head of population). 
Maybe have a look at this old thread for some figures http://www.renovateforum.com/f187/no...-debate-76164/  There is also another thread somewhere that has more comprehensive figures in it. 
I'm not convinced that the rules-and-regulations are primarily safety driven...  www.renovateforum.com/f195/electrical-engineer-allowed-do-electrical-work-74379/ 
I'm a firm believer in educating people results in better and safer outcomes.

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## iconnect

> I suppose we are yet again re-entering our usual electrical debate on the forum.  NZ is a good example - same voltage, same standards, same fittings, less regulation (they allow DIY) and fewer fatalities (per head of population).

  I had a look at the other links you posted but couldn't see any recent data so a quick search came up with this : ERAC - Accident Statistics
The latest statistics seem to show NZ with a higher per capita fatality rate than Aus. Originally it was lower but since 2001 the trend has been upward and surpassed that of Australia. I couldn't find any data for the last few years but reading through the data it is reasonably consistent that about 75% of deaths are to non electrical workers and the general public.  
I didn't intend to bring the thread back to the old debate, I like the others have just offered an opinion based on experience in the field of the original question. Obviously the OP can ignore my advice and carry on having a crack at it himself, but I really think its a bit reckless to not point out some of the hazards before giving someone advice on how to rewire fittings. I think the old "make sure the power is off" is not sufficient. How does the OP make sure? Turning off the main switch is not a guarantee that everything is off.  I'd bet quite a few of the unfortunate electrocution victims thought they had the power off before attempting their task. 
Every installation is different and should be treated as such, and tested accordingly. I've seen enough scary installations to know that you can't take anything for granted when it comes to electricity, so I like to make people aware of the risks involved.
Sometimes the answers you get aren't the ones you want to hear. It doesn't make them any less valid though.

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## BRADFORD

> I'm not convinced that the rules-and-regulations are primarily safety driven... 
> I'm a firm believer in educating people results in better and safer outcomes.

  That may be so but to use a forum such as this to give step by step instructions to someone who clearly does not understand what he is trying to do is not likely to produce safer outcomes.
I'm with Bros on this one, it is wise to assess someones ability before offering advice which may get them into all sorts of trouble.
Not everyone has the understanding or ability to carry out some tasks and the best and safest advice for such people is, call an electrician.
In these cases the advice is offered in the interests of safety not to ensure the industry remains a closed shop

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## Bros

One of the problems with people posting is we on the forum have no idea as to what they are looking at. A good example is the first post here which the poster gave as 1 x red, 1 x white, 1 x black and 1 x earth. It was obvious from that point he was not telling the full story which Bruiser got out of him. 
Many times you will see I ask for a photo so we can all see what the poster sees and give advise accordingly. 
As for fatalities I have seen the reports many years ago but now you don't see them same as car accidents the reason gets swept under the carpet. Australia is somewhat different to NZ as we have irrigation and there are many fatalities from irrigation pipes. Recently a bloke I worked with 8 yrs ago got a fatal electric shock ( he wasn't an electrician) he was mowing with his tractor and when he finished put the battery charger on the battery the only problem was the lead went over the hot exhaust and you can guess the rest. No RCD.

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## Draffa

> Pull the other one will you. A sparky will cost less the $100 as it is only a 10 minute job.

   

> Thanks for your help bro! I hope when you need help that you  also receive similar constructive feedback...

  If I were you, I'd do as Bros suggests and get a licensed sparky in.  If you don't know what the wires are for, and you connect something up wrong, you can start a fire, and your Insurance _will not cover you_.  I personally don't touch anything over 48 volts.

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## Master Splinter

The stats tend to lag as it can take years for a matter that goes before a coroner can actually be recorded as to cause; there's also a bit of mis-categorisation that happens - by rights, there should be a bit less 'death by misadventure' and a bit more 'suicide' in the figures, but coroners are aware of religious sensitivities in this area. 
And as far as year to year trends go, the figures jump around horribly (down 46%, then up 67%, down 43%, up 75% etc) which is to be expected with such small numbers; however you could also argue that the decreasing Australian trend is due to a number of educational campaigns that have been run in the industry (like 'look up and live') as something like 94% of deaths were caused by contact with live overhead conductors.

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## jadr76

Hi everyone, 
Thanks for all the great advice and the interesting debate. I have done the work and everything is fine, but I am getting an electrician to inspect everything. 
JR

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