# Forum Home Renovation Heating & Cooling  Help-Mouse ate my fujitsu split system head aircon electronics

## Learner

The aircon installer did not fill the hole for piping to head although recommended in installation manual and mouse came through wall cavity into the head unit  up the aircon pipes  and chewed  the  electronics  and wires inside the head unit. 
Now I have huge bill for repairs 
Bloody installers ignore manufacturers recommendations and do not seal the hole for piping to head. They can easily put expanding foam in this hole to fill gaps. 
The mouse climbs up pipes and eats electronics. 
Bloody installers!

----------


## journeyman Mick

I would write a letter to the installers, pointing out that they did not follow the manufacturer's recomendations for installation which has lead directly to the damage. Ask them to make good the damage and fit vermin proofing as per manufacturer's instructions. Cross your fingers and hope they come good. If they don't you could consider legal action, or at least get a solicitor to write a letter for you ointing out their legal obligations and threatening to pursue legal action to recover your repair and legal costs. 
Mick

----------


## Learner

> I would write a letter to the installers, pointing out that they did not follow the manufacturer's recomendations for installation which has lead directly to the damage. Ask them to make good the damage and fit vermin proofing as per manufacturer's instructions. Cross your fingers and hope they come good. If they don't you could consider legal action, or at least get a solicitor to write a letter for you ointing out their legal obligations and threatening to pursue legal action to recover your repair and legal costs. 
> Mick

  The put capping on outside wall to conceal pipes. But mice come through the tiny  external air-breathing holes of external wall into internal wall cavity and find their way into tiny gaps left in the hole for head unit pipe entry . 
I heard it is standard practice not to fill the tiny gaps left in the hole for entry of pipes to head. They never do this in Australia.

----------


## davo453

I'd say that you have an insurance claim there (I take it you are insured).  
I was a claims assessor and I'd be claiming. I wouldn't immediately acknowledge that you are aware that it wasn't installed exactly as per instructions, if you know what I mean. 
But that said I think it may well still be a claim even if you do tell them. As it is clearly damage by vermin which is covered in most policies. 
They can only say no you know. 
Cheers   
Dave

----------


## journeyman Mick

> .............I heard it is standard practice not to fill the tiny gaps left in the hole for entry of pipes to head. They never do this in Australia.

  I've always seen it done on jobs that I've worked on. 
Mick

----------


## Skew ChiDAMN!!

We've done it both ways.  (Yet another of my past occupations.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ) 
The dealership sold units on a "no-installation" basis, but provided the customers with a couple of phone numbers, including ours, as recommended installers. 
Our std. fee covered labour and materials for a straight forward installation but if there were "extras" such as colour matched flashing, long pipe runs (ie. extra copper and regassing) and the like there was a corresponding price hike.  Our profits were only about $50- per instal, less fuel expenses - divided between the two of us.  Don't get me wrong: we worked our buns off to squeeze in a few units each day, so we weren't crying poor.   
Even so, there were people who'd accept the quoted fee, then once we were on-site try to grind us down until they were getting all the extras for less than a std. installation.  As often as not they succeeded, but in all honesty they only got what they paid for.   
Bodgy price = bodgy installation.   :Sneaktongue:  
Anyone with an ounce of brains should know not to piss off the installer of their new toy... at least, not until the job is _done!_ 
(Hey!  Who hit the "reminisce" switch?  :Blush7: )

----------


## Smurf

This is dangerous both to the mouse and the air-conditioner.  
The mouse could get an electric shock or eat something toxic. This will severely shorten the life of the mouse. 
And the air-conditioner could be eaten, shorted out or otherwise damaged. This will severely shorten the life of the air-conditioner. 
I recommend that a mouse not be kept in the air-conditioner for this reason. It's much safe for both if the mouse is kept somewhere else. A cage is a good option.  :Tongue:  :Tongue:  
OK, not a good attempt at humour. Seriously, I do think you have an insurance claim here unless your policy doesn't cover rodent damage. 
Failing that I would be writing to the installers mentioning that you are investigating the possibility of a class action against them. Don't elaborate, just mention the possibility of a class action. And don't say that you _are_ doing it, just that you are investigating the possibility. This will scare the you know what out of them if they have even a rough idea what this would involve and odds are they'll just pay the repair bill for you and/or pay you to keep quiet. 
As long as you state that you are investigating such options and not that you will actually be doing them, you won't be caught out bluffing if they don't pay up. Worst case you waste an hour or so writing the letter plus 50 cents for postage. Be sure to sign the letter. 
All this is assuming that you've approached them in a friendly manner first asking that they pay the cost of repairs. Always try the friendly approach before anything else - works most of the time but not always.

----------


## Learner

> We've done it both ways. (Yet another of my past occupations. ) 
> The dealership sold units on a "no-installation" basis, but provided the customers with a couple of phone numbers, including ours, as recommended installers. 
> Our std. fee covered labour and materials for a straight forward installation but if there were "extras" such as colour matched flashing, long pipe runs (ie. extra copper and regassing) and the like there was a corresponding price hike. Our profits were only about $50- per instal, less fuel expenses - divided between the two of us. Don't get me wrong: we worked our buns off to squeeze in a few units each day, so we weren't crying poor.  
> Even so, there were people who'd accept the quoted fee, then once we were on-site try to grind us down until they were getting all the extras for less than a std. installation. As often as not they succeeded, but in all honesty they only got what they paid for.  
> Bodgy price = bodgy installation.  
> Anyone with an ounce of brains should know not to piss off the installer of their new toy... at least, not until the job is _done!_ 
> (Hey! Who hit the "reminisce" switch? )

  i DO NOT LIKE AIR-CON INSTALLERS :Annoyed:

----------


## AIRMAN

The best job I saw was where they had stuffed the penetration with a pair of undies. Not to sure where they came from but I hope they were clean. 
But don't get me started on dodgy installs I have seen and have photos of hundreds, some you wouldn't even beleive without the photos.

----------


## Skew ChiDAMN!!

> i DO NOT LIKE AIR-CON INSTALLERS

  I thought I'd replied to this?  Another one goes to the great bit-bucket in the sky, it seems.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  
The gist of my reply was: no aspersions were being thrown in your general direction, Learner.  I was simply pointing out that we did things both ways, and gave one reason why. 
But as with any trade, there are cowboys who do bodgy jobs 100% of the time.

----------


## Learner

Aussie aircon installers bad. 
Final verdict

----------


## Waldo

Stick a cat in the cavity.  :2thumbsup:     :Biggrin:

----------


## journeyman Mick

> Aussie aircon installers bad. 
> Final verdict

  
So you've met every air-con installer in Australia in the last two weeeks and observed their work practices have you? :Mad:  Sweeping generalisations like this are no better than "All Americans are loud mouth know it alls" because clearly they're not (and just as clearly, some are). Mick

----------


## Learner

> So you've met every air-con installer in Australia in the last two weeeks and observed their work practices have you? Sweeping generalisations like this are no better than "All Americans are loud mouth know it alls" because clearly they're not (and just as clearly, some are). Mick

  No but a system that makes aircon installers apprentices to senior aircon installers who have followed wrong practice for years is clearly flawed.  
What use is a compliance certificate when no one takes responsibility including the plumbing authority for dodgy installations and installers avoid precisely following a manufacturers recommendations. 
No one covers you with workmanship warranty for hole gap filling. 
Real apprenticeship and training is not about joining pipes, but learning about making holes in walls and closing them properly, climbing ladders, removing and replacing roof tiles, capping, leveling units, bolting outdoor units to the floor slab, placing outdoor units in places with sufficient space away from the wall for adequate air intake ventilation from the rear of the unit, making oil traps etc.  
If aircon installation training was about joining pipes or vacuuming systems, refrigerant gas etc. I could learn this in just one week in a Tafe.

----------


## journeyman Mick

> No but a system that makes aircon installers apprentices to senior aircon installers who have followed wrong practice for years is clearly flawed...................

  Learner, you are making assumptions about the system and *all*
the people that work in it based on your one experience.  
Do you know for a fact that all installers follow the wrong practices and have done so for years? 
Like I said earlier, if you can show that the problem was caused by the installers not following the manufacturer's recomendations then they should be liable for repairs. You could/should have followed it up via consumer affairs in your state, or failing that, get a solicitor to write a letter to the company threatening legal action. 
I find it extremely offensive that you pronounce that all air con installers in Australia do a bad job when clearly, you have no way of measuring this. Only a narrow bigotted mind passes judgement on an entire group of people based on a single experience with one person in the group. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I'm not an air-con installer. 
Mick

----------


## Learner

> Learner, you are making assumptions about the system and *all*
> the people that work in it based on your one experience.  
> Do you know for a fact that all installers follow the wrong practices and have done so for years? 
> Like I said earlier, if you can show that the problem was caused by the installers not following the manufacturer's recomendations then they should be liable for repairs. You could/should have followed it up via consumer affairs in your state, or failing that, get a solicitor to write a letter to the company threatening legal action. 
> I find it extremely offensive that you pronounce that all air con installers in Australia do a bad job when clearly, you have no way of measuring this. Only a narrow bigotted mind passes judgement on an entire group of people based on a single experience with one person in the group. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I'm not an air-con installer. 
> Mick

  I have spoken to countless aircon installers and they are following the same crappy methods of installation. 
Here is what the fujitsu manual says 
1. Use a vacuum pump for R407 exclusively. 
- No aircon installer had an exclusive vacuum pump for R407 
2. Use a clean guage manifold and charging hose for R407 exclusively
-Not followed 
3. Use the wall cap provided (like a rubber grommet) for through hole pipe connection on the indoor wall side
-Most installers discard this grommet and do not make a proper circular hole of the dimensions specified in the manual. They make a hole of a size they are used to. 
4.Use cloth tape provided by fujitsu. It is like a bandage of special material for the joint heat insulation between indoor and outdoor pipe .
- Discarded by installers. They use crap ducting tape. 
5. Fill the gap between the outside wall pipe hole and the pipe with sealer putty so that water and wind cannot blow in. 
- They just cover the outdoor hole with outdoor capping. No putty sealing. 
If you want more information on crap jobs by SCREWDRIVER AIRCON TECHNICIANS JUST ASK. 
THANKS

----------


## journeyman Mick

> I have spoken to countless aircon installers..............

  
I find that a bit hard to believe. I mean there's what, 20 million people in Australia and I'd assume that only some of them are A/C installers. Let's say there's 20,000 AC installers in Australia. I can count to 20,000 so it's not a "countless" number of installers. Just make a guess now, how many installers did you talk to, 5, 25, 50? So why did you expend all this energy questioning them? You might have been better served exploring and pursuing ways of recovering the repair costs you incurred due to an incorrect installation.       

> 1. Use a vacuum pump for R407 exclusively. 
> - No aircon installer had an exclusive vacuum pump for R407
> ..............

  Are you sure that Fujitsu specifies that this model A/C can only be evacuated by a pump that is designed exclusively for it and no other model or brand?  :Confused:  I would suggest that the manual is a poor translation of Japanese and what they mean is that a vacuum pump is to be used to the exclusion of any other method (ie purging the lines by gassing them). A vacuum pump is a vacuum pump is a vacuum pump. As long as it's got the correct connections and gets down to the correct vacuum pressure (or whatever the term is) I can't see that it would make any difference.  
You're trying to make out that you've carried out an in depth investigation into the practices of the majority of A/C installers in Australia or a representive sample of them so that you can slander an entire group of people. You've had a bad experience and lost money due to a combination of misfortune and poor practices, maybe it's just Karma.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  
Mick

----------


## Learner

> Are you sure that Fujitsu specifies that this model A/C can only be evacuated by a pump that is designed exclusively for it and no other model or brand?  I would suggest that the manual is a poor translation of Japanese and what they mean is that a vacuum pump is to be used to the exclusion of any other method (ie purging the lines by gassing them). A vacuum pump is a vacuum pump is a vacuum pump. As long as it's got the correct connections and gets down to the correct vacuum pressure (or whatever the term is) I can't see that it would make any difference.  
> You're trying to make out that you've carried out an in depth investigation into the practices of the majority of A/C installers in Australia or a representive sample of them so that you can slander an entire group of people. You've had a bad experience and lost money due to a combination of misfortune and poor practices, maybe it's just Karma.  
> Mick

  The manual was written by experts . It is 100 percent correct english and acurate technically. The use of an exclusive vacuum pump is based on scientific principles of contamination or mixing of different substances which must be avoided.  
Here is another sentance from the manual  *"Use a vacuum pump for R407C exclusively.Using the same vacuum pump for different refrigerant may damage the vacuum pump or the unit."* 
Any other questions please?

----------


## jow104

Learner your post has come to my attention. 
Are you asking for help or have you another reason for your post?

----------


## Learner

> Learner you post has come to my attention. 
> Are you asking for help or have you another reason for your post?

  Unfortunately no one is willing to help when you have a big bill for repairs. You are basically on your own and not covered under any sort of warranty or insurance etc..

----------


## journeyman Mick

Learner, 
from what you've posted Fujitsu are not specifying a pump specifically for that model of AC unit but for * the type of refrigerant gas* Perhaps there's other stuff in there you've not comprehended correctly. 
Some more questions:
1. How much effort did you put into resolving the original issue you had? (ie solve the problem rather than playing the blame game) 
2.How many A/C installers did you quiz about their work practices? C'mon a guess will do, you must have some idea. 
3.How much time did this take you?
4.What reasons did you give for polling all these A/C installers for your in depth questions regarding exclusive pumps for your model of AC?
5.Didn't any of them explain to you that you were mistaken in believing that Fujitsu required a vacuum pump for exclusive use on your particular model AC and no other?
6. How did you know that they weren't using a clean guage manifold and charging hose? Did you ask, or was it observation? 
7. Do you know how to tell if these items were clean? 
8. How do you know that "_Most installers discard this grommet and do not make a proper circular hole of the dimensions specified in the manual. They make a hole of a size they are used to_"? Have you asked most installers? have you gone around and measured the size holes they drill? You must have been a very busy boy the last few weeks.
9. How do you know that "most" installers use duct tape rather than the tape provided by Fujitsu"?
10. How do you know what's under the capping of all those AC units? You are right in that they wouldn't have used "putty". Putty is a mixture of whiting and linseed oil used to fit glass in frames in traditional style glazing. It's highly unlikely anyone would use it to stop holes for an AC installation. They'd be more likely to use expanding polyurethane foam, acrylic gapfiller or polyurethane sealant.  
Mick

----------


## johnc

Learner, 
Mick is quite right in what he points out. You have had a bad experience but that does not give you the right to go off like some brainless hot head and blame every installer in the country. I am sure there are many good installers, and I have had no problems with anything I have had installed. Stick to the problem you have with the installer you ended up with and you have my sympathy but to slander an entire industry on the basis of what appears to be a single experience makes me wonder if you have any idea about the subject you are pontificating on. 
John :Annoyed:

----------


## bitingmidge

Hey Learner, you've been moaning and carrying on like a pork chop for two weeks now.  But I'm not sure if you are asking for advice or just trying to impress us with how much you know about installing one model of airconditioner.   

> Unfortunately no one is willing to help when you have a big bill for repairs. You are basically on your own and not covered under any sort of warranty or insurance etc..

  Sadly, it doesn't look as though you know the right people.   
Two weeks ago you were given some advice that you should be covered by insurance.  Did you make a claim? Or were you too busy talking to countless air conditioning installers? 
Don't tell me you didn't have insurance?  Perhaps the well-written insurance manual didn't advise that you need that in case of rodent attack? 
How do you know the mouse came from outside?   From my experience it's more likely that it was hanging around in the wall cavity, but you never know.  If the job was so shoddy, and you knew it was because you've obviously fully supervised the bloke what he was installing it, why didn't you pull him up when he was doing it? 
Why did you pay for it? 
Hey, you've had a bit of hard luck.  How about getting on with life and fixing it and forgetting about it?  You could have had it fixed in a day I'm sure. 
Cheers, 
P

----------


## journeyman Mick

> Unfortunately no one is willing to help when you have a big bill for repairs. You are basically on your own and not covered under any sort of warranty or insurance etc..

  Have you tried helping yourself yet?
Have you contacted your state's department of consumer affairs or its equivalent?
Did you write a letter to the installers pointing out that the reason the mouse was able to access the unit's electronics and damage them, was due to their installation practice and that you would hold them liable for repair costs?
Did you get a solicitor to write a letter of demand?
Did you try to make a claim on your home insurance? 
Sometimes having a bitch and moan to get things off your chest is good, but if that's all you do rather than trying to identify and solve the problem, well you're going to be an unhappy chappy who blames everyone else for his own unhappiness. 
If you want to blame anyone then blame the original installer, don't blame the entire industry. That's the sort of thinking that gives the world racism and terrorism. 
Mick

----------


## bitingmidge

> That's the sort of thinking that gives the world racism and terrorism. 
> Mick

  And the Aquaducts!  Don't forget the Aquaducts! 
P  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

----------


## Gra

are you sure it wasnt a Rat?

----------


## Timmo

Learner, 
Quite often installation manuals are written for global use and don't necessarily comply with the relevant codes of practice. Not so much in higher end units but it still happens.
It doesn't matter what vac pump is used. You do however need to change the oil in the pump before pulling down a system. If a pump can pull a sub 100 micron vacuum, it doesnt matter. 
Also it makes no difference if its a 407c or 410a system. I can explain simply. 407c is just 410a with a 52%blend of 134a to bring the pressures down to the similar characteristics of r22. HFC refrigerants need POE, and a lot of new r22 systems also carry the same oil. really the vac pump oil should be changed for every pull down. 
Now with system evacuation, the minimum vacuum required for a deep pulldown is 1000 microns. I doubt any tradesmen would go any less than 500. I personally aim for 100 microns.  Whether or not a pump has been used for another refrigerant isn't a factor. 
It is true though, you need one set of gauges for POE lubricated systems, and another for mineral oil systems. 
The fabric tape supplied with most splitties is rubbish. proper UV stabilised thermal tape is a better product, it costs extra but is worth it. 
BTW I'm a refrigeration/airconditioning mechanic, not an installer. i spent more than the 5 days at tafe that it takes to get an arctick licence.

----------


## bitingmidge

> BTW I'm a refrigeration/airconditioning mechanic, not an installer. i spent more than the 5 days at tafe that it takes to get an arctick licence.

  Well spoken Timmo. 
Don't all installers have to be techs?  Or is there a dodgy way round it? 
P  :Wink:

----------


## Timmo

Electricians and plumbers can get a license to instal and commission split systems up to 18kw with a 1 week course. you can also do a course for a restricted license up to 18kw installation. not sure on the details but its on the arctick website. www.arctick.org. 
I can whinge and moan about them having a license, but in reality, these trades are over regulated anyway. Me holding a license does not make me a better tradesman, it just makes me insurable.

----------


## Learner

> Learner,  
> The fabric tape supplied with most splitties is rubbish. proper UV stabilised thermal tape is a better product, it costs extra but is worth it. 
> BTW I'm a refrigeration/airconditioning mechanic, not an installer. i spent more than the 5 days at tafe that it takes to get an arctick licence.

  They do not use any thermal UV tape. Just duct tape

----------


## Learner

> Hey Learner, you've been moaning and carrying on like a pork chop for two weeks now. But I'm not sure if you are asking for advice or just trying to impress us with how much you know about installing one model of airconditioner.   
> Sadly, it doesn't look as though you know the right people.  
> Two weeks ago you were given some advice that you should be covered by insurance. Did you make a claim? Or were you too busy talking to countless air conditioning installers? 
> Don't tell me you didn't have insurance? Perhaps the well-written insurance manual didn't advise that you need that in case of rodent attack? 
> How do you know the mouse came from outside? From my experience it's more likely that it was hanging around in the wall cavity, but you never know. If the job was so shoddy, and you knew it was because you've obviously fully supervised the bloke what he was installing it, why didn't you pull him up when he was doing it? 
> Why did you pay for it? 
> Hey, you've had a bit of hard luck. How about getting on with life and fixing it and forgetting about it? You could have had it fixed in a day I'm sure. 
> Cheers, 
> P

  The system was under warranty. The fujitsu guys came and had a look and found a dead mouse with all mouse droppings and chewed wires in the head unit.  
They said it is not covered under warranty because job was not done to manufacturers recommendations. 
I spoke to plumbing commission. They only cover plumbing work and not problems with holes in walls etc. 
Fujitsu want 400 dollars to replace the circuit board. It is an inverter unit. 
Insurance will not cover a failed airconditioning/electrical item

----------


## Honorary Bloke

> Fujitsu want 400 dollars to replace the circuit board. It is an inverter unit.

  Then I suggest you hand it to them quick smart before they raise prices.

----------


## johnc

It is probably in your interest to pay the $400, and get the unit fixed properly. Then explore your options of recovering the $400 from the installer, he might pay all or part, if its none there is always small claims/consumer affairs. For $400 I'd get over it and move on, its not enough to warrant loosing hours of your time and further costs to recover. Wage slaves seem to get up in arms over these things, for the self employed you soon learn you are going to come across people who will not or cannot pay, its life, get over it and find something else more positive to occupy your mind.

----------


## Learner

> Then I suggest you hand it to them quick smart before they raise prices.

  Oh dear

----------


## Learner

> It is probably in your interest to pay the $400, and get the unit fixed properly. Then explore your options of recovering the $400 from the installer, he might pay all or part, if its none there is always small claims/consumer affairs. For $400 I'd get over it and move on, its not enough to warrant loosing hours of your time and further costs to recover. Wage slaves seem to get up in arms over these things, for the self employed you soon learn you are going to come across people who will not or cannot pay, its life, get over it and find something else more positive to occupy your mind.

  I have to pay to get it fixed. No other option

----------


## memphis

> They do not use any thermal UV tape. Just duct tape

  You fighting this isnt going to help you get your air con working again. 
I think maybe stand back and think about it for a second, myself; i have 5 split systems installed in my house with no problems, the guy who installed all 5 over a year period did a fantastic job on all of them, you are telling the world that he is a useless tradie when clearly you do not know him. 
I think the thread is getting a bit out of hand, is any of this going to fix your rodent problem? no? 
....go buy some mouse traps

----------


## bitingmidge

I designed my house to work with the climate, so I don't have any airconditioning.  I reckon air conditioning is the biggest cop out for not putting the proper effort into designing correctly and insulating properly that we have yet seen. 
We don't eat cheese, so no mice either!  :Wink:  
Cheers, 
P  :Biggrin:

----------


## Cliff Rogers

This bloke lives in a stump in our driveway, I'll rent him out.  :2thumbsup:  
(Stupid picture won't load.  :Annoyed: ) 
Fixed.... he was TOO big.  :Rolleyes:

----------


## Iain

> This bloke lives in a stump in our driveway, I'll rent him out.

  But won't he need a bigger hole to fit through............

----------


## Geoff Dean

> This bloke lives in a stump in our driveway, I'll rent him out.  
> (Stupid picture won't load. ) 
> Fixed.... he was TOO big.

  Glad you got him back. :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:

----------


## Learner

> Glad you got him back.

   :Doh:

----------


## Smurf

My life experiences plus running part of the finances at work has long ago taught me not to worry too much over amounts like $400. 
Get the board replaced and the air-con working. And make damn sure the hole is fixed so it doesn't happen again. 
Then, if you have the time and are willing to use it to try and recover the $400, contact the installer and see if they'll pay up. If not then use a legal threat of some type. And finally there's always the small claims.  
That said, if paid overtime is available where you work then just earning another $400 would likely be quicker and easier.

----------


## Cliff Rogers

> ...long ago taught me not to worry too much ......

  Yeap, you'll live longer.  :2thumbsup:

----------


## Learner

> Doesn't sound like something I would recommend then... 
> I wonder what the manufactorer of split systems think? Do companies accept this in their systems, and still honor warrenties?

  Never. Why should a company accept dodgy workmanship? 
How many split systems work fine in Shanghai and Dubai? Thousands on skyscraper buildings. 
Not that they get them installed by half-starving uneducated slave labourers. Cannot be possible. Impossible! 
I am not an aircon tech but I reckon I could install a system better than many installers with licence. Correct installation methods are all in the installation manual. 
How many aircon installers even bother to buy and use torque wrenches? 
Shame! Shame! Shame!

----------


## Learner

> Learner, 
> from what you've posted Fujitsu are not specifying a pump specifically for that model of AC unit but for *the type of refrigerant gas* Perhaps there's other stuff in there you've not comprehended correctly. 
> Some more questions:
> 1. How much effort did you put into resolving the original issue you had? (ie solve the problem rather than playing the blame game) 
> 2.How many A/C installers did you quiz about their work practices? C'mon a guess will do, you must have some idea. 
> 3.How much time did this take you?
> 4.What reasons did you give for polling all these A/C installers for your in depth questions regarding exclusive pumps for your model of AC?
> 5.Didn't any of them explain to you that you were mistaken in believing that Fujitsu required a vacuum pump for exclusive use on your particular model AC and no other?
> 6. How did you know that they weren't using a clean guage manifold and charging hose? Did you ask, or was it observation? 
> ...

  For your kind information the WORD PUTTY IS USED IN THE FUJITSU INSTALLATION MANUAL 
Putty has many compositions/applications  *put·ty*1  /ˈpʌti/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[*puht*-ee]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation_noun, plural_ *-ties,* _verb,_ *-tied, -ty·ing.*  _–noun_ 
<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">1.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">a compound of whiting and linseed oil, of a doughlike consistency when fresh, used to secure windowpanes, patch woodwork defects, etc. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">2.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">any of various other compounds used for similar purposes. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">3.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">any of various substances for sealing the joints of tubes or pipes, composed of linseed oil with red lead, white lead, iron oxide, etc. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">4.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">a creamy mixture of lime and water, partially dried and mixed with sand and plaster of Paris to make a finish plaster coat. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">5.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">putty powder. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">6.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">any person or thing easily molded, influenced, etc.: _We were putty in his hands._ </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">7.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">light brownish- or yellowish-gray. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> _–verb (used with object)_   http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/putty

----------


## Learner

> Yeap, you'll live longer.

  ???????? LIES! 
i NEVER LIVE LONGER WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF BEING CHEATED WITH SHODDY WORKMANSHIP.   :Annoyed:

----------


## AV Elec

> Correct installation methods are all in the installation manual.

  Well I have seen many installation manuals which tell you to do the purge method. A propper tech will evacuate the system suitably using a multistage pump.  

> How many aircon installers even bother to buy and use torque wrenches? 
> Shame! Shame! Shame!

  They don't, at least from what I have seen. With a propper flare, and drop of oil, a fridgy will be able to feel the connection. The correct torque will not make up for otherwise incorrect procedures.

----------


## Cliff Rogers

You won't if you let it continue to bother you, get over it & move on.  :Smilie:

----------


## Learner

> Well I have seen many installation manuals which tell you to do the purge method. A propper tech will evacuate the system suitably using a multistage pump.

  
YOU MUST BE JOKING. They tell you they supply extra refrigerant for purging? 
Show me those manuals?

----------


## AV Elec

Well if the manufactorer doesn't honor warrantee using this goo, then I would tell the mechanic to remove the system, and refund the $$. Simple. Otherwise go to fair trading. 
What many people don't realise with AC systems, is dodgy work will often allow the unit to work fine in the short term (albeit not as efficient). The problem is inside the system things are happening, and it could be the difference between lasting 3 years, or 20 years fault free. :Shock:  Think about that when there is a difference in the install quote is a couple of hundred dollars...

----------


## AV Elec

> YOU MUST BE JOKING. They tell you they supply extra refrigerant for purging? 
> Show me those manuals?

  I am not joking. 
I was an AC mechanic for 10 years, but left 6 years ago. Believe me, there are manuals which say that... Not that we followed them, we just did it the old fashioned way. I was predominately in service/maintenance. I would have installed less than a couple of dozen splits. 
I don't even think Artick licence was established then. At least it wasn't inforced as I never got certified. No one ever asked me to do so.

----------


## bitingmidge

> ???????? LIES! 
> i NEVER LIVE LONGER WITH THE KNOWLEDGE OF BEING CHEATED WITH SHODDY WORKMANSHIP.

  Interesting! 
Did you take the cheapest quote? 
P  :Confused:

----------


## Learner

> Well I have seen many installation manuals which tell you to do the purge method. A propper tech will evacuate the system suitably using a multistage pump.  
> They don't, at least from what I have seen. With a propper flare, and drop of oil, a fridgy will be able to feel the connection. The correct torque will not make up for otherwise incorrect procedures.

  You are saying you would buy a new car which bolts have been fitted in the factory without a Torque wrench? 
We all earn money honestly and expect a good worker to use the right tools and do a good job for our hard earned money.

----------


## Learner

> Interesting! 
> Did you take the cheapest quote? 
> P

  No!

----------


## AV Elec

I am saying I have never seen a fridgy use a torque wrench on a flare nut. I have known dozens of fridgys.   Torque wrenches were not used on flare nuts at TAFE in either the trade, or the advanced course either. Should I dust off the old notes?  Not all bolts on a car require a torque wrench anyway...

----------


## Waldo

Move on!  :Annoyed:  
Nothing but posts whinging about air/con, globes and other carp.  :Angryfire:  
Go sharpen a few chisels or do something with a bit of wood.

----------


## sdrob

before i start i don't to start a argument, but i have never used a torque wrench to tighten up flares on any system and have never had any problems, that is why you are ment to pressure test for leaks. as stated with practice you know when they are tight enough. properly done flares seal really well with out problems..
 but on the original message i would go back to the dealer or to who ever recommened this guy and get a exlenation as to his qualifications and abilitys.. otherwise contact artick.. they are now the regulating body.. best of luck

----------


## AV Elec

> i DO NOT LIKE AIR-CON INSTALLERS

  Great sweeping generalisation...
Do you like aircon installers giving you (free) advice when you ask for it??

----------


## Learner

> I am saying I have never seen a fridgy use a torque wrench on a flare nut. I have known dozens of fridgys.   Torque wrenches were not used on flare nuts at TAFE in either the trade, or the advanced course either. Should I dust off the old notes?  Not all bolts on a car require a torque wrench anyway...

  Who was your teacher. Name of your Tafe please?  http://www.airconditioningadvice.com...hp?p=91#post91

----------


## Learner

> before i start i don't to start a argument, but i have never used a torque wrench to tighten up flares on any system and have never had any problems, that is why you are ment to pressure test for leaks. as stated with practice you know when they are tight enough. properly done flares seal really well with out problems..
> but on the original message i would go back to the dealer or to who ever recommened this guy and get a exlenation as to his qualifications and abilitys.. otherwise contact artick.. they are now the regulating body.. best of luck

  http://airconditioningadvice.com.au/...hread.php?t=33

----------


## Learner

> Great sweeping generalisation...
> Do you like aircon installers giving you (free) advice when you ask for it??

  Why do I need free advice. I pay for a job and manual supplied with the equipment gives correct installation methods and tools to be used for the job which I expect to be followed.

----------


## Learner

> Great sweeping generalisation...
> Do you like aircon installers giving you (free) advice when you ask for it??

  There is only one way to do a job. And that is the correct way! :Wink:

----------


## AV Elec

> Who was your teacher. Name of your Tafe please?

  Ultimo TAFE for both Fridgy trade, and advanced certificate.
Followed on with Electrical trade, Electrical engineering cert4, industrial electronics, Austel, PLC's.......... 
Can't remember the teachers name. Is it even relevant? He was old, and very experienced though... 
And your qualifocations are...

----------


## AV Elec

> Why do I need free advice.

  Were you asking for advice in your other thread, or just winging?? 
It seems to me you have an agenda, so I will bow out of this discussion now. 
Good luck with your mouse problem...

----------


## Learner

> Ultimo TAFE for both Fridgy trade, and advanced certificate.
> Followed on with Electrical trade, Electrical engineering cert4, industrial electronics, Austel, PLC's.......... 
> Can't remember the teachers name. Is it even relevant? He was old, and very experienced though... 
> And your qualifocations are...

  Every manual I have read so far says "use a torque wrench". Your teacher must be smarter than them.

----------


## Learner

> Move on!  
> Nothing but posts whinging about air/con, globes and other carp.  
> Go sharpen a few chisels or do something with a bit of wood.

  Of course I did some wood work recently. If that makes you happy.

----------


## Learner

> Move on!  
> Nothing but posts whinging about air/con, globes and other carp.  
> Go sharpen a few chisels or do something with a bit of wood.

  Why are you whinging about your rulers made wrong by 10mm? :Mad:

----------


## AV Elec

> Every manual I have read so far says "use a torque wrench". Your teacher must be smarter than them.

  You are also qualified to install a split system with a 1 week course. Not sufficient IMO.  *And your qualifocations are? (Apart from reading manuals)*

----------


## Learner

> You are also qualified to install a split system with a 1 week course. Not sufficient IMO.  *And your qualifocations, apart from reading manuals??*

  My qualifications 
Reading forums. See thread below   http://airconditioningadvice.com.au/...hread.php?t=33  http://www.airconditioningadvice.com...hp?p=91#post91

----------


## Robbo

*Learner.* For 3 weeks, 1 day and 23 hrs (at the time of writing) you have asked for advice, got it, ignored it and gone on your merry way of denigrating all A/C installers and other sundry trades because of your own lack of experience in dealing with people. 
You have gone into other threads with the same lack of understanding and tolerance and hung it on everyone in there as well. 
If you are so smart from reading all the manuals and searching the web, fix the thing yourself. I am sure there is somewhere that can tell you how to fix the circuit board and install it so that it is vermin proof. 
I am also sure that if you search long enough on the web you could probably find out how to exterminate all the rodents so that it wouldn't happen again. 
You may also learn that tradies that do a job for years have a "feel" for what they do and don't have to use a torque wrench on non critical components. 
You have had your bitch, now do as others are telling you, move on and get over it. *This thread will be closed in 24 hours*.

----------


## Robbo

Learner keep it civil.

----------


## Smurf

> Every manual I have read so far says "use a torque wrench". Your teacher must be smarter than them.

  The reason for the torque wrench is to make sure the torque is correct. It wouldn't be impossible for an experienced person to do the same job without that tool. 
It's like cooking. They tell you to measure all the ingredients. But professional chefs just chuck things in without actually measuring. They get it right due to experience.

----------


## Learner

> The reason for the torque wrench is to make sure the torque is correct. It wouldn't be impossible for an experienced person to do the same job without that tool. 
> It's like cooking. They tell you to measure all the ingredients. But professional chefs just chuck things in without actually measuring. They get it right due to experience.

  I see. 
Anyway with an airconditioning system we need precise torque. I do not think there is scope for inaccuracy. Who wants a a system that does not last 20 + years? 
Sometimes the cost of installation is more than the unit itself. And to realise that the technicians who install these units do not want to invest in quality instruments like digital guages, quality vacuum pumps and torque wrenches makes me upset. 
The vacuum pump that my installer used looked like those tiny cheapest 15 dollar air-compressors for car tires. 
They do not want to invest in quality deep vacuum pumps. 
At the cost of 750 dollars for a single split system installation I do not think I was asking for too much. 
The vacuum pump below is the type I expect to be use for my system-not some 15 dollar el cheapo toy rubbish that was used for very short time.  http://www.jbind.com/catalog_multi-p...07_catalog.pdf

----------


## Smurf

*Danger.*  *Regarding the discussion on what is "putty", please note that there used to be a product made with oil and asbestos.* This sets white in colour where exposed to the sun and never goes hard (stays a grey colour) where not exposed. The hardened putty will easily break and release fibres.  
As most would be aware, *asbestos is highly dangerous* - get a licensed removalist to deal with it and don't DIY unless you can simply dispose of whatever it's on without disturbing the actual putty. 
Whilst this is no longer sold, I just thought I'd mention it given the discussion about putty. *Don't use any old putty in brown paper wrappers if you aren't sure what it contains*.

----------


## Learner

> *Learner.* For 3 weeks, 1 day and 23 hrs (at the time of writing) you have asked for advice, got it, ignored it and gone on your merry way of denigrating all A/C installers and other sundry trades because of your own lack of experience in dealing with people. 
> You have gone into other threads with the same lack of understanding and tolerance and hung it on everyone in there as well. 
> If you are so smart from reading all the manuals and searching the web, fix the thing yourself. I am sure there is somewhere that can tell you how to fix the circuit board and install it so that it is vermin proof. 
> I am also sure that if you search long enough on the web you could probably find out how to exterminate all the rodents so that it wouldn't happen again. 
> You may also learn that tradies that do a job for years have a "feel" for what they do and don't have to use a torque wrench on non critical components. 
> You have had your bitch, now do as others are telling you, move on and get over it. *This thread will be closed in 24 hours*.

  
Hey I did not denigrate other sundry trades. You put words in my mouth.

----------


## Jack E

Thank you to all who defended the Refrigeration trade (except Peter who suggested that if houses were designed correctly the Fridgy would be extinct, what would Architects know anyway :Biggrin: ) 
I have a full ArcTick licence and have completed an apprenticeship as a Refrigeration Mechanic. 
The one thing I have noticed in this whole post is that "Learner" has chosen his user name wisely, as far as I can tell he will always be a learner and never be learned :Smilie:  
Cheers, Jack

----------


## journeyman Mick

Learner,
Fujitsu, a Japanese company, used the word "putty" in its installation manual, a manual which was written to be distributed to many English speaking markets. You've also correctly idenntified that this word has many and varied dictionary meanings. However, when used in the context of building work and air con installations in Australia "putty" is not used. There is everyday language, slang, legalese and technical jargon. People in certain industries/professions/trades use technical jargon because everyday language is not sufficient to communicate the intricacies of their specialisation. In the context of building and air con installations "putty" is not used for sealing air con unit service penetrations. It may be used for stopping holes in timber prior to finishing (but rare nowadays) and it sometimes still gets used for glazing work in timber frames (but it's mostly been replaced with timber beads and a smear of silicone). Quote the manual or the dictionary all you want, but book knowledge doesn't equate with real life training and knowledge. 
By the way, what makes you think a mouse crawled up the service duct and into the wall cavity to chew on your cabling? It's much more likely that it was already in your house, either in the ceiling crawl space or under the floor and accessed the wall cavity from there.  
Mick

----------


## AV Elec

> I have a full ArcTick licence and have completed an apprenticeship as a Refrigeration Mechanic. 
> Cheers, Jack

  You are a rare breed. They mentioned the other day that Fridgys were the number one listed in the skills shortage. There should be plenty of work on. :Biggrin:

----------


## journeyman Mick

Is it even possible to use a torque wrench on a flare nut???? :Confused:  I can't see it, you could use a crow's foot wrench - a bit like a short open ender with a square opening for a 1/2" drive but this would lengthen the effective lever and make the torque wrench setting incorrect.  I'm not a fridge mechanic but I've rebuilt a fair bit of machinery and fitted high pressure dive compressors as well as brake lines and gas lines and refrigeration systems etc all with flare nuts. I can't imagine using a torque wrench in preference to the feel of the fitting nipping up as you tighten it. A torque setting would assume that all the pipework used had exactly the same hardness so that it would seal with the same torque every time. I don't think I'd trust that the metallurgy was that consistent. 
Mick

----------


## Jack E

Learner,
As all your facts so far are based on web learning, perhaps you should look at the ArcTick page and check the requirements for an AC installer.
He is required to have a vacuum pump.
If you can find a cheap vac pump in Australia, I suggest you buy them all and sell them to tradies.
Is the vac pump you referred to OK for all refrigerants or do we need a different one for each type. 
Can you please let me know what you do for a living so I can do 30 seconds of internet research and have a crack at your job too! 
Cheers, Jack

----------


## Jack E

Yeah, and I'm a sparky too, I should be getting paid in blank checks :Biggrin:  
It's pretty hard to make money as a fridgey, there are blokes like everywhere who have a split installed and then think hey, all I have to do is read the manual, use a couple of torque wrenches and plug the vacuum cleaner onto the pipes somewhere and all will be fine :Biggrin:  
Cheers, Jack

----------


## jow104

And may I confirm every word Robbo said.  :Wink 1:

----------


## Learner

> Learner,
> As all your facts so far are based on web learning, perhaps you should look at the ArcTick page and check the requirements for an AC installer.
> He is required to have a vacuum pump.
> If you can find a cheap vac pump in Australia, I suggest you buy them all and sell them to tradies.
> Is the vac pump you referred to OK for all refrigerants or do we need a different one for each type. 
> Can you please let me know what you do for a living so I can do 30 seconds of internet research and have a crack at your job too! 
> Cheers, Jack

  Thanks. Now have a crack at my job. 
My job is auto electrician. I work  Toyota car Service

----------


## Jack E

Well what do you know, I'm an Auto Electrician, Electrical Fitter Mechanic and have a full ArcTick RAC/Auto aircon licence.
Do you have any experience on auto A/C's? 
Any news on those cheap vac pumps yet? Are they OK for all refrigerants and where can I get one for $15 :Smilie:  
Cheers, Jack

----------


## AV Elec

> Any news on those cheap vac pumps yet? Are they OK for all refrigerants and where can I get one for $15 
> Cheers, Jack

  I would be also be interested in one for $15. If it isn't suitable for pulling a propper vacuum, I could allways use it as a vacuum hold down for my cnc router when it is done.  :2thumbsup:  
$15 would be the best value vac pump around.

----------


## journeyman Mick

> .................It's pretty hard to make money as a fridgey, there are blokes like everywhere who have a split installed and then think hey, all I have to do is read the manual, use a couple of torque wrenches and plug the vacuum cleaner onto the pipes somewhere and all will be fine.............

   :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  
Mick

----------


## Learner

> Well what do you know, I'm an Auto Electrician, Electrical Fitter Mechanic and have a full ArcTick RAC/Auto aircon licence.
> Do you have any experience on auto A/C's? 
> Any news on those cheap vac pumps yet? Are they OK for all refrigerants and where can I get one for $15 
> Cheers, Jack

  You want a cheap vacuum pump ask my aircon installer. I swear he spent next to nothing for it. 
And it looks exactly like a small bicycle or car tyre air pump

----------


## Learner

> Well what do you know, I'm an Auto Electrician, Electrical Fitter Mechanic and have a full ArcTick RAC/Auto aircon licence.
> Do you have any experience on auto A/C's? 
> Any news on those cheap vac pumps yet? Are they OK for all refrigerants and where can I get one for $15 
> Cheers, Jack

  No I will not touch auto A/c,s

----------


## Jack E

> You want a cheap vacuum pump ask my aircon installer. I swear he spent next to nothing for it. 
> And it looks exactly like a small bicycle or car tyre air pump

  What were you expecting?
My first vac pump was home made, an electric motor and a pump on a frame with a belt between them, nothing flash but it did the job.
As long as it is rated it doesn't matter what it looks like.
Did he have a name brand drill or a GMC, and would it have made a difference to the holes he drilled? 
Cheers, Jack

----------


## Jack E

> No I will not touch auto A/c,s

  Why not, surely Toyota have manuals and all the tools required, how hard can it be? 
Cheers, Jack

----------


## Learner

Good night. This thread will be closed tomorrow.

----------


## Learner

> Why not, surely Toyota have manuals and all the tools required, how hard can it be? 
> Cheers, Jack

  Aircon installation and repairs is not my trade and it will never be. Other aircon mechanics can ruin your reputation. 
I have seen all sorts of dodgy work in old cars. 
Good night

----------


## Jack E

> Aircon installation is not my trade and it will never be. Other aircon mechanics can ruin your reputation. 
> I have seen all sorts of dodgy work. 
> Good night

  That is exactly why many people have a problem with what you say, other aircon mechanics CANNOT ruin MY reputation, only their own :Smilie:  
Cheers, Jack

----------


## Learner

> What were you expecting?
> My first vac pump was home made, an electric motor and a pump on a frame with a belt between them, nothing flash but it did the job.
> As long as it is rated it doesn't matter what it looks like.
> Did he have a name brand drill or a GMC, and would it have made a difference to the holes he drilled? 
> Cheers, Jack

  I was expecting better equipment from a 15+ years installer. Anyways I have learnt my lesson in life.  
You do not get what you pay for!

----------


## journeyman Mick

> Good night. This thread will be closed tomorrow.

  
No, actually the other thread will be closed. :Doh:  Can someone answer my question - is it possible to use a torque wrench on a flare nut? 
Mick

----------


## Jack E

> I was expecting better equipment from a 15+ years installer. Anyways I have learnt my lesson in life.  
> You do not get what you pay for!

  So what is in your toolbox at work, all highly polished shiny Snap On tools or do you have the odd rusty spanner in  there?
Heaven forbid a customer should see you using a cheap soldering iron :Smilie:

----------


## Cliff Rogers

> ...in the context of building work ...in Australia "putty" is not used. ....

  Bog?  :Biggrin:

----------


## exotiic

Goof morning Mick, 
Actually Rothenberger have recently released a set of torque wrenches specifically for split system installs. The heads range from 17mm to 29mm inclusive and there are 6 different sized heads. The torque can be controlled from 0 to 75Nm which is the maximum  required for 5/8 nuts. I purchased them late last year and they're absolutely great to use. Very easy and no problems. 
Just on a side note in regards to a statement made by Learner, who claims that in regards to torque settings there is no room for inaccuracies? Can you please explain to me then why even in the Fujitsu manual itself the torque settings are within a range and not an exact figure? For example, the 5/8 setting recommends between 65-75Nm. Thats a 15% variation. Similar advice is given in the manual for all sized flares also.

----------


## Learner

> Goof morning Mick, 
> Actually Rothenberger have recently released a set of torque wrenches specifically for split system installs. The heads range from 17mm to 29mm inclusive and there are 6 different sized heads. The torque can be controlled from 0 to 75Nm which is the maximum required for 5/8 nuts. I purchased them late last year and they're absolutely great to use. Very easy and no problems. 
> Just on a side note in regards to a statement made by Learner, who claims that in regards to torque settings there is no room for inaccuracies? Can you please explain to me then why even in the Fujitsu manual itself the torque settings are within a range and not an exact figure? For example, the 5/8 setting recommends between 65-75Nm. Thats a 15% variation. Similar advice is given in the manual for all sized flares also.

  I would accept 15% variation. Not 50%-75% variation 
You have purchased torque wrenches and are happy to use them. You are not set in your ways like the older generation of aircon techs. 
I would be happy to use your services for split system installations

----------


## Vernonv

> I would be happy to use your services for split system installations

  If I was him, I would be very wary of such an offer. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## AV Elec

:Feedtroll:

----------


## exotiic

Thanks for that learner but the thing is that there is no doubt many of these posters have a heap more experience than I do. Ive been in the trade since i was growing up with my father but officially 10 years including my apprenticeship and running my company. And I am sure that they would be able to 'feel' the correct torque required a lot quicker than I would be able to set them on the wrench. And for your comfort it is not actually possible to vary much above the 15% variation in the tightening of the flares without actually noticing the over tightening and cracking of the flare.

----------


## journeyman Mick

> Goof morning Mick..............

  
And a very *goof* evening to you exotiic. :Biggrin:  :Biggrin: 
Interesting about the torque wrenches, I'll have to do a google and seen if I can find a pic. I can't quite picture them, I assume it's a flare nut spanner with a tension indicating device built into the shaft/handle, rather than a wrench that you can put some sort of socket onto. So before Rothenberger released theirs were there any on the market, or any other way of measuring torque on a flare nut? 
Mick

----------

