# Forum Home Renovation Structural Renovation  Timber Framing Code

## chanquetas

Does anyone know where I can download the Timber Framing Code (Qld). It seems rather elusive on the net. Surely this is a free publication one can download as required.
Cheers.

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## duckman

Free? Surely you jest!! If Qld is like Victoria in this regard you will have to buy it. 
Do you have a Timber Promotion Council up there?
Expect to pay >$50.00 for it. 
A search on Google would probably be your best bet until one of the other Qlder's on the board responds. 
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings.  :Smilie:   
PS:  
I got this link from www.tpcvic.org.au 
I tried looking at what publications they have available but you have to log in to do so. Way to drum up business Qlder's.  :Frown:    http://www.timberqueensland.com.au

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## Ian007

Sorry its not free. 
you will need to pay for it and you get it from standards australia they are on the web but you will need to do search. or you can get it from the timber development assoc 
there are three different codes across australia and you need the one for where you want to build. 
Cheers Ian  :Smilie:

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## MarkV

http://www.standards.com.au/catalogue/script/Search.asp    You can try this link I had a bit of a dig around via our work login and it is a bit hard ( for me anyway ) to work out exactly what standard you want. There is a whole bunch of framing standards. Might be an idea to ask council what standard you have to comply to. The one I looked at was about $28 but it sort of gave me the impression that it was some sort of checklist as opposed to a descriptive type document.  Hope this helps ,maybe one of the builders say Journeyman Mick could help.   
                              Cheers Mark

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## arms

> Does anyone know where I can download the Timber Framing Code (Qld). It seems rather elusive on the net. Surely this is a free publication one can download as required.
> Cheers.

  the only way to get the timber framing code is to buy the tradac  manual from the timber advisory board in queensland,they are on brunswick street fortitude valley,i think i paid about 50 dollars for mine
kind regards
tom armstrong www.armstrongcabinets.com.au

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## Sturdee

Our local library has available for loan the Victorian framing manual and the Timber framing manual supplementary tables as well as the Australian roof building manual as well as books on framing practices ( sort of how to books ). 
Try your local library.  
Peter.

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## glenn k

I was going to say go to the library aswell. The only trouble is that they are very limited is sizes and grades of timber. Pine is F5 so if you have F7, F8, F11 or F14 pine you don't know what you can do with it. You can use tables for other woods but most are for green wood so they under rate. 
The library of standards Australia have have heaps of tables you can look at them but not photocopy. They are costly but you are allowed to manually copy them. I cut and graded the wood for my extension and used pine of all grades correctly but the building inspector didn't have tables to chec. You can grade some hardwoods to F34 but there are no tables to show what it can do. Normal tables only go to F17 I graded a lot of timber higher than this.

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## E. maculata

Gidday fella's, 
commonly availiable span tables are a good way to start learning about what timber to use in relation to stress loadings.
Re Hardwood grading, the tables that are commonly availiable from industry bodies in each state, usually reflect the local (read endemic to that state) timber species strength/failure properties in a  fairly generalised manner. A complete listing is found in AS 2082-2000 and 2 or 3 others.
Being Northern NSW/SE QLD based, the grading guides I give my apprentices when we do our timber grading tickets _start_  at F-11 green and go up to F-43 for some of our Hardwoods.    :Smilie:

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## chanquetas

Thanks for the replies all. I shall buy it. Actually just got home from the Valley, could have picked it up.  
However, this information as well as all standards should be free to the public. I dont agree with this secrecy of information nonsense. Fancy telling us YOU MUST conform to this standard, but then making us pay for it. AMSA have supplied free to all the Marine Orders, its about time others industries followed suit.
Anyway, I think I might build a new house behind my existing house, so I better get the codes.
Cheers.

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## duckman

> Thanks for the replies all. I shall buy it. Actually just got home from the Valley, could have picked it up.  
> However, this information as well as all standards should be free to the public. I dont agree with this secrecy of information nonsense. Fancy telling us YOU MUST conform to this standard, but then making us pay for it. AMSA have supplied free to all the Marine Orders, its about time others industries followed suit.
> Anyway, I think I might build a new house behind my existing house, so I better get the codes.
> Cheers.

  There's no secrecy here changetas. A considerable amount of work goes into producing these tables, and the work in on-going. Someone has to pay for it. Its called "user pays" and personally I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a very big problem with is "cross subsidies" where people who do not in any way benefit from something, nonetheless have to foot part of the bill for that something.  
As for you Marine Orders, just how much research by qualified scientists and engineers or other appropriate professionals goes into producing a set of regulations? 
Just my 0.02 cents worth. 
Take it easy.. 
Mark.

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## MarkV

Just a thought the Architect/draftsman who draws up you plans will specify the appropriate timbers and fixings. The mob that make frames and trusses will know what to do and if all else fails the building inspector will be able to tell you what you need to do to comply with your council specs. I have a couple of mates who have done MAJOR extensions and /or built houses and to be honest they wouldn't know what one of the standards looked like.After this is what you pay all these various people for. At the end of the day if the building inspector is happy everything should be fine .

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## Theva

Chanquetas, 
The standard you are after is AS1684.3 if your house is in cyclonic area.   
If not, AS1684.4 Simplified version for non cyclonic areas. 
Regards, 
Theva

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## duckman

> Just a thought the Architect/draftsman who draws up you plans will specify the appropriate timbers and fixings. The mob that make frames and trusses will know what to do and if all else fails the building inspector will be able to tell you what you need to do to comply with your council specs. I have a couple of mates who have done MAJOR extensions and /or built houses and to be honest they wouldn't know what one of the standards looked like.After this is what you pay all these various people for. At the end of the day if the building inspector is happy everything should be fine .

  Architects "don't know s**t from clay" and drafties have no interest whatsoever in determing the most cost effective way to build the proposed structure. And why should they? Its NOT their money. The builder is the best person to work it out and he/she is the one who has to guarantee the work.

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## journeyman Mick

The manuals come in different flavours depending on your terrain category/wind force and whether you're in a cyclonic or non cyclonic area. If your council is anything like mine they won't tell you what terrain category you are in (even if you're building next to a building classified as a certain terrain category) because you now need to engage the services of someone licensed to identify terrain category. My local council will no longer do this because of legal liability issues.  
Mick

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## chanquetas

Im going to build it myself. How hard can it be? A bit of wood here, a beam thingy there, a joist thrown in for good measure...
I am in a non-cyclonic area - Brisbane. Still I will over engineer it to buggery of course.
So no, there will not be a builder to determine spacings etc., hence my need for the documentation, which I should not have to pay for. The government work for us dont they? They should provide this sort of thing as a service.
Having to pay for Australian Standards is ludicrous.
Theva, thanks for the numbers.

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## capedcrusader

> Having to pay for Australian Standards is ludicrous.

  The framing code is more like information than a set of regulations - you get to find out how to build your house without it falling over and killing you because someones sat somewhere and done the appropriate calculations. Why should you get that for nothing??? Go to a library if you want it for nothing but then they might ask you to pay to join.

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## Sturdee

> Go to a library if you want it for nothing but then they might ask you to pay to join.

  
At least in Victoria all libraries are free. 
Peter.

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## chanquetas

In Qld also, libraries are free. The standards are regulations set out by the Govt. I know that for instance studs must be no more than 450mm apart. Surely the Govt can tell me that, it is not undermining the efforts of a private individual to impart this RULE. It is not HOW to build, but what standards I must conform to. 
As far as building the actual thing, fine, I will go out and buy a book called "How to build a House". I have no problem with that. But the Govt, if they want me to build to a given standard they should GIVE the standard...
See where Im coming from?

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## Sturdee

I fully agree, that is why I posted the suggestion of using libraries. 
The government setting standards and not telling you what they are is the same IMO as booking you for speeding on a road without it being signposted with the maximum speed.   
Peter.

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## duckman

> In Qld also, libraries are free. The standards are regulations set out by the Govt. I know that for instance studs must be no more than 450mm apart. Surely the Govt can tell me that, it is not undermining the efforts of a private individual to impart this RULE.

  Studs can be placed at up to 600mm centres, not 450mm.   

> As far as building the actual thing, fine, I will go out and buy a book called "How to build a House". I have no problem with that. But the Govt, if they want me to build to a given standard they should GIVE the standard...
> See where Im coming from?

  If you think you're going to find a book that tells you the one and only way to build your house, then you're going to be bitterly disappointed. Thankfully, there is no such thing.
I wish you luck in your endeavours because I think you're going to need all the luck you can get. 
Hooroo..

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## Theva

Standards Australia is a self funded body.  The only way they get to do their work is by selling their products. 
The Govt / Taxpayer does not pay for all the services this mob provides. 
Regards, 
Theva

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## chanquetas

Duckman I did say I was going to overengineer it. I think 600mm is too big. 
As for Standards Australia, you may be right Theva but that doesnt mean that the Govt shouldnt subsidise them, and that we should have to pay for them. When I get a hold of the code maybe I'll post it on the web for all to enjoy. A bit of open-source for diyers.

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## journeyman Mick

You're confusing a few seperate things here, the Australian Standards, the Building code of Australia and the TRADAC framing manuals. Presumably you will be submitting plans to council. The plans will tell you your post, bearer and joist spacings etc etc etc. If you want to draw your own plans then that's another ball game entirely. I have in the past drawn my own plans using my TRADAC manuals as reference. However if you have no previous experience at building or designing don't think that getting a hold of a manual will neccesarily make it possible for you to build and design a structure. I don't know how helpful the Australian Standards would be, I've never sighted a copy and never worked for or with anybody that has either.  
If there is a book entitled "How to build a house" I doubt very much that will tell you all there is to know on the subject. If it does then I'm sure a lot of people in the building game could have saved a lot of time doing apprenticeships, getting a few years experience under their belts and doing their builders licence. You say you are going to over engineer your structure. If you pay someone to draw it up properly for you you will more than recoup this cost on the savings on materials.  
Mick

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## chanquetas

As I understand the Timber Framing Code is basically Australian Standard AS1684, which will of course tell me my minimum requirements.
As far as "How to Build a House", dont take me too literally, I will use the TRADAC manuals as guidelines.

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## Dylan SJ

The Timber Framing Manuals allow you to select smaller and cheaper sizes that will do the job.  While I lke to specify larger than minimum sizes there isn't much point wasting money or timber by massively over engineering everything.  Wind bracing, fixing and tie-downs are well detailled in the manuals too. 
You can use AS-1684.4 Residential Timber Framed Construction - Simplified Editition _if:_ 
- Wind classification is N1 or N2 although this rating system recently changed
- The building is largely rectangular, L-shaped or of an essentially rectangular shape
- Maximum 2 storeys/8.5m
- Maximum 12m wide, excluding eaves (in the direction of the rafters/trusses)
- Maximum wall height of 2700, floor to ceiling at the external walls
- Maximum rafter overhang (i.e eaves) of 750
- Maximum roof pitch of 30 degrees 
There are other limitations but they're unlikely to be a problem.  If your plan does not meet these requirements then you need AS-1684.2 and even then, the major difference is higher wind classifications and more choices of timber grades and sizes.  All the tables for 1684.2 are on CD.  Beyond that you need AS-1684.1, which is aimed more at engineers.  Beware that none of these manuals are as simple as the tables of 20 years ago.  Even the simplified edition can require some study to get the most out of it. 
Despite all this, your draftsmen/architect may specify most of the sizes on the plan though many cop out with 'To comply with AS-1684'. 
EDIT: Building regulations are usually state law and they invariably refer to the Building Code of Australia as their construction standard.  The BCA usually details an acceptable method of construction but will allow you to use an acceptable construction manual, usually an Australian Standard.  In the case of timber frame design, they _only_ allow AS-1684.  All the state based timber industry manuals should be based on AS-1684.

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## chanquetas

Thanks Dylan, a very clear and lucid explanation, which has helped me understand things a lot better.

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## aussieglen

Hi Chanquetas,
I relied heavily on the contents of a very helpful Australian book "How to be a successful Owner Builder and Renovator" by Allan Staines which has very clear 3D drawings, illustrations and notes to make the building of almost any structure very satisfying. I can recommend the book as it is easy to read and follow and gives all dimensions and sizes of the appropriate timbers. But I cant rember how much I paid for it - it is now my own reference collection and if you are interested I can lend it to you since you are also living Brisbane. Just contact me privately and we can arrange something.
Aussieglen

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## chanquetas

Thanks for the info Glen. I have ordered the book from a bookshop in the city, but thanks heaps for your kind offer of a loan anyway. Id hate to spill red wine on it...

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## mungus

I believe the current standard is AS1684.2-2006 wich was released in Feb? Between this, the Timber Framing Code and even Allan Staines' book you shouldn't have too much trouble. The only area you will need to getup to speed on is tying a structure down. This is an area often overlooked, particularly with shallow roof pitches in high wind areas. Think of how an aeroplane wing acts, a roof is very similar. I have seen a series of 900mm deep footings be pulled out of the ground, taking more than a metre of dirt with each of them by a 15 deg pitch roof, its scary stuff.
Anyway your certification body/person will need to see all your tie down and footing details well before you start and these will have to be engineered. 
Good luck:eek:

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## willingbark

Try looking on the web for software called 'Timber solutions' , put out by FWPRDC. cheers :2thumbsup:

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## pawnhead

> Try looking on the web for software called 'Timber solutions' , put out by FWPRDC. cheers

  Wow, that's a pretty comprehensive set of span tables. That takes care of everything you'd need to specify. 
Thanks for the heads up willingbark.  :2thumbsup:

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## TARLOX

> Duckman I did say I was going to overengineer it. I think 600mm is too big.

  How do you "overengineer" something if you dont know how to "engineer" it in the first place.

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## pawnhead

To an optimist the glass is half full.
To a pessimist the glass is half empty.
To an engineer it's designed just right, having a 2:1 safety margin.

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## chrisp

> To an engineer it's designed just right, having a 2:1 safety margin.

  I thought it was: 
To an engineer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.  :Smilie:

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## Feralbilly

Hi All.
Have been following this thread with interest as I also believe that Standards Australia overcharge.
Some time back ther was an analogy drawn with AMSA's Marine Orders and Duckman commented to the effect that this was not a true analagy as Australian Standards are produced by scientists, engineers and "other professionals".
Before I retired I was heavily involved in the drawing up of the National Standard for Commercial Vessels, which is the State and Territory equivalent of Marine Orders, and I can assure Duckman that both Marine Orders and the NSCV involved, and still do involve, a vast amount of work by very professional people in the maritime industry. This work in addition to their normal workload and is unpaid. 
While I am not decrying Standards Australia, I still reckon that they are far too expensive. 
Bill

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## pawnhead

> While I am not decrying Standards Australia, I still reckon that they are far too expensive. 
> Bill

  That program posted by willingbark is extremely comprehensive, dealing with every condition imaginable in Australia. However it's also very difficult to use if you're just looking for something more general. Here's a few other links that I picked up browsing these forums: - 
DPR Span Tables,  http://www.fordtimbers.com.au/dpr_span_tables.htm 
Hyne, http://www.hyne.com.au/pagefiles/spantables.htm 
Futurebuild, (Hyjoist, Hybeam, Hyspan, Hychord, LVL beams) http://www.chhfuturebuild.com/WSMApa...0209-1,00.html

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