# Forum Home Renovation Plumbing  plumbing help please.  my solder wont stick!

## Quintin79

hi all 
well i have begun my first soldered copper plumbing job.  pretty simple little job or so i thought until i realised that soldering copper pipe is not as easy as it looks. 
please tell me what i am doing wrong.  i got all my bits from bunnings - a handheld gas torch, a roll of 'plumbing solder', some greasy white flux... i got the pipe and fittings from tradelink. 
i smear some flux over the pipe and fitting and then put them together, then i take to it with the torch.  i heat it for a while until it goes all kinds of colors, maybe 2-3 mins, its not glowing orange yet though i dont think the torch can get it there. 
then i take the pipe from the flame, turn the flame off and apply solder.  to begin with it doesnt spread, it just bubbles up and rolls off but after a few applications it begins to spread.  i get it all the way around the joint and i think its worked.  come back when its cold, its lifted off and the fitting slides right off! 
pls let me know if you have tips. 
thanx 
Q

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## bklooger

if its copper to copper you dont need flux. you need to make sure your copper is clean shiny for the solder to stick, i use steel wool and emery cloth for this.
if its copper to brass you will need flux to make it bond 
try to keep the flame on the join as the solder melts and follow it around. the higher the silver % the easier it runs
thr torch might not be getting the copper hot enough what type of torch did you buy? 
i think you should take some off cuts and practice first 
cheers
brad

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## Bros

> a roll of 'plumbing solder',

  What's that? You can join copper to copper with soft solder, sliver solder both of which need flux and cleaning or phos copper which doesn't need flux or cleaning. It is very easy to join copper it is the easiest material to join. 
What solder have you got?

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## murray44

What sort of gas torch did you buy? If it's just Butane it probably won't be hot enough.

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## Bros

> What sort of gas torch did you buy? If it's just Butane it probably won't be hot enough.

  More than hot enough if it is soft solder.

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## Master Splinter

If it's a 'roll of solder' then it's going to be a tin based solder, which needs flux; if it's a rigid, thin (like a coathanger) rod, then it's a silver solder which doesn't need flux. 
For soft soldering - clean the copper, apply flux, heat, take the torch away and poke the solder at the join.  Capillary action will suck the solder in. 
If you get the copper glowing orange...you've gone waaaay too far.  Solder melts at under 200 degrees, copper at red heat is probably closer to 8-900 degrees.  (Silver solder needs a bit more heat - like 300 degrees, but that's still a long way under red heat). 
If the solder is melting and rolling off, that means that the surface is too hot - and if you are seeing temper colours chasing across the copper, it's possible that you've overheated (and burned) the flux, too. 
Check that it's the right type of flux; my favourite (the name of which I cannot recall) comes in a tin not dissimilar to boot polish, and it has a colour and consistency like a brownish boot polish too.   
You might have picked up a brazing flux (for iron/steel) or one of those weird RoHS compatible (no unicorns or puppies will be harmed by this flux) fluxes designed to be used with non-unicorn harming soft solder, and I've always found them a pain to work with. 
Have a look at these videos - although they keep saying they are doing  'sodering', it looks identical to our process of soldering... 
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPMHJOgm76M"]YouTube - Plumbing - Soldering Copper Pipes[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doqoEJJOdYA&feature=channel"]YouTube - How to Solder Copper Pipe[/ame] 
And some useful plumbing related reading here: http://www.copper.com.au/cdc/article.asp?CID=69&AID=428 http://www.copper.com.au/cdc/article.asp?CID=65&AID=302 
PROTIP: Copper at 400 degrees looks no different to copper at room temperature...this can be pain inducing when you go to pick it up....

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## Gooner

> if its copper to copper you dont need flux. you need to make sure your copper is clean shiny for the solder to stick, i use steel wool and emery cloth for this.
> if its copper to brass you will need flux to make it bond 
> try to keep the flame on the join as the solder melts and follow it around. the higher the silver % the easier it runs
> thr torch might not be getting the copper hot enough what type of torch did you buy? 
> i think you should take some off cuts and practice first 
> cheers
> brad

   :What he said:  Just a few more tips. I have done this job many times with the MAPP torch that Bunnings sells. (And for the record, you're "brazing" the joins, not soldering).  
I assume you are looking to braze copper to copper. In this case, no flux is needed, as already said. Get some very fine sand paper or better yet, steel wool (or both). Polish up all connecting surfaces well before trying to join. 
Now, what size pipes are you looking to join? 1/2" copper is fine. 3/4" and the MAPP torch starts to struggle. It's possible, but harder. Even with 1/2" copper, make sure all the water is drained from your pipes. Any water in the pipes will act as a heat sink and you can sit there and heat up the copper all day and you wont get it hot enough. If you want any hope of soldering 3/4" pipe with this torch, then evacuate all water for at least 2-3 meters from the join. Try and eliminate any potential heat sink near to where you are brazing. 
After polishing the parts, put them together and apply the heat evenly with the hottest part of the flame. When the parts start glowing hot (don't "overcook" them) keep the flame going but apply it from the bottom (6 O'clock) while touching the solder to the top of the pipe (12 O'clock). If it is hot enough, the solder will be "sucked" into the join. You will know immediately it has worked properly when you see it being "sucked" into the join. If it simply "melts" and drips around the join, it hasn't worked properly and may crack in future.  
Also don't apply the heat directly to the solder. This will simply melt the solder. It is essential to get the copper hot enough so it sucks the solder in. When this happens, the join is actually "tougher" than the copper pipe itself. 
As suggested above, use some off-cuts and buy some extra joins and practice. You will get the hang of the best way to apply the heat and see how the solder is sucked into the join when it works properly. 
One other thing, I did have to join a few 3/4" pipes and what I did was make a little "box" out of fibre cement sheeting as an extra way to insulate the join when heating, as I was having a hard time getting the 3/4" pipe hot enough even when water was removed from the pipes. 
Hope this helps.

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## Gooner

Just noticed you mention "roll of solder". This indicates to me you are using soft solder. My post above refers to silver brazing. Bunnings also sells the "hard" straight silver solder rods. If this is a plumbing job, you're probably better off silver soldering the joins. Produces a much strong join.

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## wonderplumb

:Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  :Biggrin:  I love it, old bunnings stooging the DIY'er! Roll of solder = soft solder
             White pasty flux = silver solder flux
Probably getting the pipe too hot aswell which simply burns the soft solder.
Just ask the bloke at bunnings, he'll tell ya!! :Doh:  :Doh:  :Doh: 
People wonder why tradesmen get the shytes with places like bunnings.

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## Quintin79

hey guys thanks so much for the quick and numerous responses.  i hadnt cleaned the pipe with anything as it is all new and looked nice and shiny but i will give that a go.  ill also head to tradelink for the correct solder and flux. 
the only reason i thought that it needed to be red hot was because thats what i have seen my plumber do in the past. 
the brand of solder is something like 'bernz' or something.  same with the gas torch - came as a kit with a reasonably fat bottle.

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## Gooner

> the only reason i thought that it needed to be red hot was because thats what i have seen my plumber do in the past.

  Your plumber would have been silver brazing the joins, not soft soldering.

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## bugsy

whats the cost of a torch, 2x solder, 2x flux now?
your time going to bunnings then home then tradelink then home? 
sounds like it would of been easier just to get "your" plumber to do it. 
not to mention future joint breaks.

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## Bros

> Your plumber would have been silver brazing the joins, not soft soldering.

  Or phos copper which needs no cleaning and no flux unlike silver solder

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## nww1969

x 2 Way to hot. 
Clean with emery cloth and plenty of flux.
As heating, place the solder near the joint every so often until it sweats in to the join,
and roll the solder around the whole joint with out continuing to heat.
This works for me.

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## Gooner

> Or phos copper which needs no cleaning and no flux unlike silver solder

  Brazing copper to copper using silver solder doesn't require flux.

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## Gooner

> whats the cost of a torch, 2x solder, 2x flux now?
> your time going to bunnings then home then tradelink then home? 
> sounds like it would of been easier just to get "your" plumber to do it. 
> not to mention future joint breaks.

  Depending on what he is doing, and putting aside the legalities of it for now; 
MAPP torch costs around $80
Solder is cheap as is flux. Lets say, another $40 - $50 max. 
Thats around $130. Chances are you won't be getting a plumber in at that rate. Also, once the technicque is learned and you have the gear, it can save you a few bucks down the line if you need to do some simple joining. Doesn't necessarily have to be plumbing attached to mains water line. Could be legal stuff you are working on. 
My advice would be not to try a DIY job that involves any joins that will be concealed in a wall or in a place where a leak would not be detected until it has already caused potentially costly damage.  
I admit I have used this MAPP torch for some of my plumbing under the house on 1/2" copper. If it leaks, it will leak onto the ground and I see it every time I go under there (which is often as it is a storage area).

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## nww1969

> Depending on what he is doing, and putting aside the legalities of it for now; 
> MAPP torch costs around $80
> Solder is cheap as is flux. Lets say, another $40 - $50 max. 
> Thats around $130. Chances are you won't be getting a plumber in at that rate. Also, once the technicque is learned and you have the gear, it can save you a few bucks down the line if you need to do some simple joining. Doesn't necessarily have to be plumbing attached to mains water line. Could be legal stuff you are working on. 
> My advice would be not to try a DIY job that involves any joins that will be concealed in a wall or in a place where a leak would not be detected until it has already caused potentially costly damage.  
> I admit I have used this MAPP torch for some of my plumbing under the house on 1/2" copper. If it leaks, it will leak onto the ground and I see it every time I go under there (which is often as it is a storage area).

  Good advice re the leaking in concealed areas. 
I have slightly overcome this by having the the hole from the bottom bearer where 
the copper pipe comes through twice the size and left unsealed so if the joint leaks 
it should leak down the pipe through the hole to the ground instead of in the wall.

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## rrobor

My method. First that grease I found worthless so get a bottle of bakers fluid. Main thing with soft lead solder is to clean the joint. Wad of steel wool and get the pipe and connector bright and spotless. With a cotton bud etc wet the cleaned surfaces with bakers fluid and put them together. Now apply heat and heat the joint for a few seconds with the torch. Once its a bit hot apply the soldrer to the joint  where the flame isnt hitting. Continue heating the joint till the solder melts and sucks in. At that point remove the flame and check the solder is fully round the joint. Your problems as I see them 1/ bad flux 2/ dirty joinrts and 3/ excess heat. Point to note NEVER EVER use bakers fluid as flux for solder on electrical/electronic connections.

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## Quintin79

> whats the cost of a torch, 2x solder, 2x flux now?
> your time going to bunnings then home then tradelink then home? 
> sounds like it would of been easier just to get "your" plumber to do it. 
> not to mention future joint breaks.

  none of this is an issue, the job is one i have been looking forward to learning believe it or not.   

> Depending on what he is doing, and putting aside the legalities of it for now; 
> MAPP torch costs around $80
> Solder is cheap as is flux. Lets say, another $40 - $50 max. 
> Thats around $130. Chances are you won't be getting a plumber in at that rate. Also, once the technicque is learned and you have the gear, it can save you a few bucks down the line if you need to do some simple joining. Doesn't necessarily have to be plumbing attached to mains water line. Could be legal stuff you are working on. 
> My advice would be not to try a DIY job that involves any joins that will be concealed in a wall or in a place where a leak would not be detected until it has already caused potentially costly damage.

  yeah good call, none of these joins are inside a wall, im running them around the inside of my laundry cabinet 
where would i find a mapp torch for that much.  i just came home with some silver solder and my silly propane torch wont get it hot enough.

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## Quintin79

> My method. First that grease I found worthless so get a bottle of bakers fluid. Main thing with soft lead solder is to clean the joint. Wad of steel wool and get the pipe and connector bright and spotless. With a cotton bud etc wet the cleaned surfaces with bakers fluid and put them together. Now apply heat and heat the joint for a few seconds with the torch. Once its a bit hot apply the soldrer to the joint where the flame isnt hitting. Continue heating the joint till the solder melts and sucks in. At that point remove the flame and check the solder is fully round the joint. Your problems as I see them 1/ bad flux 2/ dirty joinrts and 3/ excess heat. Point to note NEVER EVER use bakers fluid as flux for solder on electrical/electronic connections.

  why would one use silver solder over soft solder? 
im still not sure on why i would choose one over the other.  i now have both but am beginning to think soft solder is not good enough for laundry/kitchen/bathroom?

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## Bros

> Brazing copper to copper using silver solder doesn't require flux.

  I have a feeling we could be talking about different things here. The stuff I call silver solder is sold in sticks of 5 is only available in 1.6 mm sticks and is a silvery colour and is quite stiff and not cheap as it has a high composition of silver. With this silver solder you can only use close fitting joints and flux is a must. If it is done right you heat the joint up to the correct temperature and just touch the joint in one place and the solder runs around the joint and by capiliary action into the joint. This is the strongest joint you can get as well as the most expensive.
Then there is the brazing where the joint doesn't have to be cleaned and no flux is needed. These rods are 2.5 mm diameter and have a coppery colour and are not expensive as their silver content is low. 
The last is soft solder which requires low temperature and flux. It also works on capilary action drawing the solder into the joint for strength and sealing.
I was at Bunnings today and from the OP post he bought "silver plumbing solder" from the price there couldn't be much silver in it maybe it was the colour. The packet said flux is a must and a tin of flux was beside it. My comment now is that the joint was way to hot for the solder and he burnt up all the flux as at the right temperature just touching the solder on the joint will cause it to run around the joint and be sucked into the close fitting spaces.

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## Master Splinter

The good point for soft solder is that if you manage to make a complete 'whoops, I shouldn't have put that bit on there' with it, you can heat it up and disassemble the joint, then clean and reuse the fittings.  This is useful if its 9pm and the dishwasher really needs to be put on_ soon_. 
With phos-copper/silver solder, this is not really possible - it's a much more permanent joint so reworking it is not an option. 
And for all those who think you need MAPP gas for silver soldering - I've happily had the larger size copper pipe glowing red with BBQ gas - you just need to make sure your torch has a large enough burner to put out a decent amount of flame; you're not going to do it with a burner the diameter of a pencil.

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## aljolson

Im with master splinter, I get the bends A about F too often for silver solder. And lets face it lead solder has been used  since copper pipes started and no one had a flood from any well done joint. Silver solder is the new kid on the block.

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## wonderplumb

> why would one use silver solder over soft solder? 
> im still not sure on why i would choose one over the other.  i now have both but am beginning to think soft solder is not good enough for laundry/kitchen/bathroom?

  Why would one use soft solder over silver? 
And all the blokes saying they wont do their own work inside a wall or only do it where they say they can see it.......... sort of begs the question why do it at all if your so lacking in confidence in your own work? :Confused: 
Silver soldering with a MAPP torch, even though it can be done is a shytefight unless your using 15% silver solder or higher.

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## wonderplumb

> With phos-copper/silver solder, this is not really possible - it's a much more permanent joint so reworking it is not an option

  Of course you can re work them!.   

> And for all those who think you need MAPP gas for silver soldering - I've happily had the larger size copper pipe glowing red with BBQ gas - you just need to make sure your torch has a large enough burner to put out a decent amount of flame;

  How long does this take you and how would you weld a joint in under the house or in a timber frame without burning the house down using such a massive flame?
The only real successful way to use LPG is oxy/lpg  which a few of the tightwads around here use but still not hot enough IMO and takes too long to get a joint up to heat, especially getting up over 1" pipe. 
Just remember when your plugging away with your turbo torch your pipe might get nice and red but you are trying to solder two thicknesses of pipe together. Your solder might suck into the fitting nicely but may stick only to the inside of the fitting and not necessarily the pipe itself....... im talking silver solder as it also relies on an inter- granular attraction where the heat makes "pores" open up on the surface of the copper pipe which draw in the silver solder. 
Soft solder is just soft solder and simply sticks itself to the pipe, eventually deteriorating to the point where you can pull apart joints with your bare hands.

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## rrobor

Plumbers were around long before Jesus was a carpenteris is very true. The Romans used lead. Lead is one of the fastest oxidising metals there is. But once it has a skin of oxide that oxide acts as a barrier to oxidisation to the rest, and a lead pipe will outlast any other type of pipe. The lead on european castle roofs is still there centuaries after, whilst  the copper and welds of The statue of Liberty are being re-done, as they have rotted away.

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## Vernonv

Rob, another interesting post :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): , but you can't compare lead pipes and roofs to soft solder used in plumbing. They are two different materials (soft solder being lead/tin mix) and are certainly different applications.  
As an example of what Wonderplumb is talking about - we renovated out late 70's bathroom last year and when removing the old plumbing fittings found that the soft solder had "let go" on several joins. We could literally pull apart the fittings with very little effort.  
Silver solder is the superior (and safer) product to use for joining copper pipes.

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## Master Splinter

> How long does this take you and how would you weld a joint in under the house or in a timber frame without burning the house down using such a massive flame?

  Takes about 30 seconds to get to silver soldering temperature on 1/2 inch (5/8??  3/4??...whatever the larger domestic size is) for the first join, if there are more nearby (same tee) those will be ready after a few extra seconds of direct heating.   
Never had a problem with uneven heating, for either silver solder or soft solder - but then, I've never worked on anything over one inch...at least, not without an oxy torch and a secondary burner when welding copper. 
I've never needed to use the torch on full blast on in-situ tubing - only ever come across the smaller diameter pipes. Plumbers here seem to be in love with the smaller stuff...its very rare to see anything larger past the first connection point to the house.

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## murray44

All this talk about copper pipes and brazing/soldering......I've got a hankering to buy some plastic pipe and mechanical crimps.

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