# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  Process of changing normal globes to downlights?

## Mcblurter

No not going to do it myself!!!!
Just on my quest of knowledge that I don't already possess.  We are doing a reno and have two lights in the kitchen that use normal screw in bulbs.  I want to change these to downlights and was wondering what the process is.  I am assuming that the wiring will remain the same but a different connection will be installed?  
Is that a pretty simple/cheap job (any ideas on cost of fittings and labour?)
Cheers
McBlurter

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## manoftalent

as previously posted several times before mate, your not likely to get a response due to the legalities of advising someone who is obviously not a registered electrician on how to change a setup, so ya best bet and safest for your own safety ( yes we do care about ya)...ring up a sparky and explain to him over the phone what you want and get an estimate cost for the job ....save ya pennies and get them to do it for ya, we skimp a lot in life, but when it comes down to safety for you, your family and your home .....get someone who knows what they are doing, and cut costs somewhere else to pay for it ......its just not worth the lousy few bucks saved ....to place those you love at risk.  
gets off soapbox .....and waves  :2thumbsup:

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## rod1949

A hole need to cut into the ceiling that will take the size of the downlight.  The downlight has spring clips on its sides that hold it in place in the hold.

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## silentC

If you're talking about swapping them for halogens, the fitting itself is pretty cheap. For 12v you're looking at about $20 per (with globe). For 240v around $10 per (without). You'll want to look into the different types of globe etc. with regard to the lighting you need and the power consumption. 
As for the wiring, that's an unknown quantity. Don't just assume it's a simple swap out because it depends on what is there now and whether it is up to standards. You may find that the sparky has to upgrade the installation if it is old or has been done by a DIYer. 
Best bet is to get a sparky to swing by and have a look.

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## Mcblurter

I thought I had made it perfectly clear that I am not going to do it myself!!!!!! :No:    I know nothing about electrical stuff, hence asking the question.  I have read a few threads of people wanting to DIY wiring and I also think they are mad!!!! I like to know a bit about what I am talking about so I don't waste my electricians valuable time explaining (or in some cases, not explaining) what needs to be done.  I am asking for some very general knowledge, not which wire do I connect to which socket!  I work full time so often aren't at home when plumbers, electricians etc are there, so sometimes I have to relay, or answer questions via my wife.
So back to the question!
So assuming the wiring is in good condition and up to standards then it is a pretty simple, quick job?  Silentc you mention 12v and 240v.  I'm looking at some of the compact fluro's 9w GU10 globes, would I need 12v or 240v?  Are normal globes 240v, if so why would you put a 12v one in?
Cheers
McBlurter 
Just about to perform some brain surgery on myself, having asked a brain surgery forum question about the hypothalmus! :Biggrin:

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## silentC

I believe that the GU10 globes require a 240v fitting. 
To be honest, I don't really know why people still put in 12v halogens - I did but that was because I didn't know any better. There was a time when the 240v globes didn't exist, and then there was a time when they were difficult to get and quite expensive. I think those times have now gone. 
As for what has to be done in the ceiling, the actual wiring requirements aren't any different in terms of what wires need to run from the meter box and the switch (as far as I know), so if it's all in good order, the sparky should be able to just get up there and swap them out.

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## Mcblurter

Thanks Silentc, just the info I was needing, much appreciated.
Cheers
McBlurter

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## patty

> No not going to do it myself!!!!
> Just on my quest of knowledge that I don't already possess. We are doing a reno and have two lights in the kitchen that use normal screw in bulbs. I want to change these to downlights and was wondering what the process is. I am assuming that the wiring will remain the same but a different connection will be installed? 
> Is that a pretty simple/cheap job (any ideas on cost of fittings and labour?)
> Cheers
> McBlurter

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## Pulse

Jeez manoftalent,
someone evens mentions the word electr*city and gets his head bitten off! 
McBlurter, the answer depends on how many lights you need. If you replaced the current fittings with GU10 bulbs it might end up a bit dark. You probably need 50W above the sink, 50W above each work space and about 150W of general room lighting. 20W halogens are good recessed into the overheard cupboards. A sparky might charge you $60 per downlight. 
A good way to save money is to ask him to terminate the wires to a socket outlet connection, then you can plug in your own transformers via flex and fit the lights yourself.... definitely legal and pretty simple too. 
For example one of these surface mount socket outlets: 
Cheers
Pulse

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## patty

mcblurter
i assume you have a directional spot light of some type especially if it is a screw in type...as i have not seen a screw in batten holder for some time.  this will be screwed to a roof joist or batten there are two types of downlights fixed type which is normally a 70 mm cut out hole  and gimbal which is usually 92mm hole and as some of the other members have rightfully said the spark will have to move your light so he can recess the downlight into the roof and the spring clips sit on the gyprock..downlight kits are cheap as chips today you can buy a 10 pack from bunnings for about 120 bucks if ya want to save ya self some cash buy the fitting remebering with the gimbal type you can adjust to aim the direction of the lamp but being in a kitchen you really should have one over the sink and anywhere like an island bench for instance the I dont kno how old your house is because if it has not been re-wired and the house has all the split steel conduit the spark will really not want to know about it.. if it has been rewired in tps i assume he would charge you to install 2 d/lights about $200 for about 1.5 hrs work and also when he is installing the downlights make sure he puts a flex and plug on the transformer which he will have to supply two plug bases so when the transformer inevitably carks it all you have to do is reach up through the hole and unplug it and swap the transformers around replacement transformers are about 15 - 18 bucks each replacement lamps are about 4.00 each but buy the d/lights in a kit because if the spark buys them you can guarantee he will put his 20&#37; on after all this has been said you dont have a flat roof do you? there is access through a manhole?

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## silentC

Hey patty, the full stop key is down there on the second row from the bottom, two to the left of the Shift key  :Rolleyes:    :Smilie:  
BTW I have screw type batten holders in my outside lights and I bought them about 12 months ago.

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## patty

cheers silentc I got a bit carried away

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## silentC

No worries mate, I nearly ran out of breath trying to read it  :Biggrin:  Good advice though...

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## Mcblurter

Thanks for the extra info everyone, head has been put back in place after a quick chat on the surgery forum.
At present in the kitchen we have 4 lights in the ceiling.  They are normal screw in globes.  They are sort of like downlights in that the globe screws in above ceiling height.  Has enough light but look crap!!!!
We are putting in an openable skylight as room is dark during the day and would prefer natural to electric light.  Plan to put three pendant lights above bench where we often eat (on seperate switches so can have all on or one on).  But need two more lights near sink for extra light, but don't want them to clash with pendants so felt that downlights would be best option.  We won't use these lights a lot, only when need extra light for the sink.  Not a very big room (about 4m x 4m) so thinking two downlights over sink should be sufficient.
Hoping to get away with using the same holes for downlights, although it may be slightly bigger than the downlights I've seen?
Cheers
McBlurter

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## patty

no worries mate so you have existing downlights already why didnt you say so.... to change these.... to new 12 v halogen is easy you can buy an adaptor plate which will cover the existing hole... to allow you to use your new either gimbal or fixed downlights you want to put in just measure the hole opening and take your measurements to the local elect wholesaler and ask for an adaptor plate to covert the old style reflector type d/light to the new halogens whilst you are there pick up the downlights to suit as the adaptor plates are made for both 70 mm and 92 mm holes

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## manoftalent

My son once said He would never try drugs ....now He has hep c and will carry it for the rest of His life, I have become cynical I suppose, and for that I appologise, I did not intend for my post to "jump down" someones throat, after all it is hard to judge if someone is truthful or not on a forum, I just happen to care for my fellow man a bit more than most I suppose, if any offence was taken, then I appologise for that too, it was never intended ...

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## Mcblurter

Manoftalent I have read previous threads where people do want to put themselves at risk so I understand your concern for people's safety and appreciate your concern.
I also understand a lot about drugs and hep c as I have worked in this field for 17 years.  I wish you and your son all the best.  People can live pretty normal lives these days with the various treatments on offer.
Patty thanks for your info, I now know what to ask for at the lighting shop!
Thanks everyone.
Cheers
McBlurter

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## Learner

> No not going to do it myself!!!!
> Just on my quest of knowledge that I don't already possess.  We are doing a reno and have two lights in the kitchen that use normal screw in bulbs.  I want to change these to downlights and was wondering what the process is.  I am assuming that the wiring will remain the same but a different connection will be installed?  
> Is that a pretty simple/cheap job (any ideas on cost of fittings and labour?)
> Cheers
> McBlurter

  I do not recommend downlights. I am an electronics engineer and was involved with the electronic transformer design of these units. The transformers are efficient but lamps and fittings get heated. Also require special handling of the globes. You cannot touch them with fingers while installing the globes. 
The best and cheapest option is standard fluorescent lights.  
Solid -state lighting is the future. SSL creates visible light with reduced heat generation or parasitic energy dissipation. In addition, its solid-state nature provides for greater resistance to shock, vibration, and wear, thereby increasing its lifespan significantly. Costs will reduce in future. LEDs have the potential to achieve 90&#37;+ conversion efficiencies as a *light* source  Solid state lighting promises    to create unprecedented changes in what we can do with light. Simultaneously,    it will deliver on a promise of massive global energy savings and access to    useful nighttime lighting that has not been conveniently available to nearly    2 billion people around the world. 
Consider this: Halogen filament lamps used in headlights have already been replaced by LED's in LEXUS Automotive headlights. Downlights are hologen lamps  *Lexus* has unveiled the LS600h L  *...* It also has the first *LED* front *headlights* of any production vehicle.

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## silentC

> I do not recommend downlights. I am an electronics engineer and was involved with the electronic transformer design of these units.

  So what you are saying is you did a shyte job?

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## Learner

> So what you are saying is you did a shyte job?

  Ignoring your attempted insult. Surprised you  tried this crude reply-attack on this decent board. 
No I did not design the electronic transformers from scratch. As you are aware most of the circuits are taken from application notes by semiconductor manufacturers. Most brands are very similar in circuitry. This is because they are price sensitive items. They have to be very reliable and meet Australian standards for both lighting electronic equipment  and electromagnetic compatability. 
I do not like the bulbs because they waste energy as heat. Besides down lights are not optimum light sources.

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## silentC

> Ignoring your attempted insult

  So how come you replied? 
I amused myself anyway, which was my main object. It _is_ funny: "I was involved in the design but they're no good". Classic! 
You want to _learn_ to _light_en up a bit.  
Anyway, to your other points, yes I'm sure LEDs are going to be the standard one day. A bit pricey at the moment though. It will be awhile before you see them in the average home I reckon. In the meantime, you can cut down energy comsumption by switching to different globes.

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## Learner



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## patty

Learner what is the wattage of this unit?

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## Learner



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## Learner

> Learner what is the wattage of this unit?

  100 Watts

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## Learner

The 48 inch S model provides the equivalent light output of a 40 watt tube while consuming only 25 watts  *EverLED TR fluorescent tube replacement allows pop-in conversion to LEDs  http://www.ledsmagazine.com/press/15167*

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## patty

cool looks good thx for the link will check it out

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## silentC

Have you got any links to pricing info?

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## Learner

> Have you got any links to pricing info?

  Price is very high for the fluoro tubes. It is like the flash USB memory stick when first introduced in the market. We can expect the price to fall in few years.  
The rich boys will buy these products as toys. After 2-4 years the price will be reasonable for the common man to afford.

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## silentC

That's what I thought but I couldn't find any prices on the LED lighting sites I checked. 
I know that standard fluoro is the most economical as you say, but it's not exactly the most attractive. We've talked about dimming etc. of fluoro on other threads as a disadvantage. There are the fluoro replacement globes for standard halogen globes. 
I think what people want at the moment is something that is as effective as what it is replacing, that uses less power, and isn't going to take them a number of years to realise the runnning cost saving over the cost of purchase. 
You might say to wait until LED is cheaper, but as you say that could be a number of years away. When an LED lamp is around the same cost as a halogen, then I think all new houses will go that way, rather than halogen. 
In the meantime, isn't it hard to recommend LED as a viable alternative?

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## Learner

> That's what I thought but I couldn't find any prices on the LED lighting sites I checked. 
> IYou might say to wait until LED is cheaper, but as you say that could be a number of years away. When an LED lamp is around the same cost as a halogen, then I think all new houses will go that way, rather than halogen. 
> In the meantime, isn't it hard to recommend LED as a viable alternative?

  I don't like making holes in the ceiling roof  to install down lights and wiring transformers  also because of the high lamp temperature. 
Besides I hate putting electronic circuitry in the roof. Some people do all the wrong things and buy cheap magnetic transformers without adequate thermal protection, poor quality fittings and make their houses potential fire hazards. On a hot summer day the temperature in the roof area may be quite high.Because the halogen lamp operates at very high temperatures, it can pose fire and burn hazards. 
Quality halogen incandescents are closer to 9% efficiency, 
Because the lamp must be very hot to prevent crystallization of WO<sub>2</sub>I<sub>2</sub> or WO<sub>2</sub>Br<sub>2</sub> at the glass surface, the halogen lamp's envelope must be made of hard glass or fused quartz, instead of ordinary soft glass which would soften and flow too much at these temperatures. The envelope material can be selected and modified (by means of optical coating) to achieve whatever lamp characteristics are required. Lamp bulbs' envelopes are made out of hard glass, or out of quartz 'doped' with additives to block most of the UV output (hard glass blocks UV without need of dopants).  *
Handling precautions* 
 Any surface contamination, notably fingerprints, can damage the quartz envelope when it is heated. Contaminants, such as oil and other skin residue naturally deposited by fingerprints will, unless removed, create a hot spot on the bulb surface when the bulb is turned on. This extreme, localized heat causes the quartz to change from its vitreous form into a weaker, crystalline form which leaks gas. This weakening may also cause the bulb to rapidly form a bubble, thereby weakening the bulb and leading to its failure or explosion, and creating a serious safety hazard. Consequently, quartz lamps should be handled without ever touching the clear quartz, either by using a clean paper towel or carefully holding the porcelain base. If the quartz is contaminated in any way, it must be thoroughly cleaned with rubbing alcohol and dried before use. 
I just use compact fluorescent lamps (CFLs). They are now available as low as $5. Dimming versions are also available at higher cost made by GE and sold in Australia. They work with standard triac  dimmers.  http://www.environmentshop.com.au/Pr...s.asp?PID=3142 
You also have a dimmable compact fluoro halogen downlight replacement version. See link below  http://www.environmentshop.com.au/Pr...s.asp?PID=3217 
Although electronic transformers for halogen downlights do not use electrolytic capacitors in their circuitry and hence have a very long life, I prefer CFLs just because they are so cheap and energy efficient. 
And with down lights when something is not working properly you have to get into small roof spaces. A bayonet CFL is so easy to replace. Even a child can do it! 
Australian government is banning incandescent lamps from 2012. Although halogen lamps may not fall in this category, they will be next to follow. Remember they are are also filament lamps  http://www.environment.gov.au/minist.../mr20feb07.pdf 
A typical halogen lamp is designed to run for about 2000 hours, twice as long as a typical incandescent lamp. A CFL is designed to run 8,000 to 10,000 hours even after designing with electrolytic capacitors in the ballast circuitry.

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## Bleedin Thumb

How many woodies does it take to change a light fitting?      
3.
One to change the light fitting and two to tell him its illegal

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## patty

What the?

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## Vernonv

> One to change the light fitting and two to tell him its illegal

  Classic!! 
Kind of sums up the current forum attitudes/responses to asking anything even mildly related to electrickery :Wink:  .

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## silentC

This is the problem for me: One of those fluoro replacement globes costs $40. A halogen lamp can be had for a couple of bucks. The energy saving is 39 watts per globe, which is about half a cent per hour at full power. So it will take about 6495 hours to recover the cost, which is about 2/3 the life of the globe. 
I know there are other reasons for doing it, but if I had to buy one of them for every light fitting in my house, it would cost me around $1600 to save about $5 a quarter on my electricity bill. 
Lighting just isn't a big enough factor in my bill to make it worthwhile. There are other things that would give me a much bigger pay off, like switching off the beer fridge. That would save me about $20 a quarter and cost me nothing.

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## patty

yes lighting companies have been shafting the consumers for years on the price of low energy consuming lamps these have really only started to come down in price in the last 4 years and still are as dear as poison the same will be with leds they will milk the consumers for all they can get whilst they release poor prototypes and charge like wounded bulls for them... hate to say it but they got us by the shortn curlys...

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## Learner

> yes lighting companies have been shafting the consumers for years on the price of low energy consuming lamps these have really only started to come down in price in the last 4 years and still are as dear as poison the same will be with leds they will milk the consumers for all they can get whilst they release poor prototypes and charge like wounded bulls for them... hate to say it but they got us by the shortn curlys...

  The price of products is determined by manufacturing volumes. Standard non-dimmable CFL's are now made in china in large volumes and different shapes.The price has fallen to around $5.00. When first introduced 12-15 years ago they cost around $27.00 - 30.00. Same is true for any consumer item like televisions.

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## patty

very true its all about supply and demand but the energy authority/government should come in and do something about it to make products that have a positive effect not only on your wallet but the environment more affordable

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## Learner

http://www.ledlightingfixtures.com/

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## journeyman Mick

> ...............There are other things that would give me a much bigger pay off, like switching off the beer fridge. That would save me about $20 a quarter and cost me nothing.

   :Shock:   :Shock:   :Shock:   :Shock:    
Mick

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## silentC

My God, what am I saying?! 
Kids, sorry but your playstation has to go!   :Smilie:

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## Skylark

I am quite bemused by all of this sometimes unnecessary extravagance, that householders will go to installing these fancy new "low voltage" down light fittings. No offence, but why fix something if ain't broke? Considering that alot of people are now going along and embracing an energy efficient culture, why would you want to intall these fancy things that end up costing ALOT MORE $$$$$$$ in the long run, even more than the proverbial incandescent light bulb!  :Shock:   
I think alot of people have been in a mad rush to buy these highly inefficient devices, simply because they see the words "LOW VOLTAGE", and are thus oblivious to the fact that you measure power use in WATTS (not VOLTS, which is the electrical pressure that pushes electrons). :Doh:   
Simple Ohms Law at work; P (power) = V (voltage) * I (current) 
Remembering that these fancy fittings come with transformers that have to reduce 240V down to 12V, which is quite a substantial reduction. I think that these things are simply used for the wrong application, perhaps a boat or an aircraft where those machines don't have the capacity to produce electricty or use it at such high voltages.  
I would just stick with fluroecent light fittings, which have a high energy efficiency of 90%+.  
Just my two cents worth. :Wink 1:

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## Bleedin Thumb

I agree with you Skylark except that the light given off by fluoro's suck and you can't dim them....but besides that they're the bee's knees. :Wink:

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## patty

yeh cheers for the tech class skylark it bought back some shockin memories 15 years back

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## silentC

> I am quite bemused by all of this sometimes unnecessary extravagance, that householders will go to installing these *fancy new* "low voltage" down light fittings.

  So exactly how long have 12volt downlights been in use?  

> Remembering that these fancy fittings come with transformers that have to reduce 240V down to 12V

  That's not very unusual. Just about every appliance I can think of in my house, apart from the stove, dishwasher and the washing machine, has a transformer in it.  

> fluroecent light fittings

  You'll need to learn to spell that before the exam...

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## silentC

Hey Skylark, if you have a problem with something I said, why not address it in the open, rather than just sending me a red? 
What am I "misinformed" about? That 12v lighting is not exactly "fancy" and "new", that plenty of other electrical appliances have transformers that reduce 240v down to all sorts of other voltages, or are you just annoyed that I picked you up on your spelling? Come on, educate me.  :Smilie:

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## patty

now now silent he was just showing off his electrical expertise in the subject you know how keen apprentices are

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## patty

ohms law is the first thing they teach you in 1st year at tech

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## silentC

I was just wondering how old the text books are with all this talk of fancy new 12 volt lighting.  :Tongue:  
I learned ohms law in high school!! 
But I forgot it  :Frown:

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## patty

thats what im saying matey he's an apprentice! ohms law just remember draw a triangle put a line thru the guts of it and put V in the top box and IR underneath bloody scaring myself here havent done that for years

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## Skylark

Looks like I have cooked up a silent storm, for everyone to see.  
Don't take a red from me too seriously, silentC, but I felt you pinned me down on points that I had never disputed with you in the first place. Let me clear up this minsunderstanding.  
I don't doubt most applicances have in built transformers, but I wouldn't go so far as to label a light bulb as an appliance, rather as an accessory considering its low tech simplicity. Unless of course you want to opt for the "low voltage" solution, which would then involve our friend Mr. Transformer, and in turn be termed as an appliance.  
In realtion to lights, I have never said that 12 Volt lights are "new" in the sense that they are the latest gadget to come out onto the electrical market. Rather, "new" was used to differentiate from older models, so as to eliminate any ambiguity that might have arisen. Much the opposite though! :Doh:   
And no, getting cut up over something as trivial as a spelling error is the least of my worries. We will leave child's play for another day.  
Until next time, keep on smiling. :Biggrin:

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## Bleedin Thumb

I didn't think you could issue reds untill you had a certain amount of posts on the board? Have the rules changed? 
PS Skylark you shouldn't issued reds lightly (unless your names Gumby :Biggrin:  )

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## patty

alright now we have all made some valid points and any feedback is good feedback it gets"us"talking but i think we have strayed away from the original question posed! ets put it to bed

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## silentC

> I don't doubt most applicances have in built transformers, but I wouldn't go so far as to label a light bulb as an appliance, rather as an accessory considering its low tech simplicity.

  Well we won't get into a debate about whether or not a light is an electrical appliance, that's not actually what I'm saying. You suggested that 12 volt lighting is bad because it relies on a transformer that reduces 240 volts down to 12 volts and you expressed the opinion that they would be better suited to a boat or somewhere that 240 volts was not available. I merely pointed out that there are actually very few electrical appliances in the average house that DO use a full 240 volts. Consider things like TVs, stereos, radios, computers, Playstation games, clocks. Most of these items are at least on standby all day long, whereas lights are only on for a few hours a night and they are all sitting there busily reducing 240 volts down to whatever they run on. 
If I look out my window across the street, there is a very large box the size of a fridge hanging from a power pole. I suspect it is full of copper wire and oil and I think it's job is to reduce high voltage lines down to 240 volts. 
Now if you want to give me some science on why this a bad thing for lighting in particular, then I'm eager to hear it.   

> I am quite bemused by all of this sometimes unnecessary extravagance, that householders will go to installing these fancy new "low voltage" down light fittings.

  I'm not sure how this was eliminating ambiguity, but no matter how I read it, "fancy new" sort of sounds like they only came out last week.  
Don't worry, I've got a thick skin when it comes to those reddies. But it is a bit cheeky to hand one out to someone you've just met without even challenging the remarks that have upset you. 
It's also a bit galling to be told by an 18 year old that I'm misinformed. That just cannot be allowed.

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## Skylark

Hmmm, <sigh>, this is almost like a runaway train.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):   
Silentc, you have definitely lost the essence of my original proposition to this forum, and have unfortunately gone on this tangent of yours. Thus, you have not understood what I was originally pointing out.   

> Now if you want to give me some science on why this a bad thing for lighting in particular, then I'm eager to hear it.

  This is not rocket science, so I am not getting involved in unnecessary scientific bravado here. Secondly, I had never claimed that there was anything wrong with the use of transfromers for lighting. In fact, I was suggesting that it was financially wiser to choose florescent lights because of their higher efficiency rating, and that running incandescent lights would actually be cheaper when compared to the low voltage lighting alternative.     

> Don't worry, I've got a *thick skin* when it comes to those reddies. But it is a bit cheeky to hand one out to someone you've just met without even challenging the remarks that have upset you.

  I have doubts about that skin of yours. If it was that thick, then you wouldn't have complained publicly about my correspondence that upset you. And yes, I did challenge you, why do you think I sent you those reddies?   

> It's also a bit galling to be told by an 18 year old that I'm 
> misinformed. That just cannot be allowed.

  Galling? That is an understatement to say the least when compared to that preposterous comment of yours. The old adage that experience comes with age can only go so far with you, silentc. There will come such a time in where a younger person might be right on something, just when you get it totally wrong :No:  . What then, go on the attack? I can clearly see that you don't take too kindly to criticism that is directed to you from someone younger. That is not to say someone younger is an authority on everything, same goes with an older person. 
Possessing a tinge of open-mindedness would be virtue for you silentc, rather than succumbing to sheer arrogance, using age as your sanctimonious shield. Just think outside the square, for once. 
Enough of the soap opera, now back to your scheduled programming........

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## silentC

> I had never claimed that there was anything wrong with the use of transfromers for lighting.

   

> Remembering that these fancy fittings come with transformers that have to reduce 240V down to 12V, *which is quite a substantial reduction*.

  Isn't this your point? You're saying this is a bad thing. Or maybe I'm misinformed about your point.  

> This is not rocket science

  So explain it. I might learn something. Learner told me on a previous page that the transformers are efficient, it's the lamps that are energy wasting - they waste energy as heat (like incandescant bulbs).  

> If it was that thick, then you wouldn't have complained publicly

  To the contrary, if I was upset about it I would take revenge by doing the same to you, or asking the mods to revert it. Instead, I'm publicly debating you instead of secretly firing off a red. Notice I haven't done that, I don't think they serve any purpose other than to p!ss people off. I think it's better to say what you think in the open forum.   

> There will come such a time in where a younger person might be right on something ...

  You're right, I probably shouldn't have made a comment about your age, that isn't playing the ball. But, you know if you go around calling people misinformed, they are going to get a bit annoyed with you, it is a bit condescending.  

> I can clearly see that you don't take too kindly to criticism that is directed to you from someone younger.

  Water off a duck's back, sonny  :Smilie:

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## Mcblurter

Ahhhhh the joys of forums!!!!!
Thanks everyone for the informative and entertaining replies, you have all added to my knowledge, thank you.  Will no doubt be hearing from me again soon!
Cheers
McBlurter

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## silentC

No worries!! 
Sorry for hijacking your thread, but it's a bit slow at work at the moment.  :Smilie:

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## Mcblurter

Yeah I'm far too busy at home to spend time on this forum!  Work time is the only chance I get!  
I'd always rather get 4 pages of replies than just one reply.  Sometimes the tangents can be just as beneficial, if not at least entertaining!
Cheers
McBlurter

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## silentC

The thing about all this is that people spout all this stuff but they don't back it up with facts. 
I have no electrical training whatsoever. I wanted to know how much power my downlights were using, so I plugged in a meter that I borrowed from Country Energy and guess what? A 50w halogen globe uses 50 watts of electricity. Not really any surprises there. 
The reason why halogens use more is because people put them in banks of 4 or 6 in an area in which they would have traditionally run a single 100 watt globe, or maybe a pair of 60s. The lights themselves aren't less efficient in terms of the power they use individually, but because of the design of the globe and fitting, they don't throw out as much light. It's highly directional, rather than the broadcast pattern of a normal globe. 
I had 240 volt downlights in a bedroom once. They used two normal incandescant globes but the light that came from one of them was less than a single surface mounted batten holder would have been. So that was costing me double in terms of electricity. 
Sparkies often say that fluoros are the most economical. I have no reason to doubt that. But who is going to put fluoros in every room? It just isn't going to  happen because people are more concerned about the look. Maybe if electricity triples in price, then lighting might become a factor to look at. 
I monitored the electricty use in my house for several weeks with that meter and lighting is such a small percentage of the total consumption, even with the fancy new halogens everywhere, that it's just not on the radar. 
As far as lighting goes, yes I'm sure halogens are down there with the least efficient. But they look good, that's why people use them. One day soon enough we will have a viable alternative that is cheap to run, but in the meantime I've got other things to worry about.

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