# Forum Home Renovation Doors, Windows, Architraves & Skirts  The Great Cedar Window Coating Contest

## BrettS

*The Back-story* 
This story begins with the construction four years ago of a two storey Melbourne house, with thirty-four double glazed windows that have window frames of western red cedar.   The majority of these windows North East and North West facing and consequently exposed to sun and weather. 
Within two years of being built, the builders original finishing on most of the exposed cedar windows was starting to flake away, especially on the sills.     The proud home-owner (Lets call him Muggins), declined to call on the builders warranty to make good the window frame finish, and instead, call it crazy braver or call it call it foolish pig-ignorance, embarked upon a quest to tame the ravages of sun and rain, and to restore the dignity of these beautiful windows by selecting the best possible finish for the windows and doing the job properly  himself.  *Act One: The Beginning of The Journey* 
An excursion to Bunnings to equip quipping himself with the tools for his quest, resulted in the procurement of a Delta Sander and some 100 grade sandpaper.  (By chance a good call, as cedar, as Muggins discovered, is a soft wood, and is too easily sanded away with coarser grade paper). 
Significantly Muggins also selected Intergrain Ultraclear for the coating, based on the confidence inspiring promise on the side of the can._Intergrain Ultraclear Exterior is a tough, clear water based timber finish for use on window frames, doors and trims. Incorporating UV absorbers, Ultraclear Exterior provides superior protection against the weather including the harmful effects of the suns UV radiation._Over a long weekend of dusty and sweaty sanding Muggins had prepared half a dozen north facing second story windows (the ones most in need of maintenance) and was happily slapping on the Ultraclear, when something began to play on his mind. 
"Was this the right stuff to be using?", he thought.    Ultraclear is in essence a plastic coating  It does not bring out the rich colour of the timber  it appears to make the timber a blonde colour  but that is of less importance than its protective qualities and its longevity. After so much effort preparing just these six windows, Muggins realised that this quest was far from a doddle, and that twenty eight more windows lay ahead, and making the right choice with the coating could mean the difference between sanding and preparing just twenty eight more windows or looking down the barrel of 68 windows over a couple of years if hes made the wrong choice with the Ultraclear, and Cedar being such a soft wood, would not tolerate endless re-sanding before it would be sanded completely away.  *Act Two: The Challenge in On* 
After an evenings consultation with a mate over a few bottles of Shiraz, Muggins decided to hedge his bets.    Six windows were already committed to the ultraclear experiment, but the next lot of windows would be done with something different.   This would become a contest between products, and a new quest.  To find the best product for the windows with the most optimum mix of protection, longevity, minimised preparation time, and ease of maintenance.  
The second contestant would be Organoil, a product originally recommended for these windows by Muggins Architect, but not in fact used by builder when the house was built. 
The first challenge was buying the stuff.  It was not stocked at Bunnings  nor at the local paint supplies, but after some serious Googling and some calls to defunct numbers in NSW, Muggins discovered that Organoil now went by the name of Ecowood Oil  Natural Decking Oil, and it was still available in a few selected retail outlets. 
So after numerous weekends, twenty-one ground floor windows were prepared and coated with EcowoodOil.   Colour wise Ecowood Oil is a winner.  It imparts a beautiful rich red to the timber, and when fresh it has a lovely low-sheen.  It is also incredibly easy to apply.  On the downside, it smells awful  and can give a headache if a vapour mask is not worn.  Plus it requires turps to wash up the brushes. 
So the stage was set for an experiment. A challenge between a plastic membrane protection verses an penetrative oil based protection.  Ultraclear Verses Ecowood oil  *Two Years On - 2010/11* 
Today, some two years after the commencement of the quest  Muggins is now twenty-eight windows in (the remainder being less exposed, and Muggins a little wiser, fatter and lazier) and some important things have been learned. 
Firstly, Intergrain Ultraclear is not up to the job.  Despite regular  six monthly  recoats on the six original windows, the plastic coating has begun to lift off the surface in spots, and small perforations in the membrane has allowed water to penetrate, and create black stain marks under the membrane.  It is worse on horizontal surfaces (e.g. sills or corners) where water can pool, but the lifting has occurred on vertical surfaces also.     The membrane peels off in long strips where it has weakened  but in more protected areas it remains fast to the wood.  This means that the whole window needs to be sanded back for an alternative coating to be applied - Muggins is glad he stopped at six windows with the Intergrain Ultraclear.       
Ecowood Oil  Natural Decking Oil- The downside with this solution is that regular re-application is required.   For the windows as a whole re-application every six months when they begin to look dry is necessary, but for the highly exposed horizontal sills, re-application every three to four months is probably warranted.    Although this sounds like a lot of maintenance, all twenty-two of the oiled windows can be completed on a single warm day.  A wash down with sugar soap in the morning is all the preparation that is needed  let it dry, and then two coats in the afternoon, and the jobs done.      *Round One Summary*   Intergrain Ultraclear
Pros:  Washes out in Water; Probably OK for protected timber
Cons: Didn't work well for Muggins on exposed timber; *(IMHO)* and gives Cedar a blonde appearance.  Ecowoodoil  Natural Decking Oil
Pros: Look Great; Almost no preparation necessary, easy to apply with a brush or an old rag
Cons: Regular re-application needed on highly exposed timber; Stinks (mask recommended); Not water based. 
Round One goes to  Ecowood Oil.  The territory previously held by Ultraclear will be offered to another combatant    *What Now?* 
The UltraClear has got to go, in fact its already being replaced.    Muggins has selected Feast Watson Decking oil for the next contest.    Initial impressions are good.  It behaves like an oil, in that it soaks into the wood,  but it does not stink like Ecowood oil, and it can be washed out in water. 
Muggins has also read with interest other threads on this topic, and noted that Intergrain DWD and Sikkens receive high recommendations.   Sikkens may make its way into the contest eventually depending on how Feast Watson performs,  but Intergrain DWD is too closely related to its sibling UltraClear to get a shot at this title. *
EDITED POST*

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## bcp

Interesting. I'm just building a western red cedar studio/shed at the moment. I spoke to an intergrain tech specialist who at first recommended DWD, but later changed her recommendation to ultradeck... because i didn't want a coating that could peel, i wanted something that left the timber more ...bare.  DWD will peel.   
Here is one user whose experience turned sour... 'DWD is a lemon' Intergrain DWD Is a Lemon 
Ultradeck is slightly darker and more orange than the natural timber, but for my studio looks fantastic.  Too early to know how it ages, but i don't mind the natural aging of western red cedar for my weatherboards anyway.  Window frames are a completely different proposition.  Interested to hear what you learn.

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## watson

He hee....Not even gunna edit that one.  :Shrug:

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## BrettS

I tried inserting some images of the the windows in my post above.  Didn't work for though.  For those interested, a pic of one of my Intergrain coated windows is here  
and an image of the Ecowoodoil here
IMG]http://www.renovateforum.com/members/bretts/albums/cedar-windows-coatings/352-cedar-window-ecowoodoil.jpg[/IMG]

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## Master Splinter

You'll note from that pic that the membrane breach starts at the joins - this is where the endgrain is, and it gets a a quadruple whammy - endgrain is hidden, so it's completely uncoated *and* endgrain is the most porous part of the timber* and* it's got a nice capillary join that will wick water into itself _and_ it's a cross-grain join which puts relative wood movement at a maximum. 
Pinching techniques from boatbuilders (who manage to keep wooden boats looking good for 30 plus years in salt water), I would: 
Take back to bare timber; extract the nails (which will only keep rusting and discolouring the timber) and replace with a stainless steel nail or even a wooden dowel (or fill with thickened epoxy); coat the timber with 3-4-5 coats of West Epoxy or Bote Cote to seal out water and then a coat or two of two-part marine (sold in boat shops, not hardware stores) polyurethane to protect the epoxy against UV. 
Ideally, I'd disassemble the window so that all end grain could be coated, but as this might not be practical, I'd have a go using a syringe with a needle to inject epoxy into the joins to seal the end grain...but this is very much a poor cousin to properly coating all faces to encapsulate the timber (there would still be that cross grain movement to worry about, which would tend to weaken the protection at the joins). 
I'd scuff sand and re-poly them at 3-5 yearly intervals. 
My other, less maintennance solution would involve popping the sills off, cutting the nails holding the windows in the frames, dropping the windows out and putting windows with aluminium frames in.  Job done for 30+ years.

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## jago

Great advice from MS. 
I would also suggest that from the picture it looks if the construction has some part to play apart from DWD being a Lemon (thanks for the link). 
The cill looks square cut, which will allow water to puddle and the glazing bars look like they have a shadow line or is that putty ? Again that shadow line on the bars is allowing water to puddle on the horiziontal and channels it straight into the week point on the verticals. 
The bottom rail and sash stile (thats why they should have a mortise and tenon join) are commonly the weakest parts because of weather on  southern windows because bad manufacturing (not sealing edges).

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## chalkyt

For what it is worth, I had a similar problem when I lived in Sydney many moons ago. On recommendation of all of the experts I used Sikkens... bad move. A bit like your stuff, most of the creamy top coat (which does go clear) peeled off after a year or so, and what was left was a bugger to get off completely. 
I ended up using a common garden variety pigmented oil stain (after laboriously scraping and sanding off the residual Sikkens), probably Estapol or Cabots. 
This required little preparation (just a light sand or wire brush) and went on very easily... it just soaked in, and cleaning up if the cutting-in got onto the glass just involved a wipe with a turpsy rag. Although I had to redo the windows every couple of years, it only took a day to do so wasn't a big deal. Therefore the windows looked pretty good most of the time. 
The smell, cleaning up, etc wasn't any worse than using any other oil based product.

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## ringtail

Bottom line is - no clear or semi transperant finish will last longer than 1.5 years in that application and oils will go mouldy.  
secondly, no good calling on the builders warranty as there is no such thing for painting. 3 months for cosmetic defects 6 months at best.

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## BrettS

Many thanks for the useful feedback. Much to chew on here, and what could be a scary amount of work in the pipeline.

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## Andy T

Mmm - now I am worried after spending many hours on my WRC weatherboards and window frames a couple of years ago using the Intergrain Dimension 4 / DWD treatment. So far no problems but I will keep an eye on it. I also applied the same treatment on an old tree stump just to see how it goes in adverse conditions. Apart from some blistering from some sap in the half green stump, holding up reasonably well after 2 years. The secret from what I can gather is to ensure any residue finish is removed and plenty of elbow grease with timber cleaner and sanding. The Dimension 4 needs to be heavily applied to provide a foundation for the DWD else it will lift off. I was hoping for 5 years before recoating but if it starts to blister and peel I too will be very Pi$$ed off

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## brissyboy

HI All
I have used many coatings over the years.  Floods, spas and decks is all I use these days.  Last well, doesnt flake and easy recoat.

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## chalkyt

Yep, Ringtail's post reminded me that the cedar did go mouldy after a while, but this sanded off OK when preparing to recoat. It depended on exposure to weather and sun. On the south side, not much sun so the oil stain finish lasted longer but got more mouldy, on the east and north sides not so mouldy but the finish didn't last as long.... you can't win! The short answer was to re-do all the windows once it started looking a bit untidy.

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## Bloss

> Bottom line is - no clear or semi transperant finish will last longer than 1.5 years in that application and oils will go mouldy. .

  Can't agree - although oils and other finishes like polyurethanes externally are problematic I have used the Sikkens system Sikkens Woodcare Products by Tenaru, Australia - Woodstains staining Timber Coatings Paint Painting Coatings Stains Wood Fillers Water Based Oil Based Putty for more than 35 years now as it seems to be the only one that will give me 3-5 years on north and west facing exposed WR cedar windows, doors and panelling (they claim 2-5 years for re-coat and that's been my experience). 
Key is to follow the instructions to the letter (look at detailed instructions form the list at the left of teh home page) - and start with bare wood again. Then use the Cetol HLS (I have always used 2 coats although they say 1 or 2 - but recommend 2) then top with 2 coats of Supernatural (water based which I prefer and works well) or the oil based top coat. 
Really critical factor is to start checking at around the 2 year mark - especially on those extreme surface exposures for any sign of wear/ breakdown - water not beading or significant loss of sheen - or any physical cracking etc. Re-coating works really well after just a wash (NOT with a pressure cleaning unit like Karcher) and a light fine sand. I have houses where there has been nothing but a regular single re-coat each 3-5 years for more than 35 years! 
There are various colours - I have tried a few and the one I like is Cetol HLS 077 (Pine Natural) and for the top coat Supernatural in the same colour. This gives a honey brown colour with a low sheen finish that allows the timber to show through beautifully. As I said - must be done before any failure of the original coats or it will not last, but if you do it will be fine - and take it form me I have tried nearly every alternative there is at one time or another.

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## president_ltd

> Can't agree - although oils and other finishes like polyurethanes externally are problematic I have used the Sikkens system Sikkens Woodcare Products by Tenaru, Australia - Woodstains staining Timber Coatings Paint Painting Coatings Stains Wood Fillers Water Based Oil Based Putty for more than 35 years now as it seems to be the only one that will give me 3-5 years on north and west facing exposed WR cedar windows, doors and panelling (they claim 2-5 years for re-coat and that's been my experience). 
> Key is to follow the instructions to the letter (look at detailed instructions form the list at the left of teh home page) - and start with bare wood again. Then use the Cetol HLS (I have always used 2 coats although they say 1 or 2 - but recommend 2) then top with 2 coats of Supernatural (water based which I prefer and works well) or the oil based top coat.

  i agree with the above.  this follows my experiences with Sikkens Cetol HLS. 
it doesn't last forever - but its doing exactly what it says and i haven't had any issues.

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