# Forum Home Renovation The Cubby House  Treated Pine in Cubby House

## boo

Hi All, 
Can some one confirm whether treated pine is actually enforcably banned from use in kids play equipment? 
I have some old 90mm CCA posts I'd like to use for a new cubby but AFAIK painting it is still not ok.  
It appears only usable as subfloor, but not for extending above the floor to support handrails/roof etc. 
TIA  :Smilie:

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## phild01

> Hi All, 
> Can some one confirm whether treated pine is actually enforcably banned from use in kids play equipment? 
> I have some old 90mm CCA posts I'd like to use for a new cubby but AFAIK painting it is still not ok.  
> It appears only usable as subfloor, but not for extending above the floor to support handrails/roof etc. 
> TIA

  Sorry, I can't answer this but would be interested to know why it is considered a problem generally.  To my knowledge the CCA pine is not a danger to anyone as it doesn't leach out.  I wondered about the use of CCA on Fraser Island long ago and was informed it is totally safe to use in sensitive environments.  It is common knowledge that the only danger is if it burns.  Would really like to know of an independent and 'government hands off study' to this question!

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## davegol

http://www.chhwoodproducts.com.au/us...mber%20FAQ.pdf
but then again - they do make the stuff.. 
IMHO, it's ok for your own playground, but if you're building it for a school/public area, you might not get away with it.

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## boo

> ... it doesn't leach out.

  Actually, it does a little. There are quite a few studies, like this one: http://www.ccaresearch.org/Pre-Confe...f/stilwell.pdf   

> Would really like to know of an independent and 'government hands off study' to this question!

  Depends whether you treat this as government or not, but it seems a good resource in general: The facts about CCA-treated timber | CSIRO

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## boo

> but then again - they do make the stuff..

  Yep, that is a problem. I note the selective wording and inclusions make it sound like you could eat it for breakfast. It's what's not said that is probably an issue, but what's left out. E.g. Quoting the Kwon study without identifying APVMA's restricted use policy _within this FAQ sheet_ is a bit of an omission.

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## boo

So, an update. I did find a hint of an answer in this:  Media Release: Annual report shows a responsive regulator in changing times 
"The APVMA does not have regulatory powers to control the use of CCA-treated end-productsour powers extend only to the point of sale of the chemical itselfand this step tightens up the requirements for industry and retailers to ensure users of such products are well-informed of the risks and permitted uses." 
So if APVMA doesn't have "regulatory power", then who enforces "permitted uses".  
BTW, sorry for the semantics. To help understand my dilemma: these TP posts are an existing pergola already in position and encased in concrete, but now I'm raising the floor and enclosing it it's called a "cubbyhouse" and it's children's play equipment. All of a sudden it appears I can't reuse them :Doh:

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## davegol

just tell the kids not to burn down the cubby .. then they'll be fine!  :Biggrin:

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## r3nov8or

CCA is no longer legal in VIC for new structures in schools and public areas. Either ACQ or Cypress is used now

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## Random Username

I'd like to see proof that ACQ treatment (and whatever the long-chain molecules that provide termite resistance are in Cypress are) are safe  for humans before using them. I know that Cypress Pine dust has been linked to cancer; if tested with the same amount of scrutiny as treated pine, would Cypress be regarded as safe?

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## boo

SO, I thought I'd update this for future readers... 
I honestly couldn't get a straight answer on this, so I chopped the posts off at floor level, built the rest of the subfloor with Hyne T3 built everything above it with Hyne T2. This puts the CCA part underneath in a non-accessible area.  
Not being able to use the posts as bracing all the way up to the roof meant adding diagonal gal steel angle and making the window/door openings smaller to allow more wall area for bracing. 
If I could start again I would've just bought hardwood posts...

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## Random Username

Ummmm... Tebuconazole is a possible carcinogen and has endocrine disrupting effects, while Propiconazole is also a possible carcinogen as well as being a developmental toxin at rates as low as 8mg/kg (those are the fungicides in Hyne T3) .

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## boo

> Ummmm... Tebuconazole is a possible carcinogen and has endocrine disrupting effects, while Propiconazole is also a possible carcinogen as well as being a developmental toxin at rates as low as 8mg/kg (those are the fungicides in Hyne T3) .

  Yep, no problem T3 is all subfloor and inaccessible. Notably the T2 frame is totally enclosed/lined too, because I wasn't going to be too happy about the kids munching away on those pesticides either. But there are many other materials that contain *possible* carcinogens, including various finishes, cleaners and even arts and craft supplies! The risk is surely in the way the are used and potentially misused inadvertantly. 
However, you raise an interesting point: How does the average punter know what are suitable uses and risks are associated with typical materials bought at your local hardware? Certainly you can still go and get H4 CCA sleepers, and there's no point of sale MSDS advice with that. Maybe it's time for something like that to be used in the timber / metal materials supply industry - or is there already something like that?

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## Random Username

I use this technique: 
Q1. Are there groups of soccer mums agitating for a product's removal because 'OMG think of the children'?
Q2. Would the product's removal have effectively no impact on a soccer mum's lifestyle?
Q3. Does the product contain simple to identify 'bad things' (such as arsenic)?
Q4. Does the product contain concepts that require more knowledge of science than 'sciency stuff is boring' to critically evaluate? 
If answer to 1 and 2 is 'yes', and either 3 or 4 is also 'yes' then the product they are condemning is more than likely going to be safer than any hastily rushed to market replacement for at least the next 30-50 years.

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## John2b

> the product they are condemning is more than likely going to be safer than any hastily rushed to market replacement for at least the next 30-50 years.

  I have a personal experience of CCA poisoning from treated pine. Several years ago a family member (my first wife's aunty) was rushed to hospital with an unknown illness and spent two weeks in intensive care in a critical state. It turned out to be arsenic poisoning from a CCA treated handrail installed recently on timber decking. She used to hold on to the railing whilst she smoked and was transferring the arsenic to her mouth on the cigarettes. Children also have a tendency to put things in their mouths. I would not use CCA treated pine anywhere.

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## Random Username

Did she stop smoking after that?

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## John2b

> Did she stop smoking after that?

  I honestly don't know. I separated from my wife and lost touch with her extended family. One would hope she realised that smoking is dangerous to your health LOL :Rolleyes:

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