# Forum Home Renovation Electrical  Electrical Work what can  Can I Do unlicensed

## nev25

I went though and interesting scenario a few weeks ago I thought I would post my findings on the forum for all to see. 
I recently did a job for a lady who was getting a new kitchen installed that was an insurance claim.
At the completion of the job no one put the hand up to pay me
The home owner claimed the insurance company agreed to pay, the insurance company said the cabinet maker has been paid for the whole job (Electrical and plumbing included)
The cabinet makers reply was simply why would he pay someone for work that he could do himself (meaning Electrical work which he claims he has been doing for years).
So I got my back up and went on a mission to find out once and for all what an unlicensed person can or cannot do 
Here in Victoria the electrical regulator (more commonly known as the office of the chief electrical inspector) recently combined office with the gas and fuel regulator and operate under the umbrella of ENERGY SAFE VICTORIA  http://www.esv.vic.gov.au 
Recently ESV set up regional offices in County Vic to house a representative whose job is to Audit Electrical work and to fine and possible prosecute for illegal and non compliant work.
Part of his responsibility's is also as a mentor and to clarify rules to electricians as the need arises. 
So I rang the local office and told the Representative the story and asked what electrical work can an unlicensed person do
He replied with a stern NONE AT ALL 
The next question I asked was can an unlicensed person loosen screws on a PowerPoint or remove a PowerPoint without touching wires 
He replied no because it exposes live (or potentially live) terminals but lets look at what the ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT tells us 
Now the ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT is an act of parliament and is LAW 
From this legal document derives all the standards and wiring rules.
If you where prosecuted and brought before a Magistrate this would be the first document he would refer too.
The ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT can be downloaded here http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/Portals/0/...tyAct98v42.pdf
So you can follow my lead. 
Shall we dance? 
BTW (I know there is an ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT 2004 but I believe it just a reprint of 1998 either way it would say the same thing in regards to this matter.)  _Division 2Licensing of electrical workers_  _38. Electrical workers_  _A person must not carry out or offer to carry out or hold out that the person carries out or is willing_  _to carry out any class of electrical work that, under the regulations, is a prescribed class of electrical work for the purposes of this Division unless the person is_ 
And it goes on to describe different classes of Licensing 
Then he referred me to the definition section of the document to classify what is deemed as Electrical work  _"electrical work" means electrical connection work, electrical equipment work, electrical inspection work or electrical installation work;_ 
Then we looked up the definition of Electrical Equipment work  _"electrical equipment work" means repair, alteration or maintenance of electrical equipment;_ 
Then electrical equipment  _"electrical equipment" means any appliance, wire, fitting, cable, conduit or apparatus that_  _generates, uses, conveys or controls (or that is intended to generate, use, convey or control) electricity;_ 
(You can read the other definitions for yourself if you so desire) 
He then said as far as he is concerned removing (unscrewing) a screw from a fitting (in this case a power point) is classified as an alteration so it is illegal. 
Around 20 minutes after the phone conversation he rang me back to tell me he has spoken to his piers (namely the head honchos at the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector)and wanted to confirm he was correct that under the ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT it is illegal to remove a screw from a PowerPoint unless you are licensed. 
The conversation went on to explain that it was about time he visited the cabinet maker in question that claims he had been doing minor electrical work for many years. 
So there you have it Straight from the people that do the prosecuting  
Now other regulators in other state of Australia may view this differently but I doubt it. 
Now I know this will open up another can of worms with a lot of what ifs and whys and smart A**E comments but please hold off on the death threats Im just posting what was conveyed to me 
ESV contact details for verification _Telephone: (03) 9203 9700_ _Facsimile: (03) 9686 2197_ _Email:_ _info@esv.vic.gov.au_

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## Honorary Bloke

Wouldn't go so far as death threats.  :Rolleyes:   
[There, the first smart a**e comment. Aren't you glad that's over with?  :Biggrin:  ] 
Our rules over here are so different that I simply like to sit back and watch these threads develop.  :Wink:

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## chrisp

Nev, 
Your post on the regulations is quite correct (and is limited to "fixed" wiring and doesn't apply to "plug in" wiring). 
The big question is *WHY*?  Why do we have some of the most restrictive regulations?   
Maybe it is something to do industry protection rather than protecting the consumer  :Rolleyes:

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## Vernonv

Nev,
I think most people would agree with your summation that touching any fixed electrical wiring/fittings is illegal (unless you have done a 4 year apprenticeship and are licensed, etc, etc) ... but as Chrisp pointed out ... Why? 
More importantly, did you get paid? and if so who paid you?

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## Ronaldo451

_At the completion of the job no one put the hand up to pay me...._ 
I would have thought you would be chasing whoever engaged you - ie, the party that contacted you and gave you the go ahead.  
(I don't have the stamina to follow the comments on 'the other matter' that I know are coming)

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## GraemeCook

> He replied with a stern “NONE AT ALL”  
> Then he referred me to the definition section of the document to classify what is deemed as Electrical work  _"electrical work" means electrical connection work, electrical equipment work, electrical inspection work or electrical installation work;_ 
> Then we looked up the definition of Electrical Equipment work  _"electrical equipment work" means repair, alteration or maintenance of electrical equipment;_ 
> Then electrical equipment  _"electrical equipment" means any appliance, wire, fitting, cable, conduit or apparatus that_  _generates, uses, conveys or controls (or that is intended to generate, use, convey or control) electricity;_

  
Hope you have been paid by now, Nev.   The commercial law issues are very strait forward;  whoever asked you to do the job is responsible for paying you.   If they have issues with an insurer then that is between them and the insurer, its none of your business.   You just politely ask for your payment, and then go through the standard commercial debt collection process if they default. 
Verbal contracts are legally enforcable, although it can be messy to prove the precise terms.  Hence its always better to have a written contract, often called a letter of engagement.  These can be on standard forms. 
I don't want to execute you, Nev, but it might be a good idea to start with the politicians who wrote the legislation that you quoted.   A strict reading of it suggests that I am not allowed to change a light globe, replace a blown fuse or to fix a frayed toaster cord.   That's dumb.  (the pollies, not you!) 
Cheers 
Graeme

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## chrisp

The applicability of the legislation quoted by Nev was covered sometime ago on the WWF.  Sturdee posted a very similar post to Nev quoting the same legislation.  Strict reading of the legislation seemed to imply that even changing a battery requires an electrician.    A poster bpj1968 posted a good response explaining how to read the legislation.  You can read the original response at http://www.woodworkforums.com.au/sho...0&postcount=48 but for completeness, here it is (with typos corrected): "Unfortunately legislation is not the easiest thing to interpret. Legislation usually has an ACT, which sets out the broad requirements. ACTS have subordinate legislation called, REGULATIONS, which spell out the various components. Some ACTS can have several REGULATIONS, as is the case with electricity. To compound it even more some REGULATIONS are introduced only to amend existing ACTS and/or REGULATIONS. 
These are then broken into DIVISIONS and PARTS , like chapters in books. Some sections/regulations only relate to certain DIVISIONS/PARTS and have no effect on other PARTS. 
When reading regulations you need to read the entire section as a part of the PART. 
Depending on when it was written some legislation is even harder. There was a major re-write around 1958 when they didn't use punctuation and flowery legal words no one understands, "to wit" as an example (means namely) Although now written in a more simple English, it is by no means easy for the uneducated in legal writing. 
  Unfortunately Sturdee has misinterpreted some of this in the first post 
     Quote:
                         <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;">                                                   Originally Posted by *Sturdee*   _ 
In Victoria the ELECTRICITY SAFETY ACT 1998 - SECT 38 provides that a person must not carry out or offer to carry out or hold out that the person carries out or is willing to carry out any class of electrical work that, under the regulations, is a prescribed class of electrical work for the purposes of this Division unless the person is- (d) licensed ......._
                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
Prescribed class of elecrical work is in the _Electricity Safety (Installations) Regulations 1999_ 
regulation 301 in particular.
This relates to  *"electrical installation"* means electrical equipment that is fixed or to be fixed in, on, under or over any land; *"electrical installation work"* means installation, alteration, repair or maintenance of an electrical installation; 
In other words Fixed
     Quote:
                         <table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;">                                                   Originally Posted by *Sturdee*   _ 
"electrical equipment" means any appliance, wire, fitting, cable, conduit or apparatus that generates, uses, conveys or controls (or that is intended to generate, use, convey or control) electricity; 
Further Section 57 of the Act states: 
Prescribed electrical equipment 
(1) Energy Safe Victoria, by notice published in the Government Gazette, may declare that any class, description or type of electrical equipment is, from a date specified in the notice, prescribed electrical equipment for the purposes of this Act. 
(2) A person must not supply or offer to supply electrical equipment prescribed under sub-section (1) unless the equipment- 
(a) is approved by Energy Safe Victoria and is marked as prescribed .... (etc) 
Regulations under this provision made By Energy Safe Victoria are detailed here ........ 
Peter._
                      </td> </tr> </tbody></table> 
Regulation 57 only applies to products offered for sale, i.e. new. 
Every electrical appliance offered for sale has to meet certain safety standards, eg insulation overheating etc. Much the same way as the ADR's dictate requirements for new cars."

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## Ashore

Awah chrisp and he went to so much trouble to justify his opinions and try to make everyone believe that you gotta call a leco to change a fuse , and you just shot him down if flames again , no christmas card for you this year  :Biggrin:

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## autogenous

> The big question is *WHY*?  Why do we have some of the most restrictive regulations?

  AU 240 volts 
US 120? volts?

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## nev25

> *"electrical installation"* means electrical equipment that is fixed or to be fixed in, on, under or over any land; *"electrical installation work"* means installation, alteration, repair or maintenance of an electrical installation;  In other words Fixed

   
Yes I agree  But  _A person must not carry out or offer to carry out or hold out that the person carries out or is willing 
to carry out any class of electrical work that, under the regulations, is a prescribed class of electrical work for the purposes of this Division unless the person is_   _"electrical work" means electrical connection 
work, electrical equipment work, electrical 
inspection work or electrical installation 
work; _   _"electrical equipment" means any appliance, 
wire, fitting, cable, conduit or apparatus that 
generates, uses, conveys or controls (or that 
is intended to generate, use, convey or 
control) electricity;_  
Also  _"connect", in relation to an electrical installation 
or electrical equipment, includes make 
capable of receiving an electric current;_

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## nev25

> Awah chrisp and he went to so much trouble to justify his opinions and try to make everyone believe that you gotta call a leco to change a fuse , and you just shot him down if flames again , no christmas card for you this year

  If you read the post properly Its not my opinion its the enforcement of ESV
I don't give a sh*t what you do 
I was just merely pointing out my finding 
Am I correct in saying that posting replies in helping others doing illegal electrical work is called AIDING and ABETTING in a Court of law????

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## elkangorito

> AU 240 volts 
> US 120? volts?

  This is a common misunderstanding. The only real difference between the two voltages relates to arcing potential. 
AS/NZS 3000:2007 indicates: 
B4.3 Disconnection times.
See Figure B4 Maximum Duration of Prospective 50 Hz Touch Voltage (Reproduced from IEC 61200-413 Figure C2).
This part also mentions that a touch voltage of 50 V may be sustained by a person indefinitely, and that a touch voltage of 100 V may not be sustained and must be disconnected.

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## Master Splinter

> Quote:
>  	 	 		 			 				 The big question is *WHY*?  Why do we have some of the most restrictive regulations? 			 		 
> AU 240 volts 
> US 120? volts?

  
Well, the answer is certainly not safety; New Zealand (with the same 230 volts, and sharing the same set of standards - AS/NZS3000) allows DIY electrical work and it has a lower electrical fatality rate than Australia. 
Read the Parliamentary debate in NZ on the topic. Until 1992, both Australia and New Zealand had the same restrictive rules; then NZ relaxed theirs to allow DIY work.   http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate...5-03-16a.243.6 
Quoting from that page :
"The 7 year average accident rate is now in the ratio of roughly 2:3 in favour of New Zealand being the safer place." 
So Australia's unique stand on electrical licensing is causing around 7 deaths a year (Based on 21 deaths for 2006, according to the ABS).  So that's the human toll of keeping it a restricted occupation.  I wonder if the industry protectionists sleep well at night.

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## nev25

> Well, the answer is certainly not safety; New Zealand (with the same 230 volts, and sharing the same set of standards - AS/NZS3000) allows DIY electrical work and it has a lower electrical fatality rate than Australia. 
> Read the Parliamentary debate in NZ on the topic. Until 1992, both Australia and New Zealand had the same restrictive rules; then NZ relaxed theirs to allow DIY work.   http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate...5-03-16a.243.6 
> Quoting from that page :
> "The 7 year average accident rate is now in the ratio of roughly 2:3 in favour of New Zealand being the safer place." 
> So Australia's unique stand on electrical licensing is causing around 7 deaths a year (Based on 21 deaths for 2006, according to the ABS). So that's the human toll of keeping it a restricted occupation. I wonder if the industry protectionists sleep well at night.

  Revenue raising maybe????? 
But what you are more or less saying is like if we do away with speed limits it will reduce the road toll 
I don't think so

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## Ashore

> I was just merely pointing out my finding In a nut shell YOUR FINDING not necessarly the correct one just your interpertation 
> Am I correct in saying that posting replies in helping others doing illegal electrical work is called AIDING and ABETTING in a Court of law????

  The way you always come across is that if anything even slightly related to electrical work is advised on or carried by a non quallified leco, then the leco gestapo will have you in front of the high court , you seem to thing that because you are a trained leco , or at least you say you are, then only leco's are smart enough to do electrical work , mate its a trade nothing more nothing less, and though speaking from your own abilities you seam to think that you need 4 years training to be able to handle the work of a leco you are dead wrong, the training needed isn't 4 years for the average person as realized by our own government when they gave marine engineers a 6 week course to replace electricians on ships , handleing far more sophicasted electrical work than domestic wiring , 
As for AIDING and ABETTING in a Court of law, stick to what you are presentlly doing because you understand nothing of the Australian legal system as far as courts of law go, try reading up on the laws of natural justice regarding offering opinions and or advice , just because some sector passes an act or bill it does not over rule fedral law , but with your tunnel vision you proberly won't see that  :Mad:

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## nev25

> So Australia's unique stand on electrical licensing is causing around 7 deaths a year .

  You don't know that
Thats a broad statement
IMO allowing unlicensed electrical work would cause more deaths in Australia 
Statistics mean Jack in the real work

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## nev25

> As for AIDING and ABETTING in a Court of law, stick to what you are presentlly doing because you understand nothing of the Australian legal system as far as courts of law go,

  Once again read my post 
I was asking a question 
NOT Making a statement

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## elkangorito

I believe that Nev is right. 
The current legislation doesn't let anybody look at an electrical wire unless they are "qualified", which I think is silly. 
On the other hand, if one wishes to change the situation, start protesting formally but do expect that insurance companies may increase their premiums respectively &/or training (not free of charge) may become a requirement to "DIY" legally if DIYing should become "legal". 
As I've mentioned before, many (but not all) parts of the U.S.A. allow individuals to carry out electrical DIY but only if they pay for the appropriate license to do so. Of course, such work is inspected before energisation (almost the same as N.Z.). 
Education & Inspection is the only way to satify all parties concerned since many people are happy to do their own electrical work to save money. The current situation promotes or tempts people into taking unnecessary risks.  
EDIT:
There is no preventative measure for fools who carry out dangerous work...until it's too late.

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## chrisp

> You don't know that
> Thats a broad statement
> IMO allowing unlicensed electrical work would cause more deaths in Australia 
> Statistics mean Jack in the real work

  Nev, 
Don't you get it?  Australia and NZ use essentially the same electrical standards.  NZ allows owners to do some of their own electrical work, Australia doesn't.  NZ has a LOWER death rate (i.e. electrical deaths per million population) than Australia. 
Your "IMO" doesn't hold up.

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## nev25

So???????
As I said   

> But what you are more or less saying is like if we do away with speed limits it will reduce the road toll

  Imagine how many more deaths there would be if they allowed unlicensed work

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## Master Splinter

> Revenue raising maybe????? 
> But what you are more or less saying is like if we do away with speed limits it will reduce the road toll 
> I don't think so

  
No, I'm not "more or less saying is like if we do away with speed limits" - I'm saying that since the early 90's, when NZ deregulated DIY electrical installation, there has been a decrease in NZ's electrical related fatalities.  This is a demonstrated fact.   
 To put it in your terms, it's like looking at another country's actual experience in successfully reducing the road toll by setting new speed limits, rather than relying soley on the special interest "120kph in suburbs is too slow" lobby group that has been advising you in the past.

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## Master Splinter

> So???????
> As I said   
> Imagine how many more deaths there would be if they allowed unlicensed work

  You don't need to imagine; you have the actual numbers.   
Based on the New Zealand experience, in 2006 Australia would have had seven less deaths from electrical causes.  We had 21 electrical fatalities; if we had New Zealand's electrical death rate, this would have been 14.  There you go - there's the number you don't need to imagine. Seven fewer deaths.

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## chrisp

> Am I correct in saying that posting replies in helping others doing illegal electrical work is called AIDING and ABETTING in a Court of law????

  I suppose you could ring Standards Australia and ask if they are "AIDING and ABETTING" when they publish the AS/NZS3000 series of standards.   :Rolleyes:

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## kombiman

> Nev, 
> Don't you get it? Australia and NZ use essentially the same electrical standards. NZ allows owners to do some of their own electrical work, Australia doesn't. NZ has a LOWER death rate (i.e. electrical deaths per million population) than Australia. 
> Your "IMO" doesn't hold up.

   
Education wins over regulation every time.

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## anawanahuanana

> I suppose you could ring Standards Australia and ask if they are "AIDING and ABETTING" when they publish the AS/NZS3000 series of standards.

  Frankly I'm surprised that they don't make you produce and electrical licence before they will sell you a copy of the standards! 
But please everybody. Don't report me to the Feds. I changes a light globe yesterday, and in doing so exposed live, or potentially live, electrical contacts. Should have got the yellow pages out and waited 3 weeks for a sparky to turn up. Still ,at least next time I'll know what to do..... :Rolleyes:

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## AIRMAN

For those statistics to be accurate for this discussion they really need to be split into the cause of death, I believe most deaths aren't related to residential work, if this is true and most of the deaths in both country's come from high voltage/commercial/industrial work then you would expect Australia to have more deaths per million as we have allot more heavy industry than New Zealand. 
The speeding analogy is stupid the motives behind the two activities are completely different. Most people speed for the thrill of speeding or because they are plain reckless, I don't see anyone doing there own electrical work for the thrill of it,  (people who are plain reckless are going to do their own electrical regardless), the reasons are mainly to save money and the satisfaction of doing the job yourself. I am from NZ originally and worked in the building industry there. In most part I found the people doing their own electrical work took the time to properly research and carry out the work to standard as they were very conscious of getting it right as it was their own home. I have seen electrical work done be DIY's that was meticulous, I can't say the same for electrical work carried out by so called professionals in Australia. I know every industry has it's share of bad apples, mine certainly does but I think you are underestimating the people desire to do the work correctly. 
I pay for an electrician on most jobs as to me it's a false economy doing the work yourself, he gets in done in half the time and buys the materials at half the cost, I am lucky that I know a sparky that works for $45 an hour if I give him a whole days work, I can then go to work and make that same amount and not have to be crawling around in a roof. But I refuse to pay for a sparky to come and pull out a power point or light switch so I can paint around it, that is just bureaucracy gone mad.

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## Ferdelberger

Regulations are necessary I guess but rules are made to be broken.
Most of us exceed the speed limit by 10% and are not feeling too guilty about it. I do most of my own electrical and plumbing and never had a problem.  Would not try to change a switchboard but anything else I give it a go.  The help that people like Nev and co provide on this forum is a great help to us DIY electricians.  Like twisting the wires - never bothered until now but will definately do it in future. And the number of power points on a circuit - used to just keep chicking on another one but now will take more care.
Keep up the good discussions as it is invaluable to us DIY sparkies and plumbers.

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## jatt

It appears many rule changes/more stringent ones come from the idiot factor ie.  those of us that do a bodgy job of things.  Spoils it fot the rest of us who go to the trouble of learning to do it properly and to the AS standard of the day.  Do your homework.  Amazing what u can learn when u can "talk the talk" with tradies. 
Same goes for plumbing. 
Research the job before a tradie rocks up. 
Its a great help when u enlist the services of a tradie and he doesnt appear to be doing it correctly/doing a bodgy job of it.  On that I have generally found the peole I have enlisted to do a job so far to be doing it right.  Lots of little changes to the rules and their interpretation can catch the best of us out at times, so I try & ask lots of relevant questions.  I had one making calls to the inspector because I believed something could be done when he didnt.  I won, saved hundreds of $, and didnt have to put the neighbor offside because of it.  He didnt appear too upset because he too learnt something from it. 
Once they work out I do know what I'm on about then they are a good souce of info and can save some cash in the long run, ie plug in overhead fluoro lites in the shed.     Usually I only hire tradies based on a few good referrals.  The good ones appear to be flat out and dont appear threatened by me possibly knowing more than I should.    
Somehow I dont think I little DIY every so often will put these guys out of job.  Just do it right.  Nobody wants to see things get to the point where we cant legally change a light bulb. 
My two bobs worth.

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## Smurf

I seriously doub't there's _any_ job that actually requires 4+ years of training. 
Lawyers - it's all in the books.
Doctors - much the same.
Electricians - again, it's in the book.
Gas fitting? You guessed it, there's a book. 
But you can't learn everything by reading a book. Give a 10 year old a book on how to drive. Then put them behind the wheel in the middle of peak hour city traffic and see what happens.  
And would you want to be operated on by a DIY surgeon with no experience but who had read all the books? Didn't think so. 
The point of vocational training is 90% about experience and teaching people to think a certain way. That's why it takes so long. The other few % that is actual knowledge thus seems relatively easy - and it is as long as you don't see the value in experience. 
As a licensed electrician, I'd guess that 50% of homes have crook wiring and that 25% are actually dangerous. That said, few people get electrocuted or have their homes actually burn down. Just like very few accidents are actually caused by defective vehicles and few people get murdered. But we take steps to prevent these things so there's some logic in doing the same with electricity.

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## Ashore

> I seriously doub't there's _any_ job that actually requires 4+ years of training.

   How right you are , though you never stop learning , unless your tunnel vision or head up your ...nether regions.. stop you.
 I was at sea as an engineer for over 25 years and after all that time I was still learning , new technology or just the simple things like someone taking a diffrent approach to what is taught and looking from outside the box to see a better / easier way of doing something .  Other wise it's just learning by the book , which is proberly why quallified Australian tradesman are well respected around the world , where those with qualifications taught only from the book and if you can quote the regs you get a ticket are not as well accepted :Rolleyes:

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## elkangorito

My comments in blue.   

> The point of vocational training is 90% about experience and teaching people to think a certain way. That's why it takes so long. The other few % that is actual knowledge thus seems relatively easy - and it is as long as you don't see the value in experience.  Here in "amazing" Thailand, the theory of electrical vocational training is extensive. Unfortunately, there is little "real" practice that occurs within the training period. The problems associated with this concept are frequent, numerous & dangerous. 
> How many times is it "safe" to have bad connections? How many times is it acceptable to have your house burn down? Once? Twice? Dare I say three times? I'm sure I could go on & on about the "how many times" thing. 
> It is near impossible to learn everything from a book without the practice. Not strangely, practice is the hardest & longest thing to learn. Also, it must be coupled to a theory otherwise "practice" is simply a process learnt "parrot fashion" with little meaning.

   

> How right you are , though you never stop learning , unless your tunnel vision or head up your ...nether regions.. stop you.
>  I was at sea as an engineer for over 25 years and after all that time I was still learning , new technology or just the simple things like someone taking a diffrent approach to what is taught and looking from outside the box to see a better / easier way of doing something .  Other wise it's just learning by the book , which is proberly why quallified Australian tradesman are well respected around the world , where those with qualifications taught only from the book and if you can quote the regs you get a ticket are not as well accepted

  I'm sure Ashore, your constant learning experience could not have successfully taken place if you didn't know the theory.
Thinking "outside the box" to me means that a thorough technical & theoretical knowledge of the subject (electrical) is not only understood but well practiced by the person who thinks outside the box.  
Whilst I disagree with the current "DIY not allowed in Australia" attitude, I do think that education & practice is the answer. I'm sure that nobody will dispute that "practice makes perfect" until:
a] electrical inspectors are allowed/required to inspect all DIY electrical work AND/OR
b] anybody who wishes to undertake electrical work must pass an appropriate course, which includes practical experience;
At this moment, I feel that DIY work should not be undertaken unless something like the above criteria is met. 
I wouldn't mind so much if houses could not be sold without a full electrical inspection having taken place.

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## Metal Head

Hi Nev25,  *I recently did a job for a lady who was getting a new kitchen installed that was an insurance claim. At the completion of the job no one put the hand up to pay me*  
I looked at further posts but I couldn't see a reply to the above part - in that if this bloke did all the electrical work then what was your contribution to the end product? or was you doing some other work for her - sorry but I'm just a bit confused :Redface:  
Cheers
MH

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## Vernonv

Hi MH,
I read it as - Nev did the electrical work for this kitchen insurance job and upon completion, neither the lady owner ,nor the cabinet maker doing the kitchen install, nor the insurance company paid him. 
The cabinet maker reckons he "could" have done the electrical work.

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## chrisp

I'm wondering if the payment issue is the same as the one in this thread  :Confused:  http://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...706#post719706

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## Vernonv

Could be? 
I would still like to hear if he resolved the situation (either of them).

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## benja

> Quoting from that page :
> "The 7 year average accident rate is now in the ratio of roughly 2:3 in favour of New Zealand being the safer place." 
> So Australia's unique stand on electrical licensing is causing around 7 deaths a year (Based on 21 deaths for 2006, according to the ABS).  So that's the human toll of keeping it a restricted occupation.  I wonder if the industry protectionists sleep well at night.

  
Could also be that there are a lot more people in Oz than Bro land, so statistically, we should have more people involved in anything that NZ also does. They have less than 4.3 million at the present time, whereas we have 20.4 million, so really, we should have a 4:1 ratio in favour of killing australians. Is the data population corrected?, As Homer Simpson says, " *Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.*  
The real issue is that ANYONE is being killed at work, be it electrician, chippy, plumber or whatever.  Noone deserves to go to work, and never come home. 
Be safe this Xmas, i know a lot of you will be renovating! 
Cheers
Benja

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## nev25

> Could be? 
> I would still like to hear if he resolved the situation (either of them).

  Thanks for the concern 
Yes I did eventually get paid but had to engage the services of a Debt collector (again) 
But of course it did cost me to do this but Its the principle of the matter that concerns me. 
I even got an abusive phone call from the client concerned and wanted me to reduce the bill  
As far as reporting the cabinet maker for doing illegal work I'm still thinking about what to do there
ESV was interested in taking it further with my complaint. 
Now it on the the next person that owes me 
Don't see why my kids have to miss out because people wont pay for what they asked me to do in the first place 
But thats the life of a contractor

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## Vernonv

> Don't see why my kids have to miss out because people wont pay for what they asked me to do in the first place

  Absolutely. If you do right by your customers, then they should do right by you. I feel for people who wrongly don't get paid for the work they do.

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## pharmaboy2

> Could also be that there are a lot more people in Oz than Bro land, so statistically, we should have more people involved in anything that NZ also does. They have less than 4.3 million at the present time, whereas we have 20.4 million, so really, we should have a 4:1 ratio in favour of killing australians. Is the data population corrected?, As Homer Simpson says, " *Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.*  
> The real issue is that ANYONE is being killed at work, be it electrician, chippy, plumber or whatever.  Noone deserves to go to work, and never come home. 
> Be safe this Xmas, i know a lot of you will be renovating! 
> Cheers
> Benja

  Benja - the word "rate" means  per n, it is already corrected for population, usually expressed as deaths per million of population.  In all of these threads all statitistical comparisons of Australia versus an oecd nation have revealed a higher electrocution rate (population corrected) for Australia than any other comparitive country.  Co-incidentally Australia has the toughest restrictions on electrical work of the oecd nations.  Armed with that statitistical knowledge, most people come to the conclusion that the overly stringent regulations are likely contributing to Australias death rate from electrocution .   
(either that or Australians are inherently more stupid than our  peers)

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## Master Splinter

While "correlation does not imply causation", after reading some of the safety bulletins and accident investigations into Australian electrocutions, my (non-academically-rigorous) view is that yes, we are more stupid than our peers - the causes of death tend to cluster in groups such as "coming into contact with live overhead wires with ladder/crane", "drilling/sawing/nailing into structure and contacting live wire" for non-sparkies and "working on improperly isolated/live switchboards or other equipment" for sparkies. 
Sounds like a call for more education and less legislation!

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## Smurf

> Sounds like a call for more education and less legislation!

  My own observation is that Australians are generally pretty slack when it comes to safety. 
Just look at how many people complain about car design laws intended to make vehicles safer and spend huge amounts of time trying to find a way around them in order to make the vehicle _less_ safe. It's very common in practice.  
Or look at how many people are willing to risk their life messing about with asbestos rather than calling in a licensed removalist who (hopefully) knows what they're doing. 
And there's always the fool who somehow ends up running a garden hose from the gas cylinder or uses that product most loathed by electricians, speaker wire, to wire the house.  
Anyone with a bit of common sense ought to realise that if gas bottles were supposed to be connected with garden hose then that's what gas fitters and gas companies would use. Even a casual look at how it's done properly will find it's either copper pipe or a hose that's very different from one you'd use to water the garden. It ain't rocket science but still there are people who end up blowing themselves up this way. 
Same with the wiring. Even someone who knows nothing about electricity ought to be able to work out that speaker wire looks very different to the wiring installed in houses and conclude that using speaker wire isn't the way to do the job properly. 
That so many are willing to go ahead and do things in a way that's obviousy not right does suggest they aren't really too worried about safety. No amount of knowledge on how it should be done is going to help if they're no interested in hearing it.

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## 2x4

At least the job is getting done :Rolleyes:  
Not an aussie photo. But rediculous none the less.

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## pharmaboy2

> Or look at how many people are willing to risk their life messing about with asbestos rather than calling in a licensed removalist who (hopefully) knows what they're doing.

  Perhaps its the nanny state of legislated protection that makes people think all of its a crock.  The example of asbestos is significant. Free asbestos product have been clearly linked to mortality and are dangerous - however, the bonded small amounts in sheet have almost no safety concerns except for the odd tradesmen who used to work in closed in spaces with power cutters and no water cooling.  Just about every construction tradesman over 40 has had quite significant exposure to std sheet, and they arent dropping like flies - probably because 99% of the stuff in housing is thin sheet cut with hand shears (ignoring the sparkies for a moment). 
in a nutshell, removing sheet, and disposing of it, is not risking your life - I was aware in 90's of the stuff, how and why it was dangerous, and worked on numerous jobs - cutting it witha  concrete saw in a closed room however is different.  Legislators dont understand the difference so cover their @@@@ with stupid overarching laws that cause more people to break them than obey them.

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## Doc0055

Why not have a course for DIY electrical, not talking about doing any wiring. Just the safe way of changing a powerpoint, light switch and light fitting.

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## Metung

Can't see what your concern is 2x4. The blokes got a bit of chipboard jammed in the guttering to stop him going over the edge and even if he does, there is a balcony a couple of floors down to stop him going all the way.  :Eek:

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## chrisp

> Why not have a course for DIY electrical, not talking about doing any wiring. Just the safe way of changing a powerpoint, light switch and light fitting.

  Oh, there is such as course and you can do it at most TAFE colleges. 
However, you can do the course, you can pass the exam, but you probably won't get a licence if you say you just want to do the odd bit of work (change a light fitting, switch, outlet) around your home! 
However, if you are a plumber, then that is okay - you can have a restricted licence. 
I haven't had anyone provide a satisfactory explanation as to why the licenses won't be granted to homeowners who have done and passed the course. 
Smells a bit like a closed shop doesn't it?

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## Smurf

> in a nutshell, removing sheet, and disposing of it, is not risking your life - I was aware in 90's of the stuff, how and why it was dangerous, and worked on numerous jobs - cutting it witha concrete saw in a closed room however is different. Legislators dont understand the difference so cover their @@@@ with stupid overarching laws that cause more people to break them than obey them.

  I've been aware of it for years. Done the course (though I never intended getting a license). You're right, it's not as bad as many think, but when you see people using power saws on the stuff, well let's just say I wasn't going to stay around.

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## nev25

> Oh, there is such as course and you can do it at most TAFE colleges.

  Certainly is
See http://www.esv.vic.gov.au/ForElectri...8/Default.aspx    *Disconnect/Reconnect Worker's License*  
The Disconnect/Reconnect Worker's License entitles you to carry out low voltage electrical installation work relating to equipment, that is connected to a fixed electrical installation, associated with your primary trade, vocation or calling (occupation) that would otherwise require the services of a registered electrical contractor or a licensed electrician. 
The Disconnect/Reconnect Workers License entitles the holder to carry out electrical installation work involving disconnection and reconnection of equipment as indicated on the license as follows:  Office equipmentDomestic equipmentPlumbing/gasfitting equipmentCommercial equipmentIndustrial equipmentRefrigeration and air conditioning equipmentInstrumentation/process control equipmentCommunication/computing equipmentLaboratory/scientific equipment.If you are planning to apply for a Disconnect/Reconnect Worker's License, you must be competent in a relevant field to which the disconnection and reconnection work required is a significant function of your job.    

> I haven't had anyone provide a satisfactory explanation as to why the licenses won't be granted to homeowners who have done and passed the course.

  Ring this number tomorrow (03) 9203 9700 and ask them 
They will explain it to you
Also ask them why Electricians cannot give Electrical wiring advice thy made the statement in the first place   

> . 
> Smells a bit like a closed shop doesn't it?

  Maybe so bit like no one can tell me why an Electrician cannot do a Air conditioner installation course
Have to have Permission from the Plumbers board to even applied to do the course   

> . You're right, it's not as bad as many think,.

  Interestingly enough I has a fellow come and give me a quote to remove some Asbestos at my house
I asked him if it was Asbestos we where looking at
He broke a bit off held it up to the light and said YEP its asbestos PUT IT IN HIS POCKET and walked off and said give me a call if you want me to remove it

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## Bros

I can't legally do electrical wiring in my own house even though I am a licensed electrical worker.

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## nev25

> I can't legally do electrical wiring in my own house even though I am a licensed electrical worker.

  What Class/Grade License do you have??

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## Bros

> What Class/Grade License do you have??

  
To the best of my knowledge there is no Class/Grade in Queensland only one grade Electrical Fitter and Electrical Mechanic.

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## AIRMAN

> Maybe so bit like no one can tell me why an Electrician cannot do a Air conditioner installation course

  
There is actually a licence that ARC, who are the governing body for air conditioning and refrigeration, introduced specifically for sparkys but it is a avalible for anyone, the course to get a certificate 2 in air conditioning split systems is just a 2 days course that costs around $500 here in Brisbane, you can even do it via correspondence, after that pay $180 for a 2 year licence and off you go legally installing splits   :Shock:  
<table bgcolor="#2ac0f9" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="padding: 5px 5px 0px;" align="left" bgcolor="#f7f7f7" valign="top" width="19%" height="60">*Restricted Split System
            Air conditioning Installation and             Decommissioning Licence*
            (2 years)</td>             <td style="padding: 5px 5px 0px;" align="left" bgcolor="#f7f7f7" valign="top" width="28%" height="60">To handle a refrigerant for the installation and decommissioning of a single head split system air conditioner of less than 18 kW cooling capacity.</td>             <td style="padding: 5px 5px 0px;" align="center" bgcolor="#f7f7f7" valign="top" width="36%" height="60">MEM20105 Certificate II in Engineering *; or
              MEM20198 Certificate II in Engineering Production - Air conditioning*; or
              UEE20107 Certificate II in Air conditioning Split Systems*; or
              UEE20106 Certificate II in Air conditioning Split Systems*; or
            40488SA Certificate II in Split Systems Air conditioning*; or</td></tr></tbody></table>

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## Ashore

I have a fridge licence and it was a dam sight harder to get that to do a six week course to be a lecco but the knowledge to be competent in the ac/fridge field is far more complex than being licenced as a lecco, maritime that is, which deals with power generation , voltages up to 3.3 kva , domestic and industerial distrubution and wiring, which the australian  government decided needed a 6 week course, and in the last 20 plus years no australian marine engineers heve ever been killed by their oun fault with electricity 
humm you gotta wonder why the leccos are so keen to keep it all a closed shop  :Rolleyes:

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## nev25

Thanks Airman 
I'm wondering how that Qualification sit in Vic
as duel trade (Especially between electrical and plumbing) is outlawed in Vic 
Ill look into that in the new year

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## AIRMAN

A lot of sparky's have them up here, as there is no restricted ticket that a fridgy can get that would allow them to do the electrical side so they always had to get in a sparkys who would charge an arm and a leg, so they brought out this ticket for sparkys so they could do the whole job. It does raise some interesting issus with QBSA (our building aurthority) as you would still legally need a BSA license in a/c and refridgeration (which requires a full qualification) if the job is going to cost over $1000 + gst but this includes materials, even if supplied by the customer, most installs are below this and if above guys will put it on two invoices. All this licence allows you to do is handle and buy refrigerant, it's still up to your local state body to determine if you can carry out the work.

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## spartan

I used to work in Electrical Safety Office in Queensland....I can tell you how many home owners were prosecuted for doing their own electrical work......zip....zero...nadda..... 
The main focus on the act(s) is people holding out to do paid work as qualified electricians who have no such qualifications. 
The home owner not being able to do their own electrical work is 100% about protecting tradesman's back yards..... this is underpinned by the ETU.....and started as an attempt to kept foreign trained immigrants out of the local sparkies patch.... 
Its easier to be a foreign trained surgeon and get your islmabad quals recognised. 
In the case mentioned I would be sure that the ESV would be interested.....if you were trying to report a home owner....they would be a lot less interested.....

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## Bros

> The home owner not being able to do their own electrical work is 100% about protecting tradesman's back yards..... this is underpinned by the ETU.....and started as an attempt to kept foreign trained immigrants out of the local sparkies patch...

  
I don't believe that is quite right. You have to go back to 1985 with the SEQEB dispute where Bjelke Petersen wanted to smash the unions. To get the normal work done he had to have contractors available and he ended up doing anything that thay wanted to acheive his aims. You can blame the Electrical Contractors Association for it not the ETU.

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