# Forum Home Renovation Structural Renovation  Stud wall - Does size matter?

## __dopey__

Hi,  
I am renovating an old timber framed church in Tasmania and want to put up a few* non load bearing* internal walls to partition off a couple of bedrooms and a bathroom.  
The ceiling is sloped and at its highest point is 3.1metres high, at the lowest about 2.4metres.   
From everything I have read it is hard to tell if I should be using   90x45   or   90x35   or   75x45   or   75x35.  
I was planning on spacing the studs 600 apart, but this can change to 450 if needed to suit the smaller sizes.  
If possible I would like to use   75x35   but need to ensure it meets the corect standards.   
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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## r3nov8or

A quick read of span tables - 
With MGP10 at 600 spacings you can go to 3000 with 70x35, and above 3000 use 2/70x45. At 450 spacings you could use 2/70x35 above 3000. 
With MGP12 at 600 spacings you can go to 3000 with 70x35, and above 3000 use 2/70x35. At 450 spacings you could use 2/70x35 or 70x45 above  3000.

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## shauck

What's your roof load width?

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## r3nov8or

I thought the same thing, but from the description the walls will be retrofit and will be doing nothing to hold the roof up.

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## __dopey__

Hi guys,  
thanks for the replies 
The building is 15metres x 9 metres with the roof fully supported already without any internal walls. The pitch of the roof is only slight and I am not sure exactly what it is. Hope this helps with the load question.  
Sorry if this sounds dumb but what does 2/70x35 mean...why the 2/ in front?

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## __dopey__

Just thinking about my last question, I assume u mean 2 studs(of the size mentioned) together at each 450 or 600 interval for any going above 3000.

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## r3nov8or

> Just thinking about my last question, I assume u mean 2 studs(of the size mentioned) together at each 450 or 600 interval for any going above 3000.

  Yeah, so 2 of 70x35 effectively creates a 70x70. You need to nail-laminate the pieces. The method attached is for beams/joists but the concept applies to studs too.

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## manofaus

reads like a good conversion project.
With a non load bearing wall you can use your 70x35 at 600cts, but I would definetly reduce that to 450cts to reduce your flex in the partition. No need for lintels over the doors either. Go for a 90x35 top and bottom plate. Does the roof have exposed rafters? I am sure I have seen a conversion like that where all the walls were kept at 2400 or what ever to still show off the roof design with out obstruction.
You should post a pic and do a drawing to show us what you have planned, sounds very interesting

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## ringtail

Because they are just partition walls, 70 x 35 is fine @ 450 ctrs. Use 2 rows of noggins.

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## __dopey__

Thanks for the all the replies, they have been a great help.  
I've attached a pic so you get an idea of what the inside looks like. I was in the process of removing all the internal lining when it was taken.  
thanks again

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## Bloss

> Because they are just partition walls, 70 x 35 is fine @ 450 ctrs. Use 2 rows of noggins.

   :What he said:

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## Gaza

I would use 64mm metal stud  
With noggins

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## r3nov8or

> Because they are just partition walls, 70 x 35 is fine @ 450 ctrs. Use 2 rows of noggins.

  Then why not 600 centres per span tables?

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## __dopey__

> Go for a 90x35 top and bottom plate.

  Just checking, do I need to use 90x35  for the top and bottom plate or would 70x35 be enough to meet the standard required?

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## Pulse

The plates need to be the same width as the studs unless you are planning something fancy like staggered studs (not needed in this application) Maybe it was a typo. The other tip is to get a nail gun. 
Cheers
Pulse

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## shauck

> Because they are just partition walls, 70 x 35 is fine @ 450 ctrs. Use 2 rows of noggins.

  I agree

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## ringtail

> Then why not 600 centres per span tables?

  
450 is better for hanging gyprock IMO and for the sake of a few extra studs why not. :Biggrin:

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## __dopey__

Thanks again guys.....I have purchased a nail gun, just hoping I dont hurt anyone with it!!! 
Do they take long to get used to, its a paslode framemaster.. I think I need to use 75mm nails as a minimum?

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## Bloss

> 450 is better for hanging gyprock IMO and for the sake of a few extra studs why not.

   :Wat they said:  And as Gaza says although steel framing is common and a good choice many DIYers are not as comfortable using it as they are with timber.

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## r3nov8or

Go 600 centres. You know you want to.  :Tongue:

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## ringtail

> Thanks again guys.....I have purchased a nail gun, just hoping I dont hurt anyone with it!!! 
> Do they take long to get used to, its a paslode framemaster.. I think I need to use 75mm nails as a minimum?

  
Nice gun as your first. A lot just go for crappy bunnings special. Yep go for 75 mm nails. Some things to note  
1. If you laminate two studs together, the nail will hang out the other side so shooting at a slight angle will keep the pointy bit where it should be, in the timber, instead of hanging out like a meat hook
2.* If making your frame up on the ground*, bring the stud up to the top or bottom plate on your marks. Put your boot ( yes boot) on the stud a good 6 inches away. Hold the gun steady and watch the angle so the nail doesn't shoot out the side of the stud. Never hold the stud with your hand ( not yet anyway :Biggrin: ) but if you do, use common sense and keep your hand far enough away (200 mm).
3. Use a square to mark the top and bottom plate and make sure your stud is on the line ( not twisted) before shooting.
4.Always check the stud for the bow ( yes it will have one) and *mark the high side with a X*. *Make sure all the X's face the same way in the wall.* It doesn't matter if the studs have a bow as long as all of them go the same way its all good.
5. If making the wall up in situ, secure the bottom plate after marking out.( Measure 450 and put a mark and then a X. Then pull the tape out to 900, put a mark then a X  so you have 450 and on, 900 and on etc.......)* The X is where the stud goes*.(You mark out both top and bottom plates like this, clamped together for both framing methods)
6. Now comes the tricky bit for the newbie. Skew nailing. On your mark ( squared line) get 2 framing nails and hand nail them in about 10 mm. Bring the stud up to the nails and shoot from the other side ( against the nails. The nails will hold the stud pretty much spot on in the right spot. *( never use your boot to hold the stud )* Shoot 2 nails, each one about 15 mm in from the stud edge. The angle is trail and error but try and visualise where the nail will go. Shoot too low and the nail will be towards the bottom of the stud too much. Shoot too high and  the nail might come out the other side of the stud and not go into the bottom plate. Practice on scrap. After getting 2 nails in from one side, turn the gun around and shoot 1 nail from the other side in the middle of the stud.
7. To do the top, Plumb up the studs ( they may not fall exactly on your marks) and repeat the shooting procedure you used on the bottom. A bit harder but the theory is the same.
8. If framing in situ, dont make the studs too tight a fit or they will bow sideways excessively.
9. Noggings - Measure from the floor up 1200 ish mm on both ends of the wall and flick a string line. One nog goes above, the next one goes below ( so you can shoot through the stud into the nog). *Start at the end away from any openings ( doors, windows).* Again, keep your hands well out of the way. You can use a clamp to hold the nog while nailing and this will also make sure the nog is perfectly in line with the stud. Time consuming yes, safe yes, good job yes but not done but many as speed counts. When you get good you can do away such things :Biggrin: .
10. To get the size of the noggings, measure at the bottom of the studs ( on the bottom plate). Provided your studs are plumb and not too tight, the nogs will take the sideways bows out. When you get to the end of the wall or where the is a door way, get a straight edge and put it against the stud. This will show you which way the centre of the stud has to move to make it perfect.
11*. Finally, never, ever shoot through or next to a knot*. The nails can do very odd things if you do and its not uncommon for the nail to do a 180 and get you.  
Lesson over, practice, practice, practice

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## shauck

> I thought the same thing, but from the description the walls will be retrofit and will be doing nothing to hold the roof up.

   :Doh:

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## shauck

> Thanks again guys.....I have purchased a nail gun, just hoping I dont hurt anyone with it!!! 
> Do they take long to get used to, its a paslode framemaster.. I think I need to use 75mm nails as a minimum?

  They take a bit to get the hang of. They will work on certain angles (acute) and not on others (obtuse). Practice nailing scrap material for a bit till you get it. 
When selecting studs, choose the straightest for the ends of the walls as you will not be able to get an electric planer into a corner. Also choose straightest timber for top plate and bottom plate, especially top plate. 
As you are making rake walls, I would use a CAD drawing program to make a scale drawing, if you have one. Then you will have all the individual stud measurements as well as the slightly different stud spacings for the top plate as they won't be exactly the same as the bottom plate and you'll have the top plate length. Then you can put it together on the ground and feel confident it will fit. Just be aware that an exact measurement will give you an overall few mm higher wall in reality as you will have tiny space between each timber connection.

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## Uncle Bob

> As you are making rake walls, I would use a CAD drawing program to make a scale drawing, if you have one. Then you will have all the individual stud measurements as well as the slightly different stud spacings for the top plate as they won't be exactly the same as the bottom plate and you'll have the top plate length. Then you can put it together on the ground and feel confident it will fit. Just be aware that an exact measurement will give you an overall few mm higher wall in reality as you will have tiny space between each timber connection.

  Good advice this. Even Google sketchup (free  :Smilie:  ) works well, but like all CAD programs takes a little learning. If you use sketchup, check out the intro videos to get you started.

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## manofaus

im a retard, 70x35 top and bottom plates.

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## shauck

> Good advice this. Even Google sketchup (free  ) works well, but like all CAD programs takes a little learning. If you use sketchup, check out the intro videos to get you started.

  Definitely takes a bit to get the hang of them and they can be fiddly sometimes. It seems like you're wasting time but really, it's peace of mind when time comes to cut timber. Much more convenient than full or even half scale drawing.

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## __dopey__

> reads like a good conversion project.
>  No need for lintels over the doors either.

  Thanks again guys, you have all been really helpful, sorry more questions tho.  
I want to put in some walkways, u know like doorways only without the doors, that will be 2100 x 2100. With the frame height up to 3100 high do I need to do anything special in regards to lintels etc?  
I assume this wont have an impact on me using 70 x 35 studs etc.

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## Bloss

No - simply have a nogging (cross piece of timber) at the correct height.

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## sundancewfs

My bit of input is to decide what you want the rooms formed by these walls to be. Do you need any sound insulation in them? If so the size of the timbers/metal will limit what you can put in the wall cavity. Also whatever timber you choose, I am assuming you are going to plasterboard them. With that in mind, before you go whacking together frames out of whatever timber, do a bit of research on how to straightening walls in preparation for plastering. How you nail things together at the start will determine whether or not this is a straightforward job with a planer and packers or a nightmare of chipped planer blades and swearing......  :Blush7:

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## __dopey__

With most of the walls I am building being more then 2.4m high, do I measure 1.2m up from the ground for the first noggin and then up another 1.2 m for the next? Or can I space them more evenly across the frame?

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## Bedford

You can space them to a max of 1350mm if that helps. :Smilie:

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## Bloss

> You can space them to a max of 1350mm if that helps.

  With suitable sized sheeting to match . . .

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