# Forum Home Renovation Tools & Products  10" Slide Compund Saw Opinion's

## METRIX

Were in the market for some new 10" SCMS. 
Currently have 2 x Makita's less than 2 years old and these are being deployed elsewhere (garbage bin probably), Makita is not an option due to reliability problems with current saws. 
Have narrowed it down to the following, and would like any feedback on the below saws.  *Bosch GCM 10SD* GCM 10 SD Double Bevel Sliding Mitre Saw Double Bevel Sliding Mitre Saws Bench-mounted Tools | Professional power tools for trade & industry 
I was impressed with the build quality, made in Taiwan which is fine, it all seems very tight, handle adjustable horizontal or vertical, 1800W motor and fast 5000rpm, integrated table extensions, soft start, belt drive, although it does weigh 28Kg !!! 
Overall could not fault this saw for build quality, only thing it does have a lot of levers, dials etc, and worried about these getting broken on site, and have read there was a problem with a bearing which wears for the blade guard causing it to jam, and don't want to go there as it was one of the biggest bug bears of the Makita's, but this was dated many years ago so not sure how relevant this is to the latest model. 
One minus it has a 30mm arbor, which presents a problem for blade choice, we like to use the Freud Diablo blades and they don't come in 30mm, I know you can get the hole enlarged, but would rather not have to.  *Hitachi C10FSH* Hitachi Power Tools Australia 
This is the NON Alien style saw, Quality of build faultless, Made in Japan (shock horror a tool made in Japan), 90mm depth cuts, Belt Driven, soft start, electronic speed control, 5/8th arbor so blade selection easy. 
Could not fault this saw at all, except it does have a smaller table than the others but it will be used with saw stand so not an issue, it also weighs 9kg less than the Bosch, has simple strong levers for adjustments, Bosch one seemed a bit finicky, does not have table extensions built in, this is basically a no nonsense saw, designed to do the job without all the fidgety things.    *Metabo KGS 254 Plus* Product catalogue halfstationary and stationary tools - Products - Metabo Australia - Power tools built by professionals for professionals 
Specs wise this looks the goods, Made in Germany, variable speed 2000W motor, 90mm depth cut, excellent dust extraction, integrated table extensions, 3 year warranty, tool less blade change, but has a 30mm arbor  :Annoyed:  
Only problem it is hard to actually find anyone who stocks them, besides online vendors, and have seen an alleged problem online of the table locking positions there is some play when locked, which I find unusual for a German tool to have a problem such as this.  
The Hitachi does have the smallest motor 1450W, but cant seem to find any bad reviews of this saw, we do have a 12" older version of this saw, and it has been faultless, Metabo is the most expensive but does have the longest warranty, and if our existing Metabo stock is anything to go by, warranty won't be required. 
Milwalkee, Dewalt and other brands are made in China, so won't consider them.

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## TheHammer

You can bush the 30mm. Many of the 12" blades are bushed from 1" to fit the 5/8" arbor on the saw.

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## Bloss

I'd go with the Hitachi. I've used Metabo and it is good gear, but quirky and when you do need parts not easy to get. Bosch too is OK, but and extra 9kg and the odd arbor would take that out for me. Festool is great gear, but 'gold plated' pricing Festool KAPEX KS 88 Sliding compound mitre saw

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## TheHammer

> You can bush the 30mm. Many of the 12" blades are bushed from 1" to fit the 5/8" arbor on the saw.

  Sorry, this would only work if they are already bushing the 30mm down with an internal bushing rather than an integrated bushing/washer. Obviously you need to look at the saw to determine the type.

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## METRIX

> I'd go with the Hitachi. I've used Metabo and it is good gear, but quirky and when you do need parts not easy to get. Bosch too is OK, but and extra 9kg and the odd arbor would take that out for me. Festool is great gear, but 'gold plated' pricing Festool KAPEX KS 88 Sliding compound mitre saw

  This is my thinking as well, I just cannot fault the Hitachi, and looking at all their other SCMS they are all going Alien style and Chinese like most other brands, so this may be the last of the Japanese made saws we see. 
The Metabo worries me with it's tool less blade change (same system as their grinders), I would prefer a simple bolt, not much can go wrong with it, plus the blades have 3 holes drilled in them, a 30mm arbor and two smaller holes which look like they lock into two pins. 
I don't have a problem with manufacturers going Chinese, but they really need to ensure the product is built for the purpose it was originally intended for, SCMS are traditionally a workshop or onsite tool and should be built for that purpose. 
Sure cater for the low end market end user who doesn't want to spend more then $300, but they still need to make top end robust units suitable for site use, and can take a bit of mis treatment, obviously these will cost more, but when you rely on these machines for your living, you can't afford the reliability to be sacrificed.

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## METRIX

> Sorry, this would only work if they are already bushing the 30mm down with an internal bushing rather than an integrated bushing/washer. Obviously you need to look at the saw to determine the type.

  Unfortunately the arbor is 30mm and not bushed up, so you need a 30mm blade. 
The Metabo appears to have two additional pins next to the arbor, I assume this is to do with the quick tool less mounting system, similar to Festool, their arbor is 30mm with little pins around it like Fein tools, so they keep you buying their blades, but at $250+ a pop for a Kapex blade this is not worth it when you damage one.

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## Kyle

I'm dissapointed but sort of happy to hear the newer Mak SCMS's are not that flash.  I loved my mates Japanese 12" saw and was lined up to get one last year, then Total Tools were running out the previous model 12" Metabo for $499!  Bargin and a brillant saw to boot, the only flaw I can pick is the flimsy depth stop. 
Also sitting in the shed is a 20+ year old Hitachi 8".  Noisy, guard is crap, but it still cuts 100% true even after years of cutting ali sections on building sites.
The down side with with Hitachi's is the deck is small, deck size on 8, 10 & 12" saws are all the same. 
Never been a fan of Bosch saws, but a close call on the other 2.  I'd personally lean to the Metabo for the deck, bigger motor and warranty.

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## grantbudd

I know we all want a reliable tool but given the issue you have with the 30mm arbor have you costed up how many blades you go through over 12 months x 2 for the 2 saws plus the cost of the 2 makita saws vs 2 higher spec saws and the increased cost of the newer blades x 2 you will now have to purchase over the same time period? Could be up in the 1000's? 
Kind of like the nasty ozito stuff, you buy it to destroy it but long term prospects of tool life are not good... warranty too thats something I always look into if buying from a shop... 
I have a mix of hitachi dewalt and metabo in tools and the metabo is built to last (sds hammer drill) I love to use this although not much call for such a heavy duty bit of kit in the queenslander. dewalt and all 18v stuff so not super charged high volt gear but all great....Hitachi a 240v 3rd sheet sander died 2 times though...

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## TonyB

What are the +/- of the Hitachi being belt drive? My instinct would be that the belt would break at an inconvenient moment.

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## Kyle

> What are the +/- of the Hitachi being belt drive? My instinct would be that the belt would break at an inconvenient moment.

  All 3 are belt drive induction motors, soft start and alot quiter.  I've never seen a belt give way on any building sites in 18 years, not to say it doesn't happen, but uncommon.

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## METRIX

The positives of the belt drive is that if there is some major failure the belt is designed to strip instead of destroying the motor, plus it allows the motor to be placed at the back of the machine therefore not interfering when doing mitered cuts.  
The negative is it will need replacing some day, but having a previous Hitachi Belt drive, this is never been a problem, the saw is many years old and has done some hard work, and the belt is still original, I guess its a testament to how well designed they are, so I don't have any issues with Belt Drive. 
Metabo, Bosch and DeWalt have also adopted the belt drive system, Makita and Milwalkee stick with direct drive.

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## METRIX

Metabo has a 254i Plus, the i stands for induction, the three models here are all standard type motors.

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## manofaus

hope you guys realise that the makita make two 10' saws. the cheapie is what they are referring to the makita 1018l (260mm)is the handyman saw and the ls1016l (255mm) is the better tradesperson saw.

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## METRIX

Yeap, Realize that, It is the 1016 that we currently have which are to be replaced.

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## METRIX

> Kind of like the nasty ozito stuff, you buy it to destroy it but long term prospects of tool life are not good... warranty too thats something I always look into if buying from a shop...

  Unfortunately the throw away society we live in today is what has caused the big manufacturers to drop their quality and ship offshore.
With all the cheap brands out there, the big manufacturers also wanted to cash in on this market, and it has affected their standards and brand loyalty. 
I remember when every tradie would never consider buying anything other than Makita, this has all changed now, other manufacturers have better quality products, better design and longevity.  
Big problem with the cheapie brands is they copy the big brands, ie; open them up and say we can make this , and they do, but not to the same quality, a Japanese or German tool is Engineered to do a certain job, manufacturing tolerances are tight, components are hardened to withstand constant use and over engineered so they can take constant punishment. 
A chinese cheap copy is just that "a copy" the components have had no thought into their long term reliability, tolerances are slack, plastics are cheap and break, batteries are weak, this is why they fail so quickly, then we just throw them away and buy another, absolute waste of money and landfill space if you ask me. 
My Dad's tools were all German or English (back in the days when English tools were good) and he taught me to buy the best you can afford, as they should last you a lifetime (not always), but sometimes this didn't go to plan, hence the reason for sourcing replacement 10" SCMS. 
One of my German mates was horrified when Metabo started manufacturing in China, he thought it was the end of the world  :Shock:  and said it's the end of them, well they are still going but a lot of their tools have bad reviews on various websites now, which is a shame as they were always looked upon as one of the top brands. 
If FESTOOL ever ship to China manufacturing then we know things are in a bad way.

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## manofaus

my 1216 says its made in japan too. oh well.....

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## Kyle

> Metabo has a 254i Plus, the i stands for induction, the three models here are all standard type motors.

  There you go.  I just assumed all the belt drive models were induction motors :Doh:      

> Unfortunately the throw away society we live in today is what has caused the big manufacturers to drop their quality and ship offshore.
> With all the cheap brands out there, the big manufacturers also wanted to cash in on this market, and it has affected their standards and brand loyalty. 
> I remember when every tradie would never consider buying anything other than Makita,

  You can add Stanley in that catagory too.  70% of the stuff Stanley produce now is junk. 
A mate in the tool game told me Makita dropped their wholesale price by 30% some 18 months ago to stay competitive with the cheaper brands.  That 30% has to be absorbed somewhere... in the factory!
Not to mention Makita's keenness to stay on the shelves of large hardware chains.  Go to Bunnings and you will find alot of Makita products/packaging that are exclusive to Bunnings.

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## SilentButDeadly

> You can add Stanley in that catagory too.  70% of the stuff Stanley produce now is junk.

  I'd reckon it's a higher percentage than that. I just binned a Stanley soft grip PH2 screwdriver after just three months use...blade got turned faster than a throwaway driver bit from a cheapie store. 
As for the saw...Hitachi.

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## David.Elliott

I'm 52 this year. 
I still have a Stanley screwdriver set in the black carry case I bought when I was about 22. Yep! they're all still there. The one that has seen the most renovating use has had to have the tip filed back on once or twice. You know the one, the medium size flat blade that fits the screws on door hinges. They're always fun...
I remember paying about $25.00/29.00 ish when I bought it.
Today, what is ostensibly the same kit, is around 19.95 at the green shed on special. 
There is no way on God's earth that the quality can be the same. Everything else has probably tripled (or more) in price in those 30 years, but these screwdrivers have come down. I think not...at least not for the same product. 
So who has the oldest hand tool?  
I'll kick off with a monkey wrench with a Ford logo and a "T" on it. 
The WA old tool guys believe it may be from a tool kit of a Model T Ford!

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## Kyle

> I'm 52 this year. 
> I still have a Stanley screwdriver set in the black carry case I bought when I was about 22. Yep! they're all still there. The one that has seen the most renovating use has had to have the tip filed back on once or twice. You know the one, the medium size flat blade that fits the screws on door hinges. They're always fun...
> I remember paying about $25.00/29.00 ish when I bought it.
> Today, what is ostensibly the same kit, is around 19.95 at the green shed on special. 
> There is no way on God's earth that the quality can be the same. Everything else has probably tripled (or more) in price in those 30 years, but these screwdrivers have come down. I think not...at least not for the same product. 
> So who has the oldest hand tool?  
> I'll kick off with a monkey wrench with a Ford logo and a "T" on it. 
> The WA old tool guys believe it may be from a tool kit of a Model T Ford!

  I've still got a few of the Stanley screwdrivers I brought 18 years ago as an apprentice.  They are poles apart from the junk ones i brought last year. 
Ford monkey wrench...  I've got 2, plus a Ford socket set.  The wrenchs are from my Pa's parents T & A model Fords.  The socket set Pa aquired during the war while serving as a heavy transport mechanic.  Still got most of his tools stored in an old ammo box, most are home made too (brake and clutch adjusting tools), plus his old diesel workshop manuals dated in the 30's.  Also got a set of slip joint pliers embosed with 'Matchless'.  They came from his 39 Matchless 390 motorbike.  I treasure this stuff more than my tools.

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## METRIX

Some disappointing news to add to this thread, I was all ready to purchase the Hitachi, and then the box came out, instead of it being the same as the display model which was a C10FSH, it is now a C10FSB, I assume the B stands for Better, or is that Broken or possibly Bulldust ?? 
And guess what, the Better model it is now made in China  :Annoyed: , the guy in the shop was also dissapointed, and he said since the major brands have shipped their SCMS to China they have noticed a big increase of returns for warranty.
I thought I would have a look anyway, and it seemed good quality, couldn't tell the difference between it and the Japanese display model (except the display model was missing a few bits people had stolen from it)  
NOW HANG ON, I remember having these same thoughts when purchasing the original Makita's,  :Shock:  :Shock:  :Shock: , Not going there again, so the Hitachi is now off the list, damn shame as I thought I had this one sorted. 
So I had a closer look at the BOSCH and this one does seem to tick all the boxes, all the levers I originally thought were plastic are actually metal, except for the little bevel dial, it has Belt Drive, Most powerful motor, electronic speed control, electric brake, laser, cast numbers on the base [not a sticker or screw down plate like others], adjustable handle, hidden tool storage, inbuilt table extenders, very high fences [which I assume is more to do with the US market as they go on so much about cutting crown moldings and this saw is popular in the US], and it felt very sturdy, and build quality was faultless. 
Plus the 30mm Arbor issue, is not any more, I happened to go past the new HUGE Bunnings in Castle Hill [and I mean huge] and they are now stocking Italian made Diablo blades with 30mm Arbor, but interestingly the online user manual has 6 different versions of this saw, there is a 537 model, and Bosch AU website has the model as B22 537, this model has the more standard 25.4mm arbor.  
The only issue I could find online re this saw was from many years ago, and it was to do with the bearing that guides the blade guard down, this now seems to be an Allen key replaceable external bearing, so I assume they either fixed the problem, or moved it to an easier place to get to when it fails ? 
 Now to try and find a stockist of the Metabo, this one is proving hard to find, as nobody appears to have them for some reason ?

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## METRIX

> I'm 52 this year. 
> I still have a Stanley screwdriver set in the black carry case I bought when I was about 22. Yep! they're all still there. The one that has seen the most renovating use has had to have the tip filed back on once or twice. You know the one, the medium size flat blade that fits the screws on door hinges. They're always fun...
> I remember paying about $25.00/29.00 ish when I bought it.
> Today, what is ostensibly the same kit, is around 19.95 at the green shed on special. 
> There is no way on God's earth that the quality can be the same. Everything else has probably tripled (or more) in price in those 30 years, but these screwdrivers have come down. I think not...at least not for the same product. 
> So who has the oldest hand tool?  
> I'll kick off with a monkey wrench with a Ford logo and a "T" on it. 
> The WA old tool guys believe it may be from a tool kit of a Model T Ford!

  Like most tools, built to price these days, break it, throw it away and buy another, they want you to break them as your 30 year old screwdrivers isn't going to pay the bills at Stanley for long, when they only see you once in a lifetime.

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## Kyle

> Now to try and find a stockist of the Metabo, this one is proving hard to find, as nobody appears to have them for some reason ?

  Vek tools?  I've seen Metabo stuff on their website before.

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## Pitto

> Go to Bunnings and you will find alot of Makita products/packaging that are exclusive to Bunnings, *are junk*.

  fixed it for you. 
i would never buy Makita from Bunnings.  the MLT100 tablesaw and the 10" compound sliding mitresaw for $499 are Junk. They are not intended for trade use, just trying to compete against the Bosch Green range. 
Not a big fan of Hitachi or Metabo, so the Bosch Blue would be my pick. Metabo did make good hammer drills and they used to have an awesome 1/3 sheet sander before ROS became all the rage.  
forget Festool. I shelled out $1100.00 on the 1400 router just recently and i am not convinced of the extra $400.00 was worth it. I should have gone a Bosch or Makita, but was caught up in the sales pitch and hype that everyone thinks that Festool is king. 
 I have watched a lot of reviews on the Kapex and as much as it is a good saw, the reviewers did say it wasnt %100.00 perfect and that there were some design flaws that they need to look at. 
which models of the makita saw are you binning? just interested to know. 
GP

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## Gaza

so all this talk of saw decide to look at replacing my 216mm hitachi which has died a slow death we have a 12in dewalt slider that gets little use a couple of 12in stright drops which get the most use and a smaller silder this has worn out guard fallen off. 
i was thinking about this dewalt which is old elu  
but milwake have same one for 600 bucks, not sure if i want to buy another hitachi, 
what are your guys throughts this saw is for detailed and aluminium work only.

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## Kyle

> so all this talk of saw decide to look at replacing my 216mm hitachi which has died a slow death we have a 12in dewalt slider that gets little use a couple of 12in stright drops which get the most use and a smaller silder this has worn out guard fallen off. 
> i was thinking about this dewalt which is old elu  
> but milwake have same one for 600 bucks, not sure if i want to buy another hitachi, 
> what are your guys throughts this saw is for detailed and aluminium work only.

  
Not a bad saw, but not the same quality as the old Elu.  I'm in the commerical fitout game and cutting aluminium is what our saws do 90% of the time.  Our company has about 7 of these saws in our fleet. Ranging from old Elu's to the current model Dewalts.
These saws are popular because they are very compact (lugging tools though the city can be a pita), the metal guard can take a lot of hammering when small ali offcuts go flying and they are reasonably quite.  The slide action doesn't operate like other SCMS's and can feel arkward to use, especially if your left handed, the way the motor is mounted restricts cutting depth and there is no depth stop.  We scribe and fold the back of 1.6X100mm flat ali for stick on skirting, this is where the saw shows it's short falls.  You have to stick a block of timber on the fence to bring the ali further out and then with a very steady hand scribe about a 3rd of the way through.  I had one for a few years, but was more than happy to go back to my old 8" Hitachi.
Build quality is no where near the old Elu ones, but it's still a tough compact saw if you can live with it's short comings.  I couldn't.

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