# Forum Home Renovation Tiling  Leveling wall studs.... I'm going nuts.

## Gooner

I have been struggling for a while now trying to level a wall that I will be tiling from floor to ceiling. The old wall was only partially tiled, but now I am tiling the entire room with a "glossy" bathroom tile. With this type of tile I believe that if the wall is not perfectly leveled, it may show. 
I ripped out the old wall and plaster and now have the studs exposed. I have started by leveling (using a carpenter's plumb) the corner studs and packing the wall with masonite strips were required. I have been careful to pack it properly and chisel down the packing strips so I have a stud that is level to within 1-2mm along a 2 meter length.  
Unfortunately, the studs in between the corner studs are not only way out of level, (up to 12mm over a 2 meter distance) but also unaligned, such that if I run a string from one corner stud to the other, I can see that the studs in the middle can stick way out on the bottom, but not touch the string on the top. 
My question is, is there an easier method that people use to level walls? Are there any special tools to make life easier? I am having quite a hard time of it and it is taking a very long time. Even when I think I have made good progress, I then grab a long straight piece of wood and lay it against the wall diagonally from one corner to the other and notice there is still a stud sticking out about 5mm! 
I'm going nuts. 
Any advice?
What kind of surface irregularity can I get away with such that I can compensate with tile adhesive? 1-3mm? 
Thanks.

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## martrix

Ive never packed/leveled out studs on a wall before but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard. You need to level one plane first. I would say that you get all of the studs on the vertical plane (up and down :Rolleyes: ) level and straight first. Once this is done you could then just run a straight edge horizontally and pack out the entire length of each stud as required.

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## Claw Hama

I would put in new corner studs (nail to existing studs) that sit just prowd of all old wall studs then run a string line across the top and bottom of the wall from corner stud to corner stud. Install new studs that are trued into string lines, once again nailed to old studs. Now you have a whole wall of new flat straight studs. you may still have to pack the edge/corner old studs to nail or screw tight into the corner.
Hope this all makes sense. Good luck.

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## Gooner

Quick reponses... 
Claw, yeah this is the approach I was thinking of taking. It would mean that I would have to pack the middle studs up to 15mm in places. Will have to pack both corners evenly to make sure I maintain the squareness of the room. 
I think this is the only solution, but I ma not happy with having a wall this is so heavily packed! I will have to make sure the villaboard is secured properly.

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## Claw Hama

Gooner, nail the new studs to the side of the old studs so the new stud face is flat across the wall and you don't have to pack anything except the two corners.

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## Dirty Doogie

I second Claw's idea - some nice straight 70 x 45 pine!

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## Claw Hama

That's it.

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## Chipman

*New wall* 
Method 1  
Use a string line to get your top and bottom plates straight
Make sure the top plate is vertically above the bottom plate with a plumb line (or long level)
If you have all the bows in the studs the same way, preferably inwards, use a straight edge and mark vertically down the stud and use an electric plane to take it down to the line then put in your noggins. Use string lines across all the studs to check your progress. 
Method 2
Carpenters will nearly cut a stud through on an angle and pull it straight and then nail a scrap of stud across the join.  Once again, make sure all the studs have the bow the sam way...  preferrably inwards  *Existing wall* 
Method 1
Straightening an existing wall in a renovation with lining on the other side. 
by building a new wall inside the existing wall. 
Cut a notch the width of a new stud through the noggons next to the existing corner studs to a depth of about 70 mm (if existing studs are 100mm typical of older houses with hardwood studs) 60 mm if 90mm studs
Alternatively you may notch the nogons less and do a matching notch in your new studs (eg 35/40mm in each) 
Screw new studs next to your existing studs making sure newones are vertical are vertical. Frun string lines between these two new corner studs and install nogins directly onto the existing plates between the existing studs and makes sure there are inline with your strings. Screwing avoids damaging the plaster on the otherside of the wall from hammering (A nail gun would be ok too) Remember with old hardwood studs you will probably have to drill a pilot hole for the screw! 
Notch all the noggins in between and install your new studs (you don't have to do it next to existing studs and helps you avoid hitting nails with your saw). Run a string line along your nogin line and true up your new studs by pushing them into line and screwing/nailing them to the existing studs/noggins. Next install your new noggins.  
Finally pack out your old corner studs to be inline with your new wall.  I usually cut a strip of stud off and use an electric plane to get it to the correct size/slope.  Generally you wont need to pack out your old plates but you can do it if you want to.  
I did my bathroom this way. I tried packing out the studs but it was driving me nuts too and I just could never get it truly flat. 
Method 2
I believe that you can buy special metal strips/battens that you could cut and screw to the edges of your existing frame to get it flat and true and then screw your new lining to the metal (have seen it done with ceilings)
Someone else may be able to give you more info about this method. 
Good luck
Chipman

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## Gooner

Not a bad idea.. but don't like the idea of installing villaboard such that the edges in the corner have no support behind them. 
For now I have nailed up some extra packing. Perhaps I will consider nailing new studs to the side of the middle studs instead of packing them up 5-15mm. 
Anyone know a reasonable wall even-ness tolerance to try to achieve? E.g. 2-3mm unevenness across 2 meters?

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## Gooner

Thanks for the detail response Chipman... 
You method is certainly more work than I anticipated and I will try and avoid this method unless absolutely necessary!  :Smilie:  
It is still driving me nuts, but I may take a rest, have a beer, and tackle it again tomorrow. 
Why are things always harder than anticipated? 
(I wonder how mcuh it would cost to get a carpenter in to level it up..... hmmmmm)

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## Claw Hama

With method 2 you still have to get your studs pretty straight or you will still get waves in your metal furring chanels which means you still get waves in your wall.

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## Chipman

*If you plates are straight and plumb*, just nail new studs beside the ones that bow in and punch any nails and plane down the ones that bow out.   *If the the wall is in bad condition all over*, Apply Claw's idea. 
Do what I said in the corners by nailing in new studs besides the existing ones so that they are plumb and nail strips on the old studs to get them up to the same level as the new ones. 
Run a string line between them and work out how much you will have to notch out of each stud to get a clearance of 35mm back from the string so you can nail 70 x 35 on its flat across the studs. Do this at the bottom, top and next to the existing noggons. If you happen to overdo it, you can just pack it out again on the stud.  Get some studs and cut them up and nail them as vertical noggons between the rails you installed. Construction adhesive can help too. 
Ultimately it depends how bad your wall is.  
(My wall was really bad and I was installing heavy tiles and wanted a stronger wall and having a nice flat wall made tiling a breeze) 
Chipman :Smilie:

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## Gooner

I have continued trying to pack out my wall studs, but I have come to the conclusion that it is just way too difficult to get 100% right. I think I will now have to go down the road of putting in new studs. 
Of course after doing all this I need to make sure that the wall and door frames as well as the installed shower base is still OK after the walls have been levelled.  
I have spent so much time on this and now I think I am about to "throw away" about 20 hours of work. Bah....

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## Gooner

I have spent some time attaching new wall studs to the old ones. 
I should have done this from the beggining. So much easier and I can get it dead straight without too much trouble. 
F7 structural hardwood gets a little pricey though.....

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## fubar

if your anywhere near oakleigh try tile importers for the hardwood best prices ive found but you will need to go through packs for straightness

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## TermiMonster

Maybe you could use steel studs?  
TM

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## AndrewPatrol

Gooner, wtf are you using hardwood for ? If you are screwing them to the old studs or if the walls are only normal height then Pine is Fine. Just cos hardwood is probably there originally doesnt mean you have to use it again necessarily. Ask - thats what this forum is for. BTW ideally a perfectly flat surface is what you are after but as you have found its impractical, unless you start from absolute scratch, 2or 3 mm over a metre is plenty, just be a little careful with your tiles and use a 10 mm notched trowel for adhesive, that way it'll come out fine. 
What stage are you at now? also the only bit that has to be anywhere near square is where you put bath or shower base, wont "see" the other corners after. Even new houses are way out of whack sometimes.

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## Chipman

> I have spent some time attaching new wall studs to the old ones. 
> I should have done this from the beggining. So much easier and I can get it dead straight without too much trouble. 
> F7 structural hardwood gets a little pricey though.....

  
When I did my bathroom I started out trying to pack it out too but quickly decided to go to putting in new studs.... 
One question... Why are you going to the expense of putting new hardwood studs in the wall?  Pine works fine.  However, if you are working on the floor and you already have hardwood joists, you certainly wood need to use seasoned hardwood to put in new joists. 
Anyway, I hope it is all going well and you will be up to the linning stage soon. 
Chipman :Smilie:

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## Gooner

> Gooner, wtf are you using hardwood for ?

  Answer... I tend to always spend more on these kinds of jobs than I need to. 
When I tore down the walls I noticed that some of the hardwood studs were eaten away by borer. This lead me to read up about the little pests. I found that there are a few common borer that like softwood much better than hardwood. So... I decided to put up hardwood stud replacements. Probably unnecessary... I agree. But it looks like my area is prone to them so I went with the safer option. I will be using pine to put up new noggins and to line the top and the bottom edges against the ceiling and floor. 
I am still finishing off putting up the new studs. I am happy to see that the walls are now almost perfectly flat. Tiling should be a breeze.

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## ComboSquare

I did this job yesterday.  
Basically it's not that hard. If it's an existing wall and the studs are all over the place you can simply hold a straight edge between top and bottom plates next to each stud and determine whether it needs packing or planing. If planing just pencil along the straight edge onto the stud where it needs to be shaved down.  
If packing, ideally you will have some different thickness packers to hand. Insert the packer into the gaps and run it up or down the stud until it wont fit anymore and nail on the length of packer. (the gap between the straight edge you are holding and the stud itself). If there is still a remaining gap, switch to a thinner packer and repeat until that doesn't fit anymore. If there's still a gap, repeat again with a thinner packer until there's no space left (or a minor one).  
Once you get the hang of it it's not hard. I plastered the wall afterwards and then checked it with the level, plumb on!

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## Chipman

> I did this job yesterday.  
> Basically it's not that hard. If it's an existing wall and the studs are all over the place you can simply hold a straight edge between top and bottom plates next to each stud and determine whether it needs packing or planing. If planing just pencil along the straight edge onto the stud where it needs to be shaved down.  
> If packing, ideally you will have some different thickness packers to hand. Insert the packer into the gaps and run it up or down the stud until it wont fit anymore and nail on the length of packer. (the gap between the straight edge you are holding and the stud itself). If there is still a remaining gap, switch to a thinner packer and repeat until that doesn't fit anymore. If there's still a gap, repeat again with a thinner packer until there's no space left (or a minor one).  
> Once you get the hang of it it's not hard. I plastered the wall afterwards and then checked it with the level, plumb on!

  Hi Combo, 
What you say is right if the top plate is plumb vertically with the bottom plate and both are straight.   
Otherwise you have to resort to the kind of measures outlined in the earlier posts.  Example: One wall I was working on was leaning in 50mm (FIFTY mm) at one end and plumb at the other end. IE it had a severe twist in it. (was almost worth pulling it out and replacing it!) Must have been built by a blind man!!!!! 
Chipman

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## Gooner

I have finished the job, but now need to put up some horizontal supports for the villaborad along the ceiling line and floor line, as well as some noggins. 
I bought some pine for the job, but now I am wondering if I should have bought treated pine. 
What do you guys think. Is putting untreated pine in walls a good idea? (Mainly for the termite & borer threat)

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